Harlan Ellison Settles Lawsuit With CBS & Paramount October 23, 2009
by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Paramount, TOS , trackback
Back in March we reported that Harlan Ellison was suing CBS and Paramount for merchandising royalties related to his classic episode "City on the Edge of Forever." Yesterday on his site, Ellison announced the suite was "over" and that he was "pleased with the outcome" and that there would be an agreed statement coming.
Harlan Gets Paid
Harlan’s suit alleged that CBS and Paramount owed him money for merchandise, especially the the "Crucible" trilogy of books from 2006, written by David R. George III. In a press release back in March, Ellison was clear what his goal was, noting:
It ain’t about the ‘principle,’ friend, its about the MONEY! Pay Me!
So, apparently, that is what has happened. Harlan Ellison wrote the following on his website on Thursday
THE STAR TREK LAWSUIT
Is over. I am pleased with the outcome. An "agreed-upon statement" will be coming from me and my attorney John Carmichael, and CBS / Paramount today or in the next two-three days. It is carefully worded. Wait for it. But, at bottom, three years’ litigation is completed.
Lordy, I am tired..
No details on the settlement (and it is likely they will never be released), but as the video below shows, Harlan likes to get paid.
More Harlan
Want more Harlan? The above video is from the 2008 documentary "Dreams With Sharp Teeth", which is available on DVD. You can pick it up at Amazon. Here is a trailer, which includes a bit with Star Trek vet Ron Moore.
Buy it on Amazon, clicking the link means that TrekMovie gets paid, so Harlan would approve!
Loading ...
Comments»
That is great news! I am happy for everybody who is involved in this matter.
FIRST!
I agree with Harlan.
Hope he buys himself a nice piece of Trek memorabilia with his moolah.
Ellison rocks. That video is priceless and he is absolutely right.
Remember the Kelvin!
HAHAHA! Ellison is great.
I LOVE Harlan’s honesty!
I’m impressed that Harlan faithfully defends the rights of creative people. I’m unimpressed with his mouth and his attitude.
I didn’t watch the video, but in the past I’ve found the dude’s language too arrogant and foul. It’s not edgy and hip to swear every other word — it’s low and trashy.
This is why the new movie has been delayed. Paramount needed to clear up their legal problems with Ellison before green lighting the re-imagination of “City on the Edge of Forever” with Megan Fox as Edith Keeler.
There’s nothing edgy OR trashy about swearing.
So….no more “City on the Edge of Forever” related material…….ever?
Harlan Ellison seems to be the kind of person that I could not spend spend 2 minutes with before I hated him. Glad he got his money and all, but what a d**khead.
There are was of being tenacious without being an ass. Harlan has never been able to do that. Still, I’m glad he’s won out on this.
#8 CJS … uh oh, you used the title of the episode and the name of one of the characters without permission. No doubt the lawsuit has already been filed….
#13. But he didn’t say “Sister Edith Keeler” and the “Guardians”.
Uh, oh. Ooof!
ah yes, cordwainer bird and his lawsuit. i honestly don’t know what my opinion of him is. from what i’ve read and stuff, city on the edge of forever was drastically re-written by rodenberrry or something and so the one that we know and love isn’t realy all that much of ellison’s work. but i don’t know, i wasn’t there :)
Harlan forever, baby. Harlan FTW :)
After watching that video with Harlan, I have the following to say:
I agree with him 100% on that writers, cameramen, actors, directors all should get payed for their work. If it were up to me, i’d pay the writers and directors and actors directly out of my pocket. But instead, we are forced to pay the big companies like Paramount, Warner Bros etc, who THEN decide on how much they’re gonna pay the actors, writers etc.
What I don’t agree on, is his attitude. Watching that video, it’s quite noticeable that Harlan is a huge d–k and I would not want to spend more than 5 seconds in a room with him.
I know I’m alone here, but Ellison sounds like a money-grubbing jerk to me. I discussed this when the issue was first brought up but since then I’ve learned this is hardly new for him. He pulled a similar stunt back in the 1980s with the first Terminator film, which he alleged was based on two of his episodes for the Twlight Zone.
Note that the actual owners of the Twilight Zone never made the charge and that the episodes in question bear no more resemblance to The Terminator than any number of other generic science fiction stories about time travelers or future soldiers (they don’t, for instance, involve a time-traveling robotic assassin sent to kill a future leader). And that James Cameron has already told us where he came up with the idea (from a fever-induced nightmare).
There’s also how he treated Penny Arcade’s Gabe at a convention.
Really, Ellison’s got a pretty insufferable ego from what I can tell. Which is too bad, really. He’s done some good work (though I think he’s generally overrated).
Good Job Harlen. You made more money on an episode you supposedly hate from a series you supposedly hate.
Harlan DESERVES to get paid.
…just like Jack Kirby’s kids…
Congrats!!
#19 Whoa now… of course, Harlan was one of the key SciFi authors who helped lead the letter campaign the first time around to keep NBC from killing the show.
Imagine if there’d only been the first season, and no second. (Okay, some of us could do without the third…)
Harlan did some good. He got in a fuss with Roddenberry. He’s not the first, nor the last, just the loudest. The sad part is, he always blamed Gene for the rewrites on City. Turns out, the rewrite part was from one of the people on the Trek staff he respected, D.C. Fontana. Of course, she was following Gene’s orders. I suspect Gene was busy, erm, hrm, hrm, with seeing to the casting of certain, erm, actresses.
Anyway… good for all parties. Plus, it means Harlan probably gave something up… maybe clearance for written works to build on Sister Edith, and also the Guardian”s” of Forever. Surely there’s not just one!
P.S.
..being f**ked over CAN tend to make one a bit dick-ish…
If this means we will be seeing the Guardian of Forever again ON SCREEN in a future Star Trek movie or series then this is great news!
The Guardian of Forever will be appearing in STO, so it’s not exactly a surprise that CBS/Paramount would’ve had to make some kind of deal with Mr Greedy Ellison.
7. “It’s not edgy and hip to swear every other word — it’s low and trashy.”
You should have read the script Orci & Kurtzman wrote for Star Trek ‘09. ;-) Haven’t read so many swear words in a script in a long time. Low and trashy indeed.
18. Nivenus
Perhaps, it would be harder for people to ignore your views if you put more effort into your fact checking?
The episodes in question were written for THE OUTER LIMITS tv series.
I wonder if Harlan will get extra money from future ST movies where the Guardian of Forever is featured. Any ideas?
The Guardian of Forever has been used in souvenirs like Hallmark Christmas ornaments and in things like Star Trek: The Exhibit. It’s about time that Harlan Ellison got paid his royalties.
Ok. For all of you who said and have used City on the edge of forever or The guardien or Edith Keeler then you are all in Very Bigh trouble. Im sure by now Lawsuits are on there way to you.
Oh wait. Im in trouble to. I used those words to. Oh great. Maybe i can do something with the Agoniser Booth.
