Leonard Nimoy Talks Future of Star Trek & Spock July 9, 2009
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Nimoy, Star Trek (2009 film), Star Trek sequel (2012) , trackback
Dan Madsen, the founder of the former official Star Trek fan club and Star Trek Communicator Magazine, has an excellent new interview with Spock Prime himself, Leonard Nimoy. The interview covers a lot of ground, including where Nimoy sees himself in the future of the franchise.
Nimoy on Trek’s (& Spock Prime’s) Future
You should go to Starland.com to read the full interview, which covers a lot of ground from the history of Star Trek, to the new feature film and more. Here is just an excerpt on Nimoy’s view of the future of the franchise and his possible involvement.
Dan Madsen: As it stands right now, what do you foresee for the future of Star Trek?
Leonard Nimoy: It is very clear that Paramount is interested in making another Star Trek movie. I think, at least a month ago, they had already authorized a script to be written and that means a financial investment and an expectation that there will be at least a script to look at. My understanding is that it will be written by the same guys, Bob Orci and Alex Kurtzman. They are probably at work on developing a story right now. I think that there is very strong interest in the next Star Trek movie coming from audience and studio alike. Beyond another movie, who knows? The future is wide open.
DM: I assume as well that you are very open minded to appearing as Spock again should they ask you?
LN: I have no illusions on whether or not they need me. They decided that they wanted to make this film using Spock as kind of an anchor for the story, which I think worked very, very well. They don’t have to do that again. If they decide they have a role for me to play I would be very interested in talking to them about it. But I have every reason to believe that they have established a whole new set of characters and they can sail very well without me and that’s fine. Either way is good with me. I am very gratified that this has happened.
More Spock for the Star Trek sequel?
More Spock Prime?
Of course as Trek fans, we always want to see more of Leonard Nimoy as Spock and he was fantastic in this year’s Star Trek. However, there are some issues with using his character in future films. Spock Prime is from the future and he is literally the man who knows too much. He is a walking Deus Ex Machina that could probably solve any crisis with some insight into the characters (lets say they are dealing with Khan again) or with some magical 24th century technology (like the ‘transwarp beaming’ tech he gave Scotty). Star Trek co-writer Roberto Orci has stated here at TrekMovie that Spock Prime will probably adhere to some kind of ‘temporal prime directive’ but if Spock Prime is on the bridge in the middle of a dilemma and the audience knows he has the solution, then you may have a problem.
So, yes it will be great for more Nimoy Spock, but they have to find a way to use him that doesn’t take the drama out of the challenges they face. This new crew needs to come up with their own clever solutions and not go running to Papa Spock every time they are in a jam.
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Awesome!!
Not that I wouldnt luv to see Nimoy in another Trek movie but again since this is an alternate jjverse everything is wide open and may not happen as spock remembers in the prime verse-his help may be no help or even cause problems and interfere with any correct solutions—i think prime spock should be doing what he told spock he would do-help with the Vulcan colony efforts so this verses spock can go out with kirk and the big e on their adventures-
As much as I love Leonard Nimoy, and think he is and always will be the one true Spock, I hope they don’t include him in the next movie. He did a wonderful job handing the baton to the new crew, and now it’s time for them to have exciting adventures of their own.
That said, the fanboy in me would love to see the next movie featuring Spock Prime rescuing Shatner’s Kirk, ending with them disappearing together into the stars.
You’re the man Leonard!
‘We can no longer afford to ignore eachother’
I think it’s pretty certain that if they were include Spock Prime in an upcoming movie it would be a small part involving his involvement in rebuilding the Vulcan race and creating a new home-world with, and for his people.
Easy Solution to this problem…. “the good of the many outweighs the good of the few” Spock Prime should have (once again & according to his nature and character)…. sacrificed himself and destroyed the Narada.. thus elimanting any contamination of the new future…. take it easy on me…. just a thought lol
I wish we could have Spock looking as good as Leonard Nimoy looks. He played Spock too old in “Unification” on Next Generation. He was great in the new film, don’t get me wrong.
What an awesome interview!!! Nimoy is the greatest.
Leonard nimoy Going where trek has gone before = v’ger SOLVED….khan SOLVED…the whale probe SOLVED…
Still that’s way down the liiiiiiiiiine. I want to see khan yell out a ” kiiiiiiiiiiiiiirk, kiiiiiiiiiiirk, while falling off the enterprise at 15000 ft above the earths surface after an incredible hand to hand fight. just throwing it out there.
I think I would like to see Nimoy’s Spock make cameo appearences throughout the on-goaing adventures of this crew. As ambassador for all Vulcans, he could appear in Federation scenes, much like Sarek was present in Star Trek 4 and 6.
well I for one am glad to hear Mr Nimoy isn’t creating aload of hoopla if he’s not going to be in the next one. Unlike someone else I could mention
If they make the next movie about the refugees from the Now distroyed Vulcan, how will they exclude Spock Prime?
Mr. Nimoy, we are once again impressed by your greatness and modesty, before and after ST’09. Live long and prosper… We love you Leonard!
As to seeing Spock Prime in the sequel, I think it would be great, and as a fan I would expect a great send-off for Spock Prime, that would put him in his own time safe and sound, and just maybe, restore the timeline, so everything we’ve come to known and enjoy over the decades is not just some dreamy dust blowing in the wind.
I tried to add this message the first time the story was posted last night before it was taken down.
but hopefully they could use nimoy as spock prime in a role simlar to his appearance in stxi
as was seen this summer he doesnt need a lot of screen time to make a memorable and important impact on the story.
and if nimoy doesnt return for a future trek, dont forget he mind melded with young kirk, so would it be that far of a stretch for some of his memories of the prime universe to know be a part of young kirk.
and said memories could help kirk and crew in encounters with characters such as kahn or others.
“but if Spock Prime is on the bridge in the middle of a dilemma and the audience knows he has the solution, then you may have a problem”
but then again, with clever writing, such a dilemma could add quite some compelling drama to a story or scene….?
Subspace conversation:
SPOCK: So yeah, things are going pretty well. All kinds of new races and shit. You were right about Jim. Knows his way around a bridge that’s for sure. Weird day today, picked up that Khan dude from those 90’s shenannigans. He’s still a bit groggy. Not quite sure what to do with him. So how’s New Vulcan coming along?
SPOCK PRIME: Oh fine, fine. It’s funny because — wait, did you say Khan?
SPOCK: Yeah…
SPOCK PRIME : Latino looking fella? Makes all the women lose their skirts?
SPOCK: (laughs) yeah, he’s a character alright.
SPOCK PRIME: Afterwards, JUST SEND HIM TO PRISON.
SPOCK: What?
SPOCK PRIME: I know it’ll seem like a cool idea to dump him on a planet. Noble and shit, but there lies the way of ear wrigglers and dead sons. Got it?
SPOCK: Whose son? What?
SPOCK PRIME: And if you DO have to ditch him, in 20 years, try and find a more stable individual than that country hick for your Katra will ya? It’s not a bong, it needs to be treated right.
SPOCK: ….?
Spock Prime’s knowledge of the future isn’t story problem, it’s an opportunity. Say he offers to help out with some of the galaxy-threatening “things” that he knocked down in his own universe. So he’s a guest on the Enterprise, kind of an Admiral Emeritus guiding them around so they can wipe out giant amoebas and planet killers with ease.
And they’re in the middle of one of these outings, and Spock Prime says:
“That’s not how it happened last time …”
And he looks worried.
I guarantee you, that one line would send a chill through the theater.
I would’ve thought Starfleet Intelligence would have gone to Spock Prime and squeezed every drop of information out of him. If he wouldn’t have given it willingly, they’d use drug or torture. I mean, c’mon, a guy from 140 years in the future shows up and you ***don’t*** make him spill the beans? That’s just plain silly.
If the timeline is already different, Spock’s knowledge can stop people dying and give the Federation a huge political, economic and military advantage, not to mention preparing for the Borg, the Dominion, trading in the Gamma Quadrant and so on.
No, the only believable thing is that Federation will get what they want out of Spock (unless he kills himself and doesn’t pass on his katra!)
I would argue that Spock really isn’t ‘deus ex machina.’ Or at worst of limited use in that role, given this is an alternate universe that had developed, and will continue to develop, along a different path.
I’m thrilled to see Spock Prime again if he appears because, ‘Hey, here’s our story thus far, and it makes sense for him to do his thing at this point.’ Not so if it’s, ‘Hey, let’s find a way to plug Leonard Nimoy (or William Shatner) into the next movie.’ I think Bob Orci has said many times that including any particular character or situation has to make sense, to evolve naturally and be integral to the story. Completely agree with his perspective.
He could just scribble down a notebook and give it to KIrk before he sets off:
EDGE OF GALAXY: if you MUST try to cross it – and why bother? there’s nothing out there – that’s why it’s called the edge of the galaxy – then kill anyone who gets glittery eyes ASAP. And take a lot of spare gear because Delta Vega isn’t where it used to be.
BIG PING PONG BALL SHIP: Don’t let him bluff you. It’s just one of those testing-mankind things. You’ll get that a lot (see appendix A).
TALOS 4: Don’t go there. I mean literally.
JANUS 6: The round things are eggs. Actually just call ahead and tell them that now.
GOTHOS: The fop is just a kid. Let him play with you for a bit then go outside and call for his parents.
TRANSPORTER MALFUNCTIONS: If anyone falls over and gets covered in odd radioactive ore while on a geological mission, beam them down a change of clothes before beaming them up again. Failing that, don’t forget you have *shuttlecraft*.
Etc.
Anyone want to keep the ball rolling here? :-)
Sorry but no Spock in the next one. Made sense in this movie, but that, to me, is like if they had thrown more of the TOS crew in First Contact, wouldnt have worked. Time for this crew to make it on their own and I think they’ll do just fine.
the transwarp beaming solution while interesting was a big stretch for me, even in the 24th Century they could not do that and in Best of Both Worlds the Enterprise had to match warp speed with the Borg Cube to beam on board at warp.
Doesn’t ruin the film but it was a big Deus Ex machina.
21
So Kirk and crew would have no adventures if he did that
Im kidding before anyone gets gets defensive or pro Abrams on me
#19
I think the whole point of Star Trek is that humanity has evolved beyond that kind of paranoid, preemptive strike, behavior. Starfleet people deal with situations as they happen because they are confident that they can solve them. They do not live in fear.
You have to remember that Kirk is not 100% sure about the Time Travel thing at that stage of mind. The Mind Meld may have placed hints, but that is another topic that he is not 100% on. Even though he has been at the other end of these events. Who’s to say that if these thoughts pop up in his head, he may only see them as minor fantasy ideas. Or in Bone’s words those ideas are poppycock and just forget about them. Things may turn out the way Kirk wants but is that not idea’s based on Kirk’s Alpha malehood command and control.
Kirk with Spock Prime’s foreknowledge of things start bringing in the Conspiracy kooks and changes the unknon into boredom.
#12 – Did you poke wasps’ nests a lot when you were a kid?
At first I thought about something for Spock Prime like Janeway in Nemesis. Show him in a private conversation with New Spock or so, show that they are close. But then I thought a scene like this wouldn’t do justice to this greatness, history and achievements.
