Roberto Orci Reveals Star Trek Sequel Tidbit In NYT Article About iPad – Is T’Pring In Sequel? | TrekMovie.com
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Roberto Orci Reveals Star Trek Sequel Tidbit In NYT Article About iPad – Is T’Pring In Sequel? October 25, 2010

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Orci/Kurtzman,Science/Technology,Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

One again Apple’s new iPad has crossed paths with Star Trek, this time revealing a tidbit about the upcoming sequel. Today the New York Times has an article about iPads being used in Hollywood, with an example of how Star Trek co-writer Roberto Orci used his in a meeting with the Star Trek ‘Supreme Court’, excerpt below.

 

Touting his iPad – Orci reveals Star Trek sequel tidbit

The New York Times article about how "Hollywood is Hooked on iPads". The article kicks off desribing how Star Trek co-writer/producer Roberto Orci carried one into a meeting to discuss the Star Trek sequel with his fellow members of the Star Trek "Supreme Court", here is an excerpt:

Mr. Orci, meeting with the producers J. J. Abrams, Damon Lindelof and Bryan Burk, and his fellow writer Alex Kurtzman, jump-started the discussion with an iPad slide show, showing stills from the first film, snapshots of potential locations and a photo of a suggested actress for one of the roles. On the woman’s photo, he had used his iPad to paint on a Vulcan ear.

So this article about technology gives us a potential tiny morsel of information about the Star Trek sequel — notably that that the plan (as of now) could be to include a Vulcan female character. Assuming this to be true, the fact that it would be discussed at such an early high-level meeting could mean it is an important character.

As there is very little info to go on, it is fun to do some speculating (even though there is no real confirmation). One possibility would be to bring back T’Pring, the Vulcan Spock was bonded to from "Amok Time". Bringing in a potential romantic rival to Uhura would add an interesting dimension, especially if Spock feels obligated to help the now greatly reduced Vulcan civilization. It also brings in the possibility of us seeing the new universe take on that delicate Vulcan issue of pon farr, the 7 year itch that Vulcan’s get when it is time to mate.


T’Pring (Arlene Martel) in "Amok Time" – could she be back?

Other possibilities could be T’Pau (also seen in "Amok Time", plus some episodes of Enterprise) or maybe Saavik from Star Trek II & Star Trek III or Valeris (Star Trek VI), but sticking strictly to canon they would likely be too young. And of course they could be talking about an entirely new character as well. Then again, maybe Orci was just goofing around with his iPad and there is actually nothing to it.


Saavik (Kirstie Alley) from Star Trek II – another important Vulcan female in Spock’s life – but does the timing match?

POLL: T’Pring?

Would you like to see T’Pring in the Star Trek sequel? Vote in the new poll, plus sound off below. Feel free to offer some casting ideas too.

T'Pring in Star Trek sequel?

View Results

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T’Pring gong-blocks Spock in "Amok Time"

 

Orci loves his iPad

Orci mostly talks about how much he loves his iPad in the article, telling the NYT “When you’re carrying a little TV around, you bring the power of imagery to places that you don’t normally have it.” Orci tells the NYT he uses his iPad as his daily call sheet, and to help him keep tabs of all his various projects.

Over the summer Bob sent me a picture of himself playing with a Star Trek app on his iPad, to be shown at the Star Trek convention. Here it is.


Bob Orci with his beloved iPad

 

Thanks to all the readers who sent in NYT link as tip

Comments

1. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

Aw, c’mon, six billion Vulcans die and T’Pring got out alive? Talk about a buzzkill!

2. The Unknown Poster - October 25, 2010

I vote for Saavic

3. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

Oh, I see the logic now…..Saldana wanted a big fight scene in the next movie. They’ll have a reverse K’alafee where T’Pring will challenge Uhura to a fight to the death for the Spock boy-toy. Catfight! Meowwrr!

4. Alex - October 25, 2010

Glenn Close as T’Pau!

5. Captain Rickover - October 25, 2010

T’Pring?
A good idea, as far as it concerns just Spock. Could bring him in trouble. Should he stay with Uhura or should he go with T’Pring, the women he was promised to as a child. I see potential if that’s indeed part of the story.

As far as this rumors concern Saavik… Is she not just a child in the timeframe of Star Trek XII?

6. Tom - October 25, 2010

Was that Shatner’s name on the screen? Just kidding

7. Jefferies Tuber - October 25, 2010

I think a Vulcan narrative is a no-brainer. The planet of our big brother species, #2 protagonist is destroyed. You can’t just ‘move on’ to a new storyline and pretend that a global holocaust didn’t just occur. This movie has to be as impacted by Vulcan’s destruction as TSFS was by TWOK.

8. N - October 25, 2010

I don’t want this universe to mirror the old one exactly.

9. Jorg Sacul - October 25, 2010

Can’t be Saavik, unless she’s a little girl…but then, in this universe, all things are unwritten.

10. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

Well, as long as the Uhura/T’Pring fight is a subplot. Otherwise, I’ll feel like I’m watching an old episode of Dynasty, with Krystal and Alexis having a drag-down catfight in the mansion’s pool! Yeesh!

11. jas_montreal - October 25, 2010

I’m very encouraged with what i’m hearing. Nice little twist into the Uhura-Spock relationship.

12. Martman - October 25, 2010

Love the cap too,

:oD

13. Alientraveller - October 25, 2010

We’re getting a female version of the Amok Time fight! Someone remind Giacchino to use the music.

14. Jim Nightshade - October 25, 2010

No tpring what is the point?? In the first movie they already shot down the 7 year PAH FAR thing by showing spock in a romantic(assumed also physical) relationship with Uhura so if that is the case then Salmon Vulcans dont spawn every 7 years…also hard to go back upstream to his river, the planet vulcan since its blown up to hell….

What good for fighting over Spock….when they changed most of the rules in the first movie…im not saying for good or for bad just that its different….so if Tpring is coming that should be and will be different as well….

15. rogue_alice - October 25, 2010

T’Pring sounds like the sound metal Spork would make if rapped on the edge of a table.

16. Ritsu - October 25, 2010

We want Mr. Saavik!

17. Jordan - October 25, 2010

Lets pretend like she’s dead. MOST vulcans are dead, so its hard to believe all these we know about having survived.

18. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

Watch, after all this discussion, it’ll be Meryl friggin’ Streep playing T’Pau!

“KRIKER!!”

19. eduardo sanchez - October 25, 2010

are we sure that the nyt writer knows the difference between a vulcan and a romulan, dr. spock? and how do we know that just because orci photoshopped a pic like this that it will mean there is to be a vulcan female in the new movie?

20. Chris Brooks - October 25, 2010

Let’s see…in the last movie, Kirk was choked several times, punched in the face, literally hung from a cliff more than once, injected with god-knows-what from McCoy, and had to stand there and watch as Spock and Uhura were making out. And he didn’t even get to have his shirt ripped to show off his six-pack! If anyone should get the romantic sub-plot it should be him! Do we really have to drag T’Pring into this? She used her cold flawless logic on Spock to get what she wanted. And in the book “Spock’s World” she almost got Vulcan to leave the Federation! I hope they don’t bring her back because I’m sure they can make up a more interesting Vulcan female character. I’m gonna pretend she died an agonizing death when Vulcan imploded.

21. TrekkieJane - October 25, 2010

Saavik’s too young. I have to admit that – if the Vulcans were handled well, treated as a mysterious alien culture, not a broad allegory for intolerance (as in the first movie), I’m intrigued by the idea of T’Pring being in it.

22. Boborci - October 25, 2010

19. Exactamente.

23. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

20. “I’m gonna pretend she died an agonizing death when Vulcan imploded”

Well, we can always hope! :>)

24. Michael - October 25, 2010

If it’s a child T’Pring, probably Hannah Montana! If it’s an older one, Betty White!

25. AJ - October 25, 2010

T’Pring is the ultimate pre-ex-wife from hell, complete with a sniveling “new” boyfriend whom she knows is dogshit compared to Spock.

Arlene Martel just radiated high-threat-level with no remorse as T’Pring. If that gets translated over to the new film, it just makes young Spock that much more complex and tortured as he continues on his journey. I’d love to see it.

26. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

22

Oh, so we’re to conclude that you just like photoshopping Vulcan ears on pictures of women?

Oooooh, eeerie! Or is that ear-ee? Either way, we get the point! Ok, I’ll stop now!

27. I'm Dead Jim! - October 25, 2010

@19…

I agree it may be a bit of a stretch just based on what I read. But I do like the T’Pring idea as a sub-plot.

28. I'm Dead Jim! - October 25, 2010

Oh… and I love your iPad, Bob!

29. G - October 25, 2010

Lindsay Lohan, as young Saavik. Mel Gibson, as Khan.

Yes, I’m kidding.

30. DS9 Rocks - October 25, 2010

Anthony, did you make the jump to T’Pring from just that tidbit in NYT? I have to admit, it’s quite an intriguing twist, but one that wouldn’t have jumped to mind right away. It is very reasonable though given the circumstances. If T’Pring does in fact become a big character in the movie (and you made the conclusion on the spot, AND Bob Orci is not influenced by reading this post), that would be very prophetic and impressive!

31. Anthony Pascale - October 25, 2010

As noted in the article T’Pring was speculation not based on anything Bob said in the NYT or to me. However, I admit it is something I have thought of before that would be interesting as it creates an interesting tension with the whole Spock/Uhura thing

32. Patrice - October 25, 2010

Pon Farr, K’alafee (Uhura would so kick ass), the Enterprise, I love it.
Bring it on!

33. Buzz Cagney - October 25, 2010

Two hotties fighting over Spock? Now that is really gona roast Jim’s nuts.

34. Magic_Al - October 25, 2010

Besides the fact that a lot of surviving Vulcans would have lost their spouses and betrothed, I wonder if the male/female ratio of surviving Vulcans is out of whack. Pon farr could get messy!

35. John Whorfin - October 25, 2010

Anthony:

It could also be the Romulan Commander from THE ENTERPRISE INCIDENT. (Or a new Romulan character, as we have no confirmation it’s a Vulcan.)

36. mr. NUspock - October 25, 2010

what about…….T´pol?????

37. Buzz Cagney - October 25, 2010

It could just be some poor dear who got her ears caught in a mechanical rice picker. It does happen you know. Sometimes.

38. Darkthunder - October 25, 2010

One female Vulcan not yet suggested, is Enterprise’s T’Pol. She would be around 170 years old by the time of 2258 (born 2088). Ofcourse, she’d be very old and all, but still. Given that they’ve confirmed the new timeline to be the same as the ENT timeline, it makes sense to include 1 or more characters who might still be around in the new TOS-era. Which essentially would be Vulcans (i.e T’Pol, T’Pau and possibly T’Pring).

We’ve already had a dose of Sarek, but what happened to his father before him (Skon) ? I’m personally holding out hope for them to form a “New Vulcan” planet within this new timeline, to somehow try and match the timeline to the known timeline.

39. John - October 25, 2010

Saavik and T’pol as little girls on the Enterprise, running around, that could work! Hell No!!!!

40. Kent Butabi - October 25, 2010

Erica Durance as Saavik! Totally could work.

41. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

38.

Skon?

Nah, they’ll have him conveniently absent, away on a fishing trip during the time of the next movie. With typical Vulcan efficiency of words, he’ll have left a sign on the door of his dwelling that reads……(yup)…….SKON FISHIN’

42. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

40.

Great! This time they can kill HER instead of David!

43. Capt Mike of the Terran Empire - October 25, 2010

I see Harry is at it again. I would not mind seeing T Pring. But would rather see Tpau as she would be a better fit. Or Tapou from Enterprise along with Archer. Some good Possibilitys. I like that I Padd. Kool.

44. DJT - October 25, 2010

Saavik was half Romulan. It would be interesting to see the origins of her relationship with Spock.

45. trekprincess - October 25, 2010

Yes it would be very interesting :) I say bring it on

46. Balok - October 25, 2010

The guy draws an ear on the iPad and a frenzy ensues. A real stretch here, but T’Pau would be more like it.

Of course they could have U’Hura and T’Pring fightt to the death over Spock. This would be right in line with the twisted universe.

… now that I’ve said that, I actually like it…

47. Horatio - October 25, 2010

Hmmmm. I kinda like the speculation of T’Pring. I’m with Anthony on this one.

Personally, i’m not a huge fan of the Spock/Uhura love nest.

48. I'm Dead Jim! - October 25, 2010

Anthony, I just appreciate you stirring the pot a bit. Good talk!

49. girl6 - October 25, 2010

Nah. Not T’Pring. Spock would not be knockin’ boots with Uhura if he were still bonded to T’Pring.

Other possibilities:

Female Romulan Commander (ohpleaseohpleaseohplease)
T’Pau
Random Vulcan character
Just doodling on his iPadd

But whatever. More Pike and much much more McCoy, please. And keep the McCoy slapstick to a minimum. Also, no more giant vajayjay monsters. Actually, no giant monsters at all. Except dragons from Barengaria VII.

50. ety3 - October 25, 2010

T’Pring. Fight music. Angry Uhura.

Sounds like a good subplot to me.

Throw some Klingons and Prime Directive intrigue into the “A” story, and I’m happy.

51. BorgKing - October 25, 2010

Love the LCARS graphic interface.

52. Areli - October 25, 2010

No T’Pring. She is more fit for an episode of ST or a later movie.

I’d like to see Saavik, but she’d be a child but consider how there would probably be a bigger rift formed between the Vulcans and Romulans as an aftereffect of the Narada incident. Saavik would make a good device to show how big the strain is between the cousin races…But that also sounds like a plot later on.

53. Red Dead Ryan - October 25, 2010

I think Bob is up to his usual tricks in teasing us with something he drew for fun. He may just find Vulcan/Romulan/Mintakan ears sexy! :-)

As for the potential love interest for Spock in the sequel, I have to say no to the idea. He had a relationship with Uhura in the first film which was fine under the circumstances, but its time to see the cold, emotionless Spock from the original series. If they do bring in T’Pring, which I wouldn’t mind as a minor character, the writers should create some tension and emotional turmoil for Spock. Perhaps if Spock feels that since he is only half-Vulcan, he tells T’pring that despite his feelings for her he isn’t the ideal husband or mate. And that Spock also tells her that his place is on the bridge at the side of his best friend, Captain James T. Kirk.

54. Pensive's Wetness - October 25, 2010

actually, unless they act time travel wise to unscrew the timeline, i wouldnt be surprised if Romulans come in to HELP repop Vulcan society, either movie or books…

55. VZX - October 25, 2010

T’Pring would be a perfect addition to the movie. I like the idea to re-visit Amok Time as a way to deal with the problem of no more planet Vulcan. So, now we know the Spock/Uhura story, but what’s the main story?

I would hope that it’s something epic that takes 2 movies to tell. Like, maybe the Klingons use the future Romulan tech they got from the Narada, and major bad things happen and the crew looks doomed by the end of this movie, only to come back and win it in the end of the third.

Sounds like the first Star Wars trilogy.

56. James Cannon - Runcorn Trekkie UK - October 25, 2010

Saavik should technically be a young girl then again Chekov should also be between 9-12…. Stupid Alternative Timeline.

Kirk said he was 34 in Deadly Years and earlier (The Apple?!?) Chekov said he was 22…
The new timeline has all the ages completely wrong.

Sent from my iPhone – Don’t have an iPad…. *sniffle

57. Phil - October 25, 2010

How about an entirely new female Vulcan….T’Plowed, T’Peed, T’ip, T’Wang, T’opless, or T’wizzler?

T’Pring gong-blocks Spock in “Amok Time”…Hey, what is that suction mark on her arm, anyway??

58. DJ Koloth - October 25, 2010

If there’s going to be “love complications”, it’s should be Spock/Uhura/Chapel…

Just sayin!

59. Corinthian7 - October 25, 2010

I like the idea of bringing T’Pring into the story and I think she would add to the sequel more than any of the other established female Vulcans. I don’t have an issue with her surviving when so many perished as at the end of day most works of fiction are based on contrivances to some degree. Furthermore we have to assume that she comes from a wealthy and resourceful family so it’s certainly plausible that she would have had better chance of escaping than the average Vulcan. I’m sure some would complain if the Pon Farr is triggered during the movie as it’s a lot earlier than the tv show but That could easily be explained as a consequence of the traumatic loss of the entire planet or even a biological change due to the population change.

60. Just Another German Trekker - October 25, 2010

Hmmm… T’Pring kicking Uhura out of the love triangle with Spock reasoning that he is obligated to bond with a Vulcan to keep the Vulcan civilization alive… that would be quite an interesting prospect. To be sincere, I really didn’t like the whole Spock-dating-Uhura issue in the first place. Finding a reasonable way to end this subplot would be a welcome idea.

61. Phil - October 25, 2010

58. DJ Koloth – October 25, 2010

Oh, come on. lets really stir the pot here…a Spock/Kirk love connection!!Throw in a Horta for a little fun!!

62. Jack2211 - October 25, 2010

I really hope there’s no rehashing of TOS minor characters and plots. It might kill me.

63. Areli - October 25, 2010

@53

“And that Spock also tells her that his place is on the bridge at the side of his best friend, Captain James T. Kirk.”

I like that idea the most.

And if Spock really cared about his marriage bond, if T’Pring was still alive, he would have never allowed Uhura to get that close to him. Unless in this universe the marriage bond was split when Spock left to join Starfleet, but then T’Pring’s secret lover, Stonn, died on Vulcan and now T’Pring needs a new mate.

Why she would choose Spock, who is still half-human and has even more fame than his Elder self had at that age? Were those not her reasons for splitting from Spock in TOS?

That being said, if T’Pring did appear to take Spock away, Spock would remain out of duty and camaraderie. Maybe because I’m not into S/U, but Spock’s reason for being on the Enterprise was because of the friendship he’d have with Jim. Not because of his undying love for Lt. Uhura.

@54

I think the destruction of Vulcan will just make more inclusive and against mixing species, even if Vulcans and Romulans are cousins. To Vulcans, Romulans are much too emotional and do not act on logic.

I think the unification of Romulus and Vulcan will speed up because of the Narada incident, but Vulcans will hardly start to breed children with them.

64. drapera - October 25, 2010

…and so it begins…

65. cw - October 25, 2010

57: I vote for t’opless. hell yeh

66. Lope de Aguirre - October 25, 2010

I don’t see how T’Pring would be great for the next movie.

But I would love to see T’Pau or a T’Pol.

67. Harry Seldom - October 25, 2010

I’m still more interested in how we’re going to deal with the fact that a Vulcan must return TO VULCAN to mate. In “Amok Time,” this was a very powerful drive. Can the surviving Vulcans control themselves enough to enable breeding on a new world at all? I picture ships full of young male Vulcans flying headlong into the singularity where their planet had been . . .

– Harry

68. dmduncan - October 25, 2010

Could mean anything.

69. CmdrR - October 25, 2010

If I just had a Google street view car, I could have practically seen the sequel by now.

BTW – “gong block” totally part of the geek lexicon now.

70. Aurore - October 25, 2010

Since we need more McCoy in the sequel , I think we should boldly go with the untold love story of Leonard and T’Pring.

T’Pring and Leonard….myeah! I so can picture this!Come on!Who’s with m…….oh…never mind.Sorry.

