VIDEO: JJ Abrams Talks Klingons In Star Trek 2009 (and Sequel) | TrekMovie.com
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VIDEO: JJ Abrams Talks Klingons In Star Trek 2009 (and Sequel) November 17, 2009

by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Abrams,Star Trek (2009 film),Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

On Monday JJ Abrams appeared on  G4 TV’s Attack of the Show to promote the arrival of Star Trek on home video. He mostly went over old ground, but did have some interesting things to say about Klingons that were cut from his first film, but may be showing up in his second Trek. See below for video

 

JJ and G4 talking Klingons

Video GameE3 2009Attack of the Show

Highlights

 

Here is more from the deleted Klingon scenes on the Star Trek DVD and Blu-ray.

Star Trek – DVD Bonus Footage | Movies & TV | SPIKE.com

 

Star Trek is coming home
Star Trek hits home video on Tuesday, pick it up at Amazon.

Blu-ray DVD
3-disk set

2-disk

1-disk

 

Comments

1. Chris M - November 17, 2009

Bring on the Klingons in the next STAR TREK I say! :)

2. The Original Animated Next Generation Deep Space Voyager Enterprise - November 17, 2009

The release of this movie on Blu-Ray is enough for me to impulsively buy a player for it (thanks to working uber-overtime at work I can do that, gotta love working in the health insurance industry). Sadly it won’t be until this Saturday I can do that. Can’t wait to see the whole deleted Rura Penthe scene.

3. Petey - November 17, 2009

Klingons as an ally, maybe? Against a new threat to the galaxy – anything but the Borg, of course.

4. The TOS Purist aka The Purolator - November 17, 2009

I don’t know why this idiot felt the need to “cheat” with the foreheads in the first place. It’s the TOS Era. Klingons have smooth foreheads. It’s not open to discussion.

5. Cheve - November 17, 2009

Not necesarily all the Klingons have smooth foreheads.

6. The Last Maquis - November 17, 2009

Too bad the plot was not included in the DVD release;)

7. HotStove - November 17, 2009

#4 – “TOS purist” is a contradiction in terms. Putting aside that Star Trek is just entertainment, didn’t “Enterprise” put that whole smooth/ridged Klingon thing to bed? And, putting aside that, isn’t it a little racist to think that every being in a certain race looks exactly the same?

And, putting aside EVERYTHING, you actually think Abrams is an idiot? Sheesh, takes one to know one, I guess.

IDIC, what a concept.

8. Max Loef - November 17, 2009

i already have the dvd..like for a week been out in the netherlands for a while now O.o got the enterprise miniature :)

9. greenapple7 - November 17, 2009

^6??
That movie was so good that I can’t even understand the joke…it’s like saying “I don’t like Krabby Patties!”
“The only people that don’t like like Krabby Patties are people who have n’t tried (or accepted in this case) them, Squidward!”

I say something must must must happen with the Vulcan because they set it up and it would be a plot hole not to deal with that.

10. Mitch - November 17, 2009

Thanks to Ron Moore and a terrible decision to make the ridges part of the story, Klingons need to have smooth heads in the Abramsverse. Roddenberry had the right idea when he said that Klingons always looked that way, and it was only the makeup. It was a good off camera excuse that I think as fans, we could buy.

Then Ron Moore decided to make it canon that the ridges were a legit change, and Enterprise made it worse by trying to explain it.

I hate the notion that “some Klingons have ridges and some don’t.” That’s dumb. Worse is that Kor, Koloth and Kang had ridges on DS9, which was never explained.

The way Abrams dealt with it in the cut scene worked though. The helmets were a smart idea.

I don’t think there would be much controversy if Abrams uses smooth headed Klingons, but there WOULD be controversy if he uses the ridges.

Thank Ron Moore for that one.

11. InfiniteMonkey - November 17, 2009

I think they should have space vampires and zombies just to throw everyone off! LOL!

GO STAR TREK!!!

12. SChaos1701 - November 17, 2009

4

Shut up.

13. PJ - November 17, 2009

man, if chris pine is actually dating olivia munn from attack of the show, he’s one lucky guy. or for some, she’s one very luck chick.

14. Pat D. - November 17, 2009

Paging Dr. Okrand!

15. EM - November 17, 2009

I bought a blu ray plalyer a couple of weeks ago in anticipation of the release of this movie on disc! Now my wife wants me to wait for Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGHH!!
It’s unfortunate that some people take Star Trek so seriously and get so easily upset that not everything stayed the same as the old Star Trek that most people aren’t interested in seeing. Smooth foreheads, ridged….not important.
By the way….what’s a Krabby Patty?

16. No Khan - November 17, 2009

We’ve Got to have the Klingons in 2. I just want a more civilized Klingon society that seemed like it could attain space flight yet in line with TOS Klingons. It seems the route they are going. Not the Neanderthal Klingons from TNG.

17. No Khan - November 17, 2009

I want to add the Bumps are what Roddenberry wanted in TMP. To give the Klingons a more distinct look. Thats the way they should be from now on. There really shouldn’t be any further debate on that.

18. Allen Williams - November 17, 2009

Enterprise never did exactly make it clear if the virus was just some of them or not. For all we know the smooth heads were always on the front lines (the ones going after the enterprise) in order to prove that their hearts were still klingon. If thats the case, it might be awsome to see a mix between smooth and bumpy klingons in the next movie.

19. Closettrekker - November 17, 2009

#4—“I don’t know why this idiot felt the need to “cheat” with the foreheads in the first place.”

There is certainly no cause for flaming. Making the creative decision to compromise between the physical appearances of TOS-era and movie-era Klingons hardly warrants being called an ‘idiot’, whether you would have made a different choice or not.

“It’s the TOS Era. Klingons have smooth foreheads. It’s not open to discussion.”

Canonically speaking, it most certainly is ‘open to discussion’.

While Gene Roddenberry preferred to see it as though Klingons had always looked as they did in TMP, later incarnations of Star Trek drew attention to the fact that Klingons from this era seemed to be missing the forehead ridges seen in that species a mere two and a half years after the end of the five-year mission and from that point forward.

