Jennifer Lien Reflects On Her Time With Star Trek Voyager |
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Jennifer Lien Reflects On Her Time With Star Trek Voyager August 10, 2010

by Staff , Filed under: Celebrity,VOY , trackback

As noted in the TrekMovie write-up on the Star Trek: Voyager panel at the Star Trek convention in Las Vegas, Jennifer Lien (Kes) made a rare con appearance, but didn’t really say much on stage. Lied did speak to the official Star Trek site and talked a bit about her time on Voyager and her preferred ‘exit’ episode.


Lien on Voyager

Lien reflects on her time with Voyager:

I had a good time. It went on after I left and continued, but my time was great. I have no complaints. I have no regrets. Everything worked out the way it should have. Everything happens for a reason. So I don’t look back and say it should have been like this or it should have been like that. I’m perfectly at peace and content with my life. I don’t live in the past and I don’t wish anything were different.

Lien also felt that the season four episode "The Gift" was the better of her two exit episodes, compared to the season six episode "Fury", noting:

I didn’t think “Fury” was acted as well as “The Gift.” There were a lot of poor acting choices on my part. I wasn’t really thinking as creatively as I could have with my acting choices. So I’m not really proud of that one, but I was very grateful that they asked me back and that I got to see everyone I’d worked with.

Much more from Lien on seeing her cast mates at the Trek con, and what she is up to these days at  

Lien with Voyager co-star Garrett Wang at Star Trek Convention – August 7 (Photo: Kayla Iacovino)


1. DJ Neelix - August 10, 2010

I loved that woman.

2. DJ Neelix - August 10, 2010

I love her voice.

3. DJ Neelix - August 10, 2010

Ahem, sorry for the spam there. I meant to write “I loved that woman’s voice” but things didn’t turn out quite the way I planned.

Now she really looks… old.

4. KJTrek - August 10, 2010

I always thought that Kes was a cheesy character, although Lien’s acting was good. But what happened to her? She hasn’t exactly aged gracefully…

5. Damian - August 10, 2010

#2–She did have a cool, soothing voice. She played a good character and I would have been fine if she had stayed on the whole 7 years.

6. Dalek - August 10, 2010

#4 There were rumours about Lien after she left Voyager which I will not go into on here in case they can be misinterpreted as liabel. But if the rumours were true it would explain why she hasn’t aged gracefully!

7. TMMW (formerly TrekMadeMeWonder) - August 10, 2010

That’s not her in the photo…





…It just can’t be.

8. Dom - August 10, 2010

To be honest, it could be that the camera’s catching her at a bad angle, not helped by a the shapeless clothes and the glasses! Also, remember Voyager debuted 16 years ago. I was 19 then. I’m 36 in a few months. Time flies and we all get older, for all the conveniences of moisturiser, botox and cosmetic surgery!!

9. P Technobabble - August 10, 2010

“Why, oh, why,” he asked naively, “are some people compelled to comment on her appearance, or Shatner’s, or whoever…?”
Really, it’s not a big deal. Everyone changes, everyone goes through changes, everyone looks different over time. Anyone walking up to you saying, “My God, what happened to you??” or “Geez, you look old.” You probably wouldn’t like it if they did, hm?

10. Dom - August 10, 2010

So who is everyone in the photo?

I didn’t recognise Jennifer Lien at first, Garett Wang, Tim Russ and Robert Picardo are obvious, but what of the others?

11. Red Dead Ryan - August 10, 2010


Its the internet. Because no one knows who anybody is online, there are no consequences for being an a**hole. Its a sad fact of reality these days.

12. Captain Braxton - August 10, 2010

wow….i bet the guy who married her now wishes he could get a refund!

reminds me of my high school reunion. all the girls who were hot in school were horrifficly obese and unrecognizable. american women only last until about 24-25 then just crash and burn.

go with an asian woman and you’ll never be disappointed.

13. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

10, they are Ethan Phillips (“Neelix”) and Scarlett Pomers (“Naomi Wildman”).

12, how is that even remotely true? Jeri Ryan looks awesome. Meryl Streep looks awesome. Angelie Jolie looks awesome. It has nothing to do with race. Nothing.

I hope you were kidding, 12.

14. Horatio - August 10, 2010

I don’t see the big deal in commenting on Jennifer Lien’s appearance. Lets face it, she doesn’t look anything like Kes anymore and none of us have seen her in all these years. There’s bound to be a shock factor. That doesn’t take anything away from her or her work on Voyager for that matter.

I love Shatner. His gut is getting larger – you can’t help but notice – but it doesn’t change anything. In an industry where appearance often trumps ability I think its great that Shatner doesn’t give a damn.

15. Dom - August 10, 2010

11 Red Dead Ryan

It’s partly that and it’s also the first time in our history that everyone who’s alive has existed in an era where their era has been filmed. Our airwaves are ‘haunted’ by dead people as the material for archive channels multiplies exponentially every year, while the people in the shows get very old and die.

I watch Star Trek and find it hard to believe that Deforest Kelley and James Doohan are dead and that William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy will soon be 80.

Garrett Wang and Jennifer Lien appear on stage as they are now and it’s a shock, because they’re on TV channels globally 24/7 eternally playing young characters.They still are young, but 16 years changes a lot in people, not just in terms of body image, but life experience.

You’re right: people on the web are cruel in their anonymity. People are used to seeing actors age only within certain eras.

How long before actors become so conscious of their image that they stop appearing at awards ceremonies and only appear in CGI-enhanced video messages?

16. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

^^ Jennifer shouldn’t give more of a damn than Shatner does, then, but unfortunately, Hollywood is more judgmental about female appearances than male.

As I said, people like Brando could still get great leading roles despite their non-leading character appearances, but when was the last time you saw a slightly less-than-perfect-looking leading lady? Kirstie Alley in recent years and the actress in “Misery” (Kathy Bates) are kind of an exception, as is Gabourey Sidibe.

That said, there’s still no reason Lien can’t get a decent Hollywood role. After all, Kirstie Alley did. So did the actress who played Ferris Bueller’s principal’s secretary.

17. Captain Braxton - August 10, 2010


it has everything to do with race, moron. you clearly have never been to asia so don’t even bother commenting on things you know nothing about. obesity is an epidemic in this country, mostly affecting whites and blacks. a recent report found that up to 70% of americans are overweight. if you think that is attractive, than that is your preference but any doctor will agree that it is not healthy.

18. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

Chill, 17. What’s with the hostility? I’m pretty sure most people disagree with you that American chicks generally become repulsive at 25.

Besides, in Trek, human races don’t matter.

19. boomer13 - August 10, 2010

You know what it makes me ill reading some of the comments towards Jennifer Lien. We age. So What?
I am sure they are many less Brad Pitts here?
How would you like to be picked on from 10 years ago? We get bald, we get fat….but we all should not lose our class.

20. bonesclcw - August 10, 2010

It is mean to judge someone for the way they have aged, but I will judge her on her outfit choice. Why would anyone where that white shirt to a public event!

21. weyoun_9 - August 10, 2010

@12/17 – “Race” as you feel it so necessary to use as a factor in this increasingly offensive discussion about obesity, is much more of a social construct than a truly genetic one. It is more likely in many cases that a Caucasian person will have more genetically in common with someone who’s skin is a different color.

The media and the nature of the Hollywood “biz” has made it more socially acceptable to make flip comments about a person’s appearance and it’s unfortunate that a board with so many open minded and accepting Trekkies would feel its necessary to make these comments…especially since she made the appearance to talk to us and acknowledge our dedication to Star Trek.

Oh…and while America has an obesity problem, it can be much directly attributed to quality of life, availability and affordability of processed foods (as compared to the healthier alternatives) and lifestyle than anything having to do with true genetics.

@Jennifer Lien – Just in case you A. have read this and B. have gotten this far…thank you for being a part of the Star Trek universe, coming to speak at the convention, and please accept my apology on behalf of the majority of users for the comments made in this thread.

22. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

I will say this in case Jennifer Lien is reading this thread: Please ignore the negative comments about your appearance. They don’t matter. What matters is that you are loved for your great characterization of Kes. Your artistry has been immortalized on film.

You’ve obviously decided to move on, and that’s fine. To that I say: Onward and upward, and thanks for the memories.

Please don’t let the naysayers prevent you from coming back to interact with the fans. You were, and are, great.

23. bgdrewsif - August 10, 2010

Im guessing thats Ethan Phillips between Picardo and Russ… Scarlett Pomers (Naomi Wildman) between Garrett Wang and Russ… I just cannot believe that is Kes… looks NOTHING like her at all…

24. Victor Hugo - August 10, 2010

Gosh, how can someone jump from 20 to 60 in 10 years??

She needs Zoe Saldana´s DIET right away.

25. P Technobabble - August 10, 2010

We can always find examples of how unEnlightened the human species is, in general. Some will say there are far more good and decent people in the world, but I look at the mess the world is in and question whether that is true or not.
It might be viewed that a negative comment is no big deal, even in this era of so-called “political correctness.” But the FACT that there are people who casually make negative, or even inconsiderate comments is, I believe, an indication of where we are — mentally and emotionally — as a supposedly intelligent species.
And, yes, we can find consideration, kindness and compassion in the world… but not nearly enough. Until every human being is moved to be considerate, kind and compassionate toward every other human being (and even the world of Nature), there will always be conflict on Earth, and there will always be human beings hurt by other human beings — whether mentally, emotionally, or physically.
A world of hurt and conflict is NOT the kind of world Star Trek beckons us to. As a famous Capt. once said, “I dare you to do better…”

26. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

^^ 25, that is quite true. I think that all great religions teach us to be compassionate and thoughtful toward others, but how often we fail to comply in our acts and words!

Trek DOES dare us to do better. That’s one of our fundamental strengths as a species — we can make ourselves better than who we are.

All too often, we fall short, and that’s a shame.

How difficult is it to remember that beauty is only skin deep, but meanness is through and through?

Conversely, Mother Teresa was not physically attractive, but her creed and her acts were beautiful things.

I am old enough to remember when the phrase “beautiful” meant more than just physical appearance. It meant inner beauty — the inner light. I wish more of us could remember this idealism of the past.

It was a beautiful thing.

27. DJ Neelix - August 10, 2010

Personally, when I said that she now looked old compared to the last time we saw her, what I really was referring to was the fact she really seems to have let go. I’m talking about outfit, hairstyle and make-up (lack of, that is). And yes, she doesn’t seem to be working out much, either. I’m certain she could look like a hot 35-year-old if she really wanted to, but she obviously couldn’t care less about her appearance. In other words, I don’t think that there’s any feelings to hurt on this matter.

I’m sure she could have continued a successful career, but she obviously doesn’t have any need for that. A shame for the rest of us though, as she is a fine actress with the most wonderful voice and I’d cast her any day.

28. DJ Neelix - August 10, 2010

@26. Hat Rick – August 10, 2010
“Conversely, Mother Teresa was not physically attractive, but her creed and her acts were beautiful things.”

Um, yeah right.

I recommend you to read this book:

29. Dr. Image - August 10, 2010

Great actress. But she had problems.
Hell, don’t we all?

30. Joel1245 - August 10, 2010

Wow, Lien has really let herself go. I don’t even recognize her in that photo next to Wang. Getting older is one thing. Letting yourself go is another!

31. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

28, there are always revisionists. Without even clicking on your link, I’m aware of her detractors. But they are hardly the last word.

A fellow by the name of Hitchens, for example, wrote “God is Not Great,” an indictment of religion. Should that mean that all religions are horrible Ironically, Hitchens’ own brother holds an opposite position to his.

I’ve come to realize that if you mention anyone who is inspirational on the Internet, there will be those who will mention their detractors. Albert Schweitzer? He had some politically incorrect words about African people. The genius, Nikola Tesla? Self-imposed hermit, apparently. Charles Lindberg? Wasn’t he a Nazi? (No, he wasn’t.)

If you will, take the Teresa reference for its intended meaning.

32. DJ Neelix - August 10, 2010

@31. Hat Rick – August 10, 2010

LOL, it was the very same Hitchens wrote that particular book I linked to.

How does it matter what his brother’s opinion is? Completely irrelevant as to whether something is true or not.

Sure, and there are people that say good things about Adolf Hitler too. Benito Mussolini still has his fans. And we all know how popular Saddam Hussein was amongst a large portion of the Iraqi people. So, obviously there are always two side of every story.

But that’s beside the point. What matter is what is true and what is not. What they did and what they said – on record. I have seen a lot of footage with Mother Teresa and to me it is obvious that she was one opportunistic cold-hearted… [insert well-known calling for evil women here]. I don’t like what she stood for, but some people do like it and most people just have no idea who she really was. That’s all there is to it.

33. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

I know, 32. I know. Hitchens, who has also made the news recently.

You and I will differ on the Teresa thing. Maybe she’s what the Hitch says she is, maybe she’s not. You know, I haven’t read much of the material against her, and maybe it’s because I don’t want to know. So you may have more of a point than I’ve conceded.

But I also want to add one thing, and perhaps this is most important of all, if we’re going to mention controversial figures. This has to do with Lindbergh, who at no point was an actual Nazi. But I think it is widely stated that he had white supremacist and, beyond that, American supremacist ideas, and his attitude toward other “races” was what diminished his standing among the public. I mention this because I see so much racialism in the America of 2010 — racial references on the sly, by people who should know better than to play with fire, on both sides, on both the left and the right. It saddens me that this country is diminishing itself, and that there is no one apparently that is capable of reversing the national course toward incivility and distrust.

The fact that Lindbergh was never a Nazi doesn’t matter. The fact is that he made statements that verged close to Nazism to raise questions, and for legitimate reasons given that America was embroiled in world conflagrations.

I think that many Americans must have been disillusioned with the man once they heard what was said about him, an beyond that, what he himself said.

It may be that Mother Teresa was much less than was made of her, that she was a charlatan, or whatever it is that Hitchens seems to think is the case. But if that’s taken as fact, humanity has made even less progress throughout the decades than we have feared.

Sometimes it’s best just to take the reference in the way it is intended.

34. Hermioni - August 10, 2010

@22. Hat Rick – August 10, 2010
Kudos! May I call your post paradigmatic?

Sometimes, I do find it quite disheartening to see how truly difficult it seems for (many of) us to understand that we are not each other´s toys, or tools, or science projects, or punching bags…

35. Vultan - August 10, 2010

It never ceases to amaze me how some STAR TREK fans can be so judgemental and vacuous. I wish I could say that the human race has advanced by some degree since the show first hit the airwaves in 1966—and thankfully there have been some improvements in civil rights—but the only major social advancements I can see are those in technology and telecommunications. Sadly, perhaps because of these rapid advancements, brains have gotten smaller along with phones, and manners are now all but a curious vestige of the Victorian era.

Here’s to you, Gene. You set a point on the horizon and tried to show a better path. But the kids are still spinning their wheels…

36. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

34, thank you! Yes you may, and I hope Thomas Kuhn would be proud! :-)

If Trek stands for anything, it stands for the fact that we are all united as one — one race, humanity, and one people, on behalf of all of us, whether weak or strong. It is sad when we do not live up to our ideals.

Now, I am aware that there are those who take Cochrane’s view, early in First Contact, when he disparaged the idea that he was ever as idealistic as history made him up to be. He claimed that his only ideal was money, to get his own private island, to live with beautiful girls in a life of luxury.

And yet, he succeeded in spite of himself. He succeeded despite adversity and despite his own human shortcomings. With a lot of help.

We should all learn that lesson, I think. And we should all support others if we can so that they may succeed, as well, because, trite as it may be to say, we are all in this together, and none of us are perfect.

37. Enterprisingguy - August 10, 2010

I would have loved to have heard what she had to say regardless of how she appears now. I always wondered about her changed hair in the last season. No mention was ever made about the new color or style. I wondered if that was her actual hair. If so, it was as gorgeous as her voice.

I choose not to take a swipe at her appearance and will simply thank her for all she’s done for TREK and wish her well!

38. DJ Neelix - August 10, 2010

@33. Hat Rick – August 10, 2010
“Sometimes it’s best just to take the reference in the way it is intended.”

At least it would have been the most convenient for you, perhaps. But I happen to care about facts and usually don’t steer away from a topic just because it’s inconvenient.

Don’t know much about Lindbergh, but I do know that no one is perfect. There’s also a huge difference of someone’s opinions when they don’t really effect people, and with someone’s actions when they have a very powerful position. Which anti-semite is the most dangerous, Mel Gibson or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? I would certainly say the latter.

Well well, time for bed now :)

39. Dom - August 10, 2010

Christopher Hitchens talks like a bigot and a Trotskyite. He’s part of the New Atheism movement along with Richard Dawkins, a silly scientist who would be much better sticking to science than using being mean to religious people as a way to get on talk shows.

New Atheism’s founding principle is to destroy all religious belief. The Missionary Position is written by one of it’s founders. New Atheism and its acolytes are little different from people in extremist branches of religions.

Historically, destroying respect for revered figures and ridiculing everything for which they have stood has been a classic way of gaining power. It worked particularly well in countries like the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany!

Goebbels used similar tactics to Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins and we all know what great examples of human rights atheist states such as Mao’s China and Stalin’s Soviet Union have been!

Maybe not everything about Mother Teresa was perfect (she was a human being after all!) but material written by an author behind a radical movement as dangerous to society as any extremist religion has to be taken with a huge vat of salt!

Take away Dawkins’ or Christopher Hitchens’ hands and you have another Abu Hamza. They’re preachers of hate!

40. Elmo - August 10, 2010

These people that keeping making remarks about actors’ physical appearances remind me of school in the summer. No Class.

41. Allen Williams - August 10, 2010

I think its more shock than anything else over her. She doesn’t look older than she should and she doesn’t look fat. She just looks different. I wouldn’t have known that was her if it wasn’t for the captions.

42. Vultan - August 10, 2010


Good one! :D

43. Vultan - August 10, 2010


“At least it would have been the most convenient for you, perhaps. But I happen to care about facts and usually don’t steer away from a topic just because it’s inconvenient.”

Never saw The Dark Knight, eh?

44. DJ Neelix - August 10, 2010

39. Dom – August 10, 2010

On a side note, you do know that Hitler claimed to be a catholic during his leadership don’t you? And that he used the German’s Christianity as a tool to turn them against the Jewish people? And that the teachings of Martin Luther (which is the basis for most of western Christianity), who amongst other awful things wrote this book:

No, I guess you didn’t know that since you keep reading one book over and over again instead of reading something else and actually start looking for knowledge. I really wonder what you see in Star Trek since it goes against everything you stand for. Star Trek was Gene’s vision and we all know what he thought and felt about religion.

And Richard Dawkins is perhaps the most un-stridant, humble debater that is. And he has never been mean to anyone, it’s hardly his fault that the truth hurts so much for some people. And by truth I am referring to scientific facts, because that is all he is referring to.

Now, can we please stop this discussion, I sincerely doubt well get any where with this.

45. DJ Neelix - August 10, 2010

@43. Vultan – August 10, 2010
“Never saw The Dark Knight, eh?”

As a matter of fact I did once, but I don’t get the reference…

46. Phil - August 10, 2010

Good lord, people, for everyone who has commented on appearance, seriously, if you met her in an elevator, would you ask why she was fat, frumpy, or whatever? Of course not, it’s rude at best and mean at worst. Honestly, if she is happy at this point in her life, more power to her!! Jennifer, these folks need you a whole lot more then you need them, and frankly, with fans like this, who needs critics…

47. P Technobabble - August 10, 2010

It is truly interesting to see the turn a conversation like this can take, hm?
It seems to me human beings tend to be very reductive in their thinking, trying to reduce everything to some single point to be made. Yet, in attempting this, we wind up traveling through layers and layers of information (true or false), opinions, attitudes, and so forth, and then we’re completely side-tracked by all the layers we’re trying to cut through.

In the end, it’s simply about compassion. If everyone does it, then everyone receives it. If only some people do it, then it’s hit and miss as to whether or not you receive it. And if no one does it, then no one receives it.

48. British Naval Dude - August 10, 2010


I always wondered hows they’d progress Kes, who lives seven years, as tha’ series ran… But oof’ she went.
That last season eppie-sode wuz’ A. Grand ta’ see her again and age as she wuz’ written ta’ and B. Not a real bonny eppie-sode… but ye’ can have fun watchin’ her trash tha’ halls…

And a part o’ her wuz’ always thar’ as Neelix had her lung… how comes he didda’ not sound better then?


49. OLLEY OLLEY OLLEY - August 10, 2010

@ 46. Phil
Well said!
I would add that the comments by the shallow posters reflect more about that particular poster rather than the intended target.

50. Vultan - August 10, 2010


The Dark Knight showed us that the truth can sometimes be more detrimental than a lie in a society. If the people of Gotham City had known the truth about Harvey Dent/Two-Face, it would’ve caused more harm than good, meaning they would’ve lost faith in their so-called “white knight.” With Batman taking the blame for the deaths, he solidified Dent’s reputation as a good and honest man of the people and created a martyr instead of another tarnished public figure. Thus, Batman and Gordon’s lie defeated the Joker’s plans to destroy faith and spread nihilism and anarchy through the already decaying moral foundation of Gotham City’s society.

I know this is all fiction, but you were ballyhooing the works of Hitchens and Dawkins anyway… so I naturally assumed any fictional reference was appropriate. ;)

51. Dom - August 10, 2010

44. DJ Neelix: ‘On a side note, you do know that Hitler claimed to be a catholic during his leadership don’t you?’

He was a half-Jew with one bollock! Hitler’s interest was race, rather than religion, rooted in some wild black magic and mythological tales.

‘And that he used the German’s Christianity as a tool to turn them against the Jewish people?’

Historically, sadly there were constant battles with the Jews, usually rooted in jealousy of them because they’re so incredibly talented! Goebbels helped turn the tide of resentment in post-war Germany using the media, portraying Jews as and guys. Sadly such portrayals have often been the case, be it Shakespeare or Dickens. If you think Christianity was the sole cause of the holocaust, then you need to go to library, my friend!

‘And that the teachings of Martin Luther (which is the basis for most of western Christianity), who amongst other awful things wrote this book:’

Yes, thank you DJ Neelix, I have heard of Wikipedia! Perhaps you would have preferred the Reformation never happened! Then you could be yelling at me for saying the world isn’t flat! Martin Luther’s writings were of their time and reflect that. Some is wonderful and some is repugnant! One way or another, some of Luther’s writings were vastly important to the foundation of much that is good in the world today.

‘No, I guess you didn’t know that since you keep reading one book over and over again instead of reading something else and actually start looking for knowledge.’

Um . . . exsqueeze me but what are you on about? What book? And where did that gormless, bitchy paragraph come from? You don’t know squat about me! I’m from a journalistic background. I’ve probably already read ten times what you’ll read in your entire lifetime! Now please put your rattle back in your cot!

‘I really wonder what you see in Star Trek since it goes against everything you stand for.’

Exploring the universe. Gunboat diplomacy. Meeting cool new people. Learning about stuff. Hot green skinned women! Nothing in most religions or atheism precludes that. New Atheism does though, because aliens might believe in a god, so New Atheism will refuse to talk to them! :p

‘Star Trek was Gene’s vision and we all know what he thought and felt about religion.’

Star Trek was the creation of many people. Christianity wasn’t portrayed as an evil in Star Trek. It was clear in dialogue that Kirk and possibly Uhura were Christians. Kirk means Church. Gene Roddenberry’s views had changed by the late-1980s. That doesn’t mean his views before were wrong. Then again, Star Trek was about open-mindedness and learning while TNG was about telling people what to do! Interesting that you’re trying to keep people who don’t share your opinion away from Star Trek!

‘And Richard Dawkins is perhaps the most un-stridant, humble debater that is. And he has never been mean to anyone, it’s hardly his fault that the truth hurts so much for some people.’

Richard Dawkins is extremely aggressive and his arrogance is as renowned as is his lack of historical knowledge. He refuses to debate with anyone who disagrees with his views. When he made ‘The Root of All Evil’ he purposefully removed any material that contradicted his opinions. Several deleted contributors to the programme made a point of informing the press of that! Have you ever heard him on the Today programme? The man has an ego that could light up the national grid!

‘And by truth I am referring to scientific facts, because that is all he is referring to.’

No. Books like ‘The God Delusion’ are built out of the most vulgar stereotypes you’d expect from an ivory tower academic who has no real knowledge of the everyday world. By his standards, people who have tea with the vicar after Sunday service and deliver Christmas parcels to the poor and elderly are the same as suicide bombing fanatics. The introduction to the paperback edition of that book dismisses anyone who reviewed the book badly as ‘God botherers!’ He’s a petty silly scientist who should stick to memes rather than get a side income by slagging off people’s beliefs to get himself appearances on Channel Four! Then again, if he was merely a scientist, he wouldn’t be famous and making money appearing on TV! Give me the good mannered, intelligent discussion of the charming agnostic scientist Carl Sagan anytime!

