Moore: No Trek-like Films For BSG - But Yes For TV Prequel March 18, 2008
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Sci-Fi, TNG , trackback
Today brings lots of news on the future of Trek vet Ron Moore’s Battlestar Galactica franchise. The BSG co-creator tells The Hollywood Reporter that he doesn’t expect the show to follow in the footsteps of Trek to the big screen. However, the show will be finally getting the TV prequel announced two years, ago as Sci-Fi have given the greenlight fo the pilot of Moore’s Caprica.
No BSG movies…Trek movies show reason why
Ron Moore, who co-wrote the first two TNG films (Generations and First Contact) tells THR that his experience shows that Trek films lost something when they went to the big screen. Moore tells THR that BSG “works best as an ensemble TV drama” and he fears that on the big screen it would be a “different animal.” From the article:
Moore said he’s been that route with “Star Trek” and found that the movies become focused on one or two characters with the rest of the show’s characters mostly fading into the background. He said the “Next Generation” movies ended up focusing on Captain Jean-Luc Picard and Commander Data. The others, Moore said, did “one scene for their character and the rest of the time they were essentially support to Patrick (Stewart) and Brent (Spiner).”
Of course Moore has a point. One only needs to look at a the movie posters to see the Spiner/Stewart focus for the TNG films. But then again that is no different than the Shatner/Nimoy focus of the previous TOS films.
Picard and Data…where is everyone else?
Caprica is a go
Battlestar Galactica may not follow in the footsteps of Trek to the big screen, but it will follow in the footsteps of getting a prequel. Announced two years ago, Caprica has finally got the go ahead from the Sci-Fi Channel. According to The Hollywood Reporter, a backdoor pilot will begin production this Spring. The series is based 50 years before the events of Battlestar Galactica and before the first Cylon War. Here is a description from the original announcement two years ago:
Caprica would take place more than half a century before the events that play out in Battlestar Galactica. The people of the Twelve Colonies are at peace and living in a society not unlike our own, but where high technology has changed the lives of virtually everyone for the better.
But a startling breakthrough in robotics is about to occur, one that will bring to life the age-old dream of marrying artificial intelligence with a mechanical body to create the first living robot: a Cylon. Following the lives of two families, the Graystones and the Adamas (the family of William Adama, who will one day become the commander of the Battlestar Galactica), Caprica will weave together corporate intrigue, techno-action and sexual politics into television’s first science fiction family saga.
BSG v Trek recognition
Moore also talked to the LA Times about the recognition Battlestar Galactica has recieved and again drew a parallel with Trek:
I had been at ‘Star Trek’ for 10 years, and Patrick Stewart never even got a nomination for his work. You just get used to the idea that you’ll be ignored because of the genre. But this series cut hard against science-fiction cliches. It was a character drama piece, not escapism, that tackled complicated matters and challenged the audience to do more than just come along for the ride.
Battlestar was created by writers…and they have a plan
Before the BSG universe goes backward it still has to move to its inevitable end. The final season for Battlestar starts in the first week of April…and it would appear that, unlike Trek, this is really the end. Moore tells the LA Times they are not keeping the door open and the series will come to a definitive end, saying “the premise was that they were looking for Earth, and we had to pay that off.” However Moore tells THR they will not necessarily time up all the loose end and that “some would be ambiguous by design.”
More Moore at The Hollywood Reporter and The LA Times
Battlestar Season 4 is coming…starting April 4…here is a new promo:
Battlestar Season 3 on DVD out now
Battlestar Galactica - Season Three
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Comments»
All these initials BSG, TOS, TNG, DS9…………oooooh!
How could Stewart not get recorgnition for his work on trek, that is absurd. His work on trek was not only noteworthy but exceptional. He brought a such a level of intensity and sophistication and execellance the role he played How could snub him? That is not one bit fair! I never knew any of this, now I think I understand some of the issues that he has with not only next generation but with fandom as well.
Ron Moore is correct BSG would not work well on the big screen becasue it would be a totally different animal and it wouldn’t really be galactica. With regard to the ending of the series I hope that he doesn’t do a Soprano like ending because that would be a disappointment .
SG1, SGA, VOY, ENT, NCIS, CSI, FBI, CIA, NSA, IRS
To name a few known abbreviations :P
I am exicted about the new season.
Not too sure about the pre-quel though, unless we get to see the war.
Normally, I just roll my eyes at mention of a remake or continuation of a remake, but if this news keeps Moore too busy from remaking Star Trek into something extremely grim and depressing like his interpretation of BSG then this is good news. Let him go nuts with BSG and Caprica if he wants stories where everyone is a jerk and life sucks. Leave Trek alone.
I’ve heard rumors (unsubstantiated) that Caprica will follow the adventures of a group of happy bunnies on their quest for a rainbow made entirely of gumdrops. They’re constantly thwarted in this quest, however, by a maurading pack of pastel-colored teddybears who continually waylay them, tickle them, and give them hugs.
A lot of TLAs here ;-)
Gosh Matt. So wonderful to have your enlightening comments.
BSG is a FANTASTIC TV show. Sometimes everything in life isn’t peaches and cream, particularly when the robots that your society has created have turned against you and have all but wiped out civilization. Life just might suck. Thank goodness Ron Moore has produced a show that isn’t a carbon copy of Star Trek. We already have that show. It’s called ” Star Trek”. All those people who have heaped praise and accollades upon the new BSG probably don’t know anything. Good thing we have Matt to set us straight.
Caprica sounds like it will be a great show too. I am so glad that it has been given the go-ahead. TV needs more BSG’s and less Knight Riders.
As much as I really respect Ron Moore, I do agree that BSG is rather dark indeed. It’s quite depressing to watch at times, I’m afraid, and, yes, I acknowledege that this is perhaps because Moore wants to show us stuff that we, as sci-fi people in the Trek tradition, may really need to see but do so too rarely. Moore’s particular take on fiction was evident even during DS9, which was accused during its run of turning Trek’s optimism on its head. Given that BSG does what it does so well, and given that DS9 has given us so many of Trek’s most sophisticated episodes, I am unable to really complain, except….
Except, I guess, that I really would like to be optimistic rather than realistic, strictly speaking. I guess I would prefer my Trek the Roddenberry way, in the final analysis. And by that I mean either the pre-utopian 1960’s Roddenberry OR the more politically correct 1980’s Roddenberry. Either of these approaches is just a tad more appealing than what we see in BSG, which — despite all its many fine features — seems to me to be a virtually uninterrupted cascade of unrelenting descents into desperation.
This is hardly a new debate, however, and I don’t want to rehash it. Much of what Moore says or implies — that serious fiction cannot be as optimistic as a lot of pre-DS9 Trek seems to be — strikes a note of truth and can hardly be denied. But I cannot help thinking that there must be a third way between the humanistic optimism of Classic Trek and the vaunted realism of more depressing but supposedly more realistic approaches to fiction.
As far as a BSG movie is concerned, I tend to think that the talents of those involved could surely make an ensemble movie work; the question, it seems to me, is whether such a movie could “make it” commercially in Hollywood, and this is where the wisdom of Moore’s words may be most apparent.
I don’t mind a little darkness, I liked DS9 just fine.
BSG, however, is just too much.
DS9, at least, lightened up a bit every now and then.
1. Harry Ballz - March 18, 2008
All these initials BSG, TOS, TNG, DS9…………oooooh!
Yes, these people must have worked in public schools or the military.
Well, Andy, that’s OK with me…
#9: I agree with most of what your post, except for one point of terminology: I describe Star Trek as optimistic/hopeful, BSG as pessimistic/cynical. I see the shows as being pretty much equidistant from the center line …
I’m not sure I can think of _any_ SF TV series I’d ever describe as “realistic” (not talking about physics, of course, but rather human behavior) for more than a few episodes at a stretch. I think Babylon 5 came pretty close in 2nd Season, but then drifted toward an undulating ribbon dipping in and out of optimism and pessimism as the show became more symbolic. But in 2nd Season I think B5 hit respectably close to the balance of delights and horrors that is real interaction between both groups and individuals.
