Kurtzman & Orci Compare New Star Trek To Wrath Of Khan September 15, 2008
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Orci/Kurtzman, Star Trek (2009 film) , trackback
The thriller Eagle Eye, produced by Star Trek co-writers Robert Orci and Alex Kurtzman, hits theaters next weekend and in a new interview promoting the film, the pair were asked what past Trek film they thought their new Star Trek was most like, and when pressed they talked about Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.
Excerpts from IESB interview when asked what film they would compare the new Trek film to:
Kurtzman: Tough question to answer, just because there are so many different things. I guess the best way for me to answer is I can tell you that the movie for me that affected me the most as a kid was Wrath of Kahn.
Orci: Agreed.
Kurtzman: And that movie stood out for me because it had an unbelievable bad guy and the stakes just never felt higher.
Orci: And every character was at their most actualized. It really had the classic delivery for every character, they are finally their full selves in that movie I think, more than any of the features.
This is not the first time that Kurtzman has brought up Wrath of Khan. Last summer we reported Kurtzman’s comments in an audio interview where he also drew a parrallel with TWOK, saying:
Kurtzman: For the Trek script a lot of it was what Trek meant to us as kids. We’ve been enormous fans of Trek since we were little kids. And what it felt like to be in the theater and watch Wrath of Khan for the first time was what we wanted people to experience … [want to recapture] that kind of an emotional ride. An incredibly great bad guy against an incredibly high-stakes story that’s just emotional. Trek for us is about family and friendship.
And although he didn’t mention Khan specifically, in our recent interview with Leonard Nimoy, TrekMovie asked if there was a theme or message in the in this new movie and the actor noted that the new Star Trek does share something with Wrath of Khan…revenge:
Leonard Nimoy: I would say if there is one major driving emotional force to it, it has to do with the concept of revenge and the damage that the desire for revenge can cause. And I have always been interested in that as a concern. I think that we have seen in our time, various political factions, various political leaders, various political peoples want to get revenge for what they feel has been an unjust attack and the cycle goes around and around and it doesn’t stop. Somebody has to say “lets quit this, we are just destroying each other.” So I think, if anything, I come way from this movie with that concept.
Wrath of Khan – Gold standard of Trek
Of course, Wrath of Khan, is often considered the best Trek film and shows up on best sci-fi film lists all the time. In a recent interview with TrekMovie, Ron Moore, co-writer of Generations and First Contact, talked about how Wrath of Khan was also an influence for he and Brannon Braga:
Ron Moore: …the gold standard was Wrath of Khan and everyone wanted to do Wrath of Khan by some other name. Even in Generations we were talking about Wrath of Khan. Wrath of Khan says ‘here is how you do a Star Trek movie.’ It’s action-adventure. You’ve got a big villain. You’ve got themes of aging and great little character moments, small moments of humor interspersed throughout. It embraces all the characters. You laugh with them, you cry with them. It ends on a bittersweet but hopeful note. It is just a great movie and it really stands up.
Can JJ Abrams and his team recreate that 1982 feeling? Only time will tell.
Trailer for TWOK
Eagle Eye, co-produced by Orci and Kurtzman, opens in theaters next weekend, here is the trailer
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Comments»
yeh ! TWOK rocks
I kindly disagree with the Khan review. Sulu and Uhura were denied any meat…and Scotty’s best scenes were edited out until the Director’s Cut came out …
So Kirk being a dumbass is at his “most actualized?”
Jerk, yes, dumbass, no.
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNN
that’s what they all say! its the new WOK!
This is one of my favorite moments in “The Wrath of Khan”. I hope they can give us some classic Trek like this…
[Discussing the effects of the Genesis torpedo]
McCoy: Dear Lord. You think we’re intelligent enough to… suppose… what if this thing were used where life already exists?
Spock: It would destroy such life in favor of its new matrix.
McCoy: “Its new matrix”? Do you have any idea what you’re saying?
Spock: I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy than to create.
McCoy: Not anymore; now we can do both at the same time! According to myth, the Earth was created in 6 days. Now, watch out. Here comes Genesis. We’ll do it for you in 6 minutes!
Spock: Really, Dr. McCoy. You must learn to govern your passions; they will be your undoing. Logic suggests…
McCoy: Logic? My God, the man’s talking about logic; we’re talking about universal Armageddon! You green-blooded, inhuman…
I was kind of hoping for something more along the lines of STV…
Well, I think every movie has been compared to Wrath of Khan. How about making a new movie?
All this means is that these guys felt that TWOK had more depth than the other movies…It in no way means it’s “like” the TWOK. But we had character development in TWOK that may affect how they have written the new movie. For example, we just learned about Jim’s abusive uncle. Much like we were introduced to his Carol and David Marcus. Khan was the ulitmate bad guy and by the looks of Nero, he appears to carry on that tradition. We had great phaser battles in TWOK and it is mentioned we are going to see some of if not more of this in STXI. To me, this is a good thing. I think these guys are on the right track.
“Orci: And every character was at their most actualized. It really had the classic delivery for every character, they are finally their full selves in that movie I think, more than any of the features.”
I completely agree with what Bob said. Every character was their full selves. This movie really brought each character to where they should be… with the exception of Sulu, whose time was TUC as Captain.
#6 That is possibly the best McCoy/Spock interaction ever written. Right on!
PS- Forgive my typing errors in my last post.
oh please. Can we get away from TWOK? Stop trying to recreate it.
I think Trek IV is a bit better than TWOK, personally.
Sounds like Ron Moore was describing Nemesis instead of STII. Amazing how much better II was over Nemesis considering the budget they had for Nemesis.
TWOK is great, no doubt about it. But the desire to live up to it by repeating it has sometimes haunted and narrowed the franchise. What’s the next great Trek movie, not the next TWOK, is the right question.
Yeah, I’m really sick of the Trek movies trying to emulate The Wrath of Khan. Star Trek is about a variety of different styles and approaches. For goodnes sake, look at Star Trek 4 and The Motion Picture probably deviated from the Khan recreating most….and yes, I greatly enjoy the motion picture.
