Shatner Cameo Scene Revealed + Monday Box Office + TOS Stars Talk ST09 + More Tidbits May 12, 2009
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Great Links, Star Trek (2009 film) , trackback
We have been talking about it for year’s and now Bob and Alex have finally explained how they would have fit William Shatner into Star Trek. We also have the latest on Trek’s good box office performance, TOS stars talking about ST09 stars, and more tidbits, including a new augmented reality site and a Star Trek parody comic strip .
Bob and Alex Describe Shatner scene [spoilers]
We all know the saga of the Shatner and the new Star Trek movie. After all the hemming and hawing, screenwriters Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman wrote a cameo scene, but in the end JJ Abrams chose to not to offer it to Mr. Shatner. But now Bob and Alex have described the scene to MTV.
Original Trek Stars weigh in
Speaking of the old guard, People magazine has a great ‘where are they now’ piece all about the original cast of Star Trek. Each living cast member is profiled and all provide a quote about what they think of the actor who is playing their character. Here is what Shatner had to say about Pine:
My impression of Chris Pine is that it’s perfect casting. He’s young and he’s handsome and he will be rich.
Star Trek’s Money Monday
One of the big tests for the new Star Trek film is if it will have ‘legs’, meaning if it can sustain itself through the summer and today we got the first indication that it can. After a stronger than expected weekend, yesterday Star Trek brought in $7.5M domestically, which is pretty good for a Monday. Comparing this to other first Mondays: Wolverine had $5.5M and Trek’s ‘benchmark’ film, Batman Begins had $6.6M. So far Trek has brought in $86.7M domestically.
Yesterday Paramount issue a statement regarding the strong word of mouth and performance of the film over the weekend. Paramount Rob Moore stated:
The spike over our initial estimates on Mother’s Day demonstrates that the combination of strong reviews and solid word-of-mouth contributed to better than anticipated attendance by families yesterday, confirming our belief that ‘Star Trek’ has a broad, multi-generational appeal.
Verizon’s Augmented Reality Site
Last week we pointed to an ‘augmented reality’ site from Paramount called experience-the-enterprise.com. Now Verizon is getting into the virtual 3d webcam fun with http://www.joinstarfleetacademy.com/discover. Here is a video showing off what you can do at the new site.
Star Trek: The Parody Comic Strip
MotionPictureComics is a movie-parody web-com and this week they began a new strip all about JJ Abrams new Star Trek movie. So far they have two strips up, but they tell TrekMovie they will have ‘a few weeks of fun’ with the film.
Click to see full sized strips
Star Trek V Romulan Blogs Trek
Do you remember Cynthia Gouw? She played the Romulan Ambassador Caithlin Dar in Star Trek V. The actress and former model is now the host of Philly.com’s SnapGlow.TV, a show ‘celebrating the glamour of real Philadelphia women’. And she has written a blog titled "I too am a Romulan Relic" about the new Star Trek movie and her time shooting William Shatner’s Final Frontier opus.
Gouw -then and now
Bits
More bite sized chunks of Star Trek
- ReelzChannel Movie Mob assesses Star Trek
Thanks to Steve & Joshua
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Comments»
Can’t view the Orci clip in Canada! What the hell was the cameo scene with Shatner?!
I love this movie.
Nobody seems to acknowledge the possibility that Nero’s changing the timeline may have changed it so Kirk never died.
The Shatner flashback would not have worked because he looks older and heavier then when he died on the Enterpise B.
Gouw still looks good to me.,even if she is a Romey..
Very cool scene written for the Shat. It would have made the movie even that much better. Naturally, the lack of the scene doesn’t hurt the movie at all, but yeah, judging by the “oohs” and “awes” when Spock made his big reveal, a clip with Shatner would have been met with equal enthusiasm.
One miscalculation JJ, but after witnessing the rest of your movie, I’m willing to look the other way. :)
Nice to see TREK has gotten it’s ”legs”
Awesome stuff. Thanks Anthony for all your work. Seems odd now that the film’s out. The best part of it, though, is that the big news doesn’t end here. This is just the beginning.
That movie was amazing! Oh – we found the tribble! Pretty cool, JJ Abrams.
I don’t like the Shatner cameo, it does seem too contrived. The way it turned out was better.
It was suppose to be a hologram disk Kirk had given Spock some time ago for his birthday and he was talking about how good of friends they were.
Anthony, thanks for the great box office updates. I usually go to BoxOfficeMojo for weekday “sports scores,” but looks like I won’t have to this time. :-) We’re planning an IMAX show on Saturday, can’t wait!
I’m not going to lie, while I LOVED the movie the way it is, that scene they described with Shatner would have been really really really awesome.
Well I think it would have been too contrived, because that would assume that Spock left for Romulus before the events in Star Trek Generations, which would be like 60 uyears before the next generation timeline. To keep him hidden on Romulus for that long, would have been implausable, as when we see him in TNG, he only has a small band of “followers” and the Romulan government knows he is there.
I think the movie works without Kirk, I wish i could say differently, but I can’t. These new actors will carry on this incredible legacy thats been established, and hopefully the next movie will be even better, and maybe a really good TV series can come from it in a few years. I loved the film, but there were mistakes made in areas. I do feel that these will be corected in the next film (the errors to me are in the ships design, sets- not continuity as this is an alternate timeline).
Once again there is a clip up that is unviewable outside of the States. I would have liked if there was a written out interview included along side the clip so people in Canada and other countries outside the U.S. can at least read what things are about.
I can’t even access the link.. so.. anyone want to fill me in on what the cameo is?
The idea for the cameo is better than I imagined it could be, but even though i love Shatner and his latter work (Boston Legal in particular), his persona has become a bit of a joke, and his presence would have hurt general audiences’ perception of the movie
I hate to say it, but I think the Shatner voiceover would have TOTALLY worked. I was leery of a Nimoy cameo at the time, let alone a Shatner one. But based on the way Bob and Alex described the scene, I think it would have been good on a few different levels.
Still a killer movie. Saw it again today before I had to go into work. But I do think the Shatner scene would have been a great way to tie the movie together. Plus, it may have eased out the pain of the that horrible goddamn scene from “Generations”. As a life long Kirk guy, I am _STILL_ pissed about the absoutely TERRIBLE and LAME way that Kirk’s death was written. At least this would have allowed us as an audience to both close the book on Shatner and maybe even open a new chapter on Pine.
Of course, just my opinion and I could be wrong….
While it sounds like a cool scene, I think at that point in the movie trying to describe what the disk was and how elder Spock fit into the future would have taken part of the audience away. The flow of the current movie is fantastic and I wouldn’t change a thing.
Can someone describe the Shatner scene?
If the Movie were good the Shatner Scene could have worked.
They could have worked it so that it was a CG Kirk from Generations speaking about going out on the maiden voyage of the 1701-B. Saying something about passing the torch to new caretakers while the shot is of the new cast. Would have really been a tear-jerker for trekkies, but alas
16 – Shatner’s Cameo was supposed to be at the end where young Spock is talking to elder Spock, and young Spock didn’t believe that he and Kirk would eventually become best friends. Elder Spoke was supposed to pull a holo-projector where you would see Kirk’s holo-image, while listening to a voice over by Shatner about how good it was that he and Spock were friends, etc, etc. It was essentially supposed to be his last message to Spock before Spock left for Romulus for his ‘Reunification’ efforts.
I say “Black Hole of Suck!!”
The physical appearance of Romulans in Trek has been inconsistent and amusing. Ambassador Dar in ST:V shared the look of the original series (same as Vulcans). However, her contemporary counterparts (1989) on TNG had the “updated” ridged forehead Romulans. Now with Trek XI, they have gone back to the TOS version.
You know, i love this movie BUT, the ending bugs me. Kirk is promoted to captain like two weeks out of the academy? Completely unrealistic. What really bugs me about the otherwise great film is that they could have just as easily had him say good bye to the crew before going off to another ship during the interim between ST11 and 12, then start the sequel with him being given the Enterprise during some crisis (much like ST the motion picture). It would have had the same effect and been more plausible. But that’s just me and most likely, only me.
i asked this question before but got no response. if anyone knows please let me
in generations when kirk and picard go back, y aren’t there 2 picards. Besides the dreaded killing of kirk falling off a bridge, that has always bothered me and I don’t understand if picard was there and then came back, where did the other one go lol
There are always possibilities…I just don’t know how. (honestly, with the way the movie ended I don’t really see how Shatner’s Kirk would fit into a sequel)
Not to jump down their throats (because it could well have been a slip of the tongue) but the two supposed “Trek” guys on Abrams’ supreme court don’t even know the TNG episode Spock was in? It’s “Unification”, not “Reunification”… just nitpicking… lol
I wonder where Gary Mitchell is in this timeline?
That Shatner scene isn’t that bad. I would have liked to see it.
Oh my, The Shats really gone for good. In 40 years, Pine’s Kirk may have a better end.
All they had to do was when Spock meets young Kirk (shortly after he arrived in the past) he screams out in pain and crumbles to the ground. Young Kirk asks him what is wrong. Prime Spock, in a rare look of surprise, reveals that all of a sudden, he has TWO sets of memories, those of the original timeline, and new ones projected from what will happen in the new one. Later, after the Spocks meet, an older Kirk, played by Shatner, appears, saying he is here to help his old friend. Spock, stunned slightly similar to Amok Time, states “Of course. The events of Verdian III and the maiden voyage of the Ent-B happened differently now. Kirk is a little perplexed, but brushes it off. Due to the new timeline, he knew about Prime Spock being there and came to either offer him a lift back to the new 24th centruy, or to help out in the new 23rd with the Vulcans. Kirk can even paraphrase “the good of the many” line as they decide their own destiny.
That’s good news as Trek has over $380+ million to recoup before the first profit is made (and of course the merchandising will help reduce this number as well). This film must make at least $600 million (theatre owners get half) to realize a decent profit and justify making an equally expensive sequel.
http://theenvelope.latimes.com/la-fi-ct-boxoffice11-2009may11,3,3372044.story
Oooo… the Shat’s scene would have been a considerable improvement over the current ending, I think. Spock’s weird little transition there, the oddly formalistic promotion…
Yeah, I think boborci’s right. But, then, boborci has been right about virtually everything ever so far. Maybe boborci should direct the next Trek film? :)
Two words: Lap band.
That would have been AWESOME.
Please include it on a director’s cut or something on DVD!
@ #20 Jordan
It was that scene at the end when Quinto Spock speaks with Nimoy Spock next to the shuttle. And in the OG script, Quinto couldn’t believe that he and Pine Kirk would become the best of friends. Nimoy gives Quinto a hologram disc:
A final happy birthday message to Nimoy Spock from Shatner Kirk, since Nimoy Spock would (as a half-Vulcan) now outlive him.
And the rest of Shatner Kirk’s message would be in voice-over as we watch the scene of Pine Kirk being promoted captain of the Enterprise.
Oh, I wish they would have done the Shatner hologram/voiceover cameo! I’m nearly crying already. It would have been beautiful. Maybe they can have an alternate ending on the dvd? Nudge, nudge, producers.
never wanted shatner anywhere near this film, and i believe it has done far better without him, but SPOCKBOY’s suggestion of a shatner voiceover of the closing coda has me thinking that it would’ve resolved many cultural discomforts and would have been an appropriate closing of the loop between old and new. not as a geeky wank mind you, but rather as an aesthetic stroke (pardon the weak analogy).
this of course is easily done for using finalcut/protools, and i’ll indeed try that when the DVD is available for fanhacking. anyone care to see it when i do?
#34
I know you’re really stuck on this idea, but the movie does not have to make $600 mil in initial release to justify a sequel. With the incredibly positive word of mouth and near universal acclaim from critics, there’s no way they won’t greenlight the sequel.
For those dying to know more about the new USS Enterprise, a new technical manual will be offered.
I read about it in the following news release:
http://www.vfxworld.com/?sa=adv&code=3631a5a1&atype=news&id=27664
As far as the Shatner scene, sounds like they made the right choice to clip it. It sounds convoluted and possibly confusing for those who aren’t familiar with all the ins and outs of Trekdom.
Jeez, no wonder Shatner didn’t want to do it! I can totally understand his reasoning now.
But thats not to say I don’t love the film as it is. Cos I do!
i dont know if many fans realize this, but the orignal time line is still in tact and can be revisited at any time. Just like they can go between the alternate reality and the our reality in ds9. so no this movie did not ruin trek cannon and just opens new doors to new stories. Prime spock woudln’t have two sets of memories hed just have the one becuase hes from the prime timeline. i keep reading the yahoo reviews were some trek fans are giving the movie f’s because they seem to think that the orignal time line has been destroyed. Also to make a point about the insides of the ship. In TOS we never see a warp core like in tng. And in TOS it seemed very industrial, they just didn’t have the budget. And about the bridge… ending of STIV when we see the A’s bridge for the first time? And oh btw, there was a huge thing on here before about those what seemed like projectors on the concils on the bridge… tos had those too for one episode. I’m rather frusted with some fans on yahoo that are slamming this movie. It seems like JJ bent over backwards to fit to cannon as much as he could. And why do people keep calling Uhura a slut and Jim a frat boy? And about him getting promoted to captain, Janeway mentioned in her ready room that the federation at the time of kirk and spock was much different than it is in there time. Kirk proved him self when he took command. He deserved to be captian. And technically he was captian. Pike prmoted him to first officer which would probably have given him a higher rank. Also did anyone notice that Uhura was called Lt. Uhura? Does that mean she got her rank as well without getting it? I’m not sure if this covers everything but I think the movie is great. All my friends love it and the entire office were I work at loves and those who havnt seen it yet are very excited.
Live long and prosper.
#33: And then Kirk says “Let’s go kick some Romulan ass!” and Spock raises an eyebrow and says “Fascinating.” And then they both ride off into the sunset. Then a brief comedy moment when a Tribble races along after them, trying to catch up.
Re: 34
Theater owners do not get half. They get nothing for the first month and then only the biggest chains get 10%.
Theaters make the lion’s share of their money from concessions.
I used to run 3 Loews theaters in San Diego.
Oh Man …
Bob Orci – You are totally right.
That scene would have definitely worked.
It would have been a very nice bookend.
… And a more fitting final screen presence for Kirk Prime.
(Bummer.)
Still a great movie, though.
Bob (and JJ), is there any way that scene can still be filmed?
“There’s always possibilities.”
That would be an *awesome* alternate ending to the DVD release.
I saw the video of JJ and Mr. Shatner hug at the charity event.
Seems like some good will there.
Why the hell not?
JJ, let’s do this!
Give the fans this ultimate easter egg on the DVD.
35, it’s interesting that you’ve mentioned Spock’s transition in the new movie. I’ve read hundreds of posts about the new movie, and yours is the first I’ve seen that talks about it. I assuming you’re talking about Spock’s speaking a line that then transitions into the same line’s being said in a cut to the Enterprise with Kirk at the helm.
I do like that transition, but I wonder if it is meant to be taken literally rather than as an artistic license. That is…
Given the uncanniness of Spock’s statement, does Spock have a special psychic promonition about Kirk somehow, perhaps as a result of his having traveled to the past from the future?
#3: We had that same thought, too – as far as I’m concerned, our captain’s fate is wide open again. Thank God!
I’m not so sure the Shatner scene would have worked . . . I think it would have been a distraction and taken away from the wonderful scene between the two Spocks. Honestly, I hate Kirk’s awful death as much as #18, but I walked out of that theater not even thinking about Shat.
@27: He tripped and fell into a plot hole at about the same moment.
Read the Shatner books! They’re great. This is what happened to Kirk.
Kirk might not have been alive at Spock Prime’s time – or at least veerryyy old, if you accept his books.
I can recommend his (and the Reeves-Stevens’) books highly.
It seems to me that the Enterprise never really was a character in this movie. It was just a vehicle that the crew was on. What do others think?
I think the Shatner scene would have described would have worked every bit as well as anything else in the film (I mean, geez, it’s not like 90% of the film as-is doesn’t scream convoluted contrivance anyway, and the way they described it they didn’t even try to retcon his death, just had him in a memento Spock carried on him).
I think it would have worked just fine.
I have really mixed feelings about the Shatner-Kirk “cameo.” On one level it could have been a really cool surprise and would have tied everything together nicely, but on another level Shatner-Kirk’s appearance might have diluted the emotional impact of having had Nimoy-Spock in the movie. Nimoy-Spock was essential to the plot, but Shatner-Kirk really was not – and could not have been, since he had died in the original timeline. It will be interesting to see if the writers try to “rectify” this omission and find a (more plot-related) way to bring Shatner-Kirk into ST11. In this timeline he hasn’t died… yet.
I also agree with #14 above, Shatner-Kirk could not have recorded a final birthday greeting for Nimoy-Spock before Nimoy-Spock went to Romulus around the time of “Unification.” Shatner-Kirk was in the Nexus at the time (sort of), having a good time chopping wood and cooking eggs! I doubt that Shatner-Kirk would have known he was going to wind up in the Nexus and subsequently in the 24th century prior to boarding the Enterprise-B and decided to record a farewell message at that time….
I’m glad they skipped this idea.
#51
Those books gave me eyerollitis and I had to stop reading them! ;)
#52, I had kind of the same thoughts a little. I liked the ship a lot, but i think there was to much to cover in 2 hours to really go into depth of what we all would have wanted. Good thing they will keep making more due to its financial success!!
BobOrci – If you’re reading, I have to agree that the ending you described would have worked. In fact, it kind of made me choke up just to hear you describe it.
As for the sequel, if the studio is pushing you for a Kirk/Spock/Uhura love triangle, just make sure that you put a unique twist on it: Kirk and Uhura vying for Spock’s affections. Now, THAT would truly break an old and tired mold. :D
Interesting scene. I understand why they ultimately decided against it, but I think it would have worked.
Hmm. The Shatner-version might’ve been cool, though from a story-perspective, I think the scene they went with gives the new Kirk of this particular film his due.
Bringing in Shatner to sort of “steal the show” might have reduced that scene to the level of Enterprise’s series finale, and not done this new Kirk justice. Just a thought. =)
The movie was incredible, and yeah, the Shatner scene would have worked. Anyone complaining about how “old and fat” he’s gotten…
It’s called special effects editing.
Should have done the scene
If Orci and Kurtzman could watch themselves continually dragging out this same old lame-arse excuse ”Kirk died in ‘Generations”’, they’d realize just how stupid they sound. They have, by virtue of creating the ”Star Trek multiverse” by throwing canon out the window, rendered that excuse silly-stupid and any writer worth his talent in gold would stop. If memory serves, Kirk, Spock, McCoy, even Chekov died and came back in the original series. While it doesn’t need reminding that Spock died and came back to life in STIITWoK, by itself rendering this kindergarten excuse just plain dumb, Kirk actually died twice in ”Generations.”
Come on Kurtzman and Orci. You’re starting to sound like Stepford people. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid. You use the word ”contrived” almost as often as you use the ”Kirk died” excuse. Just be honest and forthright. Nobody believes you anymore. And while this movie was a fun thrill ride, it rode heavily on contrived and coincidence. A little more would have been fine. You all are now victim of your own creation. You ”built your house and now you have to live in it.” In this ”new canon” the only thing that hasn’t changed in principle are the characters. Everything else has and will continue to.
Finally, actually that voice-over Shatner/hologram scene would have really been nice.
I keep hearing fans complaining about various points in the movie, like “kirk gets to be captain after 2 weeks at the academy” and “alexander courage’s star trek theme isn’t in the movie”
Pike says “you can be a captain in four years”
Later Kirk says “I’ll do it in three”
Cut to space, title card says “three years later”
So at best, Kirk got to be captain a year earlier than is standard. Seems completely reasonable.
Alexander Courage’s opening trek theme is heard under Nimoy’s “space the final frontier” narration at the end of the movie.
@ 26
I envisioned that at the end of ST11 that Kirk is not yet captain but has been given a taste of it and loves it. Instead of being captain, he has to go back to the academy to teach and work. In ST12 Pike is worn out much like he is in the Cage but is not ready or willing to turn over the ship to Kirk but instead wants Spock to be captain. Spock declines and puts all of his effort and influence into having Kirk named as captain – unknown to Kirk, who thinks Spock still hates him. Kirk and Pike are both promoted by Starfleet in a surprise and in a complex mission (with both on board and arguing about decisions) Pike realizes that Kirk is a fantastic commanding officer. At the end of ST12 Pike would die in some heroic way and would be given a fantastic scene telling Kirk and Spock what they must do.
62. Read what you just wrote back to yourself, feel the shame and grow up.
63, I believe that Pike’s line was that Kirk can be captain in eight, not four years. Pike said that Kirk can graduate in four years. That’s my recollection.
34:
According to your numbers, even Iron Man was a major fail, and it’s opening weekend was far better than Trek’s. Iron Man had no traction as a franchise before launch.