‘Now, can we please stop this discussion, I sincerely doubt well get any where with this.’

Well, you’re the one who started spitting hate at religious figures and claiming people who believe in God can’t understand Star Trek! I sincerely respect people’s right to an opinion. You obviously don’t!

52. John from Cincinnati - August 10, 2010

Jennifer Lien! You poor thing! My heart goes out to you and I wish you all the best!

53. TMMW (formerly TrekMadeMeWonder) - August 10, 2010

Well I’d still do her. In a second.

Is there any video of this panel?

54. Al Hartman - August 10, 2010

I enjoyed Jennifer on Voyager and in the M.I.B. Cartoon.

I wish her well in life. Many of the Trek actors appearances have changed. Jimmy Doohan in the movies looked nothing like his TOS character, except in TMP.

Scarlet Pomers has grown into a beautiful young lady.

Leonard Nimoy has changed a lot too.

That’s just life.

I hope rumors that she had a rough time are false. I hope Jennifer is healthy and happy.

55. Anthony Thompson - August 10, 2010


You take Jennifer. I’ll take Scarlett.

56. CmdrR - August 10, 2010

Wow, some rude folks in here.
I hope you understand that “manners” aren’t just something your grandparents used to have. If we are going to get to the stars, we are going to have to work together on Earth and in the close quarters of space. Manners are basic equipment, folks. Taking snark shots at people who look different at 34 than they did at 20… is below infantile. It’s a huge obstacle to getting to the world of Trek we all love so much.

IDIC, please.

Hell, even I looked thin at 20 and you should see my fat ass now!

57. C.S. Lewis - August 10, 2010

21. weyoun_9 – August 10, 2010

@12/17 – “Race” as you feel it so necessary to use as a factor in this increasingly offensive discussion about obesity, is much more of a social construct than a truly genetic one. It is more likely in many cases that a Caucasian person will have more genetically in common with someone who’s skin is a different color.


Dear weyoun,

As much as I admire your intention, your science is woefully outdated. As any physician, police detective or practicing anthropologist can tell you — let alone any farmer or animal breeder — the science of “race” is amazingly clear: DNA matters. A lot. And it’s the tiniest difference — as with all things on earth — that set apart the winners from the losers.

Why do you think brand-names matter? How much time do typical Americans agonize over the exactly correct breed of dog? Probably as much as some here spend dissecting fictional “science” that is confused in their minds with the real kind.

And race is not only identifiable by any number of measurements (not only DNA but tooth count, bone structure/thickness, disease susceptibility, success in life, behavioural norms, psychological predispositions and on and on and on. There is even new research that demonstrates Europeans and Asians have substantial complements of Neanderthal genes, whereas the African peoples lack it entirely. (Google it – a fascinating study.)

(Actually, “breed” would be a better word — or even resurrecting the old fashioned meaning of “race” that meant what we today call “ethnicity” — as opposed to the over-simplified color-scheme that serves as both red-herring and straw man argument in the egalitarian project that engulfed the capitalist world in the pursuit of profit via interchangeable people… )

In any event, if we are to have heterogeneous populations on earth, which is to say unless we decide that homogenization/mongrelization is the way to go, shouldn’t we rejoice in our differences? Whatever happened to “May the best man win”?

I am not afraid of race/ethnicity/breed and the implications of same. Quite the contrary, I relish and delight in them. And yes, I am as proud of my Anglo-Saxon/Norman heritage as any bonafide Yankee can be. You too ought to be proud of your heritage, whatever it be!

On the other hand, the only social construct that has meaning to us in this life is the censorial construct of political egalitarianism which is responsible for hundreds of millions of murdered people, all in the name of unity and progress. There is not the race war ever fought with such a bloody record as state-enforced internationalism and conformity.

C.S. Lewis

58. Anthony Thompson - August 10, 2010


I remember when all the right-wing blowhards predicted that the Communists would never give up power without bloodshed. And yet, when the Soviet Union and Eastern European nations chose a different economic and social system there was virtually no bloodshed. It was a peaceful hand-over of power. I wonder if the same would be true if our rotting capitalist system were to ever be seriously challenged?

59. bo - August 10, 2010


60. Bucky - August 10, 2010

I don’t care if she’s gained weight, she just looks downright sad in all the photos. I hope she’s at least happy whatever she’s doing now.

61. Anthony Thompson - August 10, 2010


And don’t answer with “Tiananmen Square”. China is (and has been since the late 70’s) a state capitalist nation, not a socialist one.

62. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

Actually, I was waiting for “C. S. Lewis” to throw his hat in the ring. The real C. S. Lewis, like philosophers such as G. K. Chesterton, were they alive, would have had some words for folks like Hitchens and Dawkins, I think.

I really don’t like characterizing either Hitchens or Dawkins as radical atheists or anything else. I think their works probably speak for themselves. But I do know, or at least I think I know, that Lewis and Chesterton were Christian apologists and that they probably wouldn’t have liked the allegation that God is not great and/or is a delusion.

My feeling is that most people’s ideas of God are probably wrong or, alternatively, they are all right in some way.

It takes a lot of guts to say that there can’t be any kind of Creator. It’s sort of like saying that the past does not exist. In a way, it doesn’t. In a way, it does. Mathematically you could represent a prior point in spacetime but only if arbitrarily agree that spacetime can be defined. Mathematical recognition of something doesn’t define its actual physical existence; it can only measure it on predefined terms.

We are all really like amoeba on a microscope plate debating what lies over the edge of it. We can’t possibly know.

And so it is always rancorous to try to debate theology with most people. It’s arguing over, if a circular square could exist, what color it must be.

63. Jeffery Wright - August 10, 2010

“Lied did speak…” Freudian?

64. bill hiro - August 10, 2010

Hooray for our rotting capitalist system and all the prosperity and advances it has brought the world.

65. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

To be perfectly frank, the conflation of racial talk with criticism of egalitarianism is something I couldn’t have foreseen the real C. S. Lewis spending too much time on. I’m sorry if I have misinterpreted anyone’s writing, but the Neaderthal reference in “C. S. Lewis”‘s post is precisely a kind code for racial superiority or at least separatism I was referring to in my Lindbergh ruminations, above, used by all too many people (present company excluded) in an attempt to justify conclusions leading to racialism.

I don’t know too much about Lewis’ work, but I do think that you can think of his ideas logically. He obviously believes in the existence of God, and not just God, but some kind of universal morality. Query, if there is a universal morality, how could there be a meaningful heterogeneity of the qualities that make us human? Why is egalitarianism wrong if fundamentally we are all bound by the same morality? I think that you would have to square the circle at least a little to come up with reasoning for that.

I can see how the response might go. Universal morality does not logically necessitate homogeneity of other aspects of humanity. (This would be the “there are many breeds of dogs and therefore why not many breeds of humans” canard.) But I have yet to see reasoning that persuasively identifies actual import to the kind of differences between human “races” sufficient to rise to the level of ethical concern that, in turn, is sufficient to accord the concept of “race” anything other than biomedical interest.

There really isn’t any such discussion in public evidence, and despite the rise of the right in Britain and elsewhere, the discussion centers around the idea that egalitarianism must be bad because it is communist and communism is bad.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were created equal….”

So the Founding Fathers were clearly communists. No?

And so it goes.

66. Shunnabunich - August 10, 2010

Must say, I agree that “Fury” was a bit of a WTF. I re-watched Voyager last year (since I’d been a fair bit younger when it was airing), and it seems like the plot of that episode was:

Old Kes comes back to Voyager to open up a few cans of whoop-ass on the wall paneling because she somehow remembers the Voyager crew having mistreated her in her innocent youth. She uses power from the warp core to travel back in time to…do…um, something bad, I forget what. Then Janeway catches up with her, Kes is all “you screwed me up!”, Janeway is all “uh, no we didn’t”, and Kes is like “…oh wait, that’s right, never mind.” And everyone goes on their merry way, end of episode.

WWWHHAAAAT. Yeah, “The Gift” was a much better parting episode for her. Man, though…that sweet elf-face with such a deep, sensual voice? If that doesn’t send shivers up a dude’s spine, he’s either gay or dead. Maybe both.

67. Drij - August 10, 2010

wooh she got fat.

68. Vultan - August 10, 2010


wooh you are rude.

69. dmduncan - August 10, 2010

65: “So the Founding Fathers were clearly communists. No?”

No. Not even close. The Founders were Lockeian, which is 180 degrees away from Karl Marx and Communism.

John Adams in his own words criticizing Rousseau’s notion of egalite:

“That all men are born to equal rights is true. Every being has a right to his own, as clear, as moral, as sacred, as any other being has…But to teach that all men are born with equal powers and faculties, to equal influence in society, to equal property and advantages through life, is as gross a fraud, as glaring an imposition on the credulity of the people, as ever was practiced by monks, by Druids, by Brahmins, by priests of the immortal Lama, or by the self styled philosophers of the French Revolution.”

If Marx had been a contemporary he probably would have been in that list as well. But in effect, “communism” had been tried and had failed in Jamestown, and they knew the history of that failure.

We are equal under the law, having the same rights. That is how we are born equal. Being born equal doesn’t mean that I can run as fast as Usain Bolt in a sprint. I can’t. I’m athletic, but I won’t be breaking any world records in the sprint. That’s reality. Any practice that consistently ignores reality is either stupid or unjust, and in many cases probably both at the same time.

In the context of Star Trek, what that means is that while I may opine on this site about the things I would like to see in the next movie, and while Bob may even be influenced here and there by something I’ve said (fingers crossed), I still do not have the authority of Bob Orci or JJ Abrams to decide how the next movie gets made.

I have the same rights under the law as Bob Orci, but I do not have the same right to work on Star Trek as Bob Orci does.

As Colonel Quaritch said: “And that too…is a fact.”

70. Jim Nightshade - August 10, 2010

To those of u who are so shallow and judgmental and racist it is embarassing to even read yer posts–are you going to needlessly attack anyone you dont consider attractive?Well lets take it a step further maybe we deserve to treat these inferiors different? Lets mark them and make them all live together away from us–ewww they are not attractive anymore–this from fans supporting rodenberry n treks infinite diversity infinite combinations? What a joke-grow up n think about others in deeper terms than just superficial beauty–every one of us is imperfect, some in more ways than others n those who so uncaringly comment are rude n crude n have deeper problems themselves way worse than just how they judge others–GR was a big man–and in a wheelchair those damned ugly cripples–maybe he didnt deserve to dream of a better brighter future for all of us no matter where we came from or what we looked like—Jennifer Lien was wonderful n beautiful as Kes and still is as a person like all of us–u judgmental shallow people are the ones showing an ugly side-grow up n start caring-

71. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

Spoken like an 18th Century liberal, 69. I did major in political science, so what you say is familiar.

My point was that it is wrong to assert racialist theories given the statement I quoted, and yet this is often not realized.

72. moauvian waoul - August 10, 2010

57 ” I am not afraid of race/ethnicity/breed and the implications of same.”

And just what does race/ethnicity/breed imply?

“Quite the contrary, I relish and delight in them. And yes, I am as proud of my Anglo-Saxon/Norman heritage as any bonafide Yankee can be. You too ought to be proud of your heritage, whatever it be!”

Well clearly you are very proud. But why should they be when you’re obviously superior?

73. moauvian waoul - August 10, 2010

64. “Hooray for our rotting capitalist system and all the prosperity and advances it has brought the world.”

Right on, those savages, every one of them. Where would they be without us? Poor bastards.

Get out much?

74. OMNI - August 10, 2010

Sheeesh!! GET A LIFE!!!

75. moauvian waoul - August 10, 2010

Come on dmduncan, who are you arguing with? Who said anything about wanting to be communist. It’s not a zero sum game is it? Most of the world has neither the US form of Capitalism nor Marxism.

76. moauvian waoul - August 10, 2010

74. And yet here you are

77. Red Dead Ryan - August 10, 2010

Here’s something for the idiots on this thread who insist on making rude, hurtful and predjudiced remarks about Jennifer Lien’s appearance:

The character Jennifer played on “Voyager”, Kes, exemplified Gene Roddenberry’s vision of a tolerant and enlightened human race. Kes was innocent, she saw the best in people, she had litttle predjudice or bias toward/against others and was always kind and courteous towards others. Something we all (myself definitely included) should aspire to.

