Berman: I Do Not Hate TOS December 20, 2006
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Trek Franchise , trackback
In the latest issue of the official Star Trek Magazine, Trek’s long-time producer Rick Berman talks about the end of his era. SciFi Pulse has excepts from the article where Berman defends his tenure and discusses why the last Trek TV show (Enterprise) failed. Berman says that the rumors of his hating The Original Series (TOS) are not true, but that doesn’t mean he has seen all of it:
There was a feeling that Enterprise was going to be a show that was a precursor to The Original Series, and although I’ve read a lot of depictions of both Brannon and myself ‘hating’ the original series, that could not be farther from the truth. We were not obsessed by the original series. I can openly admit that I did not see all 79 episodes of the original series, or 80 if you include the various versions of the pilot, but it was something we respected and did our best to lead up to. But I think that was something that was unsettling for the fans.
Not to jump on the ‘bash Bermaga bandwagon’, but it is not unreasonable to expect the creators and producers of a TOS prequel to have at least seen all of TOS.
Berman draws the distinction between Enterprise’s characters and those of the TOS and TNG eras:
They weren’t from the distant future as much. And we felt we could have more of a contemporary television show and less of a show-taking place in the distant future, something a little different from the Roddenberry humans of the 23rd Century or even the 24th Century who were pretty flawless. From that point of view, these were the choices at the time that seemed very reasonable and I would probably do again. But it had pitfalls and maybe at times it became a bit too casual, and a bit too contemporary, and lost some of its science fiction flavour and some of its futuristic flavour that would make it a precursor to the original series. It certainly had its problems.
He also talks about Coto’s attempt to really make Enterprise into a prequel, but seems to dismiss his efforts as only appealing to the ‘hardcore’
Manny had a tremendous amount of excitement about the potential links between Enterprise and the first season of the original series, and he wanted to build those bridges, or at least create steps that would foreshadow some of the things that would happen in the original series. I think to the hardcore fans it was a terrific direction to go. On the other hand, the ratings continued to slip a bit. The problems that existed continued after the release of our final movie [Nemesis] did not help.
…and before he goes, one last jab at UPN for good measure
Looking back, the lack of support and the lack of interest people seemed to have in UPN didn’t help us, either. We were working on a network that, in a sense, was completely contradictory to the nature of the show. UPN had become a network of young women and girls and it was not a good marriage at that point.
This may be the last we hear from Mr. Berman. After overseeing the Trek franchise since the death of Gene Roddenberry in 1991 his tenure has come to an end. Berman’s contract with Paramount ends in about 2 weeks and Paramount have made it clear that he will not be involved in JJ Abrams Star Trek XI.
for more check out the latest issue of Star Trek Magazine (out in the UK, due in the US in a few weeks)
excerpts courtesey of SciFi Pulse
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Comments»
I certanly don’t agree with everything that Berman has done, but I think he deserves a great deal of credit for keeping the show alive and far more successful than Roddenberry was able to.
Thank you, Rick.
He sucks…..he ruined the franchise…..
He didnt keep the show alive he killed it by over saturating the market with Trek…and bad Trek at that. With a constant viewership decline since DS9 he did nothing to help out the franchise.
As I have stated before, Berman bashers ignore the many years he oversaw some great Trek (like the best years of TNG, DS9 and First Contact). But (especially in the last half of his tenure) mistakes were made, and he does seem to have difficulty acknowledging them.
Berman was a company man. He tried HIS best, but he was not the right person for the overall job of running the franchise. Starting with Star Trek: Generations, the house of cards began to fall. Voyager was serviceable, but perfunctory in its evolved TNG style and Enterprise was a flawed concept that did well in many respects, but was too little, too late at that point. At its height, you could have played Star Trek on the Lifetime network and fans would have shown up. And Nemesis’ failure was his fault. Berman’s excusess are pure rubbish.
With all the cheerful warmth of the holiday spirit, let me be the first to say f-you Rick Berman, you talentless hack. Your impostor versions of Star Trek have become as reviled flash in the pan failures as you are. Try as you and your lackeys might to turn Star Trek into a technobabel filled, asexual, neutered, socialist left wing, self important new age spiritual, dispassionate, zeolously politically correct, bland alagory, you have failed. Star Trek, the real Star Trek lives, it lives on this site each day, on xbox where a whole new generation of hollywood’s prime target audience has discovered how groovy Kirk and Spock are, it lives on the pages of Variety where even the tiniest piece of info on the new movie cause a stir across the web, it lives in the hearts of Exeter Studio who produced a superior product in their garage, It lives in Mr. William Shatner who has become an icon in hollywood (who you wanted to make the chef and couldn’t find the money to pay), it lives on aintitcool.com where Original Star Trek is as hot a topic of discussion as Lord of the Rings or Star Wars, it lives in the heart of Manny Coto who was given a load of your crap and asked to turn it to gold and despite the challange produced the only watchable episodes of your failed series, it lives in the heart of a hollywood superheavyweight and true fan of the original vision of Star Trek: Mr. J.J. Abrams, most importantly it lives in our hearts despite your attempts to prostitute and completely deviate from what we have always held dear. The legend of Kirk and Spock lives, 40 years later and grows each day. Rick Berman you piece of shat (heh heh) a-hole.
The excerpts from the interview with Rick Berman shows precisely why Star Trek fans turned on him. During his tenure with the 24th century shows, his overall ignorance of the Star Trek zeitgeist may not have been so important, but it was vital to whether or not Enterprise would have succeeded.
You don’t have to be obsessive about the original series, but if you are making a show set in that reality you must be BEHOLDEN to it. You can’t just discard things or make up new things that contradict what viewers already know about the Star Trek universe just because it suits you to do so. I don’t think Berman hated TOS, but he certainly didn’t seem to have a great deal of respect for it, and that as much as anything else, ultimately damned Enterprise.
Oh, that and he refused to even have the Star Trek banner in the Enterprise title banner at first. That was a bonehead move, pure and simple.
His backhanded compliment to Manny Coto is just another example of hius lack of respect. Coto tried his best to make Enterprise a real Star Trek show, and he should be lauded for that. The fact that ratings continued to slip isn’t Coto’s fault, it’s Berman’s for forcing 3 years of tenuous continuity into a timeline where it didn’t fit. That forced viwers away, and Coto’s attempt to fix things was too short lived for fans to find their way back. I honestly believe that had Enterprise been able to continue for another two years, Coto would have turned Enterprise into a show that Trek fans would have accepted and embraced again.
Perhaps now that Berman isn’t Trek’s gatekeeper any longer, he’ll find the time to watch TOS. Maybe he’ll gain some respect for what Roddenberry and the TOS cast and crew accomplished and remember why the show has millions of true, die hard fans who can watch episodes of a 40 year old TV show with new eyes each time. Maybe he’ll see what he got right and where he went wrong and he’ll learn something about what Trek really is.
Berman made some of the best Trek out there, but he also had a hand in nearly killing it. Hopefully time will give him some perspective on that.
Michael Piller, Ron Moore, Ira Steven Behr, and Manny Coto carried the water for Rick Berman. Don’t any of you fool yourself otherwise.
I really debated if I should even post this, but as I said this is his last interview as an employee of Paramount so it is a bit of an occasion. i know that bashing berman and namecalling him is up there with nitpicking as a favorite Trekkie passtime. But try and show the world that TrekMovie.com isn’t your typical Star Trek site.
critques are ok…but maybe a little restraint and perhaps some eloquence
just like I dont like to see personal flaming of other members, I dont like to see the type of vitriol in the number 5 post
so tone it down people
#8 Anthony
You’re right. I think a lot of us are emotional because we feel betrayed by Berman’s mishandling of the franchise. Was he 100% bad? Absolutely not, he knew to hire some good people during many years in his position. I personally never understood his fascination with multiple Data’s (he personally scripted “Brothers” which was a Brent Spiner-festival, and of couse, who can forget the oh so cleverly named B-4 in Nemesis!), but he was not some Satan-spawn launched to kill Star Trek. Left to his own devices, without Piller, Moore, and Behr, he made mistakes. Coto had a vision for Enterprise but at that point, Viacom had made their mind up that the series was a dud and the run would soon end.
I cannot fake kindness when it comes to Berman. He turned me against the show I loved for most of my life. I am extremely gratified that he is no longer associated with Star Trek.
Bye Rick. Thanks for nothing. And I mean that literally. Don’t let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.
I think UPN does/did deserve a HUGE amount of the blame!
I’m glad everyone knows it, I’m also glad Berman was very candid in saying he was proud of it but recognized the mistakes.
