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Report From JJ Abrams’ German Star Trek Presentation + more movie details November 12, 2008

by Thorsten Wulff , Filed under: Spoilers,Star Trek (2009 film) , trackback

As noted before by this site, Germans love Star Trek (or as TOS was first referred to, "Raumschiff Enterprise"). Earlier today JJ Abrams brought his travelling show to Cologne Germany. Below we have an exclusive first hand report on the event as well as some additional notes not brought up in our UK report yesterday. [Spoilers of course]

 

Germany is excited about Star Trek
The audience in Cologne’s Cinedom, a mix of movie people and journalists with a couple of fans thrown in for good measure, was thrilled, and JJ got lots of applause before and after every scene intro. He told us twice that it were the first time that he saw the trailer on such a huge screen (I wonder where they went in London yesterday?). The German fans will give the movie two thumbs up, and everybody I talked to was amazed by what JJ, Bob and the rest of the gang achieved.

The organizers of Germany’s biggest Trek Convention, FedCon were  invited, too, and they loved what they saw, and these folks know their Trek canon. Susanne Doepke from FedCon told me she was a bit afraid, but after she saw the footage she was giddily happy. The German TV station RTL shot an interview with her and Con chief organizer Dirk Bartholomae that will be aired next Tuesday.

I talked to Paramount International vice president Rob Moore, and he told me how happy the execs were with JJ’s work. The German head of Paramount, Sven Sturm, asked us to spread the word if we liked what we saw today. And the message from Cologne is clear, Star Trek is back with a big bang. As Nero says in the new trailer: "The wait is over."

Thoughts on the trailer and scenes.
First of all, it is a fantastic movie. Fast paced and funny, and Trek, too. It really speaks to everybody, not just the geeks… it works like Dark Knight and Bond. The Cologne event started at 9 AM with soft drinks and snacks, the lobby was filled with plasma displays showcasing artwork of the film, lots of stills and JJ and company in action shooting the movie, on the Kelvin and Enterprise bridge sets.

Notes on the displays

Much has already been covered yesterday from the UK event, here are some additional details

On the Bar scene

On the Kirk gets smuggled onto Enterprise by McCoy scene

On the scene with Kirk, Spock and Scotty on the ‘frozen planet’

On the scene with Kirk, and Sulu on the drill rig


German invite to the future of Trek

More from TrekNews.de
The folks at TrekNews.de also sent in a translation of their report with some additional notes on the production stills and concept art shown.

Stills:

Concept art:

Also here is a link to their full report (in German), which includes a video review (again in German)
 

Thorsten Wulff is Photojournalist and Graphic Designer, a total Mac head and so he feels right at home on the iBridge… He discovered Star Trek at the age of five and followed the prime directive (beam down and kiss the girl) since then…check out some of his stuff at thorstenwulff.com, (English version in the works…)

Comments

1. The Wild Man of Borneo - November 13, 2008

wow amazing, fantastic! wicked cool! These guys are doing everything right! I am eating up everything they do. OMG I think this movie is going to be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good. I love that nothing resembles anything to Star Trek (except the uniforms). They’re massacring my child hood and it’s soooooo cool!

2. Enterprise - November 13, 2008

Man, this is going to be a fantastic Trek movie!

3. Pete - November 13, 2008

Wow.

4. Ensign Ruiter - November 13, 2008

Wrist communicators and glass turboshaft doors…is this all tied to Spock’s kicking Kirk out on the frozen planet and old Spock’s intervention? Is this for certain an alternate timeline? If it was would al the canon people be happy? It would be very convenient and would explain a great deal.

5. Commodore Redshirt - November 13, 2008

I’m getting more excited almost by the minute!
I LOVE THESE SPOILERS!

6. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

Mixed feelings. Great to see so many planets – Mustafar and Hoth were my favourites in terms of atmosphere from Star Wars, so it is good Trek also has a volcanoes on Vulcan and an ice world now.

BMW logo – I detest product placement. Suppose that I will just have to live with it, this being a Hollywood film.

Still VERY concerned that this will be too much of a military/space battle film. I want something about exploration and philosophy, suitable for the family. We are bombarded with enough killing and military images on the nightly news.

7. Brad - November 13, 2008

Pics or it didn’t happen!

8. devon Richards - November 13, 2008

Funny things is, we hear all this great stuff, and half the people who read it are going to go straight to the IMDB boards and start screaming sacrilage. The more I hear about this movie, the more I can’t wait to see it.
Whether we want to admit it or not, Trek needed saving – and this movie might just do the trick. And then some!!
( ps – Anthony, any thoughts on the personal e-mail I sent you a while back?)

9. Enterprise - November 13, 2008

The part about the Trapped black hole sounds wicked.

10. Kirk, James T. - November 13, 2008

This sound’s absolutely amazing, seriously if this film doesn’t do well then i’ll eat my Star Trek action figures, sounds absolutely amazing and this is from only 20 random minutes from a 2 hour movie, wow!

JJ Abrams might just become the new Steven Spielberg or George Lucas or Christopher Nolan – or all three! with this movie and put Star Trek back right up there kicking Star Wars’ arse haha :P

11. Brad - November 13, 2008

There is no doubt that JJ is going to become the next Spielburg. Lucas? Ummm, did you see any of the new Star Wars movies??

12. FishHead - November 13, 2008

wow….. its fantastic

13. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

Re: 9. Very prescient, given the public hysteria about the Large Hadron Collider! :-)

14. Kirk, James T. - November 13, 2008

one thing, what is Nero doing? i mean what are his motives now? seems to me he’s just a nasty piece of work going round destroying planets?

I thought he was sent back in time to assassinate Kirk? or did he try to do that on the Kelvin?

15. Devon - November 13, 2008

Well this certainly does help lift me back up!

Thanks for the report Thorsten!

BTW, a couple of more people have seen the new Trek Trailer. Word is AMAZING and this movie is going to be huge!

16. Devon - November 13, 2008

“I thought he was sent back in time to assassinate Kirk? ”

Fan speculation it seems.

17. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

Slightly off-topic: Amongst the pictures/screen captures for the new film, have any of you looked at that picture of Spock standing in front of a viewscreen/porthole closely? You will find a reference to a certain infamous android from the last Trek film in that picture.

18. OR Coast Trekkie - November 13, 2008

Come on Friday… get here…
Come on May… get here…

19. Danya Romulus - November 13, 2008

14/16

What I gleaned from the previous reports was this (please correct me if wrong): it seems like Nero is drilling a huge hole thing into Vulcan in order to simultaneously destroy Vulcan and create a black hole he could travel through to kill young Kirk. The second part of that I am deducing from the fact that in one of the writeups they said that Kirk makes some remark about how the environment around Nero’s drill site is reminiscent of a huge bizarre storm he saw in Iowa as a child. Did others interpret it this way too?

20. Devon - November 13, 2008

6 – “BMW logo – I detest product placement. Suppose that I will just have to live with it, this being a Hollywood film.”

Perhaps you should re-read the post. It says that the BMW logo was only in the concept art, but not in the final footage (which do you think counts?)

As far the Space Battles vs. Philosophy thing.. please, I don’t want to see a 2 Hour episode of Frasier on the big screen ;) Maybe enough that it isn’t boring, but it should tell a good story first and foremost.

21. Devon - November 13, 2008

19 – “What I gleaned from the previous reports was this (please correct me if wrong): it seems like Nero is drilling a huge hole thing into Vulcan in order to simultaneously destroy Vulcan”

Sounds likely.

“and create a black hole he could travel through to kill young Kirk”

MOST definitely not. For one, not sure if you know how Black Holes work but Black Holes absorb all light and everything else as it basically destroys anything in it’s path because it’s gravity is so strong. Nero can’t travel through a black hole because he would just be stretched to a 10 mile long spaghetti string! Not sure how you deduced that. If Nero was fixated on killing Kirk.. then he should just destroy the Enterprise I’m assuming. It sounds like his fixation is Vulcan for whatever reason.

22. Smike van Dyke - November 13, 2008

Kelvin uniforms are all blue ? Cool. Nice homage to the ENT era…

23. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

“As far the Space Battles vs. Philosophy thing.. please, I don’t want to see a 2 Hour episode of Frasier on the big screen ;) Maybe enough that it isn’t boring, but it should tell a good story first and foremost.”

Understand your concerns but it doesn’t have to be that way. Tarkovsky was certainly able to make philosophical science fiction films that were not like Frasier or preachy in the slightest. I agree, we need a good story and a series of space battles is NOT a good story either.

24. Devon - November 13, 2008

“space battles is NOT a good story either.”

Maybe it is if there is something else underlying going on. The Wrath of Khan proved this!

25. Devon - November 13, 2008

19 – Go to Wikipedia and read up on Black Holes for fun. I may have slightly botched my explanation for Black Holes.

26. Smike van Dyke - November 13, 2008

#21: The fixation is Vulcan because Nero seems to be obsessed with depriving his ancestors of their homeworld and maybe forcing them into becoming volatile like the Romulans…he definitely belongs to an Anti-Surak-Cult of some sort…

One thing’s for sure: the destruction of Vulcan is the second-largest rupture in the known Star Trek universe (next to destroying Earth)…If successful, the entire shape of the future will change…Imagine hundreds of Vulcan ships galavanting around the galaxy in search of a new home or a large Vulcan minority on Earth and other Federation planets…

27. James - November 13, 2008

A lot of this movie sounds very cool, but in light of this glut of spoilers, I am starting to develop some reservations.

I don’t like the new Enterprise, for one – and it doesn’t appear that I’m alone.

The references to Star Wars also worry me. I know it has to appeal to a mainstream audience, but the last thing anyone wants of this is an imitation of Star Wars.

Ah, I don’t know. Guess I’ll just have to wait to see the trailer. Roll on!

28. DJT - November 13, 2008

How do you say “SWEET!” in German?

29. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

re 24. The literary references give Wrath of Khan some added depth as does the fact that he has very genuine grievances against Kirk (as does David.)

Nonetheless, I do not like the military emphasis in this film and I actually prefer its predecessor.

30. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

re 24. The literary references give Wrath of Khan some added depth as does the fact that he (Khan) has very genuine grievances against Kirk (as does David.)

Nonetheless, I do not like the military emphasis in this film and I actually prefer its predecessor in many ways.

31. Admiral_Bumblebee - November 13, 2008

If Vulcan gets blown up, there is no Mount Seleya for Spock. So he was never resurrected. But if he was never resurrected, how could he travel back in time in Star Trek IX?

32. Even more Life Like - November 13, 2008

Let me guess what the sequel will have…. Klingons!

33. Ashley - November 13, 2008

I think #1 pretty much summed it up xD …I can’t wait, I think the acting, characters, story, look, feel, sound, and most everything else are going to be spectacular. :)

34. Hanabi - November 13, 2008

#4
I think the wrist communicator in that scene is due to Kirk wearing a spacesuit. I’m assuming they would normally have the flip style communicators.

35. TheCap - November 13, 2008

Cool….

Can’t Wait….

The Enterprise will be great in full action, just wait and see!

36. Mike D - November 13, 2008

#26 – I wonder, what if it’s not about taking out the second most important planet in the Federation, or the Federation at all, but just Vulcan itself? Think about it – last we saw Spock, he’s leading the reunification movement on Romulus. There’s a signifigant passage of time, as he’s apparently older in the new movie. And although it would be nice to forget that Nemesis happened, it does establish that Romulus is in some pretty deep political chaos. What if Spock uses this, and the reunification movement surges forward, becomes mainstream, and reunification actually happens? Surely there would be some kind of backlash from Romulan traditionalists…. maybe the sort of crazy Romulan traditionalists that might get all tattoo happy and just try to destroy Vulcan (or Spock) completely, back before it could become a threat?

Screwing up the timeline might just be an unintended consequence, or a happy bonus.

37. Hans - November 13, 2008

This film just sounds better and better with every update, it sounds like they are doing a wonderful job. You know, the product placement doesn’t worry me, I mean are we to assume that the Earth of the Federation becomes a sterile land of state monopolies in which there is no product variation, where everyone wears the same clothes, does the same thing? Bring it on.

This truly sounds Star Trek brought kicking and screaming up to date and I love it.

38. Sebi - November 13, 2008

@28

Echt stark!

39. siridi - November 13, 2008

i get to watch the original sulu on i’m a celebrity get me out of here, i wonder if he’ll bitch about shatner. as long as this new film gives me a tall ship and stars to steer it by then i think i may enjoy this. sometimes different can be good.

40. Red-Shirted Monkey - November 13, 2008

“You love Pike from the moment he saves Kirk in the bar. He is the father figure in the movie and does a great job.” Really? Really? So much for “I met him when he was promoted to fleet captain.”

“Did you guys ever WATCH the show?!?””
– Guy Fleegman in Galaxy Quest

41. Jeffrey S. Nelson - November 13, 2008

It bothers me that all the crew are together at once. Chekov shouldn’t show up until much later. Spock never met Kirk until years after his his service under Pike. The Menagerie imples this. Where No Man Goes Before obviously introduces Spock to Kirk for the first time. Likely Kirk never met McCoy until Kirk got his first five year command. The movie plot just takes too many liberties…with CANON!!
And that new Enterprise design just sucks!

42. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

It IS good to read how positive all the comments on this particular thread are.

I was absolutely disgusted by the negative, utterly juvenile and downright abusive comments directed at the designer of the “new-look” Enterprise by some people in the previous thread. Glad things are much more civilised here now.

43. Hanabi - November 13, 2008

A bit off topic, but… George Takei to win I’m A Celebrity:
http://celebrity.itv.com/TheCelebrities/george-takei/

:)

44. Hans - November 13, 2008

Well I’m glad we almost got to 50 posts before the canon bores started crying.

45. FEDCONMC - November 13, 2008

Nice to hear Fedcon mentioned. Wish I could have been there but since I’m here in Florida, I’ll wait to see the trailer tomorrow during QOS.

I’m curious to see if the Kirk/Spock chemistry is as evident as it is in the original. It’s time for TREK to make a comeback!! I’m ready.

Come overseas my fellow Americans. We Rock!!!

Marc B. Lee
American Business Manager
FedCon GmbH

46. cugel the clever - November 13, 2008

#31. Admiral_Bumblebee – November 13, 2008
“If Vulcan gets blown up, there is no Mount Seleya for Spock. So he was never resurrected. But if he was never resurrected, how could he travel back in time in Star Trek IX?”

This type of classic paradox was explained nicely in TNG episode “Parallels”. The idea is that there are multiple possible parallel universes, each different because of differing actions, decisions, etc that were taken at a crucial point. For example there are universes where the Borg defeat the Federation and control the galaxy, there is the “mirror universe”, etc. In this scenario, it is possible for the old Spock to exist in a universe where he was never “born” – all that is happening is that the old Spock is from one universe (of the multiverse) and he is going back to an earlier time period of a different universe.

Simple.

47. Captain Cannon - November 13, 2008

Looks like we have another “Phantom Menace” here guys! I won’t bother going to the cinema to see this film, I will get a “pirate” copy and watch it at home!

48. Admiral_Bumblebee - November 13, 2008

#46
But then why would it be so difficult to include William Shatner as old Kirk?

49. Cheve - November 13, 2008

42. Jeffrey S. Nelson – November 13, 2008
“Chekov shouldn’t show up until much later.”

We have never been told that he isn’t a superclever kid who worked in the enterprise before TOS. Never.

“Spock never met Kirk until years after his his service under Pike. The Menagerie imples this. Where No Man Goes Before obviously introduces Spock to Kirk for the first time.”

I fully disagree. There is absolutely anything in the episode implying such a thing. It is an interpretation you make of the episode, but it doesn’t say so explicitly.

“Likely Kirk never met McCoy until Kirk got his first five year command.”

They are all good friends by the time TOS begins. It has never been explicitly said that they didin’t know each other for years before TOS, nor is there anything at all in this issue needing an explanation diferent than “it is your interpretation of the series, but the series neves explicitly said so”

“The movie plot just takes too many liberties…with CANON!!”

Yes, it takes some, all of them due to the bad guy travelling back in time to mess up with history and explained because of the actual plot of the movie, but not any of the ones you just complained about.

“And that new Enterprise design just sucks!”

That’s a matter of oppinion. If you don’t like it, I’m sorry.

50. Q - November 13, 2008

I thought that this movie was going to be Spock centric. But from what we’ve “seen” it’s all about Kirk.

But then again this 20 minutes could mean nothing in terms of story.

51. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

21 – “MOST definitely not. For one, not sure if you know how Black Holes work but Black Holes absorb all light and everything else as it basically destroys anything in it’s path because it’s gravity is so strong.”

True. So how can you keep one in ANY kind of a “container”? Looks like a black hole plot hole. ;)

52. Smike van Dyke - November 13, 2008

Why the hell can’t those pathetic canon crybabies read my and other enlightened peoples’ comments???

THIS MOVIE IS NOT SET IN THE SAME TIMELINE -> NO, THERE ARE NO CANON VIOLATIONS WHATSOEVER…

One more “Chekov shouldn’t be around” or “Kirk didn’t know Spock until WNMHGB” or “The Enterprise is too far off in design” and I’m going to shoot my notebook with my phaser!

WOULD YOU FINALLY APPRECIATE that this movie is SET IN AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE created by NERO’S ATTACK ON KELVIN, KILLING KIRK’S FATHER etc…

It starts out in the old universe with Nero going back in time from the late 24th century (Star Trek: Countdown comic book series) and EVERYTHING CHANGES after he attacked the Kelvin, killing Kirk’s dad George Kirk, who was no longer involved with both Kirk’s education and the construction of the Enterprise…

SO IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE AT ALL TO DISCUSS ISSUES LIKE Chekov being around too early or Kirk behaving differently…EVERYTHING has to be different!

THAT’S WHAT THIS MOVIE IS ALL ABOUT!

NUFF SAID!

53. Hat Rick - November 13, 2008

I don’t get “You have a great whistle.” Spock, explain.

54. Admiral_Bumblebee - November 13, 2008

#52
So everything we saw so far, every episode of TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, every movie is flushed down the toilet by this film? Great concept!
But at least we can rest assured that the series Enterprise happened. Now I’m relieved…

55. Viper-1082 - November 13, 2008

This movie is supposed to show us the beginning of our beloved charakters. When it´s a different timeline, this movie is…meaningless.

56. thebiggfrogg - November 13, 2008

Budweiser Classic, BMW logos. If this becomes sort of f’ed up product placement bonanza I may indeed leave my Trekkin’ to the past iterations. Yuk! Yuk! and Triple Yuk!

57. thebiggfrogg - November 13, 2008

@Devon: Good story doesn’t always mean blowing things up and non-stop action. You can tell a good story with Trek philosophy without having a snooze fest, like TMP (as much as I liked it). Treks II and IV definitely have elements of this while blending in some fast-paced story telling and action. Trek is not just orgiastic Star Wars space battles. If it goes the direction of the Wars prequels I will be done. I have some hope though.

58. Ran - November 13, 2008

Alles ist gut!

59. Darryl - November 13, 2008

People need to dispense with all this “canon” bitchin’ and moanin’.

I’ve been a fan since I was 5, attended my first convention at the age of 13, at the age of 36 I got old school Enterprise tattoed on my arm, I know canon inside and out, I am a die-hard Trek fan.

All this anal-retentive nit picking makes us all look like whiny brats.

Remember, Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. ;?)

60. rocky - November 13, 2008

when will the trailer be aired in germany???? bond is still running here since a week

61. Unbel1ever - November 13, 2008

Having slept about it, I have come to accept the truth, that the Star Trek of Roddenberry is gone. It has it’s own universe. The Abrams Trek plays in an entirely different universe. It has nothing to do with the original. I am open to appreciate for what it is. It starts a new canon, a new universe. I am not sure I will like it, but it’s at least acceptable this way.

62. DaveM - November 13, 2008

#56 – With the current looming financial crisis, you should get used to more “product placement” in eveything. It helps pays the massive bills for mounting a production of this size.

I swear if I ever see Degree underarm deodorant again in any store, I’ll shoot the prople at sci-fi channel who put it on every shipping container and jumpsuit in EUREKA this past season. Eureka turned into an hour long advertisement for Degree in every episode this season. Good lord, talk about over kill.

I understand product placement as a neccessary evil, but Sci-Fi Channel took it way to far.

63. AdamTrek - November 13, 2008

Anti-Capitalists in the House!

It’s a movie folks. You pay a few bucks to see entertainment for a couple of hours, and a large corporation that employs thousands of people makes a profit. A few people get really rich while most earn a decent salary or wage. Sometimes (most times) said company sells the rights to other companies to advertise their products within context of a movie. That’s America. If you don’t like it, then get the &%$# out. It’s called making money. Star Trek is a product, nothing more, I hate to say.

64. James - November 13, 2008

@51:

Romulans actually have a technological history of containing black holes as Romulan Warbirds are powered by small quantum singularities (black holes). They’re held in a special shield, and modifying the phase variance of the shield produces the energy.

This is a different technology to the anti-matter/matter reactors used by the Federation.

Of course, now that the timeline has been rebooted by either Nero, Abrams or both, such canonical snippets are irrelevant… ;-)

65. rehabilitated hitch1969© - November 13, 2008

ay caramba…. its going to be a long, long day at trekmovies dot com dot org today.

THE WOMEN!!

=h=

66. trekkerguy - November 13, 2008

Ah, just what Trek needed… the cleaning of the house when it comes to fans is upon us :D

As for product placement, wtf? How is it a “necessary evil”?
It adds to the realism and relatablity of the movie universe.
I’d much rather see a Mountain Dew machine in a movie than a genaric
“Soda pop” machine, or Budwieser instead of “Freshly brewed” or
something. It may be product placement but it also make it seem more
normal. Now I am going to go back to playing my Xbox 360 while I drink some Mountain Dew and hmm… some Burger King sounds good too…

67. fred - November 13, 2008

Well, I was REALLY hoping that this film would fill in the gaps in the history of our characters, and show how they really all came together. But, it seems we are getting a re-written history, one that never happened to the characters in the show. May be a great movie, but it’s not a prequel as I had hoped, but a new start.

Oh well, for what it is, it should be good. Just not what I was hoping for… the true story of how they all met.

68. RaveOnEd - November 13, 2008

53 – From reading on other sites about the 20 minutes of footage being shown, Kirk is getting the tar beat out of him in the bar (after hitting on Uhura), and Pike stops the fight with a loud whistle, then telling the Starfleet personnel beating up Kirk to get out of there.

69. Chasco - November 13, 2008

“Simon Pegg is priceless”

Right. So that fits with the Scotty who faced down the Romulans in ‘Enterprise Incident’, dared the Klingons to take on the Enterprise in ‘Friday’s Child’ and risked his career to refuse Ambassador Fox’s order in ‘A Taste of Armageddon’.

The more I hear about Scotty being the “comic relief” in this picture, the more it reinforces my reservations about the entire project.

70. Andros - November 13, 2008

Isn’t funny how any article without a picture of the Enterprise becomes surprisingly optimistic?

71. That Guy - November 13, 2008

Time-Line wise….I’d like to know how they’ll explain Chekov actually meeting Pike.
He was young when he first came on board yet he somehow is old enough to have
meet Captain Pike at least 12 years earlier? Wasn’t it 12 years that Spock served under
Pike? Yes….the story involves time travel but does that mean the entire crew? Guess so.
Too bad that JJ couldn’t go back and fix these loopholes. And redress some of the ships
sets too. Everything on the bridge – flat and glassy. How hard was that to think up?

72. CmdrR - November 13, 2008

Ich bin ein Trekker.

Sorry, had to.

73. Mark Welborn - November 13, 2008

@17

“You will find a reference to a certain infamous android from the last Trek film in that picture.”

OK, I give up. What IS the reference here?

74. fred - November 13, 2008

Somebody is playing fast and loose with history and it ain’t Nero or Spock.

Clever way of dispensing with the real history, and getting all the crew together much earlier. I suppose all those years of Spock being with Pike are now erased and Kirk gets command much earlier than before,
at 20-something. Chekov should be a kid here in junior high.

Even with a revised timeline, this is all messed up.

75. Paulaner - November 13, 2008

#54 “So everything we saw so far, every episode of TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, every movie is flushed down the toilet by this film? Great concept!”

Flushed down? Why do you say so? TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager and every movie are still on dvd. So, just because Dark Knight is good, Burton’s Batman is not watchable anymore? I love both.

76. Admiral_Bumblebee - November 13, 2008

#75
By “flushed down the toilet” I mean that it never happened in the Star Trek timeline. Sure they are still out there on DVD etc. but in the Star Trek universe those stories all never happened.

77. Paulaner - November 13, 2008

#74 “Clever way of dispensing with the real history, and getting all the crew together much earlier.”

Fact is, respecting canon it would have been impossible to have this kind of “crew getting together” thing. So a writer decides that having an epic story like this is more important than canon. So canon is stretched a bit. It regularly happens in the entertainment industry. Canon has to serve fun, not the other way round.

78. New Horizon - November 13, 2008

- 66. trekkerguy –

Because the idea in the Trek universe is that the human race has grown beyond all that nonsense of commercialism, and learned to live ‘for’ humanity..instead of being forced to live for a paycheck.

That so called ‘realism and relatability’ that you speak of undermines the Trek universe. It used to drive me crazy in DS9 that everyone saw around swilling coffee and rachtachino’s, or whatever it was Worf drank.

I don’t want our present superimposed over a glossy future background, I want to see some imagination and forward thinking. If humans in the future are still doing the same garbage we do today, there isn’t much hope.

79. Paulaner - November 13, 2008

#76 “in the Star Trek universe those stories all never happened.”

This is quite an academic and abstract way of thinking. Stories happen every time we watch and believe in them :)

80. thebiggfrogg - November 13, 2008

Yeah, that is Trek philosophy–Don’t like product placement? Then get out of America. Phfft! The American ideal, which is also at the heart of Trek, includes the freedom of dissent and to have free speech to express your opinions. And, no, not all of us like hypercapitalism infringing on every aspect of our lives! I don’t want to see Captain Kirk lift up his arm and see a Degree antiperspirant advertisement on the arm pit of his shirt. Or the Trek delta logo turn into an Apple (despite the fact I’m an avid Mac user). I’ll pay a few extra bucks for an ad free Trek if need be. This is supposed to the 23rd century for godsakes! I don’t want to get be dragged back to the 21st because some stupid Exxon logo is hogging 1/4 of the screen as the USS AT&TPrise blasts off into space looking for bold new places to drill for oil and sell McDonald’s Happy Meals. Somehow I don’t think that this was the vision of Roddenberry and the other creators when they created this idealistic “enterprise” lo those 40 years ago.

81. Snowy - November 13, 2008

This is, what, the third or fourth day in a row now that all new and exciting details have emerged about the film…I don’t think my heart can take anymore excitement…but don’t stop now, Please keep it coming!

82. Paulaner - November 13, 2008

#80

Product placement is on every big movie production. Watch carefully, you see it *everywhere*. We can talk philosophy all day long but the entertainment industry is based on money. Back in the 60s, product placement was not so widely used and accepted. I don’t think that Roddenberry would have refused some more money.

83. falcon - November 13, 2008

#36 – I like your thinking. It makes sense that, even if Romulus and Vulcan are not totally reunified, there would be factions within the Romulan society that would be against it. And if one had the technology to go back in time and change things so that such a thing was impossible, so much the better.

Now, for my take: Yes, this is an alternate universe. Somehow, Nero screwed up something along the way (the “bizarre storm” in Iowa?), indicating he’s not real good at this time travel stuff. Then he tries to blow up the Kelvin, but JT’s dad saves the day (a Kirkian tradition?) and Kirk’s mom and unborn son at the same time (but we suspect he meets his fate aboard the Kelvin in the process). So, that’s another swing and a miss for Nero. So he figures he’ll blow up Vulcan, and Star Fleet will be no match for him because he’s frakked things up so badly already.

I smell some elements of “Back To The Future II” in this one – where Doc and Marty go forward in time to keep Marty’s son from committing a crime, then the sports almanac falls into Biff’s hands, they go back in time, things are all different, they go back further in time to keep it from happening, etc. This could become a Gordian knot of immense proportions if one is allowed to think about it too much. But, presumably, all ends well in the end – albeit severely altered (which begs the question, which future is Spock going back to when he’s finished?)

And I have no problem with the updated sets, costumes, and ships – after all, it is the 21st Century. With all this talk about “change” pre- and post-election, I think it’s fitting we revisit the final frontier, and do some fresh extrapolation from today’s tech. For example: my cell phone can run rings around a TOS communicator. Why not give it enhanced capabilities? What would be cool and cutting edge two hundred years from now? There’s still a lot of tech out there to be developed (transporters, warp drive, etc.).

I’m reserving final judgment until the movie is actually released, but everything I read and see about it gives me hope that it will be a strong story, with strong (and relatable) characters, and killer SFX. Translation: boffo box-office, possibly the highest grossing Trek movie of all time (and one of the top 20 or so films in general).

84. 750 Mang - November 13, 2008

I can think of a product that they should have thought about placing in the new movie: Real Star Trek.

85. Alex Rosenzweig - November 13, 2008

#4 – “Is this for certain an alternate timeline? If it was would al the canon people be happy?”

Umm… From where I sit, the production design changes sound pretty cool, no real issues there from what I’m reading. But if they can’t preserve the basic continuity, and have to turn it all into an alternate timeline going forward, then no, I will not be happy.

I don’t see why we couldn’t just acknowledge that it’s a major motion picture made 4 decades later, and obviously they’re going to come at the production a little differently, and then just get a Star Trek story, without all the alternate universe stuff. But that’s just me, I guess. :/

86. thebiggfrogg - November 13, 2008

I will grant you that money is the bottom line of the movie industry, but there are also points where you need to draw lines. It has gone too far. There are other values in life besides money and I think much of Trek was alluding to this. Hell, as for the big R, he didn’t even have money in the 24th century (a bit problematic, because he didn’t have an answer for its substitute). So seeing Picard shaving with a big ol’ cannister of Foamy in TNG would have been a little hard to picture. We have all become just a little too money obsessed (like the guy from the past in the TNG ep who is asking Picard about his stock portfolio ten minutes after being unthawed). This obsession obviously has gotten us in a little bit of trouble these days. But I will stop here so this doesn’t veer too deep into politics and looses its tenuous connection to Trek and the upcoming movie.

87. 750 Mang - November 13, 2008

#86

“From where I sit, the production design changes sound pretty cool, no real issues there from what I’m reading. But if they can’t preserve the basic continuity, and have to turn it all into an alternate timeline going forward, then no, I will not be happy.”

Right on.

88. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

64- Yes, but James, what makes these fields so “special” that they also would not be pulled in by the intense gravity of a black hole? Are they anti-gravitational somehow, and could that even work against the monstrous gravitational pull of such a phenomenon?

I’m sorry, but it currently isn’t make sense to me, and seems more an element of science fantasy than science fiction.

If you can explain what makes them “special” so that they are resistant to the intense gravity of a black hole, I am willing to listen. I’m afraid I didn’t quite follow your explanation at your earlier post.

Thanks! BC

89. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

Sorry, my post #88 should read “doesn’t make sense” or isn’t making sense.”

90. Duncan MacLeod - November 13, 2008

17. Kerr Avon – November 13, 2008

Slightly off-topic: Amongst the pictures/screen captures for the new film, have any of you looked at that picture of Spock standing in front of a viewscreen/porthole closely? You will find a reference to a certain infamous android from the last Trek film in that picture.

Kerr,

Are you referring to the number in the upper right? I cant tell if its “B4″ obviously what you are reffering to or “84” the Federation Font is a little blurry.

91. Admiral_Bumblebee - November 13, 2008

What I don’t get: Bringing back old Kirk from the dead would be a way to complicated story to tell and would overstrain Joe Average. But alternate universes etc. are ok? Come on!

92. Blowback - November 13, 2008

91. Admiral_Bumblebee

“What I don’t get: Bringing back old Kirk from the dead would be a way to complicated story to tell and would overstrain Joe Average. But alternate universes etc. are ok? Come on!”

In a word…. Yes.

People who are unfamiliar with Trek “canon” are not going to care that Kirk/Spock/Scotty/etc. said “blah blah blah” in an episode that was aired 40 years ago before Trek evolved into a serious franchise and enjoy this as a thrilling movie.

People who are familiar with Trek “canon” will already get the implications of an alternate timeline and enjoy this as a thrilling movie.

93. Admiral_Bumblebee - November 13, 2008

#92
I didn’t mean the fact that it may be set in an alternate timeline. I meant that it may be equally complicated to explain a resurrected Kirk as it is to explain a story that revolves around time travelling, changing things in the past with consequences in the future, forming alternate timelines…

94. Weerd1 - November 13, 2008

OK- I am one of the “canonistas” but admit I will see the film even though finding out the majority of it takes place in a new timeline drains a lot of my enthusiasm (maybe it all gets reset in the end… though that would negate the first two hours of the movie). There is something I really want to help both sides out here with though, OK? I know I am going to sound like a jerk but I really want everyone to remember:

cannon – a large barreled gun used as an indirect fire weapon

canon – a general law, rule, or principle by which something is judged.

