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Into Darkness Second Week + Polls May 28, 2013

by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

stid_strip_5
Vote and chat about Star Trek Into Darkness during the second week of US/Canadian release in this sticky open thread.

 

Sticky 5: Into Darkness Second USA/Canada Week

Opening week is behind us, and Star Trek Into Darkness is now entering its second week (domestically). Fans continue to buzz about the movie so once again we have a special sticky open thread for opening week.

TrekMovie.com has already posted a review and now it is your chance. TrekMovie has created a new fan reviews page for Into Darkness.

 

Previous Into Darkness Spoiler Discussion Threads

May 20 – US Opening week

May 17 – Open Weekend

May 15 – Domestic Fan Sneak Open Day

May 8 – Early Countries Open Day

 

POLLS

Here are our current polls for those who have seen Into Darkness, including a new one on what the movie needed more of (if anything).

[poll id="720"]

[poll id="719"]

[poll id="718"]

[poll id="716"]

DISCUSS STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS (WITH ANY SPOILERS)

Feel free to chat about the movie in the comments section below, including discussing any spoilers.

 

 

WARNING: This open thread is for people who have seen the movie. If you haven’t seen the movie you really shouldn’t be reading this as you are sure to get spoiled.

 

NOTE: The usual rules of Internet forum decorum apply (keep it family friendly, no flaming, trolling, being annoying, etc).

Comments

1. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - May 28, 2013

Given all the negative comments we get here from some folks, it is heartening to see that the “silent majority” of Star Trek fans — a huge 68% — think this is either a great Trek movie or the best Trek movie.

Enough said!

2. Phil - May 28, 2013

Gonna have to go see it next weekend…

3. DggJag - May 28, 2013

I have now seen it four times. While I doubt I will see it again in the theater, GIhave pre ordered the Blu Ray from Amazon.

4. Startrekfangirl - May 28, 2013

Now that I’ve seen it twice, the things that bugged me the first time–lifting the dialogue from TWOK, for instance–didn’t bother me nearly as much. I predicted that longtime fans would express more disappointment than people new to the franchise, and so far that has proven true with my friends. Newbies or people not so geeky that they can recite dialogue from TWOK didn’t mind the parallels to TWOK or the fact that the villain was Khan. Those of us who are so familiar with canon that we CAN recite the dialogue might have been disappointed because we KNEW how the plot was going to unfold as soon as we realized Khan was the villain.

At any rate, I recommend anyone who was disappointed in the movie to give it a second look. It’s so quickly paced that it’s hard to catch everything the first tine through.

5. MJ - May 28, 2013

I have seen it now 3 times. i like it more every-time I see it. Great Trek movie, if not quite as perfect as Trek 09.

6. Ahmed - May 28, 2013

@1. Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle

So, you categorize any criticism of the movie as “negative comment” or what ?

7. MJ - May 28, 2013

Ahmed,

I think he primarily means that certain dude here, who I and many others now refuse to address directly, who has posted probably up towards 500 times on his personal issues with STID in the past two weeks.

8. Mark - May 28, 2013

I read an article when The Bible miniseries came out earlier this year about how the biggest obstacle it faced wasn’t atheists or an immoral culture, but Christians! Many weren’t happy about this story being excluded or being changed to suit other purposes, things looking the way they did, etc. The writer surmised that the Bible stories were so personal to so many, there was just no way everyone would be pleased with the final product. After watching the first episode, I came to this conclusion: The Bible miniseries was what was produced, and though I would have done it differently, I appreciated what they did for what it was.

Having followed these post now that the movie has come out, I realize Star Trek fans are the same way with Into Darkness. Some hate it because its not the way they would have done it. Some can’t get over changes and the lifting of certain story elements from a certain past movie. Though I would have done it differently, I appreciated it for what it was and thoroughly enjoyed it– in fact I probably enjoyed it more the second time around! I’m glad its making the money it is and hope they get the third file out in 3 years.

9. Captain, USS Northstar - May 28, 2013

What did STID need more of? Time! I could have sat through 30 additional minutes or more — it was that good.

Like MJ (5), I have seen it three times and I love it more every time I see it.

10. MJ - May 28, 2013

And I think we are now realizing just how great Trek 2009 was. If Trek 2009 had never come out, people would be appreciating this new movie so much more.

As Trek Fans, we may have to face the possibility that TWOK and Trek 2009 may never be surpassed in any future Trek movies. Those movies are the Gold Standard for Star Trek.

11. Silvereyes - May 28, 2013

MJ, gotta hand it to you, you have been right about khan since the beginning (relatively speaking)… And all this because Orci spelled something with a K when it should have taken a C!

12. mhansen0207 - May 28, 2013

10.

I do think you’re right, but I don’t know. Speaking from my own perspective, I REALLY REALLY love Into Darkness. So much so that at first I grappled on whether I like 2009 or Into Darkness better.

For me, they make great companion piece movies, each bringing something unique to the table. Of course, one can have preferences, but this was a great one-two punch pair of films in my opinion. I couldn’t be happier!

13. PaulB - May 28, 2013

#10 – Well said, MJ!

14. Tiger - May 28, 2013

@10

You thought Trek 2009 was that good???

I thought it was good but nothing amazing. It had a bigger budget so it looked good but I still had problems with it and the story was just ok. In fact I place as #6! out of all Treks, right in the middle of the pact I actually rate STID higher #5 because the story was much stronger. And believe that has problems too as people cited.

I generally like the Abrams films but Im still waiting for one I can say I LOVE! Maybe it will be the next one, we’ll see.

15. MJ - May 28, 2013

@11. Thanks! That, and a trust of Anthony’s and other information….plus, yes, I got lucky to some extent! :-)

16. Ahmed - May 28, 2013

@ 10. MJ – May 28, 2013

“And I think we are now realizing just how great Trek 2009 was. If Trek 2009 had never come out, people would be appreciating this new movie so much more.”

Yeah, I like ST2009 even more now after seeing STID.
Granted, Nero is still one of the worst Star Trek villains but other than that, ST2009 was far superior in everything from the excellent intro to the characters & the music.

17. Matt Wright - May 28, 2013

“As Trek Fans, we may have to face the possibility that TWOK and Trek 2009 may never be surpassed in any future Trek movies. Those movies are the Gold Standard for Star Trek.”

I think you may be right, and I think that is why you see many people saying Trek belongs back on TV. The 2-hour movie format just can’t seem to do what we’ve all come to know and love justice.

18. Sarek of Vulcan - May 28, 2013

10 and 12

Please explain why you think ST 2009 was better than STID. While I liked ST 2009 overall, it had major plot holes and relied on the crazy bad guy story, which is hardly novel. I think STID is a much better film and much closer to the vision and philosophy of ST. STID had a solid story and strong writing.

19. MJ - May 28, 2013

@14. To each his own, but I love Trek 2009, and without many reservations.

That being said, now that the five year mission is starting, I do hope we get a shift in the plot and focus — for the next film at least, I don’t need to see Kirk on any more alchol/sex benders, and I don’t need any more revenge villains. I want “strange new worlds” in the next one, and no more rehashing of stuff from TOS.

20. CaptainJon - May 28, 2013

I’ve been thinking about some of the comments posted in last week’s poll about STID being about 9/11. I’d been thinking about some of the parallels to 9/11 myself but I don’t believe that STID is about 9/11 itself but more about the aftermath.

To draw my parallel, I think you need to look at both ST09 and STID together. Admiral Marcus states his motives stem from the destruction of Vulcan and how vulnerable the Federation seemed at the time. His actions in STID are not a reaction to the London bombing but are in fact a reaction to the destruction of Vulcan. Now those who say that STID claims that 9/11 is an inside-job have their opinions, absolutely, but I disagree with that assessment. I believe STID reflects upon the actions people take after such a horrific incident.

Marcus acted the way he did because of the destruction of Vulcan, probably the greatest attack ever raged against the Federation (including all incarnations of Trek). I think that Marcus went overboard in his reaction to the destruction of Vulcan taking a very aggressive and proactive stance to defend the Federation from any possible future attack, going as far as to try to start a war with the Klingons who had nothing to do with Vulcan’s destruction. I think STID speaks of being wary of over-reacting when something atrocious takes place. Kirk’s initial reaction to Pike’s death was to blow Khan to kingdom-come. However, he fell back on his morales (as preached by Spock & Scotty) and sought justice for Khan instead.

I think STID shows two very different reactions to awful events; the 1st is the overreaction, to follow one’s first initial gut. The 2nd is to think things through and to not seek an eye-for-an-eye but to seek appropriate justice. This is what Star Trek is about when everything is said and done; speaking to the human condition. I think that Bob Orci, Alex Kurtzman & Damon Lindelof did an excellent job capturing this truth about us, whether it was intentional or not.

If you want to say that Marcus represents Bush, go ahead. I don’t believe he does as I think that Bush did what he believed to be right. I disagreed with him and still do, but I believe he acted in the manner that he best saw fit. The same can be said of Marcus, who I believe is STID’s true antagonist…I’ll call him that instead of villain because I don’t think there’s really an all-out villain in the film.

Mr. Orci & company, I applaud you for capturing the essence of what Star Trek is about & I look forward to your next outing in 2016.

21. MJ - May 28, 2013

@17. Matt, you are right on there. And wouldn’t it be great if the move back to TV could be in the form of high-production quality limited seasons like on HBO and Showtime — 10 episodes per season with story arcs.

I’d love to see the Trek analogy to the way they do Game of Thrones.

22. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 28, 2013

@9. Captain, USS Northstar

I Agree with that sentiment absolutely! I hope (probably in vain) that JJ & company release an extended version on DVD/Bluray instead of just including a few deleted scenes in the ‘extras’.

I’ve seen the movie 8 times so far. That’s probably it for me now, until the DVD comes out, due to other commitments. I can honestly say I appreciate the movie more each time I see it.

23. Tribble Chow, adult formula. - May 28, 2013

I’d really like to see this new Enterprise kick a little butt in the next movie. I know they are starting the 5 year mission and I’d like to see them come across something new to cannon. Into Darkness was stunning visually and never let up. As a long time fan, I loved it! Yes there were times I raised the BS flag here and there from tech and cannon perspectives. But for me it didn’t make or break the movie because I was just happy to finally get my Trek fix. I wish someone would do a cutaway schematic for the big E. In the movie you see this atrium type space were you can see the decks stacked and engineering is all over the place. For the next movie I’d love to see strange new worlds and folks or other life living there. I’d like to see Kirk and crew handle first contact with one or multiple civilizations. Maybe a space battle thrown in for good measure along with more of those great visuals from ID. Once again STID……great movie!

24. Sarek of Vulcan - May 28, 2013

17 Matt Wright

I agree completely that ST belongs on TV where it can tell compelling stories on a smaller scale without the need for blockbuster action, the loss of major characters, or destruction of the ship or important planets in every episode.

I’m not so sure ST 2009 was better than ST VI or ST IV.

25. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 28, 2013

#8 ”I read an article when The Bible miniseries came out earlier this year about how the biggest obstacle it faced wasn’t atheists or an immoral culture, but Christians! Many weren’t happy about this story being excluded or being changed to suit other purposes, things looking the way they did, etc. The writer surmised that the Bible stories were so personal to so many, there was just no way everyone would be pleased with the final product. After watching the first episode, I came to this conclusion: The Bible miniseries was what was produced, and though I would have done it differently, I appreciated what they did for what it was.

Having followed these post now that the movie has come out, I realize Star Trek fans are the same way with Into Darkness. Some hate it because its not the way they would have done it. Some can’t get over changes and the lifting of certain story elements from a certain past movie. Though I would have done it differently, I appreciated it for what it was and thoroughly enjoyed it– in fact I probably enjoyed it more the second time around! I’m glad its making the money it is and hope they get the third file out in 3 years.”

You first stated that, in your observation, the problem with your miniseries reference was the people it was made for. Then, you say STID is the same way. I think that’s faulty because STID was made for TOS fans, i.e. “its people,” and it looks to me like TOS fans generally like it. Had your comparison been with, say, ST09, then I think it would have fit. Many TOS fans threw a fit over that one.

Ever watch this? http://www.theonion.com/video/trekkies-bash-new-star-trek-film-as-fun-watchable,14333/

26. MJ - May 28, 2013

CaptainJon,

I am predominantly in agreement with your opinions here on how the movie was more in regards to post-911 than 911. The one departure I would make is that Marcus is not really like Bush; rather, he is the Dick Cheney anology in the movie. The would obviously have to be an unseen President of Starfleet who enable Marcus in this future to get away with his out of control policy — that unseen President, who probably thought he was doing the right thing — that guy would be your George Bush here.

27. kmart - May 28, 2013

I really despised both movies, but while 09 was worthless, at least the second one had a few character moments that worked. Unfortunately this time out, Greenwood and Cumber made the regulars look like performers in a high school skit.

The lip-service to war w/o justification is so feeble as to be offensive — it’d've been better if we’d seen Marcus mock-up a fake klingon cruiser and then crash it into an Earth city to get support for his war, which would have had resonances for the real world while also calling up some of the best elements of the greatest of TREK novels, THE FINAL REFLECTION.

Kirk’s moron response about the natives seeing the ship certainly belies the notion put forth in 09 about him being some kind of genius, because his attitude is at a total remove from anyone with a measure of intelligence. In their effort to have him evolved into recognizable Kirk, they decided to throw away their newly-made-up stuff.

But if I went through all of my objections to this movie, I’d be writing for HOURS.

28. MJ - May 28, 2013

@26. I meant to say, “President of the Federation”

29. ol pointy ears - May 28, 2013

Hey All;

I am a life long star trek fan (spin-offs n’ all) , etc.

The Trek into the Dark was a good/ok movie for what it is/was
great special effects, nice music, good diversity of environments = creative thinking – but…

Where was the mystery and clues to think about? Too much just telling us everything.

Why no cliff-hangovers…
cliff hangers? (will Kirk Live?, what will become of Khan and his 72 augments?, what will be the design of the fixed up uss ent?, etc.).

Does it really make any sense to say this is the same characters with a different time-line? Spock was supposed to serve under Pike for 10-13 yrs. before Kirk was Captain so how old are all the main characters supposed to have been by the time they were all together and how close or far away are they now from that?

Same for meeting off with Khan both times. Did into Darkness put st 2 t wrth of kn as the first TOS ep space seed?

If the 5 year mission didn’t start yet then why did Enterprise go to the Klingon Qonos planet?

Does it really make any sense to say this is entirely a mirror alternate reality dimension universe with Prime Nimoy Spock acting like it is all “recognizable”?

I understand the need for freedom and a fresh start but why not just say Prime Spk Nimoy went into this alternate parellel mirror universe.

Story – wise…

ST 2009
Better for Nero to learn that he had destroyed the wrong Vulcan for revenge in this other reality not his origin. Instead of same old “Fight till the bitter Bad guy end” Nero could have broken down psychologicaly. Guilt and shame.

ST 2013
Better for Khan and his 72 augments to have fled in the damaged Vengence. Slowly waking up his people Khan could have vowed that he would be back to finish his fight with Fed-Star Fleet Earth, etc. …and exit into unknown alien space. Perhaps he would meet the Borg. Imagine augment borg.

Lastly although I like any/all star trek as opposed to nun…

I still do not get Engineering. At all. What is what now?

So question is …
will prime spk nmy just say in next movie that this is not his origin universe reality or will Temperal time line star fleet fix the divergence and put things back…like Vulcan. Come on writers…no Vulcan?!

Just get Nmy Prime Rib Spock to say this is a different reality and I do not know how things are supposed to be here. “Any Thing Goes”.

No more Cannon thinking and free to do whatever.

Go for it.

…p.s.-

as for the comics
How bought new adventures for the Crew of USS Ent. What if a different ship got their missions from TOS show and Ent got different space to explore. Instead of similar but not that different.

Star Trek is better as a weekly TV show.

Love the little space ship toys.

Pre-Te-Nama.

30. MJ - May 28, 2013

@26. “Kirk’s moron response about the natives seeing the ship certainly belies the notion put forth in 09 about him being some kind of genius, because his attitude is at a total remove from anyone with a measure of intelligence. In their effort to have him evolved into recognizable Kirk, they decided to throw away their newly-made-up stuff.”

I think you missed the whole point this. He is immature, cavalier, even read to make integrity compromises, and certainly “not ready for the chair”, and is not “his father’s son” as he was in the original timeline. After the experience, of course he would no longer have that attitude.

His growth was part of the movie — we were watching it happen before our eyes. That is the point here!

31. Sarek of Vulcan - May 28, 2013

20 CaptainJon

I think you have written a brilliant analysis of STID, except for your statement that Adm. Marcus was not a villain. He wanted to start a war of aggression and was willing to kill anyone who disagreed with him or who tried to expose him, including the Enterprise and her entire crew! He tossed aside the rule of law and the best traditions of Starfleet and the Federation because he was so sure he was right.

The greatest villains in history think what they have done “is the right thing.” Not only do most villains say they are doing the right thing, but they actually believe it, which makes things even more tragic. (George Bush included.)

32. Paul - May 28, 2013

Yea, it was a good movie and all that. Maybe a tad complicated for a casual non-trekkie viewer, but certainly likable.

By the way:

“336. Paul – September 14, 2010
To all Khan opponents: Khan doesn’t have to be a villain. He can be AN ALLY. This is an alternate universe, don’t forget that. :-)”

I should totally start writing story ideas for Paramount. :-P

33. Paul - May 28, 2013

Also, they should’ve kept Kirk dead. Just sayin’.

34. endeavour crew - May 28, 2013

boborci,

If you could make the ultimate ST movie what TOS episode would it be from or would you personally do something never seen before????

Didn’t know you had a beagle! My wife looked up beagle research (we have 2 German Shephards) and was appalled (as I was) at the number of companies that conduct tests on them because they are so gentle and easy to manipulate……………..very sad.

Anyways I just watched some old TOS movies-ST V…..etc…..
and while they were TREK, they were so CHEEEEEESY………not totally in a good way and……………it gave me good perspective on STID.., it was a GREAT movie………….

Applause to you and everyone involved…………….

35. MJ - May 28, 2013

@31 Sarek of Vulcan,

Marcus was a villain, but a villain with a self-consisted rules that at the surface would seem to support good. Fore me, who brought to mind the character of General Scott, played by Burt Lancaster, in Seven Days in May — spookingly patriot to the level where he loses all sense of morals that would normally support his goals.

36. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - May 28, 2013

Awesome conversations here, everyone. It’s so refreshing that a certain person is taking the night off here for a change.

37. Ahmed - May 28, 2013

How about for the 50th anniversary in 2016, they bring in some of the prime universe characters, not as cameo, but as part of an epic story that span both universes.

oh & bring in new writers as well, people who can actually come up with an original exciting Trek story

38. Jonboc - May 28, 2013

Something I’ve been asking myself is, exactly what kind of organization is Starfleet? Part government? Part civilian? Some strange hybrid? Obviously a vehicle of exploration and military purpose. But the way Scotty can just up and hand in his resignation and head to the bar…without consequence… is very strange…yet it has precedence in the original series. In The Apple, Kirk actually “fires” Scotty after using the threat of being fired as a way to motivate the engineer. You just don’t “fire” someone in the military. Strange indeed.

39. MJ - May 28, 2013

It’s weird how in this movie McCoy was all there for jokes mainly, but Scotty was so much more serious. Not that I didn’t like the new take on Scotty (Pegg is a better actor than I thought), but McCoy didn’t really have a great role in this movie other than humor relief.

40. CaptainJon - May 28, 2013

MJ

Very interesting point that I hadn’t considered.

Sarek of Vulcan,

The more I’ve thought about it since posting, the more I have come to realize that Marcus is indeed a villain, but truly in the tragic sense. His heart was in the right place but the way in which he went about trying to better the Federation was seriously flawed. I was incorrect in my original posting to say that he’s not a villain.

BTW, thanks!

41. Bob Dahlia - May 28, 2013

“They should’ve kept Kirk dead” If that happened, what would the next movie be about? Star Trek III: The Search for Kirk. No, I’m very happy Kirk is alive and well. Speaking of Kirk’s character arc, did anyone notice “Punch it” becomes “Take us out” at the end.

42. CaptainJon - May 28, 2013

@ endeavour crew,

I’m personally in favor of a cross between “The Doomsday Machine” & “Errand of Mercy” as I posted in last week’s thread. The planet-killer destroys both Federation & Klingon outposts, triggering a war but when everyone realizes what’s going on, they have to work together.

Personally, I think it would make for some awesome space battles and the cooperation despite all differences is in true Trek form!

43. David - May 28, 2013

The Problem with this movie and any movie is they are 2 short compared to a TV series, Star Trek is meant for tv and weekly stories and then u can have your character development, etc. I enjoyed the movie for what it was, my problem is how long do u go with this crew. 1 more movie is what we are going to get from this team. Can you see them doing even 7 movies like fast and furious. Its a limited tease and in the end we are going to have 3 movies and then what. Star wars now is doing what Star Trek should have done, multiple movies in different eras, new cartoon show. Star Trek fans get a comic book and a movie every 4 years.

44. Curious Cadet - May 28, 2013

@38. Jonboc,
“In The Apple, Kirk actually “fires” Scotty after using the threat of being fired as a way to motivate the engineer. You just don’t “fire” someone in the military.”

I believe that was a joke. Albeit a sardonic one.

But you’re right, if an officer refuses your direct order, then I believe you relieve him of his duties and throw him in the brig for insubordination. I don’t believe he gets to resign at that point.

45. MJ - May 28, 2013

Starfleet operates more like those exploration ships from the 19th century — military ranks, but scientific and civilian type staff and rules as well.

It’s a hybrid organization.

46. MJ - May 28, 2013

@43. Not seven movies. But I certainly could see the re-upping all the cast for 2 more movies. I think 5 movies will likely be made.

If the movies keep making towards $400M (and this one still will, thanks to he international box office), then they will make more than 3 movies — you can take that to the bank.

And if they make five movies, look for Khan to return in movie 5.

47. Phil - May 28, 2013

@44. Yeah, in hindsight, relieved would have been a much better word.

48. mikejohnson - May 28, 2013

@43

Hey, what’s wrong with a comic book?? ;)

SPEAKING OF WHICH. Issue #21 comes out tomorrow in print & digitally. It picks up where STID ends. Hope everybody checks it out. Many cool things on the way.

Mike J.

49. Phil - May 28, 2013

@33. Agreed. Would have solved a lot of problems, and opened up this universe to new exploration.

Then again, I’m in the minority that Spock should have stayed dead at the end of WOK…

50. kmart - May 28, 2013

30,
His growth is something that should have happened well before this, in ANY timeline. The arbitrary arc they put him through works fine if you are doing this as Joseph Campbell mythology (as in SW), but doesn’t work here at all.

That you’d even allow somebody into Starfleet with the attitude he shows here is absurd. And again, he is supposed to be somebody who is very intelligent in this timeline/reality. What, they don’t teach anthropology at Starfleet? (and all the arguments about Nero’s incursion changing everything can’t hold up well either, because if there was that much change, the PD would have been history too.)

You’ve got so much in the way of credibility issues with this universe to start wtih that it is almost easier for me to believe it will simply implode of its own accord, as in it just doesn’t seem viable, though I guess that is the fault of the writers. A starfleet where according to Pike you can make captain in eight years? Where you ‘enlist’? A place that until now really did take the best of the best of the best but now has cupcake-level morons?

But what else should I expect from the abramsreality of an engineering section made up of modern-era fittings and a bridge that you’d need sunglasses in just to ATTEMPT to read your board, what with all the glare and lights? Where the moon is somehow 40,000 miles closer to Earth than it is now, and that your ship can ‘fall’ to Earth from lunarspace in very little time at all, and that gravity will INCREASE as you drop (as opposed to the free-fall you’d be in with even a short plunge in an aircraft or a runaway elevator)?

Nothing works in a vaguely credible fashion, and there isn’t anything compelling going on to distract away from these failings and to allow for a decent suspension of disbelief.

51. Curious Cadet - May 28, 2013

@48 mike johnson,

Looking forward to it Mike.

By the way, how are you guys viewing issues #1 & 2 now that Kirk has basically invalidated them by saying no one under his command has ever been killed?

52. mikejohnson - May 28, 2013

@ 29

Over the next year the comic will have a mix of brand new stories/worlds, and stories that show how some original series concepts/encounters are different in the new timeline, because that’s too fun & interesting not to explore. But no straight-up episode re-tellings.

Quick poll: what original series things would folks like to the Pine crew encounter in the comics?

53. HubcapDave - May 28, 2013

Personally, I’m ready for Star Trek: Bring On The Klingons in 2016!