And finally, this might be the first (and so far only) article devoted to Jennifer Lien. Its a real shame that it has devolved into a mindless exchange of poitical/religious idealogical views and the aforementioned remarks relating to Jennifer Lien’s appearance, instead of her and her character’s place and importance in the Star Trek universe. I hope Jennifer isn’t reading; she’d be horrified and sad. I know I would be.

And that is a shame. A real, big, shame.

78. moauvian waoul - August 10, 2010

Well Ryan I don’t think I’d compare our “mindless exchange of poitical/religious idealogical views” to “the aforementioned remarks relating to Jennifer Lien’s appearance.” Besides I remember reading some of your “views” from time to time. :)

79. Vultan - August 10, 2010


Well put.

80. Red Dead Ryan - August 10, 2010


Neither “topic” had any relevancy to the article.


Thank you!

81. Kevin Rubio - August 10, 2010

You know, I worked with Ms. Lien back in 2000 on Kids WB – MIB. I had been warned by everybody that she was “difficult”. Nothing could have been further from the truth. She was pleasant, engaging and very professional.

82. Lieutenant Non - August 10, 2010

I still would (:p

83. Hat Rick - August 10, 2010

Well, someone mentioned that women of the Caucasian “race” were almost sure to become rather unattractive at age 25, apparently in reference to Ms. Lien. (I consider this an absurd allegation on several levels.) This matter of “race” therefore did pertain to allegations of unattractiveness, since the question of whether there is any such thing as race directly affects the validity of the assertion. From there, “C. S. Lewis” went on to make statements predicated on ethnic differences, and some that referenced racial differences. There was a legitimate discussion of how these differences could be deemed to be compatible with the ideals of both Trek and the cultural and political milieu in which it exists. If incompatible, then *a fortiori* the negative statements implicating Ms. Lien would have tended to have been deemed groundless.

Several others here have already stated that Ms. Lien need not feel anything but pride in herself and her work. See, for example, post 22.

84. Daniel - August 11, 2010

I wish the Kes character had remained. Since her species only lived to be about 9 years old they could have done some good Season 7 episodes dealing with age, mortality, etc.

85. Jim Nightshade - August 11, 2010

Good points about kes`s character-she was great in the role-she showed her characters grace n beauty and quiet peaceful dignity-i really missed her character when she left–i think the writers kinda painted themselves into a corner-her relationship with neelix was kinda vague n confusing n keeping her they woulda had to show her aging n mortality eventually which i agree coulda been interesting with how neelix n janeway n crew woulda dealt with it–she reminded me of a butterfly pretty n knowing she wouldnt last as long but burn brighter-i kinda regret they basicaally replaced with 7 of 9 to try to spice things up a bit–jeri ryan did wonders with her role n 7 of 9 did eventually become a complex more interesting character-when they brought kes back i think they were trying to address some of the shortcomings they had getting rid of her so suddenly n thevaging changing thing but it was not as well written or done as it shoulda been-kes was a unique elf like addition to trek and jennifer lien did a great job with her-thanks for the great character jennifer–

86. Jim Nightshade - August 11, 2010

opps shoulda been and the aging thing not vaging thing oh wellll

87. DJ Neelix - August 11, 2010

@51. Dom – August 10, 2010

The only one that is hateful here is you. Your entire argumentation is filled with anger and you’re really doing the best you can to ridicule me. I guess my “one book” remark was my own equivalent of such thoough and that I do apologise for.

But while I present facts (be them from Wikipedia or not) you keep slander and puke out blatant untruths about Mr Hitchens and Dawkins.

“Historically, destroying respect for revered figures and ridiculing everything for which they have stood has been a classic way of gaining power.”
But isn’t this exactly what you are trying to do?

Allow me to quote your slander:

“Christopher Hitchens talks like a bigot and a Trotskyite.”
“Richard Dawkins, a silly scientist who would be much better sticking to science than using being mean to religious people as a way to get on talk shows.”
“He’s a petty silly scientist”
“an ivory tower academic”
“Goebbels used similar tactics to Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins”
“Take away Dawkins’ or Christopher Hitchens’ hands and you have another Abu Hamza. They’re preachers of hate!”

Most of it was just in one post. No place are you referring to anything specific, it’s just pure slander.

Then we have this one
“…and we all know what great examples of human rights atheist states such as Mao’s China and Stalin’s Soviet Union have been!”

My Sweden is consisted of 80% atheists according to statistics, and the UK is pretty close. Are we communist states you think? Then I suggest you come for a visit, because you’ll find we are pretty far from the above examples.

And no one in this so-called “New Atheism”-movement wants to kill religious beliefs with anything else than words. Religion are strongly connected to lack of education, poverty and illiteracy. The Christian Bush administration and the Islamic al-Queadas Usama bin Laden however, they use bombs and guns to convey their message. Is that something you prefer?

“Well, you’re the one who started spitting hate at religious figures and claiming people who believe in God can’t understand Star Trek! I sincerely respect people’s right to an opinion. You obviously don’t!”

I did no such thing, you’re just being reactionary and unreasoned. I simply asked what you saw in it, which is a different matter.

And for the record, both of my parents as well as my brother are Christians, and I obviously love them anyway although we disagree on these matters. I don’t hate anyone that disagrees with me and although you claim not to either, you’re hateful rantings are clearly evidence of the contrary.
I also think that the Swedish Church is a quite tolerant and benign organisation, and often a force of good. That doesn’t make any of their teachings any more false or true.

‘Fight the belief, not the believers’.

88. Sagart - August 11, 2010

As one who met Mother Teresa, who sat with her and listened to her and has worked with some of those who worked with her and her sisters over the years, it breaks my heart to see her life’s work, her love and self-sacrifice, her dedication and her courage despoiled. My knowledge of her doesn’t come from books but from the experience of people, religious and otherwise who worked with her. Some people may not agree with her understanding of suffering, linking it as she does to the sufferings of Christ and the ultimate joy that is promised to those who carry such crosses in this life but her ‘on the ground’ work cannot be denied. Her own spiritual sufferings and her long periods of self doubt, spiritual confusion and most of all her long struggle with belief in God make her such an inspiring figure; not for her strengths but for her weaknesses and how she worked through these to do what she did.

89. Sagart - August 11, 2010

Sorry for the double post but, by the way, I’m glad to see Jennifer back at the Trek cons. I saw her a couple of years ago and, well, she didn’t seem very well. It seems she is by nature very quiet but I’m happy to see her on stage . Hopefully, it was a good experience for her. Keep well Jennifer!

90. P Technobabble - August 11, 2010

I believe Gene Roddenberry’s issues with God and religion were based upon a dissatisfaction with what he felt these things were producing in society. And he pointed to the many “inconsistencies” he felt existed in the conventional religiosity he was brought up in. Many people have felt this way. I think this attitude often leads to a rejection of any sort of religious belief, or belief in some kind of Higher Power — what we refer to as atheism. Atheism proposes there is no scientific evidence of God, or a Creator, yet atheism, as a point of view, has no real scientific evidence to prove its position either. It is a point of view which can only rely on what we currently may know.
The real fact is that we do not know, whether we are believers or non-believers. We are not even in a position to know, since our own thinking and understanding is not all-knowing.
Science is an invention of Man. The tools we use to do science are man-made, based upon human understanding at a particular moment in time. As we understand more, the tools become more sophisticated. Such sophistication leads to more understanding, but it also leads to more questions. Therefore, the superior attitude of science is flawed because it does not answer every possible question. If science really had all the answers, there would be no questions!
So, here we all are, believing in something, believing in something else, believing in nothing, and yet none of it has produced “ultimate knowledge.” The Universe, and our own existence, is a mystery. And we continue to explore how everything came into existence, but we can never really answer “Why?” Surely, it would be much simpler for nothing to exist, yet here we are in all our complexity.
I believe, in the face of this, our relationship with each other should be based on the fact that we are of one species, and, essentially, all the same. Our value in independence, isolation and separateness are the root of what keeps us apart. An acceptance of unity is what makes compassion possible, and then all conflict would disappear. This is truly not the same as Socialism or Communism, but rather a Transcendental point of view. All of this is IMO, of course…
Sorry, I didn’t mean to go off…

91. Mark Lynch - August 11, 2010

Didn’t I read somewhere that Star Trek fans were a more tolerant breed? Wow, not these days it would seem.

I would imagine if Jennifer Lien read the number of just plain rude and nasty posts here about her appearance, she would never bother attending a convention again. Then you idiots who bang on about her weight and looks will have to find someone else to latch onto to be hateful about.

People age differently, hell I have changed markedly in the last ten years. Wish I hadn’t, but there you go.

Actors and actresses have to go to ridiculous lengths to stay in shape, because of the attitude of the film and television industry. Not fair but it is a fact of life. My understanding is that Jennifer Lien no longer makes her living as an actress, so she can actually eat like a normal person. So what if she is a bit larger? Inside it is still the same person. Anyway it is not like she has become morbidly obese or anything. Get some perspective for Christs sake.

Are you so insecure about yourselves that you have this irresistible urge to make such spiteful comments? How would you feel if someone made these same statements to you or a loved one?

Think twice, speak once. An invaluable piece of advice sometimes.


92. Sebastian - August 11, 2010


Well said, Mark.

I’m a bit surprised with all of the anger I’ve read here about religion vs atheism (this is an old argument… put it to bed, folks), and the incredibly rude and hateful things I’ve read here regarding an actress (and mother) who has done the “unforgivable” and allowed herself to look like a normal person (whenever you see most current celebrities in real life, it’s usually a bit of a shock how truly thin they appear sometimes; the camera adds volume so many stay ‘hyper-thin’ to compensate) And I’ve noticed that Shatner doesn’t get anywhere near this level of reaction about his appearance when he does a convention or new project.
As a Star Trek fan, I’m frankly embarrassed by this mean-spirited and misogynistic reaction simply because of how Ms. Lien looks. So much for IDIC….

I sincerely hope she doesn’t read this particular thread, because not only would she never grace another convention, but her opinion of her ‘fans’ may be ruined for good.

93. Dab - August 11, 2010

This discussion, overall, is the saddest thing I have ever read on this site. Most of you should be embarrassed, and the rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves (with the odd exception of course).

94. midnight oil - August 11, 2010

Maybe there should be a rule that those who feel compelled to comment on one’s personal appearances should be required to post a picture of themselves.

At least it levels the playing field.

95. AC - August 11, 2010

Hey butt-wipes…. Was your MOM (you know, the person who’s basement you live in?) as hot when she had been taking care of you for 14 years as when you were born? Prolly not. Face it, she gave up acting and became a MOTHER. I would say that is a good change and now that she does not have to starve herself and is taking care of another human she can look however the hell she wants. Besides, she is still like HALF the size of some of you lard-@$$ fanboys. :P

96. Hat Rick - August 11, 2010

I *am* alarmed that there are so many people who seem to judge on the basis of appearance, until I realize that prevailing culture, and in entertainment, especially, emphasizes appearance to the nth degree. This is a Star Trek board, catering to those who are in the mood for entertainment. For good or for ill, to some extent, judging someone by their appearance is in the nature of entertainment. Casting directors exist because of this fact. Thus, there is a reason, albeit sometimes a very sad one, for this kind of behavior, and it is because of the power of much of popular culture that we have come to this.

Outside of entertainment, people also judge by first impressions, which — as I think many will agree — are important in their own way. Think about your last job interview, for example, or your last date. Everyone wants to make a good first impression. Good impressions rest in part on mere appearance.

But the things that matter — the things that persist, that most affect other people, and that speak the most about our uniqueness, our spirit, and our humanity, are *not* affected by how “imperfect” we look as judged by societal standards of beauty. I think that most thoughtful people know this. It is usually not thoughtful people who intentionally post hurtful remarks.

There is a spillover effect from the entertainment mindset that makes itself felt here. It is often acceptable to make comments about how a character appears, because entertainment and art do put some stock in that. But it goes beyond the pale when one makes potentially hurtful remarks about how someone who is real, and not a character, looks, without due regard to their feelings. Characters do not have real feelings. Real people do.

Freedom of speech encompasses many things, but it does not justify deliberately hurtful remarks based on personal appearance, racial generalization, or other intrinsically dubious and invidious bases of judgment. It is my belief that the fact that some have made these remarks reflects much more on their own personal deficiencies than anything else.

I hope that if anything good comes from this thread, it will be that Jennifer Lien finds that her real friends are and always have been just as supportive as we expect of the cast, crew, and the vast majority of fans of Star Trek.

97. Garret Wangs Beautiful Hair - August 11, 2010

I had to do a doudle take too but the fact that this thread has descended into a “discussion” about Jennifer Liens weight makes me sick!

