New Video: ILM Breaks Down Star Trek Spacejump Sequence January 25, 2010
by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Star Trek (2009 film) , trackback
One of the biggest action highlights of the 2009 Star Trek movie was the ’space jump’ sequence. This sequence actually took up a third of the effects work for ILM. A new video feature at ILM breaks down the space jump.
Space Jump breakdown by ILM
Video comes from Post Magazine
The effects work of ILM has put the Star Trek movie on the shortlist for a Visual Effects Oscar. All the competing films had their ‘bake-off’ last Thursday, where effects clips from each were shown the visual effects professionals who then voted for the final Oscar nominations. Star Trek has already picked up two nominations for visual effects by the VES guild.
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I hope they win. Good luck!
Buen Suerta
I loved this scene, so happy JJ got this sequence in, epic scene.
JJ: I got a great idea
Roger: Wow. This is going to be just amazing.
No, just fun. Amazing would be if the sequence made any sense.
Having the Enterprise shoot phasers and photons torpedoes at the drill would be smart, but we need the characters to be dumb. Giving every jumper a pair of detonators would be smart, but we need to have Kirk come up with a brilliant strategy that only someone like him would figure out. Pick up a gun and shoot at an evil thing. Pure Kirk material.
But the fun part comes when we see what happens to the man who came up with this brilliant plan. He failed to save Vulcan, let himself be taken hostage which lead the enemy to acquire the codes to Earth’s defenses. I think someone was drinking too much gin when they read Pike’s field report.
You know what would have saved the day? Nintendo Wii Straps. If the phasers had Wii Straps, they would never have fallen beyond Kirk’s reach. THAT would have been awesome.
That was a great scene and it looked so real you sometimes forget it is not real. When you can do that then you deserve any and all awards.
4. Jeyl – January 25, 2010
A thousand years ago, in the Dark Ages before Wii, sidearms boasted a very useful accessory feature, the “lanyard”.
In fact, they still do.
Sincerely,
C.S. Lewis
Shootist
The big question for lurker Mr. Bob Orci is: If the space jump wasn’t originally in the script, what was there instead?
@6: A thousand years ago, in the Dark Ages before Wii, sidearms boasted a very useful accessory feature, the “lanyard”.
That’s so Dark Ages. Wii straps are the future. Nintendo even made them extra thick just incase you fling the phaser too fast.
@6
Lanyards! Too simple! Outstanding. Great point.
Best quote of the film: “Olson was a douche.” — My 15 year old son.
^When the best line about the film is coming from a teenager who wasn’t even in it, it speaks volumes.
Giving the skydivers jet packs for maneuvering would have given the sequence SOME kind of SF flavor, but shoot, you wouldn’t want that kind of thing to interfere with a modern Trek movie. Got to keep our thinking down to earth, like JJ’s BarnDock.
to#4
Its called suspension of disbelief.
Yes I nitpicked about the phaser being knocked out of Kirks hand.
But for me one of the best “wow” scenes visually.
I especially liked the beam up sequence with Chekov locking on to Kirk and Sulu at the last second.
Still gives me chills.
The best part was the sound, it went silent until they broke through the atmosphere. In IMAX it was incredible, you see these 3 guys going down in space towards the planet and it looked very real.
beam us up, beam us up, beam us up.
YA MAYO.
Jeyl, the sequence makes more sense than you’re giving it credit for.
Having the Enterprise simply use weapons would have been catastrophic for the crew. The Narada would have immediately tried to thwart any attempt at destroying the drilling rig. I think Pike did things that way to try to save the Enterprise and Vulcan.
The space jump scene makes more sense than what you’re suggesting.
#2: Aren’t you the guy that made “Troops”? Man, that thing was hilarious.
Do I have to say it? Pike ordered the orbital sky dive to be stealthy in the effort. The Narada would have blown the Enterprise out of orbit if they had fired on the drill. At the time, they didn’t know that the drill was preparing for the total destruction of Vulcan. I agree that jetpacks would have been more interesting and make more sense and that more than one person should have had the charges. But ya know what? Trek has been full of instances where the logical approach was overlooked in favor of something more dramatic. I don’t like it either really but don’t make this seem like the first time.
ST09 takes AHELLOFALOT of suspension of disbelief to be enjoyable (for some) IMHO.
…more than I could muster… …and I REALLY wanted to…
#4
Not wise to fire on the drill when the enemy has you like a sitting duck and has requested captain Pike to come over via shuttle craft. If the Enterprise fired on the drill, the Narada would have blown the Enterprise into smithereens with or without pike on the Enterprise and with or without young Spock seeing his planet Vulcan being destroyed.
The plan Pike proposed was their only option, unless you can beam Nero and his crew into space and then blow up the Narada, but then we wouldn’t have a movie.
Just try to remember it is a sci fi movie, this is not a documentary about how NASA fixes the Hubble Telescope.
If I was Nero, I would have blown up the Enterprise after young Spock saw the destruction of his planet or beam him onto the surface of Delta Vega and have him join Spock Prime in sorrow. This way there is no chance of failure, this has always been the Achilles heel of villains, they tell you their evil plan and always leave the door open to be defeated :)
Actually, jet packs would have been the same as opening the chutes too early… it would have been detected.
