Greenwood Talks Trek and Pike – Lets Slip A Possible Canon Question October 23, 2008
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: ST09 Cast, Star Trek (2009 film) , trackback
One new Star Trek actor we have not heard much from is Bruce Greenwood, who plays Christopher Pike. So far the actor has been careful not to breach his NDA, but in a new interview with UGO, the new Pike let something slip that may put some Trekkies to ‘canon alert.’ [possible minor spoilers below]
Greenwood: I worked with all the kids
The interview was mainly to promote the DVD release of the film Cyber Soldier, but of course the subject of Trek came up. Greenwood told UGO that he had signed a ‘phonebook sized’ non-disclosure agreement, but still ended up talking watching "The Cage," his hairdo (vs. that of Jeffrey Hunter’s) and more. Read the full interview for all of that. But even though he was being careful, he may have let something important slip in the following exchange:
Greenwood: Well, I’m literally sworn to secrecy in many ways. So I can’t give you any story points at all.
UGO: But you did work with Chris Pine on some of the scenes, correct?
Greenwood: Oh, yeah. I worked with all the kids. I think, I don’t know, but it felt to me on set, particularly with the vibe that JJ creates on set, that it’s going to come off really well. I mean Chris is fantastic, Zack [Quinto] is really, really good. I think they made really wise choices in the cast. And JJ, of course, is force of nature. .
Two beeps for ‘violates canon’?
Our friends at UGO (who are big Trek fans) note at the beginning of the interview that Greenwood confirms ‘a possible break with Trek canon.’ So what did he slip? The character of Pike was introduced in the two-part episode "The Menagerie" which re-used footage from the unaired first Star Trek pilot "The Cage" (featuring Jeffrey Hunter as Pike). In "The Menagerie" there is the following exchange between Commodore Mendez and Kirk, Spock and McCoy about Pike:
Mendez: You ever met Chris Pike?
Kirk: We met when he was promoted to fleet captain.
Mendez: About your age. Big handsome man — vital, active.
Kirk: I took over the Enterprise from him. Spock served with him for several years.
Spock: Seven years, four months, five days.
Kirk explains he met Pike when Pike was promoted
(TOS: "The Menagerie" 1966)
TrekMovie has already reported that Greenwood is playing ‘Captain Pike’ in the movie and will be seen commanding the USS Enterprise, and it has been confirmed that in the film Pine (James T. Kirk) and Greenwood do have scenes together. Also in the recent images released, we can clearly see Kirk in the command chair of the USS Enterprise. However, TrekMovie has also confirmed that this is due to Kirk having to take command of the ship at some point during the film (note this could fit with Kirk’s dialog above). In previous statements from "The Supreme Court" they have been clear that the film ‘honors’ Trek canon and that they are supremely aware of anything that can be perceived as a deviation. It is possible that dealing with when Pike and Kirk met maybe one of those cases that they made ‘a ruling’ that appears to bend canon, or this may also all work out in the end (maybe Pike is promoted during the film).
Kirk in command of Pike’s Enterprise
("Star Trek" 2009)
Like the case of ‘the Enterprise being constructed in space (as many imagined) or on Earth (as seen in the teaser trailer)’, there may be many ways to look at these things. How you imagined the ‘gaps to be filled’ may not be how the new movie fills them, but that does not always mean that it is a violation of canon. Star Trek co-writer Bob Orci addressed this issue at the TrekMovie sponsored panel at the Grand Slam convention earlier this year. Bob believes that people’s view of how the film fits within Trek’s canon will be based on how they view canon themselves. Noting the real Supreme Court as an analogy, Orci said "it will depend on if you are a strict constructionist or believe in the spirit of the law."
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It’s hard to tell what any of it all means until we see the movie. It can all get “corrected” in the end or explained in some way.
Sounds interesting. But I hope people aren’t going to nitpick over Greenwood’s use of the word ‘kids’.
I wonder if we will see Captain April i this movie before its all said and done
in this movie…
This doesn’t violate Canon as far as I can see.
Maybe Kirk getting the command of the Enterprise from Pike, while Pike is promoted to Fleet Captain is being portrayed here.
There has already been a HUGE change noting Commodore Mendez’s statement of Pike being “about your age” in reference to Kirk.
Yeah, I don’t see any reason to be worried about that. There are plenty of ways to explain it logically. And it wouldn’t be the first canon-massaging plot element we’ve had to deal with, so I’m not worried at all about that aspect of the film.
3 – Doubt it. Not necessary.
Not really a spoiler. Pretty much common knowledge if you’re a Trek fan.
6 – I could let that one slide.
the entertainment weekly article called captain pike “doomed” which i thought was interesting that no one picked up on. of course that chair thing is doomed but you wouldnt think it happens in the timeline of this movie.
so could it be that spock has already done his 7 years with pike? then what about the enterprise being constructed?
this is all alot to put together. i might just wait for the movie and see if there is anything blatantly out of canon, then decide if i even care.
THE WOMEN!!
=h=
If Kirk got command (as some sources state) at the age of 31 (approx 2266), and Pike was supposed to be his age at the time of “The Menagerie”. That means that in the events of “The Cage” (approx 2254) Pike would have been 19 – he wouldn’t have even been out of the Academy, never mind in charge of a ship. So, therefore, casting Greenwood makes sense, he would have to be a fair bit older than Kirk.
(Information is from Memory Alpha)
There’s a DC comic about Kirk’s first mission on the Enterprise and him and Gary Mitchell and Spock coming on the ship. What about Number One? Is she gonna be in the movie or on the ship?
It’s good to hear from this guy! I think he’ll make a good Pike.
Speaking of Capt. April…
Wasn’t he only referenced in TAS? It would be nice if he got a nod, though.
I’m glad the “Supreme Court” is willing to be flexible with canon if it’s to the benefit of the story. I’m not a big stickler about these things. I just want to see the best story possible.
As I’ve predicted many times on these boards, The bridge shot from the new movie is Pike’s Enterprise.
Grey turbolift doors, people! It was right there in front of you.
Decloaking . . .
As long as the story works, a few lines of dialog from early in TOS should not be held with Fundamentalist brain-lock.
I started out as a “Strict Constructionist,” but I think Anthony’s interview with Ron D. Moore changed my mind to being closer to “The Spirit of the Canon.”
What we need, above all else, is a great Trek film with gang buster box office to keep Trek alive.
Ultimately, a few different interpretations of Canon really don’t mean that much.
Recloaking . . .
Perhaps when Mendez said “about your age” he meant that Pike was about Kirk’s age when promoted to Fleet Captain.
Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about a couple of lines of dialogue from an episode needs to get over it.
Nero probably lays siege to the Farragut, Kirk escapes in a pod to a snowy planet and is picked up by the Enterprise.
New thesis: No matter what Nero does in this movie, he finds that he’s only reinforced history as it was supposed to turn out–introducing Kirk to Pike, etc.
See my prophtic(?) STXI plot summary posted here long ago (January) on TrekMovie to learn more…
An exceprt…
Back on the Faragut Kirk executes some amazing fire on the Romulan Ship through flames and debris. He one of two left alive on the bridge and is working many controls and stations. Kirk, and a helmsman, manage to steer thier ship into the thick clouds of a giant gaseous planet, therebye obscuring thier location. The Enterprise drops out of warp and begins scanning for federation ships. The Enterprise is unable to find the enemy Romulan ship, but is seeing the federation secure code beacon but is still unable to communicate with the Farragut.
Pike orders a landing party. Pike, Spock and McCoy beam down to the engineering department to find a wrecked ship and few survivors. They beam over the few left alive and after scanning for more they find life on the bridge and make there way there. Once at the bridge emergency bulkhead, Spock scans to find a rapidly diminishing life support environment. Pike orders Spock to stay with McCoy and ready the Transporters for beamout. Pike enters to save any he can and comes out with the helsman but returns for Kirk. He returns just as the Romulan ship appears on the main screen and fires. Flames and Plasma erupt again thoughout the bridge and Pike is caught inside as the bulkhead slams shut from the distruction. Kirk, Spock and McCoy beam out.
Once on the Enterprise Kirk is revived and Spock tasks to re-energize and save Pike. But alas, he is not soon enough and a badly, badly burned Pike is beamed aboard….
Hmmm?
Are actually *certain* that picture is really of the Enterprise bridge??
I’ve heard a lot about how the sets were faithful to the original, and while I realize they’d never make an exact clone of a 1960’s TV set, I don’t quite see how that bridge really meshes with the TOS Enterprise…aside from the big center chair, I suppose….
#11 – It’s likely that the construction of the Enterprise that we saw in the teaser trailer was for the trailer only and will not appear in the atual movie.
If there’s Pike on the Enterprise, there surely will be Number One.
If Pike was promoted when Kirk took command of the Enterprise (obviously in the midst of a crisis) I doubt Mendez would have not known about that, or if Kirk would have described their first meeting that way.
This is a clear violation of canon. Important? Not in itself, but Spock’s 7 years with Pike, and Kirk’s career before the Enterprise are important parts of their history, and if this movie goes from the crews’ graduation to Kirk taking command of the Enterprise as the result of some crisis (and not as part of a regular promotion/assignment) I wonder if they’re going to delete the K&S’s pre- TOS careers.
Anyone who doubts that Abrams & co. will ditch any part of canon (as seen on screen, or that existed for decades as fandom mythos) would also take their word that this isn’t a reboot. And it is.
P.S. for a spacefaring race to construct a ship of that size on Earth would make no sense.
Wasn’t most of the Enteprrse D built on the ground?
The fact that Pike is being featured in the film at all strikes me as a big wet sloppy kiss to canon, so massaging a throwaway line about his meeting with Kirk in order to serve the new story doesn’t strike me as that damaging.
#25
The 0.6 gravity of Mars makes is much easier to build large constructs and launch them into space than from earth. It may not be “canon”, but I remember as a child, my father telling me as we sat and watched TOS together, that Enterprise was built in orbit.
That depiction of the Enterprise D did appear onscreen, but its conception (from what I have read online) was initially intended as a cadet mockup or training ground.
The E’s warp engines could easily and efficiently help the ship achieve neutral boyancy within a planets atmospohere thereby allowing it to achieve orbit.
#25
That is, supposing Utopia Planitia was actually ON Mars and not in orbit… but I seem to remember the holographic version of Utopia Planitia seemed to indicate much of the construction of Enterprise-D was done underground
Let me run this by you all….
I just watched Yesterday’s Enterprise, I have read that this is one of the episodes that inspired the writers and JJ. Check out the Enterpises… that “stand up” station that everyone is so up in arms about is seen in this episode. Since this is about changing the time line.. perhaps a changed time time would change some elements of the bridge design. It’s all possible.
Also… I remember seeing plans from Pike’s bridge.. didn’t it have stand up stations as well? Correct me if I am wrong.. haven’t seen “The Cage” in years.
I have a feeling this movie is going to change the past and change what we know about TOS. That’s fine with me. I love alternate timelines. TOS will always be TOS to me, and these movies will be considered a different timeline. That way I don’t have to get all paranoid about the phasers looking wrong.
I think you would need the Phoenix’s “warp” engines to get out from underground.
I think the hull of the Enterprise D was built on Earth, and then transferred to space..
I would not put it past them to ignore things like Kirk meeting Pike as described previously…
Supposedly we are seeing K&S at the academy at the same time, but as stated above, wouldn’t Spock already be on board with Pike?
And while we might see Number One… I’ll be surprised if Gary Mitchell is even mentioned in passing ( at least that much I would be happy with)
And the thing that continuosly bugs me in the photo above… Why is McCoy’s rank that of Commander (two solid braids) and not Lt. Cmdr (one solid, one broken)?
26:
Bryan:
But Bob Orci’s “immediate recall of all things Trek”must feed a little apprehension when he decides to change something.
Hopefully, Trek XI will sort it out properly, or just be so good that it doesn’t matter.
“D” was built at Utopia Planitia… Mars. I seem to recall Geordi’s holo repro looked to me like the ship outside the lab window was somehow underground. I imagine there is a ground-based shipyard that works in concert with a geo-stationary one. Hence, the “San Francisco Shipyards” being several hundred miles above the Golden Gate
Spock would have graduated years before Kirk ever attended the academy. Spock would have been in space long before Kirk had arrived. Maybe in this timeline, someone else is Pike’s science officer?
It could be the young Kirk “takes command” of Enterprise, as seen in the movie shot, on a strictly de facto basis while Pike’s indisposed. He’s not the ship’s captain yet or a captain at all.
At the end of the main story, when Kirk and his future crewmates have saved the day, they go separate ways. Spock completes his service under Pike. Years later (flash forward at the end of the film) Kirk is given command of the Enterprise and reunites the crew.
Ummm.. question for you guys…
Did I miss something? Has it been mentioned anywhere that Spock was at the academy with Kirk? I don’t think I read that anywhere.. it could be that Kirk first runs into Spock on the Enterprise OR that they do meet at the academy but Spock was already a graduate for the past 7 years.
Why this movie is not canon thus far-
Uniforms (where are the Cage or Where No Man has gone before ones?)
Chekov (the age difference between him and the rest as established)
Bridge (Technology looks more advanced than TNG!)
Pike’s age
Scotty’s hair dew or lack therof!
But, Mccoy does have a De Kelly looking ring on his finger in that picture of him on the bridge!
#37
That’s always been a problem with me. How can Spock be roughly the same age as Kirk and yet have been aboard Enterprise as a bridge officer fully fifteen years before the events of that whole kidnapping of Pike thing?
My friends understand….WE ARE TREK FANS! If there is a viloation of cannon…give us a week we will explain it away! We have done that for 40 years!
Maybe the Talosians will be involved in some way????
#6
Afraid The Menagerie itself contradicted Mendez’s statement, as Pike was shown being older than Kirk over 11 years before in the very same episode.
#25, 27, 28, etc.
The Utopia Planitia shipyards were shown in the episode Parallels, and a Galaxy-class ship’s saucer was indeed shown being constructed on the planet’s surface.
Always liked Bruce Greenwood. Loved him on “Nowhere Man” which ran many years ago on UPN during the early days of VOY.
Never could figure out the canon timeline re: Pike. The Cage was supposed to take place, what? thirteen years before TOS season one? Then Spock says he served with Pike for seven years? What happened then? Did Spock serve on another ship for six (or more) years? Did another captain take over? Kirk? How long had Kirk been captain by “Where No Man etc”? What would that do to the ‘5-year mission’? How old does that make Spock? Kirk? Does any of this really matter? Am I willing to allow any alterations to this confusing timeline?
Ultimately, yes. If it’s a good story I’ll accept it as canon. There have been plenty of ridiculous in-story contradictions over the years (Data saying he graduated ‘class of ‘79′ which fits nowhere in later established canon, Kirk telling Khan he’s awakened 400 years in the future instead of half that time, Admiral Morrow calling the 40+-year-old Enterprise ‘twenty years old’, etc) that an actual full-on story contradicting a single line of dialogue tossed off decades ago is not a problem I can’t deal with.
Perhaps the Bridge we see in the publicity shots is just a simulator and not the Enterprise – Perhaps The Kobayashii Maru?
Many don’t consider TAS canon, but in the episode “Counter-Clock Incident”…when referring to the Enterprise Robert April says something to the effect of “I was in San Francisco when her component parts were built.”
Did Spock say he served seven years or eleven years under Pike? I always thought it was eleven but I could be mistaken.
#41
It was 11 years prior, and it’s already been established that Kirk served aboard several ships in that same time period. It doesn’t really provide any continuity issues.
No big deal yet, considering that the show itself created canon that it could not explain.
How can Kirk, the youngest captain in Starfleet history, be roughly the same age as Pike who was already a weary veteran of the captaincy while commanding the Enterprise 13 years earlier?
Re: Hitch: the entertainment weekly article called captain pike “doomed” which i thought was interesting that no one picked up on. of course that chair thing is doomed but you wouldnt think it happens in the timeline of this movie.
It’s just possible the writer actually knows his Trek and wasn’t speaking about the film itself.
#50 I think it was just a scripting error. There is no way Pike would be the same age as Kirk. Pike should be at least 8-10 yrs older.
trekmovie.com’s quote from ‘The Menagerie’ is wrong. Spock said that he served with Pike for ELEVEN years, four months, five days. Not SEVEN.
Also, #41- Shatner and Nimoy were both 35 in 1966. Assuming Kirk and Spock are the same age, they both could have been starfleet officers 13 years prior to ‘The Menagerie’ (when ‘The Cage’ takes place).
I loved Bruce Greenwood as JFK in ‘Thirteen Days’, one of the best and most underrated movies of all-time.
6. Tim Handrahan –
“There has already been a HUGE change noting Commodore Mendez’s statement of Pike being “about your age” in reference to Kirk.”
Yeah I always believed Mendez’ line was either human error or an error on the writers’ part. If The Cage took place 13 years before The Menagerie how could Kirk and Pike possibly be ‘about the same age’?
Spock and Pike were both roughly 11 years older than Kirk. Spock looks Kirk age because Vulvans age slower than humans.
Wow, these comments here are a far cry from those in the preview image threads. It seems folks are pretty lenient when it comes to bending canon (in this case, lines from “The Menagerie”), as am I. It definitely makes more sense to have Pike be older so Spock could have served with him previously, yet keep Kirk as this hotshot youngest captain. You can’t have it both ways, and this seems like a good compromise. Spirit of the law time.
It is terribly interesting that some folks are just fine with bending verbal canon or explaining away “factual” inconsistencies, but hell hath no fury like a TOS fan whose bridge has been changed! We haven’t even seen the whole thing yet, but thus far we have the captain’s chair, big forward viewscreen, sunken central area, helm and navigation forward of the captain, turbolift to port aft, and stations around the perimeter. Seems pretty faithful to the original bridge to me, with updated controls and graphics.
Pike being “doomed”… I chalked that up to the writer knowing the whole history of the character, not necessarily that we see something of his accident in the movie, but maybe we should read something into it. Time will tell on that one.
well, we know that kirk is in a cadet style uniform for captains. perhaps pike is training him(?) anyways, this whole canon hogwash sometimes frustrates me. some of you guys are waaaaaayyy tp hard core about a tv show. so what if some or a lot changes, i think trek is getting old the way it is, and the more rules about canon you implement, the more cliche and boring it becomes. i think we need something fresh and new, and not completely canon
#57
I never got that Spock was any older than Kirk. Pike clearly was based on the timeline involved.
Sorry, #59 should be directed at #56, not 57.
11. rehabilitated hitch1969© –
“so could it be that spock has already done his 7 years with pike? then what about the enterprise being constructed?”
This has been postulated before but I don’t think the construction-of-the-Enterprise scene we saw in the teaser is even in the movie — it was created solely to promote the film and it’s “Under Construction’ tagline from many months ago. For one thing, none of the visual effects for the movie were even begun until many months after the teaser appeared. That Enterprise may not even be the final version from the film!
You know guys that this is actually not a prequel but will involve timetravel, so they have every right to change canon without changing it at all.
20. Jeffries Tuber –
“Nero probably lays siege to the Farragut, Kirk escapes in a pod to a snowy planet and is picked up by the Enterprise.”
We’ve learned Nero lays siege to the Kelvin somewhere in Trek history between ENT and The Cage, not the Farragut. Also the escape pod Kirk’s climbing out of on the ice planet is clearly marked with “NCC-1701″, the Enterprise.
56. John from Cincinnati – October 23, 2008
Spock and Pike were both roughly 11 years older than Kirk. Spock looks Kirk age because Vulvans age slower than humans.
I guess if you say it with authority, people will believe you. Oh, and I’ve been to Vulva and that’s not true.
Yeah, I’m not sure what all this nitpicking is about.
If this is a time travel story featuring a future Spock that goes back in time to Kirk’s cadet days… (like terminator going back to help the young John Connor)… then of course canon, the way people met, when they met, where they were– is all going to change to solve whatever problem Spock is working against. I think that’s the point of this re-imagining: Going back and CHANGING the past on the way to saving someone or something.
On a completely different note, as a huge TNG fan, I remember the episode where Worf’s son, Alexander, goes back in time as an adult to try to train his younger self to be a warrior because Alexander’s meandering ways would lead to the death of Worf as an ambassador in the future. The adult Alexander talks about visiting this strange man on an outpost who sold him a time ship… Man, I have been waiting for that guy to appear again. I hope he comes into this movie and if so, major kudos goes out to writers et al.
speaking of “The Enterprise” … have any of you seen this??
