Orci & Kurtzman: Chances Of Khan In Star Trek Sequel 50/50 June 26, 2009
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Orci/Kurtzman, Star Trek sequel (2012) , trackback
There is yet another Transformers interview with Bob Orci and Alex Kurtzman that delves into Star Trek territory, but this one they actual gave some odds on if Khan Noonien Singh will show up in the Star Trek sequel, along with talking about how fans (like those here at TrekMovie) are informing their decisions.
More from Bob and Alex on the great debate over the Star Trek sequel
excerpt from Movie Moron interview
Movie-Moron: You’ve mentioned that the fan talkbacks are informing future Star Trek films. Are there any specific suggestions that you’re going to consider? Any big Red Lights of where NOT to go with the franchise?
Roberto Orci: As you can imagine every kind of opinion has been expressed in relation to the movie, so there have been both red lights, green lights, yellow lights, the gamut. What they have done is very quickly identified the fork in the road, which is to do a completely original story or to harmonize with canon the way we did in the first movie, where some of the events overlapped with the original universe and were the same even if time travel hadn’t happened and some of the harmonies were reversed, like Spock with Uhura instead of Kirk. They very quickly have fallen into those two camps. And that’s interesting cause that’s the debate we’re having with ourselves. So we’re literally getting to read this ongoing debate online and it’s very helpful.
Movie-Moron: Seems like it’s a lot of people fleshing out all the possibilities.
Roberto Orci: And just the merits of one philosophy over another more than any specific ideas. It’s more about what’s philosophically right to do. Very fascinating.
——
Movie-Moron: Arguably the most iconic Star Trek villain: Khan. What is the chance you’re going to bring him back?
Roberto Orci: What do you think Alex? 50/50? Is that a boring answer?
Alex Kurtzman: That’s a good answer.
Roberto Orci: 50/50. Let’s flip a coin right now on the phone. If I said 10/90 I wouldn’t tell you which direction we were leaning in anyway.
Much more from Alex and Bob, including why Nero never went to Romulus, at Movie-Moron.com.
A new Space Seed?
Most in the mainstream media think of the 1982 film The Wrath of Khan, when the name Khan comes up, but if Bob and Alex are sticking to their timelines (even their alternate timelines), then any movie with Khan would involve a retelling of the TOS episode "The Space Seed" when Khan was first encountered by the USS Enterprise under the command of James T. Kirk. It was Kirk’s solution in that episode, exiling Khan on Ceti Alpha V, that prompted Khan’s revenge (and wrath).
Remastered trailer for “Space Seed”
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Comments»
This time they can actually show Khan meeting Chekov!
Maybe Khan will be bald. We’ve been having bald villains for four movies in a row now.
Please, NO Khan in the sequel! He’s too iconic and shouldn’t be messed with.
If you want a good villain for Kirk to face off against, use Captain Garth of Izar. Remember, he tried to force his crew to wipe out a civilization. We could see exploration, conflict, Kirk facing a superior intellect/experience (Garth was a hero, remember), etc…
Make it a mix of Apocalypse Now (taking out the crazy commander)
But please, no Khan. Why go again where Trek has so ably gone before?
Please, no.
If you’re going to revisit TOS episodes, I again recommend an amalgamation of “Errand of Mercy” and “A Private Little War.”
Bob and Alex, since you say you are listening… look, just make a bang up movie.. go with the great story, and stay true to the characters…. a rehash of an old story is fine, as long as it’s good.. Khan, Mudd, Kor, Koloth, Tribbles, whatever… it’s got to be good…
I think everyone trusts you now… to carry forward, and bring our heros to life again, and again , and again….
My vote is for a tribble/Organian Peace Treaty/Kor/Koloth/huge war thing that shows us the funny ( with the tribbles) part of our show and the best bad guys in the universe, the Klingons…
OMG I remember those days, I was a little kid. I still like watching the oldies though. However, I am not as old as Shatner, he is old enough to be my dad. LOL
no khan please.
be original.
long live trek.
Give us Klingons, a lot of Klingons, not Khan.
I have to say, the best way to go would probably involve a combination of new and old like the current movie. Like having the klingons in it but doing a totally new story and a new take on the klingons that we haven’t seen before, for example.
# 4 – Or, merging “The Doomsday Machine” and “Miri”.
Please, no Khan. Leave him be. Don’t diminish the greatness of TWOK and Space Seed. There’s no reason for it. Do something original. Please.
I understand the desire to “harmonize with canon” but things are so different in this new incarnation. Just move onward, outward and upwards.
3. Paul B.
I like the idea of Garth of Izar. He’s not too well-known but interesting enough that K&O could have a lot of play with him. In fact, the fact that he’s not too well-known, and that there’s very little character history attached to him as opposed to Khan, could allow them to take the character in a lot of different and interesting directions.
No Khan this time. Show the sleeper ship floating alone in uncharted space going into the end credits
Then Javiar Bardim can start taking massive amounts of the Hugh Jackman, Batman begins Bale, Cast of 300, and many other action stars in hollywood today, steroids and HGH so in Star Trek III (2011-2012) he can be properly bulked up and have that veiny red steroid neck when he gets beat up with a lead pipe by Pine in the water reclamation plant
Khan in the next movie?
No no no no no no no no no no
NO ONE could come close to Ricardo Montalban’s performance. Any attempt to do so would do the original injustice, and will evoke the Wrath of Fans.
Of course #3 and 12 have exceptional taste as well
I don’t think Khan can be done any better. They started out great with a fresh story idea. That is what Star Trek needs now. To quote a primary timeline captain: “Young minds, fresh ideas, be tolerant.” :)
New stories please!
My vote, if the writers are reading this, is for no Khan. Not only has it been done, but you pretty much JUST DID the same thing with the current film. I’d encourage you to find a story to tell that doesn’t hinge on a revenge-seeking, personal-vendetta crazed antagonist, and rather explores some of the many, many other themes in Trek.
Ok. I”ll be *that* guy.
“Space Seed”…not “The Space Seed”.
I’m sure I’ve posted this elsewhere, but add me to the “NO KHAN” list. It’s been done (and quite well) and I’d really like to see something new.
I vote no for Khan as well.
Really break out on to your own now. Expand as writers.
Please no Khan!!! No revisits PERIOD!!!
This movie was WILDLY SUCCESSFUL because while it was sprinkled with elements from previous ST episodes/movies — it was a BOLD and FRESH STORY with a FRESH APPROACH!!!! It won over NEW fans, old fans and most importantly OLD SCHOOL fans. Keep it fresh PLEASE!!! Perhaps a new take on the “Mirror Universe” (an invasion from the “mirror universe” — “re-introducing” say Gary Mitchell, Janice Rand (Sienna Miller playing her :-)) . There is so much TREMENDOUS POTENTIAL with the new timeline, do not need to do any reduxe’s!!!
#17—”My vote, if the writers are reading this, is for no Khan. Not only has it been done, but you pretty much JUST DID the same thing with the current film.I’d encourage you to find a story to tell that doesn’t hinge on a revenge-seeking, personal-vendetta crazed antagonist, and rather explores some of the many, many other themes in Trek.”
As pointed out above, a new Khan story would have nothing to do with personal quests for revenge. We’re talking about “Space Seed”, not TWOK.
A new story would have to hinge upon either the Enterprise or another vessel encountering the sleeper ship “Botany Bay”, as the Prime crew did in 2267. I’m not sure where any revenge angle would come into play.
a great movie would involve the doomsday machine..
#10 — Huh? No thanks.
I’ve been one to say “as long as it’s a good story, go with it,” but this time… I’m gonna have to say no to Khan. For one, it’s a “don’t mess with perfection” kind of a thing. Secondly, this would be the third Trek movie in a row where you have the main villain bent on revenge. Shinzon, Nero, then Khan. It just seems…. old.
However, I do like the idea of going with Captain Garth. It would be along the same lines of Human vs. Human, and leaving well-enough alone.
We have a great new stage set, it’s time to actually do something with it. Bob, go with your gut. And…. if need be, bring back Khan, but ONLY if you feel you can do it successfully. We were all on pins and needles waiting to see what would happen with this one, and we trust you now.
Just do what feels right.
I’d love to see the new crew take on Khan. Bring it on! (I know whatever these guys do, it will rock!)
Why would anyone want to re-visit Khan? The end of the new Star Trek movie brilliantly sets up a new Star Trek universe where anything is possible. The promise of all new adventures with our favorite space explorers is so exciting, and the first thing people are talking about is re-visiting a 42 year old episode and a 27 year old movie? Star Trek is now a blank canvas. I hope the filmmakers truly appreciate the position they are in and go onto create new original adventures and stop looking to the past to regurgitate old ideas.
#24—Again, why revenge?
That’s TWOK…not “Space Seed”.
Khan’s motivation in “Space Seed” is not revenge. It is the attainment of power and the fulfillment of what he considers to be his proper place as a product of genetic engineering.
#22 – Nevertheless, in the minds of that great non-Trekker audience so coveted (with good reason) by the writers, Khan=Montalban=TWOK.
“Space Seed” was truly a “bottle” show, i.e. it took place, for the most part, on board the Enterprise. There’s not enough meat in there to flesh out a two-hour epic movie.
If Khan is in the film, he could be an interesting piece of a larger whole.
Please, DON’T DO KHAN! It has been done and has been well done. Do something original, which I believe was the whole point of the “sideboot” to begin with.
Reducing themselves to remaking/reimagining old episodes after only one film will DESTROY this franchise.
#28—I don’t think that really makes any difference. What matters is the story they tell.
Revenge wouldn’t have anything to do with it.
I say this, not actually being a proponent of Khan in the sequel. But I certainly wouldn’t roll my eyes at the prospect either. The potential for an exciting problem and resolution is certainly there.
And it is not as if the concepts of “genetic engineering” and irresponsible science are somehow irrelevant today.
NO KHAN!!!!!!!!! I do think that there should be some use of story elements of the original series, but doing another Khan movie is over kill, especially when there is so much to pool from. A nice mix of new and old is key. How about something involving Kurzon Dax for folks who want to see Klingons? We never got to see him in this period. I still want to see something about Talos IV. It’d be the perfect homage. Pike didn’t go there in this new timeline. They could come at it from a completely different angle.
Garth of Izar would be cool. I agree with the above poster that he’s a character that is known … yet could be fleshed out with a great deal more flare than we were given in the TOS episode … where he’s already interned.
We could see what drove him mad… learned the chameleon-like power… the reasoning behind his downfall… and update it with our new cast set within that story (where they hadn’t been before). Some interesting concepts and character studies that would be dramatically interesting to set in the new ST universe. ie. starship captain vs. starship captain with principles and prime directives in the mix… plus for the first time another federation Captain would be the nemesis and what does that mean to the young Captain Kirk… and what does he learn about being a Captain from it. Throw in a Klingon for good measure and really turn the 3rd act into a mind F*** for all of the new fans that aren’t as well versed in TOS lore.
… I could go on… but I’m not paid the big bucks to write these things for you guys… but if you need any help… just get a hold of me. lol
I really don’t think Orci and Kurtzman were really attempting to suggest that there was a fifty percent chance of Khan being in the next movie. I think that statement was made tongues firmly in cheek; if anything, it means they haven’t decided a single thing about the plot of the next movie.
So would Khan still be “from the year 1996?” Maybe he was just born in 1996, was a child soldier in Al Qaida and is in Guantanamo right now as a 13-year-old? So, yeah, some canon would need a changin’ Maybe he’s a Jonas brother. Prince. World Domination. It all fits.
What about Janice Lester? I’d like to see Pine sashaying through the corridors in Jimmy Choos.
Well, I for one would like to see some familiar faces that we never really explored all that much in Star Trek. The Gorn for example. Or the Tholians.
Anything is possible as long as it works. I don’t mind rehashes, but no more “transwarp beaming”!!!!!!
I say go with the best story you can come, be it Khan or otherwise.
Closettrekker,
Okay, I can see what you mean. If they go the Space Seed route, anything is possible, and it wouldn’t be based on revenge. But I’d still rather leave it alone.
Personally, I’d like to see a continuation of the current storyline.
God, no. Please somebody, tell me this is a hoax.
Let’s get it straight. TWOK is a good movie. Not the best movie ever made, but a good Trek movie that was a blast when it came out. It’s good for all kinds of reasons- the script, direction etc, and Montalban’s performance hit the right spot, for that movie, at that time. But there is nothing special at all about the Khan character.
Significantly, the creators of TWOK pulled a trick on us. In those days before most people had VCRs let alone DVDs or the internet with which to watch every episode endlessly, most of us had only seen the episodes one or two times. Some would stick in our memories- “the one with the tribbles” or “the one with the big doomsday windsock” but we didn’t have that in depth knowledge we have now. So when the movie creators wanted to pretend that Khan was an arch-nemesis from Kirk’s past, we could swallow that, because we couldn’t really remember the episode. But it was a trick. Khan was just a one episode baddie of the week, and the episode frankly isn’t that great.
So, that worked for that movie. Montalban chewed scenery spectacularly, and it’s pretty good. Though I wonder how many of us now if we put it on fast forward through the talkie bits to get to the battle in the nebula, which is the movie highlight?
The point is, Khan isn’t actually any kind of arch-nemesis. He was made into one for that movie, and it worked. He drove the plot nicely along. But he isn’t part of Kirk’s life- he appeared and was dumped overboard in fifty minutes, and forgotten- and there is no reason to bring the character back. He’s just a baddie of the week who made it into the big time in one movie.
We’ve seen Khan. Back in 1982, he was great. Let’s for god’s sake leave him there where he belongs and have something new for the next movie. If, as is likely, we’re only going to get three movies (with this A1 cast at least), let’s not waste one doing a remake of past “glories”. What a waste that would be.
And, anyway, Prime Spock will have warned them where Khan is and who he is, and no way could he be a threat again. That goes for most of the threats from TOS, come to that.
Please, for all that’s holy, no.
Those writers are clever, why not find a way to make a story about “Exploration” and make it compelling as opposed to the old good guy vs bad guy routine.
Honestly, Nero’s motivation, for me, was not that different from what we’ve seen before, and often too. It felt very “standard bad guy.” I wanted to know more about him and would so even having read to prequel comic.
My only complaint about the new movie (oh yeah, and the amazing similarity of a far future starship looking amazingly like the Budweiser brewery in Van Nuys CA.)
Go for something that would make Gene Roddenberry proud, exploration of space, on the surface, and the human condition, in the subtext.
“I dare you to do better” and make that kind of idea sell tickets.
I want to see those two dudes with half white half black faces. Now THEY were interesting.
Please no KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!
Garth of Izar.
I guess if we’re all voting again i’ll throw in my ballot of:
NO KAHN.
Pretty much any other TOS is okay though , if you can’t go with original. A mix of both would be preferred.
Would it be too much to have, like, three missions featured in the film? Somehow they could all be tide together, but If you thought of each mission as one of three acts, and if you keep a good balance going, I don’t see why not.
Oh yea, and a Mugato too (not Will Ferrel)
To quote Darth Vader: NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here is a better representation.
http://cnnoooooooo.ytmnd.com/
Please God no. I can’t imagine anything more parasitical than “reimagining” previous stories.
Besides, it’s already been remade. :-P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAaX8Aq6smQ
I’m telling all of you… Fez from That 70’s Show should play Khan!
Please no Khan! It’s been done, imo, to perfection. If you’re gonna mine some TOS history how about the Melkotians,Harry Mudd,Organians etc. and my personal favorite…BALOK!!!
The Enterprise meeting up with the Fesarius would be EPIC with todays effects
Mirimani! Mirimani!
Yeah go ahead and put Khan in it.. I guarantee you right now I will NEVER watch it. Heck even tabling such an idea.. Feh..
USS Reliant discovers Botany Bay…Khan captures it – attacks klingons – starting a war between the Federation and Klingon Empire……Enterprise sent to investigate – khan does battle with Federation and Klingon Empire….khan defeated – sent into exile…war averted…Khan set 2b the villian for star trek ‘3′ or a future movie
Space Seed + TWOK + TSFS + TUC + Enterprise Augments = Star Trek ‘2′
Javier Barhem as Khan
someone big like Arnie as a klingon leader (helps with the box office overseas)
I just read #41. Pretty much spot on.
Boborci&Alex, you already DID Khan (the wrathful one from STII). You called him Nero!
So, please no Khan. “Space Seed”, as a story BLUEPRINT, on the other hand: An opponent who comes on the Enterprise in a seemingly harmless way (rescued or otherwise). He thinks himself superior (and in some ways is) to Kirk&Co (that would work with the younger crew of today …). Some even side with him, when he takes over the ship … “Die Hard in Space” follows …
I almost hate to admit it, but there is something here … Just don’t let him be deep frozen since 1986 and don’t call him Khan. Emir, if you must (joking, I want him to be an alien – what if he is a Klingon or Cardassian renegade? The enemy of my enemy?). And maybe one of his follower is called Joachim.
And while we’re at it: No Borg. Great enemies – but their stories are told: We had the Borg vs. the Enterprise, vs. the Fleet, vs. Earth (in First Contact), we met the Queen, visited their home space, had characters assimilated (Picard) and de-assimilated (Seven, the Borg kids and others), renegade Borg (Lore’s group in “Descent”), Borg resistance (sort of, with the Unimatrix Zero thread), and then Admiral Janeway committed a little genocide …
What’s left? Borg doing the Cancan? Oh, that’s done too – was called “Transformers”…;-)
Khan in a “Harvey Dent” style plot? Eh? eh?
Bad idea. Very bad idea.
do not remake classic episodes
Please do not ruin an already great story and character
For this ongoing debate of doing a fresh new adventure or a re-telling of a classic episode let’s remember the following things.
- Star Trek 09 took place in an alternate universe. Alternate meaning slightly different, not totally new.
- There is still a Jame Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, Chekov and Sulu all serving aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise. Are you telling me this alternate universe is totally different? Then why did the main players ended up where they did during TOS?
-Kirk’s backstory was completely changed for the new movie, yet he still ended up becoming the Captain of the U.S.S. Enterprise
-Scotty goofed up and transported Archer’s beagle across the Galaxy, yet he still ended up being the chief Engineer of the Enterprise.
- Spock and McCoy’s bantering continues, I could go on and on.
-Pike ended up paralyzed in a wheelchair just like in TOS.
- This tells me even though some minor things have changed, the universe is still trying to unfold as it did during TOS. That means the people, places and things need to be familiar too. Otherwise, we’re talking about a completely different universe entirely. The universe Orci, Kurtzman and Abrams presented to us in the new movie is a familiar one. Therefore, seeing some familiar characters and missions, re-told, with possibly different outcomes is the only logical path to follow.
Live long and prosper.
I think “The Doomsday Machine” could make a great movie. Obviously, the story would have to be expanded and changed quite a bit, but the planet killer concept is a good one. (Although that might be considered too similar to the most recent film)
I think it might be too soon for Khan. Maybe he could be alluded to and then appear in a third movie?
Brent
I would like revisits in these movies but Kahn is just to big to throw into the second one, “Space Seed” has to be a few down the line (BTW would that movie be called Seeds of Wrath?). They need to do a Klingon War story with Kang and the other legendary Klingon Generals, establishing Kirk’s hatred of the Klingons for future redemption. Besides, the best way for Shatner to return to Trek will be as a Klingon, cameo or minor character.
After Transformers 2 I cannot trust these writers
saying no to Khan is like saying no to star trek 09/reboot, DO IT GOGOGOGOGO STAR TREK 2011 ALPHA CETI SPACE SEED KHAN THE MOVIE, predictions, weekend boxoffice 125mil, domestic gross 650mil, 97% on rotten tomatoes, BLOW US AWAY, sets up a sequel in STAR TREK 2013 RETURN OF KHAN. Do not go the cheesy new mystery in the universe exploration crap we can see on tv/books. V’ger/Final Frontier/Sybok/Generations/Insurrection failed and Nemesis was contrived.
I want to see Khan be a tragic hero who rises in the ranks of Star Fleet, gets greedy and power hungry, Pike dies under Khans command and blames Kirk, turns his back on the Federation and hates Kirk and wants to create a empire greater than the Klingons and the Borg. You can tackle the moral issue of a utopia/dictatorship, HUGE SPECIAL EFFECTS, godfather/superman lines, KIRK and Khan play 3d chess/texas holdem no limit, when they are friends/before they hate each other. Show us what Khan will do in the KM sim. Enterprise vs Klingons and set us up for a epic follow up 3rd film, where Khan is looking for vengence. Talk about where humans were going in the 40’s or 90’s via eugenics and how humans has evolved in 23rd century beyond.
To prevent The Wrath of Khan, Kirk and crew have to go back in time to prevent the launch of the…
Botany Bay…
Botany Bay?
Did they say *which* Khan? It could be Genghis Khan, and they’re doing a remake of “The Savage Curtain”. We could encounter the Excalbians ahead of schedule. Mooo hahh hahhhh. Wouldn’t put it past them!
But I agree… have the Enterprise pass by an anomalous lifesign reading from a derelict vessel and because they’re on an emergency mission of some sort in Star Trek: Mark Two… they pass by it and note they’ll come back later…
I love whosever idea it is that during the end credits, we see a slow pan over the SS Botany Bay.
Tease Khan, leave him for a future sequel… Of course Genghis Khan the Excalbian mirage can come at any point.
#59 Perhaps they mean the “Dictator With A Heart of Gold” storyline? Then we could get Julia Roberts as McIvers, or McGivers, whatever. ;)
Oh man….if they are thinking about bringing Khan back….they better find a damn good reason to do it! Please create new villains!!!!
Im about 50/50 also on Khan. If James T Kirk is Batman then Khan would be his Joker. Just has long as they have a good story I am all for having Khan in. But if they decided to do something completely new then I am fine with it.
How about some Tholians?
T.’.
OK, let’s get one point straight; Khan was a Sikh, not a muslim, and, if anything, I would imagine that some brilliant US rep thought he might be a great ‘counter’ to extremist terrorists in the region. And it would have worked… For a while…
T.’.
WOW! Why would anyone think the great character of KHAN, in any sequel, would be a BAD idea? I don’t understand poll results here so far. Could it be any more bizarre, than Spock, cozying up to his g/f? I don’t think so.
Retell Space Seed and another episode with a great threat than Khan. Have Khan team up with the Enterprise to take on the bigger threat. Have Khan become betrayed or something… thus setting up the 3rd film.
Eh. A ton of people thought Star Trek ‘09 was a terrible idea until they actually saw it. Khan isn’t necessarily a bad idea.
The next film – More Pacled!
#71 – Yes, Tholian Babes!!!
I’d really love for the focus to continue to be on the Romulans and Vulcans – the Romulans in particular have never been given the rich history that the Klingons and Vulcans have. And of course, attention must be paid to the hardships Vulcans are now facing.
What’s going to happen now that the Romulans know the possible fate of their planet and people? Will they join with the Klingons or the Federation or possibly a new race to ensure their survival? These are the questions I want to see answered in the next movie.
There are very few Trek episodes left with endings of “What happened to them after the ship left?”, and the only one that had the most compelling character has already been done. Return of the Archons, Miri, A Piece of the Action, For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky, etc. – none of them could carry a whole movie and not end up feeling like most of the Next Gen movies. Just one long boring episode…
How about examining current world events to find some sort of potential for Space Allegory?
If Khan is introduced why not go have him only play a part in a much larger story. Leave him alive at the end so that Kirk can meet up with him again… when box office starts to sag I suppose.
Forget Bardem. Daniel Day-Lewis would make an awesome Khan.
No no no, please no, not Khan! You guys (Alex and Roberto) are way, way too creative and talented to have to rely on retelling an old episode or movie. I’m looking forward to another original Orci/Kurtzman Trek adventure!
#41—”Khan was just a one episode baddie of the week, and the episode frankly isn’t that great.”
That is certainly a matter of opinion. I love that episode. I absolutely place it in the top ten Star Trek episodes of all time…TWOK or no.
“Khan isn’t actually any kind of arch-nemesis. He was made into one for that movie…”
He isn’t supposed to be “Kirk’s arch-nemesis”. It was a quite one-sided feeling in that regard. In fact, Kirk leaves Khan on Ceti alpha V relatively amicably, under the circumstances. It is what happens to the impromptu colony in subsequent years (the devastation actually occurs 6 months afterward) which causes Khan to construct in his mind the justification for vengeance.
The ’sneaking admiration’ for Khan professed by Kirk, Scotty, etc. (challenged of course by Spock) ultimately turns out to be a weakness which comes back to haunt them 15 years later.
“And, anyway, Prime Spock will have warned them where Khan is and who he is, and no way could he be a threat again. That goes for most of the threats from TOS, come to that.”
