FanMade: First Look at Clip and Image From Phase II prequel episode “Origins” | TrekMovie.com
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FanMade: First Look at Clip and Image From Phase II prequel episode “Origins” June 4, 2010

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: New Voyages/Phase II , trackback

The fan series Star Trek Phase II is currently in production on the special prequel episode "Origins". Producer James Cawley is so excited about a scene just completed between the young James Kirk and Captain Pike, that he had to share it. Check out the video below, plus an additional image from the episode and a chat with Matthew Ewald, the young Kirk in "Origins"./p>

 

First look at "Origins" 

Back in February the Phase II team announced they were putting together their own prequel origin story for James T. Kirk, but this one was to fit inside the prime universe of the original series. Written and directed by veteran Star Trek writer David Gerrold, "Origins" tells the story of young James T. Kirk as he starts his Starfleet career, including his time at the Academy and his first meeting with Mr. Spock. The episode will feature a redressed USS Enterprise, made to match the look of the "Where No Man Has Gone Before" pilot, including goosenecks!

Cawley has provided TrekMovie with an early cut of scene with Cadet Kirk (Matt Ewald of Galidor) getting dressed down by Capt. Pike (Colin Cunningham from Stargate SG-1).


[also on YouTube]

According to Cawley, “Origins” fits into the original Star Trek canon. In “The Menagerie, Part 1″ Captain Kirk says he had met Pike “when he was promoted to Fleet Captain” and according to Cawley, the episode “Origins” tells that story.

The new young Kirk Matt Ewald talks to TrekMovie

Speaking to TrekMovie, Matt Ewald says that playing a young Kirk is "a dream come true." The actor has been a fan of Star Trek since his father introduced him to the show as a child. And he was so impressed with the work of Phase II that he contacted James Cawley to offer his services saying he  "just wanted to be a part of it in any capacity." Ewald says he was "shocked and honored" when Cawley asked him if he was interested in playing a young Kirk, even though it meant dying his blond hair black (to match Cawley’s). To prepare for the role, Ewald says he studied both William Shatner’s and James Cawley’s Kirk, as well as read as much as he could about Kirk.

However, Ewald points out "there is a big difference between cadet Kirk and captain Kirk." He and director David Gerrold have worked to create a young Kirk going through some of the "defining moments" that helped shape him, but he is not yet that "calm, collected Kirk we know." According to Ewald, in "Origins" one of the key drivers we will see with this Kirk is "his overwhelming desire to make his dad (George Kirk played by Vic Mignona) proud." And with this obsession over gaining respect "Kirk forgets what it is to be a man, and that is one of the key lessons he learns, that is one of those defining moments that leads him to becoming the Kirk we know."


Matt Ewald as Cadet James T. Kirk with Vic Mignona as George Kirk

Origins coming this year

Cawley tells TrekMovie that he is extremely proud of the work that the cast and crew are doing on "Origins", saying "I think it is the best work we have done." Cawley is so jazzed about "Origins" he wants to try and make sure the episode gets delivered this year. Right now the Phase II schedule calls for "Enemy: Starfleet" to be released online by the first week of July, with "Origins" released some time in the fall, followed by "Kitumba." Cawley expects "The Child" to follow in 2011, with that episode requiring extra post-production in order to integrate the CG character Arex. (see previous TrekMovie article for previews of "Enemy: Starfleet", "Kitumba", "The Child").

Comments

1. chyeah - June 4, 2010

outstanding.

2. Oh Boy... - June 4, 2010

I dunno… I really thought that was pretty bad. Will be waiting for the release though to give it a chance.

3. Zebonka - June 4, 2010

Don’t take this the wrong way, but it reminds me a bit of the beginning of the video for “We’re Not Gonna Take It” by Twisted Sister. The dad goes into the boy’s bedroom and shouts at him,
“CLEAN UP THIS AREA! TIE THOSE SHOES! What do you want to do with your life?!”

The kid (in this case, Kirk) strikes a power chord and says “I WANNA ROCK”, sending the father out the bedroom window.

4. captain_neill - June 4, 2010

Looks good

But I thought Kirk said he only met Pike once in the prime universe?

5. Zebonka - June 4, 2010

I hasten to add though, I have a big fondness for what the Phase II crew have made over the past few years. Opinions vary on the end product but if there’s one thing that should be obvious to anyone, it’s that this stuff is made with love of the original material … appreciate that, at least!

6. Mark Anton - June 4, 2010

First of all, I love these New Voyage / Phase II episodes. I have tremendous respect and admiration for James Cawley. That being said, I felt that this particular scene went on too long; Pike made his point, and then he kept making it and making it. That’s what editing is for, and I can’t wait to see the finished product. Actually, I can’t wait to see the rest of the episodes too.

7. Frank - June 4, 2010

#4, in “The Menagerie, Part I” Kirk tells Commodore Mendez, “We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain.” A bit ambiguous- he may have meant that they last met then, but had met before. Like a lot of stuff in the Trek universe (prime or otherwise), it leaves just enough wiggle room for a new story …

8. Dr. Image - June 4, 2010

Awesome! Go James! Trek Prime LIVES!!!

#6- Have to agree though- cut that scene down- we get it!

9. Captain Rickover - June 4, 2010

Man, I never thought Pike could ever become SO angry…. Is this really Captain Pike?

Okay, it looks very good (as everything from Phase II so far) and I really looking forward for this episode. I just wonder if there are any references or influences from the new movie? (How Kirk is portrayed as young cadett or how Spock sees Kirk or how Bones and Kirk met first and if Bones’ backstory is the same as in the Abrams-Universe).

PS: Someone should find a better name for the Abrams-Verse. How about Nero-Universe?

10. Melissa - June 4, 2010

Yep I like phase 2 also but like someone said Pike made his point again and again. Cut the scene a little. Great Job.

11. rodd_berry - June 4, 2010

Why did he have to die his hair black? Admittedly, I haven’t watched Phase II, but William Shatner doesn’t have black hair…

12. Andy Patterson - June 4, 2010

Wow! That’s a dressing down. I’ve been teaching school 17 years and I’ve never seen a dressing down like that. And I’ve dressed down kids. Oh well, guess seeing the whole scene in context will be different.

And James, I’m still interested in doing music for you.

13. AC - June 4, 2010

Jeffrey Hunter as Pike was such a good idea. It is a shame he could not stay with the series after it was picked up. Also, it was sad what happened to Jeffrey in real life and how he died.

14. jr - June 4, 2010

I like the fact that Cowley respects the original timeline more that the alternte universe of JJ.

15. S. John Ross - June 4, 2010

#9: I call it the Redmatterverse.

16. Buzz Cagney - June 4, 2010

Arghhhhh it won’t play for outside US viewers.
And I was in such a good mood too!

17. David - June 4, 2010

I liked the lip quiver at the end, like he was about to shout KHAAAAAAAAAAN!!!

18. Imrahil - June 4, 2010

I get the point, but it’s a bit over the top. Plus, I don’t really see Pike screaming at the top of his lungs.

19. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - June 4, 2010

Looking good so far. I hope Cawley shows the U.S.S Kelvin. One thing that would be kool is to see the Kelvin at the same sector of Space that is was in the New Aternate timeline when the Narada first appeared in J.J Abrams. But nothin happens and we see the Kelvin going on to it next mission. That would be kool. This has a lot of Potentional.

20. Xavier - June 4, 2010

Horrible…

Makes kirks hot head which saves the day, into a reprimand from pike. This is disgracing to shatners memory. I bet bills rolling over in his grave as we speak.

21. Damian - June 4, 2010

#9–I’m boring. I call it the alternate universe.

22. cluster47 - June 4, 2010

Odd layout/framing choices. Between the cuts it goes from Pike looking at Kirk from Kirk’s righthand side (when the camera is looking straight at Kirk), to Kirk’s lefthand side/more straight on (when behind Kirk looking at Pike).

Other than that, and agreeing with other people’s comments of the scene being a bit long, I think it looked good.

23. Mike - June 4, 2010

Overacting, much? I can’t believe for a minute that Chris Pike (certainly not of the “Prime” timeline) would behave this way, no matter what Cadet Kirk had done. It must be something godawful for him to chew the scenery that way. Also, Cunningham seems to want to play the role more like Greenwood’s Pike — which is fine, except that Pike wouldn’t do that, either. This is WAY off base and, I hope, not indicative of the finished product.

24. NuKirk - June 4, 2010

Dear Goddddddd…. if Pike had acted like that in reality, he wouldve been ruled an mentally unstable, power hungry, abusive madman and drummed outta the service or institutionalized!! In fact even in the scene itself he acted like a madman!!! I mean thats what Id imagine the Mirror Universe Pike might act like, but not Prime Universe nor JJverse… he acted more like Captain Bligh than a Starfleet officer!

25. AJ - June 4, 2010

Not good at all. According to canon, if I recall, Kirk and Pike were simply acquainted. Also, the scrawny emo look just doesn’t cut it for a corn-fed Iowa boy.

Any Starfleet officer with such an abusive, narcissistic attitude (he sounds like he’s drunk as well), like this Pike, probably wouldn’t make it so far within the chain of command.

26. SpaceMan127 - June 4, 2010

Excellent scene. Where it follows closely with Star Trek canon or not, the dialog has a good energy to it. It paints the struggle of young Kirk to be better, stronger than than he may have first thought himself to be. I like it. Follows the spirit of the original series with characters that are interesting and well thought out.

James Cawley deserves all the credit he can get. I remember seeing his very first episode and how well it was done for a non-studio production. And now so many years later, the production team is still going strong. Really looking forward to the completed episode. Most fan-made films have such a unique determination to tell good stories. And it is so satisfying to see this one alive. Makes up for the missing Star Trek television shows that so many of us hunger to see.

Truly an amazing effort.

27. NuKirk - June 4, 2010

#22- I assume you mean a disgrace to Jeff Hunter’s memory, since Shatner isnt dead, unless you meant a disgrace to the memory of Shatner’s version of KIrk…

28. Capt. of the USS Anduril - June 4, 2010

DUDE!! Vic Mignona as George Kirk?!?! That’s epically awesome!!!

29. J_irwin56 - June 4, 2010

Hahahahahahahaha! He gets chewed out by Major Davis. Now all we need is to have Col. O’neill come chew him out for letting John DeLance steal the X-303.

“MAJOR DAVIS!!!!! THIS, IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE MOST SECURE FACILITY ON THE FACE OF THE PLANET!!!!! WHAT HAPPEND!!!!!!!”

30. Jason P Hunt - SciFi4Me.com - June 4, 2010

I agree that this portrayal of Pike is out of character from Hunter’s. Pike has always been a very in-control type. That’s one of the things Dr. Boyce noted when he was playing barkeep. Pike is driven by a need to be perfect. And that should extend to his self-control.

And Cadet Kirk is a little off, as well. When you consider he’s been described as a “stack of books on legs” I think he would be a little more in control and self-assured than this, especially since he’s been pretty much on his own without a father at home.

Production value is still great, though I agree that the scene’s long and the camera angles don’t quite match.

Of course, this is opinion. And Cawley & Co. are certainly fit to interpret TREK any way they want.

31. Lord Garth, Formerly of Izar - June 4, 2010

Don’t mean this to be nasty but the young Kirk actor looks exactly like a young Adolf Hitler without the mustache

32. ety3 - June 4, 2010

WTF?

It’s supposed to be canon but Pike seems utterly unhinged, Kirk a puss … and wouldn’t Pike have been promoted much closer to Kirk actually taking command (and thus years after Kirk graduated the Academy)?

I dunno. I’ll wait to see the whole thing before I pass judgment.

33. Drew - June 4, 2010

People… This is about characters not how an actor looks or how light or dark his hair is.
We’ve only seen Pike in the pilot episode (No the Menagerie Parts I and II do not count) My point is do not judge one tiny scene from the ‘Origins’ episode.

34. Jim - June 4, 2010

1. I attended a military academy – this was a light dressing down compared to what I saw and experienced there.
2. Am I the only one who bristles when they are called “cadets”, and not “midshipmen” at Starfleet Academy?

35. CmdrR - June 4, 2010

It’s OK, but it badly needs some editing and better direction/camera work. It looks like it could stand to be trimmed by about 1/3. Still… for a fanzine, these are terrific fun. I don’t mean to knock the overall effort. I enjoy them.

Thanks guys.

36. Scott B. here. - June 4, 2010

I’ve been a big fan of James Cawley’s take on classic Trek, but I have the same problem with this scene and its implications that I have with the Abrams’ take on Kirk. Nowhere in the dialog of the original show was it ever implied that Kirk was a clown or a jerk at Starfleet Academy. If anything, that image began with the Kobayashi Maru stuff in TWOK, which I was never terribly comfortable with. (Couldn’t his beating the no-win scenario have been a little more subtle, a little more meritorious than merely hacking the program? I’d like to think so.) The Kirk of TOS was buttoned up at the Academy. “Positively grim.” “A stack of books with legs.” In Lt. Kirk’s class, you either think or sink.

I think the Kirk who is so easily parodied — the gambler, the space cowboy, the womanizer — came later, much of it after the show went off the air frankly. First there was the soldier-scholar. The Milton -reading chess master. That was the foundation to the guy who then had to learn that sometimes you have to close the rule book and fly by the seat of your pants to survive on the frontier of space. Kirk earned the right to bend the rules by knowing them forwards and backwards first.

Scott B. out.

37. Blowback - June 4, 2010

Nice to someone in Starfleet acting like they have a spine for a change…

38. vantheman77 - June 4, 2010

Since we’re in the Prime Universe, Shore Leave revealed that Kirk was described as grim and serious in the Academy. In Menagerie, he met Pike when he was promoted to Fleet Captain so basically they should’ve met when Kirk would be First Officer at that point just before being promoted as the 3rd Captain of the Enterprise. Cawley may be inspired by the new movie, along with appearing in it as well.

39. John from Cincinnati - June 4, 2010

Somwhere along the line James T. Kirk has gone from having light brown/blondish hair to dark brown.

When did that happen??????

40. Jeyl - June 4, 2010

If this scene was in Trek09, I would have seen it 12, maybe 20 times. I hated NuKirk so freaking much that seeing this happen to Prime Kirk just makes me like Prime Kirk all the better.

Seriously, I want NuKirk to go out in the most horrible way imaginable. He’s nothing but Kirk’s character at face value.

41. I Dont Like Tennant - June 4, 2010

rubbish.

sadly.

42. Lt. Bailey - June 4, 2010

Very well done, the attention to details is most impressive on these films.

James Cawley does a masterful job of TOS era. Who wouldn’t want to be in one these films just to see the sets and push a button or two. I know I sure would.

43. Gregg from DC - June 4, 2010

If this is supposed to be following cannon, what happened to Lt Kirk serving aboard the USS Farragut, after the academy, as stated in the epoisode “Obsession”? Didn’t Bones comment during that show that Kirk looked up to the Farraguts Capt Garrovick as a hero figure and took Garrovicks death very hard and personally? I suspect as mentioned during Managerie Pt. 1 that Kirk never met Pike until Kirk was promoted by Starfleet to Capt of the Enterprise. I would have thought the David Gerrold would have done better research into the history of the prime Universe.

44. andrew - June 4, 2010

I hate to join the parade of negativity, but to be honest, I don’t think this is very good. This is obviously just my opinion, but to me the big thing about the 2009 film is that is raised the caliber of acting associated with Star Trek. While this is a fan product, and should therefore be graded on a curve, it still contributed to Star Trek’s image in some fashion. Given the quality of the production values, I’m not sure it reflects all that well.

Still, it is interesting and the passion that the people who carry it out have for it is admirable.

I wonder if in this story, Spock is Kirk’s superior officer as well as in ST09? The reference to Spock makes it sound like it.

45. Tyrus Manuel - June 4, 2010

I agree with the canon aspects of this episode and if Cawley and his crew don’t slavishly follow canon then what’s the point?? You take what was established and you make things work and fit within that canon, its part of the challenge and the joy as a fan of seeing someone pull it off.

Show me Kirk, Mitchell, a young Carol Marcus and Finnegan (maybe they will) but you don’t have to toss Pike and Spock in at the wrong time to make some neat little package. We CAN have a Kirk story with no Spock! Or McCoy and he doesn’t have to die at the end…

46. Buzz Cagney - June 4, 2010

ah, just noticed that I can watch it on YouTube (thanks!).

I actually found that quite powerful. Do we know what young Kirk had done to deserve such a dressing down?
And good to see Colin Cunningham. Always enjoyed his character in SG1.
I’ll reserve full judgement on this until we’ve seen the whole ep. But as always, James C., you’re work creates debate. ;-)

47. Captain Dunsel - June 4, 2010

Leaving the canon issues aside, one thing I notice about this scene is something common to many amateur and semi-professional productions, and that’s a problem with pacing. Several others have commented that the scene is too long, but that’s not really the problem. The difficulty is that the scene is inconsistent in its flow.

In major productions, there’s a reason that they photograph the same scene from multiple angles. It gives the director and the film editor a great deal of flexibility in how they actually put the scene together.

Unlike a stage play, with long rehearsal schedules, a film such as this requires the actors to learn a great deal of dialogue in a very short time. As a result, actors sometimes forget the lines for a moment, causing “hiccups” in the flow of the scene. Having five or six angles of the scene gives the director and editor the power to close those gaps (or sometimes lengthen them if needed).

In lower budget productions, there are often fewer shots made of a scene for obvious reasons of film costs and time constraints. That, and the relative skills and temperments of the director and editor can have a strong impact on the outcome of a scene.

48. Do You Wanna Dance - June 4, 2010

Intense.

49. OneBuckFilms - June 4, 2010

46 – Kobayashi Maru, maybe?

50. CoolPT - June 4, 2010

I didn’t like the up and down madness of Pike. Get to the point, tell the cadet his error, his expectations, why he is doing this, out of respect for his Dad? Maybe a little insight as to what the bad behavior was to begin with may have let us know why Pike was soooo pissed! Needs recut and more to cannon. I just can’t believe in Pike with his attitude like that. But it IS a first draft, I hope, and will look better when all is done. Go get em cawley!

51. Buzz Cagney - June 4, 2010

#49 ah yes. So obvious I can’t imagine why I didn’t think of it! lol
But I’m not sure how he could go from the dressing down he gets there to that commendation for original thinking?

52. Leggo - June 4, 2010

Nah, I liked the clip. What can you say? I sat through the whole thing and wanted it to keep going. Forget cannon, forget expectations for a Character that we’ve seen in 1 movie and a single episode of TOS. This was entertaining and well written. Sure, Pike went a little far at times, but I thought he did it in measures and when he was cool, he spoke so very well. Good work everyone. Keep at it!

53. Al - June 4, 2010

All wrong, all wrong.

No way WHATSOEVER that Pike would be Captain Shouty.

Not the slightest evidence of this in the affable and cerebral characterisation by Hunter (based on Roddenberry’s own bible.) And I don’t accept he changed as a result of some plot – Captain’s don’t turn 180 degrees in their style.

Not good

54. Taylor - June 4, 2010

Ehhh, I agree with most folks. Good acting, interesting interaction, but it really took me out of the story; one of the most valuable abilities of a Commanding Officer is the ability to keep his or her cool. Pike’s just coming off like someone with an uncontrollable rage disorder.

55. Pants Bulge - June 4, 2010

It’s a :50 scene at best. Way too long. Also, so somewhere other than uber dramatic. That’s not working either.

56. Stanley - June 4, 2010

That plain sucked…honestly…

57. The Bear - June 4, 2010

Looks good to me. Can’t wait to see the whole episode.

58. scott - June 4, 2010

re: ” actors sometimes forget the lines for a moment, causing “hiccups” in the flow of the scene. ”

…supposedly the source of the patented “Shatner-esque” delivery!

I do wish this Pike had more of a Jeffrey Hunter look and demeanor.

And yeah, hair color being about the easiest thing one can do to physically adapt to a role, I don’t know why Cawley and Ewald didn’t both dye their hair 60s Shatner-Kirk brown. Black haired Kirk is just an unnecessary distraction, like seeing a blonde McCoy or a redheaded Spock. There’s so much that is hard to do, to recreate an iconic character, why not at least do the easy stuff?

59. Jorg Sacul - June 4, 2010

Just re the point of Pike being promoted to “Fleet Captain”… who ever made it canon that he gave up command of the Enterprise at that promotion? He could have been Captain of the Enterprise, as his flagship, as well as several other vessels in convoy. I enjoyed this- Kirk must’ve done something completely boneheaded to spark Pike’s ire. Maybe Jeff Hunter wasn’t so passionate, but maybe Captain Pike has something more to him than one pilot episode to his character to explore.

60. SebiMeyer - June 4, 2010

I’m confused. The Child won’t come out till 2011? Are you sure? Cawley was at FedCon and showed a roughcut that was almost done. I seem to remember him saying it would be out soon.

61. T.'. - June 4, 2010

T.’.

Y’know, this kind of stuff has always simultaneously gotten on my nerves yet prompted a perverse kind of fascination. It is, relative to Star Trek, “speculative freemasonry”, in a sense, and, as with the rest of the fan based cultural continuum, shows how powerful and long lasting this stuff is. (In the future, will Kirk, Spock, et al be seen as classic characters such as Hamlet, Sherlock Holmes, and Batman, being eternally re-done, with new actors wanting their chance at their own individual take on Kirk?) So, whatever the cheese factor in any fan based production (I’m looking at you, Cawley, as the best and the worst!) I do appreciate that this “human adventure” continues…

T.’.