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31621699@N03/?saved=1
#66
yes, from another thread…
and it’s a FAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
#67
Thanks… i hadn’t seen it in any other threads… I must have missed it. Pretty good fake though.
64.
I’m speaking of Vulcanians.
Also see- Star Trek Role Playing Game by FASA the authority on Trek history for Spock’s age.
#68
as I saw in another thread, an astute person pointed out that the real “reveal” of the new big “E” will be much better than that photo-shopped cellphone-looking image
If there was no timeline manipulation I would be somewhat concerned abot ANY changes, but because the timeline is being manipulated I would be fine with any breaks in continuity or different looks.
What if they change where Pike gets injured by delta rays saving Enterprise crewmen instead of aboard that old training ship? Then Cadet Kirk takes temporary command of the Enterprise and due to his galantry saving the Enterprise I guess from Nero’s attack he gets promoted to full Captain? That way Nero actually ends up causing Kirk to get command of the Enterprise anyway after all that Nero tried to do to get Kirk? Allthough I wonder why Spock or McCoy wouldn’t assume command since they are Senior officers?
Interesting suppositions that Commander Kirk may have take over for Fleet Captain Pike because of the Nero-induced sequence of events.
OS/2 is shaping up to be very… interesting.
66
for the last time that image is fake and I am getting a bit bugged by people posting it. I dont know if you created this forgery or were just suckered by it. that is not a real image.
all future postings of that image will be deleted. If there were a real image of the E out there, we would report it. That is such a bad fake it isn’t worth an article
Anthony,
Didn’t I just say that?
Werewindle
BTW, clearly Kirk is in all black, because before he’s posted to the Enterprise, he’s in Starfleet Special Ops, or almost a Jack Ryan-type (think Red October).
Kirk. James Kirk. “Commander Kirk”.
Now I get even a bit more why Pine used a composite of Harrison Ford’s characters to interpret a younger Kirk… makes perfect sense.
Hey sorry Anthony… I saw this online and hadn’t seen it before. I got suckered. But i don’t appreciate the accusation that I created it. I have been a poster here for a long time and have never caused a problem.
24. John Hazard –
“If there’s Pike on the Enterprise, there surely will be Number One.”
Not neccessarily. The Cage took place 13 years before TOS proper. She may have died or moved on by then.
29. werewindle –
“#25
That is, supposing Utopia Planitia was actually ON Mars and not in orbit… but I seem to remember the holographic version of Utopia Planitia seemed to indicate much of the construction of Enterprise-D was done underground”
It always looked to me like construction was taking place inside a large spacedock like the one from TSFS and “110011001″, not underground nor on the surface of Mars. And on VOY we saw Utopia Planetia shipyards as (at least in part) a vast series of orbital docking facilities.
Also I gotta point out that folks unfamiliar with JJ Abrams should screen a season or two of Lost. They’ll see that it’s more than likely we’ll see events from many different points on any given timelines — possibly on a couple timelines given Trek’s nature!
40. Shatner Lover! –
“Why this movie is not canon thus far-”
Ugh. Dude. Lighten up.
56. John from Cincinnati –
“Spock and Pike were both roughly 11 years older than Kirk. Spock looks Kirk age because Vulvans age slower than humans.”
“Vulvans” huh? Freud was right. ;)
64.
Vulcan life span is of 200 years. So yes, A Vulcanian of 45 could very well look 35,
“I guess if you say it with authority people will believe you.”
See – 48. Doesn’t sound very authoritative to me but I’m still right and trekmovie.com was wrong. Spock served 11 years with Pike, NOT 7!
The c and the v are right next to each other. Gimme a break!
They’re called Vulcanians!
58
I have been saying that for years, Most people in the real world don’t give a damn about “canon” – whatever that is ( I know what goofy Trek fans think it is) but it isn’t important as long as the overall spirit and vision are there.
69. John from Cincinnati –
“64.
I’m speaking of Vulcanians.
Also see- Star Trek Role Playing Game by FASA the authority on Trek history for Spock’s age.”
Far as I’ve heard, nothing by FASA has ever been established as canon.
It seems to me that Mendez could be implying that when Pike was promoted he was about the age of Kirk now (The Menagerie).
And if my memory serves me correct, from the Trek Encyclopedia Kirk and Spock were at the academy together, but graduated in different years. Spock first. I think.
Also, we’re going to see all sorts of things in this movie. Everything from Kirk and Spock as children to the crew together for the first time. So it’s not impossible that we’re going to see things that are years apart.
Also, it’s possible that Pike’s scenes with the crew are after he’s been promoted. Maybe he’s the one who promote Kirk to captain and give him the Enterprise, with the rest of the crew there.
Everything seen in the new movie is a Talosian illusion
someone said it before, I’ll say it again:
Spock served under Pike for 11 years 4 months and 5 days
#69
A role playing game isn’t canon, regardless of how well regarded it is. Paramount/Rodenberry authorized a lot of contradictory ‘official’ publications. Nothing on screen has ever suggested the two were separated in age by more than a few years, at best. In fact, ‘Journey To Babel’ would seem to make it clear they were roughly the same age (what with the mention of the 18 year rift between Sarek and Spock due to the latter’s entry into Starfleet Academy).
82.
Far as I’ve heard, nothing by FASA has ever been established as canon.
Actually Izbot – The FASA explanation based on the John Ford novels about the Klingons with ridges was incorporated into the Star Trek Enterprise episode, canonizing it.
#87
John, come on. Using elements of a story doesn’t ‘canonize’ it. The fact is, with Star Trek it’s what is portrayed on screen that counts.
FASA contradicted there own stuff.
#85—I think what you are referring to is the amount of time passed between the events of “The Cage”, and “The Menagerie”.
As much as I liked FASA’s STTRPG (it is still in my closet somewhere, purchased about 1983), it is not canon. As far as I am concerned, only events depicted in live-action Trek are canon.
In the case of Mendez’s dialogue noted above, it is obvious that either Spock’s time under Pike or Pike’s age has to be wrong. Both could not be plausibly correct, otherwise it would already have been contradicted by subsequent episodes (like “The Deadly Years”, which notes Kirk’s age in the second season as being 34).
As expected, the so-called “Supreme Court” will have to make judgement calls where there is already a canon contradiction. This seems to be one of those cases.
62. Cathi: What I take away from JJ et al. regarding the time travel plot is that time travel is used as a conceit to connect Leonard Nimoy to the new cast, but we are not going to be starting up some new continuity in an “alternate timeline” because of it. I anticipate that the universe and timeline of this movie is the same one we have seen 29(!) seasons of on TV.
#89—As did even my beloved original Star Trek…There are contradictions already in existence. Obviously, there will have to be some “rulings”, as mentioned before.
Geez Louise!
That was a little harsh on Montreal Paul… So is all fan art now considered a forgery and James Cawley’s Phase II a fraud or something?
Anyway, is it just me or does Bruce Greenwood look older than Jeffrey Hunter did in the TOS pilot?
#20: Except if you look at the pod on the planet, I am fairly certain it says NCC-1701 on it.
Perhaps if Kirk is in a Black Ops unit he had a closer association with Pike than he can admit, even to a StarFleet commodore,
then again. . .
let’s all take a chill pill and wait ’til May and see the dmn movie!
uhhh….it was never said that pike will even be from the same timeline as the crew is…awhile back in an interview, jj said that thered be the enterprise we generally know and a much more militant version in an alternate timeline where nero succeeded in killing kirk…it’s possible the age discrepency could be that pike was from the militant timeline and somewhere the 2 enterprises meet
wait…the black uniform? is kirk here part of section 31?
Quinto’s Spock: “You look much like an uncle of mine
Nimoy’s Spock: “Peace and Long Life, Spock”
Quinto’s Spock: “Live Long and Prosper”
Nimoy’s Spock: (with an uprise of the eyebrow) “I have, and you shall”
Quinto’s Spock: (with an uprise of the eyebrow) “Indeed.”
Whoops; partial post. Shouldn’t have hit the SAY IT button.
Its a reboot so who cares about the canon? Throw it all out and start fron scratch.
The iBridge still hurts my eyes. So awful.
I don’t think its going be either a cannon issue or that big a deal.
#56—”Spock and Pike were both roughly 11 years older than Kirk.”
From what source is that?
That would certainly contradict “Yesteryear” (a TAS episode canonized by repeated reference in live-action Trek). It is established that Spock was 37 years old by that point in the 5 year mission. Most consider that to be ‘after’ the events in the third season.
At the very least, it would be some time after “City On The Edge Of Forever” and “Journey To Babel”.
It could have been in the final year of the 5 year mission. That would make Spock within a year or so of Kirk’s age at the time of the Pike-Kirk change of command.
As for Pike’s age, since the dialogue in “The Menagerie” is already contradictory, there is a bit of creative room for Orci/Kurtzman/Abrams/Lindelof/Burk.
–Spock was a junior officer aboard the Enterprise under Pike’s command more than 11 years prior to his Court-Martial under Mendez/Kirk/Pike, yet Mendez says that Fleet Captain Pike is about Kirk’s age?
Something has to give, and I would choose Pike’s age relative to JTK. That ruling makes the most sense, and that particular canon gaffe will be rectified from that point on.
#101—There is already an existing canon issue in “The Menagerie”.
A ruling on that contradiction would simply rectify that. That should please even the strictest canonites.
#42
Amen! Anybody who gets their knickers in a twist over the canon seriously needs to lighten up. And yeah, this thread is weird; nobody crying about it.
#93
He probably is older than Hunter was, and I don’t care. It makes sense to me for Pike to be significantly older than Kirk. And I love Bruce Greenwood. What I want is a pic of him in uniform!
#102 Closettrekker
Absolutely agreed.
#22—Orci and Kurtzman said recently (paraphrasing) that you have to see the entire bridge (including the floors) to see how it really is the most faithful to the original of all the movie bridge sets. What has been shown is but a mere section of that bridge taken out of the context of the whole set.
Surely you were not expecting the 1960’s color patterns…lol. I think it is remarkable how they stayed so consistent with the basic look of the uniforms!
So it’s pretty safe to assume that during the film Pike is in command. Kirk is onboard in some capacity as a junior officer. Something happens to Pike and Kirk must assume command. (may explain his black academy T-shirt) The scene where Spock chokes out Kirk prob has to do with Pike being either incapacitated, kidnapped by Romulans or killed in some sort of temporal cannon shift and Spock is conflicted and resentful of losing his beloved captain and dealing with young upstart Kirk replacing him. Maybe Kirk says something to the effect of Pike is dead and we have to move on. This makes alot of sense to your Lord. It is not until the end of the film that Kirk is actually given command because of the ramifications of Nero altering the timeline. My guess is Pike is killed, presumed lost or maimed somehow and Kirk’s heroism impresses Starfleet command. I’d wager money on this if any of you suckers are interested.
79. John from Cincinnati – October 23, 2008
“See – 48. Doesn’t sound very authoritative to me but I’m still right and trekmovie.com was wrong. Spock served 11 years with Pike, NOT 7!”
Pointing out a typo hardly validates your opninion.
107.
My sources tell me that you are wrong. Your reasoning is illogical at best.
In the novelization of TMP, Kirk indicates that about the time he became Chief of Operations, Starfleet went back to the practice of building ship components on Earth because the gravity made it easier to move around without having to worry about life-support needs. The components were then assembled at the orbital drydock facility. Since Roddenberry is credited as being the author
The discrepency in the eleven years vs. thirteen years on Spock’s time on the Enterprise could be explained by Spock’s assignment to another posting for two years prior to Kirk’s command. Perhaps Spock was on temporary assignment on a command track to prep him to be first officer. Maybe that puts him back at the academy to meet Kirk. Remember, he was ONLY science officer under Pike.
However, I find it near impossible for an academy cadet to take command of the flagship. Kirk’s time on the Enterprise HAS to happen well past his graduation. We do know that Pike was injured on a training mission, right? So that would fit the speculation about the movie plot. But Kirk would have to already be high enough in rank to command the Enterprise on a permanent basis after Pike’s injury. Otherwise, Starfleet would take it from Kirk and give it to someone who has the rank and experience to command.
Chekov’s presence: I’m still scratching my head over that one. It’s clear he’s much younger than the rest of the command staff. Even if you allow for his posting in the “lower decks”, which would be consistent with the TNG episode, he wasn’t on the bridge until later. Where’s Lt. Dave Bailey? Where’s Styles? Where’s DeSalle?
For that matter, Mister Leslie better be there in a red shirt…
#6 It could be that when Mendez said the line, “About Your age,” How do we know he was talking to Kirk? He could have been talking to McCoy. Or he could have meant he was Kirk’s age when he was promoted to Fleet Captain.
87. John from Cincinnati – October 23, 2008
“Actually Izbot – The FASA explanation based on the John Ford novels about the Klingons with ridges was incorporated into the Star Trek Enterprise episode, canonizing it.”
That’s a strrrrrrreeeeeeeetch! As much as I loved the Ford novels they still aren’t official canon and are at odds on many topics with what was later established on screen. I agree they are some of the better Trek novels and even regret that Ford’s take on Klingon culture and politics wasn’t used as their template but sadly the folks in charge during the late 80s/early 90s gave us cartoony drunken Vikings with butt-rock wigs. I also liked the ENT episodes but again, nothing there to validate FASA as being even part-way canonical.
Btw, no one calls them “Vulcanians” any more.
One thing that is a little off canon is the look of the bridge. It didn’t change that much between “The Cage” and WNMHGB. Not like it looks in the picture above. If they could create almost exact replicas in DS9 (Trials and Tribbleations”, ENT (IN a Mirror Darkly) and even TNG (Relics) why couldn’t they have done it here?
For people wondering about Kirk and Spock in the academy. WHen Spock was under the command of Pike, Kirk was serving on the Farragut, not in the Academy.
110. Jason P Hunt
Well? Where ARE all of the Chekov fans?
I guess the general public would miss his character.
But I could see Chekov being the real green character in this movie. The young marksman who is called upon when the Enterppris is refitted for the first Star War.
Star Trek has alot of characters in its 500+ hours onscreen. If we get three good movies in the next 5 years I’ll be happy. That’s still not much time to recapsulate everything we have been shown into 8 or 9 hours.
What would you change if you had this brief time (and alot of cash) to retell the whole ST universe?
#113
Because putting that bridge on a 70ft movie screen in a film trying to revitalize the franchise would have been a death stroke. It simply doesn’t hold up, no matter how much fondness and nostagia we all may have for it.
“Spock said that he served with Pike for ELEVEN years, four months, five days. Not SEVEN.”
Glad someone caught that. Spock’s long service and loyalty motivated his actions in this episode so this is rather important.
As for the new movie, I’ve resigned myself that they are going to change things and then explain them away. As much as I look forward to seeing Nimoy as Spock again, I do keep thinking it would have been so much more easier to deal with, if he’s wasn’t in it since he anchors us to the past. Much like BSG, they could have just pressed restart without the canon baggage.
Boyce was Pike’s CMO. McCoy came on board after the events of ‘Where no man has gone before’. He wouldn’t be on the bridge of Pike’s Enterprise.
24
No space-faring race which has to worry launching mass out of gravity wells would build a large ship on the surface of a planet. But a civilization as portrayed in TOS, which has absolute mastery over both matter and gravity, could build it either place without breaking a sweat.
90
According to the dialog from the episode, Spock served with Pike for 11 years 4 months 5 days. The events of “The Cage” occur 13 years prior to Spock’s fictional court marshal.
102
Yes I agree with your reasoning here, Mendez’s line is the place to push. I wish Mendez was a little older, then it could be sloughed off as age myopia (”Sure there’s a decade difference in you youngsters but I’m 20 years older than the lot of ya. So you’re all about the same age to me.”)
Shouldn’t you folks be out spending money, supporting the economy or doing good works for the church? Get outside, breath some fresh air. The argument will will still be here when you return.
I thought the “red bridge rail” arguments on Trekmovie from eons ago were tedious…. yee-ouch.
#107—I don’t think there is yet any reason to assume that Kirk serves under Pike at all in this film. Greenwood states that he has “scenes” with Pine. That could very well be consistent with Kirk’s assertion in “The Menagerie” that he met him when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain. If that is their first meeting, it doesn’t necessarily have to be their last.
Otherwise, the paths of our heroes could be slightly (or even dramatically) altered by Nero’s interference with the timeline. Still, I wouldn’t concede yet that Kirk is ever a junior officer aboard the Enterprise.
As for his depiction in a black shirt, we don’t know why that is just yet. It could be the KM test, for all we know. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see that notorious story depicted in this film.
#113—I can never get on board with set designs being considered any part of canon. To me, “canon” is (and has always been) the timeline of events and stories which are depicted in live action Trek only. Asthetics are just window dressing, IMO.
“If they could create almost exact replicas in DS9 (Trials and Tribbleations”, ENT (IN a Mirror Darkly) and even TNG (Relics) why couldn’t they have done it here?”
It is not a question of “can they or can’t they”. Just as it was decided in the 1970’s, that look was fine on the small screen, but would not look so impressive on the big screen.
They(GR and co.) were prudent then, and they(JJ and co.) are prudent now for coming to that same conclusion.
With a budget in excess of $150 million, they had better not show me the TOS bridge….It has to be impressive to kids, not simply nostalgic for us old timers.
In the words of Bill Shatner, that would be a “bad business decision”.
This needs to be a 21st Century interpretation of what things would look like in the 23rd Century, not a rehash of the 1960’s interpretation of the same thing.
113
Because it woudn’t look right in a high budget film.
ok, here we go CANON CORRECTION MODE… (deep breathh…)
Chekovwasbelowdecksfirstseason,notyetabridgeofficer.(gasp)McCoywasontemporaryleaveandboycewasatempCMO.(wheeze)McCoyattendedacdemylaterinlifebecauseheentertheservicelater.(gasp)SpockisolderbuttaightsomeattheacademybetweenmissionsanddatedCarolMarcusbeforeKirk.Scottytricksoutthebridge.(inhale)ThetripbackintimeforoldSpockleadstoaslightlydifferentreality,thustheslightlydifferent…everything.(whoosh!)
How’dIdo?
that came out wrong…
Take 2…
ok, here we go CANON CORRECTION MODE… (deep breathh…)
Chekovwasbelowdecksfirstseason,notyetabridgeofficer.(gasp)McCoywasontemporaryleaveandboycewasatempCMO.(wheeze)McCoyattendedacdemylaterinlifebecauseheentertheservicelater.(gasp)SpockisolderbuttaightsomeattheacademybetweenmissionsanddatedCarolMarcusbeforeKirk.Scottytricksoutthebridge.(inhale)ThetripbackintimeforoldSpockleadstoaslightlydifferentreality,thustheslightlydifferent…everything.(whoosh!)
it appears the sitedoesn’t like run on sentences…sorry
#114—I believe it was the USS Republic as an ensign, then as a Lt, both as an instructor at the Academy (where Mitchell was a student in his class) and as an officer aboard the USS Farragut (it is unclear which of the latter two assignments preceded the other, but it seems likely that after the traumatic events aboard the USS Farragut, a nice cushy, yet brief, SFA teaching assignment would have been quite plausible).
So, in fact, he ‘was’ at the Academy for part of that time, although not as a student.
There is nothing at all within established canon which precludes them from attending the Academy at the same time.
That line about Kirk and Pike being the same age is on odd one. That can’t be possible, so ignoring it was a good ruling. I like canon, but I try to keep an open and reasonable mind about it. TOS is full of contradictions, mainly because back then it seemed unfathomable that anyone would be paying that close attention.
I’d be surprised if the building of the Enterprise is actually in the movie. And I thought fans reasoned that Kirk was a cadet at the time of The Cage a long time ago.
@123,124: remember, if it doesn’t say MicroMachines, it’s not the real thing :D
You know, for months I’ve been listening to people speculate that Nero’s trip back in time has to do with Kirk, Kirk’s family, father, Kirk, Kirk, Kirk.
Considering that we have two Spocks, I’m predicting that the character the Romulans are after is SPOCK.