One of the he reasons I love the Trek series and movies is that each film has a different idea, but it’s still the Trek characters.
First Contact was an excellent Star Trek film, still it was not a Khan-ripoff. In other words, they don’t have to make antother Khan to make a good Star Trek film.
It’s Star Trek 5 for me, you just can’t beat Kirk, Spock and McCoy sitting around a campfire discussing life . . . .
. . . . and singing . . .
Not to worried about the bad guy being a “being” but rather the complexities of life as one gets older and wiser . . . .
Everybody wants to be the next WOK.
I hope they can come close.
“Young minds fresh ideas.”
I have to strongly disagree with that sentiment. The supporting characters have little to do in this film though they do more than the first.
ST3 better utilizes all of the crew and each has his/her special moment that further demonstrates why they are the best crew in the fleet. And lastly, they show how they’ve grown to become not just crew but family as each has sacrificed their respective careers to get to Spock and the Genesis planet going against orders. Can you do much better than that?
I’d rather be the next me. Leave the past in the past and build upon it. TWOK is in the 80’s for a reason. Look at first contact that was a good movie…
I grok twok.
I has gots some free advice for the OrcSter and Dr Kurtzweil and that is be very careful getting into a vehicle that gots Shia LeBoof™ behind the wheel, aiiiiiight?
THE WOMEN!!
=h=
Wasn’t the last Star Trek movie supposed to be “The Wrath of Kahn”?
Wrath of Khan my butt! We already know this movie will contain elaborate space battles, so it’ll most likely resemble a Star Wars flick more than anything else. This is how they’ll reach out to “new” fans by trying to fill up the void left by Star Wars.
This move failed miserably when they moved the Next Generation to the big screen. Remember the darker uniforms, grungy new Enterprise, constant gun and space battles.
Let’s hope JJ has a better grip and balance with this. I, for one, will believe it when I see it.
I love The Wrath of Kahn. But I think the essense of the original Star Trek is realized to its full potential in The Search for Spock. You’ve got a lot of great character moments in there, for all the cast. And there are a lot of emotional swings along the way.
People tend to lump The Search for Spock into the odd number curse, and I don’t think that’s fair. It’s really a good movie. There are a couple plot points that can be scrutinized and debated, but the writing and portrayals of the entire crew was top notch.
The Voyage Home has the same feel, for sure, but it really is a Kirk/Spock/Gillian movie. Doctor McCoy is really a nonentity in the movie, and that’s the only thing about the movie that doesn’t work for me. It’s missing the triad of Kirk/Spock/McCoy as the thrust of the movie.
Sure, Spock is not physically present during TSFS, but his presense is still there, even though Leonard Nimoy is not. The whole movie is dripping with Spock’s presence. Spock is in their thoughts (literally, in McCoy’s case). So we do have the triad of Kirk, Spock and McCoy throughout the movie in a different sort of way.
If I am feeling like watching a Star Trek movie, I tend to grab STIII off the shelf first. The ending lacks the action punch of Wrath of Kahn, but this time it ends on the emotional punch of the return of Spock. It is NOT an inferior movie by any stretch of the imagination. Other than maybe First Contact, it blows the rest of the TNG movies away.
I’m sure part of the reason they’re referencing TWOK is A)it is considered the Gold Standard of Star Trek movies, and B)it is the Star Trek movie most non-Trek fans are familiar with and enjoy.
since ST7 any star trek movie was about a villain fighting against our star trek crew…lack of ideas? It was ST4 and ST6 that had the best trek feeling.
26: What are you typing about? The next generation moved to darker uniforms, a grungy new Enterprise, and gun & space battles in ‘First Contact,’ a fun, well-constructed film. JJ and crew could do far worse than to emulate that film on some level.
In the end, all of those things are garnish. It’s the story and the script that’ll determine if this movie warps or sputters.
Search is an awesome movie and more true to Trek than Trek V.
Blah, Blah, Blah…. GIMME THE TRAILER ALREADY!!!!!!
:D
I always get nervous when they start comparing films to TWOK…
Is that Burgess Meredith narrating the TWOK trailer?
Nemesis was compared to TWOK – shudder
I’m just extremely excited that we’re getting a new movie featuring the TOS crew for the first time since 1991.
Anyway, nothing wrong with K&O stating they want the movie to compare with TWOK. You’ve gotta aim for the best, and most fans agree that The Wrath of Khan is just that.
Eagle Eye is not released this weekend, but on September 26th.
#35 Nemesis was indeed compared to TWOK, and shamelessly copied it. As did at least one derivative DC comics arc I remember.
It’s good to acknowledge TWOK and aim to emulate its strengths, but just running to where lightning struck gets typical results. It sounds like Kurtzman & Orci understand that, or else we’d be hearing about the Deuteronomy Device.
Well, Nemesis was similar to TWOK… huge battle between ships, an enemy seeking vengeance (Khan was… what was the other guys reason to be pissed off?), the Mutara Nebula (green gaseous thing in Nemesis that also screwed up the sensors on the ship), death of a main crew member (or destruction, in Data’s case), musical talent of a crew member showcased (Data singing…. Scotty on bagpipes!).
Enough with the TWOK! It is a classic… you can never re-create it (well, I’m sure Rob Zombie will try!)
Good grief, people, get a grip. They were asked what movie influenced them, and they finally came up with TWOK. What would you want them to say? Trek V: In Search of Shatner’s Ego?
Its this long delay that causes people to dissect every word, nuance, and suggestion of those associated with the movie that borders on silliness.
There was nothing “grungy” about the Enterprise -E, or any of the Enterprises.
I’m so excited for this movie! TWOK was one of my favorites, but I like TVH and TUC better.
