More Star Trek Sequel Talk From Orci & Kurtzman – Is There A Leading Candidate For New Khan? July 4, 2009
by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Orci/Kurtzman, Star Trek sequel (2012) , trackback
There are yet a couple more Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen interviews with Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman which delve into the world of the Star Trek: Something Something sequel. And in one case, a name pops up again as a possible new Khan.
The great debate continues
An interview with Canada’s Sun Media, discusses the great debate vexing Orci and Kurtzman regarding the Star Trek sequel.
At issue: do they create a fresh plot with never-before-seen characters and scenarios or — because young Kirk and Spock are now part of an alternate timeline where the past has been altered — do they introduce 2.0 versions of such popular villains as the Klingons or Khan? Orci recognizes each approach has its own merits.
Rebooting familiar elements appeals instantly to fans and attracts the attention of "the media-sphere," as he calls it.
Meaning that if you cast, say, Javier Bardem as the new Khan opposite Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto, you’ve automatically excited fans and attracted the attention of the moviegoing public.
"But on the other hand," he adds, "who doesn’t love an original story?"
Taking a break and listening to the fans
In an interview from last week with our friend Jordan Hoffman of UGO, Bob and Alex talked a little bit of the next Trek, including the input of the fans.
Jordan Hoffman: Okay, so sequel to Star Trek. You haven’t even begun the script, yes?
Roberto Orci: Little vacation in July then we hit the ground running.
Jordan Hoffman: And everyone is giving you their two cents on what they want to see in the movie. Have you ever experienced this, where people have so many opinions on a script you haven’t even written yet?
Alex Kurtzman: That is unique to Star Trek. That’s what is so remarkable out it – the fans. The fan fiction, the community, the familiarity with the material.
More at UGO, including discussing if Michael Bay is a Romulan or a Cardassian.
Bardem as Khan?
This is not the first time the name of Academy Award-winner Javier Bardem (No Country for Old Men) has been suggested for Khan. In fact Orci first brought up the name in a comments section here at TrekMovie in January. In May Orci and Star Trek producer Damon Lindelof talked to ComingSoon about the possibility
CS: I’m on a one-man mission to plant the seed now. If you decide to revisit the character of Khan, two words: Javier Bardem.
Kurtzman: Oh my God!
Orci: Did you know we’ve actually mentioned that out loud as a possibility? What a great idea.
Lindelof: Come on. That’s a no-brainer. That would be the most amazing thing ever. Who would even what to see these [new] guys then? That’s the problem. You would just watch them for scenery.
If they do choose to go with a new Khan, the ‘who will be the new Khan?’ buzz will certainly be a hot topic for the geek and entertainment press, something that could only help the movie.
Ricardo Montalban in TOS "Space Seed" and Bardem in "No Country for Old Men"
Transformers passes Star Trek
In other Transformers/Trek news, Bob and Alex’s new Transformers movie continues to make money at astounding rates. As predicted in our last ST09 Tidbits, Star Trek has dropped to 11th place in the domestic box office since two movies opened up on July 1st (Ice Age 3 & Public Enemies). But Transformers has returned to the number 1 spot and on Thursday and Friday Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen passed Star Trek and then Up to become the top grossing film of the year domestically (with $268.7M). Transformers 2 was already the top performer globally, having earned a total of over $508M so far. Although Star Trek is out of the top 10, it should still finish the weekend by crossing the $250M domestic and $375M global marks (if not by Sunday, then by Monday).
Loading ...
Comments»
Ugh… Let there be no fire for this smoke.
First? Also in before raging at me saying ‘first.’
No Khan please. Original story.
Why do I feel like I’m witnessing the Star Trek version of certain American political debates going on right now? (And I’m not trolling for political commentary)
The majority og the populace is agin’ it and the PTB just keep talking it up!
How do you use Khan without either retelling “Space Seed” (Kirk & Co. find Khan) or “Wrath of Khan” (Khan vs. Kirk after some other ship picks Khan up.)?
Just use an original story with Bardem as the villain. We don’t need to revisit Khan.
no matter what they decide, to bring back khan, borg or whatever, i trust them. i enjoyed the first movie, and it left me wanting more. i think these guys know what they’re doing. even if they do khan, i’m sure this new movie franchise will be running long enough for us to see completely new characters and stories.
Wow… Bardem really DOES have a striking resemblance to Khan. Should they go with that route (and I hope they don’t) let him be the one to play Khan. Though, don’t just go off of looks, please. I do NOT want someone like Bana coming back. He worked for Nero simply because he had so few lines. Does everyone remember that work of art called “The Incredible Hulk” from a few years back??
I just felt the need to say my part on behalf of the overwhelming majority– original story, please!
While I’m not sure that Khan is the way to go for the sequel, I’m even more dubious of this notion of Javier Bardem. Yes, Bardem is a great actor. And yes, Ricardo Montalban made a great villain. But he was a Hispanic actor and Khan was supposed to be of Indian origin. I would hope for a little more creativity and authenticity than just recycling a villain and then using an actor of the same ethnic background as the original just because that’s what they did back in 1966.
Don’t worry the MEDIA is going to force a Khan movie or a cameo in the next movie. O & K need to put it too rest! Otherwise Paramount will start to demand it!
I will skip this movie if Khan is in it! I’m getting so sick of retreads, re-do’s etc. I guess there are no original ideas out there. But there are, but the Media loves to harp on this type of thing. An open universe & we could end up with Khan, ugh!
New Universe, New Stories….PLEASE!!!!!!!
I have to say….. Javier Bardem as new Khan is a very interesting idea !
I’m sorry but thats like sacrilage…. their is no Khan without Montalban, it would be like having an older spock or kirk played by someone else besides Nimoy or Shatner, just shouldnt be done… i for one will probably boycott if its done!!
Well no. I don’t want to see Khan again. I mean they can’t really change the premise of Khan being on the Botany Bay. So either the E finds them again and it turns out roughly the same way on a larger scale – Khan’s intentions won’t have changed – or someone else finds them. In the first case: *yawn* Another angry villain bent on revenge against those, who cast him out. In the second case you take away a bit of the connection with Kirk – the key element, that made the character so successful.
On the other hand in this “alternate”, Khan does not have to be a villain. Maybe this time he’ll show remorse for what he’s done and die in some heroic struggle on the “good” side – like Eddington did. Maybe the E is on the way to investigate whatever (where the villain will meet them) and they run into the Botany Bay by accident. The question is would elder Spock have told them about him and would that be a factor – maybe the deciding factor to turn Khan ? This is a solution I could live with. A nod to the past, but an original story. Another Khan vs Kirk – no, been there, done that.
How about an original story….with Khan?
Oh, here we go again. Anything to keep us interested in the sequel.
Did you guys (TPTB) even bother to look at the results of the voting poll here?
Two-thirds voted no Khan. New story please.
As much as I can’t be bothered to see your first film a second time, I won’t bother with a first time for your sequel if you just rehash plots and characters we’ve seen in TOS episodes and films.
New Story please. Leave Khan right where it is (was).
As mentioned before, how about a story focusing on why the Federation is not allowed to develop cloaking technology
@ 12. But wasn’t it sacrilage a few years ago to have anyone play young kirk and spock ?
Rules or superstition or ideas are meant to be broken.
How about a new story….with Khan?
Why is everyone asking for an original story? I don’t think it means what many here think it means. It’s like if anyone mentions Khan than it’s labeled as an unoriginal story. If that’s the case, why doesn’t anyone ask for an original crew and an original ship? I don’t see anyone here saying “Leave Kirk and crew where they were. Original story.” No, I’m seeing just Khan.
Why?
We don’t know the story! Who even says that if Khan is going to be in the movie that he will be the villian?
I can watch ‘No Country for Old Men’ over and over and over again and I pick up something new from Bardem [and the whole movie, for that matter] every time I watch it.
If they have to do Khan, the writing needs to have layers upon layers for Bardem to work with- the only actor who could pull off the role.
Don’t even try to do Khan without him.
SORRY – please no Khan guys! Please!
6. That One Guy… “I do NOT want someone like Bana coming back. He worked for Nero simply because he had so few lines. Does everyone remember that work of art called “The Incredible Hulk” from a few years back??”
Mr. Bana was excellent in “Munich”, though. He didn’t really get a lot to do in Trek 11, no scene where he could really sell the character like Montalban did in “TWOK”. Montalban got that great scene with Chekov and Terrell, Bana’s scene with Greenwood wasn’t nearly as powerfully written.
I think a female villain would be interesting, i’m not going for the Khan idea very much. He would be a pretty weak villain without going back to space seed and even if they did it wouldn’t be as fun to watch because the story has already been done.
Original story please. Maybe an original story with Khan (as a cameo perhaps) would be better than remaking TWoK, but make it original nonetheless.
Ignore the fanboys, Mr. Orci: go get Bardem as Khan!
An ORIGINAL story and villain please!!!
And no more breweries…BUILD THE DAMN ENGINEERING SET!!!
I would prefer an original story but if they have to do Khan, Bardem is definately the way to go.
#16 – I think it’s a matter of principles. The cloaking device is used when you want to behind enemy line or do a sneak attack. The Federation doesn’t approve such a thing.
Well… Most of it if we don’t count with Section 31.
Bardem is a great choice. Another great possibility is Nestor Carbonell, of Lost and Dark Knight fame. He would be terrific.
Bardem would be utterly FANTASTIC as Khan, but please don’t.
Please, we all know IF they do Khan most Fanboys wants Bardem. Thats a given! Now lets convince K&O we want a new ST movie with an original story.
Don’t waste a movie on Kahn. If you turned this last movie into a a TV show then wasting one episode to re-tell a story that doesn’t need to be retold wouldn’t be as much of a waste. But since there is no TV show that means we need an original story to get us by.
I think it’s a good compromise. Most fans don’t want a Khan sequel but if it must it must be Bardem.
i would like to see him fight not only Kirk but the rest of the crew as Khan. but i dont if i want Khan in the next movie.
Could Javier be as verbose as Montalban was as Khan, or as wonderfully bombastic?
I was in on the January forums when Mr. Orci posted his interest in Bardem taking on the role. I just hope that the sparkle in that writer’s eye about Bardem as Khan isn’t clouding out other possibilities.
Khan seems to be gaining some early momentum with the press, and JJ has expressed sme enthusiasm. Is it a done deal?
I’m really not liking all this Khan talk, please do something ORIGINAL. I’m begging you!
I’ve set it before, I trust these guys.
But I really really don’t have any interest in having them re-visit the Khan character.
I don’t want a re-telling of Space Seed, and I absolutely don’t want another revenge story.
If they want to revisit another TOS character/plot, feel free, but please not Khan.
ANTONIO BANDERAS.
If any man was made to take over the mantle of Khan, it’s him.
As much as I would love to see another Trek movie with Khan in it, I just don’t think you could get anyone to play Khan as well as Ricardo Montalban. Not to mention Mr. Montalban recently passed away, it just seems too soon to replace him as that character.
Please do something original.
Please no Khan. Montalban did a great job and his story was well finished – there is nothing to be gained by revisting it and risking telling an inferior story compared to the original.
Besides, Old Spock would simply tell the alternate Kirk/Spock about Khan and remove the entire element of surprise. Khan would wake up on a prison facility and spend the rest of his life writing his memoirs.
Somehow Khan seems a bit small to be the main focus. This last movie had themes involving alternate timelines, rips in time and the fabric of reality being altered. As an encore to that, Khan’s story seems a little low-key.
The new movie should probably continue with something along those ‘fabric of reality’ lines. The Guardian of Forever and the Mirror Universe seem obvious but maybe they can do something with Apollo or something where they investigate why all these planets are imitating Earth cultures.
Maybe Khan could be the personal antagonist but he just doesn’t seem grand enough just by himself to follow this Star Trek.
I am against Khan being in the next film, EXCEPT for one VERY important story telling method in which I imagine it could go down in great fashion.
Think about it. The next film doesn’t have to be so standalone-ish. It can lead into the third one. So you could indeed have Khan, in dynamic and frightening fashion, if they introduce Khan not as the primary threat in the new film. But more like a by-product of events in the film.
The new film could have an original plot with original baddies and such, but why can’t it tie into meeting Khan? Of course, the timeline is different, so who is to say Khan isn’t already free and running some colony somewhere or something?
But whatever, I think the Bob and Alex could include Khan in an original framework. I personally think that including Khan doesn’t make it un-original. I think on HOW they present Khan will determine originality.
When I think of the ways they can introduce Khan, it gives me chills. You can make him a creepy, freaky villain, especially if he comes from left field, such as not being the initial primary adversary but a product of it.
But hey, whatever happens, I trust this creative team. They proved themselves. They deserve our trust.
I have to say, at least the percentage of people who don’t mind the idea of Khan has increased since the name Javier Bardem was brought into the mix. I’ve been in favor of the idea since first mention and think it’s one of the best ways to go.
For all those who cry “new villian” and “new story”, well, there’s a reason why TMP, TFF, GEN, and INS are considered the worst of the bunch….. because of new villians and new ideas. There was nothing to reference. Paramount knows they have droves of new fans of Star Trek, and they are going to draw them and more in with the next story. The best way to do that is give them a reference from old Trek. Khan is the best way to go.
JJ Abrams was able to bring to Trek what Michael Bay couldn’t do as a whole with Transformers 2….. Great action, SPFX, and…… a good story. I want the next movie to consist of just as good a story as ST09 had, with more depth and circumstance. Khan can do that. Make the next movie Darker, give it the The Dark Knight treatment.
I’d like to see a klingon story. I want to see where they go with them. Will they show them as the TOS version or the Motion Picture version? Or one of the Qs. They’re supposed to be omnipotent aren’t they? So maybe they notice the change in the timeline and they come in contact with humans earlier on.
NO KHAN YOU IDIOTS!!!
NO KHAN!!!
Well if Khan is in the thing, it’ll entirely blow my enthusiasm.
Please, this isn’t a comic book movie. It’s not an “adaption” of another media with the obligation to include the well known things from that “primary” incarnation. Batman, the Joker. That’s because Batman is a comic book and the movies are adaptions of that comic book, not original works in their own right.
This is Trek. It’s a continuation. It doesn’t need to pull people across from another medium. it’s already on screen.
If this trilogy (or series, whatever) devolves into previous Trek’s greatest hits, it’ll be an enormous missed opportunity and will run of steam for the same reason adaption franchises do- once you’ve seen the greatest hits, the classic supervillains, you get into diminishing returns and the “who in the next movie? Egghead? King Tut?” syndrome.
Like many old Trek fans I was open-minded about the rebooty thing and was rewarded with a great film. Trek was exciting again, a whole new vista to explore. Please don’t ruin that. TWOK was a great movie. It’s history. Let’s have something new, please.
i agree no khan, it just couldn’t live it up to the original, it would just be a rehash of treaded ground, and as big a slap in the face as indiana jones 4.
Okay, this is what they said:
” Meaning that if you cast, say, Javier Bardem as the new Khan opposite Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto, you’ve automatically excited fans and attracted the attention of the moviegoing public.”
First of all, which fans are going to get excited, since the VAST majority appear to NOT want a story on Khan, which makes me wonder if they really are reading these forums at all.
Second, the reasoning used regarding “exciting fans” and attracting the attention of the public seems to indicate they are leaning in the direction of a Khan story.
Third, again the mention of another Hispanic actor, Bardem, as Khan, shows both a lack of originality and a play it safe attitude which again makes me think they are leaning towards a Khan story.
They think Khan will be a sure thing.
So, that’s my prediction, folks. We’re getting a Khan story.
This would be a very atypical role for Bardem, and since he didn’t want to play the bad guy in No Country, he may not be interested, particularly without a compelling director attached to the project. I guess it depends on how much Paramount would be willing to lay out for him, and how interesting a role Bob and Alex can make it.
Need new story – plenty of universe out there to explore…
Javier Bardem as Khan: called it, a few months ago. He would be perfect. However, I would prefer the writers go a different route other than bringing back Khan. But if Khan is to be included, Bardem is your man.
Please make an original story. You guys did a great job of it on XI, and I know you can do it again!
They are looking at making the most successful movie possible next, and they think Khan will enable them to do that.
They are going to make a Khan movie, so brace yourselves for impact.
dmducan-
If they have to make a Khan movie to be successful, then Star Trek really is dead in the water.
I Love Khan, Absolutely Love him, but please, come up with something or someone new…. please.
You have sold me on the new versions and adventures of Kirk and Spock, now please make them new and not redos.
With a new timeline original stories would seem better. Movie sequels or not – I want to see another series while we have a young cast!
What if an African-American actor played Khan? Khan is an Arabic name. The character doesn’t have to be Sikh. Lance Reddick would be a great Khan. Or that dude who played Jubal Early in Firefly.
Faran Tahir would’ve been an excellent Khan, too. But noooooo. They had to go and waste him in the first 10 mins.
*sniffle*
I say go with an original story but if you must have Khan, have him be more sympathetic–a tortured and exploited product of genetic manipulation who is perhaps bitter and misguided, but not completely evil.
What if…Robau was a clone of Khan! Problem solved!
You’re welcome.
Please, no Janice Rand. I liked the character in TOS; but, there’s nothing for her to do except be eye candy and I’m so sick of the Front-and-Center Blonde. If you have to do a Janice, make it Dr. Lester. Not crazayzay yet, but getting there.
Oh yeah, if there’s no Gorn in the sequel, I’ll go see the movie six times but I won’t be happy about it. Ok, eight times. But that’s all!
Guys, PLEASE, NO KHAN!! Please, please, please…tell an all original story!!
I wish I could offer more useful suggestions other than to say be ready for the news of a Khan sequel.
41 – I agree. The thing about Space Seed is that it’s not really a Villain of The Week story, or “we need x,y and z to happen to our characters and we need someone to do it” — the story itself was interesting and pretty darned complex, especially compared to episodes of TNG and beyond…
please do not do kahn,introduce a new character, or better yet take a chance on a story that doesnt revolve around a”BAD GUY” persay.
there are all sorts of opprotunities to be had,
returning to kahn is only asking for trouble.
I have to say I am one of the old fans that would prefer the character of Khan remain an icon of the original series and original cast movie. I would much rather see something new and fresh. Since this is an all-new interpretation of Star Trek, let’s have a new plot. Sure, give us old fans our Easter Eggs, but come up with an interesting, well-written, and engaging original script. My opinion, of course.
Do it! I’m not on the fence anymore, I want Bardem as Khan!!!!! How could you not! To not have a great villain return?!?!?! Especially since this is the second just like TWOK.
There still room for original stories after the second movie. The only real question is how do you switch up Space Seed? Maybe it could about Khan committing genocide of another race and whether it’s our responsibility to intervene (a la Sudan). People want science so……..start the movie out at a nebula. People want Gorn, Tholians, or Klingons, so……..start the movie out with a brief attack separate from the story (a la James Bond).
When people see Bardem as Khan, people are gonna shit their pants!!!!
Dammit, I really wish these dumbass interviewers would stop asking about Khan. The studio and the writers are gonna get it in their heads that it’s what the fans REALLY want to see.
Frankly the studio has NOTHING to worry about. Based on the success and popularity of this movie, the audience for the next one is guaranteed to be huge.
Just look at what’s happening with Transformers 2 right now.
You guys aren’t thinking!
If you are going to do a Khan story, you need Lt. McIvors! Hello? Madeline Rhue?! How about some ideas on recasting HER role? Now were talking!
The redhead from Mad Men comes to mind…don’t remember her name.
Or maybe Megan Fox? Orci and Kurzman already know her!
See? Much more fun now.
Oh, and if we go with Bardem, Khan has to carry around a cattle gun at some point.
Bardem as Khan would rule. There’s no two ways around it. Whatever Trek 2/12 ends up being, I’m on board. With Bardem as Khan? I’ll be on board multiple times.
No Khan or Old Trek, new stories please!
nothing against the mentioned actor tough
I haven’t read all the other posts here, but I’ll tell you something right now: If the next movie involves Khan, you can bet Orci+Kurtzman had nothing to do with it! They’re too smart as a screenwriting team to go down that unimaginative road….it would be Abrams who is insisting on it! I smell his sticky fingers all over such a hackneyed, simplistic and obvious plot idea. Abrams loves to stir up a lot of CRAP and the poor writers would have no choice but to tow the company line and get behind him on it!
Can’t Hollywood come up with ONE original idea for once??!!
NO KHAN, PUH-LEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know, it’s rare to have such overwhelming majority of opinion among Star Trek fans, and yet here it is. In a very dominant fashion, the posts are strongly against a Khan remake, or a remake in general. I know Mr. Orci reads these posts, and I know how gracious he is. What puzzles me, and to be honest upsets me, is how Mr. Orci and Mr. Kurtzman just seem to continue thinking it’s a good idea to recycle Khan or other past ideas. I feel kind of helpless and frustrated.
Let’s have a little fun for a minute. Who says even Khan has to be a villian? Perhaps Khan died in the sleeper tube, and his Lieutenant, Joachim could menace Kirk and Company? Different story altogether but is a similar approach. Suffice it to say, the story would be a “pragmatic” approach.
Where the story would go from here would be up to the powers that be to decide. This also would go a long way to appease the fans who reject a Khan storyline. Going even further, WHAT IF, Khan had a son, which had witnessed the death of his father due to a premature awakening, sans the other crew, then was forced to hibernate again due to lack of resources? Oh, would this not prove a giant menace once happened upon and accidentally awakened by Kirk and Company?
Let’s not think “inside the prime box too much,” but let ideas roam freely in the “wild and new” universe.
Has anyone not ever wondered what would it be like if things happened differently? That never was a possibility UNTIL NOW! And the beauty of it is that WE aren’t disrespecting the “PRIME UNIVERSE” doing it.
In essence, we can have our “cake and eat it too.” A very rare and magical thing. I think it should be monopolized upon or at least thought of seriously. It seems alot of people are having difficulty “thinking outside the ‘Prime Box’.”
Nestor Carbonell – whoever said that is spot on the money. He’d be great.
And for the love of God, please no more breweries.
Also, my idea in post #67 would be “right down JJ’s alley,” as is mentioned earlier in this thread. I don’t see why people are having such a narrow view of this storyline. To blindly say “hell no,” is not only doing creativity a great dis-service, it is also saying that TWOK cannot be improved upon or stories created which branch from it. That is a gigantic statement I won’t paint myself as saying.
Nah, we can think outside the “Prime Box”, we just don’t feel like watching a “different spin” done on this character.
There’s a whole universe to pick from and we are being asked to accept rehashed beans?? No thanks!
New stuff, please. We have great Khan stuff already. There’s a new world to explore. Drop some easter eggs but forge ahead with something new!
@ #71
You really didn’t read the whole post did you Harry?
I suggest you read the entire post before you decide to close your mind further. Refer to my posts #67, #68, and #70. I think a something along those lines have valid storylines OR I could see this happening in the “Alternate Universe.”
Please, no new Khan….Please? With all the talent you two have as writers, (Bob and Alex), IM sure that you can give us something that is as good or better than anything to date. However, Javier Bardem would make a great villian! He blew me away in No Country for Old Men! He was just so quiet but also very sinister and you never knew what he was going to do……ever. Weather human or alian, he would rule over each scene he is in. And dare I say that the cast regulars would need to be at the tip top of there game.
Star Trek was and is great, and IM excited for it’s future!
If they try recreating TWOK I’ll go up in arms. 1) ST:IX wasnt exactly inspiration for script those Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman writers are HUGELY over-rated hacks. 2) I class ST: The motion picture to have a better script. Then ST:XI. ST:XI was just omg-wow-camera-flare, with a 20th century factory in every room on the enterprise.
Whilst I endure ST: Reinvision because its this or nothing. Surely these hacks could do better. Shit even ST: V had a better script.
I just hate these money grabbers in hollywood. People should knock those bastards off their mountain of cash they don’t deserve it.
Why this fixation on Khan? Whales grossed more, if that’s the main motivation.
Want to cast Bardem to attract attention? Give him an original role, it will keep the intrigue going.
And please – since when Star Trek became all about Khan, or even about beating the bad guys?
It always was about finding understanding with bad guys, making peace with them and finding out that they were not that bad after all.
Wrath of Khan was the biggest abberation from that core Star Trek idea, out of all the TOS movies. Khan just died a raging maniac bringing about the most harm he could.
And somehow it ends up being a model Star Trek movie? Why? And as was pointed out, it wasn’t the most successfull of them.
Infinite diversity in infinite combinations, people – how about that for a Star Trek idea?
Or how about that – fine, use Khan, but this time make him come around. Eh?
#40 – You took the words right off of my keyboard. New story with Khan tying into it somehow, hopefully as a lead-in to a 3rd movie.
Now we’re cookin’.
#18 asks “If that’s the case, why doesn’t anyone ask for an original crew and an original ship?”
You mean, like all of us who HAVE done so?
@ #76
I agree with you Nata, but not in whole. Star Trek’s main ideology is to deal with the “Human Equation,” and unfortunately, in that equation, there exists very positive and negative extremes. It resonated and still resonates with the masses due to having the fortitude to approach topics which normally would offend if portrayed without the “representative elements,” much like Mr. Spock being the representative “sane and normal one” looking from the outside upon a shipload of illogical and emotional but rational and sensible men, who collectively represented the society’s views of things at the time, but a “larger picture” was necessary to get the message across. In film, no one likes to be directly preached at or made to feel they are wrong and the film is teaching something, but that is the genius of Star Trek and all of the “representative elements.”
#75: “If they try recreating TWOK I’ll go up in arms.”
Shouldn’t you be up in arms already, then? Last I checked, Nero was just one in a string of cheesy cut-rate Khan knockoffs.
“I DARE YOU TO DO BETTER!”
Sheesh Bardem doesn’t even look like Khan. As another said- why do we keep bringing up Khan for the sequal if the majority of people are against Khan being in the sequal?
If they don’t listen to us as mentioned in the 50/50 quote, then how can we take any of all this seriously?
As others have said- original story please. Stop rehashing what we’ve seen already.
Strange new worlds. That’s what I’d like to see in the next movie. Not enough of that in the films. Khan would be more of the same.
Well aside from the fact that I think it’s a terrible idea and I have no desire to see anyone replace Ricardo Montalban, plus this Kirk will have none of the life experiences the real one had (like how I worded that?) to deal with it….and then again why are we visiting something from a time line they’ve chosen not to deal with…I have this to say again…..
And I preface it with….I’m certainly no practicioner of political correctness but again doesn’t it seem strange to anyone that we’re all throwing around Hispanic actors names to play a role that was originally supposed to be of Middle Eastern descent? And in Hollywood of all places. No one thinks this is weird?! Or is that another fact the boys in charge are’nt real familiar with or have chosen to ignore because it’s too complicated?
No writers strike. No boundaries on future cannon. No need for Khan.
Khan?? Ehhchk!!
It’s BEEN DONE! TV and Movie.
The Gorn… The Squire… Eidith Keeler!
If you’re gonna give us something we’ve seen before, at least give us something we haven’t seen before TWICE!!
#73
No, I DID read them, but I don’t care if it’s being suggested that Khan’s nephew is being cloned to come back as a midget goat…….LET’S SEE A MOVIE THAT DOESN’T BASE ITSELF ON THE KHAN SAGA!
The producers of Superman Returns made the same stupid mistake by going again with Lex Luthor as the villian! My gawd, Supes had many villians in his 70 year career, like Brainiac, but NO, Hollywood thinks the answer is Luthor Luthor Luthor!!! WRONG!!
How about them writing a story where we don’t have ANY idea what’s coming and have it surprise and scare the hell out of us??!!
Nah, that makes too much friggin’ sense!!
Goes to show no one has an ORIGINAL thought in their head.
Screw new Kahn, Come up with your own idea.
Has the movie making industry run out of good ideas? What the frig.
@ #85
Oh, Harry, if we were 20 years ago, you could do a storyline about ANYTHING and the public would eat it up. Today, with the general mass-media-going public, the trend is very different. The general public is very finicky on what they consume as media and THEY WANT IT NOW! To that end, studios and other media outlets are investing in already established villians for popular heroes. Like the countless Batman movies with our great bat-hero fighting the JOKER. Alot of folks would have loved it if they put in more Penguin or a lesser-known villian, but simply, the JOKER is one that is the most well-known. And in this economy of demanding and somewhat ADHD media consumers, it’s not a big surprise we don’t have those greater lesser-known villians. I can understand why but often I wish for more diversity. But, why waste good money on a feature film which has less appeal on a lesser villian???
Your thoughts….
I would have to agree with others. If all they can come up with (or force down our throats is another movie about Khan), then I might just pass on the next movie. Any remake will surely be a cheap substitute or knock off from the original. And the majority of movies that were later remade, the original most of the time ends up being the better movie no matter how modernized the new one is.
Why is Hollywood always trying to take the easy way out when it makes movies? What ever happened to risk anymore? Lucas took a risk making Star Wars and look what came out of that?!
Oh and give us some slower moments in the sequal. Not all the viewers have ADD that watch these movies. It doesn’t have to be non stop action for the ENTIRE movie. I just watched the new Transformers and the pacing of the movie was just too much. Cutting every shot with seconds of showing it, etc.
Forget Kahn. I want to see Chri’s Pine’s Kirk outwit a CGI Gorn!!
#89
You mentioned 20 years ago……how about 30 years ago? I am reminded of a little known film that came out in 1979……Ridley Scott’s ALIEN.
My gawd, that movie scared the hell out of us!!! The word of mouth SOLD that one to the public!
I guess I’d like to see some “daring” film-maker dazzle the masses like that again!
Unfortunately, that would require someone with brains, guts, imagination, originality and fortitude. Maybe it would help to find backers who share the same vision?
They say Hollywood is where Art meets Commerce……too bad Art left town 15 years ago!
If it weren’t for “Jaws,” and Lucas realizing that a “new era” of Summer Blockbuster films were beginning it might be totally different. The MAJOR success of ST:XI proves this point even now, the formula works with Summer Tent-pole releases.
As far as Lucas being a genius with “Star Wars: A New Hope,” I admit he was, then Star Trek responded with ST:TMP, but Lucas has painted his universe into a “BOX.” The only way you can go in the Star Wars universe is FORWARD and BACKWARD, that’s it.
Now you realize the SHEER GENIUS of those behind ST:XI! Not only did they sucessfully accomplished a great “REBOOT,” they also have liberated the great thing which IS STAR TREK from the same “BOX” that Star Wars is entrenched in.
I for one realize this fact and applaud PARAMOUNT and JJ and Company (O/K/L,) for it. Why should we disallow them to play in the same playground they have THOUGHTFULLY created for us and HAS revived a series from the brink of extinction?
@ #92 Harry, THAT MOVIE still makes me jump every time I see that darn alien jump off whatever it is….LOL! I LOVE ALIEN, but there we go again…who knows maybe ALIEN needs a REBOOT!
Antonio Banderas
I really love the idea of Javier Bardem as the new Khan; but I do not know if he should be the second film right away. I mean, the Wrath of Khan seems to be the original film that many, if not most people, compares the other Star Trek films to.
Even the new Star Trek was compared to Khan in some of the reviews I read.
I say, the second movie needs to establish a few things:
1. Make it clear they are on a five year mission of exploration. Maybe give the audience a sense that some time has past by having them mention events that happened between the two movies. Maybe open the story with a funeral on the Enterprise. Have Kirk give a speach and Scotty play bagpipes. Kirk gives a proper military speech to the crew about the person who the funeral for. Then later have someone–Pike maybe?–talking to Kirk–from Starfleet headquarters to Enterprise on a private communications–say something like, “I heard what happened to your friend good friend Gary Mitchell. It’s too bad. He was a good man,” It’s a treat for the old fans and lets them know that some stories from the other timeline are identical to the new timeline. And the new fans will get to see Captain Kirk as a mature man and leader, who controls his emotions in front of the crew; but still is a human.
2. I really want to see Klingons what they look like in this timeline. Bumps or no bumps. They do not have to be the main bad guys, but I would be happy if we see them maybe like we did in the Motion Picture.
3. Javier Bardem as the new Khan is great, but it’s expected now. Hold out for the third film and use Phillip Seymore Hoffman as Harry Mudd. He would have made it on the Next Generation had the actor not passed. He’s a fun character that made it to two episodes of the original.
Maybe write the sequal and the third one at the same time. Save Kahn for the very end of the second film. I mean have the Enterprise at the end of the second film find the Bottony Bay and have something of a cliffhanger ending. It worked for Empire Strikes Back…..It worked for the second Pirates movie.
