Star Trek Into Darkness Arrives (In Some Countries) – Open Thread + Poll | TrekMovie.com
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Star Trek Into Darkness Arrives (In Some Countries) – Open Thread + Poll May 8, 2013

by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

After all the talk and gala premieres, for some fans across the world Star Trek Into Darkness is finally here. Midnight shows are just getting out in Australia and New Zealand with showings in Germany, UK, Austria and Switzerland hours away (with Mexico and Taiwan openings tomorrow). You can vote in the latest poll and chat about the movie below including spoilers (if you haven’t seen the movie you may want to avoid this thread).

 

Star Trek Into Darkness is here

The wait is finally over (for some folks around the world). The first showings of Star Trek Into Darkness are starting. TrekMovie.com has already posted a review and now it is your chance. TrekMovie has created a new fan reviews page for Into Darkness. (for now we are asking people to avoid the biggest spoilers on the fan review page until the film is open in most markets by May 17).

POLL

We have created a new poll. Please only vote in the poll if you have actually seen the movie.

Rank Star Trek Into Darkness (if you have seen it)

  • Best Star Trek Film (15%)
  • Great Star Trek Film (48%)
  • Good Star Trek Film (19%)
  • OK Star Trek Film (9%)
  • Bad Star Trek Film (6%)
  • Worst Star Trek Film (3%)

Total Votes: 8,433

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DISCUSS STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS (WITH ANY SPOILERS)

Below chat about the movie, including discussing any spoilers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WARNING: This open thread is for people who have seen the movie. If you haven’t seen the movie you really shouldn’t be reading this as you are sure to get spoiled.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments

1. bjdcharlie - May 8, 2013

I have tickets to IMAX 3d – right across the street, May 15, Chicago. Can’t wait!

2. Bamasi - May 8, 2013

Based on Anthony’s review, I’m curious to see how he voted. I’m guessing either good or great from the review but I’d love to know which one he selected and why.

3. Phasers On Stun - May 8, 2013

So far it rates 83% @ Rotten Tomatoes. It will be interesting to see how far it falls or goes up as more reviews poor in.

4. Captain Spoiler - May 8, 2013

John Harrison ist Khan und Kirk dies in the end only to be resurrected by Khans blood! ;)

5. entropy - May 8, 2013

Khan should’ve died in the chamber saving the Enterprise. Thats an arc. The heroes learn to react based upon the villians actions. How great would it have been to see the Villian take a note from the heroes. Imagine how nemesis coulve turned out. Picard gravely injured by a reman and at the last moment deciding to give the “life saving blood” to Shinzon, and with that Shinzon goes to create the family Picard never had. I don’t know I m just think its all getting pretty generic.

6. Hoggzman - May 8, 2013

So much for asking people to keep the big spoiler under wraps.

7. Anthony Pascale - May 8, 2013

This is an open thread for people who have seen the movie. If you haven’t seen the movie you should not be reading this. There are ample warnings away. Spoilers are still not allowed in other threads. Not sure what else to do. Now that the movie is open We have to have some way for fans to discuss it and here it is.

The new fan review section (see tabs at top) still asks fans to avoid major spoilers until the film is open in most markets.

8. ray - May 8, 2013

john harrison is khan !!!!

9. ray - May 8, 2013

wwwaaahh!! – i want my star trek into darkness dvd!!!!

10. Elias Javalis - May 8, 2013

All i want to say is…iam jealous…I have 2 months to wait! I hope the rest of you fans enjoy it..Happy Screenings!!

11. Josh C. - May 8, 2013

I’ve pretty much already spoiled the movie for me, which is probably just as well because I’ve already gotten most of the ranting out of my system so maybe I’ll actually be able to enjoy the movie when I see it.

If I had gone in not knowing anything, I would have been raving lunatic mad when leaving the theater in all likelihood

12. Scott - May 8, 2013

I’m fine with spoilers, but I want to actually get confirmation: People who are saying John Harrison is Khan – is that true, or are you just being silly?

13. loghaD - May 8, 2013

What happened to Praxis!?

14. Josh C. - May 8, 2013

maybe it will look better when seen in context of the entire movie, but the entire concept of magical Khan blood just seems patently ridiculous on it’s face to me. I mean, really.

Red matter in the first movie: ok, pushing it, but I can buy it. There are a lot of weird and exotic substances that can do a lot of weird stuff in the Star Trek universe, and red matter didn’t seem to be all that much out of the norm when it comes to stuff like that.

Magic Khan Blood, though? Well, there are a couple of implications with that I suppose:

1) Magic Khan Blood – assuming he wasn’t somehow endowed with that ability after he was awoken in the new universe – could explain how Spock came back to life in The Search for Spock. The Genesis Device did blow up in Khan’s face, after all

2) What will having Khan’s blood in him do to Kirk? Make him smarter? stronger? If the Borg arrive and try to assimilate him will Khan blood prevent it? There are all sorts of things one can do with that in the future…

15. Phil - May 8, 2013

Well, it seems to be a hallmark of the writers style, provide enough information to make the movie work, but don’t sweat the details….

16. DomoaregatoMrMugato - May 8, 2013

John Harrison is the Mugato!

17. skortzy - May 8, 2013

May 10th @ 20:30 in Cluj-Napoca, Romania :)

18. Marsh1081 - May 8, 2013

I don’t buy the magic Khan blood deal either but in Space Seed, while working on Khan, Dr. McCoy tells Captain Kirk his recovery is incredible and the quote I believe was “There is just something in this man’s blood that won’t let him die.”

19. Grand Marshal Skaldak - May 8, 2013

Going at midnight. My best friend’s father had a stroke this afternoon. I’ve frankly lost interest in the film.

20. Josh C. - May 8, 2013

18 – true, but that was his own blood in his own body, not an injection into another, already dead, person. Again, I don’t know, maybe it will play better when I see the movie. I was unhappy, to say the least, when I first read about that, though

21. JohnRambo - May 8, 2013

Star Trek Into Darkness is only 3 hours away:-)

i’m pretty sure i will love this movie:-D

As soon as i’m back home i write a comment if it was awesome or not.

22. Trekman_dave - May 8, 2013

Seeing it at midnight can’t wait

23. mr. thomas - May 8, 2013

and i denmark it will arrive at the 6.th of june.
Im looking forward to it, no matter the spoilers:-)

24. Jim Smith - May 8, 2013

Saw it Saturday at Bafta (UK equivalent of AMPS). Liked it a lot. So did industry crowd. It’s probably stronger than 09. Cumberbatch excellent. Weller also very strong. Film isn’t “dark” as such, it’s about dark things, but it’s very funny. Nimoy’s cameo got a small cheer & warmed my heart. Glad the movie was about something (09 wasn’t). I bought the blood thing. It fits well enough with what we know about Augments, and it’s set up well in advance with the tribble thing. The movie repeats a little too much of 09, I think (attack on San Francisco, revenge plot, cold start enterprise leading to hero shot of ship rising) but that’s a small quibble. Sad that Pike was killed. Did the Dreadnought class Starfleet vessel get a name? When asked his name Harrison shouldn’t have been so prosaic, he should have said “On Earth, two hundred years ago, I was a Prince.” Glad he survived to be returned to if needs be.

Interesting canon point. The use of the union jack in the London based sequences indicates that in Star Trek’s future a) Scotland doesn’t leave the UK & b) UK is still a monarchy in c2260.

But yeah, terrific overall. Good movie & good Star Trek. Hope we don’t have to wait four whole years for the next one.

25. Brett L. - May 8, 2013

“Midnight shows are just getting out in Australia and New Zealand with showings in Germany, UK, Austria and Switzerland hours away (with Mexico and Taiwan openings tomorrow)…”

One of the U.S.’s last remaining dominant industries (i.e. filmmaking), and the rest of the world is still getting a jump on us by AT LEAST a week? I get the studio’s interest in boosting international box office, but this is getting absurd.

26. Tommbe - May 8, 2013

looking forward to watch STID in 5 Hours (UK)!

27. SirBroiler - May 8, 2013

I’m still holding out hope that this Harrison is Khan thing is more of a Harrison posing as Khan – but then he’s waking up the real Khan at the end of the movie. But no one seems to be telling it that way in any spoiler reviews. I think that would have been a much better approach than just giving us Khan right out of the gate.

Khan blood reviving a deceased Kirk is just stupid – plain old stupid.

28. LogicalLeopard - May 8, 2013

So basically,

66% percent of people polled above (as of roughly 2:20PM EST) thought it was an above average Star Trek movie.

81% thought it was a GOOD Star Trek movie

89% thought it was at least OK

11% thought it was a BAD Star Trek movie

*LOL* Of all the times for me not to have a passport.

29. Jim Smith - May 8, 2013

@ 25. I will have seen it twice before it opens in the USA. Which is, while great for me, not really fair, I know.

@ 12. Yes, it’s true. John Harrison is Khan. The Botany Bay was found by Section 31, who went looking for him after the destruction of Vulcan, hoping to use his intellect/genius for war against the *next* threat.

I forgot to say, I loved that Admiral Marcus has the Phoenix and the NX-01.

30. T'Sarah - May 8, 2013

5 hours and counting until I leave for the 00.01 showing in London… Just hoping the death/resurrection scene isn’t as lame as it sounds.

Why am I nervous?! & what the hell do I do for the next 3 years. TOS re-run for the net couple of months to start with I guess…

31. BatlethInTheGroin - May 8, 2013

#12: Seriously? It’s been confirmed for weeks that Harrison is Khan, ever since the premier.

32. Jim Smith - May 8, 2013

@ 27. It works in context. It’s a McCoy as miracle worker moment, combined with a logical extrapolation of what is said about Khan’s blood in Space Seed. It’s also beautifully done in terms of performances. I’m a TOS fan of thirty years standing. When I got into Star Trek there was one live action tv show & two movies. If that sort of longevity adds any weight to my opinion, I don’t know. But I mention it in case it does.

33. barney - May 8, 2013

seeing the film at 11.30 am or at 1.30 pm london time tommorrow 9th of may.

34. RichCD - May 8, 2013

#11 Totally agree. I am glad I read the spoilers, because now I can just watch the movie without focusing too much on some of the choices they’ve made.

Still, it saddens me that with all of the skill and resources Abrams & Co. have, they couldn’t have just told new stories in the context of the universe we all know and love – without the severe changes in character and behavior that essentially make our heroes (and villains, apparently) unrecognizable.

35. Jim Smith - May 8, 2013

@30 It’s not lame, it’s kinda beautiful.

@34 I recognise them.

36. chrisfawkes.com - May 8, 2013

They kicked some major goals with this film, I loved it.

There were two scenes that pandered to extreme fan boys that could have been dropped.

I would have expected to see more scars in the beat to beat scene.

Some terrific dialogue throughout.

Would have liked the end to have had the same result as the original episode that character forst appeared in. That way this film would work in tandem with another trek film.

Kirk and Spocks journey was justso well done.

Benedict was awesome. So were Pine and Quinto.

Loved how Scotty featured in the story too.

I will see this multiple times.

My Mr Spock ears were once again a hit with the theatre staff. No loud squeals of laughter this time but a good response all the same.

37. Trekboi - May 8, 2013

Saw the film again a couple of hours ago- Saw it in Sydney 2 weeks ago.
I liked it- I just think they should Have explained Khan’s appearance- like he altered his appearance to become John Harrison.

& I think they should have had some gay extra’s in the san fransisco bar scene.

38. Joe_Kirk - May 8, 2013

I thought it was damn good trek; it raised moral issues, had excellent banter & dialogue, great character moments.

Some things caught me off-guard like the role-reversal between Kirk & Spock (nice touch) but other things are still hard for me to digest ie. the 5 year mission only beginning now (so the events in the ongoing series no longer takes place within the 5 year mission?), Khan being too ‘starfleet’ looking, and Carol Marcus’ british accent AND decision to join the Enterprise Crew (I felt the events of the film would give her enough reason to distance herself from Starfleet ala TWOK). My only guess is that producers really want to move away from the way things happened exactly in the prime timeline.

Still thought it was great and I want more already, particularly more Klingons & KHAAAAAANNNN!!!

39. Borg Faction Upgrade - May 8, 2013

In the next trek it’s going to be revealed that the magic in the blood is Borg nano-bots and he was a new version of a Borg… clearly..

And this is how Khan changed his appearance, too. The new version of the Borg.

40. Themanle1 - May 8, 2013

Agree. Borg in next film!!!

41. Josh C. - May 8, 2013

40 – I’ve been wanting Kirk vs. Borg in the third film since the first one lol (I knew they wouldn’t do that for the 2nd one)

As I suggested above, Khan blood could be used as a plot device to make Kirk impervious/resistant to assimilation…

42. captainslater - May 8, 2013

That movie was just awesome and I loved the many Trek references in it.

Also I do like that Kirk & Spock switched their positions from the original timeline (eg KHAAAAAN!).

The reworked version of engineering was well done too.

43. Tadeo D'Oria - May 8, 2013

That blood thing doesn’t seems bad or “cheap” to me at all.

I haven’t seen the movie yet (it’s released in August here, so no point staying clear of spoilers anyway), but I’ve heard pretty bad things of Kirk’s death scene. I’ll have to wait a long time to see if they’re true.

44. mr. thomas - May 8, 2013

so since the cat is out of the bag, I have one question : what role does April play, since he was featured in the comics, or are they just for inspiration???

45. Jim Smith - May 8, 2013

@44 April does not feature.

46. mr. thomas - May 8, 2013

ok :-)

47. Coastie - May 8, 2013

Just read all the spoilers and not at all surprised. This totally was Talia Al Ghul all over again and I saw it coming for months.

Not too worried about spoiling it for myself — I knew how Titanic, Gettysburg, Miracle, The Perfect Storm, Pearl Harbor, ended and I still enjoyed those movies haha.

Oh and one more thing to all the Gary Mitchel and Captain April and Garth Brooks and Zuhl of Igor or WTF not gonna happen villians you guys said John Harrison was and ridiculed those of us who said Khan all the way … here we gooooo … I TOLD YOU SO! BAM!

48. Josh C. - May 8, 2013

47 – I’ll give it to you that he was “Khan.” I’ll have to see if he is really Khan without the quotes when I see the movie, however

49. Matt - May 8, 2013

how long does it take for the enterprise to be repaired after it’s get it’s fanny whooped?

50. chrisfawkes.com - May 8, 2013

Khaaaaaaan! Being screamed was the only really bad part.

The guest appearance was not good but not painful as was the scream.

51. THX-1138 - May 8, 2013

Well that confirms one part of my trepidation concerning the plot. For me, itwill be miraculous if they can pull off that story and not make me face-palm. But I agree with whoever said that they are glad they got spoiled ahead of time. If I had walked out of the theater after seing that cold I think I would probably scream.

52. chrisfawkes.com - May 8, 2013

@49

A year.

53. Matt - May 8, 2013

a year??? holy crap.

54. Coastie - May 8, 2013

Ahhh please no Borg … a huge giant square spaceship was cool in 1994, but I’ve already seen enough Terminator movies on FX since then.

55. Josh C. - May 8, 2013

51 – that was me who said that, and yeah.

My whole thing about it not being Khan was the contention that, what we know about the story: Harrison being a member of starfleet and his us being able to sympathize with his goal (if not his means), that eliminated Khan as a viable possibility as the villain. At least the same Khan we knew from Space Seed and Wrath of Khan anyway.

I think that assessment still stands until proven otherwise when I finally see it. I may be surprised, but I don’t see how any plight of Khan’s can be seen as sympathetic. It’d be kinda like having a movie where Hitler shows up, and he has goals which are sympathetic. I just don’t see how it can work, at least as a fan (I can see how perhaps people who don’t know the character could buy it, and maybe that’s the goal).

I dunno. I guess I’ll find out in a week

56. jesustrek - May 8, 2013

John harrison is the Gorn….or not ? Lol

57. filmboy34 - May 8, 2013

@51, Agreed. I am glad I know what to expect before entering the theater next week. No matter how executed, I am going to hate the TWOK rip off at the end between Kirk and Spock. I just am.

Other than that, it sounds like it could be fun. My only nagging question at this point is why Admiral Marcus has the “modified” torpedoes loaded on the Enterprise? Does he do it draw out Khan or was it a lazy attempt on the writers part to have Khan want to take the enterprise from Kirk?

To me it seems foolish to take your one barganing chip with Khan and put it at risk on the Enterprise. I mean once the crew finds out what those torpedoes really are doesn’t it kind of cause the story to unravel?

58. check the Circuit - May 8, 2013

Can’t read the article for fear of spoilers. But I had to check out the poll. I am encouraged by the results so far. A third think it’s the best ever. Another third think it’s great. As for the 6% that think it’s the worst…I bet I could guess them by name. I’d also bet the majority of that 6% haven’t even seen it yet. :D

59. Borg Faction Upgrade - May 8, 2013

I’m not saying I want the Borg. I am saying that this is the kind of treatment we should expect from JJ Trek. Khan and Borg, with a Borg Khan. Obviously.

60. Navy - May 8, 2013

What can we do to get rid of JJ Abrams and his cohorts?

They do not deserve to be part of the Star Trek universe.

61. mr. thomas - May 8, 2013

the borg, no please keep them ´till a new ´next generation ´/voyager show this time only to be set in delta-quadrant, no need to bring them into our part of the galaxy , no let them be untill the 24th century or more…….the borg : been there done that …WAY TO MANY TIMES !!!! ….A new villian would great if it where a totally unknown threat , like the cardassians or klingons, even though I know they´ll be in STID , but anyway……But I truly hope that we some day, probadly after 2016 gets a new trek series with either pine & CO., or the next generation just set in the new universe……………..

62. sidewall - May 8, 2013

I thought the last movie, with its myriad of improbable coincidences and nonsensical motivations (anyone want to tell me why Nero wants to kill the one person who tried to help him? Still don’t get that 4 years on.) was awful. I was really hoping that now that the characters were established, we would get an bold, original story of our beloved crew boldly going where no one had gone before.

Instead, we get a decent first half of the film, but they couldn’t figure out how to finish it so they tacked on Star Trek II 2: Khan is Still Bitter About It. But they even screwed that up and yet another deus ex machina to fill it out.

Last time, I was filled with anger. This time, disappointment. Unless the next film includes the phrase “written and directed by Joss Whedon”, I’m not going.

63. Jim Smith - May 8, 2013

Kind of amazing people feel they can judge a film they haven’t seen.

64. Robman007 - May 8, 2013

@57…

72 modified “weapons”….figure that one out

65. ACJG1985 - May 8, 2013

I agree with my peers on this one; Khan is described in Space Seed as having maraculous regenerative properties so I guess the blood thing shouldn’t really have surprised me. A Britsh Khan, well lets look at the period, during Khan’s creation India was still or has just been annexed from the British Empire so it’s possible and it fits, yes in the Cox novels Khan’s mother is of Indian decent but what’s to say Khan himself wasn’t crossed with European DNA, possibly Germanic for the strength atrribute and then that gene ramped up to the max and that’s how he ended up with a European appearance. I don’t want to see the Borg in TOS ever period but one person I’d love to see would be a de Lancie Trelain, it would be cool to see chemistry between Pine and de Lancie. Mildly upset that the Klingon affliction we got in Enterprise wasn’t carried through as our friends from Qu’nos clearly have ridges when Kor, Kang and Koloth clearly didn’t and we were introduced to Kor I believe in Countdown to Darkness and he did indeed have ridges, maybe they could contract it and appear on the view screen to have Kirk ask, “what happened to your face?” To the reply “we don’t discuss it with puny human pet’aq” that would be a neat tie in

66. Robman007 - May 8, 2013

@62..really, filled with anger? Wow, over the top.

@60..you don’t, as long as the films make money and as long as the movie going public both in and outside the US keep telling Paramount they want a Trek film that features “more action/adventure, less traditional “trekkie” moments.

67. Damian - May 8, 2013

51–Agree too. I’m actually glad I “spoiled” it. It sort of made me reassess my expectations. I am very disappointed they redid Khan. For one thing, let’s me honest, Cumberbatch is a great actor, but he looks and sounds nothing like Montalban. And why. Half the Star Trek movies were inspired by TWOK, did we really need yet another. A whole new world of possibilities and we resurrect a character already done perfectly. We have the Abrams team for maybe 3 movies and they waste a movie on Khan.

However, I am actually pleasantly surprised they used Section 31 in such a high profile role. Section 31 was an unexpected plot twist in DS9 and Enterprise. I never thought they would feature something from one of the spin-offs in such a high profile way.

I already eye-rolled myself to death when I learned of the ending. I can imagine the geekfest when they wrote that in. All I can think of was “Oh Brother.”

And did I read that right above, was the NX-01 featured in some way? That would be something new.

One other question. Was the 3-D worth shelling out the extra bucks?

68. Just Saying - May 8, 2013

Haven’t seen it yet, but I’m disappointed in the use of Khan regardless of Cumberbatch’s performance.

The main villain of TOS was NOT Khan. It was the Klingons, maybe also Romulans to a degree, though Romulans were done in ST2009. I would have much preferred the Klingons taking the center stage as villains instead of a back seat.

Kang. Kor. Koloth. Kruge. Chang. Take your pick.

I think JJ and co have actually missed a huge opportunity. They may make a decent 2nd trek film with Khan. But they could have made an amazing 2nd Trek movie with Klingons.

69. Just Saying - May 8, 2013

Oh and LoL at the people who voted STID as the BEST Trek movie. I admit I haven’t seen it yet, but still. The best Trek movie…..seriously? Get a grip.

70. sidewall - May 8, 2013

@66

Yes anger. Not “I shall leave you as you left me, as you left her, marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet” anger, but the anger you get when someone else’s incompetence ruins your good time. It’s like when you call an electrician and immediately after he’s done all the fuses blow (and not only does he refuse come back to fix whatever went wrong, he bills you twice).

71. Damian - May 8, 2013

69–Probably just initial excitement. As time goes on and people start to re-evaluate it, they’ll probably move it to it’s proper place.

I was always excited to see a new Star Trek movie, but I always fall back to TMP as being my favorite (yes, really, The Motion Picture).

They should do another poll in maybe 6 months after it’s settled into it’s place in Star Trek history.

72. Dennis Bailey - May 8, 2013

#60: “What can we do to get rid of JJ Abrams and his cohorts?”

Between the eight of you?

Not much. ;-)

73. Old - May 8, 2013

live from the theatre, the movie is great. no worries guys!

74. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 8, 2013

Yay – first to see this movie as a member of the international general public. It came on 12.05am 9 May in my local cinema in Auckland, NZ. Obviously people here have only just seen it within the last seven hours or saw it at a premier…

First of all, how can Chris Pine/Kirk look so gorgeous? He really is a honey…sigh

Second, this Rose (Keachick) went last night where she had not gone before – into 3D and it was fantastic! I had no problem with the “shades” at all. It was actually very cool. The movie’s visuals were great…
(I suspect that the people who have the most problems are people who are short sighted, ie need glasses to see things in the distance. I am the opposite. I need glasses to read books, computers etc, but cannot wear glasses when driving…)

Third, the characterization was good and certainly took Spock where he had not been shown to go before.

Fourth, the story was good. It had one or two facepalm moments but I can forgive that, because overall, it was told in an interesting and enjoyable way. Kirk, once again, takes a beating in more than one way, ie via John Harrison/Khan and through losing his mentor, surrogate father. That was a shitty moment for Christopher Pike. Janice will be upset.

I am not sure why John Harrison could not have just been John Harrison, who was one of the crew of the Botany Bay. The Khan Noonien Singh could have been left cryogenically frozen…The way the film finished, it allowed for the possibility of Benedict Cumberbatch being able to play Khan again in the future…hmmm

Carol Marcus survives and joins the crew of the Enterprise – YES Lt Uhura (Zoe Saldana) was very good. In fact, all the characters (actors) were good. Call it a bias or whatever, but Chris Pine as Kirk was the best!

Finally, my son came with me last night. He said, “Oh well, I guess you are taking me to see it in IMAX 3D on my birthday (15 May)”. That says it all really. We want to see it again and I, for one, can’t wait!

Well done, Bad Robot/Supreme Court!

75. Disinvited - May 8, 2013

#62. sidewall Wednesday, May 08, 2013 1:06 PM

“…anyone want to tell me why Nero wants to kill the one person who tried to help him?” – sidewall

I was of a like mind until Christopher Dorner killed the daughter (and her fiance) of of the one person defending him at his hearing. Now, I don’t question the irrationality of rage filled revenge as I once did.

76. Just Saying - May 8, 2013

@65 LOLWUT!

I don’t want to get into a Khan argument here since there have been plenty so far and all of them have bored me.

But I’ll reiterate these very SIMPLE facts as a TREK FAN, that some people seem happy to be intentionally ignorant of.

Alternate Timeline diverges AFTER Enterprise. Not a fan made rule. The Writer’s/Filmmaker’s rule. THEY set the rules of their fictional world as all filmmakers do.

Botany Bay launch took place BEFORE Enterprise. Thus not being altered by changes to the timeline by Nero.

Thus changes to Khan’s ethnicity make as much sense as Admiral Archer being referenced as Chinese in ST2009.

Now a simple line in STID of how Khan Noonien Singh is Indian, but was cosmetically altered to hide his identity by S31 would end all issues.

But some fans on the internet MAKING UP rubbish about him having a European father/DNA, while dismissing his CANON appearance in Space Seed and TWOK, as well as dialogue stating he is from North India, is laughable.

No one puts lines in a script for no reason. Khan is from ”North India” and is a ”Sikh”. Just because the line said ”probably” rather than ”He is definitely North Indian. Definitely a Sikh. I am 100 million percent sure of this. Strike me down if I am wrong. But I am not, I am 100 percent accurate in this statement”, does not change the intention of the series/episode makers stating his ethnicity as Indian.

Khan is Indian. End of.

77. RedEngineer - May 8, 2013

So, let me get this straight: It takes four long years to get a sequel into theaters, with the stated reason being that they “wanted to take the time to get the script right.” And what we end up with is yet another attempt to retread TWOK. And they take it a step further by actually lifting the entire climax of that film?

Great. Can’t wait to see it.

78. Disinvited - May 8, 2013

#60. Navy – May 8, 2013

Funny thing is, by creating an alt universe to Trek in, I think they agreed with you.

79. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 8, 2013

I don’t want to have my experience of this film ruined by what I read here. However, this nonsense about someone coming from Northern India definitely being a Sikh is just that. The fact is that Northern India is the birthplace of BUDDHISM, so it is also just as likely that someone coming from there could have been born into a family whose religion was Buddhism – no need for turbans, beards etc.

Space Seed writers did not stipulate beyond a shadow of a doubt that this Khan was a Sikh or follower of any particular religion or culture. All that was shown on Space Seed was that this Khan had a swathier skin colouring from that of a Caucasian like Kirk or Bones.

Khan means prince.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_%28surname%29

80. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 8, 2013

People should stop obsessing over whoever the villain might be. Star Trek is about the main characters who form the crew of the starship Enterprise, of Starfleet, planet earth, 23rd century.

81. Kobi - May 8, 2013

I knew it! Khan! Really good movie a bit predictable about the blood and the Tribble, but I enjoyed it.

82. Mel - May 8, 2013

I just saw the movie. It was entertaining. They practically recreate a few scenes from Star Trek II, just with a twist. Instead of Spock dying because of a radiation overdose, it was Kirk this time. There was also the hand to hand at the window scenes and Spock screamed Khan like old Kirk did when they killed his son David.

I was hoping though during the movie, that they don’t turn Khan completely bad this time. Before he shot at the Enterprise, his action were somewhat understandable and it wasn’t clear, if he is really completely bad. Admiral Marcus may have pressured him to some drastic actions, because he has his crew under his control. But then it got clear, that he is though and though bad.

Old Spock had also a cameo appearances and also he first said, that he didn’t want to talk about his reality so to not influence current Spock too much, hearing of Khan seemed to change his opinion.

83. Joe - May 8, 2013

so what happens with Chapel? i read somewhere that they mention her in the movie.

84. Phantom - May 8, 2013

My biggest disappointment in this movie is the Kirk and Spock friendship.
When you start to think that Spock is more in character (and respected as a character) with his girlfriend than with his friend Kirk there is something fundamentally wrong in his characterization. Boy’s crying, screaming and being homicidal in the end and these aren’t really things that would make me think about the character of Spock.
You think you can re-make the scene from TWOK and expect me to believe that these characters are best friends like original K/S when they’re hardly co-workers in these movies.

85. Just Saying - May 8, 2013

@79

I said I didn’t want to get into a debate. But I must question ignorance, and clearly you didn’t read my post properly.

The fact that he is from North India does not automatically make him a Sikh. The fact that it is STATED IN THE SCRIPT makes him a Sikh.

As I said. Space on a script is limited. You do not put in dialogue unless there is a point to it. There was no mention of Khan potentially being ”probably a Sikh or a Buddhist, maybe Hindu with some Jainism in there”, because the episode makers did not envision Khan as any of those. Only the terms ”North Indian” and ”Sikh” were mentioned, and they were not mentioned for a laugh. They were mentioned for a reason.

Actually, if you watch Space Seed you will see a portrait in Khan’s quarters of him wearing a Turban. A coincidence? Or a way of pointing out his identity without being on-the-nose. Have you even seen Space Seed?

A wikipedia article, lol. You can reference Khan all you want. Go look up Singh on wikipedia.

Anyway, like I said I don’t want to get into a debate, just challenging ignorant posts.

86. Nony - May 8, 2013

Simon Pegg’s gonna have some explaining to do, after outright saying they weren’t doing Khan/Wrath of Khan (whichever he meant) and that it was a myth. Either he lied (surprising and disappointing, especially from him) or Harrison isn’t actually *that* Khan. I wonder if we’ll get the complete picture from the novelization or sequel comics.

Also, in retrospect, John Cho’s pointed comment about TOS Khan being “a man of colour” in an interview is very interesting. Verrry interesting.

87. Moon - May 8, 2013

Well, since spoilers are galore here, can anyone tell me exactly what Uhura and McCoy do in the new movie? Do they get any decent lines/plots or it is really the Kirk/Spock show?

Thanks!

88. THX-1138 - May 8, 2013

Thank you #55 Josh C and #57 filmboy 34.

The trailers and mood of the film (from what I have seen) look really fun. I was genuinely interested in going to the theater and watching what I had hoped would be a new fun adventure for the crew of the E. All along I really, really, really didn’t want them to do their version of Khan. I hoped it was just a dumb rumor. And of course when they released the movie A MONTH AGO and the spoilers were posted (of course they were going to get posted-nice move with the “secrecy” thing) my heart sank.