While the writers on DS9 made light of it and left the question unresolved, ENT tackled it head on—-providing a once-and-for-all canon solution for those who had to have one.

Simply put, some Klingons would still be afflicted during the five-year mission, while others might not…and given that Kor, Kang, and Koloth (who were obviously ridgeless before) are all depicted in the 24th Century as having developed ridges—-it is clear that the “affliction” had been fully eradicated by that time.

I have some mild concern myself as to how Bad Robot will depict the Klingons, but it has nothing at all to do with their physical appearance.

I want the more colorful, cunning, well-spoken, and diverse villains of TOS—-not the grunting, growling, and howling cavemen in space portrayed in the spinoff series. Whether the Klingons depicted in the 23rd Century have ridges or not makes no difference to me.

20. CmdrR - November 17, 2009

7- “didn’t “Enterprise” put that whole smooth/ridged Klingon thing to bed?”

Judging from the rest of these posts, it got up for a drink of water.

PLEASE, only do Klingons if they have actual character. NO MORE ST:III Klingbots.

21. Tony Whitehead - November 17, 2009

If they present the Klingons like the namby pampy ones in the cut scene, I am not interested. Kill three Klingons and you have a successful prison break? C’mon. Also, if you didn’t actually know that they were Klingons, you wouldn’t get the connection to this masked “300” reject. Back to the drawing board, guys. It was good to be cut from the film. It should have never been shot.

22. Big Bill C. - November 17, 2009

I agree with #17. The Klingons of TOS were more like a fascist regime out to conquer the galaxy through military might. They were even willing to use torture (i.e. Kor’s Mind Sifter from “Errand of Mercy”) as a means to achieve their aims. They were eloquent yet menacing. The TNG era Klingons came across as mindless neanderthal brutes, and it was hard to believe that they ever even invented the wheel, let alone space travel.

23. Jamjumetley - November 17, 2009

It’s NOT a reboot!

24. Imrahil - November 17, 2009

It’s NAHT a TUMAH.

25. TOS Fan - November 17, 2009

#16

EXACTLY! The bumpy forehead was a very early thing (the first movie!) AND it was what Roddenberry himself (peace be upon him) wanted them to look like.

I do not understand the mentality that says “a lack of budget in the TV Show MUST dictate what all future Trek projects are allowed to do!” If Roddenberry himself didn’t think that way, and made things better as soon as he had the money and freedom, who do we think we are??

26. Zebonka - November 17, 2009

Woo. Just because Old Spock knows that the two races can get along doesn’t mean everyone else will catch on so fast.

27. Closettrekker - November 17, 2009

#19—Just what exactly does “namby pampy” mean?

The TOS-era Klingons were diverse. The only things that Kor, Kras, Koloth, Arne Darvin, and Kang had in common was that they all served the Klingon Empire. Klingons (nor any other species, for that matter) should not be (and in TOS, certainly were not) drawn from a cookie-cutter.

Kor was as charming, unpretentious, and eloquent as he was ruthless, cunning, and brutal.

Koloth was somewhat sniveling, but equally well-spoken, and I got the feeling that he could be both vicious (even if only in delegation to Korax) and cunning if needed.

Kras and Darvin were both conniving cowards, with the latter being about as menacing as Mickey Mouse.

Kang, like Kor, was every bit the match for Captain Kirk—both as a tactician and as a leader of men in conflict.

28. TOS Fan - November 17, 2009

It IS a reeboot! :)

Honestly, does anyone REALLY think that the success of this film or its sequels is going to make anyone at Paramount think that they should return to any of the original shows? Or set a new show/movie in the 24th century where TNG/VOY left off and leave everything exactly the same as it was after Nemesis, as if these new movies never happened?? Holding to delusions like these is not healthy. It’s better for everyone if we all just accept the fact that there is now an Abrams-verse and all Trek projects in the near future will be taking place there! :)

29. Closettrekker - November 17, 2009

I picked up my copy at midnight, and before I went to bed, I watched the deleted scenes in full.

What I liked about the Klingon scene was the depiction of the Klingon interrogator as being calm and even offering of accomodations in return for compliance when he felt it was needed. He did not howl, get drunk and eat any live food, sing any goofy songs, or threaten anyone with some ridiculously archaic ritual sword. With that said, without any realistic expectations for cooperation from Nero, he was fully prepared to make him suffer…and most callously.

I hope that is an indication that Bad Robot Klingons will not be as cartoonishly portrayed as their Berman-era predecessors.

Guys….I beg of you….no singing.

I also like the beard—–definitely an homage to TOS.

30. Driver - November 17, 2009

I thought I saw the Duras sisters in the trailer for Bitch Slap. Anyway, got my Blu with the replica, who-ho!

31. Kirk's Kid - November 17, 2009

I’m wondering why they changed the name of Jim’s older brother to Johnny. Everybody knows it was Sam. That really threw us when we read the novelization.

The cut Klingon scenes had a real “Lord of the Rings” feel. It would be cool to see someone make a Star Trek epic with several three-four hour movies.

32. PJ - November 17, 2009

(#25) nicely put! now all i have to do is get through the day and pass room inspection & then its off base so i can pick up my 3 disk set and the art book if i can find it at barnes & noble.

33. Mitch - November 17, 2009

23–the unfortunate part is that it’s not the TOS TV show that created the ridge problem–it was DS9 and Enterprise.

Gene Roddenberry had it right when he basically said, “just pretend they had the ridges in the first place, because that’s what I would have done had we had the budget.”

That was good enough, and something even the biggest fan of canon would have trouble disputing. After all, nothing in the show contradicted that.

Until Ron Moore decided to make a joke about it and create a problem where none existed. And Enterprise made it worse by even attempting to deal with it–unless of course JJ abides by that, and we see smooth ridged Klingons in this movie.

I could even accept that some have ridges and some don’t–if not for another Ron Moore mistake–having Kor, Koloth and Kang appear.

Ultimately, is this the worst thing they can do? No. Is this as big of a deal as Shatner not being in the movie? No.