And now I just remembered…I’m supposed to be doing science homework…
I always liked WOK, but yet, it stil felt like cheap budget (aside from some great sfx) and not very epic…
Trek 2 was the best. 4 and 6 were also great. The Motion Picture the directers edition was wonderfull as well. But if they had to pick you can’t go wrong with trek 2. I hope they don’t emulate it. I hope they take it in a different direction and move forward. make the next Trek better and have trek 2 compare to trek 11. May not be possible but I hope they at least go for it. KHAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Careful of those analagous references to TWOK, Roberto, lest the Canonites begin to refer to you as ‘Lord Garth’. :-)
There’s no question that TWOK was the most effective – and memorable – of the films, but it was also more space opera than science fiction. For a re-launch or re-boot or whatever it is that we’re calling this next film, I would prefer a story that’s more traditional science fiction, which was core to many of ST’s best stories. From what little we know so far about the new film’s storyline, it sounds more like space opera to me.
I can’t see how the bad guy (Nero?) is going to be as big a villan as Khan.
Unless there is a “Star Trek XI Webisode” released before the Premiere!
Also, WOK kind sucked in that Kirk and Khan never had the oportunity to trade punches. IMHO, It was a terrible mistake for Khan not to fight Kirk in the Genesis cave. I would have had Khan beam down and take the torpedo himself. Now that would have been really good!
I can’t get excited about the upteenth attempt to emulate a twenty-six year old low-budget film as if that’s aiming for the bleachers. Sorry.
Here’s an example of the next 8 months of news blurbs regarding the new Star Trek movie:
BREAKING NEWS: The producers have said the new movie will deal with the origins of the original crew.
SPOILER ALERT: The uniforms will resemble the original series with a few minor tweaks.
NEWS: The new movie will be epic in scope and the spirit will be like TWOK.
..and we will be hearing the same thing over and over and over again.
Sorry, but this isn’t news. Give us something new to talk about, huh boys?
[SPOILER WARNING]
What I always liked about TWOK was how it dealt with issues of aging and mortality, and what I’m hoping to see from the forthcoming movie is a story that deals with issues of youth and vitality. The Kobayashi Maru scenario was used as a touchstone throughout TWOK to illustrate how Kirk has spent his life cheating his way out of life and death situations, and apparently we’re going to see the scenario in this movie also.
If this film is the origin story that depicts how Kirk, Spock et al met then I hope that the Kobayashi Maru will again be used in a way that is integral to the plot. In other words, I’d like to see a conceptual opposite to TWOK, which also compliments it. If this movie is along these lines, and from what I’ve heard it sounds like it may well be, then I’ll be happy. :-)
Sorry but, nothing can hold a candle to the TOS movies, even this new and reinvisioned Trek, it seems like every time they go to do a new Trek movie they always say that they have the best villian or it is like II. We have heard all of this before. And Anthony, did you do one interview with these guys and are now slowly releasing it over months?
Wasn’t Nemesis supposed to be based off Wrath Of Khan? Sheesh maybe they should give the whole idea a rest as its been done to death. Get back to the adventure part of Star Trek and stop with the villian attacks stuff all the time.
Trek IV is one of the best Trek movies, and the villain was the probe.
Frankly, Kahn himself was boring. It was the character interactions in ST II that made it interesting, not Kahn. That attempted recreation of him was Moore and Braga’s downfall in my opinion. The Borg Queen in ST FC was truly the most ruthless villian of them all. None compared. At least Moore did a good job after Star Trek with Battlestar; I wish that Moor just wouldn’t rag on Star Trek so much. If it weren’t for Star Trek, Moore would be NOWHERE!
#51:”Sorry but, nothing can hold a candle to the TOS movies”
Most of them were so-so films.
There she is. THERE she is.
FIIIRE!
#49
I admit…a full-on duke out between Kirk and Khan would have been cool. However, at thetime that movie was produced, Ricardo Montalbon was recovering from some very serious back surgery. I don’t recall if it was due to an illness or accident, but I do remember reading an interview with him at the time. He also regretted that he and Shatner never had any scenes together. In fact, they never even saw each other on set.
I also believe that TWOK is probably the most recognized movie amongst the Trek fans but I believe TVH was probably the movie that attracted the most non-Trek fans…Joe Schmoe off the street very much enjoyed the movie for it’s environmental story.
Enough with another TWOK wannabe movie. Let have some-think new f.e. space exploration/adventure movie
TWOK was great when it came out but it hasn’t aged that well. I can see now plot holes, cheap budget and it being produced by Paramount television unit really shows it as a B movie. Also Meyer borrowed a lot from classic writers to deepen the script. The best about TWOK is Kirstie & Ricardo & the worst is Genesis device
What do we love about Khan?
The exquisitely slow introductory scene, removing his gloves and mask, “WHY are you here?” and then the torture scene with Chekov.
The massive exposed chest and long white hair.
The greatest death screed in the history of cinematic villainy.
The fact that his wife did die on Ceti Alpha 6, that Kirk is the proximate cause, and that Montalban makes us believe his rage.
His wife died on Ceti Alpha Five. Ceti Alpha Six exploded.
Sorry but didnt they try to compare Nemesis to TWOK when it was in production as well? That all went down like a lead balloon when it was released!
I liked TWOK but still think Undiscovered country is the best. Its epic! Nick Meyer, what a legend!
I still fully support the new movie and i beleive it will reinvigorate the franchise and give Star Trek a new lease of life!
They were saying the same thing about Nemesis and we know how that turned out.
Isn’t Wrath of Khan the benchmark that every movie is compared to prior to its release? I remember Rick Berman comparing every one of his movies to Trek II with the line “Oh, this is the best one since Khan.”
I’m pulling for these guys but I’ll believe it when I see it… probably a couple of times opening weekend.
#4 – Yes?
The best Trek movies are 2 4 6 and Generations. Also, the DE of TMP.
Yeah, these TWOK references make me nervous too. But so does the idea of moving out of my parent’s basement. Stiff upper lip!
Oh, and First Contact.
I’d really like to know about the new script as I understand it went through a number of rewrites.
I’d really love to know the answers to these questions.
1. Were there any rewrites due to Studio pressure or influence?
2. Were there any rewrites due to Shatner NOT? Was he ever gonna?
3. How much of it was an ORIGINAL VISION by the co-writers; Robert Orci and Alex Kurtzman?
4. Are those two the only writers on board, or are there others?
This Trek is making me wonder.
