I’ve always enjoyed the time travel/alternate reality episodes from the TV series. Maybe because it is fascinating to see how the established characters and history get affected by the “what could have been”.

Also, what is up with Spock’s obsession with the Romulans and trying to reunify the two cultures. The Romulans have been screwing him over and over again. Give it up! They don’t like you.

And what’s wrong with that, i.e. creating a universe where his mother and Vulcan both live?

If his motivation is because he in some way thinks he’s responsible, surely he of all people would see the illogic of that thinking, i.e. Nero is responsible for his own actions? And even if he doesn’t wouldn’t the disaster in the Prime universe take precedence? I mean, shouldn’t he at least been thinking about getting back and addressing that based on his life experience? Regardless of what TPTB think, the Spock Prime character is who he is. He’s had experiences that lead him to believe that he can time travel and/or jump universes through various mechanisms.

It should be addressed as to why he has no choice but to stay.

About the only thing I can think of is he figures he can use the experience recolonizing these Vulcans to better serve his Romulans when he returns.

As for your contention that he’s running out of time, how exactly did you determine that his Genesis reconstituted body’s expiration date is up?

Also, I’ve been puzzling over something else: in this alternate universe much is made that Spock Prime lost his planet and his mother – but didn’t he also gain a father? Sarek Prime’s been dead for some time.

I don’t think he is at all stoic about it (having even gone so far as to admit that he is emotionally compromised), nor do I feel that he is simply accepting his fate or that of his father’s people. On the contrary, I think he grabbed fate by the balls in ST09—–ensuring by his own intervention that Kirk both returns aboard, and takes command of, the Enterprise, providing his young friends with the necessary tools aboard his own ship to have a chance to stop Nero, and ultimately dedicating himself to resettling and rebuilding with the Vulcan people upon the villain’s defeat.

“The biggest difference here is that the interference with the timeline happens in the future, not the past. To truly stop Nero, we need to go forward in time, not backwards, to when Spock creates the black hole with the red matter, and keep Nero out of the hole. ”

I have to point out here that the future of which you speak no longer exists. Once Nero comes through the rift and attacks the Kelvin, the course of events has already been altered—-and that’s assuming, once again, that we view these events within the parameters of more traditional Star Trek treatment of time travel. Of course, the writers would have you embrace the MWI of QM, which in itself precludes events from being changed in the past or future of any given timeline anyway. According to their application of that theory, Spock could only succeed in creating another strand of time, as any one he chooses to leave would go on without him.

But MWI or not, Spock Prime either cannot travel to a future which no longer exists, or he can neither move forward nor backward within the same timeline. Either way, stopping Nero’s original entry to this timeline is impossible. The only possible solution would be (disregarding MWI) to travel back in time to some point after Nero has arrived and prior to the destruction of Vulcan—-in which case Spock has to choose between the only scenario in which Nero’s defeat is assured (the status quo) and risking that, in any such attempt to prevent the tragedy, Nero might not be defeated at all (in which case, Vulcan would not be the only planet to suffer that fate).

“I am less concerned with the MWI of QM theories, and more interested in how it would play out on screen. I think some expository dialogue in the sequel should address Spock Prime’s dilemma here. This year’s film did not even address the issue. That is what I find out of character. ”

I hear you, but remember that one of the reasons it was not explained is their favor towards MWI. As Bob pointed out to us prior to the film’s release, their intention was to be ambiguous—–allowing a portion of the fanbase to assuage their anguish over the notion that the “Prime Timeline” was wiped out by suggesting that it moves along unchanged, and yet another group (canonistas like me) to view ST09’s treatment of time travel as being no different than previously established continuity had suggested it should be.

If Spock had explained why he had to leave things the way they were—-the subject could hardly remain open to interpretation. They would have either canonized MWI—-disregarding classic stories like “The City On The Edge Of Forever”, “Tommorow Is Yesterday”, “Assignment: Earth”, “Yesteryear”, “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, and 48 other canon Trek stories as well—-or they would have acknowledged that the “Prime Timeline” was gone forever.

I actually would have been content with the latter, viewing the Prime Timeline as the prelude to this one, but alot of people wouldn’t be—as they have made clear here. Ultimately, I think the writers made the wise choice, as different fans with differing viewpoints can interpret things as they see fit.

In TVH, Spock and Co. time travel to prevent the impending destruction of Earth (Earth was only having quite the thunderstorm, it wasn’t sucked to smithereens yet!), viewing any inherent risks to the timeline/themselves as justifiable in order to save Earth (needs of the many etc) For Spock to not even entertain the possibility of time travel to save Vulcan is simply not Spock-like.

