Star Trek and Batman July 19, 2008
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Sci-Fi, Star Trek (2009 film), Trek Franchise , trackback
Russ, our regular Sci-Fi Saturday columnist is taking the week off, but the big genre news this weekend is that The Dark Knight had the biggest opening day of all time, taking in $66.4 Mil Friday. Today TrekMovie takes a look at some of the connections between the Batman and Star Trek franchises.
The Star Trek and Batman franchises have a lot common. Both are decades old franchise with multi-generational fan bases and incarnations across multiple media (film, TV, animation, comics, games, etc). Both have generated spin-offs (Batman spawning Nightwing, Catwoman, etc and Star Trek spawning TNG, Voyager, etc). Both had high profile (and some would say ‘campy’) TV shows in the 60 that continued in syndication for decades after. Star Trek and Batman were both big at the box office in the 80s and mid 90s (with both going into declines in the late 90s).
In 2005 the Batman franchise came back in a big way with a new look and new origin story with Christopher Nolan’s Batman Begins. The film was a critical and financial success, making over $370 Million worldwide. Nolan, along with screenwriter David Goyer, retold the story of Batman, but made it work in the 21st century with a much realer and less kitschy approach (where else have we heard that lately?). When talking to people working on the new Star Trek film, Batman Begins is often held up as a model of a film that successfully reinvigorated a franchise. This weekend proves that Warner Bros. has shown that they have successfully brought in new fans by eclipsing the first ‘new’ Batman film. This makes me thing of something a new Star Trek insider once said to me, noting that the film they think will be even bigger than the new Star Trek is the film that follows it…something that Dark Knight proves is possible. Let’s hope that JJ Abrams (and Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, and Burk) can do to Trek what Nolan and Goyer have done for the Bat.
Batman Begins showed Bruce Wayne grow to become Batman,
just like JJ Abrams Star Trek will show the origin story of the TOS crew
Trek connections to Dark Knight
There are actually a few direct connections between the Star Trek franchise and the new Dark Knight. Four former Trek guest actors have roles in the film: Keith Szarabajka (Detective Stevens), Andrew Bicknell (Prison Ferry Pilot), Danny Goldring (Grumpy), and Tommy "Tiny" Lister, Jr. (Tattooed Prisoner). There are also a number of stuntmen and behinds the scenes people, including Nathan Crowley who helped designs the sets for Star Trek Deep Space Nine and is the production designer for both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. Resident ’six degrees of Trek’ expert Chuck Trotter has put together a full list at Memory Alpha.
The reverse is also true as there are a couple of Batman vets working on JJ Abrams new Star Trek film, including supervising art director Keith Cunningham and set designer Dawn Brown, who were both set designers on Batman & Robin.
Past Batman and Trek connections
Of course when looking at all the past Batman films there are many Trek connections. DS9 series regular Rene Auberjonois appeared in Batman Forever and many Trek guest stars appeared in the past Batman movies, including John Glover, Ed Begley Jr., Tracey Walter, Vincent Schiavelli, Branscombe Richmond, Anthony De Longis and Biff Yeager. Star Trek Nemesis costume designer Bob Ringwood did the costumes for Batman, Batman Returns, and Batman Forever.
There are a ton of Trek connections with the Batman animated series. A bunch of Trek stars, including series regulars, voiced villains, including Kate Mulgrew (Red Claw), Ron Perlman (Clayface), John Glover (Riddler), Michael Ansara (Mr. Freeze), Adrienne Barbeau (Catwoman), David Warner (Ra’s al Ghul), and Paul Williams (Penguin). DS9 guest star Loren Lester voiced Robin; Clive Revill was the original voice of Alfred; Diana Muldaur and Brock Peters had recurring roles; John de Lancie, Robert Picardo, LeVar Burton, Paul Winfield, and even Nichelle Nichols lent their voices to episodes.
When looking at just the 60s Batman and Star Trek shows, there were some noteworthy crossovers. Frank Gorshin played The Riddler on Batman and Bele in "Let That be Your Last Battlefield." And two of Batman’s Catwomen dropped by the final frontier: Lee Meriwether (Losira in "That Which Survives") and Julie Newmar (Eleen "Friday’s Child"). Roger C. Carmel (Harry Mudd) played Colonel Gumm on Batman and Yvonne Craig (Marta "Whom Gods Destroy") played Batgirl (aka Barbara Gordon).
(L-R) Gorshin, Carmel, Meriwether, Newmar & Craig in Star Trek (top) and Batman
Batman vs. Star Trek
Taking the connection a step further, the folks at RascoFilms created a parody called Star Trek vs. Batman. Check it out below.
Did you see The Dark Knight?
So did you see the new Batman movie? Tell us what you thought below? Do you want to see Star Trek reinvigorated in a ‘realer’ way like Batman?
Special thanks to Chuck and John Tenuto for helping put together this article
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Comments»
Gorshin was the best.
What about da’ Batgirl/Barbara Gordon?
Good article!
what do i want from star trek hmm to make 70 million the day it opens would be nice
Only having seen the Bat-preview they did for IMAX a few months ago, and parts of the earlier Nolan Batman film at a con, it would be a stretch for me to come up with an opinion or comparison. However, if years of earlier film references can get encapsulated simply — through a gesture or look or something — within a stylistically superior creation, then I’m all for it. Hollywood movie history is rife with remakes, often keeping the same title after the previous version has been enshrined or forgotten.
