Shatner: No ‘Star Trek’ Cameo For Me October 29, 2007
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: ST09 Cast, Shatner , trackbackIn case you were wondering, William Shatner is still not happy that he has not been asked to be in the new Star Trek film. When asked by MovieWeb if he had a cameo role he denied it, and went on to say:
I would be reluctant to do something that had so little value as to be a cameo. I’m disappointed that the story that they chose to do does not include the character I play, having been in on the birth of Star Trek, I would love to have been in on the rebirth or the resuscitation of it. The fact that I’m not is a disappointing and I think a foolish business decision on their part. Somebody decided how to play their story and they’re knowledgeable people and wonderful entertainers so we’ll see what happens.
The Shat heard round the world
These comments are similar to Shatner’s statement last week to the AP, although he upgraded ‘unwise’ to ‘foolish.’ As predicted, the AP story went far and wide. It was reported on TV, the print press and the online media in hundreds of locations. Of course each outlet is allowed to add their own spin, especially in the headline. Most went with something simple, like “Shatner Not Aboard for New ‘Star Trek’,” but some got a bit more creative:
Washington Post: Beam Him Out of the Picture
CBS News: Star Trek to boldly go without Shatner
News24 (South Africa): Kirk boldly going nowhere
Boston Herald: Exclusion from ‘Trek’ flick irks original Captain Kirk
The West Austrailian: Capt Kirk misses out on new Star Trek
CTV (Canada): Canadian Bill Shatner shut out of Star Trek flick
BBC (UK): Shatner sad over Trek movie snub
New York Post: Kirk Jerked
…but Shatner’s news has brought him an offer for a new role. A Craig’s List post offers the original Kirk a role in film called “Fraternity Escorts.” It begins:
Dear Mr. William Shatner,
The Enterprise may no longer want you… but a new enterprise does! We’d like to beam you up for a cameo role in FRATERNITY ESCORTS, a new raunchy college comedy about a group of Animal House-esque misfits who learn to turn tricks for wealthy Beverly Hills women in the hopes of raising forty grand needed to avoid eviction.
…so there is a silver lining after all.
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Comments»
i’m ok with shat not in it.
Dammit Bill, it’s not all about you!
This upsets me. He should realize that this isn’t a business decision, it’s a story decision, and the story can’t be about him anymore. It’s being given to a brand new generation.
This sounds like MovieWeb was standing in line directly behind AP and got virtually the same answer. As for whether Shat should or shouldn’t be in the movie.. Don’t make me pull out the red velour undies, folks. I will. You know I will.
Dignity, thy name is Shatner. :lol:
This puts him in accord with the producers of the movie, who say they don’t want to put him in it unless it’s a meaningful role and not just a cameo. So therefore, “old Kirk” isn’t a meaningful part of the movie, so they haven’t asked Shat to be in it. So what he’s really upset about is that there isn’t a whole lot of “old Kirk” who could only be played by himself in the movie.
If they can make it meaningful, I want Shatner to be in it, but I don’t want them trying to shoehorn “old Kirk” in either.
it is a biz decision. shatner is not necessary. everybody knows it but him. i love the guy… but let it go.
Of course it would be nice if Shatner had a sizable, meaty role.
If would be nice, just to have him in it.
But it’s also entirely possible to write a great script, assemble a great cast, and not have Shatner in it. I would go so far as saying, that maybe – just maybe, Star Trek can do fine without him.
What’s bugging me (as a long time fan of both the Shat and Star Trek) is the unprofessional whining… or at least the appearance of whining. He hasn’t said anything negative other than not being included, and yet the press continuously build it up to be something written about. Shatner’s not helping.
I’d much rather read the quote ‘No comment’, and leave it at that.
The last section of his quote seems to be his way of throwing a bone to the producers…if he’s not in the final film, we, the fans still acknowledge his importance to the franchise.
I believe the story will bring in new fans, and reinvigorate Star Trek, but that won’t keep me looking for Mr. Shatner on every single frame of the movie…
Not having William Shatner in this would be like,, trying to fry eggs,, with no egg.
Come on JJ,, Get Shatner !!
This is getting old. I’m firmly in the camp that Abrams & Co. have conspired with Shat for a top-secret cameo; that being said, Shatner’s continual denial is getting annoying. Abrams needs to address this by either admitting that Shatner IS in the film or, if Shatner really ISN’T a part of it, offering him a role or speaking to him directly so he’ll shut up.
All of these sound bytes (one of which was on the CNN.com front page!) are creating a negative impression of the film, and could potentially hurt it.
This film will be BETTER than the original series and films.
There it has been said. Better. Here’s why…
This film may embody more of TOS than TOS did. When the show was originally on and in production, they were really just making it up as they went along. They “weren’t exactly working on all thrusters” and the results were captivating but spotty at times. Now, after 40 years and much reflection, the body of work as a whole and the essence of the characters and their interactions and relations can be factored in.
William needs to watch it before he burns any bridges.
You bite your tongue.
OK, Shatner’s not in the film, not even as a cameo.
Can we PLEASE move on, now? Pretty please?? With sugar on top???
The result? A more “concentrated” product with more TOS parts per million that the original unrefined original. This is not columbian coke. This is crack. Add to that that that this is being done by extreme fans of the show (which was never the case before. Never.) and I’m sure that we’ll all be crack-heads laughing that blow ever did it for us.
Sure, we’ll still all love TOS and have an emotional attachment to it,. but when we are alone we will admit it to ourselves. There will still be those TOS “original” die-hards who are haters of the new TOS crack but they will be like dudes who collect vinyl… analog artifacts in a digital age.
I for one am ready to be a strung out crack-whore!
and that was in response to #11
my post had to be cut up because it wouldn’t post. I just figured it out that it was because of the word c*ocaine. There is some kind of filter against certain words? A name of a drug cannot be used? I thought the states was supposed to be a free country, but I have the feeling that you guys are sliding into a paranoid fascist culture. What a sad place. We have problems in Canada, but the US is an empire that never should hav ebeen and is clearly in decline.
Does not putting Shat in the film have something to do with this because he is from Quebec? :)
There is something really weird about all this.
And of course this is what Nimoy said about his proposed appearance in Generations – that Spock didn’t do cameo
Enough, already!
I honestly couldn’t care less whether or not Shatner is in the film; but I wish they’d say one way or the other whether he was in or not. All these rumors are getting annoying.
based on everything we have been hearing about the focus being on Pike and that era of the Enterprise it makes sense for Shatner not to be in it. The dude is and always will be the Kirk-unit, the creator, but I mean damn, as someone else said it isn’t all about him.
Shatner, you will always be THE Captian Kurk.
19… Weird indeed, since the last time Shatner was offered a role in “Star Trek” (in “Enterprise”), he turned it down. Why the hard feelings now?
Something hinky here.
#19:
Because the last time he was being asked to appear on a TV series that was failing in the ratings in an attempt to attract interest to it – they needed him more than he needed them. He had leverage.
Now he’s being left out of potentially the biggest “Star Trek” project ever made – certainly bigger than anything since the very first Trek movie. And he has no leverage.
I don’t think I want to say too much more on this topic, as it is growing tired. But I will reiterate that I do not think Shatner is neccesary for he film. In fact, given his egotism, I think he could be detrimental to the development of the new cast of characters, particularly Mr. Pine. The fact that JJ has resisted the tempation to bend over backwards to appease the Shat gives me more confidence in his decision-making.
Shatner won’t make the difference at the box office (especially when one considers the multi-million dollar contract it will take to put him on film). A good story, good acting, and good advertising will make ALL the difference. From what I have heard here at Trekmovie, so far so good.
I’ll trust the story-making decisions of J.J. “Lost” Abrams over William “STAR TREK V” Shatner any day.
But I will still watch Shatner act in ANYTHING!
#26, Rastaman:
When Maurice Hurley had to be replaced after the second year of TNG as the producer in charge of writing, the studio heads were quite explicit – although not at all public – in their intent to find a replace “who will stand up to Roddenberry.” They ran through a couple of candidates before finding someone suitable, and after a staggering start the series finally got good.
There’s no way of knowing to what extent the new executives at Paramount were looking for someone who could say “no” to the usual suspects and strike out in a new direction with Trek, but I certainly agree with you that the willingness of the producers to do what’s necessary is encouraging.
I’m a bigtime fan of The Shat, but, uh…technically he wasn’t part of the “birth” of Star Trek, was he? He replaced Jeffrey Hunter. Hmmm.
The team doesn’t need to do or say anything. In a few months filming will have ended and Shatner will have given up his whining. So Abrams shouldn’t fan the flames by getting involved, its exactly what the SHAT wants.
Without risking the wrath of the anti-shatners, I would just like to say that I want him in this film and it is the prospect of Shat and Nimoy together again that has always interested me in this film.
If Shat was in but no Nimoy I would be making my pro Nimoy feelings felt.
This is a really sad way for TOS to end up.
I will, however, keep the faith,
24. 19… Weird indeed, since the last time Shatner was offered a role in “Star Trek” (in “Enterprise”), he turned it down. Why the hard feelings now?
Something hinky here.
All Shatner cares about is a big pay check…….That is all he ever has cared about. I love Trek and everything Shat has done as Kirk but I think the old SNL skit hit pretty close to home about how he really feels about the fans. I don’t think he has ever done anything FOR the fans……it’s always been about getting paid to Shatner.
I don’t understand HOW they could bring him in this movie without hurting the stroryline???
I mean Capt. Kirk (Shatner’s Kirk) died in Generation. SO how the hell could they bring him back from the grave? Should they ignore the movie. Make him live without explaning how he has comeback (laugh all you want I’ve read this in here)? Or they should invent some weird story around Kirk so that they can please some fans…
the Anwser to all the above is NO. So forget about Shatner in this. Thats it thats all!!! Deal with it.
Oh Lord!
Bill let it go.
Again you were not at the birth of Star Trek, that would be Nimoy.
Sorry my man, But Boston Legal and Priceline.com are still there for ya.
To quote what you said nearly 21 years ago, “Get a life!”
-cs™
oh dear. im crushed by that statement by the shat. thats sounds conclusive to me. i think we can forget it now. this is such a shame. it could and should have been sorted. i agree that it probably wont make that much difference at the box office but surely people agree it would have been great to have had the TWO old masters handing over the baton the the new guys. there is now a dark cloud hanging over this movie as far as im concerned. i will of course go and see it but i wanted to see shatner and nimoy in uniform once more- for the last ever time on the big screen.
i wish the production team had been a bit more clear about their own position on this. we could have avioded all this nonsense ending with shatner issuing a statement himself. a bit of a shambles. im disapointed to say the least.
Greg
UK
You suppose he’s just hoping that someone up in the offices at Paramount will call and offer him a big payday to endorse and promote the movie? I don’t mean the folks at Bad Robot, I mean the studio wheels.
I’d love to see The Shat in ”FRATERNITY ESCORTS”.
Anyhow, we now know for sure, pretty much (like I predicted in the other thread) that he has been offered a cameo, but is not interested in doing a cameo. He’s only interested in playing Kirk if it’s a substantial contribution. Well that means changing the story, which is obviously unachievable without compromise, because if it were I’m guessing they would have done so and he’d be in.
Well that’s that. We can move on now folks.
I still think they have a part for the Shat lined up in “Star Trek II” or whatever its gunna be… for all we know Star Trek could just be a build up to that???
*crosses fingers :P*
Pipe down Bill… for now anywhooo
Let’s jack this one up to 600 posts
#26
Somehow I think even if he WAS cast in the movie, Shatner’s ego would still prevent him from having anything to do with Chris Pine, who he would probably regard as his “replacement.”
Folks, you saw Shatner and Nimoy in uniform for the last time ever, in 1991.
Nimoy, more than likely, will not be in a Starfleet uniform for this movie.
The passing of the torch was done in Star Trek VI, and that’s all that should be done.
Nimoy is in the movie because it matters to the plot. If Shatner was so concerned with dramatic moments and storytelling, then he should understand that. Instead, he’s worried about himself and face time on the big screen, since he only seems to get TV work.
To clarify, I’m first and foremost a TOS fan, always have been. My favorite character is and always will be Kirk. But, if Shatner is willing to manipulate (or try to) by using the media, then I feel sorry for someone who so successfully portrayed my childhood hero.
He’ll end up taking the crapfest movie that he was offered above, just as he did for Loaded Weapon I and so on. Of course he will, because he’ll get enough lines to feed his ego and enough money to line his pockets.
Go on JJ, Roberto, Damon and the rest of the production team. Make this movie according to how you have done before, and done so successfully.
The film will end up with so much production buzz as you film that Shatner may even end up caving and doing a cameo, even if it means swallowing his precious pride as a master thespian.
(note to Roberto: you also have to try and address that Kirk will be about 150 years old in TNG time.)
I’m still disappointed that Shatner decided to Kill Kirk off in Generations. Who should we be blaming here?
Eff off already Bill. For goodness sake. My respect for the man keeps plummeting.
wasn’t it technically Leonard Nimoy who was at the birth of Star Trek? Why all the fuss Bill? I hoped he be in it now I couldn’t care less. I want to hear more about the film and less Shatner. It is getting old.
I just get this feeling that the writers and producers are being asked “….so why DIDN”T you write him in the story to begin with? I mean you have Spock..why not Kirk?” ..at which point even the ones who aren’t rabid fans would look puzzled as if it were quite obvious and answer…”um..cause he died already in that other film…we didn’t want to mess too much with Canon…and that seemed like a stretch..it seemed obvious..he’s dead…” …all this fuss after the fact..who knew…..
I don’t really believe the Shat is endering himself to anyone associated with this movie. If you look at all the comments from the other original recast characters they have been gracious and spoke with kindly about the whole project and there respective new images. Shat just sounds like he’s constantly bitching with a single “pine is good looking” comment ….
He’s worn out my patience with his comments ( geniune or not ) and frankly now I don’t give a flying goat in panties if he’s in it or not – why not let us just focus on the positives that are coming out of this pic.
Wow, I wonder what Bill’s agent thinks about all of this. I mean, it’s one thing to be disappointed and even to say so, but publicly accusing the producers or execs of making ‘foolish business decisions’ comes off as petulant and arrogant. I guess he’s written off any chance of making this work, seeing as how he’s pissed all up in their wheaties. That’s a shame, really. Even a 2 minute cameo- done properly – would have fanboys (like me) over stimulated for days. Oh well. I hope the movie doesn’t suck.
BTW, anybody else notice the News 24 (South Africa) and the Boston Herald articles are virtually identical? How’s that for phoning it in?
star trek was given birth by roddenberry, hunter, nimoy, barrett etc.
not shatner.
he came in later.
To Bill Shatner:
{{{{{{{HUGS!}}}}}} There, there, Sweet Pea. It’ll be okay. You’ll be just fine. You always are. :-)
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
(note that I didn’t bless his heart) :-)
#44. Yes technically it was Spock who was at the Birth of Trek. Actually there’s no ‘technically’ about it, it’s a fact. Jeffrey Hunter too, I wish he hadn’t died so young.
I’m hereby boycotting all “Shatner in the movie” posts. This is just too fishy that he would be so vocal about it and make such a big deal for so long. I think we’re all being had on this one. The PR spin machine is in full gear and I HATE it when I fall for these kinds of publicity stunts. Every time I hear anything it seems more certain that he will be in the movie.
STOP THIS BUS, I AM GETTING OFF (the bus that is).
The only good thing is the movie is still over a year away. Hopefully Shatner will get this all out of his system NOW and we won’t have to hear about it all next year…
You know, I don’t mean to judge the man, he is human and all. All these years I thought the reports of him being a bit of a jerk to his cast mates, wanting center stage might have been exaggerated a bit, and while i still am a huge fan, I am getting a bad taste in my mouth from all of this.
The FRATERNITY ESCORTS bit is the only part of this article that is fresh. The rest we already knew, just reworded. Nothing’s changed since the last 2 Shatner articles.
Now on to more important matters: FRATERNITY ESCORTS. Let’s have the Shat pimp some co-eds. I for one will NOT watch Fraternity Escorts unless William Shatner appears. Can we get the film makers to comment. Has Shatner seen the script? Have they even called him? If they say they are finding a way to get him in the story and it goes on for months then I will boycott Fraternity Escorts. Maybe Paul from the Shatnervision videos can ask him if he’s been approached.
I can already think of 10 reasons how Shatner can fit into the script. But I don’t want him playing the protagonists father, a Flashback pimp or the narrator.
Sign him already. We know the Fraternity Production Team read these posts.
#32. says “All Shatner cares about is a big pay check…….That is all he ever has cared about. I love Trek and everything Shat has done as Kirk but I think the old SNL skit hit pretty close to home about how he really feels about the fans. I don’t think he has ever done anything FOR the fans……it’s always been about getting paid to Shatner. ”
That’s true, to some degree I’m sure. But what has that got to do with Shatner’s portrayal of Kirk? You said you enjoyed Shat as Kirk. Does his personality hurt your feelings? All I can do is quote Don Henley: “get over it”. It’s about the character of Jim Kirk…who, incidently, for the past 40 years, just happens to have been played by William Shatner. Now we have a newcomer, Chris Pine…who may pull the wings off flies for all I know. Does it matter? NO. It’s all about what we see on screen and nothing more.
Or, at least, it should be.
I personally don’t have an opinion on whether he should or should not be in this movie but in a funny way my wife did. When I first told her about this movie I mentioned that Leonard Nimoy was going to be in it. Her first words to me were “well what about William Shatner, he’s Captain Kirk”. So what is significant about what she said. She’s not a Star Trek fan. Oh she would go to the movies with me and does like Mr. Shatner (watches Boston Legal) but she not into it. She’s represents that group that I am sure the new folks are hoping to draw in and her first reaction is to ask why the one person she knows about is not in the film. I agree that you can’t just create something for the sake of having Shatner in it . On the other hand even non-fans know the Kirk Shatner connection and they are the one’s the franchise is going to be counting on.
F*ck off bill… your now annoying the fans!!!
in earlier posts… swarms of fans were behind you… now your just a pompous ass!!
Kirk is the one we love, not you
#52. Yes I agree, while I did believe those stories of old, I had thought that Shatner had at least mellowed in his later years. The way he’s acting now is sadly making me think less of him.
I’ve never read any of his Trek books but would I be right in guessing that Kirk takes center stage in all of them and all of the other characters are marginal?
“I would be reluctant to do something that had so little value as to be a cameo.”
But if Shat did have a cameo and they did manage to undo the crapfest of “Generations” and still have a tight, fantastic story, I would think that would have a *lot* of value!
Oh, and definitely no snark intended in my above post. I really do want to give him a big, fat hug. His disappointment is understandable. I really feel for the guy.
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
shatner should have grabbed this with both hands instead of potentially plmming for another Z list movie which will dissapear into obscurity within days. never say never but there does seems an element of sour grapes now which might make it difficult for it to happen. i cant help but think a great opportunity has been missed here.
i love TOS and shatner as kirk-he was and still is my hero to this day but he really should have worked with the new capt kirk chris pine in establishing him into the role like nimoy is doing with quinto. shatner should never have agreed to do generations-but that role gave him dual top headline in the credits with patrick stewart.
bloody gutted.
greg
UK
#11. “This film will be BETTER than the original series and films.”
Not even the people making the movie believe that.
#24. “Weird indeed, since the last time Shatner was offered a role in “Star Trek” (in “Enterprise”), he turned it down. Why the hard feelings now?”
He didn’t turn it down. There was still talk of things being worked out when the series was cancelled. Manny Coto was hopeful it would happen in season 5. But it also bears mentioning that Berman’s idea was God-awful. He wanted Shatner to play the Enterprise’s chef, a role that eventually kinda went to Jonathan Frakes in the much-reviled “These Are The Voyages”.
Why is everybody looking at this like “well, if they make a good script, i guess its ok if shat’s not in it”? it would be a questionable script, in my mind, that allows kirk somehow to have cheated death yet again. i love kirk. what fan doesnt. but i love trek more, and we need to accept that kirk died a hero. dont cheapen that by pulling the old “he didnt really die” card.
If Abrams wants to show Kirk is alive after Spock subtlely tweaks the timeline, do they really need a bloated William Shatner in person to do it?
Couldn’t they just dress up a stunt double with a build and appearance of Kirk (even Chris Pine with a grey wig and some padding), have him walk up out of the shadows towards a pensive Spock (with his back to the audience so we need not say his face) perhaps in a modern Starfleet uniform, with Shatner’s voice (borrowed from a previous movie) say something simple like “Hello, Spock.” Spock turns around shocked, replies “Jim??” Camera pans up to the stars, cue Trek theme… the end.
Kirk is alive, Paramount saves millions not bowing to the Shat, everyone’s happy.
56-
good point…seems to validate Shat’s reasoning….
62-
then again..you have a good point too…
#54
I for one will NOT watch Fraternity Escorts unless William Shatner appears. Can we get the film makers to comment. Has Shatner seen the script? Have they even called him? If they say they are finding a way to get him in the story and it goes on for months then I will boycott Fraternity Escorts. Maybe Paul from the Shatnervision videos can ask him if he’s been approached.
I can already think of 10 reasons how Shatner can fit into the script. But I don’t want him playing the protagonists father, a Flashback pimp or the narrator.
Sign him already. We know the Fraternity Production Team read these posts.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! That’s awesome! Flashback-pimp! I’m dying over here…
63
no offense, but that would only be a good idea if Shatner was in the movie, died half way through filming…and they had to pull a Oliver Reed from Gladiator…
#50 “Yes technically it was Spock who was at the Birth of Trek. Actually there’s no ‘technically’ about it, it’s a fact. Jeffrey Hunter too,”
For everyone being so technical: I think we all know what he meant. 99% of the world isn’t aware there was a first pilot starring Jeff Hunter. Shatner came aboard and helped Trek REALLY take off.
#43 “Eff off already Bill. For goodness sake. My respect for the man keeps plummeting.”
Why, because the media asks him the same questions everyday, and he answers everyday, and Anthony reports it everyday, and we come here to discuss it everyday … ?
I’m starting to feel sorry for Shatner now. He’s coming off as old and bitter. Its not nice to see.
Somebody close to him needs to get hold of him quick and explain this is turning into a PR disaster for him. The fans are not turning against him (yet), but we are becoming fairly apathetic to his plight.
One day, the full story will come out. For now, I just wish he’d wish everyone good look and move on. Nichols, Takei and Koenig have all been postive thus far. I wish Shatner could be the same.
I honestly believe that Shatner was offered a role (along with Nimoy), probably over a year ago (well before the first draft was written), and for whatever reason it couldnt be worked out (money/size of role/importance of role). It was therefore developed as a Spock-centric script. If Shatner HAD wanted to be involved, he could have been.
Nimoy – ” Show me the script”
Shatner – ” Show me the money”
Now, Shatner feels left out. Its sad, but he MUST take some share of the blame.
Technically, it was. There were many upgrades to the original pilot that made Star Trek TOS the success it became, Mr Shatner included.
With all the sets (?), actors, budget, and considerable effort being placed
into this new startup, can’t we start talking about something that may bear real fruit other than a 2 hour movie that’s a year away?
HOW ABOUT A NEW STAR TREK TV SERIES to compete with George Lucas’ new Star Wars series? That would be a REAL geek fest! AND a ratings grabber! I think it would resemble the smaller scale shoot-off that occured with Babylon 5 (gasp* I said that here) and Deep Space 9 back in the 90s. I still prefer B5 cause of its EPIC and truly envisioned scope.
It also reminds me of the starup of Star Trek The Motion Picture vs. Star Wars in the 70s.