That’s assuming quite a bit. Granted, he is willing to do what he feels is necessary in the story depicted in ST09 to aid them in defeating Nero—but I don’t know that I would expect Spock to meddle any more than that. Clearly (as evidenced by his thoughts in the mindmeld, he felt a degree of responsibility for what happened to the timeline, and I think he might limit his interference along those lines.
“there is no reason to bring the character back.”
Strictly speaking, he wouldn’t be “(brought) back”. The Botany Bay was launched from Earth in 1996. All things being equal, he’s already out there.
Now, to be fair, the Botany Bay remained adrift in the Prime timeline until 2267. The story in ST09 ends in 2258—-but of course—-different timeline means different ships in different places at different times. The Enterprise doesn’t have to be the ship which discovers it. In fact, the likelihood that it would be isn’t very strong.
Taran Fahir as Khan! Only with hair.
There is a precedent in Star Trek of having one actor play different roles in consecutive movies, David Warner played the Federation Ambassador in Star Trek V and then played the Klingon Chancellor in Star Trek VI.
Also, Prime Spock has been going through an evolution. From trying to be totally logical all of the time to infusing emotions when necessary. So then it makes sense that Prime Spock feels totally responsible for what has happened in Star Trek09 and possibly feels responsible for being destroyed. Let’s remember, Spock is the same person who stole Pike from the Federation starbase, hijacked the Enterprise and went to a forbidden world out of loyalty to his former Captain. Would it be too much of a stretch to think Prime Spock will try to correct his mistakes by using the Guardian of Forever and fix the timeline?
Don’t do it!!! If it aint broke, DON’T FIX IT!!!!
#65—”After Transformers 2 I cannot trust these writers”
Why? Didn’t they write exactly what they were asked to—-a Michael Bay movie?
Randall Wallace wrote one too. It’s called “Pearl Harbor”. He also wrote the screenplay for an Academy Award winner (best picture).
JJ Abrams wrote “Armageddon” for Bay. But he also wrote “Regarding Henry”.
Michael Bay is who Hollywood writers work for to get a great paycheck. Everyone has to make a living!
Yah, you know, I remember Vendetta, that TNG book by Peter David … That thing delt with Picard in the Academy, Guinan from her borg-destroyed homeworld, the Borg (including a revived borg like 7 of 9 except waaay more realistic), plus they had the doomsday machine in there as the antagonist. That uses pieces from everywhere and puts them together into a new and exciting and fun story.
If they really need to pick at the old stuff, do it right! Vendetta is a great example.
We need a Kahn sequel about as much as we needed a Blues Brothers sequel (Blues Brothers 2000). Noooooooo!
I’m going to lobby for a retelling of “Heart of Darkness” with John Malkovich as Garth of Izar (in the role of Kurtz ). Take the opportunity to explore the madness of war.
Khan is one of the greatest villains in the Trek universe, period.
Any encounter with Khan in this new timeline will play out differently. It wasn’t a small butterfly that Nero stepped on. He destroyed a whole planet not to mention wiped out a key Federation starship.
To have the second, different encounter with Khan, happen offscreen would be a crime.
Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan please!
Transformers 2 is like going to a Monster Truck rally with hot cheerleaders and a intermission with join the Army pitch, next to GM’s latest line of cars/trucks for sale.
No Khan remake, please! If they want to use an old episode as inspiration, they can borrow from “The Doomsday Machine”. I’d love to see it destroying solar systems in a full length, big-budget movie.
Maybe they can find Michael Jackson on board a sleeper ship. ;-)
As long as Prime Spock is galloping around the alternate universe, it is a visual and physical reminder he had to come from somewhere and that somewhere is the ‘Prime’ universe. Prime or alternate? Which sounds more ‘important’ and more ‘official’? If one were broken, which would it be, Prime or alternate. The term ‘alternate’ implies there’s something wrong with it, or something went wrong in it. Therefore, I can totally see them doing a new or re-told adventure for the second movie, but by the end of the third or fourth movie, Prime Spock sets things straight.
No to Khan.
Guys, please don’t do it. Please leave the character iconic to Ricardo Montalban in respect to him. Please move forward with something else.
Well my two cents are that they need to add more phaser banks to the secondary hull of the enterprise since it seems to have no aft weaponry of any kind. This would be logical since any enemy could decloak from behind and start firing up a storm and the enterprise would have to take time and damage in order to turn around into a proper firing arc. An aft torpedo launcer would be ideal as well.
85 Closet,
I have to agree. If you want to blame anyone for a movie, you blame the director, not the writers. The director is the one who makes the final decision, who tells the writers what to write. In T2, it was to make it as absolutely action-packed as possible with crappy humor and Megan Fox’s chest everywhere. Bob and Alex are skilled writers. We have seen this time in again in the tv shows they’ve done, along with ST09.
PLANET EATER!
NO KHAN. PLEASE. HONEST, I’LL CUT OFF A FINGER OF YOUR CHOICE IF YOU REFRAIN FROM SPOILING THE MOST INSPIRED GENRE FILM IN YEARS WITH A DERIVATIVE SEQUEL.
And Ricardo Montalban’s interpretation of that character deserves to remain trapped in the amber of perfection forever and ever.
And might someone be willing to tally the pros and antis once this thread is all said and done with?
Does anybody know if they are going to publish some kind of technical manual for the new movie?
Unless Prime Spock dies, why would he withhold information about known hazards? Kahn in particular – which results in Spock’s own death (and with Vulcan gone, less likelihood of a rebirth). The whole potential for a different story goes away if the Enterprise can just go find Kahn and take them to a planet that doesn’t get destroyed 6 months later.
Even if someone else finds Kahn first, then it just becomes another story about Empire building, with Kahn and his buddies trying to take over the universe. In which case, why not just have the Klingons do the same thing, or some other race? There’s no reason it has to be Kahn. In fact, Kahn lessens such a story since he is essentially a lunatic, which I think is the moral of messing with augments: power corrupts. And we’ve already see a lunatic on a destructive rampage. What’s the difference between a lunatic bent on dominating the universe and a lunatic bent on revenge?
However, Kahn has recognizability at the box office and it’s a name an uninitiated audience will know, which should be good for a few more tickets. Besides, while every Trekker knows the back story to TWOK, few new fans will know anything about it, but they may already know TWOK. Therefore, Trek sells ‘em a prequel to, and boosts DVD sales of, a movie which already exists.
77. steve2 – Yes, Tholian Babes!!!
Sick thought…
#21. Sam Belil wrote: a new take on the “Mirror Universe” (an invasion from the “mirror universe”
Once again, there can be NO Mirror Universe ever again. Orci is quite clear that as long as he is around Trek will only use his application of MWI QM, which specifically excludes communication between other universes. The only result of quantum incursions in Trek is a split-off, branching parallel universe where different things happen.
83. John from Cincinnati – Taran Fahir as Khan! Only with hair.
Right on!
Don’t do it, guys. Create a completely new villain. Use Kang, Kor, and/or Koloth as secondary villains. But try to leave Khan out of it.
Messers Orci and Kurtzman,
Here’s a thought; Why put yourselves through the agony of the backlash that will surely come if you go the Khan route? You did the impossible with Star Trek, you pleased the vast majority of fans and general audiences. But it included years of nauseating debate (that’s polite!) about canon, art direction, casting, raped childhoods and so on.
Do yourselves a favor…stay away from the TOS sequels/updates. A cameo or subplot could be fun, but a whole movie?! About Kahn?! You’re just asking for trouble from the Talifans.
You’re past the hard part of re-launching Trek. You did it successfully (critically, financially). Now the horizon is clear and wide-open. Tell your own stories. Without a tether to a controversial subject…maybe you’ll have more fun. (And these messages boards might be more fun too if there’s less incentive for the Haters to show up!)
No. Please, I’m begging you…no Khan. You don’t need to go there. You struck gold with this movie; there’s no need for a direct retread.
If you’re really hankering to incorporate stuff from TOS into the next movie, here’s an idea for ya:
Weeks after the decimation of a third of Starfleet’s total starship complement, the deaths of hundreds of cadets and officers, and the destruction of Vulcan, all at the hands of Nero, the United Federation of Planets is in a state of chaos. Member species and colony world leaders fear that this unexpected weakening of the Federation’s foundation could allow enemy forces, such as the Klingons and Tholians, to strike when Starfleet is least able to defend the galaxy.
The Federation Council, concerned with increased enemy activity in the Laurentian system tying up the bulk of the fleet, leans on Admiral Pike to ensure that Starfleet made the right decision in turning over the center seat and the other command positions to former cadets. So, he sends his most trusted former colleague and friend, known only as “Number One”, to observe and assist Captain James T. Kirk and the Enterprise crew as they’re sent to maintain the peace in a highly contested sector of space, as it rests close to both Klingon and Tholian sectors of the quadrant, and just happens to include a planet that a large group of Vulcan refugees seek to populate.
While Number One’s strict adherence to Starfleet regulations and her down-the-nose point of view of Kirk’s command style continues to get under his skin, he must put his aggravations and pride aside to negotiate for the Vulcans’ safe colonization of the planet, which, according to Starfleet scientists, may contain a wealth of a powerful element that could be used for a powerful weapon. The Klingon Empire and the Tholian Assembly independently plan to get to the planet first and plunder it for the element, killing anyone standing in their way.
Political and military tensions rise between the Federation and its enemies, romantic tension surrounds not only Spock and Uhura, but Kirk and Number One, with new yeoman Janice Rand only adding to Kirk’s romantic dilemma, and Starfleet must rely on the young crew of the USS Enterprise to prevent what could become an interstellar war, fueled by a powerful new energy source…codenamed CORBOMITE.
See? No Khan, an original storyline that ties into the last movie nicely, with plenty of nods to the original series utilized in new ways.
Hell, if Bob Orci and Alex Kurtzman don’t use it, I may just write it as fanfic. ;-)
Doesn’t matter anyway.. The public is hooked so they can do whatever they want to with Trek. It belongs to them now. Doesn’t matter how we vote.
I’m another ‘no Khan’ voter.
New stories, with nods to the original. I would have no problem with the very end of the next film being basically the teaser of Space Seed. Spock gives Kirk the sensor readings, and the last thing we see is the Enterprise pulling alongside Botany Bay.
Please Do Not Do a RE-TELLING. We’ve seen it. Much of the magic of ST09 is the new story with somewhat familiar characters. The beauty of this is that their backstories have changed creating new motivations and process. Use these differences to create something NEW.
Here’s another vote NO for Khan in the next one. If you need a villian with a ‘K’ do Kang or someother Klingon. I just think Khan was done, and done right so leave him be.
PLEASE! NO KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!!!!! I loved the new movie, but what is the point of making a new timeline if you only redo old episodes and movies?! Give us some new challenges. If you want to have old enemies, then go with the Klingons! Qapla!
there is a KHAN poll on the right column
I am against rehashing any ideas from TOS. Use this new universe for new stories. I am all for classic races being used, Klingons, Romulans, Andorians, etc….but if you use any actual storylines from the original you are treading on thin ice.
I saw a posting before that suggested the opening teaser for the next movie could possibly be a re-imagining of the ENDING of an original episode…..something exciting and action packed in the vein of the Kelvin’s sacrifice. Then use that for the jumping off point of the new movie. That sounds like an interesting way to go to both give new ideas a chance and show that some of the original timeline is still in place.
How about starting up with the end of Balance of Terror a big battle between warbird and Enterprise….then kick in the new story from the consequences of that battle?
If Transformers 2 sucks don’t put most of the blame on AK & RO.
Michael Bay takes the script (whatever script it is) and makes it into a “Michael Bay Picture.” It’s his final vision. He gets paid big time because he makes huge money for the studio. Relax, this is not fine art, it’s pop art, and you can’t blame RO & AK for makin a livin.
Bob and Alex, you are treading on sacred ground.
You went the retool route with an origin story. Please do not mess with this story line. I don’t want any comparisons to The Wrath of Khan. I do not want history rewritten in this or any other timeline.
How about something ORIGINAL. How about something other than a bad guy gets his ass kicked by the Federation.
How about telling the story of why the Federation is not allowed to develope cloaking technology. Perhaps some kind of major accident cause worlds to be destroyed and threatens the galaxy. Kirk comes back from the future to save the timeline. Something like the finale of TNG where different timelines all came together.
Too many stories of good guy vs bad guy. How about something new?
Wait, did they just say that their movie “harmonizes with canon” and some events would have happened the same way even if the reality hadn’t been altered?
*laughs for five straight minutes*
Just do your Space Seed remake already and give me proof of how unoriginal you really are. Why did you even bother with rebooting the franchise if you’re gonna rehash the villains? That is LAME!
#117 “Wait, did they just say that their movie “harmonizes with canon” and some events would have happened the same way even if the reality hadn’t been altered?”
Yeah I’m still laughing.. laughed so hard I cried..
Let’s stop fooling around and just settle on one movie that we can remake over and over again.
Star Trek II (II)
Star Trek II (III)
Star Trek II (IV)
Bring it!
AP, I’m certain that Bob was being flippant in his answer. In fact, It’s obvious. So this article is not “news”. However, It’s interesting to read about the ruminations of Bob and his writing partner.
I say thee NAY!!
Let’s get a Captain Ron Tracy story with him as the villain. Or haven’t they seen that episode?
Star Trek should stay true to its mission statement – EXPLORE STRANGE NEW WORLDS – BOLDLY GO WHERE NO ONE HAS GONE BEFORE. I just don’t feel that any of the movies have ever really highlghted what that ship is out there to do… explore. I will be very interested, like everyone, to see how messers Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman decide to shape this exciting new trek. I loved the new movie and the re-invention that the new actors brought to the roles and look forward to more Scotty and seeing his reputation as a miracle worker in action… although perhaps minus the little alien sidekick… maybe Nick Frost instead?
Well done all round JJ Abrams, Bob Orci and Alex Kurtzman.
no remake, khan and kirk never even have to meet in new timeline.
And after all….didn’t they change everything so they don’t have to be slave to the old stories/timeline/continuity? Whatever we’re calling it.
#125 “And after all….didn’t they change everything so they don’t have to be slave to the old stories/timeline/continuity?”
Yeah that was just an excuse to appease the core Trekkers so they can get away with it without ‘technically’ abusing canon..
If you consider that everything before the Kelvin incident is prime timeline than in some respect they HAVE to revisit some of those TOS adventures… maybe even with Prime Spock’s guidance. Take the Doomsday Machine for instance. It’s still coming…. has been for thousands of years and it’s headed for the heart of the federation. And Prime Spock knows that and he knows how to destroy it. And he knows which planets are in it’s path. He not only has to tell them so they can save Earth, he has the opportunity to save the planets it destroyed before the Constellation encountered it. For that matter they also save Decker and his crew. In fact, how many old episodes are events already set in motion from before the time change. “Space Seed” in this timeline could be as easy as ” See that frozen ship over there? Blow it up and save yourself a LOT of grief. Or tow it to a prison planet.”
The interesting thing to play with here as writers is how much involvement elder Spock chooses to take in guiding them through a history he, to some degree, already knows. “Immunity Syndrome”, “Assignment Earth”, “Doomsday Machine” are examples of events that Prime Spock knows must be addressed. He can’t take the chance that the new timeline won’t place them in position to deal with these problems. And what moral or ethical dilemmas those decisions present him. Either way, I think it is inevitable that the new films will have to be a blend of old and new. I did like someone’s suggestion a while back of opening the new movies with the end of a TOS adventure, a la Indiana Jones. That would also give the films a pacing similar to this one with the Kelvin scene.
Eh, ya know what? These guys have proven to me they get it and can write a humdinger, so I’ll just sit back and enjoy what they give me. Khan or no Khan. In fact the more I think of it, a scenario as Clostetrekker has suggested would be pretty damn good.
That said I believe the statement was a way to no comment one way or the other about the real possibility of Khan being in the next movie.
JMN
How about adding Caitians and the Kzinti
Please guys something different and no Khan. Some exploration adventure and heck maybe mix the Klingon’s or another tech race into the mix. Some fun cool stuff. Oh yes saw the film twice in IMAX and regular screen yesterday. Fun film and it holds up! There were some minor things I would of wanted to be played out differently but other than that here is to continuing the vibe this one started!
# 117 The TOS Purist aka Purolator
Yeah, that sounds like a slap in the face of everyone who is considered as a canonista (I’m one of them!).
No Khan, no Khan, no Khan, no Khan! Go on with something original, no remakes, no episode-recycling! That’s lame and cheap. Proof you can do better!
Wow 127. Troubled Tribble – brings up some very interesting points! Oh yes check out the poll here and you can see the feeling for the use of Khan.;)
How about an incident where Spock Prime’s future knowledge is shared, but doing so backfires?
Can we please for once not have a story that has to do with someone bent on revenge or someone who has a setup to want revenge for something? More Trek movies have had some element of this than have not. ST09 (Nero vs. Spock), Nemesis (Shinzon vs. Picard/Humanity-in-general), Insurrection (Sona vs. Baku), First Contact (Picard vs. Borg), The Undiscovered Country (Kirk’s lingering hatred of Klingons), The Search For Spock (Kruge kills David Marcus, thus Kirk’s hatred of all Klingons), and Wrath of Khan (Khan vs Kirk) all had this element. I realize that the quest for revenge is a common theme throughout the history of human storytelling, but it’s been done in Trek, and done to death.
On the other hand, even though it’s been done, ST09 was a hell of a flick. I’ve seen it 5 times and still want to watch it again and again. These boys can do whatever they want and I’m sure it’ll be great. But I’m just sayin’…
I say Oded Fehr would make an awesome Khan! Maybe they could have the Space Seed story unfold in a completely different way where Khan becomes an even greater adversary or maybe an ally.
I would (and did) vote no for Khan…. there is only one movie and one TV episode and it shoudl stay way.
NO KHAN! If you do Khan, you ruin one of the best films in both science-fiction and Star Trek. So an FYI to Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci: do not bring him back. The character is best left in the past. I wouldn’t mind a story with Klingons, as we haven’t seen them in a film since Star Trek Generations. Maybe a story about the Doomsday Machine, and where it came from could be an interesting film to see. Do not do Khan, Do not do Khan! Besides, we need a new story since this is an alternate reality, why make an entirely new story using elements from the Original Series. That’s my advice to you two writers. I cannot stress it enough, do not bring Khan back. Recasting the character would backfire. Khan is best for Ricardo Montabalan, so Khan is best left in the past and that’s it. Come up with an unique story, one totally within the new reality you created. That’s all I have to say about that.
Harmonize Canon? Excellent…. Excellent. How exactly did they do that?
and Khan? Ha!! Laughable. How exactly can top the original Khan? Tell me. I would like to know. Is it Enrique Iglesias? or Nestor Carbonell? an actual indian maybe? oh oh! sanjaya! Ha ha!
The Movie was a fun, summer icebreaker. Nothing more.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I grow fatigued of this nonsense.
@138
Fez from That 70’s Show would be perfect.
I would also like to see a Mirror Universe story too, and have Shatner play the role of the Emperor of the Terran Empire. Wouldn’t that be a good film too, or that would be too small a story?
Any revisiting of either the Khan episode or the Khan movie = nowhere to go but down. It’s been done already. Definitively, for all time.
If they decide to revisit, they need to go with
1) Mirror Universe or
2) Mudd
Both are beloved but neither has ever gotten full screen big-budget treatment. Original concepts carry nothing but downside risk, and fail to capitalize on the public appeal of Trek elements that ring familiar but are not too sci-fi or overly done (like revenge-driven would-be conquerors)
On another thred, someone whined “They can’t do the Mirror Universe! That contradicts Orci’s quantum mechanic theories!!” Which I thought was pretty funny given the existence of Spock Prime, and the entire plot of the movie revolving around parallel universes. Just because Spock has no means of travel back to the Prime Universe doesn’t mean that the Prime Universe no longer exists.
I haven’t read through all the posts here, BUT please don’t have Khan in the next film!
Superman Returns fell into that same repetitive trap by using Lex Luthor again when Brainiac should have been the villian for that film!
Using Khan simply demonstrates that you’ve already run out of ideas!
Something fresh with hints of old Trek themes (not characters), PUH-LEASE??!!
Just make a great film that’s faithful to Star Trek’s essence. Then everyone should be happy. I agree with JJ that the next film probably needs a traditional-style villain. Remember, this film has to keep the mainstream audience; and they probably won’t much care for an exploration-themed plot. Nevertheless, if the plot is a great, character-driven adventure with some humour, then it probably wouldn’t matter whether there’s a traditional villain or not. Incidentally, most of my very favourite Sci-Fi films don’t have a traditional villain: 2001; Contact; Solaris (1972 version only); etc. Another thing the next film needs is some big names to help with overseas sales. Star Trek should be global. Some of the barriers and pre-conceived notions about Star Trek will have been diminished or removed entirely because of the success of the latest film. It’s time to take it to the next level.
And I think that the writers shouldn’t restrict themselves to TOS source material. There’s much of interest in the TNG and DS9 period, too. I don’t think that the Borg have been done properly in a film yet. I’d like to see a Borg invasion armada. That brings me on to my next point. Show us something new; something innovative. Think of things that haven’t been seen in Star Trek, at least the films, and try to include them. For example, we’ve never seen fleets of ship in combat: it’s always been one or a few ships. Khan or some other villain could either commandeer or attack a fleet of ships, be they Starfleet, Klingon, or whatever. And make the future look truly futuristic:
Change the engineering set. Please. For the love of Q!
Oh my god what a bunch of whining babies…..
Well, most of you.
Not going to make a long post, Khan has been done, in TV and movie, don’t do it again, there are endless possibilities for a villain. I can understand why some people would want it..a new version of Star Trek..why not remake Star Trek’s most popular villain. Personally I want something new, BUT IF they go with Khan it better be done right and it better be done well. Personally I want Alex and Roberto to dream up something of their own, something new, their talent is endless and could come up with something or someone which could be better than Khan. Oops did I just say that?
I think it would be great if Khan could be to Star Trek XII what the Joker was to the Dark Knight, but I wonder if it could possibly wait for another movie, maybe XIII or XIV. I am ready for a good exploration story; have we EVER had that on the big screen in Star Trek history? The Motion Picture was probably the closest thing, but exploration is central to the Star Trek story and it has too often been left out of the movies. So can we please leave the big bad villain aside for XII?
I think a retelling of “Space Seed” and the story of Khan and his first encounter with Jim Kirk should probably be an eventual must, but I don’t know if it should be next.
Klingons, Gorn — even Tholians, okay. But no Khan. Nero just did the Khan thing in the current film! And no Mirror Universe, no time travel, no alternate anything. No more bald villains.
And Garth of Izar was a wuss. No thanks.
Do you realize that they had the power and the budget to make a “good star trek”?
There was nothing wrong with the original Enterprise design. If you look at the other ships, they look modern and epic and still akin to the TOS designs but updated. They kelvin bridge looked fairly good.
But Jar Jar wanted a sleek new design to rival Apple.
and the writing duo Skids & Mudflap wanted to write an origin story. Not a good one, but a gimicky one; a novelty.
did you see what they did to Scotty? I grow fatigued again.
I think maybe a cosmic mystery, partially strange new planet based movie would be good, maybe where the Enterprise crew and the Klingons (with their usual tension) have to face some great enormous space mystery together– not necessarily as a team, but playing off each other, and as similar physical beings trying to understand and deal with something in space.
I wouldn’t mind, however, the next film opening with the Botany Bay only to have some much larger ship come up from behind and smash into it blowing it to space dust without even slowing down. That would be a fantastic fake-out.
Why do we have to have a villain at all? I like the man versus nature idea. Or man versus mysterious alien.
I do notice that no one is even mentioning a redo of “City on the Edge of Forever”. Let’s take a break from time travel, please….
I trust the boys to do “Khan” responsibly, and in a way we least expect. The JJ video in the latest thread implies that he wants a strong protagonist.
Nero wasn’t so strong. He had an advanced ship, but he was quite the simpleton in the end.
Why not have Khan and Kirk become allies in the new film?
Surprise us!
Since Kirk never met Kodos in this new timeline, what about going there? Investigating his planet, everyone thinking he is a great guy until they find out his dirty little secret.
Please no Khan.
please, take the crew and let them have NEW adventures not reharshed ones.
While I champion their using the Mirror Universe or Mudd, the difference with “City on the Edge of Forever” is that it is time travel, which they just did.
Now, I think it would be brilliant if they tied the Mirror Universe and City on the Edge of Forever TOGETHER! Just declare the “Edith Keeler Lives” scenario be the quantum mechanics universe-splitting moment that CREATED the future evil empire controlled Mirror Universe! We already know that Nazi’s conquer the world if she lives – Spock showed us the “video” from that universe already. Wouldn’t that logically evolve into the Empire?
Jar Jar Abrams, Skids Orci & Mudflap Kurtzman:
Please don’t be so greedy. Quit while your ahead. Enjoy your retirement. Buy a yatch. Have an orgy. Leave trek alone.
