Orci & Kurtzman: Star Trek Is The Story Of How The Enterprise Set Sail October 2, 2008
by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Star Trek (2009 film) , trackback
In a new in-depth interview, Star Trek co-writers and executive producers Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman talk more in depth about the new movie, including a bit of detail on the setting, canon and how they want to bring a bit of Star Wars into Star Trek.
On the setting and canon
The pair were asked what their Star Trek was about…
Orci: It’s about how the original crew came together, which was never covered in its entirety by either the show or any of the movies. No one has ever told the story of how the Enterprise set sail.
Kurtzman: There are details in canon where the characters refer to their past but there are wide areas of interpretations and sort of blank spots where you go, "Wait, I understand this, but how did they get from here to there before they got to that point?" And that’s where you have some room.
Wired.com: While staying consistent….
Kurtzman: You have to remain consistent. You cannot break one rule of anything’s that’s gone before.
When asked about how fans will react to the film, they returned to the subject of canon.
Orci: There’s going to be a debate when this movie comes out whether or not it’s consistent with canon. We argue that it is. But there’s literally nothing we can say about this movie. Even if we think it’s not controversial, people will say, "Oh, that’s convenient, they’re covering a story that’s never been covered before instead of dealing with canon."
Wired.com: It’s a pretty intense legacy.
Kurtzman: The questions we’re most attracted to are, "What are the rules of these characters and the rules of that universe and the rules of what makes Star Trek works?" If we don’t tap into that, no matter how consistent the movie is with anything that came before, who cares? If you tap into that and come up with something that embodies the spirit of what we felt when we first saw it, then hopefully we have Star Trek.
A little Star Wars in Star Trek
Wired also asked the pair about how JJ Abrams has mentioned he is more of a Star Wars fan, but they are more Star Trek fans. While Orci agreed that they and Damon Lindelof were big Trek fans, he also agreed with Alex that they "have to bring more Star Wars into Star Trek" but noting specifically "original Star Wars" (not the prequels). But they feel it needs to be a mix:
Orci: Original Star Wars. I want to feel the space, I want to feel speed and I want to feel all the things that can become a little bit lost when Star Trek becomes very stately — which I love about it , but….
Kurtzman: Star Trek is often the space equivalent of sub battles, which is what makes it unique and different from Star Wars, so you can’t blow that away, either.
Orci: It’s somewhere between that the truth lies.
For much more goto wired.com..
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Comments»
More Star Wars in Star Trek? Uh oh…let the games begin.
So are we going to see a really fast enterprise?
“. . . bring more Star Wars into Star Trek”??? That makes me a little nervous, depending on what it means exactly. If he really just means a little of the look and feel of the space scenes, then that might not be too bad.
Interesting. Hearing a bit more about their approach is somehow reassuring… sometimes I worry about whether the writing will really capture Star Trek the way it should (more so than with any of the actors, tbh) and I guess it’ll be a while before we really know, but hearing them out and discussing what they think and feel about the task is nice.
(Though I freaked out a bit over that Star Wars line in the preview, haha. Luckily it wasn’t what I was expecting. :) )
I think he meant it in the nicest possible way.
“Star Trek is often the space equivalent of sub battles, which is what makes it unique and different from Star Wars”
Glad they realize that! After all, innt Star Trek II basically a big sub battle?
3: yeah, that’s what I was thinking, too… if it turns out to be something else, though, you know there’s going to be a serious firestorm. LOL.
Let’s hope not!
Don’t bring Star Wars into Star Trek, Trek needs to stand on its own merit. Remember Trek was here first.
Long Live Star Trek
Mongo think what they need bring in it is box office. That kind of what Trek need.
Mongo not take quote too literal. Don’t think Orci mans and Kurtzman mans (that funny) want to turn Star Trek into Star Wars, but take some of fun element that work and adapt to Trek style. Mongo think that even though Star Wars fantasy it approach to space more gritty and dangerous. Star Trek sometime make space travel seem easy, like go on big cruise. Enterprise from TMP even look little like cruise ship.
Curious though. Mongo wonder how creative team apply this idea.
Here’s the key in which the writers support an element of ‘Star Wars’ being added to what Trek has done before—
“Orci: Original Star Wars. I want to feel the space, I want to feel speed and I want to feel all the things that can become a little bit lost when Star Trek becomes very stately — which I love about it , but….
Kurtzman: Star Trek is often the space equivalent of sub battles, which is what makes it unique and different from Star Wars, so you can’t blow that away, either.
Orci: It’s somewhere between that the truth lies.”
We’re talking about the ‘feel’ of the action in space…not turning Star Trek into Star Wars…
The creative team has said all along that this film is about the characters.
Kirk is a Jedi in this one.
#9—-Mongo very smart mans…Mongo understand that Trek ’scale’ in space need help to convince new fans…
This was the best interview Mr. Bob and Kurtzman have done to date! “You cannot break one rule of anything that has gone before.” Did everyone read that?!
And I want one of those Enterprise phones…
A lot of Development for this Film and Sequels – I think it’s the Trek Farewell ?! !
#14
Why? Elaborate please.
Yay, i wanna see the caleidoscopic Ludricous Speed in the new Trek!
Although the Enterprise itself can´t maneuver like the Millenium Falcon, as it´s supposed to feel heavy but you can always add little star fighters.
In Star Trek VI, the speed was represented by following the torpedoes flying to it´s target..
#13—I did. I also remember Bob telling us that “anything which appears to violate canon will have a canon explanation”.
Unfortunately, although that has been reinforced here, those who wish to judge the canonical validity of the film before it even comes out will continue to ignore those kinds of statements in favor of their own preconceived assessments.
Heh,
Well, as long as the movie isn’t all ‘Stone Trek’d out, doesn’t look like it was made in my neighbor’s back-patio and doesn’t feature the Sombreroprise, I’ll be happy. :P On second thought, the Sombreroprise isn’t that bad. :-D
#15 Mongo Man , both Paramount and Cbs are Downsizing . . The Star Trek The Experience Closing .. The 2008 US Economy Collapse ?!!!
sub battles indeed!
Star Trek’s battles have always been a cool one on one battle of wits.
HOWEVER, large fleet battles such as Wolf 359, 2nd Borg Invasion, Most of the Dominion War, all blew me away and now I want to see cooler, better made, more realistic, more epic fleet battles (like star wars)!
That’s obvisouly what they mean here when they say “Star Wars” and “epic”, and obviously not mean turning Star Trek into a space opera
NOOOO!! Shun the non believers, SHUN!
Okay, I get what they’re saying; not Wookies or lightsabers, but a bigger feel, which we all know most of Star Trek lacks. Many of the best Star Trek movies focused on close 1 v 1 battles (The Wrath of Khan) or tight political issues that become close battles (The Undiscovered Country, Nemesis). I think that a feeling that broadens space to something that is beyond what our 5 characters on the bridge are thinking is what Trek needs – we need to know that all of the space we’re seeing on screen matters. Trek also should loose the stuffyness that has been the criticism of many Star Wars fans.
As long as Jar Jar doesnt appear, its fine.
I don’t know about you, but I really just want to see what the new Enterprise design looks like! How much longer do we really have to wait for crying out loud!
#23—Until they show it to you…You may not see “the whole thing” until May 2009.
You cannot sense speed in space…
speed is felt only when you can relate to other object, even when traveling at warp speeds the stars are so distant that you would not see them swooshing next to you.
Startrek is realistic in that context.. starwars is a space opera.
I hope they don’t bring back the “strobe” effect when the Enterprise goes fast. Simply hated it, so cheesy. I want to see the big E in all its HD big screen detailed glory.
The only way there’d ever be any Star Wars in Trek is with George Lucas producing and directing it. Which, if he’d followed through on a bid to buy the rights to Trek back in the 70s, would actually get me excited about this movie.
I HOPE TO GOD THEY MEAN:
More epic in scope, like STAR WARS. The “speed” thing I don’t have so much of a problem with… if they’re gonna delve into more “gollygeewhiz” explosions and rampant CGI aliens, then I’m not so sure that would be the right idea.
FOCUS ON THE HUMANS AND CHARACTERS! NOT the effects.
#27—After seeing what’s he’s done lately with his own tentpole franchises?
Personally, I’d be disappointed…not ‘excited’.
What Star Trek needs is a Batman like robot.
Man, am I glad someone finally said that! I had often wondered for years why in space the enterprise seems to list if it’s not going warp-speed. There’s no reason I can see why it shouldn’t have maneuverability, after all, it’s not a Star Destroyer that’s miles long. It’s big but still, get it moving already! The Star Trek world doesn’t have small, single-manned fighters like an X-Wing so that element is missing (at least for me) from the show and movies and I love that about Star Wars. something else I would like to see in Star Trek is the weathered and worn look. For the most part, everything about Star Trek is nice and clean and always new-looking (except in battle of course), and in Star Wars, things look used and have wear from use, they simply fit better in their environments.
I believe it’s the minutia, the details Orci and Kurtzman are talking about when they speak of including some elements of Star Wars into Star Trek. Sometimes it’s just those small things that make a big difference in how we accept certain implausibilities and scenarios. I for one welcome whatever changes they make, as if we were to stick solely to the TV show (TOS is from the 60’s, keep in mind, and has a very 60’s look and feel) and the movies, how modern of a movie would we get? How much of a director’s and writer’s vision would we see? Might as well not make a movie at all, just continue watching the reruns and movies, the last of was filmed what, 19 years ago?
“You cannot sense speed in space…
speed is felt only when you can relate to other object, even when traveling at warp speeds the stars are so distant that you would not see them swooshing next to you.
Startrek is realistic in that context.. ”
From the very beginnings of TOS, Trek has shown stars moving past the Enterprise and moving in relation to one another – sometimes quite quickly.
There is nothing “realistic” about Trek’s depiction of space travel.
#30 well we had Data and those robots in TOS i don’t see how one in a batsuit, while admittedly cool will not solve anything
This movie will be just like all the other really good “re-(fill in the blanks).” It’ll take the original concept and of the show and make the people in it actual people. It will be as if the characters are actually human and not the sterilized, idealized versions seen in the original shows/movies. I already know how the feel of the movie will be, but I’m really stoked to find out the plot and the details.
14. Darfyn – October 2, 2008
A lot of Development for this Film and Sequels – I think it’s the Trek Farewell ?! !
19. Darfyn – October 2, 2008
#15 Mongo Man , both Paramount and Cbs are Downsizing . . The Star Trek The Experience Closing .. The 2008 US Economy Collapse ?!!!
You never answered the question and this doesn’t make sense.
I still wish the movie were coming out this winter.
25. Spocks brain – October 2, 2008
“You cannot sense speed in space…
speed is felt only when you can relate to other object, even when traveling at warp speeds the stars are so distant that you would not see them swooshing next to you.”
You need to give Spock back his brain. First, this is fiction. Second, you, I and Harry Ballz have not traveled at warp speed, so I doubt you can say what it looks like. Trek can imply movement (like #32 mentioned) as a ship moves against a starfield.
I think the writers are pointing out the Trek Ships (of size) tend not to display drastic manuevers, (graceful). There is a certain grace (IMO) to many of Trek’s ships that SW lacked. The TMP Enterprise always reminded me of a winged horse from a certain perspective.
#27 #29 – The rumors about George Lucas considering buying the Star Trek Franchise seem to be true ! I have read that George always liked Trek , and I have read quote from his business manager that they were looking into it ! This rumor has been around for 20 years or more ! Recently his company said they weren’t interested . I wish he were !!!!
If he was , I’m sure it would be very serious discussion among Trek fans .
For the last 5 years , CBS has been desperately trying to sell the Franchise . And now , presently , they seem to have changed their mind !
I hope George , Steven or their friends read this , trekkies or trekkers need some serious Scifi Soap , LOL !!!!
36. Boborci – October 2, 2008
“I still wish the movie were coming out this winter.”
Me too… But I’m sure you guys made it worth the wait…right?
Star Wars has always been about fighter planes…..Trek is much more large Naval Battles. But more importantly Trek is about the characters. You live with them…care about them…feel with them.
How is any of what you said a Trek farewell?. You lost me.
#41 referring to #38
39
You bet your A$$!
43. Boborci – October 2, 2008
39
“You bet your A$$!”
ROTFL
Boborci
Glad to hear it.
#36 – Me too, dude. At this point, I’d be happy if a *trailer* came out this winter.
Sigh.
Boborci, I see JR Orci’s name on Fringe credits.. a brother?
GEORGE LUCAS???
I hope that man doesn’t come within 10 feet of STAR TREK. That guy wouldn’t have the FIRST CLUE how to deal with the fantastic human characters of the TREK world. He’s damned lucky EMPIRE came out as good as it did, what with the help he got from Irvin Kirschner, Lawrence Kasdan and Leigh Brackett.
