Abrams: Jack Black NOT In Talks For Harry Mudd For Star Trek Sequel June 9, 2009
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Star Trek sequel (2012) , trackback
The Star Trek movie is still in theaters, but it appears that the casting rumor mill for the sequel is just starting to gear up. The latest seems to be Jack Black as Harry Mudd with word that he was having meetings with the Abrams team. JJ Abrams addressed this rumor directly by telling AICN that he had indeed met with Black, but not for Mudd, details below.
JJ – no Mudd for Black
In an email to AICN’s Harry Knowles JJ said they were talking to Black about "doing something — but not Mudd." Knowles notes that it is very likely something not related to Trek, which would be backed up with JJ also noting that besides "blue sky" conversations he and the rest of the Supreme Court (Bryan Burk, Damon Lindelof, Roberto Orci & Alex Kurtzman) "have not had MEETING ONE about a sequel". JJ did joke that the sequel should have "a sh–load more lens flares."
Regarding Mudd, there still is no word on if the lovable space pirate originally played by Roger C. Carmel would be in a sequel, but if he were to be, Black would be a good choice, but I kind of like the idea of JJ’s best bud Greg Grunberg in the role. In April Grunberg told me that he would "absolutely love" to play Mudd, and would even don the big mustache and earring.
Grunberg as Mudd, should Mudd even be in the movie?
To Mudd or not to Mudd?
So what do you think, should they bring back Harry Mudd? Or Cyrano Jones? Or any other more whimsical characters from The Original Series? If so, should they just be minor characters? Say what you think in our new poll and in the comments section below.
While you contemplate that, watch some clips from "I, Mudd"
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Comments»
Would be a cool move, but won’t happen.
“Jack Black NOT In Talks For Harry Mudd”
GOOD.
Well, at least Grunberg is as annoying as Mudd.
However, I don’t see that character in a Trek movie. He’s just too goofy to be a villain or anything else.
Okay, I’ll go there…
William Shatner as Mudd!
I think haveing Harry Mudd as an interwoven side story would be great, like stealing something from the real villain in the story.
Less Harry Mudd, more android women please.
they can only do a number of things for the sequel:
-Khan like villian (maybe even Khan)
-mysterious force threatening earth/galaxy
-like hearted villian like Mudd/Q (which i dont think would happen)
-Klingons/Romulans/Borg
-Timetravel
Cyrano Jones makes more sense….if there was any sense to it at all.
Nah, I have no interest in seeing Harry Mudd in a motion picture.
If Jack Black is ever in ANY “Star Trek” movie, ever, I’ll drive to LA and slap JJ Abrams right in his face.
They won’t bring mudd in unless they want to aim for the wiggles market.
@7 add to that list – Something completely new.
Awww, come on! Jack Black, for Mudd! It’s in the eyes, he’s PERFECT!!! Roger C. Carmel would be good too, but I just don’t see it.
7. God, I hope what you say isn’t true. Other than the third plot point (which you said won’t happen) the others have been done to death! I want some originality! Cool, they started a new timeline to throw off constraints of canon. NOW, how about throwing off the constraints of formulaic Trek and do some sci fi that is truly unique and interesting! Something mysterious. Something with some exploration. (This can be done and made exciting and interesting and with action if the writers don’t go for lazy, hackneyed seen it a gazillion times revenge, war, time travel, and unstoppable alien threat stories). That’s my hope. As I see, the sequel could go either way, though I worry a bit about J.J.’s instincts.
That said Mudd would be an interesting change of pace for the Trek films, though I can’t see him as the ‘A’ story. Perhaps he would lead into some greater mystery.
(I’d much rather see that than see them try to resuscitate Khan or do more mindless stuff with Klingons, Romulans, or Borg).
And although, I like the Mudd idea a bit, mostly I think they shouldn’t rehash things. What is the point of this alternate timeline if they are going to pick through Trek history and recycle it (from what little I saw Enterprise tried to do that too self-consciously in its last season it just got to be too much).
Jack Black is playing the Borg Queen.
Sorry for the big spoiler and no warning.
Please, no Mudd or Jones or any other goofy TOS character, unless they get quickly jettisoned out of an airlock. Please!
@7
I think I agree, though I very much doubt that they’d do time travel,
I think orci and co. even stated that they wouldn’t.
I personally hope for a bit more exploring like in the series because that’s what STar Trek should be about , though I guess that’s kind of hopeless because none of the movies was about that. . .
@ChrisFawkes: Borg Drag Queen! :)
Maybe Mudd for a (very) small side story/cameo, but not as main story. Love to see Grunberg though!
I have to say I loved Harry Mudd
“Spock you’re going to love it here” Lol
But as a B story – I think he adds a lot of colour to TOS episodes he is in.
Please no Mudd in the next movie.
Maybe interesting to have Harry Mudd be the one who finds the SS Botany Bay this time round, on a salvage operation
No goofyness – Harry Mudd was way too cheesy for my taste.
I don’t want Khan either – he’s been done, and done well. Plus, the old ‘destroy everything for revenge’ thing has been done pretty comprehensively by Nero as well.
I’m quite looking forward to the exploration of Vulcans as a kind of refugee race – I always thought in TNG that the El Aurians could have been used to much greater effect. Now they’ve got a chance to do it properly with Vulcans. And I’m not talking about Vulcans tending bar or chasing energy ribbons either.
And I would like to see some Klingons. Maybe not as main villains – that’s also been done to death – but they should definitely feature.Maybe some contact with the Cardassians and/or Bajorans?
Please JJ, something completely new and original! That’s why the new movie was a reboot in the first place.
Well my theory is still that Nero will be back. I don’t know, I never saw him die… could have survived in a borgified escape pod (Countdown). And if Sci-Fi told us anything it is that black holes are portals through space time, so….
Maybe Nero didn’t believe in the no-win scenario neither…
Please,no Mudd,no Khan in the next movie!!!!!
Be original PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
too bad, how freaking great would that it be?!
i cant believe they overlooked Finnegan in the movie… just one scene would have been great…
I don’t know about an actor to play him, but I like the idea of bringing Harry Mudd in. Even if it’s just as a secondary character. Although it’s interesting, since Carmel played Mudd differently in his two appearances. Would a new Mudd be some kind of third vision of the galactic rogue?
Jack Black? Noooooooooo!
His movies have sucked lately.
I think JJ should reinvent Harry Mudd with a Joker “personality”. Make Harry Mudd a sinister psychotic villain. He would kidnap Uhura. That would really make Spock be emotionally compromised.
NO! It would not be great at all. Mudd was a minor character, not motion picture material. Mudd should not be in the movie, but Jack Black would make a GREAT Mudd! I mean I could not see Simon Pegg as scotty same with a few other but they all carried their weight well and in a respectable manor. Jack Black may be immature, cooky and not the best actor, but if he did star trek I believe he would step up to the plate and outperform his last roles, like the new actors did and perform admirably and honor the franchise. As great as Jack Black would be for Mudd, A: I don’t want the character of Mudd in a new star trek movie, there are far better characters out there not to mention the ones that have not even been created yet! B: I don’t want Jack Black in a Star Trek movie.
Hugh Jackman as Trelaine. Jack Black as Q!
Gay.
Bob O…
PLEASE BE ORIGINAL!!!
I’m not against seeing some old characters like Mudd in the film, but I’d sure like to see an original adversary/threat in this next film…
I’d get a kick out of a Harry Mudd appearance…but not as the main focus. I wouldn’t mind seeing Kirk go up against Kor for the first time in a battle of wits and ships. a villian doesn’t have to be driven by revenge…just a decidedly different point of view. kor was a great military leader and he believed his actions (and empire) were completely in the right. and so did Kirk…which led to a great conflict. And drama.
What about a new small (or bigger) series with the new crew trying to restore the original timeline (at least timetravel). In the end they could be early enough at the supernova and use the red matter to destroy it.
So, the original timeline will be restored and they will have a couple of new adventures in between – maybe with Harry Mudd.
Straight.
As much as I adore the classic series and all of those characters/vilians; I really want to see them go somehwere new with new characters (not necessarily villans). I voted for Mudd as a minor, but please do these familiar characters as a nod to die-hard fans, rather than making them the focal point of a movie.
While I am one of the few that thinks “City on the Edge of Forever” is a tad bit over rated, I’d love to see something more “science fictiony” like that….rather than a villan/threat of the week. Just my 2 cents.
Mudd yes. Jack Black?…uh…NO. Wrong personality entirely.
#33-I like your idea, too. But not as the main focus. Also, PLEASE no TNG aliens (Cardassians, Borg, Bajorans, etc.). Focus on the original aliens OR create new ones.
My casting wish is that they include more women in the crew next time. The second film should give a significant role to Nurse Chapel (already heard as an off-camera voiceover), Yeoman Rand, maybe Elizabeth Dehner or Helen Noel or somebody. Maybe even a new female character, but there are a number of existing ones to draw on.
25: Since this Kirk entered the Academy 5 years later than his counterpart, he would’ve never met Finnegan.
As far as Harry Mudd is concerned…he was a goofy character. However, he WAS a pirate and slave trader…something that could easily be made into a more serious villain. I guess I’m kind of on the fence about this. I could see the character as a true threat with a sharp-witted and sarcastic tongue. But for a theatrical movie I don’t think I’d like to see the caricature portrayed in the old series. That was fun for a couple TV episodes but not fitting for what is now a blockbuster franchise in the making. Less cheese and more threat is needed.
I agree with most here that I don’t think I’d like to see Khan in the new movies either. It’s too iconic a villain from the original cast movies and I believe it is better left as undisturbed sacred ground.
Some dude wrote a script I read a while back with Mudd in it. He came across like a Rick Blaine/Casablanca meets Han Solo-type who ran this casino in a Las Vegas-type place way out on the fringes of the Federation–near the Klingons. Actually now that I think of it, it was a really good story–and Mudd was still an ”operator” but had a history with Gary Mitchell–who was also in it. His character didn’t come across at all ”contrived.” I think Mudd is a valid character to explore–just intelligently I hope.
Either way, someone should ”clear up the Mudd issue.” Yeah, I know…
People who believe that ST XII should retell old stories (Khan etc.) should be hospitalized. Srsly.
I think Mudd is a great choice.. the best parts of these movies sometimes is the humor between the characters in the face of crisis…. and the Mudd character has a tremendous amount of potential…
As much as I’d love to see Mudd I keep hoping for Kang or some other Klingon that Kirk ran into.
Bring back Lee Merriweather. Oh, oh, oh…or Marriette Hartley. She’s probably still in that frozen wasteland where Spock left her. She could be pretty PO’d for being there for 40 years.
No, no, no, no, no. No.
While Jack Black as Harry Mudd is an interesting move, just do Space Seed. It’s what we want. Devote 2 hours of movie to that plot. Then we can leave STII alone, and Chekhov was at least on the ship this time.
I suppose anything can be done well.
I’m not really a big fan of Jack Black’s work. It seems very lazy, like much of Will Ferrell’s. Yes, I know both make more money before they shave than I make all lifetime. Still, both have turned in a lot of empty calorie movies.
Do we really want TOS remade ep by ep? Sure, it worked great for Khan, and it was nice to see Sarak as well. But, do we need a JJ version of The Apple? Or Mudd? Or Way to Eden?? (Ye, brother!)
JJ has shown more creativity than that. I’d love to see new actors take on Rand, Mitchell, or Kor, but in NEW stories.
Wouldn’t mind if Mudd showed up to HELP the crew in a surprise twist. Ricky Gervais would be my choice for Mudd.
What about Dan Aykroyd for Harry Mudd???
NO!!!
For chrissakes, COME ON. No Harry Mudd, no Cyrano Jones, NO freakin’ KHAN. I mean come on people—can’t you envision ANY originality for these future films? Are we really going to go back and rehash episodes from the original series? And above all KHAN? Do we really need to see that character again? We had his story, and he went from beginning to end. I for one one feel it would simply ruin *everything* to bring him back.
And I don’t care if there’s actors out there who could pull off Mudd, Jones, Khan, or whomever. It’s irrelevant. This is as much admitting that people making films today are incapable of coming up with fresh, original ideas, if you go back and rehash those characters. Now, granted—there’s a lot of evidence that people making films today CAN’T come up with fresh, original ideas—this latest film, while I liked it a lot, can be viewed as more proof of that. But all the same, let’s not return to “crutches” to support stories. No more Khan, Mudd, or any other side characters. A Klingon maybe—that’s different—they’re generic bad guys, even if you bring back one of the captains from the original series—that’s not the same principle. But I particularly loathe the idea of bringing Khan back, as though the struggle between Khan and Kirk was the main thing Star Trek was ever really about. It wasn’t. It made for one good story arc, from the original episode to the second movie—and THAT WAS IT.
We have to get out of this notion that Star Trek needs “a villain” in every movie. That reduces what it was about to “Captain Video” levels, only with gazillion-dollar special effects. What Star Trek needs is a CHALLENGE, not a villain.
I found the latest film enjoyable as hell (the actors particularly did excellent jobs—not a bad one amongst them, and many of them absolutely NAILED their roles) but I found Orci and Kurtzman’s writing sloppy and the plot rushed. The film had an oddly claustrophobic feeling for me—whizzing by at great speed and up and down like the rollercoaster ride it was supposed to be—but somehow too contained and limited in vision. I’ve seen it twice and still can’t put my finger on why I felt that way about it. But I wish to god that the writers, next time, would seek out real science fiction writers—or at least specific inspiration from sci-fi—for their story ideas. THAT is where the best ideas from the original series came from, and it’s those kinds of ideas that the next film needs to succeed… NOT going back and rehashing OLD ideas that have been done and done adequately well.
It doesn’t matter what the storyline is, as long as there’s LENS FLARES! ;-)
I don’t really want any new aliens… running a bit too close to the ’species-of-the-week’ attitude on TNG. Some species from the TNG-DS9 era have been thoroughly explored – esp. the Cardassians and the Bajorans – but I wouldn’t mind seeing them again in passing. But there are some species that have been glossed over – the Breen, for example. OK, they were in the Dominion War, but there wasn’t actually that much exploration of their society, culture or motivations.
I’d like to see an exploration of other races that we’re familiar with, but that haven’t been given the full treatment.
True or not, It’s a great idea!
No. No Mudd. No Cyrano Jones. No. NO NO NO NO NO. Not as major characters. (I agree with #48 on both points — that Gervais might work, but ONLY in a pop-out cameo.)
Both Mudd & Jones are delightful and memorable and quirky, etc., etc., but it’s a miracle of context & charisma that I don’t want to strangle them the moment they appear on screen. The chance for a total misfire is too great.
If Abrams & Co are really thinking about revisiting eccentric weirdos from the original series, why not resurrect the throbbing brains from “The Gamesters of Triskelion”? That’d be easy to cast. Sheesh.
#53 – That’d be easy to cast. LOL
I can think of a few brains that need to be cast.
Jack Black and Greg Grunberg in Star Trek XII = Why not
But please no further TOS characters and story rehash!
It’s a diffrent Universe, we don’t have to redo all canon, characters and stories.
Just continue with what started with XI (no planet Vulcan anymore and start from there)
# 53 Agreed. As much as I enjoyed the characters of Cyrano Jones, Harry Mudd, and Khan, I’d like to see Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman come up with NEW adventures for the crew of the Enterprise. I loved “Tribbles,” “Space Seed,” and the “Mudd” episodes, but I have absolutely no desire to see a two-hour, big-screen rehash of ANY of them.