A full-on slug-fest with the Klingons was never done in TOS, and not seen until DS9.

54. kmart - May 28, 2013

35,
The 7 DAYS IN MAY analogy is fine, but also points up this thing’s shortcomings even more effectively, since MAY is a stupendously well-directed and written film that dares to have its big showdown in a 2-handed dialog scene. Marcus, however he was intended, comes off as a 20 times removed xerox from James Matoon Scott, and is already fading from memory.

What’s funny is that the acorn of a decent movie is in here … don’t laugh, but if you look at UNDER SIEGE with Tommy Lee Jones’ character, that is close to what you could have had with Cumberbatch. There’s some depth and complexity (only time in a Segal movie) and a real sense that this is a real antagonist and not just ‘the baddie.’

STiD even confuses this issue, as my wife (not a trek fan, but incensed enough by the movie to turn to me — while Kirk was kicking deathstar reactor to get it started — and stated this was NOT Trek) and I both felt that there was nothing on film to indicate Khan would turn on them until he himself was turned upon by Kirk. Then again, that may just be the actor delivering a multi-tiered portrayal that was more sophisticated than the writing and performing around him, so there was more to infer from his work than anyone else’s.

55. mikejohnson - May 28, 2013

@ 52

“Like to see the Pine crew encounter” I mean.

56. Phil - May 28, 2013

@52. Command School?

57. HubcapDave - May 28, 2013

@52

Space hippies!

Just kidding. How about Spectre Of The Gun?

58. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 28, 2013

@52. mikejohnson

Horta, Organians, Trelane, Guardian of Forever, Doomsday Machine…

59. HubcapDave - May 28, 2013

@52

Ooooh, I second Doomsday Machine!

60. HubcapDave - May 28, 2013

@52

If you do Trelane, could you make it canon that he is a member off the Q Continuum?

61. Phil - May 28, 2013

@52. Seriously, how about a unique story instead of a ‘Greatest Hits’ reel…we see how well that’s working out with STID….

62. mikejohnson - May 28, 2013

@51

Good catch, and a good question that gets to the tricky territory of lining things up on paper and film. Sometimes it works great (we did the origin of Bones’ dead Tribble from the movie, months ago in the comic) other times there are inevitably contradictions and you just hope there’s wiggle room for those contradictions to make sense.

In the scene you mention, I reconcile it as Kirk being adamant that no crew members were lost as a result of HIS personal mistakes. Whereas Gary died (or did he ;) because of something out of Kirk’s control. Pike is hammering Kirk about his recklessness and poor decision-making, so Kirk’s firing back that nobody’s died as a result of his mistakes, which is technically true of Gary.

63. Paul - May 28, 2013

Really we need to see a good slugfest between Klingons in the federation

64. Phobos in Montreal - May 28, 2013

I was sitting in the IMAX tonight for the 22h showtime (which was 80% full — pretty amazing). I saw the reply I requested from boborci. I was all happy. I just arrived home and trekmovie.com started a new thread, erasing the post I wanted to print.

:-(

Is there an archive of the posts?

65. Phil - May 28, 2013

Really? This universe needs to fight the war the prime universe avoided (until DS9)? I don’t want to see that at all….

66. Dhan - May 28, 2013

More something not listed: a plot that made sense and a Khan who was the right ethnicity (ie: not white British guy)

67. mikejohnson - May 28, 2013

Great suggestions above!

I love Doomsday M. Also want to show more Starfleet ships, like the Constellation, and Bradbury.

@ 59: I’ll see what I can do. :) Would also be fun to see De Lancie Q meet Pine crew. Comics let us do crazy stuff like that.

@ 60: Like I said it’ll be a mix of totally new stories & familiar faces/places in a new light. And I love STID, so I find your logic faulty :)

68. MJ - May 28, 2013

@50 “His growth is something that should have happened well before this, in ANY timeline.”

Wow? You seem totally naive to how a young Kirk raised and educated by a Starfleet father would have matured versus a young Kirk raised as a latchkey kid with an a-hole stepfather, and no real mentors.

Your view denies social realities. Just talk to someone who grew up in this sort of situation, and who had to mature later than most boys, and you will then figure out who this works in boys maturing to men in the real world.

69. DJT - May 28, 2013

I’ve seen it 3 times.The 1st time I saw it, I *loved* it – with one or two WTF moments here and there. On 2nd viewing, I was able to get past all the eye candy and examine the plot; whereby things no longer made sense. My reaction upon 3rd viewing was “what * * happened?!”. Now I saw that with a heavy heart, because I genuinely like the writers. They interact with us fans when they can and I appreciate that. Even though I have my gripes, I will purchase the Blu-ray in 3d, just because I love Star Trek. (Damn you, Paramount!).

70. MJ - May 28, 2013

Bring on V’ger!!!

(just kidding)

71. Philip - May 28, 2013

Doomsday Machine would absolutely ROCK, especially if you cast someone to play Commodore Decker….

I’d launch start it off with war about to break out on both sides, and then planets on both sides of the neutral zone start going bye bye.

This leads to both sides wondering if the other has created some sort of “doomsday” genesis type device. Maybe even throw in the Romulans into this mix as well.

Instead of killing the device, it gets stashed away for use against the Borg threat much later.

So many possibilities with this type of storyline. Maybe cast Philip Seymour Hoffman as Commodore Decker. Holy crap the acting would be sick with him playing that kind of character eh? Imagine him unshaved for days, barking out commands, getting more paranoid as he pleads with Kirk it isn’t the Klingons, but something from another universe.

72. Phobos in Montreal - May 28, 2013

Nevermind. I retrieved a copy of the old thread from my Z10.
________________________________________________

To boborci,

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it. You made my day. :-)

I don’t know what I want to see in the next movie. ST09 was great and STID is outright spectacular. I’m confident whatever you and your team come up with will be excellent.

73. mikejohnson - May 28, 2013

@69

We actually had V’Ger show up in the Nero mini in ’09. I love that crazy space probe! :)

74. CaptainJon - May 28, 2013

In my original suggestion to boborci in last week’s thread, I said that you could include the Organians. I also suggested that instead of using the Constellation to destroy the planet-killer, Kirk uses the Enterprise before the planet-killer can destroy Qo’NoS. Seeing Kirk’s selflessness to save his enemy, the Organians save him and peace talks between the Klingons and Federation begin.

My original post is #1591 in last week’s STID discussion thread if you want to check it out.

I agree with PSH as Decker & with Abrams producing, the connection is already there from M:I3!

75. Phobos in Montreal - May 28, 2013

To everyone,

Tonight I noticed a few new things.
1) Seems to me the music on Qo’Nos is the same from the TOS ep. with the time gate. Have you guys noticed this?

2) In sick bay Khan tells Spock he can’t break a rule let alone bone. I think the writers intentionally added the sound of bone breaking in the Spock vs Khan fight where Spock seemingly break’s Khan arm.

76. HubcapDave - May 28, 2013

Well, we’re talking more the comics for the Doomsday Machine, though I’d like PSH as Decker. he’d have to get in a little better shape to be believable as a starship captain though…..

77. Curious Cadet - May 28, 2013

61. mikejohnson,
“Pike is hammering Kirk about his recklessness and poor decision-making, so Kirk’s firing back that nobody’s died as a result of his mistakes, which is technically true of Gary.”

I’ll buy that, and given Kirk’s mindset at that point in the movie, exactly how he might think too … A that takes care of Kelso, and Latimer in Galileo 7 … Because Kirk is not directly responsible. Perfect.

Love to see “The Guardian of Forever” and how that might play out in the new universe where QM MWI are in play …

78. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 28, 2013

@61. mikejohnson
@76. Curious Cadet

Yes, given Kirk’s mindset at that point, I’ll buy the explanation as well. Canon is preserved in this instance ;-)

79. Capt Clay Crash - May 28, 2013

Disappointed with the storyline. Khan? Really? I was hoping for something more original, like the origins of Section 31 (which I nailed before the film came out). It bordered on corny when Kirk was in the radiation and Spock was outside.

BUT it was presented with excellence. A fun and exciting movie. I heartily recommend it and will see it again and get it on Blu-ray later.

I hope future JJ Abrams’ Treks don’t try to follow established Trek canon so tightly.

Q: Why did McCoy need Khan’s blood to revitalize Kirk? Why not just take some blood from one of the frozen Khan-sters?

80. CaptainJon - May 28, 2013

75. HubcapDave

I recognize that, but I honestly think that “Doomsday Machine” would work soooo well on the big screen & would present some great possibilities, especially if mixed with the growing Klingon threat!

81. CaptainJon - May 28, 2013

78. Capt Clay Crash

A: It was established earlier in the movie by McCoy that thawing the Augments was a delicate and length procedure. Their best bet was to capture Khan who was already thawed out.

82. Other Guy - May 28, 2013

Next Trek?

Just forget all the other Trek storylines and create something new for Trek fans.

83. Other Guy - May 28, 2013

A: It was established earlier in the movie by McCoy that thawing the Augments was a delicate and length procedure.

Hmmm. Just like in Space Seed with Khan?

Now, can you see what happens when you mix old and new Trek?

84. Phobos in Montreal - May 28, 2013

@78 Capt Clay Crash

In the movie Bones says that if they don’t use the proper awakening sequence that they risk killing the dormant augments.
CaptainJon beat me to the answer though I see.

Ask more questions. After 5 trips to the IMAX I have pretty much memorized the movie. :-D

85. mikejohnson - May 28, 2013

@ 61
Glad that works for you. You’re right about Galileo 7 too. Agreed on Guardian!

86. mikejohnson - May 28, 2013

@77
Phew! :)

87. Trekkiegal63 - May 28, 2013

#1756. LogicalLeopard:

Hey LogicalLeopard, didn’t get a chance to respond to you in that other thread before it got shut down so thought I’d do it here…

I was sitting in the theater for a portion of the movie going, “Boy, I could do without some of this Spock/Uhura relationship garbage now *LOL* And I was thinking about you in the theatre, and how my views have skewed regarding women in the movies. *LOL*

Awwww. You so made my day with that. Best compliment ever.

All the same however, at this point, I would like to see Uhura’s character evolve independently of Spock, because it was too tied up with him in this movie. Maybe some chair time like Sulu got this time around, which I thoroughly enjoyed as well.

Couldn’t agree more. Not even if I tried. On both fronts, would love to see more Uhura character development independently of Spock, and agree that her identity was far too tied up with him in this movie. And I admit I got nostalgic seeing Sulu in the chair – took me right back to seeing him in action in ST6, learned from the best, he did. It would be incredible to see Uhura do the same, especially in light of the sexism that was inherent in “Turnabout Intruder”. It would be beyond excellent to see a non-enemy (yes, I realize the Romulan commander in “Enterprise Incident” was a woman) female in the big seat without Pike’s ‘never get used to’ side commentary/sixties disclaimer. And it would go heads and tails into showing that our current execs heard the pointed replies by numerous critics on STID being a distinct step back for female character development and responded accordingly, in good faith.

And the Alice Eve underwear scene was….well, I didn’t think it could actually be WORSE than what was portrayed in the trailer, but it kinda was *LOL* At least in the trailer, we could say, “Well, I hope there’s more to it.” Nope. Nothing else to it.

*sigh* Yup. Pretty much this. Again, agree. Fervently so.

Those are probably unclear ramblings, but those were my general thoughts on it.

Awesome thoughts! :)

88. Trekkiegal63 - May 28, 2013

#57 and #58:

I third the “Doomsday Machine” request!

89. Marja who loves most of the ST comics so far! - May 28, 2013

#9 Northstar – I agree. I know shorter movies = more showings = more ticket sales, so my hope springs eternal that they will INSERT all scenes they had to cut to stay w/in the time limit. Wouldn’t this increase anticipation of DVD release!

#18 Sarek – I agree. Not sure why so many folk say 09 was a greater film – simplistic villain & a bit less character development. Though I did love the Vulcan themes and music for Spock and Sarek.

#42 Cap’n Jon Those are two of my fave episodes. But I’d also love to see a new civilization …

MJ – #45 – having witnessed both, I see Starfleet as kind of a cross between NOAA and the Coast Guard. The first [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration] I see as the scientific arm, in which Starfleet employs scientists to map the galaxy and do planetary surveys liaising with the Science Officer and staff; the CG part would be the “peacekeeping and humanitarian” side, acting with military authority, defending Fed sovereignty, and search and rescue. [This latter I would love to see by the way, very exciting and rewarding.] #46 – I would LOVE to see movies 4 and 5, but the actors will cost a LOT more to hire – Saldana is a “rising” major star and Pine looks to break out soon too [I predict he's the next Harrison Ford]. Quinto is probably more interested in the stage these days but might welcome the $$ to fund more independent films for his production company. Urban is busy with TV series and will prob make plenty of $$ in other movies too

OK Mike Johnson,

Here are some of my fave episodes/ideas for comics:

- Metamorphosis – with the Companion. Great story of a truly alien-seeming relationship.
- Ultimate Computer – what if AU Daystrom is his father’s son, trying desperately to outdo Dad?
- Spock and Kirk spying on the Romulans and Spock interacting with the female Romulan Commander – what is his reaction to her charms, what’s her reaction to him, and what is Uhura’s reaction to the situation [extra points if she doesn't act like a jealous schoolgirl, but is keeping a stiff upper lip and being professional about it].
- Doomsday Machine – if it’s not the next movie that is
- Errand of Mercy – extremely advanced race humbles warlike impulses perhaps in Roms/Feds this time. Chance to introduce an alien civilization with cool aliens as done in the Robert April issues.
- Retell the Roger Korby story – he could be inventor of GATT 5000 guy [on the Bridge, with the cool voice and blue interface in the back of his skull] – a bionic system for physically compromised humans – and his next model goes terribly wrong
- Ferengi? Wouldn’t it be fun to see Kirk Spock McCoy and Uhura fake these guys out!
- The Horta – misunderstood strange alien
- JOURNEY TO BABEL – a real opportunity for your talented alien creators and another great story by DC Fontana
- A new improved “Bread and Circuses”
- Corbomite Maneuver: a “Kirk fakes ‘em out!” episode
- This Side of Paradise – Indolence v/ the quality of industry – this time the perenially busy and determined McCoy or Uhura could be the one with a past romance
- A Piece of the Action – McCoy and Kirk have no prob fitting in, but Spock? comic possibilities, plus another great “Kirk fakes ‘em out!” episode.
- Man Trap – Enterprise witnesses the end of a civilization with a mystery beforehand
- Charlie X – a heartbreaking story
- CONSCIENCE OF THE KING – especially if Kirk spent time as a kid on Tarsus IV and was witness to the genocide.
- Naked Time – only Spock’s immune this go-round. BRING BACK KEVIN RILEY! :)
-

90. Dave Oakes - May 28, 2013

Say what you want about Into Darkness but there is no chance that this is the worst Star Trek movie.

Not while Search For Spock, Insurrection and Final Frontier exist.

And even those three are still better than the Star Wars prequels.

91. Karen - May 28, 2013

@8 Mark

Wow, beautifully put, Mark. I think that’s precisely the dilemma the Trek team is facing.

And while I’ve certainly been critical of the film, from one perspective, I really do think on balance that it rocks and I very much look forward to the next one.

Also? I think the aliens in the opening sequence are utterly spectacular. Beautiful design, wonderful execution. Kudos to all involved.

92. Phobos in Montreal - May 29, 2013

What is the name of the race of white aliens in the beginning of the movie?
The volcano scene is top notch. I mean come on, how many times do we get to see inside a volcano in IMAX 3D.

The movie is awesome and Im going back again.

93. Phobos in Montreal - May 29, 2013

Even the scenes with Scotty near Jupiter. I felt like it was actually in space looking at Jupiter.

94. Disinvited - May 29, 2013

Curious Cadet,

You are welcome for the thanks on my GENERATIONS time travel observations.

95. chrisfawkes.com - May 29, 2013

Worldwide after 12 days = Worldwide: $258,113,879
Srce= Box Office MoJo

Not too bad.

Despite a couple of painful moments (Spock screaming Khaaaaaaan) mainly the film was pretty good.

The other thing I think is terribly dicky and pandering to the smallest number of uber extreme fanboys is the BullSh%%^T line that Khan was the most dangerous adversary the Enterprise ever faced.

Khan was one adversary and only took advantage because Kirk got caught off guard. Under normal circumstances he would never have stood a chance.

I do think the writers made a huge mistake in thinking that most of the fans let alone the general public were somehow gagging for the return of Khan.

I like the film despite Khan being in it.

96. Photon70 - May 29, 2013

Well, after 3rd weekend in Australia, STiD has grossed more than ST09 did in its entire run withou adjusting for inflation.

ST09 entire Australian box office was $12,650,526.

STiD is now at $12,729,903 and counting after 3 weekends.

http://www.urbancinefile.com.au/home/boxoffice.asp

97. Elias Javalis - May 29, 2013

I am confident trek will hold its ground at the b.o. One and a half month left…Cant wait!

98. chrisfawkes.com - May 29, 2013

I have seen it four times. Will get it when it is out on blu-ray now.

The things that did work well for me was the journey of the Kirk/Spock relationship.

99. chrisfawkes.com - May 29, 2013

That is interesting photon70. I was wondering how it was doing here.

There would have been 60 people when I saw the midnight session, 15 people last night on the Tuesday session and pretty much empty on the two session I have seen in between.

Not sure why that has been but it was getting me worried.

100. Buzz Cagney - May 29, 2013

#11 no, no, MJ did crumble in the weeks prior to release about it being Khan. After weeks and months of sticking to his guns his resolve did take a knock. Sorry, MJ, but it did my friend. :)

In fairness you went from it ‘being Khan’ to ‘Khan being involved somewhere ‘ so you didn’t crumble too far.
Given the pounding that you got off some of us on here that you stuck to it at all was quite impressive. lol

I’m with you about the Borg next time. Its a nailed on cert.

101. Luuk1983 - May 29, 2013

I enjoyed into Darkness as an action movie, but like many action movies, there is too much action for the sake of showing action which doesn’t make sense or is just for showing beautiful images. And I must say the images are gorgeous!
I think the first half of the movie starts strong. The adversary is still unknown, many questions are asked but not yet answered. But the second half of the movie doesn’t deliver. In general I think it’s mostly very lazy writing in combination of absurd action. Nothing has any consequence. Our heroes put themselves in danger all the time. Although I know this is true of most action movies, it’s getting ridiculous. Violate the prime directive, the most sacred rule of the federation: who cares, Kirk has his command back in a few minutes. Fix the reactor? Who cares, he’s back alive in a few minutes. Perform the most dangerous space jump? He’ll make it anyway. Just invade Qo’nos, although the Enterprise can’t warp? Doesn’t matter. Etc etc etc.

Again, I enjoyed the movie, but I really think these things are just plain stupid:
- Hide the Enterprise under water?? Come on, that’s just for showing some special effects and makes no sense at all (how did the Enterprise get there without being seen, and how were they planning to leave? Also, appareantly, spocks suit can withstand the heat of the volcano, how is it that a shuttle or the Enterprise would’nt be able to withstand the heat of the volcano? I would assume a shuttle or the Enterprise are made of something stronger than the suite)
- Beam to Qo’nos??? If beaming to the Klingon homeworld is possible we might as well stop using Starships. Also, the Enterprise is able to warp to Qo’nos in a few minutes. Distances are completely off, also it’s just plain lazy writing to make sure we can have a cool action scene om Qo’nos.
- I didn’t like the Khan / TWOK homage. Totally not needed. Finally we have a new timeline with endless possibilities, we need to reuse the old. Totally not neccesary. A few lines would have been fun, but the entire reversed death scene is lame.
- Also the entire ending, with spock fighting Khan are complete stupid. The guy just crashed a starship into a city. And it seems the Enterprise is the only ship who can find Khan, Also, we send ONE guy to go get him. What about mobilizing every starfleet officer on foot AND on verhicles inclusing the entire security staff of the Enterprise? Coordinate efforts to get him. No…instead Spock chases him on foot…alone… That’s so totally unbelievable. And ofcourse it’s not possible to beam him up.
- Saving Kirk with the blood…come on, I saw that coming the first moment Bones was experimenting with the blood. Also, like I said. Everything is without consequence. No matter how dangerous, or how many rules you break, it’s all fixed in a few minutes.
- Also, doesn’t the Enterprise have any shields? Like in ST09, every hit damages the ship severly. I can imagine the Narada being super strong in comparison, but the Vengeance is probably superiour, but not THAT much. I mean, the vengeance will probably defeat the Enterprise, but I would think the flagship would put up a fierce fight first. Not not being crippled in a few shots.
-Also everything happends so incredibly fast. You never have time to think about what you saw, it’s just hopping to the next scene. Kirk dies. Oh that’s sad…hop! next action scene. No time to think about it.

Like I said, I liked the first part of the movie best, but it slides to mediocre very fast with illogical action. In fact, in the end, I think the story is the weakest part of the movie in the end. The Special effects are great and the characters work wonderfully. Now we just need a very GOOD story.

102. James - May 29, 2013

I loved the movie, especially all the nods to previous Treks.

The domestic performance is matching Trek 09, give or take 1 million dollars or so. The foreign is waaaaay up on Trek09 though. I don’t get why so many Trekkies are down on Star Trek’s box office. Word of mouth is amazing, which is why we see such a small drop from week one figures. The movie seems to be opening strongly in China, where it’ll probably take 20-30 million by the end of the weekend.

Star Trek Into Darkness will very likely be the most successful Trek movie in history! It should earn anywhere between $400-$500 million, depending on the overseas figures. If it makes the higher end of the estimate then Trek will have shown that it has broken away from being a niche movie and should lay the way for Star Trek Into The Light to make $600-1bn in 2016.

Star Trek Lives!

103. Disinvited - May 29, 2013

Truth is stranger than fiction:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57586148/texas-baby-born-after-her-mother-was-technically-dead/

If a writer wrote that birth for their heroine/hero, nobody would have bought it.

104. mikejohnson - May 29, 2013

@88

Thanks Marja! Great suggestions.
- Daystrom. Hmmm….
- If you like Romulans, stay tuned. The story didn’t end with Nero.
- More on GATT to come.
- Would love to show Ferengi interacting with original crew.
- Corbomite is a definite possibility.
- Man Trap was actually going to be comic #1-2, but we decided on Gary instead.
- Charlie X is intriguing and perfect for comics.
- I’m still not over Data & Tasha hooking up, so anything with “Naked” in the title makes me sad.

Thanks for your support of the comics!
MJ

105. mikejohnson - May 29, 2013

@ 99

Fightin’ words!

“Hide the Enterprise under water?? Come on, that’s just for showing some special effects and makes no sense at all (how did the Enterprise get there without being seen, and how were they planning to leave?”

The Ent. submerged miles from the coast, out of sight, and was planning to leave the same way. And if you don’t think the Ent. can travel underwater, you’re underestimating 23rd-century starship tech.

“Also, appareantly, spocks suit can withstand the heat of the volcano, how is it that a shuttle or the Enterprise would’nt be able to withstand the heat of the volcano? I would assume a shuttle or the Enterprise are made of something stronger than the suite)”

- Do you know for sure the Ent. would fit in the volcano? The shuttle obviously could withstand volcano heat for a short time (we saw it in IMAX.) And Spock’s suit could withstand the heat for at least as long as we witnessed.

“- Beam to Qo’nos??? If beaming to the Klingon homeworld is possible we might as well stop using Starships. Also, the Enterprise is able to warp to Qo’nos in a few minutes. Distances are completely off, also it’s just plain lazy writing to make sure we can have a cool action scene om Qo’nos.”

You’re assuming that just because you saw Khan beam out of the dropship and beam onto Kronos (multiple spellings) a couple scenes later that it was a direct flight.

“- I didn’t like the Khan / TWOK homage. Totally not needed. Finally we have a new timeline with endless possibilities, we need to reuse the old. Totally not neccesary. A few lines would have been fun, but the entire reversed death scene is lame.”

In 1982, the hands meeting on the glass was the culmination of a lifelong friendship. In 2013, it was the confirmation of that friendship being born. Doesn’t seem lame to me.

“- Also the entire ending, with spock fighting Khan are complete stupid. The guy just crashed a starship into a city. And it seems the Enterprise is the only ship who can find Khan, Also, we send ONE guy to go get him. What about mobilizing every starfleet officer on foot AND on verhicles inclusing the entire security staff of the Enterprise? Coordinate efforts to get him. No…instead Spock chases him on foot…alone… That’s so totally unbelievable. And ofcourse it’s not possible to beam him up.”