The Women!!!
Ugh. My mistake. eh?
2. should have been…
2. Were there any rewrites due to Shatner NOT appearing? Was he ever gonna?
Thanks Energize.
Here’s a couple of things I don’t get…
Spoiler-phobes, people who want to got to the movie knowing absolutely nothing about it yet continue to check sites like this where all we do is discuss the movie.
People that get annoyed at all the banter and speculation that goes on on sites like this. Hey, that’s what these sites are about and we still have about 8 more months to go of it.
People that won’t give the movie a chance because it appears it won’t match their expectations. It’s Star Trek, see it once. If you like it, see it again. If you don’t, at least you’ll know why.
Opinion-haters. I say tomato you say,,,,,,tomato. Last time I checked, we’re all entitled to have one. Opinion that is.
People that log on to websites like this and see spoilers and freak out about them are the ones that bug me the most. Why even bother with the net.
Bob Orci is a big fan of TWOK
kobayashi maru is a big theme of that movie
Kobayashi Maru is how he described Shatner situation
Come on Bob change the conditions of the test
Dennis Bailey is right. The movie should have greater expectations given the budget and what is at stake. As great as TWOK is this needs to be better and draw a broader audience.
I guess it would be fine with me if people said “wow, that movie was as good as TWOK!” when they walk out of a theatre next year.
What I’d much prefer, though, is people walking out of a theatre saying “wow, that was a good movie with a solid story!”
Nothing wrong with liking TWOK, but everytime someone comes up with the TWOK-is-our-inspiration-thing, I can’t stop thinking about the fact that Logan said the same thing about Nemesis back in 2002. How it would be the Next Gen’s TWOK and all that.
Nimoy’s quote certainly makes it sound like we’re going to see some allegorical comparison between the Federation and post-9/11 USA. Some of the previous plot speculation (some kind of emergency response to a sudden attack) is consistent with this theory. Will this be OEF/OIF in space?
Dear Paramount — since the world is coming to an end soon, any chance we can see the Trek movie in DEC. as originally planned! Purdy please!!!
Hmmmmmmmmm
On a slightly related note, is Paramount ever going to give TWOK the remaster treatment they gave TOS and TMP? Maybe we could get some extended space scenes?
I’m not saying add a CGI Arex(sp) from the Animated Series (althou that would be cool) but I caught TWOK on one of the pay channels ( I own the DVD, just didn’t feel like digging it out) and the video quality of the movie was not that good and it was showing it’s age.
Ok. This article got me going…
I think Bob and Alex me be “answering from the hip,” here?
Star Trek II depicted verteran characters who had already experienced so much history together. In a sense, in STII, they were winding down thier carreers. There is ALOT of missing character time between the 1st two movies and the series. That divide always seemed to be so vast. To me, the movie characters always seemed to be reaching for the old Kirk/Spock/McCoy realtionship that originally worked so well.
As a viewer I had lost the association with the popular original series and was playing catch up. Why such a change? Star Trek at the movies had sets and costumes that were also so unfamiar. The characters had moved on in thier carreers and did not appear to be hanging out together anymore. A strange divide indeed. The audience really was missing five or ten years of storytelling.
The Original Series. The show that made the whole franchise possible. How did it work so well? I think the show had the total package. Great writing, cutting edge special effects (that they still can’t seem to improve on comepletely,) A fully realized, fully manned, constitution class STARSHIP ENTERPRISE and a perfectly cast crew, all who are exploring the unknown galaxy for the first time. WOW! I’ll watch that.
The old Kirk and Spock relationship in the t.v. series was dramatically different. It was real fun to watch the dynamics of those three together on the Starship, Probably because I saw the series as a real 5 year mission. One where these characters are on a deep space mission that would take years to return from. It was only through the dramatic and shared experiences or intriging alien encounters.encounters, that there was ever an opportunity to reach past regulation and become really interpersonal and passionate about a cause. It was their shared experience of strange new worlds or alien encounters that created a great dynamic for the characters to react together in.
What made Star Trek II so good (especially for Trek’s core fans,) was that the villan, Khan, had already made a great mark on Kirk and Spock’s life and added well to Trek’s mythos. And Ricardo/Khan was a good choice to replay the villan, not only because he originally appeared in the series but also when considering his ’successfull’ carreer and family-friendly popularity. The villain and the heros all shared some history together. They all had reason to act and new how to act. It was expected and familiar, and a good Trek. What also made it good was that it was well done. The hero vs. villain element is a very important aspect of this movie.
That’s why I cringed hearing about the renegade-pirate Romulans. Ugh.
The main problem I see in Trek XI is how to get the villain, who is not incredibly popular with general audiences up to the task to provide the proper suspense. Unfortunately casting and filming is completed already and a BIG, BIG name is not available. But, I think this can still be done by showing the villain quickly. Jump right in with the action and maybe leave a cliffhanger to be resolved later in the movie but then leaving the villan to become the Nemisis in the final act. ; )
Hopefully this new Trek will be almost 3 hours long. That will allow the plot to build, create some real history for our new crew together, and provide time for a good villan development. Possibly a villain who becomes an ongoing Nemesis.
In closing, Remember. A long movie helped Dark Knight reach almost
1 Billion. But then, in my opinion, that movie also needed another 15 mins too.
The Women!!!
That’s what they said about the last one…
I think the point of the comparison is being missed here. The writers were asked to compare the new new film to a previous one, and they chose TWOK because, as they said, it had a great influence on them when they were younger.
They didn’t say they were “re-making” TWOK (as “Nemesis” attempted, and failed, to do) but it seems obvious that they want to emulate the structure, dramatics, and character interplay from that movie because…
1. It resonated so strongly with them, and…
2. It resonates with many fans as well.
You can take those concepts and apply them to any film without making a copy of the original. If they are able to capture the emotional impact TWOK had (and still has, for me at least) and apply it to this new cast, if they’re able to make a film that sticks with the audience and makes them invest in these characters, if they can create something that can be held up as one of the best examples of Trek, then by all means, let them use TWOK as a template. They could do far, far worse.