21 – Um what? That sounds like something Harlan would never do.
He’s a detestable greedy whore.
H.E. to Anthony: “So, you had 2 clips, with an all-you-can-eat supply of f-bombs (a wise selection, by the way) and a dose of paranoia on the side? That means you owe me $4,565.67.”
31. jocor
And what does that make the huge multi-national conglomerate that licenced usage of Mr Ellison’s material without caring about the legalities?
Right now I’m a few hundred pounds in the red and owed about £4,000 by various parties. I tend to get pretty pee-ed off too when I don’t get paid.
Quite simply, if you own the rights to something or you appeared in something and haven’t signed those rights away, you absolutely should be paid.
Good on Harlan!
How about that? ELLISON WINS AGAIN!
Go get ‘em, Harlan!
I am split on this. I agree that he deserves to be paid A LOT for City On The Edge Of Forever. But deserving does not necessarily mean he legally has it coming. If he signed a contract with Paramount and signed over the rights to the story for X amount of money back in the 1960s, then that’s it. It’s done. Paramount owns the rights, and all elements in the story.
I’m guessing that Paramount might have settled for who-knows-how-much to get rid of the nuisance of the lawsuit. But Harlan is right–in that these people –do– deserve more for what they do, and deserve better contracts and pay!
26. My mistake.
I read “TWILIGHT ZONE” for some reason (I actually did check, I just misread).
#18
Jim Cameron freely admitted that he took ‘inspiration’ from Harlan’s stories. It was never a fact in dispute.
“All is as it was before …”
Harlan = Toady
I don’t understand how Harlan is owed money for another writer using “concepts” established in the original series canon. Does Gene Roddenberry’s heirs deserve backpay every time dilythium crystals are mentioned?
Does Harlan Ellison get any money from the Terminator franchise, or is the credit added to the first movie all he got?
I think this is the thing that bothers me the most about Ellison’s case: generally, when a writer sells a script to a property, the studio becomes sole heirs to that property and are free to use it how they see fit. I’m sure when Ellison sold the original script for City he was well paid for the time. He got money for the script and Desilu studios become owners of the property. It seems rather disingenuous to me to go back after the fact screaming over something that became far more popular than you envisioned and now try to glom on to the money train because you now feel like you’re owed even more.
Sorry Ellison… you sold the script. You signed the contract. Unless you specifically had it spelled out that you still had intellectual rights to elements of the script, they just aren’t yours anymore.
Imagine what would happen to Star Trek (or ANY long-running serial that uses multiple writers) if every author who submitted a script was allowed to own every idea from that script into perpetuity. I think the next Trek movie would be quite different as the guy who created the idea for the Klingons decides he wants a bigger cut of the pie. And the guy who imagined the Warp Drive. And the writer who coined the term “phaser.” And Heaven help us if D.C. Fontana’s estate decides that anything Vulcan-related is hers.
If this were to happen, it would be impossible for any show, not just Star Trek, to build any kind of continuity or canon. Because as soon as a show in Season 5 mentioned something another writer coined in Season 3, the Season 3 author could sue claiming he was owned royalties.
So to me this is a huge case of long-standing sour grapes. The Roddenberry/Fontana re-write of his story became hugely popular, probably moreso than he ever envisioned and now he feels like he’s owed something anytime somebody mentions the words Edith Keeler. Sorry… that’s just not the way it works.
I’m sure that Paramount settled just to get rid of this suit… but they may be opening a very dangerous can of worms. Certainly, going forward, contracts for writers will be must more stringently worded to prevent this kind of lawsuit… but one must wonder about the claims that writers of shows from days gone by are thinking about now… how they can claim another piece of the action (sorry, had to do it!)
I truly do not mean for this to be a mean or racist comment as it’s an observation but Ellison doesn’t exactly fight against the “Jews are greedy money-lovers” stereotype.
Well, it is both a mean and bigoted comment nonetheless.
Ellison and Sturgeon were by far the best writers ever associated with Star Trek.
Harlan can suck it.
I don’t see Gene Coon’s estate lining up to get his share every time Klingons are used.
Harlan Ellison is a very little man.
With the exception of Bradbury, Ellison may be America’s greatest author.
The Starlost (1973)
Episode Four: “Bored, So Bored”
by Cordwainer Bird
Devon: “Guys, we’ve been standing in front of this fakey-looking chroma key for 17 minutes, just talking about whether we should or shouldn’t move on to the next domed civilization.”
Rachel: “That’s because Toronto International Television Syndicators won’t spend more than $16.35 (Canadian) per episode. What do you want me to do about it?”
Garth: “Anything to break the monotony. I know: Touch me where I pee.”
Cordwainer Bird: “Lord, you mannequins are killing my material. Good thing I have it copyrighted, so I’ll make it up on the other end.”
Oro: “You mean anytime anyone writes something like “touch me where I pee” you get money?”
Cordwainer Bird: “Writes it, says it, thinks it, f*$%ing inscribes it in the snow! I GET PAID!”
Oro: “Touch me where I pee.”
Cordwainer Bird: “Ten bucks. U.S., not that maple syrup monopoly money with the frigid chick on it.”
Oro: “Fair enough.” (hands over some cash)
Cordwainer Bird: “This a twenty.”
Oro: “Keep it. I’ve got plans. Rachel, I want to show you something I learned between takes on Star Trek…”
Cordwainer Bird: “You ask her to “swivel me to heaven, my spaceman” and it’s another twenty. That b#@$ard Roddenberry totally wasted my love scene between Kirk and Edith.”
I enjoyed his compo-book “An Edge In Me Voice” and I probably will get that D-VD “Dreams wit’ Sharp Teeth” fur’ Christmas…
But…
Well, sue CBS and win, good fur’ ye’…
Sue BND fur’ hidin’ in a woman’s closet whilst her husband comes home and she still be hummin’ him… Hey- I have a mouth and I must scream!
Sue Harla-quinn fur’ that gent shootin’ me in tha’ buttocks…
Wait… guess that wuz’ me own bad. Gotta’ take credit whar’ credit be due…
Oh, Ell’s best book: Mind Fields- artist Jacek Yerka…. Harlan’s story called “Susan” is truly wondrous and lovely… my favourite of his collected massive works…
Other than that… whar’s tha edge in yer voice, matey???? Arrrrr ye’ too busy debatin’ Shatner vs. Pine and can’t go oot’ and beat some inept tv execs wit’ a basey-ball bat?
Pa-tash.
Life is a messy journey. Best ta’ batter up.
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr…
Total transparency: “touch me where I pee” is a BND original. (Or else BND owes Harlan $10; I’m not sure. Stupid red matter quantum plot holes!)