Which isn’t to say I think 2nd Season B5 was “better” for it; I don’t conflate realism (or optimism, or pessimism) with quality, one way or another. It can all be exciting, thought-provoking, and emotionally solid.
10, I concur. DS9 was great. Part of what was great about it was Moore’s willingness to interact with fans. I think that “Ask RDM,” in which Moore took questions about DS9 posed by AOL subscribers on a weekly basis, even as the series was being produced, stands as one of the high water marks of franchise-fan relationships, along with JMS’s Internet-based Q&A’s about B5 (Babylon 5). I think that those of us who were active back then were very appreciative of both of these efforts because we came to see how deeply each of these creative forces cared about their work and how it was perceived by their audiences. I think that a similar spirit lives on in the interaction we see today between the producers of this upcoming Trek movie and the readers here.
I’ve heard that Moore continues a similar tradition with BSG, though I’ve not personally participated in these discussions. This latest news about his upcoming project is intriguing indeed and I certainly hope he maintains a strong and mutually beneficial communicative link with his fans in regard to Caprica as well.
Sort of OT but relevant….
Is Trek best suited for TV or film?
Huh?
How can anyone say one or the other? Each has their pluses and their minuses. Add the obvious 3rd category- ie, Don’t know or Don’t care….. all Trek can be good Trek.
Another poll that makes me weep.
I like BSG in large doses, it’s one drug that you can’t OD on.
I’m excited about caprica. I would love to see a show that used sci fi ideas without sci fi conventions, even though I do love the effects shots, which are so tired on other shows(I think). I know that gene made the decision to make all the aliens human in appearance, and that to a large degree most star trek aliens are human in their philosophy and behaviour. It seems to me that if star trek is ultimately about people anyway, it’s more effective to have humans instead of poorly characterized aliens. I think it’s funny that people think that bsg is dark, given how many civilizations I saw slaughtered while watching star trek, though the effect was often diminished by scenarios that were too fantastical and ultimately unrelatable. Character work adds a lot and star trek is often too… Stiff… Like the embarassing way it handles sex, like we’re twelve.
I hate to combine those two because you get BS GOD which isn’t acceptable on a GOOD day…………
Vaguely on-topic.
I recently heard through the grapevine that far and away my favorite season of nuBSG, Season 3, was in fact critically panned and widely reviled. Is that true? It seemed to me that the show finally hit its stride when it started running tight, well-written episodic stories set within the overall arc as opposed to the overly-arc-y preceding years.
Am I right? Or insane?
Though ambivalent for a long time about Galactica, I think RDM is the bee’s knees, and plus he looks like Jesus (and, eerily, Gaius Baltar). Looking forward to Caprica.
As much faith as I have in Ron Moore and company, I’m not too hot on this prequel idea. Then again I never liked Battlestar Galactica unitl Ron Moore and David Eick came around.
#6 LOL thank you :)
#18
I also think the complaints about Season 3 were unjustified. While it isn’t my favorite (Season 2 wins for me), I think Season 3 contained great character moments that we’d have otherwise missed in ‘arc-y’ previous seasons.
For example, everyone I know hates ‘Unfinished Business’ (the boxing episode) but it’s actually one of my favorites because I think it has some great interplay between the characters, to the point that you really feel the tension, the burdens that these characters are carrying on their shoulders. You truly feel for them, and I think that’s the mark of any well-written show.
So..we’ll get Battlestar Galactica: Dynasty (a.k.a. Caprica). :P
#18: I found season 3 exhausting but impressively intense. I think that’s the most honest description I can give :) It has me looking forward to S4 with a blend of excitement and dread.
I had a different take on the “episodic,” though … I found that, for my own tastes, S3 felt even more like a single piece hacked up into hours, mainly because the tone of the episodes was less variable (owing, perhaps inevitably, to where the story went).
I do know some other BSG fans that bailed entirely in S3. I didn’t (heck, even if I felt like doing so, my wife would never let us), but I know some that did.
I don’t know about the Caprica … prequels are WAY to overused and overrated IMO.
But Battlestar Galactica is just so much better than any Star Trek series or movies so far. Not happy to say, but Star Trek is just cool to watch because we knew it for so long and stuff. But from a neutral POV, they don’t stand a chance against BSG, or some other modern series like Lost or Heroes. I just hope Trek can finally make the jump to a competitive level with the new movie.
#24 “But from a neutral POV, [Trek] don’t stand a chance against BSG, or some other modern series like Lost or Heroes”
I have a lot of (not Trekker) friends that like both Trek and BSG. You may be right but Star Trek has to avoid the dark side of realism, war and heavy drama. It would simply not be Trek anymore.
I think Battlestar Galactica is the smartest show on TV. Period. (Not that I’ve seen everything mind you), but it has a textured and nuanced style that accurately reflects the conundrums of our lives today.
That said, I have been a Trek fan since the dry, desert-like ’70s when all there was was syndication. I love Star Trek and it needs to respect it optimistic view of the future. I would be as angry to see Trek reflect a dystopic Battlestar or even Babylon 5-style as I was happy to indulge in both shows. It sounds like JJ will keep that spirit intact and for that I send my blessings. If Trek reboots as a gritty BSG/B5 style drama or turns into a boom, boom, bang, bang shoot-em-up space opera a la Star Wars I hope it dies a quick death (to agree with Ron Moore a bit more I think the last TNG Treks went a bit too much down the latter route–practically all of the Treks ended with Picard fighting mano a mano with the villain de jure. Predictable. Boring. And slightly out of character. Of course, all of this came about because of the Hollywood desire to have a Die Hard, Rambo hero that could pack Non-Trekkies’ butts in the seats. Here is hoping JJ respects us more).
I tried watching BSG… Frankly I thought it was terrible. I kept watching it but it was just never really beleivable; the characters just never really seemed like real people. When I finally stopped watching in the middle of an episode (”act of contrition” I think it was called) from boredom and frustration that this show was not all it had been cracked up to be, I realised I didn’t really care what happened to all the people in the show. They all could have died and it wouldn’t have meant anything to me.
I really just don’t see how the show is so good in peoples eyes… Sure some of the plot lines were clever, but the plots of many other unwatchable things have been too…..
BTW, I H8 abbreviations 2, despite my use of them. When did everything become TWERGH 4 and SMP: LEES II. Yuk, we need a second dictionary just for the f’ng abbreviations sometimes.
Oh, and there must be a lot of Battlestar Galactica (I’ll refrain from the abbreviation) fans who are also Star Trek fans here, otherwise why post this note on the Star Trek site? (Despite the fact that the deceased official Star Trek site had the annoying habit of reporting about anyone remotely related to Trek: Bob Johnson who picked his nose as an extra in The Omega Glory has been cast as a nosepicker in the blockbuster Rambo XVIII due to premiere next month–sort of like the sad sacks from my nearly home state of Minnesota. There is a Minnesota connection to the Barack Obama phenomenon, once he had a slice of pizza at Pizza Luce and said it was good! Live film at 10 p.m.)
. . . and Star Trek would probably be better as TV than film. Star Trek has always been idea-driven (at its best) with action-adventure thrown in for good measure. Star Trek always has this desire to be a crossover hit at the movies (probably after the success of IV along those lines). The pressure often leads to bad choices: focusing on the action-adventure to the diminishing of the bigger ideas that Star Trek is all about.
I’d love to see JJ, if he does good, take this on as a series and forget the movies. But if it does become an epic blockbuster I’m sure Paramount will go the route of the big, movie dough.
Okay, I’ve got bloody work to do. Enough pontificating.