I will always be a big Berman fan. I enjoyed the final season of Enterprise, I LOVE TNG, but didn’t watch Voyager or DS9. I’ve appreciated SOME of DS9 in later years but still despise Voyager. The point being, that I like many stopped watching for a very long time once TNG stopped, even under Berman’s administration. But if you’ve ever watched an interview, I just think he’s an absolutely wholehearted, genuine, truthful person. I really appreciate his work on TNG and some of the TNG movies. I don’t blame him for Treks downfall though. He always worked his hardest when it was right or wrong. Complain about Braga if you want, I think he garnered too much power too fast — though I could be wrong — and didn’t have adequate respect for that which came before him. But I loathe seeing a man as genuine as Berman get this disrespect, not to mention hateful disrespect. He may no longer be the best man for the job and it’s one thing to call him on it. But to put forward this hateful speech as if he’s some dark demonic force, is arrogant, rude, disrespectful and completely unfair.
I appreciate this interview. I have appreciated him. I hope he can find prestige writing somewhere else.
He sucks…plain and simple.
Berman wanted William Shatner as a Chef?
This is my first post here…I ask that you don’t flame me. I am simply stating an opinion.
I have watched TOS probably close to 50 times each episode..spanning my life as a small child to now an adult. The show was the best Trek by far in terms of stories…at least Seasons 1 & 2 were. Freiberger’s horrible production did a wonderful job in killing the series after NBC forced it to 10pm Friday nights (forcing a stubborn and hurt Roddenberry to leave production) when all its fans were out partying. I wonder if Freigberger caught this kind of wrath in 1970? It wasn’t all his fault..NBC cut the budget in half too.
Anyway, I’ve watched all Trek since. TAS was excellent. TNG was good..some episodes were very good. Not as good as TOS but still, good. I missed Kirk…Data was a poor imitiation of Spock. Nevertheless, I took it for it was…a brand new show with new characters. I enjoyed it. DS9 was ok…moving Trek onto a stationary space station was kind of boring for me. The show ended strong however with the Dominion War. Entertaining in the end. Voyager to me was my favortie after TOS. Janeway was the most like Kirk that I had seen. Enterprise was actually very good in my opinion and I fail to see why everyone hates it. I was very sad when it was cancelled..the show was really starting to pick up. They did quite a good job in connecting the dots in the pre-Kirk era…especially int he last season. Did fans hate it because it was a prequel? If so, what is going to happen when another director (one famous for spy films and shows of all things) tries to actually recast Kirk and Spock..the most beloved characters on Trek ever?
My point is this…to those of you who seem to hate Berman and are thrilled at the idea of a new director…I feel you’re in for a major disappointment. Berman made some good shows..entertaining shows at that. Not all were good, but let’s face it…not all of TOS were good either. We laugh at Spock’s Brain all the time. Do you honestly believe there’s a Berman show out there worse than Spock’s Brain? If so, not by much. And Berman made a TON of shows…hundreds.
I feel we should give Berman a break..without him, there would be no debate of what’s good Trek and what isn’t. The franchise is not dead..he did not kill it. He simply was not good at making a movie. His TV shows were fine. It will be fine when the next movie comes out. But I have a bad feeling everyone who thinks Abrams is going to “save the franchise” by bringing back Kirk and Spock is (as McCoy would say) “in for one heill of disappointment.”
Stop expecting perfection…stop expecting TOS to show up on your TV again..or in the theaters again. It just won’t happen. Take the new shows and movies for that they are…brand new shows based on an old show.
That is all. I now return you to what is sure to be another jab at Berman and Braga. Have a great holiday everyone.
I think that photograph of him says more than anything we could ::chuckles::
Bye Bye Ricky boy, don’t let the airlock hit ya where the good Lord split ya fella.
Com’on Man (head shaking) It seems that it’s on this Trek site as well, do you guys that say “Berman Sucks” and “Berman ruined Trek” really think that he had the final word on Trek? Uhh! no! Paramount has alot to blame with what happened to Trek. Starting in 93-94 with Generations, DS9, and Voyager in the same year. You can only suck so much on the teet! Except for the money and challenge I would never want Bermans job.
No matter what happens in the future Paramount will always make money on Star Trek. The same people who bitch and nitpick about “canon” will always be there to watch and fork over the cash for “limited edition” Star Trek crap.
What happens if Abrams screws up his movie? They will try, try, and try……and try some more…….
It’s funny when some of you whine and cry like little girls with a skinned knee, please keep it up……. Thanks!!!
Darth “Craptasitc” Ballz
Why the knock on Manny Coto?
It sounds like he blamed him for the slip in ratings in the fourth season … but wouldn’t that be the natural extension of a three season slippery slope of ratings that led into it?
If Manny Coto had been involved on an exec level from day one, I think “Enterprise” would have been far better and more than likely more successful. He understood the potential of a prequel series and tried to make it be that. He didn’t try to shoehorn a bunch of TNG-type plot devices (ie, Temporal Cold War) in to make it “better.”
Manny Coto has moved on to great success, co-producing the popular show “24″ which won a slew of Emmys (including best drama) for last season’s work. I guess you could guess Coto is not losing much sleep over anything Berman has to say about his tenure on Enterprise.
…Berman’s problem is that he fell prey to his own ego and refused to acknowledge that any decisions he and Braga made could possibly be the wrong ones. He started off on the wrong foot with Enterprise by insisting on using that Rod Stewart lame-assed “Faith of the Heart” as the show’s theme song despite almost unanimous agreement amongst viewers that it killed each episode’s momentum from the first note. The song was so despised that most episode cappers removed the opening credits from all their uploaded copies save for the Mirror Universe 2-parter as a public service. And from there, he simply allowed the franchise to go downhill. Had he had 1/3 the balls of either Michael Pillar or Ron Moore, he’d have fought harder to get the show more support from the network, rather than just pissing along trying to keep his job.
So, as someone else posted, don’t let the airlock hit your ass on the way out, Rick. After all, the Alien Queen is waiting for you out there, and she’s probably pretty hungry too…
re #5
Man that’s a lot of hate… You would have preferred Trek became an all natural, oversexed, fascist right wing, un-important, hackneyed, passionately soulless, politically ambiguous allegory?
Seriously, I can respect people’s opinions…, I personally couldn’t stand the last 2 Star Trek movies or Enterprise. I’m not sure however, that you can look at an entire body of work, consisting of 6 – 700 hundred hours of TV & movies, and say it all sucked.
That shows a lack of critical judgement man. Your choice of a deragatory screen name is enough to render your comments largely irrelevant to me.
Doug
I think Berman has some rights in saying that the last part of the fourth season of Enterprise was good “only for the hardcore”. I wouldn’t be so drastic, but I stopped watching it after the Vulcan arc, since the ties with TOS (a series I never liked that much) became too much for me. It seemed to me that Enterprise needed a ton of ToS references to be recognized, and I don’t agree with that. THat, and a few other stuff thrown in (like the -IMO- worst idea for DS9, Section 31 “prequel”) made me stop watching the show. And I don’t agree with all the bashing. YOu can criticize Berman’s *work*, but not going to personal insults. For me, it produced entertaining television with ups and downs, and that’s all that matters to me.
#5 Wow. Really really lame, dude.
#8 Hear, hear. I’m appreciating this site more and more for the quality of the discussion, and I’m realizing it has everything to do with keeping a damper on hate-filled rants.
#21 Agreed. Some here are claiming that Coto’s work was better in season 4 but ratings still went down only because it was “natural” after 3 seasons of dwindling ratings.
But if season 4 really did have greater widespread appeal wouldn’t the show at least have held on to the viewers it still had at the beginning of the season? Truth is, season 4 was only better in that it appealed to continuity buffs. In terms of pure storytelling there really wasn’t much improvement.
I’ll lose no sleep over his departure. Out of literally hundreds of hours of Bermanized Trek there are only a handful of episodes that I would ever care to lay eyes on again. Yes, I watched every stinking hour of Berman Trek, because once in a blue moon they would crank out an “Inner Light” or “Yesterday’s Enterprise”…or “The Visitor.” And everytime I would say to myself…well….someone “gets it”, maybe things will turn around. Sadly it was usually episode after episode after episode of technobabble- ridden, last minute solutions with plodding a/b storylines and lackluster characterizations. Once in a while, the glimmer of TOS would come through, but sadly, it was the exception rather than the rule. I haven’t watched, nor have I had any desire to return to any of the Trek TV spin-offs after they aired their last episode. TOS dvd’s and movies sustain me when I need a Trek fix every couple of months. I can watch them over and over while Trek, after Berman, holds no interest for me at all. I’m grateful that Trek Remastered has given me yet one more opportunity to see my favorite episodes in a new light. And the new movie is very exciting. Yes. Berman helped his version of Trek prosper, be he also was resistant to change and content to let the universe stagnate, and that, in my opinion, was his downfall.
#22:
I wouldn’t say all the problems that are said to plague Enterprise were the cause of its downfall. There are a number of factors, usually people tend to emphasize the ones that stood out more for them. For me, it simply didn’t go well (I tend to consider the series as separate entities rather than a full going story divided in several branches). I think I’m one of the few that enjoyed the TCW arc, and was rather disappointed to see the hasty conclusion of Storm Front. I think it’ll pass a long time before someone can look and evaluate Berman’s performance on an objective level.