So either there’s a dramatic reason for his inclusion or not. If he has nothing to add to the story, leave him out. There’ll be other films. :) Or maybe only show a personal item of Spock Prime from the original timeline in New Spock’s quarters on the Enterprise.
I’d love to see Nimoy on the bridge again!
amd Shatner standing next to him :)
As much as I love Leonard Nimoy…I would prefer to see him as Paris in the new MI movie…It would be an unfair advantage for the new crew..though many loose ends could be tied up without much discussion…I would personally hate that concept..I love to see the interaction of the crew figure out to solution…not have a go to guy who already knows the answers…. though this new timeline doesn’t guarantee events happen as they did before….
And wouldn’t that chap Shat to see Nimoy in another movie…he is not in!
Spock should go on to start the new Vulcan colony and be done with it.
What if Prime Spock had a death scene in the next movie? I think it would be the first time in history the same actor had a death scene for the same character in 2 different movies (especially 29 years apart)
With regards to Spock Prime knowing solutions to problems already encountered:
I do not think he would know. To quote alternate Spock:
‘Nero’s very presence has altered the flow of history, beggining with the attack on the U.S.S Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, setting into motion an entirely new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.’
The key words: ‘cannot be anticipated by either party.’
That was the whole idea of setting it in the alternate universe wasn’t it? To wipe the slate clean, as they say.
And if QUINTO GETS TO COCKY we get PAPA SPOCK on the ENTERPRISE!!! OH GAWD lets start the CAMPAIGN PAPA SPOCK FOR PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERATION! Now THAT would be interesting!
Nimoy on the Bridge and then on the seat of the Presidency!
They still need to get him and Shat together once more if only for a two minute scene.
Last chance.
Not to get too techie here – but something DID happen to the timeline after Nero popped up to make the Federation slightly ahead of itself in technology. According to the timeline, STXI takes place, what, eight years, before the original series, and the Enterprise is a more powerful ship with hints of the movie design features. Maybe Spock popped in early, dropped off some design docs to give the Federation more of an edge, and then popped out again.
I just love the fact that he’s classy and secure enough to say, “eh, they probably don’t need me; if they happen to have any ideas they can run it by me and if it’s got any merit I’ll think about it”.
two words:
Class.
Act.
What is next?
The Next Generation, Mirror Universe, Energy Ribbons?
I thingk Spock LN Prime should realize that he is in an alternate reality dimension from his own. Not just a changed time line. Not just new actors but different actual people-main characters. This way the old trek time line is in tact and missing Spock LN.
Then anything could happen and old things will be brand new.
LN Spock could only warn of powers and attitude and not of specific predicable past.
Otherwise with or without LN Spock Prime it will be the same thing all over again.
What else could be different in the Classic time line of ST?
The Enterprise missions would have to be in space and at planets where other ships were sent in the Prime time line. Another ship would be assigned the Enterprise’s old time line adventures and the New Crew would get to do adventures of other ships from the old time line-hence new characters, aliens, ships, etc. Instead of the Enterprise doing the 5 year mission where they went to past time line a different ship would get those missions in that space/stars. The Enterprise would goto places where other ships went in the regular time line.!!!!!!!!! A different 5 year mission would exist.
If the goal is to be free and open minded new…then that is the only non re-run repeating stuck in the clutter of 40 years of Star Trek
Eh?
Simple and *dramatic* way to have Nimoy’s Spock Prime in the new film:
Kidnapped by Klingons.
Klingon agents learn that he’s from the future, kidnap him and try to extract information that will give them a huge advantage over the Federation and the Romulans. It’s up to “new” Kirk & Spock to rescue him, possibly facing down an entire Klingon fleet.
About resistance to the mind sifter like in “Errand of Mercy”…he is older, and possibly not as strong mentally (as in able to resist) as he used to be.
Spock prime and alternate are the only two aspects which make the JJverse remotely enjoyable to me.
I don’t care if Spock prime may have “all the answers” Leonard Nimoy in a “Star Trek” film (or any other film for that matter) is ALWAYS a good thing… Just don’t kill the character off.
P.S. Now they have to find a way to get the Shat involved.
Perhaps Spock will develop Bendii’s Syndrome, like his dad.
Is it a heridiatary disease?
That is a perfect solution to the Spock Prime dilemma and could create some interesting drama.
Spock Prime is losing his mind; and the answers to 140 years of crises are locked within his deteriorating mind.
It would make for an interesting time for both Spock Prime and the new crew. The new crew has no choice but to face all the great challenges by themselves, or at the very least, us the spurious advice of a senile Vulcan.
And new Spock has to deal with the knowledge that he’ll end up losing his mind in 140 years.
No one wants to see Spock go through this, but I think it has a lot of potential, both as a dramatic device, and as an opportunity to see how Nimoy would approach the role of a mind-sick Spock after so long.
Tholinahata #3
“That said, the fanboy in me would love to see the next movie featuring Spock Prime rescuing Shatner’s Kirk, ending with them disappearing together into the stars”
Couldn’t agree more.
BOB ORCI… IF YOU ARE OUT THERE THIS WOULD BE A GREAT WAY TO END THE ORIGINAL ERA OF ST.
I disagree.
The whole timeline has changed, therefore no events other than time specific ones (V’Ger, Whale Probe) will play out as before.
Spock Prime simply telling them how to avoid a problem could indeed cause one. As soon as you interupt a chain of events by doing something different at first base; second, third and fourth base become unpredictable and things happen different. It’s a butterfly effect.
He could actually make things worse by telling them to avoid the Botany Bay… another ship, another species may discover them and bring on a new nightmare for the feds.
MR. ORCI, Mr, Kurtzman, CHECK THIS OUT!!!! Here’s a plot Star Trek writers. After losing 48 ships to a Romulan vessel from the future, the Klingon’s launch an attack against the Romulan Empire, causing an all out war which spreads into uncharted parts of the Galaxy. The Romulans, who are getting the sh%t kicked out of them suddenly come across a floating Earth ship, SS Botany Bay. Make a long story short, Khan takes over the Romulan ship, makes a deal to help the Romulan Empire to defeat the Klingons, thus destabilizing the balance of power in the galaxy, which causes Star Fleet with information from Spock prime to send in the Enterprise to kill Khan before he becomes even more powerful. Oscar if you would please, i’m available for further consultation, hehe.
[...] Read the article here? [...]
The bridge has been crossed with Spock “bridging” the generations… time to move on. I posted this earlier, but was the last one… so if Bob and Alex are really reading this, here it is again…
The best of trek always relates to current events told in a sci-fi sort of way and based in the future. Bob and Alex… look at our world… terrorism, genocide, economic collapse etc. So, do you think you can make a compelling NEW story that involves terrorists who come from a planet that is committing genocide and threatens the economy of the 24th century (remember, they don’t use money)? How does a fleet of starships combat rogue terrorists… do they have a fleet of ships hidden somewhere you can destroy? Is genocide being done on Uhura’s home world? Do we know who they are… is there a sense of mystery and intrigue? Do they have a superweapon or is their weapon stealth and disguise? Does the federation stoop to their level or does Kirk find a way to overcome “Bush era” tactics and live up to the prime directive? A bio-weapon that destroys the federations food supply and nanites that destroy the replicators causing starvation and chaos?
YOU TELL ME! Food for thought.
Anthony – “lets say they are dealing with Khan again”
No. Let’s not.
It is a parallel timeline, they can do whatever as long as the original timeline we all love is still intact, which it is
We will never see Leonard Nimoy as Spock again.
I also would prefer not to see Leonard Nimoy as Spock again in the movies. Star Trek 09 was a wonderful farewell. Any more appearances would take away from the development of Quinto’s Spock.
Did you guys see this thing about Leonard Nimoy’s lips being CGI during the cave scene? I was wondering if that explained why he looked odd.
“Nimoy’s mouth was reanimated in his first scene with Kirk following a rerecording session. The filmmakers had filmed Nimoy when he rerecorded his lines so they could rotoscope his mouth into the film, even recreating the lighting conditions, but they realized they had to digitally recreate his lips because of the bouncing light created by the camp fire.” — Wikipedia
I wonder if Bob Orci can explain the story behind this? Were there last-minute plot alterations?
52
Seriously?
How about we get a rescue mission from the Prime universe. Data and Geordi figure out how to create a anomoly to cross over to the JJverse and bring Spock Prime home.
Excellent idea #18.
The temporal prime directive is a bad idea. There is no way old Spock is going to sit back and let Earth be destroyed by V’Ger or the Whale probe, just for two examples. It makes more sense that he would help where possible.
His future knowledge is an opportunity for great new stories. Writers, please don’t act like it doesn’t exist.
I don’t think I saw any posts above with the thought that the alternate reality Spock might try to or want to mindmeld with Spock Prime as a device to learn all that Spock Prime knows. That’s a trip, Spock mindmelding with himself.
I don’t want to see Spock Prime die, so I hope they don’t use Sarak’s disease as a way to kill Spock.
It would be great to see Spock Prime again, I see him potentially acting like Yoda. He’s very wise and knows much. If Starfleet were to come asking about some guy named Khan, he could simply say, “hmmm, difficult to see. Much anger in him….” things like that.
I think seeing Spock Prime should only be done again if it helps the story of the movie.
Yes to seeing more of Obi Spock Kenobi
Q: “What is your proudest moment associated with Star Trek?”
A: “My friendship with Bill Shatner is very important to me. We are still very close friends. We still see each other and I feel very warmly towards all of the actors that are still with us. I really do. I love them all – Nichelle and George and Walter. I care about them.”
:-)
To anyone who didn’t read the full article, do so! Some great stuff in there, such as how Nimoy improvised his last line in the new movie, “Thrusters on full.”
I would like to see Nimoy’s Spock again, just as I would like to see Shatner’s Kirk again. If possible. We owe these men so much. They have given us so much in terms of entertainment and imagination over such a long time. New moments with them are precious things. Sentimental, yes, but it’s how I feel. Very soon it will be too late.
43. I second the motion.
@ 61, 43 – It’s the right ending to the original TOS. Kirk rescues Spock again. ”You can back for me.” ”You did the same for me..”
#s 43 and 60 … I agree 100%.
I am a great fan of Leonard Nimoy, but I can’t say I believe it is absolutely necessary to have him be in the next film. I would, however, say that his knowledge of Star Trek, and his intelligent approach to story-telling and film-making is an invaluable asset which the Supreme Court should absolutely take advantage of.
#6—”Spock Prime should have…. sacrificed himself and destroyed the Narada.. thus elimanting any contamination of the new future…. take it easy on me…”
Actually, there was quite a bit of speculation for some time that this is exactly what was going to happen. As you say, it certainly would have precluded his presence in the altered timeline ever creating such a story problem.
#19—”If the timeline is already different, Spock’s knowledge can stop people dying and give the Federation a huge political, economic and military advantage, not to mention preparing for the Borg, the Dominion, trading in the Gamma Quadrant and so on.”
I feel the problem with that is that it would be akin to a parent providing everything necessary for a child to succeed, without ever requiring the child to work for it. That begs the legitimate question as to whether the parent is actually contributing to the child’s development…or hindering it.