In response to the comparisons between ST and BSG:
I don’t know about everyone else but I first watch something to be entertained. I also want something that will challenge me to think about something in the real world after the entertainment has worn off. Thus, I choose to watch primarily sci-fi oriented films/shows since they can do this best (in my opinion versus endless incarnations of CSI and the like).
ST and BSG both do the above for me from different perspectives. Sometimes I want to be reminded of the optimistic opportunities we have in our future while other times I need to be reminded of a more pessimiistic direction things could take if we fail to act today.
Both perspectives can be very “realistic” in their portrayals of the future but too much saccharine or too much castor oil will make one sick after a while so a balance is always good and necessary for a healthy life.
As I said, I want to be entertained but I also want to walk away thinking about something that may cause me to think or act differently about bettering my little corner of the cosmos–I think ST and BSG each help me do this.
#6, I actually watch that! I don’t get into BSG at all… But Trek, Doctor Who and even Smallville, (all which I love) I’d think would welcome a funny, action-packed tale of bears vs bunnies! Throw in the, what, two hotties from BSG and it’s gold! And all the BS about Stewart not getting the respect he deserves is criminal! I love the TNG crew, but TV and film really are two different animals… You’d never see a Geordi/Crusher piece. But then again, STIV:TVH was a well-ballanced ensemble film…
Must have BSG…….. NOW!!!!
The challenge of BSG is to show some of us that its depressing aspects are justified. I think that many of us are impressed with BSG because it’s so different from Trek and presents so many twists and turns — if it does that, and if Trek is “too optimistic,” then it MUST be good, right?
I’d like to see someone parse the existential themes that are often so subtly presented in BSG. I’d like to see a reference work that drills down beyond the ever-present paranoia and sadness and desperation of a human tribe fighting its own that tells us how BSG advances the philosophic conversation that much of serious SF — including Trek — actually does cover and develop. (There are entire books about the philosophy of Trek and dissertations have been written about many of its ever-present themes.)
When I think of BSG, I think increasingly of the movie, Artificial Intelligence, whose melancholy nature belies similarly profound and largely unpopular existential themes about what it means to be human in an age of machine intelligence. Just as AI told us things about us that we didn’t necessarily want to see, so, too, does BSG.
But what are those things, precisely, and how might they be even further developed, particularly now that we have the chance for a new series?
By the way, the trajectory of BSG seems to match the early post-series fate of B5 in that a teledramatic method of further development was seen as preferable. A number of television movies were made after the last season of B5. The post-B5 series Crusade was generally well-received but apparently did not match the popularity of its predecessor.
#6 I would like to find that place as well, but I have a feeling that when you get there, it might not be what you expected.
I am a huge trek fan, but I must say the last 3 years of BSG have been awesome, (1st and 2nd slightly better than the 3rd) and like they say “its one of the best TV shows in years” and I completely agree, its awesome, and anything but boring. I know this is a trek board, but with the launch of season of BSG 3 DVD, (Which I purchased yesterday) and the release of season 4 in a couple of weeks, how could you not be excited. BSG is a television show for adults, and it’s not your ST TOS, but a realistic cerebral TV show for adults. As far as ANY show on TV right now, in my opinion, there is no better. I can’t wait for season 4 of BSG, and if you have not given the show a chance, watch the mini series and if you are open minded, I am sure you will be hooked, just rent it from Netflix. BSG is the type of show that can stand up on repeat viewings, and like ST TOS, TNG, and that’s how I can judge a great TV show.
If you want to talk about borning, then talk about Boston Legal and the like.
#9, Battlestar Galactica portrays a fight for survival inherent in the original premise.
Also, dispite all of the depressing and desperate realism, there is also hope portrayed.
The episode “33″ ended with a birth, a number added to the number of humans who survived the Cylon attack. That’s HOPE.
I see Battlestar Galactica as having a realistick, gritty portrayal of human endurance and survival.
It may be depressing on the surface, but it is also a positive comment on the human capacity to survive and adapt even the most dire of circumstances.
Our worthiness of survival, and how we can survive and adapt as human beings is a central theme of the show.
I love both shows, Star Trek (been a fan since I was 2, sitting in front of the TV watching reruns from my mother’s lap, and making a “whoosh” sound as the Enterprise zooms past during the opening credits), and of the new Battlestar Galactica, as a late bloomer watching the Miniseries, followed by the first season on DVD.
Very different animals, but both fantastic television series.
I’m very doubtful that Moore can bring BSG to a satisfying end.
Now he’s even admitting there will be loose ends. That alone is indicative of painting one’s self into a corner. After last season’s absurd finale, I almost threw in the towel.
And if it ends up as, “the humans are REALLY the bad guys,” I’ll puke.
Caprica? I’ll pass.
Thank you to everyone, from S. John Ross onward, who commented on my messages here.
I do think, as I have said, that BSG is a profound and serious TV series and I respect Moore for all his creative efforts in connection with it. I also agree that BSG is one of the best TV series ever made — of any kind — and I say this as an admirer of police procedurals like Hill Street Blues. All I ask for, however, is a bit more clarity on what it is that BSG really stands for. I’m not asking for hope, necessarily, because, fundamentally, “hope” is simply too vague and facile a concept at this level of analysis. (It is for a similar reason that I distrust politicians, whether Democrat or Republican, who sell their platform on the basis of “hope,” or “change,” or “faith,” or “American values,” or “staying the course.”) I think I would like to be more clearly informed of how BSG illuminates the human condition and tells us something more than that existence can be difficult in the extreme.
I know that Moore has plans for BSG (although I know that this sounds very much like saying that the Cylons have a plan for humanity — but I say this jokingly!) and I know, in my heart of hearts, that Moore is interested in presenting themes in BSG that people like me — raised on Trek, warts and all — might find a refreshing change. But — and this is as much an admission as anything else — I simply don’t see what those themes are, and I wish Moore would be a little less coy about them.
Perhaps — and I freely admit this — this says more about me and people like me than it does about either BSG or Moore. Perhaps I am impatient to know just what it is that I’m supposed to learn. But I would very much like to understand what it is that we are to know, and somehow all the pain and suffering we see on screen as afflicted upon the good people of the Galactica and its charges have stood more as obstacles than as conduits to that understanding, at least to me.
Then again, there is something to be said for patience, and perhaps it is all too true that I very too little of it these days.
Like many others, I can only hope to learn the truth of the matter, whatever it may be.
Correction — as regards patience, I meant to say that perhaps it is all too true that I have too little of it these days.
I’ll certainly watch the first few Caprica’s and see if they grab me. I have to wonder at a non-space based show that’s kinda sudsy by nature. I’m not saying it can’t work, indeed it’s got the pedigree. And I can’t wait to see more super-hot fembots with their spines all aglow. All I’m saying is I may find myself longing for big ships to blow up stuff.
I don’t think Caprica is going to happen as a series. The pilot will happen, but it seems doubtful that the Scifi channel is going to commit money and resources to spin off of a show good as it is , whose numbers have been steadily declining year after year.
RE: 15.
I was just having this conversation the other day with a friend of mine. I have to land on the side of television. While the movies are great, Star Trek (at least, my personal take of it) works best as serialized fiction.
That is to say, Trek thrives when given the audience is given a chance to return home as it were to those characters, that bridge. Yes, the movies allow for advances in character that we normally won’t see on the television screen as television tends to support the status quo. SEE: Removal of LaForge’s VISOR; the emotion chip; Spock’s death and subsequent rebirth; the beginnings of lasting peace with the Klingons. These are all major breaks to the norm, and as such lend itself to dramatic storytelling.
But with television, we’re allowed to learn who these characters are. We’re allowed the chance to fall in love with them. In essence, television allows us to be one of the crew in an odd way. You like Kirk. You like Spock. You’re infatuated with Dax. And when someone asks, “Why?” The answer tends to be, “Well… because of that one scene, in that one episode where such-and-such happened” or something along those lines.