I can take different viewpoints on Star Trek, but all these extra ‘N’s are killing me.

95. thebiggfrogg - November 13, 2008

So Weerd, let me see if I have this correct. Are you saying you are a purist regarding Star Trek cannon? ; )

96. thebiggfrogg - November 13, 2008

Boom!
I’m da’ boom king (lovin’ Trek canon!)

97. Admiral_Bumblebee - November 13, 2008

If they have to take some liberties with canon to tell a great story, then so be it. As long as those are not major inconsistencies. We all have seen Spock serving under Pike on the Enterprise, it has been said that he served for several years.
But if the maiden voyage of the Enterprise would be the rescue mission to Vulcan with Kirk getting command of the ship afterwards this would be too big a violation of canon for me. Or if Pike would die at the end, as we have seen him in his chair years later…
I don’t mind Chekov being aboard the ship as long as he isn’t higher in rank than Kirk. I don’t mind that the Enterprise looks different (although I don’t like the new design that much) or that the interior is different. This is to modernize the series. I am fine with that.
But some things should stay consistent with established canon.

98. harris250 - November 13, 2008

#’s 83/36
Good question. What future is Spok going back to? Maybe Spok and Nero are locked in some battle for the hearts and minds of the Romulans, but if that’s the case why not just assassinate Spok in whatever future they live in?
SOME QUESTIONS: Is Nero from the present or future? What is the Nature of the “storm”? Did Kirk see this storm in Iowa or was it a story related to him? When Spok sees Scotty his reaction may be described as surprise: discuss.
I believe this to be an alternate time line story, but if cannon is restored by the end of the movie, Trekkers will be happy but new comers will be left out

99. kirk's corvette/hubertis bigend/belligerence confirmed/pock speard, etc. - November 13, 2008

word out: i’m an original fan, saw the first ep with papasan (instead of laugh-in) and everything since. call me an intellect romantic, but not very nerdy. always kept myself a little in the closet, so i could, you know, have sex and stuff in my teens. as i reached my forties i couldn’t appreciate the new stuff much, but never missed an episode of anything, never missed a film. sometimes this was painful, and had certainly become rote.

and i adore TOS. those were naive times, and these are jaded and cynical times. this site has always been a sort of bridge between them for me.

i really understand the hyperfans who seem outraged by the new film and what it seems to represent. but i also understand crackheads and the mentally challenged. i also understand lonely brats and arrogant bullies. i try not to hang out with any of them.

i’ve been hanging and posting at TM since the beginning, and with the exception of dennis bailey, the fun and objectivity has been lost lately. hyperfans are cute and nerdy but the arrogance is over the top. can’t take it any more.

thanks to anthony for hosting, thanks to JJ and crew for daring to do what needed done so very much.
but, the idiot quotient wins the day…
so
bye.

100. Jay El Jay - November 13, 2008

Yesterday, i was annoyed, i felt that JJ and Co had lied to us about violating canon and i was ready to forgo the cinema and catch it on DVD. After 24 hours of thinking and reading more threads, ive changed my mind, and if you bear with me, ill explain why…

The Enterprise Design: At first I was very angry with this, it looked too modern and not the E we all know and love, but then i thought, wait a minute, before every mission ships are upgraded and refitted (this has been shown in countless episodes and films) So it is my opinion that this new ship design is just the first design of this ship and that the TOS and TMP models are just redesigned and refitted models of this same ship, it makes alot of sense and its canon.

The Ship Interior: As explained above, the interior of the new E will have probably been refitted for TOS and then for TMP. I think its intriging that the description of the engineering section is that it looks like an ENT style engineering section, surely this is just showing the evolution of the ship and fitting in well with canon? The transporter room is described as being very TOS, which is great and im sure this would have also been refitted.

The Ship in general is an easy pill to swallow as Ship design in Star Trek frquently changes, is it canon for ships to be redesigned and refitted and im sure you’ll all agree that the E in TOS looks nothing like the E in TMP but its the same ship…

Canon: This was a real biggie with me and so far im 50/50 on it. We were promised repeatedly that this film follows canon and its a prequal and not a reboot. This is my explination of the canon issues in this movie so far, be patient…

Ship: Explained to death above

Uniforms: Ok they dont look like the uniforms from “The Cage” however they still look like star trek uniforms and as mentioned above the uniforms worn on the Kelvin sound more like Cage era uniforms – so it is a possiblity that the uniforms went through a prolonged period of adjustment, if you watch Generations some of the crew are wearing the series uniforms, other are wearing the new jumpsuits.

The Crew and that darn Pikey!: The crew in my opinion must have met in the academy and there is no evidence to contradict this, there is no evidence to contradict that Checkov worked on the E (prehaps after the Nero incedent he was assigned elsewhere until he came back onboard for the 5 year mission) this is all sound canon IMO. Pike is the only problem i have so far with this movie a) hes old and b) he helps to develop Kirk, but Kirk ‘only met him once, when he was promoted to fleet admiral’ [i think thats right, please correct if wrong] so is that really correct?? well it is my opinion that this isnt a real biggie ok pike was younger in “the cage” but we’ll do a Cochrane ignore on that one!! Maybe Pike is promoted to Fleet Admiral at the end of this movie (or 2nd movie) but the events of this movie were to be kept classified so when asked if Kirk had met Pike before he eggagerated??? [Pike could have been demoted before ‘The Cage’] This all could also be canon…

The Romulans: Another 50/50 thing was of course the Romulans being the baddies, as surely this would mess with BOT?? well… maybe it wouldnt. Ok its explained that the Romulans have never been seen and that they are mysterious etc etc, but does Nero count?? Ok he’s a Romulan and he comes in a Romulan ship, but he’s not from the 23rd Century so big deal. I have a theory that because Nero was a future Romulan, he didnt count and this whole mission was kept very hush hush which explains why in BOT there is still the mystery over 23rd Century Rommies and there is that “look” that Kirk gives to Spock on the bridge or vice-verca??? – just an idea… and it does not violate canon.

In general, I believe that Canon could be kept safe in this film and any problems explained away. It could be how ive explained it above, or maybe its just the fact that time travel is involved?? who knows?? All i know is that IMO this event brings our ‘family’ together and shapes the Star Trek we know and love.

Tell me what you think and please correct me if im wrong…

101. Blowback - November 13, 2008

#93

I see what you mean now.

Here’s my thinking and I’ve had this position since they brought Spock back from the dead in ST-III. My biggest beef with resurrecting a dead character is that they come back looking older than when they died. They did a decent job explaining it with Spock and the Genesis planet’s accelerated development but Kirk will come back looking much older and (please forvive me Mr. Shatner) considerably rounder then when he died…

My logical mind understands the challenges but I am never quite able to fully suspend my disbelief and that becomes a distraction. This is also why I am not so distressed about new actors and what may become a reboot of the Trek franchise. I love all of the characters in TOS and want to see a good director take another crack at telling their stories for a new era…

I’ve been with Trek since 1971 but I hope my peers who go back that far will understand my eagerness that this movie succeeds. I am not a blind follower of JJ-Trek but it is my wish that this is a start of something new and refreshing….

102. touchstone35 - November 13, 2008

I wonder when the first bootlegs of the trailer are going to show up on YouTube ?

103. Blowback - November 13, 2008

#100 – Pretty twisted logic there my friend. Feels like you are hammering the proverbial square peg into a round hole with a sledgehammer.

You might be able to deal with it better by accepting that it’s either a reboot or a massive alternate timeline.

104. harris250 - November 13, 2008

#100
agreed, I think if people but more time into trying to figure out the puzzle we would all have a better time. Really this is supposted to me fun and uplifting. I expected more from people than bitching whining and hate. We have the producer, writers and designers willing to discuss this on these pages (thank you AP) and how do we act? Klingons would run…

105. Fred - November 13, 2008

Is it possible, and more than likely, that when Kirk is beamed onboard the Enterprise under Pike’s command, that this is NOT the first voyage. but rather late in Pike’s 13 year stint as Captain? And that Spock has been with him for many years at this point?

I’m thinking it is. Which is how it should be. I could buy that.

106. Blowback - November 13, 2008

#104

1) I doubt anyone involved with JJ’s Trek is surprised by the vehemence on either side.

2) Clearly this is being done now to let fans vent their fury long before the movie arrives

107. Jay El Jay - November 13, 2008

103, i can see why people would think that, however im only offering an explination. I just dont believe from all ive read and seen that Orci of all people would flush 40 years of canon down the toilet. He’s too much of a die hard fan.

108. Wastedbeerz - November 13, 2008

I think this movie will rule just as long as the E’s bussards glow red when lit, and Spock’s time ship isn’t called the “Millennium Vulcan”.

109. harris250 - November 13, 2008

#106
Agreed. I would love to be a fly on the wall in their meetings. They may be having a good laugh, this being he reaction they wanted. What’s the old line…any publicity is good publicity…

110. Jay El Jay - November 13, 2008

105, i like your thinking, i was thinking that too, whats wrong with assuming that this mission is after “The Cage” and at the end of it Pike is promoted and Kirk takes command??? I dont see any holes in that as Kirk has a reason to say “Only met him once when he was promoted” etc…

111. thorsten - November 13, 2008

[108] I forgot to mention that, but yes, the bussards glow red while active.

112. rehabilitated hitch1969© - November 13, 2008

look – its clear now that this movie is going to adhere to canon about as much as first contact did with cochrane. its yes and no. in the general sense, yes… details no. you all need to get your heads around that.

stop trying to create scenarios in your mind that will make this adhere. it is not going to. it looks different, heck the german dude says that star wars came to mind way more than star trek – the trek movies of the 80s are gone. the tng movies are over too.

you are going to recognize elements… but this is not star trek. sir JJ said it himself all along. “not your father’s star trek”. well, some of us actually liked our father’s star trek. i understand that.

this is new star trek – in every aspect. i know thats unsettling for some, it bothers me on some level as well. still i think its going to be OK though… i think roddenberry knew this would happen, i think he would have approved of it. he said as much when he was alive – that in the future people would be doing it better than he did.

113. Spanish Brock - November 13, 2008

#99 – I’m there with you, man.

I was a little kid when TWOK came out, so the movies and TNG were always what Star Trek was to me. I was definitely a closet trek guy (cuz I also liked to get laid). Regardless, Star Trek was always something fun that also happened to be smart (most of the time).

Reading too many of the posts (especially the posts on the new Enterprise – sheesh, brutal), can really get a guy down. I think you should just ignore them. Why should my enjoyment of the movie, my anticipation of THE FIRST NEW STAR TREK FILM in seven years, be screwed with by some guy I’ve never met???

I’ll admit that I am excited – each piece gets me more pumped for the new film. I think its going to be one hell of a show, and I bet that any one vested enough to post on this website is also vested enough to show up opening weekend.

To JJ, Bob Orci and the crew – don’t let anything said on here get your goat (not that it has or would). So far, looks like you guys have knocked it out of the park. Thanks for taking this on! You’ve made a lot of fans really happy.

Peace.

114. Wastedbeerz - November 13, 2008

(111) then all is as it should be.

115. AdamTrek - November 13, 2008

#80 thebiggfrogg

I was harsh to make a point. To me, in a positive and creative vision of the future, I can imagine a few companies that are around today to be in existence a couple hundred years from now. Even so, storywise, the product could be a simulation or a replica, such as the Vette scene. A real Vette 200+ years from now in existence? Barring a global nuclear holocaust, I can definitely see it happening. Some car collectors today have old cars that are in better condition than when they came off the assembly line. And the aftermarket parts and care products that are offered today will only keep on getting better and more scientifically advanced allowing the owner to actually USE their vehicle instead of only staring at it in a hermitically sealed clean room garage for the rest of their lives. The passion of some folks and their machinery to get us from Point A to B is ingrained in American society and most free democracies, even some not so free. The automobile is a symbol and stands for the ultimate independence and freedom that a society can offer. It makes sense for a character with such traits as Jim Kirk, although he apparently destroys the car. Although we know in later years he is a bit of an antique collector.

116. Wastedbeerz - November 13, 2008

#99 & #113… no need to be closet Trekkers… just find the hot girls that are into Trek and still get laid… THEY EXIST AND I’VE HAD THEM, I TELL YOU!!!

-A Trekker out in the open, and damned proud of it!!!

117. Blowback - November 13, 2008

#107 – Agreed. I don’t mind if they bend or break a few “rules” but there is a point where it will go too far.

For instance I can live with Kirk and Pike having a deeper history that was described in TOS. I think it will serve the franchise well in the long run…

118. Daoud - November 13, 2008

#40, etc.

Simple explanation about meeting Pike. Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain when he was assigned to the NCC-1701 Enterprise project. Now, if a broken-up fight is how Kirk meets Pike, everything actually makes even more sense, in both the original timeline and this one.

Did we ever know Pike’s full rank even in Menagerie? His formal title could have been Fleet Captain, yet, just like a Lt. Commander, you call them by the more substantial title. “Captain”.

#other
Overall… the story makes sense now from the big pieces we’ve been given.

The visuals are still troublesome, but there’s time for ILM and Bad Robot to do some tweaking.

After all, they’ve got until April when the prints have to be delivered….

119. Blowback - November 13, 2008

112. rehabilitated hitch1969©
“look – its clear now that this movie is going to adhere to canon about as much as first contact did with cochrane. its yes and no. in the general sense, yes… details no. you all need to get your heads around that. ”

Wow, I had totally forgottent about that example. Excellent point. It bothered me for a few minutes then I got back into the story. To this day FIRST CONTACT is one of my top three..

120. thorsten - November 13, 2008

[112] Let me be clear here, hitch, the movie did not feel like Star Wars at all… just little things reminded me of certain moments of SW lore.

The Enterprise comes out of warp at Vulcan and runs into a lot of Starfleet trash… check.

Sulu unpacks his Katana, and the blade unfolds click click, and this reminds you of a lightsaber. But the stuff feels totally unique and new… and is still Trek. Very modern, highly fast paced Trek.

121. Regula One - November 13, 2008

Is there any way to time travel to May 2009 or better yet fall ’09 to pick up a blu-ray copy of this movie?

122. thorsten - November 13, 2008

[29] Kerr Avon, it is no military movie. This is not Battlestar Galactica redux. In the scene where Pike talks Kirk to enlist with Starfleet, he explains that they are a peacekeeping force.

123. thorsten - November 13, 2008

[118] Daoud, Pike is obviously training cadets. He tells Kirk the time when the shuttles with the new recruits leave, and he is in charge of them.
Three years later he is Captain of the 1701.

124. Robert - November 13, 2008

I think I’ll go to Europe for the premiere of this film. These reports from the past week seem to come from people who are much more open-minded and excited, and don’t spend time complaining about the proportions of a deflector array. I’d rather sit next to them.

125. Spaceboy - November 13, 2008

Three words for canon people: Get. Over. It.

You probably didn’t like “The Dark Knight” ’cause there were no nipples on the Batsuit and he didn’t dance the Batusi.

“Spock’s Brain” is canon too. Want them to remake that crap?

126. Holger - November 13, 2008

This doesn’t sound so bad.

127. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#76—-“By “flushed down the toilet” I mean that it never happened in the Star Trek timeline. Sure they are still out there on DVD etc. but in the Star Trek universe those stories all never happened.”

Sure they did. Everything you mentioned has to happen exactly as it did before in order to progress the story to the point where Nero and his cohorts decide to take action to alter the past. Therefore, every bit of canon with which we are all so familiar is inherently relevant to the story at hand.

Everything you know happened in another timeline from the one we are hearing about. But it still happened.

Bad Robot is utilizing ‘canon’ (the very existence and possibility of alternate timelines being created by altering the past is in itself canon) to explain why events are unfolding somewhat differently due to the timeline interference (attack upon the USS Kelvin some 30+ years before TOS,etc.).

This meshes well with what Bob Orci has told us all along:

“Anything which appears to violate canon will have a canon explanation”.

As long as the “changes” are a result of the interference, there can be no canon violations. Like it or not, Orci and Kurtzman have handed JJ Abrams the ultimate (built-in) canon loophole.