62. Oz - June 4, 2010

As to those who are calling this overacting and Pike being unhinged….I don’t get that at all. We do not yet know what incident prompted this dressing down for one thing. Also, keep in mind this is a private moment of Kirk being ‘taken to the woodshed’. I agree Pike would never do this in front of others, but one-on-one trying to get through to a stubborn cadet…yes I can believe it. The acting was very very good in my humble opinion…just my two cents of course. Keep up the good work Mr. Cawley and company.

63. T2 - June 4, 2010

Great acting….check
Great set design….check
Great costuming….check
Believable as Pike and Kirk….not so much

I love Phase II, I love all of Cawley’s work, the authenticity of production is beyond admirable – from the details (minutia and major), to sound, lighting, casting, etc., but this scene just doesn’t do it for me. Nevertheless, I have plenty of optimism for the final product.

64. Al - June 4, 2010

Cawley’s hair was dyed black for his day job as an Elvis impersonator.

True.

On such things are new canons founded…

The scene and the acting still sucketh

65. Al - June 4, 2010

And here he is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwW6JbH12QU

66. Mr Phil - June 4, 2010

I like watching Phase 2, makes me cringe occasionally, but has some really great moments which are totally evocative of the original series.

Didn’t like this scene though – can’t believe that Pike would get as “emotionally compromised” as this. Way way too OTT.
Give me Bruce Greenwood as Pike any day. And give me Star Trek 2 (2) tomorrow!

67. S. John Ross - June 4, 2010

#36: “(Couldn’t his beating the no-win scenario have been a little more subtle, a little more meritorious than merely hacking the program? I’d like to think so.) ”

Especially when given a commendation for “original” thinking!

68. Christian Fauteux - June 4, 2010

Could that guy try to act any harder? Oh, and why was Kirk on the verge of tears throughout the whole scene?!? Kirk don’t cry!
Once again, Phase 2 is just too wordy for me. They take things way too seriously.

69. THX-1138 - June 4, 2010

Hi. We’re Star Trek fans. We would complain about a free lunch.

70. Phil - June 4, 2010

Got moderated…..good to see the thread is headed my way, though…

71. Mr Phil - June 4, 2010

Problem with free lunches is there is no such thing as a free lunch.

72. Allen Williams - June 4, 2010

wow they really changed the release schedule didn’t they. enemy star fleet was supposed to come out back in april 1st and the other 2 episodes were supposed to come this year. Now this one got shoved into the lineup before the other ones and they are being delayed till next year. I wasn’t expecting to get 3 this year anyway. I’ve been following phase 2 for a long time and they have a hard enough time releasing more than 1 episode per year.

73. THX-1138 - June 4, 2010

#71

How much do you pay to watch Phase II? Add up the computer costs and how much your internet bill is per month and divide by the number of websites you visit (at no additional charge).

Figuratively speaking, it’s pretty close to a free lunch. I believe that my original intent wasn’t too vague.

74. Paul L. - June 4, 2010

I dunno about the scene. Colin Cunningham I enjoyed as Pike. That’s the kind of scene that actors love, that extended monologue with the added bonus of playing from anger, the easiest of emotions to emulate. Get those two things and you can really play with the rest.

But Matt Ewald… I found myself watching his reactions more often than not in this scene, and not particularly liking what I saw: upset, hurt, the verge of tears. Seriously, James T Kirk on the verge of tears when dressed down by a superior officer? No. It should be sullen smouldering anger. Perhaps regret. At worst just a blank, controlled expression. But never tears. Not for James T, a character with a very solidly established history of behaviour.

Now, in all fairness (and this has been pointed out earlier), we don’t see what prompted this scene. But I cannot think of anything that would produce the series of expressions that crossed Mr. Ewald’s face in the role of James T. Hell, Kirk didn’t cry when Spock died.

*shrugs*

I dunno. Perhaps I’m making a mountain out of a…. moderately sized hill, and in its proper context Mr. Ewald’s reactions will make sense. I am looking forward to the next episodes of Phase II, and if proven wrong I will be more than happy to eat my words about Mr. Ewald’s performance.

75. Wait a minute... - June 4, 2010

I’m sure that these guys are doing this from the best motives, but most of the Phase Two stuff (to me) is just dreadful.

It’s *just* my opinion, I’m not stating it as universal truth, but I find this stuff almost painful to watch, its so clumsy and awkward. But others can like it, and that’s fine – we don’t need to agree.

But for the record, we don’t need to be thankful for the free lunch if it’s too bad to swallow. The idea that the folks who think this is crap are being ungracious or mean is just childish.

76. John Gill - June 4, 2010

I gotta’ say, the EXACTNESS of Pike’s shirt (length, neck, color, insignia) more than makes up for the a fore-mentioned “long” scene, over-acting and “emo look” for Kirk!
BRAVO to the wardrobe people on this clip, BRAVO!!!

77. THX-1138 - June 4, 2010

#75

Who you calling childish, Mr. poopy-pants?

If you don’t like Phase II why do you feel compelled to watch it? One would presume that a rational person, upon discovering they didn’t like something, would cease to engage it. Are you saying that you keep going back to watch something you don’t like? Or that you are basing your opinion on a very limited exposure to it? Either way, your logic is flawed and your criticism is to be questioned.

78. Viking - June 4, 2010

I dunno. We’ve seen James. T. Kirk. happy. We’ve seen James. T. Kirk. sad. We’ve seen James. T. Kirk. horny (a general state of emotional stasis for the man). We’ve seen James. T. Kirk. mad. We’ve even seen James. T. Kirk. stinky drunk. But we’ve never seen James. T. Kirk. SIMPERING LIKE A GIRL!

79. dmduncan - June 4, 2010

Thank God for Bruce Greenwood and Chris Pine. But it’s still fun to see the fan made productions.

80. Wait a minute... - June 4, 2010

#77

Don’t be silly, I just check from time to time and it’s still awful – just like when I checked on this.

If it gets better, I might watch it for more than the two or three minutes it takes my gag reflex to kick in.

81. NCC-73515 - June 4, 2010

I wonder what he has done ON!!! HIS!!! SHIP!!! – Pike is Shatner now?

82. THX-1138 - June 4, 2010

#80

Wow. You must have a really weak stomach. Obviously your critiques must be quite insightful after a whole 2-3 minutes of viewing.

I reiterate my point that it makes little sense to continue to watch something you dislike. Just move on. Unless your real point (and those of the other complainers) is to just bash on something.

83. Paul B. - June 4, 2010

This clip is truly awful. Funny thing is that I kept thinking, “Phase II would do this better…oh…wait.” Seriously, this is dreadful by comparison to other Phase II episodes! Terrible acting and directing, dialogue that doesn’t fit classic Trek (“keelhaul your ass” “I’m an ass), and BAD directing. Very amateur-looking, which is something Phase II usually rises above.

I’ve liked most of what Cawley and crew have done, but this footage doesn’t live up to their work. I hope they can fix it in the editing room!

84. Coss_Michael - June 4, 2010

Personally, I thought the scene was excellent. Every actor brings his own interpetation to a role, otherwise we’d just grab some of Sean Connery’s DNA and make a never-ending Bond clone. Put the scene in the context of the story, and it might eliminate some of the questions and comments that have arise, though it’ll probably generate new ones. I’ve been following the Phase II series for a few years now, and you have to admire their dedication and devotion to Trek. The same’s true for a number of fan-driven efforts. I haven’t quite gotten used to a Vulcan with a Scottish accent yet, but the IDIC holds true in every universe.

85. Sebastian - June 4, 2010

I love what Cawley and company do with this series. I appreciate the adherence to the uniforms of the era, and the cadet uniforms (as established in TOS). The production values are, as always, astonishingly good!

My only nit; I just have a hard time believing that that barking hot-headed officer in the clip is also the much cooler Capt Pike we saw in “The Cage” or the 2009 movie (played very similarly by both the late Jeff Hunter and Bruce Greenwood, respectively). He just doesn’t feel like the same man (yet I could easily segue Greenwood’s Pike with Hunter’s; that was a perfect fit). A minor nit, granted. I’ll wait for the episode before I say any more. : )

Otherwise I (as always) look very forward to ANY new episode of this series. ST-PII just drips with passion and ‘love of the game!’ Kudos to Mr Cawley and everyone else who had any part in the production of this series. Thanks for keeping the dream of the ‘prime universe’ alive! Since I love both TOS and the new movie (and have no conflict enjoying both), it’s a win-win situation for fans like myself who feel the same.

86. Slick1KO - June 4, 2010

Wow!!! That was really, really BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No that was well….REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BAD!!!!!!!

87. scott - June 4, 2010

re: “dialogue that doesn’t fit classic Trek (‘keelhaul your ass’ ”

Yes, that distracted me too. It’s the kind of thing that doesn’t have to be there, and for no good reason, reminds you that you’re not watching something from the original production era.

To anyone who is down on Phase 2 for anything beyond noble intentions, I’d suggest watching their episode “World Enough and Time.” Not perfect… I could nitpick about one bad scene and little things that could have been better, but overall, it really is terrific… far better than many Trek episodes that made it to air.

88. David G. - June 4, 2010

Granted, we don’t know yet what precedes this, or how important this clip is to the rest of the story. But, at 3 minutes of just 2 people talking to each other, this scene seemed to run too long.

89. Paul B. - June 4, 2010

87 – Scott, you’re right. “World Enough and Time” is an excellent episode, and it’s an example of the high quality I expect from Phase II at this point.

That’s why this Pike/Kirk scene is so disappointing. It looks like a step back from the stunning work of “World Enough.”

Hmm…I might go watch that episode now. :)

90. J_schinderlin56 - June 4, 2010

The young Kirk does seem a bit Emo.

91. Montreal_Paul - June 4, 2010

I feel that Hunter’s Pike and Greenwood’s Pike have a similar temperment… Cunninham’s Pike seems a little out of character. When I think Pike, I think calm, cool, collected. He rules with control. This Pike seems out of controld and unhinged. Over the top to be sure. But that is just my first impression from this scene. I want to see more before I dismiss this version of Pike. I really, really liked Greenwood’s portrayal.

92. Scott B. here. - June 4, 2010

Re: #67 – S. John Ross – Exactly! Thanks! My suspicion is that no writer has been smart enough to come up with something cleverer than “Kirk wanted to win, so he hacked the program and made the test more to his liking.” That’s not commendation-worthy behavior, and not particularly original thinking.

I maintain that Kirk at the Academy was a straight arrow; not a jerk or an ass or a punk.

Scott B. out.

93. andrew - June 4, 2010

Jeez, he’s an Elvis impersonator too? Has this guy ever had an original thought?

94. The Original Spock's Brain - June 4, 2010

Scene is over-written, too long. Is cadet Kirk gonna cry.

95. Geoffers - June 4, 2010

Sorry.. shite!

96. Shatoupee - June 4, 2010

Outstanding! Is Cawley and company coming to DragonCon this year?!!

97. combatkarl - June 4, 2010

Wonderful visceral acting on both parts. I can’t wait to see the finished product. Keep up the outstanding work James Cawley & Phase II crew!

98. JHarris - June 4, 2010

At least it’s not some fanboy in front of a 10’X10′ green screen like the other fan series.

99. Daniel Shock - June 4, 2010

While Pike may be somewhat out of character, I think it’s an outstanding leap forward in acting quality for the series. Bravo!

100. J_schinderlin56 - June 4, 2010

In response to the “He acts too insane to be Pike”. Go back and watch “The Cage” Pike went a little crazy on the Talosions. So, I think Major Davis did a good job playing Pike. I think Kirk was miss-casted however. His acting seemed appropriate for the situation, but not the character.

And I can’t really see Spock calling anyone an “ass”. That just doesn’t fit.

101. Larry Talbot - June 4, 2010

Commodore Mendez: You ever met Chris Pike?
Kirk: When he was promoted to fleet captain.

Very sneaky these Phase II folks: Kirk actually met Pike when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain–not when Kirk took over command of the Enterprise. I wonder what exciting story ends up getting Pike promoted to Fleet Captain years ago. (It’s also pretty cool that Pike remained a Fleet Captain while commanding the Enterprise for over a decade. What better place from which to command an entire Fleet than the flagship!)

It looks like the average run-of-the-mill Star Trek fans think all this is “non-canon.” But the really detail-oriented, hard-core Trek fans see how this actually fits. It’s clear these Phase II guys are *more* knowledgable on the details of Star Trek canon than the average fan, not “less” knowledgable.

102. Larry Talbot - June 4, 2010

@100

I know that having Spock smiling while squeezing the leaves of the “singing plants” in “The Cage” just doesn’t fit either. So I wonder if we’ll find out why Spock seemed to be going through a human-ish stage 13 to 15 years ago. There’s so much we don’t know about these characters–although we sometimes *think* we know it all. It’s nice that there are fans who are so knowledgable on this stuff that they can still pull some surprises out of their hats and still be faithful to Trek canon.

103. Finding Nimoy - June 4, 2010

Uh, yes we have.

“Klingon bastards, you killed my son!”

P.S. I laugh at those who act as if Kirk, in any universe, could never have been a stack of books with legs in school and NOT ended-up great leaders and business people. It seems like none of you remember what it was like to be in your early 20s.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

78. Viking – June 4, 2010

I dunno. We’ve seen James. T. Kirk. happy. We’ve seen James. T. Kirk. sad. We’ve seen James. T. Kirk. horny (a general state of emotional stasis for the man). We’ve seen James. T. Kirk. mad. We’ve even seen James. T. Kirk. stinky drunk. But we’ve never seen James. T. Kirk. SIMPERING LIKE A GIRL!

104. Larry Talbot - June 4, 2010

@78 “Simpering?” I don’t think Kirk did any simpering in the clip. Did you mean “whimpering?”

And I agree with 103: if this is some kind of emergency mission or special training during Kirk’s first year at the Academy that makes him–what? Seventeen years old? I wouldn’t expect him to yet be the Kirk we know and love; I’d expect him to be about as emotional as Charlie Evans. Hm. Foreshadowing of some kind?

105. Daniel - June 4, 2010

Parts of that were very good. I’m just not sure which parts. As a person who has attempted to make videos on his own, I can tell you it is tough. If one thing goes wrong (sets, lighting, sound, acting, editing, etc.) it all sucks. If I had made this, I would be proud.

106. AzarN - June 4, 2010

Yet further examples of the consistently dreadful quality of Phase II. There’s a reason Abrams et al. have risen through the ranks to make multi-million dollar pictures and Cawley and crew are making them out of a garage.

The difference is called talent.

107. Ripper - June 4, 2010

Let us all remember… even though it isn’t TOS per say. Captain Picard was generally as i recall a cool collected character. But do you all remember the dress down he gave to Wesley Crusher?

Captain Picard had very clearly made his point after only a minute. But as a commanding officer, role model and tutor. Picard wanted to make sure his point was abundantly clear.

——

59 INT. READY ROOM

Picard is sitting at his desk looking at something on
the terminal when the door CHIMES.

PICARD
Come.

The door OPENS and Wesley ENTERS. He’s a little
apprehensive about this meeting… but he’s ready for
it.

WESLEY
Captain.

Picard studies him for a moment… pointedly does not
offer him a chair… then he turns around the terminal
on his desk so that Wes can see it. Picard activates
the terminal.

PICARD
Can you tell me what maneuver this
is?

60 ON TERMINAL (OPTICAL)

The screen shows a computer simulation of the five Nova
ships as they head around Titan. The ships slingshot
around the moon as seen before… go into a loop…
then shoot off in opposing directions and perform an
intricate maneuver which results in all five ships
coming together at one point and then bursting outward
simultaneously… a trail of BURNING PLASMA left in
their wake. The image FREEZES on the five ships in the
sunburst pattern.

61 RESUME SCENE

Wesley looks up at Picard who has never taken his eyes
off him.

WESLEY
It’s the Kolvoord Starburst.

PICARD
Five ships crossing within ten
meters of each other and then
igniting their plasma trails.
One of the most difficult and
spectacular demonstrations of
precision flying. It hasn’t been
performed by an Academy team in
over a century. Do you know why?

WESLEY
It was banned by the Academy
following a training accident.

PICARD
An accident in which all five
cadets lost their lives.
(beat)
Nicholas Locarno wanted to end
his Academy career in a blaze of
glory… so he convinced the four
of you to learn the Kolvoord
Starburst for the commencement
demonstration. If it worked,
you’d thrill the assembled
guests… and Locarno would
graduate as a living legend.
Except it didn’t work… and
Joshua Albert paid the price.

There is a long beat.

PICARD
Am I correct?

Wesley looks away and Picard’s voice turns harder.

PICARD
(hard)
I asked you a question, Cadet.

Wesley’s head snaps up at the tone of command, but he
doesn’t yield.

WESLEY
(stiffly)
I… choose not to answer, sir.

Picard regards him seriously… he gets up from the
desk and moves closer to Wesley. His attitude is firm
and unbending.

PICARD
You choose not to answer… and
yet you’ve already given an answer
to the inquiry… and that answer
was a lie.

WESLEY
I said the accident occurred after
the loop, and it did.

PICARD
(hard)
But you neglected to mention the
fact that following the loop your
team executed a dangerous maneuver
which was the direct cause of the
crash.
(beat)
Yes, you told the truth… but
only to a point. And a lie of
omission is still a lie.

Wesley says nothing and Picard takes a couple of steps
away from him.

PICARD
Do you remember the day you first
came aboard this ship? Your
mother brought you to the
bridge…

WESLEY
Yes.

PICARD
You even sat in my chair. It
annoyed me at first… a
presumptuous child playing on my
ship. But I never forgot the way
you knew every control and
display before you ever set foot
on the bridge. You acted like
you belonged there.

WESLEY
(quiet)
I remember.

PICARD
Later… when I decided to make
you an acting ensign, I was
convinced you would be an
outstanding officer. I’ve never
questioned that conviction…
until now.

Picard turns and moves in on Wesley… finally standing
only a couple inches away from Wesley even as his voice
drops down to nearly a whisper.

PICARD
The first duty of every Starfleet
officer is to the truth… be it
scientific truth, historical
truth, or personal truth. It is
the guiding principle upon which
Starfleet is based. If you cannot
find it within yourself to stand
up and tell the truth about what
happened… you do not deserve
to wear that uniform.

Picard’s gaze is withering… but Wesley manages to
stand there and take it without flinching. Picard
finally breaks the look and moves back to sit at his
desk.

PICARD
Mister Crusher… I’ll make this
simple for you. Either you come
forward and tell Admiral Brand
what really took place… or I
will.

WESLEY
Captain…

PICARD
Dismissed.

——–

A very long scene. Now the one thing we have to take into consideration regarding this scene is we don’t know the character of the Prime Timeline Pike that well. We got an impression of him in The Cage. Now here we are given a scene out of context. As the Captain, Pike is clearly making sure to the younger Kirk that his point is absolutely clear in a similar way Picard did… okay a little stronger. Pike isn’t Picard.

Now yes Pike may be going over the line… but let me put this to you… whatever happened…. and it sounds serious… don’t you think that the Captain may have a right to be angry… we don’t know what happened… we don’t have any context… not yet… not until the episode is released.

108. Ripper - June 4, 2010

Also remember that James Cawley and his crew are still filming Origins. This scene has most likely been taken from the online edit done on set very quickly. No grading, no color correction, no tightening. Just quickly put together.

James was excited about it and shared it. No matter how rough it may be. At the end of the day it is still rough and will most likely be smoothed out before it’s final release.

109. JimJ - June 4, 2010

I have always liked Cawley’s work and what they’ve done, but I just really don’t care for this scene. I’ll take the Kirk decribed in Shore Leave or the Kirk in Star Trek 09 way before this one. Pike??? Huh???? That’s not the Chris Pike I’ve grown to appreciate. He came WAYYY TOOO unglued. Frankly, I like the Pike in Trek 09 the best. I am sorry, but Spock would NOT call him an ass. He might say a lot of other things, but I can’t hear Spock say, “James T. Kirk, stop acting like an ass.”

Sorry James, I usually sing praises, but not this time.

110. Larry Talbot - June 4, 2010

@109

I agree: I can no more imagine Spock calling Cadet Kirk an “ass” than I can imagine Spock saying “I was attempting the hell to communicate” or “Just one damned minute, Admiral” or “Go to hell.”

111. StarFuryG7 - June 4, 2010

That scene is a fine example as to why Phase II should have focused on completely different characters, separate and apart from the originals. It would have worked fairly well in that respect, but as young Kirk and mentor Pike, I just can’t accept or buy into it frankly.

112. JimJ - June 4, 2010

#110-Larry, look….I thought those scenes were great for Spock at that time because he had aged, changed, mellowed, and was at peace with hiself and who he was, at that point. This is an origin story and Spock wasn’t like that back then. Wow, I’m one of the most positive posters at this site and I throw out a litle diagreement and someone starts ripping immediately with sarcasm? Sad.

