Kirk takes ill and Spock takes command, but he has to deal wtih bickering diplomats, attacking Orions and a nagging mother.
This history-laden episode introduces Sarek, Andorians and Tellarites to the Trek universe. There are a good number of effects shots, expect new effects for…
- Planet Vulcan
- Shuttles and Shuttle bay
- A brand new design for the Orion ship
- Many shots of the Enterprise, including firing phasers and photons
The use of CGI, and the team doing it, is terrific for the likes of the planets, phasers, and photons, and ADDING the “reflections” of same onto the Enterprise itself folks…but I CANNOT agree in any way whatsoever, that it is cutting it with regards to doing the actual SPACECRAFT, such as the Enterprise itself, using it… Having seen lots of shots of various craft in this remaster now, I remain unconvinced with the look of too many of them… Now I may remain in a minority of one on this, and yes, I appreciate my view on this doesn’t count for anything, but, as someone who was hoping that the new 2007 updated effects were going to far exceed the look of the original 60’s work, I have been sorely disappointed by this particular aspect…even more so than by what the team seem to have been UNABLE to have time to enhance even, but that’s a separate issue…I so wish that MINIATURE photography had been employed in part on this project, as some of the original stuff is looking far better STILL than the new stuff…
another addendum as I had to cut post #1 short…
Getting past the fact that we should just be grateful that this project is happening at all, and that the CBS Digital team are doing generally tremendously creative work under what seems to be a tight budget and deadline, I believe the “George Lucas” approach to use CGI for EVERYTHING, was a wrong direction for his movies, and is a great mistake for certain effects components…especially when trying to do SPACE VEHICLES that would a few years ago been shot using Motion Controlled Photography. Had this particular remastering upgrade REPLACED the original model-work with NEW model-work available now, ENHANCED by CGI, then I believe this upgrade would have looked phenomenally good. As a huge fan of various effects over the years, I can now only hope that the upcoming Movie is done in this combination of ways, as opposed to all CGI, which I consider personally to be a backward step for a lot of great projects…this one included. Had to get that of my chest, no offence intended to anyone, and just my two cents.
There’s alot of misperception regarding Lucas and the degree of “CGI” used in the Prequel films, I suggest a greater study of the DVD bonus material for the films.
“The Phantom Menace” had more physical models constructed than all three original films combined.
I think before people chastise CGI they should learn to differentiate between what is infact computer generated and what is infact physical models.
For excellent example of physical models utilized with CGI enhancements, see Jabba’s palace, the Geonosis arena, and the planet Mustafar.
On the other side of the coin, using physical miniatures is no guarantee of believable special effects. We’ve all seen many a movie where model spaceships looked pretty bad. I think CBS-Digital’s ships look pretty good.
I like Star Trek:Remastered and if not for reading about the various “shortcomings” on this site, I probably would notice very few of these “problems”. I do know that I really like that the film has been cleaned up and that most of the new effects have been done to my satisfaction. I like the fact that I can still watch the old versions if I so desire. I like seeing some of the different angles of the ship, the changes in planets and matte painting, etc. If I had never been to this site and had not read the analysis of some of the details in the remastering effort, I would have been blissfully unaware that any transgressions had occurred. As it is, I still like it, and I don’t really care whether the impulse engines are lit consistently or whatever. Could the project have been more ambitious? Sure. Could the project have strived to be more faithful to the original? Sure. But I’m still happy with this…and I’m not always easy to please. It’s fun to read the comments, but I never cease to be amazed at what lights a fire under some people. I have gradually learned to just skip over some of the comments of various posters if I have not enjoyed their work in the past….and I have learned to quit complaining about the Star Trek XI project existing. Pretty sure I won’t learn to like Snickers, though.
I think CBS-D is doing a great job, especially given the insane production schedule. It also makes it a bit frustrating know that, given more time, we might have even more enhancements (like those Gary Mitchell screens). Keep up the outstanding work, guys!
Hi Josh T.
Liking a lot of your contributions here by the way.
I agree that the George Lucas prequel trilogy had excellent “environments” as suggested by you, done with a combination of physical models augmented with cgi, but I actually should have been clearer when I mentioned George Lucas’ movies, that I was meaning the ORIGINAL trilogy “special editions”, which introduced new cgi SPACE VEHICLES that, again in my own humble opinion, were just jarring when mixed in with the original model shots. Better to have done more model photography than added cgi vehicles in my mind. Ho hum, even George can’t please all of the people all of the time I guess… and I have agreed many times on this site, and indeed above, that the CBS Digital team are doing a tremendous job generally…
Now, they are saying now that Indiana Jones IV may force Harrison Ford to use a CGI whip due to strict safety regulations on films now.