Shatner as Mudd = GENIUS!!! (if only in the Mirror Universe . . .)
I like the idea, tho. :)
JJ, Burk, Lindelof, Orci & Kurtzman: PLEASE do something entirely original for the next movie. Please DO NOT rehash old TOS episodes or movies! Please.
Mudd, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There was brief rumors of him for Trek 4, before the actor died…. and I think the idea of bringing back such a “whimsical’ character would be a nice change from having to have earth shattering events in every movie. Cyrano would be fine, too… I’ve no problem with bringing back original villians/characters, as long as originality is brought to the mix… not remakes of episodes. Tributes, mentions as past missions, etc….
but absolutely no Khan. Don’t mess with something that does not need messing with. And no Jack Black involvement in any way shape or form. One of the great mysteries of the cosmos is why people think he can act, or that he is funny…
And we certainly still can work in past crew as well… Chapel deserves more than an off screen one-line mention… Rand, Riley, LESLIE! (man or god?) Kyle, and the like. And Gary Mitchell is still ripe… that might be the only episode I’d like to see remade.
I want NEW stories. I think to redo Khan, the tribbles, Harry Mudd, etc. is taking the lazy way – creatively. They need to come up with new adventures. LOVED the new movie, but Nero was a little too Khan-like for me.
Ladies and gentlemen, especially those up in arms about recasting old villains/characters, you are completely missing the point of this new franchise of Star Trek. The whole point of a “reboot” is to take what was old and revitalize it to appeal to a modern culture. As it’s been said many times, the only real reason for the time travel plot device was to placate these Trek “purists” who didn’t want the “continuity” (if there ever was such a thing in Trek) totally messed up. Other than that, the new plot achieved its purpose of showing the mainstream that Star Trek can be cool. That was only the first step of this reboot. The next step is to introduce what was old to the new audience, i.e. the already established characters/villains.
Think of it this way; in this day and age of comic book movies you don’t see all these comic book geeks up in arms about how the movies aren’t taking place in the EXACT decade the comic originally took place in, or that the characters aren’t acting EXACTLY as they were in the original prints (”Here I come to save the day!”…cheesy, right?), you get the idea. Trekkies are a unique breed when it comes to genre fans…sometimes I think the stereotypes exist because 99% of the time they’re true.
Let’s use Batman as an example. If Batman Begins were a reboot in a similar fashion as the new Star Trek, the new Bruce Wayne would simply be Bruce Wayne Junior so as not to damage the “continuity” of the 60’s Batman TV show. Why wasn’t this the case? Because comic book fans aren’t as rabid about the continuity of the comic when it comes to reboots, because they totally understand it’s just that, a reboot.
Long story short, I don’t really consider this new Star Trek franchise as an “alternate timeline” despite what happened in the movie. I simply consider it “New Star Trek”, and I’m fine with that. I therefore have no problem bringing back previous characters and villains, as long as they’re not total carbon copies of the original. Khan is the only exception…you CANNOT top Ricardo Montalban as Khan!
Bring on improved, reintroduced versions of Harry Mudd, Kang, Commodore Decker, etc.!
I love Mudd! He was one of many reasons why I preferred TOS to all the other series. TOS always had a sense of humor, I don’t see why the movies shouldn’t.
That said, I agree with several here who say he couldn’t be in the A plot, maybe a side story that ties in somehow…
Star Trek would loose soOOOOOO many points of awesomeness if they had Jack Black in ANY Star Trek movie. I’d become a hardcore Star Wars fan instead. I’d rather that not happen.
Q as the villain for Star Trek 2!
Sorry, but poor Harry was visiting Vulcan and didn’t get off planet in time before it imploded into the singularity.
So…. Harry isn’t available in this particular timeline.
Therefore, the sequel need not revisit Harcourt Fenton Mudd. In fact, I hope that the sequel doesn’t rehash anything from TOS.
I thought that was the whole point of rebooting… new and different adventures with the original crew.
I don’t want to see Mudd in a film, but if this did go forward, then Black needs to play the character more akin to his role in King Kong rather than the Orange County or School of Rock persona.
I would prefer a new story altogether- no Khan, no Mudd. Some TOS style Klingons would be nice. And if you absolutely have to have someone from the old show, I hereby continue my quest to get Jolene Blalock cast as T’Pring. Sarek’s going to want Spock to marry a nice Vulcan girl- only a few thousand left to choose from… and we already know Jolene can wear the ears.
50 – yeah but WHY no KHHHHHHHAAAAAN?!
why is Batman for e.g. allowed to bring back and re-Interpret classic villians like the Joker and star trek mustnt?
i leaning more toward the idea of having Khan as the MAIN villian – but discovered differently – by another Fed ship or even the klingons/romulans years b4 he was in the prime timeline (thanks to neros intervention disrupting the timeline) – no wanting revenge against kirk etc so it wouldnt really be another khan like villian out for revenge! (which is kinda what Nero was)…not even a retred of Space Seed…just having Khan as the villian (maybe along with the klingons*) in a totally new adventure like the joker in TDK
(*in fact i remember reading early reports about TWOK that erroneously said Khan was leader of the klingons!…the sequel could finally make that a reality!…plus khan mentions the old klingon proverb…maybe that was a prelude to a tantalising glimpse into another reality where he is their leader?)
We need more lens flares and we gotta have more cowbell!
And no Mr. Black! That’s the fact, Jack!
Bill Murray as Harry?
oh yeah and title – “Star Trek: Khan-age” (double meaning u see :)
No.
No retreads of old characters or episodes, at least not yet. Boldly go do some new stuff!
I think Tom Hanks should play Matt Decker, and we see some elements of various episodes. With the timeline altered, stories should not be remakes/revisits.
Lots of elements would affect this, the big one being Spock (Prime) in the new Trek universe. Like it or not, he’s there. Just like, like it or not, Kirk was killed in the TOS timeline in GENERATIONS. It’s part of the story.
But with Spock (Prime) there, who’s to say what has been revealed, and what is known to the new universe characters. Spcok (P) mind-melded with Jim Kirk (New Universe) — he even said something about the emotion that was transferred. Who’s to say what echoes of the TOS timeline didn’t also echo in, which will affect his knowledge of a situation.
And beyond that, there’s no “temporal prime directive” — this is a wholly new universe, from the Nero-incursion on. Spock (P) could tell Starfleet about any number of incidences (his mind is like a steel trap, eh?) — send a ship to these coordinates to find a sleeper ship with a fugitive from the Eugenics Wars, send a small fleet of vessels to these coordinates with a proper implosion weapon to incapacitate a cone-shaped planet destroyer (that may one day prove an invaluable weapon against a race of cyborgs who assimilate entire worlds and cultures), Daystrom’s duotronic computer can work but will need these modifications, send no ships to the region around Talos star system (though I’d love to hear Quinto yell “The Women!”), etc etc etc. Logical or not? I would be interested to hear Spock (P & Q) speak on the matter.
And let’s not forget the bulk (? a large portion, if not) of Starfleet was destroyed at Vulcan by Nero. There’s got to be some rebuilding.
I want a new story. I want elements of TOS there — a shot of the ENTERPRISE leaving K-7, radio transmissions from the INTREPID (no longer manned wholly by Vulcans, I would assume) encountering a hole in space but not entering it. I would imagine the incidences would have changed the relationship between the three major powers (Fed, Klingon, Romulan); so would eps like BALANCE OF TERROR still even be fodder?
There, too, is a key to a new story. Some of Trek’s best stories were cribbed, per se, from other stories, be they science fiction, western, war, romance. BALANCE was a take on the WWII submarine stories, ARENA was a retelling of the sci-fi classic. Look for the elements, and the rest becomes clear. As Bob & Co. have discovered, once you start writing, the story takes on a life of its own.
Whatever the case, though, I’ll be sitting in that movie seat come next release. I had a blast at STAR TREK, and look forward to repeat viewings at the DVD/BD release. And as I’ve said before, I agree with Mr. Nimoy’s wife — as the film drew towards the finale, I didn’t want it to end. I’ll go one further and say I actually wished this had been the introduction to a weekly series, because I wanted more, and soon.
Harry Mudd is obnoxious and completely ridiculous. I like the direction ST (09) took and I’d hate to see that ruined by having Mudd in it. as for Jack Black, I am not certain this is an appropriate Genre for him, he’s had some great movies but doesn’t seem to fit the Star Trek universe
The next film to be completely, unabashedly original? No TOS storyline references? Scary. They’ll have to go to another galaxy to explore strange, new worlds, etc.
ATTN: SUPREME COURT!
Remember the Romulan Commander in “Balance of Terror”? Right before he blows up his ship (to keep it out of Federation hands), he tells Kirk, “You and I are of a kind, Captain. In a different reality, we could be friends.”
I think the Romulans might be worried about some kind of retaliation after what Nero did. Perhaps the Enterprise is sent to patrol the border, even get involved in a few skirmishes–until he meets the Rom Commander. This could be that “different reality.” Perhaps Kirk can show off his budding negotiation skills. He and the RomComm work toward a detente (Perhaps to join forces against the Klingons who are trying to take advantage of a decimated Starfleet?)
I’m not saying that Kirk and the RomComm suddenly become drinking buddies (”Try some Romulan Ale, Captain.”) or dance partners, but they could form a respect for each other.
Whaddya think?
I havt to say No on Mudd. Keep it kool and great. Doomsday Machine,Nomad.( Voiced by James Earl Jones) An Attacking Fleet from a race not seen before, Or maybe an attack by the Breen. We know very little about them.Something along those lines.
I say do the Dooms Day Machine and have Hanks Play Matt Decker. Or have Nomad coming in and have Nomads voice be played by James Earl Jones. Could be some fantastic stuff.
A possible plot –
In our new timeline, Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones are wandering space merchants that come across the SS Botany Bay with it’s suspended crew.
They see profit.
And they seek the highest bidder
@ #10.
AMEN… I think I would join you in such an endeavor.
I do think that seeing Mudd again would be a better idea than trying to redo Khan.
But NO JACK BLACK!!!
#78 Nice Idea. Or if you truly want Shatner in the film have Pines Kirk Visit Roger Korby and then Korby tries to clone Pines Kirk But something happens and instead of a Younger Pine Kirk we get an older Shatner Kirk and have the Shatner Kirk be the Bad Guy and he wants to take over the Galaxy.
No Mudd No Jack Black
I want the second movie to have more depth and storytelling and character development. Humor is great but it shouldn’t be the entire story. I want originality and a thought provoking script.
Ideas for the new movie:
Rogue Vulcans angry over the destruction of their homeworld seek revenge
New kick ass villian that threatens the universe (please make it a female)
First Contact mission that goes badly and the repercussions that occur
#75 – “Remember the Romulan Commander in “Balance of Terror”? Right before he blows up his ship (to keep it out of Federation hands), he tells Kirk, “You and I are of a kind, Captain. In a different reality, we could be friends.” ”
Oh, man, that is good. I had forgotten about that.
So would we see Ben Cross as the Romulan Commander? That would have a certain sense of properness.
BTW, I wish there was a way here on TrekMovie to suggest stories/inquiries, because I’d sure like to take Playmates to task for making the ENTERPRISE but not one other ship from the film. My kids loved the movie, I got them ENTERPRISES (Enterprii?) and then the questions began.
Did they make a Kelvin for me to rescue? No.
How about one of the other Starfleet ships? No.
How about the Narada? No, but it’s due out as a toy in about a year.
How about a Klingon Battlecruiser? No. (And, yes, they were in the movie, in the Kobayashi Maru sequence.
Have Jack Black play Roger Corby.
47. J.J.’s Way to Eden! Way to go! That would be sweeeet, but instead of space hippies they could be space goths who have Borg implants and they are being led by Khan!
oh, and of course it could be called…Way to Emo or Way to Angst or Way to Hell!
Changing the subject a little, but I think we will all be totally surprised by the plot and villians in the next movie. I think what we can be sure of this: Spock will end his relationship with Uhura in order to take a Vulcan wife and procreate the Vulcan species, leaving the door open for Chris Pine AKA Kirk, to begin his relationship with Zoe, she’ll do it just to spite Spock. Remember, Hell hath no fury………….
Jack Black = Cyrano Jones
Tom Hanks = Harry Mudd
And they should be only cameos, because any big name star would make it harder to believe in the characters and plot. I also agree the story should center around Klingons: bring back Kor and Koloth (and maybe Kang & wife).
Also, with Koloth and Cyrano Jones comes Tribbles! Can you imagine millions of tribbles in 3D?
You’re all wrong! It should be titled:
When Tribbles Attack!
Alien species takes asome tribbles and genetically alters their demeaner and sets them loose on unsuspecting traders to sell to Federation outposts and space stations, and bloody carnage unsues.
The Enterprises’ mission is to stop and destroy this new breed before it eats all of mankind and neighbouring planet populations.
Done in the genre of The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Shatner heavily made up is the bastard child of Cyrano Jones who has created a tribble predator that eats the tribbles.
For people who say Hell No to Jack Black should also say that about Shatner – both have same acting “ability” and both have same physical appearance.
This is new Trek: Let’s go where no one has gone before!
Alex Trabek: “Answer: In 2011, he played Harry Mudd in Star Trek 12, effectively killing the beloved franchise once and for all.”
Bob: “Who is Jack Black?”
Alex: “Right.”
Bob: “I’ll take “Star Trek” for $600.”
Alex: “Scientists at MIT discovered in 2011 that this — not black holes — makes time travel possible.”
Bob: “What are lens flares?”
Alex: “Right!”
89 – You’re kidding, right?
91 – lol!
Shameless Mudd Plug:
My band, the Muddflaps will be playing at the California Music Festival on July 4th (main stage). Come by and say hi.
More info here: http://www.myspace.com/chrisdoohan
# 82 – How about the Narada? No, but it’s due out as a toy in about a year.
-
That will be a mega choking hazard.
Jack Black would be perfect as Mudd, which of course means that it will never happen.
Jack Black not appearing is something of a comfort.
Abrams erased Vulcan and Romulus. He better come up with something completely original and just as compelling to take their place.
True: William Shatner was interviewed by Joan Lundon on Good Morning America in 1986 for Star Trek IV. Remember that this was LONG before the Trek spin-offs and a year before ST:TNG. Joan was interviewing the cast during the week and had a question: if the government were recalling all film, and you could only keep one episode of Trek, which one would it be? Shatner replied, he’d tell the government to take it all, let’s do something new.
My sentiments exactly. Part of the brilliance of this film (ST09) is that the Trek universe future is a blank canvas, and IMO doing a remake of Khan, or bringing back Harry Mudd, or trying to put the “prime canon” back into new Trek undermines what this movie accomplished.
We have a brand new, unexplored Trek universe. JJ, Robert, Alex, you have given us a new canvas — in the next film, please continue to show us NEW things!
NEW stories please. And Jack Black in a Trek movie would suck almost as much as Wil Ferrell in a Trek movie. Please, no stunt casting.
#94 – Chris — nice to see you in the film with Simon in the transporter scene! Your dad was a great guy — I met him a few times at conventions, may he rest in peace. We miss him.
