The World Reacts To Unfilmed Shatner Star Trek 2009 Scene + Could It Be Done? November 27, 2009
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Shatner, Star Trek (2009 film), Star Trek sequel (2012) , trackback
The big news this week has been the revealing of the scene written for William Shatner for the Star Trek movie. Below we have some of the reaction from across the web and here with the Trekkies. Plus we review comments from Orci and Kurtzman and take a look at the technical logistics of putting Shatner into Trek.
What they are saying
The Shatner scene spread across the geekosphere like a wave this week. Many sites justed posted links and excerpts, but some others added commentary, which is about universally positive.
I really like this sequence as scripted… and feels it nicely addresses a nagging, nitpicky issue I had with the film: there’s not enough gravitas when QuintoSpock steps onto the Enterprise bridge at the end of the movie, and asks PineKirk for permission to come aboard. Spock Prime has already tipped off PineKirk and QuintoSpock to the profundity and consequence of their friendship ("a friendship that will define you both" is what Nimoy tells QuintoSpock, for example) – PineKirk simply "granting" QuintoSpock permission to join the crew at the end doesn’t feel quite accentuated enough.
- AICN
To be honest, it’s pretty damn good. It brought a little tear to my eye, and it would’ve been a pretty powerful way to end the film. However, you can’t dwell on what never was, and the movie turned out great without this scene. Still, it’s hard not to wonder.
- Cinemablend
All things considered, this might have been a reasonable way to shoehorn Shatner into the film. The hologram device would allow for a certain degree of CGI de-aging to be applied, and it’s a hokey but not altogether unprecedented bridge between the generations. There are already enough glaringly overt nods to classic ideas and character tics throughout the new film, and one more wouldn’t have killed it. If the last of classic Kirk’s dialogue had been toned down a bit so it wasn’t quite so sentimental, I’d have been willing to buy it.
- Slashfilm
I could have dug that.
- JoBlo
I’m not even a Trekkie and I can see the wasted opportunity in this. Hopefully he’ll make an appearance in the second film and finally let us see him in the captain’s chair one last time.
- Screencrave
It obviously never made the film but I somewhat wish it had…The scene is very nostalgic but yet logical to the story line. At the same time though, it’s also a classic Hollywood voice over scene and really doesn’t fit with the tone of the whole movie. But I would still like to see it.
- CrunchGear
I’m of two minds concerning this. It certainly is a well written scene, and does add some poignancy to the end of the film (which was already poignant enough). There definitely would’ve been more of a sense of closure and things coming full circle for the original crew, as well as a new beginning for the Abrams series.
At the same time, as well written as it may be, the scene does feel a bit like a gimmick. I mean, what are the odds that Spock would have had that transmission thingy hanging around his neck at the exact moment that he was thrown through time?
- Latino Review
…read the whole thing, and see if you don’t get slightly choked up at the end
- io9
Trekkies in tears – most want the Shat scene
Looking through the hundreds of comments here at TrekMovie.com, like most things, this scene sparked a lot of debate. However, it is clear that lots of Trekkies liked this scene. There are many who even talk about "tearing up" and "crying" when they read the scene. Looking at it more objectively, we held a poll, and a clear majority wish that the scene were in the final film. Here are the results:
What do you think of the Shatner ST09 Scene?
- Should have been in film (64%)
- Good, but better without it (29%)
- Don’t like it (7%)
Orci and Kurtzman on the "Supreme Court" Shatner Decision
As is his custom, Star Trek co-writer Roberto Orci dropped by the comments section here this week, and in the Shatner Scene threated he pointed out that the debate scene here is not unlike the one amongst the Trek team:
boborci
You can imagine how the debate raged among the Supreme Court. tough decision, right?
Back in early May, Orci and co-writer Alex Kurtzman spoke to MTV about the scene. We showed this before but you may not have spotted it with so much going on around the release of the film. Regardless, now that you have read the scene, it is worth reviewing what the pair had to say about it, and how the "Supreme Court" (Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof and Burk) debated it. They also go into more detail into how the scene would have fit into the final film.
You can see that debate even going on within the video above. It is clear that Orci’s vote was to pitch the scene to The Shat. From his public statements, it seems Abrams vote was against. The director has noted he felt that putting Shatner into the film would have felt "forced"
But, How do you get Shatner into Star Trek?
There is also a logistical issue of getting Shatner into Star Trek. The plan was to show Captain Kirk at a time previous to Star Trek Generations. Kirk was 60 years old in Generations, and Shatner was 63 when he shot it. William Shatner is now 78 and would be around 80 by the time the next Star Trek movie goes into production.
William Shatner in Generations (1994) and at Madame Tussauds (October 2009)
Any scene with Shatner playing a pre-Generations Kirk would have to de-age the actor by around two decades. The good news is that the technology to do this exists. In fact Shatner was digitally de-aged in 2006 for a Direct TV commercial, which put new shots of the actor into scenes from 1991’s Star Trek VI.
And the technology is improving and would be even better for a big feature film. Recent films like The Curious Case of Benjamin Button extensively use digital aging and de-aging. And in 2009 there was a movie that digitally de-aged a Star Trek captain. [SPOILER ALERT] X-Men Wolverine had a brief cameo from Patrick Stewart at the end of the movie. As the film was set years before the 2000 film X-Men, they had to shave a decade or two off Stewart.
Patrick Stewart in X Men Origins: Wolverine (2009) and at British Academy Film Awards (February 2009)
Also, the above scene was to be done as a holographic recording. The same technique could be done in the sequel as well. There is no reason a portable hologram projector has to be picture perfect, and so the image itself could end up being somewhat distorted. Using an effect like those seen in the Star Wars films could make the de-aging less important.
Bail Organa (Jimmy Smits) as hologram in "Star Wars Episode III"
One thing is for sure. The revelation of this scene will only fuel the debate to put Shatner into the Star Trek sequel. In fact, Orci has already responded to the new calls for that here at TrekMovie.com, with the following comment:
boborci
Oh, boy! Here we go again!
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Comments»
good idea
leave it out. Time to move on.
Sounds like a special edition of the DVD at least!
I’m sorry, but I don’t see what the hubbub was all about. Orci & Kurtzman’s writing is glaringly mediocre. The THOUGHT and INTENT behind the scene is nice, but as written, it simply made me roll my eyes.
Their writing and dialogue in TREK ‘09 doesn’t even come within a country mile of the intelligence and wit seen in the first 2 seasons of TOS, or in any of the Nick Meyer movies. I’m glad it didn’t make it in.
I like this thread! It’s exciting!
Or at least will be.
Jesus, everyone needs to move on from musty old TOS already… Galloping around the cosmos is a game for the young.
How about a Director’s Edition Blu Ray of the new movie, with all the deleted scenes inserted in, PLUS this alternate Shatner-ific ending? I would pony up for it, that’s for sure. :)
While it’s honestly a nice nod, Prime Kirk had his finale in Star Trek: Generations. which took away from the TNG Crews premier on the big screen… The whole purpose of Prime Spock in the Star Trek (2009) was to Explain the Alternate Reality. Having a Hologram recording is one thing but I’d love to see the new Reality Crew stand up on it’s own, but would do nothing more than add a tiny bit of nostalgia, and take something away from the main story.
I still miss the fact that DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise Crews were all passed over for Feature films. When is Sisko going to leave the prophets? what happened to the crew of Voyager after their return, did the Maquis crewmembers remain, or did they leave starfleet and create a new maquis group – since they were pardonned because of their actions? Star Trek Enterprise could have done something with the Romulan Wars…
either way, We won’t see it and I suppose that is okay, because the JJ version of Star Trek is great.
Wow.
At first I was against it, but hearing Alex Kurtzmann put it into context, I think I would have shed tears as well. Can you imagine a cinema filled with balling Treknerds?
In any case, I am glad Trek is in these guys’ hands. They know what they’re dealing with on all its levels, and i cannot wait for the next one.
Why are we even dwelling on this? What possible purpose could it serve other than to stir up a pot of shit all over again? Webmasters (here and elsewhere) are not doing anyone any favors by continuing to rev up the Shatner issue, but I guess the thinking is akin to certain cable news network: anything goes as long as you get the traffic (or ratings, as the case may be). Doesn’t matter if you stir people up and cause endless arguments; gotta have those page hits!
Disgusting.
The digital de-aging process would not seem to work on the big screen unless more effort were to be put into it. The de-aged Shatner does not look very good in the DirecTV commercial.
PUT IT IN!!
Please don’t do this just because the technology exists.
It would have made perfect sense the way it was scripted for the first JJ-Trek. Adding Bill in to later movies will look like a stunt. It will distract from the rest of the movie. Will he be back? Was that really Shatner? Did you see that, it was Shatner? The Klingons are closing in? Who cares; that was Shatner!
As always, I love the original cast and crew. But please, you have made a new universe. Let’s see how she flies.
There’s no reason it can’t end up in the next Trek movie. It may have to be re-molded to fit in the context of the next movie, but it could still work. Since I liked the non-scene, I can just pretend it WAS in the movie.
10:
Martin, I think for a Star Trek site, this is an issue worth discussing. Nimoy was invited back for a $400m film based on an iconic series which we all love. His counterpart in that series is still alive and kicking, and the chemistry between the two, as shown in 79 eps and six films, is actually one of the reasons we all care about it to this day, and a key reason it’s lasted so long.
I don’t think Kirk and Spock should get married or die in each others’ arms, as many here seem to think is appropriate, but a tasteful voiceover is worth considering. Execution is the issue.
Shatner today is definitely not Kirk material. He’s a comedian and a pitchman. The scene most likely would’ve sucked.
It’s a nice ‘what-if’ to ponder, however.
There is no reason to not give this a shot. Love him, hate him, be indifferent about him…..at the end of the day, Shatner IS Trek. To put it in the terms of the Shat: We……….need …………him, so that we………can revel in our nostalgia………….one…..more time!
DVD/Blu-Ray Director’s Cut
Re-insert/finish most deleted scenes (especially Klingon subplot)
Add Shatner scene
Make it so.
#4
Amen!
I won’t repeat myself here, but I did put in my two strips’ (of latinum) worth at 424 and 425 of the comments section in the Shatner Scene story. I think that the scene as written is quite well-done but there are countervailing considerations — including whether the mainstream appeal of this film can be maintained. For many, the inclusion of Shatner’s Kirk might be as much of a turn-off as much as it is a turn-on to us, who have loved Star Trek from the beginning.
Recall that the take-away from the commercials was that this is NOT your father’s Star Trek. Including Shatner’s Kirk in the movie would have detracted from that fundamentally, since in a sense, it WOULD be our fathers’ (our) Star Trek, and — for the purposes of new audiences — this would not be a good thing.
We need to remember the central protagonist of Trek as a young, active, and vigorous young man, and not one who is overshadowed by the man he was … in another life.
Nah. “Star Trek 2″ (or 12) should be free of ties to the franchise that came before. Spock Prime already passed the baton. It’s time for Pine & Co. to sail on their own.
I meant to write, “We need to remember the central protagonist of Trek as an active, vigorous young man, and not one who is overshadowed by the man he was … in another life.
I hate it when I am redundant. I really do. I really, really, really, really do. I do. Really.
“”" #4: I’m sorry, but I don’t see what the hubbub was all about. Orci & Kurtzman’s writing is glaringly mediocre. The THOUGHT and INTENT behind the scene is nice, but as written, it simply made me roll my eyes.
Their writing and dialogue in TREK ‘09 doesn’t even come within a country mile of the intelligence and wit seen in the first 2 seasons of TOS, or in any of the Nick Meyer movies. I’m glad it didn’t make it in.”"”
I’m going to side with #4.
We would all like to have seen this happen but there’s no way on Gods green earth that Shatner would have settled for a 2 min cameo, equal to Nimoy or nothing is what I believe he would have said
now let it rest
19:
I think “Your father’s Star Trek” refers more to TNG and its ilk than to TOS. JJ’s film is a tribute to the “leap without looking” spirit of TOS. TNG spawned the idea of organized conferences and consensus as a way to solve problems over seat-of-the-pants decision making by the top officer(s).
ST09 is very much a tribute to the 1966 original, with fistfights, booze, girls, and the use of instinct in the field over consensus to move the situation forward.
If Shatner is not directly written as a primary role in the sequel then it will never happen. The Shat will want like 10-20 million bucks to be in it. So, for it to happen, Paramount will need to know this when they get the first script. Love the Shat, 20 million is a bargain.
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO AND NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
MOVE ON PLEASE.
The movie was excellent. The scene would have made it even more excellent. William Shatner plus Bob’s ability to write for Kirk Prime would make a fine addition to a sequel.
@21:
“We need to remember the central protagonist of Trek as an active, vigorous young man, and not one who is overshadowed by the man he was … in another life.”
Spot on, Hat Rick. In theory, I’m not opposed at all to the concept of having the Shat make a final appearance to give the new crew a proper send off. Theoretically I can see how that would add an even greater emotional lift to an already satisfying ending. But the scene as written…not so much. Ending the movie on a note of wistful nostalgia, on the final words of a tired old man returning from the grave to remind us once again how tired and old he felt for the last four movies (and having him talk about all the young new recruits just compounds the error, in my opinion)…that kind of goes against the entire point of this film, which is to make Trek feel fresh and new again. I can see the writing team trying to make it work, with talk about how much of the galaxy is still unexplored and all that still waits out there…but looking forward is hard to do while looking backward. I think this is one of those cases where an idea on its own sounds just dandy, but fails in the context of an overall story. Kind of like how you feel about the tragedy of the Klingons and Spock’s birth being cut until you see them on the DVD, and realize how little they add. But maybe I’m wrong.
Obviously the time has passed to do this scene in the sequel, this particular scene I think. I would like them to just bring back old Kirk somehow and put him in with the old Spock but I doubt that will happen as well. This will most likely stand on it’s own, aside of course from plundering the universe for things to redo.
The de-aging effect they did on Patrick Stewart was ATROCIOUSLY TERRIBLE!
Bring Back Kirk Prime at All Costs! Trek will benefit
Have Shat play Chris Pine’s long lost, wacky uncle a la Denny Crane.
But Spock left Vulcan for Romulus around 2368…
24, maybe, but most of the world still thinks of TOS when they think of Trek. (”Beam me up” beats “Make it so,” I think.) And this film isn’t about the TNG crew, it’s about the Classic crew, and young version of it — so why dilute it by bringing in someone who played the Classic crew at its oldest?
28, I’m glad we agree.
It is a terrible fact of life that there’s something about aging that does not do justice to an action movie. Sean Connery’s last Bond movie (albeit not produced by Albert Broccoli) is often seen as a pale version of his earlier ones. His physique no longer lent credibility to the role; he seemed to phone it in, besides. And then, quoth critics, Roger Moore got long the tooth and detracted, for that reason, from his Bond as well.
Clearly, the Supreme Court wants to balance the needs of the old archetype with the new. I think that putting Shatner’s Kirk in would have been putting a thumb on the scales in favor of Trek the Elder, which would have made the entire enterprise a different one from that which was promised. And that, in the end, is perhaps the deciding factor.