This is entirely unacceptable, and absurd. This has to be a bullshit rumor.
If this is infact the case, then such is an example of the abuse and misuse of CGI.
To force Indiana Jones to wield a CGI whip is to neuter the character.
No wonder there are so many EMO men and boys running around, life is about taking risks and yes that includes getting hurt every now and then.
For Kirk’s sake, ridiculous.
In the best of all worlds… They would have had a 2 – 3 month lead time in re-doing the sfx before the first remastered episode aired. In the best of all worlds they wouldn’t be trying to assemble DVDs of episode’s that haven’t aired yet at the same time they’re doing sfx for seperate episodes yet to air. All this double duty is simply a bad call by the coporate execs at Paramount. With that said, my hat goes off to the artists and directors at CBS-D. Nit-pick as we may about some of the effects, the fact that we’re talking about this show with re-newed ferver makes the likely hood of it coming back even greater. Watching these remastered episodes makes me yearn for a re-cast, rebuild of the orginal. The guys doing Galatica have shown everyone how to take a concept to the next level and make it commecially succesful and critically acclaimed.
I appreciate CBS-D. I’d send a cake, but I’ll just say it. What I hope is that they do go back over their work before putting these eps out on DVD. I’ll be looking for reviews then. I’m not savvy enough to know whether one CGI model can be injected into all shots. But, there’s no rush on the DVD’s. YOU KNOW we’ll buy them whenever, as long as they’re good. Pleeeeease take the time it takes. We want every shot as carefully crafted as DDM.
#9 – Josh
Just looked up that rumour… you’re right, that’s absurd! Part of the same rumour is that Ford will refuse to do the movie if he can’t use a real whip.
If it’s true, let’s hope that there are enough lawyers in Hollywood to draft up a decent waiver to move past silliness like this. ;)
#6. Stanky McFibberich
I am very much on the same page with you… Just don’t get me cranked up on Snickers vs. Milky Way. You think the Doomsday Debate was bad? You don’t wanna light THAT fire under me. I’m ready to throw down, fella! ;)
But seriously… You made some very valid points regarding the magnifying glass… No, strike that… the electron microscope that the Remastered Project has been under. There have been SO many comments and observations and criticisms and proclamations and admonitions and… well, general kvetching. And like the individual nature of the posters here they range from penetratingly profound to painfully pedantic.
But such is the nature of art when bestowed on the masses, particularly in popular entertainment. But you know what? It’s fine… After all, it’s a free country (Thank God! and relatively speaking, of course.) And as long Anthony isn’t charging admission… have at it and enjoy!
CBS-D, despite the everyone’s personal expectations, has shown (for the most part) the proof is in the pudding… and they’ve done it repeatedly… under all the restrictions that have come to light. (I’m sure some are saying, “Please NO pudding analogies!” But hey… there’s always room for JELL-O.) And, to be fair, the copious complements far outweigh the nattering nitpicking.
I think my biggest criticism or, more accurately, my biggest unmet expectation is I wish there were more new… original… re-imagined shots of the Enterprise. Certainly, CBS-D has done some in each episode… I just wish there were more. Piggish? Perhaps.
One thing that I’d love to see would be an evolution of the ship’s design to dovetail with the Enterprise in TMP. I believe Josh T had put forth the idea awhile back on some thread… He had suggested that the changes and upgrades be subtle but by the time we reach the end of the third season there was a distinct visual thread for the development of technology and starship architecture that would lead us to the re-fit. I thought it was one of the best ideas ever.
I could rattle off a dozen or so other things I wish had been realized or were different or corrected or… well, you know? But in the end, I’m grateful for what they’ve done.
Ummm … is anybody gonna talk about “Journey to Babel” in this thread?
The updating of the Enterprise as the original series progressed would be an interesting idea from a fanboy wank point of view, but if you think diehard Trekkies are yelling now, that’s NOTHING compared to the howls of indignation such wholesale changes would prompt.
Can’t wait to see “Babel”… and this is only a warmup for the main event next weekend!!!
Steve, very few of us get to see the “remastered” episodes before Saturday night or Sunday afternoon, so what else are we going to talk about until then? ;)
My mistake – please, everyone, let the nitpicky bellyaching continue unabaited. And feel free to carry it over into unrelated threads, like the Chris Doohan thread. Please make no effort to remain remotely on-topic at all.