We have been told for more than 40 years that this could happen in episodes like, “Tommorow is Yesterday”, “COTEOF”, “Assignment: Earth”, TAS- “Yesteryear”, TNG-“Yesterday’s Enterprise, etc.

It could be that Nimoy’s Spock is, in the end, largely successful in setting things right. Perhaps that is the “final solution” to which Orci has referred to previously.

Or, it could be that he is only partially successful, and most of the 5 year mission plays out as it did before, with the only changes remaining being to the bits of backstory in “WNMHGB”, “Obsession”, “The Conscience Of The King”, Court-Martial”, and “The Menagerie”.

Of course, it could be that things are very uncertain in the end. This is what seems to seperate this endeavor from the lackluster Lucas Prequel series with SW. We don’t actually know how the story ends. There remains the potential for dramatic jeopardy for both the characters we love and for the timelines.

128. sean - November 13, 2008

#88

Brett, my friend, it’s a SciFI movie. Hardly the first time Trek has blended fiction with fantasy. Guess what? Transporters are impossible according to every law of physics as we currently understand them. But, just as some scientists are willing to allow for the possibility that one day we may discover some kind of shortcut for making something similar work, I’m sure we could allow for some sort of future tech that allows Romulans to control black holes. I don’t think it’s anything worth getting hung up on. Otherwise, half the science depicted in Star Trek would make it unwatchable! ;)

129. Edwin - November 13, 2008

# 10: JJ Abrams might just become the new Steven Spielberg or George Lucas or Christopher Nolan – or all three!

Yeah, I’m thinking more that he might become the new Tim Burton in a Planet of the Apes kind of way….

130. Ricci - November 13, 2008

All this movie is going to be is another Godzilla movie. We all saw how that turned out. The original,(rubber suit and all) made 30 movies, While the reboot of Godzilla made 1 (count them) 1 movie. It was a good movie. Great movie. But it wasnt Godzilla so it died a miserable death as it deserved. I do hope It is good. I loved Star Trek. JJ abrams is spitting on it. James Cawley should have been in charge. Oh well We will see,

131. sean - November 13, 2008

I could be wrong, of course, but my prediction is this will wipe the floor with those lazy Lucas prequels. After all, JJ would really have to phone it in to make this *that* bad. Not that it couldn’t happen, but I haven’t seen him do that in any project thus far, whether individuals liked them or not. He seems to give it his all no matter what the medium.

132. dalek - November 13, 2008

Thanks for that Thorsten, great report :) Very encouraging!

#48 Admiral Bumblebee. I have long advocated the return of Shatner as Kirk. It would have been a dream scenario for me, for this movie.

However, from the plot they have chosen I can understand WHY Shatner’s character couldn’t appear in the BULK of the movie….

Consider Kirk is killed in the past by Nero. There’s no Kirk in the future to go back to stop this. Old Spock has either seen the changes in time (by being protected by this ala First Contact by being in the thick of the action), or he went back before any changes took place with Nero.

Either way, Kirk was dead on Verdian III, or he died at Nero’s hands back in time, so there was no Kirk from the future to go back with Spock.

The whole of the bulk of the movie, is Nimoy Spock and Young Kirk and crew securing the future, and thus the Federation, Vulcan, and Kirk’s continued existence. In other words, if Spock doesn’t intervene, there would never be a future Kirk to come to back in time.

Now, I see if the scene they wrote for Shatner would come in play, if at the end of the movie, Older Kirk is a product of the changed timeline and either evaded his death with future knowledge (or Veridian III never happened because of the new timeline, the Ent B was never there to stop Soran from entering the Nexus, he’s in there and no Generations took place). As an example.

Now given this they have little excuse why he couldn’t appear at the end. Bottom line tho, JJ Abrams is not a fan like we are, he doesn’t hold the same feelings towards Kirk, and indeed Shatner as Kirk as we do (and how could he, he’s only been passioante about Trek in a big capacity, according to himself, since he started the movie). Orci seemed to think the scene worked and fit in the movie.

JJ called the shot, and said no. I take that as he didn’t want Shatner, or Paramount didn’t want Shatner. All the speil about “They were the same fans who demanded it followed canon” wasn’t even true. I didn’t read a single message that said “bring back kirk but make it canon” It was just excuses. The majority of people who wanted Shatner in the film, recognised you can still have canon and bring the character back. The Return for example, where Shatner and the Reeves Stevens accomplished this.

“He didn’t do cameos” is nonsense. This is a business and you have to make an offer. It’s a $150 million movie, I’m sure Shatner would have walked over broken glass naked if the money was right and the scene was significant enough. Nothing could be more significant, cameo or otherwise, that showed Captain Kirk alive and well in the future (if indeed that was the scene). Nothing for this fan anyway :)

As I’ve said before tho, Shatner isn’t necessary to keep Kirk alive and avoid his horrible fate. They can do it with Pine aged (second best, but at least its something) or a line of dialogue stating that this timeline and everyone’s fates are now different. This won’t be the case if there’s a big stinking reset button tho and everything is as it was.

In the end I think what JJ saw as contrived, most fans would feel was emotionaly satisfying and have been waiting 15 years for. He might blame us for asking for something contradictory (I never did, and never saw someone else who did), or Shatner for his “cameos” comment (months before they still were saying it was still possible), but I blame his judgement as a non-fan, and his inability to talk with Shatner directly.

133. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#129—-‘Planet Of The Apes’ (the Burton version) didn’t get these kinds of early reviews from everyone the limited footage has been shown to. While it doesn’t guarantee that the whole finished product will be received as well, it certainly sounds promising.

I suppose that, if you set your expectation so low, you can hardly be disappointed. Good luck with that attitude.

134. Jim Smith - November 13, 2008

100 –

> but Kirk ‘only met him once, when he was promoted to fleet admiral’ [i think > thats right, please correct if wrong] so is that really correct??

People keep saying this – Kirk does not say “once” in that scene. He says that “I met him when he was promoted to Fleet Captain, Spock served with him for a number of years”.

It may very well be that Kirk new Pike well (in ‘The Menagerie’ he knows him well enough to call him ‘Chris’ and ask him for favours) but that the first time he met him was when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain.

And we don’t, canonically, know when that was. All we have in suppositions.

I’m looking forward to this movie, myself. I think the writers are playing interesting games in the margins of the possible.

135. sean - November 13, 2008

#130

With all respect, if James had been in charge we wouldn’t be getting any movies. No offense intended toward Mr Cawley, but like many fans here, he is too tied into the strictures of what’s come before (though he’s obviously shown an admirable open-mindedness in terms of this reinterpretation). For Trek to survive, it HAS to be reinvented for a new generation. You don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, but you do have to find a new way to tell the story. This project will fail or succeed on its own merits, but if any of us really believe Trek was going to continue as it has for so many years or as a completely faithful replication of TOS, we were kidding ourselves.

Godzilla went down because they turned it into a comedic romp. Much as I love the guy, Matthew Broderick shouldn’t have been anywhere near that story. It also failed because Roland Emmerich seemed to think ‘summer movie’ meant ‘empty-headed crap with a 6th grade sense of humor’.

136. trekmaster - November 13, 2008

@Anthony
Where’s the Nemesis-Trailer!?

137. OneBuckFilms - November 13, 2008

Just a quick opinion on Zefram Cochrane’s “incisistencies”.

In TOS, when we met Cochrane, he was young, but was an old man when the Companion found him.

This tells me that he could so EASILY be older when he created Warp Drive.

Also, being older, it is more plausible that he gained the level of knowledge and expertise to figure out some very complex physics.

Cochrane’s two portrayals fit.

138. dalek - November 13, 2008

#134 i think the better explanation, other than grasping at straws to desperately excuse the continuity clash is this:

This is a revised timeline and because Kirk Snr is killed and not there to be a father to Kirk, Pike who served with Kirk Snr, feels somewhat obligated to be there for Kirk, mentoring him like a father figure.

This didn’t happen in the original timeline which has that accurate quote from Kirk, who only met Pike once, at that time.

New timeline, new beginnings.

139. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#138—-The post in #134 is correct. The line from “The Menagerie” is this:

“I met him when he was promoted to Fleet Captain”.

That does not indicate how many times he met him (I met my wife in a restaurant, but that doesn’t mean it was the last time). However, the rest of your post is correct.

The fact that Pike and Kirk have a very different relationship this time around is likely due to the fact that something was changed after the Romulan attack on the USS Kelvin 4 days before Kirk is born.

140. Jim Smith - November 13, 2008

138 – if it’s a revised timeline in the movie, it’s a revised timeline. If it isn’t, it isn’t, I’m horribly offended or ecstatically happy either way.

I’m just saying there’s more wriggle room than some keep insisting, even within the confines of (old?) canon. We have literally no idea how Bones and Kirk met, for example. It’s not even hinted at. We simply know they are friends.

> This didn’t happen in the original timeline which has that accurate quote
> from Kirk, who only met Pike once, at that time.

I don’t think that quote does mean he met him once. Kirk’s response doesn’t demand a single meeting, it merely describes a circumstance related to the first – and as I said, their relationship in the episode, such as it is, seems to be quite strong, though not as strong as Pike and Spock’s.

There’s a long-running fan assumption of a single meeting but it isn’t necessarily so, even ignoring discussion of the new movie and solely looking at what actually happens in “The Menagerie”. (which I love.)

141. sean - November 13, 2008

#132

There are many compromises between directors & writers while making a movie. Sometimes, the writers have to push for something they believe in, and sometimes directors have to trim storylines for their vision to work. These compromises are made every single day in Hollywood. It’s silly for any of us to assume that the effort behind including or not including Bill into this movie was anything other than what’s been stated.

Bill *DID* say he didn’t do cameos. Bill *DID* say he was critical of the idea of resurrecting Kirk in his interview with Craig Furgeson. Bill *DID* agree to off his character in Generations. These are all facts that I believe led to his eventually being left out. That, and the fact that the story Orci & co came up with was about Spock as the central focus, not Kirk. So to explain Kirk being alive and well despite his highly publicised death in Generations, they’d have needed to seriously sideline the story they’d already written to resolve that problem. Why do that if the story you have works?

Bill did bring Kirk back in ‘The Return’, but if some fans found Spock’s return a stretch in TSFS, then they surely would have laughed ‘The Return’ storyline right off the screen (I know I would have). It’s a massively contrived and convenient solution with so many wink-wink moments I nearly gagged reading it. And that’s okay for a book that’s essentially just for fans. It’s not okay for a 150 million dollar epic that’s striving to revive a franchise that’s gone beyond life support.

142. Jim Smith - November 13, 2008

There should be a ‘not’ in my last post, before ‘horribly’. i.e, I’m not massively bothered which it is.

143. dalek - November 13, 2008

#140 Yes that is possible. But I’d bet two bottles of Tranya, that the original writer at the time meant “the once” :) But the change in timeline has meant this didn’t happen like this.

Just like McCoy meant that First Contact was a disaster with the Klingons in “Private Little War” and Earth discovering a Klingon due to the time war in Enterprise, also altered this.

144. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#141—I agree 100%.

145. Weerd1 - November 13, 2008

thebiggfrogg says, “So Weerd, let me see if I have this correct. Are you saying you are a purist regarding Star Trek cannon? ; )”

Ouch dude. Ouch.

Keep in mind, if they keep making changes we Canonistas may have to fire up the Canon Cannon!

That’s when we shoot highlighted TOS scripts at people at high velocity.

146. mikey_pikey (Ireland) - November 13, 2008

Great descriptions up guys, getting even more psyched now but have to remind myself its still about 6 months away, from whats been described, star trek is finally getting the epic treatment on the silver screen it’s been lacking since, well since it began :=)) ( thats not including the first 30 mins of TMP btw ) Ah its an exciting time to be a trek fan again, its been a lonnnng time.

147. Greg2600 - November 13, 2008

Old Kirk could have easily been fit into the time-line maneuvering. I proposed early on to have Old Spock mind meld with Young Kirk, and implant a subconscious/hidden memory that allows him to survive on Veridian III. Then Old Kirk shows up and bails Spock out.

As for Shatner, honestly, with his ego, I can’t imagine he would turn down even a cameo. Now, that doesn’t mean he shows up for 90 seconds and says hi there and bye now. The scene Orci/Kurtzman wrote would probably be considered something more than a cameo. But it was never offered. Again, I like J.J., he’s an extremely generous person, and has been very open to the fans. However, it seems none of these guys had any forehand knowledge of the aggravation many fans have had with Paramount over the past 15 years.

148. Jim Smith - November 13, 2008

143 – I’m not sure what the original writer meant and as he’s dead, we can’t ask him. : (

But in adding to shared universes we have to build on the cracks in the possible, I think.

Which is not to say you’re wrong about this being a new universe. You may very well be right.

Time will tell.

149. Jim Smith - November 13, 2008

147 – Well lets hope this movie is a success, and we get Shatner in the sequel. That’s what I’m holding out for now, I have to say.

150. dalek - November 13, 2008

#141 What’s so contrived about a timeline where Kirk didn’t die when the whole movie is about an altered timeline? Mr Orci said when asked he didn’t feel the scene was contrived.

And do you honestly believe Old Spock isn’t going to even hint that he is seeing people again, that once died many many years ago?

Yes Bill agreed to kill off the character, but he was the first person to try and rectify that mistake. He pitched Kirk’s return to Rick Berman immediately after Generations. Shatner has since tried to bring back Kirk many times and shot down each time. Mainly by Berman, but Sherry Lansing was always dead against the idea when she was in charge of Paramount.

151. sean - November 13, 2008

#147

I never understood this whole ‘it’s Paramount’s fault’ line of thought. Did they kidnap Shatner, handcuff him & toss him in the trunk, then hold a gun to his head and tell him to kill his character?

152. Jim Smith - November 13, 2008

151 – I believe Mr Shatner has implied that if he hadn’t done GENERATIONS then Kirk would have been referred to as being dead by the time of TNG in the film they’d have made anyway. IIRC.

Gene R always said he thought Kirk was dead by the time of TNG, again IIRC.

Me, I don’t buy that – legends don’t die : )

153. thorsten - November 13, 2008

Spock Prime appears just for a short time in the movie, after QuintoSpock got rid of Kirk on the Ice Planet… as soon as they meet Scotty he and PineKirk say their farewells. Important is the way how he insists that Kirk can never tell his younger self about the situation. So Kirk will never tell this to his friend, amazing.

Regarding Godzilla, well, I saw JJ yesterday, being as excited as everybody else about the footage. He is really into this movie, and told us how he became a fan during the making and how much he loves Kirk and Spock now. He was not joking.

My fellow countryman Roland Emmerich, called “das Spielbergle” over here (Tiny Spielberg, you gessed it) is a joke.

154. sean - November 13, 2008

#150

Did you read the book? It is, quite literally, the definition of contrived. I didn’t say the concept of bringing the character back was itself necessarily contrived (though such attempts usually are), but the storyline of “The Return” is so forced in its attempt to tie every coincidental storyline from TOS & TNG that I can’t view it any other way.

Romulans make an alliance with the Borg so the great-grandaughter of the commander in BOT can take her revenge on Kirk, so they find some ancient technology that even the Borg don’t understand to somehow revive Kirk so they can brainwash him into killing Picard because the Borg have become so petty and weak that they’re reduced to seeking revenge via a third party that’s supposedly far less advanced than they are? Kirk is just so fabulous he outwits every other character and somehow comes up with the connection that V’ger was created by the Borg and then manages to destroy the Borg homeworld single-handedly by literally – and I mean, could they have been less transparent about what they were doing with this particular solution – throwing a switch. A SWITCH. A switch that in the subsequent book activates a magic beam that takes Kirk to some far off world with Borg flower children who heal him and send him off on his merry way where he seems to encounter every other Star Trek character, ever.

No, by all means, clearly that isn’t contrived at all. ;)

155. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

I don’t think Shatner is the only one in this project with an ego problem. Show business is an ego-driven business. A lot of it can be “we want to keep this OUR Trek” on the part of Abrams and Co.

Obviously, if it’s a time-travel story, they could have worked Shatner in somehow. It’s a sci-fi no-brainer, and it wouldn’t have to have been as forced or “fanboyish” as they claim.

I for one don’t think Abrams and Co. have been completely honest with us fans on this account. They want a reboot. They like Nimoy. They don’t like Shatner. They don’t want him in. It’s their loss. Sadly, for a lot of us fans, it’s ours too.

That’s my opinion. Like it or don’t.

156. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

sigh….

157. cpelc - November 13, 2008

I almost wish that anthony would just set this site up with news posts but not ability to comment until the movie comes out.

that way everyone still gets the info…but not the comment garbage.

the stories aren’t about them…so why do they try to make them so they are?