As an example, try comparing Jackson’s Return of the King with the much earlier animated version. They are quite different, yet either one can be viewed without necessarily ruining the other.
As for the Batman; I hear that he can now turn his head from side to side. The new costume no longer inhibits the actor’s ability to make head gestures, or to turn and look in any direction. This new development may well mark a turning point in what gets expressed in these movies, just as the new cast of Star Trek might far surpass the acting in the original series.
wasnt Adam West considered for Kirk?
Dark Knight looks to be all set to have the highest opening in the history of cinema – $180 – 200 million
The Dark Knight is a spectacular piece of film making. It’s rare when a movie is executed this well. Christopher Nolan and his team accomplished exactly what they set out to do: create an epic and compelling story that was worthy of following Batman Begins. Anybody who enjoyed the first film in this series will be completely blown away by The Dark Knight. The writing, acting, cinematography, special effects, and music are all exquisite. The Dark Knight is definitely the complete package and does not disappoint.
I hope with all my heart that the new Star Trek movie reinvigorates the franchise as much as Christopher Nolan’s movies have for Batman. After the disappointing way Paramount let both Enterprise and the TNG movie series die, we desperately need something absolutely stellar to breathe new life back into Star Trek. Based upon what I’ve seen so far in the coverage here on trekmovie.com, I think we’re going to be in for a real treat….. :)
I hope Pine plays Kirk like his picture makes you think he will. BAD ASS! ARROGANT! IT’S MY SHIP DAMNIT!
Went and saw a 6am iMax showing on friday. The movie was very good and very well made. Nolan is a brilliant writer and director. This is a must see and the imax scenes were fantastic looking. I can only imagine how great the new trek would look on an imax screen shot with imax cams. This is a must see movie. Heath Ledger’s Joker was great. I mean come on The disappearing pencil trick was great! lol. I think the new Star Trek is going to have to be pretty amazing to beat the Dark Knight. Honestly.
2
Good point. I loved Yvonne Craig too.
6
I think you may be thinking of Jack Lord of Hawaii 50 fame.
thanks I added Craig, also forgot Roger C. Carmel..added him too.
but the above is not meant to be a definitive list of all the connections, just discussing them in general
Stage 16 at Culver studios in Culver City was home to the TV series Batcave sets and also home to the exterior Talos 4 and Delta Vega sets in TOS pilots
It’s all about the villains. Yes, we need and love heroes, but without bad guys they would just be admirable overachievers. It takes an external evil force to turn Bruce Wayne and James Kirk into heroes.
There are many similarities between Wayne and The Kirk. They’re both humans without superpowers, they require the help of others and thus can’t act on their own, they nonetheless break the rules from time to time, they depend heavily on technology, and the sheer force of their moral will is what enables them to win their conflicts.
Their motivations are different. Wayne is tormented by the murder of his parents and feels compelled to help Gotham in ways his father couldn’t have. He’s just as sick inside as the bizarre villains he has to put down.
The Kirk, The Creator, is a brilliant adventurer who also happens to be a natural leader. He was made for Star Fleet. I’m sure the new movie will give us a whole lot more back story. What really makes The Kirk want to keep risking his life to save The Federation? Was it some kind of personal tragedy like Wayne’s parents’ murder? We’ll see.
That’s all fine, but to make drama, we these heroes need to be pitted against villians that we believe could actually defeat them. This, for me, is the problem with Superman. Bullets bounce harmlessly off his cornea. Only Kryptonite can slow him down. It’s just a comic book power fantasy.
So the bad guys have to be just as brilliant and/or twisted as our heroes. And our heroes need to be vulnerable but for their unbreakable moral strength and will power. I think JJ knows all that and is going to deliver big time.
I saw The Dark Knight yesterday and I must say it is definitely the best Batman flick since the 89 Tim Burton version. I will definitely be going to see it again in the coming days.
I truly hope that something similar happens with Star Trek. I would love to see it generate this kind of buzz.
I just hope from The Dark Knight…..wow.
I just SAW The DArk Knight…wow, (Holy Slippery Mental Staircase, Batman!)
HERE’S SOMETHING THAT HAS ME STUMPED…
…John Byrne, who currently writes & draws a few STAR TREK titles for IDW comics, hosts his own web forum. However, for some unknown reason (to me, anyway), he has banned ANYONE from discussing THE DARK KNIGHT in any way! Anyone who has the “audacity” to start a TDK thread has it immediately deleted or shut down.
Any Byrne enthusiasts out there in TREK-land who can fill us in as to what his beef is with THE DARK KNIGHT…???
I have not seen either “Batman Begins” or “The Dark Knight” but it’s success as a “new origin story” is hopeful for Trek. It also sounds as if the new Trek will be “realer” than what has come before and that’s fine and sounds very interesting. I’ve made my thoughts clear on canon before (ignore the little stuff but keep the major events like WWIII, Federation founded in 2161, etc.) and I’m not concerned about any canon being violated in the new film. It seems to be the origin story of Kirk and crew and it sounds like it’s going to be excellent.