Of course that’s how I would do it. But at the end of the day….I’m nobody
#94 “ALIEN needs a REBOOT”
Yeah, they’re gonna start working on that, right after they finish production on GILLIGAN’S ISLAND:THE MOTION PICTURE!
Sheesh!!
@ #96
I like that idea very much NOTBOB. I agree, I think the audience wants to see more of what makes these new characters tick. Are they the same? What flaws do they have and are they believable in those flaws?
The characters have to be fleshed-out with bios first, but assuming that is done already, we can easily write and place them in scenarios which gives great dramatic exposition AND makes sense — IT is believable!
The major drawbacks in the “new universe” is that EVERYBODY expects and assumes THEY are the SAME — they are not. They are ALTERNATES! It would be statistically impossible for them to react in the same way, at the same time, and for the same reason.
It is becoming more apparent to me that it will take more than the DESTRUCTION OF VULCAN to reinforce the fact that THESE GUYS ARE ALTERNATES.
“You are a child of two worlds. The decision now is, which path will you choose?”
I CHOOSE BOTH! Or, rather, I ACCEPT both. To deny either, or, is deciding that since 1966, I have BELIEVED in nothing.
IF, there is khan…why don’t they:
Have plot A.,) be a first contact story, or something, and then to complicate matters have them run into the Botany Bay.
It’s not that difficult.
Personally, I’d like to see something I wouldn’t expect.
I can’t spell either. Now I know why kids use acronyms.
I also wanted to add a few things that should be mentioned and or seen in the sequel
1. Carol Marcus and Kirk’s relationship. I mean they had a kid. It always seems funny that she really doesn’t have a whole lot more about her.
2. Bones girlfriend or was it ex-wife? and the salt sucker alien. I actually kind of wish that could be shown somehow as I want to see what the new film would make it look like. I also would like to see the tubercular lizardman–the Gorn in a movie; but he might end up looking like Bossk from Empire.
3. Nurse Chappel has to be seen and made into a clear character.
Know what needs a reboot?
This franchise if they do Khan junk. Re – boot their butts out the door until they come back with an original idea for once.
How dare anyone try to replace Ricardo.
Shame on them if they even think it.
I would rather appreciate something that is a bit more creative than a Khan reboot…
But if a Khan movie NEEDS to be made, at least use an Indian actor. Can’t have a hispanic dude with the last name Khan…it’s not the 60s anymore…
Though we do have a middle eastern guy with the last name Robau…ugh…
98. Trekwebmaster –
I understand and agree that these guys are alternates; but for every difference, there seems to be a whole lot of similarities…otherwise why else would all of the crew get together? Why would Pike be the Captian then followed by Kirk–who in this timeline joined layer in age if I have it right? Why would McCoy be a doctor here and there? And without the similarities of character and events….why should I bother watching? So I kind of want some events to be identicle….just because it’s more satisfying to me personally.
Plus, as a storyline, I personally do not think it would be wise to just dismiss everything that happens on the other five year mission. It may not be scientific–and I do like things to be accurate; but I can understand and accept taking liberties….like noise and explosions in space. Also, I think it would be a huge slap in the face the the old fans to say , “hey this is an alternate world so evrything….I mean everything from here on out will be completely different.”
But at the end of the day it comes down to this:
A lot of folks talk Khan and Javier Bardem as the new Khan for sequal ideas and I think because it’s so obvious it should be held off. At least for number II. Plus I really dig the idea of Phillip Seymore Hoffman as Harry Mudd. That and I wish they could mention somehow that Commander Tucker did not die or if he did die he died in a much more clever and interesting way.
Ah ha! I’ve got it! The klingons find Khan floating out in space, awaken him, and he genetically alters them to have bumpy foreheads! That’s the ticket!
Here’s my two qautloos on the Khan/Javier Bardem debate .
He is an excellent actor and would do the role justice , but save him as for a mention at the end of the movie , so it’ll lead into the third movie .
This next film needs Kirk and Spock’s first battle with Klingons , pre Errand of Mercy .
Cast some one like that guy from 300 or That guy from Gladiator as a brand new never seen klingon , with forehead ridges , big busy hair fu manchu moustaches , goatees , and armor , baldrics , bat’leths, dk’taghs , and disrupters .
We need Klingons !
Coming in the summer of 2011 ……
STAR TREK : FIRE AND STEEL
Qa’Pla!!
Some Conjectural Character Analysis: JAMES TIBERIUS KIRK
Kobayashi Maru: Prime Version – Kirk received a commendation for original thinking. No hearing. Received command much later in career. Takes risks but only if he wins. Does not believe in the no-win scenario, but only if he can change it. Neurotic about command and duty.
Kobayashi Maru: Alternate Version – Kirk is arraigned in a disrupted hearing. Recieved command earlier by several years. Takes risks using other’s to his advantage which could indicate immature ethical structure. Seems less neurotic about command and duty at this current age or stage of career.
Personally, I don’t know why so many are dead set against Khan coming back. Hell, everybody else came back. I think they’ve been replaced ably and did a good job. No offense to Montalban. Hell, Ricardo was one of the best actors to ever be on Trek. He certainly outclassed Shatner.
Only to be beaten down by a miniscule Kirk using a hollow plastic tube. I mean, come on guys, even as a kid, when I saw the original episode, I couldn’t believe it.
How nice it would be to see Kirk more believably kick Khan’s ass. And that’s what this next film needs. Kirk really needs to kick the ass of a superior enemy, because he was a bit of a candy-ass in this first movie. I liked Pine, but we really need to see Kirk overcome the Superior Intellect. Right now we’ve been given a passionate Kirk, and I liked that. Now we need to see the rest of him – the intellect, and the (better) fighter that he was. Except for Khan. Shatner just could not overpower the presence of Montalban. The only reason he won was because he was the star of the show.
I knew that even as a kid.
With somebody like Bardem in the role, and if they played the fight as the savage kick-ass, no-holds barred thing it should be, this could be a really good thing.
They’re obviously looking for a charismatic enemy, and Javier is the guy to play that. He’s a superb actor, equal to Montalban. Now that he’s been mentioned, I’d be really disappointed if they do Khan and not have him on board. I can’t think of anybody else who could do it better. Physically, I’m sure they could find a more intimidating actor, but who would have the same acting ability?
Personally, I’m pumped about the idea. I think it can work. We can have a great, well-rounded villain, and also get back our balls-to-the-wall James T. Kirk as well.
Sorry, that was kind of rambling and verbose for me. I’m just tired of the closed-minded hate that goes on here. I wonder how many of you also hated the idea of this current movie?
I’m choosing to trust these guys right now. Star Trek was is the only thing that Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have ever done that I’ve liked. It isn’t perfect but I wasn’t expecting that. They did it well enough that I’ll support them on this. I mean, hell, guys, they brought Star Trek back. And it looks and feels enough like the original to me. It is Star Trek. It had to evolve. Everything does. Or are you guys not Darwinian?
Blah blah blah. Blah blah bleh. Bleh blebeh, blah blah blah bleh bleh.
That’s the title they can use
Star Trek: We need Klingons !
Actually, I think that now that this reboot is just Star Trek, they should stop using numbers. It doesn’t need numbers….just different titles.
Star Trek: The Attack of the Gorns
Guys, come up with something new.. please.
@ #103
Actually NOTBOB, I agree with you more than my writing seems to. I also like accuracy, but I suppose this is one of those times where our “best guess,” is appropriate.
I don’t think “horribly different” is a good idea but err on being “slightly different,” which is written very “uniquely.”
Some things must stay “static,” like Dr. McCoy or Scott the engineer, but also if they can change it in a unique way, like Kirk (Pine,) having blue eyes, I am all for it. BUT, it must work and IT must be believable. Blond hair is stretching it but I accepted it the same as Quinto’s Spock character. IT is believable in context of the “alternate universe.”
I don’t mean to be “preachy,” but just giving a “die-hard,” STAR TREK follower’s perspective of the last 4 decades. This proves very strange being out of my “TOS comfort zone,” sometimes we need that, I guess. Not sure about you, but I find this “reboot” also as pleasantly refreshing (said in Talosian Keeper’s voice.)
I GROK BOTH SPOCKS…lol errr… TREKS…ooops, sorry….but have we become so “inflexible as to constitute a J/O/L/K??? (my tip-of-the-hat to show approval to JJ and company…LOL. Ok time to sign off, I am knee deep in Tribbles and Saurian brandy!
God you people complain so much. These guys know what they are doing! Whether they bring back Khan, or something else, they’ve earned our trust.
Whether its complaining about this or crying because Shatner hasn’t seen the new movie yet…its just unbelievable.
How bout this:
John Malcovich plays an andorian who still has a grudge against Vulcans. The Vulcans have no home planet, and some of them end up going to a planet where Malcovich’s Andorian bad guy lives.
Malcovich has a following group who are loyal to him as they once served under him while he and they were in Star Fleet. Vin Diesel plays his muscle man bad guy who Kirk must fight fist fight style in the end. His shirt gets torn like in the old series.
Actually, I had this concept in my mind for a five page example I was going to submit to IDW Comics before I heard they aren’t taking submissions for pencilers. I had no dialogue or anything as I was only going to use it as an idea to submit my pencil art. But I never drew it because I read they are not taking submissions. Crappy timing for me.
I had a four pages of of five page scene with Shatner as Kirk meeting an Orian Gangster played by Telly Sovollis drawn out when I read they aren’t taking submissions.
@ #107 I support that argument! KIRK NEEDS A SHAKEDOWN!
NOTBOB, are you using a black-market universal translator spell-checker before you write things? That predilection for inserting famous film actors is most annoying combined with abundant examples of cliches intended to be taken seriously.
That gave me a headache!
Are you going to say now that anyone with a hispanic accent has resemblance to khan?
Damn it, man! You just created a shiny new timeline! Take advantage! Give us something new and never been seen or thought of in sci-fi history.
I grow fatigued of this lack of originality in Hollywood cinema, especially in the part of Orci and Kurtzman( better known as Skids and Mudflap.) who called themselves fans. More like sellouts! Studio execs wants gimmicky scripts to suppplement flashy movies, so skids and mudflap supply them with it for large sums of cash.
excelent….. excelent…..
go suck devastator’s big giant metal balls
so this whole thing is essentially marketing-master JJ Abrams trying to turn the outcry of NO’s by fans into a reason they reuse Khan. Seriously.
Looks like, if you’re against Khan appearing in the next movie (as I most definitely am) you just shouldn’t post under these articles anymore.
I won’t dignify this with any further response.
I have to agree with #9. Don’t give in the the mass media pressure, writers! Keep it fresh and original and keep trying to challenge us with things nobody has done before. Isn’t that what the spirit of TOS was all about?
into* ugh. My apologies for the typo!
Once again with the no Khan. Honestly, Kirk facing up against the Klingon trio would be much better than a Khan story. I think they could make it good, but it shouldnt be made because it already has. My guess is that if they seriously went through with it the backlash from the fans would make our skepticism about ST09 look like…well nothing. Please, just dont.
I’m not sure if Bardem would actually want to play Kahn. He allready said no to Spielberg in Minority Report because he didin’t se himself in Scifi action stuff.
In Spain, the people who rule in the art world consider Science fiction a useless meaningless nonsense for stupid people.
Bardem as Khan!!!
BEST – IDEA – EVER!!!
People, having an original story and having Khan in the movie are not mutually exclusive. Was WOK unoriginal because they were reusing a character from Space Seed? Of course not.
I also just want to point out how reminiscent all this complaining is to when it was announced that the last movie would be about the original crew. “Oh no, Star Trek is about going forward. Stop rehashing everything. Tell new stories with a new crew. No one can ever play the old characters like the original actors.” Wrong. Get over it.
I would personally be very interested in seeing Khan again, especially if they can get someone like Bardem to play him. My only piece of advice: don’t have his motivation be revenge. I really think this is the thing people are most afraid of. That would be a rehash. Khan is a great character and there are plenty of good new stories he could be used in with a little originality, and I for one would love to see it.
Jar Jar Abrams, Skids Orci, Mudflap Kurtzman are like childre who wants to do what they are told not to do because it makes their ego feel better.
I don’t hate the new Trek. Not Entirely. There are a few things that i liked. Like:
-The looks of the other federation starships, updated but with the feel of old trek, also klingon ships.
-The Star Wars style warp in and warp out
-Kelvin Bridge, very TOS
-Simulation bridge was also very TOS
-Pine as kirk, Zoe, as Uhura, Urban as Bones
-Widescreen window with Viewscreen Overlay
-Sickbay TOS heartbeat sounds
-Everything else I hated, like:
-that guy who played curly Chekov. He was not supposed to be there anyway.
-Scotty was portrayed like a sideline gag. He’s a dedicated starfleet officer, you know. Not jarjar binks.
-The new enterprise.
-Pipes
-Glares.
-How things played out as if it was controlled by FATE, like
-The characters where brought together so fast.
-How about kirk’s time on the Farragut? Those experiences are crucial to a starfleet captain.
They could call it…
“Star Trek: Yes We KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!”
How funny would it be, if like, the opening teaser scene was of the Enterprise being elsewhere this time around, and the Botany Bay smacks into an effen meteor?
*Evil grin*
OK, it’s just too hateful, whiney and immature here. So I’m going to AICN for some more intelligent discussions.
THEY SCREWED UP!
They created a new timeline. That means nothing was going to be the same. No events would play out the way it did. The new film HAD POTENTIAL, with something new. But they used old ideas. REHASH.
One piece of technology from the future, One single Idea from the future, would change the present and it’s future exponentialy. CHAOS EFFECT.
A future Romulan Technology, A Theory from the future Federation.
It means Fedaration Technology and knowledge are more advaced in this new timeline. Prime Timeline FOES and problems will be no match, why use them?
Technology will be different. Relationships would be different. Lives are forever changed.
unless they give us something different,
THEY WILL SCREW UP AGAIN!
See?
I mean they found a way around the canon promblem. Canon has no place here anymore.
Its seems like they are still bothered by canon. This is essentially a reboot.
I’ve lurked here for ages…but this is my first post…here goes: what I’d like to see in Star Trek XII/2:
1. More Pike – lets not have him confined to the chair in this new universe. Give him a new ship (the Constitution?). Have him as Kirk’s direct superior and mentor;
2. Rand and Chapel…more strong female characters are required for that audience demographic;
3. More interesting/unique aliens…now we have a bigger budget, lets show how rich and diverse the ST universe is – no more bumpy foreheads and ridged noses;
4. Ditch Wicket W. Warwick (sorry…Keenser – how did he get on a starship?). Bring in R2D2 (sorry…a similar character). Allow me to explain: there are areas in engineering lethal to biological life-forms. Why not give Scotty something similar to an astromech droid as an assistant…in the 24th century, ships use emergency holograms. Droids would be a logical intermediary;
5. Khan…and it is possible to tell a new story. In 2 introduce him in a secondary plot. Yes he still tries to steal the E, but ends up having to work with Kirk at the end to defeat a greater threat. He is later convinced to enlist in Starfleet, along with the other supermen. Kirk and Khan are friends in this universe.
In Trek 3 Khan has beaten even Kirk’s record of achieving command and has his own ship (not Reliant…too obvious). An incident causes Khan’s wife to die, and he sets off for revenge against the people responsible (possibly Klingons). His ship is carrying a powerful weapon, and he aims to obliterate Qonos. Kirk is sent to stop him. (alright maybe too close to Nero) Khan tries to persuade Kirk to help – describing his dead wife as his redemption for all he did in the Eugenics Wars. Kirk refuses, a battle ensues…and Khan’s ship crash lands on Ceti Alpha.
Leave Khan for a couple of movies, until maybe 6…then bring him back for the big Khan v Kirk revenge showdown….but do it differently: no genesis, etc. eg (just throwing something out) he is rescued by Capt Joachim (spelling?) and the other supermen who are also in Starfleet. They are now attempting to stage a coup, (alongside a large number of Soong-type augments who have been surviving on their own colony) and have been seeking their figurehead. Khan sees opportunity for revenge against Kirk for leaving him stranded…the sole survivor of his ship.
Khan’s will is set against Kirk, he has a fleet of starships at his disposal, and all his effort is to kill his nemesis…however Joachim and the others see Khan as an obstacle to their plans. Why is Khan chasing Kirk, when they could have the galaxy? They oust him and put him off the ship. He is rescued by Kirk, and obtains final redemption by giving his life to save the Federation. Khan the hero.
6. More McCoy…ST is a triad, triumvirate, threesome…if you will. Not enough Bones is like Porthos and Athos without Aramis. (wait, didn’t Scotty make Porthos disappear…lol!). Bones was the best played character in ST 09, and I would love to see more of his backstory – the divorce, his children, etc.
7. More Scotty…and not just as comic relief. Give him his time at the conn as second officer. Show him as a miracle worker. Give him a drinking session with Bones…weren’t they (according to the novels at least) friends for a time as children? I would have loved to have seen that acknowledged in ST 09. Bones: Scotty? The Montgomery Scott from Aberdeen? The Montgomery Scott who broke my leg playing soccer because he plays so dirty? Scotty: Lenny? Little Lenny McCoy? How are ya mate?
8. More Sarek.
9. Character development for previously underwritten characters: Chekov and Uhura in particular. Even after 43 years we know very little about who they are…and here’s the poison word…canonically: as the books are merely persuasive.
10. Keep the lens flares…I didn’t find them distracting at all.
Sorry about the length of this post, but just one more point. A couple of posters were discussing why the Federation is not allowed to use the cloaking device. I always had the theory that Earth used them during the Romulan War, thus Earth (and later, by extension the Federation), were forbidden from using them by the treaty that ended that war.
How about familiar characters mixed with new ones in an original story? Take stuff we already know, then add a new twist to it / add on to it. That way we can have our cake and eat it too.
I think this would satisfy both new and old fans, instead of one or the other. That’s what they did in ST09 and that’s one of the big reasons why it was so successful.
114. Trekwebmaster – July 5, 2009
LOL…Like I said earlier, I can’t spell. I blame a teacher who told me that she was going to teach me the three “r”s –reading, writing, and arithmetic. Even as a horrible speller I realized that made no sense; so I just stopped paying attention to her. Then I got to college and discovered most of my teachers were awful spellers. But I want a gig drawing…so spelling doesn’t count.
As for the using famous actors, I always hate when comics use images that weren’t identifiable for a series based on movies and or tv shows. If a comic book is based on a film or show, I feel that the characters should look like the actors. And the guest characters would be guest actors like shows and films often do. That’s just my taste.
I mean, I could use people I know as models for character–or I even can just make up a face of my own–but that’s not a challenge to my drawing skills because no one knows what my ex looks like, or best friend looks like. Besides, using actors as models worked for Rags Morales and Gordon Purcell used John Tesh in a Deep Space 9 comic I bought when I was a kid–and I liked it. It’s all subjective.
Anyways, I do appreciate the honest response. I’ve always preferred someone giving me an honest assessment than someone just telling me what they think I want to hear.
Ultimately, it doesn’t matter since IDW is not taking submissions from people wanting jobs as pencillers. So, I guess my hunt for my dream job–I’m laid off because of the wonderful economic times, so I figured why not go for the dream–will just be a dream. Too bad because I liked the new movie a lot and I am a fan of the original show too and would love a job drawing stories for the comics.
I know I am likely in the minority but this is an obvious solution to me.
Write an original “A” story. In the contest of that story, The Enterprise comes across The Bottany Bay and Kahn and it ends up as the “B” story.
The fact is, they have to do Space Seed way before they can do The Wrath of Kahn. And Space Seed, in my humble opinion, doesnt lend itself to a two hour, big budget, summer blockbuster. But as a very cool “B” story it would be a great thing. AND set up the eventual return in ten years or so.
@ 130
3. I agree. Planets seems too near to each other. Space scenes / battles seems too confined to one small section, and seems like all ships are horizonally oriented the same way as if space has a floor or cieling. (reference to futurama, blockade in space). And why stay in the Alpha Quadrant? Im also tired of bumpy heads and ridge noses.
4. Hmmm you’re right. They have androids, holograms, computers, but no mechanic droids. Not a lot anyway.
5. I hope they avoid use of Khan if possible. But, Wouldn’t a strong presence of a protagonist like khan be downplayed like that? it would be better if another crew, another ship find the Botany Bay. Like you said, its a big universe, the Enterprise is not the only ship in the fleet. The Enteprise versus Another Starfleet Ship controlled by the superhumans, a chase in warpspeed, is an okay idea. Been Used before.
7. I like characters like TOS Scott and Sulu. They seem like the clean cut, diligent, dedicated officer type, but not uptight and a pain.
8. Sarek was great. He had this aura like TOS Sarek. I enjoyed it.
9. Canon don’t matter in this timeline.
10. Yes, but not to much flare. Just a little.
The fans should have by now figured out that anything is possible. Nothing is sacred and only enhanced. As long as the film is executed well [which you know it will be] you will love it with the jaw dropping and the slobbering and the hey hey hey.
Hi! Here is my wishlist for Star Trek XII :
-No more Uhura/Spock romance : it is so wrong! (Nichelle is the One and Only Uhura)
-More Kirk/Spock/Mc Coy/Scotty relationship
-Leonard Nimoy back with Brent Spiner, Michael Dorn and Jonathan Frakes (Data, Worf and Riker in TNG)
-Klingons back
-More Sulu/Chekov/Uhura relationship
-Pike back (Bruce Greenwood does an awesome job in ST11)
About characters :
-More George Kirk (ok, he’s got a bad fate but in a flashback scene for example)
-More characters development (Scotty, Mc Coy, Sulu, Chekov for example)
-More Sarek and Vulcans (how do they face their new situation after Vulcan’s destruction)
and keeping the same humour, directing (please Mr Abrams, come back!) and action as in Star Trek 11.
Space seed wasn’t a fanatastic episode, but WOK was a masterpiece , I also would recommend banderas, Just watch desperado!
I don’t want Khan. To be honest, I never liked Montalban, Space Seed and TWOK. But, if there has to be a new Khan, Bardem is the man.
Why do the Interviewing people end up bring up Khan, most likely Khan was in the second movie so they must have closed minds and can only think in patterns that all ready exist. And if Khan is in the second movie does this not force Star Trek down the same dead end path of 10 movies it JJ’s movies die out.
So if JJ does not wish to repeat the past paths again, there is another option called drive a new path and make your own new roads to travel. I’m sure JJ has a good adventurous mind and can create new stories thus make Lucus look like a sit-com writer. And for those that keep dreaming of Khan again I’d guess your IQ’s may have trouble filling up counting on your fingers and toes.
If you want Khan, please wait until the guy after JJ starts making Star Trek Movies. Figure JJ has at least 2 more movies and if they are great ones then look at 6+ JJ movies. After that maybe start looking in the direction of the other four series. And pay tribute to those fine actors.
#76 “Wrath of Khan was the biggest abberation from that core Star Trek idea, out of all the TOS movies. Khan just died a raging maniac bringing about the most harm he could.”
Well said. TWOK is well made, but it’s very far from what Trek was meant to be. IMHO.
Philip Seymour Hoffman as Mudd for Star Trek: The wrath of the Con
I won’t say it anymore
Taht’s it, If you do Khan then it turns out you will just be rehashing the classics.
I want fresh stories not remakes.
They use this alternate universe to get round canon insistencies, not to rehash the great stuff.
Enterpruise rehashed stories and it was a factor a lot of fans didn’t like. Now you are all clammering for a rehashed story beacause these guys are flavour of the month.
I love Star Trek XI, (its separate from the rest and misses the philosophy of Trek but it is a fun movie) But I want an original story where only Trek takes us.
Khan is a great film, it is my favourite, but it does not need to be revisited.
If the classics start getting remade then you will have one super angry Trek fan.
I want something original and a story that is unique to Trek.
PLEASE. THis is the future of the greatest SCI FI show, please don’t turn the classics into dumbed down inferior versions.
If all is rehashed then I will be counting the days till Team Abrams is out of Trek
I agree…Antonio Banderas is a smart, menacing MoFo….
As I said, I don’t want Khan, but we have to drop some prejudice. Having Khan doesn’t necessarily mean a “rehased” story. Same character, original and different (and exciting?) story. It’s possible, having a totally new alternate universe.
I wouldn’t do this kind of thing but, please, don’t start bashing a movie before the writers start writing :)
No 83: “Strange new worlds. That’s what I’d like to see in the next movie. Not enough of that in the films.”
Absolutely. We won’t have many of these films – let’s get the most out of them.
Has anyone ever noticed, though, that none of the TOS episodes ever began with them actually finding a strange new world and going down there to explore it-? (Except Miri, and that world wasn’t so strange.) It’s actually not a very dramatic way to kick off a story… so something always had to happen to the Enterprise when it was presumably on its way to do just that, and distract them from it.
So there’s the challenge – find some way to give them a new world to explore, a good dramatic reason for them to explore that particular planet, and, some scary and interesting unknowns for them to deal with while they’re there.
As for Khan – if you bring him back – and please don’t – you either have to rewrite his whole history or explain why none of us noticed those eugenics wars in the 90s.
I am trying not to bash
I am just stating a direction that I dont want these writers to go in.
THe writers are not as strong as past writers, so hopefully we get film that is original, God Star Trek is about exploring the galxy, more to it than just Khan and the Borg.
If all is remade then I think I will be counting the days till these guys are gone
Please please please respect the fans but don’t listen to the fans!!! listen to the mainstream.
You will lose more fans if you start rehasing the originals
Watch Star Trek and learn the true heart of Trek and then write a great story
If I want to see Khan, I’ll watch the great Montalban in Space Seed and TWOK, two original masterpieces.
strange NEW worlds, NEW life and NEW civilizations…plz :)
#147 “THe writers are not as strong as past writers”
I wouldn’t say that. Every writer have a different style. In the past I’ve seen some very good Trek, and a lot of awful Trek. When it comes to movies, the scenario is for the awful, in my humble opinion. For me, ST09 was far better than First Contact, but this is a personal feeling.
You know, to properly judge a Trek writer we need a full series. Movies are a story apart.
Another vote for an original story. Make use of what’s happened in the first film to develop a story for the second
#135 “you will love it with the jaw dropping and the slobbering and the hey hey hey”
I see that, at some point, you have sat next to me in a movie theatre! :>)
Yes, I knew it. Go ahead and just remake Space Seed, you unoriginal, untalented hacks. Because it worked in Dark Knight you simply HAVE TO do it!
Rehashing old ideas that have already been visited a couple of times (Space Seed, TWOK, and novels) make this fresh, rebooted universe even FRESHER!!!
Hail to unoriginality!
Don’t you see how STUPID this would be?
Oh, a fresh, new, shiny, flickering Star Trek. But it’s so WEAK that it has to borrow the villainsand stories from the original 1960s show. It can’t even stand on its own feet.
Khan is not a comic book villain that appears in every single issue of Batman. Star Trek is SO MUCH MORE than just “Kirk vs. Khan”.
150- agreed
can I ask if you like the latest movie?
I have to agree with several others…no Khan please!! I do read this forum and others on startrek and i think they should go back to why we all love Trek in the first place. I mean TWOK was practically one of the best Trek movies because it had a strong story to it. I personally would love to see the new crew venture off into the unknown or something like that to find new aliens or even run into a few old ones
156
Agreed
Trek is more than Khan and the Borg, I love both but Trek is about exploring the galaxy
#156 “Khan is not a comic book villain that appears in every single issue of Batman.”
No, those would be the Borgs ;)
I laugh when people say any of us questioning the use of Khan in the next movie are being “hateful”.
There is nothing wrong with some of us objecting when a mediocre idea is suggested for the sequel! The writers are on record for saying they want fan input. Well, THAT’S our input…….using Khan would NOT steer the Trek franchise in a good direction!
‘Nuff said!
I’m at a loss why there can even be a debate about whether to make the sequel a remake. Such a move would only showcase their creative bancruptcy – given that even their first movie, despite all its flaws, was NOT a remake plot-wise.
” To seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where no man has gone before…”
Khan’s kinda a BTDT thing…
#161 “I laugh when people say any of us questioning the use of Khan in the next movie are being “hateful”.”
Agreed. Every fan is entitled to his own opinion, as long as opinions are expressed in a polite way, without insults.
There is one single thing I can’t stand about some reasonings: considering Trek some kind of untouchable, sacred ground, where you have to respect sanctity by doing things right. This is the quintessence of close-mindness, in my opinion.
BTDT- What’s that mean. People here are always using weird abbreviations.
An original storyline would be a lot more creative.
The following suggestion is radical and revolutionary: How about an INDIAN actor to play a character who, after all, is INDIAN???
For crying out loud.
Khan is just a character! You can have his character be in the movie AND tell an original story!
NO GOD DAMN KHAN.
CAN’T YOU GUYS THINK OF SOMETHING ELSE, WE ARE GETTING INTO SUPERMAN RETURNS TERRITORY HERE WITH PLAGARISM AND NO ORIGINALITY.
#166: It might seem more revolutionary if it weren’t the third time already in this thread, let alone the several other times it’s been brought up on the site.
#167: I could, sure. You could, sure. A randomly-selected animal from a nearby animal shelter probably could, too. But Orci & Kurtzman? Let’s not overtax the talent.
I am compelled to chip in…
It all feels just a bit too much of a formula. I know you can’t pitch a movie these days without one, but “It’s like Star Trek Meets Old Country Meets The Wrath of Khan” just depresses me a little.
Why not get them to do more epic stuff, like try and work out how to save Vulcan or something rather than defeat a “crazed villian hell bent on getting his revenge” for two films in a row?
Or… Khan kills Uhura, Spock goes mad, turns into Sylar and starts eating the brains of the crew. We could call it’s “Spock’s Brains”.
Seriously, (well, not THAT seriously), they can do things to the destiny and characters of the crew now. That would be more interesting than lets defeat this year’s villian.
The Dark Knight used the Joker, look how well that film did. So why cant Star Trek: something something use Khan??
Because Star Trek is not a comic book
All the Khan talk is just to throw everybody off. They’re really intending to bring back V’Ger. But, seriously – these guys are smart enough to use any character and make it original. They could even use old series characters just for small bit parts. For example, wouldn’t it make sense that Spock Prime would warn Starfleet about some of the more dangerous challenges for the crew – such as Charlie X and Khan? The sequel could start out with the new crew going on short missions, cleaning house – like picking up Charlie X while he’s still an infant, and carefully retrieving Khan’s crew and delivering them to Earth to face charges of war crimes. This could be the first 5 minutes of the movie leading into the major plot of the film, which could be an entirely original story. Then they could have their cake and eat it too, because they could get the media publicity of a major actor being cast as Khan – but it would be just for a cameo. Please, before anyone boycott’s the movie – let these guys do what they do best, which is write film scripts.
If the next film features Khan, the franchise will die. Most people do not want Khan. It’s been done twice, and people will find the fim a dissapointment because it won’t measure up to the original. No one can replace Montalban.
If Paramount proceeds with a Khan story, the film will fail. Box office receipts will be half if not more than the first film. Critics will tear a “Khan” film to shreds, and the film will lose the mainstream public.
The continuing posts about who should play Khan is going to convince Paramount (wrongly) that a Khan film should be made. How many failed remakes have we seen from Hollywood in recent years? Way too many. And if a Khan film would happen to make money, then expect further films to feature whales and other stories that we have already seen.
Come on, people, If you are against a Khan film, then speak out! The speculating on who should play Khan is only going to hurt the franchise in the long run. Demand that originality, “new worlds”, and exploration be brought back to Star Trek.
I do hope they leave this Kahn thing alone… I don’t really need to see any of the characters that appeared on TOS back at all, I mean, how big is the universe that they always end up meeting the same 10 people?
Come on guys, TRY TO BE CREATIVE !!!
No Khan please… new story.
Thank you
If the story is in the Alternate universe, and its diferent then the ORIGINAL “Space Seed” or “Wrath of Khan”, then im all for it. I’d love to see an alternate Khan story, but as I said before, TOTALLY different.
Javier Bardem is the prefect actor in my opinion to play Khan. He’s got the Spanish touch and can be PSYCOPATHICaLLY INTELLIGENT with the best of them.
I didn’t exactly like how the Producers/Director planted the FIRST REBOOT, but it was good and if they can make a NEW GREAT KHAN story, I will be VERY HAPPY, and the REBOOT will have been worth it.
