Happy First Contact Day April 5, 2008
by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: TNG, Trek Franchise , trackback
According to Star Trek future history, on April 5th, 2063 Dr. Zefram Cochrane became the first man to break the warp barrier (with a little help from the crew of the NCC-1701E) and garnered the attention of some Vulcans in the neighborhood…sparking the ‘first contact’ between humans and aliens…and the beginnings of the United Federation of Planets and all that came with it.
The fateful moment
The following scene from Star Trek First Contact is one of the more powerful in all Trek film history, culminating the best of the TNG era films. It was a bit brave to have the ultimate moment in the film given over to the guest actors and have the TNG ’stars’ literally fade off into the background. In that brief glimpse of Humans and Vulcans meeting for the first time, in friendship, you see in an instant the entirety of Gene Roddenberry’s message of a humanity that will eventually (after many struggles) come together into an optimistic future. The moment, punctuated by composer Jerry Goldsmith with just the right amount of celebratory gravitas, truly said this is our future and this is the beginning of ‘Star Trek.’
Learn more about the ‘First Contact’
(links from our friends at Memory Alpha)
First Contact Day
First Contact (film)
The Phoenix
Zefram Cochrane
…and from the real world attempts at first contact
NASA: Warp Drive, When?
SETI Institute
How will you celebrate?
Planning a First Contact viewing party? Going to finally go up to that girl/guy and make your own ‘first contact’? Share your ideas with your fellow trekkies.
Comments»
Best Star Trek movie ever.
Only 55 more years to go. ;)
I’ll celebrate it by wishing for First Contact to go how it went in Enterprise’s Mirror Universe episode. Take out a shotgun and conquer the Vulcans!
On the real April 5, 2063, I will be in Bozeman, Montana having the biggest party of my life…
First Contact did exactly the right thing for a Trek movie — it gave us a story that really mattered. It gave the characters so much to respond to.
I remember seeing it in the theaters. When the Vulcan revealed his ears, the audience burst into cheers. A testament to how much Trek’s hopeful future means in our time.
40 yrs back today, i myself made the first contact with life. so it was a huge surprise when i first saw the movie and my birthday chosen as a fictional major event.
Too long to wait! Hurry it up, Cochrane! :)
I utterly adore the First Contact Main Theme. And that moment. Never fails to get me to claim I’ve got something in my eye…
Anyone know any Cochranes that look like a promising bunch? Maybe give ‘em a few hints, like that new Michio Kaku book for instance. Heh.
It makes me wish there really were Vulcans out there, keeping an eye on us… I could do without World War III & 600 million dead, however….
I’ll be waiting at the juke box (playing something better than that crappy rockabilly thang.) I’ll only be 100 years old.
He was actually ZEFRAM Cohrane with an F.
you know, watching that scene again… I wonder. How come the rest of the movies couldn’t have that kind of emotional punch to them? I can only think of two other instances, Spock’s death, and McCoy’s terminating his father’s life support. Don’t the writers and powers that be (or were, more appropriately) feel the audience can handle it?
I’ll be 99 when that date comes to pass. Middle aged, by what I’m planning. :-)
man here we go dragging that canon crap in again. in the new and improved star trek universe, first contact will take place over the sub-space internet when a hot green blooded vulcan babe suddenly gets an IM from a buff male twenty-something humanoid from earth who modified a crackberry communicator with some gee-whiz tools he and his whacky friends stole from the science lab where he is employed as a janitor. They resolve to meet at the all night inter-stellar rave in the gamma quadrant, dance the night away and live happily ever after and visualize universal peas, which becomes the basis of the federation.
I’ll be celebrating by meeting one of Star Wars’ best authors, TIMOTHY FRAKIN ZAHN!!
Best TNG movie despite the obvious continuity gaffe of Cochrane being from Alpha Centurai instead of Earth - and no I don’t buy the - he moved there afterwards - rationalization.
First Contact is the last bit of TNG goodness.
Let’s hope the new film has at least as equally a poignant a moment.
Of course, in the mirror universe, this was an equally important moment, as Cochrane starts blasting the Vulcans right away. I remember thinking: “Gee, Bush my stay in office for a very long time!”
@4 Freddy Wise.
Please have a drink for me. In 2063, I’ll be 96–but I’ll probably be dead instead.
The thought of my being dead is really depressing… Thanks.
#13 Jim- Exactly! LOL!!
Well here I go:
I hated FC the first time I saw it, and still do.
Rife with inconsistent writing, plot holes, out-of-character acting, awkward lines, smarmy “humor,” slip-shod special effects, and a derivative Goldsmith score, (Jerry AND Joel, btw) it amazes me how people continue to gush over this movie. Not to mention, the “big surprise ending” being the most groaningly predictable moment in Trek history, Cochrane’s choice of music being appallingly hideous, and, come on, Picard being convinced to blow up HIS SHIP by some smart-assed total stranger?? Would Kirk have done that? Hell, would Pickard have done that on the series?? It’s called bad, careless, and lazy WRITING. The hallmark of the B&B era.
God knows, I’ve TRIED to like it. I’ve recently decided that the whole thing created a tangential, paralell timeline, which resulted in the Archer Enterprise AND is the explanation for the way ST0 looks. But the movie still pisses me off.
I know I’m in the minority, BUT not totally alone in my opinions.
PS- A bright spot is that I found a rare 2 disc set of the score.
It is FAR better than the original release, though the main theme still sounds like something that would be played at a commencement ceremony.
#12
TMP started it all with that incredibly emotional “Is there nothing more” scene, TSFS had very intense and lasting scenes like Kirk’s son being killed and Kirk’s reaction to it, that painful instant when the E is being destroyed, and in the end the wonderful “Jim - your name is Jim” moment. That scene from First Contact may be a very impressive one, but I’d say the original films did offer equally moving moments at the least.
Anyway, I hope I’ll witness the eventual First Contact. ;-)
The UFP is an imperial, tyrannical, homo-sapiens only club.
This is a day to rue.
On th 5th of April 2063…….. Humanity should board the Vulcan ship and crush the Vulcans as the Mirror Episode says to…….
I’ve never liked the Vulcans (apart from spock who’s still cool) I prefer Andorians, Terrans and Romulans. Who all, oh yeah, Hate Vulcans!!
Still, they’re far better than Tellarite filth!
Hail Terra!
Oooo! I’ll be 76!
#5
Totally agree. I saw it in a theatre on the first day it was released, and when the Vulcan threw back his hood, there was a huge cheer and applause from the audience, and quite a few wet eyes (including mine). It had never been explicitly stated in previous ST canon that it was the Vulcans who made first contact with humanity, so although this scene wasn’t a big surprise, it was completely appropriate and gratifying.
It was sad that the B&B couldn’t come close to matching the epic scope and emotional impact of this film in the last two TNG films.
FC ranks up with TWOK as the two best ST films, by far.
#19
actually, Kirk did blow his own ship up.
Remember Star Trek III?
And I do remember at least once during the coure of TNG when Picard set the auto-destruct sequence to destroy the Enterprise.
Yes, your opinion is that of the minority. A very small minority.
#5 and #24
Same here. In the theater, people went ape-shit when the Vulcan revealed himself.
For me, this would be a milestone in human society. To make contact with other civilizations would validate our very existence, and answer so many questions. It would help define what it means to be a person, and would set the tone for what human beings are to become. It would renew purpose for us as a race and make the world a little smaller, and I dare say, a little more forgiving of each other. To help us realize that being selfish or greedy or apathetic towards our fellow man is senseless and a waste of time that could be spent focusing our energies in a new, brave and daring direction.
This is what that moment in that film means to me. A new beginning.
I like first contact but my only problems with it are that the character moments are minimal and the fight with the borg cube went too fast.
#26
I would remind you, Terran, that some of my operatives are Vulcans. They’e not nice. Not nice at all.
Chaos! Die young and poor!
The Mirror Vulcanista }:-| >
Happy Birthday, #6 cloudsfather! :)
And Happy First Contact Day, Everyone!:)
5. Rainbucket - April 5, 2008
First Contact did exactly the right thing for a Trek movie — it gave us a story that really mattered. It gave the characters so much to respond to.
I remember seeing it in the theaters. When the Vulcan revealed his ears, the audience burst into cheers. A testament to how much Trek’s hopeful future means in our time.
Amen
I’m glad something historic happens on my b-day.
You mean, according to Star Trek RE-history. Remember, originally Zephram Cochrane wasn’t from Earth at all; he was a native of Alpha Centauri. “First Contact” messed up a lot of stuff…typical of the rest of the TNG garbage.
According to the accepted Star Trek history BEFORE “First Contact” was released, after humanity had colonized the Moon and Mars, they sent the first ships out into interstellar space. Their first destination was Alpha Centauri, the closest star to our sun, Sol. Upon arriving years after they left, they discovered a civilization that was VERY much like their own, and together in a joint effort, warp drive was developed. Later on, Zephram Cochrane made some important revisions and upgrades to the concept and is the “Father of Modern Warp Drive,” but he didn’t invent it.
And he wasn’t from Earth, dammit.
Stupid Brannon Braga. He always hated TOS (he’s admitted it on several occasions) and his interpretation of “Star Trek” was nothing more than a blatant attempt to “pave over” The Original Series and have it be forgotten.
I for one absolutely loved First Contact and still do. I loved the villian, powerful dialogue, and I really do think that all the cast got to shine in little moments especially Picard certainly. It was a great movie for a 12-year old boy in 1996 and still ranks as one of my favorites today with the Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country. Unfortunately, it was the last great effort from the TNG crew in my opinion. While I had hoped for one last adventure from the Enterprise-E, I am highly excited for the new Star Trek in May 2009. And who knows what’s in store years after that….as the return of Leonard Nimoy shows with Star Trek XI, you never know! Happy First Contact Day everyone!