As for Kirk losing his phaser… o, come on. That’s Action Film 101. Yes, it’s stupid. It’s also in hundreds of other movies.
A film or scene does not have to obey objective logic. It does have to obey internal logic. If the characters tell the audience vampires can’t stand sunlight, then daylight should kill vampires. If they say vampires get all sparkly and emo and junk, then that’s the rule in that film. In ST09, the rules were laid down and obeyed. Do I objectively believe that it makes sense to implode super novae to time travel? Nope. But, it’s set forth that way in the film. Likewise, the rules in the space jump were laid out very clearly.
In short… IT’S ONLY A MOVIE!
As I said. The sequence is fun, it’s not outstanding, amazing or great. It’s just ok. The main factor in why I was underwhelmed by the sequence was that it didn’t do anything. The drill did it’s job, Vulcan is destroyed, no one essential was killed (I didn’t hear anyone complaining about a lack of a chief engineer), and everyone is back to where they originally left off.
Action scenes that have a purpose to the story and directly affect the characters carry more weight to them. This sequence didn’t serve any purpose other than to give characters things to do. Not useful things, just stuff to keep things the same. Maybe if Kirk felt a bit bad afterwards knowing that he failed to stop the drill in time, then the sequence would have had a point.
Heck, I think it would have presented a great opportunity to bring up Kirk’s “no-win” belief into question, because he failed in his first assignment and couldn’t do anything to stop it. So not only would that have given the action sequence a point, it would have also given the Kobayashi Maru dilemma an actual arc that fits. And what would that have given us? A far more likely scenario for Kirk to flip out. His beliefs have proven wrong, he failed to prove himself in a situation that could have saved billions, and now he’s lost credibility in trying to convince Spock to go after Nero. I think that works a little better than the “you’re not doing things my way, so I’m going to berate you in front of the whole crew, disobey you direct orders and try to assault you and anyone who gets in my way” approach.
#22 Jeyl-
interesting ideas you have there sir. Thought provoking.
But unfortunately such philosophizing and introspection would not go over to the common moviegoer. Sometimes I wish they would try to make a Star Trek that is true to its roots, as an intelligent, thoughtful enterprise that will only appeal to a limited subset of people.
if Avatar didn’t exist STXI would have a chance.
However…..
#22–Kirk flipped out because NERO KILLED HIS DAD AND ROBBED HIM OF THE CHANCE OF HAVING EVER KNOWN HIM…and thus subjected him to a life of abuse from his stepdad (a taste of which is included in the Kirk Brothers deleted scene on the BluRay)…because Nero destroyed Vulcan, planned to destroy Earth next and to Kirk’s perception Spock didnt care.
When I click on the video, I get a message saying my IP address was banned…. why? :P
I also think that even tho it was never shown or addressed that the narada must have had advanced borg based shielding on their ship or at least around the mining drills-but if so then howcum the boys were able to space jump on it–well maybe the shielding was only covering the top if they didnt expect anyone to try to stop em? Then again ehen the drill was on earth howcum nobodyy on earth was trying to stop em? Some kinda shielding i would guess-
Could somebody please mirror the QuickTime video somewhere? Stupid postmagazine is not accepting my IP address.
Yes, let Nintendo save the day! Wonder if Nintendo still exists in the 23rd century? Probably and they’re probably selling some holodeck video games…you did know they secretly developed the holodeck right?
Really though it would have been too easy for the writers to do that…
22. Jeyl – January 25, 2010
23. GarySeven – January 25, 2010
Really good points – shame that nowadays it seems it needs a very brave film maker to consider that the common moviegoer could possibly have that depth of thought, AND still generate large box office.
Are those days gone??
27: Nobody was trying to stop them because every available ship in the area had gone to Vulcan and been destroyed ;)
30 . Chris Pike
I would argue that the success of Dark Knight says that a film CAN be intelligent AND a blockbuster.
22, 23, 30:
The thing i dislike about your points is that you miss the point – go back, re-watch the ORIGINAL Star Trek and you’ll notice that whilst it did break new ground and touched on social and ethical issues of the 60’s – it was essentially wagon train in space – full of cheesy action and great spectacle for that time on TV – where i think you’ve interpreted Star Trek is during the TNG years with it’s philosophical debates and the notion that to find a solution we have to look within ourselves – the 80’s ladies and gentlemen.
We are now in the tweenies – an age where consumerism has gone a little mad, people would rather act on gut instinct than philosophise. We live in a world where we want everything today because tomorrow is too long to wait – Star Trek 2009 does exactly what Star Trek 1966 did – reflect the society we live in today with the hope and the optimism that in the future we’ll work out our differences. The science might have been ropey in Trek09, and spectacle might have been added for the sake of appealing to the masses but in all honesty Trek’s core values were a constant in this movie. the spectacle weill it’s what Star Trek has always been about and strived to bring it’s audiences – it’s just this time it’s had the money to do it properly and more to the point fantastically well.
32,
The Dark Knight was hardly intelligent, long, fun, intriguing, very well acted and directed but about as intelligent as any other summer blockbuster – including Star Trek.
Why even use the drill, just drop the red matter on or in orbit of the planet. It would have the same effect.
Link doesn’t work.