Ive been thinking about the Shat scene since the last thread…..the scene is obviously great but perhaps it didnt need to be as long/schmaltzy as that or even include Shatner of today acting it out (plus as mentioned the scene is leaning toward being abit of a gimmick just to have shatner in there wrapping it all up – and it wouldve obviously detracted somewhat from Nimoys involvement)
so it couldve been just a fun blink and you’ll miss it cameo – something similar to the Death Star holo-cameo near the end of Episode II…(plus Spock Primes hologram right at the start of ST09)
e.g. – on the narada in his search for Pike, young Kirk finds Spock Primes holo emmiter thing (nero having taken it- not that wed know that, wed just assume it was neros) activates it and sees Kirk Prime (Shatner from ST movie era – no need for him as today)…watches it briefly (im talking all of about 5-10 seconds) them Wham! – hes set upon by Nero and or his henchman…cue fighting, ‘i know your face’…’ive got your gun’ etc…in the fighting holo thing falls into the abyss…lost
so kirk would catch a fleeting glimpse of his alternate future (he was obviously curious as he asked Spock Prime in the ice cave) – not just Spock 2.0. but cant take it all in before all the fighting starts….then whatever it was is lost…..(kinda like Langdon in Angels & Demons when hes in the Vatican archives and just glimpses stuff that he desperately wants to see but cant look in any detail – or Indy at the end of Raiders and Crystal Skull)
I was hoping the alternate future would play more of a role in the Narada conclusion beyond the ‘I know your face…from earths history..’
anyway just my 2c about how ‘Shatner’ couldve been in the movie….
HA! It makes me happy to see this become an issue, because of all the things they cut, I agree with. But choosing not to do this scene I DON’T agree with.
Art is not a matter of sheer opinion. Plan Nine From Outer Space is NOT one of the greatest SF films ever made. There are reasons why some things work better than others, and this scene fulfills more promises than the ending we got.
Shakespeare revised his work throughout his life. He didn’t set down a piece of writing and say it is done forever. And though it is harder to add new material to a film than a journal, it is also VERY FAR from IMpossible.
They CAN add this scene and re-release the movie and then they can re-release the DVD with an all new special feature on why they redid the ending, and on the fan movement that pushed and pushed and pushed for it.
So let’s push.
Star Trek doesn’t teach us to say BUT THAT’S IMPOSSIBLE, IT CAN’T BE DONE!
Sure it can.
JJ should think about it at least. He should read what people are saying and why, and see if what they say has any merit, if it’s persuasive to him personally. Because if he finds what we are saying personally persuasive, then it becomes his feeling as well.
I love what JJ did for the franchise and I appreciate his talent, but he’s allowed to rethink things and change his mind too.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
After being reminded of ‘The Curious Case of Benjamin Button’ just now, I’ve completely changed my mind and think the scene should have been done and included so long as they were going to pay enough attention to detail and do it right, with de-aging Shatner with the help of computer technology of course being paramount in their handling of it. This scene should have been filmed and included in the final cut in my opinion, even if they had to find a reasonable explanation as to why Spock would have deemed it necessary or appropriate to bring the holographic pendant along with him prior to his deciding to give it to young Spock; there’s no reason why they couldn’t have addressed that in a reasonable and believable manner without it taking up much time in the movie.
However, having said that–I think it’s too late to now try and do this for the sequel. They had their chance and they blew it. Trying to do it in the next movie to make up for their not having done it in the first film just won’t carry the same weight and will look forced IMO. Their opportunity for that kind of a poignant scene was here at the end of this film. That time has now passed for good though unfortunately.
Bob was right, JJ was…not so right.
38 – agreed, the next film really has to be a new crew standalone thing – like FC was for TNG
That scene really, really should’ve been in Trek XI. Shatner deserves a proper final Kirk moment.
Get it in! And get him in the next one.. end of!
Enough with the calls for a “Director’s Cut”.
We GOT the Director’s Cut. Right there in the theater and now on Blu-ray/DVD. Abrams (in an article here no less) has said he doesn’t want to recut it, that *he* made the cuts and he stands by them. It’s a little presumptuous for a few fans to second-guess something JJ Abrams is happy with.
am I the one who thinks this Kirk scene seemed very contrived.
It would have been great to see Shatner at the end but it seems to me that it just wouldn’t work.
For the film Spocks Good Luck works fine.
As much as I love the new Trek film I do think it suffered from lazy and contrived writing and to me this is a step in the contrived department.
As much as I like the idea of Kirk Prime being in the first movie somehow, I don’t think the execution would have lived up to it. This was a perfect hand off from the prime universe to the new universe. Let’s go, I want to see what is out there. Let it be something new, no Kirk, no Khan.
I would have loved Shatner to be in the film, he is still the one and only Kirk. I like Pine but to me Shatner is always the Kirk I love
But I honestly felt this scene was forced and just there to shoehorn Shatner into the film, it was not organic to the film.
Yeah! just do it you guys! It’s easy!
(And you KNOW Shat would go for it!!)
The Shatner scene would have been nice but the film did not suffer without it. There are so many tributes to previous Trek characters as it is. Shatner’s scene could actually have been too much. One of my favorites is Scotty’s mention of Admiral Archer’s prized beagle. Very nice.
I’m with those who say Shatner already got his cameo in Generations. Unlike Nimoy, he did not have the intuitive vision to recognize a below-par script, and he did not protect the integrity of his character.
He could’ve done what Nimoy did. He could’ve said ‘This isn’t the right script,’ and declined. If he had, Berman, Moore and Brega -with their studio-mandated shopping list of items to include in the movie- might’ve been forced to realize they really needed to do their homework to make TNG screenworthy (something I don’t think even First Contact properly achieved).
So I can’t help (not) feeling sympathy for Shatner. He got his ST cameo movie. He just didn’t choose the right one.
From Screencrave:
“I’m not even a Trekkie and I can see the wasted opportunity in this.”
Love it. Even the non fans know.
I’m glad they didn’t include Shat. The scene is ok, but totally unnecessary and to me, would not have improved the movie.
From a “big picture” point of view how things have played out make sense when we realize Spock was the first major character in TOS, with The Cage. Kirk was second, so that Prime Kirk got his goodbye with Generations first makes sense… it’s appropriate Prime Spock, being the longer-running character of TOS, gets the last goodbye.
As it went, it works. Everything else is just Shatner nostalgia, which I completely have no problem with… just let it go.
“I really like this sequence as scripted… and feels it nicely addresses a nagging, nitpicky issue I had with the film: there’s not enough gravitas when QuintoSpock steps onto the Enterprise bridge at the end of the movie, and asks PineKirk for permission to come aboard. Spock Prime has already tipped off PineKirk and QuintoSpock to the profundity and consequence of their friendship (”a friendship that will define you both” is what Nimoy tells QuintoSpock, for example) – PineKirk simply “granting” QuintoSpock permission to join the crew at the end doesn’t feel quite accentuated enough.
- AICN”
That’s also a good point. I really love how Kirk Prime in this scene is the factor that drives Spock’s decision to rejoin the crew. Spock Prime telling young Spock to rejoin IS oddly self serving. But coming from the elder Kirk to this young Spock, I can’t help but feel that young Spock gets a sense of what awaits him in the future as part of this crew, and in friendship to this odd human Captain whom he is not very fond of at the moment. Spock seems to grow in that very moment here toward the character we know that he will be; thus, after this scene, when he steps aboard the bridge, I DO get the feeling that maybe this crew is ready for a five year mission. With this scene included, I feel maybe they do NOT have to use part of the time of the second movie explaining things like Kirk’s fast promotion or Spock’s change of heart towards Kirk or whether Kirk has the gravitas to lead the Enterprise.
See, I don’t think JJ foresaw those problems, but Bob did. So in being captured by this idea that it was “gimmicky,” JJ lost a more valuable opportunity.
One other thing. I don’t think it’s gimmicky at all, but let’s say for the sake of argument that it is. Is that enough of a concern to lose all this scene is worth? For all this scene provides to the movie, is the word “gimmicky” enough to trump what importance and value the scene brings to the film?
I don’t think so.
Yes!Bring back the Shat as Jabba the hut…..Oh wait,wrong franchise!
Sorry!!!!!!
This is the newest top reference to the term, “beating a dead horse”.
Sheeesh.
Slightly off-topic, but if they can use CGI to shave decades of aging from one’s appearance… What is Brent Spiner’s argument now?
Also:
This begs the question… how many flippin’ times are we supposed to “say goodbye” to Captain Kirk? We already said goodbye… TWICE! Or are people forgetting TREK VI along with GENERATIONS?
Do we really, truly, honestly need to say goodbye to Kirk a THIRD time??? And what happens when Shatner DIES? Will Trekkies demand that he be properly dedicated in some way in STAR TREK 3.0 or STAR TREK, PART 4 IN 3-D?
I mean, really… come on. It’s over.
The worst part of the CGI in that DirecTV commercial was that The Shat ended up looking eerily like a slightly pre-Grumpy Old Men-era Walter Matthau…………..!!!!!!!!!!!
The only reason I saw the current movie 15 times at the theater was to help make it a success so there could be another one with Shatner in it. While this scene is good it is a waste of Bill’s talent.
I don’t think Shatner’s age would be that big of a deal. He looks good for being nearly 80. He runs, skis, does yoga, etc. Spock Prime has aged so much more that he would look younger by comparison. Bill has also lost weight since Boston Legal. I would love to see him brought back in the next movie. He really needs to be reunited with Spock Prime. Original Star Trek was always the ultimate love story.
William Shatner will always be Captain Kirk to me, I mean, watch any of the orginal series and you can tell that was the one role he was ment to fill.
TJ Hooker? Clearly TJ was one of Kirk’s previous lives… Rescue 911? Captain Kirk wearing a suit and calling himself william shatner… and yes, the only reason I watched that show is because he was in it.
I watched “City on the Edge” again recently which is an excellent example of Kirk.
I believe Chris Pine will be an excellent Kirk, but William Shatner MADE Kirk the Captain we recognize.
The scene for shatner wasn’t bad and would have been a welcome addition to the movie, but I would much rather see a movie that took DS9’s “trials and tribble-ations” but instead had Pine on Shat’s enterprise, something along the lines of mirror mirror.
I don’t know, I’m just rambling… I want to see Shat in the chair one more time, but I think Pine’s as Kirk still lacks the “class” of Shat’s kirk. I think there needs to be something so that Pine’s Kirk can see how much effort it took for Kirk Prime to get to the Captains Chair. I think Pine’s Kirk needs to have a “hard lesson” that makes him rethink about the center chair so hard that only Spock Prime or Kirk Prime can help. So either Spock melds with him and shows him Kirk Primes life from Spocks perspective, or Spock gives Pine’s Kirk some hologram, where Kirk Prime talks about loosing his son, crew members, loosing spock, edith keeler, etc… and how his friendship with Spock and the knowledge of the good they had done together kept him going through the years….
I think it comes down to Hollywood politics. They probably didn’t want to have to deal with Shatner, so they left it out. They’re still avoiding it, despite the obvious majority in favor of it. So come on guys, set aside what ever beefs you may have and next time a choice like that comes up, do what’s best for the film.
Shatner’s age is nothing, but excuse. If the creative team really want him in the next film they will find a way. This is Star Trek where nearly every major character has “died” at least once
The scene that Bob Orci wrote was well done and would have added a lot to the last film…How can William Shatner in a Star Trek film ever be a bad thing?
If Khan is in the sequel, 9and I hope there’s a flashback to the Eugenics wars0, the weight of the situation could be mirrored by words of wisdom by kirk prime throughout the film. take the scene as written and spread it across the film in snippets, or something?
JUST PUT IT IN ANYWAY!
P
In the side by side of patrick stewart.. He looks alot like tom hardy!!!
Just kidding!!! hahahahahhahahhahhahaa!!!!! :)
Not to mention Arnold in Terminator Salvation was CGI of a younger Arnold and that looked totally real even in HD. Technically only need Shatner’s voice and just CGI him.
#63 Don’t misunderstand what I am about to say because I am totally in the tank for Shatner as Kirk BUT:
“How can William Shatner in a Star Trek film ever be a bad thing?”
um……..Star Trek V
I would have liked to see Bill in the movie.
It’s always easy to judge an unfilmed scene and criticize the director for not including it. While I would like to see William Shatner return, it has to be done right so that it doesn’t detract from the movie. In other words, what looks good on paper might not be on film. I enjoyed the end of the movie as it was.
Having said that, I believe that J.J Abrams, Bob Orci and co. will do their best to have Kirk Prime in the next movie in some capacity.
#8 The reason that Deep Space Nine, Voyager, and Enterprise did not move to the big screen was because the demand wasn’t there. The Next Generation had a much bigger audience than the other series. But aside from First Contact the TNG brand wasn’t as successful on the big screen as the original cast were. Killing Kirk off in Generations didn’t help much either. If Paramount had a do-over they would not have made that mistake.
Going back to the original crew was the logical thing to do to get the franchise back on track.
Finally, this topic has provided lots of debate with many valid points being made whether you are for a cameo or against.
we have the technology…
Capes #67
Good point.
BRING BACK SHATNER.
That is all.
I think the movie worked fine without him. And there’s no reason to continue to pursue Kirk Prime in the second movie. Lets focus on a great story that builds on these ‘new’ characters and ‘new’ civilizations.
Can’t wait for a ‘new’ Next Generation…..
*ducks*
Voodoo (#63), here’s why it would be a bad thing. I truly feel that bringing back Shatner would feel forced and out-of-sync with what was started with the new movie. I’m a fan and I’ve always loved Shatner as Kirk since in my opinion, he IS Kirk, but I feel the same exasperation that Orci and the others must be feeling with Star Trek fans who want Shatner in a sequel. It’s cheesy because it comes off as self-serving to the Trekkies only (those that want him in the sequel) and loses focus of the idea that it’s a new start for the franchise, not a set of reunion movies. It’s time to move on with the characters and story and realize that the reason the new Trek movie worked is because they breathed new life into it.
Nimoy in the new film made sense and it worked, but like I mentioned before, to even bring him or Shatner back would turn it into a reunion series of movies and that’s not what the new start is all about. If he was to be brought back, this latest movie would have been it, but even then, with the small part he would have had, I’m not so sure it would have fit. If we bring back Shatner in the sequel, then why not Koenig, Takei or Nichols? Why not bring back one actor from the original series using a time travel plot device in every sequel? That way, we can get them all in there! Yeah, that’s it! Then we Trekkies can have our original series back and…and….and…
Yeah, whatever. I would ask you and others not to ruin a good thing here.
Forgive the Vulcan pun, but it would be logical from a business standpoint that during this two-year layoff between Trek films that Paramount release a special edition to theatres and/or dvd that includes the deleted scenes with finished effects and convince Shatner to film the said scene.
It would be ….. fun.