My best friend’s little boy’s birthday is today; and he’ll be (at age 59) roughly Zefram Cochrane’s age by that time! First Contact is IMHO the best Next Gen film by far. Even despite the darkness of the film (it is the Trek equivalent of a George Romeo zombie film), there’s that message of hope permeating the whole film. While I LOVE nihilistic sci-fi (Omega Man, Planet of the Apes, Battlestar Galactica, Children of Men), it is nice to take a “breather” and see a brighter future depicted every now and then! May we someday have a nice, REAL space milestone to celebrate on April 5, 2063! “Live Long and Prosper!” “Thanks.”
I really liked the movie in general. In specific, no. I watched it about a month ago and I couldn’t stomach it. …Inappropiate humor at the wrong times, making Cochrane into a drunk, (oh, but also’s he’s so intelligent, too… what a clever twist!) when in the original he was a thoughful heroic type indivdual. And yes, not from Earth.
It just seems a ‘by the numbers’ type of movie. Picard was out of character, he was some kind of cliche action hero. And it really doesn’t do justice to the characters. The drinking thing with Troi wasn’t good.
As I’ve said, my trek universe consists of 79 episodes, 6 movies and 3 next generation episodes. Oh, and one each from ds9 and voyager.
And I’m really hoping the new movie will fit in as well.
32 ;
Kirk’s Line “Zephram Cochrane? Of Alpha Centauri?” could easily have referred to residence, and the fact is, he came across as quite human on screen.
In addition, he talked about planting a tree, a very north-american thing.
He wasn’t a native of Alpha Centauri, but I’d say he eventually retired there, and on a trip either from/to there he encountered the Companion.
First Contact oes not break Canon.
Happy First Contact Day all !!!
Of course we’re supposed to go through World War III first. 600 million dead. “sigh”
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/World_War_3
Hasn’t happened yet but Bush and Cheney still have a few months to go.
#32
That ‘accepted’ history is nowhere to be found except in the head of a few Star Trek fans. There’s nothing on screen to support any of it, other than the TOS episode referencing him as ‘Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri’.
The fact is, the TOS writers made the gaffe, as everything in the episode suggests Cochrane is human, other than that one throwaway line. Many of the novelizations have tried to answer the discrepancy - one excellent one, ‘Federation’, explained that Cochrane was so disastisfied with the then-current Earth gov’t that he lived out his years on AC, and having founded the colony was forever associated with it. But, in the end it’s just a boo-boo, and a rather minor one compared to other errors in TOS, TNG, etc.
As for Braga paving over TOS, well, the fact is if he hated it THAT much, he’d have written a script that simply ignored the events & characters in the first place. Why include Zefram Cochrane when you can simply make the inventor of Warp Drive Bill Hanson of Gamma Signus XI?
Personally, I don’t see why people were so uncomfortable with Cochrane being a drunk, given his original incarnation in ‘Metamporphosis’ made him a racist, or at the very least specist. I think I prefer the drinking.
Specist?
#36. That was my impression, too. Maybe his warp drive discovered (or WILL discover) a cozy little planet out that way. And because he also references the “Judas” goat; clearly an Earth reference. Besides, how could an alien from Alpha Centauri (a trinary star system) have a last name like Cochrane??? I think the drunk/genius thing MAY have been a wink to the late Gene Roddenberry (who ALLEGEDLY liked to drink as well). And I liked the theme of how our heroes are rarely who we THINK they are. Yes, there are missteps (Troi’s drunk scene, etc) but on the whole, the movie exceeds the sum of its parts. And the Vulcan scene still gets me (partially due to James Cromwell’s delightful “earthiness” in that moment) as well as the lush, gorgeous music; Jerry Goldsmith was a wonder! Picard’s quest for revenge WAS a little odd; he seemed to put that issue to bed in “I, Borg.” But maybe the new Borg attack re-opened that old wound for him (they DID violate him in a very personal way; one does not easily dismiss or forget that). So, it DOES more or less fit, and I still love it.
#32—I agree. There was no need to change the origin of the Cochrane character. TOS had already established him as being from Alpha Centauri. They did, however. I suppose they found the Cochrane character’s backstory to be too constrictive and decided to throw it out of the window.
Still, despite an obvious canon violation, it was still the best film the TNG-era ever managed to muster. It is not as if TWOK did not have a canon gaffe or two, but FC is no TWOK.
FC was very formulaic (not to mention, a little too corny at times), and the Captain and crew did indeed behave completely out of character for much of the story, but it was at least entertaining. That is more than what I can say for any other TNG-era movie. The rest of them fall into the category of Trek turds (although only STV:TFF can be called the “Great Trek Turd”).
FC was the best of a poor series of films following the end of TNG’s television run.
Anyone else think that Vulcan was gorgeous??
Don´t forget “Strangers from the sky” and “Federation”. I love them. They really make me ignore FC. Actually I never liked any of the TNG Movies.
Yes, happy birthday (Mirror) first contact :) in 55 years, it will be 3 months before my 100th birthday..if all goes well my son will see it.
Live Long and Prosper,,,,Fisrt Contac Day.
Specieist?
Peace. Live long and prosper.
The Vulcanista }:-|
I think it’s speciecist…
But I don’t think Cochrane was a racist, speciecist or anything along those lines - he was just afraid and unable to cope with the situation. In the end, the Companion makes the ultimate sacrifice for love by sacrificing her immortality, and then Cochrane brings himself in line with her by staying, although he originally wanted to leave with Kirk & his crew, thus sacrificing his “freedom” and finding the completion longed for. Touching, and quite special episode.
#43 - I was thinking of those same books. I’m glad someone else has read them!!
“First Contact” was yet another lame excuse of a TNG movie that screwed with canon; I really don’t understand why people are making a big flap about Abram’s movie, when we’ve had Canon-F**kers show up before (like FC). I’m even more surprised that hardcore TNG fans even like FC in the first place; I mean, I loved the StarGate movie, and I hated how SG-1 not only changed the story (and backstory) entirely, but the characters acted out of character, as well. Isn’t that what Picard and Co. did in FC? I mean, come on…I don’t care how mentally messed up Picard is, he’s not the kind of guy to go all Rambo on some Borg.
As for the comments who are saying “Well, it was obvious that Cochrane wasn’t from Alpha Centauri because he looked and acted human.” I’m guessing that the people using that faulty logic to back up their “Cochrane could have been from Earth all along” argument have never actually WATCHED TOS, because a lot (just about all) of the TOS alien races encountered looked and acted human. Just because Zephram didn’t have cheap latex glued to his forehead doesn’t mean he was a human.
I remember my own positive reaction to the Vulcan at the end of the movie being because the dude looked … like a Vulcan!
TNG had been very slack in their casting of actors to play Vulcans and Romulans. As if ear tips and a black wig were enough to turn anyone into a Vulcanoid.
Scott B. out.
#47—I like that episode as well. I didn’t think there was any need to change who Cochrane was for FC. The character who makes first contact in the film could have been portrayed as someone else other than Zephram Cochrane. They could have left the ward drive factor out of it, and left TOS Cochrane alone. It could have been another significant event on Earth which prompted first contact by attracting the attention of a Vulcan ship, and obviously one which the Borg would be attempting to disrupt. Instead, the TNG film producers erased that figure from official ST canon and reworked him for the benefit of that movie’s plot.
I still think it was better than any of the other junk TNG movies, but the deviation from the Cochrane backstory established in TOS was completely unnecessary.
Oops. “Ward” should have been “warp”…sorry.
I am most definatly gonna get my then 83 year old arse over to Bozeman, Montana to watch the event unfold. That is if Im still alive after 2012 (when the world is supposed to end) or anytime after WWIII (which the major event of the war is supposed to take place in Las Vegas….according to the bio of the Dax’s anyways…).
Now me? I loves the Vulcans. Spock, Vorrick, Tuvok…all totally nummo…*drools* So I’ll be waiting in the wings of that bar waiting to pounce on the first hotty Vulcan I see. *lol*
*looks at her Zefram Cochrane action figure and salutes*
What deviation, exactly?
All they say is “Zephram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri…”
Well, if that’s his last long term residence, then that phrase makes perfect sense. I was born in Idaho and now live in Colorado. I consider myself a Colorado resident, if I was talking to someone in a foreign country and they asked me where in the US I was from, I would say Colorado. If they ask me where I was “born” then I would say Idaho, but otherwise, my point of origin is where my current residence is, not where I plopped out of the womb.
#46
Sorry, Vulcanista, you’re absolutely right - the word we’re talking about is specieist.
That scene always reminded me of a weird combo of the final scenes of E.T. and THE LAST STARFIGHTER…!
And FIRST CONTACT is the only TNG flick that looks and feels like a “real” movie, as opposed to the inert GENERATIONS, INSURRECTION and NEMESIS (God, what boring titles…)
#53—I’ll admit I haven’t seen the episode in years, but I always accepted that he was a native of Alpha Centauri, and the invention of warp drive was a collaborative effort between the people of Earth and the people of AC. Maybe I’ll watch it again while my wife is at work tomorrow. It may very well chnage my opinion of FC’s adherence to established canon, but not my opinion of the TNG-era films in general.