Ellison’s essays are wonderful reading. He can incredibly piss you off… as well as make you think about things in a different manner… though sometimes he pisses you off enough to think about tossing his books…
But you don’t… Smart and angry man. We are the better fur’ it, we is…
So, instead o’ sporkin’ Harley-quinn, ye’ stalk Joan Collins wearin’ yer’ Chris Pine Hallow’s Eve outfit, and eventually get tossed in tha’ prison by Olde Bill…
What wuz’ it said- if we only read stuff we agree with, then how can we grow?
“Upon the brink of the wild stream
He stood, and dreamt a mighty dream.”
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr…
CmdrR- either touch me where I pee or pay me some 2 quatloos in royalty!!!!
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr…
I wonder if he’ll go after the Phase 2 folks next – haha!
my opinion on Harlan Ellison has always been mixed, to say the least, but congrats for him getting his royalties.
As someone else said, he may not have been in the position to claim anything was his, anyway. I’ve been in the entertainment industry for over 25 years and is no stranger to the legal things here and there.
Also, as pointed out, much of his original script to the episode was not used because of many of the characters were, simply put acting too much out of character (as well as some things were changed for budget reasons). But, re-writing of scripts and the such is quite common, anyway. Who knows what parts of the original script was really his and not Roddenberry, Coon and others.
Ellison is still making money off Gene despite leaving Trek in the 60’s.
#45 –
I disagree. I think Gene Coon and Dorothy Fontana’s contributions made far more of an impact on Star Trek than Ellison’s. Spinrad’s Doomsday Machine was a far better episode — IMHO — than COTEF.
Ellison’s Outer Limits work is outstanding, but I never liked City on the Edge of Forever…neither the aired version or the version in the book.
They just left me cold…
BND — I wouldn’t touch you where you pee for all the quatloos in the Alpha Quadrant.
But, I’ll tipple a touch of the true wit’ ya anytime.
Hey Anthony (I assume it’s Anthony)? What link? I’ll click on it so you get money, but I don’t see it.
Yes, he was taken advantage of over 40 years ago….
Yes, he is a great writer…..
Yes, I hope he feels vindicated….
But folks, life is too precious, and too short to be filled with the amount festering poison that appears to have driven this man. Regardless of if it is only a public persona, it is repugnant, and beneath anyone who has risen to the level that Ellison has. In short….it poisons the well, and (possibly) negatively influences some who would choose the career path he helped pioneer. We are all defined by our environment, and our life experiences. Ellison has been defined by his. But, it is what you do with that definition that matters. I’m glad he won his case, but Paramount won the war because half of your life is not a fair trade off to “get paid”. Ellison has (uniquely) managed to live vicariously through himself. It is now what defines him and somewhat eclipses the caliber and quality of his work. He is complex, and his work is complex. I genuinely hope it brings him happiness, because that is something I have never seen in any of his interviews.
It’s hilarious to me to see so many little people angry that:
1) Ellison stood up and said what he would do;
2) Ellison succeeded.
He was right, and he won. It’s far from the first time and hopefully will not be the last.
Enjoy your sour grapes. :-)
Come on Ellison. I’m sure you can sue Trek for other things, too. Go for it!
Harlan Ellison has long fought for the principles (and the money) he believes in–before and after Star Trek.
While I disagree with some of his other beliefs in this area I have always admired him for the terrific writer he is and for speaking his mind. I, too, wish he would have learned to tone down the foul rhetoric because it does diminish his body of work that deserves all the praise it has gotten–but then, I guess he wouldn’t be Harlan.
I know from attending a couple of the cons in the 70s (pre-movie) and talking with some people who knew Harlan at that time he had many admirers and friends (including Isaac Asimov–another great defender of TOS). So, while his public persona seems rather crude he has cultivated some good relationships over the years (including, I suppose, all the women he claimed to have wooed!).
I am glad he won his lawsuit because I am sure from all I have read of him that he did have a contract that preserved most of the rights to his work subsequent to its original use (unlike a lot of writers–especially those who might have crossed over from the pulps to Hollywood in those days). It is only right that CBS/Paramount pay him (an essentially trifling amount according to what my wife used to see when she took care of author royalties for a publisher so it probably really was about principle) use of any of his original material (which Edith and the Guardian are both part of the original teleplay he wrote). Besides, I don’t hear much of uproar about Roddenberry writing unused lyrics to the TOS theme and thus forcing Alexander Courage to share half the royalties–so I think Harlan is entitled to get compensation for something that was actually used in Star Trek!
Harlan Ellison has long fought for the principles (and the money) he believes in–before and after Star Trek.
While I disagree with some of his other beliefs in this area I have always admired him for the terrific writer he is and for speaking his mind. I, too, wish he would have learned to tone down the foul rhetoric because it does diminish his body of work that deserves all the praise it has gotten–but then, I guess he wouldn’t be Harlan.
I know from attending a couple of the cons in the 70s (pre-movie) and talking with some people who knew Harlan at that time he had many admirers and friends (including Isaac Asimov–another great defender of TOS). So, while his public persona seems rather crude he has cultivated some good relationships over the years (including, I suppose, all the women he claimed to have wooed!).
I am glad he won his lawsuit because I am sure from all I have read of him that he did have a contract that preserved most of the rights to his work subsequent to its original use (unlike a lot of writers–especially those who might have crossed over from the pulps to Hollywood in those days). It is only right that CBS/Paramount pay him (an essentially trifling amount according to what my wife used to see when she took care of author royalties for a publisher so it probably really was about principle) use of any of his original material (which Edith and the Guardian are both part of the original teleplay he wrote). Besides, I don’t hear much of uproar about Roddenberry writing unused lyrics to the TOS theme and thus forcing Alexander Courage to share half the royalties–so I think Harlan is entitled to get compensation for something that was actually used in Star Trek!
Harlan was just jealous cause he couldn’t write a Trek to save his life.
Great! Now we Paramount can use the Guardian of Forever for Star Trek 2012, unsure the real origin stories of Spock, Kirk and McCoy are finally told, by wiping Nero from existence…
Crap… #66 should read, “Great! Now Paramount can use the Guardian of Forever for Star Trek 2012, ensure the real origin stories of Spock, Kirk and McCoy are finally told, by wiping Nero from existence…
Yep. Prevent Vulcan from ever being destroyed. Stop Kirk’s father from being killed… and above all else, get back to there being just one Star Trek universe to focus on.
If Harlan had handed over all the rights to CotEoF to Desilu and their successors, he wouldn’t have grounds to sue. I somehow doubt that his 1960s contract included huge numbers of clauses allowing CBS to exploit his characters, storylines and ideas on the internet, Blu-ray discs, licensed spin-off novels, comicbooks and so on. ;)
Harlan has always been sensible about money and would therefore have kept as many rights as possible.
AFAIK, since New Voyages/Phase II aren’t profit-making, they’re in an ‘OK Zone’, although I’m sure Harlan could kick off about it if he wanted to do that!