Trek fans can be as commendable and as much a sport as khan was ;-), or you can feel their lowbrow wrath if you go too far. Just like wheelie humping mikaela, and jetfire a rusty old piece of junk.
Bon and Alex… please, no remakes… we’ve seen all that, give us NEW Trek with the characters we love!!!!
In the next movie, I’d like to see Alice and the white rabbit from “Shore Leave” meet Korob and Sylvia (in their TRUE form) from “Catspaw”.
#155… I have always theorised that the Mirror universe was a split from the City On The Edge Of Forever alternate timeline event. Great minds!
Please, no. We’ve seen Khan done and done well, we don’t need to see him again when there are so many new stories that could be told.
Bob, please consider kicking off the next movie with as big sequence depicting the climax of The Doomsday Machine, as it could be on the big screen, and then go into a new story. You give the fans a tast of a show they know, open it big and exciting, then launch a new story. Kind of like the movies are happening in between some of the episodes we know. Cool idea, huh?
No Khan. Been there, done that. There’s a universe full of other possibilities.
When did we last see a “strange new world” – not one that looks like Vasquez Rocks? Let’s start with that. Something that looks really alien and not like Vasquez Rocks… populated by aliens that look alien and not like guys with prosthetic foreheads. Set some designers to work on that right now while you’re trying to decide on a story. It’s all about boldly going where no man has gone before – not boldly going over old ground. Accept the challenge!
Having said that – I love 161’s idea of revisiting classic episodes in the pre-credits sequences – an irrelevent Bond-style preamble – but that’s all we need to satisfy our thirst in that direction. Beyond that – let’s have something new and exciting and INTERESTING.
Haven’t we already seen Khan twice?
How ’bout something new.
Theres always Charlie evens. He is still out there and of corse theres Tralane or the Squire of Gothos. Hey we could see the Horta. It can be a bit of a misunderstood villian. They could have a run in with the Melkotions and the Gunfight at the Ok Corral. Do not forget that Dr Janice Lester is on the loose. How about the Salt monster. Gorn anyone. How about the Q. One was on Earth in the 1800s. Theres always Guinan. But she can be a good guy. Would be great to see Whoopie Goldberg in Star Trek. How about Kang and Koloth and Kor be the Villians.As Spock is fond of saying. There are always possibilities. Khan is still in the S.S. Botney Bay. Just keep Gary Mitchell away from the barrier. Oh and no M5 computers they just arnt that good. Nomad is still on the loose. So is Veger. An early run in with the Whale probe. Theres the Kelvins wanting to get back to Andramada. Best to avoid the Nexus.Praxus could always blow up early. Well. We will just havt to see.
There’s already a Star Trek movie with Khan
Saw it last night for the fourth time. Still get goosebumps when the Enterprise drops out of warp with phasers blazing to take out all the missles fired at the Jellyfish.
Hey. We can hear Chris Pine say. KHAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re-do the Savage Curtain, the one where they find Abraham Lincoln floating in space :)
Actually, that could give a chance for Surak to come back and help Vulcan refugees reclaim their heritage.
How about someone in this timeline finds the cavern that has Datas head and a bad Dr Soong brings Data to life but reprograms him to be more like Lore and with a new Android body he can wreck havick and it takes the Enterprise with Kirk and Spock and one Guinan to try and find the evil Data and stop him.
YES YES YES!!!
One vote for Space Zombies!!!!!
No Khan please….but if you DO do Khan then 1 vote for Oded Fehr (the Mummy, Deuce Bigelow, etc)
How about a TOS-TNG crossover?
Weren’t there a few really good novels that did it right?
A movie adaptation of Judith and Garfield’s Federation or something like that?
No Khan or re-hash of original stuff..how about something new with fragments of the old for instance..Carol marcus, do we know which planet in the federation she is from?? no. so how about something to do with the planet she lives on suffering gobal warming their culture not allowing the federation or technology to help fix the problem..Kirk on the other hand wants to DO something so he intervenes (against the prime directive) because of his love for her and ends up destroying said planet..
I would love to see a Ent / Tos/ Tng cross over.
My own take, is that Khan should be left alone..
Don’t do Khan…and don’t do humpback whales..
If the redo Khan, then Star Trek 12 will be nothing more than a remake.
2 sides to this coin, hm?: Khan / no Khan.
For what it’s worth (and I really don’t mean to offend anyone), the thought of doing a new — set in a new timeline, potentially free of 40-something years of Trek mythology — Star Trek movie with the Khan character is rather lacking in imagination… IMO. Surely, the urge to CREATE, to do something ORIGINAL, and NEW, has got to outweigh the desire to revisit the past, no??? Maybe I’m sadly mistaken, but putting Khan in a new movie (when he is completely unnecessary) is akin to admitting: we can’t come up with anything new… and I really don’t believe Orci & Kurtzman aren’t capable of coming up with new. You will notice: I didn’t say “anything better.” TWOK is a great movie, Star Trek or not (yes, it is ST). The relationship between Kirk and Khan is a great one for drama, and this is precisely what Harve Bennett saw when he watched “Space Seed.” There’s no denying this.
But to reach a new era in Trekdom, only to fall back on a character who was really a one-shot deal (as others have mentioned, Khan is not a “recurring villian”), rather than explore the possibilities of whatever else is out there, would be the laziest kind of story even I could conjure up.
So, I’m one of those who voted “Khan — bad idea.”
It’s not that if I found out Khan would be the principle villain in the sequel I would boycott the film. It’s just that if I can imagine other things, I’m pretty sure everyone else (including Bob & Alex) can… so, there it is.
I wanted to elaborat on my earlier rejection.
I felt you guys wrote the Star Trek movie as an ‘alternate timeline’ so you can tell new stories. Need I say more? Why hark back to Khan when you can now create an even better story…
I hope the writers read a few vintage Larry Niven short stories and think about the nearly endless possibilities in a science fiction universe. It’s not that I don’t like Khan – I just don’t understand why they would go back to old material when there’s so much more out there to explore.
#107 proves a Khan-less movie can work. And to think I was very pro-Khan before reading his ideas…
I vote “No Khan” as well.
I don’t think Star Trek XII should remake an entire episode or movie, and there is no way to bring in Khan without remaking “Space Seed”. But it’s fine with me if they use an established character or two, say Harry Mudd or Commander Kor, in a new story. Mudd as comic relief, Kor as the main villain.
I’m in favor of a combination of Lord Garth’s and Frederick’s ideas. Open with a familiar scene from TOS being played out on the big screen. “The Doomsday Machine” is the fan favorite, but I would submit “The Naked Time”, opening the movie with the final seconds before the controlled implosion over Psi 2000 and the Enterprise traveling back two days in time. Cut to Pine (finally) doing the “Space: The Final Frontier…” monologue, and then on to the “new episode”, the core story of Star Trek XII.
Finally, at the end of the movie, the Enterprise moves to investigate a derelict ship, and the audience (but not Kirk & Co.) see that she is the SS Botany Bay. Fade to credits.
No Khan.
No ice planets. No retellings of previously filmed episodes or movies. No stories of revenge.
Does Khan make sense as a follow up to Star Trek ‘09? Can’t they save Khan for Movie #3 or even later? Why not explore the aftermath of the destruction of Vulcan? I’m more interested in that than Khan.
I’d like to see Gary Mitchell exercising gaudy, “Akira”-style powers and Chris Pine grappling with the decision to leave his best friend on Delta Vega.
Idiotic notion to remake anything featuring Khan. If script writers can’t come up with an original storyline with new characters, then it’s a pretty poor show. That said, if anything could/should be “retold” then surely it has to be a rethought version of “The Cage”, Captain Pike and all……………….
Just blow the Botany Bay up, based on Spock Prime’s warnings, and be done with it, early in the film, pre-credits, then tell a new story. Done.
Alright, I can’t resist. I don’t have a specific plot (that would be fruitless). But here’s what I’d like to see:
Kirk – In TrekII, Kirk tells Khan, “If it’s me you want, I’ll have myself beamed aboard. Spare my crew.” in TrekIII, Kirk tells Sarek, “I’d have given my life if it would have saved his.” In TrekIV, he dives into the crippled belly of the Bird of Prey to free the whales. The point is that, at Kirk’s core, is his willingness to sacrifice himself for his mates. So, whatever kind of story you tell, when the bottom line is reached, Kirk is willing to make the great sacrifice to save his friends and “family.” This is, IMO, what is at the heart of Star Trek.
Spock – He’s gotten off on the wrong foot with Kirk, and Spock Prime has told him that he and Kirk will be great friends (and I wish we’d seen the Kirk Hologram bit). So, Spock’s friendship with Kirk should have a turning point, when Spock realizes what kind of man Kirk really is — the kind of man worthy of his friendship. To see how this would play out would be appealing to me (and others, I think).
McCoy – We NEED to see more of this guy (played to perfection by Urban). McCoy was always the glue that held the Big 3 together, We know that in TOS, his relationship to Kirk was quite profound, but we never really got to see why. It would be interesting to see WHY Kirk and McCoy were such great friends. And we know that his relationship to Spock was confrontational, but with a hidden respect and even love, which, again, we never really got to see HOW it came to that. Easy to understand why the passionate doctor would bang heads with the “emotionless,” logical Vulcan, but why did he come to care about Spock? I believe that’s the stuff movies are made of, not villains, explosions or alien races.
As for the supporting cast — unfortunately, because of the way Trek is designed, these characters tend to take a back seat to the Big 3. Perhaps there is also a way to really show WHY these characters are so important, rather than just have them blurt out lines, or fill a hole. It’s difficult to give everyone an utterly complete role, but we saw some hints of how Orci & Kurtzman can handle the supporting cast. The problem here is that each of the supporting cast has such a loyal following, you have to show that they are more than the Sigourney Weaver character in “Galaxy Quest,” in order to please them.
As for the newest bit — Spock and Uhura — I don’t really have a problem with this, although it was unexpected. But UNEXPECTED is what I keep talking about, and THAT is how you keep an audience on its toes, IMO.
So, guys, if yer list’nin, I love ya’s, I have great respect for ya’s, and I’m just sayin all this cos I’m caught up in the moment…. Live long enough and prosper mightily.
I think the “50/50″ comment was totally a tongue-in-cheek way of saying they have no idea, just playing along with the fans. At least I sincerely hope so!!
Not to troll or spam these boards, but since the topic is similar I’ll repeat what I posted 2 days ago. My apologies if you’ve read it already.
“I’ve resisted posting sequel ideas on these boards because it usually leads to ideas that have already been used. Trek needs something new. I don’t have that imagination, but I think you guys do. I will give some suggestions, though! ;-)
Spock Prime can’t be left out there hanging. His story needs to be wrapped up. He is working on establishing the new Vulcan colony (or homeworld) when he falls ill of some Vulcan disease. On his deathbed, he recalls the last time he saw his good friend, Kirk Prime. They discuss their life and friendship. Good way to get Shatner into the film in a cameo. Spock Prime dies, and in essence so does Kirk Prime. This could be done at the beginning, much as the Kelvin scenes were.
Bruce Greenwood has to return as Pike. His relationship/mentorship with Kirk is not done. In the wheelchair would be cool, but out of it would work as well.
While the Vulcans are colonizing their new homeworld, an alien race shows up to dispute their claim to the planet. Kinda like the old west, whose land is it? The aliens could be Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, or even a new race if you choose. A battle for New Vulcan ensues. Action, adventure, drama, things blowing up! Space battles between fleets!
And perhaps, at the end, it comes down to a choice for Kirk. The life of his mentor Pike, or the future of the new Vulcan colony? Drama and emotional impact! And great Kirk/Spock scenes.
While I’m at it, a few more suggestions:
Explore the Spock/Uhura relationship further. He’s vulnerable right now, but still has that Vulcan side to fight.
Show the growth in the friendship of Kirk and Spock, along with McCoy as a foil.
Give us more beauty shots of the Enterprise. She’s beautiful, and as much a character as any of the actors.”
Other than that, I might add Gary Mitchell as a supporting player as an Academy chum of Kirk’s, possibly in a “redshirt”. ;-)
YES PLEASE! KHAN WILL SHOW UP, EITHER IN THIS SEQUEL OR ANOTHER, IT IS INEVITABLE. So let’s have these guys do it, who have proven themselves. How can you do a reboot and not use that opportunity to have Star Trek’s greatest villain again? It’s like the people rebooting Batman saying that the Joker’s been done already, by a fine actor, so they’re going to keep themselves from using him.
The film would obviously not be a retelling of TWOK, nor Space Seed except for the finding of Khan in hybernation since that episode was small in scale, so the possibility sounds really exciting to me.
I really feel rehashing stories we’ve already seen is a mistake–especially since this is a movie series, not a TV one with more hours to play with. I very much hope that the next film–and every subsequent one–is a new story. IMHO, the whole point of an alternate timeline is to do different things, not repeat the same ones over again.
Heck yeah! Bring Khan back! No one thought the Joker could make it back … worked pretty well for Nolan, and fans, didn’t it? I think a slightly revised, re-envisioned Khan would be phenomenal (story depending).
Please don’t remake “Space Seed”. It was as perfect an episode as there has ever been. No need to mess with it. Give us something new with some sly references to classic elements we all know and love.
No Khan. Go to Talos instead.
#191 –
PLEASE no Khan. It would make no sense. What would be Khan’s motivation for revenge? Not to mention that the villain hell-bent on revenge theme has been overdone. Let’s make NEW enemies (as a species, not an individual), and have THEM hell-bent on revenge for the third film! ;-)
Make the new Star Trek universe your own. New villain, don’t lose the characters like in Transformers 2. And get JJ to direct :)
This Khan stuff will never end with Orci & Kurtzman. I guess they can’t wait to lay a bomb like Singer did with Superman rehashing Donner!
I’m with 193. No one thought the Joker would be done that much better. People were laughing when Heath Ledger originally got casted. Then the pictures came out and people realized how seriously different it was going to be.
On the flip side of the coin, after all the crappy Star Trek movies that have been released, I can understand why most of you think that Khan can be re-imagined into something better than he was.
@ 2. Jeyl – June 26, 2009
Maybe Khan will be bald. We’ve been having bald villains for four movies in a row now.
—–
OMG, that’s so true. I didn’t realise.
* Borg Queen – Bald and slimy
* So’na Guy – Bald and gross
* Shinzon – Bald with a big nose
* Nero – Bald and tattooed
Maybe bald villians is in Patrick Stewart’s lifetime contract… make him look not-so-bald.
actually its even worse than that – last 6 and 5 bald guys – chang (?) in ST6
Isn’t it possible in this day & age to come up with an original story instead of rehashing TOS or the Star Trek movies now. How about an episode before Where No Man Has Gone Before. I thought that was the whole reason for the re-booted timeline. If I want to watch a good ST movie about Khan I’ll watch my Blu-ray! We want new stories with maybe a sprinkling of things we’ve seen in TOS.
Explore Spock’s humanity, especially in his relationship with Uhura and his friendships with Kirk and McCoy. This Spock is more interesting because he’s willing to consider what his dual heritage means. It would be a nice change to have him in a committed relationship with his intellectual equal, Uhura, while Kirk struggles to connect in a meaningful way with women.
Man, are these guys messing with us or what?
Since the big E doesn’t bump into the Botany Bay for another 12 years, I thought they”d put out at least 5 movies before running out of ideas. If they really do this, my only conclusion would be that these guys are not very creative. Oh, and telling us that since the timeline changed, the course of traffic around Botany Bay has also also been altered, etc. would be pure BS. I’m sure that they would also use their creative minds to concoct a good reason for why the Botany Bay will look different. That way Mr. Church can then take the fall again for crappifying another TOS ship.
I say they are messing with us…
#192 –
I totally agree. We must all remember that this cast was signed on for only 3 films. 1 down, 2 to go, with this cast at least. We can’t expect anything more. The films simply cannot afford to resort to the “favorite episode/favorite character” way of thinking.
Bob, I know you troll this and other sites, and as a fan – not just a Star Trek fan but a fan of genre movies – I implore you, don’t use Khan. We need original films, original ideas. You and Mr. Kurtzman are in a unique position. You’re genre fans making genre movies. Don’t go for the lowest common denominator. Don’t just try to pander to fans. Do something original. Do something people haven’t seen, not a quasi-clever rehash of Khan because “fans love Khan.”
Otherwise, move aside, because there are people out there who want to do original stories, and have the talent to do so.
Remember what happened in Spiderman 3 when the Media hyped up the demand for Venom. The studio forced him in the script & It crashed & burned! It wasn’t time for Venom especially when a director like Rami didn’t even want to use him.
Its EVEN worse! Over half the films have bald bad villains! When Vger takes human form its in the form of Ilia!! That makes 6 films out of 11
As a proud bald man, I’m feeling kinda stereotyped! No more bald villains!! ;-)
204:
Khan and his “Botany Bay” have been affected by the real-life fact that 1996 came and went without any Eugenics Wars. “Space Seed” has been erased from ‘canon’ due to real-life, so Khan 2.0 can be whomever the writers decide he/she should be.
Well if it has to be a bald villan again – I vote for a parallel
univierse Picard vs Kirk (with Patrick Stewart playing the role) – could be the film Generations was meant to be.
No Khan!!
Please!
Let’s try something new, creative, original. Let’s pass on the mashups, remixes, retreads, and leftovers.
Give us something so fabulously, originally cool that it makes Khan look as dated as Ming the Merciless.
As long as they do it right then I’m all for Khan- what made him a great villain was that he wasn’t just brawns but had a brain to go with it. He was a conqueror with passion, a poet and a prince all in one package.
Could he have been a great asset to the Federation if he was a peaceful sort of man? Yes- and Khan became a villain because Kirk neglected him- if Kirk had rescued him in time right after the explosion of Ceti Alpha 6 then he probably would have been a staunch ally to Kirk.
My only concern is that Khan killed Spock in STII but they need to take a different tack if they are to put him in- it won’t be a good movie if there is no price to pay- thats why this latest movie was so good, the destruction of Vulcan was a heavy price and sacrifices like this should continue. Maybe Khan might end up killing another iconic crew member- Scotty? Chekhov? Think of the possibilities…
Bob Orci, I trust you guys will make a well informed decision, I would urge you to do a mostly original film, with a few homages to TOS, make it a and perhaps end the film with Chekov picking up an old signal, that would lead to a Khan film for STXIII.
Nooooooooooooo!!!!!
NOoooooooooooooO!!!!!
NOooooooooooooooooooOOoooooo!!!!
I’ve got an astounding idea! Remake “The Deadly Years” with Pine as young Kirk and the Shat as old (non-Prime) Kirk (no makeup required). Such a movie would thrill the Shatner fans while keeping the general audience in stitches because of the ridiculousness of it all! : D
I’d be down with Khan if they could get an actor of Ricardo Montalban’s caliber to play him. Antonio Banderas is a good actor who has the looks and charisma to carry Khan’s passion.
If Bob and Alex are indeed taking notes from the fan audience for possible re-done episodes, then I have to cast my vote for a return of “The Doomsday Machine”…or a redo of “Arena”. Those are my favorite classic episodes.
Or, if you decide to do a totally new adventure, you guys could take a look around at our world today and come up with a story that speaks to the issues of our time. That, to me, was what was really unique about Star Trek in the 1960’s. It’s ability to give people a “safe” venue to examine the difficult issues of the day.
I can’t imagine the pressure you two are under for this script. Good luck.
The nice thing about the new timeline is that you can take elements from Star Trek history and alter them. So the meeting with Khan can be different, but it can still happen. I, personally, am sick to death of the villain movies. It’s time for some exploration and mystery in Star Trek again. Enough with the space politics and the bad guys.
Mr. Orci ‘n Kurtzman: Please God, no Khan. Please, just don’t. Please. It’s already been done, and really really well.
If you’re going to just remake an existing Trek episode or movie, remake Star Trek V so it doesn’t suck.
Have we learned nothing?? So many here and at TREKBBS.com were worried by rumors of plotlines for STXI. Some people were so convinced that JJA was screwing up ST by even doing the movie that they swore it off before the first scene was even filmed.
This guy apparently knows what he’s doing. This is the most successful film of the year so far and the most successful ST film ever. It’s hard to argue with success like that. Yes, I’ll post my opinion about what I hope the next film will cover, but I won’t post a “They can’t do this or that!” They can do whatever they want and I’ll give it a chance because they’ve earned my trust.
I would prefer an original story with elements that pay homage to TOS. It’d be cool to see how Kirk and Carol Marcus got together or something similar. Khan isn’t my first choice, but if they decide to include that character, I’m confident the story will be very good. I can imagine a retelling of Space Seed with a sequel that covers Kirk’s and Khan’s reunion years later. In summary, I’m in.
Guys, I trust you totally.
But PLEASE DON’T DO IT!!!
It really seems like the easy way out, even though it won’t be easy.
And frankly, Khan’s story has been told. I’m just not interested in knowing any more about him. And I’m sure I’m not alone.
I might like to know where that Doomsday Machine came from; I wouldn’t mind knowing if Trelane was actually part of the Q; another encounter with the generational ship of the Fabrini; more about Talos IV, the Klingons/Organians…there’s a lot more to tap in to….but not Khan…PLEASE
I’m sick of these naysayers who also said no to a reboot- YES TO KHAN!
If Dark Knight can reboot the Joker then you can do Khan too- it would be a guaranteed blockbuster! Khan is to Kirk as the Joker is to Batman- DO IT!
It so easy. So obvious, Spock Prime – other than his general advanced technological knowledge – has a secret. Something he had been working on since we last saw him in TNG. Something he invented working alone on Vulcan – or was he still on Romulus? I didn’t read the comic books.
No one from his time knows about it. He has shared it with no one. It’s so important, so huge (think the Genesis Devise times a million) he had to keep it to himself. He must wrestle with this moral dilemma. (See: Edith Keller) Should he tell new (”new”) Kirk and Spock? If he tells them it may change their future and his past. It might end his existence in the new time line. (Think Back to the Future people disappearing in photos.)
#217, if the writers are taking notes from this thread, then 98.8% of the posts say it is a terrible idea to revisit Kahn… If they a really looking for ideas from these posts, then I’d rather see them merge Lost in Space with Trek and have the big E find the Jupiter 2 (the old version, not another crappy remake) . One of the Lost in Space writers actually wrote Space Seed, so there’s your connection….
Since your comparing to the Dark Knight…thats EXACTLY what Bob and Alex need to do here….all these comparisons to Batman Begins are justified, since they were both reboots , and hell, Star Trek did BETTER that that movie.
The thing is, Nolan made The Dark Knight, and marketed it on the back of the success of BB and look what happened.
BOB & ALEX:Make a Dark Knight, but for Star Trek! If that same level of success can be replicated, then we shall have adventures for a long time to come!
Klingons–there’s a whole bunch of stories to be told with those guys that wouldn’t come with the canon baggage that a Khan story would have. I also like the Fleet Captain Garth storyline–that’s ambiguous enough to avoid any canon issues.
No Khan – Period! There’s no need for it. If they want to resurrect villian they should use the M-5 Computer and Dr. Daystrom. There are so many reasons why, in the alternate reality, that the M-5 would be more valuable than ever.
Thesis:
M-5 was designed to explore space so that humans or other sentient beings would not be at risk from the dangers of the unknown. Since the Vulcan race has been reduced to 10,000+ members, they would be likely to completely withdraw from all space exploration for many hundreds of years until they repopulate. I would dare to venture that the Vulcans would withdraw their membership in starfleet as well as the Federation and outlaw all space exploration by their species until their numbers are sufficient for the inherent risk. Spock would be granted immunity from this law because there are two of him.
Without the Vulcans being active participants in space exploration, the federations’ charter to explore strange new worlds will be drastically curtailed. In fact, without the Vulcans being active participants in starfleet and the Federation, the entire nuetral zone security arrangement will be altered in the extreme. My guess would be that Starfleet will need to assign all manned vessels so that they are available to protect against Neutral Zone incursions.
Introduce the M-5…a guided starship to do the exploration of strange new worlds. The M-5 concept could be given a total renovation in this new paradigm. In fact, I wouldn’t even put it on the Enterprise, but rather, put in on a custom designed starship with Admiral Pike being in command and Daystrom being…well…Daystrom. The M-5 would be programmed with Daystrom’s quirks blended with Pikes strategic insights.
The Enterprise would be in the group of four starships sent to test the M-5 in the war-game excersise along with the Excalibur, Lexington. We all know what would insue next, but Kirk & the E would survice to launch a counter attack.
One new trick the M-5 would have is the ability to assimilate other starships to turn on their human inhabitants and join M-5 in a quest to destroy the enemies of the Federation.
This movie would be bad-ass on every level and I would be thrilled to discuss the entire thing shot-by-shot with the Supreme Court.
re: “[we're discussing] the merits of one philosophy over another more than any specific ideas. It’s more about what’s philosophically right to do.”
