Watch: New Star Trek Into Darkness Commercial ‘Go’ + Analysis Of New Shots/Dialog | TrekMovie.com
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Watch: New Star Trek Into Darkness Commercial ‘Go’ + Analysis Of New Shots/Dialog April 19, 2013

by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Marketing/Promotion,Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

A new domestic Star Trek Into Darkness television commercial is now avaialble. You can watch that below plus see analysis of the new bits images and dialog from the commercial.      

 

 

New Star Trek Into Darkness US Commercial ‘Go’

Here is the brand new commercial for Star Trek Into Darkness. This is an early online version – it isn’t clear if it is airing yet. We only have SD version but there are new bits of the movie so check it out.

Analysis  (SPOILERS)

 

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The trailer contains a few new elements, here is a breakdown of what’s new.



USS Enterprise streaks away from Nibiru Volcano

TOS Homage?
This long-distance shot of the USS Enteprise in the clouds is reminscent of a shot from the original Star Trek series episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday." Here is the remastered version of that shot


Carol Marcus (Alice Eve) tells Kirk (Chris Pine)

Dialog

Marcus: You are much cleverer than your reputation suggests.
Kirk: I have a reputation?


Kirk (R) and Harrison (L) prepare to jump from Enterprise to ‘Dreadnought class’ ship

Dialog (voice over)

Kirk: I don’t know what a great captain would do. I only know what I can do.

 

Check out TrekMovie’s other analyses:

 

Thanks to Anton for tip

Comments

1. cpelc - April 19, 2013

Cool. So either alternate take of last quote or he says something like I dont’t know what I’m supposed to do, I don’t know what a great captain would do. I only know what I can do.

2. tony - April 19, 2013

awrsome cant wait for movie

3. JB - April 19, 2013

That shot of the E is reminiscent of “Tomorrow is Yesterday.”

First?

4. Josh C. - April 19, 2013

Are we sure it is Harrison that is jumping with kirk?

5. omegaman - April 19, 2013

Nice!

6. Anthony Pascale - April 19, 2013

Josh, yes…hence spoiler tags

7. spock - April 19, 2013

looks like tomorrow is yesterday, totally agree WOW

8. Spock Jenkins - April 19, 2013

So Carol Marcus IS English ( for some reason ).

9. Aix - April 19, 2013

Ooooh. More Alice Eve for the US market because… blonde and beautiful! *Uhura eye-roll*

Anyway, that space jump looks absolutely wicked!

10. Kev - April 19, 2013

Harrison, why would he jump to that ship? I thought he was commanding that ship, okay now that changes things abit.

11. Scott McC - April 19, 2013

Loving what I’m seeing. The shot of the Enterprise zooming away from the volcano had me on my feet and yes JB it’s very “Tomorrow is Yesterday” like. I still have to pinch myself that it’s my beloved Star Trek that is having this much love, attention and money thrown at it. Can’t wait for the 9th here in the UK. Bob Orci if you’re out there…….THANKS, for your role in taking Star Trek to the next level.

12. Ty - April 19, 2013

Whoa. Harrison … hmmmm. Intriguing.

13. Bell - April 19, 2013

Get a grip Aix. What posters has Alice Eve been on? None. All that whining from people about women not getting enough attention in ST is cool as long as its not a white, blond woman? They are both beautiful and Uhura is getting plenty of face time and material. Eve has had barely anything in comparison. She is also an important character. Comments like that are just as annoying as the ones posted about Uhura. If you’re so bothered stop crying and go look at Uhuras character poster again.

14. Bell - April 19, 2013

Do you have a problem with TWO strong female characters? Is she a threat to Uhura somehow? *Carol eye roll*

15. Rick - April 19, 2013

Alice Eve is SMOKING hot. Uhh yea I’d like to see more of that please ;) That body is ridiculous, hope she can act too lol

16. topas - April 19, 2013

do I hear it right that Greenwood’s voice has chainged? the part about not agreeing to rules? Believe it to be spoken calmly last time, now he’s clearly emotional.

17. Aix - April 19, 2013

Oh, 13 and 14! I actually have no issue about Alice Eve and the marketing strategy at all! I think it is really clever and come on, WE HAVE ANOTHER FEMALE CHARACTER! A scientist! And she’s not giving Kirk the time of the day! How great is that?! Chill.

18. BatlethInTheGroin - April 19, 2013

#9: What a ridiculous comment.

19. Craiger - April 19, 2013

Tomorrow is Yesterday is my favorite TOS episode.

20. AyanEva - April 19, 2013

#10 My assumption is that he tricked Kirk into inadvertently helping him commandeer the dreadnaught ship. He’s seen punching the crap out of the crew of the ship (presumably) so I don’t think it’s originally his. Then we see him sitting in the command chair of the ship (presumably), so he somehow got control of it. I think he used Kirk to help him get on the ship and then double-crossed Kirk.

Just a wild guess though. I’m probably wrong.

21. NuFan - April 19, 2013

It looks so small in the atmosphere.

22. eun - April 19, 2013

@9 agreee that it’s eye rollingly predictable to use more of Eve in US marketing (also, acer stuff) she’s a hot woman there is no denying that and who doesn’t want that in a movie? it’s great. marketing should just be taken at face value and first impressions anyway we all know she’s not in the movie just to look hot.

ps i see no uhura-marcus catfight

23. dan - April 19, 2013

Alice Eve talking in her native Brit accent makes perfect sense as the opening of the film is set in London…THIS TIME LINE IS OPEN TO EXPLORE..love it!

24. CanadianShane - April 19, 2013

Harrison is a Jason Bourne and is a product of the Genetic manipulation and like Khan, can trace his origin back to the Eugenics wars..makes me think parts of the Federation are the baddies here.

25. topas - April 19, 2013

@up

“makes me think parts of the Federation are the baddies here”

Of course. You don’t cast Peter Weller to be just a random admiral hosting a briefing… This whole Cumberbatch-hype is just to distract us from the real villain. Surely, Harrison will be an important character, but the main baddie’s performance is yet to be a surprise to us. In the trailers the voiceover has been cut and mixed, taken out of the actual context, paired with visuals that are to make us believe we already know this movie’s antagonist. My bets are on Marcus.

@21
yes, and she does leave a contrail (cirrus aviaticus), which is something new for ST ships/craft operating within an atmosphere (we never saw shuttles or even ships -> NX-01, doing so…)

26. William Bradley - April 19, 2013

Because he is helping Kirk. Just like Khan …

lol

>10. Kev – April 19, 2013
Harrison, why would he jump to that ship? I thought he was commanding that ship, okay now that changes things abit.

27. Bell - April 19, 2013

@17-Ok. Sry it sounded at first like you were annoyed just because Eve was blond and in trailers and taking attention away from Zoe, which isn’t true obviously. I agree, it’s great we have two smart females in the film :)

28. Mad Mann - April 19, 2013

Heh, I like the Trekmovie logo in the corner. Cute.

29. Kodos - April 19, 2013

@25

Agreed. I think Marcus is Section 31, and the dreadnaught is his ship, not Harrison’s.

I’m still undecided about Harrison’s identity. I was leaning toward April, but after reading the prequel comics, that seems too obvious (despite a couple of references we’ve seen to “April’s Gun”). I don’t think he’s Kahn, but he could still be an augment of some sort, perhaps even someone other than Kahn from the Botany Bay.

30. topas - April 19, 2013

@29

Glad to read someone else thinking same terms ;)

In this timeline the ENT events are still very much canon, so the augment story arch may be used without referencing the original TOS BB at all – augments may come from CS12 or be the ones salvaged by Klingons from the BoP wreckage / later used in Divergence/Affliction.

31. tman - April 19, 2013

I still think he is Joaquim, just rewritten as John Harrison since the other guys turned the roles down. I think having a villian you don’t know is more interesting than someone whose flaws you already know unless they turn things on their heads.

32. Michael Hall - April 19, 2013

Well, in truth what made the “Tomorrow is Yesterday” shot so unique and memorable was the novelty of seeing the Enterprise–always assumed to be a creature of deep space–backlit against that sky backdrop. This version, built in an Iowa cornfield, that can even submerge like a submarine and takeoff at a moment’s notice? Not so much.

33. Kodos - April 19, 2013

Joaquim could be interesting, if written right. But in TWOK, he never really struck me as a “genetic superman.” He was written as a “yes man” to Kahn, and so never really seemed menacing in his own right.

34. JB - April 19, 2013

32 – I hear you but it still looks cool.

35. Curious Cadet - April 19, 2013

@29. Kodos,
“(despite a couple of references we’ve seen to “April’s Gun”)”

It’s ONE unsubstantiated reference, and it’s NOT “April’s Gun”. From the only hard evidence we’ve seen, it’s allegedly the “April Giant Gun”. No one has ever confirmed the report of “April’s Gatling Gun”. Meaning, a gun named after April, not one he is personally using. That minor distinction takes a lot of wind out of those April sails …

36. Superman - April 19, 2013

#33:

What if he’s not Khan, but really John Harrison, a genetic superman from the UK?

37. 16309 - April 19, 2013

What if he has nothing to do with Kahn? Whatever will we do? Oh my!

38. CmdrR - April 19, 2013

I still say John Harrison is Marko Ramius.

39. CmdrR - April 19, 2013

I forget. How did we decide you’re supposed to know a Starfleet lady’s rank? Wondering if there are a few ensigns sitting in the big swivel chair giving orders.

40. Theatre Historian - April 19, 2013

They just finished putting up the Giant Into Darkness 1 sheet banner with the Ship crashing to earth, on the front of Hollywood and Highland Center this evening, looks freaking amazing.

41. Theatre Historian - April 19, 2013

29)
Exactly and Weller did say his character had his own ship.

42. Curious Cadet - April 19, 2013

@39. CmdrR,
“I forget. How did we decide you’re supposed to know a Starfleet lady’s rank?”

You have to cut them open and count the rings.

43. SPATAN555 - April 19, 2013

John Harrison is from Section 31. He’s definitely not Khan.

44. Dennis Bailey - April 19, 2013

He’s Khan.

45. JohnRambo - April 19, 2013

Omg the shot with the enterprise leaving the nibiru planet looks so damn good!

I can’t wait any longer:-D

This Movie will simply not disappoint!

46. Marja - April 19, 2013

I love Uhura’s eyeroll right after Kirk’s “I have a reputation?” Great editing :)
————————————————————–
So, wait, #9 Aix was wanky but not #15 Rick?

Glad to see Aix is “forgiven” now

#15, Rick, dude, must you really objectify Eve like that? If I made a similar comment about Quinto, or Keachick about Pine, all the guys would jump all over our objectifying men.

What’s that about?

Just sayin.

47. Marja - April 19, 2013

Anthony, YES! The second I saw the shot of Enterprise in the clouded sky I thought of “Tommorrow is Yesterday” … great homage, Abrams & All!

48. Bell - April 20, 2013

@Marja- I didn’t “forgive” Aix because there was nothing to forgive. It was a misunderstanding. In fact I APOLOGIZED to Aix because of the miscommunication. Where you got that idea I have no clue.

Also Rick saying Alice was hot isn’t anything new, as many guys have been saying the same thing. It wasn’t offensive. She is hot. Big deal.They put that underwear shot in the trailer so guys would have that exact reaction. I (wrongly) thought Aix was complaining about Alice Eve in the trailer because she is pretty blonde and a threat to Uhura’s presence. Again, a misunderstanding. And no one would jump all over you for saying Quinto and Pine are smoking hot with killer bodies! You can, and they are.