As I said in a response to the earlier article, they could write a comic explaining the resurrection of Kirk Prime as a prequel to the sequel. Similar to Countdown. Or, better yet, make it an animated prequel featuring not just the voice of William Shatner but Patrick Stewart and some of the TNG cast. That way, they can give TNG fans something to chew on, correct a huge mistake, while providing some additional content for all fans in general. Plus it would be canon, unlike, UNFORTUNEATLY, Countdown.
#73 I’m afraid a “New Next Generation” won’t happen for awhile. Paramount will want to continue with the current cast, while CBS wants to focus on CSI. Even if CBS were to do a series, it would most likely take place in the 23rd century on a ship with a name other than Enterprise.
De-aging Shatner shouldn’t be too much of a problem. CGI seems to keep getting better and they did a swell job in this movie
I would like to know what Anthony’s opinion is about the proposed Shatner scene and if he’d like to see him back as Captain James T. Kirk one last time.
“How can William Shatner in a Star Trek film ever be a bad thing?”
um……..Star Trek V
um …. so ST V was totally Mr. Shatner? I could have sworn Mr. Nimoy and a gaggle of TOS stars also participated.
Besides, this whole “Will Shatner be in ST Movie” issue is not Mr. Shatner’s making. Web sites and news organizations bring it up. They ask him the same questions and he gives basically the same answer.
# 74 I agree- you said it very well- thank you.
With that said this topic has turned into what feels so similiar to some experiences I have had as an ER nurse.
A person comes in very sick, near death or worse dead. Everyone works very hard to bring this person who is loved by family and friends back to life, but sometimes after the person has suffered the effects of no oxygen for quite some time, (or other calamidies) you wonder, IF we are successful at bringing this beloved person back, and they live, what type of life will that person have? Will the family be able to interact with that person like the time before the event? OF COURSE we all want VERY badly to have that person sit up and talk to us like nothing never happened when we finish, but that isn’t reality.
Does this make sense? I never thought of the revival of the (very good) but old Trek like that until after reading some of the posts above. We all LOVE the old Trek very much, but sometimes it is in the best interests of everyone to let it go. Allow the former to maintain dignity, and not suffer in the future by good intentions that result only in prolonging the inevitable.
Ok, need to lighten it up- but, I AM a nurse first! I don’t want to be comparing a movie or series to life and death, but hey, that’s what I do. It in a weird way makes sense to me. :)
Forget about the Shatman and concentrate on “FIXING” the Enterprise.
I do wish the “Supreme Court” would just come clean and admit that they just didn’t want the Shatman in their new movie. It’s their movie and they had every right to decide to keep him out.
All the BS about not being able to come up with a “logical” way to include him is plain silly. We are talking about bringing back a character into a Sci-Fi / fantasy / fictional movie. So Kirk died in his last movie. Of all the things we are asked to go along with in the new movie, this is the deal breaker? Really?
And please drop the Budweiser backdrop, regardless of how much free beer they offer the crew.
Reading the scene had me choke up a bit.
It was wonderfully written and I could hear Shatner’s voice in my head as Kirk.
BUT, there was all the talk about Shatner wanting a role as big as Nimoy.
He WOULDNT have been happy with this one scene.
I think Shatner would have made it impossible for the supreme court to do their job with the franchise.
JJ said any attempt made to bring Shatner in would have looked like a fanboy attempt and I’m inclined to agree.
Giving him a major role I think would have weighed down the movie a bit.
Nimoys age made him look right as Spock Prime.
Also when one looks at the current physical shape Shatner is in I feel he would have looked foolish in a Star Fleet uniform.
I loved reading the scene and yes it would have been great to see it but I think Shatner would not have been happy doing a cameo in front of a green screen.
ST:09 was a fantastic movie!! I saw it five times in the cinema.
If Messers Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman did a “special edition” of ST:09, I could see adding that scene if Mr. Shatner wants to do it. However, not having it will NOT take away from the fabulous original version. OK that’s an awkward sentence, but I think y’all get it.
Let’s also remember this is the movies; anything can happen. Maybe in the sequel Spock could receive a package from Spock prime and when he opens it, inside he finds….or maybe not.
Live Long and Prosper and Boldly Go!
I’m not sure this would’ve worked in the movie. I like the film as it is. Having said that, I would be interesting to have a series of these hololetters. Perhaps McCoy comes across them by some Deus Ex Machina. Maybe there is some strife between Kirk and Spock. Bones decides not to show the letters to Kirk or Spock but instead plays mediator by using that future knowledge. This way we have the triad develop, which was missing in the first film. Further, Bones is able to play the “bartender psychologist”. The Shatner stuff is peppered throughout so he’s not slighted. Also he’s the answer to neo-Spock and Kirks issues.
Bring Back Shat/Kirk Prime in the next movie! De-Age him with CGI as they did Arnold in Terminator Salvation. Give him a key role. Find a way to save Vulcan. It’s not like they haven’t done similar things in other episodes/movies. This is Star Trek, there are always possibilities.
well, de-aging is one thing, but can we de-cheese, de-ironize, and de-schlock him?
why do we need him anyway? i mean hell, just cgi him from some old footage and remix some old shat dialog, yeah, and give him a hundred grand for using his image.
the world of film/internet is so goofy now that i don’t think i would care if they did the scene or not. glad to have the movie. sorry people are so hard on it sometimes. trek is great these days. people, however, are disappointing.
Shatner in the film would not have fixed the glaring premise flaw.
But, at least the film would have been incrementally better.
Mr. Orci–in a few minutes of screen time, you have written a scene that, with the exception of a few people that would pretty much hate anything involving Shatner, would have pleased millions of Star Trek fans.
I dare you to do better.
Star Trek 12. Kirk Prime returns.
Use that creativity of yours to deal with Generations. The ends justify the means, and if the ends get Kirk Prime and Spock Prime together, riding off into the sunset on that next mission (as you wrote), then you will do a great service to Trek fandom.
I agree with everyone who says “let it rest”. I love the original TOS cast and Shatner, but the new cast needs to stand on its own now. Nimoy “passed the torch” in this movie, as if it were necessary. (my opinion is that is was not)
I loved the movie, and no insult meant to Nimoy, but with a litttle different script, this movie & new crew could have stood on its own without “Spock Prime”.
IMO.
No thank you. Leave him out. Time to move on with the new keepers of the franchise.
nope-i agree that the scene while well written is almost too sentimental and would only be meaningful to ole time fans while confusing or making new audiences think that maybe this is the old trek after all-ie overly detailed w canon and overly self obsessive geeky-no reason for it dont do it-
OMG! Time to move on! Star Trek shouldn’t be a nostalgia trip; it should be about the here and now and showcase the excellent new cast. The only folks braying for Shatner are the old-timers, who represent a small fraction of the moviegoing audience today! BTW, I’m an old-timer myself. : )
Jim- I say put it in.
I did get really choked up reading this. I think it would be a wonderful addition to the movie as it would further connect the two Universes. It would have been wonderful to see Kirk one more time too.
While I admire the writing of this final V.O. I think it would detract in a way from all the young actors accomplished in making this new Trek theirs, and in a glorious fashion. The did what few thought they could do, it might have been wrong to undercut them and remind the audience that ‘hey’ they really aren’t Kirk etc… It really is a fine line.
As it is, I wished Pine had been given the nod to give the Space… The Final Frontier V.O. to really signal his ascention to the Kirk role
Sorry for all the typos, but you get the idea. Let these new guys take the helm for real. Shatner is great, but perhaps not the right time for him in the movie. Now I would love to see Tiberius Kirk, Captain of the I.S.S. Enterprise in the next or third film played by Shatner, that would be a scene chewing delight.
#78 “um …. so ST V was totally Mr. Shatner? I could have sworn Mr. Nimoy and a gaggle of TOS stars also participated.”
I make it a point to try and not be inflamatory…..but did you fall on your head? It was totally Shatner Driven. Not trying to start anything so I’ll let this one go after this.
Nuff said!
# 67
Star Trek V is far better than the new J.J. Movie.
In the ST ‘09 Commentary, they talked about getting wild and having as much fun with the concept as they could get away with until they get fired from the production.
IF: the last JJ/Orci movie is about the Mirror Kirk, and they make him do 100 takes of every scene until he gets tired and delivers it like a good actor instead of a ham (That’s what makes Wrath so great)
Then: ST ‘15 will be the “Greatest Movie Ever” Otherwise it will be another Priceline commercial, complete with I wanna sex you up bongos.
Line 10: goto Line 10
Introducing Evil Kirk from the Mirror Universe — yes, that is a possibility I can foresee for Shatner’s reappearance.
The Terran Empire in the Mirror Universe would not necessarily hold senior officers to the same physical standards as would the Federation; Evil Kirk (a.k.a. Mirror Kirk) could very easily have let himself go as time went on or be suffering some of kind of premature aging syndrome; or we could encounter the future of the Mirror Universe, in which Evil Kirk has become Romanesque Emperor Kirk, complete with the physique thereof. (Ironic, wouldn’t that be, given that the villain of ST2009 shared the name of a Roman emperor.)
The Terran Empire was seized by Mirror James T. Kirk, who assassinated the entire Imperial Court using a powerful alien device of unknown origin — thirty-five years ago. The Terran Empire has subjugated or destroyed thousands of planets in the ceaseless pursuit of power. Now, an aging but still aggressive Mirror Kirk desires to conquer new worlds in other universes … including one in which his younger self looks very much like Chris Pine….
BTW, that would be Emperor Tiberius, a.k.a. Mirror James T. Kirk.
The SHAT is FAT and leave it at THAT!
I still think Chris Pine needs to emote to evoke The Shat regardless of whether The Shat is in the sequel.
101. Pine did emote Shat in a few scenes. Watch the end where comes on the bridge and talks to Bones. Also, earlier when he meets Spock Prime.
96:
“And if my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a wagon.”
Kurtzman and Orci should run with the idea of the mirror universe for the next movie. It’s the perfect way to shoehorn Shatner back into the Star Trek franchise. A perfect role for Shatner, on the level of Khan.
Boborci, I’ve said (Probabbly too many times) How I’d like the second movie to start with a renewed ending of a classic episode and then jump to something new.
I think ST 2009 was better without Shatner but, you know what? I think now the second movie should start with the Shatner hologram scene as a flashback, so Shatner makes it here and we can move on from all this.
104, I’m glad someone else thinks the Mirror Universe has possibilities. :-)
There are many possibilities for the next movie; the trick is to find the one that best captures the zeitgeist, the tenor of the times.
We could do the Pike-leads-a-Federation charge movie; the return-of-Khan movie; the Mirror-Kirk movie. And there are dozens more possibilities, I’m sure, ranging from character-centric plots to grand stories of the rise and fall of star empires. The colonization of New Vulcan could itself be a whole movie. The possibilities are vast.
Which possibility would best serve the franchise, the crew, the actors, the writers, the spirit of the times, and — last but not least — the possibilities for financial success? After all, they don’t make movies for free, and investors expect a return.
And then there is the star factor; overseas markets seem to demand bigger stars. How big a star can Trek afford, in addition to the cast we already know? Could they cast Brad Pitt as a renegade captain? Angelina Jolie as a femme fatale and foil for Uhura? Matt Damon as Kirk’s older brother? Can Trek finally attract an A-lister in a starring role?
These and other questions will be answered — as the universe turns. Like the sands of time, these are the days of Trek….
:-)
Restatement, as corrected: “Which possibility would best serve the franchise, the crew, the actors, the writers, the spirit of the times, and — last but not least — the requirements of financial success?”
One further note: ST2009’s cinematic release and now the DVD and BD sales have tended to prove that a revitalized Trek has legs. The Playmates thing is something of an aberration, it seems to me. The question is whether Paramount will invest in enough money for star power to power this new Trek. Money for sets and designs is something of a sunk cost; further, new efficiencies can be availed simply because basic CGI programming can be reused. The wheel need only be invented once. While the next Trek movie should have loads of and even better SFX and production quality, the cost of achieving them should be proportionately lower.
Which leaves money, it seems to me, to attract the kind of name of which previous generations of Trek movies could only dream.
Say what you will about the declining value of A-list stars, in certain parts of the world, they apparently still matter. A lot.
Finally, I know that some people may point to Christopher Plummer as an example of an A-lister. While he is in fact a great actor — some say the greatest — I am uncertain he really qualifies as an A-lister, even back in the days of ST VI. In this respect, he is probably more of an analog of Alec Guinness — an excellent thespian, but not quite the superstar that would pull crowds into theaters by name alone.
#106 rather generously daydreams: “There are many possibilities for the next movie; the trick is to find the one that best captures the zeitgeist, the tenor of the times. [...] Pike-leads-a-Federation charge movie; the return-of-Khan movie; the Mirror-Kirk movie. And there are dozens more possibilities, I’m sure, ranging from character-centric plots to grand stories of the rise and fall of star empires. The colonization of New Vulcan could itself be a whole movie. The possibilities are vast.”
I’m cautiously limiting my hopes to any story that isn’t just “BAD GUY SHOW UP, HE BE MEAN, KIRK GOTTA KILLUM KABOOM, HUH-DUR.”
But we’ll see how that goes. If it helps to add Brad Pitt, that’s fine too.
Come on you digital geeks. I’m sure that s
Shat/Kirk has said almost all of those words/limes somethere. Time to do research and do a mash up to bring the scene to life. I recall Shat singing Happy Birthday in the Trek blooper reels…now get to work and post it on YouTube!!!
109, with apologies to the Monkees, I guess I’m just a daydream believer.
How long does it take to make a movie? Six months in pre-production? Six weeks’ shooting? Six years for a writer to dream it all up in the first place? How about 30 days? That’s the challenge a group of three young L.A. filmmakers have set themselves. Their aim is to make a 90 minute feature film – from initial concept to production – in just one month. Start date, November 20th, 2009. Here is their website that is documenting their progress day by day. http://www.30dayfeaturefilmchallenge.com – check out the current dream team in just 8 days. Challenge yourself, JOIN THEM!!!
A semester in film school usually about does it. You could even do it in 30 minutes, though. It depends on what KIND of movie. Happens all the time in the San Fernando Valley, if you get my drift. :-P
I’m with jj in keeping the scene out. It wouldve felt forced and gimmicky. And the de-ageing in wolverine looked terible, but then so did most of the special effects. I’m sure the team behind star trek could do a much better job, considering how impressivethe effects were in this year’s movie.
I wager there’s an *ahem* enterprising person on YouTube figuring how to do just this as we speak!
-cs™
113. Hat Rick
As someone who lives in the Valley, I do. Very much so.
If they were going to do it they should have done it in the recent film. It would have tied in nicely and no oe would have not seen the film for it.
To bring Shat in for the next film would seem like they are not moving on.
The only thing they can d now, and it would be a huge money maker, would be to film the scene and release a new blu ray with it in down the track.
I wouldn’t mind or be surprised if there wasn’t some sort of Special Edition of ST09 released in time for the next film. We all know how marketting men are . . . especially Paramount ones!!! ;)
If the Shatner scene was inserted in that along with some Klingon scenes, it’d be rather wonderful. We all know that ‘Special Editions’ aren’t necessarily as well-paced or -structured as the theatrical releases, but it’s nice to see them included anyway.