I think the point to make here is that it would be possible to address the odd plot problem here and there, make a set/digital extension for engineering, tweek the E a bit and make her less ugly/freaky looking without having any negative effect on the box office (maybe even improve on it even more??) ….??
#22
“Action scenes that have a purpose to the story and directly affect the characters carry more weight to them. This sequence didn’t serve any purpose other than to give characters things to do. Not useful things, just stuff to keep things the same. Maybe if Kirk felt a bit bad afterwards knowing that he failed to stop the drill in time, then the sequence would have had a point.”
The scene is to develop Kirk from rebel punk to acts of hero (attempting to stop the drill and saving Sulu in the process and to start earning trust and respect from the crew). The metaphor of him hanging off the drill again symbolizing his edgy style, coupling that with the scene when he was a boy/corvette and later by disposing of the henchman and again when the Enterprise gets nearly sucked into the black hole. All these scenes are to build the character Kirk and develop him as a hero that makes it out, just barely.
@20 – yeah, villains love to monologue you to death instead of just pulling the trigger.
@22 – Actually, the scene did several things – it got Pike captured (setting up his rescue by Kirk later), it destroyed Vulcan (setting up the confrontation betweek Spock and Kirk in which Kirk takes command) and it allows the villain a victory while giving our heroes a chance to regroup and defeat him later. After all, if the villain never wins, what’s the point? That makes him just stupid. Besides, so what if it’s contrived? The entirety of drama is self-contained and created by outside forces, so as long as there’s some thin thread of logic holding everything together, it can work. The writers are Zeus creating their self-contained world, so they get to determine how things work in that world.
#33: “Star Trek 2009 does exactly what Star Trek 1966 did – reflect the society we live in today with the hope and the optimism that in the future we’ll work out our differences.”
No. I would hardly call a future where kids get to drive cars off of cliffs, men sexually harassing women, alien kids who call women they don’t know whores, aliens who openly express that other races are inferior, people getting into brutal bar fights, making racial insults to persons of different race, berating your superior officer in front of the entire crew, assaulting fellow officers and not having to take responsibility for it is hardly an optimistic view of the future. In today’s society, people are held accountable for their actions. These Trek characters are not.
#33: “the spectacle weill it’s what Star Trek has always been about and strived to bring it’s audiences. it’s just this time it’s had the money to do it properly and more to the point fantastically well.”
Funny, I don’t recall Star Trek II being a spectacle because it had the money to do it with. If anything, it had so little money that a lot of the effects, sets and designs had to be lifted directly from the previous movie to save money on a budget that was barely mediocre. It cost 2 million dollars less than the budget for the first Star Wars movie, and that was five years prior.
Just look at how much action there is in Star Trek II compared to Trek09. I can think of two major action sequences, but that’s it. Khan’s surprise attack and the battle in the Mutara Nebula. That’s it. The movie just tells a story about the characters and it does it with a cadence that isn’t rushed, convenient or overblown. And the nice part about Trek II is that none of our main characters developed through petty bickering or constant arguing with one another.
You don’t need a big budget to tell a good story. I for one would like to see how the next movie would fair if we cut the production budget in half. Art from Adversity can be a trying, but rewarding method of creating something. I don’t think there will be any adversity in JJ’s team because it looks like the only people on the team are those who will never disagree with JJ. And why would they? It’s easy to get people to agree with you when you got a budget of 150 million dollars. A budget that I still do not see on the screen.
The spacejump sequence is a very cool sequence
Great visuals and a great soundmix.
@30 – Your absolutely right – not only does it defeat Kirk (he not believing in the “no win” scenario) it sets up the fight between Kirk and Spock.
Spock losing his world & his mother experiences feelings of fear, anger and loss. As a result he prefers the safer course of meeting up with the fleet.
Kirk after failing to save Vulcan it more determined than before to go after Nero, rescue Pike and make it right his way.
As well I thought it was a great sequence in that we have seen that sequence so many times in the Next Gen movies – Soran’s Platform, the So’Na’s Collector Array, and Sinzon’s Thaleron device – and they always succeed. I went into the movie with no “Spoilers” and when Vulcan was destroyed I thought that anything was now possible. The scene is successful in that it does not give the audience exactly what they expect from a summer action film.
As well it gave us a dead red shirt. The first proper one in almost 40 years.
42 should be “@ 38″ – I don’t have my glasses on.
#39: “Actually, the scene did several things – it got Pike captured, it destroyed Vulcan and it allows the villain a victory while giving our heroes a chance to regroup and defeat him later.”
I’m not talking about the whole setup, I’m talking about the Spacejump sequence itself. All of your points would have happened anyways. The whole entire sequence doesn’t do anything. Nothing changes. It’s just more minutes of the characters doing things that don’t amount to anything for the story or it’s characters.
The only thing that could have come out of this sequence is the notion that Kirk failed to save Vulcan. He lost. For something like that to happen to Kirk who doesn’t believe in the no-win scenario ought to be a pretty big deal. Not only would it show that Kirk’s belief wrong, but the person who tried to teach him about experiencing the no-win scenario is the one who suffered the most out of it. But does Kirk feel any remorse over this? No. He still acts like a disrespectful a**hole towards Spock.