Not sure we saw the same movie. There was no time to mobilize every Starfleet officer & vehicle. Khan was running the second the Vengeance ground to a halt. The only ones who knew Khan was even on the Vengeance – heck, the only ones who even knew what the Vengeance WAS in that moment – were on the Enterprise.

“- Saving Kirk with the blood…come on, I saw that coming the first moment Bones was experimenting with the blood. Also, like I said. Everything is without consequence. No matter how dangerous, or how many rules you break, it’s all fixed in a few minutes.”

Two weeks, actually, as Bones says. And not Khan’s blood. A synthetic compound Bones developed, as Bones says. And you don’t know if it’s really without consequence until the next movie :)

“- Also, doesn’t the Enterprise have any shields? Like in ST09, every hit damages the ship severly. I can imagine the Narada being super strong in comparison, but the Vengeance is probably superiour, but not THAT much. I mean, the vengeance will probably defeat the Enterprise, but I would think the flagship would put up a fierce fight first. Not not being crippled in a few shots.”

Please post your schematics of the Vengeance.

“-Also everything happends so incredibly fast. You never have time to think about what you saw, it’s just hopping to the next scene. Kirk dies. Oh that’s sad…hop! next action scene. No time to think about it.”

Epic life-threatening events don’t usually give you time to think about them.

In summation: just having fun debating the movie with you. LL & P!

106. Dominic - May 29, 2013

First all, I loved the movie! My only disappoint if any was the end and the villain being revealed as Khan because I really think that your John Harrison could have been a great villain on his own without having to get called Khan. This is supposed to be a compliment for the writers because I think you are perfectly able to make your own stories without having to be slaves of the old thing.
A brief comment about Spock/Uhura and their (it seems) controversial romantic relationship: when back in 2009 I watched the first movie I didn’t think much about their relationship but I recognized it as a stick of genius from the writers and I saw that many critics shared this opinion.
I have to admit that I really liked their relationship in the sequel. I even found myself liking the interactions between them more than the ones between Kirk and Spock even though the latter have more interactions.
I think that my main issue with the iconic friendship is that their story in “into darkness” carried on as if you were expecting me to have the same emotional connection to K/S that I had with their previous selfs in the original ‘Wrath of Khan’. It feels like it’s taken for granted that these people have the same connection to one another that the old characters had but they don’t. Not yet. Not saying it was intentional from the writers, I’m only explaining why I didn’t completely buy their arc from co-workers to friends.
What I hope is that in future movies their friendship will be less influenced by this constant destiny stuff and look more authentic for the current characters that you have created.
What I like about this alternate timeline device is that it makes these characters new and less predictable and I have the chance to see a younger version of the characters that we already know but at the same time I’m discovering these new people that aren’t just an aging reference to the original characters, they’re more than that. They’re your creation and they have their own rules and free will to respect and they’re ultimately more complex and, at times, more interesting than the original!

107. mrspock - May 29, 2013

Please make a sequel with Captain Archer and T´Pol… but no more with this parody of TOS !!!

Another suggesion is: Spock Prime traveles to the “Guardian of forever” and restor the Original Time Line!!!

108. Dominic - May 29, 2013

I have a question for Roberto Orci if he is reading and willing to reply.
You have a character like Spock who is half vulcan (with the innate telepathic abilities vulcans have) and he’s in a relationship with a human woman. While it makes sense that you show them kiss and share conventional human displays of affection (as he’s half human) my question is: why aren’t we seeing more “vulcan love” between them? Why you never have them share a vulcan finger kiss?
Is there a in-story reason for that or you just didn’t think about it?
It seems such a missed opportunity with an interspecies couple!

109. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 29, 2013

We don’t need the time line restored. The Prime universe is still there. In the future we may get stories (either TV or movie or comic) set in the Prime universe, the Alternate universe, the Prime Mirror universe or the Alternate Mirror universe – in any time period. The only requirement is that the story be ‘in canon’ to its universe.

I have been a TOS fan since it first aired. I also love the Alternate universe take on things. It is possible to live both.

110. Nooneimall - May 29, 2013

@103 “Two weeks, actually, as Bones says. And not Khan’s blood. A synthetic compound Bones developed, as Bones says. And you don’t know if it’s really without consequence until the next movie :)”

actually, the question whether man/politics want to conquer death when a technology to conquer death is available seems a cool moral dilemma for a future movie, mirroring genetics debate…just not sure how that fits together with a 5 year mission…maybe a problem to be solved within the crew itself? did anyone outside the crew know how K. was rescued?

111. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 29, 2013

@106. Dominic

Yes, I would also be interested in Bob Orci’s view on this.

My suspicion is that it was felt the non-trekkies wouldn’t understand what was going on… I seem to recall there was some controversy or issue around having Saavik finger kissing Spock when he underwent pon farr in ST:TSFS because of the risk the audience wouldn’t understand the significance and would burst out laughing instead. I don’t remember the details…

112. chrisfawkes.com - May 29, 2013

If they go with Borg for the next one they need to crank up the horrificness of these beings assimilating others.

No doubt they would. The Klingons for their brief appearance actually came across as intimidating. Something never really done before.

I would like to see something where as part of the assimilation process a person is stabbed in a way in which they have only minutes to live, at which point they are offered a choice between death or assimilation.

I would like to also see it where large parts of earths population do get assimilated so by the end there is a serious cost to the invasion as they have to remove or destroy those already assimilated.

And to crank up the box office dollars have them come from the future with Patrick Stewart playing locutus.

113. James McFadden - May 29, 2013

WE COULD HAVE BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH’S KHAN AND THE OTHER AUGMENTS REAWAKENED IN THE 24TH CENTURY IN ORDER TO DEVELOP AN ADVANCED BATTLE STRATEGY AGAINST THE BORG BEFORE THE COLLECTIVE HAS A CHANCE OF GETTING TO THE ALPHA QUADRANT.
BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH WOULD BE AN IDEAL ACTOR FOR PLAYING COMMANDER DATA IN THE RE-IMAGINED 24TH CENTURY.

114. James McFadden - May 29, 2013

An ideal title for the 13th feature film would be Star Trek Balance Of Power. How will the Romulans respond to tensions between the UFP and the Klingons?

115. Hat Rick - May 29, 2013

Quick comment about the movie:

This is a tremendous movie — not just a good Hollywood movie, but a great motion picture for the ages. Its themes echo the grandeur of Star Trek — in fact, not just Star Trek (as expansive as it is!) but the spirit of humanity.

I was on the phone yesterday with a friend of many years — decades — and he couldn’t wait to see the film after what I said to him about it (spoiler-free, of course)! But in fact, he didn’t need my comments to want to go — he had called specifically to tell me that we should go see it together! And he is a family man with three smart children — so we can be sure that the next generation of his will be Trek fans too!

This movie also has box office “legs,” from the looks of it. I no longer care about whether the next movie has a similar budget to this one; I have repeatedly predicted in the last few days that the next sequel’s budget would be slightly smaller (due to Paramount’s overstated expectations for STID). Regardless of box office performance (which isn’t bad, by any means!), STID has set a very high standard for Trek movies specifically and a sterling standard for motion pictures in general. This is borne out obviously by critical acclaim and audience evaluation, but no less importantly, on a personal level, by my own personal viewing of it.

In the pantheon of Star Trek movies, this movie ranks behind Star Trek: The Motion Picture in some respects, but equals it in others. It is at least the equal of TWOK except in the area of pathos, and in my opinion exceeds in most parameter the appeal of TVH, with the sole exception of the dimension of pure humor. (TVH, with its then-contemporary references and deliberately broad comic acting, remains the funniest of all Trek movies and will probably never be matched on that score.) This movie exceeds for the most part every TNG-cast movie on virtually every dimension.

Needless to say, it also outdoes ST09.

I hope to write more later on this fantastic motion picture and why it deserves every accolade it gets!

116. MSullivan - May 29, 2013

@mikejohnson

Love the comics! Wonderful writing in their own right, and all have added quite a bit to my experience of the films. Have every new-universe issue published hanging up on my bedroom wall (which is rapidly running out of space!).

I also played through the recent video game, and noticed you were thanked in the end credits. What did your role entail specifically? Likewise, at the end of the video game the Enterprise receives its orders to go to Nibiru, but at the end of “Countdown to Darkness” Kirk is given the same orders by Pike. Is there a contradiction there, or is there an explanation I’m missing?

Glad someone asked about Kirk’s line about not losing any crew; that had been bugging me for weeks. But your rationalization works for me, so I can rest easy now and accept that as the canon explanation! Thanks for coming on here and chatting!

LL&P!

117. bmar - May 29, 2013

You know I really liked STID. I think the only thing that I didn’t like was that I knew so much about it before seeing it, but that’s my fault.

I think the only things I would change about the movie are:

1. KHHHAAAAAAAN. Not the character. The yell. I don’t mind the other parts lifted from TWOK, but Spock yelling something that has become so cliched…and that was so over-acted by Shatner in the first place, just seemed silly.

2. Kirk’s Revival. Not that he came back from the dead – that’s a tried and true ST story element. It’s the way that they did it. Personally, I wouldn’t have bothered wit the tribble at all – I would have had McCoy puzzle it out and have Kirk be the guinea pig. Will this work? It’s our only hope…etc. The tribble thing seemed an awkward throwaway in the middle of a dramatic moment. There was no doubt Kirk would come back to life – it just would have been better if it had been a truly dramatic resurrection that was risky and showed some real dramatic chops from McCoy.

3. The end. Again, not that I had a problem with what the end was – it’s just how it played out. After Spock punched Khan’s lights out, it seemed that they tried to wrap up things very quickly…boom we’re in the hospital room, boom we’re one year later, boom off they go on the 5 year mission. I mean, I wouldn’t want to see the end drag out, but it felt…truncated. Like someone said “hey we’ve got to chop two or three minutes out of this movie.”

4. “Space the final frontier…” – great that they ended with Kirk doing it…brings us back full circle, like Bond at the end of Skyfall. BUT…felt that the transition from Kirk’s speech at Starfleet to the “Space…” voice over felt awkward somehow, grammatically, and forced. Also (and this is the producer part of me after 25 years in television) Kirk’s final V/O sounded, as they say in the audio suite, “dry” – recorded in an audio booth with dead sound…no presence. I think it needed some grandeur to it…a little bit of reverb – something to make it sound bigger.

All very small things, certainly nitpicky, that didn’t detract from my enjoyment of the whole thing.

118. Bryan with Pointy Nacelles and a Large Disk - May 29, 2013

It was made for the video game generation, all spectacle and very little heart. It was rubbish…the writers claim to be Trekkers, it was painfully obvious they were child like in their creative execution. Please, Khan?
How origiinal. Ricardo is Khan, Cumberbach is a worthy villian as he is…without bringing Khan into it.

119. Goran'agar - May 29, 2013

@Mike Johnson
Awesome that you’re posting on Trekmovie! I love the comics man! Keep ‘em coming and don’t stop.
Gotta sleep now (Down under in Australia) but there is a whole lot more I want to post about how great the comics are…
After Darkness preview has got me excited for the next chapter in the comics…once a month for release is too damn long man

120. Zip - May 29, 2013

115. bmar – You said it. that is the best comments I have seen. Beautiful.

121. IDIC Lives! - May 29, 2013

@113 I agree, fantastic movie! This enthusiastic sentiment comes from a woman who campaigned to have the first space shuttle named Enterprise, read and wrote early fan fiction, and has actually used TOS as a stepping stone into quantum research and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence and contact.

The 2009 movie did not do it for me, I still bemoaned how incomparable TOS was/is. I could not quite get to Pine as Kirk; this was true of other characters too, but Kirk has always been my personal inspiration. TOS gave us The Scientific and The Spiritual and suggested there is no contradiction. They are two sides of the same reality coin. Thus we are a warrior but we will not kill – today. Or, to use Shatnerese, We. will. not kill. Today.

Now “Into Darkness” comes along and I am blown away! I grow tired of all the nitpicking whoevers… (never mind, slipped into Khan identity). But of course there is free speech.

Sure, there are holes in the STID plot. TOS didn’t have these? Just one that comes to mind, for gods’ sakes send down a shuttle to pick up frozen Sulu and party in “Enemy Within.” Does a complex, planet-sustaining installation below the surface of the “Apple” planet really need to be fed once or twice a day like clockwork? Does Val eat peaches?

So, for me, STID transcends beyond the plot holes. I did not want Khan for the villain; in fact, I did not want a villain at all. But STID transcends this too. It has the old magic and what a precious commodity! It has the old humor, and how great! It has the characters, good for you, Chris Pine, now you’ve GOT IT! And it has a scenario which connects to 2013 and tell us to be better than we are now – to strive to be what we were and what we will become.

Evolve or die, you purists! That is the way of the universe. Trek has evolved; thank goodness it did not die with old DVDs of TOS (yes, I still watch them now and then but I am no longer a spring chicken). Trek needs to reach younger people.

The popularity of”Die Hard 6″ (or is it 5? Or 7?) shows us the pressure people like JJ and Bob Orci are under, to have all the FX bells and whistles, the super-fast pace, the “noise.” STID is not an hour’s episode on analog tv in 1965 but these film makers actually managed to DO IT ALL in STID, to give the intelligent magic to us Trekkers and to create a big box office draw. The latter keeps Trek alive for the next film. We must understand this.

For many years I have felt that Star Trek is the window into a new spiritual/scientific perception for humankind. (Bless ya, Gene Roddenberry!). But the hyper-critical folk and the purists would indeed make it into a religion, yikes!

The fundamentalists take their religions as literal fact, word for word. It would be a bitter pill indeed if Trek died because no more movies would be made due to Trek fundamentalists, whether nitpickers or purists. It would mean a visionary phenomenon which tells us humankind can and should evolve, was killed by those who would NOT evolve. Holy irony, Batman.

I will go to STID for the 4th time soon and it is indeed better each time. I have had time now to enjoy what I missed and to allow myself to laugh and cry. The first time, I was afraid I’d miss the next scene if I laughed and cried.

Long Live Star Trek – Take us out, Mr. Sulu, into our own future!

122. Hat Rick - May 29, 2013

Not sure what you mean by very little heart. How much more heart do you need when the main character sacrifices his life to save his crew?

How many times have we seen Kirk apologize to his crew? Only in this movie. Kirk realized that it was his character that brought them to the brink of death.

The death of Pike was one of the most effective such scenes I have ever seen in recent years.

How many tributes to 9/11 and the victims of militarism have we seen in recent sci-fi movies?

I could go on and on.

Sure — some of the scenes may have been a little “rushed” compared with the classical movie-making you and I are used to. But let’s face it: Even TWOK can seem incredibly slow in the first half hour or so at times (though not in the Kobayashi Maru simulation).

I would say this regarding the heart and pathos thing: For an example of a very effective funeral scene, the Watchmen movie of a few years ago may serve as a modern example. But that was made more effective by the fact that The Comic was an inherently morally ambiguous character; that he received his honors (with few in attendance) upon death was more poignant — as well as ironic. And that scene served vastly different purposes.

I don’t understand why this movie is supposed to lack “heart.” I really don’t.

123. Killamarshtrek - May 29, 2013

Hi Mike, remember me, your prize winning ‘proof reader’ from england?

I agree with all the suggestions above, some great ideas for stories. What I’d also like to see is more tie in’s with STID. For instance something that boborci alluded to me on this forum. coming up with an explanation for Khan’s change of ethnicity!

thanks

124. MikeP - May 29, 2013

I saw it for the second time this weekend and my son was with me for his first viewing.

I already have the DVD on pre-order from Amazon. That should demonstrate what I think of ST ID.

125. Captain Jake Sisko - May 29, 2013

@ 20

I agree with your analysis which is something I have said for some time but its fallen on deaf ears. Think about it, Vulcan was the species Earth made First Contact with and Vulcan was the Federations strongest ally. If you eliminate a strong ally like Vulcan, then the Federation looks vulnerable. He was also afraid of the aggressive movements of the Klingon Empire which was reflected in the original series in “Errand of Mercy” Vulcans helped facilitate peace with the Klingons and were influential in Federation affairs. Marcus was shaken to his core and as he said the Klingons were a threat to their way of life.

How do you preserve your ideals in the face of time displaced angry Romulans and aggressive Klingons? You awaken one of the greatest war minds of the late 20th century who shows up on your doorstep wrapped in in a bow and you unleash him. I loved this movie more than words can say. A lot of the angst is nonsense and foolishness.

The writers have said that its an alternate reality or a quantum reality where things we know of happen differently or don’t happen at all. Kirk and Marcus could concieve a daughter instead of a son. Demora Sulu might be Hikaru Jr. Maybe Sybok died on Vulcan when it exploded (No tears here). I am looking forward to what they do next. I think the next movie will be just as big and as loud as this one.

126. Captain of the USS Monte Carlo NCC-1986 - May 29, 2013

I agree with many that this movie is BETTER the second time you see it!! I am going to see it again this time in 3D unless it isn’t better in 3D. Once i knew how it was going to unfold the second time was way more enjoyable. Great movie. I liked the last film, but as a Star Trek fan i like this one better than the last one. I would love to see more of stuff like the opening sequence in the next film that was a great romp.

127. Captain of the USS Monte Carlo NCC-1986 - May 29, 2013

@ # 119 –

Totally agree 100%. This is why i love this movie so much it is in my top 5 ST films of all time.

128. chrisfawkes.com - May 29, 2013

Actually one of the things I really loved was that when Star Fleet was under attack and everyone else was dodging bullets Kirk springs into action and starts getting his head around a way to bring Cumberbach down.

That scene was very James T Kirk to me.

Also the way he worked out that the London bombing was just so that they could all be attacked at Starfleet HQ.

129. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@80. CaptainJon,
“A: It was established earlier in the movie by McCoy that thawing the Augments was a delicate and length procedure. Their best bet was to capture Khan who was already thawed out.”

But wait, I’m confused … Didn’t McCoy do just that in order to put Kirk into cryo stasis? Thaw out one of the augments and keep him knocked out in sick bay? I mean at that point don’t you just start testing the new guy’s blood anyway?

Spock’s gonna chase Khan no matter what, but this answer doesn’t really work. As for no time to mobilize anyone to pursue Khan … What was Uhura doing? She couldn’t put out an APB? I thought that was her job.

130. Travis - May 29, 2013

The beginning of Star Trek Into Darkness was ok but it needed a ” Spark ” in my mind! Since most of us knew that John Harrison was Khan Noonien Singh, I think the start the of the movie should have been on Earth… Late 20th century… Year 1996… Eugenics Wars… Seeing Khan and his crew at their prime and getting banished on the Botany Bay! Then Nimbru starts!

131. Weerd1 - May 29, 2013

@103- Huzzah, well stated!

132. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@120. Killamarshtrek,
” For instance something that boborci alluded to me on this forum. coming up with an explanation for Khan’s change of ethnicity!”

He did? I rather thought Orci was pretty clear on the matter — Khan’s appearance is due to casting. They made no attempt to explain why the other actors look different from their original counterparts. If you want an answer aside from that, how about “he was a shape shifter too”.

That suggests to me, we’re never going to get an official explanation. As far as Orci is concerned, Khan looks the same to the other characters as he did in TOS, he only looks different to us because he’s played by a different actor. If you want a different explanation, make one up.

On the other hand, this could be the apparent position because Harrison was lying about being Khan, and they have to protect that secret for the next film. ;-)

133. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@126. Travis,
” I think the start the of the movie should have been on Earth… Late 20th century… Year 1996… Eugenics Wars…”

You do understand why this wouldn’t have been possible, right?

134. LogicalLeopard - May 29, 2013

86. Trekkiegal63 – May 28, 2013

Couldn’t agree more. Not even if I tried. On both fronts, would love to see more Uhura character development independently of Spock, and agree that her identity was far too tied up with him in this movie. And I admit I got nostalgic seeing Sulu in the chair – took me right back to seeing him in action in ST6, learned from the best, he did. It would be incredible to see Uhura do the same, especially in light of the sexism that was inherent in “Turnabout Intruder”. It would be beyond excellent to see a non-enemy (yes, I realize the Romulan commander in “Enterprise Incident” was a woman) female in the big seat without Pike’s ‘never get used to’ side commentary/sixties disclaimer. And it would go heads and tails into showing that our current execs heard the pointed replies by numerous critics on STID being a distinct step back for female character development and responded accordingly, in good faith.

***********************************

They took a lot more criticism than I thought they would, and deservedly so. I’m satisfied with Uhura being more prominent and fleshed out, but I would have liked more “independent” scenes with her. By independent, I mean, where she is portrayed as being a competent, capable officer leading in a situation. Take Sulu’s scene. Although there is some doubt, he establishes himself as being competent and capable. Some would argue that the Klingon scene does the same for Uhura, but…well, it didn’t go over very well, did it? *L* It was almost just talky talky, stabby stabby, until Khan broke into it. And with Spock, like I said, I see the logical reasons why she beamed down, but it had a “YOU LEAVE MY BOYFRIEND ALONE!” feel to it. And what I say about Uhura goes with all of the characters. But I think everyone had a good scene like that in the movie, with the exception of Chekov who just kind of putzed about in Engineering most of the movie. Alice Eve had a nice scene saving Bones on that planetoid.

But I do have to say that this movie worked everyone in okay. Less Chekov than I would have liked, but I think it did a good job of involving the characters, despite my complaints about HOW they were involved, like with Uhura.

135. William Bradley - May 29, 2013

Bob said the dramatic change in appearance for Khan came about because he and others didn’t want the terrorist villain to be a person of color.

>128. Curious Cadet – May 29, 2013
@120. Killamarshtrek,
” For instance something that boborci alluded to me on this forum. coming up with an explanation for Khan’s change of ethnicity!”

He did? I rather thought Orci was pretty clear on the matter — Khan’s appearance is due to casting.

136. LogicalLeopard - May 29, 2013

125. Curious Cadet – May 29, 2013
@80. CaptainJon,
“A: It was established earlier in the movie by McCoy that thawing the Augments was a delicate and length procedure. Their best bet was to capture Khan who was already thawed out.”

But wait, I’m confused … Didn’t McCoy do just that in order to put Kirk into cryo stasis? Thaw out one of the augments and keep him knocked out in sick bay? I mean at that point don’t you just start testing the new guy’s blood anyway?

**************************

Well, that’s a good point, as far as the augment. He’s in cryo stasis, and can’t be revived because Bones doesn’t know how to do it. But when Kirk gets in trouble, he throws the Augment out of his tube like he’s cleaning out a freezer *LOL* I can’t, at the moment, figure out a way Bones could do that without killing the Augment. Okay, maybe he still had to get Khan because the tests he ran were on Khan’s specific blood, and it was easier to get Khan than to try with another augment, who might be slightly different. But what about that poor melting popsicle? I think he said keep him heavily sedated, but HE”S FROZEN! You can’t sedate a frozen man! *L* Unless the cryogenics work differently than I think they do.
***************************

Spock’s gonna chase Khan no matter what, but this answer doesn’t really work. As for no time to mobilize anyone to pursue Khan … What was Uhura doing? She couldn’t put out an APB? I thought that was her job.

***************************

Easier to beam down herself than to call the SFPD, CHiPs, and Starfleet Security and explain to them how there’s a Vulcan and a 300 year old dictator fighting on a barge flying down Washington Street, and they need to beam over an armed party to help the Vulcan.

137. LogicalLeopard - May 29, 2013

111. James McFadden – May 29, 2013
WE COULD HAVE BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH’S KHAN AND THE OTHER AUGMENTS REAWAKENED IN THE 24TH CENTURY IN ORDER TO DEVELOP AN ADVANCED BATTLE STRATEGY AGAINST THE BORG BEFORE THE COLLECTIVE HAS A CHANCE OF GETTING TO THE ALPHA QUADRANT.
BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH WOULD BE AN IDEAL ACTOR FOR PLAYING COMMANDER DATA IN THE RE-IMAGINED 24TH CENTURY.

**********************

I doubt they’d wake up Khan AGAIN knowing what damage he was set to cause now, even in the face of a full out Borg invasion.

But I do like BC as Data….excellent casting!

138. Travis - May 29, 2013

@129: Curious Cadet: Let me guess because the year 1996 already has come and gone? I can see your point but in this case this is a ” Star Trek Timeline ” and not OUR timeline! I usually praise JJ Abrams and crew for their good work but in this case they screwed up! What they should have done is said right after the script is done… We have 2 villains in this film and one of them is Khan Noonien Singh! I think the fact that they kept hiding Khan and lieing that the character wasn’t going to be part of the film hurt the audience in my mind! Second: In order to re-introduce Khan back into the Star Trek line we need to see him and his crew at the beginning…. The Eugenics Wars ( keep in mind that the reboot of TOS franchise was to attract NEW fans and they probably didn’t know jack crap who Khan is ) finally see Khan in his surroundings, to describe what kind of warrior he was, to see Gary Seven help out Khan in his defeat and load up Khan and his crew on the Botany Bay ( even with this the Admiral Marcus, Section 31 finding the Botany Bay secrety can work or in this case be better ) by the time the year 2259 hits and Khan returns the audience has a back story to look on who Khan is and makes the villain look even more darker, more evil! In my mind there was a very weak back story of describing Khan when he told Kirk his true identity! Too treat Star Trek’s most dangerous villain how The Joker is to Batman… The audience must know!!!

