Abrams and Orci Talk Space Battles, Bar Fights and more January 15, 2009
by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Abrams, Orci/Kurtzman, Star Trek (2009 film) , trackback
In a couple of new interviews conducted at the Televisions Critics Association winter press tour, Star Trek director JJ Abrams and co-writer Roberto Orci took time out from promoting their TV show Fringe to talk a little Trek with SciFi Wire. Both were asked about combat, both in space and in a bar in Iowa.
Starfleet battles
SciFi asked screenwriter Roberto Orci about the space battles in the new Star Trek and if they were moving away from the traditional ’submarine battle’ style of Trek combat:
Orci: It’s safe to say that that has not been totally thrown away, but imagine super-advanced submarines. It still maintains some of the maritime origin battle-wise, either a sub battle or ship to ship, cannon to cannon, Master and Commander battle. Just, I think, on a different pace.
And in a separate interview director JJ Abrams clarified:
Abrams: They’re big ships, so I’d say that there is a little bit of that, but there’s a little bit more flash and fun and action than you’ve seen before. There are some pretty spectacular visual effects. ILM outdid themselves. It’s amazing.
Kirk’s bar battle
In the press preview shown in November (see TrekMovie report), there was a scene where a young James T. Kirk gets into a bar fight (before going into Starfleet Academy). SciFi Wire asked Orci what he had to say to fans who feel this is out of character for Kirk:
Orci: Well, they cite the quote that he was a stack of books with legs in the Academy. The truth is that in our movie there’s nothing that precludes Kirk from being a stack of books at the Academy. What you see is what he is before the Academy. Some would argue that him being a rebellious bar fighter in our movie is absolutely consistent with canon.
UPDATE: when asked about fans reaction to this scene Abrams pointed noted, again, that he is not just looking at the core fans:
Abrams: I would say that the fans of Star Trek will be very happy with the movie. It honors what’s come before, but I didn’t really make the movie just for the people who are already inside, because I like Star Trek but I was never a massive fan. So I think the movie’s going to not satisfy everyone, of course. It can’t. But it’ll satisfy most of both.”.
Go to SciFi wire to see much more from the two interviews with Orci (also covering Transformers and Cowboys and Aliens) and Abrams (including discussing Shatner). There is also an additional interview with Abrams on Fringe.
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Comments»
Great interview. Look forward to the faster pace.
Maybe they called young Kirk’s motorcycle a ‘garbage scow’…?
I’m excited that Orci referenced Master and Commander, one of the best Star Trek movies ever!
BobOrci: Good point on the stack of books with legs.
Both are a part of James Kirk.
He’s given a challenge, so he rises o it. Almost like having ADD, where he’s hyperfocussing.
Drunk in Iowa Bar: I bet in a prime QM reality, you’re a stack of books with legs!
PineKirk: Why you — @#$*!!
OK OK… I’m just glad we’re in the same calendar year, so this maddening half-preview talk will soon be over. I trust ILM. I look forward to the new take on Kirk. I KNOW it’s not going to be Shatner redux.
There’s an old saying: It’s not change that hurts. It’s anticipating (or resisting) change that hurts.
The stack of books with legs just shows how committed he is to accomplishing what he sets out to do. Apparently in the film, it took Captain Pike to coax him into going into Starfleet almost on a dare and that doesn’t preclude him thoroughly dedicating himself to that end while he was there.
I hope in this new movie they don’t lose the one element of Kirk’s character that I always enjoyed… the love Kirk had for his ship.
The Next Gen series seemed to get away form the romantic connection that a Captain has for his ship.
None of the other captains in the star trek universe never quite had that affection for their ship.
In “naked time” Kirk’s biggest fear was losing his ship, losing her.
In the the novel “Destiny” the author shows the Enterprise was a thread in Kirks life starting when he was a boy when he first visited the bridge of the Enterprise under Captain Robert April, George Kirk was a security officer at the time. The Enterprise was painted as Kirk’s first true love.
The spark that led him to the academy, then into command.
2
So he hits the guy in the bar because he insulted the bike, not because they…
Well, it’s a matter of pride.
#3 I sure hope you’re joking……
I wish it was May……
It’s funny that Bob references the “stack of books with legs” comment from WNMHGB. Kirk was barely fleshed out in the second pilot, if at all, and his extra-curricular propensities became known as season 1 unraveled.
Kirk is obviously highly intelligent. Though he never comes across as a bookworm like Picard. He’s more of an action hero. The old TOS writers’ guide perhaps made him more like Picard than he ended up being.
I just cannot imagine Kirk sitting down and reading a book. “I was absolutely grim!” LOL
Drunk in Iowa bar: I didn’t say it should be hauling garbage, I said it should be hauled away AS Garbage….