#40
“You don’t need a big budget to tell a good story.”
You are correct, however you need a budget to make a good film to make money. ROI is huge in any business. Imagine if Avatar went to some flimsly basement 3D company to make visual effects for the movie, do you think it would be the all time world wide box office earner? You have to invest in a project if you want it to succeed, that was the biggest problem with Insurrection. Good stories are fine and dandy but where’s the cheddar.
#44
Depends on how you view no win, they saved Vulcan’s history/heritage and the audience got a chance to see some heroism from young Kirk no?
This scene is just setting the story arc and payoff up.
Vulcan had to be destroyed to show the audience there is no reset button and this Nero guy is pretty bad ass and dangerous. He is so dangerous that not even Kirk could have stopped him on his first attempt, like the KM sim, he had to go back, think and revisit his options.
Something I think is being overlooked is that a good chunk of Starfleet’s nicest (and some presumably newest) ships were destroyed @ Vulcan in that Nero exchange. Wonder if the sequel will deal with a diminished Federation….
Just sayin’….
#47
I believe their primary fleet was engaged in the Laurentian system and the fleet that got destroyed was team b with new cadets minus the newly built USS Enterprise.
@35: Ya I was kinda in the same boat.. Why drill? Destruction will still be the same, if not a little more dramatic since it’ll happen near the surface.
I can’t imagine having “Wii Straps” on the phasers. What if it’s in the middle of firing and it’s knocked out of his hand and he ends up slicing his leg off?
From what I remember, cops today don’t have lanyards on their pistols.
Anthony, the link to the video is broken.
@45: “You are correct, however you need a budget to make a good film to make money.”
Ok…..
The Sixth Sense: 40 million
Gross: 672 million.
District 9’s Budget: 30 million
Gross: 203 million.
Mama Mia: 52 million
Gross: 609 million
I can go on if you’d like, but I’m just going to say that your reasoning is not absolute. At least District 9 gave us some incredibly photo-realistic aliens that could actually carry the story as leading characters. Trek09’s idea of wowing us with aliens are just humans with fake CGI big eyes and a tiny walking piece of lettuce. Ya, that’s 150 million dollars well spent compared to District 9’s 30.
A bigger budget does not mean a better film, I think some past Trek movies succeeded better on smaller budgets.
The Wrath of Khan has a small budget and it is one of the best films ever made. However although later movies still had tight budgets $45 million dollars for First contact is still a big budget.
Yet with a smaller budget herman Zimmerman did design an engine room that was consitant with the rest of the ship and looked like it was on a starship.
As long as the story and characters are good, these are the important factors.
The cool thing is I read online somewhere that the space jump sequence is really possible.
#51 and #52
Point taken, I am sure we can find examples that fall into both winners and failures on ROI by studios. More money necessarily isn’t always better but it sure helps. When I watch the film, I just don’t want it looking like I could have saw it on TV for free.
I think money and innovation goes hand in hand, movies like T2 (liquid metal), Matrix (bullet time), Avatar (motion capture animation that was photo realistic), had some pretty ground breaking special effects. Star Trek TMP and Star Wars (ILM) had awesome miniature ships that looked pretty real back in the day and it still does. I hate to make Insurrection the whipping boy but that movie was a clear case of being cheap.
Where was the awe/wonder and wow in Insurrection? It felt like I was watching a glorified episode in the theatre, I felt angry at Rick Berman for approving the sets/designs and how the film turned out. This was the film that followed First Contact. 58million dollar budget for Insurrection seemed large sums of money, but let me ask you, can you honestly say Insurrection was one of the all time epic sci fi films? I really think Insurrection killed TNG in the movies and TNG could have gone further in the cinemas. It was just missing the grand, epic, masterpiece touch, sci fi movies deserve.
That is what I want from every Star Trek movie, showcase the latest and greatest special effects and couple that with a good story, not much to ask for :) I am happy they got it right for ST09, it is going in that direction.
That scene admittedly was not one of my favorites; when I first saw it my impression was that it was really just filler and an action scene to draw and appeal to younger viewers – which in part I assume it was, which is great, because it obviously did.
It was ok, but (to me, at least) the kind of big, flashy, largely unimportant to the plot, type of scene typical of a summer blockbuster. But again, at my age (43), I understand I’m not necessarily the target audience here.
It didnt at all take away from my overall enjoyment of the film, though…
To me that particular scene emphasised the point of how much danger they had to go through in an attempt to stop this drill, yes the scene itself wasn’t perfect and was a bit stretched out.
But the fact they ended up ultimately failing, showed that the entire sequence from start to finish (the end product with Vulcan imploding) that any heroic action doesn’t always end up with the positive outcome we really expected. Because it took some balls to destroy Vulcan.
In my opinion it was the scene from start to finish, that the sky diving sequence was part of it.
The scene that ends the film with the enterprise moving away from camera is the best in the film in my opinion. Just beautifully rendered. I may prefer old school effects and models but i must confess that scene was great as was the voice over by old Spock.
35. cbspock – January 26, 2010
Why even use the drill, just drop the red matter on or in orbit of the planet. It would have the same effect.