STEVEN SPIELBERG, on the other hand, would be awesome. But let’s see how this J.J. Abrams guy works out first, shall we…?
#46 Cranston they already said before Xmas.
#35 Xai , What do want me to say ? This Downsizing is making the Studio or Network ineffective ?!! JJ Abrams Company is producing the Star Trek Movie XI , and are using the Paramount facilities ?!!!
#48 SPB
agreed
47
My lovely and more talented brother indeed.
#50 Darfyn
You weren’t clear.
As for ineffectiveness, the movie is nearly done. Facilities have little to do with it now.
52. Boborci – October 2, 2008
47
My lovely and more talented brother indeed.
(You get a better Christmas gift now with the compliment?)
LOL
BobOrci
Think your brother in law will ever don the red cape again?
“I still wish the movie were coming out this winter.”
Me too. I think it would have owned the season, BO-wise. Christmas is a time for nostalgia and that would have been perfect for a Trek reboot. Seeing these beloved characters again.
55
I certainly think he should — He did his job, and it was a nearly impossible job at that, and I can’t imagine finding a better actor to portray the caped one.
Star Trek died, but it will be revived :) a litte SW on Trek? sounds cool.
57. Boborci – October 2, 2008
Agreed. He had a very tough act to follow.
I hope whoever writes the next one for him realizes that character is the “light” to the other (very popular) characters “dark”. Same side, different elements.
Mr. Bob- LOVE to hear these types of comments from you. All our imaginations are now running willy nilly, to and fro…
Boborci
Thanks for the conversation. Good night.
I’d love to see Star Trek rip a page from the Star Wars prequels…
The Phantom Menace introduced a fully CGI-animated character in Jar Jar Binks, who definitely was annoying.
But…
You know what my geek dream I hold in my little heart of hearts for the new Star Trek? When the Bridge is unveiled for the first time, sitting at the navigator position is none other than a fully CGI-animated… Lt. Arex. Who soon after is relieved by Chekov and our adventure begins.
That would TOTALLY rock my world. I loved that character as a kid.
Although… we already have too many characters in the movie as it is, so maybe they can introduce him in the sequel.
“Kurtzman: Star Trek is often the space equivalent of sub battles, which is what makes it unique and different from Star Wars, so you can’t blow that away, either.”
I ADORE this comment.
#62 -
I’ve always said, too, that I hope they manage to include Arex and M’Ress in the background somewhere (either at Starfleet or on the Enterprise) in STAR TREK XI. You’re not alone!
Re #55:
“BobOrci
Think your brother in law will ever don the red cape again?”
Who is Bob Orci’s brother in law?
#62 -
(At the very least, shouldn’t we have a Lt. Arex ACTION FIGURE by now???)
65. Gary Seven – October 2, 2008
Who is Bob Orci’s brother in law?
Conjure with the powers of Google, Mr. Seven. Didn’t you get enough hints?
Okay so the general theme on here is that the world is going to explode in 5 minutes.
I hear Winona Ryder’s going to play Jar-Jar in this movie.
#6 – “Sub”-themed battles in Trek go back at least as far as TOS “Balance of Terror” — 15-16 years before TWOK.
#36 – I haven’t taken into account how frustrating Paramount’s decision must be for you writers as well as for us fans. Thanks for pointing this out and for siding with us. I look forward to seeing what you’ve done with one of the greatest legends from my childhood.
Does Darfyn know that Paramount own Trek franchise rights? CBS hold rights to TOS.
And beside, industry that was one of most successful during Great Depression was movie industry. In time of little hope, people look to escape in world of fantasy and adventure. This seem bode well for Trek, Mongo think.
Mongo like Lt. Arex, too. Mongo seem remember that James Doohan mans did voice. James Doohan mans do many voice on both TOS and TAS.
#36 – Mr. Orci, please forgive me for neglecting to address you properly in my previous post.
ok don’t freak out guys. i mean, they’re not turning it INTO star wars, they’re just bringing some of the fast-paced elements SEEN in star wars into star trek.
kinda scared me too until i really read into what they’re saying.
like star wars, LOVE star trek :P
So does this mean we get to see Sulu with a lightsaber instead of a sword? :P
Speaking of “Star Wars,” #72 – Mr. Mongo, I can only imagine what it would be like to sit down to a meal with Yoda, Jar-head Binks and you. I’m sure it would make for one of the most interesting and possibly tiresome tete-a-tete-a-tete-a-tete suppers in the history of everything. “My Dinner with Andre the Giant and His Annoying Pals.”
#72 – Oh, and let’s not forget Bones’ backwards-speaking “how can you be deaf with ears like those?” friend from “Search for Spock.”
Also, me only joke. Me mean offense none.
Brett Campbell mans
None taken, old bean. I find that there are certain ways of expressing oneself that cut right to the chase. Sort of a stripping of excess and getting to the real substance of your thoughts ala Miles Davis and his interpretation of a common pop melody. It also makes one think a bit more while reading, and that is stimulating.
Mongo back to Mongo.
I find it fascinating that the first few responses glommed onto the “Star Wars” thing and immediately freaked out. Did they not read the rest of the article?
Mr. Orci and Mr. Kurtzman sound like true fans. I cannot wait to see this vision. PLEASE GIVE US SOMETHING!!!!
Mr. Mongo, so interesting and delightful to hear you speak in another voice, although your usual idiom is also delightful and amusing. My piss-take was aimed more at Yoda and Jar-head. Be well and have a pleasant tomorrow.
And good for you for challenging us to work a little harder at our reading and communication. World a better place could stand to be if so did people more. G’night, Mr. Mongo. And g’night Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are!
Orci:
“I want to feel the space, I want to feel speed”
Hence the “Biggie-sized” engines.
Back when JJ said he wanted to bring more Star Wars into Trek, that really scared to crap outta me.
But now, I understand what he means.
“Feeling Space and Speed” has always been lacking in Trek. I never felt like we were cruising along at warp nine, except in the opening credit swoosh as the E zips past.
The only ep. when I could “feel space” was Enterprise’s Romulan “Minefield.”
Kirk floating around in “Tholian Web” didn’t do it, nor the ‘Assimilate This!’ scene in “First Contact.”
So, if Roberto O. et al can pull it off, I’m good for ten viewings in the theater.
I’ve been a hard core skeptic of this film, but these guys have really won me over.
I can’t wait. I still think Dec. was the right release date.
An Orci commented Trekmovie post.. I can now sleep well at night.
#72 Mongo Man , Interesting points – I think the Rest of this Year will be the Turning Point for US !! I still think the Movie will be the Farewell !!
But I hope for the neverending Star Trek Epic !!!! Jimmy is Missing !!!!
I hope this movie is Star Trek and upholds the Roddenberry philosophy rather than cashing in on Star Wars
I trust the writers more than I trust Abrams, especially Orci.
I have a Spider-sense feeling that this movie is basically gonna screw up canon.
I think I’ll quote Han Solo when referring to this movie,
“I have a bad feeling about this.”
After seeing ‘EAGLE EYE’ Im not so sure anymore..
# 36 Boborci
Yes, I wish it was coming out this winter too.
If you look back though the past few years, there seems to be a trend that the second big movie weekend of May tends to be overshadowed by the first big release the previous weekend. For instance, Iron Man ruled the box office far over Speed Racer.
One may argue that Iron Man is the better film, and that’s probably true, even though I greatly enjoyed Speed Racer as well.
However, next year X-Men Origins comes out the weekend before Star Trek. It’s easy to see the demographics between the two films could be largely shared. General scifi/comic book fans. So if that group goes to see X-Men, they might not want to go out to see Star Trek the next weekend, due to having already spending money for X-Men. I think the move of Star Trek from 12/25/08 to 5/8/09 was a mistake. I hope that I’m wrong though. On Christmas, Star Trek would have had little competition and ruled the box office.
Star Trek already has a negative “geeky” stigma among the general populace, and I hope that can be overcome with proper marketing, and hopefully be able to pull a decent box office return. In essence, I hope this movie will be the “Batman Begins” of Star Trek.
I know you and Alex worked hard on this film, and I wish you the best of success, not only for you as a true fan, but for the rest of the fans as well to enjoy your film.
I’m glad that they want to bring some of the epic scale of the first Star Wars films into Star Trek. People have long since said that the newer Trek films just became extended TV episodes and lost the grandeur of the first couple of Trek films.
STAR TREK XI (a la Star Wars)
Pike: “Here she is, Jim…The Enterprise!”
Bones: “Sweet Jesus”
Kirk: “What a piece of junk!”
Scotty: “Ya came in that bucket ‘o’ bolts? You’re braver than I thought, laddie.”
Pike: “She did the Kessell Run in under 10 parsecs.”
Kirk: “What the hell is a Kessell Run? Spock? You served on board this thing. Does it…work?”
Spock: “Considering the obvious nature of her unpredictable proclivitiies, I would hesitate to obfuscate what may be construed as obvious physical flaws to the duranium hull structure, and…”
Kirk: “DOES IT WORK? DAMN YOU, SPOCK.”
Pike: “He’ll never tell you, Jim. He loves me too much”
Kirk: “Can you fix it, Scotty? How long do you need?”
Scotty: “Six weeks, and a spacedock”
Kirk: “You have ten minutes.”
Scotty: “Aye…I figured as much. C’mon, R2! Let’s get ta work.”
R2D2: “Squeak Blurt Blurt”
(They beam aboard Enterprise)
THE HUMAN ADVENTURE IS JUST BEGINNING
Well, I have a totally good feeling about the movie. Bob and Alex as well as JJ and Damon know what they are doing, and they are aware of the risks involved. As a creative team they are the best that could happen to the franchise, because they bring in their own experience in the business, mixed with respect for canon and the fans. I’ll bet Trek will rock.
Regarding the Kessel Run, if a parsec is a unit of distance (3.3 light years) and not of speed, how do you beat that? Or was Solo changing the rules and took a shortcut through space? Like I did a marathon once in less than 42 kilometers, hehe.
This is good news; in fact, it’s what I have ‘campaigned’ for here on TrekMovie.com. Star Trek space battles are all too similar. In the movies, it’s usually two or a handful of ships in slow space combat. Shields start to fail; power is diverted; there are evasive manoeuvres; etc. Now, we all like this; but, after 10 films, it has become a little repetitive. What we need is for the main focus to remain on the Enterprise and her crew. It would be great, however, if we could have a battle between two fleets; or between a large number of ships. To spice up the combat, we could have different types of ships with different attributes. Ideally, and perhaps this was indeed hinted, we could have some smaller ships, which would offer a very different visual, and tactical, feast. They could dart in between the capital ships in quick skirmish attacks à la Star Wars. I would like to see this done. And it’s an obvious nod to Star Wars. I would not want it to be a carbon copy (or nigh carbon copy) of Star Wars, though. That’s a fine line to tread.
The action is key to attracting new fans (as well as to satiating the Sci-Fi appetites of the old fans). Trek XI needs to be directed in a livelier manner. We need new camera angles and filming techniques. Hitherto, Star Trek directing has been quite static, safe, and predictable. We need urgency. We need epic scope. We need a visual treat. What better inspiration could one have than Star Wars IV and V?
Forget the rest of them…
AJ#90- LMAO! Good one, Mr. Bond.
fakesteve:
I thought of having Spock mention the “parsec” thing. Didn’t fit into the intricacies of the plot, however.
do any of you have any idea how wonderful and different TOS actually was?? these people may be making a marketable movie, but its not going to be star trek.THey are worried about selling it to the masses. its more about “reviving the series” than making something of quality. its going to be a completely bastardized version of what we all Love so very much… im not saying this to piss you off, star trek is just really important to me. shit.
“The questions we’re most attracted to are, “What are the rules of these characters and the rules of that universe and the rules of what makes Star Trek works?” If we don’t tap into that, no matter how consistent the movie is with anything that came before, who cares?”
Sounds like there is hope. Focus on what made Trek work – don’t get caught up in canon and continuity crap that interfere with what made Trek so good in the first place.
TOS Trek has withstood the test of time because it told stories and had characters that were timeless, had universal appeal, spoke to everybody and to which we all could relate. People won’t come to see this film because it is perfectly consistent within an imaginary universe. Story and characters have to come before canon and continuity or Trek will lose the universal appeal and keep going more and more into the niche fan base only mode.
ugh. Please… no mention of Star Wars again, especially if one is intending to inject a little “Star Wars” into Trek. That revolts me.
#88 Good Points , Danny !! I think it’s True about the May Trend !! Star Trek Movie XI coming up against Mega-CGI Giant – and First in , Last out !!
Christmas has always been good to Star Trek !!