The marketing spend can be spread over several films, but the weak foreign Box Office is troubling for sure. The film has 3 days left to impress before ‘DV Code 2′ is out.
While I think ‘DVC2′ will pass through the summer nearly unnoticed, “T4″ will certainly tighten the screws for Trek.
So, just a thought. If Nero alters the timeline in 2233 to the point of creating a parallel universe, why does Spock appear in 2258 in the new universe and not in the 2258 of the prime universe?
Discuss. Show your work ;)
“My impression of Chris Pine is that it’s perfect casting. He’s young and he’s handsome and he will be rich.”
Notice how the other cast members had really nice and inspirational things to say about the Newbies, but Shatner? *LOL*
The Cameo feels a bit contrived, but if they can find a way to execute it really well, it has the potential to add a more emotional tone to the Promotion Scene. It’s also a nice way to emphasize Spock Prime’s “I am, and will always be your friend” declaration.
I have a simple solution to the Shatner cameo dilemma. All they had to do was send out a press release canonizing Billy’s novel, “The Return.” They would have gotten their scene, & Billy would have been overjoyed.
I actually thought the same thing about having Shatner at then end when Spock was looking over Kirk getting his promotion to captain. Although I wasn’t thinking a holographic message, more like Spock hallucinating and just having Bill right there next to him smiling wearing the uniform from II-VI.
It was a perfect place for a cameo! Aww I wish that would’ve happened. I just thought that would’ve made the entire movie perfect. I would have loved it even more.
34:
The way movies work: The opening week (which we are still in) the theater chains get 10% and Paramount 90% of the box office. The second week, the theaters get 20% and Paramount 80%, and so on and so forth. The longer the movie plays, the more profit the theaters will make. But to make a blanket statement that if Star Trek makes $600 million that Paramount would only get $300 million is ignorant. In just four days, the $80 million take means that Paramount will collect $72 million of it (90%) and we still have several days in that first week.
63 – No one seems to realize that a good chunk of Starfleet’s Fleet was destroyed by Nero. I would think this would obviously lead to the promotions of current advanced cadets to active status aboard new ships. As this is my justification, it wouldnt seem unusual for Kirk to be advanced to Captain so quickly, especially since he proved himself as Captain, and also since he saved Earth as well!
I loved everything about this movie. It fits into the canon of Trek, and I applaud Bob and Alex for their exceptional writing, and of course JJ for bringing this vision to all of us fans! You have been instrumental in making me, and many fans, feel part of this movie making experience, and I look forward to the sequel.
Oh, and by the way, if you need ANY help at all making the next one, E-MAIL ME!!!
The Shatner scene seems contrived. Spock Prime could have just melded with Spock. In fact, I hope he does in a sequel. How fascinating would it be for Spock Prime to put his katra in Spock? Then again, that probably wouldn’t be ethical for Spock and would create a lot of story baggage.
@62
Bitter much?
Star Trek: The Previous Generation was a great movie.
Resurrecting Kirk for no reason other than to bring him back and pass the baton would have been silly. In fact, it would have just been dumb. It would require an entire movie to explain a story like resurrecting Kirk. In fact, didn’t the Shatnerverse Novels devote an entire book to this?
I’m sorry, but Generations had a lame end to the Kirk character — Shatner didn’t have to agree to film that. The character’s death was lame and wasteful. Blame the writers and producer of Star Trek: Generations. That was 15 years ago. Get over it.
I actually thought it would have been cool for a longer mind meld with Spock Prime and Kirk. Spock Prime could have shown Kirk a preview of many of Kirk Primes’ accomplishments in order to give him confidence. It would also have been a great way to explain his quick rise to promotion as he would have gained a lot of knowledge. I was expecting it to happen, but it wasn’t written into the movie.
“BobOrci – If you’re reading, I have to agree that the ending you described would have worked. In fact, it kind of made me choke up just to hear you describe it. ”
I totally agree. It would have been a great scene and hand off to the new cast and a nice valentine to us old fans. And it would have underscored what Spock/Nimoy was telling his younger self about staying in Starfleet rather than resigning.
Umm… why couldn’t have Spock gone to Romulus more than once? I mean, the Federation does have connections to the Romulan Star Empire, and Spock headed the Fed/Klingon talks of VI, so why not with Romulus too? He’s human and Vulcan, and the Romulans have a grudging respect for him, much as the Klingons did with Kirk. Kind of makes him a perfect candidate to lead peace talks with Romulus. Maybe he did and the talks failed, so he returned to the Federation after the Enterprise-B incident? That leaves Spock free to sneak back to Romulus 100 years later.
Just my thoughts on the “the Shatner cameo wouldn’t have worked cause he was already dead when Spock went to Romulus” argument.
****
And I think the Shatner scene would have been beautiful.
I’d still like to see him show up–maybe Spock Prime gets sent back to his own time, but the timeline was changed and Kirk didn’t die in the fight with Soran? I dunno, I’ve just always had this image in my head of Spock opening his front door and Shatner/Kirk standing there. And then an almost Amok Time “Jim!” moment… but more sad. THAT would make me happy. :)
And, finally, I thought Spock watching Kirk become captain (with an unscarred Pike there, too!), looking sad and then he says, “Thrusters on full…” … that was one of the saddest things I’ve ever seen.
“I have been, and always shall be, your friend.”
I have to admit that I didn’t miss Shatner in the movie. I don’t know if his appearance would’ve added anything or diminished the movie, but I personally don’t think his absence subtracted from the movie in any way. In fact, the first thing that came to mind when the movie ended was “Wow, this movie didn’t really need Shatner.” That is my opinion, I’m not speaking for anyone else, so bear that in mind before you tear that apart.
I would also like to confess at this moment, since it’s sort of on-topic, that I started to read “The Return”, but quit out of boredom. I didn’t finish Collision Course for the same reason. The only Trek novels I really enjoyed were the Khan series by Greg Cox.
Hologram flashback? Hmmm… sounds kinda cool, but what about a quick mind meld with younger Spock? Might be a big “cheat”, but hey, with Vulcan now gone I think Spock prime would be more than a little willing to put the odds in young Spock’s favor for the future don’t ya think? Still LOVED the movie without Shat, but that scene does sound pretty cool.
@78 I’ve already had the “Bring back Shat” debate at the startrekmovie.com forum.
It is so complicated that it requires its own movie to explain. You’d have to invoke additional time travel or technobabble or something like Q (whose character was repeatedly water-down to nothing more than comic relief).
To get back to nitpicking mode, I think this movie still could use its own prequel to better bridge the gap (like actually a movie based off Countdown). But you would have to consider whether or not that would be largely watchable by the mainstream and financially viable to produce.
So it looks like the franchise was going to be rebooted anyway. We have it pretty good. The person that wanted to make Sulu a woman could have made this movie with a different script. We could have had it a lot worse. Die hard fans of the original Galactica, which I am not, had it far worse.
Move on, people.
By the way they described the scene I think it would have worked great and it seems clear to me now that someone, or a few someones, had a beef with the Shatner. They should have at least filmed it so they could have seen if it looked good or not.
Lastly, how would Spock Prime have anything of value on him after being captured by Nero? Would he really carry such a holodisk on him for such a long period of time and survive the events leading up to this movie to give the disk to the new Spock?
44. Jotin – May 12, 2009
i dont know if many fans realize this, but the orignal time line is still in tact and can be revisited at any time. Just like they can go between the alternate reality and the our reality in ds9. so no this movie did not ruin trek cannon and just opens new doors to new stories. Prime spock woudln’t have two sets of memories hed just have the one becuase hes from the prime timeline. i keep reading the yahoo reviews were some trek fans are giving the movie f’s because they seem to think that the orignal time line has been destroyed. Also to make a point about the insides of the ship. In TOS we never see a warp core like in tng. And in TOS it seemed very industrial, they just didn’t have the budget. And about the bridge… ending of STIV when we see the A’s bridge for the first time? And oh btw, there was a huge thing on here before about those what seemed like projectors on the concils on the bridge… tos had those too for one episode. I’m rather frusted with some fans on yahoo that are slamming this movie. It seems like JJ bent over backwards to fit to cannon as much as he could. And why do people keep calling Uhura a slut and Jim a frat boy? And about him getting promoted to captain, Janeway mentioned in her ready room that the federation at the time of kirk and spock was much different than it is in there time. Kirk proved him self when he took command. He deserved to be captian. And technically he was captian. Pike prmoted him to first officer which would probably have given him a higher rank. Also did anyone notice that Uhura was called Lt. Uhura? Does that mean she got her rank as well without getting it? I’m not sure if this covers everything but I think the movie is great. All my friends love it and the entire office were I work at loves and those who havnt seen it yet are very excited.
Live long and prosper
I was all for having Shatner in the movie, but this would have been too much like the end of Starksy and Hutch for me – also, if you’re going to get him in, make it have some meaning, like resurrect him or go find his Katra which he’d left in whatshername in turnabout Intruder.
He would have to be the McGuffin for that to matter though.
But since that’s already been done, I think it would be better all round if we just moved on with this rather splendid new crew.
I wasn’t expecting to say that, but the film was much better than I thought it would, and I think they earned the right to go and make Star Trek 2.1 (or is it 11.2?) without Shatner or even Nimoy in it. (Gasp, heresey etc…)
We all know that you hate the movie already! Why are you still here, trolling?
_________________________
24. The Last Maquis – May 12, 2009
I say “Black Hole of Suck!!”
Changing the timeline?
Think of it this way… maybe as the new timeline unfolds with Kirk, Spock et al going forth, the events of STV: TFF (the ultimate violator of canon) …. or TNG’ “The Outrageous Okuda” for that matter, will never EVER happen.
That alone is good reason to applaud the alternate reality!!!
(smile)
Oops, sorry about the earlier mispost!
Shatner himself said that he doesn’t do cameos.
#44 Thanks for your insight! Everytime I read a review where some angry Trekkie trashes that film, I can’t help but feel sorry for them because they’re so emotional that they couldn’t grasp one of the basic concepts that was presented. It goes to show that some people view Star Trek as entrainment, while others view it as religion.
#26: I agree with you, Eric.
My first question for Bob Orci is, “Was Sybok a casualty on Vulcan? PLEASE SAY YES!”
Bob, is there ANY way this could be done as a alternate ending? I mean, all it would require is getting Shatner to agree to do the voice over and some editing. It sure would be a doozy of an extra for the DVD.
JMN
#34 – You just gloss over the merchandising, and completely ignore the DVD sales and aftermarket. This has revitalized the Trek market for years.
Paramount would’ve greenlit a sequel if Trek would’ve only hit 150 mil. Now that it’s going to hit 200+, not to mention the incredible reviews and word of mouth…Yeah, Trek is going to be juuuust fine.
And please, no Shatner in this franchise ever again. Pine is a better Kirk than Shatner was anyway. YEAH I SAID IT.
The loss of Vulcan might be worth it if this means Sybok is dead.
My personal opinion: the original actors are too old. Even Nimoy in my eyes was another person, not the Spock I knew. At the time of the next movie Shatner will be 80. The more time passes, the more difficult is to bring him back on screen in a believable way. Only a small, digitally edited cameo would do. I wouldn’t like that, and neither would Shatner.
“all it would require is getting Shatner to agree to do the voice over”…
Just stop and think about that for a second… :-)
Unless you have some pictures of him in a compromising position with a Targ, I somehow suspect he’d decline. Even if you DID, he’d probably still want the GDP of Latvia….
#29: “Not to jump down their throats (because it could well have been a slip of the tongue) but the two supposed “Trek” guys on Abrams’ supreme court don’t even know the TNG episode Spock was in? It’s “Unification”, not “Reunification”…
just nitpicking…”
I’ll say! (grin) I mean, I cannot remember the names of every single TNG episode.
Although when I was younger, I used to be able to name every single episode of TOS, who wrote it and who directed it.
I really needed to get a life back then (LOL).
I just hope that Sybok was crushed between several tons of rocks and sucked into a blackhole so we don’t have to ever hear or see him in this alternate universe.
#43: “Jeez, no wonder Shatner didn’t want to do it! I can totally understand his reasoning now.”
I don’t think it was a matter of Shatner not wanting to do it. Shatner was already on record saying he was not interested in doing a cameo. As a result, I think the scenario was nixed without even approaching the elder “Kirk.”
Which makes the whole scenario, whether it was good idea or not, a mute point.
About the augmented reality site:
The first one I get to work (the experience one), but the new one doesn’t work. It doesn’t recognise my cam. And the plugin seems to be different. When I install the new one the old one doesn’t work
Any help? :)
Honestly, it’s not like Shatner can’t be reached. And the whole cameo thing is poppycock. Shatner has a cameo in Fan Boys and I guarantee you he didn’t get the GDP of Latvia for that. I think Shatner would like that voice over and would realize how classy it is and how important it makes his contribution. Shatner isn’t a stone.
JMN
#62: “Come on Kurtzman and Orci. You’re starting to sound like Stepford people. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid. You use the word ”contrived” almost as often as you use the ”Kirk died” excuse. Just be honest and forthright. Nobody believes you anymore.”
Chill. Speak for yourself about what and who we believe. They (Orci an Kurtzman) were honest, you just don’t want to accept it.
C’mon, just how much time would you have been willing to divert the story at hand to invent a reason to bring Kirk back to life? Elder Kirk, as much as I love Mr. Shatner, plays no part in this story, nor should he have (just to satisfy our want for it).
IF, if Mr. Shatner was to have played a role in the movie I would have preferred it be with him interacting with Nimoy’s Spock; that was, after all, the charm of the TOS… the interaction, the friendship and the cameraderie of the triad of Kirk-Spock-McCoy. Otherwise, what was the point of including him?
I think the producers made the right choice by not including the scene. It would have been an unnecessary distraction.
Although the scene that never was surely would have been an emotional one, I don’t think it would have been good enough for Shatner/Kirk, nor for the BBKers. If Shatner actually rejected it, he was well advised to do so, imo. The way it’s composed it feels like a mere crumb tossed in the diehards’ direction – and I like my meals to be wholesome. :)
‘It was the best of times,
it was the worst of times…’
would have worked for me.
Dead on, Iowagirl! +1
Think about this for a second: JJ and Co decided the scene wasn’t working, never approached Shatner and the mass media STILL wrote about the fact that Shatner wasn’t in the movie, how he hated that fact, yadda, yadda, yadda…
Can you imagine the bad press if it had gotten out they had asked Shatner and he had turned them down? That would have been a PR nightmare.
I can totally understand why they nixed an idea that they were not 110% behind.
@83
THANK you! That was a point that I was going to make! Why would Nero, who was supposedly determined to make Spock Prime suffer the pain of loss of his people, keep such a souvenir?
Unless the first couple of minutes of the holo were ads for Priceline and Promise margarine – and Nero wouldn’t have known that there was something of emotional value there?
Can someone give a clear synopsis for those of us who are USA-ically challenged, and can’t view the MTV vid outside the US?
My 106
Hmmmmm. An intro consisting of the “The Barbary Coast” title sequence might have served, too.
“Okay, Spock! Enough! Keep it!”
107…
Star Trek
Starfleet hangar
Spock meets Spock Prime.
Is still not convinced that he meet his future self.
Spock Prime hands him a holodisk.
Old message from Kirk Prime on it, happy birthday message as a farewell
because Spock Prime leaves for his long term mission to Romulus,
which will last longer than Kirk Primes life span.
Starts as a holoshatner, fades into voiceover.
#68
The wormhole connects to the prime universe to the new universe, but the rate at which time passes is different in each space-time frame, so the few moments that pass in the prime universe between the Narada and the Jellyfish falling in amount to 25 years in the new universe. Hence, Narada thrown back 154 years, Spock thrown back 129 years.
This is one of the few bits of the movie I can make sense of. But it’s such an enjoyable blast I don’t care.
I would like the next one to be a bit deeper and more thoughtful (whilst being cinematic and not TV), and particularly to focus on Spock. I have always identified with Spock’s personality and inner conflict, and what we saw in this movie was beautful. MORE please.
Can someone please explain how the prime timeline is still intact as others have mentioned above, I must be in thick mode because I can’t understand how it is still intact.
Thanks
In the next movie, the Enterprise should travel to the revised 25th century.
@111…
David, the Primeverse is untouched because Spock and Nero left it and their arrival and actions in the past, starting 2233 with the Klevin attack, created a new universe that branched off and can not influence the Primeverse. Whatever happened there, happened.
The Orciverse is closed in itself and has it’s own timeline.
By the way, fellow fans, your and my geeky (but cool) questions about timelines and coincidences are answered by Messrs. Orci and Kurtzman at the following link:
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1611247/20090512/story.jhtml
@111
The reason for this is explained in the TNG episodes “Parallels”. You have countless choices, what ever choice you make you live with. But the choices that you don’t make still happen in alternet realities. When you travel back in time you create an alternate reality because once there theres a difference from the timeline you came from. Its like a branching tree. This theory solves the,” if you go back in time and kill yourself how can you have gone back in time to kill yourself if your dead” problem. you travel back, create an alternate timeline in the process of doing so, kill yourself and in that universe, the younger you is dead but you still exsist there because you came from another reality. It’s kind of confusing hahaha.
@114…
I like what Alex told us about falling boulders there…
I’d have finished the Spock/Spock Prime scene with Spock watching Spock Prime boarding the shuttle for the Vulcan and noticing Spock Prime being given a hand by William Shatner in a blink and you’ll almost miss it moment.
No need for explanations, just a little easter egg to make the audience go ‘How the hell did he get there?’
Doubtless there’ll be a new Shatnerverse novel telling how Shatner’s Kirk and Kelley’s McCoy follow Spock Prime to the new universe anyway! ;)
I think it’s telling that despite prescreening concerns over building the ship on Earth in Iowa, leaving the prime timeline the major criticism of the movie is it leaves the cource of the movie wholely dependant on chance, luck (Kirk,real Spock and Scotty all on the same planet), oh and giving Scotty a pet troll.
I think it’s a fundemental part of Star Trek that the characters are where they are because of the choices they make not fate, destiny or corrections to the time stream. The idea that anybody could be Kirk or Spock position based on not their birthright or luck but their ability is key part of this movies failings I hope they don’t rely on coincidence next time to drive the story.
Well even if the prime universe exists its not like they can go back through the black hole to it.?
I can understand how they have changed things so the future is different, but its still the same universe, its one thread through time otherwise you would have to say that when they save the planet in IV, in one reality Earth dies at that point.
92:
Shatner played Kirk from 1966-1994, and Pine plays him in one movie and suddenly he’s better?
The new movie was great. It really was. But why denigrate what came before? Why say something like that when Shatner was an important part of Trek’s success? And if Trek hadnt been successful and endured, we never would have gotten this movie, or Pine’s version of Kirk.
Anyway, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I just think its kinda sad that you’d say that.
30 – That’s a very good question. Where was Kirk’s ‘best friend’ Gary Mitchell ?
I want to see a Star Trek Titan Series as a Spin off of Nemesis.
And two more TNG Movie featuring the whole cast expect maybe Riker and Trio because there series Star Trek Titan there should be two more Star Trek tng movie possible 3 and the next one should be data returns and finaly become first officer and picard at the end gets married to doctor crusher.
And in the next Star Trek TNG movie should focus on a battle which is the starting point for the prequal 2009 film which give the fans a much more believeable storyline for the 2009 film and for fans like me to see Picard in command of the 1701-Enterprise-E gets my heart pumping the his ship should have a huge upgrade in the next two films because of what happed in Nemesis Showing that the enterprise need more power so the put the new chair on the bridge and upgrade the bridge as a whole new look to the ship and increase the ships speed and size b4 should in my mind stay himself it’s not fair that data take s B4 life to save his own i surggest that the remans beemed him out of the stip before it blow up and that he’s lost his memorys and the remans make him there leader to take down federation and the Romulans but b4 gains the ability to learn and doesn’t become data.
But keeps data memory stored in his neurtal net but when they find out that data is with the remens B4 goes against Captain Picard orders and goes to save his brother from the remens and restores data’s memory so that data return to the enteprise to take the first officer post and B4 wishes to go on the titan to become secord officer
David B. Yes, in one reality, in star trek IV, the earth was destoryed. Its kind of like different dimensions. Theres different ways of getting between realities/univereses/dimensions. They’ve travled back and forth between the two of them a couple times in star trek.
@119…
No. There are infinite parallel universes out there. Even if you rip open spacetime again with a red matter based black hole and jump through it, you will never find the Primeverse again. And this is not exactly science, it was rather an accident.
124
I think I finally get it, so the Black Hole not only went through time, but space as well and ended up in a different universe. I think if they could have cleared that up in the film there wouldn’t be so many angry trekkies out there, including myself initially.
If Nimoy in the film said something like “This is not my universe”
or at the end when he is talking to his younger self
“I shall not try to return to my own universe as I have outlived my uselfulness there, but there is much work to be done here for the good of the few”
Just spell it out that the original is intact would have given some of us a sigh of relief.