#33— This is the actual quote:
“…Nero’s very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party….Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.”
While he is correct as that applies to certain events, it does not account for events which were set in motion prior to Nero’s appearance and the attack upon the USS Kelvin.
For example, the changes to the timeline caused by Nero’s interference with the flow of history would not likely affect the following:
1) The appearance of the “Doomsday Machine” in the L-370 system in 2267;
2) The launch of the SS Botany Bay from Earth in 1996;
3) V’Ger’s effort to find its creator in the 3rd planet of the Sol system;
4) The Probe looking for the reason it lost contact with humpback whales after their extinction in the 21st century;
5) The construction and launch of the “Nomad” probe in 2002, as well as the accident which caused its malfunction
@ 65 Ooooh. Doomsday machines on the big screen. That’s more appealing than Khan.
There are other things, of course. Redjac for example. Vaal. Landru. Sigma Iotis.
The alterations to history do mean, though, that they can go to Nimoy-Spock for advice and he tells them ”Events are not unfolding as I recall them. Any information I give you may be useless. Or worse.”
3. Tholianhata – July 9, 2009
That said, the fanboy in me would love to see the next movie featuring Spock Prime rescuing Shatner’s Kirk, ending with them disappearing together into the stars.
—————
Oh yes, yes, you took the words right out of my mouth!
Kirk and Spock are both legendary heroes of this fandom, their friendship was the emotional heart of the original Trek, and they deserve a great send-off, a fitting farewell.
I agree with Nimoy (guys read the entire article, it’s worth it!) that the way both Kirk and Spock were dropped from the mythology was a disgrace.
Well, Spock did get good moments in Unification but it was no way a closure he deserved. And don’t even make me start on Kirk…
And also, can’t agree enough with this:
——————
36. Dr. Image – July 10, 2009
They still need to get him and Shat together once more if only for a two minute scene.
Last chance.
——————-
LAST CHANCE!
Yes! How long Shatner and Nimoy will be around and able to act in the movies? We all wish them to live long and prosper, but let’s be realistic.
Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have a unique chance to give those living legends a proper farewell, a fitting tribute, in their movies.
After all Kirk and Spock have been through, they deserve peacefull and bittersweet ending – not as huge as Sam and Frodo going to Undying Lands etc. but just a good ending which makes us cry good kind of tears.
Not to use such a chance would be a shame!
And I bet Shatner would agree to be in the movie if he and Nimoy would play similar roles – cameos of equal importance.
21:
STATION K-7: The cocky young prick that is assistant to the a**hole in charge… he’s a Klingon. And don’t let the tribbles do it.
OMICRON CETI III: DO NOT SNIFF THE FLOWERS!!!! And as soon as you see a colonist, punch him/her in the nose… or call them a douchebag… either one. Wait… on second thought forget all of that. I’ve got a pretty good shot at getting laid there. Don’t tell Uhura.
PSI 2000: DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING!!! And if you do beam Lt Riley into space as soon as you get back. In fact beam him into space right now. Nothing but trouble that kid.
You guys are all totally off the mark. With both Spock Prime and New Spock available, this makes a GREAT opportunity for a new “Spock’s Brain!”
I would like to see Nimoy again.
Spock Prime is a very ethical person, and has lived for on Romulus for decades. He’s probably the one in the Federation who knows the Romulans best (especially in the 23rd century). Wouldn’t it be logical for him to try to warn the Romulans (”There will be a Great Disaster in 129 years. You better start relocating your population …”) ?
But how would the Romulans like that? The Federation? The Vulcans?
Lots of plot points here for ST11: The Search for Spock Prime.
But there is a BUT: Leonard Nimoy is in great health and shape for his age (may he live really long and prosper!), but nobody, not even Nimoy himself, can absolutely guarantee that it will be possible for him to play a MAJOR part in a movie in 1 or 2 years (because acting is WORK, and can be physically exhausting).
So, I think we would have to settle for the “Janeway in Nemesis” model somebody already mentioned: one or two scenes where the crew contacts him and he gives them advice, Yoda-style (with proper grammar, of course) or info.
Or maybe a fan-teaser at the very end: We see Spock Prime in his house on New Vulcan, drinking tea with a visitor who has just told him about the adventure the Enterprise crew had in the movie.
Spock Prime: “In my time, this happened differently … The crew performed admirably, but all of you still have to learn – but I’m sure you will get there, because I have the utmost trust in you, my friend.”
And then we see that his visitor is neither Kirk nor Young Spock, but McCoy.
#70—” Wouldn’t it be logical for him to try to warn the Romulans (”There will be a Great Disaster in 129 years(?)”
Is it logical to assume that they would believe him?
I’m sure they can figure out a way to put him in the next one and make it feel right.
The temporal prime directive is mute, unless the creators concede that this is the same timeline and same universe.
The temporal prime directive is in place to protect an already established future. The future of this universe never happened. There’s nothing to protect. This timeline is brand new according to Orci and the MW theory.
#71 “Is it logical to assume that they would believe him?”
Indeed not, most of the Romulan leaders would say: “Who does that Vulcan geezer think he is? Must be a spy!”
But for Spock Prime, it would be logical to try anyway.
So, there would be conflict, which is what movies need.
But for obvious reasons, this is probably all theoretical and won’t be done in a movie (but maybe in print: a novel or comics about “The further adventures of Spock Prime” would be good).
#73—”The temporal prime directive is (moot), unless the creators concede that this is the same timeline and same universe.”
Agreed. However, I think the point was meant to suggest that Spock Prime would be inclined to withhold future knowledge on similar moral grounds.
(And it should be noted that, despite Orci’s offscreen commentary on MWI/QM, there is nothing within the film itself which suggests that this treatment of time travel is in any way different from the more than 50 previous canon entries on the matter)
I think there is quite a difference between Spock Prime providing such knowledge for the purposes of restoring an advantage that would otherwise (in the Prime timeline) have been there—and doing so in order to create an advantage that never existed.
I think that is the difference between emparting future knowledge in order to get Kirk back aboard the Enterprise and the notion of Spock Prime advising his young friends to avoid certain specific people and things, or even to deal with them in a specific manner. I’m not sure he would be doing them any favors by trying to eliminate every obstacle for which he has advanced knowledge. After all, it is our bumps and bruises which mold us into who we are—at least as much as anything else.
“After all, it is our bumps and bruises which mold us into who we are”
Yes, so I have heard in Star Trek V.
Just end all this speculation about what SpockPrime warns anyone about, and make the next movie like this:
SpockPrime travelling from planet to planet warning everyone about everything, and nobody listening. Then he finds a planet all his own, becomes a bitter old hermit and constantly mutters “I told you so” to himself whenever he watches subspace CNN.
32–I think killing Spock Prime would upset fans too much. It would be a major “F U” to long time fans and send a message that I don’t think Abrams would intend to send or even think of sending. There are fans that interpreted a 1960s car driving off a cliff as Abrams telling the world that the 1960s series was being thrown off a cliff.
Killing Spock Prime would be terrible. I’d rather never see Nimoy in the role again than see that happen. At least as is, Spock Prime has a purpose. If they actually WANT to use Shatner in the next film, it should be something that involves Spock Prime, and DON’T KILL ANYONE.
I actually think killing main characters is lazy and serves no purpose other than to make long time fans angry.
#77—Yes, even our turds represent a part of who we are…:)
Find a way to send him back to his own time in the prime universe and let us have a short glimpse of it.
#6 Ron Solo – July 9, 2009
Easy Solution to this problem…. “the good of the many outweighs the good of the few” Spock Prime should have (once again & according to his nature and character)…. sacrificed himself and destroyed the Narada.. thus elimanting any contamination of the new future…. take it easy on me…. just a thought lol
*************************
I think this is how Berman and Braga would have ended the film. Yet another classic character they would have relished killing off….
Nimoy said: “But I have every reason to believe that they have established a whole new set of characters and they can sail very well without me and that’s fine. Either way is good with me. I am very gratified that this has happened. ”
Compare that to the Shat’s attitude and behavior lately. Nimoy is really a wonderful man. Shatner, not so much.
#79—”Killing Spock Prime would be terrible. I’d rather never see Nimoy in the role again than see that happen. At least as is, Spock Prime has a purpose… I actually think killing main characters is lazy and serves no purpose other than to make long time fans angry.”
I don’t think it is fair to suggest that it could serve no other purpose. After all, it is clear that doing so in ST09 would have precluded Spock Prime’s knowledge of the future from ever being a story problem. I certainly wouldn’t call “tying up a loose end” lazy.
With that said, I’m glad they didn’t. And I personally don’t need them to explain to me why Spock Prime wouldn’t use his knowledge of the future to create an advantage for them going forward, as I would never expect him to make that choice at all.
PRIME SPOCK MUST DIE
Again.
Seriously, temporal prime directive? Doesn’t apply anymore using MWI QM.
The only way to eliminate Spock’s involvement is to truly come up with an original story that never happened in the Prime Universe, so Prime Spock would have no knowledge which would be of any benefit to the Enterprise.
In fact a scene where they talk to PS via subspace about the problem and have him tell Kirk & Spock that never happened in his timeline would be fantastic!
But the best thing to do is kill him off and do it so that it just happens – Kirk & Spock are informed about it. No weepy emotional goodbye scenes, we’ve already done that. Just get rid of him for good.
But I’m not worried, these guys don’t seem to make mountains out of molehills or hold anything as a sacred cow. Spock’s mother simply fell away and life went on, without so much as a pause to morn her. They blew up Vulcan and kept going. They didn’t even mention the loss of their chief engineer and medical officers. PS should be no different.
NOOOOOO!!!!!!
Trek is not playing at my local theater anymore. I saw it four times but wanted to go for five.
Hurry up Blu-Ray…
83–Nimoy was treated like royalty by Abrams and crew. Shatner was treated like garbage. It’s a bit unfair to compare the attitudes, and Shatner has never bashed the current movie. He’s never been anything but nice about it, and he’s the only one who told the truth the entire time.
He has been unhappy as to how he was treated, and who could blame him?
I think #3 has the right idea. Bring in Shatner, bring in Nimoy, have a great story with them and the Pine crew, save Kirk Prime, and have Kirk Prime and Spock Prime ride off into the sunset, alive and well, onto the next great adventure, again, ALIVE AND WELL, and then beginning in movie 3, never see them again. Would love to see it, but don’t believe it will happen.
I love Leonard Nimoy, and it was great to see him in the latest installment. But I believe that he should be left out of the next one. Give the current crew their chance to shine. And then later on, maybe bring him back for a final time in a future installment. That’s my take on it.
God bless!
#85—”Spock’s mother simply fell away and life went on, without so much as a pause to (mourn) her.They blew up Vulcan and kept going.”
No…but Spock did have an emotional meltdown on the bridge, and subsequently shared a moment with Sarek (which was obviously a reaction on the parts of both of them to the extraordinary loss) that he would never have shared in the Prime timeline.
Personally, I think that was worth a helluva lot more than any “moment of silence” for Amanda Grayson or Vulcan. Besides, they had a villain to stop…who happened to be on his way to Earth at the time.