#98 or Eddie Murphy in Star Trek IV! He was supposed to be Gillian Taylor (or a character like her). Look what Richard Pryor (great comedian) did to Superman III — some genres just don’t mix. Star Trek comedy can be done very poorly (*cough* Star Trek V *cough*) — I like jack Black and yes he looks like Harry Mudd but let’s leave that portrayal to an SNL skit.
I liked Jack Black in Shallow Hal, but I think his presence ruined King Kong.
He’s just not that good an actor in dramatic films.
All the best to him regardless.
Here’s my take on Harry Mudd…
http://tinyurl.com/m3y3v6
Next Movie- “Doomsday Machine War”. Please!!!!!!!!!!
#30: Lol!! Great idea!
I’d settle for even seeing one Andorian in the sequel, for a founding member of the Federation they sure were AWOL in the new film.
As for Harry Mudd, maybe as a cameo that sets things in motion but not as the main protagonist.
I dislike the Mudd character (dude, he’s a slimy pimp!) and unless I’m watching the episodes in order, I skip those with him in them (and sometimes skip them even when I am watching the episodes in order.)
I hope Mudd’s never in a movie. Not crazy about a stunt casting like Jack Black in ST either.
#31 Who is gay or what do you mean by that?
Harry Mudd wouldn’t be terrible on the side, but he doesn’t HAVE to be there by any means. He’s not important.
But please… PLEASE!!! DON’T DO KHAN.
I am with the people who don’t want them to just rehash things that happened in the prime timeline–there’s really no point to that. The only possible redo I could see would be the Mirror Universe, but that would be better for the third movie.
I’m also with the people who want to see something new–I want to see the Enterprise crew out there exploring, landing on new planets, encountering new life forms, all of that.
**I would like to see at some point how Abrams & co. do Klingons. I would love to see a mix of TOS era and movie era klingons, as if they were simply different morphologies of the same race (especially since we saw klingons of different colors and with different degrees of ridges on their heads).
Something outrageous can happen in the third one. The second movie needs to serve to fully bind the crew together and make them a single, fluidly working team.
Whatever happens, I’m excited for the sequel!
Well, i don’t think there’s too much cause for worry guys. I seriously doubt that Harry Mudd is going to be the bad guy in the next movie. Although I hope they give him like a 3-second role just to show the fans that yes, harry mudd, is now in a motion picture.
How about Khan in the next movie, and “The Rise of Khan” as the title?
Jack Black/Harry Mudd is not the way to go.
So heres my sequel pitch- Robert April, who worked on Constitution class program, thinks the Klingon Empire has been weakened after Narada’s attacks and thinks UFP should strike now to take down the Empire. The renegade experienced captain steals the NX-1700 Constitution, which looks like a half-way between TOS ENT and the movie ship. His first officer is a young man who also wants to take down the Klingons…Gary Mitchell. They attack some Klingon outposts, and the Enterprise tries to stop them. War between the Klingons and Federation is provoked…setting up a third movie.
They can call it
STAR TREK: HERE’S MUDD IN YER EYE
jk
Prime Timeline Mirror Universe Kirk should be the the main baddie played by William Shatner. Kirk Vs Kirk. This way we can get some elements of what Shatner wanted his Enterprise episode to be.
I’d love to see Cyrano Jones – he had some depth:
Kirk (holding a tribble): “There aught to be a maintenance manual on these things.”
Jones (philisoically): “Then what would happen to man’s search for knowledge.”
Harry Mudd wasn’t as interesting to me. First he was a scheming antagonist (Mudd’s Women), then he was a bafoon (I, Mudd). Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed the episodes with Harry Mudd, but the character seemed more of a plot device.
Two common threads seem to be happening here with regard to the next film. To Mr. Orci and Mr. Kurtzman, I submit these common sentiments:
1) Please explore strange new worlds
2) No Khan remake
I keep seeing this over and over. And I have to agree.
Good luck with the next installment!
Could be worse. Awhile back, Warner Bros was seriously considering JB as the Green Lantern! That would’ve been terrible, and while we’re at it…Seth Rogen is playing the Green Hornet? No thanks.
NO JACK BLACK IN STAR TREK. EVER.
And many TOS guest characters are far too cheesy for this day and age. That said, the show itself was kind of cheesy (though loveable, obviously) and they managed to make it work so I’m open minded to revamping some old villains and other guests.
No Black, No Mudd. No retreading old material. No big lizzard monster or salt sucking shapeshifter.
Nothing that’s going to keep Star Trek from being taken seriously EVER AGAIN!
Here is my Pitch. They Find Dr Roger Korby Still Alive or so they think. He Hidnaps Kirk and clones him but instead of the Young Kirk we see the Shatner Kirk and this one is Evil. He gets to the Big E and says someting happend to him and gets the Crew to go along for a short while. The Big E gets to Earth and Prime Spock sees the older but eveil Kirk and once he tells Spock what planet they were on. Prime Spock Then Temperaly melds with the Shat Kirk and Kirk Gets to much of Prime Spocks memories but prime Spock knows this is not the Jim Kirk that is real and good. Evil Shatner Kirk then tris to Kill Spock and and Shat Kirk steals a top seceret Device thats a prototye of the Genises Experiment that a young Dr Marcus is working on and as Shat Kirk is fleeing he comes accross the S.S Botney Bay and from the Images from Prime Spocks meld he knows that Khan is there and he can use khan to build an Empire with the prototype of the Genises Torpedo and with Khans help they get the prototype working. When prime Spock tells his younger self what happened they race back in the Big E to save the younger kirk but as usual he is already escapeing and thus the mission begins.
# 120
Um.
No?
I’m so sick of Hollywood trying to regurgitate things that have already been done. We got our new Trek so why do we want to rehash ideas that have already been done?! I just do not get it.
We need new direction, fresh ideas.
For one, can we get a communicator that actually looks like it is from the future? Maybe like a mini hologram arm-band device or something?
That would be a nice start.
For the record, I LOVED the little hologram ball thingie that Nero’s henchman threw at the captain of the Kelvin! The one depicting Prime Spock… That was so cool
Having watched ST for all of its 40+ years, I have had enough of retread storylines and characters. So, please, no Mudd-slinging.
Query to the powers that be: Are the memories of Spock Prime intact from his “universe” in the multi-verse? If so, wouldn’t his memories have been shared with Kirk in the movie’s mind-meld? And, even if not, it would be fun to see the sequel(s) play with some contrasting of Spock Prime’s knowledge of one universe, versus the current character’s knowledge and experience.
Maybe I’m just into dramatic irony.
Mudd in Mudd’s Women, yes. Very different character there from what we saw later in I, Mudd.
This would be Mudd up to 7 years before the traditional 5YM… he could be much more into slave trading, and the like. A younger, more dangerous Mudd that we never saw. We got shades of it in Mudd’s Women. Remember, he’d stolen Leo Walsh’s Class-J ship by some means, and destroyed it in trying to evade the Enterprise, which was damaged in the chase. No comedy there.
Mudd can be a maguffin to the sequel movie Star Trek: Stellar Flares, as the Enterprise on its mission of discovery attempts to discern the cause and origin of “unexpected” supernovas in an area that is in an expanding direction of Federation colonization.
There aren’t many things that would make me not go see a Star Trek film, but Jack Black would be one of them.
Wow… this thread is scary. You are all so mired in the past. What JJ et al were trying to do was free Trek from the enormous baggage of the nearly 50 years of stories, without losing the essesnce of the characters. He did that. While including a reference or two to some previous Trek villains/episodes/characters is good for nostalgia, retelling those stories IS NOT what this revised franchise needs right now. It needs more FRESH storylines. We need to see how Kirk and Pike foster their mentor relationship (one that never existed between Kirk & Pike Prime). It’s a new take on characters we love and care about. Mudd as a passing comedic character could be fun, but let’s explore NEW worlds of thought and ideas. Let’s not retell the same old stories with better special effects. If you want that, but TOS Remastered on Blu Ray and DVD.
Thanks
Whatever is done for the next film, it needs to set up a new “trilogy” or series of films to come. The reboot obviously proved that this franchise is back and the next will no doubt be a blockbuster in the same vein as Dark Knight. Mudd can come back and I would love to see an updated version of that character but it can only be done in one of two ways. Either he (or she) is a minor role only there for comedic purposes or the role is expanded to something like the Joker in Batman. Nothing inbetween would work for me. If it’s a minor role, then I could care less if it’s Jack Black (although I think you could do a lot better). If it’s a major center-piece role, then set it up for a major actor who would be available for a series of films (the joker was originally going to be more than just that one movie until Ledger’s untimely demise). Johnny Depp or someone like him wold be great for that part – his Jack Sparrow character is already sort of like Mudd. But again, this needs to really set up the next series of films.
I actually thought it would be kind of fun, way back when we were told there might be celebrity cameos in the current film, if Jack Black and maybe his Tenacious D partner Kyle Gas appeared in a scene as Tellarites.
As for the next film, I’ll simply say that if we *must* play up the alternate reality aspect of the reboot and we *must* have our crew battle a TOS enemy in an albeit alternate version of events we’ve already seen (and that’s my argument against such a thing: that we’ve already done this and I’m still really tired of Star Trek simply re-doing what we’ve already seen over and over ad infinitum) then I would probably rather want to see Harry Mudd or an updated and somewhat different take on the Klingons than to see Khan again. Khan, for one thing, is too too close to Nero in motivation and temperment (not to mention the fact they both have a coldly dispassionate way of inserting icky alien critters in people’s head-holes to get them to comply with their wishes). I’d hope the next film gives us more aliens and more of the Federation as well as more of an exploratory mission for the crew. Maybe a touch of the Prime Directive — even if Kirk is bending it. Less militaristic. A literary reference, even Shakespeare, would be nice (it’s a Trek tradition). More McCoy and Scotty next time around. And more exterior shots of the Enterprise — JJ went the Cloverfield monster route on our girl on the current one — we barely see enough of her accept in quick shots and at odd angles.
No TOS return visits please. Why the frak did you establish a new universe in which to tell stories only to return to the old one?
I again state that Orci, Krtzman, and Abrams would have to be ready to face a lot of flak about not having an original idea if they chose that route.
#126. I do agree with you. As much fun as it is to speculate and bring ideas for the next movie a lot of those tie ins with the new reality and old one should be kept to Novels. For the new Blockbuster it should be new and fresh but still honor what has come before as was the case for Trek 09.
12. TNC1701 –
“Awww, come on! Jack Black, for Mudd! It’s in the eyes, he’s PERFECT!!! Roger C. Carmel would be good too, but I just don’t see it.”
I don’t see it either since Roger C. Carmel died in 1986.
I think there is always room for diverse casting in Star Trek. The question to me is simply whether or not the actor/actress in question is *appropriately* casted. If there was a need for a goofy character with limited impact upon the story, I fail to see any reason why this guy couldn’t pull it off.
With that said, I’m not impressed with the notion of Harry Mudd appearing in a Star Trek feature film, particularly since neither of the two episodes of TOS in which he appeared are exactly among my top twenty or so favorites. Those episodes are okay, but I wouldn’t put them on any recommendation list. However, it isn’t beyond reason to suggest that it could work within the proper story context, and a brief appearance couldn’t possibly ruin the movie for me.
I am not a fan of any of Jack Black’s films, but I’m not a particular fan of Winona Ryder or Tyler Perry’s work either—and neither actor’s inclusion in ST09 had any adverse impact upon my ability to enjoy the film. To make such a blanket statement as to suggest that he couldn’t possibly pull of any character who has a place in the Star Trek Universe seems a bit much. The possibilities within that universe are far too many to say that, IMO.
The casting department at Bad Robot has a pretty good track record (particularly April Webster). If it was to be announced that Jack Black had been cast in a sequel, I would feel fairly confident that he had been appropriately casted. I’m not sure I would even be at all skeptical about it.
I wouldn’t mind Harry Mudd making a minor appearance in the next movie, along the lines of his planned scene with McCoy in “Star Trek III” (the role was changed to the backward-talking guy because Roger C. Carmel was in too poor health.)
I have to agree with those asking for more female characters in the next movie. Getting Chapel into the movie is a must, and a love interest for Kirk would help (please no Kirk/Uhura/Spock love triangle.) It should be Carol Marcus, to help “get the future back on track”, but Helen Noel or Janice Rand would be good, too.
Does anyone really doubt that the next movie will be something other than a remake of Master and Commander?
#132
I have to say, Closet, that I still didn’t care too much for Simon Pegg as Scotty. I think Pegg is great but it just didn’t click for me. Perhaps it was written a bit too broadly for my taste. I always preferred the Scotty that was the best guy to sit in the big chair if Kirk wasn’t around. In TOS you could almost get the feeling that Scotty would have made a decent first officer or captain. Heck, I’ll bet even Mr. Spock could work with Scotty in the center seat. This movie made Scotty out to be an bumbling genius and that just didn’t square with how I perceived the character. I realize that James Doohan’s portrayal got a bit more comedic as the films progressed, but I still like the Scotty that could take the conn and stare down the Klingons if the need arose.
So count that one as a bad casting decision as far as I am concerned.
How about a crazed genetic scientist taking the DNA from Harry Mudd, Cryno Jones , Finnegan , The klingon and romulan commanders , and Khan, putting them in a centrfuge and spinning them at warp speed , then taking the end result and planting it on the Doomsday Machine , while the Enterprise , armed with the M-5 computer battles it!
Star Trek XII:
Throw Some $#!+ and See What Sticks
LOL
Just Kidding
*ducks*
A few thoughts….
1) No rehashing of old plot PLEASE!!!!
2) For the love of God, every LEAVE THE KHAN THING ALONE!!!!
3) No Shatner….let’s put that one to bed quickly.
4) No more Nimoy. He served his purpose. Now it’s time for Quinto to be Spock full time.
5) If Winonna Ryder and Tyler Perry can be in a Star Trek film so can Jack Black. He was pretty good in Enemy of the State.
6) I loved Simon Pegg’s Scotty. He’s an engineer that just cares about his engines and doesn’t need to command. He knows that his place is in the engine room. Kinda like how Trip was second highest ranking member of Enterprise but wasn’t first officer.
@ 61. The Original Animated Next Generation Deep Space Voyager Enterprise – The real reason for the reboot was to make a crap load of money. If ir didn’t make money they would have shut down the franchise.
If they want to make some money enlist some Bollywood talent. John Abraham would make a fine Spock. His facial features are right and he has a more appropriate voice than Zack Quinto. In my opinion, Quinto’s voice is too effeminate to be a convincing Spock, or a bad guy like Sylar for that matter… He sounds like the whining, skinny from kid from down the street trying to be a tough guy and play with the big boys.
@ 75. ster julie – Sounds like Captain Archer and Commander Shran. Not that it’s a bad thing.
@ 121. JL – Right on about the Communicator.
And what’s up that new shiny Phaser? An enemy can see light bouncing off it’s reflective surface with the naked eye from ten clicks. Going into battle or hostile situation with a JJ & Co. phaser is like going deer hunting with an accordion. Get a military adviser for the next flick, guys.
And what’s up with all the Batman comparisons? Star Trek doesn’t need to rip off The Joker. It doesn’t even need a villian.
Consider Children of Men. A science fiction film that is much more emotionally engaging and supremely more successful artistically than ST:XI/2K9… But without all the Star Wars and BSG ripoffs, trendy lens flares and shaky cams that will look dated and silly in a few years.