113. Larry Talbot - June 4, 2010

I wonder if Kirk is a little bit cocky at the very beginning of his Academy days, has this encounter with Pike (whatever it resulted from), gets the crap scared out of him, and in some kind of “scared straight” kind of way, for the remaining three and a half Academy years becomes a grim, straight-laced model student. Everyone who met him or knew him primarly from *after* this incident would know him simply as the studious bookworm that he became. (I don’t know how studious Kirk really was in his days before the Academy; I think he even said he had a friend who had to pull some strings to get him accepted.)

114. Ripper - June 4, 2010

You know the thing about a human trying to quote a vulcan… it sounds more emotional…. there is always the chance that Spock was trying to put it in a term that Kirk would understand. He used the word “ass” assuming it was a coliqual Kirk would understand. But without giving meaning to the word. His Academy Instructors had called him one with meaning and emotion. But knowing Spock as we do he may not have put it that way and this young teenage Kirk… as teenagers do… took it the wrong way.

115. Ripper - June 4, 2010

Also don’t forget Kirk was constantly bullied by Finnegan. The endless torment i’m sure he’d put up would put him on edge. Always wondering that people are mocking him degrading him… later he builds upon that too and it strengthens him later… allowing him to finally get his wish fulfilled and punching ‘Finnegan’ in ‘Shore Leave’

116. dwnicolo - June 4, 2010

Replying to #12, trust me that’s typical Navy ass chewing. Take it from a twenty year Navy man.

117. Larry Talbot - June 4, 2010

@112

“Spock wasnt like that back then?” You seem to know him pretty well from the *one hour* you spent with him thirteen years ago.

I recall some Trek novel (and my apologies to the writer since I can’t remember which one), where in order to fit in with his human co-workers, Spock tried wearing a facade of emotionalism for a while (much like Data tried out his emotion chip). Like Data, the plan backfired and Spock’s feeble attempts at this feigned emotionalism ended up contributing to crewmembers deaths. Because of the disasterous results, in the future, Spock ended up *over* compensating and becoming even less emotional than his father (who even smiles at his wife Amanda).

I have no idea why Kirk thinks Spock called him an ass and I have no idea if the script writer is subscribing to this old “Spock tried on an emotionalism costume for a while” notion. But people sure are concluding that Spock is completely mischaracterized in this episode based on one tiny data point.

But for whatever reason and because of whatever interesting chain of events Spock ends up calling Kirk and ass, like I said in an earlier post: are the Phase II folks and David Gerrold *more* knowledgable than the “experts” here on this forum or are they *less* knowledgable?

Star Trek fans are an odd lot: “Please tell me the stories I *already* think I know; don’t presume to be able to tell me something I don’t yet know.”

118. Larry Talbot - June 4, 2010

@111

Yes, Phase II should have focused on other characters so that they could achieve the same kind of output, viewership, and media attention that the other fan-based Trek-related shows focusing on other starships’ adventures currently enjoy.

119. James Cawley - June 5, 2010

Most of you have no clue as to what prompts this little exchange between these two characters, and you will simply have to wait to find out.
No canon violations at all, I can assure you! Those of you who think there are, are dead wrong. Kirk is a Cadet here, and he will not be promoted ridiculously as a plot point. He will finish his schooling, and go on to eventually serve aboard the Farragut and so forth. He is in fact a very driven “Stack of books with legs”. So driven in fact that he is blinded to certain things, reckless at times and certainly he is over confident. Pike is well within character to dress him down for what occurs and Kirk as young as he is, is not quite prepared for it. You want Gary, and Carol and Finnegan? Well they are all in the story. And Kirk’s little line about Spock calling him an ass is a figure of speach on his part, nothing more.
My trust is in David Gerrold and D.C. Fontana, Two of the architects of classic Trek. That is all I need.
James

120. DJT - June 5, 2010

No disrespect to Phase II, but I think Paramount should rent Cawley’s sets and film pre-TOS-prime with experienced actors.

121. Walshy - June 5, 2010

Full Ahead Cheese Factor 7, Captain……..

122. captain_neill - June 5, 2010

21

An alternate universe is better, calling it the Abramsverse makes it seem like too much an ego trip for Abrams over writing Roddenberry.

123. captain_neill - June 5, 2010

Although this i the origin of the prime universe Kirk, I was thinking that it did not have to take cues from the latest movie as its different canon.

I always got the impression that Kirk was serious at the academy and less reckless but then he did cheat at KM. Also that he never met Spock until he assumed command of the Enterprise.

124. Dalek - June 5, 2010

The dressing down may appear extreme but as yet we don’t know the context. For all we know kirk may have seriously embarrassed Pike in front of someone significant.

You can’t say Pike would never react like that based on The Cage. Could you say that Sisko would never react to Eddington like that in “For The Uniform” based on his character in the pilot?

Volatile situations bring out in extremes in all characters. Pike appears to realise he is being too harsh and attempts to appeal to Kirk’s more rational side later on in the scene.

As for the colour of peoples hair, it is as irrelevant as pike and shatner having different coloured eyes. I seem to recall it going from light brown to very dark brown between TOS and the movies so Kirk definitely believes in some sort of bleeching.

125. Dalek - June 5, 2010

123 captain neil, may I call you captain? There have been no references in TOS that state one way or another that kirk didn’t know Spock prior to the enterprise. Therefore there is wiggle room for any interpretation. In fact you could say that Spock being very familiar with Kirks performance on the kobiashi Maru suggests he definitely knew of him at the academy, bones too. Of course you can also argue that his performance was legendary but Saavik knew nothing of it. The point is the creative canvas was never set and any interpretation is therefore valid.

Two TOS writers, JJ’s writers, and William Shatner have all written that Spock and Kirk knew each other back in the academy days and who are we to argue with them?

126. 4 8 15 16 23 42 - June 5, 2010

Oh, look, it’s real acting. I really felt how furious Pike is, not just for formality’s sake, but because something serious happened… what Kirk does must be a doozy!

As for whether it’s too much, we’ll all have to see. I’ll say this, though: Pike is saving his ire for Kirk’s ears only; as livid as he is, he has saved it for a private meeting. It bespeaks a man who handles himself decorously, even when hot under the collar. That shows he is a true commander. That is what makes this scene all the more believable to me.

Colin Cunningham does a great job, IMO.

127. dan london - June 5, 2010

God…that was so bad it was painful!!!!

128. captain_neill - June 5, 2010

125

Its true its open to interpretation. I was thinking that some of Kirk’s dialogue with Spock in WNMHGB implies that they were just getting to know each other but then that’s pilot stuff.

129. Captain Power vs. Star Wars Prequels - June 5, 2010

- I still don’t like the new ‘Flower Power’ tendency..

130. Holger - June 5, 2010

To be honest, I’m not convinced. In the first two thirds of the dialogue, Pike acts like a drill instructor in boot camp. Hey, this is Starfleet! Pike is a starship captain! (I presume, “my ship”) I don’t see Pike as a hysterical choleric. Grumpy, maybe, but not that much over the top. And even Kirk, in the first three seasons of TOS, never behaved in this manner when he disciplined a crew member, even though Kirk is certainly much more extroverted than Pike.

131. Al - June 5, 2010

I find it a passable scene if you consider it as being Colonel Tom Parker chewing out the young Elvis for turning down Sun Records.

132. Dom - June 5, 2010

The acting in the scene had some real fireworks in a way I only wish we could have seen in proper Star Trek, but the editing and camerawork felt a bit off. I’m speaking as an editor myself.

Perhaps this is an early edit, but I really ***felt*** those cuts. They called attention to themselves and they shouldn’t have! The two-shot is too wide and very bland and the close ups don’t cut together with it at all well. Also, the scene is too long.

Still interesting effort and way above most amateur/semi-pro productions. Will be interested to see the final product.

133. Mark Lynch - June 5, 2010

For a rough scene I think that this was fine,I’m sure it will get tidied up in time.
As we don’t know the reason for the dressing down Kirk receives, we are in no position to say if Pike is over the top or not. Must be something pretty bad though.

Uniforms look fantastic. I fully expect the redressed bridge etc. to look similarly brilliant. As this is where Phase 2 really excels.

If Kirk is only around 16/17 in this scene, it is perfectly reasonable to see the anguish and upset in his face as he struggles to retain his demeanour while being screamed at by Pike. Do any of you complaining about this actually remember what it was like to be this age? Come on.

Mark out (of his mind)

134. scifib5st - June 5, 2010

Thanks Mr. Cawley for adding your insight to this story. You are right, we don’t know what happens before this clip. If you say DC Fontan wrote this, “they will come”.

135. James Cawley - June 5, 2010

#131- YAWN.
Personal attacks on my day job are so old… after 23 years I have heard it all.

136. VERG - June 5, 2010

I thought #131 was pretty funny personally. ;) I on the other hand, can’t wait to see the finished product. Trek on Cawley.

137. mikephys - June 5, 2010

Wow! What did Kirk do? It must have been really bad… like mooning the Tholian ambassador!!

138. Scott B. here. - June 5, 2010

Re: 119 – James, I have nothing but admiration for you and your crew, and what you all have been able to accomplish. My comments earlier in the thread challenging the notion of Kirk being an ass at the Academy are something I feel very strongly about, and were the primary (though not only) reason I thought the Abrams Trek was seriously flawed. They completely missed — actually willfully changed — what made the Kirk character who he really is.

I appreciate your writing what you did at #119 above. It’s clear that you care at least as deeply as any of us do about remaining faithful to the source material, while still telling an entertaining tale. In our defense, some of our reactions are based on a decontextualized scene that challenges some of our preconceptions (that Pike was a cool-headed guy, that Kirk and Pike had only a passing acquaintance prior to “Menagerie,” and my own bugaboo about Kirk being straight-laced as a young man). I’ll defer any further judgment, and I look forward to seeing the final product.

FWIW, I do think the performances are strong. I didn’t think Pike was necessarily “OOT” or “unhinged.” I’ve gotten that mad at my kids a time or two, and I’m one of the coolest cats I know. :-)

Scott B. out.

139. Balok - June 5, 2010

So far James has done a great job, so I’ll wait until I see the final product. Haven’t seen any updates lately on when other episodes are schedule to air. It would be nice to see projected air dates on Phase 2 web site, even if they are subject to change…

140. Kirk's Girdle - June 5, 2010

I would agree that Pike seemed to go a little overboard, more like a furious parent than a Starfleet Captain. I’ve been in Pike’s shoes quite a few times, but in his position, he probably wouldn’t feel the need to express such anger. Drill instructors are different. The yelling and abuse is part of their job to break new recruits down.

Still, always interesting to see what’s happening in the Cawley-verse.

141. Alec Peters - June 5, 2010

Well, having been here at the Star Trek: Phase II studio all week, I have to say how impressed I am with the passion that goes into the production. A few thoughts:

1) James Cawley is more critical of his own production than any other person in a similar role I know of. He is constantly striving to improve Phase II and bring in more professionals. Getting Colin Cunninghman to be Pike was a coup. You could just see the level of effort tick up a notch when Colin was performing. This is what James wants, to constantly improve the quality of the production.

2) James is the nicest Star Trek fan I have ever met. He is all about the passion and the love for Star trek. He brings everyone he can into his production and treats everyone like family. The guy is a class act. I have met few people in my life like James.

3) I was never a fan of fan films. I wince at some of the early New Voyages AS DOES JAMES. But the thing that gets me about Phase II is James and crew are trying to get better and better and not just talking a good game. They are walking the talk. They keep stepping up the game. I never thought I could get excited about a fan film, but wait till you see what is coming. It blew me away.

4) There are some major things happening on the business side of Phase II that will serve all of the above. James is very serious about taking this to the next level. He is not just some fan playing Star Trek. James is a professional entertainer, passionate Star Trek fan, and serious about making Phase II even bigger than it is.

Phase II is morphing into what “Of Gods and Men” claimed they were going to be and never delivered on, the first independent Star Trek production. And I know CBS likes what they see as I talk to them (the Propworx Star Trek auction in August is officially licensed by CBS so I know all the key people and they love what James is doing).

5) I have concerns about how Pike flew off the handle too! But we haven’t seen this in context. You should be enjoying he acting and not nit picking Pike’s emotional state. You don’t even know what is going on in the rest of the episode to warrant this, so be patient! The acting was AMAZING and these guys know how to edit. Be patient and wait till you see the results. Because everything else is as impressive as can be.

6) Canon is so important to James and I can tell you, that we constantly discuss what and where things happened. This all fits in perfectly.

So, take it from a convert, Phase II will blow your socks off in the coming months.

Alec Peters
CEO
Propworx

142. Dom - June 5, 2010

We’ve had too many years of rather tight-assed behaviour in the TNG-verse, so seeing a military officer bawling out a trainee for doing something wrong is something we’re not used to. Starfleet is a military organisation, so that sort of disciplinary action shouldn’t surprising!

While I’m sure the team are excited about this scene, it might have been better just to put out a teaser than to show this scene out of context!

143. epr - June 5, 2010

51 & 49 The whole scene commenced with Pike saying it happened in the transporter room.
May I suggest to all the ‘grups’ getting the angries, that they wait and see the finished episode?
I didn’t feel easy with the anger displayed by PIke either, but I know I can be pushed that far by certain situations, even though everyone that knows me, would be similarly shocked, by such a display.
I think the scene did drag on, but Mr Gerrold did that in Blood and Fire also and I like David Gerrold, I still have his book ‘The world of Star Trek’ which I kept along with Steven Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry’s ‘Making of Star Trek’ in which it was said that the Enterprise was constructed in Earth orbit.
We will never have a universally perfect Star Trek, but I think a little support to those that are trying wouldn’t be out of order?

144. S. John Ross - June 5, 2010

#92: “My suspicion is that no writer has been smart enough to come up with something cleverer than “Kirk wanted to win, so he hacked the program and made the test more to his liking.”

Aye. It wouldn’t be rocket science to come up with an unusual angle (in fact, one popped into my head just now that would work very nicely), though I do respect that the challenge of doing it _for the screen_ is that it must be clear to the audience and not hog up a lot of precious time in boggy exposition.

In the recent film, though, it gave us what is, for my money, the greatest quiet little moment of unintentional hilarity in the film, when the nameless tech guy (or student assistant or whatever) says “How did that kid beat your test?” when any sentient creature would have said, instead, “How did that kid hack your test?” It was very, very obvious that Kirk didn’t “beat” anything, he just installed (or had someone install) a “cheat code,” which is about as original as … well, insert your own joke here.

145. Driver - June 5, 2010

Awful in every respect. Didn’t believe it for a nanosecond.

146. www.chrisfawkes.com - June 5, 2010

I couldn’t watch all of that.

147. John Trumbull - June 5, 2010

Interesting, but I’d have to see it in context to properly judge it. I agree that the scene is overlong & could do with some editing, but watching young Kirk grow into the leader we know he’ll become is a fascinating concept. I have some doubts about the Shouty McShouterson Capt. Pike and young Kirk apparently being a rule breaker instead of the”positively grim” “stack of books with legs” that TOS said he was.

148. Dennis Bailey - June 5, 2010

#92: “My suspicion is that no writer has been smart enough to come up with something cleverer than “Kirk wanted to win, so he hacked the program and made the test more to his liking.”

The problem with the Kobyashi Maru scenario is that it was invented as backstory and works best as backstory. When dramatized, it runs into a real basic problem:

Kirk cheated on a test of his character.

This was clearly intended ironically, and frankly Trek doesn’t do irony worth a damn. It’s not in the Franchise DNA.

Orci and Kurtzman took the only tack that makes dramatic sense at the same time that it salvages Kirk as in any way an admirable character, and that was to suggest that he expected to be caught and in fact did what he did as a direct challenge to authority. He disapproved of the test and wanted to make a point.

If one takes the storytelling approach that Kirk intended even for a moment to *get away with cheating* on the test, then he’s a douche. Nothing more, nothing less.

IIRC, Peter David’s take on the incident was similar in that respect – that from the outset Kirk expected his trickery to be recognized as such.

149. C.S. Lewis - June 5, 2010

Why do almost all sci-fi actors trying to show their command or authority yell, spit, and lose their cool? I see it not only in summer stock and fan flick such as this, but in third rate television series such as the Trek spin-offs.

In real life, the servicemen and officers I know, especially those that saw combat at some point, almost never get upset. They “keep their cool” under all circumstances. Condescending? Yes. Angry? Sometimes. Upset about it? Never.

Flipping out is reserved for primal combat and … for girls.

Sincerely,
C.S. Lewis

150. Jonboc - June 5, 2010

That was a fun scene to watch. Not so sure the character of Pike would almost stroke out like that, but it is still a good scene. Hats off to the actors for bringing it home. I don’t watch new voyages, but I’ll give this episode a shot.

151. Montreal_Paul - June 5, 2010

Mr. Cawley, just wanted to say that I appreciate the hard work and dedication you have provided with your vision of Trek. It’s fun to watch and you bring the spirit of the original 60’s kitchiness to it too. Your stories are good too. Some of the acting is a little bad… not really a fan of Bones & Scotty in Phase II. But I did find the scene with Pike to be out of character and a little over the top. But I do get it – this is your version of Trek and your version of the characters. Just like JJ has his vision and his version of the characters. I respect both your work and still think there is enough room in the universe to both visions.
Thanks again for giving us Trek fans some new stories and episodes to watch. Keep on Trekkin’ !!

152. Dalek - June 5, 2010

I seem to recall in the episode “Court Martial” the Admiral getting pretty heated at Kirk when Kirk chose to defend his human rights. By that time Kirk was a decorated and successful starship Captain.

Pike talking to Kirk calmly would make for a very dull scene “Hey kid you screwed up, do better next time!” Boring! As yet we do not know the conflict that Kirk created, nor the repurcussions of his actions for Captain Pike.

I’m presuming the story will showcase Pike’s disapproval of Kirk, transforming into one of acceptance. If that’s the case they need to provide some serious conflict for our hero to rise above.

Brilliant cadet comes on board ship, is model officer, knows more than his superiors and saves the day should be reserved for Wesley Crusher, and we all know what we thought about that!!!

153. Al - June 5, 2010

149. Couldn’t have put it better myself.

154. essay - June 5, 2010

Kirk looked like he was about to cry!

That’s not Kirk – he would have stood there, taking the berating opus and appear impassive, if not bordering on arogant. He would have pull every strength he had to tighten that lip and hide the humiliation he was feeling.

I guess that’s why I enjoyed Chris Pine’s take on Kirk (even in the alternate reality) with his devil-may-care attitude that he had to have to become the starship captain we know and love.

155. S. John Ross - June 5, 2010

#148: “He disapproved of the test and wanted to make a point. If one takes the storytelling approach that Kirk intended even for a moment to *get away with cheating* on the test, then he’s a douche. Nothing more, nothing less.”

I agree that it’s necessary that Kirk did what he did to make a point about the test, and not to “get away with it,” but that’s an entirely _separate_ question from whether his methods were worthy of a commendation for original thinking, which is, as near as I can tell, what was being discussed.

156. Hugh Hoyland - June 5, 2010

Looks good to me, I wonder what kind of camera they were using to shoot that scene. I am a little puzzled by Pikes outburst though, it just doesnt seem in his style IMO. I picture Pike as being able to dress down a cadet easly without the rant, he wouldnt need it, his cool, yet angry demeanor would be more than enough to do the job. But as someone said its out of context so I’ll hold judgement until I can view the whole piece. Either way, Phase 2 is looking better each time.

157. Dennis Bailey - June 5, 2010

#155: “I agree that it’s necessary that Kirk did what he did to make a point about the test, and not to “get away with it,” but that’s an entirely _separate_ question from whether his methods were worthy of a commendation for original thinking, which is, as near as I can tell, what was being discussed.”

I’m suggesting that this is among the reasons the incident works better as backstory than in dramatic form – I’ve seen attempts to justify the commendation, and they ring hollow when not completely ridiculous.

158. AssKirk - June 5, 2010

#144: it was revealed in deleted scenes that Kirk had seduced Uhura’s Orion roommate Gaila to install the subroutine via a text message sent to her screen in the control room… Or rather tricked her into doing so by piggybacking a Trojan on the message saying that he loved her blah blah blah…

159. Trek Ahead - June 5, 2010

If I remember right, Kirk was a Lieutenant when described as a stack of books with legs. I don’t remember any references to him as a cadet other than in the episode “Shore Leave”.
Now for Captain Pike to dress Cadet Kirk down so harshly, doesn’t seem to me as over the top. When you take into consideration that in this scene, they are aboard Pike’s ship out in space. Now think for a moment how dangerous an environment the vacuum of space is to work in. Coupled with the Matter/Antimatter propulsion used, and how one simple mistake, or inappropriate behavior could cause the death of one, or all of the people on board.
Given those circumstances, I could see the Captain of a ship with a little more than four hundred crew members, dress down a cadet like that to make his point as to just how dangerous it is aboard a starship.
I can certainly imagine it having served in the military, and I have been dressed down in that manner more than once. It’s all about instilling discipline.
As this scene is out of context, it would be premature to judge too harshly.
I for one am a huge fan of Mr. Cawley’s work, and look forward to the release.
I will NEVER be a fan of J.J.’s Trek.