139. USSEXETER - May 29, 2013

Can Bob Orci, Anthony, or anyone explain why there wasn’t much in the way of merchandise for STID? The 2009 film had plenty, and I remember going to Toys R US to see a lot of stuff in 2009. I went back to the store after STID and there was practically nothing except for some type of Lego Enterprise and Bird Of Prey. And with weeks before the release of Man Of Steel there were a ton of merchandise for Supes.

140. bwvandorn - May 29, 2013

What did it need more of? It needed more Star Trek. More like The Cage. This re-boot may be popular, but it bears little resemblance to Star Trek. The characters may look like the originals, but don’t behave like them, not remotely. The web series’, such as Star Trek Continues and Star Trek Phase 2, are better written, better acted, and much more entertaining.

141. Disinvited - May 29, 2013

#134. Travis – May 29, 2013

Interesting that you mention Gary 7 given that through some method he had a flawless body and was impervious to the Vulcan neck pinch. But why would 7 help Khan?

142. Brian - May 29, 2013

The movie really grows on you with second or third viewings. Also, it’s back to No. 2 at the box office with the bombing of Hangover Part 3, plus very good international numbers, so we shouldn’t worry too much about slashed budgets for XIII.

Actually, right now I’m more than ever looking forward to what the future might bring, with a new director, possibly new writers and the 5-year mission. Either you go down the Klingon war route, which, even though it might look visually stunning, it nothing that I would really want to see for Trek. Or you do a standalone space exploration adventure. Which we didn’t have in ages. So I’m all for that. Maybe I’m the minority, but I’d also really like to see – comics or otherwise – the 24th century in this altered timeline.

Other than that, I can just say that all criticism, especially that of my fellow old-school trekkers, its criticism on a very high level. We have here possibly the best blockbuster of 2013 so far, not only a good Star Trek but a very good SF movie in general. Of course there are small things that could be done differently or changed and improved, and of course I miss the story-driven approach of TV’s Star Trek, but this thing (and 2009) is exactly what the fading franchise needed. Just yesterday I talked to someone, a girl in her early 20′s, who had never been exposed to ST, and has all the TOS DVDs and a model ship of the Enterprise (the old one, not the current one) sitting on her desk. And that wouldn’t have happened without Trek09. So, all criticism aside, thanks to JJ, Bob and all the others for your work and the respect you treat this heritage with.

143. Robman007 - May 29, 2013

@135…I think you can thank CBS for that one.

I’d love to see the 3rd movie be a quasi Indiana Jones type adventure. Perhaps the Enterprise crew finds some artifact on a planet which leads them in a race with Kor and his crew to find some Preserver or First Federation artifact…

@134..One awesome idea I got out of Into Darkness was that Section 31 may have known about Khan’s wherabouts all along, even in the Prime Universe. Perhaps in Space Seed, the Enterprise does not just stumble across the Botany Bay, but was given the coordiants and told to “check it out”…..except they never recieved what they thought they would and Kirk more or less covered up what they found..

144. Robman007 - May 29, 2013

@137…Gary 7 helped Khan out in a trilogy of novels about Khan, the Eugenics Wars and his exile on Ceti Alpha 5…

145. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@134. Travis,
“Let me guess because the year 1996 already has come and gone? I can see your point but in this case this is a ” Star Trek Timeline ” and not OUR timeline!”

Close. It is a Star Trek timeline, but a point that is often made and with which I don’t disagree, is Star Trek is assumed to be our future. So they reboot Trek to attract a brand new more mainstream audience and immediately tell that audience there was this massive Eugenics war in the 1990s? Talk about geek blowback. This isn’t Watchmen. It’s hard enough to ask mainstream audiences to embrace scifi to begin with, so not only are you initiating them into a substantially different future world, you’re asking them to accept a substantially different past as well? Even TWOK knew better than to do that. Once you have brought people into the cult, and they are committed to it, then you can reveal the existence of Kolob … but not before. The movies are a tool to expand the franchise, not a vehicle to throroughly explore it.

146. PaulB - May 29, 2013

#95 “Well, after 3rd weekend in Australia, STiD has grossed more than ST09 did in its entire run withou adjusting for inflation.
“ST09 entire Australian box office was $12,650,526.”
*************

You should recheck your information. According to the site you linked, ST09 made at least $15,917,017 in its theatrical run down there.

Check the “View Archive” option near the bottom of the page you linked, and go to Week: July 2-8, 2009. (That appears to be last week ST09 was in the top 20 films down there.) There you’ll see $15,917,017.

147. Robman007 - May 29, 2013

Did anybody else pick up on the idea that the Vengeance was run by a precursor model of the M5 Computer…we’ve seen a computer system on TOS that was capable of running an entire starship with a minimal crew…

148. Robman007 - May 29, 2013

@141…if you are going to explain that the Eugenics Wars actually happened, you would say that all the current wars and even the original Gulf War were a large scale coverup and smoke screen to hide that the world was trying to fight these escaped Supermen that had taken over the world…

Regarding the M5 comment I made..even the vengance computer sounded like M5

149. Disinvited - May 29, 2013

#135. USSEXETER – May 29, 2013

I’d postulate the premature termination of the domestic 2009 toy line due to lack of sales has made the merchandisers gun shy?

Some here want to believe some fiction cooked up by THE WRAP that JJ abandoned all merchandising when CBS’ Les Moonves, who has a reputation for being a real SOB, refused to pull all non-movie related Trek merch from store shelves.

I don’t buy THE WRAP’s story because Mexico, a NAFTA member, has STID merch as do other international markets.

My guess is that as everyone focused on developing the international markets, someone, somewhere dropped the ball, and missed deadlines for getting the merch on the shelves in time for the U.S. run. This portends Paramount falling prey to some bad habits where in effect, if not actually, they take the fans for granted.

150. Ashley - May 29, 2013

@boborci

What are the chances of having some web-released clips of TOS scene reenactments with the new cast before the next movie? :)

151. Robman007 - May 29, 2013

@145..I dunno..it seems that a ton of the new Trek merchandise kinda disappeared at the same time..the toy line, the new model that was supposed to come here and not just Europe..I mean, it’s odd that the new model comes with the disclaimer that it’s not to be sold in the US. Just odd…

152. Robman007 - May 29, 2013

@146..

Personally, I think one of the best things they could do for the 50th anniversary would be to strike up a deal with Netflix and do a small, perhaps 4-8 episode “Season” with the new cast that is very TOS 5 Year Mission based as a lead in to the new film. Imagine how much money that would make? It worked wonders with Arrested Development.

Do the episodes in TOS style, with the same opening credits (updated with the new cast names), the same campy type music…just make it a great nod to TOS and all leading into some adventure, Indiana Jones style adventure for the new film….

153. Robman007 - May 29, 2013

I mean, they do the countdown comics…why not take that a step further..do a very small TV season with the new cast…just pay the cast a tad bit more, although I’m pretty sure that they could be talked into it as a way to honor the franchise that has been around for 50 years and helped their careers as well….

154. Travis - May 29, 2013

@ Curious Cadet: I understand your arguement but you have to realize that this ” Star Trek ” is still Gene Rodenberry’s line not JJ Abrams! What we know NOW is Star Trek is fiction and maybe one day it will be part of our distant future but as of right now it’s nothing more than Entertainment! Like I said before on my post # 134 the story must follow the line which means the year 1996 has to be and will be Eugenics Wars! A lot of fans like me wanted this in the movie! Nero hasa exception because he was the focus of putting our famed characters in their seats and now with into darkness for Khan Noonien Singh… You need to show the back story of how Khan was created! Remember what Bones told Kirk?? These Augments are 300 years old… Subtract 300 years from 2259…. You’ll get your answer my friend!

155. mrspock - May 29, 2013

Why can Harrsion not be Harrison?Harrison looks absolutely not like Khan.
New timeline in a alterative universe; OK, but why we must see Khan in a absolutely different way? Almost nothing of his character reminds me on the original charakter.

I am angry because the canon is broken!!! The new trek-movies had no respect for the original.

156. Jack - May 29, 2013

Part of the problem is that Marcus turns into a Bond villain. It’s a bit like the Nero problem — he’s got no dimensions. Same with Khan in this. Compared to both, Nero’s an emotionally complex villain…

157. Travis - May 29, 2013

@ 137 Disinvited: Gary 7 came from the future and brought his futuristic Transporter system with him! Gary 7 helped out Khan at the time because during Khan’s defeat he wanted to use a doomsday weapon on Earth that would have killed all humans on Earth including himself! Khan doesn’t like humans who are inferior to him win the war that he should have easily won! So instead out pops Gary 7 and persuades Khan to leave Earth on aAlien Spacecraft that was obtained by the United States Government on Area 51! In order to secretly get Khan and his 84 followers to Area 51…. Gary 7 used his transporter system and got the Botany Bay loaded and up in space before anyone knew what happened!

158. Disinvited - May 29, 2013

#153. Travis – May 29, 2013

Seems like a waste. Wouldn’t Gary’s superiors just want to take them up and reedjumacate them? Or the very least recruit their offspring for field agents? Why banish them to a sleeper ship?

159. SoonerDave - May 29, 2013

While I think it is intriguing that Khan/Harrison was clearly left alive and stuck back in his cryotube, at least leaving open the possibility he could “come back” in the next movie, I can’t fathom they’d revisit the same villain again.

I personally think the most likely prospect for the next film is a Klingon-Federation war, with all kinds of contemporary political overtones, with Kirk, Spock, perhaps even the Organians, engaging in some out of the box peace effort that would, for this timeline, render the Kitomer (Khitomer? Kithomer? whatever) compact moot. You could have the Klingons figure out that the Organians were going to scotch their planned war with the Federation, and devise a way to destroy them. Kirk and Spock, in a manner similar to Spock’s Classic Timeline overtures to Romulan, broker a peace agreement outside Starfleets desired parameters.

That keeps the Trek flavor going, allows for the requisite action, and keeps the non-Trek crowd intrigued.

160. Mantastic - May 29, 2013

Under the “More something not listed” category, I would say more respect and thought to science in terms of how things happen. Say, for example, having a ship crash into a planet like it actually would instead of dropping straight down like a stone in a lake.

Overall, just less (or no) moments that make me go “…..REALLY?!” and cause me to injure my eyes from rolling them so hard.

And tell JJ to cut out the damn lens flares and stop editing everything so damn fast.

And a new damn villain with a new story idea. We don’t need a recasting of Kruge for the third movie.

161. MJ - May 29, 2013

Buzz,

Yea, dude, you are correct. After 1.5 of continuous bombardment, my resolve did shift slightly in the two months before the release. :-)

162. MJ - May 29, 2013

“Under the “More something not listed” category, I would say more respect and thought to science in terms of how things happen. Say, for example, having a ship crash into a planet like it actually would instead of dropping straight down like a stone in a lake.”

I disagree. The Enterprise was never in orbit. It fell out of warp with no delta velocity in real space, and thus then dropped to Earth like a stone on a straight down course. Physics 101, dude.

163. drumvan - May 29, 2013

@115 bmar

3. The end. Again, not that I had a problem with what the end was – it’s just how it played out. After Spock punched Khan’s lights out, it seemed that they tried to wrap up things very quickly…boom we’re in the hospital room, boom we’re one year later, boom off they go on the 5 year mission. I mean, I wouldn’t want to see the end drag out, but it felt…truncated. Like someone said “hey we’ve got to chop two or three minutes out of this movie.”

4. “Space the final frontier…” – great that they ended with Kirk doing it…brings us back full circle, like Bond at the end of Skyfall. BUT…felt that the transition from Kirk’s speech at Starfleet to the “Space…” voice over felt awkward somehow, grammatically, and forced. Also (and this is the producer part of me after 25 years in television) Kirk’s final V/O sounded, as they say in the audio suite, “dry” – recorded in an audio booth with dead sound…no presence. I think it needed some grandeur to it…a little bit of reverb – something to make it sound bigger.
________________________________________________________

i totally agrre with your comments 3 & 4. the ending seemed to rush too quickly to wrap things up after the spock/khan fight. i also thought kirk woke up much too abruptly from his “death”. the flashback voices would have worked much better if they would have blurred his vision back instead of just a sharp cut.

i was confused on first viewing about the timing of the pike funeral scene (i’m assuming) or maybe it was marcus’s? then the quick transition to 1 year later and kirk’s address at the enterprise re-cristening. or was the flag folding and flyover just part of the cristening? i’m still not sure.

you’re dead on about the captain’s oath voiceover. it was a clumsy transition from his speech to the oath. both grammatically and in audio production. it added to the rushed feeling.

164. Warren - May 29, 2013

This is how I describe my opinoin of the new movie:

“I’m glad that Star Trek is now accessible to non-Trek fans.”

After two ‘new generation’ movies, I can now make up my mind that I prefer the ‘old’ style of movies.

165. Laconic - May 29, 2013

to #44, Curious Cadet: Enlisted personnel enlist for a predetermined period of time. Officers serve on the basis of either a commission or a warrant. (in the U.S., those under commission serve at the pleasure of the president; those under warrant at the pleasure of congress.) An officer–except while under fire or if there are any “holds” in effect–can certainly resign his or her commission. They may have to serve a little more time in service, may even have to serve in enlisted ranks if they received high value training, but they are done. In most cases, unless an officer has received high value training like an MD or pilot and are serving out a predetermined time to pay for it, an office resigning a commission is generally allowed to leave. One can also resign a position; commander of a vessel, for example, or Chief Engineer, without resigning one’s commission or rank.

166. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@144. Robman007,
“if you are going to explain that the Eugenics Wars actually happened, you would say that all the current wars and even the original Gulf War were a large scale coverup and smoke screen to hide that the world was trying to fight these escaped Supermen that had taken over the world…”

Yeah, I would buy that. However, to explain all of that as a set up to a movie where it just didn’t matter, would most likely alienate an audience they’ve done everything they could to downplay the Trekieness, and ‘what you need to know’, in order to attract them in the first place.

—————–
@150. Travis
“you have to realize that this ” Star Trek ” is still Gene Rodenberry’s line not JJ Abrams! … A lot of fans like me wanted this in the movie! … These Augments are 300 years old… Subtract 300 years from 2259…. You’ll get your answer my friend!”

Spoken like a true fan. Frankly, I’m not sure Roddenberry would also not attempt to retcon this if he were alive. Either way at the moment, Star Trek very much belonged to Abrams.

As a fan, I would also like to see Khan’s backstory immortalized in film. But considering how small a percentage the fans represent of this box office take, I don’t think our opinion trumps what concessions must be made for a general audience, nor will they ever unless Paramount decides to go back to accepting Nemisis level box office returns for Trek.

As for Khan’s 300 year old age, I’m a little surprised they chose to cement that in canon as it makes it just that much harder to retcon later. Either way, there’s no problem with him coming from 1959 for modern audiences, because they appropriately don’t discuss his rule of 1/4 of the Earth, nor the Eugenics wars, nor how he managed to get into a cryo sleeper ship in the 1990s. But, everybody’s heard of genetic engineering and cryonics.

167. Travis - May 29, 2013

@158 Disinvited: From what I understand Gary 7 is instructed from his future to protect Earth and make sure Earth follows the cycle of life! He may have been instructed to banish Khan from Earth as well! I suspect that Gary 7 will be in the comics very soon!

168. Josh C. - May 29, 2013

Just finished Star Trek Ongoing #21…

interesting. Definite signs that Marcus was up to a lot more.

*SPOILERS for #21 below*

Basically, Marcus was behind April’s attempt to seize the enterprise in the Countdown to Darkness comic. Meanwhile, the Enterprise has gone to Vulcan due to Spock’s Pon Farr (and met his arranged wife-to-be, to Uhura’s shock). Meanwhile Section 31 is trying to drum up an alliance with the Romulans to try to fight the Klingons

169. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@165. Laconic,
“An officer–except while under fire or if there are any “holds” in effect–can certainly resign his or her commission.”

Thanks for clarifying that. So Scotty resigning, in lieu of refusing a direct order rings true then.

170. jas_montreal - May 29, 2013

boborci said :

““Basically, as we went the casting process and we began honing in on the themes of the movie, it became uncomfortable for me to support demonizing anyone of color, particularly any one of middle eastern descent or anyone evoking that. One of the points of the movie is that we must be careful about the villain within US, not some other race.”

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/20/sticky-into-darkness-open-week-thread-polls/#5108430

“Middle eastern descent”? Sikh’s are from India, as I’m a Sikh also. Khan is indian. I told my parents about this comment and they were pretty disgusted with all the stereotypes going on about “brown people” in general. I’m ashamed the writers of our beloved franchise can think like this. I’d like to see Mr. Roberto Orci respond to this please.

171. Laconic - May 29, 2013

@169. Curious Cadet,

In fact, it is what we would expect from a person of honor. The Nuremburg Trials settled once and for all that “I was just following orders” is no excuse. And, in the case of the US military, an illegal order is, in fact, no order. One is expected to decline to comply with an illegal order. An out that officer’s have over enlisted personnel, is that they can resign either their position or commission, rather than just refusing to comply with an order.

172. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@92. Phobos in Montreal,
“What is the name of the race of white aliens in the beginning of the movie?”

LOL!

I almost forgot! Even the ALIENS are white in this Star Trek.

However, I may finally have an understanding of a possible motivation of why this may be the case — boborci’s comment that Khan was white because he represents “the enemy we create, or that is within us… not some “foreigner”.

No wonder virtually the entire cast is as mono-chromatic an ensemble as I’ve ever seen outside of a Leni Riefenstahl film.

So I guess that explains that.

173. Phil - May 29, 2013

@145. I know, make it a secret Eugenics War. When Men like Bill Clinton and Boris Yeltsin conspired to…rule….the…..world…oh, nevermind.

174. Ahmed - May 29, 2013

@173. Phil

Yeltsin was too busy drinking to pay attention to anything else!

175. Tom - May 29, 2013

Really hoping Bob and team do something special for 50th Anniversary with TOS actors. Would love a reworking of the Shatner scene meant for 2009.

176. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 29, 2013

I haven’t had time to read the comments, but here are some additional thoughts on the “homage” scene.

It was basically one of LOST’s remembering scenes without the flashbacks, because there are no flashbacks in this timeline. There’s nothing to “remember.” This series of movies is supposed to be about slowly creating those memories in a realistic way, or at least that’s what I thought, but I don’t think that is what’s happened in STID.

If you have never seen one of LOST’s remembering scenes, then here is one to look at below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WStOpoGtOGE

When Kirk asks Spock something like “Do you understand why I went back for you,” he may as well have been saying “Spock, do you remember?”

I would not be surprised if it was Damon Lindelof that wrote that “homage” scene. In fact, I think he did. The way nuSpock and nuKirk were touching hands in STID had a certain intimacy that I couldn’t place (while at the same time completely lacking the depth of connection that was felt when I watched the TWOK version with Nimoy and Shatner on YouTube), and for a while I could not place why it seemed so odd to me. And then someone mentioned something about LOST’s remembering scenes and that was it.

I know there are a lot of TOS fans here that might not agree with me, and I do not expect you to if you liked the film for what it was worth. I’m just stating what was missing there for me, which was this Kirk and Spock having a “story” of their own and not “remembering” a different lifetime judging by their actions in STID. That is all. Please feel free to leave your thoughts on the subject as well.

177. Phil - May 29, 2013

Gee, wouldn’t it be great if Q met the Pine crew….well, no, it won’t. Weird, the precursor to Q would be the P….same god-like powers, fresh urine smell.

Just what the franchise needs, more rehash.

178. Check the Circuit - May 29, 2013

I think STID is a really good movie. I’ve seen it 4 times. If I go in with the perspective of a newer fan and look at the movie as just a sequel to ST09, it’s a great movie.

But as I talk about it with other friends/fans that are nearly as old as the franchise itself, I find myself picking at the flaws:

Khan’s new ethnicity. (And was it really necessary to bring Khan into it at all in the second new timeline movie?)

A Starfleet officer willing to kill dozens of others to save his ill daughter.

Magic blood.

The reversed TWOK scene. (Too soon in the new series to borrow so heavily from the source material…IMHO)

Evil Admiral Marcus goes power mad kind of out of the blue. Willing to kill an entire starship crew to cover up his secret. And just how did he recruit a crew that would willingly go that far too? Do private security guys just do what they are told?

Glossing over what must be one of the worst attacks/disasters to befall the planet earth with a “one-year later” scene change. How many people were killed? Hundreds of thousands? (And are those deaths on Kirk for not making sure Khan was down and out on the Vengence bridge raid?) Seems like a disservice to the horror of the attack. Half a city wiped out….aaaaaannd SCENE CHANGE to….hopeful speech nearly a year later.

Still…the foundation and the characters are there for the next movie. And I can’t wait!

179. Mantastic - May 29, 2013

@162 MJ

Actually…

http://blogs.uoregon.edu/4dbio/2013/05/23/a-note-on-gravity-in-star-trek-into-darkness-spoilers/

I make no claims to be any sort of master at Physics, but I’m reasonably there that a large object hurtling towards Earth would be caught within it’s gravity and would therefore fall at an incline in an orbital trajectory, not straight down. Also, according to this article, it would’ve taken a looooot longer to reach Earth. Given that it’s a movie and we don’t want to watch hours and hours of freefall, I’ll give it leeway there, but still.

And, even if it could sink straight down, it would’ve been incinerated before it hit the lower atmosphere where clouds roam. In the movie it makes it through the atmosphere minus some hull plating without impulse or thruster power, even though everyone and their dog on the ship was freaking out that they were going to be incinerated. Hence the whole crisis ended up being much ado about nothing, with the exception of crashing on the surface.

180. Random Thots - May 29, 2013

The suits are gonna kill ST:2016 with all their insistence on celebrating ST: The 50th Anniversary. Somewhere in the movie is gonna be a portrait of Roddenberry.

Alice Eve in her undies and everybody has a coniption. Megan Fox photoshoot with a motorcycle in Transformers 2 (a totally useless and pointless scene) and nobody notices. Alice is much hotter than Megan IMO.

Obama is blatantly abusing the power of The POTUS and idiots still bring up Bush as an example of evil.

Now that I’ve heard that Carol Marcus was originally written as Janet Wallace for TWOK, I think that would have been a better idea. Using the original actress would have been cool.

I like Vengeance… different but familiar.

181. Check the Circuit - May 29, 2013

Oh….and what was the point of the scene with Prime Spock? I loved seeing Leonard Nimoy of course but the whole bit seemed like a throwaway done for shock value rather than to move the story forward.

On the other hand, I’m sure there are tons of great ideas for a full blown Prime Spock story. Wouldn’t Section 31 and other nefarious parties be doing everything in the their power to exploit his knowledge of the future and try to “encourage” his cooperation?

182. William Bradley - May 29, 2013

What actually happens in the rather good Greg Cox novels is that Gary Seven tries to mentor the young Khan Noonien Singh and turn him into a colleague of his and Roberta’s.

His effort meets with, ah, limited success …

>167. Travis – May 29, 2013
@158 Disinvited: From what I understand Gary 7 is instructed from his future to protect Earth and make sure Earth follows the cycle of life! He may have been instructed to banish Khan from Earth as well! I suspect that Gary 7 will be in the comics very soon!

183. Mark - May 29, 2013

@168 Josh C

If you don’t mind me asking, how does Spocks Pon Farr end? How do they deal with it? Does it follow some of the same storyline of Amok Time or does he actually get down with T’Pring? Lol

184. Trekkiegal63 - May 29, 2013

#134. LogicalLeopard:

They took a lot more criticism than I thought they would, and deservedly so.

Yes, just read another one this morning (I have a ‘star trek’ rss feed through google). What’s interesting about the article this morning was that it wasn’t just Trek’s treatment of female presence under fire, rather the way women are represented in the whole of the 2013 releases thus far (as compared to 2012, which featured wonderfully strong and dynamic heroines such as Black Widow and Pixar’s Merida, so I get their point).