No friends, what Star Trek needs is Q and the Q Continuum to come back and fix the timeline that a really, really naughty bad robot has screwed up.
I find this inexplicable. Mudd was without any doubt the most popular guest character in all of Star Trek back in the day. He topped polls and lists of fans all the time. But from the reaction above it seems somewhere along the way too many Star Trek fans want to take themselves and Trek perhaps a bit TOO seriously.
And for that matter Mudd’s Women was NOT a comedy episode and Mudd was not a buffoon, he was a sneaky and conniving and menacing presence who traded in sex slaves.
All it takes is writing folks. Orci and Kurtzman and Damon could come up with some great story set on Rigel or some such place where Mudd, The Orions and other neer do wells are up to some no good and make it clever and interesting and fun. And it need not be the main plot but certainly could be.
But for Surak’s sake PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let’s be done with Earth, Vulcan, revenge seeking super villains and the great disaster for a bit.
And no Black for Mudd. But Tom Hanks would be good for that and Grunberg would be good.
But mostly lets shake it up. Do something very different than all the other Star Trek films. The table has been set. Lets go have some wild fun.
I think they should bring back Harry Mudd, and have Tom Hanks play the role. That would make the twelfth movie the best-grossing film overseas, as Angels and Demons has outperfomed Star Trek overseas.
#138-
“And what’s up that new shiny Phaser? An enemy can see light bouncing off it’s reflective surface with the naked eye from ten clicks. Going into battle or hostile situation with a JJ & Co. phaser is like going deer hunting with an accordion. Get a military adviser for the next flick, guys.”
Aye Mr. Scott!
SOOOOO true!!!
I know this has been stated by others before (and more eloquently than I will be able to) but “seeking out strange new worlds, new life-forms and civilizations” isn’t a plot. It’s a mission statement.
A plot is what happens when you’re prevented from doing your mission by someone or something. There will be an antagonist. There must be. In the end it’s the conflict of human personalities (even if they’re in the guise of alien personalities) that makes Star Trek interesting and watchable. (Although strange new worlds and civilizations can make for very pretty backdrops.)
As for Mudd and even Jack Black, some of the eloquence here has convinced me that this could be done well.
old TOS characters (by that i mean the one offs etc, not the main cast) are cool for bit parts, but the main villans etc. should be new creations. after all, this is new Trek, we don’t need to remake all the classic encounters from TOS, as they are still there!! in TOS!!
136
You forgot the part where the Enterprise can only defeat the machine by launching deranged Nomad probes into its maw.
In addition, there is a subplot in which Dr. Adams steals Spock’s brain and hopes to use it to resolve a war between two planets at the Galactic Barrier controlled by the machine-gods Landru and Vaal. This war is fought by computer, and the casualties report to disintegration chambers. All seems lost until Balok shows up and intimidates both parties with his giant disco-ball ship, and reveals the real culprit- Gorgon!
Also, Gary Mitchell is in there, somewhere.
#135—”So count that one as a bad casting decision as far as I am concerned.”
From your issues with the character in ST09, it seems that your problem is really with the way the character was written for the film—rather than how he was casted.
I think that they wanted to portray young Scotty as being nowhere near the crusty old veteran officer that Kirk wouldn’t hesitate to leave in command in his absence. In fairness, he’s about 8-9 years away ( in the context of the prime timeline) from being the guy we first saw “take the conn” in The Original Series.
Anyway, my point is simply that your issue seems to be with Orci/Kurtzman (who wrote the character to be as he was in the script), rather than with April Webster (whose job it is to find the right actor for that role).
It is perfectly legitimate for you to say that this is not how you imagined the much younger Scotty character to be, but that’s hardly a casting issue. It’s a writing issue. Is it not?
FWIW, I think that various episodes of TOS support both sides of Scotty.
He might be portrayed one week as a firm command-worthy officer (”Friday’s Child”), and then in another week, he can make a total ass of himself (”Who Mourns For Adonais?”). Then, of course, there is “The Trouble With Tribbles” and “By Any Other Name”. In both instances, he is used to various degrees of comedic foil—-long before he returned to that role in some of the films (the earliest being TWOK’s “wee bout” bit).
#137
Please note that I didn’t say Scotty should need to command, but should at least be competent enough to. I didn’t get that from Pegg’s portrayal as it was written.
#144 Also, Gary Mitchell is in there, somewhere.
How do you know he wasn’t on the Farragut or any of the other ships that ended up space dust above Vulcan?
Jack Black as Sybok – my guess
Closet.
True, I think they wrote Scotty poorly. When Scotty made a fool of himself it was normally because of two things:
A woman.
He’s been drinking.
But he always seemed to competent. And his idiosyncracies were consistent. I guess we all like what we like. And I didn’t like Pegg as Scotty.
#146—I understood what you meant. Other than Spock, by the second season of TOS, Scotty was pretty much the preferred person to leave in charge as far as Kirk was concerned.
I just think that, in 2258, he’s supposed to be a long way from being that guy. If memory serves, we don’t actually see that until 2267.
No Mudd, no Khan. Give us stange new worlds, etc.
Shoot me, if Jack Black is ever in Trek. It would be proof that the world is just a sick place not worth living in.
#149—”When Scotty made a fool of himself it was normally because of two things:
A woman.
He’s been drinking.”
Yep. That’s about right.
…unless he’s placed in the hands Shatner as a director….or the TNG writers…
:)
145. Closettrekker wrote:
From your issues with the character in ST09, it seems that your problem is really with the way the character was written for the film—rather than how he was casted.
I’m in total agreement with this. I went into the movie with only one thing I expected to hate and that was Simon Pegg’s Scotty. Surprisingly, his portrayal was perhaps the only aspect of the film I did not have any problems with. In fact the only line I would have cut, which the producers and studio seemed to adore, was “It’s Exciting” – whereas “I like this ship” would have been enough for Scotty.
Assuming Orci/Kurtman don’t continue giving Scotty marginal lines that attempt to force him to play the class clown, I think Pegg will actually be one of the bright spots of the rebooted franchise. I fully expect him to mature that character into the authoritative Scotty I know from The Apple, et al.
Thank the Lord!! I loath Jack Black
I’m fine with any characters like Cyrano Jones or Harry Mudd as long as its in service of a good story.
Story first, cameos second. They did a beautiful job with Pike without contriving the whole movie around him.
142. TrekkieJan:
That is true. “seeking out strange new worlds, new life-forms and civilizations” isn’t a plot in and of itself. BUT it IS a setting. That’s what I am asking for. I figured it was a given we would have a plot and an antagonist and or situation that gives our folks jeopardy and forces them into action and reveal more of their character.
I just want all of that to happen FAR from Earth out in deep space. And I want a diff plot than revenge and a different kind of villain.
I think it’s a simple and fair request.
#154—”In fact the only line I would have cut, which the producers and studio seemed to adore, was “It’s Exciting” – whereas “I like this ship” would have been enough for Scotty.”
Interesting, as my kids find that to be one of the more “quotable” lines from the film.
“I fully expect him to mature that character into the authoritative Scotty I know from The Apple, et al.”
I don’t know if Scotty would be Scotty is he was fully matured, but I think I know what you mean. He should develop into one of the more reliable members of the roster of Enterprise officers—-but still remain capable of having a “wee-bout” (that Dr. McCoy may have to pull him through) well into middle age.
I would like to announce that I am also not in negotiations to play Harry Mudd. I expect a headline.
The next trek film could feature alien go-go babes stealing Spock’s brain, which leads the Enterprise crew being taken over by the kids from “and the children shall lead,” and the only way to make things right is to exceed the Threshold barrier past warp 10, turn everyone into lizards, then use the transporter to [technobabble] the [technobabble] and reset the timeline so that Chris Pine’s Kirk can finally battle Khan, who is leading a group of … EVIL ALIEN NAZIS!
Working title is “Star Trek: Worst. Episode Ever.”
#158, yes that’s exactly what I meant. As for your kid’s reaction, I’m sure that is exactly why that line was there. They can’t rely exclusively on “I’m a doctor not a …”
As for character choices for the film, did we really NEED Checkov? Keep the basic character but make it more relevant. Let’s face it, in 1967 when he was introduced, it was the height of the cold war with the Soviet Union and the popularity of the Beatles. So, Trek’s producers made the pragmatic decision to introduce a Beatles-like young heartthrob as a nascent Kirk-in-training, who simultaneously expanded Roddenberry’s vision of diversity, by inviting the United States’ very nemesis into the crew – if we could have a Russian in the crew in 200 years, there truly was hope for mankind! Sadly the producers turned him into a walking stereotype of everything the American people perceived about the Soviets, boastful, impulsive, undisciplined.
Abrams would have done well to re-imagine this character, by leaving the canonically mis-placed boy-genius out, and re-introducing Checkov as a more relevant figure, especially since Pine is already a nascent young Kirk-in-training. Trek could have used another woman on the bridge for starters, with Uhura the only significant woman, beside the platinum blonde nurse Chappell who’s contribution to the series is limited to medical related stories and only adding to the number of WASPS on board. Make the Checkov character more culturally relevant. How about a Latina as navigator? Or an Indian, or if you really want to parallel the role as conceived in 1967, an young sexy Islamic – WOMAN! (Guess Paramount would have to cancel those screenings in Indonesia and the Middle East).
But we have Checkov now. They would do well to re-think nurse Chappell as a doctor (”for the last time Dr., I’m an internist, not a nurse”) to replace the position McCoy originally held under the chief medical officer when assigned to the Enterprise, and offer something other than a white platinum blonde Barbie doll. Yeoman Rand is probably a bad idea, given the origins of the naval Yeoman class and as a “secretary” for Kirk. Let’s face it folks she was only around for the first few episodes of the first season. There’s no real need for this character in the modern world, except for the female factor. I would opt for a significant new character instead who bridges some racial and/or gender demographic gap that doesn’t evoke a stereotype. Perhaps even a lesbian or gay male character.
Frankly I would not be disappointed if the producers decide to “surprise” us in this new unpredictable universe with the death of Checkov in the next film.
Presenting… The missing Shatner scene! (Um, one crazy version of it, anyway.)
“Spock, do yourself a favor: put aside logic, do what feels right.” Spock Prime said to Young Spock.
The younger Vulcan nodded, but added, “It is still… Difficult… to comprehend that James Kirk and I will become friends.”
Spock Prime reached into his pocket and retrieved a small disk, “I believe the correct human response would be, ‘Don’t take my word for it…’” And with that, a holographic image of an older James T. Kirk came into being.
“This death tape is being brought to you by PriceLine dot com. Bones, Spock. Since you are playing this tape, we will assume that I am dead.”
“What is a TAPE?” the younger Spock asked.
The hologram continued, “I probably died heroically, saving billions of lives in spectacular fashion, phasers blasting away on the Enterprise, and not alone on some backwater planet falling off a rusty bridge or something. Anyway, back to the reason you’re watching this. I assume that the tactical situation is critical and both of you are locked in mortal combat, debating canon. It means, Spock that you have control of the ship and are probably making the most difficult decisions of your career. ”
Kirk continued, “I can offer only one small piece of advice for whatever it’s worth: You can use every scrap of logic and knowledge you have to save the ship, but honestly, what did that ever do for you? Look, just temper your judgment by asking yourself, ‘What would Jim Kirk do?’ If you forget that, these attractive “WWJKD?” bracelets are available at William Shatner dot com.”
Spock-Prime sighed heavily.
Kirk went on, “If you can’t do this, seek out McCoy. Ask his advice, and, if you find it sound, take it. But if he starts the “Space is disease and danger” speech it’s best just to leave him alone, otherwise he’s likely to start jabbing you with a hypo, and that’s annoying as hell. Bones, you’ve heard what I just told Spock. Help him if you can, but remember he is the captain, his decisions must be followed, without question.
“Humph! I almost kept a straight face there. No, seriously Bones, do what you always do, badger the captain, especially in front of the crew. It’s not like you’re gonna do otherwise. Finally, if either of you ever travel back in time, please tell Picard to exit the Nexus a few days earlier and arrest Soren in ten-forward rather than timing it to the last freaking second, then maybe I… Well, it looks like my time is up, be sure to watch an all new season of Raw Nerve in the fall, and take care.”
As the hologram faded, Spock Prime said, “Forgive me. My logic is uncertain, where my friends are concerned.” He gave the Vulcan salute and added, “Since my customary farewell would seem oddly self-serving, I will only say, if you ever see a ship named “Botany Bay,” fire all phasers and destroy it immediately. Good Luck, Spock.”
before we debate the sequel, if you liked the new film go see it again! Let’s push domestic grosses well pass 300M!
#158 — Much as I love Chekov (and Walter and Anton) you’re right on the money. Killing Chekov would be powerful, show the dangers of space travel, and allow the introduction of a new character. Agreed that we need a new PERMANENT character on the bridge. STFC had Hawk but he was killed, STTWOK and STSFS had Saavike but she was gone with ST4. The reimaged trek could certainly factor in a new, permanent character who does not have to be “searching for what it means to be human” or a babe in a catsuit. You can have someone trying to find their way, very strong in some ways yet weak in others. The character in BSG: Razor was like that – -troubled past, drug problem but a great fighter, heroic, etc.
Trekkie Jan:
The point is that Star Trek doesn’t need a “villain.” The original series was NOT populated with “villains”—in fact there were very few, if you discount the Klingons and Romulans as “regular foils” for the Federation. (which is why I’m not against the idea of using either–preferably the Klingons—as “foils” in future films). A villain is not just an obstacle or a character who causes conflict–the Salt Vampire wasn’t really a “villain,” nor was Charles Evans, or the Horta… nor was Gary Seven or Balok or even the Tholians. There was no “villain” in City on the Edge of Forever, nor was there one in “The Doomsday Machine.” The fact is that most of the truly best episodes of ST did NOT feature real “villains” per se. (again, unless you count the Klingons and Romulans).
A “villain,” quite simply, is by definition a limited, nearly two dimensional creation. Now yes, in the hands of a skilled writer or a talented actor, a villain can be made a bit more than two dimensional—but even Khan was barely this—it’s really Montalban that made Khan a memorable character. But at any rate, too many villains and pretty soon you’ve reduced the entire feel of ST to a two dimensional status, and that’s wrong.
I’ll grant you, Star Trek is not great literature or great cinema in the truly artistic sense. But it’s an iconic thing that is more than just a two-dimensional good guys vs. bad guys formula. If you keep throwing villains in, though, that’s all you get.
I said what Star Trek needs is a CHALLENGE–which is the same thing that you were trying to say. But there’s more to challenges, in storytelling, than just one-dimensional or two-dimensional bad guys. Or even three-dimensional bad guys. Enough with that angle. There are other challenges, other ways to tell great science fiction stories—and Star Trek (the original series) always managed it well. There’s no reason why the movies can’t do it too.
If we are talking about adding characters….how is this difficult:
Nurse Chapel, in an on-screen roll.
A.) she deserves to be in all the new movies.
B.) we need more female main characters. At least one more…Chapel.
c.) Being a Nurse is one of the most important jobs, man or woman, out there available to everyone.
D.) Please, if Chapel is added…don’t just make her the “other girl”, aka…only there as a potential girlfriend. She’s got a f@#King job to do, and she’s good at it.
Oh, and Clooney as either Bob Wesley or Matt Decker.