I think he’s done pretty well trading off the one episode he contributed to TOS, which was incidentally heavily rewritten. I could sympathise a little more if he didn’t come across as petulant and petty.
I’m glad it’s now settled and I look forward to not hearing from Ellison for a long time.
maybe he’ll stop crying now
i guess it is a blessing that a miserable curmudgeon like Mr. Ellison is also born with such prodigious talent. otherwise he’d simply be that jerk who lives in the neighborhood that no one will talk to, but about whom everyone gossips. fortunately for Harlan, i am sure he’ll easily find something else to complain about.
i guess it’s a pity that nothing else he’s ever created has earned him greater non-Sci-Fi recognition and, obviously for him, money. let’s hope that having the extra cash inspires him to share with us all some more of his incredible imagination. and not simply his nag-nag-nag negativism.
of course, it’s no sweat to me that he’s recovering this remuneration from those greedy, corporate-suits at paramount pictures (who barely ever treated gene roddenberry, star trek, or us star trek fans with any respect at all).
#44 – Saying “I don’t mean this to be a racist comment” before saying a racist comment doesn’t make it better. Anthony…I thought you deleted awful comments like this and blocked or warned users who were inflammatory, slanderous, or insulting.
I guess the settlement can buy a lot of Valtrex.
This guy is absolutely pathetic I truly feel sorry for him.
Harlan’s passion for nuisance suits and settlements is disgusting, but so is his personality as a whole.
I love Harlan Ellison. When people look back at the SF of the 20th and 21st centuries, his name and work will be one of the few that survives.
76. dmduncan: AGREED!
I sympathise with mr. ellison in this regard..even regarding his attitude..His attitude reminds me about how music and movie artists feel about their work being copied and shared on the internet..yeah they sound like they’re whining but you have to concider that this is the only way they make money and they don’t nessesarily have other work to fall back on.
I will watch the videos later. my girlfriend is watching seinfeld and dont want to disturb her with my trek stuff. she is the kind of gal who is a star wars fan but not a trek fan.. just what a geeky nerd like me loves!
#71. patrick,
I’d hazard a guess that his THE TERMINATOR agreement was likely more lucrative (deeper pockets in successful movies that become franchises) than whatever royalties he’s collected to date stemming from CotEoF (Although close to half a million up front versus steady income over time can be a difficult comparison to make.) and his subsequent legal actions with respect to TT definitely brought him more more notoriety among the non-SF aware public too.
And, oddly enough, that stemmed from his earlier work on THE OUTER LIMITS which had absolutely nothing to do with ST.
I have to agree with #76 & #77.
And to dispel this notion that he solely is motivated to do things for the money, one only need note the helming he did of the Southern California non-profit SF radio magazine HOUR 25 for Mike Hodel during and after the battle that show’s host lost with cancer.
Now when it comes to committing words to paper, the man is a wordsmith that deserves to be called both an artisan, and craftsman. What some regard as unfortunate is that he demands that you respect his works, and for most that only comes with the cleaving of their wallet.
Would the universe be a better place if he suffered those he regards as fools more diplomatically? Possibly. But I do know that he has wielded this apparent weakness as a strength that he hasn’t hesitated to bring to service in the cause of many an extremely talented writer driven to poverty and destitution by many suits in the megacorps that apparently do not suffer from this same weakness.
Re: 15 Darkwing — “ah yes, cordwainer bird and his lawsuit. i honestly don’t know what my opinion of him is. from what i’ve read and stuff, city on the edge of forever was drastically re-written by rodenberrry or something and so the one that we know and love isn’t realy all that much of ellison’s work. but i don’t know, i wasn’t there :)
Haven’t read the rest of the posts, so if I’m being repetitious, I do apologize.
Harlan published the original script back in the ’80s, a friend lent it to me (I’ll ask her for the title so everyone can look it up). It had a lot of good in it, AND a lot of bad. The good part was the very ballsy (especially for the ’60s) concept of drug dealing on the Enterprise. There was no accidental OD by Dr. McCoy, the drug dealer was about to be apprehended so he jumped ship and it was he that stopped Edith Keeler from her necessary demise. In so doing, the crew member was firmly entrenched in the gray zone between good guy and bad guy, very nice.
The bad part, a dumbass subplot on the Enterprise, now a pirate ship, concerning those characters who survived the reality change of the timestream interference (I forget how). The way K/S find Edith Keeler (because of the starburst pattern cloak she wears), stupid beyond belief. Then there’s the ridiculously pussified Spock who, every time he gets the aforementioned drug-dealer within reach, gets his ass kicked.
The romance is largely the same and there’s a nice epilogue in Kirk’s cabin between K & S.
It’s worth reading, even with the problems. If I get the title, I’ll post it here.
Cheers.
Just checked on Amazon: It’s “The City on the Edge of Forever” just search for Harlan’s stuff.
I can be a dope.
I have Harlan’s City book, but I haven’t read it yet. I’m going through a small mountain of Trek history and memoir books and that one is next after Inside Star Trek.
I’m not sure if he ever wrote down or published the treatment, but I would love to see the story he pitched to Paramount for the first Star Trek movie, the story where the exec wanted him to insert Mayans into the plot.
76 – What about Arthur C Clarke or Issac Asimov – far better writers than Ellison. or even Michael Crichton?
Joel1245
warning for trolling
racist comments are still racist even when you say you are not trying to be a racist
Clarke, Asimov & Heinlein were the early fathers of modern SF…Harlan led the “New Wave” of writers in the sixties notably by editing the Dangerous Visions series of anthologies (still waiting for “The Last Dangerous Visions”).
Earlier someone noted that Harlan’s writing is not only excellent but his essays are always thought-provoking. Although he influenced me in my early years I find myself on the opposite side of beliefs he advocated but still enjoy reading his works to challenge myself and not get stuck in a ghetto of like-minded writers or friends.
His original script for “City” was published a couple of times. First, it was published in a book edited by Roger Elwood titled “Six Science Fiction Plays” and then later as a stand alone work with additional back story by Harlan (in his unique and always controversial manner). I personally own both books (3 copies of the Elwood work) and got the hardcover autographed edition of the latter (I wonder how much commission I would need to give Harlan if I resell either of those??). The script is definitely an interesting read when comparing it to what made it on-screen. Harlan won his peers highest award for Best Original Teleplay for his version (he has won this award four times the last I heard and was the only one to have accomplished this feat at the time).
I guess you sense by now that I am a bit of an Ellison fan. :)
#65: “Harlan was just jealous cause he couldn’t write a Trek to save his life.”
Yep, that’s why he won awards for it – and in fact has won more writing awards, and sold more books, than you can imagine.
So, uh…where are yours? LOL
Clarke, Asimov, and Heinlein are great too. Ellison is most likely to be admired by people who are not fans of SF, I think. He writes complex thought provoking works. Fantastic, horrible, scary. There’s no one who does what he does that I know of.