Serialized fiction allows the audience a greater appreciation for what’s being seen. It’s more like a long marriage. There are ups. There are downs. Sometimes you love ‘em, and sometimes you just want to beam them up, and scatter their molecules across the cold, deadness of space. Television allows us that sense of commitment as opposed to the movies which is more “wham-bam-thank ya’-ma’am.”
They can be fun, but when it’s all over, that’s that. But those are my two cents.
I’m available for a remake!!!
Peace,
Gil Gerard
quote:
“Yes, the movies allow for advances in character that we normally won’t see on the television screen as television tends to support the status quo.”
That’s actually a limitation which does not exist for most new series (like Galactica, Lost, Heroes), and it’s probably one of the reasons why TV is so much better than cinema at the moment.
#37 I think Moore has addressed this in his podcasts. Ultimately, BSG doesn’t stand for anything. It is an existential universe, where there are difficult moral choices with no easy answers. It is up to the audience member to supply those. As an agnostic, I approve. I think BSG is one of the best things on TV, because it doesn’t spoonfeed a worldview (unlike ST, which I love and has a definite POV on the outcome of society, but also, as a consequence, it is incredibly vague about the details of its “utopia”: how does a world without money work, how does everyone have the ability to fulfill their potential, et. al.? Even, cut and dried precepts like the Prime Directive are often honored in the breech–because the world does easily fit a set of black and white rules). Ultimately, I think ST is modernist, while BSG falls in the post-modernist camp.
with regard to BSG i have one my own crazy theories about the show and where it will end. As to who the 12 Cylon is, im not sure i buy the notion it’s Kara, Im convinced that its Baltar,Why the whole Projection in his head of Six which Cylons seem to be able to do, but i think for some strange reason the Cylons don’t want him to find out who he really is. Here’s anotherwild theory, the coloniels are machnine decended, on Kobol, people created their own equivilent to the Cylons who in turn evolved and rebelled and masacred most of the human population of Kobol who most likly went to Earth(which is probably the real origin point not Kobol) the machines of Kobol forgot they were machines and left for the colonies. the final 5 were creators gods and shepards to them and most likely engineered them selves into the gene pool so that at certain key points in history they would constantly re occur. Now why this crazy theory? well the phase it has happened before and it will happen again, the cycles of history repeat, from what I am hearing of season 4 the Cylons are about to have their own little machine rebellion
UFO was a series that hit close to the mark of reality as well as dealing with war on a psychological level.
One of the most underrated series out there, I’d love to see UFO re-done by someone like Ron Moore.
The best part about Caprica is….
12 of the actors are already cast. ;)
I’m hoping Caprica will be a Heinleinian take on the BSG minus 50 era.
The 12 colonies are vibrant, successful and “expanding” well before the Cylon war. Heck, RDM could even introduce Ovions or some other *dead* alien race that turns up, and even suggest for later that humanity was being manipulated not just by the Cylon elements, but by something even larger. Sort of the matrushka-doll approach.
We might even have a bit of internal civil war with a colony or two. Caprica being the peace-arranging planet, etc.
Anyway…. will Adar and Adama be young pilots in Caprica methinks?
Dear Gil Gerard,
Please join William Shatner at Jenny Craig’s. Then we’ll talk about future projects.
XXXOOO,
TPTB
It IS absurd that Stewart never got nominated. If I’m not mistaken though, Nimoy got Emmy nominations all three years TOS was on the air.
44, I am afraid to acknowledge that you may be right — that BSG doesn’t stand for anything at all. If this is true, then it confirms, I think, the worst fears of many intellectuals — that life is truly a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. With the caveat, perhaps, that it’s a cold universe out there, and that we as a species or even as individuals must hold tight together…. But then again, isn’t this caveat fundamentally a departure from the postmodernist nihlism of which you have so ably spoken?
I think that many of us instinctively rebel against nihilism, for whatever reason. This may be a result of our childhoods — we are told even from a young age that stories have morals, that good triumphs against evil or adversity, etc., etc. Nihilists tell us that these are all merely just that — tales, and that there really IS no morality, no goodness, no metaphysical force for progress or understanding. The universe just… IS. That’s nihilism.
And it may even be true.
Many of us don’t want to believe that it’s true, because if we did, then what is the reason for us to do what we do? Why should we wake up in the morning? Why should we feed our children, or go to work, or do any of these things? Why not just simply… exist?
This touches upon the whole question of the search for meaning in life, a task made more difficult because, as BSG may teach, there really ISN’T such a meaning on a fundamental level. Not only is there not a fate, but — contrary to what T2 claims, there isn’t even a fate that we make for ourselves. It’s all just happenstance, and it means…. nothing.
That’s nihilism.
That’s not what I want to learn from BSG, and, darn it all … I hope Moore has something else up his sleeve and that the time I’ve spent watching BSG, as little as it has been lately, hasn’t been just as significant as the time I’ve spent watching some mindless reality show, both of which, in this analysis, mean exactly the same thing.
Thank you for a most thoughtful post!
#50 BSG may end in a way none of like, its a very profound and pessimistic show remember what Boomer said of Adam’s when he asked here why the cylons hated them she had no real satisfactory answer to that question but she commented on a part of his speech at the de commissioning ceremony , “maybe you don’t deserve to survive.” If you look at Cylons and Humans they are more alike then either would care to admit and they have a profound hatred of each other because in each they see themselves. No this is not going to end well for anyone. That statement by Adama “we are the Flawed creations has so many frightening implications.
51-
As for endings, I’m putting my money on the oft repeated “This has happened before, and it will happen again.” I suspect much blood on the decks, but also something that points to the beginning of a new cycle… and just maybe some Karma-esque hope that one can improve oneself on the next turn of the wheel.
Every day is like a survival
You’re my Cylon not my rival
Karma karma karma karma karma chameleon…
In my mind BSG is among the greatest (if not the greatest) programs ever made.
As for Moore’s opinion that BSG would not work as a film because it would only focus on a couple of main characters. I say who cares?
That is the nature of the beast when you are doing a film. Depending on what the outcome of the series is i would not be shocked if RDM changes his mind about a BSG film in the future.
Well if they could make Number Six work as a strong character ( I concept I did not think would work ) then I believe they can make Caprica work. Of course I’m very skeptical, but based on the track record of BSG I have no reason to assume it will suck.
I was with you CmdrR right up until the Boy George quote.
I think the amount of intelligent discourse here proves to a degree the quality of BSG. And I don’t actually think that Ron Moore would do something as insipid as an night-time soap with Caprica. Unless he suffers some blunt head trauma between now and when production starts.
“Nihilists tell us that these are all merely just that — tales, and that there really IS no morality, no goodness, no metaphysical force for progress or understanding. The universe just… IS.”
Which is only insightful/dramatic to people who ever felt that they were entitled to cosmic guidance to begin with :) Conflating morality and goodness (human inventions) with metaphysical forces (human superstitions) is what’s wrong with the question, let alone the answer, IMO and YMMV and all that.
I think Nihilism kind of belabors the obvious and mistakes it for revelation. I think that the universe is emotionally void, uncaring and amoral is just a given. But since I regard it as a given, I also regard it as irrelevant to the human experience, because as humans, we can choose how many cues we want to take, or ignore, from the big dumb universe. So … I think nihilism (or perhaps more accurately, the coffeehouse response to nihilism) has it sideways. If the universe DID impose its nature on us with metaphysical hoo-ha, life would be inevitably bleak and contain no morality. But because the universe is just a bunch of stupid rocks with no metaphysical hoo-ha to speak of, life is what we make it … Our society (and our morality, and our decency) is our invention, and therefore our responsibility to either uphold or discard or change.