Can people PLEASE stop comparing Joker and Penguin and Batman’s rogue gallery to Khan???
Batman’s villains have been around for decades and decades, and appearing REGULARLY and OFTEN in a MANY different mediums, including a medium (comic books) that by its very nature involves reinterpretation (because of the many different artists and sheer number of stories).
It is NOT the same thing! Batman and Joker are archetypes.
Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are archetypes.
Khan is a two off villain — a great villain, to be sure, but because he appeared in only two stories (a couple more if you add in the books) (and those two stories are great, to be sure) and he was played by a single actor, he’s not nearly on the same level of interpretation as Joker, Penguin, et al. Khan has the elements of being a great villain, and in TWOK he played off Kirk nicely, but there is no comparison between Batman/Joker (which has been going on for twice as long as Star Trek has been) and Kirk/Khan (which was, really, a fistfight in Space Seed and a battle of submarine wits in TWOK, and they never even occupied the same room).
It’s just not the same thing.
Oh, one more thing . . . can someone PLEASE explain to me how Ceti Alpha V and VI were confused? And why no one seemed to care when they THOUGHT planet that they left Khan on had blown up? I mean, this NEVER came up as they were researching the planetary system for possible use of the Genesis device — I mean, the level of research they were putting into finding a workable planet, and none of that EVER came up in their findings? Can no one count past five in starfleet?
TWOK is my favorite movie, but for work I studied the story structure of the movie (the story structure is nearly FLAWLESS, btw) and this plot hole suddenly shone down on me like a light from heaven . . . or Hades, as the case may be, since I will forever be unable to watch it without that plot hole being front and center.
~ Ben
I’m open to just about anything but Jack Black in the next Trek would ruin the movie for me.
#165: Perfectly written and exactly correct.
The way I see it, the trilogy will show how nuKirk&Co. become the kind of crew we saw in TOS. ST09 is “The start”, ST011 is “On the way”, the 3rd movie will be “The Arrival”.
And because they have still a lot to learn, it would make perfect sense to confront them with a galactic con man/smuggler/space pirate, who could be called Harry Mudd – or Cyrano Jones or Joe Smith, whatever. The character should be a bit more sinister, not simply played for laughs. (No Jack Black, please – Tom Hanks!! Or another character actor). “Harry” could even be a bit Han Solo-ish, maybe sacrifice himself at the end of the movie…
The Romulan Commander from “Balance of Terror”? Good idea, but no simple remake! Throw in a bit of “Enterprise Incident” and let Wynona (or somebody else) play THAT commander. (Of course, it’s Kirk who will have to seduce her this time, not Spock. Or else there would have to be a mud-wrestling scene between her and Zoe Saldana in the movie, and who wants to see THAT? ;-)
167 – Ben, some novels have tried to explain that issue; what I came up with is that Ceti Alpha 5 and 6 were very close to each other, maybe a double planet, Earth-Moon type of deal, and Khan’s line about “the shock shifted the orbit of this planet” could be interpreted as the planet shifting significantly in the solar system. I know it’s just a movie mistake but that’s what I came up with.
#165 – Randall. Agree with many of your points (which is why I used the term “antagonist,” and not “villain.” An antagonist isn’t necessarily even evil – just someone whose needs or actions are counter to the protagonist’s.
I agree that other obstacles or challenges can make for interesting plots, but in the end I think most people find these most satisfying when personified – in a human or coded-human character – especially in an “action film.”
One think I think the television episodes did well was having obstacles and challenges that weren’t always personified – but I don’t think this always works in a movie. I’d love to be proven wrong!
Count me in for a villainless sequel. I’m so sick of villains I could spit. In fact, I might just go and do that. Mudd *could* be perfect in such a movie. *Could* be. *Might* even make it as a major character. Depends on the script.
Robert Gillis, loved your script thar. :P I am, however, in no way interested in killing off bridge characters just for gimmickry’s sake. Hawk in STFC *was* original… but also depthless and dumb. Valeris was a tack-on who drew attention away from the characters I actually cared about. Even Savvik, the movie-original who came closest to succeeding as a character, never gelled together through her endless recasts and aimless character arc.
See also the all-but-forgotten names of Decker (who can be described in one word: “tool”), Ilia (whose sum contribution to Trek came to “oath of celibacy”), and poor old Xon, killed in a transporter accident under the name “Sonak.”
If we’re going to ruin the next trek film with harry Mudd, let’s go all the way and include jar-Jar Binks:
‘Space: der final frontier. Oh, NOOOOO! Derse are der voyages ta der starship Enterprise. Huh? Her ongoin’ mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life-forms and new civilizations; to boldly go where no one has gone before. Ooh! Mesacky icky goosa!
JJ: So what ideas do we have for Trek 2?
Orci: Eh, we could do a cross-over with Transformers.
Kurtzman: The Klingons–we haven’t done them for a while. They could have tattoos this time!
Orci: Yeah, and Khan–he could team up with the Klingons.
JJ: How about a good, original science fiction story?
Orci & Kurtzman: Nah, that would be too challenging, and our 15-year-old target audience wouldn’t understand it.
JJ: Okay, maybe we should go with Mudd after all… he could travel through time and create another alternate reality, and let’s work in the Joker and the Riddler somehow too.
173 – James (re: Decker “tool”) LMAO! But you’re right. All the additions were ultimately brushed away…
Well, they can’t act as if all that drama with Nero didn’t happen so some “no hard feelings or whatever” interaction with the Romulans would be in order.
Too bad they already played the time travel card b/c a Guardian of Forever story would be great. I think thye also wiped out the whole Mirror Universe thing, too.
So what next?
Omniscient beings are a buzz kill so no Qs or Trelanes. Ditto for civilization-controlling super computers.
I like Scotty’s little friend but please, no more funny little sidekick creatures. Keep that guy but maybe have him be super smart and more serious than Scotty. A Horta would be ok. But no more giant scary monsters with heads that look like deformed female genitalia. What’s the point? “Oh, look! A planet populated with Godzillas. Let’s set up a base there!” Why colonize a planet with humanoid-eating creatures and totally mess with their food chain? Move on to the next planet with a more manageable ecosystem and no carnivorous armour-plated giant crab spiders. Mugato have a pass in the scary monster department. They can stay. Ok, and salt vampires can stay, too.
I say Trek needs more Gorn. Real Gorn, not CGI Gorn. Lots and lots of Gorn.
So, did everyone just forget that Harry Mudd was an exploitative space pimp.
He’s not a good guy. And i don’t think he should be a fun loving rascal who dopes women up and sells them to creepy a-hole miners.
The only reason to use him would be some misplaced sense of irony, like…look at the weird story lines that passed for forward thinking back in 66.
Mudd would have to represent how far we still have to go in the 23rd century.
175: Mazzer: Beautiful.
161/RD
“Sadly the producers turned him into a walking stereotype of everything the American people perceived about the Soviets, boastful, impulsive, undisciplined”
I lived in Russia 10 years, and studied them and the language since childhood, and I think ‘boastful, impulsive and undisciplined” is quite accurate as a surface description of Russians. In hindsight, those can be considered endearing traits as well.
Koenig’s roots are in that part of the world, and much of that came from his own portrayal.
Bottom line. Ask yourselves, ‘What would Rick Berman Do?
Then do the opposite of that, and you’ll be fine.
Oh, and could Captain Robau somehow have survived? We don’t actually see him die, just his transponder dies. Yeah, and Nero’s spear missed vital organs and blood vessels and they thought Robau was dead and threw him on the rubbish heap. Robau wakes up and drags himself to an escape pod–taking out a couple of Romulans on the way with his bare hands–and pops out right before the red matter explodes. Yay!
Or maybe he has a twin brother? Please?
Despite very little screen time Captain Robau ranks and one of the best Trek captains EVER.
Nope. You’re all wrong. Have Tom Hanks reprise his role as “Captain Miller” from Saving Private Ryan, only have Hanks play the Romulan Commander.
When you play someone against type, it’s almost guaranteed to work. Go for the gusto, guys. This will work!
#161—”As for character choices for the film, did we really NEED Checkov?”
Storywise, there certainly wasn’t a need for Chekov…but there is a general expectation nonetheless. In TOS, he may have been little (if at all) more significant than Rand or Chapel, but the film series made him a true regular who is expected to be there on the bridge (even when assigned to another ship in TWOk, he eventually makes his way aboard the Enterprise–manning the weapons console).
“…if we could have a Russian in the crew in 200 years, there truly was hope for mankind!?…Abrams would have done well to re-imagine this character.”
But that is only part of the reasoning for introducing a Russian character in the second season (at least according to the admittedly somewhat revisionist Gene Roddenberry in later years). The Russians ( The Soviet Union, which was multi-ethnic, to be more accurate) were the first to put a satellite into space. They also put the first man into space. Current irrelevancy of Cold-War politics aside, I think it is only fitting that people of Eurasian descent should continue to be depicted at the forefront of space exploration (Starfleet) in the 23rd Century—if for no other reason than as a deserving tribute to the likes of Yuri Gagarin.
And of course, since a 17 year-old Chekov in 2258 is really a canon gaffe to begin with, it wouldn’t be necessary for Abrams to “re-imagine” anyone. Since Chekov should be about 13 years old anyway, it would have been perfectly okay to depict another navigator period, without any reimagining whatsoever.
But I have to think that even members of the audience only passingly familiar with Star Trek would immediately ask, “But where’s the Russian guy?”.
“How about a Latina as navigator? Or an Indian, or if you really want to parallel the role as conceived in 1967, an young sexy Islamic – WOMAN!”
In fairness, nothing about including Chekov in ST09 really precludes including more characters of diverse ethnicity in future stories. There are other engineers, science officers, even other doctors (like M’Benga in TOS), etc.
And we have seen starship captains now in Star Trek films from both the Indian sub-continent (TVH) and what we know as “the Middle East” (ST09). Let’s keep this in perspective. Even in the 1960’s, the bridge crew of the Enterprise was pretty diverse—an American from the Midwest, a half-alien, a woman of African origin, an Asian, and a Eurasian. Outside the bridge, you’ll find regulars that include a deep Southerner and a Scotsman.
And although he only appeared in one episode, there is even a medical doctor aboard with a possible African or polynesian type background. I don’t think that diversity is an issue at all, to be quite honest.
@183
What I meant to say was, Captain Robau escapes before he gives the red matter permission to explode.
Total. Badass.
I think Grundberg lacks the energy to play Mudd. Casting by resemblance should always be tertiary at best, IMO.
#178: “Mudd would have to represent how far we still have to go in the 23rd century.”
Isn’t that what he has _always_ represented? Mudd was never presented as a “good guy” in Star Trek, he’s a troublesome criminal proving to the audience that while the Federation might be groovy, it still has problem children.
Anyway, either way, I think this creative team could never do him justice … subtlety, clever dialogue, and wry social commentary don’t seem to be anywhere on their list of strong suits. More movies with scenery-chewing villains are probably their best bet for their trilogy.
#12: “Awww, come on! Jack Black, for Mudd! It’s in the eyes, he’s PERFECT!!! Roger C. Carmel would be good too, but I just don’t see it.”
Assuming you aren’t kidding, Roger C. Carmel died in 1986. And for anyone clamoring for Stanley Adams to replay Cyrano Jones, actor Adams died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound in 1977.
–
Question: Why do so many people keep clamoring for a revisit to old characters/ situations from the original series??? If TREK is going to succeed it must stand on its own merits and go forward, not revisit the past. So… No Khan, no Mudd, no Jones, no Kang, no Trelane, no Koloth, no Doomsday Machine, no, no, no… let’s move forward!
As to killing off Chekov. I think that would be a mistake, (btw, RD, check your spelling.. it is Chekov, Chapel).
That said, and I really don’t know how to do this, as I agree with Christopher Bennett, TREK needs to pay more attention to its female character… what I mean is, how, in the space of two hours are we to give significant moments to such a large cast? … and yeah, we should introduce a Latino character… incidentally, TOS did a relatively good job of being inclusive in its first season (”Shore Leave,” for example) and yes, (no groaning now), but a gay character as well (nor do I have an answer how to do that without pointing it out in a “false” bang-you-over the head way of doing it).
Here’s the real problem in regards to inclusivity. Everybody has their own favorite character; everybody has a dream list of who and what kind of people they want to see represented in the TREK universe; and everybody has their own agenda in regards to seeing this done. Everybody wants to be able to see themselves and how they fit in in this optimistic future that TREK promotes
Problem is, what can be done in a two-hour movie is pretty minimal. This is where TREK far outshines its big screen sibling… on in another sense, the non-canonical fictional series published by Pocket Books (oops, wrong thread).
“Jack Black guest stars as Harry Mudd in “Star Trek 2: Jumping the Shark”.
#26: “I don’t know about an actor to play him, but I like the idea of bringing Harry Mudd in. Even if it’s just as a secondary character. Although it’s interesting, since Carmel played Mudd differently in his two appearances. Would a new Mudd be some kind of third vision of the galactic rogue?
Uh, make that three appearances, if you count TAS’ “Mudd’s Passion,” where Carmel provided the voice for the animated incarnation of Harcourt Fenton Mudd.
But I quibble.
138. Charles H. Root, III… “Consider Children of Men. A science fiction film that is much more emotionally engaging and supremely more successful artistically than ST:XI/2K9″
And one of the mostly absolutely bleak movies ever made. Dear God, I wanted to go get drunk after watching that gloom-and-doom opus. Were any of the main cast left alive at the end of that movie? Even “28 Days Later” was more upbeat!
#188: “Question: Why do so many people keep clamoring for a revisit to old characters/ situations from the original series??? If TREK is going to succeed it must stand on its own merits and go forward, not revisit the past. So… No Khan, no Mudd, no Jones, no Kang, no Trelane, no Koloth, no Doomsday Machine, no, no, no… let’s move forward!”
A nice idea, but the filmmakers have already decided to move backward. What’s more, rather than doing a traditional reboot, they decided to do a convoluted alternate-universe quasi-reboot that (according to their own words) keeps them tied into certain key events in canon (the arrival of certain threats, etc), establishes Enterprise as still-existing backstory, etc.
They _chose_ not to move forward, and they _chose_ to box themselves into a weird kind of quasiboot where they have to constantly consider canon even if they’re not obliged to repeat it.
The fans are just speculating within that box, painting within that canvas.
If the filmmakers had just grown a pair and done a full-on reboot (or just literally moved forward) I think we’d see a lot less of the “let’s see character X from episode Y” type chatter.
132. Closettrekker-
“I am not a fan of any of Jack Black’s films, but I’m not a particular fan of Winona Ryder or Tyler Perry’s work either—and neither actor’s inclusion in ST09 had any adverse impact upon my ability to enjoy the film. To make such a blanket statement as to suggest that he couldn’t possibly pull of any character who has a place in the Star Trek Universe seems a bit much. The possibilities within that universe are far too many to say that, IMO.”
I agree, it’s awfully reactionary to simply state you’ll “boycott” a Trek movie because, say, Adam Sandler makes a cameo in it (note: I really do hate Adam Sandler) as opposed to, say, finding out Eddie Murphy will be the main bad guy in the film a la Richard Pryor in Superman III (which was terrible — and for a minute Eddie Murphy was considered for a major role in Star Trek IV which would also’ve been terrible). Tyler Perry, as Closet mentioned, made an appearance in the current film — and not in drag! — and the movie survived. I don’t have a problem with a quick-and-brief appearance by Harry Mudd in the next film’s opening sequence but seeing him as the main heavy — in a movie — kind of pushes the bounds of reason. In “Mudd’s Women” Harry was a nuisance, it was mere happenstance that he became the headache to Kirk that he was. I can imagine him becoming someone else’s problem in this new timeline. If not, he’d remain a mere footnote. The next Khan, however? Never.
