Zoe Saldana Talks Star Trek Sequel – Hints At More Uhura/Spock [UPDATED] | TrekMovie.com
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Zoe Saldana Talks Star Trek Sequel – Hints At More Uhura/Spock [UPDATED] January 28, 2012

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Celebrity,ST09 Cast,Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

Last night Zoe Saldana was in Utah for the Sundance Film Festival, appearing at the premiere of her next film, The Words. While there she took some questions about the Star Trek sequel currently in production, including talking a bit about the Spock/Uhura relationship. Details below. [UPDATED]

 

 

Saldana talks Star Trek sequel

The crafting, but she did speak a bit about the Star Trek sequel to the Vulture Blog. Firstly, Saldana talked about the long wait between film and the anticipation to get back to Star Trek:

The film came out in 2009, we shot it in ’07, and now it’s 2012. So yeah, around last year, I was like, "Come on, come on already," because I had such a wonderful time working with J.J. and the cast and doing science fiction, which is my biggest passion and my preference as an audience and as a reader, too. But when you’re around J.J. and you’re around [Avatar director] Jim Cameron, you sense that there’s this absolute consciousness that if they don’t focus on the quality of what they do, then their formula’s not going to work. That’s the one thing they have in common; they’re amazing storytellers, so J.J. probably would have fought for the time that he needed for the sequel.

The actress was reluctant to talk about the state of the relationship between Spock and Uhura in the sequel, but did offer this bit:

All I’m going to say is, if you put all the time and energy and wit into setting these two characters together in the first movie and didn’t follow through, it would be a shame.


Saldana says it would be a "shame" if the sequel didn’t follow-up on the romance with Spock and Uhura seen in 2009′s "Star Trek"

At the same event, Saldana also joked around with IndieWire, with this exchange:

Q:Now for the fun part: what lies can you tell me about the “Star Trek” sequel?
Saldana: It’s going to be boring. There’s no conflict between Kirk and Spock, they agree on everything! They’re beer buddies. And there are no bad guys. We’re just cruising in space.

UPDATE: More from Zoe

Getting more serious, Saldana talked about returning to the Trek set and working again with director JJ Abrams, telling AP:

"It’s wonderful because I’ve been dying to work with the cast again, to work with JJ," she said. "I love him so much. He’s such an amazing human being and such an amazing storyteller and a great director, so what more can I ask for? I start the year and I’m literally going back to a very familiar environment and being a part of a great story."


Saldana at Sundance 2012


Saldana at "The Words" premiere at Sundance 2012

 

Comments

1. Simpleton - January 28, 2012

Classy girl

2. Marklar - January 28, 2012

Sounds like she wants it to be spicier…Pon Farr anyone?

3. Commodore Mike of the Terran Empire - January 28, 2012

Zoe is as hot as ever. Hey. Spock should be pretty close to Pn Far. Hmmm.

4. Aurore - January 28, 2012

…..And now it’s solid… solid as a rock….
That’s-what-this- love iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis………….

:)

5. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2012

If I see Spock and Uhura getting it on during his Pon Farr in the sequel I think I’ll puke.

There are other directions they can go.

6. Aurore - January 28, 2012

……The thrill is stiiiiiiill hot, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot!…….

:)

7. Marklar - January 28, 2012

Well now that I think about it, Spock’s emotions are going to be out of whack…so it’s going to be “The Heat of the Moment”…

Yeah I know….bad pun….but soooo worth it.

8. Craiger - January 28, 2012

RDR you forget this is Spock before the Kholinar.

9. Craiger - January 28, 2012

Also I wonder if in the new timeline Spock wouldn’t even go through the Kohlinar and decide to have both logic and human emotions?

10. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2012

#8.

Yeah, I know that. But it doesn’t mean we have to see Spock go through Ponn Farr again. We already saw that in “Amok Time”. To do that with Uhura would be ridiculous.

11. Allen Williams - January 28, 2012

ponn formaran!
I was instructed to speak English on this mission and I would appreciate it if you would respect that.

12. Basement Blogger - January 28, 2012

I hope the Spock-Uhura thing doesn’t take away from troika of Kirk-Spock-McCoy. More McCoy Bob Orci. More McCoy. More McCoy. Did I say that enough. Hey if it gets the female demographic up, then take off his shirt. But I say again, MORE MCCOY!

13. alec - January 28, 2012

I want conflict between Kirk and Khan not Kirk and Spock!

Kirk represents the (perfectly) resolved conflict between the logic of spock and the emotion of McCoy. Kirk is the ‘golden mean’ (to use Aristotle’s terminology) between those two extremes. He has just the right amount of logic and emotion to make the best decisions. He, unlike they, is not an extremist. Kirk in conflict with Spock is Kirk in conflict with himself: which goes against his very nature as explained above.

Whereas, Khan represents the, if you like, evil version of Kirk: a very powerful, intelligent, handsome charismatic person (just like Kirk) – who just happens to be bad!

We had enough of the Kirk v Spock v the world, imho, in Trek 2009 with ‘Cadet Kirk’. Who was a little too anakin Skywalker for me. A moaning little up-start.

The actors have aged and wont be able, I think, to play themselves immediately after the first film. So they will have to have aged ‘on screen’. Hopefully, that means they have a little more maturity. This isn’t supposed to be Saved by the Bell in space…

Oh, and get rid of that booze factory.

14. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2012

#9.

Technically, Spock can be a totally different, and very emotional character in the new timeline. Different from the TOS Spock. The writers have the right to do that. But I don’t agree with that approach. Because if you make Spock an emotional HUMANIZED lover, then it really isn’t Spock anymore, except in name only.

What made Spock so great during the TOS years was his status as an outsider, someone struggling to come to terms with both his human and Vulcan halves. He was caught between two worlds, and preferred staying on the Vulcan side of things. Logic over emotion. It was his alienness and cold detachment that attracted a lot of fans, in particular, women.

15. Sugar Rush - January 28, 2012

How about this: the destruction of Vulcan makes it imperative that re-population commence immediately. Some female chooses Spock, Uhura doesn’t like like it, so they battle (female version) a la Amok Time.

16. Phil - January 28, 2012

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA…….HAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAA……..
….outta breath …

17. Phil - January 28, 2012

I LOVE this….

Saldana: It’s going to be boring. There’s no conflict between Kirk and Spock, they agree on everything! They’re beer buddies. And there are no bad guys. We’re just cruising in space.

Someone has been looking over Mr. Orci’s shoulder when he is reading the message boards here.

Bring on the little Spocura’s and Uhuocks!!. Hey, Sarek, watch the kids for us tonight, okay? Uhura and I are going to beam over to New Vegas for the evening…..

18. Craiger - January 28, 2012

RDR Spock was using Logic in the first movie.

19. Craiger - January 28, 2012

I mean the reboot movie.

20. Caesar - January 28, 2012

UGh.

21. Phil - January 28, 2012

Logic? Sarek: Spock, I was the ambassador to earth. It was only logical that I marry a local to explore her…ur, their customs…….

Come on, guys, No one has an issue with Sarek and Amanda. Why is this such a stretch?

22. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2012

#18.

True. But he was also acting on emotion most of the time. Which I didn’t have a problem with, seeing as how we were watching a younger version of the character having to deal with the destruction of Vulcan.

I’d just prefer that in the sequel, Spock is closer his TOS counterpart.

23. lemrick - January 28, 2012

LOL! I knew they weren’t going anywhere. Like Zoe said, why would they go through all the trouble? Zachary is a huge Spock/Uhura shipper right along with Zoe, so I’m glad to see them getting what they want.

24. Tom - January 28, 2012

This is one of the things I don’t think worked. I still to this day look at the Spock/Uhura thing and probably the whole brewery and swollen hands thing and scrapped that and included the Shatner scene. I think those scenes were just as shoehorned in as Shatner was perceived by JJ to have have been.

Cant argue with the success of the movie and i truly enjoyed it but jeez when he said the Shatner thing didnt work I immediately thought of this and said well I guess most of the choices made were good (including Vulcan) in my opinion but there were some headscratchers

25. Danpaine - January 28, 2012

Spock + Uhura = bad idea,

It’s a waste of screen time. Spend it on story and characterization instead.

26. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2012

#21.

Because Sarek was….different from Spock. Remember that Sarek and Spock didn’t have the best of relations, mainly because Spock disagreed with Sarek’s choices. Spock couldn’t understand love. But beyond that, Spock seemed to be more rigid when it came to Vulcan religion and philosophy of logic and the purging of emotion than Sarek was.

Sarek “broke the rules” of sorts, while his son was a steadfast follower of Vulcan edict.

27. Nano - January 28, 2012

2007 to 2012 It’s been a real 5 yr mission! Yeah come on!

28. Craiger - January 28, 2012

Or how would it be if Spock becomes the Spock in TOS by the end of Sequel or the third one and Uhura spurned gets with Kirk?

29. WillH85 - January 28, 2012

It would be a shame if you did follow through. It felt forced and just thrown in there in the first movie. Felt like the writers said, “hey, we need a romance and it can’t involve Kirk. So…um…Uhura, and who else? Checkov? Nah too young. Ooo, Spock. Why not?” But of course they’re going to keep it going because they feel that they have to have some romance in there I guess. But at the rate they’re making these movies, Spock and Uhura might already have kids by this next one and probably grand kids by the one after.

30. NCM - January 28, 2012

I’m not a Spock/Uhura fan, but, if it’s unavoidable, it’s nice to see that the actress has a certain charm. Loved her ‘lies`–a bit more witty and revealing than most of what we get, and without revealing too much. Way to tread the thin line, Saldana!

31. ME!! - January 28, 2012

Ugh…enough of the Spock/Uhura relationship. Have them recognize the fact it’s there, but I don’t watch frikkin’ Star Trek to see a couple slobbering on each other. I’ll watch a girly flick with my wife if I want that crap.

32. Hat Rick - January 28, 2012

LOL — “they’re beer buddies.” :-)

By the way, that’s a nice nod to the brewery nature of the engine room, subconscious or not.

33. Peter Loader - January 28, 2012

The Spock and Uhura relationship is fine. This incarnation of Trek is heading in the right direction…away from the previous…and at warp speed. Bring it on!

34. RoobyDoo - January 28, 2012

Star Trek: Cruising in Space. Not a bad title. ;-)

35. Rod of Rassilon - January 28, 2012

“please captain, not in front of the klingons”

36. Buzz Cagney - January 28, 2012

Urgh. Please no. Tell me it ain’t so. No more ghastly Spock/Uhura crap. I bloody hated that more than i hated engineering.

All pouty, sultry looks flung across the bridge and in 3 bloody dimensions.
I think i may be getting too old to be bothered with this movie!

37. GG - January 28, 2012

I guess I can live with it, just as long as they don’t show so much PDA (“Get a room!”) like they did in the last one. I can buy the fact that Spock might want a relationship/mate, but I DO NOT buy him being comfortable getting sloppy kisses all over his face from Uhura right in front of everyone. I think Zoe really overdid it with the “multiple kisses” all over his face. It was a bit much.

38. alec - January 28, 2012

25. Danpaine – January 28, 2012

Indeed. It was almost like they were just trying to find something for Uhura to do like with Trio getting drunk and Worf getting a pimple!

In almost every other scene she’s in, the dialogue is just about her having a right to be there: replace that useless male officer, I speak all dialetcs of Romulus fluently, I have great ‘oral sensitivity’, etc. We know you deserve to be on the bridge: stop telling us! Much of the same with Chekov…

39. Bucky - January 28, 2012

Don’t mind the romance between Spock & Uhura, however, I would be much more interested if in the sequel their romance somehow involves Uhura doing a nude fan dance.

40. none - January 28, 2012

I love Spock/Uhura together …they have a relationship that is similar to Aragon and Arwen from the Lord of the Rings and those are the kind of romances I enjoy. it is not crazy or trying to hard like Bella and Edward (Twifail) or disturbing and lustful like Anakin and Padme (Star Wars).

However I always wondered how Nuspock and NUuhura have sex, Vulcans are supposed to be 3x stronger than a male human. if spock goes into pon farr wont he kill her?

Am also glad no one mention Zachery Quinto being gay or making the relationship between Kirk/Spock sexual because ZQ is gay. ZQ is a great actor who can play any part .He was straight in Heroes and gay in American horor story,however I hope I see him kiss more women on screen especially Zoe.

41. none - January 28, 2012

And I forgot to add…..I hope JJ Abrams tells Zoe Saldana to eat more, No offence to her die hard fans but the girl is too THIN.

42. Trekker5 - January 28, 2012

#12,Basement Blogger,Amen,Amen!! The ‘Big Three’ we need more of!! And more McCoy/Spock stuff as well!! The Spock/Uhura thing is great;in my world there married and have a kid. But I wanta see more of the guys together ya know?

43. Nony - January 28, 2012

We can’t have romance in our space explosions.

That might accidentally contribute to the idea that the characters have rounded and realistic personalities and occasionally develop emotional and sexual attachments to others!!1!

44. Simon - January 28, 2012

@ #25 – Yes, and relationships between people isn’t characterization…

>facepalm<

45. Starbase Britain - January 28, 2012

Please no more Spock/Uhura thing.
Greg UK

46. rm10019 - January 28, 2012

I look forward to watching the relationship between Spock and Uhura grow. A sex scene would generate a lot of buzz while doing the press junket and be something new and different for Trek.

47. Penny - January 28, 2012

squee!

That is all.

48. Andrews - January 28, 2012

Cue whiners!

I loved them together and can”t wait for more.

49. NanoTechDudeLA - January 28, 2012

Trek romance is fine with me, as long as they don’t do some kind of “Brokeback Planet” with Kirk and Spock :):)

50. NanoTechDudeLA - January 28, 2012

And btw. Miss Saldana is gorgeous as always!

51. moauvian waoul - aka: seymour hiney - January 28, 2012

41. Right on. Lots of guys like ‘em fat.

52. AJ - January 28, 2012

41 none:

“No offence to her die hard fans but the girl is too THIN.”

Bonnie Bedelia? Yuck Yuck.

53. VulcanFilmCritic - January 28, 2012

@ 14 RedDeadRyan. While I applaud the Spock/Uhura “thang.” I really don’t want to see the entire franchise morph into “Days of Our Lives.”
A human Spock is not very interesting. AT ALL. He’s just a man with funny ears.
And is it my imagination but is he no longer greenish anymore?

54. dmduncan - January 28, 2012

40. none – January 28, 2012

“However I always wondered how Nuspock and NUuhura have sex, Vulcans are supposed to be 3x stronger than a male human. if spock goes into pon farr wont he kill her?”

Great question!!! If we’re lucky, perhaps the movie will be released concurrently with a lavishly illustrated Spock/Uhura edition of the Kama Sutra.

55. Iva - January 28, 2012

Of course it will happen, be realistic.

If you don’t have Nuhura running around to jump Spock again, what else is she gonna do on the ship?
What else is the point of her existence?

Her role as a communications officer on Enterprise is unnecessary, both by this universe having more advanced com. technology,
and because it is shown already that other bridge officers like Chekov can work at that station at the same time as their own – at any time and do just fine.

Just make her a space baby mama already, so we can all happily move on to important parts of story.

56. Go-cart Mozart - January 28, 2012

#52

Bonnie Bedelia…? [shakes head]

57. captain_neill - January 28, 2012

They have to keep one of the things I was not keen on in the new film?

58. Dee - lvs moon' surface - January 28, 2012

… go Uhura go… :-) ;-)

59. Cervantes - January 28, 2012

If they have to give over some more screentime to the ridiculous nu-Uhura/nu-Spock ‘relationship’, then I hope it’s to show how they ‘break up’ and move on!

60. Basement Blogger - January 28, 2012

Hey here’s a report about Zoe’s new man, not Spock, Bradley Cooper at Sundance. They’re both in the same indie film. There’s a quote about J.J. but it’s nothing new.

http://movies.msn.com/movies/article.aspx?news=699270

61. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

#37 – “getting sloppy kisses all over his face from Uhura right in front of everyone. I think Zoe really overdid it”

Gosh, what movie were you watching? I seemed to have missed all the “sloppy kisses”. Damn!

“just as long as they don’t show so much PDA (”Get a room!”)”

Now, if only *they* wouldn’t show so much PDB or PDV.

(PDB – public displays of brutality. PDV – public displays of violence).

62. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

Once again, a Trek cast member managing to say a lot of nothing, although I did appreciate Zoe’s “lies”.

63. DeShonn Steinblatt - January 28, 2012

Cruising in space doing nothing? They already did that movie in 1979.

64. Lt. BAILEY - January 28, 2012

# 62 Rose

I tend to agree, all these posts from ST 2009 stars tell us nothing or it is nothing but mis-direction. I am not sure what to believe.

65. TrekkerChick - January 28, 2012

@55

But, does everyone else also have her character’s “focus on xenolinguistics ["all three Romulan dialects"]” and “exceptional aural sensitivity” and “unparalleled ability to identify sonic anomolies in subspace transmission tests”?

66. Greenberg - January 28, 2012

I’d be a lot happier if she’d hint at the movie being more interesting.

67. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2012

Hey, maybe J.J Abrams can do a show about nothing, ala “Seinfeld”. He and his cast and crew are good at speaking paragraphs and saying nothing, while we dissect every minutia.

Bow-ba-ba-ba-bow, bow-bow-bow, ba-bow-bow-bow,

Bow-ba-ba-ba-bow, bow-bow, da-DAH-da-da!

Pop-pop-pop-PAH!

“Abrams”.

68. TrekkerChick - January 28, 2012

@63

As long as it doesn’t turn into a sci-fi version of “To Wong Foo: Thanks for Everything! Love Julie Newmar”, I’m even good with ‘cruising around’

69. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

The cruise ship Enterprise
The cruise ship Enterprise
(sung to the melody of the Good Ship Lollipop)

Go, K/O and JJ – yous the mans…:)!

70. Iva - January 28, 2012

65. TrekkerChick – January 28, 2012
@55

But, does everyone else also have her character’s “focus on xenolinguistics ["all three Romulan dialects"]” and “exceptional aural sensitivity” and “unparalleled ability to identify sonic anomolies in subspace transmission tests”?”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

Quite a lot of people do, actually.
She was among top students taking the course, remember? Just what is expected of students in any academy, not to be average.

Not an actual top student like Chekov, Spock or Kirk with genius level intelligence and talent that goes far beyond their age group.

All of her “impressive” skills are unnecessary – she is fully replaceable by tech. and other people up to the point of not even having to actually BE there on her post.
Shown in the movie.

It would be interesting to have that top student from her class in the sequel, somebody equal in intelligence and talent to Spock, Kirk and Chekov, to take over while she is busy being a mom.
Because, really – if Enterprise is a top ship, why aren’t top people on it?

That one could also be honoured with actually having her rank on her
(in case it was a girl).

71. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

Forgot to mention – instead of seeing Kirk munching into a big apple, he is sucking on one of those big lollipops.

I foresee in my oddly coloured crystal ball an Oscar in the making here. Can you all not feel it as I do?

72. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

#70 – No, a linguist cannot be totally replaced by technology, not even today, let alone someone who needs to be able to decipher languages that may be not familiar at all to anyone, as in what might be communicated by an alien species. Besides, the technology is only as good as its programmer.

Why are people so ANGRY about this Lt Uhura not only being a valuable member of a young crew, but also having a focus on the welfare of one member of the crew in particular? At no time, was Uhura compromising the welfare and safety of anyone, in spite of what some may think.

Oh never mind… so long as the phasers in the new movie don’t go “phew, phew” (or whatever it was they were supposed to have sounded like) in the next movie.

Star Trek 2013 – Hollywood muscle clones and no PDA but lots of PDB (23rd century)

Maybe the world ending on 21 December 2012 might be doing us a favour if above is all we have to look forward both in the cinema and in a real life future.

73. AJ - January 28, 2012

56 Go-cart Mozart:

“Die Hard” (referred to in the post as ‘die-hard fans’) starred Bonny Bedelia as John McClain’s wife in the Nakatomi Building terrorist attack (I) or the equally pop-corny “Die Hard 2″ where Miles O’Brien crashes a British jumbo-jet in a snowstorm. Bruce Willis stars. My silly nonsense reference, so ignore it.

Ignore Die Hards 3 & 4 as well.

74. Iva - January 28, 2012

#70 – No, a linguist cannot be totally replaced by technology, not even today, let alone someone who needs to be able to decipher languages that may be not familiar at all to anyone………”””””””””””””

Like for example – Klingon? Good linguist indeed.

I’m sure an actual top student from Nuhura’s class instead of just her wouldn’t have any trouble.
Especially given that people who aren’t even linguists themselves can replace her (as shown in movie) – somebody who has both studied it and is better than her is what Enterpise deserves.

One of newly cast actors perhaps? A Vulcan? Human? Andorian?
It’d be nice to have the first Andorian in Starfleet on the Enterpise. Just sayin’

As for her not compromising anyone’s life, I guess the thousands that could have been saved if she had done her job in alerting Vulcan the moment she was ordered to, instead of “professionally”running around to jump her academy instructor thus forcing other people to leave their job and step in to do it …….do not matter.
Or that lovely woman only a second too late to be saved,
needed time lost because her son was caught in an unnecessary and unprofessional liplock on the transporter platform and had to waste time with his student in order to peel her away before finally transporting to the surface?

75. AJ - January 28, 2012

Re: “conflict between Kirk and Spock,” it is known from this site that Bob and the boys wanted a ‘Lennon/McCartney’ vibe as the Kirk/Spock dynamic heated up in their iteration of the tale.

That vibe gets a bit complex going forward from what we know about the Beatles, whereas the Kirk/Spock vibe tended to settle into a real groove which, frankly, Kolinahr era aside, just kept on going, with even more ‘kick’ after V’ger.

Great conflict from TOS between Kirk and Spock? Menagerie.

76. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

Iva – You have been writing nasty stuff about Uhura’s actions since I came here. You don’t know that the 30? seconds she took to comfort her friend who had just lost practically everything or the time it took Spock to answer what was an entirely relevant question could have prevented anything. It is all in the realm of ifs, buts and maybes.

What I(we) do know, however, that hindsight is a wonderful thing. And of course, there is also the blame game…two things you seem very adept at using, especially if it means “crapping on” Uhura’s character, as depicted in the film, or on the Spock/Uhura relationship.

Gosh, has no one heard of “Let no man put asunder…”?

77. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

“needed time lost because her son was caught in an unnecessary and unprofessional liplock on the transporter platform and had to waste time with his student in order to peel her away before finally transporting to the surface?”

Wrong scene, Iva. If you are going to go all nasty again on Uhura’s actions, at least, be accurate. There was no liplock before Spock transported to the planet in order to save those in the Katric Arc. The first “liplock” happened in the turbolift AFTER Spock had lost his mother and planet was destroyed. The other “liplock” occurred on the transporter platform just before Kirk and Spock were to be transported across to the Narada. The only other people who witnessed the Spock/Uhura embrace were Kirk, Scotty and Scotty’s assistant (played by Chris Doohan). Hardly a huge public display… These “liplocks” both occurred AFTER Vulcan’s destruction!

78. Go-cart Mozart - January 28, 2012

#73

Yeah, I’m familiar with the Diehard movies quite well. Just didn’t understand the reference, but while we’re at it, uh, William Atherton! Double yuck and a Peck!

79. NCM - January 28, 2012

69. Keachick – rose pinenut – January 28, 2012:
“The cruise ship Enterprise
The cruise ship Enterprise
(sung to the melody of the Good Ship Lollipop)”

It’s another ship these U/S discussions always bring to my mind:

Love, exciting and new
Come Aboard. We’re expecting you…
The Love Boat soon will be making another run
The Love Boat promises something for everyone
Set a course for adventure,
Your mind on a new romance…
Love won’t hurt anymore
It’s an open smile on a friendly shore.
It’s LOVE! It’s LOVE! It’s LOVE!
It’s the Love Boat-ah! It’s the Love Boat-ah!

80. LetThemEatBridgeCrew - January 28, 2012

Zoe rocks me freaky. But Uhura menage a K/S gets my rocks off.

Cmon Bob O & JJ, the possibilities are INFINITE. WALK ON THE WILD SIDE.

YAZOO!!

81. Mouse in a corner - January 28, 2012

#74 – Ok, you lost me on this one. If you’re referring to the transporter scene, that happened after Spock’s Mum died, not before. In fact all the ‘lip locking’ as it were, happened after that event. All we see before Amanda’s death is when Spock is getting ready to beam down to Vulcan, Uhura is asking him where he’s going and he replies about the Katric Ark and his parents and the council being there.

Now if you’re talking about precious seconds being wasted, why did Spock go to the same transporter room as the one being used to beam up Kirk & Sulu? It’s been eluded that the Enterprise has more than one transporter room, wouldn’t it have made more sense for him to go to a transporter room not in use, instead of having to ask Kirk and Sulu to ‘clear the platform.’ and waste time there?

At the end of the day, it’s just a movie. It seems like you don’t like the Uhura character (or at least NuUhura) which is fair enough, but where in the movie did it show she was replaced by someone who is not a linguist, and that she wasn’t able to do her job?

82. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

Spock wasted no time getting to Vulcan, nor did he have his time “wasted” either. Uhura asked him as acting captain why he was leaving his post in a crisis situation. It was a totally relevant question that needed to be asked (Uhura) and answered (Spock).

83. NCM - January 28, 2012

I disagree with notions that Uhura’s position would be irrelevant. All manner of Earth creatures communicate via body language–intelligent life across the galaxy might do likewise. I’d emphasize ‘communications officer’ over linguistics specialist (not too late to tweak the role in that direction) and have Uhura be a regular on away teams as well as the bridge.