I would love it if this film revolved around Spock, with Kirk as more of Spock’s sidekick. The next film could switch it up and be all about Kirk.
A devil looking and very loud Spock served under Pike for seven years, four months, five days and Kirk for 5 years but became forever best friends with Kirk? And don’t you have to be emotional to be friends with anyone in the first place? Maybe Sulu wasn’t the only one spending time in the big E’s closet practicing with his sword.
Just wondering.
#127—”I thought fans reasoned that Kirk was a cadet at the time of The Cage a long time ago”
The problem with that is mathematical.
Kirk is 34 years old in “The Deadly Years” (a second season episode)
Spock is 37 (some considerable time later, at the very least, after “COTEOF” and “JTB”) in “Yesteryear”.
If “TDY” is in the second year of the 5 year mission, and “YY” is in the final year of the 5 year mission, wouldn’t that make them the same age?
Besides, “fan reasoning” amounts to ‘fanon’…not canon.
Otherwise, I agree with your post.
#128—I felt that way as well until recently. As much as it makes more sense for Nero and company to target Spock (if anyone), it is looking more and more like a plot to kill Kirk and/or one of his ancestors.
:(
Why any Romulans would have more beef with Kirk than with the seemingly much more relevant Spock….I have no idea, beyond maybe some general wish to erase the historic 5 year mission.
But with this creative team…who knows?
#130 – oops. that was typo. I meant Spock, not Kirk.
so now that there’s a few pics out do you think anyone will repost the leaked set pics of the shuttle and the away team jacket from a few months ago?
Hit send too early. I’m having that kind of day.
And yeah, I Kirk and Spock are about the same age. The old Okuda chronology book basically put the Deadly Years in the third or fourth year of the five year mission as I recall. Voyager places the end of the five year mission in 2270. That’s one of the few hard fact about the original series timeline we’ve been given.
But there’s plenty of room for interpretation. All that stuff only so important as long as the stories interesting.
#54 John from Cincinnati
I’ll second that sentiment. 13 days was an absolutely outstanding movie, Greenwood did an excellent job.
Maybe Spock is a teacher at the Academy and he and Kirk become friends after Pike introduces him?
A random poster I read in the comments over at AICN recently claimed that he had worked briefly on the Trek set, and described a post-Kobayashi Maru court scene, with Kirk and Spock trading debate and insults… so it appears they are shown being at the academy together…if you believe what this guy has to say…
I have not had time to read all the comments, so this may have already been proposed. Maybe Pike’s interaction with the “kids” is AFTER he is promoted and he is a Fleet Admiral for most of the movie. Pike and Kirk could not have been the same age as Kirk was the youngest captain in Starfleet history.
Montreal Paul
sorry if that was harsh. I guess it is just a pet peeve and that hoax has shown up a lot lately. It is a pet peeve of mine for people to use this site to try to create hoaxes and rumors, claim to have inside info, etc. Over the last two years we have had to ban a few of these fake insiders. The problem is people see stuff on this site and think that it is somehow endorsed as real just because it is here. Somone here posted a fake synopsis of the movie and I had someone come up to me at Comic Con and say ‘i read that description of the movie at your site’ and I was like ‘what?’ and this was some one who I respect who is an actual industry insider (though not on Trek). Other websites have even linked in to comments here.
That is why we are vigilant against any fakery, be it pictures, fake insider accounts and especailly fake names (eg: people posting pretending to be JJ Abrams or other famous names). The value of this site depends on its reputation for accuracy and reporting scoops and debunking fakes…
all that said if I was harsh, I am sorry.
But I suggest to anyone who thinks they ahve found something real to send it in via the tipline. If we do not report on it, assume it was a fake. I have recieved that crappy photo of a fake enterprise by a dozen or so people so far. Sometimes, we do stories on fakes, usually when other sites report them as real. So far no site has fallen for that one.
cannon schmannon.
WOW ANTHONY!
That’s quite an endorsement! : )
I wonder?
Are we to understand that my plot synopsis is more accurate than even I assumed? Think about it. You said an Industry Insider asked about the synopsis. (i read that description of the movie at your site)
Did he say “Why, or How is this online already?
Make me wonder. ; )
no…it is wrong and i dont like seeing you try and push your hoaxes again and again so stop it. It is not accurate…100% guaranteed
I can’t decide if it would be a slap in the face if the cover for this small slip of canon goes something like – -
[To Kirk] – “Now, son, this whole mission is top secret. You cannot divulge any facet of it, who you served with, anything. If you do, well, we’ll be very, very angry!”
[Kirk] – “Yes, sir! I never violate orders! You can count on me, yes siree!”
Oy.
HA!
No, really. I am sorry if I offended you, or caused any embarassment.
I guess its a big deal to alot of people. But is was only speculation and a good yarn to be told to other Trek fans waiting for the new movie without any good chunks of intel. Meant all in fun. I did come clean a few posts later anyhow for those who follow along.
Anyhow, thanks for answering!
By the way if you want to erase those old posts. I won’t mind a bit.
Anthony…
Thank you for that apology. I do appreciate it. And I do understand your position. I meant no malice. I had not seen that picture before, and if I had.. i would have certainly not have posted it. In the future, I will leave the posting to the fine staff of Trekmovie.
144.
I make you look gooood.
#5. OneBuckFilms
Yeah that’s what I was thinking, could have done a scene with him Becoming a Commodore.
Oh yeah and I’m glad Commodore Lurker got his Cloaking device Fixed.
Data Killed Spot……he left the window open again didn’t he.
Why are people still concerned about the canon when the pictures reveal new uniforms, a totally different bridge and the fact that the filmmakers have said in interviews that the canon was more like a guide, not the law. In other words: the canon dictated the general parameters of what they can do with the universe, but otherwise, they’re rebooting it.
I actually prefer they go all the way and reboot the hell out of it, no halfies!
The Last Maquis
Designation 146
I can assure you that I’ve not spread anymore fake rumors, or posted under multiple screen names. I am a Borg Vulcan. I cannot lie. I thought everyone knew this.
And where’s Mongo?
My first post!
OK, everyone has got to calm down about canon.
You must remember that Orci and Kurtzman are ingenious. And JJ Abrams is a visonary.
This movie is supposed to be about TIME TRAVEL! This gives them the liberty to create their own NEW story as the time line will more than likely be altered!
I am going to appreciate the warm and fuzzy moments of canon this movie will give us. BUT, if you are going to be upset about things like whether the Enterprise was built on Earth or in space, I have a feeling the movie will disappoint you .
Give Star Trek’s future a chance! Have an open mind.
anthony,
have you seen the movie?
I hope you have my friend, and IF you have… you’ve been much classier about it than all the other dudes that are rubbing their macbooks in our faces.
or is it rubbing our noses in their macbooks feces?
I never get that one right.
THE WOMEN!!
=h=
#148. DATA KILLED SPOT!
That’s 146 of 150……to you, and Don’t even ask about my Tertiary adjunct of my Unimatrix either. You can’t see it. well maybe….
” 26. Bryan – October 23, 2008
The fact that Pike is being featured in the film at all strikes me as a big wet sloppy kiss to canon, so massaging a throwaway line about his meeting with Kirk in order to serve the new story doesn’t strike me as that damaging.”
Same here. Besides I stopped being a canon nut a long time ago. Provide me with a good Trek story and I’ll be happy as canon slips will not cause me to develop a psychological dysfunction.
Given that the events of “The Cage” took place 13 years before “The Menagerie” one would have to assume Pike is older than Kirk.
As long as the circumstances happen like described, Piek being promoted to Fleet Captain and his accident happens it shouldfit in ok.
another thing that i sort of amaze at is the fact that the Supreme Court as it were definitely pinpoint “all good things” as an influence, in fact, although i have never seen “lost” i remember there was also an episode that they did in tribute to that.
so i find it interesting that we all assume that this is a 2 point in time kind of movie – starting post nemesis, then traveling back to TOS time.
or just pre-TOS time
with some childhood spock n kirk in da mix, somehow.
at the end, we have basically a NEW timeline which cannot interrupt the timeline that we have known.
kirk in the black uniform – i have asked this before… perhaps because he is not supposed to be there?
are kirk and spock bouncing around through time together? is spock perhaps chasing kirk as well as nero?
i think this movie offers alot more than we have been able to speculate simply based on pictures and minor plot spoilers.
ask anthony – he’s seen it! (cross fingers)
THE WOMEN!!
=h=
Man, every time I see that shot, I realize that the bridge set looks like crap!
Canon? Canon? Who’s got the canon?
I’m just happy that a grand re-introduction of Trek is a reality.
I’m also happy it is being made by people who care about Trek and seem to LOVE Trek!
STAR TREK LIVES!
eh… they’re doing what they want to do… and that abomination of a bridge pretty much proves that.
It’s a smart way to go though. Go with something so far removed from the original bridge that you can prove “this ain’t your daddy’s Trek.”
God forbid they had given the original a little face lift. No, they had to go completely Michael Jackson.
What were we talking about? Oh canon! Yeah, means nothing.
…okay, to be fair, nothing in that little blurb violates canon at all. Not like that hideous bridge!
I’m not getting over this. And don’t give me any of that “hey at least it’s Star Trek” crap. That’s like peeing on my cupcake and calling it frosting.
“Mendez: You ever met Chris Pike?
Kirk: We met when he was promoted to fleet captain.
Mendez: About your age.”
THIS exchange violates canon.
Kirk was the youngest Captain in Star Fleet.
Spock relates that he had served with Pike for 7-plus years.
The events seen are to have taken place 13 years before.
Therefore: Spock must then have been with Kirk for about 6 years at that point, so are the events of TOS may be part of the 2nd 5-year mission. And my guess is the events of this movie (and any sequels) are part of the FIRST 5-year mission….
THUS: No canon violation (except maybe Checkov)…
I’m thinking about this WAY TOO MUCH!
Why didn’t Pike and Kirk meet when Kirk got the Captain of the Enterprise? Wouldn’t he be there at the ceremony? Maybe Pike wasn’t there at the ceremony, but that wouldn’t make much sense.
Kirk and pike cannot be the same age so its one thing I can accept
The only thing violating canon for me big time is the bridge other than that the film should work fine.
Wasn’t Mendez one of the Talosians really? So I think what he said doesn’t matter, it could be a lie, or a wrong information…
The medez who said that was the real one
The illusionary Mendez was on shuttle with Kirk onwards
Will Number One, Tyler and Boyce be seen when Pike is in command of the enterprise?
Enterprise being built in orbit/on Earth:
Ah, this old chestnut again.
OK, Enterprise-D was definitely built at Utopia Planitia, at Mars. We have actually seen construction of Galaxy and Nebula class starships in orbital facilities, but there is a picture in the TNG episode ‘Parallels’ which appears to show a Galaxy Class saucer section being built on the Martian surface.
The most logical explanation is that the various components are built on the ground, and assembled in orbit. This could also hold true for the TOS Enterprise.
However, one thing that you have to remember about canon is that its not 100% homogenous. It contradicts itself, just like real history. So the odd error can actually be put down to bad memory recollection, or error, or lies, or misinterpretation.
I WANT THE TRAILER NOW. LET’S SEE THE BIG E.
Hopefully Kirk meets Pike in the film when Pike is being promoted to Fleet Captain. To me it makes sense that Pike is older.
But Kirk said he only met him once, logically he should have more scenes with Spock than Kirk.
its a stretch to canon but this is one I think if done right then it could be fine.
My major gripe is that bridge, nothing like the original and the captain’s chair doesn’t look as cool as the other ones.
I believe I will love the film when it comes out despite the changes.
Dont retcon the timeline because that would be like erasing the original series, I hate that idea
Spok is only around 3 years older than Kirk, Spock was born in 2230 and 2233
Hope the writers knew that
@ captian_neill: Get over it, it’ll not be that bad. Have confidence! Optimism captain…
I am really looking forward seeing cast pictures of Greenwood and Nimoy.
Those pics are still missing…
After the initial shock of seeing the bridge looking so different than it has before, I’m loving it.
Previous Trek bridges all had dim and subdued lighting. Thinking back, I found it hard to see the characters and the action very well, particularly in the movies. Look how dim ST4 (TVH) looks. TWOK is so dim also. Every Klingon ship we have ever seen has a dim, dingy look to it. Some may think it was done to create ambiance but more likely it was due to the cheap looking sets, costumes, makeup and props they had to use. Wouldn’t want to show them it bright light where their cheap fakiness would be apparent.
I always like the look of TOS episodes and movies when they filmed outside in the daylight. “This Side of Paradise”, “The Paradise Syndrome”, “Shore Leave”, San Fransisco in “TVH” etc looked good because they had bright natural lighting. Now the bridge also looks bright and has a natural lighting look to it.
What impresses me also is that as I look on the new bridge, my eyes immediately go to the characters – like they should. The characters stand out against the bright neutral background and I can follow them and their actions so easily now. It was tougher to do this with the old style bridge lights. And the characters all look so good, they resemble the originals.
Love the look of the newer technology on the bridge. Bring on the scanners. To think the Enterprise isn’t as automated as we already have become and that it would still rely on writing on a clip board that has a blinking light flashing at me is ridiculous. Its almost as ridiculous as seeing Christopher Pike sitting in a wheel chair with a flashing light when Stephen Hawking already has a communication system more advanced than that. What if we do see Pike’s accident – if they update his blinking wheelchair – it won’t be canon!! Horrors.
This newer bridge is more likely to represent what we might find in the future than the old one was. Technology advancements need to be incorporated into the new bridge design for it to be anywhere near believable. The younger audience that Trek needs to attract will laugh if they don’t update the bridge to, at least, current levels of technology. Nostalgia can be adverse to technology, but Trek is supposed to be about the future.
I do have confidence to a degree and as I said the Pike thing is a thing that will not make a difference, no different than a line of dialogue being contradicted before. on the show. Sure Nemesis is treated as canon yet contradicts many things from TNG show. Dialogue is minor to me where as the bridge looking completely different seems to me to be a major violation.
I can live with it eventually, just dont ask me to compare it to the original, as the original will always win out. its the same with remakes and covers of songs. I think the bridge is too clincal looking. Should have kept TOS colour scheme.
I just dont want them to forget what has gone before. I want those new kids to see TOS and TNG and the rest
It is possible that Spock, like I’ve speculated about McCoy, also came into the Academy well educated and, like McCoy, had an abbreviated training period. Basic training only perhaps.
Since his father started training Spock in computers at a young age, and from “Court Martial” we know Spock already has honors from the Vulcan Science Academy, Spock might need little training in some areas. If he was as brilliant as we see in TOS, they might want to get Spock out in the field doing research and scientific exploration ASAP. He could have effectively placed out of most of the academics at the Academy. He still would need some training for service on a Starship, but it might be short.
He could be at the academy with Kirk and/or McCoy briefly, then sent off with Pike and the Enterprise quickly. This could account for his some of his years serving under Pike yet being close to age with Kirk.
158
it’s 11 years not seven and i really wish the author of the article would correct the dialog information to reflect this. don’t believe me? go watch it here:
http://www.cbs.com/classics/star_trek/
There are loads of contradictions, fanons and wild speculations surrounding Pike’s departure and Kirk’s arrival on the Big E anyway.
The use of material from The Cage throws all sorts of spanners in the works from the start. For example, Spock is far more emotional and Tyler implies that warp speed has been developed within the last two decades (’We’ve broken the time barrier! Our new ships can . . . )
On top of that, now that The Cage has seen worldwide broadcast, effectively ***everything*** in the pilot becomes canon (if you’re an obsessive who has no life and actually gives a damn!)
The early days of Star Trek saw lots of contradictions, but anyone can shrug them off and come up with their own theory (maybe UESPA is a division of the Starfleet, for example.)
I think it’s a shame so many people seem to want everything explained in laborious, nerdy detail. I’ve always enjoyed speculating about how events played out.
RE: 172 BK613
“It’s 11 years not seven and i really wish the author of the article would correct the dialog information to reflect this. ”
Eleven years, four months, and five days to be exact. I stand corrected.
17
I think I am beginning to come from your perspective. You do make a valid point.
I have considered myself a strict constructionist but agree dialogue doesn’t lock for me like visual continunity. The shows have contradicted themselves in dialogue and the only ones are there ones that were obviously changed. As long as the film respects Roddenberry it should work.
It is harder for me to like the bridge, wish it was more faithful.
For example in season 1 of Voyager Torres says her dad walked out when she was 5 but Lineage (Season 7) it was changed to 12.
jebus CANON OVERLOAD…CANON CORE BREACH etc..
blimey..surely the fact that (parts of) this movie appear to be set around 10 years or so after The Cage and that Jeff Hunter was about 40 in that and Greenwood is about 50 shows that canon is being roughly adherred to?
Lets talk about Greenwood instead of canon…as I said to bob orci in a previous thread, its great that ‘JFK’ is playing the original captain of enterprise..tying in with that early 60s Kennedy space frontier optimism that inspired the original Trek (and De Forrests hairdo!)..who better to captain the enterprise before Kirk than Kennedy!
it was a nice touch that we heard JFK in the trailer (’The eyes of the world….’) giving it that ‘reality trek’-how we get from now to ST – and its inspired that Greenwood was chosen as Pike who was fantastic in Thirteen Days…instead of Cruise or Liotta or whoever was rumoured…After all ‘Bobby Kennedy’ has already played 1st Officer on the Enterprise (to Picard in the Nemesis deleted scenes) so it makes sense!
In fact i think its Greenwood/Pike i’m looking foward to seeing most!…will he act like he did in Thirteen Days or like Hunter? etc…
In an alternate timeline canon can jettison the canon pod and Ben Finney along with it. And I couldn’t be happier.
I’m just glad that a Star Trek movie is being made. Yes, I was abit disappointed that the bridge does not have any resemblence to the original show.
“Yes, I was abit disappointed that the bridge does not have any resemblence to the original show.”
I’m with you there. I like the high tech screens, but I miss the black plexiglass and red trim. Black with red always looks good. Love it on the original batmobile, my cell phone and the TOS bridge.
The only problem I have with the i-bridge is the colors just don’t seem to compliment the TOS style uniforms. In fact, there is a certain disconnect in my brain when I see those TOS style uniforms walking around that decidedly un-TOS style bridge. It’s like they don’t belong together. Eventually I got over it, but my first impression was that it was wrong.
Could it be possible that the pictures we have seen of the crew on the E are actually post TOS???
I mean, Abrams, et al have said this is not exactly a prequel. We know time travel is involved. But, just because Pike for example will be in the film, doesn’t mean that the pics on the bridge of the E happen shortly after his command.
Then, the issues of Chekov (exaclty when did he show up), Sulu, Scotty, and Spock wearing different colored shirts in WNMHGB, etc. may be non-issues.
(granted, there may be new issues under this theory – like Bones appears about 15 years younger – but hey, he is a Doctor dammit. Maybe he discovered a new alien skin cream.)
Abrams likes to jump all over the place when it comes to chronology, so maybe all we have seen so far is a post TOS updated bridge.
The black shirted Kirk could be…
1. The cadet Kirk who himself has time traveled – thus prompting Spock to administer the choke hold, thinking he may be an imposter.
2. In a new command uniform for the post TOS era.
3. Who knows?
Just some thoughts…
…If it turns out to be true – you heard it here first. ;)
We don’t know for sure that the image is Kirk on the Enterprise. For all we know, that could be the bridge of the Konyashi Maru simulator.
As far as canon, it never made sense for Kirk and Pike to be the same age if Spock served with him for several years before he served with Kirk. Pike would have been, what, in high school when he commanded the Enterprise? That should be in the same league as “James R Kirk” as far as canon goes.
…actually, in one of the articles they have said that it is the bridge of the E in the pictures, not a simulator.
” WANT THE TRAILER NOW. LET’S SEE THE BIG E.”
3 long weeks to go. Anyone know if he will hit the internet that same day as being tied with the Bond film? I was planning on see Quantum anyway but it would be nice to be able to watch it over and over and obsess. ;)
183- Hi there
How you been?
I am eager to see the trailer, what did you think of the pics?
I likethe uniforms and the actors look well but the bridge has been a disappointed to me, doesn’t seem faithful to TOS.
The bridge looks awesome. We are seeing the bridge from an angle that can not be judged.
