Berman Can’t Figure Out Why Nemesis Failed February 28, 2007
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Feature Films (TMP-NEM) , trackback
Before Paramount handed the Trek keys over to JJ Abrams, Rick Berman produced the last 4 Trek films (Generations, First Contact, Insurrection and Nemesis). In the latest issue of Star Trek Magazine, Rick Berman reflects on his time helming the Trek film franchise. Berman’s film tenure certainly hit a high point with the hit film First Contact which he describes as "a delight to work on from beginning to end." But it all came to an end with Nemesis which is the only real bomb of the Trek franchise. Berman considers Nemesis his "biggest and greatest disappointment," going on to say "I think Nemesis was a far, far better film than you’d believe from the way it was received." The former Trek honcho just cannot figure out why it didn’t perform as well as he (and studio tracking) predicted: "I, to this day, don’t quite understand what went wrong." .
…was it the release date?
Regarding the notion that releasing the film so close to the last Lord of The Rings film Berman was dismissive
I don’t thing that’s a valid complaint because if that were true we would have done better in other countries where it did not open close to that film and it did not do any better in those countries.
…maybe it was the choice of using the TNG cast again:
Berman noted that the studio wasn’t too keen on another TNG based film, but he felt that introducing audiences to a new cast at the same time as trying to introduce Enterprise "was not a good idea". He acknowledges that bringing the TNG actors back also had issues with negotiations over ‘money, participation in story and in script and approving other people to be involved in the project.’, but he still thinks it was the right call
I felt strongly that the tenth film should be another film with the Next Generation cast. In retrosect, perhaps I was wrong, but I still feel it was the right decision
…or could it be the director?
Berman does acknowledge that the choice of Stuart Baird as director had problems. Baird was best known as an editor and Berman notes that editors don’t deal well with actors and that Baird was no exception saying
There was conflict between the actors and the director, more so than usual. We had, for the first, a director who knew virtually nothing about Star Trek, which caused some struggle.
Berman does note that he only hired Baird after being ‘encouraged’ by the studio who he said had ’strong reasons’ for him to be hired. He does not explain why he did not fight that encouragement as he did their encouragement to bring on a new cast.
For more see Star Trek Magazine.
Comments»
Berman’s part of Trek’s past, now.
I’d rather have more posts about Stephen King and “The Dark Tower”–heck, even posts about Robert Beltran and Linda Park–than more of stuff about him, Anthony. As you mentioned elsewhere, other Trek sites cover this kind of thing in agonizing detail, and putting up Berman quotes here s just going to bring out the frothing-at-the-mouth types.
Berman’s percentage of decent episodic TV Trek was pretty much equal to the TOS shows. NEMESIS was simply not up to snuff in all categories.
If the studio wanted a “Next Gen” movie, they could have (and probably SHOULD have) used the DS9 or Voyager cast. Granted Voyager had already returned home by the time in which Nemesis was set, but you could’ve easily had an actual DS9 movie with 1 or more of the TNG or VOYAGER castmembers in cameo roles of the movie. To be perfectly honest, after Insurrection it was time to follow a different cast through the movies. I firmly believe that Star Trek XI should be set in a Post-Nemesis era following one of the former untold crews from the tvseries (DS9, VOY, ENT).
Also, the fact that they released Nemesis so close to one of the biggest movies of the year COULD have had something to do with the huge failure :P
Plus all the editing of the movie in scenes that should have been with to balance the story out, movie mistakes etc is probably contributing factors to the doomed movie.
It was a so-so film.
But then, a lot of “Star Trek” has been so-so and has been successful nonetheless.
In fact, a lot of fans have praised crap labeled “Star Trek” that makes “Nemesis” look like award material.
Whatever the other reasons for its failure may have been, by the time “Nemesis” opened the producers had worn out any reservoir of good will they had with the hard core fans, and most of the rest of the world had become altogether bored with “Star Trek.”
berman berman berman give it up man…hers is what we all need to take to heart and damit it jim i mean this..tng does not hold up in re runs..i can see an episdoe maybe teic the best of tng maybe 3 or i’ll even stretch it 5 times..i have seen spock’s brain at least 100 times and seen amusment evey time i see it..all the episodes of tos are timless that is priceless..the tng crew never ever had that magic and they never will 1996-1969 was a very special time..kirk out!
#4 - Good points.
People like to say Nemesis fared poorly because it was bad, but the thing is, nobody even showed up to watch it in the theaters to make that judgement. People had lost interest in Trek before anything like word of mouth could have had effect.
I just hope that with new people, new cast, fresh approach, peope’s interest is piqued again. And that LOST’s dwindling ratings won’t lead to people groaning two years from now when they hear the words “directed by JJ Abrams” in the trailer.
Yeah, whatever. Almost any episode of modern Trek other than possibly “Threshold” is more watchable than “Spock’s Brain.”
I thought we had consensus that the Berman era of Trek was over and we weren’t going to subjected to “news” about him anymore….
Seriously. The kind of plans that we have heard for ST:XI to revisit the TOS era could have been done anytime during his tenure. They were not. Enterprise probably came closest in spirit but failed in execution. You had nearly 20 years to “get Trek right” Mr. Berman. Time to move on.
#7 references #5, not #6.
That is all. :lol:
Hey Rick, plain and simple. THE MOVIE SUCKED. Nothing to do with the cast. You can’t make a light ship out of a garbage scow. Perhaps for the same reason you can’t understand why the movie failed is probably why you’re not running the show anymore. Of the four movies you overseen, First Contact was the only one with any balls.
Was the Voyager cast ever considered for a feature film? The 2 part Voyager episodes “The Year From Hell” would have made a good movie.
I am so hoping that on December 26, I can say in the lobby of a theater, “Hey Rick, that’s how you make a F@#%ING Trek Movie”
Gee, where are all those TNG haters railing against this article?
If Berman is reading this, I’ll tell him exactly why I think “Nemesis” failed. In a nutshell, it was trying to be “The Wrath of Khan” but it wasn’t. The basic elements of the plot plot strained credulity way too far.
First, Shinzon was supposed to be Picard’s arch-nemesis, but he came out of the blue with this deep hatred of Picard that the audience could not relate to. Add to that the incredible lapse of logic that explained his very existence. Shinzon was supposed to replace Picard as part of a Romulan plot to overthrow the Federation, but when political power in the Romulan Senate shifted, the project was cancelled. Logically, the Romulans would simply have killed Shinzon, but for some unknown reason the didn’t. That leaves a plot hole you could fly a starship through. In a nutshell, there was no reason for Shinzon to be alive, and no past emotional connection between him and Picard for the audience to grasp.
Second, the whole Data/B-4 thing was a terrible idea. We’ve seen other Soong androids before, but Lore was a compelling character who had his own agenda. B-4 was nothing more than a child, and worse than that, he was a bad plot device. Where the hell did Shinzon find him anyway? Additionally, B-4’s existence nullifies the impact of Data’s self sacrifice at the end of the film. When/if B-4 is able to access Data’s memory banks, poof, Data lives again. It was an obvious back door designed to keep the character around should there be another sequel, and it cheated the audience out of what was supposed to be a very emotional moment. Remember, when Spock died at the end of Star Trek II, we didn’t know if he’d ever be back. With Data, that option was already right in front of us.
Third, somebody (I’m assuming it was director Stuart Baird) decided to excise most of the character moments in favor of moving the story along. Trek fans go to these movies in order to visit with their favorite characters. They’re like friends you only get to see once every few years. We like to take some time to get caught up with them. Yeah, it might slow things down a bit, but that’s okay with us. Let us know what everyone’s been up to, then get us into the story. What we got in Nemesis were pale reflections of the characters we know, with the exception of Picard and Data, and they were busy dealing with their duplicates.
Fourth, the Argo Dune Buggy chase. There are so many things wrong with this segment of the film. It’s anachronistic, it feels artificial and forced and it flies in the face of principles that have been a staple of Trek since the beginning. Picard, Data and Worf wantonly firing on their obviously less advanced pursuers, possibly killing some of them in the process, then flying off with nary a thought about what they may have just done to the civilization of that planet. It was completely uncharacteristic of them and of Trek in general.
Fifth, The Remans. Though Remus had been mentioned in Trek before, the inhabitants had never been seen, so their appearance was a surprise. Grotesque, power-hungry, and unreedeming through and through, they weren’t villains but charicatures. Again, the audience held no emotional attachment to them, so the impact of the threat they may have posed was diminished considerably.
Sixth, Shinzon’s banal “attraction” to Troi. This polt device was just vicious and unnecessary. Again, it was designed solely to justify the problem of finding the Scimitar (Sinzon’s overly complex ship) while it was cloaked. Another empty plot device lacking true emotional impact.
Do you see the pattern here? The entire film lacked any emotional punch whatsoever. We were given only glancing views of characters we care about, and when we saw them, they were often acting very uncharacteristically. The villians were weak and unworthy, and their origins were unnaturally forced. TNG’s previous film outing “Insurrection,” suffered from a lack of action after the tour-de-force of “First Contact,” but it has a very strong story, a message that is pure Star Trek, and a wealth of chararcter moments. All of these are missing in “Nemesis.”
All of this is not to say the film is a total failure. I liked the Romulans in “Nemesis” and would have enjoyed seeing more of them. The musical score is beautiful and the FX are amazing. The scene when the Enterprise rams the Scimitar was brilliantly executed and a lot of fun to watch. The film is simply missing it’s heart, but that was more than enough to kill it at the box office.
So there you have it. No big mystery really. It is a shame, though, because with a few small changes in its plot, “Nemesis” could have been the film everyone wanted it to be.
Berman treated Star Trek the way a baby treats a diaper! Some of TNG episodes were good only because the cast helped to elevate the material!