Does anyone remember the old Paramount licensed FASA RPG? I liked their explanation. The people of Alpha Centauri were the descendants of ancient humans, taken there by the Preservers around the time of the height of the Roman Empire, and that is why they were genetically, and to a significantly smaller degree, culturally, similar to Terrans.
that was a great moment… :)
Star Trek First Contact is a brilliant movie!
I can not and will not disagree with what #59 said,… the force is to strong in that one :)
And First Contact is my favorite TNG movie.
60th??!!1
First Contact was great, Insurrection was good and regardless of the errors in Nemesis it was great too. Generations however sucked! The story sucked, but, it was nice to see K and P on stage together w/o that the movie would have tanked. These TNG movies and Tos movies were good and people liked to go see them, because, they like to see the familiar faces from the t.v. shows and characters and we grew to love how they played them ex. Kelley as Mccoy or Spiner as Data. That is the big problem about the new trek movie, yes, we have the characters but, we do not have the people that we know and love, playing them (ex. Nimoy).
38, well said as always. 53, excellent point about long-term residence being the location you site as where you’re from as opposed to the place where you were born.
38, I would point out that people assumed what the 22nd century would look like and when ENT didn’t meet the preconceptions people had, they claimed that it violated “canon.”
I would not argue that FIRST CONTACT was the best TNG films but I would argue that it was the only good one. They were all good movies though I would agree that GENERATIONS felt more like a TV episode than a movie. Actually it felt more like a Series Finale than “All Good Things…” did. INSURRECTION was clearly a Star Trek film with its message about forced relocation and NEMESIS was about family, specifically family changes (which could have been better conveyed if Director Baird had kept the Data/Picard scene in Picard’s quarters in the film) and NEM had many great moments. The battle scene wasn’t bad either. Finally the ENT-E had all around phaser coverage (like every other FED ship) and had the weapons it should of had from day one.
In any case this discussion digresses. The point is that today is First Contact Day (or supposedly will be) and that ST: First Contact clearly established one of the most pivotal moments in Star Trek history. I’m busy today but if I have time I will see the film again as I have it on DVD.
61, well said, for the most part. I wouldn’t say that Generations sucked; I would say that it was the weakest of the TNG films and it felt more like a series finale than a film, but I wouldn’t say that it “sucked.” I agree with everything else you said on the TNG films though. As for the new film, we’ll see if what you discussed is a problem in May 2009.
The name Zefram (Zephrem) Cochrane is a very human name. He looks human, and is a founder of warp drive. Its not unreasonable to think that he joined a human colony at Alpha Centuri (or, IF a civilization does exist there, was adopted by it), and became Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centuri. The fact they say of “Alpha Centuri”, however, lends further weight to the idea that its really a human colony.
But he’s not an extraterrestrial.
Anyway, this is not the element of continuity that First Contact fudged up.
Live long and prosper?
If it’s first contact, how did he know English?
First contact was the best of the Next Generation movies, i found the rest of tat series of movies to be underwhelming. #64 i agree Zephram Cochrane could have become a citizen of Alpha Centuiri so there is not really a problem.
I don’t agree with the people making the claim that “Zephram Cochrane moved to Alpha Centauri, and since he lived there long enough he was identified with that home.” Such logic might work on a smaller scale (say, moving to another city or state), but not on a larger scale (like countries or planets).
If I moved to France, even if I lived there for a long time, I don’t think they’d be referring to me as “TOS Purist of France.” No, I’d still be pretty damned American, considered and identified as such.
Besides, by the time that Kirk and Co. found Cochrane, he had been away from his alleged “second home” of Alpha Centauri too long for it to be considered his strongest residence to be identified by. They’d just default to his original location.
Come on, people, EVERYONE thought that Zephram Cochrane was from Alpha Centauri before “First Contact” was released. It’s only NOW that people are trying to come up with all sorts of half-assed excuses for him being from Earth, instead of just accepting that it’s an intentional Canon-Buster, courtesy of Brannon Braga (the genius who brought us such masterpieces as “Enterprise”…I’m being sarcastic, if you can’t tell) and going with the ORIGINAL origin for Zephram Cochrane, which was freaking Alpha Centauri. I really don’t see what’s so difficult about that…
As far as I’m concerned, April 5th isn’t “First Contact Day.” I don’t consider FC to be canon, so I really don’t know when, in the Star Trek universe, humanity made contact with an alien race (the Alpha Centauri, according to prevailing fan beliefs that lasted for more than a few decades until FC was unfortunately filmed). There’s nothing special about April 5th, other than the fact that I have to finish my college math homework like, right now, or I’m screwed.
So yeah…I’m going to get back to that. Peace out!
I agree with my Mirror countryman #22, we must rise up against the Vulcan invaders, for Terra, for Ireland (Mirror) and for the Empire!
TOS Purist
do you really need to turn every thread into another TOS v TNG era argument and silly canon debate?
I actually have the answer to that question…no you do not
Tony - to clarify, I’m NOT making a TOS v TNG era argument.
I am, however, mentioning the alternate (otherwise known as the ORIGINAL) canon, in the wake of it being completely and totally ignored by everyone everywhere. I just get so tired of it sometimes…
Well said 69, well said.
70, time has passed TOS and TOS got many of their own ‘canon’ wrong. For instance “the hardest substance known to our science” changed practically every week. As for time passing TOS an example would be the Eugenics Wars. They can’t possibly have happened in 1996 if we believe Star Trek is our future (which is what it’s supposed to be) and if it did occur in 1996, it certainly couldn’t be “the last world war on Earth” as Spock claimed. I could go on but I won’t. The point is ‘canon’ has been updated by the TNG era, some for good reason (i.e. Romulan warp drives in Earth-Romulan War) and some not. In my opinion, the TNG era is by far the best era (TNG, DS9, VOY) and I don’t think it really matters where Zephram Cochran is from. He is a pivotal part of Earth’s history and pivotal in making First Contact with the Vulcans. Everyone knows his name. In fact, his role in history was defined by TNG not TOS and had it been only for that TOS episode Zephram Cochran would be a pretty forgettable character. The fact that every Star Trek fan knows his name instead of “that guy from ‘Metamorphosis’” is thanks to TNG.
I can identify with you on college homework, I’ve got plenty to do myself.
65: He knew english cuz the Vulcans have been watching us since the 1940’s and are the reasons behind all the UFO sightings (like the one over Mt. Rainier) that involve triangular ships. Just read “Strangers From The Sky” or “Federation” (The best Zefram Cochrane biography around).
I will be 5 days from my 90th birthday on First Contact Day. Here’s to our future and my favorite Trek film!
*El Ghost Host*
Ah, the smiling Vulcan.. :) gotta love it!
This debate prompted me to watch “Metamorphisis” again for the first time in years. I have to admit that I have no idea where I (or anyone else) ever got the notion that ZC was anything but human. All of the dialogue in the episode, as well as McCoy’s tricorder readings suggest nothing else. It is indeed clear that he was a human from Earth who happened to live on Alpha Centauri later in life.
I still believe that FC is the only TNG-era film that was worth repeat viewing. Despite being too formulaic and depicting the captain and crew somewhat out of character, it was at least entertaining…I would rank it 6th among all Star Trek films, STV: TFF being the only one of the original films it tops, IMO, although I rank it close to TUC. No way it even comes close to the first 4 films.
#48. I’m reading ‘federation’ at the moment, It’s quite good and I highly recomend it
Decloaking . . .
Even though recent debate here on TrekMovie.com has given me a renewed interest and appreciation of TWOK, I still think First Contact is the best Trek film.
True, Bragga did rewrite Trek History, but TOS history was disjointed, uncompiled when written, and not envisioned to become a “Canon”. It was a show written on the fly with no cash and little concept of a self-history.
Thus all the inconsistancies over the years of the different shows.
All in all. First Contact was an outstanding exploration of Trek Lore, and IMO one of the greatest Science Fiction films of all time.
Recloaking.
There is no possible way that first contact could say in cinch with the original time line for Trek obvious reasons, and you know what, its unimportant. First Contact was very good scifi film. It was huge leap over Generations which i found to a very wanting film. They took the Borg and they really ramped them up, If you look at them you see nods to past films, Like Alien, Hellraiser and of the Terminator movies. And I loved the whole Borg Queen concept, Alice Krige was both seductive and Horrifying at the same time, yeah it doesnt quite fit into the context of the episode Best of Both worlds but really who cares, The whole cast shone in thsi film in a way that they never did in the series. Especially Picard and his quest for vengence a la Captain Ahab and theconfrontation with Lilly Sloan that brought him back to his senses. James Cromwell Zephram Cochran(from Earth or Alpha centuir It really doesn’t matter)was wonderful as the flawed but always entertaining inventor. And of course Riker to Laforge “You told him about the Statue?” A fun film and please no puritsor cannon issues her It’s still Star trek after all.
FC was just plain shit, and unfortunately was the template for all the movies following…..and now we know why they sucked as well. For all it’s many, many, many faults, Gen is the only TNG movie to feature the same crew from the series.
I mean, I was laughing when Picard, the man who was bitch slapped and had to drag a fat Captain Kirk out of the nexus to kick some scrawny guys ass is all of a sudden an action hero. The Vulcan ending? Who didn’t see that coming? The lameness of having our first warp flight coincide with first contact? Groan. The whole “look, we have rock and role in a Trek movie, we’re cool now” thing? Stupid. The forced humour, the idiotic queen, the no longer spooky borgification process…..It’s like a never ending list of suck.
#78 - Commodore Lurker:
“…but TOS history was disjointed, uncompiled when written, and not envisioned to become a “Canon”. It was a show written on the fly with no cash and little concept of a self-history.”