Nimoy has said he wants to be in a sequel; Abrams has said that Shatner is a possibility for a sequel. I want both, naturally. I hope they work it out. I think the key to making it work in story terms is the golden opportunity offered by Nimoy-Spock still being in the alternative past.
What I’d do (if it were me) is have a small flashback with Shatner in it in the middle of the film, probably after a scene in which Pine-Kirk goes to Nimoy-Spock on the Vulcan colony to ask him for his advice.
(Quinto Spock has been kidnapped by someone or something and Pine-Kirk wants advice about the future. ”Events are not unfolding as I recall them” comments Nimoy but tells Pine a story to illustrate his point, we see Shatner in a sequence like the 24th century mind-meld sequence in the current movie).
Possibly this scene is the story of how Prime Kirk came back after ‘Generations’ (if the point being made is how Kirk and Spock can never be parted) or possibly it isn’t. The point is it introduces the noob audience to Shatner’s Kirk but also gives the rest of a glimpse of him. Most of the audience will then think that this is extent of Shatner’s involvement in the movie and won’t expect him to turn up later.
After this advice, Pine-Kirk takes Spock’s point but insists that it proves that *he* still needs *a* Spock and his has been taken. Nimoy-Spock agrees to accompany him to Enterprise and take his younger self’s role until they find Quinto-Spock.
Then, at the end of the movie, Nimoy-Spock appears to sacrifice himself to save the Alternative Reality Enterprise and crew. Enterprise leaves. Then we cut to Nimoy standing alone in some kind of void. He turns round and Shatner Kirk is there. Spock says something along the lines of ”You came back for me”, Kirk ”You did the same for me” and we get a variation of the ending of KHAN/SFS speech. Then they leave together, heading back to the Prime Universe in some way that Shatner’s Kirk has arranged. Spock ”I thought there was no way back..” Kirk ”I don’t believe in no win scenarios. C’mon, I need you.”
This would work because the structure of (the brilliant, brilliant) STAR TREK (2009) makes it legitimate to have a flashback/forward in the centre and Spock being ‘trapped’ in the alternative past gives reasons for another Prime Universe character to come and ‘rescue’ him.
I’ve never written movies, just books and radio – but I don’t think there’s a reason why this, structurally and in terms of character, wouldn’t work. Provided Mr Shatner is on board.
116, yes I found that interesting,as well.
117, not too sure what you’re referring to.
125, I agree that the writers’ intention, per Mr. Orci, is to give us two timelines: The Prime timeline, which is (confusingly, but understandably) referred to as the “alternate reality” by Uhura in the new movie, and the actual “Alternate Reality” (capitalized), a.k.a. the “Abramsverse.” The Prime timeline is the one with Shatner-as-Kirk, and where all the events depicted have occurred, did occur. It is intended that the Prime timeline be deemed to continue to exist. Therefore, even after the destruction of Vulcan in the Alternate Reality (the “Abramsverse”), Vulcan continues to exist in the Prime timeline (a.k.a. Prime Reality).
The problem is that some analysts — notably the one at the Ex Astris website — maintain that parallel universes of the kind of which the Prime Reality and Alternate Reality would be two are NOT the preferred way of looking at time travel in Trek. The Ex Astris writer notes that in most cases, restoring the timeline is of the utmost importance in Trek, and in fact this is why Star Trek: First Contact had such urgency. He does note some exceptions that do allow for this kind of parallel universe, however.
In the Real Universe (i.e., the one you and I exist in today, in 2009), real science posits the existence of parallel universes as one interpretation of quantum mechanics. David Deutsch, for example, is a prime proponent of this theory.
If what the Ex Astris commentator is true, one way to rationalize Trek’s theory as seen in First Contact is to say that there are some forms of time travel that create changes in such a large number of timelines that it becomes unacceptable. Thus, Picard needed to go back in time because offscreen dialogue told him that the particular kind of time travel the Borg engaged in resulted in an unacceptably high number of corrupted timelines, such that he had to follow them back in time lest his own timeline be fatally corrupted. This would accommodate both the idea that parallel universes can exist and the urgency of “restoring” timelines.
@125…
Yep, that’s it David.
The point is that the mainstream audience can enjoy the movie without deeper knowledge of the world on the quantum level… and Bob Orci came in here pretty early and described the whole thing. Hence me calling the new timeline “Orciverse”.
Which is short for “OrciKurtzmanverse” of course ;))
Note concerning the above comment about Uhura’s comment: Come to think of it, I may be misremembering what she was referring to in her line about “alternate reality.” She might have been referring to what we know to be the Prime timeline (a.k.a. the” Prime Reality”) as the “alternate reality,” or she might have been referring to her own. I cannot recall exactly what she was referring to. This does not affect the point made in the rest of my message, however.
@129…
Uhura and Spock…
“An alternate reality?”
“Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.”
Okay, then she was referring to the Alternate Reality, not the Prime timeline, then.
I appreciate it, Thorsten.
Shatner would never have done that scene, touching as it sounds. He’s made it clear he wasn’t interested in a cameo, which is what the scene would have been. Nice effort, though, Robert & Alex!
Bob… I do hope you guys listen to us… I would have LOVED to have seen that scene, jeez, even hearing it described made me well up… and as for “prime” Kirk being dead… well the timeline has changed!
68
How about caught in the temporal wake? Just like in First Contact. That way, the same altered universe applies to both ships.
62
I’m sure Kurtzman and Orci are crying into the beers right now… by the way, why are you so worried about contrivances when at the same time you happily accept the premise that the universe is teaming with humanoid life, people can travel around it very fast and that they can beam from place to place? Trekkies should be the last to complain about what’s contrived and what’s not…
;)
Saw it twice at a regular multiplex. Now I was able to watch it in IMAX. Wow, Star Trek was made for this humongous screen. It’s breathtaking in your face event.
That scene would have given no hope as to the fate of kirk prime at all and just left him dead. A reference to the shatner novels (which do not break canon jj) would have given hope or setting it post generations. Kirk can be resurrected without breaking canon and don’t give that would take a whole movie crap. They did it with data with one line in a comic. Kirk prime doesn’t as much even get a comic revival. Anyway off to see the movie today. Glad the cameo didn’t work out we don’t need another reminder that kirk prime died. The friendship angle was sweet but if you use shatner at least use him for hope please.
Oh and I also don’t remember anyone saying here that kirk primes appearance had to change canon. His resurrection could have fit perfectly with canon but it’s something jj likes to say in interviews to justify the decision to not give shatner a meaningful role: yep blame the fans LOL
I’ll say it again…. “there are always possibilities”… let’s have the Shat in the sequal..
For me, it wouldn’t have worked.
Old Kirk needs to be in the movie, in person.
I still picture something like old Kirk from the prime timeline being resurrected and used as a weapon against young Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise for the next movie. A battle Kirk vs. Kirk. With old Spock being the only one to bring back old Kirk to the side of the good guys by bringing back his hidden/erased memories and then they all together would go against the real threat…
Damn my geographical situation! Can’t view the Shatner clip!
Any help?
I’m actually really surprised, because I think that Shatner scene could have really worked as an emotional finale to the film. I guess the only problem would have been Shatner’s appearance today is obviously different than it was in 1994 when Kirk died in Generations…. though I guess with it being a hologram they could of done some de-aging CGI. Damn, I think that should of happened.
>>Is there any chance of the writer’s posting the exact scene text from the script here? Mainly I’d like to read Kirk’s dialogue.<<
@138 Cool idea!
I concur with Bob. It could have worked.
Ok, here’s one of the “is it just me” questions
When was Shatner Kirk to record this message? I guess it should have been close to 2293, before he was caught by the Nexus. But how could he have known about Spock’s mission to Romulus back then? Spock went there some 70 years LATER, didn’t he?
This scene makes no sense to me and I’m glad they never did it.
They should’ve let Shatner voiceover the “Space. The final frontier” at the ending instead of Nimoy. Plain and simple.
Dammit, that “scene” for Shatner would have been AWESOME!! Truly the icing on the cake!!
Although it’s probably a good thing that they didn’t do it – if they had used that ending, it most likely would have brought me to tears. Just hearing their description of it almost did it…
I agree with #143 – at the very least, it should have been Shatner doing the “Space, the final frontier…” voice-over. I could never figure out why they always had Spock do those voice-overs in the movies – he’s not the captain, dammit!! Not to mention the fact that nobody ever really does any exploring or seeking out new life and new civilizations in the movies. They just muck around with previously-established races and civilizations.
-138… That would work great, and dovetail nicely with the Shatner books..
#133
the timeline has not changed, because ST09 is not the original timeline, but presents a new and *parallel* timeline. so in the original universe, where Spock Prime came from, Kirk Prime is still dead (unless you count his remaining shadow in the Nexus as “existence”).
PS to Bob, Alex, JJ & Co.: I liked the new film very much. Not entirely thrilling/suspenseful/dramatic/exciting, but extremely pleasing & entertaining. 7.5 of 10. 4th or 5th best Trek film ever.
PPS: Good you didn’t film the Shatner scene. It would’ve been cheesy.
143
“When was Shatner Kirk to record this message? I guess it should have been close to 2293, before he was caught by the Nexus. But how could he have known about Spock’s mission to Romulus back then? Spock went there some 70 years LATER, didn’t he?”
Yeah, I’ve been puzzled by this as well. It makes absolutely no sense. Orci really fumbled his Trek cred with that one.
Whahahaha! The two cartoons are hilarious, particularly the second one.
Here’s my “I’m too old to let go of the past completely” wish:
In the sequel, Nimoy Spock realizes that he shouldn’t be trying (in vain) to rebuild the destroyed Vulcan race – he should devote his energy to the more logical course: fixing the timeline. He realizes that the Narada unnaturally altered the “real” timeline, and like all other instances where the timeline has been unnaturally altered, he must fix it (e.g. Yesterday’s Enterprise, Tomorrow is Yesterday, First Contact, the DS9 episode where they visit the “Tribbles” event, the Enterprise season with the WWII aliens, etc.). He, therefore, enlists the help of Pine Kirk and Quinto Spock, both of whom not only see the logic in setting history “right,” but who both also have compelling personal reasons to want to fix the timeline (Kirk knows that he grew up with his dad in the correct timeline, and young Spock’s mom (and homeworld) doesn’t die there).
I haven’t quite figured out how to get Shatner in on this yet. Maybe Nimoy Spock waits 25 years until deciding to fix the timeline, and then teams up with Shatner Kirk (who is now Pine plus 25 years). Yeah, I know, Shatner looks too old to be Pine in 25 years, but maybe the wonders of makeup can help suspend disbelief. Anyhow, they then travel back to the time that Nero is supposed to come through the black hole, and team up with the new cast to stop the event. The movie then switches to the “real” timeline, where we have our awesome new cast go off on another adventure.
I admit that the second part needs work. But my overriding point is that there can still be really great new stories in the old timeline. There’s no need for a new timeline to make “fresh” or “new” stories. There is virtually no detail on the crew’s really early days (either in the academy or in the first year of Kirk’s command), aside from the books, which get ignored in the movies for the most part anyhow. Personally, I’d love to see a movie version of the book that envisions Kirk’s first mission as captain (I think the book was called, Enterprise, but I don’t remember).
I like the idea of the new timeline, too. I just want the old one back eventually, because I’d LOVE to see this new cast in the old context. It would be awesome.
Judging by some previous feedback, I don’t think that many people are going to be with me on this idea. One can wish, though.
Can someone youtube the shatner cameo clip? I cant see it as i’m in the uk.
You don’t actually need to watch the clip, everything you need to know is transcribed here
http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1611116/story.jhtml
#147 – Glad I’m not the only one. Shame on you, boborci!
If they shoot the shat scene and add it as an extra (not actually in the film) the dvd sales would go through the roof.
In the end it would make better business sense than had Shatner been in the movie in the first place.
On second thoughts don’t have it as an extra on the first dvd.
Release a second dvd six months after the first with the alternate ending in the film and sell the dvd all over again. Market it as the Shatner version.
SPOILERS for Wolverine/STXI/T4 coming up!!
The Shatner scene couldve worked – a throw back to his message in Tholian Web – totally in keeping with the Kirk character (Lt Yar did the same)…avoids canon violations of bringing him back to life…maybe wouldve even been Shatner doing the final ‘Space The Final frontier…’ speech at the end..(after all it was The Shat who did it in TOS…still, Nimoy did it at the end of TWOK so it was a nice homage to that)
I guess theyd have used CGI to make Shatner look younger (how he looked in 1994) – like Stewart in X3/X4 (although better than those efforts!), Pitt in Ben Button and Arnie in T4
however on the flip side maybe itd have taken the sheen off Nimoys involvment and his final scene (esp if shatner had done the end Voice over speech)
i actually didnt realise Shatner wasnt in it until a couple of hours after seeing it – i guess that pretty much answers the question as to how can there be an TOS film without Shatner! !….i remember a while back when all the shatner saga was going on thinking that if he wasnt in it id expect something like previous movie footage of shatner shown at some point – …or even a photo like Connery in Crystal Skull
wonder if Patrick Stewart cameo was ever on the cards too? (maybe in the mind meld scene?)
63: Your recollection is off. I believe Pike told Kirk that he could be an officer in 4 years and have his own ship in 8. Now matter how you slice it, Kirk going straight from Academy grad to Captain is a huge stretch, albeit an unavoidable one for the writers if the goal is to have everyone in their proper places by the time the credits roll.
I’m still weirded out by the idea that bringing a dead character back to life is seen as silly, a canon violation or some how un-TREK. There can hardly be a regular character in TREK who hasn’t died and come back at least once. It’s just one of the things that, for better or worse, happens in the show(s).
ABOUR KIRK BEING CAPTAIN SO FAST: #26 and others-
I seriously think it’s more believeable than you give credit for. First of all, Pike recruited Kirk. Pike is apparently the top captain in Starfleet, hence his assigned position to the new flagship of the fleet, the starship Enterprise.
Before that, I feel that it’s obvious that he must have had a very high profile job at the academy. Since he studied Kirk’s family (his father in particular) and admired their “style”, I’m sure he was really rooting for Kirk to succeed. I’m sure he followed Kirk throughout his academic days at Starfleet and saw a very intelligent “stack of book with legs” that carried much of the spirit of his father. My bet is that although he was upset that Kirk cheated on the Kob. Maru test, he probably had a sneaking admiration of Kirk’s “solution”.
Once Kirk ended up on the Enterprise and helped figure out the Romulan situation, I’m sure Pike realized Kirk was an asset. Once they faced the Narada and he made Spock captain, I’m guessing Pike felt that Spock leaned as far to the right as was possible. He wanted someone as first officer to counter that with the “polar opposite”. Kirk was that guy! Anyone else would have blindly followed anything Spock said to do because of the Vulcan intimidation factor. (This is not a political statement by me, by the way)
Once acting Captain Kirk & Company save Pike, Earth, and all other Federation planets that were left (remember, Nero said he wanted to destroy them all), it’s easy to see why someone in Starfleet might consider him captain material. What might seem far fetched is of the Enterprise herself.
Frankly, what makes that assignment believable to me is that 1.) Pike is promted to admiral (fleet admiral, I am guessing), 2.) Spock Prime proved himself and I’m sure he would have addressed starfleet about Kirk in particular but also the entire crew (easy to see why they are all assigned there at the end of the movie), 3.) A lot of captains lost their lives at Vulcan, and 4.) I’m betting Pike ALSO talked to starfleet and said Kirk was “the man”. He was Pike’s prized recruit, after all.
Some of you may think I’m grasping at straws, but I don’t think so. Unfortunately, throughout history, it’s often who you know and fortunately what you do in a crisis that sometimes get you promoted/hired/etc. Just my take on it.
My trekkie side would have loved to see shatner one more time, and I think the scene would have totally fit in with the movie, but I do agree that it would have come out too contrived and too forced.
Also, doesnt it seem a bit odd that Spock would be carrying around with him a dvd of Kirk for almost a hundred year, not to mention after all that he has been through, stopping a supernova, having gone through a black hole, and beiing captured by nero and marooned on an icy planet, it would have seemed a bit far fetched if you ask me.
But if they had gone through with it I wouldnt have minded.
I like the description of the discarded Shatner scene. I think it would have fit well with the rest of the film.
159: What’s one more contrivance in a film that’s already full of them? My takeaway was that this film was about having fun; the Kirk scene would have added to the fun.
158 – all valid points, but in support of promoting cadet Kirk perhaps 2 grades ahead, and assigning him to a plum starship billet. It’s completely unbelieveable that a cadet, no matter how heroic, would jump 7 grades ahead before even graduation, AND be given command of a capital ship. Sure some captains and officers died in the battles, but there are hundreds other veteran, career officers in the fleet – there is just no way that they would hand a command to a cadet over all of them. It’s ludicrous.
#147, #152 – From my memories of Unification, Spock and Pardek had been friends for over 70 years; so, while Spock had permanently moved to Romulus duing the TNG era, he had been working towards unification for much much longer – maybe even before the maiden voyage of the 1701-B. That could also be be one “canon” explanation of why Spock wasn’t on the 1701-B when it launched.
The Shatner scene felt a little contrived to me, but it would have still been quite sentimental and there probably wouldn’t have been a dry eye in the theater after seeing it. I know the scene in question probably was never presented to Shatner but I’m sure he would have declined anyway since he said he wasn’t interested in a cameo. Shame on him for failing to realize that the quality of a role is far more important than the size of a role.
BTW, Cynthia Gouw still looks smokin’ hot!
I just don’t think the Shat would look good, I mean… Nimoy looks the same more or less. Just, older. Which is cool.
But the Shat, if he were in the movie he would have looked silly.
Oh and Gouw looks amazing.
I meant, “before even graduating”
if anybody should be in a bad mood about not having a cameo, it shouldnt be shatner, it should be levar burton. i mean wasnt the jellyfish his ship? or at least his design (if you read Countdown). they even show the jellyfish being worked on in the film, a nice cameo of him talking to spock in the meld flashback would have been pretty great and a nice tie in to TNG.
If wee assume that Star Trek, Stargate and Boston Legal share common continutity i think it would be perfect to meld them like this:
“During the visit to the Nimmo Bay, Denny and Alan discovered some weirt ring (Stargate) in the nearby, in the abandoned military instalation. After they accidentally press the buttons on the DHD, they are transported into 23rd century.
Denny and Allan there met Spock Primea and crew odf the ST XI USS Enterrpise, where they learned that Stargate program is connected with the Khan. They also learned that they aren’t Denny and Alana, but cpatain Kirk and dr. Daniel Jackson.
And they all together must stop Khan, which is infected with the Goa’uld symbiont. :D :D
I agree with 143 and 144. They should have begged Shat to do the ” Voiceover. Having Nimoy do it again felt redundant and a little anti-climactic. Regarding Shatner in the next one, maybe Mirror Mirror Kirk from the original timeline finds his way to the new timeline? :)
#162 – The movie really doesn’t make it clear how much time passed between the destruction of the Narada and Kirk’s promotion. The Enterprise was damaged during the battle and even ejected its warp cores; I’m sure it would have taken some time to get the ship back to Earth and refit it. It might have been the span of several months.
Given his standing with Pike, his pedigree (George Kirk seems to be quite revered in this timeline) and the fact that he pretty much saved the planet Earth and even bought Vulcan enough time to avoid extinction, the promotion doesn’t seem at all far fetched.
Besides, at the end of the day it’s just a movie and sometimes movies require the willing suspension of disbelief. If you can swallow gigantic spaceships that can travel faster than the speed of light and devices that can teleport you distances measured in light years, why is it so hard to accept the quick ascention of one character?
Speculation is great, but just remember: Shatner wanted a bigger part than just a cameo so try not to get too upset with orci and company. Something tells me Shat wanted a role along the lines of what Nimoy had, and if that had been the case, it REALLY would’ve seemed forced and too fanboyish. Just my oppinion though. It would’ve been nice if that scene worked its way into the film, but it didnt and the movie was still awesome so…it is what it is
@170
Shat deserves role equal to the Nimoy’s. So, it would be fair to put him into ST XII, and give him a proper screen time. DENNY CRANE!
@ 163 yeah, she does, doesn’t she?
About Kirk being Captain so fast. Is it possible that in this future you can graduate from the Academy at a variety of ranks depending on your results? Kind of like a pass/merit/distinction structure. So those who get distinctions get to graduate as Commanders or even Captains?
My suggestion. I don’t mind either way. It *feels* right in the movie and it can’t be argued that Kirk hasn’t proven himself to be a capable starship Captain.
#171 – You seem to forget that Nimoy wasn’t in Generations; they’ve already both appeared in a Trek film by themselves; so this tit for tat nonsense is pointless and moot.