_______________________________
Who knows the mythical physics behind “red matter”… maybe it needed to be at the center of gravity for it to quickly destroy Vulcan? If in orbit, maybe it would have acted as Cygnus X-1 does on it’s neighbor star, slowly pulling it apart to it’s doom. All conjecture, of course, but by destroying Vulcan quickly, it prevented a mass exodus of the population, thereby multiplying Spock’s suffering… Ol’ Nero was nuts at this point, remember, and nothing would be off the table for him. He started off just wanting revenge on Spock, but at the end was ready to destroy all the planets of the Federation so the Romulan Empire could flourish.
Link Broken…..
Something is wrong with the PostMagazine site link :(
:-(
Adding to the above…
…link is broken…’Can’t connect’ ‘Timeout’ etc.
Link doesn’t work for me either. Tried three times in the last eight hours.
Linky no worky
ST09 requires no more suspension of disbelief than any other Star Trek movie or TV episode that came before it.
In fact, it requires far less than most of the Star Trek products that came before.
You can literally nit pick every single episode from STOS to TNG and all the movies to death if you want.
It amazes me that some Star Trek fans feel that ST09 is so beneath them, like they have some higher sense of quality because they watched the often rediculous show in the 60’s. How anyone that is a Star Trek fan can criticize a Star Trek movie for story plot lines that are rather “convenient” or that take a more dramatic tact when a more logical and easier tact was clearly available, is beyond hypocritical.
If nothing else, Star Trek has been defined by plot lines that go out of their way to make a more dramatic entertainment scene rather than easily solve the problem.
You can create a 20 minute mash-up of Kirk getting his phaser, or some other weapon, conveniently knocked out of his hand so that a hand-to-hand combat scene can go on for a few more minutes and end in a more dramatic fashion.
If those things anoyed you about this film, then you are clearly not a Star Trek fan, of a fan of Sci-fi/action genre in general.
#55 I totally agree with you.
Not only Insurrection, but most of the TNG movies had just plain awful special effects and set designs.
They were absolutely nothing more than dressed up versions of the TV sets.
There was not one moment in Insurrection where I felt like it was worth my money to see in a movie theater. It should have been a 2 hour special on TV at best. The story was rather bland also.
Having a good story is important, but if the visuals leave you laughing at how fake they look, and how cheap they look, then it doesn’t matter how good the story is.
Two computers. Two different locations. Two different access sources. Same result:
No video.
LINK IS NOT WORKING…..
Post Magazine website was having problems (maybe we or other sites were sending too much traffic?). Anyway I took the story down while they sorted themselves out, now they are back up and the links are working again
The idea of a Sapce Jump in a ST film is not new. On the DVD of Generations there is a deleted scene where Scotty and Chekov are waiting on the ground for Kirk to land from his space jump. Shatner even wrote a space jump into one of his novels where Kirk is jumping with Picard for sport on some planet or so I recall.
ha, maybe they should re-do the Kirk falling off a rock face scene in a new cut of STV…
Jeyl….we get it. You didn’t like the movie. No matter what anyone says to try to convince you otherwise.
But I’ll try.
Pike’s idea for the space jump saved the Enterprise and her crew, eventually leading to Nero’s defeat. He agreed to board the Narada to buy time for the team to surreptitiously destroy the drill and stop whatever damage it was doing to Vulcan. (They didn’t know about the red matter element yet.) Had they simply gone in with guns blazing (photons and phaser), Nero would have simply destroyed the ship…as he had easily done to the rest of the armada. And gone on to destroy Earth and the rest of the Federation planets.
So your claim that it was a throwaway sequence where nothing happeded isn’t valid. EVERYTHING that came next was allowed to happen because of Pike’s strategy and space jump.
66,
I guess I’m your target, since I found nothing credible in the Abrams film. But I DO love good SF action pics, and I would put SERENITY at the exact opposite end of the room from this ST 09, because that delivered the goods without making me gnash my teeth over this that and the other. SERENITY was like, in the 80s, MIDNIGHT RUN, or the 60s, THE PROFESSIONALS — just really solid entertainment that engages emotionally and thrills and is rewatchable. ST09 was a total disconnect for me. Then again, I’ve not gotten through MI:3 or any episode of an Abrams series yet, so that may also inform my views on his storytelling.
I think JJ may have been inspired by an article in Popular Science (which is a great place to be inspired for Star Trek)
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/popular-science/985-9.jpg
:)Paul
#75 (Spockboy): Approx. 15 years ago I actually wrote a scene once for a film, which never got produced, where the protagonist committed suicide by space diving back to Earth without protection. Very poetic scene.
Amazing sequence! They’re right about the CG parachutes — well, CG fabric in general, it’s an absolute SOB to get it right! :)
*runs off to watch Trek 09 for the umpteenth time*
The odd thing about the scene to me was why Olson was there. The chief engineer would be rather budy with repairs. Also wouldn’t there be members of security that have more training for such a mission? Of course the second item could go for Sulu and Kirk as well.
Somone in this thread assked why drill the hole for the red matter. It was mentioned somewhere (I forget right now if it was in the film, DVD extras, or novelization) That the red matter needed heat to create the black hole. Soi they had to get the red matter to the core of the planet.
#78 Olsen was there as a continuation of the great Star Trek tradition of a “red shirt” getting killed during a mission:-)
Anyway, the skydiving sequence was great. No complaints from me.