Best answer - listen to the actors who were there from a YouTube presentation posted on this site very early on. Marina Sirtis and Levar Burton . . .
http://trekmovie.com/2006/08/01/sirtis-burton-want-trek-xi-to-be-a-tng-filmsay-nemesis-sucked-video/
Rick Berman - not one of my favorite people
Ooooooooooops. Sorry the video is no longer available. But the text is there.
The problem with all the Berman trek failures ( in my opinion)is the lack of continuity. I mean, here’s this character who is a clones, younger Picard –who is bald. In Picard’s younger years, he had hair–it was one of those Q episodes. Anyway, it was dull dull dull. First Contact was the best one they filmed for STNG.
I think if they would have gotten the continuity right on Enterprise, it might have lasted. But they always went back to STNG references of characters–such as the Ferengi (sp) appearing in one episode. Then the final they screwed up by making it a STNG holodeck program–what the ??
Then again, who am I to say–I just love the original series. It had a message of hope with it and a chemistry between the actors that no other series could duplicate.
Well, I don’t know too much about this style, but he produced “Generations,” which is in my opinion, by far, the worst Trek movie of all time. Kirk deserves better!
–
http://TalkTrek.com - On with the show…
This is where Dennis Bailey comes in to tell you that the original show was just as bad as the other shows :)
I would just like to say that this is probably the last time we will cover Berman and/or Nemesis, at least until we cover nemesis in our ‘review the old trek movies’ series.
so if you have something to say…get it out of your system now.
but try to stay on subject and not get personal
Personally I think part of the reason Nemesis failed was Insurrection. I think that film was actually less entertaining, especially for your non fan. After that film I think many casual fans and/or avg movie goers just gave up on Trek and didnt even give Nemesis a chance. This is probably why the studio wanted to move on to another cast before Berman decided to give the TNG folks another go.
Personally I do think that the TNG crew could have had one more great film in them, but after giving them two chances the movie going public arent open to it, even if they did make one.
I saw Nemesis and I can honestly say I do not remember anything about it whatsoever. Not one scene or even a vague recollection of what it was about. I do remember falling asleep in the theatre for about 10 minutes and wishing it would have been longer. I have not analyzed the career of Mr. Berman or Mr. Baird and their contributions to the world of pseudo-trek, so I can’t lay any specific blame at their feet. But there aren’t many movies I’ve seen that are less memorable than this.
#11 Buckaroohawk “why I think ‘Nemesis’ failed’.
Anthony is inviting comments as to what we thought of Berman’s Nemesis. Look no further than Buckaroo’s brilliant dissertation posted above. He nails it shut as to why that film stunk up the place. Well done!
#19 Anthony.
Thank you. This is old news and there are other things to talk about. Besides the non-TOS bashers will find another thread to “get it out of their systems” .
#11 Buckaroohawk has an excellent assessment with why Nemesis failed. The only thing I take issue with in that post is your praise for Insurrection. I feel, as does Anthony in #19, that Insurrection was a major contributing factor in the failure of Nemesis movies. Generations btw, if given to a writer like DC Fontana, would have been an instant classic of epic proportions, but I digress. The only decent TNG movie was First Contact. Insurrection was pretty terrible for a number of reasons, the first being that you had an humanoid alien race that looked like extras from a 70’s show. Then you had a planet with healing energy beams that could cure the Federation of pretty much all disease, and Picard fought against it. I was on Admiral Doherty’s side all the way. Then there was Data floating, oh boy. Then Worf’s zit, which was a cheap attempt at humor. And of course, the Pacman joystick that Riker used to fend of the Sona. And the Gilbert and Sullivan piece. That was pretty bad too. That really got rid of the mainstream audience in my opinion. John Logan’s script was too much like Gladiator. Not a Star Trek movie at all.
I agree with Anthony about Insurrection’s role in TNG’s decline. The fact the studio was willing to ditch the TNG cast before Nemesis was even shot, along with my observation that nobody even bothered to see Nemesis in the first place, support that argument.
In my opinion, Insurrection is the worst Trek film out of all ten. It really wasn’t even a movie, but more a sub-par episode, extended to two hours. In the past, Star Trek could recover from a bomb like that, but in today’s world with ticket prices being so high, and other major franchises to choose from, I don’t think the general audience was willing to risk a repeat of the Insurrection experience again. They went with Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings or Bond, but they decided that Nemesis could wait for DVD.
#22
I don’t think they will ever get it out of their systems.
#19
TNG didn’t get the send off TOS had in ST6.
It was first and foremost a bad script that captured nothing of TNG as a series except for a brief glances in between gratuitous violence and contrived sequences.
#23
Gladiator was a fine movie, but Star Trek was clearly out of his range. Once again, maybe it had something to do with the STORY. Although I’ll admit, that film was visually stunning in the theatre.
Certified Rick Berman hater and successor spin off series despiser chiming in here :
Rather than unleashing a full blown treatise going on and on about what everyone already knows, I’ll demonstrate some restraint and merely say my Trek mantra is glowing again and I am “very pleased” Rick Berman is no longer associated with the phenomenon that is Star Trek.
I’ll save all of my little quips,stings, pokes, and prods for the regular forums where I know I can at once offend, yet inspire discussion on slow news days. ;)
Besides, my audience of critics and harrassers would/could never forgive me if I got it all out of my system here with nary a word to say about it in the future.
Bye Bye Ricky boy, are there any plans for an updated version of “the red comfy couch” or whatever the hell that was you “produced” prior to ruining Star Trek?
You just tried to milk the cow too furiously for too long, Rick. People were sick of the ST:TNG era saturation.
Good point danno,
I grew absolutely disgusted and sick with 24th century era Trek, my God, a combined 21 seasons and 4 Motion pictures??? Whereas the 23rd century had 3 seasons and 6 motion pictures? You talk about untapped potential for storytelling.
How many times could we watch Worfs moody clinically depressed ass meander through two different series before it was nailed into our minds that yes he is a Klingon of duel heritage that struggles with that, or what about temporal spacial anomolies? I think between the three series they went through the entire catalogue of spatial disturbances!
Technobabble.
TOS avoided it and danced around it. TNG-Voy reveled in it.
I like science. I’m a behavioral scientist. I like solving problems and intellectual challenges.
But if I wanted to watch on a weekly basis uninteresting humans speaking uninteresting dialogue about uninteresting quantum spatial distortions, I’d tune into a ****ing episode of Nova or Cosmos.
Gene Roddenberry had a dictum EARLY on that the characters in a police drama do not stop to explain how a pistol revolver operates, and neither should the crew and characters of Star Trek explain too much about Treknology. Treknology should be viewed as mundane and ordinary, these people work around it and operate it DAILY, when I’m going for a drive with someone I don’t say “I’ll now insert the molded ignition key into the ignition key receptable, thereby resulting in electricity being generated from a battery power source resulting in pistons firing and engine ignition.”
One of the reasons Star Wars resonates with people and culture so much is that the technology was left vague and mysterious, spaceships were cars, they went, you drove. Guns were fired, sabers cut things, big ships fire big laser beams. Lucas didn’t sit down and articulate every single subtle nuance about every peice of fictional hardware and that is effective, it allows your imagination wonder.
Star Trek lost touch with that concept. Gene Roddenberry wanted the Treknology to be realistic, a natural extension of our present technology, but NOT to the detriment of the story and to people.
^^^^^ That is why you go from-
Scotty! can you fix it?
Uh don’t know Sir, she’s broke!
to
Status Mr. LaForge?
Sir the isolinear chips are misaligned creating a cascading power fluxuation, I can’t maintain structural integrity without rerouting the power couplings through a focused transient direct wave beam. Estimated time for repair 7.37 hours.
Proceed Mr. LaForge.
Kirk would have kicked his ass talking all that BS!
The stories for Insurrection and Nemesis were too thin, especially for a complex show like TNG, and frankly there was just too much Trek being done by the same people, it felt too corporate.
The movie failed because the only thing apparently guiding its creation was studio “tracking.” If anyone knows the Bill Hicks routine on test audiences from Arizona Bay you know where I’m coming from with this.
You can’t give a movie a soul by using marketing techniques. You’ve got to lay it on the line and push that envelope, as they say in The Right Stuff, especially when it comes to science fiction, because audiences can smell a formula brewing 5 minutes into the start of a movie.
This isn’t to say formula is automatically necessarily bad. Not so. A well-conceived formula can be a decent spine to hang a lot of other good stuff on in a movie. A great cast, a good director, even a stellar editor, composer, or set designer can make even the most formulaic stories at least fun to watch, enough to make you not feel like you’ve wasted your time.
Really great science fiction films must successfully meet the challenge of showing an audience something they have never seen before.
When something that is purportedly science fiction fails to do this effectively, you have a big, stinking bomb that really just isn’t worth the price of the stock it’s shot on.
You have a film that was made by formula alone, created without the intention of staking out any new emotional/intellectual territory, thus betraying the very purpose of making - or seeing, for that matter - a science fiction film in the first place. You have Nemesis, indeed. Everything is from off the shelf. The characters at this point are sadly off the shelf. The sets are off the shelf. Even the ideas in the story are completely off the shelf.
Star Trek II is also very formulaic science fiction film. You have the vengeful villain, fighting the classic hero over control of terrifyingly wonderful technology. And that’s basically it, if you reduce it to its most fundamental aspects. But Star Trek II is a success (and still a great movie 25 years later) because it’s so human at the same time. That’s the overriding characteristic of the film that brings people back to it. Nemesis by comparison has no such meta-counterpart, at least that isn’t lifted from, and done better by, Star Trek II. Even though Bennet and Meyer were also working essentially “off the shelf,” and on a smaller budget, they seemed to have felt their film should actually be about something, if what made it onto the screen is any indication. The result feels less like formula and more like something approaching modern mythology. When the credits roll, everything old seems new again.
Nemesis, by the end, if you made it that far, at best, feels contrived through and through, from the Picard clone, to the buggy chase, to B4, to Troi’s “mind rape,” precisely as #11 outlined. THAT post is dead on, man.
Tracking, indeed. It used to be called filmmaking, not beancounting.