Star Trek fans are supposed to be enlightened folk… a lot of these comments really do make one think otherwise.

98. Miv - August 11, 2010

It’s funny when fans get disappointed because actors age and begin to look like normal people. She loves her life and kudos that she does, but we will sorely miss her absolutely amazing acting (Warlord, please!).

She always seemed quiet, and honestly I’d rather see her as a normal happy woman in her middle ages than a Lindsay Lohan aftermath case.

99. John from Cincinnati - August 11, 2010

Of course, Gene Roddenberry’s brilliant genius vision of a secular future with no money and people working for the betterment of themselves and society goes against every Republican/Capitalist ideal and philosophy.

I love you Gene Roddenberry!

100. Hat Rick - August 11, 2010

99, the older I get, the less I am enamored of the capitalist system we seem to worship to an increasing degree.

Capitalism has its place. It is a wonderful, almost magical system for creating things. But it has no heart. It has hands to make things, and a brain to rationalize things, and a cold, calculating face to keep track of money. But it has no heart. It is frigid.

As a very amateur historian, I look with contempt at the actions of robber barons right here in America, who in their quest for money cause so much grief to people they did not deign to know. There was material progress, yes, but at what cost?

In the eyes of any compassionate, loving God, the dollars that these robber barons claimed was not worth even a single tear in the humblest of any of us. And I think that near the end of their lives, even these barons knew this and tried to make up for their acts through establishments of foundations for the public good.

Sometimes I listen to these right-wingers and ask myself what they would say on the day of judgment that they seem to believe in, to a God that they believe knows all the acts of selfishness and hatred for others that their words and deeds have promoted. In their heart of hearts, if they had any, I believe that they know that they would be wordless in their own defense. And they would depend on grace — and the merciful intercessions of those they merrily stepped on, on the way to Mammon.

101. Lore - August 11, 2010

#97 Just because you like Sy Fy or Trek doesn’t give one “enlightened” status, as you can see by this thread.

102. Lore - August 11, 2010

#100 When our thoughts and motivations are judged we will all be “wordless in our defense”. Some people are given the opportunity, and others are born into prosperity. Given similar circumstances most of us would act the same way. As Khan said (paraphrase) “technology has advanced, but man has changed so little”.

103. Losira - August 11, 2010

I was saddened and disappointed in all I have read. As a christian and as a human being. 1st we are all God’s children and equal in his eyes. Like it or not. World views are not Godks views. I take comfort in knowing that. Also I loved Jennifer Lien. In voyager. She was inocent yes. But she had an appriciation of all. She was smart and caring.She was atrue explorer of oo space and all she encountered. Not judgemental or uppidy. I also felt her exit. Should have been a bit more dignified. However I would. Have prefirred she stayed 7 seasons. There could have a potential of interesting exchanges. Between Kes and 7 of 9. Lost opportunity for good. Scripts. They both. Were learning and exploring. .however Jennifer the best to you always. And just consider and diss miss what mey happen to read here. God never makes junk.

104. Hat Rick - August 11, 2010

102, you and I agree that man has changed little. But I do believe that if there is anything that we can do now to lend weight to our defense, we have an obligation to do so now. Wordless we may or may not be ultimately before an almighty Creator, if such Creator exists, but there is no harm in assuring that there would be truth in what we say, or what others say on our behalf, if a defense we are accorded. There will be no defense attorney who could possibly lie on anyone’s behalf on any day of judgment. The truth will out.

105. Losira - August 11, 2010

#100 you are preaching to the choi amen! And Jennifer you just keep going the way you are. You are happy with your life and that’s more then I can about a lot of others. No one can steal your Joy or your soul!

106. Stephen whelan - August 11, 2010

Some of the posts on here are down right horrible. Poor Jen I hope to god she isnt reading this. She still looks amazing. It’s sad that some people are so shallow and rude. As for her shyness have you ever seen interviews with the likes of Robert deniro and gene Hackman, two of the greatest actors ever, they are incredibly shy people. Some people on here make me sick. Jen If you do read this know many and most of us love you and thank you for giving us a wonderful character in kes.

107. John from Cincinnati - August 11, 2010


You are 100% correct about the modern day Robber Barons my friend. They take advantage of the weak to line their silver coffers. Most people want to work and be useful, but are taken advantage of by those that make 316 times their salary. The ratio of CEO pay to the average worker in 1964 was 26 to 1 and today it is 316 to1. That is the Republican definition of progress.

108. falcon - August 11, 2010

Wow, I truly am ashamed for humanity, after reading the bile and venom on this page. This really should be taken over to Daily Kos or Huffington Post or NewsBusters.

To those who talk about “capitalism” – let’s get one thing straight, what we have is not “capitalism,” it’s the free market system. “Capitalism” was a word someone coined because they didn’t like it – hence the emphasis on “capital,” or money. For the same reason, the term “socialist” was coined by someone who didn’t like the idea of being told they had to support the whole.

And to those who seem to delight in commenting on someone’s looks, as another poster said, let’s see your picture. I’m 50 years old, and up until recently I’ve let myself go. But I’ve lost 25 pounds, I’m in much better shape than most 50-year-olds, and I have no right to comment on someone else’s looks or condition.

109. John from Cincinnati - August 11, 2010

free market / capitalism. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.

Symantics does not absolve Republicans from their evil deeds.

Freedom = the right to make as much money as there is money in the world. That is freedom my friends, that is freedom. (Tear in my eye)

110. Hat Rick - August 11, 2010

Not really, 108. “Capitalism” is a legitimate word used by social scientists. “Socialism” is a legitimate word used by those who are proud of their socialistic system.

I fear for this country when people like certain unnamed talk show hosts desseminate invective that lead others to conclude that certain words themselves are pejoratives when they never were intended to be. I fear for this country because there are so many who are misled by them.

“Capitalism”: See, e.g.,

This country is a capitalist country. Even business schools say so. See, e.g.,

“Free market system” is just another (and longer) euphemism for capitalism. If you doubt it, ask yourself just what the market settles accounts with, if not capital? “Capital” is just another word for money. Literally.

Capitalism, if unchecked, can be quite bad, and the most powerful people who make money of capital will do everything they can to prevent you from seeing that. Likewise, socialism, if unchecked, can be quite bad as well.

Only extremists on either side will claim that only their side can be right. Interestingly, in this country, money confers not only the means of getting things, but it also confers the means of getting others to do what you want. Normally, enlightened self-interest is what should guide a country such as ours. However, with money, enlightenment goes out the window, and people are given what they abjectly desire, rather than what is good for them, in the guise of what they need — REGARDLESS of actual enlightened self-interest.

I wish people would turn off Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. I wish people would stop getting their news from MTV or the Huffington Post. I wish people would listen to their conscience, instead.

111. Doubting Thomas - August 11, 2010

Thanks for the Trek Lien!

On another note, since this conversation seems to be going back and forth between a few topics, is there really any religion that does not spread some form of hate? No, I am not Aethiest as I am not qualified to say if there is a God(s) or not since I am not aware of ever meeting one.

112. Lore - August 11, 2010

#111 Stop doubting and believe.

113. Me - August 11, 2010

I’ve been a Star Trek fan for over 30 years. I’ve enjoyed all of the movies, and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen every episode of each series, except for TAS. I’ve never been a costume-wearer and I can’t recite the name of every episode like some of those who seem to be totally engrossed in Star Trek. I understand there are folks like that and while I don’t get it, I’ve never been ashamed to be in the company of other Star Trek fans until today.

Jennifer is a beautiful and talented actor. She may not look like she did 15 years ago, but I doubt many of you do, either. You know what she looks like to me? A mom. That makes her sexier to me than she ever was as Kes.

She seems to be happy and comfortable with her life. I applaud her for that and for being there for her children. I’m sure doing 12-16 hour days on TV or movie sets wouldn’t allow her to do that.

114. John from Cincinnati - August 11, 2010

“What do you invest in?” – Offenhouse (TNG ‘The Neutral Zone’)
“We invest in ourselves” – Picard (TNG ‘The Neutral Zone’)

“The challenge, Mr. Offenhouse, is to improve enrich yourself.” – Picard

115. Red Dead Ryan - August 11, 2010

Doesn’t anybody remember what the article is supposed to be about?
It isn’t about someone’s appearance, it isn’t about religion, its not about politics and it isn’t supposed to be about capitalism versus socialism. But, yet, here we are. Sad. As I said earlier, this thread should have been about Jennifer Lien’s contribution to Trek. This is the first ever article devoted to her and her character of Kes, but you wouldn’t know it by reading the comments. And even a lot of comments that do involve the actress are about how she “let herself go” or how she isn’t hot anymore.

It might be a long time (if ever) that we hear from Jennifer Lien again.

116. Doubting Thomas & Appearance Chritic. - August 11, 2010

Oh and since we are talking about looks, Kim looks better with short hair, Naomi looks like like a pseudo-dominatrix, Tuvok lost the buttons on his shirt, did Neelix need stairs to get up on his chair? and is that chicken neck I see on the good doctor? Lien actually looks more like herself without make up and hairdo in one of the other pictures, just a little more chunkier. They all pretty much look like normal people out of TV character.

117. John from Cincinnati - August 11, 2010

If you were at the convention, you would’ve seen and heard, Lien didn’t say hardly a word. So not hearing from her would be the status quo.

As far as her appearance, like it or not, Star Trek is a product of Hollywood and Hollywood is looks-oriented. So people commenting on here about how ‘bad’ people are for pointing out Lien’s change in appearance are in denial. I highly doubt the producers would’ve hired Lien to portray Kess if she looked back then like she does today. Not making a judgment call, just a fact.

118. Doubting Thomas & Appearance Critic. - August 11, 2010

Can’t I be in the middle? Neither believing nor doubting?

119. Hat Rick - August 11, 2010

Since it has been mentioned, Ms. Lien is making a very wise choice investing in college education. I have some knowledge about the matter and I would say that she is doing herself a favor by taking courses to futher her education.

I think it is part of the shallowness of show biz that people think that once you are associated with it, you can’t do anything else. That, my friends, is bunk. Although it may be detrimental to the ego, Hollywood is not the be-all and end-all of existence. Even the screen superstar, Heddy Lamarr, has been posthumously recognized for her genius in other fields — pertaining to national defense research and development, of all things!

I’ve been around the block a few times. I suspect that Ms. Lien has some great things ahead of her. My respect for her and for Voyager has increased the more I have read about her life and her talents.

120. - August 11, 2010

@Red Dead Ryan: I agree! She was and possibly is a very well actress, she was an interesting character in Voyager, but people d think in stereotypes. Where is the heart of all the trekker´ ??? Above – not with Star Trek, not with the people we admired so much and who brought Trek to Life!

(sorry, my english is not that great, i am a native german)

121. Vultan - August 11, 2010


Picard’s statement makes for interesting sci-fi, but that kind of high-minded philosophy doesn’t put food on the table at the end of the day, now does it?

122. Vultan - August 11, 2010

Anyway, back to Jennifer Lien. I saw the episode “Tuvix” on Spike TV last night. She does a great job in that one… as usual.

123. Michael Hall - August 11, 2010

“Star Trek was the creation of many people. Christianity wasn’t portrayed as an evil in Star Trek. It was clear in dialogue that Kirk and possibly Uhura were Christians. Kirk means Church. Gene Roddenberry’s views had changed by the late-1980s. That doesn’t mean his views before were wrong. Then again, Star Trek was about open-mindedness and learning while TNG was about telling people what to do! Interesting that you’re trying to keep people who don’t share your opinion away from Star Trek! “

Five incorrect statements in eight sentences. Pretty good ratio, assuming that’s what you were going for. :-)

(For example, while TOS was the product of many creative individuals, only one person created Star Trek, and his name was Gene Roddenberry.)

124. moauvian waoul - August 11, 2010

Hat Rick/ John from Cincinnati
Well said; both of you. All of it.

125. Kim Cardassian - August 11, 2010

What on earth is going on here?

126. Harry Ballz - August 11, 2010

Anthony, you might want to wipe this thread clean and shut it down while there is still a shred of dignity.

127. Lore - August 11, 2010

#118 You need to be either hot or cold. Meaning either believing or not believing. Jesus states in the Gospels that he did not come to unite mankind, but to be a sword (figuratively speaking) to divide. You must chose.

128. dmduncan - August 11, 2010

75: “Come on dmduncan, who are you arguing with? Who said anything about wanting to be communist. It’s not a zero sum game is it? Most of the world has neither the US form of Capitalism nor Marxism.”

1. “Arguing” is not the word I would have used. Not that I am opposed to arguing. I like it just fine. But that’s not what I was doing.