But at the same time, what would be the big deal if they USED the smooth heads?

34. Bill Peters - November 17, 2009

Funny I like the Klingon’s from next Gen they don’t at all seem like Neanderthals and they have Honor and are more like Knights from the Dark Ages on Earth, with power, I think we should have a mix of both. I like the Reboot and I for one look forward to the next movie!

35. Closettrekker - November 17, 2009

#24—-I don’t think the fact that this film (quite canonically) establishes an alternate timeline going forward qualifies it as a reboot. A traditional reboot involves disregarding previously established continuity—–whereas the story in ST09 not only chooses not to disregard it, but actually depends upon it in order to tell its own story.

Without everything established previously in 5 live action tv series and 10 films—-events in the Star Trek Universe would not unfold in the manner which ultimately produces the very alternate timeline to which we refer. Therefore, each (good or bad) episode and/or film set in the Prime timeline is crucial to setting the stage for ST09—–which is precisely what qualifies it as a sequel, and disqualifies it as a traditional reboot. Mislabeling it as such, IMO, places it in the same category of ‘Batman Begins’—-in which all previously established continuity is indeed disregarded. The audience is basically asked to pretend that nothing they saw before in the franchise ever happened. Audience members in ST09 are not asked to do this—-although they are not required to be familiar with it in order to understand it either.

I can live with the term “functional reboot” to a certain degree—-as it has *some* of the properties of a reboot, in allowing the storyline to begin anew without the hinderance of established continuity, but without pretending that what we have seen in the past never happened in this fictional universe. Even the characters themselves acknowledge within the dialogue of the film that they are existing in what they describe on the bridge as an “alternate reality”, and that other versions of themselves have lived their lives under different circumstances.

My best description (and the one I believe to be most accurate) of ST09 is as an unconventional sequel, and I actually think that this move was quite clever in establishing a way to tell stories about younger versions of Star Trek’s most popular characters, but without lacking the element of dramatic jeopardy or being potentially limited by some rather obscure 45-year old line of dialogue from a television series.

Continuity is preserved (as all of it is required to set up the story in ST09), and yet the writers can go in any direction with these characters they so choose. The writers have used canon (as the notion that interference with the past can result in an alternate timeline is itself canon, and has been since the first season of TOS) to circumvent its own boundaries an tell a series of original tales featuring Trek’s most dynamic characters…all without violating the sanctity of continuity by suggesting to millions of fans that they should pretend that none of it ever happened.

Brilliant….yet everyday I see them called viciously referred to as “lazy”, “uninspired”, or the like by some fans of the very franchise they quite frankly help rescue from near death after what was, IMO, about two decades of downhill storytelling….What a shame.

Reboot? What was “rebooted” in this fan was genuine interest and hope for where Star Trek will go from here—–enough to prompt me to pay to see a Star Trek movie in theaters (4 times at that) for the first time since 1991, and rush to my local Best Buy store at midnight to grab the 3-disc Bluray set. Like in the months leading up to its release, I felt like a kid again last night setting my cell phone alarm in order to wake up and be the first in my neighborhood to get a new toy.

36. Closettrekker - November 17, 2009

#28—“now all i have to do is get through the day and pass room inspection & then its off base so i can pick up my 3 disk set and the art book if i can find it at barnes & noble.”

Lol. I remember days like that! Where are you stationed?

37. John from Cincinnati - November 17, 2009

30.

Closet your point is well made that ST09 is not a classic reboot and therefore certain “elements” need to remain true to TOS. It is an alternate universe, not a new universe. There is still Kirk, Spock, McCoy and the Enterprise so why wouldn’t there be Talosians, Tholians, Tellarites, Gorn, Khan, Squire of Gothos, Miri, etc etc.?

38. ensign joe - November 17, 2009

#32

I know why there wouldn’t be Vulcans..

39. John Gill - November 17, 2009

While I have always been a Star Trek purist to the core, those Klingons in that cut scene were a bit weak…
I remember the first time I saw “Day Of The Dove” on TV, I was just a kid, Kang scared the crap out of me in his first scene, just the tone of his voice was enough to scare me!

40. AJ - November 17, 2009

I agree re: old school Klingons being the way forward.

I’m sure the boys can write both old and new-school, but it would be nice to flesh the Klingons out either way.

The Bermanverse Klingons started their descent into bozoland in that ep. where Riker serves aboard a BoP as First Officer. Let’s pretend those Klingons never happened. Give us Klingons with diverse personalities and talents, ruthlessness and the ability to emote (fear, sadness) without being soused on alcohol.

41. Shatner_Fan_Prime - November 17, 2009

#30 “Reboot? What was ‘rebooted’ in this fan was genuine interest and hope for where Star Trek will go from here—–enough to prompt me to pay to see a Star Trek movie in theaters (4 times at that) for the first time since 1991, and rush to my local Best Buy store at midnight to grab the 3-disc Bluray set. Like in the months leading up to its release, I felt like a kid again last night setting my cell phone alarm in order to wake up and be the first in my neighborhood to get a new toy.”

Well said, my friend. You’re right. The people who argue that JJ killed Star Trek amaze me. Quite the opposite!

42. DAYXDAY - November 17, 2009

Forgive my ignorance, but I don’t own a blu-ray player. Will these same extras be on the standard DVD?

43. OneBuckFilms - November 17, 2009

#30 – You sir, are absolutely right. I’m absolutely onboard with JJ Abrams’ reincarnation of Star Trek.

Most of the Star Trek fans I know personally LOVE the film, and I saw it 10 times on the big screen, 5 of which were in IMAX (the way to see it).

And people who are NOT Star Trek fans liked or loved it.

44. AJ - November 17, 2009

Initial reviews are stupendous. Digital Bits gave it an ‘A’ for content and an ‘A’ for A/V quality. Other sites concur.

45. StarTrekkie - November 17, 2009

Forget BluRay, it’s available in HD on iTunes. That’s what I would get.

46. Trekenstein - November 17, 2009

#24. “Honestly, does anyone REALLY think that the success of this film or its sequels is going to make anyone at Paramount think that they should return to any of the original shows?”

