VIDEO: TrekMovie Star Trek Fan Panel At Trek Las Vegas Con | TrekMovie.com
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VIDEO: TrekMovie Star Trek Fan Panel At Trek Las Vegas Con August 21, 2010

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Conventions/Events/Attractions,Fandom,Star Trek (2009 film),Star Trek Into Darkness,TrekMovie.com , trackback

Two weeks ago TrekMovie hosted a fan panel at the Creation Star Trek Star Convention to discuss the 2009 Star Trek movie, and the 2012 sequel. Joined by Larry Nemecek, Mary Czerwinski and Vernon Wilmer, we (and the audience) discussed and debated the new universe of Star Trek. You can watch video of the full panel below.

 

Las Vegas Con Fan Panel on Star Trek 2009 and 2012

At the Star Trek convention in Las Vegas I hosted a panel called "Star Trek From a Fan’s Perspective" which was an opportunity for fans to talk about the 2009 Star Trek movie and the coming 2012 Trek sequel. Joining me were a collection fellow ‘super fans’ Vernon Wilmer (director of "Star Trek: My Experience"), Mary Czerwinski (“Televixen” from www.dvdgeeks.tv) and writer and former Star Trek Communicator editor Larry Nemecek (www.larrynemecek.com). The panel and audience discussed and debated elements of the first movie, including issues with canon. We also talked about the sequel, including sharing an update on writing progress (with a picture) from Star Trek co-writer Roberto Orci. Here is the full video (note it is 44 minutes long).

It was a fun panel and I want to thank Vernon for being the ‘token purist’ who brought an important voice to the discussions. For me the most interesting stuff came from the audience. Most of the audience were first time convention attendees, who were new (or renewed) fans because of the new movie. Almost all in attendance were fans of the film, but of course there was lots of nitpicking. Here are some highlights from audience feedback:

Finally, a big thanks to John Champion of www.DVDGeeks.tv who shot and edited the video.

Comments

1. James Cannon - Runcorn Trekkie UK - August 21, 2010

Interesting …

2. Buzz Cagney - August 21, 2010

Oh dear. Please no more Klingons. :-(

3. Jeff O'Connor - August 21, 2010

I can’t find myself in agreement with you, Buzz. Sure, they’ve been damn near done to death, but importantly, they haven’t been done by JJ Abrams and his crew. In fact, the deleted scenes with them in the new film seemed rather interesting, IMO.

From a box office standpoint, I think it would be a wise decision, too. People are now engaged in this new product and some analysts are predicting a turnout for the new film approaching the explosion that was “The Dark Knight” in 2008. What better way to ensure that than to bring in that one race whose name is familiar to many non-Trekkies but was quite conspicuously absent from the first film? Indeed, “the Klingons are back and they want Kirk’s blood” would get a lot of casuals talking.

It might not be the coolest idea, it sure as hell ain’t the most original and it will no doubt be seen as a cop-out to some folks. But I think it makes the most sense.

4. Will_H - August 21, 2010

Glad to hear that most don’t want Khan to be in the next movie. I could do with Klingons, they haven’t been in a Trek movie since Generations and even then they were only a side villain. They haven’t been the true antagonists since VI which was in 91, so its been close to two decades. I hope its just not generic Klingons, though, Kirk needs a cunning Klingon to face off against. But hey, as long as its not Khan or Mudd I’m ok with it. Also glad to see that most didn’t like the Spock/Uhura thing, they seriously need to drop that by the next film. It felt forced to me like just randomly, “hey, Spock and Uhura are together, just to piss off Kirk, deal with it.” But it seems like they listen to the fans so that gives me hope.

5. Startrekker - August 21, 2010

I didn’t mind the Spock and Uhura relationship

6. captain_neill - August 21, 2010

4 I didn’t like personally but it didn’t ruin the film from me

I was at part of the panel but because of a photo op I had to miss a bit of this, thank you for having it on video. I can catch it later.

In regards to the timelione business I accept it as a parallel universe that does not invalidate what came before. I do feel that if it had invalidate past Trek’s then more fans would not have been happy with film.

But I do understand the confusion as it is not very clear in the film other than Uhura saying Alternative Reality.

I got the new expanded edition of the score at the con and now I love the music for StarTrek XI a lot more. So glad I bought it.

Hearing fan opinion at the con has allowed me to mellow on my gripes with the movie. I now look forward even more to next film.

I did raise my hand at con for no Khan and not liking the Spock and Uhura relationship.

Regarding canon, I just treat the new movie as a separate entity.

7. Holo J - August 21, 2010

Surely all parallel universes are just realities where the timeline has been altered somehow from the Prime timeline? So this alternative timeline the movie has created is indeed a now a parallel universe, no?

8. Al - August 21, 2010

The girl with the audience mike is hot, in a stern sort of way

9. Buzz Cagney - August 21, 2010

#3 Jeff, you are so right. Well about the klingons having indeed been done to death.
I want something new and original from the new team. I’m honestly staggered at the lack of imagination shown by the people that want more of the same.
Depressing.

10. James - August 21, 2010

#9 I would totally be in the same boat as you if this were a true reboot. But it isn’t. This is a divergent timeline. I would expect everything to be the same in this universe except the things that have been changed by Nero (which is significant, I admit). And Klingons were HUGE in the Prime timeline and I haven’t seen anything that has changed that in this new timeline.

I wish they would have just done a straight up reboot. Not to invalidate what has come before, the reboot should have been based on that legacy, but a fresh start would have been good (IMHO).

11. trekprincess - August 21, 2010

Why can’t some accept Nu Trek?

12. Dalek - August 21, 2010

It’s strange that they would not want a character who has only appeared twice in the franchise history, yet they’d want to see the Klingons who have appeared more times than anyone can count.

Khan is Kirk’s arch nemesis.

Like Lex Luthor is Supermans, like The Master is The Doctors.

You bring out the best drama in your characters when you have them confront their arch nemesis.

Klingons been done to death… boring!

Khan has barely been touched on!

13. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - August 21, 2010

I think the next movie should be an orignal and not something we have seen. If you have klingons then have them help starfleet against some new threat and not a threat that has been done before. The one thing I would most want changed in the Next Trek Movie is a new and better Engerneering section and not the Brewery we got in 09. As for Spock and Uhurah im ok with it. There were some Hints at it in Tos.

14. Lore - August 21, 2010

The big question about Klingons (for everyone who watched ENTERPRISE & DS9) is will they be the human looking Klingons (who tried to use the human genetic enhancements and ended up just looking human) or the WORF variety Klingon we were introduced to us in STTMP.

15. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - August 21, 2010

#14. I think we may see a Combo. Remember that on the Enterprise Eps we seen how the Klingons became Human looking when they tried to use the Augment Virus to make them stronger but of course it almost backfired and Dr Pholx was able to find the cure for the Virus but left most Klingons looking Human. At some point they are able to retake there form as you see then in the Movies and Tng. Case in point. Kang and Kolof and Kor were human looking on Tos but in Ds9 they got there Klingon forms back and in the Voyager Ep when Tuvok and Janeway did the Mind Meld we see Capt Sulu on the Excelsior Talking to Kang and he had his Ridges back. So it is possible that we may see some Klingons with the ridges and some not.

16. Remington Steele - August 21, 2010

Ah so thats what you look like anthony!

good to put a face to the name!

17. sean - August 21, 2010

I like the Spock/Uhura relationship and I’m a dude, so take that! Honestly though, there were hints in TOS. And at least it wasn’t the Uhura/Scotty relationship from Star Trek V. *shudder*

18. ChristopherPike - August 21, 2010

Count me in among those who thought Kirk should not have risen to Captain, in one move from the Academy. IMHO it sends completely the wrong message about earning a reputation.

I mean I could join the army and take a bullet for the General, but that wouldn’t automatically lead to a high promotion. You would need to show years of experience leading your peers and Kirk shown none of that. Indeed in the one instance he’s famous for, the Kobayashi Maru, he cheats and treats a psychologically demanding test like it’s a joke!

I still can’t buy that rise to power. Yes, it’s fantasy but every previous iteration of Star Trek dealt with promotion with far more realism.

19. Lore - August 21, 2010

#17 Kirk didn’t just take a bullet. He devised a battle plan that saved Earth from the fate Vulcan suffered, rescued his commanding officer (Capt Pike), and when he had disabled the Romulan Ship, he offered them assistance (the right thing to do and shows he understands the founding principals of Starfleet). He did it all right, and he did it when everyone else said it couldn’t be done.

20. Vultan - August 21, 2010

Yeah… well, Riker, Data and Worf saved their captain and Earth from the Borg and they got diddly squat when it came to promotions. Heck, Riker was even demoted from his field commission in the next episode. Guess honoring Admiral Hanson’s memory by keeping Riker a captain must’ve rubbed somebody the wrong way at Starfleet HQ. Or maybe Billy Boy really was afraid of the big chair… ;)

Anyway, I wouldn’t take promotions too seriously when it comes to Star Trek. I mean, look at ST6:TUC. Just how many captains and commanders did they have on that darn ship?

21. SirBroiler - August 21, 2010

I think so many people are against Khan because they simply can’t appreciate the endless dramatic and creative opportunities a new timeline opens up for the character.

Think back to all of the Bat-Fans who vehemently opposed a new take on the Joker in The Dark Knight. Then, after seeing the movie, they all changed their mind – and SURPRISE – it won the late Heath Ledger an Oscar and helped garner unprecedented critical acclaim for a super-hero movie.

I personally would be excited to see a new take on Khan and his relationship with Kirk. The possibilities are endless when you think of all of the different ways Khan his crew could be discovered and awakened. (By the Klingons, the Romulans, the Borg – or our new Enterprise crew)

I hope the new high court of trek doesn’t compromise just to pacify overtly vocal fans who wouldn’t know how to tell a good story if their lives depended on it. JJ – go with your gut to create the BEST Trek story and the most exciting movie you can – whether it be Khan or Klingons or even Borg. It worked for Nolan – it will work for you.

I can’t wait to see this movie.

22. boborci - August 21, 2010

7. Holo J – August 21, 2010

Yes.

23. argie_bargie - August 21, 2010

if there are klingons in the new movie, it would be cool if they were rampaging around the place being brutal to everyone they come into contact with. they could board a ship and savagely tear everyone up, like how they were in all the other series talking about drinking blood and killing people where they stand, etc etc, lets see some of that savagery so they are actually scary. and i guess since they found the narada in the comic, maybe that couldve advanced their tech so that they can just go around blowing the hell out of stuff. wasnt there an explanation for the new look starfleet ships that the kelvin came into contact with the narada and starfleet became scared and made ships bigger? ( 2000 foot enterprise ) . i guess the same could be said of the klingons, they captured it right? couldnt they examine the thing a bit closer than just a few scans the kelvin got. i still havent read the nero comic yet though,and that is all if the klingons are actually in it. however, what ever the writers come up with, i’m sure it will be exceptional, they seem to have an accurate feel for the essence of what would make a good trek film.

24. Lore - August 21, 2010

#20 Go back and watch the episode sir. Riker turned down the Captain’s chair. He said “My career plans are my own business”. He elected to stay on the Enterprise, the Flagship of the Federation, where the real action was (as opposed to being Captain on a much lesser ship and therefore his efforts might be more easily overlooked, by staying on the Enterprise, he stayed in the spotlight). This was a brilliant move as he would later become “Commander Starfleet”.

25. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - August 21, 2010

Hey Bob. In Trek 12 if you have Klingons have some of them like in the Tos and some with the ridges. That would keep up with what happend from Tos to The Motion Picture. What do you think.

26. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - August 21, 2010

Hey Bob Orci. Here is an idea. Maybe show how the Klingons went from looking like they did on Tos to like they did in the Motion Picture.

27. Lore - August 21, 2010

#26 They already did that on Star Trek Enterprise.

28. jas_montreal - August 21, 2010

@ 26 Capt Mike of the Terran Empire

They already did show that ! In a episode of Enterprise. The augments story arc.

29. Allen Williams - August 21, 2010

if we bring back the klingons can we not bring back the klingons in the deleted scenes from Star trek 2009? Those helmets looked horrible. Also they sounded like lame fans attempting to speak klingon rather than a decent actor who was coached like in the past.

30. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - August 21, 2010

No. I mean how they found the cure to turn them back into the Klingons we see in Tmp.

31. MorbidGorn - August 21, 2010

Klingons in the new movie? Yes I say.

I would even like to Kang, Kor, Koloth (WITH ridges) or Kruge.

However, the story should be something new, not retold.

32. Rocket Scientist - August 21, 2010

The promotion thing–I had such a good time watching the movie so I let it slide, but it doesn’t stand up to repeat viewings on DVD.

33. Valar1 - August 21, 2010

The same fools who can’t wrap their heads around “Alternative Timeline” lap up the “Mirror Universe”.

34. Christopher Doohan - August 21, 2010

In this parallel universe, Scotty was actually sitting next to his son in the transporter room and he didn’t know it. :)

35. Anthony L. - August 21, 2010

@34 Now that’s what I call parallel!

36. Bryan - August 21, 2010

Thank you for the video much appreciated! It felt like I was there in the auditorium bravo!

37. Commodore shaggy - August 21, 2010

My thoughts on the rapid promotion – they could have skipped the whole problem by doing an “11 years later” sort of thing. I know they wouldn’t have looked any older but that would have been better than the surreal promotion.

38. Phaser Guy - August 21, 2010

Kirk was rapidly promoted because he helped save Earth and the Enterprise.. Durh.

39. Commodore shaggy - August 21, 2010

Kirk saved Earth in TMP – No promotion
Saves Earth in STIV – doesn’t stay Admiral because of his actions in STIII, which apparently outweigh saving Earth from the Whale probe.

And as was mentioned, Kirk wasn’t the only person involved in saving everything, his crew played a role but they didn’t get huge, unrealistic promotions.

But what’s done is done. I am glad they have the whole crew together for the next film, I just think it could have been reached in a better way.

40. jorDe' - August 21, 2010

I say No Khan because there can never be a replacement for Ricardo Montalban.

41. Phaser Guy - August 21, 2010

Kirk got the Enterprise in TMP, and Decker was demoted.

42. Alec - August 21, 2010

I’ve just watched the video and felt compelled to comment! I can’t understand the logic of these fans. Consider the following.

They say ‘Give us something new: not just a ‘remake’; we don’t want a new-look Khan’. But then they immediately suggest having new-look Klingons, even mentioning specific old characters such as Kor and Kang etc!

They say ‘Khan’s been done already; so give us the Klingons’. But Khan has been done twice: the Klingons have been done hundreds of times! Khan would be a comparative ‘breath of fresh air’.

They say ‘Khan’s been done amazingly well; so give us the Klingons’. But perhaps Khan can be done amazing well again. Besides, are they suggesting that the Klingons haven’t been done ‘amazingly’ well? What about TUC? What about episodes such as Redemption, Way of the Warrior, etc.

They say ‘Vulcan’s destruction must impact upon the new story and Spock’. But we can’t assume that people who see the sequel will have seen Star Trek 09. New fans shouldn’t be confused by prior events they haven’t necessarily seen: events that the filmmakers can’t assume have been seen. When you start relying heavily on prior films you alienate new fans. This is what went wrong with Star Trek in the first place…

I say that Star Trek 2009 was very good, and that the filmmakers should essentially follow that same formula. However, I would like to see better production design with a proper Star Trek engineering set. And either Khan or the Borg would make an excellent villain (both are out there in the new timeline: the latter, thanks to Enterprise). N.B., Montalban cannot ever be replaced. However, he can be recast. The same is true of Shatner and Nimoy & co. Just give us a good, compelling, character-driven and action-packed film and we’ll all be happy.