2. My post at 69 begins with a quote from 65, to whom 69 was addressed.

That should answer your question about who mentioned communism.

129. dmduncan - August 11, 2010

125: “What on earth is going on here?”

It seems like our little version of “FESTIVAL!” (“Return of the Archons,” TOS season 1, episode 21).

130. DavidJ - August 11, 2010

I remember seeing her at a convention during the run of the show, and she was really strange and anti-social her entire time on stage. Most of us there couldn’t tell if she was on drugs or just incredibly shy.

That said, I did really like her character. She was really intriguing in the pilot and had a lot of potential, but unfortunately the writers had no clue what to do with her.

131. Losira - August 11, 2010

#126. I most certainly agree. I was shocked and saddened by this thread. The poison thrown about. The putdown of a fine actress and good person. Sure have freedom of speech. But with any freedom. Comes responsibility. And all actions have consequences. I believe we need to take a hard look in the mirror at ourselvies. And then rediscover. What Star Trek is all about. From what I have been reading, its been lost and forgotton. Or possibly. Non-trek people are in the thread stirring up dissention and making trouble. I’m not sure. However in trekdom there is no room for hate,greed,intolerance,selfishness, or the like. There is room for personal growth and self improvement,careing for others,compassion,love and just plain trying to do what’s right. A clear conscience feels good and a lot easier to carry around. So let’s clean up our act before Terra firma looses our federation membership ok? God bless everyone

132. lieutenant_non - August 11, 2010

Somebody please listen to HARRY BALLZ cry for dignity! You would all look and feel different if you had sex with Neelix for a few years! IT CHANGES YOU. Let it go!


133. moauvian waoul - August 11, 2010

128 129. Dmduncan. That is true, on both counts. It must be the red hour. As for my question, well Hat Rick used the term in a different context. He wasn’t espousing a theory supporting it, merely posing a scarcastic question. Anyway I’m trying to remain vague since this thread has gotten to hot to handle, and I may have already contributed to that. I trust we’re talking about the same thing.
(You once asked me how I drew a conclusion about your politics. This is how.) :)

134. OLLEY OLLEY OLLEY - August 11, 2010

Trekmovie should feel ashamed at allowing so many BASTARDS post so much poison about a sweet girl.

135. dmduncan - August 11, 2010

@133: His comment may have been sarcastic. Or not.

I do know that some look for justification for socialist policies from the Founders where there is none. They were opposed to “redistributing” wealth for excellent reasons which they clearly expressed. They experienced firsthand the forced redistribution of their wealth by the King of England; it was one of their grievances in the Declaration of Independence.

As for me: I’m much like an 18th century American Liberal, or a 21st century Libertarian. Take your pick. All I ask is not to be misplaced; I don’t fit the nonsense categories of “left WING/right WING” in the parliamentary/French Revolutionary sense in which those terms are routinely and simplistically misapplied through epidemic proportions of national ignorance.

As for capitalism — it reflects our character. That’s all it does and ever will do. If we are greedy and selfish, then our capitalism will be greedy and selfish. It is a mirror of who we are. And if we change, then it will too.

Unlike socialism, the flaw in capitalism isn’t in the system. It’s entirely and exclusively in us. You and me. And as we evolve, it will too. Socialism operates with a Hobbesian view of human nature which is demonstrably false, and which will not serve our future well.

I think Amory Lovins has seen the future, and it is here:

136. weyoun_9 - August 11, 2010

While I actually hope people have stopped reading this thread…may I just say that I feel somewhat responsible for some of this. Apparently my comment (21) that was really only meant to disparage a prior comment and revolting chauvinistic attack on Ms. Lien somehow descended into a deep, long winded and largely unneccesary debate about race, religion and politics. Rather than explain my position in that arena, let me just apologize to the readers here and AGAIN to Jennifer Lien for the mess that this whole thread became.

If people are still reading this, I’d love to try and turn it BACK to Kes and the topic at hand remembering some of my favorite Kes episodes, including “Cold Fire” and “Before and After.” It was a shame they weren’t willing/able to explore her Ocompan abilities and keep her around. I DO love 7of 9, but it’s a shame we lost Kes at the same time.

137. CmdrR - August 11, 2010

119 – That’s Hedley!

138. moauvian waoul - August 11, 2010

Hm, I’ll just say this and then leave it alone, since it is clear that even us politicos feel this discussion has left the field of play. The term socialism is so vague it’s useless. Are we talking about Democrats or Liberals like the term is used in our country today? (like you yourself mentioned). Are we talking FDR’s policies, or healthcare, or the social programs of say Canada, or the economies of Western Europe? Or are we referring to Stalin, the USSR, or Cuba or North Korea? And I would say that both right and left have misused the word for their own reasons. Is the word synonymous with Communism? That was my impression of your comments. Perhaps I misunderstood. But I don’t hear to many people arguing for communism, no matter how left their poltics might be. And by that I mean no one. At least we’re not bashing someone based on her looks but I know we’re off base.

139. dmduncan - August 11, 2010

@137: I think that any time people have a discussion about contentious issues without descending into name calling, it’s a good thing.

It may be off topic, but I don’t see how anybody could confuse what we are discussing with the silliness of putting down Jennifer’s appearance.

Jennifer had the sense to pull out of the entertainment business to live the kind of life she felt more comfortable with and wanted.

I like Jennifer Lien just as she is far more than that pretty, self absorbed, mirror gazing Kardashian girl whose first name I can’t remember.

140. moauvian waoul - August 11, 2010

Well said.

141. Chuck - August 12, 2010

Ok, I just skimmed down this line of comments and saw a relevant discussion devolve into absurd arguments that have nothing to to with the original discussion (at one point I even saw long diatribes involving topics such as God, atheism, FDR’s economic policies, etc.). I’d like to jump back the the real issue:

The last time we saw Jennifer Lien on TV was in the episode “Fury” that aired in the year 2000 – about 10 years ago. If you go back and see what Lien looks like in that episode, and you compare it to what she looked like at the Vegas con. she looks like a completely different person. Sure, many of the other actors like Shatner haven’t taken good care of themselves, but I am still able to recognize them by sight. Jennifer Lein – I hate to say this – looks like she has aged twice as fast. Sure, the years add on some pounds, but she went from a slender and fit person to somebody who looks like she’s almost 50 years old, and it is a pretty radical change for only ten years. I’m not trying to pass any judgement on her. I’m just stating my immediate reaction after seeing her current appearance.

There is a rumor that Jennifer got involved with drugs, but I haven’t seen any evidence of this other then anonymous statements on random message boards, so I tend to believe this may not be true. Therefore, it is possible that she has a physical condition. She either has some internal problem, or has simply been eating more and exercising less. It could also be a few other factors that I haven’t considered. In short, I think it is a fair question to wonder what has caused Jennifer Lein’s appearance to change so drastically.

142. P Technobabble - August 12, 2010

Sorry, Chuck, I don’t really think it’s any of our business…

143. mars396 - August 12, 2010

I remember this discussion the last time Ms Lien appeared at a convention; 2004 I believe ? So, I wasn’t “shocked” like you callous fans seem to be: when she was on Voyager, she looked like a little girl; now she looks like a woman. I prefer women to little girls, but apparently, most of you do not. To each his own. I specifically like the one comment who said being a loving, caring mother taking care of children is much more attractive than being a young Hollywood sexpot. I agree wholeheartedly. Ms Lien should be applauded for choosing to raise children over pursuing a shallow and superficial Hollywood career. BRAVO !

And far as why she is who she is, Jennifer Lien has always been shy, that is her personality. If she suffers from anxiety disorder or not, or if she takes prescription medication for it, is none of our business. She is who she is.

If this is how she is treated by the so-called “fans”, then its no wonder that her appearances at conventions are so few and far between. You are all jerks who give Star Trek fandom a bad reputation.

She was supposed to appear at the convention this weekend here in New Jersey, and now she is no longer on the schedule. I contacted Creation, who informed me that she will be signing autographs and posing for Photo Ops, but not going on stage to talk and have a Q&A. I have no idea if what idiots like you are posting here and on other sites has caused this. Thanks for ruining a big part of the only Star Trek convention this year on this coast.

144. CmdrR - August 12, 2010

139 – ?? It was a Blazing Saddles reference. Jeez, you really should catch up on the classics.


145. CHEEZYSPAM - August 12, 2010

appearances or not I would make sweet, sweet love to her voice all night long. It’s like creamy smooth velvet.

Kes was my favorite character on the entire show. I though in terms of acting she was top tier along with Tim Russ.

Her best episode IMHO was “WARLORD” just because you got to see her really out of character. You could see it in her eyes the changes of personality. She was a feisty little pixie in that one! :-D

146. Anthony Thompson - August 12, 2010


No one argues for Communism? There are people in every part of this world arguing for it! They see that capitalism has failed and are looking for alternative economic and social models.

147. moauvian waoul - August 12, 2010

I agree with your second point.

148. Chuck - August 12, 2010

#142 – That may be your opinion, but if she didn’t want people talking about this issue, she shouldn’t have appeared in a big public event. I agree that some fans are being overly judgmental, but I think its unrealistic to expect people not to say anything about such a huge change in appearance. Lien also seemed very reserved and didn’t look like she was enjoying herself at the convention. After distancing herself from the fan community for a good amount of time, why is she appearing at conventions? It’s probable she appeared for money, not for love of the fans… I’m not sure… Do I respect Lien for moving on with her life and starting a family after Voyager? Absolutely! I’m just wondering what happened over the years that caused her appearance to radically change. I am not accusing her of being a bad person, not am I saying anything overtly negative about her. Frankly, I’m a bit surprised about how overly sensitive some of the fans are. In short, if you voluntarily appear at a huge public event after being out of the spotlight for years, and looking MUCH different from how the fans remember you, people are going to say something – it’s simple human nature!

149. TMMW (formerly TrekMadeMeWonder) - August 12, 2010

What’s up with these pics?

She has changed a bit, and I am not saying for the worse.

150. Phil - August 12, 2010

The last few posts are just….amazing. Really. “I’m not being judgemental, but….”, “I heard rumors about (Insert name of your favorite medical disorder here)”, “she chose to distance herself from the fan community”….so this means she owes everyone an explaination??? Well, you all need to consider why she made that choice…here’s a thought…an actress creates a body of work, makes a life decision to start a family, and when she makes a public appearance, 95% of the comments posted are asking why she’s not a size 2 anymore. Pathetic. I’ve lost hair on top, and have grown some in places I dont need it, and have put on a few pounds. A firm beliver in doing as I would be done by…Jennifer, thank you for your body of work, and for your contribution to the legacy of Trek, and I wish you happiness, peace, and success in your future endeavours, regardless of where they take you. I want no less for you then I’d want for my own family, a long life, and the love of those closest to you.

151. Chuck - August 12, 2010

#150 – I never said she needed to personally give any explanation. I didn’t realize that we are not allowed to carry out ANY discussion regarding the physical appearance of a Trek cast member. If Robert Picardo showed up 100 lbs. heavier, I’d be asking the same questions. Suppose Nimoy showed up to a convention with no nose. Would we be prohibited from discussing that as well? To call people pathetic for discussing this subject is extremely condescending. This is the internet – people are always going to say crazy stuff, and if you think whining about people’s lack of decorum wil change that, you are kidding yourself. It’s a bit amusing that you criticize others for judging Lien, and then proceed to judge them in an equally unfair manner. Furthermore, what choice did Lien make? Wasn’t she fired? Are you saying she chose to be fired?!

152. Losira - August 12, 2010

God Bless you Jennifer don’t stay away from Cons because of the low-lives you may have encountered in reading this thread. I keep hoping you won’t read it. There are a lot of fans who love you and want to see you. Just the way you are. You have a happy fufiling life. It can’t be taken from you, by words of loosers remeber that. Again I loved your contribution to trek was marvelous. May God bless your wonderful family and all your future endeavers

153. TMMW (formerly TrekMadeMeWonder) - August 12, 2010


I think you are ignoring some aspects of what some are saying.

Jen has changed quite a bit in the past ten years. What makes me wonder is – What happened to her inner spark that seemed so on the surface? Jen seems s-o-o-o vivacious and now she seems a bit empty.

I hope you look at the link I provided above and compare just her expressions. It’s obvious (to me) that something has affected her. And I do think it is appropriate to comment on it here. AND, If I may be a bit bolder, I also think it’s more than likely some kind of psych medication. I’ve seen those meds tear down so many good people – BUT HOPEFULLY NOT OUR JEN!