Trekkies Love Trek Geeky , but being a long time Trekkie , mentioning Star Trek at a Party is like turning the temperature down to Zero !!!!
[95] hey AJ, sweet idea… I must be more greenblooded than I thought ;) (and being german always helps with the nitpicking)
[96] Well, gfhhgf, I feel your pain, but the point is that Trek did in the 60s what they could to bring on the show we loved. And TOS is, like greek art in the Metropolitan, preserved for the ages. You can own it on DVD, in the original version, or in the new crisper interpration. No one will take that away by introducing a new look at the whole story, with the writing and effects of the early 21st century. That is like mourning the remake of Ben Hur. Great classic if the silent era redone in color and with that state of the art chase in the circus maximus. All they try is redo a classic after 40 years, something that is quite common in the industry.
And regarding the “completely bastardized version of what we all Love so very much”, as you said, that was called VOY and ENT.
HA! Found it.
Concerning the whole Star Wars comparison subject.
Written by me, here, long ago…
499. TrekMadeMeWonder – January 9, 2008
“… Expect to see a much larger bulky hull that can take alot of damage… Think Star Wars…”
Predictable.
@36 Mr Orci – ‘So say we all!’
…and the adventure continues…
Bob Orci’s and Alex Kurtzman’s comments about canon are thoughtful and wise. Canon is very important, but it has its place. Stone chips in the paint of canon are okay, even inevitable for a franchise with as many miles on it as Trek has; it’s when a whole fender goes missing that one must blame lazy and careless writing. And these talented guys are definitely NOT lazy and careless!
Definitely looking forward to hearing that engine roar next May …. !
uh…more ILM in this one maybe.
I don’t really feel like commenting……ah Damn it.
Darfyn…begging you to stop with the exclamation points.
I kidz cuz I…kidz.
biff
36. Boborci
You can make it happen, can’t you, Bob?
Hint: It’s called Rapidshare!
I think when all is said and done, you gotta say one thing: Messrs. Orci and Kurtzman actually listened to the fans. Obviously, they cannot accommodate the wishes of every individual, but they have shown that they care about what the fans think, simply on the basis of their participation here. We should all be very grateful. And, this is also what intrigues me most about the film we are in for. We have lived through a period of Star Trek where it seemed the fans were not being heard at all. To have the new Team hanging around here with us is an indication of how they are listening to what fans think about Star Trek. No doubt, they had some pretty specific ideas about what Star Trek needed, but I’m also willing to bet they took some things the fans were vehement about and took it to heart. I think we’re not gonna be disappointed.
Side note: I watched Nemesis last night on AMC. I felt bad for the cast more than anything…
Even more comment on Trek by Simon Pegg on Time.com… starting 5 minutes into the interview. He already feels like Scotty to me, amazing.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1485842900/bctid1832238903
why dont they ask about the shat in these interviews?
Alright, alright, we got it: you are NOT making a science fiction movie.
#88 & # 99 – I remember back in ‘ 86 the theater packed to full capacity with the IV:TVH thanksgiving weekend release. That one seemed to do pretty well at the box office. Paramount — if you get any ideas from this, please make it T-day of ‘08, not ‘09.
How about these two moron writers actually shut up about Star Trek… are they THAT nervous?
More Star Wars into Star Trek? Meaning? We need more flat, dumb dialogue? Idiotic Jar Jar Binks characters? Too much CGI? What? WHAT?!
I’m sorry but I for one am getting very bored and annoyed with these two writers… JJ included… too much talk and not enough proof or action if you take my meaning… they are already trying to mold people’s expectations on the new Trek, which feels like they are getting too nervous…
I don’t mind more action in Star Trek, but then Star Trek is an intellectually based concept… Star Wars was a satruday morning hoo haa… that turned the movie industry upside down… but failed to do it again the second time around…
Star Wars is Star Wars…
And Trek is Trek… what bothers me about these two writers is that they keep comparing their movies and ideas to other movies. How about some originality????? I mean are they THAT afraid to come out and say…
Yeah, our story is very original and very unique… has a little bit for everyone and a lot of what Star Trek is about and what it means for the fans…
Right, they can’t say that… that would mean they actually have a good story… as it is now… we don’t know anything about it… it could be amazing and it could be a pile of Dren… but at the moment, all I hear is “It’s like this, it’s like that… blah blah blah!”…
Show us something so we can judge for our selves!!
“Kurtzman: Star Trek is often the space equivalent of sub battles”
yes yes yes yes yes
hmmm lets see.. Grand Scale: check.. Equivalent of sub battles: check.. Leonard Nimoy: check.. Shatner: check…
can you say midnight showing?
[113] Now, TST, it was not the writers, or Abrams, decision to move Trek from Xmas to next May. So of course they are kind of frustrated, like everyone else, and want at least talk about their work. I think it is a nice touch from Boborci to drop by here now and then and stay in touch with the fanbase. But for all the folks out there who expect big ILM bangs and really fast moving Starships when they are supposed to pay for a SciFi blockbuster… why not give them some eyecandy next to the heartwarming forming of our beloved 1701 crew. While Kubrick made me a life long SF fan with 2001, I will never forget the first time I saw the Death Star blow up.
I like the “sub battles” analogy. I’d never thought of it before, but it’s absolutely perfect.
I’ve always loved submarine movies, with their boxed-in drama and watery menace. Think of Clark Gable in “Run Silent, Run Deep” — he could be James T. Kirk in “The Corbomite Maneuever.”
I *guess* I understand the need to sex it up a bit with Star Wars-y interstellar fight scenes. The chief thing is, I feel like I trust these guys. They’re nerds enough to want this “Trek” to be valid while still reaching new audiences.
I welcome the Star Wars ORIGINAL comparison. Don’t worry: I don’t think that we’re going to see James T. Skywalker come May ’09. But, hopefully, what we will see is Star Trek as we’ve never seen it before. The writers continue to labour the point, seemingly for our benefit, that they have respected the essence of Star Trek; and the important bits of canon. The script has been highly praised (Nimoy and Spielberg). There is a huge budget. There are many talented people working on the film. That sounds like a recipe for success.
PS. Would someone please tell Alex that the reverse baseball cap is not the way to make Star Trek cool!
#113—”How about these two moron writers actually shut up about Star Trek…”
I’d much rather you did.
Hey #118
I might not agree with what #113 said, but I think Orci and Kurtzman are probably man enough to withstand what amounts to a virtually anonymous comment by someone on the internet that most likely would not have the gumption to say the same thing to their faces.
Statements by people like #113 are just not worth getting aggravated about in my opinion.
The internet is a wonderful place for name calling when you do not have to identify yourself or face the people you are being insulting to.
I did however chuckle at your retort #118
Just my two pence of course….
In the Simpsons, Ned Flanders expresses with frustration with God by complaining, “I’ve done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!” I imagine that’s how Orci and Kurtzman feel. What do you do when even hardcore fans can’t agree on basic canon?
If Spock starts talking like Yoda, I will leave the theater.
#113 Perhaps if you’d read what they said, you’d understand.
They’re talking about the original Star Wars.
The feeling you got when this Lord Vader appeared.
The feeling you got as you watched Luke watch a sunset on Tatooine, as if you’re there on another planet.
The feeling you got with all of the Tatooine sequences.
The mystery Alec Guiness brought to Ol’ Ben.
The feeling you got when the Falcon first flew…as if you were really on some spaceship trying to evade, and then the first lightspeed jump…
Everything about that first movie pulled you into this faraway galaxy that seemed “real”.
And Empire of course, continued this.
Then of course Star Wars went downhill. This is why the writers emphasize “original” Star Wars.
They’re taking this uncovered era of Star Trek, and have written a script with that same sensibility.. that you should feel like you’re there, in the early days, and see how the 1701 under Kirk came together at the same time.
“Star Trek 0″ as they’ve described it before: a perfect description.
And, I’m guessing you must be two people? Because the only moron I noticed writing previously in this thread…. well, anyway.
I’m just glad Bob and Alex are so enthusiastic. If they weren’t feeling good about it, they could just deliver the old Bermanism of “being pleased”.
#121
*Clears throat*
“See you doing that yes I can, Hmmmm?”
(Takes bow and hurriedly exits) ;-)
Ok I’m really getting tired of these rants by Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman on how great the movie is.
Really. Show us something.
Regarding Star Trek and space battles and dogfights:
Starfleet, although charged with protecting the Federation is for the most part an organization of exploration and scientific study and discovery. Those who said they have never seen Star Wars like “fighters” engage in dogfights in Star Trek are 100%. Before the development of the Defiant in DS9, it was stated that as a rule Starfleet did not build warships, but rather multipurpose ships that could both explore and defend themselves. The development of 100% military warships seemed too aggressive and against the spirit of what the Federation stood for. However, the continued Borg threat and then the Dominion War, forced the hand of the Federation to secretly develop the Defiant project and later to mass produce the craft and classify it as a new starship class. So presently the Federation does indeed have a warship that is very close to being a small “fighter” craft, but previously they didn’t—certainly not in the TOS era.
Danger out of ship is?
Yes.
When they set sail? I’m really excited yeah but how are they going to explain Chekov then?
Perhaps Doctor McCoy’s smuggling/charter friend was related to Yoda?
“Genesis allowed is not! Is planet forbidden!”
Yes, no?
Hehehehehehe
[125] Thank you for the historical insight, Sad Fan, but I guess we will not see TIE-Fighters of the Federation. Wasn’t the battle between the Reliant and the Enterprise in TWOK 1982 a slow dogfight, and a nod to Star Wars more action-oriented storylines?
#127—(sigh).
Since Khan apparently recognizes him in TWOK (if from nothing else, perhaps the ship’s non-classified personnel files which he may have absorbed while convalescing in Sickbay), Chekov was apparently on board the Enterprise very early on. That’s been canon since 1982.
Just because you did not (as a viewer of the television show) see him depicted on screen, doesn’t mean the character was not or could not be aboard. Maybe he worked the graveyard shift (typical for a junior officer anyway) very early on, or perhaps he wasn’t assigned to the bridge until a year into the 5 year mission.
Orci and Kurtzman do not need to ‘explain’ Chekov…Star Trek fans have been ‘explaining’ away such things on their own for decades…
why don’t they just paint flames on the side of the Enterprise? Maybe that is why the nacelles have those tricked out scoops…like on a hot rod to feed air directly into the carbs….maybe this Enterprise has hydraulics on it so it can go into low rider mode, too….Sulu presses a button and you hear the Low Rider song come on as they go cruising for Kirk’s chicks for the night…
hanging the fuzzy dice on the main viewscreen and grips the chain steering wheel hanging one arm out the porthole while bouncing the hydraulics “hey baby, check this out!” as they pass spacedock.
They should not have said anything about Star Wars.
DS9 had *a lot* of Star Wars style dogfights, and no one complained about them :)
“Chekov was apparently on board the Enterprise very early on. That’s been canon since 1982.”
Or just an honest mistake on the part of Nicholas Meyer, which people had to explain away to sleep at night. :o)
Bring “Star Wars” into “Star Trek”?? Well, I’m sorry guys, but this is the point where I say this will be a BAD movie. (Although I’m skeptical about this Abrams thing from early on…)
[134] And while we’re at it, Damon Lindelof should explain to us why Chekov did not recognize Harry Mudd in “I, Mudd”. The Movie is DOOMED be a horrible FAILURE without that!
WOW! Does this mean we are going to get to see the Enterprise make the Kessel Run in under five parsecs?
Those two are so cute. They look like Wally and the Beav.
While standing in the unemployment line in Hollywood, Jar Jar Binks was asked his thoughts about the next Star Trek movie having some Star Wars elements to it:
“Meesa thinkin tat they needa unemployed Gungan fora comic reliefa.”
_________________
In regards to Star Trek space battles being like naval battles:
I understand and appreciate the style, but realistically these ships can travel very fast and they should be flying around each other so quickly that they can’t even be seen by the naked eye.
Two examples come to mind. In Wrath of Kahn, the Reliant is coming in slowly to meet the Enterprise in the first engagement, but the stars are wizzing by. Meanwhile, in the next shot the ships are moving slowly towards each other.
Secondly, in almost every incarnation of Star Trek, you’ll have the bad guys trying to catch up to the good guys (or visa versa). Here they are flying around at warp speed, and you’ll have the bad guys ship just slowly gaining on the good guys’ ship. It is as though all of the ships in the galaxy are designed to fly within one mile per hour of each other.
When a Borg ship is trying to catch up to the Enterprise, it should either blow right passed the ship, turn around and be in front of it; or, it should not be able to catch up with the ship and fall quickly behind. At those speeds, a microscopic increase in warp speed would make one ship wooshing right by the other one.