The money shot will be the wide shot from the view screen looking towards the entire bridge. The captains chair is perfect and they didnt spend 150m + to have cardboard walls and and photographs of planets.
I disagree with a previous post about the color of the bridge and the uniforms not standing out. The bridge is white. The uniforms stand out like a sore thumb. RED, DARK BLUE AND GOLD against the white is incredible visual and accentuates the uniforms.
Mark my words, the bridge will not disappoint.
#93: He does. This is nitpicking, but Jeffrey Hunter had some grey hair in “The Cage” so Pike is probably older if he meets Kirk in this movie. But heck, if that’s not the case then oh well!
RE: 179. star trackie — Yes, it does seem like there is a disconnect. They went to all the trouble of re-creating the TOS uniforms to look like the originals, but they didn’t so the same with the bridge. It if was me, I would have done the bridge in the TOS layout, but with an updated look & feel. But like I said, I’m just happy the movie is being made. And I’m keeping an open mind to it.
Sorry I didn’t read all the posts above, but this article brought to mind good ‘ole Z Cochrane in First Contact. There wasn’t anything similar with that character to the one depicted in Classic Trek.
But it still was a good, enjoyable movie.
There’s little logic in having the small stuff ruin the whole thing for you. It’s like having a charming, sexy, knock-out significant other, but letting their big mole on their foot ruin the rest of them for you.
Let’s do the math.
(If someone posted something similar already, i apologize – i don’t have time to read through all posts.)
I know I’ve read somewhere that Kirk was the youngest CPT to take command at 29. (Canon or not – I don’t know)
In the Deadlly Years (Season 2) Kirk says he is 34 years old. The Menagerie (Season 1) took place between Kirk being 29 and 34 – let’s say 33.
If KIrk was 33, and the events of the Cage (as indicated in Menagerie) were 13 years prior, then if Kirk and Pike are ‘the same age’ – then Pike would have been 20ish. Not possible if we go with the notion that Kirk was youngest Captain.
So, Mendez’s comment should be read as ‘about the same age’ – which is exactly what he said. So ‘about the same age’ could mean ‘give or take a decade’ which would differentiate him from someone much, much older than Kirk.
From now on, canon issues that make sense and might be worth mentioning should be spelled “canon”.
Canon issues that makes no difference whatsoever or are obviously writer’s gaffes should be spelled “kanon”.
Canon issues that are used by obsessive nitpicking psychopaths who imagine bursar collectors turn at 72 rpm counter-clockwise for A VERY GOOD REASON may be spelled “cannon” (or SAC, for “stupid-ass cannon”.
And references to any old tv series featuring balding detectives in Las Vegas should be spelled “Mike Cannon”.
Hope this helps.
#165—”But Kirk said he only met him once”
Not exactly. What he said was, “We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain.”
That could be interpreted as describing the time they met, but not necessarily the last time they saw each other.
He didn’t say, “We met ‘once’, when he was promoted to Fleet Captain.”
There is a bit of latitude there, as Kirk’s language is vague on that point.
This is a total NON issue.
What are you talking about breaking cannon? Nothing that Bruce said or the scene from ‘The Menagerie’ has any contradiction at all?
Please report news!
I hate the bridge. It doesn’t look canon at all and is as far away from that style as it could be. I don’t mean it should follow the TOS design by the letter, but should use the same style, timeline frame wise to create a similar flavor and atmosphere. This new JJ Abrams bridge is a fail, in my opinion.
I also hate the female uniforms. The TOS female uniforms were sexy and these we see in the shots of the new movie look like something out of a penal colony – ugly and lacking elegance.
Oh, i forgot to mention. Those should be visors on the panel, not lamps.
#192—”The Menagerie” does have a contradiction which will likely require a ruling from the self-proclaimed “Supreme Court”.
Kirk’s age is established in “TDY” (2nd season) as 34.
Commodore Mendez suggests that Pike and Kirk are about the same age, yet Pike was in command (and a veteran captain) at least 11 years prior to the events of the episode in question. Even if “The Menagerie” takes place a full year before “TDY”, that makes Kirk 33 years old.
Is Captain Pike “about” 22 years old when the Enterprise first visits Talos IV?
I would speculate that the “ruling” was made to ignore Mendez’s statement, and cast Greenwood to portray Pike as being significantly older than Kirk. It seems clear to me that even more than a decade before “The Menagerie”, Pike is a seasoned veteran starship captain (thus the stereotypical “the strain is wearing on me” speech to the doctor and mid-life crisis type “what my life could have been” daydreams).
That was a classic canon gaffe fueled by a single line of dialogue (not unlike Adm. Morrow’s “The Enterprise is 20 years old” line in TSFS).
The creative team will inevitably have to make ‘judgements’ where contradictions already exist. Some of them (like this one) will be very easy to make.
It isn’t exactly to the same degree as deciding to set the TOS-era in the 23rd Century after the 79 episodes of TOS had already been in syndication for about a decade—in stark contradiction to ‘that’ ruling in many episodes, particularly in the first season.
This is a ‘minor’ canon ruling to make.
Several points:
Pike and Kirk: Spock said he served under Pike on the Enterprise for eleven years. That means Pike has been Captain for at least 11 years since no lower rank can command a Constitution class starship. That also means Pike was already a Captain at about the same time Kirk was graduating from the academy. Kirk was about 32, 33 when he became the youngest Captain in Starfleet, 11 years prior would make him 21-22, the age of graduation. Pike definitely has to be at least 10 years older than Kirk.
The Bridge: It sucks. No angle can explain the ugly concierge desk with the hostess standing there ready to take your reservation. The uniforms are a perfect blend of taking the ’60’s look and updating it slightly. You can’t say that about the bridge. There is nothing retro-looking at all about the new bridge. Everyone says that’s the point, that the bridge looks 21st century now. Uh, the bridge is supposed to be 23rd century, not 21st. If everyone who actually saw the bridge is right about seeing it in action looking different, then let’s see some more pics depicting this more retro look of the bridge, I would like to see them.
OK, after 195 messages and all of the previous things mentioned in the recent EW article, I’m surprised no one has quite articulated a sensible explanation.
The EW article suggests that the Romulan’s attack on the USS Kelvin happened before Kirk was even born.
If we assume that it was Nero attacking the USS Kelvin and he destroys it or kills a lot of people, then his presence alters the timeline (or canon) of events even before Kirk is born.
If that’s all true then Nero alters the timeline at a point where: 1. The Enterprise hasn’t even been built yet; 2. Most of the Enterprise crew hasn’t even been born yet; and 3. Pike hasn’t been injured yet by the delta radiation accident.
This kind of temporal event would probably be significant enough to alter the timeline enough for JJ to change the trek universe from that point on- especially if Nero continues to try to wreak havoc after the attack on the Kelvin.
So- all the stuff about Kirk being assigned to the Farragut, Pike being fleet captain, Kirk meeting Pike before when he became fleet captain all goes out the door…
# 197 -
aha… hence the comment that some fans will scream ‘heresy!’…
i feel ya dog
164. James –
“OK, Enterprise-D was definitely built at Utopia Planitia, at Mars. We have actually seen construction of Galaxy and Nebula class starships in orbital facilities, but there is a picture in the TNG episode ‘Parallels’ which appears to show a Galaxy Class saucer section being built on the Martian surface.”
Look at that scene again (in ep “Booby Trap”). Nothing definitively shows the E on the surface of Mars, it shows the E being constructed inside a huge building. To me that suggests it’s inside a massive orbital station like Spacedock from TSFS or “11001001″. I never felt this huge ‘room’ was some hangar on the surface of Mars, but an orbital dock.
#197—No doubt that’s possible, but we do not actually know that the attack upon the USS Kelvin did not happen before. We have heard that Romulans did it. Well, who is to say that the Federation was ever aware of who the attackers were, particularly if they were equipped with a cloaking device a generation before “Balance Of Terror’ (which seems likely, given that in ENT they had already begun utilizing an unmanned prototype).
199. Izbot – October 24, 2008
164. James -
My apologies. I see you were talking about a scene from “Paralels” which I had forgotten. Just looked it up on Memory Alpha and you are right. It does appear that some construction of the E-D was done on the surface.
Hey, I know, everybody: At the end, someone steps out of the shower and says, “It was all a dream!”
#42. CaptainlordBat, that is the wisest thing anyone has ever said on these boards.
#147. I agree – and I’m curious why superficial aesthetic choices (such as uniform or bridge design, or “hair dews”) are regarded by some as pure canon issues. To me, a fair analogy would be a new production of Hamlet that uses the Bard’s original text but dresses everyone as 1950s greasers (or whatever).
#190. Canon issues involving graphics, design or and visual effects shall be referred to as “Canon EOS SLR with Standard Zoom Lens.”
#197. I think something similar has been suggested in other threads.
196: “No angle can explain the ugly concierge desk with the hostess standing there ready to take your reservation.”
I wonder…what would people be saying if in that shot a *man* was standing at that console?
#203—”Host”, perhaps. :)
Just to throw a wrench in the works, nothing says that Captain Pike is an Earthborn Human. He could easily have a different lifecycle than Kirk, just like Spock.
198- I think you’re onto something.
My guess is that Nero is attacking the USS Kelvin to get at someone significant in Trek lore, and Nero probably succeeds in killing someone relatively important.
Why else does the scene open up the movie and is described as “emotionally-wrenching”? The bottom line is that the attack on the Kelvin is a “new” event that did not occur in the TOS timeline.
Maybe Spock’s parents? Kirk’s father (while his mother is on Earth and pregnant)? Someone important gets killed and wacks up the timeline to launch the plot of the new movie.
34: I don’t know if anyone else has responded to your comment about McCoy’s rank from the above picture… But I had wondered the same thing. So, I decided to take a closer look. It appears to me that both of this braids are not the same size. He seems to have one line and one double thick line.
#205—That would be reaching a bit, IMO. Earth years, or Solar years, have usually been referenced anyway.
In any case, I can’t see that applying here. Mendez does not pinpoint either Kirk’s or Pike’s age in any form of measurement. He only suggests that the age of both Kirk and Pike is close, relative to one another.
If he said, “He’s about your age”, wouldn’t he be using a constant form of time measurement to make that determination?
Mendez’s assertion simply doesn’t mesh with the timeline established by Spock later in the episode, unless a difference of 15 or so (estimation) years constitutes the same general age in his mind (quite a stretch, IMO).
Making Pike significantly older (and ignoring the error in dialogue)is the way to go in my opinion.
#206—-That is well thought-out speculation. The question is, how significant is the catalyst event, and what “domino-like” changes might occur as a result?
Think of it this way. How different is the United States today after the Sept. 11th attacks in 2001 than you believe it might be had the attack never occurred? How different is the World in general as a result?
Does the Federation become more defense-oriented in its thinking? Is Starfleet more aggressive as a result? Do these possible differences result in asthetic changes? Is the color scheme on the bridge reflective of the different mood of the UFP?
My guess is, while the path changes a bit, Spock (Nimoy) is at least partially successful in preventing the presumably rogue Romulans from succeeding in whatever they are attempting to change. I think that, in the end, the Federation (and our heroes) do not succumb to a different manner of thinking, philosophy, or ultimate destiny.
The Enterprise still ends up boldly going where no man has gone before, with Kirk in command, and Spock and McCoy at his side.
Huh???
Can someone please spell this out to me? I dont understand what this article is getting at.
Bruce Greenwood said that he (as Pike) is in scenes with Pine (Kirk). TOS said that Kirk and Pike met, when Kirk took over from him.
So what is the possible violation of canon? I can’t see any contradiction there. Kirk will meet Pike in the film when Kirk takes over from him.
Am I just tired tonight, or what?
???
Let’s be REALISTIC here…
Mr. Orci and Mr. Kurtzman are both staying true to canon.
What they’ve said thus far (via interviews) has been truthful.
The events of this movie are centered around time travel. As seen in other Trek productions, changes to the timeline create new outcomes, new possibilities. It’s IDIC = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations – the heart and soul of Star Trek.
I hate to think that the events of “The Cage” (aka “The Menagerie”) will change, or never occur if Pike’s character is prevented from that destiny. But as we’re seeing, the timeline changes are KEY to this film.
I’m looking forward to Spock saying “That’s not how it occured in my timeline…”
following the whole ‘Kelvin incident changes the timeline’ theory…
What if in the ‘new’ timeline, say, Kirk’s Mom & Dad conceive him a week or two later than the original timeline. The sperm cells would be different, therefore in essence he would in fact be a different human being. (Thus, explaining the difference in looks from Shanter)
But, his parents still gave him the name James T., he still grew up in Iowa, etc. So his life experiences are very much the same, but not identical to the original JTK.
The same theory could be applied to all characters, who look similar to, but not identical to their TOS counterparts. Same for technology (bridge design) etc, etc, etc,….
206- You’ve hit it on the nose with your analogy of a “catalyst” event like 9/11 that changes the direction of history (and set design, apparently).
We know the attack on the Kelvin is significant because it opens the movie, Orci calls it “emotionally wrenching,” and that fans will scream “heresy.”
That sounds a lot like someone important (that we know and love from the TOS) dying an untimely death due to Nero. But it’s someone not THAT important so as to screw up the original crew from getting together. I;m guessing that it’s Spock’s parents because that would immediately (and directly) trigger old Spock’s involvement in the plot
That’s presumably why old Spock has to follow Nero back in time: to try to undo as much of the damage to the timeline as possible in light of the deaths on the Kelvin (and whatever else Nero screws with or tries to screw with).
So, it changes trek history in many significant ways, but not enough to divert the rivers of time theory posed in “The City on the Edge of Forever.”
With Spock’s help, the original crew does get together on the bridge of the Enterprise, but in a way different than what was described in TOS. Again, so all of the canon concerning Pike’s past and future and Kirk’s service on the Farragut gets jettisoned.
*Regarding my last post (#212) – it could also explain why McCoy parts his hair on the other side now…
:)
Canon choked the life out of Trek and its time to restart this puppy.
I feel that people who are Canon dogmatics use it to turn a fake world into a real one. Its not real, its fiction and authors are entitled to reinterpret the story for successive generations. What we need is a good story. At least Orci and Abrams are throwing a bone to the “canonites” by allowing the their Spock to be in the movie.
I don’t think Spock cares enough about one individual to go messing around with timelines. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few etc.
What he realizes is that the universe, through Nero’s machinations, has becomes a horrible place. In essence then, he decides to sacrifice himself in order to correct the timeline. $10 bucks says the last few lines of the movie, is Nimoy fading away (ala back to the future) or finding a “secluded island’ (ala First Contact) to let the future go on without future interruption.
203.
“I wonder…what would people be saying if in that shot a *man* was standing at that console?”
I would say, “No angle can explain the ugly concierge desk with the host standing there ready to take your reservation.”
#213—AICN reported that George Kirk is an officer aboard another starship in one of the scenes shown to Harry Knowles by Mr. Abrams.
That ship is probably the Kelvin, and Kirk’s father is possibly a casualty. It is possible that JTK’s conception has already taken place by that time (and Nero could have struck a bit late). Then again, it may wipe out Kirk’s existence, and this could be somthing Spock has to rectify with his own time travel incursion.
I like that none of this is completely clear.
#215—”Canon choked the life out of Trek”
I think it was mediocre storytelling and uninteresting characters…
217- George Kirk getting killed is also a real possibility.
It would make sense in light of rumors that there was a role written for an uncle in the Kirk family and that there are scenes featuring a JTK and his older brother as children. If George Kirk gets killed, then maybe JTK is fathered and raised by his uncle, instead?
212- Good point about how a shock to the timeline, before the crew is even born, would result in our beloved TOS characters coming out of the womb looking a little bit different….
#210 – Agree completely. In “The Menagerie”, Kirk knew Pike well enough to call him Chris, so it would seem to have been more than a brief meeting.
Okay, I know going in to this that I’m probably going to get blasted, but here goes… there’s one major thing that will always trump canon and that is REALITY. There was no Eugenics War. We don’t have sleeper ships now, nor did we in the 1990’s. Etc, etc, etc. I understand the need that a lot of us have, to follow canon as something that really enables us to suspend our disbelief. I used to always be a canon fanatic as well. But one thing I’ve realized is that sometimes you have to bend the rules. Give the movie a chance. See what they present. If it’s a piece of shit in the end, THEN blast it. If it’s a great piece of work and makes a wonderful addition to the Trek epic, then let it be. (I have a feeling it will be good because Paramount has FINALLY decided to spend a little bit of money on it, but that’s another subject) If you watch the original series today, you have to admit that it’s starting to show it’s age, even the remastered version with the digital effects. It was ground breaking for it’s day, but this isn’t the 1960s any more. I hope to see you all on opening night! (Okay, and at the Bond flick to see the trailer. I’ll be there too!)
This is a long shot, but…
Both George Kirk Sr. and Chris Pike are aboard the Kelvin when it is attacked. George dies. Pike lives. Pike consoles George’s widow. They grow close, get married, and have a son together…James T. Pike.
Hey, this wild conjecture thing is fun.
It would explain JTK’s blue eyes…
210 & 220- That scenario doesn’t work for a number of reasons:
1. Greenwood’s and Pine’s obvious age disparities makes the “about your age” Kirk-Pike reference from TOS’s Menagerie dead;
2. Pine is obviously quite a bit younger than Shatner was when he took the bridge in 1966, which suggests that JJ’s Kirk takes command of the enterprise much earlier than in TOS;
3. Pine is wearing a cadet uniform when he takes command of JJ’s Enterprise, which would make no sense in TOS because Kirk had been a commissioned officer onboard the Farragut for a number of years (and older) before being assigned to Enterprise.
4. Harry Knowles of AICN news, in his sneak peek with JJ, described seeing a scene where cadets are being read their assignments and Pine’s Kirk in a cadet uniform being upset by not being assigned anywhere. Knowles also described seeing some of the TOS characters arriving on the Enterprise’s bridge with Pike as captain.
4. All of the above suggests that JJ’s Kirk has to take control of Enterprise from Pike under some kind of extreme extenuating circumstances, especially given his age and cadet status. Again, this is not the TOS history described in the Menagerie.
I bet Harrison Ford plays Capt April
I haven’t read all the posts so if this is a repeat please forgive me. It doesn’t make much sense that Pike would be the same age as Kirk since Kirk is supposed to be one of the youngest Captains ever promoted in Star Fleet and since Pike was in command well before Kirk it doesn’t really add up. So I guess we need to figure out is the cannon wrong in the original series.
maybe kirk is not given assignment… because he does not exist?
yet is there?
i think the timeline stuff is going to be pretty complex to – as the writers say – preserve all the timeline prior to, as well as establish a new timeline where anything can happen to anyone again.
its total cake and eat it too, and i love it. AS gump, said – destiny and random occurence happening at the same time.
and i’m with whoever said to judge the movie after the fact as a whole. all indications are that it is going to be great.
canon is a funny thing. re: the conversation about the enterprise being 20 years old when it was really 40. it’s funny how we assume all dialog to be the truth, when in reality we know that people can be misinformed, sarcastic, and even outright liars. maybe the guy only thought the enterprise was 20. maybe he wasnt thinking when he said that, only to make the point that it was old – 20, 40 years rather than brand spanking new like excelsior.
i dont know man, these are just things to ponder i like the discussions, though. this thinktank keeps it real and honest. but remember to enjoy the movie too!
THE WOMEN!!
=h=
Man, I’m growing weiry of these canon debates. The film is destined to HONOR canon, not to stick to its letter.
It’s going to be a clear cut as Nero’s actions are going to introduce a second timeline. Canon is honored by the fact that the old timeline still exists in another quantum reality. That’s it: nothing more, nothing less…
Get used to the idea! Nuff said!
203.
“I wonder…what would people be saying if in that shot a *man* was standing at that console?”
206.
I would say, “No angle can explain the ugly concierge desk with the host standing there ready to take your reservation.”
Ha! Of course. :) Fair enough.
#224—”Pine is wearing a cadet uniform when he takes command of JJ’s Enterprise”
We don’t know that is the case. He could be wearing a cadet uniform because he is taking the KM test. Orci and Kurtzman’s favorite ST movie is TWOK. Abrams is a fan of that film as well. I would be surprised not to see that notorious event depicted in this film.