PLEASE, NO REBOOTED KAHN STORY! Something Original would be much better!
Just an observation but… the names I see for Khan, Javier Bardem (admittedly awesome) and Banderas (oh, please God, no) are all hispanic while the character of Khan is… Indian! Just because a hispanic played him originally doesn’t mean that a hispanic should always play him if the character is to return.
Just an observation.
Maybe it’s the TOS hound in me but I think the ‘Alternate Reality’ offers the interesting possibilitiy of revisiting the Romulan Commander’s words from ‘Balance of Terror’ – ”In a different reality, I could have called you friend”. Well, we’re now in a different reality. So maybe we could see that? Just a thought. Kirk teamed with the Romulan Commander to taked down Alt-Khan?
As for whether to Khan or not to Khan, I’m leaning heavily towards Khan. But he’d have to be a part of a larger story; not the focus. I’d equate it almost to how Two-Face was interwoven into the Dark Knight. Looking back, he was the thematic backbone of the movie but not its focus. You could then play up the mystery of the character more. Make his intentions ambiguous, maybe even heroic at one point, and then his true intentions are known as he gets a crew member(s) to betray Kirk, attempts to kill Kirk and steal the Enterprise and all of that; but all as part of a larger story in which he is a character who has a role in the larger events. The movie could end with Kirk marooning him and that could lead into either the next movie or a movie down the line. The trick is how to interweave Khan into the larger story thematically and all naturally. But I think that’s the way to go. Trying to blow your wad all at once with Khan in one movie would be a mistake.
Khan’t you let him sleep?
Not that Ricardo wasn’t a perfect Khan, but casting a Latino actor to play an Indian character is, um, a really 1960s thing to do. Like all those white people playing Native Americans in John Wayne movies. How about casting a central Asian actor to play Khan?
It would be nice to have a Starfleet Officer as the villain… leaving Khan well alone. Throw in some proper exploration. Ultimately I’d want Star Trek and its follow-ups to to part of an arc which bring the films back into the Prime Universe. Keeping the recast, but more a part of the original timeline. Some kind of disaster with the whole of Star Trek in jeopardy because of Nero’s influence and giving Kirk the opportunity to fix everything that went wrong. His father’s death. The loss of Vulcan. Fix it, I say.
I vote “NO” on Kahn.
Sure,the broader,non-fan,audience will accept it(they don’t know Kahn-from Noonian Singh-from Rae Dawn Chong),until they hear all the negative buzz about comparing it to the previous incarnations of Kahn.
Why risk it?The universe is now changed because of Nero.Go with it.THERE is the “Undisovered Country”now.
I’m all for a solid (ie.NOT crazy,NOT “here today,gone tomorrow”)villain/antagonist to test the mettle of our heroes.They need their “Mr. Moriarity”.They need their “Field Marshall Rommel”.
Please make it someone NOT from the original series,NOT a Klingon,NOT a Romulan,NOT a Cardassian,etc….
Someone new & original,please.
NO KHAN, Origin of Borg Please
#183 – I agree to the degree that Khan need not be played by a Latino. But lets not get too 2009 PC about it either. IF they need a Khan, let them cast the best actor with the best on-screen chemistry with the Trek cast. Just as Urban played the perfect southern gentleman and Cho played a Japanese helmsman, JJ just needs to get the best actor for the job and not get too hung up on the Latin/Indian issue.
One more thing;
Whatever story you guys do,give us ALOT of PLANET-SIDE ACTION!
I got so weary of all the different series’ episodes, where the entire story took place on their spaceships,in the dark void of outer space.I know these episodes are called “bottle stories”& are cheaper to make.But budget constraints have,thankfully,been removed,by the wild success of the JJ.&O&K crew.
Give us forests,grasslands,deserts,jungles,tundras,alien landscapes&townships,etc….
This should be more doable now-a-days,with CGI tech.
New and Original please guys!!
But Javier Bardem would be a great actor to be part of the Trek family……if you are really interested on him….create a new character for him
No Khan! Stupid idea!
Give us something new.
It’s a endless universe, let’s have something new, please.
How ’bout Roddenberry’s follow up to TMP? The one with Kennedy.
If we are going to see Khan again, I want to see him BEFORE he gets frozen.
Put aside logic. Do what feels right.
Oh, sorry. That was terrible advice. Please disregard it.
If one looked at the recent polls… visitors of this site say NO KHAN.
But… many griped about the design changes of the film (nacelles, among others), and see how well they turned out.
As far as I’m concerned … the uberfans should have little say in what entails the next story. If the Supreme Court had heeded the advice of all those naysayers resistant to change… we’d have had an entirely different, and negative, movie experience.
Orci, Kurtzman, et al … GO with Khan, but make it good.
The two most prominent problems with Star Trek (and one of them JJ mentioned) is that there are a lot of happenings heard about and told about in Star Trek but we have never seen it, and they did it in the new movie as well. We never saw the battle with Nero and the fleet of Starfleet ships, we never saw the wolf 359 battle, and we never saw the Romulan war. The great battle we did get to see were all the battles during the Dominion wars. And those are just battles, there are other things mentioned in Star Trek that would not have been a painstaking process to add. The second problem with Star Trek is they like to revisit old ideas..many times. Some Enterprise episodes were TOS and TNG episodes, which is fine but again, there is so much to write about…why revisit? Is it just to see todays version of an old story? JJ, Orci, and Kurtzman have the power to do what they want and they want to revisit old villains rather than dreaming up something new and wonderful!? Don’t get me wrong Khan 2011 would be interesting and I would be lying if I said that I am not curious but, you will have the budget to do what you want, don’t revisit what has already been done, do something fresh and new that will impact us like Khan did. Don’t just redo Khan. If it is a must then so be it, but there is an entire galaxy….an entire universe of ideas out there. I beg of you to make something fresh, and don’t say that since this is an alternate universe that redoing Khan would be fresh.
So far from the interview, there is no valid confirmation at to whether Khan will be in this one.
186. Data – July 5, 2009
NO KHAN, Origin of Borg Please
OMG what did the first Borg look like, was it one person with one ambition to make a perfect being, was it an accident involving many people? Oh wow Borg origin would be killer!
Even dealing with races that we only saw once would be great like the Gorn.
#197
They may just be talking about it just for the fans, but I really think it is being kicked around and discussed in seriousness also.
I want to say I trust these guys at the helm of our beloved franchise and will wait in eager anticipation for what they come up with.
Please : a new story !
The writers have pleinty of materials :
- a new cocky captain
- no real experience (contrary of Kirk One)
- he saved earth once and he thinks he’s got il
- same for the crew : young, sure of themselves and no real experience and space is unforgiven
Make him do is first BIG mistake! He is brash and impetuous… he’s got to make his first big error!
1 – A crisis in space
2 – Kirk is gambling his ship and crew (heeehawww! Let’s do it!)
3 – Bang ! It’s a trap (Kardassian ? they’re pretty clever !)
4- The ship, HIS ship, is almost completely destroyed
5 – Many deaths, the surviving crew members are prisonners
6- Kirk wants to go down with his ship, Spock savez him against his will
7- Prison, torture, evasion
8 -Kirk is becoming more mature, something has changed…
9 – He Takes back his ship …
10- Escaping narrowly
11- Kardassians in hot pursuit!
12- Enterprise Joining Federation task force
13 – Tete-a-tete Kardassians and the Federation task force
14 – Instead of firing all weapons, Kirk is proposing peace talks with the ennemy (although he has been tortured by the same Kardassians!)
15 – He’s playing a new role : mediator! bringer of peace… etc.
KHAN! YES!
maybe Khan is gonna be a smoke screen while the writers get busy working on something like the Borg or something entirly new
At first, when Khan was mentioned, my thought was Antonio Banderas -Yes!
But upon reconsideration… Let’s BOLDLY GO where no trek has gone before.
As much as I love Space Seed and TWOK, I agree with the others. it’s been done. They are classic as they are, and I’ve had enough of Hollywood remakes in genersal. Trek has had enough “Villian wants revenge on ___________” .
If they are still going to tie into the prime timeline, I’d rather they expand on some vague line that Kirk mentioned in the series, or throw in Kirk’s relationship with Carol Marcus as a subplot.
As for Khan, no matter how you twist it, he’s a bad guy and has to lose. Revamping him into a hero makes him uninteresting and lame.
There are already threads to pick up from this movie – Death of Amanda and Vulcan- Vulcan having the most serious repercussions on the universe. So let’s see something new.
I’d also like to see some of those more human scenes Kirk used to have with McCoy – “Why me? What’s the next move? Bones, What if I”m wrong?”
I always thought it gave him more dimension when he stripped away his bravado in private and we discovered he did doubt his actions sometimes.
BTW if Kirk never served on another ship… what about Finney? Perhaps he made Captain in this timeline.
Anyway, point being: Let’s have something new. Get together with D. C. Fontana for ideas.. she always had great contributions to the TREK universe
To those already cheering Bardem’s arrival as Khan, you might want to keep adding water to the cement and keep stirring so it doesn’t set too soon.
I still want the Gorn to be the bad guys.
the story would be original and new if in this timeline the enterprise isn’t the ship to pick up the botany bay. It would therefore not be a remake but a brand new scenario and possibly more dangerous and deadly first encounter.
The guy in the pic looks the part, let’s hope he can do the accent. It seems urban was the most accepted and loved actor of the last film because of his outstanding mimickry and homage to de kelley.
They have to develop the hate relationship with Kirk and the Klingons! Make Kang or Koloth the new villian.
Let’s try to put things in perspective: you’ve got these reporters asking Orci & Kurtzman about putting Khan in the next film, and who would play him, and so forth. So, of course, O & K have to say something. And there’s so much hullaballoo going on over the “no-Khan scenario” that it makes good PR, it gets everyone ranting and raving… and the script doesn’t even have FADE IN written yet. I, for one, can’t really imagine that O & K aren’t aware that the majority of people on this site made it pretty clear they do NOT want to see Khan (or some other obvious TOS elements) brought into the next film (what was the final result of that poll? I’m pretty sure the “new, original story” got the big vote, yes?).
That said, I suppose if we see Khan in the next film, we’re either gonna have to take it or leave it, since we can’t really control what they decide to write. I’m not saying I’d boycott the film, but they’re gonna have to really blow my mind if they want me to buy into Khan again.
As far as I’m concerned, Kirk’s Khan should not be turned into Batman’s Joker… I don’t care if Montalban, himself, comes back from the great beyond to do it. Enough is enough.
202. Dave… “BTW if Kirk never served on another ship… what about Finney? Perhaps he made Captain in this timeline.”
Or else he killed (kills) his crew because Kirk wasn’t (won’t be) there to correct his mistake.
I keep seeing comments about ‘no more revenge stories!’, yet everyone seems to forget that Space Seed was *not* about revenge. That only came 15 years later.
Why all this interest in Khan??
Chaka Khan hasn’t made a decent record in years!!
Besides, can she even act?
I wonder how many of those opposed to Khan in the sequel were the same fanboys who demanded that Venom be in that wretched waste of film and talent, Spider-man 3?
Let’s remember;
The “fans” didn’t want a new Kirk and Spock!
The “fans” didn’t want J.J. Abrams to direct!
The “fans” didn’t want the Enterprise to change!
The “fans” didn’t want a change in the timeline!
They were all wrong!
The money the new Trek has made is all the proof Alex and Bob need that following your instincts will deliver a great story!
If it was up to the “fans”, Star Trek would still be in moth balls!
Don’t listen to the “fans”… do what you guys want!
The rest of us trust you.
#208 Good point Thorny!
Having Khan in the new film will be a box-office liability. When the mainstream audience hears about it, they will think they are missing out on a key element that the fans know all about, feel this film is not for them and stay at home.
#213
Or, even worse, a lot of the young fans will remember catching “snippets” of TWOK on T.V. when growing up and, being suitably UNimpressed, they will instinctively think, “NAH! I didn’t like the look of that!”
“Rebooting familiar elements appeals instantly to fans and attracts the attention of “the media-sphere,” as he calls it.”
That is normally true, but I think in the case of a new Khan at least, the clear majority of Star Trek fans are against it. The poll at trekmovie was clear in this regard.
I personally hope for something completely new or if they want to use already known races or characters, I hope they choose something else. I would prefer for example a Gorn story, perhaps even with the Gorn of the old TOS episode. The Gorn would look cool with modern special effects.
211. thenewK2 – July 5, 2009
” The “fans” didn’t want a new Kirk and Spock!
The “fans” didn’t want J.J. Abrams to direct!
The “fans” didn’t want the Enterprise to change!
The “fans” didn’t want a change in the timeline! ”
—————————————————————————
You are totally incorrect. It was a small group of cynical, conservative, canonistas who objected to the new film. The vast majority of ST fans welcomed the new film, both before and after release. This same majority is now against having another Khan film. So far, their instincts have been right on target.
Concerning Box Office, the good news is that Trek is the third biggest movie of the year. It may be out of the top ten for daily box office, but it is in the books as a solid performer. It’s brought in a 100% return on the production budget, and if the rumors are true about 100 mil for promotion then it stil has been very profitable.
Here’s a couple of squestion for Anthony or maybe Mr. Orci or anyone else who may know: do they include DVD sales as “box office”?
Also, is DVD production and marketing built into the production and marketing budgets, or is it something seperate? I ask because I have always been curious as to whether the success of DVD sales is a consideration of whether there will be a sequel.
The Klingons wake Khan and his crew up.
Khan takes control of the Klingon ship and a amasses a huge armada on his way back to Earth.
The rest writes itself.
If I was Orci or Kurtzman, here’s what I would do:
Read this talkbalk, read the poll… and then do exactly the opposite. Seriously, Orci/Kurtzman should just go with their gut feeling instead of listening to a bunch of fanboys. Once again, people are threatening to not see the movie if they don’t get their way. Sound familiar?
I don’t think that Khan automatically = not original story. It doesn’t have to be WOK or Space Seed. It can be something original that just happens to have Khan in it. Heck, you could also have Klingons in it, the Borg, Harry Mudd, or {insert favorite villain or space anomaly}.
I personally don’t mind if Khan is in the next movie or not, but there’s a part of me that would like to see a different take on him if the writers decide to have him in the movie.
putting khan in the new movie is RETARDED.
I can’t say I like this idea at all.
Make Khan a character in the movie, fine. Make the movie be Kirk vs. Khan – no, please no.
Do something different, just like you did in the new film
DO NOT WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on, you guys. Don’t rape Khan.
Here’s an idea: As a result of Nero destroying 47 Klingon ships during his escape from Rura Penthe the klingons mount an attack on the Romluan empire. Fighting spills over into Federation space and kirk and crew is sent with a fleet of ships to show us what this “peacekeeping aramada” is made of. Lots of potential for action, diplomacy and also a chance to insert a bunch of characters from TOS.
boborci & Alex & Damon
As you can see, the fans have spoken. No Khan, please. :)
Khan was great. it’s been done in the TOS series, and in the movie series.
i like khan as much as the next person, but it’s been done!
NO MORE KHAN! PLEASE! NO MORE KHAN
NO MORE KHAN! PLEASE! NO MORE KHAN
NO MORE KHAN! PLEASE! NO MORE KHAN
NO MORE KHAN! PLEASE! NO MORE KHAN
219, you are part of that bunch of fanboys, too. So they should not listen to you either.
SHOW A FLASH BACK TO HOW IN THE HECK THEY GOT THE ENTERPRISE OFF THE GROUND AND INTO ORBIT TO THE STARBASE ! ! ! ! ! ! !,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
(and oh yeah,,,no more khan)
That dude was really creepy in No Country for Old Men. If I saw him walking down the sidewalk, I’d turn around and run away!
Like I wrote here once before, the only way you bring back Kahn is if you totally change the backstory due to the altered timeline. Have him found 10-20 years before the event of the last movie. This time Kirk meets Kahn when he is already the lord over his kingdom, with a whole armada and planet at his disposal. Kahn seeks his revenge on Earth for being cast off into space.
You can’t make it a personal story between Kirk and Kahn. It’s been done before.
That being said, I prefer an original story with a new nemesis.
Or how about this (if you must do Kahn): Some shadowy force is at work causing the events of the second movie. Then at the end of the movie, we found out that it has been Kahn pulling all of the strings. Which sets things up for a possible third movie.
To Bob Orci and Kurtzman:
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE — NO KHAN!!!!
C’mon guys! You are talented writers! I KNOW you can come up with something original that will do well at the box office!
I challenge you to come up with the next great Trek menace! Don’t you guys want to put your OWN stamp on Star Trek? I’d like to see what kind of cool ideas YOU GUYS have.
Wouldn’t you like to come up with the next Borg or your own thing to Trek that will become part of pop culture?
Please, no Khan…it would make you guys look lazy and unoriginal.
You can do better.
in reference to #228, how did they get the ship into orbit. i’d sure like to see that. a flash back to hoisting that heavy thing into space would be something to see. they for got about that scene i guess.
I know there’s this temptation to make the next movie another Summer blowout with bigger space battles, more starships, and lots more action but I’d like to see something along the lines of THE DARK KNIGHT. Not in terms of the movies darkness or themes, but in its structure and depth.
THE DARK KNIGHT, while with a considerable amount of exciting action, had a tight story that engaged its characters and dealt with the consequences of their actions. In a lot of ways, it was a quiet crime drama despite the big explosions.
Imagine a STAR TREK movie with the ship in the far reaches of space, alone, exploring some strange new world without back-up from Starfleet. An adversary battles the Enterprise at every step, much like the Phantom in MASTER AND COMMANDER, while the crew tries to unlock the mystery of this planet. Kirk makes a mistake, and now he has to deal with the consequences. He is challenged as a new starship commander in a way he never imagined. He pays a hefty price, much like Bruce does in TDK, but in the end it cements his role as a starship captain.
Moreover, I’d like Uhura to demonstrate her linguistic skills instead of us being TOLD about it. I was thrilled that finally Uhura was the female lead and romantic interest for one of the lead men, but she didn’t get to do much but be what Trek women sometimes tend to be — emotional support and eye candy for the men. “Available sexuality” as Herb Solow coined it. Now that she’s the female lead, and rightfully so, let’s see her do her job and do it well. No stupid Klingon dictionaries here.
Oh, and no Khan. No need to retread that character so soon after resetting the universe.
@ 223 What is it with Star Trek fans and the idea that this is somehow an acceptable metaphor for ”Don’t do something I would personally dislike within the fundamentally unimportant framework of an entertainment property”?? Grow the hell up and think about what words mean before you use them.
Next Movie: Tholians or the ISC as the Villain please :D
hey ya!! how in the heck do they get the ship off the ground? did i miss something in the movie? i saw it twice, and don’t remember of any mention of how they got a ship that most likely weighs tons and tons up into space.
please.
no Kahn
no big baddie.
no saving the world.
Instead….High concept (rewatch All Good Things to see what I mean – that should have been TNG’s first film).
Just my two cents.
227 – I don’t lump myself in the fanboy group (I’ll be able to sleep well at night no matter what decision they make, unlike some people here), but you are right. They shouldn’t listen to me either. They should only listen to their gut instincts, which was my original point.
Once again, I don’t see how having Khan in the movie automatically means “Space Seed”. I don’t want to see a remake of Space Seed either, but if they find an original story that includes Khan, I don’t see the problem.
@235 Maybe they built it on the world’s biggest ever transporter pad?
@216
I did not have a problem with new actors playing Kirk and Spock. When rumors of Adrian Brody as Spock and Matt Damon as Kirk were floating about, I thought that new actors playing Kirk and Spock could work with the right people (and right story and right direction).
I did not have a problem with JJ Abrams directing a new Star Trek movie. I re-watched the LOST pilot and was impressed with the direction. (Then I rewatched is Mission Impossible film and was not impressed.)
I did not have a problem with the Enterprise being redesigned. Did I want it redesigned? Not particularly; though I knew the looked would have to be updated and modernized. I do not, however, like the design that was selected. Gabe Kroener’s work would have been preferred.
I don’t inherently have a problem with a change in the timeline, alternate timeline, etc. I do, however, think it was a cheap, unimaginative cop-out. The writers wanted certain things to happen (work in Leonard Nimoy, have the crew be together at the end of the film, etc.) and boxed themselves into a corner over it. Their solution–alternate timeline!
I’m with the “No Kahn” crowd. Save him for when the writers are out of original ideas.
@111
The writers and producers of the new film may have earned your trust, but not mine.
238 i never thought of that, but (world’s largest transporter pad). even so, i’d like to see a flash back to see it,,,even though they should’ve put it in the movie,,but too late now.
Based on the knowledge gleaned from his mind-meld with Spock Prime, something nags at Kirk. As the ENTERPRISE comes across the BOTANY BAY, he orders a full photon torpedo strike. End of story.
Okay, instead, he puts a tractor beam on it and tows it to a nearby starbase and they deal with it.
yeah, how did they get the ship up in to space?
One the one hand, I’d prefer an original villain for the sequel (or no villain at all).
On the other hand, Javier Bardem? Yes please! He’s like Nightmare Fuel on legs.
Cearly we must compromise and have Bardem as an original villain. There. Everybody’s happy.
why do people here think that if we revisit Khan, we can’t have an original story? I mean, space seed can happen a TOTALLY different way. We can have a backstory to Khan in the eugenics wars to open the movie with. – then cut to the 23rd century to the enterprise and they find the botany bay. This movie could be fantastic.
I’ve said this before, but one of the things that made “First Contact” so good was the fact that the battle was about regaining control of the enterprise from a strong, strange villain. – not about ship vs. ship. We’ve seen enough of that. I would love to see some hand to hand combat, hiding all over the ship, trying to regain control. Since the Enterprise is freakin stupid large in this new universe, we could get to see a lot of the new ship.
All I’m saying is, let’s keep an open mind to Khan. I trust that these guys can make a terrific story with such a iconic character.
Cearly = Clearly
You guys started a new universe. Make a original story or make a screen play from one of the TOS paperbacks or hard cover books. Something we never seen. NO KAHN!!!!!
NO KHAN!
HOW DID THE SHIP GET IN SPACE?
NO KHAN!
UGLY SHIP ANYWAY
NO KHAN!
Hey I called Bardim last month. But he to get on the juice like all these other action stars. No Khan until at least Star Trek III. As I said it would be cool to see the Botony Bay adrift in some patch of uncharted or forgotton space into the end credits of the next film
Please guys, just put the next movie at the start of the five yeart mission, and show an adventure we never saw portrayed onscreen. There’s plenty of time that was never documented between the old episodes.
If you want to revisit some element, just open the movie with the end of the episode, beefed up, and move to the new story. To show enough to suggest that the old events are happening as we remember them, no need to redo them completely. just bookend with them.
can anyone tell me how the ship got into space?
252. Towed to the nearest space elevator?
Sat on a po-go stick, the next merchandising tie-in due out from CBS consumer products?
I think it’s the writers intent that it lifted off of its own accord. Able to withstand the stress. I’m an old git and would’ve liked the traditional old drydock. Seems bizarre they would do it that way in ENT’s era and later in TMP, but dropped the whole built in Earth orbit just because Nero ballsed up the timeline…
I’m perfectly happy to see Khan in a sequel, but maybe wait until the third film. Introduce the Botany Bay at the very end of the second film and leave it with the people who find it about to board the ship!
I’m starting to wonder if the “no kahn” brigade is all the same person.
Surely there aren’t THAT many Star Trek fans who can’t spell the name of one of Star Trek’s key villains. It’s written on all your DVDs for goodness sake!
Khan? Again? Really?
“Star Trek XII: Boldly Going Where They Already Went Twice”
Lame.
No Khan!
A thought.
Why would I want to watch a new star trek Kahn? If this is a new star trek, Shouldn’t I watch nomething new and fresh?
One of my biggest “happies” in this movie was watching Spock through the window of the Jellyfish taking off. I don’t talk about the fight afterwards, simply the image of him, in a new, never seen before, alienlike spaceship taking off in front of Kirk. For the first time, Spock, in its best years, is doing something in his style, but brand new and spectacular.
Today’s technologie allows for a super scifi-action story like Star Trek has never had before, and it is Kirk, Spock and Bones who will turn it into star trek whatever it could have been withoput them.
And that doesn’t need at all to spend any time at all revisiting the past if not only for giving this new future a bit of the depth which we know it has.
So, I’d rather go see a new thing, spectacular, clever, funny and exciting, with new characters and themes to explore and defeat, with the Enterprise and its crew turning it into Star trek, than watch a rematch which we’ve seen twice already.
Every filmmaker who has made a Star Trek movie since Generations has said that the movie was a brand new approach because it had a real powerfull viliain like Kahn, make it be Soran, The borg queen, Salieri (he, he) or Picard 2.0. Making one with Kahn now is perpetuating the failures of everyone else.
New, shiny, exciting, surprising visual, filosophical and emotional situations. Kirk Spock and Bones facing the unknown and making it better and happier.
That is what I want to see.
So, if we have Kirk fighting Khan in Engineering, does that mean we FINALLY get our beloved TOS-type of Engineering deck? Or an excuse to build it versus the “pipe maze from Hell” in the last movie?
Seriously, I want to see Engineering in its TOS-era design, not pipes everywhere.
About Khan:
Everyone should realize: Regardless of whether Orci and Kurtzman go with the Khan storyline, it is energizing ppl to discuss the topic!!
We NEED an ongoing discussion, not for the sake of satisfying old time fans like myself, but getting a sampling of what excites everyone. I think Orci and Kurtzman are well aware of this.
Frankly, I’d like to see the S.S. Botany Bay intercepted by the Klingons. They’re revived on a Klingon colony/outpost which is building a new superweapon, given the past arrival/threat of the Narada — and anticipation of possible future threats…
The Klingons have NO clue what they’re dealing with. After all, Khan and Co. look human. Instead, Khan overpowers the colony, seizes control of the new weapon and considers reclaiming Earth… or presuming that the Klingons are more advanced than his homeworld and needing to be conquered first. His ignorance of humanity’s advancement (and alliances with others) is one of his major weaknesses.
The Federation has a choice between interceding or following the Prime Directive. And we get the nearest starship, the Enterprise, assigned to the task.
After Khan is defeated, he and his followers are banished to Ceti Alpha. And we get a flash forward to a survey mission that crash lands there, unaware of the dangerous beings who want to escape. And among the crash survivors is a beautiful woman named Marla McGivers…
Btw, I want to see Tellarites and Andorians in the next film, please.
Oh and nearly everyone who is spelling it “Kahn” seems to be posting under a new name I’ve never seen on here before, which makes me think its definitely the same person under multiple pseudonyms.
NO!!!!!!!!!! KHAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
EVEN THE SPACE SHUTTLE NEEDS ASSIST OF HUGE ROCKETS TO LIFT OFF, AND THAT”S VERY TINY COMPARED TO THE ENTERPRISE
NO!!!!!!!!! KHAN!!!!!!!!!!!
EVEN THE SMALL INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION HAD TO BE BUILT IN ORBIT!
NO!!!!!!!!!!!! KHAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I LIKE KHAN,,,,,,,BUT IT”S BENN DONE TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!,,,,,,,,NO KHAN!!
REFIT THE ENTERPRISE,,,,,,,,IT NEEDS IT
REFIT THE ENTERPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO KHAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think the general mood here is not against Khan himself, but against yet another “Khan’s revenge” or “Wrath of Khan” story.
A villain bent on revenge who needs to be put down as a rabid dog is not the story we want to see once again – and we’ve just seen it in ST-11 anyway.
And with all due respect, the villain’s part in the movie sucked, while the movie overall was great, I loved the movie, saw it 3 times and that’s not the end.
What makes many folks here queasy is the idea of the same old STORY being fed to us, and “Khan” and “Wrath” became quite inseparable. If Khan can be used differently in the fresh new story – why not.
But still I dont’ understand why, why bother. They have brilliant setup for future conflicts – what with Romulans who still need saving and who had nothing to do with Nero – wouldn’t they be the perfect ambiguous not-enemies/not-friends, sympathetic yet fiercely independent foils, a la Balance of Terror and Enterprise Incident?
And what of the fallout of destruction of Vulcan? Spock Prime mission of Unification – how would it unfold now, would he try still, to redress his failure?
What I mean, there are so many things started in ST-11 movie which are so worth exploring, which newly hooked audience wants to be explored – why would we want to drop those threads and shove the moth-eaten old villain down new, young audience throats?
I just think it’s not smart. New audience, new fans were hooked up on this new movie, on this new timeline. They’d want to see it unfold, see this new hot cast in action dealing with things established in ST-11.
TWOK is fanboy’s fare, not mainstream anymore, not now in 2009. Not a way to entice this new audience to come back for more – just to confuse them.
Nope, still don’t get this Khan fixation…
REFIT THE ENTERPRISE
Poor Ricardo. His Khan should never be rehashed. Some things should remain sacred. It’s fun to speculate but when the decisions are made I’d hope for something more… original. CREATIVITY, may it live long and prosper.
R E F I T !!!!!!!!!
T H E !!!!!!!!!!!!
E N T E R P I S E !!!!!!!!!!!!
213-
Makes a good point:
Adding Khan would be adding something straight out of trek history. WOK is popular…among people who like star trek. That generation of kids the studio is so worried about alienating MAY have no idea who Khan is and skip the film thinking they need info coming in.
I thought that’s what they were trying to avoid.
And: Why another Latino actor to play an Indian role played by a Latino actor…if you haven’t seen Space Seed in a while you may forget Khan is a Sikh. I don’t think they ever mention that in the movie.
I have said it before and I will say it again…
NO KHAN.
ORIGINAL STORY.
How many times do I have to say it?
NO KHAN! But if they make a totally original story WITH Khan, I’d be cool with that. That could work.
NO
KHAN
PLEASE
REFIT THE ENTERPRISE
even in TOS, the ENTERPRISE was refitted
(man that ship is ugly)
I think it would be cool, if they did choose to go with a Khan story, for the movie to start out in the 1990s, so we can actually see what Khan was like when the genetic superman ruled the planet. Kinda like the USS Kelvin scene. Then after the opening title cut back to the enterprise discovering the botany bay frozen in space, and since it’s new timeline they can add more to the story so we don’t actually know everything that happens next…
ST 09 just went down to A- on BoxOfficeMojo :( Oh well.
Hey after Khan they can do the Whale story next. Oh wait they have to do Search for Spock before that after all we need to see Spock die again. It seems O&K are really ST movie fans & not TOS fans, just hear them gush on the ST 4 commentary about how much they love ST 2-4.
259 TOS Rocks
Your idea has already been done (by ST:Enterprise). A shipload of genetically enhanced humans wiped the decks with a Klingon crew and stole their ship. In fact, the reason that Klingons of TOS era look like humans is that they were experimenting with using enhanced human DNA to improve their own species and things got out of hand.
You need to do a little more canon study ;-)
Well, I would actually prefer an original story and if Irci and Kurtzman aren’t capable of that then find someone else to write the movie.
Now, if they just HAVE to go with Khan because it’s the safe bet, then why not go with an actor of Indian descent as the character was written. There are any number of Bollywood actors who could pull this off. Or if they want someone more well know, Lost’s Naveen Andrews would be perfect for the role.
Forget Khan! Let’s see an update of “Spock’s Brain,” with Penélope Cruz as Kara and Kate Hudson as Luma!
Matthew McConaughey could play the talking Morg.
BRING BACK KHAN!
LOVE THE IDEA OF BARDEM!
This guy would be perfect for the part. My opinion is that if Kahn will be in the next movie, this story has to be all it’s own, not subjected to comparison. With good writing, maybe this could work but it’s got to be done in such a way that the movie won’t be tagged as a cheap re-do from TOS or WOK.
We dont want a rehash of Khan
Khan is sacred and should not be redone by inferior writers
sorry but I want something original
I am also pissed off that Transformers 2 made more money than Trek
Obviously explosions sell over character development.
Its sickening
279. captain_neill – July 5, 2009
“Khan is sacred and should not be redone by inferior writers”
Ouch! I think Bob and Alex should absolutely do Khan in the sequel based on this comment alone.
It’s funny that captain neill doesn’t want Khan done by “inferior writers”, but wants an original story from the same “inferior writers”…?
Khan is fictional… not sacred. You’ve confused fantasy with religion.
Bob, Alex… Do Khan! The “fans” know nothing!
New story, new story new story!