I MUST SAY I AGREE WITH THIS. Paramount says the old universe is still there, but I doubt we’ll officially be visiting it any time soon, if ever. I prefer to look at this as though the “alternate” universe has simply wiped over the old one as a result of time travel, just like in “City On The Edge of Forever”. It’s just easier than trying to understand why this new “parallel” universe is so different than the original one from the start.

47. Closettrekker - November 17, 2009

#32—-“There is still Kirk, Spock, McCoy and the Enterprise so why wouldn’t there be Talosians, Tholians, Tellarites, Gorn, Khan, Squire of Gothos, Miri, etc etc.?”

Oh, there absolutely would be, although their fates (in some cases) would not be immune to the effects of the timeline incursion.

For example, although Talos IV would no doubt still be there—–as would Vina—-it is unlikely that the new timeline would allow there to have been a visit to that planet by the Enterprise under Christopher Pike’s command and with a young science officer named Spock. After all, according to the alternate timeline, Spock is programming and helping to administer the KM test at Star Fleet Academy during the time he would otherwise have travelled to Rigel VII and Talos IV, respectively. It seems that the events of 2233 set another chain of events in motion which precluded that from happening as it did before in the Prime Timeline.

As for the Gorn, while surely they still exist in this timeline, the circumstances under which they come into contact with the Federation may be drastically altered. Who is to say that the UFP will ever establish that outpost in what the Gorn consider their sovereign space, and if they do, who is to say that the Metrons will just so happen to be there monitoring and interfering with what transpires as a result?

Likewise with the planet whose distress signal led the Enterprise to Miri… Presumably, that distress signal had been running for sometime before the Enterprise just happened to pick it up in what Kirk described as “the far reaches of the Galaxy”. It could be received much sooner in this timeline, or never at all for that matter.

Still, other events would no doubt be unchanged to a certain point.

The SS Botany Bay would still be adrift in space with its genetically enhanced company aboard in cryogenic freeze—–but the notion that (or the manner in which) it will be discovered is completely up in the air.

48. cugel the clever - November 17, 2009

It was a brilliant idea in the film for the Klingons to be masked. TOS clearly established that the forehead ridges were absent during the early Kirk days and ENT established the reason for this, and DS9 also implied that the lack of ridges was an embarassing episode in Klingon history. Therefore, it makes sense that masks with forehead ridges might actually be a standard clothing “accessory” for ridgeless Klingons.

That’s my interpretation of the masks :)

49. ClassicTrek - November 17, 2009

Dear Mr Abrams,

Please NO Klingons for the next movie. We need something new and exciting. Im bored with them.

Greg
UK

50. Captain Hackett - November 17, 2009

Bring in Klingons!

I am going to get my Blu-ray Star Trek DVD for my birthday which is TODAY.

What a perfect gift! :D

51. EFFeX - November 17, 2009

Bring on the Klingons and please not the ones that were going to be in the first film. Please have them look more TNG-era.

52. montgomery - November 17, 2009

TNG era Klingons are the best. And those fans who think TNGers were too Neanderthalian, consider this — they didn’t build their first spaceships, they just killed the mo-fo who landed on their home and then made the technology work for them. Some kind of massive F- up in the Prime Directive, I’d say. I ALWAYS felt that way.

Even so, put the Klingons on the back burner for the sequel. I want Cardassians.

53. Will_H - November 17, 2009

First off I think we need a Klingon villain again in Star Trek, its been too long. Enough Romulans for a while. Also, Enterprise gave JJ a way to have (at least some) Klingon’s with forehead ridges. The augment virus didn’t effect the entire Empire, and plus they mentioned cranial reconstruction surgery. I think it would be cool to have some with and some without maybe, but either way we need Klingons.

54. mateo - November 17, 2009

WHY THE HELL DID THEY TAKE THE DELETED SCENES OUT??? God, it makes me annoyed…it would have given a bit more substance

55. SebiMeyer - November 17, 2009

Geez, what is it with video interviews having so many cuts that it can give you a seizure? The man is talking. That’s interesting enough. If it is not, then there is no reason for the interview in the first place.

56. DS9 IN PRIME TIME - November 17, 2009

Kplah

57. =A= - November 17, 2009

yeah klingon blood!!!! come on, come back next star trek!!!

58. kahhhhhn - November 17, 2009

I dont know if any one noticed,but the klingon helmets look remarkably similar to the original “dog like” Darth Vader mask as seen in early Star Wars production paintings. Im assuming this was done on purpose,because the film was heavily influenced by Star Wars,which I dont mind at all because Im a fan of both series,and since they arent making any more Star Wars movies,you get a little of it in Star Trek.Why not go all the way,Id love to see Kirk battling Darth Vader,brought to the Star Trek universe,by the artificial worm hole that the explosion of the Death star created.yeah i know, too similar to what just happened with Nero.

59. Anthony Thompson - November 17, 2009

All I can tell you is:

They are selling like hotcakes (esp. the Blur Rays). For real!

60. Anthony Thompson - November 17, 2009

Would you believe: BLUE Rays? : D

61. Sybok's Secret Brother - November 17, 2009

More Klingons, please… and pass the gravy…

62. I, Mugsy - November 17, 2009

Oh for Gawd’s sake do something NEW and FRESH. Klingon’s have been done TO DEATH!!!!!!! They’ve become grunting jokes due to their over-use in just about every series as well as the films.

WAKE UP JJ – There’s a whole galaxy to explore and – hey! – perhaps we DON’Y need a ‘villain’ in the new film. What is this cowboys and indians in outer space??!?

Lets go back to exploring the unknown and seeing strange new worlds – that’s what Star Trek is all about I seem to remember someone saying quite often…

;D

63. Dr. Image - November 17, 2009

Kor. The first and the best.
Use HIM as the template, JJ.

64. Bill Peters - November 17, 2009

I’d say Klingon’s are my first Choice but the Gorn or some other species like that Cat species from the Slaver Episode of the Ana mated Series would do.

Also please have Nurse Chapel on Screen it would be a nice touch and Remembrance of Majel!

