Flashback: ‘Star Trek’ Wrapped 3 Years Ago Today + Bob Orci Asks: How Much Time Elapsed Between Films? | TrekMovie.com
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Flashback: ‘Star Trek’ Wrapped 3 Years Ago Today + Bob Orci Asks: How Much Time Elapsed Between Films? March 27, 2011

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Editorial,Star Trek (2009 film),Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

Today is the three year anniversary of a big milestone for the 2009 Star Trek movie. On March 27th 2008, JJ Abrams called cut and wrapped principle photography on his first Trek film. With production on the next film still months away, today we ponder a question posed by sequel co-writer Roberto Orci – how much time will have passed for the characters between the two films?

 

3 years since "Star Trek" wrapped

Three years have elapsed since the end of principal photography on JJ Abrams’ Star Trek. On March 27th, 2008 the director wrapped the141-day long production by gathering the cast and crew for a thank you and to hand out gifts. Although there were some pick up shots and second unit work to be done (like the Iowa scenes shot in Bakersfield), the production phase was over. 15 months later Star Trek went on to be a big success and Paramount quickly moved to secure the team for a sequel, having already signed options with the actors to appear in two additional films.

In the three years since wrapping production on Star Trek the various members of Star Trek’s "Supreme Court" (JJ Abrams, Bryan Burk, Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman, and Damon Lindelof) have, in addition to Trek post-production,  been very busy on their other projects (sometimes together, sometimes on their own) including Lost, Morning Glory, Undercovers, Fringe, Hawaii Five-0, Welcome to People, Cowboys and Aliens, Prometheus, Super-8, and more.

And the Star Trek actors have also been busy with all of the major cast shooting multiple TV and/or film projects over the last three years. And of course the actors have aged and are all now in their 30s or 40s (with the exception of young Anton Yelchin at 22). Chris Pine will be just four years younger than William Shatner was for the first season of Star Trek, Zachary Quinto will be only one year younger than Leonard Nimoy was, and John Cho will actually be ten years older than George Takei was in 1966. 

Starting last spring/summer the writing team of Damon Lindelof, Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci began the process of breaking the story for the sequel. Last fall they began writing the script. That first draft is still pending, but reports indicate Paramount is still planning to go into production in late summer and release Abram’s second Star Trek production June 29, 2012. 


Abrams on the set with his cast of "Star Trek" – which wrapped production three years ago today

Bob Poses A Question: How Long?

There are many big unanswered questions regarding the Star Trek sequel. For example: we still don’t know if JJ Abrams will direct, what it will be called, or who will be the villain (if anyone). And there is also an important question in regards to time.

When fans and general movie-goers sit down to watch the Star Trek sequel in the summer of 2012, it will have been three years "IRL ("in real life" as the kids say) since they had last visited the crew of the USS Enterprise. This brings up the issue of elapsed "in universe" time between the films. This issue is one that sequel co-writer Robert Orci called "significant" when he posed the following question to TrekMovie community members in our comments section back in January:

boborci:
Q: By the time we reunite with the beloved crew of the USS Enterprise in the summer of 2012, what adventures from the original series should already be in their PAST?

None? Two seasons worth? Ten Episodes? Which ones?

Obviously Orci knows the answer, but lets play Bob’s game and analyze his proposed options.

Option 1: "None" – no time elapsed between films

This scenario would see our valiant crew go from that final scene in Star Trek straight into the events of the sequel. This kind of dovetailing is how Star Trek’s ‘Genesis Trilogy’ of films were done (Star Trek II, Star Trek III & Star Trek IV).

The advantage of this approach is that (assuming this new crew make at least three films), you can have a nice tight trilogy that all ties together. This model can also justify the importance of the USS Enterprise as much of Starfleet was destroyed by Nero. The film can also pick up on the immediate aftermath of the destruction of Vulcan and the attack on Earth, jumping right into blowback action. In addition, you can continue to explore how the new crew get to know each other better.

The disadvantage is that the characters will not be much different than they were by the end of Star Trek 2009, which means the film could end up re-hashing the drama around the crew’s (and especially Kirk’s) youth and inexperience. Plus, if the designers want to make any changes to the Enterprise or to costumes, this becomes harder to justify (although it is possible some changes were made while the ship was being repaired following the battle with the Narada).

Option 2: "10 episodes" – or a few months time elapsed between films

This scenario would give our crew some time, but have them seen not too long after the finale scene of Star Trek

The advantage: most of the upside of the above "no time" approach, while giving the characters some opportunity to refer to events and experience they have had. For example, the film could include references to encounters the crew had with say "a surly Gorn captain" ("Arena"). The additional time also allows for introducing some changes in the Federation itself and how it is dealing with the loss of Vulcan, which would be a 9-11 like event with likely profound repercussions to society.

The disadvantage: You are still limited in how seasoned the crew will be compared to the first film, so you are still dealing with an young crew (and fresh Captain). You don’t really have much time to explain away any major design changes as well.

Option 3: "2 seasons" – or a couple of years of time elapsed between films

In this case we find our crew well into their mission (is it five years or open ended?) to seek out new life and new civilizations.

The advantage: This scenario matches up in universe time with real life time. It also gives the writers the ability to move the characters along and make reasonable changes. This is especially true of Kirk, where two years or more in the captain’s chair can move him into more of the confident swagger we saw on the original series. You also have the freedom to introduce all sorts of new design elements, props and characters that have been introduced to the Enterprise in the intervening years. And the additional time allows writers lots of chances to throw in references to experiences the crew has dealt with (both new and related to the prime timeline). The two-year gap could also see our crew dealing with a very different universe in the post-Vulcan destroyed Federation (possibly a war, or changes within Federation society, etc.). And of course having a multi-year gap matches with the real world so it fits with when the audience last visited this universe and
fits with any perceptible aging of the actors. 

The disadvantage: This version limits the ability to explore the crew getting to know each other, or Kirk’s evolution from new to seasoned Captain. With years of elapsed time in between films, filled with other experiences, the two films could feel like they don’t fit with each other as part of a trilogy (like the "Genesis Trilogy"). Any experiences referenced for such a large “in between” period would reduce the options for use in the third film.


The new crew heads out at the end of 2009′s "Star Trek" – how much time has passed when we see them again in the 2012 sequel?

What episodes?

Orci also asks the question "which ones?", and in this case he is referring to which specific original Star Trek episodes did the new crew deal with, albeit in a different timeline. This is also a very intriguing question. In the scenarios where there is a span of time between films, you can have the crew make reference to various encounters to both show they are now space veterans, and to have some fan easter eggs. These could even be used for plot points both serious ("I don’t trust them Spock, remember what happened at Organia") and not so serious ("Scotty, you look worse than after your shore leave on Argelius II").


Who has this new crew encountered since we last saw them?

A note about the extended universe

The consideration of how much in-universe time should have elapsed between films should only be decided based on what best serves the sequel as a film. However, the final decision has big repercussions for the extended universe of books, comics and games. Even though it has not been considered official canon, the extended universe of Star Trek fiction has served to "fill the gaps" in Star Trek, telling stories in between films and episodes.

So the decision on how long of a gap (or if there is even a gap) has a big impact on the extended universe. In fact, it has already had an impact. In 2010 Pocket Books was planning to release a series of books set after the film. But after four books were written Bad Robot and Paramount had them all put on hold. This was due to concerns that the books could end up conflicting with the movie.

So the longer a period of time they leave between the two films, the more opportunities there are for future extended universe Star Trek stories, including the four books that were put on hold. This tradition of filling in the gaps has been one utilized by Trek books in the past, including the 2009 "Star Trek Countdown" comic series/graphic novel which filled the gap between Nemesis and the 2009 movie. In addition, even a throwaway line in the sequel could be the launching pad for an entire book, comic series or video game. So I am sure Pocket Books and IDW (and any future official Star Trek game publisher) are all hoping there is a gap for them to fill with new stories. 


Star Trek books, comics and games have often filled in the gaps before and after feature films

My take: Two seasons (maybe less)

Perhaps my bias shows in the plusses and minuses outlined above, but I feel that the best approach is to give this new crew some experience before we meet them again. In a way that is exactly what Gene Roddenberry did with the original Star Trek. The original series had no origin story episode and instead it dropped viewers right into the five year mission.

JJ Abrams 2009 Star Trek was an origin story (for this new universe) and as such it dealt with a family coming together, and all the drama and conflict that this created. By building in some experience (and getting closer to the time setting of the Prime Universe), we can now move on to new conflicts and new arcs for these characters, shedding all the ‘wet behind the ears’ issues dealt with in the first film. This again is especially important with Kirk, who can now move into that bluffing Kirk seen in "The Corbomite Maneuver" which was actually the first episode produced after the two Star Trek pilots. Sure maybe ‘Cupcake‘ may still need some convincing, but we don’t need to rehash all the ‘is he ready?’ stuff. That being said, if we have a 1-2 year gap, we can still have some of the ‘getting to know you’ elements continue into the second film.

I am also intrigued with seeing how the events of the first Star Trek film have changed the Federation and the rest of the galaxy. Has it spawned conflict (hot or cold) with either the Romulans or the Klingons? What is happening with the refugee Vulcans on their new colony? How has the Federation dealt with the loss of a major planet?

More time also allows for the introduction of more new costumes, props, and design or functional elements of the USS Enterprise.  And of course if they did want to jazz up the engine room sets, more time allows us to explain away why Scotty isn’t seen amongst an array of what appear to be steam pipes.

Bottom line: one – two seasons for the three years between movies sounds just about right.


Experience for the new Kirk can take him closer to the cool confidence seen in "The Corbomite Maneuver"

VOTE: What do you think?

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Comments

1. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

I think the incident in “Where No Man Has Gone Before” is definetly before the 2012 Star Trek sequel. Except in this case Gary Mitchel is ALIVE and well !

2. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

How much time will have elapsed between films? Apparently just enough!

3. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

I say at least a season or 2. Bob Orci as of yesterday was 75% done with the script. I would like to see a season or two p[ass and some references could be made. Like the Enterprise was just leaving Space dock after having been damaged by the Barrier on the edge of the Galaxy and a reference about lt. Gary Mitchell. Or a nod to the Doomsday machine or even Elan of troyous.

4. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

@3.

I would rather hope they save doomsday machine for a 3rd or 4th movie :)

5. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

But at least a few months for the crew to gell some more and become the crew that we all love and respect as they go on there mission. But again. Maybe just a day has passed and we can see them come together as they take on there next mission. I’m sure Bob is writing as we speak to figure that out.

6. Phaser Guy - March 27, 2011

The second movie should be set long after the third season. Right before the Motion Picture, as it were.

7. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

#4. Me to. Or have the Doomsday machine a big part of this movie and have Commodore Decker in this. I threw out an idea of having Lt. Gary Mitchel becoming God like and he finds the Doomsday machine and he takes over it and it takes the Constalation and the Enterprise with Decker and Kirk to try and stop them.

8. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

Let’s have at least SOME time to have passed. I always hated how, in the time between TWOK and TVH, which is supposed to be a total of say two months, you could see that Shatner had aged at least four years! Yikes!

9. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

@7.

I’m a strong believer that Gary Mitchel has to be part of the sequel. He’s Kirks best friend and I think he can play an important role in the sequel. Acting as perhaps competition for the captaincy of the Enterprise. I really want to see someone challenge Kirk’s authority of the Enterprise. DO IT BOB. I command thee.

10. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

At the end of this movie the Camra pans out to another sector and we see the S.S Botney Bay drifting in space.

11. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

@8.

Lol. I’m assuming the Girdle didn’t help.

12. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

@ 10

Damon Lindelof mentioned in the commentary of the first JJ trek, that they were actually gonna do it. I guess they didn’t want to set the bar too high. But they gotta make a Khan or Botany Bay reference in the sequel. I’m dying for it !

13. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

#8 and 11. With todays tech they can simply Deage the actors. No problem there. Lol

14. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

@ 13

Don’t give any ideas to William Shatner. We’ll have that debate start all over again for a role in the trek movie, lol.

15. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

#12. I bet Bob has already written that in that we will see the S.S Botany Bay at some point. But. If and or when we see the S.S Botany Bay then they have to have the ship exactly like it was on the Tos series. Even the Clothes they wore and The Interior of the Botany Bay. On that they can’t get away with anything by saying new Universe.

16. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

My question is, Does the movie take place before or after the Botany Bay Incident?

17. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

@15.

I really thought that the Botany Bay should be discovered by someone else and not Kirk.

18. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

11.

Manufacturers are coming out with a line of Male Girdles for the aging boomers…

They’re calling it “The Shatner”!

19. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

#14. Oops. To late. As we have seen in the Movie Tron. Jeff Bridges was De Aged nicely for the movie. The Shat can also be De Aged to fit a role for Trek12.. In Termanator Salvation there was a scene where we seen the original Termanator like Arnold looked like back in 84.

20. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

#17. Well. Good idea but it has to be the Enterprise with Kirk. if not then there may not be KHAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! later on.

21. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

@ 18

LOL

@ 19

Yea, possibly. Depending if Bob can taylor an incredible epic story that can fit Shatner into it (no pun intended).

22. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

#18. At least it won’t be called the Harry line. Lol. Oh by the way Harry. Amy Adams is the new Lois Lane. I was so hoping it would be Erica Durance. lol

23. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

@ 20

Khan escapes with some other starfleet captains ship. Possibly steals the Excelsior. That sets up the meeting with Kirk.

I wonder what’s going on in bob’s mind right now about the whole Khan thing, LOL.

24. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

#23. At least we know it is not water drops. Lol. Just Kidding Bob Orci. Or am I.

25. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

I can see it now…..

The Enterprise encounters the Botany Bay drifting in space.

Kirk: “Prepare a landing party to board her”

Spock: “A moment, Captain. My older self warned me of us possibly finding a ship by this name…”

Kirk: “Really, Spock? What advice did he give you?”

Spock: “His exact words were, and I quote, ‘blow her to bits!”

Kirk: “You got it! Sulu, set photon torpedoes to destroy!”

Sulu; “Aye, Captain!”

Kirk: “Fire!”

KABOOM!!

The Enterprise proceeds to her next mission.

26. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

Harry. I’m Shocked by you. There is hope for you in the Empire after all.

27. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

@ 25

Lol. You see the trap Bob set himself into ? Does Old Spock tell young spock everything ?!? Or maybe old spock tells young spock everything, but when they go to the botany bay, theirs nothing there, because someone else beat them to it ? Maybe Nero helped Khan escape earlier. Who knows ?

28. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

Khan escaped to Risa where he runs the most popular whore house on the planet. Now THERE is a story!

29. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

22.

Amy Adams is Lois Lane? Good! Now, after Smallville goes off the air, Erica Durance can go back to working the night shift at Hooters!

30. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

26.

High praise indeed, Commodore Mike!

31. whatever, mary - March 27, 2011

I don’t see why we have to have seasons pass. Since they are just coming into the ages of TOS can’t two or so years have passed and we’d be just coming in on the first season? Midway through their first five year mission…

32. jas_montreal - March 27, 2011

@28

LOL. I can imagine Khan saying… “now this…. this is splendid.”

Oh man. Just saw Wrath of Khan like 3 hours ago. That Ricardo Montalban voice is still stuck in my head.

33. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

#28 I can see Khan on screen telling People and Aliens in that Montalban voice to come to Risa. He would tak like he did when he sold the Leather.

34. keachick - March 27, 2011

Why does there have to be a Gary Mitchell or a Commodore Decker, a doomsday machine, or the SS Botany Bay? Been there, done that. Maybe Gary Mitchell could come into the film because he was part of Kirk’s earlier days in Starfleet. As for the rest, the door is supposed to be closed on the prime universe. Keep it closed, and no, I don’t want any locksmith sticking keys in where they don’t belong anymore. Please, throw away the key, Bob and co. I have read so much about these characters from TOS that I can’t even watch the movies and episodes because it has all become so samey. I’m bored already.

I really do not want to see a lot of time past between what we saw at the end of the movie and the beginning of the sequel. This is a new young cast playing characters in their early years. We’ve seen the TOS characters in later years. If there has to be any deaging done, let it be done to the new cast. However, I seriously doubt that would be at all necessary.

35. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

Harry. Are you saying that you want Erica to work the Hooters down the street from you. Hmm. That does explain some things.

36. Barb - March 27, 2011

I’m guessing that the thought that the new Trek film will come out in June, 2012 is going to prove… a little too happy. It could be they get it out before the end of the summer, but I’m betting on a Christmas 2012 or Summer 2013 release date.

Which thus blows the rest of this discussion out the torpedo tube…

37. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

#34. I disagree with you. Yes. New stories are a good thing. But you can’t ignore what has happened before and what may still happen again. Just because we are in the new universe does not mean we ignore what happened in the Prime Universe. But because of the new universe and the fact that Spock Prime is in it there can be some changes to some of the stories but done i a good way.

38. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

35.

That way I would know where NOT to go. I told you, I’m not into horses!

39. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

Oh ok Harry. You had me scared for a moment. But Amy Adams. Perfect for Lois and perfect for one Carol Marcus.

40. StarFuryG7 - March 27, 2011

Well, as of this very moment I’m not prepared to go into how many seasons or adventures may have taken place between the first and second film, but I think the sequel should take place somewhere between three and five years after where the first film left off. I also think some kind of lip service should be paid as to whether we’re now in a new MWI branched off universe, or the prime universe undone and in the process of being totally rewritten. I’m even fine with there being a looming question hanging in the air in relation to that with no concrete, definitive answer, because merely suggesting it as a possibility is probably all that’s really necessary to make the point.

But anyway, as for how much time should have elapsed between the two films, three-to-five years IMO.

41. keachick - March 27, 2011

To Bob – read #25 on how to deal with Khan. Write it in the script. Excellent, Mr Ballz. I am impressed. It does seem that you do have some ballz.

Bob – Make it so. (just make sure it’s that bleedin’ Khan guy is on that ship – don’t need him turning up later, no way…)
Do it! Do it! Do it!

(See how murderous I’ve become about Khan – scary stuff).

42. Jordan - March 27, 2011

Why are you thinking “episodes” have passed? This isn’t the same crew. They probably experienced things very different from the TOS crew.

43. nony - March 27, 2011

I’ll be disappointed if more than a few months have passed between films. I’m looking forward to the characters learning more about each other and their relationships developing instead of it just being handwaved. A good plot is a catalyst for this development.

And sorry, Bob, but I don’t even like the idea of measuring the new ‘verse by which adventures happened in the old. I think doing that and skipping a big chunk of time does a disservice to the whole concept of the alternate reality. Things are different. Relationships and personalities and people they meet don’t necessarily have to be the same as in TOS. If we fast-forward, we lose the huge advantage of doing an AU in the first place – seeing the new paths they could strike out on. This is a fresh crew. Have fun with their wide-eyed inexperience.

44. Jack - March 27, 2011

how ’bout a little over a full season.

I never loved the getting to know you season on TNG, or really, all the
later Trek shows.

45. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 27, 2011

I thought the whole point was to show us how it all came to be. Seeing the crew discovering these aspects IS the fun part. Jumping ahead to what we’ve already witnessed, referring to it in the past seems to me short sighted. What’s the rush? Let’s enjoy the journey together.

46. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

41.

Thanks, keachick!

47. MJ - March 27, 2011

I like the two-year scenario. That will also finally allow new novels in the new Trek universe to be published. Plus, like Harry, I don’t like to have to pretend that we don’t notice that the actors have aged several years.

48. keachick - March 27, 2011

The prime universe is not undone and not being rewritten. This is a new MWI branched off universe, which is very similar to the prime universe and in other ways not. There is no looming question, never was.

OK, Commodore. I agree that seeing some nods to events of the prime universe would be good. As I said, I am not totally opposed to having Gary Mitchell, Kirk’s friend from his Starfleet Academy days. It’s just that everybody seems to want this prime universe character or that – there are so many, of course. It just feels there is no room for something/somebody new. It feels so confining. Of course, this is my perception at the moment.

The other difficulty for the writers is what the expectations of people here would be of any TOS character (friend or foe) they did introduce in the sequel. Are people going to call them out (not that nicely either, at times, as we have seen over the last two years) because they didn’t write these favourite TOS characters the way people think they should be written?

I’d have to say, at this point, we all should be careful what we wish for…

49. Magic_Al - March 27, 2011

Due to the altered timeline, the next movie will be set during Season 3 of The Six Million Dollar Man.

50. MJ - March 27, 2011

I will go back to my prediction that I have made several times in the past — the movie will open with a 10-minute action-packed sequence which will represent an concluding part to one of the original series (e.g. The Doomsday Machine). Then the title track will show up. And then we will be get the 105 minute brand new story, which will be something we have never seen before (although there may be some TOS references or characters that show up).

51. Jack - March 27, 2011

and I’m hoping any references to adventures aren’t too wink, wink. Heck, if anything, refer to some brand new ones we haven’t seen before (like in the cage).

basically, start ‘er midstream like they did with TOS.

52. Ian - March 27, 2011

2 years… Let the time between them show how they’ve grown with each other and the crew. It’s time for Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and the rest of the Enterprise crew to do what they do best – Seek out new worlds and new civilizations, and boldly go where no one has gone before.

I want exploration in this film, more of sense of wonder like TOS. Also, I really hope Simon Pegg isn’t a slapstick fool in the sequel. He was funny for a few moments but after that his jokes didn’t fit the original character.

53. MJ - March 27, 2011

Another prediction — Kirk’s brother will show up either in this movie or the third one, and don’t be surprised if he gets killed off to create a plot device for Kirk’s actions.

54. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 27, 2011

“The next movie will be set during Season 3 of The Six Million Dollar Man.”

I hope not! That was the worst season. Lee Majors in a girdle, set before the introduction of the Bionic Woman… and the bionic dog!
This is terrible.

55. Jack - March 27, 2011

42 and 43. Hear, hear.

56. boborci - March 27, 2011

53. LOL

57. keachick - March 27, 2011

MJ – Have any of the actors aged that much since 2008, except chronologically, of course? There is makeup. As far as I can tell, none of them have gained any weight. Anton Yelchin and Chris Pine are the two where any change is most likely to be noticed. Latest JJ pics of Chris show him looking just fine… he just needs some shut eye, before his next film/theatre project. Please make it Star Trek!

58. chrisfawkes.com - March 27, 2011

I hope the current crew of the enterprise see Star Trek as something that will continue to drive their careers.

When Michael Keaton was in Batman he was also getting lots of other work, once he pulled out of Batman it seems he was dropped like a hot potato on any other project too.

Back tot he original question, given it’s a five year mission hopefully not too much time.

59. Jack - March 27, 2011

oh, and also 34.

new adventures, baby!

60. MJ - March 27, 2011

@57. Keahchick, for one movie, I would agree with you, but like someone said for Trek 2, 3 and 4, where they did these for 3 movies, you could certainly see the age difference of the actors between 2 and 4. So I guess I could live with it being for the next movie only, but none more than that.

61. Jack - March 27, 2011

Is it still a 5 year mission? I hope so.

62. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

I’ve already commented extensively on this on the thread in which Bob gave us the clue.

Bob wrote: “Q: By the time we reunite with the beloved crew of the USS Enterprise in the summer of 2012, what adventures from the original series should already be in their PAST?”

I agree with Anthony: 3 years.

Why? Because Bob is a smart guy and he was giving us a clue. There is no way to answer his question without being able to establish a baseline time BOTH universes adhere to. So if there is a way to answer his question, the clue we need to establish that baseline must exist.

If it does not, then there’s no way to answer, and it’s a trick question.

So how do I come to that conclusion? Because there is no way to establish what time “By the time we reunite with the beloved crew of the USS Enterprise in the summer of 2012” is unless summer of 2012 is meant to to be one measure in time in which the summer of 2009 when the first movie’s events took place is the other measure, thus establishing a common metric between our universe and the Star Trek universe by which to measure the time. Thus, 3 years.

We need a similar measure to answer the second part of Bob’s question. Have we any clues for that?

We do.

On the thread http://trekmovie.com/2011/01/14/jj-abrams-star-trek-sequel-still-being-written-paramount-wants-it-in-3-d/ I wrote in posts #777 and #778 the following, reproduced here:

(Begin quote)

Delta Vega: Kirk records his complaints about Spock marooning him on Delta Vega using stardate 2258.something.

During the mind meld with Spock, Spock tells him he is from 129 years in the future which, added to 2258, makes 2387.

And when Spock Quinto asks the Jellyfish’s computer for the ship’s date of manufacture, it tells him 2387.

So Bob thought about the math and made all the numbers match.

Now apparently Bob is not going by the incomprehensible stardates used in TOS. Kirk seems to be using the current earth year and tacking on a . # afterward.

Still, that is direct confirmation from the movie that the year is 2258 as I calculated using totally different sources.

So, If 3 years movie time = 3 years real time, then sequel should definitely start in 2261.

Kirk Prime took command in 2264.

Since the sequel starts (2261) 3 years before Kirk Prime takes command (2264), the answer to Bob’s question would be that NO Kirk Prime TOS adventures (televised) are in the new crew’s past, but ONE televised TOS adventure IS: The Cage, which takes place in the prime universe before the date of 2261, in 2254!

That also correlates with the rumored plot of the sequel; it’s the only one of the options that were given that matches.

However, as it was also noted, Bob explicitly denied that there were Talosians in the sequel. But since Bob established the principle in ST.09 of renaming planets differently from TOS, we cannot be sure that Talos IV in TOS will still be called Talos IV in the new timeline; hence, it is still possible for Bob’s denial to be true (no Talosians), AND for the movie to be about Talosians by some other name.

(End quote).

So c’mon Bob. Confirm or deny. ;-)

63. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 27, 2011

Hey Bob, help us put this thing to rest. Whatta ya say?

64. MJ - March 27, 2011

The five year mission thing never really panned out in TOS and TOS movies, so I would just as soon they drop that vernacular for the new movies.

65. chrisfawkes.com - March 27, 2011

As for what characters they have already come across. I’m not fussed myself but man if you don’t work that out according to existing captains logs fitting in with what date you set the movie in there are going to me some angry fans.

66. chrisfawkes.com - March 27, 2011

Sorry for all the post but it occured to me that perhaps the way around that is to set the star date of the film then ask trekkies what characters they should have seen.

That will keep them happy and save some homework.

67. chrisfawkes.com - March 27, 2011

64- the five year mission set up the problem for the movies. They could not just all turn up on the enterprise so had to write the first few movies to get around it.

68. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

I should also mention that alternate universe Pike never had that adventure on Talos IV since the Enterprise hadn’t been built yet, Nero’s incursion having altered things. Which means that Talos IV (or whatever it is called now) is still possibly in the future for Kirk to have instead of Pike.

69. MJ - March 27, 2011

@63 Bob is just doing this to keep us busy so that we stop bitching about what it going on with the script. Kind of like:

DAVID
We just can’t sit here – !

KIRK
(unruffled)

Oh, yes we can.

DAVID

(to Kirk)

This is just to give us something
to do, isn’t it?

(he shrugs)

Come on.

70. Jack - March 27, 2011

tricky working old adventures into conversations (Hey, do you still have that sweater I lent you when we were trapped inside that giant amoeba thing last fall. Can I have it back?)

71. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 27, 2011

69. No doubt.

72. Jack - March 27, 2011

re: 5 years. I liked that they were “out there” for so long. The whole frontier thing. The TNG enterprise was often just leisurely patrolling the neighborhood.

73. anna - March 27, 2011

I want at least a year so that Kirk can be more believable as a semi-competent, believable captain (his promotion came out of nowhere in XI, imo) and so that the Kirk-Spock command team will be a tad more fluid, but I feel they’ll go with a few months/a season or less.

Pegg said on Leno: “What I do know the crew is still new to each other. The next film will still be exploring the process of getting to know each other. There won’t be just now there’s a new adventure. We’ve only just met.”

He could be talking out of his ass, but I don’t think so. I think he was clued in, superficially.

74. MJ - March 27, 2011

@62. DM, I agree with you time-line logic, but your arguments don’t handle the Enterprise’s movements in space. Given the alternative time-line, the Enterprise will never be assigned to the same star sectors as before (i.e. it will not travel the same path through space (including post 2264), so that really messes up your time-only-based argument here.

75. boborci - March 27, 2011

62. n 63.

believe it or not, when i asked, we did not have a fixed answer. was genuinely curious about input.

how long theyve been together may not have a huge effect on plot, it mainly affects the level of their familiarity with each other.

76. Jack - March 27, 2011

@53. Now I’m picturing Pine in a fake mustache.

77. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

To Bob Orci:

As to the issue of Khan, I made a suggestion at post #25.

“I never took the Trek-writing test……….what do you think of my solution?”

78. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

74: “the Enterprise will never be assigned to the same star sectors as before (i.e. it will not travel the same path through space (including post 2264), so that really messes up your time-only-based argument here.”

Not sure I follow what you mean. It’s an answer to Bob’s question, i.e., which episodes are or are not in the past. What’s interesting about it is that my calculations single out The Cage, which also happens to be one of the rumored plot lines. Of course Bob can make the Enterprise go through any sector of space in the sequel without any logical prohibition.

Except that now it would be Kirk who gets the mission instead of Pike AND I suspect the reason that planet would be investigated would also be totally different for the movie.

79. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

75. boborci – March 27, 2011

62. n 63.

believe it or not, when i asked, we did not have a fixed answer. was genuinely curious about input.

***

And what did you think of the input?

80. boborci - March 27, 2011

always grateful for taking the time to opine!

81. MJ - March 27, 2011

@78. What I am saying is that the chances are almost zero of the Enterprise in the new universe being assigned by Starfleet to travel the same path and visit the same star systems as the Prime Universe Enterprise.

So it is much more complex than your argument about the timeline only. Make sense?

82. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

Like a squirrel, this guy! ;-)

83. anna - March 27, 2011

BOB!!! “it mainly affects the level of their familiarity with each other.”

SOME familiarity, please, for the love of God. :((

84. Jack - March 27, 2011

And I would guess pretty familiar, professionally, at least. I guess the key relationship would be Kirk and Spock… and, yeah, how familiar/close they are, at this point. And maybe Spock/McCoy.

Did that happen gradually on TOS, or was it written that way (as BFFs).

And if lots of time had passed, how close would Spock and Uhura be? Shared quarters? Or the assumption that each had moved on? Hmmm. Exciting.

85. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 27, 2011

Like to see the blowback from Kirk’s rapid ascension. That shouldn’t be brushed over, adding another and unfamiliar wrinkle to the fanchise -and drama. Another reason for a brief elapse (weeks or months instead of years).

86. Jack - March 27, 2011

75. “when I asked…”

So you have a fixed answer now? ;)

87. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

After Spock gave Uhura the old “Vulcan Butterfly Lick”, she didn’t want to be together anymore.

Skilled tongue indeed!

88. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

81: “So it is much more complex than your argument about the timeline only. Make sense?”

Only if you assume the reasons for going there (Talos IV renamed as ?) are the same. I don’t think Bob would do that.

More importantly, however, is that the Talosian story would be a great story with lots of potential. That’s what would decide it, I think. If Bob sees potential there.

89. Jack - March 27, 2011

87. Awesome.

Exploring Uranus #3

90. boborci - March 27, 2011

86. nothing is done until it is done. we dont even have first daft yet.

91. anna - March 27, 2011

Idgaf about Spock and Uhura tbh, I’m worried about Kirk and Spock making for a shabby command team because and potential undermining of Kirk’s command because he’s still green. The dude is supposed to be a brilliant tactician and legendary captain :((

92. MJ - March 27, 2011

Hey Bob, can you please give some clue as to the progress of the first draft of the script? How about just answering this question only — are you past the 75% point on getting it done? Thanks!

93. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

In other words, Talos IV might now be New Vulcan. What an interesting situation that would be. There are ways of getting around Spock Prime knowing and warning about that world based on his familiarity with the Prime Universe.

94. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 27, 2011

75. Facinating. It’s exhilarating to hear how much you care, and that we could make a difference. The interactive aspect is new, different, and most rewarding.

95. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 27, 2011

Fascinating

96. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

90. boborci – March 27, 2011

86. nothing is done until it is done. we dont even have first daft yet.

***

What are the odds, and what would have to occur, for you guys to totally scratch the idea you have and to start over?

97. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 27, 2011

Hey Bob Orci. Out of Curiosity on Trek 12. Have you put any of our ideas that we have posted over the past few months here on Trek Movie and use any of them for Trek 12.

98. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 27, 2011

Bob, I hope the events of the first movie do come in to play in the sequel.

99. boborci - March 27, 2011

JJ would have to read the first draft and say, “this is so crappy that unless you do something different, i will not direct it.”

100. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

90.

First daft?

Oh, so it’s a Scottish comedy?

101. Red Dead Ryan - March 27, 2011

96.
…..

I suspect they’d have to start over if somehow you figured out what they have written. Either that, or if his dog somehow found and ate every copy!

102. Jack - March 27, 2011

93. Dude, are you Talosian?

Ps. I may have to start taking Ritalin when Bob’s on here, or Cordrazine. I get a little excited.

In the tell us and you’ll have to kill us department, what’s your feeling on how familiar they are?

103. Buzz Cagney - March 27, 2011

#8 Harry, you have to remember he was spending a great deal of time playing a Hooker at that point. It would be enough to age anyone!

104. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

Okay. So having JJ direct is still a big part of the equation for you guys. I agree with that. Now if JJ says that, do you guys have backup ideas ready?

105. Red Dead Ryan - March 27, 2011

103.
…….

You and your “Hooker”….

106. boborci - March 27, 2011

104. yeah. the back up plan is that i go to an irish pub and drown out my sorrows until i die.

107. Reign1701A - March 27, 2011

I think we have some chronology issues here. The crew is limited in what they can reference from TOS if only 1-3 years have passed. The year is 2258 in Star Trek 2009 (according to Spock’s personal log entry after Vulcan is destroyed and Kirk’s log entry after he’s exiled on Delta-Hoth). The movie made it very clear that Kirk in the new timeline takes command at a much younger age (25) than Kirk in the prime timeline (who was in his 30′s).

The original 5 year mission started in either 2265 or 2266 (On Voyager, Icheb stated it was 2265-2270). So if only a few years have passed, we’re still a few years short before the 5 year mission, and thus the familiar encounters that the crew can reference.

So I guess it can be argued that the timeline was altered so that Kirk and co. encounter Balok, the Gorn, Khan, etc sooner in the new timeline. However some encounters, like the Doomsday Machine, The Kelvans, or V’Ger, shouldn’t be altered because of changes in the timeline (since they came from other parts of the galaxy or different galaxies). I’m sure there are other encounters that wouldn’t be affected by the Nero incursion too.

The other issue is that with events that happened in TOS that also happen in the new timeline, are the writers assuming they played out the same in both timelines…isn’t that assuming too much? Just some food for though…

108. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

Bob, we don’t expect you to admit that anything we posted here is in the next movie……BUT, can you at least tell us if any of our dialogues here INFLUENCED your thought process?

109. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

106

LOL!

Let me know the pub. I’ll join you!

110. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

I’m reminded of the scene in Galaxy Quest, when all is lost and they ask Alexander where he’s going on the ship, and he replies, “to see if there’s a pub!”

111. Jack - March 27, 2011

I’m living that plan as we speak.

Is this one tougher to write? There’s a whole universe of possibilities, I’d guess that narrowing those down might be tough.

Are there any directives from the studio or JJ (I almost said Gene) in this stage, or do you guys start from scratch?

Just curious, not trying to up the pressure.

112. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

Bob

we may have asked you this before, so please forgive, but when you come to the end of a hard day, and it’s time for a drink, what is your favorite libation?

113. boborci - March 27, 2011

108. of course!

truly.

114. Buzz Cagney - March 27, 2011

#75 I think we totally get how ‘familiar’ Spock and Uhura are with each other! As in ‘far too Captain, sir’ !

115. anna - March 27, 2011

109. Take Cupcake with you to kick his ass >:(

116. Red Dead Ryan - March 27, 2011

Bob can just visit the Engineering section on the Enterprise if he wants to get hammered. Scotty can pour him a cold one! And its free!

117. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

If I had a secure way of posting it so only Bob could see, I’d let him read a “backup plan” that I think would be right up JJ’s alley.

118. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 27, 2011

113. Hmmm.

119. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

my title: STAR TREK, A Crowning Sea of Stars.

120. Red Dead Ryan - March 27, 2011

I wonder if Bob has written anything while under the influence? A WUI?
Maybe inadvertantly writing “Captain Morgan” into a script?

121. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

Bob

I just need to confirm, did you get my e-mail regarding reading a certain something?

I’m only asking to double-check you got the query.

122. Jack - March 27, 2011

117. Rhymes with Malosian?

Totally kidding. I’m a dick. I don’t really get the Talosian appeal. The what’s real, what’s not stuff is a sci fi staple.

123. Anthony Pascale - March 27, 2011

Bob,

sounds like when you guys wrote a movie that required Nimoy to sign on before he had signed on. You really like to write without a net dont you?

124. dmduncan - March 27, 2011

117. Rhymes with Malosian?

Nothing to do with them. Nothing to do with any episode. Totally new.

125. Buzz Cagney - March 27, 2011

#121 I reckon he’s struggling with it, Harry. Try a pen or pencil next time, crayon is very hard to read buddy. ;-)

126. Reign1701A - March 27, 2011

Corrections: 2264 or 2265 as 5-year mission start dates; and food for thought*

And in regards to Spock prime giving huge spoilers to our new crew (hey, don’t worry about that Balok dude, it’s just a spacebaby controlling a puppet), I’d imagine a throwaway line would solve that. Something like…temporal prime directive…Spock went back to “his” timeline before spilling the beans…doesn’t really matter.