Ok, sorry….just had ta do it….. :p
4
I agree. Kirk and fisticuffs. Five of the seven previous movies he is in and dozens of episodes makes “Kirk is a brawler” canon.
“I just cannot imagine Kirk sitting down and reading a book.”
Are you kidding? Kirk practically wrote the Kama Sutra!
13. CmdrR
LOL!
“I just cannot imagine Kirk sitting down and reading a book. ”
really? I have no trouble imagining him as real person with multiple facets to his personality
#13
ROTFLOL!!!
Couldn’t have said it better!!!
Kirk has elements of both.
He reads books, and quotes from them.
He drop-kicks adversaries.
He is a multidimentional character, a highly-intelligent astronaught, diplomat, fighter and ladies man.
All of these things, and these combined with determination and leadership skills, give him the rare, special qualities of a Starship Captain.
I suspect his love of the Enterprise and her Crew are developed in the movie. He sees the Enterprise the first time, and sharing a trial by fire with her and her crew, brings out an all-encompassing bond.
The Enterprise as seen and felt by Kirk:
She’s a lady, with needs, who will never let you down, who will fight for you, go to hell and heaven and back for you and with you, and who needs you as much as you need her.
And when you are tired and weary from the trials of life, she will always be the one to bring you home.
“Nothing is more important than my ship.”
Im hoping for the fying double legged drop kick
“Abrams: Well, the guy sort of asks for it a little bit in that scene.”
That has absolutely nothing to do with the bar stuff. That was in reference to the Red Shirt.
i was always under the impression that the “stack of book with legs” was while Kirk was an instructor at the Academy, with Mitchell in his class.
I’m sure while Kirk was a “student” at the Academy he had plenty of altercations…it’s just his nature. Not starting them, so to speak, but definitely participating.
13/CmdrR
I suspect he dictated the Kama Sutra.
Kirk: “Hey, that feels good. Yeoman? Can you write this down?”
Rand: “Sure, Captain. As soon as my orgasmic convulsions stop, and you untie my hands.”
@ #2, Surely it should have been Scotty who would be in the fight scene then, eh?
;-D
The new US Army combatives manual (FM 3-25.150) actually calls the “foot-in-the-stomach” (AKA Tomoe Nage in Judo) throw the “Captain Kirk” throw in the new manual.
It’s a fact that Kirk respected Sam Cogley’s love of books, but I never saw a literary bent in him.
Spock gave him “A Tale of Two Cities” due to his ‘fondness for antiques,’ and not specifically books.
It is canon that he is a book-guy, but the show never gave him the chance to show it. Picard’s love of Shakespeare was made apparent, especially by Q, and the open Complete Works in his Ready Room.
I suppose Kirk’s reference to the poem in “City on the Edge of Forever” could be a clue, as could his knowledge of the preamble to the US Constitution in “Omega Glory.” But it never added to the character’s development.
18.:
I’m also hoping for that Gymnastic/judo rolling throw-thing that TOS Kirk was famous for….
I’ll bet that Kirk’s character is the classic scenario :
“Our hero has the abilities, but not yet the sense of focus to use them, pretty much acts like a butthead, then there’s some pivotal event (and usually somebody dies in the process) and everything shifts into place, and our hero starts banging on all cylinders and kicking butt like we expected him to do all along.”
“Some would argue that him being a rebellious bar fighter in our movie is absolutely consistent with canon.”
Yes, like the two guys who wrote the script! :-)
AJ:
Correction: it’s not the preamble to the Constitution, it’s the “eeb plebmista..”
:-)
Regardless of whether you think the bar fight is in or out of character for Kirk, I understand from prior interviews that in the movie his life follows a different path because his father dies prematurely due to Nero’s timeline interference. That gives the writers a fair amount of freedom; however, if the whole story’s an altered timeline, doesn’t that suggest that what you’re seeing isn’t really how the TOS crew came together?
#7 I don’t think they will lose that part of Kirk since it is a major major part of who he is. I felt they really had this down in the trailer where he comes up to the Enterprise being constructed. That shot on his face is really great since the look on his face is that ship is his destiny.
10
“I just cannot imagine Kirk sitting down and reading a book.”
Hmm never seen ST II: The Wrath of Khan then? You know, the movie where Spock gives him an “antique” copy of A Tale of Two Cities and Kirk reads it.
Thing about Kirk is that he is an athlete and an intellectual.
When asked by Kkan, “Are you familiar with Milton?” Kirk was. He made literary references all the time. Not a bookworm, but well read. If he couldn’t outsmart you, then he’d dropkick you and lay a double-handed chop on your neck. Kirk was intelligent to the place that he would annoy Spock by beating him at chess.
I wish they would do the drop kick; I have a feeling it’s not going to happen in this one but it would be fantastic if they did it. And Kirk is a bookworm–he’s up on his Milton, remember. I’m glad to hear the acknowledgment of Kirk being a stack of books with legs…
RE: Books.