160. Dom - June 5, 2010

Now I know what this dressing down reminds me of . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYDTrRadNuc

161. Adam E - June 5, 2010

I think we sould all take a stab at what Kirk did to deserve this. My guess is that he used athority given to him by Pike and beamed up an Orian girl without permission.

162. S. John Ross - June 5, 2010

#157: “I’m suggesting that this is among the reasons the incident works better as backstory than in dramatic form – I’ve seen attempts to justify the commendation, and they ring hollow when not completely ridiculous.”

Fair enough. I certainly agree that, thus far, the [professional/official] attempts at portraying the event have fallen short in one way or another (and that, like the Necronomicon, it’s something best hinted-at rather than thrown into the spotlight).

163. Larry Talbot - June 5, 2010

@159: “If I remember right, Kirk was a Lieutenant when described as a stack of books with legs. I don’t remember any references to him as a cadet other than in the episode ‘Shore Leave’.”

I think you are incorrect. I think in “Where No Man Has Gone Before” Gary Mitchell says: “Hey man, I remember you back at the academy. A stack of books with legs.”

I would be surpised if the Phase II folks don’t know all the precise wording and exact canonicity of every word in every episode *far better* than the average Trek fans who watch their web-based episodes do.

164. Trek Ahead - June 5, 2010

@163

Yes but didn’t Mitchell also say later on in the episode, “In Lieutenant Kirk’s class you either think or sink?”

I also agree with you that if anyone is going to be as true to the original Trek canon, it will be James Cawley and his crew!

Keep on Trekkin Jim!

165. Al - June 5, 2010

159 – that’s not the point really. It isn’t an issue of how dangerous space (or land or sea) is, it’s a question of command and I don’t think West Point, Sandhurst or anywhere else teaches that SHOUTING is the way to inspire loyalty or correct subordinates. It’s a simple as that. No backstory or context in the episode can allow it – it’s a contradiction in terms, never mind a contradiction in canon.

I will allow it if Pike turns out to be possessed by a salt monster. Or has swapped genders with Janice Lester’s mom.

166. ken - June 5, 2010

thank you, James, for capping this oil leak of sticky bitchiness! for followers of such a progressive, open-minded series…. a lot of you come across as redneck bigots on these forums. why James would care enough about the fans to lend out a teaser in order to be ignorantly eviscerated over what-if speculation is beyond me. James… and the entire Phase II crew… has repeatedly more than delivered on this series! with that in mind, i look forward to Buck Rogers… and perhaps even a… post ST:TMP fan series(?) from him!

167. Larry Talbot - June 5, 2010

I think R. Lee Emery (“What is your major malfuction?!”) in Full Metal Jacket and Jack Nicholson (“You can’t handle the truth!”) in A Few Good Men were probably aliens, too. Why else would those characters have been yelling?

168. Holger - June 5, 2010

IMHO, if the shouting part of the dialogue is cut back in the final cut, it will be all right. I just think it’s over the top as it is now.

169. Coolrosetyler - June 5, 2010

Matthew looks amazing as Kirk and the clip is so brilliant, Thanks for showing

170. Trek Ahead - June 5, 2010

@ 165

You’ve obviously never been in the military, and have no understanding of discipline.

It drills home the point that you have to think as a team, and not as an individual.

NAVY duty is extremely dangerous. And so would be duty in space. In both areas of operation, you must have discipline.

But this is only a fictional story, and I digress.

171. Holger - June 5, 2010

170: And Starfleet isn’t quite a military organization.

172. Al - June 5, 2010

170 – I have associated with British and American officers which is exactly why I know that this depiction is nonsense. And the fact that it is fictional makes it worse, not better.

Not least because, in answer to 167 there’s a difference between being a Drill Sgt and being an officer. One reason officers have Sgts so they don’t have to SHOUT.

173. Al - June 5, 2010

Oh and Nicholson’s character in AFGM was a nutcase who was being court-martialled.

But I guess if Pike is being depicted as a nutcase, then it’s fine. I defer. Presumably he recovered and got out of the brig in time to command the Enterprise. Easy isn’t it, messing up the canon I mean.

174. Larry Talbot - June 5, 2010

@171 (and a lot of others):

Please, please, *please*: fund and produce and release an episode and *show* the Phase II folks how it’s supposed to be done. Their productions are always so wide of the TOS Star Trek mark. I think it’s time that someone who *really* knows Star Trek as much as you all do reach into your wallets, step up to the plate and get it done properly!

175. Larry Talbot - June 5, 2010

@173

Is “being a nutcase” the only reason officers might yell? I mean, you seem pretty knowledgable on how all officers behave–even fictional officers in a fictional service in a fictional future. There’s not even *one* possible reason that the writer of this episode seems to have envisioned that you haven’t conceived of?

176. StarFuryG7 - June 5, 2010

#119 Mr. Cawley
To be perfectly frank and blunt, I just can’t see Kirk quivering like that, even as a young cadet. We have our impressions of these iconic characters that dates back decades, and I can’t simply dismiss those impressions for a fan-based Webisode where I would also call the casting of these characters into question, and that has nothing to do with dismissing the work of David Gerrold either mind you. The sets are all great, you guys put a lot of work into these stories and shooting these episodes, but I’ve only watched a couple of them through the years, and that’s mainly because I don’t like the change and/or interpretations of the central characters that I see and how they are sometimes written and portrayed. You would have been better off going with a completely new cast of characters in my opinion because at least then people wouldn’t have anything to compare them to necessarily, hence, no harm no foul.

Just one man’s opinion of course.

177. StarFuryG7 - June 5, 2010

#118 Larry

Are you saying that a great deal of effort and expense would have gone completely unnoticed on the part of these Web filmmakers simply by virtue of their having created new, unknown characters set in the TOS universe?

I disagree –if anything, they might have gained even more attention in the media IMO, with their Webisodes drawing more of an audience also perhaps.

178. C.S. Lewis - June 5, 2010

Ken tells quite a lot about himself and the superiority of his Progressive (i.e., Bolshevik Socialist) ideology.

Sincerely,
C.S. Lewis

166. ken – June 5, 2010

thank you, James, for capping this oil leak of sticky bitchiness! for followers of such a progressive, open-minded series…. a lot of you come across as redneck bigots on these forums

179. C.S. Lewis - June 5, 2010

Maybe they act that way because they are … not real.

D’ya think?

Sincerely,
C.S. Lewis

167. Larry Talbot – June 5, 2010

I think R. Lee Emery (”What is your major malfuction?!”) in Full Metal Jacket and Jack Nicholson (”You can’t handle the truth!”) in A Few Good Men were probably aliens, too. Why else would those characters have been yelling?

180. Larry Talbot - June 5, 2010

@177

I’m not saying it would go completely unnoticed. I’m saying it would be *less* noticed.

I’m saying that I think in a sea of fan productions where viewers can today follow the adventures of the crews of the Starship Farragut and the Starship Exeter and the Starship Intrepid and the Starship Just-About-every-Friggin’-Thing, the thing that lands New Voyages/Phase II on the pages of Wired magazine and lands them Hugo Award nominations is enormous popularity of the characters in the source material. For every viewer who is really interested in the exploits of Captain Carter of the Farragut or Captain Garrovick of the Exeter, there are probably ten? fifty? one-hundred? viewers who are more interested in the further exploits of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.

My hunch is that if all other things were equal–if the “budget” were kept the same, the sets, costumes, props, sound, camera–everything–if they were all kep the same and Phase II decided to start telling the exciting adventures of the Starship Constitution with Captain Winter and his Vulcan first officer Mr. Salek with Dr. Milton Perry as the chief medical officer, no one would really give a crap and no one would watch, even if the show is just as “good” as it is now. (And by “no one” actually simply mean “not as many.”)

Plus, I don’t see that they would be able to bring in D.C. Fontana or David Gerrold or all the others that they have brought in. I mean, why aren’t more of those “big names” in Trek (the ones that are left that is), clammoring to help out with the Farragut and Exeter productions?

I’m not saying those a bad productions. I’m just saying not as many people care. Heck, my sense is it’s hard enough to get people to watch new episodes about the characters they already and know and care about. Why would people watch Trek-ish shows about strangers?

181. Larry Talbot - June 5, 2010

@179

Yes, they are fictional. Yet no one that I can recollect from when those movies were released said “Wow! Those military characters were so over the top and completely unbelievable and unrealistic.” I’m merely looking for an example of something to compare Pike to that everyone seems to have found plausible and believable and acceptable. If I knew some real non-fictional military folks who behaved in the manner that Pike does that we *all* know, I’d cite them instead. (I actually know plenty in my work with the Navy–but I was looking for someone we *all* know.)

***************

Maybe they act that way because they are … not real.

D’ya think?

Sincerely,
C.S. Lewis

167. Larry Talbot – June 5, 2010

I think R. Lee Emery (”What is your major malfuction?!”) in Full Metal Jacket and Jack Nicholson (”You can’t handle the truth!”) in A Few Good Men were probably aliens, too. Why else would those characters have been yelling?

182. StarFuryG7 - June 5, 2010

#180
“Phase II”, which started out as “New Voyages”, were actually the pioneers for amateur Web-based episodes set in the TOS universe I believe, which is why they received buzz and media attention in the first place. James Cawley has actually produced these stories by making significant personal investments in each episode they set out to do. The others that you mentioned, many of which I hadn’t even heard of previously, are simply not produced with the same effort with the same kinds of budgets –at least I don’t believe so anyway.

As for why Phase II may be bringing in the kind of talent from the original series that you mentioned –while I’m sure these are labors of love also on the part of these writers, that also probably has something to do with money as well; something that the other amateur TOS-era based productions cannot afford to do either, therefore they don’t get people like Dorothy Fontana and David Gerrold. Cawley on the other hand had set out from the beginning to make and leave a mark of his own, and he was prepared to come up with the necessary funds, out of his own pocket and otherwise, in order to do just that.

Other amateur productions, or New Voyages/Phase II could have drawn attention to themselves initially by including stories that featured Kirk, Spock, McCoy and/Scotty as well as the others at the beginning just in order to get things going while also starting out with completely new and different characters that those Web-based shows would have featured regularly afterward. However, I can’t watch Phase II even when it features George Takei as Sulu or Walter Koenig as Chekov (have seen a few scenes, but not their entire episodes by the way) because the other actors surrounding them are playing traditional roles of the accompanying longstanding characters and I simply can’t deal with that.

Again, just one man’s opinion, but if Phase II wasn’t supposed to be about Kirk, Spock and the rest of the gang I know so well and have watched for a very, very long time, I might actually watch these new Webisodes. As things stand, however, I simply can’t –I know, I’ve tried in the past, and I end up just giving up because it’s not what I expect or am accustomed to with respect to those characters.

183. Majicou - June 5, 2010

Message for the guy playing Pike: William Shatner, BRIAN BLESSED, Gerard Butler, and Norio Wakamoto all called to say they think you’re overdoing it. Also, the owner of a major shipping company wanted to know if he could have his freighters go through your pauses.

I’m really surprised the scene didn’t feature this exchange:
KIRK
Sir, this is a bit excessive.
PIKE
Excessive? [30-second pause] THIS! IS! STARFLEET!

184. Larry Talbot - June 5, 2010

@182

Well, when it comes to the TOS universe, I think the Starship Exeter fan-production beat New Voyages to the punch by a couple of years. They only seemed to get very limited public attention and little acclaim. When New Voyages came along, well, people started to take notice of that (like articles in Wired magazine). When the Starship Farragut production started, the New Voyages cast did a brief Kirk/Spock/McCoy cameo appearance to help get Farragut on its feet. (“Good luck Captain Carter with all your exciting Farragut adventures that lay ahead!”) So Starship Exeter had first mover advantage and yet they still don’t seem to have the popularity of Phase II; you evidently haven’t heard of them. Starship Farragut had a Kirk/Spock/McCoy sendoff and yet they still don’t seem to have the popularity of Phase II; you evidently haven’t heard of them either.

I understand the notion that you don’t like Phase II *because* of their “Kirk,” “Spock,” “McCoy” and the rest. They tromp on your memories of Trek and are just a bunch of pretenders and you won’t watch because of that. But the other side of the coin is those various other faux “Star Trek” fan shows that try to be Star Trek-ish *without* those characters: from a strict numbers/viewers stadpoint, I believe the “we want fake Star Trek *with* our same old characters as best as you can pull off” viewers far outnumber the “we want fake Star Trek *without* the old Trek characters using other characters from the Trek universe” viewers.

I see all kinds of people weighing in on this forum and others whenever Phase II releases anything. Phase II articles consistently get more comments than any other subject. It certainly does engender lots of passions. I think that’s a good thing. Is Phase II good? Are they bad? I don’t know–but they certainly are relevant and a force to be reckoned with.

185. Larry Talbot - June 5, 2010

@182:

So your notion is that David Gerrold, D.C. Fontana, and Jon Povill would much prefer to tell exciting, compelling stories about Captain Garrovick and Commander Harris and the rest of the Exeter gang but it’s just not lucrative enough for them? Phase II makes it lucrative enough for them that they are grudingly willing to tell Kirk, Spock, and McCoy stories when they would much rather be writing for some other Trek-ish characters if only those other productions could come up with the funds to afford these writing professionals? Am I understanding you correctly?

I don’t know the inner workings of Phase II, but I’d be surprised if the money Mr. Cawley and his producing team can scrape up is all *that* much of a motivator for the writers–or any of the other hundreds of production people that seem to give of their time and talents.

**************************’

As for why Phase II may be bringing in the kind of talent from the original series that you mentioned –while I’m sure these are labors of love also on the part of these writers, that also probably has something to do with money as well; something that the other amateur TOS-era based productions cannot afford to do either, therefore they don’t get people like Dorothy Fontana and David Gerrold. Cawley on the other hand had set out from the beginning to make and leave a mark of his own, and he was prepared to come up with the necessary funds, out of his own pocket and otherwise, in order to do just that.

186. Dalek - June 5, 2010

#Captain Neill a fair observation. It could be Kirk and Spock had a dysfunctional relationship prior to serving with each other and the chess game was Kirk’s way of trying to get to know him.

Not sure how Gene Roddenberry would feel about the notion of Kirk knowing Spock prior to Where No Man, but I heard he hated the script that Harve Bennett wrote about their days in the academy! Could have just been a very bad script!

187. BLFSisko - June 5, 2010

Kirk must have done something really baaaaaaaaaaaad!!!

188. Dalek - June 5, 2010

The vehement reaction to a clip that can’t yet be put into context story wise, is very indicative of the online star trek community, as is the justification of unkind and sometimes cruel comments towards fellow fans who have something unique to offer. I would seriously hope James and the Phase 2 Production team know that those who shout the loudest are often in the minority, and those who love and appreciate what they have to offer will always support their endeaver and give the benefit of the doubt until the finished product surfaces.

Some people bring up valid reactions to the clip based on their love for the characters. But a fair few are using this as an excuse to be unkind to the Phase 2 team, as always. Let’s wait until the full episode is online, and if Pike’s reaction has no dramatic reasoning, then everyone will be in a better position to dissect rationally and with reason.

Something to think about: If the only clip of the latest Trek movie was Kirk provoking Spock into hitting him, how many of us would protest that Kirk was not in character? Knowing the backstory and context is everything!!! (and for those saying different universe, Kirk wouldn’t have done that in the Prime, I refer you to This Side of Paradise — its exactly what Kirk would have done)! :D

189. Dennis Bailey - June 5, 2010

#188:”Something to think about: If the only clip of the latest Trek movie was Kirk provoking Spock into hitting him, how many of us would protest that Kirk was not in character?”

I’d say “well, they saw ‘This Side Of Paradise,’ anyway.” LOL

190. Dalek - June 5, 2010

#189 Yeah lol I enjoyed your intepretation on the Kobiashi Maru Dennis. I had never thought of it that way before and makes perfect sense. And thinking of it as Kirk challenging authority and wanting to get caught for it, overshadows my original disappointment with the scene.

191. Balok - June 5, 2010

by the way, good move by James to post something that would create a controversial buzz…

192. Larry Talbot - June 5, 2010

@188:

I think you’re right on all counts. I remember back when “Amok Time” was screened at the 1967 Worldcon–*before* the episode was aired as the Second Season opener. Following the con, as word spread in the Trek community (such as it was back in 1967) that Mr. Spock was being portrayed as being violent and that Vulcans were shown to be a violent people who have ancient barbaric customs, “fans” who were “knowledgable” about Mr. Spock and Vulcans were all worked up that the producers of Star Trek clearly didn’t understand that Vulcans were actually logical, unemotional, peaceful people. “How can the producers get Spock and Vulcans so wrong?! What are they thinking?”

So, people weighing in and believing that they are so completely knowledgable about all things Star Trek–despite the fact that they actually don’t “know” as much as they do isn’t really new in Trek fandom. I think it’s been around pretty much since day one.

It must be frustrating for Mr. Cawley and the entire Phase II team to come up with anything entertaining for Star Trek fans to watch when so many fans alreaday know it all.

193. The Sisko - June 5, 2010

We could call it the “Sluggo-Verse”, or the “Abrahms-Sphere of Influence” LOL

194. William - June 5, 2010

Paramont should hire Cawley and crew to do the next tv show. These guys are great. I hope that they are one day able to sell these episodes on dvd. Keep up the good work.

195. www.chrisfawkes.com - June 5, 2010

@107
That demonstrates the difference between quality script writing and…

Picard’s power came from the quality of his questioning. Pike in the scene here is just ranting.

That is why this look very amateur.

Good on Cawley and others for what they do but let’s be real, it is what it is.

196. StarFuryG7 - June 6, 2010

#184
I have heard of Starship Exeter, and their initial outing was lackluster to say the least. I also believe that at the time they released that episode that it had taken them 7 years to finally produce it. The writing was clearly substandard and inferior, and I’ll never forget the eternal scar I bear from when the finger puppet appeared on screen as one of the cheesy special effects shots. Say what you will about the outdated FX on TOS, but they were never that bad. All the money on that production went toward sets and uniforms obviously, and since it took them as long as it did to produce that first episode, it kind of makes my point about their not having the resources of Phase II by comparison, so naturally they’re not going to get as noticed or as much media attention as Phase II gets, since the latter has so much more to work with. I remember the Sulu episode of Phase II being featured in a small piece in TV Guide, and that obviously never would have happened had George Takei not been signed on to do an episode for them.

I’ve heard of the Farragut series also by the way, although I’m not sure whether or not I’ve caught any of those productions since I don’t pay much attention to the fan-made stuff.

As for your point about fans wanting to see fan made productions because they deal with the original characters, frankly I just don’t see the point since it’s not sanctioned and not recognized as official material. The novels fall into that category also, and I used to read them many years back periodically, but when you know it’s not something deemed to have happened and not sanctioned as authorized and therefore official, it kind of defeats the whole purpose of even watching it if you ask me.

197. StarFuryG7 - June 6, 2010

185. Larry
“So your notion is that David Gerrold, D.C. Fontana, and Jon Povill would much prefer to tell exciting, compelling stories about Captain Garrovick and Commander Harris and the rest of the Exeter gang but it’s just not lucrative enough for them?”

I think Cawley and Phase II are paying them to produce something along the lines of what they want for Phase II, don’t you? If they were getting compensation that was equally appealing to produce something for a Garrovick story, if that’s what the producers wanted, I think they’d be willing to do that too, don’t you? They’re writers after all.

“I don’t know the inner workings of Phase II, but I’d be surprised if the money Mr. Cawley and his producing team can scrape up is all *that* much of a motivator for the writers–or any of the other hundreds of production people that seem to give of their time and talents.”

Whatever compensation George Takei and Walter Koenig received for appearing in episodes of Phase II, I’d say it was probably enough to satisfy them wouldn’t you?

And where are the guys who produce Exeter and Farragut respectively going to pull together funds like that in order to score that kind of talent for their Web episodes? They’re made on shoe-string budgets by comparison obviously.

198. WJT - June 6, 2010

Well, blow me over with a feather. I’ve always enjoyed Phase II’s work, but I’ve been very critical of their actors since forever. I once put Jim Cawley’s acting prowess on par with a bar of soap, which was read by a member of the Phase II production team, which ended up causing a small fracas in one tiny corner of the internet.

So I’m impressed with this scene. The two actors are professionals, and it shows. A lot. Acting like this is very rare in the fan-film ‘verse, and seeing it from two people in the same scene is just terrific. I honestly don’t understand what all the carping is about in this thread. It’s a solid scene in any universe. In the universe of low-budget, often low-quality fan productions, this scene is downright fantastic.

Perhaps what we have here is a fandom that is (1) imagining fanon into canon, again (which is no surprise, since the fandom did the same throughout the *entire* production cycle of Star Trek XI), (2) judging the characters’ actions without any context, and (3) genuinely prejudiced against fan productions of any sort. As someone who has been very hard on certain aspects of Phase II (and got paid to do it!), that’s really all I can come up with.