THINK OF IT PARAMONT! You made so much cash – for years after – on the icons that you created in the 60s! Heck, it launched Paramont, right?
I think there is still Gold in them mines! HOW ABOUT A NEW STAR TREK SERIES to compete with the new Star Wars series? You could have it occur just like Lucas is doing in his. Between Episode 4 and 5. There, no additional thinking needed.
Shatner says: “I’m disappointed that the story that they chose to do does not include the character I play.”
Um…
…well…
…then maybe you shouldn’t have let Paramount kill the character off THIRTEEN YEARS AGO.
Jeez Louise, get the frak over it and MOVE ON already!
SHATNER IS NOT IN THE NEW STAR TREK MOVIE CAN WE MOVE ON FROM THIS PLEASE IT’S GETTING TIRESOME.
#66
It was a quick and very unpolished idea, but the point is, if Abrams wanted to toss something like that in to show Spock changed the timeline, it wouldn’t be that hard, and they wouldn’t even need the real guy if its just a small cameo deemed beneath the original actor (if those rumors are true). Even the idea I presented, as you’ve demonstrated, would cause some people in the theatre to cheer, others to storm off in disgust, and others to furrow their brow in a vain attempt to comprehend the situation.
Its a no-win scenario to please the die-hards. But if Abrams thinks the average movie-goer want to see old Spock and old Kirk on the screen together, he might just do something like that.
I was convinced that Shatner would be in the movie, but I’m not so sure anymore. It would not only be great, but appropriate that he be in it, and it’s only the hallmark of a good writer if they manage to get him in and fit him in somehow. This is such a monumental occasion for Star Trek and it really is damned strange without Shatner as Kirk.
But if he is really not in it, Shatner is probably only hurting himself by continuing to make these statements. We already know perfectly by now what he thinks about it and to see him say it over and over with increasing disappointment will only hurt him in the long run.
This is, after all, not the only Star Trek movie they’re going to make. I’m sure they will make multiple movies and I’m definitely sure Shatner as Kirk will be in there somewhere.
Given how Shatner so brazingly and deliberately lambasts the production team et al, does anyone think that this just might be a front to obscure his actual involvement in the film? I mean, this all seems just a bit contrived…
my mistake… that last message (73) was a response to 67 not 66
#68
I’ll bet it went more like this:
Nimoy: “Show me the script. [he gets the script] “Okay; I like it. Now show me the money.” ;-)
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
I don’t think there is anything new in this story, other than the date. Now we know that as of today, he’s still not in.
By the way, almost every Trek movie has had an actor holding out for more. In ST:TMP and ST:TWOK and ST:TSFS, Nimoy had huge battles with the studio over whether he would be involved. Shatner had issues with his part in ST:TSFS. Shatner also held out for money for ST:TVH.
All of this stuff that is going on might be nothing more than standard negotions. The only difference is that nowadays with the Internet and all, whenever Bill says anything, it’s all over the news. It reminds me of Britney Spears.
Wow, the amount of Shatner hatred fueled by making innuendos from two sentences that read as very paraphrased is pretty unfortunate. Gene Roddenberry would be not be happy, because it’s obvious none of you have learned a doggone thing by watching Star Trek. The man has given more time and heart and money to charity than most of us combined, and oh no, he is just a greedy fiend. Yes, okay, Shatner is being very repetitive. But he’s also playing nice. If you ask me, I think he should just keep circulating that joke he made about J.J. while on stage with Leonard. At least maybe that would have been honest enough for people here.
Personally, I’m not very optimistic about the new movie as is. Imagine replacing all that 60s technology with big-screen high-quality effects…it might just kill the entire Star Trek legacy. Replace all that karate fighting with ships battling each other in a CG’d sky. Forget the funny hairdos and the miniskirts and tight shirts and short pants. Why not cut some of that technobabble as well?
…
and let’s also take out Shatner.
I’m sorry to be a pessimist…but what the hell is Abrams thinking? This is Star Trek, and one of the first things any well-rounded citizen thinks of at the words “Star Trek” is the word “Shatner.”
It’s like taking Johnny Depp out of Pirates of the Caribbean.
Sit down a minute and think abou this, Abrams. It can’t be that hard to negotiate on a reasonable price to pay Shatner. If that *is* the issue at stake…and I assume it is.
Ooops!
Should have been a response to 69, not #68! My bad!
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
#75
If this was an act, Shatner would be winking at the camera and kidding around in that cheesball way of his. We’ve seen him play coy in interviews before, and this is not it.
#80
Usually when people think “Star Trek” they think of Captain Kirk, — who IS in the movie.
Most non-fans I know would have to take a few minutes to remember the name of the actor.
79
” But he’s also playing nice”
Calling the production team foolish isn’t really that nice. If he was trying to get me to hire him, he would have just commented himself out of a job. However, I don’t work in Hollywood, maybe they have more patients for that crap.
I did think (for about 5 seconds) acouple weeks ago that they were running an elaborate smoke-screen to conceal his involvement,until I asked myself why they would ever want to hide Shatner’s involvement in the project. Doesn’t make sense. No, I think he’s really not in it and he’s disappointed. I seriously doubt it was about money. More likely it was face time. I vaguely recall a story about Generations where Shatner nearly backed out because his part wasn’t “integral” enough.
It probably is all negotiations. Shatner is answering in the media. JJ & team are very tight lipped. Mr. Orci comments are really not saying much. I wonder what Leonard Nimoy is thinking these days. he has not said much about the subject lately. Nor has any of the new cast.
Roberto Orci can forget about Shatner doing a cameo in Transformers 2!!
i’m as big a fan as the next, but sometimes you cant play to the fans 100%. like the simpsons episode where homer’s brother herb hires homer to design the next generation car. homer puts in every little great detail that he’s always wanted and in the end the car is a terribly ugly and expensive thing. or love interests in every show. fans always watch to see if they’ll finally get together. if they did, that would be that and there’d be nothing left. fans sometimes want whats not best for the franchise or even for themselves. not because we’re dumb, but because we’re stubborn. and sometimes we have to be shown that there are a million great ideas out there that dont have to rehash old territory.
Shatner: “I would be reluctant to do something that had so little value as to be a cameo.”
You know, there’s an old, old theaterical aphorism:
“There are no small parts. Only small actors.”
To more important things – I’m with dalek! It’s not enough for Shatner to be shoehorned into “Fraternity Escorts” in some meaningless bit part as a john or something. It’s Shat The Pimp or nothing!!!
Bill
take the cameo & the money!!!!! If you can put your name on the novels you can do this.
i do hope there is a way back for shatner in this movie despite whats being said. i also wish the production team had kept fans informed of what was happening re the shats involvement and issued something solid instead of relying on shatners statements.
i love the shat – for me he will always be captain james t kirk. he is a legend to me. …but i got ot thinking the following
1. why on earth did he decide to agree to kill kirk off in generations? he should never have done that.
2. why did he play that prank on the people of riverside who clealrly love the guy? that didnt seem fair to me.
3. by saying he has ‘a lot on’ at present seems a bit stand off -ish and doesnt seem to be very respectful to the legions who would dearly like to see him come home to the role of james kirk. he knows we love him in that role.
but these kind of statements that are appearing dont do bill any justice and we need this thing to move on and soon. i wish he had accepted gracefully and leant a hand to the new guys. everyone one else is up for it. im not sure we are getting the full story here.
greg
UK
forget shat!! Let’s get Picard in there! He’s a much better actor and if shat wanted to be in another movie he shouldnt have gotten killed!!! I can’t blame them for not wanting to work with him, if you listen to the commentaries seems like directors dont like working with him.
Bill has lost a lot of respect from me for this. You don’t hear Nichelle,George or Walter talking like this. It seems that the
stories about how full of himself he can be are true. It gives me hope
for the story that they are not just shoving him in at his behest
but by sticking to canon as they should.
I’m sort of disappointed that William Shatner isn’t likely to be in this film whether as Kirk or anybody else. Though I’m really ready to see a new Kirk. Not the same as the old Kirk.
You know, I don’t think Shatner has thought this “cameo” thing all the way through.
The truth is, the smaller his role in the movie, the MORE memorable and spectacular it would probably be. People would be buzzing about Shatner’s cameo for months afterwards, and about how damn cool it was.
He’s really passing up something good here.
Incidentally, I’m not sure how a cameo in a major blockbuster movie is below a guy whose recent appearances have included:
-Hocking cheap vacations for Priceline.com
-Encouraging people to eat All-Bran for regularity
-Endorsing a Injury Law Firm
Part of me thinks he must be joking. If a guy is too much of an actor to play a 2 minute role, how can be at the level of dancing with little All-Bran men?
Indeed, the silence from the other TOS cast members on this is deafening.
You’ve got to figure that some aggressive entertainment reporter/gossip has or shortly will be confronting Nimoy, Takei, Koenig or Nichols at some public appearence and asking them “what’s going on with Shatner? How do you feel about this?”
Not to mention what they’re going to be asking Pine or Abrams or Quinto the next time they come up from the trenches.
Take it like a man, Bill. All this whining is hurting your image.
If Shatner would beam a smallER part into space, then he really doesn’t care if he’s in the movie or not. JJ made The Shat cry, and now he’s making the fans cry. Milking this for all it’s worth is probably a better business decision for Shatnervision than actually being part of the movie. We want you in it, Shat. Why can’t you and Nimoy just sail off into the sunset at the end and be done with it. So much for Kirk being alive when Spock returns to his century. It would have been… human.
To answer Shatner Fan. Why does my respect for the man continue to dwindle?
Because for years he was viewed as a ham heavy joke of the acting community. I defended the man from anyone who dared to speak ill of him. I knew he had been arrogant and self absorbed in the past, but I believed he had changed in his later years. I thought he had deepened. With the release of his collaborative album with Ben Folds “Has Been”, I heard a wonderfully realized concept album, and although I know much of the credit goes to Ben Folds for ‘getting it’ (Check out Bens own concept album “Fear of Pop”), I credited THE SHAT. Then came Boston Legal, the awards! I felt…FINALLY…Shatner has earned his due. Sadly, now I see that it has all gone to his head again, and here he is…pulling the ‘powerful actor’ routine. I’m a financial asset…etc, etc. It isn’t just this incident, he has begun being silly more than one in the last year or so, but I guess that’s the Shatner cycle. It saddens me that he still hasn’t learned. That’s just how I feel about it, and I can’t respect someone who behaves as he does. Money and popularity do not earn you the right to be a dip.
yeah its getting a bit stale now….. and taking the shine of the new film…
lets face it… he’s dead Jim!
Nimoy said in numerous interviews over the years that Spock playing against Pike hadn’t had the dynamics that Kirk/Spock had. Nimoy attributed their chemistry that made each other tic.
Kirk in Generations was flat.
Spock in Unification was flat.
Sulu/Rand on Flashback was flat.
Scotty in Relics was flat.
McCoy in Encounter at Farpoint was flat.
Though I enjoyed them…they all needed the original group to be thoughly enjoyable.
Whats Laurel without Hardy?
Whats Moe, Larry without Curley?
Whats Hope without Crosby?
I rest my case.
Yeah, this is getting old. Bill, I love ya, man. I’m a big fan and I still think you’re one of the coolest. But you agreed to appear in a film that killed off your character. That was your choice. I’m sorry, Bill, but I have no time for a movie that would have to spend half the story resurecting you. I want something new. Take the cameo or let it go.
What’s Peanut Butter without Jelly?
What’s Death without Taxes?
What’s Assault without Battery?
I rest my case.
#100
The reason those were all “flat” was the writing, plain and simple.
(Although I would argue Relics was very well written and it might have been the strongest Scotty episode ever)
# 100. “Kirk in Generations was flat.”
I disagree actually. Those scenes with him and Scotty were magic. I thought it was a shame Shatner tended to ignore the others so much in previous films as he had chemistry with most of them.
nimoy and shatner are best buddies right? so surely nimoy is saying to abrahams you got to get bill into this movie. from what i heard nimoy had stated from the outset that shatner had to be in it.
as the previous guy said, im ready for a new kirk (never thought id here myself say that!) but id dearly love to see the new endorsed by the old. a kind of acceptance and graceful hand over. its got to be done that way i recon. im starting to wish that none the old cast were not going to be involved the way its going. maybe we should have had a clean slate with none of the originals appearing. its terrible to say that i know especiually as im a massive fan of the original series…but thats how im feeling. i dont mind saying im feeling badly let down at the moment. please mr abrahams get this sorted and at warp speed!
I’ve been one of the biggest supporters for Shatner’s return, but it looks like he’s closed the door on it, and is either trying to jack a salary increase on ‘BL’ or get enough of a fan movement to influence the movie writer/-s to write him in. Either way, it lacks class. You’ve lost my support, Shatner. You’re just looking like a jerk. Do the right thing and shut the Hell up.
I think it’s safe to say – we’re all tired of this argument. Regardless of our personal feeling towards Kirk (I’m pro Kirk, but not for the new movie), it’s time to put this monkey to bed.
Film two movies back to back. Finish special effects for the second film well after the first. Sequel with larger role for Shatner. Write the script now before writer’s strike.
This is either a complete ruse, or William Shatner wants to be in the movie so bad he’s willing to make accusatory and derogatory comments about the film-makers. Interesting negotiating tactic you’ve got there, Bill. Before crossing the bridge, douse thoroughly with gasoline and then ignite with a match.
i will see star trek no matter what when it comes out, however with the story focusing around what it is, shatner should be in it, especially if nimoy’s in it. william shatner IS captain kirk, as good as pine may be, shatner is kirk, and kirk is in the movie, shatner should be, it’s a kobayashi maru situation, shat wont do a cameo and jj wont give him a big role, terrible
#54 dalek
(snort…giggle…)
#80 Vulcan babe… what was JJ thinking?
Whoa… you have more information than we do? You must, because you say JJ is wrong. Many of us are assuming there’s two sides to the story?
My God…it must be a conspiracy to kill Star Trek at the very highest levels.
I asked my wife, a well-rounded citizen who is not a Trek fan, what word(s) come to mind after she hears “Star Trek”. Hers were not Shatner.
“Enterprise”
“Phaser”
Captain Kirk
Captain Picard
Mister Spock
Sorry….
Ugh…..
So, Mr. Shatner, what are your suggestions on how to bring “your” character back?
Anyone else annoyed with hearing him bitch about this stuff???
I know I am.
EEEGGGGOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
100. What’s Hope without Crosby?
A legend of the stage, film, radio, and television, beloved by vets for his yearly Christmas tours for the USO, and if the stories are to be believed, worth 1 billion dollars when he died. He did just fine even when he wasn’t working with Bing. I’m just saying.
Ok, he’s not coming and I see no massive pro-Shatner calvary riding over the sunset to smite the blasphemy of the comments above or to spin what he said.
I could have supported him, had he not been a part in the murder of James T Kirk. (yes, I know he felt bad about it later and supposedly felt that it was the “right” thing to do at the time and had he known what was coming he wouldn’t have done it. Sorry, not buying that.)
I think there’s still an outside chance of him appearing, but I won’t bet a dime on it.
Ok, next subject…. Who’s cast as “Enterprise” and what kinda curves does she have? ;-)
Funny thing is, all of the slobbering Shatner-bashers may end up having their venom shoved back down their collective throats. “Lost” is a TV interest–a fad or whatever, however this does not guarantee the non-Trek fans of J.J. will even care to see the film–which is important, as i’ve noticed many pro-J.J. types seemingly assume the popularity/audience of this TV series and/or J.J. will transfer to the Trek film as though that is a guarantee, when the very nature of the current business has no sure-fire guarantees anymore.
Additionally, Trek still suffers from a widespread geek-stigma (even amongst fans of other sci-fi properties) that will not go away, no matter how you dress it and sell it (ex. the shameles T & A factors injected into Voyager and Enterprise), so a new cast who (like it or not pro-JJ people) will face endless comparison and likely a torrential flood of slamming from anyone (fan, critic, et al) familiar enough with TOS to make accurate value judgements.
Another issue is the “is this trip necessary” factor; it not like anyone is really begging Trek to reurn–certainly not the part of the public with a perception of Trek thanks to the (largely) lackluster Bermanverse, so som may wonder “eh…yeah a new Trek film…but why should I see this one?”
or “I did not like the last Trek film I saw, so i’ll pass…” or “this is a rental at best.”
This along with other factors plague Trek, and it does not help that the series is attempting a prequel when it sort of suggests (to the general population with no clue about old plans to do Starfleet Academy or “young” films in the past) that Trek has burned itself up so much, that it (quickly) has to mine the classics in order to survive (actually more true than anyone may ever care to admit). This is not lkke the Star Wars Prequel case, as everyone already realized George Lucas wanted to FINISH the planned six episodes, which predated the original trilogy.
With the Bermanverse not entirely cold yet, Trek may inspire the “they have to start over because its so bad” prejudices already being tossed around about the forthcoming “Hulk” reboot–which IS a reboot only a few short years after Ang Lee’s version, because the latter was THAT bad. Assumption of an idea being bad (right or wrong) cannot be a good omen.
With no disrespect to the other surviving cast of TOS, Wiliam Shatner is one of two faces which *are* Star Trek around the world. Bashers can hate to admit it until doomsday, but to a couple of generations–even non-Trekkers, if you say “Star Trek”, Shatner’s name or face comes to mind. It is no different than if one says “Beatles” Paul’s name or face is going to enter the mind of a large number of people–even those not particularly fond of Beatles’ music. That said, this experiment needs all of the pop-cultural weight possible. J.J.’s “Lost” fandom/repuatation is not enough–alone, nor is Nimoy. As many have noted time and again, Nimoy and Shatner are like McCartney & Lennon–tied to the hip in memory, and history forevermore…as are Kirk and Spock. Characters who are at their best when they had the other to play off of.
The new film has more than an uphill battle, particularly when allegedly talented writers have the ability to take a tale in any direction, add things, remove things, etc., but end up leaving out one of the most popular, representative personalities (and his character) of the entire franchise.
Quite….illogical.
I think since this new movie focuses on Spock having Shatner in it would be distracting. Also Shatner is annoying
Shat wasn’t part of the original birth of Star Trek…that was Jeffrey Hunter and Nimoy. I know the Cage wasn’t picked up after it was shown to NBC, and it was Shatner’s pilot they liked, but he needs to accept it. As do we. Shatner won’t be in this picture, because it’s not about Kirk. Rumors have said Kirk doesn’t appear until later in the film. That means a Pike/Spock Enterprise…..not Kirk/Spock. If Shatner were in it, it is becoming more and more clear that it’d be a random cameo unconnected to the screenplay.
#116. “With no disrespect to the other surviving cast of TOS, Wiliam Shatner is one of two faces which *are* Star Trek around the world. ”
Er, I think you’ll find that any of the original TOS cast are seen as ‘Star Trek’ around the world. Spock, Scotty, Bones, Uhura, Sulu, Chekov. *All* of them are cultural icons.
116. COMPASSIONATE GOD – October 29, 2007
“Funny thing is, all of the slobbering Shatner-bashers may end up having their venom shoved back down their collective throats.”
I’ll admit that the film could fail. But that is possible WITH Shatner in it as well.
If he’s eventually in it, Great.
But I’m still tired of his complaining about the situation right now.
He needs to either go in, read the script and help come up with an idea, or get over it.
#116:”Funny thing is, all of the slobbering Shatner-bashers may end up having their venom shoved back down their collective throats.”
Nothing in the several paragraphs following this actually builds the case that a) there are lots of “slobbering Shatner-bashers” out there or that b) there’s any likelihood of Shatner’s critics having “their venom shoved back down their collective throats.”
It’s just a proud-sounding assertion which makes no actual sense.
I’m really tired of Shatner whining about this. The fact of the matter is, the guy can’t even act that well. You know that if the movie does poorly he’s gonna say it’s because he wasn’t in it. Just shut up, Bill, and go do a sequel to Big Bad Mama, or Kingdom of the Spiders.
I realize that a lot of media outlets are picking up the story, therefore we are probably hearing about this more time than Shatner actually said it. Still, I agree with other. It’s time to let it go.
I really wish Shatner wouldnt even comment on the new movie anymore. People are getting annoyed by his comments and I’m sure it doesnt help his chances of being included in the movie.
I want Shatner in and I think he has every right to be angry (EVERY SINGLE person that posts here whining about Shatner not “letting go” would feel EXACTLY the same).
But hey, if JJ and company dont want him in the movie, its their call (or mistake as I see it).
And BTW, if JJ had just been straight with everyone from the start instead of getting people’s (and Shatner’s) hopes up, none of this would be happening right now.
Sure, blame everybody but Shatner.
RE: 116
Wow, someone sounds angry. Why is the prediction of “Doom” always the fall back position when someone doesn’t get their way? I’ve never understood that.
Also, my dear Mr. Shatner had this to say, “I would be reluctant to do something that had so little value as to be a cameo.”
If I may ask, what purpose did you serve in the overall story of Star Trek: Generations other than to die? Answer: None. They could have made that film without Mr. Shatner, just the same as this film. Mr. Shatner sadly accepted Generations for one or all of the following reasons:
1. All he had going on was Rescue 911.
2. They met his price.
3. He wanted a glorious death scene like Mr. Spock.
What is it they say about hindsight?
#117 “I think since this new movie focuses on Spock having Shatner in it would be distracting. Also Shatner is annoying”
Yeah, it sure was distracting having them as an onscreen team during the 25 years they were turning Star Trek into a legendary success story, wasn’t it? Next.
#118 “Shat wasn’t part of the original birth of Star Trek…that was Jeffrey Hunter and Nimoy. I know the Cage wasn’t picked up after it was shown to NBC, and it was Shatner’s pilot they liked,”
Right. And the first time the national audience saw Star Trek, they did see Shatner. The Cage wasn’t shown on tv until the 80’s! People need to stop parsing hairs; for God’s sake, to the vast majority of Americans, Shatner IS synonymous with the birth of Star Trek. We all know it.
#119 “Er, I think you’ll find that any of the original TOS cast are seen as ‘Star Trek’ around the world. Spock, Scotty, Bones, Uhura, Sulu, Chekov. *All* of them are cultural icons.”
They’re icons of sci-fi, no doubt. But if you think Uhura or Chekov are as well known as Shatner’s Kirk, I’ve got some property on Ceti Alpha V I’d like to sell you!
122- They may not be slobbering but they’re there.
Always there to get in a dig at Shatner’s expense. Always there to attack him for answering interviews when the media contacts HIM. Always there to point out how dead he is, as if the writers aren’t competant enough to write their way out of that dilema. Always there, in every Shatner based thread, to make sure we all know that this movie will be worse off and falter with his large body and ego in it…despite the inclusion of TOS star Leonard Nimoy AS TOS Spock!!
Always there to remind us, no matter how illogical, how Shatner’s ego is so inflated that we must now hate the character of Kirk because Shatner is in it for the $$!
Sigh…
It’s crazy. How can anyone, who is a fan of Star Trek, starring William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy, be so violently opposed to William Shatner being in this movie? It’s not a “must”, but IF you like TOS and if you like Kirk, then how can you possibly be against the idea, especially without having read the script or know the story? It boggles the mind.
Unless of course, those chiming in on a regular basis, rather than skipping these Shatner stories entirely, are predominantly Berman era fans adn they’re venting because their days are over. If they would at least admit their dislike for Kirk and TOS, at least the constant harsh opposition to the idea would make SOME kind of sense and I could at least wrap my mind around where they’re coming from.