I will be in the theater to see what it all looks like. And I am fully aware that there are tons of “implausibilities” in Trek. The thing is with eps like Spock’s Brain or Code of Honor I don’t like them so I don’t watch them. I am hoping that this is not the case with STID. But messing around with the Khan story or character seems like a gigantic misstep.

89. George Zip - May 8, 2013

So what happens to the ENTERPRISE herself? I’m not a fan of the design and wouldn’t mind seeing an overhaul when (if) there’s another film.

90. George Zip - May 8, 2013

FWIW, I kind of figured on the Khan angle, both from how they wanted the post-credits teaser in the ’09 TREK to roll (i.e., a Federation starship coming across the Botany Bay) (by the way, do we see the Botany Bay, either in person or flashbacks?) and, honestly, how movies have to be made these days: every time they make a new Batman, there’ll have to be a Joker. Ditto Superman and Luthor. So it just stands to reason they want to give Kirk his arch nemesis.

To me, it was either the Doomsday Machine or (pick a Romulan Commander or a Klingon), but it’s a new generation of movie-goers. They don’t go for the slow build/cerebral stuff.

91. Jever - May 8, 2013

@83 Chapel is a friend of Carol and did apparently hook up with Kirk some time ago. He can’t remember her, though.

Just came out of the pre-premiere here in Germany, and despite some doubts in advance, I pretty liked the movie (in big contrast to the last one). There was a plot element (transporter beam originating in San Francisco reaches Qo’nos), that caused me to facepalm, but then again, it had its roots in the last one (so – another reason to blame 09 ;-) )

I really liked the Enterprise in 3D, and this stupid warp effect from 09 has been replaced with something more pleasing.

92. Mel - May 8, 2013

83. Joe – May 8, 2013

“so what happens with Chapel? i read somewhere that they mention her in the movie.”

Yes, Carol Marcus mentioned her. She says to Kirk, that she knows of his reputation from Chapel. Carol says, that she is happy and a nurse far away (can’t remember where exactly) now. Kirk something a long the way of “good for her”. And Carol then says to Kirk: “You don’t even remember her, right”.

So in short it seems Chapel was one of Kirk’s numerous one-night-stands, he doesn’t remember anymore.

93. J - May 8, 2013

@Anthony: It should be also noted that Bulgarian premiere is on May 10th (with “early showing” on 9th @ 11:59pm)

94. Martin D. - May 8, 2013

Really the only thing that bugged my about the movie was Nimoy’s completely unnecessary appearance relatively late in the film. I loved his contribution to Trek 09, but this time it felt like fanservice. And it took me out of the movie because Quinto is Spock for me now.

Also, “Royal” Children’s Hospital? I don’t think Gene Roddenberry would approve of that at all.

But overall the plot was a big improvement over the slightly more dumbed-down Trek 09. Section 31 was always cool on DS9 and does not disappoint here either.

The reference to Harry Mudd and his ship made my day BTW. Good old Harry had a mini Millenium Falcon? Who knew? :-)

95. Pasty - May 8, 2013

It happened. We’ve seen INTO DARKNESS. My wife and I enjoyed the movie extremely. A great Star Trek movie, and a very good movie. A lot of fun, some strange plot points, but good drama, excellent actors (not only Cumberbatch) etc. etc. I really helps watching the movie unspoiled.

96. Daniel - May 8, 2013

Saw it 1 hour ago! I love it! It is great, fantastic and so awesome!
Or in German: “DAS WAR SO GEIL”

97. Disinvited - May 8, 2013

#76. Just Saying – May 8, 2013

If you had bothered to research and cite references:

http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/24.htm

You’d come to the realization of the absurdity of your claims.

“MARLA: From the northern India area, I’d GUESS. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors. ”

McGivers is an HISTORIAN – NOT an anthropologist or a member of the ship’s science staff. Note the word in her line I emphasized in all caps; an historian who made a guess. Do You have any idea how often historians “guess” wrong, especially in regards to ethnicity?

Sikh in no way gives a clue as to a person’s ethnicity either.

You have failed to provide any evidence that proves anything about the character.

98. NuFan - May 8, 2013

Was I right? About everything?

Just kidding. I’m always right about everything.

99. Cathi - May 8, 2013

Just saw the movie. And liked it.

Haven’t been spoilered much once I read that Kirk would be demoted to first officer I had decided to stop spoilering.

Had hoped it wouldn’t be Khan, but they made it kinda work. Nice believable backstory, although I saw the movie with some not-Trekkies and they didn’t grasp the reasoning or backstory of Khan, not enough screentime they said, found it rushed.

Had somehow reasoned out Kirks death scene when the first Pic came out at trekmovie with the hands, had thought it might end like that.
I was alright with the blood which seemed obvious once Kirk got in there and Spock screamed Khan. A lazy solution maybe, but they couldn’t let Kirk die and he is no vulcan and there’s no Genesis and they wanted the reversed death scene so what could they do?

Some minor mistakes or things made no sence, like: Why the hell use a helms ensign to replace a first engineer? Wouldn’t Khan out wit Spock and know that the torpedos had been activated? Scotty smuggling himself into that powerful warship?

Liked the plot and the story line. Had feared they’d turn it into a man hunt and shoot em up action packed vendetta, but they didn’t. They kinda respected Star Trek values and I appreciate that. Vendetta is bad and war even against the klingons as well -> nice.

I still don’t like the Uhura/Spock thing, but more because it’s so public and it makes them seem so unprofessional. But it didn’t upset me.

The one thing I really didn’t like was the reversed death scene.
You can’t just strip away 20 years of experience, history, relationship ; Change the roles and then quote almost the entire conversation.
That’s just. . . it seemed hollow and pathetic and artificial . . . and it was topped by Spocks ridiculous Khan scream.
It seemed more than a Star Trek parody than anything sensible.

Still, all in all a good movie. (Except for that copied scene) Holding up Star Trek values, having an interisting story, nice plot and a good mixture between humor, action and story. I’m looking forward to the third one-

100. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - May 8, 2013

I must get off this Thred with out reading anything. I Must wait till next Wednesday. I Must Resisit this Thred. Resisitance is Not Futile!. Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

101. TrekkerChick - May 8, 2013

@85

(in story context)

Chicken or egg? I got the impression that Marla McG painted the portrait, so if she thought he was a Sikh, she’d have painted the potrait with the turban…not that she glommed-onto a pre-existing portrait of Khan.

102. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

So, I’m finally back from my local movie theatre and what should I say? It’s one well-made and entertaining action movie. Definitely the kind of feelgood action flick you wanna kick off your summer with. Yet in this poll I had to go with “An OK Star Trek movie”. Why that? Well, it’s easy:
While it is a good action movie with a solid script and awesome visual effects, as a Star Trek movie it’s average at best. It’s so quote-laden that you get the feeling that it’s actually just SOME movie seasoned with loads and loads of quotes and references to make it SEEM to be a Star Trek movie. Granted, this movie’s take on Khan is indeed quite different and I liked it, which actually says a lot, because, when it became clear that there was some substance to all the Khan-rumours my first thought was: “Damnit, Jim! I was expecting originalitly!” And I still have some problems with Khan being actually some sort of “Trek-Wolverine” in that movie. Anyway, credit where credit’s due: The idea of Khan as a Federation agent who’s actually just a puppet was not bad!
But then… Chekov mugging at the camera when he’s told to wear a red shirt? SERIOUSLY? The ending scene being a shot-by-shot recreation of TWOK’s ending? Come on! Let alone the way another Nimoy-cameo has been shoehorned in there. I don’t know if Orci and Kurtzmann thought that would be the stuff that would keep “old school-trekkers” enthusiastic about the movie; I definitely found those things more distracting than great. I could go on, but I don’t want to create the impression that I didn’t like the movie as a whole because I defintely did. But if there’s one conclusion to draw from my movie experience, it would be that to me Star Trek is and always will be a TV-thing…

103. Mirror Universe John Harrison - May 8, 2013

If Khan has miracle magical blood why didn’t they inject it into Pike to being him back? Why not clone his blood and then no one in Star Trek will ever die.

Lame.

104. Stef* - May 8, 2013

Just back from pre-premiere (Germany)

What a great fun to watch and a brilliant twist in the story. I just love this Enterprise as I loved the Enterprise back in the sixties.

Don’t let you be spoiled to much by other opinions. It’s far, far better to be surprised oneself.

I will see this movie again and again and I want the DVD now.

105. Just Saying - May 8, 2013

@97 Ugh. I’m wasting my time arguing with morons. Do people bother to read posts properly these days? Or is it that points just seem to go over peoples’ heads.

Let’s just agree to disagree.

106. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@89: Minor overhaul by the end of the movie. Yet still not a bit more similar to the TOS-Enterprise

107. Mel - May 8, 2013

@ 84 Phantom

They really let Spock act VERY human again. I guess I have to get used to this very emotional Spock.

When it comes to the Kirk/Spock friendship, I guess the movie shows, that it is still evolving. They aren’t BFF at the start of it yet, but at the end they come near it. I guess in the next movie there will be from the start a strong friendship between them.

86. Nony

I think it is the Khan we know. He comes from the far past along with his crew just like in TOS.

87. Moon

I was positively surprised about the amount of things McCoy got to do. Much more than the trailers seem to imply. I think most of the things Uhura do where shown in some part already in trailers.

McCoy were running along with Kirk on Niburu. He gave a few times his opinion on the bridge. Sulu was for a time acting captain and McCoy has a fun conversation with him during that time. McCoy were also deactivating a torpedo with Carol. It didn’t work though and they nearly blew up. Carol manage to deactivate it just in time. There were also some sickbay scenes with Khan and later with Kirk.

Uhura was in a shuttle on Niburu, where Spock went into the vulcan. Then she got a scenes on the bridge. She also got a few girlfriend scenes for a lack of a better word. Showing concern and at other time anger towards Spock. There was an interaction between Kirk and her in the turbo lift, where they speak about Spock. I guess her best scenes was on Kronos. Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Hendorff and another security guy went there with the ship from Mudd’s daughter (was mentioned in the Countdown to Darkness comics). They wanted to get Khan, but they were surrounded by Klingon ships. They couldn’t fight their way out. So Uhura went outside the small ship all alone towards the Klingons as she alone speaks Klingon. She says something along the lines, that she wants to help the Klingons and warn them about a terrorist who has killed a lot of humans on earth and will do the same on Kronos. Unfortunately the Klingons don’t believe her and are shortly before killing her, when Khan intervene and rescue the Enterprise people. She comes across as very brace then. There is also a fight between Spock and Khan on a flying shuttle on earths. Uhura beams downs with a phaser and shoots tons of times at Khan until he is finally unconscious. She also prevents Spock from killing Khan in revenge, because they need Khan’s blood to rescue Kirk.

Sulu is for a time acting captain of the Enterprise and got a good scene then. Overall he is the character most short shifted of the classic TOS characters.

Chekov has it better. He is for a large part of the movie the chief engineer and gets a lot of do in that function.

Scotty gets also a lot of good scenes, some together with Keenser. He shows some backbone towards Kirk, when he refuses to allow torpedos he can’t scan onto the Enterprise, because they may be dangerous to the ship. So he and Keenser resign. They get a fun scene together in a bar. Then later Scotty goes on his own to a secret section 31 basis and smuggles himself onto the dreadnought of Admiral Marcus there. Admiral Marcus is as much a villain in this movie as Khan. He wants to destroy the Enterprise, but Scotty manage to prevent this in the last second. He also opens a air port of the dreadnought, so that Kirk and Khan can jump onto the dreadnought to take over the ship.

Carol has also a few nice scenes, like the deactivation of that torpedo with McCoy. She also practically smuggles herself on the Enterprise, because he suspects her father is doing something shady. She stands up to her father and is loyal to the Enterprise crew. She even said that to him, that if he want destroy the Enterprise, he has to do it with her on the ship. The scream from her we saw in the trailer made by the way sense. Khan did just killed her father brutally. He squashed his head with his mere hands. Her underwear scene was mere fan service though and it really didn’t make any sense. At the end of the movie she joined the Enterprise crew, so we probably will see her again.

So also Kirk and Spock got a lot to do, it wasn’t the Kirk/Spock show. I think the 2009 movie was more a Kirk/Spock show than this one.

108. IPIUIL - May 8, 2013

Sooo… every spoiler trekmovie posted back in April 2012 was correct! ^^
I really liked it. I don`t mind the huge Star Trek II references at the end, I like it that way.
The only two things that bother me are Khan’s new ethnicity (which could have easily been explained with a script line) and the recreation of their ending from 2009 (it’s literally the same ending with the same old star trek fanfare for the credits ^^)

109. Daniel Broadway - May 8, 2013

@109 IPIUIL

What do you mean it’s the same ending? The exactly same shot of the Enterprise jumping to warp?

110. Martin D. - May 8, 2013

@102: Well, the “TV thing” is absolutely dead at this point, and besides the existing ST series have pretty much covered every sci-fi plot imaginable, often several times. At least Star Trek as a summer blockbuster is something new and exciting that has not been done before like this. Much better than the stagantion that was Enterprise and Voyager.

But maybe if J.J. does SW now instead of directing the next ST, there will be less repetition in the next movie. Two shots of the Enterprise rising heroically out of the clouds are really enough. (Also, the soundtrack was almost identical to Trek 09 in many parts.)

111. Mel - May 8, 2013

@ 89 eorge Zip

The Enterprise got nearly destroyed. They were shot at a lot and nearly crashed on earth. They got earth so near, that the metal was turning red because of the heat already. But at the end of the movie everything is repaired and she looks like new.

@ 90. George Zip

If I remember right, they just said that the found Khan and the others in a ship at the edge of explored space. They didn’t show the Botany Bay and also didn’t mention that name.

@ 91. Jever

You are not alone with the transporter beam. The way they use it since 2009 is ridiculous. But yes, Scotty even mentioned, that they (I guess he means Starfleet’s secret service section 31) confiscated his formulas for it and was therefore doubly angry, that Khan got that information somehow and used it to beam to Kronos. So it was really based on what we have seen in 2009.

I guess they changed the warp effect, because of the 3D. I think those blue mist lines work good with the 3D effect.

112. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@109:
“The only two things that bother me are Khan’s new ethnicity…”
True. While Cumberbatch is doing one helluva job, there’s actually no real reason for him to be KHAN and not just Augment No. XX of 73 (at least I THINK there should be 73 of them if you’re including Khan himself…)
I kinda just SUPPOSED he had been “Briticised”/”Euoropeanised” in order to hide his true identity even better…. but of course at no point is this ACTUALLY implied…

“…and the recreation of their ending from 2009″
Yes, I totally agree. After all this made it seem as though the movie had no in-universe relevance at all.

113. Martin D. - May 8, 2013

@109: I think he means Kirk saving the ship by entering the core and getting irradiated, then dying. And the whole hands-on-glass touching.

Unfortunately, Pegg is no Doohan. That pained expression on Doohan’s face sold the scene in TWOK. Pegg tried hard but is not as effective.

114. IPIUIL - May 8, 2013

@109 Daniel Broadway
Yeah it’s
-the Star Trek monologue
-Kirk entering the bridge with his gold shirt
-slapping McCoy on the back
-jumping to warp
-Star Trek fanfare with credits for the main cast with crazy-art-style planets in the backround (It’s the exact same thing ^^)

It’s really not a big thing, but when I saw it, I really thought it was kind of strange to do it nearly the exact same way for two films in a row ;-)

115. LeoBerlin - May 8, 2013

Just came home from watching the movie. My thoughts…hm…a good movie. It’s fast. Too fast? I think there could be more silent or slower scenes.

There are a few references to the other Star Trek series like DS9 what I liked very much. The new engine room is great. The look of this movie is breathtaking however there are some designs I don’t like much.

The biggest thing – the story. A good one! So JH is Khan… I’m ok with it now but it was not the best decision of the writers in my opinion.

My suggestion: watch the movie but fasten seat belt! ;-)

116. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

I think that the fight between the Enterprise and the Dreadnoght was a bit too short.

117. KirksLove - May 8, 2013

You’re all so funny… the whole world is raving about that movie and especially the brilliant Cumberbatch… and you keep denying.

How could someone write a review here AND NOT EVEN MENTION Cumberbatch??? He is perfection in this movie.

118. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@113: Well no, he was clearly referring to the ending of “Trek ’09”. And as a matter of fact the ending IS almost identical: Kirk entering the bridge with an equally proud and amused expression on his face, asking Scotty how the warp drive’s doing and ultimately telling Sulu to “punch it” – cue to the end-credits accompanied by a re-arranged version of Courage’s original theme. It’s all there…

119. Harrison - May 8, 2013

Into darkness rockt!

120. Mel - May 8, 2013

@ 99

“The one thing I really didn’t like was the reversed death scene.
You can’t just strip away 20 years of experience, history, relationship ; Change the roles and then quote almost the entire conversation.
That’s just. . . it seemed hollow and pathetic and artificial . . . and it was topped by Spocks ridiculous Khan scream.
It seemed more than a Star Trek parody than anything sensible. ”

They really copied a lot there. It started when Spock got the call, while he was on the bridge, that he should come down until the Khan scream. The Khan scream was really ridiculous. It just felt out of character for Spock, even this overall much more emotional one. Maybe if he would have been BFF with Kirk for decades, then it may be not out of character. But at the start of the movie he even kind of betrayed Kirk and was the cause for Kirk losing his command.

104. Mirror Universe John Harrison

I guess Pike was too long dead. But yes Khan’s blood is the perfect “heal all wonder drug”. If they can clone it somehow, they can heal nearly everything.

121. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@118: Oh, I DID mention him just 7 comments ago. He was indeed great. He was menacing and entirely convincing. Yet the reasoning behind him being Khan and not an ENGLISH augment is…. oh well, the reasoning actually pretty clear: Let’s call it “brand recognition”… But truth to be told: While that’s one surefire way to make a movie work for a broad audience, you still don’t HAVE to find it great, do you?

122. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

whoops… Post no. 121 was actually directed
@117. KirksLove

123. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

Yeah, Spock screaming “Khaaan” was very awkward. It seemed right like out of an episode of Family guy!

124. smike - May 8, 2013

Thank you so much for opening this open thread now, for those who have finally seen the film. I’m glad it’s now possible to discuss spoilers without any second thoughts…

That said, my first impression of the film is rather mixed to say the least…for completely different reasons than I thought it would be…

No, the “copied scenes” related to TWOK aren’t part of my concerns. They proved to be quite effective and having these “coincidences” around in another timeline is exactly what I expected them to do.

Spock screaming “Khan” didn’t bother me one bit because it underlined the notion that his human side had taken him over in that scene and this is NOT OOC, because stuff like that had happened on TOS (though with different circumstances).

There were many aspects and scenes are really liked: Scotty’s moral strength that got him to quit, the entire Prime Directive / Nibiru issue, Spock and Uhura not getting along too well, Bones’ scenes throughout the movie that nailed the character once again, Spock Prime’s cameo and many more…

However there are some aspects that felt ENTIRELY wrong and – at this point, with this movie already being the second installment – unforgivable…

1. The authors seem to be unable to flesh out a logical storyline without plotholes so extensive they could swallow entire planets! Some of these make Nero’s motive issues and the Delta Vega thing almost minor quibbles.

1.1 The entire transwarp beaming to Kronos stuff… It’s hardly possible to swallow the idea that anyone could escape from planet Earth to a remote alien hostile world by using this device in the first place. But even if you accept that this was possible at all, WHY ON EARTH isn’t Starfleet able to USE THE EXACT SAME DEVICE to follow him??? The coordinates are still on display!!! No, they need a Starship to get there. Right? It doesn’t make one tad of sense…

1.2 The entire “torpedo conspiracy” seems to be so shoehorned and illogical it hurts. Or have I missed something? First Khan tries to hide his fellow augments in those torpedos, with the old historical cryotubes fitting exactly with the fuel compartments (which contracts TOS visuals, but so be it…) Then he is caught by Section 31 doing so. Right? He believes his family to have been killed, Section 31 hides those torpedos, Khan begins his blaze of vengeance and then Section 31 puts them onboard the Big E, with orders to fire them on Kronos (how so, if they don’t have any fuel?)? That alone doesn’t make ANY sense at all…

But now we have Sulu giving that ultimatum speech! Is he nuts? What if Khan had another transwarp device? He could escape to Romulus or the Borg Homeworld before those torpedos even hit Kronos!

Also I’m having a hard time believing torpedoes could be launched from the Neutral Zone on spot, but okay, we’ve got drones these days and that was an obvious allegory to current themes…Granted!

I take it Section 31 only put those torpedos aboard the Enterprise to lure Khan out of hiding on Kronos, but you have to really think hard to get that. Is it really necessary to cook up such elaborated plot devices that are only going to put a stress on audiences?

2. My second issue however is even more of a nuissance. The writers seem to have fun from flushing Star Trek lore out of the airlock FOR ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE! Now, the Enterprise being able to dive under water for a limited time is a non-issue, especially since it is adressed as being a stupid idea by Scotty and since it does have an important dramatic purpose…

However, there are minor issues that don’t serve ANY PURPOSE at all…

2.1 The Klingon moon Praxis already blown up… It’s a short shot only, that would be overlooked by any general audience, but for Trekkies it’s a kick in the backside. The Praxis incident is one of the most pivotal moments in Trek history, it’s the turning point in Federation-Klingon relations and a major factor in one of the best classic Trek movies ever. Showing this moon already in pieces is a major offense that is absol-freakin-lutely superfluous!

2.2 Even worse that android on the bridge of the Big E…Now I could have accepted an android as part of Section 31’s secret projects. But GATT2000 is only there, standing around, pushing some buttons and uttering one or two lines… not on board the Vengeance but onboard a regular Starfleet vessel, although it had been established that DATA was the first android serving in Starfleet! It would be forgivable if this character served any dramatic purpose. But having him standing around there, just for the sake of it, is a major offense…

You know, this time these plotholes hurt even more. With ST09 most of them were forgivable, one-time slips. Now it’s becoming a habbit NOT TO CARE. They simply don’t give a flying starship about even getting their own stories right, not to take about Star Trek history at all… They just do it because they can and don’t have to care…

The new Klingon look is another example for that attitude. We had tattoed Romulans, so why not having pierced Klingons? Alright with me! But why changing the EYES??? Again… just for the sake of it! We spent 40 years discussing Klingon forehead ridges. Now it’s those Sith eyes we’ll have to worry… Why?

125. Apollo (formerly Xindi1985) - May 8, 2013

Greetings from Germany!
7/10 Points!
Wonderful movie with great character-moments including the villian.
Don’t be afraid, there are no (Prequel)Star Wars-like effect scenes! ;-)
Good 3D-effects.
Prepare for VERY sad moments.
Enjoy the movie… :-)

126. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

The Death-scene of Pike: The most touching moment in the film. I really was sad like when Obi-Wan sort of “dies” in Star Wars.

The reversed Spock/Kirk death-scene at the end? Not so much. Like Spock screaming “Khaaan” it felt very forced.
Best scene in the film? The cameo of Leonard Nimoy! I got goosebumps.

127. KirksLove - May 8, 2013

How can you idiots spoil everything???

128. Mel - May 8, 2013

Is anyone else disappointed, that after Kirk and Khan took over the dreadnought, that Khan turned against Kirk and the Enterprise? I was hoping that they gave it a twist and don’t make Khan completely evil. Everything he did before could be somewhat explained, because of what Admiral Marcus did to him. I was hoping that he changed.

By the way another sign that it is the Khan we know from TOS is, that in Space Seed and in this new movie there are exactly 72 other frozen crew members.

129. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

Some people here complaining about the different appearance of the Klingons. That does not bother me at all, as we should be very accustomed to the fact, that the Klingons look different in almost every new movie.
The Klingons have the most inconsistent appearance in all of Star Trek. It always was, and always will be.

130. Tommbe - May 8, 2013

Got my 3d glasses….15 minutes to go….Thrusters on full 😀

131. Mel - May 8, 2013

@ 127

There are tons of warnings, that this thread is for people who have seen the movie to talk about everything they want. Haven’t you read this part:

“You can vote in the latest poll and chat about the movie below including spoilers (if you haven’t seen the movie you may want to avoid this thread).”

Why do you read this thread, if you don’t want to see spoilers?

132. smike - May 8, 2013

@127: Ahm…why do you read these spoilers? It’s clearly stated that this is a spoiler thread… If you haven’t seen the film and don’t want to be spoiled, STAY OFF… The warning’s given at the bottom of the article… It’s not our fault you can’t read…

133. Mel - May 8, 2013

There about 5 warnings in the article, that this thread will include spoilers, most of them in bold. Can it be more clear than this:

WARNING: This open thread is for people who have seen the movie. If you haven’t seen the movie you really shouldn’t be reading this as you are sure to get spoiled.

134. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

Ah btw, i had hoped that the writers somehow might explain that Khan suddenly had become a white dude. Some hint maybe, that his appearance once was different, and that he underwent some sort of face-surgery.
But no.
I know that this is an alternative timeline, and that the rules are different but Khan was already born before the timeline had changed. A face-surgery is the only explanation for his new appearance.
They should have explained it.
Or did i just miss it?

135. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@124:
Maybe I can ease your pain … or maybe I just got some things wrong:

ad 1.2: I THINK you’re mistaken. I understood that even section 31 had no idea of Khan using the torpedo casings to hide his crew. As far as I understand that was the reason why he decided to blow up the their headquarters in the first place – in order to delete any possible record oh him meddling with the torpedoes.

ad 2.1: I had aproblem with that as well, but actually there’s no way to know whether that moon is supposed to be Praxis. And if so: To my understanding starfleet was getting nervous about the Klingons becoming increasingly dangerous after the destruction of Vulcan, so MAYBE in that timeline the Klingons simply upped the ante concerning their mining operations on Praxis and it actually exploded a lot sooner than in the Prime timeline, at a point at which not even a single step towards peace between the Klingon Empire and the Federation had been taken to boot.
While I have to admit that this reasoning is not entirely sound, it’s still POSSIBLE, isn’t it?

136. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@134: No, you didn’t miss it, the only hint toward that POSSIBILITY (not a hint to any fact, mind you) being that Khan had actually already been an undercover operative for 1 year…

137. smike - May 8, 2013

@134: I still don’t have a problem with that race issue. BC is just an actor playing a role. Like an Englishman playing a certain French Captain. His voicework and acting is Montalban all over again… He may not look the part completely but neither does Pegg ressemble Doohan… A Caucasian not being allowed to play an Indian guy would be inverse “negative racism”…

If James Bond will be one day played by a black actor (and you bet that’ll happen), Shaft should be legitimately played by a white actor. If we want to overcome racial boundaries, it has to work both ways…

138. IPIUIL - May 8, 2013

@124 and 135
Wow… Looks like I somehow missed an exploding moon in the movie. xD
When did that even happen?

139. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

@137
Yeah, i can understand this whole “negative racism-issue”, but on the other hand i’ll always get horrible flashbacks about John Wayne playing Genghis khan in The Conqueror when something like this happens.
I’m not so sure about this. In retrospect i would have preferred Benicio del Toro.

140. smike - May 8, 2013

What felt a bit odd was Kirk’s attitude towards Sulu in the Captain’s chair. He felt that Sulu wasn’t ready to be Captain. But he himself got there with absolutely no experience as a third-year cadet! At least Sulu has had some outer space experience on the bridge…

BTW: Why I DID indead like the reverse TWOK elements, I thought the TSFS references were even better: Scotty once again sabotaging a huge starship with transwarp(?) capability was a nide nod to TSFS…

141. Mel - May 8, 2013

I think they just had a somewhat destroyed Kronos moon, probably Praxis, because it looks cooler than a whole one. ;-)

142. smike - May 8, 2013

@138: It’s right there when they arrive in that trading ship at Kronos…the Klingon moon is shattered to pieces.

@135: Sound theory on Praxis! Maybe you’re right and the Klingons really overused their power supplies earlier, possibly due to the Nero incident. The planet itself seems to be overly industrialized as well. The more I think of it… It’s good to be able to discuss these topics. Maybe my initial quibbles will be satisfied within the next days (and further watchings of the movie)…

143. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

@140
“But he himself got there with absolutely no experience as a third-year cadet”

Although i hated the rocket-fast promotion of Kirk in the previous film, i was delighted that they somehow took it back in STID. As fast as Kirk can become a Captain as fast as he can become cadet again. And if Pike would not have died he would have been indeed put again back to the academy.
That was cool. In some ways Bob Orci and Alex took some of the fan-criticism to heart.

144. Anthony Pascale - May 8, 2013

you never know what one fan will like and another will bristle at. I liked the Praxis thing because I saw it as showing this universe is different and the fanon answer is simple: In the post Kelvin era, the Federation and the Klingons both ramped up R&D and production. This caused need for more Power usage for the Empire than in prime timeline, leading to earlier meltdown of Praxis.

145. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@138: No, not EXPLODING… EXPLODED already if anything.
There was this shot of Qo’noS (which by the way looked absolutely astonishing in 3D – usually not a fan of 3D, but that was just flippin’ great to look at) with a very large moon, that had obviously been half-destroyed, orbiting the planet (at somewhat unrealistic proximity)

146. Tobias Richter - May 8, 2013

Just saw the movie…

The visuals are extremely well done, as one would expect – with two exceptions. One the hillarious brewe…. ahem engine room and various other “sets”, that either looks like it was filmed at Cern or in the server room of a big company. The contrast between this and the stylish bridge and corridors is just unbelievable. The other one is that ugly big ship. It´s 2 or 3 times bigger then the E, and they reason that because it needs only a skeleton crew. What????? Did I mention it´s ugly?

Then there are our heros – the main focus is on Kirk/Spock, which is fine. Bones on the other hand has basically nothing to do in this movie and just delivers some banter with Spock (which is nicely done). Uhura and Sulu each get their nice piece of the action, Scotty has a little more to do but is pretty much out of character – and Chekov has to be the clown again. I feel sorry for the kid!

Fortunately, they did not have the big scientific nonsense bugs they had in the first movie – but that intergalactic phonecall surely counts in my book.

I enjoyed the first half of the movie quite a lot – it has a nice story, some nice action, good character interaction, drama. But then it gets deep down into darkness and never comes back. I still can´t believe what I´ve seen in the second half. Copying Trek 2 almost word for word, scene for scene. I felt insulted.

In the end, Kirk gives the nice opening speech of the classic series – and THAT is what I want to see – explore strange new worlds, not muddle in all-to-well known territory. I want to feel the sense of wonder in the cinema, not rush from one action sequence to the next, no matter how well they are done. Leave that to that other “Star” franchise. Unfortunately, I seem to be in the minority.

147. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@144: Haha, exactly my rationale ;)

148. smike - May 8, 2013

@135:
“I THINK you’re mistaken. I understood that even section 31 had no idea of Khan using the torpedo casings to hide his crew. As far as I understand that was the reason why he decided to blow up the their headquarters in the first place – in order to delete any possible record oh him meddling with the torpedoes.”