199. Buzz Cagney - June 6, 2010

I am honestly surprsed that people feel they have seen enough Pike over the years to presume to understand how he would behave in any given situation.
The guy is pretty much a closed book to my mind. Free to be taken in any direction they should choose.
Jame’s and gang, keep on doing what you are doing. And as long as the fans are talking its all good. ;-)

200. Al - June 6, 2010

175 – No I can’t. But more to the point, I’d bet you Gene Roddenberry couldn’t imagine it either. But what did he know…

201. Al - June 6, 2010

197 – From their imdb pages Fontana, Gerrold and Povill don’t exactly seem to be getting much work elsewhere

202. Smike - June 6, 2010

HORRIBLE! I’ve always enjoyed New Voyages / Phase II but this scene simply isn’t Star Trek. Pike behaves like one of those war movie a**holes. The way he trets Kirk is simply not the way I want things handled in the Trek universe…You cannot shout “on my ship, my ship…” like that when you are on the ENTERPRISE…NOPE! I would quit Starfleet immediately if I where Kirk. This is not Vietnam and even back then I would have rather been executed than letting a cr*phole treat me like that! I hate that kind of miliary stuff and Starfleet shouldn’t reflect that kind of militarism. Sorry, but this seems to be utter nonsense…

203. Alec Peters - June 6, 2010

188. Dalek – June 5, 2010

“The vehement reaction to a clip that can’t yet be put into context story wise, is very indicative of the online star trek community, as is the justification of unkind and sometimes cruel comments towards fellow fans who have something unique to offer. I would seriously hope James and the Phase 2 Production team know that those who shout the loudest are often in the minority, and those who love and appreciate what they have to offer will always support their endeaver and give the benefit of the doubt until the finished product surfaces.

Some people bring up valid reactions to the clip based on their love for the characters. But a fair few are using this as an excuse to be unkind to the Phase 2 team, as always. Let’s wait until the full episode is online, and if Pike’s reaction has no dramatic reasoning, then everyone will be in a better position to dissect rationally and with reason.

Something to think about: If the only clip of the latest Trek movie was Kirk provoking Spock into hitting him, how many of us would protest that Kirk was not in character? Knowing the backstory and context is everything!!! (and for those saying different universe, Kirk wouldn’t have done that in the Prime, I refer you to This Side of Paradise — its exactly what Kirk would have done)! :D”

Thank you! EXACTLY!

I don’t think James Cawley and company are doing this for the couple dozen critics on this message board. They do it for the love of TOS Star Trek and the 4 million+ fans who download every episode.

I saw a clip by two talented PROFESSIONAL actors and loved it. I am not going to nit-pick an out-of-context clip. And yes, I have to roll my eyes sometimes at what my fellow fans seem to say.

And much of the success of Phase II is the ability of Cawley to put together a team of volunteers (NO ONE gets paid, not even David Gerrold) who love working together. The set is more professional than any fan film and Cawley and company put out episodes on a regular basis, not once every 3 years.

The acting keeps getting better. There are more professionals on the set every episode, and the guys how play Scotty and Bones keep getting better. I was as big a critic as anyone, but think they keep learning this craft and it shows. Their performances in the episodes in post are better and better.

In fact the two guys who play those roles are pretty harsh on themselves and are really motivated to keep getting better and they work hard at it. They want you guys to be happy with what they do. Believe me, they know they need to be better! How many of you re as committed to getting better and better at what you do for a living let alone something you volunteer at? Yeah, I thought so.

And yes, people care about Kirk, Spock,McCoy. People have a hard time caring about characters that they rarely see. Phase II has a huge advantage there. We WANT to see these characters.

Ultimately I have to say to James, there are millions of people who love this show. Just keep improving and you are doing this better than anyone out there.

Alec

204. James Cawley - June 6, 2010

LOL. Most of the folks who are have issues with the scene are so far off in their judgments and speculations it is amusing to me.

We have seen nothing of Captain Pike in the prime universe except ONE mission, and in that he had just returned from a very exhausting, devastating mission on Rigel, which forced him to re examine his choice of command.
Jeff Hunter was supposed to be low key in that story as Pike was worn out by the strain of command. He then has to to face yet another mission.

Pike has a broad wide open canvas in the prime universe.

Remember “CANON” is only what is seen and heard on screen.
If you listen to “The Menagerie” carefully Commodore Mendez asks Kirk if he has ever met Chris Pike. Kirk’s response ‘I met him when he was promoted to Fleet Captain, Spock served with him for several years.”
No where in “CANON” does it ever say Kirk met him when he took over command from Pike. That is simply speculation, and fans filling in the blanks, without actually paying attention to what was really said in the episode.

To those who say Kirk would not be rattled by a dressing down, Bull!
This is a kid who is a “stack of books with legs”, He is so driven to be the best that at times he can be rash, and impulsive. Leap without looking some times.
This scene has absolutely nothing to do with The Kobayashi Maru!!
so I find all that speculation to be hillarious. Stop and think about what has been established about Kirk at that age, what his goal in life is, and then remember HE IS A YOUNG KID HERE. Now mix in some personal scenario where his personal stake is so high that he would violate the chain of command and you will understand the context of the scene. Pike also knows his Father as evidenced in the scene, and knows this kids potential, this is not some average Cadet and he sure would never let him get away with anything but what a Starfleet Cadet/officer should do by the book, no matter the personal cost. may be.

My story choices are valid and grounded in canon.
Over the years, I have heard and listened to my fellow fans and their criticisms and suggestions. I work hard to produce these, and each time I demand that my crew work to be better than the last. I feel we do just that and so do so many others around the world, who come and see me at cons, post on line and download these episodes.

Star Trek Lives because of its fans, all of us. not just a few of us.
LL&P,
James

205. Dalek - June 6, 2010

#192 Larry that’s an interesting anecdote re: Amok Time. I guess it shows just how passionate people felt towards the characters and universe even back! And how people with passion can be too quick to leap where angels fear to tread :D

I guess I’m a little guilty of judging aspects of the recent movie too harshly before I saw it (my major nitpick was the Corvette scene, and I’m on here telling everyone Kirk couldn’t drive shift stick in Piece of The Action). If only I’d have known the context at the time!

#203 Alec some really good points. You seem to be able to judge it on its merits and recognise aspects that are improving and can be improved. I really enjoy what these guys do. They do it for free and they do it for the love, and they show us that love by releasing them online. And they involve professional actors and production personnel who show they love Star Trek enough to work for the love of it too.

#204 Well said. Thanks for all your hard work and effort James, it does not go unappreciated!

206. BAILY - June 6, 2010

well Mr. Cawley, if people care enough here to critique this scene from your work then you’ve proven Star Trek is still alive because of ‘us all’

Out of context ANY scene from anything doesn’t make alot of sense and I won’t lie, this scene didn’t REALLY make sense to me so hopefully when we see the episode.

As a big Pike fan, I’m curious to see what young Jim Kirk did to deserve that kind of smack down ..lol. It did seem over the top to me, like it did to others but again, we are seeing this out of context so it’s easy to nitpick it

And I agree with others too.. the quality of the show increases with every episode, keep up the great work!!

207. Al - June 6, 2010

It has nothing to do with the performances Alec, it’s the script.

208. Larry Talbot - June 6, 2010

@200:

I remember that early scene from Gene Roddenberry’s story treatment for “The Cage” where Captain April/Pike is in the shuttle bay seeing off a number of badly-wounded crewmen. Also among the crewmen leaving the ship is an *uninjured* officer whom April/Pike is sending back to Earth in disgrace. It turns out the officer had fired on friendly aliens. The officer argued that they were monstrous in appearance, so how could he be expected to know that they were intelligent enough to have had weapons? The furious April/Pike wants none of the officers explanations and the officer’s protests are met by the captain’s angry and stern dismissal:

APRIL: “Get off my ship, Mister!”

It looks like Gene Roddenberry can indeed imagine a firey-eyed April/Pike going all out on a junior officer. Other than this early scene, I don’t think we ever saw enough of Pike to see what kind of dressing down he’d give a junior officer or a cadet. But it doesn’t look like the Phase II folks (writer, director, or actors) are going out on much of a limb; they seem to be relying on good original Trek source material..

Those who have seen Jeff Hunter in “King of Kings” know the kind of firey-eyed angry and passionate character he can play. I think that’s probably exactly why he was cast as Pike. I’m thinking of the line “Do you want me to test my theory out on your head?” It looks like the writing and directing and acting of this scene are more like true Star Trek and true Captain Pike than the more run-of-the-mill fans realize.

*******
200. Al – June 6, 2010

175 – No I can’t. But more to the point, I’d bet you Gene Roddenberry couldn’t imagine it either. But what did he know…

209. Weerd1 - June 6, 2010

You all may have forgotten that Starfleet is a military organization; it doesn’t matter how nice a guy you are, when a subordinate really screws up you may need to lay into them. Indeed, as an officer I’ve laid into people in a far worse manner than I really felt about their mistake, because sometimes it’s how you get a subordinate back on the right course of action.

I have to assume Mr. Cawley and crew are doing the right thing here. Most of the reactions in this thread are remarkably similar to the reactions to the trailer to JJTrek. That turned out pretty damn well. We seems to react poorly whenever someone challenges our interpretations of how a character or characters SHOULD have been before. See it all in context, then judge for yourself.

210. Larry Talbot - June 6, 2010

@ 204:

Mr. Cawley: It occurs to me that you could probably write a scene showing Kirk’s birth and “fans” would say “That’s not the Kirk I know. Kirk would never cry and squall like that. He’s behaving like a baby!”

I agree wit you: expecting a seventeen year old Kirk to be “34-year-old Kirk-like” might be unreasonable.

I remember Kirk’s line from “Court Martial:” This was not my first crisis. It was one of many.” I wonder if you are going to be showing us one of those early crises.

211. No Khan - June 6, 2010

Do these guys have jobs?

212. Hugh Hoyland - June 6, 2010

James do you know what camera Gerrold was using when he shot that?

213. Protovulcan - June 6, 2010

Gerrold did a great job on the writing. Imagine Jeffrey Hunter delivering these lines.

214. Nick Cook - June 6, 2010

Wish I could say I’m surprised by some of the excessive criticism of what’s basically (as I understand it) a very quick rough cut, but I’m not. Which is not to say there isn’t some fair criticism in there either, but then again it is a *rough* cut, and I’d wager nobody has actually mentioned anything the producers themselves aren’t already aware of.

Keep doing what you do James. Plenty of people appreciate it.

215. Scott B. here. - June 6, 2010

I know Pike is a compelling character to want to revisit, but I have to wonder if this thread would be over 200, sometimes heated, posts long if the captain in the scene were the captain of the Republic, where Kirk served as an ensign. Just a thought.

Then again … over 200 posts! Score!!! :-D

Scott B. out.

216. Phil - June 6, 2010

Boy, a lot of ink is being spilled….the fan productions drip with something, all right, but it’s not passion. After looking at this clip I went back and checked a few of the other videos, and I stand by my assesment, they reek!! Self serving dreck to prop up some part-time actors ego. It’s great that these things have someone with more money then sense backing them up, I suppose, but seriously, isn’t there better use for this money elsewhere?

217. StarFuryG7 - June 6, 2010

198. WJT
“Well, blow me over with a feather. I’ve always enjoyed Phase II’s work, but I’ve been very critical of their actors since forever. I once put Jim Cawley’s acting prowess on par with a bar of soap, which was read by a member of the Phase II production team, which ended up causing a small fracas in one tiny corner of the internet.”

One of the things that has also turned me off to Phase II productions is that Cawley has totally miscast himself as Kirk, in addition to his not being a good actor, so the two combined only makes for a horrible mix. To me it’s like nails screeching across a chalkboard, and who wants to subject him or herself to that kind of punishment if it can be easily avoided by simply not watching?

“So I’m impressed with this scene. The two actors are professionals, and it shows. A lot.”

My impression of the scene is that it wasn’t bad for a first or second take, and the guy cast as Pike is a professional actor and he comes across that way, even if his performance there is a little over-the-top. But again, for a first or second take to warm up and get the feel of what the scene is shooting for, it wasn’t that bad. The problem is that the actor playing Pike is again miscast however, in addition to looking a little older for the part than he should be here even though he’s not much older than Jeffrey Hunter was when he played the role back in 1966.

218. StarFuryG7 - June 6, 2010

204. James Cawley
“To those who say Kirk would not be rattled by a dressing down, Bull!”

I don’t know about the others here, but I know what I said, and that was that I can’t see Kirk quivering like that even as a cadet. That’s not to say that he wouldn’t show signs of being somewhat rattled in a situation like that (which I haven’t otherwise judged by the way, since I don’t know the full context about the incident that landed him there), but trembling like a baby despite the fact that he was “a stack of book with legs,” sorry, but I just don’t see it. That’s simply not the Kirk I know.

“My story choices are valid and grounded in canon.”

I wonder what Roddenberry would say about some of them if he were still around.

…Just sayin’, dude.

219. Dennis Bailey - June 6, 2010

#216: ” It’s great that these things have someone with more money then sense backing them up, I suppose, but seriously, isn’t there better use for this money elsewhere?”

It’s our money, and only our opinions about what’s the “best use” of it matter.

220. Larry Talbot - June 6, 2010

@218:

I remember reading in “The Making of Star Trek” about how Gene Roddenberry had received a character analysis from William Shatner all about Kirk and how Shatner was envisioning the character. Gene wrote a memo to Story Editor John D.F. Black about Shatner’s write up of the Kirk character.

“I find missing here [in Shatner's character analysis] the character flaws and weaknesses we need to fully round out the character. We need some comments on the self-doubts, the moments of pettiness, the attention to the materiality of his career, etc.”

I also remember that the “Evil” half of Kirk gets scared and cries. Like McCoy said about the Evil Kirk: “For you see, he was afraid and you weren’t.”

So it *is* the Kirk I know. (Well, *half* the Kirk I know at any rate.)

I agree with the Phase II team: I assume Kirk cried when he was a little baby and wasn’t reading when he emerged from his mother’s wound. But he had stopped being so emotional and had become a “stack of books with legs” sometime by the time of “Where No Man Has Gone Before.” I think those who think this changeover could not have happened when Kirk was seventeen years old and at the Academy don’t have much of a foundation for their attack. I want to see how he *became* the Kirk I know–the Alexander the Great/Horatio Hornblower/Stack of books with legs. He wasn’t just born that way, was he? That would be Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

221. Al - June 6, 2010

Kirk would smirk.

222. red dead ryan - June 6, 2010

#216 and other fan production bashers and haters:

Why don’t you troll somewhere else? James Cawley and co. put a lot of time, energy and money into producing something for us fans to enjoy FOR FREE. The production values for “Phase II” is outstanding. The storytelling is excellent as well. Their production is an example of money well spent.

And to those bashing James and co.’s acting, what do you want? The original actors as how they appeared 45 years ago? If that is the case, just stick to watching your dvds. Certainly no one will replace the TOS cast, and even James will admit that, but their skills are good enough to pull it off. Which is good enough for me. And should be good enough for you.

As for the Pike/Kirk scene, I agree that we need to watch the entire episode before we judge it. And there is nothing in canon that states why Kirk and Pike can’t act the way they did in the clip. I just think that a lot of people can’t help but nitpick and tear apart something because of their own pettiness and perhaps jealousy.

223. New Horizon - June 6, 2010

I liked the scene, and am looking forward to the full episode. :)

While I don’t agree that the acting was ‘bad’..it wasn’t…I did find the actors chose to ‘telegraph’ the scene a bit too much. Pike is certainly capable of losing his cool, we saw him do it in the unaired pilot, but I think the actor could have pulled back on the performance a bit and internalized that anger a bit more. Same for Kirk’s expressions…they were a bit too much. They don’t need to be quite so big on camera.

Just acting choices though…perhaps there are some alternate scenes that could be slipped in that are a little more subtle.

Anyway…liked it. :)

224. daryl bowlin - June 6, 2010

Kirk’s history as far as canon is concerned is that he was an overly serious cadet at the academy where because of that serious demeanor he was made the butt of the pranks by the upper-classman Finnegan. He did have a friend there in 1 of the instructor’s Lt. Finney. After graduating with an Ensign’s commission he & Finney were assigned to the Republic under Capt. Garrovick but when Kirk follows regs & reports an oversight Finney made that ends that friendship. Later when Garrovick is transfered to command of the Farragut he brings Kirk with him who is promoted to Lt. at the time & it is then that he 1st commands a survey mission on Tyree’s World. Unfortunately, later comes the mission on Tycho IV & the blood sucking cloud creature that kills Garrovick & half of the Farraguts crew with Kirk being the only 1 to be face-to-face with it & live causing the XO to put Kirk in for a commendation. Then Kirk is assigned as an instructor at the academy where he befriends cadet Gary Mitchell, in spite of his reputation as a tough instructor, & through Mitchell meets Carol Marcus. The period between his time as an instructor & his command of the Enterprise is a complete blank. As has been pointed out he met Pike once, but no one knows when that took place. Admittedly his reprogramming the Kobayashi Maru simulation to beat it does sound out of character. And we now know that Kirk was greatly influenced by his father in his choice of career & it must have been a very proud day for him when his dad was there to see him take command of the Enterprise. I like Mr. Cawley’s work & I think that he’s very respectful of what’s come before, moreso than the studio sometimes.

225. KofN - June 6, 2010

Lame. Who cares about what happens, this guy is too nerdy to play Kirk.

226. StarFuryG7 - June 6, 2010

#220. Larry
“I remember reading in “The Making of Star Trek” about how Gene Roddenberry had received a character analysis from William Shatner all about Kirk and how Shatner was envisioning the character. Gene wrote a memo to Story Editor John D.F. Black about Shatner’s write up of the Kirk character.
“I find missing here [in Shatner's character analysis] the character flaws and weaknesses we need to fully round out the character. We need some comments on the self-doubts, the moments of pettiness, the attention to the materiality of his career, etc.” ”

Shatner had a more idealized view of Kirk than did Roddenberry apparently, but of course, Shatner was the one playing the role, so he’s entitled to put forth and have his own interpretation of the character oviously.

And we did see flaws in Kirk’s character over the course of the series, subtle and otherwise.

“I also remember that the ‘Evil’ half of Kirk gets scared and cries. Like McCoy said about the Evil Kirk: “For you see, he was afraid and you weren’t.”
So it *is* the Kirk I know. (Well, *half* the Kirk I know at any rate.)”

You’re attempting to draw a comparison to the most primitive, baser instinct _primeval_ side of Kirk that was ripped from him in “The Enemy Within” to the Phase II scene linked to above with cadet Kirk, and to me that just simply does not fly for the obvious reason that half of the character does not constitute the whole man. The animal Kirk we saw in that episode did not have an ego –at least not a fully constituted one as we saw the rest of the time when he was his full, complete self. And cadet Kirk would no more get drunk and attempt to brutally rape a fellow cadet than the fully grown, adult Kirk would another Starfleet officer, or anyone for that matter.

“I agree with the Phase II team”

Well, that’s obvious, and you’re attempting to provide cover for them with the example you chose to cite, but it’s simply not a good one obviously, and if there’s one thing I reject, it’s the idea of Kirk being able to rise to the level of Starship Captain–one of the brashest and boldest Starfleet had ever seen–at as young of an age as he managed to achieve that promotion despite having been a quivering crybaby supposedly as a cadet.

227. StarFuryG7 - June 6, 2010

222. red dead ryan
“And to those bashing James and co.’s acting, what do you want? The original actors as how they appeared 45 years ago?”

Would you say that–strictly from a casting standpoint–Cawley fits the role of Kirk, or is that rather a terrible miscasting of the character? Putting aside the fact that Cawley is not a professional actor, even though he has acting experience at this point, just consider for a moment the difference between his being cast in that role versus Chris Pine in the most recent movie — Which strikes you as having gotten it ‘right’?

And I have issues with what was done by the writers in ST09, but the actor they chose to play Kirk wasn’t one of them.

228. Larry Talbot - June 6, 2010

@ 226:

I think we heard the same arguments about actors from George Lazenby, through Roger Moore and all the others, up to and including Daniel Craig in the parade of Bonds: “Doesn’t he seem hilariously miscast following in the footsteps of the definitve James Bond, Roger Moore?”

I think most people are perfectly capable of separating the characters themselves from the actors who temporarily inhabit the roles. Certainly Star Trek fans have already had to do that for Lieutenant Saavik.

229. Larry Talbot - June 6, 2010

@ 226 Oops. The definitive James Bond: Sean Connery.

230. Desstruxion - June 6, 2010

Cool scene. The acting and production value is getting better. I like the fact also that professional actors are getting into fan made Trek more and more. I think that Paramount should authorize a web series and pay Mr. Cawley to produce it. That’s probably gonna be the future of tv entertainment anyway. Just my 2 cents.

231. Phil - June 6, 2010

Tens of thousands, if not more, turn out for American Idol tryouts, because if you ask each and every one of them, they all have talent and are just waiting to be discovered. I’m a fan of the show, not fans of fans who think they could do better, so I make no apologies for casting a critical eye when something his hoisted off as Trek when it’s really just a binch of adunts who happen to have the means to pull of their version of “rock and roll fantasy camp”. For all you guys who enjoy this, have fun, but when you drag this crap out and compare it to the professional product, please don’t be to shocked when someone asks…”you’re kidding, right??” Kinda like expecting your local HS drama club to be just as good as Broadway…..

232. Buzz Cagney - June 6, 2010

#229
As Sally says in Third Rock from the Sun ‘isn’t it weird not having Timothy Dalton playing Bond’. lol.
Connery don’t do it for my money.
And as PhaseII is largely Cawleys money (as I understand it) then he can play whoever he wishes. Whether you like it or not.