158. sean - November 13, 2008

#155

Why must it be about ego for either of them? Maybe, just maybe, the answer is: IT.JUST.DIDNT.WORK.IN.THE.STORY. Is that at least *possible*?

159. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

157 – Or how about just don’t read the comments if you don’t like them? Other people like to, but no one says you have to.

160. Jim Smith - November 13, 2008

158 – It’s possible but the thing about a story is, if you’re the one making it up, you can change it..

161. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#160—That’s true, but if changing it doesn’t benefit the story in your eyes (as the director), then why would you do it?

162. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

158 – Sure it’s possible. Just get tired of Shatner always being singled out as the bad guy…

Closettrekker –I could give my own exasperated sighs over it too, but people are entitled to their opinions. You don’t have to read my posts if they wear you out that much, but please quit it with the condescension.

163. Andy Patterson - November 13, 2008

Did they see more than what’s been reported?

RIP Mitch Mitchell

164. cpelc - November 13, 2008

159 – yes we all like to hear you still complain about Shatner not being in the movie…

Oh and good job faking a url so that your name will stand out more…

165. sean - November 13, 2008

#160

But again – and I’m starting to feel like I’m going crazy here – *why* should they change a story that works to fix something someone else (including the actor in question) messed up? I keep hearing these theories where Kirk can be revived with a line of expository dialogue – do you guys really buy that? It took an entire movie to bring Spock back, why do you think the same wouldn’t be necessary for James Effin’ Kirk? I, personally, would not find some throwaway dialogue a satisfactory way to bring back James T. Kirk. Especially since it would have to take something fairly extraordinary to bring him back to life.

166. Trekman - November 13, 2008

ok so i hate to ask, but whats up with chekov being around on enterprises maiden voyage, this seems like it would put him on the enterprise pre-Talos which he clearly was never there for, not only this but isnt he supposed to be quite a bit younger than kirk? so if captan pike is supposed to go on commanding the enterprise with spock for the next few years and also visit Talos IV then how is the crew suddenly fully formed on the ship?

167. The Underpants Monster - November 13, 2008

I’m excited about Pike’s role being so pivotal; I really liked the character in “The Cage/Menagerie.” And very glad to hear that Urban and Pegg did well; those are really key elements.

What was Mrs. Kirk doing on the Kelvin? I thought officers’ families only started coming on board in the TNG era.

168. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#162—My “sigh” was not directed at you personally, but at the the fact that a thread dedicated to something else has once again deteriorated into a Shatner in/out discussion.

The article is about a German review of the 20 minutes of footage shown by Abrams to reporters.

169. Sam Belil - November 13, 2008

Come on guys — is there one person out there who for a second does NOT believe this a COMPLETELY ALTERED TIMELINE!!!
OF COURSE IT IS. All the evidence is THERE and HAS BEEN out there!!!!
Captain Pike a father-figure to Kirk??? Are you kidding me? Just go back and watch that ONE SCENE alone when Mendenz brings Kirk, Spock and McCoy to see Pike. Guess what my friends, in this movie Pike will never have a chance to get on board that Class-J starship, because I totally believe that he will get killed in this alternate universe — in all likelihood sacrificing himself for this crew!!! Any doubters out there??????

170. ucdom - November 13, 2008

Exlusive footage from german Star Trek!

The ship looks way better than I thought it would. Incredible acting too!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ldFc0nOzODg

171. thorsten - November 13, 2008

[167] Underpants, we only learned about this fact because Pike mentions it to young Jim. Maybe she was in Starfleet, too.

172. sean - November 13, 2008

#170

Star Trek in German is quite possibly the greatest thing I’ve ever seen.

173. t2 - November 13, 2008

all this….before the trailer…6 months to go still, can only imagine the comments to come, say march. Well be so stressed out and be resorting to trek on trek violence. At this rate the whole movie will have been interpreted from start to finish by some fans and well be seeing the movie with such a critical eye that we won’t even enjoy it. For the sake of sanity for some fans this movie should be coming out next month! But we all know we got til may.

174. Jorg Sacul - November 13, 2008

“…Vulcan is reached very quickly and entering orbit shot has a strong reminder of the Millennium Falcon arriving at Alderaan. ”

What, the Enterprise comes out of hyperspace into some sort of meteor shower or asteroid collision? :-)

175. thorsten - November 13, 2008

[174] No, Jorg, just lots of loose kitchen sinks with Star Fleet logos on it…

176. Nick Cook - November 13, 2008

#150.

That’s the best (and funniest, as in funny ’cause it’s painfully true) description I’ve ever seen of The Return. Had I been drinking tea, I’d currently be wiping it off my screen. ;)

177. Nick Cook - November 13, 2008

Argh, sorry, I meant to say Sean, #154. Sorry.

178. trekmaster - November 13, 2008

@#170
LOL – Thx a lot!

179. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#166—-I didn’t get the impression that Chekov is aboard during the maiden voyage of the Enterprise. I think that was meant to suggest that it was Chekov’s first voyage. I could be wrong, however.

The only problem I have with that (potentially) is that Chekov states his age as 22 in the second season of TOS. This may be a case of creative or dramatic license on the part of the writers in order to make Chekov a part of this origin story. Then again, Pike could (in this timeline) remain in command of the Enterprise far later than he did previously. I get the impression that Kirk’s entry into SFA is somehow delayed by effects of the catalyst event that occured 4 days prior to his birth.

However, I think you have to bear in mind that the launch of the Enterprise in the original timeline is 2245, and that is about a dozen years or so after the attack on the USS Kelvin inevitably alters things. Anything post 2233 may not play out as it once did.

As for “The Cage”/”The Menagerie”, there very well may not be any fight on Rigel VII, nor any stop on Talos IV to investigate the disappearance of a ship from 18 years before (although presumably, Vina would still be there amongst the Talosians, since the vessel would have crashed 6 years before the attack by the Romulans).

180. Dr. Image - November 13, 2008

Ok, ok. Sounding good.
See? Mind open- to a point.

And I don’t believe this an altered timeline. The masses wouldn’t get it, and this is a mass-market property.

181. rehabilitated hitch1969© - November 13, 2008

yo, Klaus…

stuff like ,”I saw JJ yesterday, being as excited as everybody else about the footage. He is really into this movie, and told us how he became a fan during the making and how much he loves Kirk and Spock now” is NOT the kind of stuff that we want to hear. Stuff like that makes me wary of Sir JJ, personally.

I wish that in that regard he would just keep is mouth shut.

“I wasnt a fan, but now I am a fan because of MY new movie”

and they wonder why they are getting some of the reactions to the enterprise and canon violations that they are getting…

C’Mon Klaus, help the cause here. Stop talking star wars and using quotes like that, please. they only serve to alienate the already aggravated.

thank you drive thu.

THE WOMEN!!

=h=

182. sean - November 13, 2008

#176

Well I’m sorry, but come on! The Return is one of the greatest examples of fanwankery out there. It’s just unbelievably ridiculous. Ashes of Eden was a great story and provided a solid context for the Kirk character in his last days. I suppose I was seeking that same kind of fulfilling story when I picked up The Return. Oh boy, was I wrong. Every subsequent book became even MORE outlandish, which I didn’t even think was possible.

183. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#180—I don’t think there is much “to get” about the notion that changing the past would potentially change the future. That is pretty much a ‘common sense’ conclusion.

Furthermore, are ‘the masses’ concerned about continuity with a series of television shows and movies they do not watch?

Not likely, IMO.

The canon explanations for the different ways things may unfold is for the established fans to be able to reconcile it (if they need to). Remember, this movie is supposed to be for fans of movies, as well as being something that established fans can appreciate.

184. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

Fanwankery….I like that….Good word.

185. Greg2600 - November 13, 2008

sean – The push to include Shatner was not based on the obsessed need to un-kill the character. The push was because, with both in their late 70’s, this was probably the last chance to see Shatner and Nimoy together in a Star Trek story. This was my argument all along. It seemed almost foolish to not try to write something with both of them involved. For J.J. to use “canon” as an excuse not to include Bill, when its clear he’s throwing a lot of it out the window in this film (thought I don’t chastise him for that), is really lame. The only excuse is simply, his character didn’t fit in the story well enough, whether Kirk is dead, alive, whatever. Only recently has he begun to say that, but his “The only reason Shatner is not in the movie is because his character died” was hypocritical.

186. James - November 13, 2008

@88:

Hmm… I was just being canonical rather than scientific! ;-)

However, to answer your query, I believe it was referred to in the DS9 episode ‘Visionary’, where O’Brien jumps back and forth through time. The jumps are caused by the variations in the graviton field in a quantum singularity-driven engine belonging to a cloaked Romulan Warbird orbiting the station.

Gravitons are particles of gravity, like photons are particles of light. I don’t understand all of the quantum physics behind it (check it on Wikipedia for further details), but it does seem theoretically possible to generate a gravitational field strong enough to restrain a quantum singularity. Depending on the magnitude of the black hole, this could probably be done using a nuclear fusion reaction.

Varying the strength of that field would produce gravitational waves from the quantum singularity, as it would effectively be constantly moving out of a state of equilibrium. These gravitational waves could then, theoretically, be used to transfer the energy into a useable form.

Of course, in order to understand this fully, we need to understand quantum gravity, i.e. unify quantum mechanics with general relativity. And nobody’s managed that yet – not even Einstein.

187. sean - November 13, 2008

#181

Hitch, with all respect my man, no one that worked on TOS was a ‘fan’ (after all, it hadn’t been created yet). Meyer wasn’t a fan. Benett wasn’t a fan. Katzenberg wasn’t a fan. Yet all these men were instrumental in reviving Star Trek and giving us some of the best stories with our beloved crew. JJ being a casual fan (one who frequently recounts his experience of watching TMP in awe) is truthfully, nothing to worrry about. That he went from casual to serious fan during this production only reassure my feeling that this guy will do us all right.

188. John from Cincinnati - November 13, 2008

127.

I agree with you, the dramatic jeopardy will be if the timeline gets restore to the more familiar TOS or stays what we see in the movie, essentially re-booting the franchise.

Does anyone know why the Europeans are getting all these nice previews and not the country that created this franchise and made it successful?

189. Pokerface - November 13, 2008

must…. resist… spoilers….

190. Lord Garth, Formerly of Izar - November 13, 2008

DANKE DANKE DANKE mein Deutsche freunde

Also, Please send me some Bavarian beer and the navigation upgrade disks for my Mercedes

191. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#188—According to Paramount, the reasoning is that Star Trek hasn’t nearly been as successful in foreign markets as it has been in the US. Because this is such a huge investment in a film, the studio will be far more dependant upon those markets than ever before.

Bear in mind that just because Europe is getting these previews first, does not mean that the US will not get them. It is also possible that they are testing the reaction in the UK and Germany before deciding what to show in the US.

192. rehabilitated hitch1969© - November 13, 2008

sean, I sort of see what you’re saying…

but harve bennett and nick meyer not only respected canon, they adhered to it strictly. and in the face of having very qualified folks (real fans) out there like JC, the pennsylvania dutch that do farragut, nick c is for cookie… all those dudes, you name them – i think that sir jj should be much more sensitive when making so many changes. changes, which I might add – we’ve been told for 3 years this was going to be a prequel and all the elements would be there. did you see that enterprise, dude? chekov and pike, uhura serving budweisers in iowa with the e being built?

this is a re-boot. same names, same concepts – and roughly the same story. it will never be able to be viewed as a prequel, prior to the cage. that is upsetting to some.

having whined all that out, i’m still onboard and think its gonna be great. I just want old klaus mine of the scorpions over there to think with an american mind and not use trigger words and phrases that are going to set all the naysayers off. see?

and i love you too, man. we’re solid. old sean.

THE WOMEN!!

=h=

193. RaveOnEd - November 13, 2008

182 – You mean, it wasn’t riveting when they describe the Romulan method of reviving the dead Kirk’s body (didn’t they use nanoprobes or something)?

I gotta agree with you on the book. If you’d have written your summary before, it would have saved me from reading the book when it came out!

194. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

Sean, Closttrekker, etc. — Sorry if I was condescending or cranky myself. 49th birthday today and probably letting things rankle me too much — certainly not expressing myself with as much grace or dignity as I should, so apologies if I offended any or all.

195. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

168 – Understood. Please read my post and apology at 194.

196. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#192—“but harve bennett and nick meyer not only respected canon, they adhered to it strictly. ”

Not so. They missed some spots too, like Admiral Cartwright’s dialogue in TSFS about the age of the Enterprise (Bennett and Nimoy went to sleep on that one), or Nick Meyer’s failure to correct Khan’s lines about “200 years ago”, when he had established in the beginning of the film that TWOK takes place in the 23rd Century (later further pinned down to the “late” 23rd Century in TVH).

They did a fair job with respect to canon, but I would hardly call it “strict adherence”.

If the only goof these guys make is Chekov’s age, I’d say that’s an even better job.

197. Nick Cook - November 13, 2008

Sean, #182.

Might not have been clear since I mixed up the numbers, but I agree with you entirely, and had a good chuckle while reading your description. It’s an awful novel, and hard to believe it was written by the same duo who gave us Prime Directive (and Ashes of Eden for that matter, which I agree, was a good tale). Maybe Shatner had way too much input.

The Return was the last Shatnerverse novel I ever read. That kind of story-telling just isn’t for me.

198. sean - November 13, 2008

#185

But that’s not the only reason JJ gave, is it? As I recall, he stated numerous times that he wasn’t intersted in merely shoehorning Shatner into the script. It was only later, when people continued to press the subject, that he gave more expository answers about Shatner not wanting cameos (something Shatman did say) and the the scene they wrote for him didn’t work. What does that tell me? That they tried to work something for Shatner into the story, but when he looked at the ebb and flow of the film, he decided it just didn’t work. Simple. He gave the story priority over sentimentalism – that may seem bittersweet to some of us, but I think it will result in the better product. Of course, only May can tell us that.

See, I have this bad habit of taking people at their word unless they’ve given me reason to doubt it. JJ hasn’t done that so far. Bill, on the other hand, is notorious for offering somewhat contradictory statements. Heck, his own position on this very subject became contradictory. Back in December ’06 on the Craig Ferguson show, he said he met JJ and *he* brought up the issue of bringing back ‘old, dead Capt Kirk’. He seemed rather incredulous at the idea of bringing the character back, and even when Ferguson mentions ‘the sci fi thing’, Shatner counters with ‘…but it has to have some logic to it. How do you get there?…What are you going to make happen?’. Flash-forward a year, and suddenly it’s all ‘bad business decisions’ and ‘there are plenty of ways to bring him back’. The tune distinctly changed.

199. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#194, #195—-No apology necessary, but thanks.

And happy birthday!

As Dr. McCoy would say, “Damnit, Jim, other people have birthdays….Why are we treating yours like a funeral?”

:)

200. The Underpants Monster - November 13, 2008

#171 – “Maybe she was in Starfleet, too.”

*forehead smack* You’re right, of course – I was baselessly assuming stuff. I’m a 1960’s sexist and I didn’t even know it! ;-)

201. dalek - November 13, 2008

#168 actually closettrekker the question was asked quite legitimately earlier by Admiral Bumblebee, based on these showings it’s clear it’s an alternate timeline, so why would Shatner’s Kirk appearance be a problem? It fits perfectly with the discussion, and you are always as guilty as anyone else for discussing Shatner of which you have often vehemently opposed.

I find it quite ironic that you argued against the possiblity of a new timeline that would alter Generations, citing any small change would irreperably alter Star Trek timelines forever (even tho most of us pointed out Kirk can be resurrected with the timeline in tact). Now in several recent threads you are tub thumping the change in the timeline and actually saying what a great idea it is and how its perfectly canon to change canon, and you are shooting down people at every opportunity on a matter you once took the opposite side to. Interesting how your point of view changes so 180 degrees when it suits you. So if there’s anything worth sighing about, it’s that lol

202. sean - November 13, 2008

#194

Totally unnecessary apology! We’re just discussing and sharing insights. I enjoy it, really!

203. Flake - November 13, 2008

I’m loving the product placement! BMW and Budweiser so far :)

What this means is lots of adverts for BMW and Budweiser that feature Star Trek, Bond for example has that covered with Cars and Gadgets etc, but Trek not… it makes sense for brands to still exist in the future because there are brands still going today that may be over 200 years old.

Guiness for example.