“The only way to eliminate Spock’s involvement is to truly come up with an original story that never happened in the Prime Universe, so Prime Spock would have no knowledge which would be of any benefit to the Enterprise.”
Or just have Spock Prime explain why he chooses not to empart with such knowledge—-as doing so would be akin to a parent providing everything necessary for a child to succeed, without ever requiring the child to work for it. That begs the legitimate question as to whether the parent is actually contributing to the child’s development…or hindering it.
… as much as I adore Leonard Nimoy it may be time for the new cast to sail on their own.
#87—”…and Shatner has never bashed the current movie. He’s never been anything but nice about it…”
Except when he repeatedly referred to his lack of involvement in it as “a bad business decision”, “a poor business decision”, a “foolish business decision”, or a “stupid business decision”—-and according to The Hollywood Reporter, when he said “I hope that movie bombs.”
But other than that, yeah, I suppose he was pretty nice about it.
As for criticising the finished product, it would be pretty difficult to do so without actually having seen it….
“…and he’s the only one who told the truth the entire time.”
Based upon what? What reason do we have to believe that any one of the filmmakers was ever dishonest about their desire to find a way to include him in the story—especially since the writers themselves apparently actually wrote such a scene?
Your comment is completely unsubstantiated, IMO.
Shatner chose to make his feelings on the matter quite public, and to do so on multiple occasions. He wasn’t forced to do that, nor is he immune to criticism for that by some of the fans.
He isn’t complaining about that. Neither should you.
I see Spock helping found the new Vulcan and just fading away into the sunset per se.
Here’s something to think about–there is absolutely no support in this movie that the prime timeline exists. No matter what the writers SAY, they did NOT put anything in the movie to back up their claims, and Trek’s historic treatment of time travel flat out shows that if you travel back in time and change something, you wipe out the future.
They did a lot of stuff in this movie that would alter the future. I would love to see the next movie deal with the consequences of Nero’s action and Spock Prime’s inaction in changing things. Maybe Spock’s mom saved someone’s life that now died because she wasn’t around to save that life. Maybe that person in turn saved MANY lives. Think It’s A Wonderful Life. George wasn’t born, so he didn’t save Harry’s life, and Harry didn’t save the life of all those people in the war.
Maybe the prime timeline, which we know works out pretty well for the Federation, MUST exist and without it, there are dire consequences. Something to think about in a SEQUEL, and such a story COULD have both Shatner AND Nimoy.
OR–
Let’s say Abrams and company really just want to shut people up and prove that the prime universe does still exist. Give Spock Prime a cameo, and send his ass home where we know he’s ok, the prime universe exists, and get on with the movie.
One idea has the potential to be a good movie.
The other will be a short scene that may lead into the action of whatever they decide to do next. It also gets rid of Spock Prime happily and quickly, without killing him while saying, “SEE–WE TOLD YOU THE PRIME UNIVERSE STILL EXISTS.”
#92—”I see Spock helping found the new Vulcan and just fading away into the sunset per se.”
I think that is very likely.
#91 “and according to The Hollywood Reporter, when he said ‘I hope that movie bombs.’”
Uh-uh-uh. I debunked that one a long time ago. He never said that.
In the interests of balance shatner repeatedly stated that jj was a wonderful film maker and he was sure it would be a wonderful movie. He never once attacked the film.
In fact when nearly the whole of fandom were slagging off the design of the new enterprise, shatner made a video saying how much he liked it. He’s been more kind about a movie he’s not seen than a lot of trek fans have before and after viewing.
I still agree that there is nothing in this film that clearly states that there is a prime universe and it’s unaffected. Spock prime clearly addresses everyone as their younger selves and not alternative counterparts as in a multiverse.
#96 “In the interests of balance shatner repeatedly stated that jj was a wonderful film maker and he was sure it would be a wonderful movie.”
Very true.
Shatner’s lack of involvement WAS a bad business decision, and Shatner never said he hoped the movie bombed. As for trying to get someone in the movie, not talking to them at all is hardly a desperate attempt. Shatner was the only one who, from the get go, told the truth about his lack of involvement. Shatner has always talked about the movie in a positive light.
And I agree with 96 that the movie does far more to show the prime universe is gone than not. If the producers really intend for the thing to still exist, prove it in Trek 12.
I hope they don’t start pulling in the original cast for cameos. I do NOT want to see 80 year old Prime Kirk. It worked with Spock, since we know he lived to be very old, and it makes sense that he would grow into a sagely kind of character. But Kirk? Hell no. Kirk died in Generations, a bit past his prime but stilll able to do a couple of decent shoulder rolls. Kirk’s character should never live to be truly old. He’s just not that kind of character. And besides, bringing in old cameos defeats the entire purpose and success of this reboot. We respect the original cast, I’ll always consider TOS the foundation, but let’s get on with it and see what this new cast can do.
The fact the prime spock is still running around proves its an alternate reality, if they pulled the other theories on time travel then he would have done the marty mcFly and simply vanished after Vulcan was blow to hell.
They have a huge mmorpg coming out soon, that’s set in the prime universe they don’t want to lose money with Oh guess what that universe doesn’t exist any more.
The simplest and what would have been awesome, imo, for people to see the prime universe Enterprise E around the black hole that sucked Spock in and quoting like something from the comic about farewell spock, then show the Enterprise E warping away and that everything is still there.
@ 85 Can PRIME SPOCK MUST DIE be followed by PRIME SPOCK MESSIAH? : )
@ Closettreker. Agree entirely that the movie does not state outright that the ”prime timeline” still exists. I don’t mind (personally) whether it does or not but I think we can take Orci’s word for it that that is/was their intention and maybe this can be made clearer next time.
I too thought the ‘moment’ between Sarek and Spock in the transporter room was splendid.
Though I will say that Star Trek in all its series and movies combined with the times they have go to other dimension, universes, realities, and so forth it get kinda basicly a simple “what the F##$!!!??”"
What does bother me about alternate realities is whether they be real or not, why should I care that this Vulcan was blown to hell when their could be billions if not trillions in other realities with Vulcan in them? Yeah sure it upsets me that 6 billions where killed but by law of average if their are a lot of other universes etrc its pretty much guaranteed that some vulcans will not survive, same with earth etc.
Leonard Nimoy for president. Of the earth. Not in Trek. In reality. :)
We didn’t get to see Spock prime on the Enterprise, surely his character would be busting to get a bit of that action again.
I don’t know that there is really a need to explain EVERYTHING, relative to Spock Prime… I know some people won’t be happy until his continued existence in the new time-line is addressed, but my attitude is: let’s move on.
Star Trek is a fabulous work of fiction, so it does not require the same sort of scientific examination the real world goes through.
Let’s have a new film, of these “new” characters, in their “new” world, sit back and enjoy the ride………………………………..
The Prime Timeline doesn’t exist. Neither does the new one. It’s FICTION.
But if we’re going to split hairs. The writers don’t have to prove A THING. They say something is so then it is so. This is what happens when you write FICTION. I ask all of you who keep going on and on about this to realize that this IS NOT real and it should be treated as the piece of FICTION that it is. It’s just a bit of fun that hardcore “fans” ruin for others because of crap like this. So please either change your tune or, if that isn’t possibly, seek therapy or psychiatric help to help make you realize it.
Yes Anthony you’re right, this new crew does need to come up with ‘clever’ solutions to things. In the new movie I saw no sign of this. I would like to see the new James T. Kirk be more resourceful and clever instead of the barefisted approach. Maybe alternate universe Kirk missing out on being on Tarsus IV has killed off his resourcefulness before it began.
The destruction of a founding federation world coupled with the continuing existence of Romulus, stronger than it would otherwise have been, will lead to political situations completely alien to Spock Prime. He’ll have one or two ideas but, lets not forget the fact that Nero’s ship hung around the alternate universe for 25 years before being blown to bits by the 1701 and the black hole. So, who’s to say his technology wasn’t caught up with by other races who have advanced as a result? the klingons held Nero at Rura Penthe (deleted scenes) – and they seem to have chopped his ear off and left a big scar in the side of his head – I wonder what they discovered? Are any of the Narada crew still knocking around causing mischief? Put in one or two familiar names from the old series, or even same names, but have them wildly changed by the alternate universe timeline, and you have the makings of a perfect sequel with Spock Prime being utterly unable to guess what the new character would do…
Forget Khan or any of those other classic villians – go somewhere new with things – Khan can re-appear some other time if he’s needed… perhaps the Romulans can pick him up instead of Kirk – and perhaps he becomes the Shinzon of his time, a human at the head of the Romulan senate.
There are so many possibilities. No point going back to old trek after establishing such a wonderfully exciting new trek to explore.
Let them boldly go where no one has gone before!
And why are people dissing the new crew’s lack of ideas/cleverness?
Kirk and Uhura warn Pike of the attach in Vulcan, without which he hadn#t figured it out.
Chekov is a gravitational genius compensating G-forces to beam people falling in the Vulcan sky and was able to think up the idea of going via Saturn to shield the 1701 from Narada.
Scotty ejected the warp core to save them.
Spock and Kirk together used their collective best energies and will to save the Earth.
McCoy manages to smuggle Kirk onto the Enterprise.
Sulu is a bad-ass who saves Kirk’s life with a katana.
Spock Prime had nada to do with any of this! He only beamed Kirk and Scotty up and referred Kirk to a regulation about being emotionally compromised…
Also, whoever is upset about multiple universes in Trek somehow diluting it, I’m afraid TNG already did this – see “Parallels” where towards the end 285,000 Enterprise D’s appeared!
Spock Prime can exist because he is a cross-over from the Prime Universe, not a product of the Alternate Universe. Both co-exist just as the mirror universe (the one with the surplus goatee beards) does.
And, there is BOUND to be some kind of space-time rip as a result of the black holes which connects both future Prime Universe and the TOS Alternate Universe… allowing for future cross overs.
Jas out.
#98—”As for trying to get someone in the movie, not talking to them at all is hardly a desperate attempt.”
But they never said they were trying desperately to convince him to do it, so not personally talking to him about it after the initial meeting doesn’t indicate anything at all. He had already indicated his interest. What they claimed to be “desperately attempting” to do was finding a way to work his character into the story—and there is no reason to believe that their desire was not sincere.
Your suggestion that they were at all dishonest is speculative.
“Shatner was the only one who, from the get go, told the truth about his lack of involvement. ”
Again, where are the lies told by the other parties? You have no basis for that, beyond your own reckless speculation.
“Shatner has always talked about the movie in a positive light. ”
Once again—except when referring to the decision to leave him out of it as a “a bad business decision”, “a poor business decision”, a “foolish business decision”, or a “stupid business decision”.
I take SFP’s word that the other comment was later debunked.
As a businessman myself, I would not consider those kinds of comments made about my decision-making as being in any “positive light”, much less “nice” (as you said before).
There is no question that he later cooled off with some of those comments, and did praise the director’s talents, etc. But let’s not get carried away. He most certainly was *not* always nice about it, and most certainly did *not* always talk about it in a positive light.
“Shatner’s lack of involvement WAS a bad business decision”
You can have that opinion, and he certainly did (at least at one time) as well. However, there is no way to either prove or disprove the notion that Shatner’s presence in the film would have been finanially better, worse, or just about the same.