Actually, didn’t Kirk, upon seeing the mess in Cogley’s quarters ask him why he didn’t just access the information from the Starbase databanks?
It would seem Kirk preferred his reading material in electronic format (which is really incredible foresight since there was no such thing as an e-book in 1966) but did appreciate the passion in Cogley’s speech.
Of course, “stack of books with legs” contradicts the whole damn thing anyway.
Sometimes I wonder if JJ is a Denebian Slime Devil.
RE: Chess
Kirk could make an illgical move if it would allow him to win five moves down the line. Even though Spock could probably predict the outcome of a move much better than Kirk, he could not make such a move and probably palyed a very measured and defensive game.
Kirk could also quote then entire Preamble to the Constitution without looking at it.
I too want to see a Kirk-style coreographed fight.
I love the scene in the air force headquarter from “Tomorrow is Yesterday” where Kirk throws his entire body horizontally against the three airmen and then does his nutty swing in the doorway over one guys head
What I’m trying to reconcile is the difference between the two fates of George Kirk, Sr.
In the “original” timeline, George was deployed on a deep-space mission and disappeared while Jim Kirk was young. In the new timeline, George is killed. How would this change the impact to Jim Kirk’s life? In the original timeline, George was already gone, presumed dead.
So, if this new timeline alters Kirk’s history that much just because his father goes from being presumed dead to being really dead, what does that say about the psyche of James Kirk? How does this minor difference make such a drastic change to make James Kirk now James Dean-Kirk?
Makes no sense, other than to surmise that the writers just wanted to change it because they could.
I’m going back and forth on this movie.
“A difference which makes no difference IS no difference.”
Quoting the classics does not a bookworm make.
Perhaps a “stack of books with legs” refers simply to Kirk’s great intelligence.
Who knows? It was his first episode, and Gene was obviously trying to keep it “cerebral,” while making Kirk more of an action hero than Pike was. Kirk’s early days are still largely unexplored in canon.
Though, I now remember the scene on the bus in TVH where Kirk recalls the trash authors of the 1980s. A ’stack of books’ indeed. Just not the ones we thought ;-)
Episode: Errand of Mercy
Scene: Kirk and Spock are harassed by a Klingon soldier and Spock restrains Kirk before anything more can happen.
Afterwards, the following exchange:
Kirk: You really didn’t think I was going to beat his head in did you?
Spock: I thought you might….
38:
The difference would be up to Winona Kirk. What did she do after George dies on the Kelvin?
She obviously stayed in Iowa, and Jim and Sam Kirk grew up in an environment which included an abusive uncle. I hate to put it in stark terms, but Kirk’s mom perhaps withdrew into the doldrums of a US rural existence, and her gifted kids were left to fend for themselves. Pike is obviously a positive influence on young Kirk in this timeline and sorts him out.
#34- Or a Cardassian Vole!
I’m not familiar with the fate of George Kirk Prime. I know it’s not 100% canon and obviously comes from one or more of the books. The only real origin story I read was the recent Shatner novel where George Sr. was alive and well and disappointed in his two offspring, George Jr. was getting into pretty serious trouble, and little Jimmy, whose faith in the Federation was completely destroyed by their slow response to the problem at Tarsus IV, is following in his brother’s footsteps rather than those of his father. Of course, Shatner’s version was written in the real Trek universe and is supposed to fit neatly into the holes of existing canon, which to Shatner and the Reeves-Stevens’ would be anything put on film or previously written by them.
lets not forget that Kirk got in fights with Finnegan and probably others. I think they could have been threatened by his good looks and book smarts.
#38
Where is it said that George Kirk in the “original timeline” disappeared? I’m not aware of that being stated anywhere other than in Harve Bennett’s proposed prequel.
Actually Kirk, never got into a fight with Finnegan, instead he had to suffer Finnegan’s pranks until the upperclassman got bored and settled on someone else.
If there was one thing Kirk always wanted to do, it was to beat the tar out of Finnegan.
3/13 lol, yeah, no kidding…
As far as the faster pace of battle, well yeah, makes sense. Wrath of Khan was only slow paced really because it was a surprise attack, and then because both ships were somewhat beat up and in a nebula, so it fit the movie. Flash forward to TNG erra, seems like during the show run all of the battles were needlessly slow paced, probably due to budget stuff, and I think it detracted from the show, at least as far as realism went. Then go to Nemesis, and I think that despite the fact the movie FAILed it had the best Trek ship fight ever so I’ll be happy if what’s in this movie is similar…just not against a cloaked ship again hopefully. It’ll be interesting to see how they match up a mid 23rd century ship against a later 24th century one. As far as technology that Romulan ship should be able to rip the E apart without a second thought, so they’ll have to get creative.