That said, I believe the next film should be completely standalone. Theoretically, you could make a film next time that, barring the higher technology used to make it, could easily fit into the era of the original show or the new movie franchise! I mean, there’s no real need to include Pike, Sarek, Spock Prime, Vulcan’s destruction and so on next time: just tell a classic Trek tale with all the advantages a huge budget allows!
52 – agreed there is a pleasing symmetric element at work:
-Shatner passed to baton from TOS to TNG in Generations…
-Nimoy passed to baton from the TNG era back to TOS
All is well
@118
I totally agree.
I’m not even a trekkir or anything but it would be cool to see Nero and the Klingons, and the Shatner scene seemed good just as a scene, it would’ve been cool if any1 was playing it not just the original actor for kirk
A way to get Shatner as Kirk in the next movie would be to set part of it in the future, where Kirk is older. No need for time travel. I believe one of the producers was talking about how he liked the idea of the story jumping around at points in time. You could have a co-story with Pine’s Kirk and Shatner’s Kirk at various points with something that ties it together. Of course, Shatner would be playing an older alternate universe Kirk. Just an idea.
Personally, I would love for them to re-film that one scene and add it into the movie – maybe with the deleted scenes edited in, maybe without. I love STXI for what it is right now and would be content with leaving it as it is…but at the same time, having this filmed/included somehow would be amazing.
That being said, I also think that STXII should be complete set apart from the TOS era. As much as I love Shatner, Nimoy and everybody/thing else in TOS, I feel like it would be overkill if they tried to make the movie Shatner-centric. Pine, Quinto, Urban, Cho, Pegg, and Salandra did an amazing job with the last film and they deserve their own chance to shine in the next movie.
Ok. Put the scene in and have it for the Start of the Next Trek movie. It would be grand.
Put the time line back the way it was and then you can put the Shatner scene in it. Put all the stuff of their days in the academy back in. All the great adventures, lecturers, teachers, and experiences the original show eluded to constantly that the movie condensed to ‘Three Years Later’, and then I’ll take all the contrived Shatner scenes these boys want to write. Otherwise I don’t want it. The Kirk that Shatner played doesn’t represent the one they’ve done here. So there’s no sentimentality here on my part thinking about that scene. It doesn’t belong.
The film just didn’t feel right without Mr. Shatner in it.
Don’t get me wrong I really loved the movie, but the one element that it was missing was William Shatner as Kirk. The written scene would have worked quite well… To be honest I shed a tear upon reading it.
If the writers are out there please try and find a way to have both Mr. Shatner and Mr. Nimoy in the next film.
What a powerful moment it would be to see these two legends untied one last time as Kirk and Spock.
I also want to see Leonard Nimoy and William Shatner involved in the next Star Trek film.
I would be happy if they are given a 60 second long scene where it is proven that Kirk prime is given a happy ending.
What would be cooler than Shat + Nimoy involved in the next film?
The scene sounds great on paper, but honestly….I can’t see Shatner pulling it off in a subtle way….unless the computer tech can de-ham as well as de-age. lol
Maybe he could do it…he did some great work in ST:2 and 3.
I’ll have Star Trek 2012, Hold the Shatner.
JJ is a smart man, as good as the scene was written and everything, he knew that scene would steal the thunder from the new crew and the main story line. It would have created too much misdirection and take focus away from what the new actors accomplished in the past 2hours and take away from the reboot.
It would have made the ending feel so much better. I teared when I read it.
Great Saturn’s BALLS!!! You fellas who are complaining this scene was too sentimental — you need to get a dose of real sentimentality to better distinguish between sentimentality and poignancy.
If you don’t have a girlfriend, get one. If you have trouble in that Enterprise, borrow someone’s — just tell her you actually WANT to see a bunch of chik fliks. Even if you look like Jabba the Hut, she’ll jump up and down and squeak happy happy.
And you’ll be treated to such unrelenting sentimentality you’re gonna wish you installed a zipper in the back of your skin so you could leave the theater without her knowing it.
I really wish they had left the timeline in tact and not changed the whole story from this point on. So many stories now do not ‘pan’ right. I hope the new crew will go back in time and fix it in the next film.
Having William Shatner in the film would have been great.
And somebody PLEASE tell me exactly HOW all these astounding claims that 2 minutes of Shatner and the END of the movie, most of it in VO, would have stolen the thunder from and overshadowed the new crew or otherwise inexplicably caused the audience to suddenly reject 124 previous minutes of mind blowing cinematic superbulousity and instantly recast it sourly as daddy’s Star Trek?
Indeed, given Spock’s age and his much greater role in the film, we should expect by the same logic that the audience would’ve walked away saying it was their GRANDFATHER’S Trek. Didn’t happen.
So how do these criticisms manage to apply to Shatner’s brief presence but NOT to Spock’s prolonged one?
You guys aren’t making any sense at all.
I mean, I know Shatner’s gotten bigger over the years, but he hasn’t achieved the mass of a singularity, so I reeaally don’t think we have to worry that a brief nearby presence for Shatner is going to be dangerous to the new crew.
As Captain of USS Voyager, I would like to see Kirk Prime as Orci presented it. IT would have made a fine addition to the movie. There are always possibilities to every situation. I say add it to the dvd or blu rays as an alternative ending and let the public decided. I already bought my dvd , but would buy the alternative in a minute.
JJ, if it wouldn’t be for us original Trekkers, I doubt if you would have even considered doing the movie. It has been us who have kept the franchise alive all these 40 years, and it was us who went back 4 or 5 times to see this movie that help it to skyrocket to #1 fir you. IT is good to satisfy the non-trekkers, but know where loyalty lies with us originals. Keep us happy also. We’re not over-the-hill – yet !
In the early days of Trek ‘09 production I was fairly vocal, initially, in calling for Bill to be included. As time rolled on i changed my mind. Bill just didn’t ‘look’ like Kirk any more. Whilst I find this technology (to de-age) amazing I don’t see the point. Why not just ‘age’ Pine?
No, I love Bill but I’ve come to the realisation that I didn’t so much want Bill back as much as i wanted Kirk back. In Chris (and the writers that understand the TOS characters) I have that. And I’m still in heaven about it!
That being said I do think the scene as written was good and I wouldn’t have been upset one bit if it had been included.
Spock Prime’s role was organic in the sense that his presence was essential to bringing Kirk into a position of power. Beyond that, inclusion of the old crew would tend toward superfluity.
If we are to include both Kirk Prime and Spock Prime, then why not include McCoy Prime (aside from the fact that DeForest Kelley is no longer with us)? Was McCoy not part of the triumvirate? Was he not part of the soul of Classic Trek?
In fact, McCoy’s role in Spock Prime’s existence — via his resurrection — is arguably far more important to Trek than even the friendship between Kirk and Spock. Why no clamor to include a CGI McCoy?
I think that there is something to be said for the idea of completeness — and I will concede that. The surviving actors involved in portraying the triumvirate should in some sense get together. But against that should be balanced the issue of newness. Shatner, by his very omnipresence in media, is no longer really Kirk, but, at best, Shatner(Kirk). There will be comments about Priceline, about Boston Legal, about his actual physique. It will all tend to detract from the newness of this current Trek, which is basically what the producers appear to have wanted to count.
It’s a fine balance, but on the whole, the scene, though powerful, would have made it that much more difficult for new audiences who don’t necessarily know Shatner’s Kirk in his prime to accept this Trek as something new and exciting.
Shatner(Kirk) may be many things, but nowadays, for better or worse, he would simply be a figure of fun.
The idea of Shatner as Tiberius still holds water for me. Trek now lives. One way or another, some form of Kirk still lives, and it’s wonderful. It’s just that Shatner(Kirk) need not portray him.
Well, I know everyone here that LOVES TOS that much would like to see Nimoy and Shatner together again on a scene. Man, they have the sparkle! (I’ve just seen the 2001 Mind Meld interview. Melted my mind!)
I also think the scene as we read it sounds really feasible. I can see it working if Shatner had agreed on doing it if they had asked him to do it. (With all the de-ageing and stuff, but really, the new Kirk has blue eyes and McCoy has not and it doesn’t matter… Like a blond 007.)
But I also think that the purpose of this scene would be convincing Spock that Kirk was “worthy” of captaincy and of his trust. Here’s the thing: I don’t think the movie ended with Spock trusting Kirk would be a great friend of his just because Spock Prime said so and I liked that! And I think it’s fine because we’ll get to see it being built on the next ones. Just like on TOS when Kirk is always… well, Kirk, and Spock keeps getting more and more human with time around him. I would like to see that again.
Anyway, it was a nice idea for a scene, it didn’t make into the movie, ok. Move on.
And I still think that there’s no need for Shatner to be on the next one, unless they come up with a REALLY GOOD story that puts him there. Which I believe is not quite easy and very very dangerous to try.
Isn’t it funny – the scene that never was, a mere voice over by a man a lot of people said they didn’t wanna have included in the film, gets such an emotional reaction, and a dead horse “spread across the geekosphere like a wave”. Very funny, really – It brings a little tear to my eyes too; a little tear of laughter…;-)
133.
To try and answer your question:
Its been said by many in Trek that Shatner can be difficult to deal with.
He counts lines etc. He is considered to be a male diva.
In his own way Shatner may have tried to influence Pine on how to play Kirk. That would have strangled Pine a bit to let him do his own Kirk.
I don’t think he would have settled for a cameo in front of a green screen.
Shatners absence at the premiere I think may show his real feelings for not being included.
Shatner accepted an award for Star Trek at some awards show. He wasn’t even involved!
JJ being the guy he is let him accept it.
Shatners involvement in the last Trek would probably have resulted in a different and not as well done movie as we saw.
If they can bring him in for the next movie that organically makes sense I would love to see him again.
I would like to see him significantly lighter though.
Seeing a bloated Captain Kirk always seems to be a disconnect for me when I see that.
I can’t keep myself from rereading the scene over and ove again – in fact I just read it to my wife! it is so damn perfect for the movie they made and the message of friendship that spock prime was sending to his younger self and to younger Kirk. I wouldn’t have wanted to have to have made the decision, all the things to consider just with Shatner, but as story goes, it seems like a no brainer! Good job on that scene – it honestly feels like it was written by someone who had been writing Kirk and Spock forever! You can tell they understood the character relationship between Kirk and Spock, and honestly thats always been my favorite thing about Star Trek
Mr. Shatner has a big non Trek following and will bring bigger numbers to the next movie just to see him. His Boston Legal show is among the most popular on T.V. now, and his interview show is amazing. He’s won multible Emmy awards and is incredibly popular among Trek and non Trek fans. Pay him whatever he wants and get him in the next movie as Kirk Prime. The scene written for him in the first movie would have been great, and from what I understand he was never made an offer to do it. Give him a bigger role in the next movie. Have him give the younger Kirk a hand against Khan, or something fun like that.
Mirror Kirk is a fun idea but I wonder if the lawyers could sort out how many people get credit for it.
#138 – and yet Abrams’ target audience – new fans, the casually aware and those who never saw Star Trek before – did not miss the scene at all, or care that it is even being discussed now. Critics overwhelmingly praised the movie, few if any declared it lacked anything, much less a more satisfying ending. The film did amazing box office for Star Trek and the DVD sales are topping the charts. Clearly, the movie is perfect the way it is. Only sentimental fans could arrogantly advocate changing what JJ Abrams has said is the film he intended to make.
That said: Paramount would be foolish not to produce the scene in some form and release it as part of a Special Edition (because it will never be a “director’s cut”) to milk yet millions more dollars out of the eager fans who will willingly pony up yet more cash to weep collectively in front of their Blu-ray fed HD screens, at one last performance of THE James T. Kirk.
139: “In his own way Shatner may have tried to influence Pine on how to play Kirk. That would have strangled Pine a bit to let him do his own Kirk.
I don’t think he would have settled for a cameo in front of a green screen.”
Even if Shatner influencing Pine was a concern, that’s something you leave to the film makers to deal with, i.e., for a scene like this there’s no need for the two ever to meet.
As for the “cameo” thing. Once again, Shatner has already done cameos, so I think that’s something that’s not really getting through to people. He was already youthified for the commercial, and Shatner made what I thought was a silly appearance in the Star Wars fan film Fanboys.
And Shatner has become quite self effacing with age. He takes himself a great deal less seriously now than he did when he was younger.
Looks like Abrams really dropped the ball with this one. Even the precious “non-fans” that he tried so desperately to appeal to would have preferred it.
143: “and yet Abrams’ target audience – new fans, the casually aware and those who never saw Star Trek before – did not miss the scene at all,”
“I’m not even a Trekkie and I can see the wasted opportunity in this.”
— Screencrave
I would love to see that poll of non fans who read this scene and who say they don’t miss it that you must be referencing.
We do have ONE poll about this scene, however, which I am sure consists of some “new fans” and it has spoken largely in favor of this scene.
What do you think of the Shatner ST09 Scene?
* Should have been in film (64%)
* Good, but better without it (29%)
* Don’t like it (7%)
Where’s the data to back up what you say?
Okay, I’m going to chime in here… only to play devil’s advocate…. people keep throwing around the words “organic” and “contrived” –all movies are contrived and hardly organic as they are designed to tell a certain story and reach a desired conclusion.
That being said… really as much as I enjoyed JJ’s trek, the whole thing is contrived. Truthfully, Spock Primes only function was to say “Don’t take this path, take this one.” or in the words of Obi-Wan “You cannot escape your destiny.” –Everything else is contrived, forced, and coincidental.
First… Since when does starfleet waste an escape pod to maroon an officer on a planet instead of throwing him in the brig or confining him to his quarters under guard?
Second, he just happens to land on the right hemospere of the planet and get chased by a wild animal into a cave where Spock Prime coincidentally is also marooned.
Since when can you see vulcan from Delta Vega? – And why would nero maroon him there to watch his planet destroyed instead of giving him a front row seat from the viewscreen of the Narada as was done to Leia in “A new Hope?”
It is also Coincidental that Scotty would also happen to be assigned to Delta Vega as punishment by Starfleet.
My point being: how can anyone say that Shatner’s involvement would be forced, contrived and unorganic when the very movie itself already is if you just brreak down the elements of the story.
As a fan I can overlook them, and enjoyed Nimoy in the movie… but to quote Bones, to say they couldn’t have told this story without him is “poppycock.”
Everything we learned about Nero from Spock we could have learned from Nero himself when he was interrogating Pike.
I would love to see this scene made real for a DVD release, with at least some of the deleted scenes put back in. I showed the DVD to some people, fans and non-fans last night, and they all agreed some of the deleted scenes would have been nice to see in context, and one and all groaned at the missed Shatner opportunity and the fans even got a little teary just with my brief explanation of it.
Oy, oy, oy.
I’m firmly in the “Good, but better without it” camp.
It was a well-written scene. But a gimmick, pure and simple.
The geniuses behind this movie were wise to leave it out.
gimmick |ˈgimik|
noun
a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.