233. Austin J - June 6, 2010

Yikes. Phase II picked a HORRIBLE actor for young kirk.

I mean… Just.. no.

234. warptek - June 6, 2010

This scene depicts a young Kirk closer to what I actually imagined him to be not so much that “other” young Kirk we see in Abram’s verse… a Kirk who really doesn’t care, has an attitude problem, and acts like a hotshot. At least in Cawley’s version or vision, if you will, this Kirk acts more like we would probably expect him to… a real sense of duty, a sense of his true destiny, a total commitment. BUT we still don’t know what he did in the transporter room to earn such a reprimand from Pike.
And Yes, I do understand the reboot concept as it pertains to the main characters.

235. S. John Ross - June 7, 2010

#227: “Putting aside the fact that Cawley is not a professional actor, even though he has acting experience at this point, just consider for a moment the difference between his being cast in that role versus Chris Pine in the most recent movie — Which strikes you as having gotten it ‘right’?”

For my part: neither gets it “right.” But Cawley is much, much closer to the mark, and his work is the closest thing I see in recent years to anything earning (as opposed to simply purchasing or licensing) its Trek cred.

236. Cyberziggy - June 7, 2010

I want so badly to like this….

but it’s jut not cutting it for me. Sorry.

237. RobertZ - June 7, 2010

Could this be Capt. Garrovick instead of Capt. Pike?

I LOVE Phase II!

238. Larry Talbot - June 7, 2010

@238:

I suppose it could be someone besides Pike (despite the artcile being indicating that Colin Cunninghma is playing Pike). But the captain in this clip is someone who seems to know Mister Spock and who is himself wearing an Enterprise insignia.

239. Trek Ahead - June 7, 2010

In the months leading up to the 2009 Trek movie, a lot of fans bashed and nit-picked every little detail from the size of the nacelles, to the color of Kirk’s eyes. And yet the movie was a huge success and fans raved about it.

I was one of the fans who reserved my judgement in the blogs until the movie came out. I really wanted to like it and had high hopes. But I was disappointed, and more than a little irritated. Why? Because they just Threw out the Trek book, dumbed it down for the mass media, and took the easy way out using a tired, unoriginal time travel / alternate universe plot device. A lousy Trek for Paramount’s newest cash cow.

Now given that Phase 2 is a fan based production and James Cawley keeps producing episodes that truly tries to keep with the original feel of Trek, I am not disappointed. Sure, there are always things that need improvement, and some canon issues will always overlooked. Mr. Cawley has a great attention to detail, and tries to improve with each new episode! I hope he will continue to produce his brand of Star Trek for as long as he can.

I do have one question though. In the episode “The Menagerie” Kirk says he met Captain Pike when he was promoted to Fleet Captain. Then Commodore Mendez remarks that he ( Pike ) is about your age to Kirk. Yet in both the 2009 movie, and this clip, we see at least a 20 year difference between Kirk & Pike. How close is close to your age?

Not a huge point of contention. Kind of similar to the absence of brow ridges on the TOS Klingons, to the appearance of them in TMP. In any case, I still enjoy the work that James Cawley does with the Trek legacy. Without a doubt, I will enjoy his version more than anything Paramount will produce.

240. Al - June 7, 2010

Watching it again, I notice it’s even more peculiar – the eye-popping shout in the face dressing down by Pike to the quivering lipped verge of tears Kirk is about him having done something not “appropriate” in the transporter room. And the mention of Spock. And ass. K/S fiction homage guys, K/S homage.

241. Larry Talbot - June 7, 2010

@220:

I understand the notion that Kirk had an ego to keep his more “primeval” tendencies in check. His “Don’t fight me, Janice!” lust and his “It’s my ship!” envy and his “I’m afraid—I want to live!” fear and his “He even scratched me to make us look more alike” sneakiness are all kept in check by Kirk’s healthy ego.

However, I’d be really surprised if Kirk had the exact same healthy ego strength at age 17 that he seems to be exhibiting at age 33. Hasn’t he undergone *any* change in all that time? Wasn’t his ego any more porous back then than it is now? When do *you* think Kirk developed such ego strength to keep his “primeval” tendencies in check? Or did Kirk simply emerge fully ego-developed like Athena from the brow of Jove? Assuming he actually did undergo ego development in his life, I’m not convinced it all had to have been completed before Kirk got to the Academy. (My sense is that “going away to college” is where a lot of that stuff is finally done.) Certainly, his “primeval” sneakiness was still present even in his Academy days: he cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test. If this adolescent sneakiness can get past his 17-year-old ego, why not some adolescent quivering, too? I can’t believe that 17-year-old Kirk would just never behave like a 17-year-old. But maybe that’s the iconoclast in me.

I think the Phase II folks are going out on a pretty sturdy limb—although it might not be the limb you would go out on. (And I don’t think they’re really going all that far out on the limb anyway.)

******************

“Well, that’s obvious, and you’re attempting to provide cover for them with the example you chose to cite, but it’s simply not a good one obviously, and if there’s one thing I reject, it’s the idea of Kirk being able to rise to the level of Starship Captain–one of the brashest and boldest Starfleet had ever seen–at as young of an age as he managed to achieve that promotion despite having been a quivering crybaby supposedly as a cadet.”

242. KhanSingh - June 7, 2010

You fa.t, disgusting slob.

You’re a goddamned disgrace!

A vicious mother, isn’t he?

He can’t do that to our pledges.

Only we can do that to our pledges.

Redo those buttons!

Dress that belt buckle!

Straighten that cap!

And godda.mn it, tuck up those pyja.ma.s!

Attention! Eyes front!

What’s that on your chest, mister?

-It’s a pledge pin, sir.
-A pledge pin!

On your uniform?

Hooked it. Shit.

Just tell me, mister,
what fraternity would pledge…
a man like you?

It’s a Delta pin, sir.

Slice!.

Report to the stable tonight
and every night at hours.

Without that pledge pin!

Do you understand?

243. TheORIGINSfan - June 7, 2010

This episode ‘s a plagiarized plot of another fanfilm called “Star Trek: Origins” that is being produced since 2007, including the title of this chapter is the same.
You can see the similarities in http://www.startrekorigins.com
I wonder why the real producers of ‘Origins’ haven’t protested against this injustice and plagiarism.

244. CAPT KRUNCH - June 7, 2010

as with all Phase 2 acting….over done…too long….bad hair cadet Kirk!
I respect James Cawley for his vision…but this portrayal of Pike and Kirk leave much to be desired… I never invisioned Pike as a screaming tinplated dictator with delusions of godhood or Kirk as a snivelling black haired wus!!…
I realize this is his vision of TREK..and he has the balls to put his rep on the line to make these shows……thankyou for keeping TREK alive for us.

245. The Captain's neck is broken - June 7, 2010

I could go on and on about how critical I am of Star Trek 2009, in short I felt no connection from that story to the Star Trek that I know and love. I think we can all say that we have our favorite episodes and others we cared less for. With that in mind, just try to enjoy the hard work of James Cawley and his team. I think they are doing a fine job.

246. Buzz Cagney - June 7, 2010

#237 don’t worry I watched it on YouTube. Not sure then why the clip won’t play otherwise. As I say, no worries.
I was moved to go and watch more of PhaseII and I think its pretty darned good. Particularly enjoy some of the sfx.
Fans need to remember these are made BY FANS. I’m with 246 and the other posters that can see the remarkable work and effort that has gone in here. I think its staggering!

247. Larry Talbot - June 7, 2010

@ 244

I think by “being produced” you mean “has not yet actually released anything.”

I don’t think you can *plagiarize* titles of things. (I think they can be re-used. For example, there are a whole slew of completely different songs all titled “I Need You.”) But I do think you can violate copyrights if the title was copyrighted. Do you know if the title “Star Trek: Origins” was copyrighted? (I don’t know if one fan production can steal from another fan production when the first fan production never licensed the property and never actually had any rights to it to begin with, but I admit it’s a gray area.)

And actually, I seem to recall that Diane Carey wrote a Trek novel back in 1988 all about the early adventures Captain April and his First Officer George Kirk (the father of James T. Kirk):

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Frontier

So this all sounds a bit like “Phase II can’t steal this idea! The Star Trek: Origins fan production stole the idea first!” And actually, I’d be surprised if David Gerrold really had much interest in using someone else’s plots.

I seem to recall some post on the New Voyages/Phase II forums about Phase II and the “Star Trek: Origins” folks entering into some sort of understanding. It’s possible that “Origins” may just be a temporary working title of this production and will change by the time the episode is released.

248. TJ Trek - June 7, 2010

May have been said already, but characters do have arcs you know. Maybe Chris Pike wen’t through a series of event between this point and THE CAGE that made him more of the man he is in that episode.

249. Larry Talbot - June 7, 2010

@249:

No, no! The Trek universe is immutable! Once we see some element in it, it can never change! The way Kirk and Pike behave in the time we’ve seen them is the way they behaved when they were 17 years old or 17 months old or 17 days old! We know those characters perfectly and there’s nothing new we can learn about them! They will always behave predicatbly because we are all such experts on them.

250. Jerry Modene - June 7, 2010

I’ll be interested in seeing just what it was that Kirk did, too, to upset Pike so much. As for going over-the-top with his anger… even the nicest guy can lose his temper, with enough provocation. So we’ll see.

Personally, I’m still looking forward to Phase II’s take on “Mind Sifter”, the old Shirley Maiewski fan-story that was the final story in the paperback “New Voyages” book in the late 70’s. I loved that story, and wished it would have been used as the basis for the first Star Trek movie.

251. Al - June 7, 2010

It tells you what it was – something inappropriate in the transporter room…

252. Larry Talbot - June 7, 2010

@226:

For what it’s worth, the “arrogant, undisciplined, with far too much ego and too little wisdom” Jean-Luc Picard was able to turn himself around immediatly after graduation from the Academy and get his life together well enough to rise to command a starship. I wouldn’t be surprised if, similarly, Cadet James T. Kirk could have turned himself around after a stern chewing-out from Captain Pike and then risen to command a starship as well.

253. Phil - June 7, 2010

@ 251…here is my list

1. Over, not under with the TP
2. Squeeze’s toothpaste from the middle.
3. Painted the turbolift doors cherry red instead of fire engine red
4. Lost the ambassadors privates in an unfortunate transporter incident.
5. Got caught doing the horizontal bop in transporter room 3

254. StarFuryG7 - June 7, 2010

242. Larry Talbot
“If this adolescent sneakiness can get past his 17-year-old ego, why not some adolescent quivering, too?”

Because that’s not Kirk, who was “so serious” in the Academy that he was “absolutely grim.” He was a man with a plan, and his cheating on the Kobyashi Maru test was a sign of his shrewdness and the craftiness he would ultimately bring as Captain of the Enterprise. But shaking like a leaf like that in front of a ranking Starfleet officer? I think he’d rather have died before letting that happen –and that’s the stubborn, determined side of Kirk, which he also brought to his role as Captain of the Enterprise. That’s why his enemies found him difficult to deal with and could never get the better of him.

255. StarFuryG7 - June 7, 2010

#235. S. John Ross
“For my part: neither gets it “right.” But Cawley is much, much closer to the mark,”

You have got to be kidding me –he doesn’t fit the part AT ALL.

Chris Pine on the other hand does a lot more by comparison, and his Kirk is also not exactly the same as traditional Kirk by virtue of the different turns his life ended up taking in the new timeline, so he’s angrier and at times pushes way too hard in contrast. But at least I can see Kirk in him. I can’t see Kirk in Cawley at all; he’s all wrong for the part.

“and his work is the closest thing I see in recent years to anything earning (as opposed to simply purchasing or licensing) its Trek cred.”

It’s obvious he has a love of the original material –I don’t question that, although I might take issue with some of his approaches and handling of the material. But if he really wanted to do TOS and Kirk justice from an amateur production standpoint he would have known to step aside and let someone else take on the role of Kirk regardless of how much he wanted to play Kirk himself. But of course, then he wouldn’t have felt as inspired to want to do “New Voyages”/Phase II” I would imagine.

256. StarFuryG7 - June 7, 2010

253. Larry
“For what it’s worth, the “arrogant, undisciplined, with far too much ego and too little wisdom” Jean-Luc Picard was able to turn himself around immediatly after graduation from the Academy and get his life together well enough to rise to command a starship. I wouldn’t be surprised if, similarly, Cadet James T. Kirk could have turned himself around after a stern chewing-out from Captain Pike and then risen to command a starship as well.”

No reason to believe Kirk would have had that kind of interaction with Pike or he’d have very likely alluded to it in TOS. Instead the impression conveyed is that his meeting the man was nothing like that at all.

257. Larry Talbot - June 7, 2010

@253

There’s no reason to believe he couldn’t have had that kind of interraction. (But I think you know that.) There’s no reason to believe *anything* in the Trek universe until someone writes it. It’s like you’re saying no writer can have an original thought in his head unless it based on some other pre-established data point. “No one ever said Kirk had a pet dog, so he couldn’t have had one.”

There is no “impression” at all being conveyed in “The Menagerie” about the interraction Kirk had with Pike. Kirk didn’t talk about it. Nothing there to talk about? Maybe. *Intentionally not wanting to discuss* it in front of his junior officers? Ah! Now *that’* sounds like an interesting, counterintuitive story! Tell me more!

It’s actually a *clean,* not a slate that’s already been filled–unless it’s something that *you* have filled it with with preconceptions. But that’s not really canon (or particularly interesting).

258. Larry Talbot - June 7, 2010

@255:

1. So at what point in his Academy career become serious and positively grim? During the first year? The second year? We “know” he was at *some* point, but on the first day? Was he *already* a serious, grim, stack of books even as a kid?

Assuming for a moment that Cadet Kirk is whisked away on his second day at the Academy to help out on urgent, temporary mission on the Enterprise, what makes you think he can’t be a quivering crybaby on that first day? Maybe those who knew him at the Academy and describe him as serious and grim and studious are talking about his *second* day there–and all the other four years to follow. All we know is at *some point during his Academy days he was serious and grim and studious. I’m prepared to grant the writer to leeway to make all these things Kirk *became* while at the Academy.

2. *Even if* (for the sake of argument) Kirk was serious and grim and studious before ever setting foot on the San Francisco campus, those things *aren’t* actually mutually exclusive with being a “quivering crybaby.” He could have been all those things simultaneously–including the crybaby. In fact, I’m inclined to think that if the grim and serious Kirk couldn’t really be provoked, always rose above the efforts of his tormenter and couldn’t be annoyed into showing frustration, it sure wouldn’t have been fun for upperclassman Finnegan. But if Jimmy would well up–maybe just a bit–I can see it being all worthwhile for Finnegan. I see plenty of serious, grim, studious adolescents who are totally emo and will cry at the drop of hat. I *don’t* think that *absolutely none of them* can ever rise to command a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier one day.

I guess I come back to my earlier posts: when did Kirk *become* “the man that he is” when we finally see him at age 33? Did he become that man at age 4? At age 7? At age 13 when he was Bar Mitzvahed? It looks like you believe he had completed that transformation by age 17–if indeed you feel he simply hadn’t emerged in full-blown Kirkian mode at birth.

259. Jonas Q. - June 7, 2010

Why is the lighting in this scene so horrible? The photo below with Jim Kirk and George Kirk is a thousand times better.

260. Jonas Q. - June 7, 2010

And why is Pike from one perspective shouting into Kirk’s left face, and seen from the other perspective he’s shouting in his right face? Is that intentional?

261. Paulaner - June 7, 2010

I truly appreciate the efforts of Cawley and his crew, but in all honesty, that scene was too amateurish. The acting, the lights, the camera work, nothing is working for me. I simply cannot suspend my disbelief.

262. SPB - June 7, 2010

OMG… that “acting” is flippin’ horrible. HORRIBLE.

263. S. John Ross - June 7, 2010

#256: “You have got to be kidding me – he doesn’t fit the part AT ALL.”

I disagree. And thus, the unspeakable has occurred: two Star Trek fans are not in perfect accord :) I’m sure the universe will collapse later today as a result. It’s a tragedy; I’m still two movies and 94 episodes behind on Sex And the City …

“I can’t see Kirk in Cawley at all; he’s all wrong for the part.”

I understand. I see it differently, though, with Chris Pine (a fine actor, by the way) devoid of anything I can recognize as Kirk (even when accounting for RM-Kirk’s fatherless childhood, etc). And the way it works is, you get to base your opinion on what you see, while I get to base mine on what I see.

264. Phil - June 7, 2010

@260
Why?? Because these guys are amaturs, and these things are shot in a u-stor-it yard somewhere…..

265. Dennis Bailey - June 7, 2010

Neither of those things is true, of course.

266. Falvoant - June 7, 2010

Im with James
This IS amusing

267. Phil - June 7, 2010

So, ya all think this will hit 300 posts?

268. StarFuryG7 - June 7, 2010

#259 Larry
“*Even if* (for the sake of argument) Kirk was serious and grim and studious before ever setting foot on the San Francisco campus, those things *aren’t* actually mutually exclusive with being a “quivering crybaby.” He could have been all those things simultaneously–including the crybaby. In fact, I’m inclined to think that if the grim and serious Kirk couldn’t really be provoked, always rose above the efforts of his tormenter and couldn’t be annoyed into showing frustration, it sure wouldn’t have been fun for upperclassman Finnegan.”

Actually it was fun for Finnegan because Kirk was so grim and serious and couldn’t have taken his studies more seriously obviously.

But so noted –you’re making an argument for Kirk being a crybaby. Knock yourself out. Fortunately however it won’t constitute canon material, thank God.

And I don’t think Kirk is a Jewish name by the way, but hey, if they’re going to make him a trembling Starfleet cadet, why not declare his heritage Jewish too while they’re at it? Might as well, but fortunately that won’t count as “official” anything either, thank God also.

269. StarFuryG7 - June 7, 2010

#264.
“I understand. I see it differently, though, with Chris Pine (a fine actor, by the way) devoid of anything I can recognize as Kirk (even when accounting for RM-Kirk’s fatherless childhood, etc). And the way it works is, you get to base your opinion on what you see, while I get to base mine on what I see.”

Yeah, but only one of us is actually right here — Cawley cast himself because he wanted to BE Kirk, and he finances the whole venture in large part, or at least that’s how it started out for him. Pine on the other hand went through an extensive casting call process, with him being the last actor announced for the most vital role of the last movie. They took special care to at least get casting that crucial role right.

270. Larry Talbot - June 7, 2010

@269:

Well, just to be clear–I actually wasn’t making the case that in the brief scene that’s been released that Cadet Kirk is a “crybaby.” (He doesn’t apperar to cry.) But I think your argument was that he Kirk can’t be a crybaby because he’s serious and grim. My counter argument would be that, they aren’t mutually exclusive. So while it’s pretty clear Cadet Kirk isn’t crying, I’m sure you would agree that it would not actually contradict canon if he were.

(N.B. Jewish ethnicity is matrilineal, not patrilineal.)

271. JMAN - June 7, 2010

I must say that I’m surprised by all the negative reaction about a rough cut of a scene from an episode that is still being shot. It’s much, much too early to jump to conclusions about the quality of the episode or the believability of the characterizations.

Personally, I thought it was very promising. The acting was obviously high quality (getting Colin Cunningham to play Pike was a coup!) and my level of interest in seeing this episode was increased considerably. Good luck to you and your team, James Cawley!

272. S. John Ross - June 8, 2010

#270: “Yeah, but only one of us is actually right here”

I’m sorry to be the one to break the difficult news to you, but it is in fact a matter of taste. Nobody gets to be “right” or “wrong.” Ever.

“Cawley cast himself because he wanted to BE Kirk, and he finances the whole venture in large part, or at least that’s how it started out for him. ”

Yes. Comparable, indeed, to being (to pick a wild example entirely at random, unrelated to anything) a couple of executive producers purchasing their way into a franchise, and deciding they should write the screenplay instead of hiring science fiction writers. However, see above; it’s still a matter of taste. There is no right or wrong in these matters, except in scare quotes.

“They took special care to at least get casting that crucial role right.”

And they failed. That’s my opinion. It differs from yours; neither are right or wrong.

That’s the way it works. Now feel free to enjoy Chris Pine and consider him excellent casting, and feel free not to enjoy Cawley and consider him a vanity case. I’ll feel free to enjoy Pine (despite his utter wrongness, lack of dudeness and his overwhelming soulless yuppie doucheness, since he’s still a fun actor) and Cawley (despite his semi-wrongness and refusal to enunciate clearly) and we all get to have our opinions, but despite what might be special emotional needs on your part, you don’t get to be right on matters of taste.

But hey, the bonus is, you don’t get to be _wrong_ either. It’s beautiful that way.

273. Dennis Bailey - June 8, 2010

#273: “#270: ‘Yeah, but only one of us is actually right here’

I’m sorry to be the one to break the difficult news to you, but it is in fact a matter of taste. Nobody gets to be ‘right’ or ‘wrong.’ Ever.

Exactly so. Why do people get confused about this?

274. S. John Ross - June 8, 2010

#274: “Exactly so. Why do people get confused about this?”