I think his time is done with end of Enterprise, but that doesn’t mean I’ll be happy if he’s not involved. I’m curious to see what JJ Abrams will bring to Star Trek, though one of his creations (Lost) is the kind of show I hate most. That, and the TOS era which I’m not very fond of, but I can overlook and see what the movie will be without prejudices anyway.
William Shatner as a Chef on Enterprise? Someone help
Rick Berman deserves nothing but scorn and hate from the fan. He didn’t keep the franchise alive. He took the goose that laid the golden eggs and cooked it.
Even to this date, the idiot hasn’t watched the series that gave him a job. No wonder the franchise failed under his leadership.
The best thing about Rick Berman was his exit.
Let’s hope Abrams is competent and brings in Shatner and Nimoy to reverse Generations. That’s step 1.
There is not ONE person to “blame” for this. Whether anyone likes it or not the FACT is that Star Trek went downhill based on STATS alone. The ratings reflected the group sentiment – but wait a minute!!!! Thats what happened in TOS in the beginning too! It wasn’t till some time passed that new watchers came on board and the snowball continued. DS9 for the first 3 seasons – until Worf came in was lame CA-RAPP. The worst Star Trek ever. Voyager was more faithful to the IDEA of TOS hence Janeway and Kirk are the most similar Captains. Try watching these Berman/Bragga/Coto/Ryan episodes again many years after you first saw them. Berman did an OK job sometimes. Roddenberry made mistakes too. When he gave up the reins for TOS’s 3rd season there were still some really good ones (Enterprise Incident for example) First 2 seasons of TNG were a bit lame here and there. Some great Star Trek was produced by Berman, as was some great STar Trek produced by Roddenberry. Both didn’t score 100% Keep it in context. Really Die hard fans are way too fanatical and are too wrapped up in the “world” of Star Trek to be able to step back and look at what was helmed by Berman, and look at it from an ENTERTAINMENT point of view. I personally think Jeri Ryan did a wonderful job. Star Trek got very meaningful when she came on board. Voyager was a masterpiece, and the last 2 or 3 seasons od DS9 got good for what the show was – a TAKE on Star Trek. (Sisko was still a dope of a Captain.)
Sorry Jeri Taylor. (Got 7 of 9 on the brain)
re 27
I think the worst Trek seasons ever (excluding all of Enterprise) were Season 1 of TNG & Season 1 of DS9. After that though they both steadily improved.
I still think DS9 brought the most involved relationships and storylines to the Trek Universe, and it was damn near brilliant until about season 6. Hit or miss after that. Terrible series finale.
Doug
#24 Yeah, it will be interesting to see what Abrams winds up doing. Incidentally, with all the criticism Berman’s taken for not watching every episode of TOS, has Abrams ever claimed to watch every one? I know he’s said he didn’t pay too much attention to the later series. It might be too much to expect him to be a Trek super-expert.
Good for Rick Berman; the guy’s responsible for most of modern “Star Trek,” good *and* bad.
I enjoyed Manny Coto’s version of “Enterprise,” but there’s not much question that his references to TOS were of interest mainly to hard core fans. How could it be otherwise?
And no, there’s no reason for *anyone* to watch all of TOS unless they really really like it. Much of it is close to unbearable, and there’s nothing so instructive for continuity reasons about knowing what the name for the slaves in “The Cloud Minders” was (for example) that the exercise can be justified on those grounds.
Go ahead. Get it all out of your system. All that hate for TNG, Picard, “the left”, etc.
Hate coming from (purported) Star Trek fans. This marvelous new era of hate-mongering and fear-mongering really has left no stone unturned.
I suggest to Paramount, “there is your new audience…” It’s a large one, should be quite profitable for you.
Sorry but I can’t sit through an episode of TOS without laughing and talking about how shit it all was, their movies (for the most part) were good and their movies are what saved the entire TOS.
Oh another thing Enterprise was great all the way through (it’s my 2nd fave after TNG) TNG was consistantly excellent after season two and an above average show that produced 3 excellent films (FUCK U BAIRD) DS9 was also a very different take on the entire universe of Trek however it was excellent once it hit it’s stride and Voyager was just plain dumb and unintelligent all the way through and TOS reminds me of the Batman film of the 60’s.
Opinions are just that… opinions. Personally, I’m not a totally exccentric Star Trek fan, I started liking it with TOS movies, was introduced to the series by my father and started loving it and since I begun watching TNG I got married to it. And never let it go, I love all versions of Star Trek, even the FlashGordon-like animated series (and I hope for another animated series), and Enterprise, for me was really welcome. I think its overture was really adequate to the series proposal, and it has the best vulcan character since Spock, and I only watched the first season (for lack of time motives), considered the worst for many “fans”. So I’m sure I gonna really enjoy the other three and be sorry for its descontinuity. But I’m sure that Star Trek is very strong universe that can never be ruined by one person, and it never was, for it had its ups and downs since the very beginning, by the hands of the Great Bird.
Al- Purportedly his and his people’s idea of bringing Shatner back on Enterprise was to make him some sort of comic relief character on Enterprise, the chef. Yes it’s true. Then when fans pooped on that idea he balked at paying Shatner for an appearance saying it wouldn’t help ratings. Maybe it wouldn’t have but it didn’t stop him from preparing a teaser trailer to show to advertisiers highlighting the retun of Kirk and it would have made alot of us happy to have our Captain back.
#20 Doug i am not a right winger I am a moderate. I am sick to death of the Left and the Right highjacking the agenda. TOS was very moderate in it’s tone because it was created and written by men who had fought in and seen both the horrors and neccessities of war (we’re talking WWII here not Vietnam or Iraq so settle down) They had the turbilance of not only WWII, but the cold war and the social upheaval of the 60’s to draw upon, they lived in very thrilling and perilous times. The Next Generation Era was mostly extremely Socially Liberal , like some sort of Northern California new age comune where they had preschools and social workers making command desicions on the flag battleships of the fleet. Deep Space Nine, a wonderful show, was also very moderate in it’s tone. The best of the Next Generation (First Contact , Best Of Both Worlds, Yesterday’s Enterprise) had more in common tonally with TOS than the rest of the Next Gen Era. And what is wrong with sexuallity?? Did i say I wanted an oversexed Star Trek?? I want a Star Trek that doesn’t seem afraid of it. The TOS wasn’t afraid of it, Ron Moore’s Battlestar Galactica isn’t afraid of it, Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5 weren’t afraid of it. But the whole Next Generation era was., especially Voyager. The characters are all so repressed (except for Riker I suppose) . The greatest shame of it all is that Patrick Stewart did the swashbuckler so well when they let him. Go back and watch his scenes in Dune and especially Excalabur when he single handedly holds off a fort with a blood covered battleax while protecting his daughter Guiniveere. A little bit more of that and a little less flute playing would have been nice. I loath what Rick Berman tried to steer Star Trek into and I will not apologize for it and i loath him for his cavalier attidute to even the smallest requests of the fans (like not changing the dumb ass song on Enterprise) or bashing Manny Coto who is a major player in hollywood and is a fan of the original vision of Star Trek just like most of us.
Backtracking to #14, David, I think that was a fair and even-handed assessment of Bermans contirbution. Your mention of Fred Freiberger also made me chuckle, reminding me that, were he alive today, Freiberger would be Berman’s biggest fan — for replacing him as Star Trek’s most reviled producer — the “Man Who Killed Star Trek” — again!
Berman was forced by the studio to produce two further trek series together. So it was not really his fault or idea at this point. But I agrees with Anthony that later mistakes were made that at least should be ackknowledged today. Berman has nothing to loose.
Well, he’s right. Berman can’t hate something, unless he’s actually watched it and made an opinion of it. I think he’s just not interested in the original series. And maybe that’s worse than hating it, for Star Trek writer and producer, I mean.
Hi, folks. First post from me. As a long-time fan of Trek (since the early 1990s — long time for me, being only 23) and being someone who has seen pretty much every hour of Trek (from TOS to the movies to the TNG-era shows to Enterprise), I just wanted to express my intense disappointment at the extreme ignorance and immaturity conveyed by pseudo-fans such as the writer of message #5. Yes, Berman has made several mistakes during his tenure as overseer of the franchise; but then again, so has many others involved in the productions. Everyone keeps saying how he “killed” the franchise, yet they fail to realize that the damn thing had been running for 18 years straight. Mistakes were bound to creep up, and fatigue was bound to set in after some time.
Now, do I agree with everything Berman does and says? No, of course not. The ratings for Enterprise’s fourth season did not continue to slip because it began targeting only hardcore fans, it slipped because A.) the first three seasons had already had slipping ratings, and B.) the show had been moved to Friday nights (big mistake in the TV world, as evidenced by the third season of the original season). And why were the ratings slipping to begin with? Well, let’s face it: the early seasons of Enterprise – specifically season 2 – did not offer many great moments. Episodes such as “Marauders”, “The Communicator”, “The Crossing”, “Horizon”, and “Bounty” were less-than-memorable, while some like “Vanishing Point” and “A Night in Sickbay” were just plain horrible. But one thing people must understand is that all TV shows (yes, Star Trek is a TV show, remember?) have their bad moments, and Enterprise was no different. Add to that the fact that Berman spent 18 years writing for Trek, so naturally it becomes more and more difficult to write material which the viewers have not only never seen before, but which they will also find engaging.