Yeah, I know they do it for dramatic effect, but it’s not realistic. If the Enterprise has a maximum speed of say 9.8, but the enemy has a maximum speed of 9.81, that difference is enough for the bad guys to shoot pass the Enterprise, go on to the nearest star system, take a break for a cup of coffee, and go back and meet the Enterprise head on.
Some of the novels have space battles where ships go in and out of wrap while engaging the enemy, but we’ve never really seen that on screen. It is always within the framework of coming out of warp, becoming a slow, easy target, and shooting the crap out of each other.
I also wonder why when the shields are failing on an enemy ship, why doesn’t the Enterprise just transport a photo torpedo right inside the enemy’s ship and be done with it.
I love Star Trek, but you’ve got to check your thinking cap at the door sometimes to fully enjoy it (or any other piece of entertainment, for that matter).
The way I read Orci and Kurtzman here, they only say that they wanna introduce the dynamic of Star Wars space shots into Trek. The other stuff they say is very, very pleasing to “committed Trek fans”. At least it was to me, respecting the legacy and all that. And that more dynamic starship maneuvering works very well also with Starfleet ships has been demonstrated by New Voyages/Phase II.
No word about space fighters and huge battles in the interview.
And as someone who likes Star Wars, too, I wanna say: Hey, folks it’s not simply Star Wars = dogfights with one-man fighters.
#134. Ah, but see, through the miracle of filmmaking, mistakes BECOME canon. Doesn’t matter a whit what the intent was.
Of course Chekhov was on board from the start. He was just a wee willie winkie running around belowdecks, or something. Probably he was too young to drive.
#135. Nah, relax. There’s probably room in Star Trek for a little bit of rebel-style dogfighting. So long as K & O aren’t saying they aped the “fine acting,” “narrative nuance” and “brilliant dialogue” in the original Star Wars, I think we’re safe.
#138. Dang, I was thinking the same thing. I always feel like I oughta chuck those two under the chin. Abrams, too. All three chins at once. Call me Arex.
“WOW! Does this mean we are going to get to see the Enterprise make the Kessel Run in under five parsecs?”
Mandatory dork response: 12 parsecs. :) And in the SW Expanded Canon, it’s because the Kessel Run skirted a cluster of black holes, and Solo had to run so close to them, he went through bent space/time and wound up traveling a smaller distance, resulting in a quicker run.
I don’t like it either. I take my cue instead from Alec Guiness’ performance and its subtext, as well as Lucas’ explanation, that Han was being a typical BS artist who thought he was dealing with complete rubes who wouldn’t know what he was talking about. :o)
IMO we now know all we need to know about this movie, ” Star Trek Is The Story Of How The Enterprise Set Sail”
A great tag line if you ask me and if it is any where near as good as the novel “Enterprise – The first adventure” I think we’ll be fine.
hurrah, more talk about the movie and no pesky production stills of any sets, costumes or 1701’s…
that how we trek fans appreciate being regarded… like mushrooms
and how are mushrooms treated, class?
thats right, shitake heads.
#141. Wow, did I actually misspell “Chekov” as “Chekhov”? Maybe the bridge personnel will be starring in “Uncle Vanya.”
I think that Orci and Kurtzman would like nothing better than to give us some glimpses of stuff….
But I bet Paramount would sue their faces off….. In other words, they would get their arse sued off and it would then be placed where their head used to be.
Apologies to Simon Pegg if I have misquoted him. ;-)
- This ideea it’s a great one..but for me just the original STAR WARS series was great and not the last one..for example , EPISODE 1 was saved as a movie by Ewan McGregor ..a great actor..
“The Story Of How The Enterprise Set Sail…”
Hopefully told at a good pace. I would hope these elements do not crawl and bore people.
I am EXTREMELY happy to read the whole “Star Wars-y spaceship sequences” thing.
Make our jaws drop and our eyes water.
Make our hair stand up on the backs of our necks (the true litmus test as far as I’m concerned).
Make it epic, man. Make it epic.
The more I hear from these guys, the more apprehensive I get. They will stick to canon — even the books, but the books aren’t considered canon. This will be the story of how Enterprise set sail, yet I seem to remember the Big E’s first captain was Robert April, not Chris Pike.
And STAR WARS? What an ominous and frightening concept of trying to somehow infuse Trek with some aspect from those six ridiculous movies.
#145 – “Captain, there’s a dead seagull straight off the starboard bow.”
too right, #149, i hope they can distinguish between star wars; a fairy tale, and star trek; science fiction…
i loved star wars, but i also loved lords of the ring, which was also not science fiction.
they cant possibly leave bob april out of history…
can they?
hey paramount, how about releasing some imagery?
it was good enough for 20th century fox, it’s good enough for you.
[150] Jim Kirk was not called “Hornblower of space” for nothing!
“How the Enterprise Set Sail”
Four hundred-plus men flew in, to the San Francisco Yard
Beamed off of their ship, and here’s what they told their pards
“We’re callin’ everyone to ride along, to Antares Four
We can laugh our lives away and be free once more”
But no one heard them callin’, no one came at all
‘Cause they were too busy watchin’ other shows that fall
As an ion storm was blowin’, blowin’ like the WB
Four hundred-plus men flew off to history
Ride, captain ride, upon your mystery ship
Be amazed at the friends you have here on your trip
Ride captain ride upon your mystery ship
On your way to a world that others might have missed
Lucas…. No!
Tim Burton… No!
Spielberg… Perhaps.
David E. Kelley… Maybe.
P.T. Anderson… Sure.
Coen Bros… Yeah!
Robert April is only Canon if you consider TAS canon (I do). I’ll be ok if they overlook that.
152 – Kirk certainly got his “horn” “blown” (MOD, Feel free to delete if its too suggestive”
Robert April was only one small character in one episode of TAS which is not really considered CANON by anyone at paramount. Perhaps he was “Captain of Engineering” and designed the ship?? Just a thought.
@ 137. Marshall McMellon – LMAO!
“…those six ridiculous movies”
waitaminnut, wait – a – minnut!
You didn’t like Empire Strikes Back?! omg you need help. wtf
The only elements of TAS which have been made ‘canon’ are those referenced later in live action Trek, IMO. If the writers’ story depicts April as the first captain of the NCC-1701— fine, then that will be ‘canon’. If their story depicts Pike as the first captain—then that is the way it shall be.
On their own, I treat TAS episodes like novels, comics, and reference books. Until an element of TAS is made ‘canon’ by live action Trek (like those elements of Fontana’s “Yesteryear”, which have been repeatedly referenced in TNG, DS9, and ENT), it is “just for fun”.
#155 And the microprint on the viewscreens of the USS Defiant during Star Trek: Enterprise. Ah, if only Manny had been given a fifth season… could have had a E2 type episode with Archer propelled into the future again, this time to 2245… to see the legacy of the Enterprise.
At least a young Jim and Sam Kirk will be running off from the Riverside farm driving cross America to see the saucer section of Enterprise lifted up from the fleet yards into space. I savor what that’s gonna look like, these two young men sitting on a hillside, watching Enterprise itself set sail. Wonder if we’ll see Old Jonathan Archer in the distance with young Captain Robert April watching it too at the same time….
Even Gene Roddenberry said he didn’t consider Robert April to be Canon at all. In his opinion, Pike was the first captain of the NCC 1701 Enterprise. If April wasn’t mentioned in this movie.. no biggy. Roddenberry used April in his pitch for Trek.
In the episode “In A Mirror, Darkly” … didn’t Archer see in his biography that he supposedly died a day after the USS Enterprise was christened? But i doubt that they would even go there in this movie.
#162—Such a scene was written, in where Robert April was going to be referenced in that episode (which, in my mind, would have made it canon), but the scene was scrapped.
“The Counter-Clock Incident” stated that Robert April oversaw during the 2240s the construction of components for a Constitution-class starship at the San Francisco Naval Yards. April commanded the Enterprise from 2245 to 2250; his wife Sarah would serve as his chief medical officer.
Prior to this, the name Robert April was used by Gene Roddenberry for a prison chaplain in two episodes of “Have Gun — Will Travel”.
Make it real. I want to see the space-time fabric of the galaxy bend, expand, & collapse when they go to warp. I want to see ice shake off on the hull. I want to see the engines explode like the sun as they cross the time barrier. I want to see a hint of nervousness in the eyes of the crew when the ship prepares to move past the speed of light. That’s what Trek needs — an authentic feel, visually & emotionally, the way Dark Knight made Batman look more than just a fantasy.
Here’s another thing Star Trek and Star Wars had in common. If you listen real carefully you can hear the interior sound effect of the shuttlecraft in Ben’s hut when he first meets Luke and explains to him about the force and his background. In the remastered adition it’s so distracting it takes me out of the scene. But then many things they did in that version do that for me. I’ve been waiting for years to hear the back ground of that story. It needs to be a Ben Burt DVD extra sometime.
#164 – fakesteve…
Yes, but Roddenberry never considered TAS to be canon at all. So if Pike was the first Captain.. i don’t think it would be a loss or tragedy at all.
#165
Oh yes, you are totally right. We also need a sense of huge proportions. The Enterprise is *big*, it must be overwhelming. It is the most impressive and massive starship ever built. And when the big E voyage through space… man… that thing is *fast*!
Take this, take a deep story, take some good characters interaction and you have an enhanced Star Trek that will appeal to masses without being dumbed down.
I loved when I saw TMP at the theatre and the fly by when Kirk and Scotty were in the pod checking out the Enterprise… I loved the sense of scale it gave.. it looked like it was massive.. you had a real feel of just how massive and impressive this ship really is.
Yep, montreal paul, I totally agree. (And I don’t even consider Bakula canon ;))
#164—The only problem is that “The Counter-Clock Incident”, like the other episodes of TAS which failed to be referenced in live action Trek, is in a “canonical gray area”. Some accept them as ‘canon’, while others do not.
In my opinion, the only episode of TAS which has been ‘canonized’ (repeatedly referenced in live-action Trek) is “Yesteryear”, and rightly so, since it is a Spock bio–written by the writer who most contributed to that character’s backstory and development throughout TOS.
The rest are like comics and novels to me, including “The Counter-Clock Incident”.
As far as I am concerned, unless this film says otherwise, the Enterprise (NCC-1701) was commanded only by Pike, Kirk, Decker (then Kirk again), and Spock (then Kirk again).
If they ‘canonize’ April…fine. If not, my opinion will be the same as it ever was.
Joe, and Paulaner, you nailed it. And the “welder” trailer gives me the impression that they will pull it off…
Closettrekker, my guess is that Roddenberry came up with April for the first sales pitch and changed it later to Pike… so Pike is perfect with me.
#142- Oops. Yeah you’re right that was twelve. I’m a baaaaaaad Star Wars fan. ;)
Someone else mention but Mongo like to talk.
Solo make Kessel run in under 12 parsec. Parsec is measure of distance. Solo make improvement to Falcon hyperdrive, armament, secret hold, and rectenna scanning. But most important he soup up nav computer. Nav computer pick most efficient, shortest, and quickest route to destination. Kessel run normally take considerably more than 12 parsec. Solo sometime take chance by flying through hyperspace (subspace in Trek) too close to celestial body. But he good. Chewy good. Nav computer REALLY good.
All people who hating on Star Wars (original trilogy-at LEAST first two) should stop. That good stuff. Star Wars and Star Trek makers respect each other so fan should try.
“Make it real. I want to see the space-time fabric of the galaxy bend, expand, & collapse when they go to warp. I want to see ice shake off on the hull. I want to see the engines explode like the sun as they cross the time barrier. I want to see a hint of nervousness in the eyes of the crew when the ship prepares to move past the speed of light.”
WOW, MAN – - YOU NAILED THIS DEAD-ON
Good Talk from Mongo… Star Wars and Empire Great Stuff.
Mongo smart. Mongo make good sense on respect talk. Montreal Paul respect very much Star Wars stuff but like Trek better. George Lucas very much respect Roddenberry and Trek.
This movie is fueled by Fanboys from left and right…
I guess we can’t have a decent opinion on this without someone trying to outsmart the other by some illogical and borderline childish remarks…
This movie will be what it will be… it will probably be horrible for some and amazing for others…
Till then… maybe, we should get actual dates and more promo shots…
It’s just getting to become too crowded with all the fanboy’s regurgitated crap.
#179 This screed from someone named “Vulcan has no moons”? Pot, kettle. Say it isn’t so, Fanboy.
Yeeeesssss Vulcan has no moons.. this is the manifestation of our frustruation at having a finished (or near finished) Trek movie that has to sit on the shelf until next summer.. and the weather has just now started to cool off from summer.. which makes it a loooooooong time til opening day.. peoples is going to starts going craaaaazzzies hehe a heheheh a hahahHAHAHAHAHA!!!