I’d like to see Trek better balance gender and position. I like Uhura’s character. I’d rather not see her primarily defined by her role with Spock, and delivering a few lines from her station. I also think it’ll be hard to do justice to the defining relationship of TOS (the K-S-Mc dynamic) while Spock has a better half–that has nothing to do with his heritage.

Ultimately, I think the team will pour heart, soul, talent and more into the effort and will produce something we can all enjoy so long as we’re willing to be a little flexible.

84. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

#80 Menage a trois! Spock brings the brains and Kirk the sexy brawn. That lucky woman, Uhura! I am now officially “jealous”…:)

85. Iva - January 28, 2012

@ Keachick – judging by your comment, you -and whatever other usernames you use, have been here for a while.

In that case you already know I have spent years (literally) critisizing everything and everybody in the move
(Spock, Pike, Romulan culture, Nero, Vulcans, Sarek, Amanda, Bones, Kirk, Spock Prime, Starfleet academy etc.), including the writers, Simon Pegg, Quinto, Pine, Nimoy, director and even Star Wars.
I’m not gonna skip over Nuhura either.
And I still have to go over Sulu and Scotty/and that gremlin creature later.

No special treatment.

86. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

#83 I agree. This is something I have been saying from the outset on this and other Star Trek boards. A communications officer would be essential to almost any landing party. If the captain and first officer are, then surely the communication officer is. I think that there *realistically* should be about six per (TOS like) landing party – Captain Kirk, Mr Spock, Lt Uhura, Dr McCoy and two security officers.

Captain Kirk wants to be there, in the middle of it all, making (first) contact, experiencing everything (he does NOT want to read about it – I mean, Kirk would be asking – “Why the hell am I here, in the first place, if not to see for myself?”) Kirk ain’t Picard. This is a major difference between Kirk and Picard and even Picard got sick of just reading about stuff at times.

“All manner of Earth creatures communicate via body language–intelligent life across the galaxy might do likewise. I’d emphasize ‘communications officer’ over linguistics specialist”

I agree here as well. In fact, in my little story outline posted a few weeks ago, it is quite likely that Lt Uhura may have suggested a more direct approach in making contact with the nuli seen near the space station. Kirk and Spock clearly saw the sense (and the obvious danger as well) in the suggestion. Although I have not spelled out it in the outline I gave, it was a given that the three (Kirk, Spock and Uhura) were on the “same page” as how best to make contact. Dr McCoy probably understood the logical sense of such an action but was also very conscious of the dangers and of previous encounters with nulis. Dr McCoy often came across to me as being the equivalent of a bantam hen, in a delightful sort of way. This situation would bring out that side of McCoy’s nature…:)

Although I have Kirk and Spock making the first contact with the nuli, there is really no reason why Uhura could not have gone as well, or even Dr McCoy. I guess what it came down to was Kirk’s need for visceral experience (and he is the captain) and Spock’s telepathic/mind-melding abilities. Of course, Lt Uhura and Dr McCoy, along with Scotty, were well aware of what Kirk and Spock were doing and would act as backup. This is a given.

87. Shilliam Watner - January 28, 2012

It’s funny how people say Spock shouldn’t be emotional, when he was, in fact, one of the most emotional characters in TOS. And being half human, it’s silly not to have him struggle with that anyway. There’s simply no good reason to require the character be written exactly like it once was. This is a new version. A more emotional Spock is logical, if you ask me.

88. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 28, 2012

Iva – my username is what you see here. I use Keachick on all sites I comment on and here I have come to use the name Keachick – rose pinenut. On the IMDb boards I also use the tagline “A rose for remembrance”. I posted my first comment here in June/July 2010 and it was a message to Bob Orci…

OK – you feel the need to criticize, nitpick, take stories and characters apart, and even the efforts of real life people like the writers and Zoe Saldana etc. Why the nastiness, because some of what you have written has been, to me at least, downright offensive, nasty and uncalled for?

I am sorry, but I just don’t get it, Iva.

89. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2012

#87.

How was Spock one of the most emotional characters in TOS? I didn’t see that. He smiled a bit early on in the series, but he became stoic for the most part, except for “Amok Time” where he was going through Ponn Farr, and in “This Side Of Paradise”, when he was affected by spores.

90. Buzz Cagney - January 29, 2012

#37 i’m with you. It just seemed to me that she saw her chance and went for it. It had nothing to do with comforting Spock and everything to do with what she wanted. Thats how I saw it, anyway.
You don’t plant sloppy kisses all over someone that had just lost his mother. It seemed a bit too much to me. A simple hug would have done.
Anyway, the lift scene gave me a chance to reply to texts or go and get some popcorn.

91. Anthony Thompson - January 29, 2012

41. none

Disagree heartily. It was Jerri Ryan who looked positively anorexic (in those days).

92. GarySeven - January 29, 2012

Sigh. Star Trek was not typically about conflict between Kirk and Spock. When it happened in TOS it was very unusual, and often something was amiss with one of the characters in that particular episode (Amok Time, What Are Little Girls Made Of, etc.). Now, in JJ’s world, conflict between Kirk and Spock is a staple.
Also some of the best episodes and movies didn’t have a “bad guy” (STIV, The Devil in the Dark” etc.). But now apparently, without Spock and Kirk in conflict and another cartoonish bad guy like Nero, Star Trek is to be considered “boring” in 2012.
Maybe everybody in the new Star Trek should fight and hate each other. After all, anything else would be boring, right?
I miss my Trek.

93. Jamie C. - January 29, 2012

Zoe is a cutie, but she also can convincingly use Technobabble which is what many of the new Star Trek actors and actresses cannot.

Sorry to say it but I see this Uhura with James T. Kirk and not Mr. Spock. BTW: Pan Far comes once every 7 years and this girl needs better taking care of than that.

Her being so cute adds many dimensions to the story that were lacking in the original…( I am sorry Nichelle )

94. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

How are the events of one movie a staple? Since when is conflict between Kirk and Spock in “JJ’s world” a staple? Such an illogical statement.

Even friends can disagree, without getting into fisticuffs or whatever. It is quite possible that Spock and Kirk may have a different take on certain events. That is what discussion is for – looking at a problem from various angles to see what the best solution might be for a particular difficulty.

#90 Uhura wasn’t planting “sloppy kisses all over” Spock. They were small, chaste kisses. Anyway, how do you know what a person may want from another in the way of comfort and affection just after they have lost their mother (and world)? People react differently in times like that, often unpredictably, and that would apply to Spock as well. Lord only knows how the surviving Vulcans may have responded to such catastrophic events. What happened to Vulcan is without precedent… (This alternate universe Romulus will possibly get destroyed by the supernova, but that is about 129 years in the future).

95. Buzz Cagney - January 29, 2012

How do I know what people want? Well, I know no more or no less than you do but in this instance, Kea, i’m basing my comments on my experience of having lost my mother. I know i’d have felt pretty bloody annoyed if someone (even someone as lovely as Zoe) started licking my face at that particular point.

No, sorry, but Uhura looked liked a bit of an opportunistic slapper to me.

96. Bugs nixon - January 29, 2012

Oh Zoe… Zoe… Lets run away together in a shuttlecraft.

97. SirBroiler - January 29, 2012

Uhura has aural sensitivity. Not oral. Although, Spock may say she has both.

98. Captain Gorn - January 29, 2012

Not a huge fan of Spock/Uhura, but I don’t think it deserves all the hate it gets here. I didn’t have a problem with the lift scene. Now, the transporter pad kiss was a bit much, I think, but I’ll let it go since Spock’s emotions would have been running a bit freer at this point due to all the events that were happening, like the loss of Vulcan and so forth, plus he thought he might never see Uhura again. But I’d prefer their relationship to be a bit more low-key in the sequel. It would be stupid to just ignore it, though, now that it’s been established. I’ve read some good Spock/Uhura stories, so their relationship can work if it’s well-written, and I have the utmost confidence in the writers.

As for conflict between Kirk and Spock, just look at WNMHGB. There was conflict between them when Spock wanted Gary Mitchell killed and Kirk didn’t. They have often been in disagreement. Conflict isn’t the same as an all-out fist fight.

I look forward to the sequel. Everything’s looking good – all I need to know now is that there’ll be more McCoy, and I’ll be super-happy.

99. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

#95 WTF? Are you stirring or something? Since when did Uhura lick Spock’s face? That would have to be one of the daftest and most inaccurate statements I have read about Star Trek 09.

As I said, people react differently when faced with a crisis. Maybe you didn’t want any kind of kissing or other physical affection, but you are not everyone.

As my husband said, Uhura offered Spock emotional support and reassurance and “being close to him would have reminded him in a positive way of his own human mother”. That aspect that I just quoted had not occurred to me. When my husband lost his mother some years ago, we did similar to what Spock and Uhura did, except that I did the crying. Honestly, I cannot understand the level of aggro against either scenes – the one in the turbolift or the one on the transporter pad. OK – I think the writers could have tweaked the transporter pad scene a bit and probably would have, had it not been for the writers’ strike.

I really do hope that the production team don’t give up on the notion of showing any sort of PDA or sexual affection between any of the characters because of all these prudish and nonsensical attitudes towards scenes of healthy human (alien?) affection.

100. Buzz Cagney - January 29, 2012

Kea, why would I be stirring just because I have an opinion that differs to yours? Are you trying to stir me or something? Because I am starting to get annoyed that you can’t accept I have an opinion that is different to your’s.
And i’ll say it again, i hated that Uhura felt the need to suck Spocks face at that time. I hated that she abandoned her post in the midst of the crisis. I hated the whole damned Spock/Uhura thing.
Please accept I am entitled to me opinion!
And your rambling posts aren’t going to change my mind either.

101. Aurore - January 29, 2012

“…perhaps the movie will be released concurrently with a lavishly illustrated Spock/Uhura edition of the Kama Sutra.”
____________

….With a preface by Sarek….Maybe.

Right……. Time for you to vomit, now….

:)

102. CmdrR - January 29, 2012

Kirk’s supposed to do the sucky-face thing with the chicks. Spock’s only supposed to stand there like a statue while they hang off of him.

OK, if Spock taps Uhura, then Kirk should get T’Pring.

103. Captain Gorn - January 29, 2012

I think maybe it’s time people just “agree to disagree”. The constant arguments about Spock/Uhura aren’t solving anything. Some people like their relationship, others don’t. Some, like me, are somewhere in the middle.

Can’t we just lay this argument to rest until the sequel comes out? The tiny amount of Spock/Uhura in the last movie has already been picked apart to death. No one’s going to convince anyone else to change their views, so what’s the point in arguing about it? A reasonable discussion on the matter is fine, but bickering isn’t.

Okay, lecture over. Sorry if I sound like a school marm.

104. VulcanFilmCritic - January 29, 2012

@ 92, 98

I think if you look at the best episodes of Star Trek: TOS. there is almost always conflict between Kirk and Spock. It may be subtle, but it’s always there.
This may be a reflection of the tension between the star of the show and the upstart side-kick who be came a phenomenon. The writers admitted that they picked up on the tensions between the two actors and created storylines in which Kirk had a lot of anxiety about Spock taking over the ship [or the show.] The Menagerie, eg.

Look at the best shows of the first and top part of the second seasons; while there may be a monster, or time disturbance or snotty official threatening the Enterprise, it is the essential tension between Kirk [=Gilgamesh] and his friend [=Enkidu] that gives those shows dramatic interest.

City on the edge of Forever: Kirk falls in love with Edith Keeler. Spock as the sibyl of Fate states she must die, and intends to make sure she does.
Similar conflict in Where No Man Has gone Before.
Amok time: Battle to the death between two friends
The Naked Time: Nothing is scarier than having the reliable First Officer having a meltdown. Rage and conflict between the Captain and the XO ensues.
This Side of Paradise culminates in head-to-head conflict between Kirk and Spock.
Devil in the Dark: Spock initially wants to capture the creature. Kirk wants it dead. Then when Kirk’s life is in danger, they flip.
And so on.

After the last half of the second season, the shows got kind of flabby. There is nothing more boring than watching Spock do “logical” schtick and perform like the loyal side-kick. Then they hit on the idea of a duo or trio doing comedy which kind of worked and became the standard formula as in A Piece of the Action and most of the movies.

Still I think the best shows were in the first and early second season, and this is what the Supreme Court were picking up on.
Although the relationships between the top three seemed to be a trinity, Spock-superego, McCoy-id, and Kirk-ego, I think this analysis is incorrect.
Kirk and Spock are opposites and McCoy functions best when he is the 20th Century man; he expresses what a reasonable man would think. What we the audience think. This can place him in conflict with either Spock or Kirk. Going forward with the new franchise, these relationships are presumably wide open.

As for Lt. Uhura, I usually think of the characters (with the exception of medical personnel) as being mission specialists, rather than having clearly defined roles. Lt. Uhura in TOS was supposed to be 4th in line in the chain of command, and the only reason this character Lt. LaSalle was created was to keep a Black woman out of the captain’s chair when Kirk, Spock and Scott are all off the ship. She would be trained in all aspects of space flight, not just communications. It’s too bad she never got to show her stuff on the show. You would think that almost half a century later, the predominantly male writing staff will someday acknowledge this.

And P.S. as for communications officers being replaced by computers, I agree that there is a lot they can do. Instead of just making her a secretary/switchboard operator as in TOS, or a linguist as in ST09, let’s focus on her skills as a technician; the ship still can’t repair itself. Yet.
And as a code breaker- yeah, computers can do some of that, but not in languages that are not in their data base. And as code makers- computers are still kind of lacking in the creative aspects of thought.

And P.P. S. Is it too strange to imagine Lt. Uhura’s mad fighting skills? Why can’t we have the chicks in the show kicking down doors, phasers in hand, and rescuing the guys once in a while? That kind of thing is really big in the movies these days (Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Hannah, Salt, etc.)
Zoe showed she could kick some serious butt (more through brain than brawn though) in Columbiana. But I’d personally like to see the dynamic duo of Uhura and Yeoman Rand.

105. Jack - January 29, 2012

103. Amen.

P.S. I wish the actors would just say “no comment.” or “what sequel?” or “my mother’s being held hostage and they she’s done for if I say anything.”

Save the talking/plugging for the endless talk show appearances once this thing is marketed.

106. CmdrR - January 29, 2012

“The constant arguments about Spock/Uhura aren’t solving anything.”

Capt. Gorn, who said we were trying to solve anything? We’re Trekkies; we’re trying to constantly argue minutia.

107. chrisfawkes.net - January 29, 2012

Zoe Saldana was perfect casting as Uhura.

I hope there is not lots of conflict between Spock and Kirk. There needs to be some transition to the level of trust that Spock has in Kirk but after that hope the conflict comes from other parts of the story.

I would like to see the fact that both lost a parent to the same madman become something that allows them to bond. If the process to get there is well done that could be a great moment.

108. Janice - January 29, 2012

I don’t think I want to see a lot of time eaten up by the Spock/ Uhura “romance”. A little but not a LOT.
I just want to see as much Pike as possible!

109. hcmv007 - January 29, 2012

Maybe the ‘conflict’ between Kirk & Spock could be that Sarek marries Winona Kirk. Just a thought.

Of course she could just be screwing with your minds. Only logical for me to go to the next phase with that one.

110. CmdrR - January 29, 2012

Anthony — is there a reason this site blocks certain posts (no cursing) and then tells me I’ve tried to sent a “duplicate comment” when none has posted? It’s very frustrating.

111. CmdrR - January 29, 2012

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

JJ Sequelverse. 23:00 hours. Kirk’s quarters.

Kirk: Spock, are you sure you want to give me this?

Spock: It appears I shall no longer be needing it, Captain. And since your propensity for promiscuity is unparalleled in the quadrant…

Kirk: Wow, your little green book.

Spock: There are some most gratifying moments in there.

Kirk: Logically enacted, no doubt.

Spock: Oh no. I banged the back outta their –

Kirk: Anyway, you’re willing to give all these ladies to me, so you can focus on Uhura?

Spock: It was her idea. We Vulcans call it the Ole B’allun Chy’ane.

Kirk: Hmmm. Well, let’s take a look. (paging through the tiny book) Measurements, communicator numbers, stellar rating system. Wow, you gave Christine Chapel a super nova.

Spock: She taught me — urm — alternate uses for plomeek soup, involving an i.v. drip and…

Kirk: Nevermind. I’ll just find out for myself. Hey, I didn’t know you and Rand bumped uglies.

Spock: Just once. After your transporter-inspired encounter, I deduced she was into the the rough stuff. Fortunately, Dr. McCoy’s ministrations saw her through and there was no lawsuit.

Kirk: So, that’s why she transferred. Never knew. OK, T’Pring, just one white dwarf?

Spock: Cold female. Not my type as it turned out.

Kirk: Yeah, I hope Stonn likes cold showers. Mira Romaine: two comets and… a black hole? You pointy-eared freak, you!

Spock: Self-explanatory. However, it should be noted that shortly after that particular interlude, I found my sonic shower set to “circumcision.”

Kirk: I’ll keep that in mind. Zarabeth: into leather. Well, we knew that. Droxine: likes to talk too much afterwards. Romulan Commander: man hands. Leila: married; husband has Death Wish for Vulcans.

Spock: A pulchritudinous pantheon, one and all.

Kirk: And you’re sure Nyota can satisfy you completely from here on out?

Spock: I have partaken of brown sugar, Captain. There is no reversing course.

Kirk: Well, I wish you every happiness. AND, I look forward to sampling your left-overs. That is… right after my group date tonight with Marta, Janice Lester, Lenore Karidian, Vanna, and Mama Horta. (a beat) You know where to find my last recording?

Spock: In your safe, behind your medals and p*rn.

Kirk: Don’t see why you’ll need it, but just in case.

Spock: Enjoy your date, Jim.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

112. CmdrR - January 29, 2012

Ah. It was the p-word.

113. Spockchick - January 29, 2012

I don’t want S/U to break up. IMHO that would give disproportionate weight to that aspect of the film, so I want them to coast on in the background, causing no ripples. I want a proper space film please, with more McCoy. More McCoy. For Gorn’s sake, please, more McCoy. And some Pike please.
@12 Basement Blogger. I’m with you! :-)

114. Captain Gorn - January 29, 2012

@112: 100% agreed. The movie must have large doses of McCoy and Pike. They are AWESOME.

115. Aurore - January 29, 2012

“….who said we were trying to solve anything? We’re Trekkies; we’re trying to constantly argue minutia.”
__________

Precisely.

Moreover, what is being argued, here, has a tremendous influence on the way the sequel is being written.

Look what happened with regards to the discussions about engineering, for instance; there will be no beer factory in the next Star Trek.

:)

P.S. Sugar Plum.

116. Aurore - January 29, 2012

….CmdrR,

It’s TrekkERrs NOT Trekkies.
Try to remember that, next time.

Thanks.

:)

117. CmdrR - January 29, 2012

Despite all authoritative claims (I got it from Nichelle Nichols directly that it’s Trekkers) the term Trekkies is more enduring in popular usage.

There, another piece of minutia!!

118. Craiger - January 29, 2012

I think Zoe was a good choice for Uhura but I was watching 2012 again on FX and I thought Thandie Newton looked like a young Uhura also. Did Thandie Newton audition for the role and would she have been good as a young Uhura?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0628601/

119. Orly - January 29, 2012

Personally I think when the scriptwriters have to start dishing out sufficient screen time to a large cast to keep them happy you’re going to compromise the power of the story. The villain in the last film was very underwritten and lacked impact. I hope that as the crew have already been established the writers have focused on giving the franchise the memorable original storyline it needs.

120. Trekker5 - January 29, 2012

#115,Aurore,Amen and Amen to that!! :) Oh,and hi! :)

121. Andy Patterson - January 29, 2012

92. GarySeven – January 29, 2012

“I miss my Trek.”

With you.

This subject of this thread makes me groan also.

122. Craiger - January 29, 2012

#120 and #92 Your Trek isn’t geared toward a general audience which is what you need for box office success. I liked TOS but to the general audience they probably find TOS boring.

123. Aurore - January 29, 2012

Hi, Olivia!

I hope you are well !

Me? I’m having a very nice day, trying, amongst other things, to influence the way the star Trek sequel is being written AND directed…

124. Hat Rick - January 29, 2012

People, people.

Sometimes I wonder what Gene Roddenberry would have thought of this constant arguing over the direction of Trek. If I were he, I would think that I would be encouraged that fans are so dedicated to such a grand and deserving creation.

But I also would be cognizant of one thing that I think endures, and shall always endure: Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

Note that diversity has, if anything, grown in importance by orders of magnitude since IDIC was formulated.

We really don’t have a choice in the matter; diversity is a fact of life, and of biology, and of spacetime itself.

Some day, some civilization will put the Earth on trial, actually or metaphorically, as Q did in TNG, and then we will have to answer for ourselves. Have we treated everyone as they truly deserved? Have we respected legitimate differences, even as we discussed them with passion?

And, ultimately, do we deserve to prevail in the universal prerogatives of existence, or are we to be relegated to the realm of those who were — perhaps — nearly good enough, but fundamentally too intolerant, too self-absorbed, for the good of the rest of those of sentience?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Live each day as though it were your last. Respect life, in all its forms. No one could ever ask for more — or less.

125. Captain Gorn - January 29, 2012

@115: Me, I’m a Trekkie. Always have been, always will be. Trekker always sounded too snobby to me. I’m not ashamed of my geekiness.

126. John from Cincinnati - January 29, 2012

I think they should drop the Uhura/Spock thing and instead focus on a Nurse Chapel/Spock relationship.

127. Aurore - January 29, 2012

@115: Me, I’m a Trekkie. Always have been, always will be.
________

Me, I was joking. I’m a Star Trek fan.

I was surprised to see that people had “arguments” over the two terms, a couple of years ago.

:)

128. Chasco - January 29, 2012

Why does Nuhura need to “be with” anyone?
The original Uhura (characterised and filmed in the 1960s) justified her place on the Bridge by being professional at all times and being good at her job.
Nuhura (characterised and filmed in 2009) is on the bridge because she’s the First Officer’s girlfriend. Wow, way to go, girl. Prove to all those teens out there that you don’t need brains or talent to succeed as a woman, you just need to…

And this is progress?

129. Greenberg - January 29, 2012

I’m really surprised that Nichelle Nichols didn’t complain about Uhura being basically turned into a brainless dickwall climber.

130. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

Uhura as Mrs. Spock. Oh the calamity.

131. Basement Blogger - January 29, 2012

@ 110

CmdrR,

“Ole B’allun Chy’ane.” Ha, ha, ha. Hey I think Kirk is going to get Alice Eve. Could she be Carol Marcus? Of course, this is a parallel universe. Kirk might be gay. Kirk gets Cumberbatch? Sulu (John Cho) gets Cumberbatch? Calling Neil Patrick Harris.

132. Daoudq - January 29, 2012

Captain, I’m scared.

133. Jack - January 29, 2012

I hope the story isn’t about the romance. Any romance. If they have relationship troubles or there’s a love triangle, well, me, I don’t want to see that in Star Trek. That’s what Twilight is for.

134. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

I agree with Ms. Saldana. It would be a horrible shame!!! I can’t wait to see more Spock and Uhura together. :-) I think it only makes sense that they’re already engaged. :-)

I’ll get to the comments section later.

@ Aurore

Thanks again for the link to the Quinto/Nimoy secret selves chat. I still want to see JJ do something behind the scenes where the two actors interview each other, and part of Nimoy’s set tour where he could mention some of the differences and similarities between this set and the ST movie sets that he worked on (that’s where a nice conversation with JJ could hapoen as his tour guide), then something with the whole cast and individual members adding in their thoughts and experiences. And then all of that with a production tour/’the making of’ feature. Probably won’t happen, but it’d be really nice with deleted scenes footage too. :-)

Will be back. :-)

135. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@#132

Then you should hope ‘the bromance’ doesn’t happen because that’s definitely a ‘triangle’. Yes, that is what Twilight is for. ;-)

136. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@#128

She didn’t complain because that’s not what happened. If you have a wife or a girlfriend, would you call her a “dickwall climber”?

Mmmh, it looks like I’m going to have to set aside some time today for this comments section. :-/

137. Jack - January 29, 2012

…if it’s taking up huge parts of the plot. It’s great if Decker/Illia, Kirk/Spock, Riker/Troi, Paris/Torres fall in love — but I don’t want Trek screen time taken up by it. There are flicks where I’d want to see more sex/love — because they’re about a relationship (Brokeback mountain, say).

Heck, there was talk that they wanted, variously, Saavik/Kirk and Saavik/Spock to end up together. And every action movie ever made forces in a love interest and makes the stakes all about saving the girl, a girl our hero just met. That’s what bugged me about Uhura in Trek ’09 — she was reduced to being just the girl.

138. Red Dead Ryan - January 29, 2012

#121.

“I liked TOS but to the mainstream audience they probably find it boring.”

Well, then that says more about them then it does about the show. Though I will grant you that the third season was mostly crap, with a few exceptions. But the first two seasons were top-notch sci-fi.

139. Jack - January 29, 2012

134. True. ;). But it wasn’t a triangle — Spock and McCoy weren’t competing for the title of Kirk’s BFF in some angsty way (arguably). There was no cat fighting in the lily pond. I don’t think McCoy was sitting by the comm waiting for Kirk to call him (with the Grey’s Anatomy first season soundtrack in the background)while K and S were off playing chess, or suddenly hanging out a lot with Mr. Kyle to make Kirk jealous.

140. Red Dead Ryan - January 29, 2012

#134.

“Then you should hope the ‘bromance’ doesn’t happen because that’s definitely a ‘triangle’. Yes, that is what Twilight is for. ;-)”

Have you even bothered to watch any of TOS? Because if you did, you’d realize how ignorant and dismissive your comments are regarding the Kirk-Spock-McCoy dynamic are.

141. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

I think my objections have to do with the expressions like “sucking face”, “planting sloppy kisses”, “licking face”. I do take those descriptions literally and none of those things actually happened in the movie. They are factually inaccurate and denigrating descriptions of Uhura’s actions towards Spock. Also, the absurd notion that Zoe Saldana would want to suck or lick Quinto’s face with all that movie make up on him is just so ridiculous and silly.

No, Nichelle Nichols did not object to “Uhura being basically turned into a brainless dickwall climber”, because that is NOT what Uhura was in the last movie. In fact, Nichelle Nichols championed the Spock/Uhura relationship…

It is really sad (and a little scary, I have to say) that two very short innocent scenes should have been turned into something smutty by people with wonky perceptions, as in seeing a tender peck on the cheek as someone sucking or licking another’s face. Kissing, licking and sucking are three different actions.

To be an optometrist right now…ka-ching, ka-ching!

142. VZXq - January 29, 2012

I guess I’m in the minority in that I am totally indifferent to the Spock & Uhura relationship. To me, it does make sense in a cinematic way, if you got 7 main cast members, you gotta have two of them hook up. I am also a Trek purist, though, with the whole Kirk-Spock-Bones triumvirate.

But, it doesn’t bother me either way, really. I just hope to have more McCoy in the next one!

143. Jack - January 29, 2012

139. Agreed! And that’s what bugged me about the romance — that it wasn’t nuanced and the whole point seemed to be “Kirk always gets the girl, let’s have Spock get the girl this time.” It was a set-up for Kirk’s (great) reaction shot on the transporter pad.

The characters were one-dimensional, although the actors pulled it off. Kirk’s supposed magnetism was reduced to him being a skirt-chasing horndog. Sure, he could have always been a d-uche in his academy days, but…

144. Trekker5 - January 29, 2012

#122,Aurore,I’m fine thank you for asking!! :) I love a good go around every now and again;but the Trekker/Trekkie thing is an old one that I’m tired of fighting! I chose Trekker because I’d heard it said on TV and I liked it. Hence I am a Trekker and I am proud of it!! :) But then again,what’s in a name? :)

145. Jack - January 29, 2012

140. keachick, er, are you so adamantly in favour of the romance because you want to see a little skin in this next Trek flick? Or shots of our heroes alone, in open shirts, riding a horse in slow motion on a beach?

Honestly, I’m not super against it, I think it ultimately worked okay. But it did make Uhura The Chick, and, onscreen, there wasn’t much else to her, unfortunately, other than being the object of desire and The Girl Who Kirk Can’t Get.

146. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

135: “Mmmh, it looks like I’m going to have to set aside some time today for this comments section. :-/”

Hey, I do enjoy the habitual ominous forewarnings of your forthcoming posts as if you are one of the four horseman of the S/U apocalypse unsealing plagues on the S/U infidels.

147. Jack - January 29, 2012

That came out harsher than I’d meant it to be…

You’ve said you like romance, sex, and skin… and it sounds like uou’re worried that people decrying the SU romance on here will sway the filmmakers to keep romance out of it.

Me, I worry that they’ll think, from reactions on here, that every fan wants a message-heavy, speech-filled current events/social issues-based allegory and we’ll end up with Insurrection or Trek V again. That’s why I’m constantly posting about how the bulk of the great TOS episodes had great stories — some of the weakest episodes existed only to reference current events. So, even though the story’s already written, I post and post.

I got a little flack on here, rightly, for posting that AC Crispin was against the romance as it played onscreen. She’s a novelist, someone said, so why is her opinion more valid than anyone elses’? Fair enough (although it was her job to know the characters well). I mentioned it because you’d cited her in an argument against the term Mary Sue. My point was, anyway, that we all have opinions on this, whether we liked it, didn’t or don’t care.

The actors might like it, but they’re actors — they like anything that gives them more screen time ;). Heck, it was Patrick Stewart’s idea to have Picard do the mambo.

148. VulcanFilmCritic - January 29, 2012

@143 Jack. It IS too bad they turned Kirk into a d-uche in his academy days.
But the deleted scenes on the DVD paint an even worse picture…of a sociopath. Kirk makes love to the green girl just to get her to open an e-mail from him that will activate the program that takes down the Kobayashi Maru test. *Nice*
He’s willing to do that to another classmate just to get a good grade??? How sick is that? We’re in real Finnegan territory now.

TOS Kirk may have been Casanova, but I always got the feeling that he was really turned on by whomever he was with. He’s was a true ladies man. And the girls always seemed to have fond memories of him, even if he couldn’t quite remember who they were after the fact.

The thing that bothered me about ST09 is the likability factor of the new Kirk and Spock. I think we can all agree that the new Bones, Scotty, Uhura and Chekov are all basically likable, but I think the jury is still out on the new Kirk and Spock.

149. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

#144 – Personally, I am not really that bothered about how the Spock/Uhura romance goes. Either they will eventually “move apart”, physically and emotionally, then separate or they won’t.

Actually, I thought it was Spock who was made the object of desire. Kirk never got much chance to be any skirt-chasing horndog (I don’t consider deleted scenes as part of the overall story). And once Kirk got onto the Enterprise and perceived the real danger, he became very focussed (no skirt-chasing horndog behaviour here) on saving the ship and the earth. Very TOS Kirk!

I think that people who watched TOS got the impression that Kirk got the chicks all the time, which was simply not true at all, because whenever Shatner/Kirk saw the opportunity for Kirk to have a relationship (not necessarily sexual) with a woman, he made it count! and that is what people remember, eg the Kirk/Edith Keeler shortlived romance.

To answer your question, Jack – both would be nice. Personally I would prefer a lovely development of a Kirk/? relationship. Like the Spock/Uhura relationship, it should be in the background, occasionally mentioned and even shown, but not the main focus of the story.

In my own story outline about Menosia’s discovery and Kirk meeting *Jasmia*, the developing romance does become the main focus, which is why it would probably work better as an episode. However, showing first contact with the planet and its lifeforms could be part of a movie, where the discovery could have wider implications for that part of the universe? the Enterprise? Starfleet? the Federation? other alien worlds? – you name it…

Bottom line – Yes, I do want to see my hero/captain shirtless, at the very least. Pine/Kirk has a very nice body which shouldn’t be hidden away all the time under (artificial) fabrics! Others may prefer to see Quinto/Spock or even Urban/McCoy – honestly, no reason why we can’t see these three (and others perhaps) shirtless. Just depends on the story and the skillfulness and imagination of the writers/director/actors. Bring it on, people!

150. Jack - January 29, 2012

147. Exactly. From what we saw on screen, Kirk had his destiny going for him and not much else.

And yeah, there was also that scene where he apologized to the wrong green girl.

And Spock was kind of a dick — we know he got teased as a kid, insulted by the acadamy and that he’s pissed off at Kirk for cheating on his (Spock’s) test and not much more. Otherwise he’s just pissy all the time.

We hear Spock’s a genius and that Kirk’s aptitude tests are off the charts, or something (did he cheat on those too?) but we don’t see anything that makes them all that interesting.

Yes, we grow into who we will become etc. but…

151. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

It’s still too early to say from what Zoe is saying. The implications could go anywhere. I just hope we aren’t getting another T’Pol/Trip thing.

I got through maybe three episodes of that and then I turned off Enterprise permanently. And I turned it off because that’s NOT what I Iiked about Vulcans in Star Trek.

152. Jack - January 29, 2012

“I think that people who watched TOS got the impression that Kirk got the chicks all the time, which was simply not true at all, because whenever Shatner/Kirk saw the opportunity for Kirk to have a relationship (not necessarily sexual) with a woman, he made it count! and that is what people remember, eg the Kirk/Edith Keeler shortlived romance.”

Agreed. ;)

He wasn’t good at it, at all, in Trek 2009, which was supposed to be funny, I guess. I was thinking of the “hello ladies” line and his repeated, clumsy flirting with Uhura. That deleted scene from the farm would have helped (maybe) show that there was a little more there behind the bravado. I still think Pine made it work.

By the third season Kirk was James Bond-lite. But he didn’t start out that way, I’d argue. So yeah, I agree.

And yeah, I’m all for a little nudity/shirtlessness, if it works. Heck, I watched the Twilight movies and it’s ridiculous that we don’t see even a suggestion of nudity with the werewolves — they’re constantly bursting though their clothes and then shifting back to human form miles away in well coordinated outfits. Logically, it makes no sense. It’s like the Hulk — I don’t need to see him naked, but at least acknowledge how the heck his pants always survive the change. And why Bruce Banner is so fond of purple.

153. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

“But the deleted scenes on the DVD paint an even worse picture…of a sociopath. Kirk makes love to the green girl just to get her to open an e-mail from him that will activate the program that takes down the Kobayashi Maru test. *Nice*”

That was why those scenes were DELETED. They showed James T Kirk behaving totally out of character in respect to what is already known about the younger and older Kirks.

Frankly, I doubt that Kirk was looking to get better grades by changing the KM programme. I think he did it more as a protest and to see if he could do it. He was annoyed (and bored) with the KM programme and so tested the programme’s parameters. He found a way. Unless you saw the deleted scenes, you would be left believing that Kirk managed the whole “take down” himself. It is hardly the ultimate challenge if you have to rely on another cadet to do some of your own legwork.

As far as I am concerned, the only reason they showed those deleted scenes on the second DVD was because of Chris Pine’s wonderful performance…LOL They were showcasing the actor’s talents. It is just that whoever he was playing was not James Kirk, but someone else who looked a bit like Pine/Kirk!

154. Jack - January 29, 2012

150. Yep on Trip/ T’Pol. For me it wasn’t even the fact that she was Vulcan, it was that it was all so clunky, engineered and not sexy. It felt like a decision by the writers and not much more. Kinda like…

155. Hat Rick - January 29, 2012

One thing about both ST and SW is that each franchise has divergent approaches to the whole romantic entanglement thing.

I was reading a snarky review of the SW movie franchise that said that the appearance of Mon Mothma in ROTJ proved for the first time in the SW series that there was more than one woman who existed in the entire galaxy (the primary one being Princess Leia). I thought about it and decided that, yeah, that was actually true. (The other women appeared in the second set of trilogies, the prequels that were produced much later.)

In ST, on the other hand, we have the beautiful Nurse Chapel, Yeoman Rand, and a bevy of alien and/or android beauties in addition to Lt. Uhura. However, the relationship element is not significantly greater than in SW.

Appropos of nothing in particular, but echoing the sentiments of some, I would like to see Kirk become much more serious and less of a fratboy-type in the next movie. I still remember the description of Kirk as a walking library or similar in TOS, and while he’s depicted as a bright guy in ST2009, we see less of his intellect and wile than, perhaps, we should.

Then again, he will be presumably more mature in the next movie, as he will be older.

Nor is Chris Pine going to be at risk of perpetually having to play the persona he played in “This Means War,” since he’s quite capable of playing different characters. I believe his character in that movie about a runaway train serves to prove that, although I haven’t seen the movie.

156. Hat Rick - January 29, 2012

^^ I forgot about Aunt Beru.

157. MJ - January 29, 2012

“”Come on, come on already,”

Exactly. Filming should have started 1.5 years ago. The tardiness here of the writes to get this thing done is ridiculous, and Zaldana and the original LA Times article are 100% correct.

158. Mel - January 29, 2012

Will Uhura have hair extensions or shorter hair this time?

159. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

153. Jack – January 29, 2012

150. Yep on Trip/ T’Pol. For me it wasn’t even the fact that she was Vulcan, it was that it was all so clunky, engineered and not sexy. It felt like a decision by the writers and not much more. Kinda like…

***

For me it was that she was supposed to be Vulcan but in actuality was a frigid human female.

Buddhist monks have more self control than the “alien” Vulcans of Enterprise.

160. Jack - January 29, 2012

155. lol.

And Lando was the only black guy in the galaxy.

But how many women were there in Trek ’09 who weren’t somebody’s mom or a love interest? How many were women in authority? TOS had Chapel (a nurse pining over Spock) and Rand (a potential love interest for Kirk, who made coffee and straightened the captain’s quarters) — Uhura was the only one who seemed there to do a job that wasn’t necessarily gendered (although one could argue that she was, effectively, the receptionist/ switchboard operator).

PS. I still like that Lucas (or whoever) made the bad Empire all white human males and the good rebellion was made up of multiple ethnicities (well, sort of), both genders (well, sort of) and multiple species (again, sort of). Although, the riffraff of Mos Eisley and Jabba’s Palace were most of those things too (well, multiple species).

156. Shoulda, coulda (shoulder shrug).

161. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

There was a spiritual aspect to Vulcans in TOS, what with Spock being able to mind meld and such, and then it got amplified with TMP. But those spiritual themes really took off with Leonard Nimoy in TSFS where it seems he put some of himself in the Vulcans, Nimoy being the religious person he is.

And Star Trek benefited from that. Vulcans became not just logicians but those who came to wholeness through the use of reason in a universe that was not entirely materialistic, by control of the animal appetites.

Not too many people notice this, but WE are those ancient Vulcans who nearly destroyed themselves through their passions. Yup. That’s us.

By making Spock just like one of us here and now, there is no future to look forward to! There’s no example of it to follow in the character of Spock if he is as vulnerable to the animal passions as we are, or even more so now that his world is lost.

Now there are ways to get that idea across just as they did in episodes like This Side of Paradise, where Spock temporarily loses balance, and in that way we get to explore the difference.

If the change is a permanent one, it’s not good. But if it’s in the spirit of This Side of Paradise, it could be great.

So I guess it’s wait and see.

162. Jack - January 29, 2012

158. Interesting topic though and kind of what Keachick’s talking about, I think. Do Vulcans need to have self-control in the relationship department?

Spock was emotionally unavailable (and that became a relatively frequent plot point), but are all Vulcans? Heck, so was Kirk. Sarek and Amanda weren’t shown to have any problems in that department. And Vulcans do indeed mate/bond, beyond the biologically required (?) once every seven years. Do single Vulcans need to be sexually self-restrained/celibate? Can’t they fall in love (and/or choose a mate). It seems like their unions (again, going by Sarek and Amanda) aren’t solely about procreation and child-raising… I don’t know.

I’ve said it before, but was Spock trying to be more Vulcan than most Vulcans because of his background? Was he overcompensating? Again, tough to tell from TOS canon, because the only relationships I can recall are T’ Pring and Stonn and Sarek/Amanda. The guy did try to purge all emotions, something apparently few Vulcans do. I think MJ said on another topic that this was a stretch (the suggestion that Spock was overcompensating) but, I think there’s more than a fair case to be made for it…

163. Khan was Framed! - January 29, 2012

I think this time around, we need to see the results of ST’09 playing a role in Spock & Uhura’s relationship; there is a conflict of interests in Spock being romantically involved with an officer serving under him. I think this should be hashed out.

Maybe he ends the relationship based on regulations or guilt for not mating with one of the remaining Vulcans.

Maybe we can see what happens when Uhura disobeys an order from Spock. Or how does he respond when he is forced to order her to her death for the good of the mission.

There is a lot of dramatic conflict that can arise from their relationship as it stood at the end of ST09 & I hope to see it used to good effect. Not “Anikin & Padme running through a meadow”.

As for Kirk/Spock conflict, I hope that’s dead. We got enough of that in the first movie, it would be way more interesting to see the two of them united as a leadership team, bonding over their mutual struggle to command effectively over friends & lovers.

They have this legendary friendship, let’s see it blossom.

164. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

161: “Sarek and Amanda weren’t shown to have any problems in that department.”

I think if you are going to be the wife of a Vulcan male, then you will also have to make adjustments in your expectations of what life is going to be like.

In TSFS, for example, when the young Spock is going through puberty, Saavik doesn’t soothe him by spreading her legs. They freakin touch fingers. Young Spock isn’t a horn dog ogling her tits at that point, and it doesn’t take that much to clam him down.

That’s consistent with how Vulcans were portrayed in TOS. They are different. They have different customs, different practices. And making them different is also a way of isolating aspects of ourselves to reflect them back to ourselves.

If everyone is the same, how do you do that?

165. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

clam = calm

lol! NOT a Freudian slip!

166. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@#145 dm

Giddy-up. ;-)

@#161 Jack

I think so too, and I think the movie pointed to that with the teasing scenes. I think he wanted to prove that he could be just as Vulcan as anyone else, or even moreso, but he also loved his mother and her free expression. I think that when he was insulted after being accepted into the Science Academy, he realised that he would never fully fit in and so he kind of said ‘forget this, I’ll see what Starfleet can offer.’. That is a little different from TOS Spock, who seemed to take a page from his father’s book, using a ‘logical’ Vulcan reason to hide the fact that he was going into something he really wanted to do. Doesn’t seem far fetched to me at all.

167. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

I think people make too much about Nurse Chapel’s love for Spock. There were only a couple of times where her feelings for Spock were ever shown or addressed. When I think of Nurse Chapel, I don’t ever think of her as someone who is just there pining for Spock (in fact, it’s been you *guys* reminding me actually). I’ve always seen her as an efficient nurse (a little cold, perhaps) and assistant to Dr McCoy.

The other aspect to this, and this is also in response to another poster’s comments the other day and that is the notion of somebody *just being a nurse*. Certainly, medical nursing today has changed and come a long way since the days of Florence Nightingale. That has to do with increased medical knowledge and new technologies.

However – and this is a big however – it is possible that nurses have become more like medical technicians. In so many modern hospitals around the world, there is always a shortage of nurses, which means that those who do work as nurses are run off their feet monitoring machines hooked up to patients and doing loads of computer/paper work etc, instead of actually monitoring patients which is more time and labour intensive.

Look at the definition of “nurse” – (this is something that machines can’t do)

“Nurse 1
Definition: One who nourishes; a person who supplies food, tends, or brings up; as: (a) A woman who has the care of young children; especially, one who suckles an infant not her own. (b) A person, especially a woman, who has the care of the sick or infirm.”

Question – do we want Chapel to be more of an actual nurse or more of a technician?

A female friend who was a nurse hated the trend away from nurses being able to give one on one nursing, which includes time to listen, to converse, console, or just be there for a few minutes, when nobody else can be there for the sick person. The new technology is meant to be more cost effective and more diagnostically accurate, but it cannot NURSE! “The main ingredient in nursing is being able to give lots of TLC” says my better half, NZRN until he was injured – ie tender loving care! and a NECESSARY aid for any effective healing of a patient. Both he and she are in agreement on this issue.

What I find *strange* is how so many people seem to denigrate, deride, dismiss those very things that make life even possible, sustainable and worthwhile – love relationships, sex, procreation, nursing.The only thing that some people seem to feel comfortable about or wish to exalt are platonic friendships (or gay relationships) or professions that have been traditionally male dominated and oriented – all very well, but… So, now, a man or woman can’t be a nurse, either now or in the 23rd century, it seems. They have to be more than that, as if being able to effectively nurse others is not good enough, not important enough, not relevant enough, not intellectual enough…
Nothing could be further from the truth.

Sorry for the rave. I guess you guys are used to it by now…oh well.

168. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@#14 Ryan
“What made Spock so great during the TOS years was his status as an outsider, someone struggling to come to terms with both his human and Vulcan halves. He was caught between two worlds, and preferred staying on the Vulcan side of things. Logic over emotion. It was his alienness and cold detachment that attracted a lot of fans, in particular, women.”

The only difference here with ST2009 Spock is that he seems to be trying to balance the two. I like that because that is what he is: A hybrid. Logic and emotion can both serve each other, and you don’t need two different people representing them separately to get that and to appreciate that. I think seeing Spock working to find that balance for himself and with Uhura is wonderful. It attracted me and quite a few other fans, particularly ladies I know of. Zachary’s looks didn’t hurt either. ;-)

@#21 Phil

“Come on, guys, No one has an issue with Sarek and Amanda. Why is this such a stretch?”

That’s easy to answer. It’s because they don’t threaten the precious “The Triumvirate” that some people are so into. Sarek and Amanda are far off to the side, and seeing as they are Spock’s parents, there’s no threat at all, although some people did get a little antsy at the fact that Spock loved (an emotion???!!! 8-0 ) his mother, and that she loved him back.

I guess for those that read too much into it the fact that she died has them breathing a little easier. Only just a little, though. The fact that he’s still with Uhura means that some people are still clutching their inhalers. :-/

Some people think that they could/should break up, but I think that that would be the most out of character for both of them. Spock wouldn’t go into a relationship without fully contemplating every aspect of it and what making that kind of commitment means, and I think Uhura did the same. Somebody said “solid as a rock,” yeah. That says it for me. I think they are in it for the long haul, just like Spock’s parents.

which takes me to:

@#162 dm

“I think if you are going to be the wife of a Vulcan male, then you will also have to make adjustments in your expectations of what life is going to be like.”

I love that you said this because that is exactly what happened in the movie. Uhura knows that she is with a HALF Vulcan, and so she asks “What do you need?” And he tells her that he needs her and everyone else to continue to do their jobs admirably. She nods after that to show that she accepts and supports that. So, there you go. Adjustment made. The fact that she gave him a kiss (someone she’s been seeing for quite some time) is nowhere near what you suggested (but I’d guess they might make love on occasion too) and wouldn’t have fit the moment, which is why that didn’t happen.

What is interesting to me is how much people seem to have issue with her being supportive of her boyfriend/fiance (we don’t know what the exact status of their relationship is, just that they are together) is sooooo horrible, but Bones following Kirk around unnecessarily because he wants to support his friend is okay. And please don’t say that didn’t happen. He wasn’t needed at Kirk’s hearing, and even said so in the film. He was on the bridge when he didn’t need to be their and had a job to do, but of course that’s okay because he “completes” Kirk and Spock.

And here’s the one that always got me even when I watched the film for the first time (although I overlooked it because I enjoyed the film, so no biggie), and I don’t think anyone’s mentioned it.

During the KM test, why is McCoy there? A member of medical senior staff playing around in a simulation with cadets????? Again, why? Didn’t he have a JOB to do?

I’m not knocking it, but again, no one seemed to have a problem with that, or even notice it. Funny how that works out. I wonder if anyone is going to call him a “dickwall climber” for that… :-/

And on that note, the support Uhura provides to her partner in life is during once in a lifetime catatrophic events (the death of his mother and loss of his home world). To not show up and be there for the person she loved would have been irresponsible on her part.

@ #26 Ryan

“Because Sarek was….different from Spock. Remember that Sarek and Spock didn’t have the best of relations, mainly because Spock disagreed with Sarek’s choices. Spock couldn’t understand love. But beyond that, Spock seemed to be more rigid when it came to Vulcan religion and philosophy of logic and the purging of emotion than Sarek was.

Sarek “broke the rules” of sorts, while his son was a steadfast follower of Vulcan edict.

And in this timeline, we see that Spock and his father get along quite okay. So, that’s not an issue. We see Spock actually taking advice from his father. Perhaps the fact that he has a good relationship with his father in this timeline is the reason why he’s able to try to find balance in his life as a human and a Vulcan instead of shutting of a large part of who he is.

This reminds me of a post that someone left at a comments section on another site:

It comes from a poster named Ivana:
It *was* supposed to be Spock and Uhura in the earlier version of the “Plato’s Stepchildren”, but they changed it; there are two stories about it: one is that they thought it was “braver” to have Kirk, “a white man” kiss her, because Spock is half-alien (huh?), and the other one is that Shatner insisted that, if anyone is going to be kissing Nichelle, it was going to be him. I am more inclined to believe the latter – because the first one is just stupid, and because it sounds so typical of Shatner – he even had a clausulu put in his contract that he had to have more lines per episode than Nimoy, of course he wasn’t going to let him get the publicity!

But anyway, the kisses in that episode were forced by telekinesis anyway, and neither of those people seemed to enjoy it… so it really means nothing as far as the actual feelings of those people are concerned.

And besides “Charlie X”, Uhura also flirted with Spock in “Man Trap”… or rather, she was coming onto him and he left her frustrated with her unresponsiveness. Isn’t that the only time she explicitly expressed that kind of interest in a guy in TOS (not counting the salt vampire from the same episode when it took the form of a non-existing attractive black crewmember who could speak Swahili)? Sulu/Mirror Sulu had the hots for her, but that was one-sided. The only other pairing is that awful Uhura/Scotty plot from STV:Final Frontier (where the hell did that come from?). So I really don’t understand, how is Spock/Uhura a ‘surprising’ pairing (except as much as Spock getting involved with anyone in any way was always a bit of a surprise, even rhough it happened a few times).

I always thought it was a shame that the Spock/Uhura thing was never developed more, they had really interesting chemistry, more exciting than Spock ever had with Chapel or any other female. They had few scenes together after that, although there was a deleted scene (sadly, only a screencap and script part survives) from “Elaan of Troyius” in which she asks him to teach her to play the Vulcan lyre, but there were still a few interesting moments here and there, though nothing as explicit as their early flirting. For instance, look at her face in “Mirror Mirror” when Mirror Sulu says “Is the captain here… Is Spock here? When cat’s away…” and there is that really interesting scene from “Is There In Truth No Beauty” when Spock mind-melds with Medusan Ambassador Kollos and Kollos/Spock laughs and smiles happily at everyone and addresses Kirk as “best friend for many years”, McCoy as “another long acquaintance” and then turns to Uhura and starts reciting Byron:

Kollos/Spock: “And Uhura… which name means ‘freedom’. “She walks in beauty, like the night…”
McCoy: “That’s not Spock!
Kollos/Spock: “You are surprised that I have read Byron, doctor?”
MCoy: “That’s Spock!”