NO way this was gimmicky. While there is no doubt that Shatner’s presence here would indeed have attracted more attention and publicity — which is actually another reason to do it for a franchise you are trying to reboot like gangbusters — this scene did MUCH more than MERELY “attract attention, publicity, or business.”
And the emotional reaction of so many people to it demonstrates this. Insincere gimmickry, mere tricks inspired by ka-ching ching — when WRITTEN and not viewed, no less — do not have such power.
I think it would have been cool, but it’s really not that big a deal. The movie is still pretty good without it.
I hope we’re finished with cameos by previous Trek actors. Move on. Let the new cast and crew stand on their own. I for one thought much of Spock Prime’s participation in the movie felt hugely forced. The ridiculous “get him off my ship” meeting on Delta Vega, and the whole insanity of tasking an elderly Ambassador decades out of active starship and science service to single-handedly save Romulus, getting top billing in the “say what?” marquee. If you ask me, the movie would have been better without Spock Prime, nevermind Hologram Kirk. We didn’t get Sean Connery in the “Casino Royale” reboot, and we didn’t get Adam West in “Batman Begins”. Why do we demand Nimoy and Shatner in the “Star Trek” reboot?
Of course, that’s just my opinion. If others love it, that’s fine with me too. I like all Trek as long as it is good, and this was good. I just think it could have been better.
JJ Abrams has said he made the movie he intended to make and he would not change a thing. It was wildly successful, both critically and at the box office The “Supreme Court” debated this scene and its merits and collectively decided against including it the film. With such a definitive statement from the producer, director and writers, to question anything about the film is to open everything about the film up to question. Who dares question such perfection? Are the fans on this forum individually, or collectively smarter, more talented, or in a better position to question the filmmakers?
Perfection? JJ Abrams needs to stay as far away from a director’s chair as possible! He knows absolutely nothing about directing feature films.
While he’s at it, he can fire Orci and Kurtzman too. They obviously don’t know anything more about Star Trek than Abrams does!
#153 Thats just a daft post. Fans can, will, do and always shall have their say on whatever subject. Sport, movies, anything that people have a passion for will invite debate and disagreement. The makers of the movie seem comfortable with that- hence their dialogue with fans on sites such as this.
Let’s get Shatner to record the voice over. After that us fans can do the rest!
#111: And don’t ever change; your optimism is both inspirational and suitably Trekkish :)
#153: By that kind of logic, McDonald’s is the unquestionable authority on how a hamburger is made, SPAM may be the finest cut of meat available to mankind, the Backstreet Boys are musical geniuses and Los Angeles and Mexico City are models of urban perfection.
Success doesn’t elevate something beyond question; quite the opposite. If the film had been a flop, there’d be no point to questioning it. Shoddy, artless, cut-and-paste dreck (in some form or another) earns millions or billions of dollars every day — it’s practically what dollars are printed for, in this culture.
It was a good movie of its type (saw it twice, myself), but if you’re implying that the fact that it made money and pleased critics means we have to sit quietly and smile at the thought of being spooned more of the same CRTL-V filmmaking … Well, just hang out and see if you’re right :)
Mask Shatner”s age difference with classic J.J. crappy lens flares. Hate the new Trek. Period.
Put it in baby!,
It would be a thoughtful for a lot fans as well as Mr Shatner!
Me too !!
The de-aged Patrick Stewart looked horrific. It looked bad in x-men 3 too.
Nice scene, but it still doesn’t bring Kirk back in ANY way as it’s pre Generations! He still does in that stupidly scripted and – frankly – badly acted scene.
Bring Kirk and Spock-prime back in a one-off TV movie to send them on their way with style and class (and leave the new crew to get on with their story, please!). The Kirk in the Nexus didn’t act at all like the Captain we knew and loved. Kirk – happy to just chill out and beat eggs and ride horses and NOT try and find a way out of the Nexus???!? Not the Kirk we all know and love, and possibly NOT the one that ‘died’…..
Hence… the chance is there to do something about it. Bring Kirk back properly. Then have a HAPPY and feel-good send off with Kirk AND Spock; ending where they began together – on the TV. Perhaps bring back the Guardian of Forever too to create a real FUN sense of closure and nostalgic appeal to this TV episode.
Just think – we have the very real chance (now Trek is hot property again – and I know loads of people who were not into Trek but LOVED the film and are now very interested in these characters…) to bring back Kirk and Spock. How many chances will there be to do this with the original actors who are fast approaching 80???!?
It really is now or never folks. Looking back and wistfully saying, “wouldn’t it have been cool to see those two together one more time….” is too depressing a thought.
Lets do something to help bring these two back for a one-off again. Erase Kirk’s stupid death in the process (or perhaps – as I hinted above – that wasn’t THE Kirk in the Nexus anyway… perhaps something Spock is quietly aware of but needed evidence to prove……!). And also in the process of the story get Spock back to HIS Universe/time along with Kirk.
Now or never folks……
162: Good idea! :-) This could be done in a television special, perhaps.
This raises the question of what happened to the REAL Kirk, if he wasn’t the one who died.
@Iowagirl, 138: Even if I agree with you, pointing and giggling at people is probably the least effective way of convincing someone ever devised. Let’s try to keep things civil and not resort to mockery.
@ dmduncan, 146:
One person who is blogging on the internet claiming not to be a “trekkie”, does not a sample make. And obviously a poll of the fans on this site would show a majority want the scene in the movie, since fans are by nature prone nostalgia. I’m not sure how exactly you’d put up a poll of “non-fans”, since there’s nowhere you can go where you can be sure there’s no trek fans around (Although a Twilight message board would be your surest bet.). And even if you could, I’m not sure of the utility of polling an idea rather than a finished product. I think I recall a poll a year or two ago when the project was announced where a majority said they didn’t want a new Trek movie. (Compare that to the record setting box office after the film came out when people saw the finished product.) I’m also guessing that a poll of non-fans conducted before the film was made would have shown a majority choosing Matt Damon over Chris Pine playing Kirk (since no one knew who Chris Pine was), yet now that we have a finished product we can hardly imagine anyone else equaling Pine’s performance. I bet a majority probably would have liked to see the Klingons since more people know who the Klingons are than Romulans. A majority of the movie going public would probably think Batman vs. Star Trek movie sounded pretty cool if you polled that too, since both franchises are popular. That doesn’t say whether it’s a good idea or not. Hell, a majority of Americans wanted America to stay out of World War II before Pearl Harbor. Polls are a snapshot of current (often biased and ill-informed) opinion, and reflect who is the most well known or well liked at a given moment, not a predictor of future success. How many people like the idea of Shatner in a movie sheds no light on whether it would work or not in the finished film. Granted, I have no evidence to prove that people would ultimately hate the Shatner scene as written, since you can’t prove a negative. But my inner critic remains unconvinced that this scene was necessary.
Though the scene is well written, and would have been a much better conclusion to the movie, I think it would have been even better if the message had been recorded by Bones. The technology is available to have a CGI DeForest Kelley in the role: I believe such technology has been used to have Laurence Olivier appear post mortem and to aid in Oliver Reed’s role in Gladiator when he passed away during production (Please correct me if I’m mistaken: if I know one thing about you guys that post on here, it’s that you’re all learned).
Imagine McCoy-Prime giving Kirk and Spock (though the message would have been recorded for the ‘Prime’ characters) a royal kick up the arse. It would’ve cemented the triumvirate too: Bones as the glue that holds it together.
We only saw a glimpse of McCoy as Jim’s best pal in the film, and only a snippet of him standing up to Spock. We need to see more of Bones banging their heads together: kind of like a big brother (not in the Orwellian sense) character.
About the only positive for having Shatner’s scene would be out of reverence for Bill’s long Trek career. Otherwise, it does nothing for me. I don’t want to see Kirk the ghost. I want to see Bill and Leonard as LIVING Kirk and Spock. Anything else is pointless.
It wouldn’t be the same Kirk, but I suppose they could bring back Shatner as a future version of Pine in the JJ-verse time line.
Personally, *I don’t want to see Kirk in any new trek at all.* We’ve already said goodbye to his version of the character multiple times and it’s time to move on with the Pine, Quinto, Urban, and the rest of the new faces.
Hah, I meant to say “Shatner’s Kirk”
166, another way they could honor Shatner’s long career is to do a special interview with him for inclusion in the inevitable “Special Edition” Blu-ray that will come out in the future. They could even ask him to record part of the dialogue, for posterity (as well as possible inclusion in a yet-further “Special Edition.”) ( By the way, what would they call the second “Special Edition”? “Revised Special Edition”? “Special Edition 2.0?” “Special Re-Release”? The “Shatner Edition”? I must remember to look at how Star Wars does it.)
Mr. Shatner is getting up there in years, so I suggest that do the interview before he finally starts acting his age and retires.
Of course, there is the money issue.
Either way, every time they re-release this picture, here’s hoping they’ll continue to rake it in.
169:
Hat Rick:
“Mr. Shatner is getting up there in years, so I suggest that do the interview before he finally starts acting his age and retires.”
I think Mr. Shatner is having the time of his life. At 78, should he be ‘acting his age’ and just fade away? This debate aside, I admire how both he and Nimoy continue to both work and live well. Hell, Shatner now collects Emmy awards and has a wax likeness of himself in Mme. Tussaud’s. He is a highly anticipated guest on the “Tonight Show” and he’s still energetically hawking Priceline.
I would be happy to watch him interviewed once he watches JJ’s Trek. Hell, he should get Chris Pine onto his ‘Raw Nerve’ show. How cool would that be?
Every time I watch the the final scenes of this movie, I’ll be wishing O&K’s Shatner scene was there.
Are there ever writer’s cuts for movies. You see Director’s cuts all the time.
TIME FOR THE WRITER’S CUT!!!!!
170, I say “act his age” with only the greatest of admiration for Mr. Shatner, and obviously tongue in cheek.
@155: Thank you.
Patrick Stewart was also digitally de-aged (along with Ian McKellen) in the opening sequence of “X-Men: The Last Stand,” in 2006, three years prior to “Wolverine.”
Just sayin’. :)
164: “One person who is blogging on the internet claiming not to be a ‘trekki”, does not a sample make.”
That may be true, but it’s better than making an assertion which has 0 statements to back it up.
“And obviously a poll of the fans on this site would show a majority want the scene in the movie, since fans are by nature prone nostalgia. I’m not sure how exactly you’d put up a poll of ‘non-fans’”
…which makes the assertion that “new fans, the casually aware and those who never saw Star Trek before – did not miss the scene at all” weirdly inappropriate.
That’s the point I was making, since no one specifically knows what non fans actually think of this scene. I am sure, however, that Star Trek DOES have new fans because of this movie, and some even drop by every now and then to express themselves. Some may even have voted. But, having no idea what the breakdown is, it is without merit to say that non fans didn’t miss this scene when there is no data to inform the conclusion of what the opinion of non-fans on this scene actually is. That’s ludicrous.
All we do have is the vote that took place amongst fans, and it speaks loud and clear.
Honestly, no, I don’t think non fans would be prejudiced AGAINST Shatner’s appearance. That seems to be a peculiar phenomenon of fans, as far as we know, some of who may actually dislike the character of Kirk because they don’t like the actor playing him.
@24: Well put AJ.
Yeah, don’t put Shatner in it, unless he’s actually going to be a part of the story. I don’t want a gimmick, I want him involved in the story somehow. I think people are just having a knee-jerk “positive reaction” to the unfilmed scene, without really thinking about it. If Prime Kirk and Prime Spock (or, Prime Kirk, and Young Kirk, Spock & Bones) didn’t have some kind of actual face-to-face encounter, then it just wouldn’t have the emotional impact for me. It should be something grand.
165. LJ
Yes, they used CGi to manipulate old footage of Olivier for a holographic projection in the movie Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. I vaguely recall reading about the use of CGI for Oliver reed in Gladiator; I think it was in Entertainment Weekly.
#155 – yes that’s right.
But it doesn’t mean the fans are right, or that their opinions mean anything to anyone but themselves. Many fans hated engineering. Abrams said he was satisfied with what they did and had no plans to change it in the next film. Someone else suggested the original TOS color scheme of the bridge was part of the visual look of Star Trek, yet I doubt Abrams will redesign the bridge, or the look of the sets for the next film. And why should he? Everything he did worked and sold more tickets and is making more money than any Trek before it. In fact I recall the fans’ reaction to most everything reported about this movie leading up to its release, demanding “this” and threatening to boycott “that” – though I do not recall a single fan’s suggestion being taken into consideration or incorporated into the film, and yet inexplicably the film is the most successful Star Trek film ever.
And why would Abrams listen to the fans? He isn’t making a fan movie, he’s making a MOVIE which he hopes will make Trek more accessible to a wider audience. The more they incorporate specific desires of the fans, the more they head down the slippery slope that gave us the fan-driven TNG which ultimately imploded upon itself.
Anyone who liked this film should not question the decisions “The Supreme Court” made in this film and should fully trust that the next film will be as sensitive to the fans needs as this one and tell at least as good a story if not better. The arrogance of second guessing “The Supreme Court” in the face of what has been an unparalleled phenomenon, is just staggering to me. The very same people who were praising everything about this film and didn’t have a single problem with anything in it a week ago, now see a well debated and discarded sentimental script idea and have suddenly decided the film was lacking and could have been better. For the majority of the fans, that may well be true. For the success of the film and the franchise I would seriously question the fan’s ability to second guess the professionals, especially when faced with the results of their decisions.
The real question is why would they pay to fix a film that isn’t broken? Or shoehorn a scene into the sequel that was written for another purpose? There is absolutely no reason to bring Nimoy back at this point – his job is done. Even if Nimoy is not present and the hologram is done as some kind of off-screen gift, the scene still does not really fit in the context of a new film which should be focused on the development of these new relationships, not commentary of their inexperience from the dead counterparts of another universe. And frankly, I would rather they spend all of their money (which is extremely tight in this economy) on new product rather than fix a movie that clearly doesn’t need anything else and about which the director is on record as being perfectly content.
As I said before, the only reason to do this is for Paramount to milk more money out of the fans for yet more special editions of the same film. And although I don’t know the details of Abram’s contract, I would suspect he will have to give his approval to do it, since most high profile director/producers have final approval over future alterations. So given his stated position on his film, I wouldn’t hold my breath for such an edition to happen anytime soon.
Well, the Supreme Court botched ‘Transformer 2′. I loved Star Trek, but just because it made “more money than any other Star Trek”, that doesn’t mean anything. Transformers 2 made a buttload of money, but it sucked big, fat rhinoceros d#@$!
Is that a special edition I smell??
I can see it happening. The Trek movies released on BD recently were the theatrical versions, not the director’s cuts or special editions. That means they will be re-released as such just in time for next Christmas, which is perfect timing for a Star Trek XI Special Edition with an alternate ending added. Get ready, Shatman! They will be calling you soon…if they haven’t already!