I’m 99% sure that Khan mentions his intial attempt at hiding his family in those torpedo tubes had been uncovered by Admiral Marcus. That’s where they completely lost me… I just couldn’t make any sense of that mess… Maybe I’ve missed something. After all, they have worked on this script for quite a while and wouldn’t leave such a gaping plothole, would they? But then, we got Delta Vega in ST09…you never know :-)

149. Ruue - May 8, 2013

Just came back an Hour agonfrom the German Premiere:
Linkes the Movie very much, more than I expected.
Pros:
– Cumberbatch / introduction of khan
– interaction between Spock and kirk
– central moral issues of Star Trek were presented
– prime directive
– pike
– lovely allusions and references (eg model of nx-01, section 31, 5 year mission…)
– action
– old Spock guest appearance

Cons
– Scotty is just too much a comedian
– a lot of exaggerated aggression from kirk and sock towards khan
– sulu totally useless
– German dub (horrible)
– 3D catastrophe hated it will never again watch a 3d flick too dark and to low definition
– carol Marcus not really worth being jn the plot
– too many stereotypical moves from admiral Marcus

Will watch it again but only in 2D and in the original version. Hope they show this version here. Overall in my estimation great Star Trek movie and better than the 09 movie

150. smike - May 8, 2013

@143: “And if Pike would not have died he would have been indeed put again back to the academy.”

Nope. He would have become Pike’s first officer. Pike had talked Marcus into abandoning those Academy plans before he died. He death only made him Captain again…

But you are absolutely right. Taking back some of that superfast promotion was a good idea…

151. Jim Smith - May 8, 2013

@76 Hey, as an actual ethnic Indian, I honestly have to ask you, what makes you think it is better for Khan to be played by a Mexican than an english guy, cos neither is “right”. Genuine question.

152. Mel - May 8, 2013

145. KHAAAN the weasel – May 8, 2013

“a very large moon, that had obviously been half-destroyed, orbiting the planet (at somewhat unrealistic proximity)”

True. It was so near, that it looks like it is crashing into Kronos. :-P

153. Anthony Pascale - May 8, 2013

Here is the flow of Khan/Marcus/torps.
1. Destruction of Vulcan leads Federation and Starfleet to explore more (lead by Adm. Marcus)
2. Some unkown ship finds Botany Bay (only Khan is revived)
3. Marcus ‘recruits’ Khan into S31 (renames him John Harrison) and forces him to help militarize Starfleet by holding rest of Khan’s crew hostage
4. Khan complies for a while including developing new torpedoes
5. Khan tries to escape with his crew by hiding them in torpedoes
6. Khan is discovered and escapes alone, is lead to believe Marcus kills his crew
7. Khan goes on rampage of revenge against Marcus and Starfleet (using London attack to enact emergency protocol that gets Marcus and captains in one room together so he can kill them ala Godfather III)
8. Khan escapes to Qo’noS
9. Marcus gives Kirk torpedoes and orders him to fire them at Qo’noS (killing khan, the crew, and sparking war….a threefer for Marcus!)
10. Kirk goes to Qo’noS but defies orders and doesn’t fire torps, Sulu threatens Khan with torps
11. When Khan confirms Kirk has his torps (asking him “how many”) he surrenders

154. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

@149
” – German dub (horrible)”

Well, i think the german dub was comparable to that of the previous film. However, i hated the fact that they again changed the voice of the old Spock. I know that the original voice-actor is dead since more than 10 years, but at least show some consistency.

155. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@146: you’re not THE Tobias Richter, right? I mean the one who has done all that amazing CGI-stuff.
I think to some Trekkies the “Vengeance” is about as “SFX-fanservice-y” as it gets. Nevertheless, I also didn’t like the thought of a Starfleet ship that looks a lot like a giant F-117 but after all, in the movie we are given a pretty good rationale behind the creation of such a monster… so I’d consider it at least “tolerable”.
The one special effect that really pissed ME off though, was the Enterprise leaving behind a trail of “stardust” when going to warp. THAT was unneccessary and also completely illogical.

156. IPIUIL - May 8, 2013

@154 Exverlobter
Yeah, I really hated that too. Wonder why Norbert Gescher didn’t reprise his voice work… :-(

157. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@153: Well, but then it IS completely illogical for Marcus to think that Kirk firing the torps at Khan from such a huge distance would make any sense let alone have any CONSEQUENCES, as it’s made quite clear, that the torpedoes in their current state don’t have any means of propulsion whatsoever.

158. smike - May 8, 2013

@153: Thanks, but that line up of events even further darkens the issue. My questions are:

1. Did Adm. Marcus know the torpedoes didn’t have any fuel tanks because they had been replaced by cryo chambers?

2. If so, why did he put them onboard Enterprise? To lure Khan out of hiding on Kronos?

3. If not, what else had he uncovered concerning Khan’s activities?

4. Why did Kirk order Sulu to set that ultimatium? That would have given Khan the opportunity to escape, if he had another transwarp beaming device at hands (or any other way)… That speech felt so odd…

It’s even hard to ask these questions in the first place because it’s all a bit blury…

159. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

BTW, for days there was a big debate on Trekmovie about the now infamous Alice Eve underwear-shot. And many people (like myself) defended the scene, as we did not know yet how the scene would play out in the context of the movie.
Well, somehow i agree now, it feels forced!
I really did not get it, what was the reason that she had to put of her clothes? If it is relevant to the story like Sigourney Weavers famous underwear scene in ALien , than this is OK.
But again, i admit now, that this scene is totally pointlessin Into Darkness.

160. Mel - May 8, 2013

149. Ruue

What didn’t you like in regards to the German dub? Personally I didn’t find anything wrong with it.

161. GermanTrekker - May 8, 2013

Just saw the movie and I simply loved it. Beautiully written character scenes. The “reactor scene” is close to TWOK, but there are still some differences, and that … scream … well I just didn´t expect it in that moment!

162. Anthony Pascale - May 8, 2013

Well BobOrci would be better at answer questions. But I got the sense the torps were still functional to a degree that that Marcus knew Khans crew was in them. He hoped that Kirk in his rage over Pike’s death would follow orders and fire on Khan’s location. this would kill khan, kill the crew and Marcus hoped it would also spark a war, which was his ultimate goal. He also sabotaged the ship to help set kirk up. It was essentially Gulf of Tonkin.

Kirk ordered Sulu to warn Harrison in hopes that Harrison would not put up a fight and would surrender under threat of destruction. Kirk must have assumed Harrison had no means of escape.

at least that is how I saw it with two viewings. I will see it again tomorrow so i will pay closer attention. But lets face it, the torpedoes are this movie’s red matter. Probably best not to think too deeply about them. (sorry Bob)

163. Mel - May 8, 2013

@ 159

I am really not sure, why she was in her underwear. Did she wear any special clothes directly after that scene? I can’t remember.

164. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

Well, they still did not get rid of the Budweiser-Engine room but i do indeed think that they improved the look of it. I never understood what the Warpcore was supposed to be in the previous film. THose large beer tanks? Well although totally inconsistent with previous warpcores, this one indeed looked somehow like one, and not like, well a beer-tank.
And thankfully those pointless water-pipes, where Scotty once was swimming, were absent in STID.

165. GermanTrekker - May 8, 2013

In addition, nice Countdown to Darkness reference (a gap for someone who hasn´t read it! Or do you know the “Mudd Incident”?), great looking Klingons and language. The Klingon music is awesome, Nibiru aliens and plant life are marvellous. A little too close to The Dark Knight at times, but all in all just the way you want a TOS movie to be. And it really feels exotic.

166. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@162. This movie’s red matter indeed. But in a way I felt that just too much of the plot revolved around them, for them to be just a classic MacGuffin. So, to me, while I think that the movie has an enjoyable overall-feel, that plothole (assuming that I really DID get everything right) is just way too large to ignore. But yeah, let’s see what BobOrci has to say about the matter (should he choose to talk about it)

167. Sebastian S. - May 8, 2013

@ Just Saying~

“Thus changes to Khan’s ethnicity make as much sense as Admiral Archer being referenced as Chinese in ST2009.

Now a simple line in STID of how Khan Noonien Singh is Indian, but was cosmetically altered to hide his identity by S31 would end all issues.

But some fans on the internet MAKING UP rubbish about him having a European father/DNA, while dismissing his CANON appearance in Space Seed and TWOK, as well as dialogue stating he is from North India, is laughable.

No one puts lines in a script for no reason. Khan is from ”North India” and is a ”Sikh”. Just because the line said ”probably” rather than ”He is definitely North Indian. Definitely a Sikh. I am 100 million percent sure of this. Strike me down if I am wrong. But I am not, I am 100 percent accurate in this statement”, does not change the intention of the series/episode makers stating his ethnicity as Indian.”

_________________________________

No, you’re not wrong.
The line of Marla’s was (when looking at Khan), “From the northern India area, I’d guess. Probably a Sikh. They’re the most fantastic warriors.”

The fact that traditional Sikhs do not trim their beards and that Khan is clean shaven is odd, but again; he was readily identified as Indian, at least. A simple line in STID about Khan being surgically altered by Section 31 to avoid detection would acted like a band-aid over this otherwise racially ridiculous casting.

* BTW, your Chinese Archer line was classic. LOL! ;-D

Another problem I have with the story is that its essentially the Augments trilogy story from ENT (augments threaten war with the Klingons; Enterprise is sent to stop them) combined with the ending of WoK (with the roles reversed). We wait FOUR years for a new ST movie, and we end up with a patch-work quilt of rehashed story elements from ENT and WoK. They just doused the whole thing in steroid sauce (and some “magic blood” courtesy of Khan), put in an A-list actor (Cumberbatch) and called it an original movie. What it lacks in originality, it’ll probably make up for in sheer amplitude.

What a shame….

168. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

Yes, those torpedoes. I have to admit, i did not fully understand that whole plotpoint, as well as my brain had not enough capacity to fully listen to Michael Giacchinos score.I will focus on that the second time i watch STID.
First verdict. It almost felt identical to the first score, but i will listen more closely the next time.

169. Mel - May 8, 2013

@ 162

I think the beaming across the galaxy is beating the torpedos. I can buy long range weapons easier than beaming among across tons of lightyears, where stars, planets, black holes, meteorites, etc. are in the way.

I agree with your timeline. It makes the most sense. I will just ignore the line about how the cryo chambers replaced the fuel tanks. It probably was just bad writing, which created a plot hole. ;-P

170. ACJG1985 - May 8, 2013

@151 you got there before me; what upset me is the narrow mindedness in the assumption that Khan is a Sikh and therefore must be Indian (I conseed due to the time line maybe he should look more like Ricardo but oh well) may I remind my learned friend @76 that Sikhism is a religion and can be practiced by anyone just as Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Muslim or Budism that’s like saying “oh someone is Muslim he must be Saudi Arabian” I personally am English and disgusted by our conduct in India but that sadly is history. What has never been established anywhere other than in the Cox novels is where Khan is from and what his religious beliefs are so I ask again, what is stopping Khan’s creater (we assume his mother) furtilizing her egg with genetic material from anywhere else in the world and the result being a non-Indian looking Sikh? We don’t yet know what happened this time after Khan thawed out maybe he lost his skin pigmentation, which can happen, maybe he disguised his voice or was forced to what Section 31 got hold of him I don’t know, what I do know if from everything I’be heard Ben makes a wonderful Khan and blows everyone else off the stage. We were asked to put a lot of faith in the original series as not was always explained, why can’t we put faith in this? To 151 Jim Smith I apologize even if my point of view here is incorrect or my opinion seems narrow minded, you are of course correct if Khan was indeed a person of Indian desent he should have been cast as such and this again has never been explained by Robbenberry or anyone else

171. GermanTrekker - May 8, 2013

And for a movie that´s got Into Darkness in its title … well, there´s a whole lot of humor in it! (Except for the dramatic finale, of course)

172. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

BTW, when they mentioned Section 31, for about a second i somehow thought, that they’ll gonna connect the storyarc of Peter Wellers Admiral Marcus with Wellers Paxton from Star Trek Enterprise.
Because in that season there was also a story arc about section 31, and 2 episodes later Paxton appeared.
But just for a second, lol.
Then i thought it would not make any sense at all.

173. joe1306 - May 8, 2013

Just saw it… Wow, thats all i can say for now… just wow. Go see this movie ASAP people!

174. ACJG1985 - May 8, 2013

I make a slight addendum in that yes it was established Khan was a Sikh and from North India in Space Seed. My appogies if my post seemed disjointed (it did to me proof reading) writing a heated post on a phone is not easy and my concern about narrow mindedness is not pointed at 151 but at 76. I conced two points, one maybe they should have cast someone who looks more like Ricardo And second if he is truly of Indian decent then why was an Indian not cast, ok major points clarified, hope that helps

175. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

@171
“And for a movie that´s got Into Darkness in its title … well, there´s a whole lot of humor in it!”

Indeed. I think this movie wasn’t dark at all, “Nemesis” was way darker.
Abrams said once, that Into Darkness will be like the Dark Knight of the new Star Trek-Trilogy, but i cannot see a real connection between both franchises.

176. joe1306 - May 8, 2013

@4 You should be ashamed! Sad sad sad… =(

177. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 8, 2013

When prime Kirk screams “Khan” in TWOK, he is in the Genesis cave where we are lead to believe that he, Carol Marcus, David and Dr McCoy are marooned. Spock in STID screams “Khan” after he sees Kirk die.

When Pike died, the constitution of Khan’s blood was not known. The only reason Kirk survived was because Dr McCoy put Kirk in cryogenics very soon after he died, because he needed more of Khan’s blood. It is likely that had not Dr McCoy got Kirk into the chamber quickly enough, he too would have died. Khan’s blood was able to regenerate damaged cellular structures. Death is a process which happens in stages…

178. Mel - May 8, 2013

That new Khan doesn’t look like old Khan is just like how new Kirk doesn’t look like old Kirk. You just have to pretend, that they look the same. Otherwise you also have to wonder, how old Spock could recognize Kirk on Delta Vega.

There is no in-universe reason for all characters looking different than in TOS. The off-universe reason is obviously, that other actors were cast to play them.

179. Mel - May 8, 2013

@ 176

I think this part

“(for now we are asking people to avoid the biggest spoilers until the film is open in most markets by May 17).”

only applies to the review page. It seems that may have confused some people into thinking, that this thread is suppose to be without any major spoilers.

180. Anthony Pascale - May 8, 2013

RE: Spoilers
After asking people to hold their tongues now that the movie is out this open thread was the first chance to let it all out but with warnings for people to avoid.

I meant it that if you havent seen the movie you should not be discussing it in this thread. How can you talk about something you haven’t seen?

As for the fan review page, that has the same spoiler policy we have had, which is to avoid the big spoilers at least until the movie arrives in N. America.

Handling spoilers has been a tricky issue since Australia premiere. But only one more week and all that will be over.

181. Jim - May 8, 2013

Just saw it and… Well, i was waiting four years for THAT?
I am going to rewatch TNG beginning tommorow. That will help;)

182. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 8, 2013

I think I may have revealed a bit too much. Ooops, sorry people. Just forget what I wrote.

Anyway, I have one or two questions that seeing the movie a second time should clarify for me.

Go see. Enjoy because there is much that is good about Star Trek Into Darkness.

183. Mike MCP - May 8, 2013

Maybe they can cast Will Smith as Hans Solo in the next Star Wars movie. Even better, Spielberg (Abram’s idol) can cast Anton Yelchin to play Barack Obama when he gets around to making the President’s biopic.

184. Aix - May 8, 2013

I wonder how America will react to this whitewashing issue. And how Paramount/ Bad Robot will handle it. Things could get messy with lots of people blamed. Even the actors.

185. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

BTW; i think they did a little bit of over-dramatisation in the adds.
“Earth will fall”.
Cumberbatch constantly talking about “You think your world is safe”.
After seeing the movie, well, let’s face it:
Nero was a more dangerous villain to Earth and Starfleet than Cumberbatch was.

186. NCC-73515 - May 8, 2013

kirk is not dead, but unconscious, therefore it all still makes sense.
the revelation of khan was not as shocking as i thought, because i had read it before and had 2 weeks to get adjusted to it.
gatt2000 had no function at all and could have been left out.
the vengeance at warp sounds like an old propeller plane!
thank god the colors on the torpedoes were changed from pink to red.
the models on marcus’ table include the xcv 330!
the 31 uniforms were absolutely ugly and weird.
how the hell spock prime helped them is beyond me. they defeated khan because of his 2d thinking back then. how did that help young spock?!
the soundtrack is very repetitive, and the only track that sticks out is the piano music in london. the rest of it is basically 2009 plus BAM BAM.
the worst part is the very very very small cameo of the klingons. at least they sounded right. but if you’re gonna have swords, the hell show them!
the best part is that finally MORALS are back. parallels to real controversial events are back.
opposition to military missions! opposition to a manhunt with the goal of killing the suspect instead of having him face trial!
bottom line: even more enjoyable as the last one, very much in line with previous trek, certainly one of the top 3 trek films!

187. Aix - May 8, 2013

@67 Uhm… that’s the point. He’s not Montalban’s Khan. He’s a different creature altogether. I don’t think JJ and Cumby tried to imitate Montalban at all. That is why he could have been an entirely different villain and still be as bad-ass, actually even more bad-ass than TWoK Khan.

So my problem with this is, why call him Khan at all? Now they’ve just put themselves in trouble with all these race and continuity issues!!!

188. WillH85 - May 8, 2013

I say it’s bull that they release an American made film based off an American franchise to a bunch of other nations in the world before we get it. That would be like if we got Doctor Who episodes here in the US days before they did in the UK. I don’t think they’d be too happy about that. Slap in the face to the US audience I say.

189. Al - May 8, 2013

I would have used take 2 for the scene where the dog sniffs Noel Clarkes wife’s breasts, but overall that was rather good.

190. Selir - May 8, 2013

I for one loved the small reference to the game (McCoy had to do a c-section on a Gorn female)! Overall a really good movie but not as great as I hoped but will definitely see it again!

191. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

The blue Uniforms on the Dreadnought looked a bit silly.

192. Weizentobi - May 8, 2013

Have you guys seen the Phoenix and N-01 models in Adm.Marcus office? Loved it! Felt really good to see them!

193. Weizentobi - May 8, 2013

*NX-01

194. Exverlobter - May 8, 2013

BTW Dreadnought, i think i’ve spotted Scott Lawrence for about a second there. He played Commander Sturgis Turner on JAG.

195. Reiko2088 - May 8, 2013

@149: I’m glad to have watched the movie in its original version, but I will see it in German on Friday – I still hope it’s not too bad …

STID is (imho) definitely better than ST09 in almost every aspect. It still has weaknesses (some of which are hard to overlook), but they are outweighed by its entertainment value, great actors, great visuals, nice character interaction, enjoyable plot and pacing and an outstanding villain.
Engineering is still a brewery, but at least the inner warp core looks a little more high-tech.
Thankfully, there is no overuse of shaky-cam-effects.
The humor is mostly spot on and never feels exaggerated (no numb tongue and goofy balloon hands :))

Now, as a fan of coherent “Treknology”, there were (at least) two major issues that made me cringe (besides the surprisingly handy subspace-transportation-device):
1. Why can’t the transporter get a lock on Khan and Spock on a moving platform, yet has no problems beaming Uhura down to that exact same platform???
2. Kirk (near Kronos) is able to contact Scotty’s communicator (in San Francisco). They also manage to travel the distance from Earth to Kronos and back within what seems to be mere minutes (Scotty mentions having been absent for only a day).
Since when is Klingon space in Earth’s neighborhood? Are those two planets not supposed to be at least a few dozen lightyears apart? Would it really have been that hard to adapt the plot accordingly in order to not blatantly ignore distances/warp-speed?
That might sound nit-picky to some, but I find such huge, yet easily avoidable mistakes rather disappointing, especially since ST09 was criticized exactly for such reasons.
Sometimes it is just better to favor consistency and logic over cinematography if you don’t want to spoil the immersion and overall experience …

196. Josh C. - May 8, 2013

180 – you have no idea how close I came to boycotting this movie once I found out Harrison was Khan, but I’m giving it a chance, partly because it has been getting good reviews, even from some Trek fans. But I can tell you I’m going to be going into it with a VERY skeptical eye. I think Khan was just one of those people they couldn’t redo, especially to this degree.

As far as “whitewashing” Khan, I think those saying his race doesn’t matter are wrong, even more so than any characters who may have been born after Nero’s incursion. I think there ARE plausible explanations (cosmetic surgery) and I suppose I’m not shocked they chose not to address the discrepancy in the movie, but I think people have to admit that there is, indeed, a discrepancy.

197. Cinema Geekly - May 8, 2013

RE: BC as Khan

He looks different much like how EVERYONE looks different. Scotty doesn’t look like Jimmy Bones doesn’t look like D-Kelly and so on.

It is a retcon. Hell TOS started getting the retcon treatment as early as the TOS films! They change whatever they feel like to best suit their story. Get over it.

BC is Khan in-so-,uch is that he is a talented actor with a fantastic voice and tremendous gravitas ala Ricardo Montalban.

198. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@188: supply and demand, dude, simple economics. The simple truth being that ticket sales in the US have dwindled to such a low, that distributors are starting to regard the US just as another market. As you may have noticed that’s actually a growing trend but the reason, as stated above, remains simple economics.

199. Theatre Historian - May 8, 2013

Question,
So several of you have mention that Admiral Marcus has the NX01
does this mean that we actually get a glimpse of her onscreen or is she simply referenced in a line of dialouge.

Oh and anyword on who is voicing the computer in Into Darkness?
Thanks very much :)

200. McCoy's#1Fan - May 8, 2013

A few comments on some of the above posts:

So it is Spock that yells “Khaaan” — with Quinto’s weak voice it probably is a real laugh (My problem with Quinto is his physical presence.. too weak to be Spock)

What about the character of David? Since in original timeline Kirk didn’t meet Khan until he was older and David grown,, is there going to be
a David in this timeline and will he live this time?

Must congratulate JJ&Co on picking up on McCoy’s line from Space Seed about there being something in his blood that doesn’t want to die.

But also must say they were wrong to redo THE scene from all of
Trek.. As others have mentioned the Kirk/Spock relationship hasn’t evolved enough in this timeline “You have been and always shall be my friend” indeed… too soon.

201. maspill - May 8, 2013

Great film

Tho in my opinion Benerdict was under used if we saw more of him and his screen presence this would have been the best satr trek film by a mile in my opinion.

202. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@186: I agree to almost every point (especially the positive ones) except for the fact that I didn’t mind the uniforms. They look kinda impractical, that’s true, but well… I guess I just didn’t care too much…

203. Jim, London - May 8, 2013

Just seen it, great film but still falls behind (just) TWOK in my opinion . Only one thing that did annoy me is this obsession with the Enterprise seeming to be always outgunned by a bigger and badder ship! Are we ever going to see a fairly even ship v ship engagement in this new universe (i.e a proper battle where the Enterprise actually gets to use its weapons and slug it out out with the enemy – oh and use the proper red alert Klaxon)?

Well done on the ‘Khaaaaaaannnnnn’ scream btw – could have been an epic fail like the Darth Vader ‘Noooooooooooo’ but i tip my hat that it was pulled off successfully.

I can only hope that the next film based on some of the dialogue in into darkness features the Klingons being the primary adversary.

204. jvanz - May 8, 2013

Do we get a glimpse of the botany bay in the movie?

205. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@203: Yeah, as a matter of fact I started wondering why they even bothered to mention “shields” in that movie.

206. Paul fitz - May 8, 2013

Just back from seeing it here in Cork Ireland. Have mixed feelings about the film…
Cumberbatch was superb, but very under utilised, good performances all round really. But the big scenes, like the crash, just felt ropy to me. Like it was an afterthought.
Can’t help but say I felt a bit bored watching it, and I have been wound up waiting to see this.
Gonna go see it again next week, I’m hoping it’ll grow on me.

207. KHAAAN the weasel - May 8, 2013

@204: Sadly not. And that was another thing that upset me (a bit…) Yet I have a feeling that there may have been a scene (maybe a flashback) featuring the Botany Bay which ended up on the cutting room floor. Just a feeling though,

208. weeharry - May 8, 2013

just back from the 2009/STID double bill in edinburgh

there was lots to like in ‘into darkness’, but i have a nagging feeling of disappointment due to the way the khan ‘revelation’ was handled. it felt a bit tacked on, or shoe-horned in, and didn’t really add to the over all enjoyment – as others have stated, he was plenty bad ass and menacing before the reveal – afterwards, i just couldn’t shake that i wasn’t buying him as khan in the way that i have wholeheartedly bought into most of the main cast as their respective characters.
john harrison could easily have just been john harrison, for example, a product of s31 genetic engineering, originating from the survivors of the botany bay – this would still have linked to original stories and made the ‘magic blood’ thing (slightly) more plausible.
alternatively, i would have loved a flashback scene of harrison sabotaging montalban-khan’s cryo-chamber when woken first instead of him for some reason boborci could have thought up.

i didn’t have a problem with increased action levels – these two movies are both definitely enjoyable big budget sci-fi action, and DO feel like star trek to me, and i loved a lot of the nods to things we’ve seen before, although one or two were a wee bit cringeworthy.

loved that scotty and mccoy both had more screen time, although still could have had more bones.

carol marcus character very underused, unfortunately giving credence to the notion of her merely being eye candy, which is a shame as they could have done a lot more with her.

liked that khan (would still rather call him john harrison to be honest) wasn’t killed off – benedict was awesome in the role he played, irregardless of my issues with the character choices they made for him – he’s definitely up there as a trek villain and it would be good to see him in a subsequent movie (not the next one though please)

menage a trois with the cat women – blink and you’ll miss it – no controversy there

best thing – they’re off to start the five year mission! i’m all for referential nods and visual cues to old episodes – just let’s have an original story next time, please

will go see again sometime over the weekend, to see how it sits with me on second viewing, and i will be interested to watch it with someone less invested in trek than myself – it will probably do quite well because it is essentially an entertaining movie, i did enjoy it, just for me could have been more.

i was more impressed by iron man 3 when i saw that last week, i’m afraid

209. smike - May 8, 2013

@199: It’s a line-up of model ships featuring the Phoenix, the ringship and NX-01…

210. Cinema Geekly - May 8, 2013

Also on the TWOK scene(s) I can understand people not liking it in all honestly but I think context always helps a bit more.

I hope people don’t think they did it just to rip it off or because it was iconic, or because they thought it would be cool.

Going back to the last film the supreme court made it clear that they are very big on this whole destiny thing. Even with the new timeline, and history changing they asked the question: Does that change who you are or are some people just destined to become who they were always meant to be?

In this case….you tangle with Khan and this was always going to happen to them, there was no escaping it and I totally dig that.

211. Oxford - May 8, 2013

We got to see the first sequence on Nibiru 4 times because the 3D kept malfunctioning and the cinema restarted it. When it clearly wasn’t going to work they gave us the option of continuing in 2D and getting a free pass to see something else in 3D later or getting a full refund. Most of us went for the first option.

Anyone else notice it seemed an awfully quick jaunt over to the Klingon Neutral Zone and back? Anything else would have screwed the pacing of the movie I suppose.

212. Josh C. - May 8, 2013

211 – is there a neutral zone yet? (maybe they mentioned it in the movie). My impression is that the neutral zone was created by the Organian as part of their imposed peace on the Klingons and Federation

213. New - May 8, 2013

So…. At the end of the movie…. Do Uhura and Chekov tell Kirk the status of the ship and how they’re ready to go before Kirk even enters the bridge…. I always wondered who they were talking to…. Awkwardddd

214. JohnRambo - May 8, 2013

So guys i’m back home and the only thing i can say is that
Gene Roddenberry would be proud.

The 3D was AMAZING! the best 3D i have seen so far.
The Music and sound were incredible.
The Story was brilliant.
The Actors did a fantatsic Job.(i cried….yes i did)

Cumberbatch as Khan is (in my opinion) WAY better than Ricardo Montalban. Yes it’s true FACE IT!:-)

And a little but very logic Surprise was also there:-D

And i LOVE the ending especially with the original music! AWESOME

Into Darkness may not be as good as Star Trek(09) but it’s definitely one of the best Star Trek Movies ever made.

215. NCC-73515 - May 8, 2013

199 there are models on a table, the A4 (better known as the V2), gemini, shuttle, phoenix, nx warp plane, nx-01, xcv 330, and the vengeance.

216. Oxford - May 9, 2013

@212 The Neutral Zone must have existed before the Organian peace treaty otherwise you can’t have the Kobayashi Maru scenario.

@200 David Marcus is a gleam in Kirk’s eye as he looks at Carol in this movie. This is an alternate reality to the events of Space Seed not the Wrath of Khan.

Spock yelling KHAN! is probably the one thing I could have done without in the whole movie.

217. Virginia - May 9, 2013

abrams and the folks over at bad robot have done something i didn’t think was possible. they created a Star Trek future my family and i (all life long fans) would not want to be a part of. =\

218. Jeff - May 9, 2013

Just back from seeing the film – it was amazing – best part? That it was not spoiled beforehand. Well done to the team. Looking forward to seeing it again next week!

219. Markus - May 9, 2013

Cumberbatch is great, but in effect he seems more like Gary Mitchell – honestly. His menacing look, his artificialness, his superpowers (once getting stunned, in the end not noticing any harm by a phaser, a bit illogical…)

But after seeing it twice on one day… I am filled up. In the second time all “surprises” (which were none really, apart from some emotional scenes) were gone and it was somewhat boring. And the end is somewhat nice considering the five-year-mission, but somehow uninspired. And why did they not consider the Klingons any further? Now suddenly all peace?

That said, I found the movie great, no question. But I would always prefer “good old Star Trek”. Call me a nerd, but I would always prefer to be in the 24th century and not in this 23rd.

220. Markus - May 9, 2013

And what the hell was was wrong with these torpedoes? I would haveunderstood it the Enterprise should fire them on Kronos to wake the 72 to start a war on Kronos. But why did not Admiral Marcus just detonate them? Something like irony? Why did Harisson put them in there in the first place?

221. Trekman_dave - May 9, 2013

One word – legendary

222. Unwanted - May 9, 2013

Haven’t seen the movie just yet, but re: certain dialogue between Kirk and Spock coming too soon in their friendship. We have seen in past Trek that mind melds have long lasting effects, and people are never completely unchanged. Kirk melded with Spock Prime in the last film so isn’t it possible that he is also carrying some of Spock Prime’s emotions about their friendship with him? That could even influence what he says under serious physical distress, as I gather happens.

Just some thoughts, I look forward to watching the movie soon.