Let’s face it. Bill Shatner is somewhat polarizing. The man has alot of fans—but he also has alot of people who just cannot stand him. I don’t think that had anything to do with his absence from ST09, but I think it is an incredible stretch to suggest that putting him in the film would have automatically been a better business decision.
@110 I hope your not referring to me at all but it reads like you are. I never once said it diluted anything, that it simply gets overwhelming and who is to say what the heck the main prime universe is. In fact that episode you act like I have never seen was in my mind the entire type I was typing that.
Oh and people doing this whole “omg its not real get a life” just piss off. No really piss off. We ALL know this isn’t real. We are debating fiction which is ok. People like us try to make sense of things whether they be real or not. We like things that you know most people don’t seem to like any more, plots, long arching storyline so forth.
Shatner is great. But his whining about the new movie was just so childish. He wanted them to bring him back to life and have the movie be about him again. He didn’t want to do the hologram cameo, which would have been a great scene – he’s just a blatant self-promotionalist – he cares more about himself than the story, if they’d appeased him it would have led to a lousy movie being made. Give it a rest, Bill!
SciFiFan, chill, man. It’s a friendly debate, not anything worth getting truly upset about! I love trek. I think this movie did the whole legacy proud and saved the franchise. It was dead on its ass without this reinvigoration. Which is why I defend it and think its great.
Anyhoo, we can agree to disagree. I’m off for beers with a mate!
Captain J
112
For those who can’t get over the fact that its fiction…piss off. No really just piss off. Instead of letting people be entertained by a work of fiction, people who are deluded into thinking its real under the guise of “debating” it just so you can look like some sort of intellectual bad ass ruin it for everyone else.
If you think what I just read is ridiculous, so was the last paragraph of your post.
read = wrote
read = wrote
113
Couldn’t agree more.
#110—” …there is BOUND to be some kind of space-time rip as a result of the black holes which connects both future Prime Universe and the TOS Alternate Universe… allowing for future cross overs. ”
Actually, the way I understand it—-MWI does not allow for communication (much less any “cross-over”) between alternate realities.
If a fan chooses to embrace MWI as a means to suggest that the Prime Timeline still exists (which is only offscreen commentary, and not canon anyway), then that fan should also have to surrender the notion that a person could crossover from one to the other. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
But the dialogue in the film suggests time travel, not any “crossover” to an alternate universe—-
Kirk:”…But you say he’s from the future and knows what’s gonna happen – then the logical thing is to be unpredictable!”
Spock:”You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. The contrary – Nero’s very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.”
Uhura:”An alternate reality?”
Spock:”Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.”
Note the phrases “altered the flow of history”, and “if the time continuum has been disrupted”…
That’s time travel, and nothing akin to alternate universes like the MU.
And (canonically speaking) until it is otherwise stated and/or depicted onscreen, time travel in the fictional world of Star Trek still works just as it has in the 52 previous canon entries—-one timeline subject to being altered due to interefernce with the past.
Who’s your daddy?
Papa Spock!
A new smurf.
Papa Spock!!!!
La la la la la la.
@ 115 Dude, you’re the one who is flipping out here. Of course it’s fiction. We’re just talking about the way that that fiction functions. (Say that ten times fast.) No need to wig about it.
@119 IIRC Spock just says ”attack on USS Kelvin” no definite article. Or am I misremembering?
#112 “We like things that you know most people don’t seem to like any more, plots, long arching storyline so forth.”
I tend to agree..
#89. Closettrekker wrote: “Personally, I think that was worth a helluva lot more than any “moment of silence” for Amanda Grayson or Vulcan.”
I don’t disagree. I could have done without the creepy kissing in the elevator between Uhura & Spock, but I guess it happens: sex & death.
My point is these guys don’t dwell on stuff very long, even Geo. Kirk’s death was short & to the point. Not a second wasted. None need be either for the second death of Spock (actually he may have technically died several more times and been revived).
Albeit the focus in TWOK & TSFS was all about Spock, but there was an awful lot of ceremony devoted to his death and revival. If they elect to kill SP, just send a telegram and let Uhura make out with Spock again – perhaps this time he’ll get to second base.
Closettrekker wrote: “Or just have Spock Prime explain why he chooses not to empart with such knowledge”
More than likely the later assumption will be followed and they simply will ignore and forget about SP. That seems to be their M.O. What happened to Nero for 25 years?, Why didn’t Spock try to go back in time to save Vulcan, or even set the timeline right (we KNOW why, but they never discuss it on screen). They simply avoid answering questions that have no bearing on the immediate story and it doesn’t bother them at all. Depending on your position, that’s either good or bad, but nevertheless seems to be the case.
SPOCK PRIME: “Wait a second… You get to mess with UHURA? She’ll probably like an older version of me too then, right? Right?”
I have two words for the next movie:
Shat.
Ner.
As many have said, and as great as his appearance in the new flick was, it should be his last. He got the classy farewell he deserved. (Hell, he already had two others: ST II, ST VI! And don’t forget “Unification.”) How many times can we really say goodbye to Nimoy’s Spock? It’s time to move on and let the new franchise grow.
119.
There is one HUGE problem with your analyses. If there is only one timeline then Prime Spock should have disappeared the moment Nero shot on the USS Kelvin. If you remember, in City on the Edge of Forever, Kirk and crew were protected in the surface of the planet from the time distortion by the Guardian of Forever. The multiple universe theory was shown in canon in “Mirror, Mirror”, “Parallels”, “Yesterday’s Enterprise”. It doesn’t have to be spoken on screen to know the quantum mechanics of it. I would also add, when one of the supreme court members, Bob Orci comes on trekmovie.com and says it is an alternate universe because of the mutiple universe theory, I’ll take that as canon.
#122—My post in #119 contains a direct quote from the film’s dialogue.
#127—”There is one HUGE problem with your analyses.If you remember, in City on the Edge of Forever, Kirk and crew were protected in the surface of the planet from the time distortion by the Guardian of Forever. ”
When is that ever actually stated in the dialogue? I don’t recall anything like that. TCOTEOF simply doesn’t mesh with MWI.
But it isn’t “my analysis” which suggests that it isn’t any different from the previous 52 time travel stories in Trek canon, rather, it is the lack of anything in the film contrary to that which gives us no reason to assume otherwise. Offscreen commentary by a writer has never been canon.
If the writers wanted to retcon Star Trek’s treatment of time travel in ST09—then they could have done so. But they didn’t. Until such time as they do—it is the same as it ever was.
” when one of the supreme court members, Bob Orci comes on trekmovie.com and says it is an alternate universe because of the mutiple universe theory, I’ll take that as canon.”
Even Orci himself has admitted that it isn’t canon. You’re free to amend the criteria for canon in your own mind—-but I see no reason to do so.
Onscreen=canon. Always has, always will. If you want to make it canon—put it on screen. It is as simple as that.
#127—Actually, I think I initially misunderstood your comment on TCOTEOF.
Obviously, they were somehow immune to the changes in the timeline—since the Enterprise and everything they knew was gone—but I am not sure what your point on that is.
If MWI applied to TCOTEOF, then McCoy’s interference with the death of Edith Keeler would have had no effect at all on the timeline they knew. It would simply have created another timeline independent of the one from which he entered the Guardian.
That isn’t what happened. McCoy’s interference with the past altered the timeline.
“Let’s face it. Bill Shatner is somewhat polarizing. The man has alot of fans—but he also has alot of people who just cannot stand him. I don’t think that had anything to do with his absence from ST09, but I think it is an incredible stretch to suggest that putting him in the film would have automatically been a better business decision”
Of course it would have been. The Shatner haters would have been on line to see the movie just to find reason to bash him. The Shatner fans would have been on line just to see an icon return to the role that he made iconic. As for discussing where I feel the producers were disingenuous about trying to get Shatner in the movie, the topic has been done to death, and it will only make Anthony mad. No point.
130–Right on the money.
There are probably many parallel universes in which Shatner made the cameo he wanted with various outcomes to the movie and some in which Nimoy died long ago. And, heaven forbid, there are probably universes in which Star Trek the series never went into production. The thing with parallel universes, fictional or not, is that things happen in infinite ways. Talk about your Infinite Diversity!
Yeah, I love Leonard as Spock, and always will. But I agree that it’s definitely time to let the new group of actors carry the weight for themselves and further establish their own chemistry and character development. I’m also more inclined to see new alien races/ villains introduced that we haven’t seen before. But if they decide to include Nimoy again and use a villain like Khan again… and it all works out within the context of the story… of course that’s cool. I’d rather they “explore strange NEW worlds…”
If they can come up with some way to get Spock Prime in the next film(s) then so be it, it would be glorious! For us fans who have been around from the 60’s into the films seeing Spock and Kirk and McCoy, etc it will always be a treat to show the actors who made the franchise what it is. While some would say, leave them out, you will find those who say put them in. I, for one, would love to see Shatner back in action one more time. Nichelle Nichols could play Zoe’s mother. George Takai could paly Adm Nagura. It’s just an idea.
#19
The problem with your premise is you assume Starfleet knows anything about Spock Prime, when the movie clearly indicates they don’t. He isn’t present on the Enterprise during Nero’s downfall or the subsequent events on Earth. It seems to me the only people aware of his existence were Nero (dead), Kirk (who clearly had no plans to discuss it), Scotty (who didn’t know he was Spock, only that he was from the future) and Young Spock (who would also have no motivation to share his knowledge). Since Vulcan was destroyed and family records were undoubtedly lost, Spock can simply pretend to be a long-forgotten Vulcan elder. As far as Starfleet is concerned, all future knowledge was lost with the destruction of the Jellyfish and the Narada.
bla bla bla. As time goes on how long is it going to take before every one starts going, these two spocks dont even look like each other, who came up with this idea
I don’t see any problems inherent in having Spock Prime in the next film. The whole point of setting the new films in an alternate universe/timeline was to remove the obligations to canon and make the stories fresh, so to speak. Hence, we can only expect new and unexpected events to occur in the alternate universe/timeline of the new Star Trek films. And, Spock Prime wouldn’t necessarily know what to expect, either.
As much as I love and respect Nimoy, Spock Prime needs to die. And very early in the next film, perhaps in a prelude similar to the Kelvin scenes. I really believe that while Nimoy was a great bridge, that bridge needs to be imploded, and early, to allow this new cast to thrive. After this, no more OS cast cameos.
I posted my thoughts on this a while back on another thread. But in a rough storyline: Spock Prime has been working on the establishment of the “New Vulcan” homeworld. On the cusp of success, he is stricken with a rare Vulcan disease (maybe the cure was destroyed with Vulcan), and lies on his deathbed. In and out of consciousness, he reminisces about his life, and more importantly about his best friend, Kirk Prime. Kirk Prime welcomes Spock Prime to “the other side” and they enter “the light” (sunset?) together.
If done right there is plenty of emotional impact possible, and tears from the fans. Much like the Kelvin scenes. This would also get Shatner into the film in a dramatic scene (no bufoonery please), and be a fitting send -off to the OS cast (and Kirk Prime and Spock Prime), once and for all. It should be made clear that from that point on that this new crew is on their own, much as the original crew was. Cue the big music and the Starfleet insignia….