71. Phil - October 25, 2010

67. Harry Seldom – October 25, 2010

Really? Hyper intelligent, super logical Vulcans are all going to fly into singularity ’cause they can’t get laid? What, they don’t have a pill for that?

Not to sure that Spock is going to have to call his doctor if the erection lasts longer then four hours….

72. CmdrR - October 25, 2010

67 – The Vulcans would be pretty Mule-headed to fly into a singularity. They’d do better to build a Foundation for their new future history.

73. Thorny - October 25, 2010

If we’re going to see significant others in this movie, I’d greatly prefer Carol Marcus to get this alternate universe somewhat back on track and not consign David Marcus to the “never was” column.

74. Harry Seldom - October 25, 2010

71, 72:

Have either of you watched the beginning of Amok Time? Spock mutinied. He really couldn’t help himself. This should be a problem.

– Harry

75. Captain Karl - October 25, 2010

It could be T’Pol as Vulcans live much longer than humans and don’t age as fast. Perhaps she could be Admiral Archer’s aide and is escorting him to meet with Scotty to discuss what happened to Porthos in the transporter incident…

To have an Amok Time nod, could we hear stings of the battle music between Kirk & Spock? Too soon really to have them best of chums and Spock to “feel” remorse for killing his captain…or perhaps, this time line, Kirk “kills” Spock (after a timely hypospray from Bones…I dunno…makes his ears swell up) and Kirk ends up with T’Pring?

76. NuFan - October 25, 2010

Better make sure your ipad doesn’t fall into the wrong hands, Bob.

77. Captain Karl - October 25, 2010

And I would soooo get an iPad if they dropped the price dramatically!…so many other choices for that price, especially if I can find a tablet PC that I can draw my comic directly on with a stylus. Just sayin’…iPads are cool and all, but just an oversized, overpriced iPod touch

78. fallynleaf - October 25, 2010

I think T’Pring should totally be in the sequel. Maybe cast by Anne Hathaway?

And I think that she would provide a great reason to break up Spock/Uhura because /that/ only happened in the first place because Spock needed someone to hug. I don’t, however, think that pon farr should be included. Canonically, it’s too early anyways. Spock had his first pon farr in the episode “Amok Time” and he was much older then.

79. Phil - October 25, 2010

78. fallynleaf – October 25, 2010

Didn’t re-generated Spock experience Pon Farr a few times on Genesis in Trek III? Really don’t think the logistics of getting Vulcans laid will make for all that interesting of a movie.

Hey, maybe Betty White can play T’Pol?

80. Thorny - October 25, 2010

78. Did they ever say “Amok Time” was Spock’s first pon-farr? He should have had at least one back when he was serving with Captain Pike.

81. T'Selik - October 25, 2010

Me no likey T’Pring…

How about T’Pol from Enterprise? it was set 100 yrs or so prior to TOS, so she should still be alive… :P

Much as I love Quinto!Spock, and all, do we have to have a Pon Farr oriented film? I’d prefer to see more Sarek/Spock bonding- consider their strained relationship in TOS/TNG, they now have the chance to remedy that, Sarek as good as approved Spock’s Starfleet decision in the 2009 film, let’s get them understanding each other better!

82. fallynleaf - October 25, 2010

#80

He said in “Amok Time” that he’d “hoped that he had been spared this [pon farr]”. And, he went to Vulcan in the first place to finalize his ‘marriage’ with T’Pring. He explained it to Kirk as “less than a marriage, more than a betrothal”.

The entire episode only makes sense if he’d never had a pon farr before.

If he would have had one, then he’d have gone to Vulcan then and T’Pring would already be his wife and there would be no ceremony in Amok Time for his ‘marriage’.

83. Charles Trotter - October 25, 2010

Looking at the wording, I think they meant he showed an actress who was suggested for the first film, not for the sequel. Also, Romulans have pointed ears, too; pointed ears do not necessarily a Vulcan make.

84. Bob Tompkins - October 25, 2010

T’Pol.
They have already referenced Archer, so the only canon left is Enterprise. ironic, that.

85. FarStrider - October 25, 2010

I very much doubt that they are going to break up Spock and Uhura. . . the writers aren’t going to make Uhura the “Bitch that breaks Spock’s heart” and Vulcans are mostly monogamous… plus, the writers had the courage to put them together in the first place: this is one of the main elements that differentiates this universe from the old. . . it would be silly to change it mid-stream and quite frankly…no one is going to be like they were in TOS, given what has happened, it is impossible…T’Pring could be an interesting wrinkle in the S/U story, though…but she is not necessary.

and Vulcans can have sex outside of pon farr. . .they just HAVE TO HAVE it DURING pon farr. . .

My vote, however is the Romulan Commander. . .T’Pau and T’Pol are also good candidates. . . (no Saavik, no Valeris)

~FS

86. Demode - October 25, 2010

I have always believed that T’Pring did not want to marry Spock because he was half-human. All the stuff she said, even though most of it it was probably true, was used to get around admitting that she didn’t want to marry a man was not not a full Vulcan. It was prejudice.

87. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

So, if Kirk gets in the way of Spock getting laid by one of these ladies, would people accuse him of being a……..(wait for it)…….SPOCK-BLOCKER?

88. FarStrider - October 25, 2010

87. BOOOOOOO!

~FS

89. fallynleaf - October 25, 2010

#85

Vulcans most certainly are not limited to sex only during pon farr.

D.C. Fontana clarified this somewhere.

And Vulcans being monogamous?

Uh, Zarabeth, Leila, Droxine, The (female) Romulan Commander… Who else is romantically associated with Spock at some point? And then there’s T’Pring.

Speaking of T’Pring, what about Stonn?

She right out told Spock that even if he were to choose her, he would not be around and so she would still have Stonn.

Sorry, there doesn’t seem to be any inclination that once a Vulcan becomes romantically (or even sexually) involved with someone that he or she can’t back out of it.

90. Paul - October 25, 2010

I’d prefer T’Pau – if only because I;m fed up with every woman in the reboot being a wife/girlfriend/mother. However, they could feature both if they want to throw a an obstacle in the way of Spock’s romance as a C-plot.

I think Harry Mudd will likely get a cameo as a second-tier, minor villain. I can see him getting involved in some shenanigans. I’d like him to be involved in interstellar salvage and rescuing the Botany Bay in the closing credits…

91. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

88. “BOOOOOOO!”

(in my best Rodney Dangerfield voice, straightening tie)

“Huh! Tough website!”

92. Red Dead Ryan - October 25, 2010

87

Spattering of sarcastic applause………someone in the front row yawns……a door blows open……a tumbleweed rolls in…….a couple of bouncers remove you from the stage……

93. FarStrider - October 25, 2010

Nothing happened with Droxine, the Romulan Commander was a ruse, Zarabeth happened 5,000 years in the past with Spock’s emotional control reverted to primative state…Leila was spores. . .

by the way some people act here, Spock is supposed to be an eunuch…but still, Vulcans are represented as being mostly monogamous. . . if only in fanon. . .

~FS

94. Jonboc - October 25, 2010

T’Pring? I could take her or leave her…all depends on how she is used in the plot. And yes, the iPad is amazing, I use it in some form or fashion every day. Using it now to type this up. Amazing times!

95. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

92.

Yes, but at least I got my shot in!

As Al Pacino would say, “HOOO WAH!!”

96. fallynleaf - October 25, 2010

#93

Even if one writes away all of Spock’s “love interests” (which, considering the fact that Spock/Uhura happened because Spock ‘needed someone to hug’, means that Uhura can just as easily be written away), there is still the matter of T’Pring (a full Vulcan, nonetheless) and Stonn.

It would be no problem at all for her to have an affair alongside her marriage to Spock. She stated this outright, and Spock agreed with her that it was perfectly logical.

A few kisses does not a marriage make. If it did, then Spock would be with Leila or the Romulan Commander. Yes, he was drugged in Leila’s case, and yes, he only seduced the Romulan Commander so that Kirk could steal the cloaking device. But obviously those attachments weren’t considered important enough for him to have to marry either of the women.

Vulcans may generally be monogamous, but they don’t treat a romantic fling with extreme significance.

97. Daoud - October 25, 2010

@14 Dorothy Fontana herself clarified almost 40 years ago, that Vulcans can have sexual relations anytime they like, not just every 7 years. It’s simply that they MUST during the pon farr that occurs every 7th year, and can only manage to survive it by being with the one they were bonded to: or undoing the bond through the koon ut kalifee. So if he ain’t gettin’ no koon, he’s gotta have kalifee.

@Boborci… Beware Romulans bearing gifts! :) (Especially if they speak German… that German Gift ain’t is worse than a week-old French fish!)

If you gift us a female Romulan, we will be in debt to you forever. Especially if she’s hot. (And not by being vaporized by a phaser blast!)

98. Red Dead Ryan - October 25, 2010

95

Yeah, well, you’re a lousy shot who missed the target but managed to hit all of the wrong notes! :-)

99. Daoud - October 25, 2010

@98 Well, he sings in the key of ursa minor…. (little dipper, yanno.)

100. FarStrider - October 25, 2010

96. Ultimately, none of Spock’s “relationships” in the TOS matters in the New Universe…this is an alternate reality, things have turned out differently….

Let me quote Bob Orci from May 18, 2009:

“Once we committed to the sacrilege of what we were attempting, there was not having pause, however, we knew many things would be scrutinized and difficult for some fans, like the ship on earth, Spock Uhura, Kirk becoming Captain quickly, and a million other things. But we went into it with our eyes open, and we made sure that no decision was made out of ignorance of what came before. *All deviations were deliberate.* ”

I don’t think they are going to write away Spock/Uhura unless there is a EXTREMELY good reason in the story (and not internet fanwankery) to do so…

101. Red Dead Ryan - October 25, 2010

99

“Little Dipper”……hmmmm…….sounds like what a midget calls his “schtick”!

102. Anthony Thompson - October 25, 2010

Bob, I hope some of those snapshots of suggested locations include Arcosanti (www.arcosanti.org) in Arizona, designed by Paolo Soleri and the City of Arts and Science in Valencia, Spain (designed by Santiago Calatrava). Both would make outstanding locations for the sequel!

103. ster j - October 25, 2010

Oh, T’Pring’s survival has been fodder for fanfics since the movie premiered! She’s been everything from a heroine, a sympathetic character, a b!tch, to everything in between. Meowr!

104. Anthony Thompson - October 25, 2010

102.

BTW, photos of those places can be found by visting my page on Flickr (www.flickr.com/photos/thompsonphotography1) and doing a search of my photostream for ‘Calatrava’ and ‘Soleri’.

105. Dee - October 25, 2010

T’PRING!!!

106. Mel - October 25, 2010

“Bringing in a potential romantic rival to Uhura would add an interesting dimension, especially if Spock feels obligated to help the now greatly reduced Vulcan civilization.”

I really don’t want to see this in the movie. I already didn’t like the Spock/Uhura relationship. A Spock/Uhura vs. Spock/T’Pring story would be even worse. Spock is a hybrid. They could just say he is sterile, like mules and other hybrid animals.

107. SirBroiler - October 25, 2010

It makes sense that the logical Spock would see the need to end his relationship with Uhura to find one of the few surviving Vulcan women to be his future mate. Or at least be tempted by this idea. So T’Pring or even another Vulcan female in the story seems quite plausible.

108. FarStrider - October 25, 2010

107. Spock is not fully Vulcan. . .and given their attitude toward Spock in both TOS and ST09 would the Vulcans want to pollute the endangered species with human genes? Plus, any genetic contribution that Spock could make would already be covered by both Sarek and Spock Prime. . .so, there really is no logical reason for Spock to be on the look out for a mate, or leave StarFleet. . . or he could be sterile (but he was genetically engineered, so I doubt that is true). . .

~FS

109. Weerd1 - October 25, 2010

Jolene Blalock as T’Pring!

110. dmduncan - October 25, 2010

Dichen Lachman as T’Pring:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1901842/

111. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

RYAN!!!!!!!!

112. Daoud - October 25, 2010

@110 Dichen definitely has an otherworldly look. However, I get a bit too much of the Cynthia Gouw as Caitlin Dar in Star Trek V: The Fatal Fart-here.

Could make a great T’Pring though. However, Eliza Dushku…. as the Romulan Commander… hmmmmmm. PERFECT!

113. gingerly - October 25, 2010

I’m shaking my head at those of you who want a soapy subplot or “girlfights”. This rumor is unsubstantiated.

T’Pring was awesome in TOS but she likely died on Vulcan in this universe.

114. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

…and that’s the sound her head made as it bounced off the exploding debris of Vulcan…………T’PRING!

115. Sebastian - October 25, 2010

Come on; out of only a mere tens of thousands of Vulcan survivors (out of nearly six billion) and T’Pring happens to be one of them?

No familiar villains (maybe as a subplot, but not as a main storyline), or old love interests, please; that’s the old Trek universe.

The new altered universe offers a whole field of fresh storytelling opportunities! Use it.

116. fallynleaf - October 25, 2010

#113

There was some of that already in “Amok Time”.
Look what happened to poor Chapel, who kept trying and trying but never got Spock to return her affections. Remember the plomeek soup?

I don’t even think that it needs to be that big of a deal.

Besides, what’s the quality people remember about T’Pring? Her manipulation of Spock. Despite Chapel being there as an unrequited love interest, there was no “girlfight” between her and T’Pring.

I think Uhura would be mostly mad at Spock for not telling her that he was betrothed to another woman rather than starting a rivalry with T’Pring.

117. Khan was Framed! - October 25, 2010

How do we know that’s not the nameless female Romulan Commander for the Enterprise Incident?

118. Red Dead Ryan - October 25, 2010

111

Hey, don’t blame me, I’m following YOUR lead!

119. fallynleaf - October 25, 2010

#117

I wish!

I really hope that either T’Pring or the Romulan Commander is in the sequel, even if she were to only have a small role.

Even better would be if the movie had them both.

And better still if one or both were the main villain(s).

120. fallynleaf - October 25, 2010

And as for casting T’Pring, I say Anne Hathaway: http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lai3thc0Up1qc9g3no1_500.jpg

121. Phobos - October 25, 2010

I think (hope) the Vulcan female is the one who is responsible for the birth of
THE BORG!!!!

Isnt that explained in some recent Star Trek game?

122. Buzz Cagney - October 25, 2010

#88 thats our Harry. Every seventh post he goes through Pun Farr. If he fails to deliver an amusing crack he’ll go into a quite ferocious rage and for gods sake don’t show him a bowl of chicken soup. It’ll end up on your head.

123. TrekTech - October 25, 2010

Hmmm…well, the T’Pring idea is a good one…since I brought up this very scenario including Spock’s determination to fulfill his duty to repopulate the species and the whole T’Pring/Uhura triangle thing many months ago here on this very forum. If they go that route I want tickets to the premier. As to Bob and his IPad …he showed it to me person and I do believe that it has grafted itself permanently to him.
Id love to see the Klingons but I think they should be characterized a la John Ford’s ‘Final Reflection’. Ford’s Klingon’s were intelligent, politically motivated warriors to whom life was a very serious game of chess. They weren’t Barbarians. If they use the Klingons Id like to see more of that and less ‘Bikers from Space’….

124. Harry Ballz - October 25, 2010

122.

Buzz

so you DO know me! I can, on a whim, deliver pain or delight!

Which one will you choose?

125. Buzz Cagney - October 25, 2010

Trick or treat, eh, Harry?

126. Harry Ballz - October 26, 2010

First I’ll trick her and THEN I’ll treat her!

MAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

127. CmdrR - October 26, 2010

74 — Was making a play off your name, Harry. Or at least the name Hari Seldon. Nevermind.

128. CarlG - October 26, 2010

@18: Or Dame Judi Dench! :) Wasn’t the priestess from Star Trek III Dame Somebody?

129. Ironhyde - October 26, 2010

Orci – what writing app do you recommend? I have Pages and I use it constantly. It’s decent.. but… Anything else you like? Thanks!

130. dmduncan - October 26, 2010

113. gingerly – October 25, 2010

“T’Pring was awesome in TOS but she likely died on Vulcan in this universe.”

LOL! You are so HOPING they write it that way! Yeah, we know why.

131. Bradley1701 - October 26, 2010

I wouldn’t be surprised that with Vulcan being gone and the species being endangered, that Spock would dump Uhura and take a Vulcan wife to try and rebuild the species (which is only logical). This would create an interesting and tense story arc between Spock and Uhura.

132. Patrice - October 26, 2010

I like the s/u relationship as a subplot. The introduction of T’Pau and pon farr would be really cool too in order to create a triangle, but once again as a sub-plot. I loved Trek 09. You guys cant go wrong.

133. Brandon R - October 26, 2010

It could always be T’Pol.

Stranger things have happened.

134. Hugh Hoyland - October 26, 2010

I was able to read what was written by magnification and indeed its about the next story! It said “Star Trek The Sequel, Copyright 2010 Bob Orci, Alex Kurtzman, Damon Lindelof, based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry. FADE IN: We……” Thats it. :]

135. Hugh Hoyland - October 26, 2010

I was able to read what was written by magnification and indeed its about the next story! It said “Star Trek The Sequel, Copyright 2010 Bob Orci, Alex Kurtzman, Damon Lindelof, based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry. FADE IN: We……” Thats it. :]

136. John - October 26, 2010

I’d love to see T’Pol

137. Desstruxion - October 26, 2010

Vulcan was a boring planet. Should’ve been blown up years ago. Good job Nero.

138. CAPT KRUNCH - October 26, 2010

How bout the Romulan commander from Enterprise Incident…she would be a great enemy!…has pointed ears!

139. gingerly - October 26, 2010

@116

I think Uhura would be mostly mad at Spock for not telling her that he was betrothed to another woman rather than starting a rivalry with T’Pring.

…And this would be stupid and/or out of character for them both. Their mature egg-heads. There would be no daytime-style secret-keeping and besides, any plot of that nature would have me rolling my eyes waiting for the story to get back to theTrek plot.

@130

LOL! You are so HOPING they write it that way! Yeah, we know why.

Actually, she was my favorite female character in TOS (yep, even more than Uhura). The only one who succeeded in her scheme and would have regardless of the outcome. She was smart and cool.

I wouldn’t mind her coming back, however unlikely, if only she has a reason to be there that doesn’t involve turning the movie into a cheap daytime soap.

It’s funny you laugh and argue constantly about the integrity of Trek and denigration of that by “fangirls” and yet “the soapy stuff” (your pushing for Kirk/Uhura) seems to be what you want most of all.

I want the Trek story front and center and the only hints of the romance (i.e. Leia/Han Zoe/Wash).

140. BiggestTOSfanever - October 26, 2010

We can absolutely NOT have T’Pring. Although I like her character, it would mean that Spock (always aware of T’Pring’s presence) knows she’s still alive and then kisses Uhura? That goes against his principles and it’s dishonest. I figure he reacted to Uhura because he felt T’Pring die. That shock and his Mother’s death would break down his self-disipline and he needed emotional comfort. Saavik on the other hand would be a great edition, especially if it’s her origin story; although I would not want that as a main plot, it could solidify her heritage in canon.

141. gingerly - October 26, 2010

@140

I figure he reacted to Uhura because he felt T’Pring die. That shock and his Mother’s death would break down his self-disipline and he needed emotional comfort.