223. John Whorfin - May 9, 2013

The first half is good and Cumberbatch is amazing, but by the end the film should be renamed Star Trek: Facepalm.

Unbelievably stupid writing, from the convoluted augment/torpedo conspiracy to the offensively twisted TWOK rehashing, compounded by inexplicable whitewashing of Khan (as others have said, would it have killed them to include a line covering for this, as in cosmetic surgery? and why did he even have to be Khan?)… but the real coup de crap (aside from magical interstellar transporter that only Khan can use with no explanation) is the MAGICAL KHAN BLOOD.

MAGICAL KHAN BLOOD.

Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

Come on, that’s just insulting. And for those of you who are referencing McCoy’s line in Space Seed, THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY A FIGURE OF SPEECH, not a clinical diagnosis of mutant healing power. And even if it were, we’re supposed to buy that Khan’s blood has magical, transferrable inter-species healing properties? (Nevermind if Khan and Kirk have the same blood type, it works on tribbles!) Come on. COME ON.

And even if you could somehow make all that make some sense, why isn’t that the centerpiece of the movie, and what Section 31 wants them for? To replicate (AHEM) their blood so they can build an unstoppable army to fight the Klingons, instead of stupid torpedoes? And don’t get me started on the useless android, ugly dreadnaught, inexplicably British Carol Marcus, useless Spock cameo, etc.

The Supreme Court drank waaay too much tranya.

224. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 9, 2013

Firstly, can I just say:

To all the people on THIS thread who haven’t yet seen the movie – WHY ARE YOU HERE? This is NOT a ‘spoiler-free’ thread.

Anyway, I saw the movie in 2D this morning and enjoyed it. Nothing grated on a first viewing, which is always a good sign for me. Actually that’s not quite true: I think Spock pronounced Nyota as Nigh-Ota this time around, but as Nee-Ota in the 2009 movie, but he only said it once, so it was a blink-and-you-miss-it event (as if ears blink, but you know what I mean…) I’m sure I’ll pick other things up on multiple viewings but, without any really jarring moments the first time around, I usually find myself amused rather than upset by what I find on subsequent viewings.

I don’t think it’s the best Star Trek movie I’ve seen, but it’s definitely up there with them.

Even knowing how misleading trailers can be, I was still amazed how misleading they actually were on certain scenes. Those scenes were shown in a whole different light in the movie.

There is plenty of humour, and yes, grown men (note the plural) do cry. There is a lot of emotion and emotional discovery, especially for Kirk & Spock. There’s also considerable exploration of ethical /moral dilemmas.

I wonder what those who criticised Uhura for being overly-emotional – based on the preview clips – will think about the rest of them, once they’ve seen the movie… And, you know what: she is by no means as ‘whiny’ as the preview clips made out. She is quite formidable in her own right. To paraphrase Spock (because I can’t remember the quote word for word yet) speaking to Kirk on Qo’noS at one point: if you do that, not only will you anger the Klingons, but you will anger Lt. Uhura.

Harrison is actually a very sympathetic character – until he strikes. I loved the chase scene: Harrison and Spock, both running much faster than normal Humans are able to… Also Section 31 and Admiral Marcus certainly come across as the amoral, end-always-justifies-the-means group you would expect.

Despite, the ending being very similar to that of the 2009 movie, I think it fitted better this time around. The start of the 5 year mission with a more seasoned, confident (yet no longer over confident) captain and crew.

I wonder where the post STID comics are going to take us, as the solicits seem to indicate that the Federation and the Klingons are headed into full-scale war. Will we see the Organians this time around?

How long is it till the next movie? If it was scheduled for next year, it would be too long! I want to see more of this crew, and I want to see it now.

I’ll be back to see it on Sunday with the whole family. I have guilt tripped the family into seeing the movie with me as a Mother’s Day (Sunday, 12 May here in Australia) treat… I might sneak in a 3D showing by myself beforehand.

225. Unwanted - May 9, 2013

@224. I had already read the spoiler articles earlier, so I was no longer worried about that, didn’t really read all of the comments, just skimmed through, and caught a couple mentions of the “dialogue too early” note and had a thought on it.

Glad you enjoyed it, that opinion actually means more than a critic to me.

226. Markus - May 9, 2013

Btw, it appears to me that they cutted some part of Harrisson’s dialogue?At least many things from the trailer aren’t there. In the end he is left with not much to say, which is sad considering his dark voice.

227. Markus - May 9, 2013

@13: definitely “non-canon”. Praxis seems to be destroyed 30 years too early. but Kronos was a nice shot.

228. Markus - May 9, 2013

and what I also find extremely distracting is the distance. once they are near kronos (where no other klingon vessels appear to be), then they go to warp for a few seconds, and they crash down on earth?!

229. Markus - May 9, 2013

what I also find strange is the mixture of really horrorfying scenes (like on Kronos, when Uhura gets out) and on the other hand scenes where you get the feeling of a parody. that was more than just irony, it was at times simply absolutely unbelievable how the characters acted. as if to make fun of the characters.

230. T'Sarah - May 9, 2013

I really enjoyed it. It’s a great movie. Sure there are plot holes a mile wide and plebty I can pick on ut I got caught up in the spectacle and enjoyed myself.

The characterisation was a damn sight better than STXI, plenty of humour and it all starts with Kirk choosing to preserve life. Those things are what make up Star Trek for me, including silly elements and plot holes!

I rated Great Movie. I’ll see it again in a few hours and that might change but for now it makes my #3 spot.

231. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

I’d give the movie a B.

232. LeoBerlin - May 9, 2013

One question I have is why is this alien vessel on the Enterprise? As far as I remember Kirk begins the chase with the orders of Admiral Marcus. And there was no landing on Kronos planed…

233. Melllvar - May 9, 2013

T’Sarah

What pulls in first and second?

I’m curious. Would guess The Voyage Home, and perhaps STVI??

Oh and I completely agree with what you said. SUCH a fan of the new film. I spent most of it smiling my face off! And the premier had so many costumes… there were even free posters of the painted planetscape with Enterprise! IMAX ftw!!!

234. AJ - May 9, 2013

I enjoy the “outrage” over Khan being a northern Indian Sikh, but cast with a white English actor.

Guess what? The original Khan was cast with a Mexican actor. JJ’s original choice was Puerto Rican.

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

235. IPIUIL - May 9, 2013

@232 LeoBerlin
They got this ship in the Countdown to Darkness Comic

236. LeoBerlin - May 9, 2013

Ok, thank you! :)

237. GermanTrekker - May 9, 2013

Did anyone notice that Hendorff has more hair in this one?

Once again, I really appreciate this on-screen “canonization” of the graphic-novels.

I wonder if the one that will come out immediately after STID continues to unfold the Klingon war arc. Kirk´s actions will have consequences. Really a nice setup for a third movie, also.

Should the writers choose to use Khan again, I really hope they don´t do it in the next one (it would be a nice farewell adventure for this crew after six or so movies but no earlier).

238. Sebi - May 9, 2013

Saw the movie yesterday in Germany. I enjoyed it very much. BC was great and the scene with Kirks death felt to me more like a hommage than a copy.

While not perfect, it was a great movie.

I hated only 2 things:
3D, because I cannot see it properly (they did not offer 2D)
The German dub is THE WORST I HAVE SEEN/HEARD FOR YEARS!!! That nearly ruined the movie for me. They used almost every voice actor from the previous one but they did a HORRIBLE job! Cannot wait to see it in English.

239. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

The guys on WIkipedia are really dogs in the manger. Even Memory Alpha has not yet revealed the plot of STID yet. But Wikipedia….

240. AJ - May 9, 2013

Is it possible that the rapid-fire super quick K/S friendship was partially due to what Spock Prime referred to as “transference” from the last film’s mind meld?

When Spock mind-melded with Picard in TNG, he got those “dad really loved me” vibes due to the Captain’s previous mental interaction with Sarek.

Haven’t seen it yet, but this scene seems to be a face-palmer for some.

241. AJ - May 9, 2013

Also, the idea of being able to beam from one planet to another actually came from Gene Roddenberry if I recall, as a potential future for ‘Star Trek’ space travel.

242. Disinvited - May 9, 2013

#223. John Whorfin – May 9, 2013

If you accept an historian’s guess as a scientific breakdown of Khan’s DNA sourcing then I’d say you have to give them McCoy’s Wolverine blood.

243. Disinvited - May 9, 2013

#241. AJ – May 9, 2013

See: ASSIGNMENT EARTH

However, it should be noted that apparently Scotty’s solution is much more energy efficient.

244. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

Now some stupid nitpicking ;-)
Both the Enterprise and the Dreadnought are sucked into the Earths atmosphere and nothing happens? Where are the other ships that could help with a tractor beam? Yes i know, there are no ships in range, an old Trek-cliche!
Even if it’s in the headquarter of the Federation.
I guess the Klingons could conquer Earth with ease, lol.

245. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 9, 2013

@244. Exverlobter

They’re back in the Laurentian System again? /* snicker */

Seriously, though – where were Earth’s defences? Or were no warnings triggered because both ships were Starfleet – presumably with Starfleet ‘transponders’?

246. AJ - May 9, 2013

244:

All the other ships are still flying around the Laurentian system…..

243: Bingo.

247. shamelord - May 9, 2013

Okay, Star Trek Into Darkness is first class summer entertainment but it is lacking. It may have a better villain, it may be glossy, characters may be well-treated but you end up feeling empty after credits starts.
146. Tobias Richter summarized my feelings exactly:
In the end, Kirk gives the nice opening speech of the classic series – and THAT is what I want to see – explore strange new worlds, not muddle in all-to-well known territory. I want to feel the sense of wonder in the cinema, not rush from one action sequence to the next, no matter how well they are done. Leave that to that other “Star” franchise. Unfortunately, I seem to be in the minority.

248. NCC-73515 - May 9, 2013

223 MAGICAL KHAN BLOOD.

No. Enhanced platelets. Kirk is not completely dead, his brain still works. That’s why they had to put him into the cryotube, to preserve his brain funtion. Like a comatose patient on life support machines. The platelets healed the body over some time and then Kirk woke up again.

Still, the tribble was supposed to be dead. That’s where you have a point.

249. Captain Spoiler - May 9, 2013

So, Kirk is now infused with Khans blood and becomes… Super-Kirk! With great superpowers so he can fight hordes of Klingons all by himself in the next movie. flying around etc. Now THT would be coooool…

250. Damian - May 9, 2013

It’s funny to read some of the apologists about now how Khan could suddenly be British/European. All of a sudden they take McGivers word “Guess” and that explains it all. Khan viewed her portrait with him in a turban and said he was “honored/” If he wasn’t Sikh he probably would said something about that. Plus she told Khan she knew exactly who he was. You would think that included what nationality he was. I mean confusing a Sikh with a British man is a bit different then say confusing a Frenchman for a British man. I agree with some others who noted a simple line that his appearance was altered by Section 31 would have been sufficient, and well within the realm of possiblity for that organization. You just have to accept they wanted Khan in the movie no matter what, even if they had to change his nationality to do it.

I just can’t help the feeling that the writers (who have all said TWOK was their favorite film) sat down and couldn’t wait to redo Khan and some of the plot points from TWOK. Disappointing for me in the sense that I was looking for something completely different, not another retread in some fashion of TWOK. This is not going where no one has gone before.

251. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

@ Anthony Pascale

As this is probably the film that comes closest to TWOK, do you intent to reprise your previous interview with Nicholas Meyer? That one you did after the 2009-movie? I think it would be interesting to hear, what Nick thinks about let’s call it TWOK 1.5

252. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

My previous comment is gone, strange.

253. Mel - May 9, 2013

@ 200. McCoy’s#1Fan

I saw a dub version of the movie, so I didn’t hear Quinto’s voice. But his face alone was very emotional like old Kirk in Star Trek II.

No David. And as Kirk hasn’t slept so far with Carol Marcus, who knows if he will ever exist. Carol wasn’t so far very impressed by Kirk on a personal level. That could change though.

@ 203. Jim, London

For the flagship of Starfleet the Enterprise gets beaten a lot. :-P
It is really always completely out gunned.

@ 232 LeoBerlin

They got that ship during the Mudd incident. They don’t saw more in the movie, but you can read more about it in the Countdown to Darkness comics.

http://trekmovie.com/2013/02/19/trekink-review-of-countdown-to-darkness-2/

254. Mel - May 9, 2013

I need an edit button. :-P

I meant they didn’t SAY more about it in the movie.

255. Mel - May 9, 2013

244. Exverlobter

That really annoys me, too. Earth and Vulcan were in both movies completely defenseless. I would have expected a few big space stations with a lot of weapons and defensive platforms. And of course a lot of Starfleet ships.

It is not only ships with weapons for the defense of the planet I am missing. The Federation is suppose to be a huge union of countless planets who trade with each other. So where are all the cargo space ships? And I assume that like people travel today from one country to another for various reasons, that people in the future travel from planet to planet. So there must also be civilian transport ships. But we don’t see them.

Overall the space above the important planets we have seen so far (Earth, Vulcan and Kronos) are much too empty. There must be much more going on in the orbit.

256. Hoggzman - May 9, 2013

I loved it, but two tiny questions…

How come old Spock has black hair again, Vulcan 2000???
And WHY would Admiral Marcus keep a model of a top secret star ship on his desk?

However, great film I thought.

257. Joe3894 - May 9, 2013

Awesome movie. I cried, I laughed, the hairs stood on the back of my neck at some parts. Totally got the reverse destiny. Admiral Marcus was brilliant bad ass and Khan was fantastic all over again. The best Trek ever. This is what Hollywood blockbusters are all about! Movie of the year. Well done to everyone involved. I have waited 40 years for a Trek like this. Well worth the wait!

258. KHAAAN the weasel - May 9, 2013

@239: Well, as the domain en.wikipedia.org is actually associated with the WHOLE English-speaking world, it can’t just be assumed that authors should be concerned with what would be spoilers in the US but not elsewhere.

259. Konrad - May 9, 2013

4 years of development and THIS is the best they can come up with?

We have seen hours and hours of TV Trek, which were written in less than a few weeks which had more impact.

Sorry, but when you leave out the superb effects and some spectacular action scenes and actually look at the dialogue and the plot. This movie is just bad.

260. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

@255
” And WHY would Admiral Marcus keep a model of a top secret star ship on his desk?”

Foreshadowing. I think it’s primarily there to be sucked in subconsciously by the audience.

261. Commodore Adams - May 9, 2013

@ 76. Just Saying – May 8, 2013

“But some fans on the internet MAKING UP rubbish about him having a European father/DNA, while dismissing his CANON appearance in Space Seed and TWOK, as well as dialogue stating he is from North India, is laughable.”

Actually the fact that you took the argument to this level is laughable. Have you ever been to india you ignorant prick!? No? While I have, twice. Peoples skin tones in Indian range from dark brown (black) to white, yes there are caucasian East Indians in India. Khan does not have to be brown, he could very easily be caucasian with olive skin (like myself) who tans incredibly well in the summer. I am a white boy and you have no idea how dark I get in the summer because of my Hungarian background. I am still laughing at how ignorant you are. But if you’re from the US, Im not surprised. The fact that Khan is played by a British actor is irrelevant. Benicio turned down the roll, blame him if it matters so much.

Done and done, canon is not violated. Everything is fine, you like most fans get in an uproar over nothing, and nothing they can control.

262. Commodore Adams - May 9, 2013

@ 258. Konrad

Funny, post # 256. Joe3894 seems to disagree with you. ” I have waited 40 years for a Trek like this”

Interesting how there are such varying opinions. I think sometimes people over think these things and those are the people who end up disliking the movie rather than just letting it happen, being open minded and just enjoying it for what it is. The 2009 movie was not what I expected, its not what I wanted for a Star Trek movie, but surprise, I still loved it. Same with Into Darkness.

263. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

@259
I don’t think the movie is bad, and parts of the writing were very, very good. When the script stood on its own it was spectacular, like the short alliance between Khan and Kirk to stop the even more evil Admiral. I think they should have toyed with that a bit more with that.
But then it became unfortunately predictable again with many recycled scenes from TWOK, that were just altered a little bit.. That was a bit disappointing. Again a Trek- film suffered, because it wanted to be too much like TWOK.
Despite it’s goodness that film has indeed had a bad influence on the last 3 films.

264. Al - May 9, 2013

So if I can get to Kronos that quick, how long to get across the universe? A week? A month? Five years?

265. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

@263.

Well if i remember correctly the NX01 Enterprise needed about 1-2 days to reach Kronos, as it was stated in “Broken Bow”.
Consider, that this Enterprise here is 100 years more advanced, so it’s probably way faster.
The Klingons and Romulans were always sort of the neighbors of Earth. THats why they established contact so early.

266. Benny - May 9, 2013

Just seen it. Still not sure how I feel about it. One thing: did Khan’s trailer speech/line ‘I will have my vengeance’ get omitted from the film? I do not recall hearing it.

267. Crumbs - May 9, 2013

Seen the movie. First half decent. 2nd half not so much. I dont have issues with using Khan. I have issues with ripping of dialogue and lifting scenes from WOK. Not impressed. I feel its just them spitting on what has come before. They should have learned from Nemisis that trying to do a remake of WOK doesnt work.

I think basically if you just want some popcorn fun/eye candy, you will like the movie. If you want something more, you wont find it here.

Really disappointed. I give the movie a 4 out of 10. I actually think I like Nemisis more than this movie.

268. Markus - May 9, 2013

@konrad: Completley agree. Yet we should view this as a movie. The reason why it is so similar in parts to Nemesis is that they try to attach the blockbuster-formula to each movie.
___

Does anybody know if the notes for this “london calling” are available anywhere. would love to play it on thepiano, but do not get the left hand by listening

269. danielcw - May 9, 2013

@264:
i believe it were 4 days in broken bow, on almost warp 5.

270. LJ - May 9, 2013

Why couldn’t Khan be British? Let’s look at the arguments:

1. Britain has a large Indian population;
2. Britain has the largest population of Sikhs outside India;
3. McGivers did not really know that much about Khan (nor did anybody else in the 23rd Century – the Eugenics Wars were a ‘Dark Age’);
4. There are many pale-skinned Indians – I’d cite Ben Kingsley for one;
5. If Khan Noonien Singh’s biological parents (whether he was gestated in a test tube or a product of selective parentage) had resided in Britain for x generations, they may have married anglo-saxons – over the generations, their skin tone could have paled. Again, not unusual. CumberKhan still retains the stereotypical Indian black hair;
6. Khan’s empire ruled over 25% of the Earth’s surface, curiously the same as the British Empire. Could he have rebuilt this? The film indicates a Britain that became free of the European Union (Union Flag – no EU flag). Britain also retained a royal family (Royal Children’s Hospital) – Khan was once a prince?

In short it could be argued there is as much evidence to show Khan is British as there is to show he was an Indian national, given that this is solely based on one line of very speculative dialogue and a portrait that Montalban-Khan politely said was a compliment, not wanting to insult the artist.

271. LOFC_Ed - May 9, 2013

A great movie, but too influenced by ST 2 to be the best. ‘You’ll flood the whole compartment’ line from Scotty and the ‘KHHAAAAAAN’ line from Spock, not to mention the hand on the glass….it was pretty much the same scene, but character roles were reversed. I was even convinced Kirk was gonna say ‘oh my’ as he died. I was a bit embarassed about that scene TBH. Not even close on the original IMO.

272. LJ - May 9, 2013

IMHO STID looks great, it is a fantastic roller coaster ride, however it suffers from what seems to be the curse du jour that is style over substance. It is very similar to recent episodes of Doctor Who that are full of action, breathtaking in terms of effects and make up, yet when you come down after watching it, you feel something is missing. That something, I would argue is depth of plot and character. What exactly happened, what was REALLY at stake, where was the tension?

I do buy the need to update, innovate, adapt for new audience tastes – and I welcome it – however there is still a market for intelligent, thought-provoking sci-fi. I’d cite another British show, Life on Mars and it’s sequel Ashes to Ashes as examples of that, and these were massively popular.

For me, the biggest indicator that a story has worked is that the characters and the setting (the status quo) have moved or changed since the equilibrium at the start of the tale. I’m not sure how much this has happened into STID, thus don’t really feel that my investment as part of the audience paid off.

That, allied to the fact that the second half of the film was far too obviously derivative and predictable lead me to the conclusion that the whole thing was a massive missed opportunity – and this is not the first such occurrence in either Trekverse (see TNG ‘Conspiracy’, the re-introduction of the Romulans, the Borg; VOY – the whole series).

Perhaps the writers should follow the example of A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones, which is a literary/TV series that really takes its audience on a journey, puts it through the wringer and makes it feel like it has BEEN somewhere.

Maybe this is an opinion I hold alone – and I did enjoy the movie as I watched it – however the feeling I was left with afterwards was rather empty.

273. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

Yeah, in some ways i felt like last year after having seen the Total Recall-remake.

274. shamelord - May 9, 2013

271. No you are not alone.

275. filmboy34 - May 9, 2013

@262. Agreed. I am not a fan of how Abrams refuses to acknowledge the time it takes to travel to these planets at warp. I mean I get it from a general audience standpoint, waiting for a ship to arrive slows the film down and dimmishes any narrative propulsion. Abrams probably feels that he wants his Star Trek films to move and the best way to do that is to litteraly have the Enterprise zip from one location to another.

But here is the thing, as far as I am concerned. The time when the ship is at warp are a gold mine for character development scenes for the crew of the big E.

I mean even Star Wars had down time when the Falcon was taking Luke and Obi Wan to Alderaan. Why not have some down time between Earth and the Klingon homeworld?

One other thing I want to respond to quick is the lack of activity on Earth and Vulcan. I think that too is a missed opportunity. Think of how much more compelling the fight between Enterprise and Dreadnaught would be if there were civilian transport ships in the midst of it. How much more interesting would it be if Starfleet goes into high alert status at the appearance of two of their ships fighting in orbit? Defensive systems activated, ships recalled back.

I don’t know I just think that there is more that could be done here in this universe cinematically than is being done.

276. Reiko2088 - May 9, 2013

@263
If one could reach Kronos (~100ly from Earth according to “ST Star Charts”) in 10 Minutes, one could get across our galaxy (~100,000ly) in about a week (that’s warp factor 175 in terms of the classic warp scale).

277. BatlethInTheGroin - May 9, 2013

#183: Who the heck is Hans Solo?

278. Just Saying - May 9, 2013

@151

For the record, I don’t think it’s right that a Mexican actor was cast to play an Indian character. But, going soley on his appearance in Space Seed, at least an effort was made to ”Indian-ise” him to some extent, given his skin color in that ep. He certainly comes off as Indian. It’s far better than the casting of a white actor to play an Indian character, but I agree, an Indian actor would be preferable in any case.

279. Paul - May 9, 2013

Oh dear what have they done saw it earlier London sorry to say its not as good as the 09 movie which was awesome.

STID is pretty average as it feels rushed in many places & lacks the elements the 09 movie had which elevated it into a superb movie.

STID I can take an educated guess Paramount waited on Bad Robot out of loyalty but they should have jumped straight into the sequel in 2009. 4 years to create STID is shocking considering how average it is. I am not even going to mention any spoilers or elements which go against what is known about Start Trek as the problem on STID IMO were the execution the direction felt tired in places the story would have worked better with a different director if they had more time behind the scenes to prep the movie. Some of the dialog was obviously created in a hurry on the set it sounded like the 18th century in places!!!

Paramount please hire a new director & producers for the next movie to start again with a fresh outlook but keep the writers the problem here is the Bad Robot always empty mystery box of not delivering anything.

7.5/10 from me (ST09 I would give 10/10).

280. Frank Fischer - May 9, 2013

Congratulations to Bob Orci and his team for this fantastic movie! My wife an I saw it yesterday (in Germany) and we both loved it. I hated the idea of probably bringing Khan back but it was so well executed and fresh that we both loved it! We also loved the idea of Section 31 in the movie!
And thank you for letting Kirk life… ;-)

And now: PLEASE: we want a new Star Trek TV SERIES. :-)
And PLEASE don’t let us wait for the nex movie for so long as the last one! :-)

281. Just Saying - May 9, 2013

@170

What on earth are you talking about? Where in any of my posts did I state that Khan being identified as a Sikh automatically makes him Indian?

His being REFERENCED IN THE SCRIPT of Space Seed as being from ”North India” makes him Indian. If you re-read my posts (properly this time), you will see this.

BTW although it is a trait of Sikhism not to cut your hair or shave, many actually do. Therefore the absence of a turban or beard does not take away from his possible ”Sikhness”. Also a portrait of Khan in a Turban, in the episode is an obvious hint. The intention of the episode makers is pretty clear to those with their eyes open.

And you call me narrow minded. Hilarious.

282. Frank Fischer - May 9, 2013

P.S.: We loved it so much that we will see it again tonight, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow and on Sunday! :-) And yes, we already have booked the tickets! :-)

283. Trek Tech - May 9, 2013

@ 124.
Thank you for saving me a lot of writing. These writers cant seem to craft a story that isnt full of contrivances and plot holes but its proof that todays audiences require little more than CGI and shaky cam. Transformers Trek. I guess if you want to relegate Trek to mindless entertainment then this is the Trek of the new generation. Not thoughtful. Not poignant. Just pretty. A hollow script rehashed from a classic and bolstered by a good cast. Ignore the man behind the curtain…todays fans seem more entranced by the sizzle than the steak. This is JOCK TREK…all adrenaline and testosterone and cheerleaders with little thought given to it. Classic Trek did its homework and term papers for it while JJ Trek collects the accolades and cheers from the bleachers. Bread and Circuses.

284. LOFC_Ed - May 9, 2013

@277

Let’s face it though, Montleban done a BRILLIANT job as Khan and really did make the character believable and sinister. Not just once, but TWICE.

285. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

@278 Paul

As its heart STID is a very good picture.
But there is one problem: Fan expectations are enourmous because Abrams justified the huge 4 year gap to be able to produce the best film possible. My answer: “What, you needed 4 years for that?” Seriously, tHey could have delivered the same film 2 years earlier without any changes.

Furthermore Abrams is constantly shooting himself in the foot with his stupid marketing-campaigns, insane secrecy policy and mystery boxes, that furthermore amplifies the fan-expectations.

I guess many fans will be gonna a little bit disappointed, because it’s basically not that a different film than the last one. And that one benefitted of low expectations as Star Trek was already a dead-franchise at that moment.

286. Buzz Cagney - May 9, 2013

Ok, just back from seeing it.
People told me I needed to give it a chance and, despite my reservations, i went along.
I’ve loved these characters since I was about 8 years old, some 40 years ago and the really sad thing that I found with Darkness- I just didn’t care.
i didn’t care a jot. Its not that i’ve stopped caring about them its just that I didn’t care about them in this movie.
I found it to be a beginning- a long and messy middle- and a weak ending.
i found myself involuntarily laughing when I wasn’t supposed to be and stony faced when I think I was supposed to be laughing.
Nothing, but nothing, got a worthwhile emotion out of me. And I know for sure that was what they were hoping for. Fail.
But mostly, the contrived story was its failing. Just the biggest hotch-potch. Taking what had come before and trying to turn it on its head in the hope that it would be seen as smart and innovative. Fail.
And how did they manage to totally fail to build any suspense? Seriously, how did they do that? Quick, never mind the suspense, lets move it along at a pace. Have another fight. Insert another quip. Nothing, but nothing, built toward a suspenseful scene. Fail.

Was there anything that I did like? Not much I’m afraid.
I’m really sorry if any of the team are reading this but you had the chance to do something original and fresh and new but didn’t. Fail.

New blood needed for ’16 I feel.

287. LOFC_Ed - May 9, 2013

@284

Disagree with fans being disappointed. Thought it was great, although I was embarrassed about how they kept the radiation leak scene and reversed the character roles. That aside, great.

288. Just Saying - May 9, 2013

@234

In that case, I hope Trek fans don’t mind a rebooted TNG being lead by a Jean-Luc Picard re-cast with an Indian/ethnic actor.

IDIC, as you said ;)

289. Paul - May 9, 2013

@ 284 Damon Lindelof admitted they only started serious work in Dec 2011 nowhere near long enough to polish. I hope Paramount get someone to replace Bad Robot why wait 4 years to create an average movie just get someone else new/fresh onboard. Nicholas Meyer could do it if they let him have story control he can work with Bob + Alex to craft a better story & direct with more flair. I am being really diplomatic here some ST fans will errupt like the volcano !!!

290. AnonymousWasAWoman - May 9, 2013

@144. Anthony Pascale – May 8, 2013
“I liked the Praxis thing because I saw it as showing this universe is different and the fanon answer is simple: In the post Kelvin era, the Federation and the Klingons both ramped up R&D and production. This caused need for more Power usage for the Empire than in prime timeline, leading to earlier meltdown of Praxis.”

Fascinating implications, if that moon was Praxis. The Klingon Empire already lost 47 warbirds to the Narada’s attack; devastating. It would take years to rebuild, and that’s assuming the Empire had the resources to rebuild. (They were always resource-poor; in Day of the Dove, Mara defended Klingon expansionism as crucial to their survival.) So did they destroy Praxis decades earlier in this timeline, pushing their scant resources too hard in an overhasty effort to rebuild their fleet? And what will that do to stepping up the timeline on a Klingon/Federation alliance? Hard to imagine the Romulans wouldn’t take advantage of any weakness they scented amongst the Klingons, and the Klingons might just choose alliance with the Federation as the best of bad options for survival.

(At any rate, I’m with you; I don’t consider Praxis-in-Pieces to be a kick in the pants. I think it’s potentially very interesting.)

291. LOFC_Ed - May 9, 2013

@286

Got to be Tom Hardy as an alternate Picard ain’t it?

292. Nemesis4909 - May 9, 2013

I was very disappointed. The film was doing some great stuff until around the last half hour. The climax just felt completely rushed. Why did Khan decide to ram the Vengeance into Starfleet HQ? Makes no sense, he wasn’t really going anywhere and nobody seemed in a rush to assign other ships.

When Khan was revealed I was prepared to accept it when it seemed like he wasn’t their enemy, that was interesting stuff. As soon as he became the villain again that’s when the thing fell apart for me.

The climax was almost verbatim Wrath of Khan, except with the roles reversed. It was actually pretty insulting to fans. Casuals won’t know any better but you’re not telling me they couldn’t have come up with something better.

Kinda came out thinking “I waited four years for this?” Not good enough, not good enough by a long shot.

I’ve been thinking of boycotting anything this production team are involved with ever again because of their profound laziness. That would discount Amazing Spider-Man 2 though so it requires more thought

293. Buzz Cagney - May 9, 2013

I did post my thoughts earlier but the post appears to have disappeared.
I’m going to cut it short this time- I thought the movie was very poor. The saddest thing about it was that I just didn’t care about the characters. And thats pretty unforgivable to me.
New blood next time please Paramount. This team are lazy and have nothing original to offer.