Shatner has simply become too much a caricature of his former self to be taken seriously. Given the way he now looks and how his acting style has changed, I very much doubt he could be taken seriously if given any kind of substantial role as Kirk in a future movie.
Shatner’s comment (”he will be rich”) hits home why I no longer think of Kirk when I see Shatner. It’s so base and materialistic. I know money is the bottom line but clearly this movie is also an act of love. One reason it received such high marks from the critics is that everyone wants this movie to succeed.
#173
That is irrelevant – Shat is Denny Crane, Nimoy isn’t. :D :D
That would have been a great scene with Shatner, really putting the cherry on top an already delicious banana split.
And the idea, especially in THIS movie, that his inclusion, in this manner, would be “contrived” or “forced” is ludicrous. Now, there is absolutely no guarantee that Shatner would have even taken the role. But the guy has done numerous walk on cameos going all the way back to Arplane 2. I think he may have actually accepted had it been offered. But. alas. the decision to omit the scene was made, thus the offer never happened. More the pity.
#174
Liz, you have no sense for humor, and mr. Shatner is very funny and humoristic man. Simply THE LEGEND (especialy when pokes Takei :D :D)
#168 ” Regarding Shatner in the next one, maybe Mirror Mirror Kirk from the original timeline finds his way to the new timeline? :)”
Very cool. I like that. Not only would we get future Shatner/ Kirk, but evil ruthless Shatner/Kirk as the villain. Maybe Bob Orci will read that and toss it into his hat of ideas for a sequel.
The people that have a problem with Kirk’s rapid promotion should know that field promotions happen in the military. If not for Kirk’s actions in the film, the Enterprise might have met the fate of the other Starfleet ships and been destroyed. He finished the academy early (as he predicted) and he also saved Pike’s life (who I am sure recommended his promotion). The events in the film all worked for me, there was a feeling that everything that happened was very believable and I really did not have to ‘buy into’ anything. Nothing was forced – it was very well done. Thanks JJ, Bob, Alex and everyone involved!
Nero changed the timeline a LOT. There’s no way Kirk still dies at the same place and time. However, Kirk is still dead in the Prime Universe where none of this happened. Spock Prime cannot go back to his “own” time because there have been too many changes.
Better, non-hologram way to get Shatner in a sequel: If Spock Prime were to travel to the future from the the end of the movie to where alternate Kirk would be Shatner’s age. An older alternate Spock would also be there and alternate Spock would be the one who was Kirk’s friend.
Shatner and Nimoy could have an adventure, collecting early evidence of the impending supernova to give several decades of warning to Romulus. There are two Spocks both played by Nimoy: alternate Spock with black hair and ancient Spock Prime with gray hair. Spock Prime, being more emotional, could ironically substitute for old McCoy in the “trinity” (McCoy would still be alive somewhere but it wouldn’t be acceptable to recast old McCoy for this scene).
“Angels and Demons” is not fairing well on RT. 56%. “Ron Howard’s funniest film since “Splash.”
I personally would have loved the Shatner scene. Fine film as it was, but that would have made me leave the theatre breathless, and I probably would have gone in for a second viewing.
The Shatner scene would have brought it all full-circle. Bad decision to cut it – my opinion.
I’m one of the few who thinks this movie is pretty horrid in almost every respect (except most of the acting, which was fine), but I like the Shatner “final goodbye” idea. It would have reinforced the point elder Spock makes to younger Spock (which was sort of lost on me anyway), and would have been no more contrived than most of the rest of the movie. It could have led to Shatner doing the “Space … the final frontier …” speech, which would have been a nice nod, too.
And I was NOT one of those guys who begged for Shatner to appear in this film, BTW.
Scott B. out.
I hope someone mentions the scene to Shatner to get HIS reaction. I think in the end, he might have done it. He did seem to really want to be a part of it. And it was touching and a nice hand off to the new crew so that might have swayed him. I imagine we’ll hear something from his camp.
The movie was awesome so when is the sequel coming out???
“Angels and Demons” is not fairing well on RT. 56%. “Ron Howard’s funniest film since “Splash.””
I didn’t think the first one was very good and yet it did what– $760 million? If only half the folks who saw the first one, see this one, it will still do well. Religion and controversy sell tix I guess. ;)
No, what should happen is right after the scene with the two Spocks, there is suddenly a flash of light, and young Kirk’s motorcycle appears with Shatner in a lab coat with big funny glasses is riding it. Then Shatner Kirk tells young Spock he has to get Uhura and go with him back to the future-
“It’s not you guys, it’s your kids!”
Then they have to film parts two and three together, and part three can be a remake of “Specter of the Gun.”
Re: 187 – lol, mate! That would have salvaged the flick for me.
Scott B. out.
187: LOL!
oh gods… they used “smart and sexy” to describe the movie… this falls under prime Bull$#!+ Bingo when it comes to self-hype review quotes.
#33 I like it
thought for sequel:
spock prime is on Big E-mark 2 for some made up reason.
they discover a strange planet that eminates ” time distortion”.
they investigate, with spock prime going down with the guys for a look see they find a portal that reveals the pasts of those who look into it.
since spock prime is nearest to the portal, it is his past that is on display and since spock prime is older and from another time his past shows kirk prime, say on the Enterprise B.
scotty’s troll sees him, recognizes that it is an older version of the captain and that he is about to be sucked into a really cruddy plot device,goes thru and saves him, pulling him into the Orciverse as a result.
but the trauma of this universe pathing takes it toll on Kirk prime and he swells up like emporer palpatine with a bad toupee.
spock prime is stunned and thrilled and scared all at the same time.
he explains what is up for everyone, including the dazed kirk prime.
kOrci-kirk is dismayed at what he looks like, and mumbles to mccoy” thank god for Nero”, or something like that.
as they all discuss something or another, they recieve a call from the Big E-mark 2 about blah,blah, blah and just like that.. a new adventure.
and in this adventure it is kirk and spock prime who sacrifice to save something other than a metal bridge on a distant planet in a crummy movie!
and since this is another universe, maybe they do not have to pay Harlen Elison the rights, because his creation exsisted in another time and place
LOL!!
“Vulcan? Where we’re going we don’t need Vulcan!” Flash, pow.
When I saw the movie my impression was that our timeline (the so-called “Prime” timeline) was intact — otherwiser old Spock would have winked out of existence. I did not even see this new timeline as being in our universe. When Nero and Spock went through the black hole they entered into another parallel universe and things unfolded differently (and may have done so with or without Nero’s intervention).
I am fine with watching Star Trek in an alternate universe or timeline. It erases the certainty generated by -prequels. I also liked the fact that older Spock stays and helps with the Vulcan colony at the end. If this had have been Berman’s Trek they could not have resisted killing him off…..
That scene written for William Shatner sounded pretty cool, although I would have been happy with him just doing the Monologue at the end of the Movie!
There other way you could have done it was during the mind meld with Young Kirk. Showing Kirk elder Spock’s memories could have also included the last time Spock Prime saw Kirk Prime; perhaps just prior to the events on Enterprise-B.
Maybe that could have also allowed for the reinsertion of Kirk’s prologue in Star Trek Generations, where he is restless and does the orbital sky dive.
#168—-”Regarding Shatner in the next one, maybe Mirror Mirror Kirk from the original timeline finds his way to the new timeline? :)”
Now that would be great in a traditional fanboy film (if a bit silly), but I don’t think they are going to give up trying to appeal to broader audiences.
Try explaining the “Mirror Universe” to general audiences.
I mean….seriously. Pretend you have never seen one of those episodes and then try to explain it to yourself!
Yep….I thought so.
In this timeline evrerything is changed so Kirk never dies in Generations, couldnt they just put the Shatner in as Kirk coming back from the alternate timelines future in someway?
I’d be fine with The Shat appearing as Tiberius Kirk, Jim Kirk’s granddad. He is after all mentioned in the movie.
The only place I could have seen Shatner working as a cameo was in the “mindmeld” between Spock and Kirk (Pine). They wouldn’t have had to film new stuff at all… we could have just got glimpses of Shatner and crew from the movies. It was basically a dream sequence… they could have worked old images of Kirk and the gang in there somewhere. Maybe record some new dialouge with Shatner talking (with a new shot of Spock reacting to what he is saying off camera.) That would have worked fine.
Shatner should have appeared as the shuttle driver in ST09. He could have turned around and scolded the young Kirk, Sulu, and Olsen for not getting a better travel deal….
The Negotiator!
@198
Do you have an actual storyline for this idea that isn’t going to make the majority of people go WTF?
I think there seems an awful lot of feeling that, if there was some way, some how, the shat and Kirk elder was re-kindled in even a scene, it would mean a lot to a lot of folks.
#158: Great thoughts about Kirk’s promotion. Remember how Pike tells Kirk in the bar that Starfleet is losing its edge… so to me it made perfect sense that Pike would give him the captain’s chair after essentially saving the Federation. Honestly, it was fine in the context of the movie, and similar things do happen in the real world.
How cool was it to see Pike in the TMP-style admiral’s uniform?
#203 … You’re right, and now JJ himself is revivng the idea; he gave that interview the other day saying the sequel “gives them another chance to work with Shatner.” C’mon, JJ, put a Shat in it. You know you want to!
Regarding Kirk’s promotion to captain right out of the academy–it’s just as implausible as Admiral Kirk’s demotion to captain AND getting command of a starship. Officers don’t get demoted in today’s military. They ‘retire’ if they’re able. Otherwise they just end their service and move on.
It’s Star Trek, you know? Sometimes you gotta roll with it.
#199
Now I think that would be okay. As long as we don’t go down the time travel well again.
#201– Hah! Good one. Talk about product placment…..
“Regarding Kirk’s promotion to captain right out of the academy–it’s just as implausible as Admiral Kirk’s demotion to captain AND getting command of a starship.”
Have to disagree. Yes, going backwards wasn’t very realistic. However, at least he knew how to command and it was what he was best suited for. A Cadet as an instant Captain? Not a chance and kinda dampened a movie I really enjoyed up to that point. He could have just have easliy have graduated with honors, been given a higher rank than average and we could have then seen him getting command of the ship maybe 5 years down the road in that last scene.
Wish the Shatner scene was actually in the movie.
@41 – Wow, a Haynes manual for the Enterprise? I have one for my 1999 Ford Ranger pickup. That would be quite interesting to see a “tear-down and rebuild” of the big E.
That manual would have to be about forty-seven thousand pages long. But it would be interesting to see how the captain’s chair attaches to the floor of the bridge, for example. :-) Or how to change the Delaney valve in Jeffries Tube #17-D with just a 3/8 inch wrench and a rubber mallet. Or maybe what kind of fine Corinthian leather to use to reupholster the crew chairs on the bridge. Or the proper procedure for relieving the plasma pressure on dilithium chamber #4 before changing out the verterium cortenide coils. Or the one device on the entire ship that is irreplaceable, that bears the legend, “No user-serviceable parts inside,” and it takes about six weeks to get a replacement from Starfleet’s parts depot at Ogden.
Didn’t any of you stay and read the credits at the end of the movie? SHATNER IS IN THE MOVIE! He played the part of Scotty’s alien companion. The Shat lost 150 lbs and 18″ of height to play the role. What an actor!
As one who loved the film, I think that proposed Shatner cameo is pretty awful.
On the other hand, cutting out the Kirk backstory with the Uncle seems to have left some viewers with a douchey taste in their mouth. The ‘Sabotage’ scene would have been a great exclamation point after the Uncle scenes, but in the end, you just can’t say until you start piecing the footage together.
They made a calculated decision to make a fast, almost relentless movie, and it paid off. But like many on these boards and plenty elsewhere, I think Kirk should be dialed down to Douche Factor 3.
Pine should do some Shakespeare, to cultivate that part of his performance.
Movie Mob: Chris Pine is the new Tom Cruise? What a horrible thing to say! 20 years ago that might have been a complement. Now he’s a Zenu-loving, lift-wearing, couch-jumping freak.
No Chris, don’t aspire to that, please
And about Shatner and his cameo? I vote no. This new movie is all about moving forward. Every day, we are confronted with choices that determine which branch of the destiny tree we follow. And more choices after that. If you understand the theory of Schroedinger’s Cat, you know what I’m talking about. But you cannot move back, only forward. So when Nero changed the timeline, there was no going back. The “prime” universe still exists, but now there’s an alternate reality in which ship and uniform designs are different, but the basic history of the universe has played out the same up until the point where the black hole emerged.
And one could say that the “alternate” reality has always existed, too, because how else would the Kelvin be able to discover the “lightning storm in space?”
But you could make the argument that the Kelvin was a different ship in the “prime” reality, but crewed by the same people – a la “Yesterday’s Enterprise.” And when the black hole appeared, that’s when everything was turned on its ear.
My argument is, nothing from the “prime” timeline (save for Spock) should exist or even be mentioned in the “new” timeline. It’s all about moving forward, and that’s what the franchise should do. In fact, I wouldn’t necessarily include Nimoy in the sequel, because his role was to reintroduce the franchise to those in the know, and he’s done that. So let’s just move forward and tell new stories, not rehash the old ones, because the galaxy’s too big to not have more interesting stories left.
And stay away from the technobabble! This isn’t about the technology, it’s about the people. Ships don’t explore, people explore. Ships don’t go boldly, people do. As much as the Enterprise should be a “character”, it’s really only the thing that gets our heroes from point A to point B, much as the wagon train did in Roddenberry’s inspiration.
Ahh no! I shouldn’t have watched that video about the Kirk scene, now I’m a little bummed out. Ahh well…
208. krikzil
“Have to disagree. Yes, going backwards wasn’t very realistic. However, at least he knew how to command and it was what he was best suited for”
What I’m referring to is the fact that in the modern US military there is no such thing as demotion in the officer ranks. Nor can one spend an indefinite amount of time at one’s present rank. You either move up or you get out. I was a navy officer. Closet Trekker was a marine officer, so I’m sure he’ll tell you the same thing.
Star Trek IV’s depiction of Admiral Kirk’s demotion was just a glaring plot contrivance to get him in the captain’s chair. Just like cadet Kirk’s instant promotion was. Both are equally unrealistic.
You just have to say “meh!” and get on with it.
How about this: last night I saw the new movie for the third time, and then once I got home I started watching the new TWOK Bluray. Halfway in the movie something struck me: I missed Chris Pine. Seriously! Nimoy and DeForest are still great, but Shatner, sorry, even in his best acting movie he is just a bad actor… He has charisma, sure, but he just doesn’t know how to perform, and his mannerisms are all more evident now. Then I saw bits of TMP. Excellent transfer btw, too bad it isn’t the DE. Anyway, now that was Shatner in his worst. I just wonder what Bob Wise thought of him… :)
209 – You and me both…
#208—”He could have just have easliy have graduated with honors, been given a higher rank than average and we could have then seen him getting command of the ship maybe 5 years down the road in that last scene.”
100% agreed!
The promotion scene did not have to be so unbelievable, IMO. It could have simply been depicted in 2264-65, instead of 2258. I can’t see how that would have taken anything away from the story.
#211—-”Didn’t any of you stay and read the credits at the end of the movie? SHATNER IS IN THE MOVIE! He played the part of Scotty’s alien companion. The Shat lost 150 lbs and 18″ of height to play the role. What an actor!”
Lol.
And kudos to the makeup people! And here we were so highly prasing those who worked on “The Curious case Of Benjamin Button”…
This Shatner cameo makes no sense — Kirk died something like 80 years before Spock went to Romulus in “Unification.”
I’m surprised more people aren’t pointing this out, Orci and Kurtzman’s description in that video is nonsensical with the canon that they’re trying to accomodate.
Nice try, and thematically it could have been interesting, but it would have also left the series on exactly the wrong note — I think it was a huge mistake not to have CHRIS PINE reading the “Space, the final frontier…” text at the end of the movie. To have the reboot/relaunch of Trek to end with Shatner would have been going in exactly the opposite direction.
Placating the fans is something one does at the beginning of a reboot, not at the end, after all of the work has been done to relaunch the characters. Thankfully, this never came to pass.
#216—”Star Trek IV’s depiction of Admiral Kirk’s demotion was just a glaring plot contrivance to get him in the captain’s chair. Just like cadet Kirk’s instant promotion was. Both are equally unrealistic.
You just have to say “meh!” and get on with it.”
In the end, yes.
However, I still wish the promotion scene would not have taken place in 2258. The simple solution would have been to push the story once again several years ahead.
I’m not saying that it ruined the film. I just think that the proposed alternative would have been an improvement.
I am on record in this thread as loving the Shatner scene and I would love to see it as an extra on the DVD if at all possible. However I am not sure I want Shatner or Nimoy in the next movie as much as I love them. Unless Bob and Alex and Damon somehow figure a neat trick in how to do it right, which certainly isn’t beyond them.
The reason why is we have punched the reset button, so lets go already. I don’t want to see Earth anymore other than perhaps very briefly. I want the ship out on the final frontier. Boldly going out explore strange new worlds and seeking our new life and new civilizations. Bob, I beseech you, make this happen!
If it was an extra on the DVD, it’d just be a snippet of the screenplay. It wasn’t filmed — why are people not understanding this?
And, believe it or not, I actually take a different view of Admiral Kirk’s demotion in TVH and return to starship command.
I think of General George S. Patton Jr.’s behavior in WWII. Despite committing several court-martial offenses during the Sicilian Campaign—-including two instances of assault, disobeying orders of the Allied Commander, and even ignoring his specific directives a second time—-TPTB are still unable to deny his continued worth to the war effort.
Even though many (Marshall, Eisenhower, Alexander, Montgomery, and Bradley) had every reason to demand Patton’s head, he is still utilized as a highly effective decoy and successfully pins down the German 15th Army at Calais, and subsequently returns to battlefield command in time to spearhead the Allied breakout of the hedgerow country in Normandy…and of course, the rest is history.
Sometimes, even in real life, talent cannot be denied….and isn’t.
The way i see it. Trek does not have legs. It has Nacelles and they are in for a long stint in Warp speed. I seen trek again on Tuesday in imax and nthats my 5th time to see it. Imax is simply the best way to see the Movie. it was jammed packed and sold out here in Austin and in fact it is sold out for the rest of the week here in Austin for all Showings of Trek. Haveing the Shat would have been fine but i think not haveing him is a better thing. Nimoy did a great job on the movie. I also have to say i love all the Music of Trek. The main theme at the start and when Kirk and Mccoy see the Big E is just the best.
Trek does not have legs. It has Nacelles!!!!. Warp Speed at the Box office.
I have no problem with the Kirk promotion to captain.
1. First of all he saved the planet and his captain.
2. I am sure Pike recommended Kirk as captain, especially because he is the one that wanted kirk in starfleet and made him first officer even though he was not supposed to be on the ship.
3. I do feel time would try to repair itself and that being they would feel compelled (not knowing y to make him captain).
4. It was his destiny, and nimoys spock could have told him he needed to go get some whales lol.
Just chiming in
“Or maybe what kind of fine Corinthian leather to use to reupholster the crew chairs on the bridge. ”
No way. The Federation now only uses the finest Naugahyde! The last time Corinthian leather was used was on a DY-100 sleeper ship which was launched in 1996…
I really don’t see how we can get Shatner Kirk in ST12 unless there is another time travel thing going on.
UNLESS…
Kirk is poisoned aka “the deadly years” and he turns into his old self for about 10 minutes as Shatner and then bones cures him and he returns to normal age to save the day as usual.
OR
Shatner doesn’t play Kirk, but that kind of defeats the point really.
OR
They do some weird thing with his mind and he has a dream sequence where he sees himself at different ages.
Incidentally if Bob is reading this I have more ideas…
Shameless plug I know
169, 179 – don’t get me wrong. I am not rejecting this movie because of Kirk’s arguably ridiculous promotion at the end. I can certainly suspend disbelief. However, if you just want to discuss the relative sense of that one particular fact, there really is no way to justify it. Hey, isn’t what this forum is for? To debate silly things like this?
Yes, there is precedent for battlefield promotions. I’m an Army officer and a history buff (especially with the Navy, which explains my love of Trek since a young age) so I definitely know that. But there has NEVER been anything even remotely like a cadet being promoted 7 grades, AND being given command of a main capital ship in the fleet, either in real history or on Trek. The only time I’ve seen such a thing happen is in a B movie. Promotion of several grades, and command of a smaller ship (which still would be a huge advancement over his peers) would be “realistic.” But not the Big E! Come on! The only way to justify this is to say, “I liked the movie, so what, just let it go.” I’ve done that! But someone brought this up, so I’m commenting on how it’s the most “unrealistic” non-scientific thing in the film (and arguably, ever in ST). Just academically speaking.