43. Dalek - August 21, 2010

#40 A fair comment on the issue!

#22 Bob Orci, if this timeline is parallel to the Prime timeline, let’s have NuKirk meet Prime Kirk in a crossover (Pine can play both, as the timelines will be the same era) and warn him about that pesky Nexus (he could have gained foresight thru the mind-meld of Prime Kirk’s fate).

44. Commodore shaggy - August 21, 2010

@41 – But getting both the enterprise and Captain from a cadet in one swing for doing the same thing is a bit unrealistic. And Decker’s demotion was a temporary thing that happened before Earth was saved since Decker was really the one to save Earth but Kirk got the credit anyways. I know it’s sci-fi but even in the ST universe, the ST09 promotion is unprecedented. Sure, they set it up for Kirk to be a whizkid of sorts but it still was done out of convenience to get the story to a certain desired point. As we see in the video above, I am not alone in having a slight problem with it.

Other ST examples:

Captain Picard

Saved Earth from the Borg in First Contact – received no reward
Essentially saved Earth in Nemesis – got a seat belt for his chair

Captain Archer

Saved Earth from the Xindi & Sphere Builders – got some schools named after him, no promotion to Admiral until after several years of service and presumably saved Earth from the Romulan invasion.

45. Willardcanada - August 21, 2010

I would almost think that it’s time that this crew of the Enterprise had their villian, something new and original.

Kirk had the Klingons, Picard had the Borg, Sisko had the Dominion, Janeway got Borg-Lite and Archer got the Xindi. NuKirk should have a new bad guy.

46. Vultan - August 21, 2010

#24

Um, yeah, I just watched “Best of Both Worlds” on BBC-A last night. Shelby said she assumed Riker could have any command in the fleet. C’mon, the Enterprise can’t be the only ship that sees lots of action (I’m reminded of a certain tough little ship that came about from the Borg invasion.) And we all know that “my career plans are my own business” was just a cop-out to keep Frakes in the second banana chair and on the show.

Rationalize Kirk’s hyperspace jump from cadet to captain all you want. I’ll just pretend it never happened. Hopefully, the writers will too and start the sequel with a seasoned Kirk in command (like in TOS). I can do without the Pike/Obi-wan mentorship. Hmm, funny how Star Wars keeps leaping into my thoughts when thinking about this new universe…

47. Phaser Guy - August 21, 2010

Lol, what fleet. The fleet was destroyed by the Borg. Shelby was nuts.

48. Vultan - August 21, 2010

#47

Forty or so ships doesn’t constitute the entire Starfleet (yeah, I know they’re always comically undermanned, but c’mon…). Those were the only ships in range to engage the Borg cube. And I’m sure the USS Grissom-A was out there guarding against a Romulan invasion while the other ships were being built. ;)

49. SirMartman - August 21, 2010

I say bring on the Klingons,, but,,

If their ships are seen in space,, it means trouble

Keep the helmets on,, A Klingon should never remove his helmet or show his face to a human.

Keep them in the dark,,,
as we all know, theres nothing more disturbing than something you cant see.

I would love to see the return of Khan,, theres so much for the new Trek to touch on, and Im sure the genetically-engineered Human augments of the late-20th century Eugenics Wars are still out there,,

or how did the Governor Kodos killings 2246 work out in the new Trek,, ?

or will we see ,,,

George Samuel Kirk, James Kirk’s brother.
Aurelan Kirk, George Samuel Kirk’s wife, and thus James Kirk’s sister-in-law.
Peter Kirk, son of George and Aurelan Kirk.
Tiberius Kirk, James Kirk’s paternal grandfather.

Or maybe the return of Sybok ?

I cant wait to see the next Trek,,,Theres so much to touch on,with over 40 years of Trek History.

I just hope Prime Spock gets sent back to Prime Kirks fist fight, so Spock can save his freind.

It gets prime Spock back to Prime Kirk,
Kirk is saved,
Dr Soran is caught, and (may return)
Picard rides off into the sunset.

Because I would LOVE to see Shatner and Nimoy together for one last moment,, Im sure millions of other Trek fans would too.

In my eyes,The new Trek can only really move forward by its self until it deals with the ghosts of Treks past.

:)

50. bgiles73 - August 21, 2010

I cast my vote for Robert Downey Jr as Koloth!

51. Phaser Guy - August 21, 2010

If someone was assigned to the Enterprise, why would they want to go off and command some crappy ship no one’s ever heard of?

52. Vultan - August 21, 2010

#51

You mean like the USS Titan? ;)

53. Vultan - August 21, 2010

Or the USS Excelsior (Captain Sulu)?

54. Vultan - August 21, 2010

Anyway, the universe doesn’t revolve around ships named Enterprise. William Shatner maybe…

55. Bill Peters - August 21, 2010

I want Klingons on in the filim but I must be in a Minority on this site, Klingons can be done wihtout being the main Villians!

Also like to see if we can get a Camo or two from living TOS Members not as there Charcters but as maybe Grandparents or others related to the Characters they played.
.

56. N - August 21, 2010

Anthony you just keep pushing that Khan thing. The Klingons need to be established in the AR universe.

57. N - August 21, 2010

Please lets just ignore the ridge, non ridge Klingons issue. They have Ridges & they need to act like a space faring Civilization as in TOS not act like a bunch of long hair Neandethals in TNG. Short hair & Ridges get my vote.

58. TrekkerChick - August 21, 2010

Carnivorous tribbles… Big carnivorous tribbles.

(LOL)

59. Phaser Guy - August 21, 2010

Yeah, the Titan where Wesley Crusher is your Engineer?

60. Rocket Scientist - August 21, 2010

Gotta say…Vernon’s opinions really struck home for me. As much as I understand the reasons behind clearing the decks for these characters, it’s rather difficult to jettison all the canon and go to warp. They’re beloved because we’ve shared so much history with them.

But will I be watching to see where this timeline leads? You betcha! And I’ll probably be kicking and screaming the entire way. Apologies in advance.

61. Weerd1 - August 21, 2010

Does Kirk getting command of the Enterprise stretch credibility? No. Pike put him in the First Officer position specifically to challenge Spock. He could not have foreseen the events leading to Kirk taking command, but we do and they make sense.

The question is why Kirk is allowed to KEEP command by Starfleet! If Pike was promoted away, why LEAVE Kirk in command of the Enterprise when I would assume there’s a few more Captains who could have taken the position. I can only think of a couple of possibilities:

Spock Prime. Spock must have convinced Starfleet of the necessity of Kirk being on that ship in order to try to steer the already fractured timeline back toward what “should” be. Also keep in mind, Trek established that the universe tends toward certain eventualities; hence all the parallel timelines which are only a few details different, and Kirk and Spock’s ability to find McCoy in City on the Edge of Forever. Call it destiny, fate, or quantum mechanics, but the Trek universe in any form wants Kirk in that chair.

There is a fine opportunity in another film to see how the Klingons get such a hate on for Kirk… that could be fun. However, if Khan DOES show up, I want to see Nester Carbonell play him!

62. Maj - August 21, 2010

It’s alright for the Klingons to be only a part of the movie, I just hope the whole film isn’t about them and them alone.

One of the great things about ST09 was how much ground they covered and how most of the scenes had a particular significance, per introduction for new fans.

I hope not for one single villain, I hope the next movie features multiple villains, and perhaps multiple allies as well.

63. BiggestTOSfanever - August 21, 2010

I think Spock Prime should be in the sequel working on the new Vulcan colony.
The Klingons got info about him from Nero on Rura Penthe so in the next movie they should be after him.
He should then escape back to the prime timeline via the Guardian of Forever.
But not before using some nifty transporter equation to save Amanda on the Enterprise.
I hope you’re listening BobOrci.

64. Jeff O'Connor - August 21, 2010

Things like showing how the Klingons redeveloped their ridges are exactly the sorts of issues I’d think Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof would try to avoid getting too wrapped up in. Too many viewers wouldn’t immediately grasp the whole situation, and getting involved in such a convoluted arc is not the best way to keep selling Trek to current moviegoers by and large.

Keep it simple enough for the casuals while engaging and reminiscent enough for as many Prime-verse Trekkies as possible. That’s the way to go… and they know that. :)

65. Jeff O'Connor - August 21, 2010

Oh, and I agree that Klingons shouldn’t be the sole focus in the sequel if they become one to begin with. They never were in the older films and that shouldn’t change now.

And yes, I’m aware of the existence of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Not just aware of it… it’s still my favorite movie in the series. (Trek 09 comes in second, FYI.) It was about the Klingons, but it was also about putting the past behind us and moving into the future forgiving the transgressions we and others have made in our lives. In a weird way that’s narrowly similar to the new movie, but that’s just reading too much into things of course.

I’d think if they were to tackle the Klingon Empire this time, they’d also want something else thrown into the mix as well. It’s the way it goes. What that something is would be anyone’s guess, but rebuilding Vulcan civilization and having that threatened by the Empire’s expansive nature could be a selling point.

66. Jeff O'Connor - August 21, 2010

There’s a run-on sentence up there. If you don’t care, I don’t care. Don’t care, so I can sleep later.

67. Boborci - August 21, 2010

Being a fan of Star Trek is unlike being a fan of anything else.

68. Boborci - August 21, 2010

63. Like that story. Unfortunately, as we’ve chosen QM to be our laws of physics (which i know some of you hate;))- your solution is not possible.

69. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - August 21, 2010

Bob Orci. You hit the nail on the head. There is nothing like being a fan of Star Trek. The Only close show is Star Wars and they are light years away from Trek.

70. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - August 21, 2010

Bob. You are living every fans dream in writing for Star Trek. Tell us. What does it feel like for you.

71. Lore - August 21, 2010

@47. Shelby got her promotion between the sheets anyway.

72. Lore - August 21, 2010

@63. Spock Prime is busy rebuilding the Vulcan population. The name of the new colony was changed from Vulcan to Viagra.

73. Boborci - August 21, 2010

70. I know how lucky I am. On the other hand, I do feel acutely aware that I have lost some of my fan experience. I would love, as a fan, not to have anything to do with Star Trek, and experience is as I used to. Its partly why I read so much of what everyone has to say.

It’s surreal.

74. Boborci - August 21, 2010

Correction: “experience IT as I used to.”

75. devonp - August 21, 2010

I think the romance between Spock/Uhura is valid & interesting, and has to continue now or else it throws off the newly established continuity. As well, it parallels the alternate timeline relationship which was based on deep respect with flirtation that never developed beyond that, but the possibility for more had existed at some point if their lives had evolved differently. I, too, am a male… one doesn’t need to be female to appreciate a positive, loving, well-balanced relationship.

76. VZX - August 21, 2010

I would love to experience Trek as a writer. Heh.

77. Jeff O'Connor - August 21, 2010

Bob,

I bet it *is* surreal. I’m in the odd position of envying you wholeheartedly, and then not envying you one bit. On the one hand you…

Well, you know.

78. VZX - August 21, 2010

The only thing that really bothered me about 09Trek was the rapid promotion of Kirk. But I remember commenting this on this website when the movie came out, and Bob Orci responded saying something about that we can think that there was a longer time period between the destruction of Nero’s ship and the official promotion of Kirk to captain. That and that it was uber-important to end the movie with that gold tunic on Kirk as captain.

79. Jeff O'Connor - August 21, 2010

@76:

It would certainly be something wild, but you’ve got to take into account all the intricacies and complications you’d suddenly be not only forcibly aware of, but ultimately responsible for dealing with. This franchise is deep… very deep. Not counting the literary expansions, it’s still one of the deepest things fiction has written — up there with things like LOTR.

It’s a dream job, but it’s a damn tough one, and it probably shatters a little bit of the magic while adding to it.

80. VZX - August 21, 2010

79. Jeff O’Connor – August 21, 2010 :

True, but I would gladly trade it all to have that dream job. I would enjoy the challenge.

81. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - August 21, 2010

Bob Orci. We have faith in you that you guys will give us another great movie like you did with trek 09. I my self and toying with writing a Novel and I have taking some writing classes. Being a fan is simply fantastic for the best Scifi show or any show for that matter. What other show does fans like us have so much passion for. Except maybe for Star Wars there is truly none that can compare.

82. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - August 21, 2010

Bob.Orci. Would you ever consider taking on a Star Trek series.

83. Red Dead Ryan - August 21, 2010

Being a writer for Star Trek has got to be a whole lot tougher than it seems. And it already seems tough. I’m sure though, it can be a ton of fun as well. Especially after an idea is created and the script can begin to take shape. It can be a gamble; sometimes everything works, sometimes nothing works, and sometimes its a mixed result. And it is impossible to please everyone.

Bob must feel like the luckiest guy in the world, but at the same time, must feel like he’s carrying a grand piano his back. But I want him to know that he’s got my support and admiration. There can be nothing more satisfying than to live out one’s dream.

84. Red Dead Ryan - August 21, 2010

Er, that should read….”must feel like he’s carrying a grand piano ON his back.”

85. Corinthian7 - August 21, 2010

# 74

With the fantastic work you’ve put in to revitalising the franchise we should be able to look forward to new trek for many years. Hopefully you will be able to recapture the magic of watching Trek purely as a fan again when you’ve retired! In the meantime though I look forward to seeing what else you come up with and i’m sure that i’m not alone in hoping to see you and Damon develop a new Star Trek TV show in the not too distant future!

86. Viking - August 21, 2010

Well Roberto, we’ve heard most people bandy about the wisdom of using Khan ,the Klingons, Harry Mudd, Q, the Borg, TGoF, Gary Mitchell, even the Daleks or Darth Vader, for that matter. (Did I leave out Romero’s zombies?) I vote that there’s a new villain, and/or a new threat, but one of Kirk’s Prime time line antagonists actually pop in to help the Enterprise save everyone’s bacon in this re-imagined quantum existence. Imagine Harry Mudd as Jack Sparrow and doing the good deed at the end of the day. Or Khan’s nobility is shown as chivalry instead of vanity. You get the idea. Work an angle on it.

87. Basement Blogger - August 21, 2010

Okay, I’m going to help Vernon here and tell you why some Trekkers had problems with “Star Trek ’09.” And by the way I liked the new movie. But it could have been better.

1. There was too much Star Wars influence. Star Trek is not Star Wars. And that’s not a dig at Star Wars. Star Trek is intelligent science fiction. One is fantasy, Star Trek is not. When you saw ads touting, “This is not your father’s Star Trek” that was disrespectful to the fans who made it successful. Think about the great and smart episodes, “The City on the Edge of Forever” “Arena” “The Doomsday Machine” Did this new movie fit with those shows? Not really. Abrams by his own admission was more into “Star Wars.” If you watch the documentary “A New Vision” on the DVD, they talk about what we can learn from “Star Wars.” Well, I would tell them use state of the art special effects. I would never say you need the ADHD pacing of Star Wars.