Classic groups in a brand new setting… like the first movie! If they try to redo the Wrath of Khan its just too likely that its gonna crash and burn.
Someone please explain to me why everyone is going nuts about casting Bardem.
It seems more like trying to cast Montalban, then casting the character Khan.
Ricardo Montalban is the son of Spanish émigrés. Bardem is Spanish.
Coincidence?
I don’t necessarily think they have to cast someone of Indian decent, though that would be appropriate and kind of nice. But given the number of actors out there, why just instantly run to Bardem. I’ve heard NO other suggestions so far.
The train of thought just seems a little odd, and i think it should be examined.
Hey, is Closettrekker on vacation or sick or something?
Should we all start calling hospitals?
Well whether the next movie will feature Kahn or not, one thing is certain. I do believe that one way or another, the events of the next movie should further serve to solidify and underscore the friendship shared by Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. This friendship is the hidden magic that I believe has taken Star Trek so far over the years. I say keep it going!
216 cugel the clever
You are totally incorrect. It was a small group of cynical, conservative, canonistas who objected to the new film. The vast majority of ST fans welcomed the new film, both before and after release. This same majority is now against having another Khan film. So far, their instincts have been right on target.
No I’m not. I’ve been reading this site since it started. This majority of supporters you speak of must have been virtually silent, then, because, at every turn, on every bit of info that came out since the announcement of a new film the majority of the people on this site whined and complained every damn chance they had.
I heard the word, canon, so many times, I could puke!
The day may come when a bunch of fanboys can create major motion pictures by whining and complaining on every single message/comment page across the web, but that day hasn’t arrived yet. And when it does, movies will REALLY suck. Then you’ll have nothing and no one to blame but yourselves.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, until any one of you actually gets a job writing movie scripts, your opinions are meaningless. If you’re all so bright, how come you’re not taking in checks from two of the biggest blockbusters of the summer of 2009, and instead are bitching about what the two guys who are taking in those checks should do?
Hopefully, Star Trek will further rise out of the reach of the uncool with the sequel starring Khan…Khan… that’s right, I said Khan, because it gets your Star Trek underoos in a bind when I say it. Star Trek 2: The Return of Khan starring Javier Bardem. Hahahahahahahahahahahah!
207. P Technobabble – July 5, 2009
“Let’s try to put things in perspective: you’ve got these reporters asking Orci & Kurtzman about putting Khan in the next film, and who would play him, and so forth. So, of course, O & K have to say something. And there’s so much hullaballoo going on over the “no-Khan scenario” that it makes good PR, it gets everyone ranting and raving… and the script doesn’t even have FADE IN written yet.”
True indeed. When asked about it, saying “no comment” is boring. However, we have read all the posts and appreciate the opinions. All are noted.
@ 286…. YES !
217. Mr. “There are always possibilities” – July 5, 2009
“Here’s a couple of squestion for Anthony or maybe Mr. Orci or anyone else who may know: do they include DVD sales as “box office”?”
No, it’s not considered part of “box office” but it is weighed in terms of profitability and it is an important part of the studios calculations going forward.
Bardem is a very fine actor who looks like Montalban. Even in the new timeline Khan has to look like Montalban, because he’s already been born looking like that.
I like the ‘mobile’ ethnicity suggested by the implicit conflict of Khan’s name, appearance and background-as-described onscreen. I think that’s part of the fun of the character.
It suggests a future (okay, 1996 is now technically the past) in which identity is even more fluid than it is now. Which is interesting – and makes sense. Just my two cents.
I think this ST : Alternate Reality needs to establish the Klingons. Even if its not for the full movie & It should be Klingon Empire vs. Federation & not this feud with Kirk like in TOS movies. Please have the same evil cunning Klingon’s like in TOS instead of these TNG cavemen barbarians that never would have made it into space to begin with. And yes keep the pronounced ridges like in ST:TMP.
Orci,
It would be possible to just have Khan as a subplot, an extra complication to deal with in the middle of another dilemma, without creating a jumble…right?
Dark knight found a way to have two face and Joker without creating a mess, yet Spider man 3 couldn’t handle more than one problem.
Especially in TNG, there always seemed to be plot A.) and plot B.) and they usually ran into each other by the end.
@291
I got a better idea…get Ron Moore to come up with an awesome Klingon premise
292. SpocksinnerConflict – July 5, 2009
Yup. The last thing we would do is a remake.
No Khan Do!
Don’t cast Montalban, cast Khan!
Okay, Okay. I added my comment at 295 before I read all the animosity toward the idea of bringing back K. N. Singh. I was just trying to be cutesy.
I gotta admit that while it would be cool to revisit the U.S.S. Botany Bay and crew, it’s a big universe with a lot of room for adventurous stories.
I would love to see the “Wagon Train to the Stars” angle with the Enterprise escorting the Vulcan refugees to their new home whereupon they get involved in an exciting “A” story…fill in the blank…cosmic calamity, alien menace, they have to get a second job at a space pizza delivery service…whatever works.
Bob and Alex, you have clearly demonstrated your writing credentials and are surrounded with a very talented team with a clear respect for the original material, so I have the utmost faith in whatever the Supreme Court comes up with.
Thank you for saving the franchise.
Doing Khan is risky but could really be amazing if done right. There’s no reason it has to have any reference to Space Seed or the other Star Trek 2 – Khan’s entire backstory would have to be rewritten anyway to be more in line with our own history, so it would be different right from the get go. It’ll annoy some purists, and throw more fuel on the “this is an alternate universe, not an altered timeline” stuff, but it would just be stupid to have Khan leave Earth in the late 90s! Maybe you could tie it in with World War III’s established continuity?
Khan maybe, Bardem no… do we really need another Latino to play a Sikh? With all of Bollywood at our disposal and the demand for internationalizing Trek, Khan should be cast from the Indian population.
Screw this best actor for the job crap. It would just be insulting to the character and to Montalban [as if his Spanish background was somehow crucial to the performance.] Montalban himself was an activist among Mexicans for this kind of casting.
I think they should stilll find the best actor for the job. I just don’t understand why there is only one name floating around. And that one name happens to be a Latin one.
The one intriguing element for me about doing Khan would be rehabilitating the character. He has more nobility in “Space Seed” and as wonderful as The Wrath of Khan is, I was always disappointed by Khan’s reduction to a standard melodramatic madman. Unfortunately I’m not sure the new high-octane Trek universe will bear a villain with more shading–or dare I say it, an antihero. Khan to me had far more interest as a potentially dangerous ally for Kirk than as a hellbent villain. I think we can rest assured that you’re not just going to see a “bottle show” with Khan taking over the Enterprise from the Botany Bay from this team. At any rate, I do agree that it is likely TOO EARLY to do Khan–there is room for more set-up of the Trek universe in the sequel.
Well, I’m not eager for a Khan redux, but if you’re going to, Bardem is the way to go.
I’m still hoping for an original story along the lines of “Errand of Mercy” and “A Private Little War” (you know, Prime Directive complications with Klingons thrown into the mix).
Bardem’s perfect for the role. Unbelievably perfect. If they’re doing Khan, spot-on.
But pleaaaaase don’t do Khan. No offense, guys.
Oh, and #23: If you feel that everyone who disagrees with you is just a “fanboy,” just because they disagree with you, that’s usually a very good sign that you are a fanboy of the worst kind.
Oh, and boborci: glad to see you on the thread, as always. You da man.
The story of Khan on Earth could almost make a great 21st century TV series in itself. Throw in Gary Seven, as I believe was done in a novel, or his people as the protagonist, and it would make some compelling viewing.
The 21st century certainly has enough major regime changes so far to provide a good background for it.
Just Imagine the ‘Botany Bay’ when Khan wakes up with Obama, Medvedev, al-Maliki, Ahmajinedad, Merkel, Brown and Sarkozy (and his wife) among his followers….
Or don’t.
#304 AJ: The last presidential election was all just another front in the Eugenics Wars!
*It all makes sense now!*
Not really, but John McCain as an Augment is a terrific image.
The problem with Khan is teh back story of the 1992 Eugenics War. In 1967, that was obviouly a future event. Now its in the past. The war would have to be re-imagined even though that part of the timeline wasn’t altered.
And of course, Spock prime could just say, don’t revive them or don’t resettle them on Ceti Alpha V
Please NO KHAN! It’s the easy way out! Lazy… If you use Khan again why not just remake every episode whilst you’re at it?!?
Come on the NEW crew are on place nicely – give them/us a NEW adventure.
PLEASE.
Bob, if you are reading, I’ve been swinging pretty hard for an Indian actor in the role of Khan. I don’t buy any nonsense about Bardem being the “only” guy who could do it right. Pine made a perfect Kirk, and who really had heard of him before?
Although Bardem is a great actor and a recognizable name, he might also be uninterested in the role.
The most obvious reason I’m pushing for an Indian actor is because although Montalban did do a great job, he always looked and sounded Hispanic, and having someone who looks and sounds Hispanic play an Indian is like a fly in the credibility soup (unless of course you incorporate an explanation for that in the script); however well the acting is, there would be a question about why he looks and sounds like Bardem does.
So if you go the Khan route, and I’m with you guys whatever you decide to do, would you guys consider having an Indian actor in that role, possibly a Bollywood star like Aamir Khan, or possibly write Khan as an older character who presents a more cerebral threat so you can cast someone like Amitabh?
306: “The problem with Khan is teh back story of the 1992 Eugenics War. In 1967, that was obviouly a future event. Now its in the past. The war would have to be re-imagined even though that part of the timeline wasn’t altered.”
Actually, Tom, after giving consideration to RD’s comments in another thread, I think it actually makes more sense to regard the the universe of Trek 2009 as an alternate universe completely, and not the past of the Prime universe at all. When Nero and Spock went through the black hole, it actually makes more sense to think that they came out in the present of an alternate universe that resembles the past of the Trek Prime universe rather than actually coming out in the past of the Trek Prime universe, and if that is the case, the alternate universe they went into need not be a universe where Eugenics Wars happened in the 1990’s at all, so the Khan story can be written any way at all.
Who knows? Maybe the alternate universe of Trek 2009 is OUR universe, and TOS universe—heavens to mergatroid—was an alternate universe all along!
“I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, until any one of you actually gets a job writing movie scripts, your opinions are meaningless.”
Sorry, that’s just silly. Artists create and the rest of us judge whether we like it or not. That’s how it works.
#249,#261,#262,#266,#270
Chris how about this?
http://tinyurl.com/pxpmdj
Anthony,
I thought you might like this…
http://tinyurl.com/p4yojl
:)
No to Khan. Meyer did it and did it brilliantly. Move on. I think there are many villains from TOS who would make compelling characters today but I also agree witht the school of thought which asks “why do we NEED a villain”? I think the writers should be able to come up with something brand new while tying in some good ol’ TOS elements to make the hardcore fans happy.
Sure would like to see them write something new. But if you’re dead set on retreading, what about “Where No Man Has Gone Before.” Good, not totally black hat villian.
Bardem would brilliant.
And Meyer didn’t do Khan “brilliantly.” Gene Coon and Carey Wilbur did – Bennett and Meyer elaborated cleverly on their work without dumbing it down *too* much.
Why don’t we bring in Q to the sequel? After all, only he can restore the timeline! Or can he?
315 DB
Always nice to see some love for the Coon!
I still say recasting Lt McIvors (retaining the proper “atttributes”, naturally) as Khan’s love interest is box office gold. Didn’t anybody notice her in Space Seed but me? Am I THAT old?
Oh GOD I AM STEAL FEARING THEY ARE GONNA TO THIS.
STAR TREK II: The Warth Of Khan
STAR TREK XII : Khans Wrath????
I think they should leave Khan alone and move on to other things. Beside’s with this New Alternate time line (whatever) Who says the enterprise even finds the Botany Bay.
Anyway How about a mirror universe movie? That’s something I’d love to see…
Don’t know how I feel about Khan, but keep in mind:
Khan is to Kirk what the Joker is to Batman
Not saying you need to make the Dark Knight for Star Trek (1)2. However, if the Universe/God/Destiny says that Kirk must meet Spock, then shouldn’t it also say Kirk must meet Khan?
Frankly, I trust these guys to do a good job. I’m along for the ride at this point
What is the mission of the Enterprise? To boldly go where no one has gone before. Khan is my favorite of all the Star Trek villans. But that doesn’t mean he needs to be redone. There are plenty of other TOS villans to choose from. From the Romulans, there is Keras (Balance Of Terror) and Charvenak (The Enterprise Incident). For the Klingons, there is Kor (Errand Of Mercy) and Koloth (The Trouble With Tribbles) and Arne Darvin (The Trouble With Tribbles). What about The Orion Syndicate? The Gorn? Or, from Star Fleet Command, The Lyrans and the Hydrans.
Whit this being in a new time line, there are new possibilities. The Cardassians. The Bajorans. The Ferengi. The Xindi. Or, even better, the Q. How would this new Kirk react to Q?
Add in a couple of characters fron Enterprise like Dr. Phlox and T’Pol. Surely, they’re still alive in the mid-23rd Century.
Here’s a good idea: Don’t make the movie revolve around certain characters. The Final Fronteir revolved around Kirk and Spock. Generations revolved around Kirk, Picard, and Data. First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis revolved around Picard and Data. This new Star Trek film revolved around Kirk and Spock. See a pattern?
Here’s an idea I have been toying around with myself: What if the Federation had to deal with the mofia? Does the Mofia still exist in the 23rd century? One of the greatest trillogies of out time is The Godfather trillogy. That would be a great element to Star Trek. And may even bring in a much larger fan base. The Orion Syndicate is just a criminal organization. The Godfather is a way of life. Personally, I would like to see something like that. And it creates a wholly original Star Trek story line while leaving its integrity intact without recreating and vandalizing existing villans, like Khan, Kruge, Koloth, Kor, ect.
Explore new fronteirs. Not old ones.
@313: I also agree witht the school of thought which asks “why do we NEED a villain”?
Because it isn’t until # 18 (The Graduate) on Box Office Mojo’s list of (adjusted) top 100 movies of all time…
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm
…that you get to a movie where bad guys, monsters, or villainy do not play a significant role.
Out of those 100 films, roughly 30 are not bad guy or monster films.
For whatever reason, the stark conflict between good and evil story resonates.
Who cares? The new movie made a mess out of everything Trek and still, people saw it many times. I am sure people will see the sequel regardless.
It is about marketing and cool looking actors.
We’ve worked this hard to reboot the franchise, to clean the slate, and we’re going to retell Khan?
Why?
I just don’t get it.
New story.
Please.
I’m sure the late Joseph Campbell has a good explanation for why that is, and that is probably a large reason for the success of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, which pattern I would actually like to see Star Trek emulate.
Even the James Bond reboot has moved away from movie episodes to a continuation of the story and conflicts that began in the previous movie.
I don’t want to see movie episodes like TV episodes where the characters never seemed to have cognizance of anything that happened to them in any of the previous episodes. That’s bizarre. It smothers the sense of reality of the thing.
# 232. Ryan T. Riddle
Agreed 100%.
But there are other good ideas here as well.
I trust BKD to do something interesting.
But Khan has to be a part of this new series. He is Kirk’s greatest foe and the murderer of Spock. The killer of Scotty’s nephew. The torturer of Chekov.
FATE (or the timeline correcting itself, or however they rationalize it) would definitely bring Khan into the picture as surely as it brought the crew together despite all the changes.
But let’s keep in the B story for this next one. I want to see how the Klingons, Romulans, and Vulcans respond to the events of this new film.
Bring on the “Klingon Bastards”!!!!!
322: “It is about marketing and cool looking actors.”
Don’t assume it has to be one or the other. Apart from the marketing and visual appearance of the actors (it is a movie, and movies are made of images), it was also a damned good story. My only complaint is that it moved too fast, and I hope they’ll consider releasing a FANCUT edition of the movie in DVD form that includes all the missing material they shot. I would like to see that feature as an additional feature, without replacing the theatrical version.
If they really want to do a Khan movie, I see do a movie totally set in Khan’s pre-Botany Bay life (similar to the The Eugenics Wars novels) – and as such it is a movie that fits into both timelines (and you don’t even need to say it’s Star TreK). A major drama with a little science fiction – that might bring in general audiences.
Javier Bardem would be a cool Khan, but again, unnecessary. There was some discussion elsewhere about the film Master and Commander. What was interesting about that movie was that it took an episodic approach. That might be an interesting format for the sequel. Khan could be a possibility in that context, but otherwise there are so many other things to write about.
Javier Bardem would be a wonderful choice. However, please…come on…no Khan. We need a good original plot for this next film. Maybe a few films down the road. I’d be interested in seeing a Khan movie eventually.
I, for one, was disappointed by the new movie. When did Star Trek movies stop being about big ideas? When did they stop being about what life could be like for the future of humanity? When did it all de-evolve into run-of-the-mill space opera? I don’t want space opera. The point of Star Trek was to portray a believable version of our future. To make you feel as if you’re actually there – as in THIS could be YOU, if you had been born a few hundred years from now. It was supposed to be a comment on the human race, and our potential. The new film was just a Star Wars ripoff. Very superficial. No big ideas. Even the much derided Star Trek: The Motion Picture was about something. Even the beloved action-packed Wrath of Khan, supposedly the inspiration for this film, was backed by incredibly profound ideas about mortality. This movie was all flash and bang. And furthermore, like Star Wars, it just wasn’t believable. It was opera. Grandiose explosions, grandiose scales, grandiose everything!
The next film needs to be about SOMETHING. It needs to be intelligent. It needs to be believable. It needs to make comparisons between our current culture and the future. It needs to be something more than one-dimensional villains and phaser fights. That’s another thing too – it seems that every Star Trek film has had the crutch of needing some Khan-like villain as the antagonist. It’s a tired formula, and it doesn’t really have much to do with Gene’s vision.
323: “We’ve worked this hard to reboot the franchise, to clean the slate, and we’re going to retell Khan?”
Just think of it as rebooting the Khan story too, just as the Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Uhura, Sulu, Checkov, and Scotty story was rebooted.
I mean if you don’t have a problem with rebooting the Kirk and Spock story, why would you have a problem with rebooting the Khan story?
Presumably we will get a story that we haven’t seen about Khan as exciting as the story we never saw about Kirk, Spock, etc.
If they are going to do Khan, I hope they do Khan in spectacular fashion: Make it an epic trilogy of movies involving Khan, with cliffhanger episodes, like The Empire Strikes Back, and a spectacular ending that is so good it leaves our jaws hanging.
OMG, Javier Bardem would be FANTASTIC for Khan, MUCH better than Antonio Banderas.
But please, let’s not do it. Something original for the new crew. (Yeah, I know Nero was original, but it’s too soon to go there.)
You want to do Khan in the third movie? I might be more interested then….
Let’s ban Khan !
I khan not agree more ! ;-)
How about “The Wrath of Sarah Palin?” Perhaps she was sent into space in 2009 with her family by the Republican Party after abandoning office to keep her from making any more public appearances.
Kirk could be irresistibly drawn to her, but she needs planets to rule, and then inexplicably abandon.
Then, when her oldest daughter seduces Kirk during a talk about ‘abstinence,’ Sarah’s wrath is unfurled when the daughter inexplicably becomes pregnant!
Nice to work in current events…
Javier Bardem = Never heard of him.
I’m 24 and can recite TWOK fairly accurately as it was a great story and taught a lot about life, death, consequences.. many things. Part of me is dying to see Khan on the big screen in my lifetime – so I can be there for when it happens. At the same time, I as the audience really don’t want a brand new Wrath of Khan either.
******************************************************************************
******************************************************************************
******************************************************************************
******************************************************************************
Khan would make a great villain to leave loose ends with. Open the movie with him for the first 5 minutes, right in the heat of battle, but then something mysterious overshadows him entirely. He would still be involved with the movie but only when he has the advantage when Kirk and the Enterprise are at their weakest. At the end, Khan is still left out there in space somewhere – doing what, in what condition, why – is a whole new story that could be told.
All I’m saying is just don’t let Khan take the scope of the next film. Give him a strong battle or two, but under the shadow of a great problem – the real threat of the movie.
That’s just my 2 cents.
Space, the final frontier…..
Space is full of unknowns, black holes, distant galaxies, etc. It should not be full of villians.
We just saw a “villain” ST movie, so move on to the next thing. I’d like to see Khan 2.0, but not this time.
original story please….
311. SPOCKBOY – July 5, 2009
That is actually an improvement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It isn’t so much mass media pressure, as knowledge that reporters will have an instant “hook” to write about if they reboot yet another character. J.J saw it work for the current film — sure, the film was nice light entertainment, but the tons of extra press it got was because it was so easy for reporters to write about the hook (the rebooting). That resulted in millions upon millions of dollars.
Does Paramount trust J.J. to come up with anything original? He’s done sequels and reboots (Mission Impossible and Trek), and he’s executive produced some familiar stories (Coverfield, Armageddon), but can he identify a good original idea? The only original idea he’s had so far is Lost (which is wonderful). Even his future projects like “Unnamed Earthquake Movie” are just rehashes. Paramount would be taking a big risk if they trust him to come up with something wholly new. Much safer to go with Khan.
I just KHAN’T stand it anymore
As much as I would love to see Khan on the big screen again. I think it would be a big mistake to have him in the next film. The reason this film was a hit was because it was original. If I had my way I would love a time travel movie. Have this crew meet up with the crew of the star trek tng. With a whole new cast of cause.
i know when i’m being KHANed
#289
Thanks, Mr. Orci! Congrats on two blockbuster films in one year! I wish you continued success!
This is Mr. Khan. I’ve been watching and listening all day to you all,,,and now i’m going home. i’m sure you’ll miss me.
goodnight
even a slight REFIT Enterprise
please?
How about Zach Galifianakis as the beloved antagonist Sybok…?
“For the love of God, Montresor,” NO … NEW … KHAN.
Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman, lend me your eyes and brains:
You re-created a beloved franchise in an all-new timeline with many all-new character back stories.
You created a “new” Enterprise.
You made the bold move of destroying the planet Vulcan, which has been central to Star Trek from the beginning.
You’ve established a “new” Star Trek, refining the “look and feel” of the original, while keeping its heart intact.
Please … don’t forsake your creativity by falling back on an OLD villain from the original Star Trek. That story has been told and ended. If you go back and “retell” that story, then, as far as I’m concerned, you forfeit the tremendous risk you took in “rebooting” the franchise.
We want to get to know these new Enterprise crew members, watch them interact, see them develop. If you throw in Khan, then you remove the focus on the crew. You take your eye off the ball. You replace the heart of Star Trek with a Jarvis artificial.
Don’t sabotage the work you’ve accomplished. Boldly take your franchise where the original never went before.
to boldly go where NO ONE has gone before…
Which part of that is hard to understand? ;)
No Khan please. For that matter: no villain please.
Come up with a story that doesn’t involve some sort of standoff between two characters for once.
#312
Spockboy, you should have photoshoped the back of Chris Pine’s head onto Shatner’s head.
Why not have Javier Bardem as an original villain? There is no need to retread old ground, especially Trek’s greatest. What these guys proved was that a new, original Trek story set in an alternate version of TOS’s universe is possible and they should continue that trend. Leave Khan to Space Seed and TWOK. No need to see him again. I have all I need to see in less than three hours of footage.
I can’t speak for anybody else, but I was spelling “Khan” wrong because it was late — and I know someone in real life who spells it the other way. Force of habit, sorry about that.
I don’t get hung up on spelling and grammar on Internet message boards, sorry that’s way too anal for me. People who pick other people apart on message boards for spelling mistakes need to find something more constructive to do with their time. Most boards don’t have spell check, and we rely on those crutches in everyday life as a part of the writing process.
If you are accusing me of being a multiple poster, you are mistaken. I’ve been posting here for over a year, just not very often lately.
#333
Nice touch. Inserting a bit of Democratic party bias into a discussion about the Star Trek and Khan …
#349 Pizza,
If you have a picture of the back of Pine’s head from that angle then hand it over, otherwise, send me a veggie with sun dried tomatoes, black olives and extra cheese.
: )
Damn it, now I’m hungry.
#286
Yea, I’ve been around this site since day one and don’t post a lot – mainly due to time constraints (and trying to follow the threads).
However, the secondary reason for not posting a lot is because everytime some one ask ‘Why” something is changed they get lambasted by as ‘fanboys’ or ‘canonistas’.
Now that is what can make someone puke.
How was your 4th of July? Take time to thank a veteran?
Regards.
317
“I still say recasting Lt McIvors (retaining the proper “atttributes”, naturally) as Khan’s love interest is box office gold. Didn’t anybody notice her in Space Seed but me? Am I THAT old?
Hey brother,…I always noticed her. I even tuned into…I think it was “Days of our Lives” near the end of her life when she was in a wheel chair. That’s how eye catching and memorable she was to me.
And I’ve yet to have anyone from this progressive minded, 21st century crowd address my confusion about finding the right Hispanic actor to take over Khan’s role when he wasn’t Hispanic.
Oh and again…don’t do it. Khan that is. You’ve gone a whole new direction with it; written over the tapes of what was. So what’s the point?
That shows a lack of originality and creativeness that everyone keeps patting you boys on the back for. I’m not one of those people by the way.
THIS IS WOULD THE BEST THING IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD…EVER, EVER
Cant do another time travel movie–I also agree that Orci Prime & Alex know what the heck they are doing-after all they are only the movies hottest writers right now-I trust them- just saw the trek movie again today with a friend and her daughter who have not seen it-they both loved it-that makes 7 times for me now-it is down to just 1 theatre in tacoma wa now-only playing once a day at 1220-the rest of the day its one of several movies for tranformers deaux–Anyway i do think the repercussions of Vulcan being destroyed will have to be dealt with and the klingons absolutely would declare war on romulus for the attack on rura penthe and the loss if 47 ships!-I agree with others who say both of these are pretty huge plot elements to deal with-someone else also mentioned to roberto all the story possibilites about the now nearly exstinct and displaced vulcans and he agreed-so what else can they add to the mix? Carry on mr orci-we cant wait and thanx again-I think trek fans care about their franchise more than other franchises–
Khan in the sequel?
Only if they have him put on a black leather jacket and ride his motorcyle over the shark tank.
NO KHAN!!!
There are 200 billion possibilities for stories in STAR TREK – the number of stars in our galaxy alone (give or take). This is STAR TREK! Go to one of them… find something totally dumbfouding and work the mojo to solve the problem. Show us The Kirk in action.
Ok so Khan can be redone properly. Bardem is a great choice since they have already used up the best actor for the job. This was the role for Faran Tahir (Capt Robau). This could still be an original story that would not detract from ST II or the original series since now a completely different outcome could be written.
360 posts and no one’s mentioned the glaring problem with the original “Khan” story — that his 1990s backstory with “eugenics wars” and “genetic supermen”, not to mention “sleeper starships” wasted on exiling convicted war criminals to deep space (!), never came to pass and would seem preposterous to audiences in the 2010s.
Sticking to the Khan story would only confuse mainstream/new audiences further, by adding an alternate near-history most of them lived through to the alternate prequel future timeline. Best to sort of sweep that unfortunate nonsense under the rug, 13 or more years after it was supposed to have happened…
Absolutely essential viewing if you loved Wrath of Khan.
http://tinyurl.com/r7l5ld
:)
I say they write two scripts, one script with Khan included geared toward Javier Bardem apprising the role. And another completely original script. That way, if they can’t get Javier, they’ve got a back-up plan. At this point, I wouldn’t want to see anyone but Bardem do Khan!
I recognize that I am not a frequent commentator on these boards, but I am an avid Star Trek fan–of the original “universe” and surprisingly, of the new movie!
As a writer (albeit amateur), I can appreciate the appeal of tackling Kahn, but in all honesty, I would never in a million years do it! I would rather do something original. Were I to remake any section of any TOS episode, I would probably start the movie out with some disaster, have Starfleet contact the Enterprise only to find that Kirk isn’t aboard–he’s on Cestus III (sp?) fighting the Gorn. I would write things that hinted at the wold, unbelievable adventures these people have, and I would definitely write new, original ones that are even more fantastic!
One of the reasons the TNG movies failed was because they were slightly bigger television episodes! Please don’t fall into the trap of remaking TOS adventures! This is your chance to make your mark and create villians and adventures we’ve never imagined, much less already seen in the 60’s.
Just my two cents.
No KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNN!!! please?
Now Paul Giamatti as Harry Mudd maybe… and Shatner in a comic relief cameo (after Pine and others get rapidly aged). But above all, lets have a new exciting adventure! It doesn’t necessarily need a super villian.
If the next story has to include a primary villain, I’m intrigued by a concept that was also voiced by someone else a few weeks back.
Instead of Khan, how about a “distinguished Starfleet Captain gone bad,” in a “Heart of Darkness” type of storyline. If Javier Bardem *could* even be cast in the sequel, his talent for “stoic mannerisms” might be much better suited for a role like that. I would deeply enjoy watching this younger, jump-started Kirk and crew face a battle of wits and courage, pitted against a seasoned foe. Better still if this adversary was someone who Kirk personally admired at one time. (Captain Garth, perhaps?) More sauce for the goose!
Even though these writers are hot in Hollywood, I now believe that they are not very good writers and I don’t have faith in them.
Nick Meyer, Ron Moore, Brannon Braga, DC Fonta, Michael Pillar are all better writers
My response about the writers is due to the awfulness of Transformers 2. Star Trek was a great, they got the characters right but it was a wafer thin plot
“What Does Garth Need With A Starship?”
Garth is very much the way to go. Anything you think you could do with revisiting Khan, *can* be done with Garth.
Plus, it ties in the Battle of Axanar and Klingons and Kirk…
I’ll take Bardem as Garth. That could work.
Give me Jim Carrey as Koloth, and Tom Hanks as Robert April, and everyone’s in the theater.
#369: “Give me Jim Carrey as Koloth, and Tom Hanks as Robert April, and everyone’s in the theater.”
Everyone’s in the theater if it’s 2005! I think these days you’d need to toss in Seth Rogen or somebody for the “slyly intelligent but unassuming slacker comedy” demographic.
I’m thinking Rogen as a re-imagined Richard Daystrom. But that’s probably too obvious.
No, no, no… the new villian in the next movie should be… let’s see here…
Mr. Atoz from All Our Yesterdays. You know, that little old man from the time-portal library… YEAH! He could be played by Don Rickles and the entire movie is just Kirk, Spock and McCoy trying to avoid getting pushed into the time-travel doorway! BLOCKBUSTER!!!! he-he
#369 “Give me Jim Carrey as Koloth, and Tom Hanks as Robert April, and everyone’s in the theater”
I’ve been thinking I’d like to see Ian McKellen as April: based upon the literary series, he is English (though McKellen is from the north, as am I); and April would be an older officer by the time Kirk is in command.
If you can’t improve on the original – whether it’s music, television, film, what have you – don’t go back to the well.
Why squander a once-in-a-generation opportunity to propel the franchise to new heights by becoming your own cover band? The entire point of the latest “Trek” was to make it fresh, new and vital again – and it succeeded brilliantly..
The worst possible thing to do now would be to follow it with warmed-over rehash. The “Trek” universe now has a completely blank slate; to build upon it, the stories must remain at least as fresh and new as the film that preceded it.
Besides, it’s going to be hard to do the J.J Abrams’ “This isn’t your father’s Star Trek” again, when in fact, it is.
I’m so excited about the unlimited possibilities for “Trek” again – just about the only thing that would spoil that is the white flag of creative surrender that would be fluttering in the breeze were the new powers that be to choose to shoehorn Khan into a universe where he has no backstory, no connection to Kirk… no nothing.
Basically, it’d be fanwank. And guess which audience that attracts? It’s time to build upon success and expand the audience, a la “The Dark Knight”, not shrink it again by design.
As an open-minded “Trek” fan for all my life, the last thing I want to see is watch it become it a cult show again – it deserves so much more than that. The best way to make a larger impact is to bring something new to the table – something they’ve never seen before.
Mr. Orci, Mr. Kurtzman, Khan’s been done and done brilliantly. Let it be. Make the universe your own once more.
NO KHAN!
I can’t think of a good Khan story. How the hell should the story become very different from the Khan introduction in our Prime Universe?
It won’t be interesting when u already know what happens.
Bring back KANG, KOR… instead
WITH KANG & CO AS VILLAINS YOU CAN CREATE AN ORGINAL STORY & BRING OLD ENEMIES BACK!!!!!!!!!