I’m gonna start off with this since we’ve been told to get this stuff off our chest. My God I’m sick of the Berman, TNG et. all bashing. Two bad movies and one bad series and all of a sudden everything from the last 20 years is crap? If you’ve hated Trek for 20 years why do you continue to venture these websites? A little bit of critisism is fine and understandable as “fans” but ripping on all Trek except TOS? It’s 40 friggin’ years old! Move on! …okay, I’m done, and I’ll never speak of it again.
On Nemisis, I think others here (especially Buckaroohawk) have already hit the nail on the head. Following Insurrection (It’s up there w/ Star Trek V) you need a movie w/ heart that’ll get good reviews from both critics and fans alike. Nemisis had lame villians, missed opportunities, and stuff that felt all wrong. It wasn’t the TNG cast, it was the fact they didn’t write a movie for the TNG cast. It wasn’t all bad, it had some good moments, but good moments w/ a lame plot do not make a good movie.
It’s because some of us are Star Trek fans Kevin. This a Star Trek website.
Contrary to popular belief by a select few evidently, once upon a time there was a thing called Star Trek, for 20 years actually, and there wasn’t a
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Star Trek: Voyager
Star Trek: Enterprise
Star Trek: Mchappy meal
Star Trek: Rides Again
Star Trek: Worf strikes Back
Star Trek: A series focusing on random background extra number 7
There was just Star Trek. Captain Kirk. Mister Spock. The U.S.S. Enterprise. It was good. It inspired two generations. It put characters and words into the pop culture lexicon. It made studios millions.
People that think Star Trek started with TNG, whether by age, or preference, are missing probably 80 percent of the whole picture.
I agree with Kevin and have often said that berman basherrs tend to forget the good years of TNG, DS9 and FC.
btw I know that Paamount want to avoid the same prroblem with STX
to avoid the INS -> NEM problem I am told that Paramount will promote this as a different kind of Trek film. they will play up the new cast and creative team to ensure audiences know that even if you didnt like the last few Trek films this one is different.
Previous posters are right…Nemesis failed was because most of Trek’s “casual” fans didn’t show up. Why? One word:
Insurrection
This movie was like a bad TV episode. Clearly the worst of Trek movies, without a doubt.
I remember convincing 5 friends to join me in watching First Contact back in 96. They refused at first, because they didn’t think of themselves as “Trek geeks.” But they loved it and certainly didn’t hesitate to join me again when Insurrection came out.
2 hours after walking into the theater to see Insurrection they wanted me to pay them back for their tickets and swore they’d never see a Trek film again.
Are they going to shy away from the roman numerals Anthony?
People generally start snickering when you reach the 4th or 5th film in a series.
I didn’t like the derivative , minimalistic titles Berman came up with for his films Star Trek: ADJECTIVE, Star Trek: VERB.
I think they should get back to big fat, bold, in your face titles that resonate and describe the general point of the film in a dramatic fashion.
The WRATH of KHAN
The SEARCH for SPOCK
Indiana Jones films never spared anyones tongue with those titles, nor Harry Potter.
Bermans films may have fared a great deal better had the marketing department convinced him to be a bit daring.
Star Trek: Generations
Star Trek: First Contact
Star Trek: Insurrection
Star Trek : Nemesis
Yawn
what about
Star Trek : Two captains and the horse they rode in on fight Malcom Mcdowell who wants to go home
Star Trek : Not your fathers Zefram Cochran almost dies because the Borg do some time travelin’
Star Trek: Botox aliens are hell bent on eternal youth! We apologize.
Star Trek: Attack of the Clones. Figuratively, and literally. Again we apologize.
#34 -That makes sense Paramount will go all out to promote this as a different kind of Trek film, and I expect that will extend to the visual look as well (otherwise, it’ll just undercut all their efforts). Again, that means no TOS replication.
Alright, I’ll beat a dead horse.
Doesn’t anyone else find it odd how when you break the basic plot down into a simple summary it speaks volumes about the quality of the film and the heart behind it?
Star Trek - a mysterious alien entity threatens earth and james Kirk reunites the crew of the Starship Enterprise to confront this threat
Star Trek- a genetically engineered superman escapes exile, discovers the galaxies ultimate weapon, and james Kirk has to kick the ever living shit out of his ass
Star Trek- Spock died. We miss him. He’s our friend. Let’s go get him.
Star Trek- A mysterious alien probe travels the galaxy to talk to a whale. There arent any. It pisses the probe off and James Kirk and crew have to go find some to appease the angry whale Gods.
Star Trek - Captain Kirk isn’t impressed by God so he questions him. We laugh.
Star Trek- it’s time for peace in the galaxy. The Klingon President is assassinated by conspirators and you know who and crew have to deal with the shit.
Star Trek- a wacky mad scientist wants to go home so he blows stars up, resulting in captain picard recruiting captain kirk who later falls off a bridge. Seriously.
Star Trek - alien zombies travel back in time to wipe out humanity. captain picard has to make sure vulcans see earth so we can get back to the point we know and love.
Star Trek- Again, botox aliens want to look young again so , oh hell nevermind.
Star Trek- captain picards clone is mad he is a clone and wants to hurt captain picard who is in no way responsible. In the process, the clone is willing to kill well, just about everything and everyone that, again are not responsible.
anyone see a trend or pattern here besides me?
39 - What happened to “demonstrating some restraint,” Josh T?
I haven’t been dogging on Berman! ;)
Star Trek - Derivative Occurances Aboard a Futuristical Spaceship With Lots of Pretty Explosions, We Promise
I think that was gonna be the next one if I’m picking up on the pattern correctly.
You are quite right to be skeptical and cynical about the upcoming film GSmarty, given the epic 4 turds that preceded. ;)
#43
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking the next announced effort. I’m gonna withhold that kind of criticism until I actually see what these new guys come up with.
Derivative Occurances would have been the next Berman-helmed deal in all likelyhood. I admit to jumping on the wagon and following your lead and other cliches to that effect that are springing to my mind right now. Sorry if I was unclear in my prose there. Lateness and a desire to be mildly amusing often result in me just taking up bandwidth and not making much sense.
ohhhhh you mean the all powerful TIBERIUS CHASE and the Romulan War idea!
Wow, you talk about dodging a bullet.
I grew up on TOS reruns during the seventies I loved Star Trek then.
I marveled at the TOS movies great effects at least compared to the series.
I could not believe TNG series I was in late teens early twenties.
Got to enjoy Picard and crew after the BIG SHake up with the Borg.
I was mortified at first at the intro to Bab…DS9 then sisco lost the hair. I really wound up loving that show. The main characters had more interaction with each other even during the WAR. Well Lost in…Voyager did not thrill me either then the BOrg showed up to save..uhhh hmm well you know what I mean.
By that time the emotional impact of TNG movies were going the opposite direction. Generations was a cool flic to view a bad one to relish. Kirk dies in such an anticlimactic and useless way it underminded what I thought was a watchable film.
I liked Contact it had the Borg to give TNG another infusion of action. To be honest Insurrection was only poor to me because the rumors I heard of the script. Picard goes against the regulations , relinquishes his command and fights the federation because of his love of a woman. At the end he lives with her and bids his former crew farewell they leave wondering if they would ever see him again. I thought for sure they were going to break out of the confines of the TV show. However, they played it safe.A evil admiral with plans of exploitation is the reason why Picard is against the federation and his “love” interest was just another wanna be. There was nothing on the line. He and crew save the day and fly off like the TV show. They never get to evolve past the series. Kirk ,Spock , McCoy and friends had been seperated and reunited. Kirk had a son! He Suffered from midlife crisis.
It tooks Khan to remind him that he belonged in the captains chair again. That was just in the first two movies. God…there was some new things and challenges .
In the end TNG did not have the time to evolve from TV to movie stage. The irony in Nemesis was its attempt to shake up the status quo again. But by that time I just did not care. Voyager had wrapped up and turned the Borg into pussy..cats That was the sign for me that the 24 century had hit its limit. I did not even care to see another TV show. I was too pissed over the way Trek had lost its edge.It lost its magic. I thought for sure that I no longer wanted it in my life. It was like going to the first place you made out with your girl in the woods and see the trees torn down and the little pathways that led to the make shift campsite paved over and a house proudly stands in the very place you kissed her. I loved that place but it was no longer there and I had to let go. The return of the TOS to TV ,with new effects no less ,has reinvigorated my hope. I may not have the place where my girl bonded with me but I know that when I see her I still want her. It is good to have my first love back.
Id Insurrection hadn’t been SO bad, leaving a foul taste in everyone;s mouth, maybe nenesis migh have done beter. i sjipped it in the theaters, Only Trek g=film Ive EVER missed in the theater.
It’s not THAT nad, just bad.
And an awful film to go out on . TOS crew rallied after V and made Vi which was a freat way t ckise the chapter.
Nemesis failed because it was badly conceived, badly written and, unless the masses of cut material had any worth, horribly structured. Oh and the cast were all embarrassingly old for the sort of story they were acting in!
Like a lot of people, Insurrection lost Berman any good will I felt towards TNG and his other Treks.
I walked out of Nemesis and, in my head, removed all traces of Berman Trek from my personal ‘canon.’ TNG Trek and beyond became a separate universe that happened to share a name. Effectively I disavowed it!
For me Star Trek was now TOS, TAS, and TMP to TUC. From now on, the last time I saw Kirk was when he was sat on the bridge of the Enterprise-A with his real crew. It was very refreshing to regard TNG onwards as a separate universe!
And I know people go on about DS9 and Voyager movies, but the public never really embraced those shows and a movie would have been met with: ‘I probably won’t see that, because I never watched that series!’
TNG should have stayed on TV and had more changes of cast and more changes of production staff, like most ensemble series do. Trouble is, because Trek had an active movie franchise, they all stayed entrenched on the show in the hope they could get megabucks in the movies.