In regards to rehashing the drama of Kirk being inexperienced, it would be interesting, I think, to drop in on them months or years later and find that because of the feats he’s performed, Kirk has earned the trust and respect of MOST of his crew, but maybe there are some that have their doubts and still don’t trust him. I almost think it would be too jarring to see everybody be fully confident in Kirk, especially given the rapidity of his promotion to Captain. We never saw HOW Kirk gained the trust and respect of his crew in TOS, and I think that would be fascinating to explore in the sequel, at least to some extent. I really doubt everyone is on Team Kirk just because of the Nero incident.

127. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

Bob

I expect at least TWO classic scenes in the next movie that involve the Kirk/Spock/McCoy debate/discussion/argument dynamic! Scenes that will make Trek veterans wet their pants! Thank you!

128. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

125.

D’OH!!

Tell me, Buzz, can you read what I’m writing in crayon to you right now?

129. boborci - March 27, 2011

123.

hmmm. i guess so, but especially for Trek. no risk, no reward.

130. Red Dead Ryan - March 27, 2011

125.
…….

Don’t mock him Buzz! :-) We may all be asking for his autograph once he hits the big time! I just hope our friend Mr. Ballz doesn’t forget about us “little people”!

I hope he uses “Harry Ballz” as his screen name. As in “The Oscar For Best Screenplay goes to…….( Tom Hanks opens envelope, strange look on his face as he reads name) HARRY BALLZ?!”

131. Buzz Cagney - March 27, 2011

wow that crayon looks just like a middle finger, Harry!

132. boborci - March 27, 2011

121. Soon, Pinky!

133. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

130.

LIFE IS LIKE A BOX OF…..BALLZ?????

134. Ironhyde - March 27, 2011

I think it should be immediate. No, I don’t remember what happened at Organia! I didn’t see it yet in this time-line! If Orci and Kurtzman want to take on the mighty task or resetting the timeline and making a parallel universe, they better be up to it and not lazy their way through the first couple of years. Is this going to be a new universe with new characters, or not ?

I think it’s a cheat if they start filling in time lapses with events that we know from TOS. What if the outcomes are different, you ask? Well, I want to see it! TNG redid a lot of TOS episode ideas, even BSG redid a lot of TNG! But the fun of watching it again was seeing a new solution and different, but familiar characters playing it out. It would be personally offensive to me and probably a few others for Orci et al. to jump through a season of Star Trek which really, honestly, probably didn’t even happen!

To fill in history like this is a crutch.

135. Anthony Pascale - March 27, 2011

Bob

Sorry wrong answer…the correct response was “risk is our business”

….I keeeed?

136. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

132.

Oooooh, now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Somebody hold me.

137. Ironhyde - March 27, 2011

ahem. But we love you Bob! :)

138. Red Dead Ryan - March 27, 2011

136.
…….

Ask Bob!

139. Jack - March 27, 2011

133. Life IS like a box of ballz.

This kind of wisdom, we should see in the next movie.

140. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

132.

That’s Mr. Ruby to you!

141. tarc - March 27, 2011

The perfect thing to do is mention a 10 month refit, and start the new movie at the official relaunch. They can then skip ahead a few months to the first adventure. I’m sure they can weave some relevant thread together to connect them, e.g. intoducing Gary Mitchell, and then following his story (just as an obvious example they probably would not use). That still leaves the audience with the ultimate buy-in with the relaunch, and then gets us right into a new adventure without overkill on the ‘getting all the crew on the same page’ stuff. It can still be early on, but Kirk spending ages whipping the crew into form is not fun movie watching.

142. boborci - March 27, 2011

135. damnit, you’re right.

143. Red Dead Ryan - March 27, 2011

Bob, have you watched any Trek lately?

144. Chasco - March 27, 2011

” I really hope Simon Pegg isn’t a slapstick fool in the sequel. He was funny for a few moments but after that his jokes didn’t fit the original character.” – Amen to that!
Tho’ I’m with #43 and #45 re the timeline.
Only a couple of days back we had some words of wisdom from Leonard Nimoy, pointing out that the ‘alternate universe’ gave the writers the opportunity to start out with a clean slate.
So would it really be asking too much for them to do just that? Please?

Additionally – the ages of the new crew mean they are STILL several years behind where the original crew started out. Prime Kirk was, I think, supposed to be about 34 when the series started; McCoy and Scotty were in their mid-forties. The adventures they had in TOS should still be several years in the future, even if the writers go with a 2-3 year gap.
What would be interesting would be for the writers to find throwaway lines from TOS which refer to past events in those characters’ careers, and build on them.

145. Anthony Pascale - March 27, 2011

Here is a fun fact:

The time elapsed between the productions of the first two Abrams Star Trek movies will be greater than the production time of the entire original series (not including the pilots)

146. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 27, 2011

144. Still, were getting stomped in this poll -even if you add the first two options together. Oh well, we’ll just have to see. Right Bob?

147. Harry Ballz - March 27, 2011

Anthony, my friend, I think you have WAY TOO MUCH TIME ON YOUR HANDS!

(and I mean that in the nicest way possible)

148. captain_neill - March 27, 2011

I think the two seasons later aproach would be better as it means we can get right into it.

Is till don’t consider Star Trek XI an origin though because it occurs in an alternate universe. I see it more as a reboot than a prequel,

I will still be there as long as they stick to Roddenberry’s ideals and they don’t lose what Trek is all about just to get more mainstream butts on seats.

Also do something new, don’t rehash the classics.

144

Agreed about Simon Pegg, as I liked his performance but he ain’t Scotty.

149. captain_neill - March 27, 2011

Because I am always going to prefer the prime universe, I feel they can do whatever they want now. It’s there choice. Cnon is not an issue i guess

As I said although I will always prefer prime I am still open to new ideas in this new universe, as long as it stays true to what Trek is all about.

150. Pensive's Wetness - March 27, 2011

like i said in the past, having Spock prime in the new timeline (even if he gets no further film time) means, possibly, that the federation can avoid many costly mistakes (Gorn engagements), better prepare some upcoming diasters (v’ger, the whale probe, the DDM) and perhaps save many vessels from destruction (the defiant, the Intrepid, the exteter)

or not, assuming that he IC loses his mind finally for being so old and exposed to so much harm, due to the loss of his home world…

there’s a lot of shit to consider in the big scope of things if your a cannon author…

151. MJ - March 28, 2011

@150. Yea, imagine with the foreknowledge that you could set some of a series of bait to maneuver the Doomsday Machine and V’Ger to have a great battle and cancel each other out. Also get Charlie X’s butt in front of Apollo…that will teach him! Hey Spocks Brain planet — Khan has a great head for you to use!

152. MJ - March 28, 2011

Also, picture a sad Kirk coming back through the Guardian of Forever, immediately followed by two cargo containers carrying Humpback whales…years ahead of time!

153. cd - March 28, 2011

With the script 75% done, can they really get the sequel done in 15 months? That seems like a very short amount of time.
As far as story time elapsed, maybe 6 months but no more than a year, not much more than that for the effects of the destruction of Vulcan including the resulting destabilization to come to a head, such as Klingon attacks on the ships taking survivors to New Vulcan.

154. Andrew - March 28, 2011

Bob,

Let twenty five years pass between films, then the second movie can be about looking for God at the center of the galaxy.

*shudder*

I was kidding and I still gave myself a deathly chill with that one

155. Admiral_Bumblebee - March 28, 2011

Doesn’t the movie end years before the original 5-year-mission even starts?

I cannot imagine that some or most of the events would or could happen years before their original time… The events on Organia for example.

But still I think there should be some events referred to in the movie… maybe at least a handful of adventures from the first season.

With the timeline changed so drastically in the first movie I somehow hope that those drastic changes will continue… new uniforms, Kirk with a beard, Earth destroyed, Enterprise destroyed, Sulu dead etc. This would fit with the new alternate timeline.

Either that or bring back Prime Kirk and put him together with Prime Spock for one last adventure :)

156. Jim Nightshade - March 28, 2011

u cant have kirk blow away the botany bay! Ricardo Montablebans career would be ruined! Shat couldnt yell kaaaaahnn! Worst of all–orci n company would have to credit n pay off trekmovies own harry ballz! Then harry would have lotsa bucks to stuff in Erica Durances waitress uniform at hooters–thats what they do there right? hahah

157. Jim Nightshade - March 28, 2011

And they HAVE TO finish n release the next trek by summer 2012 since dec22 2012 the world is toast-except for roland emmerich of course-he might let spielberg n lucas on one of the giant superarks in the himlayas–doubt he would invite jj yet–then again he probably wouldnt want any other director competition heh

158. MJ - March 28, 2011

Here is a really bad idea — Spock Prime reminds Scotty how he invented the holodeck, and the next two movies focus on holodeck-centered stories where the crew are characters in the 20th Century classic show, Murder She Wrote.

159. Jim Nightshade - March 28, 2011

haha Mj or worse maybe a musical like Chicago? hahah or the Wild Wild West remake remake hahaha…

Hmm since i read most of the posts and respond in bed using my little Nintendo DSI maybe i should check out the new 3ds…Wonder if I could read and Post in THREE DIMENSIONS thanx to NinTENDO!! Aint Technology FUN? hahaha

160. boborci - March 28, 2011

154. lol

161. MJ - March 28, 2011

@157 Seriously, in December 2012 Trek would be up against The Hobbit Part 2 and the Superman reboot — that would not be good. I’d much rather take my chances against the Spiderman reboot nobody wants to see and the Snow White chic flick that will attract a different audience.

162. MJ - March 28, 2011

meant “Hobbit Part 1″

163. Remington Steele - March 28, 2011

Ha Ha, it was I who asked Bob for something that he put that up!

Woo Hoo…im contributing!

164. Alientraveller - March 28, 2011

What happened to the notion some scenes in the sequel would take place during the (twenty-five-year) timeframe of the first one? I’d like to see that unfilmed scene of Kirk and Carol Marcus if she appears in this one, and way to canonize Nero’s imprisonment on Rura Penthe if the Klingons had managed to implement his advanced weaponry.

I reckon establishing the crew has been on a season’s worth of adventures would be good, they really know each other well know, but there’s been nothing significant or epic since the last one, just exploring and observing as is their day job. I hope the budget extends to a refit engineering too this time.

165. Alientraveller - March 28, 2011

Also, one needs to note Chris Pine looks older now, perhaps the make-up department will lay off the blonde hair dye?

166. Dom - March 28, 2011

It’s an alt-universe as far as I’m concerned, so Nimoy’s Spock might as well disclose everything he knows. I see the Prime Universe (TOS) as a universe extrapolated from Earth of the 1960s, the other ‘Prime Universe’ (TNG and its companions) as a universe extrapolated from 1980s California, which selectively incorporates bits of TOS into its backstory (I won’t incorporate TOS and TNG into one universe – they’re too different) and the new movie based on Earth of the 2000s.

As for the time between films, I say go for real world time. Three years down the line, Kirk is an experienced starship commander, respected by his crew (he’d better be since this is the military) and his own man, not needing mentors and so on.

Actually I’m not bothered with seeing the fallout of the destruction of Vulcan and so on. I’d like to see a standalone adventure with the Enterprise in deep space, far from the Federation’s borders dealing with something new. Even though it’s an alt-universe, this is the opportunity to do the biggest TOS era story ever made. I’d like to see a Star Trek movie for once, not a film about Star Trek.

167. Tarrax - March 28, 2011

So, would it be safe to assume both V’ger (Borg?) & the Alien Probe are still on course for a visit to earth in the new timeline? Both of these would need some form of reference by or interaction with Star Fleet in the new timeline, given the overwhelming power of both entities and the potential for Earth to share the same fate as Vulcan.

As I understand it though, even V’ger would be, what, 6 or 7 years ahead of the ST09 movie time period? Maybe for the 3rd movie then. ;)

168. dexter finster - March 28, 2011

skip over the “5 year mission” period altogether and have the new crew’s adventures in the “lost years” period between TOS 5 yr mission and TMP ;)

169. Darren85 - March 28, 2011

I think I’d set it a few years after the first one, simply to get away from that stretched believability that Kirk went from cadet to captain of the Enterprise so quickly. After 3 years of waiting for the next film, I’d like to have seen the characters develop and mature in more or less real-time to us, and anything less would seem like a rehash of before. Aim high and aim good!

p.s. Bring back Pike!!

170. JKP - March 28, 2011

Personally, would prefer they just pick it up right after or shortly after the last flick. I’d really like to see how these characters (KSM + a bit of Scotty) develop their relationships. I also consider the TWOK to TVH trilogy to be some of the finest Trek and like how it dovetails into one (mostly) continuous story.

I also think with so much devastation to the fleet that potential enemies would be swift to take advantage of the Federation’s (perceived) weakness due to the loss of Vulcan and half their fleet. This would make ideal fodder for the next big mission. How does this team of rookies follow up their Nero success in another difficult situation?

Two years is too long. It will feel just like an episode. Keep it fresh. Keep it new. Keep a lot of the TOS stuff we’ve already seen out of it except for little sprinklings here and there. Most of all, keep the unfamiliarity of the crew as an important element as they get to know each other better.

171. Canon Man - March 28, 2011

bob let 100 years+ pass and do a reboot of TNG showing how they all got together due to a Borg invasion (i never liked Encounter at Farpoint)

cast = Mark Strong as Picard, Brandon Routh as Riker, Cillian Murphy as Data, Don Chedel as Geordie, Gillian Anderson as Dr Crusher, Michael Clarke Duncan as Worf, Eva Mendes as Troi, Ali Larter as Tasha and Halle Berry as Guinan

172. P Technobabble - March 28, 2011

It’s always fun playing “What if…,?” but, personally, I don’t think we’ll be seeing too much of what we’ve seen in prime TOS. Breaking away from what we’ve already seen, what we already know, was the intention of the writers, was it not?
I can’t think of any reason to re-visit something from the past when you could do something entirely different in this new universe. To even take some past event and spin it around to play out differently is still re-visiting the past. Moving the furniture around while staying in the same room is not nearly as exciting as moving into a new house.

At the same time, I think we do want to see the characters take on the qualities of the prime characters — like Kirk being the man willing to sacrifice himself for his crew. Kirk becoming a Picard-like captain, for example, just wouldn’t work… unless he’s going to become a stuffy, sex-less, intellectual diplomat (hmm, did I just say that?)
And I don’t think we want to see Spock become too emotional, slapping Kirk around, killing off characters that p*** him off, or outwardly frolicking with Uhura.

Just my .5cent…

173. Patrice - March 28, 2011

Next movie : 2 years up. Why ? Star Trek II : TWOK used Space seeds as inspiration for the movie. It was a big success. Our writer team should go back to a third season episode for inspiration … Spock’s Brain !

Yes – a “Spock Brain” remake !!!

174. Alec - March 28, 2011

A good Article. However, you only considered options that Orci noted. And, if he’s not going to tell you the answer (which he can’t but not because he doesn’t know it) the actual option chosen might not be one he’s even mentioned. Here, I suggest a fourth option. We know the Supreme Court have been greatly influenced by the Bourne films and by TNG, especially All Good Things. So, I propose another option: anti-time. Perhaps the sequel, at least in part, takes place sometime during the first film: Star Trek 2009. Looking back, I always think that the final scene of Trek 2009, the bridge re-union, sort of stood out from the preceding events (just as the Landi phone call did). It happened after the ceremony, etc.; but how much after? It could be the first scene of the next film, or the last, or occur somewhere in the middle. (Just because it was the first time we saw Kirk in gold doesn’t mean it was the first time Kirk was in gold.) Since it was a short scene, actor’s aging and production continuity aren’t likely to be an issue, if they were to re-do the scene or simply add it in. And having this overlap would keep the interconnection and continuity between the films: the trilogy notion considered in the above article. Furthermore, the objection that this would be too complex and jumping around can be rebutted: the team seems to like complex; and Trek 2009 jumped around: ‘three years later’; the blackhole time-travel; etc.

Whenever the sequel occurs, I just want a good, exciting, innovative, and though-out film.

I want a proper engineering section that honours what is required and expected in a Star Trek engineering section. The Enterprise is not a water-powered city with nacelles. It’s an unbelievably complex piece of machinery: it would have a massive, humming warp-core, with myriad technicians operating computers and dials. The team has the money now, by re-using other stuff. TWOK made the engineering section pretty much like this and yet kept its distinct identity (a fear of JJ’s) through the use of costumes, music, production design, colours, etc.

I want the story to be innovative: it should show us things and do things never done before in a Trek film. Almost every scene (every scene?) from Trek 2009 was a homage to previous Trek. However, not every homage was seen or familiar; and so the film appeared innovative. But consider this. We all loved the orbital space dive, didn’t we? That was, in fact, a homage to a deleted scene from Generations. Kirk’s attempt to emotionally compromise Spock, which led to Spock’s physically compromising Kirk, was a homage to This Side of Paradise. Kirk’s hitting his head in the shuttle was a reference to Star Trek V. The apple reference to TWOK was plain to see. Wheaton’s line that ‘Sir, there’s another ship coming in’ was a reference to First Contact. ETC. JJ said that Star Wars has ‘done everything’; and, so, Trek had to be somewhat generic. I rather think that Star Trek (which came first) has done pretty much everything. This isn’t a great problem though: the fans can enjoy the homages; the causal fans can just enjoy the film in ‘ignorance’. It’s the same with many other franchises: compare the Fleming books with the EON Bond films.

I want the story in Star Trek 12 to be thought-out, in the sense that the story is clever, in the finest traditions of Star Trek. It should deal with some serious subject-matter. It doesn’t have to be moral. But numerous references to great works of literature are found abound the best Trek films and episodes. Clever, also, in the sense that the story holds water: that it doesn’t rely on various, miraculous, chance encounters; unbelievable promotions; etc.

I also want to see and experience the wonder, beauty, and mystery of space. Meyer had starfields warping past, great planetary shots with the (or should that be ‘a’) sun’s muffled light behind, nebulae, etc. JJ didn’t take the time to show just a couple of these kinds of shots. But these shots are key. The audience need to know that space really is the final frontier: only then can they understand how exciting it is to be onboard the Enterprise.

175. Rob - March 28, 2011

Fifty years on from movie #1 and we’ve a tailor-made solution to hosting Kirk Prime and explaining why he’s knocking on eighty!

176. Frederick, the Trek Scrapbook Guy - March 28, 2011

I’ve been lobbying for my sequel opening-scene idea since the last movie came out. It’s to open right in the middle of the action as the Enterprise is battling the Doomsday Machine. We see the end of the episode re-done with big effects, and it not only serves to show that the episode did happen as before, we see it with big effects abd movie scope, and then move on to the new adventure after the credits.

177. Admiral_Bumblebee - March 28, 2011

Has it been established how big the new Enterprise is? Is she really as big a s Stardestroyer from Star Wars.

If so, shouldn’t she dwarf all the ships they encouter: Klingon Battlecruisers, Romulan Warbirds, Gorn ships etc.?

Or did those other ships suddenly grow in size, too for whatever reason?

Just a thought that occured to me…

178. Mel - March 28, 2011

I voted “None”. I like to see how the crew grows more together, the direct consequences of the destruction of Vulcan, how Kirk learns to really be a captain and problems he may get from some Admirals, who don’t think he is ready to be captain.

179. MATT - March 28, 2011

Bob,

I listened to your Creative Screenwriting podcast with Jeff Goldsmith again over the weekend. When you guys were describing the Kirk-Prime birthday message, I got chills. I was always a big believer in Shatner being left out of the new universe, and still am, but that was such an elegant way of doing it, that I find myself feeling regret that it never happened. If you should come up with something equally as understated and earned, seize it.

180. Bringbacktrekagain! - March 28, 2011

Bob…I have to think we need something in the story, a fast piece of action maybe that damages the ship. (so we can get a better refitted engineering section). Ok…I’m gonna say it….Doomsday machine. (Unless this leads to some legal stipulation’s to re-use this?). That way were well on our way to the third season, and it doesn’t actually need to take up a lot of screen time. You’d see it and go, I know what this is, and then you’d see it take a new direction.

181. Lt. Dakin - March 28, 2011

I’m all for seeing Sam Kirk!

And the location at Northrup Grumman (formerly TRW) still looks great, couple of miles south of LAX.

182. SoonerDave - March 28, 2011

The original question by boborci begs a fairly simple implication that he is trying to provoke – that some significant episode (or element) of TOS history will have played out, and some consequence of that element is now a major factor in the 2012 movie script.

A few examples:
* TWoK’s Carol Marcus’ could be reintroduced, as could their son David – but as an infant or toddler, giving something for Kirk to protect against some antagonist.
* You could do a baseline story introducing the character of Saavik
* A character entirely forgotten in the reboot – that of Dr. Chapel – could be reintroduced
* The knowledge of the “parallel universe” Federation from “Mirror, Mirror” could be played out as “evil” Spock or Kirk, aware of the altered timeline, now seeks to intrude on our “altered prime universe” Federation in an effort to seize power.
* You could create a very Abramsesque, existential story by causing the Enterprise to re-visit the Guardian of Forever, learn how “prime” Enterprise interacted with it, but now discover some consequence of the “altered prime” Enterprise prevents the “prime” timeline from playing out properly, like a “Trek-Lost” :) Okay, okay, that’s an extreme example.

Those are just a few notions. The idea is that boborci asking the question is obviously intended to make us think about significant events in the TOS history, and something in that history is a big-time player in the 2012 movie. I think boborci is putting down breadcrumbs in the hopes someone might pick up just enough of a trail to start people guessing over the next year.

Sounds like great fun.

183. Matthias Wieprecht - March 28, 2011

If the crew of the Enterprise is going to get really acquainted deeper to each other in the next movie, it is just logical, almost no time or no time at all passed by since Star Trek 11. After two seasons or something like that they did know each other quite well – as we were able to see in the first timeline- seires (tos).

Also the crew is now NEW. This is a special chance to see how they are really getting the order to boldly go on for a five year mission. Never before this was possible.

What would be really nice: A kind of thread going through all the missions. For example: In the old Sinbad-movies, SInbad and his crew went through many adventures, but they have had only one goal! Maybe the five year mission could also have ONE goal, a big – maybe secret – thing, they are most desperately looking for?

184. chrisfawkes.com - March 28, 2011

You know what would be really cool, the movie starts with a fleet of klingon warbirds coming across the botany bay so just for fun they take have target practice eventually blowing it out of the galaxy.

This could be a fun intro and at the same time clear up a lot of the demands for Khan jamming up the forums for the next three years.

185. Trek Fan - March 28, 2011

I reckon they need to have given sufficient time to have redesigned Engineering and get rid of the beer cellar look and feel and replace it with something more in the line of Enterprise D. No more pipes and valves!!

186. Matthias Wieprecht - March 28, 2011

If the crew of the Enterprise is going to get really acquainted deeper to each other in the next movie, it is just logical, almost no time or no time at all passed by since Star Trek 11. After two seasons or something like that they did know each other quite well – as we were able to see in the first timeline- seires (tos). Also the crew is now NEW. This is a special chance to see how they are really getting the order to boldly go on for a five year mission. Never before this was possible. What would be really nice: A kind of thread going through all the missions. For example: In the old Sinbad-movies, SInbad and his crew went through many adventures, but they have had only one goal! Maybe the five year mission could also have ONE goal, a big – maybe secret – thing, they are most desperately looking for?

187. James - March 28, 2011

Does this mean that further down the line we might see the return of the navalised more militaristic red uniforms first seen in The Wrath of Khan?

188. Andrews - March 28, 2011

I am Team Two Years, Mr. Orci.

189. gingerly - March 28, 2011

First of all, great topic, Anthony! …And your thoughts were well-laid out.
However, I disagree with your assessment as well as the majority of voters’.

I’m onboard for the middle choice, a few episodes worth of experience. That way, the story will be both familiar enough to audiences and fans to lend authenticity and continuity to the proceedings, and be different enough to take us on a path that doesn’t already feel as if it’s been tread upon, before.

One of the things I’m most looking forward to seeing is how the crew develops and comes together, how Kirk, Spock, and the rest of the crew got to have such a great working chemistry and friendship.

Starting with them already seasoned and developed would cheat us out of seeing that happen.

Actually, I’d like there to be less than a season’s worth of experience. As far as references to old seasons go, I think that should be kept to a minimum and/or go in defined alternate directions…

Spock Prime has been established as having no qualms with giving the alt-timeline a helpful push. I don’t think he’d be adverse to providing a nice briefing to the Federation and this crew about the possible hazards and hostiles they might encounter. I’d like to see the effects of that, preparation-wise (cool tech and strategy).

And I’d like to see the effects on the personalities of Spock and Kirk, in particular, regarding the changes and losses they’ve had vs. the TOS versions.

I really think the Klingons should be allies with the Federation in this timeline or moving towards that already, because of the Enterprise’s involvement in the destruction of a powerful enemy of both, one who destroyed forty-seven of their ships.

I can see the Klingons respecting the kind of battle prowess that would have a smaller ship out-matched by one on hundred times it’s size and fortified with Borg tech from the future….and still the smaller ship manages to win.

And I think the Federation’s view of the Romulans should mirror the distrust many Americans have with Muslims.

190. Damian - March 28, 2011

I’m with Anthony here. I think 3 years, like real the real time between the movies can be a good thing. As he noted, it allows novels and other non-canon to be published. If they do a direct, day after today sequel, it will likely be another few years before PocketBooks would be allowed to publish because we would have to wait to see what the 3rd film would be. Do a movie 2 to 3 years later and let the novels fill in the time between movies (a la A Time To….novels between Insurrection and Nemesis).

Re–stories from the original series. That would seem to be difficult since it was established the original series took place between 2265 and 2270. The last movie took place mostly in 2255 (or thereabouts), almost 10 years before even the Corbomite Manuever.

191. BD in Ohio - March 28, 2011

Long-time reader, first-time commenter. Be gentle.

The correct answer is “None of the Above”. Here’s why.

The interesting set of premises there to be explored are what may have *changed*, not what’s happened in a linear and unchanging timeframe where everything’s assumed to occur more or less as before, but with X inversion or Y difference, thrown out there just to service the plot of films we’ve already seen. EVERYTHING has changed: The Butterfly Effect in this case is a monster.

Right off the bat, Kirk’s gained command some fourteen years or so earlier than would otherwise have been the case. Things have changed, and yes, he is clearly now less experienced than should be the case, as is evidenced by his naive attempt to show Nero mercy.

The Federation now has reason to fear the Romulans more than the Klingons….a mere “mining vessel” just took out a large portion of their fleet. And the Klingons just lost a vast number of vessels to that same enemy. Things have changed, and where Kirk once faced Kor on Organia, perhaps this time he faces (or faced, depending on that choice of timeframe) the unnamed Romulan commander, with Kor at his side.

Or not.

Perhaps this time, the speculated alliance that resulted in transfer of technology between the Klingons and Romulans never happened, or happens under significantly different circumstances than before.

Or not.

These changes extend to the entirety of the universe in which these things have unfolded. That includes economics at even the smallest of scales, affecting people like Harry Mudd. Things have changed. Perhaps this Harry Mudd is more of a Han Solo figure, who’s pulled somewhat unwillingly into galactic events.

Or not.

With regards to Khan, who seems to be everybody’s good example or bad example, I will simply say this: what if things somehow unfolded this time such that the two men were allies?

Or not: making Khan a temporary ally could give the writers an ally for one film, an enemy for the next. Or, just a figure who factors into the mythology, but not as deeply as before.

You’ll notice that I’ve avoided the “larger” question of whether Trek’s new writers *should* try to avoid the entanglements of continuity or to directly embrace them. And the reasons for this should at this point be pretty clear: Things have changed!

The writers have a blank canvass, by way of their time-travel reset, on which they can paint in elements both familiar and foreign.

If they try to go to either extreme just for the sake of doing it, they’ll accomplish nothing but alienating the long-time fans while also not giving newcomers enough context to get it”: after all, at this point, Star Trek’s soaked into the public consciousness enough that some of its tropes actually are known to and understood by the layman as “standard elements” to many sci-fi sagas. They call technical exposition Treknobabble for a reason.

Sorry for the wall of text. Some of this is stuff I’d been compiling in my head since my very first visit here. :)

192. Phil - March 28, 2011

19. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire – March 27, 2011

I remember that scene in Terminator Salvation. Howls of laughter erupted in the theater. Nothing good can come of this.

193. Phil - March 28, 2011

Everything is a clean slate moving forward. As yet another Trek bad guy bit the dust, the only loose ends revolve around getting the new ship and crew a proper shakedown and certification. As this would be mind numbingly dull to watch, and nothing was established indicating that the “historic five year mission” has to start immediately, I’d suggest not addressing that at all, and just position the next story 4-5 after the Narada incident. Also, remeber clean slate – no tie in’s at all to minor characters or plot devices. This neatly avoids the problem of what old Spock did or did not tell young Spock.

194. James - March 28, 2011

I think just like the dark knight had the joker that Star Trek may need Klingons in the sequel

195. John - March 28, 2011

Maybe it’s time to reboot Star Trek again, they’re doing it with Spiderman and Superman and soon after Transformers 3 when Bay is off his crappy films they’ll reboot that too!

196. rm10019 - March 28, 2011

Bob, thanks for this thread, fun to think in these terms regarding the next film.

I would say first season of TOS can have passed, i would love for the film to open with the exciting finale of a classic episode, retold as only you guys can, launching us into a new adventure,

197. AdamTrek - March 28, 2011

Less than two years in my opinion. A year tops. Even in that scenario, a relatively small group of people essentially living in a bottle will get to know each other very well very quickly, especially through the trials and tribulations and the inherent risk of their mission. The getting-to-know-each-other phase happens very quickly.

In other words, sequel time-frame doesn’t matter if it’s one, two years later. It’s all the same.

=A=

198. Janice - March 28, 2011

I didn’t cast a vote because I’m fine with any of them– just as long as it puts PIKE in the story. Above all, I want to see PIKE there!

Bring Back PIKE!

199. Christopher Roberts - March 28, 2011

In my heart, I can’t seem to stop myself voting for none. Straight back into that universe, with very little to explain as happening off-screen. Hollywood tends to (or they used to at any rate) cast actors playing younger than themselves. The way it currently stands, you can probably still get away with that for another film or two, before you can’t avoid how much older they actually look.

200. Spockanella - March 28, 2011

However much “time” passes between the events of the first movie and the second, I’m sure the writers will make it work. As Anthony pointed out, there are pluses and minuses for each scenario. After a fair bit of trepidation before the first movie came out, I’m now confident that the creator units can make something memorable.

At the risk of sounding heretical, though, I’d like to see very little if anything from TOS. TOS has been so studied and is so beloved that I think it’s gotten a little tired (and I’m a TOS fan). There’s an opportunity here to make things fresh. I hope that’s the tack that’s taken. I don’t want to see a rehash of any previous movies or episodes. This is a new universe. Let’s take advantage of it. I think that any references to the world we knew should be done carefully and within limits.

But that’s just my opinion. Any way it plays out you know I’ll be there to see it!

201. Christopher Roberts - March 28, 2011

Okay. I’ve gone with a few months. Since you need some gap for books, comics to fill with speculative (and fun) adventures.

Even DC managed to fill in the spaces between STIII and IV with the later contradicted idea, Kirk commanded the U.S.S. Excelsior and had a Klingon among the crew.

202. Christopher Roberts - March 28, 2011

200. That’s my view also. I find all this talk of episodes from Season 1 having happened the same way directly after ST09, somewhat annoying myself – as it shows a complete lack of imagination.

203. Christopher Roberts - March 28, 2011

202. (cont) The obvious conversation stopper to all this “Hooray! I get to have my Star Trek back but remake old episodes with $#*!loads of money” is to turn around and say, “So, er, can we have Amok Time then?”.

204. Tiberius Subprime - March 28, 2011

I want Telosians! They can be more menacing, darker, dangerous.

That way we can get Pike in it, too. (On a different ship, of course.)

This works, as the new timeline is different to the old, having things happen at different times can help create fresh stories.

Either that, or a completely fresh story that references Telosians, or other species / characters from season one.

205. Tom - March 28, 2011

# 179

Agree with you. That scene would have been awesome. Hopefully Bob can work something like that in. I remember Bob saying after the scene got scrapped that he would go ahead and write another.

206. Sundae Driver - March 28, 2011

My belief is that the time passed should equal the real time for us. In other words, if it’s been three years since the last movie, then it’s three years in the Star Trek universe.

Trying to pin the new stories to a timeline used in TOS really just wipes out the advantage that the 2009 story created. In other words, why create a new universe for these characters if you are just going to limit them to the stories told before?

If this were a new TV series, then we would want to see smaller, character-driven stories. Being a big-screen adventure means less character development and more action and excitement.

I’ve always believed that Star Trek was meant for television. The structure was ideal for telling the small stories you do in an hour and over a season. Much like Fringe and Hawaii 5-O, Star Trek is better suited as a weekly adventure.

After the 2009 movie came out, I was having dinner with David Gerrold and we both had high praise for the film. But he made a point that he doesn’t believe that the new film takes place in the original universe. Instead, he looks at it as a complete reboot of the concept. Once you accpet that, than the future is wide open for the next movie. Who cares if it’s a new idea or a revisit of an old idea…just as long is it is as well-written as the 2009 film and just as fun.

207. chrisfawkes.com - March 28, 2011

Do three movies then try to get the same crew in for a tv run of 13 episodes.

208. Christopher Roberts - March 28, 2011

25. & 41. Shame on you for suggesting the “just blow Khan up”. Gene Roddenberry must be spinning in his grave. Isn’t that like going back in time to kill Hitler or warning the authorities about incoming NY Pan-Am flights?

I mean where would that end? Could I resurrect the TNG crew and have them ensure Nero’s parents never meet? Prime Universe rules would still apply to the formation of the alternate one, I think you’ll find!

209. DS9 IN PRIME TIME - March 28, 2011

what ever they decide i know it will be good!

210. gingerly - March 28, 2011

@208

Alternate reality means that even if they did ensure that Nero’s parents did not meet, it would only effect the events for alt-Nero, not the Primeverse, from whence havoc-wreaking Nero came.

211. CardassiaPrimera - March 28, 2011

Bob se que hablas español por eso te pregunto: Falta mucho para que esté listo el borrador del guión de la nueva película???

212. Thomas Jensen - March 28, 2011

Do it in real time. The first trek motion picture took place a few years after the series, but the actors looked much older and it was hard to accept that the movie only took place 4 or so years after the last year of the mission when they were a decade older.

Besides, then you could have a redesign of the guppy Enterprise and get it a little closer to something we’d like to look at. The exterior isn’t quite right and the interior looks like a futuristic hospital.

213. Bugs Nixon - March 28, 2011

None. Or maybe just after “Where No Man Has Gone Before”… the 3d chess moment ‘Ah yes, one of your Earth emotions.’ We should be there pretty much.

I always felt the visual imagery of the ancillary products were richer and more vibrant than the show or movies could muster.

What you imagine Star Trek to be is what this film should be.

Colourful primary colours of the crew, set against stark bizzare alien worlds.

I’m hoping for a Galaxy Quest rock monster type vibe.

214. Christopher Roberts - March 28, 2011

208. Sorry. Correction – Not Pan-Am (that’s Lockerby – an attrocity frommy childhood). United Airlines & American Airlines were involved the infamous event.

210. I’m aware Nero’s existence would have to be taken out in the Prime Universe.

215. Christopher Roberts - March 28, 2011

214. (continued) prior to 2387 over there and before the destruction of Romulus obviously.

216. Harry Ballz - March 28, 2011

208.

Yeah, you’re right, Christopher! By the way, where did you grow up as a child again?

(setting time travel dial and………poof! Now, what were we talking about?) :>)

217. Planet Pandro - March 28, 2011

if they set the movie a year or two ahead of the last one it could be an original story, but…the title sequence could be clips from the original show, but “forrest gumping” the new actors into classic scenes. Chris Pine in a pile of Tribbles or fighting a Gorn, Karl Urban shooting the salt vampire, Simon Pegg zapped by Nomad etc…I know it’s set in an alternate universe but it would be a nod to the notion that alot of the original adventure were still there for the new cast to discover. Or if not the ‘forrest gump” effect, maybe full on re-creations of classic scenes, again as a title sequence.

218. Christopher Roberts - March 28, 2011

216. Believe or not, that wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. Nor would it have any effect on history! LOL

219. VZX - March 28, 2011

145: I thought that as well. So, instead of two years, why not just make it three in between the movies? Soooo, all the events that occured in the 79 episodes of TOS actually did happen, albeit somewhat differently, in the new timeline.

The 2012 movie could then start right after “Turnabout Intruder”, or whatever episode was last.

I remember Spock saying something in “City on the Edge of Forever” on how time is like a river, with currents,etc., and that fate will allow the events of the universe to transpire no matter what happened before. Something like predestination paradox. It all happened again.

220. Mel - March 28, 2011

@ 182

I really hope Carol Marcus and David will never appear again in Star Trek. And I also hope T’Pring is dead. There is no need to mention those characters again. Chapel on the other hand would be nice, especially if she is a doctor and not a mere nurse.

221. Iva - March 28, 2011

If T’Pring were dead, Spock would know and tell. He didn’t.

222. falcon - March 28, 2011

Well, I think we need to revisit just what an “alternate universe” means.

For example, in an alternate universe, the USSR might never have happened. The Apollo 13 astronauts might have reached the moon safely (assuming it was still the USA that put the first man on the moon). It might have been Ford that got bailed out. The Eugenics Wars might never have happened. Et cetera, ad nauseum.