On a side note, in another blog about the new movie that featured the “Enterprise corridor” from ncc-1701.com and an artist rendition of what they think the Enterprise will look like based on the “Teaser Trailer” one person made the observation “it appears as though JJ Abrams looked at the “Motion Picture” design of the Enterprise and made the Enterprise in the new Trek more primitive [than TMP design] as opposed to taking TOS and trying to make it look more advanced.” If that is indeed what they did I think that’s an excellent choice.
An excellent article and so long as the film isn’t a “Casino Royale” style reboot (i.e. disregarding the last 40 years and starting over) then I’m happy. (By the way, starting over in the Bond franchise has so far brought them success as well.) An “origin story” style movie is an excellent choice since it’s a new tale and you have the benefit of starting over without really starting over (i.e. It takes place prior to TOS.) I look forward to this new film and I hope that it is a true blockbuster. Time to “reinvigorate” the franchise!
One final note, I’ve heard that the new Batman film is superb, I’d like to know what people think before I decide to go see it in Theaters or wait to rent it on DVD. Thanks.
#18 -
Staggeringly enough, THE DARK KNIGHT is listed at #1 over at IMDb… of all time.
“Dark Knight” is a very good movie. Only a few faults:
a. Michael Caine was given almost nothing to do
b. Harvey Dent’s two-face appearance was a little over-the-top. Okay, wayyy over the top. Did we really need him to look like a reject from “The Mummy III”?
c. The movie is about 15 minutes too long.
Still, this is the best Batman movie ever, and probably the best comic book movie ever. The OSCAR buzz for Heath Ledger is truly deserved. Bale, Freeman and Oldman are excellent too. Gyllenhall and Eckhart do well, but aren’t on the same level.
Joel Schumacher should be thoroughly humiliated when comparing his disastrous Batman movies with Nolan’s.
If Star Trek 2009 is half as good, it will do well.
And oh, Lord, it looks like they’ve totally ruined “The Day The Earth Stood Still”.
The only negative I can think of in terms of The Dark Knight is that Ledger’s Joker is so pitch-perfect and brilliantly executed that no one will ever be capable of following him, either in terms of a replacement Joker (impossible, I think) or the series next villain. Honestly, he’s THAT good.
The Dark Knight was AMAZING!
Saw the midnight showing Friday morning and loved it so much that I saw it again at 9:30 Friday night!
I hope with this great movie, people will finally get it out of their heads that Jack Nicholson’s (Old, Fat, and Dead) Joker was so great! I go with these new Batman movies any days over the G rated Tim Burton style movie!
1# Dark Knight
2#Batman Begins
And a distant 3rd Tim Burton’s Batman
Just saw ‘The Dark Knight’. The real standout performance was the late Heath Ledger’s portrayal of the Joker. It is the stuff of which Oscars are made.
The local fishwrap said the movie was about 1/2 hour too long. My wife & I agreed it was about 1/2 hour too short! Batman #3 is perfectly set up unless they choose to handle the dangling plotline in a Superman/Batman crossover, of which there is still some talk [but not much].
Judging from past work, regarding ST09, the roles of Spock and McCoy are in good hands. Here’s hoping Bana can pull off a villain half as memorable as Ledger’s Joker and that Pine works out as Kirk. From the little bit I’ve seen of Pine, I just can’t make that jump right now.
Did anyone notice the 30min commercials and previews before the movie…..what happen to the good ole days when movies started on time
Anthony? Did you not know that Michael Dorn was Batman? I am not sure what season ( or version ) of the animated series, or how many episodes he played Batman, but it’s true. One day I was watching, and Batman was in the process of intimidating a bad guy, and thought, “Oh! My! That’s Worf” It sounded so much like him that I checked it out, and sure enough it was Michael Dorn. Far out isn’t it?
However, I might be confused.
Don’t see how the STAR TREK movie can even come close to be compared to BATMAN under the wings of Chris Nolan. Abrams is more a TV producer than a film director. Nolan IS a movie director and a good writer as well. He has directed some very good movies: Insomnia, The Prestige, Batman Begins, and now The Dark Knight that boast great cinematic style and great filmmaking. Abrams has done one film, MI3 and it was less interesting in cinematic flair and stylistic storytelling than the first two MI movies. Paramount has constantly under valued STAR TREK with low budgets and personnel. I still wish they would have gone with a director with more films under his belt–with a more pronounced cinematic technique, and frankly more talent than Abrams. Not trying to be insulting, but that’s just the way I feel.
I have not seen The Dark Knight, and probably won’t in the near future. I thought Batman Begins was really good until the last part of the film, where Bale actually becomes Batman and later fights Liam Neeson. I just didn’t like the way it finished. It was still pretty good. As for Joel Schumacher, he really had no chance at making a good film, because Warner Brothers’ people were insane and cared only about merchandise and toy sales. Back to Dark Knight, I’m probably going to be too weirded out by Ledger, who is dead, to enjoy the film. I do think Morgan Freeman and Michael Caine are wasted in these Batman films. I love both those guys, and always feel sour when they aren’t in a major role in a film, they’re that good. Maggie Gyllenhaal as the love interest? Uh, no, I’m not buying that, I’d rather see Jake in drag. Anyway, Christopher Nolan is a great director, particularly of the mysterious, like Memento and The Prestige. Insomnia was a disaster.
Relation to Star Trek? There is some, in that the Batman roles have been recast. But Batman has evolved greatly over the years, whereas Star Trek has not. So coming out with something way out of the box for Trek probably won’t go over as well.