65. CarlG - November 17, 2009

Bring on the Klingons!

I wouldn’t mind if they kept some of the TNG ideas about the Klingons — the honorable warrior ethos and so forth — maybe make it more stylized and ritualistic.

You could also have it as sort of a philosophy / religion, that way you could have all types of Klingons, from the honorable warrior types who follow it very strictly, to “non-kosher” Klingons who play fast and loose with the Klingon ethic, so to speak.

@7,12, 19: You guys realize that #4 is a total troll, right? He hasn’t made a single post that didn’t involve complaining about the ridges. Best to let him just crawl back under his bridge.

66. captain_neill - November 17, 2009

I love both interpretation of the Klingons. I am a fan of the character of Worf.

Since Enterprise is canon in both universes I think the depiction of the Klingons in thise scene could git in with Enterprise, the reason they wear the helmets is to cover the smooth heads they obtained and the ridge design on helmet is a symbol of what they once were like in appearance.

It all works

67. captain_neill - November 17, 2009

God the writers try to apese fan questions about the make up change on DS9 and Enterprise and all you can do is complain.

68. Lt. Bailey - November 17, 2009

It would be nice to see Klingons again, for old times sake.

69. ClassicTrek - November 17, 2009

#62 I Mugsy

agree entirely. Im bored to death with the Klingons. They have become a joke. Cant we come up with something new. whats the point of going to the trouble of having an ‘alternate universe’ if all were going to do is re visit old stuff like this.

No Klingons Please Mr Abrams….lets have something brand new and exciting. Id like something other than the good guys beating the bad guys. what about something a bit more interesting and less predictable. something unusual to get the imagination stirred. were supposed to be going where no man has gone before….not where weve all been many times already.

Greg
UK

70. Gene L. Coon was a U. S. Marine. Stand at ease. - November 17, 2009

47 closet…

Your logic is impeccable, regarding the possibilities in the new timeline.

You may have addressed this before, but I have a question: What do you think Spock Prime should consider his moral obligation regarding the original timeline to be? In re Edith Keeler, Spock states that “millions would die that didn’t before”. The most obvious problem is the destruction of Vulcan, where the new film said “billions”(I think) died. For Spock to simply accept that fate, knowing there are ways to possibly “correct” the timeline seems a bit out of character. I respect your thoughtful posts, so I wonder what you think of this.

S/F

71. James - November 18, 2009

I really liked the Klingons in the deleted scenes!

Both TOS and TNG Klingons are good in different ways. TOS Klingons are good because they’re more sophisticated and intelligent, but TNG Klingons are good because they’re angrier and that much more savage.

The new Klingons in the deleted scenes were really good – the long-coats and helmets gave the impression of them being like Nazi stormtroopers. The guards interrogating the 3-faced alien really put across their savage brutality, but Nero’s interrogator also put across the idea that they’re far from stupid.

I hope there’s Klingons in the sequel.

And I hope they have ridges. And I’m a canon freak.

72. P Technobabble - November 18, 2009

I watched the dvd last night, and, even on the little screen, it was quite an epic film. I’ll catch up with the extras later, but after watching the film for the third time now, I am still happy with it.

When young Kirk meets Spock Prime, they blatantly discuss the “previous” timeline, which should make some realize the previous timeline was not thrown away altogether. The new timeline is a direct result of Nero and Spock Prime’s intervention.

I believe this manuevering of the timeline is a way to get Star Trek out of the doldrums, to open it up, to be able to do new things with it, and, therefore, I do not think we will be seeing any attempts to “correct” the timeline again.

Time travel stories, in general, are a bit of a cheat if you can always go back further in time to “redo” the direction it moves. I prefer the idea that Star Trek is living in a completely changed world.

73. Trekenstein - November 18, 2009

#71 – agreed. Everything that came before set up the alternate universe, it all once happened, it just will not happen again. No big deal.

And there is no reason to go back to the prime universe, ever. If anything this helps set up a return to the TNG era in an altered universe as well. The re-boot has already been done for all Star Trek. Since the original TNG actors won’t be able to reprise their roles, CBS & Paramount are free to recast and re-imagine those concepts and hopefully make them more appealing to a wide audience as the 2009 film did, free of all the oppressive canon conceived over 44 years of low-budget TV.

WIthout a clear explanation on screen, Star Trek appears to follow the standard Trek universe rules for time travel and the old time line is now being wiped-away – and for my money this is the correct way to view it. I never truly bought into the parallel universe thing anyway. That’s merely a device to appease the hard core fans. But it’s nothing more than lip-service if they never intend to go back to the so-called prime universe and produce more film and television – and why would they? Only low-ratings and poor profits that way lay. And ignoring the whole parallel universe thing allows Star Trek to explore time travel in future stories without ending up in yet another parallel universe.

But I do disagree with you about time travel stories being cheats if you can always go back and fix an altered timeline. That’s part of the fun of time travel story, not if they will fix the timeline, but rather how will they do it? It was never a question in Back To The Future series that they would set everything right, but it sure was fun going along for the ride. Star Trek’s problem is that they fell into the trap that time travel stories pulled the highest ratings and began to rely on them. Too much of anything is a bad thing. But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

74. Son of a Maui Portagee - November 18, 2009

28. TOS Fan queried “Honestly, does anyone REALLY think that the success of this film or its sequels is going to make anyone at Paramount think that they should return to any of the original shows?”

Well, the majority of Hollywood’s executive suites are stuck in “safe-think” mode and for them it makes eminent sense to bet on something “known”, i.e. done before with a quantifiable record of success, than to bet on something new, i.e. unknown and carrying with it a much higher possibility of failure.

I’m not saying their perceptions and choices are accurate. I’m just reporting that they are in this mode and, yes, likely to approve and encourage a story with some retreaded elements that they perceive will allow the project to hook into past successes.

75. I am not Herbert - November 18, 2009

Juicy casting rumor: “Nestor Carbonell (Richard Alpert from LOST) would play Khan if the filmmakers had to make a casting choice right now…”

76. Woulfe - November 18, 2009

What happened to the Klingons & how they look….