Just an observation, not a judgement.

154. Losira - August 12, 2010

One thing no body thought of, if she is on psch meds. A side effect is rapid weight gain. Evan with exercise and diet. Its nearly impossible to keep it off. I’ve got friends on similar meds so I ask your sanity or your waistline? Let’s face it hollywood is not for the faint-heated. A lot of premature deaths came to those that were unable to handle their fickleness. ODs,suicides,heart attacks etc. I would say she made a good choice in leaving while still ahead. Now she’s living her dream,and where God wants her.

155. Phil - August 12, 2010

@151 – What are you defending here? Speculation about eating disorders, drug use, mental issues? Suggestions on how to regain that girlish look, so who she is now better fits into the fanboys image of what she SHOULD look like? Because her character was very girlish, some of the sexual innuendo posted borders on perversion. I’ve looked over the panels where the men were speaking, and the comments about physical appearance are a tiny fraction of what they were here…can you say double standard, my friend?

If pointing out that the reasons behind her appearance “IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS” is condescending, then it’s condescending. Okay, you have made your arguement for rude and boorish behaviour. If its wrong to treat someone rude or disrespectully in person, then it’s wrong to do it on the internet. Jennifer has done nothing to deserve this judgement you are defending, which is why I’m critical of it.

I have not commented on her departure from the show and really don’t know how that ties into how everyone has been piling on about her appearance. Her departure and Jeri Ryan’s addition to the cast is well documented. Producers make changes to programs, life goes on. Not really sure what rabbit trail you are heading down here…

It’s a free country, you are free to defend bad behavior if you wish. Just like I’m free to point out it’s rude, childish, immature, and uncalled for…

156. moauvian waoul - August 12, 2010

Chuck. And you thought the conversation here was absurd before you posted. You’re debating a woman who thinks she not only knows Ms. Lien personally, but also what ails her, and what God wants of her. Good luck with that. Remember: stay on topic my brother. He he he. :)

157. Losira - August 12, 2010

#155 well said!

158. dmduncan - August 12, 2010

146: “No one argues for Communism? There are people in every part of this world arguing for it! They see that capitalism has failed and are looking for alternative economic and social models.”

(Sorry, was going to let this drop, but I then felt like a coward for that decision, so I changed my mind.)

Yeah, insane people are arguing for it. “Insane” according to Einstein’s definition: “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

What exactly ARE the pro communist arguments? Well, if you are a heartless psychopath I suppose you’d think state sponsored mass murder was a good idea:

Capitalism has failed? In comparison to the raging success that WAS the Soviet Union? In comparison to the raging success that WAS Maoist China?

Capitalism can change with us. Communism can’t. It’s a rotten idea from surface to core, that appeals to angry people with an entitlement complex and a hideous desire to force conformity on everyone. Why? Because having the freedom to choose, too many people will NOT choose the bad ideas of communism, threatening its existence; thus, the only way to keep communism alive is by a shock and awe campaign against free thought, free choice, free association, free trade.

The only thing that sometimes gives me doubt about the future of humanity is when people cannot be bothered to learn even recent history, and who through such ignorance would willingly stand on the precipice of repeating the most terrible mistakes of the past.

When people are so immersed in useless entertainment that they don’t have the extrapolative power to play a game of Tic Tac Toe to a draw, I worry.

159. Phil - August 12, 2010

Let it go, man, let it go….

160. Phil - August 12, 2010

@158 – hey, who needs to learn from history where there are overweight actresses to hurl insults at…

Sadly, I fear our priorites are a bit off…

161. Red Dead Ryan - August 12, 2010

We need Harry Ballz to lighten things up around here…

162. skyjedi - August 12, 2010

Some may age gracefully. Not all do. Does Kirstie alley look as good now as she did in star trek II, or how about Carrie Fisher now versus when she was in return of the jedi.

163. Harry Ballz - August 12, 2010


You called?

A piece of bacon and an egg walk into a saloon. The bartender fixes his gaze on them and declares, “we don’t serve breakfast here!”

164. Eric Wilson - August 12, 2010

I’ve been a fan of Jennifer’s for a long time-ever since Season Two of Voyager. Until then, i’d never had a favorite female character in ST-but, once I saw her playing Kes on screen, it wasn’t long before I did…with the remarkable Kate Mulgrew coming in as my Second, who, like Jen, WAS their character. I met her the first time at a small con not far from where I live here in the South. In person, she was attentive, and most complimentary of the sketch I had done of her as Kes, which she signed. We had a nice interaction, and it remains a cherished memory for me…as does sitting down, among a group of other Voyager fans, at the Vegas con Voyager breakfast. It was worth every dime I paid for it. Why? Because I got to do something many fans don’t-a chance to sit, and chat with someone I have greatly admired for years. All I will comment on re her appearance is this: I saw, up close and personal, those beautiful, deep-blue eyes I had seen so many times on screen..and heard that unique, feathery-soft voice, so familiar to me,all a mere few feet from me at the table, as she chatted with us. THERE was Our Jen. I will ever be grateful for the chance to talk at some length to her, and able to impart things to her, which she was very grateful to receive, including the fact she has fans out there…. That was worth every dime I spent for the time. I do know, have known, that Jen is a very shy person, as Kate Mulgrew has said in response to fans’ wondering before. My feeling, is that, though she technically knew she was going to a very big convention,she may not have been quite prepared for it., and it’s been two years since her last one, then, if I recall correctly, four between that, and the last before it. She isn’t used to the limelight as before, but, to be fair to even maybe some Kesfans, I think that still in personal experience one might still be a bit jarred by her reticence. But, as said, one-on-one, as she was with me over a decade ago at a small Southern con, she was very attentive, and thankful. I also felt it very important, in part, to let her know how many of us out there there are, who are her fans. It’s a shame she isn’t acting any longer, but I respect her choices, and know she’s a fine mother, and wife.I do hope she becomes a nurse. How apropos would that be!? Like Kes, she , too, continues to grow, and learn. If ever you see this, Jen, THANK YOU for your work, particularly your wonderful job as Kes…and coming back to the convention circuit. You are and will continue to be beloved by many.

165. Harry Ballz - August 12, 2010

Eric, I think your heartfelt story should maybe encourage others here to post any positive personal encounters they’ve had with actors from Trek.

166. Phil - August 12, 2010

@ 163….can I borrow that!! Funny!!

167. Phil - August 12, 2010

Eric, I don’t attend cons, but you summed it up well. There is a person on the stage (or screen), who has their strengths and shortcomings, and is greater then the images of the characters they potray. Thanks for sharing your experience. My wife is a nurse, and she has a substantial collection of thank you letters from the kids she has treated. Priceless.

168. Harry Ballz - August 12, 2010

@166 Be my guest! Thanks, Phil!

169. Eric Wilson - August 13, 2010

Thanks, guys. I used to be pretty reticent about even mentioning Jen, or Kes, on fan sites, due to fear of-and it HAS happened in the past-‘negative’ comments re both. I can promise you all that, no matter what character, or show, or actor you prefer, you will ever have my utmost respect for your choices…but being a Kesfan gives ya Galaxy-class loads of street creds IMO!! LOL. I have loved seeing so many here post positive and supportive things about Jen, and Kes. It’s so nice to feel for a change at ease amongst folks who either are major fans, or found Jennifer’s work on Voyager something worthy of praise-it only strengthens a K/J fans’ standing. That said, I do think that sometimes when encountering Jennifer’s reticence, it can be a jarring, even if one is aware of it. This is NOT a condemnation of Jennifer, whom noone should doubt I am a big fan of-as if there by now is any doubt. I wish now I’d traveled out of state before to meet her. And I do love things Trek beyond K/J…like meeting-TWICE-John DeLancie out there in the hotel proper, ETHAN PHILLIPS in an elevator-no lie, gang-just he, and I-and chatting a bit, plus shaking hands in passing with the affable Avery Brooks! THE EMISSARY!!!…and having breakfast-again, true story-with George Takei in a booth mere feet away in the restaurant. I even got an ”OH, MY” moment out of him! AND the NX-01’s helmsman himself, Anthony Montgomery-again, just us-on the way upstairs…..

170. Douglas - August 13, 2010

The public personal attacks and remarks denigrating Ms. Lien in these postings have been shocking and something I’ve never experienced before among a gathering of Star Trek fans. It’s sad, cruel and something I want no part of reading. I look to this web site for news and discussions regarding Star Trek, not destructive raging or the spewing of hate. If this tone keeps up in other news postings it would serve no useful purpose to visit this site again. I hope there will be some reasonable moderating of postings by the managers of this site this site so things don’t degenerate to this level again.

171. skyjedi - August 13, 2010

I loved her character. The episode in which she returned i hated though, i cannot remember exactly but i think she came back as an evil character or something which i thought destroyed the character they had built up.

When they first replaced her with seven of 9 i thought seven would be a character of looks only, but was surprised when Jeri Ryan was a good actor and could be really good with a great script..

I think at first she was added as a ratings thing and as fanboy eye candy, but whomever had the idea to write the character with some intelligence should be thanked.

172. skyjedi - August 13, 2010

Also what i like about the characters in the star trek universe in the films and tv shows is their humanity that they feel like real people. Unlike star wars which is pretty much character archetypes..

173. P Technobabble - August 13, 2010

Some people think that because another human being gets a job that puts them in front of the public, it makes them an open target for whatever… any sort of observation, or comment, or opinion — informed or uninformed — is “freedom of speech,” hmm? I’m not completely sure where this attitude originated, nor am I completely sure it is simply human nature, nor am I really sure there’s any justification for it. In any case, it seems hardly above the “Enquirer/tabloid” mentality that thrives on playing the “gotcha” game. IMO.

174. TMMW (formerly TrekMadeMeWonder) - August 13, 2010

173. P Technobabble

Thanks for chimming in with that lovely PC mentality. Welcome to the Enquirer then. And through all the above comments, I am sure that anyone with an adult sense of mind could easily see past some of the degrading comments and gather a little wheat from the chaff while avoiding the tares.

C’mon defenders of Jen. If you had not seen a ‘friend’ after ten years and there was such a change, would you not comment? Not even a question?
I would question your aligiance then too.

You have to admit, our outward physical appearance IS important on a few levels. I for one do not choose to hide my true thoughts about someone’s appearance. Especially for someone whom I’ve cared about.

Yes, Jen. We care obviously still care a great deal about you!
In a good, good way.

Thoughts and prayers to you, Jen!




There has been recent proof that that stuff really helps!

So Jen, if your sitting back enjoying a warm day and maybe an Iced tea, and you feel a sense of happiness, security and warmth come over you, it just might be your fanbase wishing you happiness and a great day!

175. Phil - August 13, 2010

The example that gets thrown out is “what you you say if a friend/relative, whatever”….It’s an apples to oranges comparison. If I know someone well, and they have chosen to share with me what was going on, that’s understandable and acceptable, and open for discussion. What isn’t, would be for me to make an observation, then begin to speculate on the cause.

If Ms. Lien had chose to share personal details of her life with the fan base, then all this would be open for discussion. She has not, so it’s inappropiate to fill in the blanks. That’s what tabloids do, and they make a ton of money in the process. Not saying it’s right, but it’s there..

176. Losira - August 13, 2010

#164. Many thanks for sharing your story on your encounter with Jennifer. Chichen soup for a trekkie’s soul it was. I know its late for this year, but I talked to several fans about inviting if not shanghie jennifer for Dragon Con here in Atlanta. We have a lot of Kes fans that would love to see her, and interact with her, just as she is. She would honor our great city and us by gracing our Con. Jen if you are reading this please consider coming to Dragon Con. We would be thrilled if you could. And you will get a heepin helping of our southern hospitality.

177. Eric Wilson - August 13, 2010

#176. You’re most welcome. It indeed would be great, if Jen attended Dragoncon-a lot closer for me than Vegas! #171. I must admit, I was SHOCKED when ”Fury”, the ep you mentioned, aired. This was NOT our Kes-of course, that was the whole point of the ep, which I believe to many Kesfans was a downer. There was a restoration at the ending, but I felt it was too quick a departure scene in the transporter room (yes, I love a nice, intense, emotional scene, especial[y when involving Kes and her friends)Ethan said a lot though, in his eyes when, in response to her question, ”See anyone you know?”..”ONLY YOU” Just wish for a bit more therein, still.But, time gives perspective, and, even then, I was very glad to have Jen back, if only once. Pity a way couldn’t have been found to bring her back one last time before the series ended, but, it would have not been a logical thing, given her choice to spend her last years, however long or short they might be(With the mutated form she had, who’s to say it wasn’t the latter, appearance aside)on Ocampa. Ah, but a fan-writer knows ways….!