This is an example of the many people who didn’t pick up the hints that they were already together before the turbolift scene. I would be embarrassed for these people, if it weren’t so expected.

They saw these hints for sure, but did mental jujitsu to explain them away as platonic, because the idea of those two being together was so abhorrently wrong to them….

…Excuse me, the idea of “Spock succumbing to Uhura’s aggressive pursuits.”

And so strangely, explanations they use to fix this awful anomaly make even less sense.

142. fallynleaf - October 26, 2010

#141

What hints?

According to Word of God, Spock/Uhura only happened because Spock needed some form of emotional support( which in TOS he would have gotten from Kirk) but since he wasn’t friends with Kirk yet, Uhura fit into that role.

Here’s a quote from Roberto Orci, writer of STXI, discussing the reasoning behind the romantic subplot:

“It was a decision that was made largely because Spock had just suffered the death of his planet, and you felt for him so dramatically, and in a moment like that the person he would talk to – in his own Spock way – would have been Kirk, except him and Kirk weren’t friends at that point.”

“So, it felt like there was an organic way to make Uhura his secret confidante,” Orci continued. “What happens in that scene is that you are paying tribute to a variant of what happened in the original series, and want Spock to have a hug in that scene. And because he can’t express emotion – well, he can but he chooses not to – we felt like [Uhura kissing Spock was] a really good way to allow the audience to do that for him.”

And as for Spock/Uhura in TOS… There is next to nothing. Yes, he smiles at her in Charlie X, but Nimoy has said that he hadn’t quite figured out Spock’s character yet that early in the series (and besides, if you counted every one of Spock’s smiles, then there are way more directed at Kirk, even later on, and I’m sure that you would not want to suggest that all of Spock’s smiles mean romantic interest). And that one conversation Uhura had with Spock in an early episode that seemed flirtatious on Uhura’s part? Well, for one thing, any possible flirting flew completely over Spock’s head, and any sort of similar conversations never happened again.

Uhura was canonically paired with Scotty in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, and even if one personally dislikes the movie, it’s still canon.

I don’t think that there is a single Spock/Uhura moment strong enough to count as romantic interest after “Amok Time”, meaning that if Spock and Uhura were romantically interested in one another during TOS, it was only apparent before Spock had “divorced” T’Pring.

143. Bob - October 26, 2010

BRING BACK SAAVIK!!! LOVED her in Trek II

144. dmduncan - October 26, 2010

139: “It’s funny you laugh and argue constantly about the integrity of Trek and denigration of that by “fangirls” and yet “the soapy stuff” (your pushing for Kirk/Uhura) seems to be what you want most of all.”

No, that’s not what I’d want. I’ve constructed an outline of a story I’d like to see. Uhura to me is the measure of Kirk’s maturity, and that’s how I wrote it. They don’t get together, but in order for him to be a credible captain, he has to raise himself up in her eyes because it’s through her relationship to Kirk in the first movie that really establishes how immature he is and how far he needs to go. So after their history, if he turns around how she really sees him, he’s The Captain then. He’s worthy of respect and admiration instead of being just a really clever jerk. I don’t see how you can leave Kirk that way as the captain of the Enterprise without turning the franchise into a parody.

145. Pierre - October 26, 2010

Wasn’t there an acknowledgement, or at least an implied intention from Boborci in a previous thread several weeks ago to have a wedding between Spock and Uhura. This could be a confirmation of this. T’Pring coming into the limelight to stop the wedding could develop into an interesting secondary story, very secondary hopefully,

146. tosfan2 - October 26, 2010

142. fallynleaf

“What hints?

“According to Word of God, Spock/Uhura only happened because Spock needed some form of emotional support( which in TOS he would have gotten from Kirk) but since he wasn’t friends with Kirk yet, Uhura fit into that role.”

Not true! The relationship already existed, and unbeknowest to whether or not they have engaged in full-on coitus – we at least know they “have” been locking lips…..

This is the exact exert from the ST 2009 tie-in novel – page 120 of the ebook:

“Then, she leaned forward, put both arms around him, and pressed her lips against his. Though mixed with sorrow and regret, no one would have mistaken it for a platonic kiss. In a manner plainly half-human, half-vulcan, Spock responded. In a fashion sufficiently straightforward to indicate that he had done so before.”

Zachary Quinto stated in a Q&A with fans at comic con that Spock and Uhura has relations – hinting at a possible back-story. They just didn’t come together in that moment for convenient story-line comfort that’s for sure…. And didn’t J.J. Abrams repeat several times in the dvd commentary that they are in love? I’m pretty sure I heard him say that at least three times. He obviously directed them to exude an attachment to one another because he seems pretty darn excited by it – not to mention the actors themselves.

147. dmduncan - October 26, 2010

LOL. It already IS soap opera.

148. Cmdr. Jacobs - October 26, 2010

Kirstie Alley as T’Pol
BTW – T’Pol was 60-something during the ‘Enterprise’ years, so add 75 to that, and she should still be a sweetheart…

149. MJ - October 26, 2010

Please, no Pon Farr in the sequel…it will come across as lame in a major movie event like this.

150. fallynleaf - October 26, 2010

#146

Then it seems like there are differing opinions regarding Spock/Uhura, because Orci (quote in my post 142) thought otherwise.

Besides, Spock and Uhura did have a mentor/student relationship prior to their romance. Quinto could have been referring to that.

And I don’t know what J.J. Abrams has or has not said on the matter, but is it even certain that he’ll be directing the next movie?

I think that there’s evidence that points in both directions and that whoever gets a hold of writing and directing the sequel could interpret the relationship any way they want.

151. MJ - October 26, 2010

#141 — so it sounds like you would prefer a policy of DADT in the case of Uhura and Spock…how disingenuous…whoops, I mean how thoughtful :-)

152. Buzz Cagney - October 26, 2010

Good, so the Spock/Uhura thing can be dtched next time.

153. dave170106 - October 26, 2010

Mudd might be fun. Maybe even an Enterprise character, or two. I could even enjoy a “mirror” movie.

154. gingerly - October 26, 2010

@147

LOL. It already IS soap opera.

Sure, among fans.

People either vehemently despise it, are indifferent, or love it. …With the most vocal feeling most strongly of the extremes.

Funny, I’ve never seen such vitriol directed at two such likable characters, getting together, before…

…Oh, I’m sorry, directed at one character for getting together with the other, as Uhura is the one often blamed for leaving her station, being aggressive, and taking advantage of Spock in a moment of weakness.

Funny thing is, I never heard anyone call Serenity or The Empire Strikes Back soap operas and yet the romances featured in those sci-fi films got more airtime…

…I wonder why?

The fact of the matter is Uhura has “a place” to many fans (continuing the 60’s tradition for black female characters being inexplicably alone or the modern evolution that is shuffled out of the way with a secondary character, usually temporary and not nearly in her league attractiveness-wise) and so does Spock, with alone = unemotional and therefore more true to his authenticity, which of course, it’s Uhura’s fault for sullying.

Uhura could never be understanding enough to allow him to be thus, despite the turbolift scene demonstrating exactly that.

The thing is, as a black fan, I am incredibly annoyed by the way black female characters are typically treated, in romance or outside of it.

If they aren’t asexual best friends, they are paired with disgusting and unattractive men (see: Monster’s Ball), or something happens eventually to break her relationship up, usually death… (see: Heroes, Battlestar, and Firefly/Serenity), with no fans caring, heck even many are even happy when it happens, saying the same things said about this one.

“They had no chemistry.”

Here is the first movie I can name in which the black female lead is with an attractive lead character who is her equal and there was no over-the-hill, hillbilly racist with she had to have dehumanizing wild sex, to bullet to head, or stakes through her husband’s chest.

It was just a normal relationship and by far the respectful I’ve ever seen a lead black woman treated in a non-black mainstream film.

What I’ve gotten out of all this controversy over a scant six minutes in Star Trek, is that respecting a black woman in a relationship on film is far more controversial and wrong than killing one or wildly shagging one.

But I guess Uhura “aggressively attacking” an icon, who’s out her league, and for which there was absolutely no precedent in TOS (seriously the Medusan is the one who recited Lord Byron) who she has no business being with… This is what it takes it get people riled up.

I mean, come on. Spock rarely returned a female’s affections unless there were spores, time-travel, or spying to be done.

There’s absolutely nothing special about Uhura that would make him choose to be with her, without these influences.

Or least no where near special enough. lol. That’s ridiculous.

…Right?

Sometimes I wonder what fans would’ve said if it had been Chapel in that turbolift instead of Uhura.

One thing, I do know is that if Uhura had kept to the chair with her bluetooth there would have been less contraversy with that, than with her shagging Spock.

And that makes me sad.

155. MJ - October 26, 2010

Some of you folks got way to much time on your hands worrying about debating about Spock and Uhura’s connection. I have no problem whatsoever with the connection these two characters made in Trek 09 — it fits the story well, and I am not “hung up” by it.

156. Aurore - October 27, 2010

“Sometimes I wonder what fans would’ve said if it had been Chapel in that turbolift instead of Uhura.”

After reading your post , I wonder what would happen (among fans essentially) if in the next movie Hikaru was paired up with Chapel or Rand. Or if one of those two fine ladies were to be paired up with Doctor… M’Benga…

157. Aurore - October 27, 2010

By the way, yours was a rhetorical question,but, I would probably have said:”Here we go again…”

158. fallynleaf - October 27, 2010

#154

I understand your perspective and I respect it.

But, I believe directly the opposite. I think that by pairing Uhura with Spock, it lowers her role from a strong, independent woman to a woman who only has value and personality by what she means to a man.

Uhura in TOS was independent. She could do her job as well as or better than any man. In one episode, she even repaired damage to the ship! And her character grew even more in the movies, where she became integral to the rest of the main cast and did important things using her own talents and personality, all showing that a woman is as good as any man.

And she started out just that way in STIX. But, then she was paired with Spock. Suddenly, Uhura doesn’t get any scenes that show her being an independent woman who has all of the skills and strength of a man. She just becomes the exotic love interest for a main protagonist. And then, in Uhura’s scenes, we don’t see her proving her independence and equality. Instead, her role becomes defined by her relationship with Spock. She’ll give him supportive glances, kiss him, and lose what made her stand out before as her own person.

Star Trek 2009 lowered Uhura to the role of a love interest. It “proved” once again that a woman is nothing without a man.

That’s the main reason why I disliked the Spock/Uhura development.

Well, that and I personally don’t think Spock would openly love someone on duty like he did Uhura. I don’t think he would want to show that he had emotion like that to the rest of the crew. TOS Spock was ashamed of his friendship with Kirk (episode “The Naked Time”), for StarClan’s sake! And even that was hard for him to admit and he needed to be under the influence of something before he told Kirk. I find it out of character for him to kiss someone like that in front of everyone. That would be the equivalent of Leila, or Zarabeth, who as I think someone already mentioned, Spock loved them openly only while under some outside influence (drugged in the case of Leila, and his mental state as that of his ancestors 5000 years ago in the case of Zarabeth).

But that’s beside the point.

159. MJ - October 27, 2010

“But, I believe directly the opposite. I think that by pairing Uhura with Spock, it lowers her role from a strong, independent woman to a woman who only has value and personality by what she means to a man.”

BOOORIIIIIINNNNNGGGG! They are adults. They establish relationships and may actually have some sex on the ship from time to time whether they are men or women. Big frigging deal….deal with in and move on. Uhura was outstanding in the new movie as is.

160. Infinitemonkey - October 27, 2010

Yes, I’m all for new femmes to be in the movie especially Vulcans. That way Uhura will just beat the hell out of them, LOL!!!

Any addition to the current women population is always welcome. Please bring more. :D

161. tosfan2 - October 27, 2010

150. fallynleaf

“Then it seems like there are differing opinions regarding Spock/Uhura, because Orci (quote in my post 142) thought otherwise.”

There’s not a differing of opinions. Orci, Krutzman and crew wrote these characters in these situations. The ST tie-in novel is just a collaboration after the fact. What Orci’s answers implies “to me” is the basis of an idea. A plot device that is not regulated to the confines of that turbo lift scene. An idea that was greatly and significantly expounded upon, and given layers that added new dimensions to these characters story arcs. It began with the reassignment scene (which is even more telling in the book), and builds from there. This is why the turbo-lift scene shroud feel “organic”, or as a natural progression to the arrival of that moment. We are given multiple clues beforehand which I feel were too subtle, and the reason why a lot of people didn’t get it. If the turbo-lift scene was only about comfort – then why would there be a beginning scene that gives a huge clue that there is something more going on there, a middle, and ending scenes that leaves no doubt that..yeah…Spock and Uhura are definitely in a mature and committed relationship. We are are shown these interactions between them. Orci, Krutzman, and crew wrote them – and now it’s up to the individual to believe or deny what has been presented.

“Besides, Spock and Uhura did have a mentor/student relationship prior to their romance. Quinto could have been referring to that.”

No. Quinto is definitely referring to an intimate relationship – which garnered an amusing reaction from the audience. It is in his diction when he answers that question. He goes on to elaborate a bit further before stopping. It’s clear that he doesn’t want to elaborate further on an adult theme with little Spock sitting beside him…..

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDpxacUZuYs&feature=related

“And I don’t know what J.J. Abrams has or has not said on the matter, but is it even certain that he’ll be directing the next movie?”

I don’t know if he will be directing or not – but I would be wholly disappointed if he didn’t. You can listen to J.J.Abrams on the dvd commentary (if you have it), during the scenes with Spock/Uhura.

“I think that there’s evidence that points in both directions and that whoever gets a hold of writing and directing the sequel could interpret the relationship any way they want.”

Well – I hope they interpret it wise. Because whether the pairing is liked or disliked; they have quite a following. To drop them unceremoniously would be…..unwise.

162. gingerly - October 27, 2010

@158

…I think that by pairing Uhura with Spock, it lowers her role from a strong, independent woman to a woman who only has value and personality by what she means to a man.

Instead of typing out a long response to this common criticism from well-meaning fans who really don’t understand the difference between a female character (default: “white” setting) and a black female character…

I’ll just direct you to this essay:

http://rawles.livejournal.com/340736.html

163. mamasaymamasagoomagoosa - October 27, 2010

#154

So well put! Indeed it is something that people aren’t use to seeing, a strong, smart and beautiful black woman getting the same respect as any leading white woman. I myself have never seen this in a non-black presentation before and I think it’s lovely.

I hope that what ever happens in the next movie that they give some time to…

Chekov.

164. MJ - October 27, 2010

This whole conversation is sad. Haven’t we moved beyond this folks? It seems like a lot of folks here can’t get beyond race. Treat people as people and get on with life. What a silly and depressing conversation this is. Grow up!

165. gingerly - October 27, 2010

I just want to add that I know some of you are tired of this conversation, but the reason I have piped up in such vocal support of the pairing, within earshot of the writers is because in all honestly, in the back of my mind, I do fully expect them to cave to pressure and drop it.

In fact, I’ve tempered my expectations to assume that’s just what will happen given the vehement negative reactions, as that is what usually happens with black female characters.

It’s skepticism based on what typically occurs.

…Independent, strong, made of Kevlar so you can do anything to them, and they’ll simply bounce back with a neck-swerving toughness and scowling blankness that borders on inhuman (because they really *aren’t*,human! that is, …or heck, even female). No, they are of some kind of a super-human species that can take anything you throw at them, without needing comfort, protection, or companionship.

…That’s not complimentary to us, fallynleaf, it’s a stereotype.

For white women, who are typically leading love interests worthy of gentle wooing by the handsome hero on film, to be in a romance with a lead character may seem like a step down to you.

You don’t know what luxury it is to have the perspective to even consider that to be insult. There’s a reason The Princess and the Frog was such a big deal and it’s not because there have been dozens of black princesses before.

For women who’s default setting is “fiercely independent side-character” or too tough (black) for that kind of love, it’s a step up.

We’re still way beneath/haven’t achieved that step enough to even begin to fathom the ability to look down upon it, understand?

That’s why I believe some fans are coming to defend the pair. …Not because they are certain it will continue, but because past experiences lead them to believe it likely will not.

They don’t trust Hollywood.

So, when I constantly hear fans express anger, disgust, and disbelief that (black) Uhura would ever be special enough to such a solitary and emotionally constipated character that he would actually demonstrably show love (*gasp!* and in front of people!), that he would actually break rules or risk a kiss before dying, that he would even accept comforting tears and a kiss from this genius sex-bomb without reluctance, and that Occam’s Razor simply doesn’t apply to Spock’s inflection of “favoritism” or the significant looks they gave each other when Uhura backed Kirk’s claim and before Spock beamed down to Vulcan…

…I’m not surprised, because when you’re used to seeing a particular type of character a particular way all the time, it can indeed be *jarring* to see them presented otherwise.

In this case, so much so, that it angered people when she was placed well-above that expectation, to the point of denial.

The kiss that *Spock* initiated on the transporter padd was obviously Uhura’s aggressive fault, because omg! so out of character! Spock would never! so improper! not logical! even when going to his death.

…because it’s just not plausible that *any character* would be special enough to get Spock to let his emotional guard down to that degree, in a romantic sense. …. Least of all Uhura.

The unspoken thread is simply that Uhura, no matter how much of a iconically, sexually fierce, “independent”, snarky, brainiac she is, isn’t good enough to plausibly have the ability, in many fans’ minds, to break through Spock’s emotional barriers.

And hat just reeks of people with blinders to the other issues at play.

@164

Sorry, it depresses you to hear about it.

…but It’s far more depressing to ignore it, in hopes that that will make the issue go away, something many don’t have the luxury of doing, than it is to simply present the reality of it.

166. MJ - October 27, 2010

164 — fair enough…we are in agreement for once. :-)

167. MJ - October 27, 2010

165 (correction) — fair enough…we are in agreement for once. :-)

168. gingerly - October 27, 2010

@163

I really want Chekov to have more authentically Russian moments.

I read somewhere that Russian audiences cheered when he jumped up and said “Yomayo!” at a screening in that country.

I’m also glad (hoping?) that sandwiches, scolding Keenser, and anthropomorphizing the Enterprise has replaced the boozy stereotype from TOS for Scotty.

…And I want see some traditional European, non-martial-arts-style fencing from Sulu.

@167

Coolness. :)

169. tosfan2 - October 27, 2010

165. gingerly

We are in agreement! Great post!

“I do fully expect them to cave to pressure and drop it.”

I hope they stick with everything they’ve started. It’s the new stuff that made things interesting.

170. dmduncan - October 27, 2010

@154: S/U is not like Zoe/Wash in Firefly. When Zoe had to make her choice who to save, Mal or Wash, she chose her man without hesitation. She did the right thing. That’s because her bond to Wash, her husband, was stronger than her bond to Mal.

The K/S/M relationship has a symbolic meaning, but they are also the core of the Star Trek family. Their bond to each other is, or has been, the strongest.

Uhura breaks that up making S/U a separate center, having its own gravity, like Zoe/Wash — which is great…for FIREFLY, which I also love. But for Star Trek it introduces a soapy element that I really don’t like, and it also steals the gravity from the core of the family which is K/S/U.

“Sometimes I wonder what fans would’ve said if it had been Chapel in that turbolift instead of Uhura.”