204. rehabilitated hitch1969© - November 13, 2008

the misses in canon for bennett and meyer are negligible and nitpicky. stuff that only the ubers like us would know. you can watch space seed; then wrath of khan and its fluid. i am wondering if there is going to be a scene with nimoy on the new E- they probably cant do that, because its defies explanation. thats the sort of lapse i am talkign about.

and please no one misunderstand me – i’m good with everything i’ve seen and heard to date; fully support the new movie. I just cringe a little every time i hear jj bragging about how its not going to be my fathers star trek. i feel like kirk, when sybok offers to show him his pain.

JJ wants to be the new Sybok. i’m not as eager to forget the past as he is, is all. he is asking the diehards to accept alot – some, too much. he should be sensitive to that. after all, he can talk all the studio propoganda that he wants his management to hear but this movie isnt for non-fans – it IS for us. and he should respect what he has been given. which i think he does, but he needs to watch some of the arrogant comments is all.

THE WOMEN!!

=h=

205. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

199 and 202 Thanks for your graciousness. Just thought I was too pissy.

202 – thanks for the b-day wishes:

“As Dr. McCoy would say, ‘Damnit, Jim, other people have birthdays….Why are we treating yours like a funeral?'”

Well … maybe because I’m one year closer to dead? ;)

206. John from Cincinnati - November 13, 2008

God, what if this movie makes a billion dollars or more?

207. mikey_pikey (Ireland) - November 13, 2008

Guinness! Hell yeah itl still be around for another 200 years, as will bud, or budweiser classic as it will be, anyone remember the product placement in Back to the future 2, that was fun, and just added a lttle touch of realism to the cooky gadgets. :=))

208. sean - November 13, 2008

#295

Doh! Somehow I missed that it was your birthday. Happy Birthday!

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times… :)

209. sean - November 13, 2008

#203

The article says the actual bike didn’t have the BMW logo though, just to be clear.

210. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#201—“…you are always as guilty as anyone else for discussing Shatner of which you have often vehemently opposed.”

A fair point, but consider this.

I was definitely more predisposed to arguing about it when there was a lack of news about the new film. That certainly isn’t the case now, is it? The is plenty of other information to talk about that is actually far more relevant to this article.

“I find it quite ironic that you argued against the possiblity of a new timeline that would alter Generations, citing any small change would irreperably alter Star Trek timelines forever (even tho most of us pointed out Kirk can be resurrected with the timeline in tact).”

I have always maintained that my preference was for a story to be told without a permanently altered timeline. I am still uncertain as to how permanent the changes to the past will be by the end of the film (especially given Orci’s recent “final solution” comments), or how significant those changes will be.

My main point was always that Shatner should not be shoehorned into the story, and that his presence would need to benefit that story in order to justify resurrecting him. Nothing in that stance has changed.

“Now in several recent threads you are tub thumping the change in the timeline and actually saying what a great idea it is…”

Actually, what I have been saying is simply that the use of alternate timelines is “canonically legitimate”, not that it is “a great idea”. That remains to be seen. If it results in a great movie, then obviously it was a great idea. If it doesn’t, then it wasn’t such a great idea.

Just as with your interpretation of the very vague dialogue in “The Menagerie”, you seem to have a tendancy here to twist the words of others to suit you and your viewpoint. Now you twisted mine. Thanks.

211. John from Cincinnati - November 13, 2008

203. yes, but it gives it a more Bladerunner feel than Star Trek. Trek was always about being “above” contemporary times, socially, scientifically.

Spock: “Captain, I’ve noticed people using colorful metaphors”
Kirk: “That’s simply the way they talk here. No one notices you unless you curse every other word.”

Spock: “Judging by the pollution content in the atmosphere, I believe we have arrived in the latter half of the 20th century”.

McCoy “A who movie?”
Keeler: “A Clark Gable movie. Don’t you know?”
McCoy “Well I know what a movie is.”

212. Fred - November 13, 2008

You know, with all the dancing around the “Kirk is dead” thing, the fact this is an altered timeline means that he could show up at the end of the movie alive and well when Spock returns to his own time, no more explanation given than the events of the past didn’t unfold as before.

213. Jeffries Tuber - November 13, 2008

55. Viper-1082 – November 13, 2008
This movie is supposed to show us the beginning of our beloved charakters. When it´s a different timeline, this movie is…meaningless.

Interesting point to make, because I think this strategy does the opposite: it explores the characters’ essential natures by exploring who they are, who they would be and how these characteristics come to be regardless of circumstance–like water finding its own level.

It sounds as though, and I’m being very speculative here, that the two characters who are fully formed in this movie are Bones and Scotty, both of whom are older and ‘over the hump’ of young adulthood. Of course we’re most interested in Kirk and Spock and know the very least about Uhura, Chekov and Sulu, so this approach brings our crew to a certain level of parity.

214. sean - November 13, 2008

#204

I hear where you’re coming from. I guess it just doesn’t come off as ‘arrogance’ to me. Just unbridled enthusiasm, which is something I think Trek has been missing for a LONG while. I think this was going to end up alienating a certain segment of the fanbase no matter what, but it seems like a necessary evil in order to revive this sucker. I think a lot of people *need* to hear ‘not your daddy’s Star Trek’ because they never liked their daddy’s Star Trek. Or more specifically, what Star Trek had turned into – a punchline.

215. THX-1138 - November 13, 2008

It really does sound like a good film and one that I think I will enjoy. And I know that Star Trek has to change in order to be relevant. I still am not as certain as others around here that this is all happening in an alternate timeline, though. And I have to admit that if it isn’t an alternate timeline, a part of me feels a little sad. I’m sure a whole bunch of people are going to absolutely love this movie and I’m also equally sure that I am going to really enjoy it too. But I can’t help but think that I will watch this movie with a certain sense of melancholy. After all, if the old stuff weren’t so great then the new stuff wouldn’t exist.

But before some n00b posts here calling me a “purist” or a “hater”, understand that I do look forward to this movie.

216. John from Cincinnati - November 13, 2008

People, we still don’t know how the movie ends and what Orci means by “final solution”. The timeline could very well get restored in the last 10 minutes, leaving Capt. Kirk dead. This could be the dramatic jeopardy too. Does Spock leave the timeline corrupted just to save Kirk’s life? Or does he restore it to what he knows it should be knowing Kirk will die? Kind of like ‘City on the Edge of Forever”.

217. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

208 – Thank you, Sean. I believe it is the best of times, and ten years from now these will be the good old days. And what number Trek film will be on by then?

218. Daoud - November 13, 2008

I must agree, that this new Star Trek is way too much like Star Wars. Just look at this clip!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvx-HjjP13U

219. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#214—-“I think a lot of people *need* to hear ‘not your daddy’s Star Trek’ because they never liked their daddy’s Star Trek. Or more specifically, what Star Trek had turned into – a punchline.”

Excellent point, and I agree wholeheartedly. My kids laugh at “my” Star Trek (TOS).

At its heart, I believe that ‘Star Trek’ is a vision of an optimistic future in which the human race has not only succeeded in surviving, but united to conquer many of the social ills which plague us today, and banded together in an effort to explore the final frontier with peaceful intentions along with other species that share our goals.

I don’t think that anything I’ve heard or seen so far has suggested that vision has been compromised.

With that said, the Star Trek I remember (TOS) has always been full of action, adventure, sexuality, humor, and the occasional social commentary or thoughtful notion.

I don’t see why Mr. Abrams 21st Century spin on it would be any different. I have a feeling it just got “sexy” again.

220. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#216—-Very good points.

Bob Orci: “We will make no excuses about bending canon. If you see the movie, you will either agree with our final solution, or you won’t. But it’s too early to tell right. Just hoping for an open mind.”

BaronByng:”… by ‘final solution’ you mean there’s something we have to see the movie to understand, right…? Something not evident in a bunch of movie stills?”

Bob Orci:”Yes on ‘final solution’ question”

(taken from the Enterprise Image thread)

221. Captain Joe (formerly Joseph Brown) - November 13, 2008

#54 As I pointed out in a comment on the page with James Cawley’s thoughts on the criticisms to the newly released material, even the events of Enterprise are in question because of the number of events during it that were caused by interference from the future (which would now have been significantly changed by Nero’s attacks).

#127 You make your case well, but try to understand that if the timeline isn’t fixed then the old timeline will in essence be erased. This is what gets some fans up in arms because an altered timeline would be worse than a straight forward reboot. In a straight forward reboot, you would have the old Universe A and the new Universe B and both would be separate and equally valid. But as I wrote above, with an altered timeline the old continuity would be erased. Sure, the old continuity culminates in Nero changing the timeline, but without the old continuity being restored at the end of this movie or the last of Mr. Abrams’ Trek movies then most of the meaningfulness of the old continuity would be gone. Its only real meaning would be that it led Nero to change it and nothing more. Saying all this, I remain hopeful that these fears are for nothing and that in the end the old continuity is restored with only the most minor of alterations.

222. Jeffries Tuber - November 13, 2008

The key ingredient, the salt of this picture, is that George Kirk dies in the opening of the picture. It seems as though this slows Jim down a bit, spins him out on a path of self-destruction, and prevents the by-the-book timeline of Kirk becoming the youngest Captain in Starfleet.

But if I’m reading the tea leaves in Orci’s comments, water will find its own level and Kirk will still end up the youngest Captain–because it’s his destiny.

Recall Spock’s reaction when the USS Intrepid was destroyed in “The Immunity Syndrome.” If Nero succeeds at all in killing a substantial number of Vulcans with the drill plot, it’s reasonable to assume that he’ll be thoroughly unhinged for the second act of this film. Speculative again, yes, but a possible reason for Spock Prime to give Kirk a reason to relieve him from duty.

I keep saying this: you all should read BEST DESTINY. Everything I’ve read indicates that this movie is a hybrid of the elements in BEST DESTINY and “Yesterday’s Enterprise.”

223. John from Cincinnati - November 13, 2008

I think the next critical thing about this movie will be the music. IMHO the TOS music was by far the best. I had gave the series a certain credibility and gravitas. See “Arena”, the opening scene with the thundering drums in the background really gave it a sense of military battle, a ruined base, killed personnel. From TNG on the music was crap. Light ethereal music along the lines of Tubular Bells. Just crap.

Imgaine Star Wars without the John Williams score. The movies get very campy very fast. Watch a Star Wars movie with the old Battlestar Galactica or Buck Rogers music, it makes it a totally different movie.

I’m not saying the new movie needs to sound like John Williams music. I’m saying it’s going to be a critical element that will help determine how far this movie goes.

224. Daoud - November 13, 2008

#221 Think about it this way. The Prime Universe never goes away… what we’re seeing is a parallel universe.

The Mirror Universe never went away, and clearly it has different parallel mirror universes… or the inconsistencies can’t be explained.

Real world discussion of time travel and parallel universes suggests that if you could go back in time, you start a divergent timeline. So when you go “back” to the future, you’re not living in 1985, but in 1985A. Further time travel might only muck it up. Again, we’re talking real physics interpretation. As far as we know, there is no time travel back in time, only forward in time (by approaching light speed).

225. sean - November 13, 2008

#221

Actually, according to Star Trek’s own internal logic (episodes like Parallels, Mirror Mirror, etc.) each possible decision we make can create an alternate universe as a result. So no, nothing Nero does will erase those parallel existences (unless that’s something his black hole machine can do, in which case I’m really in for something). In fact, if it makes you more comfortable, you can choose to believe that TOS & the established continuity is the ‘real’ universe, and that this new film takes place in a ‘mirror’ universe.

226. sean - November 13, 2008

#223

Have you ever tried the score to Best of Both Worlds from TNG? It’s excellent, and never boring.

227. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#221—I completely understand.

I think what you have to remember is that, even if the “Universe A timeline” isn’t restored, you’re hardly losing anything that wasn’t already lost, IMO.

Who is to say that, had Orci and Kurtzman not convinced JJ Abrams to direct this script and help pitch the idea to Paramount, there was ever going to be more Trek produced in continuance of that timeline? After all, everything seemed to indicate that it was over and had finally run its course in the face of steadily declining interest.

With that said, how much, if any, of the original timeline (or Universe A, as you called it) will be restored is still a very open question.

(see Orci’s comments about that very thing in post #220)

228. John from Cincinnati - November 13, 2008

226.

Yes but it never inspired me. A good example of bad music, see the movie “Generations”. Just awful.

229. Captain Joe (formerly Joseph Brown) - November 13, 2008

#224 Then what is the point of Spock trying to stop Nero? Nero wouldn’t be changing the “Prime” Universe. He would be creating a new parallel universe.

230. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#223—“I think the next critical thing about this movie will be the music. IMHO the TOS music was by far the best.”

Without a doubt. I love the TOS scores. It couldn’t have been more perfect, and was never again as good.

231. Jeffries Tuber - November 13, 2008

How can the music from the Enterprise’s unveiling in TMP be topped?

In terms of purposeful music, that and the Mutara Nebula Battle Music from TWOK are just… intimidatingly great.

232. sean - November 13, 2008

#228

Well, I’ll just strongly disagree then. Ha. I think Generations’ music was one of the few redeeming qualities of the film (besides the excellent visuals). A lot of TOS’ music was truly great, but they unfortunately had a tendency to overuse it. I think that’s a big part of why modern audiences will sometimes find TOS rather silly – there are some really bombastic cues that seem totally inappropriate for a given scene. I would have liked a little more of TNG’s subtlety (though I agree, a lot of TNG music was extreme on the other side of the spectrum – too sedate) but TOS is a product of its time, and viewed through that prism the scores were totally appropriate.

The Best of Both Worlds though – holy mackerel! It gives me chills everytime I hear it.

233. RaveOnEd - November 13, 2008

230 – I have to agree about the TOS scores. They were almost a character in the series as the ship and crew.

234. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#229—“Captain, I am forced to agree with the doctor.”—Spock

I agree. There would be no point. Personally, I have always looked at alternate timelines created as a result of interference with the past and “The Mirror Universe” as two different things, the Mirror Universe being more of something which takes place in another dimension.

I am admittedly less familiar with “Parallels” (TNG) than I am with “COTEOF”, “Tommorow Is Yesterday”,”Assignment: Earth”, “Yesteryear” (TAS), or “Yesterday’s Enterprise” (TNG).

235. Captain Joe (formerly Joseph Brown) - November 13, 2008

#227 These aren’t so much my own fears, but the underlying fears I see in some of the responses of those being very critical of the film. That isn’t to say that I don’t to some point wonder how this is all going to work out or that I don’t hope the timeline is fixed. I am just trying to get across what I believe others haven’t been able to express completely. TPTB seem to have a very nuanced view of canon and continuity and not everybody gets that like you do. I was just trying to help you understand that point of view better because you seem like you can explain the nuances far better than I.

Btw, I think the old continuity wouldn’t have died. If Mr. Abrams hadn’t made this film, another Trek show or movie would have been made eventually. Maybe that unnamed animated series in the 26th century that was proposed about a year or two back would have come out.

236. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#235—“Maybe that unnamed animated series in the 26th century that was proposed about a year or two back would have come out.”

Perhaps, but (and this is solely my own opinion) I wouldn’t be interested in it. Frankly, I was never more than casually interested in any version of Star Trek that did not feature Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, and by the time of ENT’s cancellation, I hadn’t even bothered following it anymore for several years (I never even paid to see a TNG-era film). It was only the announcement that a movie would be made once again portraying the TOS-era characters which peaked my interest.

Even if that (the proposed animated series) happened (once again, IMO), Star Trek would be nothing more than a “has been” franchise that was then relegated to animation without enough interest to support a new television series, much less a feature length film that didn’t go straight to dvd. At least this way it has a chance for a more respectable future in the highly competitive entertainment industry.

I prefer that, as long as its original vision is not compromised. I haven’t seen nor heard anything which suggests that it has.

237. sean - November 13, 2008

#236

“Star Trek would be nothing more than a “has been” franchise that was then relegated to animation”

To me, this perfectly encapsulates why the Star Wars: Clone Wars animated feature was yet another nail in the Star Wars creativity coffin. We tried animation with TAS, and I’d personally rather we never go to that particular well again.

238. Devon - November 13, 2008

#57 – “Treks II and IV definitely have elements of this while blending in some fast-paced story telling and action.”

Star Trek 2 was one of my examples of how to do it right.

239. Devon - November 13, 2008

#56 – “Budweiser Classic, BMW logos. If this becomes sort of f’ed up product placement bonanza I may indeed leave my Trekkin’ to the past iterations.”