#15. Scott Gammans
You may be right but what’s more fun than a few “howls of indignation?” ;)
Btw, I got a chance to look at your Doomsday fare… excellent work… looks terrific… I thought the reflections/specualrity on your primary hull gave the Enterprise a different sense of texture… very nice interpretation.
And yeah, probably won’t see my Babel DVR’d until Monday night when I get home from work… sucks.
Again, kudos. Can’t wait to see the finished episode. Best to you and yours.
Steve
although I usually like to see things stay on topic, on slow news days like saturdays, these ‘airs today’ threads are somewhat open topics. when the video and screenshot threads go up hopefully things get more focussed on the episode itself
but for those who have seen the episode…please enlighten the rest of your fellow TrekMovie readers
Yes, I will. If the pictures and trailer for “Journey to Babel” are any indication then CDS-D have hit one clear out of the park. The shuttlecract sequence looks like a thing of beauty. The new design for the orion spaceship is interesting. I thinks its funny that its still moving to fast to get a good look at it. The overall look of the episode looks very crisp and clear while the colors really stand out. And this is all from the trailer. I can’t wait to see the episode! Good Work, CBS-D!
post 11. CmdrR
After reading the Offical Star trek website on the updated questions answered it sounds like the way they have answered the questions there will be NO tweaking before a final cut for DVD and that is a shame
Its a real disappointment that these are being rushed becasue the work the guys are doing is great and getting better and better all the time. It just makes you wonder what we could of had if they where given the time.
I really dont understand why they have to rush tem out on DVD. Sure finish them for tv as best they can but hold fire on the DVD’s. We can always download them from itunes as they are until they go back and do all they can for this project.
But like I said before I dont think they plan to do any more after this TV run is over… I just dont get it…why the rush to get the final version out? I really want to know.
Well, (a) I think you took me more seriously that I intended, and (b) thanks for that sarcastic jab, Anthony. You’re a real peach. I wasn’t aware that the only discussion about “Journey to babel” allowed was about the remastered episode as aired. I thought perhaps it might be fun and interesting for people to talk about the fine quality of the episode in general, the story, the characters, the performances of the actors, the impact the episode had on the perception of the Federation and its politics, expectations of the new effects et cetera, rather than just carrying over the same arguments about how bad or good the CG model of the Enterprise looks. You know, something that’s actually germane to the episode that’s being aired today, rather than just a continuation of the same general argument and complaint that’s been going on for weeks and which will continue to go on and have many avenues in the weeks to come. I just think its a shame that there can’t be a bit of a respite, particularly when a new talkback is opened up about a specific episode and none of the first dozen posts have anything to do with that episode. So, so fire some sarcasm back your way, Anthony, please, everyone, discuss ONLY the remastered version of the show, or ANYTHING ELSE not-specifically related to “Journey to Babel”, but DO NOT DISCUSS “Journey to Babel” otherwise. Its a slow day and obviously there’s nothing about it worth mentioning until you’ve seen the remastered version, because that’s all that’s relevent. Except everything else. Have at it!
“I think before people chastise CGI they should learn to differentiate between what is infact computer generated and what is infact physical models.”
Word. I had a friend a number of years back who didn’t care for the effects in the episode “Trials and Tribbleations” because he though the recreated FX looked too CGI. . . I had the pleasure of informing that not only were the Enterprise and K-7 actual, physical models, but that they were built by Greg Jein, one of the best in the business.
Speaking as someone who, when The Last Starfighter premiered in 1982, predicted that CGI would never successfully replace miniature photography (and continued to believe it looking at the work being done on Babylon 5), at this point I think the whole CGI/model debate is overblown. Audiences who aren’t steeped in the lore of special effects and could care less about such details find the work on the new Battlestar Galactica far more realistic and believable than the old version, even though the new series uses CGI and the original had John Dykstra’s motion-controlled models. CBS-D hasn’t gone the super photo-realistic route because it wouldn’t fit with the style of the original series, but if you want to see CGI effects that reproduce the original with almost absolute fidelity, Cervantes, just go and check out Starship Exeter.
im greatful for the good things they have done, but the enterprise…they have that ship all wrong in general.
..look at any of the comparision effects shots that anthony had put up comparing the two in FTWIHAIHTTS section…wow and cool…sure! the asteriod looked alot better!