178. Trekenstein – November 28, 2009
But it doesn’t mean the fans are right, or that their opinions mean anything to anyone but themselves….. In fact I recall the fans’ reaction to most everything reported about this movie leading up to its release, demanding “this” and threatening to boycott “that” – though I do not recall a single fan’s suggestion being taken into consideration or incorporated into the film, and yet inexplicably the film is the most successful Star Trek film ever.
————————————————————————————————–
Well, then riddle me this Mr. “I’m the smartest Trek fan in the world”.. Why does Bob Orci read our forum posts on this web site, and even respond to them on occasion?? Not to mention, the Blu-Ray special features show both him and JJ talking to fans on here.
[...] The World Reacts To Unfilmed Shatner Star Trek 2009 Scene + Could … [...]
[...] The World Reacts To Unfilmed Shatner Star Trek 2009 Scene + Could … [...]
Shat rules!!
Pine is playing Kirk now, but Shatner IS Kirk!
Should have been in the film. or at least gone to camera. The we’d be abel to see a deleted scene on dvdv at least
167 – I’ve never thought of that. Shatner as THIS Kirk’s future self. Perhaps, if the Shatnerista’s get their way, the whole next movie could be a deathbed captain’s log entry — or a mystery future old kirk has to solve based on his past. Really, though, I personally think the second flick needs to stand on its own.
I always thought Generations could have used a short scene, before Kirk boards the B, of Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, sharing a glass of Scotch aboard Scotty’s boat on a stomy night, with Kirk refusing to go on the B as it’s just a political PR move/ dog and pony show in a Federation plagued by brewing Klingon tensions (despite Khitomer) and a Starfleet still scarred by the conspiracy… and perhaps lamenting some rift between him and Ambassador Spock, and doubting what he’d done it all for, doubting the future of starfleet and doubting what he’s ended up with. With Bones acting as his conscience, he ultimately decides to do it (Before the storm suddenly clears ['cause they can do that in the 23rd century] and a shuttle with Chekov,appears, coming to pick them up (the launch has been moved up) leaving an ensign to watch the ship, handing the doctor a communicator (the boat has no communications) on which his nurse informs him that a starfleet patient at the doctor’s country practice has a child hatching ahead of schedule, with complications (so Bones gives her a couple of comically angry Boneish orders (but of course he’s never happier than when he’s needed) and beams out with a, “It looks like I’m missing the enterprise b’s maiden voyage, I guess I’ll have to wait for the c”)… leaving Kirk and crew to board the b. It would have needed some work but would have set up some themes addressed by Picard and Kirk later on)…
(4)
I love the nick meyer films…. but I always found some of the dialogue predictable and cliched. It was basically slam in a quote from Shakespere/Sir Arthur Conan Doyle every few scenes in an attempt to sound very intellectual. Sometimes it felt that they could not think of somthing profound that the bad guy should say so lets bang in a quote. Sometimes the final battle speech by Chang makes me cringe with how blatent it is, its just a cut and paste …..
dont get me wrong the meyer films are my favorites – i have watched them many a time – but I dont find them overly intelligent films in terms of diologue – somthing that relies on other intelligent material is not always that intelligent itself
The fact that this film is STILL rattling some people’s cages is one of the more humorous things to happen in 2009…
I’m content with the knowledge that Star Trek 09 and all the people who made the film have pleased everyone who liked it, saw it multiple times, and bought the dvd (myself, included), and made it one of the biggest films of the year.
The rest of ya’s… as we say on earth, c’est la vie.
171: “Are there ever writer’s cuts for movies. You see Director’s cuts all the time.”
“TIME FOR THE WRITER’S CUT!!!!!”
Ha! If it’s true that Bob was pro this scene then I’ll bet, if nothing else, he feels vindicated by the fan response.
the idea of shatner singing “happy birthday” places me in cringeville. jeez, orcster, surely you know better… did you ENJOY data and picard singing in “nonerection”, or whatever that film was called…?
the rest of the scene… maybe, if shatner played it as kirk, which he hasn’t really done since gas cost just over two bucks. pine was many things, but not the shlockenfest old bill has offered over the last two decades. good actor, but way past his kirk, i think.
#176
“If Prime Kirk and Prime Spock (or, Prime Kirk, and Young Kirk, Spock & Bones) didn’t have some kind of actual face-to-face encounter, then it just wouldn’t have the emotional impact for me.”
As I recall, Kirk and Khan never had an actual face-to-face encounter in ST II, but it did not make the confrontation any less memorable.
#147
Excellent post!
I’ll throw in another one:
How could Kirk and Uhura go through years of Starfleet training without him learning her first name? Did class rosters and duty assignments only use last names? Did Nero’s meddling destroy Google?
I enjoyed the movie, but was disappointed by numerous plot holes. Not just in logic, but science. Why didn’t the film’s science adviser speak out?
Nice unfilmed scene, but unnecessary! Forget Kirk prime, he’s dead, and a revival would only negate all the great Shatner/Reeves-Stevens novels that resurrected the character in an interesting & original way, so we do in fact still have our Original/Prime Kirk to visit and share new adventures with! Let the new crew stand alone & shine and allow the new movie series to expand in an original way organic to the changes experienced by these characters, let them be who they are (the core of their characters will not change drastically unless they are presented with drastic life-altering events which will then let them grow in new ways unseen before which is great & more interesting than simply re-treads of past tales!) rather than what we wish them to be. It is the unknown that is interesting and makes the journey worthwhile!
I just lost my Mom @ 55 yrs. of age, she was my best friend having conceived me @ 16. There is nothing more I would rather than to have her back, but she is gone forever, only her memories remain. i have loved Trek since I was about 4 yrs. old, being a fan since 35 years and having supported Trek in all its incarnations over the years, viewing it all as canon and one big timeline! I was nervous when I heard that J.J. was doing Trek, and nervous that the writers would mess it up, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt and it was amazing. I saw it 7 times in the theatre, more than any other Trek film! I still love the Original series and always will, but new Trek is fresh & exciting, and needs to develop in a new and unforeseen ways to keep it that way, because it is a reboot of our beloved Original not a retread, and shouldn’t be disrespected and undervalued by becoming just that, a tired old retread! We need to Boldly go forward in new directions, not travel in circles going nowhere! I personally found it difficult to watch the new trek after my Mom’s passing this November before the Nov. DVD release because a story that I watched my entire life now has uncanny parallels for me, my childhood heroes are now archtypes for my personal Life: Like Kirk, I too lost my father following my birth and grew up fatherless, and now Spock and I have lost our Moms in the same year (2009)!! Ironic! I don’t know how my life will unfold as a result of this major, life-altering event nor does new-Spock… he may evolve completely differently than his Prime counterpart as a result… which is completely fine & acceptable, because he is not the same character as Nimoy’s: he is 1) alternate/divergent timeline version, and 2) even if basically the same as Prime Spock at his core, he has been fundamentally changed forever due to this significant loss. So please take these beloved characters in bold, new, interesting and unexpected directions and allow us to evolve with and through them! Thanks IDIC, the possibilities are Endless. don’t waste the opportunity for something Terrific! Don’t box yourselves in, let the imagination Soar to new heights!
They had me until they brought up Patrick Stewart in Wolverine. The de-aging CGI was SO DISTURBING that I had to avert my eyes from the screen while he was on it. He looked terrifying.
What’s the deal with posts #182 and 183?
There’s three versions of Watchmen on DVD and Blu-Ray, whay can’t there be another version of Star Trek where JJ can add the Shatner scene back in?
I know nobody cares what I think, but my father was very pissed off with this film, how all the old stories were wiped out by this one. He said why couldn’t they just start over instead of trying tying this up with the old series by bring in Spock Prime, only to wipe out the old timeline. Well I told him maybe they put Prime Pock in the movie to get older fans to see this new film. But when us old guys see saw this new movie we see the old timeline get erased we get pissed. I’d be, and my father would be less upset if you just rebooted from scratch, instead of tying the old with the new only to wipe out the old, suckage!
Robert # 196
You can tell your father he has nothing to be “pissed” about. The film takes place in an alternate timeline (which was explainded in the film) and does not alter the prime universe in anyway.
If I can help soothe over any other family issues I’d be glad to help.
197# He’s seen the film twice and so have I, one in the theater and one time at home. No where does the film say they are in an alternate timeline!!!
BTW just beacase Bob Oci says it’s in an alternate timeline, and the film doesn’t say it is in alternate timeline, the film has to say it. Since the film doesn’t, Orci can’t say it does, if the film fails to show it and say it.
It DOES acknowledge the alternate timeline. Spock assumes it has happened when he is on the bridge. It is the scene where Dr. McCoy says “Damnit Spock, I’m a doctor, not a physicist!” Spock actually mentions the possibility of being in an alternate timeline. It is canon.
Uhura mentions an alternate reality, and Spock say’s, “Exactly!” Wow were was there a mention of anlternate timeline, where? An alternate reality doesn’t mean an alternate timeline.
201. Don’t (at least within the movie’s universe[s]) alternate reality and alternate timeline both mean that all the stuff that had happened before still happened, nothing has been erased and that this is an entirely new reality/ timeline. To me, the phrase alternate reality, rather than alternate timeline, actually sounds, for some reason, like less damage was done — it’s an entirely different universe than the one on all my VHS tapes. Period. And it can’t be changed, time travel would just create new realities without “fixing” old ones… so, arguably, what would be the point? But does that mean the prime verse kept going after Nero/Spock changed things – they just disappeared forever but all else kept going as it had been and historty showed a Capt. Kirk with hazel eyes and a hairpiece? This is why I quit time traveling.
202. Jack – November 29, 2009
Yes.
I see. The “alternate reality” model, thus, may be fundamentally different from the “alternate timeline” model in that it cannot be repaired. This is critical distinction that few have made, at least that I have seen.
The idea that there is a “proper timeline” thus does not apply. Picard cannot go back in time, a la “Yesterday’s Enterprise,” to “repair” the timeline because there IS no “proper” timeline to repair.
The “time repair” model has been prevalent in Trek, however. One can see that in Star Trek: Enterprise, with the entire Temporal Cold War / Daniels arcs.
I do recall that others have noted that there are several varieties of time travel depicted in Trek, and that not all of them can be reconciled.
Not all of them can be true, in other words.
A very interesting consequence of the “alternate reality” model is that Star Trek: First Contact cannot be deemed to have “repaired” the timeline, but only created a new one that was identical, or at least quite close, to the one from which Picard and crew departed.
I might note that the “time repair” model, however, does somehow converge upon the “alternate reality” model, as described in 204, in TNG’s “Parallels,” in which there is a large quantity of realities depicted. Query, however, whether in actuality, if the “alternate reality” model is true, the “proper” timeline was ever restored in “Parallels”; quite arguably, it was not, and it did not need to be, since it was never actually damaged.
The logical outcome of these considerations is that there may be an infinite number of timelines, including, therefore, ones in which the Borg never invaded Federation space, or in which Nero never invaded the Classic/TAS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT timeline.
Whether these timelines are “parallel” or not, by the way, begs the question. They simply co-exist.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallels_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)
This subject gives me a headache. Let’s not forget the guardian on the edge of forever. Did it only work for one timeline? If it had been an alternate time then the Enterprise and the Federation should have still been there after McCoy jumped through to the 1930’s.
@198: An alternate timeline is implied, Robert. When Nero came out of the black hole into the “past,” one which he had not existed in before, the universes split, and the rest of the movie that we saw, and everything we saw happen in it, was part of the alternate reality Uhura spoke of.
Since he was also going back in time, and the universes split from the moment he entered the past, and we got two universes from that moment forward, we also have a parallel and alternate timeline as well, since it would be impossible to conceive of having two alternate realities without also having alternate timelines going in their separate directions into the future.
While those two alternate realities may be contemporaneous with each other, i.e., present at the same time and — technically — in the same space, they are alternate presents because they are not identical to one another, i.e., in one Pine Kirk will have a different present AND future than the Shatner Kirk will have in the Prime universe which Spock left. Thus, we have alternate timelines AND alternate realities that exist contemporaneously with each other.
This may confuse some people, but try not to think of time and reality as different things.
I think that the various “timeline repair” stories may be seen as the attempt of characters to RETURN to their timeline, in which case there IS a “proper” timeline, but only for the purpose of the characters.
In this sense, “Parallels” works — Worf needs to go back to his timeline. There is no repair of any timeline, and none is intended. He need only go back to HIS timeline.
Since there may be an infinite number strictly identical timelines, this may not be as difficult as we believe. Nevertheless, there are also a number of timelines identical to the “proper” timeline, with the sole exception, for example, that the word “blue” is spelled “blu,” as in “Blu-ray.”
The entire matter is unresolved in our present understanding of physics, and the “Many Worlds” interpretation of quantum mechanics remains possible. This is what allows the “alternate reality” model and, for that matter, the “alternate timeline,” model to persist as possibilities.
The focus of interest appears to be what happens at the subatomic level; the newest supercollider machines may cast light on the workings of quarks and other subatomic particles. There is no definitive answer as of yet, and it is possible that probability does give rise to these multiple realities. Some believe, however, that there is only one reality and that time travel is in fact impossible; that our universe would require, perhaps, more than the entire inventory of energy in the universe in order to depart from it.
However, as of yet, there remain possibilities… including an infinite number of possibilities in which the Star Trek universe is, in fact, real — even if, we, in this universe, may never be able to perceive it.
159
I’m with you. Very strongly.
207, I don’t think, however, that it is necessary to think of “alternate reality” qua “reality” as different from “alternate timeline” qua timeline. That is, the terms “reality” and ‘timeline” are basically interchangeable considered in and of themselves, notwithstanding the differences in usage when paired with “alternate,” in the manner I already mentioned.
I think you yourself said this as well when you stated that “time” and “reality” were the same.
There is a difference between a dead horse and a piñata, people.
211: “I think you yourself said this as well when you stated that ‘time’ and ‘reality’ were the same.”
Yes. People tend to think they are separate.
I suppose, 212. But the pinata may be a quantum one.
Also, in MWI/QM it is thought possible for universes that have split to fuse together again. But it would be a very rare occurrence, and all the differences between the universes must first be lost before unification can happen. They would not be able to fuse while any differences between them remained, in other words.
So don’t get your hopes up for that to happen in the sequel.
#181. “Well, then riddle me this Mr. “I’m the smartest Trek fan in the world”.. Why does Bob Orci read our forum posts on this web site, and even respond to them on occasion??” ––
Oh you’re right. He’s taking notes to base the entire sequel script on the collective ideas of the fans, many of whom have posted entire story outlines on this forum so it makes his job really easy. Since the last movie was based entirely on the fan’s input from this site (and we all know how well that one did), why not let lightning strike twice by doing it again. Everyone realizes that any idea posted on this site is like Wikipedia and becomes public domain, if not the property of Trekmovie.com – so it’s all free for him to use. In fact I hear that’s how Bob Orci writes everything he does. He researches internet forums pertaining to the subject matter of his current film and mines them for the story ideas that the fans want to see, that will become his script. Because nothing makes for a better, fan-pleasing story than a bunch of random fan-generated ideas cobbled together. So pay close attention to the sequel, to see if you can identify which of your fellow forum buddies contributed each line of the film. It probably won’t be very interesting since you will know everything that’s going to happen, having read it first in the Trekmovie forums, but like most fans, it should give you a rush that they made a film around the fan’s ideas, like Rick Berman used to do on a weekly basis. Good old predictable Star Trek! God how I miss it.