Anyway, with Berman gone, there’s the hope that TNG/Enterprise-era Trek can get some straight-to-DVD movies (a totally Manny Coto-run Enterprise film would be intriguing!) The later Treks really belong on TV. There’s nothing wrong with them not really being suitable for cinema. Warners have got into straight-to-DVD and we’ve got the new Bab 5 films, so we can but hope!!!
Let’s hope TOS-redux is wonderful on the big screen and some interesting people do some good stuff with small-screen straight-to-video Trek.
Yeah, I know Dennis Bailey is on here, but as long as we are talking about good Trek, in particular TNG… my favorite episode is “Tin Man,” the soundtrack from the score by Jay Chattaway is almost playing constantly when I am working on the computer.
The reason Nemisis failed in my opinion is simple. For a Trek, or any SF film to make real money it needs repeat business. As well as good word of mouth publisity. Nemisis had neither. The film was basicly bad. It had a few good moments but basicly sucked.
LLAP
For me the main problem of Nemesis isn’t the lame story, the huge plot holes or the cut character moments nor the action orientation.
Granted that are all serious problems which I dislike BUT that Picard WASN’T Picard at all cause he was so damn out of character that he acts like Rambo in driving at high velocity on a prewarp culture planet and loughing.
Then flying a shuttle thew the Scimitar although he knows not even how to control the damn thing and Data could have done that 1000 times better and knew.
And finally beam alone to the Scimitar and shoot some warrior race dudes alone who cannot even hit the Scimitar while staying in front of it.
There was even a scene where Picard is shooting with two pulse rifles at a whole bunch of these Nosferatu/Orc dudes while Data is like R2D2 opening the door.
That Picard is humorously yelling at Data isn’t much help - damn was that stupid.
Again there are Riker and Worf shooting whole generations of the Reman losers that I thought there were Star Wars Storm Troopers - Anything like this was not in any Star Trek movie before.
Now we can get to the story.
As said here before ;) cause of B4 the whole Data death scene was more than unnecessary.
It would have been better to let him live than to cheat the audience in a way everyone noticed.
Without that backdoor it would have been cool but since it was Picards Nemesis I thought he should have been killed - that would have make an impact!
I would have put in the cut scenes especially the Picard/Data Chateau Picard scene and would have cut the Buggy chase and B4 stuff.
If this Shinzon dude should take the power over Romulus had shown how Reman troops taking power in Romulus at least briefly.
One big story problem is the Scimitar - where die he get this thing?
How could he build it unnoticed with a bunch of slaves without much resources, tech or knowledge?
There are many more huge plot problems but I will try to shorten my post.
There are on the other hand a couple of cool things on this one.
First comes to mind the terrific Enterprise/Scimitar crash which looks amazing and I haven’t seen anything like it yet.
I thought that Shinzon was way too much a badguy character but Tom Hardy has done a good job portraying him.
Also Patrick Stewart has put of some great scenes but he has not stand up to correct the flaws of Picards characterization.
Some of the Picard/Shinzon scenes were well played and written - I liked them.
The music was good and the Data flying in space scene was as much fun to me as the exploding screen of the Enterprise.
And a couple of good ideas/improvements like the forcefield for the warp core (about time ;)) and the destroyed self destruction.
It is astonishing, and perhaps revealing of Berman’s lack of deep talent and insight that he does not understand what went wrong with this sad effort. As soon as Picard and crew got in that buggy and put on those Oakley shades, my heat sank with the weight of ridicule that started to build from then on. The casting of a villain with a wealy bad Monty Python lisp, a starship cwumpled…er crumpled like tin foil by a slow collision (yet immensely strong enough to withstand the accelerative forces of warp speeds and fields that can tear/space time) and that embarrising data/superman space flight…then there’s the plot holes as discussed on top of that and overall poor direction, and just too much of TNG era Berman flavoured Trek. Patrick Stewart and all the regulars’ great acting talent at least scraped the best they could from the dire direction and script.
I haven’t read all the posts yet so forgive me if this is covered territory…
Rick Berman was a decent producer and is responsible for some great Star Trek through the years. But he’s also responsible for some of the worst.
It’s not that Kirk died in Generations that was so bad, it’s that it was an awful death with no impact at all.
Insurrection is another stinker, and this is part of why Nemesis failed - low expectations…
But he’s kidding himself if he’s confused about Nemesis failing. It just wasn’t very good. Filled with super inflated egos trying to hog film time, by casting themselves in dual roles, and having clones of themselves control the Romulan Empire. There is so much that is cringe worthy about this movie… Reeeeeeeediculous.
Doug
It needed more dune buggies
Re: Josh T. etc. Esquire
You have made a topic about a lame movie very entertaining and made some very good points along the way. Thank you.
Rick Berman doesn’t get it. He wrecked the entire franchise, and he’s wondering what went wrong with the LAST movie he did? Sheesh.
I think it was just a matter of Trek fatigue. The shows never seemed to evolve. I could watch Voyager and get a TNG vibe. I could watch Enterprise, which I thought had the best characters (besides Archer) in years, and that bland music would kick in and I would get a TNG vibe. I’d watch Ds9, and just when things would get cooking, I would sense a TNG vibe. Modern Trek came out of an assembly line that seemed to have a certain playbook that was followed when it came to everything from direction to stories to sound fx and set design. After awhile, for your average movie goer and tv watcher, all these shows began to blur together and it was hard to differentiate one from another..and they just weren’t that good. By the time Nemesis hit the screens, the mainstream was lost and the small die- hards in fandom just couldn’t make it a success. I think the same thing applied to Enterprise and it’s ultimate downfall. As they say, familiarity breeds contempt….and modern Trek had became way too familiar and ultimately un-interesting.
#11. Buckaroohawk
B-I-N-G-O… Bingo… right on the money!
Josh T (et al)
Absolutely priceless… I’m crackin’ up… chuckles & chortles over coffee…
Your well-known loathing of all non-TOS Star Trek notwithstanding, I commend you on the right balance of humor and intelligence with the appropriate sprinkle of “bite” thrown in. Very entertaining.
I gotta be honest… I do enjoy reading your insights… just continue to keep it clean with no mean.
53. YARN - March 1, 2007
It needed more dune buggies
Actually, it needed less dune buggys, heck no dune buggys at all, especially the Argo buggy, it made it seem less credible to most viewers that in the 24th century, they still used wheeled buggies! Sure you need the shuttle to get to the surface, but you don’t need a dune buggy to get around, especially when hovercrafts by then would be considered old technology, whilst wheeled vehicles much more antiquated.
And one key failure to Nemesis btw, is the poor choice of release date, had they avoided Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (I’m pretty sure someone must have been aware of it’s release date ahead of time) then maybe it may have at the very least, recovered it’s budget expense. Heck most people will see a movie if there’s no other good releases around the time it’s released.
So regardless of the plot, in the first few weeks or it’s release, it should’ve garnered enough cash to get into the green.
It was quite clearly edited so badly that if there was a coherent script in the first place the final product was just a badly linked sequence of action scenes.
I saw a pictorial synopsis that best discribes Nemesis’s many overwhelming flaws that put it on a equal footing as The Final Frontier in the worst Trek movie ever stakes(so far)
found it… I don’t how best to post links here so …
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-1.html
It wasn’t Trek fatigue. It sucked. Berman should have been fired 10 years earlier, and THAT is why Trek failed. It may be a case of too little too late, but as others have stated, Berman is the past now. His legacy will be as the guy who ruined Star Trek. The guy who was handed the golden goose and cooked it.
Berman never created anything on his own. He leetched a career off of someone else’s work.
Abrams has an advantage in that he HAS created successful things on his own. And unlike Berman, Abrams actually seems to care about the original series. Unlike Berman, Abrams is embracing it, not trying to destroy it.
Abrams may not be able to undo what Berman did. But I’m glad he’s at least going to give it a go.
Berman is no longer important. He is no longer news. And that’s probably the best thing to happen to Trek in a long time.
Enjoy your “Nexus” ribbon isolation Rick, I know I am… :P
The fact that Berman can’t figure out what went wrong is all the argument ones needs to make sure he never gets another crack at it. He’s out of it.
Rick, Let me offer a few reasons why “Nemesis” failed. There are a number of reasons but at the top of the list is that fact that the film had a depressing visual “sameness” that didn’t compel audiences into thinking there was anything fresh about it. The same production designer, the same writers, the same producers, the same made-on-a-studio-budget look and feel as everything Trek for the previous 15 years. This at a time when Lord of the Rings and Star Wars (for all their perceived faults) were offering expansive vistas, imaginative effects and densely layered imagery. These were films pulling out all the stops to wow audiences and Nemesis, in comparison, just didn’t offer enough “wow”. Compare the Romulan senate set, for example, to the visual of the Republic Senate in Star Wars. Nemesis simply looked CHEAP (despite all the boasts about it’s SCALE).
Another big problem was a script that seemed desperate to please fans and calculated to target demographics rather than tell a story. The moment I saw that damn RV thing, for example, I immediately imagined the production meeting at Paramount where you and a bunch of bean counters said, “Hey, is there a way we can get NASCAR fans to go to this thing?” The whole thing seemed written around vague directives like “we need a villain as good as Khan!” “It needs to be darker!” “It needs to be edgier!” It was a movie created by a group of people who seemed more concerned with keeping their cushy JOBS than in creating a great story. Nemesis seemed like a PRODUCT, not a movie — and audiences can smell when they’re being sold something inauthentic. Nemesis was inauthentic to Star Trek. It said nothing about the human condition, it offered no philosophy, it offered none of the Roddenberry magic that has made Trek a cultural icon for decades. Put simply, it was poorly written, directed and produced. The humor was lame, the visuals were bland, the plot was confusing, and the whole thing just smelled stale.
I could go on and on about why this film stunk, but I think my initial reaction leaving the theater sums up how many Trek fans felt. As the credits began to roll, my wife and I quickly exited the theater. We didn’t listen to the music or hang around discussing what we liked about the film — we wanted to get the hell out of there. And my first comment upon getting outside was to say, “God, I used to LOVE this show!”