That’s a very good question! Everyone will have to answer that individually. The turbolift scene I could get past. It’s Spock and Uhura trying to eat each other on the transporter pad that I found over the top.

And yes, if they portrayed Spock enjoying a sexual relationship like a human with ANY woman I would object that the character of Spock was being simplified, and that his character’s meaning was being ignored.

Exhibit A: I stopped watching Enterprise soon after it was clear to me that they were going to keep the AWFUL soap opera crap between Tripp and T’Pol. I mean at first I felt cheated because I thought there was going to be some sort of interesting Vulcan-human dynamic between Archer and T’Pol. But it was a bait and switch. And they went with Tripp for your standard soap opera relationship.

I thought it was stupid and stopped watching. That and other things gave me an ephiphany: Whoever was in charge of things on that show didn’t know what the hell they were doing. Same thing that happened to Heroes.

But look, I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion. We’re not going to see eye to eye on this, but that’s okay. I, for one, will live with whatever they decide to do.

171. Delgadeth - October 27, 2010

I have a theme for the iPad & iPhone of Star Trek, called Star trek LCARS, check it out!

172. MJ - October 27, 2010

“Uhura breaks that up making S/U a separate center, having its own gravity, like Zoe/Wash — which is great…for FIREFLY, which I also love. But for Star Trek it introduces a soapy element that I really don’t like, and it also steals the gravity from the core of the family which is K/S/U.”

It only introduces a soapy element if is mishandled. And it was not mishandled here — they nailed it in my opinion. Uhura moved up for me to being my 4th favorite character beyond the Big 3. She certainly was more compelling than Scotty, Sulu or Chekov.

I really do think that some of you, perhaps at an unconscious level, really don’t like here because you preferred the status quo of Uhura being largely and ornament on TOS. Sorry, but the 21st and 23rd century has arrived my friends and the franchise absolutely needs Uhura to have a much more predominant role in Trek’s future — she is the only main female character in the movies, which is behind the times enough as it is.

And Zoe is one of the best actors around today, male or female, black or white. You don’t realize how good we have it having her signed up for 3 movies. She will win and Academy Award some day…you can go to the bank with that.

173. Cmdr. Jacobs - October 27, 2010

In Star Trek Generations – Kirk comments on how Sulu was able to have his career and a family, and in this timeline, apparently Uhura and Spock are doing the same. I just lost a friend last night to cancer, and his large family was by his bedside. I had put a note on his CaringBridge website about people that didnt have family to be with them at the end, and while they might have friends, to have both is a double blessing. These people in this universe were friends, but if they want to be family that is even better for the show in my opinion. I have an uncle that married a African American lady, and a cousin that married a Filipino lady, and by golly they are my family. NO ONE should give a damn about color, and go raise a stink about it. Thank you.

174. Cmdr. Jacobs - October 27, 2010

BTW – I think Felicia Day should be in the sequel as a Vulcan – T’Plle (ryhymes with n’ipple)

175. CarlG - October 27, 2010

I almost want a Spock/Uhura/T’Pau triangle, just to watch Jeyl flip out over it…

176. tosfan2 - October 27, 2010

173. Cmdr. Jacobs

Your post is pure gold! My condolences for the loss of your friend.

177. dmduncan - October 27, 2010

172: “they nailed it in my opinion.”

One of the few tings I thought they didn’t nail.

“I really do think that some of you, perhaps at an unconscious level, really don’t like here because you preferred the status quo of Uhura being largely and ornament on TOS. Sorry, but the 21st and 23rd century has arrived my friends”

You started out addressing my post and then went on to intimate racist motives to “some” people. I hope you are not still thinking of me when you say “some.”

“she is the only main female character in the movies, which is behind the times enough as it is.”

If you meant it as you spelled it, then either I misunderstand or you don’t get to see many movies.

178. tosfan2 - October 27, 2010

172. MJ

Agreed! I really hope the writers don’t cave under pressure, and bail on the ideas that made things interesting. As you stated – the relationship was handled very well, and propelled Uhura to a place where I always felt she should be. Spock can have his friends and family too. It suits his character arc so much better to be in a monogamous relationship than having him involved in silly tryst with spores, regression, etc. The relationship is mature and reciprocative. Uhura is a great character. They all are – and Uhura, Chekov, Sulu, and Scotty should not have to be sacrificed in order to keep focus on Kirk/Spock/McCoy. Enough of regulating great characters to background noise. New dynamics have emerged, and I hope the creative team continues to follow through with what they’ve started.

179. Boborci - October 27, 2010

165. Fascinating!

180. gingerly - October 27, 2010

@170

I’m a fan of Firefly as well and as much as dug the fact that Zoe got to be a somewhat of human being in addition to a machine in many respects, she was made to safely fit a “type” that wouldn’t anger people.

You even noted the aspect that is in keeping safely within the type as much as a positive.

If Zoe had been involved with Mal (not a goofy less attractrive side-character) instead of Wash, people would have the same kind of hissy fit they’re having for S/U for being with someone “it’s not her place” to be with.

So as much as I love Firefly, it still keeps to the status quo when it comes
to black female characters. It bucked no trends, in that respect.

181. dmduncan - October 27, 2010

@180: I don’t think they are going to “cave in.” That they even wrote it that way means they don’t see Spock how I do. They see Spock how you do. So the odds that you are going to get what you want are much higher than that I’m going to get what I want. Time and again I have made the best RATIONAL argument against it that I could. Not me incoherently expressing my dislike of the pairing for vague reasons, but actually giving good understandable reasons which have nothing to do with what you are talking about.

When you speak in broad terms like that about people throwing hissy fits
that Uhura is with someone it’s not “her place” to be with, you know you’re not talking about me or any argument I have made, right?

I liked Wash. He was a great character, and I get your point about her not being with Mal. But then, those kinds of decisions are not up to ME, gingerly. If I were casting things you would see a lot more American Indians in TV and movies as well, because half of America probably believes they’re all extinct, and nobody is more invisible than they are.

So your complaints don’t apply to ME, and none of the reasons for which I’ve opposed S/U have anything to do with wanting black women to remain invisible or stay in their “place” in order not to piss people off.

So it’s not fair to reduce the disagreement about S/U to those issues as if there is no other basis for disagreement when in fact MY ENTIRE ARGUMENT has been based on something entirely different than the ones your complaints are aimed at.

Star Trek and Firefly are totally different franchises. I love them both, but Star Trek is different in part due to the very thing we are arguing about. The crew of the Firefly was much more “realistic,” a mix of realistic characters, whereas the K/S/M triad has symbolic meaning that I feel very strongly is part of the identity of Star Trek that is important to keep and which S/U dilutes the power of by making Spock no different than — sorry to repeat it again — a pointy eared human.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to make such broad generalizations the way you do about what “people” would like and wouldn’t like. Mal and Zoe is fine by me, but then that poses problems for Mal and Inara. That’s how Joss wrote it, and I love the result, because Mal and Inara’s relationship was so poignant. It’s like something out of my own life. But that doesn’t make me anti Mal/Zoe because I loved how it was.

Up to me, I would’ve put a white guy in the male lead of Undercovers opposite Gugu. Why didn’t they do that? Play it “safe”? Probably…

But my argument is particular to Star Trek, not some broad argument about the role of black women in TV and movies. What bothers me is that this core of logic and emotion divided, in Spock and McCoy, and united, in Kirk, which is PECULIAR TO STAR TREK and a really important philosophical idea, will be lost by making Spock more “realistic,” i.e., more human.

It’s an important idea I don’t want to see lost. But alas, all the verbiage in the world cannot stop the Titanic from sinking. If that ship has already sailed, then sink it must.

182. dmduncan - October 27, 2010

If Spock is NOT distinctive from the humans he is around, then other than his ears and funny haircut, what’s to distinguish his symbolic role? Nimoy’s portrayal made it VERY clear how different he was. In the beginning Nimoy was finding the character so you saw little Spock smiles here and there and impatient tones. But as the series went on, Nimoy settled on how to play him, and he stopped smiling. His tone of voice was very controlled. He stopped being emotionally expressive. And THAT is when Spock really began to stand out as “alien.”

183. dmduncan - October 27, 2010

Yes, EVEN in Cloud Minders. What amorous male talks to a woman the way Spock spoke to Droxine? She was like a fish on a hook, and then he drops the seven year Ponn Farr thing on her head.

184. MJ - October 27, 2010

To dmduncan – no slight at your was intended at all, and when I said “movies”, I meant TOS trek movies. Peace!

185. MJ - October 27, 2010

182. Spock is half-human — no one should forget that.

186. MJ - October 27, 2010

183. The 7-year Pon Far thing was interesting and somewhat shocking in the 60’s, but I fear it would be laughed at today if they dealt with it in the new Trek movies. I hope they don’t go down that path in the new films.

187. gingerly - October 27, 2010

@dmduncan

*sigh*

I don’t think you’re being racist, but you are stubbornly and exclusively focused on every character who is affected by S/U accept Uhura.

So, that makes me naturally assume you don’t give two craps what happens to her.

Your proposals for her amount to her being shuffled out of the way of the BIG TRINITY, lest her evil lady romancin’ will MOST DEFINITELY DESTROY!!!

And dude, as much you hate to hear it, that is a profoundly sexist POV.

I think this has more to do with your flawed beliefs about women and relationships than it does with race, with which you have acknowledged you are blissfully privileged to have the ability to ignore and “not care” about, as white male who sees white men doing all kinds of things in entertainment everywhere.

The difference between you and I, is that care about THE ENTIRE CAST.

You?

Only care about the three main white guys.

188. MJ - October 27, 2010

81 — “Up to me, I would’ve put a white guy in the male lead of Undercovers opposite Gugu. Why didn’t they do that? Play it “safe”? Probably…”

Well Abrams, Lindolf and company had the guts to do that in Lost (marriage of wimpy white guy with strong black woman)…that show was perhaps the best example of not giving a crap about race, sexes or stereotypes in SF&F tv history — and they guys are now giving us the new Uhura. They should be congratulated for this rather than nitpiked by us.

189. gingerly - October 27, 2010

@dmduncan

…As for Undercovers, oh please.

The only reason you want to see Gugu with a white guy, is because she’s hot.

Her starring in a mainstream show that’s not defined as a “black show”, and somehow doing this with a black man as her co-star is yet another example of a typically non-existent trope in Hollywood, for which I’m happy to see a member of the The Supreme Court be brave enough to crack.

BTW, both actors were cast in a colorblind process, which is a standard in England, but not in the U.S.

There were no “quotas” filled here.

Funny, how that never gets implied about the many, many, all-white shows. :-/

190. MJ - October 27, 2010

Gingerly, I would hope that some of my fellow males here who are locked in time still supporting the predominance of the Big 3 over Uhura’s ascendancy are not some of same guys who so enthusiastically drool and make adolescent comments over the articles (with photos/links) on this website about Zoe’s modeling and underwear commercials….one would hope anyway…

191. gingerly - October 27, 2010

@MJ

that show was perhaps the best example of not giving a crap about race, sexes or stereotypes in SF&F tv history — and they guys are now giving us the new Uhura

Dude.

I say this all the time about LOST.

And the most significant and ignored of the achievements on LOST?

…Showing an awesome Asian-American couple in love.

with an ASIAN GUY GOT LAID AND DIDN’T DO MARTIAL ARTS and
ASIAN LADY WASN’T SEDUCTIVELY SHY “EXOTIC” ingenue seducing nearby white dude.

I will heart LOST forever for doing diversity right (and for making cry on that episode when learned Locke’s back-story and Charlie’s hand message…and oh dammit! missing that show again! :( ).

But seriously, I appreciate it all the more for an imitation that didn’t quite do the diversity right, with the consequence being that show’s stories suffered immensely for it.

*cough*Heroes*cough*

192. gingerly - October 27, 2010

@190

LOL, I’m fine with it, heck we’re human and the Trek cast is freaking gorgeous…

I would just hope that they wouldn’t assign any lofty idealistic motivations, when it’s really just about that.

193. Basement Blogger - October 27, 2010

Canon? Forget about it. Remember this is Abrams’ Timeline not Roddenberry’s Timeline. Yes, I know the new Trek is an alternate universe. But Abrams Timeline has already destroyed Vulcan and killed Amanda, Spock’s mother. So, you could have Saviik be born earlier. That being said remember that Vulcans live longer so she could have been an older cadet during ST II. I vote for Saavik. How about a romance between Kirk and Saavik? Um, she could mature him with some Vulcan logic.

Oh, by the way I suggested that Olivia Wilde be cast as Saavik some time ago. The logic being she’s in “Cowboys and Aliens” currently being produced by Robert Orci. I posted an ACLU poster featuring her and I’ll post it again. Check it out and the photo with Huffington Post article. Try putting some Vulcan ears on her. Stunning.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/13/olivia-wilde-gets-the-she_n_715238.html

194. dmduncan - October 27, 2010

187: “I don’t think you’re being racist,”

Thanks for the vote of confidence. But I’ll have myself tested next week just to be sure.

“Your proposals for her amount to her being shuffled out of the way of the BIG TRINITY, lest her evil lady romancin’ will MOST DEFINITELY DESTROY!!!

“And dude, as much you hate to hear it, that is a profoundly sexist POV.”

You know, there are certain words that when they are used, they shut down the conversation. When you call somebody a racist. When you call somebody a Nazi. When you call somebody a sexist. You shouldn’t use those words unless you have an airtight case that you are correct in applying them. Because how does a person respond?? Hmm?? You label somebody that without any evidence to back up your claim, and it sticks, and then you have to prove that you are not. I wish you hadn’t done that.

So, instead of answering the points I made, you just MOCKED them. In CAPS. What you feel is important. What I feel is not. Got it.

But how is what I want different from what YOU want? You want to see her made into a major character because she represents YOU. You don’t care about the philosophical meaning of what K/S/M represents. You scorn it. It means nothing to you. All YOU see are 3 white guys who have you locked out of the circle. You don’t even see a greenblooded guy, as I do. But my argument, which you persist in getting wrong, is that K/S/M are NOT MERELY “men.” They are that, but more importantly they are symbolic of something that has no color and no sex, while ALL you see are color AND sex. What does that make you?

And if I don’t agree with you, you call me SEXIST!!! I HAVE to share YOUR opinion on Star Trek — STAR TREK, NOT every show in which women appear, but STAR TREK IN PARTICULAR — and woe be unto me if I do not for gingerly shall pronounce me discriminator against ALL women. And he shall be made to wander about the blogosphere with the word SEXIST….

Because I DARE to disagree that the character of Uhura is less important to what Star Trek means — historically and factually a second tier character along with Sulu (oh NOW he hates ASIANS too!) and Chekov (Oh you probably think he’s a COMMIE, don’t you?) — than the idea expressed by K/S/M which is colorless and sexless, then I MUST hold animus toward all women in general and to Uhura in particular. Why stop there? At this point you might as well say it’s because she’s black too!

gingerly, you are cutting the baloney so thick, it’s not even practical to make sandwiches out of it.

189: “The only reason you want to see Gugu with a white guy, is because she’s hot.”

Yes, she’s hot. But I’m not interested in sexual thrills on TV. Bo-ring. Did you NOT read what I wrote about Tripp and T’Pol?

189: “BTW, both actors were cast in a colorblind process, which is a standard in England, but not in the U.S.”

My turn: Oh please.

What does “colorblind” mean? They pull names out of a hat and then guarantee the winners the roles they picked for?

Or does somebody have to…o…k…the choices?

“Funny, how that never gets implied about the many, many, all-white shows. :-/”

Cause it’s not unintentional, that’s why. It’s not coincidence that you see more white faces on TV than any other. Nor is it a conspiracy. The dynamic is much more subtle than that.

195. gingerly - October 28, 2010

@194

Dude, if you don’t want to be considered something, then stop fitting the damn label so well, all the while shrieking I AM NOT!!!1!!

Seriously, look up the definition of sexist behavior and that’s pretty much what you’ve done.

That said, let me break this down:

I said, all you care about are the three main white guys, with which you rebuff by writing…*more paragraphs* exclusively about the three white guys that you only care about, while angrily claiming so you don’t care about second-tier characters…

So what??!!

So…

That’s my point.

Thanks for proving it. :)

189: “The only reason you want to see Gugu with a white guy, is because she’s hot.”

Yes, she’s hot. But I’m not interested in sexual thrills on TV. Bo-ring. Did you NOT read what I wrote about Tripp and T’Pol?

Yup, and I also found it predictable that you went with the Gugu with a white guy angle instead of Boris with a white woman.

Funny that. :)

What does “colorblind” mean?

*sigh*

Well for casting, specifically which is what I was talking about…

You’re on the internet. Google it.

Check the tone of your reply. The fellow doth protest too much. :)

Have a nice night, dmduncan, you hopelessly clueless fanboy.

196. gingerly - October 28, 2010

@195

I have to add that it is typical that you are more outraged at being labeled a “whatever-ist” than at the possibility of whatever-“ism” is being perpetrated, by you or by the many fans saying sketchy things about Uhura’s “aggression”.

That has been my experience and why you basically can’t call a person that in a discussion.

Because then, is in this case, the bigger crime becomes naming it.

197. MJ - October 28, 2010

dmduncan, maybe you’d be better off getting back to your Bring Fat Shat Back set of arguments. LOL

198. dmduncan - October 28, 2010

First things first.

After thinking about it some more, I realized you aren’t even right about Zoe/Wash.

Wash was a serious character who was smart, decent, sensitive, heroic, and witty. He certainly was no more comical that Mal, your hunk of choice, who was the lead of the show. So your only complaint about Zoe/Wash boils down to that you think the woman you identify with most wasn’t paired with the most handsome guy on the boat!

Poor you.

Sounds more like a complaint you should take up with casting.

I think that show was perfect as it was and I wouldn’t change a thing about it, including who got paired with whom, and who was cast as whom.

I DISAGREE with you that the ONLY way to expand Uhura’s role is through her relationship with Spock.

I DISAGREE with you that Uhura is relegated to minor-character status if she doesn’t have that relationship.

What I hear you saying is that Uhura’s importance is measured by her relationship to Spock. But if I suggested that Uhura’s importance is calculated by her relationship to the importance of a male character, I would be called a sexist. But it’s okay for you to make that same bad argument ad nauseum?

And what does that mean for Sulu and Chekov? By extending that same logic to them, I suppose that they ALSO need a relationship with Spock to raise their own importance. So the transporter pad and turbolift are Uhura’s. That leaves the Jefferies tube and the bowels of Engineeering no pun intended for Sulu and Chekov.

199. dmduncan - October 28, 2010

195: “Dude, if you don’t want to be considered something, then stop fitting the damn label so well, all the while shrieking I AM NOT!!!1!!”

“Seriously, look up the definition of sexist behavior and that’s pretty much what you’ve done.”

1. gingerly, yeah, when you always carry a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Except in your case we should probably replace hammer with label machine

2. Easy to claim, which is just about all you do, much harder to prove. Plenty of words up there. Point out the ones you think are evidence of sexism and I will respond.

***

“I said, all you care about are the three main white guys, with which you rebuff by writing…*more paragraphs* exclusively about the three white guys that you only care about, while angrily claiming so you don’t care about second-tier characters…

So what??!!

So…

That’s my point.

Thanks for proving it. :)”

You still don’t get it. Of all that I wrote, the only thing you took away was “three white guys.”