The past iterations where Product Placement also existed? Apple? Michelob? Commodore Computers? Kraft “Marshmellon” Dispenser? Steppenwolf and Roy Orbison songs? Yeah…… so what now?

Also, I think you need to re-read through the initial post, you will see that the BMW logo was not present on the motorcycle in the footage (at least from the poster’s P.O.V.)

240. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#237—“We tried animation with TAS, and I’d personally rather we never go to that particular well again.”

Certainly not, IMO. In 22 episodes, there is only one that I thought was any good (Dorothy Fontana’s “Yesteryear”, of course). The only reason I could even appreciate that one (or bothered to see TAS at all) was the fact that it featured the characters I loved from TOS.

241. Devon - November 13, 2008

#61 – “Having slept about it, I have come to accept the truth, that the Star Trek of Roddenberry is gone.”

The “Star Trek of Roddenberry” has been gone now for going on two decades, if not sooner than that. I appreciate Roddenberry, but with all due respect to him or you of course, it seems alot of people enjoyed more of the Trek where he had little involvement, I.E. “The Wrath of Khan,” “The Undiscovered Country,” “Deep Space Nine,” etc. etc.

242. sean - November 13, 2008

#240

Exactly. Though I do have fond memories of watching TAS in reruns on Nickelodeon in the early eighties, it does not hold a candle to TOS. It’s also full of some pretty goofy stuff.

243. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#242—“I do have fond memories of watching TAS in reruns on Nickelodeon in the early eighties…”

Me too. I just can’t sit through most of it now.

“It’s also full of some pretty goofy stuff.”

Without a doubt.

244. dalek - November 13, 2008

#210 The question was brought up, I responded actually stating that Shatner’s onscreen presence wouldn’t make sense with the story they’ve come up with, unless it happened after the main events of the movie. Unfortunately there is no discussion board and conversation is organic. Alternate timelines would make any possible story subject ON topic, as the possibilities are multiple, and one of them being Kirk may not die on Veridian 3.

Surely, if there is no reset button ending, you will concede that it’s possible. And I agree with what someone else said that it would create a brand new universe, and not delete the other as certain past Trek stories have alluded to.

In effect we’d have the Roddenberry/Bermanverse, and the JJ/Orciverse.

I apologise if i misconstrued your previous sentiments. But you did once accuse me of making up dates about certain public statements Shatner and Orci made, which I later proved were true. So I owed you one :D

245. Blowback - November 13, 2008

236. Closettrekker

You never watched any TNG episodes, or was it just the movies? All due respect my friend but you missed some excellent television IMHO. I grew up with TOS but TNG was also good quality once it found its legs (meaning season three and later).

246. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

Re: 73 – The Answer: If you look at that photograph of Spock on the German site linked to above, you will see in the top righthand corner of the computer display, “B4″.

247. TK - November 13, 2008

i can’t believe that we were robbed of our christmas present this year!!!!!! Do we seriously have to wait for another 6 months? SIX MONTHS!!!

So many things can happen in six months, let’s just pray that the world will still be a peaceful place in six momth’s time!!!

248. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

Re 122 Thorsten. “Kerr Avon, it is no military movie. This is not Battlestar Galactica redux. In the scene where Pike talks Kirk to enlist with Starfleet, he explains that they are a peacekeeping force.”

Thorsten, thanks for replying. It is encouraging that it is not a military film. Nonetheless, even “peacekeeping force” is a little distasteful. Sounds like maintaining peace via aggressive intervention – that in a time when Reinhold Niebuhr’s theories around this have been dubunked.

I would prefer Starfleet to be a research/exploration organisation, not a “peacekeeping force.” Roddenberry would have been better sticking to the idea of the United Earth Space Probe Agency instead.

249. thorsten - November 13, 2008

[248] Kerr, in the Still photos in the lobby were shots from a room looking like the federation council, lots of empty rows of seats, and other pictures showing JJ directing the leaders of this council, all human with a guy resembling Obama in the center. Looked like the UN security council.
Of course it’s speculation again, but my guess is that Starfleets purpose is still to seek out new life, and not policy the galaxy…

250. dalek - November 13, 2008

#153 hi thorsten you said that:

“Spock Prime appears just for a short time in the movie, after QuintoSpock got rid of Kirk on the Ice Planet…”

Did JJ state that was his only appearance in the movie. I seem to recall that Nimoy himself said he accidentally meant his younger self in some sort of accidental time crossover.

So that can’t be his only scene in the film if Quinto wasn’t it. I was imagining several scenes during the movie.

Also based on the fact he was really white haired and is on the ice part of Vulcan, I’m suspecting he didn’t just arrive and might have been there since the first time incursion, waiting for Nero to reappear. Could it be this version of Spock lives out his final years in the past to safeguard it?

According to Nimoy nothing happens to him in this movie that prevents him from appearing again. I take that as either, he doesn’t die, or he doesn’t want to give away any significant spoilers.

251. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#245—“You never watched any TNG episodes, or was it just the movies? All due respect my friend but you missed some excellent television IMHO. I grew up with TOS but TNG was also good quality once it found its legs (meaning season three and later).”

No, that’s not correct. I have seen all of TNG, either during its initial run or in syndication. I also watched the movies when they made it to HBO/Cinemax, etc. What I meant was I never saw them in the theater.

I just never fell in love with the characters or what Gene envisioned what I considered to be a very romantic 23rd Century evolving into by the TNG-era. It just never resonated with me. I was not so intrigued with android pinnochios, Klingons in Starfleet, holodecks (and holodeck adventures), children on the bridge, Ferengi, caveman Klingons howling, singing, and eating live food, or ship’s counselors aboard the USS Hilton.

But more than anything, the characters just fell short to me.

With that said, I don’t begrudge anyone else’s appreciation for it. TNG does not need me or my opinion to justify its production. It was quite successful in its own right.

Different strokes for different folks, as they say.

I do like “Yesterday’s Enterprise”. I think that was fantastic writing for any era.

I also like some of DS9 (which had the better characters of any Bermanverse series, IMO). I cannot say I have much of any appreciation of VOY. I did like ENT, once I actually saw it on dvd (especially its later episodes, excluding the finale debacle), although once again, the characters fell short for me.

Even the best of the TNG-era movies (FC) was —to me—only mediocre, and I think it gets somewhat overrated around here due to the poor company it keeps (the other 3 movies of that era). I think it is better than STV: The Great Trek Turd Of ’89, but that’s about it.

252. thorsten - November 13, 2008

[250] Hi Dalek… JJ said nothing about this. But the way their ways parted, Jim and Scotty beaming onto the Enterprise, with Spock prime remaining in the outpost, felt to me that they at least will not meet again. And Spock Prime asked Kirk to keep silent about their encounter. But these are all the facts that got revealed yesterday…

253. dalek - November 13, 2008

252 thorsten, thanks for the reply.

I’m guessing then that if he is to meet Quinto Spock (which he said they did), and he’s asking Kirk not to tell Quinto about him, that either the meeting takes place after this scene without Kirk. Or they’ve met earlier and Quinto didn’t know who he was.

Fascinating!

254. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#244—“Surely, if there is no reset button ending, you will concede that it’s possible”

Of course, I just don’t see the benefit to the story. Apparently, neither did JJ Abrams, or he at least felt the scene that Orci wrote was out of place.

” I agree with what someone else said that it would create a brand new universe, and not delete the other as certain past Trek stories have alluded to. ”

I don’t, otherwise why would McCoy’s intervention in the timeline in “COTEOF” have any effect on the timeline he left behind to enter the Guardian? According to your theory, why wouldn’t it have just created a parallel timeline with no effect on their own?

Why would it be necessary to return Captain Christopher and the Air Force Sgt. to a point in time before their discovery of the Enterprise and her crew in “Tommorow Is Yesterday”? Wouldn’t it just create a parallel timeline without affecting their own (which they obviously feared would be the result)?

I could go on and on…but I think you get the point.

“I apologise if i misconstrued your previous sentiments. But you did once accuse me of making up dates about certain public statements Shatner and Orci made, which I later proved were true. So I owed you one :D”

I do recall something like that.

Fair enough, although I also recall admitting that the mistake was mine and apologizing. I guess we are even then.

255. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

Re: 249. Thanks for that info, Thorsten. Really appreciate you taking the time to reply to me. I hope your speculation is correct.

Based on what you saw, did the clips give any indication that the story would explore Roddenberry’s philosophical take on the universe or was it all largely action, action, action?

256. Andy Patterson - November 13, 2008

PeterN where are you? This is your thread buddy.

257. thorsten - November 13, 2008

[255] Hmm, Kerr, that is a good question. While I waited for the show to start and watched the looping production stills and drawings, I had the impression that this is still Roddenberrys universe… nothing indicated that Neros attack on the Kelvin changed the Federation into something the warfaring state resembling “Yesterdays Enterprise”…

258. thorsten - November 13, 2008

On the other hand, why do the Romulans attack the Kelvin…
Why do they want to Kill Jim Kirk before he is even born?

When have they met, except on Vulcan, when Kirk destroys the drill?

259. dalek - November 13, 2008

#254 but I still have all those episodes on DVD, they are not erased :D

The Guardian point is a good one.

However the Captain Christopher episode I can’t take seriously because they didn’t think the time travel through thoroughly. They beamed Captain Christopher back into himself seconds before he met the Enterprise, and suddenly the Enterprise itself is no longer there for him to find again…. Ditto the military base guard.

It should have been like Marty McFly in back to the future 2, going back to that point there should have been two enterprises. One that returned Christopher and the one that encountered him in the first point.

Anyway at this point in Star Trek they didn’t know what Worf new in Parallels that every decision you make creates a brand new universe of possibility.

I think that both possibilities can be argued and this is something Shatner and the Reeves Stevens postulated in one of their novels. That time travel creates alternative universes and it was Picard’s intervention in First Contact that created the alternate universe. In one universe Cochrane was silent about the Borg, in another he told everyone about it and it created a militaristic Federation.

I see that Enterprise borrowed a variation of that idea with in a mirror darkly.

260. Kirk's Girdle - November 13, 2008

A cameo by Admiral Hasselhoff would make millions

261. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

A few final questions for Thorsten…

How is the characterisation of Kirk? Does Chris Pine do a good job playing the role? From some of the descriptions of him as a troubled teen, I don’t want to see them go down the stereotypical Hollywood path of angst-ridden youth and see him turn out as another Anakin Skywalker type…

Is the characterisation cartoonish or is it more gritty? Some of the later Trek films were becoming self-parody but I would prefer characters with some real development, pathos and so on in the film and not one-dimensional action heroes who can dangle off a cliff by one hand. Is there a focus on character and realism based on what you saw?

Secondly, do you think the film is aimed at a family audience? From the descriptions, Kirk’s barroom brawl seems quite bloody? Are the other action scenes (space battles and Sulu’s sword fight) very violent? Is the sexing up with Uhura taking her top off going to be very explicit or is it all just a tease?

Thanks!

262. sean - November 13, 2008

I think some of us forget that Trek has been violent in the past. TWOK had some pretty gnarly stuff in it – the Ceti Eels, Kahn’s face, the murder of the Regula 1 crew, even the phaser disintegrations were pretty severe. I saw that as a kid and I wasn’t ruined for life. Kids can handle a lot more than parent’s think they can.

263. Requiem1971 - November 13, 2008

Ok, had to write what I see as an issue that no one else is saying. With the NEW MOVIE coming out and the NEW ENTERPRISE 1701 setting precedence, we see a NEW BEGINNING. SO, wouldn’t successor ships look different now that we know what ship was to begin the line? I mean, take the NEW 1701. It will go on to be upgraded to a new TMP 1701/A. Then on and on and so forth. Makes since to me and I’m all for it. Can you imagine TNG upgraded?

264. thorsten - November 13, 2008

Kerr, Pines Kirk arrives at the cadet meeting point in time, gives his motorcycle to the next technician as a gift and enters the shuttle. He was Kirk for me the second he talked to Uhura in that bar… I don’t want to get into the canon discussion here, I am a trekker since 1970 and totally devoted to TOS etc, but yes, this guy is Kirk. He is not the Shat, and lucky us he tries not one second to be him. But he is Kirk.

It is totally gritty, very fresh and energetic. A lovely sequence when Jim rides his bike along the horizon for example. 150 million bucks worth of photography went into that movie, and you see that in every shot. And the crew is far from being two dimensional, even from the short pieces JJ showed. It is character driven drama, with people coming from Iowa but working in outer space.

The beating in the bar is more funny than brutal, but yes, Kirk gets a couple of nasty hits to the face. Sulus fight is rather artistic than violent, and the sex should be PG13…

265. dalek - November 13, 2008

#260 Halelujah brother. What this film needs is the Hoff. Maybe Mr Orci can clear up whether his cameo was considered, and whether the new E was gonna be a mustang.

266. Kerr Avon - November 13, 2008

264. Thanks for all those detailed replies. Everything you have said has given me positive impressions. I am very glad that Pine is doing his own take on the role – the last thing we want is someone doing an impersionation of Shatner! :-p

Yes, energy, freshness and good cinematography are needed. I hope the planets are “real” and not just all CGI bluescreens. Trek has always really suffered from a lack of gritty outdoor shots, with the wind rustling the actors’ faces etc. Everything felt too studio-bound in the past, so I hope this has changed.

If it is well-acted, character-driven drama, with thoughtful philosophy, an intelligent and dramatic script and de-emphasized violence and military aspect, I am sold on it! That is all I want from Sci.-Fi but it is very rare in these days of brain-dead effects-driven extravaganzas but hopefully this Trek will be something very, very special.

267. cpelc - November 13, 2008

Did anyone ever consider if this is simply fitting in the MOVIE CANON?

Of course this would throw out anything not specifically mentioned in the movies.

Explains why Chekov would be recognized by Kahn.
Also explains why the ENT-D bridge was different in Generations.

Let’s just say that this movie will fit with the other movies…but not necessarily the TV shows.

268. Ratchet And Clang - November 13, 2008

@ 204,

I agree with how he’s trying to speak a bit too much to the ‘new’ crowd and not at all to the fans.

Star Trek is big enough that if it’s successful it can turn out VERY well, in the box office if it’s ONLY fans who show up. THAT’s how big this franchise is.

The risk is naturally that he’ll loose half the fan base in favor for a younger crowd which might loose interest next year or the year after, never becoming loyal fans. If anyone still knows what a LOYAL fan actually means, they’ll understand that they’re the very reason WHY there is Star Trek today. If it wasn’t for the fans, there wouldn’t be anything. Remember they were the ones who brought it back from the dead.

So… yeah… a little respect for those who know Star Trek history and even more to those who respect the canon. I’m not a MAJOR Star Trek fan, but I do love it. I’ll get disappointed if he’s trying to trick the old fans into HIS VERSION of Star Trek which might only speak to the younger crowd (which is a sickness in Hollywood, they just want the young, restless ADHD driven crowd, which then comes back and bites them where they deserve). It’s the WRONG young crowd they often aim at. The hip, ‘every second week a new Cellphone’ types and party till your liver is regurgitated young people, won’t make loyal Star Trek fans. They’ll surly be a good tool to hype up the E entertainment programs about the new SEXY star trek, but it won’t do diddly squat for the franchise.

For the record I’m 24 years old… At USC, where it’s quite obvious that Hollywood keeps taking wrong turns… And is now spiraling down such new lows, that the simplest retarded stories are now becoming Oscar candidates.

Anyway, I understand the worries about this new film that’s being injected to a dying corpse (Franchise). They might inject it with an adrenalin boost then, but if they don’t operate on it, heal it, take care of it, it WILL DIE.

Good luck to all those who really know what’s at risk here for the history of Star Trek. Too many damages have scarred the franchise…

269. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#259—-Whether you believe the “Parallels” take on the effects of time travel is a better theory or not, it is still very contradictory to ‘canon’ established 25 years or so earlier in the Star Trek Universe, as evidenced by “COTEOF”, “Tommorow Is Yesterday”, and “Assignment: Earth”, in particular.

It also is contradictory to “Yesteryear” (the only ‘canon’ TAS episode, IMO, since it is repeatedly referenced in live action Trek). Why would, upon Kirk and Spock’s return from Orion’s past, there be any change in the timeline they knew, instead of there simply being a new parallel universe that has nothing to do with them created by Spock’s death at the age of 7?

Canonically, the two theories do not mesh within the Star Trek Universe.

The “Parallels” theory wouldn’t mesh with First Contact, either. Otherwise, why would Picard even bother attempting to stop the Borg in the first place? The “Parallels” theory would suggest that the Borg would only stop first contact with the Vulcans in some parallel universe, and not the one in which the battle took place near the beginning of the movie. Right?