49. Rick - April 20, 2013

Surprise, surprise. Marja is looking for a fight again…

You think MEN would jump all over you for saying Quinto or Pine were hot? LOL really? Let’s get real here, we really don’t care. They don’t hire these actors because they are ugly..

Yea, Alice Eve is hot. Yes, I want to see more of her in trailers and the movie, if I get to see her in her underwear as well so be it. Still wanna know about her character and get to see her have some great scientist scenes as well. Why don’t you wait until a guy ACTUALLY says something that is crude or offensive before you unleash the scolding and lectures you are so fond of giving :)

50. Marja - April 20, 2013

Oh, dear me, looking for a fight. Just pointing out uneven perceptions is all.

Well, let me pour oil on troubled waters. If it’s okay for you guys to “comment” on the women, then I’ll go right ahead and comment on the men of Star Trek. One word:

Handsome.

51. Disinvited - April 20, 2013

FWIW:

http://www.pe.com/local-news/columns/mitchell-rosen-headlines/20130417-family-women-still-judged-by-whats-on-outside.ece

”At first I thought it was making a big deal out of nothing, a pile-on for those who hate the president. Then I realized, Obama would not have said “Vice president Joe Biden is by far the best looking vice president” or, “Secretary of State John Kerry is by far the best looking secretary of state.” It is still a good old boys’ club when references to a woman’s worth is punctuated by observations of her sex appeal. He should not have resigned but apologizing to Harris and women everywhere was appropriate.

It’s wonderful when a person is healthy, fit and a good example of physical stamina but that is quite a different observation from how good looking they may be. Being attractive for the way one’s body curves or their skin hangs does not belong on a person’s professional resume. Especially when we are trying to teach our daughters being pretty is not the end goal of growing older. I still have well-meaning people tell me how smart my son is and how attractive they think my daughter may be. It only goes so far to say, “In their generation that’s how people spoke, it’s harmless.”

It’s not harmless, it perpetuates the notion that a woman’s worth or at least 50% of it is determined by sex appeal. Doesn’t matter what generation makes the comment. I remember being at a coffee shop and my then 70 year-old father calling the waitress, “Hun”. Now my father is totally harmless and certainly meant no disrespect but I did notice he did not call the man who threw us peanuts at Dodger Stadium, “Hun.”” – Mitchell Rosen, licensed therapist, THE PRESS ENTERPRISE PE.com, April 17, 2013; 10:45 AM

52. Becca - April 20, 2013

*sigh*Oh boy. Here we go again…

ANYWAYS, I loved the tv spot. I hope we start seeing them more and more as we get closer to May. The more press the better ;)

53. Jack - April 20, 2013

51. Obama calls men good-looking all the time. And that sounds a little smarmy then too. But at least it’s not just women.

54. Aix - April 20, 2013

I must admit that I have misused *uhura eye roll* in my first comment (#9) that caused a bit of a misunderstanding with Bell. But I got that cleared up in my response (#17).

Now with the kerfuffle above, this may just be the perfect time to use it.
*UHURA EYE-ROLL*

55. Keachick - April 20, 2013

Who is talking resumes? The people playing these characters, both males and females, are lovely looking people…

Besides, once we see and hear Carol Marcus, I’m sure it will soon become apparent that she has brains along with beauty. Speaking as a woman, it is the special combination of intelligence and good/OK looks that a man may have that is the biggest turn on and I suspect that similar may apply to a lot of men when it comes to how interested they are in a particular woman. I am speaking for the heterosexual majority here.

As the gay/lesbian minority – very likely, the same.

56. Driver - April 20, 2013

I see images in the clouds. Strrange, bizzarre, crazzy things.

57. chi - April 20, 2013

I love how people on hear twist themselves in knots to try and say Cumberbatch isn the main villain or cant possibly be Khan. I’m going to enjoy the reactions on here when of course you see he is playing Khan.

58. Jack - April 20, 2013

Remember ten or eleven months ago when nearly everybody here was bemoaning the secrecy and lack of marketing and predicting that Into Darkness would bomb because nobody would know about it by May, 2013?

59. Uncle Protein - April 20, 2013

@8 Great that Carol Marcus is English;

English women are very sexiful!

60. Spock Jenkins - April 20, 2013

@59

Yeah, Alice Eve is awesome. I’m just keen to find out why they made the decision to make her character English ( especially when her father is still American ).

Sure, I know they will try and justify it when the movie comes out, but Eve can do an American accent, so having her play an established American character as English seems random.

61. Killamarshtrek - April 20, 2013

@35 CC

Finally, you’re calling it hard evidence!

62. DJT - April 20, 2013

Summary of novel ‘Dreadnought’ by Diane Carey

“A prototype starship is stolen by a conspiracy of Starfleet officers. An admiral insists on taking his personal flagship and accompanying the Enterprise to apprehend the stolen starship, where it turns out that the new starship was stolen not to start a war, but to prevent one. The crew of the Enterprise and the hijackers must work together to foil a plot by the admiral to use this new ship to begin a military coup of the Federation.”

Something tells me Harrison might actually be trying to stop Marcus. Not the other way around. Hence Harrison and Kirk space jumping to the Dreadnought. I think that the Khan element will be the ending scene with a lead up to the threequel.

Oh yeah, and Alice even in that Science uniform is …most acceptable.

63. cugel the clever - April 20, 2013

8 Spock Jenkins – April 19, 2013
So Carol Marcus IS English ( for some reason ).

HAHA – this comment indicates that the poster knows nothing about even the most basic concepts of the Star Trek philosophy.

Why is it unusual that an English (I suppose you mean resident of the UK) person would be a crew member of the Enterprise. Do you think that Star Fleet is an arm of the United States military?

Newsflash… in the Star trek universe, the earth has a united world government and people of all nationalities (and even aliens) are crewmembers. You need to take a beginners course in Star Trek 101.

64. Curious Cadet - April 20, 2013

@61. Killamarshtrek,
“Finally, you’re calling it hard evidence!”

I always said the alleged “April Giant Gun” sound file was the ONLY actual evidence we had indicating anything to do with April in the movie. It’s still dodgy given that it is not entirely legible, but considering April features in the comics as a weapons supplier to one side of civil war, had Marcus for an XO who is now and admiral with a weapons expert for a daughter and covered for April’s “death”, I’d say yeah, it probably does say “April Giant Gun”. But that’s it. And nothing about it suggests for a moment to me that April is in the movie, much less uses said gun himself.

In fact, if I had to concoct a use for that name in the movie, it would be when the dreadnought appears and opens fire with that giant railgun. I can see Marcus saying something like “Bring the April gun online! This one’s for you Robert … Fire!”.

65. thomoz - April 20, 2013

The last couple trailers have all been gloom and doom, this one was more upbeat – and what a relief. I was worried they were going to only market this film the other way.

66. Get a life - April 20, 2013

He’s NOT Kahn!!! (Jumping up and down like a 5-year old) He’s Gary Mitchell!!! *Spock eye-roll*

67. Curious Cadet - April 20, 2013

@63. cugel the clever,
“Newsflash…You need to take a beginners course in Star Trek 101.”

Maybe you need to take that course. Carol Marcus as seen in TWOK is NOT British (or at least does not speak with an English accent). So paraphrasing Spock Jenkins original post, for some reason in this universe she is or does. And as Anthony originally reported when this story first broke, and has been noted here in other comments, Alice Eve does a good American accent. So this is yet another mystery to be solved by the film. If you had been following along this story at all, you would know that there has been some debate as to whether she was speaking with an English accent or not, and this additional footage confirms that.

As for your harsh reprisal, I would say it is you who know nothing about even the most basic concepts of the Star Trek philosophy. Might want to take a refresher course before you jump down someone’s throat again without having all your facts.

68. NCC-73515 - April 20, 2013

I wonder why there is so much talk about the Giant Gun and nobody discusses the seatbelts :p

69. drumvan - April 20, 2013

@1 Cool. So either alternate take of last quote or he says something like I dont’t know what I’m supposed to do, I don’t know what a great captain would do. I only know what I can do.
________________________________________________________

it sounds like they deliberately spliced two different pieces of dialogue together there. i hope they stick with the version we’ve heard in the past. it was more powerful.

love the enterprise volcano shot! these have to be the touches that bob and damon bring to the table. with their nods to t.o.s. past. well done!!!

70. Phil - April 20, 2013

I have a reputation….cue Uhura eye roll. Played for comic relief, but I’m guessing that service organizations that continue to struggle with integrating women into their ranks will groan with this subtle nod toward harassment….

71. Spock Jenkins - April 20, 2013

@67 Thank You, I couldn’t really have put it better myself.

@63 Your lack of Star Trek speaks volumes so I don’t really have to answer that issue any further. I wasn’t having a go at Star Trek for including Brits ( British crew-members have been part of Star Fleet since the original series: Lieutenant – later Commander -Kyle for example ), just noting the change in Carol Marcus’ accent for this new movie.

The chip on your shoulder is borne out of something else I suspect.

Oh, I’m from England by the way, just in case you were wondering.

72. richpit - April 20, 2013

Does Carol Marcus *really* say “cleverer”?? That’s not a word.

73. Scottevill - April 20, 2013

71 – Don’t tell that to the Brits! They say “cleverer” all the time.

74. Spock Jenkins - April 20, 2013

@71
Yeah, “Smarter” would have been a better choice – who knows, that version of the scene might not even bee in the final movie, as is often the case with clips from trailers.

75. LordGarth - April 20, 2013

He is Garth , formerly of Izar.

76. Ctrl-Opt-Del - April 20, 2013

@63. cugel the clever – April 20, 2013 – “You need to take a beginners course in Star Trek 101.” And, apparently, you need to watch Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan & listen to Bibi Besch’s performance of a clearly American sounding Carol Marcus. Then you’ll understand why this is so strange (especially as an early draft of the previous movie apparently included showing that Kirk & Marcus grew-up near to each-other in Iowa and were childhood friends).

77. Ctrl-Opt-Del - April 20, 2013

@71 & @72 – We (Alice Eve & myself) are English, because we are from England; the language is called English, because it is from England; ergo, we have a veto.

And that’s why the British are clevererer than the Americans B-|

78. FlywithSean - April 20, 2013

So a few weeks ago I posted this and I am still sticking to my theory that Harrison is a good guy. This was based on the bad robot variant preview.

99. flywithsean – March 23, 2013
Ok after many times watching all these previews I have a theory.

The real bad guy/guys is not Harrison but rather high ranking officials from Starfleet. Harrison while looking to be the bad guy during the previews is not. This is a total misdirection from the previews. Harrison may be misguided in his decision on how to stop them, but I don’t believe this is a classic revenge movie.

Here are some reasons why

1. “You think your world is safe it is an illusion enjoy these final moments of peace.” – So step back from that and see it from the angle of him describing what he is trying to reveal to everyone else. Something he knows and wants everyone else to know

2. The top agent who caused the bombing in London was not Harrison but they make it look that way in the preview because right after Weller says that they show Harrison in the ship

3. “Your commanders have committed a crime I can not forgive” So I again say someone high up in starfleet or many in starfleet are guilty of something. They are the true bad ones.

4. “Have I got your attention now” Sounds like this was said after explaining to Kirk whats going on. Not after attacking as some uber bad guy

5. Kirk talking about Vendettas and going after Harrison but then on the ship he says he has no idea what he is supposed to do only what he can do. Sounds to me like he just found out that his superiors are lying to him and that Harrison isnt the bad guy he was made out to be.