Many people will point out that one reason why Enterprise failed was because it did not stick to Trek canon and as such supposedly disrespected the original series. You must realize that anyone who tuned out from Enterprise for this reason are, for lack of a better term, idiots. These are people who are far too involved in the world of Trek, yet lack sufficient imagination to “fill in the gaps”, as it were. Here’s an idea: how about instead of whining and crying and demanding to be spoon-fed your stories and your canon, you instead use your mind (you do remember how to use that, right?) to think up possible explanations for apparent continuity errors? Star Trek is smart television for smart people, and if you can’t show an ounce of intelligence when watching it, then perhaps you shouldn’t.
Also, why is Enterprise getting such a bad wrap for its inconsistencies with Trek canon? Nearly every episode or film contradicts SOMETHING from other episodes of films; TOS and Voyager did this constantly. Yes Enterprise is the guilty party? No, I don’t think so. Let’s face it, anyone who rambles on about how Enterprise violated Trek canon apparently never watched the other shows and obviously has no idea what the hell they’re talking about.
Basically, what this rant comes down to is: stop bitching. You don’t like Berman? That’s fine, but don’t sit there and swear at the man as if A.) Trek is dead and he is the cause; B.) he is the only one at fault for Trek’s current “hiatus”; and C.) as if you could do any better, because unless you’re an expert television writer, we all know you’re lying. Giving your opinion is one thing, but thrashing the man is another.
Okay, I’m done now. I’ll let those Berman-haters who completely disagree with me to further prove my point by continuing to bash Mr. Berman. Have fun!
#33 and 34
I had some choice comments for you, but in the interest of interstellar peace, let’s just say…I disagree with you.
farewell rick berman
live long and prosper
Honestly, I lost interest in Trek when they killed Kirk, and essentially TOS, so I’m thrilled that Berman is no longer involved as opposed to someone that will come onboard and show the TOS characters the respect they deserve. I never got into the newer Treks, and maybe Berman is the reason, but I felt the new stuff lacked the magic and spark of the original. I watched TNG for a few years before just giving up. FC was pretty good, but that’s the last new Trek I’ve seen.
Hindsight is a wondeful thing. We can step back and look at things we could
have done differently. There was agreat deal wrong with “Enterprise” that
could have been corrected early on it was not. Potential is a terrible thing
to waste. More than enough effort was produced to let Berman and Braga
know that the direction the show was taking was wrong and all this imput
was ignored. Its too bad Coto wasn’t there at the start of season 2 the show
would probably still be on. Berman and Braga did produce some really fine
“Trek” but the path they chose for the series caused it to fail big time. The
viewers left in droves and Sponge Bob Squarepants kicked enterprises ass
for the time slot what does that tell you. “Star Trek:Enterprise” could have
been glorious and instead we’re left with stories untold.
Wow, the “Berman Bashing Brigade” is still alive and well! LOL Though I do not like the man, I think in some cases he’s treated too harshly. One case, however, where he deserves what he gets is his “treatment” of TOS. As someone else mentioned, how in blazes does he think he can do a Star Trek prequel series without watching every single minute of TOS (movies included)??? Watching them all even just once would not be enough. It’s called researching a project and getting prepared to do it justice.
I truly think by the time they were developing “Enterprise”, they were just sitting there saying to themselves, “hmm…now what will we do?” “Hey, Star Wars prequels make a lot of money. let’s do a prequel. Then we can do whatever we want to, since it’s in the past.” As they sit in the producers room, they continue, “Oh man, what are we gonna do about those fans who scream that Star Trek should look to the future?” “Hey, I got it, Rick!!! Let’s put some time travel aspects into this story…make a mystery character that shows us glimpses into the future so we can satisfy those whiner fans. Heck, we can do anything we want to that way! ”
It all just keeps going downhill from there. Though Manny Coto was far from perfect, had he come on DURING season one and been given the general directional control of the show, I think it would still be on or grinding down to it’s 7 year halt time. The ratings?? Nah, wouldn’t be great, but would be LOTS better than where they ended up. Voyager pretty much helped to seal Enterprises ratings, to a certain degree.
Even silly minor things that Berman and Braga did to annoy fans. It should be spoken, Captain Jonothan Archer or THE Enterprise…not Captain Jonothan Archer of Enterprise. Maybe it sounds silly, but why the heck do they think they are so mighty that they try to correct grammar from a 1960’s classic! Insane!!!!! And there is so much more that they did that was like that…
Rant over! I think…
…not quite! I think Star Trek actually started to decline when they destroyed the original starship Enterprise. The ultimate shock value back then, the ace up the sleeve regarding Captain Kirk. They blew it wayyyyy too soon. I loved Star Trek 4, but it felt weird without the ol’ girl! It’s felt weird ever since!!
Despite the fact I enjoyed Voyager Berman and UPN drop the ball on it. I hated the fact that they drfted away from their premise when that is why some many fans (not all) turned into Voyager then he abandoned what people wanted to see? With Enterprise you kind of had to bear with it but it did have a good premise and character that was easy to like. Manny C was doing a great job with the show but it was to late. Enterprise would probably be on if it was on a different network like Sci-Fi, G4 or Spike TV.
I thought that Manny Coto was hired onto Enterprise during the third season because of his work with Odyssey 5, which had a similar premise. The way I see it, if the series never went in the Xindi storyline direction, then Manny would never have been hired for the job. And the fourth season (as we know it) would never have happened.
I’m one of those people that is still wanting to see Enterprise come back, but I’m not holding my breath. Most of those that had worked on it have moved on to other things. But … I believe Manny Coto did say that he’d drop whatever he’s doing if he ever got a chance to work on Star Trek again.
That’s what I get for typing too fast and proofing too fast. In #45 I meant to say: There were even silly minor things that Berman and Braga did to annoy fans. When talking about the starship, it should be spoken, “Captain Jonothan Archer of THE Enterprise…not Captain Jonothan Archer of Enterprise.”
I think that Berman tried as hard as he could to make latter Trek work, but the problem is that he couldn’t see outside of the rigid box that was built in the TNG days. Enterprise just had the same stale limitations as Voyager and DS9 — same bland dialog, same tired incidental music, same photographic style, and essentially the same safe characters with just different names.
No, Trek needs to move completely outside that 1980s box and employ modern dialog, quirky characters that act like they’re in the real world, and face strong, fresh science fiction stories that don’t depend on Klingons. Oh, and modern shooting styles too. I’m not suggesting they change the message or history of Star Trek, but they certainly need to take Battlestar Galactica’s lead in terms of character approach, adult stories and modern photography. Yeah, and please don’t spoil the freshness by bringing in that campy, greedy has-been called Shatner. That would be a step backwards.
I don’t remember Captain Janeway calling her ship THE Voyager. I think they were trying to do the same thing with Enterprise. It didn’t really bother me, though, after I got used to them saying it.
Berman oversaw some excellent work on Trek and some really BAD (or at the least mediocre) work on Trek.
Thanks for the good years Rick…but it was way past time for you to get a new job. It’s time for a change. Nobody’s fault per se…but to save Star Trek, it was/is time for new ideas and fresh approaches.
Godspeed to you though — and thanks for Best of Both Worlds I & II, DS9 seasons 3-7, and First Contact! The rest, we could have — in my opinion — done without.
Really.
TTM
Fare thee well, Mr. Berman! As I have always seen it since the beginning of “The Next Generation”, it was the lack of fresh writers that killed the franchise(especially beginning with Voyager). More specifically, the lack of science fiction writers! If you recall the original series of the sixties employed many a writer that was involved in the genre. Writers such as Harlan Ellison, David Gerrold and Jerome Bixby brought their take within an established writer’s bible Gene Rodenberry had created. The failure of the new versions can be attributed to the inexplicable decisions made by Mr. Berman and Paramount not utilize science fiction writers on their various incarnations. Paramount continued to use the same stable of writers thoughout all the incarnations that one can clearly see that they began to recycle their ideas that worked well on TNG and DS9(i.e.-the Dominion war became the Xindi war etc) and they killed the goose that layed the golden egg. Before we all continue to blame Mr. Berman-let us at least thank him for trying to keep the franchise alive and being bold enough to except unsolicited scripts from fledging writers that did(in many times) revive various incarnations of the show! In hindsight, the franchise was simply destroyed by the lack of nerve and failure to tap into a proven resource-genre writers! I wish Mr. Berman well in his future-Live Long And Prosper, Brother!