Finally! Philosophy! At least they’re talking Star Trek this time and not Star Wars. Yes!
Tom Hanks could play Kahn!
;)
It should be 0%, not 50/50. Sorry guys, but you can’t improve an original story.
Please don’t do Khan. There are dozens if not hundreds of other Trek universe villains you can revisit. Don’t do Khan.
I say No to Khan . I suggest Telling the story of Commodore Matthew Decker (Robert Downey Jr?) and the U.S.S. Constitution , and showing it’s battles with the Planet Killer in the opening sequence before the credits .
You can show this machine eating planets , then have our fine folks Kirk and co , discover the damaged ship and the now deranged Decker . and show an expanded , version of the Doomday Machine , it would be supburb . IMHO
1. Khan should not show up in the next sequel, because it’s totally jumping the shark. Make us wait for it.
2. Khan’s appearance would not be a revenge story in any way, because the whole Ceti-Alpha thing is almost 100% certain to not happen again.
3. Using Khan would only make sense if ANOTHER SHIP or ANOTHER EMPIRE found the Botany Bay and Khan succeeded in commandeering their ship, rebuilding their army and/or some other way of meeting Kirk and having the advantage.
4. Khan’s loyal genetically engineered soldiers should be real characters, with real motivations and superior intellect enough to question their leader.
5. STOP SUGGESTING LATINOS FOR KHAN. Although he’s clearly not Muslim, he’s clearly not Latino. Center of gravity: Indian or Indo-Persian. SPACE SEED novelization gives him a mother with a Jewish first name (Sarina). Considering that one of KO’s execs is Iranian and precedent matters to KO… all y’alls need to be thinking of Middle Eastern actors for Khan.
Khan: a title for a ruler in Turkic and Mongolian languages.
Singh: derived from Sanskrit word for Lion
At the end of STAR TREK 09 are we now not some years ahead of ourselves? In the original timeline, straight after the Academy, Kirk was assigned to the Farragut and Spock to the Enterprise with Captain Pike.
Due to circumstances in the new timeline Kirk and the team are bought onto the Enterprise years before the TOS “5year mission”.
Unless JJ takes a massive leap forward, shouldn’t we explore this new period between the end of ST09 and “Where No Mans Gone Before”?
If anything Kirk should now take the Enterprise into the events of “The Cage” – How about a story of “Number One” (that female on the bridge) coming into the story for a short time displacing Spock after a temporary “Grade Reduction to Science Officer” for some misdemeanor?
I always though the Theologians story could have been much bigger, sort of “Forbidden Planet” style except this time we find some survivors. Kirk becomes the “caged animal”, he get’s the girl thrown at him BUT THIS TIME we visit Kirks memories with Vina, not Pikes.
As with so many Star Trek stories a B Plot could be constructed to more usefully deploy Spock, the crew, and the Enterprise until they ultimately rescue Jimmie boy.
After this story is told we now move closer to the original timeline where Kirk would have taken the Enterprise after his few years on the Farragut.
Then and only then when we’ve moved along the alternate time line far enough should we start to talk about Kahn, Kingons and other TOS episodes.
More space battles. More aliens. More Red Shirt deaths. More sex. More violence. More humor. More lens flare!
Hmmm,
Initially I wanted a new adventure personally. However if Khan is a go maybe we can get both … in the sense there could be a totally different ending – so not necessarily Space Seed re-tread, but a new story based on the premise.
I’d have to say ‘good luck’ for finding the actor to play the man. Certainly Antonio Bandera does not feel right for the part. Will need to be much stronger than Nero.
Is certainly fun thinking of the possibilities!
Don’t want Khan in the sequel.
But I’m with those who’ve thought Bob & Alex were just pulling our leg here.
What worries me much more in their interview is the apparent inclination to stick with Spock&Uhura line rather than Spock&Kirk.
Can’t we have at least both?!
I’ve nothing against Spock and Uhura, but to make their interactions at least as interesting as Spock & Kirk interactions (which WERE interesting in the movie), Uhura has to be made at least as interesting as Kirk. Or the Doctor. Yet she wasn’t there yet.
We’ve seen some intriguing bits of her and of her relations with Spock, but if we are to be stuck with that line, I wish she could be explored further, and made as big a character as the Main Three. Otherwise it won’t be a fair replacement – but I hope it won’t be a replacement but rather an addition.
With nearly two-thirds of those voting in the polls saying it’s a bad idea, and the writers and producers looking at the next story idea chiefly with $-shaped lenses, hopefully they’ve already figured out that this proposal is a clunker.
Guys, it would be a shame if you resurrected the franchise just to kill it in the next film with a bad, dull and uninspired idea.
I don’t have an issue with the Khan character being in the sequel… I just don’t want a remake of TWOK.
Oh you idiots.
You already screwed up the Kobayashi Maru test, don’t do Khan.
I vote for Carol Marcus! Spock has a girl, now Kirk needs a love life! And find a way to work in Gary Mitchell while you are at it!
And since we still have Spock Prime around, maybe he could show the crew something completely new that only he knows about that none of us have seen before and it becomes completely mind boggling!
Just my $.02
While I’m strenuously against another khan “ride”, I understand that,for the broader audience(,unlike us old,nerdy fans) it could be a big draw.Heck, I’d go along for the ride(probably more than once).I’ll buy what the JJ & O & K team are selling.
As far as the “conforming-with-canon”debate goes,aren’t we in new territory,BEFORE the 1st 5-year mission begins??(not to mention the “event-changing” time-travel facet of the ST09 story.)Give Pike/Kirk/Spock/McCoy some space & “new story” opportunities on the big screen, before going with remakes of the original 78 episodes(although I admit,even THAT will work, IF given the big-screen/big-budget treatment.)
Just FYI, O & K, I’m going to see ST09 on the 3 dollar screen tomorrow,for the 6th, & last time(before buying the DVD,when it comes out).Love the movie.Extremely well done!
I vote for a large protagonist/antagonist story that CLEARLY brings out the difference between the Federation & all the surrounding Empires(Pike should positively SHINE in this story, & serve as the defining “mission statement”for Kirk’s remaining life in Starfleet;ALONG with his passion for exploration).
A thought just occurred to me;perhaps flesh out the First Federation(from the Corbomite Maneuver episode),as a powerful ally of the UFP.It always bothered me how many imperial enemies were out there,opposed to the Federation.What about a friendly power out there,NOT a part of us,but working in cooperation with us?
229
or Gilbert Godfried, or David MaCallum. Or since Marvel’s breaking ground with crossing and breaking race barriers with their established characters maybe Dave Chapelle….or cross race and gender and have Tatum Oneal. It would fit with everything else. It’d be perfect!
I think they were joking around. There is no way they would put Khan in their second Trek movie.
TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN (ONE) HAS GONE BEFORE
Let’s take that VERY IMPORTANT line to heart, and do a story that takes us where we have NOT gone before. You can still intertwine classic Star Trek references throughout the story, without the old Trek “becoming” the new story. We haven’t even heard Bones say “He’s dead Jim” yet. :)
There’s a trek novel out there about how Kirk inadvertently causes the death of a planet by triggering a nuclear war….
The details are a little fuzzy in my mind, but I seem to recall the Enterprise causing a nation-state’s test-missile to arm itself and target another country… Kirk tries to stop it, fires phasers or whatever at the missile, but it’s too late and the target nation launches a full-blown attack, causing a nuclear holocaust.
It is only later that we find out that it wasn’t the Enterprise that caused the disaster to begin with….. but I completely forgot what was actually the source of the original missile issue…..
Some version of that might be interesting….
(no Khan yet…. save him for part 3)
I’m hoping that there are good original stories out there — the well can’t be dry. Insurrection and Nemesis can’t be the only examples of what happens when they try for new. The writers aren’t bound to TOS or TNG history anymore — so the darned galaxy is wide open.
Weirdly, I really liked the novel Uhura’s Song — probably too Ewok/kids movie. Some of Diane Duane’s stuff was great too.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/My_Enemy,_My_Ally
I really, really REALLY hope they DON’T do Khan!
PLEASE, guys!
Ugh… Khan is pretty much the last thing I want to see.
The Wrath of Khan was an amazing movie. We all know it was. We don’t need to see it again.
Orci/Kurtzman:
Use Khan in the sequel!!!!
Why noy jsy make up a new villian tht is challenging for our TOS crew tht make it more better The 11th movie was great but dnt put khan in this only be one orignal khan thts it
#62–ya see thats the thing…Pike ended up in a wheelchair but we DON’T KNOW IF HE WAS PARALYZED, or if it was a temporary thing…
as for the next film’s villian, rehash previous Trek but DIFFERENT Trek… AND a prequel to 24th century Trek… like first contact with the Bajorans pre-Occupation…maybe have the movie begin with peace with Romulus, only to have a faction led by Section 31 start a Maquis-like Federation rebellion into which the remaining Vulcans enter..leading to the verge of Federation civil war…and the leader of the rebellion: Captain Garth of Izar, with his sidekick being either Kirk’s brother or Sybok LOL…and then enter the little-mentioned Debrune (the offshoots of the Romulans merely mentioned in novels and on the promotional site for this years film, the one giving glitzy flash views inside Nero’s ship with dossiers on Federation species from a Romulan perspective) to help save the day…the film ends with the remaining misguided Vulcans being pardoned (Thanks to Sarek and elder Spock) by the Federation and settling on the Debrune homeworld and teaching the Debrune about the teachings of Surak…with elder Spock finally getting Reunification of the Romulans and the remains of Vulcan but with the added Debrune…then we hear at the very end of the film about a scientist whom Kirk knocked up in the Academy beginning work on a Temporal Device meant to rewind time in an isolated area, in an attempt to bring back Vulcan…an alternate-reality Genesis device…the scientist, of course, is Carol Marcus (or in this timeline, Caroline Marcus)…
Hey Bob and Alex,
I’ve got the title for the next movie – Star Trek: The Lack of Khan
Let see come up with something original for the new and old fans alike or be lazy and re-make something yet again..
If you do go lazy then add stuff like khan back on earth to show what kind of person (augment) he really was. Add to it at least. Oh don’t make the SS Botany Bay the size of the death star either..
@ 253. SciFiFan
> Oh don’t make the SS Botany Bay the size of the death star either..
Ha ha… The Botany Bay will actually look like a tooth pick next to this new Enterprise.
I just saw Transformers 2. I have lost all hope for the Star Trek sequel. I won’t go into why because I don’t think I can politely endure the bickering that would follow. Suffice to say, if I hadn’t been on a date I would have walked out.
255 – yes. bad.
Whether villains or not, how ’bout the two near-blackface-jive-talking-gold-toothed robots from Transformers II?
Wow, the first transformers is on TV tonight — now it seems like Gone With The Wind compared to the second one. All the lame ebay stuff was actually fairly clever.
And speaking of weak writing — and I know producers Orci and Kurtzman didn’t write it — The Proposal even managed to make Betty White unfunny.
Maybe she could be in the sequel.
Come on! Something original and lets sideline or at least marginalize a villain in the next one and do something creative. I’ve said it before, some interesting action-adventure SCI-FI story involving exploration and mystery.
having just gotten out of the theatre seeing trek for the fourth time, we should have faith in bob and alex (and jj)! the film, is, AWESOME. fourth time around, i found it more enjoyable than the first time i saw it, nearly two months ago.
that being said, khan might be too iconic to touch in a sequel. there are nicer, more subtle ways to acknowledge the original series in the next film and weave canon into the story, as was so aptly done in this one, and still have the antagonist be an original character with a plausible backstory.
that being said, i would concur with a large voice on these boards that calls for the story to harken back to exploration and science. surely the ending of ST09 perfectly positioned the Enterprise for the original five year mission of “exploration”…
Don’t do it. You can’t pull it off.
I think what Bob is saying, in his typical ‘have fun with the fans’ kind of a way, is that Khan may be in the next film. Or he may not be in the next film.
I’m onto you now Orci! lol. You play us a much as Shatner does!
I’m not saying that it can’t work, but Khan seems to obvious.
Why would you guys want to put yourself behind the eight ball like that? A new film with Khan would have ridiculous fanboy expectations that no film could live up to… No matter how good the film is it is going to be compared to TWOK unless you were to throw us some type of major curve ball. Something like Khan is a good guy in the new timeline. Besides who could replace the great Ricardo Montalban?
If your going to bring in an iconic villian why not bring back the Borg? It would be great to see Kirk and Spock have a go at the Borg. Only thing is they can’t be like the Borg as we saw later in TNG and other series. They would have to be mean, very scary and above all very smart. I would want the Borg from “The Best of Both Worlds” only on steriods.
I also think the Borg would have more commercial appeal to a broad audience.
My wish list would also include:
a) The return of Leonard Nimoy as Spock Prime and please don’t kill him off.
b) No love triangle between Kirk, Uhura and Spock (to 90210 for my taste) there are plenty of hot green chicks in the universe for Kirk to spend his time with.
c) A major film star that could take the box office to the next level.
d) The return of William Shatner as Kirk prime in a role (I don’t care if it lasts ten seconds + is at the end of the credits) that would give the original version of Kirk the proper ending/dignity he deserves. You guys were right about not having him in this film (although I think that scene could have worked) please try and find a way to get Kirk prime/Shatner involved next time.
Whatever way you guys go I’m sure the finished product will turn out great just like the current film did.
P.S. I’m not trying to sound like a suck up here. It’s what I really believe. You guys truly did a wonderful job with the characters and making the series fun again for the first time in a very long time. .. Great job all around.
My vote is for bringing back Garth of Izar.
We can see the battle of Axanar (which Kirk and crew, due to this alternate universe, are involved in, with perhaps the Romulans or Klingons as the antagonists), and we can witness Garth’s descent into madness, and perhaps a climactic ship-to-ship duel between the two captains.
As for Khan, he was done perfectly the first time. Why mess with perfection? Isn’t that what got us horrible remakes of classic films like The Day the Earth Stood Still, A Star is Born, and soon-to-come, Forbidden Planet?
Okay,
I really REALLY enjoyed the new movie, I saw it 3 times, but a lot of the credit must go to Abrams, the actors, and ILM as well as Orci and Kurtzman. Not to mention that these characters are WELL established as were many of the events that occurred in the film; Kobyashi Maru, Sarek disapproving Starfleet, Spock being bullied (TAS)Kirk with green women, etc. So why go to all the trouble (and risk of alienating potential fans) of creating an alternate time line, presumably to have the creative freedom to write new stories with the young TOS crew, when all you’re going to is chicken out and rip off TOS? Abrams said that revisiting an old episode was not out of the question and now a 50/50 chance of revisiting Khan?
What the hell guys?
The reality of that big blank piece of paper sinking in now?
I don’t understand. It’s Star Trek.
You have a wonderful bunch of legendary characters in an equally legendary starship warping into the ultimate mystery that is outer space to go anywhere, anytime in anyway you choose. It’s science fiction guys. ANYTHING is possible.
Or perhaps, all that choice is the problem.
http://tinyurl.com/mb5cu2
Let me get this straight…… in order to write new stories, they created a new time-line (sacrificing the entire planet of Vulcan in the process, I might add)…… just to write OLD stories?
Come on guys….. leave Khan alone and write something new!
#264 – perfectly put!
This is at least the third time this stupid idea has come around in the past month, and every time it has been shot down in flames by the majority (go look at the current poll – only 9%, at time of posting this, think that a Khan story is a good idea!)
NEW stories!! Otherwise, what’s the point?
New, cutting edge sfx, a younger cast, and a $350M budget will NOT improve the Khan saga.
Focus on moving YOUR Trek forward. Deepen the character relationships. Uhura’s with Spock? How does that work for them? Let’s find out. Scotty’s a renegade genius? Show us what he invents. Chekov’s going through puberty? What happens next?
See my past posts about mining ideas from Horatio Hornblower and “The Wrong War” done with Klingons. But, make it NEW for us.
Or… spend ungodly money and redo “The Way to Eden.” Yea, brother…
to say never to tell another story involving certain characters because that person they are iconic, is a bit silly. Using that logic, no story should about great characters should never be told again.
Don’t do another Superman movie, because he’s to Iconic.
No more James Bond Movies because he’s to Iconic.
Since The Dark Knight was such a great movie, no one shold ever write a Batman story involving the Joker ever again…..Because He’s to Iconic.
Come on now. I mean sure I agree that if , let’s say they, do five more movies with this cast, I would like a number of them to involve new ideas and stories. At the same time, I wouldn’t mind seeing a cinematic version of the Balance of terror or even a more fleshed out version of Shore leave. That would be realy cool. As far as being afraid to have new stories on our favorite characters because of the possibility that it may not be good, I’m sorry you have to take chances sometimes. Even if it’s bad it does not diminish the original.
I remember once reading a post from someone sarcastically thanking George Lucas for ruining his child hood. The was one of the most absurd things that I ever heard. First of all, the much of the Original Trilogy is just as clumsy as the prequels, but that’s another argurment. Secondly, if you felt great about it once, the love for it cannot be dimished by anything else. Caddyshack II, changes nothing about the greatness of Caddyshack.
I was nine when Star Trek II was released. I loved that movie and once I got my hands on that VHS copy, I probably watched three times a day for the next two years. I watched it, slow mode it, disecting every scene possible. Even if they remade TWOK, it couldn’t taint my impression for the original version. The Transformers animated , as abysmal as it is, has no effect on how I love and view Transformers G1.
Hey but what do I know, I am the same person that likes The Motion Picture and that of the first six, it is the closests to the origianlal TV show.
NO!
I’m of two minds here. It is a good story, but the original episode, as good as it is, still suffers from 60s television’s lack of sophistication.
If nothing else, it would be nice to see Kirk defeat Khan with something a little more weapony than a hollow plastic tube. That was really embarrassing. The whole fight is pathetic by today’s standards, so I wouldn’t mind an update.
Heck, they never even actually saw each other in TWOK. I was hoping they’d duke it out. Shat was still in fairly good shape then. A version would finally be Kirk’s chance to kick Khan’s ass real good.
I’m willing to keep an open mind about this.
You can throw me on the “No Khan” list too. I would, however, LOVE to see the Doomsday machine make a comeback on the big screen. I don’t know if any of you have played Star Trek: Shattered Universe, but there was a great mission where 2 Terran Capital ships were controlling the Planet Killer and using it to destroy Klingon worlds, with the Excelsior coming to the rescue and saving the Klingon homeworld. I’d like to see that adapted (first of all from the mirror universe to ours) into a workable story.
Another idea on a related note, is a mirror universe crossover. I would pay big bucks to see the USS Enterprise face off against the ISS Enterprise. It’s always fun for the actors too. You could visibly see how much fun the cast was having playing evil versions of themselves in “Mirror, Mirror” and “In a Mirror, Darkly”
What better Trek villain can you get than James T. Kirk from another universe? (and of course the bearded Spock)
Also, it would be possible to have the new Enterprise go against the old Constitution class if Nero never went back in time in the Mirror Universe.
Oh the possibilities for fanboys…
Put me on the NO KHAN list, but if you must, then I cast my vote for Antonio Banderas (too easy, I know – but…)
I think if done well then a Khan story would work well with today’s audiences but i hope that the writers aren’t going to just listen to the fans. I think what they did with Star Trek in the first movie was great and that needs to be carried on throughout the 2nd movie and that is the mainstream audiences come first.
I would love to see some strange new worlds and familiar aliens, maybe Khan could appear at the end and kind of set up what the 3rd movie would be about.
I digress – what ever they decide the 2nd one needs to be bigger, better and advertised way better than the first one internationally.
I think some folks are reading too much into this 50/50 comment.
Remember, these guys are a couple of jokers, particularly when they appear together.
I beleive what they mean by 50/50: Either Khan will be there, or he won’t!!
NO KHAN!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can’t say that with more passion that was done brilliantly before make your own adventure. The media will do the same thing it did when Next Gen made the second episode Where no one has gone before that this trek can’t come up with a new show so they will rehash an old one.
I’d go for a completely original story in the first sequel, but perhaps finish up the film with the discovery of the Botany Bay. Then deal with Khan in the third film.
Frankly, Khan and his gang would find it far harder to take over a huge ship of 1,100 people than the original little 430 people, so the story would have to be different from the start.
Also, if Spock Prime has given Starfleet the lowdown on the other universe’s ‘future history’ you might end up with a different story where perhaps a MACO team was sent out to find Khan, something went wrong and the crew of the Enterprise has to sort out the situation!
More Klingon’s and Gorn in the next movie! put Nurse Chapel in there too on Screen and also put the MACO’s or Starfleet Marines in!
Two words, Bob… NO KHAN!!!!!!
This has been done before, and done well both in the original series and Star Trek II. Lets see an original story for once please.. You can use things from the series, like the doomsday machine, or errand of mercy, but only as a jumping off point, make it your own, make it original and make it spectacular!!!
If they have Khan they can call it. Star Trek. The Wrath of Khan Part Deux.
I really like the idea of using the approach the used in the first movie — new story elements with some of the original universe peaking through.
Without doing a remake of anything, they could borrow aspects from several episodes. For a few minutes of screen time, “The Deadly Years” might be fun to play with, but the problem there would be finding older actors who could be convinving as an older Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Sulu and Chekov . . . ;)
NOOOOOOOOO KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!
Right now film-makers seem to be stuck in this REMAKE rut. A lot of movies coming out right now are remakes. I want to see something ORIGINAL.
Star Trek is MUCH MORE than a villain bent on revenge … get back to what Star Trek is about — EXPLORATION — to explore strange NEW worlds; to seek out NEW life and NEW civilizations; to boldly go where no one has gone before.
There are so many worlds out there to explore and new challenges … I want to see something new and original.
I do agree the movie needs to include familiar elements, but it definitely needs to focus on something new & fresh.
You took a huge risk on “rebooting” Star Trek … don’t waste it by retelling old stories that have been done extremely well and should not be messed with (ie, Khan). Focus on something that is familiar but yet doesn’t have much history behind it. Some on this post have mentioned Garth of Izar. I kind of like that idea. But there are many many other possibilities out there.
Don’t forget … you guys have put Kirk in the Captains chair 7 YEARS SOONER than in the Prime Timeline! So you have 7 years of space to fill even before we get to the events in the Prime Timeline. So basically Kirk & Company are doing the Voyages that Captain Pike did in the Prime Timeline. Lots of opportunities here!!
Also, you have destroyed Vulcan! That has HUGE ramifications on the galaxy! Why not explore some of those elements. This new timeline will unfold differently than the prime because of the huge changes made.
There are so many possibilities of new & fresh stories … let’s see them and have something that focuses more on the exploration. Star Trek has had it’s fair share of villains bent on revenge … time to do something different and amazing.
Nooooooooo!!!!!!
I am not oppossed to Khan being used but worried about the following.
Before Nero Is sent back everything In the Star Trek Universe Is as It was before.This means Khan’s back story would have to remain.This means
the Eugenics Wars In the 1990’s.Now they can use the books explantion Is all the conflicts In the world In the 1990’s were part of a much larger
conflict the world wasn’t aware of publiclly.Once Khan Is revived they
can go whatever they want but they have to keep the backstory to make
the rules most pre 2009 fans excepted.They won’t do the bottle show Space Seed was but would do something with Space Seed as the starting point.
Mr. Orci Wondering if Q or a Q can have a Camio in your next Trek Film? having Q appear for a few seconds would be cool and it would tell us that Q is in your universe too! the Crew and such wouldn’t have to know who he is but it would be a nice thing to do!
To me, it makes perfect sense to steer away from Khan (no one is gonna beat Ricardo’s Khan) and do something like this: Q, but with a twist.
It makes sense to me that the Q may have something to say about the fact that there is a new alternate timeline. Perhaps Q himself (DeLancie) shows up and proclaims himself as Trelane (sorry if I didn’t spell that right) and starts messing with things. I won’t go into any specifics about anything he messes with…just keep time travel out of it. It could be a real hoot, could be a wink to TNG fans and ALSO TOS fans. Heck, if the original actor is still alive and able, put him in as another Q/Trelane. It could be a hoot and excellent sci-fi.
^1. It would be hilarious if they used Walter Koenig’s old joke about the unseen part of Space Seed where Khan really, really had to use the bathroom but it was occupied by Chekov, and when he finally comes out Khan sneered, “I’ll never forget your face!”
My first reaction–no. Then, after reflection, it makes perfect sense.
1) It’s already proven successful. Would almost guarantee an opening for a 3rd film.
2) It would bring a big name actor to play Khan. Javier Bardem has been tossed around here, and I know he could make it iconic in a fresh way. Bringing a veteran, tested actor would raise the bar for performances which felt rushed in the ST09…
3) Combining Space Seed with a modified Wrath of Khan opens the doors for so many parallels with exciting, sometimes major, sometimes subtle differences caused by the new timeline. There would be no trouble reworking a 2hr movie (in other words, no shortage of content to take off from)
4) It would be Kirk-centric, whereas the last was primarily Spock-centric IMO… Chris Pine is riding a wave of popularity, I’d say his portrayl made a bigger mark than Quinto’s, at least to the mainstream.