..but the enterprise herself never matched the ship as shown in the updated seasion three shots made special that last season…period.
end of rant
I just found this on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HSYC6Wlbv8
I don’t know if you guys have been speaking about it, but with all this Doomsday stuff, this is really interesting and cool, a concept that was approached to the exec’s in the 90’s about redoing the series, with Doomsday Machine as the example.
I think it is very cool, very interesting.
Correction. The blurb only says it was for the episode Doomsday machine itself, nothing about the whole series. But still cool.
I think the definitive answer to whether miniature or CGI are the best is evident in the work in the first Trek film.
I do not think even the best CGI can capture the subtlety of the surface detail, and the meticulous cinematography of Doug Trumbull’s crew. Lord of the Rings used WETA “bigatures” with CGI compositing.
I wish Brian Johnson, of 2001, Alien, and Empire Strikes Back reknown, was hired to do the visuals using models, with some CGI.
On the other hand, I think Foundation Imaging did superlative work on Voyager, but the company is defunct, and perhaps the “cost” would have been prohibitive.
Yeah, the Poseidon that Daren designed and was created by ILM entirely in CGI was decent, but I bet they charged $50 million dollars for their work. That would buy a ton of model work.
Here’s the link to photographs of the model used in the films.
http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/STMPEnterpriseTop.htm
As many have mentioned before, CGI gets a bad rap. Some effects that you think are CGI are actually enhanced miniatures (Star Wars prequesls) and effects that you may have believed to be models were, in fact, CGI. Foundation Imaging made great advancements with Babylon 5. The first season or two were shaky, but from Season 3 forward, the FX were vibrant and exciting, and highly realistic. They were so good, in fact, that they raised their rates, and Babylonian Productions had to create their own in-house FX group, Netter Digital, using Foundation’s already established FX. Luckily for Foundation, Paramount had the deep pockets, and could afford to hire them for Voyager and Enterprise. Similarly, the Trek movies began incorporating digital ships in First Contact to flesh out the major Borg battle, and with Insurrection and Nemesis, even the Big E became completely (and undetectably) CGI. There is nothing mechanical that connot, at this time, be presented in a convincing CGI format. The only limitations are money, time, and rendering power. Since the power is readily available these days, we’re still stuck on money and time (which is just another factor of money).
Rest assured, when Trek XI hits the screens, the FX will be jaw-dropping, like just about every motion picture these days. Nowadays, spectacular effects are a given, but it’s the stories that tend to suck big time. And we don’t want that either.
#9:”If this is infact the case, then such is an example of the abuse and misuse of CGI.”
Nitpicking here, but that’s exactly what it’s not. It’s an excellent example of using CG to solve a production problem that couldn’t be addressed as well in any other way.
The absurdity in this case, if such it is, is in the production not being permitted to *use* a real whip on screen. *If* they’re forbidden to do so, CG is the only tool available that might work…rather than a trick being abused for the sake of showing off.
Anthony, do you know if they’re going to fix the eyes on the Tellarite ambassador in “JOurney to Babel”? Those black holes in the Tellarite mask always bugged me.
I liked how the FX team on Nemesis used both CG and models for the Enterprise-E. I could not tell at all.
I swear by the FX work on Enterprise done by Eden FX.
They also worked on Voyager and DS9 along with Black Pool Studios and Strange Engine.
#27 – J. Parker: Excellent point about TMP’s miniature work. When I watched it again on DVD a few years ago (when the Director’s Edition came out), after having watched the film for 20 years on videotape, I was genuinely astonished at how impressive the V’Ger model work was. It wasn’t just intricate, it was beautiful.
#30 Commodore Z: I always thought that the Tellarites had deeply sunken, and possibly not all that useful, eyes (IOW, that the look of the mask was intentional). Gives them kind of a mole-like vibe.
Now that I’ve seen the remastered episode and am qualified to participate in the discussion, I can say:
* Its cut to pieces in the editing. Its astonishing to see what gets cut for time from these shows.
* The shuttle landing at the start of the show looks tremendous but goes by really quickly. They did attempt (as discussed in the Star Trek.com interview) to add a little CG to the live action hangar deck footage, and its subtle and debatable as to how well it marries the live action to the CG – but in fairness, its no more jarring than the switch from the original miniature hangar set to the live action.
* The Orion ship looks great in motion and it goes by so quickly that you really wouldn’t be able to discern many details without CBS having released that photo earlier this week.
* The Enterprise looks very good – more in line with the more recent run of shows and less in line with the less convincing appearance in “Where No Man Has Gone Before”.
* I think the phaser stun of Thelev has been tweaked ever so slightly.