TOS – Smooth | TMP – Bumpy | TNG – Bumpy
DS9 – Bumpy | VOY – Bumpy | ENT – Bumpy

That last one caused a major problem as it takes place before TOS.

Now then when they did “Trials & Tribble-ations” they couldn’t afford to do CG bumpy foreheads for all the Klingons in the episode, I’m pretty sure just doing the blending scenes was costly as it was, forget adding the extra expense of CG’d foreheads.

So Ron Moore gave Worf the throw away line “It is a long story, and we do not discuss it with outsiders.” Now it would of been fine and dandy if fans would of just left well enough alone, but no, they had to ask “Well, what happened ?”

Enter Enterprise & Broken Bow, the first Klingon we see has a bumpy forehead, this takes place before Kirk “Trouble” as well as “Trials” this just makes matters that much worse, and fans kept asking “What Happened ?”

Then Manny Coto takes over Enterprise from B&B and he and the writers deside to answer the question once and for all about what happened.

– W –
* So there you go folks *

77. 4 8 15 16 23 42 - November 18, 2009

My vote: have Klingons in it, but not as villains….

Bring on the silicon-based lifeforms!

78. Will_H - November 18, 2009

I still think that cutting the Klingon scene was a huge mistake. I haven’t got the DVD yet (right now it would eat up my food budget, yay for college) but from what I’ve seen it explains a lot and even after having read the countdown comics and knowing what I did, I was confused watching the movie. I think for new comers this would have helped even further, and it just looks cool. I say Klingons are a must for the next film and I’d be in favor of having a main Klingon villain.

79. sean - November 18, 2009

#10

That’s ridiculous. Ron Moore didn’t screw anything up. If they’d done Trials and Tribbleations with ridged Klingons, TOS fans would have completely lost their sh*t. He made the whole situation into a rather funny joke with the whole ‘we do not discuss it with outsiders’ thing, which was more than enough for everyone. It’s Enterprise that decided they needed to answer a question no one needed an answer to.

80. Samuel James - November 19, 2009

#4 Idiot
#7 Well said

81. Closettrekker - November 19, 2009

#70—” In re Edith Keeler, Spock states that “millions would die that didn’t before”. The most obvious problem is the destruction of Vulcan, where the new film said “billions”(I think) died. For Spock to simply accept that fate, knowing there are ways to possibly “correct” the timeline seems a bit out of character. I respect your thoughtful posts, so I wonder what you think of this. ”

My take on that is, if the circumstances in ST09 were similar to those in TCOTEOF, Spock would not be opposed to taking action to “correct” the deaths of those (and you are correct—only an estimated 10,000 of Vulcan’s nearly 6 billion inhabitants survived) who perished as a result of Nero’s actions.

But here is the difference.

In TCOTEOF, Kirk and Spock have absolutely nothing to lose by attempting to assure that things play out precisely as they did once before. If they failed to identify Edith Keeler as the focal point and assure that her death takes place as it was supposed to, the worst possible scenario is that they live out their lives in the altered timeline, presumably doing what they could to bring America into the war in a timely fashion.

However, the circumstances are a bit different in ST09.

Assuming that your suggestion is that Spock Prime would, upon being united with the young Kirk on Delta Vega, do what is necessary to travel back in time in order to prevent the attack upon Vulcan—–the consequences of failure are even more severe than just what happened to Vulcan.

Even if they were to attempt to defeat Nero at some point between his arrival in 2233 and the destruction of Vulcan, given the difficulty and lack of guaranteed success in doing so during his subsequent attempt to destroy Earth, failure to succeed would be devastating. If they failed, then not only would Vulcan be destroyed, but Earth and the rest of the worlds of the Federation would surely follow.

Unlike in TCOTEOF, the cost of failure is not the status quo (the problem they and the rest of the landing party already faced), but something much worse. What if they were killed by Nero (who outguns them significantly in this time period) in the process? There would then be no one to stop him from executing his plan.

It was logical to attempt to do so in one scenario—-since there was, once again, nothing to lose.

I think the risk vs. reward factor in ST09 for some simliar action taken by Spock Prime would be deemed illogical, and the only choice to be made was to cut his losses and help to mend the timeline as much as possible by more conventional means.

While I don’t feel that Spock Prime is opposed to taking risks, I also do not think he would ignore the consequences of failure in making such a decision.

It’s like losing five dollars in a card game….you can bet another five and possibly get the original five back——or end up down ten instead. I think the first thing Spock would do is calculate the odds….don’t you?

82. Son of a Maui Portagee - November 19, 2009

#81.

I think the problem with your scenario is that you concoct it as if Spock Prime has to time travel first and then come up with a plan to stop Nero. While the situation on CotEoF was urgent as they had no ship or sustenance, compared to that situation, Spock Prime has all the time in the world to work on a solution first and then time travel to implement it. Most likely it would be something that closes the dimensional rift that allowed Nero to enter the alternate universe in the first place.

But he has plenty of other options to consider in his time travel back to Nero’s emergence other than solely healing the timeline. If he limits his concern solely to reversing the Vulcan genocide and not a time healing:

1. Diplomatic overtures to the Organians that gets them to prematurely intervene prior to Nero’s attack on Vulcan.

2. Diplomatic overtures to the Q that gets them to intervene – dangerous but Spock is a master of solid reasoning that might lead to some success.

etc.

Then again Prime’s time travel for a solution doesn’t only have to be backward, either. He could calculate the arrival of the Time Police and go forward to the 29th century to seek their intervention.

My point is not to be exhaustive or in any way suggest these are the best solutions, but just to demonstrate that if he decides to time travel to implement a solution it need not be as risky as you suggest. In fact, one could say that Spock Prime has something of track record of success of using time travel to fix things.

And regardless of the intentions of the current architects of this alternate universe to not have time travel work that way there, no one knows what the future holds in the fortunes of those that currently hold the reigns of power that would allow that take to stick. There are always possibilities.

P.S. In my wildest speculation, Spock Prime gets the Nexus to intersect at precisely Nero’s arrival coordinates in space time and that somehow dislodges Kirk Prime’s shadow in this alternate universe as a flesh and blood being while taking care of those Romulans.