Here’s the Trek-related excerpt from the article (http://www.heyuguys.co.uk/2013s-summer-blockbusters-celebrating-misogyny/):

The gratuitous underwear shot once again rears its ugly head in JJ Abram’s Star Trek Into Darkness. Alice Eve’s Dr. Carol Marcus seems ready to play a pivotal role in the plot, but in the end it becomes apparent she is present mainly so Kirk, and the fanboy audience, can ogle her. She then is sent crying to her Daddy, and ends up looking a bit of a helpless damsel in distress. She takes over underwear duty from Zoe Saldana’s Nyota Uhura. Saldana has made a name for herself as a tough, action-orientated actress. Sad, then, to see her reduced to almost a lovesick teenager, unable to focus properly on her job because of her intense feelings for Mr Spock.

…par for the course with what a lot of us has been saying, really.

But I do have to say that this movie worked everyone in okay. Less Chekov than I would have liked, but I think it did a good job of involving the characters, despite my complaints about HOW they were involved, like with Uhura.

Agreed. I particularly liked how Scotty was handled. And yes, more Chekov would have been great. It would have been fun to see more of him struggling to handle engineering (and boy would I love to be a fly on the wall to a conversation between Scotty and Chekov just after the events of the films climax, while Kirk was in recovery, lol). The small, interspersed ‘personality’ moments really propel a good Trek to a great one.

185. Mantastic - May 29, 2013

This pretty much sums up my feelings of the movie perfectly.

http://io9.com/star-trek-into-darkness-the-spoiler-faq-508927844

186. Other Guy - May 29, 2013

183. Mark

Yeah. Really, Mark. Good question.

As TOS described the Vulcan Pon Far the whole race would die not being able to return to the home world to spawn.

At least that’s how I understood the matter. Sorry. I am not going to research the Trekkie comments above for an answer or if this has been mentioned. But its another example of how bad the state of affairs are for the current Trek administration.

187. William Bradley - May 29, 2013

Continuing discussion from the suddenly shut-down thread … ON Uhura, Spock, and the “trinity” of Kirk/Spock/McCoy.

I expect the producers to continue to feature Uhura, somewhat more so than McCoy. In the ’60s, you could have a series centering on three white guys. Today, that is really not such a good idea.

And while Uhura was a breakthrough character for that time, by virtue of being on that bridge, she’s a breakout character for this time.

She’s youthful, hot, great-looking, smart, and an ass-kicker. She’s also a person of color. So she has a multi-dimensional appeal, especially for new fans.

AND Zoe Saldana is becoming a serious movie star. She’s in the Avatar franchise and now she is going to be a Marvel movie star, all in addition to her role in Trek.

>1870. Spock/Uhura Admirer – May 28, 2013
@#1836 Wm. Bradley

”1830 … That was quite a huge battle you all carried on there!!”

For me it wasn’t a battle. First, it was just an observation and a thought that then turned into an attempt at a discussion.

”K-S-M really have been called a “holy trinity,” as a figure of speech, since Star Trek first came on in the ’60s. It’s just because they were the figures in the show who did so much of the summing up, frequently providing actual morals for the episode. That was very helpful to very small boys, such as myself. :)

Okay, that helps me fully understand the responses I got. If someone has been calling them the “holy trinity” for around 50 years or all of their lives, then if someone who hasn’t done that, and isn’t used to seeing this in a fandom, points out how that might look… Okay. …

”I do like what Bob and the others did in introducing the Uhura-Spock relationship in ST09, a movie I absolutely love.”

As did I.

”My only real concern is that Uhura, who is a breakout character, and was justifiably used as such in the STID marketing, not be seen as defined by her relationship.”

Yes, in the marketing… In the ’09 movie, she wasn’t defined by her relationship, but in STID I can see how it looks that way. I’d like to see her and Spock both developed a bit independent of each other but also as a couple. I think the independent development will actually add to the couple development if it is done well.

I have my doubts, though. If the next movie is to continue on with being tailor made for TOS fans almost in its entirety like this one, then I think we’ll see the “holy trinity” get all of the focus to commemorate them or something. …

188. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@180. Random Thots,
“Megan Fox photoshoot with a motorcycle in Transformers 2 (a totally useless and pointless scene) and nobody notices.”

Precisely. Nobody notices because it is overt from the first time we met Megan Fox. Nobody tried to depict her as anything other than what she was — Michael Bay’s eye candy … the thing that kept him showing up on time everyday. The entire movie exploited her from frame one and the audience knew what to expect going in.

Alice Eve was not doing a Photoshoot with Kirk. She was having a professional conversation with him while changing. She was asking him not to look, and he did anyway, as her superior commander. There was no point for the scene, whether the conversation was set in a different context or not. In contrast Fox was putting it all out there to see, in an appropriate context in the movie and in keeping with her character, and the nature of the film.

Moreover, this is Star Trek, not Transformers. trek’s audience arguably has higher expectations and standards.

But ultimately, merely because it was done, and nobody noticed (which I doubt), or said anything (also unlikely), doesn’t mean it gives license to someone to do it again … particularly if the circumstances are completely dissimilar.

189. Phil - May 29, 2013

@183. Well, if all goes well there will be a little Spock running around nine months later….

190. Phil - May 29, 2013

@187. Considering the clusterf**k this turned into on the other thread, why not let it go?

191. Ahmed - May 29, 2013

@ 185. Mantastic – May 29, 2013

“This pretty much sums up my feelings of the movie perfectly.
http://io9.com/star-trek-into-darkness-the-spoiler-faq-508927844

Me too, it was right on target.

192. mikejohnson - May 29, 2013

168 / 183:

Pretty please don’t post spoliers for the comics, esp. on the release day when folks haven’t had time to read themselves.

Thanks,
Mike

193. steve - May 29, 2013

I’m a little disheartened that any comment labelled as “negative” is being used to demean people who’ve been life-long Trek fans. Look, this is the internet, so we’re always going to have mean-spirited flames from all kinds of trolls. BUT, there are those of us who were really disappointed with this film, who are trying to critique it based on non-fanboy terms, instead pointing to perceived problems with storyline, character development, dialogue, action, etc. You know, the elements of actual movie-making.

I believe those of us who are trying to rise above the din of the mean-spirited comments deserve to be heard, and not dismissed. I watched Trek on air in its original run, was at the very first Trek conventions in the ’70s (including the killer ones at the Statler Hilton in NYC), have been at every opening day of every movie, and have seen every episode of every Trek on television. So I’d rank my Trek credentials up against anyone’s. And I’m not knocking anyone who really liked the new film. But it would be nice to see some discussion of the non-flaming criticisms here.

194. Phil - May 29, 2013

@179. We actually have a real-world example to fall back on, recall that Chinese satellite kinetic-kill missile launch from a few years ago? A good chunk of that debris is still up there, on a very slow orbital decay. It will all burn up, eventually, but not in our lifetime. We can cut MJ some slack, Trek has a long history of showing it’s ships zipping along at impulse power before jumping to warp. They would carry that momentum jumping out as well…

Yeah, an unshielded, unpowered ship should have largely burned up in the atmosphere, not to mention the multiple sonic booms, ionized atmosphere, and massive levels of heat generated from that much mass entering at high speed. Hey, they ignored that at the beginning of the movie, too, so at least they are consistent.

195. baby - May 29, 2013

184. Trekkiegal63 – May 29, 2013
#134. LogicalLeopard:

They took a lot more criticism than I thought they would, and deservedly so.

Yes, just read another one this morning (I have a ‘star trek’ rss feed through google). What’s interesting about the article this morning was that it wasn’t just Trek’s treatment of female presence under fire, rather the way women are represented in the whole of the 2013 releases thus far (as compared to 2012, which featured wonderfully strong and dynamic heroines such as Black Widow and Pixar’s Merida, so I get their point).

Here’s the Trek-related excerpt from the article (http://www.heyuguys.co.uk/2013s-summer-blockbusters-celebrating-misogyny/):

The gratuitous underwear shot once again rears its ugly head in JJ Abram’s Star Trek Into Darkness. Alice Eve’s Dr. Carol Marcus seems ready to play a pivotal role in the plot, but in the end it becomes apparent she is present mainly so Kirk, and the fanboy audience, can ogle her. She then is sent crying to her Daddy, and ends up looking a bit of a helpless damsel in distress. She takes over underwear duty from Zoe Saldana’s Nyota Uhura. Saldana has made a name for herself as a tough, action-orientated actress. Sad, then, to see her reduced to almost a lovesick teenager, unable to focus properly on her job because of her intense feelings for Mr Spock.

…par for the course with what a lot of us has been saying, really.

But I do have to say that this movie worked everyone in okay. Less Chekov than I would have liked, but I think it did a good job of involving the characters, despite my complaints about HOW they were involved, like with Uhura.

Agreed. I particularly liked how Scotty was handled. And yes, more Chekov would have been great. It would have been fun to see more of him struggling to handle engineering (and boy would I love to be a fly on the wall to a conversation between Scotty and Chekov just after the events of the films climax, while Kirk was in recovery, lol). The small, interspersed ‘personality’ moments really propel a good Trek to a great one.
___________________________________________________________

Trekiegirl63,

you make some valid good points. however I believe that a lot of people have mixed feeling of the characters: black widow and the princess from Brave. here is an article of Princess Merida,

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/05/10/brave-iron-man-3-and-the-faux-feminism-of-armed-women/?partner=yahootix.

As for black widow I think she took a little criticism. There were a few critics who said that scarlet Johansson ass was very distracting in the film and she played the stereotypical seductress.in the sense that she uses her sex appeal to take down the bad guys.

Point is that it is not good for a female character to have her body be more memorable than her acting or performance.

I too an extent agree, however I think it is ridiculous at the same time. Scar Jo is one of the few women in Hollywood who has curves. why does she need to hide it?

Also again may a I also add that the character of black widow was driven by a man to do things in Avengers. Her relationship with Hawkeye was what made her want too take down Loki.

Even Loki kind of ridiculed her for been in love. Black widow is still no different from Uhura. All these women, Not all the time but most of the time are driven by their love for their boyfriends.

I just don’t think the whole general public can be ever satisfied with a female character.

I think Uhura is somewhere in the middle when it comes to female empowerment. Uhura is no Hermione Granger however she is no Bella Swan.

Uhura is more like Arwen from lord of the rings, she is neither a very weak female character neither is she a very strong one.

Also may I add that Bella Swan from Twilight is one of the worst female characters OF ALL TIME..

196. mikejohnson - May 29, 2013

@ 119
Thanks so much! I just got back from a month down under. Planning my return asap. Worked on new Trek comics while I was there, just a few klicks from Botany Bay (hint.)

197. mikejohnson - May 29, 2013

@ 116
I did some supplementary writing for the game, things like what you see when a tricorder scans something. As for the game/comic timeline, I see it as: Kirk getting the Nibiru orders at the end of the game, and then stopping by Phaedus, which is on the way to Nibiru. Both were meant to be basic exploratory/observation missions, so there was no rush to get to Nibiru.

And thank for your kind words! LL & P!

198. THX-1138 - May 29, 2013

I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet but STID is not doing well domestically and part of the reason is that the movie has failed to attract a younger audience. Right now it’s projected to under-perform ST 09. Now before you all go bashing me as a hater, STID is still a hit, just not the blockbuster that Paramount was hoping for. Some of the thoughts on why it isn’t quite meeting domestic expectations have been attributed to IM3 and FF…ummm…however many we’re up to. The thinking was that STID didn’t distance itself from IM3 in it’s marketing strategy (which if you watch their trailers they do have similar themes–bad guy doing voice-over saying that all you hold dear is going to get blown to sh*t because of your arrogance), and that all the young movie goers wanted to see Vin Diesel and…umm…whoever else is in FF.

There was some talk that it might cause Paramount to question how much they spend on the third movie after shelling out $200 mil and maybe not getting JJ back to direct. On the other hand you would think they would want to do something for the 50th. Just an odd situation.

Of course overseas STID is doing much better than ST09 and when you take into account VOD and DVD/Bluray everyone should make a boatload.

199. smike - May 29, 2013

OFF-TOPIC but none the less interesting…

I’ve just watched the first Star Trek Continues episode “Pilgrim of Eternity” which was released three days ago and I must say that I am truly impressed. The acting is superb… The new Kirk does an excellent Shatner impersonation and Chris Doohan basically IS his father. Sulu and Chekov are also right on target. The only one that bothered me was the new Bones… He doesn’t bare any resemblence to neither Kelley nor any of the New Voyages actors in that role. I thought he comes closer to SGA’s Dr. McKAY than to Dr. McCoy… The script and editing: nothing but superb. A true TOS episode sequel.

I’m sure, there will be reports on that episode briefly, but I couldn’t resist to mention it here…

200. smike - May 29, 2013

“I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet but STID is not doing well domestically”

While the current numbers are still a wee bit underwhelming, it is far from a disaster. C’mon…who would have believed any Star Trek movie to make more than $150 million four years ago? ST09 simply was TOO successful. Star Trek isn’t in that league and they should have never spent so much money on the sequel…

That said, it isn’t doing to badly either… $156 million so far domestically, still number 2 well above The Hangover III and Epic, it’s not bad at all…of course it’s no Dark Knight or Skyfall kinda sky-rocketing experience box-office-wise but one should have never expected that…

It’s X-Men, not Avengers money-wise, but it’s still A LOT compared to Treks I-X…demographics are a bit of a problem though. The young ones simply didn’t show up. But those who did LOVED it… Even my niece, who hates SciFi, was dragged in by her brother and dad and loved it…

201. Dave H. - May 29, 2013

“187. William Bradley – May 29, 2013
Continuing discussion from the suddenly shut-down thread … ”

William Bradley,

I believe that Matt Wright specifically requested that you cease and desist regarding you antagonistic comment on that “suddenly shut-down thread” last night.

Learn you lesson and behave.

202. Josh C. - May 29, 2013

183 Mark –

they haven’t dealt with it yet. The last part of the comic with the Enterprise was them landing on New Vulcan and his “wife” showing up. So, ask in another month. or two. or three since I think the “After Darkness” arc is supposed to span 4 issues lol

203. Josh C. - May 29, 2013

186 Other Guy -

I think Voyager sufficiently demonstrated that they didn’t actually have to physically be on Vulcan for Pon Farr to be resolved. It’s just that it’s tradition they go there, but it’s not biologically necessary as long as either a) they mate or b) the Kal-if-fee occurs

204. William Bradley - May 29, 2013

Hardly “antagonistic.”

>201. Dave H. – May 29, 2013

205. William Bradley - May 29, 2013

STID is a hit, as it should be. It’s doing well. But not as well as the studio expected, and not so well that issues with the film can be glossed over.

>200. smike – May 29, 2013
“I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet but STID is not doing well domestically”

While the current numbers are still a wee bit underwhelming, it is far from a disaster. C’mon…who would have believed any Star Trek movie to make more than $150 million four years ago? ST09 simply was TOO successful. Star Trek isn’t in that league and they should have never spent so much money on the sequel…

206. mikejohnson - May 29, 2013

@202

Josh, appreciate you picking up the comic but please don’t post spoilers for the story.

Thanks,
Mike

207. Diane - May 29, 2013

I totally agree with Karen, post 118 May 21. I have already pre ordered the Itunes movie for Ipad and downloaded the sound track immediately which I listen to every day. I hope they continue the cast interaction and friendships with the humor that was in both 2009 and 2013.

208. Josh C. - May 29, 2013

205 William Bradley – STID is actually slightly ahead of 2009 now day 12 vs. day 12. Granted STID had it’s memorial day weekend and 2009 hasn’t, but STID is about $4 million ahead after Monday, and 2009 made $6.4 million it’s Memorial Day monday so it can only gain so much.

2009 will probably finish with a bit more money, but I don’t think there is any question STID will hit $200 million at this point I wouldn’t think

209. Josh C. - May 29, 2013

OK, the $4 million gap was actually vs. Day 11 of 2009 (BOM makes it hard to compare direct day to day since STID opened a day early) but it’s still relatively in line with what 2009 was making

210. Ash - May 29, 2013

@195 baby-

Excellent post, I agree with absolutely everything you said. Uhura could be written much better, and her constant worry of her relationship and whether or not Spock cares (he obviously does and she should know it) is distracting from her developing on her own I think.

You’re right, Bella Swan is by far one of the worst female characters of all time. Uhura is above and beyond her. That being said, I think she has far more to go to before getting anywhere near Hermione Granger or Ellen Ripley (my all time FAVE!!) heroine status.

211. William Bradley - May 29, 2013

I agree. Certainly STID will be north of $200 million. It’s behind ST09 in actual viewers. It has higher ticket prices in general, plus the 3D and IMAX premiums, which it is about to lose.

AND STID is doing far better in international markets than ST09.

It’s a hit, as I said it would be all along. But it’s not what was expected. So decisions will be made.

I think it’s actually the best of both worlds.

>208. Josh C. – May 29, 2013
205 William Bradley – STID is actually slightly ahead of 2009 now day 12 vs. day 12. Granted STID had it’s memorial day weekend and 2009 hasn’t, but STID is about $4 million ahead after Monday, and 2009 made $6.4 million it’s Memorial Day monday so it can only gain so much.

2009 will probably finish with a bit more money, but I don’t think there is any question STID will hit $200 million at this point I wouldn’t think

212. William Bradley - May 29, 2013

Uhura can be a great character. She’s close now.

You know, these are the folks who came up with Sydney Bristow, so it’s not like they can’t do it.

>210. Ash – May 29, 2013
@195 baby-

Excellent post, I agree with absolutely everything you said. Uhura could be written much better, and her constant worry of her relationship and whether or not Spock cares (he obviously does and she should know it) is distracting from her developing on her own I think.

You’re right, Bella Swan is by far one of the worst female characters of all time. Uhura is above and beyond her. That being said, I think she has far more to go to before getting anywhere near Hermione Granger or Ellen Ripley (my all time FAVE!!) heroine status.

213. THX-1138 - May 29, 2013

#’199 and 200–Smike

Totally agree with you on Star Trek Continues. I thought it was great. That was as close to an ep of TOS as I have seen outside of TOS.

As for post #200, did you read all of what I wrote? The point is it experienced a 40+% drop-off from the previous week. That could best be described as “precipitous”. Paramount, having spent $50 mil more for the sequel than 09 was clearly looking for a smash-hit-blockbuster and they’re not going to get it. As I mentioned, it will do well. It just won’t pull the numbers that they were looking for. And the indicators are that it doesn’t have “legs” domestically. In Hollywood’s “what have you done for me lately” atmosphere it just gave me pause.

BTW, the dude playing Bones in Star Trek Continues is Larry Nemecek, who is a noted Star Trek author. I agree that his performance was uneven as the good Dr. but the rest of this very well done fan production made up for it. Also did you notice that Marina Sirtis played the computer voice?

214. Megan Fox's Agent - May 29, 2013

Megan Fox can handle the controvery about appearing in Transformers Revenge of the Fallen, but have you seen her in Revenge of the Fallen Trash?

So much better!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgEp6XpU11w

Don’t Litter!

215. endeavour crew - May 29, 2013

Okay, just finished watching ST V and it was very cheeeeesy…..

But!!!!!

It did delve into Spock and McCoy’s backgrounds which was very cool.

And this brings me to my point.

ALL Cinematic Trek has delivered in one way or another some good stuff-some waaaaay morfe than others.

But in the end it’s all good and it enriches out love for the ST universe as a whole- even if we may not love this installment or that…..

Just my 2 cents…

216. DS9 IN PRIME TIME - May 29, 2013

Well done Anthony… Well done…

DID THEY EVER PUT YOUR NAME INTO THE MOVIE AS BOBORCI PROMISED?

217. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 29, 2013

Okay, some of the S/U fans that read the comics just told me that they brought T’Pring back. If all they were going to do is screw S/U over, then why bother putting them together in the first place. This is bad.

218. Other Guy - May 29, 2013

215. endeavour crew

“But in the end it’s all good and it enriches out love for the ST universe as a whole- even if we may not love this installment or that…”

Nice point, endevor crew.

219. Yanks - May 29, 2013

Did we ever get an answer on why they thought it appropriate to use the WoK bait and switch at the end of the movie?

Why it is all of a sudden in character for Spock to loose it and scream?

Thanks

220. Trekkiegal63 - May 29, 2013

#195 and #210:

I agree with both of you, with one caveat… Black Widow. She actually wasn’t in a romantic relationship with Hawkeye. They were friends. Which I thought immensely refreshing. Male and female characters are seldom, if ever, portrayed as such (they’re usually either involved or in the process of becoming thus involved). Also, the Loki scene was a brilliant twist on taking on old trope, i.e. woman are led by their emotions, and turning it on its head. Loki believed her to be distraught over Hawkeye, which she completely played into and was able to extort relevant information from him as a result. It was rather fabulously written on Whedon’s part (“quivering quim” notwithstanding)… wouldn’t mind seeing more films take a gentle stab at gender stereotypes in that same vein, to be entirely honest.

But yes, more development for Uhura outside of a romantic relationship. I endorse that entirely.

221. Karen - May 29, 2013

@210 Ash

So what does it say about, well, everything in Hollywood, that Ripley (who is indeed a brilliant character) was initially meant to be a man. But then they cast Sigourney Weaver — and made only the smallest script changes?

222. Aly - May 29, 2013

@217-

Bad? Why bad? I think it’s a cool idea. T’Pring was, for her part, important to Spock’s Pon Farr and Amok Time is one of the most famous episodes ever. You’re freaking out over something that hasn’t even happened yet. No one is “screwing over” Spock and Uhura.

Even if they did break up, them being together in the first place and establishing a close relationship will be a huge part of who they become in the future. It’s obviously not the outcome you’re looking for, but no matter how they end up they can only have a positive influence on each other. Why don’t you wait and see how it plays out before you automatically assume its bad, yea? I’m sure it will be a great story with a satisfying ending.

I for one can’t wait to see T’Pring! She was shady for sure lol but she was an interesting character. She knew what she wanted and wasn’t afraid to go after it. Kinda admired that about her. Woman was fierce, not to mention she had the best hairdo in the galaxy :)

223. Ash - May 29, 2013

@221 Karen

I don’t know, but I’m just impressed they took the risk in the first place casting a woman as the lead and indisputable hero of the film. That was huge, and really hasn’t been seen much since. The Alien films are cult favorites and iconic and proves that a woman can be a heroine who carries a major franchise. I just wanna see more of that, and women like her :(

224. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 29, 2013

@#222

“T’Pring was, for her part, important to Spock’s Pon Farr and Amok Time is one of the most famous episodes ever. “

Yes, Aly, why don’t they just redo every episode. She wasn’t important to his Pon Farr. It’s one of the few TOS episodes I know I’ve seen, and didn’t she mean for him to die or something? She wanted the other dude, Stonn. Frankly, I don’t know why he would still be bonded with her if he’s also been with Uhura for years. I’m not sure that says something good about Spock, and I honestly don’t think Spock is as low as T’Pring.

“Why don’t you wait and see how it plays out before you automatically assume its bad, yea? I’m sure it will be a great story with a satisfying ending. “

I wish I was able to share your faith, Aly. I got a bit left, but that’s about it. I don’t understand why S/U just can’t be shown as a normal, functioning, couple like they were in the ’09 film. Maybe it’s for conflict or drama purposes, but I’d rather get that in another way.

“I for one can’t wait to see T’Pring! She was shady for sure lol but she was an interesting character. She knew what she wanted and wasn’t afraid to go after it. Kinda admired that about her. Woman was fierce, not to mention she had the best hairdo in the galaxy :)”

I think she should have died in the destruction of Vulcan, but whatever. One thing about it, if she’s with Spock, then she’ll stay far, far, away while he’s on his 5 year mission which means lots of “triumvirate time” ahead, although I think that was going to happen anyway, even with S/U.

I personally do not admire cheating woman that would try to get her fiance killed or have him kill his friend. That’s a helluva way to say you care!

225. ME - May 29, 2013

First I will start by saying I was entertained by and enjoyed the movie. Before I saw the movie I made sure to stay away from spoilers even though I thought they may use Khan. I didn’t think they would have a British guy play him though.

That being said I was disappointed when Harrison said he was Khan (and Khan is my favorite villain). I think if you are going to make most of the characters look like the original cast members you should have someone play Khan who looks even a little bit like the original actor Ricardo Montalbán. I felt like having someone who didn’t look anything like Khan (and of a different ethnicity and accent) was them trying to trick the audience because they wanted it to be a surprise, and that’s dumb.

That being said I think BC did a great job as a villain and it’s nothing against him. I think Harrison should have been a member of Khan’s crew who was revived from suspended animation. That would make him somewhat new but still make him superhuman like Khan. Plus it would give them time to have Khan in a later movie if they wanted.

I also thought the scene with Carol Marcus in her underwear was dumb. It made no sense and came out of nowhere. I hope the next movie develops the female characters and makes them more badass like they should be.