I don’t think BSG is really nihilistic; there are too many characters being shoved around helplessly by what are, apparently at least, metaphysical forces. The constantly-echoed notion that this is a pattern repeating unavoidably, the constant superstitious overtones, it all points to characters who are playing out something cosmic, like puppets, driven by a very definite purpose that they didn’t choose and don’t uphold … they’re just slaves to it, motes of metallic dust laying along the inevitable shape of a magnetic field. That’s not nihilism; that’s religion.
Which brings us back to the substance of what this site celebrates … Star Trek, which is not (IMO) about good triumphing over evil, and not about some abstract “hope.” It’s about the choices of people who have, in the face of an uncaring universe that doesn’t care one way or another, invented “good and evil” and who have sampled them both and lots of other things besides, and who have chosen one creation over another and who continue to uphold that choice while at the same time examining and refining it.
Or, as I see it:
Star Trek is a idealistic vision of “best case scenario” choices in a neutral universe that lacks its own morality or purpose (and is thus a blank canvas on which we can paint something groovy).
BSG is a superstitious vision of “worst case scenario” fate in a bleak universe that imposes it’s own nature on those within it (and is thus a canvas we don’t get to do anything with because Starbuck already put that wobbly eye thing on it and had no say in the matter) :)
(and if the above post didn’t make it clear, I’m a fan of both shows … though I watch BSG a lot more - ahem - religiously) ;)
Hat Rick:
And that’s why Trek continues to resonate. I don’t know BSG. I have 2 seasons on my shelf to watch. I just always love having the good guys win without having to power up the disruptors. Trek’s universe is far vaster than BSG, and the devastation of a planet can be discussed in Trek as a localized crisis rather than the death of a civilization.
It seems like BSG is the fight for a at least a crappy life against the specter of obliteration, whereas Trek is the fight to live a good and just life in a properly and mostly evolving human/alien society.
I think both shows most likely reflect their times. Trek references the Roddenberry utopia of the 1960’s and BSG today (i.e. original show not relevant) would like to, but realizes that maybe today, viewers want to see heroes succeed in difficult times rather than show some wayward planet how to reform its society to become like the heroes who drive starships.
It’s as if Insurrection’s better denouement would have been the inhabitants fighting and dying for what they had rather than baking bread and playing hackysack during an incursion by aliens and being conveniently rescued. I watched the film on a plane last week, and wondered why the bad guys won. The worthlessness of the planetside inhabitants was offensive. And it’s this TNG-era adoration for “blind and stupid” pacifism which has to be updated to “informed and ready” pacifism. I am a pacifist myself, and I respect the message of Trek almost too much, but I will quote Lois Griffin and Rudolph Giuliani when I say “9-11.”
Bridging the the gap for Trek will be difficult, and JJ will need to create honorable heroes who fight for their beliefs and do not degenerate into illiterate hippies when they talk about human society. Let there be violence, money and poverty, and show how humans are trying to get over it, rather than that vacant lack of recall Trek characters seem to have when referencing the centuries in which its viewers live.
55- “I don’t actually think that Ron Moore would do something as insipid as an night-time soap with Caprica. Unless he suffers some blunt head trauma between now and when production starts.”
Doesn’t that happen at the end of every episode? And maybe I shoulda save the Culture Club for the remake of Galactica 1980. **gasp**
arrr… Awk!
I’ve only seen the first few seasons of this show and, yeah, it be bonny. But it do get a bit too much in all it’s gloom and doom.
Remember that it was a crazed murderous traitor that said “life is truly a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” And he got his in tha end… but not after a bunch of needlessly dead Scotts.
Geez- how tormented we can be even when doing what we think to be truly the right thing, with least negative impact on ever’un else… Like yer elections… which terrible person ya gunna pick as the next world … err… US leader? : ) Harrr! Cheap shot from a guy who had Blair!
But I be a simple sailin’ man who likes ta dip inta that dark space from time ta time… but surely not to stay thar too long… 2 seasons was enough fur me… I’ll listen ta Bach when I want such dank… and look for hope in Trek: “How many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world, That has such people in it!”
Oh, whar the hell was tha frackin’ robot dog? Miss that annoyin’ little bugger…
#58: “…rather than that vacant lack of recall Trek characters seem to have when referencing the centuries in which its viewers live.”
Except when it comes to writers and scientists! For whatever reason, 23rd and 24th century people seem absolutely fascinated by 20th-century writers and scientists :)
#60: K-9 reappeared recently in Sarah Jane’s show! Oh, wait, you meant the OTHER frackin’ robot dog ;)
Awwww… God love the mechanical beasties…especially the blonde ones…
arrrr…
#59
To which are you referring? Ron Moore suffering blunt head trauma or doing something insipid?
#60
“Oh, whar the hell was tha frackin’ robot dog? Miss that annoyin’ little bugger…”
I’m starting to sound like I own a piece of the Seattle Science Fiction Museum, but that is where you can find Muffitt, the annoying robot dog that was played by a chimp. Well, at least the costume is there.
I am so glad that I am a fan of both worlds; Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica. But don’t tell anyone: I also like Star Wars. And Terminator. And the Matrix. And lot’s of other stuff. As a matter of fact, I am not conflicted in the least by a wide range of tastes. Just imagine.
#64: That seems to be the case with every one of us here ;)
Oh wait, CmndrR, I know what you are talking about now. The tag after the credits. I have seen blunt head trauma, evisceration, skinned and burned alive, shot, stabbed, and squished. Along with a host of other nasty ways to end.
But, like Bugs Bunny, it is only cartoon violence. Or cut-out picture violence. Or something. Poor Ron Moore.
Maybe they should have done that to Berman.
#48, you’ve not seen Gil lately. I met him last August at DragonCon, and he was looking 20 years younger than a couple years prior. He strongarmed a buddy and I to buy his limited edition Tshirts, which he autographed for us.
The Shat may need to go where Kirstie failed… but Gil is ready for action.
If you want to know the latest and greatest on BSG from the most OCD people on the web regarding canon and accuracy.. go to the battlestar wiki!!
#45
Moore has confirmed that the 5th is neither Kara, Adama, The President, Baltar or any other of the human leads. In the new TV Guide he said if someone guesses the 5th that it will be just that - a guess. They’ve laid no groundwork or clues as to who the 12th cylon will be. So it’s supposed to be a complete surprise.
I had a notion at one time that perhaps the baby itself would end up as the final model, as it has been present in visions of the FInal Five. This idea that Humans & Cylons are really part of the same whole, sort of like the Mystics & the Skeksis in The Dark Crystal, and this cycle continues where the two break apart, then eventually come together again (in the form of the baby). I have no basis for that, but it was somehow planted in my head.
Are there images of a hot blonde planted in your head too, sean?
Tell us about those.
Yes, and I can only say that it involves illuminated spinal chords.
I want to express my appreciation for all the thought that went into the discussion above about the philosophy of BSG.
One thing that really grabbed me was the idea that BSG isn’t fully nihilistic in that it may posit some kind of metaphysical order after all, as described above, and this led me to thinking that it is quite possible that Moore might lead us down to considering the human race as the equivalent of the equivalent of the native peoples colonized by the West under the latter’s self-induced illusions of note. Here in the ‘States, we considered that the Southwest was ours by the doctrine of Manifest Destiny, which was admitedly at least politically expedient as it was metaphysical, but there you are. The idea that the West must ‘civilize” erstwhile Third World countries in wave after wave of colonization efforts from the 1600’s onward (Catholic missions in the New World, and so forth, all the way to the White Man’s Burden) is also fundamentally a metaphysical one. What Moore might be doing is telling us that the Cylons themselves have such a mission — after all, he’s always told us that they “have a plan” — and that while this mission is no more metaphysically justified than Manifest Destiny, it is an in-universe fact that the Cylons, at least, truly believe in it, and that humanity is a relative bit player in the Cylon grand scheme of things.