6. “You have no idea what you have done” I see this as a Kirk being told he is following the wrong leader and is jeopardizing something. Maybe peace with the Klingons

7. If he is such a ultimate danger why is he allowed to monologue on the bridge when he was held in the brig. It’s because he was let out when he was seen as not being the bad guy.

8. When Harrison is surrounded by the red shirts he has Spock and Kirk behind him in tow. Looks to me like the red shirts are for protection and not escorting Harrison.

Also the hand scene from a previous trailer could be Harrison and Spock is holding his hand out because he is thankful for whatever Harrison did.

Call me crazy if you want but we are being fooled by these previews. Bad guy will turn out to be Weller or even Pike. There is kind of a hint at this at the end of part 2 of the comic for “Return of the Archons”

I await everyones input

Also I want them to do Khan but with Faran Tahir (Captain Robau) as Khan. I don’t think there is any other choice. And no in this day and age a Latino will not play a Sikh from Northern India.

79. J - April 20, 2013

I wouldn’t call that a “homage”. That’s a stretch. A “similarity” – I’ll give you that.

80. Curious Cadet - April 20, 2013

@73. LordGarth,
“He is Garth , formerly of Izar.”

I don’t disagree, especially if he turns out to be the bad guy after all.

What if following Nero’s incursion there was a swell of Xenophobia and Garth, being from Izar changed his name to better fit into Starfleet, otherwise passing himself off as a human (like so many immigrants to the US). Garth was a highly decorated officer until his injury and subsequent dive into insanity in the Prime universe. And we have no idea whether the humanoids from Izar have regular human strength, or more Vulcan-like strength. After all, Kirk couldn’t defeat him, unlike the superior Khan whom he handily defeated. So Garth pursues this alternate career path as John Harrison, becomes unhinged at some injustice he perceives and goes on a rampage, whereupon he restores his given name and appends the title “Lord” to it as he succumbs to his insanity. Perhaps once he is firmly in control of the dreadnought. And he would be an excellent candidate to be working in conjunction with Marcus given his Prime philosophies, assuming Marcus is attempting to wage war to cleanse the galaxy of it’s foes. Garth was very smart, charismatic, persuasive, and an explosives expert. I don’t know, they could do worse with the setup they’ve given us so far … For instance, Khan.

81. Disinvited - April 20, 2013

#78. Curious Cadet – April 20, 2013

Whoa! Did you really mean to imply that so many immigrants to the US aren’t human?

82. Curious Cadet - April 20, 2013

@76. FlywithSean,

God bless you for making a reasoned, intelligent argument based on actual facts and not wild speculation.

I totally agree it could go this way.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if its a double-switch-a-roo. In other words, everybody thinks Harrison is the bad guy going in, turns out he’s not a bad guy, audience is surprised, then it turns out he really is a bad guy just using Kirk to achieve his nefarious goals, audience is surprised again. He might even pull a triple switcheroo and redeem himself once he finds his plan in ruin and himself dying … Unlike Khan or Nero. A triple surprise for the audience.

Admiral Marcus and a shadow faction of Starfleet are absolutely involved is something sinister, as that is the only way Harrison could manage such subterfuge. And it’s definitely Marcus, not Pike (who answers to Marcus). However, in Kirk’s eyes Pike will look to be complicit because he “knew” about something Harrison reveals to Kirk. Whether this happens before or after Pike’s death is another matter.

At this point, I think Abrams has done a masterful job of making the movie completely unpredictable. Whatever happens in the theater, I will be surprised, because it could go either way at this point.

83. Curious Cadet - April 20, 2013

@79. Disinvited,
“Whoa! Did you really mean to imply that so many immigrants to the US aren’t human?”

If we are to believe Men in Black, yes. Haha (no, change their names to better fit in)

84. NCC-73515 - April 20, 2013

If Harrison is a good guy, why does he punch Kirk and Spock? Why does he attack SFHQ during a meeting? I’m thinking that he thinks of himself as the good guy, but he’s not… kinda like Leyton!

85. George Zip - April 20, 2013

“Also I want them to do Khan but with Faran Tahir (Captain Robau) as Khan. I don’t think there is any other choice. And no in this day and age a Latino will not play a Sikh from Northern India.”

Thank you; I get tired of people forgetting this. I do love Montalban’s performance (both in TOS and TWOK) but this is an oft-overlooked fact.

(It was like when Rex Harrison played King Mongkut; he’s a great actor but that just doesn’t work anymore.)

86. George Zip - April 20, 2013

#82 * “If Harrison is a good guy, why does he punch Kirk and Spock?”

Point of order: Spock tried to choke Kirk in the 2009 Trek.

87. Fascinoma - April 20, 2013

There are way too many Indian and Middle Eastern actors who could play Khan.

The reason I don’t buy Harrison as Khan is that Abrams’ casting choices so far haven’t involved race bending and he’s gone as far as to cast a Scot as Scotty and a Russian as Chekov. It just isn’t consistent with what Abrams has already done to racebend Khan.

88. Weerd1 - April 20, 2013

This Enterprise doesn’t do anything we haven’t seen previous starships do. Even the NX-01 could operate in liquid, and does so in the pilot episode. The classic Enterprise hit a BLACK HOLE at WARP 8. If that didn’t rip it apart, a little atmospheric turbulence certainly shouldn’t.

89. Craiger - April 20, 2013

I don’t get the whole aliens seeing the Enterprise thing. What’s wrong with seeing the Enterprise as a GOD? I have been watching Ancient Aliens on History Channel and H2. The Ancient Astronaut theories say the Aliens visited and interacted with Humans in the past and they were interpreted as GOD’s. They say Ancient Human’s witness spaceships battling each other in the sky and in orbit.

90. Disinvited - April 20, 2013

#85. Fascinoma – April 20, 2013

What the hell is “race bending”? If I understand your distasteful contentions you would object to Abrams hiring an Hispanic to play an African character?

91. Classy M - April 20, 2013

@85 – Simon Pegg is English, not Scottish.

92. KHAAAN, the weasel - April 20, 2013

@89: Well, at least he has a Scottish wife ;)

93. Fascinoma - April 20, 2013

“Race bending” is when a character’s race is either rewritten (such as when the African American character in the book “The Postman” was portrayed by Kevin Costner in the movie) or someone is cast as someone as a different race (like the Asian characters in “Avatar: The Last Airbender” being portrayed by white people in the live action movie).

And oops, my bad about Simon Pegg. Still, my initial point stands, because Abrams’ casting decisions up to this point have consistently not been in the direction of racebending, and having an English guy play a Scot isn’t on the level of having an English white guy play a Punjabi. And I can’t see a Latino actor being cast as Khan now, not with as many Indian actors being better known than were in the 60s.

94. PaulB - April 20, 2013

#87–Huh? First, your comment made no sense. Second, what little sense it makes it nonsense. Ancient astronauts? You don’t really believe that stuff, do you? And if so…what’s your point?

95. Unwanted - April 20, 2013

@91. Or Kingpin is played by Michael Clarke Duncan in Daredevil, when the character has always been caucasian in the comics. Or in Man of Steel Daily Planet Editor Perry White is played by Laurence Fishburne, while the comic book version of Perry has always been caucasian.

I could go on but really, what you are talking about happens all the time, and shouldn’t be an issue when it does, race is just a label, and absolutely meaningless, people are people no matter where they come from or what they look like.

To quote James Kirk. “Everyone’s human”

96. NCC-73515 - April 20, 2013

So they could make Kirk a girl and Uhura a Norse man, right? :p
Maybe the story was rewritten after del Toro walked out and before Cumberbatch walked in?

97. Asiansarentthesame - April 20, 2013

@Fascinoma, your point is mute as JJ already cast a Korean as a Japanese character.

98. Keachick - April 20, 2013

“Then you’ll understand why this is so strange (especially as an early draft of the previous movie apparently included showing that Kirk & Marcus grew-up near to each-other in Iowa and were childhood friends).”

First of all, this early draft did not make it into Star Trek canon and if I remember correctly, I believe that the prime Jim and Carol met around the time that either both or he were training at the Starfleet Academy. Yes, Carol Marcus played by Bibi Besch did have an American accent, but I don’t think we were told who that Carol Marcus’s parents were and who her extended family were.

Second, this Carol Marcus, like Kirk and others, are in an alternate universe, so, yes, this time round, it could have been quite possible for this Carol Marcus to have brought up in England and have an English, as opposed to an American, accent.

99. Curious Cadet - April 20, 2013

@96. NCC-73515,
“So they could make Kirk a girl”

How about a gay man. That probably wouldn’t go over so well now would it?

100. Classy M - April 20, 2013

@96 – I’m having a dim recollection of a Star Trek novel (circa 1970s) in which a transporter accident turned Kirk into a woman. I think Uhura became a man. In hindsight, it was an incredibly sexist story (one of the plot points involved Spock not calling Kirk ‘Captain’ because, well, he was a woman. Oh, and Kirk was too short for his feet to reach the floor when he sat in the Captain’s chair.) Anyone else remember what that was called and who wrote it?

101. Weerd1 - April 20, 2013

@100 It was in a collection of short stories called “Star Trek: New Voyages 2″ edited my Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath.

102. Classy M - April 20, 2013

That was it! Thanks, Weerd1. I seem to remember the first volume was the superior one, but it’s been a decade or three since I read it.

103. Curious Cadet - April 20, 2013

@95. Unwanted,
“I could go on but really, what you are talking about happens all the time, and shouldn’t be an issue when it does, race is just a label, and absolutely meaningless, people are people no matter where they come from or what they look like.”

But we’re not talking about people, we’re talking about iconic characters.

Superman could be played by Will Smith, but it’s not likely anybody would accept that. James Bond could be played by Tom Cruise, but it’s not likely anybody would accept that either.

Making Kirk from a different race wouldn’t change the character at all, but my guess is the fans wouldn’t accept it. However, general audiences might. Then again they might not.

At the end of the day, these characters exist as part of a franchise and changing the most iconic ones can be risky. It’s not Shakespeare yet. But even Shakespeare you can’t just go changing out Richard III with a person of another race without taking significant artistic license. However, in almost all cases, the minor characters can be switched around. Chekov could have been a woman. McCoy could have been of a different race. The same for Scotty. Who would have cared? But at some point all these changes start messing with established character. Khan, was play very successfully by Ricardo Montalban. Khan is almost as iconic as Kirk thanks to TWOK. I’m not sure audiences would get playing him as a completely different race. Maybe. But as producer and a studio, why take the risk?

That being said, Abrams has done absolutely NOTHING toward shaking up the ethnic diversity. This is by far the whitest, malest, principle cast I have seen in Star Trek since TOS went off the air. Keeping that in mind, why would you intentionally choose a white actor to play an established, iconic, non-white character? Especially when there is no history of this particular director doing that.

The fact is, we do live in a world affected by race. Given that Khan is generally accepted by fans everywhere as a Northern Indian with certain darker skin traits thanks to Montalban being cast originally, how refreshing would it be to actually cast someone with that ethnic heritage, or non-white background to play that role, to show some racial diversity in Hollywood, rather than cast yet another white actor for whom parts are otherwise plentiful?

Assuming this part ever was Khan, which I doubt, it has most assuredly been rewritten with Cumberbatch playing a character that has no racial baggage whatsoever.

104. I Am Morg Not Eymorg - April 20, 2013

@ 62. DJT:

Could be, could be. I also think some elements from two other Diane Carey Star Trek novels may well be in the mix. Final Frontier and Best Destiny.