How about a storyline with Khan initiating Eugenics Wars 2; It wouldn’t be a revenge storyline, it wouldn’t be a remake of SS or WOK and it would certainly be “big” enough for a movie. What do you guys think?
Can I say that I never again want to see Klingons, Romulans, Starfleet or any past guest characters in Star Trek without being lynched?
I’d like to see Kirk, Spock, Bones and the gang on the Enterprise out in deep space on their own. Let’s see Chris Pine with that same firm authority Bill Shatner had especially in season one. This is Kirk: he doesn’t need a boss or a father figure or Starfleet Command to report to all the time.
Kirk’s in charge of the ship, his judgement trusted enough by Starfleet that the Enterprise can effectively operate on its own representing the Federation.
Let’s not see Earth or anything connected with the Federation and its foes for a good long time. New civilisations, new life forms in the vastness of space where no man has gone before ought to be the plan.
I think this alternative reality should leave Khan floating in space, never found. You cant mess with that classic story!
Khan’s real hatred of Kirk came from years of abandonment on a barren planet. Left to fester with his feeling of anger because his superior intellect took a beating by (in his mind) a normal person, all the time planning his revenge. And worse still because the years pass without Kirk even checking up on him or even realizing what has happen to the planet. It wouldn’t quite have the same impact in a story of them just meeting. As awesome as the original story “Space Seed” is, it really just sets the scene for the brilliant “Wrath of Khan”.
As much as I love all things Trek, I have to admit nothing in Star Trek has come close to being that good since. I wish people would stop trying to recreate it. Move on and do something new. They could make mention they came across an old sleeper ship SS Botany Bay which was in heavy decay. They think about boarding it but consider the ship unsafe and so they just blow it to bits. There ends Khans story in this reality!
I guess the reality is they can’t leave it alone as the characters name is too much of a money spinner. If they do have to mess with this classic then Javier Bardem would be a good choice for Khan, but I would leave it alone. No matter how good the effects are its never going to be as good as it was before.
Question: Orci: Who doesn’t like an original story?
Answer: thebiggfrogg: Hollywood.
And if you need proof can you say “T.J. Hooker” reboot. Gack! It wasn’t even good in its original form, but Hollywood needs a redo!
Q: What was the defining thing about the original (”Space Seed”) Khan?
A: His backstory (frozen super dictator from Earth’s past etc.)
Q: What would be the most difficult thing to handle if you remade his story now?
A: His backstory.
So: if the writers want to go back where others have gone before – throw the old character out (Montalban was so good, it would be hard to trump that anyway) and keep the CONCEPT.
Re-using story concepts, IMO, is ok, there aren’t that many of them anyway. “Romeo and Juliet” is nearly 500 years old (and the “Lovers from feuding families” concept is much older still), and not only was it remade countless times, when the plot was transplanted into different circumstances in a different time, we got another great play (and movie) out of it: “West Side Story”. (Yes, I know, there are more recent examples, but the movie was directed by Robert Wise, who also directed TMP, and one of the principal actors was Richard Beymer, who played Li Nalas in the “Circle”-trilogy in DS9, Season 2. Just trekking …)
I think the key to New Trek is that the new universe is similar to the Prime Universe, but DIFFERENT – and sometimes very much so.
So what would the Khan-concept be?
A charismatic near-superman and his followers come onto the Enterprise under seemingly harmless circumstances (e. g. rescued or as passengers). He certainly makes an impression on Kirk and the crew, even if they start to grow a bit wary of him, because he has a suspicious past and makes no secret of his future plans (e. g. to rule the galaxy/ Federation/ a certain planet).
He even manages to bring some of the crew over to his side, and together they take over the ship. The bridge crew tries to resist, of course, but at first they are beaten – one by one – easily. Only at the last moment they find a way to win, round up Bad Guy and his followers (including some from the crew) and ship them off to a planet/ jail/ whereever. Bad Guy takes this personally and promises Kirk revenge.
Good story, isn’t it? And it would make some of the developments most of us agree the Kirk character needs possible:
- he has to suffer and to experience defeat
- he has to learn to become both a team player and a leader (the officers could first try to go after the Villain alone or in small groups, trying to do what each of them does best: e. g. Uhura would try to get a emergency call out to Starfleet ; Scotty would try to sabotage the engines etc. But they should get caught or be unsuccessful, only working together they should find a way to win).
These are the similarities, so what about the differences? IMO, they should be in the back story and motivation of the Villain.
And that brings me to the Other Guy who hijacked the Enterprise (in TFF) – he shall not be named here, because I think “Sarek’s first wife was a Vulcan princess” is a prime example of absolutely superfluous and really stupid retconning.
But he was part of a splinter group of Vulcans who were cultivating their emotions and left (or were told to leave) Vulcan.
Now, those people would of course have survived the destruction of the planet – and the survivors in the new colony might think they need all the Vulcans they can get, now.
What if their leader (who I’ll call Sobyk) decided that the best course of action was to go to Romulus and blow it up NOW? Nero would never be born then; Vulcan never destroyed.
“An eye for an eye” can be a very tempting concept – maybe even for Spock, at least for a while, and for all those on the ship who lost friends or even family to Nero …
And this could be an easy way to bring in another character from the Prime timeline: Saavik. It was only stated in the novels that she was half-Romulan (meaning she was either the product of a rape OR one of her parents was a renegade/outcast from his or her respective culture). As stated above, even if Vulcans are a bit racist, now they would have to think differently about half-Vulcans.
Some say that she’s not born at the time of the movie, but
- we know she was young in TWOK, but what does “young” mean for Vulcans (T’Pol was 80 in “Enterprise”)
- if the Chekovs had a different family planning schedule in the new universe, why not Saavik’s family, too? These things don’t bother me at all, as long as it is a good story.
Finally, as I said before, take the Khan character, give him a new background (alien is better than human), and cast a Hispanic actor, an Indian, a Scandinavian if you must – as long it is the best man (or woman) for the job. Just paint him blue and be done with it! And maybe call him Khan for all I care …
I’m with 163. and 232.
Why does the current poll not have an option for “NO KHAN AT ALL!”, which has (repeatedly) been the message coming through on these boards? Hidden message perhaps that we are wasting our time fighting it?
Let’s see . . . NO KHAN! It has been done, and done well. Leave it be and do something original. Besides, unless this universe is significantly different from the Prime one, Prime Spock will spoil everything anyway.
“No, Captain, the Botany Bay is dangerous. Quarantine them all in a prison and don’t treat them as guests. And be sure to warn Starfleet of the Doomsday Machine. Here’s how to beat it . . . . Oh, and you’ll need to find a few spare whales sometime in the next 20 years.”
And so on. But NO KHAN!
I think, if they do go down the Khan route…. Nestor Carbonell! I think he’d do a great job without overshadowing Pine, Quinto et al… :-)
Ok so I have calmed down a bit from my post on 168, I still don’t want Khan but I have a few thoughts regarding the sequel and how to develop it from part one.
Vulcan is destroyed so the new evolution of Vulcan’s in this time frame will be different. Possibly Tuvok from Voyager is still around as a young boy who was off planet at the time.
WIll there be a vulcan who wishes to become Romulan in anger over the Vulcan’s destruction?
WIl the Klingons decide to battle everyone in space because of what Nero did?
Can Spock be comfortable in only being a Commander and Scientist?
Will Kirk be too naive in his methods of Space and battle, that lives are at risk?
a few ideas.
Any other TOS villain but Khan, please.
If you do Khan, there is only one man who can challenge Capt. Kirk’s power:
HERCULES
I mean Kevin Sorbo!
I’m in favor of an original story for the sequel, but I gotta say, Bardem would be absolutely flipping brilliant as Khan.
Enterprise encounters Botany Bay, Kirk takes sleeper ship to Talos IV, under Spock Prime’s suggestion. Khan thinks he’s back on Earth as ultimate ruler of his empire, Talosians are thrilled with the entertainment.
Remember:
NO KHAN!!!!
@330 “…(think of it as) rebooting Khan….if you don’t have a problem with rebooting Kirk and Spock…..why Khan?”
Because ST09 was a movie with a specific purpose – to no longer be hamstrung by the past, to restart the franchise yet retain a common base from which to start.
The Trek franchise was a beached whale, and Abrams was given the charter to either kill it once and for all, or bring it back in some commercially marketable and relevant form, and in a way that can be perpetuated. He did that by starting over, and in fact going to meticulous efforts to start over while retaining some element of the original creative framework of Star Trek. In that vein, and with that charter, rebooting got the job done. Trek is viable again. Mission accomplished. Now, going forward, we’re going to take a step *back* and revisit a *classic* genre (not just Trek) film?
What’s the point of going to that much effort if you’re just going to start rehashing TOS episodes? Didn’t most of TNG’s first season do that for us – and often in a galactically bad way? Are we alerady at a point where we are saying the concepts available within the Trek framework are exhausted, and our *only* choice (perhaps primarily from fear of failure if no other reason) is to retell old stories?
Can you imagine what the nitpickers and canonistas would do with a retelling of TWoK? There’d be frame-by-frame analysis, right down to the comparisons of the diameter of Khan’s pecs, of where the two stories met and/or diverged. There’d be outrage if Chris Pine didn’t scream “KHANNNNN….” for the proper number of microseconds….if he didn’t scowl properly….and what if Spock, again, kills himself to save the ship? Are we then saddled with a “necessary” remake of TSFS just to complete the story arc? Or, if you opt to tell an entirely *different* Khan story, the canonisas will march the streets “because it didn’t REALLY happen that way in the prime timeline!!!” Why on earth buy yourself that much hassle? If he didn’t already, it’d drive our friend and host Anthony to drink his weight in Romulan Ale.
And what on earth would have been done to perpetuate the notion that Trek gives us this great canvas of storytelling opportunities? Nothing. If anything, it would prove the franchise reboot to have been vacuous and the franchise still creatively bankrupt. I, for one, do not ascribe to that notion.
New stories. Please.
Most of my non-Trekkie friends can’t recall the plots of most Trek movies. Some of them remember “the one with the whales,” but almost all of them remember “KHAAAAAAN!!!!!!” In fact, since ST 09 has sparked interest in the franchise again, several of those non-Trekkie friends have asked me to refresh their memories on what Khan was all about. I showed a few of them Space Seed followed by TWOK, and they were totally engrossed by it.
Khan is a great character, and the mainstream audience would enjoy seeing him again.
William Shatner as Khan!!!
Just kidding. No Khan please. Take advantage of this opportunity to explore strange NEW worlds.
NO Khan!
i would love, though, to see them
USE ANOTHER EPISODE FROM TOS!
there are sooo many great episodes to choose from and integrate into a new plot
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!
BLOODSUCKER
SHAT?
Here’s my deal: Khan vs. Kirk vs. Klingons=Awesome
To add to my last post:
The next movie needs more female characters!
Rand and Chapel come to mind (even if I think it would be fun if McCoy yells “Nurse Chapel!” and Nurse CHRISTIAN Chapel steps into the picture … :) ).
There was a fan story which brought back Number One (the idea was great, the execution less so): Starfleet Command assigns an experienced First Officer to the Enterprise (Spock stays Science Officer) as Kirk’s “chaperone” (with the secret order to relieve the Boy Captain from command if he screws up!). In the story this was “Number One” from “The Cage”, but it hasn’t to be her, it could be a new character (and a good part for a guest star, male or female).
And, of course, Bring Back Gaila – as long as she isn’t reduced to chasing Keenser the little alien (he’s a Starfleet technician, not a “pet”!) through The Brewery. Chasing Simon Pegg is ok, though.
If they want to go the “Vulcan Khan” route or something similar, it would be good to have Alternate Saavik in the movie – either as one of the Vulcan renegades or as a new crew member (that Spock was the first Vulcan to graduate from the Academy doesn’t mean he’s the last, not even at this “early” time). If you give her the Vulcan/Romulan heritage that didn’t make it into the movies (only into the novelizations), you have an automatic inner conflict here. When she finds out the renegades want to destroy Romulus, they should help Kirk&Co in the end.
And Lt. McGivers, of course.
And if the plot of the next movie is “Enterprise stops Vulcan terrorists who want to destroy Romulus to undo the Vulcan genocide”(and who have a point somehow – if you can understand the reason for their actions, but not support them, it makes good drama) the third movie could tell the story how the Romulans get wind of this, decide that it is better to be safe than sorry and start (or want to start) war against the Federation!
I imagine that TREK 12 opens up with the final scene of Doomsday Machine…have Tom Hanks as Decker flying the shuttlecraft into the machine and dying and have Kirk take the Constellation in as in TOS episode…Spock ” Welcome aboard Captian” opening credits…maybe show some scenes of other missions from TOS that they have been on since the last movie….opening sequence on Kronos with Klingons discussing a search for the sleeper ship with the genetic superman…secrets they could possess…back to Starfleet having the same discussion…a race is on to find Khan first….great battle sequences between Starfleet and Klingons!!!…I guess you would have a different ending for Khan and company…..anyway…I think the movie should emcompass more than one episode or one enemy!!…we will see!!!
NO KHAN! Let it go!! Come up with something new!
#353 Spockboy
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1578666752/nm1517976
How about half a head?
:)
Khan steals Spock’s Brain. That’s it!
No Khan. I already have that movie. New ideas please.
opening scene/New Vulcan:Prime Spock learns a fleet of Romulans ships are headed toward New Vulcan.They are not a attack force but refugees from Romulan civil war.
# 400 Khan steals Spock’s Brain
Of course not – Sylar does it!
If they do Khan in the sequel, I would love to see some of Khan’s backstory in the movie. The time while he was a tyrant on Earth, with power over millions. It would certainly add more depth to the character.
# 400 Khan steals Spock’s Brain
Or, how about Danny Trejo (as the Klingon Machete) steals Spock’s Brain!
:)
No Kahn. SOMETHING ORGINAL!
No Spock too. These new guys need to show thye can hold thier own w/out Spock.
Hopefully this has been said by now by someone, but if it hasnt let me say it loud and clear….
#8, Capt Picard was supposed to be from France, yet he was played by a British actor…a very fine actor at that. You can throw it up as it being the future and borders have expanded, etc, etc OR you can take the logical approach and say that the actor made the character. So I dont think you have to actually go with an Indian actor if you decided to rehash Khan in the new movie. That being said, Bardem is an awesome actor but I either want the Klingons that were supposed to be in XI to be seen OR bring in something new. Either way, I know this team will have us all in the theater praising them again. Cant wait to watch it all unfold right here. (p.s. keep up the good work Anthony)
Ugh. Original story and characters please. There is nothing new or meaningful that can come from rehashing Kahn.
An original story? What a novel concept! Why start now, though? They couldn’t even be original enough to develop their own crew – instead they just recast the original. Booooring.
Sorry for my orrible English….
But.. what if the Klingons find Khan and the Botany Bay and Khan becomes despotic ruler of Klingon Empire?
Then he tries to invade the rest of the galaxy, but Kirk & Co. stop him :)
Then Kirk talks of peace and a new future and etc in perfect Trek-Obama style :PPPPPPP
Although Star Trek is out of the top 10, it should still finish the weekend by crossing the $250M domestic and $375M global marks (if not by Sunday, then by Monday).
Wow. Trek is DONE at the box office. Stick a fork in it. While it will likely just barely cross $250M domestically today, it’s got at least another weekend to go before it crosses $375 worldwide, especially sine the US is earning most of the numbers.
I’m really disappointed. The way it was burning through the Summer, I was sure it would make it to $400M. With the way the numbers are falling off (Down 51% this weekend), It may not make it.
Looks like TMP will keep its place as the highest grossing, biggest selling, largest profit earner in the franchise.
411
If you want to play numbers game, perhaps you should give Star Trek 2009 the same time to gross at the box office, 2 months vs TMPs years since release lol, and TMP was not well received, compared to the reviews of Star Trek 2009.
As your love for TMP, you should be tied down to watch TMP for all of eternity.
Before Inflation, Star Trek 2009 ranks #50 all time.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic.htm
no Kahn. Please dear god no. He was great, and Montalban was great doing him. Don’t spoil it. Besides that story has already been told.
390: “Can you imagine what the nitpickers and canonistas would do with a retelling of TWoK?”
Who said anything about retelling TWOK? The opportunity that Bob and Alex gave themselves with the reboot was to COMPLETELY reimagine the story of Khan; not rehashing what you’ve seen, but showing you something you haven’t seen at all.
Star Trek is only as solid as it’s last movie, so if the next one bombs, the future will immediately be in jeopardy again. Khan is a recognizable name that will lead to box office, not detract from it.
Whatever happened to, you know, boldly going where no man has gone before?
And let’s take TWOK off the pedestal please. The performances made that film, because the production design sucked. Khan sported a mullet. The costuming of Khan and his people was atrocious. And it looks like they recycled the Klingon bridge from TMP for use as the Enterprise’s torpedo bay, and just painted it white.
I would like to see Trek movies where all aspects of production are equally fine. Star Trek 2009 is the first time that has happened for this franchise. I want to see it continue.
Javier Bardem looks more like Malachi Throne than Ricardo Montalban
415: Whatever happened to, you know, boldly going where no man has gone before?
In Hollywood? That’d be like finding a four leaf clover.
I am still continually amazed at the logic surround the “Khan VS. No Khan” controversy. I read “No, NO MORE Khan, we WANT FRESH stories,” and if this wasn’t enough to convince you, in the same breath, famous last words say: “We want fresh stories, bring back KANG or KOR!”
What’s the difference? Both are old story-lines from TOS! What makes one better and the other not? Surely, great writers like Orci and Kurtzman can excel in writing an excellent story for either of those story arcs, right?
Right! I for one will try to “expand” my focus which appeals to a WIDER audience like the one ST:XI appealed to, which garnered such interest from non-fans, that it revived the franchise. To narrow the focus with hypocritical demands from an individual viewpoint of WHAT and WHO should be in the next movie, not only excludes potential non-fans but also weakens the viability of the “freshly rebooted” and very successful franchise.
Let’s keep STAR TREK in the limelight by APPEALING to a wider audience, and remember, “The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the FEW or the ONE!” I would rather have a new film which appeals to a wide audience that can follow the story-arc than one that is so narrow which only a few understand or care about. C’mon people, let’s get with the program and stay on the same page!
Be LOGICAL about it and be “gracious” with your remarks as to not make the rest of us rational “STAR TREK FANS” look bad with all of the negative and somewhat ignorant comments from “naysaying whiners who object to any opinion which is different from their own.”
I DARE YOU TO DO BETTER (To closed-minded fans who WANT what they want without for a second think of other person’s wishes.)
It’s (STAR TREK) a two-way street, you know.
I wonder how they plan to use a character so thoroughly understood.
If Khan was frozen in time, he dates from before the canon was affected by the events of the last film (my understanding from Orci’s comments on this forum was that that was the only point of divergence). That means that Khan’s essential nature and character are fixed and the audience already knows what his strengths and his fatal flaws should be. With such a well understood character, then you draw a line forward through a new series of events.
1. Will you not know initially that it is Khan?
2. Would they break your preconscieved notion of Khan?
Revisitation of such a classic villain will rely upon one #2 for sure and maybe #1 as well.
And look here. I started out arguing against Khan, and now I’m pretty much for it if they can do it right.
And Bob and Alex: You guys should write and shoot more stuff than will make it into the final film, and then include that stuff in a “fan-cut” edition of the movie for DVD release. Not a director’s cut, but a FAN’S cut, that would include more extensive character development or other important scenes that might slow down a theatrical release but which fans would love to see….say, 20 more minutes of material that would NOT be available in the Special Features of the theatrical release DVD.
From a marketing perspective, you guys can then issue the theatrical release both for sale and as a rental, but issue the fan cut ONLY as a special edition disk NOT available on Netflix, Vudu, iTunes, or in Blockbuster.
Which Star Trek fan will NOT buy that DVD?
Many do want an original story, but what could it be?
Hmmm… The TNG Federation had a lot more member races than the TOS Federation. What if the Enterprise is instrumental in some world becoming a member?
Maybe Betazed? Or Trill? With the Trills, there is the additional bonus that Jadzia Dax implied in “Trials and Tribbleations” that one of the former hosts, Emony (a trained gymnast!) at some point had an affair, relationship, whatever, with McCoy! “Spots all the way down”, anyone? Emony and McCoy could, say, solve a murder mystery together, which would make a nice B-plot for the movie. This would have the fan-teasing side effect that the Captain doesn’t Get the Girl – again (honestly, Kirk would have other things on his mind right now).
The A-plot then? Either the ship is called to the planet to help with overcoming/ preventing a natural (or cosmic) disaster – then it turns out the Klingons (or the Romulans) have actually triggered it/ are somehow meddling with it, because they want the planet themselves. (Because, let’s be realistic, we need a reason for some space battles, ’splosions and brawls).
Or maybe it is some diplomatic summit, and there is also a Klingon konspiracy going on (Boborci & Co. could borrow some cues from “Journey to Babel” without copying it).
Of course, one of the races who were only “wallpaper” in the later series or a totally new species could also be used (even if I’m growing fonder of McCoy/Emony Dax every minute …).
420: “f Khan was frozen in time, he dates from before the canon was affected by the events of the last film (my understanding from Orci’s comments on this forum was that that was the only point of divergence).”
But Orci also said the reason Kirk destroyed the Narada was so that Nero didn’t come out somewhere else, able to do more damage, because his ship was built to withstand travel through black holes…BUT, that can’t be true because Kirk offers Nero and his people refuge aboard the Enterprise because Kirk states clearly that he thinks Nero’s ship will not survive the trip through the black hole—and yet Kirk blasted it to bits anyway.
The more I think about it the less sense this movie makes as a time travel story, and the more sense it makes as an alternate universe story.
Not only that, but in another 40 years, when the franchise is rebooted again, the alternate universe trick is a good way to get away with doing anything you want, so maybe this sets a good precedent for the future alternate universes of Trek.
Just think: if one thing happened differently, in Khan’s life, it could affect things (story-arc,) in a major way.
A genetic flaw? A personal conflict before launch? Radiation during a long voyage? Dust in the sleeping chamber? A shorted circuit? An error of a fraction of a degree in the navigational system? Anything!
That “anything” could be the deciding factor, while the character is basically who he or she is. The variables at play could exponentially affect an entire story-arc in a positive way OR in a negative way.
I think we are looking at the bigger idea of having a Khan film, when focus should be directed to possibilities small changes or difference could bring to the story. Khan is a VERY VIABLE character even with “slight changes” in personality or temperment. These could manifest in HUGE differences than what we witnessed in “Space Seed,” or “The Wrath of Khan.”
“Lieutenant, you have your transceiver set on WIDE FIELD! Narrow it down to DECK LEVEL!”
REFIT THE ENTERPRISE
NO KHAN DO
@414 “Who said anything about retelling TWOK? The opportunity that Bob and Alex gave themselves with the reboot was to COMPLETELY reimagine the story of Khan; not rehashing what you’ve seen, but showing you something you haven’t seen at all.”
Then why stop at rehashing an existing TOS character, and take that “opportunity” you describe to tell a completely NEW story with, shock of shocks, a COMPLETELY NEW CHARACTER.
Why is Khan suddenly so integral to Trek’s cinematic future in so many minds here?? We’ve just REBOOTED THE FREAKING FRANCHISE, so we could clean the slate. So the first thing we’re doing is dragging out a TOS character? LETS MOVE ON!!!!
I’m COMPLETELY open to “something I haven’t seen at all,” which is why we need to leave Khan *out* of the next movie. I *have* seen him. Don’t need a “different take” on him. I think Orci and Kurtzman are more than capable of producing something *truly* new!!
Please let them!
@ #423
I actually see ST:XI as both time and alternative universe travel. Properties of red matter is not fully understood from my perspective, although it probably is explained in detail in some form or fashion, much like the concept of anti-matter and matter are.
Hindsight could be used for exposition much like it was with proto-matter and the Genesis Device. The black hole might not have damaged Nero’s ship but the volley of a phaser attack just might have been the “kicker” and Kirk’s offer of refuge IMHO was a hollow one…knowing by instinct that Nero would refuse.
What propelled Spock Prime in time and universe is probably relative to the odd properties of red matter. I am sure there is a written explanation of this fact somewhere, but from just viewing the movie by itself, and not reading the novel or comic, is what I came away with. There also could be an “unknown” side-effect of red matter which is yet to be realized or conceived. The more it is debated, the more interesting it becomes. It’s a mystery and one which the path is set to solve.
You know, if I were Orci and Kurtzman, I would write a new Khan film which has a fresh approach combined with NEW FRESH STORY ARCS that will knock your socks off and dish out vast dishes of CROW for all to eat which have all decided an itemized veto of what and what not to include in STAR TREK.
The point is moot, debate is over, the next film will be a great film full of EVERYTHING that STAR TREK represents. That means, what STAR TREK IS, WAS, COULD, SHOULD, or MIGHT be.
Stop haggling for pennies when you have a million-dollars in your pocket. Let the guys do their work, STAR TREK is LARGER than any one person’s wants or desires. I really don’t see the point of arguing. The debate is already won and ALL of STAR TREK is open to write IN or OUT.
I suggest everyone adopt a less personal attachment to the past and open your eyes to the future. It’s really pointless to argue over details which might not exist in this “new universe.” So the best course of action is one which uncovers the “unknown” and then, to understand it.
A little soon to be jumping the shark, isn’t it?
423-
I also wasn’t impressed by the way the time travel was handled in the film, but I think they just didn’t want to spend screen time on it. I think the one scene where they’re debating on the Enterprise bridge the possibility of time travel wasn’t very good.
My comment was about Orci’s responses in the Q&A. From those it seems he sees a single point of divergence and believes that his story is consistent with that.
Re Khan vs. no Khan, my suspicion is they want to drum up excitement more than make that decision so early (assuming it is still early in scripting).
I think the character development will feed the script much more easily than trying to come up with high concept or the villain’s.
Essentially it is Kirk and Spock’s arcs that will be interesting over the next 2+ films and give them continuity and meaning the same way that II, III, and IV did. Khan in II wasn’t more than a plot device. It was Kirk’s journey.
In TOS, Pike and Kirk are both presented as war weary, but duty-bound veterans who manage their suffering under the burden of command. They’ve given up chances for a normal life with romance, they’ve been scarred by continuous conflict and bloodshed and by the reality that you are sending people to die. They’ve also learned diplomacy and a realism about it’s impact on how you do your job. Kirk has to make the journey to that point in whatever # of films they plan to make with this cast.
Spock has to evolve to be Nimoy’s character or decide to break from that path. He either renounces love and romance for a monastic walk or he gives in. Or he gives in and it has tremendous consequences. There are any numbers of stories here. Vulcan’s intrinsic nature was one of strong passions, violence and it was through their embrace of the philosophy that they rely on to suppress that inner nature. Real romance (in a human context) has tremendous ups and downs, emotions of strong passion, possessiveness, jealousy, and hurt act themselves out. Is Spock adequately in control of himself to have this or will he (and Uhura) in time realize that he must walk a monastic life.
I think it easy (almost algorithmic) to define a set of events that each of these two must experience, tests they fail or pass over 2+ films to take them where they must go. Then they can look at who the villians can be in each of these tests to make each film work and see what other stories this can create.
I think that’s the easy way for them to write #2, #3.
The hard way is saying “Okay we’ve got Bardem as Khan. Is he still still frozen when our heros arrive? Does he rule a country? What haircut do we give him?”
LOL jumping the shark? Nah, not really, if you don’t swim in the ocean or shark-filled aquariums! I will keep a neutral approach and accept it for what it is. It’s saner that way. Things change, media is spurious at best…much like the appetite of media consumers. Blame it on the “paradigm shift” in modern media. I study it, debate it, and am possibly influenced by it, but not blinded by it. It simply exists.
@ #430
tman, that scares the hell out of me…lol. It might be cold and calculating to think of the main characters in ST:XI as parts which sum up a whole. That seems to be a very clinical approach that lacks imagination and creativity. While it might work to “cookie-cut” for a very wide audience, it will dilute and diminish Star Trek to a new low. I realize that major media and studios tailor media to the user, and if this trend holds, a “spoon-fed” and “immature” end-user will result whom in the end, will realize the giant hole and lack of originality and fill the gap with their own ideas and demands. This spells DOOM for the major media companies who only see financial results in a short period of time and are complacent enough to only produce generic sub-standard products.
I DARE YOU TO DO BETTER!
355 Andy…
“Hey brother,…I always noticed her. I even tuned into…I think it was “Days of our Lives” near the end of her life when she was in a wheel chair. That’s how eye catching and memorable she was to me.
And I’ve yet to have anyone from this progressive minded, 21st century crowd address my confusion about finding the right Hispanic actor to take over Khan’s role when he wasn’t Hispanic. ”
You were kind enough to respond to me, so I’ll address your confusion, since no one else has!
Well, as Spock might say, you procede from a false assumption. “I” am not a progressively-minded 21st century type. You might even call me a (gasp) conservative! I even cringed when Nimoy ended the new movie with the INCORRECT verbiage “..to boldly go where no ONE has gone before.” AAAUUUUGH! It is no “MAN”!.
I always thought it was odd that Khan was Mexican, but I am also not interested in having Khan in the sequel. If he were, and he was played by a Spaniard, I wouldn’t really care. But you make a good point. I think the practical problem is that there isn’t a well known box office star from that part of the world. No one, certainly, with big name recognition in the U. S.
Mexican? Spanish? Indian?
Hey, I don’t care if Khan is played by KHAN HIMSELF, please, no more rehash!
426: “Then why stop at rehashing an existing TOS character, and take that “opportunity” you describe to tell a completely NEW story with, shock of shocks, a COMPLETELY NEW CHARACTER.”
And the same question applies to rebooting anything at all, including Star Trek itself. Do we really need a third incarnation of DUNE when a first incarnation of Ringworld has never been done?
Nope.
But it’s fun to see these new stories, and probably the biggest reason to do Khan is because Khan is a recognizable name and a great villain that will create box office. Name recognition is one of the biggest reasons you actually do see so much old stuff being remade. The people who own these old properties and who put up the money think it’s less risky.
But risk aside, yes, as I am thinking about how to do Khan in my own head, I can see fantastic possibilities, I can even see a 3 movie trilogy involving Khan, with the first two episodes being cliffhangers. I can see Khan being done now far better than it was ever done in the past.
So however Bob and Alex take it, I have confidence in them that they’ll do a good job, if for no other reason than to avoid having to come in here and answer a million questions.
@ #433
My God man, use the keyboard, not the spell-checker!
To point out a difference between a “Spaniard and Mexican,” is much like comparing “Romulans to Vulcans.” They are from two different geographical locations. Spain and Mexico. To understand the difference between a “liberal” and “conservative,” is pointless. There is no difference due to overbearances of the need for labels which serve to include a few and exclude many. Labels belong on shelves of shops to be scanned and categorized by properties and attributes. Human beings are so much more than that.
And to think the successful correction of striking “MAN,” which is exclusive, and replacing it with “ONE,” which is inclusive is something to be criticized! To the converse, it speaks volumes about the philosophy and level of maturity of a species.
Make-up or other processes can make ANY actor appear a certain way no matter what race or creed in which they belong. That point is irrelevant, but quality of an actor and level of performance surely is relevant indeed.
I hope this clears up any misconception which might exist. These differences might seem insignificant to some, but to others are very important. The task of “getting it right,” becomes necessary and also avoids being offensive.
430: “Re Khan vs. no Khan, my suspicion is they want to drum up excitement more than make that decision so early (assuming it is still early in scripting).”
I think they said they are off for the rest of July and will start writing hard on the sequel after that.
What I found interesting about Orci’s comment was how he weighed the advantages of each. He had specific reasons for doing Khan: Bardem opposite Pine and Quinto, exciting the fans, AND attracting the movie going public, which I read as to mean the non-fan public, which is a huge consideration when you want your movie to be a hit.
But on the other hand the only reason he gave was “who doesn’t love an original story?” Which is rather vague.
So on one of his hands he counts off several specific reasons why doing Khan would be good, and on his other hand he has one pinky in support of a vague reason why doing something else would be good.
So reading between the lines it seems to me they are thinking more towards Khan, than not.
With the Khan story there are problems: This is 2009 and there were no Eugenics Wars during the 90’s, no Khan Noonian Singh in control of Asia, and no Botany Bay type spacecraft even today.