The biggest difference here is that the interference with the timeline happens in the future, not the past. To truly stop Nero, we need to go forward in time, not backwards, to when Spock creates the black hole with the red matter, and keep Nero out of the hole. Going back in time to the Kelvin attack doesn’t work, for the reasons you cite. Nero outguns everyone in this time. Trek hasn’t addressed going forward in time, to my knowledge, but that seems to be a surmountable writing challenge.

I am less concerned with the MWI of QM theories, and more interested in how it would play out on screen. I think some expository dialogue in the sequel should address Spock Prime’s dilemma here. This year’s film did not even address the issue. That is what I find out of character. While I might wish for a “fix” that restores the original timeline, and brings back Jeffries’ Enterprise, I am realistic enough to know that probably won’t happen. I would like to hear Spock Prime explain it to me though.

It seems to me that, instead of dedicating what time he has left in life to coming up with a shaky solution to an event which has already past (which is more than a little bit like a couple of bad VOY episodes), his time would be better served doing precisely what he has set out to do in this timeline—–help resettle what is left of his father’s people. You ask what is at risk, and my answer is alot of time wasted that is better spent in (what is now for him) the present, where the Vulcans and indeed the entire Federation face real tangible issues. Why encourage Quingo’s Spock to spend this time in Starfleet and ease his feelings of responsibility by promising his own service to the survivors, only to spend his remaining time trying (most likely in vain) to undo the past?

“I also think you dismiss too easily that Spock Prime is quite an accomplished diplomat at this phase of his life and that he would have time to work out an approach with some chance of success…”

There is that word again—time—something which he has already promised his younger counterpart he would spend helping to rebuild what is left of the Vulcan culture and its people. I do not dismiss his diplomatic ability, something he will no doubt need in order to help lead the Vulcan people in this time of great and terrible trial.

I have no trouble, however, dismissing MWI of QM (which would preclude him from “changing” any past event anyway) as something non-canonical, and therefore have no trouble viewing this timeline as something which could in fact actually be altered. But I just don’t buy that Spock Prime would choose that course of action under these circumstances. This situation is far different than the ones he has faced before.

But ultimately, it does not matter whether I feel he would or would not, nor does it matter that he could or could not. The writers have approached the issue of time travel based upon their own understanding of the MWI of QM—which inherently precludes any manipulation of the current timeline. By their reasoning, all Spock Prime could do is create another branched timeline in which Nero does not destroy Vulcan.

I think you missed the whole point of my post. Your response to it only seems to be that there wouldn’t be any change. What’s “risky” about that? As I said, “My point is not to be exhaustive or in any way suggest these are the best solutions, but just to demonstrate that if he decides to time travel to implement a solution it need not be as risky as you suggest.”

I also think you dismiss too easily that Spock Prime is quite an accomplished diplomat at this phase of his life and that he would have time to work out an approach with some chance of success – something with inescapable logic no doubt. Or maybe he can run it by Kirk who seems to have an innate ability to determine what mathematically improbable solution “will work”?

Well, at least you found the laugh that I intended.

Beyond the uselessness of putting all that effort into solving the traditional prequel dilemma by establishing a new timeline, only to reverse it and be right back with the same problem—–that (”something”) is pretty vague.

And given the fact that Bob’s offscreen commentary on the MWI of QM isn’t canon, as far as I’m concerned—-he never actually entered any “alternate universe”. He simply travelled back in time, his actions there resulting in an alternate timeline. I choose to see it that way because it is simply more in line with previously established continuity regarding the effects of time travel in the Star Trek Universe.

“If he limits his concern solely to reversing the Vulcan genocide and not a time healing:

1. Diplomatic overtures to the Organians that gets them to prematurely intervene prior to Nero’s attack on Vulcan.”

The obvious problem with that is that the Organians find interfering in the affairs of other races extremely distasteful. It seems they only did so during the Federation-Klingon War because they found war in front of their own faces even more distasteful. With any number of armed conflicts going on in various parts of the galaxy at any given time—-why would they care about this one in particular? If even a Klingon occupation of their planet could not prompt them to act, what makes you think that an attack on a distant planet (or even a series of them) would do so?

” 2. Diplomatic overtures to the Q that gets them to intervene – dangerous but Spock is a master of solid reasoning that might lead to some success.”

I would be extremely disappointed if Bad Robot ever went to the “Q” well, but beyond that, (once again) why would Q care even the slightest bit about any of this?

” (Spock) Prime’s time travel for a solution doesn’t only have to be backward, either. He could calculate the arrival of the Time Police and go forward to the 29th century to seek their intervention.”