Liked the scene. It was exhilerating and looked dangerous. These guys have a thrilling, dangerous job — not quite the sense you get from any of the TNG movie scenes previously mentioned (or the not-so exhilerating rocket boot turbo lift flight to deck 115 rom Trek V). Can’t Star Trek be smart (debating whether TNG was as smart as some think is for another discussion) AND fun?
And taking this stuff too seriously (how this would work in ‘real life’) ended us up with two really boring seasons of TNG where the captain couldn’t leave the darned ship…
@73: “So your claim that it was a throwaway sequence where nothing happeded isn’t valid. EVERYTHING that came next was allowed to happen because of Pike’s strategy and space jump.”
Ignore the guns blazing thing for a second. If everything played out as it did without the space jump sequence, everything would have ended with the same way. The notion that Kirk and Sulu failed to stop Vulcan’s destruction is never brought up or lamented on afterwards so you could in a way delete the space jump sequence and the structure wouldn’t be affected at all.
You would think that failing to save an entire planet and all it’s population would have had a bigger effect on Kirk. But hey, if you like your heros who lack compassion and are unaffected by acts of genocide they failed to prevent, go right ahead. I got better heros to root for.
@81
They didn’t even know the purpose of the drill…or that Red Matter existed…or that it was even possible for one ship to have the fire power to destroy the planet. All they knew was that it was causing significant tectonic stress and blocking communication/transporters. The mission…disable the drill. They succeeded.
What happened next shocked everyone in the 23rd century! (As a long-time Trekker, I was waiting for the reset button to come later in the movie. The shock to me came later when I realized the destruction of Vulcan was ‘”for real.”)
As I recall, Kirk’s reaction wasn’t dispassionate or cavalier. It was classic Kirk…leap to action with a plan to stop Nero before he reached any more Federation targets. He was so full of passion for what he felt was the best course of action, in the face of Spock’s commitment to a more logical plan, that got him thrown off the ship! Kirk was going to stop at nothing to bring a genocidal madman to justice for his crime.
That’s a hero I can root for.
82,
So to take your view to its (logical?) extreme, in order to make Kirk a hero you could root for (you can have him, too — I’ll stick with the real McCoy, Shatner as developed to fruition by Gene Coon), we have to see Spock act in an absolutely unexcuseable fashion. Putting the guy picked by the Capt to be your exec overboard at the first sign of conflict should have gotten Spock relieved before Kirk got stuck in the tube … but the 400 shipboard bozos in THIS timeline just keep their heads down (presumably because they think Spock will drop them on Hoth too if they speak up.)
That’s plotting and characterization I can hoot at.
Re: #70
Thanks Anthony. It was driving me crazy….
:)
82. “That’s a hero I can root for.”
Yes, we need more heros who cheat, sexually harass women, disobey direct orders, needlessly assault federation officers and racially insult your commanding officer in front of the entire crew. Question, what was Kirk going to do if he had punched out everyone on the bridge that got in his way? You think the crew would follow Kirk after that? Not even McCoy went for it. And even if the crew did follow him, what the heck was he going to do against Nero? Shoot at it? They didn’t have the Transwarp beaming that they needed to beam onto the Narada from the safe distance.
Circuit, Do you honestly think Kirk was in the right when he went nuts on the bridge? You said it yourself.
“Had they simply gone in with guns blazing (photons and phaser), Nero would have simply destroyed the ship…as he had easily done to the rest of the armada.”
That’s pretty much what Kirk wanted to do. Catch up to the Narada and take it down. Since you said that strategy is impossible, I don’t think you should qualify Kirk as a hero in that moment.
Has anybody ever explained how the E catches up with the Rom thing after going off in the wrong direction for so long?
Or why they have blades to chop up the sharp-edged water in ‘engineering’?
Jus’ wonderin’ …
@86 Nero had them stop at Del Taco because he had never heard of them, but saw they had some Star Trek promo that he wanted to check out. This gave the Enterprise time to catch up. :)
86. kmart – January 27, 2010
Has anybody ever explained how the E catches up with the Rom thing after going off in the wrong direction for so long?
Actually, Yes. I’ve had two people ask me that question while watching the film…I mean, there are possible reasons they appear so quickly upon the Narada (warp signature comes to mind, loosely, amongst others), but nothing obvious or explained….(right, everybody?)
@Jeyl and Kmart
Does Kirk “cheat” in both timelines? Yes. Check any number of TOS episodes or movies.
Does Kirk disobey direct orders in both timelines? Yes. Ditto. (He STOLE the Enterprise in one particularly bold moment to save ONE friend. Imagine what he might do to save BILLIONS of people.)
Does Kirk sexually harass women? When did that EVER happen??! He certainly seems to get around in both timelines but I don’t recall him ever using his position of power to limit the opportunities for advancement of the opposite sex if they didn’t succumb to his charms. He may be an incorrigable flirt/ladie’s man….but sexual harrassment?? Uh-uh.