This intriguingly inverted view of the universe is brilliant, if I may say so, and it allows one to be almost nihilist without being precisely so because — for one thing — who knows if the Cylons’ god really IS the “true” god? We in the audience certainly don’t know yet, because it hasn’t yet been revealed, and indeed the answer to this question may not be clear even to Moore himself at this stage.
Through indirect storytelling and showing us acts rather than bludgeoning the audience with instantaneous, end-of-show moral results, Moore continually shows us that he has the chops to do great TV shows. As I say, I’m just impatient to see what it is that is supposed to develop in the final analysis, and I have decided to avoid the sadness, fictional as it is, that the series presents by way of lending substance on the way. This, I would venture, may be as much my loss as anything else, but again… there it is.
#64
A planet whar dogs evolved from apes?
arrrrr….
What if the profound truth of BSG is that they are all in fact machines, has anyone thought of the possibility that what left Kobol thousands of years ago only thought is was human and what left for earth thousands of years ago were the humans who survived that first insurrection of machines on Kobol remember the pile of human skulls on Kobol? It ties into the repeating of history , it has happened before it will happen again, the Cylons in seasons 4 are abut to become the latest viciims of the repeating cycle of history when they have their own machine rebellion, this bit of plot info was released months ago with regard to season 4. The final five were possibly the creators of the machines on Kobol, the final 5 the gods or whatever they are, I suspect that they re occure to guide them at critical junctures in history. It would be ironic if its programing that has this tragic cycle of history to repeat
#5- if billions of people died and a few thousand people remained, exactly how happy and cheerful do you think they’d be?
The premise of BSG is dark- always has been. Moore and co. are making the show which the 70s-era creators lacked the testicular fortitude to unleash.
Dirk Benedict is the 12th Cylon
No, it is Ron D. Moore. Who else could it be?
I’ve forgotten and/or lost track: Is there, in the BSG universe, no way to determine whether someone is human or Cylon? Other than by the glowing spine, that is.
Ultimately, if a machine is indistinguishable from a human being, then the difference isn’t all that important, on the strength of the adage that a distinction without a difference makes no difference.
From what has been described, the prequel nature of Caprica will tell us precisely how it was that humanity came to create Cylons of such near-perfect humanity. It is open to interpretation, through parity of reasoning, that Cylons could look at the Caprican story as their own equivalent of the story of Genesis. From their standpoint, the pursuit of their own … humanity? Cylonity? … is the more important feature of what happened in the years prior to the destruction of most of humanity.
I like the cycle idea mentioned above. It’s very Greek in its vision of the circular nature of time; it’s also consistent with the cyclical nature of Eastern religions. The merger of human history with Cylon history would also serve the Hegelian hypothesis that progress requires destruction; the destruction of humanity is a necessary stop toward apotheosis, albeit in cybernetic form.
Some suggestions of parallels with the V’Ger hypothesis (TMP) and “The Deconstruction of Falling Stars” (B5) avail themselves here.
#68 Sean that puts the kabosh on my theory about who the final Cylon is, there is one thing, on Razor that Cylon that the Pegaus xo encountered on the Base Star was another possibility, but not likely. I guess no one is buying my whole machine origin theory with regard to the Coloniels. Its possible I could be building this case on a lot of inference and circumstantail evidence.
My idea is probably more fanciful then probable
#77
Dr Baltar developed a reliable method of detection, which is how he knew that Sharon was a Cylon. The problem was it took too long (something like 11 hours for each test) and would take decades to test the entire fleet.
Also, Caprica will show us the origins of the original Cylons (the metal ones from the original series & Razor), not the almost human versions we see in the new series. Those were actually built by the machines, which is interesting in and of itself - why did the Cylons need to evolve? Was it simply to infiltrate the ranks of the enemy to win the war? Or was it the desire to improve themselves in some way? How ‘human’ were the original versions?
or they get to earth and find the machine god, that woulb a real kicker
79, that refreshes my memory — thank you!
I LOVE the way this discussion is going. A lot of very intelligent and well thought out hypothesis, much of which I hadn’t considered.
To which I would like to add that they blowed up real good.
#82 THX 1138 what do you think of the machine origin theory of the coloniels that i put foward? im just curious as to what you or any one might thinlk on this, bekieve me it you think foolish or off based don’t worry I won’t be offened or put off in the least.
#73: For about a season and a half now I’ve been leaning toward the general guess that Humans and Cylons either (A) ultimately become the dual progenitors of what we call the Human race or (B) already merged at some point in the distant past and that part of the cycle is creating a new offshoot race (a Cylon analogue) every time around the track.
Back when people were still arguing whether the Cylons/Humans represented this country or that country, it always seemed to me that they were representing the same one (this one, whatever “this” one you live in), just two sides of it.
In terms of what it’s about, I think it’s about free will (a question that certainly plays well in the context of all the religious themes). What side it ultimateley comes down on, though, I dare not guess. The Star Trek fan in me wants to see Adama pull the plug on the cycle … throwing a metaphorical switch [dear god, please not a literal switch] and saying “all this has happened before [BOOM] but it will NEVER happen again …” The regular BSG viewer in me says that ultimately all of the characters are puppets in a play … that even Boomer’s choices (for example) while apparently bold in context, are all just part of the Program.
Either way, I’m along for the ride.
Real life is dark people. Drama is a fact of life. I love Star Trek, but I know it has always suffered from being regarded as a pure fantasy. That’s why it gets mocked in certain circles. Sure, it’s nice to escape every now and then, but cold-hard life is what really attracts people. BSG shows us normal people with FLAWS, and then thusts them into extraordinary situations. We humans like to see character flaws–they are interesting to us. Reality sells. Unfortunately though, some people are afraid of reality.
They’d rather play with tribbles and pretend sh!t doesn’t happen.
That was one I hadn’t considered, Garovorkin. I really like your theory on the circular nature of the story and the way that all may be machines. The skulls could tie in nicely to that end. And I also like your idea of finding the machine god on earth.
It all sure does provide food for thought.
#84 John duel Progenitors giving rise to humanity, interesting idea. That possibility I had not considered,it does have certain plausibility about it. if you stop and think about it, back in season three I think, Dan Beirs made the statement “we want to make Earth our home” . this along with the up coming rebellion by the Centurians against the human Models, would force the Human models to side with humanity .That would set the stage for the coming together of both Cylon and Human. Your right about free will here it may end up being non existent in this whole drama.
Just FYI the cast of BSG will be delivering the Top Ten List on Lettermans Late Show on CBS tonight in uniform………should be good stuff.
KennyB
I agree that the TNG movies were way to focused on Picard and Data, and that the other characters really suffered for it. The fact is, TNG (the series) was always an ensemble show. Star Trek 4 and 6 (TOS films) are by far the best ensemble movies. Would be nice if TNG had a good ensemble movie in the future (25th Anniversay, perhaps!?!)
#86 ThX -1138 something just now occurred to me which might bolster my machine theory. Here it is, we know that Cylons have the ability to project realtime scenarios in their heads, according to the Six.
Baltar, and the six clone that is in his head, what if he is projecting, Adama reminicing about his wife, Projecting, Apollo when he was out in space siut leaking, projecting himself in a lake swimming, President Laura Roslynn, her to precise to be true visions and dreams, some of which she shared in common with 6, Kara’s last minutes before her death, projections, These are not simple delusions or memories they are doing the same thing as the Cylons do, this could be tease by Ron Moore, he puts the clues right in front of us.
The 12 model, i think he may have shown us that one as well. In the Movie Razor when the Xo from Pegasus stayed on the Base Star and founf the mysterious Cylon in the Vat who made prediction of what Kara Thrace was likely to do in the future. He may be the one. Again i could be wrong but this does have a certain levl of Possibility about it
I am glad there is both a BSG and STAR TREK. I would be bored if all the various Scfi shows/films were of the some tone and style. Yes BSG is more of a grim show, but look at the situation they are in. There are some moments of humor of course it is more of a black humor type, but it is there. I will miss the show, but I am glad it is going out strong rather than strung out.;)
I will be curious how they end it all. Here is to a good and interesting one!