Mind you, those “ifs” I mentioned above are really big. A bit daunting, actually. We’ll all know in about 8 1/2 months.
I have had it with these interviews.
Come on JJ, give us something we can talk about!!!
Where is the picture of the Enterprise Orci said we were going to get to see. Where’s the effing trailer!!!
COME ON PEOPLE LETS GO HERE!!!!! We’ve been patient. Now reward our damn patience!!
OK now I feel better.
Based on what we’ve heard already (flashbacks to Kirk’s childhood, multiple time periods, at least one divergent timeline with a more warlike Enterprise), the movie is playing on a different-and broader-canvas than TWOK. I’m not that worried about it being a sloppy retread.
61: Go ST 6!
“Ahhh…the game’s afoot”
I must say, Chang’s more fun like Khan
And Nimoy’s allusions to the political aspect make ST 11 sound more like the more overtly political ST 6
Soo…new teaser trailer with Benjamin Button? :D
Or how about with…da da…TWILIGHT (ugh) haha
Or, wishful thinking, with Tyler Perry’s The Family That Preys
He is the head of Starfleet Academy after all
I seem to remember Nemesis be compared to WoK as well. That comparison didn’t stand too well either, did it! lol
Good that the guys are aiming high though- but I fear they may be building hopes rather too high!
The Filmmaker Who Cried Khan should be passed down with other great fables like The Boy Who Cried Wolf. Once upon a time Star Trek had to sell audiences on more than fidelity to previous Star Treks.
I liked TWOK because it was intelligent. It spoke to my imagination with an adult sensibility and yet contained an underlying sense of wonder and adventure that kept me on the edge of my seat. It did not speak down to me in anyway. It did not feel like a cartoon as TFF did.
From what Kurtzman and Orci have said so far, they sound not only intelligent, but also like honest to goodness fans. Thus I have great faith that they will bring something genuinely exciting to the screen.
I look forward to this coming summer.
81. Buckaroohawk
I was trying to emphasize that the original had a chemistry we have not seen in 40 years. With a new cast all that magic is available to recapture.
Especially since I am pretty sure the when the general sudience thinks Star Trek, they still think of the colorful TV show.
A Trek movie, while profitable for the movie studio, seems to be the hardest genie to capture. I still think Trek works best on television.
And where is Bob with answers to my 4 questions(Post #68)?
C’mon in Bob, the water is fine!
The Women
My team is hard at work in pre-production, fabricating models, sets and the like in our quest to “Swede” ST Xi shortly after it’s premiere.
AN OPEN LETTER TO MR. WILLIAM SHATNER:
If you read this, we would be honored to have you reprise the role of Captain James T. Kirk. In fact, we are receptive to you playing multiple roles a la Peter Sellers in “Dr. Strangelove” if you like. You can play James Kirk’s evil uncle. Heck, you can even be Sulu if you want…. It’s crazy what you can do with green screen these days!
Please be aware that this is a labor of love on our part. Our budget is frightfully small and who knew the cost of the foam board that we use for set construction would sky rocket.
We don’t have much to offer financially but it is our wish that you will consider this an opportunity to set the record straight and correct any shortcomings that may arise with the Abrams/Orci/Kurtzman production.
Be sure to check http://www.stxisweded.com soon for more details!
TWOK’s not a bad movie to get inspiration from, just make it your own though. Oh and Nemesis was Awesome, stop crying Because you didn’t see Riker Shave, Crusher complain about her Boobs, or Deanna Getting lit.
It was About Picard and Shinzon, there was a Real story there. That made it interesting. Yes Data blew up, He pulled a Spock From TWOK…(heh)
It was a very Human choice, but he’s still inside B4 anyway. Hey I’m entitled to my Tomato here, okay. Just sayin’
Nemesis was supposed to be like The Wrath of Khan? Funny, I don’t remember the dune buggies in Star Trek II. Or the clone. Or the mind rape. Or the pompous hack of a director. How in the world was Nemesis at all like Star Trek II, except for the even number? (It even made Ron Perlman look bad, and that’s pretty hard to do.)
I really, really hope Star Trek: Zero is not like Star Trek II like Nemesis was.
I agree that STII is the gold standard. But I think ST3 is right up there. STII was more adventure/fun, ST3 had more emotional punch. I remember leaving the movie theater feeling like …..OMG what just happened. Kirks reaction to the death of his son, the enterprise blown up, spock resurrected, and each of the regulars getting their moment in the sun was all great to see.
I hope the new movie has the same elements of ST3 (which Nimoy directed) of making us care about the characters, quasi-ensemble but still some focus on the triad (kirk,spock,bones relationship), and of course kick ass action and effects.
Think TWOK days are past. We’ve had so many bad guys verses the good guys in outer space — we need something new.
IMO the only reason TWOK was so dramatic and made such a strong impression was because they killed off a major character. The death scene and funeral were gut wrenching. But it was also a desperate grab at box office numbers while not thinking about future box office numbers.
Trek is still suffering from TWOK because it killed off a major character. They kind of had to bring back Spock but the franchise lost a little credibility in doing so. Became a little more fantasy oriented after that instead of scientific.
Okay – I’ll forgive them once but wait ………… they did it again!! In a desperate grab at box office number they kill off Kirk in “Generations”. And they do it yet again with Data in ST10. Except that the repetition can’t draw at the box office anymore because its old hat.
Trek is partially in the mess it is in because it does not seem to learn from these mistakes. Kirk being dead influenced this upcoming movie. It wouldn’t be TOS type Trek without its main characters yet they killed off Spock, lost credibility by the necessity of bringing him back, so now its tough to bring back Kirk without losing credibility again yet you can’t have Treks iconic crew without Kirk. You are in a quandry.