I’ve absorbed a holographic fragment of his spirit; I have my own internal Harlan Ellison, which has helped me become much better in both my writing and my thinking.
And although I don’t always agree with him, I never dismiss what he has to say.
To # 65 And You Can?
It’s hard to imagine that some people will agree about Harlan and his fight with the studio and yet denegrate him for his “ATTITUDE” . Have they ever worked for the Studios at any time? I have and it’s just as bad as working for the Post Office, which I have also done. Most people in the supposed “high places” are psychic vampires just sucking the creative and economic soul out of anyone who works for them. Yes, the inevitable THEM. So hurrah for Harlan and for having the temerity to speak his mind. As far as the language, oh grow up y’all. Don’t pretend to be the morality police.
I have read Ellison’s work since I was 11 and it is amazing stuff. The info about the Terminator lawsuit involves two Outer Limits episodes written by him which is SOLDIER and DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND- both stories concern soldiers who travel back in time and fight it out in the present- DEMON’s protagonist was actually revealed to be a robot at the surprise ending, the similarities were too obvious that James Cameron had to have copied at least parts of the story that the court ruled in Ellison’s favor.
hmmm i wonder how long before Ellison tried to file lawsuits against every VIEWER of “his work” over “fair use” rights and other b.s. like that… how long before he sues everyone who has ever SPOKEN the EPISODE TITLE or of the concepts he wrote? how long before he sues and sues and sues until he destroys the genre of science fiction all together? this began as one man’s supposed quest for royalties but evolved into an Ahab-like quest for vengeance… Ellison isnt just greedy; by any psychiatrist’s definition, he has classic narcissistic tendencies combined with delusions of grandeur and a borderline psychopathic personality with a touch of a God Complex…he is mentally unstable and therefore belongs in a psychiatric hospital, as he shows many of the signs of a serial killer, although not manifested in a serial killer pattern…
I think that he deserves to be paid exactly what his contract or other union agreement states he is to be paid. Nothing more, nothing less. If he has a legitimate reason to file a suit because someone is not upholding their end of and agreement, SUE THE PANTS OFF THEM! On the other hand if he (or anyone) tries to file an ungrounded suit, they ought to be handed there hats in court.
Kick butt Harlan! Tip of the hat to al the writers who so often get shafted!
#90. TheMightyBruce,
Initially there was no legal action in THE TERMINATOR dispute because the evidence was so overwhelming in Ellison’s favor. They agreed to give him what he wanted. The legal sabers started rattling when videos started popping up without the agreed upon credit.
#91.,
I know public figures have to endure some indignities in print that the average person does not, but you have gone beyond the pale.
Way to go Harlan!
@96: Unlike the pointless abortion you just delivered, when Harlan rants it’s funny and he makes a valid point.
#37.
Good.
However, you also went on to claim “(they don’t, for instance, involve a time-traveling robotic assassin sent to kill a future leader).”
Neither did THE TERMINATOR. That movie’s plot involved a human looking robot killing the mother of the future leader before he was even conceived. What all three stories did have in common was a soldier from the future hunting his opponent in a future war down in the past.
Also, there was no legal action brought in the initial dispute as the LA TIMES misreported on July 7, 1991:
http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-07/entertainment/ca-2720_1_screen-credit
and later corrected 7 days later :
”FOR THE RECORD
An item in last week’s Film Clips stated that Harlan Ellison had sued the makers of the movie “The Terminator” over a credit. There was no lawsuit filed before an agreement was reached to list Ellison in the film’s credits.”
So all of your other spurious charges are baseless. The studio and Cameron had agreed that he was owed credit without taking it into court. The subsequent legal actions were spurred by videos being marketed without the agreed upon credit.
As a writer Ellison deserves to be paid, it’s just too bad he’s such a pr*ck about everything!
#97.,
I’m assuming you typoed? Because Balok’s “Way to go Harlan!” hardly seems a rant?
100: DEFINITELY a typo. Thanks. That was meant for 91…doublechecking…yep. 91. Sorry 96.
“The studio and Cameron had agreed that he was owed credit without taking it into court.”
Or, the studio calculated that it was cheaper to pay off Ellison than to pay a legal team. Whether Ellison deserved a credit any more than anyone else who had ever written time travel stories is a matter of opinion. Ellison just happens to be the one who is arrogant enough to believe (or at least to claim) that he owns certain ideas.
Regarding his creativity, yeah he’s creative — I’ve enjoyed some of his works — but he’s also dark and cynical. And I’d argue it is much easier to make dark, cynical works of art than any other kind. People (readers/viewers) are easily led to revulsion, but it is much harder to be led to enchantment. (Just take a photo of some guts, and it is disgusting. But try taking a photo that evokes love (and not in a saccarine way) — leagues more difficult.) Ellison took an easy route to his niche fame, creating his cynical persona and his bitter writings.
86 – He won awards when his screenplay was rewritten by Gene Roddenberry. And he even took credit for it! What a nice guy!
88 – I don’t get what you said. Harlan wrote ONE Trek screenplay, and it was rewritten. It still got an award, and he’s still been complaining about it for years.
#103 Roddenberry didn’t rewrite it. He ordered changes in it that others (Fontana, Coon, Nimoy and Shatner on set, etc.) ended up having to do. Roddenberry was always busy with other, erm, issues. Read Harlan’s book which essentially (and “Just”ly) covers the “making of” City. It’s a good read, and has the shooting and original scripts in it, I believe. One would say “read both” and you decide.
The key problem resulted when Roddenberry started outright lying that “Harlan had Scotty pushing drugs”, etc. and making up stuff about why City was rewritten. Had he just said “I was concerned about having bad apples in Starfleet, so the drug abuse angle had to be modified — we think however the accidental injection by McCoy added more to the story” instead, and then later said “I couldn’t have Kirk be weak at that point in the series” to explain the change in the ending… I think he never would have incurred quite the wrath of Harlan.
Gene making Harlan out to be stupid, was the real source of ire.
All Gene did was rewrite it so it fit in with his Trek universe. What’s wrong with that? Gene created Star Trek, yet I feel some of these people always want to discredit what he created. It’s really sad and petty. Harlan has legions of fans and books, but seems threatened by Trek.
I have read Ellison’s book, and I think the aired version made more impact. Kirk and Spock acted like Kirk and Spock.
#104.
Actually that fact that his original screenplay has been published has been a bit of a curse because his detractors use the fact that it’s so different from the final product to unfairly criticize him.
Truth is there were many rewrites by Ellison himself as was requested of him. To my knowledge the second complete final draft he wrote has never been published in its entirety. I don’t think it would be fair to say he wrote ONE Trek screenplay any more than it is to use the first one which he published to bash him for elements that don’t appear in it as we don’t have all the rewrites and drafts to definitively say what in the final product did or did not originate with him.