” Harry Knowles of AICN news, in his sneak peek with JJ, described seeing a scene where cadets are being read their assignments and Pine’s Kirk in a cadet uniform being upset by not being assigned anywhere.”
That description( if even accurate) suggested that scene took place at SFA, and it was supposed to be depicting their “first” assignments after graduation. That should have nothing to do with at what point Kirk actually is given command of the Enterprise. The story will likely jump around in the timeline a bit. Furthermore, Knowles claimed that Uhura was also not given assignment to the Enterprise at that point, and looked to Spock for consolation. That would seem to conflict with your assertion that Kirk is definitively in command already in that photo, since Uhura is in the picture as well.
“Knowles also described seeing some of the TOS characters arriving on the Enterprise’s bridge with Pike as captain.”
Actaully, he was a little hazy on exactly what it is he saw in that scene, particularly, who was in command. He “thought” it might be Pike.
“Kirk takes command of the enterprise much earlier than in TOS”
Possibly true, but none of what you talked about proves that. Your speculation is not without the possibility of being correct, but it is hardly a given.
The bottom line is this…
If events are not depicted as they were vaguely described in TOS, it isn’t necessarily a canon violation. It could simply be a succession of events taking place in an altered timeline which end up producing a similar result.
Thusfar, nothing has been set in stone as to how significant any potential timeline changes will be.
#218 – True, but having writers and storytellers have to sit and abide by 40 years of “established fact” did nothing to help mediocore storytelling. At some point, adherence to the “facts of the universe” took precedence over telling stories. I mean good god, you have people really upset because a movie in 2009 will maybe overwrite a throwaway line from the 1960’s…what makes it even funnier was that line was written to “retcon” the original pilot into the series.
I suspect George Kirk will be killed on the Kelvin — and EW said fans would call this “heresy” not because it necessarily contradicts established canon (in the TV series and films, as opposed to the books, we never learned anything whatsoever about George Kirk) but because it’s a highly significant event that has never been mentioned before, or perhpas because it leads to the rumored abuse of Kirk by his uncle. (The abusive uncle and Chekov’s presence are the only two things about the movie that bother me at all so far.)
Closettrekker should win an award, or at least a cupcake, for his Vulcan approach to what is and isn’t canon. I disagree sometimes, but I really admire his steadfastness.
I think it’s pretty straightforward:
>The bridge shot is on Pike’s Enterprise.
>The black shirt is not a cadet uniform–it’s an undershirt The red outfits in the pic with Kirk and McCoy are the cadet uniforms.
>The bridge shot is not the Kobayashi Maru, as the producers clearly state that the picture depicts the Enterprise and because previous posts have indicated that the Kelvin bridge is a different set, and that the KM bridge is a redress of the Kelvin bridge set.
>Nero attacks the Kelvin, probably killing George Kirk, then proceeds to the Farragut when it turns out that Jim has already been conceived.
>Nero attacks the Farragut, Kirk escapes in a pod and is picked up by the Enterprise.
>Fleet Captain Pike, AFTER his handover of the Enterprise to Kirk, was injured when his Class J starship failed to protect him from a massive radiation exposure while on a training mission. To me, this story sounds like a cover up. Why would a Ft.Capt. be on a decrepit old ship, on a training mission, and despite everything the future has to offer can only communicate in yes/no fashion?
I think we’ll find out that Pike was actually injured while protecting the Enterprise from Nero. Kirk was given a field command of the Enterprise. At the end of the story, Spock wipes Kirk’s [and others'] memory, perhaps adding an extra layer of intrigue to the events in “The Menagerie.”
#232—-I’m not sure why the possibility of an uncle with an unkind demeanor would bother you, and we certainly don’t know at what point we’ll see Chekov in the timeline at all. He has to come aboard prior to the discovery of The Botany Bay, though. The fact that Chekov was aboard the Enterprise during the events of “Space Seed” has been canon since 1982.
As for something being labeled “heresy” because it was never mentioned previously, anyone who reacted that way needs a new definition of ‘canon’.
Just because something isn’t depicted or talked about on screen, certainly doesn’t preclude it from happening. It is no different from Kirk/Spock/McCoy attending the Academy together. We do not have to have seen them at a class reunion together in an episode to accept it as true.
It is never even so much as implied that any of the crew ever used a restroom facility….I just assumed they did. No different. There is much of our beloved characters backstories unexplored, and therefore open to some canonical interpretation and original storytelling.
220. Comic Book Guy –
“#210 – Agree completely. In “The Menagerie”, Kirk knew Pike well enough to call him Chris, so it would seem to have been more than a brief meeting.”
Well, to play devil’s advocate, Pike could hardly object to Kirk calling him “Chris” instead of “sir” since he could barely communicate “yes” and “no”.
I’m just saying. Really I’m open to whatever they show us as long as it surprises, respects canon (within reason), is well-acted and a good story.
215. CanonWars –
“Canon choked the life out of Trek and its time to restart this puppy.
I feel that people who are Canon dogmatics use it to turn a fake world into a real one. Its not real, its fiction and authors are entitled to reinterpret the story for successive generations. What we need is a good story. At least Orci and Abrams are throwing a bone to the “canonites” by allowing the their Spock to be in the movie.”
There is something to be said for canon. I’ve personally invested 30 years of my life to learning canon and being entertained by Trek in general. It *does* bother me when things are or have been blatantly contradicted by later episodes — mostly, though, these instances have been due to writers’ ignorance of canonical ‘facts’ and not an attempt to undo what’s been previously established. I understand that this sort of thing happens but I don’t dismiss it without acknowledging the error. It’s usually a result of laziness (let’s face it — the writers of TNG, VOY, DS9 and ENT all had access to the Okuda’s Star Trek Encyclopedia).
The initial fear many fans had when JJ took the Trek reigns was that he and his team may not have known the 40 years or so of Trek lore or that they didn’t care about what came before them. We’ve since (I believe) read enough to know they *do* know and respect canon, they don’t want to piss off those of us who’ve devoted so many years to learning the rules and history of our particular universe.
They could’ve ignored our canon and done a Batman Begins or Smallville-type reboot. Those things can be successful but they can also isolate long-time established fans (I grew up loving DC Comics, for example, but I loathe both Batman Begins and Smallville as inferior bastard-children of their respective source material). I would no doubt check out the new movie if it was a true deconstructivist reboot but I would be automatically distrustful of JJ and company and likely bitterly disappointed with the final product.
I think the writers are playing with us on this canon thing simply because it is the central threat to the movie and will shock us old-timers to our core from that opening scene. I’m gathering that something that obviously violates canon happens at the film’s opening thanks to Nero. From that point on the film’s jeaopardy hangs on whether or not our beloved canon-history will survive the movie!
225. Canonfornication –
“I bet Harrison Ford plays Capt April”
I won’t take that bet. I would welcome a Harrison Ford cameo of some sort but I don’t really feel that kind of stunt-casting is neccessary — it’s often a distraction that takes the viewer out of the story. Plus, “Captain April”’s very existence (within Trek canon) is conjectural at best.
221. Bob –
“Okay, I know going in to this that I’m probably going to get blasted, but here goes… there’s one major thing that will always trump canon and that is REALITY. ”
I disagree. Whoever said the Trek universe was the same universe we live in? The Eugenics Wars didn’t happen here in the 90s but we know (and it was even made canonical in “Parallels” and the Mirror Universe eps!) that an infinite number of parallel universes exist and that is probably where the Star Trek universe is located — “Someplace…parallel!” as Kirk said.
227. rehabilitated hitch1969© –
“maybe kirk is not given assignment… because he does not exist?
yet is there?”
That’s an intriguing possibility.
228- I second that emotion!
It’s simple: Nero destroys the pre-TOS USS Kelvin, a significant event which then destroys TOS canon.
That ends the canon debate/problems right there. It’s all Canon-fodder after that.
Now if JJ had just had Nero go a little further back (i.e. 1966) so he could blow up all that screwed up canon regarding the Eugenics Wars in the 1990s and get the trek universe more in line with real history, then JJ would really be a genius!
232. Anthony –
“I suspect George Kirk will be killed on the Kelvin — ”
Although this is a possibility it doesn’t really make any sense as a dirrect threat from the future. Why would Romulans go back in time to make sure…Kirk has a lousy childhood? The simpler route is the one Arne Darvin took in “Trials and Tribble-ations” — go back in time and just kill Kirk!
I am intrigued by the countertheory that Nero goes back in time and targets Spock rather than Kirk. Maybe the truth is somewhere in between — or maybe we’re all way off!
233. Jeffries Tuber –
“>Nero attacks the Kelvin, probably killing George Kirk, then proceeds to the Farragut when it turns out that Jim has already been conceived.
>Nero attacks the Farragut, Kirk escapes in a pod and is picked up by the Enterprise.”
Although I find the notion of George Kirk being killed during the Kelvin attack a tantalizing possibility I would assume it taking place before Jim Kirk’s conception. Going after the Farragut (The Farragut having never once been mentioned by JJ and company as having any bearing on the film) would then be a moot point since he doesn’t exist. Somehow JTK *does* appear (per Anthony in #232) as some sort of anomoly (thus the generic black shirt and no uniform?). The biggest hole in your theory is the photo of JTK leaving the escape pod: the escape pod is clearly labeled “NCC-1701″ and that ain’t the Farragut’s id number.
Killing George Kirk doesn’t make sense. Nero should go back and get an earlier relative who’s not stationed on a Federation Starship. Easier to get someone at home on the can than attack the Kelvin.
And Nero should upgrade his Blackberry if he misses Kirk’s conception date.
I think in the opening scene, Nero will kill James T. Kirk directly (or Spock?), and the remainder of the film will detail Spock’s attempt to fix things.. Pike perhaps never gets promoted and succeeded by JTK. Heresy means heresy, and George Kirk doesn’t quite make the cut.
Ok… let make this official.
I NO LONGER CARE ABOUT CANON, repeat;
I NO LONGER CARE ABOUT CANON, repeat;
I NO LONGER CARE ABOUT CANON, repeat;
I NO LONGER CARE ABOUT CANON, say this four times and I promise you’ll enjoy the new movie.
I really don’t care about canon. I just want a good story, a good script, good acting and some good action… then I’ll be happy. So far, i like what I see from the pics.. ALL the pics.. including the bridge.
1) Too many people are assuming that Nero’s intent is to kill JTK. Just what does this accomplish for Romulans, which have been described as ‘pirates’? We’re missing something, obviously- and my guess is that Nero’s intent is something quite different, and just happens to intersect JTK’s life. A more important point that’s being ignored may be: How and why does the older Spock (Nimoy’s Timeline) get involved?
2) We have been told that something happens in the early part of the movie that will have fans thinking heresy. Could this involve the non-canonical issues that are being argued over?
3) Canon’s a funny thing. The example has been used above that most fans accept the animated episode ‘Yesteryear’ as canon, and yet it has several issues with things established in TOS. (At the beginning Kirk says he and Spock have been in Orion’s past, yet the Guardian implied it could only show the history of those watching. Also, listen to Kirk’s final line in ‘City’: “Let’s get the Hell out of here.” The way he says it, there’s NO way he’s EVER coming back there.)
4) Too much is being made of Mendez’s exact phrasing. It’s a relative statement and too dependant on how old his character is. we’re not sure who he is referring to or at point of Pike’s carreer is is atlking about. Also, remember that at some point, Mendez is replaced by a Talosian illusion.
What’s canon?
#239—I have always had a difficult time believing that there would be any Romulans from the 24th Century who would want to eliminate Kirk to begin with. If they had any reason to assasinate someone from the TOS-era, it would seem more likely to be Spock.
Unfortunately, it seems that all signs point to Kirk being a target, however illogically. Perhaps it will make more sense to me within the context of the film.
“…the Guardian implied it could only show the history of those watching. Also, listen to Kirk’s final line in ‘City’: “Let’s get the Hell out of here.” The way he says it, there’s NO way he’s EVER coming back there.)”
That’s a whole lot of assumption. If anything, it adds to the notion that “Yesteryear” is near the end of the 5 year mission, allowing for considerable time to pass between COTEOF and their return to The Guardian.
And I do not remember getting that “implication” from The Guardian.
Frankly, it (”Yesteryear”)has been referenced far too many times (TNG, DS9, ENT, TMP:DE) in subsequent live action Trek to ‘not’ consider it canon, IMO.
And if contradiction is grounds for labeling an episode ‘not canon’, I guess you can strike alot of it….TWOK, TSFS, and half of the early first season of TOS.
Where are people getting the Idea of 7 years that Spock Served Pike. THat was never said. If you are referring to the line that Kirk said about how long Spock served under him, he didn’t say “Seven,” He said, “Several.” “Spock Served with him for several years.” and Spock replies, “11 years, 7 months, and 5 days.” Or something like that.
This is less of a canon issue than a bunch of hyped fans speculating on major plot points.
“Let’s get the hell of here” in “City” may have simply meant, “let’s go hit that Starbucks on the corner. I hate Dunkin’ Donuts.”
Sorry, but I still don’t get it.
Can someone PLEASE just explain in very simple terms what this article is about?
I’ve read it three times now, and many of the posts here, and none of it makes any sense. I just don’t get it.
To me, the article reads like: “This new film will see Pike meeting Kirk — HOWEVER — TOS established that they do meet, so canon is clearly out the window”.
Huh? It makes no sense.
PLEASE! ANYONE?
#247…
The article is a non issue. It states that they meet and they did indeed meet in TOS. It’s just speculating and meant to draw people in to discuss the possibilities of where canon would be broken, if in fact it was broken. It isn’t.
Jamie:
The article touches upon the potential re-interpretation of events in Trek lore during a time when a change of captains/actors had to be re-imagined as something canonical. “The Menagerie” is a one of the best examples of Star Trek, and ties “The Cage” into the Kirk era with aplomb and sensitivity, and develops the top three characters quite significantly.
In essence, in STXI, Greenwood worked with “all the kids,” including Pine, whereas in current Trek lore, Kirk met Pike perhaps only once, and owing to his ship’s compliment in the Cage, Pike should only be aware of Spock.
Yes, it’s much ado about nothing, but it fills in some early gaps.
My own thoughts are these:
I agree with those who point out that “The Menagerie” itself is a bit loose on some canonical datapoints, especially with regard to the story logic of the Trekverse. As has been previously noted, if Pike is Kirk’s age, he would have been given command of the Enterprise in his early 20s, so that couldn’t possibly work. Also, other licensed projects subsequent to TOS have speculated that Kirk had encountered Pike prior to the point at which he succeeds Pike as Enterprise CO. Given that, I’d be cool with accepting a ruling from “the Supreme Court” that that bit of canonical data could be bent a little. ;)
Also, another possibility is that the scenes with Pike and all the TOS regular characters might be in one of the alternate universes we’ve been told are seen transiently in the film.
As for other comments:
#11 – “the entertainment weekly article called captain pike “doomed” which i thought was interesting that no one picked up on. of course that chair thing is doomed but you wouldnt think it happens in the timeline of this movie.”
I interpreted that to mean that the writer of the article was aware of Pike’s fate in “The Menagerie”, and was making a general reference to it. I didn’t take that to be a plot-slip about the film itself.
#16 – “As I’ve predicted many times on these boards, The bridge shot from the new movie is Pike’s Enterprise.
Grey turbolift doors, people! It was right there in front of you.”
That thought occurred to me, too, though if that’s correct, it can’t be *too* much before the events of TOS, anyway, or Chekov would be too young to be involved. Then again, given Mr. Greenwood’s age, it’s very likely that the events shown in the film will be much closer to the end of Pike’s command of the Enterprise than to the events of “The Cage”. That, BTW, gave the production crew an “out” in that they didn’t have to use any of the other characters from “The Cage” except Spock, if they didn’t want to.
#110 – “The discrepency in the eleven years vs. thirteen years on Spock’s time on the Enterprise could be explained by Spock’s assignment to another posting for two years prior to Kirk’s command.”
It’s much simpler than that. Remember that the framing story in “The Menagerie” is taking place between 18 months and 2 years into Kirk’s 5-year mission, which already covers most of the time difference.
#112 – “I also liked the ENT episodes but again, nothing there to validate FASA as being even part-way canonical.”
I think the one idea that ended up being common to both the FASA and ENT approaches was the concept of the Klingons playing with Human DNA to engineer into some individual Klingons. The rationale and details, though, were quite different.
#115- “What would you change if you had this brief time (and alot of cash) to retell the whole ST universe?”
Change? Nothing. If my intent was to change things, I wouldn’t be doling Star Trek. Period.
#211 – “I hate to think that the events of “The Cage” (aka “The Menagerie”) will change, or never occur if Pike’s character is prevented from that destiny. But as we’re seeing, the timeline changes are KEY to this film.
I’m looking forward to Spock saying ‘That’s not how it occured in my timeline…’ ”
That’s all fine, as long as (and *only* as long as), it’s all rectified by the end of the film.
#221 – “Okay, I know going in to this that I’m probably going to get blasted, but here goes… there’s one major thing that will always trump canon and that is REALITY.”
Not really, because Star Trek’s world is not reality, and never will be. It is a fictional world, and therefore fictional consistency trumps concerns about trying to make Trek’s world match with our own.
#224 – “4. All of the above suggests that JJ’s Kirk has to take control of Enterprise from Pike under some kind of extreme extenuating circumstances, especially given his age and cadet status. Again, this is not the TOS history described in the Menagerie.”
Leaving aside the fact that it’s not clear when the bridge shots we’ve seen so far take place, your supposition, while potentially valid, and while not described in TOS, also doesn’t contradict TOS in any significant way.
#231 – “At some point, adherence to the “facts of the universe” took precedence over telling stories.”
I’d be curious as to when you think such a point was reached, because I never saw it. To me it seems obvious that both must go hand-in-hand, in any fictional world of any value.
#234 – “As for something being labeled “heresy” because it was never mentioned previously, anyone who reacted that way needs a new definition of ‘canon’.
Just because something isn’t depicted or talked about on screen, certainly doesn’t preclude it from happening. It is no different from Kirk/Spock/McCoy attending the Academy together. We do not have to have seen them at a class reunion together in an episode to accept it as true.”
Well put!
#236 – “It’s simple: Nero destroys the pre-TOS USS Kelvin, a significant event which then destroys TOS canon.
That ends the canon debate/problems right there.”
Really, it doesn’t, unless of course all is put right (or pretty close to right) by the end of the film. They don’t do that, it’s the knife-in-the-back syndrome I’ve spoken of previously.
#241 – “I NO LONGER CARE ABOUT CANON, say this four times and I promise you’ll enjoy the new movie.”
Even if I said that, and I won’t because it’s not true, my mantra is I CARE VERY, VERY MUCH ABOUT CONTINUITY AND CONSISTENCY. And for me to respect this film, both of those things relative to the Trekverse must be respected by the film’s end. ‘Nuff said.
I can make excuses for canon inconsistencies if this is in fact an alternate time line. Us Trekkers are a creative bunch. We are all Star Trek Apologists in one way or another. At least the hard core bunch! I think allot of thought went into this picture. I don’t think they CAN let us down.
An alternate time line would allow us to enjoy TOS and subsequent new Star Trek ideas.
On a personal note…I like BEEF. Nothing better than a club steak on the grill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One possibility no one seems to be considering is that the shots we see of Kirk’s crew may come from the END of the movie- after all is set right and the future crew is assembled, there may be a ‘thataway’ sign-off.
#250—I respect your position, and the passion you always put behind it.
With that said, I have to offer a somewhat different perspective.
If my preference meant anything at all, Nimoy’s Spock would end up restoring the timeline to the point that only asthetic differences would remain of Nero’s timeline incursion.
However, I recognize that as something which might be difficult, given the type of story for which we seem to be in store.
IMO, if the story results in certain aspects of previously established canon (for example, Kirk’s time as a young officer aboard the Republic or the Farragut) being altered, what results from STXI ‘becomes’ canon, and every bit as legitimately as”Court-Martial” or “Obsession” was before. The possibility of the past being altered has always been there in the ST Universe (”Tommorow Is Yesterday”, “Assignment: Earth”, “COTEOF”, among numerous other examples).