Nice to hear Gil is back to fightin’ weight. I wouldn’t mind seeing him in something interesting. How’s Erin Grey looking these days?
I have kind of entertained a notion similar to that. It has led me to believe that Baltar was the 12. He just didn’t know about it. He is actually the one who is projecting the visions into peoples thought processes and why he thinks of himself as an instrument of God. I don’t believe it for a second when Ron Moore says that he hasn’t tried to lead outr thinking in one direction or another. I think he has presented with many possible truths and we just needed to figure out the right one. It’s also why I have been confused as to what the reality in this show is. Because I feel it’s not what it appears.
Anyway, it is one reason that this show is so fun to watch.
If you don’t think Baltar is a Cylon, then explain to me how he survived a nuclear blast, sheltered only by 6, and then we see him trotting across an open field with suitcase and but a few scratches.
If he’s not a Cylon, he ought to be a glowing pin cushion.
and CmdrR, Erin is looking more lovely than ever. She must be drinking from the same water fountain Dick Clark used for decades!
#93 Baltar as God, now that would explain why the Cylons are so interested in him and it would explain why they handed him back to the humans, he’s the ultimate tool of manipulation for the Cylons among the humans. Some of his action suggest that if he is not a Cylon, deep down he wishes he were because it might provide him with a way of getting out from under all that guilt that he feels for his past actions. There is no question that he is suffering because he got caught. With regard to Caprica Six she has gone from patriot to Human sympathizer first for her own reason later because after dying a few times and experiencing love and seeing what it means to be human and realizing that at a certain level that the Cylons are no better then the humans they tried to wipe out.
I thought the show was great when it first came out, a couple of the episodes were dull by overall it was a great show. Too bad it got the ax so soon. I never did watch the new show on SciFi it never really seemed to interest me.
(And on the subject of the heavy religious themes, I just noticed the official site is decorated with an amusing “franchise reboot” of Christ and the gang at the Last Supper) :)
It’s funny how Spiner was chosen to be the second ’star’ to Stewart in the TNG movies after Generations. I suppose with Frakes directing First Contact he was happy for Riker to take a back seat to Spiner.
It’s a shame that the other TNG characters were sidelined, but to be fair they still had more to do mostly than the supporting characters in the TOS movies. Poor old Sulu, Chekov and Uhura were lucky if they said anything other than “I’m receiving a distress call, Course laid in or Warp 5 now”.
So how do you guys think it’s going to end? I say BSG and the fleet get to earth being followed by tons of basetars when the U.S.S. Enterprise appears to take out the cylon fleet :-p jk lol
Seriously, I think that maybe the fleet and BSG will make it to earth, but also cylons will pursue them. Have a massive battle over earth, and both sides have heavy casualties. BSG crashes on Earth (cool fx shot) and MOST of the characters die. The survivors of the battle (human and cylon) realize that earth in pretty barren (they arrive before humans) and they breed and create mankind on earth. Basically, that would make us all cylon/human hybrids. lol Well I’m not too sure, but I think the whole *humans and cylons can have kids* thing throughout the series has been important. Hera is the first of the new breed! Thoughts?
#99 it kind of goes back to my argument that what left kobol were machines who thought they were human. Coloniels and Humans you have two sets of rival machines, but your ending is to the series is as good as any. I still have a naging suspicion that what they will find on earth are the human decendants of those who fled Kobol in the last days or some type of machine entity calling it self god. I am convinced of one other thing, certain story clues make it obvious to everyone but the Coloniels that Earth and not Kobol is the origin point. Keep thinking of that phrase it has happened before and it will happen again, that is key though out the whole series and not time but history repeating itself.
wow I like Garovorkin’s machine origin theory too!
#99: Yeah, that’s exactly the kind of thing I was meaning with the “dual progenitors” bit in post 84.
yea Ross, sorry, I didn’t read all of the posts
#102 and #103 there is one other point to think about the relationship of the final 5 to both the Cylons and the Coloniels,this one is frightening and may further prove the machine theory and John Ross further bolster your convergence argument as well. The final five are considered Gods by the Coloniels and the Cylons though they think of them as fellow Cylons hold them in reverence almost like gods. The final five are trying to engineer a better product from both groups. It Puts Adama’s Phrase “it is we who are the flawed creation’ actually in truth both Cylons and Humans are Flawed creations and the final five’s purpose is to fix those flaws. It crazy but it is something to consider. I think thats it for while on this topic for me
Since it’s all happened before and will all happen again, does that mean a syndication deal is already in place?
Of course, the real question is why the Cylons like Bob Dylan so much ;)
Love both TREK and BSG. Like that they are both so different. Variety is the spice of life and the joy of entertainment! Simple direct the to point of my opinion!;)
I also well be very curious how this BSG saga ends. It is fun reading some of the speculations. A sign of a good show is to provoke all types of discussion and I think both STAR TREK and BSG have done that.
Make it so and beam me up!
#103: Nothing to be sorry about; we’re just on the same wavelength is all :)
#104: Yeah, definitely something to ponder. I just hope if anyone ends up a god it’s someone like Adama …
Of course, the Number-Six-As-Jesus image on the official website reminds me of a joke I made while my wife and I were watching the show “This isn’t the first time we’ve seen a struggle for free will with a character called Number Six in it …”
#106 Sean I have admit the choice of Bob Dylan’s All along the Watch Tower is a rather curious. Creepy how all 4 seemed to recite a portion of the lyrics, you wonder, does that song tie in to who they are and their over all agenda, which they seem to have no knowledge of at least on a conscience level.
#108 They refer to 6 at the Redeemer in the comercial,and being a redeemer more often then not means ending up a Martyr. to pay for her own sins and in dying redeem everyone else also check out comment 93 Thx 1138’s Idea of the 12 is interesting, 12 apostles?
#109
Yeah, the show is full of biblical references, so the number 12 is interesting. If I remember correctly, 12 was governmental perfection or completion, while 6 represented mankind (or more specifically, the notion that mankind falls short of spiritual or heavenly perfection, 7, so being incomplete). Besides the 12 apostles, you had the 12 tribes (I think that corresponds to the 12 tribes of Kobol in BSG), the 12 gates of heaven, 12 angels, etc., plus lots of mutiples of 12 in various descriptions of God’s Kingdom.
I’m curious if the final Cylon is actually model 12, or another number? We don’t definitively know all the Cylon’s number designations, do we? I can only think of 3, 5, 6 & 8…all the others have names. So the numbers don’t seem to be sequential. I wonder if the final model will be 10 (divine)?
#109: Yeah, the apostles are definitely what’s implied by the image there, which is a fun bit of play overlaying the 12 apostles to the existing 12s in the show … I figured they’d get around to that one eventually (they’ve gone down the checklist of meaningful dozens, after all, building on the cue, presumably, from the original show naming the colonies after the signs of the zodiac and implying an overlay with the judaic tribes according to the show’s Mormon roots). So, seeing the apostles alluded to wasn’t a surprise … but seeing Number Six standing in the Jesus position, that caused me to do a double-take :)
#110 Sean and #111 John if you want to take the 12 a step further and this might be a stretch, Ron Moore says that the end of the series will be final, a probable answer as to why, The 12 tribe of Israel wandered the desert for 40 years I believe, so that the generation that sinned would over time die off, is it possible that that is going to be how long it takes for them to reach the Earth the promised land, will any of the main characters be alive to see Earth or will it be the generations of humans and Cylons after? lead by Hera? thats one notion thats might be worth considering, because as Laurra Rosllyne said of Hera ,she is the future and I believe six made a similar observation.
Never mind whether BSG films would be a good idea/something Moore & co would want to do - they don’t have the movie rights, do they? I thought the movie rights were completely split from the TV rights.