294. Josh C. - May 9, 2013

@216 Oxford – one could probably still have the kobayashi maru without the neutral zone. You just have the ship disabled in klingon space instead. Did they explicitly say something about the neutral zone during the scenario in the 2009 movie? I can’t remember

@249 Captain Spoiler – I suggested it could make him assimilation proof if they decide to use the Borg in the next movie, heh

295. Josh C. - May 9, 2013

@216 Oxford – OK, found a clip on youtube. McCoy does say they entered the neutral zone, so either

a) the neutral zone already existed
b) the events in Errand of Mercy happened way earlier in the timeline, or
c) they goofed

296. KHAAAN the weasel - May 9, 2013

@287: ” I hope Paramount get someone to replace Bad Robot” – Won’t happen. I’m pretty sure this movie will do pretty well at the box office, and that’s all that counts for Paramount.

What I would like to see would actually be another director at the helm of the next installment (and as we know, that’s quite probable actually). While JJ Abrams sure knows how to make a flashy action flick, I think it would be time to strive after more complex themes again. Maybe THIS movie actually did a good job in paving the way for a third installment that concerns itself more with moral themes and maybe – and that’s what I ACTUALLY hope for – the question of how humans deal with the unknwon, cause that had actually been the question underlying some of Trek’s greatest TV moments.

297. KHAAAN the weasel - May 9, 2013

@287: Oh, disregard my last reply. I just realized that Bad Robot is in fact JJ’s Company… so, well, I guess: No JJ, no Bad Robot…

298. M-5 Computer - May 9, 2013

Great film! I didn’t mind the reverse TWOK thing so much. Some of the criticisms above were spot-on, but I still enjoyed it immensely. I have a few of theories based on the plot of STID that could be fleshed out in future movies:

1) By stopping the war-at-all-costs attitude of Admiral Marcus, Kirk, Spock & Co. just barely prevent this timeline from becoming the “Mirror Mirror” Terran Empire timeline.

2) The “cheat” or “shortcut” that David Marcus uses to complete the Genesis Wave (in TSFS) was actually the old, preserved DNA of Khan or one of his crew. It works for a bit, but it’s unstable. So, in a future movie in this timeline there could be a story revealing that detail. Kirk may be in trouble if this stuff breaks down after awhile.

3) Perhaps Carol was, at her father’s request, is already working on a “weaponized” version of Genesis? Will we see that next movie?

299. Geek Girl - May 9, 2013

Saw it this morning boy oh boy when this movie was good it was freaking awesome, then there are the times where you want to gnaw your arms off.

BC was sublime (although when is ever not?) as Khan. I kind of get the feeling that he was genuine in helping Kirk take down Admiral Marcus, that is until Scotty pops him. Being betrayed for the second time by a Starfleet member would have made him rather cranky I’d imagine. His confrontation with Marcus was unnerving yet I couldn’t help but pity the guy (Khan that is, Marcus got what he deserved).

Still not sold on the idea that Harrison was actually Khan, I think he may be one of his followers. In the scene with Bones and Marcus checking out the torpedo, the person within seemed to bear a close resemblance to Khan. Perhaps he claimed to be Khan in order to protect his leader, or he was going to kill the real one in order to take over, Khan is a title after all. With that said my guesses about the character over the years has gone from Joachim to Mitchell to Garth so it may not be wise to take my word for it ;).

Pike’s death was a real punch to the guts, funny how you can get attached to someone who was barely in the movies. I’m sure he’s going to be missed in the next film.

The Spock/Uhura thing dragged the movie down in the first half – is it really necessary to have them snogging and/or fighting every scene. Not to mention it was time taking away screen time that could been used on Sulu and Bones. Also is it me or is Uhura becoming bitchier and more clingy? Shame because the original had class, grace and a beautiful personality. Trust me you don’t need a Spock and Uhura romance to make the ladies happy. One of the things that we love about Spock in TOS was that he was unobtainable – we want what they can’t have and his lack of romantic inclination just made him more attractive.

Loved that Chekov had a bit more time to shine – he was always a favourite of mine in TOS, I do miss that Beatles wig though. Wish there had been more of Sulu in the command chair

Kirk’s death scene was really unnecessary. With a new movie coming out in a few years we know Kirk isn’t going to die and Spock’s reaction was almost embarrassing to watch. I’ll admit I had a good laugh at that bit. I reckon the scene would have had more impact if they had just left Kirk critically injured and near death – Spock’s memory of Pike in that condition would still have led him try and get revenge and if Bones had found out about Khan’s blood earlier would have made the situation all the more desperate for Spock.

The Enterprise and Dreadnaught were spectacular and seeing the poor girls blasted to pieces like that tugged at the ol’ heartstrings. Then there’s the Enterprise rising above the clouds (again, but seriously who cares, she deserved her moment of glory).

300. Paul - May 9, 2013

@ 292+3
Yep its unlikely Bad Robot get removed by Paramount unless the international box office is poor (its unlikely to do great numbers if ST09 was a far superior movie & only made $139m outside US).

Time for Nick Meyer to save the franchise again IMO!!!!

301. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

Nick Meyer seriously?
That would be no fresh blood, Furthermore he hasn’t made a motion picture since 20 years.

302. Paul - May 9, 2013

@ 296
Yes seriously he understands how to make human interest stories with genuine emotion something this movie is sadly lacking. He was offered & passed on 2 of the TNG movies as the characters did not interest him time for Paramount to get him on speedial IMO. If he can write TWOK in 12 days & not even bother getting screen credit I think he can work miracles on ST13!!

303. Homer J. Simpson - May 9, 2013

hey i heard chris hemsworth’s name was in the credits for Star Trek Into Darkness. Did he really make a cameo as george kirk?

304. KHAAAN the weasel - May 9, 2013

@295: Yeah, if they decided to bring back Nick Meyer, that would actually be a fanboy dream come true. I doubt that’s gonna happen though. As far as I know, Nicholas Meyer has been more interestend in writing than directing during the last twenty years.

305. Paul - May 9, 2013

@ 298
If he did I missed it.

@ 299
Yep Meyer has passed on Trek in the past not sure he would be interested nowadays but that leaves a big problem no obvious director it needs someone who is strong enough to make the movie & handle studio interference. Meyer is the only guy who fits the bill with a Trek history. Think the next movie will have a no name director who will be a studio yes person somehow so do not expect much from it at this stage. After STID would not be surprised if Lucasfilm/Disney have second thoughts on who they want to direct SW EP7 either…….

306. Killamarshtrek - May 9, 2013

As rehashing lines & scenes from previous movies seems to be in vogue these days I shall simply say this: “My god Bob Orci, what have you done?”. It started brilliantly but eventually degenerated into TWOK2! We know you’re in awe of TWOK (as are we all) but come on. I’m all in favour of homage, but where does homage stop and complete rip off start?

I know JJ is always saying the film is not just for Star Trek fans but for movie fans in general and I agree but you have to have the fans on board first & foremost! What chance is there of a non Trek fan going to see it if a Trek fan wouldn’t even recommend it?!

Oh & by the way, would it have really hurt to put a line in about how they changed Khan’s appearance to hide his identity? It’s a good job Spock didn’t show Spock prime a picture of this ‘Khan’ cause he would have just said don’t worry, that’s not Khan Noonian Singh, he’s Indian!

I loved the first film but this is the most disappointed I’ve ever been coming out of a Star Trek movie!

307. HairyTrekker - May 9, 2013

A few comments after the first viewing

The 3d is well done, but a bit ostentatious
Engineering looks more like a brewery than ever before
There are many, many plot holes, but the action comes thick and fast and masked it until I walked out of the cinema
I appreciated the links to 60s Trek, but not sure how filmgoers new to Trek would respond
Some of the audience laughed like drains at almost every line
I never liked the evil Starfleet story lines or conspiracy theory episodes. They’re not part Roddenberry’s bright future
I found myself laughing at “The Ship?” “Out of danger” and Spock shouting “Kahn!”
I’m not sure about the “Ship out of danger” turn around, I’ll have to watch it again.

And I will watch it again. Not the greatest Trek film, but certainly not the worst.

308. KHAAAN the weasel - May 9, 2013

@301: Would be funny, if STID actually just set up an arc for the next installment in which we learn that John Harrison was just pretending to be Khan, but was actually a different augment who managed to free the real Khan and just put some Section 31 guy in his Cryo chamber… You know, with a scene akin to the one you just described: Like the crew showing Spock prime some footage of “Khan” and Spock replying: “That’s not Khan…”
The real Khan would of course have to be portrayed by someone who at least looks a tiny bit more like Montalbán…
On the other hand that would be somewhat detractive towards Cumberbatch’s performance. He was a damn cool villain. But he would’ve been a cool villain even without the whole Khan-thing…

309. Disinvited - May 9, 2013

#250. Damian – May 9, 2013

From the episode:

“MARLA: Not personally, Captain. Professionally. My profession is historian, and when I find a specimen from the past alive, I’m in the sheer delight of examining his mind.
KIRK: And men were more adventuresome then. Bolder, more colourful.
MARLA: Yes, sir, I think they were.
KIRK: Good. If I can have honesty, it’s easier to overlook mistakes. That’s all. ”

She says she is professionally, as an historian, focused on the mind of past men – not their appearance. When she knows Khan it is his mind to which she is referring.

Also please note in the dialogue both Kirk and Marla establish she makes mistakes.

#280. Just Saying – May 9, 2013

The script simply does not make a strong statement to the effect that Khan is Northern Indian. The same script establishes that the character that says those words makes mistakes and is guessing.

310. Adam - May 9, 2013

I enjoyed it right up until the moment Khan revealed himself. The movie then took a big dive and never recovered in my opinion.

There are so many stories that could be told, why must we be served up a copy and paste of big, big chunks of TWOK? Casual non-fans won’t care who Khan is and I can only imagine most Trek fans will be irritated at the forced comparison between TWOK and the new film. And because we know Spock survived, Kirk will survive. The Khan blood thing was signposted from a mile off so there was zero drama or tension in Kirk’s ‘sacrifice’ and the ‘Khaaaaaaannnn’ shout from Spock was cringeworthy.

It was a very good film but c’mon, surely there has to be room for some sort of originality? I can’t help but feel disappointed by what I saw. A new writer/director team for the next film, please and don’t plunder what’s been done before. A Trek film should go where noone’s go before…

Also did anyone else notice the reference to ‘The Cage’ ? When Kirk is in the bed at the end one of the displays on the wall has the name ‘Dr Boyce’ on it. Thougth that was neat.

311. Jason Buffalo - May 9, 2013

For a None Trekkie this movie would be OK, but for a Trekkie like me i was disappointed, it feel like if they just wanted to make the Fan happy in this movie and get us into the Theater, but i was really hoping for something new something different, but in the end i just got something i have seen for a thousand times, and also i am disappointed that there is no major space battle, just the Enterprise getting a beating, maybe i have to see the movie for a second time.

312. Classy M - May 9, 2013

I saw the film this afternoon and enjoyed it. It wasn’t perfect, by any means, but it succeeded more than it failed.

What worked for me:
The performances were very good to excellent, even those I disliked in the last film really upped their game in this one.

Some excellent character moments in particular from Sulu, McCoy and Scotty.

An outstanding villain. Mostly. Mr Cumberbatch delivered in spades. It’s just a shame he wasn’t given more to work with.

Some lovely nods to the original series and great humour, especially from Karl Urban.

The USS Bradbury.

What didn’t work:
It’s too soon to rehash Wrath of Khan. By the time that film was made Kirk and Spock had had years to develop their friendship. Nu-Kirk and Spock are still learning to like / trust each other, never mind forge that historic friendship.

Tried too hard to be all things to all men. It would have been a better script if it had simply been true to itself.

Not enough ensemble moments; individual chances to shine were great, but I’d have preferred more functioning as a team.

Treatment of women in this film was nothing less than appalling. It seems in the 23rd century females serve little purpose other than strut about half-naked; scream; cry; and worry about their menfolk. Sure, we got to see Uhura talking Klingon and Marcus disposing of bombs, but they felt like afterthoughts rather than intrinsic behaviour. This was the biggest failing for me.

The villain was well-acted and I don’t have an issue with Cumberbatch playing Khan (other than my previously-mentioned point that it’s too soon for this rehash) but he was woefully under-written and under-utilised.

Was it really necessary for both Kirk and Spock to act like thugs?

The Galaxy Quest moment. Remember in GQ when Allen and Weaver had to cancel the self-destruct and getting to the button was unnecessarily stupid? Yeah, there were echoes of that.

The ending was dopey. They’re on the verge of war with the Klingon Empire; half the brass in Starfleet have been killed; and the flagship is sent off ‘out there’ on a five-year mission? (Oh, and that mission statement didn’t fit and felt badly shoehorned in.)

I know – given that negative list it sounds like I hated it, and that’s honestly not the case. My enjoyment of the good stuff was sufficient to cancel out most of the negatives – with the exception of the treatment of the female characters. (Maybe the next film can feature a USS Sally Ride?)

313. Unbel1ever - May 9, 2013

Just posted my review in the review section:
http://trekmovie.com/into-darkness-fan-reviews/#5090063

314. NCC-73515 - May 9, 2013

The Klingon Bird of Prey is a D-4
The building in London is the Kelvin Memorial Archive
Life support on the Enterprise is located at the aft nacelle (WFT?!)
And what were those white robots in sickbay?

315. Konrad - May 9, 2013

It is not the director’s fault. JJ is a good director, he knows how to handle a big cast, Cumberbach is great (but underused), the rest, except for Pegg… sorry dude, you ruin it for me, you are NOT funny… are great.

No it is the script, the authors. I mean come on… 4 years and they come up with a plot that anyone here on this site would come up within 10 minutes after having seen Trek 09? Come on… I mean COME ON…. what are they paid for.

They rebooted this whole thing to get artistic freedom… and all they can do is to copy TWOK. Nemesis bombed because of that. ID will fare better, but only because it gets blockbuster treatment (promotion can do a LOT today).

Keep JJ (I am looking forward to his EPISODE VII… hell yeah…) and please fire the authors and get come competent ones to write the next one.

316. Tommbe - May 9, 2013

I enjoyed STID, though im not a fan of trans warp transporter beams or 30 second round trips to Qo’nos!

@299 i had the same feeling about Khan until Scotty phasered him.

Im glad Khan was not killed off (I think the Supreme Court learnt from george lucas ie dont kill off your Darth Maul)

Did i see lt hendorff ( cupcake) get killed by bat’leth on qo’nos? I hope not.

317. Just Saying - May 9, 2013

@309. Oh just shut up.

You are grasping at straws and I only like to debate with intelligent people. Not individuals using the most ridiculous arguments to debate with.

318. Disinvited - May 9, 2013

“What about the common ancestor of all humans? Another model developed in 2004 by Chang and his two co-authors estimated that the most recent common ancestor of mankind may have lived as recently as about 3,000 years ago. If it is true, we all might be descendants of Confucius, who died in 479 BC, or even Queen Nefertiti, who died in 1330 BC.” – Mai Ngọc Châu, Contributor / May 8, 2013, CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR

http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2013/0508/How-closely-related-are-we-to-each-other

319. Disinvited - May 9, 2013

#317. Just Saying – May 9, 2013

“No one puts lines in a script for no reason.” – Just Saying

320. braxus - May 9, 2013

Can anyone comment on the IMAX scenes, as in how they look compared to the regularly 35mm shot scenes? Are there any space vehicle shots (special effects shots) using IMAX?

321. Craig Scotland - May 9, 2013

Seen it today, enjoyed it nice seeing Nimoy on screen again even if just for a short period. The Kahn Scream felt forced in fact the whole point of having khan in the movie just felt unnecessary should have just stuck with John Harrison but i still enjoyed the film and Cumberbatch was great in the role i do hope they bring him back at some point!
And looks like Anthony called it right back in the day after all!

322. Adam - May 9, 2013

Just back from seeing it and thoroughly enjoyed it. The writers did a good job of developing a new take on Space Seed and Wrath of Khan within 2 hours whilst giving the whole ensemble cast their own individual moments.

On first viewing, it feels better and dare I say more ‘trekky’ than ST09

323. RobG - May 9, 2013

As a regular reader of the site, thought I would my…er…thoughts!!

I saw the movie twice today and going again tomorrow.

I really enjoyed the film. Saw it first in 3D. Though not awful, the 3D element just made it hard to take it all in. Watched again in 2D and enjoyed the film even more. I am a fan of 3D but didn’t really add much to this film – clearly just a demand from Paramount.

For months there has been debate that Khan was going to feature which was strenuously denied. So when it came to watching the film, even though I was half expecting Khan/half NOT expecting Khan when the reveal came I thought it was executed well and the later TWOK homages worked in the overall story BUT now the crew has started their five year mission, I would like to see a bigger, non-person antagonist in the next film – bored to the crew facing an individual each time – be cool to get something mysterious and new.

Overall JJ and co have done a fantastic job – even if JJ doesn’t return, it would be cool to see a different take on things – just dont make us wait four years again!!!

Definitely not disappointed with Into Darkness, would just like to see a completely new adventure next time – lets be done with the hints at the past now – I am sure there are plenty of original stories that can be told for these characters

Boldly go see it peeps!

324. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 9, 2013

I was surprised to hear the “Khan” scream but I did not think that it was forced. In fact, the character had as much, if not more, reason to scream as Kirk did in the TWOK movie.

325. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

Add another crazy traitor-admiral to the list.

Cartwright, Satie, Pressman, Leyton, Dougherty and now Marcus.

The not known truth is, that Starfleet is probably an evil, dystopian empire in disguise , lol.

Its a wonder that this bitch Nechayev was supposed to be normal. C’mon she probably has also a bit of the Dark side in her.

326. Miko - May 9, 2013

Just got home from Into Darkness!!!
Blew me away from start to finish! Good job Abrams and crew.
I’m a 100% fan and this was totally awesome! Loving the story, the characters, the visuals, the score and all the lovely easter eggs and homages!!
I found this film a stunning cinema experience in IMAX and will be seeing it again soon. Got to say Cumberbatch was awesome. He brought a whole new meaning to the word villain. Good choice with the baddie too, I for one am pleased with who he turns out to be.

327. Disinvited - May 9, 2013

Forget magical:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23511-young-blood-reverses-heart-decline-in-old-mice.html

328. i just don't know yet - May 9, 2013

I went to see it at 00.05 on the 9th.
I don’t know what to make of it yet.
Maybe it was the distracting 3D….but ugh….four years of waiting and we get this now….I just don’t know what to think.
I’ll have to see it again.

I slightly feel like they’ve shit all over the brilliance of The Wrath of Khan with this. I felt sorry for the non-trekkie audience knowing that that scene where spock is dying in TWOK is THEE most heartbreaking scene in star trek’s entire history. And in this version that the audience are seeing, it is just shit. If they ever do watch TWOK now their view of that scene is going to be completely ruined. “Oh Hey! It’s exaclt like Into Darkness! Wow! But look, Kirk is the one dying and the room is so much smaller” and all that…
Why was Spock so emotional when Kirk died anyways? Has has known the man barely a year at that stage. I just didn’t buy it.

Watching it it finally dawned on my, “so..This is the Star Trek of 2013?”
It made me feel sad and just absolutely miss the old star trek.

Alice Eve’s British accent whilst having an American Father was also very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very stupid and distracting.

329. Exverlobter - May 9, 2013

@ 328.

Not so far-feched. I also have a different accent than my parents.

330. Nick - May 9, 2013

I guess artistic merit is firmly in the eyes of the beholder judging by the remarks here. No surprises there & good on you all for sharing your thoughts.

I went yesterday to the 3D version & enjoyed it immensely.

As a long-time Star Trek enthusiast naturally I am weighed down by the past, but I’ve deliberately let go of that so I can enjoy these new movies more. The alternate universe thing helps a lot in that regard.

Anyway, I thought it was a great film & I am sure this will go really well with most fans & definitely the wider movie-going audience.

I liked the way the story has been developed from the 2009 movie, Kirk has earned his captaincy and the crew now feels settled for the grand adventure.

In many regards the Kirk/Spock relationship has been advanced significantly way beyond where it was in TOS. I think that is good, because we can now hopefully focus more on the adventure as the characters are now well established & firmly locked in their roles.

I personally thought the Khan aspect was well done & freshly done at that. Having seen the film I couldn’t have imagined anyone more suited to the role. I have no ethnicity issues here, just like I don’t mind the voyage to Kronos not taking so long. The story needs to move along.

I thought Simon Pegg’s Scotty added a lot to the film. Really, the ensemble worked very well – I hope we keep these people together, as to me a great part of TOS was the continuity of the cast – it meant more because both artistically and in real-time these people had done the miles together.

For me this was an action movie with real heart. When there was a significant character death it wasn’t cliché, there was emotion & ‘tears’ from grown men. Not very John Wayne, but real & meaningful – I liked this.

Sure there may have been some odd things & the Kirk death scene was a little strange. I’d be interested in people’s opinions who haven’t seen ST2, as being familiar with this does take away from that moment somewhat.

Anyway, personally I’d be fine to wait another 4 years for quality like this. This felt a whole lot more Star Trek than 09 for me & now they have their 5 year mission – great!

Full credit to the producers, good work. I’d have to say though that you only become great when you create something fresh & new. Can that be done with the story for the next movie?

331. Nick - May 9, 2013

Oh, & credit to Anthony on the Khan call very early in the piece.

And of course MJ. You stuck to your guns on Khan throughout the very long build up. Enjoyed following those discussions!

332. Remington Steele - May 9, 2013

I’m not gonna go into too much discussion on this movie (first half was ok)

But I have to understand, why rip off The Wrath of Khan so much? None of this, paying homage crap.

They stole dialogue, word for word and threw it in.

From the moment Enterprise cripples Reliant to the end credits, you are looking at Star Trek at its utter finest yet the heartfelt moments are taken and thrown in here with zero effect and no emotion and just annihilate the scenes

Spock shouting, “KHAAAAAN”….I honestly couldn’t get over my disgust at that.

As a final point, one I raised here in 09, what have they done with Spock, they have taken one of the greatest science fiction characters ever written and beaten him with a bat. Constantly emotional and not even remotely like the Soick we know. And none of this “It’s a new Spock” nonsense.

Originality clearly doesn’t exist here. Did we REALLY need another Khan story?

333. DaddlerTheDalek - May 9, 2013

I saw this Movie some hours ago. Great! :)

334. Shatner's Hairpiece - May 9, 2013

I liked it a lot. Great movie.

However, I had already come to terms with my biggest and only real gripe – the fact that they had decided to go with Khan as the villain – some time ago.

As others have said, I was actually kind of glad I had spoiled this fact for myself prior to seeing the movie. It prepared me for it instead of having my head explode in unashamed nerdrage on the night.

Though the special effects and action were breathtaking, I felt what really lifted this film and made it great was it’s emotional heart. I was gutted when Pike died, and even though the TWOK homage scene was a bit silly, Quinto & Pine pulled it off well (I really felt for Spock in that scene).

There was actually less that bothered me as a long time fan in this film than in Star Trek (2009). For this reason, and the fact that it has heart, I would rate this movie slightly higher than it’s predecessor.

The Khan thing still annoys me, but it’s basically the only thing that p*ssed me off.

335. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 9, 2013

Nothing in the movie really pissed me off. There was nothing trite about how they showed Kirk dying and having Spock react as he did. This had nothing to do with vulcan/human Spock being in an alternate universe. As Sarek told us in the first movie, was that in many ways vulcans’ emotions can even be more powerful than those of humans’, which is why various methods were instituted to help vulcans learn to control these powerful emotions. I believe this is also part of TOS canon.

This Spock no longer has the “filters” (that the same Spock had in the prime TOS universe) to help him cope in a more vulcan-like calm, more stoic like manner. Kirk’s death seemed like for him the “straw that broke the camel’s back”. At least, that is what I made of his reaction in the scene.

I did remark, upon seeing that scene at the twist and the dialogue used, with a quiet comment to my son, “OMG. They haven’t? OMG. They have!” The writers did not have to steal from anything. It was a good touch actually.

To MJ – Have the best bottle of wine (or other favourite beverage of your choice) on me for intuiting all along that the villain would be Khan. I did not agree with some of your reasoning, but your intuition was right all along. Congratulations and I mean that sincerely. Well done, MJ!

I hope all is well with you as we have not seen any of your posts in a while. I also hope you enjoy seeing STID.

336. McCoy's#1Fan - May 9, 2013

Can someone tell me, since they redid the death scene word for word, just switching Kirk/Spock, was McCoy involved? Calling Spock to “hurry” and stopping him from opening the chamber, saying ‘it’s too late”

That woul make it worthwhile for me. (Already know how McCoy revives Kirk, just hope he is involved in the death scene as he was in TWOK)

337. Jim, London - May 9, 2013

It gripped my sh*t that not once in into darkness did the enterprise even fire its weapons – Federation flagship and no matter what it comes up against it seems to get dicked on!

Will we get to see Kirk brilliant the starship captain at some point in a future film??

338. Nick - May 9, 2013

335, keachick … MJ decided to take a break to avoid spoilers I think.

No doubt will be back soon!

Glad to hear u enjoyed it!

339. Curious Cadet - May 9, 2013

@299. Geek Girl,
“Still not sold on the idea that Harrison was actually Khan, I think he may be one of his followers…. Perhaps he claimed to be Khan in order to protect his leader”

What a very good idea.

After all, he’s already been deceitful in the first half of this film, why not the rest? The problem now is that the drama in this film seems to be built around Khan, and changing his character yet again diminishes some aspects of the story, namely Spock’s screaming the name. So the film loses some of its power upon subsequent viewings. More importantly, they have to find an actor who can top Cumberbatch’s performance.

But that’s only IF they ever unthaw Harrison/Khan again. Though it’s a perfect opportunity for a new director to tackle Khan in Abrams’ universe (assuming no new reboot). I could easily believe that he’s not really Khan, but Joachim. It makes so much more sense and solves so many problems. All the motivations remain the same and making him something less than “Khan” doesn’t change anything … It means we have another badass villain in the Trek universe.

Frankly the whole Botany Bay thing strikes me as unnecessarily complicated, as Khan’s backstory has nothing to do with anything. What must a non-Trek audience think about a character who randomly annunces he was genetically engineered 300 years in the past (1960s)? There’s no setup, no context and doesn’t really apply to any aspect of the plot.

I would personally find it more interesting at this point to learn that Harrison was engineered by Marcus and the whole Khan myth was told to Harrison to keep him in the dark about the actual program that developed him. Maybe a future film featuring Capt. April will tell us this …

340. smike - May 9, 2013

Second viewing…most scores are settled so far… I really have to apologize I didn’t get some of the outcomes the first time around… still the Transwarp beaming to Kronos bothers me…but the rest has been clarified…

So, overalll, it’s a freakin’ great film!!!

341. Curious Cadet - May 9, 2013

@248. NCC-73515,
“Kirk is not completely dead, his brain still works. That’s why they had to put him into the cryotube, to preserve his brain funtion.”

Thanks for this. Helps me accept the conceit.

“Still, the tribble was supposed to be dead. That’s where you have a point.”

And therein lies the rub. Unfortunately, none of us knows the anatomy of a tribble. We also don’t know if the tribble had any kind of brain damage upon being revived — and how would McCoy test that? It’s also possible the biology is totally different so it’s not a fair test compared to humans, even if there’s no brain damage. Also, how did McCoy store it? Refrigeration? Yet another mitigating aspect.

However, I think what irritates me the most about this, is that they now have Khan resurrection juice. They carry it on away missions and virtually no one ever has to die again. There’s really no way around never using this trick again — they have a cryo tube full of it, possibly 73 cryo tubes, as well as technology that can analyze matter to the subatomic particle allowing it to be identified and reproduced, or even cloned. From a purely dramatic standpoint, it is the worst mcguffin ever created (unless that’s the point of the story — e.g. “The Mark of Gideon”).

342. smike - May 9, 2013

“Still not sold on the idea that Harrison was actually Khan, I think he may be one of his followers…. Perhaps he claimed to be Khan in order to protect his leader”

What a very good idea.

I would personally find it more interesting at this point to learn that Harrison was engineered by Marcus and the whole Khan myth was told to Harrison to keep him in the dark about the actual program that developed him. Maybe a future film featuring Capt. April will tell us this …”

Really? C’mon! It’s time to finally settle. BC was playing Khan and that’s the way it’s gonna enter Star Trek history. I do acknowledge I was wrong about him playing a mere DNA-Khan… So please… finally accept he was the real Khan all along! Do you really believe there’ll be a second revelation? If anything, they’ll be reprising Real-Khan as an aid against a potential Klingon threat! There is NO WAY he’s going to prove to be another charachter! It’s what this movie’s all about….John Harrison being Khan! No one will ever take that back!

343. Melllvar - May 9, 2013

#339

Interesting idea.

It makes no sense, in the context of continuity, that Khan should look / sound any different from the original. My thought was perhaps that upon unfreezing him, Marcus forced him to change his accent / appearance (possibly surgically for the latter) in order to not look be taken as Khan, the tyrant of history.

But one of his followers… taking on his identity since he is clearly the only augment fighting for their cause…. makes sense!

344. smike - May 9, 2013

@Curious Cadet:

Joachim? A throw-away character from TWOK that was stupid enough to challange Khan’s “superior intellect”? Why are you so obsessed with this minor character? Juist because of the white-washing issue (which shouldn’t even BE an issue in the first place if you take racial equality either way)?

It’s really incredible you still think about undoing the Khan revelation. There is NO FREAKIN’ WAY they ever gonna undo that! Nuff said!

345. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 9, 2013

Yes. That is what I did wonder about – whether John Harrison called himself Khan, because he actually envied and wanted to be the real Khan Noonien Singh. John Harrison usurped the real Khan’s name and position…

I am surprised that Orci/Kurtzman decided to revisit the Khan story because it does present certain continuity issues. As far as I know, none of the eugenics and war took place in this 1990’s universe or are taking place in the way it was presented in Space Seed.

The notion of the first Star Trek movie was that only when Nero passed through the “black hole” created by the red matter did this alternate universe come into being. The writers have told us that Nero (and eventually prime Spock) did not inadvertently pass into an already existing alternate universe with there being no return to the one they came from.

The story now being told would make more sense, be easier to comprehend, if, in fact, this alternate universe already existed but at an earlier time alongside its almost identical/very similar prime universe counterpart. That would also account for the variations (big and small) in ship design etc, eg the Kelvin and other inconsistencies.