ST is a very intelligent show, as we all know. Whenever something happens, Trek usually gives us a fairly plausible fantasy explanation. For example, Kirk’s demotion to Captain, and return to command, in ST IV – not crazy, considering that he saved the world and was ALREADY a legendary starship commander. Here, even as a cadet with very advanced skills and intellect who saved the world, Kirk STILL has no command experience and has never served on a starship. Plus, hundreds of career officers are in the fleet. None of them are in line for command? None of them are gifted? All the first, second, and third officers on every ship was killed? Please. Some, maybe, but not even a majority (remember, the fleet that Spock wanted to meet up with? Just one of many remaining Starfleet ships out there by the end of the movie).
It’s OK – you don’t have to accept everything to love the movie.
From Wikipedia:
At the start of the Civil War, Custer was a cadet at the United States Military Academy at West Point, and his class’s graduation was accelerated so that they could enter the war. Custer graduated last in his class and served at the First Battle of Bull Run as a staff officer for Major General George B. McClellan in the Army of the Potomac’s 1862 Peninsula Campaign. Early in the Gettysburg Campaign, Custer’s association with cavalry commander Maj. Gen. Alfred Pleasonton earned him a promotion from first lieutenant to brigadier general of volunteers at the age of 23.
First lieutenant in Army is equivalent to Lt(JG) which is what was Saavik’s rank in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Considering I’m pretty sure Kirk was not last in his class, and actually saved the Earth, a jumpstep promotion is not unreasonable. I get the impression command candidates like Saavik or Kirk graduate as a LtJG instead of an Ensign.
227 – sorry, didn’t mean to exclude you. See 230.
In the end, I’m going to have to agree with a few posters on here and say that “the reset button has been pushed”. No more cameos from Nimoy, Shatner, Koenig, or any other previous actor. JJ’s intention was to relaunch the franchise (alternate timeline or no), and he’s done just that. Let the Supreme Court go to work and come up with the next one.
Also, no stupid Kahn do-overs or anything like that. For Christ’s sake, we an entire UNIVERSE full of characters and stories just waiting to be told. We don’t need to Antonion Bandaras (…or anybody else) try to pull off Kahn or some such nonsense.
New director, New writers, NEW BALLGAME!
TOP 10 TOP WORST WAYS TO BRING SHATNER BACK USING CANON:
1) Deadly Years Kirk: Pine is infected with the same disease and ages into Shatner, complete with shrinkage.
2) Mirror, Mirror Kirk: Kirk never sacrifices himself to help Picard defeat Soran, much less save the Enterprise B. Therefore he is available to travel back and cross over from the future Mirror Universe at any time.
3) Nemesis Kirk: In their first experiment, the Romulans create a Cloned Kirk who ages prematurely into Shatner and seeks revenge on Pine.
4) Nemisis Prime Kirk: Prime Romulans clone Kirk from Kirk’s remains on Veridian III, but banish him to Nero’s mining ship. After going back in time, Kirk leaves Nero’s ship and ages into Shatner who finally shows up.
5) The Enemy Within Kirk: A variation on the classic transporter accident due to changes alternate Scotty made, results in Kirk being split into old Shatner and baby Pine.
6) Generations Prime Kirk: Not only can Shatner exit the Nexus at any time, but in any alternate universe. The Enterprise passes through the Nexus and extracts Prime Kirk.
7) The Tholian Web Kirk: Those wacky Mirror Tholians break through into the normal universe at a later date and this time snag the Enterprise instead of the Constellation. Shatner is finally rescued by Pine.
8) City On The Edge of Forever Kirk: Pine goes back to rescue McCoy, but instead only 50 years. Unable to set the future right, an aged Shatner makes his way to warn the Kelvin to prevent the events as they unfold, then Vulcan and finally Pine about the Guardian.
9) All Our Yesterdays Kirk: Pine goes back 50 years to rescue Spock, but is instead stranded in the planet’s past. In a reboot of the film, Pine shows up only to be confronted with Shatner to stop him from going through the portal.
10) Complete 2nd Reboot a la The Incredible Hulk Prime Kirk: The entire franchise is rebooted again, but this time, in the comic book backstory Prime Kirk is captured by rogue Klingons to finally pay for his injustices against the Klingons over the years, but Kirk manages to escape and causes Klingon to explode and collapse into a black hole which pulls Kirk and the Klingons into an alternate universe where the Klingons are bent on revenge.
Some thoughts…
Based on a recent Orci/Kurtzman interview, where they flat out say time travel and the original actors are no longer necessary, doesn’t that pretty much eliminate the idea of Shatner returning? It’s just like this movie–they’re talking, getting our hopes up, and ultimately not delivering.
When it comes to getting Shatner in the movie, none of these guys have any credibility. Until there is a signature on a contract, there’s no way I will believe a word they say on the topic. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
As for this movie, OF COURSE it alters Generations. The entire original timeline is wiped out.
Generations is done.
But then again, who cares, since this group isn’t the original timeline?
The cameo as written also would have violated the canon of Generations, but the writers would have had an out. There is no way Kirk would have known Spock was heading to Romulus. If Kirk knew that, then he clearly never was on the Enterprise B. If he wasn’t on the Enterprise B, he wouldn’t have gone into the nexus, met Picard, and wouldn’t have been killed due to Picard’s incompetence.
But so what? In Relics, Scotty thought Kirk was alive–something impossible had Kirk been on the E-B. One would be able to argue then that with this cameo, Kirk lived on in the 23rd century and that message was left naturally. That’s the beauty of this new timeline. It can be used to explain the bad writing of the Berman era.
Because of the Relics line, it’s arguable that Generations takes place in the new timeline, not the old one. You have that argument with or without that Shatner cameo.
I think Abrams is making a mistake by having ST12 take place in the new timeline.
They have the setup for an awesome movie, that could involve Shatner and Nimoy. All they have to do is make the movie about restoring the old timeline.
It is BEYOND out of character for this great crew to allow all of this to stand.
Think City on the Edge for a second. BILLIONS died that did not die before. History altered. People never born. How is this not even an issue? Spock Prime would dedicate the rest of his life to fixing this, not simply rebuilding New Vulcan.
And there is no way Kirk and crew would not help them. They do what’s right. That’s their nature.
I understand the purpose of what they wanted to do, but in doing this, they hurt Star Trek unbelievably. But they also set up a good part II that could even get Eric Bana back should they desire. As for future movies beyond that, they could just set it in the original timeline and write other adventures.
I think it would have worked and would have made the ending even better.
I am a little confused to why the message had to be before Spock went to live with the Romulans.
Why couldn’t the message been before Generation or just some message Kirk sent Spock I mean they were friends for a long time.
No no no no Khan! Final Frontier! Strange New Worlds! New Life and Civilizations! Boldly Go!
C’mon folks, get on board and lets raise our voices so the supreme court can hear us!
JMN
231 – they graduate as Ensigns, I’m pretty sure. In any event, I am very familiar with your example, but I do not think it is comparable. The ranks of Union officers (and academy plebes) was decimated by the defection of southern officers. The class was accelerated to enter the war, yes, but also suffered this mass defection. Additionally, brigadiers were often made thanks to political or personal relationships, as well as the fact that battlefield prowess was not exhibited by a large number of officers. For example, most generals in the Revolutionary War became so because of their riches, not their military backgrounds (Benedict Arnold was the most notable exception. Even Washington was not a real deserving General at first. He was a Major in the French and Indian War, but then became an influential and affluent Virginian gentleman, not a military man. There just weren’t any other officers to assume command). Finally, a brigadier was considered a significant, but more junior level of command.
In Trek, we’re not dealing with a nascent military or a less-structured political or military class. We’re dealing with a professional interstellar fleet, which I think is much more accurately compared to the Navy of the last 40 years than the army of the Civil War era. Even with the damage the fleet suffered at Nero’s hands, it was not decimated. I just don’t see the comparison to Custer. And, in addition to the background circumstances, even he had to serve in the field as an officer before getting a promotion to brigadier (thanks to his personal relationship with the gentry class). Finally, as I said, a brigadier command like Custer’s is not anywhere near the equivalent of a capital ship command.
#231—-Which is why I have said ever since that plot detail was revealed months ago that you really have to go pretty far back to find precedent for such a thing.
However, you left out one important detail.
Custer’s battlefield promotion to Brigadier General was temporary. Like many officers with such inflated rank at the end of the Civil War, Custer was brought back down to Earth at its end.
By the time he was killed at Little Big Horn, Custer held the rank of Colonel.
As a former Marine officer, I can assure you that, while battlefield promotions do occur, they are almost always temporary and usually task specific.
Now there is the WWI-era exception of USMC Sgt. Dan Daly, who was given a battlefield commission to the rank of 1stLt.—and eventually held the rank of Major.
There is no getting around it. Cadet to Captain in a matter of weeks (if it was even that long) is an incredible stretch. But don’t blame Kirk—-blame Pike.
234 – HILARIOUS
Star Trek Tuesday Estimate: $6.45 million:
http://www.showbizdata.com/dailybox.cfm
Yesterday the actuals came out at about 3:30 or so I think.
This is a drop of 14%
Comparable drops from first Monday to first Tuesday:
Wolverine: 15%
Batman Begins: 18.5%
Iron Man: 6.2%
Beat Wolverine’s first Tuesday by $2 million. Star Trek’s first Monday and Tuesday beat Wolverine’s first Monday and Tuesday by over $4 million now.
Looks like we’re going to have to wait until Friday for Star Trek to pass $100 million, but it may pass Wolverine for the amount earned over the same amount of time by then (Wolverine made $102 million after 7 days)
239 – right on.
241 – I mean we might have to wait until Thursday for it to pass $100 million. If Star Trek drops 14% Tues-to-Wed and Wed-to-Thurs, Star Trek will make about $5.6 and $4.8 million respectively those days, putting it at about $103.6 million after 7+ days, beating Wolverine for the same amount of time by about $1 million or so.
72-
Exactly. You’ve nailed it.
The celebrations, as well as the talk of a sequel, aren’t premature at all. There’s no question this movie will make a ton of money for Paramount. Based on the 90% “first week” formula, they need to bring in $167 million worldwide in the first week to get back the entire $150 million spent in production. They’ll probably fall just short of that. But no matter how you slice it, this is still a phenomenal result. Many movies don’t start making money until the DVD sales are in. Some don’t make money at all. Star Trek 2009 is looking at profitability 2 to 3 weeks in.
Over the last 12 years, First Contact has made nearly $60 million in DVD sales and $115 million in rentals. So, you can’t judge profitability purely by box office results either. Even the Trek movies that totally flopped with critics and audiences have broke even (or made modest money for them) over the years. That’s why Paramount keeps on coming back to this franchise. It isn’t because the network executives want to honor Gene’s memory. They don’t care about that. It is because Star Trek is a “cash cow” that has been very good to them over the years.
Can someone plese explain how MTV can justify showing a BRITISH ad to UK viewers trying to look at this clip, let you sit through it, THEN tell you they can’t show you the clip for copyright reasons????
Like #1 said, What do we do about the Orci/Kurtzman clip if we’re in Canada?
I don’t know if anyone else has mentioned this, but after multiple viewings of this movie, it dawned on me, if nero had already been in the past for 25 years, why was there a lightning storm in space when he arrived at vulcan? unless this is how the narada warps around in space and everywhere it arrives it creates that lightning storm…not just when it came through the red matter singularity.
I have to admit, I was skeptical about any kind of Shatner working in that movie, but listening to them describe it… wow, that actually would have been good.
I do agree with 14. that it would have presented a continuity problem. As I recall, Unification starts with Ambassador Spock only recently having defected. In fact, in that episode (or was in “Sarek”?) Picard mentions having attended Spock’s wedding. (A fact that nobody ever seems to mention, BTW.) So, if Spock was still around in Federation space for Picard to have met him before Unification, he couldn’t have already been on Romulus during Kirk’s final years.
Also, I don’t understand the point of such a farewell message from Kirk. As we see him in Generations, it’s not like he’s dying, he’s just retired.
So… I suppose to sum up, I think the overall sentiment for including ShatKirk in Star Trek was sound, but the continuity with the Prime universe falls down.
#197 “I mean….seriously. Pretend you have never seen one of those episodes and then try to explain it to yourself!”
Regarding the idea of using Mirror universe elements as a plot device in the next movie, It’s no harder than presenting this new Star Trek movie to a modern audience whose knowledge of TOS isn’t required. The writers did that admirably and could easily take the concept of a mirror universe and bring it to the forefront of another big science fiction movie. All they have to do is be creative and use good writing. Clearly they are both quite capable of that task!
Having said that, I must mirror the opinion that the next movie should be based waaaaay out there…in the unknown, facing danger and peril while EXPLORING the unknown.
Please… no Khans or Gorn captains or Hortas or Klingons. Let’s put this crew light years away from the nearest starbase and have some FRESH new creative adventures in the best tradition of TOS. I’m confident the writers are up to the task.
247 – I noticed that the 2nd time through, that there was an inconsistency.
They actually said the lightning storm was in the Neutral Zone. However, how this was supposed to be related to Vulcan’s distress signal, I don’t know, as the last time I knew, Vulcan wasn’t near the neutral zone.
Oh well lol.
58. SaphronGirl :
i’m dreading the inevitable love-triangle that is all too present in JJ’s work (lost, fringe). your solution would be awesome… i’mma go write some fan/fic right now! j/k
please no love triangles, trapezoids, or pentagrams in Star Trek “2″ !!!
#239 – what’s interesting about this, is my point about WILLING SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF.
When watching entertainment of any kind, one assumes the concepts of the context. If it’s experimental theatre one assumes no sets, if it’s Star Trek, one assumes a healthy disregard for science and physics, and so make no attempts to apply known theories, etc.
This argument constantly crops up when defending anything that people complain about as being unrealistic. Particularly on this forum.
However, from the beginning JJ Abrams has said he wanted Star Trek to seem more “real”, hence the detail on the E’s hull and hand-held cameras and “grounding” the characters on Earth. This is not about making Trek realistic, but about making it accessible within the unrealistic context of Trek. Since Trek is completely unbelievable to begin with, What JJ is talking about is keeping the experience believable within context and keeping the audience engrossed within the movie.
The problem comes when the film breaks its own rules of observing believable associations within the confines of the unbelievable universe within which they exist. In other words, calls attention to itself by TAKING THE AUDIENCE OUT OF THEIR IMMERSION WITHIN THE MOVIE.
Establishing a military milieu based on something familiar to the audience like the US Navy and then field promoting Kirk to Captain of the fleet flagship is one of those things that takes the audience out of the movie. I have argued that the redressed factory engineering sets do something similarly, they violate the conventions which the audience has accepted already.
These inconsistencies are the equivalent of breaking the 4th wall in theatre and directly involving the audience where the convention has otherwise been audience as unseen witness to the action. Imagine a movie set within the early 1930’s where the writer’s use a TV to supply some necessary information, when the TV was not a common household item until the 1950’s despite the rationalization that it had been invented. These are the kinds of leaps that will take some people out of a movie and make them think about where they are and what they are doing instead of what is happening in the story.
On the other hand, thanks to popular shows like American Idol where unknown teenagers can rocket to superstardom overnight, most audiences will likely to readily accept that a boot-camp graduate could be promoted to Admiral within a week under the proper contrived circumstances.
the only love triangle in star trek should be kirk and two alien babes.
119. “you would have to say that when they save the planet in IV, in one reality Earth dies at that point.”
Exactly correct. There is some other universe in which Kirk decides it’s too risky to try to go back in time, and therefore Earth is not saved.
254 – Or he goes back in time and they can’t fix the warp drive, or they go back and time and can’t find/save the whales, or they get fried trying to come back, etc., etc., etc.
There are a multitude of timelines where Earth bites it, and not just in STIV.
254 – Indeed, there is probably a timeline where Spock gets to the supernova in Countdown in time and Romulus is saved and Nero doesn’t go rampaging back. Indeed, this can somewhat be attested to by the fact that Nero DOESN’T appear in the prime universe.
#249—-The Mirror Universe stories (at least the original one) are fun for those of us who are long established Trek fans. I just think it is far too silly a concept for the average moviegoer. The MU is, IMO, one of the campiest elements of Star Trek out there.
#250—-”They actually said the lightning storm was in the Neutral Zone. However, how this was supposed to be related to Vulcan’s distress signal, I don’t know, as the last time I knew, Vulcan wasn’t near the neutral zone.”
I don’t think that has ever been precluded by canon Trek.
In fact, it almost seems improbable that it would not be. How would Earth and its allies fight a war with Romulus and Remus in the mid-22nd Century if it was all that far away?
Could we please get a transcript of the interview? I’m also outside the US and the clip is not on You Tube as far as I can tell. The world demands it people! :-)
249. I just hope they don’t use time travel or mirror/alternate universes of any sort in the plot of the next one, and give us a breather from that stuff. It makes for an interesting story, but only when it’s the exception, not the norm. This is Star Trek, not Doctor Who (and don’t get me wrong, I love Doctor Who).
250. I believe the point of the lightning storm was that is how Narada’s weapons manifested themselves in sensors. The Neutral Zone reference relates to Nero breaking out of Rura Penthe, which was cut from the film except for Uhura picking up the signals about it.
252. I suspect that a viewer unfamiliar with past engineering sets had no issues at all with the redressed factory/brewery sets. As for Kirk’s rapid promotion, you point out that a contemporary audience of Idol watchers will probably accept it, and he’s hardly a “boot-camp graduate”; we’re given to understand that brash nature notwithstanding, he’s a star student who has gone through 3 years of Academy training on the command track. Given his performance during the events of the movie and the elimination of a large number of experienced captains at the hands of Nero, (and it’s fiction) I don’t think it’s unreasonable to the point of breaking suspension of disbelief. One could assume that Pike had considerable say in the matter as well.
259 – I thought the lightning storm in/near the Neutral Zone was from Spock coming back?
257 – I realize these maps aren’t canon, Vulcan isn’t particularly close to the Neutral Zone.
(warning, big image):
http://skinwalker.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/trekmap2.jpg
#252—-”Establishing a military milieu based on something familiar to the audience like the US Navy and then field promoting Kirk to Captain of the fleet flagship is one of those things that takes the audience out of the movie. I have argued that the redressed factory engineering sets do something similarly, they violate the conventions which the audience has accepted already. ”
The funny thing is that only more traditional Star Trek fans are really complaining about it. Nitpicking is in our nature.
Besides us—-who is really sitting around after this movie thinking about this?
The truth is that no one else really cares.
Ironically, the average moviegoer actually probably goes into a Star Trek movie with less expectation of ‘plausibility’ than the average Star Trek fan does.
Again, while the cameo as written would definitely mess with Generations, Abrams would have had the out provided in Relics.
What if we stopped following the original timeline after All Good Things. Look at some established things that Berman screwed up.
Original timeline
Scotty thought Kirk was alive in Relics (which allows Orci’s scene to NOT be a canon violation).
New Timeline:
Kirk dies on Veridian
Original Timeline:
Valtane is on the crew of the Excelsior. The events of ST6 take place 3 months after Praxis explodes. Valtane is on the bridge crew at the end of the movie saying goodbye to Kirk.
New Timeline:
The events of St6 take place 3 days after Praxis explodes, and Valtane is killed in the interim.
Original Timeline:
Enterprise D survives well past All Good Things. 25 years later, the ship is still in service, with a third nacelle, and Admiral Riker helps old man Picard. (All Good Things)
New Timeline:
Enterprise D blows up in Generations.
The new timeline actually CAN incorporate canon AND help fix some of the Berman era.
263 – Well, the explanation for Scotty was that he was disoriented. It’s been a while since I’ve seen that ep so I can’t say personally whether I find that credible.
For the All Good Things example, I wouldn’t bet 2 cents on a future Q showed me happening.
as for the Excelsior thing, well…you can’t win every time lol
#261—-”I realize these maps aren’t canon”
Nope. I do recall a map being displayed on the bridge of the Enterprise in “Balance Of Terror”, however, although I recall no way of discerning the location and distance of Vulcan relative to the Neutral Zone from that map.
It is just common sense that they would be fairly close, given the notion of a mid-22nd Century conflict.
257. Closettrekker -
Ya know up to now the only real place I have tended to disagree with you strongly about was TFF and Shatner/Kirk post TVH. But now ya went and done it again.
Done correctly there is nothing silly at all about the Mirror Universe. But I do agree it is a hell of a lot of fun. Evil doppelgangers have been used very effectively in other films and stories many times.
That said, we’ve already dealt with alternate universes in this movie. We don’t need more.
Final Frontier, Strange New Worlds, New Life and Civilizations, Boldly Go!
JMN
@264 Speaking of Q, Generations would have been a better movie if they used Q has a plot device instead of that stupid Nexus stuff.
265 – Then again, the NX-01 Enterprise did fly to the Klingon homeworld in, what? 4 days?… (even though it would take 4 days to get to Vulcan from Earth in, what was it, TMP?)