The first “Star Wars” was fun but more like Flash Gordon. The series had science fiction writers: Sturgeon, Ellison, Spinarad, etc. And you saw the problem when a number of fans didn’t get that Abrams created a parallel universe. That’s because the conversation on the bridge on this issue goes by so fast, that it’s easy to miss. Of course, a lot of this could have been corrected if the actors literally slowed down or maybe do a Data like graphic done in TNG “Parallels.” And stop with the “We don’t want to be lame like Star Wars midi-chlorian explanation.” The midi-chlorian explanation wasn’t needed for Star Wars but that didn’t kill that movie. Try Jar Jar Brinks. Creating a whole new parallel universe is mind boggling. In fact someone in the commentary during the Spock-Prime and Kirk scene wanted to add more dialogue. Yes, that would help. I mean think about it. Kirk finds out he has an alternate life. Questions in my mind would be, “What kind of man was I?” “Should I be more like that man?” “What’s my destiny?” etc.

DON’T DUMB DOWN THE AUDIENCE. RESPECT THEIR INTELLIGENCE. Abrams on the deleted scene from the Klingon prison planet, talks about reasons why he didn’t want the scene. He says, “It made the audience think too much.” There is absolutely nothing wrong with the audience thinking . Christopher Nolan has made too gigantic blockbusters in “Dark Knight” and “Inception.” Both were intelligent and made the audience think.

2. Destroying Vulcan. Stop all the talk about preserving canon. I mean I don’t care if they built the Enterprise in Iowa. But I do care if they destroyed one of the founding members of the Federation. That’s not preserving canon. That’s taking a sledge hammer and smashing it. Furthermore, it was not needed. You could have rebooted the movie without destroying Vulcan. And by the way, by doing so they’ve weakened the Federation. The pig guy Tellarites are going to protect us from the Klingons? I smell bacon.

3. Kirk is a young punk. Think about it my fellow Trekkers. Would you want to follow cadet Kirk as a member of the Enterprise? He was an over-sexed up punk. He doesn’t represent the thoughtful Kirk that we saw in the end of “Arena” “Balance of Terror” etc.

Here’s how I rate the Star Trek films.

http://berniebasementblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/rating-star-trek-films.html

88. Vultan - August 21, 2010

#87

Basement Blogger, you are so off base it’s not funny. Obviously, you completely missed what the Abrams Imperial Senate (sorry, “Supreme Court” just sounds too humble) was trying to accomplish with Trek ’09. With this masterpiece of modern cinema they have laid the groundwork for a new era of marketing old TV shows to the 13-25 demographic. Some day you will look back, my friend—some day you will realize this movie was a turning point in Nokia product placement, and the dawning of the sub-genre of lens-flare punk noir.

Like I said, I hope some day you will see the importance of this film. In the meantime… I will pray for you…

89. Dalek - August 21, 2010

#68 Bob, but Spock could cross over to the Prime Universe again if the universes are parallel. Mirror Mirror established this could take place if a Starship engines emulated the effects of an ion storm during transport.

You reinvented time travel (although you never actually established this in the movie); but you didn’t reinvent universe travel.

90. Devon - August 21, 2010

#87 – “Star Trek is intelligent science fiction.”

No it isn’t. Never has been, never will be. This is a fan made description.

“When you saw ads touting, “This is not your father’s Star Trek” ”

Talk to the marketing department.

“Did this new movie fit with those shows? Not really”

Funny, none of your examples mentioned any of the other Trek films, just a few select episodes.

“That’s because the conversation on the bridge on this issue goes by so fast, that it’s easy to miss”

Then is that not a case of paying attention?

“2. Destroying Vulcan. Stop all the talk about preserving canon. I mean I don’t care if they built the Enterprise in Iowa. But I do care if they destroyed one of the founding members of the Federation”

What you’re saying is that you want to live in a fantasy where everything is safe and secure.

“That’s not preserving canon. That’s taking a sledge hammer and smashing it.”

It is preserving canon, because the canon in which the events you’ve known for 40 years are still in tact. This is another timeline, the only canon that matters here is this timelines.

“. Kirk is a young punk. Think about it my fellow Trekkers. Would you want to follow cadet Kirk as a member of the Enterprise? He was an over-sexed up punk. ”

Over-sexed? You can do better than that can’t you?

“He doesn’t represent the thoughtful Kirk that we saw in the end of “Arena” “Balance of Terror” etc.”

Right, basically you’re saying there are extremely limited examples of the Kirk that you’ve fantasized.

91. Vultan - August 21, 2010

#87

Wow, and I thought I was hard on you. Get a load of this Devon guy!

92. John - August 21, 2010

For those complaining about the quick promotions…I suggest you take another look at the DS9 episode “Valiant”

93. Jack - August 21, 2010

3. Agreed about wanting a fresh take on the Klingons, despite the movie’s connections to the TOS timeline — there’ve been a bunch of different versions of Klingons anyway over the years… and I like what the Trek 09 team did visually with the Romulans and with the Klingons in the deleted scene.

Sorry Captain Neil (TNG criticism ahead), but post TNG depiction of the Klingons became pretty static and one-note. I like the idea of many cultures not quite united within a forced melting pot with a bit of Soviet Union/East German-style big brother-style government thrown in. It’s late and I’m using a lot of dashes…

94. Weerd1 - August 21, 2010

@87 Let me say, the hardest thing for me to get over before I allowed myself as a Trekker to fall head over heels in love with this movie was the destruction of Vulcan. What I eventually had to do was compare this tale to all the other bits of time travel we had seen, and see how the tellers were going to differentiate this tale from others. There has to be some moment, some huge thing which says “we are NOT going to hit the reset button, and what happens here is for keeps.” Kill a character. However, killing a character defeats the purpose of starting “Star Trek” over with the original folks. Kill a secondary character? Nope, then you lose your gravitas. It has to be something that means a lot to Trek, and is a clear sign that we will not suffer from the prequel curse of knowing what’s coming, but still allow enough similarity to classic Trek to keep it… well, Trek.

Vulcan must die. There’s the proper emotional investment from fans old and new, and a clear sign we are not going to hit the reset button, AND it allows our beloved crew to stay together. From a dramatic perspective, it’s a brave and logical choice.

Yeah, I had to really contemplate whether or not I wanted to invest in a Trek universe with no Vulcan… but I am willing to bet, regardless of the planet being there or not, I am willing to be the important VULCANS we need for the future made it!

Once reconciled, I knew what my sole complaint was; rather than Delta Vega, the ice planet should have been Psi 2000. Closer to Federation space, established as a frozen world, and after getting out of the waterworks, Scotty could have made a comment about never having taken a shower with his clothes on before…

95. Jim Nightshade - August 21, 2010

Great comment mr orci prime–why is trek like no other? Why do we all care so much? star wars may be similar but not in the same league to me—Two words,one man–in a nutshell Gene Roddenberry—He,and then Majel n rod, promoted Trek–as much more than a scifi franchise–Because they treated their audience as intelligent,because they also cared bout trek-because of its optimism,heroism,fun,action n humor,and its hope for the future, we all also cared and still do-iconic heros–and how their family helped people n planets and explored boldly going where no one has gone before-an unapologetic romantic ideal for the future–at a time the human race does not even know if it can survive its religious and political hatreds dividing us all instead of delighting in our differences n tolerate we so far do the oppsite-Trek is all this and more–bob orci knows we care like no other franchise–he accepts his awesome responsability and he is also humbled by it—as senior prime spock advised nuspock–go with your feelings mr orci-i know you will not fail us! and i cannot wait for part two–You have emotionally compromised us sir–trek lives–Thank you for keepin the faith–

96. THX-1228 - August 21, 2010

aww man trekmovie teamed up with creation, please say it isnt so.
Anthony surely you know Creation is the least fan friendly of all the convention promoters out there.

There are dozens of other promoters you could team up with.

97. Green-Blooded-Bastard - August 21, 2010

I watched ST ’09 again tonight. I so love that picture… It’s a great mix of old and new, it’s an absolutely perfect movie. Say what you want about its “issues” I could care less. I don’t even care who or what the next one is about, I just want to see it (minus a little lens flare).

And I certainly would not want to write a Trek film. Bearing the weight of responsibility to so many people to make it just right would be too much. There are so many things to consider… Canon, fans, continuity, the general viewing audience, share holders and such…No thanks. I couldn’t do it justice. There are folks that get paid to do it far better than I ever could. No way, no thanks.

I could, however, write a Star Wars film ;)

98. Buzz Cagney - August 22, 2010

#73 I know what you mean, Bob.
I became involved as a Committee member in a Fan Club for a professional sporting club. As I became privy to news and stories that i wouldn’t have when i was *just* a supporter, some of the magic and ‘mystique’ for the Team definitely disappeared.
They say you should never meet your heroes. I found that to be true.

But, as you suggest, you can still find pleasure in others enjoying your effort and delight in success.

99. David C. Roberson - August 22, 2010

This goes out to Basement Blogger, # 87:

“There was too much Star Wars influence. Star Trek is not Star Wars … I would never say you need the ADHD pacing of Star Wars.”

I for one don’t need slow-as-molasses pacing to understand a film. I don’t think there was anything, anything wrong with the pacing of Trek ’09. It was just what the doctor ordered. No offense intended, but the last thing I want to see is characters sitting around on the bridge spouting technobabble intertwined with each individual member of the bridge crew chiming in with the moral and philosophical implications of each proposed action.

“Star Trek is intelligent science fiction.”

Sometimes. Other times it became no more than a rather obvious morality play that bashed the audience over the head with the sledge hammer of humanist self-righteousness. And again, other times it was just down-right silly and stuffed to the brim with ooey-gooey cheese. Be honest with yourself on this one.

“ One (Star Wars) is fantasy, Star Trek is not.”

Hmmm. Well, let’s see… Wikipedia describes Fantasy:
Fantasy is a genre that uses magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary element of plot, theme, and/or setting.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but by this definition, Star Wars IS NOT FANTASY. Especially since the force was explained in the new trilogy… You could possibly make a case for Obi Wan coming back as a ghost, but really, science will tell you that energy never dies. So one could make the claim that those who were strong with the force, were able to control themselves after shedding their mortal coil. And we’ve certainly seen THAT before in Star Trek, haven’t we?

“Think about the great and smart episodes, “The City on the Edge of Forever” “Arena” “The Doomsday Machine” Did this new movie fit with those shows? Not really.”

Uh, “The City on the Edge of Forever” was –not- smart. As much as I love it for the emotional impact, the idea that Edith Keeler’s survival would make the U.S. join WWII too late is as thin as Jim Kirk getting promoted to Captain in Trek ’09. From a soup kitchen cutie to influencing the highest office in the land? That’s some Cinderella story! “Arena” was a meat and potatoes morality play. There was nothing substantial in terms of writing technique, nothing subtle, just sheer unadulterated “do unto others” story. Come on! And “The Doomsday Machine”!? It was a giant blunt that ate ships!

“The first “Star Wars” was fun but more like Flash Gordon. The series had science fiction writers: Sturgeon, Ellison, Spinarad, etc.”

And Star Trek wasn’t like Flash Gordon with ray guns and Kirk prancing about kissing scantily-clad women after leaving his giant starship?

“ And you saw the problem when a number of fans didn’t get that Abrams created a parallel universe. That’s because the conversation on the bridge on this issue goes by so fast, that it’s easy to miss. Of course, a lot of this could have been corrected if the actors literally slowed down or maybe do a Data like graphic done in TNG “Parallels.””

By God, you’re right! We should have DUMBED DOWN THE SCENE FOR THE AUDIENCE! They are rather stupid…

“DON’T DUMB DOWN THE AUDIENCE. RESPECT THEIR INTELLIGENCE.”

Oh… wait. Uh… I’m confused. Which one do you want again?

“Destroying Vulcan. Stop all the talk about preserving canon.”

Uh. Okay:-)

“But I do care if they destroyed one of the founding members of the Federation. That’s not preserving canon. That’s taking a sledge hammer and smashing it.”

I thought we weren’t talking about preserving canon anymore… MAKE UP YOUR MIND! And it’s not smashing canon. This is officially a different canon. Weren’t you paying attention? Maybe you need Data to make a chart…

“Furthermore, it was not needed. You could have rebooted the movie without destroying Vulcan. And by the way, by doing so they’ve weakened the Federation. The pig guy Tellarites are going to protect us from the Klingons? I smell bacon.”

You know what else wasn’t needed? A new Star Trek movie. Oh, and they didn’t NEED to kill Colonel Blake off in M*A*S*H*. And they didn’t NEED to kill Jonathan Kent… Nor did they need to NEED to destroy the Enteprise in Star Trek III. But all of these things provided interesting places for the characters to go emotionally. And I won’t address the “weakened the Federation” comment because … well, I just don’t see it as any kind of intelligent, viable argument. It’s not like they had the Federation blow up Vulcan. Pfft.

“Kirk is a young punk. Think about it my fellow Trekkers. Would you want to follow cadet Kirk as a member of the Enterprise? He was an over-sexed up punk. He doesn’t represent the thoughtful Kirk that we saw in the end of “Arena” “Balance of Terror” etc.”

In TOS, he was an older punk. More thoughtful, perhaps, but let’s get down to brass tacks. This is a man who constantly disobeyed the Prime Directive, ignored orders from his superiors to follow his own opinion of what the right thing to do was, had sex with MULTIPLE women… and by the way, NuKirk offers to let Nero live. Sound familiar? Ahem! Ahem! “ARENA”! Sounds fairly thoughtful to me…

100. Phaser Guy - August 22, 2010

TOS was a fun filled adventure that had a little bit of morality in a story. It didn’t have much science at all. Kirk never explained what his phaser did, and Scotty never explained how an engine worked. They just did it. The new movie really captured that.

101. boborci - August 22, 2010

94. Weerd1 – August 21, 2010

Well said! Thank you for the open mind and the good analysis. Right on the mark.

102. boborci - August 22, 2010

97. Green-Blooded-Bastard – August 21, 2010

Right? Serving Trek is tough!

103. boborci - August 22, 2010

98. Same answer. Tough to get behind the curtain a little. Not that any of us are complaining, Right?

104. David C. Roberson - August 22, 2010

#101 And I would give my right eye to be in your position. You sir, are living my dream.

105. Buzz Cagney - August 22, 2010

#102 No complaints from me, Bob!
But I still shudder at the thought of the pressure on your shoulders.
I just hope the fact that so many people are really rooting for you helps. There is certainly no shortage of goodwill being sent out to you and your colleagues.

106. S. John Ross - August 22, 2010

#21: “I think so many people are against Khan because they simply can’t appreciate the endless dramatic and creative opportunities a new timeline opens up for the character.”

Some of us are against Khan because we _can_ appreciate the endless dramatic and creative opportunities a new timeline opens up for the character … and we feel such potential might be best reserved for a later creative team.

107. Buzz Cagney - August 22, 2010

I’m just happy when I see Khan spelt correctly!

108. TheProblematique - August 22, 2010

HA! Yes, the majority of people against S/U, thank God. I really hope they listen to us.
Although, as a woman who can’t understand where they pulled it from in TOS (seriously, hints of WHAT? Besides the one scene that isn’t even remotely basis for a relationship) I’m rather annoyed that the majority of people who liked it were women… this is not helping us go against stereotypes *grumble*

109. Buzz Cagney - August 22, 2010

If the women want to have a bone chucked in their direction who are we to complain, right? ;-)

110. Jeff O'Connor - August 22, 2010

@107:

My girlfriend has been fighting those stereotypes all her life and I get to hear all these crazy tales of men treating her so one-dimensionally. It’s so aggravating. You have my condolences, which are all I can usually offer her.

@Bob:

Must be amusing watching the number of comments explode every time you get involved in an article!

111. Disinvited - August 22, 2010

#99.

Science is how we come to know what’s nature. Unless you are privy to some papers that remain unpublished, The Force and everything about it as described in the Lucas’ movies is outside of what is known about nature and therefore by definition, is supernatural.