So to build on and try to follow that TOS history would raise smirks. Of course, it could be considered that TOS belongs to an alternate universe from ours, and in that universe there were Eugenics wars in the 90’s.
Using the alternate universe logic, Orci and Kurtzman can get out of the problem this way:
If Spock Prime were a part of the sequel story, then being made aware that the circumstances under which Khan were found were different than what he recalls happened in his time (for example, if Khan was not a refugee from 1990’s Eugenics wars), and inferring also that no disruptions to the timeline should show up before the point where Nero interferes, then the obvious difference in the facts surrounding Khan means that he (Spock) didn’t travel into the past of his universe, but went sideways into the present of an alternate universe.
Spock wouldn’t know this until he saw some difference in things that should NOT have been affected. At that point he would realize that he was mistaken about where he had ended up: In an alternate universe, and not the past at all. So Spock would realize after seeing this new Khan that he had miscalculated about what had really happened in the first movie.
In this way, Orci and Kurtzman can be truly free to rewrite anything. Fortunately, there is nothing in Trek ‘09 that compels a time travel vs. a alternate universe interpretation. Bob and Alex can change their minds and write it as an alternate universe story anytime they want.
@ #437
Spock Prime does “not know” is a fascinating story-arc which builds drama if exposition is handled CAREFULLY and strategically! I like that idea. The Eugenics War is a slight inconvenience which could be replaced with another event — it also could be modified to carry additional subtext which can be revealed now.
I like this approach. I always assumed that Spock Prime “KNEW” he was in another universe, but now I am not so sure. Maybe the shock of witnessing and experiencing the destruction of Vulcan impaired his emotional framework to an unknown or unrealized level?
I like that very much, it is logical to approach it from that angle. I am hesitant to base the story too much on earlier TOS stories but I feel confident that a foundation based on ST:XI and possibly beginning with TWOK could be viable for a non-fan audience.
I like that idea! Great thinking!!!
436: “Make-up or other processes can make ANY actor appear a certain way no matter what race or creed in which they belong.”
Sure, but why would you WANT to dress up a Camaro to play a Corvette?
“but quality of an actor and level of performance surely is relevant indeed.”
But you can’t assume that you just can’t find an Indian actor to play Khan as good or better even than a HIspanic actor.
And why have all the names given been Hispanic actors??? Bardem? Banderas? Valderama?
Because Ricardo Montalban played Khan, that’s why, and HE was Hispanic, which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense when you are looking for who to play THIS Khan.
So, you put another Hispanic actor with a thick Spanish accent in the role of an Indian, and it will always seem inauthentic. It will be like seeing the strings hold up the flying cars in Blade Runner. Sure you can ignore it, but that is an imposition on the good will of the viewer that really isn’t their job to do.
Whatever they do regarding the actors, I’ll live with it. I can see the reasoning for Bardem, because he’s a big name talent now who would have some draw, but he may be hard to get for this role. In that case, I certainly wouldn’t want to see Banderas or Valderama.
436
What the hell are you on about? Breathe through you nose. Montalban was Mexican. Bardem is a Spaniard. Nothing more here than that.
Unless we remember Steve Martin!
“So this couple came up to me after the show and said, “Hey, are you bi?” And I thought to myself, “Well, I speak a little Spanish, but not really enough to be bi…” But I didn’t want to look stupid, so I said, “Sure, I’m bi.” And they said, “Great, so we’re having some S&M people over, after the show why don’t you come on over?” So, I thought, “Great, Spaniards and Mexicans! That’ll be fun to go over there and speak a little Spanish… ”
Lighten up!
And I could not give less of a hoot about the “maturation of the species”. The beloved original show had “no man”. The crappy version of the 80s had the inoffensively offensive “no one”. I like the original version. And am offended by those who go through life attempting to be inoffensive. But I don’t want to come off as defensive.
Take a letter to my attorneys! Hungadunga, Hungadunga, Hungadunga Hungadunga, and McCormack. Now then, in re yours of the fifteenth, yours to hand and made to rep, brackets, that we have gone over the ground carefully and we seem to believe, i.e., to wit, e.g., in lieu, that, uh, despite all our precautionary measures which have been involved, uh, we seem to believe that it is hardly necessary for us to proceed unless we, uh, receive an ipso facto that is not negligible at this moment, quotes, unquotes and quotes. Uh. Hoping this finds you, I beg to remain…as of June 9, cordially yours. Regards.
The producers of TOS were able to create a new story with new characters and events over 20 times a year for 3 years. TNG and its affiliated shows had writers who did the same thing in spades over a span of 25 seasons.
I hope that this next film can do it ONCE. Do something new that embodies the Trek philosophy and takes the characters down uncharted territory. For heaven’s sake, it isn’t “where many others have gone before” for a reason!
433. Who said they have to say that the Eugenics wars occurred in the 90’s? They could very easily describe Khan as a tyrant from Earth’s past who controlled such and such land and eventually exiled himself in space without mentioning a year. It’s a lawyerly way of circumventing a specific part of canon while still being true to canon, but it’s much more efficient than introducing some convoluted subplot about Old Spock and alternate timelines which isn’t necessary and likely confusing for the uninitiated.
438: “I like that idea! Great thinking!!!.”
Thanks. Now if you’d tell Bob and Alex I’m available, and I work for pistachios and the love of Star Trek.
432 @ 430 “that seems to be a very clinical approach that lacks imagination and creativity”
No, it doesn’t. This kind of analytical planning and outlining the plot is actually a very necessary part of the craft of writing, especially for theatre/movies. A lot of creativity and imagination is needed to it right. As soon as this “skeleton” of a story is in place, you’re free to play around and flesh it out with scenes, dialogue etc. (But every writer has his or her own method to do this).
And re: 436 @ 433 (”man” vs. “one”)
You said what is to say here
Still, @ 433
Aren’t you a bit slow on the uptake here? That change was made in 1987 with TNG!
Sometimes I think SOME folks on this thread are full of crap..lol! Some have some sense but some of you OTHER folks seem to be jibbering about crap for the sake of showing the world you can! It is maddening trying to sort out the “flotsam and jetsam” from the really serious Star Trek folks.
Just in case you haven’t noticed, I am considering myself to belong to the latter group! If it quacks, it’s a duck in my book. I call it like I see it and if that offends you, I don’t know what to tell you other than get over it. And please if you want to critique a post of mine, please read posts written which come before the one you respond to, it makes a difference especially if one post is based upon another post’s content and context.
GEEZ!
@ #445
Are you myopic? I suspect you need clarification. The post you refer to was a response made from a previous post by #433. I am fully aware of TNG changing “Man” to “One.”
Obviously you neglected to research your argument or you would have noticed that in #433’s statement which said:
QUOTING #433:
“You might even call me a (gasp) conservative! I even cringed when Nimoy ended the new movie with the INCORRECT verbiage “..to boldly go where no ONE has gone before.” AAAUUUUGH! It is no “MAN”!.,”
UNQUOTE!
My reply was:
“And to think the successful correction of striking “MAN,” which is exclusive, and replacing it with “ONE,” which is inclusive is something to be criticized! To the converse, it speaks volumes about the philosophy and level of maturity of a species.”
I suggest you TRY to follow along by reading other’s posts in their entirety, rather than appearing to “rattle your sword,” and attacking without full knowledge of what was said in the post to begin with.
Hey Bob and Alex:
Although I do not know you both personally, I wish to relay a message from dmduncan of TrekMovie:
“Thanks. Now if you’d tell Bob and Alex I’m available, and I work for pistachios and the love of Star Trek.” — dmduncan
***END TRANSMISSION***
There ya go dmduncan!
I said this once before, but I’ll say it again.
Dr. Daystrom puts the M-5 in some other ship. That ship then destroys the Botany Bay & takes on the war games combatants & destroy them all.
Kirk & Enterprise warp in & save the day. All this happens before the opening credits. Then the main story starts.
443: “Who said they have to say that the Eugenics wars occurred in the 90’s?”
The issue isn’t what they HAVE to do. They can cast Sasha Cohen doing Bruno as Khan if they want to.
It follows from everything Bob and Orci said during the Q&A. Nothing should be different in the new universe, if it were strictly a time travel story, before the point where Nero interferes. That then means there were Eugenics wars in the 90’s. The non fan public doesn’t know that, but Bob and Alex do, and they’ve been struggling to please both sides while telling a great story from the beginning.
Only there were NOT Eugenics Wars in the 90’s, so using that in Khan’s background WOULD confuse new people. A way to satisfy fans and new people alike would be to completely rewrite Khan’s history for the new universe, leaving the old Khan untouched for TOS purists who want their Eugenics Wars, and giving new folk a new Khan history that has nothing to do with Eugenics Wars in the 90’s.
That means making Trek an alternate universe story.
Yes, they could leave out all detail about his past, or they could move the Eugenics Wars into our future. The last option would again require an alternate universe, according to Bob and Alex’s own “rules,” and the first option builds on the obvious fact that there were no Eugenics Wars in the 90’s, so it depends on something defined in TOS that we all know never happened, whether they mention the year or not.
Using the approach I suggest makes both versions suddenly make sense. It explains why WE never saw Eugenics Wars, and it COMPLETELY frees up Bob and Alex to tell any kind of story involving Khan they want to. Suddenly he doesn’t have to be found on the Botany Bay at all. Maybe they find him in a freezer under the Museum of Natural History in New York.
“it’s much more efficient than introducing some convoluted subplot about Old Spock and alternate timelines which isn’t necessary and likely confusing for the uninitiated.”
Convoluted also describes the first movie, but most people liked it just fine anyway. Me included.
I still like this approach….the best one I have heard yet in keeping with the “Khan angle:”
Quoting #437 dmduncan:
“If Spock Prime were a part of the sequel story, then being made aware that the circumstances under which Khan were found were different than what he recalls happened in his time (for example, if Khan was not a refugee from 1990’s Eugenics wars), and inferring also that no disruptions to the timeline should show up before the point where Nero interferes, then the obvious difference in the facts surrounding Khan means that he (Spock) didn’t travel into the past of his universe, but went sideways into the present of an alternate universe.
Spock wouldn’t know this until he saw some difference in things that should NOT have been affected. At that point he would realize that he was mistaken about where he had ended up: In an alternate universe, and not the past at all. So Spock would realize after seeing this new Khan that he had miscalculated about what had really happened in the first movie.
In this way, Orci and Kurtzman can be truly free to rewrite anything. Fortunately, there is nothing in Trek ‘09 that compels a time travel vs. a alternate universe interpretation. Bob and Alex can change their minds and write it as an alternate universe story anytime they want.”
Unquote.
Best I think I have read yet supporting a “Khan” story-arc!
NO KHAN. NO KHAN. Please. D:
We need a new villian. We need revampment. NO OLD VILLIANS. Yes, I love Khan. To death. But one movie was more than enough! No recycled materical, plzkthx.
I wouldn’t even mind if we looked back on some things that happened on “Enterprise”. Could be interesting. Bring in the Dominion, for all I care, just don’t do an alternate-timeline remake of something we’ve already seen!
(My thoughts, anyways. xD)
are people here serious? I keep reading comments about alternate universes and how the Eugenics wars couldn’t possibly have happened because they were quoted in the 60’s TV episode “Space Seed” as happening in the 1990’s.. It’s a little bit ridiculous that people need a new universe to support the inconsistency. Why not just disregard it all together and make the Eugenics wars take place in our own, not so distant future? It’s a great story. I’ve never read the novel based on the Eugenics wars, but I’m sure the writers for star trek XII can whip something up from some ideas present in that combined with some of their own stuff. Open mind, and keep things simple, please. We do not need another time travel/universe plot.
I love the idea of having spock Prime becoming an ambassador in the new timeline.
Hmmm… I found this from “The Unseen Elements of Star Trek,” which illustrates the great talent of Samuel A. Peeples and states:
“SAMUEL A. PEEPLES (1917-1997): Best known as the writer of Star Trek’s second pilot, “Where No Man Has Gone Before,” but some people forget that he also contributed an episode (”Beyond The Farthest Star”) for the animated Star Trek series, and wrote an unused script for the second Star Trek movie (Worlds That Never Were) which discarded the character of Khan and, instead, involved two travelers from an alternate dimension facing off against Kirk and company.”
Source: http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/articles/wherenoman2.htm
It’s interesting to those unsupportive of a “Khan” story-arc, but can anyone find out more information regarding this script?
Twelve-year-old boy leaps from a stolen Maruti Ritz just before it plunges into the Ganges River.
IPS Officer: What is your name?
Boy: My name is Khan Noonien Singh!
453: “We do not need another time travel/universe plot.”
It’s not “another” one, it’s the one we already have, the one Bob and Alex made in Trek ‘09 to give themselves freedom to move.
Dear 445,
“Still, @ 433
Aren’t you a bit slow on the uptake here? That change was made in 1987 with TNG!”
Me? Slow? Check my posts. You’ll need all your google powers to keep up with the references, friendo.
Let me slow down. I am aware that the change to “one” was made in 1987. I am playing the iconoclast and denouncing it. Never liked it. Still don’t. Very weak. The Animated series is more relevant to me than TNG. To each his own!
If there’s Khan, I will not see this movie. End of story for me.
#458, yes you will.
LOL yes he will just to see if Khan is in it…then he will have already spent his money to get in while the droves of new fans (non-fans created by ST:XI) stampede by. Either way, it’s a WIN WIN scenario!
DON”T KHAN ME ,
REFIT THE ENTERPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SPOCKBOY KNOWS HOW TO REFIT THE ENTERPRISE.
HE KNOWS HOW TO KHAN A GOOD REFIT.
HE SHOULD REFIT IT FOR J.J. IN THE NEXT MOVIE
chris
warning for spamming. No more typing the same comment over and over again. over 20 times in the same thread is enough. And stop with the ALL CAPs, Finally warning for using multiple names.
comments to
http://trekmovie.com/about/feedback
Alright, Trek09 may not come out numerically superior than TMP (according to the inflationary adjustments), but it sure gave the franchise the shot in the arm it needed, and garnered far better reviews than TMP. This is not to say I didn’t like TMP – I like the Director’s Cut mostly, and had to wait quite a few years for that. But I don’t have to wait for a Director’s Cut of Trek09 before I’ll like it.
IMO, Trek09 (and those involved in its making) have taken some really unnecessary crap from a rather small, but terribly large-mouthed group of inconsiderate people who seem to be full of sour grapes because the movie wasn’t the same movie they envisioned in their own heads, or perhaps for some “insider” reasons. Oh well… that’s life, eh? Time to get over it.
Trek09 is a hit. Period.
I would like them to avoid retelling the Khan story. The character that Montalbán created was epic, unique, and could never be duplicated.
#465.
Sam – July 6, 2009
So was the character orig. acted out by William Shatner, Kirk.
Joker via Jack Nicholson
Never say never, the new Khan could have people saying, “I never should have doubted Bob and Alex.” Unbelievable story and potential Academy award for best supporting actor, goes to….
I say go for the Hail Mary, touchdown pass, and home run swing. This is the majors don’t settle for a less than ordinary script/movie. I dare you to do better than space seed and wrath of khan.
Fans just have to remember this is a new universe, the Enterprise possibly is not the ship that comes into contact with the Botany Bay, that awakes Khan and his crew. Could be another Federation, Klingon or Romulan ship, how those events can change how the story unfolds. The idea that the Botany Bay was discovered by Klingons would be interesting. Khan taking over a Klingon Destroyer or Bird of Prey, and Khan being of Human origins. The Klingons could seek the help of the Federation to find their missing vessel and Kirk/Spock try to prevent full scale war with the Klingons due to Khan’s crimes against the Klingon Empire…Star Trek: KLINGON EMPIRE, poster showing enterprise and Klingon Destroyer in epic sub style fight with Spock/Kirk and Khan/Klingons all with teleportation effects and tagline, MAY 5 2011
Tagline: Keep your friends close…But your enemies closer…
Great way to introduce both Khan and the Klingons to the existing fans and new fans of Star Trek. New Story, exploration, great villains, character development, ship to ship battles with torpedo cams, showcasing Khan, Kirk and Spocks intellect and tactics.
Here ya go: Khaaaaaaaaaan steals Spock’s brain and uses the guardian to travel back into the past where he gives the brain to Edith Keller but he doesn’t know that Gary 7 has been watching all of this and he grabs the brain and goes back into the future with help from Doc Brown and gives the brain to Teri Garr who sells the brain to Harry Mudd so she can buy drugs but Mudd gets drunk and leaves the brain at the bar where tribbles get at it and eat it. Now the tribbles are all empathic and they meld together to create a super tribble as big as a planet so Kirk has to talk Balock into lending his his giant huge ship to battle the super huge planet size tribble beast but just as the battle starts the Gorn calls and asks Kirk if his refrigerator is running and spoils everything. The end.
I don’t know why everyone is so hyped on another movie, I say screw that and make another series. The old startrek sets up ontill voyager, perhaps ds9, werent at all, from my perspective weren’t believably futuristic at all in addition to the fact that enterprise was complete garbage.
Plus, there is virtually no good, griping, sci fi left now that bsg is over, as well as sg1 and Atlantis. Even if there is a sequel it should be the start of a brand knew adventure with some ties to TOS (ie. Characters, races, names, etc) . but with mostly original stories.
After all, its a new Kirk, and its a new universe.
I don’t trust these writers period.
467. Too obvious!
remember when they use to be explorers?
Beg to differ
First I prefer a brand new story. I think Trek producers have been trying to remake Khan since the original never with great results. I say Khan=Montalban.
But if they would go there I don’t see Barden doing it. because Khan was almost a like a shakespearan characther far awy from Javier’s registry.
In my very humble opinion of course
Javier Bardem FTW
433
Thanks for commenting.
422. Gul B. – July 6, 2009
Many do want an original story, but what could it be?
How about showing us the academy days they made reference to so many times in the old show. Instead of “3 years later” Which felt so Gilligan’s Island to me. There’s a gold mine of original stories they ignored.
Javier Bardem would be perfect.
For all who dont know: Bardem has played many roles, and he can play Khan for sure. He even almost has his face.
A khan story can be different from the original but still be great. just dont remake Space Seed or Wrath of Khan story. do something new with him. (It is a new universe they’re in, so REINVENT finding him for example. make some other starship find him, he takes control, and Kirk,Spock, And Old Spock hunt him down. (OLD Spock knows him better then anyone in the NEW universe) It would be an awsome action pack story with starship battles and hand to hand fights. It would be Superman Khan’s intelect vs Kirk and the Spocks’ )
I would settle for a book but a movie would be INCREDIBLE.
How about the a return of the Horta?
I like the idea of the adrift SS Botany Bay being salvaged by the rogue pirate Harry Mudd. Once awakened, the genetic supermen of Khan and company would be hellbent on seeking revenge on humanity for their cosmic exile and rebuilding his empire in his new age.
With help from the unethical Mudd, he would capture unsuspecting ships and gather together an armada set on recapuring Earth and making himself dicatator of the Federation.
Enterprise would be in a far-off region exploring stange new worlds when a desperate subspace distress message is recieved that Earth has fallen to a madman
Interesting how Star Trek 09 deals with a angry Romulan character from the future and Star Trek 2011 will deal with a angy Super Human from the past :)
#474.
The Academy Years can be addressed in the TV Series/Animated Series/Books. Let the movies focus on story arcs/payoffs/movie worthy events.
I wish I can time travel into the future and report back what happened, and warn Bob and Alex of any mistakes lol If they do Khan and it’s successful ppl would praise, on the other hand if it fails, people would say, “I told you so, should have done the evil winds/exploration thing.” On the other hand if the evil winds and exploration idea fails, people would say ha should have done Khan.
I don’t envy these guys, people will always nit pick, stick to your strengths and just wow us.
As for Bob & Alex’ “rules”: they are applying the Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics for which there are many operative theories. I have yet to see Alex on record about it, as Bob seems to be the spokesperson for MWI-QM and has so far been adamant about applying his preferred theory which says:
All alternate parallel universes stem from a single origin universe, like the trunk of a tree spreading out into branches as it grows. The present ST09 universe did not come into existence until Spock triggered the quantum event with the red matter which accidentally pulled he and Nero into it, at which point the “Prime” universe branched into a brand new “Alternate” parallel universe from the point in the past where the singularity breached. Prior to that event, the Prime and Alternate universe shared the exact same past.
Therefore, to tell the Khan story, there had to be Eugenics Wars in the 1990s and Khan had to launch with his crew in suspended animation aboard the Botany Bay, or Bob and Alex have to admit they’ve been lying all along about the Alternate & Prime universe and they just rebooted everything any way they wanted.
To throw Bob & Alex a lifeline, they have said that they consider the events of First Contact and Enterprise as part of their “canon”. Though they have not said this officially, the inference is that the “Prime” universe from which “Prime Spock” comes is already an alternate parallel universe from that introduced 40 years ago in “The Cage” which is why there are non-canon aspects apparent before the Narada appears. If that’s the case, a further inference can be made that most if not all time-travel stories have already put Prime Spock into several alternate parallel universes over his life. In particular, the pre-1990 events of TVH, TNG, ENT and numerous TOS, DS9 & VOY incursions – including as yet unwritten stories which may have already occurred but not yet depicted. In which case, Bob & Alex are free to do anything they want, which is the whole point. Only time will tell. Literally.
480: “Therefore, to tell the Khan story, there had to be Eugenics Wars in the 1990s and Khan had to launch with his crew in suspended animation aboard the Botany Bay, or Bob and Alex have to admit they’ve been lying all along about the Alternate & Prime universe and they just rebooted everything any way they wanted.”
If it isn’t in the movie it doesn’t count. There’s nothing in the movie that compels a time travel vs. alternate universe interpretation of the events that occurred in Trek ‘09. By the device I suggested in 437, Bob and Alex can easily turn it into an alternate universe story completely without changing anything in the first movie except Spocks’ own view of what had actually happened when he and Nero went through the black hole. And in that way they don’t have to be tied to the Eugenics Wars at all.
If they DO stick to the Eugenics Wars introduced in Space Seed, then that would seem to make this new Star Trek a default alternate universe story anyway, like The Watchmen, since there were no such wars, and Botany Bay type spacecraft are a LONG way from existence.
So either way they go, they are heading towards alternate universes.
The question is, how do you explain it for new fans of the movie? Or is the explanation something you cut out of the movie and put in a special edition DVD for fans?
#284—”Hey, is Closettrekker on vacation or sick or something?”
Family roadtrip….4th Of July weekend.
“Should we all start calling hospitals?”
Lol.
For whom would you have asked?
I can see it now….”Hi there. Do you have a patient there named ‘Closettrekker’?”
Good thing it wasn’t Harry gone missing….
Let’s just hope O&K do better with Trek sequel than Transformers (terrible!).
But, to their credit, they were working with Michael Bay (yikes!). Keep that guy away from my Trek!
Why?
#482
Don’t worry, if any part of my surname goes missing, it usually drops down again after a while….ouch!
If Bay did Star Trek, our beloved Enterprise would have bigger nacelles, all painted with red flames and Uhura would dress like Megan Fox.
Kirk and Spock would dual wield future assault rifles, with lots of slow motion dramatic near death sequences sandwiched with trendy hip rock music that makes you want to join the army.
We would also have racist trash talking aliens with gold teeth and claim they do not read.
There would also be this epic sunset shot of our heroes slowling walking to the enterprise docking and return triumphant to F14’s/Shuttlecrafts flying over head and people cheering.
#481—”The question is, how do you explain it for new fans of the movie? ”
Quite simple…don’t.
The dialogue can simply be ambiguous to that point.
Or just retcon the Eugenics Wars. We’ve seen something similar already on the same subject matter.
“Space Seed” suggests that Khan had been asleep for two centuries. It was only much later that the time period in which the five year mission takes place was retconned to the “23rd Century”.
The dialogue in TWOK suggests that “200 years ago, (Khan) was a prince…with power over millions.” It is made clear that he is talking about 1996, suggesting at the time that the time period depicted in TWOK was at the very beginning of the 23rd Century.
Of course, the dialogue in TVH (and everything subsequent in canon) suggests that it was the “late 23rd Century”. Finally, VOY “Q2″ pins down the end of the five year mission to 2270—-completely retconning the relevant dialogue in TWOK.
Since it has already been contradictory within canon, why not fix it once and for all (at least for the fans who care)?
The writers can suggest that, once again, Khan has been adrift for nearly two centuries. If the story takes place in say, 2267 (as did “Space Seed” in the Prime timeline), then the end of the “Eugenics Wars” could be retconned to around the year 2067.
Anyone questioning the validity of the retcon would really have no canonical ground upon which to stand with that argument. The whole thing is already murky. As it stands, either 1996 is wrong—or two hundred years is wrong. Given that 1996 has already come and gone, the choice seems obvious to me.
I don’t see any difference between that and retconning the timeline (TWOK/TVH), the age of the Enterprise (TSFS), or Chekov’s birth year (ST09). The World did not come to an end then, and it will not come to an end now.
(chicken little voice)
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
487 Closettrekker
Hey, retconning the end of the Eugenics Wars to “around 2067″ would actually be useful, because ST: First Contact time-travel part is in 2063!
That would mean: Eugenic Wars = World War III, and solve that problem, too (for those who need that).
And if all that fails, there are always those time ships from the 29th century (VOY). And the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations.
487: “Quite simple…don’t.”
But the reason it makes sense to explain it, even if in a special edition DVD only, is because it would finally make sense of TOS. That is, the reason why we never saw Eugenics Wars or developed DY-100 class spacecraft so early is because TOS universe is not our universe.
So it actually clears something up and explains both universes. But that’s something that the public won’t care about at all.
“Space Seed” suggests that Khan had been asleep for two centuries. It was only much later that the time period in which the five year mission takes place was retconned to the “23rd Century”.
“The writers can suggest that, once again, Khan has been adrift for nearly two centuries. If the story takes place in say, 2267 (as did “Space Seed” in the Prime timeline), then the end of the “Eugenics Wars” could be retconned to around the year 2067.”
Actually, Spock and McCoy clearly reference the Eugenics Wars as occurring in the 1990’s in Space Seed.
So, if it becomes 2067, we are back to a default alternate universe explanation. All I’m saying is they should be clear about that so they can change how they treat Khan completely. If it’s an identical universe up until the time Nero interfered, then Khan should be on the Botany Bay. But if it’s an alternate universe completely, Bob and Alex aren’t bound to that storyline at all. So then he could be from 2067. But he wouldn’t be if the change to the new Trek universe occurred upon Nero’s interference.
Hence, the alternate universe treatment makes more sense than the time travel angle.
From Space Seed, Spock says of Khan: “From 1992 to 1996, absolute ruler of over a quarter of your world…”
So the specific time of both Khan’s reign and of the Eugenics Wars is not murky at all.
481. dmduncan wrote: If it isn’t in the movie it doesn’t count. There’s nothing in the movie that compels a time travel vs. alternate universe interpretation of the events that occurred in Trek ‘09. By the device I suggested in 437, Bob and Alex can easily turn it into an alternate universe story completely without changing anything in the first movie except Spocks’ own view of what had actually happened when he and Nero went through the black hole.
This requires Bob and Alex to change their minds about the science they insist exists behind the reboot, which allows the Prime universe to continue. Bob Orci said as long as he’s around Trek will adhere to MWI QM. Since Quantum time travel is unlikely to be proven by 2010, it is also unlikely the prevailing theory of MWI QM will change, and therefore, Bob & Alex will have to admit they were wrong in order to ignore the Eugenics wars taking place in 90s.
Perhaps they will change their minds. If they ever do, I will save my opinion for that moment. Until then I don’t think it is a reasonable expectation for them to do so. In particular, violating MWI QM once would undermine their entire argument for the continued existence of the Prime universe, which means it can officially no longer exist since there will be no governing rules.
Then again perhaps they will be replaced in a merger allowing a new set of writers to come in and do whatever they want.
ST09 takes place in Alt. Kirks academy days.
from there forwand, it can all be different.
from there on back, its all the same as Shanter’s Kirk.
Whats first contact have to do with anything???????????
#494
Nero is from the future TNG universe, ie. Picard/Data/Spock Prime universe. The same Picard and crew who time traveled back in time to ensure the Pheonix had it’s flight and made first contact with the Vulcans.
I also always felt that TWOK squandered the hope with which Space Seed ended when Spock mused about what the world they exiled Khan to would look like in a hundred years. I was disappointed that they turned the somewhat noble figure of Khan into a crazy psychopath with a cheesy costume and a mullet, for TWOK.
I thought he deserved better.
One more word regarding the casting of the new Khan. Let’s look at it this way: Imagine if instead of casting Antonio Banderas in the part of El Mariachi, Robert Rodriguez, flouting all common sense, went ahead and cast an Indian actor with an Indian accent to play a Mexican mariachi player.
How authentic would that have seemed? It would have seemed ridiculous. Yet we are expected to accept another Hispanic with a Spanish accent in the role of an Indian Khan?
If it’s going to be Khan, make him seem authentic.
#494
Nero is from the TNG universe, the universe with Picard/Data/Spock Prime. The same Picard/Data who time traveled in First Contact to ensure the Pheonix had it’s flight to make first contact with the Vulcans.
must have been lagging
493: “This requires Bob and Alex to change their minds about the science they insist exists behind the reboot, which allows the Prime universe to continue. Bob Orci said as long as he’s around Trek will adhere to MWI QM.”
Actually RD, the MWI is still what we’d have if they regarded the new universe as a total alternate universe and not a branch of the past of the Spock Prime universe. Bob and Alex wouldn’t have to change the science behind their explanation at all; they would merely have to say, through Spock Prime, that Spock Prime was wrong when, or if, he thought he had ever traveled into the past of HIS OWN universe vs. having made a lateral step through the black hole into an alternate universe that resembles the past of the universe Spock Prime is from.
That is actually what the MWI suggests, i.e., that there are an infinite number of universes where everything that did not happen in OUR past happened in the past of some other universe.
So by correcting their notion that everything was the same until Nero arrived, and that both Nero and Spock actually entered an alternate universe, Bob and Alex would be free to keep Khan but change the date of the Eugenics Wars and the circumstances under which Khan is to be found.
And that would not contradict any of the science behind Trek ‘09 at all.
#496
It is the same argument as to why Captain Picard a french character, played by a British Actor, has that lovely British accent. Imagine, “Make it so!” said in French. We all prefer the British accent due to the casting choice, sometimes things happen and you just go with it.
This is star trek, not real life. let them run w/the idea of the 1990’s war, who honestly cares if this is real… its a STORY!!!
#499
There are 10 rooms with doors linking each room, same measurements but each with different furniture and wallpaper choice. You leave one room for the next, the previous room does not cease to exist but rather what you observe and perceive has changed.
Just change the date from 30 years from which this Khan is introduced, if the 60’s version was trying to create a fantasy character in Khan that existed 30 years into the future 90’s. Bob and Alex just has to make this version of Khan exist in the year 2039. A good 24 years before first contact.
This Khan could be the reason why there was WWIII, nuclear fallout/ousted from power from events quoted in First Contact. Different factions fighting, perhaps he was trying to unite man kind and there was resistance, ie. Dictator
493: “violating MWI QM once would undermine their entire argument for the continued existence of the Prime universe, which means it can officially no longer exist since there will be no governing rules.”
If they revise their opinion about what actually happened in Trek ‘09 to make it an alternate universe story then the TOS universe totally still exists. Nothing has changed there at all. And this is consistent with MWI.
I think a lot of people are looking at the logic behind City on the Edge of Forever where McCoy changes one thing, and that does NOT create an alternate universe, but instead wipes out the future Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are from.
And how exactly does THAT happen Mr. Ellison? And why didn’t Kirk and company vanish with the Enterprise after McCoy changed history? No explanation.
I know City is regarded as one of the best Trek episodes (I agree), but it also has one of the most incoherent notions of time travel out there.
502: Yes.
I’ve always understood that Kirk and company didn’t vanish because they were protected while within the environment of the Guardian of Forever. The idea being that, while a pile of people wait to go through the Gaurdian one at a time, each person is not affected by the previous person’s jump. Not bad logic from a storytelling point of view.
The easiest way to solve the time travel paradoxes is to allow for every possible choice/reality to occur, so in effect, time travel is not constrained within the same universe but opening the doors to other realities. Changing the events in one universe (past, present, future) does not affect the universe (time period) from which you came.