267 – well, it would probably be better than Generations, but my problem with using Q in a movie is that…you can’t beat him, and any ending which Q resolves by snapping his fingers is just a dues ex machina, unless Q just set up some sort of test that he wasn’t going to bail the Enterprise out of, but that would kind of be a lame set up. But that’s just me *shrugs*
252 – well said. My relative disappointment (or the taking of myself out of the immersion within the movie) in this one point (Kirk’s promotion) is entirely due to the structure of starfleet as we’ve come to know it through TOS and beyond. I saw nothing in the movie to suggest that the fleet is materially different in concept or structure than we’ve known, so I can’t justify the promotion and the award of the fleet flagship command to a cadet. Heroism and ability do not equal experience or, ultimately, qualification to command a starship (not yet, anyhow. Soon, and faster than anyone else, but not yet).
Scotty may have been disoriented, but there is no evidence whatsoever that he was wrong about Kirk being alive. It’s not like the TNG crew wouldn’t have said something. Hell, Riker knew instantly about the maiden voyage of the E-B. It’s actually MORE likely that time travel affected Kirk’s fate and got him killed, and had JJ used this cameo, he actually would have been ok because of Relics.
The odds of Tuvok existing in both timelines are next to zero. The odds are just too overwhelming and it would be a lot of suspension of disbelief to be able to accept that–not when they said that 10000 Vulcans or so are left.
The Valtane thing sure makes it interesting. Perhaps the Nero timeline CAUSED Tuvok’s birth.
By the way, Spock Prime would NEVER allow that to stand, but that’s another topic.
#264 Having watched Relics a hundred times since it aired, I can tell you that in no way is Scotty anything BUT lucid when he came out the transporter. The explanation is simple. The writers of Generations were sloppy!
I agree with Bob Orci. I think the Shatner scene would have worked quite well . It would have been very emotional.
Maybe in sequel?
This is a quote from J.J. Abrams himself over at Trekweb.
In an interview with TrekWeb, “Trek” helmer J.J Abrams says it’s ”actually a possibility”’ that William Shatner may be back as a latter-day Captain Kirk in the sequel.
Let the rumors begin.
Since we’re talking about willing suspension of disbelief, allow me to quote my good friend THX-1138 during his take on the subject on another thread:
“Crap my best friend just died and I shot him out into space in a Photon torpedo…Luckily he soft landed on a planet that fortunately is the only one in the universe infused with the technology to bring dead matter back to life. Whew! That was a close one.”
#259. Donn, you missed my point completely. There are all kinds of arguments here that point out how ridiculous Kirk’s promotion is. And it is based on every legitimate historical precedence. The only scenario that works is is the T:3 one, the entire world is decimated to the point that a surviving reluctant teenager becomes the leader of the resistance against the machines.
As for the sets, that is simply one of may problems Trek has in potentially taking the audience OUT OF THE MOMENT. My point is, it doesn’t matter what foreknowledge an audience member has of the original series, it has to do with what the filmmakers have set up as a reasonable expectation within the context of the movie. Given that Abrams has given the ships such incredible attention to detail with CGI, if he cut to a close up that was clearly some plywood walls, the audience might be thrown out of the moment. Not because they can’t believe that there would be plywood walls in the future, but it does not fit with the expectation that he has created in this context.
People mostly love or hat the engineering sets. Regardless, a person with no familiarity with Trek could be taken out of the movie when presented with such vastly different technology than Abrams has otherwise depicted and set the audience’s level of expectation for.
In the end, I personally do not think that mass audiences are sophisticated enough to know the difference anymore. As long as it is loud and flashy, they can pretty much be shell-shocked into accepting anything, particularly as long as it does not violate their own general experiences, which takes a lot considering a general population who has greater familiarity with Beyonce Knowles than Joe Biden.
dalek #272
I agree 100%.
1/ Everything else that Scotty said made complete sense. Why on this matter would he be incoherent?
2/ Isn’t the accepted rule that if it is on screen it is canon? Well I saw Scotty say that Kirk was alive.
3/ Relics is a perfect out for the writers if they want to use Shatner as Kirk in some type of a role next time around.
Mr. Orci,
Please get JJ to include your original ending in the dvd version. The way it is now looks too much like TWOK ending.
It’s also a more fitting way for Shat to pass the torch to Pine.
#274 – Again, all of those things are story that happened within context of the universe initially set-up for suspension of disbelief. More than anything ST:III draws on the human capacity for the belief in cosmic balance, the adage that everything happens for a reason, and life after death and the fantasy of resurrection. Like Christ, Spock sacrificed himself for the crew. The story compels you to want Spock to come back to life because of the goodness of his sacrifice, whether you know anything about ST or not. In fact, you wanna talk about suspension of disbelief, take a good long look at the bible. The fact that most audiences already accept that tome of fiction as truth allows just about ANY story to be told.
What would have caused a problem is if Kirk put his friend’s ashes into a Chock-Full-Of-Nuts can and rolled down a window somewhere on the ship and personally threw him out into space. That would have belied all the conventions established within the context of your suspension of disbelief.
#266—”That said, we’ve already dealt with alternate universes in this movie. We don’t need more.”
And you won’t find any disagreement from me there.
And just to be clear, “Mirror, Mirror” is on my top twenty list of greatest Star Trek episodes. It is only the repeated revisitation of the MU that I have any issue with.
I always saw the entry of Kirk, McCoy, Uhura, and Scotty into the MU as being a convirgence of circumstances which, in all probability, should never have been possible—but was….once.
Unfortunately, it deteriorated into one leap back and forth after another.
What I liked about “In A Mirror, Darkly” was that it actually did not involve any crossover. That is what allowed me to have fun with it.
#278—–Nothing that occurs in ST09 is anymore contrived or ridiculously coincidental than that. In fact, the number of such unbelievable plot elements is far higher in TWOK.
(A) Of all the people who could have beamed down to Ceti Alpha V, one of them had to be a former member of the Enterprise crew
(B) Khan just so happens to escape exile and gain control of the USS Reliant at the same time that the very man he wishes to exact revenge upon (who has been bound to a desk job by the way) happens to board “the only ship in the quadrant” with all of the major characters from TOS (all of whom just happen to be participating in the training mission)
(C) The creators of the Genesis device happen to be the former lover and illegitimate son of Jim Kirk
(D) The Enterprise cannot set the transporter on “maximum dispersion” and beam the armed Genesis device as far away as possible to render it harmless (despite doing that very thing with Nomad in “The Changeling”)?
(E) Scotty carries the severely injured Peter Preston to the bridge instead of sickbay
(F) Khan has aged quite normally on Ceti Alpha V (despite being costumed like a 1980’s rockstar), while his people appear quite youthful—even moreso than in “Space Seed”
(G) And, of course, there is the small matter of an entire planet (Ceti Alpha VI) having exploded and gone unnoticed for 15 years, not to mention Starfleet being so totally unaware that genetic supermen left over from the Eugenics Wars were exiled to its sister planet that it (or Chekov, for that matter) would not have informed Capt. Terrell of that otherwise significant detail. And did no one aboard Reliant notice that there used to be 6 planets in the system….and now only 5?
#249: “Please… no Khans or Gorn captains or Hortas or Klingons. Let’s put this crew light years away from the nearest starbase and have some FRESH new creative adventures in the best tradition of TOS. I’m confident the writers are up to the task.”
How about the Borg?
KIDDING!!! Totally KIDDING!!!!
But I do agree (as I have said in prvious postings), it’s time to get “out there (quoting Kirk from the end of ST TMP), that-away.”
Two comments:
1. Thanks for a great movie J.J. I look forward to the next one. 4&1/2 STARS!
2. Shatner in the movie would have made the film’s ending perfect. A HUGE lost opportunity there.
#277—–Joe, do you really believe that they are going to arrange for Shatner to come in and shoot the scene just for the dvd?
Not going to happen.
#283 … Bill just Twittered me. He’s recording the voiceover now!
Oh, and just as he did during TAS, he recording it from a bathroom stall.
i wish that scene was in the movie
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#275: “In the end, I personally do not think that mass audiences are sophisticated enough to know the difference anymore. As long as it is loud and flashy, they can pretty much be shell-shocked into accepting anything, particularly as long as it does not violate their own general experiences, which takes a lot considering a general population who has greater familiarity with Beyonce Knowles than Joe Biden.”
Who is Joe Biden?
–kidding–
Now that is kind of cynical of you, isn’t it RD? And the really sad thing is, I agree with you.
#280. Again, with the exception of Scotty taking his nephew to the bridge (took me right out of the movie), all of those things are subject to the unknown fantasy of the universe to which we’ve surrendered our disbelief. I’m not questioning the plot twists or coincidence of ST09, that’s just part of the ride you signed up for.
But by your own admission, the promotion of Kirk from ensign to Capt of the flagship rubs your sense of military understanding raw. However, most people have no idea what it takes to make capt. in the military so this breezes by. It rocks your suspension of disbelief because it is out of context from what Abram’s has given you reasonable cause to expect.
I have a problem with engineering as well. Most here don’t. The reason being is that I have been riding in the equivalent of a Ferrari Testorossa, but when I open the hood it’s got the innards of a ‘57 Packard. I would expect the casual audience to notice this too, but clearly they don’t know the difference and or like the contrast.
275. You get no argument from me that, in the context of anything resembling the real world, Kirk’s jump from cadet graduate to captain of the flagship is patently ridiculous. But nobody I saw the film with, or have spoken with in person who has seen the film, batted an eye at it. Nor did I, when I saw it. It’s a bit of a fanwank, sure, the total happy ending where Kirk gets his ship, but as you said in reference to Spocks rebirth, it’s the cosmically expected thing. Kirk is meant to be captain of the Enterprise, and I think audiences can accept that ending because they know that.
We’ll have to disagree on engineering, I guess. Yes, lots of attention to detail was placed in the CGI of the ships, bridge displays, and all of that. What’s more real than an actual industrial location to depict an industrial setting? I was surprised and pleased, going in knowing they had used a brewery, at all the dressing and projected light they used to make that place look like the working power plant of a starship. I felt it flowed pretty well coming from the bridge and sickbay. Again, nobody I’ve talked with has anything to say about it. *shrug*
280 – excellent.
278 – there’s no better explanation for why I couldn’t care less about the crazy scientific/fantasy moments throughout this or any ST movie/show, but it bugs the hell out of me that a cadet is promoted to starship captain.
Similar issue: it kills me that Kirk didn’t raise his shields when Reliant raised theirs, or even locked phasers on the Big E. We hashed this out a few months ago, and I saw no good explanations (although many were offered).
#288—-”But by your own admission, the promotion of Kirk from ensign to Capt of the flagship rubs your sense of military understanding raw. ”
Yep, but I knew it was coming months ago, and it never “took me out of the movie”. It is not as if I suddenly stopped having a good time—-which is the whole point of watching a movie in the first place.
Just as with all of those things I listed about TWOK, the only reason I am even discussing it now is that I enjoyed the experience enough to sit back and think about such things days (even years) later.
#290—IMO, that one is less “contrivance” or “implausibility” than it is simply criminal negligence.
And if you applied the reality of modern military justice to it, such negligence and failure to heed regulations caused the death of alot of people, for which Admiral Kirk should have been held responsible upon his return.
But again, this isn’t “reality”. This is Star Trek.
On a deep space assignment/alien encounter for the plot of the next film: I agree, it would be nice to get a story that is a classic Star Trek science fiction story. Except for one thing: the movies that have tried this didn’t always work that well. TMP, for many, was just a long drawn out regular episode, and a boring one at that. II, III and IV make a nice trilogy that deal with the core “mythology” of Star Trek. V, yawn. VI, a good one, another “mythology” story. Generations was successful as a transition, and yes, another mythology story. Ditto First Contact. Then you get to Insurrection, getting “out there,” and it puts people to sleep. I don’t know what to tell you about Nemesis; it wasn’t a story about encountering something new, yet it wasn’t a self-referential mythology story. It was sort of WOK remade with an established enemy race.
It’s always been my feeling that the good Star Trek movies were a different animal than the series they were launched from. They seem to be better off telling a “meta-story,” if you will, rather than using a script that, in the series, would have been a cracking good episode, but in the film you go, “So what?” In a film, you want something to HAPPEN. Maybe that’s it: in the series, generally, the state of the characters is reset at then end of the story, but in a film we expect something epic to happen that changes everything, and leads us to the next one.
I suspect the best outcome is that we will indeed see something “new,” a new world, a new alien, a new challenge, but against that backdrop we will further see the crew grow into the characters we remember, see the Spock/Uhura thing resolve somehow, and maybe explain why Kirk got the big chair so early for those who are so bothered by it. ;)
Wow –thanks all you militay men for the history factoids. Very fascinating.
“The funny thing is that only more traditional Star Trek fans are really complaining about it. Nitpicking is in our nature.”
Actually, I was sitting in my office Monday listening to a group of the young attorneys discuss the movie. None were fans of Trek beyond some having watched TNG on tv as kids it seems so I was pleased that they’d gone to see the movie in the first place. They did discuss at length the Spock/Uhura thing, where was Nero for 25 years AND how dumb the promotion was. But overall they seemed excited about the film and they were recommending it to those in the group who had not seen it yet. I never said a word….just an amused fly on the wall.
#292—-I think it goes without saying that televised Trek and feature film Trek are two very different things.
People think they want an exploration-type storyline in a Star Trek film, but that’s probably a guaranteed dud at the box-office.
If fans want more exploring strange new worlds, etc.—–then what they really want is a new tv series, not another big budget film.
Star Trek movies are about the characters handling crisis—not exploring the galaxy. We are supposed to assume that is what they do the rest of the time!
The closest we may get is the Enterprise doing that very thing, when it is suddenly interrupted by a crisis situation or threat on an appropriately large scale.
Too bad – this would have been a great way to bookend a great movie.
I think it will be extremely interesting to see what sort of direction the new Trek goes in. When we consider there has been hundreds of filmed hours, hundreds of books, comics, etc. of Trek-ian stories told (some good, some bad, some just plain mediocre), it makes me wonder what’s left, what hasn’t already been done (and, in some cases, done to death)? We can certainly say the new film is Star Trek as we’ve never seen it before, but the actual contents of the film are not anything utterly new (we saw some bits based on past Treks, some bits based on Star Wars, etc.). Is “new” even possible? We can talk about “going where no one has gone before,” but is there anything new under the sun? I agree with Closettrekker, that the movies are, typically, about our characters handling a crisis, and, perhaps, this really is the only thing that can be done on the big screen. Even at that, how does it get to be plausible that our characters are always handling some huge crisis? We know that we cannot simply have “characters in danger “-stories, because our characters will always survive the danger by the end of the film, and we can’t be killing off major players. Perhaps I’m just getting old and unimaginative, but what else is there besides: Kirk saves a world; Kirk fights an enemy; Kirk stops a disaster; Kirk outsmarts a computer; Kirk falls in love and then she dies; Kirk saves a crewmember; and so on…? Yes, it’s the execution of some of these ideas which makes or breaks it, but, still, there’s nothing new under the sun… I mean, whatever wasn’t “new” in the new film didn’t stop me from loving it. Maybe I’m just too tired to think….
291 – where were you a few months ago?! I could’ve used the backup. Most people sided with stretched explanations of this unjustifiable screwup, simply because they liked the movie. Sound familiar? I’m with you: that annoying part of TWOK, and Kirk’s annoyingly unjustifable promotion from Cadet to Captain of the Enterprise in ST09, are fun to debate but don’t take anything away from the movies for me.
Compare that to ST V’s unjustifiable annoyances, though, and it’s a WAY different story!!! A more obvious statement has never been made.
#297—Are you kidding? I’ve been a fixture here for two years!
:)
Regarding Kirk’s promotion from cadet to Captain (a Navy Captain is the equivalent in the Air Force and Army of a Colonel), well it was certainly quite incredible. Obviously, it is something that, in our reality, is totally unrealistic. But again, the Star Trek universe is not representative of our reality, in many ways.
We’ve never faced the possibility of the complete, utter and immediate destruction of our planet, or a sister planet that is home to 6,000,000,000 humanoid inhabitants (Vulcans). Kirk had a HUGE part in saving Earth, since he was in command of the Enterprise, thanks to the field promotion from Pike and Spock’s step down.
Kirk commanded the Enterprise as it destroyed a ship from the 24th century that had destroyed a number of Federation starships and Klingon vessels and a Federation planet. Why couldn’t the rest of the veteran starship captains and Klingons defeat Nero and his ship when Kirk did?
Obviously Kirk had some serious talent. I mean the guy did pass the ultimate Kobayashi Maru test, for real, without reprogramming the conditions!
Also, it’s a possibility that Spock Prime may have conferred with and influenced the Starfleet leadership, informing them of the enormous legend that Kirk had become in the other time line. It seems obvious that Captain Pike had a say in the matter.
Given these variables, would it then be so unrealistic to promote a cadet to the rank of Captain? We’ll never know of course in our reality; heck we don’t even know right now that there ARE in fact other humanoids out there in the universe, much less that we’ll be able to travel using warp speed in 150 years or beam the atoms of living beings (or even inanimate objects) to another location. So again, much of Star Trek’s universe is just not representative of reality.
I suspect, given the above mentioned variables in the Star Trek universe, that the Starfleet leadership did the right thing, and that in those circumstances, would not at all be ridiculous or unbelievable.
@289 I like the engineering idea, but think it just needs a bit more redressing. Please have the ship go through a “refit” and make engineering look a bit more high tech. Chemicals have to be stored somewhere, but incorporate some more stuff to make it look like less of a brewery.
Oh… I would love to see that Shatner scene, as they describe it, someday… wishful thinking.
#262 “Ironically, the average moviegoer actually probably goes into a Star Trek movie with less expectation of ‘plausibility’ than the average Star Trek fan does.”
I agree. My friends had a lot of fun and had nothing to say about the brewery/engine room and the fast promotion of Kirk. And barcode scanners? No one noticed them. It’s called “suspension of disbelief”. In recent years, Trek has taken itself way too seriously and we have lost some of this sense of wonder, to imagine things without needing technical explanations and technobabble. This new Trek is telling us: “use your fantasy and enjoy the movie”.
I saw the movie with my best friend(who is a bigger fan than I), having seen the clip I probably would have lost it. Kirk and Spock’s friendship is one of cinema’s best.
The “old Kirk” scene would only have worked had they used Chris Pine in old age makeup instead of Bill Shatner looking hammy.
These complaints all assume that Kirk is a “normal” person who goes to the academy, gets a commission as an ensign, and then goes up the chain of command in the usual manner. That’s not the angle Abrams has been playing up though. Kirk in this movie is Anakin Skywalker. He’s special. He has a Destiny with a capital “D.”
And although Kirk has neither the educational background nor experience to command the Enterprise, and that aspect of it is definitely unrealistic, it isn’t unusual for qualified candidates for a command position to get an “on the spot” promotion in line with the office they’re going to hold.
As I’ve noted before, most Surgeon Generals go from CIVILIAN to VICE ADMIRAL within a matter of weeks (i.e. they’re appointed by the President and confirmed by the United States Senate). Of course, they’re usually older people with tons of experience and an advanced medical degree rather than some random kid.
You know, I like Shatner, but the movie was great even without him. It was easily the best action-y film I’ve seen since Dark Knight… And you all know that was quite a while ago. xD
And it wasn’t completely laden with the technobabble we tend to both love and hate. (Love Data, but he RAMBLES!!!!)
#305 :: And, actually, what you’re saying about Kirk having a destiny fits like a glove on ‘Trek canon. Can any of us count how many times Jim Kirk saved the world/the galaxy/the whole freakin’ universe?
Wow, the plot possibilities now….. are endless. I liked their idea of the shatner voice over….. pretty darn cool! The movie was good anyway….
I though the movie was really good. Being a fan of TOS and TNG, of course, I have a few nits to pick ( lousy engine room and the spock uhura thing was odd and should have been nurse chapel anyway ), but it didn’t wreck the overall film.
I’m looking forward to the ST12! I’m wondering if the big picture plan is to restore the old timeline by the end of these movies…. ?
Sometimes I think the only reason I come here is to read Closettrekker’s screeds against bad ideas! :)
292. Donn: All of that is assuming that the problem with those movies were the plots alone. I think we both know that isn’t true based on the long and frequent discussions of those films.
294. Closettrekker: Well that is your opinion. And I disagree with it a great deal.
Yes the movies and the series HAVE been diff animals but I see no reason why this HAD to be, it was a choice. And frankly while I enjoyed them I am sick to the gills of future Earth and Vulcan and such.
Movies and TV are not that different despite what some people like to propose. Movie folk most of all to be sure. A story is a story. If a story is compelling and interesting and exciting and fascinating and engaging, it makes NO difference if it is on TV or a movie screen. Or if it is told in 30 minutes, an hour , 2 hours or more.
If we care about the character and the story is well told, then we are going to feel the jeopardy.