Did the Supreme Court get incorrect information?…:)

346. smike - May 9, 2013

“But one of his followers… taking on his identity since he is clearly the only augment fighting for their cause…. makes sense!”

So THAT makes sense to you? You people are crazy! No one is even getting a flying feck about those over-the-top fanboy ideas! The score has been settled. John Harrison was Khan and the next movoe will be about the Klingon Wars… if you really believe the bull**** you’re cooking up, you’re meant for immediate psychological care….

There is NO way they are ever going to reprise that revelation again with a different outcome. Admitt you were wrong and swallow it!

347. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 9, 2013

John Harrison is now Khan, for all intents and purposes. If there is the original Khan, who came from Northern India, still lying in one of the cryotubes, we’ll probably never know. What to do with such beings?

348. smike - May 9, 2013

I can hardly believe what I’m reading… fanboyish dreams about John Harrison being Joachim after all what has transpired? Up to today I was thinking of me being crazy and out of it! But YOU are really going beyond anything I could have ever cooked up! How on Earth would they be actually sell this to the PUBLIC? No, we were wrong the first time… he wasn’t Khan, but his shipmate Joachim…Right? Wank off on that pipe dream all you want, it ain’t gonna happen in any universe ever conceived by Star Trek authors!

349. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 9, 2013

smike – get over yourself and calm down!

The fact is – anything is possible, including the notion that John Harrison is not really the Khan from Northern India, but simply says that he is. I cannot recall he, or anybody else, saying his full (Space Seed) name – Khan Noonien Singh in the movie.

I believe that the word “Khan” is also a title.

350. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 9, 2013

smike – you forget that there are one or two girls here as well so you will also need to accept some fangirlish dreams as well.

I have not been a fan of the idea of there being Khan again in this movie series. I can’t believe just how widespread the Khan/TWOK popularity is, or is it an obsession for some? I suspect that is why the Supreme Court decided to go with the reimagining of this character because, clearly, the Khan character has captivated so many people for the last 30 years. It is just that he never really gave me any jollies. I couldn’t care less who Khan was or who plays him now.

Benedict Cumberbatch was very good. If his John Harrison wants to call himself Khan, who am I to argue?

351. smike - May 9, 2013

So it’s ME to calm down? How crazy can this get? If you really think it is even remotely possibly they are ever gonna reveal JH to be any other character than Khan, you are simply out of your earth-bound minds! Nope, they are making these movoies for the general public who have NO IDEA who Joachim or any other generic augment is! They may know who Khan is, as they know who the Joker is! That’s why they picked him! If you deny that very fact, that instance of common sense, you ridicule yourself beyond repair! But go ahead! I’ve got nothing to lose…. I know I’ve been (kinda) right, and NO ONE is gonna take that fact away from me!

352. smike - May 9, 2013

Or do you really realy on that fact he didn’t give his FULL name? Okay, next time some movie character claims he’s Hitler, you may argue he hadn’t disclosed his first name Adolf! So maybe he is just one of Goebel’s poisoned sons who just claims to be Hitler for the sake of it. Right? Not gonna happen…moving on the the “Soviets” aka Klingons…

353. smike - May 10, 2013

Now really…why woul Admiral Marcus thaw Joachim first? Why? Right because YOU want him to do that…. There is absolutely no logic in that…

354. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 10, 2013

smike – are you trolling or something? I never mentioned Joachim.

The fact is that Khan is a very common first name and surname. I believe the surname Hitler is also fairly common. That does not make everyone with such names as being that Khan Noonien Singh or that Adolf Hitler.

Now, once again, I say – calm down!

355. Mitchell - May 10, 2013

@315. Konrad:
‘jj’s just a wild dog. i want whoever let him off the leash held responsible’ -to paraphrase The Dark Knight

@327. Disinvited:
so in the 23rd century they need the blood of a defrosted 200 year old man (their time) to revive someone barely alive. Annnnd not their own futuristic cryotubes and advanced medicine? i guess all rodents were destroyed in Eugenics Wars and they never got around to that study.

i know you weren’t pushing an explanation but anyone who will needs to give it up, that story beat is a plot hole the size of The Mutara Nebula

356. Mitchell - May 10, 2013

@315. Konrad:
‘jj’s just a wild dog. i want whoever let him off the leash held responsible’ -to paraphrase The Dark Knight

@327. Disinvited:
so in the 23rd century they need the blood of a defrosted 200 year old man (their time) to revive someone barely alive. Annnnd not their own futuristic cryotubes and advanced medicine? i guess all rodents were destroyed in Eugenics Wars and they never got around to that study.

i know you weren’t pushing an explanation but anyone who will needs to give it up, that story beat is a plot hole the size of The Mutara Nebula

357. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 10, 2013

I’ve just seen the movie for the 2nd time – this time in 3D. I’m still pleased with it. I’m not a fan of 3D, and this movie hasn’t really converted me. I will continue to prefer 2D for seeing movies. Having said that, I did not find the movie unduly dark, as I normally find 3D, and I still enjoyed it in the 3D format. I will be going, with the whole family, to see again on Sunday in 2D.

I actually appreciated the ‘death scene’ more the 2nd time around, as Spock comes to more appreciate the concept of close friendship with Kirk, even as it is being taken away. I find the ‘Khannn’ scream a bit jarring, but I can appreciate the need to express Spock’s rage and frustration at having something so precious revealed to him and taken away from him at the same time.

Time to have lunch now, and then I’ll try to catch up on reading the posts on this thread.

358. Questioner - May 10, 2013

Totally disappointed there was so much that could have been done but this was tired and lazy scripting …………..unless there are deliberate hints for the third movie. given JJ is a master at that game and has a group of trek obsessives around him perhaps this is not the movie it aeems to be but a set up.

This was not BC at his best. However there were suprises: the best was that CP delivered on his concept of Kirk growing up and his shock of losing the ship because of his impetuosity was one of the best performances in the movie.

A Trojan horse what was the real weapon why was that area of the Klingon homeworld a mess. Why go there at all . Has McCoy done something unethical with Kirk which will have repercussions, does this connect with what the real contents of the probe .

Why jump to Qo’noS unless it was to show that the Praxis moon had exploded. Remember there are lots of obsessive trek fans in the JJ camp and I am sure they got hammered for forgetting T’Khut in the last movie this has to be there for a reason.

Carol Marcus a weapons specialist no she knew what was in those Pods and she is intimately involved. There is also a connection unused crom the comics. the Archon mind control device and the fact Marcus was Aprils first officer why did April get wisked away by sector 31?

So thoughts why was CM rubbing belly in Sick bay is she hurt or is there something more. Is Kirk now a one man weapon of mass destruction.

I will watch a second time in the belief that JJ has planted as many pointers here as JKR in HP world.

And the Kirk death scene well that is just pure Slash fiction!

359. jon1701 - May 10, 2013

Liked it.

Didn’t love it. I think it will improve on a second viewing.

The Death scene left me cold, as did a lot of the third act.

Hated the spock line.

Loved Cumberbatch. He was so good the others struggled to keep up.

It was right on the edge of what is acceptable for a Star Trek movie, the toe went over the line a couple of times which I didn’t like but as a Hollywood blockbuster version of Star Trek it ticked all the boxes.

Coming out of the theatre my one thought was that I cant wait for trek to come back to tv.

360. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 10, 2013

“group of trek obsessives around him” not written once, but twice.

Is this how you review a film, but insulting people who, so far, may like what JJ Abrams and co have done with this iteration of Star Trek?

The death scene was pure slash fiction? What does that even mean? Please explain…on second thoughts, perhaps not.

The rest of your post does not make a lot of sense. As for the countdown comics, it is not necessary that people read them, nor must their contents connect with this movie in any way. If the writers decided to change what the comics may have told, they can do so.

361. Aurore - May 10, 2013

346. smike – May 9, 2013

“There is NO way they are ever going to reprise that revelation again with a different outcome. Admitt you were wrong and swallow it!”
__________

Regarding the identity of the villain.

I was wrong about what the writers’ and Mr. Abrams’ choice would be.

Congratulations.

362. Selor - May 10, 2013

Aside from all this pettty artificial quabble about Race and Joachim (what?)… Does anyone know who that white haired girl in red on the E-Bridge is? Definitely want to see more of her…

363. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 10, 2013

Aurore – Have you seen the film yet?

I was surprised that they would use the Khan story – or have they?

Anyway, I loved it and in 3D. This was my very first 3D film. I also went where I had not gone before. Next – the IMAX 3D experience – a first time for that as well.

My tinted glasses are very rosy at the moment and I like it!

364. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 10, 2013

“We got to see the first sequence on Nibiru 4 times because the 3D kept malfunctioning”

I just noticed this posting. Similar happened in the opening scenes of the movie when we saw it. The 3D did not work properly so the running scenes with the humorous dialogue between Kirk and McCoy did not come across as they should have. There was ghosting but it came right and was great from then on. I thought it was just something to do with our particular cinema/projector.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

365. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 10, 2013

“What about the character of David? Since in original timeline Kirk didn’t meet Khan until he was older and David grown,, is there going to be
a David in this timeline and will he live this time?”

I thought that most people posting here will have watched both the TOS episode Space Seed and the movie TWOK.

In the original timeline Kirk first met Khan during the five year mission, when *David would have been a small boy. It was fifteen years later when the two men *faced* each other again and by this time David had grown up. Khan did not kill David. David was murdered in The Search for Spock movie (Star Trek III) by one of Klingon Kruge’s men on the newly formed Genesis planet.

* Audiences were only made aware of the existence of Carol Marcus and the fact that she had a son to James Kirk when they saw the Wrath of Khan movie. Carol and Jim had met and procreated before Kirk set off on the five year mission. Dr McCoy delivered their baby, David.

366. Unbel1ever - May 10, 2013

What kind of bugged me was the fact, that the technology in this new version of Star Trek is completely arbitrary. Nobody sat down and thought about it for two seconds. To me this is a part of good SciFi. The impression of watching something that is coherent and feels like it “could work”. The Abrams team does not even stay coherent to itself.

Anybody remember how they escaped from the Singularity in the previous movie? They dumped the warp core…. and escaped on impulse. So thrusters, power and even the impulse engines still worked. Also the design of the core was completely different… . So instead of replacing the old core, they redesigned the entire drive system and decided it would be a good idea to use it for more than just warp drive?

I know this may be nitpicky, but it takes me right out of the experience. It makes the world unconvincing and that makes me care a lot less about the characters in it.

367. Paul Blackhurst - May 10, 2013

Ultimately I enjoyed the film although a few times I cringed! It was like a cross between Undiscovered country and Wrath of Khan.

Bones ‘operating on torpedoes’ (Undiscovered country)
Was that Praxis destroyed? (Undiscovered country)
The Klingon/starfleet war/conspiracy (Undiscovered Country)
The Khan Plot (WOK)
Role reversal at the end (WOK) which was my biggest cringe moment! Kirk – ‘The Ship….’ Spock – ‘Out of danger!’ Spock ‘KHAAAAAAAN’ more like a shameless appeaser!

But enough of my little gripes, I enjoyed it and cant wait to see it again!

368. jeanniespock - May 10, 2013

Saw it 5 hours ago. Loved it. Only complaint is that the 3D is awful. I saw it at Manchester UK Imax 3D, usually brilliant. The last film I saw there was ‘Avatar’ so there was a high bar to reach. However, the 3D in ST looked like cardboard cut-outs and the opening sequences looked like a bad computer game.
JJ Abrams, in one of his interviews, said the 3D post production of a movie not actually filmed in 3D had been greatly perfected. Well, it isn’t! Go to see it in 2D Imax for best effect. Having said all that, the movie was great – will see it again.

369. Melllvar - May 10, 2013

@366

Dude, they’re the same characters in a very similar situation in a different reality! It makes PERFECT SENSE that their reactions would be very similar! I thought it was beautifully poetic that they said some of the same words… it symbolises the fact that they are more or less the same people at the core as in the prime universe.

370. Questioner - May 10, 2013

I loved JJ ST 2009 and expected, given the hype, a combination of cerebral and action which this movie started with but lost momentum. You can still appreciate the good elements and cinematographic skill but be disappointed with the product over all. Equally not every movie is an actor’s best performance.

In my view JJ and team are able and could have told their own tale here rather than reusing some elements from past. They are able enough to do so and make their world as good a ST universe as that which preceded them. They did not need to rehash there was enough of a plot line to build something unique. JJ team did debate the Villain issue and where not sure themselves taking a gamble in making the decision they did.

I am left wondering or hoping that much of this is a set up for ST3. A further thought is that JJ has skill directing more than reflection perhaps there is a need for another director if a more gut wrenching moral questioning movie is needed. In truth too much action is boring and without robust dialogue you are left thinking how did we get to this point.

As for / fiction with Wikipedia available there is little need to define.

371. Al - May 10, 2013

Chief complaint?

Kirk roars Khan in his rage STWOK. Spock should whisper it in STID. Simple, effective, homage but not slavish. A real missed beat.

372. Curious Cadet - May 10, 2013

358 Questioner,
“Why jump to Qo’noS unless it was to show that the Praxis moon had exploded. Remember there are lots of obsessive trek fans in the JJ camp ”

I wondered about this. Wile I hope your speculation is true, remember they also called the planet or moon near Vulcan “Delta Vega”. However, Prais exploded due to over mining, it was not natural causes. That said, I would instead read the premature destruction of it in this timeline as a result of the same over mind that was stepped up following Nero’s incursion and more recently his escape and destruction of 25(?) ships. Since we know that the destruction of Praxis led to the downfall of the Klingon Empire, one could assume the same here and their role as antagonist is now somewhat limited. Or the result of their increased over mining is yet another super-ship Kirk must contend with in the third movie.

————————–
“And the Kirk death scene well that is just pure Slash fiction!”

Haha, I don’t think that will sit too well with Rose and others! However, I get your meaning, while not sexual it definitely seems like fan fiction that focuses on the bromance one might read on the Internet. In fact I find it hard nobody ever did a reverse of TWOK scene before.

Of course my biggest complaint about this scene is the patented Khan resurrection Jesus juice which means nobody ever has to die again. In fact it means people can knowingly put themselves in harms way knowing McCoy’s bag contains the ultimate panacea — ‘a little drop’ll do ya!’ See my comments around 341 (in case the numbers jump as usual).

373. NCC-73515 - May 10, 2013

371. Curious Cadet
That juice only works when you’re not dead yet and have some time to get healed. How platelets alone (thrombocytes, the blood cells that form blood clots through hemostasis) can repair tissue after radiation damage is left unclear.

374. Aurore - May 10, 2013

“Aurore – Have you seen the film yet?”
________

Judging by some of the comments here, Rosemary, yes, I have… years ago…

:)

…But, seriously, no. I haven’t seen the movie yet.

“I was surprised that they would use the Khan story – or have they?”

On other sites, I read the words “retread” and “rehash”, a few times regarding the movie. There are many positive comments too. I’ll know what to think of it, in a few weeks.

“Anyway, I loved it and in 3D. This was my very first 3D film. I also went where I had not gone before. Next – the IMAX 3D experience – a first time for that as well.
My tinted glasses are very rosy at the moment and I like it!”

I’m glad you enjoyed the movie, Rosemary.

375. Damian - May 10, 2013

My point about Cumberbatch being Khan has more to do with he has virtually no resemblance to Ricardo Montalban. And it’s obvious Harrison is Khan, it’s in their script, it’s canon. Not someone’s wishes. To me this was just the team wanted Khan in the movie at all costs, not matter whether the new actor playing him had any resemblance to the original or not. Noboby can tell me Cumberbatch reminds you of Montalban. End of story on that point (and as others have noted, a real simple one sentence line that he had his appearance altered for security purposes would have done the trick). It just seems to me the whole Khan thing is just unnecessary. It really smacks to me of a bunch of guys who loved TWOK above any other movie and wanted to do their own version of it (esp. regarding the ending–it seems a lot here agree that was cringworthy, or even laughable to some).

I really had hoped Harrison was a new character, or even the Harrison that we saw once or twice in the original series (that would have been a hoot–you’d never look at that guy the same). Much of the story could have been preserved (well, except the ending).

I really loved the story for Star Trek (2009) and saw it as an opportunity to see fresh, original stories that maybe for once weren’t based on TWOK in some way. I loved TWOK too, but every good thing must come to an end. TVH was hugely successful and did not draw on themes from TWOK (other than it being a sequel storywise).

And where in the world did magic blood come into play? You’d think if Khan had magic blood, he would have used it to save his wife after “Space Seed”. Red Matter I could buy because Star Trek always had some contrivances going back to the original series. But magic blood from a character that never had it before? Oy.

376. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 10, 2013

@374 Damian

“And where in the world did magic blood come into play? You’d think if Khan had magic blood, he would have used it to save his wife after “Space Seed”. ”

My hypothesis, for what it’s worth, is that in the Prime universe Khan didn’t know there was anything in the augments’ blood that could help non-augments. The conditions on Ceti Alpha V were not exactly state-of-the-art…

In the Alt universe, however, Marcus had some not-so-ethical experiments conducted on Khan after he had him revived. That was how Khan knew his blood had special properites that could ‘cure’ non-augments. It was just blind luck the McCoy stumbled on the same thing while trying to figure out why Khan could heal so quickly.

377. McCoy's#1Fan - May 10, 2013

*365.. lol, was wondering when someone would comment on that.. I meant to say met Khan AGAIN.. I am an oldtime Trek fan and watched TOS in its original run when I was in high school. I have seen every episode multiple times and have the complete collection on tape. (Told you I was an oldie.) Must admit Space Seed was never one of my
favorites.

378. Damian - May 10, 2013

375–I suppose anything is possible with Section 31. But it’s really stretching things, and I can accept quite a bit.

379. Aurore - May 10, 2013

Months after I learned about Mr. Cumberbatch’s involvement in the Star Trek sequel, I stumbled across an old blogpost (if the management approves of it, I could provide a link to those who might request it) .

Fans had shared opinions about the (then) upcoming movie, on another site.

One person, suggested that, should the villain of the next Star Trek be Khan, Indian, or, South Asian actors should be given a chance to compete for the role. At the time, a few people online seemed to believe Hispanic actors should be considered first.

Opinions differed, of course. And, one poster made a prediction.

The actor would be British.

No matter who the character would turn out to be.

The comment was made in December…2011.
Mr. Cumberbatch would be cast a few weeks later…

Some argue that casting a South Asian man as a terrorist today might have been problematic.
Would this suggest that considering Hispanic actors for the role was deemed to be the “safest” option for various reasons… until Mr. Cumberbatch dazzled everyone ?

If such was the case, which I doubt, the very safest would have probably been not to have used Khan at all, in my opinion. Rather than changing his background .

Up to now, I had assumed that Khan Noonien Singh was from Northern India. Probably a Sikh. Changing his background, to me, seems contrary to Star Trek’s overall message of… “diversity”.

Online, I discovered that Khan was a fan’s favourite. To some, comparable, to The Joker or/and Darth Vader… while for me, he had always been a character amongst other Star Trek “villains”.

Which is one of the major reasons why, although I knew the antagonist in the sequel could be anyone, I personally hoped for a brand new character to the canon .

Oddly enough that is what I will get, to a degree ; an Indian character played by a Mexican actor in “brown” make-up in the 1960’s is now, in all likelihood, portrayed by an Englishman who dyed his hair black for the role.

…And, all this time, I thought that the only sad thing about this movie was its title….

380. Curious Cadet - May 10, 2013

@372. NCC-73515,
“That juice only works when you’re not dead yet and have some time to get healed.”

I don’t really care how it works so much, just like I could accept the Red Matter just works, like so many things in the Trek world. Bringing things “back to life” is another issue. It sounds like Kirk is explained (to my satisfaction). The tribble thing is more ambiguous as you point out. The presumption is the tribble is completely dead. And as I stated, there may be an explanation for that as well. However, the point remains:

“Death” is not a single event, but rather multiple failures that lead to a final consequence. There are many kinds of death, but for me the final blow is irreversible brain death (cells breaking down and stored information that makes us who we are is lost forever). That said, if someone is killed by a phaser, all the medic has to do is inject a little Khan juice. Someone drowns or otherwise asphyxiates, ejected into space, crushed, irradiated, burned, etc … As long as the brain does not suffer irreversible damage, the Khan juice can restore them, right? I mean limbs can be currently be reattached hours after they were severed and clinical death brain damage mostly is the result of of blood flow being restored after cells are deprived of oxygen for a prolonged period of time. But the Khan juice seems to heal without side effects, right? As long as the tissues are reasonably preserved, who knows how long a body can be clinically dead before any part of it is beyond recovery this way?

Either way, unless some dire side-effect is shown in Kirk from its use, there is absolutely no reason not to add this miracle drug to the medical arsenal of the 23rd century, for which there was otherwise no cure for Kirk. Right?

It’s like this new intergalactic transporter technology — they’ve opened Pandora’s box, more or less negating the need for starships (But that’s another debate). From now on when someone dies in Abrams’ Trek the first question is going to be, ‘why didn’t they just use the Khan juice’?

381. Curious Cadet - May 10, 2013

@375. ObsessiveStarTrekFan,
“It was just blind luck the McCoy stumbled on the same thing while trying to figure out why Khan could heal so quickly.”

But this presumes that the original geneticists who created Khan did not perform similar experiments, or worse yet even ask the same questions as McCoy, and did not know this aspect of his blood existed when they themselves created it. I would suggest this is impossible. If Khan knew of the results of Section 31’s experiments, then he certainly knew what his creators knew. That said, I’m not sure it changes the result of his wife’s death in TWOK. If the creature ate her brain, there would not be much for Khan to revive.

382. Robman007 - May 10, 2013

@345…I always kinda considered this universe to be like the the “Walternate” one in Fringe (being the same writers are involved)…this universe existed, had some minor differences, then was altered by Nero/Spock…essentially Red Matter created a large Walter portal.

…either that or it’s a sly reboot with Nimoy playing an Older Quinto Spock, not his Spock.

383. Robman007 - May 10, 2013

The blood deal would work. It was never ruled out in TOS.

Spock’s scream is consistant with this version of the character. It’s not the same character anyways. Far more emotional due to the events in the first film as well as his Fathers admission to being emotional.
Works

384. Andy - May 10, 2013

Hmmm. Basically is an action movie that uses Star Trek as a theme. It isn’t really trek, the theme just looks familiar. JJ will be better suited to Star Wars, simple uncomplicated characters and lots of action scenes. His lack of understanding what trek is all about is even more apparent. This and the last one, through necessity, were nothing more than cash cows for the studio, designed to attract a mass audience with big fights, mega sexy stars and a simple plot. It is unfortunately the case that the subtleties of the trek universe and complex character development no longer have any place. Its a good watchable movie but trek it ain’t. There were flashes of excellence interspersed with a number of cringe inducing segments. The Kirk death scene homage to Wrath of Khan doesn’t work, this is overall an inferior film to that one. Why we even had to return to the Khan subject is beyond me. A whole new time line and galaxy to play with so why this? The trek feel of old has completely gone. Rodenberry’s vision, the ethos of the Federation and Star Fleet are as nothing. Lets face it, the franchise has been overtaken by people with no interest in its evolution and history and no understanding of why so many people took to it in the first place. The movie has no real soul and the interaction between the characters just doesn’t convince. It does however have dollar potential and big scenes. Its a shame but I think its finally been dumbed down to the point where another similar film would make it almost unrecognisable.

385. Captain John C Baron - May 10, 2013

As a fan since the 1970s (and owner of all 720+ episodes on DVD) I found the film to be fun, action packed and good humoured.

I thought the characters were spot on, it had several laugh out loud moments. I loved the continuity references, and the set pieces were pleasing, occasionally awe-inspiring.

I don’t get the ‘retread’ and ‘rehash’ comments at all. I thought the plot had a clever reverse twist on it. I think some people analyse Star Trek in general like you’d do a Shakespearean play and, as opposed to old Shakey, much of it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. I just take it for what it is, an entertaining, occasionally thought provoking show with great characters

Cumberbatch was brilliant as Harrison/Khan – the baddie stand-out performance.

I also smiled wryly at Scotty’s comment to Kirk about thinking they were ‘explorers’. Nice to see Nimoy again – it’s always nice, who cares if the plot didn’t really need it?

I really enjoyed it. Sure, Star Trek’s been more cerebral, but it’s never been bigger or more fun. And the 3D (which I’m normally sceptical over) worked a treat.

I think it’s definitely time for a new TV series.

LLAP

386. Captain John C Baron - May 10, 2013

Sorry, meant to say … ‘the baddie stand out performance of the film franchise, at least equalling Montalban’s interpretation of the character.’

383. It’s an interesting argument, this ‘Trek feel of old’. It certainly wasn’t lacking in its characterisation.

The problem is we’ve had five series and now 12 films over 47 years – playing devil’s advocate, seriously where is there left to ‘boldly go’ if you’re just producing stuff like its always been done? I love TOS, but it was a product of the 60s. The other series were very much products of their time (albeit with universal messages).

For me the current movies are products of current times. It’s just evolution. People should be able to do something new.

LLAP

387. Admiral_Bumblebee - May 10, 2013

If Khans blood can bring people back from the dead then why didn’t he resurrect his wife and dead crew-men on Ceti Alpha V?

388. Curious Cadet - May 10, 2013

@374. Damian,
“it’s obvious Harrison is Khan, it’s in their script, it’s canon”

Well as they say, ‘if its not in the film, it’s not canon’.

“Obvious” is an inference if its not explicit. The fact is Harrison has merely identified himself as “Khan”, which others have pointed out is a title, like ‘king’. Keep in mind, TOS only had the name “Khan” until Spock gave a full briefing identifying him as “Khan Noonien Singh” complete with a corroborating photograph, for which Spock had to do some serious research to discover. We got absolutely nothing like that in this movie. While I’m certain the intent of the filmmakers was to make Cumberbatch THE Khan, until it’s clarified on screen — there’s absolutely no reason to believe Harrison couldn’t be someone else. But yes, I take your point, for all intents and purposes of this film, he is “Khan”, just as any other speculation is likewise unsupported — just like Cumberbatch was “Harrison” for the first half of the film, since the audience has no supporting evidence to conjecture any other character. But that does not eliminate a future film clarifying that, just like Space Seed does not unequivocally rule out Cumberbatch being Khan.

——––————————-
“and as others have noted, a real simple one sentence line that he had his appearance altered for security purposes would have done the trick”

As Orci once said, they don’t want to “spoon feed” the audience (Never mind that they essentially do this for some otherwise fairly self-evident scenes, but gloss over the more complex presentations — but that’s another discussion).

Just like the question of Harrison’s true identity, there is absolutely no reason that this cannot be assumed. Canon does not support, nor does it refute this theory. And until that changes it remains a possibility. Had Spock produced a photograph as he did in Space Seed, then this would be moot. As it is, they have (intentionally?) left the question open. New audiences do not need to know anything about this, much like they don’t need to know anything about Khan ruling 1/4 of the Earth in the 1990s — Abrams’ seems to count on the fact modern audiences don’t don’t do much math anymore, and won’t figure out that 300 years earlier than 2259 is 1959 (then again the movie moves so fast they wouldn’t have time to ruminate on the ramifications of this anyway). So fans are free to interpret his appearance any way they want as there’s nothing on screen to contradict it.

This is not necessarily a problem for me, however. I’ve come to terms with the fact that Montalban’s Khan is merely being played by another actor. Ethnicity is irrelevant to the performance. New audiences won’t care, and know nothing of the QM MWI salve applied to sooth fans — they will just assume a reboot if they ever go back and watch TWOK. I’ve seen white Othello’s and black Hamlet’s so it’s all artistic license. My complaint is that this was an opportunity to cast someone of a different race in a staring role of a major Hollywood movie, other than yet one more principal white actor in the cast of STID making the total something like 10 to 2. It was a missed opportunity for racial equality and cultural diversity, especially for a film that seeks to broaden it’s international appeal.

But what I do find ironic is that the very people who would argue based on the dialogue presented in Space Seed that Khan could easily be a White British guy, are the same people who would deny that Harrison might be someone other than Khan, despite similar ambiguities in STID.

389. Damian - May 10, 2013

384–I would love a movie that didn’t involve Earth in some peril. For a ship that’s supposed to be exploring, it seems tied to Earth an awful lot. These guys love twists and turns, how about some twists on some new world or region of space. Somewhere the Enterprise is all alone far from the Federation and has to deal with some crisis (not necessarily a villain) on some farawy unexplored planet we’ve never seen.

What’s really a shame is it’s likely this team will do about 3 movies and be done, and they wasted a movie basically rehashing elements from TWOK. If they were fully invested doing Star Trek TV series, movies, etc, and then did this, maybe I could see it. But one of your 3 jaunts into Star Trek is basically a reboot of TWOK, right down to the ending. A missed opportunity for sure.

390. Damian - May 10, 2013

386–Ok. Obvious to me because he says he’s Khan, he’s concerned for 72 cryo tubes containing superhuman augments found on the Botany Bay that he’s apparently a leader of. I just find it amusing that some people think he could really be someone else pretending to be Khan, or Khan as some title.

First of all, Why they felt the need to tap the TWOK yet another time for a Star Trek movie escapes me. Also, I do have an issue with the casting choice. Partly for the reasons you mentioned. But I also felt to do Khan properly they should have either used someone of Indian descent (consistent with what the character has been described in the past) or Hispanic to be consistent with the Montalban. Neither is consistent with a British White Guy playing the part. And as you say, there is a certain lack of diversity in the movie.

391. Damian - May 10, 2013

388–movie should be “movies”

392. Robman007 - May 10, 2013

@387…I’m pretty sure that Wrath of Khan did not end with Spock engaging in a fist fight with Khan, The Enterprise falling into Earth’s orbit, Kirk being saved by augmented DNA, and the Enterprise going on a 5 year mission. I’m pretty sure Wrath of Khan didn’t have Khan having somewhat justified beef with Starfleet and I’m pretty sure that he never fought Klingons. Seemed like the film more tried to appease Trek fans by adding stuff from previous Trek films including the Kirk/Spock scene. Reboot of WOK, no, not in the least.

393. Disinvited - May 10, 2013

#386. Curious Cadet – May 10, 2013

I for one don’t have a problem with exploring the ambiguity of the Khan character in STID.

But the problem I see for you who chose to go there is that the scriptwriters have altSpock call old Spock who is a stickler for precision. Granted the audience is given scant info on Khan. But how do you make the argument that Prime Spock would answer alt Spock’s question without being certain of whom he was speaking?

394. james - May 10, 2013

Loved the movie overall, absolutely fantastic.