On the whole Ive never been that big of a Star Trek fan comment, yeah, they can say that because they know we’re going to go see this movie no matter what at this point. Even if they said “well I dont know if they trekkies will like it, but everyone else will” we’d still go and see it. Makes it look like they’ve made a big movie with low Trek quality, I hope not, but honestly those comments lead me to think that. I wish they’d give us some reason why us Trekkies are going to like it, aside from the whole “you get to see how it all came together…its magical, wooooo” bit. I want to know what at its core makes it good Star Trek, and not just a big sifi action movie.
Satisfying fans or non-fans… which is the lesser of two weevils?
Yeah…why would you make a STAR TREK movie for STAR TREK fans? That would be just plain crazy!!
This guy is the king of terrible quotes!!
Stop speaking publicly, Abrams! You sound ridiculous!
AJ: If you accept any of the novels as back-story, it’s been a generally accepted notion that Kirk grew up in Iowa regardless. As for what Winona did, I would guess it would be pretty much the same in either instance: he’s either dead, or we think he’s dead… I just don’t see how much of a change this could bring about.
45. Joe: There are a number of novels that mention this, and someone needs to check me on this, but I believe it’s been established by those in the TREK creative teams somewhere. Might not have been mentioned on screen, but it had to come from somewhere for it to be a generally known item.
My thinking has always been that Kirk joined Starfleet because of a combination of several things:
- wanting to find his father
- wanting to be like his father
- wanting to separate himself from brother Sam, the science guy
- wanting to escape the bounds of Iowa and explore in the biggest way he could
And lots of other things. But I really don’t see anything in any TOS story that would fit with this new James Dean paradigm.
The only new factor in this whole thing is the abusive uncle, and that just seems a little too much of a cliche for me. Kirk is a hero because he was born to be, not because he had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it. Remember, Kirk was inspired by Horatio Hornblower, who wasn’t at all a reluctant hero. He recognized when he had opportunities to do great things. The only thing he was hesitant about was marriage.
My two cents.
They should just announce that they are going ahead with a sequel and will fill in some gaps.
Hey. Kirk is very talented. He can Fight and he can love. He is a master at chess and poker. He is the Master at Fisbin Loves his Corbomite.He is a Fighter and a lover. He loves his Ship and loves His frends. So everything im seeing is keeping with Kirks Canon.
#50 and #38
My understanding is that only the elements of the novels that are put on screen are canon. Therefore the backstory of the “original timeline” George Kirk is almost certainly not established in canon. The new creative team are going to put elements of some of the novels in the new movie. However, my understanding is that in most of the novels that George Kirk doesn’t die when Captain Kirk is young and in fact George is involved in the construction of the Enterprise. If these elements are in the new film, that would explain the change in Captain Kirk’s backstory.
Boy, they sure don’t know how to sell this thing to me.
Actually, Bob, is there any line from Shakespeare in the movie?
What??? Again a one-to-one ship battle???? Hell with that!!! I want to see fleet-vs-fleet!!! Like in DS9 episode “sacrifice of angels” that was awesome!!!!
Yeah… anyone ever notice that the Enterprise was always the “only ship in the quadrant” – that means the other 11 starships were crowded into the other 3 quadrants What the hell kind of policy is that ,Starfleet????
By the way.. in WNMHGB Gary Mitchell says to Kirk “I’m finally getting around to reading some of that longhair stuff you like.”"
Kirk was a reader… he also doesn’t just accept Spock’s gift in TWOK he reads it… by the end of the film when David comes to see him in his quarters.. he’s halfway tthrough it.. even with the batlle and Genesis and all.
“Orci: Well, they cite the quote that he was a stack of books with legs in the Academy. The truth is that in our movie there’s nothing that precludes Kirk from being a stack of books at the Academy. What you see is what he is before the Academy. Some would argue that him being a rebellious bar fighter in our movie is absolutely consistent with canon.”
I just wanted to repost that so fans can marvel at its glittering rightness.
Thank you. Excellent interview all ’round.
What the heck is wrong with the “submarine style” of traditional ST battles? It’s a lot more realistic than the recent style of space battle scenes, “pioneered” by Star Wars, and continued by Battlestar Galactica in which these tiny little gnats fire pea shooters at huge multi-million ton starships, and the battlewagons fire feeble bursts of fire back at them and constantly miss. What the hell?! This is supposed to be the far future with powerful energy weapons and yet we see the tactics and relative firepower of a WWII combat in the pacific.
Star Trek and Babylon 5 style battles, with massive battlewagons firing massive bursts of energy, and giant starships erupting in balls of flame, are far more visually interesting and believable.
Who cares about the “origin” of the characters? I don’t care what Gilligan did before the 3 hour tour or what Colonel Hogan’s life was like before Stalag 13, or to see the “actual” baseball exploits of Sam Malone. I can’t name one non-parody series remake show with a new cast that has ever been worth a crap. And need I mention Muppet Babies, the Flintstone Kids, or Tiny Tunes?