But they won’t do that. It’s always..”I’ve always loved Shatner in TOS, BUT….. I’m a lifelong TOS fan, Shatner was the man in his day, BUT….
I like Shatner, BUT…
All these posters “like” him, like him as Kirk, like TOS, but are defiant against any possible scenario that puts Shatner in the film.
I just don’t get it.
i have warned over and over…no more name calling, lableing, etc, etc
and for the record…the vast majority of visitors and fans want the shat, but think the movie is paramount. Not demanding he be given his bigger than cameo resurrection does not make you a ‘hater’ or a ‘phobe’ etc
any future name calling, flaming, trolling, etc will result in bans…no exceptions
JTK….RIP
Time to move on!
423 dtST
Well, This story made my local newscast as the last story of the broadcast and they teased it after the weather. It’s a headline that could easily be ignored, but news agencies and news directors are picking it up all over. That alone indicates to me, that Shatner+ Star Trek = curiosity and interest, even among non-Trekkies.
Bottom line: in many markets, this item got picked up where the basic announcement of Trek 2008 being produced was ignored. There IS a tremendous interest in Shatner that transcends these fan boards, otherwise this story would not be getting the air and print media that it has been enjoying over the past few days.
Deny it all you want, but that won’t make reality go away.
#123 “I’m really tired of Shatner whining about this. The fact of the matter is, the guy can’t even act that well. You know that if the movie does poorly he’s gonna say it’s because he wasn’t in it.”
I doubt it. I think A LOT of people here are going to realize how much hot air and cyber ink they’ve wasted once Shatner begins making the convention rounds with Pine. It’s only a matter of time. In fact, it has already been announced that “special guests” will be appearing when Shatner is honored in L.A. in December. Hmmm. And if being one of the most recognizable actors on tv, more in demand than ever after a 50 year career, earning millions, winning Emmys, and being one of the key factors behind Star Trek’s success are the signs of a bad actor … I bet all of Hollywood wishes they were as bad!
#129 “those chiming in on a regular basis, rather than skipping these Shatner stories entirely, are predominantly Berman era fans adn they’re venting because their days are over. If they would at least admit their dislike for Kirk and TOS, at least the constant harsh opposition to the idea would make SOME kind of sense”
Yep.
Some are suggesting that Shatner is full of himself, which would go a long way in explaining the man’s size and girth!! He’s HUGE!!
My God, he looks like he could be mistaken for a float in the Macy Day Parade or, even worse, on a bad day, Ted Kennedy!!!
Hey, the two words that Teddy Kennedy hates to hear? LAST CALL!!
#130 “the vast majority of visitors and fans want the shat, but think the movie is paramount”
Well, sure we think it’s Paramount…….what, you figured we were thinking maybe Universal or 20th Century Fox?
Come on, Anthony, smile……….I know it’s in there………
jonboc, sure its not Bermans era Trek but its also not Roddenberry Trek either, this is JJ Abrams movie. Sure it will feature TOS but filtered through him and his writers who, btw, like ALL the Trek shows.
Being someone whose watch Trek since the mid 70’s,and seen all the films (the first time)the good ones,and the bad ones too. I find this just typical of Bill’s ego. He’ll still be complaining next year when the film comes out. And in March or April of 09 when it hits DVD.
And God forbid if the new film flops,cause if it were to.
Then Bill would be crying”See,see. With out me it just doesn’t work!”
He’s always had an open contempt towards Star Trek,in the nearly 30 years since he’s done interviews.
He’s always trying to distance himself from Kirk. Now its literally being taken away from him.and his ego just wont stand for it.
But I still love the guy. Oh Bill.
#129 “those chiming in on a regular basis, rather than skipping these Shatner stories entirely, are predominantly Berman era fans adn they’re venting because their days are over. If they would at least admit their dislike for Kirk and TOS, at least the constant harsh opposition to the idea would make SOME kind of sense”
I’m a fan of Gene Roddenberry’s Star Trek, and whether you like it or not, that includes The Next Generation. As I have said before, I would love for Mr. Shatner to have a part in this film, but not at the expense of the bigger story to be told. There are no magical solutions to bring back Kirk, and I believe it is wholly unfair to even believe it is the duty of this film to make it happen.
I take issue with anyone who opposes the idea of this film simply because it doesn’t aim to “fix” a mistake made by Mr. Shatner in 1994, and that’s what I see on every board. It’s not fair to the creative team nor the new crew of the Enterprise who have to deal with shadows for the rest of their careers anyways.
Someone has to speak for them as many feel they have to speak for Mr. Shatner.
RE: #129 – It’s not a “must”, but IF you like TOS and if you like Kirk, then how can you possibly be against the idea, especially without having read the script or know the story? It boggles the mind.
I think you answered the question already…it’s not a must. The story of Mr. Shatner’s Kirk has been told and concluded, regardless of the outcome, it is done and he signing off on it. This is Mr. Pine’s Kirk tale, and time for us to get to know him as we did the original, that is only fair. The filmmakers have said if they can get Mr. Shatner in then they will, if not…they tried. That should be enough for all of us, but, some fans absolutely insist that the ONLY way this film will be any good or make any kind of money is by including Mr. Shatner.
That’s rather extreme and unrealistic, in my view.
138 – That would be “He signed off on it.” Sorry, it’s late.
OMG! Really man- stop whining. Your not in the movie- be happy for Leonard and move on.
The End.
Pike all the way. Yay.
Bill- relax. Give it up.
BTW, happy birthday to me. (10/29/ never mind the year)
Apparently, some did not “get it” the 1st time, soooo…..
Re: Shatner bashers: The observation was pointed at this forum, where too many posts either attempt to reduce the value of the actor or the character for no valid reason.
Re: venom shoved back down the throats of..
In short: anyone acting like a kid at Christmas over the idea of J.J. at the wheel (while taking what seems to be great joy at bashing Shatner and by association, his fans thinking his patrcipation is necessary–as witnessed in this forum ad infinitum), are likely building false hope–setting themselves up for a fall based on other work, and another audience (response) who may not like any part of Star Trek. In this way, should their false hope be dashed, that is the venom shoved down the throat, after all, they thought it was all such a great plan (especially without that “good-for-nothing egomaniac” Shatner).
Trek is an animal with serious problems in the wake of the failed Bermanverse, and J.J. is untested…but that does not stop certain fans from convincing themselves that its all going to be the rebirth to end all rebirths…yeah, but based on what?
That is the question–for all of the fairly blind support for a gang of Trek-untested people, such zeal makes little sense.
Further, the bashers who continue to believe Shatner is not required..how can they say this? Are they in on the scripting? Do they know without doubt that his character has no place…or does this just boil down to bashers simply living up to the title?
Would you prefer a TNG-based prequel?
Maybe the Trek producers saw Miss Congeniality 2 and decided that wasn’t the audience they were going for…
P.S. Trust CTV to mention the word ‘Canadian’ in their headline!! (see top)
YIPPEEE!!
More free publicity about Star Trek (2008).
#62 to Harlan. Kirk would be like Kenny on South Park, he could die and still come back for the next episode — “Kirk’s dead!!! You Bastards!!!!!!!—-
“#129 “those chiming in on a regular basis, rather than skipping these Shatner stories entirely, are predominantly Berman era fans adn they’re venting because their days are over. If they would at least admit their dislike for Kirk and TOS, at least the constant harsh opposition to the idea would make SOME kind of sense”
Yep.”
Nope. Bull, in fact.
I’ve been around this quadrant longer than most, and am second to none here in my love for TOS; certainly, not to self-righteous blowhards who would presume to tell me that I must “dislike Kirk” or prefer what Berman wrought simply because I question the notion that this film should include Shatner no matter what, at whatever the cost . Sheesh.
Kirk Jerked is a good one.
God knows its the truth.
Is the story so tight it can not include Shat?
Transformers sucks & so will this reboot if you shit
on the original source material.
Shatner is part of the TOS.
Just like Takei, Nichols & Koenig.
Look dudes from above not having these folks in the film,
just looks bad & is down right disrespectful.
Remember Frank Welker?
Sure you don’t Bob.
One more thing, tell JJ he might as well put Will Tippon in the movie.
And call it Shit Trek!
#141
Happy birthday!!
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
#139
THANK YOU!
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
JJ why don’t you just say Shatner is not in?
Its BS to have this drag out like you doing.
Show everyone that you don’t mind crapping
on the father of SCI FI television & movies.
To a lot of people Shatner needs to be Kirk again.
Its so simple.
This would also help your reboot to be validated.
If Shats not in, no repeat movie visits for me.
Shit I may even go to the theater.
Wait for my Bro to get a copy.
Or just stay pissed & never watch it.
You might end up pissing off more people then RICK BERMAN did!
#142 – That is the question–for all of the fairly blind support for a gang of Trek-untested people, such zeal makes little sense.
Some people just believe in giving chances without prejudice and without “conditions” (Such as “Mr. Shatner or Nothing at all!”) Bennett and Myer are a great example of untested talent breathing new life, why should Abrams and co get any less of a chance? Perhaps maybe….because of the Shatner controversy?
RE: #142 – Would you prefer a TNG-based prequel?
Why does everything lead back to TNG? Just because some people may not want Mr. Shatner does not mean they are Pro-TNG. For the record, yes, in another 25 years I wouldn’t mind a TNG based prequel.
BTW, I do agree, the personal physical attacks on Mr. Shatner are entirely unnecessary.
142. COMPASSIONATE GOD – October 29, 2007
Yea, we got it. You aren’t happy.
There’s no one here that hates Shatner, but some feel that he shouldn’t have helped kill Kirk. Others feel that he’s being insulting or egotisical. It’s their opinion, just like you have yours.
You don’t like TNG and beyond…got it.
You dislike Abrams… or at least question his ability to make this a good film…. got it.
What was missed?
I still hope they get the Shat.
Imagine how you all’d feel if packs of reporters every day were screaming at you “How’s it feel to not be in the stat trek movie?” “Hey Bill, how come they want Leonard and not you?” – that would get on my nerves too. If he said “No comment” we’d all be up in arms! He doesn’t care about Star Trek!
Give the guy a break and wait to see what happens. Bill, at this point it’s better to just say “I’d love to do it, but it’s not up to me.”
How’s this for an ending/cameo. Spock tweaks the time line, returnsd home, his doorbell rings… he walks to it… it opens, Shatner is there as Kirk… Spock says “Jim” and Kirk is in a flannel shirt and jeans with a packon is back says “Spock… I thought we were going camping?”
Better yet, before Spock leaves the past, he hands kirk a note ala “back to the future” -young Kirk opens it and it says “stay off the bridge on veridian 3″ or “on the Day of the Enterprise B’s dedication, don’t leave the bridge under any circumstances, send Harriman to engineering.
Voila! new timeline!
This is probably the last time that william shatner will be offered anything regarding trek and he again blew it, letting his ego and pride get in the way.. hey bill! how about one for the team???..”no thanks ” says shatner.. I’m sure they are nice folks but no thanks” Please dont ask “uncle jack” to star in trek or ask his opinion because you know what he is going to say. He dug his own grave in “generations ” (Pun Intended) and he can just stay there.
Here’s why I, for one, and others are excited about this new movie, Shatner or no Shatner:
“… And I say that they have hired a very talented director and very talented writers, and you have to turn them loose and let them make their movie. Okay? I have faith in these people … I think they’re going to invigorate the franchise. I really do, I believe that.”
Now, who said that? Leonard Nimoy, Comic Con, 8/12/07.
That’s good enuf for me.
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
Prediction: when this thread is nearing 600 posts shatner will give a similar interview as he gave moviehole and the AP
153. Silhouette – October 29, 2007
“Yea, we got it. You aren’t happy.”
I never said anything of the sort, so that is a comment making little sense.
“There’s no one here that hates Shatner”
There are posts in several threads which say the opposite.
“but some feel that he shouldn’t have helped kill Kirk. Others feel that he’s being insulting or egotisical. It’s their opinion, just like you have yours.”
However, the anti-Shatner crowd seems to use much fire and venom when talking about the man, as though he would be the worst thing ever to participate in this Trek film, and/or attempt to belittle the actor or in some cases, his character–its all so irrational.
“You don’t like TNG and beyond…got it.”
I found some of TNG tolerable (when the New Agey/technobabble/psychobabble qualities did not ruin it), sometimes entertaining–DS9 to a lesser degree.
Voyager, Enterprise and 3 of the 4 TNG movies were absolute garbage.
“You dislike Abrams…”
Never even hinted at anythng of the sort, so this is way off-base.
“or at least question his ability to make this a good film…. got it.”
No, you do not get it. I question his ability in relation to the nonsensical hype/praise he’s receiving by certain Trek fans. At times, they will refer to liking/loving “Lost” and basing their faith on either personal or other audience response to the show, when that has nothing to do with the perception of Star Trek, or some guarantee of a transfer of popularity to the new film.
That is what was missed.
No Kirk no movie!
148
I hope you’re right and Star Trek ’sucks’ as bad as Transformers. Thanks!
Transformers rocked and so will the new movie
145
I know some still think this is some kind of publicity stunt. But do you really think JJA and Paramount want ‘Kirk Jerked’ headlines?
In fact right now they really dont want anything in the mainstream media beyond the fact that they are making a movie and it has young folks playing the TOS crew.
If the Shat ends up in the film…it wont mean that this was all BS. It will mean that they just took a long time to make up their minds.
However I do think that maybe Mr. Shatner should tone down the ‘unwise’ and ‘foolish’ comments….that cant be making any friends over at Paramount right now
Shatner or no Shatner I’ll be there Christmas day
#160
Right ON! Biggest ticket sales for a July 4th opening in movie history ($65.7 MILLION), 4.5 million DVDs sold this week alone.
Yeah, I too hope Trek XI sucks as bad as “Transformers.”
Hee hee!
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
#133
Let’s get something straight. While I AM a Berman-era fan depending on which show we’re talking about, I am also a TOS fan. I watched the show when it was originally aired. I like Shatner as Kirk in those shows. But his kind of ham-fisted acting is dated and tired. You sad people who can’t accept a new movie without Shatner waddling around looking like an overfed tick would ruin the restart of the franchise. Shatner isn’t a star these days, he’s a parody of himself. Just because he’s making good money at it doesn’t mean he’s a good actor. What stupid logic!
#165. Overfed tick?
Wow, that actually had me laughing for a while.
But honestly, I enjoy his style of acting because it’s quite similar to theatrical acting. At that time, CG effects weren’t prominent, and all the show had to go on was Shat’s and Nimoy’s indredible acting abilities and curious interrelationships.
But Shatner ruin the franchise? That’s not true in the slightest…just because he doesn’t have a sleek, muscular shirtless chest and a bunch of hot babes chasing after him doesn’t mean he’s any less of the Captain Kirk he used to be.
I guess in a sense, you’re right. His acting style is outdated and he isn’t quite as popular as he used to be…but isn’t the entire point of reusing Kirk and Spock and TOS….to excite people who are already fans of Star Trek and already know all about Shatner?
Honestly…how many are secretly holding out hope that Shatner will appear as a suprise in Star Trek XI…and will be horribly dissapointed if he fails to do so?
Ah, maybe it is just good old fashioned pride with His Shatnerness – the only thing I can glean is that there were initial conversations which didn’t work out very well and now he is publically stating that he wants in, but with a meaty part.
Unless it’s all a big smoke screen (I’m steadily moving towards thinking not) then he hasn’t been written a big part, but is now reduced to a cameo at best, which maybe gets him a seat at the premier and a complementary T shirt.
So unless there is a ’script B’ then there’s actually very little point in all this public posturing. Maybe there is no such thing as bad publicity but I’m not enjoying these headlines now. The film needs publicity in 422 days, not right this minute, so it must be Shatner that needs the publicity.
Dennis is right, the silence, not just from the cast but the production team as a whole, is quite telling.
There are two possibilities, they are unwilling to respond, they are unable to respond. If it’s A then it’s all done and they just want him to go away. If it’s B then they are still in negotiation or under some form of NDA about contractual talks. It FEELS like A but who knows?
Of course it just *could* just be the chamber’s coil…
#165 – Queefer
The man is 76 years old. I don’t understand how you can talk about him “waddling around and looking like an overfed tick.” How do you feel justified in saying something this cruel? Do you commonly say these sorts of things to people? How do they react? I’m truly sorry that you have such harsh feelings about others. I wish I could help you.
Kirok fan help yourself. Those descriptions of Shatner are completely acurate and don’t try to make us feel guilty. So Shatners not to old to kick butt on the big screen again, but is too old for us to make fun of. Nice try.
Still Have the theory that if Leonard had said No! which was really possible then they would have adjusted the story and gone with Bill. Seems logical.
Really happy Leonard is in the film.
I just wish it could have been both of them, as this is the last chance. I will be sad watching the Movie with No William Shatner.
The News was in the papers in the UK yesterday.
#160,
So this means all the original characters will have few lines in the film?
You should just make the enterprise a big flying GM product.
Or just make Spock a Camaro.
Better yet just have all the crew fall out of the sky with no explanation what so ever. Less is more in Hollywood I guess.
Shatner doesn’t seem to get that business decisions cannot dictate story decisions.
Which is funny, because if his boss had let the biz dictate how Star Trek worked, Shatner never would have passed the status of the dime-a-dozen TV actor.
It is unfortunate he is whining so much.
ON THE OTHER HAND, if I were him, with the deep love for Star Trek I’m sure he feels (I know I do), and I was *this close* to getting to play Captain freaking Kirk in a new movie… I’d feel pretty let down to lose out, too. So I don’t blame him.
But I do wish he’d stop.
I thought Kirk died in “Generations” ;-)
So it makes sense to me that he isn’t in the movie….
169 – odo19
???
I don’t see how someone could say what you guys are saying and not feel guilty.
#5 GraniteTrek
Big BUMP!
#62 Harlan
Bump!
All I have to add is that I do not personally take it as a given that the end of Generations is necessarily undoable. However, I believe that it would be a challenge, and to attempt it while at the same time launching a new cast would more than likely sink the movie. The only way would be to make the film an epic, clocking in at 2.5 to 3 hours (like Staw Wars Episode III), but that is surely not a risk Paramount is willing to foot the bill for (Ha! Foot the BILL!) at this tender stage in the franchise’s life.
#86 Harlan
So sad, and so true. Look at what finally getting Riker and Troi together in Nemesis did. It just added to the extreme cheesiness (of course, the main reasons why that movie sucked were other things, like the Picard clone and his ridiculous rise from Reman slavehood… stupid, stupid, stupid!).
Queefer Bukkake: Please change your name. It makes me cringe every time!
Finally, jonbloc, Staner_Fan_2000, and COMPASSIONATE GOD:
Your assertions that the so-called “anti-Shatner” camp are all merely pro-Berman is preposterous. First of all, those who are now opposed to having Shatner in the movie are not a unified camp — there are many different reasons cited, from what I have read. Second, there is no conspiracy — I have not read any specifically pro-B&B posts. The closest you get to that is people who, like me, think that *some* B&B stuff is good; however, most of those think, like me, that they had their day and even wore out their welcome, and now it’s time for some new minds at the helm of the franchise.
The reality is as simple as this:
(1 – premise) There can be no satisfactory appearance of Old Kirk without addressing hid death in Generations.
(2 – premise) Resolving Kirk’s death cannot be accomplished in a satisfactory way without integrating it as a substantial and coherent element in the script; anything else would be cheap and perfunctory, and in this I agree with Shatner on refusing a cameo.
(3 – premise) The script as it has been written and green-lighted for production on the eve of shooting does not include a resolution to Kirk’s death.
(4 – conclusion) Therefore, putting Old Kirk in now would be a mistake, given the state of the Franchise and the financial risk TPTB are willing to assume for this project, as I describe above in response to #62 Harlan.
169 – odo19
I also don’t think I said anything about how Shatner should “kick butt on the big screen again.” When you read over what I did say, I think you’ll notice that I didn’t say anything about him kicking butt. Again, he is 76 years old.
In fact, one thing that has always bugged me about some of the movies is that Kirk should be allowed to show his age, and does not need to be running around and fighting as much as he does.
By the way, you guys who are mocking him about being fat and over-the-hill are actually helping him make money. Listen to “Has Been” on his recent album and you’ll understand. It was inspired by these sorts of criticisms.
165 – Queefer
Another thing about Shatner…
You state that his ham-fisted acting is dated. In a way, you are correct. His acting in The Original Series is dated.
But, you seem to use this as a criticism of him. It should be quite the opposite. In other words, the fact that it is dated explains why it is ham-fisted. It was filmed in the sixties. Sit down and watch some TV shows that were filmed in the sixties and early seventies. You’ll see that overacting was widespread. As the years have gone by, the style of acting we see most often has changed. In more recent times, it is even cool to underact. A character will be within an inch of being blown to smithereens, and will simply smile and make some sort of snappy comment.
Look at Shatner’s acting in the Star Trek: The Motion Picture, or The Wrath of Khan. I think you’ll see that he wasn’t as over-the-top.
He’s also won a couple of Emmy awards. I don’t suppose that means anything though, does it?
What I laugh at most when I watch TOS is the way Kirk will grab a guy, throw him to the ground, and the guy will immediately be unconscious! That would not go over well nowadays.
I have to give Shatner credit. He has been mocked and made fun of so much over the decades. Did he respond with anger? No, he took it in good humor, and even joined in and made fun of himself (Airplane II, Free Enterprise, Boston Legal). And now he gets criticized for being a parody of himself. I would say “you just can’t win,” except that he clearly is winning.
Sebi Yes Kirk died in Generations, but Spock would have found a way!
That’s why I can’t accept Generations ending, its one of the reasons Nimoy did not want anything to do with it!
This needs fixing. As fans they should know that.
Dear Mr. Orci,
I’m just curious. Regardless of Start Trek 11, just let’s ignore the story of the movie. If a producer would come to you to ask you to create a story about Captain Kirks return, what would one of your ideas be? How would you bring back old Kirk? What would one of your ideas for such a story be?
There are a lot of ways to bring back Kirk and undo Generations. But many of them would be cumbersome and probably would not belong in this movie. If the rumors are true and this is a time travel story, then the Older Kirk can be alive at the end without any explanation needed other than the butterfly effect, which is a consequence of almost any time travel story.
I must admit it is a story problem. But I have faith that the team behind the movie can put something together. They’ve done it before on Alias. And from what I’ve heard, the Libby character will be appearing on Lost again, even though she’s dead. It can be done, but it has to be done carefully.
I think it is worth doing, and I think the team behind this movie agree, which is why they’ve said that they are desperately working on a way to involve him.
I suspect that something will probably get worked out. If the final decision had been made to keep Shatner out of the movie, I think we would have heard about it from JJ. They do have a built-in excuse: Kirk is dead. Also, if it were final that he won’t appear in the movie, I think Shatner would be reacting differently.
But what I wonder is…
If things don’t get sorted out quickly, will he have enough time to grow his sideburns? He forgot to grow them for Generations, and had to use fake ones.
They didn’t inclulde Shatner because it didnt fit the story (plus old Kirk is dead). What would have been TRULY foolish is if they had included Shatner just for the sake of including him.
He isnt handeling this very gracefully with this continiuing bitching. Shame I have to say it but it’s how i feel: Shatner, STFU already.
I’m not one of the people who show so little respect for Shatner as to call him “old and fat”. But I do recognize that he looks markedly different now than he did in Generations, and that is a problem.