Berman had some success, his failure is in trying to make Trek all about T&A and explosion action all the time no matter what. Berman isn’t even as much at fault as Braga is, that guy is a egotistical little brat, who got rid of RONALD MOORE and all the good people from DS9.. where are those people now?
Battlestar Galactica is a success large following.
The 4400 is a critically aclaimed show.
Where are Voyager and Enterprise now.. hated by many.. although Manny Coto nearly turned Enterprise into a great series it was too late in many people’s minds. I hope they DO finish Enterprise and let Manny do the job he started in season 4
Oh, forgot to say — Thanks for TNG seasons 1-4 and All Good Things (in my opinion the best TNG had to offer)!
#53
EXCELLENT!!! Your faulting the lack of fresh writers and science fiction writers especially…is DEAD ON!!!! Exactly correct!
Rick…you might have saved your ass if you had had someone like #53 whispering in your ear.
TTM
Trek had no shortage of talented writers. People like Ron Moore, Brian Fuller and others wanted to do more radical things with Trek. I think there were a number of talented people around in the late 90s who grew frustrated with the management of Trek. Former Trek writers can be seen on shows like 24, Heroes, The 4400 and BSG. The issue was that the Trek management (be it Berman, Braga, UPN or Paramount) were for some reason holding these people back. Trek just couldnt keep up with the times and compete with modern dramas and action shows.
Mr. Berman did his job well, which was to make Trek profitable through expansion. yes, that’s a shortsighted strategy, but it is a business. He was the company man, and it should be remembered that TNG happened not because fans demanded it but because Paramount wanted it and were going to do it whether or not roddenberry got involved. I don’t think anybody understood Trek like roddenberry of course, and even if nobody hated it, they lost many fans by constantly rationalizing why they did or didn’t do things. I’d like to think they didn’t know TOS, as opposed to thinking they actively went after it. The KIrk thing is just a total loser, though. Why wipe him out? Made no sense from a business point of view. This is why there should be no Trek potentate at Paramount; whichever creative person is running the movie or show should have some freedom to create the show they want; not have one person filtering and weakening stuff which already has to go through budgeting, front office, etc. And with one guy in charge like that, fiefdoms grow. Change is good. Roddenberry staying forever is different; that’s his baby. The rationalizations they made were frustrating,; like on Enterprise, where they said the communicators had to be small, because cell phones were small. Sure, I guess nobody there understood that cell phones aren’t point to point devices; without satellites and boosting towers they aren;t as useful as toy walkie talkies. Roddenberrry did his research, knew people at JPL. Berman made some good TV, not my personal style, but successful.
As I said in a previous post, I have watched every episode from TOS at least 50 times..some more. I feel I have a good grasp on the “canon” established by this show. I also have watched all of Enterprise. I felt like they did justice to TOS canon and I found is interesting how they tried ti explain how things in TOS came to be and still ink it with the other Trek series.
I keep hearing people mention violate TOS canon and yet I can’t think of an example. Can someone give me an example? And a serious one please..not the missing “THE” in front of Enterprise. Captains all talk about their ships differently..seems silly to get upset because “The” is missing.
Thanks.
wow nothing like a Berman article to bring out the masses!!
First off…Coto’s ENT was on an upswing.
Second I’ll just say the same thing I ever say when Berman’s name comes up…do you really think the creative force behing “big blue marble” should be behind the reigns of a highly respected sci fi francise? Yeah me neither….
Live Long Rick Berman…you’ve already prospered enough
Re: #59
Among the more common so-called “inconsistencies” I’ve seen people complain about is introducing humans to cloaking technology even though Kirk and Spock seemed to have no knowledge of such technology a century later, as suggested in the TOS episode “Balance of Terror”. The biggest complaint is that “Minefield” actually showed a 22nd century Bird of Prey cloaking in view of the Enterprise crew when, as stated above, that capability was apparently unknown to Starfleet and new for the Romulans. While I do agree having the Romulans cloak in that episode wasn’t necessary, it hardly serves as a violation of canon as there are numerous explanations for it.
Yet another continuity gripe is the episode “Acquisition”, in which Archer and crew come face to face with the Ferengi, apparently in contradiction of first contact seen in the TNG episode “The Last Outpost”. However, the crew never learned the name of the species, and we know from episodes such as “The Battle” and “Little Green Men” that humans have had contact with Ferengi BEFORE “The Last Outpost” (indeed, before “Acquisition”), so the fact that they met the Ferengi in 2151 shouldn’t cause such an uproar. That said, while I do find that particular episode (”Acquisition”) amusing, it basically served no purpose other than to have Ferengi on the series, and so we certainly could have done without it.
#54 and #57:
Just to add, Michael Piller (creator of DS9) went on to The Dead Zone, before he died. The Dead Zone will be going into its sixth season next summer. So, I’d say that is a somewhat popular show, as well.
Re: #61
OK, I’ve only seen the Enterprise episode with the Romulan ship once so I cannot provide details nor be sure of my facts. I do vaguely remember thinking it did work with canon because Archer and crew had no idea who the Romulans really were.
But I see your point. It isn’t perfect. One thing I don’t remember…did the Romulan ship have “ship-to-ship” visual communication capability? That would be a big inconsistency with TOS.
Anyway, I see your point…there have been some occasional inconsistencies. But I guess I overlooked them since every single other show in history has inconsistencies between episodes. It’s tough for every writer to know about every single fact in every single episode of every single spinoff.
Otherwise, I thought Enterprise did a fine job of explaining stuff..they even managed an explanation of why Klingons on TOS have no forehead ridges.
Can’t wait to see how many inconsistencies show up in the movie…and how many people will be griping about how Abrams killed the franchise for good. Some bitter, bitter people here.
I say bring Berman back. Get him involved in the new Trek movie, J.J.
As a member of the first landing party and wearing the red shirt.
Perhaps killing him off as a character would assuage some of the bile so many seem to be experiencing. I agree that he was certainly not without his flaws but he’s gone now. Let’s be grateful for that and move on, folks.
Merry Christmas!
Since everyone else is leaving a message to Mr. Berman, I guess I’ll do so as well. I doubt he’s gonna read it, though, especially if he has to go through those above.
Anyways, Mr. Berman — you did good. Yes, you made mistakes, as everybody does. But you left us with some fine work. You’ve held the reigns for some 14 years and have kept the franchise alive and kicking, giving us many fresh and innovative stories along the way. While your tenure has provided much controversy and disappointment in the later years, this is one Trek fan who won’t hold it all against you and who will remember the good things and not delve on the bad. But it’s time to move on and let someone else take over, someone with a fresh perspective on the Trek universe, someone who has yet endured the stress and challenges of working on one, single franchise for nearly two decades – someone who can bring something fresh and invigorating to the table while at the same time keeping with Trek lore. Will that person be J.J. Abrams? Who knows… I would like to think so, but I guess we’ll see in 2008. To tell you the truth, I’d feel more comfortable if he had you and some of the other writers (especially D.C. Fontana, Ron Moore, Manny Coto, and Mike Sussman) as consultants to ensure he and his team have his facts straight. But since Abrams did not follow more recent Trek, I doubt that’s going to happen. In any case, whatever happens, Mr. Berman, I wish you luck… and indeed, may you live long and prosper.
Re: #63
No, there was no ship-to-ship visual communication. In that respect, the episode remained accurate. The problem most people have, however, is that Spock’s line from “Balance of Terror” suggested that invisibility was on theoretical and had not been encountered. Here is the exact quote for you:
“Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain — selectively bending light. But the power cost is enormous. [The Romulans] may have solved that.”
Add to that the fact that Kirk and Admiral Hansen were completely astonished at the sight of a ship suddenly appearing and disappearing. And this was over a century after “Minefield”, so that’s where the apparent inconsistency lies. There are many explanations, though — not the least of which is cover-up by Section 31 or a similar agency — so I don’t see why it’s such a big deal for some people.
For the record, though, I debunk this inconsistency (as well as a few others) at the link provided below. You may find it interesting.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/User:Shran/PageII#Cloaking_Technology
#57 Yo, Anthony!!!
I didn’t say Ron Moore and some of the others weren’t talented…clearly they were. But, I think the problem was they kept the same few writers for too long and they got writers block or just ran out of ideas…I mean, you can just see it from the fourth season of TNG onward it was like watching a car run out of gas.
A few lurches here and there…but the car was running out of gas.
I just think Trek could have used a larger writing pool and definitely could have used some science fiction writers.
Oh, and I have a REAL problem with people who think Trek should be trying to compete wth LAW AND ORDER or CSI, or whatever…these drama shows. Star Trek should NOT be trying to emulate these! Star Trek is at it’s best when it uses solid high-concept science fiction storytelling with strong conflict and characterizations.
A lot of people have lost sight of that…and I am convinced until someone recaptures THAT sense of wonder and strenght of science fiction storytelling then Trek will not recover from the state it is currently in.
This is why I was encouraged by JJ Abram’s reference to The Twilight Zone and Planet of the Apes style of storytelling…this is exactly what Trek needs to successfully reboot.