Returning again to the issue of re-shooting this scene and re-releasing the movie with it, I was pleasantly surprised to hear JJ say he actually agrees with most of the criticisms fans have made about his film.
That shows JJ is more flexible than some of the fans on these boards who have the intellectual pliability of old concrete, and he’s actually capable of changing his mind about things.
Nor is the issue about this scene one purely of taste. This scene makes several FUNCTIONAL contributions to the movie that the Spock scene we got fails to do, and so, makes an already excellent movie even better.
1. As AICN pointed out at the top of this entry, it gives Spock’s arrival on the bridge more credibility.
2. As I pointed out, it anticipates and preempts the audience objection to Kirk’s bewilderingly fast promotion — since the reasons for that promotion, while included in the film, are too far away in time at the moment of his promotion to chase the doubts away; we could use a little reminder AT the moment of his promotion, and this scene gives us a big one in the vice of William Shatner.
3. As I also pointed out, by young Spock seeing the friendship with Kirk that it is possible for him to have, it dispels some of the animosity towards young Kirk that he has and influences his decision to rejoin the Enterprise, thus providing a visible reason for Spock to give their friendship a chance, and that ADDS credibility.
4. By having Kirk deliver the message that makes Spock rejoin the crew rather than giving that function to his elder self, it loses the “self serving” finale of Spock telling himself to rejoin the crew.
5. It does not cowardly HIDE from Shatner’s death in Generations — arguably one of the biggest reasons we got the plot that we did — but instead turns it into a strength by allowing our long lost Kirk to pass the torch to this new crew and new universe where the bad writing that killed Kirk Prime has been nullified, though not erased.
6. It gets Shatner a fan pleasing role in the film AND gives him the job of performing all of the important functions listed above, while earning even more publicity (how is publicity bad, again? I can’t remember) for the film.
7. It ends the movie with the same poignancy that began the movie, thus completing an emotional circle — and then WIPES THOSE TEARS AWAY with the bright future of a Kirk slapping McCoy on the shoulder and Spock asking for permission to come aboard before we hit the rousing musical them of Alexander Courage.
And to those who say it’s a dead horse: Hey, we’re just trying to go back and alter the timeline a wee bit. ; )
vice = voice
them = theme
To the reasons above in 217, I could also add reason 8:
The only place in the film where it seems to me a claim of sentimentality might have some legitimacy is the literal ending of the movie — Kirk slaps McCoy, Spock asks for permission to come aboard, Uhura sees Spock and smiles to herself. Everyone’s happy happy!
But the immediate POIGNANCY of the Shatner scene actually counterbalances the sweetness of the final scene, thus actually helping the literal end of the movie be sad and THEN sweet rather than ALL sweet.
The lingering feeling of poignancy of the Shatner scene mixes with and reduces the sugar content of the end that we saw.
Bob Orci – you wrote a fantastic script that revitalized the franchise. Do not listen to those who would tell you that your script is less than perfect. The film is as complete and satisfying as you intended it to be. You wisely worked out the best possible moments to make the most fulfilling, uncompromised, Star Trek film you could. Please don’t listen to sentimental fans who are re-writing your masterpiece to “improve” the movie. These fan’s second guess your creative intuition and professional skill, without any consideration as to your input. Just as you spoke up on Transformers, as an equal member of The Supreme Court you would have voiced your opinion about this had you felt including the Shatner scene served the best interests of the film. Fans will always think they know more than the artists charged with entertaining them. However, I do not want my Star Trek served up to me as some pre-digested story ideas that originated on the internet, serving only nostalgic fantasies of the fans. Please continue to surprise me with unexpected story ideas and push the envelope into the new frontier which you have bravely charted away from the ensconced antiquated notions of the fanbase, often incapable of seeing the wisdom of your vision. Don’t be deceived by those who claim to love the film, then insist on a host of changes which only serve to move the franchise backward, instead of forward. The film AS IS worked for the critics, it worked for the fans, it worked for general audiences, all without demanding a more satisfying ending, or even questioning the one they got. It can not be made “better”, or you would have – you assure us of that with your continued caring attentiveness on this forum. And of course “better” is merely a subjective term. No one can assert that “better” can be objectively defined for everyone everywhere – but of course they will try. But then you know all of this, don’t you?
222. Trekenstein… “Bob Orci – you wrote a fantastic script that revitalized the franchise. Do not listen to those who would tell you that your script is less than perfect. ”
“Believing oneself to be perfect is often a sign of a delusional mind.”
-Data, “First Contact”
“Star Trek (2009)” was a very good movie. But perfect it isn’t. I ask again, why the heck is elderly Ambassador Spock the go-to guy to save Romulus? Why does Spock throw Kirk out the airlock, does this Enterprise have no Brigs? These guys can now beam across interstellar space? If that’s true, why does anyone need a starship?
Trekenstein is a masochistic troll who purposely makes the worst arguments anywhere on these boards because he likes the attention he gets from being dissected.
Don’t all for it guys. He enjoys the pain.
223.
Once upon a time in the script, Sopock said to Kirk, “if I confine you to the brig, you will find a way to escape.” Though we cut the line, the logic still applies. Spock knows kirk is a genius who will not be dettered. Even kicking him off the ship, Kirk manages exactly what Spock feared.
#159, 210
Let me third that. Period. :)
203. boborci: & 202. Jack: No!
225… Bob, I don’t mean to come off as a hard***. I liked the movie, I really did. Saw it four times in theaters and own the 3-disk Blu-Ray. It wouldn’t be Star Trek if it didn’t have technobabble and head-scratching plot loopholes…
228. Thorny – November 29, 2009
No worries!!
#223 – exactly. All melodramatic pleas aside … with respect to including the Shatner scene – I find it extremely interesting that few had a problem with the ending of the film until they read the “missing” Shatner scene which you discussed well before before the film was ever released. Then suddenly, these same people claim the film was always lacking a satisfying ending. Now the movie lacks credibility, poignancy, and completeness. It’s overly sentimental, sugary, unemotional, bewildering and cowardly. Bah! Revisionist history. Turns out the fans have more in common with Gene Roddenberry than merely a love for Star Trek.
All of the criticisms now raised with the current ending as a result of the Shatner scene being revealed, are dispelled if one is willing to work a little harder to understand it. The beauty of your script is that it works on so many levels. There is no moment in the film that is not completely explained by the script if a person wants to go deeper into it’s meaning, just like your response to #223 demonstrates. You and the Supreme Court made a conscious and wise choice not to spoon feed its audience, and once again you are under attack for dumbing it down too much.
I commend you on your thick skin and fantastic work and dedication to the franchise.
The issue about beaming is sort of a moot point. It makes no sense to teleport ANYTHING without having a transporter acting as receiver on the destination side. But the nonsensical version of teleportation we see in Star Trek has been a part of the show since it began. So it’s not exactly fair to complain about transwarp beaming NOW as if it somehow suddenly became a problem. Star Trek’s portrayal of teleporting never made sense. Yet that’s been a part of canon since the show’s inception. You have to suspend disbelief here.
Indeed, if you read John Barnes’ excellent Giraut series of SF books, beginning with A Million Open Doors, you see springer technology as the means whereby people cross interstellar space, making interstellar spaceship travel obsolete, in the end. But first you’d have to GET the springers to the destination locales before others could begin going through them. And JB’s springers DO predate the Stargate stuff.
And of course, you’d still need starships to explore strange new worlds if you NEEDED to have receivers on those strange new worlds to beam there, because they wouldn’t have them otherwise.
Trekenstein, are you RD? Because you sound exactly like that cowardly and sclerotic old clownfart.
RD — come out come out wherever you are. Somebody is stealing your modus operandi!
230: “I find it extremely interesting that few had a problem with the ending of the film until they read the ‘missing’ Shatner scene which you discussed well before before the film was ever released. Then suddenly, these same people claim the film was always lacking a satisfying ending. Now the movie lacks credibility, poignancy, and completeness. It’s overly sentimental, sugary, unemotional, bewildering and cowardly.”
Are you still sore over the skinning I gave you over on the Harlan Ellison thread? Is that why you are using all my words but without referencing me by name directly?
Hahaha!
Well let’s see if I can ’splain it so even a bonehead like that RD fella coulda figgered it out.
In other words, when we discover a better scene from a film that we loved which wasn’t shot and see that it could’ve been even better than it was, we also then see, by contrast to the new scene, what the shot scene lacked, and under such circumstances it is appropriate to change one’s mind about the scene we got. See how that being reasonable thingy works?
So there’s no inconsistency between loving the film that we got and still wanting it to be even better with the discovery of this new and very poignant scene — which Bob ALSO helped write, by the way.
So the choice, really, is between one thing Bob and Co. wrote, and another thing that they wrote, and saying the other thing was better for reasons a, b, c, d, etc. Either way, Bob and Co. wins!
The ability to change one’s mind when relevant new facts become available is something RD had a really hard time doing, and the last time I had to make this argument it was to him.
It’s too bad you have the same problem as that poor sclerotic dolt. But I’ll do what I can to help you, because I cantroll you better than you cantroll me.
: )
I like the ending of the film we got very much.
I like the other ending more.
I still like the film just as much as I always did though!
Ok retards……
first of all if this scene would have been added to film would feel like a gimmick but Shat’s ego wouldn’t been able to compute a 2 minute cameo.
Secondly, most the new audience would only know shat as that crazy priceline guy.
@233: Dom, you summarized the way I also feel very succinctly.
And FYI for RDenstein:
I call BS. So if here, as on the Harlan Ellison thread, you try to twist my words to mean something opposite of what I wrote, I’m going to call you on it.
And targeting me without mentioning me isn’t going to save you from becoming the pig in my luau.
225
He’s a genius who, according to his dossier, is a hand to hand expert, who gets beat up in every fight scene…brutally.
225: “He’s a genius who, according to his dossier, is a hand to hand expert, who gets beat up in every fight scene…brutally.”
In the Hella Bar fight he still managed to hold his own for a while even while outnumbered and intoxicated.
On the drill platform he was doing okay against one Romulan until the second came along, while Sulu was trying to keep from dying.
Against Spock he wasn’t intending to defeat Spock in combat but to weather the storm of Spock’s fury so that Spock could be seen as too compromised to lead the ship. Anyone with a familiarity with hand to hand combat knows that an outstretched arm, such as how Spock was choking Kirk, is vulnerable to an arm bar, and that it is an easy hold to break; that Kirk didn’t try, being the expert he was, shows his real intent.
And when Nero had got hold of him he had already been knocked half unconscious by an unseen blow to the head.
Finally, while Ayel was monologue-ing him, Kirk was strategizing about how to kill Ayel with his own gun.
That said, if there are any Kirk fight scenes in the next film, I would like to see Kirk starting to get the drop on the characters he’s fighting.
225 = 236.
So, here is something I never understood. Why is a TNG film, that is considered by nearly everyone to be a crapfest, (Generations) held to be inviolate? Whenever the idea of Shatner appearing as Kirk came up for the past 2 years, it was soon shot down with a variation on “Kirk died in Generations-no can do”. JJ even used this one. Often.
Yet, handstands are performed (see posts above) trying to reconcile “timelines”, “realities” ad naseum. The net effect is that all the stories we have known up til now only exist in another timeline/reality because of this many world mumbo jumbo.
The simplest solution is to simply put a bullet in the back of the head of Generations. Ignore it. Never happened. TMP was basically ignored by Khan, and that was only two and a half years later. Generations was a generation ago. Who, honestly, would care? Ignoring Generations, or explaining it away with some expository dialogue (it was a Bobby Ewing dream in space) would work.
You want a barn burner sequel? You turn Nimoy Spock loose on the idea that he cannot allow the Nero time intrusion to stand, have Quinto Spock and Pine Kirk help him. They go tear assing around the galaxy looking for the Guardian (so Harlan gets paid!), run into some trouble on the way. After all that trouble, The Guardian tells them no-can-do. Pine Kirk argues with the Guardian, and gets basically convinces the Guardian that IT JUST MIGHT WORK. Get Scotty and Chekhov involved with some engineering tinkering, fix the timeline and you get to see the real Enterprise at the end when all is as it was before. You think people teared up reading the Shatner lines? watch what they do at the end of this one.
Oh, and get Tom Hanks and Russel Crowe involved. Overseas market and all.
239:
Have Kirk not be dead, and have him played by Russell Crowe. “On my signal, release hell.”
Sounds fine to me.
@239: I agree with you that Generations stunk, and I personally ignore it, but Bob does care abut canon and the supreme court does have a responsibility to all fans, not just the ones who ignore Generations, and part of that responsibility is trying to make it all fit together, for both fans of TNG and TOS. Their job is a wee bit harder than ours here is.
And they did come up with an ingenious solution using MWI/QM.
“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.”
I had a thought: Have the second movie take place AFTER all the events that occured during the 1966-69 series, bascially after those three years. So, they encoutered Khan, Harry Mudd, Organias, etc. already, albeit with different details and outcomes since it’s an alternate reality. So, the next movie would not have to revisit any of that, or maybe have to deal with some reprocussion.
I dunno, just a throught. I just hope the next one is as epic again.
242 “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.”
Good point. But, remember Kirk’s response when asked by Spock why he would come back for him: “Because the needs of the one, outweighed the needs of the many.” I submit that TNG fans are like hockey fans; very passionate, but their numbers are insignificant. There is a reason Paramount went back to the original characters. As for the Supreme Court, I yield to no man in my knowledge of, and passion for, Trek. Those guys could learn a thing or two from me and you, I am sure.
240 I figured since people think Master and Commander is the best Star Trek movie ever made, why not make Crowe an honest man, and put him in the franchise!
244: “240 I figured since people think Master and Commander is the best Star Trek movie ever made, why not make Crowe an honest man, and put him in the franchise!”
That’s funny. I’d never heard that before, but when I saw Master and Commander I too thought wow, that’s just like Star Trek.
RE: Master and Commander
I have always considered M&C one of the best Star Trek films. In fact I had assigned that as an article idea to a contributor, but he never delivered the article. I rewatched it over Thanskgiving and tweeted about it
http://twitter.com/TrekMovie/status/6104086901
One of the followers actually replied back that he thought I was talking about a ‘real’ star trek movie. He must be one of those ‘new fans’
If they had done a TOS reboot ala ST09 in the 90s, Russell Crowe would have been a great choice as Kirk,
246 That article writes itself! Can’t believe he never followed through. Had I more time, I might try it myself. I thought the M&C/ST connection was a fairly common observation, but I guess not. We are perceptive around here!
@246: He certainly reminded me of Kirk in Master and Commander.
Kind words, Trekinstein. Much appreciated.