That’s assuming alot—–first and foremost, that the very existence of the Temporal Police has not been prevented by the events which formed the alternate timeline. Once again, Bob’s commentary on MWI/QM is not canon—-so I would defer to traditional Star Trek rules regarding time travel. Just as McCoy’s intervention with what was supposed to be a fatal car accident involving Edith Keeler resulted in the Federation’s disappearance from the timeline, anything and everything else not yet in motion is subject to the same potential consequences.

Since we assume (as the writers do) that the ENT timeline is the one leading up to Nero’s timeline incursion in 2233, we know that, at least some 80 or so years earlier, that version of the 29th Century existed. However, given Nero’s actions and the ripple effects of them, we certainly cannot be sure that any 29th Century Spock Prime might travel to includes any such organization. In fact, the whole point of the establishment of the alternate timeline is that the future is no longer predictable.

“In my wildest speculation, Spock Prime gets the Nexus to intersect at precisely Nero’s arrival coordinates in space time and that somehow dislodges Kirk Prime’s shadow in this alternate universe as a flesh and blood being while taking care of those Romulans.”

Lol. Yes, I’d say that is an apt description….”wild” indeed.

I think the problem with your scenario is that you concoct it as if Spock Prime has to time travel first and then come up with a plan to stop Nero. While the situation on CotEoF was urgent as they had no ship or sustenance, compared to that situation, Spock Prime has all the time in the world to work on a solution first and then time travel to implement it. Most likely it would be something that closes the dimensional rift that allowed Nero to enter the alternate universe in the first place.

But he has plenty of other options to consider in his time travel back to Nero’s emergence other than solely healing the timeline. If he limits his concern solely to reversing the Vulcan genocide and not a time healing:

1. Diplomatic overtures to the Organians that gets them to prematurely intervene prior to Nero’s attack on Vulcan.

2. Diplomatic overtures to the Q that gets them to intervene – dangerous but Spock is a master of solid reasoning that might lead to some success.

etc.

Then again Prime’s time travel for a solution doesn’t only have to be backward, either. He could calculate the arrival of the Time Police and go forward to the 29th century to seek their intervention.

My point is not to be exhaustive or in any way suggest these are the best solutions, but just to demonstrate that if he decides to time travel to implement a solution it need not be as risky as you suggest. In fact, one could say that Spock Prime has something of track record of success of using time travel to fix things.

And regardless of the intentions of the current architects of this alternate universe to not have time travel work that way there, no one knows what the future holds in the fortunes of those that currently hold the reigns of power that would allow that take to stick. There are always possibilities.

P.S. In my wildest speculation, Spock Prime gets the Nexus to intersect at precisely Nero’s arrival coordinates in space time and that somehow dislodges Kirk Prime’s shadow in this alternate universe as a flesh and blood being while taking care of those Romulans.

My take on that is, if the circumstances in ST09 were similar to those in TCOTEOF, Spock would not be opposed to taking action to “correct” the deaths of those (and you are correct—only an estimated 10,000 of Vulcan’s nearly 6 billion inhabitants survived) who perished as a result of Nero’s actions.

But here is the difference.

In TCOTEOF, Kirk and Spock have absolutely nothing to lose by attempting to assure that things play out precisely as they did once before. If they failed to identify Edith Keeler as the focal point and assure that her death takes place as it was supposed to, the worst possible scenario is that they live out their lives in the altered timeline, presumably doing what they could to bring America into the war in a timely fashion.

However, the circumstances are a bit different in ST09.

Assuming that your suggestion is that Spock Prime would, upon being united with the young Kirk on Delta Vega, do what is necessary to travel back in time in order to prevent the attack upon Vulcan—–the consequences of failure are even more severe than just what happened to Vulcan.

Even if they were to attempt to defeat Nero at some point between his arrival in 2233 and the destruction of Vulcan, given the difficulty and lack of guaranteed success in doing so during his subsequent attempt to destroy Earth, failure to succeed would be devastating. If they failed, then not only would Vulcan be destroyed, but Earth and the rest of the worlds of the Federation would surely follow.

Unlike in TCOTEOF, the cost of failure is not the status quo (the problem they and the rest of the landing party already faced), but something much worse. What if they were killed by Nero (who outguns them significantly in this time period) in the process? There would then be no one to stop him from executing his plan.

It was logical to attempt to do so in one scenario—-since there was, once again, nothing to lose.

I think the risk vs. reward factor in ST09 for some simliar action taken by Spock Prime would be deemed illogical, and the only choice to be made was to cut his losses and help to mend the timeline as much as possible by more conventional means.

While I don’t feel that Spock Prime is opposed to taking risks, I also do not think he would ignore the consequences of failure in making such a decision.

It’s like losing five dollars in a card game….you can bet another five and possibly get the original five back——or end up down ten instead. I think the first thing Spock would do is calculate the odds….don’t you?