Here’s me: “All YOU see are 3 white guys who have you locked out of the circle. You don’t even see a greenblooded guy, as I do. But my argument, which you persist in getting wrong, is that K/S/M are NOT MERELY “men.” They are that, but more importantly they are symbolic of something that has no color and no sex, while ALL you see are color AND sex. What does that make you?”

Here’s you: “I said, all you care about are the three main white guys, with which you rebuff by writing…*more paragraphs* exclusively about the three white guys”

The races and sex were established by Gene Roddenberry, not DMDuncan, as was the meaning of the relationships between them. Bob isn’t going to change the races and sexes of those three characters. So while we are stuck with those historical choices — they are IRRELEVANT with respect to the IDEA that each of those characters represents. They might as well be ALL women and the ideas involved wouldn’t change because the IDEA is sexless and raceless.

Also, thanks for proving MY point. You don’t even see Spock as a Vulcan. He’s a “white guy” played by Leonard Nimoy! More importantly, you don’t seem to understand that movies ARE symbols. That’s not really Chris Pine up on the screen. Those are images of Chris Pine, and those images are representations. And representation is idea, and the idea you seem to care about most involves coordinating Uhura’s importance by her relationship with Spock.

“while angrily claiming so you don’t care about second-tier characters…”

LOL! Guilty as charged on the anger thing. I was ready to go to bed and then I see you took some cheap shots you can’t defend and STILL won’t be able to the next time I peruse this thread to respond to whatever baloney you post next.

“Yup, and I also found it predictable that you went with the Gugu with a white guy angle instead of Boris with a white woman.”

Perhaps you missed the thread where I opined that Idris Elba looked more the part?

“Check the tone of your reply. The fellow doth protest too much. :)”

Yawn. Cliche that avoids any real necessity to make a case on your part, and attempts to shift suspicion to the opponent to spare oneself. So easy. Will be protesting even more in the future.

But am enjoying the names. So far I am:

1. Sexist.
2. Hopelessly clueless fanboy
3. ?

Can’t wait for 3. I’m going to keep track of them with you from now on. I get a tingle every time you respond to my arguments with a new name for me. When you are finished, may make a new screen name stitched together out of all the nice things you call me.

197. MJ – October 28, 2010

She’s name-calling. Why on earth would I run from THAT?

200. Harry Ballz - October 28, 2010

200 posts?? Much ado about nothing? Nah! :>)

201. MJ - October 28, 2010

@199 “She’s name-calling. Why on earth would I run from THAT?”

As much as I agree with her on THIS issue, she has name-called me on other article postings where we did not agree, so I feel your pain.

202. dmduncan - October 28, 2010

201. MJ – October 28, 2010

Franchise is in Bob’s hands. Made the best case I could. But ultimate choice will be Bob’s based on power of his own feeling, not my arguments.

If Bob decides to strengthen S/U in some way that is as irrevocable as destruction of Vulcan, I will not be in here day after complaining. Will not like it, most likely, but will not give Bob hard time because he did not see things my way. Will simply avoid discussion of what I know I cannot change and will not say two bad words to Bob about it.

I hope at least one person on the other side of this issue can make the same pledge if it doesn’t go their way.

203. fallynleaf - October 28, 2010

#165 @gingerly

I do not think that Uhura’s race makes any difference to how her relationship with Spock is presented in STXI.

Why? Because Star Trek supposedly takes place in the twenty-third century when we’ve gotten beyond racism, when the color of one’s skin is simply another aspect of one’s appearance, not any more or less important than hair or eye color. Actors and actresses of many races (as well as the alien ones) are presented in Star Trek in a variety of different roles with a range of motives. Star Trek was incredibly progressive for the times and that is partially because Gene Roddenberry designed Star Trek to be morality tales hidden beneath the layer of science fiction. He used alien cultures and people as metaphors and allegories for things happening on our own earth today.

And so I’ll bring this back to STXI.

Uhura’s inclusion as a character is a given in a reboot of TOS. She is as every bit necessary as Sulu, or even McCoy, and has one of the most iconic faces in the history of Star Trek. In TOS, she had value as an individual. She was Uhura, a highly skilled communications officer. She was integral to the balance of the main crew because of her job, her personality, her trustworthiness, and her bravery. Yes, she is a black woman, but she is never treated any differently because of it. The treatment of Uhura in STXI (and TOS) is exactly the same as if she’d been a white woman.

And there the problem lies: the treatment of women /in general/ in Star Trek.

Yes, the series was very progressive for the 60’s regarding women. There were plenty of areas where it was anti-feminist by today’s standards, but keep in mind that Star Trek was created in an era where women in important positions in the military was very radical. Yes, women in TOS were often yeomen and mainly did secretarial jobs, but they were still important, contributing members of the Federation. This was incredibly progressive.

What would toady’s equivalent be? A main cast with a central trio of females in a high-budget science fiction action series? Or at the very least, a movie where the female characters are treated as true equals to the male characters.

I’m going to go as far as to say that I believe that STXI is actually less progressive than TOS regarding the roles of women. STXI got rid of one essential TOS female cast member, Janice Rand, and all that’s left of another, Christine Chapel, is a single mention of her name. Yes, we get a new female character, Gaila, but her value was only her sex appeal and apparently Kirk was only sleeping with her so that he could cheat on the Kobayashi Maru. She was important not because of who she was as a character, but in how she was used by a man.

And then there was the fridging of Amanda. “Fridging” is when a character, almost always female, is killed simply to give the (male) protagonist a reason for revenge, emotional conflict, or to invoke the audience’s sympathy with him. We never so much as learn that Spock’s mother was named Amanda. All she was to the story was a way to “emotionally compromise” Spock further. Her value as a character is nothing except to the members of the audience who knew Amanda from TOS and actually knew her personality, what she was like as an individual.

Returning to the treatment of Uhura in STXI /as a woman/, her value lies only in what she means to a man, just like Gaila and Amanda. This conversation is proof of that. Uhura’s greatest contribution to the story is as a love interest of Spock. She isn’t given a fencing scene, or a large shining moment of glory like the other (male) cast members. Instead, she gets to kiss Spock. Now, if this were the 60’s, that’d be a big deal and quite worthy of the controversy-loving Star Trek. But this is 2010. Movies have already gone there, and though interracial relationships could maybe have some more recognition, there isn’t anything exceptionally progressive in giving a main protagonist an exotic love interest.

I’ll point you toward something called The Bechdel Test: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBechdelTest

It doesn’t measure how feminist something is, rather it shows in a blunt, realistic way the manner of which women are treated in Hollywood. A woman is valued only so far as her relationship with a man.

Gaila, Amanda, Uhura, even Winona Kirk, the only women worth noting in STXI, all contribute primarily to the story by supporting a man (in Winona’s case, fathering Kirk at the very beginning before disappearing for the remainder of the movie).

At least Uhura in TOS was allowed to be her own person and is treated as an individual. I greatly respect how far we’ve progressed as to actors/actresses of color and interracial relationships, but I don’t think that Uhura’s skin color is a major factor in any sort of reboot franchise’s portrayal of the character because that’s how Uhura’s always been. The people behind STXI and its coming sequel don’t interpret her character by her skin color, no, far from it. They treat her like a woman. But, it is that very treatment that needs to be fixed, as evidenced by the other women, green, white or black, that make up the world of STXI.

204. Aurore - October 28, 2010

I hope for an excellent sequel.
If “it doesn’t go” my way. I won’t be mad at you Roberto(Orci).

205. MJ - October 28, 2010

@203 “At least Uhura in TOS was allowed to be her own person and is treated as an individual”

Hmm??? Did we really get to know Uhura much as an individual in TOS? I learned much more about her in the ST novels after TOS. I think it is a poor attempt at re-inventing history here to claim that TOS was an ensemble piece like TNG. It wasn’t. It was K/S/M + 1/2 Scotty.

206. MJ - October 28, 2010

@202 and @204

I agree to dmduncan’s pledge.

Very much looking forward to the next film, Bob. I trust you!

207. fallynleaf - October 28, 2010

#205

Yes, we did.

We know that she liked music and singing. She had a sense of humor, and she was very talented at her job. She was also a good actor, and could sacrifice her own personal comfort for the good of the ship (“Mirror, Mirror” and her use of partial seduction to distract of Mirror!Sulu as well as her role in STIII in helping steal the Enterprise, and her importance in STIV and STV as part of the main crew’s plans).

Maybe her character wasn’t as well developed as Kirk’s, Spock’s, or McCoy’s, but she was very much her own person and valued for far more than her relation to a man.

208. Brian K - October 28, 2010

And why is Spock Prime left out of this? Maybe T’Pring likes the sugar daddy type………

Seriously folks, is this what the next year and a half is going to be like on these boards?……… YES!!! That’s why we love it!

I really love the idea of T’Pau instead. With Spock Prime, the matriarch and patriarch of New Vulcan. My wishlist: Judi Dench, Helen Mirren, Glenn Close, in that order.

209. Aurore - October 28, 2010

208
I am stealing your list.
But, for me, it will be: Helen Mirren,Judi Dench,Glenn Close.

210. MJ - October 28, 2010

@207. See, you had to go to using THE MOVIES examples to make your point.

211. CarlG - October 28, 2010

@203: I think the only reason Uhura fails the Bechdel Test is that the TOS cast is extremely male-heavy and you can’t really do much about that without gender-flipping at least one of the main characters (and wouldn’t the TOS uber-purists have a fit, hoo boy!).

A point in her favour is that she decodes the Klingon transmissions that identify their attacker as Nero — yes, it does support Kirk, but it’s more to help the entire crew of the Enterprise (by, y’know, making sure they don’t get blown up? :) ).

Another thing — remember that scene in STVI, where Commander Uhura, linguist extraordinaire and veteran communications officer, didn’t know how to speak Klingon? You know, the language of one of the galactic superpowers?!!!
I thought that scene was more offensive to Uhura’s character than ST09 making her a love interest. Thoughts?

212. Aurore - October 28, 2010

Thoughts?
I think I love you.

213. Aurore - October 28, 2010

And,I hope you don’t feel “weakened” in any way by my love.

214. CarlG - October 28, 2010

@213: Not at all! But just out of curiosity, what prompted it? Something I posted, or just a random declaration of amour? :)

215. meme - October 28, 2010

I never thought of T’pring they got Uhura messing with a married man that is just sick I think it is somewhat racist why could they not put her with Kirk i think it is a stigma still against black women with white men how many people out there would have got mad at that just like the history of star trek Gene roddenberry had to give her character that name so people would not think she was black look up the history that’s why the first interacial kiss on Tv with Shatner and Nichols was a big deal at the time It was a Big deal because it was around the time Dr. Martin Luther King Jr got gunned down I don’t think they should have put Uhura with Spock they should have put her with Kirk for that very reason because of the racism that still exist today against BW being with WM OH NO they had to give the sister a space alien

216. fallynleaf - October 28, 2010

#210

Why could I not use the movies for examples? TOS Uhura is in them, after all. And some of the best character building for all of the main cast occurs in the movies.

#211

Possibly, but as I pointed out, STXI had the option of at least two more female characters (Rand and Chapel), but they weren’t included (Chapel’s name was mentioned ONCE). And not to mention STXI killed off one of the only female characters it had (Amanda) for no reason other than to further “emotionally compromise” Spock.

And yes, Uhura decodes the transmissions, but she doesn’t get any huge, dramatic moment in addition to it like Sulu and Chekov both did. Her big moment was kissing Spock.

The main theme of STVI was to present an allegory of prejudice and then the overcoming of it. Uhura not knowing Klingon is a great example of how the Federation viewed Kingons. It was not about what she could and couldn’t do at all.

And I don’t think it’s offensive to Uhura’s character to make her a love interest. I thought her relationship with Scotty in STV was done very well and enhanced both of their characters. But that’s because Uhura retained her individuality and her personality with that relationship, and it didn’t define her character as being only important because of a man.

217. MJ - October 28, 2010

@216 “The main theme of STVI was to present an allegory of prejudice and then the overcoming of it.”

Huh? the main theme of STVI was to present an allegory on the Cold War between the U.S. and USSR as the Cold War turned into the Fall of the Berlin Wall and USSR. It is meant to show that enemies can work together in peace if they can stop the extremists on both sides from keeping the war cycle and fear going on forever.

Uhura not knowing Klingon was a dumb idea in an otherwise pretty decent screenplay by Meyer’s and Flinn. Any good communications office in that era of Starfleet would of course know Klingon, just as any good communications officer in the Cold War would know Russian.

218. CarlG - October 28, 2010

@216: Fair points — much obliged for the clarifications. I guess we’ll just have to see how she develops in the next movie, eh?

That scene from VI still bugs me incredibly, though. It wasn’t about the Federation attitude towards Klingons, it was about Uhura being inexcusably bad at her job. It’s struck me as something like working as a translator for the UN, and not bothering to learn Chinese, cause, hey, when did they ever have any impact on geopolitical affairs, right ? *facepalm*

I hope that they don’t end up turning Uhura into a bog-standard “Action Grrrrl!”, though. I hate it when writers think “strong woman” means “unlikeable emotionless b*tch”. There’s no reason a woman character can’t be badass, smart, and independent, and at the same time likeable and empathetic, you know?

219. MJ - October 28, 2010

@218 “That scene from VI still bugs me incredibly, though. It wasn’t about the Federation attitude towards Klingons, it was about Uhura being inexcusably bad at her job. It’s struck me as something like working as a translator for the UN, and not bothering to learn Chinese, cause, hey, when did they ever have any impact on geopolitical affairs, right ? *facepalm*”

Exactly. Please see my post above in 217. That was just a bonehead thing in the screenplay. It did not work and was not credible whatsoever. Of course Uhura knew Klingon — give me a break. Nick Meyer did a disservice to her character and I choose to ignore this as a brainfart by him and Flinn in the screenplay.

220. dmduncan - October 28, 2010

215. meme – October 28, 2010

Longest sentence I’ve ever read.

217. MJ – October 28, 2010

TUC is my fave but Uhura with her books open was as bad as anything in TFF.

221. gingerly - October 28, 2010

@198. dmduncan – October 28, 2010

First things first.

After thinking about it some more, I realized you aren’t even right about Zoe/Wash.

Wash was a serious character who was smart, decent, sensitive, heroic, and witty. He certainly was no more comical that Mal, your hunk of choice, who was the lead of the show. So your only complaint about Zoe/Wash boils down to that you think the woman you identify with most wasn’t paired with the most handsome guy on the boat!

Nope. Not it at all. Zoe is a “strong black woman”. I’m not upset by how character was paired, in fact my eyes nearly popped out of my skull when I realized that she was *gasp!* actually married…

Like a real honest-to-beans woman, with working female parts and a heart. Her pairing however, was predictable as black women are typically either paired beneath them or temporarily, if at all.

Single and background is what is most common.

What I was suggesting is that is she had been paired with Mal, many fans of the show’s heads would’ve exploded. They would have been just as disgusted as they are about Spock/Uhura.

I’ll leave it to you to make hurdles over why.

I DISAGREE with you that the ONLY way to expand Uhura’s role is through her relationship with Spock

Never said that. Only that her pairing doesn’t take away from her character (or Spock’s). There’s no reason why she can’t both have an awesome relationship AND be a kick-ass communications officer.

You seem to be suggesting that it’s either/or situation.

I don’t see why such an awesome character shouldn’t have it all.

I DISAGREE with you that Uhura is relegated to minor-character status if she doesn’t have that relationship.

Never said that either. What I suggest is that her not being in a relationship, would be in keeping with a troubling pattern with how Hollywood typically treats black female characters.

What I hear you saying is that Uhura’s importance is measured by her relationship to Spock.

Then you’re not hearing me. I’m saying her relationship to Spock does not downgrade her or Spock’s character. I’m saying it’s nice to see a black female be paired off with a lead who’s not a 50 year-old racist and *gasp!* actually treats her like an lady instead of a woman he’s afraid of, like Wash sometimes did Zoe.

Haha, because black women are so “strong” they’re “scary!”.

Get it?

But if I suggested that Uhura’s importance is calculated by her relationship to the importance of a male character, I would be called a sexist. But it’s okay for you to make that same bad argument ad nauseum?

You wouldn’t be called sexist for that. You were called sexist because suggested that her relationship status with Spock diminishes the Trinity.

Which is basically saying, she’s getting her icky girl cooties all in the way these three guys I like! and that will happen because it’s romance! with a girl!

*eww!*

Maybe I should have said you sound like a 13 year-old nailing up a “No Girls Allowed!” sign for your clubhouse.

And what does that mean for Sulu and Chekov? By extending that same logic to them, I suppose that they ALSO need a relationship with Spock to raise their own importance. So the transporter pad and turbolift are Uhura’s. That leaves the Jefferies tube and the bowels of Engineeering no pun intended for Sulu and Chekov.

*eyes glazing over from the wild no-sense-making conclusion-jumping*

…Now I gotta answer fally

222. gingerly - October 28, 2010

@fallynleaf

In TOS, she had value as an individual. She was Uhura, a highly skilled communications officer. She was integral to the balance of the main crew because of her job, her personality, her trustworthiness, and her bravery. Yes, she is a black woman, but she is never treated any differently because of it. The treatment of Uhura in STXI (and TOS) is exactly the same as if she’d been a white woman.

You didn’t read that link did you?

*sigh*

Please read the link. And while you’re at it, if you can find it, read her autobiography.

She wasn’t treated the same as if she were a white woman. In fact, Nichelle Nichols almost left the show because of this.

Yeoman Rand had more male attention in her few episodes on the show, than Uhura did in her entire time there.

Which isn’t hard, because that’s exactly ZERO.

Her infamous interracial kiss?

Was the result of non-consensual mind-control, as in someone had to force someone to kiss her.

As for this?

And I don’t think it’s offensive to Uhura’s character to make her a love interest. I thought her relationship with Scotty in STV was done very well and enhanced both of their characters.

Once again, nobody choose to be with her. Sybok had to force it. And of course, it was dropped after the film.

You continue to apply white female privilege standards to a character who doesn’t have it….who never had that until ST XI.

This romantic development sadly only made people think in ways the TOS producers thought they were avoiding by keeping her single and with as little to do as possible.

And yet, fans continually praise this TOS Uhura as a good thing. She didn’t shine because the show did so much for her. She shined because Nichelle Nichols did so much with few scraps they gave her.

She put everything she had in that little bit she was given.

She’s a black woman. The fact that a leading popular character, in a mainstream film wants this black woman is still rare for us.

Do you understand?

Will you please stop assigning racist decisions with positive motivations and outcomes?

223. gingerly - October 29, 2010

@218

I hate it when writers think “strong woman” means “unlikeable emotionless b*tch”. There’s no reason a woman character can’t be badass, smart, and independent, and at the same time likeable and empathetic, you know?

I so agree with this.

Bob,

PLEASE, for love of all that’s good and holy, please put more female characters in the sequel.

Maybe some fangirls resent the fact that the only female they have to focus on here is Uhura (and nobody wants the black barbies).

Which is funny considering all the many, many, films where there is only one female (Princess Leia is a good example) and nobody had any problems with her getting the guy and being kickass.