Before you dismiss the CoteoF’s intelligence out of hand, I recommend you read up on a little thing known as “The Butterfly Effect” in chaos theory. And, yes, I see it as even applying to a social butterfly. But I digress, what your objection really appears to be is that you don’t believe Mother Theresa was a real person.

And The Doomsday Machine ate planets long before there was a Deathstar. Spaceships gave it indigestion.

And strictly speaking ARENA did not adhere to the morality play template as while Kirk reaped what he sowed, the Gorn did not. In a morality “Do unto Others” play, the Gorn protagonist having not seen the error of his ways would have suffered the fate that he would have delivered to his opponent. Not by Kirk’s hand, but usually some accident standing in for the just hand of fate such as the Gorm falling into his own trap while trying to still kill Kirk even after The Metrons had decided the matter was settled. I think you are forgetting how ham-fisted those things are.

NuKirk might have offered him a way to live but then nuKirk boneheadedly endangers Enterprise by wasting time (and energy) firing on Nero while Bob Orci reminds us that QM prevents Nero from returning, via that black hole consuming him, to pose any sort of further threat to nuKirk or his universe.

112. Buzz Cagney - August 22, 2010

#109 just get her some flowers and some chocolates. That normally works.

113. Trek Lady - August 22, 2010

I personally am okay with the destroying Vulcan thing….but I REALLY hope they pick up that thread in the next film, because otherwise the whole “Vulcan must die” thing becomes nothing more than a plot device. There was very little emotional impact from the destruction of Vulcan in 2009 because it went by so quickly. There was so much else going on…. we were force to *imagine* what happened to the Vulcan people and given hardly any time to do so. It would have had MUCH more impact if we had seen some scenes of …oh I don’t know…Vulcans maybe? Trying to escape… or dying… Vulcan children in their little school interative bowls being crushed by falling masonry, ships stuggling to get into the air and being dashed to the ground… etc. But there was none of that, and the death of Spock’s mother, although emotional, did not build enough tension and emotion for me to represent an entire people! The destruction of Vulcan alone could have been an entire film! Instead it was a five minute footnote.

114. Red Dead Ryan - August 22, 2010

67

“Being a fan of Star Trek is unlike being a fan of anything else.”

Especially whenever a good guy such as yourself comes to chat with us!
Always great hearing from you!

P.S

I’d like to see a Daedulus class ship in the sequel. It would be a nice tribute to Matt Jeffries original design for the original Enterprise. Also, if you plan on bringing in the Klingons for the sequel, might I suggest Anthony Pascale as a background Klingon since he has a killer goatee. And he does deserve a couple of seconds of screen time in the sequel. He’s helped put Star Trek back on the map with this great site and he deserves to be rewarded. Thanks!

115. FarStrider - August 22, 2010

@99 I love you, dude. . .All of your points are right on. . .

It’s funny to me that people forget that most TOS fans *HATED* The Next Generation when it first came out (‘that wimpy bald guy is too old to be a captain”. . . “they just sit around ‘talking’”. . .”blah blah blah” — if TNG had been on network TV and the complaining fans had had their way, the show would have been canceled after the first season!). . . people also seem to forget that as the more TNG moved away from trying to be a clone of TOS, (can we say “Naked Now” “The Child” and and that totally racist episode that ripped off “Amok Time” — I’ve blocked the name from my memory) not only did the story telling get better, but more and more people who necessarily weren’t fans of the original actually started watching. It seems to me that the lesson that the Supreme Court should take from this history is that now that they’ve tied their movies into the Star Trek mythos AND created an alternate timeline, they should move AWAY from trying to clone TOS or TNG like the .0015% of fans on sites like this, and those who go to Creation Con conventions want them to do. They should tell their own stories as well as they can, and not necessarily rehash old ones. . .if that means Vulcan imploded, Amanda Grayson is dead and there’s no “reset button”, that Spock and Uhura are in a relationship, that 25 year old Kirk is going to learn to be a Captain “on the job,” that Chekhov is a boy genius and has curly hair, the engineering section has exposed pipes and looks like a brewery, then so be it. . . if they tell good stories, the audience will grow, and Star Trek will live for another generation, and the ‘complainers’ will watch it anyway, and most will eventually forget that they once didn’t like it .

~FS

116. GarySeven - August 22, 2010

I was at the panel and had the pleasure of meeting Anthony afterwards. Like the vast majority of fans at the panel and at polls here, I do not want Khan in the sequel. Some fans talk about Khan as Kirk’s recurring nemesis, like Lex Luther is to Superman or the Joker is to Batman. I don’t think that is the way it is with Star Trek at all. Lex Luther or the Joker have been built in to Superman and Batman as their recurring opponents. Khan is not like that, he was in one episode out of 79, and there was a sequel to that one episode in Wrath of Khan. That’s it. Khan is simply not the Joker or Lex Luthor.
The Klingons, on the other hand, are indeed recurring villians in Star Trek. That analogy is correct.
Finally, I do want to say, as I have said before, that the most important thing to me, as a lifelong fan of Trek, is that the new movie have intelligent ideas and philosophies and not just be a villain/action movie with no deeper meaning. Please. Star Trek is so much more than fighting a villian. To paraphrase Kirk in Star Trek V, if Star Trek lost those things it would lose itself. Or more accurately the new team would have lost Star Trek for us. You guys are very bright–please retain the essence of Trek amidst all the hooplah. Please.

117. Weerd1 - August 22, 2010

Kirk IS a young punk in this movie… until he meets Spock Prime. From this point on he becomes the Kirk we know. Perhaps we should be a little miffed that he may gain his missing maturity and empathy through the mind meld. Though I suppose the question then becomes whether the mind meld helped Kirk because he could experience the death of Vulcan through Spock, or Kirk experienced what his life SHOULD have been through Spock. Either way, it is the meld which sets the stage for Kirk taking command of the Enterprise.

118. Holo J - August 22, 2010

Regarding a possible klingons appearance in the new movie. why not have a mix of ridges and no ridges? I think the 2 part Enterprise episodes were a very good answer to there different appearance in TOS to the Movies and beyond.

Seeing as Enterprise history is untouched in both universe the explanation still stands. It would only take a small reference to why some look different than others to please long time fans such as myself and for newbies it would simple just pass over there heads as the action unfolds.

119. Data Logan - August 22, 2010

responding to 4 Will_H,
I really didn’t mind the Spock/Uhura relationship.
There are actually a few times in TOS when there seemed to be something possible there, when Uhura would tease Spock like in The Man Trap, or they would perform music together like in Charlie X.
And, if you read Lost Years, there was a moving scene between them.
I think there might have been more do with it in TOS itself if it hadn’t been for the social implications of having an inter-racial couple on TV.
So the woman who becomes a possible love interest for Spock became Nurse Chapel instead.

120. Data Logan - August 22, 2010

I’m with 9. Buzz Cagney,
I want something new, not just the over-done choice of Klingons or Romulans as villains.

121. WhatDoesItMean - August 22, 2010

108. Aye aye!!! I find it so annoying when people generalise like that: either I’m a Spock/Uhura fan (UGH *shudder*) or I’m a slasher. Can’t a girl just want some bromantic bonding between the two epic leads without needing it to be slash? Spock and Kirk still need to become /friends/, in my opinion. The process of them getting to know each other would be very interesting to see now, since we left it off at such a wonderful place in the first movie.

And I agree with everyone who’s asked for consequences of what happened in the first movie. Not only the death of Vulcan but half the of Starfleet Academy, as well as some sort of reflection of the fact that Kirk really is /very/ young and there should be some consequences from his early promotion (maybe some senior Admirals don’t take him too seriously at first, maybe he as to prove himself beyond one act of bravery against Nero?).

Anyway, despite some nitpickings, I’m really, really looking forward to the new movie!

122. Data Logan - August 22, 2010

I’d like to see a new Engineering in the next movie. Where’s the warp core? I don’t mind that Engineering is bigger, has plenty of interesting places. And I understand that the story also didn’t really require the use of a warp core set (and didn’t have much for Scotty to do on the ship), so I understand the choice of not putting the money into creating a warp core set for the movie vice just using a standing brewery set, etc.
But if the next movie has need for more Engineering scenes (and more for Scott to do!) I hope they take the time and effort to create a great new set.

123. Data Logan - August 22, 2010

The real reason I don’t think we should have Khan in the next movie:

I think there needs to be some acknowledgement of Kirk’s inexperience in the next movie. I can think of at least 4 episodes of the original series where there are references of Kirk coming up through the ranks (Obsession, A Private Little War, Court Martial, Patterns of Force), and that doesn’t even count all the episodes where he just mentions a woman he dated, etc. I understand the need to move along the story. I support the decision to get everybody into the right position by the end of the first movie. Still, I think there should be some acknowledgement.

Then, after Kirk gets a bit more experience under his belt, we can bring out Khan in the 3rd (or4th) NuTrek movie. It can definitely be done well.

124. Data Logan - August 22, 2010

If we are to redo a villain from TOS, I think a good villain for the next movie would be Garth of Izar.
Noble, tragic figure of Shakespearean proportions. A villain that could even rival Khan if done right.
A Starfleet captain who actually came up through the ranks and has the experience to draw on.
Good foil for the new, young Captain Kirk to learn from.

125. Data Logan - August 22, 2010

I still don’t understand why no one is talking about the transwarp beaming.
This thing is huge!
The ability to use transporters over intergalactic distances is way beyond the technology of the time. This was well established in TOS episodes Assignment: Earth and The Gamesters of Triskelion, as well as TNG episodes like Bloodlines over a hundred years later.
Now that the Federation has that technology, at least 100 years before they would otherwise reasonably get it, there are bound to be major changes.
Remember when the Federation and the Klingon Empire goes to war in Errand of Mercy? If the Federation had transwarp beaming technology they could beam warheads onto military targets from light-years away. Makes short work of the Klingons.
They same would be true of almost any threat.
Even if regular shielding works against this type of beaming, you can’t keep your shields up all the time.
Certainly it would be a devastating weapons for months/years until the foe adjusted.
And what about non-military aspects. No need for that quadrotriticale to be shipped through Deep Space Station K-7 to Sherman’s Planet where it would be unnecessarily vulnerable to Klingons like Arne Darvin when you could just transport it from a planet a few solar systems over.

I attended the panel at the convention but wasn’t able to bring up this issue.

126. P Technobabble - August 22, 2010

I would think the most difficult thing about writing for Star Trek (apart from the tremendous pressure and gigantic sense of responsibility) is wondering “what’s next?” After about 40 years of Trek stories — tv, film, novels — I often wonder what is left to be told. I admit I could simply be suffering from a lack of imagination, but even within the realm of already-produced Star Trek, there were stories that seemed like a rehash, or revamp, of some other already-produced stories. TNG’s “The Naked Now” was a direct rip-off of TOS’s “The Naked TIme.” ENT’s “The Crossing” had a plotline reminiscent of TOS’s “Return To Tomorrow.” DS9′s “Trials and Tribble-ations” was another version of TOS’s “City On the Edge.” I could go on… And then many other episodes could’ve been episodes of other tv series minus all the sci-fi/Trekkian aspects — let’s take this episode of CSI: Miami and turn it into a Star Trek episode.

So where do you come up with really NEW ideas for Star Trek? The Trek09 movie did have a new idea in that it altered the Star Trek universe permanently… now THAT was never done before!
I don’t envy Bob, Alex and Damon’s task of writing another Star Trek movie. This isn’t just writing a Trek novel that may or may not count as “official” Trek lore. This is the real deal. And I would imagine there’s more pressure over the sequel than the first one, cos now they’ve got to re-please those who loved the first one, and hopefully win back those who didn’t. How do you spell “stress relief?”

127. dmduncan - August 22, 2010

@126: Hey, I think you are right, so when folks start talking about having something original, it’s kind of funny. Not that it’s impossible, but both original and sellable as a movie, I’m not so sure. There are great pieces of science fiction out there that simply won’t make good two hour movies, and many others that will only make great four or six hour movies. (This is where SyFy misses the boat on a regular basis, creating crap like Sharktopus rather than doing a Ringworld miniseries).

Still, if you have the right pieces of music playing and you close your eyes to imagine what might happen with these beloved characters, possibilities emerge.

Focusing on the criteria of originality seems to me to be the entirely wrong way to approach the sequel. If you just do what reasonably makes sense as consequences of the first film, I think half the problem solves itself, and of course different people will have different ideas about what makes sense, but the beauty of it is that they can all be valid projections.

I think it would be a mistake to go back to the episodic nature of TOS where each new story seems to take place without any reference to what happened before.

128. dmduncan - August 22, 2010

Also, I think what I loved about TOS and didn’t love about TNG was that TOS seemed so damned INSPIRED so often, while TNG just as often seemed like the product of a bunch of guys thinking too hard about what to do next.

And those two approaches are not compatible, I think. Thinking hard is more likely to produce sterile work. Personally, listening to music and just sort of staring out the window and daydreaming without intent produces some interesting stuff, stuff I wouldn’t have thought of otherwise.

129. ChristopherPike - August 22, 2010

To:- Bob Orci,

So, to recap the main issues raised at this panel…

>> “Most understood movie used alternative timeline to link back to previous canon, although only half saw new timeline as “parallel” to original prime timeline”

More needs to be done to change how general audiences (even some fans) STILL view this as a Prequel to Star Trek. The perception of a film involving a younger Kirk, Spock, McCoy and so on, was perhaps always going to win out and there’s no denying that accounts for both the successes, as well as the disappointments to some fans (like myself initially).

As if the destruction of Vulcan, Spock’s mother dying, changes to Kirk’s character and a new look Enterprise don’t say enough on the matter… a sequel is going to have to make further deviations, if it is to make it’s own mark and stand apart from the Original Series. You may to need lose a member of the cast, in a completely unexpected way to reinforce that! Or take more inspiration from alternate realities shown before in Star Trek… by allowing Spock to grow a beard or suddenly replace somebody with a member of an alien race, previous thought to be an enemy.

The least the next film can do, in my view, is to the show consequences to the Federation, particularly humanity without the steadying hand of the Vulcans, urging caution during certain crisises that arise.

>> “Most had a problem with Kirk’s rapid promotions”

You can fix that as most have already said, by explaining that away as Prime Spock putting in a good word for Kirk with Starfleet. Maybe he even provided them with historical records from his universe, to ensure they have somekind of edge over the threats they are likely to face.

>> “A majority weren’t happy with Spock/Uhura relationship, but interestingly most of those who liked it were women”

Actually that hardly bothered me at all… it’s something that has its roots in Season 1 and if anything Star Trek V made a mistake putting her with Scotty, but hey… maybe there’s still some hope for him, on the rebound! As pointed out, the Uhura/Spock thing appealed to a section of the audience, who might not have previously been interested in Star Trek.

>> “Almost unanimous agreement that Khan should not be the villain for the Star Trek sequel”

>> “Most want to see Klingons in the sequel”

Again you can’t have it all your own way. I’m not exactly thrilled by a new version of Khan but it depends how different he can be from Ricardo Montalban’s iconic, madman-out for revenge performance in Star Trek II. Look at what he was like in Space Seed, a more cunning, strategist, interested in building an empire and ruling over others.

Star Trek is synonymous with Klingons, so there’s some resignation to the fact, they have to be revisited sooner or later.