I have no problem envisioning Bob, Alex and Damon making stories of ilk of A Taste of Armageddon, The Naked Time, The Doomsday Machine, Operation: Annihilate, The Immunity Syndrome, Arena, The Devil in the Dark, heck even The Trouble with the Tribbles. And to be clear I am not talking about making these particular stories movies. Just using them as examples.
JMN
Here’s my take on Kirk’s promotion. After Kirk was promoted, the camera pulls back and you see Spock Prime looking down at the assembled cadets. In my movie, he uses his future knowledge to impress upon Starflleet that young Jim Kirk is more than capable of handling the Enterprise. You can also throw in the idea that some have thrown around that this alternate universe is trying to correct itself to the original timeline.
And by the way, I saw the movie for the second time on a Tuesday at 7pm in Alexandria, Va and the show was sold out.
Well jj has some time to find a way to have the shat in st 12 since they have green lighted that project. now with the events that have happend in the new movie st 2 trok cant happen in the way we know it cuz if spock dies vulcun is not a planet any more an his mom is dead. every vulcun that has interacted with some 1 in the cannon timeline an did an event might not ahppen now. i would assume spocks brother is still on vulcun an probly now dead so no st 5 ff, tuvok will not exist witch will mess with voyager. the whole prance of vulcun not being in st would mess up spock being in tng. so with this whole new reality will creat a whole new set of events in witch the crew of the enterprise could die when khan trys to take over in tos or when khan attacks in st2. if in the next few movies they find a way to repair the timeline witch must be done spock doing what he did an now just hanging out in the alternate reailty messes with the temperial directive so a temperial agent aka danales from enterprise would have a massive spike of this event messin with time an would have to correct this event. resting the timeline. since spock himself cant correct the timeline since going into the future in a alt time line would only travle into a alt future.
we could have a movie where all the future captains an crews, ds9 ,voyager,tng, an archer, an our new cast for the good of the time line must repair this alt reality time line some how. i loved the movie an im great for the reboot but we cant take 40 years of trek an flush it done the drain. cuz if a new tv serises takes place it would look pretty dumb if they use the cannon timeline when all the new faces just seen this alt timeline it would be way of a mind fuk. as far as the shat they could do anyting from a clone, to spock going back an saving jim from dieing in generations they could easy take that seen where he falls remaster it an before he hits the ground beaming him out cutting years into the future them to talking about that thus shat would be old an would match the age of kirk. either way in general the timeline has gone off the scale with the events of nero so them events must be fixed going down this road could effect tng or kill the human race all togther by the borg in the future.
an we all know spock hes not gunna stay traped in the past an be ok with the timeline where vulcun an his mom are gone he will attempt to save romulas an make it a win win for everyone
so im willing event st 12 will
Sorry, just jumping in here. I haven’t read the previous posts on this topic. But I will add my 2 cents on the Shatner Cameo. I believe he was offered a cameo role initially, in the planning, even before the script was ready. But according to reports he was not happy with a cameo. He wanted a bigger (no pun) role. So why pitch a cameo role to him when the script was more advanced? It would have been a neat addition, but don’t blame the writers, producers, or the director. Blame the ego of Mr Shatner.
Just saw it in IMAX tonight, a Wednesday, at 6:45 pm with my 18 yo and 14 yo daughters. They thought I was nuts for insisting we be at the theater no later than 6pm. Bought food and sat center and middle of theater by 6:15. “Geez Dad, there’s almost no one here!” 6:30 PM “Wow, look at all the people rushing in!” 6:45 no seats anywhere.
14 yo was laughing, giggling, involved with and scared for the characters through out the film in all the right spots. 18 yo loved it too. It’s getting good word of mouth (actually text messaging) amongst their friends.
Neither seemed to remember any of the TV series or the previous movies existed even though they’ve been around and on our TV’s as they’ve grown up. But they would like to see another film with this crew. Good mojo for the box office.
Gary Mitchell wasn’t in this movie because in this alternate universe, Kirk entered the academy years later than he did in the original series. In this movie, Kirk enters the academy at 22 aproximately, and is close to graduation three years later at 25. Without his live father to inspire him, and in fact the death of his father to disuade him from a Starfleet career, it takes Pike to challenge and inspire him to enlist.
Gary Mitchell (IF he even exists in the alternate universe) would have entered the academy much earlier, and so… never met Kirk at the academy. He probably died on the Farragut, never having been requested by Kirk as helmsman of the Enterprise when he took command from Pike in the original series.
I think this is not an altered timeline. Just killing Kirk’s father and destroying the Kelvin would have caused the major alteration of appearances of people and the technology.
This is a parallel universe, IMHO. I agree with the poster who thought that whether Nero appeared or not, this universe would have looked pretty much the same.
The missing female Number One character can also be explained by an alternate universe where she ended up on a different ship through chance, or died before the events of the movie, or never existed at all in this universe.
In reality, her presence would have added nothing to the story for the primary audience (non-Trek fans), and there really was no good way to fit her in as Kirk needed to be First Officer to succeed Spock as acting Captain. She could have died like Voyager’s ill-fated First Officer in the first attack… but, they didn’t do that.
I agree that Kirk going from third year cadet to Captain in one shot is far-fetched. Even the idea that he could do a rigorous and rigidly designed 4-year academy tenure in three years is pretty far-fetched. A military academy isn’t like college where you can accelerate classes and finish early. You can’t accelerate gaining experience like serving on a training vessel, or entering command school. They make you do things at a certain pace to train you in discipline as much as anything else.
Jeez .. why is everyone SO hooked on Shatner appearing in this bloody film. It would have totally RUINED it. And that’s not easy to say cos I’m a big fan of his. But it would have hurt the film. It’s a re-invention after all. Having Nimoy appear is one thing but anymore and it becomes just a big glad-handing hug-a-thon for seeing the old stars.
Bills a great guy and he has played our beloved hero for many years .. but Chris Pine now has the centre seat and the presence of Shatner would have taken away for that.
And all you purist nutcases out there need to just learn how to appreciate entertainment and not get all steamed about ..what shape the nacelles are, and all that stuff. I noticed James Cawleys appearance and he should have been SERIOUSLY honoured to stand there on the bridge.
Trek re-invents itself all the time .. this is just the next version of that. If you’re gonna be purists about this then you’ll never enjoy ANYTHING they put in front of you .. and you’ll be forced to watch the same 79 episodes over and over.
Third paragraph should say:
I think this is not an altered timeline. Just killing Kirk’s father and destroying the Kelvin would NOT have caused the major alteration of appearances of people and the technology.
the shat scene F’en vantastic and would have worked and people would have loved it.
what a shame it was not done. maybe for the dvd release or a directors cut.
r.e. Kirk
What happened was a field comission. It happens in real militaries and especially during time of conflict.
Pike granted Kirk a field commission when he made him first officer. All that happened at the end was he was bumped up 1 more rank to Captain.
Granted it would have been nice to have Pike say some line to the effect of “on my authority I have granted James Kirk the field rank of Lt. Cmdr on stardate XYZ and assign him as First Officer” into the ship’s log. But nonetheless that is what happened.
Per the proposed Shatner scene, I would have liked if they did it, but in terms of canon, that is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read about! Kirk disappeared a year or so after the Enterprise-A is decommissioned, and Spock went to Romulus, and remained there for 80 years?
I must say I’m not a hater. I think J.J. and his writers made a good movie. But they did kill off all of Star Trek that had come before. They could have left Star Trek for what it was and just write their own retooling of Star Trek, and not wiping out everything that had come before, now it will never happen, what had happened. In the timeline everything has been erased, kaput! Nobody will every be what they were going to be, they might never be. From the 60’s TV series to the Next Generation, it is all is gone. Why’d they have to erase all of the history of Star Trek connecting this film with everything that had come before only to erase it, didn’t they realize the emotional implication that would have on it’s fan base. From an emotional level having Nimoy in the film, not only has Spock lost everything that had come before, I felt a loss too.
319 – many earlier posts here, by myself and others, amply demonstrate that there is no precedent for a “field commission” anywhere near the magnitude of a cadet being promoted 7 grades AND being given command of the largest, most advanced ship in the fleet. See above posts about Custer, for example. Nothing analagous to the movie has ever happened in real life, and nothing in Trek lore has come close, either. Indeed, Trek has been remarkably consistent with actual naval traditions and organizational practices. It’s one of the things that makes the show so cool.
299, 305 – you, and many others, justify the promotion as a deserved reward. That is to say, because of Kirk’s success and heroism in a crisis of this planetary magnitude, he deserves to be rewarded with a 7-fold promotion and top-level command assignment. The problem is that commands and promotions like this do not get handed out simply as rewards. Saving a planet and acting heroically in one crisis situation, etc. does not automatically infuse you with the experience and knowledge necessary to command the fleet’s flagship, ahead of the corps of veteran officers that have served in the fleet for years. Command of any capital ship (and, I’d say, especially a starship) entails more than just raw gifts – sure, you need those, and Kirk has them – you need experience, too. Kirk had none. The right way to reward his heroism and recognize his gifts is to give him a substantially inflated promotion and a command of a ship of some sort – doing these things would propel him far ahead of his peers, into a position no cadet could ever dream of. Then, after he gains some experience commanding others and working within the fleet, THEN you promote him (again, well ahead of everyone else) to a coveted command like the Enterprise. Unfortunately, this wasn’t Hollywood enough. It’s Trek, though.
Starfleet is not some ragtag organization of bumbling morons who put on pajamas and fly off in ships – it’s an elite organization of professional officers. Many officers died due to Nero, sure, but many did not (think of the fleet that Quinto Spock wanted to rendezvous with, and all the first and second officers on board who would be next in line for a starship command). What professional political/military organization would trust a major command to a completely inexperienced kid, no matter how gifted or heroic that kid is???? They’s nurture him as a superstar and fast-track him, but wouldn’t just chuck him in the bosses chair and say, “don’t worry, he’ll learn as he goes.”
311 – yours is the only explanation that can possibly make the promotion make some sense. The movie didn’t lead us to believe that this happened, though, and even if it did, Kirk still didn’t have the experience needed to take on a command like this at that point. Remember, Nimoy Spock’s opinion that Kirk could “handle the Enterprise” would be based on his knowledge of Kirk from the time he took command in the prime universe – AFTER he’d been in the fleet for 8 years or so, rising through the ranks (rising quickly, but rising through the ranks nonetheless). Without ever serving in the fleet, he simply could NOT be qualified for this kind of command. Again, raw talent isn’t enough.
305 – I lumped you in with 299 by mistake. Sorry about that. You make good points, but I’d say that your rationale justifies what I said in my last post (#322): that Kirk should’ve gotten a big promotion and a mid-sized command, but not a promotion to Captain (O-6) and command of the fleet’s newest, biggest, and most advanced starship. He needs fleet experience before being handed that kind of responsibility.
#322 – well said!
I would have been perfectly happy and it would not have hurt the film at all if these things happened:
1) We were told the Enterprise was unfinished due to the rush to get it into service, which accounts for the appearance of Engineering (and this brand new space was spotless, rather than dingy like they were burning coal) and;
2) After the celebration where Kirk is praised as a hero and Pike is in a wheel chair, cut to the Spock/Nimoy story without promoting anybody, then put up a card that says “3 years Later” and have Pike turning the Enterprise over to Kirk on the ship. Same ending, less American Idol winner effect.
It feels like a lot of people are making excuses for this film. Was it entertaining: yes. Was it a big summer blockbuster with all the bells and whistles: yes. Was it Star Trek?
No.
You can twist it around in your head all you want, but this just wasn’t Star Trek at it’s core. It walked like a duck and had a ducks feathers, but when it opened it’s mouth, it barked like a dog.
And I am no stranger to justifying; I am a fan of both Enterprise and Nemesis!
There is potential for this new Franken-Trek to overcome it’s own sense of self importance and actually become Trek, but that’s only if Paramounts insatiable and self destructive greed don’t get in the way.
And we all know how that story has ended before.
Actually there are lots of examples of rapid rising through the ranks. Nelson, Robert E Lee (before Civil War) , Ariel Sharon, Norman Cota and so on.
What happened was (as posted earlier) that Pike granted Kirk a field commission when he made him First Officer, since as far as we know Starfleet First Officers are at least Lt Commanders. So the base point is Lt Cmdr, not cadet.
The bump to Captain happened because:
1) Kirk demonstrated his command ability when he was in command after Spock relieved himself (not literally).
2) Pike was promoted to Admiral (probably already in the works before) and so Enterprise needed a new Captain.
3) Pike no doubt personally recommended Kirk for the post. And as an Admiral he had the necessary authority (remember Riker being promoted to Captain in the field when Picard was assimilated?).
4) Spock after attacking Kirk was probably at that point considered not yet Captain material.
But really, this stuff is nitpicking in a major way. Whether the canonistas or hyper purists like it or not, the movie is excellent and did a great job of getting Trek reset back to its basic elements and making it viable again.
Bob Orci -
Are you out there?
Give us a sign.
At the beginnig Shatner was Kirk, unfortunatly by the end Kirk is Shatner – that more than anything destoys the suspension of disbelief and is why sadly the film was better without the Shat.
How about that Nimoy Spock had some template thing like you see in Voyager where they read stuff of it and in it is the original history, a database of everything like normal and Nimoy Spock shows young Kirk this is the future you could of had.
Enter clips from the other films and that way you see Shatner Kirk but as he was not what he is now.
RE: Gary Mitchell – maybe he wasn’t even BORN… and Finnegan turned out to be the ’stack of books with legs’ instead of Kirk…
:-)
326 – there are too many reasons why your examples are not analagous to Kirk’s promotion, not the least of which are the completely incomparable circumstances of each’s military at the time versus starfleet (or the modern US military, which is much more akin to starfleet than the civil war army or the new Israeli fledgling army after statehood). You once again use the “deserving” standard over the “qualified” standard to justify the promotion, which I think is wrong. However, you rightly say that the movie was great and that’s really all that matters. I couldn’t agree more. The nitpicking is what we Trek people do, because we like it for some reason. Please don’t mistake it for negative criticism of the movie as a whole. Believe me, I went nuts on TWOK when Kirk didn’t raise his shields during Khan’s approach (even after the Reliant raised theirs and locked phasers on the Enterprise) – but, of course, I LOVED TWOK.
#316 ” If you’re gonna be purists about this then you’ll never enjoy ANYTHING they put in front of you .. and you’ll be forced to watch the same 79 episodes over and over.”
…now THAT kind of punishment I can take! lol
(but I did love the movie)
#322 — Exactly!
The Shatner scene would have both been cheesy and worked tremendously. I wish I hadn’t clicked on that clip; now I’m really annoyed!
#319—-”What happened was a field comission. It happens in real militaries and especially during time of conflict. ”
You’ve seen too many movies. Nothing akin to what happened in ST09 with the promotion scene occurs in modern Western militaries.
“Battlefield promotions” rarely occur, and when they do, they are always temporary, and usually only task specific. In other words, Kirk’s “battlefield promotion” would expire when the crisis had ended—–just like that of George Custer in the 19th Century (as has already been discussed above).
Moreover, no one goes from a “cadet” (and a third year one at that) to an O-6. Period. One would have to look to the American Civil War for the most recent example of such a thing—-and once again—-such outrageous “field promotions” were nullified at the war’s end.
The nearest historical precedent to what you see here is in the early 20th Century (WWI era), in which a USMC Sgt. was actually given a “field commission” to 1stLt. The difference is that this would be the quivalent (in Starfleet, whose rank structure is akin to Western navies) of a CPO being given a commission to the rank of Lt, jg.—not a cadet going to the rank of Captain!
Former Sgt. Dan Daly would finish his Marine Corps career (many years later) as a Major. And Dan Daly is one of the most highly decorated men in American history.
“Pike granted Kirk a field commission when he made him first officer. All that happened at the end was he was bumped up 1 more rank to Captain. ”
First Officer is a position aboard ship—- not a “rank”. Technically, one has nothing to do with the other. Likewise, many people confuse the position/title of “Captain” with the rank. Again—-two different things (think JFK aboard the PT-109).
Pike never awards any “field commission” (nor does he have the authority to do so, if Starfleet regulations are comparable to those of our militaries, as that would require the presence of a flag officer—-which Pike is not until the end of the film). However, as Captain, Pike does have the luxury of appointing whomever he chooses to fill the position of “First Officer”. That is his discretion, but (make no mistake) it has nothing to do with actual “rank”.
Look—-this isn’t reality. This is Star Trek. But the notion that something like that has any basis in what would occur in “real militaries” (at least the Western militaries upon which Starfleet’s structure and tradition is based) is simply incorrect.
Your position on the matter is much better off with the contention that Starfleet has its own rules, which are only “loosely” based upon the traditions of “real militaries”. Trying to relate this scenario to something which occurs in modern times only pokes more holes in it.
#324—”After the celebration where Kirk is praised as a hero and Pike is in a wheel chair, cut to the Spock/Nimoy story without promoting anybody, then put up a card that says “3 years Later” and have Pike turning the Enterprise over to Kirk on the ship.”
I would say “5 or 6 years later” (and place Kirk’s promotion to Captain in the year 2264), but otherwise, I agree completely.
The scene would have had no loss of impact, and yet come off far more believable.
As it stands, it is just as much “fantasy” as the notion that Admiral Kirk would not have been court-martialed for failing to heed regulations in his initial encounter with USS Reliant (an act of gross negligence which resulted in loss of life aboard the Enterprise) in TWOK.
Just as that gaffe could have been avoided if Saavik had not quoted a regulation on the bridge, this one could have been avoided if the scene had been advanced a few years forward in time.
Just as there is not a precise equivalent in military to promoting someone from Ensign or LtJG to Captain in one big jump, so there is no precedent in someone saving EVERYTHING. I mean he saved Earth and all the other planets in the Federation from annihilation!
I don’t think we can point to one Ensign in US Navy who has personally prevented the genocide of every American and every state in the Union.
And while a “flagship”, it is one ship out of many. Maybe they figure they can risk having a loose cannon like young Kirk commanding a ship, if he may end up saving the Federation again in the future.
Even though “captain” I suspect he would be on a fairly short leash and receive a lot of “guidance” from more experienced people. (Sort of like freshly-minted 2ndLt in Vietnam getting guidance from the senior sergeant) Everybody answers to admirals.
I would suspect (and I would be a litlte disappointed in Abrams otherwise) that Kirk won’t be given a bonified 5-year exploratory mission out on the “frontier” UNTIL he is more seasoned to operate on his own like Kirk in the original TOS.
#337—”I would suspect… that Kirk won’t be given a bonified 5-year exploratory mission out on the “frontier” UNTIL he is more seasoned to operate on his own like Kirk in the original TOS.”
That kind of thinking doesn’t make sense to me. If they didn’t think he was seasoned enough to operate on his own, then why promote him to Captain and give him the Enterprise?
Either they have adequate faith in him—-or they don’t.
If they had simply placed the promotion scene a few years later, we could assume that he has proven that he can do more than lead the charge to defeat a villain. But they didn’t….and so we cannot.
Any way you slice it, Starfleet (presumably upon Pike’s insistence) is putting *alot* of blind faith in the young Kirk. At least he has the help of a much more seasoned first officer in Spock (who had earned the rank of Commander even prior to the crisis). He would certainly need it, since the day-to-day operations of running a starship would no doubt require more than just raw potential, but the type of ability that only experience can nurture.
This movie was as entertaining to me as any Star Trek film has ever been, and perhaps moreso. But there is no getting around the fact that, for me, the promotion scene joins the long list of WTF moments in Star Trek movie history.
And what’s done is done…
Bring on the sequel!
@336 This is all very interesting. I agree that it’s better to just assume Starfleet has its own rules that we don’t understand. (I’ve never grasped why it was necessary for Kirk to accept a reduction in rank to Captain (noun) on a temporary basis for him to Captain (verb) Enterprise during the V’ger crisis, for example.)
As I said, one explanation may be that you can graduate from Starfleet Academy at a variety of ranks, like it’s a grade (in the A+ or C – sense) which might explain how Uhura and Saavik and Valeris (IIRC) seem to be cadets and Lieutenants simultaneously.
At the end of the day though you’re 100% right, it’s fiction and analogies will only get us so far.. : )
#317—-”Just killing Kirk’s father and destroying the Kelvin would NOT have caused the major alteration of appearances of people and the technology.”
First of all, the “appearances of people”?
Are you serious? What would you expect them to do—-clone the DNA of the original cast in order to create suitable-looking actors for this film?
As for the technology, consider this:
1) It isn’t just the “destruction of the Kelvin”, but the telemetry recorded from the Narada and taken aboard the shuttles, as well as the evidence left over from the encounter that Starfleet would recover in its investigation of the attack (upon which Pike apparently wrote a discertation). Even just a “hull fragment” left over as a result of the Kelvin’s collision with the Narada might provide new inspiration for the advancement of technology that would otherwise have not been there in the previous timeline.