It may be safe to say that our heroes have always managed to thwart that possibility, or in some cases, the so-called “changes” were actually key elements in the way the timeline was already supposed to turn out. However, what is wrong with viewing the end result (hypothetically speaking of a permanently altered timeline) of STXI as just another example of evolutionary canon?
Even if it is not my preference, I fail to see what would make an altered timeline becoming part of canon somehow less legitimate. I don’t find it lazy, but rather simply something different, yet still telling future stories with basically the same characters I fell in love with as a child (acknowledging of course that different experiences in their pasts are likely to mold them in different ways to some extent).
I have to say, the Bermanverse really drove me away from Trek many years ago. The only thing which has me excited about this film (I haven’t paid a dime to see a ST movie in about 17 years) is the return of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and the NCC-1701 (even if its look is updated). I would still prefer the Big Three in an alternate timeline over some other Star Trek spinoff…If what results in an altered timeline (if that is indeed the case in the end) is an entertaining story…I’ll be happy.
I don’t buy movie tickets just to make sure things are not screwed up. I buy them to be entertained. I love canon discussions. It has always been “just for fun” to me. But STXI, IMO, has every right to ‘become’ canon as anything before it.
JJ ABRAMS CONFIRMS: NEELIX IN NEW “STAR TREK” FILM
JJ Abrams today confirmed that as a “hats off” to Star Trek fans, the beloved character “Neelix” will make an appearance in his new Star Trek film, due for release next May. Ethan Philips will reprise his beloved role as the goofy but lovable morale officer from the Delta Quadrant ship “Voyager.”
Bob Orci: “There’s a twist where we can put Neelix on the Kelvin, the Intrepid and the Enterprise, and in most scenes on Earth and Vulcan, as well as on Nero’s and Spock’s timeships. And at the Academy as a goofy groundskeeper. The film is all about changing what you know. Oh, and on Romulus.”
Online fan reaction has been mixed. “Trekkers” are a fussy bunch, and some have been quite vocal in their reactions.
Hundreds were found dousing themselves in gasoline at Vasquez Rocks yesterday, but one named “Closettrekker” was able to point out that Neelix could have indeed been “that” plant in Mendez’s office in “The Cage,” or deftly hidden in Spock’s closet during something called the “Kahswan Ordeal.”
In any case,
Bob Orci: “…And Ceti Alpha V”
In any case, the film promises to blow the genre wide open, and milliions are looking forward to seeing their heroes reborn in this revitalization of a great American franchise.
While you’re at it, why not the ‘long-awaited’ Star Trek-Star Wars tie-in with an appearance by Jar-Jar Binks?
There REALLY will be self-immolations with THAT one, even if the price of gasoline doubles again by May!
#254—”…but one named “Closettrekker” was able to point out that Neelix could have indeed been “that” plant in Mendez’s office in “The Cage,” or deftly hidden in Spock’s closet during something called the “Kahswan Ordeal.”
LMAO!!! AJ, I almost spit Coca-Cola all over my wife’s computer! For a second, I thought there was a glitch and I accidentally stumbled into 69 Forward!!!
Closet:
I’m glad you enjoyed it. I love writing these things. And it’s always PG on the general threads.
I was going to send a message out, as I mention some real people in the post. More than usual this time.
And because this site is available to all, Anthony may have issues with the parodies’ mention of their names. I’ll ask.
I kinda knew you’d appreciate the reference to super-TOS/TAS-minutia!
In the 23rd century the women are wearing miniskirts? Doesn’t this seem odd to anyone? Then again, maybe men are wearing them, too (which would be a nice nod to retiring the tired old stereotypic sex roles of this era).
#253 – “#250—I respect your position, and the passion you always put behind it.”
Thanks!
“With that said, I have to offer a somewhat different perspective.
If my preference meant anything at all, Nimoy’s Spock would end up restoring the timeline to the point that only asthetic differences would remain of Nero’s timeline incursion.”
I could accept that, as long as it was made clear that that was the *only* change. To be honest, though, I’d rather just go with the idea that production design/aesthetics is simply a factor of visual storytelling, and recognize that in that sense, there will always be some change, by virtue of the idea that every storyteller brings his/her own ideas to the telling of a story, even if the “facts” of that story remain the same.
(snip)
“IMO, if the story results in certain aspects of previously established canon (for example, Kirk’s time as a young officer aboard the Republic or the Farragut) being altered, what results from STXI ‘becomes’ canon, and every bit as legitimately as”Court-Martial” or “Obsession” was before. The possibility of the past being altered has always been there in the ST Universe (”Tommorow Is Yesterday”, “Assignment: Earth”, “COTEOF”, among numerous other examples).”
Sure. If there’s a big enough “disconnect” that it can’t simply be explained away or otherwise massaged, some manner of addressing it would have to exist. I don’t yet think that’s happened with this film, but with so much information still unknown, I couldn’t discount the possibility that it may have and we don’t yet know.
“It may be safe to say that our heroes have always managed to thwart that possibility, or in some cases, the so-called “changes” were actually key elements in the way the timeline was already supposed to turn out.”
Right. e.g., “Assignment: Earth”. Or with the changes being so minor as to not constitute a significant impact, a la “Yesteryear”.
“However, what is wrong with viewing the end result (hypothetically speaking of a permanently altered timeline) of STXI as just another example of evolutionary canon?”
Well, the thing of it is, and one of the reasons I’m still a bit nervous and have pressed Bob for more specificity, is that alternate timelines are absolutely canon in Trek. That does not mean I can accept the idea of just changing the continuity so much that over 40 years of development are simply set aside. I cannot. I realize that many people don’t see it the way I do, and that’s their right, but for me, baseline continuity in a fictional world is an axiomatic requirement. Throw that out, and one loses both my respect and my business. I long ago gave up on comic books because they couldn’t/wouldn’t maintain baseline continuity. I all-but-completely reject Mooreverse BSG because it totally trashed continuity with the “Galactica” that had existed for 20+ years. If it happened to Trek, I have every expectation that Paramount would push adherence to a new Abramsverse above consistency with the whole rest of Trek, and they would try to force that in the licensing, the tie-in storytelling, etc. I have spent far, far too long playing in the Trekverse–which has, through multiple TV series and ten movies, been able to maintain basic continuity–to accept that sort of reboot. It goes against everything I believe in when it comes to coming in and playing in a pre-established fictional world.
I’m not opposed to some level of change, but permanent and ongoing baseline continuity is not on the table as among the things I consider mutable at the end of the day. For me, that’s axiomatic.
“Even if it is not my preference, I fail to see what would make an altered timeline becoming part of canon somehow less legitimate. I don’t find it lazy, but rather simply something different, yet still telling future stories with basically the same characters I fell in love with as a child (acknowledging of course that different experiences in their pasts are likely to mold them in different ways to some extent).”
For me, continuity is just that important. Yeah, in something like TV, there will be imperfections. that’s understandable. And there will be, umm…evolutions in perspective in a property that has endured for decades. That’s certainly happened in Trek. There have been some minor retcons here and there, tweaks in the overall story, if you will. But to simply say, “Nope, what has already been established no longer matters”? That is utterly anathema to me, and equally unacceptable.
But I freely admit, as I said to Bob O. in another thread, for me, when I embrace a fictional property, I’m not embracing 5 or 10 characters in isolation. I become invested in the fictional world. All of it. A whole lot of my Trek fandom is expressed in exploring the fictional world of Trek…its ships, its science and technology, the cosmography of known space in that world, the structure and operation of StarFleet and the government of the Federation, etc. etc. I’ve compiled ship books. I’ve been maintaining and updating a Trek timeline for the last 25 years or so. And so on. It’s not just about Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, or even them plus a few other sets of characters. It is an entire fictional world into which I can immerse myself. And I do that with any fictional world in which I play for long enough.
Personally, I think maintaining basic continuity is an extraordinarily easy thing, if even a modicum of effort is put toward doing so, and thus I have very little respect for those who consciously choose to abandon it. That’s not to say that there are some things that can creep into a big continuity that I could see as being worthy of tweaking. In a medium like TV and movies, there are always a few throwaway lines that just don’t make much sense in hindsight. In TOS, for example, very early on they hadn’t decided on the names for a lot of things, so being consistent with all the different terms they invented really isn’t necessary (though the ENT Art Department gets extra kudos from me for finding a way to combine the Earth StarFleet and UESPA!). Ditto oddities like “Faster than light, no left or right”, which showed up in a VOY episode, and makes absolutely no sense, or the whole warp 5 speed limit from TNG’s “Force of Nature”, which was a neat allegory episode but picked the wrong tech to use in context. (If warp drive in general was *that* destructive, Sector 001 would have been utterly destroyed by then. ;) ) Thus, I can understand and empathize with the ST ‘09 “Supreme Court” in having to make some choices in how to interpret very early TOS-related continuity, and that’s fine with me.
What would *not* be fine is just saying, “Forget it” to the whole Trekverse through the medium of alternate timelines or whatever. That’s only slightly less obnoxious to me than simply trashing all the continuity and trying to convince the audience it had never been like that at all, a la Ron Moore.
“I have to say, the Bermanverse really drove me away from Trek many years ago.”
I got steadily less interested in latter-era Trek over the years, though I have to admit that ENT–as a prequel–hugely reenergized my Trek enthusiasm. (I spent 2001-2005 on a major Trek high. ;) ) And, to be fair, the late 24th Century in the books is a vastly more interesting time than it managed to be on film.
“The only thing which has me excited about this film (I haven’t paid a dime to see a ST movie in about 17 years) is the return of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and the NCC-1701 (even if its look is updated).”
I’m excited about that, too…as long as it’s the *same* Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, and NCC-1701, in the same world as TOS and the first six movies (with the recognition that an updated visual presentation doesn’t automatically mean a different world for me; I am willing to accept a certain level of change in “visual continuity”, as long as “storytelling continuity” is preserved). If it’s not the same world, my excitement wanes.
“I would still prefer the Big Three in an alternate timeline over some other Star Trek spinoff…”
Not me, not at all. If I’d had my druthers, the Kerner/Jendresen project would have moved forward. I love new spinoffs and new characters. (It goes back to that whole idea of growing the fictional world, not replacing it…or trying, anyway. ;) ) Both ST: Vanguard and ST: Titan are among my favorite Trek series right now, outshining the vast majority of what’s on film. I like the idea of doing a Kirk and Co. film trilogy, but if they can’t maintain basic storytelling continuity with TOS for 6 hours of film over the next 6-8 years, that says to me that there’s something really wrong.
“I don’t buy movie tickets just to make sure things are not screwed up. I buy them to be entertained.”
Oh, I agree. But for me, basic continuity in an established fictional world is part of the process. I am not entertained by taking established fictional worlds and throwing them out, only to create something new with the same name. That’s not my idea of fun. [shrug]
“I love canon discussions. It has always been “just for fun” to me. But STXI, IMO, has every right to ‘become’ canon as anything before it.”
Sure. But it needs to do so the right way, by introducing new elements to the Trekverse and expanding it, not by replacing what’s come before. And maybe the new elements are not what we expect. ENT, for example, brought in a number of things that fans didn’t expect to the 22nd Century in the Trekverse, but even I–who had lots of preconceived notions about that period–had to admit that *some* of the ideas were more dramatically interesting than the ones I had in my head. I would welcome ST ‘09 doing the same sort of thing. But I would not welcome an outcome of the film being that the last 40 years of building the Trekverse are rendered moot going forward. That is not my idea of a good time.
I agree with you Alex
I dont mind the time travel story but I find the idea to do it to explain why things look different is a little convuluted and too frustrationg to use just to retcon 40 years of Trek.
I like you have invested a lot into the Trekverse and hate to see it jettisoned for the sake of this one movie.
I am excited about some of the stuff this film will do but I am scared it will be changing the things I love.
I guess my real concern is the timeline being retconned so JJ can turn Star Trek into a frorm that is too unrecognisable.
Seriously as canon slips go, i can deal with it.
At least there are gooseneck thingies at Uhura’s station. Critically important.
Do you think they have printers?
If not, I won’t see the film.
Christina Aguilara for Number One. ‘ nuf said. :-)
As far as Chekov’s age – when Kirk asks him how old he is on WHO MOURNS FOR ADONIS, and he replys, ” 22, sir”. I think he meant it as a JOKE, and Kirks response was the same – they were JOKING with each other! At the time WMFA was filmed, Koenig was about 30 himself, so get real people.
Because they’ve kept it hidden for so long, I’ve had a feeling that the overall look would prove to be the most controversial — and potentially least liked by fans — part of this movie. It’s no accident that we’ve heard next to nothing from the production designers. The only thing I recall is an interview with a woman who made it sound as she chafed at the notion that the exterior shape of the Enterprise had to stay the same. (I can’t wait for the blowup here when we finally see the full Enterprise exterior.)
My impression since then, confirmed by the pics we’ve seen, has been that that part of the production did not share the same fealty to Trek traditions as someone like Orci. I’d like to know how much they weighed concepts like functionality vs. style. The original show did a great job for the time of balancing the two, which helped make it feel real and believable. From what I’ve seen so far, the new movie’s look opts for style over substance in a way that does not respect the work of Matt Jefferies. I’m still hoping the story and “feel” will make up for this.
Only those over 40 will want 40 years of storyline to be maintained. More of the population is under 40 than over 40. On top of that, most people over 40 haven’t been watching Trek for 40 years and would prefer a new story line instead of trying to figure out what been occuring for the last few centuries.
The number of people who will be interested in maintaining a 40 year old story are too small as evidenced in the slow death that Trek has been experiencing for the last 25 years. If I were one of them, I’d be glad they even bothered with a reboot instead of just trashing the entire franchise. You will always have the old Trek, it won’t be censored or confiscated from your DVD collection by the KGB. Instead you’ll get a fresh page upon which great stories can be written in addition to the old ones.
266:
Abrams said there is nothing on the new Bridge which does not have a real function on the ship. Tough to tell as we’ve seen barely anything.
However, if you recall the old pics of the shuttle at the fuel station, they seemed quite more utilitarian and simple than the photo of the Bridge we got last week.
267:
Trek as a business had its heyday within that 25-year span, including TVH and TNG.
Star Wars is doing quite well with youngsters, including my kids, 6 and 8, and they are very interested in the whole series, and its canon, begun in 1977.
I think up and coming younger fans enjoy a rich backstory. I also think the criticism of modern Trek as too mired in canon (Ronald Moore) smacks of a lack of creativity. He then went on to do good work with a totally blank slate in BSG.
If you a write a historical novel, you must actually place the events in real historical context. The “canon” of our reality is far more complex than Trek lore.
#269—”If you a write a historical novel, you must actually place the events in real historical context. The “canon” of our reality is far more complex than Trek lore.”
While that is certainly true, even “history” has always been colored by interpretation and perspective…As a history major and an amateur historian of sorts, I often find that it is usually difficult to get historians to agree on what exactly is “real historical context”.
:)
267. ByGeorge -
Dude! Why you be dissin’ us 40-year-olds?! Respect your elders, ya whippersnapper!
269. AJ –
Good rebuttal. I was going to say that but got addle-brained then scared of the dark then I peed myself. I remember liking canon ‘way back in the dim dark days of long ago — at least when I can remember anything. The caregivers here at the home say that familiar things help keep us residents feeling comfortable and safe. And that’s why I like lemons. Hm? What were we talking about?
#265 – I don’t think it was a joke at all. Chekov’s relative youth and inexperience were a running character arc, especially through the early second season of TOS. He was brought onto the show to establish a younger character and reach certain demographics, and he tended to do so.
The youth aspect of the character continued all the way through to his final appearance in Paramount Trek, in “Generations”. (”I vas never that young.” “No, you were younger.”)
272. Alex Rosenzweig – October 25, 2008
“The youth aspect of the character continued all the way through to his final appearance in Paramount Trek, in “Generations”. (”I vas never that young.” “No, you were younger.”)”
That exchange was one of the few modified to fit the late casting of Chekov and Scotty as Kirk’s companions at the Ent-B’s christening. All the other dialogue is virtually interchangeable with McCoy and Spock (notice how Chekov instantly sets up triage and recruits a couple nurses, Scotty spouts technobabble and comes up with the theory to save them). Even Scotty’s dry, “Is there something wrong with your chair?” line could’ve been delivered by Spock.
Totally off topic but interesting nonetheless.
#267 – “On top of that, most people over 40 haven’t been watching Trek for 40 years and would prefer a new story line instead of trying to figure out what been occuring for the last few centuries.”
The flaw in this logic, as always, is the assumption that any new project would require the audience to know all that ahead of time. And that’s simply not true. Assuming for the moment that Bob, Alex, JJ, etc. are not lying to us, and that the new film is intended to be part of the rest of the Trekverse, what they did is the logical thing. By telling the as-yet-untold (on film, anyway) origin story, they give new folks the opportunity to jump aboard without requiring any prior knowledge of Trek. (By contrast, jumping into something like a DS9 follow-on, with that series’s tight continuity, would be much tougher for an audience, since so much was going on. But by further contrast, the *best* option would have been a whole new situation and character-set, so make of it what you will.)
“The number of people who will be interested in maintaining a 40 year old story are too small as evidenced in the slow death that Trek has been experiencing for the last 25 years.”
Ahh, again, I think you’re pointing at the wrong cause for the effect you’re describing. ;) Continuity has nothing to do with it. I think that Trek simply experienced what any production that lasts for 25 seasons in 18 years does. The mass audience got oversaturated. Add to that the both VOY and ENT were broadly perceived as weaker shows, and except for First Contact, all the TNG films were also viewed as substandard, and there you have it.
“If I were one of them, I’d be glad they even bothered with a reboot instead of just trashing the entire franchise.”
There is an argument to be made that rebooting *is* trashing the franchise. Something that exists as only a name slapped onto something else is not really enduring. Thanks, but I’d really rather not have that happen to Trek. I don’t think it makes good business sense, either. One of the reasons to do an “origin story” for TOS would be to guide potential new fans into watching the show afterward. Explicitly saying that none of it bears any relationship to the film that brought them in is a good way of getting them to say, “Well, in that case, why should I bother spending the time?” Ergo, my suspicion remains that there’d be just enough change–mostly visual–in the film that will cause some folks to argue that it’s a different world, but not enough to formalize such a thing, and those who prefer it to be part of the existing Trekverse will be able to see it as such. At least, that’s what I’m gleaning from what the folks involved with the film have been saying. I could be wrong, of course, but that’s the subtext I’m getting.
#273 – You’re exactly right, and it’s interesting to go through and pick out what lines might have gone to the other TOS characters had they actually been there as originally envisioned.
But as you say, that line was modified for Chekov, and it was so specifically because his relative youth was a factor.
270:
Closettrekker:
You’re right, and Star Trek has done that, too.
But history isn’t annoyingly over-busy. There are countless tent-peg events which cannot be re-interpreted unless you’re doing a “What If…” scenario, or you’re running a despotic closed state, and the lie is needed to deceive people.There was a depression in 1929, and Pearl Harbor was attacked in December 1941. Interpret away, but get the facts straight.
I take the dialogue in “WMFA”, which establishes Chekov’s age in that second season episode as being 22, as ‘canon’.
I also accept the establishment in TWOK that Chekov was aboard the Enterprise in the first season episode, “Space Seed” as being ‘canon’. Although not firmly established, popular opinion would point to there being, at most, a year between those two episodes (it is not even set in stone that the chronology of episode airing dates is the same as the chronolgy of the adventures depicted, as evidenced by the airing of “The Man Trap” prior to “WNMHGB”, despite the reasoning behind it) .
We know that the 5 year mission ended in 2270 (VOY: “Q2″).
That leaves open the possibility that the 5 year mission began in 2266, not necessarily 2265 (as speculated without fact as evidence). If Chekov joins the crew in 2266, he is likely 21 years old (again, ‘if’ there is indeed a full year between the beginning of the 5 year mission and “WMFA”, which has never been canonically established). If the SFA curriculum is 4 years long, this simply means that Chekov was admitted into the Academy at age 17…certainly not unreasonable.
I have never understood why some fans insist that he could not have been aboard from the very beginning of the infamous 5 year mission under the command of JTK. There is simply nothing to preclude that from being the case.
Fans should be careful in labeling certain perceived truths as “canon”, when they are often— in fact, merely “fanon” (elements that fans have ‘assumed’ and mischaracterized as ‘canon’).