BUT I’m more on the side of Romulans than Klingons, I have to say. They are always background villains in the movies, even recently… because Nero and his band are motivated by self-interest. Not atypical, in the way we recognise Romulans, as tactians seeking to expand their empire.

My ideal film would fill in some blanks involving them. During later series of Enterprise (had it continued), we would have envitably reached the Romulan War and seen Archer’s NX-01 crew’s involvement with that, together with the founding of the Federation. With the Vulcans effectively left looking for a new homeworld and that having some destablising effect on the Galaxy, how could they not be out there, ready to take advantage of the situation… with old scores to settle against the upstart alliance set up by Humanity?

130. Trek Lady - August 22, 2010

115 “It’s funny to me that people forget that most TOS fans *HATED* The Next Generation when it first came out ”

Oh…I doubt those of us who were around then have “forgotten.” I never liked TNG. I tried to get into it several times. Couldn’t. But it had nothing to do with it being “too much like TOS.” IMO, it was NOTHING like TOS. If it was trying to “be a clone of TOS” they did a terrible job of it. I could never get into the characters. I simply did not care about any of them. Everyone was too bland and controlled. No real adventure. And a teenager who kept upstaging all the supposed intellegent adults aboard. So, at least for me, TNG did NOT capture the magic of TOS, which is why I never could take it to heart the way I did with TOS.

131. Captain McColl - August 22, 2010

@39. The first two Star Trek movies deal with Kirk actually loathing being an Admiral and trying to get command of the Enterprise back, his demotion in Star Trek IV was pretty much a favour to him.

132. N - August 22, 2010

How about a Two Episode Movie. Just somehow join them in one movie. That way you could do more in one movie. Klingon battle & backround info to start & finish with a more crew oriented mystery.puzzle. Or vice versa. Or even start the movie like in the James Bond or Indy Jones movies where they are already engaged with someone or something. Start the movie with a Klingon quarrel & then on to a different adventure.

133. Joe Sidney - August 22, 2010

I love Kayla

134. Hugh Hoyland - August 22, 2010

With the fanboy project Im working on I’m not feeling the need to mention Vulcan’s destruction , we already know it happened so its not necessary. But maybe a passing mention, if that. I just dont see it as an important PP in a follow up story, but thats just MOOC.

135. Hugh Hoyland - August 22, 2010

Cool video btw, thanks for sharing that Anthony.

136. mikeyminoz - August 22, 2010

I have always envisioned a movie about the origins/formation/creation of the Borg much like Batman Begins. What planets, cultures, star systems merged to become that particular villain. Was it a culture so dependent on technology, a totalitarian culture or an AI run amok? The movie should be like going down a river leading to a waterfall-inexorable,inevitable. Of course none of that matters since Hollywood makes movies that studios sell so fan input is futile!

137. Data Logan - August 22, 2010

about 94 Weerd1 idea:
“Once reconciled, I knew what my sole complaint was; rather than Delta Vega, the ice planet should have been Psi 2000. Closer to Federation space, established as a frozen world, and after getting out of the waterworks, Scotty could have made a comment about never having taken a shower with his clothes on before…”

this is a great idea! The reference to the shower would work great for fans of TOS Naked Time as well as TNG Naked Now and it would still be funny for those new Trek-goers that wouldn’t understand the reference. I love it when playing to the fans with an off-handed reference works so well for the new audience as well. The reference to Delta Vega was suppose to do that, but it just annoyed us that knew enough to know Delta Vega is nowhere near Vulcan.
Of course, no mater where Psi 2000 is, it is also not close enough to Vulcan to allow Spock Prime to see the destruction of Vulcan so clearly from the planet. The only planet that would meet that requirement would be Vulcan’s sister planet T’Khut (except it is not habitable, of course, and certainly not a frozen world).

And speaking of T’Khut, I guess now that Vulcan is gone T’Khut will be thrown out of it’s orbit, etc.

138. Data Logan - August 22, 2010

136. mikeyminoz:
have you read the Destiny book series?
It goes into great detail about the Borg origins, etc

139. Data Logan - August 22, 2010

I love the thought that Spock Prime helped to get Kirk promoted to Enterprise captain. (He was certainly interested enough to attend the ceremony.)

It interest me that Spock Prime seems to have resolved himself to not only staying within this new alternate universe, but to actively trying to help out. Leading Vulcans to a new planet, ensuring NuSpock stays in Starfleet and on Enterprise, and possibly helping get Kirk his captain position.

This is a man that probably could return to his time and timeline (with resources like The Guardian of Forever, or others), but has chosen to stay.
I think certainly he wants to try and put right the things that his actions inadvertently caused.
But maybe he also stayed for another, dare I say more emotional, reason. The ability to relive his younger days, if at some distance.

140. Data Logan - August 22, 2010

to continue issue of transwarp beaming from 125:

What I would ideally like to see done with transwarp beaming in this new universe: Nothing.
Just drop it like it never happened.
This would change the dynamic of the universe too much. Remember the talk above about the destruction of Vulcan weakening the Federation? Well, transwarp beaming technology makes the Federation too strong.
And Spock Prime should know this. In his efforts to correct the timeline, I think it would make sense for him to talk again with Scott and Kirk and ask them to not reveal the technique. It’s too powerful and too soon. Probably even talk to his younger self so that he won’t reveal what he knows about the technique based on its use during the movie, which he was tangentially aware of.

141. Phaser Guy - August 22, 2010

I don’t mind they destroyed Vulcan. You had to do something big. I liked the idea a lot.

142. chris laroche - August 22, 2010

I Thought the new movie was great and look forword to a new movie as long the same writers comeback and jj directs.

143. Greg2600 - August 22, 2010

I really didn’t care what they did with the characters or planets or plot or whatever. Once they went to the alternate timeline and established that, the direct connection to the original Trek cannon was eliminated for me. This is now a completely new venture, which IMO shouldn’t be given free passes because it’s called Star Trek and uses the old characters. I personally would have rather seen them stay with the canon and explored the earlier years of the TOS characters as such. I don’t have a problem with the direction they’ve taken, because I can sit there and watch it and say to myself, this is not the old Trek story. Now, what bothers me are people wanting them to redo old stories and reconnect all the things that happened before. I say no, don’t do anything that came before. Ignore it all! That way, you can’t be bashed for not following canon, because you’ve already started on a new path. Obviously the third option, which they didn’t do, would have been horrible. If they had changed the Trek history, in a way that “erased” the old canon, I would have been very upset.

144. Vultan - August 22, 2010

THIS JUST IN…

I’ve come to the realization that this new universe isn’t the parallel or quatum mechanics hooey that Mr. Orci has described. It’s obviously a brand spanking new universe—and a Bizarro Universe at that—a place where Delta Vega is a close neighbor to the vacant lot formerly known as Vulcan; where warp cores are built in St. Louis, Milwaukee and Golden, Colorado; where promotions are given out like hankies at showings of “Eat, Pray, Love”; and where cats are required to wear long pants.

Okay, I made up that last one. But who’s to say it isn’t true? The writers should have fun with this new universe. Make it as bizarre as possible! Let’s see James T. Kirk Cameron fighting Gorn Elvis on a planet made of Jell-O; Spock and Uhura getting hitched in New Las Vegas on Mars, then holding a rip-snorting reception on the Planet Blotto; and a haggard, blue-faced McCoy lecturing on street corners about the dangers of Andorian mono.

Forget about “seeing what’s out there.”
Let’s have some fun… dude.

145. Green-Blooded-Bastard - August 22, 2010

102. boborci – August 22, 2010

I detect a hint of sarcasm there good sir… But I honestly wouldn’t want that job. It’s the kind of thing in that business that can make you a revered god or a hated pariah. The rewards I’m sure are great if you do a good job, and if not, you end up writing the fake stories for the Dear Penthouse “guess what happened to me at work today” columns for the rest of your days.

It’s not as easy as some would think it is.

146. Disinvited - August 22, 2010

#125.

Hey reread 111.

#115. & 130.

It’s funny to me that fans keep forgetting that from the first film on there was a faction of ToS purists that despised the movie(s) because “STAR TREK was created and always meant to be a TV series.”

And believe it or don’t there are even fans that only like the comics, or the novels and have never seen nor have any desire to see STAR TREK on the big or little screen because Hollywood can never match the sights, sounds, and images created by their own imaginations from said novels.

#140.

Once the genii has been let out of the bottle it is going to take something with a lot more wile to get it credibly back in. I think you are forgetting that Scotty used the transporter to beam Spock and Kirk from vicinity of Saturn to the Narada parked in Earth orbit which is something conventional transporters can’t do. Ergo, after using transwarp beaming to rescue Pike and ultimately give Spock access to a ship that helped save the day, it’s going to be a huge gorilla in the room Kludge to suddenly have everybody clam up about it. Not to mention, maybe everyone on board Enterpise doesn’t know exactly how it was achieved but you can be darn sure they know a transporter record was broken and once it becomes generally known that something CAN be done others are liable to keep plugging at it until they figure out how. Think of it in terms of a hacker approach. I mean, didn’t Prime Scott, himself, get the notion to keep plugging at that which he abandoned in his youth from his encounter with Gary 7?

It would probably be better to use the opportunity to reflect on how the U.S. thought they were the cats pajamas coming out of WWII as the only nuclear nation only to have that be extremely short-lived. In fact, I think I would relish having the Gary 7 backing planet come out of hiding to disavow the Federation of any such notion.

147. S. John Ross - August 22, 2010

#126: ““what’s next?” After about 40 years of Trek stories — tv, film, novels — I often wonder what is left to be told.”

The existing body of work has barely scratched the surface of a scratch on the surface of a scratch on the surface. Star Trek, in terms of story potential, has barely begun to realize its potential.

“I admit I could simply be suffering from a lack of imagination, but even within the realm of already-produced Star Trek, there were stories that seemed like a rehash, or revamp, of some other already-produced stories.”

That’s the fault of the writers, producers and directors … and the limits imposed on their work by the nature of the business many of the works are produced in. It’s no fault of the show or the show’s concepts or setting.

Star Trek contains the whole world and countless others. It’s no more devoid of story potential, therefore, than the whole world multiplied by something that isn’t infinity, but which could kick infinity’s butt in a bar fight.

148. S. John Ross - August 22, 2010

#146: “And believe it or don’t there are even fans that only like the comics, or the novels and have never seen nor have any desire to see STAR TREK on the big or little screen because Hollywood can never match the sights, sounds, and images created by their own imaginations from said novels.”

I’ve always adored that magazine advertisement that INFOCOM (creator of amazing all-text adventure games) ran in the 1980s. Picture of a brain in cross-section and, in huge letters: WE STICK OUR GRAPHICS WHERE THE SUN DON’T SHINE.

Or the old joke about why radio drama is superior to TV: the picture is so much clearer.

149. Weerd1 - August 22, 2010

@139 I think Spock came to the new universe as a broken man. He had failed to reunite Vulcan and Romulus; Failed to get the Romulans to see the threat of the Hobus star; failed to get Vulcan to really do anything about the impending destruction of Romulus; failed then even to stop the destruction himself. He’d been captured by a man who was once his friend and now was driven mad with rage and grief, and then watched (be it physically or in abstract) his homeworld die. He tried one last act of redemption: fixing the main thing in this new version of events his actions had defiled, the life of James T. Kirk. When he IS able to do that, and looks at the new timeline unfolding around him, he realizes that he has both a responsibility and an opportunity to do things for this universe no one would need him for in the Prime universe.

He knows it’s on its own path, but that similarities will exist in the new universe’s future to that of the Prime. Here, he can again make a difference, and perhaps make up for the damage he feels he caused. As the timeline is refreshed in this new universe, so is Spock’s sense of purpose, ergo, he stays.

150. Gary H. - August 22, 2010

Anthony,

I was fortunate enough to attend this panel, and, as I mentioned to you the next day — it was the best part of the convention for me (other than Shatner and Nimoy on stage together). Great panelists, wonderful vibe in the room and great particpation from the audience. I don’t know if it comes off as well on the video, but even the criticisms of the last movie were, for the most part, meant with great respect for the new creative team and love for the revival of the franchise. I think almost everyone is quite pleased that Trek is back and reaching a broader audience than ever before.

boborci – on a side note, thanks for treating this community with so much respect and taking the time to engage in an ongoing dialogue. Everyone has an opinion — many quite strongly held. I appreciate your willingness to discuss the big sutff and the trivial with all of us, and for keeping your sense of humor about it all. In my 38 years as a Trek fan — I do not recall this level of fan interaction and dialogue with the creative team. Really impressive to see and much appreciated.

151. Basement Blogger - August 22, 2010

@88 Vultan, @ 90 Devon, @ 99 David

Devon and David thank you for your kind words. Before I respond to your posts, let me reiterate that I liked Trek “09. It’s just that I didn’t think of it as the greatest Trek made or that it was even better than my favorite film “Casablanca.” Sorry. And thank you Vultan for praying for me. There will be a day that I will worship Star Trek ’09. Hey, I’ve already watched it a bunch of times.

@ 88 Vultan- Thank you for your joke about NOKIA product placement. It leads me to a nitpick. How does Bad Robot know that NOKIA will exist in the twenty third century? I mean look at Pan Am in Kubrick’s “2001, A Space Odyssey.” They were supposed to take us to the space station and they didn’t make it past 1991 because they went belly up. : )

I. @90 Devon-

A. You responded to my comment “Star Trek is intelligent science fiction” with this:

“No it isn’t. Never has been, never will be. This is a fan made description.”

So those NASA scientists who are fans liked the show, enjoyed it for Uhura, Rand’s mini-skirts or were trying to figure what kept up android Andrea’s skimmpy costume? Okay, that’s a bad example. Let’s start with the begining, the prologue. It calls us to explore the stars and discover new worlds. Isn’t that what those smart guys in NASA are doing?

What about the scientific concepts in the show? As you well know, some of these new civilizations and worlds are light years away. We can’t get there with current types of propulsion. So Star Trek used warp drive, a bending of the space-time. Then there’s medical scanning in the show, the use of the communicator, that have current counterparts in reality. And there is physicist Michio Kaku thinking that a transporter might be possible. I think Kaku’s intelligent, don’t you?

What about some of the episodes? First, let me say that if a show makes me think, I would consider that being intelligent. See, I put thinking with intelligence. I also argue that use of metaphor is also sign of intelligence. @ 99 David, this goes to you also.

1. “City on the Edge of Foreever” Kirk’s sacrifice made me think about giving up happiness for the greater good. I thought about the concept of time travel. Can I change my destiny by going back in time? (the grandfather paradox)

Oh and by the way, @ 99 David, Edith Keeler coming from a soup kitchen to become a powerful influence on the President is not far fetched. In this real world, there was a guy named Barack Obama who was a community organizer. A few short years later, he became President of the United States.

2. “Arena” Kirk first spares the Gorn at the end. Ah, the advanced trait of mercy. Would Arnold Schwarzenegger do that? No. You would get a catchphrase and a violent act of revenge. Kirk also muses that maybe the Federation was wrong. Wow. That ‘s like a hero in a movie saying maybe my country, the USA, was wrong.

3. “The Doomsday Machine” Listen up David @ 99. First, the Doomsday Machine was not just a blunt that ate ships. It destroyed worlds. But let’s get to the intelligence of this episode. The Doomsday Machine was a weapon of war. Unleashed by an advanced society, it makes me think whether it destroyed them. Was such an ultimate weapon needed to be unleashed? Think about the metaphor with history. The arms race before World War was a leading cause of the war. What about nuclear weapons, our doomsday machine? Unleashing them would destroy us.