Sort of off-topic, but I think the next movie should continue the story of the Vulcan Exodus, and the founding of New Vulcan. You can’t leave the Vulcans out there hanging. For adventure, special effects, space battles, drama, etc, you can have your favorite alien race dispute the Vulcan claim on their new planet and declare war. Or a Doomsday Machine enters the New Vulcan system. Or, god forbid (in my opinion) the Botany Bay is found crashed-landed in a remote area of New Vulcan with their suspended-animation systems failing….. The possibilities are endless, but New Vulcan should be the catalyst for any story. Just my opinions, of course.
But, what they REALLY need to do is get Shatner and Nimoy in the next film for one, final go-around.
That would please just about everyone—I can scarcely think of any greater consensus amongst Trekkies and the general audience at the next Trek film than appreciation for Shatner’s Kirk, and especially for the Shatner’s Kirk/Nimoy’s Spock partnership.
One final curtain call, as those two fine actors sail off into the sunset of their Trekdome—ending their movie careers right back where they began them.
I’m almost getting misty imagining it.
It’s be interesting to see how the new crew would deal with V’Ger or the Whaleseeker, which is all the reason NOT to revisit much of anything [including Khan] and thus not have to deal with getting Spock Prime’s input.
I’m glad we had Nimoy for the first new adventure, but it’s time to let the new blood make their own way; just give us the occasional distorted echo of the Prime Universe once in awhile….
Love that Nimoy was in the movie but I think since they have handed the baton to the new crew, it’s time to go forward. That means a new direction without retreading the other movies. Clean slate. Go with it.
Looking forward to seeing more of Nimoy on Fringe next year.
“I can scarcely think of any greater consensus amongst Trekkies and the general audience at the next Trek film than appreciation for Shatner’s Kirk…”
So you don’t get around on this site much, do you? ;)
i do think they aged him too much- nimoy isnt grey yet why should spock be?
139 is a cool Rush fan, but apparently not up on the trekmovie.com schism about Shatner. Buy hey, I love the Shat, so you go 139.
Just selfishly, but I would love to see more of Nimoy as Spock prime!
How ’bout a remake of Spock’s Brain, where McCoy accidently botches the reinstall of Quinto’s brain and so they need to find Nimoy so they can use his? I expect a percentage of the gross for this idea.
26. Multitrek
Ever hear of Section 31? ;)
The 23rd Century Federation is likely a little less corrupt than the totalitarian Federation of the 24th Century, but it would be out and out lunacy in the wake of the destruction of the one of the two most important founding planets of the Federation not to get all the information they can out of Spock Prime.
66. Closettrekker: ‘I feel the problem with that is that it would be akin to a parent providing everything necessary for a child to succeed, without ever requiring the child to work for it. That begs the legitimate question as to whether the parent is actually contributing to the child’s development…or hindering it.’
That depends: the rules are different since the original timeline was erased/branched from. The Federation fleet and the Klingon fleet have been massively compromised, giving the Romulans a massive upper hand in the quadrant. Weakened, they will need all the information they can get. In any case by answering one set of questions, surely they have a whole new bunch of answers to seek out? And besides, if Spock Prime won’t tell them what they need to know, they’ll probably drug him or torture him to get the info!
# 147 …they’ll probably drug or torture him to get the info!
They wouldn’t have to – 2 words: Mind meld.
Which would even be kind of poetic justice, because of Spock Prime’s forced mind meld with Valeris in TUC (which had very creepy sexual overtones, btw). All the reasons and excuses he had then would apply now, as well.
So, who’s to play T’Pau giving poor Spock Prime a taste of his own medicine?
#139—-”what they REALLY need to do is get Shatner and Nimoy in the next film for one, final go-around.
That would please just about everyone…”
Lmao!
I’ve already seen “Space Cowboys”…and I didn’t like it.
The Shatner/Nimoy combination had its “final go-around” in Star Trek back in 1991, and each of them has since appeared in one additional Star Trek film. Enough is enough, as far as I’m concerned.
Just because you can—doesn’t mean you should. Just because Bill wants to be in another one—doesn’t mean he should (see GEN). The torch has been passed. Let it go…let it go.
146. Jack wrote: How ’bout a remake of Spock’s Brain, where McCoy accidently botches the reinstall of Quinto’s brain and so they need to find Nimoy so they can use his?
BRILLIANT!
Shatner can direct!
#147 Dom wrote: “That depends: the rules are different since the original timeline was erased/branched from”
I agree, this highlights the biggest problem with Prime Spock in this film.
Nimoy has already been meddling to correct the proper relationship with Kirk & Spock and giving away future information. He is indirectly responsible for the destruction of Vulcan and the re-ordering of this universe. We are told the Federation is already more advanced than it should be because of scans it took of Nero’s ship. Imagine how much more advanced the Klingons are now that they actually had the ship in their possession to study, while Nero was in prison. Since ST:Enterprise already told us about Romulan spies, one must assume they have some of this information as well.
If MWI QM is actually in play, not only is preserving the timeline no longer an issue, but helping preserve the balance of the alternate universe which Spock is indirectly responsible for upsetting, is of primary importance. Why help repair the relationship between Kirk and Spock, but keep quiet on more significant issues affecting the entire galaxy? The answer is he wouldn’t, he would help the Federation any way he could to prevent the changes Nero made from further destroying this reality. For all the effort he put into salvaging the Kirk/Spock relationship, it would all be pointless if the Klingons came along in their Narada modified super-ships and blow up the Enterprise the first chance they get. Even if viewed the old fashioned linear way, assuming Spock sees fixing the timeline as a bigger risk than leaving things the way the are, he has an even greater responsibility to help the Federation redress the balance of power and correct the timeline as best as possible.
Frankly, PS should have been crushed under something at the end of the movie like Shatner in GEN., or better yet, been eaten by the Lobster monster on Delta Vega. That would have been the best way to solve the problem. But since he wasn’t, doing it right away in the sequel is the best idea.
#151—”Imagine how much more advanced the Klingons are now that they actually had the ship in their possession to study, while Nero was in prison.”
Do we actually know that the Klingons captured both Nero *and* his ship? I thought that all we knew of those scenes indicated that he was personally imprisoned. Isn’t it possible that Nero was rescued by some of his men who maintained possession of the Narada all along?
“Since ST:Enterprise already told us about Romulan spies, one must assume they have some of this information as well.”
That assumes that the level of espionage activity in which the Romulans engaged prior to the Earth-Romulan War was sustained even after the conflict was ended. That would seem to me to be called into question by the events depicted in “Balance Of Terror”, in which it is suggested in dialogue that the Romulans are on a probing mission to guage their enemy’s current strength—-which in turn suggests that either their espionage activity level within the Federation (which should be somewhat hindered anyway by the “Neutral Zone” itself) has diminished since the pre-War days, or that the quality of RSE intelligence simply isn’t very good.
“No need to tell you what will happen when we return home with proof of the Earthmen’s weakness…and we will have proof. Our gift to the homeland…another war.”—-Romulan Commander in “BOT”
I think that suggests that Romulan intelligence efforts are not stepped up anywhere near that level again until sometime between BOT and TEI.
“…it would all be pointless if the Klingons came along in their Narada modified super-ships and blow up the Enterprise the first chance they get.”
It seems reasonable to conclude that they haven’t been significantly modified (at least not any moreso than the Federation designs), since 47 Klingons ships were no match for the Narada just prior to its attack upon Vulcan in 2258.
If anything, the Klingons are the biggest losers of military material in all of this. And if the Romulans are anywhere near as informed as you suggest them to be, then it seems strategically correct for them to pursue the exploitation of *that* weakness—not to threaten the Federation, as they would (again, if they have somehow maintained decent intelligence, despite the suggestive evidence to the contrary) be aware of the fact that the Federation just eliminated the powerful force which managed to destroy 47 Klingon ships as well as Vulcan.
“Even if viewed the old fashioned linear way, assuming Spock sees fixing the timeline as a bigger risk than leaving things the way the are, he has an even greater responsibility to help the Federation redress the balance of power and correct the timeline as best as possible.”
Since the Federation has been aided by more advanced science and technology already, and there is no proof that the Romulans have been so aided—-I think that more or less accounts for (at least with regard to the balance of power between the UFP and RSE) the loss of a planet and a few ships.
If Spock Prime were to divert his attentions away from the resettlement of the Vulcan survivors and turn them toward leveling the overall BOP in the region—his efforts would actually need to be directed toward getting the Klingons back on their feet. Once again, they are the big losers in military strength.
@ 148 I’ve never understood why people see that mindmeld in UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY as having sexual overtones. That seems to me to be a mixed metaphor, to be honest.
It should also be noted that it is quite questionable as to how powerful the Romulans actually are at this point. In the Prime Timeline, even 6 years after 2258, the results of the Romulan incursion across the Neutral Zone is a total failure.
While they certainly do possess a weapon of immense destructive power in 2266, once identified and analyzed, it proves to be quite impractical. Their ships themselves are obviously not so tough, and using such an impractical weapon results in the ship being left quite vulnerable to counterattack. Perhaps this is part of the reason they eventually see fit to acquire battlecruisers of Klingon design origin as we see a couple of years later.
#153—I think that some people view the forced mind-meld as being similar to rape. Although certainly not “sexual”, there is no question that it is a serious violation of another person. Alot of fans have been uncomfortable with the notion that Spock would ever do that…but he obviously did.
#147—-”That depends: the rules are different since the original timeline was erased/branched from.”
I don’t think it changes the philosophy behind that suggestion. Providing them with every advantage is still a hinderance to their growth, both as individual people and as a unified governing body of worlds like the UFP.
I think it would be much like if I were to carry my toddler son everywhere instead of forcing him to walk, never taking the training wheels off his bike, etc.
# 153
This is the impression I got watching that scene, based mostly on how Nimoy and Kim Cattrall play it: as an invasive, even violent act, but not really painful, more confusing and exhausting. Add to this that there were obviously feelings between Spock and Valeris (in the scene where she visits him in his quarters, he misunderstands her because of that), and I both got “emotional feedback” through the meld, not only the information Spock wanted.
But maybe that’s just me.
Mr. Leonard Nimoy is very wise and gracious. Star Trek is wise to have him as an actor or (HINT) as technical consultant in an area where the character “Spock” is concerned!
Always a pleasure to see Mr. Nimoy grace the silver screen, stage, or television screen!
#156. Closettrekker wrote: I think it would be much like if I were to carry my toddler son everywhere instead of forcing him to walk, never taking the training wheels off his bike, etc.
While this makes sense under normal circumstances, to continue this analogy in the correct context considering the state of the Federation, it would be closer to a toddler child seriously injured in an accident. It may take a child years of assistance to overcome certain leg or spinal injuries. In which case a parent must walk the fine line of encouraging the child to push himself through the recovery process while also carrying him a substantial amount of time and leaving the training wheels on a bit longer – to ensure his body is able to recover to the same strength it was when you were prepared to raise him normally. Unfortunately there is a significant mental and emotional component as well with traumatic injury which must be dealt with. So the parent must inevitably deal with that as well. Pushing an injured child too hard may result in resentment and emotional instability, pushing him too hard results in a spoiled and possibly resentful one as well. So no matter how you slice it, this situation is far from normal and Spock must do more than he might otherwise, at least initially, indeed he has already show he cares too much to simply walk away completely.