#244 It’s not correct to assume that the TNG fan base is as tiny as you might think. Bob Orci is a huge fan, the dvds sold well as did the movies.
While most people today probably consider The Original Series the best, a lot of people consider TNG to be a worthy successor in it’s own right.
I consider myself a fan of both, considering both to be equals for different reasons. I do also enjoy Deep Space Nine and Enterprise and while I don’t like Voyager as a whole, there were still some good episodes. And in the ’90’s TNG was one of the most popular shows on the air, sometimes even beating the World Series in ratings. One does not have to choose between TNG or TOS.
#246 I haven’t seen Master and Commander in awhile. I enjoyed it a lot and consider it one of the most underrated movies of the decade. Having said that, I must disagree with your assessment of Russell Crowe as James T. Kirk. It’s just my humble opinion.
I enjoyed Generations despite the horribly contrived death of Kirk. If Orci and co. can find a logical way to bring back Prime Kirk to life (which I believe they can) and fit him into the plot of the next movie, then I’m all for it.
As for the alternate reality/timeline debate, they are not mutually exclusive. Often, an altered timeline results in an altered reality, or even an entirely different reality. It would be correct in using either term. Even the Mirror Universe, which is a different reality, is also an alternate timeline in the way this new film is. There was a point in time where the Mirror Universe was the same as the normal universe. At some point, there was a divergence resulting in two different paths. And I would guess that it happened after World War 2 in both universes. In the Mirror Universe, the Nazis and the Japanese Empire may have prevailed, resulting in humanity maintaining it’s barbaric and fascist ideals with earth united as a capital of the Terrran Empire. The divergent point for this movie from the Prime Trek universe came when Nero travelled back in time. From that moment on the timeline was changed.
i liked it
I don’t see a bright line between an altered timeline that results in a different reality and an altered timeline that doesn’t. It seems to me that if one thinks that an altered timeline can exist at all, there is no principled reason to believe that it is NOT also a different, or altered, reality.
In other words, let’s assume that an altered timeline diverges from our own as of tomorrow. At what point does it become an altered REALITY? A day later? A year? Why not a century? Why not a second?
I suppose I’ve never really understood why something that is called an “alternate reality” is different from an “alternate timeline.” I tend to think of both of them as two terms for exactly the same thing, like the words “pop” and “soda” for exactly the same soft drink.
252: You’re right, Rick. Try imagining a time without some kind of reality and you wouldn’t be imagining anything at all. A timeline is the duration of any given reality, so an alternate timeline is also an alternate reality, although you can think of Time itself as the realm in which all these contemporaneous alternate realities/timelines exist.
And speaking of time, my time on this site is up. It’s going to be hard, but I’m going to move on now.
I’ve enjoyed the heck out of posting here, and I hope at least some of my posts have been thought provoking and funny. In some small way, I hope that I’ve helped give back to Star Trek what Star Trek gave to me when, as a white kid growing up in Malcolm X’s old neighborhood in Queens, NYC, reruns of Star Trek gave me a reason to get off the streets that were killing people I knew and tempting me towards the same trouble that so many of my friends at the time fell into like quicksand, and to go home and watch this strangely cool old show that first taught me how to think bigger than I otherwise dared.
Good luck to Bob and Co., thanks for the great work you guys did, and I have high hopes that we’ll get a sequel as amazing and fantastic as the Star Trek we just got.
The franchise is in great hands. Live long and prosper!
I guess I’m a sap, because I loved it and think it would’ve worked. I know some think it would have spoon fed the audience and the filmmaking device used a cliché but I don’t think so. I think it would have made Nimoy’s involvement more significant while at the same time drawing focus to the new cast at the end through the contrast.
I remember them talking about dropping us into a scene and not knowing when and where we are. What if they dropped us into the Laurentian (spelling) system showing us the other starships and why they are there, “with our primary fleet engaged in the Laurentian system, all cadets are to report to hanger 1 immediately.”
Is the primary fleet engaged in war? Discovery? Maybe this will tie in nicely into the next film, for all we know this is when they discover Khan and Khan is successfully integrated into Star Fleet and becomes a friend/foe of Kirk and crew.
#223
Spock Prime volunteered I believe, sides he’s super smart and very compassionate, this guy wanted to save the Klingons and forge peace despite their reputation in the Undiscovered Country. What was more funny was that he volunteered his friend Kirk who he knows hates Klingons to escort the chancellor lol funny guy?
Transwarp beaming is not perfect as you can see Scotty ending up in the water turbines, I am sure Scotty would not dare share this with anyone as he did not want to answer Quinto how they beamed onto the enterprise while in mid warp. It is one of those things that will be used only for emergencies and that will benefit Scotty and crew.
#253
Where you going dmduncan why you leaving us?
I liked the scene. But the film more than holds it own without it. I’m a Trekkie and have been one for a long time. I love everything Star Trek, but it’s time to let the past go. The new guys have setup a great new universe for us to explore without damaging the History we all so love.
It’s time to Boldy Go A New and I can’t wait.
220. Have to say I loved the bright ending — that’s how I remember the bulk of my favourite episodes ending… the crew all laughing (with the laugh sometimes a bit too forced), often at some joke on Spock. I just saw a rerun of Where No Man Has Gone Before, and it ended with Kirk’s chipper, smiling “there may be some hope for you yet Mr. Spock” after Spock expresses sadness for Mitchell/Dehner. Kind of an air of gallows humor to it all, which is pretty true-to-life.
ps. Patrick Stewart in Wolverine looks eerily like Mark Hamill in the Star Wars Christmas Special.
It was nicely written, but having Shatner, with his bizzare speech patterns, do the ending would have undermined the new Kirk and crew.
This film was about the future of Trek, not the past. A new beginning.
Anyone else think the idea that Old Spock carries around a necklace with a hologram of Kirk is a bit more gay then best friend? (and after they came up with Spockhura to discourage that sort of thing!)
I loved the movie. I saw it 11 times in theaters, once in IMAX and twice on my birthday. I got the DVD. But the first time I saw it, I hoped until the last frame that they somehow, quietly, got Shatner in. Yes, I was disappointed. I loved the movie, obviously, but that was a hole in it, for me.
I have been a vocal proponent of this film, awed by the care and thought and love for ST that went into it. But that scene with Shatner is still something I would love to see on a future edition of the movie for fans.
#191.
I hear you. Nokia survives but NOT Google?
Put Shatner and Nimoy into the sequel as Prime Kirk and Prime Spock! Resurrect Prime Kirk and make it a major part of the plot! And it could be done if the plot centers around it.
Imagine Old Kirk and Old Spock reunited… this would be perfect!
I would love a Shatner cameo (even just his voice), but NO de-aging, PLEASE. The actors look dipped in paraffin, and it creeps me out.
(Who’s to say Kirk doesn’t live to a ripe old age in this particular alter-verse?)
#222.
You seem fundamentally confused about what a film script is. AFAIK Orci and Kurtzman’s STAR TREK script has never been published in its entirety so it is impossible for you “know” how “perfect” it was.
It is extremely rare that every word (dialogue and scene directions) written in the shooting script even makes it into the the finished product, and NOT every word or everything that appears on screen is from the script as improvisation does occur, i.e. “thrusters on full” and according to some “All I’ve got left are my bones.” Also, there was a writers’ strike that crimped their ability to polish things during filming so it’s not even clear that the script used was exactly in the form the writers desired, e.g. they wanted to add an Uhura’s grandmother scene for Nichols but couldn’t. And even if it was, the director decides which pieces of it actually make it on screen. Cuts were made. At best, your script data could only be incomplete and how “perfect” could it have been if scenes where filmed from the script and yet cut as the home video extras show?
My problem is everybody is just assuming Shatner would NOT have been happy with the scene. The reality is nobody bothered to ask him. They wrote this beautiful scene that pretty much would have made the movie better and they wimp out because they are afraid to offend Shatner. If they showed the scene to Bill and he passed on it than it is Shatner’s fault and we as fans have nobody to blame for the scene not being there but him. However, in this case JJ and his “Supreme Court” ruled or made the decision for Shatner. Bill has flat out denied even being approached to be a part of the film numerous times. I’m inclined to believe Shatner in this instance. Shatner has spent this later part of his career humbling himself and and doing parts for the fun of of it. I highly doubt he would have passed on what could have been his last chance to play Kirk again. Especially because this would have redeemed him for the epic fail of Generations.
#267: “The reality is nobody bothered to ask him.”
Can you confirm this?
#268 Shatner himself has insisted he was never asked to be a part of JJ Abrams new movie. I think people saying Shatner would have only agreed if the part was equal to or larger than Nimoy is being unfair to Bill. Shatner’s scene carries with it a lot of depth and emotional weight. Nimoy’s role was important to the overall plot of the movie, but Shatner’s scene was important to the overall fabric of friendship between Kirk and Spock. In my opinion the scene written for Shatner was worth about as much as Nimoy being in the film.
#269
JJ wanted to ensure the film stood on its own merits and did not want to put Shatner in there for the sake of him being there, it was his vote to omit that scene. They should have filmed it and see how it worked in the final cut and if he had second thoughts he could have left it for the fans to enjoy in the dvd/blu ray release. Hind sight is always better.
JJ took into account that Shatner does not do cameos(fear insulting Shatner if approached him with this 1min part) and it would seem too forced and not part of the story line. Shatner got his glory in Generations and now Nimoy got his in Star Trek 2009, all is fair in the end.
Also the spoon fed theory applies here, the final scene, JJ wanted us to enjoy Chris Pine and Quinto in all their glory, being sent off by Nimoy himself.
I am sure if Boborci gave you guys insight into everything they could have done and example writings, you guys would all wet your pants and faces.
#269: “Shatner himself has insisted he was never asked to be a part of JJ Abrams new movie.”
Yes, I’m aware of what Shatner has said.
Again, the part is great. There is nothing small about it in terms of the overall impact it would have had. I believe Shatner would have did it if it had been offered to him. I would like to see the scene happen for a special edition DVD.
the scene with spock prime showing young spock a necklace would have be overly gay. Who would case something around with them all the time maybe Sulu Prime would …
Mr priceline guy would have not added an ounce toward the movie….
New crew only from now on !!!!!!1
“Overly gay”?
To quote some guy we know: Get a life!
I should start by saying that I didn’t read any of the other comments. There are way too many, and I don’t have the time.
Anyway, I think that though the de-aging in the commercial was impressive, it was entirely convincing. Something was different. Most likely if the technique was used in the movie it would have been better anyway, so that isn’t a big issue.
As for the hologram, non-photorealistic holograms don’t seem right to me for Star Trek, especially for the late 24th century. Of course, that might not stop Abrams from trying it anyway. It’s more plausible for a small hologram projector than it would be for a fixed projector or a full holodeck.
Additionally, though I like Shatner and his performances as Kirk, I don’t think that he was really necessary for this movie. It worked well without him.
Shouldn’t include any more TOS actors in future Trek movies, the new crew needs to stand on their own. And DO NOT have Khan show up in the next movie. TWOK is just one of those classics that can not be replicated, retold, or augmented in any way, despite having a new timeline. This is a new Trek and we need new adventures. Such as, the Klingons might try to start a war with the Romulans over the loss of 47 ships, despite Nero being from the future. The remaining Vulcans also may take action for their planet being destroyed. Definitely would like to see races like the Gorn and Andorians show up as well, maybe even Shran if Andorians live that long.
“It would have glorious… ” to quote a certain Klingon captain. The Shatner scene would have added as much to the film as Nimoys part did.
No more war stories, give us a Indiana Jones type story in space, adventure and exploration! Go back to the war thing in the 3rd movie.
#15AJ Yes Shat is a pitchman and he always has been a practical joker, but I have seen him on stage and let me tell you, the man can shine. Go over the soliloquies Shat does in any TOS episodes and watch him “sell” it. And #108 Hat Rick, the same thing applies to Mr. Plummer, the scenes in movies that Christopher has been in, he sparkles and is quite able to hold his own in his characterizations against any other actor in the same scene.. Any actor that can do that is an A-lister. You can’t compare him to Alec Guiness. Both extremely capable craftsmen, with completely different personal approaches to their acting, despite the same classical training, but both “In The Moment” actors. I understand what you meant by Christopher being an analog to Alec as contemporaries of each other, and (respectfully so) are what they are: Actors in the truest sense and meaning of the word.
Here’s an idea: in 2011 or 2012 (whenever the sequel is scheduled to be released), release a special edition of the film with the new scene in theaters, followed weeks later (or even back to back) by the sequel! Then Paramount can make that extra money, and release a new special edition on DVD boxed with the sequel, etc. to make even more money! All by just adding one scene that sounds like it would be relatively inexpensive to produce. If they have to beef it up further for the execs, just add some deleted scenes or extra footage to appease the powers that be.
By the way, THANK YOU trekmovie.com for posting that wonderful bit of script. Regardless of whether anything happens with it, it’s beautifully written.
Also, a big thanks for posting a follow-up article. I’m so glad to see it’s getting a huge response. I’ve often imagined the scene since I read it, and I’m not even a huge Trekkie. This would have been incredible… and I hope we get to see it at some point!
One more thing, and I’ll shutup… I think this scene would be a lot less forced than trying to put him in the sequel.
#280-I like the way you think. It could be filmed right away, if Bill would agree. Heck, if Nimoy can sit him down to watch the film and then “sell him on the idea”, it would really enrich this already great film and give us something to look forward to while waiting impatiently for the sequel (maybe release it 2-4 weeks/months before the sequel).
273. freddy-f: ‘the scene with spock prime showing young spock a necklace would have be overly gay.’
Given they’re essentially the same person, that brings a whole new aspect to the expression ‘Go f*** yourself!’ ;)
Speaking of box office I suppose it should be noted that the one-two punch of 2012 and THE TWILIGHT SAGA: NEW MOON have knocked STAR TREK to 10th place in the list of 2009’s top grossers.
There’s a fair chance it’ll be knocked out of the year’s top ten by month end as well.
279, good points, but what I meant by “A-lister” was shallower — someone who can attract big box office simply by star power alone.
Just watched the ending of the movie again… I kind of wished they had stuck with the TOS “these are the voyages” speech — rather than the updated/pc movie/TNG version — with ‘new life’ rather than ‘new life forms’ and, alas, even the ‘where no man has gone before’ part. It never seemed sexist to me, but, then again, I’m a guy. And “ongoing mission” just always seemed wordy, just cut the ‘5-year,’ if absolutely necessary, and stick with ‘mission:’
I don’t know if it was the delivery or the edits, but the later versions always sounded lifeless (although Nimoy’s in TWOK was poignant as Spock was likely dead) to me.
I still like the idea of an out-there, far-from-home, five-year mission.
287. Agreed, the watered-down speech was the one truly bum note that the movie struck for me.
Just put him in.
I don’t care if it’s a hologram… a visit to the Mirror Universe… an aging sequence…
JUST DO IT!
please!
202. Here’s a humdinger: there is no such thing as a timeline being created: if you add a 5th dimension, from that perspective all timelines have always existed and time traveling is merely relocating to a different position on a different axis.