I really hate it when people say that, because it is COMPLETELY not true and is nothing more than a big billboard which proclaims, albeit unknowingly, that “I”ve never actually WATCHED TOS besides the episode that comes on SciFi Channel once every few years!”
My advice (not that it matters): WATCH THE SHOW. HEAR the references to the events of episodes past. SEE recurring characters, from Pike to Mudd to background crewmen like DeSalle. WATCH McCoy react more to the stuffed Salt Vampire in Trelane’s castle more than the other members of the landing party, while music from “The Man Trap” is heard.
I could go on, but now I have to finish my Spanish composition. I believe my point is made…TOS wasn’t the dumb show everyone seems to think it is.
It’s strange to think that I’ll be 91 when that happens–my oldest son will be nearing retirement. Hopefully, I’ll still be drawing breath, looking for Vulcans.
P.S. There’s noting wrong with that “rockabilly crap.” The song was Oobie Doobie by Roy Orbison–his first hit, in fact. The only man Elvis would never follow on stage, and he even said so.
#90 Lensmen I agree that Generation and all of the the films subsequent tto first contact were crap. But First contact was actually a decent film, well written and well act, was it perfect? No but is still a good film.
#81 Purist to expect a film like First contact and any subsequent film adhere to a Cannon written in the 1960’s really makes no sense.
Decloaking . . .
81. The Purolator.
I guess you aren’t allowed to stay up late enough to read my posts, so let me fill you in.
1) I saw the Original broadcast of “The Man Trap” in 1966.
2) I saw every episode of TOS 400 times UNEDITED in full and could recite every line of dialog of every episode verbatium, before you were born.
3) I attended the very first Boston ST Con in 1976, where I met face-to-face and talked to Harlen Ellison, James Doohan, Nichelle Nichols, and Walter Koenig.
4) I met face to face and talked to Gene Roddenberry.
5) I am of that generation that fought to give rebirth to Trek when Trek was dead and buried before TMP — hence Commodore.
6) All those bits of trivia in props and music,etc, that you cite resulted from a lack of production money and time. How do I know this?
Because GENE RODDENBERRY told me so!
7) Gene Roddenberry and Gene L. Coon went to work everyday unsure as to how they were going to pull off that days production demands. How do I know that? Because GENE RODDENBERRY told me so!
8) They never had time to piece together this “Canon” we speak of today until they were well into Next Gen. How do I know this? Because GENE RODDENBERRY told me so! THE MAN himself said the show was shot on the fly.
9) I LOVE TOS as much as you do, especially the eps that build on previous eps.
10) I hope you can someday abandon this teen angst about which Trek Series was superior to anothern Trek series. LOVE THEM ALL IN THEIR INFINITE DIVERSITY, for better or worse. Everytime I pop in a Next Gen, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, or Movie DVD — I know that I and millions of my fellow Trekkers/Trekkies helped make it all so.
11) I haven’t watched “TV”, Sci-Fi or any other channel for six years.
12) I finished my Spanish composition 30 years ago.
13) A helpful hint in life: Know who you’re talking to BEFORE you shoot off your mouth. It’ll save you alot of hassle.
14) Learn to respect others opinions and revel in the debate without getting yur nickers tied up in knots.
Recloaking.
Dammit… it’s CANON. If you add gunpowder to it and fire it from a pirate ship (not an Orion) then add an N…
87 Xai.
Thank you Xai, and I still love your name.
P.S. You forgot “Jim” as in “Dammit Jim, I’m a Doctor not a Cannon on deck.”
Commodore
I salute you. Well-said.
89 Xai.
I bow to your wisdom.
#90 Commodore
Where’d you meet Gene?
oh and Commodore… #87 obviously was not directed at you.
91 Xai.
Bit of a long story. But, in short when i was attending NC State Univ. he came to do a series of lectures about a year after TWOK was released. I flung open some double doors and literally, I mean literally bumped into him. He was a classic gentle giant. I’m trying to get a Science Fiction novel that I’ve written published right now that describes the encounter in full detail during a climatic scene in the story.
92 Xai. I figured that out, no offense taken. And thanks for asking about Gene. I’ve never understood how Trekkers/Trekkies hate a particular series of Trek while loving another so defensively? It baffles me. I’m a love’em all kind of guy (Trek that is).
94. Commodore Lurker - April 5, 2008
I like all Trek as well… viewing it as one large universe. Some stories are better than others, regardless the series. I’d take any Trek over most TV these days…just watched the “mirror” shows from ENT last night… what fun!
I thought it ironic that it ended with “Empress Hoshi”
Good luck with the book… slip “Xai” in there somewhere..k? You have my permission! LOL
RE: TOS vs. TNG
Agreed, it really doesn’t make any sense to have arguments about which show‘s better. This is a huge universe, space for all sorts of views. But TOS started it all, and it became the most iconic show. So, all subsequent shows and films should at least try to keep with established events shown in TOS when referencing them, imo. It’s a matter of respect and awareness.
I think us obsessed TOS lovers just feel that TOS is a wonderful and conclusive “package” despite its discrepancies. True, TOS never was drawn up as a canon show like TNG, but that doesn’t mean that you can just ignore events that happened in TOS. TOS showed us great character development and I think GR and the writers involved took great pains to configure the characters and events shown as coherently as possible, despite the lack of money and time resources. The series’ outlasting success still proves them right. Each show has its blunders, but TOS will always be the first family, and that means a lot - and it’s definitely canon.;-)
#76
Thank you! I’ve seen the episode over and over again, and I NEVER understood why anyone was under the impression he was from another world. Every piece of dialogue and interaction indicates the man is HUMAN, aside from that one line.
As for TOS having numerous human-like species and not being addicted to latex in the same way later shows were, I agree. However, where TOS was not addicted to latex, they were certainly addicted to facepaint. There are exceptions, but in almost every instance they make considerable effort to remind you the characters are alien. No such attempt is made in ‘Metmorphosis’, and McCoy’s tricorder comment seems to confirm the opposite. So again, I say Cochrane is human. That was the impression I was under when I first saw the episode as a kid, and I never heard any other fan say he wasn’t, either.
#81
I think you’re taking what Lurker said far too personally. If you take a fair look at the show, it does have numerous inconsistencies (some larger than others). The supposed year it took place varied from 200 years in the future to nearly 800, depending on the episode. Warp Factors and maximum limits were all over the place. Etc., etc. However, that does not make the show dumb (well, ‘The Way to Eden’ or ‘Spock’s Brain’ admittedly stray too close to that description for comfort). It was clearly an intelligent show written to inspire & provoke discussion among its viewers, even if the writers & producers couldn’t always keep every fact straight. I still admire the times when they managed to get it right.
Also, #39 & 54 - ‘Specist’ is an acceptable derivation of Speciesism, I just forgot to capitalize the S. Silly me! :)
As I used to say in the Star trek.com Messages boards. to all the Canonista’s out there. “It is just fiction.” While I love Star Trek, the so called history never happened. otherwise there would have been a Ugenics War in the Late 1990’s It Never happened, the world is not Star Trek Canon, OMG!! are all you Canonists Going to Jump all over me now, Maybe you should blame God for not following Roddenberry’s Canon.
I have loved Star Trek since I was 4, I used to watch it with my father when it first Aired, the first model I remember building was a A Star Ship Enterprise, I can probably quote lines from TOS better then most of you, so I know of what I speak. Please get a life.
sean, sorry if you got the impression I was trying to “correct” your spelling. Never meant to! I was just curious about the word myself.
Get a life Iowagirl.
Happy First Contact Day
#86 Commodore Lurker Tour de Force
Get a line Battletrek. :D
#100… don’t try to start another war…k?
I’ll be 102!! gump!!
Happy First Contact Day Everyone!
Decloaking . . .
95. Xai loves the whole Trek-verse - April 5, 2008
“I thought it ironic that it ended with “Empress Hoshi”
I love “In the Mirror, Darkly” (speaking of eps that build on previous eps), and the whole 4th season of ENT. I still think that a Mirror Movie based on the rise and fall of Empress Hoshi would be amazing. Linda Park was breathtaking in that ep. I was glad to see she finally got the opportunity to show her chops.
“Good luck with the book… slip “Xai” in there somewhere..k? You have my permission! LOL”
Funny you should mention that XIA, and thanks for the permission. Remember a few weeks ago when I asked you how to pronounce Xia, that’s because I have been looking for a good name for the newly crowned Empress of China in the third and fourth novel in the series. I’m still giggling that you mentioned Empress Sato. You’re already in!
Recloaking.
#25 Newman- After reading some of the posts, it seems I’m not in so small a minority after all in thinking it was overrated!
Decloaking. . .
108. You are not in that small of a minority, but I still loved FC. I’m astonished at the rift between TOS fans / TNG fans / DS9-VGR fans/ ENT fans and the various Movie fans. To me it’s all one giant Trek. Even STV FF (the great trek turd) still has some of my all time fav Trek moments.
Revel in the debate, that’s where the fun and humor is.
Recloaking.
#109 Commodore Lurker I think the divide on trek can be summed up as follows
Cannons to the right of us, Cannons to the left of Us
Cannons in front of us
That kind sums things up nicely I think.
Decloaking . . .
110. Garovorkin.
Agreed! And throw a few Canons along the Z-axis as well.
Thanks for the “Tour de Force” support.
Did you see your Promotion Orders from about a week ago?
I’ve always liked your name as well.
I cracks me up when one of the kids gets into an arguement with you, they obviously don’t recognize the depth and breath of your Sci-Fi knowledge.
Recloaking.