As Alex has already alluded to, contradictions to some of the fans’ preconceived notions about unexplored areas of history within the ST universe do not equate to “canon violations”.
#276—You’re absolutely right. Where history most often becomes cloudy is in the ‘analysis’ of events, not necessarily the ‘recording’ of events (although that, too, can be inaccurate and/or open to interpretation, especially when dealing with “ancient” history).
As it relates to Star Trek canon, we see some of the same thing.
To use your “Pearl Harbor” example, Americans were told that the Japanese “sudden and deliberate attack” was unprovoked and unjustified. However, I could dispute that ‘analysis’ very easily with facts and a succession of factual events (without even delving into theories of clandestine setups, etc.).
Here we are, talking about the minutia of 40 year old dialogue, and attempting to derive specific meaning behind such vague use of language by a fictional character as, “We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain”. Think of the delivery of that line by The Shat as an event. It happened, without question, yet there are multiple interpretations which could be made of it.
UGO interprets it as meaning they only met one time, but that isn’t exactly what he said. Is it?
278:
My wife and I met in Central Park when a friend introduced her.
We obviously met several times afterwards.
Or that was the most recent meeting. Kirk calls him “Chris,” which means they have at least had a professional relationship in the past. Though, having not been aware of Pike’s condition in “Menagerie” I would say they were not close friends.
This whole topic is making something out of nothing. I can’t believe this is even being discussed as a possible canon violation. Loosen up, people.
#279—My interpretation as well…
WTF…come on, there cannot be ANY canon violation in this movie since it does for sure take place in an alternate reality! They are going to change history in the opening sequence (presumably the attack on the USS Kelvin). New timeline, different details, same overall setting…
Now, there IS A REASON the writers decided to call the villain Nero! You remember the historical Nero, who is famous for having burned down Rome. He did that for a very specific purpose, not because he was crazy. He wanted to make space for new and improved stone architecture and didn’t have the guts to force all Romans to get rid of their old houses. So he staged a fire that eventually created enough space to set up his vision of Rome, an up-to-date version of Rome…”not your fathers’ Rome”…
Sounds familiar? Now, Abrams, Orci and Kurzman are going to do exactly the same with the old timeline. Nero is going to “scorch time” in order to make space for a new and improved version of Star Trek, a version that is still Trek but “not your father’s Star Trek”…
Abrams Star Trek is not Roddenberry’s Star Trek and not even Berman’s Trek as Nero’s Rome wasn’t Augustus’ or Tiberius Rome. But it will be Trek at its heart as was Rome after Nero…
Believe it or not but that’s the way things are going to happen…
#282—”Now, there IS A REASON the writers decided to call the villain Nero! You remember the historical Nero, who is famous for having burned down Rome.”
…among other things.
Nero is ‘also’ famous for murdering one of his parents.
“Believe it or not but that’s the way things are going to happen…”
A valid theory, and quite possible, but still only a theory…
That leaves us with James TIBERIUS Kirk fighting his descendet-in-name NERO for having killed his father George…changing the design of the Enterprise and Kirk’s Starfleet career for good…
282:
That would be somewhat derivative of VOY “Year of Hell.”
“Nero is ‘also’ famous for murdering one of his parents.”
Well, if Nero truly is Spock’s and Sela’s son…hm, okay, he isn’t necessarily a full-blood Romulan, is he?
“A valid theory, and quite possible, but still only a theory…”
Well, the dark side of the force is a pathway to abilities some consider to be unnatural…and you know, I guess I do have certain abilities…
I remember guessing three essential surprises of “Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows” one year before its release after having had some sort of vision…I posted my theories online and everybody was laughing at them…the rest is franchise history…
I’m industrial designer and huge Star Trek fan, and I can hardly wait to see how Mr. JJ and his team developed this new image, in terms of design and how reflects the spirit of the Star Trek world that we all know .
Of course that will be different in terms of the design.
The fun part, I think, will be to compare the two visions …
I think also that there is no good or bad concepts,new or old,they are only different.
The only thing I ask for is a good story, a good Trek story…
forgive my grammar and my writing in English, I am working to improve it
So it all comes down to this…
• TOS Kirk: “We met when he was promoted to fleet captain”.
• Greenwood says he worked “with Chris Pine on some of the scenes”.
I can’t for the life of me see this as a possible canon violation. Kirk’s reference to having met Pike could have spanned several days, or weeks, when both officers were at Starfleet going through the process of changeover.
Greenwood’s reference to being in scenes with Kirk could be a reference to just a couple of conversations that took place within the space of 5 minutes (like, a chat in a hallway then a chat on the bridge).
If Greenwood had said Pike had to leave his command because his vulcan wife was going through pon farr, or that the injured Pike decided to wear a full body suit and change his name to Vader — THEN maybe this article might have been worth the controversy.
286;
Sela would reference one of the weaker llinks in Unification, IMHO
#286—I think that if Nero were the offspring of Spock, his mother would be the Romulan Commander from “The Enterprise Incident”.
That might make a good story, but it would, IMO, be too fanboyish for general audiences to follow well…
I would love it.
Sela, though? That’s weak.
I’m sorry Alex, but frankly, while you enjoy immersing yourself in the “factual details” of a fictional universe, many do not.
The pandering of Trek over the last 10-15 years to those like you has, at this point, caused Star Trek to be viewed simply as an enthusiast only club, with little room for casual viewers. These kind of debates over one line in a 40 year old show – where there can be no right answer, are frankly being jettisoned.
Thats why this movie is needed, to sweep the old “Trek” and its rules into a parallel universe, where you and the “old school” can continue to be sold novels, diagrams, etc. In the meanwhile, the “new Trek” will likely attract the bigger budgets, the better writers and ultimately better stories to be told. It will spin its own rules, but for now, the writers are free to do with they want – with the general understanding that as a parallel universe to the “old Trek” some fundamental facts need should be respected.
In that sense, the Trek Supreme Court is not about following the old precedents, but about which ones are fundamental to the Trek universe and should continue in the new universe.
#274
Since the origin story has never been done before, it is of interest to everyone. However, if you want to jump to another era in Trek without rebooting, you will either have to retell stories that have already been told or make the newly interested audience go back and learn the era.
If the audience becomes interested because of this new movie – this is the era they will want to see more of. To interest them in the TOS era and expect them to make a jump to another is not too smart.
There is lots of competition out there. More recent Trek is not as unique as it once was. Why would someone want Trek over all the other Sci-Fi series out there now?
Perhaps you need to read what Enterainment Weekly has to say about Trek and the state it is in currently. All the excuses for Trek’s demise can’t erase what is :
“But a busted phaser is the least of the challenges Abrams faces as he attempts to reenergize a franchise that has clearly lost its zap. As embodied by the short-lived late-’60s TV series starring William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy, Star Trek inspired rabid fandom (they’re called Trekkers, please, not Trekkies), and was once the definition of smart sci-fi. The series subverted America’s cynical Cold War culture with its rich vision of a peaceful future and a weird, wonderful universe worthy of joint exploration. But since the box office peak of the original film series in 1986 (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home), the Trek brand has devolved into a near-irrelevant cultural joke, likely to inspire giggles and unprintable curses from even its most ardent supporters. After a succession of contrived TV spin-offs (the last, UPN’s Star Trek: Enterprise, mustered only a feeble 2 million viewers in its final season) and mediocre features based on the best of the bunch (Star Trek: The Next Generation), even people who’d built their entire careers around Trek could see the writing on the wall. ”Star Trek,” says Leonard Nimoy, ”had run its course.”
Why would someone want to continue with this? Its a proven failure.
#282 – “WTF…come on, there cannot be ANY canon violation in this movie since it does for sure take place in an alternate reality!”
And you know this for certain…how? We have been told there will be alternate realities within the film,. but we don’t know if the changes relative to the rest of Trek are permanent or significant. You have some inside info the rest of us don’t? If so, my friend, spill. :)
#291 – “I’m sorry Alex, but frankly, while you enjoy immersing yourself in the “factual details” of a fictional universe, many do not.”
Perhaps. But many, I daresay most, like the broad swath of their fictional world to remain consistent on the general level. They;’re not gonna care about line-by-line stuff, but they will be disturbed if told, “Yeah, the last 40 years? Forget it.”
“The pandering of Trek over the last 10-15 years to those like you has, at this point, caused Star Trek to be viewed simply as an enthusiast only club, with little room for casual viewers.”
I don’t see Trek has having done any such thing, and certainly not at the cost of its stories. Sorry, I can’t ascribe to that interpretation. See my previous comments about why Trek has lost some level of popularity. Continuity ain’t the problem.
(snip)
“In that sense, the Trek Supreme Court is not about following the old precedents, but about which ones are fundamental to the Trek universe and should continue in the new universe.”
Well, perhaps, but what they *said* in terms of that analogy was that there’d be times when they’d be looking at the contradictions of early TOS and making decisions about how to resolve them for the purposes of a new story being told in that era. (And, let’s face it, there *are* such contradictions and choosing a preferred interpretation isn’t the same thing as throwing out total continuity.) They’ve said nothing about throwing out the old Trekverse, which goes back to my previous feeling that either they’re lying to us, which I don’t really believe, or this whole thing may yet be a tempest in a teapot, and while we might see some differing interpretations of occasional throwaway lines, we’re not going to see the basic storytelling of Star Trek tossed aside.
#267 “Only those over 40 will want 40 years of storyline to be maintained. More of the population is under 40 than over 40. On top of that, most people over 40 haven’t been watching Trek for 40 years and would prefer a new story line instead of trying to figure out what been occuring for the last few centuries.”
Well I wanted it to be maintained, and I’m only 29. How do you explain that?
There is no canon in Star Trek. How many times do I have to say this?
#292 – “Since the origin story has never been done before, it is of interest to everyone.”
Anyone who had an interest in Kirk, Spock, etc., at least. The obvious reason for choosing them is that they have the most resonance in pop culture. Even TNG, which has been asserted to be the most popular Trek series of all (
“However, if you want to jump to another era in Trek without rebooting, you will either have to retell stories that have already been told or make the newly interested audience go back and learn the era.”
Why? I don’t understand that. Why do they have to learn anything outside of what they’re told in the stories themselves, no matter what era in which the story take place? See, it goes back to another flaw in the whole reboot argument… the assumption that telling stories in continuity means you don’t meet the basic writing requirement of telling your audience what they need to know *in the story* to make it understandable to them, just the same as if you’re telling a story in an entirely new world. And if a writer is relying on meta-story information to make his/her story comprehensible, well, that’s bad writing, in continuity or not.
“If the audience becomes interested because of this new movie – this is the era they will want to see more of. To interest them in the TOS era and expect them to make a jump to another is not too smart.”
Okay, I understand that even less. that’s like saying fans should never have been willing to accept TNG, because they’d been interested first in TOS. ;) But what I meant, even more directly, was the idea that CBS/Paramount might want to market TOS to new fans brought in and introduced to the characters in the film, and obviously implying (let alone explicating) the idea that the two have nothing to do with one another is a really dumb business move.
If that then expands to an interest in the other series, so much the better, and I’m sure that if they can get that, the studio will be more than happy.
“Perhaps you need to read what Enterainment Weekly has to say about Trek and the state it is in currently.
(snip)”
I’m quite familiar with the article. It’s interesting, but it’s not arguing that continuity is a bad thing. It’s arguing much of what I’ve said previously, that after many seasons in general, and after a couple of series and two films widely felt–rightly or wrongly, and I’m not gonna get into that debate–to be substandard, the imprimitur of quality that Star Trek used to have had been undercut. And while I don’t agree with the assessments of individual films or series, I do agree that there are legitimate reasons for the reactions.
“Why would someone want to continue with this? Its a proven failure.”
Depends on what “this” is. I don’t see “this” as meaning continuity or the fictional world of Trek, which has nothing to do with what EW is talking about. I *do*, however, see “this* as meaning poor writing and contrived storytelling. Much as I loved ENT, for example, I had more than a few occasions (especially early in the show) when I’d watch an episode and think that the characters just had to be dunces to get into that situation. (That got better later, but by then it was too late, and the audience had given up.)
So, instead, the solution for Mr. Abrams and his team isn’t to throw out the Trekverse at all. It’s to write a good, smart, fun movie. If they do that, keeping it as part of Star Trek can do nothing but help both them and CBS/Paramount, because it might get people interested in sampling other Trek stuff. And if they *can’t* do that, it really won’t matter, because another poorly written or contrived movie will fail pretty quickly.
Admittedly, I’m a little worried about a time travel plot, because those have a tendency to get contrived (and often dopey) real quick. But I also have a certain level of faith in the writers because I’ve enjoyed their work in recent years, and I am trusting in what they’ve said, both on this site and elsewhere, that their intent is in fact to make a film that is true to the rest of Trek and will add to the world of Star Trek, not try to replace it.
#295 – “There is no canon in Star Trek. How many times do I have to say this?”
I dunno. How many times do you have to say it before you realize that it’s not accurate? ;)
Granted, the term “canon” in this sort of context isn’t the same as how the word was originally coined, but it does have a defined meaning, and a defined existence, in the context of Trek discussions.
Don’t forget that Chekov, who is supposed to be about 10 years younger than Kirk, is also in the movie as enrolled in the academy.
This is a reboot. Plain and simple.
love the debate
Re: #286—I think that if Nero were the offspring of Spock, his mother would be the Romulan Commander from “The Enterprise Incident”.
Not possible! – since they never got it on because they were interrupted when Spock’s communication was discovered remember? Come to think of it though, they might have got it together in the turbo lift at the end of the episode.
#298 – I don’t think we’ve seen a single thing that suggests that, even in this film, everybody’s in the Academy at the same time. We already knew that we’re seeing events scattered over a wide span of time, from Kirk and Spock’s childhoods, through scenes at the Academy, to time on the Enterprise, both while Pike is CO and apparently eventually leading up to the beginning of Kirk’s command. And from the look of things, we’re seeing pictures from a variety of time periods, too. I’m not seeing anything so far to suggest that Kirk and Chekov are at the Academy at the same time.
#299 – I had a feeling you’d be enjoying all this, Bob. :)
There is a big debate on Chekov being on board during the first season of the show. If he indeed was, as suggested by TWOK, then he obviously came aboard AFTER “Mudd’s Women.” The evidence of that was that in “I, Mudd,” he did not know who Harry Mudd was.
299. Boborci –
“love the debate”
You’re in an enviable position! Actually, i love the debate, too. It’s gratifying to see so many people passionate about this fantasy timeline. And now I dive back into that soup….
302. eagle219406 –
“There is a big debate on Chekov being on board during the first season of the show. If he indeed was, as suggested by TWOK, then he obviously came aboard AFTER “Mudd’s Women.” The evidence of that was that in “I, Mudd,” he did not know who Harry Mudd was.”
You are assuming Chekov has always been a bridge officer and/or he’d need to be on duty during the events in “Mudd’s Women”. He could easily have been aboard during that episode and either not been a bridge officer or not been on duty at the time.
#296
When you make a mistake, and you are granted the ability to fix it, why wouldn’t you? We both agree that Trek has “lost its zap … and has devolved into a near-irrelevant cultural joke, likely to inspire giggles and unprintable curses from even its most ardent supporters” — am I correct?
If you agree with that, how will doing an origin movie about TOS crew without any type of reboot improve what Trek has become?
What this movie presents will not be what Trek is currently. TOS is a proven winner. Current state of Trek proven loser. I say cut your loses, fold and start a new game. You want to keep playing your hand no matter how bad it is and keep losing.
Nothing in this upcoming movie leads me to believe that newcomers, and Trekkers who no longer like what Trek has become, will want to go back to what Trek currently is.
When something stops working, and you have tried numerous times to repair it, get a new one.
I am sometimes wondering. I am always hearing about how TOS was the best of all the Star Trek series. Yet when I was reading reviews of that, pretty much every episode I saw reviewed, the majority were saying the episode sucked. And I am not talking about the remastered effects. Can anybody make sense out of that?
267. ByGeorge – October 25, 2008
“Only those over 40 will want 40 years of storyline to be maintained. More of the population is under 40 than over 40. On top of that, most people over 40 haven’t been watching Trek for 40 years and would prefer a new story line instead of trying to figure out what been occuring for the last few centuries. ”
I’m 41 and all I want is a good story, updating a tired old show to fit into 2009, good acting and good action. I could care less if McCoys hair is parted the wrong way or if Kirks eyes are a different color or if there is one line that doesn’t correspond exactly to a line 40 years earlier. Lighten up people! As long as it looks like Trek and feels like Trek.. I will be more than happy. I think the bridge looks great. The original was a little dated with the lego buttons.
#305—First of all, “reviews” are as subjective as the opinions on this forum.
But I have always felt that not all 79 episodes stand the test of time. In fact, I think there are about 25 ‘great’ TOS episodes. The rest, IMO, range from ‘okay’ to ‘bad’. Some of them are ’so’ bad….they’re fantastic!
I would still put those 25 TOS episodes against just about anything in the spinoffs. I can barely find 25 episodes in 25 seasons of Trek spinoffs that I can even stand to sit through, and most of the ones that keep my attention at all are from the last season of DS9 or the tail end of ENT.
Even in a bad episode of TOS, the quality of the characters saves the day.
I would take a mediocre Kirk/Spock/McCoy story over the best one involving the French guy who speaks with an English accent, likes opera, quoting Shakespeare, and drinking Earl Grey tea.
Its simple, “Spock, Kirk, McCoy, Checkov, Sulu, Uhura, Scotty, Enterprise” still contain some cachet. 40 years of being in people’s homes through the tube, makes them valuable properties to Paramount.
But the rest of the “canon” around Trek has made it an impossible mess and a joke. Mostly because writers were afraid of pissing off people who would refuse to accept a “non canon Trek” So they played it safe, with notable exceptions, like DS9. The last few TNG movies, were so safe they were an insufferable boor – even a loud boor like “Nemesis”
So Paramount told Abrams, Orci and the rest to jettison 40 years of baggage while maintaining the “core” Thats what is going on, and if you won’t accept this “new trek” because Kirk and Pine worked together on the E, then thats just a shame.
Hasn’t anyone at least thought that the timeline is different when old spock goes back to meet young spock…?
Remember “Yesterday’s Enterprise”…the crew starts in one time line, the Bozman starts coming thru the rift, and voila!…replacement timeline kicks in…
Don’t you think that Old Spock will recognize the difference (ala Guinan)…? He’s probally there to set the timeline straight…ala Marty McFly…and make a few changes for the better…whatever the better is, I don’t proclaim to know.
“you mean to tell me my MOM has the hots for me…that’s illogical.”
The Bridge looks like it was Apple-fied. That desk on the bridge has to be a yeoman’s station. Also, it’s not perfectly symmetrical. The CO’s chair looks to be off to the starboard side of the bridge. Look behind McCoy…you can see the rear of the Bridge, and the support columns, and if you line them up. the yeoman’s station is to port, the XO chair is opposite. I’m betting there’s 2 turbolifts, one on each side, ala Probert’s movie Enterprise.
Look, Purists should know that the rug was pulled out from under them a long time ago. The Closest they got to TOS on big screen was TMP.
I for one want to be entertained. I like what I hear about XI.
#302 – “There is a big debate on Chekov being on board during the first season of the show. If he indeed was, as suggested by TWOK, then he obviously came aboard AFTER “Mudd’s Women.” The evidence of that was that in “I, Mudd,” he did not know who Harry Mudd was.”
Perhaps, but another answer is that it’s a big crew, and Chekov was possibly among the several hundred Enterprise crewmembers whose duties brought him nowhere near Harry Mudd or those three ladies. It’s really not that hard to explain circumstances like *that*. ;)
#304 – “When you make a mistake, and you are granted the ability to fix it, why wouldn’t you? We both agree that Trek has “lost its zap … and has devolved into a near-irrelevant cultural joke, likely to inspire giggles and unprintable curses from even its most ardent supporters” — am I correct?”