It would be cool if this were the movie that convinces me to make the jump over to Blu-Ray.
I think it is totally cool that these guys are filling in cannon ‘blank spots” The question is will they do it in a way that makes sense with what went before and after. If you took the whole history of startrek as it is now known, would the new movie fit in very nicely, or would it look like a blotch of red in a pleasent field of green. These guys have said over and over again that they have paid attention to cannon, even going so far as to consider some of the better written more prominant books as cannon (or semi-cannon at the very least). The name of kirks mothe was only mentioned in a book, but they made that cannon.
The only thing I worry about at all is Wynnona Rider as Spock’s mother. How the hell is that going to play out. I’m hopeing that in the end, she will have only a small amount of screen time. I mean she’s a decent actor, but….Spock’s mother….It’s a little hard for me to swallow.
Otherwise. Bring it on. I…..can’t…..wait. Whooopee, Yahhoooo, and all that. (alright, sorry about the suden outburst of trekkie glee, but come on, I’m that guy watching and rewatching the old episodes, and movies wishing it was something new.)
Vulcan not have moon. That is planet that share orbit with Vulcan. There is also some that say Earth has no moon. By definition. Mongo read Spock’s World. It have interesting passage on formation of Vulcan system and planet it share orbit with. Diane Duane call planet T’Khut. Mongo know not canon but like explanation just same.
A moon can be satellite, but not every satellite is moon.
Also, is saying in 23rd century Earth. Vulcan say they have no moon. Human say that right, Vulcan has nightmare. That because T’Khut orbit so close to Vulcan.
Close enough to see the volcanoes erupting..
Thanks #168, #172, & #!76.
I have high hopes for authenticity in the film from Orci’s focus on the “feel” of the movie, & also JJ Abrams bringing Carolyn Porco onboard the imaging team.
The power needed to create a warp field is more energy that the sun can produce in its lifetime! I think manifesting awesome details like these on screen would really bring the Trek universe more to life.
Hasn’t the Enterprise been in service a few decades before Kirk gets it?
ensign joe mans
That right! Diane Duane explanation for reason both not crash into each other pretty good, too. Say Vulcan planet take all dense material from T’Khut during formation time. This make it have less gravity, no atmosphere, and no resulting life.
Mongo not smart but think he get it.
#188—According to “The Menagerie”. Pike was in command of the Enterprise at least 13 years before the first season of TOS (which most consider to be the first year of Kirk’s command, although that isn’t necessarily concrete). If Kirk takes command in 2265 (prior to “WNMHGB”), that means that the latest Pike could have been named captain of her was 2252. The question is, was he or wasn’t he the first captain?
In TAS “The Counter-Clock Incident”, Robert April is said to have commanded her in 2245. Whether that TAS episode is canon or not is debatable.
To further cloud the issue, Admiral Morrow says (in TSFS) that the Enterprise is 20 years old. It is difficult to believe that someone who just participated in the decision to decommissioned such a storied vessel as the Enterprise could be so unfamiliar with her age as to have been in error. The problem is, TSFS takes place 15 years after the first season of TOS.
Morrow’s dialogue in TSFS contradicts the previously established timeline of events in the command history of the Enterprise, whether April or Pike was her first captain. If TSFS takes place 15 years after “Space Seed”, then the Enterprise could only have been commissioned as late as 2260.
Morrow’s statement throws the timeline off either 8 or 15 years, depending upon whether you accept TAS, “TCCI” as canon or not.
Orci and Kurtzman’s story will have to contradict one or more of these three viewpoints. There is hardly a way around it.
It wouldn’t be the first contradiction of ‘canon’, and if Star Trek has a long term future, it probably won’t be the last. Orci and Kurtzman have probably made a decision as to which bit of dialogue (”The Menagerie” or “TSFS”) will be held as ‘canon’, and go off of that. I could be mistaken, but somehow I get the feeling that TAS, “TCCI” was ignored.
I say whatever they decide is fine… They are stuck between a canonical rock and a hard place!
Sorry for the typos and misplaced punctuation…
There should be a comma in the first sentence (where the period is) and ‘decommisioned’ should be ‘decommission’.
And that sentence should read, “…then the Enterprise could only have been commissioned as ‘early’ (not ‘late’) as 2260.
Those “typonians” struck me pretty hard in that post… :)
190 – Closettrekker
“To further cloud the issue, Admiral Morrow says (in TSFS) that the Enterprise is 20 years old. It is difficult to believe that someone who just participated in the decision to decommissioned such a storied vessel as the Enterprise could be so unfamiliar with her age as to have been in error. The problem is, TSFS takes place 15 years after the first season of TOS.”
- I always thought that there was perhaps a refit of something 20 years earlier (after Pike’s first mission) and that is what he was referring to. It always eased my mind in terms of the error. But then again.. perhaps Morrow was just rounding off the number and it could have very well been older.
Here’s a quote I like from the full interview:
“Damon too is a fanatic — we’re not going to drop the ball out of ignorance. Nobody can say that we don’t know Star Trek. There might be some things we do that people could question, where they go, “I hate them for some other reasons,” but they can’t say, “They didn’t know their stuff.” —Roberto Orci.
The writers and the producer are Star Trek fans.
‘Canon’ should not be the last thing fans should worry about with Bob and Alex, IMO. I think it means alot to them. Of course there will have to be “interpretations” (like I mentioned in #190) and bold decisions, especially where past Trek has been contradictory, but I think it will be okay.
It would be interesting to show the building of the Enterprise, go through to the end of the Pike years, and then show Kirk taking command.
#192—-I think Bennett and Nimoy just blew it. It was a dialogue blunder, nothing more, nothing less…And yet there it sits as a ‘canonical’ contradiction.
“…perhaps Morrow was just rounding off the number and it could have very well been older.”
That would be a pretty big liberty he was taking in “rounding off”, IMO.
8 years? Seems like he would ’round up’ to 30, not ‘down’ to 20.
I think it just proves that Star Trek has never been perfect in maintaining ‘canon’.
When TWOK opens with, “In the 23rd Century”, and in the same film, Khan says, “On Earth, 200 years ago (1996), I was a prince…with power over millions”, it is an error (especially when TVH further pins down the timeline as being the ‘late’ 23rd Century”).
I just don’t think that Abrams, Lindelof, Burk, Orci, and Kurtzman should be held to a higher standard than Meyer, Bennett, and Nimoy.
It could be worse, I’m sure. They could decide to put “Klingons” in ships painted like giant birds of prey and add a cloaking device! :) J/K…
There are going to have to be some ‘interpretations’
and ‘decisions’…that’s all. It will be fine.
STAR WARS is a fantasy movie. It’s not even science fiction.
But I take their comment to mean that things will look look aged, that not all aliens will be humanoid, and that the definition of ‘action and adventure’ will be expanded beyond submarine battles, stylized fist fights and spy missions.
STAR WARS’ “blasters” as opposed to “phasers” simply create a more dramatic style of gunfight.
Space battles break down like this:
STAR WARS: Small ships engage in WWII-style dog fights. Large ships are attacked like the siege of a castle fortress. [
BATTLESTAR GALACTICA: Dogfights, with Aircraft Carrier-style large ship combat. ]
STAR TREK: Large ships fight one another along the lines of sailed vessels in Napoleonic Wars.
Obviously they’d be in serious crap for using blaster-style weapons, but ship-to-ship combat was always limited by effects. For example, the Enterprise should be able to fire photon torpedos at will, dozens at a time, in complex patterns, with all sorts of specialized blast patterns–for disabling shields, non-fatal damage, Daisy Cutters, total destruction. When shields are disabled, Phasers should be able to slice an opponent’s Nacelles off.
I also think any form of dogfighting in this movie would be soundly rejected and that KO wouldn’t go there.
For my money, when I buy my back-to-back tickets to see STAR TREK twice at the Chinese or the Dome in LA, I want to see MORE NON-HUMANOID ALIENS. That’s the weakest link in STAR TREK… and we all know it deep down.
Other things: I’m rereading PRIME DIRECTIVE to try and divine some of what Orci loves about that book. The Reeves-Stevenses propose little things, like the fact that not all species, and not all humans, will have grown up with the same gravity, air pressure, breathing “air” mixture.
PRIME DIRECTIVE opens with a vast mining/terraforming operation inside an asteroid that shows us a lot about the Tellarites and the risky “blue collar” jobs of the 23rd century.
PRIME DIRECTIVE also describes a Han Solo-like freighter, piloted by a former Starfleet Commander who hit her career ceiling.
Mix all that in with the STAR WARS comments, the “Under Construction” teaser… and you start to get an idea of where they’re headed.
Star Trek’s timeline really holds up well in the long run, though. As long as the story is awesome, the little stuff won’t bother anyone.
Closettrekker…
I agree completely. Even in TOS there were many canon issues. This continued into each and every movie and series made. One cannot stick to every minor canon detail. But I do believe that they will do the best they can. I am not worried in the slightest.
In my opinion they probably have not brought enough Star Wars into Trek.
199 – Myrth
how so?
199 – Myrth
“In my opinion they probably have not brought enough Star Wars into Trek.”
How so?
196. Jeffries Tuber
“Space battles break down like this:
STAR WARS: Small ships engage in WWII-style dog fights. Large ships are attacked like the siege of a castle fortress. [
BATTLESTAR GALACTICA: Dogfights, with Aircraft Carrier-style large ship combat. ]
STAR TREK: Large ships fight one another along the lines of sailed vessels in Napoleonic Wars. ”
Great post! The only thing I would change is to place Battlestar above
Star Wars, to show a decending order of battle tactic sophistication, with an exception provided for Star Trek the Original Series.
25. Spocks brain 31. Green-Blooded-Bastard 32. Dennis Bailey
All great points!
Space battles in Trek need to show the science behind space travel, as well as a Starships fighting abilities. I have to beat a dead horse here and give TOS the hands down winner in that area. Maybe a dramatic composition of ships was not shown onscreen way back then, but in general, I always had the feeling that the TOS Enterprrise was in space.
In fact I REALLY like how they showed the stars. They seemed just the right colot and contrast. A bit glitzy, like all the rest of the effects.
In the FIRST show – The Cage – the Enterprise’s main viewer showed planetoids zipping past the ship. The production was smart enough to know that space is a void, and showing speed is very difficult if there is nothing to show scale. But they easily side stepped that issue by incorporating that simple special effect.
With today’s special effects that idea can surely be improved upon. For instance, the Enterprise has navigation deflectors. As I understand that, it is an invisible electromagnetic force that sweeps out ahead of the ship and nudges space debis aside. How about showing a shower of debris cascading away from the ship and over the camera as the ship speeds away. Or maybe, like Voyager ‘tried to show us,’ in their show opening, the nebula gases washing away from the ship (i would have placed the event horizon much further ahead of the Voyager).
For the crew of the Enterprise, a space battle would probably be best displayed as techical holograms on the main screen, perhaps a targeting scanner can show a long range shot in one portion of the screen and in another a ‘actual size’ distant shot. Some of the many other bridge screens would most likey be visible in shots behind the crew. Add those in to to help the viewer understand the action.
A dramtic mix of readouts on the main screen, crew interactions, and closeup exterior shots of the ships would help flesh all of this out. Enterprise was doing well in this area for a while. But their bridge was really to staic for my tastes. Spock’s new science station will obviously be a huge FX thing to see in operation (at least I hope,) on the bridge.
Add to all of that, the BIG opportunity, to allow the crew to actually see through a huge transparent alluminum bridge dome above them!
A promised vision that has been with Trek since its opening shot.
That would really make arrivals at new worlds a much more dramtic and interactive experience on the bridge. How great would that shot be? The bridge crew looking up at the new world as it passes overhead. That would add great realism and dimension to the scene!
Space is HUGE! Starships would typically be thousands, or even millions of kilometers away from each other in a space battle. TOS always seemd to handle that nicely. Especially the early eps. I really liked how it was handled Balance of terror with its use of torpedos, the effect of the explosions, and dramtic musical score – that was very cool. Which brings to mind another space oddity. Sound. TOS always relied on the musical score to relate an exloding shop. See Day of the Dove and its exploding Klingon starship for an example.
By the way, in the episode Day of the Dove, Kang mentions that the Klingon/Federation peace treaty (Organian?) has been in effect for three years. Placing this episode toward the end of Trek’s 5 year mission?.
Where does that leave TAS in cannon lore?
That’s my two credits worth for now!
The Women!
#202—”Where does that leave TAS in (canon) lore?”
IMO…right where it should be—with the novels, comics, and reference books.
How about the cast pic or a shot of the big “E” by Christmas, how say you Roberto?
#204—It’s not up to Bob, but he did say on a very recent thread that we would not have to wait until Christmas (to see something new, anyway).