224. Aurore - October 29, 2010

214

One look at your post (211) was all it took…

225. gingerly - October 29, 2010

@202. dmduncan – October 28, 2010

201. MJ – October 28, 2010

Franchise is in Bob’s hands. Made the best case I could. But ultimate choice will be Bob’s based on power of his own feeling, not my arguments.

If Bob decides to strengthen S/U in some way that is as irrevocable as destruction of Vulcan, I will not be in here day after complaining. Will not like it, most likely, but will not give Bob hard time because he did not see things my way. Will simply avoid discussion of what I know I cannot change and will not say two bad words to Bob about it.

I hope at least one person on the other side of this issue can make the same pledge if it doesn’t go their way.

A shame you couldn’t address me directly, but I don’t find it particularly soapbox-worthy to voice acceptance of a thing that shouldn’t offend you, in the first place.

As for what Orci and Co. do, I’ve already said what I expect. I’ve been in this hopeful place many times before.

If a S/U break-up happens, far more fans will be relieved than fans disappointed, I’d wager. Seeing Spock kiss Uhura angers and disgusts too many people. I can’t blame them for writing to gain audiences. Seeing this reaction? I totally understand.

You said to me once. “You are not invisible.”

Nope, not quite…. Almost though. :)

I literally cannot name any up-and-coming young black female leads other than Zoe Saldana (who’s been up-and-coming for a long time) and Gabourey Sidibe (and I’ll eat my hat if Hollywood gives her any role that’s not stereotypical).

Not invisible. Almost though..and limited by certain standards that white characters don’t have, lest she make people too uncomfortable by intruding in places she doesn’t belong.

I can’t say I won’t be disappointed, but at least in my case, I’ll have had a lot more practice dealing with it than you have. It’s typical for me. I already know what it’s like to grow-up as a little black girl fangirling for Leia and Chani and Buttercup and all the other awesome white females who get to lead, be strong and get the guy, only to have the white fangirls be grossed-out, dismissive, suddenly feminist and begging for more white female characters, when a black girl finally gets her turn.

I know what it’s like to get behind that rare one black girl in the back of the ensemble and speak up about how she would look terrific with the hot leading guy, only to get laughed at for that ridiculous suggestion.

I already know what it is to swallow that and hope that eventually black female characters will get treated as equally beautiful, desirable, and deserving of a pedestal as all the awesome white female characters I see, in a big mainstream Hollywood movie aimed at everyone, that doesn’t have the caveat of being a “black people’s movie”.

I know what it’s like to google black princess and get literally zero results except for white princesses in a black dresses, until that Disney movie was finally made in 2009, and so now there’s that one.

I know what it is, because I’ve been doing what suggest for a long time, dmdduncan.

I don’t need to take a stand to state as much.

226. MJ - October 29, 2010

@221 “What I was suggesting is that is she had been paired with Mal, many fans of the show’s heads would’ve exploded. They would have been just as disgusted as they are about Spock/Uhura….I’ll leave it to you to make hurdles over why.”

I doub’t it. This is Firefly for crying out loud, a niche show that appeals to nerd sf fans. Black woman paired with Captain would be have been a boring no big deal on this show.

If you had pointed out a more mainstream show example, I might somewhat buy off on your argument.. Still though, you seem to be a little bit behind where society is today. The people I and my kids hang out with are pretty much race-blind today. But then again, I live in CA., not Georgia.

227. dmduncan - October 29, 2010

221: “What I was suggesting is that is she had been paired with Mal, many fans of the show’s heads would’ve exploded. They would have been just as disgusted as they are about Spock/Uhura.”

I’m not “many fans” though. I’m dmduncan. A fan. And I make a very specific series of arguments. Don’t lump me in with everyone else. I never said Uhura was being “aggressive.” Word never even popped into my mind. Respond to my individual arguments and reasons. Because Zoe and Mal doesn’t make MY head explode.

“Never said that. Only that her pairing doesn’t take away from her character…”

Agreed.

“(or Spock’s). “

Disagree. It takes away from Spock’s character the idea I’ve been speaking about, specifically by making him less distinguishable from the humans around him. Pointy ears and a bowl cut do not a meaningful difference make. It’s Spock’s detached logical personality which projects that idea he represents which is erased by displays such as we saw if he persists in making them. If you permanently alter the character that way vs. temporarily for particular plot reasons, then he’s no longer distinguishable. He’s a Romulan. Or a pointy eared human. He’s not Mal, he’s not Kirk. And the issue isn’t a black woman being with Spock. Not for me it isn’t.

“There’s no reason why she can’t both have an awesome relationship AND be a kick-ass communications officer.”

She can do both, but Spock is not the best choice for all the reasons I have been giving.

“You seem to be suggesting that it’s either/or situation.”

Nope.

“You wouldn’t be called sexist for that. You were called sexist because suggested that her relationship status with Spock diminishes the Trinity.”

No. There are two “trinities” here. The first one is a realistic relationship that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy have to each other, which is a matter of historical fact. That’s how it was on TOS and for 6 movies They were the big three. Followed by Scotty, with Uhura, Sulu, and Chekov making up the lower tier of characters.

You can mess with that all you want. You can increase any of their roles. There’s room for everybody in that family. Uhura is a meaningful member of it.

But then there’s a separate “trinity.” This is a representation of three IDEAS. Those ideas have no race or sex. You can represent those three ideas with any combination of races and sexes and the result will be the same. It just so happens that as a matter of historical fact those ideas were represented by two white characters and one green blooded character. But in an alternate universe, they might be ALL black. Or ALL women. Or all BLACK women. And the same thing that I am saying about K/S/M would apply to any of those alternative Star Trek arrangements as well.

I can’t change what it is, or change what I’m saying about it because you think it’s about sexual discrimination when it isn’t.

And the truth is that with that SECOND trinity, a PERMANENT (I don’t use caps to shout; if I knew how to selectively italicize I would use that form of emphasis instead)…a PERMANENT relationship with Spock alters the relationship of those ideas to each other.

“Which is basically saying, she’s getting her icky girl cooties all in the way these three guys I like! and that will happen because it’s romance! with a girl!”

Oh but I also expressed that I would’ve liked to see Kirk get Uhura instead! More than once on this site. He’s ALSO a part of that “trinity.” In fact, he’s the MAIN part of it. He’s the character in whom logic and emotion are in balance, unlike in Spock and McCoy whom we both probably sound like right now.

And because of the idea that Kirk represents, he’s an appropriate character to explore that with while keeping the ideas of what each character represents intact. So this he-man-woman-haters club you’ve imagined is just that: Imaginary. Now if I’d said Uhura shouldn’t have a relationship with ANY of those three, your criticism that I’m protecting a boy’s club would have some merit.

But I’ve even suggested, also more than once, that McCoy should’ve been paired with Uhura, since he has historically gotten even LESS lovin that Spock. That would’ve made even more sense. See? More stunning evidence that my complaint is with her pairing specifically with Spock, and not maliciously aimed to keep her out of the loop with any of the others in the “trinity” because I’m a vewy baad man.

In fact, I think McCoy makes the most sense of all, given what HIS character represents in that second “trinity.”

“*eyes glazing over from the wild no-sense-making conclusion-jumping*”

Yes. That was a joke.

228. dmduncan - October 29, 2010

225: “A shame you couldn’t address me directly, but I don’t find it particularly soapbox-worthy to voice acceptance of a thing that shouldn’t offend you, in the first place.”

I’m addressing everyone reading this who posts, or only occasionally does, and who feels the same as you do. You are not the only one who wants what you do. Not afraid to address you directly about anything.

“Nope, not quite…. Almost though. :)”

Look at the number of words I’ve devoted to answering you!

“I can’t say I won’t be disappointed, but at least in my case, I’ll have had a lot more practice dealing with it than you have. It’s typical for me. I already know what it’s like to grow-up as a little black girl fangirling for Leia and Chani and Buttercup and all the other awesome white females who get to lead, be strong and get the guy, only to have the white fangirls be grossed-out, dismissive, suddenly feminist and begging for more white female characters, when a black girl finally gets her turn.”

Eloquent, and I know that what you say is true.

I’m only saying that even though your first reaction may be to think I’m doing the same thing — because it’s happened so much in your experience, and that it’s understandable to me why you have that reaction — I really am not, and I’m self aware enough to know that I’m telling you the truth about it here.

People who do that kind of thing, they are not terribly self aware. I believe if they were, if they could see themselves the way other people did, they would be shocked by what they saw. But “know thyself” is not high on their list of things to do.

229. fallynleaf - October 29, 2010

#222 gingerly

Yes, I read the article. But it was irrelevant to my point, so I didn’t mention it.

Why do you call me racist? I’m arguing that Uhura’s character (as a woman) was given the traditional female Hollywood treatment (where her prime importance is only what she is to a man) and that it disrespected the character whether she was white or black.

You make all these assumptions about me, but how do you know that I don’t have black skin? If I told you that I’m a member of a group protesting the unfair treatment of ethnic actors in Hollywood, called Racebending, and that I have chosen to boycott a movie that had the casting call of “Caucasian or any other ethnicity” and then attempted to convince all of my friends to do the same? Actually, I do know what the situation is like in Hollywood. I witnessed one of my favorite TV shows, Avatar: The Last Airbender, with three main characters (one Asian, the other two Inuit) be whitewashed in the movie adaption. I know how hard it is for an actor or an actress with a different ethnicity other than “default” Caucasian to survive in Hollywood.

I don’t think that STXI is in any danger of that, however. It’s Star Trek, for one, and Star Trek has always had immense cast diversity.

But, please remember that this is a reboot of TOS. Uhura in TOS was an important character, but she was not Kirk or Spock, and TOS has always been the Kirk and Spock Show. STXI must work with material already in the TOS world. This means that as long as Star Trek is featuring the original cast, it’s going to be about Kirk and Spock. This isn’t because anyone producing STXI is racist, or against Uhura’s character, it’s because they are trying to stay true to the original material, which was a product of the 60’s. It does mean that Uhura and other cast members can still be treated /better/ then they are now.

And about Rand…

Rand is a completely different case. She may attract more men then Uhura, yes, but who does she get? Charlie, evil!Kirk… and they all want her for her body. We’re supposed to believe that she’s exceptionally beautiful, and is a sex object. I know that I personally don’t want this to happen to Uhura.

You said that Uhura got zero male attention in TOS?

WRONG.

And I’m not just talking about Scotty, either.

Don’t you remember the episode “Mirror, Mirror”, in which Uhura, Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and Scotty end up in a parallel universe where the entire crew of the Enterprise (including their counterparts) is evil? Uhura goes to the bridge, sits in her usual chair, and is immediately confronted with mirror!Sulu, who starts to hit on her! Later, Uhura uses this to her advantage, walks over to Sulu, and gets his attention by pretending like his desire is reciprocated, distracting him from his job so that the others (Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Scotty) can work on finding a way back to the good Enterprise.

And this wasn’t just a black woman partially seducing a man who is another race, THIS WAS THE 60’S!

It was later than the sixties, but there was also that time Uhura danced and sang naked on top of that hill in STV. If she wasn’t getting male attraction then, then what is male attraction? Face mashing and scenes with nudity?

Besides, Sybok didn’t force Uhura to be with Scotty, what gave you that idea? Maybe their romance wasn’t directly in your face, but it was obvious that they were together nonetheless.

230. MJ - October 29, 2010

@229. to Gingerly — “Why do you call me racist? I’m arguing that Uhura’s character (as a woman) was given the traditional female Hollywood treatment (where her prime importance is only what she is to a man) and that it disrespected the character whether she was white or black.”

Gingerly, a word of advice from someone who has lived a lot of years and hopefully gained some wisdom. Your arguments would be more powerful I think if you stopped your incessant name calling and labeling of people. By playing the racist and sexism card all the time, you kind of go down the same path that the racists and sexists go down by unfairly prejudicing people who you don’t even know.

231. dmduncan - October 30, 2010

So much about who you are doesn’t translate in these forums, and it’s easy to fill in the details about people incorrectly, which means it’s easy for misunderstandings to occur.

I think that when gingerly writes about her personal experiences, she does so very well, and she has something important to say with them.

232. MJ - October 31, 2010

231 — WELL PUT!!!

233. gingerly - November 2, 2010

It’s a shame this site subscribes to the belief that censoring the people who raise these valid issues will make the actual issue go away.

I stand by the fact that many of reasons people have problems with Spock/Uhura are racist/sexist as all get out.

I stand by the fact that many of these people would not have a single problem if Chapel were in Uhura’s place.

I stand by the fact that many people who find Uhura TOS a much more palatable character is because that version “knew her place.”

I stand by the fact that many people say and do racist/sexist things because they don’t know that they are doing racist/sexist things and that censoring open dialogue about these topics perpetuates it’s continuance.

The reduction of these issues to “cards” is incredibly hurtful and insulting to the person who really isn’t trying to play bridge, but honestly relating genuine pain.

It’s no coincidence that since the development of Spock/Uhura, Nichelle Nichols continually gets asked what effectively amounts to “*Your* Uhura would never and Spock never gave any signs that he would ever go for you, lol, am I right?”.

You can check youtube and startrek.com for these questions.

Backhanded “compliment” if I ever heard one.

I’m sure you’ll delete this too, but whatever. I’m not going anywhere.

234. gingerly - November 2, 2010

Not invisible. Almost though..and limited by certain standards that white characters don’t have, lest she make people too uncomfortable by intruding in places she doesn’t belong.</i

Proven true, even here.

235. gingerly - November 2, 2010

@227

Disagree. It takes away from Spock’s character the idea I’ve been speaking about, specifically by making him less distinguishable from the humans around him. Pointy ears and a bowl cut do not a meaningful difference make. It’s Spock’s detached logical personality which projects that idea he represents which is erased by displays such as we saw if he persists in making them. If you permanently alter the character that way vs. temporarily for particular plot reasons, then he’s no longer distinguishable. He’s a Romulan. Or a pointy eared human. He’s not Mal, he’s not Kirk. And the issue isn’t a black woman being with Spock. Not for me it isn’t.

I ask again, what’s the difference between Sarek who is definitely not a pointy-eared human and Spock?

….And please, don’t go back to saying how a relationship must change him or take him away from Kirk and McCoy, because I’ll say once again, as *pointedly* demonstrated in the turbolift scene, that healthy relationships don’t change people.

You just find someone who accepts and deals with who you are…

Apparently many people believe there’s something wrong with Uhura that she can’t do that, despite being explicitly shown the very opposite.

@229

fallyleaf, every single example you gave was a decision skewed by Uhura’s blackness.

Let me explain.

Mirror, Mirror… Evil universe, and the only other minority on the show was *of course*, the one who gave her attention, which of course was unwanted, with all the very negative non-consenting connotations. Same with The Gamesters of Trikeslion, in which Uhura was almost raped, but of course by the end nobody cared or went back to ask if she was even okay.

In Trek V we have Uhura’s embarrassing exotic dance on a hill memorizing males who can safely look from a distance and admire with all those pesky uncomfortable feelings getting in way.

Look and admire, but never good enough to touch or care for with consent or freewill.

And that rule of thumb continued unabated until Star Trek 09.

…As I’ve mentioned, Scotty and Uhura’s “relationship” was precipitated by Sybock’s psychic influences…and then promptly dropped after the film (BTW that kind of dropping is typical of how many, many, black female characters are treated in film and TV).

Honestly, fallyleaf the fact that you believe:

“The treatment of Uhura in STXI (and TOS) is exactly the the same as if she’d been a white woman.”

….makes the article I posted and every point that I’ve made that you continually ignore and disregard, incredibly relevant.

What isn’t relevant is whatever work you’ve done for whatever other cause in race, because that’s effectively using the “I have black friends” defense, which is patronizing. I’m sure you’ve done good work, but it has no bearing on this conversation here.

It is convenient for you to believe she was treated fairly because it supports your belief that Uhura is “in the way” of the development of Kirk and Spock.

What I’m saying is that a suspiciously large amount of people think that the very same way, for very dubious reasons.

It cannot be a coincidence, that I hardly seen anyone who dislikes Spock/Uhura without any conditions or caveats. …That hardly anyone believes there was subtext in TOS or saw signs that there was a relationship before the turbolift scene.

It’s not a coincidence, that so many people frame the very light kissing scenes as “over-the-top” or something that made them recoil in some way.

And most importantly, it’s no coincidence that most of the people who dislike the pairing have continually regarded Uhura as having done something wrong or Spock acting out of character.

Hollywood is changing to reflect more of it’s audience, and that’s wonderful, but it would be nice to see less resistance and more encouragement/acceptance (and not begrudging) of those changes.

236. Aurore - November 2, 2010

OK.Now,I’m depressed.

But, I thank you for taking the time to make your points.

After November 2009, when I started “investigating” (actively) the net in search of pieces of information on the return of my heroes, I swear I did not expect to stumble against that type of discussions about a Star Trek movie, of all movies.

Yes, I’m the “naive” type.Was.

237. gingerly - November 2, 2010

@226

I doub’t it. This is Firefly for crying out loud, a niche show that appeals to nerd sf fans. Black woman paired with Captain would be have been a boring no big deal on this show.

You might’ve said the same thing about Star Trek before this happened.

But of course, everyone would’ve been fine with Kirk making her a notch on his belt, some chocolate to go the with the green, right? I’m certain, most would have been.

…Or Scotty being with her, this noticeably less attractive man (sorry, Simon Pegg is cool, but it is another typical Hollywood trend and it’s true), with this gorgeous out-of-his-league woman of color.

I already know for a fact that’s wrong as I’ve interacted with Firefly fans since the show was on the air and have read/heard the same kinds of things I’ve read/heard about Uhura and the actress on this site. The same dismissiveness before consideration, as if he’d never, ever be attracted to that. Wash obviously has some kind of weird fetish for that kind of thing. And oh yes, I heard the jokes about that from so-called progressive fans, as well.

No fetish comments about Inara or Kaylee though.

I like how Firefly’s fans are so progressive and yet Zoe is always perpetually at the bottom of every single Firefly discussion and poll, I’ve ever seen talking about the attractive women on that show. “Don’t get me wrong, she’s hot for a black woman, blah, blah.” “…but I’m not into those kinds of women.”

I do love how the only black man on the show is cool to everyone, but safely de-sexed by his vocation… Oh yeah! and then killed!… *noblely* of course.

Just because the show is relatively progressive, when compared to the landscape of TV at the time (and it did make some wonderful steps forward on that front), this does not mean that these issues couldn’t possibly exist for it or that they are beyond criticism.

@236

When I get depressed about it, I simply turn-off what gets us wrong and re-read my Octavia Butler books.

No decent person wants to be racist or sexist, but what people don’t realize is that not wanting to be so doesn’t necessarily stop you from unconsciously thinking or saying backhandedly insulting things, that totally are.

Conversation usually stops here, as this is seen as a judgment on the person’s character and because people are stuck on thinking that they are being accused of being “bad people”, when that simply isn’t the case.

We are all susceptible to prejudgments based on the limited types we’ve seen too much of before, with the top of the heap being most so, because self-ubiquity lends a kind of blindness to the issues of everybody else.

These are the times we live in. But if we can’t point them out, how in the heck can we challenge them enough to change them??

We believe not talking about a thing means it will stop existing. And if it doesn’t effect you negatively; if you’ve never seen it, if your perspective allows you to not even notice it, then it can’t possibly exist for those other people over there, either.