Were Kirk and Spock acting out of character in ST’09? How would any of us know? We never “met” them at that point in their lives before. And the circumstances were so unusual and tragic after the attach on Vulcan…it’s possible for anyone witnessing something so horrific to behave in an unexpected/uncharacteristic fashion. But the basic characteristics of Kirk and Spock seemed to be consistent with what we DID know about them. Kirk…the bold Lothario leaping in without looking in order to beat the no-win scenario at any cost. By-the-book Spock on the surface struggling with his all-too-human instincts that lie underneath. Just like in TOS.
As to what Kirk would have done had he convinced Spock to go after the Narada instead of being tossed down to Hoth…who can say? But I’m confident he’d have found away to stop Nero. He’s James T. Kirk. Certainly a raw, more youthful version of him without the luxury of time to temper his brash impulses. But the guy I saw on the screen? No doubt about it….he’s going to become the Kirk we knew in TOS. And give Spock a few more years and I’d expect him to be VERY similar to character we first met in The Man Trap.
(And had Kirk remained on Hoth or in the brig or whatever…and Spock took the Enterprise to rejoin the rest of the fleet, Earth would have shared Vulcan’s fate…and maybe a lot of other Federation planets too.)
#81
“You would think that failing to save an entire planet and all it’s population would have had a bigger effect on Kirk. But hey, if you like your heroes who lack compassion and are unaffected by acts of genocide they failed to prevent, go right ahead. I got better heroes to root for.”
Without this scene, Kirk would not have bonded with Sulu, the audience could not see how dangerous Nero was and his motivations .The impact it has on Spock and Spock Prime. The progression of a rebel punk Kirk to a captain.
The real heroism here is preventing earth from suffering the same fate of Vulcan and the retrieval of Pike and putting a stop to Nero/escaping from the Black Hole, going home and being commended by Star Fleet.
To defeat a opponent that has already knocked you down to floor and capable of beating you is more exciting than to have won without any challenge/threat of losing.
Acts of Heroism does not necessary mean preventing genocide and walking the halls weeping. Sometimes it’s about doing the best you can and salvaging what is left of the situation, it is better to have tried and failed then doing nothing. Being able to control ones emotions, this is why Kirk was advanced to Captain, Spock was emotionally compromised. Something Spock insists is the very quality required to be a starfleet captain in the KM sim. Kirk facing fear (Nero) in the face of certain death(destruction of Vulcan and potentially Earth and Enterprise), controlling that fear in himself and his crew, he has the quality in being a starfleet captain
A man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child. (Saving Sulu falling off of the drilling platform)
the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
part of the Kirk cheat/disobey thing to keep in mind is context. Kirk in the series disobeyed orders while and after agonizing over the conflict of how to do his job and duty. AbramsKirk seems more inclined to disagree on the basis of the old Brando chestnut (Q: what are you rebelling against? A: What’ve you got?)
Abrams’ plotting reminds me of Lucas when he works without skilled writng help. SW had contrivances … but they didn’t take you out of the movie too much; EMPIRE either. But the four flicks that followed, when he didn’t have Kurtz around to ride herd, or a decent screenwriter (Kasdan’s creative input on JEDI was largely ignored) … the contrivances became an obstacle to watching the movie, because they weigh too damn much to keep your head up and aimed at the screen.
@91
I disagree. Kirk hasn’t rebelling for rebellion’s sake by the time he was a cadet. (Prior to is fateful meeting with Captain Pike? Definitely a Rebel Without a Cause.) His “melt downs” on the bridge were first, a reaction to having a collection of information that no one else did which led to a conclusion that they were warping into a trap/attack and second, he BELIEVED his strategy was going to save BILLIONS of lives…and it turned out he was right.
There was some contrivances in Star Trek. No doubt. CMO is killed in the Narada attack so McCoy can take over. Chief Engineer is killed so Scotty can take over. Kirk is chased into a cave that happens to be the same place where Spock Prime is marooned. But I don’t think the contrivances were character-driven.
And don’t get me started on post-Empire Star Wars movies. Ugh!
@ “Check the Circuit!”
Well said. James T. Kirk (in every incarnation) Is a fallible guy, and realizes it — he’s not Superman or Jesus or spilling over with midichlorians.
Thanks Jack..
I hope part of the sequel deals with Kirk’s immaturity/inexperience as he settles into his new role as Captain.
89. “Does Kirk sexually harass women? When did that EVER happen??!”
Well, groping Uhura’s chest and giving her a smiling smirk isn’t exactly pat on the shoulder. You may say it was an accident, but Kirk sure didn’t react to it as such. A guy who grabs a woman’s chest, relishes in it, and doesn’t apologize for it is no hero of mine. It’s especially sad
89. “Does Kirk disobey direct orders in both timelines? Yes.”
For which Prime Kirk took full responsibility of. When he disobeyed orders, he knew he was doing something wrong, and when the job was done, he accepted the consequences of his actions and welcomed any form of punishment Starfleet was going to give him. NuKirk didn’t suffer any form of discipline for any of his actions. I seriously doubt that any military like organization like Starfleet simply did away with ‘assaulting
89. “I’m confident he’d have found away to stop Nero. He’s James T. Kirk.”
Yes, yes. The best way to portray a hero that can do great things is because….because he just can…. Everything he does is the right thing……because he has that name. He’s James T. Kirk! He can do anything and do no wrong!