And should there be a next Khan? Or even *the* Khan in the next movie or two? I don’t believe so. I’d rather imagine new-Kirk’s Enterprise being far from the Botany Bay and thus not awakening Khan and crew in this new reality. Who knows? Maybe new-timeline Picard revives Khan in the new-timeline 24th century? I guess we’ll see in the new-timeline alternative TNG show CBS launches sometime over the next few years (my prediction — networks rarely have new ideas).
#167—”…this plot hole suddenly shone down on me like a light from heaven . . . or Hades, as the case may be, since I will forever be unable to watch it without that plot hole being front and center.”
How about the fact that of all the people who could have beamed down from the USS Reliant and found the SS Botany Bay by mistake—it just happened to be someone that Khan recognized from the Enterprise?
Or how about the extraordinary set of coincidences that result in James T. Kirk, who is assigned to a desk job by the way, being aboard the Enterprise (which happens to be “the only ship in the quadrant”) with a bunch of cadets (sufficiently handicapping him), at just the right time and place for Khan (who just happens to have escaped from exile, commandeered yet another starship, and terrorized the facility which just so happens to be run by the former lover and “love child” of Jim Kirk in order to procur their creation) to exact revenge upon him?
And why doesn’t Kirk order the transporter to be set on “maximum dispersion” in order to beam the armed Genesis device out into space and render it harmless, as he did to Nomad in “The Changeling”? Or at least attempt/suggest it?
But that’s the only plot hole/contrivance in TWOK that bothers you? :)
I rarely even think about it anymore. Everything good about it just seems to make up for all of that. It’s still, IMO, one of the best “B-movies” ever made.
Mudd would be a lot of fun as a comic relief sort of character and a nice call-back to TOS, but would NEVER make a good “villian”.
I think it’s safe to say – by and large – people want Trek to move forward and not rehash previous plot lines.
Couldn’t agree more.
194
“But that’s the only plot hole/contrivance in TWOK that bothers you?”
“I rarely even think about it anymore. Everything good about it just seems to make up for all of that. It’s still, IMO, one of the best “B-movies” ever made.”
Great point, CT.
Maybe the “film stock” is a bit B-grade, but the film itself?!
Please.
If we were to get hung up on side dish elements which seem out of place or illogical in film — especially sci-fi film — then we would have to trash every movie ever made. There would be no film worth watching!! Isn’t it wonderful enough we got a movie as great as TWOK?
#194: “I rarely even think about it anymore. Everything good about it just seems to make up for all of that. It’s still, IMO, one of the best “B-movies” ever made.”
Absolutely, and that’s the trick: kickass movies sweep you up and satisfy you, and deserve no nitpicking. Doesn’t matter if there are nits to pick; the film earns the nits, owns them.
Mediocre films, on the other hand, are meat for the jackals, and justly so … their nits earn the picking, because after the lens flare fades, it’s the only way left to enjoy the movie ;)
(and an addendum to 198, where I was over-snarky: I do NOT consider Star Trek 2009 to be a mediocre film; I consider it a pretty darn GOOD film, which just happens to be mediocre Star Trek – at best)
since the Klingons are obviously PO’d about getting the snot kicked out of them by teh Narada… lets start there.
let’s say they strike back across the nuetral zone with a vengence and blame the Federation, since Nero probably asked them about Spock also.
conflicts driven and very battle oriented.
also, as a sidebar the next 2 movies should be during the Big E’s Shakedown ( where they learn the engine room sucks, so they remodel it into something that looks not like a FORD plant)and involve PIKE in the plots and culminate with him getting blitzed out and ending up as “mr light blinker” in the chair of doom.
we could also see a glimpse of Gary Mitchell and maybe Caroll Marcus.
Pikes injury should be while saving cadets in some great climactic battle sequence in the third movie, which ends with Kirk recieving his 5 year mission orders
oh, and….
the Klingon seroius in tone Klingons, not stupid ST 3,5 Klingons.
Please, NO Jack Black in a Star Trek movie. Cele3bs with that level of recognizability tend to jerk you right out of the story / suspended disbelief. This is why ST09 was so effective (when “Mr.” Medea was not on screen).
#192—”If the filmmakers had just grown a pair and done a full-on reboot (or just literally moved forward), I think we’d see a lot less of the “let’s see character X from episode Y” type chatter.”
First of all, I think this kind of “chatter” is quite harmless and (evidently) fun for alot of fans.
As for the “what if game”, if the producers had done a “full on reboot”, I think it is safe to say that they would have alienated alot of the fanbase. By tying into previous continuity, they have offered an olive-branch to the canonista community which has garnered significant approval from within that segment of the fanbase. And in doing so, they correctly deduced that the mainstream moviegoers couldn’t care less about whether or not it’s a full-on reboot, and they still managed to achieve the best benefits of a reboot—-which is that the fates of the characters and the fictional universe are no longer sealed.
“Moving forward” means surrendering the asset of the iconic original characters.
I’d like to see the new movie be about something other than:
Bad Guy encounters Enterprise
Bad Guy has super weapon
Bad Guy is heading towards Earth (usually for no reason)
Bad Guy hates (insert Trek Captain here) because (insert reason here).
Bad Guy gets butt kicked by Enterprise
Bad Guy deploys the ridiculously long arming device to take the Enterprise out with him.
Bad Guy sets his timer (which reads out everthing in English) to 4 to 10 minutes which give Enterprise crew just enough time to re-align (insert jargon here).
Bad Guy dies as the Enterprise escapes with 1 second left on the clock.
I mean, the premise of Star Trek, when it started, was about amazing discoveries and exploring the human condition. The new movie was fun, but another one in the same vein would be the easy way out. If these new writers want to “strut their stuff” they’ll need to write something that will really take us where no man/one has gone before. I dare them to write an exciting story without the use of phasers and torpedo’s. We’ll find out in 2011!
I think the best villian they could ressurect would be the M-5 Computer and Daystrom… a little bit of modernization would make it one hell of a movie.
@166
I respectfully disagree about Chapel being a rival for Spock’s affections. Vulcan men react poorly to being chased by women. As competent as she was as a nurse, she was far too emotional and illogical for Spock.
Even under the influence of pon farr and the Psi 2000 intoxication he rejected her. Recall the scene in sickbay regarding Spock’s blood’s compatibility with his father’s:
Chapel(rather pathetically): “It has human blood elements, too.”
Spock(without even acknowledging Chapel’s presence) “Those can be filtered out.”
Damn. Shut down.
Chapel left a promising career to sign on the Enterprise, chasing after Roger Corby. What woman shows up at a guy’s quarters with soup–a guy who has shown absolutely no interest in her at all?
Not attractive. And kinda stalker-ish. Just sayin’.
If they add any more women from TOS it should be kickass little Helen Noel. A true match for Kirk.
157. I Am Morg Not Eymorg (missed this earlier)
““seeking out strange new worlds, new life-forms and civilizations” isn’t a plot in and of itself. BUT it IS a setting. That’s what I am asking for. I figured it was a given we would have a plot and an antagonist and or situation that gives our folks jeopardy and forces them into action and reveal more of their character.
I just want all of that to happen FAR from Earth out in deep space. And I want a diff plot than revenge and a different kind of villain.
I think it’s a simple and fair request.”
This all sounds just about perfect to me! :) And I’m sure our guys can pull this off – even if they bring back a few familiar “faces” with fun, exciting – or frightening – new twists!
@200
Gary Mitchell! Hallsyeah! The douche you love to hate.
And Carol Marcus without the whole, bland “my high school BFF’s mom” vibe. Another thing, who has an unplanned pergnancy in the 23rd century?
138. Charles H. Root, III –
“@ 61. The Original Animated Next Generation Deep Space Voyager Enterprise – The real reason for the reboot was to make a crap load of money. If ir didn’t make money they would have shut down the franchise.”
I always hate these kind of statements. What are you doing here? What universe do you live in? Do you *really* think Gene Roddenberry was some super-human idealist who wasn’t looking for a way to feed his family every week but some principle-driven demi-god whose purpose in life was to create the fantasy universe we all know and love? Roddenberry, like any other person his age in whatever line of work they happened to be in then or now, was trying to make money. He needed money so much, in fact, he withdrew day-to-day involvement in the show to push merchandise under his Lincoln Enterprises company.
Is this deplorable? Is it somehow wrong or shameful? No. He was doing what he needed to do to provide for his family. Suggesting anything otherwise is being naive. Again, unless you have daddy issues, this isn’t anything to fault the man for. And, yes, every person involved in Trek after Roddenberry has also been looking at how much that venture was going to make them. It’s foolish to think that all the money this new movie — or any Trek movie — went directly into one person’s pocket. For Paramount and CBS and Viacom and whoever else, Star Trek has been seen as a way to collect a paycheck — just as you look at your own job as a way to pay your bills, eat your meals, woo your women, etc.
I don’t understand the naive minds that assume that just because Star Trek may espouse a few liberal-minded ideals that its’ creators and inheiritors are all living in some sort of Greek ideal Olympus completely removed from the things which keep the rest of us 21st century blokes tied down to the capitalist system. We are products of our time! Do we want something more than this? Hell yes! But we are still bound to this way of life. If you want to condemn people and say, for example, Berman and Braga destroyed Trek because they had to feed their families then you are incredibly naive, my friend. Most people work because of the inheirant benefits, not because they want to further some futuristic idealist agenda. Condemning Star Trek *because* it made money is plain and simply stupid. It debuted as a TV show — they don’t survive if they don’t make money. They don’t spin off into movies if it’s not believed money can be made. America is still based on capitalism. Do we blame Roddenberry for wishing for a future without money yet still collecting a paycheck at the end of the week? What is extraordinary, commendable and important is that despite this fact Roddenberry was able to espouse his principles of tolerance, idealism and the perfection of human evolution through progress in such a money-driven industry. This is the core of the show’s fantasy: a future in which one no longer must struggle to support a family and way of life. A future where relationships no longer hinge upon whether or not that big paycheck ever shows up.
#207 “Another thing, who has an unplanned pergnancy in the 23rd century?”
Someone who’s dating Kirk! His seed obviously stunned and overpowered the birth control.
#209—-Lmao!
That’s a powerful seed…Too bad it wasn’t strong enough to keep David from being killed by a two-bit Klingon nobody.
It’s a little known fact that the original draft of Space Seed was in fact about Kirk getting Carol preggers.
I kid.
Star Trek 2 should be the doomsday machine, Khan, or Kor, Kang , Koloth story. Be nice to see these guys again. Star Trek 3 Guardian of forever or the dr. severen group from “the way to eden”. Also nice. Or at least a story involving the preservers.
Vin Diesel as General Chang.
Box. Office. Magic.
Moby as Korob and Sigourney Weaver as Sylvia.
Genius!
#208: Yeah, sometimes you had to wonder what Gene was smoking when he came up with stuff like “there’s no such thing as money in our time.” If anyone ever thinks that is going to happen I have some lakefront property on planet Vulcan to sell you (that would be Vulcan Prime, btw).
Sometimes I think the guy just liked to say things to ellicit a response out of people (or perhaps more, to make them think), like many people in here surely do on occasion (myself included).
203. Chain of Command –
“I’d like to see the new movie be about something other than:
Bad Guy encounters Enterprise
Bad Guy has super weapon
Bad Guy is heading towards Earth (usually for no reason)
Bad Guy hates (insert Trek Captain here) because (insert reason here).
Bad Guy gets butt kicked by Enterprise
Bad Guy deploys the ridiculously long arming device to take the Enterprise out with him.
Bad Guy sets his timer (which reads out everthing in English) to 4 to 10 minutes which give Enterprise crew just enough time to re-align (insert jargon here).
Bad Guy dies as the Enterprise escapes with 1 second left on the clock.”
Don’t forget:
Bad guy has one-on-one punch-em-up with Good Guy resulting in Bad Guy’s plunge off a precipice into some seemingly bottomless void (it was done in ST3 with Kruge, INS with Ru’afo, NEM with the Reman Viceroy and now in the current film with Ayel).
I alaways hated Harry Mudd, what a dumb character. I’m in my thirties, so don’t dump on me as being a teenager hating on old school Star Trek.
213. THX-1138 –
“Vin Diesel as General Chang.
Box. Office. Magic.”
God I hope that’s a joke!
When did these HarryMudd/Jack BlackRumors start?
I just heard about them today .
215. MC1 Doug –
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Roddenberry was some kind of charlatan and we’ve all, as fans of his creation, been duped by a particularly saavy Hollywood bigwig. I think his heart was in the right place and his dream of a moneyless future was laudable and something we should share. Is that idealized future right around the corner? Probably not. Even in Trek canon that future only came about at huge cost — World War 3 and billions of deaths. It may actually happen but, like what has been postulated, only after some serious upheaval.
But for now, for right now, we have this system. Roddenberry may have been against this system but he certainly was a product (and maybe a victim) of this system.
Seriously, some of you really need to seek professional psychological help. Paramount did not make this big-budget blockbuster and potential tent-pole movie just so that you could re-live your childhoods and see remakes of 40 year old TV episodes. All involved did us a great favor by reinvigorating a (frankly) dead franchise. They made not only a VERY good film, but a VERY good Trek movie (sorry #199). I trust their judgement and believe they will push this forward, rather than backward. This is a new Star Trek, yet familiar by design.
Your childhood is long gone. As is the OS, as beloved and special as it was. Mr Doohan is gone. Mr Kelley is gone. Mr and Mrs Roddenberry are gone. God bless all of the above, may they rest in peace with our love. But can we move on?
I find it ironic that some fans of Star Trek, one of the most positive, optomistic, and forward-looking franchises ever created choose to look only backward. Just my opinion, of course.
207. girl6… “Another thing, who has an unplanned pergnancy in the 23rd century?”
Why do you assume it was unplanned? Carol wanted a baby, Kirk obliged and “did what you asked, I stayed away.”
Izbot
I am shocked that you would think I am joking about Vin Diesel. Especially after reading the very next post and seeing my suggestion for Korob.
Dolph Lundgren as Cloud William.
Prepare for Oscar nominations.
220. Izbot – June 9, 2009
“But for now, for right now, we have this system. Roddenberry may have been against this system but he certainly was a product (and maybe a victim) of this system.”
I should’ve said ‘maybe a victim but also one who clearly benefitted from this system’.
223. THX-1138 – June 9, 2009
“Dolph Lundgren as Cloud William.”
Okay, I can see that.
Oh, and Brian Kirsch:
The whole go**amned thing is a look backward. Ya’ know, Kirk, Spock, Bones? Looking forward would imply setting it after the events of Nemesis.
@ #219 -
Probably when some middle-aged “fanboy” started it on some website/forum/blog. This internet thingy is cool, but it’s also dangerous. Conjecture, fantasy, rumour all become “truth” because of the “I read it online, it must be true” mentality.
221. Brian Kirsch –
“Your childhood is long gone.”
Eep! What?! Nooooooo!!