If Abrams’ movie fails - not likely, but possible - trekkies will immediately line up twenty deep to share their carefully-considered expert opinions on exactly why. And it won’t mean anything then, either.
Here’s my two quotloos’ worth…
Nemesis is a muddy film with a good film somewhere in it. Yes, the director made BIG mistakes. Levar Burton recalls Baird constantly calling him Leroy. Is that a slip of the tongue, or a director who just doesn’t care or respect his people? I think it’s the latter, judging from the sheer number of continuity gaffs in this movie. We have a NEW twin android with never a mention of Data’s OTHER twin android. We have sensors that now give exact locations of things a buzillion light years away. We have an evile superweapon that takes long enough to activate so that the plot can dance right around it.
But, I think the most telling part about Nemesis’ failure is Berman’s insistance that “studio tracking” predicted a success. He flew this one by the numbers and it shows. This is a formulaic movie. There is nothing new here. Don’t even get me started on how old the cast looks while playing the same young roles. Fat Data? Troi in a nightie (why couldn’t they have done that years earlier???? And then there are the endless ‘fly-by’ shots, edited as if they were the first we’d ever seen. My little daughter turned to me in the first half hour and said “This is boring.” And it was.
So much for brevity. Ha. I feel strongly about this question.
My first post, so I’ll be brief:
Berman doesn’t understand what Shakespeare knew 400 years ago.
Good story drama requires good AND evil for conflict.
Trek movie success has correlated directly with that formula.
TMP - boring story - sold because of honeymoon period
TWOK - great story - Kahn was good at evil.
TSFS - so-so story -
TVH - great story - no evil …exception to rule
TFF - What if Paramount threw a movie and no writer showed up?
TUC - good story - decent drama
Gen’s - patchwork story - tedious
FC - good story - Borg was ultimate evil (until Voyager PC’d them)
Insurrection - was there a story?
Nemesis - Nothing says plaguarism best like ripping off your own history
(kill/rebirth of Spock/Data).
JJA understands good drama, XI should be rewarding.
Berman doesn’t, as can be seen in much of his work.
#64 “trekkies will immediately line up twenty deep to share their carefully-considered expert opinions on exactly why. And it won’t mean anything then, either.”
And the opinions of self-appointed experts working on fan films are the most meaningless of all.
Sorry guys but I agree with an early poster–no one gave it a chance. I went on opening day to the 7 PM showing. I was one of four people in the room. The big mob was at Maid in Manhatten.
At one point when Stewart and Hardy were talking (and talking) I became aware that the film was boring me. So it was not without flaws.
The death of Data hurt the film. The lack of involvement by the supporting cast, especially Geordie, hurt the film. But Insurrection hurt the franchise a lot more.
I love TNG but the last two films were not great. Yet it may not have mattered. Too much lousy Trek (DS9, VOY, ENT) killed the franchise and Nemesis had no chance.
And Berman needs to wake up and smell the Tranya. He’s done.
Nemesis was just a very bad story. It was a rehash of stuff from the other trek films thrown together to make an incoherent story. The villian was pulled out of a hat. Basically the movie was Voyager with the TNG cast.
The Berman Era had its ups and downs, but ask yourself this: Is Star Trek better off than it was 20 years ago? In terms of its vitality, no. But, if you’re the type of fan that wants massive amounts of content, then yes. However you approach that question, Abrams has a lot of work ahead of him in bringing the franchise back to strength.
To clarify, my comment above was not a knock on TNG or DS9- I was focusing on the over-exposure of the franchise.
Nemesis;what happens when you make a movie for fanboys…the few fanboys that TNG had went to see it and no one else.
Lord Garth sayith Rick Berman go get JJ a latte and have his Bentley washed and shut up. Lord Garth is tired of even discussing his extremely lame vision of Star Trek and grows nauseated at those few who still defend him. Lord Garth feels Babylon 5 carried on the real meaning, vision and feel of Star Trek during the Next gen era. Rich Berman, Lord Garth proclaims you be banished as a topic of discussion and spend the rest of your days in hollywood obscurity. All of us have much more happy and positive things to discuss as real Star Trek is finally back where it belongs
Lord Garth also gives kudos to Josh T and will have Martia dance for him!!!
PS this is what will happen if you make Trek xi for trekkie canon freaks and the people who can’t separate the actors from the characters.
I dunno, Rick…maybe it sucked because…
IT HAD NO FREAKIN’ GOOSENECKS™ in it!!!!
Nah, it would have sucked even with Gooseneck Viewers™.
Not even Goosenecks™ could have saved Nemesis!
*waves hand over keyboard, hears sound, and logs off*
Lord Garth.You’ve replaced Hitch
#47 Dave-
One cannot blame Nemesis’ failure on Insurrection. I’ll always agree with Frakes when he comments that he thinks it was a wonderful film. It was also the one thing that many tight-ass trekkies seemingly don’t get- ENTERTAINING, which NEM was not. And to anyone who thinks Insurrection “didn’t have a story,” I’d ask simply- were you paying attention?? Nemesis had a horribly written and a nonsensical plot. It, thankfully, also breaks the “odd/even curse.”
HA!
WHAT I REMEMBER ABOUT NEMESIS IS THE THERE WAS A HELL OF A LOT MORE PEOPLE IN LINE FOR LORD OF THE RING THAN FOR NEMESIS AND THIS WAS ON THE FIRST DAY!
Wow I am going to post although I am not sure anybody will read this far down the post chain… Anyways. The reason Nemesis failed… are you ready… to much Star Trek! I think it was Berman or Braga themeselves who said it in the recent history channel special that everyevery hour of the day 24/7 there is a Star Trek series or movie being shown somewhere in the world. Hmmm let us think about this from the standpoint of not die hard fan boys (movie looks hysterical) and try and step back. I can go to my television at most times of the day where I live and find TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY or ENT to watch. Point blank Star Trek hit an incredible high in the mid 90’s they had a movie in the works (Generations) which combined both crews. They had just wrapped TNG after a 7 year run with a wonderful ending. DS9 was on the air and had some steam to it and in order to launch a new network they were creating Voyager. Wow look at all that going on at one time. Naturally the general public could care less when Star Trek Nemesis comes out. I am a teacher and the majority of my students where like didn’t that movie come out already or hey I saw that on TV. No one was like oh yay a new adventure with Picard and Co. save the die hards who will go no matter what in the hope of greatness on the big screen. Other factors played into the gradual decine in the populatiry of Star Trek to this point as well. I am going to say is right now and I know some people in here are going to get very very upset with me and probably decide to respond harshly. A big failing of Star Trek is called Canon! Here is the deal you have wrapped your claws so tightly around this thing called canon that whenever some truly new and interesting concept comes along you want to kill it with a bloody knife called the internet. This new movie will probably be a Kirk/Spock young days academy movie and it might have the romulans in it as well. Romulan war maybe? Well I can already see people taking shots at the Kirk/Spock prequel concept all over the internet because its quote “So far from cannon that its almost Star Wars-ish”… Well I say this in the most loving way get a clue. Star Trek is dieing and if this movie tanks at the box office we will never get new eppisodes outside the remastered which I am hoping they treat all the series at least TNG to as well. The movie will TANK and with it Star Trek will be a memory. I love the great bird of the galaxies vision I love it. The man was a genius he created TOS and TNG which are two shows very similarly themed in two different era’s and that was that. You can not keep making movies and TV shows (Enterprise) with that same formula. You can’t! In this day and age Sci - Fi has gotten edgier and sexier than ever before. If you want proof of that look at the hugely popular Battlestar Galactica (Which I love far more than and series save maybe DS9 & TOS and yes I love Star Trek). Regular people who are not the die hards that made up the miniscule numbers for Nemesis don’t want tight spandex suits anymore and flamboyantly unreal plots. Real people want to see REAL drama, not the drama from TNG but more the core character drama from DS9. That is why DS9 didn’t do so well. “Its to dark…” “They aren’t on a ship.” “Half the cast isn’t starfleet.” are just some of the complaints about DS9 which I find to be some of its more enduring aspects. TV shows have become serialized and long drawn out plot arcs are good look at every popular show on television. Dark and edgy is good look at every popular show on television, and by god man you need to change to formula every so often to make it new, fresh and more than just recycled. You canon fodder people which I will forever refer to you as complain about Nemesis being to much like Khan but then when they try and do something new and inovative like put a series on a station instead of a ship you go ballistic. Well here is the deal and I hope you are getting this. The well of Star Trek as it was in the 60’s and 90’s is dried up. You have done everything concievable in that universe by god you have almost 700 hours of TV and movies to prove it. Move on now… Move on… It is time to make drastic changes if you want this franchise to live (Gene Roddenbery might roll in his grave) but that is what you need. Do a movie or series after Nemesis by several years in which we see all that we have established as sacred being lost. Blow up the Earth if you have to (sorry Gene) and show us what happens to our quaint little Trek if starfleet is turned into a rag tag group of ships just trying to protect what they have left. Hell maybe you could introduce a new villian who is truly evil not just “misunderstood” as trek tends to do with its villians. Maybe you could do something completely off guard and make it a close ally / member of the federation who does it. You don’t need to keep re working old ideas, that is why Nemesis tanked and I hope to god above that J.J. knows this because Berman sure didn’t. Please, please, please give us something fresh hell I will write it for you as I write and direct independant film. And to the fans I am sorry but if you want the franchise to stay alive you need to stop whining about canon and let them be creative for a change.
Aaron Ringewold
Writer/Director
Stage/ Independant Film
P.S. Sorry about all the typos I know must be up there I got real heated in my typing and frankly I don’t care or wish to pretend to care. Have a great day live long and prosper.
Thank you # 79….
P.S. I love you die hards I just feel a change is needed or Star Trek will not generate new fans it needs to stay alive.