Cut out the TWOK format. It worked once, but failed on repetitions and left scars on the franchise that contributed to Trek’s decline. New ideas and a new format would be better than another good guys battle bad guys in outer space type movie where we get emotional impact by killing of somebody. The infamous chemistry between the characters is what made TOS Trek different — why then kill off characters vital to that chemistry?
Did TWOK really work? Yes, once, but at the sake of future Trek movies. Why do so many seem to want a repeat?
I really find it odd that STII,III and IV are never put in to the list of great trilogies. Each of the films stands up well on their own, but watching all three shows a great arc and some great story telling.
And, as other people have mentioned, I think they are talking more about the emotional punch of TWOK rather than just copying the story in a different setting ( coughnemisis ). Nemesis really did try too hard, and the biggest moment of plagurism(?) was the “run down corridors, get weapons, load torpedoes” bit right before the end battle which TWOK did better ( and with the classic James Horner score pumping )
TWOK was a great movie, very exciting and entertaining. But it’s never a good idea to try and copy something great. After the second and third repetition it won’t be so great any more. Try to be original, instead!
I prefer TMP, by the way, but TWOK is second. TWOK was great, but it still had some gaping plot holes. It seems that they were never writing their screenplays very carefully after TMP. So the movies could never live up to the TV shows. Let’s see how STXI turns out in this respect.
Two words:
Nicholas Meyer!
Don’t need to say much more, well other than a big thanks!
Movies, schmovies. NONE of the movies approach the greatness that is the original series. How about trying to emulate that??
First contact had the same claustrophobic gritty edge TWOK had..First Contact would edge it for me..simply because Patrick Stewart’s acting outshines Shatners!
I love TWOK but after watching it again recently, I wished that Kirk and Khan could have been face to face at some point. I also realized that Khan was largely defeated because he developed a mental illness, major OCD.
Okay, left field question:
Does JJ have an assistant director on this film production?
” It really had the classic delivery for every character, they are finally their full selves in that movie I think, more than any of the features.”
While I immensly enjoy TWOK, this statement doesn’t really ring true. Especially with Spock. Exactly who is this mystical Vulcan guru, spouting out bizzare and very unfamiliar lines like ” I have been and always shall be yours.” ? Not the Spock from the TV series. Sure. V ger affected Spock, but it shouldn’t have change his speech pattern for crying out loud. Yep, Spock delivered some pretty “flowery” dialog in TOK that hardly resembled his TV character.
McCoy was pretty much on target, as was Scotty and the rest of the supporting cast.
Shatner,naturally, was great at aging his character, with his one totally out of character moment was the classic, yet ridiculous and hysterical yelling of KHAAAAAN!! He knew Spock was coming to rescue him so it had to be for Khan’s benefit only. And boy, did he over-sell it! Khan knew Kirk, how he ever believed Kirk was serious after that tantrum is beyond me! lol
It would have been funny if Bob referred to this new Trek as most similar to STV. As a joke. But let all the fanboys go ape$#!T for a day or two before replying under Boborci with a big AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
I think it’s interesting that the greatness of TWOK established that Trek films need villains, since that makes Trek at the movies very distinct from Trek on TV (in which “villains” in any real sense of the word are relatively scarce, even rare).
#102 “It would have been funny if Bob referred to this new Trek as most similar to STV. ”
Would’ve suited me just fine. Undeniably, the character moments in Trek 5 are closest and truest to the TV series. No offense, but if people honestly can’t see that, they’ve never seen or fully understood TOS.
The TWOK bashers – whats wrong with you? TWOK works because of the interactions between the characters and a great villian. Search for Spock runs on the fumes of Search for Spock and sputters out by the end….I mean the opening scenes in Search are just running on the emotions of TWOK. Thats why Spock could never be as good as TWOK, the only scene that somewhat recreates the emotion is the destruction of the Enterprise…I guess the “Escape from Starfleet” is pretty fun too.
These guys aren’t saying they are trying to copy TWOK – they are just saying they are looking for emotion the movie had runnning in its veins. Nemesis – now that is a bad, bad second rate copy.
Yeah and movies need villians..something that TMP clearly established. You pay $10.50 to be entertained for 2 hours, and while stories without a “true villian” may be good for episodic TV, they just don’t cut it for most people in the theaters.
And #104, I’m glad you decided to be the arbiter of what the TOS means to people or what it should it mean.
106- my pleasure, more often than not, it seems people have a habbit of not seeing the obvious because it’s the popular thing to do.
Roberto: “And every character was at their most actualized.” (?????!!!)
Sorry guy, I REALLY disagree.
In fact, they were frequently OUT of character in that film. Hell, even TFF had more evenly developed character interaction, not to mention countless series eps.
Guess since I grew up with TOS, the movies seem like half-hearted, pale, nostalgic, imitations by comparison- mainly, I think, due to the fact that many of the actors lost their “grip” on their characters over time.
Just look at the movie performances by Walter and, yes, Shatner, for example.
#104- YES.
The director of Star Trek 2 and 6 was by far the best director of the entire series. There is a reason those two films stand out. I would love it if they ever hired him to direct a TNG feature. I think he would do a great job with that cast.
#105 credit where credits due to Nemesis..has the best funking trailer out of all the other movies put together!
Yeah, there is about 5-6 minutes of good character interaction in TFF, surrounded by 80 minutes of garbage. I mean for all that good character interaction, you have Scotty portrayed as a bumbling fool and an AARP card carrying Uhura as a sexpot. Thats some great classic TOS characterization!
I’m, getting a little sick of everybody trying to do the next TWOK. ST is not just about TWOK. There should be plenty of ST adventures to tell with out a space battle. Maybe in the next 50 years some director will get that.
This movie is the ticket to save Kirk and bring back Shatner, Let the tos spock tell the young Kirk to stay the h3ll away from the Enterprise B
star trackie#104- The character moments in STV are the closest and truest to the TV series? I find that statement to be somewhat vague; however, when I have watched STV I almost feel as though I am watching a MAD TV parody. I could write pages of reasons why that particular movie makes me cringe, however, according to you, I just do not understand the show (since I have seen every TOS episode at least 20 times, I do not think I fit into your other “have not watched the show” category). It is good to know that you come here to this forum to write, since those of us who do not understand the show need guidance.