The problem with this is that, you are not changing anything, you are mearly viewing and entering a different reality. Star Trek 4, The earth really blows up from the Whale probe, Star Trek First Contact, the Borg is successful. Star Trek Generations, Soran already won. In effect, we all all millionaires (in different realities) since every possible combination occurs but in different universes. I would rather see the other possible realities cancel out each other and only one true reality is allowed, the one you view and know. Is it chance we all happen to view the same reality (we are not all millionaires?) That is the different between imaginary and reality, what we perceive is real.
I can’t imagine and allow for every million sperm to penetrate the egg, there is only one true winner/reality, all the other 99.99% of the sperm are canceled out/dead, unless there is no 1 pre determined sperm and it is all rests upon chance, or the best sperm swimmer.
I cannot accept a reality where the poor swimming sperm is allowed to penetrate the egg, regardless of how lucky it is, it will not make it to the egg right? So in effect, there is no alternate universes, there is only 1 true winner/timeline.
No worries, I like how this new child is growing up to be.
Once you started comparing my future to a sperm I reached for the bottle of Scotch!
#509
LOL
508: “Star Trek 4, The earth really blows up from the Whale probe,”
NO! Because in an alternate universe scenario Kirk and Co. travel to the present of an alternate universe that resembles the past of their universe, retrieve the whales from the universe in which they still exist, return back to their universe, and the astro-whales go home happy.
507: “I’ve always understood that Kirk and company didn’t vanish because they were protected while within the environment of the Guardian of Forever.”
There is no reason given for it in the story. If the future they belonged to was to have vanished after McCoy changed history, Kirk and Co. should have vanished as well, because they were part of it.
You really do have to put it on the screen for it to count.
The best time travel story ever done was Francis Ford Coppola’s “Peggy Sue Got Married.” If time travel is possible, it won’t be because of any machine we’ll have to build. WE are the machinery of time travel.
Time After Time starring Malcolm MacDowell and David Warner was great, too!
499. dmduncan wrote: So by correcting their notion that everything was the same until Nero arrived, and that both Nero and Spock actually entered an alternate universe, Bob and Alex would be free to keep Khan but change the date of the Eugenics Wars and the circumstances under which Khan is to be found.
That is what does not work with Orci’s applied theroy of MWI QM at all.
First, for all the alternate parallel universes which presently branch from our own, there can be no communication between them, meaning travel from one branch to the other is impossible.
Second, when Spock and Nero accidently travel back in time, they created a new branch, they did NOT cross-over to a pre-existing universe, which is impossible under the theory Orci uses.
Every time a quantum incursion occurs (something that would allow a person from one universe to cross into another), a new universe where a probable set of circumstances to incorporate those variables branches from the current universe – there is not an actual bridge created between two existing universes.
If your perception of MWI QM were applicable, Spock could go home any time he wanted to by creating a bridge back to his universe. Since MWI QM prohibits this, Spock knows to attempt to get back to his own time would only branch him into yet another probable universe with no guarantee it would resemble the one he left, and most likely a future of the universe he’s in. But in either event it would NOT be the actual “Prime” universe he came from.
However, Orci can cheat by saying the “Prime” universe that Spock came from is not the linear “Prime” universe we think it is, but rather a variation created by some past incursion to pre-1990s, after the Wrath of Khan. Therefore, that branch would reflect the change to when Khan came to power. In fact, if Orci & Kurtzman take that easy way out, then that means, there is not just one “Prime” universe, but rather several “Prime” universes where different stories took place prior to a time travel incursion. Which also means we have not been watching just one Kirk, Spock & McCoy, but several, depending on which side of time travel story they appeared. EXAMPLE: when the DS9 gang went back to the Trouble With Tribbles events, the Kirk, Spock & McCoy they saw were parallel alternates, NOT the same ones we saw in the original episode. When the DS9 gang got back to their own timeline, NONE of the DS9 cast they left were the same, but rather parallel alternates as well. The net result of this is that “Prime Spock” may not be “The Spock” we first saw in “The Cage”.
Somebody with a lot of time on their hands could produce the retcon MWI QM chart that shows how many timelines from parallel alternate universes currently exist in the Trek universe due to the quantum event branching and how many different versions of the main characters there are to date.
#511
Kirk and Co. observe they are successful from their feat of retrieving whales. If alternative realities hold true, then there is a reality in which earth did blow up from the whale probe. Kirk and Co. simply did not observe that reality.
496 dmduncan
“How authentic would that have seemed? It would have seemed ridiculous. Yet we are expected to accept another Hispanic with a Spanish accent in the role of an Indian Khan?”
Uhh….that’s what I I keep saying.
509
I’ll have some of that with you Harry.
#515
If you can accept Patrick Stewart as Captain Jean Luc Picard (French Character) played by British actor, you can accept Mont or Bardem playing Khan.
NO KHAN PLEASE!!
NEW KLINGON STORY WOULD BE AMAZING!!!
I will be happy with either a Klingon introduction story (show their home world/culture/technology) or a brand new Khan story played by Bardem.
Or you can combine the two and make it a 2 part movie that links to Star Trek 2012 or 2013.
#490—”Actually, Spock and McCoy clearly reference the Eugenics Wars as occurring in the 1990’s in Space Seed.”
I am aware of that. But I’m not sure what difference that makes. “Space Seed” has already been contradicted. That was the point.
What I said was it was only much later that the time period of the five year mission was retconned to the 23rd century. It had nothing to do with when the 1990’s was first suggested to be the time period of the Eugenics Wars.
Both “Space Seed” and TWOK make use of the 1990’s as the setting for the Eugenics Wars. Both also suggest that the events depicted in the respective stories take place roughly two centuries later. However, since we know now that (canonically) the five year mission ends in 2270, and the original film era (according to TVH) takes place in “the late 23rd Century”—-it is already invalidated.
“So the specific time of both Khan’s reign and of the Eugenics Wars is not murky at all.”
It wasn’t then (in 1967)—but it is now. 2267 – 200 years = 2067…not 1996.
I’m not sure why you’re failing to grasp that.
It has already been retconned by basic math. Giving the end of the Eugenics Wars an alternate date which works within the math would simply make it official and more coherent. As it stands now, the dialogue in “Space Seed” (along with much of the first season dialogue from TOS) doesn’t work within canon.
I do like the new BSG so it brought to my mind this:
Let the Shat be Khan this time.
Everyone is assuming they can write an original story I have my Doubts
519. Closettrekker wrote: 2267 – 200 years = 2067…not 1996.
You’re kidding me right?
You criticize me for not taking McGiver’s guess as to Khan’s origins as canon since it was never refuted at a later date, yet despite the fact a very specific date is mentioned factually and authoritatively on camera, you would rather side with a general estimation of time relative to the dates set for TOS to determine when the Eugenics wars actually were?
I mean if I say “Star Trek has been on the around for 40 years”, are you going to say “no, you are wrong, it’s been on the around for 44 years”?
Am I missing something here? Did Spock or somebody say, “Kahn has been floating in space for exactly 200 years from today’s date”?
I don’t know about you, but I generalize time all the time. I still say the United States is 200 years old, rather than the actual 233 years. Granted 271 years is closer to 300 hundred, but I would still call it “two centuries” if I were casually stating the time, or “over two centuries” if I were trying to be more specific.
I really can’t see using a general estimation of time mentioned casually to contradict an extremely specific statement of time. Especially since by the time Space Seed was filmed, TOS writer’s knew very well what the actual year during which TOS took place was supposed to be.
Just making a point here:
Khan was a genetically engineered superhuman. There’s no reason why his ethnicity should necessarily match the area of the world he came from. For all we know, scientists might have used the gene juice from an East Indian, an Apache, a Bulgarian, a Maori, two Irishmen, an Iraqi and a couple of Puerto Ricans to make him.
#522—”…despite the fact a very specific date is mentioned factually and authoritatively on camera, you would rather side with a general estimation of time relative to the dates set for TOS to determine when the Eugenics wars actually were?….I generalize time all the time. ”
Let’s see.
2267-200 years= 2067. 2067- 1996= 71 years.
71 years difference? Rounding 271 years down to “200 years”? I don’t think so.
Come on, RD.
And that’s just “Space Seed”.
In TWOK, it is even worse. Go ahead and add 15 years to that. That’s 286 years since 1996, yet Khan is still calling it “200 years ago.” Please.
The real world answer to that is easy. By the time TWOK was written, it had only been decided that the story itself would take place “In the 23rd Century”. Now by that standard, the notion that he is “estimating” actually works—since adding 200 years to 1996 would place the time only 4 years shy of the 23rd Century.
But that’s not where the problem began.
In TVH, the dialogue suggests that it is the “late 23rd Century”—-rendering the “estimate” theory less valid. Finally, VOY (”Q2″) firmly establishes that the 5 year mission under Kirk ends in 2270.
“You’re kidding me right?
You criticize me for not taking McGiver’s guess as to Khan’s origins as canon since it was never refuted at a later date, yet…”
I’m not being at all inconsistent. The contradiction is already there.
And it isn’t even the only case of that. My reaction to it, however, is quite consistent.
Where a contradiction already exists, the later entry supercedes the previous one. If you have ever seen my comments about the TSFS retcon of the Enterprise length of service debate, then you already know this.
By that standard, the notion that the Eugenics Wars ended in 1996 has *already* been retconned.
The difference between this scenario and our previous discussion regarding McIvers is simple.
There is nothing in canon to refute McIvers’ suggestion. Obviously, there is more than enough canonical material to do so in this case.
I fail to see how that is not consistent on my part.
#523
Based on that logic, if you crossed French with Greek…..you’d get a FREAK!
#523—-”For all we know, scientists might have used the gene juice from an East Indian, an Apache, a Bulgarian, a Maori, two Irishmen, an Iraqi and a couple of Puerto Ricans to make him.”
There is certainly nothing in canon at this point which would preclude that.
But for now, all we have to go on is the opinion of the Enterprise “Ship’s Historian”—that Khan is probably a Sikh from Northern India.
516 somethoughts
“If you can accept Patrick Stewart as Captain Jean Luc Picard (French Character) played by British actor, you can accept Mont or Bardem playing Khan”
You’re talking to the wrong person. I never accepted Picard…whatever nationality he was supposed to be. Not my show.
#527
You are missing out, TNG was a great series, you should check it out sometime. My favourite was Yesterday’s Enterprise, Best of Both Worlds and All Good Things…
#527
Check it out when you have a chance;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_Alpha_II
to boborci (if your still reading)
have you picked up the recent WOK comics? in fact are you much of a Trek collector and if so what kind of stuff do you own/buy?
Head hurts, just do Plot A (Klingons/Cloaking Technology/Origins) and Plot B Khan and setup him up for Part 3. There ya go, have a great time in Bahamas drinking your juice and getting your tan. When you come back, write a kick ass Klingon Story and set us up for Khan in part 3, everyone is happy. Just make sure Khan doesn’t end up like Venom in spiderman 3, where he was under used and more of a cameo/toy to appease the fans.
513: “First, for all the alternate parallel universes which presently branch from our own, there can be no communication between them, meaning travel from one branch to the other is impossible.”
Says who? Certainly not science. That’s what Mirror Mirror was about. That’s what The Alternative Factor was about. If you want to leave Star Trek you’ll find that done in Science Fiction as well: Read “Job: A Comedy of Justice” and “Number of the Beast” both by Robert Heinlein, for instance, the latter of which actually involves the adventures of a small group of people jumping from alternate universe to alternate universe. What’s the diff between an “alternate universe” and an alternate universe that “branches from your own”? Where is it written that it is possible to cross between the first but not the second???
You are stuck on one interpretation. There are others that actually fit in with canon, and require very little of Bob and Alex to do to make the change complete.
Your interpretation of what MWI means would simply be repudiated as a mistaken understanding on the part of Spock of what actually happened, which he would realize once he saw any different circumstances under which Khan was found in the alternate universe, if Bob and Alex wanted to make changes to how Khan was found or changes to when the Eugenics Wars happened. Knowing that their shouldn’t be any differences, the appearance of such would immediately suggest to Spock the error in his own understanding of what had happened and where he actually is.
They could do it very easily with a few lines of dialogue for Spock Prime.
“Second, when Spock and Nero accidently travel back in time, they created a new branch, they did NOT cross-over to a pre-existing universe, which is impossible under the theory Orci uses.”
Which is why my whole point all along has been that he changes the theory, has Spock state it as his own misunderstanding, and there’s no more problem. Orci isn’t logically or dramatically committed to holding one particular interpretation forever.
“Spock could go home any time he wanted to by creating a bridge back to his universe”
Yup. And it’s something he should do as quickly as possible if he can figure out a way to get back there. Changing the interpretation let’s him do just that, which is yet another good reason to change it, because do we really need 2 Spocks in one Star Trek?
I don’t think so.
2 Spock or not 2 Spock, that is the question……
519: “It has already been retconned by basic math. Giving the end of the Eugenics Wars an alternate date which works within the math would simply make it official and more coherent. As it stands now, the dialogue in “Space Seed” (along with much of the first season dialogue from TOS) doesn’t work within canon.”
I’m sorry, but trying to make everything in Star Trek consistent with everything else is ridiculous.
Since they are building on the Khan story, I’m referencing the story of Khan as we see it in Star Trek, not cross checking stardates and mathematically deducing inconsistencies. My point was aimed more at the problems that would be created between using the Space Seed dates in connection with Orci’s Many World’s rationale behind the events in Trek ‘09.
All the inconsistencies are due to the absence of a central creative talent who enforced consistency on the different writers and directors who worked on the franchise, probably because, when Gene Roddenberry was running it, he and the others weren’t all that anal about perfect consistency. They wanted to change something, they changed it. End of story. I don’t see any need to give more weight to those stardates outside of that explanation. So I am not in favor of being moved to make inconsistent stardates consistent, nor do I care to see a “chart” of how someone proposes to make it all make sense.
However, if Bob and Alex are going to rebuild the story of Khan while asserting by their own rules that nothing had changed before Nero’s interference, then they HAVE to find Khan aboard the Botany Bay, and he HAD to have fled the Eugenics Wars in the 1990’s—that’s not mathematics, that’s the story line itself; they mention the 1990’s in Space Seed so much that it’s impossible to escape.
Unless they change their minds about the MWI, which is perfectly reasonable for them to do.
Of course, they could also say screw the rules, we’ll write it however we want. None of the other writers seemed to care about consistency, neither do we.
I’m okay with that too. : ) In fact, I think they probably should have done that from the beginning rather than bringing in black holes and alternate universes at all. But one of their ostensible reasons for doing it the way they did was to give these characters a wide open future, one where Kirk, in particular, did not die a stupid death at the fingertips of an inept writer in Generations.
So Bob and Alex are actually more concerned with “canon” than I would have been had I been remaking this franchise. Hence this discussion about how to make the old Khan and the new Khan mesh.
#532—-I think that the most obvious “interpretation” is the one applied to Star Trek since the very first season of TOS.
There is nothing onscreen in ST09 which contradicts the treatment of time travel within the Star Trek Universe as it has been applied for more than 4 decades in 52 previous time travel stories.
MWI/QM, as far as Star Trek goes, is “fanon”. It has been nothing more than offscreen commentary by one of the writers.
As far as I am concerned, the timeline we know from TOS-NEM has been altered by the appearance and subsequent actions of Nero. Nothing in the dialogue of the film suggests otherwise.
#534—”My point was aimed more at the problems that would be created between using the Space Seed dates in connection with Orci’s Many World’s rationale behind the events in Trek ‘09.”
MWI/QM isn’t canon anyway—so I hardly see how that’s a problem.
536: “MWI/QM isn’t canon anyway—so I hardly see how that’s a problem.”
Bob and Alex are the keepers of present and future canon now. And they’re adding to it with each new Star Trek movie they make. And they are doing much better than Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer.
#534—”if Bob and Alex are going to rebuild the story of Khan while asserting by their own rules that nothing had changed before Nero’s interference, then they HAVE to find Khan aboard the Botany Bay, and he HAD to have fled the Eugenics Wars in the 1990’s—that’s not mathematics, that’s the story line itself; they mention the 1990’s in Space Seed so much that it’s impossible to escape.”
That’s like saying that Bennett and Nimoy had no right to suggest that their story takes place in “the late 23rd Century”—which is just as contradictory to previously established material as the notion that the Eugenics Wars took place in a fictional 1990’s.
The phrase “200 years”/”two centuries” is just as often used in both “Space Seed” and TWOK as any reference to the 1990’s Eugenics Wars. Why is it that (in your mind) one can be retconned and not the other?
And they would not have to find Khan aboard the Botany Bay. Canonically, that did not occur until 2267. Anyone could find that ship—or no one at all.
Since the timeline has been altered, the likelihood that the Enterprise will once again discover the proverbial needle in a haystack that has somehow eluded everyone else for centuiries is slim at best.
Different timeline=possibility of different ships in different places at different times.
#537—”Bob and Alex are the keepers of present and future canon now. And they’re adding to it with each new Star Trek movie they make.”
Agreed, but they have yet to add anything about MWI/QM to “canon”.
Once again, there is nothing onscreen in ST09 which contradicts the treatment of time travel in the other 52 time travel related stories in Trek.
535: “As far as I am concerned, the timeline we know from TOS-NEM has been altered by the appearance and subsequent actions of Nero. Nothing in the dialogue of the film suggests otherwise.”
I understand that, but that’s not what I’m saying. Read my earliest comment on the matter where I was quoted in 451.
My point has been how Bob and Alex can stay true to canon (something they are concerned with) and yet have complete freedom to rewrite Khan anyway they please.
It’s all up to them. They may WANT to have Khan found aboard the Botany Bay as a refugee from 1990’s Eugenics Wars, in which case the only problem they face is how to explain or not explain Eugenics Wars in the 1990’s to an average non fan moviegoer who knows nothign about MWI and who might wonder if he slept through the ’90’s and that’s why he never heard of Eugenics Wars.
But if they do NOT want to follow the original time line, I am merely suggesting a way within canon and their acceptance of MWI that they can do it by slightly changing their interpretation of MWI so that the Eugenics Wars happened much later.
539: “Once again, there is nothing onscreen in ST09 which contradicts the treatment of time travel in the other 52 time travel related stories in Trek.”
Which is why my focus has been on the NEXT film, if that film will be about Khan, and what they can do there to give themselves more options within the rules they have set for themselves. THAT is where MWI would be explicitly stated by Spock as per my suggestion, which would also then add to our understanding of TOS as an alternate universe to our own, that being the reason why we never saw Eugenics Wars in the 1990s.
538: “That’s like saying that Bennett and Nimoy had no right to suggest that their story takes place in “the late 23rd Century”—which is just as contradictory to previously established material as the notion that the Eugenics Wars took place in a fictional 1990’s.”
They have a right to say anything they want or to be as inconsistent as they want. Consistency is not a life or death issue.
I’m not doing any retconning. I am as uninterested as those who made the inconsistent dates. But if you are going to do Khan, you do him based on Space Seed, not TWOK. Thus, you follow Space Seed, not TWOK, Harve Bennett, and Nicholas Meyer.
And if the crew of the Enterprise is still the crew who finds him FIRST then he does indeed have to be aboard the Botany Bay, according to Bob and Alex’s own logic, which I admit they are free to violate anytime they wish.
Notice that the above sentence is a hypothetical, and that Bob and Alex do NOT have to make the Enterprise the crew who FIRST finds him, even within their own logic. But IF he is found, then whoever finds him first MUST, if they are to be consistent with their own logic, find him aboard the Botany Bay.
Assuming, of course, that he is found at all, and does not awaken on his own near some planet he can land on.
Point being that if you develop Khan, you develop him from Space Seed first, and if he is still nuts by the time he meets this new Kirk, it will not be because Kirk exiled him to Ceti Alpha 5, where he learned to eat sand and grow a mullet.
#524 Closettrekker – I just don’t know where to begin. First, I will have to go back and look at the actual references to “200 years” which are made, to be able to argue this intelligently. At the moment I am aware of only three with respect to Khan:
THERE IS ONLY ONE REFERENCE In Space Seed – Kirk tells Khan they’ve been sleeping: “Two centuries we estimate”. Khan later repeats what he heard. Taken literally, the resulting date is 2067. The fact Kirk says “estimate” means he’s already fudging the numbers. The fact he says “Two centuries”, means he’s generalizing rather then being specific if he said 271 years. He could have said “two and a half centuries” and still would have been off by 20 years. If he said “three centuries” he would have been overshooting by 30 years. The fact he’s generalizing suggests his statement be given a certain amount of leeway. Only one word is missing, “OVER two centuries”, to make the statement unquestionable. It makes more sense to say this is why Kirk says two centuries, rather than they got all the other dates wrong. On the other hand, Kirk can’t even remember McGivers’ name after hearing it twice before getting onto the transporter, so it’s not entirely clear he’s doing the math correctly either.
McGivers also says that Sleeper ships were eliminated in 2018, far too many years for an obsoletely equipped ship to be around until 2067, even if a ship confirmed built in the 90s was still in use.
In the Wrath of Khan, Khan says: “Captain, these people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born”. Since Khan has no idea how old the captain is, he is speaking poetically. However, since the actor was 43 at the time and Khan guessed as close, that puts the date at 2033, invalidating your claim of 2067. Later Khan says: “On Earth, two hundred years ago, I was a prince, with power over millions…” once again speaking poetically, but if meant as an accurate date then he means 2082, not 2067. So now you have three completely different dates all of which contradict each other and the all of the specific canon which clearly references the 1990s. Ultimately, it’s ONLY Khan who says this and at this point is insane. And for all we know, he’s still referencing Kirk’s misquote from 15 years earlier he heard while half-asleep.
So of the three references you cite to “200 years”, or “two centuries”, not one of them corresponds to the same date. Yet you would have us take those references as literal references to the exact date of the Eugenics wars, despite numerous consistent references to the mid-90s and the 20th century throughout the franchise productions?
But as you say, conflicting references are resolved by the last reference in canon. Therefore, ST:ENT resolves all remaining doubt that the Eugenics wars and Kahn occurred at the end of the 90s in the episode “Augments” which takes place in 2154. Soong confirms that augments have been up to no good prior to 150 years, referencing back to 2004 from 2154. The Augments confirm that their brethren were on the Botany Bay.
So, I don’t really see any argument, unless there are other more specific references to “200″ years to help solidify a specific date which would have enough weight to nullify the myriad of specific references that put the Eugneics wars into the 1990s.
But to point out your inconsistency here, you take a single ambiguous line spoken by Kirk, made all the more questionable by the word “estimate”, to contradict the entirety of specific canon, backed up by two more inconsistent references by Khan, who is clearly speaking in general, if not poetic terms and who may not even know what the actual date is, compounded with his obvious insanity. He’s clearly not a reliable source from which to contradict all other canon references. Meanwhile, I point out McGiver’s exact words, equally ambiguous with the use of the words “guess” and “probably”, which do not canonically confirm that Khan is a Northern Indian Sikh, yet you take them as absolute canon simply because they are not refuted by anyone and are perpetuated by the person who made the original claim. Based on the exact same type of phrase, you dismiss one because there is nothing to refute it, but embrace the other when there is everything to refute it. Amazing.
It is ironic, because we were making the same point – there is a hook by which the canon can be retconned to have Khan be of almost any ethnic origin, and the Eugenic’s wars can tale place later.
495. somethoughts – July 7, 2009
#494
Nero is from the future TNG universe, ie. Picard/Data/Spock Prime universe. The same Picard and crew who time traveled back in time to ensure the Pheonix had it’s flight and made first contact with the Vulcans.
Again I ask, what does this have to do with the new movie And Khan?
As I see it, all this is the Alt Universes past just like the Prime Universes past. Everything from the new movie forwand can be ( AND WILL BE ) new. everything back is PAST. Khan is still in his sleeper ship waiting to be awakened and make Earth in his SUPERHUMAN image.
And Khan is from the 90’s and was the instigater (not literally) of WW3 after he felt earth. To me, the canon has not been broken with First Contact.
#532. dmduncan wrote: “513: “First, for all the alternate parallel universes which presently branch from our own… travel from one branch to the other is impossible.” Says who? Certainly not science.
Yes, it is exactly science that says this. In particular the interpretation of MWI QM that Roberto Orci claims to be applying to Trek.
dmduncan wrote: Where is it written that it is possible to cross between the first but not the second???
It is not written anywhere, because that is NOT what is happening. Old Trek canon does not apply here, in fact the way Orci applies the modern science of quantum theory, much of the old Trek canon is invalidated, including Mirror Mirror, The Alternative Factor and City on the Edge of Forever. In ST09, Spock & Nero DO NOT CROSS into another universe, they create a branch of their “Prime” universe in which they exist over a hundred years prior.
dmduncan wrote: You are stuck on one interpretation. There are others that actually fit in with canon, and require very little of Bob and Alex to do to make the change complete.
I am NOT stuck on anything. I am telling you why your suggestion to Bob & Alex is invalid based on what they’ve said … and if you read everything I wrote, I admitted as much that they would have to change their minds, which Orci said he would never do, and which results in other problems for some fans. While I’m sure they appreciate your suggestion on how they can revise their views to retcon Khan with the Eugneics wars, you are not likely telling them anything they don’t already know about Quantum theory. While I’m not entirely sure your idea is in fact a tenable theory of MWI QM, I know it is not Orci’s and we’re back to he has to change his mind and the implications to the claims they have already made about the nature of the Prime and Alternate universe.
If you haven’t done so already you should probably read this:
http://trekmovie.com/2008/12/11/bob-orci-explains-how-the-new-star-trek-movie-fits-with-trek-canon-and-real-science/
528
“You are missing out, TNG was a great series, you should check it out sometime. My favourite was Yesterday’s Enterprise, Best of Both Worlds and All Good Things…”
if Yesterday’s Enterprise is the one where Tasha’s back and they’re all at war then I did enjoy that one. I remember thinking “this is what I’ve been waiting for the show to be!”
#545. I think you were originally commenting on my post #480. What I recall Bob & Alex have said at some point is that they consider the events of First Contact and Enterprise, particularly the Borg cross-over as being part of ST09’s canon, meaning that the events of the Borg ship being discovered on Earth in 2063 affected the timeline as we knew it … i.e. Prime Kirk never knew about the Borg, but Alt Kirk does. This in part explains why there are certain non-canon differences regarding the Kelvin in the Alt universe before Nero & Spock show up.
However, since the events of First Contact & Enterprise take place in a linear universe where they can travel back in time and effect changes in their own future timeline, they do not conform to Orci’s application of MWI QM. Therefore, in order to retcon those incidents, what they say FC actually did was travel to an alternate universe which branched off our own in 2063. Then they returned to an alternate future which branched off of the alternate universe they just created by going back on time. This is the universe in which Enterprise takes place and ultimately the one ST09 branches off of.
What this means for the “Prime” timeline, is that there are more than one branch in which we have seen the various stories, and that the universe that Prime Spock comes from may not be the one in which we first saw him in The Cage (which also means this may not be the same Spock).
So how does this apply to Khan and the events pre-Kelvin? It means that any story after TWOK that traveled back in time prior to 1993 can be retconned by Bob and Alex in the same manner to account for a different past for Khan and set the Eugenics wars into a more applicable time period, not to mention change any part of Khan’s story that suits them.
In particular, they could use the events of ENT:”Storm Front” in which they traveled back to 1944, to make that the common past of the ST09 alternate universe, a past where the Nazi’s made it to the United States before they were defeated after their alien allies left. Since they maintain that “fate” intervenes to repair the timeline, all of the events we know from the past 40 years of canon likely happened, just not necessarily exactly the same way.
That’s what First Contact has to do with Khan. So if Orci/Kurtzman decide to do a Khan story, and if they decide to change the date of the Eugenic’s war (there’s no need to do it, they can simply avoid a specific date reference), this would be the way I would expect them to do it and both maintain canon and consistency with current science as applied to ST09. Which means we’d get another December interview where they explain MWI QM to the fans again. But that’s a lot of “ifs”.
547: “Yes, it is exactly science that says this. In particular the interpretation of MWI QM that Roberto Orci claims to be applying to Trek.”
Where RD? Time travel and MWI are all speculation. They are all theoretical models that may or may not be true. No one knows. So it’s not science. It’s science fiction.
And regarding the Roberto Orci interpretation—if he makes a slight alteration in his interpretation, then his view has changed, and you then have to deal with the new interpretation.
“It is not written anywhere, because that is NOT what is happening.”
I’ve been talking about what Orci CAN do, about what is within his power to do. Yes, if he keeps to the view that Nero went back in time and caused a branched off new universe, and he doesn’t change his mind about that, then that becomes what happened. No argument.
Bu it is totally within his power to change his interpretation of MWI to make Trek ‘09 an alternate universe story too by the mechanism I suggested in 451.
“While I’m sure they appreciate your suggestion on how they can revise their views to retcon Khan with the Eugneics wars, you are not likely telling them anything they don’t already know about Quantum theory. While I’m not entirely sure your idea is in fact a tenable theory of MWI QM, I know it is not Orci’s and we’re back to he has to change his mind and the implications to the claims they have already made about the nature of the Prime and Alternate universe.”
There’s no tenable theory of time travel at all, RD. Not even relativistic travel to the future which is faux time travel, not at all the kind of thing we see done in Star Trek.
I see what Bob is trying to say:
The USS Kelvin is destroyed which changes Kirk’s future (different from the Prime Timeline.)
Spock’s future changes with the destruction of Vulcan (Why Spock Prime’s Future is vastly different from his counterpart.)
Some of the other member’s futures are not altered like, McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura, among others.
These examples tend to support more of the idea that the universe is more or less “fluid,” with changes happening in the character’s pasts and futures.
So it is the “big ol’ happy universe,” it’s the individual components (parallel elements) which change. Would this not support the “Many Worlds Interpretation.”
Waveforms and Particles: Look at the waveform as changing the past and future of a person like as in a long MP3 file (person’s timeline experience) in which you can alter the order or arrangements of samples (particles as past and future,) but the song is much or less the same except where changes were made.
The song would still remain in the same jukebox (universe,) but you would still hear a different song due to the changes, and all of the other un-changed songs would not notice any changes.
To Kirk Prime, this would seem UNREAL, but to Kirk (ST:XI,) it would be REAL. Real and unreal refer to the parallel universes (Many Worlds Interpretation) viewpoint. You sit here in the REAL universe reading this, but meanwhile your UNREAL alternates are either doing the same or something totally different. Who knows, this text COULD be much the same or very different in the UNREAL universes.
I assume whether the universe is REAL or UNREAL depends on objectivity. YOU are sane and the rest of the WORLD is crazy or vice versa. Some even could go further and say this is the reason for deja-vu or a strong feeling of “knowing things” without any reason, who knows your alternate in another universe may be encountering this in their “REAL” and your “UNREAL” consciousness. Fascinating again isn’t it?
I can see this happening in time-travel, if you went back in time, met yourself as a baby, killed the baby, you would not die, but instead live on in a “branch” instead of the one in which the baby grows up to time-travel back and kill yourself, eliminating the “grandfather paradox” of temporal mechanics.
Now I have a headache, but I understand the “Trek” universe a bit more than I did.
Fascinating theory indeed.
549: “So if Orci/Kurtzman decide to do a Khan story, and if they decide to change the date of the Eugenic’s war (there’s no need to do it, they can simply avoid a specific date reference), this would be the way I would expect them to do it and both maintain canon and consistency with current science as applied to ST09.”
The context and reason for my suggestion, which I think Trekwebmaster immediately understood, was to give Bob and Alex a complete break with the past so they’d be able to reimagine Khan any way they wanted to regardless of canon. IF they wanted to do that. IF. I was merely blueprinting the logic they could use to do a totally original story if they had some brilliant idea that did not involve finding Khan aboard the Botany Bay.
And they CAN do it. You can’t appeal to the science and say they can’t do it, because the science behind all of this is fiction. There IS no tenable theory of time travel. It’s ALL speculation.
551: “I can see this happening in time-travel, if you went back in time, met yourself as a baby, killed the baby, you would not die, but instead live on in a “branch” instead of the one in which the baby grows up to time-travel back and kill yourself, eliminating the “grandfather paradox” of temporal mechanics.”
The grandfather paradox is actually a modal fallacy. There’s no need to propose alternate universes to resolve it at all. If you Google modal fallacy grandfather paradox you should be able to find a link where that is discussed.
Whoever first proposed the paradox didn’t see the fallacy involved, which revolved around the difference between what you can do and what you actually do. So if the MWI is proposed as a way of resolving that paradox, it’s not needed.