Aaron
Nemesis failed because it was bad! I suspect the usually when a Trek film comes out some people would see it more than once perhaps once on their own then once with the family but when they didn’t like it, why would they go again and subject the family to it?
#81-Your comments didn’t make me angry, but as a teacher, don’t you think you should at least spell words correctly? A lot of what you say is true. I will say this: if the movie has a huge budget and if all this hype is as big as I think it is going to be, if the movie bombs, Star Trek is OVER! DEAD!!! In the eyes of Paramount, it will no longer be feasible to invest money in. That will be a horrible moment. Let’s hope it never happens.
As I said Jim I was in a hurry and wanted to post I didn’t take the time to even read it over before posting. I got that heated… I know tisk tisk bad science teacher bad… :)
Last night I had this major diatribe as to why nemesis failed- then the server crashed!
In a nutshell:
Not too much Trek- it was just sucky Trek.
The TNG crew wasn’t the problem; it was a TNG film after all.
Lord of the rings wasn’t the problem: after all, a Jennifer Lopez chick flick made more money than Trek 10.
The problems were the B4 sub plot, the B4 Easter Egg hunt, the mis-cast Shinzon, the failed attempt to re-gurgitate The Wrath of Khan by someone who apparently has more creative energy when it comes to Gladiators, the Bad Guy ship starting to have a Death Star moment right before it goes Genesis, Data’s attempt after attempt to sacrifice himself, the over the hill Enterprise crew going head to head against a race far more tougher than the Jem Hadar… and this week’s morality lesson: aspiration.
There was just so much working against this film… and none of it had to do with anything outside the picture itself.
Nemesis failed pure and simple, it was Star Trek in name only. Fans and
non-fans alike love a good film, This movie has not a single frame of
memorable dialogue or visuals. The script wasn’t any good and neither were the production or direction. It failed on all accounts. This is what happens
when you let suits make actual decisions instead of making them sit in a
corner and nod their heads. Berman made this film for himself not the fans.
He did the same to “enterprise”. No matter how bad it got he couldn’t figure
out why the fans no longer wanted to partake in what he was serving. Not
wishing to take constructive criticism he let the lastest incarnation destroy
itself and then stand back and blame it on fan fatigue. HOGWASH!
He and the others at Paramount made very bad decisions and wouldn’t
admit it. Its a pity that Star Trek and the fans had to suffer for someone’s
ego. The proof is that Star Trek will survive no matter how numbskulls
like Berman try to kill it.
If J.J. Abrams can somehow and in some way mix the first two Trek films together stylistically, conceptually, visually, and spiritually, and find the connective appropriate balance between the two, we will have a Trek film of epic proportions that should make some waves at the box office.
Star Trek: The Motion Picture - unprecedented visuals unmatched in many ways even today, an epic almost Homer inspired odyssey, a serious take on Trek, not campy, a positive message
Star Trek- The Wrath of Khan - Jeopardy. Drama. People drove the story, not events unlike the first film. That’s not a criticism, just an observation that the narrative was the polar reverse. Very human characters that we can relate with. Fantastic dialogue.
If you combine ththose attributes of those two films, it should be the right balance to appease any type of Trek fan, and even a movie going audience that enjoys entertainment.
Also, I hate to say it, in direct contrast to canon and continuity buffs, but make the film a one off encapsulated self sustained film. Don’t make a film hanging on and hinging on potential sequels. Don’t get caught up or mired in what happened 17 years ago in episode 32 of such and such, just tell a story , make it alive, and make it entirely dependent on itself. That approach isn’t disregarding canon, but there is also no need for established canon to jump out at you every 7 seconds pointing itself out and confusing John and Jane film goer.
Lord Garth does not trust those named John who spell it Jon.
Jon Jonz , the Martain Manhunter is also like Lord Garth formerly of Izor, a shapeshifter.
Sorry I offend you so
Just read post #29, hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha that’s the best and sums it up far better than any of us could. Josh T for Imperial Senate!!!
The center of Trek is “charm”. Affection for the characters. You may say what you want about Insurrection, but it was loaded with charm and heart. Nemesis was caricature driven, instead of character driven, and more than a little forced.
Make Voyager movie !!!!
There’s a game you can play where you can ‘end’ a film before it starts. Shallow Grave is an example: hide the money and phone the police to say your roommate’s dead! The ambulance takes away the body.Then you split the money and leave the country!! No one has to die!
Nemesis is another example: Shinzon escapes Romulus/Remus and tells the Federation he’s a clone of Picard. He says he needs a complete blood transplant to survive. Jean-Luc says ‘ok’ and, across a few weeks donates eight pints of blood, assuming the Enterprise doesn’t already have a store of it’s captain’s blood in case of emergencies! Shinzon walks off happy and can do whatever he wants! No need for Soong robots. No need for Data to die!
Ultimately the film is just plain silly.
BTW, I dunno if this post will appear: the posts from my work PC only sporadically appear at the mo!!
Don’t make Voyager movie - please!!!
There is so much hate toward Rick Berman going on here, give the guy a break. He kept Trek alive the best he could when Gene died, thats a pretty daunting task and he did a damn good job giving us three additional Trek series. Some of the crazy fans are so ignorant, want everything perfect, and need someone to blame for mess up’s. Just live with it and enjoy all the Trek we have gotten for the last 40 years! So in the end, THANK YOU RICK BERMAN!!! Thanks for all you have done for Star Trek!
I won’t thank Berman for what “HE” did for Trek, I’ll thank him for the talented people he hired to write the stories. Gene got Next Gen off to a good start, so there wasn’t much he could have done to screw up that roller coaster…although, Next Gen did start to show some later Trek series characteristics in the final season.
I found that after Next Gen, Trek tried too hard to be hip and cool. I really hated the emphasis on coffee…Klingon Cappuccino was an eye roller. They played the characters as if they were contemporary folk in jumpsuits. I always believed that Kirk and Picards crew were future humans…not so with later seasons of DS9, Voyager and Enterprise.
Actually, I’m surprised that nobody blames Gene for the downfall of Trek. He is the one who chose Berman afterall.
I have to laugh at the venum on this site. Too much Trek yeah yeah, by people who are on record as hating anything that is not TOS.
I’m not a big fan of Bregga and Berman but they did keep Trek alive, I’m of the opinion they should have handed the reins to someone else, proberly around the time of Voyager. But don’t forget they alone were not the cause of a lot of the problems that Trek had. Paramount itself was one of the biggest challenges Trek has always faced. And another problem Trek has also had to contend with is so-called “Fans”.
That message is border line rude trevok. You should never presume to call some one a “so called fan” whom you have never met before in your life. You don’t know how many shelves of Trek stuff they have on display or don’t. Just a thought.
Aaron
Mr. Berman can’t figure out why Nemesis failed? Perhaps that’s why Paramount finally released him from his duties as head of Star Trek. Please, plass this message along to Mr. Berman. Nemesis failed at the box office because you made a terribly derivative film. It was uninspired. It didn’t just borrow elements from Star Trek II, it stole them wholesale. Star Trek should be about creativity, not endlessly re-hashing the same tired plot devices. It’s a shame because I love Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner and the Next Generation cast. I’d love for them to get the proper movie they deserve.
Many of you, especially Josh T, etc. really have to THANK Berman for what he has done. I mean,what else would you find to rant on?(with restraint of course) #26,28,29,33,36…
Berman kept things alive and good Trek going, as Trevok in #99 said… not good all the time but as much as TOS I’d say.
Not all of you like it, oh well.
Here is a question for anyone else to respond too -since we are talking about nemesis and have already listed 70+ notions of why it failed- Did anyone else feel that after watching the trailer for Nemesis for the first time that Lore was going to be back in the storyline again.
The first time I saw that shot of the 2 Brent Spiner’s that was what i remember hoping for, a fitting conclusion to that story arc (since how they tried to finish it in TNG the series was very, very weak). Play up the “Cain and Abel” aspect of it all if u will. Have it where Dr. Soong’s greatest mistake (Lore) ended up being responsible for the death of his greatest accomplishment (Data).
#59
“Actually, it needed less dune buggys, heck no dune buggys at all, especially the Argo buggy, it made it seem less credible to most viewers that in the 24th century, they still used wheeled buggies!”
On the contrary! Wheels help movies. Think of all the movies you have seen that have wheels in it. I dare you. You can’t have a car chase without wheels and what is a movie without a good car chase? I imagine that the Enterprise would have also have wheels on it, although I imagine it would be a tripod-type arrangement. Look, people like Trek and they love ATV’s . Add the two together and it is a sure-fire formula! I mean, Haven’t we always wanted to see Capt. Picard bouncing around in a 20th century dune buggy firing plastic rifles? I know I sure have. They just needed more off-road adventure to make it work. Well, that and more obvious “homages” (no one dared say plagiarism) to STII. NOTE: Your irony sensor is apparently out of alignment so allow me to say I am only joking here.
As for the gripe that everyone was lined up for LOTR on opening day, let’s just say that the fact that the film wasn’t that good didn’t help things either. People sensed that there was a better film to see and guess what, they were right. Regardless of whether it was the poor marketing, the strong competition, or the “evil sell-out” fans, the film deserved to fail, which it did. Heaven forbid that it had actually made money resulting in them churning out more Trek films just like it.
Lord Garth™ is one of my favorite characters from TOS. I’m honored to have been mentioned in the same category as the witty individual playing him on the interweb.
and to whoever said, “Nemesis seemed like a PRODUCT, not a movie — and audiences can smell when they’re being sold something inauthentic. Nemesis was inauthentic to Star Trek. It said nothing about the human condition, it offered no philosophy, it offered none of the Roddenberry magic that has made Trek a cultural icon for decades.”
perfect.
BEST!!
=h=
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news07/070301f.php
Maybe there’s hope for those of you who like TNG and beyond after all. Hopefully some solid new producers and writers could come in and do something interesting with the other Treks.
Perhaps an Enterprise DTV film entirely run by Manny Coto . . .