Anyway, a few of the Trek staff writers overstayed their welcome…and it shows.
I am terribly sorry, but I am not going to bash Mr. Berman. I find this whole thread interesting and amusing at the same time, having just recently read through the ST-TMP thread, and all the comments and complaints about the first film.
It seems there are always going to be differences of opinion. For example, in that thread, there are people complaining about Roddenberry’s own take on what ST should be, which one writer mentions as having been fulfilled in TNG’s 1st season, which they found to be bland and boring. (I don’t have the other page in front of me, so please forgive me if I do not have the exact wording).
There have always been continuity and other problems, all the way back to the original series. The recently aired “The Corbomite Manuever” comes to mind, when Spock says that the unknown ship (The Fesarius) is a mile in diameter–no exact measurements from the precise Vulcan? and in “Space Seed”, Kirk tells Khan that his people have been asleep for 200 years.
I think Enterprise tried, sometimes successfully, sometimes not, to walk a very fine line of following established Trek history/continuity. The greatest difficulty, I believe, is the fact that they were creating a 22nd century future in the 1990s-2000s, whereas TOS tried to create a 23rd century in the 1960s. If TOS had been made during the late 90s, the tech would look a lot different. And Enterprise tried to be faithful to that, but simply knowing where we are now, the extrapolation is going to look different. If Enterprise had simply tried to “backdate” its look and tech from the 60s TOS look, it would have been laughed off the air the first season.
I regret that the producers didn’t take a bigger chance with the mirror universe stories. It would have been interesting to see a more contemporary take on the constitution class Defiant as a successor to the NX class ships. On the other hand, I think they had the Romulans to be too advanced for that time period, compared to TOS.
I do have problems with Enterprise, mainly with its haphazard portrayal of the Vulcans. While I like Robert Foxworth, his portrayal of an angry Vulcan completely pulled me out of the story.
I would liked to have seen Enterprise to continue, especially to finally learn the identity of the figure from the future who messed up the timeline in the first place.
I’ve been a Trek watcher since the 60s, and I have my favorite episodes, and there are those that I just can’t understand how they got made, but there is nothing I truly hate about any of it, or any of the creators who poured their lives into the different incarnations.
just ramblings from a long time fan….
It boils down to this for me. Berman did some good and some bad. Roddenberry did some good and some bad and as far as Friberger goes, as bad as 3rd season TOS was at times, 2nd season 1999 was far worse.
TOS was scifi writers writing about real world issues in a scifi disguise. You can’t hire writers from sitcoms and crime shows to write scifi. They don’t get it. If you want real TOS relevence then go back to the original formula. Scifi writers writing TV scifi. It worked for TZ and TOS and it can work for future Trek series (if any).
Re: #68
You do of course realize that Foxworth’s portrayal as an “angry” Vulcan was detrimental to the story and his character. He was, after all, under the influence of the Romulans. Also that arc was supposed to show why Vulcans in the 22nd century act differently from those in the 24th century. (For the record, that arc is among the favorites of most fans of the series — and with good reason. ;))
Fred Friedberger produced what I feel was the best episode of Trek ever: The Empath. Of course Spocks Brain was bad (hot chicks though) and the way to eden was awful (and would later become an awful movie in Trek V) but I never thought the third season of TOS was lackluster. Of course the effects and sets suffered from budegtary constraints but All our Yesterdays, Day of the Dove, Let this be your Last Battlefield and the Paradise Syndrome ( I…..AM,,, KIIIIIIIIROKKKKK!!!!!) were some great episodes and as i mentioned I feel The Empath (devoid of almost any FX) was the best episode of all. So please let’s not compare Mr. Friedberger to Rick Berman, it’s not fair to Fred Friedberger.
I don’t think I can really add anything that hasn’t already been mentioned here. I’d just like to express my dislike for Berman. His remarks about Manny Coto really show his disrespect, and he comes across as a smarmy, self-satisfied jerk. Coto is who should have been running Enterprise all along, and I agree with prevous posts – if he had a couple more years to work with it, he may have been able to salvage the show and make it something truly great. I won’t miss you, Rick.
Voyager was a sappy show, but Enterprise just plain sucked. Sucked. Sucked. Sucked. Sucked. Sucked.
Nemesis could have been way better.
B&B are gone. That’s all that counts. here’s hoping that JJ does better.
ChuckAmuck:
The problem, I guess, witht the Vulcan arc, (which I did like a lot), is that we were not shown, really, the fragmentation of Vulcan society overall. Foxworth’s character seemed to be more an aberration-and the lack of shock?, or distate? towards his emotionality from those around him made little sense.
I guess, what I am trying to get at is he did not seem very Vulcan, compared to others, who knew nothing about his Romulan dealings. If we had been shown or told, perhaps that he followed a particular school of Surak’s teachings, which permits some emotionality it would have made sense for the character.
I also think that if he had made coldly logical, rational arguments for the erradication of the Sirinites, it would have made more sense for the rest of his colleagues to follow his plans.
I just found Foxworth’s character to be jarring and unbelieveable as a Vulcan, even with the Romulan connection.
Sorry, no Berman bashing in this message….
Rick Berman was put in charge of TNG because an ailing Gene Roddenberry wasn’t up to the job of running it. He did an amazing job of pulling all the loose threads together and, for a time, things seemed to be getting really good . . .
Then everything just sort of stopped. I think Berman had the ability to manipulate the materials he was given in the TNG writers’ bible by Roddenberry and David Gerrold for a time, but he lacked the imagination to think beyond the box and to move Trek anywhere else.
Were it not for the likes of talented Ronald Moore, Bryan Fuller and Manny Coto I don’t think any of the subsequent shows would have lasted beyond a few episodes.
I think the core frustration with Berman’s era, for me, isn’t so much the wishy-washy politics or alleged lack of action. It’s that, under his auspices, many people on the production team came up with potentially great scenarios to move Star Trek on in new directions, be it in the writing, set design, music or characterisation . . . things that would allow Trek to evolve (’to keep on moving forward ;)), but these ideas were squandered in favour of keeping a bland status quo.
Every time Berman’s Treks approached greatness, they backpedaled and chose the safe option . . . usually a plot reset switch. How many times have I read ‘[such and such] is very ambitious for a Star Trek episode?’ Once upon a time, Star Trek was expected to be ambitious.
I see Berman’s era as one of great potential that was squandered. An era so trapped in its own self-important time bubble that it never noticed that the rest of the world moved on. An era so blinkered that a 2002 TV show could have an 80s powerballad for a theme tune.
I don’t wish the man ill, but I’m glad he’s no longer involved in the Star Trek franchise. Ultimately he’s left me with a feeling of betrayal and deep disappointment!
Re: #66
Thanks for the link…I read it…interesting ideas and seems plausible. Funny how we all enjoy trying to make continuity out of stories written by so many different people on so many shows. :) But I enjoy it too…and it works. Wonder if the writers thought the same things.
Re: #68
This is also one of my favorite arcs from Enterprise..I found it quite clever.
Re: 71
Frieberger was not horrible…I do not mean to imply he was. But he definitely changed the feel of the show. Comedy was all but eliminated. The closest thing to comedy was Spock acting so serious as to be comical:
Uhura: What happened?
Spock: The occipetal part of my head seems to have hit this part of the chair (or something like that)
Uhura: No, Mr. Spock, what happened to the ship?
OK..kind funny, but also makes Spock look a little dense. Frieberger actually had a different vision that Roddenberry and I believe the series suffered. The “lessons of the day” were too obvious. Sharon is on the southern most part of galaxy? The metaphors were too obvious. Also, Friebeger also told David Gerrold he would not shoot his sequel the tribbles episode (which was later used in TAS) because Gerrold was told Star Trek is not a comedy.
At ay rate, the series feel definitely changed..and in my opinion it changed for the worst. Now, that isn’t the only reason the series was cancelled, but I feel it contributed…much like everyone seems to think Berman is the reason we have no Trek on TV right now. Other reasons TOS was cancelled included being moved to 10pm Fridays (awful considering the hardcore fans were college students) and the serious reduction in budget. While Friebeger produced some fine episodes (I kinda like Empath too), he also produced some of the worst (again in my opinion).
In my original post, I simply asked the question if Frieberger received the same wrath in 1970 Berman is now getting now…not that I thought he should. Both contributed..both had their problems and mistakes. Nobody has been perfect.
Still, I hope Abrams can do some good…I just have a bad feeling were about to see Alias in space…which could remove a lot of the character development that we all enjoy. But I’m hopeful.
Why would we be about to see ‘Alias in Space?’ Why not ‘Lost . . . in Space?’ ;)
By your rationale STII: TWOK would have been ‘The Bionic Woman in Space!’