The Butterfly Effect you cite is insufficient, in my opinion, to address the problem of Kirk’s return to the screen — I don’t say resuscitation or rebirth, because I gather you are suggesting a case where an alteration in timeline makes it so that he was never swallowed up by the Nexus in the first place. I say it is insufficient because that leaves undone the resolution of how to prevent Soran from using the Nexus in the way he did such that the Enterprise-D is destroyed with no survivors. At best, this Butterfly Effect would have to show that not only does Kirk not get swallowed up in the Nexus, but Soran doesn’t engage in his villainous scheme either.
And I don’t think there’s a single person here who wants to mess around with that.
One last thing before I go to bed…
In light of all this debate, I think it might be interesting to consider what Shatner said in his book about how he and Nimoy would negotiate with the studio:
Years earlier, during the original run of the TV series, Leonard’s lawyers and my lawyers actually got together and drew up a favored-nation clause, which remained in effect throughout all of our Star Trek projects, and basically stated that whatever Leonard got, I got, and vice versa. With that in mind, whenever one of us entered into Star Trek negotiations, the other was unknowingly dragged along for the ride, and in time, we both learned how to manipulate the situation pretty well.
For example, thanks to that favored-nation clause, there was no need for both of us to hire a gaggle of attorneys and agents and jump into the lion’s den with every new Star Trek project. Instead, we could simply play good-cop/bad-cop. One of us would take a hard stand with the studio, while the other just sort of smiled and said “Well, I’m not looking to make any waves, but I think my friend is really going to take a hard stand this time. I think you’re really going to have to give in to his demands.” Ten minutes later, we’d of course call each other, offering advice and support, and conspiring as to the plan of action that would prove most successful in our quest. With each successive Star Trek film, we alternated as the troublemaker, and when Star Trek IV came around, it was simply my turn in the barrel. Additionally, although Leonard could never openly support my battle (and in this instance he even helped my cause by publicly feigning annoyance with my fight, urging the studio and me to come to terms with a minimum of delay), he was nonetheless fully aware and supportive of my efforts. He would ultimately return the favor on Star Trek V. (page 244 of Star Trek: Movie Memories)
What do you guys make of this?
At the very least, it shows that these negotiations sometimes involve manipulation and playing the “bad-cop”. It has happened before, so it is unlikely that Shatner’s recent dissatisfaction is going to piss off TPTB so much that it causes him to get left out of the project. I think everyone involved in the project will understand that there are bumps and bruises involved in getting these deals done.
All this bickering has grown tiresome.
I want Shatner in the movie and I’d like Abrams and Co to make up their damned minds.
Either include him or dont.
In other words, it’s not just a matter of undoing the causal dependency of Kirk’s death on the Nexus, but the causal inter-dependency of Kirk’s death, the Nexus, Soran, Picard, and the death of everyone on the Enterprise-D — all of these components are linked together, and you cannot address one without the others.
Such is the state Generations left us in. It is not a happy one, but it is canon.
P.S. My last two posts refer to #180 Kirok Fan, and they are meant to go together as if in one post. Sorry.
I can’t imagine it being a story issue to nor include Shatner as old Kirk. Because Nimoy said that the story would be better with Shatner as old Kirk after he read the script.
179.
I think i would clone him from a mosquito in amber.
#182. 4 8 15 16 23 42
You make an interesting point, and it’s got me thinking. That’s for sure.
The butterfly effect could easily explain Kirk not being on the Enterprise B to be swallowed by the Nexus.
I take it you are saying, though, that if Kirk hadn’t been swallowed by the Nexus, he wouldn’t have been able to jump 60 or so years into the TNG-era future.
And that is a good point.
The butterfly effect in itself would not explain how Kirk had jumped forward 60 or so years in time while only aging about 13.
It is, of course, a possibility that Soran could still be a madman, but that the butterfly effect changes things with such subtlety that Kirk is swallowed by the Nexus but either Soran is not, or Soran’s actions do not lead to the destruction of the Enterprise D or the death or Kirk.
But you are right to point out that it is a bit more of a stretch than I originally stated, because of Kirk’s 60 year jump into the future.
This discussion reminds me of the Bradbury story with the guy who steps on an insect in the time of the dinosaurs and then comes back into the present to find that things are much the same, but with strange and apparently arbitrary differences – like an altered alphabet.
#188 Orci
That’s great!
If linear time does not exist in the Nexus, as I assume is the case, if they happened to be in the proximity of the Nexus in the new film’s pre TOS time, would they not still find Shat’s Kirk (or his “essence”) in the Nexus…???
…in theory…
#189 – Yes, when you said “Butterfly Effect” to begin with, I knew you were referring to the Bradbury story.
One could argue that there are infinite possible worlds, and among them a set where Kirk’ is not swallowed up by the Nexus, Soran does not hatch evil plans, the Enterprise-D does not get destroyed with all hands lost, and Picard does not end up in the Nexus either. In this set of possible worlds, Kirk never coincides with the TNG crew, because he never went into the Nexus. Instead, he just lives his merry life and dies sometime in the 23rd century. Call this scenario “It never happened”.
Another set of possible worlds would have Kirk end up in the Nexus, meet up with Picard, prevail against Soran, and simply not die, in which case he would die at some point in the 24th century. Call this scenario “Happily ever after”.
However, from the point of view of canon, old Kirk’s appearance in STXI, whether thanks to “It never happened” or “Happily ever after”, would have to be explained; it would not be satisfactory to simply state that one or the other obtained, without a visual exposition.
I’d say the “Happily ever after” scenario would be way too involved — it would require Stewart as Picard, McDowell as Soran, and the set of Veridian III. Plus, Kirk would have to look as Shatner did in ‘94. A STXI with this storyline, however, could show a “Unification” era or later Spock (Nimoy not made up to look younger than he is today).
The “It never happened” scenario is a lot more feasible, though we’d still need to see Kirk as he appeared at the christening of the Enterprise-B. A STXI with this storyline would have to show a Spock from that era, 80 or more years before “Unification” (Nimoy would have to be made to look that much younger, albeit by Vulcan standards of aging).
Here’s the real stumbling block to the “It never happened”scenario, however: How do you explain that Soran’s evil machinations never happen? Do you show a christening of the Enterprise-B in which no Nexus ever appears, and that’s that? If the Nexus never appears, why not?
It’s as if we made a Star Trek movie set at the time of STIV in which the extra-terrestrial probe never shows up to communicate with a Humpback whale. It is in the realm of logical possibilities, but we as viewers would want some kind of non-cursory answer, wouldn’t we?
#188 Orci:
You mean you’d write “Jurassic Kirk”? ;-)
fatshat didn’t mind ignoring his co-stars in the original series and sucking up all the lines on every page then. Looks like a bit of payback to me.
He had his days in the sun, considering star trek V, one too many days imop
JJ is making the best film he knows how to, stuffing the 300 pound Shatner in the script just makes no frieking sense.
Let it go tubby
#187
IMO, this is one of the arguments left with traceable reference to common sense.
By saying that there is no way to fit in Shatner as Kirk or suggesting that Shatner as old Kirk might weaken the script people claim to know more about the script than Nimoy. This is but…delusive.
#167
“Of course it just *could* just be the chamber’s coil…”
Nice reference. Gotta remember to use that one someday.
Everybody else – stand down from red alert.
Warms the hear to see so many replies that greatly undsercore my previous points. People reading through all this will realize it, while, oddly enough, those writing the replies do not.
If I were Mr. Shatner, I would not want to do a cameo, either. Where we differ is that I would not want anything to do with it at all.
A number of people seem to think that he is out beating a drum about this. I don’t think so. He is aware of the interest in it and has been asked about it and he has answered.
From the first time I heard about this project, I have been less than enthusiastic. I didn’t think it was possible, but with each announcement about casting, etc. I have grown even less enthusiastic.
No Shat, so sad, how will we survive?
Have to watch old eps of T.J. Hooker or something!
LLAP
Anthony,
I know you’ve set this whole thing up to report “any” news on Star Trek 2008, but please, do us all a favor & only report the definitive story officially announcing whether Shatner is in or out. Shatner’s bi-weekly whining & moaning begats fans whining & moaning & it’s all getting to be quite boring.
Thank you.
193. 4 8 15 16 23 42 – October 30, 2007
You state:
“However, from the point of view of canon, old Kirk’s appearance in STXI, whether thanks to “It never happened” or “Happily ever after”, would have to be explained; it would not be satisfactory to simply state that one or the other obtained, without a visual exposition.”
I guess that’s where we disagree. I don’t think we need the visual exposition, but you do.
Aside from the fun of seeing Shatner back, I’d like to point out once again what I think is the best reason for unkilling Kirk. As long as we think that Kirk gets squished between some rocks and that metal bridge, it does somewhat taint the adventures of Chris Pine’s Kirk. It is like a book where we already know the last chapter, and the last chapter sucks.
#188 Orci:
Is Richard Attenborough is still available. You have the Budget for it.
PLEASE BILL….Quit your whining and get over it already!!!
The franchise can and will get along very well without your egotistical presence. I stopped caring about you after “ST V” and after your hammy display in “ST VI” — And I really don’t care to see your bloated self stretching out a Starfleet uniform again.
Hey Bill, remember how just before filming “ST:TMP” you went on a crash water & exercise diet so you’d look 10 years younger?
Well you should channel all your energies into doing that again…..
instead of sitting around and very publicly crying in your beer that JJ doesn’t want you. By the look of how you stretch out all your suits on “Boston Legal” you should believe what we say….Diet, Bill, Diet….
Dear Mr. Orci,
Kirk/Spock in your movie validates passing the torch.
While these guys are alive, please find a way to include them.
They ARE Star Trek.
Trek at its best was about the cameraderie and dedication these crewmates had for each other.
Examine the most popular classic episodes and see what stands out in each and you’ll find what I say is true.
Even in ST5 with the shabby plot, it is the beginning and end of the movie that sings. The friendship these men have is heart-warming. It gave Trek its soul.
Shatner’s Kirk is emotional and passionate.
Nimoy’s Spock for all his touting his Vulcaness was a old softee under that green skin.
Heart and soul wins over special FX any day.
Good luck on your foray into Trekdom…passion!
204 Dusty – Sorry but please come back on here when you are 76 (oh if you are still around) post a picture of yourself and we will take the Pi** out of it.
Thank you.
195. daniel
You lost credibility with your first word – “fatshat.”
But I’ll explain something to you anyway. You state:
” fatshat didn’t mind ignoring his co-stars in the original series and sucking up all the lines on every page then. Looks like a bit of payback to me.”
There are a number of things to say about Shatner’s problems with his co-stars. First, when they began attacking him, he responded very graciously. Rather than counterattacking them, he tried to meet with them to sort things out and apologize for having upset them.
I think what happened was that in the original show, Shatner was the star, Nimoy was pretty much equally important, and then Kelley was next. The show was about Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Scotty got some good scenes, but the other co-stars were much lower on the ladder. I don’t think Shatner ever did think that the show was about the big 7. For him, I think, it was about Kirk, Spock, and Bones. And I believe he was right to think so. I think Roddenberry saw it that way too, back then. Then, over the years, as the show gained popularity, the other 4 actors really did become stars. They had conventions full of people practically worshiping them. When the movies came along, they were seen as somewhat essential – it just wouldn’t be the same without them. Meanwhile, TNG came along with a very different approach – that of an ensemble cast with important episodes being devoted to each member of the cast. On TNG, Patrick Stewart truly had about 6 costars. On TOS, Shatner had 2. Then, two things came together to cause the bad feelings: 1) in light of their stardom, and in light of the example TNG had created, the other 4 felt they deserved better, and 2) Shatner (understandably in my opinion) didn’t get that things had changed – and that the other 4 characters had become more important (at least to the fans).
But in the end, Shatner was gracious and attempted to make peace with all involved. You didn’t hear him publicly attacking them the way they did him.
I just wanna see some teal-colored singin’ plants. And then Spock looking at them with a shit eating grin and sense of wonder. That would make me feel all tingly inside.
MR ORCI…COMPLETELY unrelated…so you like the Uniforms? Are they pull over shirts…or updated uniforms that have a familiar vibe to them? Will we dig them?
#129: “Unless of course, those chiming in on a regular basis, rather than skipping these Shatner stories entirely, are predominantly Berman era fans adn they’re venting because their days are over. If they would at least admit their dislike for Kirk and TOS, at least the constant harsh opposition to the idea would make SOME kind of sense and I could at least wrap my mind around where they’re coming from.”
The fact that you can’t “wrap your mind around where they’re coming from” doesn’t mean that your conclusions are accurate; it simply means that you don’t understand their position.
For the record, I’ve been a Trek fan since “The Man Trap” premiered on NBC and prefer TOS to all other versions of the thing (TNG being my second favorite). Jeez, I wrote letters to NBC asking them to keep it on the air.
Of course, like the majority of folks who were vocal during the show’s network run I did think Spock was by far the coolest character on the show. ;)
Oh and Mr. Orci, please give us that vivid, multi-colored starfield with the reds and blues seen on your teaser poster. Space should have some color in it once in a while… like the Motare Nubula in STII:TWOK. That’s the one thing I totally disagree with on the Remastered project – - they took away the colorful starfields!
I would love to see some stuff like this:
http://heritage.stsci.edu/gallery/gallery.html
Thank you
I’m with those who think that it is possible that Shatner IS in this as Old Kirk in a secret part of the film that nobody except Nimoy, Shatner and some of the production team know about.
I’m not saying Shatner as Old Kirk NEEDS to be in this, I’m just saying that he COULD be included.
Here is a POSSIBLE way to include Old Kirk:
This IS supposedly about altered timelines. So in this film, the timeline is altered in some way that allows Kirk to survive on Veridian III. When Nimoy’s Spock returns to the 24th century at the end of this film, he is surprised to find Shatner’s Kirk alive and well. Cue the joyful reunion for the last 5 minutes of the film (although it wont be a reunion for Kirk, since he never died.)
This final scene of the film could be kept secret until fans see it on opening night.
They shouldn’t spend a whole lot of time showing/explaining the altered timeline that allows Kirk to survive. This should only be a small sub-plot and not a large part of the story.
Re: 201. TB
You know, i’m not telling you what to do, but you do have the option of not reading aything that disturbs you….
#202 Kirok Fan: Well, if you (and others, like #212) feel that no visual exposition is necessary, that is a valid point of view.
Me, I would feel cheated, like “they changed the story behind our backs… how cheap”. Even the end of STII:TWOK placed the seed for STIII:TSFS. Imagine if Spock had simply *poof* emerged from his coffin on the Genesis planet in STIII, without so much as a hint that it would happen. And, honestly, Spock’s “rebirth” has always bugged me, even with all the care they took to develop it.
Anyway, thanks for being respectful. You are literally the *only* pro-Shatner person I have interacted with who has not seen fit to berate me.
Here is (perhaps) a new thought.
Shatner is NOT in the first movie, but a cliffhanger alludes to the fact that Kirk is now alive in TNG time line.
Shatner reprises his Kirk role in the second movie that is “more than a cameo.”
Here’s a completely non-serious idea: What if they make an animated mini-feature undoing the end of Generations a la “Star Wars: Clone Wars”!
Hey, at least it would be cheaper than live action, and you wouldn’t have to worry about the aging of the characters. Then, you could just stick Shatner in STXI with no worries!
Ah, if only it were that simple.
Hovering around this forum is always interesting. Some comments:
1. Having had the pleasure of working with both Bill and Leonard about 10 years ago, I can attest to their “favored nations” agreement. It was rough negotiating with both of them, and we landed with one agreement before the other, so every time one thing changed in one of theirs the other had to be opened up again. Not sure if they still live by this agreement, but it would be hard to imagine Bill holding Paramount’s feet to the fire about equity in pay if the part is not the same size.
2. Someone in an earlier post said something akin to Leonard wants to know the story first and Bill wants to know the paycheck. While that’s a bit harsh, it does basically describe their approaches to things. On the project I worked with them on, Leonard was first and foremost concerned with the content and context of what we were doing – the amount he was getting paid was secondary. Bill didn’t involve himself as deeply in the content and context. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Bill is all about the money. He has a very clear idea of what he believes his time, his name and his presence are worth. If you meet that expectation, he shows up, does a great job of what you ask him to do and goes home. Now don’t kid yourself, Leonard also has a very clear idea of what he’s worth and can be just as hard when it comes to business negotiations. In fact, the entire original cast can be. They have a value as cultural icons, and if they are going to be forever associated with these roles (for good and for bad – as it has also limited them in their roles since then), then they feel they should be well compensated for continuing to perform in those roles.
3. All of that being said, I can’t say I disagree with most poster’s views – that calling the film makers “foolish” and so forth is a great strategic move. I can understand Bill’s dissapointment with not being in the film (as this doesn’t seem to be a ruse, but who knows) and I wish he would express his feelings in a way that garners more sympathy and makes him look like a real pro. I’d rather hear him say “Well, I wish they had figured out how to put me in it, as I feel it would be great to step into that character one last time, and I think it would have been great for the film, but I wish them all good luck.”
4. Canon. Good God, I’m so sick and tired of hearing about “canon.” You know how to avoid the “Generations” paradox? Screw it. Just don’t even deal with it. We don’t have to go figure out ways to bring back kirk from the dead, we don’t have to “re film” Generations. Just forget that it even happened. There are so many examples of movies with sequels that have ignored major plot points of their predecessors. Don’t sweat it. If this is a reboot, then just deal with the story from a “zero point” – everything else radiates out from this point. So in whatever way they write this story, it leads to some future where Kirk is alive. If you force yourself into the ever-diminishing box that is “canon” you’ll quickly write yourself into a plot that has nowhere to go and spends too much time explaining things and not enough time DOING things.
5. Mr. Orci. Bravo. Gotta love the way you lurk. It’s quite obvious that you’re here and reading just about everything. I love the way you just pop in with a humorous line and an intriguing comment every now and again, and let everyone just bicker and postulate, while you stay blissfully out of the fray. Something you already know – fans are a double edged sword. They are a great base when you’re doing something right, but they’ll turn on you they think you are doing something they won’t like. Forget all of it. Make a great movie and we’ll all be happy.
#165 “You sad people who can’t accept a new movie without Shatner waddling around looking like an overfed tick would ruin the restart of the franchise. Shatner isn’t a star these days, he’s a parody of himself. Just because he’s making good money at it doesn’t mean he’s a good actor. What stupid logic!”
-Queefer Bukkake
(Classy name, by the way. It fits.)
If the ubiquitous (
162
Hey, Anthony, I totally agree. I wouldn’t want the headlines either and I do not believe this is all a publicity stunt. But in my experience, negative publicity is exactly that – publicity. It is the type that gets people talking that would otherwise not be doing so.
Perhaps I’m being overly optimistic. An inevitable outcome seems to me that as more people talk in the mainstream, the more people will want to see just what exactly this controversy is all about.
The point is, people are talking.. ;-)
whoops – in my post I said “is a great strategic move” when I meant “is NOT a great strategic move.”
bmar #217
You bring up some very interesting points.
I can’t speak to William Shatner’s desire to be paid a lot of money. Or his expectation to have equal billing to Leonard Nimoy etc…
In a sense this isn’t even about Shatner. This is about giving the Kirk character a fitting send off.
I don’t care to comment on the business aspect. I just want to see my hero get to ride off into the sunset.
The way Kirk was done killed in Generations alienated me to the entire series.
I still think there is at least a 50% chance Shatner is in this film after all is said and done.
217 – kudos to you, thanks for the additional insights!!
213. Nicely put, and I do realize I have that option which I will now exercise……………………….
167:
I think the silence on the part of the writers and producers favors Shatner.
If they truly didn’t want the man in the film they would simply say it.
What they have said time after time is that they are still trying to get Shatner involved.
Roberto Orci hinted here a couple of days ago that they fear Shatner will open his mouth + give the entire story away. He has also said that “they could start filming without having closure on this issue”
#217 bmar, in re point 34:
The problem with ignoring canon when it comes to Star Trek is that it has no precedent within the franchise. Star Trek has thus far been pretty concerned with continuity and canon, despite the outright errors and “fudging” that has occurred from time to time.
Some notable examples:
> STII:TWOK references TOS episode Space Seed
> STII, STIII, and STIV are “episodic” in sequence, each referencing very specifically where we left our characters when last we saw them.
> STVI references the entire “history” of Starfleet’s dealings with the Klingons. The whole premise revolves around it.
> The Khitomer Accords established in STVI are referenced throughout the TNG series, and beyond.
> Generations references the TNG story of Guinan and her trouble with the Borg.
> First Contact sets down how Humanity first encounters extra-terrestrials, i.e. the Vulcans. This is, obliquely, like a big tie-in with TOS on.
> Enterprise references First Contact in its very premise, as if the two were “of a piece”. Enterprise also references TOS episode Space Seed.
There are, I’m sure, many other examples, but the point of these particular ones is that they stand out in my mind as examples where the writers & producers took the time and effort to work them in a “added flavor”. We, as fans, are meant to appreciate all this canon-building; it’s not just some incidental consequence, generated by obsessed fans as they find ways to escape from reality and immerse themselves in a show.
In short, I’m not sure that this “zero point” reboot idea is really gonna fly here.
#217 bmar
Now that was quite an intriguing post. I’d love to know where you worked with Nimoy and Shatner, but I can appreciate it if you’d rather keep it confidential.
As for the favored nations agreement, I’d love to know the specifics of how it works. My impression is that at the very least, they have to be paid the same amount. But does it go further than that? Does it specify that they have to have roles that are of similar importance? Would Shatner have any legal grounds to say, “Hey, Leonard is in, and our contract says that what he gets, I get. So you might as well use me because you’re going to have to pay me either way.”???
And bmar, I think your post is a fair one. I would really like to see Shatner in this film. I grew up watching TOS. Believe it or not, I named my son “Kirk.” But I have to admit that I wish Shatner had responded the way you suggest he should have. Although, people say slightly inappropriate things all the time – Shatner, unfortunately, has to see his missteps repeated over and over in the news and online. “Foolish” wasn’t the best choice of words, but it wasn’t the worst either.
^ sorry, in re point #4
To use one of his own quotes. . . Shatner, “get a life!”
217…thanks for the breath of fresh air. it was most welcome!
Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof. You know what you’re doing. If you have looked at your story and realised there is no scope to put Shatner in without disturbing the flow of the narrative and integrity of the movie, then resist all the calls of the fanboys, both here and in your heads.
Meyer stuck to his guns, make sure you stick to yours.
#210-
“The fact that you can’t “wrap your mind around where they’re coming from” doesn’t mean that your conclusions are accurate; it simply means that you don’t understand their position.”
So true. Nor does it mean my conclusions are NOT accurate.
See how easy that door swings?
Hi guys. First time poster. Let the feeding frenzy begin….
I agree that Shatner should stop complaining, at least publicly, that he’s not in the new flick. It’s either written for him to be or it ain’t. Deal or no deal.
As to whether or not the movie would be better or worse with/without him, I (and probably 90% of us here) am unqualified to judge that. Just see the damn movie and judge for yourself.
Now for something completely different:
As to all the worry about “fixing” Kirk’s death in Generations, I submit this:
Generations was an “Alternate Universe/Timeline” story. Think about it. Does anyone EVER remember Kirk EVER referring to ANYTHING in the old show, or any of the movies, as “FUN”? Does anyone ever remember him EVER saying “Sounds like fun”? Or ANY words to that effect? I submit that ST:G was Alternate UNiverse because Krik was written SO WWAAAAAYYY out of character. Seriously, Picard had “Make it so” and said it a couple of billion times. Spock: “Fascinating, et. al.” McCoy: “You green-blooded sonofa–” or WTTE. You get the idea. Scotty:”Me pooor Baaairns!” etc.