Well, we agree that EW wrote that. I don’t happen to think they’re correct, myself. Based on my experiences, most people I encounter don’t feel that way about Trek at all. Some may not like it, but it’s more that Trek and sci-fi aren’t their thing than it is because Trek itself is so laughable. Now, to be fair, one market that Trek hasn’t captured in a long time is youngsters. Partly that’s because Paramount hasn’t done a Trek project that is designed to capture kiids’ imaginations in a couple of decades, and partly it’s because the basic way of producing Trek–stylistically, I mean–really didn’t change much until very late in ENT’s run, so while other parts of TV were evolving, Trek wasn’t, and it lost its luster with young audiences.
Fandom really didn’t help. Over the years, I saw many a comment to the effect of, “If they make a kids’ show, I won’t support it.” I guess Paramount saw that enough, and they didn’t try. Well, maybe ’til now, and I think part of what we’re seeing with the new film is an attempt to capture the attention of younger audiences. That’s one reason why I’m willing to accept some level of stylistic change, because it might just be necessary to have that to capture the younger folks’ attention.
“If you agree with that, how will doing an origin movie about TOS crew without any type of reboot improve what Trek has become?”
Even if I did agree, the answer would be obvious. If the film comes out with a strong, engaging story, and the characters are as compellingly portrayed as we believe they can be, and the general public agrees that those things have happened, that–by itself–is a major difference from public response to the last two series, and last two movies. *As* an origin story, the vast bulk of the other continuity you seem to have such a problem with hasn’t even happened yet, and as such is not even a concern, let alone any real impediment to the story, since there’s so little of it in that era to keep track of.
“What this movie presents will not be what Trek is currently. TOS is a proven winner. Current state of Trek proven loser. I say cut your loses, fold and start a new game. You want to keep playing your hand no matter how bad it is and keep losing.”
Not at all. I simply don’t think that the hand has cards that say, “The Trek Universe is bad.” I don’t even think the deck has those, because I don’t think that’s even an issue. And, as you say, since TOS is a proven winner, and the movie is a TOS origin story, the only real requirement that continuity places on it is to fit in with TOS and not contradict the other shows. Since none of the other shows had much to say about that timeframe, I’m not seeing a problem here.
Remember, staying in continuity doesn’t men gratuitous forced references (which seems to be what a lot of the reboot-set seems to think it means). It simply means not outright contradicting things previously established. Datapoints from early TOS (and maybe a few TAS items?) are really the only things that need to be watched for, and how hard is it to keep track of the 5 or 10 details they mentioned directly about that time period? I mean, come on…
“Nothing in this upcoming movie leads me to believe that newcomers, and Trekkers who no longer like what Trek has become, will want to go back to what Trek currently is.”
Oh, I dunno. Once they’ve actually started to pay attention to it all, and assuming they enjoyed the film, it’s hard to say what people will like and won’t like. After all, even among the established fanbase, there was never total agreement about what they liked and didn’t like. Add a few million new eyes, and who knows?
“When something stops working, and you have tried numerous times to repair it, get a new one.”
But when the repairs don’t address the causes of the problem, even assuming that the problem is anything more complex than overload of the market, it’s pretty easy to see that those same fixes, repeated again and again, wouldn’t resolve the situation. One doesn’t fix a ruptured fuel line with a new paint job, after all.
I’ts a good thing he’s making it for the movie fans and not Trek fans, they are much easier to please than us and more important to the franchise success.
I also hope they can keep the Enterprise under wraps until we see it on the screen in a big dramatic reveal, but no such luck when the merchandising models start to get leaked.
#308 – “Its simple, “Spock, Kirk, McCoy, Checkov, Sulu, Uhura, Scotty, Enterprise” still contain some cachet. 40 years of being in people’s homes through the tube, makes them valuable properties to Paramount.”
Agreed.
“But the rest of the “canon” around Trek has made it an impossible mess and a joke.”
How so?
“Mostly because writers were afraid of pissing off people who would refuse to accept a “non canon Trek” So they played it safe, with notable exceptions, like DS9.”
DS9 is a good example of just how easy it is to do some pretty interesting stuff while still staying well within the bounds of continuity. DS9, in fact, was both very well written and innovative, while at the same time did a much better job than TNG of maintaining both its own internal continuity and continuity with the rest of Trek.
“The last few TNG movies, were so safe they were an insufferable boor – even a loud boor like ‘Nemesis’ ”
Boor, or bore? FWIW, I happen to agree that both “Insurrection” and “Nemesis” had their shortcomings, though continuity wasn’t among them. I just thought that they weren’t effective stories. “Insurrection” threw out a potentially heavy duty story and turned it into disgruntled kids. Disgruntled kids?! Huh? And “Nemesis” had an almost unbelievable premise and ended up being a “Wrath of Khan” retread.
“So Paramount told Abrams, Orci and the rest to jettison 40 years of baggage while maintaining the “core” Thats what is going on,”
Oh, is that what they were told? Got a source to confirm that? ;)
“and if you won’t accept this “new trek” because Kirk and Pine worked together on the E, then thats just a shame.”
Well, that’d be kinda silly, since I think it’s been pretty well established that it’s a non-issue, and hardly any sort of continuity showstopper.
Moving right along… :)
Well I finally found and got the EW cover article on the new Trek Movie. All of these debates on canon are interesting but pointless as JJ is doing things the way he thinks will be most successful. In the excellent EW article JJ states they are trying to turn Trek into a movie EVERYONE will want to see….it involves putting spinning do-dads on the phasers to make them look cooler. The bridge look more Apple Imac like….(personally I like the look better and makes sense for todays audiences-its more visual, after all it CANT look like the cardboard low budget sets originally despite how fond we fans are of it) And yes JJ does want to make it more like star wars as in more action humor..jj Says his smart friends preferred Trek but that he preferred the more visceral experience of star wars….The article also says this means bigger budget more efx and reinventing the mythos as needed….
Here are the reasons why this sounds like the best and only thing to do, and how lucky we are that JJ and crew have undertaken it upon themselves to reinvent our beloved franchise….EW reports…”Abrams says he was also drawn to the project because he believed in and wanted to evangelize Treks unabashed idealism. I think a movie that shows people of various races working together and surviving hundreds of years from now is not a bad message to put out right now…Trekkers will be excited too. Nimoys first scene in the film, screened for EW, is goose-bumpily cool…”
Also Quinto got the spock role after Nimoy screened his audition video. Nimoy said, “I could see Zach had an internal life as an actor , which is important to the Spock character because there is so little to show physically. I called JJ immediately told him he was going to work.”
EW also writes,” Watching Pine and Quinto work on set and seeing some of their work on screen-suggests both may deliver star making performances.”
Lastly EW writes,” Based on footage screened for EW by JJ-THE AWE INSPIRING INTRODUCTION of the Enterprise(YESSSSS); thrilling action sequences on a harsh ice planet and in the skies of Vulcan-the director has transformed Star Trek into state of the art pop.”
Trek in the 60s was state of the art tv pop for the times…sounds like JJ has remade, yes remade….this is a reboot despite how many say it is not….trek for state of the art movies for today. It is the only way Trek could survive… All of us TOS purists would probably hate and be mad at this movie, except….IT IS STAR TREK! The optimism…the characters….the vast scope…the basic shape of the enterprise…basic layout etc…the same yet different….and heavily character driven….JJ also says that he didnt love Kirk and Spock when he started but he does now because the script and story written is so emotional and so relatable. I think all of these considerations on what is important to do and what is not so important to do (make the look the same) is the right way they should have done this….We all have to get over the canon the slightly different look…etc…..IT STILL IS STAR TREK…And It MAY BE THE BEST STAR TREK YET! Wait until we see it before judging it….I am hopeful that it will be the best Trek. I am hopeful and take JJ at his work and the EW article really helped convince me hes on the right track…
Christopher Pike is being played by Cliff Richard?
When did this happen???
#309 Remember “Yesterday’s Enterprise”…the crew starts in one time line, the Bozman starts coming thru the rift, and voila!…replacement timeline kicks in…
I think you’re a little confused. It was Enterprise-C that came through the time rift in “Yesterday’s Enterprise,” and created an alternate time line. And at the end, as soon as it went back, time returned to normal. The Bozeman was in the episode, “Cause and Effect,” where it came through time and crashed into the enterprise causing time to constanly repeat itself.
Just wondering, If people hated them so much, then how come the DVDs sold so well. And the movies in the theater.
I have to hope the new powers that be hewed closely to the continuity because from a business standpoint, Paramount is hoping this movie revitalizes their most valuable “property.” Part of the intent of this movie would be to intrigue a new, younger generation of fans in (spending money on) exploring the original series. They wouldn’t want to drift so far from the original that kids might interpret it as an antique, archaic turn-off.
In a way it’s like how rights holders to properties like Elvis and “Peanuts” battle to revitalize them and keep them current. There was a good piece in The New York Times recently about how Disney is working very hard to make the Muppets current and interesting to kids again after a period where it had gone stale. Some of that probably went on behind the scenes of the development of this new Trek. We know that to be part of the thinking on the CBS Video side when they mounted remastered CGI Trek.
- Sometimes i’m asking myself if all that secrecy reveals just the fact that the movie doesn’t have a real strong story …maybe this.. non-vulcanian (?!?) bad guy should be just a simple Jem’Hadar from a distant future…
All i want to know now is if we will see a wounded Pike..this should be a pretty cool thing..isn’t it..?
Well that’s it – this is me signing off forever!. I can’t stand all the spoilers anymore.
Already, I have seen and heard too much from the forthcoming movie.
I don’t want to know anymore –
I will never go on another ST site until after I have seen it in the cinema –
I WANT TO EXPERIENCE THE MAGIC first hand.
Bye Bye
I sometimes wonder what people’s problem is with a Black Vulcan. Come on guys, are humans the only ones allowed to have Multi-colored skin?
#315 – ” ‘#309 Remember “Yesterday’s Enterprise”…the crew starts in one time line, the Bozman starts coming thru the rift, and voila!…replacement timeline kicks in…’
I think you’re a little confused. It was Enterprise-C that came through the time rift in “Yesterday’s Enterprise,” and created an alternate time line. And at the end, as soon as it went back, time returned to normal.”
Right. Star Trek has lots of examples of timelines being altered by one or another event and then being restored, including “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, “Year of Hell”, even “City on the Edge of Forever”. If this film does that, I have no problems with it. There’s even at least one example of a timeline altered very slightly, with a subtle change in isolation, but otherwise things proceed as they had been: “Yesteryear”.
“The Bozeman was in the episode, “Cause and Effect,” where it came through time and crashed into the enterprise causing time to constanly repeat itself.”
Actually, IIRC, the Enterprise had gotten caught in the timeloop, and that loop just happened to include the exit point for the Bozeman’s time jump, thus resulting in the collision. Once the chain of events was broken by the Enterprise doing something different, i.e. moving and getting out of the way, they escaped the loop. That was a pretty darn cool episode, I thought.
320 – “I sometimes wonder what people’s problem is with a Black Vulcan. Come on guys, are humans the only ones allowed to have Multi-colored skin?”
I think the idea was originally that Vulcan was supposed to have a more homogeneous environment than Earth, and thus the variations in climate that led to variations among types of humans would exist as much on Vulcan. The obvious question is *why* Vulcan would be assumed to be so homogeneous, and does it make sense that to assume the variations *couldn’t* be there? I always thought the answer to that last was “No”, myself, and thus it made sense that Vulcans could have different levels of protective melanin (or the equivalent) in their skin.
We’ve also seen skin tone variations in both Orions and Andorians, so it seems that Humans aren’t at all unique in such things.
“183- Hi there How you been?I am eager to see the trailer, what did you think of the pics? I likethe uniforms and the actors look well but the bridge has been a disappointed to me, doesn’t seem faithful to TOS.”
Hi captain! I’m fine. Woefully behind on reading the threads — dang RL. It interferes with my fun on this site. ;) I look forward to the trailer very much. Pictures are nice but moving action so much better to judge things with. As for my opinion — the uniforms look nice except the miniskirts are so 60s while the Bridge design, so not. Kinda jarring to me. I figured the bridge would be pretty different and to be honest I’ve never really cared about upgrades due to time and budget. (I understand however those that do. ) I am disappointed in Quinto’s makeup. Hope it looks better in the film than on that EW cover.
It should Krikzil as the EW article mentions that he shaved his eyebrows and grew out his hair for the role…as others have mentioned I think the ew cover is an after the movie posing for pics things by EW so of course they had to use a wig and stuff….also if you look at the pix of spock in the article they do look better than that..I hope so too!
#321 “Actually, IIRC, the Enterprise had gotten caught in the timeloop, and that loop just happened to include the exit point for the Bozeman’s time jump, thus resulting in the collision. Once the chain of events was broken by the Enterprise doing something different, i.e. moving and getting out of the way, they escaped the loop. That was a pretty darn cool episode, I thought.”
Well really if you go back to that episode, the loop didn’t “Include” the exit point. The exit point was a break or tear in Space, time continuum. When the Bozeman crashed into the Enterprise, it through the tear out of wack, creating the time loop.
Which brings up an interesting question. If the timeline was altered by Enterprise-C coming into the future, why wasn’t it altered by the Bozeman. Unless of course history recorded that it dissappeared.
Form The Character Bios on startrek.com:
STARFLEET HISTORICAL DATABASE: Spock
Full Biography Mode
Rank: Captain, retired
Serial number: S179-276SP
Full Name: Spock (lineal Vulcan name unpronounceable)
Year of birth: 2230
Place of birth: Shi’Kahr, Vulcan
Parents: Ambassador Sarek and his wife Amanda Grayson
Education: Starfleet Academy, 2249-53
Kirk, James T.
Mid-level Biography Brief Mode
Final Rank: Captain
Full Name: James Tiberius Kirk
Date of birth: March 22, 2233
Place of birth: Riverside, Iowa, Earth
Education: Starfleet Academy, 2250-2254
Marital status: Single
So Spock is 3 years Older then Kirk, and their Academy Years overlap by 3 Years.
327
those are the ages we worked with…
“Spock: Seven years, four months, five days.”
ELEVEN years, four months, five days.
#327—The problem with Spock’s bio from St.com is his birth year.
In TAS, “Yesteryear”, Spock travels back through the guardian 30 Earth years to an event which took place when he was 7 Earth years of age. Obviously, he was 37 during the time of that episode’s story.
Accepting 2230 as the year of his birth would place “Yesteryear” in 2267, and thus within the timeframe of the second season episodes.
“Yesteryear” must take place after “COTEOF” and “Journey To Babel”, so I suppose that is possible. It just seems so unlikely that Kirk and co. would return to the Guardian’s planet so soon after the horrible experience there before, without so much as a mention of it. It has also been assumed for decades that this story took place after the 3rd and final season of TOS.
This doesn’t, IMO, make it canonically impossible…but (again, IMO) not a very well thought out placement of Spock’s birth year—particularly since Spock never actually says that he was born in 2230 (or Kirk in 2233, for that matter). Star Trek.com or not, I do not consider that source canon, since the information is not based upon anything referenced in an official production of Star Trek on television or film. I think it is not unlike Okuda’s Chronology or some other reference source. The information is obviously not solely based upon established canon, but instead relies upon someone’s conjecture as well.
#330 – One thing that a lot of folks forget is that there is a heck of a lot of conjecture in the OKuda books. One of the down-sides to the fact that no updated references have been published is that even when those works were superseded by on-screen material (e.g., the finally-established dates of Kirk’s 5-year mission {2265-70, not 2264-69}), the new information hasn’t translated out to a lot of the sites that used the Encyclopedia/Chronology as primary references.
Heck, until the VOY episode pinned those dates down, even the 5-year mission dates were conjecture, and stood in contrast to the on-screen information in TWOK that 15 years had passed since “Space Seed”.
At least Kirk’s birth year could be extrapolated if one took the Okuda dates of TOS to be an axiom (which the Okudas obviously did) and worked back from “The Deadly Years”. The Okudas obviously did not rely much on TAS, since they felt okay with contradicting Spock’s age there. If they had followed that dialogue, Kirk and Spock would probably be listed as even closer in age.
BTW, whether we quibble about the validity of the reference material, kudos to you and the team, Bob O., for doing the research!
@330: (condescendingly and with much smugness) but TAS isn’t canon!
(ducks)
Only joking. But seriously, this serves to reinforce the point I have made in this and other threads. Canon is not always 100% accurate – it’s like history. They get mixed up over time, distorted as they are translated, misinterpreted and analysed.
Debating a canon ‘warp core breach’ is effectively a moot point – because we have several verifiable examples of canon actually contradicting itself. It’s already convoluted. My discussion re: starship construction earlier is a prime example. Were they built in space, were they built on the ground? We have canonical references to support BOTH arguments.
Likewise, when Kirk says he met Pike, it’s kind of implied that it was just in passing. But the way he talks to him later in the episode impies that they’ve had some form of familiarity in the past, hence Kirk calling him ‘Chris’. There’s evidence there to support both arguments, and therefore Kirk meeting Pine while he’s actually Captain of the Enterprise isn’t such a massive problem after all.
I think the ‘Nero-going-back-in-time-and-destroying-the-Kelvin-and-mucking-up-the-timeline’ theory makes a lot of sense, though. It would certainly be a very effective way of avoiding the pitfalls and beartraps of navigating the all-powerful canon, and just allowing the script to be what it is.
@328:
Oh, you guys must be loving this!
#330
I have an even worse problem with that birth year – that of Spock’s mothers age when she had him. In the old Whitfiled&Roddenberry classic book “The Making of Star Trek” Spock’s mother was listed as 58 and his father 103 at the time of “Journey to Babel”. If Kirk is 35, and Spock is 3 years older, it makes Amanda 20 when she had him. That means an almost 70 year old Sarek was hitting on a teenaged Amanda. Somewhat disquieting. I’ll just assume that Amanda’s age is wrong in that book or changed by later authors.
I don’t know if people are still reading this but I have one more thing to say. People are always talking about alternate time lines and such, but there is one thing that people don’t consider. Maybe there is no alternate time-line. I don’t remember Kirk ever mentioning his father or what became of him. And it is possible that they see these Romulans but just think they are Rogue Vulcans. Also, people have been mentioning the TAS episode “Yesteryear.” While not canon, a lot of things in canon were taken from it. For example, What a Sehlat looks like or vulcans spending time in the open desert as a rite of passage. But they forget one thing about it and that is the story. When Spock was a kid, he tried to do this rite of passage early, and when he was in the desert, he was attacked by a wild animal. He was almost killed, but a distant cousin, who was visiting, followed him out and rescued him. Shortly after, the cousin left the village and Spock never saw him again. It wasn’t until years later when he realised that this “distant cousin” who rescued him, was actually himself from the future. It is possible that they used that concept here. Spock meets the future version of himself and just thinks that he’s another vulcan or a distant cousin.
Spock served w Capt Pike for 11 yrs?? then w capt kirk for at least 5?? after 16 yrs? then he became capt of Enterprise in TWOK. thats 25 yrs – why wasnt he made a captain sooner???
then again Riker was commander and EO on the Enterprises D and E for 15 yrs
is this how it is in the military? being commander or 1st officer or EO for 15 or 20 yrs? when do you become capt?
#335 THey may have been offered, but turned it down because it would mean transfer.
I wonder if the movie will give a nod to the Enterprise crew (Archer and gang)
I mean T’Pow is in the Enterprise series and wouldn’t T’Pol still be alive? I think Enterprise was a great show and didn’t get a lot of repect from a lot of fans. They were in a tuff position. Looking futuristic as compared to 2008 but not to over shadow TOS. I mean TOS still used “Data Tapes” That went out in the 1980’s didn’t it?
#335-336 – TNG established that Riker was offered a command three times before or during the series. He turned them down. The Titan was his fourth offer of a command.
Spock apparently also did not seek a command, and only accepted one after the ship was reassigned as a training vessel, and Kirk had transferred to the Academy.
#337 – In one of those cases of reinterpreting what went on “behind the walls”, the idea of what those little flat things were that the characters used seems to have evolved over time, as technology has advanced. One of the more interesting ideas what that it was a handling/interface case for crystal memory disks like the ones used in the tricorders. That one came from the TOS RPG from Last Unicorn a few years ago.
#338 – I remember Spock saying in “Daggars of the Mind”
“No mistake captain, their is a full ID tape on him…”
I mean I’m not a stickler. I know the object of a show is to convey an idea or concept. Some imagination is required. I was only pointing out the position the creaters of Enterprise was in.