They didn’t have to resolve it, due to them realizing it wasn’t needed…
DMDUNCAN:
I am not so sure about this, even physics is leaning more to MWI…here is a revised version of my previous post to clear up some minor explanations or theories.
This is very close to how I assume it works in Star Trek and in our REAL universe and UNREAL parallel realities. I guess I should start thinking about there being just ONE FLUID universe and MANY PARALLEL realities either real or unreal.
Here’s the post again, let me know if you think it’s an accurate estimation of the “how’s” and “why’s.”
***
The USS Kelvin is destroyed which changes Kirk’s future (different from the Prime Timeline.)
Spock’s future changes with the arrival of Spock Prime and Nero so it was inevitable for Spock to experience an altogether different future. (Why Spock Prime’s Future is vastly different from his counterpart.) Some of the other member’s futures are not altered like, McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura, among others.
These examples tend to support more of the idea that the universe is more or less “fluid,” with changes happening in the character’s pasts and futures. So , it’s the individual character’s components (parallel elements) which change. Would this not support the “Many Worlds Interpretation?” I am more and more leaning to “Yes, it does.”
You might not understand how this could happen, but it all boils down to “waveforms and particles” of quantum mechanics. Try to visualize these two mystical elements as a “waveform” being a person’s past or future and particle being the samples in a MP3 file. The MP3 waveform could be in part, changed or re-arranged with new samples (history and future,) but the song would remain the song, just different due to the re-ordered samples or particles.
To Kirk Prime, the universe, in which Kirk Alternate resides, is UNREAL. Kirk Alternate would think that Kirk Prime is in an UNREAL universe, of course. The major deciding-point which dictates if a universe is REAL or UNREAL would be dependent on the person’s objective perspective.
Now I have a headache, but I understand the “Trek” universe a bit more than I did.
#550. dmduncan wrote: Time travel and MWI are all speculation. They are all theoretical models that may or may not be true. No one knows. So it’s not science. It’s science fiction.
You really need to look up the definition of the terms you use. Theoretical physics IS science. Quantum mechanics IS science. Orci is using the scientific theories to explain the fiction of time travel in ST09. There is a difference which you are missing. Stephen Hawking subscribes to MWI and as far as I know is a scientist, not a science fiction writer.
dmduncan wrote: I’ve been talking about what Orci CAN do, about what is within his power to do.
And I have been talking about what Orci has said he will NEVER do.
dmduncan wrote: There’s no tenable theory of time travel at all, RD. Not even relativistic travel to the future which is faux time travel, not at all the kind of thing we see done in Star Trek.
I NEVER said there was.
What I did say is that Orci’s application of theoretical science to ST09 has changed what we will see done in Star Trek, at least as long as Orci is in charge. As the ad says, this is NOT your father’s Star Trek. So it suggests you forget what you have seen done before in Star Trek. Orci has said emphatically he will not do it the same way.
However, like ST09 which allows purists to view time travel in the traditional old school Trek manner by not specifically stating MWI QM onscreen, I suspect Orci will take the same approach if he decides to do Khan. What I have proposed is one of the ways Orci is most likely to do it, based on what he has said. So even if you assume a linear timeline, the events of Enterprise “Storm Front” essentially overwrote the old timeline and everything we knew since 1944, resulting in the delay of the Eugenics wars and the subtle changes to canon before Nero & Spock arrives in ST09 – yet these changes can all be explained by branching universe theory of MWI as well.
So god does have brothers and sisters who look after our alternate universe souls
AN INTERESTING PARALLEL
By: TREKWEBMASTER / TC Jones
The new and exciting theory of “Many Worlds Interpretation,” is gaining much ground in today’s quantum physics. From the “Big Bang” theory to “String Theory,” it all seems perplexing to the average person. It is really not that difficult to understand the theories if you are willing to be open-minded and “tune-in.”
The popular website, “How Stuff Works,” describes the “Many Worlds Interpretation,” as being an explanation of quantum mechanics “is that it undermines our concept of time as linear.” How can time not be linear, one might argue, but “Many Worlds” would interpret it differently, and to some, the result would be “disturbing,” says, Josh Clark, author of “Do Parallel Universes Really Exist?”
According to the “How Stuff Works,” article, “a measurement taken of a quantum object causes an actual split in the universe.” This statement is very intriguing in regard to quantum mechanics further explained by the article’s author Josh Clark’s explanation by Everett is that: “The universe is literally duplicated, splitting into one universe for each possible outcome from the measurement.” Daunting, isn’t it? Not really if you think about the universe as being “fluid” instead of “rigid.”
It all revolves down to measurements of quantum objects. Think of a quantum object as a particle of light or wave of light. Ok, which one is it? Actually, it can be both, but not at the same time. And this is where it gets interesting. Say that a scientist decides to measure this object. How does he do it if the object is both? He can’t. Then the universe does something really interesting says Josh Clark writing in “How Stuff Works” which details the theory of “Many Worlds interpretation” of when: “a scientist in one universe finds that the object has been measured in wave form,” thus the other scientist, you guessed it, “measures the object as a particle.”
Now here is where the “disturbing” part comes in and for most is the most distasteful part of the theory, but this could also explain “deja-vu” or “sudden insight,” but this is delving into the really “unknowns,” but is fascinating to say the least. Ok, ready for the “blood and guts?” Here goes. “How Stuff Works,” says: “if you have ever found yourself in a situation where death was a possible outcome, then in a universe parallel to ours, you are dead,” and this could be a reason why some people seem to possess “hidden insight” about events real or unreal in our own universe. Or is that our own “parallel” universe? Anyway, you get the picture.
“Shudder at the thought,” “A possum ran over my grave,” “To think it is to do it,” or “A stitch in time saves nine,” could be real-world “layman-think” which explains a theory that seems to have “rebooted” itself into popular and sometime, not-so-popular theories of “How Stuff Works,” especially in J.J. Abrams’ new Star Trek reboot and in Everett’s theory of Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Now, I just wonder how many “me’s” are clicking the “say-it” button on all of those “TrekMovie” sites out there? There is no telling, but if I know my Spock Primes correctly, I dare say that “they” are driving a multitude of “alternate” Anthony Pascales crazy!
Source: Clark, Josh. “Do Parallel Universes Really Exist?” How Stuff Works. July 8, 2009.
#558
Fascinating.
It’s like choose your own adventure book that is complete and fully mapped out and never ending. What you observe, is based on cause and effect, ultimately depending on what choice you make.
Or could it all be just a illusion? and it really is just a series of different roads and paths that all lead to the same destination no matter what?
Consider the left road, the path looks different but ultimately leads to the same destination as the right road. Both paths looked different during the trip but the destination was the same, ie. death. Life and Death.
When it comes to having a fulfilling life…most people can’t find the on ramp!
556: “You really need to look up the definition of the terms you use. Theoretical physics IS science. Quantum mechanics IS science.”
Actually, you need to pay attention to what I’m saying. Yeah, sure, theoretical physics and quantum mechanics ARE science. But the MWI is a purely speculative notion that may or may not be true, unlike the Special and General Theories of Relativity, and the Theory of Natural Selection which have plenty of hard evidence to back them up. Get it yet? Theory and speculation are not necessarily the same things. That’s how science works. You come up with a hypothesis to explain a set of facts or to make sets of facts play nice together, then you test it to see if it’s solid. If it is, and other people have duplicated your findings, it turns into a theory, an explanation of how things actually work.
THAT isn’t MWI. Not–even–close.
The MWI is pure speculation without any hard evidence to support it. So there are theories, and then there are Theories. The former are little more than untested hypotheses.
“And I have been talking about what Orci has said he will NEVER do.”
In other words, if it comes out tomorrow that the science in Trek ‘09 is totally off, BobOrci STILL can’t change his mind because he promised RD?
Finally: Any difference in the past that did not happen before would instantly create an alternate universe, isn’t that the argument?
So if Spock creates a black hole in what is alleged to be “the past” where no black hole had appeared in the past before, such that Spocks’ actions caused a change to the “past” by the very appearance of a black hole where none had been before, then that difference itself would create the alternate universe—BEFORE the Narada’s attack on the Kelvin.
By the time Nero and Spock went through, they would have been let out into an alternate universe.
Bottom line RD is that you have to willingly suspend disbelief for so much of this to make sense because when it’s said and done, it’s still just a movie made to entertain people and make money.
The alternate universe/time travel/red matter bomb was a TRICK to give the writers the freedom to do what they wanted. It wasn’t science, it was HOLLYWOOD.
#561. dmduncan wrote: Actually, you need to pay attention to what I’m saying.
I have no idea what you are saying anymore. You seem to just make circular arguments. I have no idea what your point about Spock & Nero & the black hole is …
In other words, if it comes out tomorrow that the science in Trek ‘09 is totally off, BobOrci STILL can’t change his mind because he promised RD?
How do you infer such things? Orci has clearly said he wants Trek to adhere to the “the most successful, most tested scientific theory ever, quantum mechanics”. If that changes tomorrow, then by Orci’s own admission Trek will adhere to its replacement. Period. It has NOTHING to do with me, much less his promise to me.
However, that has NOTHING to do with Orci, “changing his mind”, it has to do with Orci conforming to the newest “most successful, most tested scientific theory ever”. That is the promise he made, not only to me, but every Star Trek fan, and most importantly himself by his statements and actions. If he just “changes his mind” in order to accommodate your particular scenario, which does not conform to “the most successful, most tested scientific theory ever”, then he will have to answer for it – because that is what he sold his entire reboot of the film to the fans on.
Suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy the movie has NOTHING to do with debating the tenets and ideals behind making ST09. Using Orci’s analogy, if the writers decide that the Earth is flat in one movie and then make it round in the next, that would affect both the type of stories they wrote and cause confusion for the audience. So it is with MWI QM in their estimation. They have set up rules by which they intend to write stories. We have only their word for it, but until they flat out lie to us, then I would take them at their word.
The beauty of their well thought out underpinnings for the fans, is that you will likely be able to walk away believing whatever you want, since they will most likely leave the science behind their decisions off the screen. The one thing you can be sure it will not do is violate “the most successful, most tested scientific theory ever, quantum mechanics”. For anyone who wishes to apply any other theory, they will most likely be in for a long evening of fanon retconing.
#544—”…far too many years for an obsoletely equipped ship to be around until 2067…invalidating your claim of 2067…then he means 2082, not 2067.”
Lol.
I think you took the whole “2067″ thing out of context. I wasn’t advocating that exactly. I simply used it as an example of a potential retcon for the EW. It really could have been any number better suited to the repeated “200 years”/”two centuries” comments in both stories (of which there are 4 that I can recall offhand).
The point was that the use of the 1990’s in both “Space Seed” and TWOK has already been canonically called into question. My initial response was to dmduncan’s claim that the notion of the Eugenics Wars ending in 1996 would be a hinderance to any future story involving Khan.
“…you would have us take those references as literal references to the exact date of the Eugenics wars”
No, I would not. The math was just to demonstrate how far off 1996 was from those (4) references.
RD:
If you are saying that the TOS “universe” is diferent from the TNG “universe” we see in the series, I can’t believe that.
But doesn’t First Contact happen after the series TNG. So everything we see in the series/universe TNG would conform to the TOS series/universe? After would be different, no?
#544—”But to point out your inconsistency here, you take a single ambiguous line spoken by Kirk, made all the more questionable by the word “estimate”, to contradict the entirety of specific canon, backed up by two more inconsistent references by Khan, who is clearly speaking in general, if not poetic terms and who may not even know what the actual date is, compounded with his obvious insanity. He’s clearly not a reliable source from which to contradict all other canon references.”
Actually, there are four reference to the 200 years estimate—which I agree is an estimate any way you look at it.
It is one thing to suggest that Kirk is wrong, and off by 71 years when he says “two centuries”. But Khan? Forget the fact that he is genetically engineered. He knows what year it is! The man absorbed half the computer library. How could he not?
The reason for the contradiction is simple. The writers in TOS had no attachment to the year 2270 as the end date for the five year mission. They had no attachment to the 23rd Century as the time period depicted in Star Trek, much less the “late 23rd Century”.
I am not suggesting that “Space Seed” is self-contradictory. Nor am I even suggesting that TWOK is contradictory to “Space Seed”, since all that TWOK really suggests is that its own story takes place in the 23rd Century.
But common sense should tell you that you do not round “271 years” (much less 286 years) to “200″—-particularly when such simple arithmetic as subtracting the year 1996 from the current year could be done in the sleep of a man such as Khan Noonien Singh.
As for the supoosed “inconsistency”—-4 canon entries call into question the plausibility of 1996.
Not even one canon entry calls into question the accuracy of the supposition on the part of the Enterprise Ship’s Historian. My position on that is that, while a door is open for reinterpretation without violation, there is no reason to say it isn’t canon until such time as another canon entry invalidates it or at least calls it into question.
It’s two very different scenarios. One has been challenged by a subsequent retcon of the timeline (from TVH onward), while the other has never even remotely been challenged.
That is not inconsistent. Period.
Closettrekker:
I think the 1990’s Khan “story” should stick.
Let me explain my thinking.
Imagine ( this is an example only ) it’s the year 2211. I’m watch Star Trek and I see that the Transporter was invented in the year 2174. I would be like, NO WAY, it does exist even no. How are we going to believe that. Well its a story. Khan is a story just like Star Trek. It’s not our future by a long shot. It’s like the 1950’s comics that said in the year 1980 we would be living on Mars. Well I pretty sure we ain’t living on Mars yet and it’s 2009.
If Khan is from the 1990’s, I will believe it because it’s a STORY.
If you haven’t caught what I’m trying to say, I’ll say it.
It’s a story.
And just like H.G. Wells, no one in the 1900’s has time traveled, and you still like his story “The Time Machine”. ( at least I do )
2082, 2067. If these dates are are for when Khan was on earth in another star trek series, whoever did this, broke CANNON big time. (In my opinion)
The Original Series was there for something. (Also in my opinion)
I feel that Star Trek writers should stick to what came first and not change stuff to their liking. Unless every Star Trek series is an Alternate Universe in itself.
#538. Closettrekker wrote: The phrase “200 years”/”two centuries” is just as often used in both “Space Seed” and TWOK as any reference to the 1990’s Eugenics Wars.
Actually no.
In Space Seed, Kirk says “Two Centuries” and Khan simply states he heard Kirk say that. That is the only reference to a period of 200 years.
In contrast, there are 7 specific references to the 1990s. In addition there are several specific references to Khan being from the 20th Century. That’s over 8 to 1.
In TWOK, you are correct. There are exactly two uses of each. Checkov says “late 20th Century” and Khan states his ship was lost in “1996″ in addition to “200 years before you were born” and “200 years ago”. Unfortunately, neither of Khan’s references to 200 year periods date to the same year, nor Kirk’s original reference.
So, between the two stories, in total there are three uses of a 200 year period each corresponding to a completely different date, contrasted by at least 10 references to the exact same period in the 20th century and 1990s. That’s a pretty flimsy ratio to retcon to a different date and hardly “murky”.
#563. Closettrekker wrote: “The point was that the use of the 1990’s in both “Space Seed” and TWOK has already been canonically called into question.”
This is a handy reference for this discussion:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Talk:Eugenics_Wars#Reference_reassessment
The final and most recent retcon confirmation comes from Dr. Phlox and ENT:”Borderland” in which he observes that the genetic engineering work that Soong is using from the Eugenics wars is pretty sophisticated for “20th century Earth”.
As for satisfying the notion of the Eugenics Wars ending in 1996 would be a hinderance to any future story involving Khan, nothing so complicated (nor controversial) need be retconed, especially since Enterprise has seemingly put it to rest canonically. All one has to do is assume the timeline was changed after ENT:”Cold Front” and overwrote everything going forward, resulting in a slightly different past than we know, but which was normal for Spock & Nero. Abrams has already said that things were changed on the Kelvin when Spock & Nero arrived in the past, so I would imagine that was intentional to leave open the possibility of shedding any other canon attached to earlier canon from Enterprise and now Khan. Of course the same explanation used for ST09 applies here as well, no matter if you accept MWI QM or a single linear timeline.
#564. james vincent wrote: “If you are saying that the TOS “universe” is diferent from the TNG “universe” we see in the series”
That is not exactly what I am saying.
1) To reconcile everything that came before ST09 with MWI QM, every time travel or alternate universe story, each incursion must branch it’s own universe. Therefore by MWI QM the TOS universe IS DIFFERENT from the TNG universe. Not only that, but TOS & TNG do NOT even respectively take place all within the same universe. Orci says as much in his interview with Anthony here:
http://trekmovie.com/2008/12/11/bob-orci-explains-how-the-new-star-trek-movie-fits-with-trek-canon-and-real-science/
2) Since MWI QM is not yet canon, rather than new universes being created each time, First Contact merely changed our linear timeline, which affected all future events after that. So depending on how big the change was, entire canon can be wiped out (from happening again, since it clearly already happened), and that is one view of ST09 to get around the fact that timetravel and alternate universe stories don’t work the same way MWI QM mandates.
So take your pick … either the “Prime Universe” (or universes) still exists with major retconing, or it has been over written over a dozen times, but all the canon still fits (as well as it ever did). Or just forget canon and call it a reboot.
james vincent wrote: “But doesn’t First Contact happen after the series TNG. So everything we see in the series/universe TNG would conform to the TOS series/universe? After would be different, no?”
If you ONLY take into consideration First Contact. My point is, that by referencing First Contact as a basis for the changes we see in the Kelvin, Orci has opened the door to creating a new universe for the purposes of retcon storytelling from any time travel incursion anywhere in the Trek franchise, like TOS:”Tomorrow is Yesterday”.
In the interview with Anthony, Orci says that Spock comes from the timeline at the end of Nemesis. However, he has already said that he views each time travel incursion in the old series as creating a new alternate parallel universe. In which case, despite Spock coming from the last TNG universe we saw, by his own argument, this is NOT the same universe from which Spock originated in TOS. The question then becomes, is the “Spock Prime” we see affected by other time travel incursions from other TNG universe episodes which came after First Contact, or the ENT universe which proceeded everything else, and also included a TNG era story as part of its canon. Only Orci can decide and explain that, depending on the story they decide to tell next.
#567—”In Space Seed, Kirk says “Two Centuries” and Khan simply states he heard Kirk say that. That is the only reference to a period of 200 years.”
Given that McCoy confirms what Khan recalled hearing as correct—I’d say that qualifies as a second reference to the same point.
“That’s a pretty flimsy ratio to retcon to a different date and hardly ‘murky’.”
I’d say you have pretty high standards for qualifying something as “murky” in this instance.
3 more instances of mention in the two stories doesn’t, IMO, make ‘1996′ any more “canon” than ‘two centuries’/'200 years’.
It isn’t at all “murky” to me either until after TVH—when the four “200 year” references become less plausible estimates for anyone, much less someone of “superior intellect”. Whether the ratio is 7 (and I’ll take your word on that) to 4 (I’ll have to insist on that) or not—-anyway you slice it, there are still 4 instances where the math doesn’t work.
2267-1996=271 years (not even close to 200 years)
(and)
2282-1996=286 years(even further from 200 years)
Neither 271 nor 286 can reasonably be rounded down to 200 years, IMO—therefore I don’t think retconning something which is already questionable to begin with is a big deal….and in case you’ve forgotten, that was the whole point of my comments about it to begin with.
Retconning 1996 wouldn’t be the end of the world—rather, it could actually make the notion that Khan and his people were aboard the Botany Bay for two centuries more reasonable.
I feel that is a valid opinion.
“As for satisfying the notion of the Eugenics Wars ending in 1996 would be a hinderance to any future story involving Khan, nothing so complicated (nor controversial) need be retconed, especially since Enterprise has seemingly put it to rest canonically. All one has to do is assume the timeline was changed after ENT:”Cold Front” and overwrote everything going forward, resulting in a slightly different past than we know, but which was normal for Spock & Nero. ”
As I indicated in my initial post on the matter, I don’t believe it even needs to be that complicated.
My first response to dmduncan was that it isn’t necessary to mention “1996″ at all. They can simply say, “200 years ago” or something like that. In murky canon waters, ambiguity is a friend to the writers.
It was only afterwards that I brought up the fact that the notion of a 1990’s Eugenics War doesn’t exactly work anyway with “200 years” and the establishment of the five year mission as taking place in the 2260’s.
But as you know, it isn’t just the math.
Although not at all a problem for me—some fans (many of them pro-retcon) cannot stomach the fact that the 90’s have come and gone without Khan or a period of Eugenics Wars. That’s also a potential issue for non-traditional fans hearing about the 1990’s EW for the first time.
I say, for the purposes of a potential Khan revisitation, either don’t be specific about it—or retcon it officially, once and for all. Both options work for me.
RD thanks for the explaining.
I pretty much now just think of each series as a different universe that is basically the same except for a few details. It is easier for me that way and I get to stay loyal to all of them. LOL
Again thanks.
Closettrekker:
I still like Khan being from 1990’s. But your solution of just saying “200 years” is the best way to stay loyal to all the series.
Unless Star Trek history is totally different from our history. In that case you could say WW2 ended in 1944 before Pearl Harbor and it wouldn’t matter because its not our universe anyways. And it’s a story. Nothing more nothing less.
#569. Closettrekker wrote: Whether the ratio is 7 (and I’ll take your word on that) to 4 (I’ll have to insist on that)”
You don’t have to take my word for it, I posted a link to the specific references on Memory-Alpha.
As for 4 references to 200 years, I will have to insist that the two in Space Seed all stem from Kirk’s “estimate”. The fact McCoy confirms what Khan heard is not surprising since he was there and heard Kirk say it as well – McCoy is merely saying Khan remembers correctly (or at least that is debatable). Nevertheless, 3 or 4 references to 200 years, each one of them references a different date:
2067 in Space Seed (Two centuries we estimate) 271 years
2033 in TWOK (200 years before you were born) 249 years
2082 in TWOK (200 years ago) 286 years
If Khan knows the date, then why does he get it wrong twice in TWOK, despite confirming an exact date of 1996 which Checkov further confirms as the late 20th century?
Also, again, the final and most recent retcon confirmation comes from Dr. Phlox and ENT:”Borderland” in which he observes that the genetic engineering work that Soong is using from the Eugenics wars is pretty sophisticated for “20th century Earth”.
That squarely and definitively puts Khan in the 20th Century under the rules of canon. Unless the Eugenics wars lasted longer than 4 years, and Khan is over 70 years old at the time he was put in the sleeper, both Khan and the Eugenics wars occurred as overwhelmingly specified by canon.
Of course Orci can always retcon any way he wants, but avoiding a specific year would be better than trying to change the year for the majority of the fans who adhere to canon.
#572—”If Khan knows the date, then why does he get it wrong twice in TWOK, despite confirming an exact date of 1996 which Checkov further confirms as the late 20th century?”
Once again, because Nick Meyer’s story is told before the decision to retcon the timeline to the “late 23rd Century”. Within the dialogue of TWOK itself, Khan is not incorrect. All that TWOK suggests is that the story takes place in the 23rd Century.
2201-1996=205 years. Now we’re talking about a more reasonable estimate. That held up just fine in TWOK.
It is not until TVH (directed by Leonard Nimoy, who is responsible for more than one notable retcon) that the timeline is retconned to the “late 23rd Century” —later, albeit indirectly, narrowed down to 2282. There is quite a difference between saying “23rd century” and “late 23rd century” (2282-2283, which is the time period of TWOK-TSFS-TVH).
“…avoiding a specific year would be better than trying to change the year for the majority of the fans who adhere to canon.”
Which was what I suggested in my initial post on the matter. The dialogue never has to include anything so specific, and probably shouldn’t—since it would undoubtedly be distracting to the newcomers who would be hearing about the notion of a 1990’s Eugenics War for the very first time.
However, I still do not believe that contradicting something which has already been rendered questionable by the subsequent retconning of the timeline to 2270 as the end date of the five year mission, and the “late 23rd century” as the time period depicted in the TWOK-TSFS-TVH story arc, is all that big of a deal…and I consider myself a fairly ardent canonista.
You’re right about Manny Coto’s “Borderland”, and that is the latest canon entry on the Eugenics Wars. That further supports my initial response to that (one with which you apparently concur) as being the most prudent—since obviously nothing can save Khan’s poor arithmetic.
562: Orci has clearly said he wants Trek to adhere to the “the most successful, most tested scientific theory ever, quantum mechanics.
Except that adhering to that theory doesn’t necessarily get you ONLY to the scenario depicted in the motion picture, RD. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you. A way has been proposed of traveling to the past using a rotating wormhole, or of using a Kerr black hole on one side and a white hole on the other—but speculation abounds about where a black hole ends up: Current speculation holds they could end up in another time, a more distant place in our universe, or in a completely different universe altogether. Comprende?
But the key thing is it’s all speculation. No-one-knows. What I’ve been trying to get through your head is that traveling into an alternate universe is as much a reasonable assumption from what we saw in the film as traveling into the past given that they are both purely speculative ideas.
“If he just “changes his mind” in order to accommodate your particular scenario, which does not conform to “the most successful, most tested scientific theory ever”,”
It’s the same thing, RD. You don’t understand what I’m talking about. BOTH the time travel and alternate universe results are equal speculations. One isn’t based on solid tested science while the other is not. He wouldn’t be trading solid science for weak science. Because they are BOTH weak speculations. Neither has more evidential force than the other. He can switch from one to the other without breaking his promise to you.
The only difference is the complete freedom from TOS canon an alternate universe gives them.
#574 – I don’t think you understand what you are writing about.
First: you don’t have to convince me of anything. You have to convince Orci.
Second: You keep writing about time travel, black holes and alternate universes, missing Orci’s point entirely. He is talking about the mathematical theorems which underlies the MWI QM, which has nothing to do with any of those things, but rather the rules which govern the science of quantum physics. Orci then applies that to his science fiction. You on the other hand are talking pure science fiction. The most popular view of MWI and the only one Orci uses, says explicitly that a quantum event produces a branching world allowing for every possible outcome postulated for the event. Physics says the resulting worlds may have no communication between them and this is currently proven by math. There is no other interpretation, only theories of application.
While nothing you propose can necessarily be written off (and certainly not by me), it violates the current, most accepted view of MWI, which physicists have been debating longer than there has been Star Trek. You drew yours up in an afternoon on a napkin mixing and matching like an off the rack suit, whatever cosmic theories suit your particular science fiction scenario and throwing them altogether without so much as a single mathematical theorem to prove it might even be cohesive, or whether they conform to MWI QM. You seem to think Orci just decided to base all of ST09 on some random theory written up on the inside flap of a book jacket he saw at an airport news stand. You write about MWI QM like there is no proof(s) behind the current application which physicists must accept or disprove, whether any of it can be empirically proven, and further that MWI QM is the actual application of the physics to various theories about what happens in a black hole and other cosmic events, rather than the science applied theoretically. That is NOT the same thing as what is proven mathematically and currently on the table, whether it all changes tomorrow or not.
The only point I am trying to get across is that Orci has stated he will only use the latest and greatest science to explain his story and that he has stated it is MWI QM. MWI QM does not allow for communication between universes due to the present limitations of the linearity of physics. Therefore, whatever application you make of MWI QM that violates the non-communication rule of physics, is invalid for Orci. Therefore, no application of the science will allow for an evil Mirror Universe, or another Alternate universe where Khan came to power later (other than branching), or even for Prime Spock to return to the universe in which he originated, and therefore none of those things can happen as long as Orci is driving the ship.
As I said before, if he wants to change his mind, then he’s free to do so. But he says he won’t, so I take him at his word. Personally I don’t care either way. Trek is fiction – Science fiction, which means anything can happen without any real science being followed at all. But Orci insists Trek will adhere to MWI QM, whatever the reason. Period.
The best of trek always relates to current events told in a sci-fi sort of way and based in the future. Bob and Alex… look at our world… terrorism, genocide, economic collapse etc. So, do you think you can make a compelling NEW story that involves terrorists who come from a planet that is committing genocide and threatens the economy of the 24th century (remember, they don’t use money)? How does a fleet of starships combat rogue terrorists… do they have a fleet of ships hidden somewhere you can destroy? Is genocide being done on Uhura’s home world? Do we know who they are… is there a sense of mystery and intrigue? Do they have a superweapon or is their weapon stealth and disguise? Does the federation stoop to their level or does Kirk find a way to overcome “Bush era” tactics and live up to the prime directive? A bio-weapon that destroys the federations food supply and nanites that destroy the replicators causing starvation and chaos?
YOU TELL ME! Food for thought.
#576—”The best of trek always relates to current events told in a sci-fi sort of way and based in the future.”
Actually, I think that can render its value somewhat dated.
For me, Star Trek works best when exploring the human condition—the value of which is timeless.
At a minimum they need to work in Carol Marcus in the next movie. She and Kirk were presumably in love. Kirk presumably abandoned her and David for a career in Starfleet. There’s a lot of drama in that relationship. It would be great if someone told us the backstory.
Also, in the new timeline, Kirk has honorably fought and slain Nero, the destroyer of 47 Klingon vessels. Instead of a prolonged war with the Klingons, perhaps the destruction of Nero could prompt an early peace between the Klingon Empire and the Federation (ex: STNG “Yesterday’s Enterprise). Then Kirk would be revered by the Klingons as a hero. Sadly, this respect for Kirk will ultimately cause the death of Lt. Savik who is chosen for death by the Klingon minion who previously murdered David. This time the minion chooses to kill Savik because he fears the stain on his honor that will result from cowardly attempting to stab in the back the son of Kirk, an honored hero of the Klingon Empire. The death of Lt. Savik removes one more female Vulcan of child bearing age from from “old Spock’s” new colony, thus delaying even further the rebuilding of the Vulcan race. Luckily, this fact no longer matters to old Spock who is locked forever in the mind of Dr. McCoy since there’s no longer any planet Vulcan for Spock to return to and have his mind restored. Consumed by madness, McCoy imbibes on Romulan Ale and eventually dies from a tragic Retnox overdose. The good news is that God eventually wins in the end. Spock’s brother is no longer alive to kill God as Spock’s brother died on Vulcan when Nero turned it into a black hole. The bad news … no more humpbacks.
… I hope this stupidity clearly illustrates the problems that will arise if Khan returns. I miss Khan too and I would definitely shell out ten bucks to see him again. But, nostalgia and profit are not good reasons for destroying a classic film. Anyone remember “The Phantom Menace”?
Do an original story for Pete’s sake.
Was that “for Pete’s sake” or “for pity’s sake”?
587. In the new time line Kirk doesn’t meet Carol Marcus.
Trekwebmaster said: “Now you realize the SHEER GENIUS of those behind ST:XI! Not only did they sucessfully accomplished a great “REBOOT,” they also have liberated the great thing which IS STAR TREK from the same “BOX” that Star Wars is entrenched in.”
On the contrary, they put Star Trek *into* that Star Wars box.
If they use Khan as the villian the movie should premiere in *Cannes!
*(joke only works if you pronounce both words the same way)
However they do it, if they’re going to, they just better not do a weird remake of Space Seed and Wrath of Khan all at once. I want to see the characters cross paths in a different way, or not at all. But i’d prefer to see something new, or something branching off of where the last movie left off.
I’d actually like to see the Enterprise crew run into Kang, Kor, and Koloth. All at once. Hehehe… Maybe have them stuck in some diplomatic mission with the Klingons gone horribly wrong with a young Curzon Dax onboard. Sorry, DS9 fan.
The reusing of characters from previous canon should be done carefully and not too often or you end up with something ridiculous like what i came up with above that would only appeal to a small minority of people. Khan’s ok to do cause he’s an interesting character that has a lot of potential for more than a really good revenge plot.
They have to play to the old and new fans that enjoyed the last movie, while still finding a way to draw in more new fans, so using old characters and old stories may not be the best way to go. Characters maybe, but not stories. They gave us a great ride this year, but they set the bar pretty high for themselves the next time around, so I just hope they can live up to it.
I thought the idea of the reboot was not to redo the original series? Seriously, making a Kahn movie would just be horrible and would clearly show that the writers are not creative enough to develop new villians.
Though the idea of introducing Borg and Q to Captian Kirk is an something that it I find tempting. Perhaps since there are these new singularities in Federation space where Vulcan was located and where Narda was destoryed perhaps this causes Borg to venture to Federation space 80 years earlier.