Sorry, I have never seen even one episode of Lost. All I have seen by JJ is Alias and MI3. Hence, I’m not fully aware of his talents. I clearly could be wrong and hope I am.
how exactly would ‘alias in space’ remove character development. Alias was all about character…especially in the early years when Abrams was involved. Alias gave the old spy genre a twist by getting into the personal lives of the spies. This additional depth and character development was again shown in MI3 where you learn more about Eathen Hunt more than you did in the previous two films combined.
but more to the point is that Abrams has demonstrated that he can create entertainment products for much larger audiences than trek has been able to appeal to both on TV and film.
Again, it’s my opinion. Alias did have character development. I liked Alias…but it was a complete fantasy. Raiders of the Lost Ark meets James Bonds. A weird marriage, but it worked. Of course Trek is also a complete fantasy…I just want it to be Star Trek..not turn Kirk into Ethan Hunt.
Your opinions are all appreciated..it’s making me think..I like thinking….
I am VERY surprised that not more of you have recognized that Michael Piller was probably more instrumental than Rick Berman when it came to pushing TNG and subsequent shows in creative and compelling directions. Piller came aboard to run the writing staff in Season 3, and there was a significant change in the tone and quality of TNG from that point forward. I think The Best of Both Worlds probably pushed TNG over the top into a hit show, and who wrote that two-parter? Michael Piller. I do see that #67 (Kyle Nin) gives Piller his due respect, but I’m shocked no one else has recognized the man’s essential contribution to Star Trek (and one that I argue exceeds anything Berman brought to the table).
Berman never watched all of TOS episodes. No wonder I hated all his versions of Star Trek. He didn’t even watch the Cage. If thats not disrespect I don’t know what is!
#74:
We WERE shown the fragmentation of Vulcan society. Mostly in the first two seasons of the series. The Vulcan Trilogy episodes are just the turning point when Vulcans start to behave more like the Vulcans from the other four series. And you’re shown why.
#74
What #83 said. :P
I do agree that Foxworth may have gone a bit overboard, but you can tell that most of the other Vulcans (specifically Kuvak) were appalled by his behavior. Also, I should point out that the dissension that occurs here serves to explain why the Romulans of Kirk’s day don’t have the bumpy foreheads like the Romulans of Archer’s and Picard’s era — those who sided with V’Las (Foxworth’s character) and wished for Vulcan-Romulan reunification ultimately left to join the Romulan Empire, and it was their descendants whom Kirk encountered in the form of the Romulan commanders in “Balance of Terror” and “The Enterprise Incident”.
Be sure to give credit to me if you plan to use that as a plot element in a future story. ;)
G’night, everyone.
~~~Chuck
22:58 21 December 2006
#82 I agree major disrespect….jesus christ Nick Meyers sat down and watched a boatload of TOS if not them all to prepare for Khan, and look how that panned out. It pays to do your homework
#84
I’ll bow to your superior thinking Chuck, and the next time I get to see the episodes–yes I will watch Enterprise Again–I’ll pay closer attention. I do like your explanation about the ridge-less Romulans, but of course, I’m sure another virus could have caused the same problems as it did for the Klingons….
One problem I have always had with the Romulan/Vulcan split is the time frame that’s come up–that the Romulan ancestors left Vulcan just 1000 years ago–whether the length of a Vulcan year varies much from a terrestrial year or not–it never seemed long enough to me for such changes to have occured to make them nearly a separate species, especially considering the length of their life-spans–it would only be 5 or six generations.
#84 again–
just checked my ST Chronology, which puts the split about 2000 years in the past, so we’re up to 10-12 generations of divergence. Of course, a society that could conceivabl\y have four, or maybe even five generations of a family living at one time would probably evolve quite differently from ours, in which we are lucky to know our great-grandparents at all.
#86 & 87
Eh, I wouldn’t call it superior thinking, really. I have trouble believing myself to be “superior” in anything, really. But I do appreciate the sentiment.
I’m glad you like my theory regarding the Romulans. That means it’s believable… probably a LOT more believable than my previous theory (which I would rather not divulge at this moment ;))
Yeah, um… I’m not a fan of the Romulan Augment Virus theory. It worked well to explain the difference between the bumpy-foreheaded Klingons and the smooth-headed Klingons of Kirk’s day, but to explain the Romulan differences the same way would be a poor choice in terms of storytelling. If episodes such as “Oasis” (previously known as “Shadowplay”), “Dawn” (previously known as “Enemy Mine”), and “E2″ (previously known as “Children of Time”) have taught us anything, it’s that doing the same thing twice is not nice.
As for the Time of Awakening (the point in Vulcan history in which the Romulans split from the Vulcan race), the exact time period is about 1,800 years prior to 2154, according to “The Forge”. While from a human standpoint such an evolutionary change may not seem feasible, as you stated above, Vulcans/Romulans may evolve differently than us. I think quite a bit can change in 1,800 years, given the right environmental conditions.
#82 & 85:
Yeah, that would certainly appear to be a sign of disrespect, or at the very least, negligence. I agree he should have reviewed TOS in its entirety before taking on a prequel. As pointed out elsewhere among these comments, that’s what research is all about. You can’t do half the research for an essay paper and expect to get an A, not even for effort. Not viewing TOS was, indeed, a poor production decision; definitely not a smart move on Berman’s part.
Also not a smart move on Berman’s part is downplaying Coto’s role in reviving Enterprise and then blaming him for the continued ratings slip. As I said in a comment above, that had nothing to do with Coto’s involvement, but the stigma of what many perceived to be an inauspicious first two seasons and the boneheaded decision to move the show to Friday nights. So, yeah, there’s certainly no denying that Berman made plenty of mistakes during his later years, but the blame for the show’s cancellation is hardly his alone.
Okay, I’m done now…
#59 said: “And a serious one please..not the missing “THE” in front of Enterprise. Captains all talk about their ships differently..seems silly to get upset because “The” is missing.”
I’m sorry, I guess I totally got misinterpreted on this one. I didn’t mean to impy that it was that big of a deal. It just seems that B & B always did little mior annoyance type of things like that which would break off just another tiny portion of the fan base. With the fan base already dwindling, why take the chance of doing things like taking Star Trek out of the shows title, saying Enterprise rather than THE Enterprise (but honestly, that didn’t bother me at all-though it bothers some), putting in the Ferengi, Borg, and so on….the list keeps going on and on. Sad thing is, none of it really bothered me except taking the name Star Trek out of it.
Frankly, I must have come across as an Enterprise basher. Far be that from the truth. I’d put seasons one and two with seasons one and two of TNG & DS9, and season 3 of TOS-which weren’t great, but weren’t horrible. Seasons 3 & 4 I put with the best years of TNG, DS9, and TOS. Voyager is the one that “just plain sucked. Sucked. Sucked. Sucked. Sucked. Sucked.” Without “the girls”, it would have been a total waste of time (joking).
For the record, my list:
1. TOS
2. TNG
3. ENT-tie
3. DS9-tie
4. TAS
5. VOY
Movies: (the first 4 I list are interchangeable, IMO)
1. ST4
2. ST-FC
3. ST6
4. ST2
5. ST-INS
6. ST3
7. ST-TMP (director’s)
8. ST-NEM
9. ST-GEN
10. ST5
11. ST-TMP (theater version)
I guess my list would be:
1) ENT (tie), TNG (tie), and DS9 (tie)
2) VOY
3) TOS
4) TAS (Never watched it, so that’s why I put it last.)
I don’t hate VOY or TOS. It’s just that the ones I listed for #1 seem to be more exciting and adventurous than #2 and #3.
I guess this just shows how different Trek fans have different tastes.
It is “The Enterprise”
My list:
TV:
1. Star Trek
2. The Animated Adventures of Gene Roddenberry’s Star Trek
Movies:
1. Star Trek: The Motion Picture
2. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
3. Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
4. Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
5. Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (Stupid Title, by the way)
6. Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
Berman and Braga created Enterprise so that it was stylistcally closer to TNG than TOS. This is the primary problem that I and I think many others have with that particular show. It was a virtual insult to TOS and everyone who loved it to do this. The writing on the show sucked as much as the writing on Voyager did; not really surprising since Braga was so closely involved. They ran the franchise with blinders on, acting like they knew what was best for fans and everyone else. Then they bring in Coto, allow him to “sort of” take over, and now try to scapegoat him for the show’s ultimate failure. If fans would have been more vocal and less willing to swallow whatever was spoonfed to them, Trek would have never have ended up in such a sorry state. Yeah, I’m bitter, for good reason.
I say GOOD RIDDANCE to him and all of his boys.
And #7 Adam- You hit the nail on the head- SO TRUE!!!
#92, Thanks, Doc. I thought I was going crazy for a sec here witnessing all this Berman love.
“Then they bring in Coto, allow him to “sort of” take over, and now try to scapegoat him for the show’s ultimate failure.”
Yeah, that’s what chaps my ass.
Coto was a great writer…and at least had a good idea for what Enterprise should have been. Coto could write circles around Braga or Berman.
Berman…ugh. Good riddance is right!
Jeez….