#32
It’s pathetic to see Purist defend every single letter of TOS “canon” like the most extreme flat-earth, creationist, evangelical on earth; and then proceed to describe a complete fabrication as being accepted canon. All this is BS………….
“According to the accepted Star Trek history BEFORE “First Contact” was released, after humanity had colonized the Moon and Mars, they sent the first ships out into interstellar space. Their first destination was Alpha Centauri, the closest star to our sun, Sol. Upon arriving years after they left, they discovered a civilization that was VERY much like their own, and together in a joint effort, warp drive was developed. Later on, Zephram Cochrane made some important revisions and upgrades to the concept and is the “Father of Modern Warp Drive,” but he didn’t invent it.
And he wasn’t from Earth, dammit.”
This is all imaginary garbage generated in Purist’s fevered bowels. None of it was ever mentioned in the the original series telecasts. The only known fact about Cochrane’s residence is that at some point in his life he lived on AC.
Also, like Lurker, I am old enough to have seen all of the TOS episodes many times over, both as original broadcasts and many times in syndication since the 60’s.
Actually…
the warp drive all came about because of Flint. He worked quietly behind the scenes getting Cochrane what he needed… urging him on…
or was it Gary Seven…
or the lost Vulcan at Carbon Creek, Mestral…
or the people at Area 51 that were inspired by Quark’s visit…
or….
“Fire the Canons, Matey!”
Glenn Corbett is Cochran. The other guy (while an OK actor) is not.
I thought it was stupid to make Cochran a drunken boob in First Contact. If you are going to have a previously portrayed character, try to have some semblance of continuity or don’t use that character.
#99
Not at all! I just wanted to be clear, and also correct myself, as the word should have the capital S at the start.
You know, you and I are often on opposite shores when it comes to our views of Trek, but I would never take offense at anything you said. I really enjoy coming here and reading all the different opinions, as well as sharing my own. Some of the other boys & girls in here need to lighten up! :)
Decloaking . . .
# 112. cugel
We all might have “fevered bowels” if we were still 14, never seen a girl naked ( if that’s what one likes) and your mommy just made you log off of TrekMovie.com to do your home work.
I’m trying to be tolerant of the younger Trekkies. It’s astounding how much of this so called “Canon” is self fantasized by the adherents to same, isn’t it.
We “Old Ones” just have to keep the kids in line sometimes.
Thanks for your support.
Recloaking.
Xai. See # 107, a little surprise there for you.
114. Stanky
You do realize that that “ok other guy” is an Oscar Winner for Best Supporting Actor, before FC and has appeared in several eps of Next Gen & DS9.
#111 Comodore Lurker yes I saw the Promotion orders comment most definity thanks. Your scif knowledge is equally impressive probably more more so then mine .These knock down drag out arguments I get into are fun, I like to rattle peoples cages and kind make them think about things a little. This goes both ways because the younger folk give me food for though on sci fi issues as well. Though these little exchanges ive learned quite a few thing I didn’t know about trek. The guys on the site t who have been critiquing the remastering of of the show have really impressed me with their knowlege of how it could been improved upon. They have all got such fantastic ideas. this in one category in which I can humbly admit that im way out my depth. by the way did you see my comment with regard to Jack London’s Fantasy Novel The Star Rover, i think you would like it. Ive introduced about 1000 people to it.
109, excellent points. I agree with you and I love all of Star Trek. I also tend to defend any Trek that’s attacked because I love all of Trek so much. My post about “time passing TOS” was in reference to why certain things were changed in new shows, i.e. the Romulans having warp drive during the time of the Earth-Romulan War despite Spock saying in TOS “their power is simple impulse.” It makes sense to change that because you can’t fight an interstellar war without warp drive so that comment from TOS never made sense. With that said, “Balance of Terror” was still an excellent episode that I’d put up against practically any episode of any Trek. (My comments about the date of the Eugenics Wars can be found in previous posts) TOS was a great show (I’ve got the entire series on DVD) and I love all of Star Trek - All the TV shows and all of the Movies. Sure I like some more than other (TNG being my favorite series) and (First Contact being my favorite movie) but I love them all. You’re also right about TFF having many great moments; in fact the whole ‘crew on shore leave’ part was excellent and well written. My love for Star Trek is why my screen name is “LoyalStarTrekFan.” It is meant as a message - I love all of Trek and think that every incarnation of it was excellent and worthy of the name Star Trek. Sure I like the 24th Century the best (TNG/DS9/VOY) but I like all of the Trek eras and they were all worthy of the name STAR TREK! Congratulations of meeting Gene Roddenberry.
119, those arguments can be fun and I also enjoy making people think. I also appreciate your comment about me “certainly know your Trek” you made in the comment section of the story about Ronald D. Moore claiming that Trek had “too much canon.” It’s my favorite show of all time. It easily defeats B5, Stargate, BSG, or anything else I’ve ever seen. Now shows like ‘NCIS’, ‘JAG’, ‘The Unit’, etc. are a completely different genre but I’ve never gotten as attached to these excellent shows as I have to STAR TREK. I would like to point out that the crime dramas (CSI’s and LAW & ORDER’s) are horribly inaccurate. It’s almost comedy hour to see how inaccurate they are.
re:” 118. Commodore Lurker - April 6, 2008
114. Stanky-You do realize that that “ok other guy” is an Oscar Winner for Best Supporting Actor…”
He did a fine job as Stretch Cunningham in All in the Family.
But that has nothing to do with the way the character was ‘reimagined’ for this movie. I don’t care if he was played by Cromwell or Brando or Nicholson or whoever. Portraying him as a drunken coward was ridiculous.
117. Commodore Lurker - April 6, 2008
Xai. See # 107, a little surprise there for you.
Thanks bud… even if spelled slightly different and female… I’ll take it. When do you publish? I’ll be buying a copy to hopefully get your signature on. We’ll make arraingements … and thanks!
The FC Cochrane was a vast improvement over the TOS version. I found Corbett wooden and lacking a depth of character. The FC Cochrane at least had interesting human flaws.
re:124
They could just have well changed Cochran into a Sleestak.
re #125 Or you could recognize that sometimes things change for the better
re:126
Or I could recognize that that is rarely true any more.
I’m sure it would be much easier to just accept everything that comes down the pike, but I am reasonably happy with my discriminating tastes. :)
#126 if that were only true about tis world we live in.
One thing that struck me about First contact was what21 century earh was like 10 years after the war and I asked myself is this a realistic view of how the wold would look 10 years after fighting world war 3? the answer is both yes and no. they stated in the movie that 600,000,000 million people lost their live in the conflict, well from initial bombardment that might a reasonable fatality rate, but afterwards there would be more deaths from radiation,disease and the probable Nuclear winter that would result from bombs and the burning cities, chemical plants oil refineries. then there would be run off of all these poisons into the oceans which would destroy the plankton, which would cause mass die off in the oceans, further reducing the means of acquiring food, thus you have mass starvation further reducing the surviving population to a fraction of its prewar numbers. There would little in the way of High tech left, no factories and certainly no resources to produce them. There would also be no Infrastructure left to support them high tech either. The radiatio and high incidence of lethal mutation would further reduce the viability of the human race to carry itself on. think by the time 2063 rolled around if anyone even cared about the date the, society under the best case scenario would be either at medieval level, or Stone age and on its way out. In other words Extinction. Plus geologically all those bombs would probably have an effect on plate tectonics and maybe even severly efffect the spin of the earth. No I don’t think the future at that point would be so bright or shiny as some believe. This simply my projection of what that war would have resulted in and I could be wrong. WW3 may never even Happen god forbid that it did.
#127, 128
I remind you both I said “sometimes”, and Stanky… I doubt the world that you personally can control has changed much.
No one can accept all change or should, but there IS positive change in the world every day… if you choose to see it.
# 130 Xai look at whats happening in the world , do you see it getting better? because I don’t. Unless things change dramatically I can’t see any light at the end of this tunnel. We seem to have this beliefor conceit that our civilization is immune to failure, because we have all of this technology we are safe, but the truth is we are not.. The greenhouse effect is pussing us past the tipping pont into irreversible climatic shifts, Earth and Nature could turn on us , and insome case with emerging and resistant diseases it already has. Xia no malice is intended by this sttement, its merely an observation as was my statement about what fthe apocalypitci world of 2063 would be like. The future would bright or couser that would only be for initial detonation of the first nuclear bombs
Whenever the day comes that we finally meet another intelligence, I pray that the men and women involved bring their own “brains” with them. Having a misunderstanding with another race that we share no traits with, no communication with, could end in disaster. We aren’t as grown up socially or culturally as we like to believe.
I like to think we are slowly educating and “immunizing” ourselves to the possibility of ET life and meeting them someday through shows like Trek, E.T. and others. Getting the general human populace used to the thought that there are other intelligences out there. And trying to talk to them…not shoot them just because they are different.
re: 130 Xaimeister…makin’ copieees
“I doubt the world that you personally can control has changed much.”
Luckily, all the things that are out of my control are in SUCH good hands now.
#132 Xai
Author James Branch Caball once said hat an optimist is a person that believes we live in the best of all possible worlds and a pessimist fears that this is true.
I hope we can somehow see the problems and fix them before its to late for any of us. we need to learn to keep our own house in order first before we do anything else so that we can make our world the bset of all possible place for real. But the trouble with us is that we are to jaded to see anything at this point.
131. Garovorkin - April 6, 2008
“# 130 Xai look at whats happening in the world , do you see it getting better?”