The fact is, it’s an “alternate.” Now, if we want to get picky and use Nero’s incursion as the point at which the timeline deviated (remember Doc Brown’s blackboard in “Back To The Future II”), then we could safely assume both universes were one and the same up until that point, but after that point things began to diverge. So it’s entirely possible that none of the adventures of the crew of the USS Enterprise in the prime timeline ever happened.

No Gary Mitchell.
No Talos IV.
No doomsday machine or Matt Decker.
No Khan Noonien Singh.
No Gorn.
No Organia.
No Sigma Iotia IV (A Piece Of The Action)
No Triskelion
No Zetar

And, quite possibly, more Romulus, more Klingons, and other races that we might not even begin to imagine (Cygnians? Sirians [from Sirius, not Syria LOL]? Who else?)

We should hope and possibly even expect that the canvas laid out before the crew of the Enterprise is blank, because as Spock said (and I’m paraphrasing here), whatever their histories might have been, their destinies have been altered. Those prime timeline stories have already been told, and there’s been enough lack of imagination in Hollywood already (not including the Trek reboot, because that story had never been told).

223. skyjedi - March 28, 2011

To bad it has not been delayed near long enough for Paramount to make a Star Trek movie that is actually star trek set in the canon star trek universe and timeline, you know Roddenberry trek and not JJ Trek.

Last time was what 1991 unless you count the next generation as real star trek.

224. Dee - lvs moon' surface - March 28, 2011

# 25-87-108-136…. and again Harry Ballz …. continues to be so much fun! LOL…

# 90-99-110-121…. Mr.. Bob Orci…. is fun, too! … hmmm… boborci would be here so long if the script is still not ready? … and he seems excited… looks like someone who already has the job done! … I hope for the best, Mr. Bob Orci!!!! :-) :-)

And I would rather that the time between the premieres of the films was 2 years!

:-) :-)

225. MJ - March 28, 2011

@182. “* You could do a baseline story introducing the character of Saavik”

Since 99% of the Vulcan race is dead, it would strain believability to introduce Saavik; she almost certainly died on Vulcan.

If they had to introduce Saavik, I hope it would be in the vain of the unappreciated Robin Curtis version, not the vastly overrated emotional/sexy Kristie Alley version.

(On the other hand, maybe they should bring back Kristie Alley and the Shat together, and have two 300 pounders in the cast? Star Trek 2012: The Biggest Loser, with Gillian Michaels as their foil? LOL)

226. Phil - March 28, 2011

As far as “Forrest Gumping” the current crew into TOS scenes goes, have we forgot that those inserts of Forrest more or less served as comic relief?

A general timeline growing out if ST 2009 should be fairly organic. Vulcans will reestablish themselve on another world. Enterprise and crew will get their proper shakedown and certification. Starfleet will replace it’s lost ships…basically, life will go on. As the movie really didn’t establish an on-going threat to Kirk and crew or the Federation there is nothing stopping the writers from pushing forward with a clean slate. I really hope that is the direction they choose because it really makes no sense to try and make a movie that does nothing but shoehorn in a bunch of characters or is just canon driven. Create a fresh story, and move on.

227. gingerly - March 28, 2011

@224

Harry Ballz are always fun. :) …um, is.

…I meant to say is.

228. Bill Peters - March 28, 2011

I say less then a Year Bob, but then again I like for them to have had some bonding but let us in on the Process where around the 1 1/2 year mark.

I do want Gorn, Klingons, Nurse Chapel on Screen at least.

Bob you guys rock.

229. MJ - March 28, 2011

@222 “No Gary Mitchell. No Talos IV. No doomsday machine or Matt Decker.
No Khan Noonien Singh. No Gorn. No Organia. No Sigma Iotia IV (A Piece Of The Action) No Triskelion No Zetar”

Actually, these are all still in place. I think what you are saying though is that the Enterprise will not likely encounter most of these since they would be in the wrong place at the wrong time….I agree with you there. As I said earlier, it is not just the time, but the Enterprises place in space at that time, that makes these connections, for the most part, unlikely to repeat in the new universe.

230. Bill Peters - March 28, 2011

or at least Kang, Kolth or Kor.

231. Bill Peters - March 28, 2011

or Lt. Riley, he always seems to be annoying at best

232. slpstrmr - March 28, 2011

this was an interesting read.. but all the comments about bringing in old TOS ideas to this ST:NU confuse me.. and i am a pretty die-hard fan.. my license plate is Ncc-1864 on a 1986 dodge reliant, painted up to look like hull plateing (i used several different grey paints and sticker trim).. dosent anyone realize that with the destruction of Vulcan.. just like the Amagoza Star.. has altered the gravity and energy of the system.. therefore how would the Doomsday/Vger know where to go? someone mentioned on here about the fact they come from different areas of space.. well we all know that alternate universe means alternate actions… so i agree with most of you that the series should find new themes to explore.. and YES.. like TOS.. be more politically agenda (see AVaTAR and you’ll get it) and more space bound… i did think the battle scene opening was the most amazing fight sequence in space in a long time…. very visceral and felt right.. and yes.. the PLUMBING ENGINEERING section does need to be revamped… it looked a bit too post industrial… although as an engineer.. i understood the idea.. it fits with our current 2011 methodology of technology.. we have smaller and smaller electronic devices yet we still build huge bulky machinery to power them … anyone noticed the size of the nukereactors and hydroelectric dams??… hell.. look at the size of a windfarm generator and it puts out a patheticly small amount of power to size ratio… so ya.. the engineering section does look like a big hydrostation.. but think of the power requirments needed to energize a warp core.. it doesnt surprise me the engineering section is almost the same size as the Hover Dam..lol.. per the timeline gap..so they look older.. who dosent in a sequel? (well except for the LOTR guys.. they just looked worn out.. :-P)FOR ME it never really mattered in any of the TV series.. it was alwyas just another stardate (and no.. im not so much of a geek to remember or even follow if they were consecutive.. were they?? i always thought stardate was a “reletive to position of earth” thing anyways… so as long as the writers do the same job…. FRAK’N AWSOME …. who really cares.. as long as its “G.R. Ideology” then its trek and im a 40year fan still and counting…. (yes.. i remember watching Kirk with my parents and asking why that man has a big veiny head?) oh.. and to the person who asked about size of a stardestroyer vs constitution class….. nothing in TREK should ever be compared to SW.. that is just wrong…

233. AJ - March 28, 2011

29: Harry, did you say they should put hookers in the new film?

No. I’ve re-read it. It’s Erica Durance working at Hooters once she’s done with her stint on “Superboy 1999.” Yuk-Yuk.

I don’t think hookers fit in to GR’s vision of the future (except for the ones in ‘The Cage’ and ‘Wolf in The Fold’), so I would definitely leave them OUT.

Even TJ Hooker.

234. P Technobabble - March 28, 2011

I want to see Kirk slide across the hood of the Enterprise.

235. NuFan - March 28, 2011

223.

No, I don’t count the old stuff as the real Star Trek. But I don’t harass the people that do and I don’t whine on the internet about it.

236. MJ - March 28, 2011

@235. Well said!

237. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 28, 2011

All of the Events in Tos will still happen in the new universe. Now weather or not the Enterprise will be in that section of space is an open question. The Dooms day machine is still headed towards Rigel. Organia is still in Prime Space for the Federation and Kligons to try and use as a base. Gary Mitchel could still get zapped by the barrier on another Star ship. Khan is still on the S.S Botany Bay waiting for someone to find them. All of these and more are still going to happen. Just may not be the Enterprise that finds them.

238. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 28, 2011

I know. Erica Durance can play Edith Keeler. I’m sure Harry would be happy to see her Die. Lol

239. trazoc - March 28, 2011

Thanks, Bob. For giving us the inique opportunity to participate (if even in a very small way)

240. John from Cincinnati - March 28, 2011

Option 2

Only a few episodes should have passed:

The Cage
Where no man has gone before
Mudds Women
The Naked Time
Charlie X
What are Little Girls Made Of
Miri
Conscience of the King
The Man Trap

That leaves such classics for the big screen: Balance of Terror, Arena, Space Seed, City on the Edge of Forever

241. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 28, 2011

Amy Adams cast as Lois Lane?

Who’d ‘ave thought it?

Check out:

http://www.nme.com/movies/news/amy-adams-cast-as-lois-lane-in-new-superman/209997

242. Damian - March 28, 2011

I think some people are forgetting that the events of the original series are still several years in the future for this new crew, about 8 to 10 years in the future. So unless the writers jump ahead about that period of time, a lot of those events are unlikely to occur yet.

Besides, with a new, alternate universe, the idea was to create new, original stories. If they just decide to redo episodes from the original series, what would be the point. The remastered episodes of the original series did a great job of showing the episodes with current special effects. I don’t feel a need to redo or reboot episodes. I want something fresh. I want to go where no one has gone before.

243. The TOS Purist aka The Purolator - March 28, 2011

What many people fail to realize is that it is impossible for many of the TOS episodes to take place in the new timeline. Nero may have come back in time and messed things up with the Enterprise crew personally, but other things (like when the Gorn attack Cestus III, for instance) would happen in the same time in both universes (2266), whereas the reboot movie took place in 2258. So a lot of time would have had to pass…

Plus, don’t forget that episodes like “Journey to Babel” can’t happen, since they killed off Amanda AND Vulcan.

244. Trek Nerd Central - March 28, 2011

The real question for Mr. Bob: Will Kirk sport one of those ridiculous pea-green wraparound uniforms?

Also: when do I get my JJ bobblehead?

245. MJ - March 28, 2011

@237 “All of the Events in Tos will still happen in the new universe. Now weather or not the Enterprise will be in that section of space is an open question. The Dooms day machine is still headed towards Rigel. Organia is still in Prime Space for the Federation and Kligons to try and use as a base. Gary Mitchel could still get zapped by the barrier on another Star ship. Khan is still on the S.S Botany Bay waiting for someone to find them. All of these and more are still going to happen. Just may not be the Enterprise that finds them.”

Exactly. You and I seem to be part of a very small minority that understands this. Everyone else is just looking at the time-line. When you factor in the location of the ship as well as time, then it is very unlikely (in most cases) that the same Enterprise missions would repeat TOS episode stories.

Commodore, can you please send out a wide dispersal agonizer field burst that will hit everyone else, except you and I at the center. I think that may “assist” people in getting what we are trying to say regarding the Enterprise’s location in space.

246. jordan - March 28, 2011

Only a little bit of time should have elapsed between XI and the sequel.

Part of the promise of XI was the idea that we would get to witness the bonds forming among the core seven characters. XI already had the beginnings of this: Uhura owes her promotion to bridge to Kirk. Kirk owes his life to Sulu, and they both owe their lives to Chekov. Scotty owes Kirk for getting him off Delta Vega. Etc.

These are all new and exciting relationship wrinkles that didn’t exist in TOS. Go with them! How is Sulu and Chekov’s friendship different now that it’s begun with Chekov saving Sulu’s life? How do Spock and Chekov deal with each other after Chekov “lost” Spock’s mother (sort of)? How do Kirk and Uhura deal with each other now that their relationship has kicked off on such a contentious note? How do Spock and Uhura deal with having been student and professor?

I would be super bummed if the sequel speeds forward years after the fact and just skips over all these really prime character interactions.

247. DESSTRUXION - March 28, 2011

I’ve seen the original episodes. I don’t want to see them rehashed. If they encounter the Botany Bay in this universe I hope they blow it up and move on. We need something new to see like strange new worlds and such…….remember that? It’s been awhile.

248. Trek Nerd Central - March 28, 2011

#245. I think most of us understand this.

That said, it’s still entirely possible that events may unfold similarly in this newfangled Trekiverse. They don’t have to, and they probably won’t. . . but they could. (Beyond the fact that Vulcan doesn’t exist, which means we won’t be seeing a new spin on “Amok Time.”)

249. Jim Nightshade - March 28, 2011

Note to self–stop shaving certain bodily parts to have more fun…..hmmmmmmm

Or was that comment regarding one fun person only hahaah

250. AJ - March 28, 2011

Another question to ask:

What events in the ‘old’ timeline are critical to the development of these characters?

Obviously, “The Menagerie” is a big Spock episode, but that special relationship is gone in the JJverse now that everyone jumped into the shower together with Pike.

“City” won’t be referen$$ed for obvious reasons, but “Operation Annihilate” and “Conscience of the King” are two big Kirk eps. Did the events with Kodos actually take place in Kirk2′s life?

“Amok Time” is big-league character development, but Spock’s “Do what feels right” advice in ST09 may make emotional behavior more a part of Spock2′s behavior.

Question back to the Supreme Court: What experiences should our heroes have had already to become the individuals in the film you are writing? You have the flexibility of a spanking new universe. Watch the shows again and decide, if you have not already.

251. trekprincess - March 28, 2011

I just want the film to be brilliant and more character moments:)

252. cd - March 28, 2011

241 – Amy Adams as Lois Lane? OK. Then Olivia Wilde as Lara if she is not busy playing T’Pring. >;>}

253. Harry Ballz - March 28, 2011

224.

Thanks, Dee!

227.

Naughty girl, gingerly!

233.

AJ, Gene thought about hookers, but only in present day.

238.

Commodore Mike, I’d be happy to drive the truck!

249.

Jim, get your OWN groupies!

254. Stargazer54 - March 28, 2011

Ok, I change my vote to a few months have passed. But at least enough time for Scotty to fix engineering to his liking (and ours). And tune up the nacelles.

Yes the timeline has split. Any adventures from TOS are left back in the prime timeline. Don’t do a rehash of a TOS episode. Still there are similarities and things that cross both timelines.

Plus . . . the destruction of Vulcan eats at me still . . .

I was surprised that in all the calls for reference to previous episodes, that the Guardian of Forever has only been mentioned a couple of times.

The Guardian, even in the alt timeline, is surely still sitting out there waiting . . . “for a question”.

So at the risk of contradicting myself . . . .
After the Enterprise is severely buffeted about due to huge deformations in space/time, it is Spock, who injured and delusional, beams down to the planet and becomes grief stricken over the death of his mother. As he crouches near an oddly shaped archway made out of the bedrock he speaks aloud to himself, perhaps sobbing, “Why? Why couldn’t I have gotten there sooner?”

The Guardian lights up out of its slumber and offers Spock a choice.

But if he jumps through the portal to save his mother and or Vulcan, there is a heavy price to pay. And we’re not talking Edith Keeler.

If he at least saves Amanda, then this brings us around to a struggling planet – New Vulcan. Vulnerable and weakly defended. New Vulcan would be easy prey for an Andorian attack fleet. But maybe the Andorians are merely offering aid to an old enemy? Command decision for Kirk: Andorians – friend or foe?

Just my $.02.

255. Phil - March 28, 2011

Again, any and all of TOS events could occur in this retlling of the tale, That dosent mean any of them will ever get the big screen treatment. Tell a new story, consistant with this universe, and move on. This will sell, as long as it’s good.

256. John - March 28, 2011

Reboot Trek again it can’t hurt!

257. rogue_alice - March 28, 2011

Let the 1701 have more “star” time.

258. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 28, 2011

#245 M.J. Hey I have tried to Explain that. Yes. New Time Line. But. Just because new Time line for Kirk and the Enterprise did noting to change the fact that The Doomsday Machine is stil out there. Yonada is still on a collision course. The Giant Space Ameba is still on the loose. Those creatures that drove everyone mad and killed Kirks Brother well. They are still coming. The S.S Botany Bay is still drifting. V Ger is still coming and the Whale Probe is still there. None of those events would be changed by Nero altering the timeline. The Only thing that would change is would the Enterprise be there to see it or stop it. So for everyone who does not understand what Harry Ballz. M.J and my self have stated many times. YOUR AGONISER!!!. YOUR AGONISER PLEASE!!!!!!

259. Plum - March 28, 2011

Time always moves at the speed of plot. If anyone complains, tell ‘em a wizard did it.

260. dubb - March 28, 2011

How about starting off a year or so after the end of the last film with some intense drama opening the new film, but then flashing back to the end of the last film and what led to this new drama, then ending with a surprise cliffhanger. There’s no doubt there will be at least 3, so why not leave us with something to argue and discuss for another couple of years!

261. Tony Todd's Tears - March 28, 2011

Bob,

Thank you for asking for our input. I know that you guys will write a great movie. I’m looking forward to seeing it.

Sniff, Sniff… Dad! We’re going to rescue you!!!!

262. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 28, 2011

@220

I am not sure i like your “a mere nurse” statement.

There is nothing “mere” about nursing in this century or in the 23rd I’ll bet.

I have been “mere” nursing for almost 20 years and find your statement offensive.

I now teach doctors and nurses in a busy hospital here in NZ.

I am sure even “mere” nurse Chapel did not find her profession that low in her professional context even when she advanced to doctorhood.

…and yes I am a “mere” man who is happily married, with children and a nursing background.
….I must have been more progressive than I thought……

263. Harry Ballz - March 28, 2011

261.

BSS

I’ve always known that nurses work harder, and are usually more knowledgable, than anyone else in the medical profession. It’s a shame that more people don’t recognize that fact.

264. Dr. Cheis - March 28, 2011

[A warning, this thread is way too long and I'm not planning to read all the comments, so I may be repeating what's been said already.]

I would prefer very little time passes between movies. Although that does set a prescient for future movies that may be hard to follow if the actors keep aging 3 years for every month or so that passes in-universe, I think it’s for the best.

I didn’t like how the TOS movies skipped years between films 1 and 2, and 5 and 6. We missed huge changes to the characters, like how the crew of the E went from exploring new worlds in a newly-refit Enterprise to training cadets. There’s no real cannon explanation of what Captain Spock does when Kirk isn’t around to call an emergency for him. (It’s logical to assume Spock was on the Enterprise A in “Final Frontier” just because he happened to be sharing shore leave time with Kirk when an emergency struck, but “Undiscovered Country” seems to imply he spent most of his time elsewhere and was only assigned to the Enterprise due to the Klingon emergency). And of course we went straight from a shiny new Enterprise-A to “soon-to-be-retired.”)

And it still feels to me like the characters in the ’09 movie haven’t earned the right to “replace” the originals, although they have earned their jobs. I think it would be best if another movie or two pass before they are supposed to be the same age as their TOS counterparts.

As for how well they get along, well, do whatever you need to do to make the movie work. You can say the Nero incident brought them together to explain why they’re close now when they weren’t in the last movie. You don’t even have to say it; I think the ending of the last one implied it pretty well.

265. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 28, 2011

@262

Cheers for the support Ballzy.

I’m sure the statement was not meant to be offensive. I am very proud of my achievements and protective of my profession.

Go for it Nurse Chapel!!!

266. Phil - March 28, 2011

@220..here in the 21st century some nursing specialties require a doctorate degree, so “mere nurse” is a bit of an insult. Medical professionals are also commissioned in todays military, so I’d expect them to be held in similar esteem in the future…

267. Phil - March 28, 2011

RE: 266

My wife is an RN, working on her Masters. Expects to be a Nurse Practicioner (sp?) in a couple of years. Very, very proud of her.

268. StarFuryG7 - March 28, 2011

#48. keachick
“The prime universe is not undone and not being rewritten. This is a new MWI branched off universe, which is very similar to the prime universe and in other ways not. There is no looming question, never was.”

And what exactly do you base that on –something that’s actually in the film, or according to what one of its writers had to say outside of the film in an interview somewhere?

Because that right there is what’s been the problem. And Yes, it’s been a problem in certain corners of the fandom whether the broader base of people who liked the film choose to acknowledge it or not. I know people who despise the first film because of the way it trampled established canon according to how it all played out, thereby making a mockery of everything in their view. There is nothing in the movie that substantively points to it being an MWI scenario AT ALL.

On the contrary, the film went absolutely out of its way to duck addressing that particular issue, and it’s not something they deserve a pass on because of the sheer magnitude of what’s at stake.

269. MJ - March 28, 2011

@266 @267

Guys, I could not agree more. While probably unintended, Mel’s (see @220) condescension towards nurses is not fair or deserved. My wife, a nurse, has a masters degree and specialized training in ICU and several other disciplines. Nurses are also some of the hardest working people on the planet, and there are many male nurses entering the field now as well.

270. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 28, 2011

What does “MWI” stand for?

I am not familiar with this (or most other) textspeak acronyms.

I am sure it mean “multi” something something…

271. StarFuryG7 - March 28, 2011

#166. Dom
“It’s an alt-universe as far as I’m concerned, so Nimoy’s Spock might as well disclose everything he knows. I see the Prime Universe (TOS) as a universe extrapolated from Earth of the 1960s, the other ‘Prime Universe’ (TNG and its companions) as a universe extrapolated from 1980s California, which selectively incorporates bits of TOS into its backstory (I won’t incorporate TOS and TNG into one universe – they’re too different) and the new movie based on Earth of the 2000s.”

In other words, you’re picking and choosing what you prefer to believe rather than what actually stands as canon. I could do that with ST09 myself, but I don’t like the way the film took a “have your cake and eat it too” approach to dodging that question altogether.

272. Jack - March 28, 2011

225. Well, she was half-Romulan and not raised on Vulcan.So it’s still remotely possible. It’s cool to hear from a Curtis-Saavik fan, me, I much preferred Alley’s. But right now, Spock’s not much older than she was in Trek ii.

Personally, I’d like to see more of the Romulans in one of these flicks (big Balance of Terror fan) — the 23rd century guys. Again, I like the idea of a thriller/conspiracy/mystery/political/whocanyoutrust/coldwar type thing on top of all the exploration. The Romulans never quite lived up to the promise shown in Terror. They never really had a clear motovation or identity after that…

273. StarFuryG7 - March 28, 2011

#270. Battle-scarred Sciatica
“What does ‘MWI’ stand for?”

“Many Worlds Interpretation”, which is a quantum theory that posits the existence of countless multiple universes in addition to our own.

274. MJ - March 28, 2011

@272. Jack, I get why you and most fans like Alley’s portrayal of Saavik better than Curtis’s. But answer me this, forgetting who you liked the best, who was the more credible Vulcan of the two?

275. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 28, 2011

Thanks StarFuryG7.

I had guessed it was related to some quantum multiverse theory.

I get easily confused with new abbreviations.

I remember the good ol’ days when there was just a couple….TNT, LBW etc.

Nowadays everybastardtitle is abbreviated….

….I also remember when LOL meant “lots of love”…..LOL, LOL

276. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

245: “Exactly. You and I seem to be part of a very small minority that understands this. Everyone else is just looking at the time-line.”

That’s not true, MJ. I understand your point, but the objection is not a hard obstacle.

Let’s continue with the Talosian idea, whether or not that’s what the movie is about. Just as an example.

Nero’s incursion in time alters things in such a way that Pike never goes to Talos IV. Indeed, since the name Delta Vega was given to a moon or planet near Vulcan in ST.09, it’s now a possibility that the names of worlds will not be consistent between universes, so Talos IV may not now be called Talos IV. It could easily be called something else.

Okay. So Pike never goes to Talos IV. In this case there was no Enterprise in the vicinity, and no Pike to investigate a mysterious signal.

Which means it’s possible to write that world as still needing exploration, as being uncharted, as being a largely unknown world.

Now with the destruction of Vulcan and the surviving Vulcans needing someplace to live, that might easily become a candidate world for the Vulcans to be relocated to.

All that remains is for the world to be surveyed. The Enterprise gets sent on a mission to survey this world for possible inhabitation by the Vulcans.

OR — perhaps Vulcans are already being located there and contact is lost or there is something suspicious about what messages Starfleet IS receiving from the relocated Vulcans, and once again the Enterprise pulls a mission to investigate.

So off the top of my head there’s two ways that we still get to go to Talos IV (now called something else) which flow from events in the first movie and have nothing to do with the reasons Pike went there in The Cage. So the Enterprise still gets to go there in the Newniverse, but for totally different reasons.

If you are making a point which I’m missing, you’ll have to explain to me why either of the above scenarios would be impossible for Bob to write.

277. Rico - March 28, 2011

I definitely think more than just a few months would be the best way to play the gap. Not sure if it has to be 2-3 years has gone by. I think if it was me I would go with maybe about a year of time has gone by. I certainly don’t see them trying to pick up right where Trek 2009 left off. That would be kind of silly in my view.

278. Phil - March 28, 2011

274. MJ – March 28, 2011

Carol Burnett…

279. OneBuckFilms - March 28, 2011

276 – Spock Prime having picked out a world upon which to establish a Vulcan Colony tells me he would have forewarned them of Talos IV, and prevented them from settling there.

Canon plot-hole of sorts.

280. Jack - March 28, 2011

yep, it’s likely that the planet is still there, and still has Talosians and they’re still short and creepy. not sure of the math, but Vina might have even crashed there before Nero screwed things up. why would its name be changed (the 4th planet in the Talos system)?

and someone above talked about the d of vulcan meaning nearby ships would have to make minor course corrections etc. just like after the blast waves in Generations. Okay, maybe a couple new black holes might affect things too, like wind might affect a ship’s course. The ribbon was written as a natural phenomenon and the changes were, presumably, a few thousand kilometers, so things like v’ger, the planet eater etc. would still presumably figure out where they were going, where Earth is etc. Not that I want to see those guys.

281. gingerly - March 28, 2011

@272

Orci has on multiple occasions made clear that the Prime Universe’s timeline remains unaltered (except for the destruction of Romulus and the mysterious disappearance of Spock and Nero’s mining vessel).

Spock, himself, makes this clear during his Sherlock Holmes moment.

282. gingerly - March 28, 2011

er, that last post was meant for StarFury @ #268

*how the heck did I skip forward four posts??*

283. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

276 – Spock Prime having picked out a world upon which to establish a Vulcan Colony tells me he would have forewarned them of Talos IV, and prevented them from settling there.

Canon plot-hole of sorts.

***

We open on Spock Prime’s funeral.

284. MJ - March 28, 2011

@276. @279

Agreed — Spock has the foreknowledge to avoid settling Vulcans on a problematical world related to the TOS episodes.

DM, in general, I will agree with your argument that is would be basically OK in developing plots to find some plausible ways to cherry-pick the Enterprise being involved in perhaps a small handful of the TOS stories still despite the timeline and space location issues. However, the vast majority of TOS episodes will now NEVER happen with the new Enterprise crew now becuase of both the time-line and the space location issues. But also other starship crews however may now “run into” TOS stories…which may create some opportunities for some cool novels.

285. James - March 28, 2011

The Klingons had the Narada for what? Approx 2 decades or so? That will almost certainly have an effect on the balance of power in the new time line – will we see Starfleet become even more militarised as a result? (think star trek 6 where crews quarters were shared occupancies with numerous bunks and the classification of federation ships – enterprise classed as a heavy cruiser) The federation will still be reeling from the loss of Vulcan (Will the federation council chamber be making a re-appearance?) What of why the main fleet was engaged in another system during the Narada engagement? There are so many things here that can ve weaved together to create a hell of a story – Will the federation become stronger through these events or is it going to face its most challenging time yet – i cant wait to hopefully find out!!!

286. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

280: “Vina might have even crashed there before Nero screwed things up. why would its name be changed (the 4th planet in the Talos system)?”

Why would Delta Vega be a moon/world near Vulcan? That means the world in Delta Vega in TOS is probably called something else in the Newniverse.

The principle is established.

287. Jack - March 28, 2011

274. Troubled, angry Vulcan? Totally Alley. ;).

What are your thoughts on Curtis vs. Cattrall? Cattrall’s vulcan wasn’t quite so lackluster.

I found the TNG vulcans really boring, they all had the same bad wigs and that robotic, slightly smug delivery — in TOS, Spock was serene, and controlled, but never bland. Same with Sarek and the Vulcans in Amok Time. They all had charisma. T’Pau. T’Pring. Even Stonn. There was a lot going on under the surface. Actually, even Curtis herself was a little better in that TNG episode where Picard’s undercover.

288. MJ - March 28, 2011

@283 “We open on Spock Prime’s funeral.”

“REMEMBER!”

289. MJ - March 28, 2011

@287. Catrall was pretty good, but she also showed too much emotion for my tasted for a Vulcan.

290. MJ - March 28, 2011

@286. Regardless of the name change, Spock prime would still recognize the star system and make sure that the Vulcans avoid it.

You really would have to open with Spock’s funeral to make this plausible.

291. BeatleJWOL - March 28, 2011

@ 268
“I know people who despise the first film because of the way it trampled established canon according to how it all played out, thereby making a mockery of everything in their view. There is nothing in the movie that substantively points to it being an MWI scenario AT ALL.
On the contrary, the film went absolutely out of its way to duck addressing that particular issue, and it’s not something they deserve a pass on because of the sheer magnitude of what’s at stake.”

Clearly, they, as well as you, slept through this scene right here:
Spock: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold – the contrary. Nero’s very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
Uhura: An alternate reality…
Spock: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been if the time continuum was disrupted – our destinies have changed.

The above is a potentially inaccurate transcript from IMDB, but the words “alternate reality” and Spock’s reply of “Precisely” are absolutely found in the film. Not only is it a fantastic “revelation” scene played out through Spock (as happened in many episodes; the most recent one that comes to mind is Spock’s last minute speech in “Spectre of the Gun”), but it lays out exactly why the film did NOT have to adhere to canon.

The only argument ignored by the film is whether or not the prime universe ceased to exist at the moment that Nero emerged from the black hole. If you then agree that the Countdown comics are also canon (unusual, but that’s what THEY said), then the (admittedly brief, if I recall correctly) scenes of the Prime universe after Spock’s ship disappears into the black hole would suggest that in fact, Nero time traveled into the past and created a new reality (and here’s where my non-canon theory begins) because of the presence of red matter, a substance that we do not fully understand.

~

All that said, I’m in favor of at least a year or two having gone by, film time. There’s still a lot to learn about all of these characters; things have changed.

292. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

284: “However, the vast majority of TOS episodes will now NEVER happen with the new Enterprise crew now becuase of both the time-line and the space location issues.”

And I think that’s the point of rebooting the franchise in the way that they did. So they aren’t STUCK redoing what happened before.

As for Spock Prime having foreknowledge of Talos IV…that’s not a hard obstacle either.

And it even has precedent: In TWOK they found themselves on Khan’s world by mistake. I know Chekov was in the bathroom during the whole Space Seed episode, but the point is that he KNEW about Khan in the movie, and Chekov only realized where they were too late.

Remember, Spock makes mistakes. He’s not infallible. He was the cause of the black hole that split the universes. He failed trying to save Romulus though that was his purpose. He got Kirk jailed on Rura Penthe by volunteering him for a setup mission (without knowing it, of course).

Spock is NOT infallible. And changing the name may be a way of throwing him off…until it’s too late.

293. MJ - March 28, 2011

@292 “Spock is NOT infallible. And changing the name may be a way of throwing him off…until it’s too late.”

Hmm, that would have to be a bit of a stretch given how important Talos 4 was to Spock’s personal history…it is not like it was just another planet on a typical TOS episode. That would strain the credibility for me at least is Spock forgot about that star system or got the planets mixed up within the system. I’d frankly prefer they killed off Spock rather than having him suffer the final indignity of forgetting or misplacing planets in the Talos system.

294. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

So you give Spock a nice funeral and inter his body on New Vulcan (Talos IV).

If you didn’t want to go that far, you give a plausible reason why Spock Prime missed it. A planetary name change could be part — PART — of the reason why he missed it. Remember, in the ice cave Spock Prime is surprised that Kirk is NOT the Captain, so Spock may be assuming too much about what has changed and what has remained the same between universes.

295. StarFuryG7 - March 28, 2011

277. Rico
“I definitely think more than just a few months would be the best way to play the gap. Not sure if it has to be 2-3 years has gone by. I think if it was me I would go with maybe about a year of time has gone by. I certainly don’t see them trying to pick up right where Trek 2009 left off. That would be kind of silly in my view.”

I don’t think they should let them fall into the trap that the original cast fell into with a few too many of their films, with one picking up right around where the prior film had left off. These actors are going to age –Zachary Quinto will already be into his mid-thirties practically by the time the next film gets released. By the time the third film comes out, assuming one gets produced, he’ll be moving from his mid-to-late thirties. I’m not looking to single him out by any means, but only to make the point: look at how old the original actors were when they were filming the original series for television. And we don’t want these guys to remain just ‘kids’ forever. We want them to grow into their roles and mature some with the passage of time. Or at least I would hope so anyway.

296. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

I DO agree however that just like Kirk getting his ass beat every ten minutes, we don’t want Spock turning into a bumbling old fool who’s getting Starfleet into jam after jam.

I think the first option is best.

297. Hugh Hoyland - March 28, 2011

I still like the idea of the Talosians, but as has been mentioned Bob said no to that. :[ Still would love to see the Gorn as well!

I Just wish Bob would e-mail me whats they have so far so I can at least proof it for them! ;}

298. TrekMadMeWonder - March 28, 2011

Do what is logical.

Option 1,

FIX IT ALL.

.

.

.

.

.

.

…you broke me enterprise and i want it back.

299. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

However, will say this. Remember, the Newniverse is NOT Spock Prime’s HOME universe. He’s a permanent VISITOR. In the Newniverse, Spock QUINTO is the HOME Spock. So I would expect that there are plenty of surviving Vulcan leadership still existing who would be in charge RATHER than Spock Prime who is actually an orphan.

I think assuming that Spock Prime automatically falls into the highest leadership position in the new universe when he has no history in it and nobody knows who he is, is actually a stretch for ME.

WE know how special Spock Prime is, but why would anybody else in the new universe move out of his way and hand over leadership when they presumably still have their own leaders?

And if THAT is the case, then we could find ourselves on Talos IV simply because Spock Prime did not have that much control over who searched where.

300. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 28, 2011

Well put dmduncan!

The point was to create a totally new direction without totally destroying what came before it.

Like you said, no-one is perfect and everyone has the potential to make mistakes…..whoops there goes another universe….damn!

Even sensors and starships miss things! How the hell do you not realise there is a massive dog-roll coming to destroy the earth/speak to humpback (people, sir?) whales until it is sitting on top of Spacedock?!!? etc etc etc….we could (and probably will) go on forever…

I like to think that both Trek universes have bifurcated at a point, heading off in tandem but are gradually drifting apart from each other.

301. HectorMann - March 28, 2011

I kind of hope that we pick up a few months later with Kirk and the crew having done almost nothing but monotonous exploration of some fauna planets that only intrigues Spock.

That way everyone, even Kirk, is questioning what Nero and Spock Prime said about their destiny.

Then the tribbles invade and all hell breaks loose. :D

302. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

@300: Thank you!

303. El Chup - March 28, 2011

Since the crew are much younger than their prime universe counterparts why would they have had any of the adventures seen in TOS? Not only are they exploring the galaxy years before the Shatner/Nimoy crew, but its a different universe that already has distinct differences?

I say two years have passed and during that time they have had all new adventures.

304. Maj - March 28, 2011

I’d rather the opening scene be the Enterprise en route to somewhere exciting, and we just jump right through the story.

Not really favoring possible “flashbacks” such as that in Lost, but references to classic TOS episodes and past characters would make a treat.

305. MJ - March 28, 2011

@299. So since Spock is not the leader, then they all ignore his advice that Talos 4 is extremely dangerous and they should not settle there. That is pretty weak, DM. While I can buy him not being the leader, I certainly can’t buy the leadership ignoring his advice on specific planets to avoid settling.

306. keachick - March 28, 2011

#268 Nothing is being rewritten, or crapped on, or whatever. Bob Orci, please explain the “Many Worlds Interpretation” which is what the alternate universe/timeline is based on.

To another poster, who said that Pike and Spock could not have been to Talos IV because the Enterprise had not been built is wrong. What we saw in the Iowa shipyards was, I assume, the next Enterprise under construction. That is what Kirk, wearing that leather jacket and riding that bike (that everyone wants), was looking at. There have been many Enterprises and the new Enterprise that Pike told Spock to look after was the next one in a series.

There is no reason why Captain Pike and first officer Spock could not have visited Talos IV or anywhere else for that matter, while Kirk was studying at the Starfleet Academy. Being a tutor was just one of Spock’s duties.

Bob is playing with us, giving us little clues, sending us down various “garden paths” etc. I suspect he is also under a Paramount gag order, non-disclosure agreement, when it comes to saying exactly what is in the new script. Thank you for coming here to share what you can with us, Bob Orci.

Hope to see a beagle and a Menosian lady Jasmia or Larina…she has a couple of unusual physiological features, as in she MUST have a baby by the time she reaches 30 years of age…and she and an alien Kirk are in love.
Menosian women don’t/won’t/can’t do the artificial insemination/IVF stuff, however pollyandry is quite common in Menosian culture…

307. MJ - March 28, 2011

@300. But Spock forgetting star systems and misplacing planets…no, I would not buy that. Human characters yes, but not Spock. Can you picture how the other surviving Vulcans would react? Some probably already blame him for the destruction of Vulcan, and “now this Spock walking disaster takes us to Talos 4 and gets more of us killed.” :-)

308. MJ - March 28, 2011

@306, Keachick, please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

309. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

305: “While I can buy him not being the leader, I certainly can’t buy the leadership ignoring his advice on specific planets to avoid settling.”

Who says he gets to give his advice at all? Or, maybe he does give advice: Avoid Talos IV at all costs. Which Kirk does. Only since Talos IV is a different planet and system in teh new universe, Talos IV is not the planet on which the Talosians (now called something different) exist in the new universe.