105. Son of Jello - April 20, 2013

72 richpit

It actually is a real word it only looks made up:). And it makes you soud like a car that wont turn over when you say it.

106. Di1701 - April 20, 2013

In press releases it is said that John Harrison tears the Enterprise family apart and they must find new depth in their connection to each other. Khan is not capable of psychic manipulation, he is just a “superior” human. However, it sounds like John Harrison can psychically and psychologically do damage as well as physical damage.

Garth is a shape shifter and capable of this but in TOS, he had started off as a starship captain and only became “more” after nearly dying. Gary Mitchell became a “god” who could manipulate matter and people.

Then there is Charlie X, a formidable enemy. Remember he broke Spock’s legs with his mind power and made Spock quote “Tiger, tiger in the night…” He is capable of psychological and psychic torture, teasing, bad jokes, and hatred. He’s psychotic.

John Harrison could not (or should not), possibly be Khan; to change Khan’s origin (not India considering Harrison’s blue eyes), is a bad and needless divergence from TOS.

I vote for Charlie X as John Harrison, who escaped from his alien guardians and joined Star Fleet, but I’ll settle for Gary Mitchell or Garth, not Khan..

107. Disinvited - April 20, 2013

#93. Fascinoma – April 20, 2013

I can’t find that in any known English language reference dictionary. The closest is the unofficial:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=race-bending

“Someone either female or male who believes that by association with another race i.e friendship or relationship it gives them a higher understanding of what it means to be that ethnicity. This appears in forms such as cultural, style, religion, slang.”

I believe the uncoined word you are attempting to use is “racebending.”

But to go with your nonsense:

Under your reasoning, Zoe Saldana, a United States’ citizen of Puerto Rican and Dominican ethnicity, is disqualified from playing Uhura which THE STAR TREK CONCORDANCE says is an African.

Simon Pegg, you already noted.

Asiansarentthesame has noted John Cho, a Korean, was hired by Abrams to play Sulu.

Your concern is pointless.

108. Disinvited - April 20, 2013

#103. Curious Cadet – April 20, 2013

It is a point of historical fact that the first actor to play Bond was a United States citizen by birth, i.e. an American like Cruise:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casino_Royale_(Climax!)

and he didn’t affect an English accent either.

109. NCC-73515 - April 20, 2013

99. Curious Cadet
“How about a gay man.”

That would be in the range of plausible changes in the timeline due to a stressful preterm birth, for example. Changing the origins of characters that were born before 2233.04 would however contradict canon.

110. GeorgiaCarolina - April 20, 2013

I am really ready to see this movie, mainly because hopefully it will give people something better to talk about other than the ethnicity of actors chosen to portray fictional characters. Seriously the arguing and over analysis of everything about this movie is really getting asinine. Go to the movie and enjoy it or stay home. There are really more important things going on in the world.

111. Aurore - April 20, 2013

“…Given that Khan is generally accepted by fans everywhere as a Northern Indian with certain darker skin traits thanks to Montalban being cast originally…”
___________

He played many different roles* ( Cuban, Brazilian, French, Argentinian, Indian, Japanese…) .

Online, I heard/read comments about Ricardo Montalbán being a ‘person of colour’.

However, unless I’m mistaken, the “darker skin traits” , in Space Seeds, were, to a large extent, due to make-up…

*
(Starts at 20 : 23 . But, as I’ve said before, in my opinion, the whole interview is worth it…even if I don’t agree with what he says about Khan’s nationality, at some point.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b1xi414MLI

112. Theatre Historian - April 20, 2013

I had a nice little surprise waiting for me when I arrived to work today, A gift bag brought back for me with goodies from cinemacon including a Into Darkness Long Sleeve T-shirt, Into Darkness Flash light and a Into Darkness 44 oz cup.

113. Theatre Historian - April 20, 2013

110) Thanks for posting that video Aurore,
One of the many interesting things from it was that the studio wanted him to change his name to “Ricky Martin”

114. Curious Cadet - April 20, 2013

@108. Disinvited
“It is a point of historical fact that the first actor to play Bond was a United States citizen by birth, i.e. an American like Cruise: …and he didn’t affect an English accent either.”

Are you kidding me with that? I mean what’s your point? That Tom Cruise could be cast as Bond for the next movie and it would be perfectly acceptable? Did you even read the Wikipedia article you linked to?

Of course forgettable Barry Nelson didn’t affect an English Accent, the character of Bond had been adapted for American audiences, and indeed was an American agent named “Jimmy Bond”. And this forgettable one hour production, the first ever adaptation of Bond was lost for decades until a historian uncovered it. Moreover, it was based on the US version of Flemings first Bond novel that while sold well in the UK was turned down by at least three US publishers before one agreed to publish it, after which it sold poorly, they even tried retitling it and changed Bond’s name to “Jimmy” to boost sales. The one hour production was ignored by the American public and nothing ever came of it.

And you’re telling me that after 50 years and 25 of some of the worlds top grossing films all featuring British actors, that this iconic quintessentially British character could be replaced with Tom Cruise and accepted by audiences, because the very first failed and forgotten misguided attempt starred an American actor playing Bond — as an American?

I mean seriously what is your point?

115. Red Dead Ryan - April 20, 2013

Tom Cruise can’t even act as a piece of wood. Casting him as James Bond would be as bad, if not worse, than Val Kilmer and George Clooney were as Batman!

116. Coastie - April 20, 2013

I can’t believe nobody has responded to 62’s post. I think 62 just broke the story. That makes perfect sense, and sounds like an awesome plot.

On another unrelated note — I can’t stand the new Uhura. The eye roll thing in the trailer … she’s just irritating. As an officer, she is very insubordinate .. show some respect for your captain … this isn’t high school student council here.. I understand Star Trek isn’t meant to be as militaristic as today’s military, but still, act as an officer, not a bratty sorority girl. Rant done.

117. Aurore - April 20, 2013

@ 112. Theatre Historian – April 20, 2013

Don’t mention it!
He is such an amazing man.

I love these kinds of interviews, where actors, writers etc talk about their craft!

I always did.

:)

118. Jack - April 20, 2013

Read Dreadnaught years ago. I’d expect a lot of folks here read it. Some parts fit this (pretty standard Pegasus-style story). I’m thinking this runs a lot deeper than that. It’s been hinted at like crazy, in the comics, that there’s a bunch of weird sh* t going on, and this ship and special crew add to that. So far, a lot of the conspiracy-theory stuff — secret super-soldiers, secret weapons and ships, secret mind-control expirements, weird promotions of patsies, etc. etc — all seems to be there. Hopefully there’s more to it.

119. Aurore - April 20, 2013

@ Theatre Historian.

Regarding my post (@116).

…Yes, I speak of him in the present tense…I do the same with many other actors too incidentally… like with Barbara Stanwyck, for instance…

:)

120. Son of Jello - April 20, 2013

115 Coastie

Im going to go with it being a response to reading all the post written about her. (Im a bit disapointed she didnt like my Joke about the break up of her and spock). :) :)

121. Marja - April 20, 2013

115 Coastie,

Well, heck, Jim Kirk was insubordinate as a cadet, as a stowaway aboard the Enterprise, and will now be as a Captain, so …?

122. Phil - April 20, 2013

@99. You mean he’s not?

123. Mark - April 20, 2013

@coastie- well we don’t really know that she’s rolling her eyes at him, it could be two different scenes. Plus they want Uhura to be sassy, however..

@marja- if she IS rolling her eyes at him it is very disrespectful. Kirk would never roll his eyes at Pike. I know you will defend Uhura no matter what, but that’s the truth.

124. jojo - April 20, 2013

122. Mark

“if she IS rolling her eyes at him it is very disrespectful. Kirk would never roll his eyes at Pike”

Maybe she is giving Kirk back as much disrespect as he gave Spock in the last movie since Kirk had no problem disrespecting Spock while he was the captain. But I don’t think she is responding to Kirk in that scene.We will not know the subject of her exasperation until we see the movie (although my guess is that it’s Spock that she is responding to).

125. Coastie - April 20, 2013

@123 … there are a lot of insubordinate interactions with this new trekverse crew and just kind of irritates me … the original cast never seemed to act with animosity or disrespect towards each other that I can think of … I guess I just can’t let go of the old days still

126. Phil - April 20, 2013

Trek in general has been really loose on protocol, so lets not read to much into this. Cadet Kirk was insubordinate to Spock, his superior officer for most of the last movie, even going so far as to attempt to grab a weapon from security. I’d think that attempting to force control of a ship by force of arms is still mutiny in the 23rd century, too. Despite all this, command was still awarded to Kirk. Definitely don’t want to read too much into this….

127. Mark - April 20, 2013

123.jojo- yea but Kirk was following the previous captains (pike) orders, which was to come and get him from the Narada. The second time he knew he had to be disrespectful to get a reaction from Spock.

I do agree though, I don’t think Uhura was responding to Kirk with the eye roll.

128. jojo - April 20, 2013

@124

Yeah, I agree. Maybe all the high school stuff will settle down after this movie, and we can get to a more familiar and mature rhythm with this crew.. Although I will say, for me personally, it doesn’t bother me. It’s interesting to see these characters evolution from such a hectic start to the cohesive crew we know and love.

129. Curious Cadet - April 20, 2013

@110. Aurore,
“However, unless I’m mistaken, the “darker skin traits” , in Space Seeds, were, to a large extent, due to make-up…”

I believe John Tenuto clarified that the casting of Montalban necessitated the change from a Scandinavian character to an Indian character, and the physical traits assigned to Khan were specifically to accommodate Montalban’s darker complexion, which as you correctly infer was in part due to makeup but mostly due to Montalban’s robust tan which likely helped earn him all those roles playing characters of “color”. It’s obvious in his interview that Montalban is of European ancestry by his light natural skin tone. Indeed as was pointed out by someone else on this site, he is a perfect example of the kind of Indo-European ancestry one might find in Northern India.

So interestingly enough, Montalban actually works with or without the makeup and tan. Cumberbatch on the other hand, could not be further off the mark, and indeed had to die his hair to play the part for some reason. Curious that “makeup” is still being used to modify an actors appearance in order to effectively play a role that otherwise does not seem to require any, however in this case I hope it is merely to help distinguish the bad guy from the good and the similar coloring he shares with Pine, rather than evoke an ethnicity he is not.

Nevertheless while Cumberbatch would have made a great original Scandinavian version of what became Khan, that’s not how history played out. The iconic character that is Khan is meant to be a darker skinned person of Indo-European descent. The irony is not lost on me that just as the character was changed to match the best actor cast for the part, so too Cumberbatch is apparently stepping into shoes of a character allegedly meant to be played by Benecio Del Torro, the physical traits of which have likely changed to accommodate Cumberbatch. But Del Torro is also of European Spanish ancestry, likely very similar to Montalban’s background, so perfectly capable of playing a Northern Indian Indo-European role as well, not that I am for minute suggesting he was being cast to play Khan either. He also does a perfect American accent, and I believe has played ostensibly white characters. So Cumberbatch may not be that different a choice depending on who the character actually turns out to be.

I have said before and say again that the choice of Del Toro and Cumberbatch has more to do with the sharp focus on international marketing being given this film over the last. And I would bet few if any white/American actors were ever seriously considered for the part, as the only such actors who would otherwise fill the need for international purposes would be outside the scope of the film’s budget and likely overshadow Pine anyway.