That would be the latest ‘Fringe’ thread…
“Or just an honest mistake on the part of Nicholas Meyer, which people had to explain away to sleep at night. :o)”
It was obviously just a mistake — but easily explained away. Walter used to joke about it at cons — with such a great part, he wasn’t going tell them that he joined the show later AFTER the Khan episode.
124. The A-Man – October 3, 2008
“Ok I’m really getting tired of these rants by Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman on how great the movie is.
Really. Show us something.”
It’s not a rant. It’s an interview. Ask ,answer..you get the picture.
Something is coming before Christmas. Other than that… wait.
113. The Sceptic Trekie! – October 3, 2008
How about these two moron writers actually shut up about Star Trek… are they THAT nervous?”
“Show us something so we can judge for our selves!!”
How about some common courtesy and manners. The name calling and tirade placed you somewhere in the 14 year old range. Do you see other regular posters call anyone names? It’s a movie, not a reason for you to be insulting.
BSG has always been a Star Wars rip off show. Even the new series is SW like
196
Trek is fantasy too. It’s not true sci fi.I love it but don’t start with the argument that it’s is more “real” than Star Wars – it’s filled with fake science and plot devices to make it work for dramatic effect. The list is endless and we could debate it til the 23rd century, but fact are facts and Trek is sci fantasy not sci fi
Biff
I think the line between Sci-Fi and Fantasy… I do believe the term has been changed to Sci-Fi/Fantasy. Will that make everyone happy now? Star Wars, Star Trek, BSG … ALL sci-fi/fantasy. now MOVE ON.
oops.. forgot a line in there…
“I think the line between Sci-Fi and fantasy … is very fine.”
my apologies…
TAS was set aside for a while because of the shutdown of Filmation and the legal morass of all its licensed properties, which included Star Trek. THAT was the reason writers weren’t allowed to make reference to anything in TAS, not because it was considered “non-canon”, regardless of what Richard Arnold might think.
Once that matter was cleared up to everyone’s satisfaction, the TAS references started filtering in, and we eventually got the series on DVD.
So, after a bit of a runaround, TAS is now canon, for better or worse.
Now, SHOW US THE DAMN SHIP ALREADY!!
Oh, how I wish that someone would throw money at David Lynch to make any Star Trek film that he wanted, sans canon, consistency, or what has gone before.
I’d buy that for a dollar.
PS: Would someone please fix that fluorescent light in Transporter Room 3? It’s flickering again.
214. Captain Robert April
Your motivations for that statement are obvious and questionable, Captain.
Krik Semaj & Montreal Paul:
I didn’t realize I’d touch a nerve with the scifi vs. fantasy statement. But I’m willing to back my argument up.
STAR WARS is a mythic fantasy set in the past and written in the tradition of Medievalist Scholars JRR Tolkein, Roger Zelazny and all of their imitators. The central and only idea of the original trilogy is “The Force”–a new age spiritual amalgam of many religions. None of the central plots in STAR WARS stem from or are moved forward by science–not Luke’s search for his father, not Han’s redemption from a mercenary life, not Leia’s political and military campaign, not Obi-Wan’s redemption from his failed mentorship of Anakin. In all of these cases and in many other ways, science is simply a means to the fantasy ends.
STAR TREK is operatic science fiction, purporting to be the future of our world, written in the tradition of H.G. Wells and Robert Heinlein. The central idea of the franchise is that human beings survive and thrive through continuous advancements in science, while at the same time being challenged by the limitations of their own understanding of science. The central characters’ dilemmas are all fundamentally science based: Kirk’s struggle with the Prime Directive, Spock’s struggle with his Human/Vulcan heritage, and McCoy’s struggle to remain human in a universe where we are neither alone nor superior. From psychology to particle physics, anthropology to Einstein, science is either an end unto itself or interwoven with philosophy [the science of love].
As someone once mentioned to me, the difference between scifi and fantasy is the difference between LE MORTE D’ARTHUR and THE ONCE AND FUTURE KING. In the French version, Merlin is magic. In the English version, Merlin is a time traveller.
The confluence of science fiction and fantasy is okay for children and Frenchmen, but I demand that STAR TREK be held to the higher standards of science fiction. I’m no canonista, but our adherence to rules, history and consistent, plausible science is what has sustained TREK through cancellation, marginalization, and the highs and lows of the features and spinoffs.
So, no, I won’t being moving on. You know why we like STAR TREK? Because it’s better.
218.
I agree it’s held to a somewhat higher standard, and I too like it more – much more. That aside Trek is still in the sci fi fantasy realm. I wouldn’t use Heinlen to support your argument. He wrote a lot of fantasy based work. Clark, in my opinion was the king of true hard SciFi (& I’ve read, and own a library full of works by both authors and more). He loved Trek, but thought of it as a fantasy based Sci Fi show. I’ll stand by his opinion any day.
Swooshing ships, faster(much much much faster) than light speed travel, shape shifting, tecnhobabble nonsense, telekinetic powers, mind melds, & a whole lot more. Trek had them all.
Trek never claimed to be hard Sci Fi. It was a set of morality plays set in a mythical future. Great stuff. Don’t get me wrong I love the show, but a true Science Fiction show would never make it. It would be a bore to mass audiences.
I have never put a message on here b4, however i grew up with TNG and the movies and reruns of TOS. I applaud the new film and am tired of the whole canon argument. Who cares! If this film is to be a success, trekkies and non-trekkies need to get behind it 110% otherwise trek will be consigned to the history books.
It can survive but needs to adapt keeping the basic principles of TOS and TNG, relationships, action and excitement and a genuine feeling for the crew and their experiences.
Please stop moaning about the canon, let the experts bring this franchise kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. I for one can’t wait for it!
Trekkies – you do yourselves no favours by being canon obsessed. They will respect it but if some creative license is used to tell a great story with great action and effects, who cares.
Krik, I wouldn’t call it Hard SciFi either. But pushing scientific speculation beyond the realm of theory in to imagination just doesn’t qualify as fantasy in my book.
I respect your points, but I think you’re setting too high a standard for SciFi.
Compare the Tricorders and data pads a Yeoman would hand Kirk to sign with this, which just went in to production in Germany: http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/09/plastic-logics.html
Wouldn’t that have qualified as fantasy up until the 90s? [ie, we had no technological basis upon which to believe eInk (the Amazon Kindle technology) was possible].
So let’s call Star Trek “Soft” sci-fi. There are elements of ‘fantasy’, but it is much closer to the genre of science fiction.
I agree with #218, in that ‘Star Wars’ is more akin to LOTR than Trek.
‘Star Trek’ is based upon a vision of our future, where our history is Star Trek history. While Trek does make some “leaps” (as Krik Semaj pointed out with regard to certain plot devices, etc.) here and there, it is far from being the pure fantasy that is ‘Star Wars’.
I think that ‘Alien’ and ‘2001:ASO’ are better examples of “hard” sci-fi, but they are in turn more akin to Trek than ‘Star Wars’.
It is an old argument, and one that leaves much open to interpretation. I think that something can have elements of both, yet lean much closer to one side than the other. Such is the case, IMO, with ‘Star Trek’.
- NEMESIS and F.C. are inspired from STAR WARS…wich was a great series because has that universality feeling ..
179: Maybe it’s a good idea to try to honor your nickname, ‘Vulcan has no moon’, and embrace the concept of IDIC.
I, too, find some posts here annoying, but I needn’t reply to those. I pick those I find interesting and try to discuss with people I feel have something to say.
215. Captain Robert April – October 3, 2008
Now, SHOW US THE DAMN SHIP ALREADY!!
you forgot to stomp your feet that time
i hope this movie isnt a ‘lets do anything to keep this franchise alive’ attempt by the studio. lets face it they reached the end of the road with nemesis but there is big money at stake here.
I hope they are talking figuatively when they mention Star Wars-otherwse they really will reach out to a new audience -but not star trek fans!
Greg
UK
I have to disagree re: SW being of the same ilk of LOTR, etc. It’s a rollicking good old popcorn yarn which, at least in the first trilogy, does not tale itself seriously.
Yes, it uses some universal elements of mythic, heroic storytelling, etc., but it’s an overly simple story which is meant to be FUN.
When Lucas shat out the second trilogy, well, then the fun was gone.
After we talked a lot about parsec and TWOK, here is a line from my favorite academy test scenario: “Mayday, mayday. Kobayashi Maru, twelve parsecs out of Altair VI …”
For those that freaked on the headline and didn’t read the interview, please do so.
Jar-Jar Binks does not play an ensign, droids won’t wander the corridors and the Force won’t be with us.
Some get all worked up over so little.
“Dammit Jim, I’m not getting it that Tauntaun — it smells like a bucket of rancid gagh!”
#226 Classic , there is no Franchise – it is Dead !!! Paramount put nothing into this Venture !! JJ has picked it Up !!!!
When Orci and Kurtzman mentioned Star Wars, I don’t think they were talking about plot.
They were talking about the style of movie. Staw Wars were epic action films, while a lot of Trek (like TNG episodes) were almost completely dialogue-based.
So when they talk about bringing a bit of Star Wars into it, they’re only talking about making it a bit more exciting and action-packed, which I’m in favour of.
Clearly no one’s going to change the fundamentals of what Trek is about. They said themselves in that very interview that making sure they stuck to the rules of what makes Trek great is more important than canon. And I would wholeheartedly agree with that.
231. Darfyn – October 4, 2008
“#226 Classic , there is no Franchise – it is Dead !!! Paramount put nothing into this Venture !! JJ has picked it Up !!!!”
It’s !!! a Joint!!!! Venture!!! Paramount… has !!! invested $$$!!!
Is your keyboard stuck??? This punctuation fetish you have is dam tough to read!!!
Yes !!!! Yes !!!! Its Joint !!!! AdVenture with Paramount !!!!!
WHOA !!!! I have LOST Keyboard CONTROL !!!!! WHAAA !!!!!
#214—”So, after a bit of a runaround, TAS is now canon, for better or worse.”
It’s not that simple. TAS is very much in a canon gray area. ‘Canon’ is not something tangible. Releasing TAS on DVD (and I own the set) doesn’t make it ‘canon’ to me, and I think it is safe to say that many fans feel the same way about it. It’s fun to me, just like one of the non-canon novels, but I still define ‘canon’ as what is depicted in live-action Trek.
If the writers of the latest Star Trek film decide to canonically validate something depicted in TAS, then it becomes canon if that particular scene or bit of dialogue makes it to the screen.
Case in point: So many elements of Dorothy Fontana’s “Yesteryear” have been referenced in subsequent live-action Trek that I would concede the entire episode as ‘canon’.
There was a plan to do the same (in ENT’s “In A Mirror, Darkly”) for “The Counter-Clock Incident” and its claim of a Captain prior to Christopher Pike in command of the NCC-1701. However, the scene was (for whatever reason) scrapped. Therefore, in my opinion, that epsiode remains ‘non-canon’.
Where TAS and ‘canon’ are concerned, it remains subjective. There is no officially sanctioned manual on what is ‘canon’ and what is not.
I think of TAS in the same category as novels, comics, and reference books.
Put it in a live-action Trek production, and I’ll call it ‘canon’.
234. Darfyn – October 4, 2008
As I thought.
Please try complete sentences to be understood. Thank you.
and clean out the gunk holding down you exclamation key
HHAAAooooWalllyyyyWallllyyyy EEEooooPPPPPAAARRGG!!!!!
EEEeeeee WWWWOOOO WWWWOOOO WWWWOOOO !!!!!!
GGGRRRRRrrrrrrrr GGGUUUU GGGUUUUUU GOOOOO !!!!!!
GOOOO !!!!!! GGGRRRRRUUUUUUNNNNNUUUUUTTTT!!!!!!
NNNUUUUTTTTTYYYYY NNNUUUUTTTTTYYYYYYTTTTT !!!!!!
EEEeeeeeOOOOooooOOOOPPPHHHUUUURRRTTTTAA!!!!!
Ahem, thanks Darfyn! Well, in the meantime I went back to read the Novels (which I consider NonCanon). After I started with Prime Directive I will follow it up with Memory Prime from 1988 by the Reeves-Stevenses and then Dian Duanes books. Considering canon, I am on the same page with Closetrekker. But there is still some time to burn till next may, and what was good for Orci should be fine for me ;))
Sorry for That-Out-Blurt !!!!! Xai was Fixing My-Icky-Keys !!!!! AAaaHemm !!!!!
Well , Steve , all of those are good Canon books !! What do you think of Enterprise the Series ? Some don’t accept that as Canon ? Some of the Series are now novels , and their sequels , also novels , coming out ? There doesn’t seem to be a crossover between that and the new Movie ?!