#225
E Plebnista, bro’.
Samuel L. Jackson as Dr. Richard Daystrom.
“I am motherf**king perfect. You are motherf**king perfect. We are motherf**king perfect.”
227. Brian Kirsch –
“@ #219 -
Probably when some middle-aged “fanboy” started it on some website/forum/blog. This internet thingy is cool, but it’s also dangerous. Conjecture, fantasy, rumour all become “truth” because of the “I read it online, it must be true” mentality.”
You’re right and many of us who’ve haunted this site since the start have seen our share of ridiculous rumor-starting, mostly over at Ain’t It Cool That I Lied To You News. One dude once dumped his own spec script for a Trek reboot in increments right here in the comment section of an article! We heard about Tom Cruise being cast as Capt Pike, George Lucas and Steven Spielberg making cameos in full alien make-up, all sorts of feverish fanboy fantasies — none of which came to pass. AICN ’spoiled’ the movie every couple weeks with a script leak that turned out to be bogus. It all ceases to be “truth” on opening day, though.
although im a huge TOS fan, i dont want to see any more old villans and characters popping up. What i want now is a brand new enemy/threat for the next film. something different and maybe some very thought provoking. I dont want time travel, klingons, romulans, khan, harry mudd or anything.
this is time for a fresh start so lets have some fresh exciting adventures and ideas.
Greg
UK
229. THX-1138 –
“#225
E Plebnista, bro’.”
You’re right. Lundgren already has the garbled english down pat. A perfect choice.
#185 – Closettrekker wrote:
In fairness, nothing about including Chekov in ST09 really precludes including more characters of diverse ethnicity in future stories.
Agreed. However, there are only so many “key” characters one can include in the time allotted. Trek had a lot of memorable day-players but none developed much depth simply because there was no time. It’s not so much about having a diverse crew as it is a diverse recurring main character who does more than press some buttons at the direction of someone else.
And we have seen starship captains now in Star Trek films … what we know as “the Middle East” (ST09).
Which starship captain was that?
Either way, it’s not about adding more peripheral characters, which simply occur out of necessity.
Even in the 1960’s, the bridge crew of the Enterprise was pretty diverse—an American from the Midwest, a half-alien, a woman of African origin, an Asian, and a Eurasian. Outside the bridge, you’ll find regulars that include a deep Southerner and a Scotsman.
In the 1960’s simply having a woman on the bridge of a military vessel was diverse.
As for the diversity you propose existed, all I can say is Google “Star Trek” and “racism” and you’ll see there is much discussion on the topic. There are entire lecture courses at universities on the subject. Either way, the diversity hardly holds up by today’s standards of what represents the future I hope to see.
First, aliens don’t count especially when they are being played by obviously white males (and are a caucasian half-human to boot). Kirk and McCoy are both white male Americans. Only in the 60s and this last US election did it matter if you were from the South. Scotty was a white male European, as was Chekov (Eurasian! LOL). These guys could all get into the most restrictive golf clubs in the US at the time. Sulu was the only male from a another race, and Uhura was the only significant woman and the only other person of another race. Add Chapel and Rand to the mix and you have some stereotypical white females (so lets not count Rand). The total count for the 8 regulars is: 5 white men of Anglo-Saxon descent (Spock is a cheat), 2 woman (one white, one black) and 1 Asian man. Or, 6 men, 2 women. Or, 6 caucasians, 1 Asian-descent, 1 African-descent.
No matter how you slice it, this is not the most diverse group by today’s standards. Some things you can’t change. Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Sulu & Uhura, they are iconic. Checkov wasn’t in the first season and I didn’t miss him then, so if this is a true prequel … frankly, I don’t think even if audiences wondered where the Russian guy was, they wouldn’t care. But he’s there now. Chapel is the only “regular” we haven’t seen. So there’s an opportunity to go with something other than blonde and Anglo. However, she doesn’t leave sickbay for the most part, so there’s very little chance for us to get to know her – not a good character for a movie. What is needed is another senior bridge or engineering person, or take a note from TNG, a security person (who survives). TNG had 10 main regular characters in the first season and that was too much. Trek is sort of stuck with 6 and Chekov & Chapel sort of demonstrate 8 can work … the question to ask is, are they the best two to add to the main story?
Whatever they do, it would be best to take some attention off of Checkov in favor of a new character, or otherwise. And the less we see of Scotty’s Alien sidekick the better (kids notwithstanding). Alien’s are always difficult to add to the mix in a major role, unless they are a primary focus and we can really get to know them in order to identify them.
But Closet, I suspect you are right and we are stuck with the boy wonder. In which case, Paramount really needs to make the most of him if AJ’s feedback is indicative of anything. Hit the “Eurasians” (LOL) hard with an intense Marketing campaign!
All the casting rumors at this point are either merely fan-wanking or AICN fan-baiting geared toward enraging people — sort of like graffiti taggers. Does anyone appreciate graffiti taggers? No. Does anyone appreciate AICN fan-baiters? No. They both exist solely for their own edification, it’s their own personal joke that no one else gets but that they fight frickin’ hee-larious.
Obviously no sequel script yet exists, no casting is being done. This sounds like the same crap I read about following the success of The Dark Knight when some douchebag ’spoiled’ the ‘fact’ on AICN that Cher was being cast as the new Catwoman in the next film — a mere few weeks after TDK’s debut. We’ve got a long way to go before we hear anything about casting for the sequel.
@ #226
You must have missed my whole point, which doesn’t surprise me. This film was, and is, a rebirth, a restart, a reboot. NOT a rehash. NOT a remake. The core characters remain intact, but their adventures and destinies have yet to be told. And I for one would much rather see that, than some remake or rehash of a TV episode written 40 years ago.
In the next movie why can’t we have the new crew come up against some space entity that scares the CRAP out of them? Red shirts dying everywhere, people missing limbs, dogs and cats living together……you get the idea!
234-
Cap. Robau was born in Sagua La Grande Cuba, but raised in the Middle East.
-Memory Alpha
Have them go up against a reptile species that suffer from constant flatulence…..I can hear the title of the movie now:
Gorn With The Wind
@ 191. Thorny – Children of Men was indeed bleak, but did you see the last 30 seconds of the film? The scene where the pregnant girl is rescued and there is renewed hope?
If you left this film disturbed and wanting to get drunk, it would seem that it worked quite well on an emotional level. A few BSG episodes had a similar effect on me.
@ 208. Izbot – Talk about hitting an emotional nerve. Geez, are you okay?
It has been discussed countless times on this website that this film had to perform financially or Paramount would pull the plug. I’m not sure why you would “hate” this sort of discussion
What I said is nothing new. My statement did not assign a value judgment based on the film makers financial aspirations.
I certainly didn’t mention Berman and Braga. You did.
But since you raise the issue it’s always been my opinion that Berman and Braga saved Star Trek much like how architect Sebastian Tauriello saved Frank Lloyd Wright’s prairie home masterpiece, The Darwin D. Martin House.
I encourage you to go back and re-read what I wrote.
No more TOS characters!
#238. O.K., First: the official dossier only says he was born in Cuba.
http://trekmovie.com/2008/11/28/intel-launches-new-star-trek-contest-site/
Second: Only Bob Orci’s off-camera comments suggest that he may have been raised in the Middle East.
http://trekmovie.com/2008/12/09/exclusive-interview-roberto-orci-on-all-the-latest-with-star-trek-and-more/
Third, the actor himself is Pakistani.
None of this is Canon as far as the film is concerned. The closest thing we get to it is the dossier from the official website which suggests if anything he is Cuban of Latin decent. Since that is speculative as well, with no proof of his racial heritage, the next would be to look at the actor himself, who was born in Los Angeles to parents of Pakistani heritage. While an Islamic country, Pakistan is considered part of South Asia’s Indian sub-continent and is no more part of the Middle East than is Indonesia.
The implication of a person from the “Middle East” is that they are of Arabic descent from the Persian peninsula and surrounding area. Sadly no canon about Robau meets any of the criteria.
Nevertheless, based on the actor’s heritage alone, one can say he is Pakistani and second in a series of Captains to be descendent from that region. To say he is anything else is unsubstantiated by on screen canon.
Personally, I’d like to see new characters and stories, not retreads from TOS. I love my TOS and it isn’t that I don’t want to see some of those characters, it’s just I’d rather see some new stuff instead.
Don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, but I think they’ve got some golden possibilities with Vulcans as a refugee race, there could be some great stories to jump off from that. Or new explorations would be cool, something we haven’t seen before. Original Trek and TNG was all about showing us new and interesting races, challenges etc. As long as they don’t recycle the same ideas that have been done better before, I’m happy.
RD, what’s the Persian Peninsula?
And Iranians aren’t Arabs, they’re Indo-European, just like most white Americans, and white Hispanics. Pakistanis are mostly ethnically Indo-Europeans too.
All Arabs are not Muslims.
All Muslims are not Arabs.
Persians are not Arabs.
Pakistanis are not Arabs.
Farsi and Urdu are Indo-European languages just as English and Spanish are.
But, in toto, what’s funny is…
Khan, an Indian name, portrayed by an actor from Mexico… has just been “compensated” by
Robau, a Hispanic character, portrayed by an actor from Pakistan.
#220: “Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Roddenberry was some kind of charlatan and we’ve all, as fans of his creation, been duped by a particularly saavy Hollywood bigwig. I think his heart was in the right place and his dream of a moneyless future was laudable and something we should share.”
Oh I didn’t mean to denigrate Mr. Roddenberry in any way. He is one of my biggest heroes. Sure, his comments that we will live in a society without money is a nice idea, I just have doubts anything like that would ever work… there’s too much Ferengi in all of us.
‘Charlatan’ is never a word I would use in the same sentence as the name Roddenberry, even though I acknowledge he was no saint. I know he had his faults, but who doesn’t?
#230: Samuel Jackson???
That’s hilarious!!!
Harry Mudd = Nick Frost
#239: Harry, you are sooooo bad!!!
Are you sure your name is Harcourt Fenton Mudd?
If they were gonna do Mudd, I honestly would like to see it be Jack Black, but to me, he’s a character that doesn’t belong in a movie, unless it some really small roll. Honestly, if they skipped over say the Klingons for him I’d be pissed, even more so than seeing the Enterprise built on Earth and transporters that cant beam a moving person and take 5 seconds to energize.
#249
Yeah, I could see a Mudd in my family history!
#245 – I meant to type “Persian Gulf/Arabian peninsula”.
Of course you are correct. I was definitely using generalities and stereotypes – the language of Hollywood. Where exactly did Robert Orci mean when he used the term: “Middle-East”?
My point about Pakistan being an Islamic country had to do with the fact it was the only connection with the stereo-type of the “Middle East”.
Also, just because Robau is a Latin surname, does not mean he is in fact Latin. He could be adopted. It could be a family name brought to Pakistan by a great, great, great grandfather who married an ethnic local and none of the offspring married outside the race again. However, given his surname and official non-canon place of birth, my bet is he is of Latino heritage, regardless of the actor’s ethnicity. Either way, he is not of “Middle Eastern” descent. And thats probably what was intended.
You bring up an interesting point about Khan. Do you think they intentionally cast Faran Tahir to make amends for Montalban & Kahn? Nah ….
#203, I agree. It’s actually amazing how lame some of the previous sequel ideas sound (First Contact apparently was to be set during the Renaissance).
#202: I’m familiar with the party line, thanks (but that was an excellent summary of it).
Please, no Mudd. Something new, please. Mudd wasn’t even a very good character- an annoying comedy relief. Neither Mudd episode is in any way a classic (though the second is more enjoyable than the first).
Please, please, let’s be original.
Ooh, ooh, I know! How about…….
Star Trek:Creature From The Black Hole
Eh? Eh?
This is Admiral Waugh reporting from San Francisco Int’l Airport. Just flew in from Hong Kong… and guess who I saw on the Air Train switching terminals?
Yup. Greg Gunberg. He had what looked like family with him, so I didn’t go bother him, but pretty cool.
Okay… here comes the controversy. Am I the only one that hated the character of Harry Mudd???
234. RD: Chekov could be gay. :)
75. ster julie
I like that idea, and it nicely ties to both old continuity and the events of ST09, while also taking Trek into a new unexpected direction.
Verne Troyer as Balok, anyone?
#198—”…their nits earn the picking, because after the lens flare fades, it’s the only way left to enjoy the movie ;)”
There is a particularly key word in my comment.
‘I rarely even think about it *anymore*.’
In fairness, it’s been more than a quarter century since TWOK was released, and little more than a month since the release of ST09. A month into TWOK’s run—-there were still plenty of nits to pick. Post #194 was just a taste!
I like ST09 just as much as I like TMP, TWOK, and TVH (three films I consider to be ‘great Star Trek movies’, each in its own distinct way). In fact, it’s the only Star Trek film I have seen more than twice in theaters, and the first since TVH that I even saw more than once in theaters.
Are there nits to pick? Absolutely—but no more than in any one of those standout feature films produced under the Star Trek banner, IMO.
#242—”The implication of a person from the “Middle East” is that they are of Arabic descent from the Persian peninsula and surrounding area. ”
I assume you meant “Arabian” Peninsula. There is no Persian peninsula.
Persia is the area now known as Iran.
I’d like to see them try something completely new and breaking out of the formula completely. Of all the hundreds of thousands of amazing sci-fi novels, there has to be a story that covers exploration in a way that would fit the five-year mission, but would also genuinely test the crew in a way never before. Imagine if something like The Sparrow were adapted to be a Trek story, how shocking and powerful that could be in the context of Star Trek.
Also, as much as I really loved the design of the new movie, the execution of the Vulcan lansdcapes didn’t even come close to the amazing concept paintings we saw here a week or two back. Perhaps adapting someone like Iain M Banks would throw them into a scenario more effectively alien, while again pushing the characters far more harshly than before.
Just my
Just my opinion…
(Should have been on the end of the previous post!)
#252—”My point about Pakistan being an Islamic country had to do with the fact it was the only connection with the stereo-type of the ‘Middle East’.”
Geographically, Pakistan is located on the Indian sub-continent. But the term, “Middle East” has always been broad and rather unofficial.
The use of the term originated in the pre-WWII British Empire (in its Indian offices), and in fact, represented everything from the eastern shores of the Meditteranean Sea to Burma. The terms “Middle East” and “Near East” (as opposed to the “Far East”) were interchangeable. During this time period, even the Indian sub-continent was considered (by its British overlords) to be part of the Middle East/Near East.
The truth of the matter is that the term itself is quite Euro-centric. The Islamic, Jewish, and Hindu peoples of what the British Empire called “The Middle East” have no reason to refer to their region of the world in such terms.
For the sequel ,instead of using another Beastie Boys track, they could use this:lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwJbjb5Y2Aw
#266. Yes and I was referring to the traditional definition of the “Middle East” (the Arabian Penensula/Persian Gulf region) , the one Robert Orci was likely referring to, not the one its “British overloards” might have been referring to, or what people from the region might be referring to, if at all. We’re talking about what “Euro-centric” America and specifically Hollywood thinks here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_east
Either way, there is no “Middle Eastern” captain yet depicted in Star Trek canon.