Those are my two main gripes.

I did like the Spock/ Kirk relationship drama and I thought Bones & Scotty were funny.

226. Mike - May 29, 2013

T’Pring is alive and in the comics?! That’s awesome! I had a crush on her in TOS. Gorgeous woman (or I should say Vulcan lol) even if she she screwed Spock over.

Can’t wait to see her in the new issues! Wonder if she still wants Stonn or has her eyes on Spock this time..

227. Dennis C - May 29, 2013

@219

The bait and switch, as with various other aspects of the film, would suggest two dimensional thinking…

228. Becca - May 29, 2013

T’Pring is still alive? Sweet! Bring her on!

I don’t know how it’s gonna play out, but you KNOW that woman has some tricks up her sleeve. Lol I kinda loved her in TOS. Even if she was evil, she was memorable.

229. Jemini - May 29, 2013

217. Spock/Uhura Admirer – May 29, 2013

Okay, some of the S/U fans that read the comics just told me that they brought T’Pring back. If all they were going to do is screw S/U over, then why bother putting them together in the first place. This is bad.

I don’t think she’s called T’Pring or maybe I missed her name
Could not be her at all. I have a theory about this lady but I won’t share it :P
I will judge this story when we get the whole thing.
Didn’t he mind meld with Uhura at one point? [comics] Would he do that if he had something to hide? so who knows. It looked like he wanted to go the through vulcan mating rituals with her so it would be a bit weird if he forgot to mention something so important to her
I smell some plot twists and I’m curious to know how the writers handle that.

230. Trekkiegal63 - May 29, 2013

#221 Karen:

Certainly explains a lot *sigh*. And agreed, Ripley is amazing.

#223. Ash:

Well said!

231. Jemini - May 29, 2013

oh and she doesn’t LOOK like T’pring to me, not at all. So I’m not sure I understand why everyone is taking for granted that it’s her! (for a moment I thought she was a boy ngl with the hair cut and all she looks like Spock’s little brother I had this brief moment of doubt but then I recovered LOL) Unless, again, they spell her name and I missed that.

232. Scott McC - May 29, 2013

I saw the film for the 3rd time last Friday night here in Reading, UK, with the cinema being ~90% full. Bearing in mind this was the films 3rd weekend here and that it’s competing with a slew of other franchise pictures, then I took this as a clear sign that the film has legs. I’ve also been struck by the number of people I’ve interacted with directly (or overheard) over the last few weeks who have also seen the film and thoroughly enjoyed it. Many I would not have associated with a Star Trek (or Sci-fi) movie, so clearly good word of mouth is having a very positive effect on audience numbers.

As for me the film gets better and better with repeated viewings. The opening sequence is a perfect old style teaser and I agree with previous comments that it brilliantly captured the look and feel of the Original Series (the red planet also reminded me of the look of the old “Gold Key” comic illustrations). The entirety of the sequence in which the Enterprise is out of control and spiralling towards Earth was also brilliantly realised and the final shot of the Enterprise plunging into the clouds (accompanied by Michael Giacchino’s superb score) continues to get my pulse racing.

I love the way in which the writers are bringing these characters to a new younger audience while still leaving much to enjoy (by way of new timeline twists and turns) for old school Trek fans like me, who grew up with the Original Series in the 70’s.

In the previous sticky thread, Jim Phelps commented as to the sound effects heard on the Klingon planet being similar to that eerie, high pitched wail (meant I believe to be the sound of the wind) which is heard on Talos IV in “The Cage”. I noticed that too and thought it was nice touch on the part of the filmmakers (I presume Ben Burtt et al). Similar was heard in Trek 09 when Kirk is on Delta Vega (right before being chased by “big-red”) which I thought captured the essence of so many landing party excursions on “strange new worlds” throughout the Original Series. I also thought the sound heard during the visit to the brig in STID captured (brilliantly) that low pitched hum heard in the corridors of the Enterprise during the Original Series.

233. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 29, 2013

@#229/31 Jemini

”I don’t think she’s called T’Pring or maybe I missed her name
Could not be her at all. I have a theory about this lady but I won’t share it :P
I will judge this story when we get the whole thing.
Didn’t he mind meld with Uhura at one point? [comics] Would he do that if he had something to hide? so who knows. It looked like he wanted to go the through vulcan mating rituals with her so it would be a bit weird if he forgot to mention something so important to her
I smell some plot twists and I’m curious to know how the writers handle that.”

Thanks, Jemini. All I know is what I was told, and they were saying that she’s T’Pring because she called herself his “betrothed.” Different theories were floating around about what could happen. And that’s just the thing. I don’t think he would hide anything from Uhura. At least that’s not the impression I got from them in the ’09 film. It just doesn’t seem like it would fit his character to have a fiancée and a girlfriend that he should be bonded to by now anyway. Maybe he goes there to break it off with her. Who knows.

”oh and she doesn’t LOOK like T’pring to me, not at all. So I’m not sure I understand why everyone is taking for granted that it’s her! (for a moment I thought she was a boy ngl with the hair cut and all she looks like Spock’s little brother I had this brief moment of doubt but then I recovered LOL) Unless, again, they spell her name and I missed that.”

She still said they are engaged, so it doesn’t matter if she’s T’Pring or T’Somebody else. That’s the part that sticks. Hopefully they don’t produce a lot of relationship drama that goes into the next film. This last film had enough to me.

234. Aly - May 29, 2013

@ 224

“Yes, Aly, why don’t they just redo every episode. She wasn’t important to his Pon Farr. It’s one of the few TOS episodes I know I’ve seen, and didn’t she mean for him to die or something? She wanted the other dude, Stonn. Frankly, I don’t know why he would still be bonded with her if he’s also been with Uhura for years. I’m not sure that says something good about Spock, and I honestly don’t think Spock is as low as T’Pring.”

I agree it’s what you’ve said, she did want Stonn and no, she wasn’t a good person. However she WAS important to his Pon Farr. She was his betrothed, how could she not be important? He was heading to Vulcan to bond with her.

I don’t know where you got the idea that I want them to redo every episode. I was just saying that taking aspects from the TOS episode Amok Time, such as T’Pring, is not unsurprising. And many will like it. We have no idea how it will play out, just because T’Pring (if it is her, someone mentioned it might not be) is there doesn’t mean the story will not be original. If you feel like she is a threat to Spock and Uhura, which seems to be the case, that’s one thing, but I think this has the potential to be a great story. I’m confidant they will handle all relationships well, in the comics I think they have so far.

235. Aly - May 29, 2013

Oops!

I meant “I agree *with* what you’ve said”

236. Patroclus - May 29, 2013

@ 185. Mantastic

Wow. I haven’t seen it yet, because I was waiting for my BF to get back from a trip, so we could see it together. I don’t mind spoilers for this very reason, and I can’t believe I am saying this, but after reading that io9 article, I now have absolutely no desire to see this movie.

237. BotanyBay - May 29, 2013

@147 I thought of that too. Would have been a nice little nod to hear the computer called M5 or even M4 or something, but in my own little “head canon” that’s what it will be

238. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 29, 2013

@Aly
“I agree it’s what you’ve said, she did want Stonn and no, she wasn’t a good person. However she WAS important to his Pon Farr. She was his betrothed, how could she not be important? He was heading to Vulcan to bond with her.

I don’t know where you got the idea that I want them to redo every episode. I was just saying that taking aspects from the TOS episode Amok Time, such as T’Pring, is not unsurprising. And many will like it. We have no idea how it will play out, just because T’Pring (if it is her, someone mentioned it might not be) is there doesn’t mean the story will not be original. If you feel like she is a threat to Spock and Uhura, which seems to be the case, that’s one thing, but I think this has the potential to be a great story. I’m confidant they will handle all relationships well, in the comics I think they have so far.”

I wasn’t saying that you want them to recreate every episode. It was just an off the cuff remark regarding the lack of new characters and new directions for the new Star Trek. I’m sure I’m not the only person who would like that. From what I can tell, one of the biggest complaints against STID was lack of originality and leaning on TOS too much for plot points and characters. Obviously, there are going to be some characters that get revisited, and if they do that with T’Pring in the comics, okay.

Maybe the woman in the comic wasn’t T’Pring. Perhaps Sarek arranged to have her replace T’Pring for Spock when Vulcan was destroyed. That way they wouldn’t have to look for someone while he was afflicted. Still, wouldn’t Sarek know about Uhura? So, again, I just don’t see the interesting aspect of this, but if it stays in the comics—okay. I don’t see the great story potential, but that’s just me. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, just that I’m not interested. I guess that’s why I don’t read comics.

239. Crewman Darnell - May 29, 2013

I finally made it to the theater last Sunday..

I sure wish I could say differently, but this film was a terrible disappointment. Through all the long months of hyperbole and what turned out to be childish lying, I still maintained hopes of being pleasantly surprised. I now realize I had greatly overestimated the potential of the director and writing team. The best thing I could say about this film is at times it was visually entertaining. Otherwise, it was a big budget, steaming crock, marketed as “Star Trek.” Truly a shame.

240. dmduncan - May 29, 2013

First there was Billary. Then there was Brangelina.

Now…the greatest celebrefictitous supercouple the galaxy has ever scene…I mean seen…

Spuhura.

241. Killamarshtrek - May 29, 2013

132. Curious Cadet & 135 William Bradley

Yes I’m aware of Bob’s ‘non middle eastern casting’ reason and Khan representing the enemy within US excuse. But if you check the previous sticky thread I asked him why he did didn’t come up with a reason within the film so as to preserve canon. He (presumably flippantly) said real life events (ie Khan not taking over half the world in the 90′s) had changed canon anyway, but he also said nothing in the film ruled out a later explanation. Yes it may have been his way of appeasing me, or it might have been a hint about something in one of the comics or even a future film (but as they like the films to be ‘self contained’ I doubt that).

242. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 29, 2013

Spock, in Amok Time, was being a good Vulcan and basically going through the motions as far as the marriage was concerned. He even said that he had hoped that he could have avoided the whole Pon Farr experience. It was clear that, in reality, that neither Spock nor T’Pring had any interest in being together. They were just forced into following an ancient custom/ritual. Whatever bond might have been forged when two of them were seven years old no longer held any weight.

I hardly think that T’Pring was cheating on Spock at all. She was just expressing her adult right to be with the man she chose to be with, as he did her. Perhaps it would be better to criticize the fact that Vulcans, a supposedly highly intelligent and evolved species, would still enact such spurious customs from a long time past.

I cannot believe that Amanda, Spock’s mother, would have even allowed for such an arranged marriage, especially given that her son was not fully Vulcan.

Amok Time shows Spock to be arrogant, irresponsible and stupid. Oops…we can’t say that about Spock. Those comments are only reserved for Kirk, who, in this film series, we see consistenly brutally beaten up for good measure…:(

243. P Technobabble - May 29, 2013

I believe the whole conversation about “sexism” in STID is being overblown. A suggestive scene of Kirk in a bed with two alien females and a shot of Carol Marcus in her underwear is a mere drop in the bucket when viewed next to some of the stuff you might see in any number of horror films, adolescent comedies, even suggestive advertising and so forth, which contain scenes of scantily clad or even topless females amongst other things. In films, this stuff is acknowledged in the rating notice at the beginning saying “brief nudity,” or “sexual content,” or whatever. Otherwise, not much is made of it. So is there something about Star Trek, specifically, which suggests that anything to do with sexuality should be taboo?
We came from what we might call the Dark Ages of television when characters had to be shown sleeping in separate beds, Elvis couldn’t be shown shaking his hips and Jeannie’s navel could not be exposed. These kinds of moments of censorship seem rather silly today. The entertainment industry has pushed all sorts of boundaries, presuming the audience has become more “sophisticated” than they were in the past. But in some cases it would seem the freedom of that sophistication has led to a backlash of intolerance and, in effect, a sense of righteousness. Some people will criticize things they find offensive but they might say it as if they represented the attitude of many, many people — which may not be the case.
It seems to me that the so-called “politically correct” movement tends to rear its head particularly in our entertainment culture, informing us about what is appropriate and what is not. But in doing so it forces us to abandon our sense of light-heartedness, our sense of humor and replace them with being overly serious. IMO, of course.

244. Mark - May 29, 2013

I don’t mind Spock and Uhura as much as I used to, but Supercouple? Lol umm..well if you see it that way, ok.

Even though I am a Trek man 100%, I have to say Han Solo and Leia are probably the best sci fi couple ever. Spock and Uhura are new and so far, haven’t really shown me anything impressive or memorable about them. Maybe future films will change my mind, but I’m not counting on it.

Unless you were joking lol. Were you?

245. Bell - May 29, 2013

T’Pring might show up? Uh, yes please! I was hoping she would come in along the way somewhere. That ice queen was pretty kickass. They really don’t show us enough Vulcan women. I hope they show us T’Pau as well! Can’t wait ;)

246. dmduncan - May 29, 2013

243. Mark – May 29, 2013

;-)

247. dmduncan - May 29, 2013

Yeah, T’pring. The downside of that is that with Lindelof writing scenes she and Uhura will both probably end up in bikinis fighting over Spock in a kiddie pool filled with the vulcan equivalent of Jello.

248. DaveK69 - May 29, 2013

Let me start off by saying that when I first saw the movie I didn’t think it was as good as the first, but I thought it was a really good movie. Upon the second viewing I was very much convinced it was every bit as good, if not a little better than first.

That being said…I think what makes this movie fall short is not in the movie itself, but in the process of bringing it to the screen. I don’t think the secrecy that JJ Abrams employs best serves the fans, or any awaiting audience. Not knowing what you’re going to see doesn’t make for the best anticipation. It becomes tiresome after a while. Then, getting closer to opening day they released clip after clip (none of which I watched). Who wants to see 10 or 12 clips that give you 20 to 30 minutes of the movie before seeing it? The other thing from JJ is the idea that a movie shouldn’t be more than 2 hours long. When a movie moves at that pace and seems to flow so quickly there is always room for more plot basis, or interaction. Plus, trying to hide the villan being Khan was the wrong way to go. They should have exploited that. John Harrison was a 15 minute bluff…The identity can still be a ruse for the sake of the movie and the crew, but not necessarily needed for the audience. A 15 minute opening of Khan, back in the 20th or 21st century, having his exile staged is better opening sequence. Setting his fate to present day and how he could still be a vicious dictator (like we don’t have those now?), then being banished to space. Show the Botany Bay being found by another ship…I postulated this 4 years ago on a thread here.

The next movie is three years away. One thing is certain…Star Trek needs room to breathe in the theater. Being sandwiched between the movies that it was became a detriment. It will do as well as Star Trek 2009, and better overseas. In the end it will probably do about $400 Million worldwide. A nice take, but not what they were hoping for. It may be better with a December 2015 release, or mid April 2016 release.

I don’t think there will be any kind of extended cut. Abrams has already said there wasn’t much more footage than we have already seen. For the next movie I don’t think it matters if it’s a retake on an old Trek story, or a brand new story…It just needs to be a good story.

249. McCoy's#1Fan - May 29, 2013

Toi Bob Orci: If you are still monitoring these posts please take note as to what leads the poll for what more was needed of in STID:.. more Kirk/Spock/McCoy interaction. What s surprise!!

The K/S/M relationship was always the heart of TOS. They didn’t
have money for then state of the art special effects so the concentration was on the characters.

For some reason in both movies the decision was made to go a different direction and I believe it has been costly in its results.

Do you realize we have yet to have a Spock/McCoy scene, always a highlight of any TREK movie?

250. P Technobabble - May 29, 2013

As for what’s ahead in the next Star Trek film…
I don’t think it is necessary to be knocking around plot ideas. What’s important are the characters. Focus on what makes these characters become who we know (and want) them to be.
Kirk needs to be pushed way beyond whatever limits he has. He needs to face something that really breaks him. But he finds what it takes to survive and come back “new and improved.” The bottom line is that he will do whatever it takes to protect his crew and ship.
We now have a “new” Spock in that this Spock’s emotions are more visible. How difficult will the struggle between the Vulcan side and the human side be? Is there something about the Vulcan side which will emerge and make the emotions more painful to deal with? Will we see this Spock make a stronger move toward the logical, unemotional side –and what causes it? If his half-breed struggle becomes even greater how will it affect his relationship with Uhura?
And what about Uhura — will something happen that forces her to choose between her career and Spock? Will something happen that brings them even closer together?
And McCoy (who still seems a bit under-used). I think we need to find out what makes him tick. Maybe something that pushes his medical abilities beyond his limits, whatever those might be?
In general, I think we need to see these characters pushed to the edge, hanging on to each other by barely a thread.
Ok, I think I’ve made my point.

251. Becca - May 29, 2013

@248 McCoy fan-

Yes yes and YES! Polls and comments have shown that since 2009. I so hope we got much more of them the next time around :)

252. Charles Trotter - May 29, 2013

248. McCoy’s#1Fan

“Do you realize we have yet to have a Spock/McCoy scene, always a highlight of any TREK movie?”

You must have seen an edited version of both movies, then. In the first one, Spock and McCoy argue over the latter’s decision to kick Kirk off the ‘Enterprise.’ And in STID, there are at least two Spock/McCoy scenes, including one in which they discuss opening a torpedo and one near the end in which Spock orders McCoy to remove the cryotubes from the torpedoes.

253. William Bradley - May 29, 2013

Actually, there was a very key McCoy-Spock scene in ST09, in which McCoy confronts Spock for his decision about Kirk, and in very colorful fashion.

“Are you out of your Vulcan mind?!” Then they have the metaphorical discussion about a stallion and Spock’s feelings.

> 248. McCoy’s#1Fan – May 29, 2013
Toi Bob Orci: If you are still monitoring these posts please take note as to what leads the poll for what more was needed of in STID:.. more Kirk/Spock/McCoy interaction. What s surprise!!

The K/S/M relationship was always the heart of TOS. They didn’t
have money for then state of the art special effects so the concentration was on the characters.

For some reason in both movies the decision was made to go a different direction and I believe it has been costly in its results.

Do you realize we have yet to have a Spock/McCoy scene, always a highlight of any TREK movie?

254. William Bradley - May 29, 2013

It may be that this entire area of casting “Khan” and of portraying the character was prone to awkward committee decision making.

>241. Killamarshtrek – May 29, 2013
132. Curious Cadet & 135 William Bradley

Yes I’m aware of Bob’s ‘non middle eastern casting’ reason and Khan representing the enemy within US excuse. But if you check the previous sticky thread I asked him why he did didn’t come up with a reason within the film so as to preserve canon. He (presumably flippantly) said real life events (ie Khan not taking over half the world in the 90′s) had changed canon anyway, but he also said nothing in the film ruled out a later explanation. Yes it may have been his way of appeasing me, or it might have been a hint about something in one of the comics or even a future film (but as they like the films to be ‘self contained’ I doubt that).

255. McCoy's#1Fan - May 29, 2013

I am talking about a scene like the one S/M had in the jail cell in
Bread and Circuses.. McCoy really hit a nerve with Spock.

I will concede one thing.. now that they made Spock more emotional
there won’t be much of a chance for that type of scene again.. what a
shame

256. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@241. Killamarshtrek,
“He (presumably flippantly) said real life events (ie Khan not taking over half the world in the 90′s) had changed canon anyway, but he also said nothing in the film ruled out a later explanation. Yes it may have been his way of appeasing me, or it might have been a hint about something in one of the comics or even a future film.”

Ah yes, I remember that exchange. His response was right up there with his other response to someone else about how Khan might have been a “shape shifter too”.

Personally, I don’t think Orci is ever going to explain why Khan looks different than he did in Space Seed or TWOK. When I suggested that there was nothing in the film that prevented a future film from thawing out the real Khan and informing us Harrison lied about being Khan, Orci commented “true enough”. And I think that’s what Orci meant here too, that there’s nothing that prevents someone in the future from providing an explanation as I did about the true identity of Khan, or that he had elaborate plastic surgery. I just don’t think Orci is going to be the guy to do it, unless they really are planning some kind of unlikely ‘Khan lied’ plot twist, in which case there’s even more incentive to dodge the question.

And I don’t blame him. Frankly, once they go down this road, which they shouldn’t have in the first place, then it’s the Klingon head ridges all over again. DS9 really screwed up by calling attention to it in the first place, and Enterprise really made a meal out of nothing. They’ve already taken the flak for it, why compound the problem by creating some cockamamie retcon that is sure not to please everyone. It’s done, move on.

257. William Bradley - May 29, 2013

That DS9 episode for Trek’s anniversary was one of the best ever. Certainly the audience, not to mention the crew, noticed that the Kirk-era Klingons didn’t look like Worf and the other Klingons. The obvious difference, which had to be acknowledged, made for a very funny scene.

>256. Curious Cadet – May 29, 2013
@241. Killamarshtrek then it’s the Klingon head ridges all over again. DS9 really screwed up by calling attention to it in the first place, and Enterprise really made a meal out of nothing.

258. ensign joe - May 29, 2013

Still haven’t seen it :)

First Star Trek film I haven’t seen on opening weekend since TSFS.. and that was because I was too little to remember if I had or hadn’t..

259. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 29, 2013

@252. Charles Trotter – May 29, 2013
248. McCoy’s#1Fan

“Do you realize we have yet to have a Spock/McCoy scene, always a highlight of any TREK movie?”

There is at least one more interaction from STID, in addition to those outlined by Charles Trotter. When Kirk & Khan are space jumping: McCoy says to Spock “Tell me this is going to work”, Spock replies “I have neither the information nor the confidence to do so”, to which McCoy replies “You’re a comfort.”

260. Jack - May 29, 2013

“DS9 really screwed up by calling attention to it in the first place,”

I couldn’t disagree more — It was great. And it should have been left at that. Enterprise’s need to explain it was unnecessary. But, hey, I thought that entire series was unnecessary.

Who cares if Khan’s a different actor? Everyone else is too.

261. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@248 DaveK69,
“A 15 minute opening of Khan, back in the 20th or 21st century, having his exile staged is better opening sequence. Setting his fate to present day and how he could still be a vicious dictator (like we don’t have those now?), then being banished to space. Show the Botany Bay being found by another ship”

This could definitely have worked, but instead of a caption reading “1996″ just a general “Earth, another era, Northern India”, or something similar that wouldn’t confuse the general audience.

A couple of comments, I think both Spock and Khan conceded it was not an exile, they left of their own accord rather than stay and face defeat and imprisonment or execution. So no banishment in a state of the art sleeper ship. Maybe a scene where they raid and steal the ship demonstrating Khan’s ruthlessness, without necessarily having to go to the time and effort of depicting his actual rule.

STID seems to be intentionally vague about Khan’s background. General pronouncements are made, but nothing specific or concrete. Spock calls him genocidal, yet there’s no canon to back this up. Orci is dodging the question of why Khan’s appearance is different than canon. He’s 300 years old, but no explanation of why he was created, or how he came to be in a ship floating through space. So, doing what you suggest, would DEFINE Khan in a way the film seems to be intentionally avoiding.

262. Reign1701A - May 29, 2013

@mikejohnson

Doomsday Machine, Corbomite Manuever, Arena, Day of the Dove

263. Jack - May 29, 2013

255. IMO, part of the trouble is Quinto — he doesn’t do stoic well, he tends to either look constipated or incredibly irritated.

264. Phil - May 29, 2013

@250….that would be a woman in charge. It would be interesting to pair this Kirk on a extended two ship mission where the female captain of the other ship doesn’t suffer fools gladly.

Just a thought….

265. rogerachong - May 29, 2013

From an interview with my favorite Catian twins from STID. Reason #101 why it is great to be Captain Kirk!

For twins Katie and Kellie Cockrell, taking on the role of the two Caitians came with challenges.

The first challenge was getting into bed with actor Chris Pine.

“It was really fun but also really intimidating because Chris Pine is obviously not bad looking,” said Kellie. “He’s really handsome and very charismatic, and the whole thing can be a little intimidating.”

Another challenge was the makeup process involved in becoming Caitian. “We did ten to twelve makeup days, which are full days, twelve hours on set at least, sitting in a makeup chair with these really great special effects makeup people,” said Katie. “We tried a ton of different things. One of the first things we got done was a head cast; Kellie went first she’s a little bit more brave then I am so she was calm, but when I was doing it, I was having panic attacks because it’s so claustrophobic and you can’t take it off for ten minutes.”

“They made prosthetic ears [and] prosthetic noses; in the movie we have these kind of scale type things. Our characters are cats, and for our tails, when we were filming the scene, there was a special effects guy sitting right behind us actually moving the tails.”

The women have moved on to their next project, an independent film titled Feels So Good. “It’s a teenage comedy,” said Kelly. “It was really fun.”