Yes, I do… as I said… you have to look. Not everything is rosy… but…
My daughter is getting married to a good man this Friday night. My father, in his 70’s quit smoking and feels great, My son will soon be discovering part of his own world in a trip to Britain and then off the school to discover the other worlds as an astronomer. My wife recovered from a surgery last fall… My neighbors had a baby
While global warming seems to happening… it’s not as bad as we hear from the “cry-wolf” mainstream media. The oceans are getting colder the past 10 years. The high gas prices are forcing us to become more “green” in all that we do. People are using recycling at a record pace. More hybrids and high M.P.G. cars are being built and sold. (Ask a Toyota dealer…I have one as a client… they barely keep up). Our children are looking at us, asking us to lead, and in some ways… they are the ones leading. My son taught us to conserve, reuse and recycle.
A small area city near me is investing in their own hydro-electric dam (small scale) as a clean and perpetual energy source. The first oli refinery in the USA may be built near here and they are promising jobs, new growth to this economy and a green-aware plant.
After years of dictatorship-rule, Cuba is slowly letting their people have more freedoms. Famine is being slowly averted one field and water-well at a time in Africa due primarily to North American churches and mission work. Those same churches continue to help the gulf-coast recover from Katrina damage. Technology and experience is making us better at forecasting severe storms every year before they endanger people and property…I know this because I am a volunteer severe weather spotter. I train every year (next class Tuesday) and I see the gains.
The human genome project is regularly showing us the causes to many diseases…which lead to prevention and treatment. People are living longer.
No.. it’s not all roses, nor is it all gloom…it’s business as normal in the human world. We do the best we can.
should have said “The first oli refinery built in the past 25 years in the USA may be built near here and they are promising jobs, new growth to this economy and a green-aware plant.
#136 Xai on the temperature of ocean getting colder “how could that be? I am not an expert on climate but from what I do know the ocean water is a poor reflector of solar heat while the ice sheets which the best reflectors of heat are are melting away . The world should in theory be getting warmer.
Only reporting what I’ve seen and heard.
To those who did not like the ‘drunken Cochrane’, I understand. But from a writing standpoint, it gave the character an arc; a point to develop from/toward. And I still think it was meant as a “cloaked” nod to Roddenberry himself; who had a reputation for indulgences. And to those on these boards who are reading or have read “Federation,” I recommend e-baying for a copy of the audio book. It has a very entertaining vocal performance from the late, great Mark Lenard (Sarek himself; as well as the Romulan commander, Klingon captain, etc…). Even though it is an abridged version of the book (which I liken as an “alternate history” of First Contact; neither better nor worse), it’s nice to listen to in the car or on headphones. Also loved the Admiral Quarla Kobregnie character (taking her name from the “Soldier” in Harlan Ellison’s Outer Limits story); continuing the Trek tradition of crazy superior officers! To me, First Contact and Federation are apples and oranges; different takes on the Cochrane story, BOTH are a lot of fun.
#135 Xai
it’s a pleasure to see you open up and share some details about your life and experiences.
I’ve always enjoyed your posts and it’s nice to read some background regarding the man behind the comments. Bravo!
Why thanks, Harry. I can honestly say your own posts here ..are like no one else’s. ;-)
I’ll take that as a compliment…………yeah, that’s it, a compliment!!
#72
“As for time passing TOS an example would be the Eugenics Wars. They can’t possibly have happened in 1996 if we believe Star Trek is our future (which is what it’s supposed to be) and if it did occur in 1996, it certainly couldn’t be “the last world war on Earth” as Spock claimed.”
Star Trek is not our future. It never was and never will be. It doesn’t matter if it’s “supposed” to be….it isn’t.
And as Star Trek is not our world, it has it’s own fictional history, and in that history there was a war in the 90’s. This idea that because something in the real world didn’t match a pretend world, it didn’t happen in the pretend world is ridiculous. These guys weren’t some kind of psychohistorians nor were they even trying to be.
#90
“Lensmen I agree that Generation and all of the the films subsequent tto first contact were crap. But First contact was actually a decent film, well written and well act, was it perfect? No but is still a good film.”
We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on that last point.
Pretty much agree with your thinking on #129. Also, had the humans survived, and Cochrane just conveniently “discovered” warp drive at the same time as some aliens passing by (who also had warp drive) most likely they’d have thought that Cochrane was given the warp drive and being mind controlled as a puppet. At any rate, even if not that, there’s no way in hell that Cochrane would be praised as anybody in the FC timeline because he didn’t invent warp drive.
Imagine “inventing” the plane, and on the day you’re testing it, some guys who’re more advanced fly a modern jet in. Who do you think history is going to mention? Not the guy with the primitive plane who CLEARLY didn’t invent the thing. Ditto for Cochrane.
#112
“This is all imaginary garbage generated in Purist’s fevered bowels. None of it was ever mentioned in the the original series telecasts. The only known fact about Cochrane’s residence is that at some point in his life he lived on AC.”
and
#76
“I have to admit that I have no idea where I (or anyone else) ever got the notion that ZC was anything but human.”
Prolly because these people, like myself, own a copy of the Paramount / Roddenbery authorized and published book “Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology” which clearly states that Cochrane is from AC. IIRC the book was used as the basis of FASA historical material as well. This book was printed at around the time of TMP and there was nothing on screen that contradicted it until FC.
#36
“he (Cochrane) came across as quite human on screen.”
Like the people on the Roman planet, the Nazi planet, the gangster planet, the people on Eminiar, Argelius, and they were all alien races. So it’s no stretch to think of the ACians being any different. Whatever theory or explanation you use to justify this can be applied here.
#38
“or at the very least specist.”
The irony here being that you’d prolly react the exact same way if confronted with the reality of such a creature. >;)
#72
“had it been only for that TOS episode Zephram Cochran would be a pretty forgettable character. The fact that every Star Trek fan knows his name instead of “that guy from ‘Metamorphosis’” is thanks to TNG.”
Dude, you are high. Especially with that second line. EVERY Trek fan I’ve known for the last 35 years, has known who Cochrane was. You do know that he was name dropped in the TNG ep with the Soliton Wave right? And in order for that kind of name drop to work, people have to be familiar with it? And it’s not like he wasn’t mentioned in other works like the aformentioned Chronology, FASA works, various Trek novels, etc.
#40
“Besides, how could an alien from Alpha Centauri (a trinary star system) have a last name like Cochrane???”
Pretty much the same way that “Vulcans” are called “Vulcans” or “Romulans” are called “Romulans”.
#38
“Many of the novelizations have tried to answer the discrepancy - one excellent one, ‘Federation’, explained that Cochrane was so disastisfied with the then-current Earth gov’t that he lived out his years on AC, and having founded the colony was forever associated with it.”
Except there’s nothing on screen to suggest that. ALL that’s established is that Cochrane invented warp drive. And it doesn’t matter if Cochrane went to live on another planet, historical people are most ALWAYS associated with the location of the event that got them into the history books in the first place. See the Wright Brothers and Davey Crockett.
Most people don’t know or care about much about where historical figures begin or end, only that part for which they are famous. So it’s not likely that Kirk would’ve said “of Alpha Centauri” since the event that put him in the books took place on Earth. Kirk would’ve no more said “of Alpha Centauri” than he would’ve said “Abraham Lincoln of Earth”. There was no need to add that.
As for something Cochrane may or may not done on AC, well you can’t cite that since you’ve already dismissed contrary arguments with the line “nothing to support it appeared on screen”. You can’t have it both ways.
The bottom line is that the line was said. Paramount and Roddenberry authorized a book that very clearly shows Cochrane from AC and that that fact was later altered for the movie FC for no really good reason.
And for all you lovers of the original series, this is a recently posted comment by John Byrne of the Romulans one shot:
“Just a heads up to let you all know there are now four new TOS era projects in my personal pipeline. Some hammering out to do, of course, but Paramount has approved three of them, and the fourth seems most unlikely to cause any problems.”
Freakin sweet!!
Sweet god I had no idea my previous post was that long!
Man, the freakin Humanity!!!!
The Lensman… as you said…it’s all pretend. But keep in mind the basic thought on Trek canon is that it appears on screen and produced by Paramount. (The animated seem to be the exception.)
The books produced aren’t considered canon by more than a few, even though each book is blessed by Paramount.
Either way… does it matter?
#135 Xai; Couldn’t have said it more eloquently myself. Bad news just gets more press! My cousin works for NASA and part of the global warming condition is that as the ice caps melt, the oceans WILL cool down; so on that point, there is scientific evidence to back up your claim. Unfortunately, the cooling of oceans is a side effect of the problem, not a solution. However, global warming is NOT at an irrevocable stage at this point; there is still time to work the problem. And I agree with you that recycling and alternate power research (esp. in the private sector) is slowly catching on. And it seems some of the younger people are being taught recycling almost as a second nature these days! We are in a mess, for sure. But humanity has been in dire situations throughout its rough history; but with courage and perseverance, we can prevail…if we choose to. I, or we, may not live to see “First Contact Day”, but here’s hoping your future grandkids will! Xai, live long and prosper. Nice post!
thanks sebastian
The Lensman… almost forgot… you used a word in your post
“prolly”
In the frame of the sentence I think you meant “probably”..yes?
Prolly, is not a word that I can find.
being helpful, not a critique…
When I read the topic headline, I read not “Happy First Contact Day,” but “Happy No more TrekXI News Day.”
I love FC,and would be happy tp discuss it to death, but I fear the ice cold newstrail for TrekXI going forward.
I am sure Anthony and team realize this, and will try their best. But shooting is over (whatever happened to the Iceland correspondent?) and spy photos will be few and far between. Everyone is on their next job…What now!?
