ST Zero…kinda sounds like a soft drink… As for an altered timeline…sign me up. Anything that could erase Generations has my full support. :)

“the fanboy may have come out a bit in him. :

Yeah fanboys!!

And, like you said, he went on to clarify that he was only referring to the public statement that he did not do cameos.

“…Kirk’s death was perceived as a big problem but that they’d do their best. Now, to me that does seem like a door was left open.”

I think it was, as evidenced by the fact that a scene was actually written. That would certainly mesh with Abrams’ claims that they wanted to find a role for him.

“why then a “never say never” months later In March ‘08?”

One of Orci’s later comments sheds some light on this. Being pressed for time, I won’t search for it, so forgive the paraphrasing…

He said something to the effect that STXI (or Zero, whatever) might open new doors for the future of Captain Kirk. I think he meant that as a reference to the “possibility” of a permanently altered timeline, in which the character of JTK’s fate might yet be uncertain.

However, any potential decision to bring him back later would not be Orci’s alone. Whereas he is often speaking retrospectively about the collective decision to leave him out, I think in this case (”Never say never”), the fanboy may have come out a bit in him.

After all, he’s a fan too.

Orci: “We went through the same process that we went through with Nimoy: We pitched him what we were thinking early on before we wrote it, and got his blessing as well, which was amazing. We talked in the meeting about the fact that Star Trek had killed Kirk and that was going to be a big stumbling block to an organic introduction of the character, but we would do our best. Subsequently he said he would require a slightly larger part than maybe this movie could sustain so we’ve kept him in the back of our minds, and now with another year to go, who knows?”

During the interview, Orci was asked if Shatner could be worked into the film. Orci stated he didn’t think it was likely, but “never say never.”

Trekonline comment in that June thread:

Orci: “By the way, when I said that Mr. Shatner subsequently said he wanted a larger role, I was referring to his public statement that he did not do cameos. Nothing more.”

I have to say this is even more curious than I remembered it. This confirms that they did meet back in 2006, Kirk’s death was perceived as a big problem but that they’d do their best. Now, to me that does seem like a door was left open and I can then understand Shatner’s confusion when he never heard from them again. Moving on, he states that it was Shatner’s subsequent public comments about wanting a role larger than the movie could sustain that was one problem. Uh, wait a minute. That’s quite a leap in the timeline — from 2006 to Oct 07 and just implausible and illogical — no talks between parties for over a year; script written, casting complete and filming/strike about to start in early November?

Sorry, still don’t see how an October 07 remark can put a nail in a coffin that was already underground — and moldering like Captain Kirk. ;)

But then, if WS’s 10/07 remark was taken as the end of it, why then a “never say never” months later In March ‘08?

“Clear? I respect Orci as a fan of his work and have trouble believing that his statement was a direct reponse to Shatner’s October 07 comments because I just find that scenario utterly implausible”

Orci said that he was referring to “I don’t do cameos”, and nothing else. I’d say that’s making it pretty clear. Again, not only is that the only support the creative team has given for their conclusion, but Orci went out of his way to clarify that it was based upon nothing else.

As for what Shatner said in the 2006 meetings, it is very possible that he made some inital comments about requirements for his possible role’s significance, and the “I don’t do cameos” statement only put the nail in the coffin (along with the fact, as you alluded to, that Abrams did not find that the scene worked well within the movie). However, there is nothing out there which points to that.

Clear? I respect Orci as a fan of his work and have trouble believing that his statement was a direct reponse to Shatner’s October 07 comments because I just find that scenario utterly implausible (which is why I always come back to the original pitches). They never speak to the man since talks in 2006 and then base everything — i.e, his willingness to even do a cameo; the size role he wanted — on something he said to AP and on his website less than a MONTH before filming (and a strike) was to commence in November 2007?? That just makes NO sense and these are very bright guys. And JJ made it clear in his remarks that he didn’t think the scene worked anyway. Again, it doesn’t seem plausible that anything Shatner had to say in October 07 could have had any bearing on his being in the movie at that point. (Now god knows what all he might have said or done in the 2006 pitches.)

While I find the whole situation curious/odd, given their obvious love of Trek, I don’t think they would see writing any Trek scene as a “waste”. (And despite my professed puzzlement about the whole situation, I DO look forward to reading it next year.)

Orci made it clear –right here at trekmovie.com—that his “Shatner required a larger role than the movie could sustain” comment was based solely upon “I don’t do cameos”.

Furthermore, Abrams has said nothing which suggests that their assessment of Bill’s “requirements” was supported by anything else.

Shatner may very well have made his demands clear in that meeting back in 2006, but there is nothing out there which supports that theory. Nor is there anything out there (yet) which indicates one way or another when the scene in question was written, except that writing such a scene after making the determination that Shatner wouldn’t do it would make no sense. If we should speculate at all, I think it would be most reasonable to conclude simply that the scene was most likely written prior to the creative team making that determination. I doubt that Bob and Alex would intentionally waste time in their own pretty busy schedule (on and off the Star Trek project)…and I certainly won’t assume that.

? I’m not assuming it was written after Bill’s cameo remark in 10/07– my post says “based on the 2006 meetings”. The scene had to have been written well before 10/07 since filming & the writers strike were looming in Nov. I’m just musing that given the 2 parties never talked beyond the 2006 pitches according to Shatner, that’s the only time Bill could have indicated anything to JJ & Co. at all about the size of his role or his requirements. And so, if he was that adamant back then — and they never bothered to check back in with him and pursue it — it just begs the question: why write a scene at any time? Now, maybe if JJ had thought that written scene HAD worked, they would have given him a call, who knows? But it just seems weird to me that TPTB never spoke to him in 2007.

“Yes, very good analysis, Liz, and thanks for quoting me”

I was reading your posts and nodding my head in agreement and thinking, ah….a kindred spirit. ;)

Of course – things have changed. Not being asked is the new number one prerequisite for coming to the party. ;)