That theory would render all of those time travel stories, as well as the current one, as non-canon if we were to accept its predominance.

I choose not to surrender those stories without a fight.

At least in Orci/Kurtzman’s story, the long established canon is still relevant (at the very least) to the point that it is required to get Nero and his accomplices to a place where they decide to take action to alter the past in their favor.

To me, it is the “Parallels” theory which does not pass muster.

I choose to view the “Mirror” stories as part of an alternate dimension that has nothing to do with time travelling interference.

I can see your point with “In A Mirror, Darkly”, and the suggestion there…but I think it is still left somewhat to interpretation. As fun as that episode is, I don’t think it is worth bringing into question the canonical status of something as precious as “City On The Edge Of Forever” by going that route.

I’ll keep that one, and the other TOS episodes I mentioned…

270. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

230 & 233 – I completely agree with you both about TOS music and so would my best friend. I believe that those scores — especially ones accompanying shots of the Enterprise at the end of each episode as she flies off to the next mission and adventure — are undeniably a huge part of what made the series so great: so antipodal and sharply in contrast to the indistinct and nondescript background music accompanying the spin-offs. The music at the end of “The City of the Edge of Forever,” for example, as the landing party beams up from the Guardian planet, is simply haunting and unforgettable. Just one of the great production values of the low-budget but avante-garde original series.

271. dalek - November 13, 2008

#269 Some good points. Every time there is a time travel incursion to the past, it effectively erases the future as we know it and has a knock on effect to what happened previous. Even if various small events change, that one pebble that rocks the pool will have a knock on effect that will eventually change larger events.

Braga admitted several years ago that the events of First Contact created a brand new timeline.

It’s messy muddy sticky waters. Depending on what interpretation of timelines, alternate universes, or Executive Producer you listen to… I suppose at the end of the day if we are given two different Trek Universes, the Roddenbermanverse and the JJOrciverse, then it is as James Cawley suggested, up to the fan which version they hold as dear to their heart and as real to them.

Enjoying the debate!

272. sean - November 13, 2008

#268

“Star Trek is big enough that if it’s successful it can turn out VERY well, in the box office if it’s ONLY fans who show up. THAT’s how big this franchise is.”

If that were true, we wouldn’t have needed JJ Abrams to come in and save this thing. Sorry, but the box office receipts for nearly every Trek film before this say otherwise (aside from TMP, which had the benefit this film does of being a fresh take and TVH, which had the greatest widespread appeal of any Trek flick). And Trek, even among fans, had essentially died. Fans certainly weren’t watching Voyager in its waning years, and they clearly didn’t tune in for Enterprise. Same goes for the last 2 TNG movies. Heck, they weren’t even there for Star Trek VI, the signoff for TOS. Actually, maybe they *were* the only ones there, given it’s pretty minimal box office take.

Point being – Star Trek cannot survive on the fumes of fandom. Some of the old fans have never even accepted TNG (the height of Trek’s popularity). This franchise needs a fresh, young fanbase to keep it going. You can’t make a movie without money, and the people with money are teenagers with their parent’s disposable income (despite the current financial situation, people still spend money at the movies). If JJ can lure them in with shiny ships & good-looking actors, but sneak in some smart content and social commentary, I think we’ll have a success on our hands.

273. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

I think the Original Series always had its share of violence….whether it was killing in self-defense, torture, serial killing/general murder, and the like.

The important thing was always–to me–that it was depicted in the proper context, meaning it is portrayed as something wrong or undesirably (and unfortunately) necessary at times, rather than something to be glorified.

The portrayal of violence and the ‘glorification’ of it are two very different things to me. One is appropriate, while is other certainly is not.

Villainy and misbehavior have never been depicted as something obsolete by the 23rd Century, even when perpetuated by those in Starfleet.

That is actually something I always liked about it. The nature of Man does not change, despite advancements in philosophy and its application to the state (in this case, the UFP). I think it make the stories better, and easier to identify with, while still promising us that this vision for the future is a better one than our present.

274. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

” while is other certainly is not” should read “while the other certainly is not”. Sorry.

275. sean - November 13, 2008

#273

Agreed. I always felt part of Star Trek’s message wasn’t that these negative traits would magically disappear, just that we, as humans, could rise above if we chose to do so.

276. Regula One - November 13, 2008

I have nothing against the “in-movie advertising” as you call it of Bud Classic or the BMW. Because it’s like what Stan Lee said about a similar situation in his comic books.

I’m just paraphasing here: DC always used made up cities, countries, and products in their comic books, like Gothom city, Kandak, Metropolis University, or they drove a “wizz-bang” brand car. And Stan felt that things like disconnected people from their world and they could relate to it. That’s why he had peter parker grow up in Queens, NY, his favorite baseball team is the Mets, he went to Empire State University. Or Reed Richards gives lechures at ESU, or Ghost Rider rides on a Harley Davidson. *

And even more recent; in a past issue of Spider-Man, there was a Stephen Colbert billboard across from the Baxter building, and there was also a Shrull reading Colbert new book “I am America and You Can Too” in a past issue of She-Hulk etc. etc.

*This is found on Stan Lee’s Mutants, Monsters, and Marvels DVD

He felt that by giving people products and locations that really exist, that people can relate more and have some attachment to the characters and their world.

It’s pretty much the same thing here.

Kirk was born in Iowa.
Starfleet Command is based in San Fransico
First Contact took place in Bozeman, Montana
Dr. Taylor orders Micholob beer.
Plexicorp used a Mac
Kirk, Spock, and McCoy wore Levi’s jeans on their camping trip.

Besides advertising helps pay the bills.

277. dalek - November 13, 2008

#276 so thats what a micholob is? A beer? I always thought it was a pizza topping :D

278. Regula One - November 13, 2008

#277 I thought that too, when I was six.

279. Regula One - November 13, 2008

Imagine a six year old ordering that at Pizza Hut. Hilarity insues.

280. Devon - November 13, 2008

#155 – “They don’t like Shatner.”

I think that’s completely unfounded and frankly pretty unfair to say. J.J. has been known to have meetings with Shatner, and if you even had bothered following through this movie from the beginning, they were trying to get him at the beginning stages! It was even reported that there was a “flashback scene” written for him a couple of months ago but they didn’t feel it felt right.

But since you made the call, perhaps you will tell us how Shatner can be put into this movie where it actually makes sense to the plot?

281. Lukas - November 13, 2008

Lovely – I’m from Cologne!

282. Negotiator - November 13, 2008

I think for Star Trek 12, “Prime” Spock will go back in time and fix all the F-ups by the JJ Supreme Court. This will continue on each following movie until every single Trekkie is happy with the results.

283. Weerd1 - November 13, 2008

282- there aren’t enough parallel timelines in the Multiverse for that…

284. Weerd1 - November 13, 2008

280- Not trying to nose in, but since there is apparently a different timeline where Kirk now doesn’t join the Academy until he’s in his 20s, and the Romulans are recognized conducting attacks around the time of his birth, the follow on history we know is no longer a constraint. For all we know now, Spock does not die in the 2280s, the Enterprise does not get destroyed, and the Enterprise A and B do not come into existence at the same times, if at all. Therefore Kirk is NOT killed on the 1701B, We might get some happy return to the “new” post Nemesis time frame where for whatever reason the Shat lives as a VERY old Kirk…

285. Enterprise - November 13, 2008

The only scene that I really liked was when Picard goes into his Ready Room and sees the hologram of Shinzon talking to him. That was cool.

Oh, and the end when Picard and Riker have that great talk and Riker leaves the ship for the final time.

286. Peter N - November 13, 2008

Max Geschwindigkeit! Hat JJ vielleicht diesen Film gesehen, und versucht, solch eine Parodie zu vermeiden?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1IcnBUlwAo

Grüsse and alle Deutsche Star Trek fans!

287. Peter N - November 13, 2008

#256

I expect a translation of my previous post (#286) tomorrow morning! Or there will be consequences….

288. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

280 – I’m too tired to debate you right now or to write Kirk’s return for this film, but how do you know how long I have or haven’t been following these news stories? Pretty unfair of you to assume as well …

289. Brett Campbell - November 13, 2008

280 – I can assure you that I have “bothered” to follow them for some time — for at least as long as the news has been reported. So again, please remove the beam from your eye before you try to remove a speck from mine. And please don’t call me unfair when you don’t even know me.

290. reinvigorated, reintroduced, and rebooted hitch1969© - November 13, 2008

#286

gay german star trek? man, that was some good stuff!! two thumbs and tranny ooops up! ding… dong!

i loved it!!!

=h=

291. RuFFeD_UP - November 13, 2008

LOL I love how 2 faced Trek fans can be this movie seems to be screwing with canon more than Enterprise ever did yet no ones bashing this film.

292. spiked canon - November 13, 2008

yes the link above is gay German Star Trek…and from a good old conservative, “not bad”

293. BaronByng - November 13, 2008

All this thread and no-one has mentioned the most important thing JJ forgot to put in the new Enterprise —

Where does the beryllium sphere go? In Episode 24, “Mission to Rhondarr,” there’s clearly marked loading ports with big arrows pointing to the hatch. Is this even Star Trek at all??

And I bet he changed the location of the chompers, too.

294. spiked canon - November 13, 2008

Baron it’s new…some things are different. I watched Spectacular Spiderman the other morning and would you believe it wasn’t anything like the movie!!!! OHMY!!!

295. Closettrekker - November 13, 2008

#291—They are not “screwing with canon”, as long as what is played out differently is a result of an alternate timeline (which is in itself canon and has been for 40+ years) created by interference with the past by the film’s chief antagonist.

According to the synopsis of the 20 minutes of footage reviewed, the attack upon the USS Kelvin occurs 4 days before Kirk is born. That makes it some dozen or so years before the Enterprise is even launched.

Anything seemingly contradictory to the bits of backstory described in episodes like “Where No Man Has Gone Before”, “The Menagerie”, “Obsession”, “The Conscience Of The King”, and “Court-Martial”, can easily be attributed to the ripple efffects of the timeline incursion.

The existence and possibility of alternate timelines due to timeline interference is legitimate and concrete ‘canon’, and has been since episodes like “Tommorow Is Yesterday”, “City On The Edge Of Forever”, and “Assignment: Earth”.

In order for you to claim that they are somehow “violating canon”, you would have to invalidate the very ‘canon’ those episodes established more than four decades ago.

Is that what you are saying?

296. TREKKIE369 - November 13, 2008

#295 ABSOLUTELY AGREE! One of the earliest rumors about the plot of this movie was that Romulans would go back in time and try to kill James T. Kirk, OR his FATHER, thus erasing James T. Kirk from the Face of the universe. What If when they killed his father with the Kelvin incident, accidentally killed him to late? Thus changing Kirk’s whole life.

JJ and crew say that their going completely by canon, and here are contradicting quotes from memory-alpha.org and JJ.
Memory-Alpha.org: “Looking back from the perspective of years, Kirk described himself as “positively grim” during that [Starfleet Academy] era.”
JJ: “So Kirk joins Starfleet and immediately he’s there he gets in trouble.”

Definitely sounds like alternate realities

297. Reign1701A - November 14, 2008

Hey guys I just got back from seeing the trailer and Quantum of Solace! The trailer is amazing. As others have reported, this movie just feels so epic. The special fx look amazing. There are a few quick shots of the Enterprise: one with its back turned to the camera zipping to warp…the other with the Enterprise rushing towards the camera front-on. From those angles, it looks like TOS Enterprise except with much larger nacelles, though its still very much familiar. The shot of the Enterprise under construction is of a similar angle to the photo released. Still looks a bit awkward, but I like it better after seeing it from different angles. The cuts were very very quick and I can’t wait til it’s released on the internet so I can freeze-frame.

298. Ian - November 14, 2008

Wow, just got back from Quantum of Solace and the Star Trek trailer was absolutely amazing! You must see it!

I heard people in the theater getting excited and several people around me saying, “no way!”

299. Holger - November 14, 2008

295: Hello Closettrekker. I have already posted a response to your time travel loophole theory in the thread ‘Trekmovie review on new Star Trek movie trailer’, it’s #210. It’s the last post there so far, so I suppose it didn’t get read much. In any case, that post is my response to your favorite theory ;-)

300. Joe Dickerson - November 14, 2008

In regards to the “what future will Spock go back too?” question, I have a very low degree of confidence “Spock prime” WILL go back. The way I’m reading between the lines on this movie is that Spock either A) dies to save the future/his friends (again) or he remains back in the late 22nd century in an “obi-wan” situation (before Luke finds him in the first movie). I don’t think Nimoy will return as Spock again – this is the last time he’ll play the role, the torch is passed….

301. thebiggfrogg - November 14, 2008

Re: Devon 239

“The past iterations where Product Placement also existed? Apple? Michelob? Commodore Computers? Kraft “Marshmellon” Dispenser? Steppenwolf and Roy Orbison songs? Yeah…… so what now?”

None of these were overly obtrusive or out of place. Apple, Michelob, and the songs were in the Earth past. It didn’t jar you out of the story and it wasn’t obnoxiously in your fast.

To my knowledge the “marshmellon” dispenser did not bear a huge Kraft logo. It was a movie tie-in product. The Commodore Computer was deep in the background of Kirk’s apartment in Trek II. Given Kirk’s fondness for antiques you could even justify it as a story item.

In a contemporary movie where it makes sense and it isn’t ridiculously in your face I can understand and even excuse it. No sense going to all the effort to create fake brands or blot out brands if our characters are having pizza in a 21st century restaurant. But not in the 23rd century that is on its way to some sort of alternative economy. That is what I hated in the Wars prequels, the jarring references to 1950s diners and obnoxious sports announcers in the galaxy far, far away. Seemed like an attempt at some sort of sophomoric humor.

At least the way things were described the BMW logo, thankfully omitted, was going to hog a lot of screen real estate (buy an f’ng ad, I say). The description of the Bud Classic sounds similar. Yuk!

302. Emotionally Logical - November 14, 2008

Hi everyone. Here is my attempt at a canon explanation for what we have seen so far. Sorry if someone has already posted this before. By the way, my spellng sucks.

A lot of people seem to be upset because kirk et all were assigned to the Enterprise as cadets. How could kirk and checkov be assigned at the same time? And on the surface, I would totally agree.

I am thinking that the reason kirk and checkov were at the acadamy at the same time and then posted to the Enterprise at the same time was because kirk was there for command training. He could have already been a commissioned officer previously serving aboard the faragaut but, just like Savik in Trek II, he was there for training like the Kobiashi Maru, and was wearing an acadamy uniform for his time spent there.

Checkov on the other hand was there for his regular training and graduated as an ensign. Checkov could have been a wiz kid like Wesley and went there early and graduated early, explaining the age discrepency. Didn’t someone say Pike referred to him as a “wiz kid”? We don’t know how much time has passed between the bar scene and the enterprise scene. And I’m not totally convinced what we saw was the initial launch of the enterprise.

McCoy would have been there for graduate training as a doctor just like kirk was there for command. Its sort of like when you have an MD in another country. You may have the training and the MD, but when you come to the US to practice, you need to go through the MCATS all over again (i think).

uhura and Sulu might have gone to the academy at the same time, but I think thats ok, because kirk was the youngest captain in starfleet history so it might make sense that where they are leutenants, he is a captain.

Also, the time that kirk would have been aboard the faragaut give time for Pike, Number one, Spock et all to have gone through the events of the cage.

Just a thought :-)

303. Andy Patterson - November 14, 2008

287

Now you know that other than you, and Uta that works in the grocery store down the street (and I doubt it’s that important to ask her), who am I going to ask to translate this. You remember that my German cultural knowledge is all learned from Hogan’s Heroes. Don’t have time right now to figure it out.

304. DengarX - November 25, 2008

One interesting point that I haven’t heard anyone discuss yet. The reason that the bridge of the Enterprise, and all other technology has changed is because Nero accidentally leaves something behind during the attack. Something that is technologically centuries ahead of its time. This allows the new Enterprise, and really everything in this “altered reality”, to be possible. And it’s all according to canon.

305. Vesta Moscoffian - November 30, 2010

I cannot think I have ever seen a blog using this several comments into it!

306. Julie Tansil - April 21, 2011

Hi! This is kind of off topic but I need some guidance from an established blog. Is it hard to set up your own blog? I’m not very techincal but I can figure things out pretty fast. I’m thinking about making my own but I’m not sure where to start. Do you have any ideas or suggestions? Thanks

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