….The The the… The Enterprise
…. He didn’t watch ALL the TOS shows (why would he… some SUCKED….a favorite word in here used by adults no less…)
IN MY OPINION, if you read these poisonous posts to others they’d swear this man killed your babies and ate them in front of you. Disagree with him, dislike him….. fine. But some of the hate shown… some of the juvenile comments are NOT what makes this a superior site. It’s time we temper the comments with a more adult tone.
#92 “Dr” image….
Please don’t speak for me…. I Like TOS, and wasn’t “insulted” by Enterprise. Some of it was good.
Coto wasn’t the scape goat for ENT… re-read the quote.
8, 32 , 40 Here Here, I niether love or hate Rick Berman but I think his real problem was he stayed in charge of Trek too long. Like John Nathen Turner on Doctor who he is blamed for everything that went wrong in Trek. Has anybody heard of writers, directors, actors, NETWORK EXECUTIVES.
2 other quick points you want continuallity flaws you don’t need go past TOS some big enough to fly a fleet of Starships through. Point it bugs me people carrying on about there being too much Star Trek. Since Next Gen came along youve had all the CSIs and Law and Order series as well as 10 seasons of Stargate, Stargate Atlantis and soon to be 3rd Stargate series and Galatica remake and its spin-off. Too muck Trek, no suck animal. LLAP
#95
I could not agree more. The immaturity displayed in such posts as #5 got far out of hand, both here and on the recent Brent Spiner news item. These people claim to be Star Trek fans, yet they come on here and prove otherwise. The minute a Trek episode, series or movie comes out that doesn’t meet with their approval, they go looking for someone to yell at, like spoiled children who didn’t get what they wanted for Christmas. There are better ways to voice one’s opinion than to enter a full-fledged temper-tantrum. Since Star Trek promotes peace and understanding, the posters above who have displayed so much hatred and ignorance are basically telling us they are NOT true Star Trek fans (I call them pseudo-fans). I think these people need to clean up their act or go elsewhere.
Sorry ChuckAmuck, but there are different degrees of Trek, so you truely can be a fan of one version and not the others. I prefer the foundation of Trek and don’t enjoy the spin-offs because they strayed, big time, from the formula of the original series. The things that endeared me to Star Trek were not present in the spin-offs. I don’t care if it has Star Trek in the title or if it was called Starfleet Adventures, I just don’t care for the template TNG set, different ballgame altogether. Disliking it doesn’t mean I don’t love Star Trek. That’s like saying, because I detest Laverne and Shirley, Mork and Mindy and Joannie Loves Chachi, that I cease to be a Happy Days fan. Just ain’t so. Peace and understanding and the teachings of Roddenberry have nothing to do with it. The spin-offs are completely different from TOS, no matter how you slice it…. there is no deep philosophical reasoning at play here, I simply don’t like them.
#5 Picardsucks — BRAVO! It’s refreshing to see a man speak his mind just as it pisses me off when panty-waisted pansies complain about it just as nastily. And, I happen to agree with you. The world of Trekdom truly is binodal — a few Gen X traditionalists who still remember what it is to be unapologetically American Men and a bunch of limprwristed metrosexual wannabes who can only piss and moan over how evil “we” were. Pfft. Who cares anymore? When the whole shebang collapses around them in a few years, they will die off soon enough without a highly developed valuechain to support their pathetic butts….
Berman: a hack.
Enterprise: looks too much like sterile TNG even though it’s a bit messier. Main downfall? The stories were mainly “stories about Star Trek” as Dom put it early on.
Star Trek (no bloodly “A”, “B”, “C” orrrr “D”) was a ***teleplay***, written quite often by a writer with something to say! Hainvg “temporal wars” and explaining why sneering blue guyz have moving mushrooms on their heads is simply not very interesting. Add in a bunch of prancing actors that couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag — or hold their weapons properly — and it was simply too laughable to take seriously.
Of course, truly deep ideas cannot be appreciated unless you have been exposed to them before. Those WWII and Korean combat vets had been exposed to many deep ideas inching through the Jap lines in the South Pacific or freezing to death in Belgium during the Bulge. They didn’t have time for prancing political correctness!
JJ — make Star Trek a kick ass, man’s show. Respect the need to kill even though no one wants to kill. Show men who stand or fall by their own merits, rather than bureaucratic mandates and extreme notions of “equality”. Show RIGHT from WRONG and maybe — just for fun — CONFLICTING RIGHTS AND WRONG. Then make the Captain pick one without some deus ex machina technobabble weasel answer trick.
everyone here is a Trek fan. If you regularly visit this and other trek sites and take the time out to write comments…you are a trek fan. No one is more or less of one, no one is better at it.
you can like just one star trek show or all star trek shows
myself I like most of the shows and each had its up and downs
#99
You misunderstand me. You can like one show and not the others or most of the shows and not one. Nothing wrong with that. I do agree there are varying degrees of Trek, and as such, there are varying degrees of “Trekkiness”, as it were. But people can express their opinions regarding the various Treks without resorting to childish stupidity.
#100
#5 in disguise? :-P
#101
You’re right, no one is more or less a Trek fan and no one is better at it. Hence why I said they’re not actually fans… at least, that’s what it looks like judging from some of the comments above. They visit sites like this because they believe themselves to be fans, but then they leave idiotic comments to suggest otherwise. I know Berman made mistakes. I’m glad he’s not running the show anymore, and that someone else has taken the reins. But I’m not going to come on here and tell him he can f**k off and that all of his work sucks, and blame him for killing Trek after keeping it alive for nearly 15 years. It’s uncalled for, and it’s just plain stupid. That is NOT what Star Trek is about and that should not be where the fandom has come to… and, indeed, it hasn’t. Therefore the only possible explanation is that they are not part of the fandom.
Yes, people can like one show. They can like all the shows. They can like some of the shows. But when talking about the shows they don’t like (and even those you do like), a little self-restraint, intelligence, and maturity needs to be maintained. Otherwise, they shouldn’t come to this post and claim they are Star Trek fans since their comments prove the opposite.
“Looking back, the lack of support and the lack of interest people seemed to have in UPN didn’t help us, either. We were working on a network that, in a sense, was completely contradictory to the nature of the show. UPN had become a network of young women and girls and it was not a good marriage at that point.”
I couldn’t help but raise my eyebrows at Berman’s comment. I’m female and love Trek. The discussion of politics and how they can influence all the parties involved is a very enlightening concept that hasn’t been tapped into for quite a while now in television. Women and girls aren’t all about dating, make-up and clothes. If you have an intelligent show with characters you can relate to and a strong storyline, people would naturally gravitate towards it.
Wasn’t also on another post that a significant percentage of Trek fans are women?
I agree with you, ChuckAmuck. It wasn’t Berman’s fault. I blame it on UPN.
I also have been a long-time fan of Star Trek since TNG first aired in 1987. I have watched most of TOS, all of TNG, most of DS9, and Voyager, and all of Enterprise and the movies. Enterprise got better on Season 4 and I was hoping for Season 5 about the Earth-Romulan War and the forming of the Neutral Zone but noooooooo they cancelled it before it happen. The Xindi and Temporal War thing was interesting to me. Smallville’s first 4 seasons weren’t much of success as Season 5 & 6 were. Now Smallville’s ratings are up high with Season 6 so far. They should have let Enterprise to continue with Season 5 then the ratings would go up like it happen with Smallville. Yes, I’m a Superman fan also not just a Trekkie.
Pity the self-righteous for the moral high gound they stand on crumbles while they preach their certitude.
#105
Is that like Shaka, when the walls fell. :-P
If it weren’t for Rick Berman Star Trek would be a distant memory. TNG enhanced TOS and led the way for Trek in the 21st century. Rick Berman saved Star Trek in a way no other person ever did. So who cares if he didn’t see all of TOS? He got it and kept it going. It’s kind of like asking if you know everything about your grandfather? No you don’t but you continue his life in a new and better way. Bless Mr. Berman and hope JJ can keep it going with Trek 11.
I completely agree with post # 5. Berman and Braga took the life and soul out of Star Trek with their politically correct garbage. 55 minutes of beating us over the head with some idiotic pc lesson before solving the problem with some subspace dimensional device (or something) leaving 2 minutes to pat themselves on the back. Actually, Berman and Braga deserve to be ignored forever.
I have been a fan of star trek sence the TOS. After the dissapointmment of Generations, I Saw First Contact which I liked, but didn’t bother going to he theater to watch Insurrection or Nemesis. When I did see them I was’t impressed at all. I don’t know why but I just didn’t seem to be able to develop any interest Enterprise. I am glad Berman is gone.
I am going to see Trek 11.
I think all of you need to STOP talking bad about Rick Berman. It is shameful, some of the things that are said about him. I am not a great fan of ENT either, but everything else he did was perfect for Star Trek. If there’s one thing that Star Trek does, then it is change, advance and grow. Otherwise the shows would die! Rick Berman did a great job and instead of making despicable and offensive statements, we all owe him thanks