I think it mostly comes down to confusing objective _criteria_ with objective _taste._ That’s a very broad generalization, I know, but that often seems to be the case in my experience. Someone decides (to pick some arbitrary and silly illustrative examples) that the best food is food that contains more Vitamin A, or the best movie is the one that runs the longest, or the best novel is the one that places on the NYT Bestseller List … and because they’ve chosen objectively-measurable criteria, that any opinions based on those criteria are also objective. The root of the fallacy is forgetting that the _weighting_ of the criteria remains subjective, and thus opinions inevitably remain subjective as well.

StarFuryG7 has an objective criterion for casting Kirk: if people at a movie company take the time to do casting calls in order to be selective (an objectively measurable event) then they do better than people who cast themselves for their own project (another objectively measurable event). The fallacy is the notion that his _weighting_ of these criteria is objective, when of course, it isn’t and it can’t be. We all weigh each criterion as suits what we respond well to and what we observe, including dismissing some entirely as … weightless, as it were :)

And, on a more personal level, I think some people just need to be right … which is fine on objective, practical matters (if you’re a house-builder and take pride in building houses that don’t fall down, that’s a great time to want to be right!) but it gets silly on matters of taste.

I have no illusions about the objective correctness of my tastes … I consider Pine wrong for Kirk based on several criteria, many of which are objectively measurable, some of which are more elusive … but my weighting of each criterion remains subjective, and so my taste is subjective, simple as that. Not sure why StarFuryG7 doesn’t understand that his tastes are, necessarily and unavoidably, just as subjective, no matter what criteria he chooses to cite.

275. James Cawley - June 8, 2010

Seems this site has completely lost it’s luster. Fans no longer seem to support one another here. It makes no sense to me why fandom has become so fractured. What happened to the cool side of Geekdom ?

276. S. John Ross - June 8, 2010

#276: “What happened to the cool side of Geekdom ?”

I don’t recall it _ever_ being particularly well-represented on the Internet, really …

But hey, some of us are vocally Pro-Cawley, anyway :)

277. KhanSingh - June 8, 2010

I wish I had the time and the ambition to pull off what James has done. I love the effects and the sets. That all works so well, but I just can’t get past the acting. It’s so bad it ruins everything good about Phase ll. This scene is just another example of how I feel. Keep your dream going James.

278. Charles Root - June 8, 2010

“You disagree with me, fine. You need to take it to the Captain, fine; through me. But you do an end around me again, I’ll snap you back so hard you’ll think you’re a First Year Cadet again. Understand me? – Commander Riker

Cadets are meant to be ripped apart, it builds character.

279. Zebonka - June 8, 2010

In the end, I really do like the clip – but I have to say at this juncture,

**********on my SHIP*********

280. Trek Ahead - June 8, 2010

@ 276 & @ 279

It’s been my experience that Trek fans are very passionate about their opinions, and some are very quick to tell you your opinion is wrong, or theirs is right. I tend to migrate away from those fans and let them bash each other till the doomsday machine comes.

My friends and I have enjoyed Star Trek from the very beginning. We don’t always agree on things, but it’s all in fun, and we enjoy the camaraderie as fans.

I have introduced Phase II to my trek friends and also to my friends who aren’t necessarily Trek fans, and even they have commented on how well it’s done.

James, keep right on doing what you’re doing! You have many, many more fans than are represented on these blogs!

Charles, I enjoy your portrayal of Montgomery Scott very much! Keep up the great work!

281. Jonas Q. - June 8, 2010

“265. Phil – June 7, 2010
@260
Why?? Because these guys are amaturs, and these things are shot in a u-stor-it yard somewhere…..

But, but, but they get top class actors to appear in this? Why can’t they get a good director of photography?

282. LostinTranslation - June 8, 2010

Aside from the laugh-inducing overacting, poor camera setup and lazy editing it’s a mildly watchable amateur attempt in a Mystery Science Theater 3000 kind of way.

It doesn’t help that this painfully on-the-nose scene brings to mind JJ Abram’s vastly superior Kirk/Pike exchange at the bar.

Pretty obvious Crawley can’t direct to save his life. But at least it appears he’s at least having some fun.

283. StarFuryG7 - June 8, 2010

#271. Larry
“Well, just to be clear–I actually wasn’t making the case that in the brief scene that’s been released that Cadet Kirk is a “crybaby.” ”

Allow me to quote you directly in part from message #259:

“Assuming for a moment that Cadet Kirk is whisked away on his second day at the Academy to help out on urgent, temporary mission on the Enterprise, what makes you think he can’t be a quivering crybaby on that first day?”
“*Even if* (for the sake of argument) Kirk was serious and grim and studious before ever setting foot on the San Francisco campus, those things *aren’t* actually mutually exclusive with being a “quivering crybaby.” He could have been all those things simultaneously–including the crybaby.”

Again, as I stated in my last response to you, you were making the case that it’s perfectly acceptable and reasonable that he was once a crybaby obviously.

Back to your latest response (#271)
“(He doesn’t apperar to cry.)”

The actor playing him in that scene looks to be on the verge of tears and about to completely breakdown, which is why I didn’t hesitate to refer to him as “a quivering crybaby”.

“But I think your argument was that he Kirk can’t be a crybaby because he’s serious and grim.”

That was one aspect of his character traits that I had cited, but my argument over the course of this thread was certainly not limited to just that obviously.

“My counter argument would be that, they aren’t mutually exclusive. So while it’s pretty clear Cadet Kirk isn’t crying, I’m sure you would agree that it would not actually contradict canon if he were.”

I’ve been arguing that it’s not at all consistent with the character I know, so you can take that to mean that it would be contradictory to canon if you like.

“(N.B. Jewish ethnicity is matrilineal, not patrilineal.)”

There’s nothing to indicate that the character is Jewish on either side of his family tree. On the contrary, he’s an American, apparently of European ancestry. Just because the actor who played him originally is Jewish doesn’t mean the character is or was ever meant to be.

284. StarFuryG7 - June 8, 2010

#273. S. John Ross
“I’m sorry to be the one to break the difficult news to you, but it is in fact a matter of taste. Nobody gets to be “right” or “wrong.” Ever.”

According to this logic and line of reasoning, the producers could just as easily have picked Paul Giamatti to play Kirk in ST09 and nobody could have argued with that choice because it’s all “subjective” supposedly, with there being no “right” or “wrong” on the matter –except that it’s not obviously, which is why they were very careful and deliberative in the choice they made.

Cawley on the other hand simply decided on his own that he wanted to play Kirk, and since it was his production backed by his money there was no one in a position to tell him “No” obviously and that he was wrong for the part.

285. StarFuryG7 - June 8, 2010

#281. Trek Ahead – June 8, 2010
@ 276 & @ 279
“It’s been my experience that Trek fans are very passionate about their opinions, and some are very quick to tell you your opinion is wrong, or theirs is right. I tend to migrate away from those fans and let them bash each other till the doomsday machine comes.”

Fine –I couldn’t care less actually. If someone is going to sit there and tell me that Chris Pine was a bad choice for Kirk and that James Cawley more accurately and acceptably fits the role and looks the part supposedly, I won’t hesitate to tell them they’re wrong. Yes, it comes down to my opinion which I have every right to be emphatic about in part, but it’s not limited to simply my opinion on the matter. The character is who he is obviously, and casting against type if that’s what’s been done also amounts to reality.

286. Larry Talbot - June 8, 2010

@284:

“There’s nothing to indicate that [Kirk] is Jewish… On the contrary, he’s an American….”

Wow. I just want to make sure I understood you correctly.

287. StarFuryG7 - June 8, 2010

287. Larry T
“There’s nothing to indicate that [Kirk] is Jewish… On the contrary, he’s an American….”

“Wow. I just want to make sure I understood you correctly.”

Since you chose to quote me out of context, resorting to two breaks in order to do it, I’d have to say apparently not.

288. The TOS Purist aka The Purolator - June 8, 2010

#4 – He DID only meet Pike once, but Cawley doesn’t really care too much about the TOS continuity, despite what he says to the contrary.

Pike also shouldn’t be this “father figure” to Kirk, either – in “The Menagerie” Commodore Mendez says that Pike is about Kirk’s age, not older.

289. Larry Talbot - June 8, 2010

“There’s nothing to indicate that the character is Jewish on either side of his family tree. On the contrary, he’s an American, apparently of European ancestry. Just because the actor who played him originally is Jewish doesn’t mean the character is or was ever meant to be.”

Holy crap! Did you really mean that?!

290. Dennis Bailey - June 8, 2010

#285:According to this logic and line of reasoning, the producers could just as easily have picked Paul Giamatti to play Kirk in ST09 and nobody could have argued with that choice because it’s all “subjective” supposedly, with there being no “right” or “wrong” on the matter –except that it’s not obviously, which is why they were very careful and deliberative in the choice they made.:”

Nonetheless, they would not have been “wrong” to cast Giamatti – simply so ill-advised that the example is a silly one.

Taste is subjective – good, bad or indifferent. It *is* that simple.

291. Gary Evans - June 8, 2010

To the complainer about lighting . we have about 60,000 watts of professional lighting MOST of which is utilized at every shot. The equipment is Mole Richardson, Arri and Bardwell-McAlister. Fresnel lights in 300, 650, 1K and 2K, space lights, nook lights. barn doors, scrims, gel filters galore.

We DO NOT shout in a side yard. We film in a studio built inside a former auto garage. We have hundreds of feet of distro cable, stringers and stingers! We have three – four sets of breakers protecting each circuit! Robert, our chief gaffer has much lighting experience as well as an engineering background. I have electrical experience dating to 1965! I am responsible for studio electric; I am assisted by an apprentice electrician from upstate NY and now by a licensed electrician from Wisconsin. We are also advised by an electrical engineer when necessary as well.

All our equipment is orange-tagged IF ANY problem seems apparent. ALL equipment MUST BE repaired prior to return to use – EVEN during a shoot.

As for the lighting in any particular scene WE light according to the scene description combined with the judgment of the director and the director photography. This work is accomplished by the G&E crew that is directed by qualified volunteers. The past four years since OGaM was filmed at OUR studio we have spent nearly $80,000 on wiring plus Grip & Electric equipment!

We constantly make improvements to the studio as well – of course we are limited by money ALL OF WHICH comes from donations by fans, crew and some cast members!

During the process of acquiring the professional lighting others and myself became very well versed on what the various light’s capabilities are, the safe use of such equipment and where as well as how to safely use our lighting assets. We have had advice from several professional G&E crew managers!

Oh, I know all this because I was integrally involved in the entire process!

Our studio may be modest or lacking refinements BUT the greatest attention is placed into set, costume and prop creation or acquisition! Again, I have first hand experience because I was integrally involved with a significant portion of such!

Whether OR not anyone likes this unedited raw-footage clip is unimportant AT THIS TIME! Mayhap, New Voyages Phase II should JUST NEVER release another early clip. Just make everyone except the actual crew wait until release date of the trailer(s)!

I chortle at those who can deduce so much criticism from a raw footage segment of three minutes, more or less! I personally worked more than twenty years with professional TV and Movie critics – WHO evaluated ONLY when given proper critics’ preview materials by the producers OR after a TV episode or movie was finally in distribution. That is the way professional, whether paid or unpaid, critics CHOOSE to conduct their reviews. I only pay attention to ANY critic in any genre that follows those guidelines of review!

I welcome critique ONCE a full episode is release, SO DOES James! So DOES our entire team crew and cast! We do chose the scripts and we do produce as we believe the story should be told. WE DO recognize NOT every fan will admire or even like our interpretations.
Opinions and true critique are totally different beasts!
So opine on ad infinitum …

292. StarFuryG7 - June 8, 2010

“Holy crap! Did you really mean that?!”

Why don’t we approach this from a slightly different angle — Since it was your contention that the character is Jewish, why don’t you point to some canonical proof that actually indicates it?

293. StarFuryG7 - June 8, 2010

291. Dennis Bailey
“Nonetheless, they would not have been “wrong” to cast Giamatti” [as Kirk]

You’re more than welcome to rest your case on that, as I believe it only serves to illustrate and make my point.

294. Larry Talbot - June 9, 2010

@294:

Dude! You are *always* getting this exactly completely backwards.

I’m not saying Kirk *is* Jewish; I’m not saying Kirk *is* a crybaby. I’m only saying he *could* be those things. There is nothing to exclude it. I’m allowing the possibility because nothing prevents it; you’re excluding the possibility because, well, I don’t know how you’re doing that.

The writers wouldn’t need to work around the fact that it was never said that Kirk had a pet dog. They would only need to work around a situation where it was said that Kirk *doesn’t* have a pet dog.

I’ve gone back and looked at your posts and I see the problem petty much on all counts: you think that “lack of evidence of something” is exactly the same as “evidence of a lack of something.” It isn’t. But it’s a common logical mistake to make.

If we’re looking for “canonical proof” of something, where is your canonical proof Kirk is a Gentile? Where is your canonical proof that Kirk is a stoic? It looks like you have, at best, circumstantial evidence, not something that’s compelling. Without evidence, every interpretation is valid. But that’s the other criticism folks have raised about your debate style. You don’t think people can reach different conclusions from you when there is a void in the data.

********************************
293. StarFuryG7 – June 8, 2010
“Holy crap! Did you really mean that?!”

Why don’t we approach this from a slightly different angle — Since it was your contention that the character is Jewish, why don’t you point to some canonical proof that actually indicates it?

295. Dennis Bailey - June 9, 2010

#293:”291. Dennis Bailey
“Nonetheless, they would not have been “wrong” to cast Giamatti” [as Kirk]

You’re more than welcome to rest your case on that, as I believe it only serves to illustrate and make my point.”

It really, really doesn’t…but then you’re kind of locked into this nonsense, so I guess there’s nowhere for you to go now. LOL

They’re doing “The Tempest” with Dame Helen Mirren as “Prospera,” BTW.

296. I'm on a Horse! - June 9, 2010

292. Gary Evans

For all that effort and equipment it looks totally overexposed. Just look at the faces. This is horrible. I have to agree with everyone who criticized the lighting of this scene.

And lighting and actor positions don’t even match from camera angle to camera angle. This looks very, very, very amateur. Sorry to say that, but seriously…

297. Larry Talbot - June 9, 2010

“They’ll fix it in Post.”

298. Charles Root - June 9, 2010

Ugh! Please remember you are looking at a scene that has gone through zero post processing, no color correction, no balancing.

I’m leery of getting advice from “anonymous internet experts” that offer at best a “drive by shooting” of criticism, with either willful or ignorant discard of the context and parameters of their critical target. Context and parameters that have been identified several times either in the article itself or this comments section.

In many respects such innominate, cloddish and reproachful comments negate even valid observations.

299. Phil - June 9, 2010

300 yoo hooo!!

300. StarFuryG7 - June 9, 2010

#295. Larry Talbot
“Dude! You are *always* getting this exactly completely backwards.”

No, actually I’m not, because I’m going by exactly what you say.

“I’m not saying Kirk *is* Jewish; I’m not saying Kirk *is* a crybaby. I’m only saying he *could* be those things.”

I disagree with your contention that he would have had a Bar Mitzvah at age 13, just as I disagree with your contention that he could have been a crybaby, because both are not consistent with the character we know. So I’m not getting anything “backwards” supposedly, as I’m simply addressing your contentions –they’re things you have said and introduced into the dialogue, not me.

“There is nothing to exclude it.”

Unless you go by what was actually established about the character.

“you’re excluding the possibility because, well, I don’t know how you’re doing that.”

For the obvious reasons: there’s nothing about the character that indicates or in any way event hints at his being Jewish. We know that he’s from Iowa; we know that his family tree extends back to the Old West of the United States, along with his name, none of which points to his being a Jew. “Kirk” is primarily an Anglo surname that points to the Catholic Church if anything; in fact, the name is actually synonymous with “church”. So if you want to make the case that the character is Jewish, or that it’s reasonable that he’s Jewish, the burden of proof is on you to actually point to something that stands to indicate it. And you can’t.

As for his having been a crybaby as a cadet –it’s equally ridiculous that we’re even debating this as well obviously, because everything about Kirk stands to indicate the opposite. We know given his bold stubbornness that he’s not the type of guy who quivers in the face of extreme danger, and that he did not hesitate to cheat on the Kobayashi Maru test in order to pass it and make a point, which shows that he was prepared to take heat from Starfleet Instructors for having made that choice, so shaking in fear is not consistent with who the character is; as I said previously, Cadet Kirk would probably have rather died than let a Starfleet officer see him trembling in fear like that — And rather than simply acknowledge this as correct you would rather bend over backwards making an excuse for a fan-made film that depicts something that isn’t canon anyway.

“I’ve gone back and looked at your posts and I see the problem petty much on all counts: you think that “lack of evidence of something” is exactly the same as “evidence of a lack of something.” It isn’t.”

And your argument boils down to “the absence of evidence equals evidence” supposedly, which it doesn’t. If you were the least bit interested in the preponderance of available evidence you would acknowledge what is obvious: that both of your contentions are baseless and silly.

“If we’re looking for ‘canonical proof’ of something, where is your canonical proof Kirk is a Gentile?”

Is it really your contention that when this show was being produced back in the mid-to-late 1960s, that it was actually the intent Gene Roddenberry to make the lead character of the show Jewish? Apparently it is.

What about Captain Christopher Pike –was he also intended to be Jewish supposedly? Or Captain Robert April? Are those two more Jews as far as you’re concerned? On the contrary, they speak to a clear pattern as to what was intended for the lead character, does it not?

And call me crazy, but somehow I doubt that a Jew would be so ready and eager to acknowledge Christ the way Kirk does at the end of “Bread and Circuses” by the way.

“But that’s the other criticism folks have raised about your debate style. You don’t think people can reach different conclusions from you when there is a void in the data.”

Right–which brings us right back to Kirk having such an obviously Jewish name, which doesn’t matter to you obviously, along with everything else that doesn’t stand to indicate what you’re intent on arguing. You literally have to ignore all that’s been established about Kirk in order to reach your kinds of conclusions, which makes it extremely fortunate that you’re not writing for the character, and that someone who thinks like you isn’t either, because your argument that “the absence of data equals data” would only serve to destroy the character and what he has stood for all this time.

301. StarFuryG7 - June 9, 2010

296. Dennis Bailey
“It really, really doesn’t…but then you’re kind of locked into this nonsense, so I guess there’s nowhere for you to go now.”

That couldn’t be funnier coming from a guy whose argument is that there was nothing to stop the producers of the last movie from hiring Paul Giamatti to play Kirk. If that’s not locked into a ridiculous position with nowhere to go I don’t know what is –you ran into a dead-end, and now you’re trying to tear down the barrier, insisting that there’s actually a road there which leads somewhere when there isn’t.

302. StarFuryG7 - June 9, 2010

299. Charles Root
“Ugh! Please remember you are looking at a scene that has gone through zero post processing, no color correction, no balancing.”

For what it’s worth, even though I would take issue with certain aspects of the scene, the lighting wasn’t one of them, just for the record.

303. Larry Talbot - June 9, 2010

@301:

I think you have misunderstood me, but the fault might be mine.

I don’t advocate one way or the other for Kirk’s ethnicity or temperment. I merely maintain that we don’t have any data one way or the other and writers have free reign to speculate on such things. You are one who first “argued” that “Kirk can’t be ‘x’ because he’s ‘y.’ But we actually seem to be discussing two things that could *both* be true–which in the end doesn’t support your argument. “Is Kirk a human, or does he, instead have hazel eyes?” Well, professor, both can be true.

Did Kirk almost cry as a cadet or does he, instead, no longer cry now?” Well, professor, both of those can be true, too.

Is Kirk Jewish or is he, instead, an American of European descent? Well, professor, both of those can be true.

Is Kirk a Gentile or is he, instead, an American of European descent? Well, professor, both of those can be true.

If a writer wants to have Kirk say “I once visited Paris as a kid.” Well okay, I can buy that. Nothing we’ve seen would prevent a writer from speculating that.

Or, perhaps a writer wants to have Kirk say “I’ve never visited Paris in my life.” Well, okay. That would be fine, too. Nothing would prevent a writer from speculating that either.

Right?

So unless something is actually contradicted, I think it’s still fair game. And if two things can *both* be true, then *that’s* actually not a contradiction. Both could still be true.

Mostly, I don’t really care if Kirk is, say, a Hindu or not–and I think he probably isn’t. But if a writer wanted to come up with a story where Kirk *is* a Hindu, I think there’s acutally *not* something out there in established Trek lore that excludes that dramatic possibility. SImply upsetting a viewer’s preconceived notion doesn’t inherently make it non-canonical.

So your Trek characterizations may be laudable, but your reasoning is reckless.

Just don’t go into the field of medicine: you don’t appear to understand the concept of excluding a condition–or the notion that a diagnosis might still be in the running as a possibility until and unless it is actively “ruled out.”

304. StarFuryG7 - June 9, 2010

304. Larry
“I think you have misunderstood me, but the fault might be mine.”

Why look to accept blame for _anything_ at this point?

“I don’t advocate one way or the other for Kirk’s ethnicity or temperment.”

Then apparently you don’t have a clear idea as to what it is even after all this time.