130. jojo - April 20, 2013

@ 126

I hear you Mark, but we will have to agree to disagree on these characters actions, interactions, and reasons regarding the disrespect shown to superior officers. I do wish they would stop having Saldana’s character do that eye-roll sassy thing though. It doesn’t suit the character of Uhura at all.

131. Disinvited - April 21, 2013

#113. Curious Cadet – April 20, 2013

The contention that was tabled was that Cruise couldn’t play Bond because he was American. So unless it is your contention that all Americans are bad actors innately, that Cruise may be a bad one is superfluous to the discussion at hand. A point in his favor would be that’s played an American secret agent in 4 successful motion pictures.

Also whether you like it or not, the fact remains that Bond was played by an American with the full knowledge and support of the character’s creator. So the contention that he couldn’t be portrayed by one is disproven by the example where he was. Complaining that his origin was rewritten makes about as much sense as complaining that Kirk’s origin’s been rewritten. These things happen.

“And you’re telling me that after 50 years and 25 of some of the worlds top grossing films all featuring British actors…” – Curious Cadet

Again, you are wrong. George Lazenby played Bond in movie cycle that you cite and he is Australian, and you are glossing over the film adaption of the previously cited television production:

http://movies.nytimes.com/person/41054/George-Lazenby/biography

The American Bond that you are lambasting, is regularly aired on THIS TV and isn’t as obscure as you think. I was well aware in the 1960s how David Niven’s Bond production in which 6 other agents are given the designation James Bond (half of them women) acquired the rights.

You see the contention that a character, James Bond, couldn’t be portrayed by an American or a woman or an Aussie is false, false, false because the character already has. And no amount of hand waving is going to change that.

132. Kev - April 21, 2013

William Khan didnt help Kirk in any form, just blocked questions and did some skirt chasing in TOS, and that was about it.

and this changes things up abit, I mean Khan when they found his ship was kind of caught with his pants down and unable to really combat kirk outside of a blind takeover, maybe this time he’s got more prep time.

although I still think the super dreadnaught shooting balls at the enterprise via a rail gun is STUPID, not to mention how unintentionally funny that scene was in the trailer when they revealed it.

could have had a subtitle going my dick is bigger than yours on the bottom for god sakesand I just honestly broke out laughing at how stupid that was.

I mean you see that ship, khans ship, the narda, grissom viagra ship with the cool uniforms and the blue and black dark bridge and then the apple enterprise with the overdone and overly bright modern TOS style uniforms (the tos ones looked less bright and more easterish honestly) and it just seems so silly

like a 6 foot 4 punk beating up a hipster doofus, they really shouldnt have shown that trailer.

I do like the Nibiru Volcano shot here though, just shows if they had gone for a light grey and cut down on the blue glow on the new enterprise it could have looked like a modern version of the old girl.

maybe with a gold glow like in TMP instead of blue would have worked better.

133. Curious Cadet - April 21, 2013

@130. Disinvited,
“You see the contention that a character, James Bond, couldn’t be portrayed by an American or a woman or an Aussie is false, false, false because the character already has. And no amount of hand waving is going to change that.”

I see, so your point has nothing to do with mine. I NEVER implied Bond COULDN’T be played by an American (or a woman or an Aussie for that matter), nor ever had been (that’s your strawman), but that after 50 years the iconic quentisentially British character would not be accepted by a current audience played by someone like Tom Cruise. Just like a current audience wouldn’t likely accept a black Superman, or a female Kirk either.

You also seem to be more concerned about proving me wrong on some technicality than actually debating the intent of my discourse. I could care less what obscure facts you are able to Google up to prove these forgotten exceptions to the rule, which are anything but germane to my thesis. But congratulations, you win that one. Good job.

134. Harry Ballz - April 21, 2013

BOB ORCI

LONG OVERDUE FOR A VISIT, AREN’T YOU?

WELL?

135. smike - April 21, 2013

This character genetically IS Khan, full stop. They wanted Del Toro to play the role but later decided that Cumberbatch did the better voice work.

All those racial issues…just bury them. Khan primarily is the product of genetic engineering, not your standard Indian Sihk… there was lots of racism involved in creating his breed in the first place. The Nazis believed that Northern India was the cradle of the Aryan race, so if racists had created Khan and his fellow augments, they would have created a Caucasian specimen to begin with. So much for Eugenics…

As for Abrams’ choice not making him look Indian…WELL DONE from a modern point of view as well… Think about it: dark-skinned villain vs. blond Caucasian good guy? Seriously? Now THAT would have been racist… Now it’s eugenic supervillain vs. rural space cowboy from Iowa. Far less delicate…

Apart from that: Harrison may not be THE Khan, but a recreation of Khan, a clone, created out of historical DNA samples by that secret organisation within Starfleet – probably Section 31 – that had created the Dreadnought, the GattlinGun and other top secret devices. Those “cryotubes” seen in the trailers probably aren’t cryotubes at all but incubators as seen in NextGen’s “Up the Long Ladder”…

136. Curious Cadet - April 21, 2013

@134 Smike,
“Harrison may not be THE Khan, but a recreation of Khan, a clone, created out of historical DNA samples”

Then he’s not Khan. Full stop. What a waste.

Yup, nothing like a movie full of white men in positions of power to make one feel all warm and Klannish.

137. boborci - April 21, 2013

134. hi!

138. Theatre Historian - April 21, 2013

137)
Boborci Any chance of you making a apperance at the Trek 09 screening at the Egyptian on the 06th of May ?

139. Jim Nighshade - April 21, 2013

Ku Klux Khan?

140. Jemini - April 21, 2013

116. Coastie
that was clever editing!
I think that the eye roll is directed at something Spock had said, by the way. I could be wrong but I remember JJ talking about that scene somewhere?

Jim Kirk had always been insubordinate when he wasn’t the captain.
Were you guys angry with McCoy for his “are you out of your vulcan mind?” when speaking to his captain? (at the time Spock) or the (possibly racist) “green-blooded hobgoblin” comment directed at the captain?
or with Scotty when Spock (still the acting captain) made him a direct question but he refused to answer (twice) and pretty much laughed on his face? (Scotty’s fast promotion in the first movie is just another example of suspension of disbelief I guess)
You probably thought it was funny (me too) and it didn’t make these characters irritating or annoying, perhaps that was the purpose of these scenes and we aren’t supposed to read too much into them. We aren’t watching a reality show about the nasa, you know.
Spock is the king of sass, also. (I love Quinto-Spock) His ways to deliver classy insults are priceless ( “I apologize, Captain, but the complexities of human pranks escape me” is one of my favorite quotes ever LOL In my mind it will forever translate as him essentially telling Pike: are you out of your mind?! )

A little banter between Kirk/Uhura would be fun and mirror the Spock/McCoy banter. The point is that this is nothing new in the star trek verse but somehow Uhura is always held to different standards than the male characters.
Some of you guys here are nitpicking now, every little stupid detail related to Uhura is a big deal when the same identical things in other characters don’t even register as something to care about or analyze that much nor they make them annoying.

141. Disinvited - April 21, 2013

#133. Curious Cadet – April 21, 2013

I’ve introduced a strawman? How can that be when Fascinoma introduced this distasteful “racebending” nonsense in message 87 with the proviso that it was unacceptable because Abrams hadn’t done it before. In message 99 you appeared to freely join in with your contention that Kirk couldn’t be gay. In 103 your argument appeared to be anti-racebending was especially called for when the characters were “iconic” as opposed to being people whatever that means.

Now, you clarify that you didn’t mean to join Fascinoma with his/her posit that fictional characters, like Bond, couldn’t be racebent because they hadn’t been before. Thanks for clarifying that and I apologize for any snark, the bad taste this all leaves in my mouth, may have sent your way. You see, I agree with Unwanted: People are people.

Given that Kirk Prime has had numerous unions outside his own species, I’m now uncertain on what you are drawing in your contention of what the character can’t be?

142. Killamarshtrek - April 21, 2013

@137 boborci

Bet you’re a busy chap aren’t you!?

143. Disinvited - April 21, 2013

#135. smike – April 21, 2013

We know in both Federations that cellular metamorphosis is known to exist. Its secret is tightly guarded. In one, it gets revealed to Garth. In the other, who knows?

We already have the ability in the real world now to activate inactive genes in living organisms and introduce new ones too. If Khan was found, and given to a young Carol Marcus’ bio-engineering team to implement whatever measures deemed necessary to successfully revive him, who knows what changes possibly could have introduced to ensure his successful revival? An interesting twist, perhaps, having Carol in one universe know nothing about him and perhaps, in another know all. altCarol wouldn’t have Scotty on her team to make the antiquated equipment function as optimally as possible, she may have had to go another way.

#136. Curious Cadet – April 21, 2013

“Then he’s not Khan.”

No matter how much we may not like it, if the production says he is Khan on screen then he is. Unfortunately, the character is not yet in the public domain so that we can say “That may be your Khan, but that’s not mine.”

We can point out how inane, stupid or insane that this or that may appear to be, but until we see their actual finished product on the silver screen, we won’t actually know if their “solution” has any of those apparent traits which we disdain, or if Khan is actually in it at all.

144. Harry Ballz - April 21, 2013

@137 boborci “134. hi!”

D’OH!

145. Aurore - April 21, 2013

“I believe John Tenuto clarified that the casting of Montalban necessitated the change from a Scandinavian character to an Indian character, and the physical traits assigned to Khan were specifically to accommodate Montalban’s darker complexion…”
_____________

Here is what John Tenuto said ( post 307 ):

” The role of Khan was changed from a European or Nordic Harold Ericsson because Ricardo Montalban was cast. The character’s background and name was changed because of the actor chosen, and some of the dialog very late, near filming of the episode. We will have more details on this when all the research is completed, but we have confirmed this both with interviews and original production documents.”

http://trekmovie.com/2012/12/12/tenutoblog-making-the-case-for-identifying-the-star-trek-into-darkness-villain/

In the interview I linked to earlier, Mr. Montalbán said that he did not know how he was cast, except that at that time, “they” knew he had a fairly good physique. And, he also stated, it may be that it was thought that what was needed was a young man in good shape to play a “superman” etc…( Part 2 of the interview. Starts at 24 :57 ).

Once the research, John Tenuto was referring to, is completed, we may know more.

However, my personal opinion, from what I read and heard, is that as Ricardo Montalbán stated, the character he played needed to be believable as a man of superior strength and intelligence.
Hence the role he was offered.

What made him credible as Khan was that he could act …and was impressive-looking.
….Not to mention that he had often been chosen to play other ethnicities, before Star Trek.

Thus, when you assert that “interestingly enough, Montalban actually works with or without the makeup and tan…” I beg to differ, to some extent.

In spite of what you referred to as “Montalban’s robust tan”. And, despite the fact that he had played many different roles, he, apparently, was not considered to be “other” enough to portray Khan in Space Seeds.

The fact remains that he still had to wear make-up.

146. Aurore - April 21, 2013

“This character genetically IS Khan, full stop. They wanted Del Toro to play the role but later decided that Cumberbatch did the better voice work.”
______

If you don’t mind, I’ll wait for someone from Paramount…or a report on the Sydney’s premiere to know more about John Harrison.

“All those racial issues…just bury them.”

No.

“As for Abrams’ choice not making him look Indian…WELL DONE…”

Again, I’ll know about “Abrams’ choice” soon enough.

“Apart from that: Harrison may not be THE Khan, but a recreation of Khan, a clone, created out of historical DNA samples by that etc, etc…”

Many fellow fans have said so.

I personally hope for something original, unique and… different from what you are suggesting.