Just my thoughts. Would I prefer a Khan movie? No, because I would like something totally fresh. But, Khan would be almost guaranteed success, unless it takes a less-cerebral turn. The director will be just as important as the writers. Not sure who could replicate JJ’s approach (if you doubt his ability, watch the Lost pilot).
So, Khan would be the easy, already tested path. Something more cerebral and new would be the more risky, difficult path. I think Bob, Alex, and Damon could do the cerebral one. Perhaps even setup a job for Damon on TV post-LOST with a interstellar event that will provide a backdrop for the series & 3rd movie…
The second movie is not just a bridge to the third, it must be better than the 1st one…
I like what was said about Kirk and co. having the voyages that Pike’s crew would have had; send this new crew to Talos IV and see how JTK would have dealt with being put in “The Cage!” :)
sooner or later they have to do khan anyway
it’s inevitable and eventually the only logical thing to do
but it better should be incredible, if they are not up to scratch, right now
they should better wait for a while
There’s plenty of other Trek villains that were interesting enough to get a second visit. Khan already had his in TWOK. What about Kang or Chang or some other Klingon? I think it’d be much better for us to get a new look at a villain that isn’t already iconic… in fact it may elevate one to icon status.
50/50? Should we infer that if the odds are that close it’s because Orci and Kurtzman can’t think of anything better?
Orci/Kurztman: The bottom line is you guys have to just tell the best story for the next film that you can. And if Khan is where you feel the pull of a great story, then that’s where you HAVE to go.
Even though I DON’T want to see Khan, I’d rather see Khan done great than some other story you didn’t have the muse for done poorly.
boxker/no.267:
Superman, Batman, and Bond can be re-interpreted because they first appeared on the page. Montalban’s performance goes part and parcel with who we know Khan to be, and yes, the same can be said about all of the rejigged original characters, but I really think Khan, Harry Mudd, Q, etc. should remain as touchstones of the franchise as it was at that time.
Re-interpret the Cardassians (since they got a mention first time round), or some such race (but Lord, please, let the overused Borg RIP) that won’t inspire such a fierce reaction… but maybe that’s exactly what they want… are we all part of some meta-marketing experiment? Roberto? Alex?
And I agree with 289. I’d rather see an interesting but underdeveloped character like Chang fleshed out more. He has the resources of the Klingon Empire behind him, and can become a permanent nemesis to Kirk.
And why did the TOS series Klingons look human? Were they cosmetically modified to infiltrate the Federation?
Telling the story of how the Federation and the Klingon Empire first cross swords and why would also be a very interesting story we never got to see in TOS.
Let’s see the next movie would be released in 2011, which is…
a) 45th Anniversary of Star Trek
b) 10 years since The Undiscovered Country
c) 10 years since Enterprise began
I’d go for a Klingon film. Maybe a radical redesign for that race… somekind of mutation that can be put down to the genetically engineered virus seen during “Affliction”.
Bad guy should be Kor, Kang or Koloth. Anyone remember a DS9 episode called Once More Unto the Breach? In it some backstory was established how resentment between Kor and Martok began. Martok was not from an Imperial house, and discriminated against because he didn’t have “royal” blood. Say for instance, this augment disease was the basis for a caste system? Yeah, I know nu-universe means new rules… but I can’t help myself – filling in the gaps between series was a major part of the appeal for me.
Please, let’s have a story of exploration. That doesn’t mean you can’t have an exciting, suspenseful story. If you’re re-watching TOS episodes, look again at “The Corbomite Maneuver.” The Enterprise is on an exploratory mission and encounters Blalock’s ship. When they have a chance to escape, they don’t take it because their mission is to explore, to increase our knowledge.
Obviously now we can have a much more expansive story than that one was, but we can still have a story where the characters get themselves into trouble because they’re curious.
And although I’d prefer an original story, you can also do the occasional homage to original sources. If Kirk and Spock make a stop to gather information at a particular world, who’s to say Harry Mudd or Cyrano Jones, for instance, couldn’t be their contact, just for that one scene?
291. zirclet
People once said the same about Jack Nicholson’s Joker, if we had never went back to the Joker because of his, at the time, Iconic performance, we would have missed out on Heath’s interpretation.
I’m not saying that’s Khan should be in it, I’m just saying that logic of not touching a character because of some one’s great performance is not a good one. It might work, it might not. I hated Katie Sackoff’’s Starbuck, but I loved Jaimie Bamber’s Apollo, and James Olmos’ Admiral Adama.
Personally, if they are looking to keep Star Trek new and action packed, they may looked to the beginnings of the Klingon war.
However, I think a new original story will make it easier for them to keep it appealing to all audiences.
I think it would be better to take Steven Seagal as Bad Guy for the next movie!
Perhaps a chinese Restaurant is travelling around 200 Years in Space and selling Chinese food. But one time the klingons are not satisfied with the meal an kill all Chinese people at the ship. Just a boy survives “Steven Seagal” and he wants revenge! He steals the newest ship of the fleet by his martial art techniques and gets some other people to join him for revenge, because they hate klingons of the past. Now the fleet commanders say Kirk and the Enterprise is the only ship who can stop them, before they reach the neutral zone! And if they fale there will be a big war against the klingons! Yeah! With Steven Seagal Action!
Oops… my bad. 293. b) should read 20 years.
Geese. Has it really been that long…
The most interesting thing about this is imagining who would play the role of Khan. In these P.C. days I doubt they could get away with casting a Latino as a Sikh.
Maybe this time McGivers isn’t the one who betrays Kirk, if Kirk is going to be betrayed at all.
Despite my having said that about the casting, there might be some interesting symmetry in having the role played by Alex Newman, who played the Augment who actually referred to Khan and the Botany Boy in an “Enterprise” episode, and then played out his character’s final moments much as Khan did in TWOK, in what was probably a deliberate homage to TWOK.
For what its worth, I say they’ve earned our trust. Whatever they decide to do, and no matter how it may sound ahead of time, I’m sure it will be another great movie.
Also:
Someone mentioned,the other day,about doing a story on the resettling of the surviving Vulcans,by Spock Prime, on a new planet:
Now THERE’S “Wagon Train to-the-Stars”/frontier planet/exploration/opposition from some antagonist-villain,who claims the planet as theirs’/Starfleet(& Pike/Kirk/Spock/Bones)to-the-rescue;ALL in one movie.
These might be the main,”action” ingredients for a great STAR TREK 2.
Sigh Recycled material belongs to James Cawley and his gang. What ever happened to originality?
Let’s face it, we’re ALL going to the next movie. It remains to be seen whether we’ll all see it 3 times each.
Having said that… NO Khan!
What about a story in which the Enterprise itself is the problem.
Engineers made a big mistake in their calculations…And during a Warp 9 Try… the warp engine is getting destroyed.
Also a structual problem is growing in the ship. No Help. Days of Repairing. No Contact to the fleet. Just about to surviving in space…And there is a insane Space Monster at the ship who likes to eat Red Shirts….And this Space Monster is called Ronaldo from Brasil (the fat old one, not the guy from portugal)…And the fleet hears the ball tapping …tap tap tap… tap….tap tap tap…. tap….And all getting insane.
I’d prefer it if Khan can RIP. You can’t replicate the original performance and to change him would defeat the object of bringing him back in the first place. Star Trek has had a lot of people as villans but I would like to see a movie where the threat is a “Thing” again. I know TMP was a bit dull but the concept of a mysterious entity was a good one. It could be done better this time. The thing about most villans is that their behaviour can be explained with some kind of back story and as soon as you do this you humanise them and make the audience empathise with them. These do not make good villans in my view. The best villans are cold calculating killers who do are completely removed from all the values we hold dear. (The borg and Kahn for example) and thus, these are the best two movies as well.
I’m completely borderline on this issue. I think if we got more than three movies from this cast, we’d all be for Khan, but since we only get 2 more (probably) I wouldn’t necessarily want to use up a movie on a character or story that’s been done.
I don’t envy you Alex and Bob!
Screw that idea. Get creative or go home. Don’t recycle what we’ve already seen.
Presuming there’s only 2 movies left, and this “reboot” “re-imagining” is for “non-fans” as much as it is for fans, then there are only two options for the next two movies: Klingons and Khan.
As fans we’re borderline, but I think the “non-fans” want to see Klingons and Khan. Of course the argument could be ‘rent one of the movies”
PLEASE no Khan.
It won’t make any difference to the mainstream audience – in all likelihood, they’re not gonna know who Khan is. But fans will. OK, some of us would probably like it, but speaking for this fan (and a few others I know), PLEASE NO KHAN.
Would be interesting to actually bring back Nero – it’s a bit open as to whether he actually died… but ‘KILL EVERYONE’ is a bit of a difficult motive to continue on with for a villain.
COMPLETELY original story, no Khan, maybe some cameos/small parts for popular TOS villains e.g. Kang/Kor/Koloth.
How would the Romulans react to the destruction of Vulcan, which is technically their ancestral home? How are the Vulcans gonna be treated now that they’re a refugee race? Are the Klingons or the Gorn gonna try to take advantage of a perceived Federation weakness? What about the Breen? What are relationships like with the Cardassians?
These are interesting questions that could be answered in the new film.
Here is what you do to address Khan. Have Spock onboard and tell Kirk to immediately destroy the SS Botany Bay. End of Story.
“It would be hilarious if they used Walter Koenig’s old joke about the unseen part of Space Seed where Khan really, really had to use the bathroom but it was occupied by Chekov, and when he finally comes out Khan sneered, ‘I’ll never forget your face!’ ”
Lmao….Indeed.
A “Khan” story without Ricardo Montalban is like a “Terminator” story without Arnie.
Also “augments” were flogged to death in “Enterprise’s” 4th season, so Khan will be scanned, and come up as ‘just another’ augment. Kirk will know to keep him and his friends on ice because canon has turned his ilk into old news.
The hole fleet is destroyed. And the klingons entered the narada. So probably they have new technology. Also what about saving the romulan plant from being destroyed in 100 years…
There are many questions to be answerd after the movie!
WIth the altered reality, the Botany Bay would just as likely float around in space for many more years until someone finds her. And probablity would suggest that it would be discovered by another ship, or even another race.
Having Kirk find Kahn’s ship has already been done. No way, don’t do it again!
The only way to bring back Kahn is if he gets an altered backstory (due to his ship being found by someone else), and Kahn meets Kirk under totally different circumstances. Perhaps he is discovered by another race, and he takes over their planet. With a plan to return to Earth to take it back over. Or with even bolder plans.
With the timeline changing at the time of Kirk’s birth, you could even have Kahn having been discovered by another ship sometime in the past, say 10 or 20 years earlier than the events seen in the last movie. So Kahn would have had quite a bit of time to gain a foothold on another alien planet. He could have an entire armada at his disposal.
Same villian, but totally different circumstances. That’s the only way it might work (Bob Orci, I know you’re reading).
The whole revenge thing with Kahn can’t be done, because he only wanted revenge because of the death of his wife (and being banished to Ceti Alpha Five. All of which happened later in Kirk’s life. Stay away from that, for sure. You just can’t have that personal story again if you redo Kahn.
…hmm good idea 312.
what about…some parts of the narada went back at time and changed a lot, because the botany bay found these parts…
So we have another timeline! Changing everthing! Huahahahahaha!
Bring new enemies new story-lines new everything… This is an Alternate Time Line… stop revisiting every story and villain the prime timeline had. lets create some new story-lines, etc. Maybe even pull from Enterprise, add some closure like why races like the Xindi were never heard from again, did they die gone what?
#310—”Kirk will know to keep him and his friends on ice because canon has turned his ilk into old news.”
Although I am not necessarily even a proponent of Khan in a sequel, I’m not sure that many are being fair to the concept. Just as it wouldn’t be TWOK rebooted, it wouldn’t be “Space Seed” either.
I think it is more likely that such a story would involve a ship other than the Enterprise discovering the Botany Bay, and that ship being overtaken by Khan after his revival. Of course our heroes would ultimately defeat the “superior intellect”.
“A ‘Khan’ story without Ricardo Montalban is like a “Terminator” story without Arnie.”
…or a Kirk story without Shatner? :)
“Khan will be scanned, and come up as ‘just another’ augment.”
Over 100 years have passed since Soong’s augments were defeated in ENT, and for those who believe that ENT’s timeline had not already been altered from the one in which the events of TOS were depicted, the events in “Space Seed” were originally preceded by the same history.
Remember that Khan’s exodus from Earth in the late 90’s is, in the 2150’s, considered a “myth”—-even by the augments’ most ardent benefactor. It is likely that Starfleet believes that all of the Eugenics War-era augments have long since been eradicated by this point.
I don’t think this is an issue.
264 – Persuasively argued.
Khan is NOT Kirk’s nemesis. Khan is only iconic because the 2nd film was good and everyone misses that. Space Seed was a good episode, but there are many good episodes in TOS. Frankly, though they cut from time to time to an over-the-top Ricardo Montelban, the chess match in space reminds me more of Balance of Terror which was one of the very best TOS episodes. To make Star Trek a viable franchise you need to cultivate a large enough universe and capture some of the mystery, sci-fi element of TOS and TNG. Revisiting old characters like Khan doesn’t help you in that. That’s pandering to the fan base, which we already know was too small to make a decent return. When you think generically of bad guys in Star Trek, you think of Klingons, even though the Romulans were the first to appear if I recall 1st season correctly. Burger King was using Klingons in their marketting though the final film didn’t have them at all. There’s no way you can make a 2nd film and not have the Klingons in it. It can be relatively short but they have to make an appearance. I’m guessing if it’s a 2-film arc, you can have the Klingon part dominate the 3rd film, with their presence hinted in the 2nd film and have the 2nd film center on some conflict or mystery that feels like a TOS episode ( by end of film it turns out to be just the begining of a bigger story…).
thandrahan, that is the most compelling reason I’ve heard for revisiting the whole Khan story. These guys should get back to the core of what made good Star Trek: exploration stories as in “to boldly go…” and not this good guy/bad guy crap designed to placate mainstream audiences.
#295 “I think it would be better to take Steven Seagal as Bad Guy for the next movie”
Hey, if I want to see whales in a Star Trek movie, I’ll simply watch The Voyage Home!
I haven’t read everyone’s posts yet, so if I repeat someone, I apologize — but I wanted to jump in –
Please, no Khan.
There are many, many things to establish in the new universe. The political situations would have been altered due to the early entry of Romulus into the mix. As a minor for instance, a blow up between the Feds and the Klingons might not be stopped by the Organians. Or the Federation might be having problems holding the historic union together.
That plus the idea that we need to always build a story around a villain for every movie is a fallacious one. There are other kinds of situations to be built on these characters, even if we are stuck with the limitations of a movie series and the modern mode of thought that smart stories = boring movies and no box office.
Two more things:
McCoy. We need more. Though the bromance is between Kirk and Spock — the “hero” of Star Trek is created by the triad,, not the duo.
And:
Star Trek is science fiction — could we have some please. ( Yes, yes, quantum theory and all that — I’m talking about something that’s not just a plot device to set new story possibilities.)
Thank you and Good Morning,
No Kahn…. Bad bad bad
I don’t think Khan is a good idea.
You know what I think would be a good idea? Klingons, including a primary FEMALE Klingon villain…I think that would be amazing. I would hope it would be a really well-regarded actress who is convinced to take this as a “fun” role similar to Phillip Seymour Hoffman in J.J.’s Mission Impossible 3…someone who produces an “oh shit!” moment in the trailer. I know it probably sounds kind of crazy, but the first thought I had was Kate Winslet…I can’t ever remember her being a villain or much of a badass but it would be amazing to see her give it a shot.
If you do a Khan story, please don’t mention the Eugenics Wars of the late 1990s (at least ignore the specific dates). Don’t tell us Khan is a product of late twentieth century genetic engineering, for example. The same thing goes for the Third World War. Star Trek is supposed to be our future. Let’s make it consistent with what has actually happened. Be deliberately vague about the future that the audience is supposed to have (if they existed in the Trek universe). That way, the sense of continuity and identification is retained; and it doesn’t look silly and terribly dated in a couple of decades.
The bottom-line is that we want a great story. Nothing else really matters.
I don’t know why everyone keeps calling the Khan (or any other TOS character) idea a tired old retread, while at the same time calling new stories about Kirk and Spock fresh and new. Obviously, any new Khan story would not be Space Seed, it would be a completely different scenario based on existing characters in the Star Trek mythos. I don’t know if I like the idea or not. On one hand, these characters are all out there in the galaxy and their fates in the alternate universe are yet to be decided, but on the other hand, it’s a damn big galaxy and we’ve only seen 79 episodes of a 5-year mission, so there’s a lot of territory to mine without falling back on existing characters. So I would have to agree and give Khan, or Harry Mudd, or any other interesting characters from TOS about a 50/50 chance of showing up.
ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS THIS
USS KELVIN TV SHOW PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CBS COME ON MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!
Yes. MORE McCoy. And how about McCoy mixing it up with Uhura, or Sulu? McCoy is always there between Kirk and Spock, while Kirk and Spock are always talking to everyone else. How about extending McCoy’s relationships with the rest of the bridge family?
#264—-”Let me get this straight…… in order to write new stories, they created a new time-line (sacrificing the entire planet of Vulcan in the process, I might add)…… just to write OLD stories?”
Revisiting an old villain (whose ship is presumably out there regardless of the altered timeline) is not the same as writing an old story.
Some of you guys are approaching this rather narrow-mindedly.
For all those who want something similar to The Dark Knight for ST12, Captain Garth probably is the best character to go with. Unlike Khan, who was simply power hungry, Garth was bug-nuts crazy, and acted very much in the same vein as Nicholson’s and even Ledger’s Joker. And as we all know, crazy is fun to watch.
Re: 327 I just said the same thing. We just watched a new Trek movie about old characters. Of course, there was a large contingent “Why go back? Go forward!” people who were against that too.
#317—”To make Star Trek a viable franchise you need to cultivate a large enough universe and capture some of the mystery, sci-fi element of TOS and TNG. Revisiting old characters like Khan doesn’t help you in that. That’s pandering to the fan base, which we already know was too small to make a decent return.”
Actually, as far as what the “mainstream” identifies as a Star Trek villain—-there is Khan and there is the Klingons. I think it would be more along the lines of pandering to the masses than to the long-established fanbase.
224. Balok
Ooooo, sounds like someone bought their Star Trek under-roos a size too small.
I wasn’t interested in getting in line behind the majority of posters who think Khan is not a good idea. I don’t care what eveyone else wants. Personally, I think it is a good possible story idea if they do decide to go back and revisit old story ideas. I agree that it could be another ship that discovers the Botany Bay and Khan manages to take over that ship and wreak havok on the Galaxy and Kirk and crew have to go up against him…
And, as for my suggestion of Antonio Banderas for Khan, if Ricardo can get away with playing a sikh, then Antonio can. There are too few actors today that have the weight of character to play a heavy like Khan…and Antonio has that weight.
Of course, if you (or anyone else) can name an actor who has the chutzpah to carry the role… I’m listening. And so are Bob and Alex…
But if you guys do decide to do Khan, please do not cast Javier Bardem or someone hispanic. I’m sure Bollywood is chock full of actors who could not only play that role well, but who would make Trek play well in India by virtue of having a Bollywood star in the Khan role.
Khan is, after all, supposed to be Indian.
Re: 332
Watch out of we’ll have the guy who plays Mohinder Suresh play Khan, Grunberg as Harry Mudd, and Quinto making the thing one giant Heroes reunion.
Before there is another villain out for revenge on Kirk, Kirk first has to earn his wrath! And you don’t do that just by passing exams and sleeping with green girls – Nero was after (Old) Spock and Vulcans in general. The one person out to get Kirk specifically in ST09 was Ensign Cupcake – and he got his revenge (sorta) when he did arrest Kirk! So, our young Captain has first do something that makes him enemies.
But if they actually put Khan in the next movie, I’d like to propose a title:
- Star Trek: The Sour Grapes of Khan’s Wrath
Or maybe there could be a B-plot with Andorians, then
- Star Trek: Something Borrowed, Something Blue
would be perfect.
#332—”I’m sure Bollywood is chock full of actors who could not only play that role well, but who would make Trek play well in India by virtue of having a Bollywood star in the Khan role.”
That’s a good idea….someone who is relatively unknown in the States (but portraying a generally well known Trek villain), but regularly draws a crowd in a huge market like India. Now that’s good marketing.
How about casting Aamir Khan in the role of Khan? Do that and you might get Star Trek to be as big in India as it is in the US.
So: Aamir Khan for the role of Khan. Google him and tell me I’m wrong.
Khan was in the second movie (as well as his own ep)… do we want the same thing for the second movie in the reboot??? I mean, we already had a giant spaceship that they went inside to figure out how to stop it… like V’ger. And now Khan? What’s the thrid one going to be, getting Spock’s katra back again??? No thanks. Then they’ll have to make a FOURTH movie to do the g.d. WHALES and round off THAT story arc! Oh, and maybe not be able to bring back all of this new cast on top of it for one movie beyond their 3-pack deal?
Ska-rew that. I’d rather see the Jupiter 2 show up. At LEAST they haven’t done that.
332 dmduncan
“I’m sure Bollywood is chock full of actors who could play that role”
Too bad Amrish Puri isn’t still alive!
“Khan is, after all, supposed to be Indian.”
So is Captain Nemo, but that doesn’t negate the fine acting job James Mason did playing him in Disney’s 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea.
I’ll say it again–NO KHAN!
If the writers want to go back to a TOS ep, go to Balance of Terror and the Romulan Commander (the one played so well by Mark Lenard. Hell, I’ll even suggest Joaquin Phoenix to play the RC!)
Think about it–Starfleet lost seven ships, the Klingons lost 47 ships. It would be perfect timing for the Roms to expand their territory.
However, B of T ended with the RC saying to Kirk, “In a different reality, I could have called you friend,” before he hit the self-destruct. There’s your working title: In a Different Reality. (Nah–Too wimpy.)
Please, NO KHAN. NO BORG. Please try to bring Adirmal Pike into it somehow, and an update on the Vulcan colony would be nice.
Considering how much is changed in the alternate universe, I doubt the Enterprise would be in range to discover Khan and crew. However, another ship might.
The V’Ger incident would still happen, but maybe another starship would be in range at that time. Maybe alternate Kirk and crew don’t survive that long.
Also, the whale probe would still be on its way. Starfleet would still have to deal with that with or without Kirk and crew.
338, yeah, but this is 2009. Those were the days when you had to paint a white man to play an Indian. We aren’t constrained by those rules anymore.
Here’s Aamir Khan’s website:
http://www.aamirkhan.com/
Now you tell me that Khan Noonian Singh isn’t the first thing that comes to mind.
I mean I’d rather NOT see a Khan story, but I have no control over which direction Orci/Kurztman feel they can do the best story.
no khan please new stories !!!!!!!!
put me on the khan list!
No Khan!
Please guys — you have a blank slate, new energy and a whole new realm of possibilities. Use your freaking imaginations.
#334—”Before there is another villain out for revenge on Kirk, Kirk first has to earn his wrath! ”
No one is suggesting a villain who is out for revenge. Khan is already a natural antagonist without that motive. His thirst for power and conquest is motivation enough. That is the whole point. His genetic engineering amplifies the human frailties which might otherwise have been more tempered.
Forget TWOK. A potential story which revisits the character of Khan would have nothing to do with that. It would be about the inherent evils within us and the dangers of irresponsible science. I think those topics are at least as relevant today as they were in 1967.
And it wouldn’t be a retelling of “Space Seed” either—at least not altogether so. In order for Khan to appear at all, a ship (which was previously not in the right place at the right time in the previous timeline) other than the Enterprise would most likely discover the derelict Botany Bay adrift in space. Suddenly, this becomes a very different tale—-yet still ending in a showdown between one of the most colorful villains in Star Trek history and its most colorful hero.
341 dmduncan
Yeah, he’d be great…if he can act. He needs passion and the ability to go between calm and fanaticism in an instant.
Good suggestion.
Look guys, I don’t think it’s just that simple as “do new stories.” Orci and Kurtzman are the ones in whose hands the future of this franchise now rests. And they are people, just like you and me. You can’t just CRANK out a great story about any subject at all. It’s easy to come up with great scenes, but much harder to tie them all together with great stuff in the middle too. Just try it if you don’t believe me.
And they need to feel the story and where it’s coming from. If they just arbitrarily decide to go in any direction the odds are that it won’t end up being that great.