49. Katarian Eggs – January 15, 2009
“Yeah…why would you make a STAR TREK movie for STAR TREK fans? That would be just plain crazy!!
That’s not what he said, get over it.” Go back and read it.
Remember that in “The Ultimate Computer” Kirk also quotes John Masefield’s poem “Sea-Fever”:
“All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.”
The implications about his character is that the man is a romantic, well-read, literary man.
oh good Lord. “Stack of book with legs” wasn’t implying his love of books.. Mitchell was implying that he was always studying… a nerd.. reading up and studying things. His nose was always in his book in class. Get it?
“As the Earth poet Shakespeare wrote, ‘That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet’.” –By Any Other Name
“All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.” –The Ultimate Computer
“Second star to the right, and straight on ’til morning.” –Star Trek VI
I mean, it’s clear that Picard is much more into classical literature than Kirk is, but Kirk’s hardly illiterate.
63 – The two are not mutually exclusive, and the statement could imply both meanings. Some people love reading the books that they have to study. Kirk, IMHO, enjoys both.
As do I. So, yes, I am smart enough to get it. Good lord, indeed. Don’t be so condescending.
How many times did we see Kirk say to Spock :
“That was required reading at the Academy!”
Kirk was a very serious student in my opinon. Also remember that Kirk is fond of Lincoln (I presume the definative biography comes out in 2260 or so :)
The “long haired stuff ” must be that “Whale Weaps not” poem that Kirk remembers.
I think cheating in the Kobayashi maru also has to do with Kirk’s competitive need to recieve the best grades.
Maybe the bar fight will happen after a Nausican tells Kirk that he can’t drive a stick shift!
BobOrci:
From the SciFi Wire article:
“Orci: The response is that the Enterprise is not, nor has it ever been, a pleasure yacht. It’s a ship that’s able to warp space around it to several times the weight of gravity. So the idea that it somehow couldn’t handle one Earth atmosphere of gravity was not something I think anyone who would board that ship would ever want to contemplate. The rationale for building it into space is when you have flimsy things that never have to be in gravity, but that’s not what the starship Enterprise is. ”
————–
This is really pedantic, and I realize you are a screenwriter and not a scientist (then again, I am not a scientist either), but… I think that rather than saying, “the weight of gravity,” I think you should have said, “the *force* of (normal Earth) gravity.” Gravity itself does not have weight. It is a force that acts between objects in the universe… objects that have mass. Mass warps spacetime and all that.
Also, “one Earth atmosphere of gravity” is, I think, a confused (or confusing) statement. Again, I think referencing the force of normal Earth gravity (1G) would have been more clear. The mass of the Earth determines it’s surface gravity. The atmosphere is a separate issue.
Finally, I believe the rationale for building spacecraft in orbit has more to do with the cost, amount of fuel and enormous size of the rocket boosters necessary to lift an entire craft into space. Flimsiness has little or nothing to do with it. For instance, NASA intends to assemble Mars-bound vehicles in low-Earth orbit for their Constellation Program. It is unlikely they would be flimsy, as they need to land and operate on Mars.
I’m curious, did you have a science adviser vet your script for scientific inaccuracies before filming began? I know Carolyn Porco was brought on board as a science adviser for the space sequences and how they are realized by ILM. But what about the technobabble (however brief) that the actors had to recite? Was that polished by scientists?
I think you guys are forgetting that a lot of young men are kind of (okay, REALLY) impulsive and can be aggressive. This Kirk would be at least a few years younger, and still holding onto that rebellious teenager mindset, as far as I can see it. So, I don’t think a little less controlled of a Jim Kirk would be a bad thing, or completely out of character. In fact, I think it would suit him just fine!
#7
“In the the novel “Destiny” the author shows the Enterprise was a thread in Kirks life starting when he was a boy when he first visited the bridge of the Enterprise under Captain Robert April, George Kirk was a security officer at the time. The Enterprise was painted as Kirk’s first true love.”
Thankfully the new movie is more a reboot than a prequel, but the above paragraph is what I despise when people do prequels. Kirk was the greatest captain of the Enterprise….oh, but wait, what you never knew is that his DAD served on the Enterprise….oh wait, his dad suggested the NAME Enterprise….rolls eyes.
There is no way in hell, that none of that stuff wouldn’t have come up in conversation on the ship in an ep. “When my father served on this ship…” would’ve been heard at least once. It’s the whole Ent or Darth Vader built Threepio thing.
I was stoked when the book “Final Frontier” was released because I wanted to read a book about Robert April…..when they got to the whole Kirk Sr. names Enterprise bit, I stopped reading and moved on to something else.
Now, as this is a reboot, I don’t care what they do or establish because it’s in a fresh new universe. But trying to fit that stuff into the original show is just ludicrous.