11
I know if we all racked our brains we could find lots of crossovers from the two show…..I remember Sherry Jackson being the Riddler’s henchwoman on a Batman in a super hot Little Bo Peep outfit.
And Anthony,…..Malachi Throne (Commodore Mendez)played False Face…one of my all time favorite villains of the show and his theme song was great too.
17
Can’t help you there but I’ve noted that his website is incredible difficult to log onto. At least I’ve had trouble logging on. No luck. Too many stipulations of what you can and can’t do. I’ve since picked up on the fact that he’s a quirky duck. And this is coming from me.
Did you see The Dark Knight?
So did you see the new Batman movie? Tell us what you thought below? Do you want to see Star Trek reinvigorated in a ‘realer’ way like Batman?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I saw Dark Knight. I liked it, but didn’t “love” it like the last Batman movie and I guess it’s because this one was so much darker. The ending was especially, and so I guess that’d be the only reason for me being disappointed in any way all be it that any disappointment would be minor. The movie is absolutely worth seeing, but be forwarned: This movie is absolutely not fit for children.
As for Star Trek, the answer is yes. I’d love for it to be given that same “realizim” as was given to “Batman Begins”. I’ve loved Star Trek anyway, but anything that gives the franchise a constructive “shot in the arm” is what I will hope for because I want to see the franchise be invigorated.
29. Greg2600 – July 19, 2008
While it’s your opinion… I think you are holding too much against a film you’ve not seen. Go enjoy.
#31 Agreed… this IS NOT a film for younger kids.
I truly hope they’re not considering Heath for an Oscar just because of his demise. That would be a slap in the face (imo). He was an INCREDIBLY talented man and I’d like to see that recognized instead of a pity vote.
kg
#33
Yup. I’m always amazed at the so-called parents that tote along 5 year olds into PG13 movies. There were plenty at The Dark Knight yesterday, and it was pretty ridiculous. Hell, *I* was unsettled with Heath’s Joker, so it certainly isn’t something for a little kid. “Mommy, where did the pencil go?”
And I’m kind of surprised at all the people that found the movie too dark…it certainly was, but to me it ended on a hopeful note, not a down note.
I was in the minority that wasn’t completely blown away by Batman Begins. I thought it was overrated. But this one… oh my god… great movie. This one actually lives up to the hype. Ledger ownes this film.
34: I have an opinion about the Oscar aspect for Heath Ledger. Granted: He did a wonderful job in that role. What disturbs me though, is this: It is how his drug abuse at least partly came as a result of his need to cope with the personal psychological implications from his prepartion and portrayal of this role. He was a method actor who took the role very seriously. Too seriously, and so much so in fact that he apparently had sleep issues that he treated himself–with medication, even after the filming had stopped. That medication is what led to his death.
When you give an award to someone, you set them apart to be an example for everyone else to follow. I believe that the way Ledger chose to cope with “The Joker” is an example that no one should follow. I believe that awarding him with a posthumus Oscar sends a message of doing exactly that–rewarding him for what killed him, and would back-handedly encourage others to observe him as an example. He should have sought out professional help, and instead he chose an avenue that took his life. I don’t want to see anyone else do that.
Haven’t seen Dark knight Yet, I hear It’s Amazing. hey where’s “1701 over gotham?” Oh And take The Damn Kids to Sponge Bob or somethin’ Geez.
Such a great movie, it just stays with you. I’m going to see it again very soon.
It is interesting the BATMAN/STAR TREK connection. I even believe someone did a fan film mixing the two properties? Just got back from THE DARK KNIGHT. Two words on that film KICK ASS! Man it rocked! So thumbs up in my book. Can’t wait some some STAR TREK on the big screen and BMIII. Hell you know they will make one!;)
me review o’ tha’ Dark Nutcase be in post 261 o’ tha’ Chat thread – clickee on above tha’ blue navigation, mates… join tha’ chat fun…
Batsman and Starrrr Trek… two fantasy franchises that go on… one gets better… and one, well… hey JJ… ye’ have a harsh mistress o’ a task ta’ make a bonny film… I have faith his Starrrr Trek will be worthwhile… I have faith! In me heart!
Tha’ bar is raised. JJ can deliver, I tinks…
Arrrrrr…
Burton’s “89 version was incredibly overrated. The writing was actually horrendous. Strange, at the time I thought it was brilliant.
BBegins WAS brilliant and a massive step up, but WHY burn down Wayne Manor?? That was excessive and really unnessesary.
Have not seen TDK yet, but did see Hellboy II. Outstanding FX, but waaay too long, and needed some script tweaking.
#42 I know, I was thinking about That Yesterday. Burton’s Batman, the original only was So Pre 911 Comic book movie Serious. Which still Made it Kinda Silly. Then with Batman Begins it was Hard core and Awesome, I Thought Ras Was Cool. Oh and…..how about those New Trek Posters….heh heh.
#37
I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of what an award represents. I found myself in a similar position when people such as Natalie Cole decried the fact that Amy Winehouse was awarded a Grammy. She said that winning the award told other up-and-coming artists that we reward bad behavior. I find this statement completely off-base.