Oh poor Berman. How does someone who seems to not get most things manage to get to be so rich? I knew I should have taken accounting. But hey, even I can come up with a better reason for Nemesis failing without hyperbole or silly guesses, like maybe it was the director or release date. Here goes…
Nemesis wasn’t a so-so film, it was a B-Movie. Sure, it had great FX, but so did Wing Commander. The problem with Nemesis was that it was boring unless you were 12. Good guy, bag guy, big running battle. Everything else was backdrop.
That movie is a renter at best.
Besides, no one cared for Insurrection too, mainly because it was just like an ep of TNG. Just as the audience had seen the B-Movie (when they were 12) so too had they seen TNG.
Movies cost, like, $10 a ticket. Goddess help you if you get popcorn. $$$
The competition in the movie house for a small audience paying big bucks is tough. Nemesis wasn’t worth it for the average movie goer.
imho… of course. I live on an island!!! :D
Erm . . . is there a problem with the site? My comments keep on failing to appear. Have I done something wrong or has the site suddenly developed good taste? :( ;)
Lord Garth thanks you Hitch and promises to send my dagger wielding, mute Andorian and Tellerite henchman after our enemies. Now Marta dance for our friend lest he think we are inhospitable.
No. 105 Hitch: and to whoever said, “Nemesis seemed like a PRODUCT, not a movie” perfect.
That was me. And thanks. Great minds… ;-)
“The former Trek honcho just cannot figure out why it didn’t perform as well as he (and studio tracking) predicted:”
Bring fort de cluebat. Dis is the Treker heart. Dis is the Treker soul. It is, our way.
Poor writing, poor casting, poor science.
It starts with the crew picking up signs of positronic output half a galaxy away while they’re not even scanning for it. If it’s that easy to detect, the location of Data and the Enterprise need never be in doubt.
Then comes the horrible, screw-the-Prime-Directive buggy chase.
And it gets worse from there.
I hadn’t been so disappointed in the writing of Trek since Generations. It was a sad, sad way to wrap things up for such a brilliant cast. Frakes might have salvaged this.
Nemesis for being the Next Generation’s Last Big ha-rah, was less then epic. It was more like a two hour TV episode. The look, ,the pace and the acting all sucked. It was like lets just get this done. Off road race? Only Two Romulan Warbirds? Mighty Romulan senate looking like a town hall?
NO Federation ships? Vampires with bad manicures? B4? Troi’s google eyes? Pa-leeeeeese! Just too corny and lame for a Trek fan let alone the mainstream.
Sounds like only (some ) Next Generation fans saw this fanboy movie.
Nemesis was the the strongest Next Generation film. It was more dynamic and pulled off some hard things. It wasn’t as good as a TOS film (oh say Trek 2 or 6), but it was better than the awful 9th title. Rick Berman was the best thing to happen to Trek. He was able to manage Gene’s vision in a way that would work for a few hundred episodes of Star Trek television. I put Berman on a pillar higher than Rodberry. JJ is just putting a small an insignificant film that may work but will be the least remembered title. Rick rules bitches.
Nemesis needed a Mini-Shizon™ sidekick for the Bad Guy.
“I won’t blow up the Earth for a MILLION TRIBBLES! BAHAHAHAH!
# 90 Josh
I’ll give you credit when it is due.
I agree with everything you said in that specific post.
That’s outstanding!
I can see it now!
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Generation Next
Paramount Home theater division presents
a Rick Berman production/ in association with Brannon Braga entertainment
Starring Lou Diamond Phillips as Captain Vladmir Yon Boogles,
Louis Gossard Jr. as Commodre Wes “Buckly” Torbonimeire’
Jean Claude Van-Damme as Mister T’ highs
and introducing Corey Feldman and Corey Haim as the Andorian Power twins
special sneak cameo by Val Kilmer and the guy that did all “the substitute” films
Maybe that’s a fate deserving of Rick Berman
Nemesis was a rip of The Wrath of Khan, they killed of one of the major characters in no idea of ever bringing them back, meaning when the film came out everyone saying it was the last film. The last film should end happy note not on a sad one.
Actually, truth be known, I feel sort of sorry for die-hard TNG fans, truly now, they deserved MUCH better than Rick Berman to shepard their favorite show. Just the same way I feel sorry for Republicans, having to swallow their pride and reason, and continue to support George Bush and his crusade on Islam.
I mean it when I say, it truly must be a very difficult thing being an unabashed apologist. I certainly wouldn’t want the job and constant self rationalization, wow.
I submit that we cannot understand the failure of Nemesis without coming to terms with the fact that First Contact — the supposedly good TNG movie — was as unsuccessful a film as the rest. The joys of Picard and TNG simply have not translated well to the big screen.
I know everyone was glad to see a little ass-kicking. But listen, people: How can a movie whose conclusion is the farmer from “Babe” listening to Steppenwolf…a movie whose Troi and Riker get drunk for cheap comic effect…how can this possibly be worthy of the same film series that gave us the chills of Space Station Regula One–or Admiral Kirk on the ridge of a dying planet lamenting, “My God, Bones, what have I done”–or McCoy’s cleverly-conceived encounter with 20th century medicine? Of all that great screenwriting?
As a TOS fan, I have gradually come to a grudging acceptance of TNG as good television, but the movies have never captured what made episodes like “The Inner Light” or “Yesterday’s Enterprise” worth watching.
“Assimilate This?” Is that really Star Trek?
I suppose it couldn’t last….not about the politics, but about the Berman bashing.
Don’t feel sorry for fans of TNG. As a TNG fan, I don’t feel sorry for the product we had….because there was nothing wrong with the product until (1) they pissed off pretty much all previous Trek fans in Generations and then (2) pissed off TNG fans when they tried to change the spirit of TNG to appeal to non-TNG fans — reference, Nemesis. Still, that wasn’t the death knell of Star Trek….it was just bad product in the theatre. People can moan and whine all they want, it won’t change my enjoyment level of VOY or ENT.
Anyway, if Trek XI can manage to respect Canon by leaving established Canon alone, then I say more power to them. No need for constant references, etc. I don’t think many people will be sore if we don’t see Goose Neck viewers or 60’s bridge replicas. But a little license for creativity and modernization aside, that modicum level of respect for the history of Star Trek really needs to be there. Continuity and history is a strength, but if they can add to it without walking all over it, they’ll succeed in making the “Trek Universe” better.
Not this again… Why did it fail?
I agree the death of a major character, Rehash of TWOK, I never saw Worf as a TNG character anymore and I thought it was a disservice to the character as he was last seen on DS9. Its just a matter of coincedence that Worf happens to be run into the Enterprise for the last three films. .Thier was no hope. And a good film should have alot of hope even a Star Trek film. I think its way past time we move away from Goth Trek.
I had a choice during the month of December and I went to see LOTR first and because it has been nearly 4 years since INS I just didn’t care anymore.. I hate to say this but Two Towers looked cooler.The audience was getting older and the way they told thier stories was no longer challenging to its audience.
I felt what also went wrong was the scope of the film. I feel to rise of the challenge Star Trek should be epic. After 5 shows if you have a villain he or she needs to be grander in scale. Threatening just Earth just doesn’t convince me anymore and tells me the optimistic vision of the future just sucks.
It used to be a case these films were being thrown out every two or three years. The anticipation was there.
Paramount should hold the responsibilty for this outing as well for authorizing this garbage. Somewhere along the line they read the script thought fans would come out in droves and signed off on it.
I had high hopes because John Logan who had worked on Gladiator was doing this. After this and Star Trek V… I came to a conclusion Star Trek Fans should not be writing Star Trek films. Frivolous with Space battles and fan boy wet dreams moments who have no concept of writing a good sci fi story that challenges the audience and makes you think.
In my view Hollywood doesnt care that Science FIction is a metaphor.
I felt Nemesis has its moments but a bad script overshadowed it.After getting the DVD for 10 bucks the only thing that works is the deleted scenes. Berman is one of the worst people I’ve heard doing a DVD commentary, his voice puts you to sleep.
Not that I condone violence in any shape manner or form but using a tazer on this guy so this guy gets why Nemesis failed would be good start.hes going to be 90 and its STILL going to confound him what went wrong.
I agree with 121, TNG deserved better movies than it got.
well stong feelings all around. Nemesis was the first trek movie that I found I was bored half way through. I think that the producers, come up with a good story - except they wrote it in such a way that it was obviously based on ST2 WOK. WOK worked, NEM didn’t. They tried too hard, and editing it way to much. John Lennon worked that out….take a year and a day for an album and never be happy. Knock off a single in an hour, release it a week later and its a hit.
A big part of that for me was the ‘Braga style’. Braga has a distinct way of trek story telling. HisTNG episodes and the first few voyager eps were great, but then they style got old, and repetive for me. Not that there wern’t good stories and exceptions - Many Coto is evidence of that - just that Trek ooozed of Braga and Berman and it got old.
I am convinced Trek will be back, and more successful than ever. I hope Ira Stephen Behr gets to work on his Ds9 movie before everyone is too old to star in it. Kirk and Spock returning is great and it can all be good to re-energise the franchise. Peace
I can’t say much. I never saw Nemisis, nor Insurrection either, I had lost interest by then. In fact, I have barely skimmed this article, I don’t have much interest in dissecting Berman… I think Star Trek needs new blood regularly to keep from stagnating. Let’s hope Abram’s gives it a good shot in the arm and then get’s out before it gets stale again.
#60: Thanks for the link, that was absolutely hilarious. A great satirical synopsis of a truly awful movie.
Star Trek: Nemesis was an excellent edition to the Trek Universe, the problem was that it was put up against LOTR: The Two Towers, this wasn’t a smart move at all! I really feel that who ever made that decision at Paramount should take a step back, and learn from this mistake! Nemesis was a great movie!