266. dmduncan - May 29, 2013

@256: Here’s an alternate ending I just whipped up for STID taking that idea. Hope you like:

***

The camera closes in on John Harrison’s face through the glass of his cryo tube, stored in some Starfleet warehouse.

We hear the sounds of war. Cut to—

The world is in flames.

A massive rocket sits on its pad, aimed at the sky. A fence line is breached by an army of jeeps, trucks—anything that could be rigged for high speed travel over rough terrain while carrying well armed guerrilla fighters. And the fighters are speeding toward the rocket on its pad.

On the rocket, the last of the cryo pods are closing, and a man who looks exactly like Benedict Cumberbatch is racing through the launch protocols.

An Asian woman appears. “They’ve located us. The perimeter is breached. We’re running out of time.”

“We have time enough” the BC looking man says calmly. “Get in your pod. We’ll be off in moments.”

“Even after we launch they will be looking for us. We can’t afford to be boarded while we’re a—”

He interrupts her sentence with a smile.

“The records have already been scrubbed,” he says. “I am now scheduled to awaken first. I will be the scout…to protect you…and HIM.”

The ship begins to rumble. She embraces the man. “I will see you on the other side” he says. They run for their tubes and seal themselves in as rockets fired from the approaching crowd of vehicles fall short of their target.

The giant rocket climbs beyond the range of their weapons. From the vehicles on the ground, curses and middle fingers bid the rocket farewell.

Someone throws his last can of coke.

Aboard the rising rocket, the colored lights of a readout color the man’s face as he freezes into sleep.

Cut to—

John Harrison’s face again, back in Starfleet storage. Suspenseful music builds as the camera backs out and slowly floats above rows of cryo tubes

The camera moves towards one and slowly moves in toward the glass of an anonymous Botany Bay genetic superman.

Through the glass we see the face of an olive-skinned man with long black hair combed neatly back and ending in a pony tail off to the side.

He needs no other introduction.

Cut to black. The end.

267. Phil - May 29, 2013

@242. Are we talking about the actual episode “Amok Time’ or are you writing another piece of fan fiction?

We all know of your infatuation with Zapp Brannigan, but really, suggesting that prime Spock is no better then Pine Kirk is a bit of a stretch….

268. dmduncan - May 29, 2013

Oh, I forgot: When we see his face through the glass, Giachino’s score smoothly slides into an identifying riff from James Horner’s TWOK score.

269. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@260. Jack,
“I couldn’t disagree more — It was great. And it should have been left at that.”

Oh, I really enjoyed “Trials and Tribble-ations”, however, there was no need to go point out the differences, especially since Worf was essentially disguised. Better yet, just don’t put Worf on the space station in direct contrast to the Klingons — they could have kept him on the Enterprise, or on the Defiant, or simply left back on DS9 and actually left somebody senior in charge. It wouldn’t have changed how great that episode was. Wasn’t it enough just getting the unnecessary Klingon Tribble story? Aspects such as these demonstrate just how fan-servicing the Berman era had become.

Either way, agreed Enterprise should have just dropped it.

Nevertheless, I find it difficult to accept your insistence that the Klingon differences in appearance should have been pointed out as it was, yet suggest the major change in appearance of Khan in STID should simply be ignored.

270. Phil - May 29, 2013

@267…

Alternate alternate ending…
Starfleet storage office…

Manager: What the hell is this??!!?? Plasma Coolant! The requisition was for Cryogenic Refrigerant!

Yeoman Screwup: Coolant is coolant. Besides, we are a storage facility.

Manager: Any idea what Plasma Coolant does to biological tissue? Melts it faster then a hot knife through butter.

Yeoman Screwup: What’s butter….

Manager: Never mind. At least it’s secure.

Yeoman Screwup: Not so fast, the maintenance guys were complaining that those 72 tubes we got in yesterday used it all up.

Manager: Oh, shit….

Fade to black…

271. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@247. dmduncan,
” with Lindelof writing scenes [T'pring] and Uhura will both probably end up in bikinis fighting over Spock in a kiddie pool filled with the vulcan equivalent of Jello.”

LOL

272. There are always possibilities..... - May 29, 2013

269: Alternate ending to the power of three after credits:

Spock prime beams down to Guardian of Forever planet,mind melds with it, tricoder scans it and then jumps through.

An instant later, Spock Prime and then Captain James Tiberius Kirk Prime return.

Guardian: All is restored as it was. Let me be your gateway.

Kirk: Let’s get …

Spock: the Hell out of here.

Classic Star Trek music from Steiner as they beam up and fade out.

273. jptech - May 29, 2013

@boborci

By the time the Nibirans were sketching the Enterprise in the soil, I was ready to cheer. That whole opening felt like we actually had Star Trek back. 2009 was a great film, but left me feeling like “we’re almost there…” I thoroughly enjoyed STID. There were great character moments (the big E arising from the clouds was just awesome – another cheer-worthy moment) and once we knew we had Khan – how could you not have a KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN scene?

Everything about this film from the acting, direction, cinematography, effects, script and so forth is fantastic, and more appreciated the more I see it. There are movies that are done very professionally, and then there are movies that are done with love – this movie is definitely the latter. Thanks for that.

Saw it three times so far, in our small-town 3-screen theatre with poor sound and borderline 3D. (They don’t even have Interac machines!!) The subwoofer was blown rather badly in their 200 seat auditorium (warp drive shouldn’t rattle…) and the sound was not really special in the 100 seat auditorium. If it was another movie, I would have walked out and got my money back. For this movie, I pulled out my cash every time with a smile. Can’t wait to go to the big city and watch it in IMAX!

274. Karen - May 29, 2013

@244 Mark

I dunno … they’re good, but I think Olivia and Peter on Fringe are better. Maybe because they had more screen time together, tv vs film.

275. Bucky - May 29, 2013

Conspiracy theory: I really didn’t know much or anything about Boborci’s conspiracy theories until after the 2009 Star Trek movie came out. “Into Darkness” has a distinctly conspiracy theory vibe. This is after 4 years of Boborci’s (enjoyable) posts and sometimes dropping conspiracy theories into Trekmovie and AICN talkbacks.

Therefore, Boborci talking about conspiracy theories was actually to soften us up to the idea in a Trek movie by engaging in years long subterfuge promotion for the movie! Now how’s that for a conspiracy! Yeah! We’re through the looking glass here, people…

276. dmduncan - May 29, 2013

Yeah, tracing the Enteprise in the red soil was not only visually beautiful, it was also a suggestion of ancient astronaut theory as the true origin of some religions. Ezekial’s Wheel, anyone?

(Now please don’t hammer me if you are religious. I’m not saying it’s true, I’m just saying it represents a certain theory that’s out there. And it’s also just a damned good sequence whether you hold the theory or not.)

277. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

Nice article, and related article, about how well STID’s box office is doing and what kind of profits the studio can actually expect to see from the theaters …

http://io9.com/whats-the-future-of-star-trek-after-into-darkness-510291083

278. Curious Cadet - May 29, 2013

@276 dmduncan,

Originally posted by: You want me to put on a WHAT color shirt!?!? – May 17, 2013

Bob Orci,

Forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but here is the post credits scene I was hoping to see…

Planet Nibiru…1000 years in the future.

Two archeologists digging near a long dormant volcano come across a cave painting of a “starship” and other renderings that tell a tale of “aliens” that save the local villagers.

One archeologist looks at the other and says:

“Aliens from outer space. Yeah, right.”

279. HubcapDave - May 29, 2013

@213

“The point is it experienced a 40+% drop-off from the previous week. That could best be described as “precipitous”.”

Oh, hogwash! If you follow box office trends at all, you’d know that 50%+ drops from opening weekend are the norm in this age of multiplex theaters. STID dropped 46.9% from it’s opening weekend. that’s not much worse than the 42.8% ST dropped in it’s second weekend. Add in to that the long weekend (in which Monday acts like a second Sunday), and STID held quite well against its opening weekend. In fact, if you look at the percentage drops of STID this weekend against the percentage drops of ST during Memorial Day weekend in ’09, and the percentages are almost exactly the same.

I did some number crunching the first weekend, and I figured the absolute worst STID would do is $210m, and the absolute best is $270m. Right now, I’d say it’s going to land about in the middle of that range, about $240-250m. The movie is showing legs, just maybe not quite the legs ST had. We still got a ways to go, though.

280. Mark - May 29, 2013

@274 Karen-

Aw I forgot Peter and Olivia! Yes they are better as well. I would also make a case for Mulder and Scully, Neo and Trinity, Sydney and Vaughn, and Buffy and Angel as being superior couples.

Also, and I’m totally prepared to be verbally smacked for this LOL, but I think Dom and Letty from F&F are a pretty kickass couple. I admit they are pretty dumb, mindless films but that couple is awesome. Letty is every bit as badass and tough as Dom and she takes $hit from no one. Always admired that.

281. CaptainJon - May 29, 2013

I didn’t mind the lifting of TWoK scenes. I viewed it as a great homage to a great film while making it part of the new movie. Not only that, I thought that Kirk’s line of “I’m afraid” really echoed his & Spock’s first encounter in ST09. Kirk finally faced the Kobayashi Maru scenario that Spock warned him of; “A captain must experience fear in the face of certain death.” That’s what happened with Kirk. Kirk didn’t cheat death but he faced it head on to save those he loved just like his father did. I thought it drew upon the themes of ST09 perfectly and created a great arc for the character.

And like I said, it wasn’t Kirk who cheated death; it was his crew that cheated death for him!

MikeJohnson mentioned that in TWoK the death scene was a culmination of years of friendship but in STID it was the solidification of that said friendship in its early stages. I couldn’t agree more & that’s how I looked at it as well!

The ONLY thing I didn’t like about the scene was Spock shouting Khan. In all honesty, it took me out of the moment & I actually chuckled because I thought it was so over-the-top! It was a very touching and poignant scene and I thought that emotion was robbed by having Spock shouting like that.

I’m honestly torn about the direction I’d like to see the next film take. While I’ve suggested “Doomsday Machine” meets “Errand of Mercy”, it might also be nice to see something original. Perhaps the start of the Klingon/Romulan alliance versus the Federation? Why not have the Romulans upset about Nero’s death? After all, he IS a Romulan & wouldn’t the Federation be upset if someone killed Spock Prime even though he’s from the future? Just saying…

Anyway, I’d like to see something original but if they’re going to borrow ideas from TOS for inspiration, my suggestion is still “TDM” & “EoM”.

282. endeavour crew - May 29, 2013

STID was great- nuff said…………

But has anyone watched ST V lately????

Most of it was cheesy and sucked BUT………………….

My lord- when McCoy has to confront his fathers death?

WOW!

And Klaa was a great Klingon……

ST V I think is underrated……………..IMHO

283. Robman007 - May 29, 2013

@ Karen…all the characters in Alien were written without a specific gender in mind. They had a first initial and last name, but nothing more. Kind of a cool way to do it

Speaking of Peter and Olivia, I kind of look at these new Trek films as taking place in an altered Alternate reality..kinda like how Walternates universe was slightly different then Walters….essentially Spock, using Red Matter, opened up a big giant Walter portal into an alternate reality that was slightly different on the tech scale, along with minor differences like an English Khan and changed that realities past…something like that

284. Robman007 - May 29, 2013

@282…in all honesty, I kinda like Trek 5…I’ll watch it over Generations/Insurrection and Nemesis anyway. It felt like a TOS episode at times..kinda like a part of Season 3.

The camp fire scene is one of my all time favorite scenes in any Star Trek production.

And yes, STID is great, plot holes and all. I plan on going for a 4th and 5th time.

285. Robman007 - May 29, 2013

@281…I would have loved to see, instead of yelling Khan, maybe a quiet growl followed by Spock bashing in a wall or computer, like in Amok Time…

286. Disinvited - May 29, 2013

#224. Spock/Uhura Admirer – May 29, 2013

I have to agree with you: I think the bonding was just a ritual to put “logical”, which we can read as “civilized”, trappings on a rather primitive and yet essential biological function. I think to some extent humans mirror this attitude when we call it “the big nasty”?

I don’t think “the bonding” has anything to do with this essential biological function. Recall in THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK, Spock’s body didn’t have all its marbles when it and Savik addressed its pon farr needs.

#240. dmduncan – May 29, 2013

I dunno…I think Uhock while a great name for a pawn shop chain also reflects many of the disappointed Chock fans’ feelings.

#243. P Technobabble – May 29, 2013

I get your essential appeal to be of, and allow good humor in this topic, but I think you are not making a very effective argument when it boils down to: “Everybody else is doing it and John Jones is ten times worse.” which is a classic enabler type response.

In the 1960s, STAR TREK didn’t have to have the worst racism on the planet in the very fiber of its being to validate their choices to address racism.

#247. dmduncan – May 29, 2013

In the spirit of PT’s call to be of good cheer:

I wish…forgive me, my adolescent Arlene Martel crush that was activated by her Ellison’s DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND performance, came to the fore and went a pon too farr.

287. Bell - May 29, 2013

@280 Mark

Ok lol F&F is my guilty pleasure I admit it. It’s dumb and loud and the acting is usually terrible but hell if I’m not smiling the entire time.

Which brings me to this…I freaking LOVE Letty and Dom. They are true, equal partners. Letty is the Queen and Dom knows it. She can fight, drive and defend herself just as good as the boys and she is never a damsel in distress. The best thing about those films are how they wrote their leading lady. There is never a question that she is as much of a badass as the men. Of course Michelle Rodriguez is known for playing independent, take charge roles, which is why I’m a fan of hers :)

288. Capt Sanders - May 29, 2013

I think we can expect a sequel, but witha reduced budget. This scenario is playing out a lot like superman returns. Go look at the numbers on that film and the studios reaction to it.

289. HubcapDave - May 29, 2013

@282

What really took me out of the movie watching it the first time was the HORRID special effects.

“Captain Kirk is climbing a mountain. Why is climbing the mountain?”

290. dmduncan - May 29, 2013

286: “I wish…forgive me, my adolescent Arlene Martel crush that was activated by her Ellison’s DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND performance, came to the fore and went a pon too farr.”

I saw that for the first time last year. Loved it. Great story. Arlene Martel was beautiful. Very crushworthy.

291. CaptainJon - May 29, 2013

As of today, STID is out-pacing ST09′s 13-day total both domestically and internationally so business is slowly picking up. Let’s not forget that while some Trek fans are disappointed, it’s still rating 87% on rottentomatoes.com, outperforming just about every movie that’s come out in the last two months! I think word-of-mouth will fuel this for another couple weeks before Man of Steel hits.

My point is, I think Paramount will be happy with STID’s business. It might not have had the huge opening the expected but it might have legs to carry it. Time will tell, of course. I think that $190 million was WAAAY too much & they should’ve stayed in the $150-$165 million ballpark which is what they will probably return to for XIII.

My list of possible directors if Abrams can’t return?
-Bryan Singer (huge TNG fan though who knows if he’ll be a fit for new Trek?)
-Brad Bird (he topped Abrams with M:I4, why not STXIII?)
-Rian Johnson (Abrams named him as a good director & I loved Looper)

Anyone else have any suggestions? (Mr. Orci, I’m looking at you!)

292. Karen - May 29, 2013

@207 Robman

Which only goes to show that if you people first, gender second, a whole of crap would be entirely avoided!

I”ve always thought the whole alt-timeline/universe explanation was elegant genius. So simple, so neat, and completely inclusive of classic Trek. Nothing in classic Trek has been changed or disrespected. The reboot is simply one giant game of What If, which is of course the very essence of speculative fiction. I must confess I find the constant bleating about how stuff didn’t happen this way in classic Trek utterly tedious.

What part of alternate timeline, as clearly explained in the first film, do these whiners not understand????

293. HubcapDave - May 29, 2013

@291

Of your list, Rian Johnson would be the most likely. As you said, they will at least try to hold the line on the budget, which means no big name directors will likely be taken on.

294. Bucky - May 29, 2013

I would say I am perfectly okay if we have to wait another 4 years for an Abrams helmed Trek flick. “Into Darkness” not being the billion-dollar grosser that some people pegged it as at the start of year may make Paramount a bit more willing to push for a new director.

As for the 50th anniversary of Star Trek? Less wanting a movie, more than I want a new TV series!

295. r0bt3k - May 29, 2013

I thought it was bad ass, as soon as I heard section 31, all you heard was a lound YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!~ and the theater hehe

loved the idea they used and peter weller is always awesome when hes in badass mode,

glad they fixed the engine room , yes still running on anti beer but , not the same as last hehe

and seriously people, when Khan was kicking everyones ass from left to right was amazing, even when spock tried to neck pinch him but he wasn’t strong enough that was really cool!!!~!

296. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 29, 2013

@290. dmduncan

When I first saw Arlene Martel as T’Pring, I thought she was exquisitely beautiful. However, from my barely teenaged female perspective, I loathed her utterly. How dare she prefer Stonn over my first crush – where was the logic in that? I hope I am a teeny bit more objective by now ;-)

297. Boborci - May 29, 2013

273 jptech

Truly kind words… Thank yoi

298. Photon70 - May 30, 2013

@ 291. CaptainJon – May 29, 2013

Just a silly thought on ST2016.

Star Wars gets a summer 2015 release and lets say JJ takes 2 months off.

Shooting for ST2016 could take place from Sept to Dec 2015, post production taking up most of 2016, in time for a Thanks Giving 2016 release.

Pre-production could begin in May/June 2015.

Its still possible for JJ to direct the 3rd movie, if that gets the sequel.

299. Aly - May 30, 2013

@296-

Lol when I was younger I was angry at her too for being mean to Spock. And STONN? Really? Spock was sooo much cuter :)

It wasn’t until I was older that I came to kinda appreciate her iciness and willingness to go after what she wants. T’Pring was always an interesting character to me. And yes, Arlene Martel was absolutely STUNNING. One of the most beautiful women in Trek. Even through my anger/jealousy I was still digging her looks and that hair! GIrl had it going on lol

300. rogerachong - May 30, 2013

According to boxofficemojo.com as of Tuesday 28th May, STID
13-Day Total: is $159,452,337

Star Trek 2009 at the same point:
13-Day Total: was $158,653,970

Star Trek Into Darkness is presently tracking almost 1 million above Star Trek 2009 at the USA/Canada boxoffice. At that rate it has a good chance to get to at least $250 m domestically.

Unfortunately most young people thought that STID was too heavy and complicated and prefer Fast & Furious 6 that is totally brainless. Also unfortunately there are too many Star Trek fans that nit pick at every little thing whereas the comic book and Star Wars fans couldn’t care less if you feed them raw manure like SW Ep. 1 to 3 and other mindless movies of that ilk. She may not be perfect, but she’s my girl and she is beautiful no matter what haters say.

By the way STID makes way more sense than the Avengers, Titanic, Iron Man 3, Transformers, X-Men, Wolverine, Fast 5, Pirates of the Caribbean 2, 3, 4 and coming soon 5! So I guess that JJ and company are doomed to fail by some peoples reckoning.

Forget the haters @boborci and keep on keeping on. Make it an original story next time though and you will Live Long And Prosper!!

301. Boy - May 30, 2013

@ 280. Mark – May 29, 2013
@274 Karen-

Aw I forgot Peter and Olivia! Yes they are better as well. I would also make a case for Mulder and Scully, Neo and Trinity, Sydney and Vaughn, and Buffy and Angel as being superior couples.

Also, and I’m totally prepared to be verbally smacked for this LOL, but I think Dom and Letty from F&F are a pretty kickass couple. I admit they are pretty dumb, mindless films but that couple is awesome. Letty is every bit as badass and tough as Dom and she takes $hit from no one. Always admired that.
———————————————————————————–

Mark I think you are been a little unfair. most of the couples you mentioned are TV couples they have more than 100+ episode to develop their relationships. S/U just has like 10 minutes from two films that are a little over 2 hours. Also Neo and Trinity are no different from S/U, Trinity was driven by her love for Neo to do things.

May I also add that trinity was a little strong headed and quite annoying and this is what got her killed in the second film. Also their sex scene in Matrix 2 kind of grossed me out (no offence to anyone). the neo and trinity relationship was too in your face and quite over the top.

S/U are more like Aragorn/Arwen their relationship is very subtle, it is not thrown in your face every 5 minutes like some of the couples you mentioned so it is not really fair to compare them.

however I must say one thing, I am glad you love Buffy/Angel…I thought I was the only one who still ships them, it seems like the whole word now prefers buffy/spike. its just plain silly, we all know that buffy loved angel more than anyone else in the world.

Also again I see you like Han and Leia count yourself lucky. a lot of people would have been shipping Leia and Luke if George Lucas did not change the script at the last minute by making them siblings.

302. Ash - May 30, 2013

@ Bell-

Yea I love Dom and Letty too. The Fast and the Furious are terrible films, but I appreciate the way they have a strong, respected female character.

That being said, I’m pissed at the mere idea that the masses could seemingly find something as mind numbingly dumb as F&F6 more interesting than STID. Augh, no way…

303. andreas hurtelli, switzerland - May 30, 2013

i keep thinking and thinking but after having seen into darkness for four times, i can’t find one thing that i did not like. it is such a entertaining movie, full of great ideas and citations. now let’s hope for a new tv show!!

304. Mark - May 30, 2013

@301 Boy-

Yea I get that the tv show couples have more time, and there hasn’t been much S/U in the films, which is why I was just thrown that someone would call Spock and Uhura a supercouple. I suspect now that they were joking (or I hope they were) but when I think of supercouples I think of the ones I did name. I admit I am not a fan of the S/U romance, and I’ve had problems with the way it was played out. I can’t warm to the idea that Spock has a girlfriend, but that’s another topic I won’t get into.

See the Neo/Trinity supercouple to me wasn’t really the romance that I liked, but the way they were both just so kickass. She acted out of love, but she was never just a girlfriend, she was also essential to the story and his journey. Also she was just as skilled a fighter as he was. I do agree about the sex scene lol I could have done without that one.

My little sis got me hooked on Buffy, (something my football friends never let me live down lol) and I gotta say that I was SO surprised to see how much I liked the Buffy/Angel thing. I was always interested. I forget to mention before though…ZOE AND WALSH. Another amazing couple.

As far as couples in sci fi films though, I think Han Solo and Leia are #1. I don’t usually care for any romance in my action/sci fi films but damn was Harrison Ford a badass. The iconic “I love you” ,”I know” moment is something everyone has heard. And even though they didn’t know they were brother and sister at the time, the Luke/Leia kiss will never not gross me out lol

305. Boy - May 30, 2013

@304. Mark – May 30, 2013 ,

Mark, thanks for your reply. I just hope you still like buffy/angel till the end. I must say the spike/buffy relationship can be very appealing there is so much sex between them. However like I tell some of my friends, sex is not the same thing as love.

As for S/U, I would say, give it some time, Uhura did quite a lot in this film. she was in swimming suits ready to swim with the guys and she did save spock at the end. Okay, maybe that can get mixed reviews since it was her boyfriend. I am not sure she would have gone down to save a fellow co worker.

Trinity did everything for Neo, so I don’t think it is fair to give trinity a free pass and not Uhura. Also may I add that uhura is not really an action character unlike trinity. uhura is first and foremost a communications officer.

I also give uhura much praise for facing those violent Klingons. I believe that was her best part in the whole film sometimes I think proving your strength is not by using your fist.

Another thing again is that the relationship between neo and trinity is the central relationship of the matrix trilogy whereas with star trek the central relationship is between kirk and spock. So it is not a fair comparison.

As for luke / han / leia. I must say as well that the luke/leia kiss didn’t gross me out. I initially thought Leia had more chemistry with Luke in comparison to Han but the ‘‘I love you’ and ‘‘I know’’ does seal Han and Leia has one of the ultimate sci -fi couple.

Its so funny how Harrison Ford was the person that insisted that he says ‘I know’. Poor old Lucas, His original script was for Han to say that he loved Leia back.

(Anyone still wondering why Anakin and Padme sucked so much????)

Ironically this is one of the things that made me warm up S/U in the first film when Spock says ‘‘please tell Lt Uhura that I’’ and Kirk cuts him off by saying … ‘‘Spock it will work’’.

That is how I like my romances. I hate the chessy Twilight lines of I love you and I love you too. Sometimes less is more and I think han and leia and spock/uhura represent that.

we don’t need to hear the full 3 words unless it is necessary.

Lastly I think you should let Spock having a girlfriend go. This has nothing to do with uhura. Spock can have a girlfriend because his father who is a full vulan also had a girlfriend , a girllfriend that became his wife and the mother of spock. Sarek loved Amanda so why cant spock love a woman?