147. EM - April 21, 2013

I’m pretty sure that somewhere along the way I mentioned that Peter Weller was this movies “Phantom Menace”! I think that I might be right!

148. Classy M - April 21, 2013

@145 – “I personally hope for something original, unique and… different from what you are suggesting.”

I agree, Aurore. My greatest wish is that we each leave the film saying, “Well, I never saw THAT coming!”

149. Curious Cadet - April 21, 2013

@140. Disinvited,
“Given that Kirk Prime has had numerous unions outside his own species, I’m now uncertain on what you are drawing in your contention of what the character can’t be?”

I really have no idea what you are going on about.

You are making inferences about what I’ve written and then going off the rails on some tangent which seems to have little to do with my thesis. “Kirk has had numerous unions outside his own species”? What does that have to do wi anything we’ve been discussing.

I say Tom Cruise would not likely be accepted by today’s audiences as James Bond, and you proceed to tell me that an American has already played James Bond in 1954 so I’m wrong. Non sequitur. You’re arguing the trees without seeing the forest. And since you seem to think this is based on my personal bias, when in fact I’m merely illustrating the realities …

Let me make it simple for you — I have no problems personally with casting a woman as Kirk, an Asian as Bond, a Black man as Superman, or a white guy as Khan, or any other “race-bending” configuration you want to propose.

Now, you can get all bent out of shape that someone suggests you can’t racebend a character, but the reality is that when dealing with fictional characters that are protected by copyright, you can’t unless the copyright owner agrees. And the copyright owner usually has an interest in profiting from the character, and therefore will make decisions concerning the most profitable means of exploiting the character. The more iconic a character, the less likely the owner is going to be to change it. Superman is one of the most iconic characters in the world. How likely is it then do you think DC comics is going to portray him as a black man? Actually, that’s a whole new copyright as well. The answer is not bloody likely because audiences worldwide expect him to be white, and the fans are invested in him as being white. Not that it can’t be done, shouldn’t be done, or hasn’t been done, but that it’s not likely to be done. Now take a less iconic character like Kirk. You could more easily change his race, gender, or sexual orientation, but why? The fans would not likely accept it, nor would most audiences with a passing familiarity with the franchise. Now lets dig deeper, Khan has appeared in two installments of Star Trek, yet he is one of the most iconic figures in the series. The copyright owner has the choice of changing some of the iconic characteristics that made Khan successful, like his skin color, or choose from dozens of talented non-white actors worldwide who could play the part as well as Cumberbatch. The safe bet would be to make the latter choice. And Hollywood is nothing if not safe with its properties.

As much as you may dislike it, race and gener equality are still serious issues in the world. And the bigger issue is not whether a white man can play an Indian character, certainly 100 years ago Al Jolsen showed us a white man can easily play a black character to great success. Indeed Robert Downey Jr’s character in Tropic Thunder lampooned this idea. No, the bigger issue is whether a non-white actor has a chance to play any major parts in Hollywood movies. So here you have an iconic role established by Montalban as a non-white character, and with so many capable international actors eligible to play the part, Abrams makes the less safe choice of casting a white man, in a cast already full of white men? You might as well do an Empire Strikes Back reboot and cast Tom Cruise as Lando Calrissian. Because what we need in movies is MORE white people playing parts written as non-white characters — NOT. Your example of Laurence Fisburne playing Perry White is an example of progress in this regard. Going the other way, is the norm, especially for iconic comics which originated in a more racist time — yet these are still minor characters, a token black man in a cast that is otherwise white. Perhaps you already live in the 23rd century in your mind as far as race and gender equality are concerned, but I live in the real world where there need to be a lot more opportunities for non-white actors in Hollywood, not less.

150. Fascinoma - April 21, 2013

148 – I was going to jump back into the fray, but here you’ve made the same point… a million times better than I did, or could’ve.

I think the talk of racebending touched a nerve with someone.

151. Curious Cadet - April 21, 2013

@142 Disinvited,
“No matter how much we may not like it, if the production says he is Khan on screen then he is.”

Again, you’re arguing something else. I was responding to Smike’s assertion about a DNA clone still being Khan. Not whether the movie will come up with some other way to turn Harrison into Khan. This is tiresome.

Khan is a character created for Space Seed in 1966, a product of 20th century genetic engineering. A clone grown from his DNA is no more the same character floating in the Botany Bay, than would be Spock had his Katra not been restored. The clone has none of the background, experiences or memories of the original that make him interesting, and in this case doesn’t even physically resemble the original. To re-label this new character Khan, is a waste of that character.

Actually in many ways this applies to Kirk as well. However in Kirk’s case, we get an actor cast specifically to resemble Shatner’s Kirk (as well as the rest of the original cast), specifically to experiment with how that character might turn out differently. But unlike this DNA-Khan of Smike’s Kirk grew up in the same environment with the same mother and brother, he eventually went to the academy and met all the same people. The same, but different. DNA-Khan has none of that. No 20th Century upbringing, no seizing and ruling 1/4 of the Earth’s population, no escaping justice. That’s what makes Khan interesting as a character, not his DNA.

Regardless, just like Abrams’ Kirk, none of them are the same character. That’s why we have the labels Prime Spock and Alt Spock. Because they aren’t the same character, can’t be. Never will be, regardless of how the copyright owners choose to label them. Likewise with this DNA-Khan of Smike’s.

152. Curious Cadet - April 21, 2013

@144 Aurore,
“What made him credible as Khan was that he could act …and was impressive-looking….Thus, when you assert that “interestingly enough, Montalban actually works with or without the makeup and tan…” I beg to differ, to some extent….The fact remains that he still had to wear make-up.”

With respect to John Tenuto’s comments, I seriously doubt Montalban’s impressive physique necessitated the change of character from Scandinavian to Indian. I’ve seen some pretty impressive Scandinavians. And I’m pretty sure Montalban was wearing a wig, so why not a blond wig? If his tan was too dark for a Scnadinavian, then lighten him up with makeup. Worked for Spock. But I suspect it’s his dark features more than anything that dictated the change.

I’m most interested in Tenuto discovering why they chose Indian (and thus chose to darken him even further — a stereotype?), rather than just making him Spanish, or Argentinian (Boys from Brazil connection) — NBC sensors?

But my point in saying Montalban could play the part without makeup had more to do with his actual ethnic background and the typical appearance of those actually from Northern India, not how the part was ultimately implemented for Space Seed, which as you once again have emphasized, was decided to be a dark-skinned person for whatever reason.

Actually now that I think about it, Tenuto may have been the one to comment about trying to stay away from Nazi/Aryan master-race stereotypes. Indeed, they might have actually been trying to make a point about race with the darkening of Montalban’s skin — in much the same way Jesse Owens bested the Nazis at the 1936 Olympics. Khan was genetically and intellectually superior to every white man on board the Enterprise, as well as most of those on 1990s Earth, right? That’s a pretty startling thing to suggest about a dark-skinned man on 1960s US network television. Could it be the NBC sensors wouldn’t allow them to cast a black man? Maybe they wouldn’t allow them to imply it about a Latino man either, despite the fact Desi Arnaz ran the studio.

153. oliver - April 21, 2013

Actually I’m happy to say there is no other actor who could play Cumberbatch’s role better than he can. I regard him as the greatest actor in the world.

154. Aurore - April 21, 2013

“….Indeed, they might have actually been trying to make a point about race with the darkening of Montalban’s skin….”
______

I think the point they were trying to make, or at least, the one that was conveyed to me, was that without his make-up ( and the wig ), in Space Seeds, he would not have looked like “Indian” enough.

The “robust tan” you talked about wasn’t enough.

That was, in part, what I meant @ 144.

155. Lemingsworth Bint - April 21, 2013

Harrison is Khan.

156. dududada - April 21, 2013

The fact is, from the string of specific race or appearance of actors that JJ auditioned, he couldn’t find one that is available AND up to par with his standard. He tried looking, but he couldn’t find. So he decided to let actors of ANY race and appearance to tried out for the role. And along came this pasty white blue eyed English man whose not only available (and perhaps cheap), but also exceeding his expectation of how he imagined the villain would be.
Thus, the best talent trumps the canon skin color. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

157. Disinvited - April 21, 2013

#155. dududada – April 21, 2013

Exactly.

158. Smike - April 21, 2013

@143: “@137 boborci “134. hi!” D’OH!”

D’OH indeed :-) Does boborci saying hi! to me have an affirmative quality to my outline?

Oh, I love it. Maybe, I AM right after all…;)

As for those saying my DNA-Khan isn’t Khan at all…That’s a matter of opinion. It’s nature vs. nurture once again. In this case: genetically augmented nature.

But the point is: Starfleet/Section 31 may have been so bold to believe they could clone one of history’s most cruel tyrants and turn him into one of their own. But as the historical Khan succumbed to his own delusions of grandeur back on Earth, this “John Harrison” may go the same way and Starfleet isn’t able to get rod of the spirits they’ve gathered….

It’s a bit like “Patterns of Force”…John Gill trying to introduce a controlled form of Nazism to save that alien planet. And the experiment backfires…badly.

Now look at the Federation in this new timeline. Vulcan gone, the Earth almost exterminated if it hadn’t been for Kirk and the Enterprise, large parts of the fleet destroyed…unknown dangers ahead of them all, Spock Prime talking about (or forced to talk about) even greater threats in the future…Borg, Dominion, the Q…

That’s the our of the wolf in sheep’s clothing. Section 31 decides to act upon it, creating the Dreadnough-class destroyers, creating deadly bioweapons and cybernetic implantation, and…finally reviving the Eugenics program, based on 20th/21st century research, trying to do better this time round…recreating agents and soldiers for the future…recreating that monster that was Khan…your own homegrown one-man weapon of mass destruction…It all adds up…

159. Smike - April 21, 2013

…get rid of…
…hour the wolf…

160. Curious Cadet - April 21, 2013

@155. dududada,
“The fact is, from the string of specific race or appearance of actors that JJ auditioned, he couldn’t find one that is available AND up to par with his standard.”

This may or may not be true. Certainly it is common situation in Hollywood. And it only likely applies if Harrison is indeed supposed to be Khan. The discussion I’ve been having is essentially hypothetical.

Personally I think the Harrison character was never supposed to be Khan, and everything I’ve seen suggests Harrison has nothing to do with Khan, I.e. his goals and motives are so disparate from what I would expect from the character of Khan as to be an entirely new character and therefore a waste if Khan. The fact Cumberbatch bears no physical similarity to Khan only reinforces this notion for me. Not that it isn’t possible. The secrecy also tips me off. If they really were changing Khan so dramatically, in keeping with the M.O. of the last film, they would have gotten it out of the way earlier, as they did with the alternate unjverse canon issue, and let all the fans get it out of their system before opening day.

The fact remains that Abrams has otherwise selected a cast which largely reflects the original physical traits of the original cast. So I do find it hard to believe that if Abrams were actually casting for Khan, he really couldn’t find anyone in the entire world as talented as Cumberbatch who were both available and fit the physical parameters of the iconic character, but stranger things have happened. I just think it would be unfortunate. And in contrast, I seriously doubt Warner Brothers would have ever cast the Joker (as has been likened to Khan) with anyone other than a white male had Ledger not been available.