178. Eric Wilson - August 13, 2010

Um, correction. I meant, the latter, i.e. a longer lifespan, re how long she may have had after end of the ep…. The great thing about Trek, and Voyager fandom, is that we don’t necessarily have to always tailor our fic completely to the screen events, as long as there is some logical means to present out ‘turn of events’…if Spock can be brought back..”there are always possibilities…”

179. P Technobabble - August 13, 2010

174. TMMW

“…If you had not seen a ‘friend’ after ten years and there was such a change, would you not comment? Not even a question?
I would question your aligiance then too…”

In fact, I wouldn’t be the one bringing it up. I would wait for my ‘friend’ to open the door to a conversation, based entirely upon that ‘friend’s’ comfort zone, and not impose my own logic over the situation. In a meeting situation, I wouldn’t say, “Hey, friend, what’s goin on, you look so different…” To me, that is just insensitive. If he/she, on the other hand, wanted to open up and discuss his/her personal life with me, then it’s on HIS/HER terms… not mine. This is what I feel is a matter of respect. And, I prefer to be an “open ear,” rather than a commentator.

Typically, I am not in favor of so-called PC-ness, especially where a sense of humor is a requirement. But I don’t think discussing someone’s appearance or circumstance is, typically, a humorous matter and when the other person is not even in the same room to respond it comes off rather gossip-y, don’t ya think?

I am not any less a fan of Jennifer than you or any other Trekkie. I simply don’t think we should be discussing another person’s business when it is really none of ours. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it…

180. Hat Rick - August 13, 2010

Jennifer Lien played Kes with such a wide-eyed innocence that I will say that of all the adult characters in Star Trek, Kes was among the most sympathetic. The fact that Kes only had 9 years in her entire lifetime made every moment count.

I want to take this moment to say how much I appreciate the fact that Kes was brought to life by Ms. Lien and also express how much more I think there could have been made of her character.

I am in agreement with many that “Fury” was a disservice to Kes and should be stricken from canon, if only that were possible. I don’t know what the writers were thinking when they came up with the idea. Was this, too, a “Valentine” to the fans? This ranks right up there with killing Trip Tucker for no discernible reason.

If there is any character that deserves to be remembered fondly for her essential kindness, it is Kes.

181. Eric Wilson - August 13, 2010

#180.Well put, Hat Rick. Thanks. You know, there is a ST writer, whose name escapes me at the moment(I believe he wrote perhaps a Mirror U Voyager or other Voyager short)who stated, and this has stuck with me, ”Kes was an underused character” One I assume can take this to mean that he felt she still had potential on the series, in his view. Good for him! You were talking about ”Fury” ought to be ”stricken from canon”; yes, I pondered in my own fan-writing(Kes being my main focus, though not solely, of course)to ‘pretend it never happened’ but, decided it not to be realistic enough to the character, and, there was a restoration(Thus the title)in time, a concept I’m still working on as a whole. I think one of the main aspects of Kes as Jen played her was her profound kindness(atta girl, Jen!)and gentleness…things that in great part drew me to the character. In the novel ”Marooned”, when the crew is looking for her after her abduction, Janeway offers to a deeply-worried Neelix, ”There isn’t a person on this ship, who hasn’t felt her caring touch, as she tended them in Sickbay” That’s been a favorite line of mine for a while. Kes was always a positive force on Voyager, shown well, thanks in part to Jennifer’s fine portrayal.

182. TMMW (foremerly TrekMadeMeWonder) - August 13, 2010

179. P Technobabble

Point made and acknowledged.

183. mars396 - August 14, 2010

and ….. Jennifer Lien CANCELED her appearance here in NJ tomorrow. Probably because of you jerks. Thanks

184. Kevin from Australia - August 15, 2010

My wife and I LOVED Voyager and we loved Kes. I was at the Vegas Con and I was a bit puzzled as to why she was not really in the spirit of it with the other guys but your article clears things up. She is out of showbiz and give her a break – it’s nearly 10 years on. She’s a mum and she is doing other things. Don’t be critical people. She is KES. And that will never change.

185. TMMW - August 15, 2010

183. mars396

Please. If that’s true then you both need a new spine.

186. Herb Finn - August 15, 2010

Has any former TREK cast member ever been treated so badly as Jennifer Lien by the fans? I can’t think of one. (Even Wil Weation never got this much flack and now he’s like the coolest “Geek” around – But yet they never invite him to Vegas anymore…why?)

First, She gets the biggest screw in Trek history next to Grace Lee Whitney, then she has some personal issues (Regardless of which stories are true or not,they habve to have some basis in fact – just overblown by the fan press), and now years later when she makes attempts to re-connect with the TREK community, threads like this pop up.

It’s times like this I’m ashamed to be a Star Trek Fan.

Ms.Lien still has a fans and a supporter in me.

187. Douglas - August 15, 2010

#186 I was also thinking of Grace Lee Whitney and the terrible personal problems she had after leaving the original series. Her autobiography spells out her personal struggles and she’s to be greatly respected for getting through it all.

I was looking forward to seeing Ms. Lien at the NJ convention and hearing her speaking about Voyager. I also think some of the cruel statements against her made it back to her. I think her personal journey after Voyager must be very interesting, very human, and I hope someday to learn about it. Falling on hard times is not cause for a cruel attack. Hanging on and speaking about it takes enormous courage.

Whatever your journey has been Ms. Lien, I respect you for your courage and authentic personality. From all accounts you have been a kind and sensitive person and that deserves respect.

188. Eric Wilson - August 15, 2010

Hello, my friends. I just now-1:03 a.m., EST-looked at…where, all those of you who were so understandably dissappointed that Jen could not make the convention..there is an explanation. As posted by one ”Mr.Atoz”-that Jennifer had to cancel due to a family emergency. I wanted those of you, firstly, who were of course so sad to hear Our Jen wasn’t able to come know..and of course, let’s all send our strongest good thoughts, prayers, and well-wishes out to our dear favorite lady, and those she loves. God bless you, Jen. We hope all will be well. Take vare. We’re with you. To see the post, simply go to, hit the ”news” tab, and scroll down it should be there.

189. mars396 - August 16, 2010

At first, after Vegas, it was announced that she wouldn’t be appearing at the NJ convention, but would honor her autograph and photo op tickets. Then, at the convention, surprise! it was announced that she suddenly couldn’t make it because of a sick kid (but, amazingly, JG Hertzler, with 5 minutes notice, was able to replace her). I don’t believe that for a second.

She was barely “there” in Vegas, and then there was all this online awfulness slung her way. She canceled her appearance; there is no sick kid.

I seriously doubt we will ever see Jennifer Lien at a convention again. A shame, really.

190. TMMW - August 16, 2010

More drama?

191. mikeypikey - August 16, 2010

..Leave Kes alone, Leave kes alone!…….

192. Eric Wilson - August 16, 2010

I think, with respect, we need to give Jennifer a little bit of credit,here, and not jump to conclusions, and try to step back a bit..

193. Herb Finn - August 18, 2010

#189 – Creation Always has a Trek actor/actress on stand by for conventions in case a guest is unable to appear. For years ( and maybe still) Marina Sirtis was a “stand by last minute fill in”. (How do you think she became the one TNG cast member to do the most conventions?)

I would hate to think that word of little on-line nastiness from a handful of narrow minded “fans” got back to Ms. Lien and she got cold feet and made up a ‘sick kid’/’family emergency’ excuse. I’d like to think she’s more professional than to use an excuse to back out of an apperance.

However, It’s no secret that in the past she’s been overwhelmed (Both good and bad) by the convention scene. Clearly Vegas shows it – but it’s great that she took the time and effort to come out,come on stage and appear with her cast mates.

194. Bob - September 26, 2010

I am fast aproaching 70yrs old UK pensioner and still a fan of Jennifer Lien a beauty of womanhood. Cameras can play dirty tricks and I’ve no time for the ‘btichy’ comments of some so called fans. I say good luck, good health, and all Jennifer Lien and her family wishes for.

195. Chalk - November 13, 2010

I wish she got back to the entertainment business, if anything, Voice Acting, her voice was, correction, IS, superb.

196. Ken - January 16, 2011

Dude she is still hot. I would still tap that.

197. rosie - January 25, 2011

wow she looks so different!! I loved kes… she was the best charecter in the whole show! I was extremely shocked about her leaving. I new that she wouldn’t last the whole journey due to the fact she is ocampa but really whyyyy so soon?

198. Stephanie Cosey Mihalich - March 10, 2011

I went to school with Jennifer and she was a great person with so much talent. I am so very proud to have known you for even such a small amount of time. I remember when she would miss school to go out on auditions and no one knew. We would sit together at lunch. I just hope her life has turned out to be whatever she wanted.

199. harold - July 22, 2011

From everything ive read it sounds like she may be suffering from social anxiety disorder. Basically this is to shyness what clinical depression is to feeling sad. It would explain her leaving the acting profession and her extreme discomfort with the scrutiny involved with meeting fans and strangers and sitting onstage and being asked questions in front of a crowd. For someone with this disorder that would be a nightmare scenario that would only be tolerable with the aid of medication. Not trying to be a “gossip”, just a possibility to consider when judging someone we dont know’s behaviour.

Perhaps also worth noting the antidepressants commonly prescribed as treatment often have the side effect of producing weight gain that is extremely resistant to diet/exercise intervention.

200. Tarloke Johal - October 2, 2011

this was her yesterday.

I have heard people say who have met her have said she is rude. I thought nothing of the sort. She was very shy and within herself and finds convention situations hard. I did say something to her and she didnt hear it but i repeated it and she said thank you. I also said it was nice to meet you and she said and you. I thought she was lovely and still is my favourite Trek character.

201. Mulgrew/Janeway Pride - January 2, 2012

2012: We need another compelling female Janeway Captain and a Kess on the trek airwaves. Sci Fi TV is so uninteresting now.

I Like Kess, because of Ms. Liens portrayal of this character.

I just started watching the Voyager series. I am at season 4 and began searching reasons of why Kess’s character was so shoddily cut from the series, the sudden hairstyle change, the sudden drift away from neelix, so on. No explanations, it was all rushed to end her (Kess) out of Voyager. Like the producers knew in the middle of season 3.

Anyways, I went online to investigate, and saw Ms. Liens last convention photo with Mr. Wang, and to tell the truth, if I saw her next to me, I wouldn’t recognize her as the same person.

People are talking about she’s a mom, which is ridiculous, because there are plenty of moms out there who look even younger and better than their age, (So its not about age either) and don’t look like they just stepped out of bed. show business is cruel to women actors. I used to be overweight and not get cast for parts. now I lost the weight and get treated better. Nevertheless, when I was obese, I did dress and present myself in a attractive way. Ms. Lien is really a voice actor, so she can look anyway she wants, but a convention is like a job interview, so I personally would of dressed accordingly; as a few have commented. Both fans and Ms. Lien need to be respected. Voyager is about the depths of the human condition, spiritually and otherwise. impacting relationships that also questioned our individual existence as living beings. So even now, after all these years, that relationship between fans and Voyager is still important. So let’s nurture that.

STILL I just wanted to know why such a great actor like Ms. Lien and a compelling character like Kess was taken off the roster.

and what really happened.

I still have unanswered questions on the last episodes in season 3 as I said above, the thoughts of the cast, and about why they cut Kess/Ms. Lien off. so on….

I even heard a mp3 of Mr. Wang…

I need more Voyager…..

202. zed - February 10, 2012

damn! she’ll be 38 this year but looks like in her mid 50s! what the hell happened to her?

203. MS - April 24, 2012

It’s bad enough she’s fat and ugly, but the Wal-Mart wardrobe and the bag lady hair and glasses is just embarrassing.

204. Chakotay - May 2, 2012

This how human respect for themself, errectic, disorder even to her kind. Maybe borg are better. Please assimilate this useless human

205. Jean Luc Picard - June 13, 2012

Jennifer Lien is the best. I loved her and always will – no matter what she looks like. Co…or! that voice, youthful look and inherent maturity. I like keeping things real. what she looks like now is a reflection of her soul. She does not like fakes and loves keeping things simple and real – like love for her kid or kids and being stress free. God what a lucky husband she’s got. I wish also that she had stayed with voyager till the end even if she fills out – I dont understand why there were no fat people on star trek. maybe it means we wil all be vain in the future. is represented by Gorilla Nation. Please contact Gorilla Nation for ad rates, packages and general advertising information.