“I merely maintain that we don’t have any data one way or the other”

On the contrary –we do, or I wouldn’t have bothered disputing your contentions.

“You are one who first “argued” that “Kirk can’t be ‘x’ because he’s ‘y.’ ”

Because ‘y’ is what it is obviously.

“But we actually seem to be discussing two things that could *both* be true–which in the end doesn’t support your argument. ‘Is Kirk a human, or does he, instead have hazel eyes?’ Well, professor, both can be true.”

Except that’s not what you were arguing at all obviously, was it.

“Is Kirk Jewish or is he, instead, an American of European descent? Well, professor, both of those can be true.”

Except that they’re not and you know it and are determined to keep arguing that position anyway regardless.

“Is Kirk a Gentile or is he, instead, an American of European descent? Well, professor, both of those can be true.”

Both of those are apparently true, “Professor”.

“If a writer wants to have Kirk say ‘I once visited Paris as a kid.’ Well okay, I can buy that. Nothing we’ve seen would prevent a writer from speculating that.”

You can’t compare a visit to Paris with the character’s heritage, which is what you chose to specifically call into question.

“Mostly, I don’t really care if Kirk is, say, a Hindu or not–and I think he probably isn’t.”

You’ve just drawn a conclusion about who Kirk is and what he believes –congratulations, even if it is only a halfhearted conclusion at best.

“SImply upsetting a viewer’s preconceived notion doesn’t inherently make it non-canonical.”

Keep arguing on behalf of it being reasonable and acceptable that the character is Jewish for all I care, as you’re only continuing to dig yourself ever deeper.

“So your Trek characterizations may be laudable, but your reasoning is reckless.”

On the contrary –it comes as a result of having actually paid attention over the years, something that you evidently have not done.

“Just don’t go into the field of medicine: you don’t appear to understand the concept of excluding a condition”

And I would recommend you steer clear of that profession as well, as you apparently wouldn’t recognize a patient who’s having a heart attack right in front of you. The guy would end up dropping as you stood there trying to determine the cause of what ails him.

…Been fun chatting with you, “Professor.”

305. Dennis Bailey - June 9, 2010

TOS continuity contradicted itself quite frequently. To be “canon” doesn’t mean to be consistent.

306. Larry Talbot - June 9, 2010

@305:

I think at this point it would be best if you just took Occam’s Razor and used it to slit your wrists.

307. StarFuryG7 - June 9, 2010

307. Larry
“I think at this point it would be best if you just took Occam’s Razor and used it to slit your wrists.”

LMAO …why don’t you print that one up and find a copy of the King James Bible to stick it in.

308. mia bouvier - June 9, 2010

My guess is that the reason why ST: TOS and Enterprise got canceled
was partly because of ignorant a*s fans like:

………
“260. Jonas Q. – June 7, 2010

Why is the lighting in this scene so horrible? The photo below with Jim Kirk and George Kirk is a thousand times better.”
………

Jonas Q has about as much perception as a snail on salt.

The lighting, the editing, camera shots, music cues, sound cues in ST: Phase II, by Cawley and Gang is AmAzInG!!!!
The work those guys are doing is really, really great.

And is here is more of his ignroant swill:

………
261. Jonas Q. – June 7, 2010

And why is Pike from one perspective shouting into Kirk’s left face, and seen from the other perspective he’s shouting in his right face? Is that intentional?
………

Those angles are consistant. You obviously have sight issues. Having mulitple shots on a scene is way of enhancing the power of a scene.

But you know what??

DO NOT try to explain technical items to a*ses like Jonas Q. These are the same kind of thin skinned folk that feel all drama should be removed from a series, leaving only phaser blasts and explosions. These “guys” can’t figure out the plot line to a Hannah Montana Episode let alone a beautifully rendered episode.

My suggestion, ignore “his kind”. Afterall, this is the type of “fan” that will protest the network whenever a show, they claim to like, puts out an episode they just don’t understand or agree with…yeah, great going ‘fan Jonas Q’. Why don’t you go buy ‘Season 1 Witches of Waverly Place’…thats a pace you can handle.

STAR TREK PHASE II is simply the best Trek product since DS9!!

=^^=
lady of shalott

309. Malcontent - June 9, 2010

C.S. Lewis

I hope making ignorant, douchey comments about everything makes you feel good about yourself, as I’m guessing you truly do not have anything better to do.

Michael

310. I'm on a Horse! - June 10, 2010

309. mia bouvier – June 9, 2010

“Those angles are consistant. You obviously have sight issues. Having mulitple shots on a scene is way of enhancing the power of a scene.”

Now they’re not. They are jumping planes. If you imagine an axis or a plane going through Kirk’s head, then Pike jumps from one side to the other side every time the camera angle changes. The lighting isn’t helpful in that case either, because in one angle Kirk’s left side is fully lit, and in the next angle his left side is entirely in shadow.

I have to agree with Jonas Q. here.

311. mia bouvier - June 10, 2010

wow, do you folk have no imagination,

1. has it ever occured to you that “lighting” can used as a way of augmenting a scene?? That means, the lighting can follow the mood of “the moment”…ever watch any Taratino films???

2. has it ever occured to you that “camera angles” can be used as a way augmenting a scene?? That means, slight divergencies are meant as a way of giving the ‘audience’ a greater view “into” the moment. Watch “Sin City” and you will see what I mean.

a director is allowed to ‘build’ the scene anyway they want. elements do not have to remain ‘static’.

good lord, the only amatuers “here” are the lazy comments from haters.

=^^=
Lady s

312. JulienBashir - June 10, 2010

LOL, wow, I’d say you should first start reading about the stuff you obviously don’t know jack shit about before INSULTING others because of their (valid) OPINION. How insecure are you that you have to do that? Obviously quite a bit, since you seem to have no idea what you are talking about.

I love New Voyages, but seriously, cinematography has NEVER been its strong side. And especially this scene looks pretty bad.

313. Larry Talbot - June 10, 2010

@313:

Well, credit (and blame) where they are due. The original Star Trek series never had fantastic cinematography either. (So if New Voyages isn’t great, it might just be because it does a good job emulating the original series.)

Cinematographers Jerry Finnerman and Al Francis had a few neat tricks with lots of colored lighting and soft focus lenses–little tricks that we Trek fans have come to know and love. But I think it’s possible that if their style were to be perfectly copied (or “aped” as Joss Whedon says about New Voyages’ cinematography), then cinematograhy still wouldn’t be considered New Voyages strong suit.

314. JulienBashir - June 10, 2010

That’s right, TOS didn’t have fantastic cinematography, but they didn’t violate/ignore basic rules like in this clip. There are some points where things went wrong, but seriously, you really should not try to emulate this.

315. Larry Talbot - June 10, 2010

@314

Yes, it looks like there’s some not great editing in this extremely rough cut. I’ts likely that in the months to come—at some point longer after the shooting of the footage than just 48 hours—the Phase II folks will probably create a good edit of this scene. I’d be surprised if their best and final attempt at editing this scene is the version they can slap together after 48 hours.

316. mia bouvier - June 10, 2010

i have always thought the cinematography for:

“The Conscience of the King”,
“Bread and Circus”,
“The Menagerie”,

as well as

“City on the Edge of Forever”

were quite lovely.

take a look at what was on the air at the same time as TOS, it is amazing that they acheived the level of work/artistry they did. there are some really, really fine moments in all of those episodes. TV’s high point during the same period was The Big Valley…and thats not saying much.

you guys are wayyyyyyyy overly harsh on New Voyages and TOS….in fact it begs to ask ‘Are you even really fans????’

=^^=
LS

was quote lovely. And what about

317. JulienBashir - June 11, 2010

Well, I guess we have a fundamentalist believer in here. “How dare you question anything, you are not a true fan!!!”

318. mia bouvier - June 11, 2010

hey 318,

fundamentalist? nope, i just enjoy Trek…period…and there are many. many fine moments in TOS as well as ST: NV in: acting, lighting, scripts, cinematography, CGI (in the Fan production), costuming, stageing, editing. Incidentally i can say the same for ST: Hidden Frontiers.

i mean if you were ‘bashing’ someone verbally this way in a relationship i would have to ask “why are you in it?”

seriously, if so much about “it” ‘upsets’ you then you are really not much of a Trek fan. i woudln’t go to a concert to see someone perform and then bitch about them all night long…thats just odd…that just comes off as some type of personal frustration that fundamentally has NOTHING to do with the series or anything related to.

=^^=
LS

319. Michael Hall - June 11, 2010

Though I was a crew member on “Origins” I wasn’t present while this scene was being filmed (as a lowly production assistant I tried to stay out of the way when I didn’t have specific duties that required me to be on-set, much as I wanted to be there), but you could hear Captain Pike shouting all the way from the Green Room.

I made it my business to read the entire script my first day on the Phase II soundstages, and my original take on the scene as written was that Bruce Greenwood’s more affable version of the character could have easily delivered the same lines. I was pretty surprised when I saw David Gerrold rehearsing the actors and had considerable doubts (as did some of the Phase II staffers I spoke with) about the over-the-top shouting, but I have to admit that the scene plays as raw and powerful, much better than I expected. It’s not Jeffrey Hunter’s Pike or Bruce Greenwood’s Pike, but rather Colin Cunningham’s take on the character. That’s fair. (Incidentally, in person Matthew Ewald is a real hoot with a great sense of humor–one on-set gag he pulled had us laughing into the night–and while Mr.Cunningham ain’t exactly my cup of tea personally, as an actor he definitely delivers the goods.) Add in Phase II’s usual attention to detail, fan-pleasing historical continuity and some brilliant casting of well-loved characters and I have high hopes that “Origins” will be a standout episode.

320. JulienBashir - June 11, 2010

319. mia bouvier – June 11, 2010

You enjoy Trek so much that you insult anyone who criticizes it. That is fundamentalist alright.

“i mean if you were ‘bashing’ someone verbally this way in a relationship i would have to ask “why are you in it?”

So it’s a relationship now? It’s just a TV show!

321. Trek Ahead - June 11, 2010

@ StarFuryG7 – June 8, 2010

Fine –I couldn’t care less actually. If someone is going to sit there and tell me that Chris Pine was a bad choice for Kirk and that James Cawley more accurately and acceptably fits the role and looks the part supposedly, I won’t hesitate to tell them they’re wrong. Yes, it comes down to my opinion which I have every right to be emphatic about in part, but it’s not limited to simply my opinion on the matter. The character is who he is obviously, and casting against type if that’s what’s been done also amounts to reality.

Dude, you just proved my point about fans who think they are always right, and are quick to point out how wrong others are.

You obviously have a lot of time to write on these blogs to tell people how wrong they are. Nothing in this series is based on reality. Except the version in your mind.

Here’s a suggestion, take a shower, move out of your parents basement, and get some kind of a life. You might even meet a girl!

It’s a TV show. It’s a series of movies. It’s a series fan based films.

I agree that everyone has the right to voice an opinion. So try not to hyperventilate when someone offers an opinion that you feel is “wrong”.

It’s a TV show. It’s a series of movies. It’s a series fan based films.

That’s just my opinion.

322. mia bouvier - June 11, 2010

“321. JulienBashir – June 11, 2010

-You enjoy Trek so much that you insult anyone who criticizes it. That is fundamentalist alright.”

317- Mia Bouvier

-Nope, I don’t insult anyone. I am just “calling out” those who are doing the insulting to all the fine work that so many great folk have put into such an awesome show. YOU are the one that is doing the insulting mister, not me.

You know, James C was graitcious enough to show us abit of what they are working on and all some of you guys can do is bash, bash, bash. I have a suggestion for you: film your own episode and post it, let’s see how well YOU do…afterall, you as well as many on here, seem to claim complete knowledge of of what Trek should or shouldnt be about.

……….
317. Mia Bouvier-June 11, 2010

-i mean if you were ‘bashing’ someone verbally this way in a relationship i would have to ask “why are you in it?”

321. JulienBashir – June 11, 2010

-So it’s a relationship now? It’s just a TV show!

317- Mia Bouvier

Three points:

1. Trek has always been about relationships, whether it is between the characters/actors on stage or the fan base or the prouduction staff. It’s a TV show yes, but those are real actors, real directors script writers and so forth.

2. While it is true that ‘it’ is ‘just a TV show!’ your comments, as well as many from the pulpit, are simply mean spirited and rude. Many of “you guys” make these HUGE blanketted statements like “no good cinematography” that simply is not true. You paint with a wide brush stroke and just go across the canvas…THAT is an insult to all those fine folk involved in those productions.

3. Also, your attempt to belittle my comments by the use of “its just a TV show” can be aimed right back at you. Afterall, YOU are the one that was venting first and complaining about this and complaining about that. Seems like YOU are the one with the issues, not myself.

=^^=
LS

323. StarFuryG7 - June 11, 2010

#322. Trek Ahead
“It’s a TV show. It’s a series of movies. It’s a series fan based films.
That’s just my opinion.”

In my opinion you’re in absolutely no position to be preaching about ‘fans bashing fans’ given the kind of over-the-line commentary you chose to resort to in your above post. People have a right to an opinion and to even express it emphatically in the face of others who choose to believe and argue otherwise, but you on the other hand chose to engage in uncalled for personal insults by comparison, which is a whole other matter and not comparable therefore to what you chose to criticize me for the other day, and that makes you worse than a hypocrite.

Yes, I’m a “Star Trek” fan obviously and have been one all of my life –beyond that I don’t owe you any explanations about my life and personal business, which is quite obviously none of yours. We’re here to discuss something of common interest or we wouldn’t be here obviously, so take your stupid character assassination and personal insults elsewhere if that’s really too much for you to handle.

Have a nice day.

324. Dennis Bailey - June 11, 2010

#322: “It’s a TV show. It’s a series of movies. It’s a series fan based films.

That’s just my opinion.”

All anyone here has is opinions – no one is “right” about issues of taste.

325. MJ - June 11, 2010

This is horrid!!!

326. Alec Peters - June 12, 2010

Well, hopefully you are referring to some of the nonsense here!

I now sit in an airport after 2 weeks on set. I can tell you, as someone that has never liked fan films (with New Voyages always being the best of the lot) that my turning point was the Sulu episode “World Enough and Time”.

But I can tell you that the new stuff that will be coming out, including “Kitumba” and “Origins” are way ahead of ANYTHING any fan film has ever produced. James & Co. keep raising the game. I never would have signed on to help James if I didn’t think the trajectory of the production was heading in the right direction.

While the nit-pickers will complain about anything, 99% of fans will love what is coming out. As 4 million downloads keeps proving….

Alec

327. StarFuryG7 - June 12, 2010

325. Dennis Bailey
All anyone here has is opinions – no one is “right” about issues of taste.”

But there is a “right” and a “wrong” when it comes to casting — that’s why you hear terms like “miscast” and phrases such “casting against type”.

When casting a role like Kirk, James Cawley simply does not fit the bill obviously. People can like what he brings to the Web as fan-based, fan-made material, but that doesn’t mean he’s right for the role. In terms of casting, he’s closer to Pike than to Kirk.

328. mia bouvier - June 12, 2010

“327 Alec

While the nit-pickers will complain about anything, 99% of fans will love what is coming out. As 4 million downloads keeps proving….

Alec”

Yes!! there may a handful on here complaining but thise 4 million downloads till the big truth…and that is:

ST: New Voyages Rockz!!

I have seen some of the early clips coming out of those new episodes and the ‘rushes’ are awesome!!!

“World Enough and Time” and “Blood and Fire” are better than alot of the stuff coming out of the sy/fy channel aaaand better than some recent sy/fy films I have seen. And the CGI/editing/script???!! Are you kidding??!! The last three episodes from ST: NV were great!

i dont know what “alternate” reality some of the fans on this board are in, but in this time-line, fan productions are sah-wet!!

=^^=
LS

329. David Gerrold - June 12, 2010

Nature abhors a vacuum. So do human beings. When we don’t have facts, we make stuff up to fill the not-knowing.

There is much much more to this episode than this one scene reveals. Matthew Ewald has enormous range as an actor and in the course of this episode shows commitment, anger, tenderness, love, annoyance, passion, frustration, fear, cockiness, wisdom, personal self-examination, growth, and finally pride of accomplishment — and a little more cockiness. There’s a wistful moment at the end of this story that I think represents one of the best storytelling moments Phase II has ever done.

Was Colin Cunningham’s performance as Pike over the top? You won’t know until you see what young Kirk did in the transporter room. Why was young Kirk ‘quivering?’ You won’t know until you see everything else that happened previously.

What about Spock, Scotty, Bones, Carol Marcus, Finnegan, Gary Mitchell, Doctor Boyce, Engineer Pitcairn, and Number One? Well, they all have their good moments here too. This is the episode that we most wanted to see — so we made it ourselves.

Filmmaking is a process of making decisions and trying to make all your decisions fit a consistent story arc. Sometimes you make the right decisions, sometimes not. Sometimes you make compromises. Many times the actors find things in the script that make it better. Ultimately, any flim — even the very best — is a collection of compromises, choices, adjustments, and good intentions, in the hope that passion and enthusiasm will somehow triumph over the obstinacy of the physical universe.

What Phase II demonstrates is the impressive love and commitment that some people have for classic Trek. What this thread reveals is how much love the audience still has for classic Trek.

But what is much more important — in my not-so-humble-opinion — is that if we can step back from the minutiae and the details and our concerns about canon and casting, acting and editing, we can remember that much more importantly, Star Trek is about seeking out new life and new civilizations, exploring strange new worlds, and boldly going where no one has gone before.

From the very beginning, Star Trek has always been an attempt to consider the question, ‘what does it mean to be a human being?’ The best and most memorable stories of the show have always been challenges to our complacency — opportunities to recognize that the universe is full of wonder and surprises.

The production values and acting on the original series were occasionally (often) uneven — the show had less than $200,000 per episode to work with, but the incredibly talented crew of people who made it happen still gave us hortas and gorns and a city on the edge of forever, a doomsday machine, a corbomite maneuver, and a prime directive. They gave us things that have lived in our dreams for four decades. Vulcans and tribbles and the greatest starship in SF history.

That Phase II aspires to the same challenge is grounds for applause. Few other video series, amateur or professional, have set their standards that high.

All of the criticism here — I don’t see it as evidence of failure, I see it as evidence of how much the fans want Phase II to live up to the challenge.

Speaking from of my own experience, the passion, enthusiasm, and commitment of the people who show up for the Phase II shoots, has been unmatched by any other crew I have worked with, including many professional crews. It is impossible not to fall in love with them.

For the record, I am paid only my expenses. Nevertheless, I will always take time out of my working schedule (currently three books, two scripts, and a column for maximumpconline.com) to support Phase II, because of James Cawley and all the good people who have made Phase II possible. Who wouldn’t want a chance to go back to the Enterprise, even if only for a brief moment of magic?

330. Mister Landmark - June 13, 2010

The love and enthusiasm all of the Phase II folks show for their project is awe-inspiring. Of particular note are all those dedicated folks who take time out of their busy work schedules to attend the shoot, fly clear across the country (if not halfway across the world), secure loding and food for two weeks and then *don’t* get those expenses paid. Instead of going the extra light year, those are the folks who have really gone the extra parsec in the name of Star Trek.

331. JulienBashir - June 13, 2010

“The production values and acting on the original series were occasionally (often) uneven — the show had less than $200,000 per episode to work with, but the incredibly talented crew of people who made it happen still gave us hortas and gorns and a city on the edge of forever, a doomsday machine, a corbomite maneuver, and a prime directive. They gave us things that have lived in our dreams for four decades. Vulcans and tribbles and the greatest starship in SF history.”

That’s 1.3 million per episode today. I wouldn’t say that’s a low budget. TOS was expensive and state of the art at its time.

332. David Gerrold - June 13, 2010

#332 I was there. Were you?

Look, everybody’s entitled to an opinion on anything they want to have an opinion about — but I think that the informed opinions of those who were actually in the meetings and on the sets might have a little bit more weight.

But that’s just my opinion.

333. mia bouvier - June 13, 2010

What is this axe that some folk seem to want to grind???

I remember there were something like over 35,000 posts on New Voyages Forum concering BaF and every so often one random person would get on there and spew…

…those kinds of random comments always caught me by surprise and left me wondering ‘why is this person even watching these episodes?’

I still think “those kinds” of negative comments have much more below the surface level then a simple grip.

Btw: David G, your involvement with ST: NV is such a wonderfull gift of your personal time and energy…there are many of us out here that truly thank you from the bottom of our hearts!!

=^^=
LS

334. Adam Collings - June 13, 2010

Wow, I am really curious about what Kirk did now.

335. Allen Williams - June 14, 2010

I just saw what james cawley said about this site, and i agree with him not just about this site, but with star trek fans in general. I watch and love all the star trek incarnations.

Out of 700+ episodes there are only a couple that I absolutely hate. VGR – Threshold, TNG – Code of honor, maybe a couple others. Other than that I love star trek and everything that it stands for. I particularly loved enterprise. Yet everytime i turned around i heard people complain about it left and right. To me enterprise was closer to the Roddenberry vision of star trek than any other (at least the first 2 seasons)

While i had many problems with the new movie, i generally loved it. I know someone that hates the whole thing solely because they refused to reset back to canon after the movie was over. I on the other problem have no problem accepting 2 seperate universes.

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