Of course it was Kollos acting the way Spock would never have, but he was addressing them according to what they meant to Spock, and the Medusans did not know about language or human bodies, so I doubt Kollos would have either known Byron’s poetry, or been able to know if a human woman is beautiful… Put two and two together… ;)

I think she makes some good points.

169. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

Okay, I forgot to put quotation marks around her post, but you can tell where it begins and ends.

170. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

Oh, typos. :-/ Their should be there, and catatrophic should be catastrophic. Please just overlook future typos because I’m sure I’ll make them on this thread and I’d rather not post corrections unless they interfere with meaning.

Thanks.

171. lostrod - January 29, 2012

” … because it sounds so typical of Shatner – he even had a clausulu put in his contract that he had to have more lines per episode than Nimoy, of course he wasn’t going to let him get the publicity! ”

You know, I’ve heard this story many times. However, does anyone have any actual proof of such a contractual clause? Or is it just urban legand?

As you know, once misinformation is out there (especially in our Internet saturated world) it’s hard to correct.

Regards.

172. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@#169 lostrod

Not that #of lines was the part of her post that was the meat I was referring to, but here’s a link. Seems like he did some research, so you can ask him about Shatner and what he might have demanded.

http://startrekdom.blogspot.com/2007/05/in-shadow-of-spock-great-shatnernimoy_06.html

173. GarySeven - January 29, 2012

Clausulu? I googled it but can’t find anything. Is it related to Hikaru?

174. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@lostrod again.

It would be good to read the whole thing, but for anyone that doesn’t want to, here’s the quote:

“He had to compete with Nimoy for the spotlight, and if that meant making demands for script revisions that gave his character more lines and attention, then so be it, he likely concluded. After all, he was the star of the show. He may have been forced to share the spotlight with Nimoy, but all other characters were disposable “functions of the ship.

The bolded part is what I think speaks to why I’m not a big TOS fan. Like some TOS fans here have said outright, the theme seems to be one of exlusion, even though that’s not what the original intent was behind the creation of the series, and I could sense that. That’s sad to me.

That’s why I like ST2009′s timeline and versions of the characters better. Everyone gets included, and we get to see how people matter. No one is just an extension of the ship. They are all real people doing their jobs and not just robots there to follow orders while the captain shines. I like that. And from the looks of it, I’m not alone. :-)

175. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

#169 – Yes, I know, so very tired. I think it comes from a quote from writer Harlan Ellison who said that he saw William Shatner count the lines of his script and because he had an agenda of his own and was in a dispute with Gene Roddenberry over the City on the Edge of Forever storyline, Ellison decided to voice his presumption that Shatner was seeing if he had more speaking lines than the other actors. The rumour got started, other actors thought “yeah, that must be it”…as they say, “the rest is history”, or is it?

I have no idea whether any of it was true. Frankly, who cares. Whatever Shatner did or didn’t do and what his reasons/motivation could have been (much harder to ascertain) happened a long time ago.

I have learned that a good many people on the internet seem to prefer to rummage about and smell the dirty laundry of others, especially that supposedly belonging to actors/celebrities, than to delight in freshly washed and dried laundry. I know that predatory animals like to roll in their prey’s shit to cover up their own predator scent. I don’t think that this is what it’s about here, but it is only behaviour that I can think of that is similar.

Chris Pine was described as a “diva” (meaning overly fussy, demanding, rude) on the This Means War movie set. All I could think was “uh oh…here we go again.” All these bitchy descriptions of various actors’/celebrities’ supposed, but often unverified, behaviours have become something of a “cry wolf” syndrome. UGH!

176. Baroner - January 29, 2012

Get Shatner in this movie!!!

177. GarySeven - January 29, 2012

On a more serious note, 121. Craiger wrote:
“#120 and #92 Your Trek isn’t geared toward a general audience which is what you need for box office success. I liked TOS but to the general audience they probably find TOS boring.”
I wrote in #92 that “I missed my Trek.” I agree with #121, that JJ’s Trek,, with its Kirk/Spock fighting and cartoonish bad guys, is meant to appeal to the general audience, but that is my point. It is trying to dumb down Trek to make bucks, instead of striving to get the audience to thin. It is appealing to a lowest common denominator. I don’t need Trek to be Transformers. I need it to be Star Trek.
Here is a quote from Gene Roddenberry:
“We suspected there was an intelligent life form on the other side of the tube. We planned to use our show to signal some thoughts to them. Never in our wildest imaginings did we expect the volume and intensity of the replies that we received. Millions of replies… Thanks.” — Gene Roddenberry
I understand the franchise needed to be reinvigorated for our time, and I understand the need for change. But I don’t see JJ’s team striving to protect Roddenberry’s sensibility. I believe that slowly but surely, something very precious is being lost. I think that Zoe’s statement about the sequel having more Kirk and Spock fighting, and more “bad guys,” so it won’t be “boring”, takes us further and further from Gene Roddenberry’s statement.

178. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@ #55 Iva

“If you don’t have Nuhura running around to jump Spock again, what else is she gonna do on the ship?
What else is the point of her existence?

Her role as a communications officer on Enterprise is unnecessary, both by this universe having more advanced com. technology,
and because it is shown already that other bridge officers like Chekov can work at that station at the same time as their own – at any time and do just fine.

Just make her a space baby mama already, so we can all happily move on to important parts of story.”

And @ Iva again #70

“Not an actual top student like Chekov, Spock or Kirk with genius level intelligence and talent that goes far beyond their age group.

All of her “impressive” skills are unnecessary – she is fully replaceable by tech. and other people up to the point of not even having to actually BE there on her post.
Shown in the movie. “

Wow, here it is, “baby mama.” :-/ Sad. That is not what their relationship is about, but that’s not why I’m responding. I just want make a correction because it sounds like you either didn’t watch the film, or you forgot entire scenes that were pivotal. And she was at her post when it mattered, but here’s what I want to get at:

Ah, how can she be “fully replaceable” and “not an actual top student” when Spock said on the bridge that she was “unmatched”? That means “at the top” and “irreplaceable”, just in case you didn’t know.

To your : “”If you don’t have Nuhura running around to jump Spock again, what else is she gonna do on the ship?
What else is the point of her existence?”

Ah, how’s about saving the ship and everyone in it. Didn’t catch that part of the movie? Well, it happened at the same time that Spock said she was unmatched in her skill. Kirk tried to get Pike (the captain) to believe him when he said they were headed for a surprise attack. Pike wasn’t going to just go off of what he said as he wasn’t even supposed to be there.

That’s when Kirk asked Uhura to vouch for him as she was the ONLY one who intercepted and understood the signal (probably because she is “unmatched” in her abilities). She vouched for him, and then Spock, knowing that she had to be right because she was “unmatched” (and not because of their relationship), vouched for her. Being Pike’s First Officer making the recommendation, and not some reckless cadet who’s under suspension, makes Pike not disregard Kirk, and so he ordered shields to go up and put the ship on alert, and of course, a few seconds later, they were in the middle of what was supposed to be a surprise attack.

If Uhura hadn’t been able to decipher that signal to report it (no one else did, just her), and then vouch for Kirk when he understood what it meant, then they would have all been dead. So, she’s pretty important. ;-)

What I love about that whole interaction on the bridge is how it shows that it takes a team to make it, and we saw the team forming right then and there. :-)

@ The Writers,

if you can, I think that what some people need is a more in-your-face showing of Uhura’s importance. I think she was wonderful in the last movie, but giving her a bit more to do, perhaps on an away mission, might help.

179. MONGO - January 29, 2012

Mongo hope not offend. Mongo know some like Spock mans and Uhura ladies be together in JJ mans movie make peoples happy.

Hear Mongo out. It Mongo opinion.

When Mongo be little Mongo I watch Star Trek TV show. Kirk mans always seem get girl. It not Mongo favorite part Star Trek TV show. One time Spock mans get girl. It not Mongo favorite part TV show.

Mongo like Uhura ladies. Mongo like Spock mans. Mongo not see story need for Spock mans and Uhura ladies be romantic tied in movie. Mongo wish more independent two characters. Do own thing.

Romance just not thing Mongo look for in Star Trek. Mongo admit like more for Spock mans, Kirk mans, McCoy mans be focal point of story. Spock mans have relationship with crew member change dynamic. Seem not right feel for Spock mans character. Like movie peoples say, “It hit wrong note”.

Mongo know many peoples like Spock mans and Uhura ladies kissy. It just not Mongo thing.

Mongo hope not make peoples mad.

180. John from Cincinnati - January 29, 2012

152

There is no such thing as being out of character anymore. The writers destroyed that when they created the alternate universe. Spock is no longer disciplined as evidenced by his Uhura relationship. Remember, Chapel was all over Spock in TOS and he never succumbed. What changed him in the new universe to where he allows himself flesh?

A universe where a James T. Kirk has no father figure, never suffered the hardships (and therefore character building) of Tarsus IV, leads the new Kirk to be a horndog. These are not the same characters no matter what bantering we here from the Supreme Court. These are the new versions dumbed down for the mass audiences of the 21st century.

181. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@#173 Keachick

It doesn’t matter to me if Shatner demanded more lines or not. It was one sentence in a long quote that was entirely about something else. But, the other actors who worked on the set, if they are saying that he demanded this and that, then I don’t know. Maybe it’s true? Again, doesn’t matter to me.

As I’ve said before, the actors and their personal lives aren’t really my concern. I like the characters, and that’s what I follow most. Even with Zach and Zoe. Their work should get the attention, meaning the characters they play, and not people following their personal lives obsessively. I agree that that’s not right.

182. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@#177 MONGO

You were very respectful in stating your opinions, and I respect that, MONGO. :-) Not offended or upset at all. Thanks.

183. Jack - January 29, 2012

Hey, Keachick, I agree that nobody is just a nurse. I guess I was saying that they were gender roles for the time (although, the first pilot had a woman pilot and a woman first officer, and the second had a woman psychologist). Yes, we had a lady lawyer in one episode (which also had a woman as one of the, er, judges) and some lady scientists — and it was the 60s. So, that was something.Yes, the story is that the network had a role in limiting women in the regular cast. But still, great.

I’m not anti-procreation, or against moms, nurses, wives, love interests, receptionists or yeomans — but I think it’s troubling, in a Trek production in the 21st century to show women just in traditional roles. There weren’t many of them, other than Uhura and Gaia, and those we saw were either in short skirts or their underwear. Heck, even the people Sulu and McCoy were replacing, who are names only, were men. Most of the bit parts with lines were men. Amanda Grayson in the movie (yes, she wasn’t in a miniskirt but in a matronly gown) was a mom out of the 50s (and we know nothing about her other than that she’s a wife and mother) — and Winona Kirk was out of the picture and we’re, arguably, left to assume that she wasn’t able to raise her kids properly without her husband (and both Winona and Amanda had phDs in the novels etc., I believe). Yes, they’re characters and not symbols for gender equality but…

Am I reading too much into it? Did I spend too much time in Women’s Studies classes in university? Maybe.

I still think it was whiter than necessary too.

175. I don’t think the two — thought-provoking/smart and entertaining/exciting — need to be mutually exclusive. I still think a movie Roddenberry didn’t love — TWOK — wasn’t dumbing down Trek. Look at some great thrillers/semi-mainstream movies — the Bourne movies, Andrew Nichols’ movies, heck, a lot of Brad Bird’s stuff, Duncan Jones’ stuff that make you think/ have interesting ideas. I still think the best of Trek deals with the human condition — look at a great episode like Balance of Terror (which wasn’t preachy or hamfisted, really, at least not as much as third season eps).

Trek 09 did have heart. And it had that Trek optimism — which is important. I still think quietly showing a human society where race, creed, gender etc. etc. pose no limits is the most brilliant idea of all. Even without the black/white white/black guys, that did more to change thinking, I hope, than any speeches.

184. Jack - January 29, 2012

“Ah, how’s about saving the ship and everyone in it. Didn’t catch that part of the movie? Well, it happened at the same time that Spock said she was unmatched in her skill. Kirk tried to get Pike (the captain) to believe him when he said they were headed for a surprise attack. Pike wasn’t going to just go off of what he said as he wasn’t even supposed to be there.”

Absolutely. But it was coincidentally overheard when she was chatting with her roommate when she thought nobody else was there (and while they were both in their underwear). Did she report it? Did she tell anybody? Maybe — we don’t know. A bunch of coincidences let Kirk put it all together. And don’t get me wrong, we got tell don’t show recommendations about him too. I don’t need her to be magic, or to have impossible abilities (speaking multiple alien languages, especially aliens the federation isn’t in regular contact with, is already close to pushing it — next it will be Hoshi Sato/the professor on Gilligan’s Island figuring out brand new languages in an hour or two to help the plot move along.) Yes, the point was that she’s smart (although the descriptions weren’t entirely free of innuendo — talented tongue and aural [sounds like oral, tee hee] sensitivity) and he trusts his instincts.

And yes, this was their first adventure and was Saved by the Bell in Space as somebody mentioned earlier — so, they’re still all forming, but…

185. Jack - January 29, 2012

176. “What I love about that whole interaction on the bridge is how it shows that it takes a team to make it, and we saw the team forming right then and there. :-)”

Yeah. Absolutely true.

And yeah, i don’t want Uhura to be replaceable by a universal translator (and agree that she isn’t) and just be the Trek version of Gwen from Galaxy Quest — translating alien languages verbatim and not doing much else. I loved that in the novels she was a musician, a linguist and pretty darned skilled at breaking/writing codes.

186. Jack - January 29, 2012

Sorry for the avalanche. I’ll shut up now.

187. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

OK – This is OT (about “Shinzon and Kirk”) but I just had to share –

“Witherspoon tells Empire magazine, “We shot endings where I could end up with Tom, or I could end up with Chris, or I could end up alone… “, while Pine jokes, “Or the one where Tom and I could end up together. It’s a very progressive film.”

Pine also admits there was plenty of rivalry on the set as he and Hardy competed with one another to impress Witherspoon.

He explains, “It’s like being in the schoolyard: a beautiful girl and two red-blooded guys. It was basically a constant flirt-off – who could charm Reese and make her laugh the most… Tom won on the accent and lips front. I won on eyebrows and self-deprecation…

“Ladies love the accent and I’m not packing any heat in that department. There’d be no shame losing to Tom. If I had to lose to anyone, it’s fine if I lose to Tom Hardy. Of course, that would never happen. Ever.” »

LOL Now what’s not to love about Chris Pine?

188. Hat Rick - January 29, 2012

159 (Jack), that’s true. Most of the people in power were male, except for one of the Vulcan Elders, who might have been a priestess.

I think the appropriately distorted radio transmissions to Pike from the Enterprise dispatcher as he as piloting the shuttle toward the Narada with his strike team aboard struck me the most as being a nod to the “macho” U.S. Navy supercarrier culture of our times. I can’t hear that without being reminded of operations aboard one of our ships here in the 21st Century.

Specifically, the “macho” part I’m referring to is the “fighter jock” culture of our Navy, also visible years ago in the famous Cruise vehicle, “Top Gun.” There are, indeed, many women serving in the Navy and other armed forces, but very few of them, if any, are fighter pilots, since there was a barrier to placing women in combat. Being involved in combat is evidently a very important factor when it comes time to think about promotions, which makes it all the more difficult for women to advance in our armed services.

I understand that the Israeli armed forces have had a different policy for a long time.

Nevertheless, there are significant numbers of female commanders in the U.S. armed forces even today.

189. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

166. Spock/Uhura Fan – January 29, 2012

Spock after the effect of the Spores wore off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gMVrQ4Zq3M&feature=related

“I am what I am, Leila.” Popeye couldn’t have said it better. And all your arguments sound like Leila trying to talk Spock into being someone else.

190. Iva - January 29, 2012

162. dmduncan – January 29, 2012
In TSFS, for example, when the young Spock is going through puberty, Saavik doesn’t soothe him by spreading her legs. They freakin touch fingers. Young Spock isn’t a horn dog ogling her tits at that point, and it doesn’t take that much to clam him down.””””””””””””

Both different writes and different audience now.
If today’s youth reacts to everything by spreading their legs, Spock is going down that road too, and no amount of Gene quotes, original writers or pointing out the illogic of Abrams timeline is going to save him.

Paramount has the legal rights to do whatever they want, canon is irrelevant.

191. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

My situation here on Trekmovie reminds me of a great old tune. Sing it!

“Leilas to the left of me, Leilas to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMAIsqvTh7g

192. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

Where are you getting this garbage from that Nurse Chapel was all over Spock all the time? She wasn’t! Since when was Kirk anymore of a horndog in this movie than in the TOS series? Most people have the notion that TOS Kirk got to bed some chick in every other episode, which was not true, of course, but that is how a lot of people see the TOS Kirk character. The writers have told us very little of Kirk’s early life, so we have no idea whether he experienced the events on Tarsus IV (as in the prime universe) or perhaps experienced something similar, perhaps even worse, in this alternate timeline.

All this inaccuracy and exaggeration about what has been depicted about what characters were supposed to have been or done, either in the Star Trek 09 or the TOS series, is really starting to aggravate the hell out of me. Stick to the facts about how characters behaved!

“These are the new versions dumbed down for the mass audiences of the 21st century.”

The only dumbing down I am aware of is some of what has been written right here on this thread, this site.

193. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

I’m really sick of talking about S/U by now. It doesn’t even matter anymore. It’s written. It’s done. It is what it is. And I have so much other stuff to do, discoveries to make, and I get pulled into it. But it happens because I believe strongly. Could be worse for Star Trek I suppose that nobody cared enough to say anything.

I know I’m probably an idiot for caring as much as I do. But…”I am what I am, Leila.” And Trekmovie is my self made purgatory. One day, I’m gonna get outta this place…

Oh, BTW, that story, This Side of Paradise? Written by DC Fontana. A woman. But she wasn’t a Leila.

194. MONGO - January 29, 2012

#180 Spock and Uhura fans person

Mongo say thankee for listen what say. Mongo maybe have theory:

Mongo know that lot of people have fantasy about Star Trek characters. Not for self but character with each other. It way of fulfilling desire seeing all possibility for character and story. Some people like Kirk mans and Spock mans be together. Some people like Chapel ladies and Spock mans be together. Some people think about Spock mans and Uhura ladies be together. Some people think about Kirk mans and Uhura ladies be together. And some people just think about all be together. That might be confusing for Mongo.

Of course Mongo not count out possibility some peoples just like romance kissy story.

195. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

Here, watch Spock lose himself in Zarabeth in All Our Yesterdays. By reason of temporary (and temporally induced) insanity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ymspEhBOA&feature=related

196. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

All Our Yesterdays ALSO written by a woman. Jean Lisette Aroeste. But no Zarabeth. She too apparently realized that although it is useful to explore the character in that way, it is not who Spock normally is.

197. Jack - January 29, 2012

190. Well, I was quiet for 20 minutes. Chapel wanted Mr. Spock, i didn’t say she was all over him (although she was definately touching him in the naked time). It’s in at least two episodes, and I think more. Watched one last night (when Uhura and Kirk kiss, so do Chapel and Spock, and she says she’d wanted it all those years, but didn’t want it “like this.”).

Well, we got Kirk hitting on Uhura, Kirk ogling a bunch of ladies who walk past him and Kirk bedding Gaia. All this in a few minutes. That’s where I got horndog from. It’s all he really does onscreen in those acadamy years, other than eat an apple.

And come on, Rose, the dumbing down comment? Don’t be Sarah Pal-in and criticize everyone who disagrees with you. And I’d make the Pal-in crack of you were a dude. ;)

191. You’re right. It’s done. I get swept up in it too. I still lied Trek ’09 and thought it worked really well. Was it perfect Trek, no? What is? But it wasn’t a travesty. I dont want Bob to have read this stuff and ended up with an over-analyzed, please-the-fans flick.

198. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

“In TSFS, for example, when the young Spock is going through puberty, Saavik doesn’t soothe him by spreading her legs. They freakin touch fingers. Young Spock isn’t a horn dog ogling her tits at that point, and it doesn’t take that much to clam him down.”””””””””””””

I can’t believe I am reading this. Just because they didn’t show everything that went on between Saavik and the young Spock’s first Pon Farr does not mean that certain critical events leading to the younger Spock’s ongoing physical maturity did not occur. Remember that, at this point, it was Dr McCoy who held Spock’s katra, which I assume would be his higher, more cerebral, spiritual aspects, not this young Spock. The young Spock would be operating on his lower, more animal like instincts in order to survive.

Pon Farr was described as you either mate or fight or you die. Since there was no one for the young Spock to fight (he would not have fought David), mating was the only other alternative.

We didn’t get to see much leg spreading with green Orion girl, Gaila, either and those girls are supposed to be the sluts of the galaxy (according to some) and what’s more, those chicks are proud of it. I doubt this scene represented the first time that Gaila and Kirk had been as close and intimate, so we are left to assume that the pair engaged in certain activities involving legs and other parts of their bodies on other occasions.

199. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

Catch the disappointment at the :28 second mark of this here The Cloud Minders trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFk8ki30Zfk

200. Jack - January 29, 2012

194. Neato.

Hey, was it that (and this will be opinion) he couldn’t ever be with a woman or that he couldn’t be all laughy and affectionate. His having to be himself, I mean.

201. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

195: “I can’t believe I am reading this.”

Welcome to my world.

202. Jack - January 29, 2012

196. In Trek 3 it didn’t play like they’d just done it. When they’re found by the klingons. Even though, yes, the writing/editing did leave it open. All we actually saw was the finger thing. And no other suggestion that they’d done it.

203. Dee - lvs moon' surface - January 29, 2012

#185. Keachick…

And … What about this?… link below… I think it’s funny… :-) ;-)

http://powet.tv/powetblog/2011/11/25/captain-kirk-vs-captain-picard-in-this-means-war/

204. Go-cart Mozart - January 29, 2012

“I can’t believe I am reading this.”

There’s a simple remedy to avoid that, you know.

205. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

197. Jack – January 29, 2012

194. Neato.

Hey, was it that (and this will be opinion) he couldn’t ever be with a woman or that he couldn’t be all laughy and affectionate. His having to be himself, I mean.

***

I think it’s partly his personal identity as Mr. Logical and partly the function that a mostly logical character plays against the mostly emotional opposite of Dr. McCoy. Each of the three main characters has a philosophical dimension.

In Spock’s case, the Zarabeths and the Leilas want Spock to be the man that falls in love with and changes for them, which is the ultimate proof of how powerful their love is.

206. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

McCoy rarely gets any love, man, and he’s the most eligible of all three main characters. WTF??? If you are a doctor on modern day TV you are a wanted man by the ladies. Not in Star Trek tho!

207. Jack - January 29, 2012

203. Yeah. That sounds fair to me.

ps. I keep calling Gaila, Gaia. Oops.

208. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

Are there any main cast actors on set actually filming? Zoe is presenting a SAG award and Chris Pine is supposed to be in London. I know that is only two of the main cast. Still – just wondering.

#8 – So does undergoing the Kolinahr mean that you do not experience Pon Farr every seven years and therefore are unable to reproduce or anything? Does not make a lot of sense to me, even less, when you consider that the Vulcan planet is supposedly a hotter, drier planet, therefore less vegetation etc (less food), a much slower reproductive rate than that of human beings and yet Vulcan still had 6 billion Vulcans. I know that Vulcans can live twice as long as many humans, but even so…

The maths of all this seem to be a bit off to me…

209. VulcanFilmCritic - January 29, 2012

Keachick and Jack (multiple posts) Regarding Nurse Chapel:

First let me say that as a physician, I work with nurses every day, and they are health care professionals, just like me. Not necessarily warm and nurturing earth mothers nor cold technicians. Their bedside manner depends on their personality.

That being said, Nurse Chapel works in nursing on Star Trek, but she WAS a scientist, wasn’t she? According to Dr. McCoy, she only took up nursing to get into Star Fleet so that she could find her long-lost fiancee Roger Corby (“What Are Little Girls Made Of?”) As a scientist, I would guess that she would have more in common with Spock, than we give her credit.

As for mooning over Spock, he’s just a shipboard crush, and a rather inappropriate one at that. Even she is embarrassed to admit to him in “Plato’s Stepchildren” how inappropriate this crush is. Roger Corby was her true love. I guess she’s attracted to men with enormous…brains.

Why she’s even there is so that Gene Roddenberry could give his girlfriend a job, once Number One got the axe. I suspect she is directly lifted from “My Favorite Martian.” Mrs. Brown, the nosy but endearing landlady, had a crush on the Martian, and she was always baking him brownies (not plomeek soup.) In fact, I suspect that Spock was originally based on the character of the Martian as well. He was supposed to be a red, devilish Martian, not a Vulcan at first.

210. Jack - January 29, 2012

And now I’m just being that jerk who goes to Memory Alpha to settle arguments (and there’s no argument), but I’m only mentioning this, I swear, because I found Gerrold’s opinion interesting and hadn’t heard it before:

“In his reference book The World of Star Trek (3rd ed., p. 28), writer David Gerrold reckoned that the character of Christine Chapel “was obviously created specifically” to love Spock and went on to say, “The need to dramatize Spock’s Vulcan aloofness requires that a woman fall in love with him and be continually rebuffed. Hence, Nurse Chapel.”

Christine Chapel proved to be highly unpopular among fans of Star Trek’s original series. “It was because of her love for Spock and his occasional moments of gentleness toward her that Christine Chapel was largely disliked among the Trekkies who adored Spock,” explained David Gerrold. “Female fans saw her as a threat to their own fantasies and male fans saw her as a threat to Spock’s Vulcan stoicism.” However, the fans who met Majel Barrett were often surprised by how beautiful she was. Gerrold concluded, “They just couldn’t see it in her as Chapel because of the relationship between her and Spock.” (The World of Star Trek, 3rd ed., p. 28)”

__________

“male fans saw her as a threat to Spock’s Vulcan stoicism” — is that why some people here aren’t thrilled with Uhura/Spock?

211. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

Theoretically, the destruction of Vulcan can throw off all that Ponn Farr mating stuff indefinitely. If I was doing it that way, I’d have the vulcans going over the edge back into their ancient state of barbarity, so that the loss of their world leads to a loss of identity, and the task would be how to get back to that sense of who they were as the thing that saves them, but even in that scenario Uhura would lose him in the end. In fact, in that scenario Spock might as well begin to perceive Uhura as the most dangerous threat of all, endangering his ability to recenter himself. He might become irrational toward her, like Spock was toward Chapel at the beginning of Amok Time.

212. fedup - January 29, 2012

This romance was just thrown in because every movie I can think of has some sort of romance in it, and this one needed one before it could be “complete.” It’s poorly done and offers nothing more to the story, in my opinion. I hope Orci reads this and takes that into consideration. We don’t need lovey dovey bullshit, much LESS Pon Farr. it’s been abused enough already

213. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

207: ““In his reference book The World of Star Trek (3rd ed., p. 28), writer David Gerrold reckoned that the character of Christine Chapel “was obviously created specifically” to love Spock and went on to say, “The need to dramatize Spock’s Vulcan aloofness requires that a woman fall in love with him and be continually rebuffed. Hence, Nurse Chapel.”

That’s only part of the story. The biggest reason was that Majel Barrett was GR’s girlfriend and she was pressuring him hard to put her in the show. After the pilot episode in which she played Number One, the network brass wanted her replaced, but she kept pushing him and eventually he was able to find a way to get her in. She wasn’t a natural part of GR’s plan for the show.

214. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 29, 2012

Dr McCoy, at this stage, is “gunshy” and still smarting over his divorce. I don’t agree that he would be very eligible relationship material at all. There would be a lot of ugly rebound stuff. Not good. Give him a couple of years and time to meet some nice lady…

#199 – It would not have made sense for mating not to have taken place.

#162 – “Young Spock isn’t a horn dog ogling her tits at that point, and it doesn’t take that much to clam him down.”””””””””””””

Why should Spock ogle her tits or act like a horn dog necessarily? He did not behave like that in Amok Time, yet his needs and the consequences of not having them met were as dire as they were for the young Spock.

People seem to have such a disrespect for sexuality in general.

What’s absurd here is that everyone is debating the supposed sexuality of a make-believe alien species and yet we can’t get to grips with our human sexuality. I suspect it had to do with the prudish of the 1980′s that the whole Vulcan Pon Farr sex question was left open and unanswered. I don’t know why they even included it in the movie. Titillation, I guess. Such illogical and stupid immaturity on the part of those writing and producing TSFS.

Let’s hope the present production team can demonstrate greater understanding of human biology, show more maturity and respect when dealing with matters relating to human and/or alien sexuality.

215. Basement Blogger - January 29, 2012

We have a Mongo sighting. (177, 192) Hey Mongo I agree with your points on 177. Though romance helps the female demographic. See Twilight box office. Hey, the more money Star Trek makes, the more Star Trek..

Anyway, I asked this question on the other thread. I’m looking for an answer to this profound question. I hope you get to read it. Since you’re our favorite pawn in the game of life.

The Question:

How come God likes to talk to Pat Robertson? Trekker Stephen Colbert did a video piece on this. Link.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/405275/january-05-2012/god-s-message-to-pat-robertson

216. VulcanFilmCritic - January 29, 2012

@209. Interesting theory about Vulcans losing a sense of themselves.
OK so now we have THREE barbaric races fighting for control of the universe: the Romulans, the neo-Vulcans and presumably the Klingons. Doesn’t leave us much room for character development, though.
Oh, and I would agree that we are indeed the ancient Vulcans who almost destroyed themselves. They are a warning of what we could become if we do not deal with nuclear proliferation, global warming, etc.
But then we are the Klingons and the Romulans also. We are the Imperial storm troopers as well. They are our shadow side, and we have spent many, many hours in front of the screen trying to rid ourselves of them. We never will, of course.

217. Jack - January 29, 2012

207. Good grief. I know many nurses, male and female and they do great work. I have nothing against nurses. I said that already.

My only point with Chapel was that the women regulars on Trek were mostly in traditionally-womeny roles. It was nothing against nurses or the roles they play. Nothing against Majel Barrett or her portrayal. She brought a lot to the role.

And, yeah, she was a bio-researcher and later a doctor. And yes, there was nothing particularly damning in her love for Spock, and, you’re right, she wasn’t all over him in every episode. And, yeah, I know that Roddenberry put her in a blond wig and made her the nurse after she was rejected by the network.

But, I guess my only point in all of this was that Uhura wasn’t written as just a potential love interest and I like that. Was that because she was black and because of the time? I don’t know.

At first, all we knew about Chapel was that she liked Spock. Is there anything wrong with that? No, but there were only 3 women in the show and two were potential love interests. And two of them, and possibly all of them, were in ’60s gender roles — women were nurses, secretaries or receptionists (and maybe teachers). Again, I get that’s how TV, especially in the 60s worked. But this isn’t the 60s now. And, again, nothing against nurses or yeomans or people with crushes on Vulcans, but I liked that Uhura wasn’t defined by a relationship to the male characters — she was a person doing her job.

Heck, and even then Nichelle Nichols wanted to leave because she was doing nothing but opening hailing frequencies.

I don’t think many would argue that, although it had progressive elements, there were still sexist views of women in TOS. It was of its time.

And in Trek 2009, the women were in traditionally-womeny-roles. The fashions may be from the 60s, but why do all the female roles need to be.

Instead of three women, we now have one — and both leads are into her.

PS. I love nurses.

218. Iva - January 29, 2012

After all the bull with random actors trying to get a bigger role, threatening to leave, paramount shitting over it being “too cerebral”, lack of funding, various writers pushing their own agenda after Gene left, how much of it is really the ST it was meant to be, in the end.

219. Jack - January 29, 2012

“Such illogical and stupid immaturity on the part of those writing and producing TSFS.”

What?

I’m no prude, Keachick. But not putting bare boobies and buttocks in a Star Trek movie isn’t about repression to me. But you’re right, I don’t see this fitting in Trek — maybe it’s because I first watched it when I was 4 or 5. Maybe I am a prude…

212. Exactly. I wish I could be so concise.

220. Daoudq - January 29, 2012

…and on this week’s episode of Jersey ShiKahr…
.
Spocki and The Communication (N. Uhura) get in a major argument….
.
I think I’d rather watch T’Pringtime for First Officer….

221. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

214: “People seem to have such a disrespect for sexuality in general.”

Oh come on. Sexuality is everywhere. Seems to me that not having sex is the thing to make fun of these days, and we are paying a price for our simplistic single-mindedness in the culture right now. You can’t escape sex. Via_gra commercials. Le_vitra commercials. Sex used to sell chldren’s toys.

I recall even as a child that I thought there was something wrong with adults because from watching TV it seemed to me that sex was constantly on their minds, while as a kid I was having a wonderful life without any sex at all.

And now that I’ve grown up, I concur with my younger self. I was right.

Sex is a part of life and like anything we touch, capable of leading to rather than away from our own discontent, if abused. And logic — reason — is the thing, represented by Spock, which helps us to know the difference between use and abuse, by EXAGGERATING the alternatives before us, and showing us that we can actually live fine without it…most of the time, anyway.

That’s also partly what lies behind Spock being the spiritual figure in the franchise.

222. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

Memo to room: Vi_agra and Le_vitra without the underscore will disappear your post.

223. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

216: “@209. Interesting theory about Vulcans losing a sense of themselves.
OK so now we have THREE barbaric races fighting for control of the universe: the Romulans, the neo-Vulcans and presumably the Klingons. Doesn’t leave us much room for character development, though.”

In the vulcans’ case it would be a temporary setback and a means of showing us the difference between vulcans then and now, in much the same way that Spock temporarily devolved into barbarism in All Our Yesterdays, but on an epic scale.

It’s a fight that the vulcans would have to win, reachieiving all their past victories over the passions in the space of one movie.

224. boborci - January 29, 2012

Unintended typos are okay, but lets all remember that “punctuation gies within the quotes!”

And “not the other way around”.

225. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

218. Iva – January 29, 2012

That’s a teleological AND an ontological question at the same time!

My thoughtful answer after a lifetime so far spent asking those questions? All of it. :-)

226. Red Dead Ryan - January 29, 2012

#224.

“Unintended typos are okay, lets all remember that “punctuation gies within the quotes!” ”

“gies”?

You sure have the flair for irony!

227. boborci - January 29, 2012

Unintended typos are okay, but lets all remember that “punctuation goes within the quotes!”

And “not the other way around”.

228. Royal Canadian Institute for the Mentally Insane - January 29, 2012

The Spock/Uhura thing is fine, but I think it’s come at the sacrifice of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic. This isn’t an episodic series; it’s movies, so there’s a lot more to tell in much less time. But I’d really like to see more of the classic friendship trilogy come up than smooch time b’tw Spock & Uhura.

229. Red Dead Ryan - January 29, 2012

#227.

Don’t you just hate those damn typos? :-)

230. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

Hi Bob! I keep getting myself into these S/U messes! Help! ;-)

231. boborci - January 29, 2012

If you think Uhura was sexualized because that is all we could think of to make her relevant, then you are having sexist thoughts for not wondering the same about Spock;)

232. Red Dead Ryan - January 29, 2012

BTW, I just saw the Liam Neeson horror/thriller movie “The Grey”. Great flick. Lots of suspense, great story, solid acting, characters and drama. Liam Neeson gave a great performance as a grieving husband trying to come to terms with his wife’s death, all the while as he and several other guys try to survive in the frigid Alaskan woods against not only the inhospitable winter landscape, but also ferocious grey wolves after the plane they were travelling in crashed.

One of the finest performances by Liam Neeson.

233. boborci - January 29, 2012

Reminds me of the sexism inherent in blaming Yoko Ono for the break up of the Beatles.

234. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

214: “Why should Spock ogle her tits or act like a horn dog necessarily?”

In the context of that scene of TSFS, Spock was going through puberty, or his first Ponn Farr. I went through the former, so I know what it feels like. I was exaggerating her options, of course. My point was that Vulcans do things differently. If an older attractive woman was touching my fingers like that when I was in puberty, that gesture would probably have had a very different meaning to me as a human, than it had between Spock and Saavik.

235. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

I wasn’t that interested in Uhura/Spock but it didn’t annoy me either.

I’m interested in seeing a more seasoned crew and perhaps a more restrained adventure: more adult. I’m fully aware that the 2009 film was dark, but it still had a youthful ‘zing’ to it – an almost ‘college movie’ feel. It was cool, but for me I’d like the second movie to be a little more sedate.

Think: Shatner was congratulated for his restrained performance as Kirk in Star Trek VI. Yeah, the character was much older, but my point is I’d like the years passage to be reflected in this film.

I have high hopes.

236. Basement Blogger - January 29, 2012

@ 233

Bob Orci,

Are you posting from the SAG Awards? :-) Because if you are, ask Jessica Chastain if she’s a Trekker. Read that she dressed up as Spock at a Halloween party.

237. NCM - January 29, 2012

dmduncan, you’re usually a tempered voice here, with well reasoned and unique arguments. Don’t go; just, maybe, know when to take a break. We vigorously hashed and rehashed S/U ad nauseum on another thread, recently. I’m still checking in here for the not uncommon interesting ideas, thoughts, reminders, and links (much of which you’ve provided).

I think it’s clear that nuSpock will be somewhat different, but will strongly resemble the green blooded alien we adored. Didn’t Sarek counsel Spock that ‘the need was sufficient’ (even for a Vulcan) to lose control?

NuTrek clearly embraces a sense of destiny at work in the lives of these young, already historic figures. While the writers need to plot a somewhat different course, they must also maintain a connection to TOS and I can’t see this team depriving nuSpock of the struggle and journey that defined him, made him an iconic figure; and that which Nimoy is still speaking about, today.

Sadly, I think they writers will feel the need to gloss over the destruction of Vulcan, for now, to get into a new story for the sequel. But I am very hopeful that some fine novelist will be given the opportunity to explore the repercussions–to the Vulcan race, the Federation, balance in the galaxy, etc…, after the sequel airs.

238. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

A thought:

Vulcan, while deeply important in the Star Trek universe, was not often seen. How many episodes, indeed, were set on Vulcan? How deeply was Vulcan culture explored out with an extremely limited set of characters? (Most minor.)

For this reason alone, the loss of Vulcan won’t affect screen time at all. After all, how often would the crew have ended up there?

As for glossing over it: that depends on how many years are meant to have gone by. Folk can get over anything with the passage of time: world wars, etc.

239. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

237: “Don’t go; just, maybe, know when to take a break.”

You are right.

240. lemrick - January 29, 2012

231. boborci

“If you think Uhura was sexualized because that is all we could think of to make her relevant, then you are having sexist thoughts for not wondering the same about Spock;)”

Agreed. Kinda went into cricket-mode after you wrote this, huh?

241. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@#220 Daoudq

I’d rather watch “Jersey ShiKar” than The Bachelor: Bromance Edition.

‘Bones and Scotty get a rose, but will Spock? Sulu seems to think he has a chance. Kirk only has One…Rose…Left… Tune in to see what happens!’

Yeah, I’d rather not. ;-)

@#184 Jack

It’s very likely that she at the very least logged it as I would guess that logging any anomaly would be required. Just thinking of structure, it would also only make sense that it was someone’s job to go over those logs. I can’t remember if she said she reported it or not, though. And even if she did, that doesn’t mean that it would get to Pike, as it didn’t.

On the ‘coincidence’ thing, well that’s how these things often work. There were a lot of coincidences in the movie, but for me it all worked and that’s all I care about.

@#185

Same here, and that’s why I’d like to see her get a little more individual development. :-).

242. Iva - January 29, 2012

Except that Spock has a whole life in the movie outside of getting jumped, while Nuhura is there only as a kling-on.

Naughty student getting benefits for getting down on her teacher stereotype.
Galia – another objectified woman.
Amanda and Kirk’s mother – just there for their uterus.

#men talking about sexism #smooth

243. boborci - January 29, 2012

242 “men talking about sexism…”

Another sexist comment. Keep ‘em coming!

244. Iva - January 29, 2012

way to avoid answering

245. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

242 “men talking about sexism…”

I cringed.

246. Daoudq - January 29, 2012

@242. Men? I thought we were all androgynous post-gendered beings… kinda like Gabriel in Constantine.

@Sexualization. Anyone remember one of the key points Mike Judge made in Idiocracy? What a classic. In time, everything is sexualized in some fashion (pun intended) or another. Will Uhura get sleeves in the sequel? Will Spock wear a sleeveless tunic that has no pants?

@241. S/U fan… really, I think I’d rather watch Jersey ShiKahr too, because I’d love for Snooki to encounter a sehlat on her Kahswan tour to the Plateau of Gol. :) Love your Bachelor: Bromance Edition 1701 idea.

I’m thinking S/U deserves a nursery rhyme revision that would end…
…And the Dish ran away with the Spork.

247. Jack - January 29, 2012

Come on, you don’t buy the rgument that not getting the romance is sexist. i’m not blaming Uhura for it. Sexualising her wouldn’t be a problem if nearly every chick in the movie wasn’t either somebody’s mom or a sexual object, and not much more, at least on the page. And, heck, it’s not a problem, the sexualising alone. And Spock wasn’t just the hot guy everybody was after, ie the male version of Uhura. Was he sexualised, other than apparently being interested in it (and/or love/romance)? I don’t know. And some here are indeed griping about Spock’s part in it.

All I’m saying is put more chicks in your next movie. ;). Just a measely lady admiral (with lines) or something.

241. Agreed. But it’s all guessing, which is fine. And, yeah, I was quibbling. She absolutely was part of the somewhat accidental, incredibly lucky (or was it destiny again?) group effort that saved the ship. But the team forming was indeed the key part of all that.

And, yep. I get that the guys here are mostly the ones arguing that the SU scenes don’t quite fit, whilethe gals seem to be all for it.

248. boborci - January 29, 2012

244. “Except that Spock has a whole life in the movie outside of getting jumped, while Nuhura

As was the case in the original. Her relationship with Spock elevated her to the level of the original trio. She was everything she ever was in TOS and MORE by sharing her affection withthe miral center of the show, and not the playboy Captain.

As for Gaila, I suppose any woman who ever slept with a guy in college is an objectified woman? And why isn’t Kirk an objectified man in that scene? What is the difference between them that makes her the object?

Amanda and Kirks’s mother: what is your gripe there? Screen time? The most emotional scene in the movie is Kirk’s mother giving birth, followed closesly by Spock losing Amanda, the woman who accepted him even if he pursued the purging of his human side. And Nero himself goes nuts because of the loss of his wife.

Essentially, you are reaching and griping for other reasons whuch only you can discern.

Now that ive answered, your turn to respond to 243.

249. Iva - January 29, 2012

“…while the gals seem to be all for it.”

please, don’t insult. Being a woman does not by default make you a vapid person.
There’s quite a lot of us here asking for substance over this mess.

250. boborci - January 29, 2012

Correction “moral center of the show…”

251. Daoudq - January 29, 2012

@247 Was the Doctor on the Kelvin a sex object or somebody’s mom?

252. Iva - January 29, 2012

@247. Jack – January 29, 2012

Exactly.

253. Daoudq - January 29, 2012

@248/250. Ah-hah! The Miral Center…. so, you’re going to put the Klingon mother of B’Elanna Torres in? Cool beans. First you give up Q, and now Miral!
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Miral
I keed. Typos я us!

254. Jack - January 29, 2012

246. Lol! Awesome.

Hell, Bob, sexualise away. Get ‘em all on the bridge in that scene from Hair, even. But give us a little, er, meat too. Characterwise.

249. Okay, not all. Sorry. Just Keachick.

255. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@#231, 233

Thank you. And please know that I am not attacking Kirk, Spock, Bones being friends thst work together, it’s just some of the other stuff and the double standards I can’t take. I just get tired when if it’s an article about someone else, this is either not an issue or it’s not as much of an issue, but when it’s Zoe/Uhura there are always these mean posts about the character and the actress. It doesn’t make sense to me.

@# 189

Dm, thank you for the link. It basically shows that Spock did feel something for the girl. When he told her she couldn’t pronounce what else he’s called, he smiles at her and fondly touches her face. Then there’s the reference to his self made purgatory. He’s saying he made a commitment to that ship and “that man on the bridge” and that he will follow through with that because that’s who he is – a man of his word.

In this timeline, Spock made his commitment to ‘that woman hailing frequencies’ first, and, as I said before, it would be in character for him to keep it and the most out of character for him not to. He is in love, that’s also who he is in this timeline.

Instead of purgatory, I think he’s free. Making the committment to rebuild the Vulcan colony would have bern this Spock’s self made purgatory, and I think that’s why Prime Spoke told him to go, to not only enjoy the same friendships he enjoyed, but to also have the love he never had. I think that’s just beautiful, and I don’t mind being called Leila for that. I don’t think she was trying to change him from what I saw in that scene. She was simply grasping at something that sort of disappeared for them both. She said she could feel it, snd that’s when he told her why and how the effects were wearing off. But, still, they shared what looked to be a genuine fondnesd for each other: Beautiful. :-)

@#242

Oh, whatever, Iva.

#Someone who couldn’t catch the basic plot points of the last film complaining about it being a ‘dumbed down’ film. #Even smoother. :-/

256. Jack - January 29, 2012

251. Lol. I mentioned her earlier.

257. DeShonn Steinblatt - January 29, 2012

Let’s be clear. Trekkies are not sexless prudes by choice.

Let’s be equally clear. No one here thinks Iva/Jeyl is female.

258. Go-cart Mozart - January 29, 2012

Well, I think this thread has provided the perfect tagline for the new movie:

STAR TREK
“Get your tongue outa my mouth,
cuz I’m kissin’ you goodbye!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00ILfCzJiWQ&feature=related

259. NCM - January 29, 2012

247. Jack – January 29, 2012:

“…while the gals seem to be all for it.”

Don’t lump all us gals into one bucket, Jack:)

260. Jack - January 29, 2012

253. You keepin’ the q until Bob adds another letter to the end of his name?

261. Hat Rick - January 29, 2012

I just love it when folks use stereotypes in a thread about how people are objectified or not objectified. The irony is delectable.

Can we at least agree that stereotypes, whatever their utility, are ultimately more harmful than not?

I think that there were few choices during the 1960′s for women to be depicted as commanders without being involved in some kind of romantic relationship. Case in point: “Goldfinger,” the Bond film. The villainess in that film, Pussy Galore, was a thinly veiled lesbian, apparently, whose sexuality was turned by the sheer masculinity of one 007. In TOS, the female Romulan commander in “The Enterprise Incident” was seemingly mostly interested in romance with Spock rather than her duties of command. And, famously, “Turnabout Intruder” told us by the world of starship captains that had no room for women. (Whose world, by the way?)

This topic is far too complicated to be neatly categorized into sexist versus nonsexist depictions of the relations between men and women.

I personally think that ST2009 gave us an interesting take on TOS with a distinctly postmodern view of the relationship between the sexes. That is, the point of feminism is not necessarily to advance one view of the roles of men and women over another, but to allow individuals to positively advance their own beliefs without the imprisonment of societal expectations. This is admittedly a more difficult path to take on the part of all, and fraught with perils, but it is a freer one than either the traditional mindset or the “liberal” beliefs that conservatives like to criticize.

262. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

255. Spock/Uhura Fan – January 29, 2012

Oops. You missed it. Spock didn’t say “I gave the word I gave, Leila.” He said, “I am what I am, Leila.” Under the effect of the spores and his emotions, Spock was abandoning the ship and his responsibility. It wasn’t that he suddenly realized he had a duty to Kirk, regardless of his verbal and gestural kindnesses to Leila, it was that he no longer felt the same way without the uninhibiting effect of the spores, whereas before he didn’t CARE about his responsibility, confirming everything I’ve said about the importance of logic over emotion in the identity of the character.

It wasn’t a case of Spock realizing he’d been a jerk and had to keep his word. It was much deeper than that. I had just assumed you saw the entire episode and knew all this.

With the effects of the spores disappearing, he was, in other words, coming back to his normal identity as the aloof Vulcan who did not engage in emotional or affectionate behavior. Spock’s normal state of mind is one of emotional inhibition that makes PDA highly unlikely, which is actually consistent with ST.09 and the transporter scene, since he is both younger in the movie and he had just lost his world and mother, providing in those things extraordinary causes for un-Spock-like behavior.

That’s true of every episode where Spock had some romantic affiliation, even in the most bizarre case of The Cloud Minders where Droxine gets all worked up — and no rose to show for it!

I LOVE This Side of Paradise. One of my faves. So sad. Yet beautiful in its sadness, too.

263. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

I mean the love Leila has for Spock is very touching, and so is Spock’s kindness to her. How much Spock feels deep down and how much self control he must have. Great stuff.

That whole episode rocks, especially Kirk pissing Spock off and making him attack. Probably seen it 50 times over the years.

264. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

Actually, The Cloud Minders was in one respect an exception, so I’m wrong there. Spock was indeed acting un-Spock like without any obvious cause — yet he STILL left Droxine high and dry — literally, since she was in a cloud city! Very strange episode. But loved Charlene Polite as Vanna. Sadly, no longer alive. Beautiful woman. Good actress.

265. NCM - January 29, 2012

248. boborci – January 29, 2012

“Her relationship with Spock elevated her to the level of the original trio.”

—-Which confirms Jack’s point.

“She was everything she ever was in TOS and MORE by sharing her affection with the moral center of the show.”

—-…Again…; but I’m glad Spock represents the moral center in this universe–wait ’til Bones hears:)!

“As for Gaila… an objectified woman? And why isn’t Kirk an objectified man in that scene? ”

—-She’s a tool for Kirk. After serving her purpose, she’s out of the picture; whereas Kirk commands many more scenes and owns a much bolder future.

“Amanda and Kirks’s mother…”

—-I know no better role in real life than to be a great mom; but in the movies…? What else do we know of Winona and Amanda?

“…And Nero himself goes nuts because of the loss of his wife.”

—Again, a woman defined by her relationship to a powerful man.

I think a point you may be choosing to miss is the fact that some people, men and women, would like to see women have greater prominence and relevance in the movie, beyond traditional roles. No one’s knocking parenthood or aural sensitivity. Make Uhura a communications officer first and foremost, maybe. Send her on away missions as an expert not only in linguistics, but in the many non-aural forms of communication –body language (let her practice with Spock off camera:). She might be an indispensable crew member in her own right.

266. Anthony Pascale - January 29, 2012

As I have said before, the role of Uhura in the Star Trek 2009 film was pivotal in relation to the arc of Kirk. Pine’s James T. goes from Jerk to Kirk and each step of the way, Uhura is there noting where he is on that journey. The three key points are:
- Kobayashi Maru simulation
- When Kirk takes command of the ship
- The final scene when they prepare to leave for their mission

See how Uhura talks to PineKirk at each juncture, disdaining him and refusing to call him Captain at the KM, (somewhat skeptically) telling him “I hope you know what you are doing” when he takes command, and confidently saying “yes, Captain” when they are preparing to depart at the end.

She is the proxy for the audience who dont trust him at the beginning, but grow to respect him.

Far more than just arm-candy for Spock.

All in all I thought that Star Trek 2009 gave Uhura, Chekov and Sulu more to do than most of the TOS films

267. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

Just have to say:

I found the comments regarding sexism laughable and at times, embarrassing.