Thus, if you take this premise at face value as Generations being AU, then Abrams’ “fixing” the timeline for him to be alive again doesn’t sound so preposterous. Perhaps Spock realizes that Kirk’s dissappearance/death was temporally “wrong” and figures out a way to change it. Or in foiling the Romulans’ plot, fixes Kirk’s death anyway.
# 214. 4 8 15 16 23 42
You wrote: “Anyway, thanks for being respectful. You are literally the *only* pro-Shatner person I have interacted with who has not seen fit to berate me.”
Thanks. I see no need to berate anyone who is putting together thoughtful arguments and presenting them in a respectful manner.
# 216. 4 8 15 16 23 42
You wrote:
“Here’s a completely non-serious idea: What if they make an animated mini-feature undoing the end of Generations a la “Star Wars: Clone Wars”!
That’s great! It’s gotta be included on the DVD, though. And it’s gotta be CGI, not that old school animation used on TAS. ;^)
#165 “You sad people who can’t accept a new movie without Shatner waddling around looking like an overfed tick would ruin the restart of the franchise. Shatner isn’t a star these days, he’s a parody of himself. Just because he’s making good money at it doesn’t mean he’s a good actor. What stupid logic!”
-Queefer Bukkake
If the ubiquitous William Shatner, star of the hit Boston Legal, still famous worldwide as Captain Kirk, who doesn’t go a single day without appearing on tv somewhere, “isn’t a star these days” … who is? Please give us the definitive definition of what a star is. On second thought … nah, don’t. And if you think he’s not a good actor, you’re entitled to your opinion; fortunately, millions of fans (including the team behind this new movie), as well as those handing out Emmys disagree. I’m not going to argue with you, though – I’m sure you’re much more an expert on “stupid logic” than I am.
As far as all the NASTY personal attacks re. Shatner’s present day appearance I’m reading here, those are worthless for 2 main reasons:
-There are almost no other 76 year olds who look as good and, more importantly, exude as much strength and energy. Any one of us would feel lucky to be in that condition when we’re nearing octogenarian status, and we all know it.
- Making fun of the way someone looks is always the last refuge of those who lack the rhetorical skills to get their points across in any other way. It’s been the favored tactic of dim-witted elementary school bullies forever.
So it’s Mr. Shatner we need to be pleading with to be reasonable and appear in the movie then not the writers? It comes done to money and ego because of the size of his role and pay check? Surely the love of the character and seeing Kirk have a good send off must have some appeal to him? Surely there must be a way for everybody involved or not involved as the case maybe to sit down and sort something out where everybody wins?
Also Knowing Kirks fate is a tragic one kind of puts a cloud over Pine as young Kirk. This is probably the last chance to see Old Kirk and Spock on the big screen together and I have to admit I would be very disappointing if it doesn’t happen.
#219 Leonel
A previous manager of Michael Jackson used to famously claim that there was no such thing as ‘bad publicity’…
Unfortunately for all concerned…he was eventually proved wrong.
Now, I’m not saying that William Shatner’s absence from a supposed ‘TOS-themed’ franchise handover that has been designed to include an also aged Leonard Nimoy is anywhere in the same ballpark in the ‘bad publicity’ stakes…but it will certainly be continued to be commented on around the time of this Movie’s release by various critics, reviewers, and commentators…and that will be a pity.
Having an older Leonard in this is terrific, and having an older William in this would have made this handover TWICE as terrific…if the film-makers had just decided to write his character back into a story IN THE FIRST PLACE…
But it looks like they didn’t do that in the first place, and that is a missed opportunity that would have pleased many of this Movie’s potential audience…
225 – re: canon – i think you’re confusing “canon” with “story points.” Agreed, all of the things you mentioned used ST history as a jumping off point, either directly or indirectly, and for a time, it worked. Canon is great when you’ve got a great foundation to build on – if it gives you a great story connector or inspires something new. But right now, canon, for star trek, is a strait jacket. It’s a hinderance that has run (among many things) the franchise into the ground. This shouldn’t be written in stone. It’s fiction…it’s TV…it’s film – it’s entertainment, not science. You can re-write the rules, hell, you can even ignore them – especially if they are hurting you. The way I see it, if they want to have Kirk in the film, they can one of two things – write to the paradox (i.e. figure out some way to explain away the fact that he’s not dead) or (preferably, to me and to the majority of the viewing public that either didn’t see, don’t remember or simply don’t care about Generations) just IGNORE it.
I realize that it doesn’t sit well the purists, but sometimes you’ve got to throw the baby out with the bathwater and start over.
226 – Well, I’ve mentioned the project a few times, but try not to be overt about it. It was a great project to work on and I got to spend a good deal of time with both of them. One of my fondest memories was during a break in production when the three of us (just the three of us!) went and had lunch. I had to stay really cool and pretend that it wasn’t a big deal, but inside, i have to admit that my brain was jumping saying “I’m having lunch with Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock!”) Truly, they are both really good guys – VERY different. As to their contracts, my recollection of their contracts is that they had to have parity in everything – pay, role, billing, etc.
Sorry I meant to say, it would be very disappointing if it didn’t happen!
# 237
What you said about the favored nations clause is fascinating. In light of this info, how can the movie go forward without Shatner? In Generations, Nimoy passed, so that would have negated the favored nations clause for that project. But if Shatner isn’t passing on this project, and if Nimoy is already in, don’t they legally have to include Shatner?
If anyone has info, please clarify.
I’m steadily gaining confidence that he will be in the movie.
It doesn’t appear to me that Mr. Shatner is whining or even commenting repeatedly as some people like to point out.
Rather, it’s the media that seems to regurgitate the same story over and over again.
Having been in broadcast journalism for many years, I’m not sure that Mr. Shatner’s words actually changed from ‘foolish’ to ‘not wise’. Many reporters (believe it or not) have no qualms about ‘tweaking’ a quote to fit their headline.
Headlines, by the way, are sometimes written before the story – and reporters (not all, of course) then write the story and pick the quotes to match.
To summarize – nothing I’ve seen or heard from Mr. Shatner appears as whining or excessive. What does appear excessive is re-packaging the same statement over and over as a different statement.
BTW – enjoy these discussions A LOT!
Maybe they’ll find a way to put him into number 12.
217. bmar – October 30, 2007:
“4. Canon. Good God, I’m so sick and tired of hearing about “canon.” You know how to avoid the “Generations” paradox? Screw it. Just don’t even deal with it. We don’t have to go figure out ways to bring back kirk from the dead, we don’t have to “re film” Generations. Just forget that it even happened. There are so many examples of movies with sequels that have ignored major plot points of their predecessors. Don’t sweat it. If this is a reboot, then just deal with the story from a “zero point” – everything else radiates out from this point. So in whatever way they write this story, it leads to some future where Kirk is alive. If you force yourself into the ever-diminishing box that is “canon” you’ll quickly write yourself into a plot that has nowhere to go and spends too much time explaining things and not enough time DOING things.”
Excellent point, and i’m surprised anyone issued a complaint about it; Enterprise was alleged to alter/disregard canon on several occasions and certain fans accepted that. The Wrath of Khan had the titular villain recognizing Chekov, when Chekov was not on the series in season one to encounter Khan in “Space Seed.” Yet people seemed to tolerate this.
Now, i’m not suggesting rewriting anything and everthing if it does not “fit” but it seems clear that too many people resent the plot of “Generations.”
If this new film is to be a fresh look into the past of TOS characters, then the failings of latter-era Trek should be disregarded outright, as it only serves to weigh down the new film with nonsense which aided the death of the franchise in the 1st place–meaning a plotline blasted enough that it would not help the new film by acknowleding what could be a stumbling block.
#237 “or (preferably, to me and to the majority of the viewing public that either didn’t see, don’t remember or simply don’t care about Generations) just IGNORE it.”
Thank you! I’ve been saying the same thing for months. Which is greater – the concern that a few people who remember Generations might scratch their heads at seeing Kirk – or the joy of seeing one last big screen reunion between Shatner and Nimoy? We all know which option most of the public would prefer to see! The novelization can explain how Kirk is alive. Another easy out is the fact the story reportedly involves tinkering with the timeline. Having Shatner in the movie does seem very possible if all the involved parties want it to happen. Enjoying your posts, bmar.
#240 “To summarize – nothing I’ve seen or heard from Mr. Shatner appears as whining or excessive. What does appear excessive is re-packaging the same statement over and over as a different statement.”
Also correct. Thank you.
#240. Lostrod
I agree completely
#231:
“#210-
“The fact that you can’t “wrap your mind around where they’re coming from” doesn’t mean that your conclusions are accurate; it simply means that you don’t understand their position.”
So true. Nor does it mean my conclusions are NOT accurate.
See how easy that door swings?”
Wrong. It means that since you admittedly don’t understand what they’re saying or why, whatever conclusions you’ve formed are guesswork at best, fabrication at worst. :lol:
#79 good post. I agree. It does surprise me to see so much bile targeted at Bill. Quite shocking really. And very depressing as well.
The question I have is (and have been asking it, to no answers, despite it being a logical question):
What era will we see older Kirk in, then? If he ends up alive in this altered timeline, in TNG era he will be in his 150’s or so, right?
How will he still be alive at that point?
Is anyone able to answer this, or has it been figured out yet in the “Shatner must be in the movie” campaign?
#232
Interesting.
Good to see that during the last two hours or so this thread is starting to make sense again. Less cruelties from the mirror universe – some fresh minds and thoughts from outer space. Tentatively promising.
#246 : “79 good post. I agree. It does surprise me to see so much bile targeted at Bill. Quite shocking really. And very depressing as well.”
Well, for whatever reason people seem to take celebrity bad behavior personally.
There’s no good reason for people – to whom they are strangers – to rant online against celebrities like Paris Hilton, Britney Spears or Lindsay Lohan either, yet they do.
Speaking of bad business decisions… Shatner should have never agreed to be killed in Generations.
247 – I’ll give you an answer…a guess. IF (and it’s a big if) Kirk is in the movie…
Given what I said about forgetting about canon… Kirk is…76. Spock is however old Spock would be if Kirk is 76. There is no saying that whatever time we’re going to see “old Spock” in is in the TNG era. All that matters is that it’s after the TOS/TOS MOVIES era – in other words – after the last time we saw him in STVI.
And even IF we are to assume that the “old Spock” scenes take place in a TNG era, you’re making the assumptions based on today’s viewpoint on age and longevity. Who is to say that by the time the TNG era rolls around, humans may not be regularly living to 150 and beyond. Perhaps at 150, you look as “young” as a present-day 76 year-old. (ahem).
And yes I know die-hards will say that “canon” (ugh, God I hate that word) features a very old and decrepit McCoy in the first episode of TNG…I’ll do away with that as well…maybe McCoy, being the “old country doctor” (ugh…see my other post about Urban’s casting) that he is – he didn’t buy into the technological advancements that would have kept him looking and feeling younger. After all, we know how he felt about technology in general.
Hope that answer helps!
You know, thinking a bit further about my previous post (251) – I’ll say this. Shatner definitely had a point a few days ago when he said “this is science fiction, they can do anything they want” (perhaps not an exact quote, but the gist of it)
He’s right. This is first and foremost a work of fiction. All it takes is an imaginative mind and good writing skills and just about any issue goes away. Secondly, on top of that it is a work of SCIENCE fiction, which really opens up the possibilities – we can do or say just about anything.
I wish, I wish, I wish that people wouldn’t get so hung up on so many details. I wish they’d stop saying “YOU CAN’T DO THAT!” and relax.
What’s important here?
Is it a compelling story that will keep me riveted for 2 hours?
Does it surprise me?
Is it original, inventive and innovative?
Does it treat the characters we love with respect?
Are the actors good in their roles?
Did I walk out of the theater feeling good about my $9 I spent on the ticket?
Will I want to show my kids this?
If the answers to all of those questions are yes, then I’m in.
Here are the questions I could care less about:
Do the actors look EXACTLY like their TOS counterparts?
What about (insert episode/movie title here)? Hey wait! That doesn’t fit!
Oh my God, the handrails on the bridge aren’t red!!!
And so on…
I reiterate my plea – make me a great movie that makes us all happy, and a thousand small sins will be forgotten.
Um. I must be confused. Am I correct in understanding that this new movie takes place in an alternate reality, like a parallel universe? Wha?
If true, my excitement level just went way down – - – I would think it would diminish the enjoyment of the whole experience, since the original crew is just a mirrored crew and not the original people. What the hell…?
It’s a matter of math…
Kirk in the first part of Generations is 60 when he enters the Nexus…he is 60 when he comes out, despite 78 years having passed.
If Spock warns Kirk about the E-B incident and he avoids the Nexus chances are, in the “current” 24th century time frame the older Nimoy/Spock is from, Kirk is still dead…or he is about 150 years old.
I guess that could be the cameo, similar to what the late DeForest Kelly did on the pilot of TNG, appearing at the age of 137.
On the other hand, if the older Spock warns the younger Kirk about Soran and the falling bridge on Veridian III then today’s Shatner would approximate Kirk’s 24th century age.
Ah what a tangled web we weave when the Nexus we asked you to believe…
#249 … Bad behavior? Uh … Hilton, Spears, and Lohan have all had repeated scandals, run-ins with the law, drug issues, and jail time. (They’re also all talent free, but we’ll let that slide for now.) It’s just kinda not the same situation. To say nothing of the fact that this is a Star Trek FAN site, not a celebrity gossip BBS.
#221,
“The way Kirk was done killed in Generations alienated me to the entire series.”
Agreed!
There are a lot of you out there for sure!
Even Trek fans who hung in a lttle longer after 94″, still had a sinking feeling after going to see Generations.
There are many ex-fans that need to return!
Nimoy is a good start, but we also need Shat’s Kirk!
Star Trek in many ways is still broken & needs fixed!
Some folks look at the word “fixed” as a bad word.
However I do not. Rick Berman screwed it up.
Its up to JJ to fix it.
Or be another demon like Rick & Brandon.
I would also blame Moore but he paid for
his sins rebooting Battlestar!!!!!!
BECAUSE IT NEEDED TO BE SAID AGAIN!
Please read post #70. Is there ANY support for this idea here?
Seemed like a no brainer to me.
- – - – - – - –
HOW ABOUT A NEW STAR TREK SERIES to compete with the new Star Wars series? You could have it occur just like Lucas is doing with Star Wars. Between TOS Episodes 4 and 5.
There, no additional thinking needed.
- – - – - – - –
Nuff said.
William Shatner is a North American Treasure!
To me, he is my SCI-FI TV Movie Dad!
Those bastards killed him off.
He needs a Resurrection!!!!
Superman Style!!!!!!!!
Star Trek needs a Resurrection!!!!
Look at the numbers Paramount!
Besides screwing with our emotions/religion/reason for living,
you have turned your back on one of the guys who made Star Trek great.
Bring him back to life!
Bring Star Trek back to life!
Boston Legal is on tonight!
Check out Uncle Shat!
He is in his second Golden Age!
#255 thank you! To compare Bill to those individuals was really rather daft.
245-
“Wrong. It means that since you admittedly don’t understand what they’re saying or why, whatever conclusions you’ve formed are guesswork at best, fabrication at worst. ”
I guess I missed that part of my post, where I declared my theory to be absolute fact, which you seem to insinuate.
Oh…maybe it’s because I never did!
I said:
“Unless of course, those chiming in on a regular basis, rather than skipping these Shatner stories entirely, are predominantly Berman era fans adn they’re venting because their days are over.”
I simply offered a possible and even probable scenario to explain the puzzle that continues to boggle my mind. Nothing more, nothing less.
bmar — Just to clarify, I did not make my arguments in post #225 as a way of arguing for dealing with the Generations climax. I have to admit, going with a “zero point” reboot has its appeal — I’d rather have that than any of the “quick and painless” undoings of Generations.
As a fan, I’m just not sure I want to let go of “the story thus far”. I wonder what a complete reboot would do to my enjoyment of the movies and series thus far. With Battlestar Galactica, it’s a different story because I consider the original crap, so I don’t feel I need to respect it. But there are folks loyal to the original BSG who refuse to watch the reboot. So, from the point of view of the greater “franchise”, the reboot idea was risky. It seems that that risk would be substantially greater with Star Trek.
It strikes me that not having Shatner in this movie may be a reasonable price to pay for keeping with canon and having a seamless “passing of the torch” with old Spock alone. It’s ironic that the prospect of putting the original captain Kirk in STXI would require a “zero point” reboot at this stage.
Kirk died in Generations. He had his ’send off’ whether we like it or not. I want to see a great Star Trek movie, not something contrived just to sell tickets. Ultimately, a cameo must SERVE the story, and it sounds like they simply couldn’t find a plausible way to resurrect Kirk or otherwise make his cameo meaningful.
#257 — I suspect that if STXI does well, they will parlay it into a new series. I have thought this was one motivation for getting relative unknowns cast.
4 8 15 16 23 42 re: 261
I don’t think we need to let go of the story thus far. Just the parts that don’t work! Seriously.
I think the “reboot” idea takes with it the parts of the trek history and lore that work and jettison the parts that don’t. I come back the idea that history shouldn’t be something that restricts you.
I think this applies to the Shatner question and a host of other issues.
I didn’t read all the posts here, so pardon if I echo someone else.
I love Shatner, but I think we all know he’s got a HUGE ego.
I hate to tell you, Bill, but it’s been proven time and time again, over decades, that there CAN be successful TV shows and movies WITHOUT your participation. Truly. I’ve seen it done.
this is dead end rhetoric. Unless you believe in a last minute casting or a secret plot to hide his employ in this movie….
It isn’t happening, and no amount of fanboy plot devices or pleas to Roberto Orci may change it.
JJ and the Bad Robot people DO NOT have to reply to our curiousity or demands. They are busy making us a (hopefully) good movie.
As someone said, Shatner may be interviewed every day. I tend to think not, but I’ll let that go. But even if frustrated, he’s not helping his cause or that of the franchise that proclaims to love and profitted from a great deal.
Here we go again…;) It just hit me just now. Imagine if Mr. Shatner is skimming through the threads on this site about him. Imagine the ego stroke your name brings up and all this people typing about you.;) If you are reading this Mr. Shatner I have enjoyed your work and IMPULSE aaaaaa… never heard or saw of that one.;) Okay all humor aside. Can’t we let it all go, what shall happen shall happen. If he is in the film what a nice surprise…if he isn’t and it is a great film what another nice surprise. I can let it go. Although what must if feel like to be so talked about and thought about? I have a hard enough time having people see or even rank my moji. But that is another story.;) Fame I think I would take the riches without the fame.
Still I am starting to get a touch excited for this film about a year and a month away. You know how fast time flies!
PS…Oh yeah I forgot this…to any of you in the SF BAY area you should check this out…
Thursday, November 8, 9:15
Cerrito Speakeasy Theater
AT THE CERRITO SPEAKEASY THEATER
- 10070 San Pablo Avenue, El Cerrito, 94530
http://www.cerritospeakeasy.com:
It’s the return of the ever popular THRILLVILLE SHATFEST: TRIBUTE TO WILLIAM SHATNER
featuring the first-ever Cerrito Shatfest and the Shatfest debut of Big Bill’s infamous, legendary all Esperanto-language, devil-worshipping cult classic
INCUBUS (1965)!
- a mint 35mm print from the producer Tony Taylor!
Plus THE DEVIL-ETTES live on stage!
http://www.devilettes.com/
Admission: $8
I love these Thrillville shows. What a better thing than a tribute to the MAN himself. Mr. Shatner!
Seems like Shatner won’t do a cameo for the fans,just use them in the fan media to muscle in in the bargaining process for a larger role or more money.
#260 … jonboc, your point was a good one, no matter how people tried to convolute it. I know no one wants to be labelled, and some of those who are against Shatner appearing in the film ARE able to make their points without being moronic jerks. But I too have been shocked by the apparent hatred coming from some. Like you, #246 and others, I don’t understand it either. If Anthony opened up a Voyager thread tomorrow, I wouldn’t be in there expending negative energy, spewing bile and trying in post after post to insult its cast. What a horrible waste of time.
Also, I haven’t seen many comment on the part where Shatner called the current team “knowledgeable people and wonderful entertainers”. Just because he feels he should be in it, does not mean he’s against it!
As has been said 1,000 times before, Shatner agreed to kill his character. That was step one in guaranteeing that you don’t appear in Star Trek anymore. He seems to have made the next step in ensuring his omission from any further Trek appearances by publicly insulting the makers of the movie. Someone said about a hundred posts ago that Shatner was only responding to the media’s questions and not bitching. It looked to me that he was being interviewed by his daughter. Not exactly what I would call hard-hitting journalism. More like a calculated media ploy. Captain Kirk was my childhood hero and it saddens me to see the actor that portrayed him act so petty in public. It certainly is lending credence to all the claims of the other cast members of the show saying that he was a class A asshat to work with. Nobody cares what my opinion is, but if I would hope that William Shatner stop trying to sabotage the films success with his self-serving public statements and begin to comport himself with some modicum of dignity.
#26 Xai
I can pretty much guarantee you that there will be some last minute casting. We still don’t have Pike confirmed.
bmar — I thought by calling it a “zero point” reboot, where “everything else radiates out from this point” you were suggesting a completely blank slate for Star Trek. I reread your original post about it, #217, and I realize you are confining yourself just to the events in Generations. But I assumed you were talking about STXI as a whole being a complete reboot. Even so, it makes sense that I should have thought that — it’s because by throwing out the climax of Generations in order to include old Kirk in STXI, it would indeed cast doubt in many viewers’ minds as to whether the new movie with the new cast is at all “true” to the rest of the canon. I’m not sure you can just throw out one thing… it could well be a “slippery slope”.
#252 “I reiterate my plea – make me a great movie that makes us all happy, and a thousand small sins will be forgotten. ”
Amen!
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
#271.
I wonder what other figures in the industry think of Shatners ranting? It’s a shame he’s not able to accept old kirks exclusion with dignity and even a greater shame he doesn’t do the cameo just for fun and to be a part of the new Trek. That’s all that should matter really, being a part of it however small.
The upshot of that is that it remains to be seen how they handle it.
At this point, I don’t want to see a return to Generations at all, whether that be because Shatner’s not in it, or because they reboot on the question of his demise.
273
To paraphrase (badly),
“Canon, canon, canon. Canon is only the beginning of wisdom.” ;-)
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
#276 in re #273, as a follow-up. sorry.
#271 “Someone said about a hundred posts ago that Shatner was only responding to the media’s questions and not bitching. It looked to me that he was being interviewed by his daughter.”
That was on a Shatner-Vision awhile back. And the gentleman who shot the video came here and informed us that Bill doesn’t receive the questions more than a few minutes ahead of time. Old news. The comments everyone’s responding to now come from the Associated Press. It might assist your ability to contribute to the discussion if you actually read the article we’re discussing.
#278
Duh! I just now got the significance of your screen handle! Glad to see a fellow “Lostie” here as well!
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
Here is what I still don’t understand…
1. Shatner and Nimoy have a favored nations agreement, stating that as far as Star Trek is concerned, whatever one gets, the other gets.
2. Nimoy is in the movie.
3. Shatner wants to be in the movie.
4. Shatner is not in the movie.
We have been told that each of these statements above are true. And yet, it is hard to understand how they all could be true. How can the project legally go forward without him? I find it very curious.
I think one of the above statements must be false. Some possibilities:
- the favored nations agreement is not what we think it is
- Shatner does not genuinely want to be in the movie
- Shatner will be in the movie
This is why I am suspecting that he will be in the movie.
bmar – can you make any sense of this?