161. Smike - April 21, 2013

If this movie is somewhat based on Diane Carey’s “Dreadnought” novel, I really hope more Star Trek novels (or elements from them) will be used in future movies and TV spin-offs…

As I have pointed out before, Peter David’s “Vendetta” provides an excellent link between the Doomsday Machine and the Borg, and since the Narada was obviously enhanced by Borg technology, the Borg might be already on their way to Sector 001, just to see what all the fuzz is about…

The potentials of this new timeline are virtually endless, because you can combine familiar elements from both live-action installments and novels/other print media with completely new ideas without violating any canon.

Star Wars fans will actually envy us shortly when their Extended Universe falls apart…at least we’ve got an excuse for continuity breaches now :-)

What about a Vanguard TV series set in the same new timeline, with familiar elements and new ideas? Actually, from what I’ve heard Vanguard would make an excellent BadRobot-type concept (though I haven’t read any of the books yet)…

162. Smike - April 21, 2013

@159:

“and everything I’ve seen suggests Harrison has nothing to do with Khan,”

His motives may be different for it is a completely different context and he’s acting under completely different circumstances. It’s simply a fresh new plot.

BUT: As I’ve pointed out repeatedly…the marketing campaign / known plot elemtens feature loads of hints at him being Khan, tidbids that by no way can be accidental…

You don’t put “Beyond the Darkness…I have my vengeance!” in a Star Trek trailer without planning on evoking some TWOK memories.

And why putting Carol Marcus in the film? And fast aging, obviously linked to her research?

“Who are you?” – “I am better…at everything.”
Now who believes to be better at everything, relying on his superior strength and intellect?

“You are a pawn, Kirk.” is certainly related to that “scientists have always been pawn of the military” line in TWOK.

There is the plexiglass scene, the ribbed collar, a certain resemblence of the voice (which IMO is more important than any physical resemblence), the cryotubes/incubators…

Why putting all of this into the movie / the campaign in the first place? It has to serve a purpose… Why making people believe it is Khan from the VERY beginning, since trying to contract Del Toro for the role…heck, even since the unused Bontany Bay sequence that had been supposed to be after ST09’s credits…

There is only one answer to that question…John Harrison, to some degree, is Khan…

163. Curious Cadet - April 21, 2013

@157. Smike,
“As for those saying my DNA-Khan isn’t Khan at all…That’s a matter of opinion.”

No, it’s a matter of fact.

DNA-Khan is no more the same character than Prime Spock (Nimoy) and Alt Spock (Quinto) are. The fact is, there was or is a Botany Bay floating out in the Alt universe with Khan inside. So how can DNA-Khan be the same character? It’s impossible.

As for your conjecture concerning Starfleet’s secret genetic laboratory, if they really were growing super soldiers why would they go back to 1960s technology that produced Khan? Even if they weren’t actively engaged in genetic engineering, they have far more advanced tools and understnding of DNA than certainly was available in the 1960s to start from scratch. And why specifically duplicate Khan exactly given all the numerous choices you allude to? He was never even implied to be a “one man weapon of mass destruction” and obviously had serious potential personality flaws. And the minute they go enhancing the DNA to change his appearance, etc. then you no longer have your nurture vs. nature experient, as the characters are no longer identical. While your theory is not impossible, it makes little sense. Then again neither did Red Matter.

164. Smike - April 21, 2013

BTW: Maybe the Dreadnought-Class battlecruiser will be actually called Bontany Bay :-)

165. Curious Cadet - April 21, 2013

@161. Smike,
“And fast aging, obviously linked to her research?”

Yup all those other things are out there. You see what you want to see.

But seriously where does this “fast aging” argument come from? As far as I know there has been nothing official that has suggested this. Do you have a source for confirming this is actually anywhere in the film?

166. Smike - April 21, 2013

@162: I do see your point… they are NOT the same characters if my theory is correct. Neither were Picard and Shinzon. But Shinzon finding out about his “identity” made him mad. What would Khan’s clone if he found out to be the recreation of one of the “greatest” men in history? Trying to do the same…I guess… But then, the motives of Trek villains are seldom logical… Nero, Shinzon, Soran… none of them behaved in a feasible way. So it would only be logical to assume, this one won’t either…

As for 1960s genetics…I’m part of the faction that believes that Khan ruled from 2092-96. I know it’s been stated otherwise in SS and TWOK but since it hasn’t happened yet, it’s still in the future. Actually TWOK contradicts itself on that issue. While they initially say 1992-96, Khan later says “200 years” ago, which would fit with the other dates…So it’s late 21st century technology, that was shortly abandoned and outlawed after his rule was overthrown. Also the Botany Bay couldn’t have been built in the 1990s…It happened after First Contact, during the first days of interstellar travels…

167. Unwanted - April 21, 2013

@164. I have been wondering about that one too. As far as I can tell it just popped up as a misunderstanding of the “reverse aged April” theory.

@163. Nah, but I hope that shuttle Kirk and the guys are using gets named HMS Bounty.

168. Smike - April 21, 2013

@164: As far as I know “fast aging” is featured in the preview sequence featuring the sick girl and her Starfleet father, which John Harrison is presumably able to help if he blows up Starfleet branch in London. It intially came before the Nibiru scene but now comes second I guess…

169. Unwanted - April 21, 2013

@165. The Botany Bay was made for interplanetary trips, ie Earth to Mars, it did not have a warp drive. The DY-100 class predates First Contact, this is confirmed by the movie First Contact, when they identify April 5 2063 as being 10 years after WWIII aka The Eugenics War.

170. Smike - April 21, 2013

@168: WWIII being identical to the Eugenics War is only a theory. I’m not sure whether this has been mentioned onscreen in the first place, but if my memories are correct, the late 21st century state for the Eugenics War was acknowledge in an episode of DS9 in which Julian Bashir’s genetic enhancements are unveiled.
Again, I may be wrong about it, but there are contradicting theories about these events. But IF the Eugenics Wars are identical to WWIII, they must have happened in mid-21st century and NOT in the 1990s, so it’s still 21st century technology, which supports what I’ve said above. We’re not talking about primitive 1960s genetics to be reprise by Section 31…but advanced genetics from our future, that having been banned for two centuries, could have been brought back to create Harrison and his “family”…

171. Smike - April 21, 2013

Apart from that…while Conchrane has built the first warp-capable ship in 2063, there must have been non-warp-capable ships for decades after. So in 2096, it is more than likely to have a ship like Botany Bay around…

172. Smike - April 21, 2013

@159: A short supplemental:

“The fact remains that Abrams has otherwise selected a cast which largely reflects the original physical traits of the original cast.”

I’m not sure about that either. The only new actors who really look the part to some degree are Kirk, Spock and certainly Bones, who’s the best of the bunch! Uhura comes close but doesn’t nail it.

But Chekov only resembles the voice and the accent, Scotty is a completely new interpretation of the character, though a VERY good one and Sulu does neither look nor sound the part, apart from being Asian. Spock’s voice is a tad off and Sulu’s voice, which is a prominent part of Takei’s version of the character is completely gone.

I’m glad, that – IF Cumberbatch is a new version of Khan – at least his voicework nails the character.

Okay, I’m gone now…good afternoon, good evening and good night…

173. Curious Cadet - April 21, 2013

@169. Smike,
“We’re not talking about primitive 1960s genetics to be reprise by Section 31…but advanced genetics from our future, that having been banned for two centuries”

Again this only matters if they are resurrecting Khan.

Moreover, even if genetic engineering per se was banned for 200 years, there would have still been dramatic advances in the general technology as applied to other areas of science. There is no way that genetics technology from 2063 could compete with that of the 2250s.

Going back to Khan & the Botany Bay for a plot line that involves anything like this just simply makes no sense. So for my money it either has nothing to do with genetically engineering super soldiers, or it has nothing to do with Khan — or neither, but not both.

174. Shilliam Watner (Click Name for Trek Poster) - April 21, 2013

Hey, I don’t come around her much any longer, so I’m wondering if any of the fervent “It is Khan” proclaimers have admitted they seem to be very wrong, or if they are still hanging onto their assertion.

It would seem to me that all evidence is pointing to a serious lack of Khanian goodness and that the Khan believers would be having a crisis of faith at this point.

Just wondering, because it’s been such a prevalent argument for sooooo long.

The film looks great from the previews, but so did The Watcher (Keanu Reeves and James Spader) so you just never know ;-) Looking forward to it.

175. Shilliam Watner (Click Name for Trek Poster) - April 21, 2013

Wow, that was an unfortunate typo in my previous post.

176. fwise3 - April 21, 2013

#72 Au contraire! (Although, my grammar-alarm went off when I first heard it, it appears to be correct!) 0.o

177. fwise3 - April 21, 2013

In regards to my previous post…I apologize, I forgot the URL!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cleverer

178. BLFSisko - April 21, 2013

I have a really crazy idea: John Harrison is… JOHN HARRISON. Don´t call me stupid ;-)

179. The Great Bird Lives - April 21, 2013

As I stated in previous threads- It seems likely that given the time-frame, what we know of Star Trek History, and the trailers showing us that genetics, and artificial human enhancements, It seems likely that Khan, and the Eugenics wars would at least be mentioned. Not to mention JJ’s statement that their destinies are locked (Kirk, and Khan), and they will inevitably meet- in so many words.The only question at the time was whether they would include the Botany Bay in the post credits as a prelude of things to come. And then there are the unverifiable rumors that have floated around- some from reliable sources…
It would seem that all indicators are pointing towards Khan, or his theatrical equivalent, regardless of those who say there is no evidence. Granted, the evidence is mostly circumstantial, but if it walks like a Khan, and it talks like a Khan, chances are it’s not Harry Mudd.

180. Unwanted - April 21, 2013

@Smike. Here is the thing that, to me, proves Cumberbatch is not Khan beyond all shadow of a doubt. JJ said that Cumberbatch’s character is someone sympathetic that we the audience will at least partly agree with.

No part of that resembles Khan in my book. There is no way I will ever understand or sympathize with someone who believes he should rule because he is superior, therefore that is not the motivation of Cumberbatch’s character, therefore he is not Khan.

Now I do believe it is possible that Khan will be in the movie, we just havent seen him. I also do not believe he will be part of the main story, at most I feel he will show up at the end and set up number 3.

However I also feel it possible that reports of “Khan is in the movie” could be people having fun with the fact that there is an actress named Hina Khan in the film.

181. The Awakening - April 21, 2013

Simple analogy for what is going on: Starfleet is ‘the establishment’, Harrison is akin to the Occupy Protesters and Anonymous and similar groups, and others who have Awakened to what is REALLY going on in society (one person’s villian is another’s hero) and Kirk is the one caught in the middle and questioning who to follow. Marcus represents corrupt elements in the government who would steer the establishment toward a dictatorship.

Remember JJ Abrams got his big break with Alias. This film is taking the dynamic of Alias and transplanting this into Star Trek a bit.

182. The Awakening - April 21, 2013

Also: I think the two spacejumping are Kirk and CAROL MARCUS, not Kirk and Harrison. Why? Look at the airlock. That is a shuttle airlock, like was seen in the 2009 film, and the ‘Carol Marcus in panties’ scene everyone is clamoring over, also takes place in a shuttle. Therefore its context is Carol and Kirk are changing into their spacesuits to jump to Harrison/Marcus’s Dreadnought ship.

183. Dennis Bailey - April 21, 2013

He’s Khan; no one said “someone that absolutely everyone in the audience, no matter how narrow, will identify with.”

184. Unwanted - April 21, 2013

@180, Nope, the scene in question has already been shown to the press, it is Harrison, and that is not a shuttle airlock, there is a report on the scene right here on Trekmovie, Im posting from my phone so I cant provide a link but its here. Can sombody else provide a link?