When your argument becomes illogical and relies on desperate, inherently self-discrediting notions, the best idea is to give up – lest you find yourself becoming the very cliche you complain of.

268. Iva - January 29, 2012

@266

Having an attitude, beside being a common black woman stereotype, is a personality thing – it does not make you more or less important, just somebody with an attitude.

269. boborci - January 29, 2012

265. Dont be dense, the movie is about Kirk and the orignal crew. Essentially, you are arguing that the dorm room scene is sexist because it is told from Kirks point of view as opposed to the movie being about the on going adventures of Gaila.

What else do we know about Winona and Amanda? Let’s see. We know Winona managed to be in Starfleet AND raise a family. We know Amanda made a difficult choice to move to a planet and join a culture that did not accept her, all the while accepting her son who chose the very culture that rejected her.

270. boborci - January 29, 2012

268. Way to avoid answering.

271. boborci - January 29, 2012

268 and i love how you threw racism into this last comment. Why not add speciesist to the mix while you’re at it for having Uhura go for an alien instead if a human.

272. Hat Rick - January 29, 2012

I think Anthony makes a great point. Uhura is a mind of sorts to Kirk — sort of his surrogate parent, since his real parents are missing.

It’s instructive that Kirk’s real mother is off-planet during the times of his youth. Uhura — also off-planet during much of the events of ST2009 — is, in some ways, something of a substitute. Uhura and Spock are something of parental figures that Kirk must supererogate in order to achieve his best self. If I were a Freudian, I would take this further, but I won’t, because I’m not.

If this Uhura-as-mother-figure is intentional on the part of the writers, then I think it’s a brilliant turn of plot. Bravo.

273. Iva - January 29, 2012

@265. NCM – January 29, 2012

“Her relationship with Spock elevated her to the level of the original trio.”

—-Which confirms Jack’s point.

“She was everything she ever was in TOS and MORE by sharing her affection with the moral center of the show.”

—-…Again…; but I’m glad Spock represents the moral center in this universe–wait ’til Bones hears:)!

“As for Gaila… an objectified woman? And why isn’t Kirk an objectified man in that scene? ”

—-She’s a tool for Kirk. After serving her purpose, she’s out of the picture; whereas Kirk commands many more scenes and owns a much bolder future.

“Amanda and Kirks’s mother…”

—-I know no better role in real life than to be a great mom; but in the movies…? What else do we know of Winona and Amanda?

“…And Nero himself goes nuts because of the loss of his wife.”

—Again, a woman defined by her relationship to a powerful man.

I think a point you may be choosing to miss is the fact that some people, men and women, would like to see women have greater prominence and relevance in the movie, beyond traditional roles. No one’s knocking parenthood or aural sensitivity. Make Uhura a communications officer first and foremost, maybe. Send her on away missions as an expert not only in linguistics, but in the many non-aural forms of communication –body language (let her practice with Spock off camera:). She might be an indispensable crew member in her own right.””””””””””””””””””””””””””

Co-sign.

274. Hat Rick - January 29, 2012

Erratum: The word “mind” in my last comment should have been “minder.”

275. Jack - January 29, 2012

261. Which is basically saying it looks sexist but it isn’t. It’s postpostmodern! Come on, this is Star Trek we’re talking about — this is kind of what it’s about.

What stereotypes? Is this the nurse thing again?

There wasn’t a lot of detail to any of the characters, even the mains. It worked with the pacing of the last flick. But, yeah, I felt a lot of charcters were underdeveloped. As in, i would have liked to know just a tiny bit more. Like Nero. But, I’m also thrilled that it wasn’t talky and pedantic and full of clunky messages.

These are merely my views. I would have liked more women in it. Heck, even just giving us a female helmsman (I know) who Sulu was replacing. And more non-WASP names. And more ethnicities. All of which TOS and, especially, its pilots did. And you can argue that we’re past tokenism and affirmative action, but, come on. The bulk of this planet’s population is not white guys. Heck, my 1980s suburban junior high school was more multiethnic than the new Enterprise.

And also, I hope Bob’s not taking any of this here (or on anythread) too seriously. Don’t ever change things to pander to any of us — critics liked the last one and so did the general public. And, yep, we damn it here as “fun, watchable…” (which was funny because it’s true). We’d be debating all this stuff if Roddenberry himself had made Trek ’09 and every scene had Shat in it.

I like to chat here because it gts me thinking about a lot of these issues, beyond Star Trek. And I often reallize how full of crap I am.

276. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 29, 2012

@#262

Ooops, you missed that I didn’t miss it. I know that the spores wore off, but when they did, he still had a fondness toward her, you know, something that pure ‘cold logic’ would not have necessitated. So, putting two and two together, even in his natural state there were emotions he was hiding or suppressing. Maybe not her, but I think he did have a desire or at the very least a curiosity for and about loving someone in that way.

People try to say that he was aloof when it came to the concept and reality of love. I don’t buy that because he had to love Kirk in order for them to be best friends. So there is at least some point of reference when it comes to loving someone long-term.

Of course it wasn’t just about keeping his word. You are mistaking the symptom for the cause. He kept his word because he was a person of integrity; the ship had become his home, and he had made the decision to follow a certain path long ago. Kirk and Starfleet were a part of that path while Leila was not. Conversely, I don’t think that he was really a part of her path either, but it was nice that they shared a fondness for each other.

As for seeing all of the episodes – nope. My mother is the TOS trekker. So in our family, TOS is quite literally ‘mama’s Star Trek’ (reference to a discussion I had with someone else here). ;-)

@#263

Now it seems like you understand what I was getting at, I think.

Anyway, goodnight. :-)

277. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

Iva, you’re a real wind up merchant aren’t you?

278. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

@Bob

I take it you can agree that serious, long running romance has never been a major focus of Star Trek (movies and TV shows)?

Sure it existed in the shows and movies, but it was never as prominent as it was in, say, Star Wars.

Basically I’m assuming you were respecting Star Trek’s ‘style’ when developing the S/U romance?

279. Iva - January 29, 2012

@ 277. FrancoMiranda
Iva, you’re a real wind up merchant aren’t you?””””

I do have family in the merchant navy, but the cargo ships aren’t wind powered any more… why?

280. boborci - January 29, 2012

278 youd be wrong given that what you call a long standing romance took up about 120 seconds on the movie.

281. Hat Rick - January 29, 2012

275 (Jack), I enjoy reading your messages. I wasn’t aiming my comment at your contributions. Rather, I want to focus attention on the fact that polarization on traditional feminist-anti-feminist axes doesn’t really work in Trek. For one thing, we are comparing episodes and movies that span nearly half a century, and particularly involving a time when society was changing rapidly, and self-consciously — the ‘Sixties.

I do agree with you that what appears sexist does not have to be interpreted that way. For example, there are those who say that some women would actually like to have doors opened for them these days — not because they need it done, but because they know that the man (or woman) who does that for them are themselves, by this time, aware of the critique against the role previously assigned to them and to the women for which they are doing so, and are doing so nonetheless out of a sign of respect.

I think that much of what I have termed postmodernism is simply a recognition that once one battle has been fought, one can enjoy that fruits of that battle without feeling afraid that one has relapsed into some form of recividistic medievalism. The world is greater than any one ideational polarity would suggest. And Trek is plenty smart enough to understand and express that in new and interesting ways.

282. boborci - January 29, 2012

280. And those of you complianing would have preferred to take those important and impactful minutes away from Uhura.

283. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

265: “—Again, a woman defined by her relationship to a powerful man.”

Actually, speaking as a man, I’d say that Nero going nuts over the loss of his wife is Nero being defined by his relationship to a woman.

And I don’t think any of this is bad, man or woman being defined by their relationships to each other because that is reality. It doesn’t make us less human because we each define ourselves in relation to something different.

What’s bizarre is this idea that we should each be defined in a vacuum against nothing but what we do. How is that even possible?

I came into the world through a woman and will always be defined in some important and impossible to ignore way by that fact.

We need each other. That is not shameful or embarrassing to me.

284. boborci - January 29, 2012

279. Way to avoid answering 243 yet again.

285. Anthony Pascale - January 29, 2012

Iva

you are done here. You are just trolling at this point, picking fights where there are no fights. crying racism and sexism, etc.

Find a new way to post or a new site to post on but all you are doing here is trying to rile people up.

286. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

276: “he still had a fondness toward her”

So what? That’s not a relationship. Nor is that a surprise. Spock is not a machine, he’s a creature with emotions. We always knew that. How he handles them is very different from humans.

287. boborci - January 29, 2012

285. It’s your web site, but I dont mind!

288. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

280. boborci – January 29, 2012

You misread me, I’ll be clearer:

I asked if you were respecting Star Trek’s previous style by keeping the romantic scenes brief in Trek 2009.

I was curious to know how much previous Trek convention affected the writing, that’s all.

289. Anthony Pascale - January 29, 2012

Bob,

knock yourself out if you like.

I am done with her and if she tries to derail another thread with ridiculous crap she’s gone

but i will let this thread continue for those that want to feed this troll

Tony out

290. boborci - January 29, 2012

288. Oops! My bad. Answer is YeS!

291. boborci - January 29, 2012

Tony,

Just dont want you to be accused of sexism;)

292. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

@boborci

Ah, cool.

I rarely post on here, only reason I’m awake is I was beaten up two nights ago and can’t sleep due to stitches on my head, haha.

Didn’t expect to be discussing Trek with you at 6.20am. It’s cheered me up a great deal, can’t wait to tell my Dad tomorrow. He’ll be amazed.

293. boborci - January 29, 2012

292. What?! That sucks! So sorry! Where are u that it is 620. Feel better, friend!

294. Hat Rick - January 29, 2012

Once again, Bob Orci gives us a nugget of information about the new film! It took 289 postings, but there it is! :-)

In any event, understatement may be the new cutting edge these days. What is left undepicted might be, and often is, much better viewed in the theater of the mind.

(Except for starship battles, of course. ;-) )

I love this site!

295. Jack - January 29, 2012

281. Yeah, no, good point. I get that the 60s was different and, also, that Trek 09 was looking back to the 60s. But even then, the first pilot had a female helmsman and a female first officer. There were female scientists, historians, lawyers, starfleet higher-ups.

I guess I was trying to say that trek did it well for the ’60s, and it ain’t the ’60s anymore. I’ve said enough, I’ll sit back and listen.

285. Well, we’ve kind of been having a long talk about all this. Are we all crying racism and sexism? I hope not. It’s been an interesting conversation. This isn’t about bashing Bob or his movie.

296. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

@boborci

I’m in Scotland! I was out with my cousin for his birthday and someone just went for me, never saw it coming. But hey, such is life.

Thanks, I’ll be fine in a couple days! My beautiful girlfriend is traveling from America to see me next week, so that’ll cheer me up.

(We met through school and have been long distance for 3 years. Still it meant I got to see Trek 2009 in America, which was awesome.)

297. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

276: “As for seeing all of the episodes – nope. My mother is the TOS trekker.”

LOL! That’s no better than arguing the content of a book that you haven’t read with someone who has read it. You’ve just been pretending to know more than you do.

298. Anthony Pascale - January 29, 2012

running this site i have been accused of being a communist, anti-liberal, a pervert, anti-gay, a tool of the gay agenda, a sexist, an elitist, anti-Star Trek (fill in the series), anti-Shatner…and other various things. I think I was also just accused of being a racist…so I can tick that off by bingo card.

I get used to it.

299. boborci - January 29, 2012

FrancoMiranda

So an interesting tid bit, I hope, wether anybody liked Uhura/Spock or not is that, though we ran most of our outline by JJ, Alex and I did not tell him we were going to make them an item. We let that be a surprise to everyone in the script. JJ later said those scene were key to his decision to direct the movie.

300. boborci - January 29, 2012

296. Glad you are okay. Dont take all your pain kilkers at once;)

301. boborci - January 29, 2012

298 the communist thing, i understand.

I Keeeeeeed!

302. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

@boborci

That’s really interesting: I often wondered what his attitude to those scenes would have been upon reading the script. The fact it was a surprise, and indeed, a positive one, is telling. Thanks for sharing that!

303. Iva - January 29, 2012

285. Anthony Pascale – January 29, 2012
crying racism and sexism, etc.

I’m sorry but – ST is both racist and sexist compared to other SF shows. I am not “crying” anything by bringing that up. It has been discussed for years now.
If you want to keep things as they are, good for you. Just you. But we have a right to complain and demand better.

304. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

@boborci (300)

The pain killers here are nowhere near as good as they are in the USA =(

OH BTW, I was wearing a Star Trek t-shirt when it happened, haha! What are the chances of that eh?

305. boborci - January 29, 2012

304. Must’ve been a deranged star wars fan that jumped ya!

306. NCM - January 29, 2012

@269: I meant no offense and I haven’t said the film is sexist (I’ve hardly given the notion a thought). I’ve no interest in Gaila’s future, and little in Uhura’s. I was only making the point that even you seem to have difficulty defining any of the women’s roles except within relation to the men, and that much of what fuels these debates is sentiment for more relevant roles for women. Does that seem unreasonable?

To many, I think, it’s more about updating Trek to resemble the future we think we’re heading toward than it is about sexism, political correctness, whatever…

307. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

@bob

You never know. And people think this forum can get rough…

308. boborci - January 29, 2012

303. Compared to what? And you still havent answered for 243.

309. boborci - January 29, 2012

306. As DMDUNCAn pointed out, most of the men are defined innrelation to their reactio to the women in their lives. Spock shuns the Vulcan science academy and joins starfleet because his mom was insulted!

310. dmduncan - January 29, 2012

299. boborci – January 29, 2012

Was that true for his decision to direct the sequel too? ;-)

311. Jack - January 29, 2012

299. Hey, despite all my babbling, I was okay with them being an item and with Star Trek generally. I just wanted more of these characters and to see tht there’s more to them, Uhura included. Romance is okay, as long as the sequel isn’t Avatar and there’s not slow motion love making in a bathtub in a room full of candles… to a Coldplay song, me, I’m fine. Unless Pine and Quinto are the ones in the tub, then I’d also be fine.

I get that it was an origin story – the pieces are in place now and I’d like to be shaken, entertained, thrilled, terrified, moved to weeping, left thinking for days and maybe get a little turned on. Ideally all within the first ten minutes.

Oh, wait, I was going to sit back and listen

312. Anthony Pascale - January 29, 2012

by the way folks, most site visitors dont read comments (or participate in them) I posted a copy of some of Bob’s recent comments about the script. I noticed he actually dropped a tiny itty bitty tidbit of info about the movie too.

You can keep talking here or move to the new thread for less scrolling, up to you!

313. FrancoMiranda - January 29, 2012

I vote new thread ^_^

314. N - January 29, 2012

I like the Spock/Uhura pairing, it works really well with the fact that Spock embraces Earth as home in this universe.

315. MJ - January 29, 2012

@303. Who let you out of your hole, Iva? Your hate is back in full force I see.

316. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 30, 2012

#219 – Did I actually say that having a mature outlook towards sexuality is always necessarily about putting “boobies and buttocks” on screen? For a start, being seen/filmed with naked breasts and/or buttocks does not necessarily have to have anything to do with sex, so why would you automatically think that is all that I meant?

I was commenting in the context of the discussion over whether Saavik actually mated with the young Spock in TSFS or not. The film left it unclear/unanswered. In a more mature, less repressive age, the situation would have been dealt with more openly and honestly, but that does NOT have to mean that we get to see all the intimate Vulcan Pon Farr sex by having Robin Curtis and the actor who played this Spock bare all. That would have been stupid anyway, since Genesis was pretty cold at that stage…

214: “People seem to have such a disrespect for sexuality in general.”

Sexuality may well be everywhere, especially in advertising, but that is not necessarily the same as having respect for sexuality. Don’t confuse the prevalence of a certain debased mindset that uses humanity’s innate sexuality for purely commercial purposes, with respect. That is/was my point. Yes, so-called sexuality is everywhere but rarely is it presented in a healthy, mature, positive and loving way. The disrespect and misunderstanding of our bodies is so twisted that in some places, breastfeeding mothers can actually be charged with the crime of indecency for nursing her own infant in what could be considered a public place, even inside her own car it seems. The “crime” is that she may expose part of her breast openly. So it seems the sight of a (lactating) breast is considered offensive – the source of new life’s nourishment and comfort and in many parts of the world, possibly the child’s only source.

These are the attitudes and laws that often go with them that I find disturbing and offensive – the real crime is that any mother should charged with indecency for nourishing her own infant in the way that nature intended, yet it is OK for the same woman to feed the child by a plastic bottle in the same public place. People may wonder what this has to do with the above topic but they are actually very interconnected.

The fact that women can fight in wars, hold down jobs in what were male dominated areas, kick ass (as Zoe Saldana wants to do) etc etc, really means little to me when it comes to true feminism. They just get to do what men do. All well and good but it does not necessarily constitute true feminism and equality…

So what if a character happens to be someone’s wife, sister, mother, aunt, grandmother, employer, employee? We are all somebody’s someone. What actually needs to happen is to acknowledge that McCoy is Jennifer’s father, that James Kirk is brother to George Samuel, that Spock is Uhura’s friend and lover and so it goes…

317. NCM - January 30, 2012

309. boborci – January 29, 2012

“306. As DMDUNCAn pointed out, most of the men are defined innrelation to their reactio to the women in their lives. Spock shuns the Vulcan science academy and joins starfleet because his mom was insulted!”

I guess the women are running to and the men are running fro, and if you reach far enough, all are influenced by the opposite sex. Bones entered SF b/c his ex-wife…, Spock left Vulcan b/c they insulted his mom (not also b/c he realized he’d never ‘measure up’?), Kirk entered b/c Winona married George and Nero killed.. But that’s a far reach.

There’s a difference between being motivated by your relationship with someone and being defined by it, but I guess the point will remain mute.

I loved Trek 2009 and have confidence that the sequel will be as good or better (better, surely, if you only heed the expert advice, here:). We all want the same thing; incredible, prosperous Trek.

BTW, British punctuation differs somewhat notably from punctuation in American English (theirs makes more sense; but we developed the printing press and it shaped our rules).

318. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 30, 2012

Jack – “Unless Pine and Quinto are the ones in the tub, then I’d also be fine.”

Yes, but you know how much trouble I got into when I first suggested such a scene with Kirk and other crew relaxing in a spa/jacuzi a few weeks back…:) And such a scene is in my story outline, except that neither Quinto/Spock nor Lt Uhura are in the spa with Kirk and others. Spock is acting captain with Uhura as communications officer on the bridge with him or is it he with her?.

Bob Orci made a good comment about writing the story from Kirk’s perspective, especially when it came to the scene with Gaila. It really would not have made sense if it had been written from Gaila’s perspective, since hers was a minor role. I think it is not that charitable to suggest that she was merely a tool for Kirk.

The reality is that Star Trek 09 spent only about three minutes in total dealing with the love/sexual relationships of the two main characters out of a total movie time of 1 hour 50 minutes…but hey, look at the debate etc that those three minutes have caused ever since the movie first aired in cinemas. Way to go – I think?!

319. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 30, 2012

Can’t sleep, so here I am, which is bad because they say blue light coming from screens keeps you up. :-/

@#297 dmduncan

Now you are being ridiculus. First, I have been very clear on why I come here, what I’m interested in most, and how I post.

Second, and more importantly, when have you ever seen me discuss or have a TOS content argument here?. It’ s just a question because I haven’t misrepresented myself at all, but it does look lke you haven’t been paying attention.

Case in point, I’ve said numerous times that I am not a huge TOS fan, but that I have seen some of it and most of the movies. So, with that being the case, why would you think I watched the entire series???

I said I came to this site because I liked the ST2009 movie, not because I’m a huge TOS fan. Now, I like the original chatacters, and that’s why I went to see ST09 and found a fun and pleasant surprise with some truly touching moments.

But yep, my mother is the TOS fan. I probaby would not have watched any Star Trek if it weren’t for her. As I’ve said before (again), I’ve seen some, most, or all of each series and most of the movies. I can appreciate it all, but I like what I like.

I’m not pretending anything, and you can’t show where I am because I’m not. The content that I have argued is the content I am familiar with, hence my interest in discussing the last film and THIS timeline, which again are also my main reasons for coming here.

@#286

Oh, come on now, dm. Did I say it was a relationship? And you wanted to talk about putting words in someone’s mouth… NOW he’s a creature with emotions??? Well let me tell you, dm, some of your cohorts here don’t know that, and you just now seem to be catching on. Way to move goal posts… Sheesh. I’m getting tired of this.

320. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 30, 2012

Last question, no, I’ll just comment.

@#282

I think that those moments were important and impactful to Spock as well. I know you all wrote it, but that’s what I saw on screen.

______________

And now it’s time for me to take a break.

321. VulcanFilmCritic - January 30, 2012

ST:TOS was both sexist and racist. (TNG was a bit more politically correct, though.)

Women paraded around like cocktail waitresses or showgirls and the men openly ogled them.

However, ST:TOS was an equal opportunity sexist “pig.” The men were objectified just as much as the women. How many times did Shatner’s shirt come off revealing that carefully shaved, basted and spritzed torso?

And Spock? Well, he stayed covered up most of the time, but casting Leonard Nimoy, who has a lot of animal magnetism, threw a real bone to the ladies. That voice, as deep as a man with laryngitis (and there’s nothing sexier than a man with a gravely voice) was the aural equivalent of huge tits. Went straight to a woman’s reptile-brain. One of the drawbacks of ST09 is the undistinguished nature of the crew’s voices. TOS had great voice talent. And when Nimoy finally did strip down, he was almost bestially hairy. Today that’s not too shocking but in the 60′s it was a little unusual for an actor not to have a shaved chest. Kind of like looking at armpit hair.

And Kirk and Spock together were even worse! They might just find themselves decked out in Nazi regalia, stripped to the waist, behind bars, in handcuffs, after having been flogged. WOW! If one of the fanzines had proposed that, they would have been called very kinky.

Just how many times did Kirk and Spock end up in manacles in a dungeon somewhere? And how many bullwhips (the Ahn-Woon doesn’t count) can you count in the run of the series?

No TOS was gloriously over-the-top in its celebration of subliminal and not so subliminal sexuality. And I for one hope the new movie finds the moxie to give us some delightfully kinky sweat-inducing moments.

322. CarlG - January 30, 2012

@298: Wow… If I ever meet you in person Anthony, I’m gonna have to buy you a beer or something.

323. Jinn-Jinn - January 30, 2012

Beer Buddies, LOL! I can’t imagine Spock *holding* a beer bottle, much less drinking from one. Still, this is an alternate universe. :-)

Its great to know Zoe was getting just as impatient to get started as the rest of us.

324. Do You Wanna Dance - January 30, 2012

Zoe and I have so much in common.

We both said, “Come on, come on already” in regards to the sequel. But, I guess you can’t rush good quality.

Was watching “The Losers” over the weekend. So nice to see her as such a bad-ass hottie.

325. Phil - January 30, 2012

@321…only a “bit” more politically correct? Compared to TOS, it was Star Trek in name and general shape only. TOS had that conquer the universe swagger, TNG was very “keep of the grass, don’t upset the status quo” in comparison. A consideration, though, is that you would expect a society to mature as it ages. Historically, the precedent is that as a society ages, it diminshes in greatness, either because they are conqured from without, or rot from within. So, wither the Federation, and when?

326. dmduncan - January 30, 2012

319: “Second, and more importantly, when have you ever seen me discuss or have a TOS content argument here?. It’ s just a question because I haven’t misrepresented myself at all, but it does look lke you haven’t been paying attention.”

“Case in point, I’ve said numerous times that I am not a huge TOS fan, but that I have seen some of it and most of the movies. So, with that being the case, why would you think I watched the entire series???”

1. I don’t read all your posts.

2. But even if I did read them: Not being a “huge TOS fan” does not = “I never watched the entire series.” I watched all of Earth 2 and I’m not a “huge Earth 2 fan.”

3. You are misrepresenting yourself because you are arguing as if you know more about the characters than you do, and This Side of Paradise is an example of that. So actually you know as much about Star Trek as someone who watched Les Miserables once knows about the French Revolution.

So keep telling me things I already know like that Spock feels things. You think? You really don’t get much of what I’ve been saying.

What next? You gonna point out what happens at the end of Amok Time when Spock learns Kirk isn’t dead? Been there, seen that, a hundred times and yet my arguments about the role of the character of Spock are STILL true. Hell, that’s part of the EVIDENCE I USE!!!!

327. dmduncan - January 30, 2012

I am intimately familiar with everything these characters have done in every episode and yet none of it contradicts my position on these S/U threads. Why not? Because it is all incorporated into the perspective which informs my argument here. It’s not as if I’m leaving things out to get the view I have.

328. Red Dead Ryan - January 30, 2012

#319.

Ah, I knew you weren’t a TOS fan! And you admit to not seeing much of it. So now your comments regarding Kirk-Spock-McCoy are invalid.

You lose. I win.

329. Spockanella - January 30, 2012

179: Late to the party as usual…but Mongo be right on the money.

330. dmduncan - January 30, 2012

BTW, Bob is right. S/U was 120 seconds in the movie.

So for the sequel I can take another 120 seconds. But at 150 seconds my skin begins to harden and crack. And at 170 seconds a squid monster emerges and consumes the audience.

331. VulcanFilmCritic - January 30, 2012

@325 Look, I was just being polite to TNG fans out there. Frankly, I’m not much of a fan of the other franchises besides TOS.
I didn’t want to start another Holy War.