Obviously, if they bring it up, they’re playing card games and making stuff up, not relating what they’ve seen and experienced.

I’m sorry, but ignore it and it will go away, convince those people over there that they are obviously hallucinating these things, making stuff up, or playing cards when they bring it up, doesn’t work.

I wish more people had the courage to really look at themselves with an honest lens and figure out why they are more comfortable with the idea of Uhura being a notch on Kirk’s belt, a romance with a character “more on her level” and out of the way of the most important people in Trek (who just happen to be white men) than with her being in gentle reciprocating romance with arguably the most iconic character the show, who’s obviously too good for her.

238. Aurore - November 2, 2010

Sorry, I was being dramatic: though extremely unfunny most of the time , those discussions are,in fact, very informative (to me at least). You gave me a lot to think about tonight,but, I’m fine; I like it.

However,I’m in Huge trouble now: my husband found out about a love declaration I had made earlier on this very thread.
I must inform you that ,you are currently having a chat with Aurore Le Ghost.

Take care.Good night.

239. fallynleaf - November 2, 2010

#235 gingerly

In “Mirror, Mirror”, Uhura proved that she’s just as good at seduction as Kirk and Spock. She was placed in a (sexual) situation where she was the one in charge. /She/ fooled mirror!Sulu into not paying attention to his job.

In “The Gamesters of Trikeslion”, they most definitely were concerned about her, but as they were each trapped in individual jail cells, there wasn’t anything anyone could do.

If you claim that both times that the attention was unwanted only because of the color of her skin, then I will again mention Janice Rand, who received unwanted attention from Charlie Evans in “Charlie X” and who was very nearly raped by id!Kirk in “The Enemy Within”. Rand has white skin, Uhura has black skin. Other than that, their situations were identical.

I don’t understand either of your points concerning STV. In that movie, Uhura was allowed to use her sexuality to manipulate people just as Kirk does in so many episodes of TOS.

In the same movie, she shows love and affection for Scotty. Sybok had nothing to do with Uhura/Scotty.

A reason for the dropping of their relationship after the movie could be explained by the change in directors. Saavik’s entire character was dropped, after all.

Besides, Spock and Uhura’s relationship in STXI was changed from how it was in TOS, so I don’t understand this point of yours either.

Concerning the next part of your post…

I only pointed out the Racebending group to tell you that I do in fact have knowledge of the situation of people with different ethnicities in Hollywood. I then used the movie The Last Airbender as an example.

I am a black woman.
I am a white man.
I am a black man.
I am a white woman.

What if I were to state one of the above? Would it change your assumptions about me? I have read the article you posted, and I disagree with it.

And I don’t think that Uhura was treated fairly. I believe that her character was treated as being only important in her relation to a man. Whatever the color of her skin is.

I don’t know why other people dislike Spock/Uhura, but I know why I do. And it isn’t because I think it’s gross.

I think that in making her relationship with Spock the only truly important thing about her, it disrespects the character. Uhura deserves to be her own person with her own purpose aboard the Enterprise, like Chekov and Sulu, who each did their part in a drastic, exciting way. For Uhura, this was kissing Spock. Chekov and Sulu each get important skills unrelated to their jobs, while Uhura gets to be a love interest. We don’t get a scene with her walking a boy into a closet at gunpoint. Or one of her luring men into a trap with her singing and dancing.

And no matter how you look at it, Spock is blatantly showing an emotion by kissing someone in full view of multiple people on the transporter pad is out of character. STXI even went out of its way to show how Spock underwent stress and pressure from his peers and everyone else on Vulcan to be less human. Spock wouldn’t do something as /human/ as kiss a girl while fully in his right mind with an /audience/. In TOS, he tried to make an excuse for just smiling and spinning Kirk around in his happiness to see his captain alive (“Amok Time”). In “The Naked Time”, he admitted to being ashamed of merely having feeling friendship, and even then he only told Kirk this under the influence of something.

That’s why I dislike Spock/Uhura. I don’t think its gross, and Uhura hasn’t done anything wrong: it is the people who wrote her character for STXI and those who insist on continuing the Hollywood trend that way who have. Yes, Spock acted out of character. I would think exactly the same if he kissed Chapel on the transporter pad. Or if he kissed T’Pring there. Or even if he expressed affection for his mom in full view of other people. Spock, as a half-Vulcan wanting to be as Vulcan as possible, wouldn’t do that. The turbolift scene is different because him and Uhura were alone. But on the transporter pad, neither the Spock in TOS or the one whose character was developed in that direction in STXI would show such human feelings in front of other people.

240. gingerly - November 3, 2010

@239

I’m saying that by ignoring that fact that no one checked afterwards to make sure she hadn’t been raped in Gamsters, I’m saying that the fact that you keep insisting “[that romance]…disrespects the character.” means that you simply refuse to get this:

http://rawles.livejournal.com/340736.html

When you say “… Uhura deserves to be her own person with her own purpose aboard the Enterprise” ignoring that fact that she had one aside from Spock demonstrated quite well in the movie, this means that you really don’t care to even try to understand anything I’m saying.

I’m saying the fact that you would even bring your other work up as if that qualifies you for anything, that fact that every single one of your arguments matches up perfectly with every privileged fangirl who wasn’t aware of or gave a crap about these issues, proves that you’re no different.

At this point because I’ve repeated myself so much, and all of your responses basically amount to “you’re lying about black people were/are treated, not true!”

I’m going to assume you’re trolling.

Either way, t’s exhausting attempting to make you understand what you so ardently don’t want to.

So, I’m done. Continue to believe Uhura should skip her merry way away from most black female characters are denied “because it’s the best for her”.

241. fallynleaf - November 3, 2010

#240 gingerly

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. The moment an internet debate starts to consist entirely of baseless assumptions about the posters, there is no point to continuing it.

I /have/ read the article you posted. I know what Hollywood is like, and I don’t like it any better than you. But I don’t think that these issues are relevant to STXI. Yes, Uhura has black skin. She has always had black skin, STXI is doing nothing new with that. All that it did do was turn her character into another exotic love interest, which though it could possibly be a part of the story, and could even possibly be written into it in a way that doesn’t force Spock to act out of character, this movie presented neither the time and place to do so without losing the opportunity to build Uhura’s character.

And I disagree with that choice. I’d rather see Uhura be as much a part of the Enterprise as Sulu, Chekov or anyone else. STXI’s purpose was to bring everyone together and show how they seamlessly do their part in allowing the Enterprise to do what she does. Introducing Uhura as Spock’s love interest immediately destroyed the opportunity to allow her to shine being simply herself.

But please, don’t resort to personal attacks just because you don’t agree with my points.

I brought up the Racebending group in an attempt to show you that I know about the situation in Hollywood. I’m not saying that that situation is unimportant, or that it’s completely fixed today. My example with The Last Airbender movie proves that. In fact, characters like Katara in Avatar: The Last Airbender are what Hollywood needs to introduce in order to fix the stupid trend where actors/actresses of any ethnicity other than Caucasian are demoted to villains and comedic relief, or just token minority roles (when we’ve already progressed past that). Hollywood needs more characters of other ethnicities that are just as important and as ‘normal’ as any white character.

Uhura is not a character who suffers from this. Not in TOS and not in STXI. That’s all I’m trying to say.

Both TOS and STXI, however, show that how women are treated in Hollywood needs to change. That’s the problem here. I want characters like Gaila, Winona Kirk, Amanda, and yes, Uhura, to be given a role equal to any that could be occupied by a man. I want Uhura to be as visibly important to the Enterprise as Chekov or Sulu. I want Amanda to have more significance as her own person than merely what she means to Spock. I want Hollywood to stop giving female characters roles that make their value only what they mean to a man.

Black actors/actresses have been, and continue to be, treated badly in Hollywood today. That is utterly and completely true.

However, female characters are also treated badly, and are often written as inferior to the male characters.

I don’t know why you are content to let a black woman be treated as inferior to a (black or white) man. Because the way women are presented in STXI presents her character that way.

I’m not trolling, unless “trolling” means disagreeing with you. And please, don’t mistake a serious argument for someone posting “for the lulz”. My argument holds just as much water as yours.

And with that, I think I’ve clarified my points and explained my beliefs enough now. Unless this debate takes a new turn, I’m done.

242. gingerly - November 4, 2010

@241

The moment an internet debate starts to consist entirely of baseless assumptions about the posters, there is no point to continuing it.

That was done several posts up when you disregarded the essay, along with the hundreds of respondents, a few actually crying because the points so resonated with them on such a personal level.

And yet, you keep applying white feminist rules to us, and I keep telling you that they don’t apply.

You’re talking around me, unless you get that one simple point.

You simply refuse to believe it.

That’s what you “agree to disagree” with.

All that it did do was turn her character into another exotic love interest,

Please, clarify for me in what way was Uhura treated exotic? In what way is Spock loving this woman “exotic”, but dancing naked on a hill with fans is somehow not?

Uhura is not a character who suffers from this. Not in TOS and not in STXI. That’s all I’m trying to say.

I’m saying that you need to read Nichelle Nichols’ accounts of having had fanmail kept from her, having been the only hourly salaried employee on the payroll, because the producers wouldn’t give her a contract.

You need to read about her asking for a more substantial role but not getting one because producers barely even tolerated her presence on the set, of her almost quitting because she did suffer from all of this inequity.

I’m saying you need to stop calling a person you claim to respect so much a liar and get to know what she really went through.

I’m saying that all of your arguments in support of how wonderfully treated TOS Uhura was, go against Nichelle’s own accounts.

I /have/ read the article you posted.

You say you have, but your responses don’t support this…or at least that you understand what you read.

Here are some important excerpts from said article that you either skipped over, ignored, or simply don’t believe:

Uhura being single in TOS was not empowering.

Nyota Uhura is a black girl and there is no angle from which her actually being allowed to have consensual sexuality, being desired, and being loved (in addition to having her job and intellect, no less) is a fundamental downgrade from what she had before.

You cannot keep claiming that you get the above and yet continually insist this:

Introducing Uhura as Spock’s love interest immediately destroyed the opportunity to allow her to shine being simply herself.

I brought up the Racebending group in an attempt to show you that I know about the situation in Hollywood.

The fact that you would even bring this up as some kind of qualification for being able to tell me what is best for black female characters, proves how very little that you know.

You don’t know this situation, at all.

You don’t know that it is incredibly insulting to a tell a person who is living this, that you know their issues and what’s best for them better than they do, regardless of what they say.

You might as well be a man telling women that you know all about what it is to be pregnant because you helped a woman give birth once.

Or be a woman telling a man that you know exactly what it’s like to be kicked in the jewels.

I want characters like Gaila, Winona Kirk, Amanda, and yes, Uhura, to be given a role equal to any that could be occupied by a man.

You are demanding these things for Uhura, because white female characters get roles like what Uhura had in this STXI a lot, and are tired of it, lessened by it.

Black female characters hardly ever get that, capice? She should not suffer your misguided attempts to “better her” because you insist on applying you standards to her. She should not be used that way.

If you want those things for white female characters? Cool. If you want more white female characters? Cool. Make your demands for them, only.

But don’t presume to speak for us.

Don’t drag Uhura along in a misguided attempt to give her what you think is more, when it’s actually less, keeping her and so many other black female characters back in that stereotypical place that they’ve been all along.

“Single and empowered like a man”

Black women are considered innately less feminine than white women and are treated pretty much like men most of the time, already.

This has been going on since the days of Sojourner Truth and before.

If you google “black women are…” right now, “masculine” will be one of the top fills, among some other choice terms.

So, I’m trying to get you to understand that continually requesting that she be single and empowered and treated just like a man, is throwing us under the bus and you shouldn’t do that to your fellow women.

It is doing us a disservice, not a favor.

Now, I want you examine this for yourself and see if you can find where you said something offensive, that may also help all of the rest of this click into place for you:

Black actors/actresses have been, and continue to be, treated badly in Hollywood today. That is utterly and completely true.

However, female characters are also treated badly, and are often written as inferior to the male characters.

You see how even you, however Freudian, you don’t consider black to = regular female? Do you see how white = the default female here?

So, the fact that this woman is being treated like a woman, deserving of love, respect, and gentle caring by a primary character is not something you should be trying to sabotage.

My argument holds just as much water as yours.

You argument would if you were coming from a place of at least a modicum of genuine respect, and attempted understanding, instead of a place that intends to use a black female character for a white feminist cause, shoving her back a few places, in the guise of helping her.

Seriously, can we not just have this one thing without helpful folks stepping in to muck it up?

I do wonder why you are so concerned for the welfare of her character.

I suspect, that like most everyone else I’ve had this debate with that there is an ulterior motive, meaning not any particular concern for her, but how she effects Kirk, Spock and those other far more important characters.

I suspect that if she had no romantic connection whatsoever to the characters that you actually like, that you wouldn’t care an iota what happened to her.

If fact, I bet since this development, that this is first time that you’ve ever spoken for her getting “improvements” and that you were completely content with her previous role, as you yourself, have stated.

Her getting involved with Spock is the terrible thing that made you finally speak up “for her”, it so bothered you.

And with that, I think I’ve clarified my points and explained my beliefs enough now. Unless this debate takes a new turn, I’m done.

Yes you have and they are all about you.

Now, I truly hope that you are done unless you decide to actually believe and address the facts as I’ve presented them, instead of continually disregarding them all as lies.

P.S. All those facts, you keep *disagreeing* with? Including the fact that Sybok precipitated Scotty and Uhura’s short-lived romance, are supported on Memory Alpha:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Nyota_Uhura

243. Aurore - November 4, 2010

As I said earlier; very informative indeed.
If you keep on posting, I’ll keep on reading.

244. dmduncan - November 4, 2010

235: “I ask again, what’s the difference between Sarek who is definitely not a pointy-eared human and Spock?”

Of course Vulcans mate and have children. We all realize that. That’s part of the reality of the Star Trek universe, but what I’m saying is that the more you focus on the realistic aspects of the SECOND trinity (that’s the symbolic one), the more indistinguishable its meaning becomes, unless you paired Uhura with McCoy in which case that relationship actually reinforces the idea of emotionality McCoy represents. Sarek and Amanda were a blip on the radar compared to the rest of TOS and its movies where the sharp contrast between Spock and the others existed.

If you wanted to do a series following Sarek and Amanda, sure you could do that, but you would also have to make some choices about what that series was going to be about and if it was going to represent the same ideas that TOS did, and if it was then you would be locked into doing things the same way if you wanted to get the same ideas across.

I’ve also suggested kicking Kirk entirely out of the second trinity. Logically, he should stand apart. You could replace Kirk with Uhura and since her job is communications, she would perfectly represent the communication between emotion (McCoy) and logic (Spock) which Kirk standing apart represents.

That would have practical effects on the stories by giving some of what Kirk originally did to the character of Uhura by making her mediating in disagreements between Spock and McCoy rather than Kirk.

And that would be the creation of a symbolic function for her in addition to whatever increase in her realistic role as communications officer occurred.

Kirk could then stand by amused by the bickering between Spock and McCoy while Uhura takes it upon herself to facilitate communication between them, and also while the realistic (first) trinity/friendship between K/S/U as in TOS could still be preserved without blocking Uhura or the other characters from having meaningful roles as realistic (vs. symbolic) characters as well. But then doing that also suggests that in keeping with her symbolic role that she not “choose sides,” but remain objective and not become too involved with either Spock OR McCoy, which would represent a loss of her own balance toward one or the other.

So the symbolic function does affect how their realistic roles are played.

245. gingerly - November 5, 2010

@244

In Star Trek 2009, because we are talking about the reboot here, right?

Along with two Spocks being in the same timline, Vulcan having been blown-up, a loss of billions of lives, 46 Klingon warbirds, and so on…

Anyway, in this film, this is the dynamic I saw and what will likely expand and continue, with examples to make it clear as to exactly what I’m talking about:

Kirk/McCoy:
Kirk is brash and fearless, to Starfleet’s advantage, with both McCoy’s and Uhura’s compasses to reel him in.

Which is why they both voiced a warning at Kirk when he first suggested going after Nero, contradicting Spock’s orders (this was right before the nerve-pinch).

Not quite so much McCoy, because like many men of his type, though he blusters, he’s a softy inside, hence risking his career(!) to sneak Kirk onto the ship.

Uhura/Kirk:
Uhura fulfilled that role a bit more, which was what that “I hope you know what you’re doing” “Me too” exchange was all about. It was significant, because it was the first time Kirk showed a crack in in his cockiness.

They’re was also a healthy dose of defending her boyfriend. “Okay, you did this really jacked-up thing to him, it had better be worth it.”

Spock/McCoy
McCoy would be the one who challenge’s Spock, be his compass, at least, as we’ve been shown here. He has more bff history with Kirk than with Spock. That was what the “Are you out of you’re Vulcan mind?!” scene was about. He was checking Spock.

So, it’s basically:

McCoy -> best friend support – occasionally checks for cockiness -> Kirk -> becoming best friends – opposites balance – always checks for too much logic from -> Spock -> gets emotional grounding from – one person who doesn’t judge him for being Vulcan (which he did not have in TOS) -> Uhura – who also checks Kirk for cockiness and mutually rolls eyes with McCoy at both Spock and Kirk’s logical/emotional headbutts

That’s the dynamic.

So, that seems pretty balanced to me. Both lead characters now have characters who will provide a healthy dose of realism, so it’s not just logic or cockiness gone will-nilly, for these still young and developing characters.

246. Aging Fangirl - November 6, 2010

I’ve been lurking here for over a year now and would have been content to stay in that mode, had I not felt compelled to share the results of a little research project.

Fallynleaf made several references to the Uhura/Scotty romance in Final Frontier, in particular the suitability of that relationship over the ST09 pairing of Uhura/Spock. This set my mind to wondering what the general response to that pairing had been. So I did a little digging … and the results were interesting, to say the least. These are actual exerpts taken from reviews of Star Trek: The Final Frontier:

“… Grandma Uhura flirting with Grandpa Scotty is just wrong on every level.”

“Uhura does the dance of the seven veils and smooches with Scotty (warped factor 5!)”

“…the matronly Uhura develops a thing for the old Scottish guzzler, often brushing past him with an ‘is that a fazer (sic) in your pocket’ look in her eyes”

Wow. Snide ageism aside…

What stuck me the most was that Uhura was *still* considered the aggressor, even in a situation where her romantic interest shouln’t need any prodding whatsoever! Let’s be real here. Uhura in both incarnations – at any age – is a beautiful, intelligent, vibrant character, deserving of any leading man’s affection. Yet here she is, accused of being the active persuer for the attentions of “an old Scottish guzzler’, for heaven’s sake!

Maybe what’s most objectionable about Uhura/Scotty and Uhura/Spock *is* Uhura after all. Maybe the rules *are* different for black girls.

247. fallynleaf - November 6, 2010

#247

You must remember that STV came out twenty years ago. Since then, we’ve gone a long way in fixing the racism in Hollywood (which isn’t to say that it’s gone, but at least its gotten a lot better).

The responses I’ve seen to Scotty/Uhura today are drastically different. In fact, I’ve read a lot of fanfiction for the pairing in the STXI verse and have seen fanart for it in both TOS and STXI verses. Every single person I’ve heard discuss the Scotty/Uhura relationship in STV describes it as adorable. That’s because nowadays most people don’t bother getting worked up over trivial things like the color of a character’s skin.