So yes, I agree that I’d rather not see Khan, but I want to see a great sequel, and if Orci and Kurtzman feel that’s where the story THEY can tell best next is, then that’s better than doing something else that won’t be as good.
A great sequel means plenty more sequels after that. But a lousy one instantly puts the future of Trek back in jeopardy.
So I don’t think the focus should be what you or I would prefer to see, but what Orci and Kurtzman think they could do best next. That’s what the franchise depends on.
And if they are going to do Khan, well then, cast somebody like Aamir Khan in the role of Khan who could make Trek a potential blockbuster in India.
I think that if Lindelof, Orci, and Kurtzman chose to revisit Khan—-the casting choice would be the last thing I worried about.
April Webster’s casting work with Bad Robot is practically unmatched in the industry right now. They routinely hit it out of the park.
me thinks it’s now time to get back to the original type of script. Commenting on current world problems in a better future. Let’s again show the younger generation what a positive future can look like. In other words lets hope the future is not a shoot em up video game. Free your mind, your ass will follow…take us out of orbit Mr. Sulu…
This has no doubt come up – if Orci and Krtzman are reading all these posts I admire their dedication – but bringing Khan back would mean explaning away the emabrrassing fact that no-one noticed this eugenics war happening in the 1990s… also Khan must have been around 40 when he left Earth which would mean these genetic experiments had already happened when Space Seed aired…. someone didn’t think that through. Also who’s been building these interstellar DY100 ships, then hiding them? I know there are novels that tie themselves in knots coming up with contrivances to explain all this away so we can still “believe” it, but if you bring Khan back you have to jump through all these same hoops or completely rewrite his backstory and then put up with all the ‘canon-fire’ . Why bother?
#350—-”it’s now time to get back to the original type of script. Commenting on current world problems in a better future.”
I think that Star Trek was better when “exploring the human condition” than when attempting to directly comment on current social issues or what you describe as “world problems”.
Star Trek: The Rehash Of Khan
NO!
P.S. And if Orci and Kurtzman DO decide to do Khan, well then let’s get behind them on it. I know what everyone who is against the Khan idea feels, because I’d rather not see Khan again either. But Khan is the elephant in the room right now, and either way, somebody is not going to get what they want.
So if they choose Khan, that must be what they feel the strongest about, so let them get it out of their system, because it’s THAT feeling that will make it a great movie, and the absence of that feeling which will make it a bad movie.
So let’s get behind them whatever they decide because I’m sure we all want to see another home run for the sequel.
#351—”bringing Khan back would mean explaning away the emabrrassing fact that no-one noticed this eugenics war happening in the 1990s…”
Why is that embarrassing? Star Trek’s timeline is a fictional one, and given the more than 50 time travel stories in the history of Star Trek, who is to say that the timeline wasn’t altered before? If it is a concern at all, the dialogue in the story can simply be vague regarding when this conflict takes place.
Prime Spock would say, “having Khan in the next film? Highly illogical! The character would mean nothing to the new fanbase and the old fans clearly don’t want it! There is nothing to be gained by taking this step!”
Since there is nothing of merit to be accomplished by doing it, MOVE ON TO SOMETHING ELSE!
********************NO KHAN PLEASE********************
I think we should go for an Original KLINGON bad guy… a REAL BADASS!
The Eugenic Wars probably evaporated when the TNG crew ran around in the late 19th century (meeting Mark Twain) in “Time’s Arrow”. It’ not exactly one of my favorite episodes, but since then, nothing said before about the history of the 20th century (and on) has to be true.
What about something completely different: some fans want to see Spock Prime again. (This is a bit difficult: Nimoy is in great shape for his age, but will want to/ can he do another movie?) Spock Prime faces a real dilemma: he knows which star went supernova and destroyed Romulus. He doesn’t have the Jellyfish and that useful “Red Matter” anymore, but maybe he has the knowledge to make more. If he stops that supernova (or if the Romulans evacuate their planet in time), the events of ST09 won’t happen. Sure, the new timeline will cease to exist, but from his POV, is that so bad? His mother, Kirk’s father and the whole planet Vulcan will live much longer, Kirk will have a happier childhood and youth, and Nero stays a hard-working miner and family man.
But if Spock Prime, who is not a famous ambassador in the new timeline, just some old Vulcan, gets caught in Romulan space, the Romulans will regard this as an act of war and start a conflict with the Federation.
What will the Enterprise crew do if they are ordered to stop Spock Prime? Will Spock jr. end up with 2 katras for the price of one?
dmduncan -
I personally know I could have written a better script for Star Trek. No exaggeration. The success of that film is due to the execution and acting and 150 million invested, and least of all due to the writing.
Yes, the writer’s strike is to blame for that. Yes, Orci and Kurtzman and JJ most likely would have made rewrites to address certain issues in the script, but the fact of the matter is, it just wasn’t that well written.
Now, I trust that the team can pull it off again, and make a sequel that is even better.
But the job of a screenwriter IS to crank out great material, original material. Otherwise, that writer is a hack, or just not trying hard enough (transformers I and II…). You can’t use the excuse of them being “people just like you me” to justify the creation a droll, unoriginal script.
I’ve read half the thread so I hope I’m not repeating any other ideas but for me it’s really just whichever idea is stronger. I’m willing to trust the writers and I liked ST(09) because it told a new story based on familiar themes and I’d be happy with more of the same. It doesn’t matter to me if the sequel has mainly TOS elements as long as they’re very different, which Orci and Kurtzman have indicated they would be.
One thing I do like is the idea of starting the film with an updated scene from an old TOS episode, then going into the monologue and starting the main film. It would make it feel like there’s some continuity from the series but that these are “new” adventures.
Personally I think the sequel should look to explore what happens to the Vulcan refugees. That’s the most interesting part of this new universe, particularly how it affects Spock. If you had the Vulcans being resettled on a new planet (with Carol Marcus helping), there’s the possibility for a new story; the Enterprise could find the planet and begin relocating the Vulcans, but be challenged by an alien threat (possibly Klingons or Cardassians) contesting the planet, while Spock has to decide between staying in Starfleet and his relationship with Uhura or helping his people.
As for Khan – I don’t mind either way. You could base a movie off of the premise of “Space Seed” and make it entirely original but I think I’d rather see Khan in a third movie. It made sense bringing the Joker back so soon for TDK because there were other well known villains for future movies, but there aren’t in Star Trek. Better to keep general audiences waiting a bit longer.
I think ending ST(XII) with the Enterprise or another Federation ship investigating a derelict ship floating in space is a great idea. Show us the Botany Bay just before the credits and it’s the perfect way to lead into the third movie. Just my 2 cents worth.
#141. Odkin wrote:On another thred, someone whined “They can’t do the Mirror Universe! That contradicts Orci’s quantum mechanic theories!!” Which I thought was pretty funny given the existence of Spock Prime, and the entire plot of the movie revolving around parallel universes. Just because Spock has no means of travel back to the Prime Universe doesn’t mean that the Prime Universe no longer exists.
Odkin, You totally don’t understand Orci’s MWI QM theory interpretation, nor its application to this movie.
MWI QM specifically states that Spock “Prime” should exist and so should this alternate universe having branched off at the point in time the quantum incursion took place. As a result of that the “Prime” universe will also continue to exist. However MWI QM states that while new parallel universes are branching all the time, it is impossible to travel or otherwise communicate between them. Further, this was a one time event. Another quantum event like time travel would not simply dump the visitors from another universe into this one, it would create a brand new branch with a brand new Captain Kirk, et al., while the one we just got to know would continue on in the alternate universe Prime Spock & Nero just created.
Therefore:
1) The Mirror Universe IS NOT POSSIBLE
Also:
2) The Guardian of Forever DOES NOT EXIST since it does not conform to MWI QM.
3) There will likely be NO TIME TRAVEL STORIES because it would create yet another alternate parallel branching universe with brand new characters. While the present “alternate” characters could time travel, doing so would take the new characters out of the “alternate” universe and into a new one, without “Prime” Spock among other things, and one where Vulcan still exists. Plus there would be two Kirks, Spocks, McCoys, etc. Plus they would never be able to go back to their universe.
A story based around any of these things would be pointless or impossible as long as Bob Orci insists on applying this theory to time travel and parallel universes.
NO KHAN!!! I’ve said it here before and I will say i again–you guys are being paid ALOT of money–come up with an original idea!!
#356—-”The character would mean nothing to the new fanbase…”
Much of the existing fanbase today had no meaningful connection to Khan in 1982 either. Just as with TWOK, it would be up to the story to generate audience interest on its own. In fairness, introducing a new character would require the very same effort.
“… and the old fans clearly don’t want it! There is nothing to be gained by taking this step!”
But much of the backlash against the idea of revisiting Khan is based upon the flawed assumption that such a story would have to be a retelling of an old one.
I’m not among the fans who say that Khan must be revisited. On the contrary—I think the writers can go in pretty much any direction they want. But I also refuse to believe that tapping into a familiar character (under altered circumstances) is automatically a poor idea either.
A good story is a good story.
How about just writing a great original story, lots of battles and action, and at the end of it just show the blown apart hull of the Botony Bay floating by.
Wouldn’t that just be a pisser!
#363 – I’m with you on this one. Kahn as a character and his particular “origins” story would make an effective subject for a blockbuster film.
I also think he presents an effective marketing strategy for Paramount in that of all the guest characters ever introduced in Trek, Kahn is the one most likely to be remembered by a casual viewer: Seinfeld alone made it mainstream. It also provides a new prequel film to a film that already exists (and still holds up pretty well), driving new DVD sales for the catalogue as well.
I don’t need it, would rather see something new, but should it come to pass – I think it could be an amazing movie. New audiences won’t care one way or the other, and indeed may be attracted by a familiar name. Despite the core fans’ protestations here and elsewhere, we’ll probably all go to see it and as long as it meets the standards of the current film, we’ll probably all love it as much.
361
It’s star trek, and movies they can do anything. If they wanted to make a movie about old stories/ideas that meets todays budgets/actors/writers/directors they can do it. The question they face is, which path will they choose.
They should listen to their own advice and put aside logic and listen to their feelings. I dare you to do better than Wrath of Khan not made for tv movie/dvd. We will never have star trek 2009 if orci/k listened to the protests of remaking TOS in early years with new actors portraying Kirk, Spock, McCoy etc. People said the same thing, the same arguments, “This will fail, you can’t re cast Kirk/Spock, epic failure,” ppl will never learn and will be always be afraid of leaving their comfort zone, they don’t want Khan? give them 3hrs of it.
Oh and CONGRATULATIONS BOB & ALEX!!
Transformers 2 has made over $206 million!!! in only 3 DAYS!!
That’s well over half as much as Trek has made to date, all before its first weekend is over.
By Monday, the experts expect Transformers could actually top Trek as number 1 at the box office – in less than a week’s time, which means it will have paid for itself and be in the black for the rest of its run. This guarantees a sequel! Transformers 3 anyone?
Anthony == is it possible for someone to count the number of yea’s and nay’s for a new Khan movie?
Obviously, one vote per poster. Dunno how you check for ballot stuffing via sockpuppeting, but that should be taken into account. I know you have the separate poll.
Anyways… just a-thinkin’…
#317- I don’t think Khan would be pandering to the mainstream. I think making a film about Khan that isn’t another amped up revenge film would piss off most mainstream viewers when they hear Khan is in it. Again, they think TWOK. The fact that a Trek-fan website has a poll and all this debate implies it is a question within the Trekker community. The mainstream will take any kind of big-budget sci-fi+action+comedy+drama+romance you put together and yes, Klingons would be pandering but I think that’s a good business decision. I wouldn’t be surprised if the studio even tried to strongly suggest Klingons be in the next one. I’m not sure TMP would have been as successful if you didn’t have the Klingons at all.
I agree with you that a good story can come from anywhere, but eugenics is not such a novel topic in modern sci fi and anime. I also think it’s too easy for them to just draw a tangent story line rather than coming up with an original one. I think when they’ve run out of their own creative juices, then they should start doing things like Space seed version 1b. I’d prefer Khan revisited in a 4th or 5th film, not so early.
All i ask is that if you do Khan then do him properly. Khan isn’t a moustache twirling bad guy out to destroy the universe, in Space Seed his amibtions were relatively simple. He just wanted a colony to rule and call his own. He was a powerful tyrant, but not a greatly terrible one, im pretty sure in Space Seed its mentioned that his rule lacked genocides or significant slaughters.
Khan always came across as a noble villain to me, he didn’t always kill when presented with the opportunity and he had moments of mercy.
All this Khan business is such bs! I thought this new Trek was going in a new and original direction, not repainting the classics with todays gimmicks. Another thing, it sounds like that they are still following the same movie model as before, “the villain vs our heroes formula” which is really boring. How about a message story like the fourth trek movie but with no time travel. How about the two universes are in some kind of jeopardy… the prime and this new beta universe and only one can survive … the decision has to be made of which will go?! Sounds too much like Voyagers Deadlock eh. Off topic… I hate the Spock/Uhura love thing and I can imagine these writers eventually arriving at a crux to that story where it develops into a Spock/Uhura/Kirk love triangle that fuels conflict between the characters at some point in the subsequent sequels. Spock has become less intriguing and more Melrose Place. The more I see the new movie… the more things I start to dislike about it.
#369—”I think making a film about Khan that isn’t another amped up revenge film would piss off most mainstream viewers when they hear Khan is in it. Again, they think TWOK. The fact that a Trek-fan website has a poll and all this debate implies it is a question within the Trekker community. ”
Given that more “mainstream” potential viewers wouldn’t be perusing a Star Trek site in the first place—then yes, that is all it is as far as this site goes. I don’t see how that would piss off people who aren’t so invested in Trek.
As for the current reaction to the general question—I think it is the more traditional fanbase which is automatically thinking TWOK, as evidenced in the content of most of the posts here on the subject objecting to Khan in a sequel. The objection is generally based upon the flawed premise that any such story would be something we’ve already seen….and of course, that simply isn’t the case.
Think back to the ardent objections back when the concept of recasting the icons of TOS and revisiting the 23rd Century under Abrams was first being tossed around—or for that matter—think back to the general reaction when it was revealed that the timeline would be altered!
“…Klingons would be pandering but I think that’s a good business decision. I wouldn’t be surprised if the studio even tried to strongly suggest Klingons be in the next one. ”
Agreed. It is hard to imagine leaving the Klingons out this time around. If there is a recurring nemesis for James T. Kirk—-it is the Klingons. They are to Jim Kirk what The Joker is to Batman.
” I’d prefer Khan revisited in a 4th or 5th film, not so early.”
While I’m not sure we can count on more than 3 films with this cast, I agree in principle. I would prefer to see something else first, and then something like a revisitation to Khan.
I just refuse to outright dismiss the concept. A good story is a good story—whether it involves Khan or anything/anyone else.
Just tell me a good story.
#370—”in Space Seed his amibtions were relatively simple. He just wanted a colony to rule and call his own. ”
Not according to Khan himself:”Joaquin, the trip is over. The battle begins again— only this time it is not a world to win. It is a universe.”
Having merely a colony to rule and call his own was not his wish. It was something he was forced to settle for after being defeated aboard the Enterprise by James Kirk.
Obviously, his ambitions were far greater than that.
#373, to clarify, I think Khan was still trying to get the Enterprise crew to join him. He initially told the crew he wanted to take the ship and establish a colony on the planet Kirk may have been originally heading for. McCoy said something to the effect that “A Starship would make that easy wouldn’t it”. But I think his remarks to his own crew were more indicative of his motives. What he may not have said to the Enterprise crew is: first we’re going to set up a base of operations, tomorrow the universe.
As far as I can tell, some of the potentially intriguing questions about this possibility have so far been ignored in this discussion.
We know how Kirk Prime chose to ultimately (or so he thought) deal with Khan and his people once his attempt to maintain control of a Federation starship had been thwarted—-but how would the altered Kirk choose to deal with him under similar circumstances (with the understanding that circumstances might be even be similar at all)?
Would he choose to exile him rather mercifully, as his Prime counterpart did?
Prime Kirk’s decision was not made lightly, at least according to his log:
“Captain’s log…Control of the Enterprise has been regained. I wish my next decisions were no more difficult. Khan and his people, what a waste to put them in a reorientation center… and what do I do about McGivers?”
Somehow, I find it difficult to fathom that Pine’s Kirk would make the same decision (mistake) that Shatner’s Kirk made in the story’s final resolution—again, all thing being equal.
#374—Actually, this was at the point when he initially revived the rest of his crew. At that point, he had just successfully escaped from his quarters and managed to get aboard his ship. This actually precedes his attempt to take the Enterprise.
What he says to Joaquin aboard his own ship suggests that his real plans were far beyond what he was willing to empart to those he intended to recruit later in the story.
YES.
Trekkies may be opposed to seeing Khan again. But as the Supreme Court has made clear, it’s the non-Trekkie mainstream audience that is most important. And that crowd only vaguely, yet fondly, remembers Khan. They would more than welcome his return.
And so would we, as long as it was done well and felt fresh. And after the recent movie (plus the addition of the incredibly talented Damon Lindelof to the writing team of the sequel), I have no doubt it would be exactly that. In the Orci/Kurtzman written Spock comic that appeared in Wired magazine not long ago, Spock referred to Khan as the Enterprise crew’s “greatest adversary.” The promo above also plays up his status as such. That is how most people think of him, and I have no doubt we will see him again at some point, and it’ll be kick ass! It’s just too bad Mr. Montalban won’t be around to see it.
That said, I do agree that perhaps he should be saved for part 3. The discovery of the Botany Bay at the end of part 2 would bring the house down, and we all know it! It would be the best ending since the Joker card in Batman Begins.
#377—”Trekkies may be opposed to seeing Khan again.”
Just as many of them were opposed to recasting the TOS characters, altering the timeline, etc.
“And (the non-Trekkie mainstream audience) only vaguely, yet fondly, remembers Khan. They would more than welcome his return.”
Agreed.
“That said, I do agree that perhaps he should be saved for part 3. The discovery of the Botany Bay at the end of part 2 would bring the house down, and we all know it! It would be the best ending since the Joker card in Batman Begins.”
100% agreed.
Yes antonio banderas as khan!
Boborci!
Please. I’m begging you. No Khan in the next film.
Because Khan exists in both timelines you can set him up for number Three as the Tease Closer in the Next Film, but you have to give more space out of respect for Montalban. Montalban WAS Khan, he defined the character, and you have to spend a lot of time, as in the time between NOW and the Third Film, finding JUST THE RIGHT CHARACTER ACTOR who can play the heavy to fill Montalban’s shoes.
In other words, the one guy who can do Khan without people thinking “rich Corinthian leather” at the same time.
People also WILL NOT BUY Chris Pine doing “KHAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNN! KHAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNN!”
THAT LINE ONLY BELONGS TO THE ONE TRUE SHAT!
You can’t expect Pine to pull that off. Don’t EVEN go there.
I’m begging you: no campy “Khan” screaming from Pine.
And yes, I agree that a shuttle could come across a lone DY-100 afloat in the cosmos. That would be the juiciest setup since Vader flew away from the destruction of the Death Star in Episode IV.
I’m totally serious about Janice Lester. Bring on the mincing Pine.
Am I the only one who’s always found the doomsday machine itself kind of lame… I liked the Decker part of the story, but otherwise, meh — we know they’ll disable it and not be destroyed (does it get disabled, I can’t even remember?).
I say bring in some bourne style conspiracy. have no kirk love interest, and work in some philip-k-dick-esque mind-*(*&*ing. Something sweeping, with a lot of planets and new — interesting and truly alien — cultures, a la the best of the Star Wars series… just my 38 cents.
375
Kirk’s real mistake was not to send Khan down to the planet – TWOK is only possible if he didn’t tell Starfleet about it. Embarassment? Couldn’t he be bothered with all that boring paperwork?
Now that is a mistake I hope the new crew won’t repeat.
Khan was a character that was explored very well in star trekand should not be messed with. This new star trek universe has the potential to stand on its own. Keep some elements of the original series but also tell new stories :)
#375. Kirk was fond of leaving folks who took over the Enterprise on uninhabited planets to fend for themselves: “By Any Other Name” for instance. Not sure if that was a TV thing or not., but Kirk is supposed to give the “right” answer as a lesson to what we should do in our own lives. Kirk may or may not have made a mistake leaving Kahn on Ceti Alpha V, but Starfleet certainly did by not checking on him. TWOK was simply a story that should never have been able to be told.
I agree Alt Kirk will likely not give a similar answer. Indeed after the exchange with respect to Nero, Kirk’s motivations are political and as appeasing towards Spock. Then Spock’s emotional embrace of revenge in urging the destruction of Nero … these are clearly not the same people from the Prime universe, or if so, not yet matured, so one can assume similar courses of action.
Either way, I would feel let down if Kahn did not fight to the death as he did in TWOK. TV is one thing, but a movie simply cannot end that ambiguously. It is possibly in Kahn’s nature to run in the case of defeat as he did when the end was near on Earth. What would he do in a universe where there was literally no where to hide?
It is also possible that the Botany Bay made it to its final destination in this universe and Kahn already has a planet full of supermen ready to retake the Earth, only to be found by someone else and exposed to interstellar space-flight and the galaxy. Would such a ruler be so eager to run away to fight another day? Perhaps a dying Kahn and the hot tempered son-heir who never learned the reason of his father. There are so many ways to re-tell that story, all effective.
But in thinking about a possible new Kahn story, it occurs to me the brilliance of going back to TOS and finding an original hook in an old story that could be built into such a successful film is worthy of repeating. How can some element of the original 80 episodes best be retold in this alternate universe? None of the events of TOS have yet happened, so how can a prequel be derived from some piece of an episode that ties the old canon with the new, yet tells a completely new and original story? If it’s Kahn again so be it.
Doomsday Machine (Alternate reality)
Kirk & the E are ordered to accompany Decker and the Constellation to investigate two mysterious objects that have appeared in system L-370. Upon arrival they come across two dormant doomsday machines (DDM). Decker, in an effort to restore is failing career and against the heated advice of Kirk and Spok, re-activates one of the machines.
As the DDM begins re-booting, Spock is able to access the DDM computers and sees what the machine is programmed to do and shows everyone DDM archives of the machine destroying planets. Decker tries to shut the re-activated DDM down before it regains enough power to fire up the anti-proton beam…. too late. The DDM consumes the Constellation and tries to do the same to the E. The E escapes, but watches from a distance as the newly revived DDM, reactivates the second DDM with an anti-proton stream… now the fun begins.
#371
While we’re discussing what we don’t want, I sincerely hope the writers aren’t even remotely considering a Spock/Uhura/Kirk love triangle. In narrative terms, it would be soapy and silly, and in character terms pathetic- Kirk is an alpha male (even if an ultimately unfulfilled one in the Prime Universe) and having him moping around after a particular subordinate officer would be demeaning to the character. He’s a guy who can form proper relationships with women and would have a wide field of candidates to choose from in terms of his manly manliness, only restricted by his professional position- that is, subordinates would be off-limits for obvious military discipline reasons.
So I hope the writers can find him a relationship with a nice girl in a Theissian daring costume and too much eye makeup, and not get him involved in some cringeworthy nonsense with Uhura.
It would be interesting to see what the newest fans of Star Trek would like to see.
I think there should be a female villain, in Trek’s history there hasn’t been many, and Abrams can deliver strong performances from his female leads.
This is by no means an endorsement for Janice Lester!
Agree with #63. The doomsday machine, particularly its origins, etc. could be a nice non-villain villain as part of a larger adventure. Khan is tempting, but how can you top Ricardo Montalban… risky business treading on this turf!
Ugh, no more Khan. Something new please!
#387. Brett L. wrote Khan is tempting, but how can you top Ricardo Montalban… risky business treading on this turf!
As if re-casting TOS and setting it in an alternate timeline wasn’t risky. LOL
These guys have danced with the devil and are pushing $400 million at the box office. You think lightening can’t strike twice in the same place? Statistically it often does.
James reflects!
I am assuming that boborci is reading this thread. I could be wrong, but it seems just like him to give the fans (who are, in the wake of ST09, now firmly on his side) a little window into what he and Alex are thinking, tack on some outrageous statement like, “the next movie will be partly cloudy, with a 50% chance of KHAAAAAAAAN!”, and then, from the vociferous reaction, learn what the fans are thinking and hoping and wanting. (This is why boborci is awesome – he spends more time and energy *caring* about what the fans think than *any* Star Trek producer in history, including RDMoore and the Great Bird himself. And he does so without ever becoming enslaved to fan popular opinion.)
So, assuming I’m right, here’s a window into my head. As Vic would say, this one’s for you, Bob.