The award is about the work, period. If the Grammy committee had failed to acknowledge Amy Winehouse’s album because they disapproved of her personal decisions, they’d have been making it about her. These aren’t Humanitarian of the Year awards. The Grammys and Oscars alike are about the work, the performance, the moment in time. They can’t be about the actor or performer’s life outside the work, otherwise they become judgments instead of awards. Not only that, but then there’s an implied approval for all the stars taking part in ‘inappropriate’ behaviors behind closed doors. We only know about Ledger’s problems because he died as a result. Would it have been alright to reward him if he’d lived through what happened? I don’t think it’s up to any award committee to become deputized members of the Morality Brigade.
In terms of what actually lead to Ledger’s death – we really don’t know and will never know. How much of it was due to the role’s pyschological toll with a method actor like Heath? How much of it was the stress/sadness of the dissolution of his relationship with the mother of his child? How much of it was due to childhood traumas? There’s no way to know, because we simply weren’t inside the man’s head.
And having known many individuals with depression, mental illnesses and the like, I can tell you that sad people don’t make rational decisions. They make choices in the moment, choices that to them seem perfectly sound but that would flabbergast many of us. It is impossible for us to judge when we aren’t in their position.
I’ve had friends that have died as a result of self-medication, and I have no problem remembering all the wonderful things they did and the happy memories I have of them. At the same time, that doesn’t imply tacit approval for the decisions that lead to their deaths. I can condemn the choice that took them out of this world without forgetting all the good things about them. I think a posthumous Oscar for Heath could likely fall under a similar qualification. If the performance was truly extraordinary, then the award is deserved.
Sorry, I went on quite a bit there. I didn’t mean to bite anyone’s head off, I just feel very strongly about the subject.
Wow, that is agood article. I never realized all the connections between Batman and Star Trek. But I think it will be hard for Star Trek to break Batman’s box office record.
The Dark Knight wasn’t what I expected– it was better. Exceeded my highest hopes. Saw a midnight show and am going again tomorrow. Brilliant.
OK I MIGHT BE FLAKING OUT HERE BUT WHO DID JOHN GLOVER GUEST AS AND IN WHICH TREK SERIES OR FILM?
btw if nolan wishes to resurrect the joker in a 3rd batman film…theres only 1 actor who could do it other than the late heath ledger….dont vaporize me with a phaser over this…but looney andy dick…did u guys see his recent mugshot on another thread on this site?? classic joker XDXDXDXD pascale even mentioned so in the caption under said mugshot! LOL
apropos Jocker : walter Koenig’s son Andrew should be mentioned, who did a marvelous job in Batman: Dead End, and was also in one DS9 episode
Joker- sorry
Saw Batman last night. I was very good. Batman dies at the end.
Just kidding. (he may or may not die)
There is one difference.
BATMAN is a comic adaptation, and the new BATMAN is much better than anything, that has been there before.
TREK is an iconic series which was made by the cast. That is why the new movie will not work.
52. Storma – July 20, 2008
“TREK is an iconic series which was made by the cast. That is why the new movie will not work.”
I’ll believe that when I see it. You must have seen the pre-pre-pre view that none of us were invited to.
“TREK is an iconic series which was made by the cast. That is why the new movie will not work.”
People said the same thing when Roger Moore replaced Sean Connery in the Bond film series. Connery, arguably, may have been the best Bond, but the film series continues successfully.
if the new trek was out this year as originally planned itd have been:
-Batman film with the joker
-Final Indy film
-2nd outing for an actor with a more serious approach to Bond after the excess of the previous guy
-a hulk movie that pays homage to the tv show
-A Punisher movie
-and a trek film..
1989 all over again (Death of the Hulk tv movie was out in 89)
as it stands the new film will be coming out pretty much on the 20th Anniversary of TFF….man is it really coming up for 20 years?..its amazing when u think about it…think of how long ago the 60s seemed in the 80s..
now the sames happened to the 80s!
I’d forgotten Col. Gumm from Batman, but it’s been awhile since I saw the series. I could make a lame joke about Cesar Romero and Ricardo Montalban being the same actor (early SNL skit had them along with Fernando Lamas forgetting which of them was which.)
Hoping to add to Dark Knight’s opening weekend gross a little later today.
Hoping to add to Trek’s box office several times.
54. Redjac… “People said the same thing when Roger Moore replaced Sean Connery in the Bond film series.”
Moore didn’t replace Connery. George Lazenby did. He did “On Her Majesty’s Secret Service” between the Connery and Moore eras.
Sean:
In a completely objective worldview where emotions and human faults wouldn’t be a factor, I could agree with you – the award should only be about the work.
But when you figure for human psychology, we know that’s not the case. Otherwise, no one would buy any magazine with photos from the beach with the star’s gut hanging out. Celebrity is now about lifestyle, pure and simple. Hollywood is made of glass houses.
I haven’t seen TDK yet, and I hear that Ledger’s performance is Oscar-worthy. But I do think his life stands as a cautionary tale. And if he does get the award, his family should be the first in line to say it wasn’t worth the habits that cost him his life.
One thing worth mentioning, in my opinion – Batman Begins really rebooted the franchise. The whole Bruce’ parents murderer is different, for example. It isn’t a real prequel to the “old” movies, it’s started its own series.
I guess most of us hope the new Trek won’t do the same, and that it will find itself within the established Trek history.