So I’ll say it again, the only answer is:
PRIME SPOCK MUST DIE
again.
#152. Closettrekker wrote: Do we actually know that the Klingons captured both Nero *and* his ship?
Actually yes, we do.
Sadly most of your well thought out reply is negated by the single entry on the official Paramount title of a deleted scene entitled: “Klingons capture Narada” as reported on this very site.
http://trekmovie.com/2009/06/24/details-on-star-trek-movie-blu-ray-features-and-deleted-scenes-2/
As for the Romulans: Since you based your reply on the assumption that the Klingon’s did not capture the Narada, you did not consider the point I was actually making … that the Romulans would have been actively spying on the Klingons. I don’t believe there is any canon to preclude otherwise and the “Enterprise Incident” is enough to support serious espionage or cooperation between them during that period.
Since the Federation began immediately dissecting the data because they had faced a real threat in the destruction of one of their ships, it is no surprise to me that they would have progressed further than their Klingon counterparts who have been depicted as considerably less efficient in their science. Additionally, the Klingon’s did not perceive the Narada as a similar thereat since they conquered it and imprisoned the crew, so no need to rush resources to applying its secrets to their technology. Nevertheless, unless Nero managed to wipe their databanks before he escaped, he would have left the Klingons with everything they needed to catch up with the Federation and likely surpass it (since they had the actual ship). The destruction of 47 of their conventional ships all the more motivation to apply those things learned from the Narada. My guess is they were only just building prototypes when they were caught off guard by Nero’s escape.
Considering the Romulans were blamed prominently in both the Kelvin attack and the Klingon attacks, it is unlikely they were not made aware of it, considering Uhura casually picked it up while monitoring subspace chatter.
Which brings me back to Spock. If the Klingons were seriously compromised, and we know the Vulcans were, as well as the Federation (though we don’t know how many more ships the Vulcans, Klingons and Terrans had in other systems), then whatever condition the Romulans are in, they would still pose a serious thereat to most of the Federation. If as I suspect they have the information the Klingons do about the Narada, then they could well be a formidable force – once again ENT showing us just how important and advanced their science & research programs are.
If that is the case, it is more important than ever that Prime Spock contribute any knowledge he has toward preserving the Federation. Literally, the Enterprise cannot afford to be destroyed by the Doomsday machine, etc. in the event Kirk & Spock get it wrong, and the Federation cannot afford to be caught off guard by the major threats as they rebuild.
Ultimately, NONE of these deleted scenes are going to be canon unless they appear in some sort of directors cut. As you correctly point out, all we know is the Klingons have had 47 ships (class unknown) destroyed and blamed the Romulans over subspace. The Federation had a large number of battleships destroyed. This leaves a huge vacuum in the power structure of the galaxy. Perhaps the Romulans will try to fill it, even with their inferior fleet, or even the Gorn, or the Tholians, or the Cardassians.
Whatever the case, if Prime Spock does not step up to the plate, there is still a significant chance the Federation could come to an end, since Vulcan and Earth were the greatest forces holding them together. Forget restoring the timeline, whatever PS may feel about not “spoon feeding” his “children”, if he does not provide whatever knowledge he has, there is a real possibility a compromised Federation could come to an end. Considering he is indirectly responsible, this outweighs any moral objections he may have about about revealing what he knows to help restore the Federation, which is ultimately bigger than Vulcan, or all the changes made since the Nero’s arrival. Lest we forget, PS has no idea what state the Romulans or Klingons are in since his arrival considering so much has changed – so there is no logical reason to assume they are identical to the state he knew they were in from his experience in the Prime Universe. Indeed, logic would dictate to err on the side of caution.
@ 157. I’ve just never got that. It’s clearly an invasion but to regard it as in some way sexual is just a category error. (Possibly a result of Kim Cattrall’s utter inability to play any line of dialogue in any way other than as a proposition!). The mind meld is not presented as having sexual overtones in, say, ‘Sarek’ or ‘Unification’ or indeed the new movie. Fans, I think, insist on seeing the mind meld as inherently sexual in some way. But I think that’s nonsense. It’s a completely fictional, utterly symbolic act. It means what the scene in question wants it to mean. In that scene it’s a telepathic invasion. It’s an ordeal, yes, no question, but it has no sexual overtones nor is it presented as having any. I really, really don’t see it. Never have.
@ 155. Indeed. Spock did do it. It might be argued to be ‘out of character’ by some, but its presence onscreen makes it unavoidably canonical.
(I also think it’s interesting that Nimoy clearly had no problem with the scene and as the film’s overall Executive Producer he had more clout than, say, Shatner did, when he objected to ”Let them die!” and the way it’s cut together and lost.)
@ 159. This passion for killing off beloved characters puzzles me. Let them fade away rather than burning them down. (Man, that was an ugly sentence. Apologies.)
160. RD
I agree with you. The other thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the emotional hit of the destruction of Vulcan and the loss of morale across the Federation. Imagine the impact on America of one of the original 13 colonies, say the entire state of New York, being wiped out. The damage to morale in the country would be enormous. Some people would come together, some would want secession, some would run away, some would want war.
In one fell swoop, in a matter of minutes, a substantial portion of the Starfleet and one of the biggest political powers in the Federation are wiped out. The social and political shockwaves sent out by this will be enormous.
I regard Spock Prime’s presence as less that of an overzealous parent than a contestant in a quiz with cribsheet.
Indeed, Spock’s desire to reunite the Romulans and Vulcans will have to be reversed in the new timeline: he won’t want Vulcans defecting to Romulus and giving a much more bullish Star Empire a major scientific boost!
#163. Jim Smith wrote: “This passion for killing off beloved characters puzzles me. Let them fade away rather than burning them down”
Actually, despite the way my post may look, I don’t have any great desire to see Prime Spock die. However, there are not a lot of choices for his character in this universe. If he lives, he has a lot of answers that cannot be realistically kept to himself for many of the reasons listed in this thread alone, in which case we’re continually reminded that there are two Spocks and his presence removes some of the uncertainty we’re supposed to feel as a result of the reboot. Nimoy’s presence also prevents the fan base from fully embracing Quinto as the “real” Spock. So his presence is a big problem.
However, that only matters if any of the stories of the sequels are based on anything that happened in the Prime universe. If they avoid retelling Khan, Doomsday machine or any other plot device derived from TOS, one can always assume Prime Spock told the Federation everything he knows and we never have to see him again, or use any information he gave them. Problem solved. We can only hope this is how they decide to do it.
Nevertheless, Prime Spock is still alive for the fans and until Nimoy passes, that will always be the case until his character dies – which means this debate will rage after ever sequel and for old fans, Quinto will be at least somewhat marginalized. And even then, Prime Spock is still a problem, because you have to say good bye to him at some point and slighting his death in any way will equally upset fans.
Actually I’m with you more than you think. I believe it was a mistake to kill Kirk in GEN. There was no reason to do it at all. If they wanted a hand-off, they didn’t have to kill Kirk, they could have just as easily had Kirk step back into his own time and fade into the past – available again for use should the need arise. Instead they killed him in the least heroic way I can imagine. Nevertheless, the big difference there is that would not have been two Kirks, so there would have been no problems letting him live. Unfortunately, there is not such an easy solution for Prime Spock – his presence unnecessarily complicates an otherwise clean reboot, and thanks to the method of which (MWI QM), Prime Spock can’t just go home, or fix the timeline.
So I’m sorry to say, he’s got to die, quickly and painlessly. He’s had his big death scene in TWOK, now let’s just let him go and enjoy everything Nimoy brought to Trek and the legacy he’s left for Quinto to carry.
165. RD:
Best thing would be a deathbed scene at the end of the second film. Elderly Spock Prime calls Spock to his side and just before dying and passes his katra to the young Spock.
As he does so, something in Spock Prime’s memories chimes with something young Spock has seen in passing during the course of the main story of the movie and he realises that a terrible threat to the Federation is about to be unleashed. Cue cliffhanger end to the film.
With an elderly Spock Prime passing his katra to Quinto’s Spock, it also means we effectively have a version of the original Spock in the films in a new body.
NO Spock prime in sequel. I love the Original Series and the TOS movies. Especially what William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy did with their roles. But now we have a whole new cast BUT with the characters we love. It’s time for a change. And I am all for the future of this cast and crew of STAR TREK.
Let the new cast have their adventures , Not that I dont love all the actors from the past Movies and TV shows but we now have a new beginning , lets just run with that for now
If Spock were to be used for anything, I would hope it would be as a mentor/advisor, much like Yoda. (He’s got the ears, after all…) Perhaps he can help guide young Spock into being the Spock he will be. But the role would have to have meaning, or Nimoy wouldn’t do it. He turned down Generations for that very reason.
While the old-school Trekkie in me would love to see Nimoy again, This was a good exit for him too. If it works, they will have him. If it doesn’t, it’ll be just fine.
169. Crusade2267
Thing is, Kirk and Spock shouldn’t need mentors. They were both badasses in the original show without a father figure to lean on!
#159—-”Spock must do more than he might otherwise, at least initially, indeed he has already show he cares too much to simply walk away completely.”
He certainly isn’t walking away completely. He has made clear that his newly found purpose in life is to aid in the founding of a new world for his father’s people.
But that is a far cry from providing his new/old young friends with every advantage that their prdecessors did not have. In other words, his desire to help repair that for which he feels some degree of responsibility would not likely convince him to provide answers or solutions to problems he knows they may have to face someday. I do not believe that Spock Prime would hinder their growth in that way.
#171 – I think after the analysis of the state of the Federation removes the “tough love” parent approach for Spock. It is no longer a question of choice as to what is best for raising a healthy balanced child, but rather whether his physically disabled child will survive to be an adult.
There is a real risk that Federation will not survive following Nero’s attack. If Spock turns his back on that, then he is not the Spock I grew up with. He may not be able to fix the timeline (or want to for fear of making things worse), but he can do the next best thing which is help protect a vulnerable Federation from total annihilation, which was not at risk before he and Nero arrived. That is far more important than either trying to fix the timeline and save one planet that has been destroyed, or ensuring he does not coddle Kirk & Spock or otherwise hinder anyone’s emotional growth.
#172—”There is a real risk that Federation will not survive following Nero’s attack. ”
I just don’t buy that. The Federation has already been provided with advanced technology from the future, not only by the telemetry from the Narada—but by Spock Prime’s intervention (providing Scotty with advanced transporter tech) on Delta Vega as well.
The Klingons have lost 47 “warbirds”, and there has been no canonical evidence suggesting that the Romulans have benefitted at all (at least technologically) from the appearance of Nero in the 23rd Century.
Moreover, there is virtually no evidence to the nature of the relationship between the Klingon Empire and the RSE prior to “The Enterprise Incident”. We don’t even know where they are in relation to one another.