The actual PLANET is in the same place but since it was named Talos IV on a date in the Prime universe that occurs AFTER Nero’s incursion in that past, his incursion affects (Butterfly Effect) the naming process in the NEW universe and it is then named something else, and the name Talos IV is given to some other world that does NOT have big brained psychics trying to cage humans.

So Kirk avoids Talos IV, but Talos IV is no longer the world to avoid. NOW the world to avoid is the New Vulcan candidate world.

310. Phil - March 28, 2011

301. HectorMann – March 28, 2011

Or even more monotonous shake down and qualification of ship and crew?

Something that got lost in the cadet to captain debate was that Enterprise was brand spanking new, too. From the time a vessel is launched it can take a couple of years to commission, and addition shakedowns can run several months beyond that. Pike alluded that Enterprise had not had a proper maiden voyage, so yeah, once post-Narada repairs were done I’d expect the Big E to be back in port for a while.

311. dmb1138 - March 28, 2011

I’m casting my vote for somewhere around the 6 months to 1 year mark, they’ve worked together, they know each other, not lifelong friends or anything, but becoming a ‘family unit’. I definitely want to see more of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic. And in my opinion, no references to specific episodes or experiences are really necessary. . But man o man would I love some nasty old school Klingons to butt heads with, with maybe a Gorn or an Andorian thrown into the mix. As far as whether it’s too early for certain races to be showing up, I guess I’m not that concerned, since this is a new universe, a clean slate. I’ve been watching the original since about 1973, and I’ve got them all on DVD, so I say shake it up with these new movies, if you want a certain creature/race represented, I say put them in! Make the sequel a celebration of what we know and love about the original show! Wow, rambling, I had a point there, sorry!

And here’s a pathetic PS, a question about ST09 for Bob Orci or anyone out there who can help me: when Spock and Kirk go aboard Spock Prime’s ship and find the red matter, how exactly does Spock realize that Kirk has been keeping information from him. Is it just the ‘gee, that’s weird’ line that Kirk says, or is there something else that I’m just completely missing? Loved the movie, if you’re reading this Bob, great work to all of you, I can’t wait for the next one!

312. StarFuryG7 - March 28, 2011

281. gingerly – March 28, 2011
@272

“Orci has on multiple occasions made clear that the Prime Universe’s timeline remains unaltered (except for the destruction of Romulus and the mysterious disappearance of Spock and Nero’s mining vessel).”

And the good Mr. Orci made those declarations outside of the film, rather than including them in the script.

“Spock, himself, makes this clear during his Sherlock Holmes moment.”

No, what’s determined there is that their destinies have changed as a result of the Narada’s incursion into the past (their present in that scene) and Nero’s thereby changing the timeline as a result. What that scene itself stands to indicate, if anything, is that the timeline is in fact being rewritten rather than the Narada having emerged from the black hole in the wrong place, which apparently, it didn’t.

313. MJ - March 28, 2011

@309. Sounds like something I’d expect out of a 3rd season TOS episode. :-) I know you really want Talos 4 in the movie, but short of killing off Spock, I am not buying it.

314. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

See I wouldn’t have Spock Prime widely notorious for Nero’s incursion. I don’t think he deserves that. I would have it be a mystery to most everyone except a very few because otherwise then you have to deal with the issue of Spock revealing what he knows about future technology, or having to defend not doing it or doing it, and then he starts becoming a major part of the sequel which I don’t think he’s going to be.

If the movie is going to be about Talos IV I suspect Spock Prime will have a minimum to do with it and that the rationale for getting us there will be dealt with quickly.

Opening on his funeral would get us there very quickly.

315. MJ - March 28, 2011

@314. Yes, if that is to be the story, then open with his funeral — agreed!

316. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 28, 2011

Ah MJ my old friend….

Perhaps Spocky-boy only makes the occasional half-mistake…..being only half-Vulcan and all. But its still a mistake.

I’m afraid it’s true Lafue….: )P

317. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

313: “@309. Sounds like something I’d expect out of a 3rd season TOS episode. :-) I know you really want Talos 4 in the movie, but short of killing off Spock, I am not buying it.”

Actually I’m not fixed on a Talos IV story. I (and you too!) are giving Bob feedback on all these questions without Bob having to show his hand. So if that IS what he’s working on he gets something to think about on it, and we help. And if that’s NOT what he’s working on, it’s still stimulating to run through all these scenarios to see what sells and what doesn’t, and that too helps.

318. StarFuryG7 - March 28, 2011

291. BeatleJWOL
“The above is a potentially inaccurate transcript from IMDB, but the words “alternate reality” and Spock’s reply of “Precisely” are absolutely found in the film. Not only is it a fantastic “revelation” scene played out through Spock (as happened in many episodes; the most recent one that comes to mind is Spock’s last minute speech in “Spectre of the Gun”), but it lays out exactly why the film did NOT have to adhere to canon.”

:::Sigh:::
No, what it “lays out” is why the timeline has been UNDONE and (by the looks of things) rewritten.

And I sighed at the outset there because I’ve been over this one countless times over the last few years after the film hit theaters. It boils down to this really: an “alternate reality” does not necessarily equal an ‘alternate universe’. An ‘alternate universe’ in the sense that everything has changed, sure, but we’ve seen things change in the past, with those problems then having to be rectified in order to set the timeline and everything right again. Take “City on the Edge of Forever,” an example I usually cite in these situations: same universe, altered timeline, therefore alternate reality, yes, but in order to rectify the order of things, Kirk has to stop McCoy from preventing Edith Keeler’s death.

“The only argument ignored by the film is whether or not the prime universe ceased to exist at the moment that Nero emerged from the black hole.”

YES!

And there ya go.

“If you then agree that the Countdown comics are also canon (unusual, but that’s what THEY said),”

I would point out that Orci has contradicted himself on this by the way, initially acknowledging them as canon, then refuting them as canon. But I would also add that you’re putting forth an argument I have also made in relation to this in the past. (Yes, I’ve argued it from both sides, and for a reason when I’ve decided to.)

“then the (admittedly brief, if I recall correctly) scenes of the Prime universe after Spock’s ship disappears into the black hole would suggest that in fact, Nero time traveled into the past and created a new reality (and here’s where my non-canon theory begins) because of the presence of red matter, a substance that we do not fully understand.”

But then you’re looking for an out. The film doesn’t establish it.

319. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 28, 2011

@310

The Big E could be docked having its nacelles whittled down and the iBridge would be having some lightbulbs taken out!

Meanwhile, down in the brewery……: )P

320. boborci - March 28, 2011

318.

Here is what clinches it as proof:

Nimoy/Spock remembers his own life, not Quintos. He remembers Kirks father being alive. therefore, his universe has not been erased.

Also, if you google alternate reality, it is considered synonymous with parallel universe within first three listings.

It is your preconceived notions of what the term means based on internally inconsistent time travel movies you’ve been a fan of all your life that have
Taken you to this error in judgment;)

321. Phil - March 28, 2011

@319. That would be dry dock. And years of refits, space trials and such before a relaunch. And down in Engineering Scotty would be having a beer.

322. MJ - March 28, 2011

@320. Well thanks for completely straightening this out Bob. This is about as useful as your script progress updates! :-) LOL

323. Harry Ballz - March 28, 2011

I can see it now…..Spock Prime, at his advanced age, is now hard of hearing.

Spock Prime is warning the elder Vulcan leaders about which planets to avoid:

Spock: “There is one planet you must avoid”

Elder: “Tell us more”

Spock: “That is correct. Talos IV”

Elder: “Tell us for what? I imagine good reason”

Spock: “A good reason for what?”

Elder: “What?”

Spock: “Talos IV”

Elder: “Right. Tell us for what?”

Spock: “Jesus! Forget it!”

324. Harry Ballz - March 28, 2011

320.

Bob, that last part of your post sounds pure Vulcan! Did you just spend the day riffing on Vulcan dialogue? :>)

325. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 28, 2011

I suspect that Montgomary would be more partial to whisky.

Beer or whiskey; either way his whistle would be well and truly whetted.

There is a lot of fluid dynamics in most types of engineering. : )P

326. Clone923 - March 28, 2011

Guys, Star Trek 2009 was set in 2258 but as a result of the changes to the timeline; it put all of the original crew in their historic trek roles way sooner than the original Star Trek’s 5 year mission as it began in 2264 (2265 if you go by the champagne bottle in Star Trek ” Generations”. In either case, even if 2 years have passed, our favorite heroes will still be about 5 years from having lived any of the events of the orignal series because they are still in the future. Sure, they may have visited some of the same places but the events will surely not have unfolded anywhere near the same way they did on Classic Trek…

327. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

320: “Also, if you google alternate reality, it is considered synonymous with parallel universe within first three listings.”

Yes. Simple failure to understand the nomenclature. Thin stuff to base a counter argument on. If some fan is going to build an anti parallel universe argument based on a quarrel with a commonly accepted and therefore probable use of a term in favor of some philosophical distinction of his own creation which he prefers, then you are off the hook, Bob.

Nowhere in City on the Edge of Forever are the words alternate reality used at all, yet it is somehow acceptable to assume that Edith Keeler’s time is an alternate reality but NOT an alternate universe, and yet it is UNacceptable to assume that the words alternate reality ACTUALLY USED IN ST.09 do mean parallel universe, EVEN THOUGH that is a common meaning of the term.

I suppose you could have stopped frame after Uhura said “alternate reality” and lingered on a dictionary definition showing the equivalence for a few moments. But it’s hard to know beforehand what nits every fan is going to pick to anticipate and preempt them by using a word they like better.

328. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

323. Harry Ballz – March 28, 2011

HA! That is funny. Who’s on first?

329. gingerly - March 28, 2011

@312

SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero’s very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.

UHURA: An alternate reality?

SPOCK: Precisely.

The relevant lines are bolded for your convenience. That pretty clearly indicates that this is not the same timeline.

http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie11.htm

330. gingerly - March 28, 2011

…And there’s also this.

SPOCK PRIME: He inferred that universe-ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise.

SPOCK: You lied.

SPOCK PRIME: Oh, I… I implied.

Alternate reality means no universe-ending paradoxes.

331. Star Trek Sequel Fan Already - March 28, 2011

I would go for several episodes. The danger with going to far (as mentioned) is missing out on seeing how the characters have come together as a family. Yes, we saw how they initially came together in this universe in the first movie, but we now need to see the emotional bonding that will occur. From what I’ve heard, that sounds exactly like what they’re going to show in this sequel. If you pick up exactly where you left off, the start will be very slow and maybe not as believable (because bonding with people doesn’t happen over night…especially if Spock is involved here). But if you pick up several seasons later, you will have missed a good chunk and the audience will feel like it is no longer part of the family even if the Enterprise crew is. It’s like meeting a group of new friends for the first time, going away for several years (while the rest of the friends are still together), and then coming back. They recognize you and are nice, but they won’t be as intimate with you as they are with each other and you’ll feel uncomfortable. I, as a fan and seeing it from the point of view of an audience member, don’t want to feel left out.

To sum up, if you skipped that whole paragraph, I think several episodes would be best.

332. Chris Doohan - March 28, 2011

Everytime is see that the thread is over 300, I know that Bob is lurking around. Always nice to read his comments. Hi, Bob

333. keachick - March 28, 2011

Thank you, MJ, for the link to the definition of MWI. I have read other posts like the one I answered, but was too tired (it is true – did not sleep well, got headache blah, blah) and since our man Bob Orci is here with us, I thought he might like to explain this aspect of the story.

“I would point out that Orci has contradicted himself on this by the way, initially acknowledging them as canon, then refuting them as canon.” in reference to the Countdown comics.

I think the problem here has been what constitutes canon from the owners of the franchise, Paramount’s point of view. Canon is what is on FILM (and “signed off” by the owners Paramount in terms of copyright, logo etc). Written copy is not canon. TAS was not considered to be canon, but now it is because it is Star Trek in animation on FILM (authorised by the owners?). Therefore the Countdown comics are not canon. I still do not know if scenes filmed, but deleted from the director’s cut, could be considered canon. I would say “No”. Anyone? Bob?

The script Bob is writing now would not canon until it gets on FILM. Only two days to go, Bob. No, you can’t have three days because that means it will be finished on April Fools’ Day (downunder) and that’s no joke…

334. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

330. gingerly – March 28, 201l

Exactitudinous.

Universe ending paradoxes are not possible because they are not In the same universe. The paradox was a lie (implication) which makes the alternate (parallel) universe the truth.

335. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

in = from

wrong prepo

336. Basement Blogger - March 28, 2011

I agree with Anthony’s two seasons between the films. The two years will allow Kirk now to be more mature. Kirk would now be an older and wiser man not the kid who gets in trouble.

I also hope there’s sufficient exposition. I’m curious how the Federation has been affected by the destruction of Vulcan. Does mankind dominate the Federation? Is that good? Is there a power struggle between Romulans and Klingons? 2012 seems like a long time.

337. rebecca - March 28, 2011

It would be cool to see Jonas Brothers do Star Trek. It would be awesome. Joe would be the brave fearless and handsome captain, Nick the first officer/science officer, Kevin the chief medical officer, Demi Lovato the hot, cool and sexy communications officer and Selena Gomez as the Nurse in Sick Bay. I would love to see them aboard a 25th-Century Sovereign -class starship called the USS Explorer going to explore strange new worlds, seek out new lives and new alien cilviizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before. AND DON’T YOU DARE LAUGH OR MAKE FUN OF MY IDEA, IT’S JUST A SUGGESTION FOR A FUTURE STAR TREK MOVIE OR TV SHOW. IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT, BACK OFF.

338. Captain Robert April - March 28, 2011

Well, since I’m not going to see this thing regardless of what you decide (you had your chance with me and blew it big time), I offer up the following as simply friendly advice.

As has been pointed out, ST09 was set several years before TOS’ first season, so the only episode that would fall into question at this point is “The Cage”, which has already been invalidated by virtue of the fact that the Enterprise was built several years “late”, and thus didn’t happen.

You rebooted your bed, time to lie in it, Bob.

I suggest you have three years, or more, elapse, not just to account for real time, but to give the crew a credible amount of time to become a seasoned team of professionals (like we saw in the orginal series) instead of a bunch of reckless hotheads that no sane goverment would trust with a potato gun, never mind the newest ship in the fleet (like we saw in the last film).

Personally, I put the point of divergence from the original timeline a lot further back than Nero’s incursion; I put it back to the resolution of the Temporal Cold War (of, in the case of the alternate time line that was produced, the failure to resolve the TCW). That should be enough to account for the Kelvin’s tech being waaaaaaaaaaay beyond what a pre-TOS ship should look like, as well as Spock’s aberrant behavior and clearly faulty memory.

Should’a just gone with a complete reboot.

339. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 28, 2011

Holy shit!

340. dmduncan - March 28, 2011

337. rebecca – March 28, 2011

Hahaha! I LOVE it!

341. Harry Ballz - March 28, 2011

328. dmduncan “Who’s on first?”

Correct!

342. StarFuryG7 - March 28, 2011

#318.
“Here is what clinches it as proof:
Nimoy/Spock remembers his own life, not Quintos. He remembers Kirks father being alive. therefore, his universe has not been erased.”

Nimoy’s Spock was caught in the vortex of the black hole, so he wouldn’t remember Quinto-Spock’s life necessarily.

“Also, if you google alternate reality, it is considered synonymous with parallel universe within first three listings.”

In and of itself, it’s not enough as proof though, especially when there’s nothing else in the movie to back up.

Additionally, for the sake of time (which I don’t have very much of at the moment, even though I wish I did for the sake of this argument), I refer you to this portion of the Wikipedia article “Parallel universe (fiction)”:

“While the terms ‘parallel universe’ and ‘alternative reality’ are generally synonymous and can be used interchangeably in most cases, there is sometimes an additional connotation implied with the term ‘alternative reality’ that implies that the reality is a variant of our own.”

Well, we know it’s a variant even if it’s the prime universe undone/radically altered by Nero’s incursion into the time-stream.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_universe_(fiction)

“It is your preconceived notions of what the term means based on internally inconsistent time travel movies you’ve been a fan of all your life that have
Taken you to this error in judgment;)”

Perhaps, but I also know hair-splitting when I see it too. ;)

343. "Check the Circuit!" - March 28, 2011

The only thing that seems possible to me is The Cage. Even though we have a new universe, it will still follow the same linear structure. Kirk was in his mid-30′s in WNMHGB. In Star Trek ’09, he was in his mid-late 20′s. The Valiant flight recorder won’t be found for at least 7-10 years. (BTW, with the nuKirk progressing through the academy later in his life but at a faster pace….he may never have met Gary Mitchell.)

If Spock says in The Menagerie, they are viewing events from 13 years ago, that would put them BEFORE the events of Trek ’09. Maybe things in the new timeline from the incursion of Nero delayed the events or The Cage. Or maybe they happened several years prior to Pike meeting nuKirk in Iowa…we just haven’t been told yet.

But even if 3 years in real time/new universe time passes between the movies, it still seems like the timing of Star Trek ’12 will take place somewhere in the void between The Cage and WNMHGB. So no events from aired episodes of TOS can have occurred. Most of them (if not all) were driven by specific encounters and specific places and times.

But, the Doomsday Machine is out there somewhere. The S.S. Botany Bay is out there somewhere. The Space Amoeba is out there somewhere. Harry Mudd is out there somewhere…but the events of Mudd’s Women can’t occur until the Enterprise comes across the stolen shuttlecraft at a specific point in time. IF we see Harry Mudd in trek ’12, it will have to be under very different circumstances than when we did in TOS.

Does that make sense? Time anomalies give me a headache.

344. Phil - March 28, 2011

337. rebecca – March 28, 2011

Another script for Cawley. Hope he can sing…

345. VZX - March 28, 2011

332. Chris Doohan – March 28, 2011
Everytime is see that the thread is over 300, I know that Bob is lurking around.

Heh, I was thinking the same thing. I wonder if Bob Orci has ever discussed, defended, and dissected anything else as much that he wrote before.

346. StarFuryG7 - March 28, 2011

329. gingerly – March 28, 2011
“UHURA: An alternate reality?

SPOCK: Precisely.

The relevant lines are bolded for your convenience. That pretty clearly indicates that this is not the same timeline.”

It’s not the timeline that’s the problem, however. It’s the universe and where it’s all playing out that is.

347. The Picard Maneuver - March 28, 2011

Most would feel that a year is a nice round number when offered a few months or two years. Whichever we are given, those who want will quickly accept, adapt, and enjoy the ride :)

No Mudd, Talosians would be fun, Klingons battleships would be even better. I am just curious as to how the new movie would rase the bar and in what way will fill in those important aspects missing in the previous movie.

Considering I use my laptop and desk top everyday I got rid of my Star Trek XII countdown widget…..the number was too high and ticking too slow. I am going to use the ‘not watching the tea pot method.’ Even though time is constant…it should speed things up a bit lol.

348. Cenobyte - March 28, 2011

Bob,

I like option 2… I’d say that the types of crazy stuff the crew of the Enterprise get involved in over a 10-15 episode time-span would fast track the various relationship dynamics, especially between Spock and Kirk. I just started a cool new job 2 weeks ago and I’m already starting to form relationships with my co-workers… and we’re not dealing with salt monsters or Harry Mudd (although one of the developer dudes kinda looks like Mudd)!

McCoy will surely be at a point where picking on Spock is on the verge of becoming second nature, and Spocks respect for both Kirk and Bones will have started to settle in… it would be cool to see Kirks reaction to the events of the film be what further solidifies the that bond/respect between Kirk/Spock/Bones and the rest of the crew.

349. Daoud - March 28, 2011

@345 I think Bob likes us all. :) He really does. He really likes us. At least Sally says so.

I think that clearly, Spock Prime (Sprock for short?) will have made a “list” of every incident in general that could occur, based on the idea that the universe as we’re seeing it now only changed at 2233. That means all worlds at 2233 were the same. They certainly could have diverged in the meantime according to the laws of quantum mechanics. Eye color, for example, is a random fluctuation of the possibilities, as we see on screen.

Perhaps the first “5 year mission” of the alt1701 is to follow up on all the ‘errands’ that Sprock has set forth. Finding the Botany Bay, towing it to Deep Space XYZ, and STOWING it, without re-activating the sleeper pods… destroying the AMOEBA before Intrepid (if it would even exist now as an all-Vulcan ship)… stopping the flying parasites (and thus SAVING George Kirk, Jr.)… etc. The possibilities each are a future novel waiting for Pocket to assign out.

But for the film, I hope Bob strongly considers picking up where things left off, maybe a few weeks of gaseous anomalies later, and gets back to the open issue of what the rest of the fleet not at Vulcan was doing heading for the Laurentian system. Something Klingon, I trust. After all, they’re going to be rather pissed about those 37 odd ships.

350. Sunfell - March 28, 2011

Don’t go out too far time-wise- I want to see these guys sand the rough edges off each other. And bring Pike back- I really liked his character. He’ll be the one doing a lot of the sanding.

If the Fleet has been decimated by Nero, show it! Consider the internal workings of Starfleet, and its needing to rebuild itself from scratch. Also, let’s see what the Vulcans are up to- how many are left? How are they holding up? Are they really Vulcans any more? If Spock’s betrothed, T’Pring has survived the decimation, that would be a bit of spice. Give Quinto a chance to air it out.

You have a whole new universe, Bob- run with it! I truly trust you and the guys will come up with something wonderful. While the fans are a great resource, I sincerely hope that you truly surprise and delight us.

351. Canuckfan - March 28, 2011

I want to see the crew getting to know each other, and learning how to be a team. I want to see Jim building on the experience from Spock Prime in order to get a relationship with Spock. I want Bones to be resentful toward Spock for a long while before we get a grudging version of what we saw in TOS. I want Scotty to get all proprietary over the Enterprise.

Ideally, it can be a few months in. Great examples of how to do this well — the early episodes of Stargate SG-1 when that team was getting to know each other — 22 episode was not the entirety of their missions, and there were awesome throwaway lines about those other missions.

Make the characters work toward becoming the personas we love from TOS!

352. Cenobyte - March 28, 2011

Weird I was just checking out some old Seeds videos on youtube and BAM – Harry Mudd (Roger C. Carmel)!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhPvkzFJhnk

If you could work this song and possibly some capes into the sequel that would be cool ;)

353. keachick - March 28, 2011

Hair splitting is right and my head is sore just reading this. All this fussing over years, when this or that was supposed to have happened, how old somebody was when whatever, ships should look like this but not that… I could not give a “rat’s ass” (to use an oldie, but “goodie”) about any of this. It is just not relevant.

It is a different timeline, an alternate universe. Some or all these (fictional) villains, aliens, commodores, admirals, doomsday machines… may not even exist in this alternate state of existence. They simply may not belong in this universe, only in the prime universe. If any of these do, what occurs is likely not to happen in the same manner at the same time, so all this ridiculous pontificating over dates, years blah, blah is pointless. Leave these stardates etc where they rightfully belong, in the prime universe and stop taking what is not given.

As for evidence of this Star Trek being in an alternate universe, if Bob Orci says it is, then it is!
GET OVER IT, ALREADY!

Unfortunately, I do not agree that the sequel should be set more than two years or whatever after the end of the first film. Why introduce these characters as a young crew who have pretty much just met and then just skip two or three years to where we see them as “seasoned” and “mature”? Why didn’t the writers just put them into the middle of where the characters were in terms of TOS and be done with it? Why show Kirk’s birth? Spock’s childhood etc? It is this formative time spent on the Enterprise with a new, relatively inexperienced captain in command with a young(er) crew, is what allows for original stories and strong character development to take place. I want to see this young(ish) crew put through their paces, exploring in every sense of the word… To set up a situation -ie inexperienced but talented young captain and bright, young crew who are thrown together because of extraordinary (and tragic) circumstances – and then just skip over that time of them getting to know, understand, trust one another etc This should not be ignored or glossed over as if it is unimportant and irrelevant.

I know it is only a movie, but honestly…

(We already have 79 episodes and six movies showing a more “mature and seasoned captain and crew”, operating in a different timeline and most probably under different circumstances.)

354. Phil - March 28, 2011

You know, a few snippits of Bashir and o’Brian playing darts on DS9, grabbing a drink or hitting the holosuite were great character builders. There is just no way in hell you could make a two hour movie out of that, though. Does anyone really want to see two hours of Kirk/Spock playing chess, Scott/McCoy sampling Romulan Ale, hanging out in the mess hall, getting that bromance thing going. Might as well start scratching my eyes out now…..

355. boborci - March 28, 2011

332. Mr. Doohan! How are you?

356. Spooky - March 28, 2011

I think it’s kind of asinine to assume that the episodes of TOS will just play out in the XI timeline and we can just be “ten episodes” or “two seasons” down the track. The events of XI have made it so that at least some of the episodes will either play out completely differently or be impossible to even happen at all. Take This Side of Paradise, for example. Why would Spock be surprised that he was able to experience love with the effect of the spores if he already has a relationship. And why would he fall for Leila Kalomi in the first place if he, oh yeah, has a freaking girlfriend (unless deep down he wants to cheat on Uhura???) What about The Naked Time? Why would Spock feel great shame about his feelings of friendship for Kirk if he’s already happy and comfortable and experiencing no angst whatsoever having a full on relationship? And what about the big one – Amok Time. Is T’Pring even alive? Were they ever betrothed? And of course, Spock’s pon-farr won’t be a big deal because he’s already in a relationship. And even if it was, it’s not like he could go to Vulcan to get married anyway, cause there is no Vulcan anymore. And then there’s Journey to Babel. Would it be Perin instead of Amanda who convinces Spock to give blood to his father, since Amanda is dead? And of course, let’s not forget that these characters are, what, 5 years younger than their counterparts were in the pilot episode. So even if the episodes could all play out the way they did in TOS, 5 years later they’d only just be starting to have those adventures.

Ultimately, though, I cast my vote for 2 years later. I’d like to see this crew getting along with the ease and familiarity of the old series. Especially Kirk & Spock – their friendship was really legendary. Gene Roddenberry once described them as two halves of one whole, and even though their XI counterparts are different in very drastic ways, I think that at their core, they still fit together like yin & yang, and complete each other in a very profound way. I saw the beginnings of it in the first movie, and I’d love to see their friendship solidified in the sequels. Also, if it’s at all possible, I’d absolutely love to see them playing 3D chess one more time!

357. Canuckfan - March 28, 2011

Also: please make Joanna McCoy canon.

358. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 28, 2011

260. “why not leave us with something to argue and discuss for another couple of years!”

I wouldn’t worry too much about that, Dubb. Care to argue about it?

359. Lee - March 28, 2011

I’d say they should take the Lost route in the movie – why limit yourself to a story in one time period? Why not use all three – flashbacks to right after the 2009 movie, main setting of part of a season in and flashfowards to a couple of years later… which is even better if they set up elements leading into the next film (ala Star Trek II and II).

360. Mikey - March 28, 2011

How about this …. timewarp.

The changes to the timeline has had the effect of making the Borg aware of the federation long before they would have otherwise.

Spock, the old spock, contacts kirk and lets him know this was never supposed to happen, that in his time-line the borg never found out about the federation untill MUCH later. Then, he tells them about timewarp.

The crew gets one shot to fix the timeline as much as possible. But what time to you go back to? When Nero first shows up, when they only have one ship to help them(the kelvin) or to some other time.

Regardless this allows them to fix SOME, not all of the damage done by Nero, and still have an alternate universe to explore … just not one as radically different as the loss of 6 billion vulcans would cause.

361. DeShonn Steinblatt - March 28, 2011

338. Don’t make fun of the stereotypical obnoxious trekkie with your silly posts. It’s not even that funny.

362. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 28, 2011

Less time, Bob. Let’s watch them grow closer and become the crew and characters we know so well. We’ve never seen that aspect of Treklore. Remember: fun and new. The adventure is just beginning…

And thanks.

363. MJ - March 28, 2011

I would like to see much more of the ship this time around. And Bob, you have to put in the word to JJ from all of us fans that the Engine Room needs a complete overhaul from the horrible concept of redecorating a brewery…it is the one thing in the movie that frankly embarrassed me as a Trek fan. If you all can’t afford do do full sets, then I would definitely prefer use of CGI instead of the Budweiser brewery.

Would like to see Kirk and Spock playing a game of 3d chess, and wold like to see Scotty involved more seriously (less gags) than in the first movie.

364. Jim Nightshade - March 28, 2011

Groupies Harry??/ Hell I would even settle for Gropees! hahahah! Sigh Sniff pout…:(

365. Jim Nightshade - March 28, 2011

Timewarp?? Hey Bob Orci, LETS DO THE TIME WARP AGAIN!!!!!

Opps different franchise? hahahah

366. keachick - March 28, 2011

#354 Phil – “There is just no way in hell you could make a two hour movie out of that, though. Does anyone really want to see two hours of Kirk/Spock playing chess, Scott/McCoy sampling Romulan Ale, hanging out in the mess hall, getting that bromance thing going. Might as well start scratching my eyes out now…..”

I’m not sure, but were you referring to my post above? Anyway, I don’t think that anyone who is suggesting that we should see the characters come to know each, learn about, understand, develop trust etc, as we would for them, is wanting the kind of movie you describe above. I doubt Paramount or Bob and co would be interested in doing same either. Actually, I don’t have to doubt…:)

As I said, I want to see this somewhat inexperienced crew put through their paces. I mean, how do you gain experience anyway? This should indicate a story that perhaps tells of an encounter with some alien race that is intriguing, challenging, perhaps even terrifying, whether it comes via villainy and/or some naturally occurring event, which may have unforeseen repercussions on the Enterprise because of being in a region that had not been explored before…

I’m not sure there would be a lot of time for playing 3D chess or sipping illegal Romulan ales with everything else going on in this before now unexplored region of space.

367. Harry Ballz - March 28, 2011

364.

Pouting, Jim? Tell me, how’s that working for you so far?

Let me guess, your version of foreplay starts off with a half hour of grovelling…

I kidz because I luvz!

368. keachick - March 29, 2011

#311 – “a question about ST09 for Bob Orci or anyone out there who can help me: when Spock and Kirk go aboard Spock Prime’s ship and find the red matter, how exactly does Spock realize that Kirk has been keeping information from him. Is it just the ‘gee, that’s weird’ line that Kirk says, or is there something else that I’m just completely missing?”

Yes. I wonder about that as well. Given the apparent ignorance of Kirk and Spock re prime Spock’s existence, I thought it would be the sort of line that someone would say, as in “Gee, that’s weird” when Kirk heard that the Jellyfish recognised Spock’s voice. Why would Spock think that Kirk was keeping information from him?

369. Jack - March 29, 2011

368. Yeah, I’d say it’s Kirk’s reaction. And he’d already been wondering how the heck they’d beamed aboard the ship at warp. Spock’s a smart guy — so a quick conclusion. I know, I’m not Bob, but that’s my take as a filmgoer. Had they mentioned the jellyfish in their planning (which woukd have onvolved Kirk spilling a few of the beans) or did Spock first learn of it in the when he was looking for the black hole device (with a guy who’d apparently not been in on the meetings when Ambassador Spock was mentioned — or else Spock meldgoogled for just the info he needed and didn’t learn he had a Spockelganger [sorry, I get a little punchy when tired])? Sorry, tangent.

And if dmduncan’s around — what’s the Talosian appeal for you? wouldn’t we be stuck with the same general plot, and ending, as the cage? plus, isnt Kirk kind of where he wants to be, and is brand new at it (so no need to show him the life he could have had, without so much sacrifice, outside of Starfleet, like they did for Pike, or like the Nexus did for everyone else) I’m sure he and Spock would fantasize about full sets of parents… but these new guys don’t seem quite as “no beach to walk on!!” as the first season, more seasoned TOS crew.

370. trekprincess - March 29, 2011

I would love to see The Doomsday Machine remade as a film that would be brilliant as it one of my favourite episodes or just do something fresh and new but also familiar :)

371. Mystic Goat - March 29, 2011

WOW! March 27th 2008 was the end of principal photography ST 09

Is the next Trek movie still aiming for a 2012 release ?

372. Nuallain - March 29, 2011

One thing you didn’t mention was the actual real world aging of the cast vs the in universe aging of the characters.

I didn’t mind at all the fact that the crew got older as the TOS franchise continued BUT in that ‘Genesis Trilogy’ (and STV – which is, remember, again set directly after the previous film) you have the faintly ridiculous sight of the characters aging seven years over the course of a couple of weeks of story-time.

So put me down for a ‘few years’ between movie settings. It’ll save us the sight of a 38 year old Chris Pine still trying to act like he’s straight out of the Academy a few movies down the line…

373. Jeyl - March 29, 2011

@320: “Nimoy/Spock remembers his own life, not Quintos. He remembers Kirks father being alive. therefore, his universe has not been erased.”

Well, how would you explain Spock Prime’s line “You are not the Captain?” when Kirk wouldn’t have been anywhere near that the point in his career from the original universe?

And even with that, it can still be interpreted as Spock Prime simply traveling back in time while still knowing how events originally unfolded since mind altering effects of time travel are never a consequence to those who actually travel through time. It’s just not concrete enough to use as evidence that supports the continuing existence of the original prime universe. The only real way to show that the prime universe still exists is to have the two universes interact with each other again, which I’m fairly certain will not happen.

374. trekprincess - March 29, 2011

Why is it taking forever I thought the script would be finished by now guess Bob and Alex want it to be absolutely brilliant which is great that they are taking their time on this.

375. Jai - March 29, 2011

“We open on Spock Prime’s funeral.”

That could definitely work very well. In fact, it could be accompanied with the voiceover from Shatner-Kirk’s “birthday message” deleted scene.

Presumably the alt-verse Enterprise crew would be present at the funeral. Complete with the thought-provoking psychological connotations of Quinto-Spock basically witnessing the funeral of his older self (albeit the Prime Universe version), and the added poignancy of Kirk now having experienced the emotional impact of his closest friend’s death on two separate occasions, given Spock Prime’s mind-meld with him in ST09 and Pine-Kirk’s resulting awareness of the depth of their friendship in the Prime Universe.

(Optional: I have no idea if Vulcans are buried or cremated, but if it’s the latter, the pyre could be ignited by Quinto-Spock himself or Pine-Kirk. Both actions obviously have various existential implications).

Leonard Nimoy’s face doesn’t necessarily have to be seen in this scenario, since he’s apparently not going to appear in any further Star Trek movies. Having said that, if he was willing to make a brief (obviously non-speaking) appearance, that would also be a nice touch.

So, you’ve got another emotionally hardhitting, poignant, attention-grabbing opening to another JJ/Orci Star Trek movie, and it simultaneously solves the issue of Spock Prime’s fate in the alt-universe along with finally giving Shatner-Kirk a proper send-off.

After which, the rest of the epic story begins in earnest.

376. Christopher Roberts - March 29, 2011

I’m not sure Nimoy needs reminding of mortality, but for the sake of Star Trek canon… if I’m even allowed to use that word these days – - – - – -

I’ve no idea how Vulcans dispose of their dead. Really important priests seem to get mummified, going by ENT “The Andorian Incident”.

Their katra is transferred and stored somehow on Vulcan…

377. Bringbacktrekagain! - March 29, 2011

Oh man! Where is the office of temporal investigation’s when you need’em?

378. VZX - March 29, 2011

I say no Spock Prime funeral. The new cast now needs to stand on its own without anyone from the orignal cast.

Not only that, why would you want to start a movie on a funeral? How depressing!

379. Daoud - March 29, 2011

We already had a Sprock funeral.

One of Boborci’s favorite films, too.

380. Daoud - March 29, 2011

But, can Pegg learn the bagpipes, stat?

381. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

372. “One thing you didn’t mention was the actual real world aging of the cast vs the in universe aging of the characters.”.

Seven years was a long time. As for this installment, I don’t think they’re there yet. They wouldn’t look much older in this movie. Now farther down the line… that would have to change.

382. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

371 “WOW! March 27th 2008 was the end of principal photography ST 09″

“Is the next Trek movie still aiming for a 2012 release ?”

Remember, the movie was delayed 6 months due to the writer’s strike. And the sets won’t need to be built from scratch. Some of them anyways.

383. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

As for engineering, I’d do what many here have suggested before me. Just enter another room with a warpcore. Done. No major refit or explanation needed. The ship still needs water, so there we were.

384. Jai - March 29, 2011

Re: #378: “Not only that, why would you want to start a movie on a funeral? How depressing!”

To symbolically “lay to rest” the unresolved issues with Spock Prime, Shatner-Kirk, and the connection to the Prime Universe.

ST09 opened with a major death too, remember, although it was obviously accompanied with Kirk’s birth.

There is a way to open with a more uplifting premise in the next film, building on the suggestion of Spock’s funeral and the concept of “new beginnings” :

As before (see #375), the new Enterprise crew are present. Vulcan priests can be heard chanting. The audio switches to Shatner-Kirk’s “birthday message”. Quinto-Spock and/or Sarek (who is still alive in this universe and is obviously also going through the disconcerting experience of witnessing “his” aged son’s funeral) or Pine-Kirk ignite the funeral pyre.

As Shatner-Kirk’s voiceover ends and the flames engulf the pyre, the camera angle shifts; for a few seconds you see Quinto-Spock and Pine-Kirk through the flames, standing next to each other and staring at the pyre, accompanied with the audio of Spock Prime saying “I have been, and always shall be, your friend.”

Switch to a close-up of a sun, pan away to a vast starfield, and you now hear Chris Pine’s voice reciting the “Space…The final frontier” monologue. Then cue the music and the opening titles. (Of course, that final part can also come after any intermediate “dramatic opening scene” Bob Orci & co have in mind for the sequel).

385. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

Now if they could only install a light dimmer on the bridge. It was like driving cross-country with your dome light set to a million. I get it, the ship was new, but damn… Not very functional.

386. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

Jai. You’ve done all their work for them. Not a bad scene at all. I would place it after a kick ass opening scene like we saw in the first flick. Maybe a moment to catch our breath before launching into their next move.

387. et - March 29, 2011

“Two seasons to three years” does *not* sound “just about right,” honestly.

Remember, this is still a movie in modern Hollywood, not another of the old-school Trek films where we’ve got an old established crew on another adventure. You can’t just flash ahead in their character development and rely on the fact that your audience is going to know how these people turn out from the original series. You’re going to have to pick up at least a little bit on the momentum of where we saw them at the end of the first film.

How long passed between “Batman Begins” and “Dark Knight?” Or “Spider-Man” and “Spider-Man 2?” Enough so the characters had been at their game for a while, but the problems inherent in their lives really began to manifest.

Two to thee years is way too big of a jump.

388. dmb1138 - March 29, 2011

368, 369, thank you for your thoughts on the matter. I forgot that Spock would have still been puzzling over the question of how Kirk and Scotty got onto the ship while at warp. Seeing the future Vulcan ship, hearing the recording, and seeing Kirk’s reaction, certainly would have clinched it for him. It’s funny that, for all the issues some people had with the movie, this was the only question that nagged at me. Thanks again.

389. Phil - March 29, 2011

366. keachick – March 28, 2011

Not referring to anything you said, but commenting on my perception that a lot of the people posting here seem to have a need to see this crew bond. When a ship is launched, it undergoes testing and trials, and possible repairs if problems are found. Crews are also trained and acclimated, which also takes time. This potentially makes for a movie packed full of exciting classroom scenes, and of guys welding. Clearly, my vote is to fast forward 5-6 years and have these guys out exploring, fighting Klingons, or whatever. I really don’t need to see all these little minor details of the shake down years on the big screen.

390. Jack - March 29, 2011

373. yeah, I’d thought about the “you are not the captain?” line — Er, it was an emotional day, he suddenly saw an old friend, and, most likely, he didn’t know the exact stardate when he came back (just as Nero had to ask). So he saw jtk and thought it was his buddy who’d somehow come to save the day.

391. gingerly - March 29, 2011

@353

Haha, this is what I was picturing when I read your comment:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/firstcontacthd/firstcontacthd0641.jpg

392. MJ - March 29, 2011

PLEASE BOB:

No Spock’s funeral and no Fat Shat!

393. John from Cincinnati - March 29, 2011

Leonard Nimoy as Smaug in “The Hobbit” movie. You heard it here first!

394. John from Cincinnati - March 29, 2011

One point very few people posting on here don’t get and it’s a very simple concept:

The universe up to the point where Nero fired on the Kelvin was the same events. 25 years had passed from that point until Nero tried to destroy the Federation with the destruction of Vulcan. So what most people incorrectly want, is that the universe somehow completely reordered itself in a 25 year period. All the places, people and events from the original series all just disappeared, which is a flawed and infintile deduction. The correct deduction is, the Federation is still around, the Enterprise is still there, Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty et al are still around. So it is safe to say, a lot of the people places and things from the original are still around. It would be unbelievable to think they are not. They might be in different circumstances, some stories involving Vulcan are gone, but they can be replaced with the Vulcan Colonies. Why can’t Amok Time still happen on the Vulcan colonies? I’m not looking for repeating of the exact same stories of the original, but I think it is inconceivable to not include those people places and things in the alternate universe as it is an ALTERNATE and not NEW universe. The difference in definitions of those words proves my point.

395. John from Cincinnati - March 29, 2011

What will be exciting in the next movie is to see what has changed and what has remained the same.

Obviously, destiny was a major theme in ST09. In spite of theNero firing on the Kelvin, Pike still became Captain of the Enterprise and ended up in a wheelchair. Kirk still becomes Captain after Pike. Spock, Scott, McCoy et al all still end up serving together. A LOT of things still happen that were in the original. So yes the writers are free from the shackles of canon, but the original framework is still there. I don’t think they rebooted Star Trek to take it to whole new places and things. Why do that? Then the action in ST09 were self defeating. Just create a whole new franchise with new characters. Instead they chose to go through the pains of reviving the original characters in a FAMILIAR universe,…just to abandon it in future movies? I don’t think so.

396. Michael Hall - March 29, 2011

“Now apparently Bob is not going by the incomprehensible stardates used in TOS. Kirk seems to be using the current earth year and tacking on a . # afterward.”

Not so sure what’s “incomprehensible” about an implied universal timekeeping system when such would almost be obligatory for an interstellar union where travel at impulse speeds (and maybe warp drive too, for all we know) would be subject to relativistic effects. It certainly makes a lot more sense than basing common time on a calendar not used by many cultures on comtemporary earth, let alone distant colonies, Vulcans and–gods help us–renegade Romulans.

Of course it’s a small thing, in and of itself. But to me it was indicative of a regrettable impulse by the filmmakers to take a concept that had already been tailored for a mass audience in 1965 and water it down to presumably connect with audiences in 2009. Since we’re all considerably more sophisticated about spaceflight and technology than we were forty years ago, I’m not sure I understand the thinking involved. Roddenberry’s hope was that Trek would be done better by those who came after him–not just bigger and louder and with more production gloss.

397. Damian - March 29, 2011

Few things to think about–

Don’t forget a few boards ago, Bob Orci indicated they are not going to be doing endless movies. He seemed to indicate that the possibility exists they may not even write a 3rd movie if it did not suite them. Do you want them spending all their time establishing the characters, or getting into the meat of a story with a somewhat experienced crew?

I am with the 2 to 3 year time frame because it would be consistent with the aging of the characters. It would also show the crew with enough experience under there belts, yet not so much that they have lost that youthful love for exploration. The origin story established in the last film was enough for me. I don’t want to spend another 2 hours trying to establish relationships or as Phil noted above going on a shakedown cruise of a brand new ship working out the kinks, then have to wait another 3 to 4 years to see how things turned out.

Remember, it is likely you have 3 to 4 movies tops with this new team. Do you really want all that time spent on an origin story? The general public (who the Abrams team is trying to appeal to, in addition to Trekkies) wants an action oriented story and are not as interested in all the ins and outs or the nitty gritty of the character relationships.

Also, as I previously noted, Pocketbooks would be able to start publishing books in this new time line to fill in the blanks. As a direct sequel, Paramount may wish to postpone production of extra-universe publications for yet another year or two.

398. gingerly - March 29, 2011

@394

This is why being miffed that ST’09 somehow destroyed Trek canon so certain events won’t happen is silly:

All of those mirrorverse episodes?

Same concept as the new film.

If you can understand that Spock doesn’t have a beard and Sulu doesn’t have scar in prime Trek timeline, why can’t some see that the same rules apply here?

Nothing’s changed.

With the exception of the Narada and Spock’s disappearance and Romulus’ destruction, prime universe is still intact.

Everything that was gonna happen in Trek canon that you love, happened already.

399. Damian - March 29, 2011

re: 397

to clarify, when I said direct sequel at the end of my comments, I meant taking place immediately after the prior movie.

400. Damian - March 29, 2011

I don’t have a problem with the new universe thing. In a way it was an ingenious bit of writing. It allowed them to write Star Trek in a new way while at the same time preserving canon.

I really do not want remakes or new takes on prior episodes. I want something new. This whole reboot idea was to take Star Trek in new directions. Also, to remake episodes (at least most of them) would require the writing team to jump ahead 6 or 7 years, since the movie took place in 2258 and the original series began around 2265.

401. MJ - March 29, 2011

@394. You are missing the point. Because of the alternate timeline:

(1) The Alternate-U Enterprise mission with Kirk and crew is starting 4 years ahead of time than in the original universe, so that throws off the timing of WHEN the original episodes could potentially occur: and

(2) The Alternate-U Enterprise can be expected to be patrolling different areas of space then the Prime Enterprise did, since the mission is starting years ahead of schedule and also being affected by the events of the movie, particularly the destruction of Vulcan, and the destruction of a number of other starships. So this throws off the location of WHERE the Alternate-U Enterprise would need to be to support the stories in the original episodes.

So, in summary, for at least a large majority of TOS episodes, the Alternate-U Enterprise will neither be available WHEN or WHERE the TOS episodes occurs.

As I mentioned earlier, because of this, you might find some other starships showing up (by coincidence based on Starfleet’s programming of Starship missions) at the right place and near enough on time that they could experience some of the stories from TOS episodes…this might support some cool Star Trek novels that could be written if the publisher would support this.

402. MJ - March 29, 2011

@400. Well, you are covered by my explanation above in 401 — they are pretty much forced into new stories based on my logic stated here. If they try to pretend this is not the case and just repeat a TOS episode for the new movie, then they had better provide explanation on how that could logically happen based on my logic above.

403. Stardate - March 29, 2011

In order to fully canonize boborci’s stardate system, the new movie should begin on stardate 2260.366, ending on stardate 2261.9.

404. Phil - March 29, 2011

396. Michael Hall – March 29, 2011

Incomprehensible, only to the extent that in TOS, there was no continuity to it, the Stardate was whatever numbers the screenwriter yanked out of his a** that morning.

405. Red Dead Ryan - March 29, 2011

There are some fans on this thread, who for some unbeknownst reasons, prefer to believe the original timeline was erased, despite Bob saying the new timeline exists parallel to the old. These fans demand that such ideas be explained in great minutae or they don’t consider the new timeline to be “canon”. The term “alternate reality” doesn’t seem to be enough it seems. “Alternate reality” is what it says it means. A reality alternate to our own. Therefore, that must mean at least two timelines/realities are running parallel to each other. Hence, the original canon still exists. If the prime timeline ceased to exist altogether post Narada incursion, then the the alternate reality wouldn’t be alternate since it has no basis for being “alternate”.

406. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

373: “And even with that, it can still be interpreted as Spock Prime simply traveling back in time while still knowing how events originally unfolded since mind altering effects of time travel are never a consequence to those who actually travel through time. It’s just not concrete enough to use as evidence that supports the continuing existence of the original prime universe.”

Sorry Jeyl but you then HAVE TO PROVIDE an alternative explanation to what gingerly quoted from the movie. When you intentionally and selectively remember the parts that make case A, and ignore the parts that refute case A and establish case B, then you are experiencing confirmation bias.

To review:

(Begin quote)

330. gingerly – March 28, 2011

…And there’s also this.

SPOCK PRIME: He inferred that universe-ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise.

SPOCK: You lied.

SPOCK PRIME: Oh, I… I implied.

Alternate reality means no universe-ending paradoxes.

(End quote)

Some of you guys, it’s like you go to the restroom every time that scene comes up so you pretend it doesn’t exist, and then you try to tell everybody there’s nothing else that makes the case.

407. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

375. Jai – March 29, 2011

“We open on Spock Prime’s funeral.”

That could definitely work very well. In fact, it could be accompanied with the voiceover from Shatner-Kirk’s “birthday message” deleted scene.

***

That might could work. They find the holographic emitter in Spock’s personal effects. I’ll buy it.

So Shatner is back in the film then. Excellent!

408. Obsidian - March 29, 2011

Only thing that comes to mind is—too long between films. Take a lesson from the TOS cast movies–make more of them, and more often!

If you’re afraid of over-saturating ST at the theaters, then at least make more of them, and sit on them, and dole them out when you see fit.

We should have had twice as many TOS movies.

Crank ‘em out, boys!

409. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

396: “Not so sure what’s “incomprehensible” about an implied universal timekeeping system when such would almost be obligatory for an interstellar union where travel at impulse speeds (and maybe warp drive too, for all we know) would be subject to relativistic effects.”

Two points about that:

1. It’s literally incomprehensible. There is no within canon logical order to the numbers that you can understand to grasp how it works, at least not for TOS. They were, in fact, pretty much arbitrary.

2. There is no absolute time, at least not for biological creatures embedded in time and space. So you can’t universalize something that is always relative.

410. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

406:

SPOCK PRIME: He inferred that universe-ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise.

SPOCK: You lied.

SPOCK PRIME: Oh, I… I implied.

***

And by the way, just as Spock “implied” the paradox conclusion he wanted Kirk to have, Bob “implied” the MWI conclusion he wanted us to have.

Since the word “implied” is in the movie, it is canon. IMPLICATION is now officially a part of the Star Trek universe, which means you are AOK justified from the standpoint of canon alone in accepting the “implied” MWI solution.

If that’s the sort of thing you need…

411. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

I don’t believe or remember reading that those who wish to see the relationships develop on screen wish them to do so in classroom or during a shakedown cruise. Much can be learned about someone under fire. I thought we wanted a deeper, richer depiction of the crew and did not want to speed past the characters for the sake of the ADD crowd.

412. Capt. JD - March 29, 2011

#10
This is what I envision

EXT. ENTERPRISE

Another successful mission complete, the Enterprise
majestically flies across the screen, the nacelles power up
and suddenly the ship jumps to warp. Now alone in space, the
camera floats momentarily and then “locks” onto an object
far in the distance, a flickering light in deep space.
Suddenly, the camera blurs up close to the object, a large
floating ship, seemingly derelict. Words can barely be seen
adorning the hull of the ship. Once more, the light flickers
to life, revealing the faded words on a pockmarked hull…

S.S. BOTANY BAY

CUT TO BLACK

413. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

Maybe I’m an optimist but I’m hoping for several more movies. Let them concentrate on the early years since after how many ever hours, five series and the first ten movies we know little about that time frame. Then, if what some fear happens, and they monthball the franchise, they can one day pick up where they left off, with new actors, (or on the small screen) at some point in the future, and not have to constantly reboot like some franchises.

414. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

ever many

415. gingerly - March 29, 2011

@411

I agree, in fact my biggest issue with Enterprise was that they were right far too often. Learning under fire the hard way, not magically stumbling into the right thing to do every time, would’ve endured me more to that crew (as well as developing the supporting characters better).

Far too often, it was aliens learning that those humans weren’t as bad, stupid, whatever other negative trait as they thought, instead of the other way around.

They never really earned it enough for me. They came in talking down to and knowing better than everybody else.

I hope they don’t make the same mistake with this reboot crew. I hope the alien cultures explored are rich and fully realized (or imply that) and don’t rely on simple cliches.

416. keachick - March 29, 2011

At #366 I wrote -”Anyway, I don’t think that anyone who is suggesting that we should see the characters come to know each, learn about, understand, develop trust etc, as we would for them, is wanting the kind of movie you describe above. I doubt Paramount or Bob and co would be interested in doing same either. Actually, I don’t have to doubt…:)

As I said, I want to see this somewhat inexperienced crew put through their paces. I mean, how do you gain experience anyway? This should indicate a story that perhaps tells of an encounter with some alien race that is intriguing, challenging, perhaps even terrifying, whether it comes via villainy and/or some naturally occurring event, which may have unforeseen repercussions on the Enterprise because of being in a region that had not been explored before…
I’m not sure there would be a lot of time for playing 3D chess or sipping illegal Romulan ales with everything else going on in this before now unexplored region of space.”

#389 – you wrote – “When a ship is launched, it undergoes testing and trials, and possible repairs if problems are found. Crews are also trained and acclimated, which also takes time. This potentially makes for a movie packed full of exciting classroom scenes, and of guys welding…”

Please re-read both posts. Did I say anything about repairs being made, training of crews and cadets etc? If you watched the very end of ST09, clearly the Enterprise had been repaired, the young crew was ensconced in their respective positions, the captain had assumed official command and the only outstanding question was – who was to be first officer? That was answered within the next sixty seconds.

I don’t go for flashbacks a lot, and there would be little need here to have one, especially if it is to show someone welding a whatsywhatever – btw, that is a technical term…:) We can safely assume that what you have mentioned has already happened anyway and we can also safely assume that the final scene from ST09 would have taken place several months after the Enterprise is seen limping back to earth.

417. I, Mugsy - March 29, 2011

I wonder how many films we’ll have with this new crew? My only problem with this whole new enterprise (sorry!) is the time it takes to make a sequal. Is this just going to end up a trilogy of Trek films when all is said and done, and then it’ll be stuck in reboot/recast hell like Spidy or Superman ever 7-8 years or something? I wish they’d do this second film then move the production to some sort of quasi-TV series. Lots of HQ TV shows out there now putting many films directing/writing to shame, and Star Trek could easily be one of those tentpole shows. Say 5 adventures per year or something, so at least we get more time to get to know this new crew well. Without wishing any offense, I think Trek works far better on TV then the big screen. Trek was about exploring, and you can’t do much of that if it’s just one every 3 years – the movie version of Trek have to appeal to all audience demographics so you get a diluted version of how good it could be… Always ends up having to be an action/adventure thing, rather than sci-fi like the best shows from the original 60s run…

418. keachick - March 29, 2011

#389 – “Clearly, my vote is to fast forward 5-6 years and have these guys out exploring, fighting Klingons, or whatever. I really don’t need to see all these little minor details of the shake down years on the big screen.”

Why not? These films are about introducing the original characters going where no one has gone before at a younger age from the TOS series characters. Actually no one has ever really seen any “shake down years” on screen before. Have people here got a problem, even a “chip on their shoulder”, when it comes to bright young people, the 20 and 30 somethings? After what I have read over the months, I simply have to ask. Snarky impatience seems to be what I am reading a lot of the time…

Given that the actors themselves will have aged only four years by the time they get to work on the sequel (please Bob…Make it so), clearly the make up department will have a nice job making the actors look even older than they are already. I assume that the same make up team who won the Oscar will be coming back, so it should be a piece of cake for them. The real question is WHY?

The actors will be fine. They are all good. They know their jobs. With make up and good acting skills, these professional actors could easily convince people of them being a character five years younger or older than they are themselves. But, again… I don’t see the point or the need.

The characters/the actors are young(ish). Let them be YOUNG(ish) and all that that may imply!

419. Allenburch - March 29, 2011

418. keachick “The characters/the actors are young(ish). Let them be YOUNG(ish) and all that that may imply!”

That’s the way all my group of peeps, young and old, want to see the next film…along with some real thoughtful maturing along the way…

420. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

Good news: Turns out Zefram Cochran was born 12 years ago. He doesn’t go by that name but this kid is destined to create warp engines:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110329/ts_yblog_thelookout/for-12-year-old-astrophysics-prodigy-the-skys-the-limit

421. keachick - March 29, 2011

OK Bob Orci! By my reckoning, you have exactly 36 and one half hours to have that script done and wrapped up in a gorgeous Star Trek cuddly rug…Just saying. No pressure.

Are there Star Trek/Starfleet cuddly rugs available? I never saw anything at all like here. I would have got one or two to wrap my babies in. Now that, for me, would constitute a desirable collectible.

422. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 29, 2011

@332

So Chris, you will only lower yourself to take note of Bob’s comments, eh?

How elitist.

Pretty much sums up Hollywood Land….

423. keachick - March 29, 2011

My scenario, if played out, would inevitably lead to some thoughtful maturing for some, if not all, of the characters. You do not need years to bring about certain advancements.

The other aspect to consider is that some young people are just naturally “mature”, while other people, no matter how old they get, never appear to learn or “mature” at all.

424. keachick - March 29, 2011

Well, Hollywood was/is, at once, lala land and snotty Snobswood, at least that is how it looks to those from the outside sometimes. Shame that Hollylala land/Snobswood needs to rely on us plebe/outsiders to be, to have, to get where they are. I’m sure this is something some would surely like to forget. Let’s make sure they don’t forget!

425. rebecca - March 29, 2011

#338 dmduncan thanks! I knew you would like my idea! From One Trekkie To Another, Live Long and Prosper!

426. Christopher Roberts - March 29, 2011

422. Don’t be like that. Chris has worked with Bob.

Aside from some name recognition, there’s next to no familarity over the internet and I see this all the time, fans expecting to given the nod everytime and becoming a drama queen when they aren’t acknowledged. That’s not snobbery. Imagine if you went everywhere and people came up to you, thinking they personally knew you.

If anybody says something that facinates them enough to ask for more, they’ll do so.

Bob hasn’t replied to me in days and given some of my grumpy “Can we have our prime universe ball back” postings… I don’t blame him. It’s not his jurisdiction.

427. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 29, 2011

well and truly reeled in….: )P

428. MJ - March 29, 2011

NEWS ALERT ON SCRIPT STATUS:

This quote from JJ today was just put up on Trekweb.com

“We’re working on the story. That’s probably more important than the release date at this point, but at the moment, we’re not going to change anything.”

Read between the lines here folks…the script is having issues due to the story itself not being what JJ wants, and the whole story and scripting process taking much longer to develop than anticipated (pretty much what I was conjecturing in early posts).

Based on this, I’ll stick by my earlier prediction — if we don’t hear about the script being accepted by 15 April, then the film’s release date will get pushed back to December 2012.

429. Christopher Roberts - March 29, 2011

427. I must have missed the sign “Beware: Cloaked Mines”

;)

430. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 29, 2011

429

Got you sir!

Now who’s next?……………

Ballzy……………….: )P

431. MJ - March 29, 2011

I’m not happy about this….3.5 years is way too long to wait between Trek movies. I mean, come on, the movie was released nearly two years ago, and THE STORY HAS NOT EVEN SOLIDIFIED YET???

432. Battle-scarred Sciatica - March 29, 2011

I would put money on a December release…

433. MJ - March 29, 2011

FYI — For TOS series Harve Bennett/Roddenberry produced series of movies, they typically had each movie out within 2.5 years and they NEVER exceeded 3 years.

434. RH - March 29, 2011

Finnegan!

435. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

369: “And if dmduncan’s around — what’s the Talosian appeal for you?”

The Talosian thing is me speculating on the plot of the sequel. I’m not saying I pulled that episode out of a hat to be the plot because it’s what I personally want to see. It’s a plausible scenario from the clue(s) Bob gave.

436. MJ - March 29, 2011

THIS IS DEPRESSING !!!!!!

Scotty, please beam me some Prozac

PS: With this likely delay, in December 2012 we will be up against The Hobbit Part 1 and Superman: Man if Steel…Trek is going to get killed up against those two movies, whereas I think would would have done really well against the low-budget Spiderman reboot that nobody wants to see next Summer.

437. MJ - March 29, 2011

@435. DM, your Talosian story may be much better than whatever JJ has rejected from the writing team so far. Maybe if the existing story, which may have a technobabble deflector dish sequence (that JJ has likely rejected), is not working, they should really give your idea a hard look.

438. MJ - March 29, 2011

Another fly in the ointment given this likely delay — Cameron is going to start live action shooting in January of next year, which may take Zoe Saldana out of the Trek movie. She was signed for Avatar well before Trek, so here contract for Avatar likely overrides her Trek contract if there is a conflict.

Also, given this new delay, I would hope the least JJ and Paramount could do would be to release the Alan Dean Foster and other two novels set in the new Trek universe — come on, we need to have something official in the new universe to read/see?

439. StarFuryG7 - March 29, 2011

#330. gingerly
“…And there’s also this.

SPOCK PRIME: He inferred that universe-ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise.

SPOCK: You lied.

SPOCK PRIME: Oh, I… I implied.

Alternate reality means no universe-ending paradoxes.”

There were no “universe-ending paradoxes” to really worry about once the timeline had already been obliterated by Nero and Spock Prime made clear through his actions that he was willing to let all that stand. The original timeline was already wiped out, over and done with–period.

Sorry for not getting back to you on this one last night before retiring for the evening, but I didn’t see your message.

440. gingerly - March 29, 2011

@439

You initially requested cited sources.

So, you were provided both the script, past Trek canon (all of the mirrorverse episodes) and Orci’s word and yet you still stubbornly insist that it’s not enough.

Seems weird to be so gung-ho to believe something that you claim you don’t want, in the face of proof of what you do want,

…Not to mention a lack of substantiation for your own POV…but I have seen stranger things.

Still, it is your choice to do so.

Enjoy it. …I guess?

441. keachick - March 29, 2011

It is possible that Zoe Saldana’s contract with Paramount may override her contract to do Avatar.

Yes, I am disappointed too, if there is anymore holdup over the script. I mean, how bad can it be? JJ Abrams has always been the producer. He should have been paying attention to the scripting progress and frankly should not need till now to decide whether he likes the story enough to direct it. More Hollylala bs. Isn’t it about time the so-called “supreme court” actually focussed on what is one of the best and *important* fanchises for nearly half a century? No more excuses.

To the “supreme court” – You know, I don’t actually care that much about anything else you might be into. I am a trekkie. I love Star Trek. You decided to bring it back to us. Do not compromise on our Trek. How dare you. Show some respect. Stop teasing, get on with it and do it properly!

442. StarFuryG7 - March 29, 2011

405. Red Dead Ryan
“There are some fans on this thread, who for some unbeknownst reasons, prefer to believe the original timeline was erased, despite Bob saying the new timeline exists parallel to the old.”

What Bob says outside of the film in interviews, or here, is not what the film actually conveys, and that’s the actual problem. It’s not about people “preferring to believe that the original timeline was erased”, but rather that the film more so than not actually leads one to that conclusion even if they prefer to think otherwise, as I do. However, the film does not provide anything concrete enough to actually support that “preferred” conclusion on my part, and that’s the rub.

“These fans demand that such ideas be explained in great minutae”

That’s baloney –go back and look at my initial messages here if you must. I make it very clear simply that dangling it as a possibility would likely be enough to satisfy even those who are most offended at the prospect of the original timeline and universe having been annihilated in favor of this new one. In fact, there’s a very simple way it could be done.

Kirk: So has Ambassador Spock returned to his own universe yet being that he’s accomplished most of what he set out to here?

Pike: Yes, he departed yesterday.

That could simply mean Spock decided to his own time, or it could also imply that the two universes are distinctly different. In itself it’s enough to hang one’s hat on.

That’s just an example …there are other ways it could also be done obviously.

“The term ‘alternate reality’ doesn’t seem to be enough it seems.”

When the prime universe timeline was disrupted and had to be corrected in prior Trek, wasn’t the way the universe had changed as a result of where things had gone wrong an “alternate reality” also? Wasn’t the universe seen in “Yesterday’s Enterprise” after the Enterprise-C emerged from the temporal anomaly also an “alternate reality” from the one Picard and the others had experienced up until that moment? Guinan knew it, but only vaguely in a somewhat abstract sense, and that’s why she goes to Picard and urges him to take actions he otherwise wouldn’t have moved in the direction of.

” ‘Alternate reality’ is what it says it means. A reality alternate to our own. Therefore, that must mean at least two timelines/realities are running parallel to each other.”

Or it could mean one was wiped out in favor of the new one.

443. Anthony Thompson - March 29, 2011

428. MJ

Settle down. But I share your concern. My belief is that great films come from someone who is passionate about telling a story. Does Bob have a story that he really wants to tell? Or is he groping for one? The vibe I’ve been getting since Day One of sequel talk is: the latter. I’ve heard talk from our friend about “research” and “getting input from the fans”. Not once have I heard Bob claim to be really excited about a story idea he’s pursuing. So, frankly, none of this is a bit surprising to me.

444. MJ - March 29, 2011

@440. Gingerly is right on this one (ouch, I have agreed with here twice in row now :-) ). As a result of the plot of the last movie, there are clearly two Trek universes now, NOT one (plus many others unexplored and inaccessible).

445. StarFuryG7 - March 29, 2011

Sorry, just caught this . . .

…this line in my prior post should have read like this instead:

“That could simply mean Spock decided to *return* to his own time, or it could also imply that the two universes are distinctly different. In itself it’s enough to hang one’s hat on.”

Sorry, but I have a wireless keyboard that’s all too fickle when it wants to be.

446. MJ - March 29, 2011

@443. Well AT, after reading your reasoning here, which I agree with, I am even more distressed than before.

447. MJ - March 29, 2011

@445. StarFury, when you add in to the equation that the Trek universe already validates the MWI (many worlds interpretation) through the TOS episode, “Mirror, Mirror,” your limited argument that the original timeline was destroyed becomes even less credible to accept.

448. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

437. MJ – March 29, 2011

@435. DM, your Talosian story may be much better than whatever JJ has rejected from the writing team so far. Maybe if the existing story, which may have a technobabble deflector dish sequence (that JJ has likely rejected), is not working, they should really give your idea a hard look.

***

Hey thanks, but I doubt my Talosian musings are better than what Bob could come up with.

As for the story I’ve got, I’d share it with ‘em in a heartbeat if I could get it to ‘em for sure. Be a good backup plan.

And I think most of you guys would love it! It’s a totally new story with lots of action that lets the crew really come together and solidify as a team, which is the main point of the story. The crew coming to be who we see they are in TOS, and Kirk surpassing everybody’s wildest expectations of him. It also opens fast and rough like ST.09, because that was badass.

BUT, it’s also a 20 -21 page (single spaced) outline, some of that being a few actual scenes, so it still needs some skilled screenwriters to build up from the skeleton.

Am I not selling it hard enough already? ;-)

449. Michael Hall - March 29, 2011

“Two points about that:

1. It’s literally incomprehensible. There is no within canon logical order to the numbers that you can understand to grasp how it works, at least not for TOS. They were, in fact, pretty much arbitrary.”

The original purpose of the stardate was to keep Trek’s era from being pinned down too specifically. Actually, IRCC it stated in The Making of Star Trek that there was an attempt even in early TOS to keep the stardates in sequence, but because the eps were often aired out of the order in which they were produced the numbers created some confusion since the stardate would often be lower than the preceding week’s show. This prompted Roddenberry’s technobabble explanation about ship time vs. planetary time, which I actually thought was a pretty nice bit of cover for a TV producer. :-)

“2. There is no absolute time, at least not for biological creatures embedded in time and space. So you can’t universalize something that is always relative.”

Exactly. Which is why even the implication of some advanced timekeeping system which allows for relativistic effects makes more sense than referencing the Gregorian calendar in deep space. It’s just crazy to say that it’s midnight of June 21st, 2266 when you’re on the edge of the Romulan Neutral Zone (and even more so if you’re a Romulan).

450. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

BTW, Spock Prime meeting his actual younger prime universe self WOULD BE the paradox. It has nothing to do with timelines being rewritten. That’s how we know it’s not the prime universe, because there is no paradox, which there would be if both Spocks were from the same universe and meeting their same universe selves.

451. Brady - March 29, 2011

I didn’t read all the 446 posts before I wrote this but, has anyone addressed the fact that in the JJ verse Kirk is doing Pikes adventures not the TOS 3 season adventures? They wont probably meet Mudd or Khan or Kang or anything from the TOS episodes due to it’s maybe 10 years before Kirk originally became captain. So everything is new and should be treated that way. Just my opinion.

452. Jefferies Tuber - March 29, 2011

ST09 uses the theme of fate to great effect with the the idea that Kirk’s heroism and the Enterprise crew’s destiny are seemingly unshakeable. The timeline is trashed, characters are misformed, Vulcan is destroyed, yet the ‘Universe’ aligns things to deliver us James T. Kirk in command at the just the moment he is required. It’s a beautiful thing, that movie.

I’m sympathetic to the modernists in the crowd, because I think we deserve new adventures written for our time, but it’s hard to escape that theme once it’s established. If fate delivered Kirk a woman named Carol and Spock and Bones a nurse named Christine, then are we prepared to say that their destinies are less important to our heroes’ story?

Gary, Decker and Khan fall in the same category. The Doomsday Machine is going to happen off screen–too similar to ST09. Gary is small screen stuff.

The only way to do Khan right is for another ship to discover the Botany Bay, and for Khan to amass more power in this time than he ever did before or after Ceti Alpha. Thus Kirk must deal with a Khan who is younger, less addled, more empowered…

453. MJ - March 29, 2011

@449 ““2. There is no absolute time, at least not for biological creatures embedded in time and space. So you can’t universalize something that is always relative.””

Sure there is. You could always reference Earth Standard Non-Relativistic time, and use computers on your starship to calculate and reference it. I.e. you could program your startship’s computer to always keep a clock that shows the current time on earth (the computer would be continually adjusting for relativistic effects of course.

Also, consider that the Enterprise probably does not really travel at the fast at true relativistic speeds unless it really cranks up the impulse engines. Remember, Warp Drive, is bending space-time to create a continuous wormhole effect…the ship in not actually traveling faster than light in standard space.

454. StarFuryG7 - March 29, 2011

#447. MJ
“StarFury, when you add in to the equation that the Trek universe already validates the MWI (many worlds interpretation) through the TOS episode, “Mirror, Mirror,” your limited argument that the original timeline was destroyed becomes even less credible to accept.”

In “Mirror, Mirror”, the parallel mirror universe was specifically at issue and it was made abundantly clear that it was a separate universe in its own right obviously.

Contrast that to the “have your cake and eat it too” approach taken in ST09, where the closest it gets to suggesting that what we’re seeing is a separate universe in its own right rather than the original universe undermined and dramatically altered intentionally by a villain, and the difference is clear: one wants you to know that you’re looking at a separately distinct universe in its own right, whereas the other, which came much later, prefers instead to walk the finest of lines so as to not take a clear position on the matter, and if anything, intentionally wants one to believe that it’s the same universe and the very same characters in every respect to the ones we had seen for 79 episodes and 6 feature films.

And here’s the kicker, because I’d actually PREFER to think of it as a separate and unique branched off universe from the original, but I can’t in good conscience because there just isn’t enough evidence in the film to actually support it. So say what you will, but I don’t have to just swallow it like pabulum simply because you’re content to do exactly that.

455. MJ - March 29, 2011

@454. Dude, you should go to the Alan Dean Foster official novel….that explains it a little better than the movie and makes is pretty clear it is an alternate universe. That should clear things up for you and allow you to sleep at night. :-)

456. keachick - March 29, 2011

Alternate means: “adj. & n. 1`intr. (often foll. by with) (of two things) succeed each other by turns (rain and sunshine alternated; elation alternated with depression). 2 intr. (foll. by between) change repeatedly (between two conditions)… 1 (with noun in pl.) every other (comes on alternate days). 2 (of things of two kinds) each following and succeeded by one of the other kind (alternate joy and misery). 3 (of a sequence etc.) consisting of alternate things. 4 Bot. (of leaves etc.) placed alternately on the two sides of the stem. 5 = alternative…[L. alternatius past part. of alternare do things by turns f. alternus every other f. alter other]”

Alternative means: “1 (of one or more things) available or usable instead of another (an alternative route). Use with reference to more than two options (eg. many alternative methods) is common, and acceptable. 2 (of two things) mutually exclusive. 3 of or relating to practices that offer a substitute for the conventional ones (alternative medicine; alternative theatre). 1 any of two or more possibilities 2 the freedom or opportunity to choose between two or more things…the alternative society, a group of people dissociating themselves from conventional society and its values…”

#442 – ” ‘Alternate reality’ is what it says it means. A reality alternate to our own. Therefore, that must mean at least two timelines/realities are running parallel to each other.”
Or it could mean one was wiped out in favor of the new one.”

No, it could NOT mean that one is wiped out in favour of a new one. That would mean there would be no alternate/alternative universe, only one. Learn what “alternate” and “alternative” actually means and it is clear what its context is within Star Trek 09. Just because prime Spock, or anyone else for that matter, may not be able to go (back) to the other/alternate/prime universe, does not mean that it does not exist.

457. Dee - lvs moon' surface - March 29, 2011

JJAbrams is talking about Star Trek 2:

“We’re working on the story. That’s probably more important than the release date at this point, but at the moment, we’re not going to change anything.”

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/cinemaconnews.php?id=75686

:-) :-)

458. StarFuryG7 - March 29, 2011

455. MJ
“@454. Dude, you should go to the Alan Dean Foster official novel….that explains it a little better than the movie and makes is pretty clear it is an alternate universe. That should clear things up for you and allow you to sleep at night. :-)”

I did read it actually, and he did a better job of at least suggesting it as a possibility, which in itself says a lot, since he did a better job than the film did.

And again, it’s not just me that this bothers. A longtime acquaintance of mine from elsewhere dropped in last night to register some of his own displeasure about the movie.

…Now there’s a guy who can’t sleep at night because of the last movie, let me tell ya.

459. MJ - March 29, 2011

@458 “And again, it’s not just me that this bothers. A longtime acquaintance of mine from elsewhere dropped in last night to register some of his own displeasure about the movie.”

Yea, I hate it when unexpected company drops by my house and complains about the Trek alternate universe situation. And they always seem to do it right when I’m posting here about the topic.

460. boborci - March 29, 2011

Have never contradicted myself on Countdown being canon.

461. StarFuryG7 - March 29, 2011

456. keachick
“No, it could NOT mean that one is wiped out in favour of a new one.”

Then what was the point of their ever correcting any broken timeline in prior stories? Why bother going back to the Depression era to stop McCoy from preventing Edith Keeler from dying in a traffic accident the way she was meant to?

“That would mean there would be no alternate/alternative universe, only one.”

Why send the Enterprise-C back in time to where she came from in “Yesterday’s Enterprise” if not to restore the natural order of things, as they were meant to be?

“Just because prime Spock, or anyone else for that matter, may not be able to go (back) to the other/alternate/prime universe, does not mean that it does not exist.”

If only that had actually been made clear in the film itself, but it wasn’t obviously.

462. keachick - March 29, 2011

#454 – “In “Mirror, Mirror”, the parallel mirror universe was specifically at issue and it was made abundantly clear that it was a separate universe in its own right obviously.”

So you are saying, because the writers of ST09 did not browbeat the audience with heavy explanations and did not spell it all out in triplicate that your conscience(?) will not allow you to accept what was explained in the filmed and subsequently confirmed and explained again by the writers?