If Shat’s so damned protective of his character, and so convinced in his arrogance that Kirk MUST be played by him, why on earth when he read the Generations script (assuming, of course, that he acctually READ the thing before shooting it) did he allow the character to be killed off? I mean, I understand the original version of the death scene was crap and was rewritten into what we all saw on the screen (and was not really any lesser crap), but wouldn’t one think an actor of his self-proclaimed integrity would have said (a la Nimoy’s protectiveness of Spock) “Time out, here, fellas. Why does Kirk have to die? Why can’t he…?” In reference to my previous post, why were his dying words “It was…Fun” when he NEVER said any such thing through at that point what? 29 or thirty years of Trek?
Seems to me, as others have so eloquently stated, that the Shat’s have feelings of remorse and guilt over the demise of his alter ego, and is trying to get back into Trek’s good graces, but not really doing a very good job of it.
276. 4 8 15 16 23 42
You state:
“At this point, I don’t want to see a return to Generations at all, whether that be because Shatner’s not in it, or because they reboot on the question of his demise.”
Generations made so little sense that I don’t want them to return to it either. Unfortunately, I think they at least have to mention the events that occurred in it, don’t they?
If the young Spock and young Kirk are in the movie, and so is the old Spock, then wouldn’t it at least be appropriate to have Old Spock at least reflect on Kirk’s death? I don’t know, but it would seem odd to me if the relationship between young Spock and young Kirk is established, but nothing is said about the Old Kirk at all.
#279
You don’t seem to care for my opinion too much. I did read the article. Do you think that the AP reporter just came up with the idea to interview Shatner about his exclusion out of the blue? Certainly it’s conjecture and speculation but it seems to be quite coincidental that shortly after his Shatnervision interview with his daughter, the press called upon him for an interview. I don’t think what I said was invalid. JJ Abrams hasn’t said anything snarky about Shatner publicly. William Shatner is not helping his case, in my opinion. I think he is hurting his image with his fans with his statements. Saying nice things one moment and then calling someone’s decision foolish and unwise is a backhanded compliment and is generally regarded as “not nice”. Also, I do not wish to get into a pissing match with you, Shatner_Fan, but my ability to contribute on these boards is not the question. You are an intelligent person as evidenced in you’re ability to express yourself. I ask that we try to not be insultive because we don’t see things from the same point of view.
Well said #282.
He agreed to go with the GEN script.
OH WELL…
JJ: Either get with the creative writing- FAST- or leave him dead.
Vulcanista — Not only am I a “Lostie” but Spock is my favorite TOS character. Vulcans rock — Tuvok and T’Pol are the main reasons I watch Voyager and Enterprise, respectively.
You know what would solve all of this? Paramount coming out and saying, “We hereby withdraw Star Trek: Generations from Star Trek canon.” That or something close to it. That would solve a ton of problems. They just need to make it so that the events of that film simply don’t count.
It’s also pretty well understood that shooting scripts get rewritten on-the-fly as it were, but only for minor tweaking or for lines that don’t quite work, things of that sort. I don’t see how at thislate stage (rehearsals already begun, cast ninety-nine percent in place) that any accommodation for the Shat could be made with a MAJOR restructuring of the entire premise, story, and script, or without having it feel “tacked-on”. (i.e., Generations ENTIRE opening sequence…) And that whole damned thing could have been scrapped, IMHO, and the movie could have just started right in at Worf’s promotion shindig. It was completely unneccessay, anyway, other than a silly reason for Berman and Co. to finally introduce Enterprise B, which was a half-@$$ed retool of the Excelsior any way.
#282 — I think Shatner wanted a big send-off to Kirk as much as the writers of Generations did. It was a big mistake, but I blame the writers more than I blame Shatner for that one. Whatever you may think of Shatner’s acting (and I’m no Shatner fan, but I think there are many moments when he truly shines as Kirk), he’s no writer, as STV:TFF will attest. The whole premise of Generations being an occasion to put the two captains together and give Kirk a heroic send-off was a stupid ploy. Surely it had the intent of pandering to the fanbase, and ironically but perhaps predictably it did the opposite.
It seems like most people in here are taking extreme sides. Its either, bring back shatner or i wont see the movie! or f shatner i cant wait to see this awesome movie!!
I also find it funny that everyone has such strong opinions about whether or not shatner would fit into the script, yet no one except for Mr. Orci has even seen the script… doesnt make much sense either way, does it?
I tend to be somewhere in the middle. Personally, the death of Kirk was not a happy one, and I hate to think that the CHARACTER of Kirk died that way. I could care less about shatner. Hey, I love the guy and his work, but im more about BRINGING BACK KIRK, not bringing back shatner.
Just remember Mr. Orci, if shatner wants to play hardball, or if you cant fit him into the script, an “easter egg” that pretty much lets us know Kirk didnt die would do just fine. Thats all I ask, and you can do it with one line.
So, if possible Mr. Orci, PLEASE, bring back KIRK, with or without Shatner.
Follow-up to #288,
I agree with #287. Scrap the whole damned thing. Write it off as a bad decision and let it go at that.
290 -
Something like:
Pike: “Shields!”
Spock: “Romulans closing to 150,000 kilometeres, Captain.”
Pike: “Arm photon torpedoes!”
Shatner’s disembodied voice off camera: “Hey guys, I didn’t die on Veridian IV.”
Spock: “All weapons ready, sir.”
Pike: “Unleash hell!”
It’s an old story, Shatner is still paranoid about being upstaged by Nimoy, even after all these years. Didn’t KIRK DIE IN ONE OF THOSE MOVIES ANYWAY? ahem…oh, that’s right it was a very perfunctory and anonymous death, not the viking burning on a longship that the SHATS ego requires.
yeeesh. Sylar needs to steal his brain I think.
#287-288/291
Hey you two. No messing with timeline. You’ll get the temporal cops on you quick-like. Generations doesn’t happen, maybe the Enterprise D isn’t a good enough ship to go after the Borg in First Contact we all get assimilated in the past (future?), Star Trek never happens because we’re all Borg and don’t watch TV.
Wait a sec…….what? Dammit…….OK, let me think about this. Anyway, don’t mess with the timeline just yet til we analyze all the component elements.
#289
Well said…
#287
ITA! Your screen handle says it all.
Nexus and Nexus! What is Nexus??
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
cast picture please.
Mebbe Generations was one of those quantum realities and not canon at all… ;P
You make-a my head hurt.
It is kinda sad seeing Old Kirk not get the role. Not even a Cameo?
I may be like Shatner having to finally deal with the reality of his mortality.
Kirk dealing with the concept of death and the Kobayashi Maru.
Read my blog about Star Trek and listen to an audio podcast analyzing the original episode Specter of the Gun
http://www.hotconflict.com/blog/2007/10/j-j-abrams-pick.html
232 – The line “It was…fun!” was Mr. Shatner’s own line he suggested, meant to sum up how Kirk felt about his life and many adventures as well as Mr. Shatner’s time in Star Trek. I believe he said that was the case in “Star Trek Movie Memories.”
In regards to bemar’s “Forget Canon” suggestions, I believe that breaking out of the lock is one of the major aims of this “Course Correction” film JJ and crew are making. Not so much as “Forgetting or Disrespecting” established Trek Lore, but setting things forth to where a new set of adventures can occur without disregarding the past.
Lets get this sucker to 500.
Long Live Shatner’s Kirk!!!!!!!
#301
Despite its origin, the line seemed then (and still seems) out of character for JTK.
# 290 I really agree with the spirit of what you say. If it could be with Shatner involved all the better.
#281
“Here is what I still don’t understand…
1. Shatner and Nimoy have a favored nations agreement, stating that as far as Star Trek is concerned, whatever one gets, the other gets.
2. Nimoy is in the movie.
3. Shatner wants to be in the movie.
4. Shatner is not in the movie.
We have been told that each of these statements above are true. And yet, it is hard to understand how they all could be true. How can the project legally go forward without him? I find it very curious.”
I think if the producers offered Shatner a cameo and he turned them down, it would be more or less the same as Nimoy passing on his offered cameo for “Generations”. If the actor opts out, the contract is void. Just a thought.
#305
“I think if the producers offered Shatner a cameo and he turned them down, it would be more or less the same as Nimoy passing on his offered cameo for “Generations”. If the actor opts out, the contract is void. Just a thought. ”
Doesn’t that constitute the contract? Nimoy was offered, and refused, and if Shatner is offered and refuses, then contract satisfied….
#301 ( 2)
I agree – but I think the reverse is what is actually done at present. Not involving Shatner as Kirk means disregarding the past, as the team Kirk/Spock is the most essential ingredient of what you aptly called established Trek Lore. In the view of the current scenario, a new set of adventures can and will most definitely occur, but those adventures will be limbs without relation to the body.
Oh, and I have been meaning to ask Robert Ocri: You have said that those concerned with the movie don’t want us to know anything for a very long time if you had your way.
How long is a long time, and how possible do you really think that is given the desire of the studio to promote the movie. For example are we likely to see trailers that don’t give away much of the plot?
i think the shat will be in it.
I think this is just another one of jj’s mind games and shatner is just in on it.
Jurassic Shatner?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v308/admiralkent/Jurassic_Shat.jpg
I also meant to say, here in the UK there is a kids show called the Sarah Jane Adventures, which is a spin off from Doctor Who.
Yesterdays episode (which I was watching whilst laying on the sofa feeling sorry for myself with a cold) had a Beam Me Up Scotty reference and a Captain Kirk reference.
Some kids were trying to make sense out of suddenly finding themselves on a spaceship.
Interesting in view of recent debates about the varying impact on popular culture of different Trek incarnations, I thought…
Xai
Robero himself said they will start filming w/out having the Shatner issue decided.
This is not a dead issue by any means.
After reading Mr. Orci’s description of the pitch meeting with Shatner (from the last Shat-media blitz), my feelings for this whole thing have shifted a little. I’m still excited about the movie and that won’t change, but I’m also worn out on the Kirk debate. My hope has always been to give Shat a small appearance as Kirk, and blow off the stupid death in Generations with a clever line. At this point, I’d be happy to see something happen that takes away the finality of Kirk’s lame death. It’s hard as hell to root for a character when you know his ultimate fate is so bland – y’know? But Shatner really doesn’t need to be on screen to fix it.
Besides, it sounds like he got a shot at this film, and for whatever reason he wants more than what was offered. So if “our” Kirk doesn’t appear, I’ve come to terms with it. At least we’ll be spared these rounds of 300-500 posts per interview.
And for the record, I am THRILLED to have Nimoy — Spock is enough of a Trek icon to pass the torch by his green-blooded self. Leaving Kirk’s fate a mystery is the approach that should have always been taken with such a mythical character.
At this point Paramount needs to swing the media away from the Shatner story, and show us some cool stuff to get excited about. We know the cast, so let’s see some sets! Or maybe the Enterprise herself . . . :-)
PS – Thanks to Mr. Orci for visiting these boards, and to Anthony for making TrekMovie possible.
#306 “Doesn’t that constitute the contract? Nimoy was offered, and refused, and if Shatner is offered and refuses, then contract satisfied…. ”
Yes. I was attempting to answer #281 Kirok Fan’s question as to how the production might legally go forward without Shatner’s involvement. Of course, I really am just guessing – all I know of this “Favored-Nation-Status” contract is what I read of it in Star Trek Movie Memories which was a while ago and, if memory serves, fairly short on detail.
1,700 posts dedicated to Shatner’s return since 10/17/07.
That does not take into consideration the many,many posts about Shatner in threads that were not dedicated strictly to him. Or the endless posts dedicated to him before 10/17/07.
This is just one site that 99% of S.T. fans don’t even know exists. I think it is a good microcasm of the S.T. community.
Shatner is the Holy Grail of Star Trek.
It would be ashame if he is not included (even a cameo of a live + well Kirk post nexus would do)
313
True Spock is enough of an icon to pass the torch, BUT Kirk needs closure. He needs a better ending.
If they at least offered Shatner a cameo + he turned it down at least we would know they tried.
I hate their silence on the subject.
What would really freak the public out–fans and non-fans alike–would be if Shat has completely pissed off JJ and Co, and they go the Edward james Olmos route, i.e. recast Elder Kirk completely! I mean, seriously, EJO is a great actor, but let’s face it, he looks NOTHING like Lorne Green! But it proves that a character can be completely rethought, and not lose its inherent integrity. Like, when the Two Darrens thing happened on Bewitched. The character suddenly switched actors ( I know, it was due to illness) , but NO mention of it, ZERO, was ever made by the show’s producers or in any dialogue. I agree ( I forget who said it above) that it’s the CHARACTER that’s important, not necessarily who’s playing it. And yes, i know, Shatfans are going to smell this blood I just spilled in the water, but oh well…
“Shatner is the Holy Grail of Star Trek”…oh brother!
Further on #317, what about the new Bionic Woman? I’m sure there are people out there who looked at Michelle Ryan and go, “Well, she ain’t no Lindsay Wanger”, but the show’s runners went for ti anyway. I think JJ should have (and it appears he does) the fortitude to go forward as he sees fit. I mean, yes, the fanbase is important, but the first priority is to make a GOOD MOVIE, that just happens to have Star Trek as it’s subject.
Further blood in the water, but that’s why Transformers was good. Michael Bay made a good MOVIE, that just happened to be about intelligent robots.
I thin that’s where a lot of movies based on already-established properties fail is that the producers get too hung up in whatever that property is, and forget to make a good movie (TV show, Broadway play, whatever) first and foremost. I saw MI III, thought it was okay, but it proves my point, JJ made a good movie, that just happened to be one of the Missions, Impossible.
BTW, in #317 I wasn’t advocating Edward James Olmos as Kirk! I was making an analogy…
mike thompson #206
thats a cracking post mate :o) one the best posts on here and i agree completely. made me laugh too! thanks
greg
united kingdom
after thinking about it maybe its best if Shatner does NOT appear……
Beyond the difficulty of bringing back Shatner as Kirk, (i.e. the fact he died in VII so unless they muck about with altered timelines or X3 style de-aging showing him pre Generations…its gonna be near impossible) and while I would love to see him in the film, at the same time theres something that could work in both shatners and the films favour should he NOT appear…
His absence would probably elevate the Kirk character and give him a sort of mysterious aura. What I’m saying is he’ll have a bigger screen presence by Shatner not being there than by being there as we all know from the previous films and TOS who he goes on to become…
Kinda like how Marlon Brando’s absence from ‘The Godfather Part II’ gave Vito an even bigger aura throughout that film…or more recently the new moon landings documentary ‘In The Shadow of The Moon’ where 9 crew members from every moon mission are interviewed – with the exception of Neil Armstrong who declined…and his omission ends up working in both his and the films favour as he becomes a mythic and elevated figure by his absence…
Thoughts?
#316: I totally agree. I’d like to see Kirk get a better ending too, plus have him and Nimoy together one last time. But I don’t think that’s going to happen now, since Roberto Orci mentioned recently that they did meet with Shat. So I’ll take an open-ended fate as the next best thing. Also, Shatner let Kirk die in ‘94, but he seems to have forgotten that lately.
Yeah, the silence from JJ & Co. is pretty conspicuous.
319. crazybeach – October 30, 2007
“Further on #317, what about the new Bionic Woman? I’m sure there are people out there who looked at Michelle Ryan and go, “Well, she ain’t no Lindsay Wanger”, but the show’s runners went for ti anyway. I think JJ should have (and it appears he does) the fortitude to go forward as he sees fit. I mean, yes, the fanbase is important, but the first priority is to make a GOOD MOVIE, that just happens to have Star Trek as it’s subject.
Further blood in the water, but that’s why Transformers was good. Michael Bay made a good MOVIE, that just happened to be about intelligent robots.
I thin that’s where a lot of movies based on already-established properties fail is that the producers get too hung up in whatever that property is, and forget to make a good movie (TV show, Broadway play, whatever) first and foremost. I saw MI III, thought it was okay, but it proves my point, JJ made a good movie, that just happened to be one of the Missions, Impossible. ”
The Bionic Woman and Transformers are not even the pop-cultural significance conversation with Star Trek–the same applies to M:I. Though the franchise has a geek stigma about it, there is a greater connection to all that was TOS–specifically the characters and their relationships.
There is a palpable legacy there, and that needs to be respected in not only the new story, but in any use or reference of TOS actors and their value to the concept–which in NO wat mean a blow to producing a good film. That little theory some keep offering is one of the stranger ones, as i’ve never witnessed a film flopping because it respected its roots.
#322: Those are some really good thoughts, especially with the Godfather and Armstrong parallels. If we’re stuck with Kirk’s death, at least they could bring some closure via his legacy.
One thing that has always bothered me about Generations was that Picard or Riker never mentioned Kirk at the end. Cripes, Picard quoted Soran instead.
So, is it about not liking how Kirk died, and folks want him back so he can die a more fitting way?
People in real life die everyday, and I’m sure it isn’t the most fitting way for them to die. They don’t get a death do-over.
We saw the whole original crew give their goodbye in 1991, let it go at that.
I think elements of this idea have been touched upon, but I haven’t seen them together, so here goes:
In this movie, Nimoy’s Spock (probably with some sort of prompt) relates his flashback to the ‘Good Old Days’. We end with some sort of regret at JTK’s passing (whether disappearance from Enterprise B or death on Viridian). Suddenly, Shatner appears! Spock lifts eyebrow and says, “I thought you were dead.” Kirk: “Reports of my death have been misleading (or some such).” End of movie.
We get Shatner, Shatner has a cameo in THIS movie, but probably a meatier one in the sequel, and the writers don’t have to rewrite a big chunk of THIS movie to accomadate Shatner and his ego.
Everyone’s happy!
- 326. RaveOnEd
Yes, that’s how I feel about it too. People don’t always have heroic deaths. Death can be you surrounded by your friends, it can be silent and lonely…with nobody knowing you have ceased to exist. There are so many possible outcomes…and we don’t get a chance to ‘do it over’ just because the first one wasn’t noble enough. My father died of leukemia last december, while I held him. It wasn’t pretty, it still haunts me…and I can’t have it back. That’s life, it hurts, but I respect it and appreciate life so much more…simply because we don’t get a second chance. In retrospect, the fact that Kirk’s end was so pointless actually speaks volumes about the character. It actually made the man out to be human, fragile, and as mortal as us all.
After what I’ve learned in the last year. I find the idea of resurrecting the character somewhat insulting.
[Sorry, this got left off of my previous post.]
And we have a ready-made tag for the next movie!
#324
Yes, I agree that Transformers and M.I. don’t hold a candle to the bright light of Trek’s cultural significance, I was just rying to illustrate a point.
#325: One thing that has always bothered me about Generations was that Picard or Riker never mentioned Kirk at the end. Cripes, Picard quoted Soran instead.
Picard couldn’t mention bringing Kirk out of the Nexus, history remembers that James T. Kirk died saving the Enterprise B, why would he want to mess with that?
Picard took something more from his meeting with Kirk than just a simple quote, he took what it really means to be Captain of the Enterprise, what it means to be a hero. He learned that it’s not all about duty and honor but making a difference while you’re on that bridge, in that captain’s chair.
328
So sorry…
Beautiful observation.
328-
Agreed. You can lead the fight to found a nation, be its first leader and a hero; and die of pneumonia after riding in a field on a cold day.
You can save a nation from tearing itself apart in the bloodiest 4 years in its history, and then almost immediately get shot in a theater by an egomaniac actor using a derringer.
You can save the world from thermonuclear war in a period of increased tension, and not even have your deed acknowledged by your people and even be fired for NOT letting the war happen.
Or have your brains blown out in a motorcade.
Or be shot while running for president and spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair, finally dying in old age from kidney failure.
Or be ordered to commit seppuku, bloch it and have to be ‘finished off’ by a servant.
Or be stabbed in your bathtub by a lover that has ’switched sides’.
Or supervise a revolution and be a victim of it.
My point is that there are NO ‘good deaths’. Death comes to all of us and we all have to play the hand we’re dealt and make the best of it.
number #326 &328
im really sorry guys but as uhura said in star trek 3 ‘this isnt reality…….this is fantasy’.
in real life as you say we dont always have the chance to have a herioc death but as this is fantasy we have a unique chance to make sure that our heroe captain kirk has an ending beffitting him. fans like me were annoyed about generations. it didnt and shouldnt have ended that way. in my opinion it was a deliberate attempt to get bums on seats but i also feel shatner should never have agreed to it either. he must take some reponsibilty for that.
i do understand where you are coming from but if spock can come back why cant kirk? i felt that james t kirk needs a decent ending unlike the one we were given – here is a chance to put it right. sadly it looks like it wont happen. i dont think there is any harm in fans wanting that-after all it is the movies and as long as its not making a nonsense of the story i think it culd be done well.
new horizon- i am really sorry to read that about your father. im sure everyone on here will agree it was very sad to read it. all the best
# 328 I’m sorry for your loss. You post was really touching.
I also just want to say to Roberto Orci I’m sorry for messing your name up in my earlier post.
I don’t like getting peoples names wrong, because I think it is rude, which was not my intent.
It’s the flu in my head that’s to blame!
I’m not well I tells ya…
#328 – New Horizon
My sincerest condolences. I too have lost my father(s) (both of them, actually, real and step-) many years ago.
No, in reality we do not choose the time of our passing.
326
Your argument is very valid, but these are cartoon characters. Part of their existence in the fictional sense is to take our mind off the cruel reality of our lives.
Every major S.T. character has died at one point or another only to be brought back.
What I love about Kirk is he defies the odds.
Besides, between the alt timelines of the new film +the nexus Kirk could be brought out alive and well.
Kirk did have a heroic death, he’s already had two actually. The one at the start of Generations (the better of the two and the official recorded one until the TNG encounter 78 years later) and the second one, falling from the bridge to stop Soren.
Two deaths is more than any character needs really.
328 – I’m so sorry for your loss.
I certainly do not want a new, “improved” death. My original thought was just to restore his ending as a mystery, which Star Trek 6 did so nobly. Thanks for the post.
I think his death shuold have been a bit more, shocking isn’t teh right word, but more believable.
Witness the death of Henry Blake. No doubt. No do-over. Just irreversibly, shockingly dead. And the other characters on MASH had to learn to deal with it.
If Kirk had had that kind of a death, while tragic, it illustrates that even in Roddenberry’s so-called perfect future, Death cannot be denied.
Nor should it be.
Now, if one monkeys around with spacetime, and avoids said irreversible, shocking death in the first place, well…..
I have to ask, why was Kirk’s death or Data’s death any less heroic or meaningful than Spock’s death when they all died for the same reason?
Spock died saving the Enterprise and her crew.
Kirk died saving The Next Generation crew and a whole planet of people.
Data died saving the Enterprise and her crew.
They all sacrificed themselves for the greater good, and all knew the risks involved. Just the same as running into a burning building that is about to fall, if you sacrifice yourself and it allows even three people to live, you are an example of a hero.
They were heroes, regardless of how they died.
339.
Once a chapter has been written and published you can’t erase it unfortunately. Yes it would have been nice if the sign off at the end of Trek VI had been the last we’d seen of the TOS crew until now, but that wasn’t the case.
#335
* *
* *
________
|____|
Poor baby! Here’s a nice pot of hot Plomeek soup for you!
Feel better.
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
# Aw. Thanks so much.
I think it’ll help. As will the Romulan ale I’m drinking… ; )
#339
“I certainly do not want a new, “improved” death. My original thought was just to restore his ending as a mystery, which Star Trek 6 did so nobly…”
Agreed. I would have been okay with his apparent “death” on the Ent-B and leave it a mystery.