332. Keachick - rose pinenut - January 30, 2012

“but casting Leonard Nimoy, who has a lot of animal magnetism, threw a real bone to the ladies. That voice, as deep as a man with laryngitis (and there’s nothing sexier than a man with a gravely voice) was the aural equivalent of huge tits. Went straight to a woman’s reptile-brain.”

I guess I mustn’t have a “woman’s reptile-brain” because I have never found Spock at all sexy, not Leonard Nimoy or Zachary Quinto really. Personally I found that bestial hairiness of Spock (Patterns of Force) rather unsexy and unattractive. Too much hair. Nimoy’s voice didn’t sound too bad when he was younger but now…ugh. I really wish he didn’t say what was more Kirk’s speech for TOS anyway, “These are the voyages…where no one has gone before”. He sounded weak and breathless. Nimoy sounded that way when he said it for the TOS movies of the 80′s as well. I try to hear what there is to like, because I know so many others love Nimoy’s voice, but all I end up doing is cringing.

He really should have just remained being science officer/first officer. That was Spock’s first, best destiny.

Bring on a youthful, powerful, well spoken Chris Pine Kirk voice. Why some people want these new characters to “mature” so much, I really don’t know, as if aging is the one thing we can avoid.

333. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 30, 2012

@#326

Total BS, dm. Just total bs. I argue what I know and I am very clear about it, but you don’t, especially when you change your opinions midstream. And you don’t have to watch every single episode and movie to understand and get a good grasp of the characters. And so what’s your argument against people who have seen the entire series and still don’t agree with you? Nevermind, it’ll just be more bs.

Oh, and so you haven’t read all of my posts, right? So, by your own arguments you have misrepresented yourself by speaking about how I post when really, how can you know… ;-)

Honestly, I’m tired of talking to you, but hey, if you wanna keep this thing going… :-/

@#328 Ryan

Nice try. You fail. :-/

334. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 30, 2012

I love both Zachary and Leonard’s voices. Nothing against Shatner or Pine, but they just don’t do it for me. Everyone’s different.

335. Red Dead Ryan - January 30, 2012

#333.

Nope. I didn’t fail. You did, and quite miserably, I might add. You prefer the new versions of the TOS characters over the old ones. Specifically Spock and Uhura. Which is fine, but you can’t say you weren’t a fan of TOS and yet like the characters within the show. Especially after admitting you’ve only saw SOME of the show. Can’t have it both ways without being hypocritical.

You’re a NuSpock/NuUhura fan, that’s it. I highly doubt that you’re a true Trek fan. If you were, we wouldn’t be having this arguement in the first place.

336. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 30, 2012

@#327

And that’s the problem. We’re talking about a new timeline and an almost rewrite of the characters and their adventures. Every episode of TOS being crammed into the making of these characters isn’t needed for that. It’s fine if it’s used, but it is not needed, and probably isn’t even the best idea.

That’s like thinking you need to know and include every detail of the French Revolution in order to write Les Miserable. If Hugo had done that, then his masterpiece most likely would have been a disasterous mess. The essence and the time needed to be captured, but not the actual war. A story about the war would have been a different story, kind of like movies about TOS are in that timeline and are different movies. You following?

337. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 30, 2012

@#335 Ryan

Wow, now I’m not a “true trek fan.” If that’s what you want to call it Ryan, go ahead. Just know that you are giving “true trek fans” a bad name. I said I wasn’t a huge fan of the show, not that I didn’t like it at all. That’s not having it both ways; it’s called being accurate. Overall, the show was okay.

And you’re just now getting that I prefer the new timeline? Okay, that only took months… :-/

Even still, if I had to pick favorites from TOS, it’s Spock and then Uhura, but I do generally like them all.

And you’re still failing, Ryan, but it’s okay. I’ve come to expect it.

338. VulcanFilmCritic - January 31, 2012

@332 Keachick
Star Trek is a huge banquet and everyone is free to sample what they like. I am convinced that the world could be divided into Spock fans and Kirk fans and there would be very little overlap. I wish I could do an experiment at a Star Trek convention. Spock fans on one side of the ballroom, and Kirk fans on the other. Then give them some psychological testing to see what defines them. I bet they’d be as different as chalk and cheese.

I have found Kirk fans to be invariably blond and attractive. They tend to be more extroverted than introverted and have a sense of humor. If I could find one word to describe them it would be: confident. Optimism also seems high among Kirk fans. I guess the captain is a kind of avatar for their inner being. One might go as far as to say among women, Kirk is a reflection of their inner male self, their animus.

However, die-hard Spock fans tend to outnumber strictly Kirk fans.
Visually, I have found no consistent physical features. They are of all races and body types, and although there are certainly some thin, long-leggedy fans who mirror the object of their adoration, the stereotypical Spock fan tends to be a somewhat zoftig, young, Caucasian woman. Goth tendencies are prevalent.

And by the way, although there is some overlap between Spock fans and Leonard Nimoy fans, they also tend to be different. The typical Leonard Nimoy fan, at least those who show up to his endeavors outside of Star Trek were described as well-dressed, stylish women of…*ahem*…a certain age. At least that is what one Boston newspaper reported.

@337 Spock/Uhura fan. You are certainly entitled to have your say. Obviously, the new movie will pull in new blood and they will be different from us old TOS fans. It’s a different time and place. One of my cousins, who is even older than I am just loves Zachary Quinto. She writes pages and pages of fan fiction about Spock and Uhura. I like the new characters too, but after almost 45 years, I cannot see them without thinking of the original crew upon which they are based. Many old fans (and even Mrs. Susan Nimoy) have remarked that in the Spock get-up, Mr. Quinto bears a striking resemblance to Mr. Nimoy’s Spock, but I hope in the new movie he will establish a new persona that is just as endearing as the one Mr. Nimoy has created.

P.S.- Too bad about Mr. Nimoy’s voice. It was the most potent actor’s tool he had, but he wrecked it by smoking so much. While William Shatner’s voice is still resonant and silky, Nimoy’s is thin and reedy due to emphysema and other respiratory problems. One wonders what he’d be like today if he had taken as good care of himself as today’s male actors do (and must.) Having full upper and lower plates does not help his ability to project his voice.
I too found his voiceover at the end of the movie a little unconvincing, but remember that he is playing a character who is quite aged, so he may have been exaggerating the frail quality of the voice.

339. Alice - January 31, 2012

I for one don’t want to see any more of this romance. It was pointless in the last movie.

340. Spock/Uhura Fan - January 31, 2012

@#339

Thanks, Alice. I’m sure your comments are always appreciated.

@#338

Hi, VFC.

So now the discussion turns to this…

Personally, I think preferences are just preferences. I don’t read too much into it, especially not to the point of wanting to do psychological testing at a convention. Do people get pscho-analyzed if they prefer apples over oranges or vice versa? I hope not. That’s just taking things too far to me, but like I told someone else here, we’re all different…

I have found Kirk fans to be invariably blond and attractive. They tend to be more extroverted than introverted and have a sense of humor. If I could find one word to describe them it would be: confident. Optimism also seems high among Kirk fans. I guess the captain is a kind of avatar for their inner being. One might go as far as to say among women, Kirk is a reflection of their inner male self, their animus.

That is an interesting find. The way you describe “Kirk fans” sounds like they are all the same, all a part of some collective of uniformity with a blonde Stepford-wife likeness going on… If that observation is meant to be a complement, then okay. I’m not saying anything against anyone, just looking at your observations. And he’s an “avatar” for them, you say? Okay… Just remember you said it, not me.

Personally, I’d hope there would be some variety to his fans, but I’ve never gone to any Kirk conventions to see the sea of perky blonde staring at the podium. There’s nothing wrong with being blonde or perky, but all of the fans you’ve seen are that way?? Again, okay, but it doesn’t sound natural at all.

However, die-hard Spock fans tend to outnumber strictly Kirk fans.
Visually, I have found no consistent physical features. They are of all races and body types, and although there are certainly some thin, long-leggedy fans who mirror the object of their adoration, the stereotypical Spock fan tends to be a somewhat zoftig, young, Caucasian woman. Goth tendencies are prevalent.

And by the way, although there is some overlap between Spock fans and Leonard Nimoy fans, they also tend to be different. The typical Leonard Nimoy fan, at least those who show up to his endeavors outside of Star Trek were described as well-dressed, stylish women of…*ahem*…a certain age. At least that is what one Boston newspaper reported.

Gee, I always wanted to be “different.” So, based off of your generalizations (which is interesting because you first said that there were no consistent features), I’m either a chubby teenage goth-princess or a woman of a “certain age.” Mmh, neither apply, but thanks. It’d be interesting to know where you are getting your stereotypes from, but it’s not necessary.

Everything you’ve just said holds about as much weight as a mood ring telling someone that they are happy. :-/

This is a good thing for both sets of fan groups. No offense.

P.S Same thing goes for the lizard quote cited some posts above. It was so silly, I just overlooked it.

@337 Spock/Uhura fan. You are certainly entitled to have your say. Obviously, the new movie will pull in new blood and they will be different from us old TOS fans. It’s a different time and place. One of my cousins, who is even older than I am just loves Zachary Quinto. She writes pages and pages of fan fiction about Spock and Uhura. I like the new characters too, but after almost 45 years, I cannot see them without thinking of the original crew upon which they are based. Many old fans (and even Mrs. Susan Nimoy) have remarked that in the Spock get-up, Mr. Quinto bears a striking resemblance to Mr. Nimoy’s Spock, but I hope in the new movie he will establish a new persona that is just as endearing as the one Mr. Nimoy has created.

That just goes to show the powerful appeal of Spock and Mr. Quinto. :-) Young and old, different races and ethnicities, and overall different types women (and men, I’d guess) from here and there and high and low just seem to love the character and the actors who play and played him.

I don’t write fan fiction, but I wish your cousin the best in her endeavors. I think it is good that she can do something as a hobby that she enjoys. Interestingly enough, I came here because I wanted to see the updates on production for the next film and to have fun talking to other people about what we liked about the last one. If that went into other parts of Trek, all the better. I didn’t expect many or most of the conversations I’ve run into, but it is what it is.

I guess I can say that I am glad that I don’t have your problem at all. When I see Zachary as Spock, I only think of and see the beautiful Spock that is in front of me. :-) But I didn’t grow up watching Star Trek, really. I sometimes would watch an episode (TOS of course) with my mother or sample some of the other versions, and the first time I ever saw a Trek film was when she talked me into going. Don’t worry, it was nice, so I’m not saying anything bad.

I just don’t come from a Sci-Fi family. My mother was the black sheep of the bunch as a TOS Trekker, but even she doesn’t take it as seriously as I’ve seen people here taking it. It was a show, a source of entertainment (and for some, inspiration). That is all. Eventually I became a DS9 fan, but if they did a reboot of it, I wouldn’t throw a fit over the characters being updated and somewhat different from the originals. Just enjoy it for what it’s worth, or not, would be my approach…

I too hope (and believe) that the new Spock will be as endearing as Mr. Nimoy’s. For me, in ST09 he already is. Still, I don’t know what’s coming down the pike, and based off of some of what I’ve read, a damper has been put on my enthusiasm for the next picture. Well, I’ll either enjoy it for what it’s worth, or not.

P.S.- Too bad about Mr. Nimoy’s voice. It was the most potent actor’s tool he had, but he wrecked it by smoking so much. While William Shatner’s voice is still resonant and silky, Nimoy’s is thin and reedy due to emphysema and other respiratory problems. One wonders what he’d be like today if he had taken as good care of himself as today’s male actors do (and must.) Having full upper and lower plates does not help his ability to project his voice.
I too found his voiceover at the end of the movie a little unconvincing, but remember that he is playing a character who is quite aged, so he may have been exaggerating the frail quality of the voice.

Well it’s still in fine condition to me based off of the Secret Selves conversation and question/answer session he did with Zachary that Aurore linked to. It’s not what it was, but it works well still. And I’d rather hear him do a voice-over or narration than Shatner, although I have nothing against Shatner. His voice and intonation are historic. Everybody knows when it’s Shatner talking, kind of like everyone knows when it’s Cher singing (not saying anything bad about Cher). But, everytime I’ve heard his voice mimicked, it was a part of a spoof or some joke, and not as a credit to him.

People talk the way they talk, so I’m not being mean. I think he’s just fine as he is; he just wouldn’t be my preference for voice work while I’d still listen with ease to what some call Nimoy’s “rasp.” That was one thing I think they got right about Pine. I think it was JJ that said that they didn’t want to try to find someone who would mimick Shatner’s speaking style. That was a big win in my book. Both Pine and Quinto’s voices work just fine to me for voice work, so there you go.

Back to Nimoy. I’m going to have to disagree with you again because I think he was perfect in the film, all the way through, and especially at the end. Even with the bit of rasp he still has a great and commanding voice, but there’s also a quiet and stillness there. How and why that’s the case isn’t a point of focus for me, just the fact that I was happy with it.

Thanks.

341. dmduncan - January 31, 2012

333: “Oh, and so you haven’t read all of my posts, right? So, by your own arguments you have misrepresented yourself by speaking about how I post when really, how can you know… ;-)”

No, I do not read all of your posts. The opinions I state about your posts come entirely from the ones I DO read. THAT’S how I know. Because the problems in your thinking are in the ones that I DO read, usually directed at me, and which I respond to, which explains why I respond to them. Because you responded to me, and out of respect, I answer. Now you may not like the answer, but respect motivates me to give you one.

Now, I see what you do, and you have a habit of trying to repeat the same arguments people make to you back to them, as if merely by doing that you have automatically achieved some argumentative equilibrium with the opponent.

But that only works if the situation in both cases is identical. Where relevant differences exist, and you use that strategy without taking notice of those differences, then the comparison is weak, failure prone.

That is the case here and now. Me not reading all of your posts, but reading the ones you address to me and responding to the ones addressed to me based on the mistakes you made in representing my positions or even in understanding what my positions ARE, is entirely different from you not watching all of TOS and thereby lacking a better foundation in the material my arguments are based on.

A YouTube clip is not a full argument. It’s an example from a mass of evidence that you need to have a complete familiarity with; the examples are meant to recall the larger body of information. If you don’t know that information or how it relates to the history of the franchise and why things turned out the way that they did, then you really can’t ANSWER the arguments I BUILD WITH THAT INFORMATION because you yourself don’t have it!!! That explains why I’ve been having the experience with you that I’ve been having, i.e., that of talking to someone who says things which make me think they don’t know much about TOS.

This really shouldn’t even require explanation. You don’t read a few chapters of a book and then argue like you have a better understanding of the total case the author is making than you do.

“And so what’s your argument against people who have seen the entire series and still don’t agree with you? Nevermind, it’ll just be more bs.”

Good question! Sometimes, what happened was those other arguments ended up something like ours just did too, with me being called something or being insulted.

See, that question has already been answered in debates on this site.

Knowing TOS better does not mean you will agree with me, but it DOES mean you will at least understand what I AM saying better based on that better knowledge which informs my argument, and that you will be less likely to make the kinds of mistakes you’ve been making in misrepresenting me, which are tedious for me to answer. And really, just not fair to either of us.

So, for your impudence, and the fact that you resort to the ad hominems the way you do, you are hereby required to look up that information on your own, if you want to know it.

Then I’ll answer questions if you have any. Because you’ve already lost the argument by calling what I say bs. My rational obligation to answer you for this argument ended with that, and I think that from now on, with you, I’ll just stop when it ends.

But I’m not upset! Nope! Still cheerful and in good spirits!

342. NCM - January 31, 2012

338. VulcanFilmCritic – January 31, 2012:

I became a Spock and Nimoy fan at ‘the certain age’ of 11, about the same age that most Trek fans I’ve encountered (in the 35 years since) fell in love with the show (regardless whether they were adolescents in the 60s or the 80s). I can’t recall a single Kirk fan that fits your blonde and attractive depiction–not to say there’s nothing to it, but I wouldn’t count it among stereotypes generated by a strong correlation to reality. How many such ‘specimens’ do you eye at a convention (or elsewhere?).

I’ve known far more Spock fans (few are over-weight) than Kirk fans–perhaps I gravitate toward those who would meet me on the Spock side:). Though I’ve had the fine fortune to know a many Trek fans through the years, I realize my sampling isn’t likely to be statistically relevant, of course.

I wonder if you wouldn’t see a more obvious fan divide between convention goers and those who would never attend a convention for fear the geek factor would overwhelm (or sully) them. Save one or two, the fans I’ve known are steadfastly in the latter category.

343. Keachick - rose pinenut - February 1, 2012

Holy Moly.

First of all, VFC, were these your own observations of Kirk and Spock fans or was this a quote? I am not clear here.

I guess the general description of Kirk fans as to their physical appearances etc makes me fit right in. I am fair and naturally blonde right up to the birth of my first child and reasonably tall compared with other female members of my family. I suppose I must be optimistic overall, not sure about always being so confident, can be both extroverted/introverted depending (I guess that’s most people really) and about the sense of humour – well, that’s a subjective thing. Yes, it is possible that the character and inherent heterosexual masculinity of Kirk as portrayed by William Shatner (and to some extent by Chris Pine) could be regarded as the perfect complement to my heterosexual femininity – if this is what you meant.

Personally, I do not find anything that appealing about a character who defines himself or only allows himself to experience intellectual or rigidly defined “spiritual” attributes and experiences only and who can’t or won’t love/f*ck a nice woman – to put it honestly. Plus, to me, Leonard Nimoy and Zachary Quinto are not as physically attractive as William Shatner was. Chris Pine is even more physically attractive. Leonard and Zachary are not ugly either…

I kinda thought “Gee, that’s a coincidence. Who knew? Not me”. Then I read Spock/Uhura Fans comment about the Stepford wives – gee thanks for that. Huh? LOL

Of course, in the alternate universe, things have got a bit “mixed up” in respect to Spock, but Spock always had the potential to become one part of an intimate friendship, but in the prime universe, he chose not to pursue that side in favour of easier intellectual and supposedly spiritual pursuits. Fair enough.

Traditionally, relationships, especially sexual ones, have been regarded as the antithesis to *proper* spiritual practice and expression. This perspective was what was largely behind how Spock’s character was represented. However, it is not necessarily the only way of understanding either spirituality or sexuality, nor even the perspective that gives the most insight into the spiritual nature of humans.

344. VulcanFilmCritic - February 1, 2012

@ 340. Thanks for the thoughtful comments and analysis. Obviously, I haven’t polled the entire universe of Star Trek fans, but there are my observations. Of course I live on the East coast of the US, so this might not be the case elsewhere.
Psychological testing is not psycho-analysis. Psychological testing is done ALL THE TIME on groups. Market research, opinion polls, political polls. Every night I am treated to Chuck Todd’s psychological snapshots of, say likely Ron Paul voters, or people who hate Mitt Romney because he’s a Mormon, etc.
I think it might be interesting to get a few psychological snapshots of Star Trek fans. Who are the old fans? Who are the new fans? Spock fans vs. Kirk fans. I was asked to participate in a panel of Star Trek fans, and I agreed. They are anonymous, and I certainly don’t mind voicing my opinion.

@ 343 Keachick. There are probably as many reasons to be a Spock fan as there are Spock fans. I really don’t know why I am a Spock fan, unless Isaac Asimov is right: that smart (very smart) is sexy. He’s not as attractive as Kirk. In fact, then the show first came on in 1966, I didn’t like him one bit. I thought his raspy voice was distracting to say the least, and I almost turned off the show because of him. The only reason I stayed was because the show was really good, and a little scary and Robert Walker, jr, as Charlie X was such a compelling villain (to a 10 year old.)
What Nimoy had in his favor was character development and pathos. I began to feel sorry for Mr. Spock, as the show unfolded and I guess that led to a certain identification with the character.

345. Keachick - rose pinenut - February 1, 2012

Yes, I agree – intelligence is very attractive, perhaps even more appealing than simple physical attractiveness. However, James Kirk had/has both and that to me is extremely attractive.

I am not just attracted to Chris Pine because of his obvious good looks. When I see, hear and read about him, it is also apparent that he is intelligent as well, which, of course, is why he makes a very good Captain Kirk.

So people like Spock out of pity? That Spock needs and wants rescuing and fans of Spock see themselves as being the ones who can do that for Spock?
Except that Spock does not want “rescuing”. He does not want to take a chance on love (to love and be loved). He spurns any kind of affection – eg Nurse Chapel and is angered by it. How is that attractive to people? How is that sexy?

Lots of fans see Spock (Nimoy and Quinto) as being sexy and it is not just in response to his physical appearance which they find good to look at.

What is going on here?

I guess all this could be the basis of someone’s thesis for a sociology and/or psychology paper – understanding where Kirk and Spock fans “might be coming from”. It would not be a case of who are right or wrong, better or worse, whatever…just very interesting and possibly illuminating and instructive. It needs to be borne in mind that it would be an overall analysis which may identify a particular pattern, however this may not necessarily strictly apply to each and every fan.

346. Keachick - rose pinenut - February 1, 2012

#340 – “The way you describe “Kirk fans” sounds like they are all the same, all a part of some collective of uniformity with a blonde Stepford-wife likeness going on…”

VFC said it was an observation of what he had seen, an impression he had got from (presumably) a convention or other that he had been to. An observation does not make for a complement or criticism. An observation is simply noting, seeing, hearing without there necessarily being any bias attached, ie being objective.

However, taking what was an observation and likening the subjects of the observation to a “blonde Stepford-wife likeness” is not being impartial at all, and personally, I find rather insulting. I guess I should be grateful that you did not throw in the “dumb blonde” or the “blonde bimbo” cliche, but you might as well have done, given your Stepford wife comment.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073747/

This is the movie I remember about the Stepford wives…now if only I could forget!

347. VulcanFilmCritic - February 1, 2012

@346 Who ever said I was a he?

As for likening Kirk fans to Stepford wives, I think you and S/UF are hallucinating.

348. Keachick - rose pinenut - February 1, 2012

I did not make any reference to Stepford wives. I was responding to S/UF’s reference to those robotic women from the movie. Please pay attention! I already feel insulted once already.

Good. So you are a she, I take it. Sorry. Most people posting here are males…

As I wrote on another thread, I thought it might be a good idea if posters, along with the pseudonym they used, also identified their gender/sex by simply writing beside their name M or F. That laughably, simple idea got shot down, so we have what we have now. Would you rather that I had referred to you as an “it”. For some reason, the vibe (rightly or wrongly) I always had from reading your posts was that you were male. Don’t ask me why – just is.

Some people have referred to me as being male, yet I have always been clear about my gender. Why should you, who, as far as I am aware, have never given any indication of your gender, be taken aback by my referring to you as a “he”? I was not being rude, but others have been.

349. Spock/Uhura Fan - February 1, 2012

Wow! Now it’s my turn to say holy moly.

It’s the end of the day and I don’t have the time to respond to everything, but I have to say something to this:

@#346 Keachick

No where were in my post were you or anyone else called a stepford wife. Pkease reread the post, especially the part you seemed to OVERLOOK which says “I’m not saying anything against anyone, just looking at your observations.” I’m insulted at that. Before you accuse me of doing something I did not do, please do me a favor and pay attention to what I wrote.

Me stating what something sounds like to me does not equate to calling anyone that. And just in case you didn’t catch it, I dont think all Shatner fans are like that. Hell, my mother is a Shatner/Kirk fan and that’s the last thing I’d call her!

I think people need to calm down and read things carefully before they start blowing up at people.

And btw, this was The Stepford Wives movie that I was referencing and the creepier older one, not that it makes a difference: http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0327162/

Sheesh!

350. Spock/Uhura Fan - February 1, 2012

That last sentence should read ‘and not the creepier older one.’

And my goodness. I’ll just say that I reallt do take it as a huge insult, Keachick, for you to put that kind of statement in my mouth when it really does NOT fit. As a woman, and even as a girl, I have stood for female/women’s rights and against women and girls being forced into roles and limited and held back just because of their sex. It’s wrong. Just plain wrong.

I think what you’ve said is the most hurtful thing I’ve come across while at this site, and that’s really saying something.

351. Keachick - rose pinenut (F) - February 2, 2012

S/U Fan – you need to re-read your response to VulcanFilmCritic’s observations.

It was you who compared VFC’s observations to the Stepford wives. What if VFC’s observations actually turned out to be fairly accurate assessment of Kirk fans within the English speaking western world? Since when does the description above make these people seem like Stepford wives, given what the story line of the Stepford Wives is about? Why did you even mention the Stepford wives? What made you even think, let alone, write it?

It wasn’t VFC who attempted to pigeon-hole Kirk fans. You did and just from reading someone’s observations and impressions she got about a group of people. What has your standing up for women’s rights got to do with anything here? This appears to be the very opposite.

Perhaps it is possible that real blondes (not some fake bleached brunette) may actually have a tendency to have a more positive outlook on life, have a greater sense of humour and as a result appear more confident, and share similar preferences in men (in this case, the Captain Kirk character, as well as, possibly, the actor who plays him) but that does not make them akin to robots simply programmed to please men.

What I commented on when I first read VFC’s description was how close it was to describing me. It surprised me and has certainly got me more than a little curious. You see…I am one of those blondes.

Perhaps I am overly touchy. It is just that “blondes” have come in for a lot of flack for a long time – dumb blonde, blonde bimbo, blonde scatter-brain, “blondes have more fun”, often really meaning, “blondes make good sluts so you can dump ‘em afterwards” and so it goes on. The irony is that most of these women who play up to this blonde stereotyping are not actually true blondes. They have to use hair dyes from an early age, like their teens. It is quite possible that many of those Kirk fans described weren’t actually real blondes, but there is something that makes them want to have that hair colouring. Perhaps it was colour they had when they were younger, so it makes them look and feel more youthful and that can have a very positive effect in itself. However, for some reason, this hair colouring has also been associated with other silly, childish behavour as well.