#268— “I was referring to the traditional definition of the “Middle East”…”
There are no boundaries which define what constitutes the Middle East. That was my point. Even the article you refer to acknowledges this:
“The Middle East (or, formerly more common, the Near East[1]) is a region that spans southwestern Asia and northeastern Africa. It has no clear boundaries, often used as a synonym to Near East, in opposition to Far East. The term “Middle East” was popularized around 1900 in the United Kingdom…”
You narrowed it down to the Arabian Peninsula and Persian Gulf region. Does that mean that Egypt is not a “Middle-Eastern nation”, since it actually lies on the Northern part of the African continent?
The Middle East is both a flawed geographical term, and a geopolitical term as well.
“Either way, there is no ‘Middle Eastern’ captain yet depicted in Star Trek canon.”
Are you sure?
I don’t know the name of the captain in STIV:TVH (the one with the “makeshift solar sail”), but he sure looked and sounded Pakistani to me. And, at least geopolitically, Pakistan is part of the Middle East (as is its neighbor, Afganistan). So I suppose the question is one of interpretation.
Redo “Day of the Dove”, but put the handful of Enterprise survivors on a Klingon warship as prisoners– and blow the radioactive-leaking Enterprise to atoms.
How’s that for thinking outside yer box?
#269 – that Wiki article also defines very specific countries which comprises the “traditional” Middle East core area, and outlying countries comprising the “greater” Middle East”. Also, I originally narrowed it down in #242 to the area “surrounding” the Gulf and Peninsula, which includes Egypt. But now you’re splitting hairs. The point is, what does Robert Orci and most of Hollywood and America think the Middle East is? That’s what started this whole Middle East thing. I would argue Pakistan would not be one of the top nations mentioned.
My question to you about no captains of “Middle Eastern” descent, is are you sure?
As far as ST:IV captain, you originally indicated in #185 he was from the “Indian Sub-continent” and Robau from “what we know as ‘the Middle East’”, marking a clear distinction between the two, suggesting now that you did not consider Pakistan to be part of “what we know as the Middle East”. Either way, it is ambiguous at best. The captain from TVH sounds as if he is from some part of the Indian Sub-continent, while Robau has a Latin surname.
If you put the scenes depicting both in front of an average American viewer, I doubt they would deduce either captain was from what they know as “the Middle East” based on the on-screen evidence alone. So now we have to agree what the definition of “Middle East” is to determine the ethnicity of the character. Better to just go with what’s on screen.
Nevertheless, Orci’s point was just because Chekov was born in Moscow and has a Russian accent doesn’t mean that’s where he’s from. He could have been raised in Vermont. Sulu could have been born of Japanese parents and raised on Mars. Kirk is from Iowa, he only works in space.
#271 – just to confuse matters more, the captain in TVH was in the script named: Joel Randolph (likely why he was simply credited as “Starship Captain”). He was played by Indian tennis star turned actor Vijay Amritraj. Nothing “Middle Eastern” about him.
#271—”…you originally indicated in #185 he was from the “Indian Sub-continent” and Robau from “what we know as ‘the Middle East’”, marking a clear distinction between the two, suggesting now that you did not consider Pakistan to be part of what we know as the Middle East’.”
At the time, I wasn’t aware of the ethnic origins of the name ‘Robau’. I have taken yours and others’ word that it is Latin. I was going by his appearance and accent, which I identified as Middle Eastern. I wasn’t even aware that Tahir was Pakistani. What that *actually* suggests, is that I was willing to narrow down the origin of the TVH captain, but only willing to provide a broader range of origin for Robau. Had the character been of the same ethnicity as the actor (which he apparently is not), I would consider that to be correct.
But fine. If the TVH captain is a man whose descendants come from the Indian sub-continent and Robau is from Cuba—-the original point is no different, which was to say that Star Trek has had ethnically diverse characters (and in prominent positions).
“The point is, what does Robert Orci and most of Hollywood and America think the Middle East is? That’s what started this whole Middle East thing. I would argue Pakistan would not be one of the top nations mentioned. ”
I think that depends upon how the question is worded. If 100 random Americans were asked to name the first 5 Middle-Eastern nations they can think of—Pakistan would probably not be among them very often. But if the same 100 random people were directly asked if Pakistan is a Middle-Eastern country—-I’m not so sure the majority would not respond with a ‘yes’.
The truth is, right or wrong, most Americans associate “The Middle East” with Islam—nevermind that Pakistan has a substantial Christian population as well, which most Americans are not even likely to know; and nevermind that “The Greater Middle East” historically encompasses the entire Indian subcontinent, the Jewish state of Israel, and parts of the former Soviet Union as well.
“My question to you about no captains of “Middle Eastern” descent, is are you sure?…Better to just go with what’s on screen.”
The answer is that I am as sure as I could be without a concrete affirmation onscreen that a Starfleet captain of (greater) Middle-Eastern descent has been depicted onscreen—since I am pretty sure that guy in STIV was Pakistani. Had I known that both he and the actor who played Capt. Robau (not knowing that Robau is some kind of Latin name)—I probably wouldn’t have used the term “Middle-Eastern”—-not because I don’t consider Pakistan to be part of “The Greater Middle East”, but because I wouldn’t have felt it necessary to be so vague. I probably just would have said “the Indian sub-continent”, or perhaps even just Pakistan.
#272—”He was played by Indian tennis star turned actor Vijay Amritraj. Nothing “Middle Eastern” about him.”
It doesn’t compliacte the matter too much, since the map in the article to which you yourself referred still identifies India as part of “The Greater Middle East”, and in fact, the British colony of India was very much the origin of the term “Middle East”/”Near East” in the first place.
But I do stand somewhat corrected, as I was pretty sure by looking at him and listening to him that he was Pakistani. Oh well, I was close—same sub-continent….
Steve Buscemi as Capt. Decker. Will Ferrell as Stonn. Paris Hilton as T’Pol. Lindsay Lohan as Nurse Chapel (Hey, she needs the work). Definitely.
But seriously, Ryan Reynolds as Kirk’s brother. Yes. He belongs to the same family of faces that includes Chris Pine and William Shatner, and he’s a good actor.
Let’s get Ryan Reynolds in the sequel guys.
#273. I’ll admit I did not want to appear that I was being so politically incorrect as to assume the same thing about Robau’s appearance and accent, especially after I found out he was supposed to be Latino. Orci is most likely doing a bit of Rectoning of his own after the actor was cast, originally intending him to be from Cuba. Imagine if the Indian actor had been referred to as Captain Randolf in TVH, what kind of controversy that would have sparked had the internet been around. none of it really matters, clearly. Given the British occupation of India, it’s perfectly believable a man of Indian heritage might be named Randolf. Just like a kid from Kentucky born named Clay could end up legally named Muhammad Ali. None of that is ultimately important. They are both definitely ethnically diverse regardless of where they are from and continues a fine tradition established in Space Seed.
In the end, I respect that Trek has attempted to be diverse with respect to the peripheral characters and the franchise overall. However, I still maintain that the “important” central characters are far too Anglo-American and male dominated at that. Unfortunately 4 of them cannot be changed without a serious reboot, leaving an opportunity for two core characters to change, despite Chekov already being set (but as #259 pointed out, perhaps Chekov could be gay). Perhaps leave Checkov & Chapel ethnically as they were, but minimize their focus as primary crew and introduce two new major recurring characters that expand the relevant cultural world view a little more broadly for this 21st century adaptation of TOS. TVH captain and Robau were great, but ultimately we won’t be hearing from them again.
Also, just thinking about the cadet group that confronted Kirk with Uhura at the bar in Iowa were all white American males. And it seemed I saw a lot of white, predominantly male faces in the background all over the ship and in supporting roles. Uhura replaced a white make. Scotty replaced a white male. Sulu even replaced an Anglo sounding named officer. Just looking at the actors who received on screen credits reveals a large percentage of men and a large percentage overall with Anglo/European surnames. I wonder how America would receive Trek if, all things being equal, it had been created in Bollywood with a predominantly Indian cast and exported to the US. Would it have become the phenomenon it has?
Taken as a whole, it sure seems like this vision of the future Federation is dominated primarily by America’s successors and their 20th century allies, primarily Great Britain. The principle and supporting characters representing roughly the same demographics as define the USA today. It would be nice if this Federation had a real and visible diversity, not including aliens, that Trek has always purported.
#276—”…just thinking about the cadet group that confronted Kirk with Uhura at the bar in Iowa were all white American males.”
Perhaps you should look again. One of them (behind and to the left of cupcake) was clearly of Asian descent. For some inexplicable reason, he stood out to me in my second and third viewing.
I would have had no problem with the absence of Chekov, especially since—quite frankly—he shouldn’t have been there at all in 2258. It takes a pretty big fanon stretch to explain why (in the prime timeline) he is 22 in 2267, yet (in the altered timeline)17 in 2258. The only reasonable supposition is that he is the lone character whose DNA is not the same as his prime counterpart, having been conceived of the same parents at a different time and given the same name.
With that said, I completely understand why he was put there. But they could easily have written a different character to assume the navigator spot without any retcon at all—-different timeline, different navigator.
“Perhaps leave Checkov & Chapel ethnically as they were, but minimize their focus as primary crew and introduce two new major recurring characters that expand the relevant cultural world view a little more broadly for this 21st century adaptation of TOS. ”
On this, we are somewhat in agreement for sure. Given the recent passage of Majel Roddenberry and the nostalgic sentiment which inevitably goes with that, I don’t think we can expect much change in her. However, she was always nothing more than a semi-regular to begin with. There is no reason she suddenly has to be any more significant. I have actually been advocating an infusion of new faces aboard the Enterprise under James T. Kirk’s command since the mid-80’s (when it never made sense to me that all of these supporting characters had such stagnant careers). The possibilities for alternative recurring characters (at least recurring over two more films) are endless.
And Abrams (as well as Lindelof) loves a good surprise. I wouldn’t be shocked to see someone like Chekov bite the big one. I am pretty ambivalent on the gay thing with Chekov. I never liked to see Trek trying too hard. There is a fine line between a corner-of-the-mouth smile and an eye-rolling experience, IMO.
Or given the time period to be depicted, even some old ones could be brought back—-like Dr. M’Benga, whose place aboard the Enterprise as a full-fledged physician I always found to be a rather bold choice for 1967 American television. Even more remarkable was the fact that he actually had some good lines! Unfortunately, he only appears in one episode—as does Commodore Stone. There are additional established characters out there too—like the never before seen Nogura, Morrow, and Cartwright.
Closet, I think M’Benga was in two eps.
#278—I recall “A Private Little War”. What was the other one?
Nevermind.
“That Which Survives”.
“That Which Survives.” By the way, a friend just e-mailed to tell me Trek was still on IMAX at the Edwards I-10! Apparently now at 9:30pm.
#281—Well, I know where my father’s day outing will end up after dinner…
It wasn’t supposed to come back until 6/12, but it’s already showing again tonight. I wonder how long it will stay there. I already caught it there twice, but if it is still there for Father’s Day—I’ll do it again!
I’ve been trying to get away to the Alamo Drafthouse to see it a 4th time (overall) over food and beers. It just hasn’t happened yet.
#283 … I hear ya. Not sure when I’ll get to catch it again. Going to Chicago (where my folks live) soon for about a week, so I don’t know. But I do need one more viewing. :-)
227
I would argue, except for the films, Chapel was more of an integrated character than Uhura and Sulu.
She had a whole episode devoted to her.
I think folks tend to rely to much on the films for their TOS info.
#285. I hope you aren’t accusing Closet or myself of relying too much on movies for our TOS info. Of course she was more integrated, Majel Barrett was the producer’s girlfriend. She was originally supposed to be the ship’s Number One and helm officer. So it is not surprising she had an entire episode based around her. But according to Memory-Alpha she was only in 25 of the 79 episodes and most of that time she was pining after Spock and bringing people soup. Ultimately that level of development was unwarranted for the character. Well Spock has a girlfriend now (and I have no interest in seeing that further explored or complicated) and there is no real reason to otherwise involve the ship’s nurse regularly into most of the plots they could come up with for the next few films. Then there’s the argument for more diversity than yet another white blonde Anglo. In contrast, both Sulu & Uhura provide both ethnic diversity, and provide vital recurring services aboard the ship to almost every episode in the series. The movies finally allow some tighter integration which Uhura go in this film and perhaps Sulu will in the next.
#276. Loved Dr. M’Benga. Unfortunately, adding another character to sickbay doesn’t really keep them vital unless the movie revolves around something medical. You’ll note in the films, we rarely saw sickbay the way we saw it in TOS which is partly why we saw little of Chapel. What’s needed is someone who who will be around from film to film, either on the bridge or holding down engineering while Scotty takes command or is on a landing party (why Scotty ever went anywhere of a non-technical is beyond me), or a head of security or weapons. Besides, I think there is little avoiding Chapel considering we’ve already heard her name called (or perhaps that will be the joke – we never see her).
Hopefully Abrams & Co. will be up to the challenge of creating another couple of new, diverse, regular iconic characters as vital and memorable as as the originals.
If Mudd,or Cyrano;ONLY as minor cameos(perhaps as hired smugglers of the new Ms. Ryder villain; the Crimelord of one of the Orien Crime Syndicates?).
IMHO, movies CANNOT have dozens of secondary characters with elaborately detailed backstories & long story-arcs.That resides within the province of a TV series that has 50, or, 100 episodes to develop detailed,secondary characters.Movies have to maintain a fast pace & an epic scale in their story-telling.
BTW,that would mitigate against an exploration story-in-movie format;unless it was an outrageously fascinating story of a planetary culture with a historical tale to tell,on an “Indiana Jones” scale of story-telling.
I think the “5-year mission of exploration” should await the inevitable TV series that will follow a sucessful trilogy of fantastic STAR TREK movies, by JJ & Co.
#285—”I would argue, except for the films, Chapel was more of an integrated character than Uhura and Sulu.”
I referred to Chapel as a “semi-regular”. She only appears in 25 episodes. Uhura, meanwhile, appears in 65 episodes. The other character to whom you compared her (Sulu) appears in 52 episodes.
I readily acknowledge that she is more developed as a character than Sulu, but I’m not so sure I would say that about her in comparison to Uhura. While Uhura doesn’t get an episode where the plot is built upon her backstory (as Christine does in “What Are Little Girls Made Of?”), we actually get numerous glimpses of insight into her well-rounded life and personality throughout the series.
In fact, I think the notion that she is merely there to “answer the phone” in TOS is a misconception. She is an avid collector of art and cultural artifacts, a singer, ana an athlete. She also possesses skills beyond the range of what is necessary to be a communications officer, could be relied upon by her superiors in critical situations, and was sometimes deemed an asset on landing parties.
“You’re the only one who can do it.”—Kirk to Uhura (”Mirror, Mirror”)
“Lieutenant, I can think of no one better equipped to handle the repairs.”—Spock to Uhura (”Who Mourns For Adonais?”)
There are other moments in which she “shines”.
In “Bread And Circuses”, she is the one who sets the Captain, First Officer, and Chief Medical Officer straight on their misconceptions about the spreading religious teachings on Planet 892-IV.
In “Space Seed”, she demonstrates tremendous loyalty and courage with that memorably defiant scowl directed toward Khan’s henchman.
Chapel, at least in TOS, is almost completely driven by her pursuits of unattainable men. After all, even her decision to join Starfleet was based upon the chance that she might run into Korby.
With all due respect to the lovable Nurse Chapel, I think Uhura is a far more developed character as a whole.