63
Maybe in the 23rd century they’ve evolved to the point where people no longer classify people as ‘nerds.’ :-) Maybe, as Uhura said in a different context, they’ve “learned not to fear words.” :-)
64
I’ll add one of my favorites to that list:
“Let me help.” A hundred years or so from now, a novelist will write a classic using that theme. He’ll recommend those three words even over “I love you.”
Kirk, COTEOF
67
Sigh. Based on the technologies presented in TOS (M/AM reactors, artificial gravity, inertia dampers, sustained anti-gravity, transporters, etc.) building a starship in space or on the ground is easily doable.
The question then becomes, what factors would you use to choose where to do it? I would argue that one of the major overriding concerns would be, What is best for the workers that have to do it?
And I would answer, on the ground, in a “shirt-sleeve” environment.
Besides, on-the-ground means that this film never directly competes with the terrific space yard sequences we see in TMP, which I also like.
67.
Oh, come on… what’s wrong with my explanation?;)
Do you not agree that warp speed is achieved by the extreme curvature of spacetime around the ship? And if so, we know from Einstein’s general theory of relativity that the geometric way to think of gravity is to treat it as the curvature of spacetime (warp), as opposed to thinking of gravity as a “field.” Therefore, warp speed creates huge gravitational forces around the ship, surely far in excess of anything felt on earth.
The script was vetted. There were no suggestions or changes made based on their input. Their input was more about the movement of ships and other stellar events for ILM and for JJ to visualize.
Ding, ding, ding … BobOrci is in the house. Let the bleating and braying begin. (Hang in there, Bob. I have no doubt the vast majority has your back.)
71
Hey Bob just point them there built-on-the-ground naysayers to The Cloud Minders. Surely if maintaining a city suspended in the sky indefinitely is possible to Federation tech, then lifting a starship to Earth orbit certainly would be.
#3 Starquack
I could not agree more. Master and Commander was so Trek!! Great reference material A and O!! I just wish Peter Weir had direct Nemesis :P
#39
- Quoting the classics does not a bookworm make. -
I suppose it helps to read the stuff before quoting it with heart and mind. :)
#54
LOL
#62
Yup.
I always liked how Kirk and Picard where opposites. I like how Kirk was the serious student who got more easy going and relaxed later in his career, where as Picard was cocky and arrogant at the academy and as a result of his fight with the nausicans led Picard to become the more celebral and reserved man Picard became.
I liked how Kirk ‘cheated’ on the Kobayashi Maru in TWOK but to me this does not make me think Kirk as a bad boy. I personally dont like the idea of Kirk groping Uhura in the bar, seems out of charcter and cliched.
But at the same time it doesn’t bother me because I see this film as a separate entity, this cannot be canon therefore it will be separte from before. I believe it will stil refresh Star Trek but one thing for shure is that this is not our Star Trek.
I want to love this film but these changes are making it hard to fit into canon.
I’ve got no problem with Kirk doing both. Hell, I’ve been in barfights, and I studied my ass off at college.
but the alternate tinmeline does give them a pallete to screw things up but I was hoping the timeline be rest at the end like in episodes like Yesterday’s Enterprise.
67, 71, 73 – RE: Enterprise built on the ground
I’ve had long discussions with people on this board about this… and I was one of the ones complaining about fuel efficiency in lifting such a massive starship into orbit. Someone intelligent pointed out that there is something that COMPLETELY gets around this problem, it’s been part of Trek canon since TOS, and features in almost every episode…
It’s called a tractor beam.
Then, of course, you have anti-grav units.
Federation technology, as of TOS era, was more than sufficient to allow a starship to be built on the ground and tractored or anti-grav-ed into orbit.
Bob, I love your SciFi Wire quote because it shows how much realism you guys put behind the technology of Trek… like with QMTT you apply realphysik to Warp Field Theory. I always assumed the Warp Field to be a subspace displacement, and not a collosal gravity source. And I thought that Warp Field Calibration had to happen outside an atmosphere, and away from a planets gravity well. So I expected the Enterprise to lift from the Iowa soil A) by means of her own antigravity drive or B) pulled by the ballet of some huge tugboats…
79: I also seem to remember an episode where they have the power to get out of Earth orbit even when the engines were sputtering. Say it with me now, naysayers… “Tomorrow is Yesterday” :)
There might have been examples of ’submarine combat’ throughout Trek movies and all the series’. However the first battle sequence from ‘First Contact’ was fast and frenetic. For DS9 there are plenty of huge battle scenes that are action packed as well.
Kirk was excellent at hand-to-hand combat. I guess the big questions are when/where/how he became so proficient in H2H combat. Before, during or after Starfleet?
Being a stack of books with legs does not disallow for the fact that he could have been a “scrapper”.