83. Closettrekker - November 20, 2009

#82—-“…compared to that situation, Spock Prime has all the time in the world to work on a solution first and then time travel to implement it. Most likely it would be something that closes the dimensional rift that allowed Nero to enter the alternate universe in the first place.”

Beyond the uselessness of putting all that effort into solving the traditional prequel dilemma by establishing a new timeline, only to reverse it and be right back with the same problem—–that (“something”) is pretty vague.

And given the fact that Bob’s offscreen commentary on the MWI of QM isn’t canon, as far as I’m concerned—-he never actually entered any “alternate universe”. He simply travelled back in time, his actions there resulting in an alternate timeline. I choose to see it that way because it is simply more in line with previously established continuity regarding the effects of time travel in the Star Trek Universe.

“If he limits his concern solely to reversing the Vulcan genocide and not a time healing:

1. Diplomatic overtures to the Organians that gets them to prematurely intervene prior to Nero’s attack on Vulcan.”

The obvious problem with that is that the Organians find interfering in the affairs of other races extremely distasteful. It seems they only did so during the Federation-Klingon War because they found war in front of their own faces even more distasteful. With any number of armed conflicts going on in various parts of the galaxy at any given time—-why would they care about this one in particular? If even a Klingon occupation of their planet could not prompt them to act, what makes you think that an attack on a distant planet (or even a series of them) would do so?

” 2. Diplomatic overtures to the Q that gets them to intervene – dangerous but Spock is a master of solid reasoning that might lead to some success.”

I would be extremely disappointed if Bad Robot ever went to the “Q” well, but beyond that, (once again) why would Q care even the slightest bit about any of this?

” (Spock) Prime’s time travel for a solution doesn’t only have to be backward, either. He could calculate the arrival of the Time Police and go forward to the 29th century to seek their intervention.”

That’s assuming alot—–first and foremost, that the very existence of the Temporal Police has not been prevented by the events which formed the alternate timeline. Once again, Bob’s commentary on MWI/QM is not canon—-so I would defer to traditional Star Trek rules regarding time travel. Just as McCoy’s intervention with what was supposed to be a fatal car accident involving Edith Keeler resulted in the Federation’s disappearance from the timeline, anything and everything else not yet in motion is subject to the same potential consequences.

Since we assume (as the writers do) that the ENT timeline is the one leading up to Nero’s timeline incursion in 2233, we know that, at least some 80 or so years earlier, that version of the 29th Century existed. However, given Nero’s actions and the ripple effects of them, we certainly cannot be sure that any 29th Century Spock Prime might travel to includes any such organization. In fact, the whole point of the establishment of the alternate timeline is that the future is no longer predictable.

“In my wildest speculation, Spock Prime gets the Nexus to intersect at precisely Nero’s arrival coordinates in space time and that somehow dislodges Kirk Prime’s shadow in this alternate universe as a flesh and blood being while taking care of those Romulans.”

Lol. Yes, I’d say that is an apt description….”wild” indeed.

84. Son of a Maui Portagee - November 20, 2009

#83. Closettrekker

I think you missed the whole point of my post. Your response to it only seems to be that there wouldn’t be any change. What’s “risky” about that? As I said, “My point is not to be exhaustive or in any way suggest these are the best solutions, but just to demonstrate that if he decides to time travel to implement a solution it need not be as risky as you suggest.”

I also think you dismiss too easily that Spock Prime is quite an accomplished diplomat at this phase of his life and that he would have time to work out an approach with some chance of success – something with inescapable logic no doubt. Or maybe he can run it by Kirk who seems to have an innate ability to determine what mathematically improbable solution “will work”?

Well, at least you found the laugh that I intended.

85. Closettrekker - November 20, 2009

#84—-“Your response to it only seems to be that there wouldn’t be any change. What’s “risky” about that? ”

It seems to me that, instead of dedicating what time he has left in life to coming up with a shaky solution to an event which has already past (which is more than a little bit like a couple of bad VOY episodes), his time would be better served doing precisely what he has set out to do in this timeline—–help resettle what is left of his father’s people. You ask what is at risk, and my answer is alot of time wasted that is better spent in (what is now for him) the present, where the Vulcans and indeed the entire Federation face real tangible issues. Why encourage Quingo’s Spock to spend this time in Starfleet and ease his feelings of responsibility by promising his own service to the survivors, only to spend his remaining time trying (most likely in vain) to undo the past?

“I also think you dismiss too easily that Spock Prime is quite an accomplished diplomat at this phase of his life and that he would have time to work out an approach with some chance of success…”

There is that word again—time—something which he has already promised his younger counterpart he would spend helping to rebuild what is left of the Vulcan culture and its people. I do not dismiss his diplomatic ability, something he will no doubt need in order to help lead the Vulcan people in this time of great and terrible trial.

I have no trouble, however, dismissing MWI of QM (which would preclude him from “changing” any past event anyway) as something non-canonical, and therefore have no trouble viewing this timeline as something which could in fact actually be altered. But I just don’t buy that Spock Prime would choose that course of action under these circumstances. This situation is far different than the ones he has faced before.

But ultimately, it does not matter whether I feel he would or would not, nor does it matter that he could or could not. The writers have approached the issue of time travel based upon their own understanding of the MWI of QM—which inherently precludes any manipulation of the current timeline. By their reasoning, all Spock Prime could do is create another branched timeline in which Nero does not destroy Vulcan.

86. Gene L. Coon was a U. S. Marine. Stand at ease. - November 21, 2009

84 & 85 Very thoughtful, as expected. I view it more simply than the MWI of QM issue. The Spock we all know for 50 years should be saying “there are always possibilities”, not stoically accepting his, and Vulcan’s fate. He should at least have addressed it in a conversation. This is the risk of doing time travel stories to begin with. There is always the “out” that anything can be undone. We have obviously seen the crew do it in both TOS and in the films. Granted, it is always portrayed as very hazardous and difficult, but it is ultimately doable. Stop Nero to begin with, and there is no altering of the timeline.