Yes, it was abundantly clear that it was a separate universe in “Mirror, Mirror” because we got to see it. The Enterprise belonged to the Empire, the crew were mean. Kirk had the tantalus field, Spock wore a beard and they had an agoniser booth. Sulu had a scar. We did not see the prime universe that the older Spock came from in this movie, except what was shown in the mindmeld with Kirk. So, what you are saying is, that it can’t exist anymore because they did not show it in the film? Oh dear…

463. MJ - March 29, 2011

My neighbor Dolores just brought me over some cookies, and she happened to also mention that she is really bothered by the lack of clarity of the Trek alternate universe situation.

464. PJays - March 29, 2011

I don’t post here often but I do come to this site almost everyday (Great Site….keep up the great work). I wasn’t going to say anything but I thought I would give some input to the Alternate Reality problem that seems to be bothering people.

What Star Trek ’09 does is create what is called a “Grandfather Paradox” which is if you go back in time and kill your grandfather, you will no longer exists but if you don’t exist, you can’t kill your grandfather. The loop continues.

Star Trek ’09 does this by destroying Vulcan, which is home to the Red Matter(created by Vulcans). Without the Vulcans, Red Matter don’t exist, the future Nero and Spock won’t be able to use it and get sent back. Another loop.

To explain (in theory) the grandfather paradox is to have a parallel universe where one timeline has your grandfather, and one where you killed him and you don’t exist. Crazy, I know. I don’t make this up…..lol!

Here are links if you want more information…

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox

Memory-Alpha
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox

You can agree or disagree; everyone is open to their opinon and free to take Star Trek what ever way they want. That is the fun to being a fan. With so much Star Trek (shows/movies) it is easy to pick on one show because of something said in another (We all remember Warp 10 in Voyager even thou TOS and TNG travelled at those speeds). So if you believe there is parallel timelines/realities/universes or that there is only one, that is totally up to you. Just enjoy Star Trek the way it suppose to be…..entertaining & fun!

Live long and prosper!!!

P.S. Sorry to those I put to sleep!

465. StarFuryG7 - March 29, 2011

459. MJ – March 29, 2011
“Yea, I hate it when unexpected company drops by my house and complains about the Trek alternate universe situation. And they always seem to do it right when I’m posting here about the topic.”

He acted on his own, and his complaints were his own.

But you’re free to think of this as [b]your house[/b], even though it isn’t.

466. keachick - March 29, 2011

Bob – Is the Countdown actually canon, in terms of the definition that I am familiar with and presented in a previous post? or have I defined “canon” incorrectly?

I think that the story in Countdown does and is meant to tie in perfectly with what is shown in the movie.

467. MJ - March 29, 2011

@465 “He acted on his own, and his complaints were his own.”

How fortunate that an unnamed friend just happened to drop by your place night night and without solicitation, validate your argument here so that you can relay his/her backing today or your position, which no one else seems to agree with?

This reminds me of my daughter, who when she was little, had a secret friend, which none of us could ever see.

:-)

468. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

453: “Sure there is. You could always reference Earth Standard Non-Relativistic time, and use computers on your starship to calculate and reference it. I.e. you could program your startship’s computer to always keep a clock that shows the current time on earth (the computer would be continually adjusting for relativistic effects of course.”

You propose that if they experience dilation their computers start running the clocks faster so that they know how far in earth’s “future” they have gone? And that if they go back to the same time they left, then those effects are erased and the dates go back in time?

That’s an excellent definition of relative, not universal. There is no universal, absolute time. You’ve just added another clock: One that measures earth time in addition to one that measures their time.

449: “Exactly. Which is why even the implication of some advanced timekeeping system which allows for relativistic effects makes more sense than referencing the Gregorian calendar in deep space. It’s just crazy to say that it’s midnight of June 21st, 2266 when you’re on the edge of the Romulan Neutral Zone (and even more so if you’re a Romulan).

So the question becomes, what is the right way to do the wrong thing?

And there is no “correct” answer to that. It’s a matter of author preference now.

If you go back to the post you initially quoted, you’ll see where I cite from ST.09. There are several dates given in the movie, and on Delta Vega when Kirk is recording his complaint about Spock, he gives the stardate as the actual year and tacks a .# on the end (I don’t recall the exact number on the end), so that’s how Bob chose to do the stardate, by citing the year and then adding the .# to it.

Which also makes a sort of sense and why you can’t, strictly speaking, say he’s wrong for doing it that way. The crew of the Enterprise doesn’t experience relativistic effects; they can shoot across the galaxy and come back just like running to the grocery store to get a bag of coffee, and nothing much has changed.

So actually, it seems Gene Roddenberry’s noble attempt to explain the system is at variance with how it seemed to be portrayed in the series, i.e., without actually needing to account for relativistic effects.

469. boborci - March 29, 2011

I notice detractors conveniently avoid argument that Spock Prime’s memories would be different if we were dealing with classical physics. The only argument proffered is that that our movie is not consistent with time travel rules which are inconsistently represented in other movies!

But I understand the frustration. We had our cake and ate it, two (meaning twice) in that the movie can only be wholly understood knowing QM, this those that don’t bother to think that deep can fall back on classical physics and enjoy the movie that way.

Not sure why it is so upsetting that we hit a half court three pointer;)

470. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

459: “Yea, I hate it when unexpected company drops by my house and complains about the Trek alternate universe situation. And they always seem to do it right when I’m posting here about the topic.”

lol. Me too.

471. MJ - March 29, 2011

@468. “That’s an excellent definition of relative, not universal. There is no universal, absolute time. You’ve just added another clock: One that measures earth time in addition to one that measures their time.”

True, but I was getting at it from the POV of saying that Earth Standard time would be what Starfleet consider as the universal standard dating and time system. I agree that this wold be relative to cosmological time, which has no universal meaning. But all sentient races is a galaxy could agree on a single reference dating and timing system, and it could incorporate relativistic effects, and woud represent a universal time/date system.

472. PJays - March 29, 2011

Not sure if it is me being misunderstood as I enjoyed the Trek ’09. I was just saying that I believe that both universes DO exist due to the destruction of Vulcan. That is all I was trying to say in more words or less.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

Guess that is why I don’t post much. Fear of being misunderstood.

By the way, great job Bob, keep up the good work. Can’t wait for the sequel!

473. MJ - March 29, 2011

@469 “Not sure why it is so upsetting that we hit a half court three pointer;)”

Yes you did! But now in the rematch with the Celtics you are 7 points down with 2 minutes to go, and Kobe just came up hobbling…and the fans at Staples are getting nervous.

:-)

474. StarFuryG7 - March 29, 2011

460. boborci
“Have never contradicted myself on Countdown being canon.”

Hmmm.

“Countdown came about after Anthony Pascale of TrekMovie kept asking the film’s writers, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman, to create a means for the characters of The Next Generation to ‘pass the baton’ back to the characters of Star Trek: The Original Series. [2] Although comic co-writer Mike Johnson considers Countdown to be canon, Orci stated he was in no position to declare whether it was, though he felt it could be considered canon unless it is contradicted in a later film or TV episode. [3] He later implied that it was not canon. [4]”
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Countdown

Now that does give the impression that there was a little wavering going on, but after having reviewed the actual source, it appears you are correct. So I withdraw that prior statement unless something else comes to my attention, but I don’t have the time to go looking for it right now if even if I felt motivated to, which frankly, I don’t.

475. keachick - March 29, 2011

#461 – “Then what was the point of their ever correcting any broken timeline in prior stories? Why bother going back to the Depression era to stop McCoy from preventing Edith Keeler from dying in a traffic accident the way she was meant to?”

The Guardian of Forever operated on linear past and future time. When McCoy leapt through at that moment and went on to save Edith Keeler, then the linear timeline got disrupted, broken if you like. Kirk and Spock had to go in and reverse whatever McCoy had done in order to correct everything and bring things back to the normality that they had known. I think the writers were using the Grandfather paradox scenario here.

This is not what happened in ST09. When prime Spock injected the red matter into the supernova in order to destroy it, an anomalous black hole/singularity was inadvertently created, its gravity pulling both the Narada first (it was bigger and heavier) and then the Jellyfish into it and threw them out the other end, which was (or became a newly created) alternate universe. It did not stop the other universe from existing.

My question is – did this alternate universe already exist anyway (that Trek 09 are in now) and somehow Nero and Spock were thrown into it and had the door slammed on them (no key, no locksmith) or was this alternate universe a new creation directly resulting from the anomalous singularity being created by the red matter? Bob?

476. dmduncan - March 29, 2011

471. MJ – March 29, 2011

Well, let’s put it this way: TOS has never shown relativistic effects in its daily goings about the galaxy, so there’s no need to account for them; you can just use the year . whatever and call it good.

477. StarFuryG7 - March 29, 2011

467. MJ
“How fortunate that an unnamed friend just happened to drop by your place night night and without solicitation, validate your argument here so that you can relay his/her backing today or your position, which no one else seems to agree with?
This reminds me of my daughter, who when she was little, had a secret friend, which none of us could ever see.
:-)”

So now you’re implying that I’m a sockpuppet too, eh? You know what –all things considered, I’ve been pretty tolerant with you and have attempted to focus strictly on the topic for the most part despite your continued, unnecessary insults in my direction simply because you don’t like the position I’ve taken and my daring to actually speak out about it, and I don’t have to put up with any more of your crap, nor will I. If you can’t focus on the subject, then don’t waste my time, because it’s obvious that you’re more interested in trying to get under my skin rather than actually debating me on the merits of the argument (oh, wait –here comes another childish insult, I can see it already).

478. MJ - March 29, 2011

@476. Relax dude. You must admit, from a bystanders points of you, you pulling out the “a friend dropped by last night and fully agreed with my argument” card is a tad hard to believe. Come on! :-)

I apologize though…sorry!

479. Anthony Pascale - March 29, 2011

I have talked to Bob on and off the record about COUNTDOWN canon, and even though I pressed him to say that it is, he has always defaulted to the rule that only those things on screen are canon, but that fans should also judge for themselves if it is canon. He has also noted that it is ‘consistent with canon’. (correct me Bob if i got that wrong)

I admit I prefer the Lucas rules on book/comic canon, and do wish they would make the extended universe related to this movie as official canon. That is actually one reason I applaud the putting of the four Pocket Books on hold. Although how the whole thing was handled showed bad communication between Pocket and Bad Robot, it also shows that Bad Robot/Paramount/Orci Kurtzman want to be sure that the books are at least “consistent with canon” in relation to their film work.

As for Memory Alpha attributing the idea for COUNTDOWN to me, that is totally off. What happened is on a couple of occasions I had discussed with Orci how I thought they should find a way to show how their movie had something in it for TNG fans. I knew that the film tied into both TNG and TOS but at the time (this is back in 2008) the message was this was a TOS movie and many TNG fans felt left out. It was Bob and Alex (along with Mike and Tim) who came up with bridging NEMESIS and ST2009 in a comic book, which I think was a great idea and better than IDW’s original plan to have the prequel set entirely in the new universe.

480. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

415, 416, 418 : gingerly and Keachick – Well said ladies.

As for the story: I’m still not worried. Didn’t Paramont flip Pine’s schedule for filming just this week? A possible sign things are proceeding according to plan. Besides JJ would’ve walked already if the project was in true disarray. Have a little (dare I say) faith.

481. Anthony Pascale - March 29, 2011

As for the whole time travel erasure thing, while I admit it could have been clearer in the 2009 film, there is not a single ‘correct’ view of time travel fiction on this, nor is there consistency within Star Trek itself. Star Trek has done both the multiple timeline/universe thing (Parallels, Mirror Universe), and the overwriting timeline thing (Yesterday’s Enterprise, Star Trek: First Contact). It has also not been consistent on people’s perception of changes in timelines. But from the beginning the team have said it was always their view that this film was a new timeline that left the Prime timeline intact, and so that is what it is. They also made this clear in COUNTDOWN. Since it can be either, then the guys who wrote it are the ultimate deciders here. I dont understand why that isn’t enough for ppl.

And in a practical sense – it is official policy as well. The extended universe of Star Trek books, comics and games will continue to see the Prime Timeline as existing post Nero/Black Hole. In fact, Star Trek Online is set in the 25th century and specifically deals with the fallout of the destruction of Romulus. They even have a page about this:
http://www.startrekonline.com/timeline-alternate

482. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

475. “Was this alternate universe a new creation directly resulting from the anomalous singularity being created by the red matter? Bob?”

For what it’s worth it was a new creation at the time of Nero’s arrival. Atleast that’s how I understood Bob’s explantion previously.

483. MJ - March 29, 2011

@481/Anthony: “But from the beginning the team have said it was always their view that this film was a new timeline that left the Prime timeline intact, and so that is what it is.”

Thanks for clearing this up, Anthony.

484. StarFuryG7 - March 29, 2011

469. boborci – March 29, 2011
“I notice detractors conveniently avoid argument that Spock Prime’s memories would be different if we were dealing with classical physics.”

Tell me something, Bob –if “classical physics” was really such a “deep” concern of yours while you were writing the script to the first movie, why then do many of the characters get sucked into a singularity and manage to survive, let alone getting spit out its other side? And Gee, destroying a planet sure does look easy in the movie too while we’re at it. Are you kidding? And we’re supposed to simply disregard all pre-existing canon just to accommodate your movie besides? Why then does your movie actually rely on it so as to put forth a particular impression about the characters we’re seeing and the universe they inhabit? Why does young Kirk ask elder Spock if he ever knew his father, with Spock actually giving him an answer based on history and the life he had led up to that point if he doesn’t even know for sure who he’s dealing with and what his father was actually like as a person?

Come on man, that’s a joke if ever I heard one.

“But I understand the frustration.”

No, you don’t obviously.

“We had our cake and ate it, two (meaning twice) in that the movie can only be wholly understood knowing QM, this those that don’t bother to think that deep can fall back on classical physics and enjoy the movie that way.”

You’re a writer, and you’re saying that the average movie-goer has to be well-versed in Quantum Mechanics in order to actually understand your movie? LMAO –yeah, good going there, Bob. Great defense all right, aside from the fact that it obviously doesn’t hold up besides, all things considered. I also wonder how many people would have requested refunds at the door before going into the theater if they had found that out upon walking into the lobby after purchasing one.

Oh, and just for the record –I don’t hate your movie, even though you seem to think so apparently. I thought it was okay as a popcorn action flick, but not especially good “Star Trek” though otherwise.

Good night.
Sheeesh.

485. MJ - March 29, 2011

@484. Wow, did you really just say all that to Roberto Orci? Not cool! If you, Orci and I were in a bar right now, I would have to pour my beer over your head…no, I am not joking.

486. Red Dead Ryan - March 29, 2011

481.
…….

“Since it can be either, then the guys who wrote it are the ultimate deciders here. I dont understand why that isn’t enough for ppl.”

Unfortunately, some fans need things spelled out for them because A) They’re idiots or B) they’re too lazy to use their imagination and brains to figure it out because they automatically believe that the price they paid for their ticket came with the condition that one can leave their brain at the door because the movie will explain everything for them. Finally, C) Some fans have a problem with the way the new writers are doing things, simply because it’s not what they’re accustomed to.

487. Red Dead Ryan - March 29, 2011

I think Bob would lay a beat down on StarFury if they were ever in the same bar. Or merely use the Vulcan Neck Pinch.

488. Michael Hall - March 29, 2011

“Which also makes a sort of sense and why you can’t, strictly speaking, say he’s wrong for doing it that way. The crew of the Enterprise doesn’t experience relativistic effects; they can shoot across the galaxy and come back just like running to the grocery store to get a bag of coffee, and nothing much has changed.”

Well, I don’t know for a (pseudo-) fact that they don’t experience relativistic effects, to whatever degree. Warp drive doesn’t seem to cause it, but any serious amount of time at full impulse might do the trick.

“So actually, it seems Gene Roddenberry’s noble attempt to explain the system is at variance with how it seemed to be portrayed in the series, i.e., without actually needing to account for relativistic effects.”

Again, the stardate originated as means to get around having to pin the series down to a specific time period (finally settled in The Wrath of Khan as the 23rd century) combined with the dramatic device of the Captain’s Log entry. I’m guessing that Sam Peebles came up with the concept when he wrote “Where No Man Has Gone Before.” Roddenberry’s after-the-fact rationalization as to its workings was bullshit, of course, but even now it comes across as science-fictionally reasonable, and was just one more small thing that made the Trek universe unique. Why change it at all?

(And yes, renegade Romulans knowing a calendar based on the death of human religious figure that took place thousands of years in the past is just plain kooky. Though to be fair–since I do a fair amount of Trek ’09-bashing in these threads–it was just as silly when Worf welcomed those defrosted Klingon warriors to “the 24th century” on TNG.)

489. Jack - March 29, 2011

486. Agreed.

458. The film did it fine. What, were they supposed to launch a power point presentation? The crew got it quickly (alternate reality, check), and that’s what matters. To me anyway.

I guess I’ll never understand the outrage at the new universe — I guess it’s nice that people are sad/angry that Vulcan’s gone, but, like others have said here, all the TOS etc. DVDs won’t be erased, and new adventures can still be told in the prime world. Okay, it’s different than (but could arguably fit in with) some previous Trek time travel, but to me, it actually makes more sense.

Oh, yeah, and it’s not real.

And, personally, all those fix the timeline stories always left so many problems and required so much faith (see, I guess Dr. Plastic really did invent transparent aluminum). And, as has been argued here, if it were that easy, why wouldn’t they just time travel and hit reset everytime there was a problem (like that Voyager 70s show guy, who wrecked everything to save his wife, dumbass). And, well, who wants to see a movie where they go and undo everything from the last one so they can have all the adventures we’ve already seen?

Anyway, I’m hoping the writers won’t be pressured to explain things like crazy in the next one. A) It’ll leave us with nothing to gripe about here, and B) It would likely make the movie suck.

Nobody explained on screen how warp drive, transporters etc. worked for years (because the characters had better already know, or they’re all screwed), and we were all the better for it.

Man, even in TMP, Kirk yells “Wormhole!”, Scotty later says the engine imbalance that caused it hadn’t been fixed — wormhole gets mentioned twice, so quickly it’s tough to understand without rewinding and nobody had to take 45 seconds of screen time to explain what the heck it was (to me, who was 8 and looked around in dictionaries and popular science magazines at libraries and hounded science teachers for years to figure out what it was — which is actually pretty awesome).

490. boborci - March 29, 2011

“Tell me something, Bob –if “classical physics” was really such a “deep” concern of yours while you were writing the script to the first movie, why then do many of the characters get sucked into a singularity and manage to survive, let alone getting spit out its other side?

Numerous, current, best theoretical physicist claim that black holes and wormholes possibly interchangeable. Our heroes survived because they were in WARP CAPABLE SHIPS. So, if a swimmer comes across a whirlpool, he is dead. But if he comes across it with a boat, he can navigate around it. Wheeler and Thorne (two giants in theoretical physics) speculate that if someone could avoid the singularity of a spinning black hole, they might be able to come out in another universe. We figure, a warp capable ship might be the only way. Incidentally, more based on physics than the flex capacitor.

“And Gee, destroying a planet sure does look easy in the movie too while we’re at it. Are you kidding?”

No. Some people today fear the Hadron Collider because it could create a black hole that could swallow the earth. And that’s TODAY. So forgive me if we speculate that it might be possible to create a black hole nearly A HALF MILLENNIUM FROM NOW.

“And we’re supposed to simply disregard all pre-existing canon just to accommodate your movie besides?”

No. We didn’t disregard it. The whole movie can be seen as the sequel to the remaining TOS character, Mr. Spock.

“Why then does your movie actually rely on it so as to put forth a particular impression about the characters we’re seeing and the universe they inhabit?”

Don’t know what this means.

“Why does young Kirk ask elder Spock if he ever knew his father, with Spock actually giving him an answer based on history and the life he had led up to that point if he doesn’t even know for sure who he’s dealing with and what his father was actually like as a person? Come on man, that’s a joke if ever I heard one.”

Kirk asks because, in conversation with Prime, he realizes things WERE DIFFERENT FOR PRIME as a result of learning that Prime and Nero have come back and changed things. So he wonders, since Nero killed his dad in this universe, and since he now nows Nero is from the future, if his father lived Where prime was from. No joke. Pure logic.

“You’re a writer, and you’re saying that the average movie-goer has to be well-versed in Quantum Mechanics in order to actually understand your movie?”

No, not your average viewer. Your average viewer will think it is classical physics. That’s how i got my cake and ate it, two. This appears to piss you off.

“LMAO –yeah, good going there, Bob. Great defense all right, aside from the fact that it obviously doesn’t hold up besides, all things considered.”

Rhetoric with no cited foundation.

“I also wonder how many people would have requested refunds at the door before going into the theater if they had found that out upon walking into the lobby after purchasing one.”

Clearly, that didn’t happen given that our trek was highest grossing EVER, even adjusted for inflation.

“Oh, and just for the record –I don’t hate your movie, even though you seem to think so apparently. I thought it was okay as a popcorn action flick, but not especially good “Star Trek” though otherwise.”

I don’t think you hated it. You wouldn’t be here time and time again if you did. Clearly, it got your mind fired up. And I appreciate your attention and passion, if if you disagree with me:)

491. moauvian waoul- aka: seymour hiney - March 29, 2011

484. Why do you insist on being wrong? Here you have the opportunity to ask one of the writers and creators why he did what he did. And your response is: he’s wrong? And it’s because it is not consistent with what came before, when obviously you choose to ignore the fact that Star Trek is chock full of inconsistencies, and even though your view was not depicted in the movie with the certainty you claim necessary to fomulate the opposite opinion, nor was it ever the intent of the creative team. While it’s true you’ve raised some interesting and thought provoking points, this matter seems settled.

492. boborci - March 29, 2011

490.

Flux?

493. Red Dead Ryan - March 29, 2011

492.
…….

Don’t you just hate those damned typos, Bob?

On the other hand, apparently the “flex capacitor” (steroids) is why Barry Bonds is on trial. :-)

494. Jack - March 29, 2011

490. Holy. Another chapter for the sacred texts.

Er, and the supernova (would it take 10,000 years for the wave to travel10,000 light years, and would that wave keep going even after the star was collapsed)? Magnetic interference from Saturn’s rings? Just askin. :)

And, didn’t you guys make any “mistakes” (defined as you see fit)?

495. Phil - March 29, 2011

493. Red Dead Ryan – March 29, 2011
hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa…
Yeah, a Dodger fan, too….

496. MJ - March 29, 2011

@490. YOU ARE THE MAN, BOB!

If I was StarFury, my only response could be:

PLEASE SIR, MAY I HAVE ANOTHER

497. Captain Robert April - March 29, 2011

A ship is no longer warp capable if you eject the warp core. Which they did. While well within the event horizon.

Sorry, but it’s kinda ludicrous to cite classical physics to back up a film that operates under the physical laws generally shown in the typical Warner Brothers cartoon.

498. MJ - March 29, 2011

@497 “A ship is no longer warp capable if you eject the warp core. Which they did. While well within the event horizon.”

The ejection and detination of the core created a powerful warp field that ejected them. Didn’t you watch the movie???

499. MJ - March 29, 2011

@494

Saturn, the rings, and many of the satellites lie totally within Saturn’s enormous magnetosphere, the region of space in which the behavior of electrically charged particles is influenced more by Saturn’s magnetic field than by the solar wind. And this field is about 600 times the strength of Earths.

500. Captain Robert April - March 29, 2011

Since when does ejecting a warp core cause anything besides a colossal explosion?

Warp cores don’t generate the warp field. That’s what the warp coils in the nacelles are for. The warp core only generates the power.

501. MJ - March 29, 2011

@500. Ah, I forgot, you are a 23rd Century physicist who knows this for a fact. Please share with me your complete engineering design of the warp system when you have a chance. I’ll put in in my computer folder labeled Transparent Aluminum.

502. Captain Robert April - March 29, 2011

Somebody get Rick Sternbach on the line, I seem to recall his having a hand in a tech manual or two on the subject….

503. MJ - March 29, 2011

Rich Sternback did the Next Generation technical manuals…TNG was the Trek series with all the techno-babble. You should be referring to the 1975 Franz Joseph technical manual — that is the only one that I would trust as providing some clues as to how the Enterprise in the movie functions.

However, due to the alternate time-line, this E is bigger and obviously is not the original universe Enterprise. Therefore, there is some latitude given to the design, such as having a function built into the warp cores that would allow a one-shot warp field detonation in an emergency situation.

504. Jack - March 29, 2011

499. Wow, thanks. I’m just repeating something Carolyn Porco said here, to the effect that the rings themselves don’t have their own field. I’m not smart enough to have an opinion of my own.

501. Well, that’s the way it’s been written for years. If they detonated the apparently multiple warp cores (and they exploded – matter/antimatter), they’d be left with only impulse (it’s powered separately, no?) and would have had to have been towed back to Earth, or something. Although maybe there was one or two cores left. And wouldn’t just ejecting the antimatter holder thing have created as large an explosion? I know, I know.

Speaking of the flux capacitor — all the paradoxes, timeline changes and necessary fixes (and lines needed to explain all of those) really bogged down the second Back to the Future.

I like that Trek 09 wasn’t really a movie about time travel. The time travel was a plot device, but no one was racing (why race when you can time travel?) to get back to the future.

And the one way journey makes more sense, intuitively, because time travel in movies never quite effs up the future as much as it should — a couple of simple things get fixed and everything’s back to pretty much the way it was and our hero can simply go back to where he came from (in the first one, would Marty still have the same brother and sister — would his changed parents have conceived them on the same night? And when he returned to the slightly changed future, where he has an awesome truck, what happened to the version of him who was already there, er, who, I gues, also would have travelled in the delorean, or would he have, or maybe he was immune to the effect, or… see?). It’s a comedy, so it doesn’t matter — but Star Trek has, as we keep alluding to, that reputation (sometimes unearned) of at least attempting to appear as scientifically feasible as a show about really hot green women can.

And the ol’ “well, that’s the way it originally happened (Mark Twain had always visited the Enterprise) but we didn’t know it” solution’s fun, but doesn’t always hold up logically (I know, I know, it’s not real…).

It’s kind of why, while the Voyage Home was fun, it seemed wrong that the crew, even under the circumstances, would be so blithely interacting with so many people.

In Star Trek 09, the time travel effed things up like crazy. To me, that’s great.

505. Captain Robert April - March 29, 2011

This all boils down to a simple question: If you don’t want to operate within the established rules of a given universe, like Star Trek, then why not just do an original story in your own universe?

Do you think I’d get very far with a Hawaii Five-0 story where McGarrett is a flaming drag queen, Danny is a closet axe murderer, Chin suddenly has a fear of the water and Kono quits the team to pursue her childhood dream of becoming a bull rider? No, nor should I, because, while it might be a compelling story, THAT AIN’T HAWAII FIVE-0!

But, what’s done is done, can’t undo the last film. Write whatever the hell you want, Bob, but don’t expect to get nothing but sweetness and fluffy bunnies when the last offering is kind of lacking in a lot of areas regarding how well it followed Star Trek’s basic ground rules.

506. MJ - March 29, 2011

@504.

I think the dialogue in the movie could have been improved to say “Saturn’s magnetic field, combined with the visual/mass protection within the rings” — but that is a mouthful, so I can understand the need to simplify it.

Regarding the atfer-effects of the warp core detonation, I assumed they had to call for help and get new warp cores installed before the headed back to Earth. Obviously there was no need to deal with that scene in the movie.

Remember, Star Trek is pretty much standard science fiction, not HARD science fiction. Think of Star Wars as science fantasy, Star Trek as science fiction, and 2001: A Space Odyssey as Hard Science Fiction. As you move up this ladder from SW to ST to 2001, at each stage, you have to provide more credibility to the science.

Anyone expecting Star Trek to be HARD SF like Captain April is always going to be setting themselves up for disappointment in my opinion. Star Trek TMP was the closest thing to Hard SF that we have seen in Trek.

507. MJ - March 29, 2011

@505 “Do you think I’d get very far with a Hawaii Five-0 story where McGarrett is a flaming drag queen”

That is a great example, as in one episode they had someone using a cell phone in a submarine, which of course is physically impossible.

You can pretty much find multiple physics and science problems with even non-sf shows. At some point you have to relax and just be happy when the creators get most of it right, as they did with Trek 09. Again, this is not 2001: A Space Odyssey (i.e. this is not hard sf) here that we are talking about.

Nitpicking about the precise terminology of the components of a fictitious warp drive isn’t a very useful exercise, especially if you are going to base it on the techno-babble from the TNG Trek series.

508. Captain Robert April - March 29, 2011

ST09 barely rated as space fantasy. Iron Man has better science.

509. MJ - March 29, 2011

@508. Whatever. LOL

510. Jack - March 30, 2011

508. Fair enough. And, I don’t expect Star Trek to be hard sf, although I like when it strives to get the scientific details it does use right (based on what we know now). And, you know, not only the scientific details, but the ways in which starfleet would operate in space. TMP did it okay (and I don’t think it has to feel all cold and joyless to get the science right) and I think TWOK did it just as well. The fictional stuff, like how warp drive works, well, the less said about it the better.

Just “Saturn’s magnetic field” or “the magnetic field from Saturn (which is a word shorter than the original line, or was it “the planet”) would have worked. :) I know, fan armchair quarterbacking. Years later.

I know it’s crazy nitpicking. And I’m not trying to piss off Bob, who seems, understandably, more than a little defensive. And it’s not like they can easily show the script to, or discuss ideas with, a bunch of university professors, given the concern over leaks. Unless they hired a science adviser or two and bound them to secrecy.

The story, and the characters are what matters. They certainly didn’t turn Kirk into a flaming drag queen. There’s always the sequel.

And, more importantly, it showed us stuff we haven’t seen before, in Trek, and, I think, generally (a planet collapsing! orbital skydiving! a drill suspended from a ship! a slave girl in a bra and panties!). And it finally gave us a space where no one can hear you scream.

But, I think there is a, er, responsibility to get scientific terms as right as possible, as the characters would use them, whenever possible and when it doesn’t mess up the flow or the story — a responsibility to kids who were turned on to science by Trek. And also a responsibility to the characters. They’d know what they were talking about.

Keep it simple, sure. Omit unnecessary explanations. But don’t dumb it down to the point of getting it wrong. If you can help it.

The supernova threatening the (known) universe still bugs me. Maybe Spock became fond of hyperbole on Romulus. I need to do some research. The explanation in the mind meld monologue took me out of the movie – it was, ‘wait, what? that doesn’t make sense.’ It killed my buzz. Like I said, the writers likely know more about supernovae than I do.

P.S. If your Transparent Aluminum Folder was made of transparent aluminum, you wouldn’t have to open it.

511. Jack - March 30, 2011

Sorry. I meant 506. Fair enough… etc.

512. MJ - March 30, 2011

@510. Yea, the supernova threatening the galaxy was the one glaring mistake that I noticed as well…that is why I did not try to defend it.

513. Jack - March 30, 2011

… and not slave girl.

514. MJ - March 30, 2011

@513. LOL Well, we all have our weaknesses.

515. Jack - March 30, 2011

512. Maybe it’s been talked about previously and explained somewhere here? Maybe they just didn’t care? I’ve never been fond of “the whole galaxy,” “the whole universe” lines in Trek — McCoy in Trek VI saying Gorkon was the last hope in the universe for peace (likely not the case). :)

Every version of Trek has had mistakes. The ones that bug me are the ones that take me out of the story. Heck, every one of my posts here has far more.

Nice talking with you. Have a swell night.

516. MJ - March 30, 2011

Agreed. Vice versa!

517. Rick Sternbach - March 30, 2011

#502 – Oh no, you’re not going to pull me into thi– oh, okay. I won’t even attempt to talk about the warp engine system in the 2009 movie; I can’t wrap my head around it. The TNG/DS9/Voy era warp system, I can describe in a few simple words: think of it as an internal combustion engine. You have fuel, you have a place where the fuel creates energy, and you have a mechanism where the energy provides motive power. Cut off the fuel supply (matter or antimatter), the engine stops. Maybe you get a PTC overpressure that has to be vented, otherwise it ‘splodes (engine room drama). Drop the core, and the ship either glides to a fading warp field stop, or it just doesn’t go. Sploosh out the matter (slush or liquid deuterium), and it simply vaporizes. Drop the antimatter pods, on the other hand, and you’ve got some real danger when the mag containment field fades out. Very much like what makes the warhead in a photon torpedo (also in the TNG manual). Maybe what got tossed out the new Enterprise were really antimatter kegs; that’s the only massively energetic thing I can think of, but they certainly didn’t describe them as such in dialogue. Pardon me; I have to get back to my continuous cycle fractionators. :)

518. Jack - March 30, 2011

517. “Pardon me…”

Ha.

Hmmm, plenty of kegs in a brewery ;).

(And I liked engineering in Trek 09, but I like a lame joke more).

519. MJ - March 30, 2011

@517 @518

Yea, buy using the term “antimatter keg”, Rick inadvertently validated the use of the Budweiser brewery as the engine room for Trek 09 — the one thing I really couldn’t stand about the Enterprise in the movie…argh! :-)

520. BeatleJWOL - March 30, 2011

@510
“The supernova threatening the (known) universe still bugs me. Maybe Spock became fond of hyperbole on Romulus. I need to do some research. The explanation in the mind meld monologue took me out of the movie – it was, ‘wait, what? that doesn’t make sense.’ It killed my buzz. Like I said, the writers likely know more about supernovae than I do.”

Read the back cover summary of any of the Pocket Star Trek novels. They ALL end with the universe being threatened. It’s somewhat hilarious, actually. :p

521. keachick - March 30, 2011

“Do you think I’d get very far with a Hawaii Five-0 story where McGarrett is a flaming drag queen, Danny is a closet axe murderer, Chin suddenly has a fear of the water and Kono quits the team to pursue her childhood dream of becoming a bull rider? No, nor should I, because, while it might be a compelling story, THAT AIN’T HAWAII FIVE-0!”

No, it ain’t Hawaii Five-0 and they did not do that to Hawaii Five-0 and nor did Orci/Kurtzman and the team treat Star Trek like this either. To make this kind of statement just shows you to be rude and facetious.

522. Trekboi - March 30, 2011

Why even bother with a sequel 3 years later?
the momentum is gone- the iron is cold & nobody remembers it .
they will have to start from scratch all over again- re-relaunch the brand.
waist of $150 million.

523. Trekboi - March 30, 2011

noone outside of the star trek fan base- the point of the reboot was to get the non trek viewers but they have missed out on the opportunity

524. Syboks younger brother - March 30, 2011

522/23

lol in that case whyd they bother about Empire, Temple of Doom, Dark Knight or even Wrath of Khan?

and what about seuels to Alien and Terminator that came 7 years after the first one?

you guys of the ‘i want everything now!’ generation have gotta learn a little patience!

525. Syboks younger brother - March 30, 2011

469 “But I understand the frustration. We had our cake and ate it, two (meaning twice) in that the movie can only be wholly understood knowing QM, this those that don’t bother to think that deep can fall back on classical physics and enjoy the movie that way.”

hi bob thats always been my take on Trek 09 too…

the fans/QM aware know that its intended to be a multiple universe thing like “Parallels” and the original timeline still exists..(i.e. last page of Countdown)

Casual fans and average joe moviegoers with a vague recollection of what came b4 (TOS , movies , TNG etc) will just assume that the previous timeline is gone and this is a new start . So a traditional timetravel thing with a changed timeline like Back to the Future, Star Trek IV etc (even though it can be argued by the end of those movies the central characters are in alternate realities)

i had this with my bro a while ago – he considers himself to be a big fan of trek (but actually dosnt really know that much) and was suprised when i told him the ‘prime’ timeline would still exist

526. rtrj - March 30, 2011

To Bob Orci,

Thank you for breathing new life into something that was dying, if not dead already.
You had the thankless job of trying not to offend the Trek legalists while being charged to reach the “untreked” . If I were a writer and that talented I would be be terrified to take on the challenge of Star Trek and it’s purists. It amazes me reading here the people who claim to love Star Trek and yet refuse to watch ST09 because of canon. I was 17 when I watched TOS for the first time in “66” and I learned to live with the crew being tossed about and the other glaring errors because I was watching an image of
adventure and new hope while I lived in a pretty sorry world. Thanks again Bob.

527. NuFan - March 30, 2011

526.
It amazes me reading here the people who claim to love Star Trek and yet refuse to watch ST09 because of canon.

Oh, believe me, they watched it more than you or I did. And they’ll watch the sequel just as much.

528. GoDFaDDa - March 30, 2011

Star Trek, and other shows from that time period, managed to create character drama and interesting interactions without having to show origins. Part of the appeal was watching a *professional* captain and crew take on major challenges while still displaying their humanity.

That’s one of the things that I feel most movies and TV shows have lost nowadays – characters demonstrating professionalism in their jobs.

529. Michael Hall - March 30, 2011

“Like I said, the writers likely know more about supernovae than I do.”

Actually, I doubt that very much.

530. gingerly - March 30, 2011

Bob, if you’re still following this thread, please don’t be tempted to simplify your script or make some things in it much easier (too easy) to interpret.

…Because that’s another big issue I’ve had with too many movies these days.

It seems that often they explain everything in the most clear and literal manner possible, leaving out the fun and challenge of actually using that brain matter we have, to listen and watch closely to the clues, to figure these things out or even to choose to interpret things another way, sacrificing any possibility of longevity for the final product, in the process.

In a society full of media items that continue to make us more and more intellectually lazy, every year, this also helps to train parts of the audience to expect these things to be laid out that way to them, to forgo the true pleasure it is to gain a little bit of extra understanding and nuance with every new viewing.