A recent unfortunate example just perpetuates a notion – on the thread about This Means War and Chris Pine, there is a video of a short interview with him by a (dyed) “blonde” female reporter, who managed to lose it at the end and became an example of the “dumb blonde bimbo”. Chris smiled politely and moved off…

I am a mother of three children and I still have some blonde hairs, my own natural, uncoloured fair hair. I just saw your postings as another sly swipe made against a certain section of the population and a dwindling one at that.

I guess we have misunderstood and offended each other. I am sorry for that.

352. Spock/Uhura Fan - February 2, 2012

Keachick, I will fully respond to you later, as well as dm. :-/ Holy moly again… :-/

353. Spock/Uhura Fan - February 2, 2012

… and VFC too. I just saw her post.

354. Jack - February 2, 2012

@336 “And that’s the problem. We’re talking about a new timeline and an almost rewrite of the characters and their adventures. Every episode of TOS being crammed into the making of these characters isn’t needed for that. It’s fine if it’s used, but it is not needed, and probably isn’t even the best idea.”

I absolutely agree. I’ve been thinking about this a lot over the past couple of days. What’s the point of a new movie series if we want rigid adherence to everything we’ve seen before? Heck, the original cast movies existed independently, in a sense. Visually they were entirely different. The characters behaved differently, as they might (if they were real) if decades had passed, there were no references (other than Khan’s) to specific events of TOS, no wink-wink repetition of TOS catchphrases (if I recall, there were few, if any, “I’m a doctor not a..” in the first few movies…

My point? They got the spirit right and actually made them more interesting characters. It made sense when viewed alongside TOS.

Suspension of disbelief is required, in any case, but as long as there’s nothing completely incongruous (and even if there is) it’ll work. And heck, look at how well Fringe does the alternate universe thing (and the nature/nurture argument)… It looks at how different experiences can change people, and how those changes aren’t necessarily as fundamental as they seem…

Anyway. I don’t want to see a TOS episode onscreen (which was the damning praise for Insurrection — “it’s just like an episode!”), I want to see a heck of a movie, and a substantial movie.

Look at The Dark Knight — I think it worked because it took its universe and its characters seriously, while the first one still had one foot in the comics (the plot to destroy the city! The love affair and damsel in distress), and in the previous movies.

There was no need, by the Dark Knight, to reassure fans that they’d read the comics and seen the movies.

And that’s what I worry about — that they’ll be so worried about getting the details right that they won’t be able to tell a terrific, gut wrenching story.

355. Paige - February 2, 2012

I’ll preface this by saying I didn’t/don’t really enjoy the Spock/Uhura romance. I would much prefer to see the development of the Kirk, Spock and McCoy friendship and their working together as this cohesive, amazing team without one of the three being distracted by a romance so early in their development as this cohesive, amazing team. But that is simply my opinion on that matter, I recognize fully anyone’s right to their own preferences for what they would like to see in the upcoming film. Different strokes for different folks.

However, having said all of the above, I really did enjoy portrayal of Uhura in the last film. As a woman who grew up in the late 70′s, and all throughout the 80′s, Uhura was a character I always looked up to and I loved that the new incarnation of her captured her brilliance, her inner steel, her sensitivity and her wit. I find the notion that’s been put on the table here – that by portraying a strong, independent woman finding romance somehow makes said woman no longer strong and independent – worrying. Uhura knows what she wants, both in her career and in a partner, and she went for it, the movie shows this clearly. There is nothing wrong with that and her doing it does not, in any way, turn her into a token figure, or lessen her ability to do her job. In fact, I think it shows a great knowledge of self, and also an admirable level of assertiveness and confidence.

356. Jack - February 2, 2012

318. RE: Nudity. I was kidding :). I don’t want to see screentime wasted on Kirk and Spock (or anyone) in a jacuzzi any more than I wanted to see a bunch of people in their underwear smearing gel on each other on Enterprise. I don’t think it has anything to do with the darned story.

That said, I liked the shower scene in Starship Troopers, but partially because it just added to the camp of the whole thing. The movie was ridiculous, and meant to be, and the scene totally helped sell that. And seeing fit people naked doesn’t hurt.

If it’s a story or an adult drama about sex, well, then, yeah, it’s a copout not to see it or at least have it suggested. But I’m hoping this doesn’t apply to the next Star Trek movie, the romance/relationship shouldn’t be the point of the thing. I’m all for titillating. But not when it’s ridiculous.

There’s times where not suggesting nudity is ridiculous — like if a character has been stripped by aliens and is floating in some medical scanner, yet is wearing special underpants (say in, Green Lantern). No, we don’t need to see his junk, but, heck, suggest from the side that he’s naked… I know, I’m sounding like a perv. Or don’t show that section of his body at all. But there have been scenes in movies where this (nudity) has worked well, say 28 days later, and also has a pretty jarring dramatic affect.

Like I think I’ve said already. It bugged me in Twilight taht there’s not even the suggestion that the werewolves are ever naked (they don’t have to show anything). It would be funny to have Bella looking away/ sneaking a look. It just becomes ridiculous after a while — they shred their clothes when they transform but emerge in pants (and the girl in pants and a blouse) and sometimes shirts (except jacob, who’s had a lot of gym time) when they shift back to human form miles away. Jeans and sneakers are expensive, why wouldn’t they take them off if they knew they were going to transform? Show it offscreen, but acknowledge it. It doesn’t make sense.

So if the screenplay has them on some planet where they’re all required to be naked (and I’m hoping it doesn’t). Well, it would be ridiculous if we don’t see an Austin Power’s-style obscured-boobies shot. But, yuck. I’m hoping this doesn’t happen.

I remember stories, I think maybe in Walter Koenig’s book about TMP, that they’d planned to show the Ilia probe’s bare breasts in the shower, because, well, it was the ’70s. And, it was argued that it wasn’t really needed for the story and that it wouldn’t be that appreciated by the families who’d go see Trek with their kids. They could have showed her from the back, if anything, with Kirk’s reaction. But, yeah, they didn’t need to. I guess the dramatic function could have been that she/it saw no point in clothing and saw no need for modesty, because it was a machine. But…

And, yeah, there’s that whole argument that Americans are prudes and taht there’s nothing harmful in seeing nudity, which I agree with… but, when’s it necessary.

Now, if there’s actually a nude scene for some reason — like, say the one in Joy Ride. Well, it’s copping out to show them only from the waist up (and negates the point of the scene). Heck, same with the skinny dipping in planet of the apes — they’re doing it, so why not show it? Actually, now that I’ve said that, I realize that I didn’t really need to see any of that, but at least it wasn’t copping out, and certainly wasn’t there to titillate. Or the Terminator arriving in the past in Terminator. Or wolves changing back to human form in American Werewolf in London (although, those last two were in the free-wheelin’ early, early ’80s).

And, yeah, does Trek need bare butts just for the sake of them? No. And, would that affect the pg rating?

That said, it would be cool if in the future, like in Europe (supposedly), we won’t be so ashamed of our bodies and men and women could change in front of each other, when necessary, without it being ridiculous. Could Star Trek show that? Heck, it certainly wasn’t the point (hey, these are mature professionals) of those Enterprise decom scenes — there, the fact that they were all half-naked was a HUGE deal.

BTW, am I the only one who was confused by that Ilia scene when I was a kid? I didn’t really get that the dressing gown was put on her by Kirk, and not something she magically did herself. I also didn’t get, until I saw it again and heard teh computer voice/ security) that the wavy effect was the sonic shower, and not some magic transportation device. Was she in a really, really hot shower, or did the heat come from however she got there — or both?

How’d we get on this, BTW? The nakedness?

357. dmduncan - February 2, 2012

354: “What’s the point of a new movie series if we want rigid adherence to everything we’ve seen before?”

I think most people understand that the adherence will be flexible, not rigid. Clearly there has to be some adherence or it wouldn’t make any sense to call it Star Trek. A resemblance between old and new means there’s an adherence in the new to some things of the old. If you want something all new, then why would we be on a site dedicated to a franchise that has existed since the 60′s? So again, we want something new, but new within limits, because once again, if all the old limits are violated then again we have no Star Trek, we just have some new thing.

The question then becomes what do you change and what do you not change?

And most of the arguments are about precisely that, what to change, and what not to change, with different people having different answers to that question.

It isn’t a matter of rigid vs. flexible adherence to TOS, but what to be rigid about and what to be flexible about. The fans of S/U are quite rigid about what they want to see. And I am resolved for the things that I have found of value in the franchise.

358. Aurore - February 2, 2012

As a Star Trek fan who thought that the Spock and Nyota Uhura romance was a nice surprise, it would be great, at least, in my opinion, to be able to watch the sequel alongside S/U fans who are resolved for the things that they have found of value in the franchise, and, S/U “infidels” who are quite rigid about what they don’t want to see.

Now is, I believe, a good time to reiterate that, above all, I hope for an excellent sequel.

Goodnight, all.

359. dmduncan - February 3, 2012

358. Aurore – February 2, 2012

You can sit next to me, so long as you are not armed with a stack of pies.

360. Aurore - February 3, 2012

“You can sit next to me, so long as you are not armed with a stack of pies.”
_________

Is that a threat? I’m shaking.

I’ll be armed with what I want.

You, infidel…

:)

361. dmduncan - February 3, 2012

Cara mia, I merely wish to see the movie…and perhaps express myself a little during it.

362. Aurore - February 4, 2012

“Cara mia, I merely wish to see the movie…and perhaps express myself a little during it.”
___________

Va bene.

So long as you do it in Italian……..and, not too often………and, not too loudly either, we should be golden.

:)

363. Aurore - February 6, 2012

dmduncan,

I’m sorry. I misunderstood you.

I was addressing you ( @362 ), i.e, an American of Italian and Scottish(?) descent. While, as I realized later, you were probably speaking as Cara Mia’s demented husband.

Ah! Of course….That was too good to be true.

You see, as Spock and Uhura would have been kissing slowly, tenderly, passionately, I could have dealt with your hurling a few Italian swear words. But, no. That obviously won’t happen.

There will be pea soup. Metamorphosis. And, a giant squid might well end up being the last thing I’ll ever see.

Nevermind.

I’m a Star Trek fan ; risk is my business too.
Besides, I am determined to boldly go watch that sequel…

364. Aurore - February 6, 2012

Cara Mia’s demented husband = “Cara mia” ‘s demented husband.

365. Aurore - February 6, 2012

dmduncan, my point was merely that I might have missed one of your jokes, by the way.
It happened before on a thread about( Babylon 5 and )Mr. Koenig. So, it is possible.

:)

I ‘m saying this, because while rereading my post I realized that it sounded serious while it was NOT AT ALL!!!

366. dmduncan - February 7, 2012

Oh, you are too funny!

367. piper - February 7, 2012

I am a complete lover of Spock and Uhura. In the first movie Spock says that whoever they were in the other timeline was changed. So all you people going on about how Spock wouldn’t do this or that and that you want him to be like he was in the original series are forgetting that this is a brand new series where they are not the same people. There was also Spock/Uhura tension in the original TV series and Spock and Uhura were supposed to kiss but Shatner wanted to kiss her. Spock can still be his mostly unemotional self and be with Uhura. I cannot wait until the sequal comes out!

368. Spock/Uhura Fan - February 11, 2012

Okay, time for this now.

@dmduncan #341

333: “Oh, and so you haven’t read all of my posts, right? So, by your own arguments you have misrepresented yourself by speaking about how I post when really, how can you know… ;-)”
No, I do not read all of your posts. The opinions I state about your posts come entirely from the ones I DO read. THAT’S how I know. Because the problems in your thinking are in the ones that I DO read, usually directed at me, and which I respond to, which explains why I respond to them. Because you responded to me, and out of respect, I answer. Now you may not like the answer, but respect motivates me to give you one.

Respect? If you say so, dm, if you say so… That must be why you called myself and others here “Leilas” further up in this comments section. :-/

And of course, going back to the point that I was making, my observations and gatherings about the TOS characters are based off of the episodes and movies I DID WATCH. That’s how I know about and have my own opinions of the characters. You posted a clip, and I commented on the emotion in that clip, but we’ll get to that later since I see you’ve mentioned it later on in your post to me.

And as to an answer, the only question that I recall asking you was if you were following. That’s a “Yes” or “No” question. Based off of your response, I’m going to say no, but that’s okay.

Now, I see what you do, and you have a habit of trying to repeat the same arguments people make to you back to them, as if merely by doing that you have automatically achieved some argumentative equilibrium with the opponent.

“Argumentative equilibriums” have nothing to do with it. You used a metaphoric example. Seeing as these were the metaphors you were using (Les Mis (ST09) and the French Revolution (TOS)), then I would guess that you are fairly familiar with them, meaning that you can relate to those examples as metaphors being used, and so I used them to make my point to you. You can call that whatever you like.

That was not repeating the same argument back to you, but if you want to think of it that way, then go ahead. Again, if that’s what you do think, and apparently it is, then you missed my point altogether. Speaking plainly, the point is that you do not need to see ALL of TOS in order to understand the characters. I’ll speak more on this in a bit…

But that only works if the situation in both cases is identical. Where relevant differences exist, and you use that strategy without taking notice of those differences, then the comparison is weak, failure prone.
That is the case here and now. Me not reading all of your posts, but reading the ones you address to me and responding to the ones addressed to me based on the mistakes you made in representing my positions or even in understanding what my positions ARE, is entirely different from you not watching all of TOS and thereby lacking a better foundation in the material my arguments are based on.

And that’s where you are losing it. Okay, taking this step-by-step, you, in your own words, are saying that you’ve only read the posts that I addressed to you. Based off of only those posts, you have made your own assessments and have your own opinions, which you are free to have. I understand your positions and what they are in terms of how they have been presented to me, but that is beside the point, just like you believing that you understand me based off of misinterpreting my posts.

Frankly, we don’t know each other, so how well either of us can say this or that about the other just ends up being a bit moot at the end of the day. Your opinions and my opinions are based off of our experiences and how we feel about what we have experienced of the show and the movies. That is all. But, you can continue to believe that you are on some ‘higher ground’ of real Star Trek fandom, while I supposedly am not. Hey, it’s like that song goes, “If it makes you happy…” :-)

The foundation that I have is a pretty decent one, I believe. And getting back to the initial point I was making with Les Mis/French Revolution, even if my foundation in TOS Trek were completely non-existent, what does that have to do with THIS timeline? The characters are not exactly the same, and all anyone would need to know is how THESE characters ARE, and we can get that from the new movies themselves. No one needs to see the original series for that. I know that it may be hard to take, but it’s true. Again, I believe that was the point of doing something called a REBOOT, but I could be wrong…

A YouTube clip is not a full argument. It’s an example from a mass of evidence that you need to have a complete familiarity with; the examples are meant to recall the larger body of information. If you don’t know that information or how it relates to the history of the franchise and why things turned out the way that they did, then you really can’t ANSWER the arguments I BUILD WITH THAT INFORMATION because you yourself don’t have it!!! That explains why I’ve been having the experience with you that I’ve been having, i.e., that of talking to someone who says things which make me think they don’t know much about TOS.

And this is where you’ve lost it.

I will agree with the fact that no, a YouTube clip is not necessarily a full argument in and of itself. BUT, I do believe it is an example of something that feeds into the whole. The example in the clip you yourself provided was a Spock not only WITH emotions, but EXPRESSING them, which is something that you and others here have had a hard time with.

Not to be rude, but I literally had to lead you by the nose though the expression of fondness that was displayed by Spock in a scene that you no doubt have seen several (50) times. This may be why I’ve had some of the issues I’ve had with you in the past, but who can say?… You can say that this did not happen, but then I would ask you to scroll above an reread our interactions.

Post #262 You – “With the effects of the spores disappearing, he was, in other words, coming back to his normal identity as the aloof Vulcan who did not engage in emotional or affectionate behavior. Spock’s normal state of mind is one of emotional inhibition that makes PDA highly unlikely, which is actually consistent with ST.09…”

And of course, this actually was not the case looking at the episode. Without the effects of the spores, he still smiled and affectionately touched her face, as seen in the clip. You cannot deny that. And once you noticed it, you seemed to change your position a bit. Even still, the only thing that was needed in terms of TOS tying into this new universe and an ALTERNATIVE version of Spock, was the fact that those kinds of feelings and that kind of expression were possible with the character, and you yourself linked to it. So no, the transporter scene in ST09 was not unlikely for a younger version of Spock that had made different choices in life based somewhat off of different experiences.

Getting back to the Youtube clip being and example of something that feeds into and informs one of the whole. “The whole,” in this case, is the state of the character. In that one scene, we know something about Spock. We know that he feels things, and that he is capable of feeling that kind of an attraction/fondness for a woman. We also know that he is capable of expressing those feelings in a physical way through touching. If that were the only moment of Spock doing that in the entire series, then it would be enough.

Now this is just my opinion, but I disagree with you about “If you don’t know that information or how it relates to the history of the franchise and why things turned out the way that they did, then you really can’t ANSWER the arguments I BUILD WITH THAT INFORMATION because you yourself don’t have it!!!”

Here is why I do not agree with what you have said here about Spock and emotion: If I need to see the entire series to understand a character, then that series has failed. Point blank. That would be like saying that in order for me to know someone, then I would have to have known them for their entire lives, which isn’t true. It’s the moments that matter, and it’s the moments that define who we are. In one moment, the right moment, you can learn all you need to know about someone and who they are. Does that mean you know their entire past, no. But, then, you don’t need to, the same way I don’t need to watch all of TOS to know what I need to know about Spock. Do I have all of the details that you have? No. But, then again, I don’t need to. That moment alone shows us that the character possesses the ability to have feelings for a woman, and the ability to act on those feelings through impulsive touch. Did those feelings change the fact that he had a job to get back to and a chosen path in life? No, they didn’t. And that’s perfectly fine for TOS, but ST09 is not TOS, and Uhura is not Leila. That was my point.

Les Miserables is not the French Revolution, although it ties into it, and the French Revolution is not Les Miserables, although it has an affect in the story that is being told. The same way that ST09 is not set in the Prime universe, Les Mis is not set in the Prime time period of the French Revolution. Again, these are two separate stories. You keep wanting them to be the same in places they are not. In this case, I felt that using your examples was quite fitting because of how well they work. And that is all.

This really shouldn’t even require explanation. You don’t read a few chapters of a book and then argue like you have a better understanding of the total case the author is making than you do.

So now you are likening yourself to an author, which would be the writers for the show?? o_O

Good greif. :-/ And before you say that’s not what you just did, it is.

The authors of TOS are not making any arguments here, and one of the authors of ST09, who has made arguments here hasn’t been someone I’ve argued with, especially when it comes to a “case” that he’s making. You are right about the fact that this should not require an explanation.

I think that I am finished with the not-so-merry-go-’round that discussing anything with you becomes. Nothing ever comes of it besides it being a huge waste of time. From now on, I’m done.

Thanks

_______________

351. Keachick – rose pinenut (F) – February 2, 2012

S/U Fan – you need to re-read your response to VulcanFilmCritic’s observations.

No, I don’t, but I’m going to hear you out anyway.

It was you who compared VFC’s observations to the Stepford wives. What if VFC’s observations actually turned out to be fairly accurate assessment of Kirk fans within the English speaking western world? Since when does the description above make these people seem like Stepford wives, given what the story line of the Stepford Wives is about? Why did you even mention the Stepford wives? What made you even think, let alone, write it?

Keachick, as soon as I read VFC’s post, I believe I understood it for what it was. I do not believe that his/her “observations” have any basis in reality, much like NCM so wisely stated. If you do, then that’s you. I do find it interesting, though, that while I took issue with both descriptions of “fans,” you only seemed to have a problem when I mentioned what the “Kirk Fan” description reminded me of and sounded like to me. Hmm… Okay.

I honestly think that the intent of VFC’s post (and VFC, feel free to be ‘shocked and applalled) was to either instigate an argument/split between fan groups and/or just bash Spock and/or Nimoy fans.

- Just a second:

And VFC, I’ll just preemptively respond to any “Oh, how dare you! That’s not what I was doing. It was really just my ‘observations’ and such…” you might reply with and say that I’m calling BS on that. I just am. I am not going to argue over what you say your observations are, just like I wasn’t before.

- Okay, Keachick, back to us:

I think you read the “Kirk Fan” description and thought it was favorable, and of course a few things match you, like you still having a few blonde hairs, and so you bought into it. And here we are. VFC’s description DID sound like Stepford wives in terms of uniformity, always perky, always the same… If you don’t see it that way, then that’s you and that’s okay, but that’s how it sounded to me. I can’t change that.

It wasn’t VFC who attempted to pigeon-hole Kirk fans. You did and just from reading someone’s observations and impressions she got about a group of people. What has your standing up for women’s rights got to do with anything here? This appears to be the very opposite.

Sadly, Keachick, in defending VFC’s “observations,” you have just pigeon-holed yourself. That was the very thing I was trying to combat, but again, here we are…

What I was “standing up” for was the individuality of women, as fans, and otherwise. Like I hinted at before, and know for a fact, not ALL Kirk fans, or even all Kirk fans that go to convention, are just as VFC described. Women have fought to not be typed, or in your words, “pigeon-holed” for a long time, and that can happen in a number of ways, but me stating what someone’s “observations” sound like to me is not one of them.

Perhaps it is possible that real blondes (not some fake bleached brunette) may actually have a tendency to have a more positive outlook on life, have a greater sense of humour and as a result appear more confident, and share similar preferences in men (in this case, the Captain Kirk character, as well as, possibly, the actor who plays him) but that does not make them akin to robots simply programmed to please men.

Now you are moving into my “mood ring” theory. Perhaps it is possible that mood rings really do tell people exactly what their emotional state is at any given moment. Maybe people that wear mood rings are more likely to know how they feel at any given time because the rings are always right. This would allow for a decrease in repressed or hidden emotions because the ring is always there as a visual bearer of truth, and so people who wear mood rings are therefore more connected to their emotions which gives rise to a greater likelihood of emotional health. People who routinely wear mood rings are emotionally healthier than those who do not.

Keachick, are you really buying this? Because that’s how you sound.

What I commented on when I first read VFC’s description was how close it was to describing me. It surprised me and has certainly got me more than a little curious. You see…I am one of those blondes.

I know, and I think he/she might have known too…

Perhaps I am overly touchy. It is just that “blondes” have come in for a lot of flack for a long time – dumb blonde, blonde bimbo, blonde scatter-brain, “blondes have more fun”, often really meaning, “blondes make good sluts so you can dump ‘em afterwards” and so it goes on. The irony is that most of these women who play up to this blonde stereotyping are not actually true blondes. They have to use hair dyes from an early age, like their teens. It is quite possible that many of those Kirk fans described weren’t actually real blondes, but there is something that makes them want to have that hair colouring. Perhaps it was colour they had when they were younger, so it makes them look and feel more youthful and that can have a very positive effect in itself. However, for some reason, this hair colouring has also been associated with other silly, childish behavour as well.

Now, this is where you don’t get to have it both ways. The, in your eyes, ‘positive stereotypes’ are okay, but the negatives are pigeon-holing?

And I do think that you are being overly touchy. Blondes are not the only ones that have those kinds of stereotypes. There are the ‘geeky brunettes who never have any fun,’ and the ‘firey red-heads that have hot tempers,’ and so on… Everybody’s got a stereotype against them, but I never heard of the interpretation of “Blondes have more fun” that you gave. My understanding was that it was mainly a marketing ploy, you know, a way to get everyone who isn’t blonde (which is most people) to believe that they are missing out on something, but hey, you get it if you buy a box of ‘XYZ Summer Blonde’ in stores now!… That’s how a lot of marketing works. :-/

As for the rest of you are saying, why do you care about whether or not these ‘observed’ blondes were real blondes anyway? And if they are not all real blondes then it’s the bleach-blondes that are giving real blondes a bad name? Um, yeah, you’re taking this a bit too far for me…

Maybe I should have said that all of the ‘anti-social zoftig gothic teens of a certain age’ were really bottle-brunettes giving real brunettes a bad name…. The thought had never occurred to me. :-/

A recent unfortunate example just perpetuates a notion – on the thread about This Means War and Chris Pine, there is a video of a short interview with him by a (dyed) “blonde” female reporter, who managed to lose it at the end and became an example of the “dumb blonde bimbo”. Chris smiled politely and moved off…
I am a mother of three children and I still have some blonde hairs, my own natural, uncoloured fair hair. I just saw your postings as another sly swipe made against a certain section of the population and a dwindling one at that.

Not a sly swipe, or even a swipe, at all, Keachick. As I mentioned before, I took issue with BOTH ‘observations.’ I don’t think either one is true, and I took offense at both, for my mom (who also likes Spock/Nimoy and the rest of the cast, btw) and myself. The point that putting people in boxes just doesn’t make any sense, especially when the boxes are ridiculously narrow and limited. But, if you want to believe that the stereotypes are accurate, then I’ll be happy to play along. :-)

I guess we have misunderstood and offended each other. I am sorry for that.

So am I.

369. Spock/Uhura Fan - February 11, 2012

I don’t know why this posted twice. :-S

370. Sheri - May 25, 2012

They went to such great detail to find actors who resembled the original characters except her. It would have been nice if they actually had cast someone that looked like Uhura. Just being black isn’t enough!

371. Jemini - May 26, 2012

299. boborci – January 29, 2012
“So an interesting tid bit, I hope, wether anybody liked Uhura/Spock or not is that, though we ran most of our outline by JJ, Alex and I did not tell him we were going to make them an item. We let that be a surprise to everyone in the script. JJ later said those scene were key to his decision to direct the movie.

so JJ Is one of us? I knew that he has good shipping taste ;)

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