One other thing – the wonderful Grace Lee Whitney was also on the 60s Batman:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0926298/
While I did see Batman Begins when it came out on DVD and The Dark Knight on 7.20.08 I like the origin concept. I personally am looking forward to the new Trek film hoping that they fill the origin bill quite nicely. I do hope that in the Batman films they find a way to deal with Dick Grayson. But if they choose to leave Robin out, I’ll be happy with that decision too.
One thing to add is that I would hope that the new Trek film (and I think it will) is actually a PG movie, something for all ages. That is very important in rebuilding the Trek fan base. In addition to being intelligent. I think if they replace science and technology for glorified special effects, that is a mistake. I guess I am saying, just don’t make another Nemesis. LOL. Anyway, my point on Dark Knight is, the movie may be fantastic and wonderful, but I have little interest in dropping $11.50 on it. I never bothered to see the Spiderman’s, but watch them frequently on TV. My thing with Nolan’s Batman is that I come from a history of being addicted to the Batman original series from reruns in the 80’s, and then to the Keaton/Burton movies. Nolan’s are fine movies, but just not my cup of tea for Batman. Spiderman at least, is well, still that goofy Stan Lee Spiderman, as was Ironman. This is where I think Batman should differ from Trek. My only concern for the new film is that if I take it and put it up with all the previous Trek, it won’t belong, it won’t fit stylistically. In other words, can I watch it, then turn around and watch TOS, and say, yeah, that felt the same? In that sense, my fear is we’ll get another Transformers, and I’ll be miserable.
It will be cool but do you think realism takes away from art?
Well, I saw the Dark Knight and I liked it. DId it live up to they hype? No. But it was a good action movie, if not a bit long. But one of my dislikes is the fact that in making Batman so “real”, they have removed the style. And that is something that I don’t want to happen with Trek.
I liked it when Burton invented Gotham. Gave it its own unique look and architecture. I want Batman to wander around in a real Gotham City, not Chicago or New York. I like the artistic lighting of the Burton’s first Batman, I don’t like the “you are there” lighting in much of the Dark Knight. i think there is a fine line between reality and escapism and personally, I live in the real world every day. I see the real world every day. I don’t want to see Batman or Captain Kirk in the real world. Sorry JJ.
First and foremost, it’s entertainment that I hope will whisk me away to a fictional world. It can be believable without looking like a soundbyte off of CNN. And that is what I hope Trek to be. Believable, but still artistic and fun enough to take me away for a couple of hours.
And I must add that I really can’t stand CHristian Bale’s laryngitis affected Batman. Wouldn’t a nice simple deeper crsip voice have sufficed??
I’m watching Batman Forever right now. Boy this is bad compared to the Dark Night. It’s like watching the 1960’s Batman TV series
Re: 37, 44, 58: I know awards are about the work, but let’s do a math problem with fractions here and take it down to the lowest common denominator. What is the purpose of an award? It’s to showcase one’s accomplishments and why? So that everybody else can see it. Otherwise, why bother? And when others do see it, why are you showing it to them? So they can say oh, boy he really worked hard so let’s clap really loud, or so they can look and say wow, he really worked hard and I want to be just as dedicated as that guy is. If an award is given just because somebody worked hard, it really doesn’t mean anything. Where I work, I give my 100% every day, but it’s the over-achievers who are broadcasted and applauded from within our department. Same thing here. When you give an award, you’re telling everybody else that they should be like you.
Heath Ledger was a great Joker, but what did he do to make that job so good? Yes, we’re not the morality brigade but somebody has to be or who’s going to keep things fair?
I know it’s insensitive to say, but giving Heath Ledger an Oscar for this would be like giving a lifetime achievement award to a baseball player who is doped up on steriods. Not cool.
Dark Knight = $155 million opening weekend
beats the current holder – Spidey 3s $151 million
if it continues like that it could end up doing similar BO to spidey 3 – about $900 million ww
Maybe Star Trek will do something similar hey ? lol
I remember reading some fanzine with an article that suggested that Amanda Grayson was a descendant of one Richard Grayson. Would’ve been interesting and if ever made canon as an in-joke or easter egg, it would’ve made Spock a descendant of the original Robin aka Nightwing.
Well, IF Trek is successful enough to generate a box office result of about $ 205 million as Batman Begins did I’d be very happy. It is far too early to believe in such a miracle. IF JJ manages to renew interest in Trek by the upcoming movie a sequel might do substantially better but for now a result between 120 and 180 million would be a major success for Trek…
As for The Dark Knight…this is just simply out of this world. Haven’t seen it yet in Europe, but it seems to be common knowledge that it’s possibly the best movie ever made…
The only thing I’d like to see more is a press conference by the Joker alias Heath Ledger explaining to the public that his fake death was just part of that ongoing viral marketing campaign and that only ten of his core family members had known he has still been with us all the time…That would have been the greatest marketing campaign ever, macabre but truly historic…
I know it isn’t true but it would be so freakin’ awesome! And it would sink Titanic for good! However, it’s not gonna happen…he’s gone… but immortalized in this movie…
Now I’m up for the Riddler…played by the man himself…Captain Jack Sparrow!
57
Well to be completely factual, Lazenby took over after “You Only Live Twice”, then Connery came back for “Diamonds Are Forever” and then the Moore era.