As for FC, I think it was the first Trek piece to actually identify assimilation as a prime directive of the Borg. In “Q Who,” they were interested in salvaging alien tech, and harvested their own babies. Assimilation was related to tech transfer only. And for some reason, huge pits were made where cities once stood
As for Zefram, I choose Cromwell. In a hopeless situation, overcoming a depression which enhances a vice, only to succeed beyond one’s wildest dreams is a message of Trek I accept. HIs Cochrane was emotional and vital. Pure Trek.
Besides, “Metamorphosis” is sleep-inducing..
#143
As I pointed out in my post - after the portion you quoted - many of the novelizations have attempted to explain the discrepancy, but none of them are ‘canon’, as they never were authenticated on screen. I only referenced ‘Federation’ because it’s interesting, not because I feel it’s a legit explanation. The books authorized by Gene Rodenberry are interesting too, but also full of contradictory information. So they’re really of little help.
And yes, many of the TOS-era races appeared just as human as our intrepid crew, but there were usually many clear references on screen to show that they were, indeed, alien. Everything here (again, besides the single line) says he’s human. Spock’s comment about human’s being irrational (directed at Cochrane’s remarks), The Companion’s desire to be human so she could love Cochrane, Cochrane’s own remark about growing old being “one of the pleasanter things about being human”. There are a dozen references to him being human, and but the one ambiguous line subject to interpretation saying he might not be.
So again, I think making a direct reference to him being human in FC only made sense, and was not a wild skew from established facts.
In terms of his reaction to The Companion, I have no idea how I would react in the same situation. However, this is a man that invented Warp Drive, and obviously lived on an alien world. His total and complete disgust at the mere suggestion The Companion loved him was SO over the top and ungrateful, given the fact he had no problem letting the creature extend his life well beyond its natural limit. I much prefer the more run-of-the-mill jerkiness displayed by the Cochrane of FC, with the relatively minor vice of drinking.
#149
I believe the Iceland shoot was cancelled last I read. I have nothing to back that up though.
#143 Yes, Lensman, an extraterrestrial with a name like Cochrane IS silly. And Vulcan and Romulus MIGHT (emphasis on ‘might’) be the names Earth gave to those worlds; like Mars, god of war, to the red planet. Why would an alien ask if Kirk and co. were also “Earth people?” Why would he reference fig trees (native to Earth last time I checked) and the Judas goat? Because the character is written as a human. A frontier colonist who settled Alpha Centauri. I don’t see how, or where, one could infer another meaning from this! But…whatever floats your starship! #145. Xai? Again you are wise; NONE of this matters! It’s a fictional universe! Happy 2nd Day of First Contact Day Festivities, everyone!
You know, I think I finally realized what drove me from Star Trek in the mid-90s:
Fans who treat Star Trek like religion and scream OMG CANON as if what they’re dealing with was a history thesis and not a fricking TV franchise. You inadvertantly kill the show every time you do this.
What made Star Trek great is, like the Twilight Zone, providing a fairly restriction-free setting for great sci-fi writers to put out great sci-fi stories on TV. Was there even a writer’s Bible? I mean, nobody whines about how TOS VIOLATED (its own) CANON by allowing the Enterprise to make day trips out of the Galaxy, changing lithium crystals into dilithium, etc. These are largely irrelevant details in a STORY about PEOPLE, as all good drama is.
I applauded ENT for that - an attempt to get back to character-driven drama in the spirit of TOS, with an occasional tip of the hat to the earlier series. I think B&B’s greatest crime was that, while they were rounding up top-flight actors and writers to create a great sci-fi show, they completeley underestimated the sheer amount of NOISE that normally-intelligent people would make, genuinely OUTRAGED, about how the spaceship looked wrong.
FC, I thought, was a wonderful bit of storytelling, limited as it was by Hollywood necessity for kaboom, and probably the best Trek film made by an all-Trek crew. Meyer and Bennett, after all, were total outsiders, and they gave us TWOK, So WHAT if FC played fast and loose with the Holy Canon of the Church of Trek? It’s a SHOW! The actors put in good performances, the atmosphere was great, the story was interesting, and it gave nods in all the right places to previous great moments in Trek. And it made a lot of money, which is always a good sign.
Just… lighten up, fer Pete’s sake! It’s a show! The actors and crew put in a lot of effort to make entertainment for us. Maybe they’re doing too GOOD a job, making it look a little TOO real, and people have started to think that it is.
#145
“Either way… does it matter?”
Ultimately? No…not at all. In fact I’ve made the argument in other threads here and on other Trek boards that “canon” is something that is up to the individual. I ingore FC and still go with the original timeline because it’s what I’m used to. However it doesn’t really bother me that Paramount and others choose a different path. Some people consider TAS canon, I don’t. That’s why in certain instances, I use the word “pretend”…..to show just how much this fictional stuff really means.
I wanted to rebut some points and make a few of my own. However I’m not trying to force any particular point of view on someone.
“you used a word in your post
“prolly”
In the frame of the sentence I think you meant “probably”..yes?”
Yes I did. “Prolly” is a newer shorthand or mutilation (take your pick) of the word “probably”.
#152
“Why would an alien ask if Kirk and co. were also “Earth people?””
Because he was from a species that was as close to Earth on the cosmic scale as Canada is from the U.S.? Because there was prior contact between the two systems? Because if I encountered someone who spoke French, I would only know they came from France, as opposed to Quebec, if I asked them?
The original Trek, especially in it’s early seasons was very Earth centric. Hence you see comments from other aliens calling the Enterprise “the Earth ship”.
“Why would he reference fig trees (native to Earth last time I checked) ”
Yes, and they can be transfered in cargo containers aboard ships in the way that foods or delicacies native to certain nations can make it to others.
“and the Judas goat?”
He says it, but he says it “the what do you call it? A Judas Goat?” pretty much in the same way Spock or even Londo in B5 might say something. It’s done so that it can seem alien, but in terms the audience can understand.
“Because the character is written as a human.”
Humanoid. The character comes from a fictional world where there any number of worlds who’s inhabitants are completely indistinguishable from humans.
“I don’t see how, or where, one could infer another meaning from this!”
You seem to be debating with “after the fact” reasoning. The original Trek universe was one in which multiple Earths exist, where aliens developed that were not just human like in appearance, especially when factoring in Hodgkins Law. Yanks and Coms anyone? They were not on a duplicate Earth and they were human. Ditto for the Roman planet as well. The term “human” seemed to indicate “creatures exactly like us” of which there seemed to be plenty non-Earth humans as well. Chalk it up the Preservers, or a common ancestor….
But there’s a certain absurdity in arguing against a native human population in the star system closest to Earth when there were so many other non Earth humans farther out. It was just the nature of the original Trek. Call it a flaw, a cheap budget or whatever, but it was an undeniable facet of the show.
Please understand that you have made some fine points, but those very points can still be looked at from a different point of view. And once again let me remind you:
Paramount and Roddenberry authorized a Chronology that was abundantly clear that Cochrane was a native of Alpha Centauri. Regardless of whether or not the book *is* canon now, it was then. (this was before the “on screen” thing) And the fact that it was printed with Cochrane being a native makes it clear that that’s how he was thought of by Paramount and Roddenberry THEN.
Now, as far as NOW, well I ignore FC for any number of reasons, the Cochrane thing being one of many. The Borg retcons being a bigger reason, ditto for the major plot holes, etc. But it *is* all fictional, and take away from it what you will. Whatever seems to fit best for you.
I have reality and you have illusion…I hope your way is as pleasant.
I kid, I kid!!
Did I mention that John Byrne has four new TOS era Trek projects lined up?
Hmm. How could humans have reached Alpha Centuri before warp drive was invented?
I seem to remember that the novel Federation (which came out before First Contact was written) even portrayted Cochrane as being from earth but later moving to Alpha Centauri to live his retirement years. I know novels are not canon - but I can see no reason why Cochrane can’t have been from earth.
#154 Lensman; Sorry, but a bit of scientific fact must prevail here; Alpha Centauri is in NO way CLOSE to our star system. Canada (where I am from) borders the US; the Centauri trinary system does NOT. At the speed of LIGHT (which mass cannot traverse by the way, except in fiction like Trek), it would take 4.3 YEARS to reach Proxima Centauri; the closest of the three stars (aka Polaris). The fact that it’s a trinary system makes it unlikely to impossible it will evolve a ‘parallel’ culture. The two systems are quarantined by sheer distance! Not much chance of “cross-pollination” here! Not to mention surrounding Oort clouds and micrometerites around OUR star system. Besides WHERE is it written or spoken that Cochrane is an alien?? I’ve lived in California a long time now. I refer to myself as “from California.” And as for #156; a good point there, too! As Xai points out, quite correctly, it IS fiction. OK, again, I’ve wasted too much time on this silly “topic.” Moving on…..
#156 In trek they talk about a race called the preservers who dispersed humans or humanods across various worlds, this one is just a thought thats all. The who debate about Cochrane in Tos and in First contact to me is unimportant and something else for the cannon people to ponder.
#143 Sebastian with regard to greenhouse gases some have argued that we may have passed the tipping point back in 90’s. whether that is in fact true or not i don’t know. With regard to the April fools column not offense was intended on my part. I am Cynic and a Pessimist and I can’t help but look on the dark side of everything. It doesn’t me right
#154
You pointed out the very problem I was going to raise with your reasoning there…when they fond Earth-like planets with ‘humans’ on them, they called them humanoid, not human. It’s a small distinction, but one the show generally held on to. So I still say Cochrane was human, and if Rodenberry’s intention had been for him to be alien, he should have left out the dozen references to him being human. He should have been described as ‘Alpha Centauran’ or something. But, it doesn’t appear you’ll be changing your mind (nor will those of us that feel he’s human), so maybe it’s best to let it be. Still, interesting points raised by all, I think.