101. star trackie – September 16, 2008.
I have watched The Wrath of Khan about a jillion times since it came out, and you just posted something that I had never considered. The “KHAN” yell, though a signature line from the movie, never rang true with Kirk’s character with me until I read your post. I thank you for opening my mind to that perspective.
While the new PTB may have looked at TWOK, let’s hope that they haven’t used the film as a complete model in terms of look, story, structure and characterization. TWOK was fine 26 years ago, but its gold-standard has run out since it’s been purloined by later Trek films especially FC, INS and NEM. A copy of a copy of a copy loses something in each new “transfer.”
I always thought that if in the next gen movies they would have brought Q in for a villian role then that would have been a comparison to WOK. Oh well.
101 – “one totally out of character moment was the classic, yet ridiculous and hysterical yelling of KHAAAAAN!! He knew Spock was coming to rescue him so it had to be for Khan’s benefit only.”
No, you’re wrong – it was for the audience’s benefit too!!! ;)
#111 “I mean for all that good character interaction, you have Scotty portrayed as a bumbling fool and an AARP card carrying Uhura as a sexpot. ”
Well, I have no problem believing that Uhura, being the competent officer she is, would do anything to help the mission. If stripping creates a needed diversion, why wouldn’t she do it? Because you don’t like watching her isn’t a very good argument against it.
And, as far as Scotty bumping his head….well, I didn’t like it either. But whether it’s Spock in his underwear, performing an underwater mind-meld with a whale or the Excelsior puttering out with all the charm of a Model T jalopy, the Trek movies are no stranger to some comedic clunkers. If one accepts it in the other movies, then one should at least be consistant and accept it in 5.
We should also bear in mind that during the original run of movies, Leonard Nimoy was very much the keeper of the flame for what “Star Trek” has stood for. I think that’s one reason TSFS and TUC worked as well as they did.
I still am reserving judgement on the new film until I actually see it, but the fact that Mr. Nimoy has been so involved in this one is very telling.
In a past article, someone mentioned the theory that ST V was all a dream bookended by the campfire scenes. I like this theory. It actually makes sense when you take into consideration all of the things that make that film non-Trek.
Sorry comedy and stupidity are two different things. There was a lot of stupidity TFF – Scotty banging his head, the whole crew allowing a band of ragtag bandits to take over their ship and the comedy was on Jar Jar Binks level.
And secondly, all the examples of “comedic clunkers” – please note that your examples are Treks III and IV, not TWOK. I can’t remember any stupid or corny jokes in TWOK – the closest being the “fake deaths” of the Crew during the training exercise which was a joke based off the TOS “jump around and die” method for showing action on the ridge.
#59. Well stated. If the new movie can touch on the villainy, the revenge, the passion, the humor and maybe even some of the literary allusions, then it — we — are in good shape.
But what about Montalban’s chest? Can they replicate that?
If this film is anything like The Wrath of Kahn it will be a hit and I will like the film. I say it will be a hit because non- trek fans I’ve talked to liked TWOK. These are folks who didn’t care for any of the Next Generation shows or movies or classic show, mind you.
I liked it because it has it messages, but when I saw it I was a kid and the messages just flew over my head. But I loved the action back then.
I saw Nemesis about a year ago. While it obviously tried to be TWOK for the Next Gen crew, it did not seem to really work. Even though I am not a fan of the next generation crew I could tell that the characters in the last trek film did not act like they did throughout the series. To turn Picard into an action adventure captian who goes on away missions was not what Picard was all about. I like Patrick Stewart as an actor. I don’t care for Picard as a character. But to see him playing Captain Kirk just felt wrong.
The other thing about the Next generation is the fact that the show had more characters than the original did. Kirk, Spock and Bones were the main characters in TOS. The others while important in the function of the ship were not really main characters as much as they were secondary characters who had a hand full of shows about them. The Next Gen had several characters who could arguably were all main characters (hey, the show was on longer and done in a different way.) So, when it came to the films there were many characters who got a few scenes but nowhere what Picard and Data got.
The only Next Generation movie that felt right for that crew was First Contact. And I’ll admit that I actually even kind of enjoyed that one.
IIRC, a few months back I started a new job, working with a man whose last name is Kahn.
Can you even imagine what I go through every day, having to restrain myself from going all Shatner on him and yelling “KAAAAAAAHN!” across the office?!?
# 121 “There was a lot of stupidity TFF – Scotty banging his head, the whole crew allowing a band of ragtag bandits to take over their ship ..”
Like I said, Scotty was just bad comedy. Coming off the heels of Trek 4, that was to be expected. Some of it worked, some of it didn’t. As far as bandits taking over the ship, remember it was a skeleton crew with a leader that had power to mentally persuade others to his way of thinking. And it certainly wasn’t the first time the ship has been hijacked. Whether it’s by Sybok or the Kelvins or the Scalosians, hijacking the Enterprise is neither a new story idea nor a bad one.
Why Does everybody Type it KHAAAAN!! , it wasn’t just KHAAAAN!!, It Was
KHAAAN!! KHAAAN!! KHAAAN!!
101. “KHAAAAAN!! He knew Spock was coming to rescue him so it had to be for Khan’s benefit only. And boy, did he over-sell it! Khan knew Kirk, how he ever believed Kirk was serious after that tantrum is beyond me! lol”
Like I previously stated, Kahn became mentally ill., not at his best. Lucky for Kirk.
Talking about the (in)famous “KHAAAN!!”… which was caused by Khan telling Kirk he would be “buried alive” for the rest of his life. Yeah, great. Did Khan really believe nobody would ever come looking for a Starfleet Admiral and a Federation top science project?
This is exactly the kind of sloppy storywriting I had commented on earlier.
As incongruous and embarassing as Kirk yelling, “KHAAAN!!” was, it has become a bizzare Trek moment that has taken on a life of its own over time.
There were so many other moments for Kirk in TOS that were much more
“classic,” though.