68
The “man himself” to me was Gorshin; who let’s face it…took a bottom of the comic bin character, breathed a new life in him and even made the DC honchos take notice of him. Alas, Frank’s not here to even make a cameo.
Dark Knight is AWESOME!
No joke, it’s a must-see!
:D
I’ve seen Dark Night twice already and it’s nothing less then a masterpiece! I think that anyone could see Dark Knight and enjoy it, even if they don’t know anything about Batman.
Yvonne Craig is sublime. I also remember her as a member of a league of assassins in the original Wild Wild West.
STAR TREK VERSUS BATMAN? WHAT A HACK MOVIE!
Then again what did anyone expect.
Superhero movies. Sequels, threequels and morequels. Reimaginings. Turning every TV show ever made into movies.
All of these things are proof that Hollywood simply has no original ideas left.
And now childish camcorder parodies of these things marketed (and bought) as tributes?
People are just too embarassing.
The Dark Knight was a masterpiece. ‘Nuff said.
Great Batmobile. Really looked like the orig.
#65
See, I simply don’t accept that premise. Giving someone an award for one, specific accomplishment is not a way of signing a seal of approval for all aspects of their life. We don’t have any way of gauging exactly how much The Dark Knight role contributed to what happened in his personal life. We don’t know what he was going through and what lead to him abusing and overusing prescription drugs. So to not give him the award as some kind of negative commentary on the way he led his life is to make it about something other than what it is – an award for an outstanding accomplishment in acting, PERIOD. It isn’t up to the Oscar voters to try to forsee all possible outcomes and interpretations of giving Heath Ledger an Oscar.
The analogy to a baseball player on steroids simply doesn’t hold, because there’s nothing that suggests taking too many Ambien somehow made him a better actor. The baseball player sees a direct result in increased strength and stamina, whereas Ledger was apparently suffering from – and attempting to cope with – severe insomnia and possibly depression. It may not have been the appropriate way to cope, but it wasn’t as if he was attempting to ‘cheat’ at acting or gain an unfair advantage in the same deliberate, conscious way the ballplayer would be.
And again, making that a criterion when evaluating his acting skill would be making the award about his personal life, when it is supposed to be about this one performance. People may make the connection, but that’s in the control of the individuals themselves. Not to mention the fact that since he is not around to give us insight into his mental state, it is pure supposition.
I decided reality sucks and had a comic book weekend — Hellboy 2 on Saturday and Batman today. Enjoyed both. Ledger was something else and I really like Bale as Batman/Bruce Wayne but then I liked him back when he played the psycho killer in American Psycho.
#77 sean,
well-said
ok lets clarify…y has no one mentioned hellboy 2 more? after all ron perlman DID play shinzons viceroy in nemesis…
about the idea of spock being a descendant of robin—spot on! xdxdxd of course then theyd have to tie in literally every single dc comics saga into star trek, which sorta isnt a stretch as back in the early 90s tng comics were in dc comics—
and once star trek crossed over to marvel they had a post-first contact/x-men crossover comic saga called second contact in marvel comics so theyd have to tie in marvel too
oh yea—imagine this: SPOCK MEETS WONDER WOMAN JUST AS HE HITS HIS PON’FARR…OH YEA!!!
ALSO: KIRK SEDUCES KARA KENT/SUPERGIRL
AND SULU GETS THROWN BACK IN TIME AND GETS IT ON WITH ROBIN!!! XDXDXD
AND AGAIN I ASK—WHO DID JOHN GLOVER PLAY AND IN WHICH SERIES/FILM/EPISODE?
wrath of khan not withstanding dark knight is the best movie ever made!
its the goodfellas of comic book movies
Loved the Star Trek vs Batman parody! Very entertaining!
Perfect casting of Catwoman and she filled out the Star Trek Uniform very well indeed!! :)
#82 DS9 wanna Be Dax Guy, Can’t remember his name…..2nd season?
invasive procedures.
Batman Begins was great but not sure Star Trek XI should be in the same tone. They are two different entities. Begins helped understand Bruce Wayne psychology.
I dont want Star Trek to jettison 40 years of history like Bond did with Casino Royale. Although this paid off for Bond.
Not sure we need to go back to Kirk and Spock’s childhoods to see what made them tick. Seeing them as children would be cool but i think its not needed in Trek. Granted we know more about Picard’s past than we do Kirk’s . The Academy would be dcool but I don’t think we need to go any earlier than that. Will the new movie have Carol Marcus and him dealing with being told not to be in his son David’s life?
I was a big fan of Tim Burton’s Batman movies and always liked the set up of Batman in the first movie in which he terrorised those rooftop robbers, that was great. Michael Keaton was fantastic. The Drak Knight looks fantastic.
#85 “I was a big fan of Tim Burton’s Batman movies and always liked the set up of Batman in the first movie in which he terrorised those rooftop robbers, that was great. Michael Keaton was fantastic. The Drak Knight looks fantastic.”
Totally agreed. Burton’s and Nolan’s are two different Batman. Both are awesome, in my opinion.
63
I completely agree. There is too much realism in TV and film in general these days. Marvel films are ruined for me by updating them to today and changing origins from the comics. Spider Man was one that felt more comic book in tone and the third one was ruined.
I want Star Trek to stay within its style while still being updated of course.
I think the one thing that ruins films for me these days is a strive for too much realism and to me that takes the art out of the film. Why has art been sacrificed for realism?