..And it so it contributes to the increasing tide of dumbed-down films.

This usually happens most with films designated as being for “family” or the “the kids” and I absolutely abhor it, especially in that case.

I do because, these are actually the members of the audience who deserve the most consideration, because young people grow with these films. They are the ones most likely to come back and view with new eyes and extra understanding, but only if the films are given that kind of care.

Please, don’t be tempted by this discussion to dumb anything down in your script or make everything so clear and literal as to make any thorough explanations seem shoehorned in.

Part of the fun is figuring it out.

Realize that for some, they never will.

Better to be a little smarter and rely on some of your audience to explain it to the others, than to be forever overly-simple, with no zero re-watch value whatsoever, even for those who would’ve needed it otherwise.

531. Varda - March 30, 2011

I think 2 years is way too long. I get why some people would want that – I mean, it’s obvious pretty much everyone here is a die-hard, long time Trekker and you’ve all seen every movies and TOS – but there’s now also a lot of people that became fans just because of the latest movie. AND – I am so going to be hanged for this – I don’t really want to get into what Star Trek was originally, because it’s such a different universe, really apart from the reboot.

I fear that choosing to makes the reboot and its sequel too much time apart from each other would just be confusing – it’d be quite tempting to fall into the same patterns as the ‘old’ movies, and frankly, I don’t want that. I like the dynamic the new movie started, it got me hooked. And as people have already mentioned, this is a different universe. We can have glimpses of what happened in TOS, but just rehashing the same stories would be wasted opportunities, I think.

I really want to see the crew bonding together, and I’d be fairly disappointed if we just jumped into the sequel with the crew already highly efficient and at ease and everything. I want to see some stumbling steps to get there (there= badassness.)

There. I may not be a Trekker like you, but I still feel the epicness that lies in the reboot. My opinion may not matter but… I felt it had to be said, as we (new fans) are such a minority among you XD

532. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 30, 2011

Time Travel is a very tircky thing. There are many universes out there with different timelines. The Prime timeline is intact and continuing as well as the new timeline. Spock prime because of the Black hole is in the new timeline and he also knows that the orignal timeline is still going. What I think that Bob Orci and the court did was brilliant in that they can have new and fresh stories with the orignal crew of the Enterprise with out trying to write a story in the prime universe that would be picked apart by hard core Trek fans. I am a Hard Core Trek fan and I know I would be one who would be picking a story in the Prime univers apart. In this Universe I can relax and enjoy the new stories as long as Bob and the court give us some canon stories even though they are new and fresh.

533. gingerly - March 30, 2011

A good example of this kind of dumbing down is I Am Legend.

That movie would’ve been awesome had they used the much more meaningful alternate ending, that test audiences rejected.

534. Damian - March 30, 2011

Seems like the debate regarding stardates and parallel universes has gotten pretty passionate.

My take–I accept the parallel universe idea because the writers have said it is a parallel universe. TNG episode “Parallels” and the original series episode “Mirror, Mirror” and the DS9 mirror episodes justify the existence of these other universes. There are different modes of time travel explored in Star Trek. Some are linear such as “Tomorrow is Yesterday” “Assignment Earth” Star Trek IV, First Contact, “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, etc, etc. where a change affects the prime timeline and needs to be fixed. Some are parallel universes like Mirror Mirror and Parallels. I am not going to drive myself nuts looking for nuanced explanations in the movie. Besides, it’s fiction. I am not going to go and burn my other 10 movies and 5 TV series because of Star Trek (2009).

The stardates were hard to follow until the time of TNG. The original series seemed to run in a more or less 5 year pattern from 1000 to 5000 (including the animated series) though there were exceptions. Then the movies changed from 1000 for every year to every 10 years or thereabouts. Then during the TNG onto Voyager, they seemed to follow a hard rule of 1000 for every year. I will admit the canon-ite in me was a bit put off by the new stardate system in the new movie by applying a stardate as a year. I would have preferred them to use a traditional date instead, since stardates were obviously not started based on the original series until the 2260′s. But not a big deal. I got over it.

I liked the new movie. I had some minor complaints, but nothing in life is perfect.

535. Damian - March 30, 2011

517–We gotta get you some antimatter and deuterium and see what you can do.

I for one was never bothered by the technobabble (though I admit in a 2 hour movie, it needs to be toned down a bit). It gave Star Trek a certain realistic quality. In reality, astronauts in space talk techno all the time. I never found it to detract from the story in the TV series. Really, before message boards and blogs, I never really gave it any thought. Until a few years ago I was unaware it even had it’s own name (technobabble).

Even the new movie took some liberties to get the story out. You have to, otherwise nothing would ever get solved in a movie.

536. Phil - March 30, 2011

535…
The technobabble needs to be kept to a minimum. The less said about how Warp drive works, the better.

Actually, this proves the point about there needing to be a few years between movies 11 and 12 – even today, our militaties are very high tech, and there is no sceanario imaginable where crews would be manning ships,planes, or whatever without extensive testing, trials and qualifications. The days of brevetting, battlefield promoted or commissioned are over because there is no way to master the technology without training.

537. Jack - March 30, 2011

530. Agreed.

538. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 30, 2011

One of the things I loved about Stargate Sg1 was that evey time that Capt or Major Carter would try and tell Col. Oneill about something and use Techono babble he would always give this face and say something to the effect of English please. I know they can’t do it like that in Star Trek But the idea is to not have to much techono and if you do make it to where the common people like Col. Oneill can understand it.

539. Stardate - March 30, 2011

boborci – Memory Alpha is wondering why stardates 2230.06 and 2233.04 appeared in the film (the first one in a deleted scene), given your quotes about a range of .1 to .365 for the fraction. With the correct number of placeholders, the expected range would be .001 to .365, not .01 to .365.

540. Phil - March 30, 2011

522. Trekboi – March 30, 2011

How was Trek 11 a waste of 150MM? They told an entertaining story, and made a lot of money.

541. boborci - March 30, 2011

539.

I do believe that may be a screw up!

542. keachick - March 30, 2011

#528 – “Part of the appeal was watching a *professional* captain and crew take on major challenges while still displaying their humanity.

That’s one of the things that I feel most movies and TV shows have lost nowadays – characters demonstrating professionalism in their jobs.”

What do you mean? Please explain with examples.

543. keachick - March 30, 2011

#541 That’s OK. These dates, stardates etc all give me a headache anyway. There is so much bellyaching here about times, dates etc with people getting undies in knots about when Kirk was meant to have done this or that, whether Chekov is 8 or 10 years younger and on and on it goes… This just seems largely irrelevant and a negative distraction for the most part.

When watching TOS I did not know what stardate/year/whatever Kirk was born in – all I knew was that he was born around Iowa, grew up there with two parents and a brother, was 30 something and the youngest person in Starfleet to become captain of a starship.

In this alternate universe, Kirk is in his late 20s when he gets command of the Enterprise. Spock is older by at least 10 years (maybe more – Vulcans don’t age as fast as humans), so is Bones and Scotty. Sulu is probably about the same age as Kirk, as is Lt Uhura and Chekov is younger than all of them by a few years. That’s all we need to know. They are all live in the mid 23rd century. There – sorted.

What I would like to know is what sort of aptitude tests Kirk took at a younger age which had him score “off the charts” as in very high indeed. I made a suggestion some time back that the young Kirk may have been sent on a survival training course and then thrown into the forests in Fiordland, South Island, NZ with a few others and told to make their way out. (Some areas of Fiordland have still not been explored today (2011) as the terrain is so rugged). Very beautiful but can also be quite treacherous country as well. Luckily no snakes. There you are for a scenario – how do you think Kirk did? Who became the natural leader? Solved any puzzles first? but did not know or think about the possibility of not believing in any no-win scenario, but can we even be sure about that?

And of course, there are other possibilities as to what those aptitude tests might have been. Pike was not there at that bar and *just happened to look up Jim Kirk’s file while he was drooling on the floor*. Pike was headhunting James T Kirk!

544. SirBroiler - March 30, 2011

Enterprise finds empty Botany Bay. Khan was rescued by Klingons. Go from there, Bob.

545. Phil - March 30, 2011

Isn’t the question, how many years (months, days) have elapsed between movies?

546. Stardate - March 30, 2011

541 – Thanks! So for the record, the intent is that Spock was born on 2230.6 (January 6) and Kirk on January 4 (2233.4)? Also, the fraction goes up to .366 in a leap year?

547. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

#490. boborci
“Numerous, current, best theoretical physicist claim that black holes and wormholes possibly interchangeable.”

You would have been better off going with a wormhole, but I guess that would have been too conventional with your goal of setting a new tone with new boundaries for the Trek universe.

“Our heroes survived because they were in WARP CAPABLE SHIPS. So, if a swimmer comes across a whirlpool, he is dead. But if he comes across it with a boat, he can navigate around it. Wheeler and Thorne (two giants in theoretical physics) speculate that if someone could avoid the singularity of a spinning black hole, they might be able to come out in another universe.”

That’s a colossal “if” to say the least, and there’s a reason it had never been done in “Star Trek” before as I’m sure you know, unless you count Voyager 6 in TMP, and even there they were pushing it way beyond reasonable limits, because it’s impossible to survive without being crushed.

And you would have done better to reference Roy Kerr IMHO, whose theory about being able to surpass the Einstein-Rosen bridge and pop out the other side of a black hole into a parallel universe goes back considerably farther, to before either of us had even been born. That being said, however, I’m okay–up to a point anyway–with the seemingly impossible in Star Trek being possible despite the seemingly impossible odds of passing through and surviving a black hole, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. The issue has been whether Spock Prime crossed over into another universe or whether the one he had inhabited up to that point had been changed by what Nero had done in his own ship. You have chosen not to take a definitive position on the matter, at least within the film itself, and that’s what annoys. And your terminology within the film itself conveys a deliberate impression contrary to what you’re willing to acknowledge openly –at least from a script standpoint. You want it both ways: Yes, it’s a new and separate universe, versus No it’s not. And why be so vague with respect to your intent concerning MWI within the film itself, where it’s never even mentioned? I have demonstrated to you that the use of the term “alternate reality” in the film also has a very clear meaning that doesn’t necessarily lend itself to what you’re insisting must be the case supposedly—again, outside the film I might add. The term also easily refers to an ALTERED UNIVERSE, which we have seen many times before in “Star Trek,” so where exactly is your proof? Clearly what you asserted to me just the other day as ‘clinching it’ supposedly does anything but obviously, as I have shown you. So why keep insisting otherwise? Why not just acknowledge that it is what it is: playing both sides against the middle at best, and hedging your bets? And yet you appear to be annoyed that you’ve actually been called on it by someone, which I confess to finding somewhat amusing, because the slippery duplicity of it is both galling and funny all at the same time.

“And Gee, destroying a planet sure does look easy in the movie too while we’re at it. Are you kidding?”

“No. Some people today fear the Hadron Collider because it could create a black hole that could swallow the earth.”

“People”, not credible scientists.

“And that’s TODAY. So forgive me if we speculate that it might be possible to create a black hole nearly A HALF MILLENNIUM FROM NOW.”

Your movie has been criticized by credible scientists for the lack of credible science in that particular scene. Yes, we’re talking about fantasy science fiction here, so you’re free to take liberties of course, but you’re the one who chose to make classical physics and QM an issue rather than just acknowledging that your film is not as cut and dry as you would like to make it out to be here now with respect to your use of terminology in it, which you appear content to try and have it both ways on.

“And we’re supposed to simply disregard all pre-existing canon just to accommodate your movie besides?”

“No. We didn’t disregard it. The whole movie can be seen as the sequel to the remaining TOS character, Mr. Spock.”

Then Spock must have been stoned to let the destruction of Vulcan just stand like that without feeling the need to go back and try and change it. That’s what the Spock we knew would have focused on following that kind of a massive disaster.

“Why then does your movie actually rely on it so as to put forth a particular impression about the characters we’re seeing and the universe they inhabit?”

“Don’t know what this means.”

Very simply, either they are the people we and Spock Prime knew, or they aren’t, despite the events that had impacted their lives as a result of Nero’s incursion and his dastardly acts.

“Why does young Kirk ask elder Spock if he ever knew his father, with Spock actually giving him an answer based on history and the life he had led up to that point if he doesn’t even know for sure who he’s dealing with and what his father was actually like as a person? Come on man, that’s a joke if ever I heard one.”

“Kirk asks because, in conversation with Prime, he realizes things WERE DIFFERENT FOR PRIME as a result of learning that Prime and Nero have come back and changed things. So he wonders, since Nero killed his dad in this universe, and since he now nows Nero is from the future, if his father lived Where prime was from. No joke. Pure logic.”

Yes, but that’s a different timeline obviously, and potentially a completely different universe entirely. It would be like Kirk asking Mirror Spock in the Mirror universe if his father was actually a nice guy in that universe, or if he beat his doppelganger there mercilessly so as to turn him into such a miserable bastard that prime Kirk would never even want to know in his wildest, most far-out dreams.

“You’re a writer, and you’re saying that the average movie-goer has to be well-versed in Quantum Mechanics in order to actually understand your movie?”

“No, not your average viewer. Your average viewer will think it is classical physics. That’s how i got my cake and ate it, two. This appears to piss you off.”

The only thing that irks me is the way your movie appears to cavalierly wipe out longstanding canon, which took decades to develop, and if that isn’t what appears to be going on in the movie, then you could have gone that extra half a step further to make that clearer, similar to the way Foster went about it in his novelization, but you didn’t.

“LMAO –yeah, good going there, Bob. Great defense all right, aside from the fact that it obviously doesn’t hold up besides, all things considered.”

“Rhetoric with no cited foundation.”

Your wanting to have it both ways is the foundation. It either is what you want it to say now or it isn’t, you can’t have it both ways, and likewise, you can by no means in any way criticize me for taking a view of the film as you intended based on the way you chose to design it.

548. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

485. MJ
“@484. Wow, did you really just say all that to Roberto Orci? Not cool! If you, Orci and I were in a bar right now, I would have to pour my beer over your head…no, I am not joking.”

Well, that sure does say a lot more about your obvious lack of civility than it does mine, doesn’t it.

And I think I handled my response to him very well considering the extent to which he had just made it a point of deliberately trying to insult my intelligence.

549. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 30, 2011

Bob. What is in a Fraction. Lol. The main thing is you told a wonderful and exciting story. The only real gripe I have about Trek 09 and I know I have said this many times. Engeneering. It has to become a real 23rd Century Engeneering room and not a Beer Brewery. I know Scotty likes to drink but as Harry Doyale said in the Movie Major league (Played by the Great Bob Uecker) Just a bit outside!.

550. keachick - March 30, 2011

The time elapsed between Star Trek 09 and the sequel which has not been made yet is so far – 1 year, 10 months, 2 weeks and 6 days (or 5 days for the Northern Hemisphere slow coaches).

Bob – You have 13 hours and five minutes to have the script completed and wrapped in that cuddly rug we talked about…Just saying. No pressure.

551. MJ - March 30, 2011

@549 “The only real gripe I have about Trek 09 and I know I have said this many times. Engineering. It has to become a real 23rd Century Engineering room and not a Beer Brewery.”

BOB, I THINK THE FAN’S ARE NEARLY 100% IN SOLIDARITY ON THIS — YOU HAVE GOT TO MAKE JJ AWARE THAT THE BREWERY CONCEPT IS DOA FOR THE NEW MOVIE>>>> WE WANT A REAL 23RD CENTURY ENGINE ROOM!!!!!

552. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

486.
“Unfortunately, some fans need things spelled out for them because A) They’re idiots or B) they’re too lazy to use their imagination and brains to figure it out because they automatically believe that the price they paid for their ticket came with the condition that one can leave their brain at the door because the movie will explain everything for them.”

More IDIC-loving, exceedingly open-minded Trek fans willing to embrace the diversity of thought of others apparently.

Quite a crowd obviously.

553. MJ - March 30, 2011

@548 “Well, that sure does say a lot more about your obvious lack of civility than it does mine, doesn’t it.”

Well, based all the civility you’ve earned here, I would act in a manner that would be fully consistent with you predilection for irrelevancy, and also to include a group laugh at the superior intellect. :-)

554. keachick - March 30, 2011

To StarFuryG7: No, the problem is with you trying to insult our intelligence with your rhetoric and unreasoned assertions. If I am correct, most of us did not NEED Bob Orci, nor necessarily had to read the Countdown comic to get the gist of the Many Worlds Interpretation that Orci chose to use to tell this story. It is just nice that Bob Orci confirms what many of us have concluded already.

“The issue has been whether Spock Prime crossed over into another universe or whether the one he had inhabited up to that point had been changed by what Nero had done in his own ship.”

This is NOT an issue because it is not relevant. It is neither here nor there what affects Nero may have had on the prime universe, because this Trek does not take place in that universe. There are now TWO (2) universes!!!

Bob Orci – “No. Some people today fear the Hadron Collider because it could create a black hole that could swallow the earth.”
StarFury – “People”, not credible scientists.”

So, are you saying that the PEOPLE working on experiments at the Hadron Collider in Switzerland right now, possibly as we speak, are not credible scientists? The fact is that this whole MWI, Grandfather Paradox and other theories are just that – theories about how time, space etc may operate, could operate, does operate already perhaps. Bob Orci took the most favoured theory at the moment, one many credible scientists think as likely as any other notion to actually work and ran with it.

“Good God, man” – NOBODY knows for sure about any of this. So why are you calling out Bob (and the Robot Team, for the matter) for writing an interesting science fiction story, with a possible/probable scenario?

555. MJ - March 30, 2011

@547, Good God, man, that is like 10 pages or response to Orci. Ah, this makes me wish I was back doing my Masters Thesis again — this would be great material for my “process over substance” real-world examples appendix.

Say, given you call yourself Starfury, after the Babylon 5 fighter ship I assume, can you please explain to me the full science behind the Shadows technology, and the physical science behind the method of transcendence as portrayed in this favored show of yours? I know you are a stickler for scientific reality, so I am really looking forward to your well thought out response?

556. dmduncan - March 30, 2011

Bob, you did nothing wrong. You can probably count on your fingers how many fans are tying themselves into knots on the question of why you didn’t make it clearer to THEM that MWI rules were in effect, when the majority of us had no problem immediately understanding the words you used, and have no difficulty overcoming our prejudices to understanding what it was YOU were doing in the NEW movie, since it was a new movie having nobody in common with the original series other than Leonard Nimoy.

Why any fan would make himself believe, given that fact, that the movie would pick up and mirror TOS on precisely every point is an error of common sense that belongs exclusively to the fan having that difficulty to overcome. Just knowing that it’s a new movie with an entirely new production crew should make every fan aware that things may not be done in the new franchise the way they were in the series.

Please don’t write for the lowest common denominator of fans. Make us work, make us think. You aren’t writing sacred illusions for fans to lose themselves inside of, you’re writing Star Trek. It should engage us with the world we live in, not remove us from it.

Sorry to say this, but I think it’s true that you need to save some fans from themselves.

557. trekker 5 - March 30, 2011

Mr.Orci, i know youve had alot of Q&A today. so i just want 2 tell ya hi & i love Treko9. so all i really have 2 say is. . . .Give me more! we all want MORE!!!! thank you 4 your time.

558. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

#553. MJ
“Well, based all the civility you’ve earned here, I would act in a manner that would be fully consistent with you predilection for irrelevancy, and also to include a group laugh at the superior intellect. :-) ”

This has been your contribution to the discourse here, and nothing else.

559. Mel - March 30, 2011

@ boborci

I was wondering, why Vulcan and Earth weren’t better defended? Sure some star ships were elsewhere, but there still should have been some left at Vulcan and Earth. I mean those planets are probably two of the most important planets of the whole Federation. They should have never been left unprotected. There should have been some space stations with weapon platforms. Some space mines, which could have been activated. Some weapons, which could shoot from the planets into space and destroy enemy ships. Overall those planets were not good enough defended. It appears unrealistic to let them so vulnerable.

I overall really like the movie. It is very nice to have again a movie with the TOS characters. TOS is my favourite Star Trek series, although it was made long before my birth. There were just some things in the new movie, which were a little implausible. If that is improved, the sequel will be even better! ;-)

560. MJ - March 30, 2011

@558. Nice job dodging the Babylon 5 questions….I can’t say I’m surprised.

561. dmduncan - March 30, 2011

I mean, can you imagine somebody complaining to Martin Scorcese that he wasn’t clear enough on the very ending of Shutter Island??? Can you imagine somebody actually expecting that to be spelled out in words that every viewer finds unambiguous what happened at the very end there? It’s enough that alternate reality is commonly accepted to mean parallel universe, and with the rest of the clues the MWI answer is triangulated. I don’t want any “See Jane run” in my Star Treks any more. It’s not frakkin phonics, it’s not a scholastic exercise.

Ironically Bob, you find yourself at the intersection of two opposing complaints: You either didn’t expect viewers to think enough, or you expected them think too much!

562. keachick - March 30, 2011

A question to Bob Orci – please.

A part of the movie has always puzzled me and that is the time delay between when Nero and the Narada is pulled through the singularity into the alternate universe and the time it takes for Spock to come through. Spock did say that Nero went through first and he and the Jellyfish followed. Why did it take Spock 25 years longer to come through the same black hole, although to Spock, it only felt like a few seconds? Perhaps something to do with time dilation… Bob?

To other posters: I realise that there had to be some delay, like 25 years, in order for the baby Jim Kirk to grow up and save the day ..:)

563. MJ - March 30, 2011

@559. “I was wondering, why Vulcan and Earth weren’t better defended?”

I agree with you regarding Earth. However, remember in the movie that several Federation starships were destroyed already when they arrived at Vulcan, so the Federation was making a stand there. Also recall that Pike gave up Earth’s planetary defense grid codes, so the lack of fixed defenses at Earth were covered in the story.

564. MJ - March 30, 2011

@562. Has to do with space-time around black holes — yes, time dilation is the short answer.

565. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

#554. keachick
“To StarFuryG7: No, the problem is with you trying to insult our intelligence with your rhetoric and unreasoned assertions.”

They’ve been very “reasoned,” and it is exactly that which you can’t stand.

“If I am correct, most of us did not NEED Bob Orci, nor necessarily had to read the Countdown comic to get the gist of the Many Worlds Interpretation that Orci chose to use to tell this story.”

I wasn’t the one who brought up the “Countdown” Comic book series here.

“It is just nice that Bob Orci confirms what many of us have concluded already.”

You didn’t “conclude it”. You were told it, but not in the movie. There was nothing in the film to suggest or even support it, except for one line that is easily interpreted more than one way.

“This is NOT an issue because it is not relevant. It is neither here nor there what affects Nero may have had on the prime universe, because this Trek does not take place in that universe. There are now TWO (2) universes!!!”

The film only barely hints at that possibility rather than planting a flag on it, so to speak. And I would be fine if it didn’t take a clear-cut position on it except for the fact that it walked the line too close to the wrong side of the fence in my estimation, which is the problem.

“So, are you saying that the PEOPLE working on experiments at the Hadron Collider in Switzerland right now, possibly as we speak, are not credible scientists?”

No, that’s not what I’ve said –it’s not the scientists who are paranoid about the Hadron Collider creating a black hole that will consume the Earth.

“The fact is that this whole MWI, Grandfather Paradox and other theories are just that – theories about how time, space etc may operate, could operate, does operate already perhaps. Bob Orci took the most favoured theory at the moment, one many credible scientists think as likely as any other notion to actually work and ran with it.”

That would be fine IF the film actually did bear it out, but it doesn’t. Not really, and everything Bob has said about MWI in relation to the film could just have easily been included in the film, so why wasn’t it?

” ‘Good God, man’ – NOBODY knows for sure about any of this. So why are you calling out Bob (and the Robot Team, for the matter) for writing an interesting science fiction story, with a possible/probable scenario?”

You misunderstand apparently. The man is in the process of finishing up the script for the sequel. Is it really too much to ask or expect a mere modicum of additional clarity? What’s the harm? If he can make all these claims about what supposedly occurred in the first film, why not make it clear in the script for that film? And failing that, which I allege and hold to because it’s what I believe based on all that I saw, why not include a line or two in the follow-up film that affirms all he has alleged over the last couple of years in interviews and on sites like this? Is it really TOO MUCH to ask, and if so, WHY? What’s the big darn deal for cryin’ out loud? In my opinion the movie took too much for granted all that was established in prior Trek stories: the television series and the films that followed, you name it. It runs roughshod over the work of other good writers by appearing to take them for granted. Why is that so hard for you and others here to understand?

566. Phil - March 30, 2011

I liked engineering. I liked engineering, and I’ve noticed that several others did, too.

567. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

561. MJ
“@558. Nice job dodging the Babylon 5 questions….I can’t say I’m surprised.”

What the hell are you even talking about?

568. MJ - March 30, 2011

@567. Oh great, now you are cursing at me. Please see my post 555.

Hey, a friend just unexpectedly popped by my house out of the blue and said he agrees with everything you have been saying here and that this has all been bothering him as well.

569. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

had just made it a point of deliberately trying to insult my intelligence.
549. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire – March 30, 2011
Bob. What is in a Fraction. Lol. The main thing is you told a wonderful and exciting story. The only real gripe I have about Trek 09 and I know I have said this many times. Engeneering. It has to become a real 23rd Century Engeneering room and not a Beer Brewery.

How dare you think that! Why, I’m sure most people here thought Engineering was absolutely picture-perfect and fit the gritty new tone that Bob and his colleagues had planned all along, just ask them. How dare you take issue with blatant perfect.

(And yes, just in case there is any doubt at all, I’m being totally facetious.)

570. Phil - March 30, 2011

..and in other news, Wonder Woman dosen’t have shiney pants and high heels anymore….

571. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

569. MJ
“Hey, a friend just unexpectedly popped by my house out of the blue and said he agrees with everything you have been saying here and that this has all been bothering him as well.”

And you have shown yourself to be worthy of my taking the time to do that based on …what exactly –your sheer sparkling and pleasantly bubbly personality?

572. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

569. MJ
“Hey, a friend just unexpectedly popped by my house out of the blue and said he agrees with everything you have been saying here and that this has all been bothering him as well.”

Isn’t it terrible when reality gives you a good, swift kick in the head like that?

573. MJ - March 30, 2011

@571. Dodged the Babylon 5 questions again…OK, I get that.

574. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

567. Phil – March 30, 2011
“I liked engineering. I liked engineering, and I’ve noticed that several others did, too.”

What did I tell ya Commodore Mike?

It really wasn’t hard to call here obviously.

575. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

#571. Phil
“..and in other news, Wonder Woman dosen’t have shiney pants and high heels anymore….”

But the girl that will be playing her now is damn Hot.

576. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

#481. Anthony Pascale
“As for the whole time travel erasure thing, while I admit it could have been clearer in the 2009 film, there is not a single ‘correct’ view of time travel fiction on this, nor is there consistency within Star Trek itself. Star Trek has done both the multiple timeline/universe thing (Parallels, Mirror Universe), and the overwriting timeline thing (Yesterday’s Enterprise, Star Trek: First Contact). It has also not been consistent on people’s perception of changes in timelines. But from the beginning the team have said it was always their view that this film was a new timeline that left the Prime timeline intact, and so that is what it is. They also made this clear in COUNTDOWN. Since it can be either, then the guys who wrote it are the ultimate deciders here. I dont understand why that isn’t enough for ppl.”

Very simple: why couldn’t that have simply been made clear in the film itself, rather than outside of it?

“And in a practical sense – it is official policy as well. The extended universe of Star Trek books, comics and games will continue to see the Prime Timeline as existing post Nero/Black Hole. In fact, Star Trek Online is set in the 25th century and specifically deals with the fallout of the destruction of Romulus. They even have a page about this:
http://www.startrekonline.com/timeline-alternate

All well and good, but not canon obviously.

577. Anthony Pascale - March 30, 2011

One of my pet peeves is when people get worked up over what is essentially ‘fanon’

While STO is not strictly canon, the parallel timelines set up by ST09 are canon by the fact that STO (and COUNTDOWN and NEEDS OF THE MANY book) have already referenced post-Nero/black hole events in the Prime universe. While these extended universe stories may not be canon, the fact that they are telling post Nero stories verifies that the Prime universe exists post Nero.

That may sound confusing but it is actually quite simple: The rules of the Star Trek Extended Universe are that they cannot conflict with canon. If it were canon that the universe had been rewritten, then any stories set in the post-Nero prime universe would violate canon.

Yes, as i have noted, it is possible to view the film through the prism of Back to the Future time travel rules and believe that the new timeline took out the Prime Timeline. It is also possible to view it using the TNG “Parallels” view. But if you want a ruling, then the bottom line is that CBS and Paramount determine what is and is not canon, and in this case they have determined that the MWI is the canon view. And that is simply that. If you hold on to your own view in light of all that, then that is “fanon”.

And if it actually upsets you, i suggest chill pill as it really doesnt actually matter at all. it isnt like Paramount and CBS are going to come to your house and take away your DVDs. That whole universe exists and will forever and nothing can change that.

578. Jack - March 30, 2011

548. Dude, your posts get pretty convoluted and tough to follow…passion can do that, I guess. So it wasn’t clear enough for you. Okay. Fair enough. So you’re pissed off. Okay.

But, heck, Orci defended his movie, point by point. So you got his attention. Heck, a lot of us keep asking the same questions (rhymes with dupernova — and the countdown explanation [okay, it was a really weird supernova] helped a little). I’ve gotta stop.

Like a lot of folks here, I like a little mystery and room for speculation… as long as the story works.

Why would the characters in the next one start talking about the other universe where Spock came from (where most of their counterparts are dead) and theorize whether it kept going? I don’t know. Questions of fate and choices and identity? Maybe they would. Especially if, lets say shapeshifters from that universe started crossing over.

579. Spockanella - March 30, 2011

la la la la la can’t hear you….I think it’s fascinating and kind of wonderful that people have so much passion about this, but for me, I’m simply going to enjoy whatever comes because it is, after all, FICTION. Which to my mind means that inconsistencies are ok. I can’t keep up with star dates and physics and nacelles and all that stuff. Just give me a good story with characters I can care about doing believable things within their own “reality”, and I’m good.

580. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

#577. Anthony Pascale
“One of my pet peeves is when people get worked up over what is essentially ‘fanon’ ”

With all due respect here, Anthony, Bob has stated that the film can be viewed and interpreted two different ways, and trying to use unsanctioned non-canon material as proof of canonicity is just a wee-bit disingenuous.

I don’t view it as “fanon” at all. I’m going by what the film goes out of its way to convey.

Which brings us back to why Bob can be clear about the MWI intent outside of the film, but not in it.

581. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

#578. Jack
“Dude, your posts get pretty convoluted and tough to follow…”

Nonsense –I’ve been extremely concise and consistent throughout with respect to the position I’ve laid out.

582. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

#579. Spockanella
“la la la la la can’t hear you….”

Ya know, this one is really too easy, so I’m going to just spare you.

Have a nice evening.

583. dmduncan - March 30, 2011

It’s been settled except to those who do not understand and refuse to make an effort to do so, which no one can force another person to make. There is no alternative explanation to what Spock means when he cites universe ending paradoxes. None. And none has been provided.

Starfury did try, but he immediately argues off the point, ignoring the real issue:

“There were no ‘universe-ending paradoxes’ to really worry about once the timeline had already been obliterated by Nero and Spock Prime made clear through his actions that he was willing to let all that stand. The original timeline was already wiped out, over and done with–period.”

The question of whether the timeline was or was not wiped out is irrelevant to the issue of paradoxes, and cannot therefore dissipate them. Simply put, an overwritten timeline has nothing to say about the matter of paradoxes at all, and is actually evidence that Starfury misunderstands what the paradox is.

The paradox is rooted in being able to alter events in such a way in the past of your own timeline such that you were never born. But if you were never born, how could you travel to the past to alter events in such a way that you were never born? THAT is the paradox, and the paradox is a present potentiality in ANY situation where that could happen, one of which scenarios is meeting your actual younger self in the actual past of the same universe you are from, WHETHER YOU TRY TO ALTER EVENTS BY HARMING YOUR YOUNGER SELF OR NOT. In other words, if you CAN meet your true younger self, you CAN kill him. Potential paradox. The ACTUAL paradox would be you actually killing your younger self, the thing that MWI was specifically enlisted to avoid.

But wait, there’s more. All this talk of what paradoxes might have transpired are irrelevant anyway.

Remember, Spock was “lying” when he influenced Kirk to think the paradoxical scenario was true. And of course, we know that if there is no paradoxical potential, then it is because they are NOT from the same universe, which confirms the meaning of “alternate reality” as well.

Because Spock was implying or lying, he wasn’t actually concerned about universe ending paradoxes. There were and would be none. No, that was just a ploy to get Kirk to do what he wanted. So it does not really matter in the context of the films reality if Spock Prime could have or would have killed his younger self, because that was never a paradoxical possibility. It’s just what he wanted Kirk to THINK, i.e., that Spock Prime’s presence known to younger Spock COULD create paradoxes too terrible to risk.

Spock didn’t actually CITE any specific paradoxes or how they would arise, he just let Kirk manufacture them in his head by implication, which demonstrates there was no paradoxical potential scenario at all that Spock was worried about. But he would have something to worry about if they WERE from the same universe, i.e., that such a paradox MIGHT occur if they met.

Which wasn’t the case.

So nothing more needs to be added. Alternate universe is the direct implication of what Spock Prime says to young Spock for which no alternative explanation exists.

Now, is it a problem that it was implied rather than spelled out? It shouldn’t be, not even for Starfury.

For example, when MJ was ribbing him thus (467):

“How fortunate that an unnamed friend just happened to drop by your place night night and without solicitation, validate your argument here so that you can relay his/her backing today or your position, which no one else seems to agree with?
This reminds me of my daughter, who when she was little, had a secret friend, which none of us could ever see.
:-)”

Starfury replied (477):

“So now you’re implying that I’m a sockpuppet too, eh?”

So, we see that Starfury is certainly able to perceive implications, since “sockpuppet” — like “MWI” and “grandfather paradox” in ST.09 — is not a word MJ used.

He just refuses to perceive implications while watching Star Trek.

584. dmduncan - March 30, 2011

And there ain’t much Bob can do about that. :-)

585. keachick - March 30, 2011

#565 – “You didn’t “conclude it”. You were told it, but not in the movie. There was nothing in the film to suggest or even support it, except for one line that is easily interpreted more than one way.”

Now you are being presumptuous. Just what makes you think you know what I have been told or not told? I saw the movie twice at the cinema – 8 May and 15 May 2009 and many times since on the DVD when it was released for sale in November 2009. I have not read the Countdown comic book or the other Alan Dean Foster book. I have been posting to two message boards about this movie (this and IMDb Star Trek 2009 board) which have discussed many and varied topics relating to this movie. I think it is safe to assert that I have been told many things and I also tell many things as well and that I am as capable to coming to my own conclusions as anybody else.

You are also being stupid and presumptuous when it comes to Bob Orci and I quote:
“The man is in the process of finishing up the script for the sequel. Is it really too much to ask or expect a mere modicum of additional clarity? What’s the harm? If he can make all these claims about what supposedly occurred in the first film, why not make it clear in the script for that film? And failing that, which I allege and hold to because it’s what I believe based on all that I saw, why not include a line or two in the follow-up film that affirms all he has alleged over the last couple of years in interviews and on sites like this?”

First of all, NOBODY knows what is in the sequel, so there is no way of knowing what the writers have chosen to include or not include of anything. Who are you to presume as you have and call Bob out on something that you do not know anything about?

“They’ve been very “reasoned,” and it is exactly that which you can’t stand.”
No, your arguments have not always been well reasoned, but they have been rude, facetious and presumptuous at times. Also, would you please not presume to know what I can stand or can’t stand.

586. MJ - March 30, 2011

@582 “He just refuses to perceive implications while watching Star Trek.”

DM, this one statement sums it all up for me. Well put!

You’ll notice as well that I asked him to apply the same sort of scientific criticism to his beloved Babylon 5 (I like B5 too, BTW), he went immediately to the “your not worthy of my time” card as a way of weaseling out of having to respond to my questions…because he knows he can’t answer them intelligibly, and in turn, that would show him guilty of a double-standard.

Conversing with this guy is like talking to an idiot savant whose savant skills are greatly diminished.

587. MJ - March 30, 2011

@584 “No, your arguments have not always been well reasoned, but they have been rude, facetious and presumptuous at times. Also, would you please not presume to know what I can stand or can’t stand.”

Amen, Keachick. Amen.

588. dmduncan - March 30, 2011

And furthermore, that Spock Prime references paradoxes should be enough to indicate that City on the Edge of Forever rules are most definitely not in effect.

If you went back in time and erased the future you came from, then where did you come from? Yet ANOTHER variation of the Grandfather Paradox, which City did not recognize, and which Spock Prime does, further showing that the two are using different assumptions.

Now if you want to say that the Guardian was protecting the landing party from instantly disappearing too, well, THAT wasn’t in the episode and it wasn’t even implied by anything said in the episode (and it’s not even in Harlan’s original script, which I’ve read) — nor would it be a logical explanation if it were in the episode — so there’s even less to go on to make such a claim for that episode than there is for ST.09 to infer MWI rules, so how is it reasonable to arbitrarily invent your own material to explain City logic but it is NOT reasonable to follow the implications cited in ST.09 to where those lead???

Answer: It’s not. It’s arbitrary and inconsistent.

City logic is not transferable to ST.09. The latter recognizes the paradox avoiding logic of MWI, and the former does not.

589. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

#583. dmduncan
“Starfury replied (477):”

So you’ve finally resorted to mentioning me by name repeatedly in the same post in a desperate attempt to get my attention.

Now that is truly funny, not to mention so utterly pathetic.

590. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 30, 2011

Ok. Somehow I got involved in this conversation. I am also a big fan of B5. I have all of the Seasons on Dvd and all of the movies as well. I also own all ten seasons of Sg1 and all 5 of Atlantis and Bsg and Buck Rogers. I am a Scify fan in general and all of these shows have time travel in them. Some better done then the rest. Sg1 had some great time travel and in one Ep they went into the Multi Universe. In this Ep there were several Sg1 teams in our Universe. Some had Different uniforms and some had different members. Some came from an Earth where the Gould invaded and were taking over. This science was the same that Trek 09 used. Also. On Tng Worf was witnesing different reality as well. In fact there was at one point 250,000 Enterprise Ds. One of the Enterprise Ds tried to stop Worf from setting things right. On screen was Riker who looked pretty bad. In his universe the Borg had won and the Federation was all but wiped out. So in Bob Orci using the Multi Universe is actually pretty solid as Tng has used it and Sg1 has used it and Atlantis also used it.

591. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

#586. MJ – March 30, 2011
“You’ll notice as well that I asked him to apply the same sort of scientific criticism to his beloved Babylon 5 (I like B5 too, BTW), he went immediately to the “your not worthy of my time” card as a way of weaseling out of having to respond to my questions…”

Excuse me, but what exactly have you done other than engage in a continuous onslaught of nasty personal insults in my direction that would warrant my wanting to give you the time of day where “Babylon 5″ is concerned?

Aside from which, what does it even have to do with THIS conversation?

You don’t know the slightest thing about what I think about “Babylon 5″, and you’ve given me no reason to want to entertain your post regarding it in the slightest. No, I didn’t read your message, I scrolled passed it and missed it, and if you hadn’t conducted yourself in the manner that you have over the last couple of days I would have been happy to go back and read it. As things stand however, you have without question shown yourself to be utterly undeserving of such a courtesy.

“Conversing with this guy is like talking to an idiot savant whose savant skills are greatly diminished.”

Screw you, you mindless ugly drone.

592. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

590. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire
“Ok. Somehow I got involved in this conversation. I am also a big fan of B5. I have all of the Seasons on Dvd and all of the movies as well.”

You I would be more than happy to discuss the show with, but not with that jerk.

593. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - March 30, 2011

The Multi Universe is a solid premise. Example. Say you decided to wake up a 8am and go to work by 830am. But. You decided not to go to work till 9am. In the Multi Universe you did go to work at 830am but in another you went at 9am. Another Universe you simply stayed home. How you Interacted with those other people at work were also affected. That is the basic premise of the Multi Universe Theory. Now. Go back in time and stop your self from going to work at 830am because if you did got to work at that time you would be in a Wreck that would hurt you. But you stoped your self from doing that. So. No Accedent. in the Multi Universe the orignal timeline is still going forward where you were in the car wreck and now you have created a new time line in a different universe where you did not get into a wreck.

594. MJ - March 30, 2011

Again, he avoids the Babylon 5 questions…this time through the guise of a petty childish tirade. I’m not buying it. He is far to clever and egotistic to let my little statements get to him. He will not answer these questions becuase he knows it will break down his argument, at least what’s still left of it giving ever single person here has already cut it to shreds. At this point, I actually pity the guy.

Enough said, I am moving on from this sad chapter in Trekmovie.com posting.

595. StarFuryG7 - March 30, 2011

593. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire
“The Multi Universe is a solid premise.”

Never said it wasn’t, especially if that’s the aim, and that aim had been made clear. In this particular instance, however, it wasn’t, and that’s the problem. You don’t have to guess about what was going on in TOS’s “Mirror, Mirror”, or TNG’s “Parallels”. In the case of ST09, however, no such declaration was actually made or clearly established.

596. keachick - March 30, 2011

#594 – “better not see anyone taking me to task for finally firing back, you witch.”

Or what? LOL

597. Khan was Framed! - March 30, 2011

It’s a pretty simple answer to Bob’s question up top: 3 years.

Now that the prequel is done, the next movie should pick up at the beginning of what would be “season 4″, assuming that all of the TOS episodes have passed in one form or another.

My feeling was this is where they should have started anyway, there was no need for a reboot or alternate timeline. The first movie should have just picked up with a Captain’s log entry mentioning the previous 3 years, seemlessly continuing the story.

Oh & the multiverse isn’t a solid premise, its a weak & thinly veiled writing gimmick that excuses them for ignoring cannon.

Oh & on another note Paul Giamatti should play Harry Mudd; he is pitch perfect for it.

598. MJ - March 30, 2011

@597. There are no original series episodes yet. At the end of ST09 they are 4 years ahead of the original time-line. In addition, now they will never be at the right place and time for those original episodes to occur in any case. So it is a new playing field for this version of the Enterprise.
I’ll repeat here my logic from an earlier post of mine to explain this better:

Because of the alternate timeline:

(1) The Alternate-U Enterprise mission with Kirk and crew is starting 4 years ahead of time than in the original universe, so that throws off the timing of WHEN the original episodes could potentially occur: and

(2) The Alternate-U Enterprise can be expected to be patrolling different areas of space then the Prime Enterprise did, since the mission is starting years ahead of schedule and also being affected by the events of the movie, particularly the destruction of Vulcan, and the destruction of a number of other starships. So this throws off the location of WHERE the Alternate-U Enterprise would need to be to support the stories in the original episodes.

So, in summary, for at least a large majority of TOS episodes, the Alternate-U Enterprise will neither be available WHEN or WHERE the TOS episodes occurs.

As I mentioned earlier, because of this, you might find some other starships showing up (by coincidence based on Starfleet’s programming of Starship missions) at the right place and near enough on time that they could experience some of the stories from TOS episodes…this might support some cool Star Trek novels that could be written if the publisher would support this.

599. Maj - March 30, 2011

@597

“the multiverse isn’t a solid premise, its a weak & thinly veiled writing gimmick that excuses them for ignoring cannon.”

That would be true in an ideal reality “had” past Trek writers adhered to canon without fault, but alas, they had “not”. At least, not entirely with success. Star Trek: Enterprise is one example.

Part of the problem is also that establishing a new Universe would establish a base for “new canon”. Which is obviously the difference between outdated-and-only-appealing-to-fans kind of material that had resulted in Nemesis’ lackluster box office performance.

A new Universe is any good writers’ solution. If anything, even Asimov would tell you that boxing in one Universe is the “easier” solution in most case, because writers wouldn’t have to create a new base which is arguably “more difficult”.

In my view, there were so many time-travel plots from TOS till Voyager and afterwards, that there is no way that we have been watching one supposedly “prime” Universe all along whilst being introduced to a new Universe just-all-of-a-sudden in 2009.

No way my friend. The multiverse theory is the only “canon” that really made sense all along!

600. MJ - March 30, 2011

@599 “In my view, there were so many time-travel plots from TOS till Voyager and afterwards, that there is no way that we have been watching one supposedly “prime” Universe all along whilst being introduced to a new Universe just-all-of-a-sudden in 2009.”

You know, I never thought of this in these terms before. Cool idea!

601. Charla - March 30, 2011

Wow I have missed this place!!

BSS- I too am a nurse and agree that the duties a nurse performs are not to be taken lightly due to higher risk of injury and death for patients without proper or sufficient nursing care. (recent studies even prove this)

Thanks to everyone voicing their support! Congrats Phil to your wife on pursuing her NP- I am doing the same and look forward to obtaining it soon.

# 323- Harry, Harry, Harry- you crack me up!!

# 332 Gotta give a shout out to Chris D. Good to see you!

# 422 Chris comes here too and talks to others too- (just fyi)

# 469 Bob, Yes you did hit a 3-pt half court and I loved it!!
and again @ # 490- whew!! That was t-totally awesome- homerun IMO-

# 547 StarFuryG7 Wow seriously.

# 554 keachick- “Good God, man” – NOBODY knows for sure about any of this. So why are you calling out Bob (and the Robot Team, for the matter) for writing an interesting science fiction story, with a possible/probable scenario?” Well put!
The only thing I would add to your overall comments is that most of the theorys today’s scientists are working with are just that…theorys. They are being “suprised” more and more finding out that things just don’t work or behave like they once believed.

# 579 Spockanella- LOL I’m beside you going la..la..la..”Just give me a good story with characters I can care about doing believable things within their own “reality”, and I’m good.” They did it once, and will do it again. :D

My 2 cents on the engineering- who would have known it was a brewery if a) someone didn’t work in one or b) it wasn’t announced on the special features with the blue rays?? Worked for me- being a non brewery specialist/physicist and all.

Take care all and play nice-

602. Phil - March 30, 2011

599. Maj – March 30, 2011

Agreed on the time travel plots. VOY episode when 29th century time cop shows up to “fix” the timeline by blowing up Janeway and crew begs the question, are unexplained explosions throughout history time cops “fixing” things?

To dovetail on new universe storytelling and canon, we only have 79 episodes of the TOS, covering three years. That’s two years of untold storytelling, folks. Presume that what we know has happened, in some degree or another, and look at the current incarnation as more backstory.

603. Red Dead Ryan - March 30, 2011

StarFury needs to find a new hobby. His crack habit is taking it’s toll.

604. Damian - March 31, 2011

Sorry Phil, I think while a 100% did not necessarily hate engineering, it does seem about 99.9% did. I was one of them.

In general I loved the movie. However, set design was a pet peeve of mine. I know they used a brewery, but every time I saw engineering I couldn’t help but think I was going to see Freddy Krueger come around one of the pipes. I was not a big fan of the windows on the bridge either.

Re; the whole multiverse thing–I just take Orci at his word. Maybe it was not laid out in plain English in the movie, but he said it is an alternate universe, and it does seem to fit the facts that were shown in the movie. I am not losing sleep over it. I always liked Dr Otto Hasslein’s description of the whole idea in “Escape from the Planet of the Apes” and later Virgil in “Battle for the Planet of the Apes” about the future holding an infinite number of lanes into the future, all possible futures. Captain Picard alluded to it in “A Matter of Time”, and it was most clear in “Parallels.”

Oh wait, I think Paramount is at my door to take all my Star Trek DVD’s :)

605. Damian - March 31, 2011

536–I was just never all that bothered by technobabble in the TV series, though again for movies I would agree.

One of my favorite techno moments was in “The Game” when Wesley was distracted by Lefler (Who wouldn’t be distracted by Ashley Judd) and she tells him with a bit of mishief that his “neutrinos are drifting.” Yeah, mine were drifting too.

606. I, Mugsy - March 31, 2011

I think all this talk about the sequal proves – in a roundabout way – that Trek is better suited the small(er) screen. 3 years between adventures is just too much time passed, especially with a ‘new’ crew. We can pretend the next adventure only took place fairly recently after the first movie, but it’ll get to the point where the actors aging needs to be taken into account. Granted not too much of a problem at the moment ;)

The original series of films worked because they had 3 seasons of back story/character & actor bonding which had already taken place. It was a well oiled machine! This new series of films is starting from scratch, and the gap between stories is really going to play havoc with the 5-year mission (which hasn’t started yet, and it’s now already 2 years since the first movie came out!). How many films will be able to address a 5-year mission, if there’s a gap of 3 years between each one, plus you have to factor in actors aging and availability…

The original series had stories which the writers were excited to tell. I have to say the new sequal appears to be more along the lines of, we have to come up with a story because we need a sequal. Perhaps 3 years is too much time to come up with a decent story? Perhaps the ultra-tight timelines dictated by a TV series work to sci-fi’s advantage. It cuts out the waffle and means you have to cut to the chase with each story. You don’t get time to over-think things or get bogged down with 3 years of audience expectations on your shoulders! With films you get too caught up in trying to please EVERyone, then the spirit of something like Trek is watered down to get as many butts into cinema’s as possible.

No offence to Bob, but I’d prefer to see a less wham-bam-thank-you-ma’am pseudo Star Wars-esque Trek and bring it back to it’s real reason for existing – telling compelling stories which often reflect on morality tales about today’s world. More though provoking stuff and a few less fisticuffs and explosions…

607. dmduncan - March 31, 2011

598. keachick – March 30, 2011

Hehehe. Really.

608. MJ - March 31, 2011

@608 “The original series had stories which the writers were excited to tell. I have to say the new sequal appears to be more along the lines of, we have to come up with a story because we need a sequal. Perhaps 3 years is too much time to come up with a decent story? Perhaps the ultra-tight timelines dictated by a TV series work to sci-fi’s advantage. It cuts out the waffle and means you have to cut to the chase with each story. You don’t get time to over-think things or get bogged down with 3 years of audience expectations on your shoulders! With films you get too caught up in trying to please EVERyone, then the spirit of something like Trek is watered down to get as many butts into cinema’s as possible”

Then how do you explain Enterprise and Voyager? On those two shows, they certainly could have used more time to develop better scripts.

I don’t think that having too much time is the issue. I think the issue is that the writing team has too many other projects going on, and has simply not had the team, until recently, to really focus on the Trek script.

609. MJ - March 31, 2011

meant to say “and has simply not had the TIME, until recently, to really focus on the Trek script.”

610. If you were any other man - March 31, 2011

Can we just bring back TNG? O please o please?

611. MOK - March 31, 2011

Every one is all forgetting that the 2009 movie spanned years of time.
Who’s to say that it cannot emcompass more years of time passing, at the same time reconnecting to where it left off.
The bottom line is the franchise is in good hands.
Have faith.

612. Anthony Pascale - March 31, 2011

Again, yes the style of time travel physics and universe is not made very clear in the film, but that is for a very simple reason: it doesn’t matter.

In cases like Back to the Future, Star Trek: First Contact, and TNG’s Parallels, the time travel physics were key plot points. In BTTF and FC it was the mission of the heroes to “fix” the universe and reset it back to the original timeline. In “Parallels” it was mission of the heroes to get Worf back to his correct timeline.

In Star Trek 2009, there was no overt mission for Spock Prime or our heroes to return to or reset the original timeline. They simply acknowledged that the events created a new timeline and that was where they were, although Spock Prime did try to mitigate the changes being made by Nero to ensure Kirk and Spock worked together on the Enterprise. However, what happened to the original Prime timeline was irrelevant for the plot of the film, and therefore there wasn’t any explicit exposition time devoted to this issue.

So again the issue only really has an impact in the extended universe, and in that case the issue is resolved so it really is time to move on for anyone worked up over this

and that is all i can say on it, there is reasonable debate and then there is obsession with fanon and getting worked up over things that dont really matter.

613. Keachick - March 31, 2011

I agree that sometimes you can over-think an idea, a storyline. I’m not sure if this is what is not happening here with the script/story. I also think that it is safe to say that JJ Abrams has been well aware of what the story (stories?) is about, probably for some time now. Now it comes down to making a choice, if there is one to be made, and working out the nuts and bolts of execution of chosen storyline. This could account for the question that Bob Orci has asked re how much elapsed time?

Once the decision is reached, hopefully within the next few hours even (one can hope), then the requirements as regards casting and other pre-production work will kick into high gear and quite likely a lot of “ground gets covered” in a short space of time.

#608 – “I have to say the new sequel appears to be more along the lines of, we have to come up with a story because we need a sequel.”

Possibly. However, I suspect that the writers have been playing with, writing several different scenarios. One of the problems, I think, US, the fandom. Still, after almost two years since the release, some people have not understood the MWI notion presented. They have mistaken the motivations of key characters (Lt Uhura) and some of criticisms made against the director and writers have been vitriolic, to say the least. If Paramount/Bad Robot team decide to run with a particular storyline which present ideas, technology and the characters in a certain way, how much unprecedented and mindless controversy mightsa they create among general movie goers and trekkies in particular? For example, will people in general be spitting sputum or otherwise, for lord knows how long, over a two minute scene where a gay/lesbian couple are seen showing affection…? For all the free speech etc, there does not appear to be much in the way of free thinking, acceptance and tolerance, even on this site sometimes. However, there does seem to be a good deal of craziness around here, there, everywhere.

As an old Chinese curse goes: “May you be born in interesting times.” I bet the L/O/K and JJ team know exactly what means. I suspect they feel they are living it. Aren’t they?

Who says there has to be a five year mission? I always thought that was a bit of strange, somewhat arbitrary concept anyway.

614. MJ - March 31, 2011

Yea, the five year mission thing should be conveniently “forgotten” for the new movies. Let is go the way of the plywood overhangs on the Enterprise passageways that we all “pretended we didn’t see” in some episodes.

615. Anthony Pascale - March 31, 2011

I have had to delete some namecalling/foul language. Also starfury banned for week for excessive flaming

616. Jack - March 31, 2011

And I’m that guy who loved (loved!) the 5 year mission idea — they’re sent out there, often on their own (except not really in practice, damn those snarky administrators) for 5 years to explore! It’s instrumental to Star Trek, I think. And movies kind of suffered later because it was, well, what exactly have they been doing in between the adventures we saw. Back to Earth apparently, and that’s wrong. What was their purpose? I don’t think a continuing mission has quite the same ring, because heck, they could come home next Tuesday.

It always seemed very much like Master and Commander (which was long after, I know) and Horatio Hornblower. They’re prepared and trained like crazy for it, being out there left to their own devices, even though they do hit starbases and colonies and other starships. There was no, “we miss Earth!” (sorry, Voyager) and there was no calling for reinforcements, or heading back to earth for a confab every few weeks, or live instructions from starfleet (the answer always came a conveniently long time after they decided to do the opposite). Basically, that whole frontier thing, which is what a nasa mission somewhere far away would be like.

The Enterprise-D, however, sometimes felt like it was patrolling the local shopping mall (Starfleet: Enterprise, we have a report of Ferengi loitering outside of Pottery Barn, please advise.) It was never intentionally too far from home.

617. Phil - March 31, 2011

616.
Note to Starfury – it’s movies/television. Nothing to have a stroke over. Peace out…

614. Excellent suggestion…and let it end there.. :-)

618. MJ - March 31, 2011

@616. OK Jack, you’ve sold me on bringing back the 5 Year Mission — I really liked the Master and Commander comparison (and why can’t we get a sequel to the superb Russel Crowe movie?). However, the five year mission thing can get complex when doing a series of movies…less complex when doing a tv series. Maybe just say 10-Year mission — that would be a bit less stressful for those of us like me who take this overly seriously.

@615. Good call Anthony…keep up the good work and let us know when we are out of line!

619. Keachick - March 31, 2011

#618 Yes, a 10 year mission does make more sense.

In TOS, there were also star bases (several, from memory) where the ship could put in for repairs, pick up supplies and crew get some R&R.

620. Keachick - March 31, 2011

Sorry, Jack, just repeated what you already mentioned. My bad.

621. Fubamushu - March 31, 2011

This may repeat something previously said, but no matter which option is chosen for elapsed time, no events from the original series would happen in the intervening time.

Why?

We are now in an alternate universe/timeline and those events now will not, cannot happen. History, or in this case the future, has been rewritten.

Even if we presuppose the similar events happen in alternate universes, in this timeline Kirk ascended to the captaincy several years before he became captain in the original universe. Pine’s Kirk became captain a good five years (maybe more!) before Shatner’s Kirk did. So even if similar events happen, are they really going to happen five or more years earlier?

I don’t think so. if they did, that would be even more lame than this damn alternate universe we find ourselves in.

622. Spockanella - March 31, 2011

612: Well said.

623. MJ - March 31, 2011

@621

Agree completely Fubashumu. See my post 598 for some more info on my explanation for this.

624. MJ - March 31, 2011

@621. Don’t agree with you last paragraph though…I like this alternate universe, “its exciting!” :-)

625. Michael Hall - March 31, 2011

“Now if you want to say that the Guardian was protecting the landing party from instantly disappearing too, well, THAT wasn’t in the episode and it wasn’t even implied by anything said in the episode (and it’s not even in Harlan’s original script, which I’ve read). . .”

Actually, that issue definitely was addressed, however briefly, in Ellison’s original draft. After the renegade crewman jumps into the past the Guardians are thrown into a panic, as the time continuum they are there to protect is completely disrupted.

Kirk: “But how can that be. . . everything looks the same here?”

1st Guardian: “Yes, here at the center. But looking outwards, everything has changed. It is another universe in which we stand.”

(Which, now that I think of it, is a more direct reference, albeit an unintentional one, to MWI theory than anything I saw onscreen in Trek ’09.)

“Again, yes the style of time travel physics and universe is not made very clear in the film, but that is for a very simple reason: it doesn’t matter.”

But Mr. Pascale, it seems to me (unless I’ve misread their arguments) that Bob Orci and folks like dmduncan respond to critics like me, who think of Trek ’09 as a (mostly) lightweight summer popcorn flick, that it’s treatment of MWI theory, along with the subtext of destiny, is what gives the film its intellectual and dramatic weight. So perhaps your argument is really with them. :-)

626. MJ - March 31, 2011

#625. Yes, you’ve misread the arguments.

627. Damian - April 1, 2011

I agree with MJ that a set mission timeframe makes more sense in a TV series, where you have 20 to 25 episodes in a season to explore. For movies, it’s a little more difficult because you are only going to get to cover a fraction of time period because of the length between movies.

In TNG, the Enterprise was more advanced, being 78 years after Star Trek IV, so the time frame of their being in space without needing a refit could be broadened. In Enterprise, they were just beginning deep space exploration and they probably were still working out how long a ship can be in space before needing a refit.

628. dmduncan - April 1, 2011

625: Actually, that issue definitely was addressed, however briefly, in Ellison’s original draft. After the renegade crewman jumps into the past the Guardians are thrown into a panic, as the time continuum they are there to protect is completely disrupted.

Kirk: “But how can that be. . . everything looks the same here?”

1st Guardian: “Yes, here at the center. But looking outwards, everything has changed. It is another universe in which we stand.”

(Which, now that I think of it, is a more direct reference, albeit an unintentional one, to MWI theory than anything I saw onscreen in Trek ‘09.)

***

The Guardian says that but it merely verbalizes what we already see — the landing party is unaffected; and know — they can’t make contact with the Enterprise because everything has been l altered and it’s not up there anymore. So we already know that the landing party wasn’t affected because they are still there even though everything they know has vanished.

However, there is a certain logic to what you are saying, i.e., if it’s the Guardian’s job to be custodian of time he can’t be that if somebody can change things and make him disappear too, and if the landing party is within some protective bubble of time, it would at least be consistent given the premises that they would be protected also. But see, we STILL have to provide the logic for that even within City. It’s not explicitly stated, but it makes sense to draw that conclusion anyway. If the Guardians are at the “center” of something, then it makes sense that any changes made from there would propagate outward from the center without the center itself being affected. But I have to THINK about that. It is by no means obvious what the Guardian meant without an effort on my part to understand it that way.

On the second point, though, it’s totally different than MWI.

Universes aren’t erased in MWI, they merely split off from one another. One doesn’t stop being and another takes it place.

McCoy affecting the timeline in the past would not have changed the timeline that Kirk was in; if MWI was in effect, McCoy saving Edith Keeler would have branched off an entirely new universe much like Nero attacking the Kelvin did at the beginning of ST.09, leaving Kirk and the rest of the landing part still able to communicate with and beam up to an Enterprise that was still orbiting overhead.

629. dmduncan - April 1, 2011

Indeed, time travel wasn’t that complicated in the 1960′s. The Guardian gives you the ability to go back to THE past, which is still pretty much how people think about time travel, without the branching and splitting we were introduced to in ST.09. Things were simpler. Even though the theory has been around longer than Star Trek, it’s still not the talk around the water cooler.

Indeed, what other movies besides ST09 had the premise of MWI at the core of their plots? None are coming to mind, for me.

630. dmduncan - April 1, 2011

Even TOS’s other treatments of parallel universes: The Alternative Factor and Mirror, Mirror, are not MWI based.

631. Jack - April 1, 2011

629. er, source code was good, just saw it.

Well, does Mirror, Mirror count? Roddenberry mentioned parallel worlds, but on the show they were worlds in this universe that had developed similarly to ours, no? it’s funny, because when you asked how often MWI had been done in sci fi, my first thought (I’m a dick) was ‘man, that device has been around forever!’ But now I can’t think of any examples, other than decades of DC comics (and marvel too, I think). Fringe, obviously, but that also involves our friends here. Does that whole, what if/sliding doors genre count? In another, better, universe, I googled this before replying and had a way better answer.

But, yeah, I was referring more to the ‘it’s quantum mechanics, you dummies’ vibe I get here when I’m crabby — we have wikipedia, howstuffworks and high school physics out here too, writers!

632. dmduncan - April 1, 2011

631. Jack – April 1, 2011

In MWI/QM, for every possible iteration (y1, 2, 3, etc.) of x at moment t, there is a universe that branches off in time where x = y1 + y2 + y3, etc) at moment t.

Every instance of MWI is an instance of a parallel universe, but not every instance of a parallel universe is an instance of MWI.

The multiverse may contain parallel universes that function along MWI/QM rules and/or parallel universes that do not.

633. Phil - April 1, 2011

Floated over to Wiki and and looked up MWI. Boy, a lot of digital ink has been spilled here on a postulate. Ultimately, until a construct exists that will allow for either the observation or visitation of alternate realities, we are just going to have to entertain ourslves with stories. does it REALLY matter that if we jump into an alternate reality that for the story to be complete we have to jump back? That was the whole premise behind Qunatum Leap…I think.

634. dmduncan - April 1, 2011

633: “does it REALLY matter that if we jump into an alternate reality that for the story to be complete we have to jump back?”

Depends. If money grows on trees in the alternate reality but the women all look like Andy Dick in drag, yes.

635. Jack - April 1, 2011

634. Ha. Awesome. Man, what horrible chain of events would make that happen? ;).

636. Michael Hall - April 1, 2011

“The Guardian says that but it merely verbalizes what we already see — the landing party is unaffected; and know — they can’t make contact with the Enterprise because everything has been l altered and it’s not up there anymore. So we already know that the landing party wasn’t affected because they are still there even though everything they know has vanished.”

The point I was making was that Ellison’s original teleplay did address the issue that the landing party hadn’t disappeared (the big E herself doesn’t vanish but is transformed into the Condor, a “Mirror, Mirror”-esque pirate vessel), contrary to your claim that it didn’t. And no, the Guardian’s explanation is more poetic than reasonable; but then Harlan is merely a brilliant fantasist, rather than a MWI expert like Bob Orci.

“Universes aren’t erased in MWI, they merely split off from one another. One doesn’t stop being and another takes it place.”

Well, I was inferring in this case that the Guardian (Ellison’s version) might have been referring to an alternate universe, rather than a “replacement” universe. But you can certainly read it both ways.

“McCoy affecting the timeline in the past would not have changed the timeline that Kirk was in; if MWI was in effect, McCoy saving Edith Keeler would have branched off an entirely new universe much like Nero attacking the Kelvin did at the beginning of ST.09, leaving Kirk and the rest of the landing part still able to communicate with and beam up to an Enterprise that was still orbiting overhead.”

So you’re saying that in MWI theory only the time traveler (or travelers) actually wind up in the alternate universe? Makes sense in the context of the film; thank for clarifying that point for me.

637. Damian - April 1, 2011

Usually in Star Trek, the parallel universe thing involve a single starting point that at some point diverged into another movie. Certainly that was the case with Star Trek (2009). Some have speculated (I know it is not canon) that the mirror universe sprang from the prime universe at some point in the past.

If you ever get the chance, you should check out the Crucible:McCoy book. It chronicles McCoy’s life in the other time line where he saves Edith Keeler and has to live out his life in the 20th century. It was an excellent read and further supports the idea of multiple timelines. That other life in the novel actually starts affecting him on a subconcious level in the prime timeline.

638. Damian - April 1, 2011

637–my first sentence should be diverged into another timeline. To think I proofread before hitting Say It too:(

639. dmduncan - April 1, 2011

636: “So you’re saying that in MWI theory only the time traveler (or travelers) actually wind up in the alternate universe?”

Yes! That’s the MWI solution to the Grandfather Paradox.

And what if Nero had a great grandfather living on Vulcan when he destroyed it? That would have been a Great Grandfather Paradox right there if the rules were not MWI. As in Ray Bradbury’s A Sound of Thunder (from where the Butterfly Effect comes from), ANY change you make in the past, however slight, that leads to your nonexistence in the future IS the same type of paradox MWI was devised to escape.

640. dmduncan - April 1, 2011

Rather, MWI wasn’t “devised” to escape that paradox; it was simply pressed into service in the time travel case as a solution.

641. MJ - April 1, 2011

DM, this discussion reminded me of an article I read a couple of years back, which I have found again and pasted immediately below. If you could make a space-time device like this, then it would seem to get around the MWI and allow for travel between the relative present and future such that you could kill your own grandfather…I wonder how that would work out???

*********
A new concept for a time machine could possibly enable distant future generations to travel into the past, research now suggests.

Unlike past ideas for time machines, this new concept does not require exotic, theoretical forms of matter. Still, this new idea requires technology far more advanced than anything existing today, and major questions remain as to whether any time machine would ever prove stable enough to enable actual travel back in time.

Time machine researchers often investigate gravity, which essentially arises when matter bends space and time. Time travel research is based on bending space-time so far that time lines actually turn back on themselves to form a loop, technically known as a “closed time-like curve.”

“We know that bending does happen all the time, but we want the bending to be strong enough and to take a special form where the lines of time make closed loops,” said theoretical physicist Amos Ori at the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology in Haifa. “We are trying to find out if it is possible to manipulate space-time to develop in such a way.”

Many scientists are skeptical as to whether or not time travel is possible. For instance, time machines often are thought to need an exotic form of matter with so-called “negative energy density.” Such exotic matter has bizarre properties, including moving in the opposite direction of normal matter when pushed. Such matter could theoretically exist, but if it did, it might be present only in quantities too small for the construction of a time machine.

Ori’s latest research suggests time machines are possible without exotic matter, eliminating a barrier to time travel. His work begins with a donut-shaped hole enveloped within a sphere of normal matter.

“We’re talking about these closed loops of time, and the simplest kind of closed loops are circles, which is why we have this ring-shaped hole,” Ori explained.

Inside this donut-shaped vacuum, space-time could get bent upon itself using focused gravitational fields to form a closed time-like curve. To go back in time, a traveler would race around inside the donut, going further back into the past with each lap.

“The machine is space-time itself,” Ori said. “If we were to create an area with a warp like this in space that would enable time lines to close on themselves, it might enable future generations to return to visit our time.”

Ori emphasized one significant limitation of this time machine—”it can’t be used to travel to a time before the time machine was constructed.” His findings are detailed in the Aug. 3 issue of the journal Physical Review D.

A number of obstacles remain, however. The gravitational fields required to make such a closed time-like curve would have to be very strong, “on the order of what you might find close to a black hole,” Ori told LiveScience. “We don’t have any way of creating such strong gravitational fields today, and we certainly have no way of manipulating any such gravitational fields.”

Even if time machines were technically feasible, the gravitational fields involved need to be manipulated in very specific, accurate ways, and Ori said his calculations suggest any time machine could be very unstable, meaning “the tiniest deviations might keep one from working. We need to explore the problem of stability of time machines further.”

Theoretical physicist Ken Olum of Tufts University in Medford, Mass., who did not participate in this study, was skeptical concerning how this new model claimed to sidestep prior theoretical objections to time travel.

Still, Olum noted, “It’s important if it’s right—that there really is some kind of loophole. So this should be scrutinized very closely.” The point of such work, he added, was to “expand the bounds of what’s possible, what kind of things we can have and what kinds of things we cannot have.”

642. MJ - April 1, 2011

@640. So OK DM, if the Guardian was this type of device, and was built before earth’s prehistory started, then perhaps it does in fact circumven MWI and doesn’t allow paradoxes???

643. dmduncan - April 2, 2011

642. MJ – April 1, 2011

I’d read that article when it first came out.

1. IF this sort of time machine was possible in the way that Ori imagines time to work, then it would not avoid paradoxes.

2. It would not work the way Ori imagines because any “time” that Ori goes back to in this way would not have Ori in it since he is in the machine he built to go back in time with. It follows that:

A. He would not be able to meet or to kill himself because the only version of him that would be in that “past” would be the Ori that steps out of the time machine.

B. BUT, he would be able to kill his dad or his grandfather, and that would NOT be a paradox because, strictly speaking, he did not actually go back in time but rather reversed events to a point in time that was otherwise identical but for the fact that the point he reversed them to does not have a younger version of himself in it, so it’s different. It’s not really his past. It’s more like a cosmic trick he’s playing.

3. The only way that I see any logic in how the Guardian operates is episode specific or maybe TOS canon specific, as opposed to reality specific, i.e., in that if the Guardian planet exists at the center of a system of altering events in time without itself being altered. For example, let’s imagine you create a sphere of powerful lights all facing outward so that when it’s turned on, to anybody looking at it from any angle it looks like a ball of light, a miniature sun. Now imagine that you are on the inside of that sphere. You turn it on and you bathe everyone with light but you yourself remain in shadow. Now if you had a way of altering time similar to that you would propagate those changes outward from the Guardian planet while the planet itself and everybody on it would be unaffected.

644. dmduncan - April 2, 2011

See you can’t go back in time beyond the time that the machine was active because the machine would not be operable prior to that. Go back further and it starts disassembling into parts.

645. dmduncan - April 2, 2011

So from the standpoint of those who built it and turn it on, all of a sudden the door opens and you come out. But the last thing they remember you were having a donut and coffee ten feet away. When they look to see where you went, they’d notice you were gone, and the only one of you now in the room would be the one that just came out of the time machine saying “it works!”

646. dmduncan - April 2, 2011

If somebody was watching you eat the donut as you stepped from the machine he would see you — donut and coffee too — just disappear instantly.

647. MJ - April 2, 2011

@643 “B. BUT, he would be able to kill his dad or his grandfather, and that would NOT be a paradox because, strictly speaking, he did not actually go back in time but rather reversed events to a point in time that was otherwise identical but for the fact that the point he reversed them to does not have a younger version of himself in it, so it’s different. It’s not really his past. It’s more like a cosmic trick he’s playing.”

If you went back and killed Adolph Hitler using this time machine and you stayed in the past, then wouldn’t you see events from that point forward results in a different history within the same universe…i.e. it would be the same single universe that is now changed, not a new branch universe as with an MWI time machine? RIght?

648. MJ - April 2, 2011

@645 “So from the standpoint of those who built it and turn it on, all of a sudden the door opens and you come out. But the last thing they remember you were having a donut and coffee ten feet away.”

How is that trick accomplished? Say benevolent aliens dropped off a time machine like this on Earth for me to us (and it was built 1000 years ago, allowing me to travel 1000 years back). You are saying that if I went back in time that I would not see myself as a young boy…I would be missing? I don’t see the logic here?

649. dmduncan - April 2, 2011

647: “If you went back and killed Adolph Hitler using this time machine and you stayed in the past, then wouldn’t you see events from that point forward results in a different history within the same universe…i.e. it would be the same single universe that is now changed, not a new branch universe as with an MWI time machine? RIght?”

Correct. Things would unfold differently but within the same universe, without MWI.

650. MJ - April 2, 2011

@649. OK DM, so then, why couldn’t the Guardian of Forever be a time machine based on these principles? It seems to fit the bill, doesn’t it?

651. dmduncan - April 2, 2011

648: “How is that trick accomplished? Say benevolent aliens dropped off a time machine like this on Earth for me to us (and it was built 1000 years ago, allowing me to travel 1000 years back). You are saying that if I went back in time that I would not see myself as a young boy…I would be missing? I don’t see the logic here?”

It seems funny, I know, but that is how it would work out. Because you are now in the time machine going backwards, there is no “you” outside of the time machine regressing to younger states of being that you would visit once you stopped the machine and got out.

That’s also why the guy seeing you eat the donut would also see you instantly disappear once you walked out of the time machine on the other side of the shop. Because you are not really there. Instead of light bouncing off you and entering his eyes, it would pass right through the space where you were and he would see nothing where a moment before he remembers seeing you.

652. dmduncan - April 2, 2011

650: “@649. OK DM, so then, why couldn’t the Guardian of Forever be a time machine based on these principles? It seems to fit the bill, doesn’t it?”

Hmmm. Interesting question. I can’t find any reason to object to it just yet.

653. Jack - April 2, 2011

651. Wait, what? I know none of this is real, but why would you cease to exist in the past as well? I get that you’d vanish in the present because you were, well, leaving to go back in time (and that was a very, er, precise explanation of what disappear means). But how would that affect you in the past? Are you saying your existence would have been erased? I don’t see why. Wouldn’t there just be another version of you in the past, as in Trek 09 etc. What you described is not traveling inside your body, a la Peggy Sue Got Married, so you wouldn’t be ‘regressing.’ I guess we should leave this to the physicists.

654. Jack - April 2, 2011

ps. man, we really cleared the room here :).

655. LWR - April 4, 2011

hey BOB:
this may not be about how much time has lapsed between teh 2 movies, but i think it would be another classic wink and nod:.. toss us a little ST easterr egg in the alternate universe of FRINGE. like the back to the future deal, show reruns of trek on Tv with Pine and company listed on the credits in the style of the classic intro..LOL!

656. Dirk - April 20, 2011

The Star Trek canon tells us depending how you go back in time determines whether a possible paradox or alternate reality will be established. In the case of the film reboot an alternate reality was referenced by the crew. I assume they didn’t go into it more because they were trying to make regular sci-fi viewers happy and not just trekkies.

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