4. I’m going to go over a bunch of TOS episodes quickly here, some good, some not. Forgive me for not going over TNG, Voyager, DS9 or Enterprise episodes. I don’t want to spend all day doing it and then get accused by a troller to get a life.

“Thje Devil in the Dark” Concept: Tolerance
” Let that be your last batlefield” Concept: Racial prejudice
“A Taste of Armageddon” Concept: The cost and horror of war
“A Private Little War: Concept: The Cold War and the Viet Nam War
“The Omega Glory” Concept: The Cold War and the Viet Nam War
“Mirror Mirror” Concept: Parallel Universes

Oh, you said I ddin’t talk about the movies, well okay. Here it is.

Star Trek II Concept: Revenge. Ethical use of technology, the Genesis
Device
Star Trek IV Concept : Ecology. Save the whales, save the planet.
Star Trek: First Contact: Concept: Time Travel. Picard must deal with his emotions of revenge. Indviduality vs. the Borg need for perfection.

B. I don’t fantasize about Kirk. I do fantasize about Seven of Nine, Leeta of DS9, Dr. Beverly Crusher, Android Andrea, Yeoman Tonia Barrows, and Slave girl Drusilla.

II. @99 David

A. You made a comment, “Star Wars IS NOT FANTASY.” You then make an argument there is some scientific basis for some of the things in Star Wars like the Force.

If true, I will try an experiment. Okay, I will now try to use the Force by placing a book over my head and try to levitate it. Please wait…. Ouch. Wow, “Constitutional Law” by John Nowak hurts. Let me try an apple…. It hit my head again. Maybe that Newton guy had something there.

I need to find a worm living in an asteroid to try to see if I can survive without a spacesuit while being in the mouth of the worm. All right, that’s too hard. Let me try propelling myself six feet while doing a back flip with the Force. Wait… sorry, I can’t do it.

I hope I don’t sound like Han Solo here but I’m not sure this Force stuff is real. Unlike Han, I do believe life does create energy but the Force might require some more study.

B. DAMN IT DAVID, I’M A BLOGGER NOT A PHYSICIST.

Your next agurment is that when I suggested more dialogue during the Spock Prime-Kirk meeting or maybe a Data like computer graphic explanation to help the audience would be treating the audience as dumb.

I rasied the point because there was confusion seen in the panel above. And silly me, I thought if you went back in time you would pollute the time line, i.e. change it. The idea of creating an alternate reality didn’t occur to me at first. Frankly, I’m not sure which view of time travel is correct. I will link the Bob Orci interview which he describes the parallel universe concept below. If every Trekker read the interview and knew about this concept then everyone would have gotten it. Unfortunately, not everyone did. I had to research it. So when Uhura threw out “alternate reality” with her great oral sensitivity, I initially thought change in timeline. That’s because, “DAMN IT DAVID, I’M A BLOGGER NOT A PHYSICIST.” And judging what happend during the panel a lot of Trekkers got confused about that too.

When Data explained it in “Parallels” it worked perfectly. Now, the audience understood what was happening to Worf. It set up the wild scene where you had thousands of Enterprises. And Data’s explanation only took a few minutes. The idea of parallel universes is a mind boggling concept. There’s nothing wrong with letting the audience breathe and absorbe the concept. That’s not treating the audience like dummies. We’re all not physicists.

When I talk about treating the audience with intelligence, I’m saying we don’t need to pounded in our seats like “G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra.” with unrelenting non-stop action. Chris Nolan had characters explain a bunch of concepts in “Inception.” yet he didn’t dumb us down, I sat in the theater thinking about every level of dream and even the meaning of reality. That’s what I mean. It’s okay for the audience to sit and consider a scientic concept.

C. On Preserving Canon and the Destruction of Vulcan- Yes, I see that Spock-Prime’s timeline still exists. First let’s call it the Roddenberry Timeline and Trek “09 as Abrams Timeline..

But before the movie came out , Bad Robot was telling everyone that they would preserve canon. Well, that was confusing because of the alternate universe theories. So when people complained about the Enterprise being built in Iowa, they confused that with the Roddenberry Timeline.

Yes, Abrams Timeline is a new canon. So my point, Bad Robot can do anything different from the Roddenberry Timeline. Yuo can take old canon and smash it to bits. Kill Amanda. Done. Destroy Vulcan. Done. Make Jean Luc Picard the first male sychronized swimmer. Maybe.

There’s nothing that requires the destruction of Vulcan. I understand it as saying you can’t predict this new Abrams Timeline. But was there a law that Vulcan must be destroyed to reboot the franchise? No. And I don’t know about you, but I liked Vulcan and Vulcans in particular. So, I don’t have to like the destruction of Vulcan to appreciate Star Trek.

D. On Kirk Being a Ladies’ Man- I agree in the series, when an opportunity arose in TOS, Kirk got laid. A lot. I’m trying to think if TOS Kirk threw around the one liners that Trek ’09 Kirk threw around. “Hey Ladies.” I’m not sure he used that one. Of course, the whole point of bedding down half the female cadet class was to show that Kirk was a ladies’ man. And it was funnly parody. Just like when they had to kill Engineer Olson because he wore a red shirt or red space suit. I laughed. Or when Scotty screamed, “I’m giving her all I got.” More funny parody. But wait, this isn’t Galaxy Quest 2, is it?

By the way, I used the line “Hey Ladies” in a bar once and got shot down. I hope the writers come up with some better “come on” lines that we can use. Yes, I do go out and have a life. And Shat, I have kissed a girl.

E. On The Maturing of Kirk- Here’s where we agree. It was good to see Trek ’09 Kirk off to assist Nero. That was the thoughtful Kirk. Interesting to see Spock question the logic, probably because he was seething from within for the death of his mother.

As promised here’s the link to the interview from this site on Bob Orci’s view of time travel in the Abrams Timeline..

http://trekmovie.com/2008/12/11/bob-orci-explains-how-the-new-star-trek-movie-fits-with-trek-canon-and-real-science/

152. Col.Tigh - August 22, 2010

cool footage!

They should bring in a more darker Harry Mudd for the villian and I agree about having Archer, t’pol and t’pau cameos…

153. S. John Ross - August 22, 2010

#151: “But wait, this isn’t Galaxy Quest 2, is it?”

In many ways, it felt more like Galaxy Quest 3, if you know what I’m saying :)

154. Disinvited - August 23, 2010

#151. “How does Bad Robot know that NOKIA will exist in the twenty third century? I mean look at Pan Am in Kubrick’s “2001, A Space Odyssey.” They were supposed to take us to the space station and they didn’t make it past 1991 because they went belly up. : )”

I wouldn’t count out a possible brand reboot of Pan Am – especially with the U.S, shuttle program winding down with no replacement. If the private sector actually does rise to the occasion, I think we can count on some space station or moon delivery service somewhere reactivating that brand name.

155. Vernon Wilmer - August 23, 2010

Wow… what a topic. Thanks for the video John, Thanks Anthony for having me on, and thanks Larry & Mary for a fun debate. And thanks everyone for not boo-ing me!

156. Patrice - August 23, 2010

Female-Original series fanatic for over 30+ years.
I understand that this is a new reality that does not and should NOT mirror the timeline that we are all familiar with.
Trek XI was different and refreshing. It breathed new life into the series as well as brought the attention of a new audience into a series that was slowly dying…(the tv shows were all cancelled and there were no more movies in store.)
Frankly, IMO fans should be grateful that JJ brought new life and reason for the studios to continue with Trek.
A new generation of fans and (yes, fellas) women were tapped into. Spock and Uhura was a bit of a surprise but ultimately was kind of cool.
It worked for me in this parallel world and yes, it pushed the envelope as it should. (different time- different world) This isn’t the old Trek.

I enjoyed Trek XI and I hope the grand jury keeps with their original intention and plan. Its a formula that works. The proof was in the box office receipts.

157. MegaBearsFan - August 23, 2010

I just want to point out that around 13 minutes into the movie, Vernon argues that the movie violates cannon and “Televixen” argues that these are the same characters as before. Except she’s wrong. They are NOT the same characters as before. Especially Kirk. In fact, even Spock Prime (Leonard Nimoy) makes a statement that should stand out as proof positive that new Kirk is not the same as old Kirk. When Kirk meets Spock Prime in the cave, he asks, “Where you come from, did I know my father.” And Spock replies, “Yes, you often spoke of him as your reason for joining Starfleet.”

Well, in the new movie, in the new timeline, Kirk doesn’t have a father. His father dies when he is born. So Kirk’s childhood is going to be fundamentally different than it originally was. Is he still getting the same kind of paternal guidance? Is his mom giving him and his brother the same kind of love and affection now that she’s a widdow? Would his mom now be opposed to him joining Starfleet? Is his mom still even alive? When you make a change to a character as profound as taking away his father, then you have fundamentally changed that character. His beliefs should be different. His motivations should be different. His sense of family and companionship should be different.

Similarly, in the new movie, Spock lost his mother and is now a member of an endangered species. He now no longer has his mother trying to preserve the crumbling relationship between Spock and his father. And maybe that preservation is no longer needed, since her death may have been a catalyst to bring them together. And in the new timeline, when he eventually dies saving the Enterprise from Khan, and is resurrected, his mother, Amanda, is no longer going to be there to re-educate him in the human way of life. Therefore, Spock is a totally different character.

Thus, NO THESE ARE NOT THE SAME CHARACTERS! They may act like they are, but they are not!

158. Captain Joe - August 23, 2010

I would point out that Kirk while he is a cadet probably has the rank of lieutenant. As evidence of this, notice how at times Uhura is referred to as “cadet” and at other times “lieutenant”. So, the rank jump while improbable isn’t quite as unlikely or bad as people think. I’m quite certain if Kirk hadn’t been on academic suspension and grounded, he would have been a lieutenant.

159. MegaBearsFan - August 23, 2010

Speaking of proposals for a villain for Star Trek (2012), and going with the proposal of “Renegade Vulcans”, perhaps this might be an opportunity to actually do a good job with the Sybok character (Spock’s half brother). He could be the leader of a renegade group of Vulcans who are all emotionally compromised by the destruction of Vulcan (but hopefully not looking for God…). It could work!

160. NuFan - August 23, 2010

Sometimes I feel hopelessly lost and confused reading these comments. So much obscure trivia in them. So thank you to J.J. and Bob and team for creating something of a new beginning for people like me to get in on Star Trek!

161. FarStrider - August 23, 2010

@157 You acknowledge that they are different characters and the timeline is different, but then you say this: “And in the new timeline, when he (Spock) eventually dies saving the Enterprise from Khan, and is resurrected, his mother, Amanda, is no longer going to be there to re-educate him in the human way of life. Therefore, Spock is a totally different character.”

They may not even MEET Khan. . . or if they do meet Khan, things may go differently, Khan may become an ally. . . Kirk might not meet Carol Marcus. . . there may not be a Genesis Project. . .all sorts of things could change. . . Nothing that happened in the Prime timeline HAS to happen in this one. . . and that is the genius of the reboot. . . by the way, Spock changed way before his mother died. . .for one thing, he wasn’t out in space with Pike aboard the Enterprise for 11 years before Kirk took over, because the Enterprise was built late in this timeline. So from at least the Academy on, his experiences are totally different from Spock Prime.

@158 When you look at Kirk’s rank on screen during the Skydive scene, it calls him Lt. Kirk (not cadet Kirk or Ensign Kirk). . . I would say that both Kirk and Uhura are graduate students at the Academy, which is why they are not graduating with the rank of “Ensign”. . . we know that Kirk is 22 (and given that he’s been tested and is off the charts, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that he took said test in college). . . when when see him in the bar, and Uhura is at least 21 (she has to be in order to buy all those drinks) he’s 25 at the end of the movie, and she’s at least 24. . .

@160 Good point, NuFan. . . it’s a new universe, and none of that obscure trivia really matters anymore. . .

~FS

162. S. John Ross - August 23, 2010

#160: “Sometimes I feel hopelessly lost and confused reading these comments. So much obscure trivia in them. So thank you to J.J. and Bob and team for creating something of a new beginning for people like me to get in on Star Trek!”

And the instant you recall any detail about the first JJ Abrams movie to someone who’s only seen the forthcoming second one, they’ll be thinking you’re spouting “obscure trivia,” too. That’s the way it works ;)

#161: “Uhura is at least 21 (she has to be in order to buy all those drinks)”

When was that drinking age established for 23rd-Century Red-Matter-Universe Iowa? I’d hope societal prudery about drink would be a _little_ more progressive by then (on the other hand, Iowa has devolved socially to the point where its ecosystem supports fratboys, so maybe you’re right …)

163. MegaBearsFan - August 23, 2010

@161: I’m sorry, I didn’t really explain myself very well there. I realize the events of Star Trek II and Star Trek III do not HAVE to happen in the new timeline. I was just using the events of those movies as an example to demonstrate how fundamentally different these characters are now, and that even IF the same events happen to them again, it is unfair/unreasonable to assume or expect that they will continue to behave the way that the did previously and that we (the long-time fans) expect them to because the context of their lives has been radically altered. Thus, they are (for all intents and purposes) DIFFERENT characters altogether, just with the same names. I hope that makes a little more sense.

Oh, and since you brought up Carol Marcus, I was REALLY hoping that she would be in the Star Trek reboot. Before the movie released, I had heard that Kirk was going to seduce a female lab tech into reprogramming the Kobyashi Maru simulation for him. And I was really hoping that the said lab tech would turn out to be Carol Marcus (even though she was more of a biologist than a programmer, but the Genesis project did seem to require that she have some expertise in computers). Aw well.

164. NuFan - August 23, 2010

162. And the instant you recall any detail about the first JJ Abrams movie to someone who’s only seen the forthcoming second one, they’ll be thinking you’re spouting “obscure trivia,” too. That’s the way it works ;)

Good point. There should be a reboot at least once per generation if not moreso. Though Hollywood seems to understand that now.

165. AJ - August 23, 2010

One ‘concern’ I have is the actual state of the Federation vs. the Klingons vs. the Romulans in the post ST09 ‘world.’

One school of thought would say that the Klingons will now become suspicious allies of the Federation because it destroyed Nero and the Narada (‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’ logic). Also, they will consider the Federation as further advanced, having destroyed what the Klingons knew to be a 24th century vessel. The Klingons will seek out Spock covertly (ST09 deleted scenes).

The next school is that the Supreme Court may want to diversify the Klingons out of being ‘honorable’ constipated rowdy frat-boy alcoholics (Bermanverse) and turn them back into nuanced dishonorable genocidal socialist killing machines (TOS), in which case they demand the Federation share what they have learned from the Narada, or risk attack (from their fleet minus 47 ships). Brink of war.

The Romulans, left out of all the fun in either case in ST09, will claim rights to this knowledge as well. They will also see the decimated Vulcan population as an immediate ally, and will provide massive aid to them. The Romulan Empire may even ask to ally itself with the Federation (instead of the Klingon Empire, as they did in TOS) to gain the higher technology the Feds allegedly have gleaned from Nero and Spock. The Romulans may honestly feel honorbound to do this, or it could just be a big deception. Take your pick.

ST2012 is best, in the end, to stay out of all of this, and focus on a good character-based story with a great villain and a message. But having this all in the background adds some realism, and adds back what we all miss from episodic Star Trek, which is a consistent living and breathing universe around it.

166. Disinvited - August 23, 2010

#148.