#112
Didn’t the Cylons disappear for exactly 40 years? I think it’s mentioned in the miniseries. Perhaps the original Cylons had to wander the ‘wilderness’ for 40 years until the creation of the new humanoid models that would be ready to take on the Human issue?
How far will we take this? I SAY ALL THE WAY! ;)
#113 Glen Larson owns the movie rights and i don’t think he would be inclined to release them because he still has a notion of trying to get his own feature film done, not that its ever likely to happen.
#112 yes as a matter of fact they did disappear 40 years ago, interesting, I had not given that detail any thought. there’s more then few possibilities with this one as well.
BSG is so good, glad to see some of you share my enthusiasm.
Lately though, I’m wondering just what my expectations of the new movie. I’ve rewatched some of DS9 lately and I was remembering what Ron Moore said about DS9 taking trek “as far as it could go”. I think he might be right. People seem to either love or hate DS9 because it was willing to tackle issues that traditional trek could not deal with. As a trek fan, DS9 delivered more of the goods (that I wanted) than any other series, not special effects or wars, but politics, morality, character work and deep, long term story lines with contemporary overtones. That’s what I love about BSG. If we’re really going back to the toothless alien of the week, technobabble driven, deus ex machina resolved, exposition dialogue type middle of the road offerings that dominated the recent series (and even the original) then trek is going to continue to look kind of lame and childish when compared to serious adult dramas like BSG.
#116
I seem to remember someone laying it out in this way - in TOS & TNG they often stopped off at a world, changed the entire culture, then zipped off to the next planet. DS9 was about the people that had to stick around and deal with the mess a Kirk or Picard left behind.
Sisko couldn’t just destroy the supercomputer running a world and say ‘Good luck guys, we know you’ll work it out’. He had to find out what happens to a society when you remove the supercomputer that’s been running society for 5000 years. Kirk might have told the Bajorans to ditch their religious order and get with it, but Sisko couldn’t afford that luxury. I think that’s what I most enjoyed about DS9 - that concept of responsibility & consequence.
Sorry,just one more thing.
What I’m saying is that the bar has been set very high by previous trek and some other sci fi. Sure, I’ll likely see the movie in any case, but if trek is really coming back it needs to be at least as good as ds9 or I doubt i’d watch it. I love trek but I still haven’t seen all if voyager or enterprise, simply because they were not, to me, a step forward.
#118 Micheal its to bad the trek franchise took 3 steps back with the forgettable Voyager and Enterprise which could have should and in the end wasn’t. I still wish we had gotten a Captain Sulu series instead of the crap called voyager. Thing about wrankles me is that there are so many trek fans who are incapable appreciating what Ds9 did for the whole fanchise, namely save it from the creeping mediocrity that had started in the 4 season of the next generation. The next generation even though better then the original would not take risks. Unlike ds9 every character was annoyingly well adjusted and got along hunky dory for the most part, Boring. On ds9 Ron more gave us a cast that did not necessarily fully like or trust one another or like each other but they found a way to work together which is alot closer to what real people are liks. Good drama has charater conflict which is was DS9 had what Ron Moore introduced into the trek universe.
#117 - Totally agreed. Consequences were not only avoided by switching planets every week, but even things that should have changed rarely did. The so-called reset button. I understand the network argument for this, long term story elements may discourage viewers from watching it for the first time, but I think it really undermines the drama when you absolutely know that everything will be back to normal by next week.
#118 - Again, totally agreed. Binding characters to so-called 24th century norms and ideals , which are never really described in detail, limits the drama in so many ways. I was so happy that they had relaxed this view and tried to explore these ideas in DS9, stretching the limits of this particular ideal. I think star trek philosophy is deliberately “big tent” that is, poorly fleshed out, so that people are not offended or excluded by it. After all, a system where there is no money and where everyone is entitled to a standard quality of life is at least a socialist system, which I don’t mind, but it would never be described that way on screen. I also liked that DS9 showed some of the possible consequences of what we knew about their philosophy, such as with eugenics or section 31. This was new territory at least, not rehashes of previous material. The last two Treks seemed to think that just putting a bunch of people on a ship and having them go through the motions was enough.
Sorry… 118 should be 119.
#120 Ron Moore also had working with him two very talented individuals in Ira Steven Behr and Robert Hewitt Wolfe both of whom like Ron Moore got sick of the Limitations that Star trek the Next generation imposed on them. Ds9 also had to my the greatest Comander/Captain in Sisko. Avery Brooks is a truely awesome actor, every bit as Good as Patrick Stewart if not better. Sisko was both tragic and Heroic, his life was difficult and made more so by the Emmisery role which he initially didn’t want but came to embrace.
#114: Yeah, 40 is another one of those Biblically-Significant numbers (Forty years in the desert, 40 days Ezekiel on his side, 40 days for Moses on the mount, yadda yadda). If you’re into that kind of thing for more than chuckles, picking apart religions for their numbers is a huge hobby for some folks.
#123 further thing about BSG when starbuck retrieved the Arrow of Athena and they found the temple went inside and it showed them the consitaions as they would been seen from Earth that one kind of made it evident that who Earth Origin not Kobol. Im curious that Adama and company didn’t wonder about that after seeing those constellations. It tells me that its probably thousands of years past our time. Plus there are other things for example their names and surnames are like find on earth and I know there are a lot of reasons why this one might be silly reason but their spoken and written language is Standard english, I know in scif the Aliens speak english,because of convenience as in Stargate, Translator microbes as in Farscape or in Trek you have Universal translators, But in Trek you have Alien written languages, B5 same thing. But if they were from Kobol you think that Ron Moore would have devised a pseudo alien written language for the Colonists. This could be Ron Moore’s not so subtle way of telling us that its Earth not Kobol.
#124
You’d almost think they would write some derivation of Greek or Latin, given that their religious doctrine seems to be based on a combination of Greek & Roman mythology. Or maybe it’s a bit like Trek’s own ‘Bread and Circuses’, where the culture moved forward but retained a great deal of the Roman elements in its society.
Also, wasn’t part of the whole Kobol exodus story that one of the 12 Lords of Kobol turned on the others because he wanted to be worshipped as a god, and that’s what led to the formation of the 13 tribes? There’s parallels there to Judas (betraying the 11 other Apostles) as well as Satan (believing himself to be greater than God). Maybe the Cylon god will turn out to be The Devil, in a sense.
The problem I stumble into with all this is that Cylons are only supposed to have existed as a culture for roughly 50 years, right? Based on the timeframe for the new show, ‘Caprica’. Yet, it seems as though they’ve existed for far longer. Even the first Hybrid’s warning that ‘this has all happened before’ seems to indicate the Cylons have been around a lot longer than we think. What if they are somehow the 13th Tribe?
#125 Sean maybe the 12 lord might be the machine god that they find on earth? Interesting possibility. the 12 lord might even be the final Cylon for all we know and again we have the number 12 in play it would be a riot if his name turned out to be Count Iblis. That would be the ultimate kicker. i haven’t seen a series with this level of writing this level complexity since Babylon 5 and DS9. I like it when a series makes you have to think story possibilities like these.
the reason that startrek failed after the next generation is that they got away from gene roddenberrys vision of star trek. they went and made it dark and somber and in the tos and tng it was ligh and adventuresous and there was a few dark elements but just to keep it fresh. just like in the tos with the klingons and romulans and the borg in the tng series. but when gene passed away it just got to dark and thats when a lot of fans quit watching. i hope jj abrams can bring back genes true star trek vision and bring back the real star trek we all love and respect.
#5 Hillarious. The BEST drama sci-fi combination in history and you are bothered that it is dark or grim? Ever watch the news and see what the real world is like? BSG actually has real people that are imperfect forced into crisis. Sorry everyone does not do the right thing and agree with the shows glorious leader. Please. Go back and watch Lost in Space so you can clearly understand what characters are good and bad so that you do not get confused.