There are many people who are giving specific reasons why Nemesis failed…dune buggys, Data, Wrath of Khan ripoff…etc etc. But in order for story points and plot development and other nitpicks of that nature to ruin a movie, they have to be spread by word of mouth. Well that takes time…and sadly, Nemesis sunk on its opening weekend. Word of mouth didn’t kill this movie because no one went to see it to begin with! Which only leaves the fact that no one wanted to see it, which only means the appetite for modern Trek was no longer there. The demise of Enterprise supports that. It could have been the best Trek movie ever made….but if no one has an interest to see it on it’s opening weekend, then it cannot and will not succeed.
It wasn’t the bad story, or the dune buggys, or the actor’s meddling with the script that killed Star Trek. Modern Star Trek killed modern Star Trek. Over the last two decades, the “sameness” of all the new Trek series has smothered the mainstream, plain and simple.
Please excuse the off-topic.
As you read and comment about the Enterprise and her crew, would you please take a moment of your time for another Enterprise.
Enterprise, Alabama USA and the area around there took a major hit on the city from a tornado. The school took a direct blow, killing many.
Your thoughts and prayers for them I am sure would be greatly appreciated.
Ok, you’ve all forced my hand: I’m putting my worthless 2 cents in the ring…
I see a lot of you going into great detail on what was wrong with the last Trek movie. Although most of the analysis of the movie is quite correct, it assumes that there was an audience there to watch the movie and subsequently find these faults in it.
The issue was that the audience never showed up - not even many of the Trek faithful.
For that reason, I agree with the “Too Much Trek” crowd. Although seriously flowed, Nemesis was not an order of magnitude worse than its predecessors. I think the potential audience for the movie had simply had enough of rather dissatisfying Trek shows and movies over the course of several years. Very little of it was *horrible*, but there wasn’t all that much memorable or worthwhile there, either.
And my final bit: why is it that every TNG movie felt like a TNG episode with better special effects?
#129: Great minds…
The word ‘Bad’ got taken out of my “Too Much (Bad) Trek” quote above. I think it’d be a different story if we’d had lots of exciting, innovative Trek being produced, instead of rehash after rehash.
#130: Other than the usual options (Red Cross, etc.) have any donation or relief sites been set up?
#134
I’ve not yet heard… but I think it would be fitting that a Trek group of some sort gave or donated relief to a city named Enterprise that really needs help.
I don’t think it’s global warming, I think the Cetacean probe is rapidly approaching Earth!
Womp Womp Womp Womp
131. omf - March 1, 2007
The issue was that the audience never showed up - not even many of the Trek faithful.
**********************
I don’t think that was the case; I think they showed up, but didn’t give the film the repeated viewings that larger films need for success.
I just wanted to mention that my appraisal of why Nemesis failed was never meant to be a rant against Berman himself. Thankfully, it doesn’t seem that anyone took it that way.
Personally, I have no real feelings toward Berman one way or another. Overall, I think he was a capable, if passionless, caretaker of the franchise. The only thing that bothers me is his apparent inability to look critically at the movies he oversaw. Enough time has passed that he should be able to watch Nemesis and know precisely why the film did not succeed. It’s all right there. If he can’t see it, then Trek is definitely better off without him now.
And thanks to those who responded to my earlier post, way up there near the top. I appreciate the feedback.
“Berman Can’t Figure Out Why Nemesis Failed”
And this reason alone is why we should rejoice that he’s not doing Trek any more.
I definately think it had something to do with the other films it was released against. Two 300 million dollar blockbusters tore through “Nemesis” like a Borg cutting beam. Oh well. I do hope we ‘ll see the Enterprise E fly once more. But I doubt it.
At least they’re relaunching Enterprise in book form.
With the level of FX work present in Nemesis I will be buying it on BluRay for sure.
I would love to see a “Phantom Edit” of Nemesis. Somewhere in that mess is a good movie dying to come out.
“Berman Can’t Figure Out Why Nemesis Failed”
Agreed. The title of the story was sarcastic comment alone. AP, you can’t get out of that dude.
Like saying neener neener neener to “Anna Nicole Can’t Figure Out Why She’s DEAD” Come on man. The snake may not want to acknlowedge that it’s a snake, but does it not bite with venom nonetheless?
Much in the same way that Berman is alot like the developmentally disabled like that the retarded do not understand their retardation.
However…
wait no however. and NO pontification here my friend. Lets get to the facts:
Berman says that Nemesis wasnt sucksexful. You have over 125 posts and box orafice agreeing with him. I don’t want to make way, Manny, because there is not a bad guy coming through. The Star Trek womb is so effing polluted… lets hope that our new baby ain’t a crack baby.
See what I am saying AP?
BREAST!!
=h=
Berman milked the franchise dry. He should have said “Voyager’s home. Lets take a break so we can get some time to process the old stuff, and make some good new stuff.” If anything is to be learned from the fact that no episodic Star Trek was produced from 1974 until 1987, its that it took that long for people to be ready to see something other than TOS, TAS, or a movie. And it took that long before a new group of writers was ready to step in and make it their own.
What we need now is to take a break. 20 years of non-stop Trek is a lot of episodes. That’s a lot of story, and I’m certainly not tired of it. I want to live with what’s made before warping to the same old crap repackaged. If its not going to be fresh, I don’t want it, and Berman is no longer capable of delivering fresh Trek.
To use a B5 analogy, Roddenberry was Lorien… the first one. Berman is the Vorlons… his time has past, and it’s time for him to get the hell out of our galaxy.
Nemesis wasn’t bad. If it had come 10 years earlier, it actually would have faired pretty well. It failed because it came when we needed to boldly go in a new direction, instead of the same old same old.
They should give Captain Kirk the Enterprise-E, my GOD can you imagine the havoc that man could cause in the universe with that ship. Kirk would be kicking much to do about ass all. Day. Long.
Paramount just announced tthis week that they are going to start making “direct to DVD” movies of old franchises (with Star Trek being one of the ones seriously being considered by them.) That gives hope hope of a TNG movie being made (if Stewert and all where willing). Voy, Ent or DS9 could also be made as Direct to DVD.
Personally, I would love a Sulu film!
I think there is one fundamental issue amongst all of this here that is being severely neglected and overlooked-
whatever happened to quality over quantity?
Yes, we have 10 motion pictures, 5 live action series, and 1 animated series, for a combined 28 seasons of television Star Trek, 20 hours of motion picture, and 2 seasons of animated Star Trek. But the question is, is that a GOOD thing?
You talk about milking a fat ass heffer. I mean damn.
Isn’t oversaturation part of the problem?
So now we are getting reportedly a Generation Y new animated series if it goes ahead, a new film, and now the prospect of direct to DVD films.
You talk about shitting all over the legacy of a once proud and noble intellectual property. How much milk can be suckled from this fat ass heffer before she falls over from dehydration???
Just when I thought Paramount MAY have actually learned a bit from the past 15 years, here they go whoring their Fat ass heffer out again to squeeze her for every red cent she can muster.
Gene man, wherever you are, whatever you are doing, don’t look. It’s horrible, and I apologize sincerely.
God BLESS George Lucas for not selling off Star Wars and keeping the property HIS and HIS alone.
Nemesis, just wasn’t an enjoyable Trek film to watch. It had no soul and no charm.
“sadly, Nemesis sunk on its opening weekend. Word of mouth didn’t kill this movie because no one went to see it to begin with! Which only leaves the fact that no one wanted to see it, which only means the appetite for modern Trek was no longer there. The demise of Enterprise supports that. It could have been the best Trek movie ever made….but if no one has an interest to see it on it’s opening weekend, then it cannot and will not succeed. It wasn’t the bad story, or the dune buggys, or the actor’s meddling with the script that killed Star Trek.”
Let’s suppose that there is a universe in which NEMESIS was not a lousy movie. Suppose it was, as you say, “the best Trek movie ever made”. If this were the case, it would have performed better on subsequent weekends and would have done very well on DVD. Word of mouth would have gotten out. Critical praise would have piqued the interests of fans who were afraid that it would be another lame “Insurrection” style Trek film. It would have inspired a following.
Part of the reason this film failed, a good part of the reason, is that it deserved to fail.
I’d like to hear more about these direct to DVD movies??? This is the first I heard of it. I’d rather see a television mini series event personally. I think this has more weight than a direct to dvd release…
It would be a bigger event - 3 nights - 2 hours each, like Roots or the Thornbirds or now that I think of it, the BSG mini before they launched the series. Big ad sales event, because it’s a one off with a built in audience, and then big DVD sales. It’s a different format for Trek and allows the producers to explore all areas, without the huge commitment from a cast that would be required from an ongoing series.
Doug
To anyone that felt insulted by my last post, I must say I’m sorry. But then again maybe I was a little too close for comfort where some people are concerned.
I’m with you doug.
Whew, I just knew this was going to be another l-o-n-g thread Anthony.
J.J. Abrams and writers, we’re relying on you, I hope you are taking notes…
Oh, and that goes for you too Paramount…and by the way a release date in the RUN UP couple of weeks to Christmas would have been great, and far better than an actual Christmas DAY release. Me and mine would have liked that better for the sake of family commitments.
Holy litany of comments Batman! Simple question, simple answer:
Bad writing (which cannot be compared at ALL to First Contact) put in context of miserable writing throughout the rest of the franchise. Oh - like its been pointed out already: quite a few disconnects with established character traits and “trek history.” Bad, bad bad. Given that.. where’s the motivation for the fans?
#147. Josh T
I can’t argue with your over-saturation assertion…
However, there are so many reasons why viewer-ship dwindled through VOY and ENT. The television landscape changed dramatically with the proliferation of cable and satellite content, alternate source material for home viewers, fractious viewing habits by the public, the internet… tunz ‘o’ reasons.
I won’t comment on the “quality” question of any incarnation of Star Trek because it is sooooooo subjective and whatever anybody enjoyed or didn’t… well, who gives a flying one, ya’ know? It’s over and done with.
The one thing that I think you are off the mark on is your apology. Hysterical hyperb