I think it is lost on some how ,in the age before home or personal video recording, we fans really listened to STAR TREK as recording the audio was all we had, and to actually view ST on demand we had to attend a convention.

I almost forgot how much founding Trek appealed to the blind. Thanks for reminding me.

#156.

People who want to promote the 2009 effort uber al other STAR TREK before it, keep saying things like that but I have my doubts. History has show that ST built it first fan base to noticeable numbers by attracting them through syndicated television reruns – reruns which in one form or another (Assuming the other Treks in reruns have their appeal too or else why rerun them?) have been actively running to this date. There has never been any evidence supplied that these reruns in syndication, even as I type this, have ever stopped attracting new fans to STAR TREK.

According to Richard Arnold, a former consultant to Paramount, in February of 2009 there were 25 million ST fans worldwide. Do you know how much money those fans would only have had to spend towards one ticket for 2009′s STAR TREK to realize its box office take? About fifteen dollars, the price of one IMAX viewing.

Factor in that about half those ticket buying fans loved the movie so much that they bought more tickets in repeat multiple viewings and it becomes very apparent that there simply isn’t enough room in these possible attendance statistics for these HUGE numbers of new fans to attend the 2009 movie as claimed.

167. the Quickening - August 23, 2010

124. Data Logan – August 22, 2010
If we are to redo a villain from TOS, I think a good villain for the next movie would be Garth of Izar.
Noble, tragic figure of Shakespearean proportions. A villain that could even rival Khan if done right.
A Starfleet captain who actually came up through the ranks and has the experience to draw on.
Good foil for the new, young Captain Kirk to learn from.

Garth of Izar would be perfect. There has never been a super villian in a ST film that comes from Star Fleet or the Federation. Plus, an added bonus would be you wouldn’t have to bury the character in makeup as you would if the antagonist were Klingon. This is very important because TREK 12 should have a major, major actor to play the villian to ensure better international gross and to justify a higher budget. In my opinion, it makes little sense to hire a major star, then bury him or her in makeup. This was done with Eric Bana in the first film. How does star power help you? Most people didn’t even know it was Bana–not that he’s that great a star to begin with.

168. S. John Ross - August 23, 2010

#164: “There should be a reboot at least once per generation if not moreso.”

Certainly, 2009 would have been a good time for a Trek reboot. Ah well.

#166: There were also some pretty groovy entirely-audio Trek stories made in the 70s. I’m still very font of of those and quote them often :) “This United Federation … this tiny fabrication masquerading as an inhabited ship … is but a DECOY. MANUFACTURED IN YOUR OWN PERVERTED FACTORIES! You will paaaay for that. DIE, SOCIAL MISCREANT!!!!”

(did he actually say “social miscreant?” I hope I misremember that … somebody please correct me …)

169. Disinvited - August 23, 2010

#166.

Errata.

“History has show that ST built it…” should read “History has shown that ST built its…”

170. Nelson - August 23, 2010

A couple of thoughts to Anthony and Bob Orci:

Thanks for making these videos possible to view and to the person who shot and edited it. Great to see if we could not make it to the con! Nice job moderating and also for doing the moderating at the Trek film screenings recently.

Bob Orci, I know my comment is probably noise to you, but as was mentioned above and on the panel in Vegas, I do not like the Parallel Universe idea. Or Quantum Mechanics as the way to make this happen. It’s easy for me to criticize and a lot harder for you to create a story. So I give you a lot of credit for creating a story and getting it made! It was a well crafted film,.

I love TOS and I hate the idea that it’s been turned upside down. On the other hand, I’m an old fan and I know one goal of the film is to make brand new fans. So again, it was a success in that goal! It’s not your Dad’s Star Trek anymore. I will say it had a lot of really good moments, the best part for me was the Kelvin sequence, it was very emotional. Well directed as Kirk’s Mom is talking to George.

And I really liked Pike. This new version of Pike I can really say was great and I hope he’s back.

I hope I like the sequel more. Best wishes on the creation of that film.

171. MegaBearsFan - August 23, 2010

@167: I like that idea! Garth of Izar actually would be a cool idea for a villain. The only problem is: would it fit in the new timeline. After all, doesn’t the last scene in 2009 Star Trek movie take place like 10 or 15 years before the events of the Original Series? Perhaps they change his backstory so that witnessing the destruction of Vulcan is the new catalyst for him being driven insane?

I actually still think that Sybok could make an excellent villain in a new Star Trek movie. Vulcans who are bitter, broken, and “emotionally compromised” by the recent tragedy of their homeworld being blown up, and being unable to cope with the feelings, may turn to someone like Sybok as an almost cult figure, possibly rallying them against the Federation for failing to protect their home and getting them involved in intergalactic affairs (i.e. founding the Federation with them) to begin with, or possibly even against the Romulans since Nero was Romulan. They could become terrorists, and the movie could draw on recent real-world events for parallels and inspiration.

I think the destruction of Vulcan and the trauma that it will cause with both the Vulcan race AND the Federation as a whole is something so big that it MUST be addressed in the next movie.

172. Anthony Thompson - August 23, 2010

Were Sebastion and his little Asian dreamgirl in the audience? : D

173. S. John Ross - August 23, 2010

#170: “Perhaps they change his backstory so that witnessing the destruction of Vulcan is the new catalyst for him being driven insane?”

Two movies in a row with a nutjob villain driven to nutjobbery by watching a planet go foom?

If they absolutely must have a villain (and I doubt there’s any talking them out of that), I hope it’s a new one, and one without the convenient cop-out of “he’s insaaaaane! boogedyboogedy!!! [assorted cartoon sound effects, including at least one loud Sproi-oi-oi-oing]” obviating the need for any cleverness in the plotting.

If they absolutely must have a villain AND they absolutely must nick a character from TOS to turn _into_ said villain, then yeah, Garth, I agree.

174. AJ - August 23, 2010

166:

The bulk of those who bought tickets for ST09 were not “Star Trek fans.” And guaranteed, many of those “fans” either did not attend any cinema viewings, or simply awaited the DVD release/free Internet download.

On this very site, several Polish fans lamented not being able to find the film even distributed in most their country of 40 million, so they most likely resorted to Torrent viewings, like many do these days, or road-tripped to Germany if they could afford it. International distribution in many countries was terrible.

If you took the amount of ‘Transformers fans’ in the world, you would find far fewer, I am sure, and you would be harder pressed to explain how “Revenge of the Fallen” earned $800m worldwide on the basis of its alleged fan-base, (strictly boys 8-14 and grizzled nostalgic ex-8-14 year olds). My 8-year old son loved the Transformers films, but he forgets about them once the films end. Star Wars, however, is always on his mind.

A good statistic to track would be how many new “fans” they can track after Trek09. And the one great error CBS has made is launching no new TV content or merchandise to keep the kids hooked. Trek2012 will be another re-launch of the franchise in terms of marketing spend to new viewers. A super-hot animated show with the images of the newly imagined crew would have kids leading their parents by the hand to the cinemas in 2012.

Betcha it will not happen.

175. S. John Ross - August 23, 2010

#166: “Factor in that about half those ticket buying fans loved the movie so much that they bought more tickets in repeat multiple viewings [...]”

What’s your source for this?

#173: “The bulk of those who bought tickets for ST09 were not “Star Trek fans.””

What is your source for this?

I find everyone’s beliefs really interesting and stuff, but (seriously) does anyone have anything resembling credible polling or tracking data for _either_ side of this one?

176. MegaBearsFan - August 23, 2010

172:
“Two movies in a row with a nutjob villain driven to nutjobbery by watching a planet go foom?”

Good point. I didn’t think of that until after I had made the post. The justification for Garth going insane could be anything. Maybe witnessing the destruction of the Starfleet armada at the hands of Nero is the catalyst. Maybe the writers can actually come up with a very compelling and satisfying reason for his insanity. Or maybe they go the direction of making it “perceived insanity”, and actually give him an Ozymendius-esque sense of “I must make the world [er, galaxy] right – at any cost”. I had just used that example of the destruction of Vulcan because it would tie the next movie in with the last one, and lets face it, watching a planet explode has to be pretty darned traumatizing!

But as fun as Garth might be, my vote is still for Sybok (who is, might I add, NOT insane)

What I would really like, though, is to see a new Star Trek TV series. A series of movies just doesn’t allow the writers enough opportunity to create purely character-driven stories. Movie-goers want excitement and action, and that is not what Star Trek is about. I don’t want to see Star Trek turn into a James Bond in space sort of franchise – not that the Bond movies are bad, mind you. But I doubt that the cast of the movie would settle for the reduced money they’d get from a weekly TV series. Which is sad…

177. Basement Blogger - August 23, 2010

There’s one question that needs to be answered for the next film, that is,

“To 3D or not to 3D?”

Until we get a holodeck, a truly immersive film experience will not happen. I am not going to wait until the 24th century. But think about a Trek show on a holdeck… Seven of Nine…. S-e-ven……….

Opps sorry. Back to the question. I’m going to cop out and say if Paramount wants to release Trek ’12 in 3D, that won’t bother me.
But film it in 3D. NO 2D to 3D CONVERSIONS IN POST PRODUCTION. Here’s why. I’ve seen “Last Airbender” in 3D. It was a conversion. It was too dark. Special effects and visuals did not take advantage of the medium. Not worth the extra couple of bucks. However, I read that “Piranha 3D” was a conversion. That movie was too dark but the director knew it was going to be released 3D. So it was set up to take advantage of the medium. It was more successful if you like human body parts thrown at you.

I’ve seen “Avatar” in 3D and IMAX 3D. IMAX was more spectacular. But both versions worked in 3D. I believe that was because it was filmed in 3D. If Paramount wants to release Star Trek ’12 in 3D, they can spend the extra bucks to film it in 3D. We shouldn’t get a lesser product but get one commensurate with “Avatar.”

178. MegaBearsFan - August 23, 2010

In fact, going on with my Sybok suggestion, I could imagine the climax of the movie having Kirk, Spock, and Sybok in a room in which Sybok is about to perform (or order the performance) of some violent act against the Federation council because he blames them for Nero wanting to destroy Vulcan. And then just before he gives the order, Kirk shouts “Wait! Do you know WHY Nero blamed the Federation?”
To which Sybok replies, “We obtained records of the Enterprise’s logs. We know the Federation failed to save Romulus from destruction, and Nero blamed them. So i blame them too”
Kirk: “You’re wrong. The Federation is innocent. You want to know who is to blame?”
Sybok shrugs it off.
Kirk: “He’s standing right in front of you! Its your brother. Its Spock.”
Spock, looking confused at Kirk, “Captain?”
Sybok: “What did you say?!”
Kirk: “The Federation from the future didn’t want to help Romulus. But Spock promised he would. He even promised he’d do it himself. And he failed. the destruction of Romulus is Spock’s fault. And so is the destruction of Vulcan. Not the Federation’s.”
Sybok: “How do you know this?”
Kirk: “The future Spock himself”
Sybok: “oh, I suppose you met him? And he told you this sad story?”
Kirk: “Better. He showed me. In a mind meld.”
Sybok: “A mind meld? He melded with you? This ‘future Spock’?”
Kirk: “Yes”
Sybok: “… And would you permit me to meld with you? To be sure?”
Kirk: “Go right ahead”
So Sybok melds with Kirk, discovers that Spock is ultimately responsible for the destruction of Vulcan and must decide whether to continue his fight against the Federation, or take out his rage on his own half-brother. Additionally, Spock now has to deal with the additional guilt of discovering that he is (at least partially) responsible.

Or something like that… I’m not a writer.

179. Disinvited - August 23, 2010

#173. “The bulk of those who bought tickets for ST09 were not “Star Trek fans.”

Difficult to see evidence that supports your claim The 2009 STAR TREK CinemaScore numbers certainly don’t back you up and the 40+ year history of successful marketing to Trek fans would certainly argue against your contention that Trek fans won’t reach into their pockets if they have just an inkling that “STAR TREK Lives!” and will support it to that end.

I think you confused my example to paint the enormity of the numbers that have to be dealt with to get to new fans with saying that all fans DID buy a ticket. No, they didn’t but even if you accept that only half that so did you then have to contend with a significant portion that was moved to repeat. If you say the average was 3 returns per fan then the numbers are right back up there crowding out any room for HUGE numbers of new fans in the attendance figure for a box office take of $385 million.

Your bringing up TRANSFORMERS only further makes my point; for, indeed, I agree that if the 2009 ST outing had achieved XFORMERS range B.O. of $600 to $800 million worldwide then they definitely would have had room for significant HUGE numbers of new fans in those attendance figures as did those movies you cited.

180. Woulfe - August 23, 2010

My thoughts on trans-warp-beaming

It can only beam you from A to B but not back again, that why we’ll never see it used again, can we move on now ?

181. Data Logan - August 23, 2010

151. Basement Blogger
NOKIA may not make it to the 23rd century in our universe,
but it certainly will in the Star Trek universe, as we saw

182. Data Logan - August 23, 2010

180. Woulfe
just because you may need a transport station to send someone via transwarp beaming (which was not really established in the story, but makes sense) doesn’t mean it’s not still a very powerful tool

bombs and supplies can still be sent to help in warfare or logics, as needed

still, like you, I would like to just have this timeframe of the ST universe forget about it

but 146. Disinvited makes a good point; it’s going to be hard to put the genii back in the bottle

183. Data Logan - August 23, 2010

161. FarStrider –
21 drinking age may not be around in mid-23rd century Iowa
Or maybe the bar only served non-alcoholic drinks (even though they may have had alcoholic names)
Or maybe military service allows you to drink earlier than you could as a civilian (hey, it worked with the voting age back in 1971 with the 25th amendment to the Constitution)

184. Bucky - August 23, 2010

Just to parrot Boborci from an AICN talkback circa May 2009 “Saving the Earth stood out on (Kirk’s) resume”. Like, really, guy is made acting captain, under being said acting Captain he saves the planet’s bacon (while the rest of the fleet is screwing around the Laurentian system). Then, after all that, you TAKE AWAY his Captancy? Like, really? What the hell kind of acknowledgement is that? It’d be goofier if they busted his ass back down to cadet at the end of the flick.

185. Data Logan - August 23, 2010

in refence to 171 & 176. MegaBearsFan,
more about timing of movie and Garth of Izar:

Star Trek ’09 movie is not 10 years before TOS
Nero states that he has waited 25 years since the destruction of the Kelvin, which would make Jim Kirk 25, but Nero could have been rounding off a little.
The more telling fact is Chekov’s age of 17. Chekov stated in TOS episode Who Mourns for Adonais? that he was 22; this episode is normally placed around the 3rd or 4th year of the original 5-year mission. (the 1st year of the 5-yr-mission is when Dr Piper and LCDR Gary Mitchell were aboard, then first season of TOS was about 2nd-3rd year of 5-year-mission, placing the second season of TOS in about the 3rd-4th year of the 5-yr-mission)
If Chekov was 22 in the middle-ish of the 5-year-mission, then this new movie takes place about 5 years earier when Chekov is 17, meaning it’s only about 2-3 years before Kirk’s captaincy of the Enterprise would have normally occurred in the original Roddenberry timeline. This means Kirk is about 29.
So, it’s not that far before the timing of TOS.
It’s just that the Enterprise’s launch has been significantly delayed in the new Abrams universe/timeline compared to the Roddenberry timeline.
The movie was definitely not 11-13 years before TOS timeframe; the characters are much too old for that; Chekov would have been like 10.
Obviously, in the new Abrams universe Captain Pike’s “reign” on the Enterprise does not last 13 years, since he had only just taken command of the ship. But he probably was captain of some other ship for a while. He seems to have experience.
The Enterprise is only just now being launched in this parallel universe, yes, but that just means that the launch of the Enterprise is much later in this timeline for some reason (over 15 years later, even more if you account for the time of Captain April).