Maybe show up on Voyager or something, when the Nexus wends its way through the Delta Quad.
341
Kudos and thanks for the reminder!
I’m glad some people are actually talking kindly of the way Kirks death was handled in Generations, thought I was the only one.
Hey Roberto, can you tell me what 2012: The War for Souls is about, in brief terms? Because from what I can tell, it looks like an awesome premise.
305 – nscates
306 – crazybeach
314 – nscates
Hey guys, thanks for trying to clarify things with regard to my question.
But I don’t know if it is as simple as you suggest.
First, Nimoy wasn’t merely offered a cameo in Generations. He was also offered the opportunity to direct the movie. This puts his offer much more on par with Shatner’s, I think.
Second, from what I’ve heard (check #237 bmar), their agreement states that their contracts have to have parity not just in pay, but also in terms of their role. So I’m not sure that the contract is negated if Shatner rejects a cameo while Nimoy gets an important part.
The other thing here is that we don’t really know that he was offered a cameo. He says he hasn’t even seen the script and that he can’t imagine what he’d do for a cameo. We don’t really know what he’s been offered, if anything.
Thanks again, though, for offering your ideas on the issue.
328. New Horizon –
– In retrospect, the fact that Kirk’s end was so pointless actually speaks volumes about the character. It actually made the man out to be human, fragile, and as mortal as us all. After what I’ve learned in the last year. I find the idea of resurrecting the character somewhat insulting. –
You make a valid point.
I would just like to rejoin that, for me, it’s not so much the cause of Kirk’s death that I find unsatisfying and would like to see redeemed, but more the execution of that plot point in the film, Generations, and indeed the rest of the film as well.
It was just all way too schlocky.
And, being that Kirk’s death was more or less arbitrary and not integral to the canon, it could be redeemed without coming off as stilted or incongruous.
What if, for example, as Kirk lay dying his apparently meaningless death he were to have a final epiphany and realize that he had neglected the one thing that was most meaningful to him in life? What if the dying Captain were to say to whomever was standing over him, “I blew it. Don’t do as I have done.” Or, some other meaningful perspective on his death?
And, this is not to imply that I would be opposed to a major change in the manner of Kirk’s death, but just to say that perhaps the awful film, Generations, might be redeemed without insulting you and others of like mind.
—————————
179. Admiral_Bumblebee –
– If a producer would come to you to ask you to create a story about Captain Kirks return, what would one of your ideas be? How would you bring back old Kirk? What would one of your ideas for such a story be? –
If you were to do Jurassic Kirk, what species would be used to fill in the missing Kirk DNA? Would the cloned Kirk be a mutant? One who could reproduce as either a male or a female?
As far as I know, the Evil Captain Kirk from the parallel universe is still kicking around. You could pit the cloned, mutant Kirk against the Evil Kirk in a kind of Alien vs. Predator spin-off. The sexual ambiguity of the mutant Kirk might even allow for some rather erotic possibilities
This would have the added benefit of giving the Kirk fanatics their gluttonous fill of Kirk, thus diverting their Kirk zealotry from Star Trek as a whole.
328. New Horizon – October 30, 2007
“People don’t always have heroic deaths. Death can be you surrounded by your friends, it can be silent and lonely…with nobody knowing you have ceased to exist. There are so many possible outcomes…and we don’t get a chance to ‘do it over’ just because the first one wasn’t noble enough.”
But we are talking about fiction in this case, where writers will often try to make something as memorable or significant as possible in special cases. Spock’s “Wrath of Khan” demise was wonderfully tragic because without care for himself (save the “remember” moment) he saved the crew–his dearest friends from one of their greatest advesaries, and his final moments with Kirk were unforgetable.
“Generations” handling of death is a point of harsh criticism because it was a poor idea from start to finish, and the main plot which triggered the death was about as worthless and devoid of dramatic interest and MEANING as possible–a disaster in dramatic fiction such as Star Trek–most especially wth a character like Kirk.
“My father died of leukemia last december, while I held him. It wasn’t pretty, it still haunts me…and I can’t have it back. That’s life, it hurts, but I respect it and appreciate life so much more…simply because we don’t get a second chance.”
I’m honestly sorry for your loss; I lost an older brother outside of my own home when I was child, and it was as horrible, brutal and pointless as one could ever imagine. By the time of the following morning, he was gone…but that pointless death was the (begrudgingly “accepted”) nature of reality, where dramatic arcs and crescendos are hardly the norm when loved ones pass away.
I think that’s why fiction is so appealing–it displays all sorts of great highs and lows and generates emotion we (in some stories) would never want to live, but we find compelling in any case. Our great fictional film or TV heroes–if they perished–usually exited with some meaning to SOMETHING or SOMEONE. “Generation’s” handling was typical of the late-years Bermanverse’s generally lifeless appraoch to character. It was as though in order to launch TNG as a film series, TPB wanted to kill off the one character required for any true reunion at any time in the future.
Whatever the motives, it was without a doubt, one of the worst major character deaths i’ve ever seen (or read).
Characters–very famous characters can and have returned, such as Spock or Sherlock Holmes. I find it incredible that some of the members here seem to think creative writers–dealing with sci-fi of all genres–cannot create a logical reason why Kirk lives.
.
Would the “favored nations” clause even be in effect with these guys, so long after “their” Trek boat has sailed? I doubt it. Each is probably negotiating on new terms and with little collaboration between the two. This isn’t like the old days.
I can easily understand Shatner’s position. Nimoy takes the part. It’s a big role. It’s a n important part of the story. Shatner is then offered a cameo. He looks at it artistically…and it has little merit to bother with it. So he asks himself. Why does Paramount want me in this? I’ve died already…this role isn’t that pivotal to the story. Then the light bulb goes off. They just want me in it to use my name for promoting the film…they’ll get tons of hype and buzz with a new Trek movie starring Leonard Nimoy as Spock and William Shatner as Kirk. Well he can’t blame them, he understands good PR and good business sense. But his own business sense kicks in and he says, well, sure I’ll drop in for a tiny cameo, but they’re going to have to pay me for being able to use me for advertising. The $$ the studio will probably bring in by being able to advertsie Shatner as James Kirk” is probably a lot more than the salary he would get for a little walk- on.
So Shatner ups his price to reflect not only his acting, but also factoring in what he thinks his name is worth in possitive buzz and publicity. He arrives at a very hight number. The studio squaks, Shatner shruggs…goes back to Boston Legal. Until he is accosted by reporters at which point he tells it like it is.
Who knows if we’ll see him, I hope so. And I think IF his reasoning was anything close to what I described, I don’t blame him a bit for asking for loads of $. He probably won’t get it, but at least he DOES get the reasoning behind the studio wanting him in the picture…if only for a few minutes.
#341. DRE – October 30, 2007
“I have to ask, why was Kirk’s death or Data’s death any less heroic or meaningful than Spock’s death when they all died for the same reason?
Spock died saving the Enterprise and her crew.
Kirk died saving The Next Generation crew and a whole planet of people.
Data died saving the Enterprise and her crew.
They all sacrificed themselves for the greater good, and all knew the risks involved. Just the same as running into a burning building that is about to fall, if you sacrifice yourself and it allows even three people to live, you are an example of a hero.
They were heroes, regardless of how they died. ”
My main problem with Kirk’s death in generations was the lack of ceremony and acknowlegement of his death. He has his final scene, cut to Picard putting his Starfleet pin on the pile of rocks that is supposed to be Kirk’s grave and then walking away. And that’s it. It is never mentioned again. No eulogy by Spock or even Scotty, no deep emotion from Picard (which makes sense, they just met), just a pile of Rocks that Picard doesn’t even mention to Riker.
Data’s death wasn’t as bad as that. The thing that irked my about that was the overwhelming similarity to TWOK, right down to the caching of Data’s memories into B-4. It felt contrived and unoriginal, but at least some of his friends were there to give the scene some emotional context.
Spock’s death scene in TWOK would have been as flat as Kirks in Generations if he had died by himself and been left by a new aquaintance under a pile of rocks on some isolated planet.
Just my $.02
I hope this film is as good as if not better than the TOS show and films..but there is that x-factor, that I am sure the creative staff is looking for in the current cast…the thing that carried the show and films…chemistry..
i take some of the points on here about shatner- im a big fan of the shat.
but i feel let down at the moment. this is what frustrates me about this situation. he would be VERY well paid even if it was for a small cameo part say of 10 mins screen time for example. it would raise his profile that he was starring in a (reported) $150 million dollar movie in a role he made famous all those years ago. far more positive than what is being circulated at present. doing a brief cameo would even interupt his fiming of boston legal.
aditionally (and this might be controversial) doesnt he owe it to the fans to say ‘hey, ive done very well out of this and its largely due to those loyal fans’. it would be a wonderful way of saying ‘thank you’ to those who have loved him and supported him all these years. could he not do it for them?
im really dissapointed but feel we dont know ALL of the story behind this…and im not writing him off just yet. there are always possibilities spock said!!
cheers
greg
United kingdom
Where are people getting the idea that he was offered a cameo + turned it down from?
312. Ivory – October 30, 2007
It’s not a dead issue? Who we speaking of?
I thought someone said that Shatner had no reason to lie?
Then what of this headline?
“Shatner: No ‘Star Trek’ Cameo For Me”
Ivory, you can have 10,000 posts on this site about Shatner, pro and con and you know what? They are all from about the same 30 people or so repeating their rhetoric over and over. It doesn’t make it significant.
This thread and the thread that preceded it are not new news.. it’s same same stuff recycled back through the mainstream media.
#353. nscates,
Thank you for your honest answer. I think you hit it on the head, his death was a lonely one, and I believe that was the point.
Kirk always said he would die alone, and this ending was in keeping with that chilling prediction. I think Picard was being respectful by not telling anyone about what happened on Veridian III, Kirk had already died a hero of the Federation and that was probably the best place to keep it.
I myself really find Generations a grand missed opportunity, it could have been a fine crossover film had Nimoy came early in the project or had Paramount left Berman in control over the TV product and gave Harve Bennett the TNG features. I would gladly sacrifice First Contact (My favorite TNG film) for a string of Bennett controlled Next Gen films.
If you read between the lines it would seem Orci and staff pitched the story to Shatner, then went and wrote the script as they had pitched it….Shatner now says “I don’t do cameos” which would seem to suggest THAT is what he was offered. The Shat should take the cameo and be happy to get THAT……..the ego on this guy is eating away at any goodwill we felt for him as the character of Kirk!!
He’s relegated to T.V. roles these days…..it’s not like feature film parts are coming his way………as a “thank you” to the fans he should make a final appearance and have done with it!! How much money and ego-stroking does one guy need???
359
I think you may be right.
If it is true (a big if) Shatner has no respect for the fans and is only upset with a cameo because he wants one more big pay day from S.T.
I agree with you, Harry, but I feel I need to clarify my feelings on Shatner being in the movie. Personally, I would love to see him in it. My beef with this situation has been his inexplicable whining about not being in it, won’t do cameos, never was offered anything, calling people’s decisions foolish. His behavior seems frustratingly odd and contradictory. If he was not offered a part, how can he turn down a cameo? How can you decline accepting something you were allegedly never offered? What the???
And yes, it would still be cool to see Shatner as Kirk again. But the movie can survive his absence.
Thank you Mr. Orci, and thank all of you who posted your thoughts.
Sometimes it helps to clarify our positions with the experiences we’ve lived, as well as the joy and pain that have molded us.
Trek was part of my life from as far back as I can remember. My very first notebook in grade 1 is covered with horrible drawings of The Enterprise. I still doodle her on my notebooks today….sadly, they’re not much better. :) I remember having a pair of fake pointy ears that I used to force my Dad to wear so I could play Star Trek. He didn’t really like ‘Star Trak’ as he called it, so it was rather fitting that he would be the stoic Mr. Spock, while I ran around the room as Kirk. :) There is a strong connection for me to these characters, to the ideals that Trek presented to me at a very young age. It helped shape the person I am. It means a lot to me that these characters are treated realistically, and respectfully.
I apologize for feeling the need to post something about this, but while I share a love for Shatner and his legendary portrayal of Kirk, Bill clearly has some issues. I think Bill is confused, about his identity and other things. Someone mentioned the shatnerverse, and yeah in those kirk is kirk, and he’s at least 300% more awesome than everyone else. Oddly enough, I didn’t mind (the 1 that I read), because its kirk. More to the point, kirk is a character. I remember shatner being very dissapointed that he was not given the lead role in the TekWar television series, which he had modeled after (who else?) himself. Remember TekWar? The man, though I love him dearly, is a prostitute and a prima donna to boot. He IS awesome, but deeply flawed, and methinks he needs to grow up a little and learn to play with others. If he sucks it up now he might still get that cameo, or that bag of money, or that big picture of himself to hang on the wall, or whatever it is that he seems to so desperately desire. By the way Bill, I always enjoy seeing you on Boston Legal… great stuff.
Just to clarify one key issue….Orci himself said they initially “pitched” something to Shatner. You don’t pitch anything to someone unless you want their involvement in some fashion, otherwise what’s the point? It would seem Shatner was INITIALLY offered some kind of involvement, but has been trying to “up the ante” since that time……..not so much for more money, but for a more substantial part in the film which flies in the face of the storyline already mapped out and approved. The blunt truth is that if the Shat’s waiting for the producers to blink first……he might just be waiting a LONG time! He wants this more than, it appears, they do……..
You know.. somewhere in the 1700 posts since 10/17 (on a hopefully humorous side note, isn’t it curious that number wasn’t 1701) I think two points are being missed.
At the risk of starting yet another long string of posts debating the subject, there are two clear points at hand:
1. Unless I’m grossly mistaken, Shatner himself must have written in ST:V that Kirk knew he would die alone.
2. Shatner had a role in the portrayal of his character’s death in Generations – and it should be duly noted that Kirk died without the presence of Spock and Bones.
In effect, Kirk died alone and ST:V unknowingly and apparently foreshadowed this. The discussion is getting tiresome but for whatever reason I felt compelled to point out the above.
358
Thanks ;-) now I’m wishing I could take back my post because I saw someone else beat me to the point. So many posts, so much to keep track of after all..!
359- “He’s relegated to T.V. roles these days…..it’s not like feature film parts are coming his way………as a “thank you” to the fans he should make a final appearance and have done with it!! How much money and ego-stroking does one guy need??? ”
Harry. Harry. Harry. This is a 76 year old actor. By all rights the man SHOULD be retired like 95% of all the other 76 year old actors out there. Shatner has had his career and it was quite successful. He doesn’t need movies to come his way…or television. But they come to him. And he likes to work and be active just as much as he loves that almighty $. So, you see, it really isn’t much of an insult to say he is “relegated to TV” and that movie parts aren’t coming his way. Movie parts aren’t coming to most of the geriatric acting proffession. That Shatner can prosper, at all, at his age in youth obsessed Hollywood is a tremendous feat in itself. Bravo Bill!
#352 Star Trackie
Hey Star Trackie!
You wrote:
“Would the “favored nations” clause even be in effect with these guys, so long after “their” Trek boat has sailed? I doubt it. Each is probably negotiating on new terms and with little collaboration between the two. This isn’t like the old days.”
I don’t see why their “favored nations” clause wouldn’t still be in effect. We know that it was signed during the original series, and according to bmar, it was still in place about ten years ago. I doubt that it would have been in effect all that time and just expired at some point over the last several years.
Actors don’t have “a contract.” They have *contracts,* generally a new one for every new project.
Actors may have certain clauses that their agents or managers insist upon in their contracts – whether successfully or not depends upon how badly the employer wants them and/or how badly they want the job.
Nimoy and Shatner apparently had good and realistic working relationships throughout the “Star Trek” films. The “favored nations” thing would never have worked were they not willing to be somewhat cooperative with one another and realistic enough to see it as to their mutual advantage.
Nimoy once related a story about one of the Trek films – I don’t remember which, but it may have been Star Trek III – where Shatner was holding out for more money. Nimoy was directing the movie and was heavily involved in preparing it, and he said that he’d go around the studio commiserating with the producers about how “difficult” Shatner was being while secretly being gleeful and encouraging Shatner to hold out because the more Shatner got, the more he got. :lol:
#369 Dennis
Check out my earlier post – #183. It includes the story you’re talking about.
I’m still thinking about this favored nations thing.
It would seem to me, there are about five possibilities:
1) Shatner is in the movie, and the favored nations thing will be honored.
2) Shatner decides to pass on the movie, even though he is offered a part that is similar in size to Nimoy’s. In this case, the clause is not violated.
3) The favored nations thing has expired, or isn’t what I’ve been led to believe it is.
4) Nimoy accepted his offer and failed to include the favored nations clause in his studio contract, in which case Shatner would have a legal case against Nimoy if he isn’t offered a part of similar importance.
5) Nimoy’s contract does include the clause, but Paramount isn’t honoring it, in which case Shatner would have a legal case against them.
Just trying to figure this out….
I find it very hard to believe that the Shat would take Paramount to court, and I think it would be out of the question for Shatner to take Nimoy to court. That one seems impossible.
In response to 359:
I agree with a lot that you said.
360:
I don’t think it is only the $$. If he got in HE WOULD PROBABLY TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WHOLE THING. Can you really see him sitting quietly, happy to observe, on the sidelines? I get the impression from everything I’ve heard about him (and seen first-hand) is that he is a huge control freak and desperately needs the attention.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m a huge fan (love all the series, especially Kirk/Spock/Bones) but his behaviour is really starting to concern me.
I’m a little embarrassed that Shatner doesn’t seem embarrassed by his behaviour. He seems honestly shocked that he wasn’t included. Get over yourself, Bill — or, in your own words — GET A LIFE! If he had let it be known that he would have accepted a cameo (which I think would have been fabulous) maybe they would have included him. However, the way he is behaving probably tipped them off to the fact that he would have tried to take over the whole thing. His ego seems to have grown bigger than the whole franchise. Please Bill, while there is still time — redeem what little dignity you have left and move on!!! I don’t want to see you go out this way.
Some thoughts:
#239 Jon
Hey Jon! I’ve noticed that some people, and I’m not sure that you’re one of them, have criticized Shatner for wanting lots of money. I just want to say that Paramount has made an enormous amount of money off of Star Trek, and specifically off of Shatner and Nimoy. So if Shatner and the studio are playing hardball with each other, it isn’t just a one-sided thing where Shatner is the only one who wants to make money. This is what Shatner says about negotiating for ST:IV:
“I was being ‘difficult,’ at least according to the studio. More specifically, citing the fact that our previous three films had earned the studio well over a quarter of a billion dollars, I was steadfastly refusing to sign on the dotted line for our new film, holding out in an effort to partially make up for two decades’ worth of nonexistent residuals and merchandising revenues. In short, I was trying to get Leonard and me a well-deserved (at least in our opinion) raise.”
#286 4 8 15 16 23 42
You wrote:
“Vulcanista — Not only am I a “Lostie” but Spock is my favorite TOS character. Vulcans rock — Tuvok and T’Pol are the main reasons I watch Voyager and Enterprise, respectively.”
Spock is an excellent character, and I think his approach to life has influenced my own, at least in some ways. But in my opinion, Tuvok and T’Pol just didn’t measure up to Nimoy’s Spock or Lenard’s Sarek. To me, they always seem so irritated and grouchy, as do many of the Enterprise vulcans I’ve seen. Rather than being devoid of emotion, they seem to overflowing with one emotion in particular: annoyance.
Spock, on the other hand, would be on the verge of death, and he would find things “fascinating.” Spock was genuinely curious – he found the universe fascinating, and not irritating. When Bones made a careless mistake and blinded Spock, Spock called it an “equitable trade” and did not berate McCoy for the mistake. Spock never preached the Prime Directive to Kirk, although he did remind Kirk of it. Spock was also a lot more like Data than the other vulcans I’ve seen. He just didn’t understand the things people would do, whereas many of the other vulcans I’ve seen do seem to understand and detest the things people do.
I hope the movie stays true to Spock’s character. He’s not just another vulcan. Hopefully Nimoy can keep them in line.
#289. 4 8 15 16 23 42
You wrote:
“The whole premise of Generations being an occasion to put the two captains together and give Kirk a heroic send-off was a stupid ploy.”
Personally, I think it was a great idea, but horribly executed. The story was stupid, and it would have worked better if the two crews faced off against each other. One thing that bothers me about that movie is that Captain Kirk jumps 60 or so years into the future, and only gets to see a barren planet in that future. Can you possibly imagine a more unsatisfying trip through time? He didn’t even get to see the new Enterprise!!!
#355. Classic trek
You wrote:
“i take some of the points on here about shatner- im a big fan of the shat. but i feel let down at the moment. this is what frustrates me about this situation. he would be VERY well paid even if it was for a small cameo part say of 10 mins screen time for example. it would raise his profile that he was starring in a (reported) $150 million dollar movie in a role he made famous all those years ago. far more positive than what is being circulated at present. doing a brief cameo would even interupt his fiming of boston legal.”
Hi Classic Trek. I don’t think that 10 minutes of screen time is considered a cameo. Christian Slater did a cameo in ST:VI. It was about 15 seconds long. Maybe less.
#361. I AM THX-1138
You state:
“His behavior seems frustratingly odd and contradictory. If he was not offered a part, how can he turn down a cameo? How can you decline accepting something you were allegedly never offered? What the???”
Hi THX. If I understand correctly, Shatner is saying that since the script was written, he has not been offered anything at all. Then, when he was asked if he would be do a cameo (if they make that offer), he has said he’d be reluctant to do anything like that. So I don’t think he is necessarily contradicting himself.
#364. Harry Ballz
Hi Harry Ballz! You wrote:
“Just to clarify one key issue….Orci himself said they initially “pitched” something to Shatner. You don’t pitch anything to someone unless you want their involvement in some fashion, otherwise what’s the point? It would seem Shatner was INITIALLY offered some kind of involvement, but has been trying to “up the ante” since that time……..not so much for more money, but for a more substantial part in the film…”
I’m not sure if Shatner is upping the ante from what was discussed at this original pitch, although maybe he is. It sounds to me like Orci and crew explained to Shatner what they intended on doing, and what his role in it might be. Then, at least according to Shatner, they went and wrote a script that didn’t involve him. If that is the case (and I’m not sure it is), then rather than upping the ante himself, the scriptwriters decreased the ante.
#365 Leonel
Although Kirk did die away from Bones and Spock, he didn’t die alone – he was talking to Picard as he died. However, I never liked that line from ST:V anyway. How the hell would Kirk know any such thing?
Just some thoughts. Hope I didn’t bore anyone to death.
#371. Pragmaticus
Hey.
I’m not saying that any of these things would happen. But if there is some sort of contract or agreement, and it ends up breached, then someone would have to be accountable, I would think.
Anyway, I’m not saying I know what’s going on with that favored nations thing, but I am definitely curious about it.
If it is as rock-solid as has been suggested, then I don’t understand how they’ll justify leaving Shatner out of the picture.
#373, re your response to 286,
Ah! That’s Spock’s human half you’re speaking of, the eternal curiosity.
AFA as Vulcans appearing terminally annoyed, they aren’t really devoid of emotions. They just (allegedly) hide them better than most. Given the emotional makeup of the ancient Vulcans, irritation might be the one emotion that modern Vulcans have the hardest time repressing. Without Surak’s Kir’Shara and the attendant mental disciplines, they’d be certifiably insane, even by human standards.