My one gripe is the end, the last 15 mins of the film, SPOILERS from khans defeat at spocks hands onwards was to me a total mess, like a clip show. It was just boom boom boom. progression without meaning. Literally the last dialogue interaction with kirk/spock and khan is khans parting words to kirk as he is beamed away to enterprise, and since khan is frozen not dead there is no real sense of closure on it. When the credits rolled i felt like i had missed the ending of the movie. What i would have given for an actual scene where khan gets frozen, with kirk and spock present and some parting words between them. Something. Any kind of emotional closure for the villain.

395. Curious Cadet - May 10, 2013

@386, “Obvious to me because he says he’s Khan, he’s concerned for 72 cryo tubes containing superhuman augments found on the Botany Bay that he’s apparently a leader of. I just find it amusing that some people think he could really be someone else pretending to be Khan, or Khan as some title.”

Fair enough. But again, just like Abrams may be excusing Cumberbatch as Khan due to ambiguities in Space Seed, all of these things can be easily explained:

1) “He says he’s Khan” — I like Geek Girl’s idea that one of Khan’s men is protecting their leader, or even using the opportunity to take charge.

2) “He’s concerned for 72 cryo tubes” — as any of the other augments would be.

3) “Apparently the leader of” — “apparently”, as someone protecting their leader would pretend. Oldest trick in the book, used in dozens of movies.

4) @391 Disinvited — I have not seen the movie, but if Spock Prime is only been told the name Khan (if that’s the only name Alt Spock has to go on), he is merely answering questions based on what he knows about an individual he knows as “Khan”. If Prime Spock sees a picture of Cumberbatch, that’s a bigger problem. But even if he’s seen a picture, if it’s not explicitly discussed on camera it does not rule out an unmentioned twist — e.g. Given Cumberbatch’s unexplained difference of appearance from Montalban’s, then Harrison could have been surgically altered to resemble the Khan Spock Prime recognizes (assuming the character Cumberbatch and Montelban play is meant to have the exact same appearance in-universe, just as Pine and Shatner appear identical to others in-universe). Or alternately, Spock Prime merely tells what he knows about someone named Khan, without commenting on the picture not resembling the Khan he recognizes, at least on camera. I’ll have to see actually the scene to divine a proper retcon.

5) Finally, Damian, while amusing, it’s possible to entertain such a silly idea, because it’s not the first time Trek used some loop-hole to retcon previous canon events that seemed on the surface fait accompli (or other film, TV and book franchises for that matter). Look, Orci is on record as saying the whole QM MWI canon reset device was left intentionally ambiguous in the first movie specifically so that those who chose to see it as traditional “Terminator” time travel (mainly the general audience), could do so. Given that, by not explicitly confirming Cumberbatch is playing the exact same character as Montalban, it likewise gives some fans an out, as well as other filmmakers. I mean think about it, assuming another future filmmaker thinks of Khan as Trek’s Joker, without having to reboot the entire Trek universe yet again (and thus likely deprive Abrams of royalties), or hire Cumberbatch to reprise his role (which would be tough to top), you just change the narrative. Moreover, bringing Khan back in the way STID does is silly to begin with, so I’m just taking Abrams lead and running with it …

396. lwr - May 10, 2013

Well I for one am hoping that Trek 3 will either find Cybertron or the Engineers home world.
Better yet, maybe we will find out that Kirk’s blood now has a newly established Midi-chlorian subtance that is responsible for his regeneration and Strek 2 is actually the precurser to Episode 1!
Heck makes as much sense as all the Ignor the man behind the curtain nonsense that has been thrown at us in these two films.

Well, look on the bright side… we could all be Marvel Comics fans and twitching over what Iron Man 3 did to poor old Mandarin.

Now that was something to get hissed about!
LOL!

397. Toby - May 10, 2013

Just seen the film for myself for the first time, in 2D, I’m a long time ST fan (saw TMP at the cinema) and I for one, thought the film, despite it’s flaws was flat out cracking entertainment from start to finish, I thought the script and interplay between the characters was a lot better that ST09, with each character at least having some part to play in the story, the score was pretty much as you were from the previous film with some extra themes that lifted it, the acting was all round pretty good, no complaints. Special mention to Mr Cumberbatch – he is absolutely awesome in this film and I loved every scene he was in. The action and special effects are superb, the film moves at a cracking pace much like its predecessor with several big set pieces that I loved, in particular the scenes on the Klingon planet, the space jump, the Enterprise falling to Earth and the Dreadnaught crash – all were brilliantly done.

Now for the downsides – I can just about live with BC being Khan even though he looks NOTHING like Montalban, (lucky he put in the performance he does really), but after 4 years and all this secrecy all we get is a copy of TWOK for the ending? I can suspend my disbelief for quite a lot of things in the JJverse, but the Khaaaan scream from Spock really was pushing things a bit far for me (Ive read people complaining about the redshirt gag with Chekov – I have no problem with this – how do we know that it’s not common knowledge in Starfleet that redshirts get killed more often?) After all the little gags and in-jokes that the film pulled off very well, I found this to be the biggest let down, along with the Khan blood and the transwarp beaming (why he couldn’t have just beamed to another ship in orbit and bailed at maximum warp from there is beyond me, it wouldn’t have hurt the story or pace of the movie at all).

Another minor quibble is I would have liked to have seen the Enterprise have a pop at the Dreadnaught – even just a short exchange before being overwhelmed.

All this aside though the sheer pace and scale of the movie swept the negatives aside for me upon first viewing, it was great to see Trek given the true blockbuster treatment it deserves, and for me, as a piece of entertainment Star Trek Into Darkness absolutely shat all over Iron Man 3 which I saw in 3D very recently, it’s been a long time since I’ve left the theatre as pumped as I was last night, grinning from ear to ear, and when it comes down to it – that’s the whole point isn’t it?

398. LWR - May 10, 2013

The Red shirt “gag” for Chekov…
Has anyone mentioned that this may be a wink to why we never saw Chekov in SPACE SEED but Khan knew him in TWOK?

LOL!

399. Robman007 - May 10, 2013

It’s THE KHAN. Remember from Space Seed…in the DY-100 class, the leader was the first to be awakened and it was usually automatically done. The others had to be awakend manually.

It’s can’t be another crew taking his name. He was the first to awaken. End of story…

400. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 10, 2013

#366 – “They dumped the warp core…. and escaped on impulse. So thrusters, power and even the impulse engines still worked. Also the design of the core was completely different… . So instead of replacing the old core, they redesigned the entire drive system and decided it would be a good idea to use it for more than just warp drive?”

What? I thought that the impulse engines along with thrusters, power worked whether there was a functional warp core or not. That has always been the case. It is just travelling on impulse engines alone make for a much longer, slower journey. It is also makes escape harder if confronted by an aggressor with a starship capable of warp speed.

Often times, Kirk and Picard, would be going on impulse power when they were mapping/chart new star systems or because Elaan of Troyius needed to be taught manners/etiquette…:)

I think they must have used the research facility just north of San Fransisco to film the new warp core engines. Rather cool actually, when you consider that is where the new cutting edge technology is happening or may happen. I believe that this facility is working on making nuclear fusion (as opposed to the present nuclear fission) a workable and safe power source for the future.

401. Robman007 - May 10, 2013

Yeah, the impulse ALWAYS functioned seperate of the Warp Drive.

402. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 10, 2013

#399 – I cannot recall if the movie told of events, such as the leader being first to awaken, took place exactly as they did in Space Seed. For one thing, the Enterprise did not discover the Botany Bay in this timeline…

403. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 10, 2013

On this thread and others – there are some people who appear to be getting angry and frustrated with what they are reading about the movie, except that many of them have not seen it yet.

Please – calm down. Go see the movie, then say whatever…

404. Disinvited - May 10, 2013

#396. lwr – May 10, 2013

Well don’t forget PLATO’S STEPCHILDREN establishes Kirk’s blood can support the Trek equivalent. What was it called? Kironide? In that episode the only thing slowing the natives down was their inability to use telekinesis to rid themselves of infections.

405. Unbel1ever - May 10, 2013

#400. Keachick – rose pinenut

“What? I thought that the impulse engines along with thrusters, power worked whether there was a functional warp core or not. That has always been the case.”

Yeah, that’s the way it was. Until Star Trek into Darkness, apparently.

406. lwr - May 10, 2013

Plato’s Stepchildren…
LOL!!!

Could you just imagine what these boards would be like if TrekMovie and the web exsisted in the 60’s!!

Man… those guys couldn’t even get the stardates to stay in sync.
LOL!

407. Damian - May 10, 2013

397–My biggest gripe is the copy ending (which is what I was referring to in my remaking TWOK comment). I can imagine most Trekkies cringing at that scene. I mean it’s one thing to regurgitate themes from the TWOK endlessly (which I wish the Star Trek movies would drop for once), but to lift an entire scene and redo it has to be pushing it even for the most ardent JJ fan. Reminds me of geekfans recreating the scene on YouTube for kicks. Spock yelling “Khan” probably has William Shatner rolling his eyes. I mean, with this talented writing team, you couldn’t come up with an original ending (I imagine they thought they were being witty or something)

408. Damian - May 10, 2013

405–LOL. Not all changes from Nero’s incursion were good apparently.

406–This site would have had a field day with “Spock’s Brain” (which honestly isn’t all bad, well except the whole disembodied brain thing).

409. Curious Cadet - May 10, 2013

@399. Robman007,
“It’s can’t be another crew taking his name. He was the first to awaken. End of story…”

Of course it can, you just aren’t trying hard enough. ;-)

We have no idea how the Botany Bay was discovered this time, or under what circumstances, or how the loss of Vulcan may have affected various trajectories throughout the universe. And if you recall Khan’s chamber failed when he was awakened in TOS, it might well have failed this time without anyone to save him, while another cryo pod (perhaps containing Harrison) which failed sometime between Marcus finding the BB and when it was found in TOS had not yet failed, still equaling 73 functional pods in the end. I can think of several more scenarios off the top of my head which are equally as plausible to anything Abrams has proposed in STID, not to mention the entirety of Trek canon.

The story, as it were, is far from over …

410. lwr - May 10, 2013

“Hail, hail, fire and snow, call it Star Trek and we shall go. plot holes may what plot holes be, JjAbrams give us Star Trek 3″.

LOL!!

411. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 10, 2013

Hang on. Perhaps I missed something in the movie. I thought that this warp core and impulse engine worked in the same way as they always have. If both the warp drive and impulse engines are hit, irreparably damaged, then the ship is in real cow dung.

It would not be the first time that a Starfleet ship has been in that position.

#409 – Yes, I agree. This story is far from over. In this alternate universe, Kirk may well have a real nemesis to deal with in whoever this Khan/Harrison guy is. This is unlike the prime universe, where that Khan was never a nemesis of Kirk, unlike Klingons.

I guess, Star Trek fans have spoken and have been given what they have erroneously believed and indeed wished for – Khan as Kirk’s ongoing rival and regular pain in the a**. Let the bitching and griping begin…:(
Duh.

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413. J - May 10, 2013

Just saw the movie in Bulgaria. So far very pleased (I need at least 2-3 more viewing to start bitching)

Things I paricularly liked:
– Nibiru men drawing the E opening credits
– Chekov red-shirt gag
– San Francisco still has a street-car in 23rd century
– Sulu in The Chair

Things I didn’t like:
– Warp core design – I think they should just build a proper set instead of doing on-location
– Transwarp beaming again – as someone pointed out Harrison could’ve just beamed to another ship and then go to Kronos with that ship
– Wasn’t that Earth-Kronos trip a *tad* short?

Mixed bag:
– Spock yelling “Khaaaan” – I like it as long as I treat it as a hard, in-your-face inside joke

414. Robman007 - May 10, 2013

@409..this is true. I’m pretty sure that there might be a deleated scene with Khan giving his full name, but it was left out as a possible way to bring the real Khan back in some form or fashion, although I’m thinking we are putting too much thought into it..would be fascinating to read the novel.

I’m slightly miffed at the new release date for the soundtrack. Delay a CD that will just get a 2 disc release in a year anyways. Awesome. I’m also slightly annoyed that only Europe is getting the Into Darkness model for the Enterprise. Frustrating since Polar Lights cancelled the US version.

415. Robman007 - May 10, 2013

Besides…Khan is a title, not the man’s first name….

I like the story possiblities of what Augment blood will do for the good Captain Kirk, althoug what more can you do for a man who has super man strength while hanging from ledges. Shatner Kirk excelled at logic looping AI. Pine Kirk can hang off a ledge with one hand and do anything else with the other..insane

416. Disinvited - May 10, 2013

#409. Curious Cadet – May 10, 2013

According to this transcript:

http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/24.htm

There were 85 units. Twelve discovered malfunctioned after a “… boarding party of engineering and medical specialists are now completing their examination” in the later time of the Prime find.

It seems odd to me that an earlier discovery would find the exact same number of units malfunctioned. To the extent that I want to lean towards sabotage perhaps by the hand of Khan himself? But 300 years is a long time and most electronic devices, if they are going to fail, fail within the first year of activation. A ten percent failure rate would account for 9 leaving three candidates for a possible Khan (or an other augment) sanction.

417. Toby Christian Nelson - May 10, 2013

@413 Forgot about that – surely there’s no-one on here who didn’t absolutely LOVE that scene!

418. Curious Cadet - May 10, 2013

@415. Robman007,
“Besides…Khan is a title, not the man’s first name….”

Recall when Kirk asked his name in Space Seed, Montalban simply replied “Khan is my name”. Kirk even commented on this: “Khan, nothing else?”, to which Montalban replied, “Khan”. In other words: “you may call me, ‘your highness'”, assuming it isn’t his actual first name.

@416. Disinvited,

Yes I had this discussion earlier as I too thought it strange, but 12 containers over 300 years, as you say likely early on, is not an unreasonable failure rate, or alternately prolonged use past their design parameters, hence the failure of Khan’s unit.

Sabotage has been discussed earlier on when Joachim was being proposed by some. Perhaps Khan’s unit failed intentionally as part of Joachim’s plan to take over. Your idea is interesting too, and gives someone like Harrison a motivation to take over when he discovers the suspiciously failed containers, which Khan selected to eliminate as deadwood from his cadre. Alternately, it could have been part of an pre-meditated takeover plan to eliminate the most loyal to Khan thus ensuring his smooth transition.

419. LeoBerlin - May 10, 2013

After reading all of the posts here there is something else I think about: mankind has developed but the only answer to a terrorist is to freeze him? No rehabilitation? If there’s a problem just freeze it? Isn’t that like death penalty? They should be over it in the 23. century.

420. Commander K - May 10, 2013

One gripe about this movie is… THE ENTERPRISE DOESN’T FIRE ONE SINGLE WEAPON IN THE WHOLE FILM and just gets ragdolled around. :(

421. Jim, London - May 10, 2013

@420 its like a star wars film with x-wing fighters but no dogfights!

422. Curious Cadet - May 10, 2013

@419 LeoBerlin,
” the only answer to a terrorist is to freeze him? No rehabilitation? If there’s a problem just freeze it?”

Interesting observation. Was it Minority Report that did that?

Of course the US virtually does that in Guantanamo Bay.

Kirk was taking Khan back to face charges right? What happened to that? Star Trek 3 the trial of Khan?

Of course Trek does have at least two penal colony for criminals and the criminally insane — Tantalus if they could be rehabilitated, and Elba II if not. The miracle drug that eradicated insanity wasn’t developed in the Prime universe for at least 8 more years.

It probably would have been a lot more interesting to send Khan to Elba where he could rub elbows with Garth of Izar.

Ultimately I guess young Kirk does not yet have the experience to make a ballsy decision like marooning Khan and his people on a planet of their own to tame and live the lives they were bred to live. It would have been kind of cool to see that ending, but I guess in this universe Khan has already gone too far and that wouldn’t sit too well with modern audiences who demand that evil villains get their comeuppance. In that respect Space Seed was really ahead of its time.

423. Beware of ABKCO! - May 10, 2013

Didn’t Prime Spock say “Khan Noonien Singh”?

418. Curious Cadet – May 10, 2013
@415. Robman007,
“Besides…Khan is a title, not the man’s first name….”

Recall when Kirk asked his name in Space Seed, Montalban simply replied “Khan is my name”. Kirk even commented on this: “Khan, nothing else?”, to which Montalban replied, “Khan”. In other words: “you may call me, ‘your highness’”, assuming it isn’t his actual first name.

424. Beware of ABKCO! - May 10, 2013

…during his little chat with nuSpock, I mean.

425. Beware of ABKCO! - May 10, 2013

And I meant to reply to this:

349. Keachick – rose pinenut – May 9, 2013

“I cannot recall he, or anybody else, saying his full (Space Seed) name – Khan Noonien Singh in the movie.

I believe that the word “Khan” is also a title.”

426. Curious Cadet - May 10, 2013

@423/424. Beware of ABKCO!,

I knew what you meant. Haven’t seen it yet, but if Prime Spock said it, that is to be expected — he would, by way of adding information to NuSpock’s query. If nuSpock said it, then it’s a whole different story. As is Prime Spock actually seeing a picture of Harrison.

By the way, does your name actually refer to the music company?

427. Beware of ABKCO! - May 10, 2013

Also, Memory Alpha has been amended to include the alternate timeline “Khan Noonien Singh.”

Quick question, which I’m sure has been and will be asked: Would the blood of the other augments not also have revived Kirk? When McCoy initially says “Get me a tube!” I assumed that’s what he was thinking of.

428. Beware of ABKCO! - May 10, 2013

Spock Prime said it when asked via Skype by nuSpock if he ever encountered Khan.

And I am asking if he said it only rhetorically. He did say it. I do not believe an image was on screen at the time, and I don’t assume one was transmitted.

The Memory Alpha entry suggests, I think, that his Englishness is a function of his “new identity” as John Harrison, a member of Starfleet.

And yes, my name is a reference to the company, made by George Harrison. On a bootleg recording of “Beware of Darkness” he sang “Beware of ABKCO.”

It is also the common name of a popularly bootlegged studio session early in the “All Things Must Pass” recording process. The recordings are basically what he sat down and played for Phil Spector to introduce Phil to what he’d been working on.

429. Mach1 - May 10, 2013

My thoughts:

I somehow managed to abstain from this website for the last three years (and any other Star Trek related site I might ad), so I had little if no knowledge of what this movie was about or contained going into the theatre tonight.

I am a Star Trek fan obviously ( like all previous Star Treks in their own way and am quite accepting of change etc), but I do not feel that has hindered or made my view of this film prejudice and have tried to approach my review objectively.

My main view of the film after seeing it tonight was one of massive disappointment. The film was flawed on so many levels I do not know where to begin.
1. Firstly, they have a chance to continue a reboot of an entire franchise, with the universe at their feet, and they rehash a well trodden story in the worst possible way. It wasn’t even a new take on the story! Like showing what Kahn did on Earth before his escape etc. It would have been far better if they had just remade Space Seed!
2. The writing was contrived and lazy. Kahn’s back-story was rushed, his character development nearly non-existent (for newcomers especially). There was literally no tension between Kirk, Kahn or even Kahn and Spock.
3. The interactions between the crew were unprofessional at many points and the language was unsophisticated lazy and poor.
4. There was no real sense of who Kahn was, what he did and why. He did not actually have that much dialogue either!
5. At certain points there was no sense of rank or command structure or decorum and at sometimes even respect between the enterprise crew. The crew at times behaved like overly hormonal young adults having a laugh! Uhura was just awfully unprofessional, although I think the actor is horribly miscast.
6. The films pace started at 100mph and then just got faster. Any serious discussions happened mid-fight, explosion etc and were usually shouted. There was no pacing nor calm moment at any time that I recall. It was as if the writers were trying to distract us with more action before we had chance to realise the awfulness of some of the dialogue/plot.
7. The characters were more clichéd than ever before. In the original series they were already caricatures to begin with. In this film they came across as caricatures of caricatures. At certain points I thought I was watching a spoof! Bones quoted more metaphors than the entire original series. Spock never gave any sense of the warmth or depth that Nimoy achieved. His portrayal is so flat in my opinion. Checkov constantly shouts and runs around like a teenager on heat ( you could say that was his character in the original series, , but in these modern films I think it’s like he’s on Prozac or something!)
8. Many plot points were contrived. Why actually were they stopping a Volcano erupting in the first place? Why?! So Kirk could get demoted as a plot point? To show he’s a bit of a maverick? But then he gets reinstated when Pike dies? So it rendered the whole first part pointless??!? Except to show Kirks maverick nature?! I have no idea…
9. The nods to Star Trek lore…Spocks KAHHHHN, and the ripped off dialogue from Wrath of Kahn was actually awkward to watch at points.
10. What was Spocks random cameo for? A quick call to Vulcan for help (literally a phone a friend)?? What did he actually tell new Spock that helped him?!?!

Nerdy Complaints: I usually avoid these as…..at the end of the day…. it’s a film….but:

If this new transporter technology that Scotty had now developed/invented, why could only Kahn use it to get to Kronos?!? Whys is it not more widely used? What’s the point in starhips if that’s the case!!!

Since when could communicators work at distances from Kronos to a bar in San Francisco.

What’s the deal with the “Super Starship” with double or triple the warp speed of the enterprise! Everything went so fast I don’t even think I saw its design clearly; it was always just a great dark shadow.

What happened to Shields actually stopping weapons from majorly damaging the hull! Shields were still at 30% at one point and half the hull was missing.

There were many more but my head hurts to much to think of them all.

Comparison Complaints

Compared to event the worst Star Trek films of yore, this was a poor film. Fine, the action was fantastic, the graphics were great, the score was…well…generic…but it had no pace, it had little content and it had no soul. Sad to say but it is another franchise that has sold its self to fast action and little plot.

The new crew never achieved the sense of friendship or closeness of the original crew had in my eyes (I can’t tell if this is my own bias or not). Their relationships and dialogue with each other seemed to more be contrived, it did not seem genuine nor heartfelt. I could not have cared if Kirk had died or not.

It s so hard to put it to words so quickly after seeing it what I truly felt and why, in my opinion, it did not work.

To make it clear, there were moments I liked, and found there to be many points I laughed. But for the vast majority, I was bored, unmoved and unimpressed. I felt no tension at any time, nor felt for the characters in anyway.

Sorry guys, thumbs down from me.

430. J - May 10, 2013

“THE ENTERPRISE DOESN’T FIRE ONE SINGLE WEAPON IN THE WHOLE FILM”

Good! At least us hardcore fans won’t whine about the phasers being too Star-Warsy! ;)

431. John Harrison - May 11, 2013

the actor Nolan North had a role in this film. who did he play?

432. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 11, 2013

I didn’t have a problem with Khan being refrozen.

My take on it was that, as Kirk said in his oration, mankind’s first instinct is vengeance but we need to move beyond that (obviously I’m paraphrasing – I’ve only seen the movie twice and don’t have an eidetic memory).

Khan and his followers were under death sentences for genocide in the first place, and of course Khan had committed much more recent murder. Now, the instinctive thing would be to eradicate the lot of them to punish them for their crimes, and also so they could never pose a threat again.

A more considered and ethical response would be rehabilitation. However, I don’t think you would want to re-awaken these guys (I use the term here to cover both genders) unless you were sure you could successfully rehabilitate them. So, you undertake to keep them frozen until you are confident you can succeed.

Kirk is not on the 5 year mission at this point, and he is not out in the boondocks of space, so a decision to maroon them is not his to make.

Of course, leaving them frozen does run the risk of someone or some organisation obtaining them and trying to use them for their own less than ethical purposes – as Admiral Marcus and Section 31 did in the first place.

433. Buzz Cagney - May 11, 2013

These new reimagined Tribbles were my biggest disappointment. Whats with their new fur? Man, it really took me out of the movie.

To that point i was marking it a straight 10/10. After more like 5, maybe’s 6.

Joking aside. 4 years? They took 4 years? Please JJ, just go away. Just go away and take your writers with you, to that Galaxy far away.

434. endeavour crew - May 11, 2013

My bet is there is in STID there is no explanation for Kahn’s background in terms of where he was from originally- making it then easy to cast Benedict.

Am I right?

435. Slornie - May 11, 2013

First, a few responses to what other’s have said:

@137: Exactly! Why is BC playing Khan any different than Jeffrey Wright playing Felix Leiter in Daniel Craig’s James Bond?

@270: Why does the hospital being called the Royal Children’s Hospital mean that Britain still has a Royal family in the 23rd Century? The name doesn’t have to change because the country’s constitution has!

@299: Interesting idea that Harrison lied to Section 31 about his identity (as Khan). Maybe he assumed they would have records of the Botany Bay and thought they would re-freeze him if he wasn’t the leader?

Also, to all the people saying the second half of the film was a carbon copy of TWoK, were we watching the same movie? Apart from the flipped radiation scene (which worked well aside from Spock’s scream) it was completely different!

Onto my thoughts, fresh from seeing the film for the first time.

The things that I’m most dubious about are as follows:
– Harrison transwarp beaming to Qu’onos. How did that little machine manage to transport him so far? I assumed transporter technology was rather more energy intensive than that, why else would Starfleet routinely use shuttles to transfer from Earth to orbit?
– The comm call between Kirk and Scotty. The Enterprise is on the edge of the neutral zone but they can have a real-time communication with Earth?
– Scotty managing to sneak up to and inside the shipyard building/holding the Dreadnaught. Super top-secret warship and he can just casually fly up and get inside without anyone noticing and investigating?
– Carol/Kirk in the shuttle (where she gets changed). Kirk asks why they’re in the shuttle and she says it’s too dangerous to open the photon torpedo on the Enterprise, but then in the next scene Kirk is back on the bridge and McCoy is on the planet with Carol. What was the point of the scene?
– Harrison seemingly stunned by one phaser shot on the Dreadnaught but then surviving repeated stun shots from Uhura on top of that cargo lifter (or whatever). Presumably he was pretending to be stunned in the first case?

However, all that said. I really enjoyed the film and am looking forward to seeing it again! :D

436. Neil - May 11, 2013

I thought that the film was brilliant. There were some great character moments and some character scenes that went longer than I thought they would for an action movie.

The humour was also well done, without being too excruciating.

I totally didn’t hear any of the conversation about Section 31 because I was too busy trying to look at the model ships, noticing the NX-01. :)

The film was incredible in IMAX 3D, especially that spear coming toward you on planet Nabiru. I suspect the new warp trails from Enterprise were done especially for 3D.

Some of the scenes seemed a bit to fantastical and hard to believe, like how fast Kirk was able to climb up inside the chamber.

Seeing Spock Prime was a nice touch.

I think I’m going to have to go watch in regular 2D cinema now to see all the detail that you can’t quite see with 3D.

437. Neil - May 11, 2013

Also, Benedict was brilliant as the villain. Loved how he just stomped on Carol’s leg and then crushed Admiral Marcus’ skull with his bare hands. That was pretty intense, even though the final crush was off camera.

438. smike - May 11, 2013

Sorry about that “misconduct” from two days ago. I was totally over the top… No offense intended. I got a couple of beers too many at the STID opening party, I guess… and couldn’t believe some people still didn’t believe Harrison is Khan. But that didn’t give me any right to lose it onto you….

But still…I can hardly believe anyone expects them to withdraw the “Harrison is Khan” revelation. The casual viewers would be totally confused by that. If they ever unthaw the character again (and I BET they will to take on the Klingons), he might be played by a different actor though if they take those “white-washing accusation” seriously and “restore” his true outward appearance. But I doubt that’ll happen.

However, I don’t believe he could be any other character but Khan after saying he was Khan on screen.

439. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 11, 2013

Sorry, but I am a bit tired right now so I have only scanned the comments since my last posting on this thread.

I said I could not recall hearing anyone refer to the Cumberbatch Khan or he himself say the full (TOS Space Seed) name, Khan Noonien Singh in the Star Trek Into Movie, not even prime Spock.

Of course, Spock on the Space Seed episode told us Khan’s full name and also where he was from, but NOT the culture or religion he aligned himself to.

I am talking about THIS movie, Star Trek Into Darkness.

I do not expect the film makers to withdraw the “Harrison is Khan” revelation. A white Benedict Cumberbatch *is* this Star Trek’s alternate universe Harrison/Khan.

440. Aurore - May 11, 2013

“… he might be played by a different actor though if they take those ‘white-washing accusation’ seriously and ‘restore’ his true outward appearance. But I doubt that’ll happen.”
________

I doubt it will happen either.

I believe they knew all along those well-deserved accusations were coming, but, did not fear them one bit.

To some, on the Internet the villain’s identity was the worst kept secret in Hollywood, and I personally feel the only reason “they” were denying it was Khan was to avoid the backlash during the marketing campaign .

There’s no such thing as bad publicity so they say.
However, I believe that a Star Trek movie cannot afford a certain type of controversy…

Smike.

I know you and some others don’t take those accusations seriously.

I do.

Let us agree to disagree, fellow Star trek fan.

Aurore

441. Colonel West - May 11, 2013

Saw it thursday in IMAX 3d and it’s well worth going to see it in that. Bullet point thoughts rather than a wall of text:

Cumberbatch was excellent, chewed the scenery.

I thought Pegg had actually less of the comedic Scotty in this one compared to the last which was one of my pet peeves with ST09. Definitely got some badass Scotty moments which he had in TOS.

Chekov reassigned to engineering. Kudos to Bob etc for that, if anyone doesn’t realise, that (and going to the loo) was Koenig’s explanation for not being on screen in Space Seed.

Script was a lot tighter and significantly less plot holes than 09.

Really like the twist they put on Khan and Cumberbatches portrayal, plus that he’s back in stasis and didn’t kill him off.

Bad ass Klingons and foreshadowing of a Federation/ Klingon conflict.

Surprisingly and thankfully Bones gets fair bit to do in the film and is less off side for me than the last film. Urban nails it again.

For me though two things in the one main scene in particular have the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the face, really poor decision by Bob et al:

1. The Kirk/ Spock reversal and glass scene from WoK. In WoK the scene had a hell of a lot more meaning in that it was Spock’s solution to his personal Kobayashi Maru, which he never took at the academy and his needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. With Kirk it felt needless and a cheap knock off of WoK. Also Pine showed absolutely no affects of radiation poisoning make up wise, at least in WoK Spocks face and hands were in bits with skin falling off etc.

2.) Quinto’s Khhaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn. Tied in the with above, completely needless, pointless and smacks of look how clever we are, we did things the opposite way around as it’s an alternate universe and came across as a poor parody.

The Vengeance absolutely wrecks the E but was utter fanwankery, Eaves style.

The easter eggs for the fans I remember:

The Mudd incident from Countdown/ Harry from TOS referenced

The Tribble

Archers Enterprise amongst Marcus’ models along with the Phoenix from First Contact.

Praxis blown to pieces, Anthony’s explanation of this is spot on

Nimoy cameo, bit weird that it just cuts off when Quinto asks how they defeated him.

Bat’leths!

Section 31! Very happy with that.