I keep thinking that I’ve finally acclimated to the idea of an alternate timeline and all the freedoms and losses that that new timeline entails. I’ve seen the new movie four times; by number four, the whole time-divergence thing felt like a pair of new shoes that I’ve worn just long enough that they’re broken in but still little enough that they have that new shoe smell. But then someone suggests an idea that actually *uses* the freedom of that new timeline, and I recoil. Someone says, “Hey! Let’s do a riff on ‘Errand of Mercy’!” and I recoil. It’s not because a redo of “Errand of Mercy” would be unoriginal (though this is surely true). It’s because, gosh darn it, hard as I try, I’m still *uncomfortable* with the new timeline. I don’t want the new Kirk, Spock, and McCoy to diverge from their original versions any more than they already have! I want to see them grow into some version of the characters I’ve always known and loved, and the less you screw with the life events that made them into those people, the better! So there’s definitely still a strong voice in me that says, “Sure, use the alternate timeline to explain away inconsistencies with other canon. You gotta do what you gotta do. But don’t deliberately make it diverge even further just because you can.” For this reason alone, then, given an abstract choice between an original story and a rehashed one, I choose the original one every time. Besides a bit of continuity porn for the fans, there seems little to gain from the rehash, and quite a bit to lose.
There is also the simpler and much more obvious fact that rehashes suffer from all sorts of other problems: failing to live up to the source material (sufficient reason to avoid using Khan, because not even Orci & Kurtzman can beat TWOK on its own terms), predictability, diminished surprise, diminished dramatic tension, failure to awe viewers with an amazing new premise. Even a reworked rehash – say, a version of “Errand of Mercy” that concludes with all-out war instead of the Organian Treaty – might gain back some surprise value, but it can never astonish in the way utterly inventive stories like “All Good Things” or “Duet” did during their original airings. Basically, everything that is *gained* dramatically through the use of an alternate timeline – all the freedoms, all the license, all the potential for shock and awe – would be lost if the newfound canonical freedom were used to remake, in any degree, any story or villain from the Primeverse. A freedom whose use destroys all others is not a freedom worth using. Don’t do it. Not now; not ever. In the words of Chris Crocker, Leave Khan Alone.
All that being said, I think the new movie’s approach to the question was marvelous, and is exactly the tack the creators should take in their next adventure. STXI gave us an adventure that investigated events in Jim Kirk’s (plus Spock’s) life that have never been shown in *any* universe. It worked off of a completely original *premise,* using a completely original *plot.* However, although its *premise* was original, the new movie made constant references of many, many other varieties, big and small, to other bits of the Primeverse that we know and love. From green-blooded hobgoblins to tribbles to mudfleas to Nyota to Chris Pike to the Kobayashi Maru, the new movie made us feel comfortable in this slightly-different universe. It was different, yes (as the destruction of Vulcan made so very clear), but it was not *very* different. It was a universe so similar to the one we know that, even though we’d never been there before, we fans felt very much at home.
Most importantly, the *characters* in this new universe, though they may have led slightly different lives from the Prime characters, were, in spirit, exactly the men and women we expected them to be. The characters were so right in this movie that they could have been interchangeable with the ones we know. Truly, this was “same crew, different day,” and, as the reviews seem to indicate, this was perhaps the movie’s greatest strength.
So, in conclusion, I don’t agree with the dichotomy Bob presents in the article: “Do a completely original story or harmonize with canon the way we did in the first movie, where some of the events overlapped with the original universe and were the same even if time travel hadn’t happened and some of the harmonies were reversed.” Those aren’t the camps into which we are falling. Everyone I’ve talked to, and everyone I’ve read, thought that the new movie’s approach was fantastic. We’re all in agreement on that, and I think it’s more or less assumed at this point that you’re going to keep constructing those “harmonies” with the Prime universe (you’d better!). The question is: are you going to do a movie where the *premise* and the *plot* are original (while the *continuity* and the *characters* continue to have those harmonies), or are you going to go all-in and do some kind of remake where premise and plot (along with continuity and characters) are based closely on some familiar concept?
Put another way: it’s the decision between having the plot involve one of Harry Mudd’s zany schemes on the one hand and remaking “Mudd’s Women” on the other. There are shades of opinion on both sides: some fans on the one would rather Harry Mudd be kept as a passing reference, while others would want him as a secondary character and some even as a primary villain, and some fans on the other would want to rework or rejigger the basic plot of “Mudd’s Women” to greater or lesser degrees. But there is where your proverbial fork lies: not in yet another debate over canon, but in whether the next movie should be *fundamentally* original in terms of premise and plot, or whether it should be, on some level, a remake of something that has gone before.
To state my opinion: if I see Kor on the bridge of a Klingon battlecruiser threatening the Enterprise during the next movie, I’ll be cool with that. If the next movie opens with the Enterprise receiving a declaration of war and warping to protect Organia, I’m going to be a trifle disappointed.
Oh, and #245: that was “Prime Directive” by the Reeves-Stevenses. It’s Orci’s favorite Trek book of all time, and one of my top three. Good taste.
I could read over and edit this before I post it now, but I’m not going to. Hope it’s coherent!
Actually, I rather like the idea of a Organian/Klingon/Tribble plot as previously mentioned. Great moral story (and Classic Trek twist) about man not being the most superior being, there would be some excellent battle scenes with the Klingons, and comedy with the Tribbles.
As for the Khan debate, I’d say go for it ONLY if it can be pulled off very VERY well. If its gonna be a re-hash or re-telling with no new takes, forget it.
How about a villain that DOES NOT DIE after one movie?
Regarding Kirk-Spock-Uhura…one of the things I didn’t like about Spock-Uhura is that Vulcans have a 7 year mating cycle called Ponn Farr which Spock is obviously vulnerable to, and which would not have been changed by Nero’s meddling in time, because the Vulcans have been that way thousands of years before Nero changed anything.
So how good can it possibly be for the fully human, young, and passionate Uhura to be stuck with a guy like that? And I’m really not interested in seeing Spock remade into some love machine. Spock is the cool, logical one, and he really needs to stay that way to offer that balance to the crew.
The issue isn’t whether or not Spock feels, but how he controls his feelings, and whether Spock, over Kirk, is someone who would ultimately appeal to her long term.
In addition, Kirk has responsibility now. He has the ship. So he has to know that he can’t keep being the immature frat boy he was when he first met Uhura, and whether that will, in the end, start to make him more attractive to Uhura than Spock.
So I vote to wrap up Spock-Uhura.
And remember, Uhura is not like Amanda. She’s not a follow-your-Vulcan-man anywhere kind of gal.
Spock was obviously ready to leave her to help rebuild Vulcan culture while she was obviously ready to blast off around the galaxy without Spock aboard the Enterprise.
And Orci-Kurtzman DID create sexual tension between Kirk and Uhura.
Thanks 371
I was a “no” on Khan until I considered Banderas…oh, oh….think about it….
394:
dmduncan:
Don’t forget that in “Amok Time,” Spock is quite surprised that he has been affected by the PF. “I had hoped I would be spared this,” I believe he tells Kirk. His first ‘attack’ won’t come for several years yet.
The Spock we see in the latest film is, ostensibly, fully in control of his own gonads. We do not know if T’Pring is alive after Vulcan’s destruction. And if she is, will Spock still have the mental connection established in childhood?
372 I think I agree with you. My comment about mainstream was poorly worded. I think the word Khan to a non-fan (the types that don’t come to this forum), implies the amped up adrenaline rush of The Wrath of Khan with Montelbahn’s amped up performance and Shatner’s “KHHHAAAAAAAANNNN!” If you don’t have that level of energy (which the last film just had) I feel like they will feel let down when they go to the movie and see space seed instead and the comparisons will be made by the press before they get there which is unfair. If the 2nd film is then unsuccessful, they will think they should have stuck to a formula film based on the 1st. That’s just my thought on how it would play out.
Regarding # of films, frankly if the cast is in for it and the writing is good, I can’t see a reason they won’t keep cranking them out (maybe with some lags in timing) With series like Harry Potter, Bond, MI, I find it hard to believe the studio doesn’t have a business plan that may exceed what the producers and writers have in mind.
397:
Well perhaps Spock’s emotional vulnerability due to the loss of his mother and planet might explain why he would suck face with Uhura on the transporter pad as three other people in the transporter room observed this uncharacteristic display of emotion with pretty much the same look of disbelief I know was on my face; but I would cringe at the sight of Uhura and Spock making out to Barry White music in the next movie, while Spock wanders the halls of the Enterprise with a visible woody through the Starfleet pants, assuring everyone that he is in “full control of” his emotions.
And let’s see Spock become more Leonard Nimoy and less Clint Eastwood.
397
The transporter scene was a bit surprising, but not illogical – Spock was sure he would die on the Narada (and it was a last minute rescue in the end!)
Look, Bob, Alex, and all, you’ve already shown you’re capable of writing ORIGINAL stuff – damn good stuff. So write ORIGINAL stuff. There are so many backstories in the Trekverse that could be examined through the lens of the alternate timeline/universe/whatever, there’s no need to retread an old story. Please, no Khan – he’s had his time. He’s not the Lex Luthor of the Trek universe just because he got a movie revisit.
please forgive me if this has mentioned before in a topic(and i’m sure it has) but, why, why didn’t we see how the (new) enterprise got into orbit with the starbase? we saw tons and tons of a heavy ship build on the ground,,so how and why didn’t we see it being lifted somehow into space? and yes i loved the movie,,my daughter and i saw it twice!
oh, and yeah, loved it the first two times, but NO KHAN
400: Of course it was illogical. There’s nothing logical about emotions.
For Khan, how about the guy who played the Mayor in The Dark Knight??
If I absolutely had to choose a Trek villain to get the big-budget, big-screen treatment, I’d actually go with the Cardassians. The Klingons since TNG have been Federation allies since 1987 and it would only confuse kids who grew up on TNG and DS9 to go backward and make them The Big Bad again, and Klingons and Romulans have been explored in depth over hundreds of episodes and several films. The only baddies who are still baddies in all of canon are the Cardassians. And the changes to the timeline could bring the First Federation-Cardassian War closer, frankly, and they could be epic.
But really? I’d like to see something new. I’d like to see something with the scope of film, instead of being an expanded television episode. And as much as I love Pike (and the version of this universes’ Number One who lives in my head and is played by Jennifer Garner and is Captain of th Yorktown and, I stress, currently lives only in my head), I’m fine with not revisiting everyone from the first film beyond a cameo that ties into the A-plot–so if we lose Sarek, Spock Prime, the Vulcan Colony, and so on, honestly I’m good with it.
[EPIC FANGIRL ASIDE: Even if it means we never see Winona Kirk--tho obviously, I really really wish we did because her absence was really my only beef with the end of Star Trek (2009) because I am still irked at the Invisible Disney Mother thing, and she *should* have been there to see Kirk take command of the Enterprise, after Spock Prime specifically mentioned George Prime was there to see Kirk Prime take command. Why have that line, if not to follow it up with Jim's living parent?]
The only other reason I too vote “No Khan” is that we’ve already seen his story (and like Nero, it involves a fridged wife and revenge and *we know better* than to keep on creating female characters solely for the purpose of killing them to inspire guys to heroism or villany) and we’ve already seen that story.
Nero works as a catalyst to reboot the universe, but doesn’t necessarily work as an epic bad guy precisely *because* he is a plot device to get the franchise rolling. But that card can only be played once. Time for a new threat to the Alpha Quadrant (or just specifically Enterprise), and one where neither TOS fans nor new fans who where it’s headed before it gets there.
In short: I want a new story with these familiar-yet-new characters whom I love.
Audiences who have never seen TOS before, but have fallen in love with the first movie, aren’t going to need to see a TOS episode remade–they have no emotional investment in seeing those same stories played out again with a larger budget. Old Skool fans don’t need to see a TOS ep remade because it robs the story of the element of surprise and forward momentum if we recognise the plot and its resolution before the canon characters do, and spend the rest of the film waiting for Kirk and Spock to catch us up.
It’s a lose-lose scenario.
*Elements* from canon, that work with existing canon, and a story that works and is tight and satisfies both Old Skool fans and New Skool Trek fans I think would be the best way to get the absolute maximum number of bums on seats. That’s what made the Nolan “Batman” films work for me (because if you’re gonna adapt a Batman story, you simply CANNOT FAIL adapting Year One + The Long Hallowe’en, let’s face it, but even those films aren’t strict adaptations. They cherry pick the good relationships and elemnts, but tell *new* stories with them), and that’s what is so far making the Abrams’ Trek work for me. I say, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Obviously, as always, YMMV.
re: #406 Sorry, meant to say “and one where neither TOS fans nor new fans KNOW where it’s headed before it gets there.”
Clearly, I fail at non-editable forums.
(Livejournal and blogger have clearly spoilt me)
I KNOW A GOOD KHAN ……………………ANTONIO BANDERAS……
Antonio Banderas as Khan?
Look, my grandmother is from Barcelona and my grandfather’s family was from Kashmir way back. Of course we like Antonio & Ricardo, but if you’re bringing back Khan, get Bollywood’s go-to villian actor, Gulshan Grover (http://www.petaindia.com/feat/images/1200_gulshan_grover_ad.jpg) . If you need a young & old Khan then get the father & son team of Amitabh & Abhishek Bachchan (http://www.bollywoodbuzz.in/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/amitabh-bachchan-abhishek-bachchan.jpg).
This is not your father’s Star Trek… It’s about making money. India is a HUGE market and using known Bollywood talent will guarantee big crowds and kick ass Mumbai parties.
I still think they dropped the ball by not casting John Abraham (http://media.santabanta.com/gal/bollywood/johndietpepsi/3.jpg) of Kabul Express fame as Spock. Quinto’s effeminate, high pitched voice does not make Sylar a convincing villian or do justice to Spock.
406 Tara
Winona’s absence was your only beef? Hah! In the novelization (and, as far as I know, in a deleted scene that will turn up on the DVD, I’m afraid), a few years after Geroge’s death she went and married Evil Stepdad Frank, the biggest a-hole in the galaxy. He’s the voice on the car phone and the reason Li’l Jimmy stole the car and ran away (as I refuse to believe in the whole Frank thing because it makes Winona look so bad, I explained it away by declaring the phone voice to be Grumpy Old Grandpa Tiberius, for whom handling a 10-year old is simply a bit too much).
All this happens because every Hollywood producer knows that all boys who don’t grow up with their biological father MUST become slackers, juvenile deliquents and/or losers – if they don’t become President, that is. ;-)
#410 My only beef with the scene where Jim recieves his commission and command of the Enterprise, yeah. I don’t have much of an issue with Kirk becoming captain at 25 instead of 32 when Starfleet’s just lost 7 ships and thousands of experienced officers, crewmen, and cadets. I do have an issue with Winona being there just to give birth and then vanish. As for Frank, he was never on-screen specifically as Jim’s uncle or stepfather, so there’s nothing in canon stopping Winona from show up sans Frank in the future…
Faran Tahir would have made a decent “Khan.”
What is it with all the naysayers about Khan? I seem to remember many doubters spouting off about the first movie before it came out yet Kurtzman and Orci provided us with an absolutely kick-ass story. I’m not a professional writer so far be it from me to give these two advice about how to write such a story. My feeling is that if they feel that the presence of Khan will provide another great story, then go for it gentlemen. The decision is yours, I have absolutely no doubt that it will be great no matter which way you decide to go. In Kurtzman and Orci I trust!
KEVIN SORBO FOR KHHHAAAAANNNN!!!
I think Aamir Khan would be a much better Khan than Gulshan Grover. I don’t think you necessarily WANT someone who plays bad guys to play Khan.
Khan probably thinks he’s a good guy that other people don’t understand because he’s so much superior. Khan may have gone a little loopy after all those years marooned on a harsh world, but that’s not who he is when he is first found.
Tell me I’m wrong:
http://www.aamirkhan.com/
415- Aamir Khan? Lots of people work out. Some people can act as well. Aamir Khan cannot.
Ricardo Montalban is widely known for ONE other role besides Khan: And I don’t even REMEMBER the name of the character he played on Fantasy Island.
So, an actor’s performance is half the director’s responsibility given that you are working with human beings that can be comfortable in front of the camera and who are intelligent.
Jessica Lange “couldn’t act” either.
A lousy director will coax a series of lousy performances out of otherwise competent actors.
If you want to start over start over, do not regurgitate Kahn, Harry Mudd, Cyrano Jones or anyone from the classic series, if this franchise deserves to survive it must survive on its own strengths and merits – do not pillage the grave of the Classic Series, it was bad enough that they insisted on re-using Kirk and his crew but to pillage past episodes for fodder is simply weak, it strongly suggests indecission on the part of the men running this franchise it says “Well, we do not exactly KNOW what made Star Trek work, perhapse if we re cast all the element it will be O.K.”
They have set about creating a new Universe – for better or for worse, it would be better to explore where it is diffrent and where it is similar than to go back to the Series – that is simply wadeing by the bank of the ocean – not seeing what lies beyond the Horizon.
It does come down to do you want to make something ecceptional that in time will stand on its own merits or do you want to clear the estimated profit quota for the film?
#406. Tara O’Shea:
1) CARDASSIANS: Worst villains yet. I was never a huge TNG era fan, but the Cardassians really failed it for me. Perhaps it was the heavy make-up. I had a bit of a similar problem with the heavily made-up Klingons, which in my estimation could be toned down in the future. One of the reasons I think the original Klingon/Romulan worked well is that they had that human element which grounded the baddies in our own world. Something Abrams seems interested in doing, connecting the film with the audience and making it more relatable. One needs look no further than Star Wars where the central groups of characters were all humans. Besides I doubt seriously whether these producers care what the TNG/DS9 think anymore than they cared what TOS fans think. Of all the movies, the TNG era films performed the worst and the financial success of ST09 proves even the TOS fans who claim to have hated the new film went to see it in droves, even if only to get fuel for their hatred. Besides, I think you underestimate the fans’ who grew up on TNG & DS9 ability to understand an “origin” story, or “get with the new program” – after all Nero’s reboot of the timeline affected the Klingons too. If it prompted the Federation to build bigger, tougher ships, what would that do to the Klingons already predisposed to warmongering?
2) WINONA: Not sure how creating her character to give birth and disappear, is any different than creating George to have him die. Nevertheless, there is nothing to say Winona did not die from cancer, or even in an accident during one of her off-world trips. What would disappoint me more is that she married one of George’s brothers as the name “Uncle” implies. The voice on the phone is completely unidentified and could be anyone, from Uncle Frank to the evil step dad, but didn’t sound old enough to be grandpa “T”. Having Winona dead would certainly help fuel young Jim’s angst and anger. Because frankly, there is not enough in losing his father as an infant that truly explains why Kirk is so angry as a teen. The producers’ failed to flesh out any of Kirk’s adolescence adequately to explain his behavior – Winona was yet another casualty of trying to cram too much backstory into a film with already enough material for two films. The lack of focus on Winona does not strike me as a valid complaint.
3) KAHN: Like many others, you proceed from an incorrect assumption that they would re-tell the revenge saddled TWOK rather than the Space Seed episode of TOS, which is merely an origin story for Kahn in the 23rd century. Any story involving Kahn could be just as effective as either previous installments were, for new audiences and fans alike. And obviously, it would play out completely differently than any other telling you’ve ever seen. Further, unlike the Cardassians, and to a lesser extent the Klingons, Kahn and company are humans – more specifically “super-humans”. Not only does that better ground the villain and make them more identifiable to a general audience, but it might even appeal to the billion dollar fan base interested in comic book super heros which helped Transformers earn $281 million worldwide in 4 DAYS!!!. Non Trekkers may also have heard the name Kahn before adding to better familiarity with the new film.
Someone completely nailed it by bringing up the only remaining timeline when it comes to the films- that being the events of ‘Enterprise’
Using Khan would only tangle the story up in continuity: there’s absolutely no way to duck the fact that they’ve seen Augments before, and no way around the “late 20th century genetic engineering” stuff, which needless to say wouldn’t stand a chance with a new audience.
God, let’s just get something new happening, or at the very least take conceptual cues from the first film series- a ‘cliffhanger’ type second film would hook people in and invest them in the characters & story- IMO that was the real missed opportunity when things were passed over to Picard & co.- we were left with standalone films that had to rely on their own merits (of which there were increasingly few). The ‘Khan’/'Spock’/'Voyage Home’ trilogy was strong enough that it kept audiences coming back for reasons that had more going for them than the words ‘Star Trek’ in front of the subtitle.
#421. – what are you talking about? You don’t have to dwell on the late 20th century genetic engineering stuff. Checkov mentioned it in TWOK and that film did just fine with audiences. Besides, nothing about this film’s application of time travel matches up with Enterprise. The timeline into which Nero arrives has already been confirmed by Abrams as intentionally departing from the canon we’re already familiar with from the start of the film. That’s his sneaky way of not being tied to ANY canon at all. More than likely given Orci’s applied theory of MWI QM, the alternate parallel universe timeline could be a splinter off of any one of Enterprise’s time incursions, including the one where aliens were helping Nazi Germany win WWII. It could also be a branch created during any one of TNG, DS9 or VOY episodes. The Augment wars NEVER have to happened in this universe, nor does Kahn’s existence have to have come about in the same way, or produce the exact same history for him to be a formidable foe for Kirk in the 23rd century. Finally, I would suggest that if audiences will buy into the premise for The Incredible Hulk, X-Men, Wolverine, Dune’s, Star Wars, Resident Evil, etc., they will easily accept Augments.
You underestimate these producer’s ability to loop-hole their way out of anything using MWI QM. The Prime universe continues to exist to appease canonistas, so they may do anything they want, not be constrained by yet more backstory canon.
I just cast my vote in the Khan poll…
11% yes
29% unsure/maybe
60% no
Anthony, do you have any poll results from way back at the beginning of the rumors of a new Trek movie with the TOS crew…?
I’d be curious to know whether there is a correlation between the amount of nay-saying that occurred back then for a new TOS crew movie and these same people who are against Khan in the sequel.
Look at all the pro Antonio Bandaras for Khan posts there are since I first mentioned him at 217. Fascinating.
I wonder how would borg be in 23rd century? Borg would rival Kirk and the Enterprise. I suggest we do the origin of Borg. No Khan pls.
If you’re going to do Khan – don’t do it in the second movie – save it for the third or fourth – or seventh! Khan was iconic, but so are Klingons – and we haven’t even seen them yet! Do Klingons in the next film. Save Khan for later.
Here’s a challenge JJ… re-invent the Gorn!
Make the Gorn the ferocious and fearsome alien it was supposed to be. Instead of the sorry, pathetic joke it has become.
I’m putting my self in the no Kahn camp. Its been done, done well, doesnt need to be redone. How about a Klingon? Seriously, those guys havent gotten to be any kinda movie villain since…Generations, and that was lame.
#423 – unless Anthony has some un-archived stuff, nothing in the polls goes back that far, or ever posed that question. However, here are some polls that are applicable to prevailing attitudes before the first pictures and trailers began to emerge:
http://trekmovie.com/about/index/pollsarchive/?poll_page=37
http://trekmovie.com/about/index/pollsarchive/?poll_page=40
#423 – And a couple of more:
http://trekmovie.com/about/index/pollsarchive/?poll_page=18
http://trekmovie.com/about/index/pollsarchive/?poll_page=22
http://trekmovie.com/about/index/pollsarchive/?poll_page=28
The REASON there were Eugenics Wars in the 90’s is because TOS was a show whose universe was written on the fly by a bunch of unrelated writers and the 90’s seemed far enough away from the 60’s that Eugenics Wars and Botany Bay typed spacecraft seemed possible by the 90’s.
There was no consistency to the early show because the producers kept changing their minds, so trying to explain it all consistently as if it were all real is more than a little absurd. Just man up to the fact that Star Trek was a show being made up on the run where internal consistency was not always a factor.
Look at Where No Man Has Gone Before: Kirk was James R. Kirk, and Spock wore a gold tunic.
Of course, you could explain everything in TOS as actually occurring in an ALTERNATE universe all along, and not being the future of our universe at all where Eugenics Wars obviously did not happen, and where Khan might be from the late 21st century as a refugee from an entirely different conflict, but you are always going to have the internal inconsistencies of TOS, like unexplained uniform or set design changes.
NO Antonio Banderas as Khan. Puh-lease. Just because Ricardo Montalban was hispanic doesn’t mean you have to keep casting a hispanic to play an Indian. This is 2009, not 1967. Jeez.
Over 1 BILLION Indians in India, a nation that arguable loves movies more than any other nation on earth, and we STILL can’t imagine anyone but a Hispanic playing the role of a Sikh because Ricardo Montalban did such a fine job? I think the surest way to invite unwelcome comparisons between the old Khan and the new one is to have them both portrayed by Hispanic actors.
And it would be no more acceptable in my view to have a Hispanic play a Sikh than to have a white man colored to play a black man, or to have a white man colored to play a Hispanic, when the role will be much more authentically filled by a capable actor whose race matches the race of the actual character he is playing.