Obviously the courts and the WGA have backed him up so I’d say there’s more merit to the claim of his being the most responsible for the concepts in the final script than his naysayers would have us believe.
Well, if he felt so angered about it, he shuld have changed some names, and wrote a whole fiction book about it. I don’t know. I don’t care much for Ellison. I think Arthur Clarke is far superior.
Harlan rubbed me the wrong way years ago when he had a few down-grading and negative comments about Trek Fans, and when I saw his rant full of filth earlier this year, that sealed it. But if this is what it takes to get The Guardian Of Forever into the next Trek Film, so be it!
#108.
He did the next best thing:
http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/08/29/Harlan_Ellison_Wants_Paramount_To_Beam_Up_Royalties_For_Star_Trek_.htm
He published the original script and gained copyright because Desilu failed to live up to their end of the contract to do so. Ellison learned from his dealing with print publishers to always have a “copyright reverts to author on failure to publish” type clause in all his contracts.
Desilu dropped the ball but he didn’t.
Now I don’t know the nature of the two agreements he signed with Paramount but it appears he is the only party with copyrights to assert on prints of the episode prior to 1975. Now, I suspect Paramount has physical custody of all of those but I wouldn’t be surprised if some fans somewhere the 1970s squirreled away some of those prints from syndication. If they ever made it into Ellison’s hands he probably has the legal rights to copy and publish to DVD? Not that I imagine he would bother with his disdain for how his story ended up.
What I find disturbing is the implication that Paramount has not been releasing the complete episode because they didn’t have the copyright to it? One would imagine that the agreements with Ellison remedy that but how does one determine which home videos of CotEoF put out by Paramount are complete?
I’m always happy when a writer gets paid.
But having read both Ellison’s original work and Fontana’s rework, the aired version is a better story….especially within the confines of Star Trek and its characters.
#111.
I can’t imagine he’d ever do it but it would be interesting if all the filmed footage and outtakes for that episode could be found and turned over to Ellison to put out a “writer’s cut”, i.e. one as close to his original vision as the existing film would allow.
I respect the fact that Ellison added a distinctive element to the Trek story universe… but where is the line drawn? Does the production designer who actually made the darn set piece get credit? What about the composer, or the director?
What would happen if John de Lancie wanted royalties for every Q book his face was on, or any Q story, because he had such a part in giving life to the character?
Did David Gerrold get a royalty when a tribble was seen in ST III? Does Matt Jeffries estate get a cut when a ‘Jeffries Tube’ is mentioned? Does Brannon Braga get a kickback when there’s a novel with too much technobabble? Where does it end?
#113.,
Try reading reading THE COURTHOUSE NEWS story cited in post 110.
Also note, it is my understanding that Ellison wisely learned from his experience as a print writer to always have what I call a “failure to publish” clause in all his contracts so that the copyrights revert back to him when the entity responsible for stewarding his I.P. fails to actively pursue marketing it. Thus when DesiLu failed to file to copyright the episode or even report that it had ever been broadcast, it was his to claim; which he did by filing copyright (Back then copyrights were not automatic upon creation as they are now.) on the original script which he published.
As I tried to note in my earlier post, Harlan believes in keeping “possession” of his work rather than signing everything over to the publisher or producer. While we may differ (or not) with Harlan’s beliefs he is merely fighting for his rights as stipulated in the signed contracts. He is certainly more diligent in protecting his work when others “steal” it without properly acknowledging him as the source or simply paying for the right to reproduce it. I recently read a biography on Ray Bradbury and he had similar incidents with work used either without credit or proper compensation and Mr. Bradbury tried to amicably work out arrangements to right the wrongs but those also did not happen as he had hoped. Now, while Mr. Bradbury didn’t pursue legal action in all cases, he had the same concerns that Harlan does but Harlan has actually sought ethical and legal restitution.
As for the difference between Harlan’s written version of “City” and the produced version–I think it is hard for us fans to separate ourselves from the version we are most acquainted with and which was brought to life from a SCRIPT for a version that differs somewhat dramatically from the image in our minds. Thus, we are probably not very unbiased in our assessment of whether Harlan’s script was better or not. But, as I also pointed out, his peers voted the original unfilmed screenplay the best for that year (and this usually takes place in a rather anonymous manner–although I am not sure how you could hide the Star Trek association and Harlan’s involvement at that time but 1968-1969 was pre-internet days when there was more anonymity than today). So, while the filmed version worked very well for an actual Trek episode that does not mean Harlan’s written script was not likewise an excellent piece of prose in its own merits.
While I am not trying to be a member of some “morality” police, I do think that a civilized and intelligent society does not need to resort to base and crude language to make a point for the very reason it does alienate and turn people off to the message. I admire Harlan’s talent and his works and probably as a young rebel I even admired his extensive vocabulary but now with kids of my own and observing the response to Harlan over the years I realize he might have reduced his own impact as a talented writer by cussing people away. One of the things I enjoyed and appreciated about STIV:TVH was the societal commentary on the use of “colorful metaphors” because I thought (or took it) of it as a subtle jab at how we resort to words that ultimately reflect our base character rather than the noble one. STV:TFF ruined the commentary for me when Kirk starts cussing out Spock for not shooting Sybock–it seemed so totally opposite of what the message of STIV was on that subject.
Well, having said all of the above, I think Harlan is one of our great writers–right up there with the Asimovs, Clarkes, and Heinleins and other numerous sci-fi (and even non-sf writers as Ellison even made it into the Best American Stories of the Year anthology). Does that mean I agree with everything he has written, said or done over the years? No, but I personally have appreciated his voice because it has challenged my thinking and perspective so I hopefully do not embrace my beliefs without some critical thought. For that, I thank Harlan even if I have to agree that the filmed version of “City” was better. ;o)
Seems like a good time for me to stick up for my boy again.
Gene L. Coon did as much to shape the “Star Trek” that we know today than anyone. Far more than Fontana, for instance. He really ran the show for the meaty portion of season one, tweaking scripts, and improving Ellison’s story, in particular.
He invented Klingons, Khan, the Prime Directive, and shaped the character of Kirk to embody the Navy and Marine Corps officers he encountered in the South Pacific in WW2.
Coon had the misfortune to pass away in 1973. I often wonder how much better TMP would have been if Roddenberry had Coon to help develop the script. Coon was famous for his speed in both punching up, and turning around scripts. Coon also was heavily involved in developing the funny banter between Kirk, McCoy, and Spock. TMP could have used him.
Ellison may have written the lyrics to “City on the Edge of Forever”, but Coon was one of the musicians that made it sing.
116. Gene L. Coon
Rodders kept Robert Justman and a number of other Trek vets away from TMP. I think he wanted that film all to himself!
#116—-Love me some Gene L. Coon….Oorah!
But I have alot of respect for Dorothy Fontana as well. Not only was she perhaps the biggest influence (with all due respect to Leonard Nimoy) on the development of my favorite television character, but she was either a writer or script consultant on 36 episodes of TOS.