We know that the Romulans possessed some espionage capability in the region of space populated by the founding members of the UFP during the 2250’s. We know that the Romulans were defeated by Earth and its allies in 2160 at The Battle Of Cheron, and that a “Neutral Zone” was established separating the two powers thereafter. We know that 106 years later, they have so little knowledge of their former enemy’s strength that they send a lone bird of prey with cloaking technology and a weapon which, albeit formidable, proves ultimately impractical—across the Neutral Zone on a probing mission.
The suggestion that the state of the RSE’s military strength is in any way different from 8 years shy of what is depicted in the first season of TOS is nothing short of pure speculation. For all we know, their progression is unchanged in relation to what it was before.
Both the UFP and the Klingon Empire have suffered notable losses, but both have also been exposed to tremendous technological advances as well. We have seen how the Federation has been able to make use of them, but we have yet to see how the somewhat neglected and underfunded scientific community of the Klingon Empire (ENT: “Affliction”) has been able to take advantage of the same.
I don’t see the Federation as a “disabled child”.
On the contrary, while I see it as having lost something of value that it had in the Prime Timeline, I also see it as having *gained* some other things of value which it did *not* have in the Prime Timeline. In fact, it is quite reasonable (IMO) to suggest that it may very well be, despite the loss of Vulcan and a few (9?) ships in the process, even more powerful than it was in 2258 (Prime). The ability to beam personnel aboard ships travelling at warp speed alone is an enormous tactical military advantage—-and one for which there is no reason at all to believe the Klingons and/or Romulans (or any Alpha Quadrant power at all) have yet obtained.
I don’t think that the Federation is any more “vulnerable” than it was in the Prime Timeline. If anything, the Klingons may not be in good enough shape militarily to challenge the Federation in the manner it did in 2267 (Prime)—-and if the Romulans have any information at all on what was going on in both the UFP and the KE with Nero, they may even think twice before attacking the Earth Outposts along the border (which have probably been upgraded in defenses anyway between 2233 and 2258 from the level we saw before) as depicted in BOT, especially after seeing what Starfleet was able to do in defeating an extremely powerful enemy (and seeing what that enemy was capable of). It seems (again, assuming the credit you wish to afford their espionage capabilities is correct) that they would already have the answer to the question they wish to ask. Given their cautious and xenophobic nature to begin with, the Romulans may very well keep to themselves even more than they did before.
I see no reason for Spock Prime to be required to die anytime soon. I would be surprised if he even makes another appearance. He has his own personal mission now, and it appears rather limited in scope.
The door is already open for seeing technology that wasn’t around at the corresponding time in the Prime Timeline—but that need not all be attributed to Spock Prime. Most likely, by simple virtue of what we have already seen them exposed to, there will be an explosion of new advances derived from that with or without him.
There is simply no need for him to provide all of the answers for them. I think that Spock Prime should see the logical benefits of trial for those involved from this point on—which would of course be otherwise absent.
To paraphrase part of Kirk’s “One jealous God” speech in WNMHGB—– “And what will he have learned in the process?”
Indeed. What would they learn in the process of being handed every advantage? Would they still grow as people—or as “a people”? I think your argument both overestimates the vulnerability of the UFP in this altered timeline, and marginalizes a philosophical constant which I think Spock Prime is far too wise to ignore.
#173 – First, a few observations:
1) We don’t know anything vis-a-vis the Romulans about what happened in the alternate timeline between 2233 & 2258. In fact there may not even be a Romaulan Nuetral Zone anymore. Considering the Federation knows about the Romulans suggests the nature of the relationship is considerably different.
2) Orci has already said Scotty will not be able to use warp-beaming because it is just too dangerous. Spock made the calculations so it is one-time only.
While you suggest I assume too much about what we don’t know about the Klingons and Romulans, I think you assume too much about what we don’t know about the Federation. To support your claims about Spock you are giving the Federation the benefit of the doubt while completely discounting the changes which may have affected the Romulans and Klingons.
Finally, it has already been established in previous canon that the Federation is not above corruption nor a hawkish branch of pro-war expansionists. Clearly a black-ops division must exist in this Federation especially considering the addition of significant unknown threats. To that end, I find it highly unlikely they will let him go free with the knowledge he has in his head. Whether we ever see Spock again or not, it may not be his choice whether he divulges this information or not.
Nevertheless, your entire argument hinges on something we don’t know … which is how strong the Federation is and how strong their adversaries are. So suffice it say, we can debate the evidence for both sides, until we have calluses on our fingers, but will get no closer to an answer until we are shown canonically what the state of affairs are in this universe.
Either way, Prime Spock will still be around in this universe. Whether or not he feels his knowledge of the future will be applicable due to the weakened state of the Federation, or will only harm the respective partie’s “growth”, does not discount the fact that the Federation, or even Kirk or Spock will feel compelled to ask questions. If Kirk and Spock come upon an undefeatable 20th century bad guy named “Khan” who is to say they won’t phone in a question to their buddy PS and ask what he knows. In which case, what does PS say? “Sorry guys, you’ll have to work this out on your own?”
I’m sorry, but however you slice it, PS’s presence in this universe is a problem. The sooner he goes away the better.
#174—-”We don’t know anything vis-a-vis the Romulans about what happened in the alternate timeline between 2233 & 2258.”
Which is precisely why we shouldn’t assume they have gained any advantage over their corresponding position in the Prime Timeline.
“Orci has already said Scotty will not be able to use warp-beaming because it is just too dangerous. Spock made the calculations so it is one-time only.”
Even if they cannot make regular use of the technology due to its impracticality, knowledge of the formula alone would encourage and aid advancement in the field of physics and transporter technology far ahead of where it was prior to Spock Prime’s decision to empart with it. At the very least, such advancements would be accelerated.
And of course, Orci’s commentary on the matter isn’t “canon”. Unless something like that becomes part of a future story that Orci writes, other future writers would not be hampered by anything like that. He can, should that be important to him, make it canon by writing it into the sequel—but until he does so, it is fair game. We’ve seen it done already, and the imprecision of it on that occasion can be attributed to Scotty’s current lack of experience with it.
“To support your claims about Spock you are giving the Federation the benefit of the doubt while completely discounting the changes which may have affected the Romulans and Klingons.”
I’m afraid that is a result of having quite a bit of information about what it has done for the Federation, having very little information about what it might have done for the Klingons, and no reason at all to believe that it has done anything whatsoever for the Romulans.
We’ve seen tangible results for Starfleet, while we have seen nothing of what it has done for the other powers in the quadrant. I am willing to assume that the Klingons have benefitted (since they did hold the Narada captive for an as yet unspecified amount of time), but I also have to temper my assumptions with facts: 47 Klingon “warbirds” were still defeated/destroyed by the Narada in 2258; and Klingon scientific research is canonically established as lacking in attention, prestige, and resources.
“Considering the Federation knows about the Romulans suggests the nature of the relationship is considerably different.”
The Fedartion already “knew about the Romulans” some 77 years before the attack upon the Kelvin, since they not only fought a war bewteen 2156 and 2160, but verbally negotiated a treaty to end that war. The only thing clearly different about the nature of their relationship by 2258 is that the Federation is formally aware of the apparent similarity to Vulcans—and presumably, all that required was a routine debriefing of the Kelvin survivors and an investigation into the attack. Anything beyond that is not only purely speculative, but without any basis at all.
While the Romulans *could* (theoretically) have been affected in some way by the appearance of the Narada which expedited their techonological advancement—-we simply have no reason (unlike the tangible proof with Starfleet and substantial reason to believe with the Klingons)at all to believe it happened.
“…what does PS say? “Sorry guys, you’ll have to work this out on your own?”
Essentially—-yes.
“I’m sorry, but however you slice it, PS’s presence in this universe is a problem. The sooner he goes away the better.”
As always, it is only a question in need of answering if the writers allow it to be in the first place. Just as has been done in Star Trek for decades, a convenient plot device will no doubt rear its head in order to prevent our heroes from using an intergalactic “lifeline”.
“Communications are down”, “transporters are currently inoperative”, “we’ve lost warp power”—–whatever it should end up being, Trek stories have often managed to get around the “why don’t they just…” questions by premptively eliminating the option to begin with….and it doesn’t require killing Spock Prime to do so.
#174 – yes, Spock can be conveniently circumvented, as can anything and everything in canon. My point is, his presence creates unnecessary contrivances which I thought was the whole point of re-booting anyway. They’ve just created new canon problems for themselves to get around and Spock just further complicates them.
#176—I suppose the difference between you and I on this subject is the perception of the degree to which his presence creates a “problem”.
#177 – LOL
I believe you have just summed up the entire nature of the Star Trek fan base!
LOL!
Yes, a second movie should stand on its own, but Nimoy’s Spock Prime is in this new universe and Nimoy is not getting any younger. No offense, it’s just true. I would like to see him in the robes yet again, one more time.
This last movie destroyed Vulcan as a major part of the plot. It would be extremely interesting to see the storyline begun in the first movie continue….and at least a portion, even a small portion, of the movie devoted in some way to showing where the reconstituted Vulcan people settle.
So, I for one would like Nimoy to be involved again …. how about in way that would somehow allow us to also get closure with Shatner’s Kirk?
#179—”…how about in way that would somehow allow us to also get closure with Shatner’s Kirk?”
We did get closure with Shatner’s Kirk…disappointing as it may have been.
#179. – I had started to mention a few times that ST09 seems to have set up a grand arc cinematic trilogy story by destroying Vulcan and opening up the exploration of the fate of Vulcans. However, I realize now that such a plot would only matter to the original fan base and be of less interest to attracting a new audience. Also, if you think about it, we never really found out what happened to Princess Leia’s people from Alderaan after their planet was destroyed, and no one missed it, not even Leia seemingly. Somehow I think Abram’s will treat Vulcan the same way – the re-colonization of “New Vulcan” is likely best saved for a new series or novels … not a Summer blockbuster which needs all the action they can cram into it.
As for Kirk, Closettrekker is right. There is no way to mitigate his ignominious death without marginalizing his character further, in what could only amount to an insignificant cameo which would only have meaning to some fans. The same goes for Spock. He would have to have even less screen time in a film which needs to otherwise devote its entirety to showing us what Star Trek can really do now … not dwell on what we’ve had for 40 years.
I must say, did love the re-boot, but it also created a future problem of remakes, since V’Ger is out there and coming to earth eventually, Khan drifting somewhere, and the Probe of the extinct whales…
I really hate it that a Star Wars Fan felt compelled to remake Star Trek in his own image. This alternate universe stuff is a fraud- the old Trek universe as of now is gone- unless of course one does not accept the new Star Trek as canon. I never will.
All this talk about respect for old fans is BS. The universe has been remade and the old fans dumped on by the new ones as well as the producers of the new movie series.
This should never have taken place in a new time line. The new actors should have been permitted to join the existing universe. It is only the laziness of Abrams that they did not. A skilled writer can make a good story out of anything. Rebooting the series show the new producers are creatively bankrupt. The new movie shows this as this is another revenge story where the bad guy gets it in the end- yet another remake of the wrath of khan.
Besides, if this were the same universe, Spock could have returned to the future and Kirk would have been waiting for him- one consequence of an altered time line.
It seems everyone is behind this reboot. I guess all that people want are special effects and revenge stories and action over and over and over and over again. Seems more like a rerun than any of the old TV shows. At least they had variety.