Yes, Hollywood is STILL doing that nonsense, but that doesn’t make it right: They cast a white woman to play a Native American in Wolverine, and that practice is a legacy that dates back to the most racist period of Hollywood, when Native Americans were always white people painted dark.
This is STAR TREK, and Star Trek can and should be above those practices.
And do I really have to do the math here? India is a nation of over a BILLION people. Movies are bigger there than they are here. And what are movies about from the perspective of the people who front the money to have them made? BOX OFFICE! How much is it making?
And if not angering fans is the way to great box office, then they’ll do everything they can not to anger fans. But if the fans are too small a base to matter, then guess what? That’s right, you are out of luck, because they own the franchise and they are going to do what brings in the bucks.
Now we have a crew here who really cares about the franchise and who wants the best of all possible worlds: Doing what the fans want without alienating non fans, and getting great box office to justify making more movies.
Count yourselves LUCKY that Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman got hold of this thing.
Now, you put a capable Bollywood Indian movie star in the role of Khan, and you ALSO have a potential blockbuster in India, a nation of how many people? That’s right, over a BILLION. That spells BOX OFFICE.
Yes, or COURSE any potential Bollywood movie star has to be able to “act.” That goes without saying. That’s why you hold auditions. That’s why you do screentests. But if you are telling me that you can’t find a SINGLE decent actor to play the role of Khan Noonian Singh in a nation of a BILLION Indians with a movie industry bigger than ours, then I would say those assumptions represent a certain kind of attitude that has a very unflattering name.
Mr. Orci, I saw Transformers with my kids today and we thoroughly enjoyed it. Good job in creating an early buzz around the next trek movie with the Kahn comment!
Spock PRIME informs Starfleet of some potential threats. One of those threats is obviously the SS Botany Bay. A Starship (not necessarily the Enterprise) is dispatched to tow the unawakened crew to a starbase or world of chosing. Khan and his crew awaken in a prison for crimes against humanity, ie late 20th Century exploits. This would be updated to mid 21st Century crimes for obvious reasons. Khan being who he is leads an insurrection on this Starbase/World. The Enterprise is dispatched to put down the uprising. Khan given the resources could create far more chaos than he did in the original episode or movie. It’s different enough to be fresh but familiar enough to fill the box office. Paramount is going to do whatever it pleases, if they do lean this way make it as fun and interesting as possible :)
Loved Star Trek (4 times so far). Saw The Proposal and really enjoyed it.
I just saw Transformer 2 and realized there’s only so many transforming robots I can watch and still stay interested. I actually dozed off at one point (sorry : (). And I still have problems with the robot’s faces: In many cases their faces were composed of so many different parts that it was still hard for me to find a face in all that metal that I could empathize with.
I liked the funny parts, John Turturro was freakishly amusing as usual, the new kid was a good addition, and Megan Fox is always a pleasure to look at, but I got bored with the special effects.
Bottom line: Michael Bay is a one hit wunderkind who makes 2 hour long movie trailers.
#436. dmduncan wrote: I just saw Transformer 2…I actually dozed off at one point … sorry
That’s actually kind of hard to believe considering how loud I’ve heard it is!
I’m sure Orci/Kurtzman aren’t offended … it sounds more like you had a problem with the director than the story.
Besides, according to Variety, after only 5 days Transformers has earned $387 million worldwide, more than Trek has earned during its entire run at the box office so far.
RD, I assure you it’s true, and yes, a rather loud noise jerked me suddenly back awake in a funny way. The person I was with confessed that she too fell asleep at one point. It’s a typical Bay movie. It has his stamp all over it. I don’t blame Orci or Kurtzman. Those guys make great stuff. I also saw The Proposal, which they produced, and which I was dragged to, and I didn’t expect to like it, but it was actually a way better movie than Transformers 2.
I saw Star Trek 4 times with the same person, and neither one of us was in danger of falling asleep at any time. And she had to be dragged to see it the first time because she wasn’t a Star Trek fan, but went 3 more times with me willingly after the first time. So, a new Star Trek fan was born.
How much Transformers earns is irrelevant to me. Casablanca or The Third Man it is not. I’d put Star Trek 2009 as a great movie, right up there with Raiders of The Lost Ark, which is on, I believe, AFI’s top 100 best films of all times list. Transformers 2? Not even close.
Khan would be fine. As long as he is used in ways we totally do not expect him to be used. We’re in an alternate timeline now…it’s all in the twist.
Dear Orci and Kurtzman: Whatever story you do, Khan or no Khan, it would really be cool to carry over threads from ‘09 and explore them further in the next movie.
Some things seem obvious enough that no single person can really take credit for thinking of them first. Heck, I’m sure you guys have already considered what I’m about to say, so let me say that I’m in agreement with these ideas which I am sure you both have already thought of, and that yes——
It would be great to see Kirk’s brother and mother, where Kirk’s mother could be so heartbroken over Spock’s losses that she becomes a surrogate mother figure to him, helping him to restore some of his emotional balance, and making him part of the Kirk family, as much as Pike has become Kirk’s father figure. (Might there even be romance in the air between Kirk’s mother and Admiral Pike?) It would be great to see Spock then apologize to James T. for his comment about Kirk’s dad during the Kobyashi Maru hearing, and Kirk apologize to Spock about manipulating his emotions, so we can see how Kirk and Spock actually become like brothers. And you wouldn’t leave out McCoy, of course. Maybe Kirk’s mom loves him to death and thinks he has the most wonderful sense of humor. So we can actually see the triad forming and the rest of the crew forming a second tight and interwoven circle through and around them.
That would be cool. So if you’ve already had such ideas——and how can you NOT have had such ideas? They are just obvious next logical steps to take from where you left off——then yes, I agree those ideas you are having and which are completely your own are good and that you should implement them where possible.
: )
It would also offer more potential moments of tearjerkery, which I would love to see every Trek sequel have a few of.
You can’t bring Khan into this movie, you just can’t. There’s too much new stuff that you’ve opened up to bring him back into the franchise. If anything, a possible explanation for that whale probe might be a good way of tying in existing continuity, since in The Voyage Home, it was never explained what that probe was and where it came from. Khan just has been done too much, maybe a mention of him, but not a movie about him. There was already a movie and an episode about him, that’s just too much. Maybe watching all the Star Trek episodes and finding all the unexplained or hinted at things that they never went into would provide some great ideas for this.
440:
dmduncan:
Sounds like a bad “Waltons” episode.
Our main characters are adults now, and it is imperative that they be able to throw off the apron strings to spend many months or years in space without physical, or even subspace, contact with family members.
Kirk’s ‘family’ is those who surround him at work. Bones has left what’s left of his family to serve on the Enterprise. Spock feels himself an outcast everywhere except on the Enterprise.
Throwing in moms and new potential stepdads makes it into a Christmas special, which i do not want to see at all.
Star Trek Something Something plot synopsis:
The U.S.S. Neil Armstrong has been wrapping up a survey mission on Pleiades Delta III when they receive an S.O.S. beacon. Warping to the beacon the Enterprise discovers an apparently derelict Federation light cruiser, the U.S.S. Cincinnati. Spock’s initial scans show no life forms on board. Kirk, Spock and McCoy beam over. Upon their horror, they discover the crew is still on board dead but they are now reanimated corpses. Spock captures a crew member to bring back onboard the Enterprise for analysis. McCoy discovers the Crew of the Armstrong are victims of a genetically engineered virus. Spock scanned the Armstong’s ship logs to trace back their previous destination: a planet 10 light years away.
Enterprise warps to this unknown planet and Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Sulu beam down to the planet. It is a barren world except for a cave entrance that is metallic looking. Kirk and crew are captured! The crew finds themselves in cells, with their large headed captors watching them. Kirk and crew discover their thoughts become reality in this strange world. Their nightmares and fears are forced on each one of Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Sulu, as we look deeper into their psyches and what the fear.
After obligatory action sequences, and Kirk’s resourcefulness, they escape. Their captor, who calls himself the Keeper, tells them they are on the planet Talos IV, and their race went almost extinct because of their reliance on mental powers, they forgot how to keep their race functioning. The keeper explains they created this virus to extort another race to come to their planet to help repopulate it. Kirk asks “Why didn’t you just ask for help?” The Keeper “Because your race has shown it’s resistance to captivity, we created a cure, but we had to make sure you’d help us, the first ship didn’t”. Kirk :”First ship?”. The Keeper, “Yes, the first ship came here 30 years ago”. Kirk “What happened to them?!” Keeper “We set them free, infected of course”.
Pan to far away planet: – An old, rusted ship crashes on a planet. Out come the reanimated crew. The planet is full of living machines, a robot sentry goes to the crashed ship and says to the zombies “Halt, resistance is futile”. Vina comes out as a zombie and is assimilated. Hence the Borg Queen is created.
442. I agree.
441. No whale probe please — unless done REALLY well, explanations/origin stories are best left to the imagination (see: how TNG and especially Voyager ultimately made the Klingons, Cardassians and Borg so incredibly unimaginative, simple, white, homogenous and boring, likewise Enterprise with Vulcans and Andorians). But hopefully Abrams’ Trek has shown that origins don’t have to be lame, so maybe I contradict myself.
Actually, bsg was a show where, generally but not always, new info on the Cylons actually raised more questions than it answered and made them more interesting. Ditto with Caprica, which was far more intriguing than I could have imagined, given that we know what the darned ending will be. Lost has done this well at times in the past too.
442: Nah, not if you do it right. It would have to be a light touch, not the focus of the story, just the way Orci and Kurtzman “lighttouched” so many different aspects of Star Trek at the same time for this movie. It would only be the Waltons if that’s what the story became, which you can’t.
And Amanda was part of TOS world. But she’s gone. This world is different. It’s a flip side, so maybe Kirk’s mom takes her place, and Star Trek has always been about the family of the bridge. But that’s not all it’s about either. There are dozens of characters that help to define who they all are.
It’s clear by now that Orci and Kurtzman have the talent to pack a lot of information into a small amount of screen time without making the story about Kirk’s mom and so on, while making the characters seem real and more than just action figures in an action movie, which is something I don’t want to see.
Abrams said he fell in love with these characters, and that love comes from seeing the relationships they have with each other, along with outside characters (Spock Prime doesn’t belong to the bridge anymore either, but he was an enormously important part of this story, and I’m not suggesting anything more than that for Kirk’s mother, indeed, even less than so important a role).
So you’d have to do it lightly, in a few brief but important and powerful scenes that happens at the periphery of the main story so it doesn’t become The Waltons.
But all this is moot. Who’s writing the sequel?
There’s a scene in “A Few Good Men” where the Demi Moore Character ominously warns the Tom Cruise character to NOT go after Col. Jessup (Jack Nicholson) unless he is absolutely sure that he can nail the Col.
Which would be my advice to Orci and Kurztman regarding the question of whether to Khan or not to Khan.
I’m open to it. I voted maybe in the poll. But it has to be great if it’s going to be that.
I prefer a perennial villain like Chang rather than Khan, but Orci and Kurtzman are the ones who are getting paid to write this thing, and I think the franchise is in good hands.
Whatever they decide, I’ll support them.
442: I mean really, where does Sarek fit in to the bridge crew? Did you think having Amanda and Sarek in this movie made it a Walton’s Christmas special? It’s a new Star Trek-iverse, baby. Anything can happen now.
It’s all in the fingertips, in how you nudge it this way or that. Orci and Kurtzman have the touch to pull off a number of things that might seem odd or strange in a blog comment.
In fact, if I had any complaint about TOS it was that there wasn’t enough detail about who they were before they were Starfleet. It was all TOO much just about them on the bridge. That’s not realistic. Introducing Kirk’s brother in Operation Annihilate only to kill him was ineffective. No personal connection was ever established in the series to give that episode any emotional impact at all with his loss. Kirk’s’s brother in that episode was just an extra on the floor with a plastic monster stuck to his back.
Will Spock Prime warn starfeelt of his past/threats? Or would he allow the crew/this realtiy determine their own fate? Sometimes the children needs to fall off the bicyle to learn how to ride a bike, or to experience life to shape them as to who they will become. I’m betting that Spock Prime does not reveal anything to starfleet of this universe about V’ger, Khan, Whale Probe, Sybok, God, Klingons, Nexus, Borg etc. Maybe Spock Prime once he is done helping rebuild Vulcan, figures a way to get back to his reality and allows this reality to form without intervention.
When these guys finish the Star Trek sequel script, they will have roughly 120 pages of material. Sure, they have some clout, so maybe it’ll be more than that. But 120 is the standard.
Now, if all you did was Kirk finds Khan, Kirk beats Khan, Kirk exiles Khan, do you know what you’d have? Half a movie, that’s what.
You have to have other stuff in there to reach that 120 page mark, and it won’t all be about Khan.
So when I suggest Kirk’s mother as being a character that can help Spock, and further tie the Kirk-Spock-McCoy triad together, I’m talking 5 – 10 pages of material scattered thoughout the movie. That would hardly turn the sequel into an interstellar Walton’s episode.
And if you review ST II-TWOK, what will you find? In addition to all the stuff about Khan we find a story about a father and the son he hasn’t seen in 20 years. Waltons? Well then give me more if that’s the case, because that’s what deepens these characters and makes them more than GI Joe action figures.
Khan can be revisited in more than the obvioius, Enterprise finds Botany Bay. There can be a flashback scene of where the Kelvin or another ship located the Botany Bay and the crew has integrated within Star Fleet, years earlier. You can show Khan rising within Star Fleet and was part of the ships waiting in the Laurentian System in Star Trek 09. Captain Robau and George Kirk or other ship/crew, elected not to wake them, instead sent them to Earth for re integration into society. Now you can have a good story where Khan can be a tragic hero and turns “evil” and faces off against star fleet/enterprise, ie. pike in wheelchair, kirk as captain etc.
Well I haven’t gone through all 440+ comments before mine. Do Kahn if you want, at this point I don’t care ;) as long as its a good movie. They’ve taken liberties in the movie and explained them decently.
BUT:
If they drastically change the design of the Botany Bay, I’m sure some will say that the changes would need a really good explanation. Here we have a ship on a voyage which should be unaffected by Nero’s incursion. Unless of course during his 25 year disappearance he encountered the ship, altered the technology, and woke up the sleeping genetic superhumans..
449: “Do Kahn if you want, at this point I don’t care ;) as long as its a good movie.”
Yes. And that’s the bottom line, because if it’s a good movie, then all the Khan naysayers (I am one) will change their minds and say “Oh, we had no idea it was going to be so great.”
I’ve been thinking about the inclusion of Khan in the next sequel and to me I am still straddling the fence. But, what if?
Exploration of a timeline where similar things MIGHT happen but, maybe not? Kirk, with access to information from a mind-meld with Spock Prime, might have some fore-knowledge how events unfolded in the “other” timeline, what impact might this have? It is interestingly enough a thought-provoking statement in itself.
I admit that no one actor could “replace” Ricardo Montalban’s performance in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan, but something reminds me not to think of it as “replacing,” but more aptly said as, “rebooting.”
Bear in mind, I say the above with the philosophy of, “keeping an open-mind,” and with that said, proved how much fun a “reboot” could be, if written nicely.
What if, Kirk died instead of Spock?
What if, Regula One was replaced with a different station OR something altogether different? What about Marla McGivers? Would she have had to perish from a persistent alien creature on a hostile planet? What if the wayward crew of the Botany Bay were never exiled to Ceti Alpha 5 in the first place? Are you beginning to see the picture? Vaguely?
What if Khan killed Spock Prime? There are many, many, many delicious scenarios in this bold and wild new timeline to present our new characters in and around. The possibilities seem endless, but the main concern of mine, if this plot-line is developed would be the “mind-meld information,” is it as far-reaching as we suspect? Does Kirk even realize the information is there? If Spock Prime were to die, why should McCoy carry Spock Prime’s katra? It seems Kirk is in the most opportune spot to receive it OR is he?
Suffice it to say, (Pun Intended,) the new time-line presents a multitude of great story-lines and plots, subplots and subtext to surround the great and gallant crew of the NEW U.S.S. Enterprise.
Don’t discount the idea before you thoroughly explore it, after all, it is worthy of being considered. I even hesitated on doing some explorative thinking until I opened my mind and eyes to see just what could be done, of course, it SHOULD and MUST be done the right way, carefully.
I’ve had enough with the madman/black hat villian scenario in Trek films. Let’s do something new and fresh – I’m sure it’d be great withy this creative team in control, but no Khan please!
For all its flaws, the story behind TMP actually captures the spirit and ethos of Trek the most. With a bit more pacing and better use of charcaters, that film could’ve been a classic – and you didn’t need a baddie bent on universaly domination/vengeance!
RE: KHAN
MY VOTE IS “NO”
Please use the talent you were gifted with and write something original to BLOW. OUR. MINDS!
Please, no Khan in the sequel. Please give us something original. You are very talented people, lets not do a repeat of something in the past. A movie followup to Space Seed has already been done. Lets move forward and onward.
Come up with something new…
that would be more intresting than telling me a story I already know
# 294. Dave Creek
“Please, let’s have a story of exploration. That doesn’t mean you can’t have an exciting, suspenseful story. If you’re re-watching TOS episodes, look again at “The Corbomite Maneuver.” The Enterprise is on an exploratory mission and encounters Blalock’s ship. When they have a chance to escape, they don’t take it because their mission is to explore, to increase our knowledge.”
“Obviously now we can have a much more expansive story than that one was, but we can still have a story where the characters get themselves into trouble because they’re curious.”
This is the BEST EXAMPLE YET to explain how exploration + action can work for Trek!!
Yes, please, YES, go with this vibe – - go with a hair-raising, suspenseful, WTF-are-they-gonna-do-now type story. Dave Creek, I swear that is a great example!!
Ricardo Mantalban AS Khan is the iconic villain. Wouldn’t be the same with another actor in the role.
Was the whole point of the parallel universe to allow two hack screenwriters to copy and strip mine “Star Trek”’s greatest moments and then remake it as a “new” film? That’s just lazy and unimaginative.
Personally, I don’t care what they do for the sequel so long as it’s good and so long by the end of their third movie the timeline gets restored.
Please not Khan. Or can you recreate Ricardo Montalban as computer special effect? I believe not. And the Botany Bay must look like the ship from the original series. Outside and inside too.
I think it´s a very bad idea if Khan comes again. It makes more trouble in canon.
Better you create a nature tragedy as evil.
And the best is in the next film: restore the timeline.
Or restore romulus in the original timeline.
John, as much as I loved the new film, I couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve been less bothered by the timeline changes and more bothered by the destruction of Vulcan that I was willing to accept the new timeline as long as they find a way to bring back Vulcan.
But the more I think about it, the more annoyed I am at the dismissal of the old timeline. They try to cover it up by saying that the “old timeline still exists, this is just an alternate reality” well, sorry, Trek fans aren’t that stupid. Trek has taught us that the old timeline has been negated in favor of this new timeline.
The irony is that the biggest POS of all Trek, ENT, is now the only thing that remains canon.
The colonization of New Vulcan surely seems to be one obvious story.
For the work undertaken to rewrite history, it seems oddly paradoxical to go back and retell an existing story. You’ve erased the canvas, so to speak, so draw something new. TWoK is iconic; let it rest.
You could argue, however, that a whole new kind of “Space Seed” has been set up…bring in Khan character to conquer the Vulcans who attempt to colonize the planet Spock found…..
First i didn’t read all the postings so far but I’m with the “No Khan” camp, just the idea of giving the Botany Bay a cameo as was previously suggested. Either floating in space, crashing into some systems sun or if there’s a plausible reason let the automatic systems come on and let it land on some uninhabited world then fade to black at the end of a future sequel.
461: the biggest POS was Voyager!
No Khan.
Harry Mudd… Kor, Koloth or Kang… Cyrano Jones…
and above all, Gary Mitchell. Incredible potential.
But no Khan. It’s been done so well, and going back to Khan is going to feel forced, like there was no imagination put to work.
How about NO VILLIAN. It’s NOT needed! How about a go to planet and develop a story that forwards the characters… ya know, an EPISODE :)
I would rather see a truly alien looking antagonist should they go in that direction, maybe the Gorn or the Tholians. Why these aliens?! To show that Star Trek isn’t just bumpy headed humanoid aliens. It would be interesting to see how the timeline change has affected Gorn/Tholian technology/territory. I want to see how and where these things live, how they are amongst one another. Lets not have the antagonists be cruel to one another, show them being loving and kind. Whereas their perspective would be that Starfleet is encroaching upon their territory etc. They consider the intrusions into their territory a serious breach. This could be a story about the prime directive taking shape meanwhile the Vulcans are looking for a new homeworld. :D
Orci and Kurtzman may very well bring Khan into this movie because they want to steamroll over precious Trek cornerstones again and lie to the fans like they always do.
…another vote for the Gorn. I’m also another who would love to see a take on the Doomsday Machine. Klingons, absolutely.
But Khan? No, mainly because theres so much More out there in Trek history to revisit, build upon, reimagine.
UNBELIEVABLE UNBELIEVABLE…..
Just when I thought Trek couldn’t get any lower.
Let’s have more product placement in this one too.
[...] una reciente entrevista, Alex Kurtzman y Roberto Orci revelaron que la secuela de Star Trek de J.J. Abrams podría marcar [...]
Forget the Khan notion – it was Shatner and Montalban that made that whole thing work.
Don’t be so quick to dump the time shifting theme – check this out:
TOTALLY go with the Doomsday machine theme.
Movie Plot:
1. Movie opens with the ORIGINAL Starship Constellation under attack by the Doomsday machine. Spectacular battle; Constellation on the edge of annihilation; crew beamed onto doomed planet which is then blown up; Doomsday eating planet pieces for fuel…all that good stuff…Doomsday fueling up for final beating on Constellation…attack begins…suddenly you hear the familiar Borg introduction come over the Constellation’s speakers (”We are the Borg….resistance is futile)….but its in a Klingon type voice….
2. Converging beams from Doomsday and Constellation’s photon torpedoes creates temporal rift and throws Doomsday AND Constellation into new Star Trek movie timeline. But you get a sneaky suspicion that it was supposed to happen this way. End of scene shows a silhouette of a man watching this battle and time rift unfold through a special “temporal television set” allowing him to see time unfold in front of him.
3. Constellation and Doomsday emerge – Doomsday finishes off Constellation, but not before they dispatch a subspace message containing the recording of the Borg/Klingon message.
4. Message is picked up by Starfleet. Enterprise, Lexington, Excalibur, Potemkin sent to investigate. Ships are met by Doomsday. All but Enterprise are destroyed. Enterprise is severely damaged. Same thing happens – Doomsday and Enterprise firing on each other create a temporal rift (same Borg/Klingon message is broadcast to Enterprise – which brings them to Next Generation timeline and EXACTLY to location Wolf 359, where the battle was just fought. Enterprise is allowed to drift by Doomsday because they’ve got bigger fish to catch (earth and the federation) – and they need to catch up with their creators – the BORG – who have also assimilated most of the Klingon Empire, making the Borg even more vile and vicious! All of this going on while the silhouetted man is observing the whole thing – but this time, there’s a second and third silhouette (one with a familiar set of ears with him)…and you can tell that the 3 silhouettes know they need to do something, because they know this is only going to get worse. In watching all of this, they have learned the technique of creating the temporal rift. Suddenly and for a moment you can see Admiral Janeway’s face speaking to the silhouettes….
5. Enterprise makes repairs and manages to get to earth to meet up with Enterprise D, the Borg and Doomsday. Borg attacks both Enterprises while Doomsday begins to slice chunks out of earth. Picard and Klingon/Borg spokesperson look on from borg ship and grin. Earth, Enterprise and Enterprise D are about to be vaporized when a magnificent light is created by a new temporal rift.
6. Enterprise A emerges from the rift with James Kirk and Spock and a familiar face or two. Doomsday turns about and starts to fire on Enterprise A – but with no effect. Borg ship joins in and fires everything at Enterprise A, but with no effect. Kirk hears the voice of the Klingon/Borg representative, telling him that they will adapt and that they will be assimilated. James Kirk smiles, gives a nasty reply back and orders Spock to “fire” on Doomsday and the Borg ship. Enterprise A fires a whopping transphasic torpedo and the Doomsday and the borg are assimilated – AND the torpedo creates a ripple effect that sends a deadly destructive virus through the Borg collective, obliterating the Borg from existence.
7. Kirk speaks briefly with Pine in the aftermath, and then sends Enterprise through a rift back to its own time. Enterprise A goes back to where it came from.
8.. Final scene is Pine sharing his conversation with Kirk among his colleagues…at very end, he reveals that Kirk gave him an incredible new technology to give him near invincibility to fight off other future enemies…..
Try that one….:)
Khan Noonien Singh would be a pretty good choice-maybe they could smooth out of of the bad continuety of the supermen-like placing up a few decades,instead of the late 1990’s which is now placed us.