Of those 36 episodes, 18 of them would appear easily in my top 25 Star Trek episodes of all time, and a couple more of them would be right there on the fringe. I could never downplay the “quality” of the work she put into Star Trek.
Don’t get me wrong. Gene L. Coon was the greatest producer Star Trek ever had…no question at all in my mind about it.
As for which “script consultant”—-Coon or Fontana—-did the most to rework Ellison’s TCOTEOF script to suit the characters and the world of Star Trek….I don’t know, and I’m not sure that it matters. All I know is that Star Trek would never have been as good as it was without either one of them….
The estate of the designer of the ship, Matt Jeffries, should sue for every instance where the ship has been used in any media over the years, if this lawsuit creates precedent.
As abrasive and offensive as Ellison can be, I think people are confused when they spread fear about a possible “precedent”.
I think that Ellison’s contract was unlike any other during that time. What is a legal basis for his contract-based claim is not something present in those of other artists working during that time. It is therefore impossible for there to be a “precedent” set by this settlement.
The copyright for the characters created by Ellison in TCOTEOF were reverted back to the author, which isn’t the case with artists like Jeffries, etc. They (the benficiaries Matt’s estate) simply wouldn’t have the same basis for claims. It isn’t the same thing, legally speaking.
Roddenberry was a Ferengi, always thinking about the latinum.
I haven’t read Harlan’s script, though I have it and it’s next up. I am reading right now how Herb Solow felt bad that the filmed version of City had almost nothing left of the beauty of Harlan’s original script. Don’t know what he means, but I’ll find out soon.
But it was probably the most emotionally powerful episode of TOS.
It would have been nice for Jefferies to get a share of the profits of the AMT Enterprise model kits, which he worked very closely with AMT on. Nope. He got hosed on that.
#121—-You’ll probably find, as I did, that if read objectively as pure prose, it’s a great piece of work. However, I think you’ll find it obvious that it wasn’t going to work within the confines of Star Trek and its established characters quite as well as the aired version.
I know that Ellison was pissed about it, but I have never had any doubt that it was better for the show in the end. Roddenberry, Coon, Fontana, etc. all had the best interests of their own characters and universe in mind (as they should have)—-and it shows in the final product.
118
You know, looking at my original post, I think I was out of line with Fontana. I should not have singled her out. You make a great point about her importance to Spock, in particular. As you were!
#118.,
I agree with you so much that I couldn’t possibly agree more.
It is the primary basis of my problem with Mr. Orci’s claim that because he ran the death of the planet Vulcan by Mr. Nimoy that that was all that’s necessary to determine whether it would leave the continuing epic narrative that is Trek severely impaired.
Excuse me? For one proposed series and two movies Nimoy lobbied to kill his character off. Then when he got what he wanted, he changed his mind.
I love Nimoy the actor/director – I just don’t think his strong suit is screenwriting, especially with regards to killing things off.
#125—-I think that Orci and Kurtzman were free to have Vulcan destroyed with or without Nimoy’s approval. The timeline was altered, so they could do anything they wanted. And it doesn’t bother me at all. I’ve already seen “Amok Time”, “Journey To Babel”, and TMP. The destruction of Vulcan (and the death of Amanda Grayson) in the altered timeline does nothing to change that. What it does for the character of Spock (Quinto) going forward is make things that much more interesting, IMO. For Spock Prime, it really brought “home” the consequences of Nero’s actions, for which Spock Prime (justifiably so or not) felt some degree of responsibility and guilt (even if that guilt stemmed solely from the inaction of his father’s people in the late 24th Century).
I agree with Bob in that this event, more than anything, makes a loud and clear statement that things in the altered timeline are more than just subtly different. They are monumentally different. Good. I think that the “altered” version of Star Trek needs that.
As for Nimoy’s approval, if it bolsters Orci’s confidence that he did the right thing with the story—-great! I can hardly blame Bob for putting more stock in that than he does in the opinions of a few whining fans on the internet.
#120. Closettrekker once opined “I think that Ellison’s contract was unlike any other during that time.”
You think?,
http://articles.latimes.com/1996-09-08/entertainment/ca-41581_1_star-trek?pg=3
“Leonard Nimoy’s lawsuit with Paramount began over a Heineken beer ad that appeared on billboards in England. Henry Fonda pointed out the ubiquitous ads to him while they were visiting London. On the billboard, there were three images of Spock: The first showed his famous pointy ears drooping; the second had Spock sipping a beer, his ears at half-mast; and the third featured Spock with an empty mug and fully erect ears.
Upon returning to Los Angeles, Nimoy discovered that Paramount had actually nixed the ad campaign but that the advertiser had gone ahead anyway. Nonetheless, Nimoy’s attorney discovered that his contract with the series forbade the studio to use his image after the show had been canceled, an agreement that had been ignored many times over with sundry products.” – David Kronke, LOS ANGELES TIMES from September 08, 1996 edition
#126.,
I still contend that when it comes to things Vulcan, it is better to approach it from a most logical angle like consulting Fontana prior over an emotional need to bolster one’s confidence after the fact as in his attempt to use Nimoy’s imprimatur.
Myself? I’m getting rather bored of the “death and destruction” cloud that’s been attached to the Spock Prime character since Phase II. I get the current “he has to pay for his resurrection” thematic demands but why pass that baton onto a new young Spock who hasn’t even (and may never) reaped the benefit of a Genesis resurrection?
And if you claim you aren’t making your movie for the old guard but a new audience then blowing up Vulcan is a meaningless gesture as some sort of a signal as it holds no significance for the new audience.
#127—”I still contend that when it comes to things Vulcan, it is better to approach it from a most logical angle like consulting Fontana prior over an emotional need to bolster one’s confidence after the fact as in his attempt to use Nimoy’s imprimatur.”
I would have been happy to see Fontana consulted on the script, but she wasn’t a part of that process. For obvious reasons, few people were. The one relevant personality who was involved in the film was Leonard Nimoy. It makes perfect sense that Orci would be happy upon receiving his blessing. Why shouldn’t he?
” I get the current “he has to pay for his resurrection” thematic demands but why pass that baton onto a new young Spock who hasn’t even (and may never) reaped the benefit of a Genesis resurrection?”
I never felt it had anything to do with that. I don’t expect Quinto’s Spock to experience the exact same things as Spock Prime. That would be rather dull. I think Quinto’s Spock should be developed differently, but still in many ways resemble the character we’ve known for 45 years. Young Spock has his own path—-one which is already very different due to the loss of his mother and his father’s homeworld. I also feel that the relationship between Spock and Sarek would most likely be different this time around as well. The bond between them would certainly be different, especially given the events surrounding Spock’s rescue of his father from a dying planet and the subsequent very emotional interaction they have following Spock’s self-removal from command.