Most changes between the timelines can be explained by all the people that were killed on the Kelvin, even if it’s a bit of a stretch. Perhaps one of those people killed on the Kelvin was one of the designers of the Enterprise in the original Roddenberry timeline. So, now in the Abrams universe, with that person now dead, etc, the launch of Constitution-class ships was delayed significantly. This could also explain why the designs are so different.

Still, your point about Garth not yet being insane is well taken. The Garth episode, Whom Gods Destroy, is a 3rd season TOS episode, so presumably it takes place about a year after Chekov states he’s 22 in the 2nd season. Which would mean that the time of that episode, when Kirk meets Garth on Elba II, is still some 6 years in the future for our NuEnterprise crew.

In TOS episode WGD, Kirk knew of the “genius” Captain Garth at least since Kirk was a cadet, which for that Kirk was when he was about 20, so about 15 years before he meets him in that episode. This means that even in the new Abrams timeline that Garth was probably a Starfleet captain long before Kirk joined Starfleet.
(Then again, maybe Garth was one of the junior Starfleet members killed on the Kelvin and never had a career.)

In TOS episode WGD, Garth was a new in-mate since the last time Enterprise visited , which was certainly earlier during the 5-yr-mission, which means he certainly would NOT have been an in-mate yet during the timeframe of Star Trek ’09, which is about 6 years before the time of WGD.

But it was never clearly established in the TOS episode just when Garth went “insane.” At some time in the past he crashed on Antos, was brought back from the almost-death, learned about cellular metamorphosis, became insane, then returned to his ship, where his crew “mutinied” (which I read as took the ship aways from him after he used it to kill someone, etc). Then he spent some un-known number of months/years being cared for my lesser counselors or psychiatrists before being declared incurably criminally insane and sent to Elba II.

It’s entirely possible that the criminally insane thing Garth did with his ship shortly after returning from Antos has happen or will happen soon. The Enterprise could even been nearby for it. Bingo, timing is correct for Garth story.

Then again, this timeline is different. Not only could Garth not exist (as I mentioned above with Kelvin destruction), but he could very well be alive and kicking and still a very decent captain in Starfleet. Maybe Captain Garth died on one of ships destroyed at Vulcan. Maybe he was safely “screwing around the Laurentian system” with the rest of the fleet and is still alive. Maybe the change in the timeline will prevent Garth from ever crashing on Antos in the first place and he will never go insane.

Come to think of it, I would love to see a sane brilliant genius Captain Garth of Izar, hero of newly-minted Captain Kirk. Like Captain Pike, he could be a bit of a mentor for Kirk. (see my discussion in 123 for Kirk’s inexperience needing acknowledgement)

Or, if nothing else, you could just drop is name in background of the movie. If there’s another ship that comes to help the Enterprise, wouldn’t it be great if it was captained by Garth of Izar. A little nod to the fans without distracting from the story that’s pulling in new fans.

186. Disinvited - August 23, 2010

#184.

That’s an interesting, if one-side approach Bob’s taking. I think he is forgetting that to some degree there’s a bit of politics involved in skipping over ranks. The Earth is only one Federation planet. There’s another Federation planet that was lost whose politics was definitely shown in the movie to look down on Earthers. The point being there could be an equally strong anti-faction who just as easily could blame Kirk for the loss of Vulcan in failing to discombobulate the drill in a speedy and efficient manner. I don’t think, in this instance, saving Earth alone, is necessarily the Wonka Golden ticket that he’d hoped it would be.

If you are going to have the balls to destroy the planet Vulcan to show that narrative is going to be unlike any before, you’ve got to have the balls to show the possible repercussions and the fact that they all likely won’t smile down and bless the fair-haired boy.

Ultimately, I don’t think such an anti-Kirk faction could make it stick as the responsibility for the mission’s failure to save Vulcan falls on those who where in command which was Pike and then Spock. But it should at least be noted that the fault Kirk faction exists. If the next film has time to explore it I would like to see Spock shut down the attempt by standing up and taking responsibility to put an end to the matter. If done well it could be a great opportunity to show the friendship growing and the two mutually supporting each other.

187. Tom - August 24, 2010

I LOLed when I saw a fat Klingon with a cup of cofee in the audience

188. Disinvited - August 24, 2010

#175.

I agree there isn’t much hard data. And as I said in 179, I wasn’t trying to make a case on the exact number of fans attending but rather the size of the potential numbers to be overcome towards making the opposing HUGE claim.

Ultimately, I build my case on the only thing close to scientific data gathered:

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/oct/13/entertainment/et-bigpicture13

and the Ocam’s razor of interpreting that 2009 data against the Cinemascores of Trek films past with similar A range scores, i.e. higher than B+.

Then I would use the circumstantial evidence of a few failed 2009 merchandise attempts to make the Ocam argument: which is more likely, that the word of mouth spread among the rank and file Trek fans (Whose syndicated grown numbers are more than capable of sustaining a $385 million B.O. in several permutations of the data.) as indicated by the track record of Cinemascores past, or that the word of mouth of largely older males jumped demographics, something an A range grade for a ST film has never before indicated?

I suppose that I should be clear that I believe all accessible Trek attracts new fans, even the 2009 effort, I just don’t see any evidence that 2009 is doing it at an unprecedented rate that dwarfs all preexisting mechanisms that continue to do likewise.

189. Patrice - August 24, 2010

Disinvited…hmm
I see your point. However…
I could be wrong, but I believe that the success of Trek 09 was the notion that many Newbies could go to the theater and follow the picture without having an extensive knowledge of the Trek Universe and yet, still be able to understand the storyline and its characters.

Trekkies, myself included, (yes) are going to go to the theater and see the latest Trek picture en masse, and someone of us may even see it multiple times whether it’s good or bad. We have done it for all of the motion pictures, but 09 was different. The viewing numbers were greater than that any other Trek picture that was produced within the past 10 years. I like to think that we Trekkies alone lead to the great success that 09 was, but honestly, I dont think so.
My observation of 09 Trek is that it transcended its select audience of Trekkies and attempted (successfully) to reach a larger group of individuals who knew very little of the series or franchise. By doing so, more individuals could follow the picture and thus ensure others that they could too which resulted in 09 Trek becoming mainstream and thus a popular picture.

190. Commodore shaggy - August 24, 2010

@131 way up there – I understand that Kirk was happy to be demoted but the point I was trying to make was saving earth does not mean you should win some big prize for it like becoming Captain of the flagship of Starfleet from a cadet level since in every other movie they save Earth, nothing like that ever happened.

191. Bucky - August 24, 2010

But in every other movie when they saved Earth, they were already senior officers. Are they really going to bounce the entire crew back to their respective positions after they single-handedly saved Earth or decide it’s probably in Starfleet’s best interest to keep the hero crew together. It’d be silly if Starfleet was like “Horray, thanks for the save. that was a close one. Now back to your sub-standard cubby holes, chumps!”

192. Boborci - August 24, 2010

190 if Kirk hadn’t saved Earth in Trek 4, he would’ve been jailed for disobeying orders, stealing a ship, etc, in Trek 3 — being totally pardoned for criminal behavior and then being returned to your dream job sounds like a pretty big prize to me.

193. the Quickening - August 24, 2010

#171

The new timeline allows some changes in characters and details. Anything can be the new catalyst for Garth of Izar being driven insane as you suggest. Timeframe becomes a moot point. That’s the whole beauty of the alternate universe.

The Vulcan antagonist has been done though–to rather poor results in ST 5. I suspect the creative team will steer well clear of that for that reason alone.

194. Disinvited - August 24, 2010

#189

I definitely understand the desire to believe that. There’s even a huge hype machine employed to promote the idea, as well there should – it’s about time STAR TREK had something like that backing it up.

Unfortunately such machines aren’t founts of scientifically accurate information. And attendance is just guesswork as ticket prices ever inflate and the studios, Paramount included, never release the number of tickets sold because they don’t perceive such numbers to be sexy enough to self-promote.

So we have to look for evidence or lack thereof these postulated largely ignorant of STAR TREK newbies elsewhere.

One other place where I see them missing is the 2009 decision by Playmates to cancel their Christmas 2009 line due to lack of sales. Now some try to explain it away by declaring those products as shoddy and inferior but isn’t that an evaluation that only an experienced older Trek merchandise purchaser would make? How could a young newbie ignorant of the range of Trek products and their quality spontaneously arrive at that insight? Wouldn’t they just buy it assuming that that is as good as it gets? And lets be frank, isn’t the reason the young are consider a desirable marketing demographic because they are largely undiscerning in purchasing beyond that something be “popular”?

The other attempt to dismiss this is to bring up the economy. But in 1979-1980 when STAR TREK movie toy marketing was in its infancy we were in an oil shortage induced recession and I don’t recall any TMP related toy line being canceled due to lack of sales during that.

So I bring out the razor, lop it on the strop and ask: Isn’t it more likely given the past histories of Trek merchandising in various types of economies, that the reason the Playmates lines didn’t sell is because the marketing was geared to a huge swath of largely ignorant of Trek young newbies that didn’t materialize at the B.O., as opposed to a huge swath of ardent experienced fans who actually did?

195. Vernon Wilmer - August 25, 2010

Who has time to read all these novels?

196. Patrice - August 25, 2010

I love trek. I do, but if I were a kid, I would want a cool Transformer or a laser-like, light-saber rather than a Kirk doll (collectible…action figure, whatever).

I think the problem with the toy line was that the toys weren’t that cool, from a kid’s (or a kid-at-heart) perspective. I even thought twice about paying $30 for a Spock doll (action figure..whatever). I eventually got it and a few more collectbles, but I am a fanatic not a Newbie.

Now bring in a cool and terrifying Klingon, a decent-sized Batliff or fierce looking Bird of Prey with movable parts and you market that like a you would a light-saber or a millennium falcon, now your talking.

IMO

197. Disinvited - August 25, 2010

#195.

Since 1968 there have been hundreds of titles of licensed STAR TREK novels published and in ST fan-fiction too many to enumerate, apparently fans of STAR TREK do.

198. moauvian waoul - August 25, 2010

160 NuFan – “Sometimes I feel hopelessly lost and confused reading these comments. So much obscure trivia in them.”

Ah, don’t worry about that. I’ve been a fan since ’72 and I still get lost in here. And the great fans here will be happy to correct you when you do. :)

199. Disinvited - August 25, 2010

#196. Patrice observed “Now bring in a cool and terrifying Klingon, a decent-sized Batliff or fierce looking Bird of Prey with movable parts and you market that like a you would a light-saber or a millennium falcon, now your talking.”

As none of those elements were in the 2009 movie proper, you’ve just unintentionally made an argument that supports my position.

200. VanceJackson - August 26, 2010

Regarding potential villains, I think incorporating Khan into the story could be great. I think including the Klingons is important, and if they were to act as the main antagonist of a story it would be important to have a good klingon villain(s). Personally, I would love to see Kirk and General Chang, both in their primes, mixing it up again. Another thought, The Mirror Universe has not been done on a feature film level before – it might be fun to watch the crew somehow go head-to-head with their mirror-counterparts.

As much as anything though, I would like to see the new film(s) address the relationship between Kirk and Carol Marcus. This is a huge component of Kirk’s character from ST2 through ST6 and they never really address what happened between them, why their relationship was such a sensitive spot for Kirk emotionally, how his son was born (not expressly HOW he was born, but you know what I mean ), etc. What better time than now? Generally speaking though, I think ST has always been at its best when its furthering the bond between the characters (especially Kirk/Spock/McCoy) so that should be where the focus remains, in my opinion.

201. Patrice - August 26, 2010

#199- potential concept and marketing tool for ST XII

202. Vernon Wilmer - August 26, 2010

Patrice what the hell is a Batliff?

203. Disinvited - August 26, 2010

#202.

http://www.ninja-weapons.com/Swords/Ornate_Swords/Ornate_Swords.shtml

Stock number::BF11466

204. Cliven - August 27, 2010

The “prime” timeline was not TOS Star Trek. Kirk’s older brother was named “Johnny” in this movie, but “Sam” in TOS. As the timeline was disrupted by Nero at *Kirk’s* birth, this detail was already different (as it is Kirk’s older brother) so the movie’s “prime” timeline was not the one we know from TOS. Additionally, Vulcan was universally blue-skied in this timeline, and it was not so in TOS (a quote from the series “Enterprise” said Vulcan *occasionally* had blue skies, but this is was a very late tack-on to canon [probably used to save the production crew $] and the Vulcan we see in the movie always has blue skies).

Vulcan did not have a “sister planet” in TOS. Delta Vega was on the edge of the galaxy, incidentally, so the point is moot; it was just very sloppy writing by the team.

One thing which can be explained away by the alt timeline: warp speed is now Star Wars hyperspace; ST starships can see what is around them when they are at warp, and even fight at warp speeds, but the new movie ships “jump” into hyperspace and then drop back out to normal space completely blind to everything in “normal” space until they return to it. The ability to see and fight at warp speeds was always a staple of ST (and an advantage in ST/SW combat comparisons ;) ), and I’m not sure why it was removed, aside for, again, a lack of continuity checking in the writing phase.

Aside from Chris Pine’s voice annoying the hell out of me (I guess this timeline’s Kirk had some sort of throat infection which altered his vocal chords as a child; you couldn’t get an actor who sounded less like Shatner if you tried) the one thing I would want to see is the back end design of the new Enterprise be changed to something that doesn’t look like a Fisher-Price bathtub toy. I don’t care so much that the design is different; it just looks damn UGLY. The TOS big E was always cool looking, and the TOS movie E was beautiful; this thing is hideous.

205. Disinvited - August 28, 2010

#201

You may be more right than you know:

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=10976188

It looks like they may need your help. The number one movie merchandise shipper of 2009 was GI JOE:RISE OF THE COBRA.

Appalling in that JOE came out later and STAR TREK had much more time in which to move merch. In fact, in the 18 months back from June of this year ST barely makes it to the top ten. And at that, the majority outperforming it were released after ST with much smaller windows. Only one film, MONSTERS VS. ALIENS, had a longer merchandise time frame.

Also all those films’ abilities to out ship merch over ST in that (still) lousy economy gives proof to the lie of STAR TREK’s shipments being cut having to do with said economy excuse that was floated.

206. NuTrekFan - September 3, 2010

I’m just a new fan so I really don’t know what I’m talking about, but it seemed to me that Kirk’s rapid promotion might have been about necessity. There is no detailed tally of losses by the Federation given in the movie. Could it not be that Captains are needed, and his baptism by fire was a justifiable reason for awarding captainship. Also, Captain Pike’s injury might just be a temporary impairment. Would he not be able to take back captainship of the Enterprise after recoveriing?

207. personal injury attorney seattle - September 8, 2010

Listen. The STAR TREK 2009 breathed complete life into the series. It is just flat-out incredible piece of cinematography. The film is flawless. Joseph Campbell himself would have been proud of that script. The one in 2012 has BIG shoes to fill. Not to mention the new lieutenant O’hara. I’ll go just for her lol. Seriously, she did a great job. They all did.

208. VanceJackson - September 14, 2010

Here here, #207.

209. Vernon Wilmer - July 21, 2011

JJ’s Trek movie sucked. LAST WORD!!!

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