I for one tend to look a bit deeper into the characters and what I see in NuKirk is just some arrogant a**hole who’s only development is through rank and not by character. He’s an a**hole in the beginning, and an a**hole at the end.
#89: “And had Kirk remained on Hoth or in the brig or whatever…and Spock took the Enterprise to rejoin the rest of the fleet, Earth would have shared Vulcan’s fate”
Whoa. Earth destroyed? Now that would be exciting. Not only would that be something new, it would also destroy that very cliché I’ve hated in Star Trek, which is making Earth the center of the universe. Think about it. The original series never dealt with their modern day Earth. Ever. The closest thing that we got to what Earth was like in the original series was via illusion in “The Cage”. I would relish and praise the idea of Earth being destroyed and saving Vulcan instead, because saving Earth in the end just leaves Star Trek clinging to it over and over again. If there was no Earth, than there is no reason to go back to it. Cause why bother calling it Star Trek when the priority is always back there, and not out there?
I still can’t figure out why they didn’t burn up upon re-entry.
@ Jeyl
The save the earth thing really has been overdone (and I never really bought explorer/scientist Janeway’s desperation to get everyone back to Earth at any cost). But at the same time, the only movies that worked without it were Trek II, III and VI… (and, arguably, Generations?… although there was a save a planet plot there too). But are such high stakes necessary to get us caring/ create suspense? I hope not, in Avatar the stakes were, well, a big tree — and it worked. “The Ultimate Weapon” plot = also rusty. I think these both worked here because there was enough character stuff going on. Nero was really a plot device, rather than a character… and I find myself fast-forwarding through all his scenes… I would have like to have known a bit about the Romulans and their motivations, rather than “they’re bad. they want revenge.” Oh well.
Some mystery/intrigue would be cool in the next one.
#12
I’d be inclined to give the movie a pass as its Treknology is expected to be in a more primitive version, but I have often pondered from the 1960s on, how they had the tech that would allow their arms (and other equipment) to stick to their clothing while running and jumping, and yet fly out of their hands in physical assaults on their person faster than a Colt .45 in a barroom brawl on Melkotia?
#53. BiggestTOSfanever – “The cool thing is I read online somewhere that the space jump sequence is really possible.”
Eh? How so? Did they claim this is a viable ISS or Space Shuttle emergency exit strategy?
#73
But the minute Pike’s planned little stealth party was greeted by Romulans they had to know the jig was up on the whole surreptitious part of the plan. What I found troubling is once that becomes apparent, none of the trained in military tactics Federation personal act as if they should prepare for the E to be immediately attacked?
Disabling the drill was a significant battle won because they learned the transporters would indeed work even with the Narada between the E and the falling K/S. But did anyone think to use the transporters to preemptively strike or at least disable the Narada’s ability to deliver significant damage to the E in an anticipated response?
I wonder if ILM can ever top this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xtY_k86FBU&feature=fvw
ILM can presumably make Astley move better in digital than he ever could in the real world.
Loved that space jump. I want more. I want to see a scene where hundreds of Federation Rangers have to make a covert, “nightside”, spacejump. I’ve figured out the explanation for no “anti-grav”, or jet pack assisted space jump: STEALTH. There can be NO radar, or detectable energy signature whatsoever; must be stone cold dead to all detectors (i.e. special suits, NO energized devices, power packs stored in “dead boxes”, Must assemble &”power-up” their equipment on landing, etc…).
GREAT sfx work on that space jump!
OH YEAH! Must be “decoy” operations run during the space jump (ya know; lots of high energy shuttles & fighters flying around to throw the detectors off).
101,
Geez, their suited bodies on re-entry would be giving off a pretty obvious heat signature, unless Harry Potter cloaked each one for them.
#103
That just presents an interesting applied science/engineering problem to be solved, nothing more. And THAT is just how technological advancements are made. There is no unsolvable problem. If it can be thought, it can be done. That is the truth (whether or not we WANT to pursue a solution is another question).
#104 will help those of you who find it difficult to suspend disbelief. Very often it fully deserves to be suspended, otherwise NO progress can be made. To paraphrase RFK; ‘I dream of things that never were, and ask why not’.
The day when our astronaughts to the space jump, people will say, Star Trek did it in 2009. Star Trek rocks.
103,
more like a science issue to ignore for the filmmakers. These people CHOSE to show the ship built on Earth, which tells me just how much contempt they have for real science and pursuing real scientific solutions, or inspiring folks with illustrations of a somewhat credible future. Compared to what, MESSAGE FROM SPACE?
@106: “The day when our astronaughts to the space jump, people will say, Star Trek did it in 2009. Star Trek rocks.”
Incorrect. Star Trek did it 11 years earlier. Heck, they even attempted it 15 years ago with Generations, but ended up scrapping the sequence.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Orbital_skydiving
#108
Correct, and I stand by my statement, people will say 2009 but trekkers/trekkies will cite earlier ;)
#109
Yes, yes. Surely those who know, support, respect and contribute to the material and give credit where credit is due are truly the irrelevant party when compared to people who don’t know anything. I certainly don’t want to misguide people into thinking that Trek09 truly represents the best of what the franchise is all about, because…. it’s not.
Doesn’t anybody get that going UP there is the trick … coming back down is just gravity at work.
111. And it’s the last inch that hurts ;)