Re: 82. That’s because the DS9 fx crew were watching Babylon 5. No joke.
Re: 83 I’m thinking there is intensive H2H training available at the Academy. In their first encounter in “The Omega Glory”, Captain Tracy displays some scary moves and beats Kirk’s ass.
#76—”… it doesn’t bother me because I see this film as a separate entity, this cannot be canon therefore it will be separte from before.”
It cannot be canon?
And yet the possibility and potential for the creation of an alternate timeline due to interference with the past has been itself “canon” since the very first season of Star Trek…hmmm.
So then, I suppose that “The City On The Edge Of Forever”, “Tommorow Is Yesterday”, “Assignment: Earth”, “Yesteryear” (TAS), “Yesterday’s Enterprise” (TNG), STIV: TVH, ST: FC, and pretty much the entirety of ENT (just to name a few examples) are also not canon?
How do you reconcile that exactly?
To each his own, but it seems to me that the differences in this timeline (assuming it is permanent) are going to be established quite canonically.
Speaking as one who was incredibly studious in school, I can say that there’s a big difference between reading for the sake of a grade and reading for the sake of reading. I can’t quote anything I’ve read because I had to. I can quote all sorts of stuff that I read for the pure enjoyment of it.
Kirk Prime is obviously well-read in literature, not only from his own planet but from others, and the fact that he can quote various passages tells me that he reads for the pleasure of it.
When you do something because you have to, doesn’t it make you a little miffed? No wonder Kirk was “positively grim”! He was reading things he didn’t choose to read! But the stuff he quotes – never a technical journal, note – it’s stuff he’s enjoyed reading.
This new Kirk seems to be missing that. But it’s really too soon to tell. We’re all speculating too much.
84
“Re: 82. That’s because the DS9 fx crew were watching Babylon 5. No joke.”
Yep. And like Trek in the 90’s, the era where it was going downhill, they got it wrong. In Babylon 5, huge starships FELT like huge starships. In DS9 you had Miranda’s and other ships flying like X-Wings. Ditto for the opening battle in FC. Contrast that to the Reliant, which unlike the Miranda’s in DS9 FELT like a huge starship.
#87—”This new Kirk seems to be missing that. But it’s really too soon to tell.”
I’d say just a little bit!
:)
We’ve only seen a minute or so of him, and from the 20 minutes of footage reviewed thusfar, he seems to be the same intelligent guy we knew before. There is no reason to assume he wouldn’t apply that intelligence to his studies just as he did in the previous timeline. Such an assumption doesn’t make any sense to me.
Even if we never hear Jim Kirk quote a famous author in some moment of confiding his thoughts in “Bones”, or someone else he’s close to in this film, it still doesn’t preclude the notion that he is well-read. We have not yet seen, nor do we need to see, every single facet of his character fleshed out in a two hour movie. That’s asking a bit much, IMO.
Re: 88 It’s a conundrum really. On one hand, we have starships moving at incomprehensible speeds, hundreds of times the speed of light, and yet we see these ships lumbering along like Ironclads. It has more to do with perception and aesthetics than accuracy.
Remember, also, that the space battles are taking place at sublight speeds, not warp. I’ve never felt it was practical to have a warp speed battle. You’d always be zipping by each other.
I’ve always held the notion (maybe I read it somewhere) that starships at sublight speed are a little more sluggish, wallow a bit more. At warp speed, everything goes out the window. But from a storytelling standpoint, the ships have to be in close proximity for a good amount of time. That means they have to move slower, relative to each other. The larger the ship, the slower the perceived action needs to be.
It will be interesting to see how they pull off a high-speed space battle with big starhips. “Not the local bulk cruisers, mind you. I’m talking the big Corellian ships now.”
Oh, wait…
But if warfare progressed from where it is now with jet pilots, the victor is usually the one who locks and fires first – long before any visual contact.
That’s why M5 was such an efficient killer, it could shoot, alter course, and attack a second target before the first target was even struck.
Mr. Bob, you think that a young Kirk, in any canon interpretation, would sexually harrass girls in a bar and get into indistriminate fights?
NOOOOOO!!!!! (grabs monitor in frenzy and bangs head on desk repeatedly)
Not the final product of a man who is Captain James T. Kirk. But a larval stage of a man on his way to self actualization might.
Bob, Bob, I have been hit on by jerks in bars. As a matter of fact, it has happened a few times, and there has even been a fight such as the one which has been described in the movie. As a woman, I must firmly hold to my conviction that a punk, whether in larval form or no, is not going to morph into a starship captain with character and values. However, since I have yet to see the film, I will withhold further judgment until May 9th, then come back here and tell you if you are indeed right or wrong…
#95—-I think we also have to bear in mind that young Jim Kirk has, by all accounts, had a few too many in the scene in question.