* Two shots that are going to cause a lot of debate – the Enterprise can be seen firing phasers that track the Orion ship, which is also in the same shot. The original show never showed anything like this, so its fairly unique and how well its received will be interesting.
* The same can be said of the shot where the Enterprise disables the Orion ship. It basically flies into about four pieces rather than just taking a hit and its engines no longer spinning. It looked a little weird to me, like tinker toys flying apart, so I think that will be a heavily discussed shot.
* The Orion ship explosion looks excellent and is a new shot.
* The last shot of the Enterprise flying off into screen right is a very faithful recreation of a shot that got used repeatedly on the original series. I’m not sure I had seen it redone in CG but its a very faithful recreation and I thought it looked excellent.
So I hope this puts me back in your good graces, Anthony. What can I say? It was early. Mea culpa.
#34 – steve623
Thanks steve… great breakdown!
Good stuff, I’ll be seeing it in about an hour :)
I was happy to make a comment on the episode since I apparently get it pretty early compared to a lot of folks. Journey to Babel is one of my favorite episodes, like top 5 easily, and it was the second Star Trek I ever saw, so its just one I really enjoy. I think its packed with a lot of terrificness, and I would just like to see everybody talking up all the good than spending sooo much time and energy kicking that same dead “I don’t like the CG” horse over and over. But live and let live, right? No hard feelings all around I hope. I shouldn’t post before I’ve had my coffee.
That external view of the Enterprise and shuttlecraft was apparently edited for time. Jeez.
Just saw the epsidoe, man Miss Jane Wyman really lays into Spock with that slap across the face. No CGI replacement needed there!
Kirk chews out Uhura for having her head up her ass – always thought it was funny. Hangar Bay landing was f-ing awesome I’d like to see more of this sort of stuff. New shots of E looked gorgeous , Already tired of the stock phaser and torp firing shots. those shots don’t match up to the quality of the new E shots. To me they look like tweeked shots of the original CGI model we all loathed. Everything else was tremendous. Damn near perfect if not for the over recycled stock firing shots. As much as i love Daren’s starship shots his hangar bay shot pales in comparison. I know his might be more faithful but this weeks shuttle landing gave me chills. I had to pause it in awe. People in windows-brilliant!!!
Sorry to change gears everyone but has this been posted here yet?
“Veteran character actor Lee Bergere, who appeared in more than 200 television shows, including an original “Star Trek” episode in which he played Abraham Lincoln, has died. He was 88.”
http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2007/02/01/lee_bergere_played_abe_lincoln_in_star_trek_dies_at_88/
#22 Steve….
I hope that made you feel better….
#41… oh no Greg…. I liked him…
That’s a shame, Greg. He was a VERY good Lincoln. I always thought “The Savage Curtain” was reaching a bit, but Bergere carried it off nicely. There’s a part that probably would have made it better:
http://www.startrekhistory.com/restoration/lost3.html
Meant to say Bergere was good, but they cut a good scene.
I still have a day to wait to see this!
As for the CGI vs. MODEL debate, CGI is just a tool… another tool, which as with advancing technology, has replaced models more and more. Honestly, I couldn’t care less so long as the results work… but there is something to be said about the process. The scratchbuilt model ships of the Original Star Wars owe a lot of their personality from the methods used to build them. Personally, I never had much of an issue with the Prequels use of technology… it was always about story and character for me, which was, in my opinion, what Lucas was far too rusty on. About twenty minutes into Revenge, I could not believe that Lucas would get to this point, and be done with Star Wars. Though, I wasn’t estatic about the rest… I thought for the most part the Special F/X work had reached another epoch and Lucas was starting to get his space fantasy legs back.
For me, it’s a little disheartening that it’s likely some of the little glaring details won’t be adressed… but I think it’s better to look at this whole effort with the “glass half-full” mentality. ;-) And a tasty half glass it’s been.
#44 CmdrR.
A Most Excellent Link you provided. Agreed, it would have been nice to have seen this segment in the episode.
#44 CmdrR – what a great scene! I don’t remember “The Savage Curtain” as being particularly memorable (although I haven’t watched it for decades, truth be told), but that scene — or set of scenes — are quite nice. I’d love to see the actual footage of the performances.
That site is great fun. The Lincoln scene appears only in script form. There are still shots of other deleted scenes, plus a trove of production shots. I’d love to lie and say I found it on my own, but someone posted another part of it in one of these threads.
CmdrR
That site wants to paste from my clipboard, something’s up. Just want to warn everyone, heads up.