Those reviews demonstrate yet again how groundbreaking TOS was and how progressive STXI in turn needs to be in order to carry its legacy.

248. Aging Fangirl - November 6, 2010

247: “You must remember that STV came out twenty years ago.”

Hahahaha! Honey, I’m old enough to remember discussing first run TOS episoldes in 6th grade. I think I can do the math.

“Since then, we’ve gone a long way in fixing the racism in Hollywood (which isn’t to say that it’s gone, but at least its gotten a lot better).”

You know, normally I’m a ‘glass half full’ kind of person, but if anything this has shown me just how much some attitudes haven’t changed at all. And as for the Uhura/Scotty pairing being considered ‘adorable’ … Well, let’s just say I’m glad she did better this time around. :-)

249. Aurore - November 6, 2010

“Well, let’s just say I’m glad she did better this time around.:-)”

So am I,so am I…

250. FarStrider - November 6, 2010

247. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the willful naivety of that comment. . .

You said: You must remember that STV came out twenty years ago. Since then, we’ve gone a long way in fixing the racism in Hollywood (which isn’t to say that it’s gone, but at least its gotten a lot better).

OK then, name 5 mainstream Hollywood blockbuster movies with a black actress (not Zoe Saldana) in the lead from the last 5 years. . . hell, black actresses barely even get to be Denzel’s or Will Smith’s girlfriends or wives anymore. . .

You said: The responses I’ve seen to Scotty/Uhura today are drastically different. In fact, I’ve read a lot of fanfiction for the pairing in the STXI verse and have seen fanart for it in both TOS and STXI verses. Every single person I’ve heard discuss the Scotty/Uhura relationship in STV describes it as adorable.

So why isn’t Spock and Uhura together “adorable”? In regards to Star Trek XI fanfiction, why the hell is ANYONE writing Scotty/Uhura? Those characters didn’t even talk to each other in the movie (barely looked in each others’ direction, to tell you the truth). . . basically, it seems that these writers just want to break Spock and Uhura up for their own purposes (and I’d be willing to bet most of them are Kirk/Spock shippers).

You said: That’s because nowadays most people don’t bother getting worked up over trivial things like the color of a character’s skin.

Going back to almost any thread on this very board where any significant discussion of Zoe/Uhura comes up will prove this wrong. . . and just so you know, “color-blindness” is still blind. . . ignoring or being blind to a person’s color or ethnicity is ignoring something basic about who they are,and is NOT a good thing. . .

You said: Those reviews demonstrate yet again how groundbreaking TOS was and how progressive STXI in turn needs to be in order to carry its legacy.

Yes, it was groundbreaking for Uhura just to be there in TOS, too bad the show didn’t actually have the courage to make her a fully realized character instead of background decoration. . .too bad the original movies degenerated her character into comic relief who was barely shown as competent or disappeared for most of the movies. . .

~FS

251. fallynleaf - November 6, 2010

#250

I can’t. The statistics are against me.

“Of the 54 already announced movies Paramount plans to produce and/or distribute this decade, about two-thirds have been cast with a lead actor. If these casting decisions are any indication, 89% of this decade’s Paramount films will star a white actor, and 94% will star a male actor.”
(statistics from the Racebending.com site)

But theses statistics suggest that the problem now is actually less about the race of an actor/actress and more about the gender. Which is the point I’ve been arguing since the beginning.

But, just so you know, STXI doesn’t fit the “blockbuster film with a lead black actress”, either. The lead roles in STXI are Kirk and Spock. The entire movie is about Kirk and Spock. I know that the race/gender problem in Hollywood exists, but I’m not sure how it’s relevant to this debate.

People are writing STXI Scotty/Uhura generally because they support the TOS pairing. It’s the same reason why people write TOS Spock/Uhura. Maybe some of them are Kirk/Spock shippers, but does it really matter? People will ship who they want to ship. All three of the pairings have a lot of support, and two of them are interracial, and the third can be shipped at the same time as an interracial pairing so I’m not sure why it matters to anyone here.

Actually, I have only argued the race aspect of the debate because gingerly wouldn’t let me categorize black female characters with female characters in general and insisted that I address their situations separately. My original point and the point I have continued to come back to was and is the roles of women (of all colors, green, black or white) in STXI.

TOS did all that it could with Uhura at the time. The reviews that someone posted earlier about STV as well as all of the stink people put up over a forced kiss between her in Kirk in “Plato’s Stepchildren” prove that. They wouldn’t have let TOS do that. Roddenberry had to work very hard to let him keep the interracial kiss in there. The people who were paying to have TOS made were producing a sci-fi show for the money. If they thought that their audience wouldn’t like something, they wouldn’t want to include it, no matter what Roddenberry or others intended to do with the show.

And that said, I never saw Uhura as background decoration. She was a character in her own right, especially in the movies. She was no more comic relief than Spock or McCoy (who were on occasion given comedic lines or placed in comedic situations). She was shown as competent in both the movies in TOS. (“Mirror, Mirror”, her help in stealing the Enterprise in STIII, her role in STV…). And she is definitely one of the most recognized characters in TOS.

252. FarStrider - November 7, 2010

I’m glad you took the time to look up those statistics, but that’s derailing the point . . .yes, there is a gender problem in Hollywood, but that doesn’t negate the fact that there is a RACIAL problem also, which according to your comment in 247, is getting “a lot better”. . .I notice that you didn’t say anything about what percentage of the remaining 6% of Paramount movies will star African American females. . .so, let me rephrase the question for you. . .Name five mainstream blockbuster movies from the last five years (not in the future), in which the lead female actress (which, btw, Zoe Saldana was in ST XI) is African American. . . .can you name the African American equivalent to an Angelina Jolie, or Julia Roberts, or Reese Witherspoon?

If you had read (and understood) the essay in Rawles’ livejournal that Gingerly had linked earlier, you would understand why race matters and why Gingerly wouldn’t just let categorize black female characters as “just female”. . .

As for Uhura’s characterization in the movies, please take off the rose-colored glasses. . .in the first 2 movies, female characters that we had never seen before got more characterization than Uhura ever got in the 60-something episodes of the show that she appeared in. . .pray tell, what exactly did she do in those 2 again? in TSFS, she puts “Mr. Adventure” in a closet and then disappears for 2/3s of the film. . .and what important plot point did she serve in TVH other than fish-out-of-water comic relief? The less said about the fan dance and “romance” with Scotty in TFF the better, and being unable to speak a word of Klingon despite being the communications officer on a starship for over 20 years. . . yeah, great characterization; the way I see it, Uhura was ill-used in the movies; hell she wasn’t even given a first name, she was sooo important to those plots. . . but really. . .none of that matters anymore. . . the Nyota Uhura in STXI forward is NOT the Uhura in TOS or its movies. . . her characterization won’t be the same, she has a first name now, she is allowed to be desirable as a woman now, she is canonically with Spock now, she actually contributed to the plot of STXI. . . so, really, any arguments about her moot. . .

~FS

253. Aging Fangirl - November 7, 2010

252: Well put.

I thought the new movei did a wonderful job of showcasing Uhura in ways that were unexpected – and long overdue. Someone without any TOS background at all could walk away with this: Nyota Uhura has a social life, she suffers no fool gladly (including future captains), she’s an ambitious and smart cookie who augments her natural talents with hard work and – the icing on the cake – she has an emotional life and is an object of desire.

Now, why anyone would think that particular combination is anti female or – even more puzzling – is okay for Scotty but not for Spock, makes me scratch my head and wonder why. (And don’t even try the old ‘out of character for Spock’ schlock, Seriously. Just. Don’t.)

Now, how about getting her a proper uniform, with her well earned stripes on the sleeves?

254. gingerly - November 7, 2010

:)

That is all.

255. fallynleaf - November 8, 2010

#252, #253 FarStrider, Aging Fangirl, gingerly

I don’t think we’ll ever reach an agreement on Uhura.

But since this entire discussion had nothing to do with the original topic (T’Pring) anyways, may I suggest a completely different tangent to go off on?

What do each of you think about the portrayals of other women in STXI: Amanda, Gaila, Winona, even Chapel?

256. FarStrider - November 8, 2010

255. If T’Pring is in the next movie, then it has a direct bearing on Uhura’s character, since she is now canonically in a relationship with Spock, which is how we got onto this topic,. . . I do understand that talking about race is not easy, and that you want to get back into your feminist comfort zone, but, and I can only speak for myself, I’m not interested in your attempt to derail this conversation. . .sorry. . .

Maybe later in topic dedicated to the other (white) female characters of STXI. . . we’ll see. . .

~FS

257. Aurore - November 9, 2010

Well said.
I personally am interested in following this thread only if the discussion stays on topic.

258. Aging Fangirl - November 9, 2010

255:

No, sorry. This topic is precisely what prompted me to de-cloak in the first place. If you want to throw in the towel, that’s okay by me.

259. gingerly - November 9, 2010

@255

Honestly? After the way this topic went, I don’t feel comfortable having a conversation about those characters with you.

Though you are welcome to scroll through this and many other topics on this site to read my thoughts on it, as I’ve posted about them here pretty extensively, since last year.

There are other places where you can speak and read about them including an excellent online forum devoted to all the women of Trek that was linked in that essay you didn’t read.

260. gingerly - November 9, 2010

Now back to the topic.

I do honestly feel somewhat betrayed by other geeks on this. Since being a fan has meant that rooting for the best for characters who don’t look like me has been my normal thing since I was a girl.

Heck, had to be to be a fan…It’s not like we have a great many choices. :)

I cheered along with my fellow geeks, had a great time being a geeky fan of these characters and not once did I suggest that they be shuffled aside to some lesser position for their own good.

But now that a black girl (FINALLY!) gets her turn to be the sole focus in a mainstream fanon, get the lead guy, and be awesome at her sci-fi job, all of the sudden there are all kinds of stipulations and excuses for why this just isn’t okay.

All of sudden there are all kinds of oddball suggestions…

I’ve never suggested that Scully was forcing herself on Mulder, never thought Leia was a bitch for telling off Han Solo, not once did I think it would be “adorable” for Rachel to end up with J. F. Sebastian instead of Decker.

So, it’s just really weird that all these fans are coming out of the woodwork suggesting these kinds of things for Uhura, when I have not seen them suggested for comparable white female characters in her position…

Couldn’t even imagine these kinds of suggestions would take hold enough to become as popular they are here.

So, I go back to what I said, earlier about no one wanting the black barbie. They can’t imagine themselves as the black girl (or picking the black girl in the case of white male fans), so they’d rather her be shuffled aside.

261. FarStrider - November 9, 2010

260. I’m not sure that it can all be blamed on the no one wants the black Barbie syndrome — Zoe Saldana is quite hot — although there is some of that, too. . . however, the thing about Star Trek fans that you need to remember is that they really aren’t as progressive as they like to think they are. . . if you look at most of the complaints about ST XI it’s all “Spock wouldn’t do this in TOS” “Kirk was a punk in XI” “Uhura had too much class to want a man,” “Holy Trinity blah blah blah” . . .it’s that they don’t want things to change. . . they want a carbon copy of what they are comfortable with. . . thus TOS fans wanted Uhura to be sexless and “classy,” TNG fans wanted a story that was an allegory with little to no action. . . DS9 and Voyager fans want movies about their favorites. . . .Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination makes a good bumper sticker. . . in reality. . .not so much. . but the thing to also remember is that most fans hated TNG when it started. . . they eventually came around to the new version of Star Trek. . .hopefully, they will be able to do it again. . .if not. . .they have 79 live-action episodes, 22 animated episodes, 6 movies, and countless books to read. . .

~FS

262. Aurore - November 10, 2010

Some crucial modifications to my stolen list in 209:

Helen Mirren,…………………………………………………………………………………………………….

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………Judi Dench,
……………………………………………………………………………………………………….Glenn Close.

263. Aurore - November 10, 2010

Although,I would not mind seeing what Carol Christine Hilaria Pounder could bring to the table with the character of T’ Pau.

264. FarStrider - November 10, 2010

CCH Pounder would be an extremely interesting choice for T’Pau. . . of course, if that came to pass, people’s heads here would explode. . .

~FS

265. fallynleaf - November 10, 2010

#263

Carol Christine Hilaria Pounder would make an amazing T’Pau!

But what about T’Pring?

I don’t know of enough actresses to come up with any good ones for her…

266. Aurore - November 10, 2010

264

Not as much as the fact of casting Rosario Dawson as Chapel on top of it all.
We did not see her last time after all.
In this timeline ,Kirk is taller and blue eyed so, who knows?…

267. Aurore - November 10, 2010

264

But, seriously, regarding CCH Pounder, if that came to pass, I would love to see her take on the character. The woman exudes such quiet strength and confidence,she could gift us with a very powerful T’Pau I’m sure.

268. FarStrider - November 10, 2010

Oh, I really like the idea of Rosario Dawson as Chaoel. . . that would totally blow some people’s minds. . . of course, certain people would see it as blasphemy, but, yeah. . . I really LIKE this idea. . .

~FS

269. Aurore - November 10, 2010

268

As far as T’ Pring goes ,on the other hand, I have no suggestions.
Some say Dawson, but, I do not like the idea.

270. gingerly - November 10, 2010

@261

Ahh, you’ve given me hope. :) I thank you. It’s all too easy to see this much negativity and just get cynical about people’s attitudes becoming more excepting… with more exposure, of course.

CCH Pounder as T’Pau would be awesome but again, you’re right about the heads exploding….

I really like the other actresses JJ has worked with already, Keri Russell, Lena Olin (she is my choice for T’Pau).

I miss Jennifer Garner. She might be able to pull off Number One.

Natalie Mendoza I thought really made her mark in The Descent. She might make an interesting T’Pring.

271. FarStrider - November 10, 2010

Well take this with a grain of salt because I found it on ONTD_Star Trek, but it looks like they might want T’Pring to be of Asian heritage. . .

http://www.endofshow.com/2010/10/26/asian-actress-for-star-treks-new-vulcan/

which could be a lot of fun if true. . .

~FS

272. Aurore - November 11, 2010

271

I am sorry,I can’t seem to be able to answer one segment of your comment in
268.
I read on another thread that the system auto deletes if a post contains certain key words/phrases,too many links or profanity. I also read that, there could be server hiccups
too.
However,I never resort to profanity (maybe I have, without being aware of it,of course,in
order to know for sure, you would have to have been able to read my post to judge for yourself.).

If it is all due to a server hiccup, it seems “it” has huge issues with my brief post: I tried posting once yesterday and once today.

Maybe the server will have trouble with this post too. I mean, stranger things have already happen on this site;recently some threads seemed to be suffering from a bad case of “double postings”.

In any case, should this very post not make it to the thread, this day will have been one of “discovery” for me ;extremely interesting not to say … fascinating…

273. Aurore - November 11, 2010

It’s a miracle!
My prayers have been heard; my post in 272 is “back”!

274. Aurore - November 11, 2010

271

Obviously, something interesting seems to be occurring: my post in 272 is here (or am I dreaming it?),but my answer to your post in 268 seems to be missing(maybe it will appear while I’m typing this,if “this” makes it to the thread ).

Maybe this all thread is nothing but a dream . Or, maybe I need some sleep.Yes! That must be it.
In any case,before taking a nap, and, if answering to your post (in 268) is to much of a burden to the server of this site which is subject to “hiccups” from time to time apparently , I think I might have another option (Google is my friend).

275. Aurore - November 11, 2010

271

I’m sorry, I cant seem to be able to answer one segment of your comment in 268.
I read on another thread that the system auto deletes if a post contains certain key words/phrases, too many links or profanity.There could be server hiccups too.

however, I never resort to profanity (maybe I have without being aware of it, of course,in order to know for sure, you would have to have been able to read my post to judge for yourself.).

If it is due to a server hiccup, it seems “it” has huge issues with my brief post : I tried posting my answer once yesterday and once today. I saw my post for the briefest of seconds on the thread after typing it and then…Maybe the server will have “issues” with this very post too.I mean, stranger things have happened on this site ; recently, some threads seemed to be suffering from a bad case of “double postings” after all.

In any case, should this very post not make it to the thread or “disappear” after a few seconds on the thread, this day will have been one of ” discovery” for me; extremely interesting , not to say …fascinating…

P.S: I have made more than one attempt at posting today and some “interesting” thing (in a The Twilight Zone kind of way) have occurred.This may be the reason why this post might seem very similar to more than one post I tried sending earlier. If the server “loses” this post, in order to answer you, I might have another option, and I’ll keep on trying anyway.
Oh, and in case you want to know, no, I do not drink.

276. FarStrider - November 11, 2010

Aurore… your computer seems to be hiccuping badly. . .but that happens sometimes. . . I saw your answer to 268. . . don’t worry about it.

277. Aurore - November 11, 2010

Oh!Thanks! that is what I meant by “other option”: I did think I might have a big problem with my computer.

278. Aurore - November 11, 2010

corrections.
272=stranger things have already happened.
274=too much of a burden.
275=some interesting things.

@FarStrider

After paying close attention to the post you saw, I realized a part was still missing.
The post was a two-parter so to speak : a brief post that you saw, followed ,closely, by another brief post that I do not see on the thread.

I was quoting you directly and making a comment on said quote. To me, it was ,to some
extent ,a summary of this whole thread. But, nothing too controversial, at least in my mind.

A few minutes ago, someone, who knows more about sites and forums than I do, told me
that my post might have been deemed “unacceptable for this site though profanity free”.

I don’t know if you’ll see that post.I know you read those words a lot from me today.But,
either,as I thought at some point, my computer is seriously hiccuping…or I will have to be
more careful when I type, I thought I already was, I will probably have to do better.

279. richard kallao - November 16, 2010

enough with the timelines as Deanna Troi
said to Will in First Contact: Time we don’t
have any time we’re out of time .Stay focus
on the crew why not have a crew member
go insane after everything thats happen,
Vulcan blown to bits,Kirk’s the new Captain
Spock/Uhura in love .Chekov can’t speak
right Sulu needs to bear a sword and we
need to hear Uhura sing like in Charlie X
I would pretty nuts to and McCoy needs to
start spouting out one liners ‘,damn it jim
I’m a doctor not a babysitter .rkallao…………..

280. VorlonKosh - August 8, 2011

OMG! Gong blocked…. I can not stop laughing… LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!

281. RALEIGH - October 17, 2011

@oVECHNOM 1 unfollowed you in the past 12 hours. See who: http://t.co/x75PnCiF

282. A.Payne - May 23, 2012

Vulcans are supposed to be betrothed at age seven so i read in a book. Spock would be betrothed already and would not engage in this sort of behaviour. I goes against everything established about spock. Making spock hook up with uhura just for some racial reason is not a good idea because it makes everything known about this species and about spock seem wrong, and as he is betrothed at seven years of age he would already be betrothed to whomever may be even this t’pring. And such contact as he has had with uhura is supposed to be forbidden under their customs. Also why do they behave as they want? Getting up and leaving the bridge whenever they want without asking permission, as uhura did? This whole story arc does not fit with who spock is supposed to be. Presumably people think obama would have such power to play with without white support structures in place, why should there be so much blacks in films and in prominant roles? The only reason they have so much is because of white society. Also what about black racism, why is this never discussed and confronted in any movie? Too PC?

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