I expect “this Spock” to have his own trials, very much set apart from some of the struggles of Spock Prime. The destruction of Vulcan (and the loss of Amanda) in this timeline was a good way to establish that.
#128. Closettrekker relates “I never felt it had anything to do with that. I don’t expect Quinto’s Spock to experience the exact same things as Spock Prime. ”
Neither do I. But these writers’ universe makes it emphatically clear that its Spock suffers for whatever karmic debt that has been amassed by Spock Prime in his actions and deeds – one of which actually caused their universe to be.
That has to be a tremendous burden on Spock Prime, to feel as responsible as a god for the existence of everything, the way it all turned out and yet disdain it as he does all positions of command. I wonder how he struggles with the temptation to use his advanced knowledge to play a god in an attempt to set everything right? It seems as if the Genesis Device could play a big role in restoring Vulcan and completing Spock Prime’s story there?
I guess for me, Spock Prime’s story isn’t complete just yet. It will be interesting to see what the future brings from either CBS or Paramount..
#129—-”That has to be a tremendous burden on Spock Prime, to feel as responsible as a god for the existence of everything, the way it all turned out and yet disdain it as he does all positions of command. I wonder how he struggles with the temptation to use his advanced knowledge to play a god in an attempt to set everything right?”
Except that he is quite undeserving of bearing that guilt. Not that it has been fully satisfied (which is why I think he is dedicating himself to the resettlement of his father’s people), but I think the extent of his “god playing” will be his interference in making sure that Jim Kirk took command of the Enterprise, and had the necessary resources to defeat the villain Nero—who is the *real* responsible party in the catostrophic destruction of Vulcan and the murder of billions of people.
“It seems as if the Genesis Device could play a big role in restoring Vulcan and completing Spock Prime’s story there?”
That would be a stretch on many levels. First of all, Spock Prime already indicated through the dialogue in ST09 that he had located a suitable planet. Second, we all know that the Gensis Device ultimately failed, being proven unstable due to the use of protomatter. From 2286 onward, no further mention of that technology ever being tamed or made practical is made in canon. In fact, the only mention of the Genesis Device after TVH is over a century later in an episode of VOY—in which Captain Janeway references Marcus’ technology in a negative manner as irresponsible science and something which was dangerously powerful. Furthermore, Spock Prime would have to not only solve the problems associated with it, but create it from scratch without the benefit of Carol and David Marcus’ research and trials (which, even if David is conceived at all, would be decades after the point in which the story in ST09 leaves off).
I think the relevant point in the resolution of the Genesis storyline (TWOK-TVH) is that Dr. McCoy was right all along about it…Although it ultimately restored life to Spock before its complete failure, it was the existence and deployment of the device which caused his death in the first place.
“I guess for me, Spock Prime’s story isn’t complete just yet. ”
I’ve seen others make that contention, but I think having already established a place/purpose for himself in this altered timeline, I don’t see any real loose ends there. I think it’s time for the new cast to stand on their own feet.
#130.,
You know even though Marcus claimed it was a failure and unstable, the planetary body created in the process, itself, evolved to a state of relative geologic stability. By that, I mean it didn’t blow up or disintegrate – It became molten. And we know from a planet visited in ToS (Excalbia), our own discoveries of extremophiles on the planet Earth, and the fact that the lifeforms themselves on the Genesis planet were hyperevolving, that that molten state wasn’t in and of itself necessarily an impediment to life.
It might have been a failure to achieve all that its dead inventor had dreamed but not necessarily a failure to achieve the next step: a planet from nothing habitable to some forms of life – possibly even intelligent ones from Excalbia.
My take on the matter is that the Genesis planet kept its forbidden status but was studied extensively in the intervening years by the Federation, and much was learned. Because of its status as a political hot potato, it serves them to let everyone think of it as an utter failure when, in fact, much progress had been made in the intervening years. Spock Prime, with his connection to it, has kept up.
Spock Prime may have found a suitable planet on which the survivors can live, but it could turn out to be an impossible place from which the Vulcan culture can thrive – as it must.
I suppose time and sequels will tell.
#131—-”My take on the matter is that the Genesis planet kept its forbidden status but was studied extensively in the intervening years by the Federation, and much was learned. Because of its status as a political hot potato, it serves them to let everyone think of it as an utter failure when, in fact, much progress had been made in the intervening years. Spock Prime, with his connection to it, has kept up.”
While certainly not an impossible scenario, again, I have to think that it’s a stretch. Once again, the only further mention of the “Genesis” technology and research in canon (at least following the conclusion of that story arc) is one which suggests that, in the late 24th Century, the whole thing was regarded as irresponsible.
“It might have been a failure to achieve all that its dead inventor had dreamed but not necessarily a failure to achieve the next step: a planet from nothing habitable to some forms of life…”
That would contradict certain stories (in TNG, for example) in canon which indicate that, even by the 24th Century, habitable worlds are sought out by the Federation—-not that inhospitable planets are made to be able to support life. There is no canonical evidence that any progress was made in that direction following the failure of “Genesis”.
But beyond that, Spock Prime extrapolating the theories and science behind Carol’s ideas and putting them to use would negate the message already sent by the TWOK-TSFS-TVH story arc—-that Dr. McCoy was correct….Neither Humanity, its allies, nor its enemies, are equipped to handle such responsibility. Even if it were possible that there had been clandestine exploration of the Genesis technology all along (and that Spock Prime was privy to it), I don’t think it serves anyone to contradict that message…Might as well “clone” the dead Vulcans…I don’t think the application of that science would be deemed any less irresponsible.
“Spock Prime may have found a suitable planet on which the survivors can live, but it could turn out to be an impossible place from which the Vulcan culture can thrive – as it must.”
I’m not sure what benefit to the story could be afforded by Spock Prime’s potential failure in securing a place where Vulcan culture will thrive—-at least as much as possible considering its status at this point.
The tone of his statement (that he already had a place in mind) suggests to me that it may very well be a familiar place to Star Trek fans…I even thought for a moment that he might be speaking of some “down the road” reunification with the Romulans—-especially given to what Spock Prime has been applying himself prior to that planet’s demise. That, however, would be a tricky story to tackle in the (albeit altered) 23rd Century.
“I suppose time and sequels will tell.”
That seems to be where we can agree.
Fun with Numbers
Paramount’s 3Q is in and it is reported that they saw a $69 million profit built on the performance of GI JOE, ROTF and ST combined.
Now compare that with the current performance of PARANORMAL ACTIVITY using the old school method of calculating profits by subtracting 3 times its budget which comes out to a total of $45,000 from its box office. That one picture has generated $85 million (and still growing) in profits besting the “HUGE” box office profits of all 3 Paramount blockbusters combined.
It seems reasonable to expect that there is going to be pressure on all of the big P’s productions next year to do more with less.
Oddly, enough I think the ST sequel may benefit from being delayed as this impetus may dissipate by the time it gets to bat.