Good question, Darfyn. Regarding Enterprise, if we follow Closettrekkers rule, was shot with actors on film and video, so it must be canon. I would feel better if the whole thing would have been like Manny Cotos season 4, of course. But we don’t want to start that Brannon Braga thing again, now that he has a nice new series to tear down ;)
I am quite sure that Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman will not reference ENT, for a couple of reasons. And regarding the canonity of books, well, in Memory Prime for example, Zefrem Cochrane is from Alpha Centauri and called Zeyafram Co’akran, not from Montana, as later established canon calls for. But it’s all classic Star Trek storytelling, like Prime Directive, which we know is a favorite of Roberto, that stated that the threshold a species has to cross was not Warpspeed, but subspace radio.
But for me the difference between canon and non-canon is often quality, and the feeling that the writers were really into Trek with their hearts. Which is the reason that a lot of Bragas stuff is not canon for me at all.
#240—”What do you think of Enterprise the Series ? Some don’t accept that as Canon”
I think you have to establish a ‘line’ somewhere…For me, it’s live-action Trek which is produced at Paramount (who does own the rights to the franchise).
#241—Actually, there was an article here about a little over a year ago in which either Lindelof or Orci (I think) said that they would acknowledge ENT in STXI(Zero), although it was unclear in what manner.
And I agree. I love what Manny Coto was doing with ENT. It actually felt as if it was leading up to TOS, whereas before it felt more like a prequel to TNG.
fakesteve:
I’ve just finished PRIME DIRECTIVE and picked up SPOCK’S WORLD. I remember MEMORY PRIME from its original publication, when I put off buying it because of an ultra-cheesy cover and ultimately thought it was among the best I’d read.
Divining Orci’s intent and effect on STAR TREK from his book choices is a lot of fun, and probably worthy of its own thread on this site.
PRIME DIRECTIVE begins four months after Kirk and the “Enterprise 5″ have been drummed out of Starfleet following the destruction of Talin IV–a planet with 2B beings [Saurian humanoids]. Kirk is working in a mine. McCoy has been holed up in a cabin in Yosemite. Uhura and Spock have taken principled stands within Starfleet and the UFP. Sulu and Chekov have enlisted with an Orion pirate in an effort to ultimately steal his ship.
Eventually we learn that the Enterpise had been urgently summoned to Talin IV by the FCO [First Contact Office: an independent agency within the UFP]. Talin IV was on the brink of nuclear holocaust, so the planet’s very precise ranking on the Richter Scale [determining progress toward suitability for first contact, or preservation via the Prime Directive] had become extremely urgent. 100+ FCO staff were stationed on a well-camoflauged moonbase, sifting and analyzing public media and confidential military channels to determine their ability to pick up subspace transmissions and leave their planet. Ultimately, the planet is destroyed by a nuclear holocaust and the Enterprise 5 are blamed for their violation of the PD. [I'm deliberately spoiling the bare minimum for this post.]
PRIME DIRECTIVE is notable for its emphasis on science in ship operations, command strategy, Starfleet operations and relations between species. The depiction of an Orion vessel, a hodge-podge of standard and salvaged parts called the “Queen Mary”, is particularly telling. The Orion captain keeps the artificial gravity off to save credits, then turns it ‘on’ to Orion standard–more than 2x Earth standard. The ship is lit in extremely bright blue [standard Orion] light. Also for cost, the ship uses fissile material rather than dilithium crystals and matter-anti-matter reactions. There is no transporter, save a top secret unit in the Orion shuttle. Science is also key to Scotty’s conflict with a young Lt. Styles and Sulu’s ingenuity in tactical maneuvers.
Although I haven’t read enough to state this authoritatively, I also feel that PRIME DIRECTIVE was the beginning of what we now see as a whole franchise of STAR TREK–the stories of the other social systems within and without Starfleet. PRIME DIRECTIVE describes Starfleet officers who don’t make captain of a Constitution Class starship, the thoroughly non-military FCO, and an underclass of miners who do the dangerous work of terraforming asteroids. The book opens from the clever and charming perspective of a Tellarite miner. We spend a few days in Berkeley and learn that UC Berkeley has been among the most conservative Universities for 200 years.
But most importantly, we see a bit of pluralism in the political basis for Starfleet General Order 1: The Prime Directive. The essential philosophical debate of this story is whether the Prime Directive is ethically justifiable when it means that Starfleet stands by and watches a genocide or a preventable disaster. To what extent is the Prime Directive simply a fig leaf for other peoples’ suffering and fiscal conservatism within the UFP? This is Spock’s philosophical drama in the book, so it also breaks along his own logic vs. emotion faultlines.
I’d love to hear from others, but my sense is that PRIME DIRECTIVE indicates a more serious approach to STAR TREK than the exigencies of a 5 act, 48min drama allow. The future is seen in higher resolution, with more layers of politics and economics. Had I read this when it was originally published, the plot similarities to TSFS and TVH would have been glaring, but I highly recommend this read to my fellow trekmovie bloggers who are jonesing for the new movie. See abebooks.com … they have a ton of cheap copies for sale of this out of print book.
Yep, I agree Tuber, the ReevesStevenses really created a great read with PD. Breaking up the standard formula and scattering the crew was a smart move, and I really loved the cats of the admiralty ;))
A da mi ga lagano popušite, ha?
what, now we have slowenian/serbian comedians here, too?
If you want to be funny, talk english.
#243 J-Tuber that’s a very intellectual synopsis ! Great analysis ! I would like to hear more of this ! Canon ?! If you’re a book reader , there are plenty of discrepancies and a lack of complete story thoroughness . I like the Shatner books , and they are bill’s interpretation of his time . Some readers avoid them . In recent discussions in another forum , some said they only accept the movies and series produced (not Enterprise!) and don’t consider the books to be Canon ?! I think Abrams Star Trek is going to be more of an Orion Adventure ! I think the serbian is saying he is getting excited about the coming movie ! Spolni !!
The orginal Star Wars was incredibly fun. The original series was incredibly fun. The 24th century Trek was often boring, pretentious and “talky”. I hopeful these guys willl deliver the goods, Trek hasn’t been fun in awhile, it’s WAY overdue.
#87 Yeah hopefully “Star Trek’s” (2009) Tomatometer is gonna be higher than “Eagle Eye’s,” which was like what? 27% = (
I’m hoping, fingers crossed, 95% for Trek, equal to the Bond reboot
220. UK tony
WELCOME ABOARD!!!
As you can tell from SOME of these posts, we could sure use your intelligent viewpoint here in this forum.
Agreed let them tell their Trek story.
They certainly DESERVE the chance this time. AND its looking good too!
Hopefully youve seen all of TOS episodes. If not looky here!!!!
http://video.aol.com/show/star-trek/112182
There not the remastered versions, but that’s OK. Trust me!
Thanks again for posting!
By the way, where is “the Cage,” AOL?
250 hi, thanks for the response. I did not put it on here to be controversial but, as you say, some of the comments are unbelievable, and, in my view, alienate the very audience the new guys at the helm are trying to attract.
Long live ST and please trekkies spread the word to new viewers that this film will be different, don’t bemuse them with the history, they don’t live it like you do (and really dont care)! And to some of the negative comments I’ve read over the past few months on these blogs, 1 – you dont seem very trekkie to me 2 – you are living in the past 3 – the past is just that, forget it, its gone! 4 – trek will change and will (hopefully) go mainstream 5 – for those who want canon to be followed religiously, say goodbye to trek and enjoy the reruns, its all you’ll get to enjoy.
#134—”Or just an honest mistake on the part of Nicholas Meyer, which people had to explain away to sleep at night.”
There was nothing to preclude the character from being aboard the ship during the adventures depicted in the first season, so whether it is ‘perceived’ by Koenig or anyone else as a ‘mistake’ or not is irrelevant. It actually isn’t a mistake, regardless of intent.
While Koenig wasn’t a part of the cast until the second season, there was never anything in the dialogue of any episode that indicated his character was assigned to the Enterprise at any specific time.
The point was, even if Orci and Kurtzman’s story calls for Chekov to be a member of the Enterprise officer compliment at the beginning of the 5 year mission, it will not violate canon. Intentional or not, the scene on the surface of Ceti Alpha V made Chekov’s presence aboard the Enterprise during the events of “Space Seed” a given—hence the statement that it has been ‘canon’ since 1982.
And ‘canon’ doesn’t keep me awake at night, and I’m sure it doesn’t affect the sleep patterns of very many others either. It is not as if it took alot of thought to make that argument. It’s very simple, actually.
#252—”…for those who want canon to be followed religiously, say goodbye to trek and enjoy the reruns, its all you’ll get to enjoy.”
Obviously, ‘canon’ is important to the writers of this film as well. Now “religiously”? I’ve seen alot of discussions about what is or is not canon, and I even enjoy participating in them, but I think you’re being a bit harsh on those of us who (like the writers themselves) enjoy continuity and making things fit within the established fictional timeline, etc.
‘Canon’ is supposed to be (and always has been for me) something fun. I always keep it in proper perspective. What is most important has never been continuity, but the quality of stories and the wonderful characters. However, that doesn’t mean that ‘canon’ will ever cease to be fun.
The world did not end for fans with canonical errors in TWOK and TSFS. Regardless of how much some fans complain when things like that happen, they never say “goodbye” to Trek. There’s no reason to believe that will change with fan reviews of this film’s adherence (or non-adherence) to canon.
Sure thing uk Tony!
Are you in England? If so, then here’s a fine Hello from across the pond
to ya! With great TREK principles like IDIC, I really don not understand some of the comments around here either. ; (
Hopefully we will all get it right and it will not take 200 years to do so.
“There was nothing to preclude the character from being aboard the ship during the adventures depicted in the first season, so whether it is ‘perceived’ by Koenig or anyone else as a ‘mistake’ or not is irrelevant. It actually isn’t a mistake, regardless of intent.
While Koenig wasn’t a part of the cast until the second season, there was never anything in the dialogue of any episode that indicated his character was assigned to the Enterprise at any specific time.”
There’s no “perception” involved. It was a mistake in the real world but as I said, easily explained away — as you mentioned by him simply being below decks as it were. It’s relevant to the extent that we are discussing canon and errors that happen cause the storytellers are human and there are just so many hours of Trek to follow. Nicholas Meyer did watch all 79 eps of TOS yet this error occurred. I do worry that our new group is on the record as having not watched everything TOS-wise and were more TNG fans. I hope something big isn’t missed and messed up.
#255—”There’s no “perception” involved. It was a mistake…”
I have to disagree. Since there was no actual contradiction in continuity, I find it difficult to interpret the scene on the surface of Ceti Alpha V as a “mistake”. Meyer simply established for the first time that Chekov was aboard the Enterprise during the events of “Space Seed”, however accidentally.
The notion that Koenig not being a part of the cast being the same thing as Chekov not being aboard the Enterprise is a “perception” of continuity inconsistency— not an ‘actual’ one.
“Nicholas Meyer did watch all 79 eps of TOS yet this error occurred.”
Once again, if there was never a contradiction, how was there an “error”?
“I do worry that our new group is on the record as having not watched everything TOS-wise and were more TNG fans. I hope something big isn’t missed and messed up.”
Lindelof, Abrams, and Kurtzman are on record as having not watched all of TOS. I don’t think that is the case with Bob Orci (although as you said, Orci, Kurtzman, and Lindelof have all admitted a tendency to lean toward TNG), and although we know that Burk is a Trek fan, we do not have his own preference on record. Abrams is the only one who is not especially a fan, although he has indicated that he is more familiar with the TOS-era characters. There was also a list made public (very early on) of TOS episodes that the “Supreme Court” had viewed as ‘research’ in preparation for making this film.
Furthermore, if Abrams has hired a team of “experts” just to make sure the right person is carrying a tricorder on the proper side of his/her body, I think it is safe to say that they are doing everything within reason to ensure that nothing significant is “missed and messed up”.
And I’m not sure how helpful seeing all 79 episodes is, believe it or not.
If anyone should have been familiar with them, it is Nimoy, who (as the director of TSFS) allowed a pretty big “gaffe” in Bennett’s script to make it on screen. Admiral Morrow, despite having just participated in the decision to decommission one of the most storied vessels in all of Starfleet history, isn’t even aware of its age?
His “The Enterprise is 20 years old…” statement completely contradicts “The Menagerie” (which established that Pike was in command of the Enterprise at least 13 years prior to those events), as well as TWOK (which establishes that “Space Seed” was 15 years earlier). The dialogue in those two productions indicates that the Enterprise would (at a minimum) be at least 28 years old. For those who insist that TAS, “The Counter Clock Incident” is canon, the disparity is even greater.