The biggest difference here is that the interference with the timeline happens in the future, not the past. To truly stop Nero, we need to go forward in time, not backwards, to when Spock creates the black hole with the red matter, and keep Nero out of the hole. Going back in time to the Kelvin attack doesn’t work, for the reasons you cite. Nero outguns everyone in this time. Trek hasn’t addressed going forward in time, to my knowledge, but that seems to be a surmountable writing challenge.

I am less concerned with the MWI of QM theories, and more interested in how it would play out on screen. I think some expository dialogue in the sequel should address Spock Prime’s dilemma here. This year’s film did not even address the issue. That is what I find out of character. While I might wish for a “fix” that restores the original timeline, and brings back Jeffries’ Enterprise, I am realistic enough to know that probably won’t happen. I would like to hear Spock Prime explain it to me though.

87. Gene L. Coon was a U. S. Marine. Stand at ease. - November 21, 2009

And another thing…

In TVH, Spock and Co. time travel to prevent the impending destruction of Earth (Earth was only having quite the thunderstorm, it wasn’t sucked to smithereens yet!), viewing any inherent risks to the timeline/themselves as justifiable in order to save Earth (needs of the many etc) For Spock to not even entertain the possibility of time travel to save Vulcan is simply not Spock-like.

88. Closettrekker - November 21, 2009

#86—“The Spock we all know for 50 years should be saying “there are always possibilities”, not stoically accepting his, and Vulcan’s fate.”

I don’t think he is at all stoic about it (having even gone so far as to admit that he is emotionally compromised), nor do I feel that he is simply accepting his fate or that of his father’s people. On the contrary, I think he grabbed fate by the balls in ST09—–ensuring by his own intervention that Kirk both returns aboard, and takes command of, the Enterprise, providing his young friends with the necessary tools aboard his own ship to have a chance to stop Nero, and ultimately dedicating himself to resettling and rebuilding with the Vulcan people upon the villain’s defeat.

“The biggest difference here is that the interference with the timeline happens in the future, not the past. To truly stop Nero, we need to go forward in time, not backwards, to when Spock creates the black hole with the red matter, and keep Nero out of the hole. ”

I have to point out here that the future of which you speak no longer exists. Once Nero comes through the rift and attacks the Kelvin, the course of events has already been altered—-and that’s assuming, once again, that we view these events within the parameters of more traditional Star Trek treatment of time travel. Of course, the writers would have you embrace the MWI of QM, which in itself precludes events from being changed in the past or future of any given timeline anyway. According to their application of that theory, Spock could only succeed in creating another strand of time, as any one he chooses to leave would go on without him.

But MWI or not, Spock Prime either cannot travel to a future which no longer exists, or he can neither move forward nor backward within the same timeline. Either way, stopping Nero’s original entry to this timeline is impossible. The only possible solution would be (disregarding MWI) to travel back in time to some point after Nero has arrived and prior to the destruction of Vulcan—-in which case Spock has to choose between the only scenario in which Nero’s defeat is assured (the status quo) and risking that, in any such attempt to prevent the tragedy, Nero might not be defeated at all (in which case, Vulcan would not be the only planet to suffer that fate).

“I am less concerned with the MWI of QM theories, and more interested in how it would play out on screen. I think some expository dialogue in the sequel should address Spock Prime’s dilemma here. This year’s film did not even address the issue. That is what I find out of character. ”

I hear you, but remember that one of the reasons it was not explained is their favor towards MWI. As Bob pointed out to us prior to the film’s release, their intention was to be ambiguous—–allowing a portion of the fanbase to assuage their anguish over the notion that the “Prime Timeline” was wiped out by suggesting that it moves along unchanged, and yet another group (canonistas like me) to view ST09’s treatment of time travel as being no different than previously established continuity had suggested it should be.

If Spock had explained why he had to leave things the way they were—-the subject could hardly remain open to interpretation. They would have either canonized MWI—-disregarding classic stories like “The City On The Edge Of Forever”, “Tommorow Is Yesterday”, “Assignment: Earth”, “Yesteryear”, “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, and 48 other canon Trek stories as well—-or they would have acknowledged that the “Prime Timeline” was gone forever.

I actually would have been content with the latter, viewing the Prime Timeline as the prelude to this one, but alot of people wouldn’t be—as they have made clear here. Ultimately, I think the writers made the wise choice, as different fans with differing viewpoints can interpret things as they see fit.

89. Son of a Maui Portagee - November 21, 2009

85. Closettrekker reasoned “By their reasoning, all Spock Prime could do is create another branched timeline in which Nero does not destroy Vulcan.”

And what’s wrong with that, i.e. creating a universe where his mother and Vulcan both live?

If his motivation is because he in some way thinks he’s responsible, surely he of all people would see the illogic of that thinking, i.e. Nero is responsible for his own actions? And even if he doesn’t wouldn’t the disaster in the Prime universe take precedence? I mean, shouldn’t he at least been thinking about getting back and addressing that based on his life experience? Regardless of what TPTB think, the Spock Prime character is who he is. He’s had experiences that lead him to believe that he can time travel and/or jump universes through various mechanisms.

It should be addressed as to why he has no choice but to stay.

About the only thing I can think of is he figures he can use the experience recolonizing these Vulcans to better serve his Romulans when he returns.

As for your contention that he’s running out of time, how exactly did you determine that his Genesis reconstituted body’s expiration date is up?

Also, I’ve been puzzling over something else: in this alternate universe much is made that Spock Prime lost his planet and his mother – but didn’t he also gain a father? Sarek Prime’s been dead for some time.

90. Jimnogood - December 17, 2009

Is it a coincidence that the three best ST movies involved time travel? Hmm… next movie, more time travel??? :)

I’ve always enjoyed the time travel/alternate reality episodes from the TV series. Maybe because it is fascinating to see how the established characters and history get affected by the “what could have been”.

Also, what is up with Spock’s obsession with the Romulans and trying to reunify the two cultures. The Romulans have been screwing him over and over again. Give it up! They don’t like you.

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