:)
Closet#96- meh…
#97—-Haven’t you ever done anything out of character after putting more than a few away???
Something you may have even been embarassed or ashamed of the next day???
I know I have. Not yesterday, of course– but 10, 20 years ago? You bet!
Let’s ask Harry!
Oh wait, I said embarassed or ashamed!
Yes perhaps Harry isn’t the one to ask. ;) [We love you Harry!]
Denise — I reach. I’ve never bought the excuse that “alcohol made me do it.” Character is character. A line from that horrible Harrison Ford remake of Sabrina comes to mind. When someone asks her dad what his character was like as a child, he replies, “Shorter.” That’s how I imagine James T. Kirk — driven, dedicated and a natural born leader. I just can’t see him in any universe as some aimless guy, no matter what circumstance.
@95…
Denise, I was in one of these fights too…
The guy is frustrated, hangs out in Iowa, and has no idea where he can put all the smartness and energy he is bursting with to good use…
So he drinks a few and talks to Uhura, who is supersweet, smart and Starfleet…
thorsten!!! Why haven’t you been in chat?
@101…
I was on assignment without net access, Liz…
Oh, well we did miss you!
95. Fair enough. Wait and see if you think he crosses the line.
#98+99 “ask Harry”
My rule of thumb is that if I have too many drinks one night, do something I deeply regret by the next day, feel embarrassed and ashamed by the memory of it, I have some more drinks until I forget what’s troubling me!
Closet#98- James Kirk is an iconic character of mythological status, the consumate hero. I do not want to bring him down to my level, or that of the “everyman” that our dear Mr. Pine talked about a few months ago. I want him to be born on a pedestal and stay there until he gets pushed off of that frakking bridge in Generations (ugh!). So to answer your question, yes, I have imbibed copious amounts of spirits and done something I later regretted, but I do not ever see Kirk doing the same. He is the guy who would make me stop drinking, take me home, ward off my drunkun advances and tuck me in: The Galactic Boy Scout.
And as for Harry… le giggle…
I have seen the scene in question and Kirk does come off as a bit of a jerk, but actually that works for the movie as it shows he is undisciplined and gives him his starting point for the arc that takes him to captain. Pine recently commented on this as well.
That being said, someone else who went to the preview made an interesting observation when we chatted about it later. The cadets that come to Uhura’s defense actually didn’t seem to be Starfleet’s finest and actually came across as rather thuggish, especially the guy who appeared to be the leader of the posse.
I’d have to go with Denise on this one.
Kirk likes his women beautiful, smart, awake, and consensual.
I’d guess that Bob’s Kirk has spent many an hour in the rural Iowan honky-tonks, and is simply going through the motions after a few drinks. His bike’s probably parked outside, too.
And, Denise, that’s not a “boy scout,” but how any man should act who has an ounce of civility. Kirk as we know him has it in spades.
Anthony, thank you for weighing in. We love hearing from our fearless leader (you ought to do it more often…).
AJ#108- You would take me home and hold my hair back if I upchucked my LIITs, I just know it, you sweetie you.
#106—”He is the guy who would make me stop drinking, take me home, ward off my drunkun advances and tuck me in: The Galactic Boy Scout.”
“Jim Kirk was many things, but he was ‘never’ a boyscout!”—Carol Marcus
:)
“James Kirk is an iconic character of mythological status, the consumate hero….I want him to be born on a pedestal and stay there until he gets pushed off of that frakking bridge in Generations…”
He is indeed. But consider this.
“There’s a distinction to be made between heroes and gods, which I think we sometimes get confused about…Let me explain my theory of heroism. If a man jumps into a raging torrent to save a drowning child, he performs an heroic act. If the same man jumps into the same torrent to save the same child, but does so with a ball and chain attached to his leg, he’s not less heroic; he’s more heroic.
How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life…If you look at the heroes of antiquity and myth, they all have flaws. It’s something that they have to overcome; their flaws are something that they have to act in spite of. The challenge is not to defy your fate, but to endure it. That is heroic.”—-Nicholas Meyer, in explaining his view of Kirk as a mythological hero, and his justification for writing James Tiberius Kirk to be a man who is capable of cheating on a command test.
I think that Jim Kirk has already fallen from that “pedestal”. He is not perfect. If he was, he’d be less interesting (and perhaps even ‘less’ heroic. He should be even less perfect when we see him in what Orci describes as the “larval stage”, in my opinion.
Is he not a more hopeful and optimistic character if he “learns” to become the man we know him to be in TOS and beyond? I think so.
One other aspect to the young Jim Kirk in the new movie being a jerk….keep in mind that in this timeline the young Kirk is still an intelligent and talented hero-type individual, but his circumstances growing up so far prevent him from pursuing his first best destiny. He could simply be venting some of the angst and frustration that he feels, which simply makes him a more human hero, not a perfect one!