‘That’ was a mistake, and one made by someone who not only has seen every episode, but participated in each of them as well…
For Surak’s sake, if TWOK isn’t canon then nothing is. It’s the most sacred two hours of TREK ever put on screen. Khan remembers Chekov, therefore he was on the Enterprise. Those two helmsman positions are command-track jobs, not necessarily the most senior on the ship but certainly among the most desired in all of Starfleet.
So Kirk showed up with Sulu in place and handpicked his buddy Gary Mitchell, who became a god, dug a hole marked “James R. Kirk” that ended up being his own grave So Kirk took his time finding a replacement for his friend and promoted from within.
Chekov being Russian and having a persistent accent could very plausibly have caught 20th Century warlord Khan’s attention–superior intellect or not.
#257—Khan could simply have recognized Pavel’s non-classified personnel file through absorbing the information in the ship’s computers.
It seems reasonable that an image of Chekov’s ‘face’ would be a part of that file…and Khan never forgets a face.
“Since there was no actual contradiction in continuity, I find it difficult to interpret the scene on the surface of Ceti Alpha V as a “mistake”. Meyer simply established for the first time that Chekov was aboard the Enterprise during the events of “Space Seed”, however accidentally.”
Meyer himself discusses the error on the DVD commentary. He likens it to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s inconsistencies in the Sherlock Holmes novels. Heh, personally I think it’s amazing that Meyer wrote the script in less than 2 weeks without credit and it was so good, cobbling together parts from all the scripts that came before. I was a fan of his pre-Trek — I loved “Time After Time” and that he was a Holmes fan, a favorite of mine.
For canon-nit picking buffs there was a lot of discussion in the 80s of exactly “when” good lad Pavel must have arrived given TWOK. In Season 2 he didn’t recognize Harry Mudd in “I, Mudd” so a lot of folks placed his arrival sometime after Season 1’s “Mudd’s Women” (Ep 7 by air date) and “Space Seed” (Ep 23). Course, he may have not focused on Harry Mudd with those women running loose on the ship and that’s why he didn’t remember him! ;)
“That’ was a mistake, and one made by someone who not only has seen every episode, but participated in each of them as well…”
Being an actor in a show doesn’t guarantee total recall — heck they all joke at cons about not remembering stuff about the original show. (I will say Nimoy seems to remember more than most; Shatner has repeatedly said he remembers almost nothing.) There are tons of continuity errors throughout Trek despite everyone’s best intentions — some more glaring than others; some that didn’t affect anything at all. I’ve always thought it is/was an incredibly daunting task to write for Trek, especially as more and more shows and movies piled on.
“Lindelof, Abrams, and Kurtzman are on record as having not watched all of TOS. I don’t think that is the case with Bob Orci (although as you said, Orci, Kurtzman, and Lindelof have all admitted a tendency to lean toward TNG), and although we know that Burk is a Trek fan, we do not have his own preference on record. ”
More than a “tendency”, Orci remarked: “To this day I still feel that The Next Generation is the best television show from my lifetime” — which I have to admit gave me pause. Oh, I didn’t hate TNG, it was just rather bland to me and most certainly not the “best” TV I’ve ever seen.
#259—I didn’t like it at all.
However, Orci saying that it is “the best television show from (his) lifetime” doesn’t bother me. Was he even alive when TOS was on its first run?
He is also on record (and he repeats it in the full article that we are discussing) as saying that he became a fan of Trek after TWOK premiered in 1982. Obviously, he is a fan of the TOS-era characters too. TNG is just more “of his generation”.
“Meyer himself discusses the error on the DVD commentary.”
Even if he calls it an “error”, I don’t see it that way. There was no contradiction, and therefore no ‘error’ or ‘mistake’ in continuity.
Apparently, even Meyer has fallen victim to the ‘perception’ of an error that isn’t even really there.
“For canon-nit picking buffs there was a lot of discussion in the 80s of exactly “when” good lad Pavel must have arrived given TWOK.”
All that is affirmed in canon is that he was aboard prior to the events of “Space Seed”.
In Season 2 he didn’t recognize Harry Mudd in “I, Mudd” so a lot of folks placed his arrival sometime after Season 1’s “Mudd’s Women” (Ep 7 by air date) and “Space Seed” (Ep 23). Course, he may have not focused on Harry Mudd with those women running loose on the ship and that’s why he didn’t remember him! ”
That might spark some heated discussion after the film, specifically if Chekov is depicted aboard when Kirk first takes command. However, if Chekov was simply a junior officer down below (prior to season two) who was somewhat “out of the loop” compared to more senior personnel, it certainly isn’t much of a stretch for me to buy that he didn’t recognize Mudd.
In the officer corps with which ‘I’ am familiar, Naval Ensigns and Marine Second Lieutenants are far too preoccupied with learning (and just not ’screwing up’ ) to be very concerned with work-related gossip or speculation about matters above their heads or what the more senior officers are up to…unless of course, it directly concerns them. I don’t think that human nature in those types of situations would change much from now until the 23rd Century.
And yes, 22-23 year old males ‘would’, without a doubt, be much more concerned with those women than anything else going on at the time!
The bottom line is, there is no concrete canonical bit of dialogue, in TOS or otherwise, which prevents the creative team from placing Chekov aboard at or very near the beginning of the 5 year mission.
Nor is there, however, anything ‘firm’ which suggests that Chekov will actually be depicted as coming aboard when Kirk first takes command. It could very well be that when we first see all of the more familiar TOS characters together, it could be anytime in the early years of that mission—especially given the nature of the type of storytelling we have come to expect from Bad Robot.
“Even if he calls it an “error”, I don’t see it that way. There was no contradiction, and therefore no ‘error’ or ‘mistake’ in continuity. Apparently, even Meyer has fallen victim to the ‘perception’ of an error that isn’t even really there”
He’s not falling victim to a “perception”, just acknowledging a reality — that this stuff happens, even to the best creators (like Sir Doyle).
A review of TWOK in 12/06 on this site discussed Meyer’s “pass” by Trek fans on this:
“The introduction of Khan also brings up another lesson for Star Trek XI, that of ‘continuity’. Although Khan claims he remembers Checkov, Chekov didn’t join the show until the season after ‘Space Seed’. Trek fans are notorious sticklers for this sort of thing, yet in the case of Star Trek II they seem to give Meyer a pass (explaining it away by saying Chekov was below decks or something). And, of course, regular film goers didn’t need to have seen ‘Space Seed’ to understand Khan’s hatred for Kirk, nor would they care about the whole Chekov not meeting Khan thing. The lesson here is that if a film gets the big things right like character and excitement, apparent ‘continuity errors’ like this are irrelevant. If the film is good but Kirk meets Spock before the Enterprise, or Mc Coy is on board for the first mission (and not Dr Piper), fans will find a way to deal with it just like they did with Chekov and Khan meeting (and the rest of the world will never know the difference).”
Which leads nicely to your comment:
“That might spark some heated discussion after the film, specifically if Chekov is depicted aboard when Kirk first takes command.”
Oh, I bet! But like TWOK, if the movie is good and works overall, a lot of fans will be willing to forgive such a continuity disparity or find a work around. But on the flip side, I can sympathize with fans who will take issue, even if it’s not a deal breaker for me.
My only deal breaker would be a Kirk or Spock I don’t recognize. I’m imaging how the Enterprise looks will perhaps bring the most controversy. Do you think it will ever be “classic” enough for some fans; or modern enough for others? Or even too much a mix of both so as to please no one? I really can’t wait to read THAT thread.
The novel “The Janus Gate” states that when Chekov was first assigned to the Enterprise in 2266, he worked in as many areas of starship operations as possible, as is normal with a command track ensign. Chekov spent several months in engineering, as well as the science departments. Then follows the short story “Indomitable”, in which hekov finally earned the respect and trust of Captain Kirk in 2267, when Chekov is in the auxiliary control room. The Enterprise gets stuck in the gravity well of a black hole, while travelling at warp with the bridge crew out of it, Chekov managed to psave the ship and Kirk assignes Chekov to the navigators position.
The TOS novel “The Disinherited” finally described how Chekov was permanently assigned to the bridge crew as navigator and junior science officer under Commander Spock’s tutelage.
All NonCanon, of course, but as Roberto Orci told us, he read all the books…
right, Bob?
#261—I am always willing to forgive a bit of error (like in TSFS), as long as I like the film.
But with all due respect to Meyer, Koenig, and to Trekmovie’s own review cited in your post, I cannot find the “error” in Khan recognizing Chekov.
It was ‘Koenig’ who joined the ‘cast’ in the second season.
A ‘fictional character’ joining a ‘crew’ of 430 is not the same thing. I will only submit, as I always have, that Meyer’s direction establishes for the first time that Chekov was aboard the Enterprise during the events of “Space Seed”, however unintentionally.
There was no contradiction or error in continuity. Just because some confuse the ‘perception’ of such with the actual occurence of a contradiction doesn’t make it true.
The only thing that Meyer contradicted was ‘fanon’—that is, what fans assumed to be true. That is very different from established ‘canon’, IMO.
The notion that “perception is reality”, to me, is just a bad cliche—and an excuse used to justify a distortion of the truth.
Just as all nit-picking fans, I assumed that Chekov was a new comer in season two. But the ‘truth’ is, there was never anything canon to establish that. There was only the ‘perception’, based upon never actually seeing the character in an episode.
But think about it. How many, even in all 79 episodes, of the 430 crew compliment of the Starship Enterprise were we ever introduced to at all? When we see someone for the first time in season three, do we automatically assume he/she just got there? That wouldn’t make sense, would it? The only reason we developed the perception that it was automatically true with Chekov is because he became a member of the regular bridge crew and because we know that Koenig was added to the cast in season two. But at what other time do we accept behind-the-scenes information as ‘canon’? It doesn’t make sense at all.
Chekov came aboard after the last first season episode= ‘fanon’
Chekov was aboard during the events of “Space Seed”= ‘canon’
There is nothing in established canon, either previous or subsequent, to dispute that. Period. Therefore, it cannot be a mistake, an error, or any other synonym chosen.
It doesn’t matter how many people perceive it the other way. History is full of examples where the majority opinion turns out to be wrong.
I define a “continuity error” as something which contradicts previously established canon. Perhaps your definition varies?
253 i understand what you are saying about canon and respect your opinion – “religiously” may seem a bit harsh in hindsight, just used to stress a point. I think there are some comments on some of these blogs that take canon too far to the point where they are going to slate the film the moment it takes a wrong turn, I’m sure you understand that. What I’m trying to say is that there are far more cinema goers who wont have seen trek b4 or who havent been interested, than those who follow it to the letter. This film must (and will) appeal beyond the fan base to secure a new audience, a new start, a new tv show (lets hope) etc. I dont wish to alienate fans, I am one myself, but, and with respect to yourself, the canon means nothing to a younger generation who are just starting out.
254 – hi, yep from across the pond in jolly ol green fields of the english countryside. Hope you agree with the above comments.
#253—I didn’t mean to imply that I didn’t agree with the basis of your contention. I actually do. I just want it to be clear that for most of us, including many who don’t post here, “canon” is and has always been “just for fun”.
As pointed out before, by me and by others, there have always been “continuity errors”. Yet that has never been as big of a deal as some would make it. I do believe that there is a significant (at least in their minds) group of people out there who would hold this creative team to a standard that none of their predecessors have ever achieved ‘to perfection’ in Star Trek feature films.
And you are absolutely correct. A significant portion of the target audience was not even alive the last time James T. Kirk was depicted on the big screen. They couldn’t care less about continuity of the timeline, a resemblance to a previous actor in appearance or style, similarity asthetic set detail, or any of that minutia. They, like the rest of the movie-going world, will just want to see a good film that entertains them.
Sometimes, we—those of us older folks who are long since established fans of the franchise—have a somewhat exaggerated sense of our own importance.
“similarity ‘in’ asthetic detail”…sorry. Damed typonians got me.
Damn…got me again…bast4rds.
More Star Wars in Star Trek???? Are we talking eps 1-3 or 4-6?
Now some action of the battles in Star Wars would be good, Star Trek battles have been more ship to ship; Star Trek II for example, even Star Trek VI only had 3 ships in the final battle.
You got a hint of a larger battle in the opening of Star Trek First Contact but the director didn’t show much of the larger battle.
Just be aware of Admiral Jar Jar
Well you have to take the Trek Universe as a whole. It goes far beyond the the TV shows and the movies. Lets not forget the books, even the books of the movies have details and sub plots that didn’t make it into the film.
After all in the Movies Kirk died at the end of Generations, but in the books he was later brought back to life by the Borg and recued by Piccard and continued to live in the 24th century
Well as far as continuity, consider how many times the Enterprise has gone back in time; After all according the Star Fleet Temporal Investigations James T kirk has the largest file in regards to time travel.