Either that, or they all need a good dose of laxative. :-)
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
#373 Kirok Fan and #375 The Vulcanista:
Okay, no one beats Spock. True. But I take my Vulcans where I can get them. :-)
Tuvok was mostly annoyed with Neelix, and who can blame him? Sometimes I want to smack Neelix in his big cheeks (the ones on his face; this isn’t getting kinky). I still think Tuvok is well played. He has discipline, but he also has a strong sense of ethics. I love Seven of Nine (I just wish they’d dressed her in something more sensible; the T&A factor is boring and unnecessary on a woman as insightful and gifted as Seven — she’d be just as sexy in a big burlap sack), but often her logic is cold and unfeeling, and I love it when Tuvok coaches her in balancing logic with ethics.
T’Pol and the Vulcans on Enterprise are irritated because they’re just getting to know humans. It makes sense, the humans are like teenagers to them, ignorant but not willing to admit their ignorance. The human “growing pains” element of the show is valid, in my opinion. T’Pol also exhibits a proper balance of logical discipline, intelligence, and moral direction. Actually, Archer does have an excessive “cowboy” mentality that she helps to rein in — obviously a parallel relationship to the Kirk-Spock relationship, though Kirk is better at keeping his own “cowboy” qualities in check.
(4 8 15 16 23 42 gasps as he rereads his own post and realizes what an irredeemable dork he is)
I will bet major quatloos that it all boils down to money. Shatner is a true gamester. But it’s not unworthy to accept a cameo due to the constraints of the script. Sure, I’ll go see the new film without Shatner (don’t like that poll question), but I’d rather have him in it.
378. Jeffrey S. Nelson
” I’ll go see the new film without Shatner (don’t like that poll question), but I’d rather have him in it. ”
I agree
OK, dont bring back shatner, dont bring back kirk. But if I read one more time that he cant be brought back because he died I will puke. This is sci fi people. Yes, Spock died. But so did McCoy (shore leave) scotty (changeling) and chekov… so this he cant be brought back arguement because its disrespectful or unrealistic etc. etc. makes about the least amount of sense possible
One article headline on google news reads “Shatner: I won’t be in new Star Wars prequel.”
Thank goodness for that. The world is not ready for Jedi Master Wi Shat.
It is disappointing, however, not to see him in the new Star Trek prequel. I hope things work out so that Shatner and Nimoy get to appear together one last time. These guys are a great combination, even at conventions, and would do a great at promoting the film together.
Re: the favored nations clause — perhaps it “expired”/annulled when Shatner agreed to kill Kirk off? Just a thought.
Then again, it survived Spock’s “death” — perhaps it was annulled and then reinstated when TSFS was made? If so, would it be reinstated in the case of a resurrection of Kirk? Who knows….
Mr. Shatner (if you are out there) take the cameo if it was offered to you.
Clearly you don’t need the money and it would be a classy way to thank your many long time fans.
The good publicity would only help your career in the long run.
“help your career in the long run”?
What, is he working until he’s 102, or something? He’s already HAD his “long run”!
I was actually upset to hear that Spock was being revived in Star Trek III because I felt it diminished the power of the ending of Star Trek II. But in the end, and being science fiction, it was the right thing to do, and I can’t imagine Star Trek IV or VI without him.
In contrast, Kirk’s death in Generations always felt like it was done just to sweep the TOS legacy under the rug so that Berman & TNG could sieze the reigns of the film franchise. When test audiences reacted poorly to the original ending (shot in back), they just reshot it to kill him a different way (fall under bridge). In both versions Kirk died like a redshirt guest star, buried under some rocks and never spoken of again. Not good dramatic fiction considering this was one of the top fictional characters of the past 100 years.
One day relatively soon Shatner will be gone. It will be a shame if his Star Trek legacy ends without one last mission when he and so many fans want to see it.
Dr. Daystrom – “JJ-5 tie in”
Computer Voice – “JJ-5″
DD – “Why wasn’t the Captain chosen for the new movie?”
bleeps and clicks
CV – “Non-essential personnel”
Cue dramatic music
Spock – “Captain, the JJ-5 makes only logical decisions”
#378. ” I’ll go see the new film without Shatner (don’t like that poll question), but I’d rather have him in it. ”
After thousands of posts, I think it’s safe to say this is how the majority feel. I am excited to see the first showing at midnight Christmas Eve, but Shatner would cinch the deal and make it a truly amazing experience. Not just for me, but for the many, many fans of all ages who grew up loving his portrayal of Captain Kirk.
#385. “One day relatively soon Shatner will be gone. It will be a shame if his Star Trek legacy ends without one last mission when he and so many fans want to see it.”
Very true. It’s really a blessing that both he and Nimoy are so fit for their ages and perfectly capable of performing and we have them around while TOS is experiencing this huge revival 4 decades later. I’m hoping for and expecting a great film, but seeing those 2 together on screen 1 last time would bring tears to many eyes. It would pack an emotional whallop!
385. Gallifrey1983 -
I always felt that the whole Trek 3 thing was a bit cheap. It really did undermine the potency of Trek 2. It was the ‘reset’ that Berman and Braga loved so well. See, Spock isn’t dead…yay!
I was also disappointed that they resurrected The Enterprise too. I followed the DC comics back then, and in the comics Kirk got the Excelsior. They could have given them the Enterprise too, as paramount hadn’t decided on giving them another Enterprise at that time, but they took the more difficult route and gave them the excelsior. After a time, it felt just as noble a ship as The Enterprise.
The films seemed to play it far too safe, and didn’t really try to make the audience uncomfortable with the situation….The Motion Picture and Trek 2 being the exception. After that, I felt the characters were treated more like a commodity than human beings.
There are so many good reasons ‘not’ to resurrect Kirk from the dead, that I can’t seriously imagine doing it just to ‘please the fans’. The story is far more important in this case. The needs of the story, outweigh the needs of the fans, or the Shat.
I wonder: if the writers strike happens and there has been no deal made with Shatner yet, how can he still be considered or wanted for the movie by the producers? Is there a draft of the script that includes him?
If they still want Shatner and find a way to fit him into the movie, who will pen the new version of the script?
Hey, you guys should check out a movie called Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country!
Rumor has it that it’s the last movie for the original crew, geared to be a dignified salute and send off for them!
Kind of a “see them all together one last time” kind of film!
#389 … I will! :)
390
The problem is they messed up Generations with STVI
# 389
I’d bet the house that there is a draft of the script with Shatner in it.
If Shatner is being a tool about only having a cameo (we don’t know he has been asked to cameo) even I would say the hell with him.
I would settle with the knowledge that Kirk survived the nexus. They don’t really need Shatner for that.
How about Chris Pine made to look like the old Kirk?
It’s not about Shatner + his ego. It’s about giving the character a good ending.
Let’s hope the writers at least offered (or will still offer) him a role
Guess we’re at loggerheads with this issue. We’re only saying the same things (or paraphrrases) over and over to each other.
Maybe that’s what Shatner is doing: getting all the fans who are at opposing viewpoints all tired out from fighting, and finally reunite in one common goal: the love of Star Trek!
“After thousands of posts, I think it’s safe to say this is how the majority feel.”
And, after 246 votes, it shows how the true majority feel. 78% of that say he’s not a requirement for people to go see the movie.
#394 The original quote was, ” I’ll go see the new film without Shatner (don’t like that poll question), but I’d rather have him in it. ”
You’re right, he’s not a “requirement” for the movie. But it is also true that more people would like to see him than not. So we’re in agreement here. Don’t push it. :)
34. Smitty – October 29, 2007
Oh Lord!
Bill let it go.
Again you were not at the birth of Star Trek, that would be Nimoy.
Sorry my man, But Boston Legal and Priceline.com are still there for ya.
To quote what you said nearly 21 years ago, “Get a life!”
Well said, Smitty! LOL Initially, I was disappointed that Shatner would not be in it, but his arrogant comments made me feel differently now. I think its great that the TOS cast are giving their blessings to the new TOS cast because it shows encouragement and maturity. I just wish that Shatner would show the same feelings as well because he and the original TOS cast had a fantastic run and now the time has come to pass the baton. Funny, he didn’t have a problem with killing off Kirk in Generations and the three TNG movies that were made without him, so why is he making a fuss about it now? It is not logical. ;)
The perfect Shatner cameo–
Voice Over—
“Space.
the Final Frontier…”
#396 “I think its great that the TOS cast are giving their blessings to the new TOS cast because it shows encouragement and maturity. I just wish that Shatner would show the same feelings”
Facts, people. Let’s stick to the facts. Shatner has said good things about both Pine and Abrams on several occasions. Heck, he uses the adjectives, “knowledgeable and wonderful” to describe the new team in this article we are discussing!
Actually, the only TOS actor I haven’t seen endorse his replacement, even when he was asked about him, was Walter Koenig. He seemed annoyed.
So far I’ve ignored the posts that claim that Shatner was not involved in the birth of Star Trek. But the latest one (#396) has finally tempted me to get my two cents in.
Some (like #396) have claimed that Nimoy was involved in the birth of Star Trek, but not Shatner. Others have made the claim that Hunter was at the birth of Star Trek, but not Shatner.
I find this very silly. When Star Trek premiered on television, Shatner was in it. If a TV show can be said to have a “birth,” it would certainly be it’s TV premiere. Therefore, Shatner certainly was there at its birth.
If we are going to continue to use metaphorical language like “birth,” then I think we should all agree that “The Cage” was not the birth of Star Trek, but rather, Star Trek’s aborted fetus.
As for the “conception” of the aborted fetus and the conception of the Star Trek that was brought to term, Shatner, Nimoy, and Hunter were all absent. That was Roddenberry’s doing.
On a related note, some have said that Kirk is not Shatner’s identity, and that Kirk was created by Roddenberry. I think that when Roddenberry wrote the Kirk part, it was only a shell of a character, and Shatner certainly was involved in creating the character, just as Nimoy helped create the Spock character. Nimoy is getting the opportunity to work with Quinto and the team to recreate Spock, so it’s not crazy that Shatner would like the same opportunity.
This is just too funny. 400 posts all dissecting a paragraph from Shatner, who I still say didn’t say anything in that quote that was arrogant or disrespectful of anyone.
Also, to say that Kirk is a character only, and we all love Kirk the character, is totally inaccurate. If you said that about a character in a book, that is one thing. Kirk is a character almost completely (at least officially) tied to William Shatner. To say that Orci and Kurtzman simply grafted the character from reading scripts or Trek novels would be absurd. That’s not saying you can’t cast another actor, but to ignore Shatner’s legend as part of the role is not right.
I say again, I think this movie needs William Shatner to be there with Nimoy. Nimoy is not too fleet of foot, and if anything, he needs Shatner there to take the bumps.
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it, but it is being reported that Shatner will be in the new movie.
http://www.switched.com/2007/10/19/william-shatner-to-appear-in-next-star-trek-movie/
401-
That report, and the subsequent link are older than the most recent comments from Shatner. Hmmmm….
#399
Great post – wonderful thoughts. Thank you for speaking out for the needs of the chosen few.
#400
- That’s not saying you can’t cast another actor, but to ignore Shatner’s legend as part of the role is not right. –
Exactly – by ignoring this relation you set off to erase the archetypal relevance of the character, you create a gap between what is established and what is still to be shown. There is neither logic nor spirit in such an enterprise.
#399. Kirok Fan
I think that you have some very good points there.
I’ve said all along that I don’t want Shatner shoved in there at the expense of the story, “just to please the fans”, but I DO think that it might be a wasted opportunity not to allow him and Chris Pine to work together to help round out the inner workings of the character.
However, with filiming starting a week from today, there would appear to be very little time to make that happen, if we are to take things at their face value when Shatner says he’s not involved in any way at the moment.
I still want Bill in the movie…..so there!
Agreed #400,
“to ignore Shatner’s legend as part of the role is not right”
So what the hell is going on then?
You producers need to give Shat & the fans some answers!
Just out of respect to the people who we’re involved before you.
Just stick to crapping on the Transformers lore.
So frustrated, I can’t even spell my own name now!
My two sense (like it really matters in the hundreds of posts already put forth). WI’m not qute so sure why it matters that Shatner have a art in the film. I don’t want the filn to bend over backwards to put him in. I mean look at generations. It basicly bent over backwards to find a way to fit the two crews together, and look what happened. Now i’m not saying it coudn;t work and be briliant. But lay it off a bit.
And as for a cameo, why not Shanter? unless your schedule is too busy to consider such a small part, it seems slightly insulting to demand a large part.
377
LOL!! I know, I know! I felt the same way after my post.
I suppose as long as we don’t go spouting off our impressive knowledge of all things Trek at cocktail parties and other social situations where most people don’t give a Klingon’s ass about Trek, we’re okay. :-D
That’s why I love this site; I can safely let my inner geek out to play, play, play!
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
Whilst Abrams is silent this Shatner thing is all one sided and getting boring… and there’s no cryptic hope from Mr Orci this time round.
So… Any update on Fraternity Escorts?
a few comments:
I’m sure the favored nations clause was part of thier old contract. In light of the fact they’ve not done a paramount film in the last decade or more, a new contract would probably have to be drawn up and who knows if the suits at paramount would go for that today.
To keep Kirk from the nexus and not disrupt the TNG timeline is easy. Destroy the Nexus in the past TOS era – even as an accident. No Nexus, No Soran, No dead Kirk, No Generations!
Wouldn’t it be cool if the new movie took after City on the edge of forever… and whatever the romulan plot is that changes the timeline causes Kirk to be ALIVE for the whole movie?… knowing that setting the timeline straight would result in his demise…. and he and spock work to set it right , get a nice teary-eyed “Goodbye my friend”. and fix thing back to normal….that would be a heroic death!
hi kiok fan post #373
thanks for your reply – your the first to do so. i was wondering if my posts were being seen!!
crikey – id like to see shatner in it for longer that the christian slater cameo! but at present id take anything as long as hes is in it somewhere.
i long to click onto to this website and see the headline ’shatner signs for star trek movie’. please abrahams make it happen – even if it is only a cameo.
greg
united kingdom
Oh, sorry about that Classic trek. I guess my reply to what you said about what I said (?!) would be:
Then what do you suppose they said (??!!??) at the initial meeting? Nice weather we’re having? Boxers or briefs? Mary Ann or Ginger?
Nah, I think they made him an offer for a part, be it substantial or cameo and he, more than likely, wanted more and negotiations stalled. Shatner’s next form of negotiating was to make like he was never included in any discussions. Publicly. And now we, as fans, are left to bicker pointlessly about the aftermath.
THX1138 #413
hi
what ever was said (if anything) between them, i do feel that shatner could/should find it in himself to be in this movie for the fans sake.
to do a small part would be so positive for him and us …heres my reasoning.
* he would be well paid for it.
* a chance to take part in a MAJOR new $150 million dollar movie
* international recognition reprising a role he is famous the world over for
* would not impact on his other career projects ie bosten legal
* a chance to work once more with his old pal nimoy
* a chance to properly hand over the baton to the new captain kirk chris pine
* an opportunity to work with pine to ensure chris has the best tuition he could possibly have in undertaking the role.
* positive widespread publicity again
* public appearances (ker-ching!!)in promoting the new film.
shatner must know the fans want him in it.. to me it doesnt make sense having read the positives above why he doesnt do it (assuming he’s been asked!).
im still open about this because i think there will be a few twists and turns yet. i still think he might be in it…. there are always possibilities spock said………..
cheers
greg
united kingdom
396. Julian – October 31, 2007
“Again you were not at the birth of Star Trek, that would be Nimoy.”
Shatner as Kirk was one of the central reasons the 2nd pilot sold the series to NBC, not Nimoy. NBC still had issues with his “demonic” appearance as the series aired, but without Shatner’s particular performance as Kirk in that 2nd pilot, it is a bit more than a guess that there would be no Star Trek.
Please just put Shatner in the film and make everyone happy. Then we can actually talk about a new Star Trek film that has great potential.
411 – Dave, it wouldn’t be any more paradoxical time wise than First Contact was. On the other hand, sadly I think the TNG era is over and done with for Star Trek, so it probably wouldn’t matter. Regardless, there’s still the possibility that Abrams purposely does something in order to be able to establish his own off-shoot of continuity. If so, and he survives the subsequent “Canon” fodder, then whatever they do with Shatner wouldn’t really make a difference.
I find it more than a little ironic that Shatner is, in effect, a “loose cannon” in regard to established “canon”, so to speak………I’m just sayin’……..
Shatner wants to be in this movie, and who can blame him. No actor wants to go out with a whimper, and that is what happened to him in GENERATIONS. Shatner’s Kirk should go out with a Bang! Bringing him back for a final farewell would be fantastic, and a smart business move for Paramount.
http://WWW.WEWANTKIRK.COM
Has anybody seen this onlne petition?
#420
Now I have (and to everyone’s utter surprise, I’ve just signed it;-) – thanks!
#420
Now I have (and to everybody’s utter surprise I’ve just signed it;-) – thanks!
Uups, sorry – didn’t mean to get that excited…
292
CMDR.,
Very funny, but no, nothing like that. One simple line told to Spock before he goes back in time to save young Kirk would do the trick.
Im no writer, and Orci could smoke anything I come up with, but something simple like this would do:
*Before Spock leaves for the past*
Actor: Spock, how many times do you need to bring Captain Kirk back from the dead, wasnt once enough?
And thats it. We know that Spock never brought Kirk back from the dead before, and that line implies that it DID happen. For me, that would be all I needed to know. Kirk didnt die in Generations, and his terrible, stupid, pointless, moronic death is erased with ONE LINE. No shatner needed.
Thats all im trying to say…. you can easily erase the stupid death without Shatner. Not only will I feel better watching old TOS eps., but when I watch new Kirk I will KNOW he didnt die THAT way!
Either way, I will be there xmas 2008… counting the days… KICK A** ORCI!!!!
And let me just say this, if Shatner was offered a cameo, and if that cameo made it so Kirk wasnt dead in generations, and he refused because he wanted a bigger part or more money.. I will lose ALLLLLL respect for Shatner. The guy killed Kirk. It was his poor choice. Most fans hated it, and here at an old age he is given a chance to bring kirk back and make the fans happy, and he uses that position to lobby for more cash??? are you freakin kiddin me???
Now we dont know what happened, but if that DID happen, and that story came out- Shatner will look like a complete a**. I hope he understands that JJ and co. are holding all the cards and he owes it to us fans to take the small role and bring back kirk… i HOPE that wasnt the case
#425 I’m a massive fan of Shatner’s; but I would be forced to agree with you. If there was a “cameo” appearance that would change Kirk’s fate from his death in Generations and he refused based on ego… He would lose respect from a life long fan.
I’m sure he said something at the meeting that his role would have to be “significant” last year.
There could be nothing more significant than the return of Kirk from his demise in Generations whether thats 30 seconds, 5 minutes or an hour and half. His appearance would be symbollic and significant enough, that length has no meaning.
And if that’s what they have planned and he says no. I am in total agreement.
425- Please don’t make the mistake that Shatner cares, for one minute, whether or not you or any other fan “respects” him. He’s been dealing with and dsimissing these types of attitudes for 30 years.
I don’t suspect he would lose a lot of sleep over it.
I don’t know if anyone already pointed this out, but Nimoy apparently isn’t needed on the set until December, so there is plenty of time to work something out with Shatner.
#427 Never did. The point would be my significant shift in my opinion of him; not vice versa. Shatner’s got a huge ego; but so far I have found that ego to be entertaining. A lot of the his later career has been spent poking fun at himself.
Ivory #420
thank you so much for posting that william shatner petition link. i have signed it and have circulated it with all my friends family work colleagues and so on. great to have one place to register my support for the shat.
great stuff.
thanks again
greg
united kingdom
Would be great if the link to the petition would be posted on the news frontpage ;)
427- I respect and love Shatner for his work on Trek, I love and admire the character of James Kirk probably more then any other fictional character in history.
That being said, if Shatner is rude to his fans, all about himself, etc., well, I could care less. My problem with him, is IFFF he was offered a cameo role that would have made it so that the CHARACTER of Kirk didnt die that terrible death- which he agreed to- then I would lose respect for him. I dont care what he thinks of me, or his fans, but anyone who could create such an iconic character and then show to have such little respect for that character- which I have come to love- well, to be quite honest, F him- sorry anthony.
Now we dont know what happened behind the scenes so the jury is still out. I am fond of Shatner and think of him as the Hulk Hogan of Star Trek- sounds silly I know, but the similarities are endless:
1. Both are credited with building their particular franchise (Star Trek, WWF)
2. Fans seem to either love them, or hate them
3. The fans that love them, love them for the same reasons (He started it all, put in great performances, grew up watching them, nostalgia, etc.)
4. The fans that hate them, hate them for the same reasons (They are said to be greedy, only out for themself, manipulative, money hungry, etc.)
Sounds silly, but as a big wrestling fan, I see and have seen the SAME things said on wrestling boards and chats about Hogan. Seemed like this thread has died, so I just thought id offer that observation :)
Also, to whoever is reading this, I have a general Trek question. I am a big fan of TOS, own all the movies and seasons. I am a moderate fan of TNG and plan on getting the entire series. That being said, for whatever reason, when DS9 aired I never watched it. I have also never seen any eps. of voyager or enterprise… my question: Would a major TOS and moderate TNG fan enjoy those shows? From reading these boards it would see I might like DS9 but probably hate voyager and enterprise.
Sound about right?
432: “my question: Would a major TOS and moderate TNG fan enjoy those shows? From reading these boards it would see I might like DS9 but probably hate voyager and enterprise.
Sound about right? ”
Only you can decide by watching them for yourself.
I’m in the minority in that I enjoyed most but not all of Enterprise. Hated DS9 and Voyager.
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
Hope that with the writers’ strike looming, they have something scripted for Shatner just in case things work out for him to appear in the film.
This strike could outlast shooting, causing complications even if an agreement with Shatner is reached.
totally agree with post #434
they need to have something in place if the shat is to appear. how aweful would it be if shat and abrahams both wanted an appearance only to be scuppered by this strike. it would be trafic. sort it now before this strike starts
cheers
greg
united kingdom
Wouldn’t it be a shame if Shatner shows up at the last week of shooting, signed contract in hand, only to be told “I’m sorry sir, our writing staff won’t be reinstalled until next Tuesday.”
If we get to see Shatner and Nimoy together one last time, they will not regret including the Shat when the box office receipts start rolling in!
dude, you’re too old to play a young kirk! we love ya but come on. you got to be in Generations, isn’t that enough?
now, if they didn’t kill you off in Generations, I’d love to see you in another trek film. i just don’t see how it could be though. you’re old now. you’d have to be in a film that took place post- Generations. And since you died in that one, its not possible! :(
[...] We’ve been hearing for a while now that Leonard Nimoy has scored a short cameo in J.J. Abrams’ new Star Trek film, while William Shatner has not… an arrangement that Shatner is none too pleased about. It is a bit unclear whether or not Shatner had actually been approached to make an appearance as Captain Kirk in the flick, but he has been vocal about his disapproval, saying that he would be “reluctant to do something that had so little value as to be a cameo”, and that the choice to leave him out of a major role is a “foolish business decision on their part”. Well, now he’s going to be twice as pissed because it appears that George Takei will be reprising his role as Sulu in the film as well. According to Starburst magazine, Takei was asked to appear in a flash-forward scene involving his character and Spock. [...]
Its a movie, not a religion or lifestyle. Please move out of your parents basement and get a life.
Shats stoopid if he takes this other movie.. Does he want to be the american pie dad doing 90 straight to DVD spin offs?? naw, not a good move