2) The appearance of such a new and mysterious threat would alter Starfleet’s priorities over the next couple of decades—-”necessity is the mother of invention”. Think about Japan’s attack upon Pearl Harbor, and how it compelled American society into action and invention.
Or, on a larger scale, think of the impact that the Second World War had in general upon the World’s technological advancement—-atomic energy, jet aircraft, ballistic missiles, etc. In just 12 years after the end of WWII, the Soviets had launched a satellite into space!
If you had told anyone in the 1930’s that this would actually happen in 1957, you would have been laughed right out of the room!
It would be far more unbelievable to suggest that significant advances in technology would *not* have occurred in the 22 year period between the attack upon the Kelvin and the first time we see the Enterprise, relative to what occurred in the previous timeline.
325. Michael Schinke wrote: “It feels like a lot of people are making excuses for this film.”
THIS IS THE FIRST STATEMENT I AM 100% IN AGREEMENT WITH.
I feel like I have found a kindred spirit (I too thought Nemisis wasn’t that bad and at there are a number of Enterprise episodes I can sit through, mainly from the last season).
I often question if Trekmovie is a “real” Trek fan site, or if the majority of posters are plants by Viacom. At times it seems more like a marketing tool for Abrams than a real forum. So many threads seem bent on convincing those with dissenting opinions that they are wrong and how utterly fantastic Trek 09 is.
The only non-conspiracy explanation I can think of is that the effectiveness of the new movie was so completely unexpected and the dearth of Trek over the last few years so debilitating that fans are unable to think straight! Perhaps once the sheen dulls a bit of the newness of Abrams entry, fans can be a bit more objective about it. For now, let’s just hope nobody offers this group tainted Kool-aide. LOL
#341—-”I often question if Trekmovie is a “real” Trek fan site, or if the majority of posters are plants by Viacom.”
Then you’re a nutjob.
I didn’t understand what was it with the whole black hole thing?
How could have spock and the other ship gone through without being destroyed? Wouldnt the gravity in a black hole crush them? And how can you time travel using a black hole anyway?
Let’s say you can, Vulcan should have time traveled somewhere aswell, instead of being destroyed. What don’t i get? Why does the same have two different outcomes?
the movie would be better, if it made more sense.
341. “…So many threads seem bent on convincing those with dissenting opinions that they are wrong and how utterly fantastic Trek 09 is.”
I disagree completely.
First, I don’t think anyone who liked the movie is making any kind of excuses for the film or for liking it. Many, many people like the movie, period, as the numbers are indicating.
Second, there is nothing wrong with someone disliking the film, and I don’t see anyone trying to convince them to like it. There is a big difference between someone saying, “I didn’t like the film,” and “This film is wrong, horrible, terrible, etc.” Opinion is personal, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Making a blanket statement as if that statement is the only correct statement is rather inflated, and, of course, some people (out of enthusiasm) will say things like, “This is the best Star Trek film ever.” Such a statement is also an opinion. To say, “I loved this movie,” is an opinion, but it is not a blanket statement intended to speak for all of Trek-dom. It is a statement that assumes responsibility for making it.
It is, however, unfortunate that everyone has to watch their words carefully, and be very precise in their wording so as not to offend, disturb, disrupt, or annoy anyone else… but that’s just the kind of world we live in. We really should learn to govern our passions… they will be our undoing…
#341—”I often question if Trekmovie is a “real” Trek fan site, or if the majority of posters are plants by Viacom. At times it seems more like a marketing tool for Abrams than a real forum…Perhaps once the sheen dulls a bit of the newness of Abrams entry, fans can be a bit more objective about it. For now, let’s just hope nobody offers this group tainted Kool-aide.”
It is really sad that you are so uncomfortable with being of a minority opinion that you cannot accept a differing view without suggesting that opinion comes from a bunch of “plants by viacom”. Do you have any idea how absurd that is?
I suppose that the 96% of the 247 reviews counted at RT are on the payroll as well?
I’m sorry, but that is just dumb—-and you surrender whatever credibility might have otherwise existed in your posts with such nonsense.
The overwhelming majority of opinions about this film from readers here is as objective as could be expected from readers who are already Trek fans. Almost every fan review contains some criticism. The film is not perfect, but that doesn’t preclude it from being well-liked. If that were the case, no one would like *any* Star Trek film ever released.
Personally, of the 11 films released since 1979—-I only really like 5 of them enough to watch them again and again, and I would only consider 4 of them to be particular favorites of mine. But I could pick apart every one of them!
Seriously, if you’re too good for “this group”—-then why are you here? You sure spend alot of time on a site for which you seem to have little respect toward both those who operate it and those who read it/comment on a regular basis.
“I too thought Nemisis wasn’t that bad…”
And yet you have the audacity to belittle someone who thinks ST09 is fantastic?
Lol.
Ah, once again, Closet unleashes the Red Matter on some poor individual…
:-)
#346—-That stuff is potent!
to those who can’t stand those of us who enjoy the film, or who have differing opinions, please: never use the phrase “drink the kool-aid”, ever again.
it is lame, unimaginative, pointless, and in fact quantum ignorance to compare an event that was a horrific example of humanity at it’s worst to other fans OPINIONS. a great many of you who use the phrase have only the vaguest idea what it’s original reference was anyway.
it is NOT an apt metaphor.
and if you can’t refrain yourself from that level of stupidity, then by all means; find the original jonestown recipe and have your fill.
idiots.
325 “You can twist it around in your head all you want, but this just wasn’t Star Trek at it’s core. ”
I agree.
341. “I often question if Trekmovie is a “real” Trek fan site, or if the majority of posters are plants by Viacom. At times it seems more like a marketing tool for Abrams than a real forum. So many threads seem bent on convincing those with dissenting opinions that they are wrong and how utterly fantastic Trek 09 is.”
I am totally confused too. I see the movie for what it is and just can’t believe it’s getting the glowing reviews or that it’s accepted by Trek fans. However, It’s probably a reach to suspect there’s a real conspiracy. You know I’ve always been a moderate Trek fan (now labeled a purist I’m sure) and there were always a group of fringe Trekkies that I just could not understand. Maybe the fans that love this film are a new form of Trekkies that I still don’t get. Like the crowd that pre-orders the toys for a film they don’t even know if they will like. The crowd that stayed excited for this film despite the information that was coming in.
My only idea about why so many Trek fans love this film is that they are so excited to have something called “Star Trek” in the mainstream and that it validates them somehow. They don’t care how far the film deviates from what we know or how many plot holes it has. There was more than an undercurrent or viral aspect to the marketing of this film which attempted to to define it as the “cool” Trek. The “fresh” Trek. Everyone eager to be accepted by the mainstream then cam out of woodworks to take credit for their past love of Trek and line up for the new toys. They appear blind to how far they go to defend it.
Closettrekker: you are always here, your posts are frequent and usually long-winded. You are always the first to jump on anyone who disagrees with you. Do you have a job?
#345, Closet, please refrain from personal attacks. I’m a “nutjob”? Seriously?
Why so defensive? I never said that the people on this site were plants, I merely mused for my own amusement. Yet you seem to have somehow taken it personally. Indeed, thou protest too much. Perhaps I was on to something? LOL
PLEASE.
Again, you are on the verge of liable to suggest that I have belittled ANYONE who likes the movie. However, without creating a pie chart to specify the exact percentages, I think I am well within reason to observe that anyone with a dissenting option this site seems to be meet with a coercive effort to correct that person’s perspective (and moreover the perspective of any potential reader who may have doubts about the film, so much so it reads like a marketing effort). But as I further stated in the very same post, that is conspiratorial thinking.
Inferring I was serious suggests that someone who questions their sanity is most likely insane, when in fact the opposite is almost always true. Honestly, it is reactions like yours that inspire some of the media stories over the ill-humored Trekkies. And frankly I find the personal attacks BENEATH you, from the posts I have read, particularly since I have NEVER LAUNCHED a PERSONAL attack against anyone on this board.
Finally, #348, I never wrote “drink the Kool-aide”. FYI, while I agree few would remember the Jim Jones Guyana Cult incident, the reference I use is probably even lesser know, even to yourself from the 1960’s novel by Tom Wolfe: The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test. So once again I implore EVERYONE on this forum to to take a deep breath before responding and not assume the worst about your fellow posters. And in either event, PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PERSONAL ATTACKS.
The Shatner scene would have worked perfectly. I cannot believe they came up with something so brilliant and then dropped it. It was absolutely perfect.
There is no “real” Star Trek. It’s all made up. Though I saw what I believed were flaws, I enjoyed this movie immensely and look forward to the further adventures of these make-believe characters as they cruise through a fictitious universe aboard their imaginary starship.
It was fun!
To those that didn’t like it, I’m sorry you didn’t get the movie you wanted. It did the job for me: I was entertained.
Then I moved on.
#349—-”Closettrekker: you are always here, your posts are frequent and usually long-winded. You are always the first to jump on anyone who disagrees with you. Do you have a job?”
Lol.
First of all, I own a business, and a successful one at that. And I think you overestimate the amount of time and energy it takes to read a little bit and construct a post.
Second, I do not “jump on anyone who disagrees” with me. I think that post #341 is insulting, as it suggests that anyone who is not of the minority opinion on this film is tainted in some way (or even on the payroll of those who funded the project).
Generally speaking, I do not “attack” those with opposing viewpoints. I may “challenge” their conclusions, but that isn’t the same thing…and I think you know that.
#350—”Why so defensive? I never said that the people on this site were plants, I merely mused for my own amusement. Yet you seem to have somehow taken it personally. ”
Please. This isn’t the first time you’ve suggested this. You’ve made the same absurd suggestion on many occasions….not just in post#341 on this thread.
“… you are on the verge of liable to suggest that I have belittled ANYONE who likes the movie. ”
Uh… no. That is precisely what you did— by suggesting that those of us (and by extension, the overwhelming majority of critics) who liked the movie are somehow “unable to think straight”, as if the notion that the film is simply entertaining to most people (including many established Trek fans) couldn’t possibly be true.
“since I have NEVER LAUNCHED a PERSONAL attack against anyone on this board.”
Questioning the integrity of a person (or even a broad group of people) is absoultely a personal attack. You do it all the time, liberally accusing people of lies and dishonest agendas, etc.
As for the use of the word “nutjob”, I stand by that as it was applied.
If you honestly questioned ” if Trekmovie is a ‘real’ Trek fan site, or if the majority of posters are plants by Viacom”— then yes— I think that you would be a “nutjob”, and that you might as well be wearing a tin-foil hat.
But if you really wish for people to suppose that you do not seriously question that, then why suggest it repeatedly?
#353 – Closet, I can only agree to disagree with you.
A PERSONAL attack is just that. One that specifically insults an individual, something I have never done.
Closettrekker wrote: “I think that post #341 is insulting, as it suggests that anyone who is not of the minority opinion on this film is tainted in some way (or even on the payroll of those who funded the project).”
My post suggests nothing. You INFERRED everything, including evidently my conviction that this “conspiracy” is afoot. Pointing out repeatedly that a a behavior is consistent with such a thing, is far from accusing anyone of being complicit in such a conspiracy. Having a sense of humor helps. Further, even if I REALLY believe what you suggest above, how is that any different than the attacks on people who are of the dissenting opinion?
When I say “dissenting” opinion, I’m not talking merely about general love or dislike of the movie. To be clear, I am writing about specific details which may affect whether someone likes or dislikes the film. You are the one who assumes I am talking about general feelings. Many more of the posts are devoted to rationalizing any detail, no matter how insignificant, as being perfectly acceptable to any rational thinking person – though it usually goes like this: COMMENT, “I didn’t like the movie because Kirk got promoted from Ensign to Captain”; RESPONSE, “You’re an idiot. Here are all the reasons why Kirk could realistically be promoted…”. OR, “Any of your complaints are no worse than what any other lower-grossing movie did so get over it, this movie was great and everybody in the world who’s seen it agrees with me, any moron can see that by just looking at the reviews and box-office numbers”. And so it goes …
Further, there is no qualifier on my part about whether Trek fans, and not TrekMovie in particular, are good or bad for for their enthusiasm. Nor is there anywhere implied by my statement that I am better than anyone. I may think I am more objective, but then that is my opinion, it doesn’t make me any better than anyone else, just different. Am I a Trek fan? Sure. Am I overly enthusiastic about this film? No. Is that good or bad? It simply is. To suggest otherwise is no different than saying I am unpatriotic for voting against a particular candidate for President. I may prefer the values of one over the other, but either way I am still an American and I can voice my opinion about other Americans without disparaging them or suggesting superiority, but simply expressing my differences. As for my words, I am uncharacteristically cautious on this board. What I said was “perhaps” the Trek fans can see more objectively, given the supposition (which was not even a statement of fact), not that they must or that even I am more objectively perceptive. I may ultimately be proven the subjective viewpoint. EIther way, to offer anyone so “subjectively” influenced by such circumstances an “acid test” as to enhance their relative subjectivity would only make the results of my supposition much worse and further fuel more overly-enthusiastic converts. Ultimately, suggesting that pro-Trek fans are attacking dissenters with the zeal of one who is employed by Paramount, is NOT the same thing as saying they are employed by Paramount. AND FOR THE RECORD, I NEVER SAID ANYONE WAS “TAINTED”. You said that.
But you feel free to call me names directly if it makes you feel better. That tactic always works so well to get one’s point of view across.
#355—-Technically, I only called soemone who questions “if Trekmovie is a “real” Trek fan site, or if the majority of posters are plants by Viacom” a nutjob.
You claim that you don’t actually or literally question that—-so what’s the problem?
“AND FOR THE RECORD, I NEVER SAID ANYONE WAS “TAINTED”. ”
Agreed. You suggested that they lacked objectivity.
“Further, there is no qualifier on my part about whether Trek fans, and not TrekMovie in particular, are good or bad for for their enthusiasm.”
You mean like suggesting that they are less objective due to such enthusiasm?
“Nor is there anywhere implied by my statement that I am better than anyone. ”
Only more objective….
I forgot to address one of your more salient points:
“You do it all the time, liberally accusing people of lies and dishonest agendas, etc.”
First, this is grossly overstated and mostly stems from your recent perception that my musing about the conspiratorial zeal with which dissenters are quashed, which you infer as an outright accusation. Second, the only person I have even remotely accused of lying and dishonest agendas is Abrams and co. I recall the thread you are referring to, which stemmed from my disillusionment about being mislead about how different this film was going to be from what they actually delivered. This feeling was further heightened when it was publicly stated by Abrams that ABC asked him not to reveal too much Sci-Fi too early in LOST (and hats off to Abrams for putting the entire burden on ABC). This resulted in a general deception which JJ justified as necessary to keep the secret. Some outright lies were told to protect that secret. There’s no debate about that, whether JJ told them directly or not, producers for the show did. Is it then mere coincidence that a similar deception appeared to surround the reveal of just how extensive the changes were in this movie?
In any event, it boils down to a point-of-view. It is no secret that popular culture tends to see advertising and marketing and indeed sales in general as, people who attempt to make you buy things you don’t need. There are truth in advertising laws for a reason, because in a free market economy some businesses will stretch the truth if it helps increase profits. Drug companies in particular regularly engage in campaigns of deception parading happy actors who suffer from a named affliction who are now leading happy healthy lives thanks to the miracles of a some brand new trademarked and patented medication, which has a list of detrimental side-effects so long they now run in print so fine on one can possibly read it during the entire length of the commercial. Now is this a lie? Depends on your definition. If you are the marketing or advertising executive, you will probably say no and justify it by any means necessary (the benefits outweigh the negatives, it’s the public’s responsibility to read the fully disclosed side-effects, etc,). Nevertheless, it is definitely deception and to many, there is little difference from lying. Is telling a little white lie to protect the surprises in and therefore the viability of your story different from telling a little white lie to keep the government’s secret that they are waterboarding detainees in GITMO? Sure it is. Is it still a lie? Yes.
And at the end of the day, I am entitled to my opinion. I call ‘em as I see ‘em and the way I was raised says, if you withhold details it’s the same as lying, if you mislead someone to think something else it’s the same as lying. Any lawyer will tell you that on the witness stand. There’s a reason why the phrase “no comment” exists. It allows someone from saying anything. That’s a much better way to address a fans questions that get too close to your surprises.
Now I know full well you and I don’t see this the same way at all, which is why I can only agree to disagree with you. Then again I don’t work within a business model which solely exists to promote only the positive attributes of a client or product and conceal the negatives. I can only hope that people in such positions reject clients who have too many secrets so as to resort to misleading tactics.
#357—”Then again I don’t work within a business model which solely exists to promote only the positive attributes of a client or product and conceal the negatives.”
Nor do I.
Nor do I feel that anything remotely close to lying was done in the promotion of this film.
And you’re right that you and I have different points of view.
I don’t believe that Lindelof was “lying” a few years ago about LOST, especially given that he admittedly had no idea as to what direction in which he and Carlton Cuse were going to take the show back then. I see it as simply having a change of heart since that time. In my mind, that doesn’t make him a liar—-it just means he changed his mind. I think he would only have been lying if he knew he was going to do it all along.
And Abrams has had no real involvement with LOST since the show’s first season, just as he had no significant involvement with ALIAS after the first two seasons.
P.S. — But, my previous suggestion presumes the script to have been anywhere near in danger of being bogged down by a few minutes of plot development.
It is my opinion that this movie was made to pander to people with ADD.
For gods sake, it won’t kill you to have a few minutes of thought-provoking drama. And, it’ll make the action sequences that much more impactful and tense. And, you’ll care more about the outcome of them.
It’s called “dynamics,” and they used to employ it in movies about 20 years ago.
359:
Wow I thought I was the only one…This was a great film but it would have been even better if the action could have slowed down just a bit from time to time throughout the film. Cinema becomes art when a director can sucessfully build and relese tension without resulting to action throughout the picture.
@ 68
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4383/timetravel.png
There has been a lot of Time-Travel in the Star Trek Universe.
Each time travel episode could cause a new divergence from the Time-line, just as the events of First Contact created the “ENT” era, this time travel incursion created the new universe in which we see in the movie, effectively a new Universe. (Funny, you don’t see fans bitching about seeing the “original” time-line from pre-First Contact.)
This could be taken further, perhaps the meddling of the NCC-1701 from TOS “Tomorrow is Yesterday” created a universe in which TAS didn’t happen. Perhaps meddling in “The City on the Edge of Forever” explains why there is no “James R. Kirk”
In my picture I assigned the Prime Star Trek universe a random number mostly because episodes involving Parallel Universes show that there are millions of other Universes and it’d be highly unlikely given chance that we’re observing “Universe 1″ (even so, the amount of meddling in time could create a thousand different universes.)
The other thing I’d like to touch upon is the fact that even in this radically different Universe the crew appears very much in the places they are in from the original time-line, perhaps the Universe has a self-repairing principle. It’s self-consistent to the best of its ability (after all, a universe with Paradoxes is unlikely to survive so a self-repairing universe would last longer, therefore assuming Universal evolution the only universe in existence now are those that can somehow self-repair or mend themselves in a way to wrap most things up so as to survive.)
Cheers,
Allynd.
I didn’t read all the responses so I’m not sure if this has been stated or not, but that scene described for Shatner’s cameo as Kirk wouldn’t have made any sense. It sounded cool when I was listening to it, but when you think about it, canon wise it makes no sense. They say that Kirk gave this birthday disc to Spock when he was leaving for Romulus, saying that this is the last time I’ll be able to wish you happy birthday, but Kirk was believed to have died in 2293 (only turning up briefly to die again in 2371, several years after Spock left for Romulus in 2368). So…Kirk wouldn’t have been around to give Spock that disc. So, while I would have loved to have seen Shatner – I’m really glad they didn’t include this scene.
I’d have preferred a flashforward at the end showing that Kirk is still alive in this alterante timeline, but I suppose that would have taken away any worry that Kirk might die in the sequels. Oh well.
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None of this stuff with can’t have Shatner because canon says he is dead makes no sense. By same logic you couldn’t have the movie Star Trek or any movie one about Abraham Lincoln. All those gujys are dead (ST caharacters are dead beacsue we have already seen STNG)/ You can have those movies because the time setting is during their lives. The same could have been for old Kirk/Shatner- some scene before his jumped encounter in Generations (or well his other timeline) but after the original 5 year mission.
Rnk|Yr—Rnk|Adj. B.O.|Adj. Bdgt.|Title
001 2003 01 $1,332.5 $109.8 The Lord of the Rings: The Return
N/A 1979 04 $400.000 $102.5 Star Trek: The Motion Picture
111 2000 09 $394.700 $91.4 X-Men
123 2009 3 $363.000 $150.0 Star Trek
126 2009 04 $356.900 $150.0 X-Men Origins: Wolverine
N/A 1986 05 $257.400 $52.0 Star Trek: The Voyage Home