A Christine Chapel mention that she’s off at the furthest reaches of space. Not many will pick up on that but it’s a reference to Roger Corby and the episode “What are little girls made of?” when she was Corby’s fiancee prior to him going missing for years and making androids and giant fake rock landscapes that look like a certain male appendage for Kirk to hold. Kudos to Bob or whoever put that obscure one in there, it was much appreciated!

All in all I thought it was really good, slightly let down by the Kirk/ Spock reverse WoK scene which left a bit of a sour taste in the mouth. Having said that the magic blood thing isn’t as big a deus ex machina as was made out. Khan/ Augment blood as has been mentioned and has previous history in cannon as having regenerative properties and Bones got Kirk into stasis pretty much straight away.

I found the fast pace of the film kept the story and the action ticking over but it really could have used a few pauses for breath to allow the dramatic and character moments to really breathe and the emotion to sink in for the audience which Trek has always done well. JJ nailed that with the Kirk birth scene in 09 but there’s nothing like that in Into Darkness, everything just moves along helter skelter from one scene to the next.

Hopefully this leads into the Klingons being the main bad guys in the third film. Would love to see Kang, Koloth or Kor as the main adversary. Overall bar the reverse WoK scene it’s a good film but it still doesn’t hold a candle to the film it’s trying to be, WoK.

Oh and Bob, perchance if you’re reading this you really owe Nick Meyer a story credit. If not that than a nice bottle of something or a pint and a thank you note!

442. Disinvited - May 11, 2013

#146. Tobias Richter – May 8, 2013

#195. Reiko2088 – May 8, 2013

#429. Mach1 – May 10, 2013

#435. Slornie – May 11, 2013

This is meant as no slam, but it genuinely surprises me how popular a technology becomes in the populace and yet how little the people relying on it understand it.

Cell phones that we regularly use have a direct connection to the communicator – especially given the prominent Nokia product placement in the previous movie, it can reasonably be assumed that the cell concept is still in use. Therefore the communicator, while it may be able to send a direct ship signal farther than our phones, doesn’t have to broadcast a powerful subspace signal directly to a ship light years away to be able to communicate with it – it only has to be able to reach a local antenna that is plugged into a communications network that can make that connection for it by routing the signal accordingly.

As for time delays, well the current team has played fast and footloose with brooking the notion that time must past for certain things to transpire in Trek tech so it is a little hard to see why subspace communications must be slow but transporter signals can be “transwarp” instantaneous. Even with transwarp transportation being a restricted military secret, it would be hard to see how its signal transmitting speed would not be adapted to subspace communications?

443. Mach1 - May 11, 2013

Re: above

Oh dear – Look – if you read my post I highlighted my tech complaints under the heading “nerd complaints” because it’s a film, and they can make up any technology they want – end of.

My “nerd complaint” is based on the fact that there is no basis for that working for such a long distance in any other star trek timeline. It’s just an annoyance, they use it glibly, ignored a precedent and that is lazy writing. That’s what bothers me….. I am not concerned if it is actually possible!

REGARDLESS

Please don’t try to rationalise or explain a piece of technology that DOSN’T EXIST!!!!! They can make up anything they want ITS A FILM. You can rationalise it any way you want to yourself, but don’t waste your time thinking about it too much!

I could not care less

P.S. Please don’t try to explain to me how my phone works.

444. cmdrdiaz - May 11, 2013

is starfleet composed of only two ships? i mean…the scene of the vengeance and the enterprise fighting above earth, there are no other ships on earth? nobody could detect the fight in space?

the kirk/spock shift was a let down

445. Beware of ABKCO! - May 11, 2013

@ 439. Keachick

I’m still not quite sure what you mean, but to refresh your memory, Spock Prime does use his full name in the new film.

446. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 12, 2013

#445 – Thank you. I honestly could not remember.

Anyway, my younger son is dragging me off to see STID in 2D tonight (Sunday, 12 May NZ time) for Mothers Day. I had suggested that he and his father go, since neither of them have seen it yet, but no…so I am now *forced* out of my comfie warm house in a cold autumn (fall) night to once again to see a very trekilicious Chris Pine/Kirk et al.

I mean, I’m all for sticking the 18 year old on public transport, except that it sucks on a Sunday night. So, here I am, about to see eyes, among other things, on one of the most gorgeous looking men on the planet right now, in three hours time…Life!…sigh…:)

I thought the Kirk/Spock reversal death twist was interesting…as was the scene with Spock being rescued from the volcano…*hmmm
I could argue as to how much real harm could really have done to that particular world and people by Kirk violating the strict letter of the law re the Prime Directive…hmmm

* means “just me musing”

447. Matt4802 - May 12, 2013

Like many who have posted here, I really like my Star Trek. It has been a part of my life since I was a kid, watching the original Enterprise and crew in syndication on a black and white television, dressed in pyjamas, eating a toasted cheese sandwich on a Sunday night. It’s been a part of my life ever since and I have supported the franchise through 11 movies and six series incarnations. With all those movies and television series, one thing was evident – the ST universe was a broad tapestry of characters, stories, people and places. I even embraced the 2009 ‘reboot’ with it’s fresh take on much loved characters. And so it was that I headed off to see STID on opening day in Australia. I was spoiler free (thanks to sites like this that keep it that way, if you chose).

I really liked the movie – up to a point. I don’t say this to deride the work of JJ or the cast and crew, you can clearly see the effort and undertaking on the screen. For me, that point was when things started to seem familiar when a strong, defiant human appears as the primary villain, particularly after the Kronos encounter (Klingons looked great!). Turns out the villain was a VERY strong, defiant human. Hmmm, surely that’s not …. I continued to stick with the movie and when Harrison reveals his true identity with the words ‘KHAN’ – my heart sank a bit – mind you, only a little bit.

I’m probably showing my age, but I still remember seeing TWOK in 1982. It was a blast – the special effects, character development, uniforms, set pieces etc…. And when Spock died ….. it was such a moment of gravitas. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I saw TWOK and – still – hold it as not only one of the best ST movies in the series, but in my opinion it was the lynchpin that re-built the franchise, allowing it to travel through to 2013. The point is, I’ve seen and experienced it and can re-watch the DVD whenever I want.

As I said, the ST universe is so big and diverse, surely there was a new or lesser spoken of direction this movie could have gone. There are thousands of characters – both good and bad -, worlds and situations to explore. Why ‘Space Seed’/TWOK? And I’m not just talking about the main plot driven character of KHAN. In 2009 I went along with the ‘alternate timeline’ device to drive the further adventures of the Enterprise in a new direction. I didn’t expect that many of the old threads of the ‘original’ universe would be pulled … and rescripted. Now, instead of Spock dying in an irradiated environment to save his ship and crew, it’s Kirk (PS. does no one in the 23rd Century use radiation suits! ;-) As I said, the death of Spock in TWOK was such a moment of gravitas, I felt that switching the roles so that Kirk is behind the door cheats that iconic scene. Even when Kirk says to Spock, “It’s what you would have done” is almost a nod and a wink to TWOK. And having Spock emotionally scream ‘KHAAAAAN!’ by channelling Kirk? Was STID made for those who haven’t seen TWOK?

To finish up, I really liked how STID further develops the characters and their relationships, the special effects were spectacular, the script in places witty and charming, but overall it left me conflicted … if only a little bit. I’m still an avid fan (and we’ve had our ups and downs!), but I shall hold out hope for the future of the ST universe – I shall hold out for STXIII!

448. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 12, 2013

I’ve seen it three times, now. Still enjoying it and intending to see it again.

A couple of things I don’t like:-

the Marcus underwear scene – yes, she’s changing from the dress into the flight suit while discussing the mission with Kirk, but the actual underwear shot seems gratuitous and unnecessary ;

the Spock scream. Yes, he’s angry and distraught, but it’s not really doing anything for me. I’d probably have been happier with it if the scream had been just an inarticulate scream of rage. By contrast, the Marcus scream – despite what I thought about it when first seeing it in a trailer – is absolutely appropriate and spot-on. In fact I cannot stop myself from turning away from the screen at the scene that prompts the scream – despite the fact there is nothing to see anyway, only the sound of what prompts the scream…

A couple of things I do like:-

Spock’s conversation with Pike. Each time I see it I laugh out loud. Quinto really nails it in annoyed sassy Vulcan mode. Spock was often sassy in the TOS series (not so much the movies, in my opinion – I guess that had been Kolinahr’d out of him);

the general level of humour in the interactions. The characters are not setting out to be funny, they just are. This again is so reminiscent of TOS;

the chase scene and subsequent fight on the ‘floating barge’. It’s quite a role reversal to see a Vulcan coming off second best to a Human in a fight. It wasn’t until the second viewing that I realised Spock was trying to telepathically attack Khan – and with only limited success. I also liked it that, in another role reversal, it was Uhura who came to Spock’s rescue and was able to distract Khan with repeated stunning so that Spock could finally get the upper hand.

In fact, I like the interactions between the characters in general. There is so much there that is profound, and there is so much that is funny. The action pieces are spectacular, but the character interactions are what make it a good movie for me.

I liked it when I first saw it, and so far, I like it more each time I see it again.

449. Adam - May 12, 2013

I’ve seen it again now and enjoyed it all the more second time around. Although I’m only 29, I would definitely consider myself a very old-school Trekkie. My feeling is that Orci, Abrams and co have earned their shot at re-imagining such a classic villain and pulled it off in a very original way. I think to simply dismiss this as a remake or a rip-off is unfair. I can understand why they would choose to re-examine the only villain deemed significant enough to return in a movie. And I can’t believe people are criticising the appearance of Cumberbatch, given the position they are defending is a Mexican pretending to be a Sikh in the first place!

I think all involved can be very proud of a blockbuster that feels more Trekky that the first film. The Star Trek movies were chiefly about spectacle – that is the nature of these films. The best, most intelligent stories were always told in the TV show and I think it’s important to remember that when looking at a sci-fi action film like Star Trek Into Darkness.

I’m curious if anyone who has read the prequel comics could highlight the elements they contained that pointed towards the film?

450. Adrian - May 12, 2013

★★★ (out of 5)

Well, that was kind of underwhelming…

It probably won’t surprise anyone here that I’ve been a huge Star Trek fan since I was a child, but I feel I need to state that first because some of my frustrations with the film probably stem from its inconsistency with the lore and spirit of the Trek universe. I mean, those are hardly the movie’s only problems, but I imagine someone unfamiliar with Star Trek beyond the 2009 movie might be much more forgiving of some of those flaws and be able to just lean back and enjoy the ride. Because the “ride” part is certainly the one thing this movie mostly excells at. The pacing is breathless, the visuals impressive, the actors charismatic, and the action often exciting, even as some of the action scenes, and indeed the entire structure of the film’s plot, often feel like a mere rehash of its predecessor.

Despite greatly enjoying J.J. Abrams’ first installment, I’ll admit I went into the sequel with some reservations, due to some persistent rumors about the villain and to the marketing materials seemingly working very hard to downplay the “space adventure” element and the fact that this is, indeed, a Star Trek movie. It turns out at least some of those concerns were unfounded, as the parts with people in leather jackets running around planet surfaces shooting guns are much less prominent than I feared and the majority of the action does take place on starships in space, involving a lot of familiar characters and places. I was, however, right about the villain (or villains, as it turns out) being quite problematic. The movie has two major villains, one of them, Admiral Marcus, a personified jumble of convoluted conspiracy theories (not too surprising, given screenwriter Bob Orci’s political views), the other, John Harrison/Khan, a blurred cypher without any background information or clear motivations, whose menace only becomes apparent in the context of the story when it’s spelled out by a wholly gratuitous cameo appearance. I mean, everybody who has seen TWOK knows that Khan is bad news, but I felt this was never properly set up in this movie outside of the Old Spock cameo. I almost suspect they were hesitant to delve into Khan’s backstory to avoid dealing with the whole “Eugenic Wars in the late 20th century” thing, but I do think some more more background info on the character would have been necessary. As it stands, it barely has any relevance to the story that Harrison turns out to be Khan and he could have easily been replaced with an original character to much better effect. The lack of clear character motivations makes for a pretty convoluted story, that paradoxically still manages to remain utterly predictable at every turn.

You may wonder at this point why I still gave the movie an “above average” rating, when I clearly disliked so much about it. Well, as I hinted at in the beginning, I do think there is a lot to like about it on a technical level, and I do think that many non-Trekkies will probably enjoy it a lot more than I did. (Which is ironic, seeing that they worked so hard to shoehorn in quite a few contrived Trek references “for the fans.”)
In fact, I think most everyone who worked on this movie did a pretty great job except for the screenwriters, which makes this the second year in a row where my biggest movie-related disappointment of the year was co-written by Damon Lindelof (although to be fair, the other two writers have been responsible for a fair number of clunkers over the years, as well). I’ll probably rewatch the movie at least once to see if I can ignore its problems and just enjoy the more fun elements, but for now, I’m going to have to say it was mostly a letdown for me.

451. J - May 12, 2013

I remember reading somewhere that there is scene in STID (either before end credits or *after* end credits) that is supposedly similar to ST:ENT finale… Was that Khan being frozen again? Is that it? Or am I missing something?

452. jjTrek Aint Boring - May 12, 2013

@get rid of JJ &Co people – What? You want Berman and Braga back? The guys who nearly killed the franchise?

453. Curious Cadet - May 12, 2013

@450 Adrian,
“As it stands, it barely has any relevance to the story that Harrison turns out to be Khan and he could have easily been replaced with an original character to much better effect.”

EXACTLY!

The more I look at this story, the more I am reminded of TNG’s excellent episode “The Hunted”. Then they tried to shoehorn Khan into it.

Honestly, wouldn’t this have been better and less confusing if John Harrison were just John Harrison, genetically enhanced supersoldier? I mean there’s your conflict right there, Starfleet was violating the ban on such engineering and trying to get rid of Harrison and his men before they are discovered.

This is far more believable than they revived Khan, the technological product of the 1950s to help them build starships! Seriously there are no alien races that are just as smart as Khan, or as powerful? A 300 year old genetically engineered human is more advanced than any other being anywhere in the 23rd century? And how did Khan get away in the first place? Is Marcus stupid enough to give Khan free reign, confident Khan wouldn’t try anything because his men are being held in stasis? They conscripted Khan because of his superior intellect, so they didn’t figure he could out think them? I mean seriously, you hold his men hostage to get him to WORK for you — but you keep him in a high security room he never gets to leave!

Moreover, Khan was never shown to have had the reputation Marcus seems to have sought him out for — there was an impassioned argument around here a while back as to whether Khan could be seen as a sympathetic character, and many people argued quite effectively that Khan was a benevolent dictator based on canon. So the motivation is even more convoluted. Evidently Space Seed wasn’t explicit enough on a number of fronts.

Although I didn’t really want to see the villain be Khan, I certainly was open to an original treatment of the character. I don’t think we got that, mainly because I don’t think this Khan bears much resemblance to the original — physical or philosophical. This characterization seems to be nothing but insulting to some fans, and potentially confusing for audiences.

454. Daniel - May 12, 2013

I’ve seen it twice now. I wish the Khan and Admiral Marcus characters could have had much more screen time to fill out their back story. Agreed that the story seemed rushed somehow, as others have pointed out. I enjoyed ’09 more but this is a solid effort. Too bad about Pike, I like the character a lot.

I’m under the impression that the original script started with the London stuff, not the volcano planet. That would have been better. Putting the volcano action first invites comparisons to the opening of the ’09 film with the Kelvin scenes, and that’s really tough to beat.

Oh, and when the tribble came back to life, I wish it would have been off screen at first. I can imagine hearing the tribble, seeing McCoy’s reaction, and then panning over to see the tribble come back to life.

The only line that seemed forced and out of place: “Bones, what are you doing with that tribble?” right when Kirk was talking with Khan.

Box officewise, domestically I don’t see this matching Trek 09 but let’s hope I am wrong.

455. Aurore - May 12, 2013

…A frozen villain in the sequel?

This reminds me of something a poster shared with us ages ago :

“I can hear boborci saying, its not about the villain :)

I do fantasize about a true joker type maniac causing problems for star fleet, heath ledger as a frozen joker from earths past would be awesome.

I would like to see the huge size and scope of starfleet where you feel lost and immersed in. Lets see some of that amazing technolgy, flying cars, hoverboards, mag rails, smart clothes…”(post 832)

http://trekmovie.com/2011/11/04/j-j-abrams-wants-benicio-del-toro-as-next-star-trek-villain/

456. TerokNor - May 12, 2013

@303

Yeah, I saw Hemsworth as well as Jennifer Morrison listed as having played George and Winona Kirk. What’s the deal here? Were scenes filmed but cut, and the credits left in for contractual reasons?

457. Curious Cadet - May 12, 2013

@455 Aurore,

Interesting remarks.

And somewhat prescient. It does appear that in Khan, Abrams has given us a true comic book super-powered villain like the Joker (or more accurately General Zod), rather than a realistic depiction of Khan.

Maybe that is simply what is required of the Summer Blockbuster action film these days.

All I can say is that I hope they don’t go back to Khan for the next movie. But considering what they’ve established, and depending on how much money this film makes, I can imagine a plot where Kirk himself goes back to revive Khan and his crew to talk them into helping fight the Klingons, after which Khan and his crew goes off on their own promising to cross paths with Kirk again one day (Assuming Cumberbatch agrees to ever play this character again, and I have to say I don’t see him doing it unless he is contractually bound — this isn’t exactly “Sherlock”!).

458. Aurore - May 12, 2013

“Interesting remarks.”
______

Yes.
I very much enjoyed the discussion on this (“old”) thread.

“All I can say is that I hope they don’t go back to Khan for the next movie…”

(Oh, man…)

DamOn and his colleagues may have other plans, though :

“On top of that, when asked if Benedict Cumberbatch would be back for the next Star Trek, Lindelof said:

To answer that question would be to determine whether or not he actually survives this movie, but if he survives this movie, I think that we would be incredibly stupid to not use him again.”

(Link if authorized, here) :

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/05/03/there-are-plans-star-trek-3-and-they-involve-klingons-but-what-about-abrams/

459. Classy M - May 12, 2013

It’s going great guns in the overseas market so far with $31.7m from a mere 7 markets. That’s up 70% on the 2009 film.

he U.K. led with $13.3 million from 556 locations, 50 percent better than the 2009 reboot. Into Darkness also dominated the market in Germany, grossing $7.6 million from 627 locations, 80 percent better. Australia took in $5.5 million from 263 locations, followed by Mexico with $3 million from 573 locations. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-report-star-trek-521402

460. LJ - May 12, 2013

Ok, perhaps it’s time to say this film could’ve been much better with a few tweaks. Maybe this is just fanwank (and may not make a good Trek movie) but this is what I would’ve done:

Much of the first part of the movie would be the same, bar Harrison giving blood to cure the girl – he has access to top secret research as a member of S31. After the shoot out at the top brass meeting, (in which Pike remains collateral damage, spurring Kirk on to revenge), the film would become a battle for Kirk’s soul between Marcus (who sees Kirk’s rashness and willingness to break the PD as evidence he’d be an ideal candidate for S31), and Harrison (who served with April and Marcus aboard the S31 ship Enterprise (explaining why April’s old ship is unknown) but now knows the truth: S31 are trying to foment war with the Klingons as an excuse to launch a military coup and turn the Federation into a Terran Empire, now Vulcan is out of the picture). Scotty similarly resigns over WMDs (Planet wrecking missiles).

The action still moves to Qonos, where Kirk has been tasked by Marcus o bring down Harrison, and Harrison is trying to prevent an attack by S31 agents. Kirk intervenes, and Praxis is destroyed. Harrison helps Kirk and co get off world, but is then arrested. In the brig he reveals to Kirk the truth about S31. The Enterprise is disabled when it first arrives at Qonos by Chekov, who is an S31 agent (he does not know about their true intent: he believes they are trying to keep the UFP safe).

Meanwhile, Scotty finds he S31 shipyard and sneaks aboard Vengeance. An order from Marcus to leave dock triggers a latent program set by Harrison that causes the S31 fleet to self destruct one-by-one. In a race against time, Scotty has to shut down the Vengeance self destruct sequence, revealing himself to the crew. He is on the run, trying to hide.

Enterprise arrives back at Earth, and Kirk tries to inform Starfleet of the S31 plan, but the Vengeance drops out of warp and opens fire. Both ships sustain heavy damage, and Kirk and Harrison board Vengeance, aided by Scotty. Aboard, Harrison betrays Kirk, takes the bridge and kills Marcus. He beams Kirk and Scotty back to an Enterprise that is spiraling out of control, the warp core failing. They arrive back to see Chekov redeeming himself in the chamber, fixing the core and saving the ship. Chekov dies.

The Vengeance has its own problems: the self destruct has re-activated, and the ship is diving towards San Fran. Harrison tries to steer the ship away to no avail: it crashes down and lays waste to much of the city. Harrison lives.

The film ends with the Federation Council disbanding S31 and Harrison being demoted to Lieutenant. Kirk vouches for him, and he joins the Enterprise crew as Security Chief. He reveals that ‘Harrison’ was his cover name: he is really Kyle.

A massive Klingon fleet approaches the Federation border…

461. jeanniespock - May 12, 2013

Well I have seen it.
It was good but not exceptional.
Already looking forward to number 3
Let’s hope next time we can get a director who actually ‘liked’ Star Trek
….someone grown up
….who actually watched the original
….who doesn’t say he wasn’t really a fan and preferred Star Wars

Maybe then it will work perfectly.
LLAP

462. LJ - May 12, 2013

Sorry for the long previous post, but I just wanted to outline what that film may have looked like without Khan (not that I’m against Khan’s appearance per se), and that it could’ve been done. Just keep it a straight political thriller. You could’ve kept Harrison as a canon character, and I think my idea would’ve been an awesome backstory for a recurring, yet background, character like Kyle. The non-Trekker audience wouldn’t even have to know who he was, it’d just be a btw line at the end: “if we’re going to work together, you’d better know my real name. I’m Kyle”.

463. Winkie - May 12, 2013

@456

My suspicion is that these acting credits appear because you hear their voices (dialogue from the first film) during the fade-to-black prior to Kirk’s hospital re-awakening.

464. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 12, 2013

Kirk did not have time to look out a radiation suit.

Kirk’s skin did not peel the way prime Spock’s did because I don’t think his skin got exposed to the same kind of radiation. However, as he was dying, his skin lost its colour and gained a greying, jaundiced appearance, much more consistent with radiation poisoning. The liver gets overloaded…

I found the death scene more real and involving when I watched it for a second time last night. On the first viewing, it was an easy reminder of the similar TWOK scene, however this time through, I became totally engaged with what was happening to these characters in this particular timeline. Spock’s scream was because of losing his new friend – it was a response, at the risk of repeating myself, to “the straw that broke the camel’s back”.

465. Scott McC - May 12, 2013

I saw the movie yesterday afternoon (Saturday) in IMAX 3D at the Science Centre in Glasgow. Fantastic, really enjoyed it and I will go again to view several times in 2D. I’ve been watching ST since 1969 and I’m so glad someone has taken this franchise by the scruff of the neck and started to realise it’s box office potential. I had no problems with TWOK linkages and Bob Orci et al are to be congratulated (in my opinion), for playing their part in making Star Trek a fun and exciting movie going experience that’s fit for 21st century audiences while staying true to the original shows core values.

466. Curious Cadet - May 13, 2013

@462. LJ,
Hey I really appreciate the effort. Much of your story is far more interesting than what I know of STID. I don’t agree with all of it, but it’s a hell of a good jumping off point.

The main change I would propose is with the death of Chekov. Kirk has to learn there are consequences of his command, and that he must make sacrifices and unpopular decisions. Which is why I don’t understand why Kirk is the one who dies. Yes the roles are reversed from the sacrifice Spock was willing to make in the beginning, but Kirk saves him. It’s still the Kobayashi Maru — Kirk has yet to face it. So Kirk basically should be forced to order Chekov to his death, like he was forced to do with Spock in the Immunity Syndrome, except in this universe things don’t always work out so pleasantly. Incorporate some bonding time earlier in the film and it’s a tragic moment. Chekov gets replaced by a woman (Marcus) balancing out the crew a little better going forward, and we’re done with Wesley Crusher 2.0. Unfortunately, killing Kirk and bringing him back to life is TV 101 stuff. They should have taught us a lesson that no one is safe.

467. Jey - May 13, 2013

@429: I absolutly have to agree with most of the points.

Above all, the film lacks of time.

One scene that really annoyed me was the one, when Kirk has a really serious talk with Harrison (some kind of tension raised), and than he jsut switched of with some one-line towards Bones, who works with the tribble. That was so irritating! and why did Bones those experiences anyway? Half of the Enterprise just blew away, and there have definitly been some heavy injured people – mustn’t he run up and down sickbay healing people?
But noooo – we don’t have any time in this movie. The whole plot is set in – uhm – 2 days and so every talking has to be while running through the floors and different scences have to be put together.
Wouldn’t it be a nice scene, if the restless Kirk (who cares for his ship and his crew) walks around the Enterprise and sees that also Bones can’t sleep, because he’s so fascinated by Harrison’s blood? And than they start talking about their worries and we have some nice character moment AND the audiences gets to know something about what’s going on. And if the story would have been set in, let’s say 2 weeks, the whole ‘magical healing’-scene would have been much more believable

(I just refer to one scene here, but you can tranfer it too a lot of scences)

And why don’t we have any log entries?

468. Michael Wright - May 13, 2013

Ive just seen the movie and I loved it. It doesnt bother me John Harrison turned out to be Khan whatsoever. I loved the modern take on the 23rd century. It felt like it was set in the future whereas previous depictions of Earth have looked futuristic. Chris Pine was breathtaking once again and his crying over Pike’s body brought me close to tears as did the exchange between Spock and the dying Kirk in the radiation chamber. My stand out momentis either Kirk mourning Pike as I’ve just mentioned or the crash of the Vengence (such a cool, bad ass ship). The only niggles I really had was I felt Carol Marcus was underused and the travel time between Earth and Kronos. I know they are five days apart in Enterprise but five minutes???

469. weeharry - May 13, 2013

I’ve now seen the movie twice, and i actually enjoyed it more on second viewing, but retain some of the issues i had on first viewing.

primarily, the choice of khan – it’s fine that they chose to use him, I just don’t think they executed their choice very well. the whole air of mystery was unnecessary because they did not give the casual viewer enough of the back story – and by that i mean they should have SHOWN us at least some element of the botany bay’s discovery rather than briefly mentioning it whilst everything whizzes past you at warp speed. BC is excellent at what he’s given to do, and he holds the screen magnificently.

we were told that this was supposed to be accessible to the casual viewer, but they then missed the opportunity to tell a more rounded story and as such I completely agree with other recent posts about the pacing, and the frustrating conclusion is also that this movie is only a couple of turns of the wheel away from being the best trek movie ever, but unfortunately, those missing elements are crucial, so it’s not.

my take would also have retained the opening and the themes it sets up, but i would have liked a subplot featuring spock (and perhaps others as necessary) aboard the uss bradbury discovering the botany bay, then taking it from there.

by no means bad, and its definitely trek – i have been completely won over by chris pine – he is the captain! i bought into his character arc, and i totally buy him as captain kirk now, and because there is a lot to love about STID I’m really hopeful that this has set us up for a trek for the ages

470. rm10019 - May 14, 2013

Saw the film at the NY Press screening and liked it but didn’t love it, as I did the 2009 film. I honestly was disappointed that they not only used Khan, but lifted as an Homage so heavily from II.

As many said all along, why give yourself such a blank canvas after 2009 just to revisit Khan, even in a different scenario.

BobOrci, I appreciate your hard work on the film, and thought the first half was really well done, but somehow after the Khan reveal the film seemed to lose its way a bit. I would be interested in the earliest construction of the film beats, to see what was there from the very ‘genesis’ of the story process.

471. Melllvar - May 14, 2013

Here’s a thought —

It has been said multiple times that the new film could be taken as an analogy of the big terror crazy that seems to have captured the attention of mainstream media in recent years;

We have John Harrison the terrorist who blows up buildings.

Funny how no one has made the comparison between the fact that, ultimately, it / he was all an inside job… a shout out to all those lovely conspiracy theorists out there!

472. Unbel1ever - May 14, 2013

This review is probably a bit too negative, but it neatly sums up everything that is wrong with Into Darkness.

BEWARE: IT CONTAINS SPOILERS!

http://badassdigest.com/2013/05/14/star-trek-into-darkness-spoiler-review/

473. So my thoughts... - May 14, 2013

I’m sorry but this film is NOT star trek. It was such a massive disappointment. I am not looking forward to any more of these news star trek films.
This opinion is after seeing the film twice at this stage, once in 3D and just there in 2D.
I spent time making up my mind, but now it has been made.
I loved peter weller and cumberbatch as actors, I felt they were marvelous. I liked the Klingon scene & the explanation that without Vulcan obviously humans would be more inclined to run riot all over the place, I had never given that thought any consideration. I felt that was smart.
I enjoyed the references. But I hated the third act. HATED IT. I feel it was an insult to what had gone before. The plot holes are unforgivable because of their massive size.

They have destroyed Spock. Destroyed him. He is more emotional then any human on-board that ship at this point.

All this film did was make me miss what has gone.
It is not Star Trek as we knew it and that upsets me.

474. Photon70 - May 14, 2013

@472 So my thoughts…

Spock basically spends the entire first act being unemotional.

He was unable to bring himself to thank Kirk for saving his life, because the act of saving his life was an ilogical choice as it broke the Prime Directive.

In the second act, Uhura confronted Spock about his carefree attitude to inpending death in the volcano.

Kirk even says to Spock about the need to acknowledge his human half.

The emotional Spock we see in the 3rd act was a culmation of all these events plus seeing his Commanding Officer die saving the ship.

It was ok for me and it was great to see Spock loose his cool and let his human half surface. Damn right KAHNNNNNNN!

The movie wasn’t without its faults and for that, I would go so far as to say the creative team tried way too hard to please the fans.

475. J - May 15, 2013

So… Are the “Countdown to Darkness” comics of any relevance to the plot of the actual movie? What do you think? Frankly, I don’t see it.

476. rm10019 - May 15, 2013

Has anyone coined the phrase KINO yet? Khan In Name Only is not Khan to this fan’s satisfaction.

Khan was not just a warrior, but a ruller, a Prince with power over millions.

477. rm10019 - May 15, 2013

PS I was really hoping for a post-credit scene revealing that John Harrison was not really Khan after all, showing another tube with young Mr. Montalban cg’d into a cry tube at the other end of the room in a corner.

Someone please work that scene up for me an post on YouTube :)

478. Anthony Pascale - May 15, 2013

closing….continue discussion in new open thread

http://trekmovie.com/?p=35462

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