And aside from some awkward dialog, I’ve always thought TSFS to be superior to TWOK- especially after seeing them back-to-back.
“”128. Holger – September 16, 2008
Talking about the (in)famous “KHAAAN!!”… which was caused by Khan telling Kirk he would be “buried alive” for the rest of his life. Yeah, great. Did Khan really believe nobody would ever come looking for a Starfleet Admiral and a Federation top science project?
This is exactly the kind of sloppy storywriting I had commented on earlier.”"
It’s not sloppy storytelling. Khan always planned on going back to kill him. He was just “toying” with Kirk. He just went to destroy the Enterprise, who all knew what he was up too, and then he was going to go back and kill/torture Kirk. He was far from done with him. Kirk knew it too, and thats why he played up the “KHAAAAANNNNNN” yell. He made Khan think he was panicky and afraid to be left down there, and so Khan played it up by telling him he would be burried alive for all eternity.
Kirks defeat would not have been complete for Khan without the destruction of the Enterprise. Had he destroyed her, he no doubt would have come back to taunt Kirk with that knowledge.
124. The Underpants Monster,
I hope your boss has a sense of humor because if you did it even once, at best you might be labeled a “problem employee”.
For me, STII captured the essence of the TV show — a great villain, teamwork, the fantastic Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic. And that death scene just can’t be beat. I really enjoyed STIII for what it said about the crew’s relationship.
“In the end, all of those things are garnish. It’s the story and the script that’ll determine if this movie warps or sputters.”
Bingo.
PS. I always called STV, “Shatner’s Revenge.”
I think two things need to be kept in mind.
1. All of the Trek movies have flaws. Including TWOK. I love the movie and it is generally considered the best of the lot. But it is far from perfect. And Spock was particularly out of character I believe. Or at least his dialog was.
2. The KHAAAAN! moment has become part of pop culture, no doubt. As a joke.
And I do have to mention that Kirk, Spock and McCoy were on the money for the most part in TFF. Indeed, De had a tremendous scene during McCoy’s father’s death. Tell me a more powerful piece of acting in any of the Trek movies this side of Spock’s death.
Why nitpick so much? The poster who hailed the trilogy has it right — enjoy the three for the fabulous story of the triad and comrades that it is. Hail Nick Meyer and Leonard Nimoy! And don’t neglect TUC — an elegiac swan song for our gallant crew — second star to the right and straight on till morning….
- TWOK is great as a movie…but it isn’t the greatest trek movie..the best TREK movie is FC…
..although i hate even now that stupid flying d***….
#134 – For me, those few beautiful acting moments just served to highlight how bad the rest of the movie was. They were wasted on it.
I know this is probably off the subject just a bit, but I wish I could take Star Trek V and
(1) get rid of the slapstick things like Scotty banging his head and tone down the comedy somewhat (but don’t remove it completely, there were a few good jokes in there),
(2) get some much better effects work done (although I must admit, I’ve always loved that shot of the Enterprise-A hanging in front of the moon near the beginning of the movie),
(3) remove the whole Sybok-is-Spock’s-brother bit, the movie could have worked with them being old friends or something,
(4) some improved editing to remove such things as Deck 78, and
(5) tweaking some of the sets, particularly the Jeffries Tubes – they just don’t look right or make sense to me, being larger and brighter than the main ship corridors, plus being pretty straight-looking in a saucer-shaped primary hull.
I think some changes like that would vastly improve STV while keeping the basic story intact. When I watch that film, I always sit there and wonder about what could have been…
27 – your’re right on point. TWOK and TSFS make an excellent pair of movies, and TSFS had fantastic character development; Scotty, Bones and Sulu had some great moments.. though Uhura and Chekov could have used a little more.
as far as I’m concerned, TSFS could have been the final film made with the original cast. ST IV was too campy for my tastes… and in a sense, it really didnt need to wrap up in the storyline from TWOK and TSFS. after all, with the return of Spock, what else does there need to be? the entire story could have ended there… getting home should have been no more than an epilogue
#53, – the villain wasnt the probe
there were two villains
humanity, who killed off the whales -
and time , which was running out , to save planet Earth
i have a feeling Spock (Leonard Nimoy’s Spock, that is ) will die in this film (i mean once and for all, not to come back) . i mean, how else can you guarantee that this will be epic in scope? Spock sacrificing his life to save his friends, the original crew – leaving way for the sequels for the new cast to take over,
#141
yeah so evil humanity kills of whales so as punishment the aliens send a probe that almost sucks up the entire ocean – yeah that’ll teach the humans not to mess with the eco-system!
#90 – just when i thought I was the only person in the world who enjoyed Nemesis!! :-)
#139 – ITA on all points. There were the seeds of a good movie there, but everything was taken too far until that potential was squandered.
#142 – I think you’re right. Nimoy hasn’t said anything specific, but he keep talking about passing on the mantle, and this being “the end of the road” for him. Makes perfect sense. I’m bringing extra Kleenex to the cinema.
#141 – I never got the impression that the probe was *deliberately* sent as a punishment.
139: I agree with you on everything. But after all these changes, it wouldn’t be the same movie any more, would it? So, in order for STV to be good, it has to be changed into another movie. And that’s why STV as it is is not a good movie.
145, 146
Yeah, I have to agree STV as it is is not a good movie. But it could have been. The basic story has potential. It’s just that it gets hidden under all teh flawed stuff piled on top of it.
BTW, the story of STV has many similarities with the unrealized Phase II (the 1977 project, not James Cawley’s show) episode “To Attain The All” by Norman Spinrad (I believe). An alien Guru (who turns out to be a hologram) brings the Enterprise crew under his sway, promising them to become one with “the All”, some kind of Nirvana, and he is integrating them into a collective consciousness. Guess who resists the brainwash through his immense power of the will? So the brainwashed crew turns against the captain. In the end our heros find out that the All is the collective consciousness of a dead civilization stored in a computer, and that the All wanted to use the Enterprise to spread out over the galaxy and integrate everything into its group mind.