185. Theatre Historian - April 21, 2013

178) none of the trailers have made any mention of Genetics or artificial human enhancements.

186. Unwanted - April 21, 2013

@180 The story on that scene is titled “Trekmovie report on extended Star Trek into Darkness sequences shown at cinemacon”.

187. Trek Fan - April 21, 2013

Come on guys… they probably had Khan in mind initially and wrote it that way with Del Toro in mind. When Del Toro backed out, they rewrote the script and added the Harrison character in place. So yes, it was initially going to be Khan. But it is not Khan. Harrison is just Harrison.

And as for that line “You are a pawn, Kirk.” doesn’t sound like Cumberbatch. I am wondering if maybe that is a Klingon saying the line.

Makes me wonder if the Klingons are the ones that took over the other ship and firing at Enterprise. And Harrison and Kirk go over there to take back the ship.

And the “Darkness… is… coming…” line – sounds like it could be when Harrison is dying. The voice sounds weak, as if it is the last words he is speaking.

188. BatlethInTheGroin - April 21, 2013

#72: Uh… yes, “cleverer” is most definitely a word.

189. BatlethInTheGroin - April 21, 2013

#106: It’s obviously not Charlie. Come on, man.

190. Theatre Historian - April 21, 2013

Very exciting that we are now aproximately 30 hours away from the very first of the Gala premieres of Into Darkness.

191. dududada - April 22, 2013

Just a reminder, two of the main cast already admit that they’ve been lying all this time. So no way John Harrison is just John Harrison.
We’re 9-10 hours away from the truth!

192. Unwanted - April 22, 2013

My last two posts [#184 & 186] should have been @The Awakening, numbers changed on me, sorry for any confusion.

193. Theatre Historian - April 22, 2013

191,
I still say you wont here anything spoiler wise imeadiately after the premiere. which is still aprox 27 hours away.

Once the All press and media screenings begin (which usually have a decent number of general public in them to help fill the house) then spoilers will probably really start gushing.

But typically Gala premiere audiences aren’t the type who go rushing online to spoil movie secrets.

194. Aurore - April 22, 2013

“… they probably had Khan in mind initially and wrote it that way with Del Toro in mind. When Del Toro etc, etc …”
______

I never said it before, but….

….In my opinion, the part they had in mind for Benicio Del Toro never was Khan….

:)

195. Star Trek: Nemesis blows, is the point - April 22, 2013

@191. In my line of work, I’m aware of confidential information I can’t speak to publicly. However, there is a community of people who likes to discuss these things, much like the Trek community talks about Trek rumors.

Just because they’ve said that they’ve been lying doesn’t mean anything, other than they’re tired of not being able to talk about the movie without being coy. Is John Harrison more than who he says we know he is? Probably. But because the cast members are tired of lying about what they know doesn’t mean John Harrison actually is Khan or anyone else. He could just be John Harrison.

On that note…
I find it hard to believe that a Starfleet officer could get away with having a secret identity without being part of an organization like Section 31. Further more, I have a hard time figuring out how Starfleet could have an officer join it’s fleet who is from Earth, but has no Federation records. For Khan to effectively work in this story, I’m inclined to think he would have to be found by Section 31 before Kirk would accidently come across him in Space Seed. I don’t see why Section 31 wouldn’t be looking for the Botany Bay in an attempt to convert Khan into a Section 31 person.

But why, then, would Khan, a leader of most of Asia in the early 1990s, leave Earth without an apparent destination in a self-imposed exile, who in the Prime universe wants to steal the Enterprise for a new colony on a new world, agree to be a subordinate in a military/MI6-esque clandestine unit, and then turn the tables on the Federation by blowing up Starfleet?

Perhaps he thinks he needs to eliminate Starfleet as a military force to bring peace – because he had unprecdented peace within the empire he controlled until 1996. Perhaps he sees the Narada incident and the destruction of Vulcan as a destablizing force, and that the greater-militarized Federation would only lead to greater chaos in the galaxy.

However, I find that to be rather unlikely. It’s been said repeatedly – he’s acting as a terrorist. Terrorists bring chaos and disorder, not control and order. Khan isn’t a terrorist; he’s a leader. Khan said he offered the world Order!, something it has in 2259, which it didn’t in 1996. Even if he thinks it doesn’t, he should be able to recognize that destroying Starfleet would only introduce more chaos. Further more, he’s obviously smart enough to realize he could never control the Federation like he could a planet. Being the superior human he is, I presume this is why, in the Prime universe, he wanted to make his own colony instead of trying to take over Earth, when presented with an opportunity where he could have made an attempt.

So, if John Harrison is indeed Khan, what I just wrote above would need to be satisfactorily answered for me to buy into the story. Much like Kirk’s question, “What does God need with a starship?”, “Why does Khan need a Starfleet career?”

196. Jason S. - April 22, 2013

I hope Harrison is Kahn. Then maybe some of you will wake up and realize how dumb JJ-Trek is!

197. Curious Cadet - April 22, 2013

@194 Aurore,

Agreed. I’ve been saying all along the reason they cast Del Toro was for his international appeal, and not because he was a Latino like Montalban. What a ridiculous notion that Abrams would intentionally cast yet another person of Spanish descent to play an Indian character, compounding the sins of the 60s, when there are so many more fine ethnically appropriate actors out there to do it. This idea of a focused casting call for Latinos to play the part of Khan is just offensive on so many levels — Abrams’ “binders full of Latinos” if you will. It’s the fans who assumed Del Toro was playing Khan because he was Latino, so shame on them.

@195 Blows,
“I don’t see why Section 31 wouldn’t be looking for the Botany Bay in an attempt to convert Khan into a Section 31 person.”

Because it’s ridiculous, that’s why. Why would anybody try to convert someone from the 20th century who was the leader of 1/4 of the Earth’s population following a coup d etat, when they have far superior technology to grow their own dedicated and loyal genetically enhance soldiers from scratch? Much less scour the galaxy for what was regarded as a myth to do it? It would be like hunting down Bin Laden to convert him to be your counter-terrorism expert. How could you ever trust him? In fact there is no scenario where taking any person aboard the Botany Bay and conscripting them into Starfleet makes any sense.

198. Disinvited - April 22, 2013

#197. Curious Cadet – April 22, 2013

I’m not tied to the Harrison is Khan thing – just open to considering it. In that vain, there has been enough intimation that the experiments that led to Khan and his ilk and their experimental superior gene sequences weren’t just banned but expunged in the later Trek series. I think I recall an ENTERPRISE episode were embryos were being destroyed.

So recovering the Botany Bay could be a mission of data recovery in a super soldier program. As for why revive Khan? Well, if the data was eradicated, a live specimen would be need to test and map what did what and how successful this or that was integrated into the living organism. I can see Carol Marcus involved in this in some way or another as part of a bio-weapon program.

As for why induct Khan into Starfleet?: Maybe to test some Fed tech for controlling soldiers. You know, ones that unquestioningly obey and enthusiastically execute orders.

Now as for the con side of this: The biggest danger I see in taking the story in this direction is it is close to one side of the future soldier story that Harlan Ellison wrote for THE OUTER LIMITS.

But I expect Paramount and Bad Robot are well lawyered up. It just occurred to me that this would also be an excellent reason to keep super secret about such a future soldier story, i.e. to prevent a preemptive injunction to screening.

The cynic in me would expect that the marketing is ready for a lawsuit to exploit the publicity and the secrecy is one way to control the timing to maximize on it, if it comes.

199. Curious Cadet - April 22, 2013

@198. Disinvited,
“there has been enough intimation that the experiments that led to Khan and his ilk and their experimental superior gene sequences weren’t just banned but expunged in the later Trek series. I think I recall an ENTERPRISE episode were embryos were being destroyed. So recovering the Botany Bay could be a mission of data recovery in a super soldier program.”

With all due respect, no. It’s just a dumb idea. Yes you can rationalize it any way you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that genetic research and gene therapy would have continued regardless of the ban on genetic engineering, and be significantly advanced beyond what was available during Khan’s era. And did Starfleet “expunge” all related data? The so-called “section 31″ shadow organization which this entire premise relies on has been around since Enterprise, long before the Cold Station 12 embryos were ordered destroyed. But we’re they? Do you really think with an organization like that everything, including the databases of information was destroyed? Today we even benefit from Joseph Mengele’s horrific wartime experiments, and from what I’ve seen of Enterprise and the depiction of their Section 31, not much has changed.

And there’s no need to debate about what we actually know or don’t, Memory Alpha keeps track of all this stuff in great detail.

Even if Starfleet engaged in a galaxy wide search for the mythological Khan just so they can test whether their new “loyalty” drug would work, you don’t trust and leave a guy like that in charge of anything, just in case. You have them do things like shoot themselves in the head.

So defend if you must, but it’s a very weak premise, ridiculously weak, and one that would totally disappoint me (and I suspect others) should Bob Orci have chosen it as a foundation on which to build his story. A potential lawsuit is the least of their worries.

200. Red Dead Ryan - April 22, 2013

#196.

“I hope Harrison is Kahn. Then maybe some of you will wake up and realize how dumb JJ-Trek is!”

I hope one day you wake up and realize how dumb your anti-J.J Abrams statements are. :-)

201. Disinvited - April 22, 2013

#199. Curious Cadet – April 22, 2013

Galaxy wide? I doubt the Botany Bay ever achieved a significant percentage of the speed of light. According to one Memory Alpha cite it was found 12lightyears out.

Perhaps you are right about failure to expunge. But then again maybe hopelessly misfiled as NASA’s 007 spacesuits, or the moon landing’s raw feed? Spock Prime knew its trajectory and speed when his ship found it so it might be easier than government archive archeology?

Given some of the weak premises in the 2009 movie, I wouldn’t find that label necessarily excludes this. But I can agree that a stronger one is preferred but then I don’t think any of us spitballing here claim to be writers on the level of the Trek roster so who knows what they may find to strengthen what appears weak to mere fans?

202. Kerri - April 22, 2013

@196 – The fact that you can’t spell “KHAN” even though the name is on the box and main titles shows that you shouldn’t be posting about how “dumb” other things seem to be to you.

203. bringbacktrekagain - April 22, 2013

There was a book long ago, probably considered Trek Canon, where an admiral go around with a dreadnought class ship causing problems….I can’t remember the title, it’s probably been 20 years since I read it.

204. Star Trek: Nemesis blows, is the point - April 23, 2013

@197. Curious Cadet

“Much less scour the galaxy for what was regarded as a myth to do it?”

Such a dumb idea…yet the Nazi’s searching for the Ark of the Covenant in Raiders of the Lost Ark isn’t? It’s not like they wouldn’t have an idea where to begin to look. If an individual had a motivation to want to find Khan, perhaps because he or she had an avid interest in the history of the Eugenics Wars, why couldn’t it happen.

Besides that, if you read everything I wrote, I summed it up with, “Why would Khan need a Starfleet career?” If you know the Star Trek V reference, then you should understand what the question means.

205. Newdivide1701 - April 23, 2013

Based upon the size of the Enterprise in comparison to the volcano, I have further doubts that the Enterprise is 725 metres long.

206. VladimirGagarin - May 1, 2013

If the volcano in the image has dimensions of 1500 meters in the crater with a height of 2.000 meters and 2.500 meters base as some on Earth, it would explain the perspective of the image and the size of the Enterprise.

Just a reminder that the largest volcano on earth has dimensions of 30 x 40 km in the crater. Galan volcano is in Argentina.

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