I love what Nolan has done with Batman, he washed off the stench of batman & Robin and brought it closer to the modernage in the comics. heath ledger will be awesome. The Dark Knight is going to be amazing and cannot wait to see the new Joker. In fact Nolan’s is very much like current comics.
But I am still a huge fan of Tim Burton’s two Bat movies, with Batman Returns being my fav one. These movies were dark and had nice comic book style to them. His Gotham City was amazing and what I loved about Burton’s was that it was not period specific.
To me Batman Returns is art, it’s the avant garde of comic book films.
I liked his juxtaposition of 40s attire, modern cars and gothic tones. I still think Michael Keaton is a great Batman and his Batmobile was the coolest.
Gotta throw my two cents in…I saw TDK this weekend and absolutely loved it. It scared the crap out of me because something like the basic storyline is so possible today – not the Batman parts, but the Joker parts. How do we know some sadistic, psychopathic terrorist isn’t lurking out there right now? But anyway, Ledger’s portrayal of the Joker was brilliant – up to and including the scene in the holding cell where he’s applauding (I won’t give away anything beyond that, for those who haven’t seen it). Bale was good as a Batman who’s lost his way, Eckhart was OK as Dent (better in the second half than in the first – and BTW, the CGI was excellent :-) ) and Gyllenhall was much better as Rachel Dawes than Katie Holmes was. The ending was entirely consistent with the later comics, and left me wanting more. I sincerely hope there is no lame Superman/Batman crossover – this Batman movie was so much more realistic than any common comic-book movie that giving someone superpowers and swooping in to save the day would completely ruin it for me.
I agree that Caine and Freeman were given too little to do, but Freeman’s role was somewhat meatier than in the first movie, and even Lucius Fox has to navigate his own personal crossroads (loyalty to Wayne Enterprises, or loyalty to Bruce – and yes, they are two different things). Caine was underused, and always looks like he’s smiling, even when things are going badly. But he had some good lines. And there were some quite chuckle-worthy scenes in the movie as well – those of you who saw it know what those are, and for those who didn’t, well, you just gotta go see it to know what I’m talking about. And some well-executed surprises, as well. All in all, I think it was a brilliant story, well done, and worthy of Oscar consideration, not only for Ledger, but also possibly for (gasp!) Best Motion Picture.
Dark KNight was a good action movie, but hardly a masterpiece. And Ledger was fun as the Joker, but Oscar worthy? He acted crazy and laughed a lot. Did he send chills down my spine? No. Was he fun to watch? Yes. And thank goodness he was, because Christian Bale’s gruffy voiced Batman got old real fast. Personally I prefer the more creatively imagined world of Gotham like Burton created in 1989. I also prfer Keaton’s Batman (and Bruce Wayne).
Do I want this type of realism for Star Trek? Not in regards to the story. I do want real people but I don’t want them dealing with “real” issues and “real” problems. Not in the 23rd century. Make the people real, but put them in fantastic and dangerous situations and lets see the “reality” in how they deal with those un-real situations.
89
Agreed
Real peopel but not in the real word for the new Star Trek film
I am still a huge fan of Michael Keaton as Batman as well. To me he is my favourite but Christian Bale is up there with him.
Nothing can beat Gotham City from Burton’s first movie, that was awesome.
I thought all the Keaton fans jumped ship when Batman Begins opened 3 years ago.
#81 – e2
I refer you to IMDB:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001278/
Glover played Dr. Woodrue in Batman & Robin
Voiced Edward Nigma in both Batman TAS & an ep of Superman TAS
Portrayed Verad in DS9 ep “Invasive procedures”
CSM
Bale was arrested for assaulting his mother and sister. Lovely.
#92
There’s been an allegation of a minor assault (read: he supposedly gave his sister a push during a heated family argument). No proof, and his sister said she wasn’t even the one that called the police. She said it was over a ‘long-standing family dispute’.
#92
So what? Another bit of publicity…negative in this case…but nonetheless, more media coverage for the greatest of all box office hits…
Talking ’bout 24 million on MONDAY! C’mon…that’s far beyond natural…it’s too great to be true, even for such a supposedly great film (haven’t seen it yet)…if a movie could sink Titanic…this is it! Keep it going, folks…
Can’t wit for August 21st in Germany…maybe I should travel to London for some preview…and get my arse arrested… right in the city that arrested the Bat himself! Gosh….It would be an honor to be arrested by the same folks that arrested Baleman…*totally loosing it*
Now that’s why I’m called FREAK…Trek or no Trek…this rocks!
“Long-standing family dispute” …oh, I guess that makes it ok for someone as buff as Bale to push a woman.
RE: 57
Not sure if anyone’s commented on this. If so, I apologize for being a broken record but Moore did replace Connery as Bond.
After “IHMSS,” Connery returned one last time to the quote/unquote Bond series proper in “Diamonds are Forever.” This was followed up by Moore’s “Live and Let Die.”
Personally, “IHMSS” is easily in my top three favorites of the franchise since it is extremely close to what’s in the book. That and the opening line (”This never happened to the other guy.”) still cracks me up.
-J.
The Dark Knight kicked my ass. Pure and simple.
Hell-boy Dos was a-ight.. It had its moments. But the CGI Shakticons sucked.
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