The problem I have with the books - and the reason I think even Rodenberry himself dismissed them - is that there are simply too many alternative theories and events that take place in them. They frequently contradict eachother, and it would just be too difficult for writers to try and keep track of what people had written in Trek novels (for a while there when I was younger, it seemed like there was one novel every week practically). Even books directly approved by Gene often contained conflicting timelines or technological discrepancies, so as I said before, they tend to be of little help.
#159 Kirk said your Zephram Cochrane of Alpha Centuri, the looked like regualr human being so was the guy in contact, so why couldn’t he have emigrated to Alpha Centuri later in life? this who did to do about Cochrane doesn’t make any sense at all. Why does it need to tie in with the hwole history when the history can’t agree on somethings anyway? Time has kind passed by the old trek time line anyway.
#160
That he eventually moved to AC is what I assume happened. I just don’t buy that he was originally FROM AC, since every other reference in the episode indicates the guy is 100% human - from his own remarks right down to McCoy’s tricorder readings. Perhaps Rodenberry, in retrospect, saw that he hadn’t made it clear and chose to authorize the book saying he was actually born on AC. Then again, Rodenberry is also the one that said the books ‘don’t count’.
In the end, I say ‘Metamorphosis’ was vague at best, and FC merely clarified the point within established continuity.
Then again, discussions like this make me think that perhaps the new Trek would be better if it really was a BSG-like restart - you could keep all the important character elements and key story points, but loose all the excess baggage that 40 years brings with it.
#156
“Hmm. How could humans have reached Alpha Centuri before warp drive was invented?”
The same way both the Valiant and Enterprise reached the edge of the galaxy even though it’s vast distances away?
“but I can see no reason why Cochrane can’t have been from earth.”
I agree and according to FC he is….I just prefer the original version.
#157
“#154 Lensman; Sorry, but a bit of scientific fact must prevail here;”
And with that line you pretty much invalidated the entirety of the Star Trek universe. The fact is, the original Trek was a universe that contained duplicate Earths and humans not native to Earth. See “Omega Glory” and “Bread and Circuses”. They were humans. They were not from Earth. Star Trek never let “scientific fact” get in the way of telling a good story.
“in NO way CLOSE to our star system.”
And this was my original line, with emphasis on the words you must have missed:
“Because he was from a species that was as close to Earth on the COSMIC SCALE as Canada is from the U.S.?”
The AC system is the closest one to Earth. It’s only 4.37 light years away. In a Warp driven culture the travel time would be less than the time it would take me to drive to Canada. In the Warp era 4 light years is nothing.
“I’ve lived in California a long time now. I refer to myself as “from California.”
And you’re not an historical figure and you’re doing the referenceing. Not someone else. And most people associate historical figures with the geographical locale of the event that put them in the history books. When you think of the Wright Brothers you think of Kittyhawk….not where they’re from or where they ended up. Kirk did not display any more knowledge about Cochrane than the average joe would display about the Wright Brothers.
“Besides WHERE is it written or spoken that Cochrane is an alien??”
And for the third time….Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology. This is the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Spaceflight-Chronology-Goldstein/dp/0671790897
Re-read my posts, I know it’s a chore, but I’ve already gone over this part in detail twice. It was written…it was authorized…it was canon in a time before the on screen rule. And then it was discarded. Thems the facts.
“As Xai points out, quite correctly, it IS fiction.”
Actually I pointed that out to Xai, then opened and closed my response with that same thinking. Dude, did you even read my posts?
#159
“But, it doesn’t appear you’ll be changing your mind (nor will those of us that feel he’s human), so maybe it’s best to let it be.”
Cochrane is a small facet of Trek. As I said before, I’m at a point where “canon” is what YOU as an individual make it. NOT what Paramount hands down to you. You can regard and disregard whatever you wish and in some way, we all do that. That has been a point that I’ve brought up my last two posts. And I’m hoping that the new movie disregards a good deal of canon, and takes place in a new, fresh, seperate universe.
There were people claiming or implying that Cochrane was always from Earth and that nowhere and at no time was it written or said otherwise, at least in an official capacity. There were also people wondering how the idea took hold as well. The Chronology. The Chronology was as official as it got back then. It was the entire Trek backstory contained in one book, as authorized by TPTB.
….and they retconned it….
That’s fact. At one time that was the official stance. That’s pretty much what this entire debate has really been about. Some of us claimed that that was once the official stance and others have claimed it never was. The Chronology puts to rest the claim that it never was. An Earth ship gets to AC and meets a native named Cochrane. It’s that clean and unambiguous.
As for your second paragraph….I agree completely. By the time they got to TNG, Roddenberry seemed to have a dismissive attitude towards the original. Thats why in the “Naked Now” when they mention Kirk, it’s done as if he was just some guy, and not a major historical figure. They retconned or ignored quite a bit. The duplicate earths, the various androids and tech, warp scale and so on. TNG was basically a reboot of the original.
#160
“Time has kind passed by the old trek time line anyway.”
That’ll happen with all sci-fi and it doesn’t bother me. I can still enjoy it and take it for what it is. The original had all kinds of wild and crazy ideas, and I like it that way. I enjoy “realism” but I also enjoy the kind of stuff that lets the imagination run wild.
Lensman; as others have pointed out, the ST Spaceflight chronology is a book and the books are not “canon”, let alone a book made back in the 70s or 80s (no matter WHO authorized it; you realize “official authorization” is a meaningless marketing tool, right?). For me, this topic is so two days ago! Spending 2 days hammering out whether a fictional character is an earthman?? As for me, I have wasted enough minutes of my life on this!
nuff said on all things cannon, its way past foolish now.
Well, I, for one, am disheartened that none of you got me a First Contact day present. And I waited by my mailbox in the rain, too.
Oh what fun we had! First the kids played “Find Zephrame Cochrane hiding in the Woods”. Then we went singing Eugenics War songs and rounded out the day assimilating a big meal and getting each other drunk and avoiding our responsibilities to humanity.
Good Times.
Sebastion, you’re making yourself look like an idiot, because SEVERAL times in all THREE posts I’ve made the point that that original timeline and book were retconned. Is it that you don’t know what retconned means?
I’ve stated that it’s all pretend.
I’ve stated that it’s been retconned.
I’ve stated that it was the official stance BEFORE the on screen rule.
I’ve stated that canon is what the individual makes it.
I’ve said these things not once, not twice, but three times and you still seem to be unable to process that data. Either because you’re unable to or because you didn’t read the entirety of my posts, just responding as soon as you read something you disliked.
Seriously, if you want to rebut an argument and be taken seriously then read what the other side is ACTUALLY saying. So before you respond to anything, go back and do what you didn’t do the first time. READ.
If you can’t do that, then by all means take your ball and go home.
“And I waited by my mailbox in the rain, too.”
Bad weather delayed it, but wait…it’ll be there!
#162
I understand where you’re coming from. I never considered the books very useful - for reasons I’ve already stated - even before Rodenberry made his ‘official’ stance clear (that stance changed on any given day, of course). The Chronology - to me - is just as useless as another once-beloved book of mine, Mr Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise. It was a wonderful book, but full of inconsistent dates & technology. But hey, even TOS couldn’t make up its mind whether the Enterprise was a Constitution Class or Enterprise Class ship.
And that’s okay. The story was evolving, and the writers & producers couldn’t always make up their mind what direction they wanted to go. I don’t react as harshly to supposed ‘retconning’ as I did when I was a kid (I’d freak out at the smallest error). To me, the story of Star Trek (in all its various incarnations) is a real, organic thing that is ever-evolving and changing. The ‘retcons’ are just refinements or clarifications to me now. And I most certainly welcome the ‘refinements’ coming to us next May!
THX
I can’t access the “chat” section after trying a number of times….can you get in?
#166 Lensmen forget it your talking to the wall and you would probably get more out of the wall then him. Im sick of the cannon arguments but not with some of the points that you made, I don’t agree with you on everything but you ague your points well. Hey keep it up.
#135 - Xai
All the debates aside, a heartfelt congratualtions on your daughter’s impending! May they have a long and happy life together! (I will spare you the cliche “LLAP”)
Also glad to hear your son is moving out into the world for himself. Most excellent.
Hope your finer half is recovering nicely.
I hope my own duaghter finds a good man, too (eventually, she is only 11 months old, after all LOL).
And BTW the way, on FCD, I will be 95. I fully intend on living forever, so I should be around for any festivities!
If people get all fired up over canon, wouldn’t it be cannon in that particular circumstance?
uh, oh…..here we go again!
172
Does that not then make this entire debate, ahem, “canon fodder”?
#173 Hey cannons to the right of us, cannons to the left of us, cannons in front of us. and there you go.
#174 Garvorkin
You said it, brother….
I’d go on to mention how the simple passage of time has laid Trek canon waste, making the whole debate moot, but it’s been said already by much worthier than I.
#173
Reminds me of the old song, “hello, mudder, hello fodder…”
176
“..Greetings from Camp…Hyawatha!”
Gawd, are we freaking old, or what?
#168
EXACTLY!
At this stage of the game I’m more fluid with “canon” than I would’ve been in the past. Writers sometimes want to go in a way that I don’t care for. In the past I would’ve been pissed, but gone along with it. But in the end I realized that as it’s fictional, I can just go with whatever feels right to me and prevent or minimize any hangups.
Most of the retcons I don’t