Lastly (again) I think S/U has the potential of been a super couple, they were parody on the Simpsons and has received a lot of attention many been positive from pop culture fans and critics including Entertainment Weekly and geek of culture which listed them as on of their top 25 best couple of all time.

A list that included Han/Leia, Aragorn/Arwen and Ron/Hermione. These are some of my favourite couples along with Buffy and angel.

LINK: http://herocomplex.latimes.com/movies/valentines-day-heroes-geek-culture-couples-we-love/

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/26300000/Spock-and-Uhura-Simpsons-parody-spock-and-uhura-26310330-309-500.jpg

Please just keep shipping Buffy/Angel….(LOL)

306. Boy - May 30, 2013

O and I am going to see the film again today…this time in 3D. This is my third viewing.

HAPPY EVERYONE

307. Aurore - May 30, 2013

“Alex: We couldn’t use Khan just as a gimmick, as an excuse to get fans into the theaters. Once we developed the story, suddenly the details of Khan’s life became an even better way to tell it. Only when we decided that Khan really does fit here – and the fans know that Khan is to the series what The Joker is to ‘Batman’ – that’s when we decided we earned it.

Bob: And that’s when we went for it. Khan is the ultimate Easter egg.
Alex: No doubt.

Bob: Khan is the Cadbury Easter egg of ‘Star Trek.’ He is the richest, most delicious, ridiculously sweet Easter egg.
Alex: In our humble opinion.”

Source : movies.yahoo.com
______________

So, what is next for the franchise?

Furthermore, from now on, what’s next for this franchise’s “Joker”, and, more importantly, who is he?

Ricardo Montalbán said Khan had “no nationality”*, he also referred to the character as having a “non-scripted (?) nationality”.* I disagree, for various reasons, but, that is beside the point.

In the new Star Trek, a character described, in Space Seed, as a North Indian man, probably a Sikh, is now portrayed by an Englishman with no backstory to explain the change in ethnicity.

What does it mean for a franchise which from my point of view always tried, amongst other things, to reflect racial, cultural diversity. The show didn’t completely evade the racial (and sexual) stereotypes of the time, evidently, but, from my perspective, it, at least, tried. At a time when, I believe, it was not easy…

Which is why I sincerely hope there will be an article…or two about Khan. His new “appearance” ,etc…on this site. Soon.

* Interview available online ( Ricardo Montalbán-Archive Interview )

________

@ The management,

An e-mail could have been “lost”; you probably receive a fair amount of those everyday.

However, it is possible that you’ll read this post.

If it does not make it to the thread, I know you will have read it.

:)

Thank you for reading.

308. Mark - May 30, 2013

@305 Boy

Ok I’ll just say this quick, because this subject has been rehashed SO many times lol

“Lastly I think you should let Spock having a girlfriend go. This has nothing to do with uhura. Spock can have a girlfriend because his father who is a full vulan also had a girlfriend , a girllfriend that became his wife and the mother of spock. Sarek loved Amanda so why cant spock love a woman?”

My problem is absolutely that I think Spock can’t love someone. Of course he can, he loved his mother and father and Kirk and Uhura. He feels deeply and has all the emotions of humans. And I agree, the problem is not Uhura, it never was for me.

The issue is that I don’t like how the romance plays out. Maybe it’s just the one part of the reboot/new universe I can’t get on board with. A Spock who kisses in every film and has a fight with his girlfriend on missions is not the Spock I want. Don’t get me wrong, I still enjoy this Spock, but it just don’t buy or feel it, no matter how much I try. A more emotional Spock is a Spock I find a bit less interesting. If Uhura was with Kirk I think I would be ok with it. I’ve been yelled at for it before by certain people, but Spock the boyfriend is not my favorite Spock. It’s the character, not the romance. Realistically I know Spock is capable of romance, but after seeing none of it really happen in TOS, something I’ve watched my entire life, I have a very had time accepting it suddenly being there in the reboot.

Sorry, my opinion is just one of millions, but there it is. I get tired the constant fights that pop up over this subject. So there it is :) You say they have supercouple potential, we’ll find out in future films maybe. I’m not gonna hold my breath though.

I don’t know about Simpson parodies or anything else, but I have seen just as many people like it as those who dislike it. If anything it is such a small part of the film that I can ignore it entirely and not miss anything really. So while I don’t like the romance, I don’t really care if it still continues on in later films.

Also I too am going to see STID again today as well! 4th time :) 3D hurts my eyes though, so it’s 2D for me all the way lol

309. Mark - May 30, 2013

Whoops! I had a typo in the last post.

What I meant to say was..

My problem is absolutely NOT that I think Spock can’t love someone. Of course he can, he loved his mother and father and Kirk and Uhura. He feels deeply and has all the emotions of humans. And I agree, the problem is not Uhura, it never was for me.

310. Jemini - May 30, 2013

Recently I read an excellent meta written by Matt Brown about Spock/Uhura
http://tederick.tumblr.com/post/48770921998/love-in-the-time-of-apocalypse-spock-and-uhura
He’s no fangirl or shipper and he made some interesting points. He surely made me see some things under a perspective I didn’t really think about before.

back on topic, @ 305. Boy
I Iike Han/Leia and to a degree Anakin/Padme (mostly because I’m intrigued by his character since always) but, personally, I like Spock/Uhura more. Something about them is more alluring to me and even if they’re a subplot (even more that the afore mentioned pairs from SW, just saying) I think that the writers really did a good job with them.
I guess part of my problem with star wars is that in their romances it doesn’t really use all the potential that the franchise provides. Both star trek and star wars are stories where you have an imaginary reality where humans are interacting with aliens as if they were just people coming from different countries in earth lol and it’s interesting and fascinating because they have this potential of having interspecies/interracial relationships with all the possible implications of that (cultural differences etc) but In star wars you don’t really get the idea of “interspecies” romance IMO
On the other hand, in star trek Spock while half human is really alien both in looks and his behavior and Uhura isn’t our typical white american leading lady either (and while both of them are bilingual their main language isn’t english) so it feels less like “normal human couple of white american leading actors wearing futuristic costumes” and more a couple from an imaginary future far away from us where people from different planets can meet, fall in love and have relationships beyond their cultural differences. And in the trek universe it’s considered perfectly normal as in our world it’s perfectly normal (even if some people still have a hard time accepting it) to date someone whose culture and ethnicity is totally different from yours. In short, star trek shows how we could possibly evolve and how the universe can become a more familiar place and the confines expanded, Star wars is more glamorous, it’s more about “how cool” the sci-fi genre is. At least in my opinion (and I’m talking as a fan of both franchises because yes it’s possible lol)

311. P Technobabble - May 30, 2013

286. Disinvited

Hey, thanks for the feedback.
The suggestion that I was saying ” “Everybody else is doing it and John Jones is ten times worse” was not really the gist of what I was trying to say, so I guess I didn’t say it very well. I don’t really think that Star Trek should go for the “sexy spots” just because other movies are doing it, or even just for the fun of it. I’m just wondering if there is some reason why Star Trek shouldn’t? Pointing out the sexy attributes of other films was not meant to be an excuse for Star Trek to get away with it — it’s just the state of a good deal of cinema these days.

PS: “Demon With A Glass Hand” — awesome episode!

312. Karen - May 30, 2013

@301 Boy

Gotta say I like your couples … but for me? Buffy and Spike. He didn’t try to be all manly and chivalric and protectory over her the way Angel did. Not that I didn’t appreciate those two, but I’m a Spike gal through and through. *g* Cos I really do think that was love. A different kind of love, far more complicated at the end. But real and genuine.

But then, I always thought Spike was intrinsically the better man. William was a much nicer man than Liam, pre vamping.

And I’ll stop it there, for fear of steering the conversation wrong. *g*

313. Charles Trotter - May 30, 2013

Question for boborci –

Why did Khan transport to Qo’noS instead of beaming right to the ‘Vengeance?’ He knew the ‘Vengeance’ was still in its spacedock; why not take it over right then and use it to continue his attack on Starfleet?

314. IDIC Lives! - May 30, 2013

I have mixed feelings regarding poor old Spock and Uhura, or rather poor old Spock and any woman aboard the Enterprise. Spock is a Vulcan renegade to even be in Star Fleet. How many other Vulcans are aboard or ever were?

Note: I think JJ and company should have more Vulcans aboard and similar humanoid species but we mostly get “showy aliens” to satisfy the kids in the audience. Mr. Longhead, Ms Bronzeface- with- scales, and Scotty’s little oyster man. A subtle feature like pointed ears just doesn’t meet the “wham bang” of modern adventure/science fiction movies. I can see why TOS only wanted Nimoy to have the pointed ears, they didn’t have that many extras running around but the new movies should be able to give us more subtle humanoids too, including Vulcans.

Anyway, poor old Spock is doing well just to be in Star Fleet and put up with human emotion. To be engaged in what seems to be the only blatant, obvious, weepy, kissy onboard romance thus far, is just more than a Vulcan should have to handle. It causes Spock to not only be vulnerable occasionally, which is great – but basically all the time, which is ridiculous.

What you end up with is a Vulcan who is a mass of seething repressed emotion and is in danger of not even BEING Vulcan therefore. Roddenberry gave us the logical, repressed Vulcan race; they are what they are.

How would it go if Kirk decided to repress emotions all the time? Soon, you simply would not have the Kirk character.

Of all people, Spock should not and probably would not (per the original character), give Uhura deep kisses in public, have lovers’ spats on the ship, and put himself in the position of almost constantly having to deal with emotion. He’s doing all he can just to be amongst a bunch of silly humans.

I love STID – LOVE IT. But to put Spock in such a constant vulnerable position, and for mostly the same reason (a love affair on board) not only gets old but changes something very basic in the character of Spock (yes, yes, an alternate reality but still, for a main character–?)

An outburst once in a while is fascinating, but to go around the ship in a puddle of mixed love/anger emotions like a petulant child almost all the time? It’s enough to kill a Vulcan.

If Spock had had his way, Uhura would have been on the Farragut and that probably would have ended the affair at the Academy. He apparently wanted that. How often would they get together in that case? Not often.

Of course Uhura would have died over Vulcan via Nero in the Farragut. I dearly love the character of Uhura too and hope they let her fly on her own again next time.

315. Killamarshtrek - May 30, 2013

@ Boborci

Hi bob,
As you were asking for ideas for the next film, I do have a specific story element that’s very big & controversial but also very appropriate for the 50th anniversary. Is there a way to send it you so no-one else can see it (I wouldn’t want to spoil it for everyone if you liked it). All I can say is the fate of the new timeline would be at risk and it would put one of the main characters in their biggest ever no win scenario (bigger than sacrificing your own life in the reactor chamber to save the ship!).

316. Mad Mann - May 30, 2013

RE: Khan is to Kirk as Joker is to Batman?

Does anyone, other than Kurtzman and Lindelof, actually believe this? Khan is a good antagonist, but I do not believe he is on the level as the Joker. The Batman and Joker storyline is like the Yin and Yang, two opposites. Khan, to me, is just another “villain -of-the-week” from the original series, made into a great villain by TWOK, but still dealt with. I don’t believe that there is a Joker-level villain in Star Trek.

BTW: when Orci said he initally fought against Khan, I gained all kinds of new respect for him. I just wish he won that fight…..

317. IDIC Lives! - May 30, 2013

One more thing: In TOS, it was obvious Kirk as Captain could not/would not/should not– have a love affair or even a one night stand, with a crew member. It really pained Kirk not to, as we know, but for all Kirk’s follies, he never did have a love affair with a crew member that we know of. I assume the same rule/wise course of behavior — also applies to the First Officer.

Now, simply due to the alternate timeline, an affair between 2 top officers (one being the First Officer) is right in the forefront? A couple’s counseling session takes place right as they get ready to confront the Klingons and Harrison??

If I had a choice, I’d take the original timeline because I know I’d be safer!

318. Exverlobter - May 30, 2013

Here is a great summary of major Plotholes in STID.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/inconsistencies-trekxi.htm#stid

319. IDIC Lives! - May 30, 2013

To hell with potholes, ever count the major potholes in TOS? Yes, there is good science fiction which amounts to science speculation, and fantasy-science fiction which can also be “bad” science fiction or ok fantasy. I would love Trek to be science speculation, something that COULD BE in 300 years. Alas, they feel that would not be big box office and they are probably right.

The 2009 film left a black hole somewhere in the Solar System, not a great idea; they jettisoned the cores and then used the Enterprise’s great power to speed away from the black hole, as well as the boost given by the exploding/imploding cores (plural? By STID there was one core). But the Enterprise had no power without her core(s).

In TOS, Val, the great machine who/which ran an entire planet’s weather system and environment, had to be fed fruit once or twice a day or it would lose power (??). Frozen Sulu and company could have been rescued with a shuttle (“Enemy Within). The list is long.

It’s fun to point out the potholes but then for the sake of our beloved Star Trek living on, time to simply enjoy STID.

320. Mad Mann - May 30, 2013

@319

Yes, there were many plotholes in the episodes since they are rushed into production, but I never understand why so many movies have plotholes. I mean, those screenplays go through many, many drafts, are story-boarded out, and have different takes on the same scene: so why do so many plotholes exist in movies? Do the film-makers rather display spectacle over substance?

I hate the phrase “just turn your brain off and enjoy the movie” or “it’s only a movie.” Those are just cop-outs. A well-made and enjoyable movie should be made with no plot-holes.

321. Aurore - May 30, 2013

“…A well-made and enjoyable movie should be made with no plot-holes.”
_______

That’s a bit radical isn’t it?

:)

Personally, I will say they should be made with not too many plot-holes.
And, no “Cadbury Easter egg” for me, thank you.

…I say this as someone who LOVES chocolate…

:)

322. ados - May 30, 2013

Capt Picard has never…ever had a slice of pizza…until now….
http://www.today.com/entertainment/patrick-stewart-tries-his-first-ever-pizza-slice-tweets-results-6C10128194

323. govna - May 30, 2013

I think the writers should have taken some advice from ST6: TUC.

“just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily mean we must do that thing.”

see what i did there?

324. shawn - May 30, 2013

For me Trek 09 was a great star trek ORIGINS movie.

But STID was aawwwwweeeeesssoooommmmmmeeee! My god, its everything a good trek needs. After the third time i saw it, i found it was so weel written. Everyone is better in this, Kirk spock, scotty. Mckoy and sulu are preety much the same , chekov a bit less than 09. Pike good as usual, and the vilain well both of them were astonishing. Khan wow…. fuck Montebellan, Cumby is a hell of an actor!

5 year mission… as Khan would say: SHALL WE BEGIN?

Trek is back on track! Better and cooler than ever.

325. LogicalLeopard - May 30, 2013

184. Trekkiegal63 – May 29, 2013

The gratuitous underwear shot once again rears its ugly head in JJ Abram’s Star Trek Into Darkness. Alice Eve’s Dr. Carol Marcus seems ready to play a pivotal role in the plot, but in the end it becomes apparent she is present mainly so Kirk, and the fanboy audience, can ogle her. She then is sent crying to her Daddy, and ends up looking a bit of a helpless damsel in distress. She takes over underwear duty from Zoe Saldana’s Nyota Uhura. Saldana has made a name for herself as a tough, action-orientated actress. Sad, then, to see her reduced to almost a lovesick teenager, unable to focus properly on her job because of her intense feelings for Mr Spock.

*************************************

*LOL* @ Underwear Duty. That’s really what it is, isn’t it?

“Okay, so who’s going to be in their skivvies this time? Lets see….Zoe did it last time, so lets put it on the new girl. ”

“But…..how are we going to manage that? Dr. Marcus is a weapons specialist.”

“Duh…weapons. Weapons are dirty. Have her change into a coverall or something.”

As for Zoe, she did kind of seem like a dangerous Christine Chapel, didn’t she? Chapel seemed to be always pining after Spock in one way or another.

****************************

Agreed. I particularly liked how Scotty was handled. And yes, more Chekov would have been great. It would have been fun to see more of him struggling to handle engineering (and boy would I love to be a fly on the wall to a conversation between Scotty and Chekov just after the events of the films climax, while Kirk was in recovery, lol). The small, interspersed ‘personality’ moments really propel a good Trek to a great one.

********************************

*LOL* Maybe we’ll see a reference from it in the next movie, something about how Scotty assigned Chekov to scour Jefferies tubes for a month. The “personality” moments definitely propel Trek to greatness. Speaking of, I really loved Chris Pine’s acting. Yes, he comes across as a very immature Kirk (like he’s supposed to) but I loved his little acting additions and spins, like when he rolls his eyes at Spock before the conference in the Daystrom room, his reaction when Scotty hangs up on him, and of course his delivery of the line of all lines….”I just wanna….rip his bangs off.” *LOL*

326. CaptainJon - May 30, 2013

@298. Photon 70

I recognize that J.J. could still do ST2016 if the production schedule lines up just right post-Ep VII, but that’s the thing: it has to line up just right. I’m all for JJ doing a 3rd but at this point I think we should expect someone else to take the director’s chair. You never know, though!

327. LogicalLeopard - May 30, 2013

195. baby – May 29, 2013

Trekiegirl63,

you make some valid good points. however I believe that a lot of people have mixed feeling of the characters: black widow and the princess from Brave. here is an article of Princess Merida,

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/05/10/brave-iron-man-3-and-the-faux-feminism-of-armed-women/?partner=yahootix.

As for black widow I think she took a little criticism. There were a few critics who said that scarlet Johansson ass was very distracting in the film and she played the stereotypical seductress.in the sense that she uses her sex appeal to take down the bad guys.

Point is that it is not good for a female character to have her body be more memorable than her acting or performance.

**********************************************
I haven’t seen Iron Man III yet, but I don’t think that was the case with Avengers. But you have to remember that the Black Widow in the comic books was originally more than a “superhero”, she was a spy. And using seduction in that line of work was something that was required. Of course, like I said, I havent’ seen Iron Man III, so I dont know how she came across in that situation.

As far as her body being distracting, well, that’s more on the viewer than the role. ScarJo is wearing an outfit pretty much like her comic book counterpart does, and if a person can’t concentrate enough on what’s going on the screen than what she looks like, well, that’s on them. Hey, I can acknowledge that she’s a very desireable woman, but I didn’t have a problem watching Avengers and appreciating her role more than her physique.

********************************

Also again may a I also add that the character of black widow was driven by a man to do things in Avengers. Her relationship with Hawkeye was what made her want too take down Loki.

*****************************

Eh….I’m not sure about that. That was added incentive. In the movie, her and Hawkeye were portrayed as sort of buddies because they were the only non-powered “superheroes” on the team. I think they also sort of alluded to the fact that there was a closeness or past relationship with them. This is from the comic books, where Black Widow and Hawkeye were an item of sorts. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure Widow manipulated Hawkeye into doing some criminal stuff, as both of them started off as villians. I think Loki destroying the world is enough reason to go after Loki, but him taking control of an ex-lover, but current respected co-worker puts a little extra on it.

*******************************

Even Loki kind of ridiculed her for been in love. Black widow is still no different from Uhura. All these women, Not all the time but most of the time are driven by their love for their boyfriends.

********************************

But Loki is a liar and a manipulator. Think Khan, and how he used an ounce of truth to make a pound of dissent.

328. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@307. Aurore,
“Ricardo Montalbán said Khan had “no nationality”*, he also referred to the character as having a “non-scripted (?) nationality”.*

I recall this. What do you think Montalban meant? Nationality implies a specific loyalty, a place from which your passport is issued, not necessarily race, or ethnicity. As far as Khan having a nationality, I would go along with the notion he did not. Perhaps even a man without a nation to call home, regardless of his outward ethnic appearance. Was he a Sikh? They certainly tried to heavily imply that with his costumes and pseudo meditation rituals, at least some kind of spirituality, but does not necessarily imply he was an Indian. Clearly he had a race, as intended by the producers, though some would suggest his genetic engineering complicated exact identification by combining DNA from many different races. But is that what Montalban was saying, or did he simply misunderstand the nature of the statement Space Seed was making, still caught up in mid-20th Century pride of nationalism and not wishing to offend the citizens or governments of any country?

329. IDIC Lives! - May 30, 2013

@320 Sorry ’bout the “pot holes” for “plot holes” but to me, plot holes are pot holes, so___ anyhow, I usually do not settle for bad writing, thus plot holes either. I guess I am bias where Trek is concerned. I just want it to live – with some semblance of intelligence and what it should-be. Over all, STID is this for me.

330. shawn - May 30, 2013

To all the people who are complaining that STID is a rehash of STWOK i say this:

Why do another superman, batman, spiderman, captain america, totall recall, aliens, predator and much more….

Why do spinoffs?

Why see the joker again or cat women, lex luther, ZOD.

There is so many movies that are another take on things, especially dramas and horror movies.

It was only logical to go with Khan, like the joker in batman. And its not anything like STWOK, nothing expet Khan and the spock/kirk scene… nothing… the timelime is different, admiral marcus wasn’t there, the fed did not think military wise because nero never destroyed the Kelvin… It was a remake of the best star trek movie to date with todays sfx and it was fantastic.

If they remake the next Gen crew in 10 years from now … Wouldnt you want to see the Borg? Or Q? Common! Give the writters some credit , they pulled of two fucking good movie that people loved. not just fans, everybody loved it… isnt that a game changer!

If you dont like remakes you can watch all the other star treks on dvd which you already saw more than once im sure. Thats kind of a rehash no? watching them over and over again feeling nostalgic. You have to admit , Adam west was way better than Christian Bale lolllll If you get the point!

331. shawn - May 30, 2013

@ 329

please list all the plot holes you talk about?

332. shawn - May 30, 2013

I mean @ 328

please list all the plot holes you talk about?

333. PaulB - May 30, 2013

#329/330 — Check the link at #318 for a great list of STID’s plot holes. No reason for IDIC Lives to retype/restate the obvious and already well-documented problems with this film.

334. IDIC Lives! - May 30, 2013

Hey, you want Mad Mann #320, not me. He or she gave a link to all the plot holes in STID. I did not.

335. donna lee tabor - May 30, 2013

loved it! thought it was better than 2009. also saw 2009 on screen for the first time. saw so many things i missed on it.

336. Disinvited - May 30, 2013

#317. IDIC Lives! – May 30, 2013

I think I’d have to object to characterizing what Spock and Uhura are sharing as an “affair”. You’d have to stretch things awful far to claim that Spock is cheating on his and T’Pring’s childhood mental bond in which I am pretty sure he didn’t have a say. Also, the S/U alt-relationship developed outside of being assigned to any ship. And that relationships were permitted on starships was pretty much made clear when Prime Kirk was officiating at a wedding of two of his own crew members on his own ship.

#324. LogicalLeopard – May 30, 2013

I think the only way they can put the gratuitous underwear shots to rest is to give it to Keenser in the next flick.

337. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

292. Karen …I agree. I don’t get it either. The Alternate Reality deal is not that hard to understand…although the whiners whined and cried about “old trek” when it was on the air and in theaters, so it will never end. Remember, TNG was not popular when it aired. It was most hated…most haters also seem to have liked DS9, which is far more action based then 2009/STID have been.

338. shawn - May 30, 2013

@ 318/329/331

Ive read the plot holes… I mean for sure some of them are correct and questionnable but for god sakes its looking for trouble where there is none.

Most of the plot hole serve the script , it’s a movie, if everything was so accurate writers whould never be abble to wright anything, and this is even harder with sci-fi. Plot holes have and will always exist in movies.

Moviegoers dont know that the enterprise cant go in the water or think why did they not transport… putting the enterprise in the water in good cinematagrophy. Its questionnable for sure buts it looks cool and serves the plot.

Remember x-men 1… when magneto toys with all the police cars and xavier trys to stop him by taking sabbertooths mind. When everything is finisheg the helicopter arrives in the nick of time. You imagine if the helicopter arrived earlier or even worst late. magneto would have to wait for it. while doing nothing… It serves the plot! Why do vilains talk too much before killing the hero…. for the hero to find an escapoe route and create tension, it serves to plot.

I know, transporters dont beam that far, it dosent take that time to go to kronos, or the enterprise is ??? meters long and not ????. But they dont existed anyways. And besides hard core fans nobody knows this information.

my point is yes there is questionnable plot holes but that dosent make it a bad movie because if it does, we should all stop watching movies , tv shows reading books and only go to work to a 9 to 5 job were everything is so, well, accurate and boring!

339. Pot Bellied Vulcan - May 30, 2013

A few Plot holes are one thing, but when almost every single plot point has plot holes the size of Uranus, it’s quite another: along with the whole WOK plagiarism in this bizarro universe.

340. Hugh Hoyland - May 30, 2013

#315

That means Bob (and the rest of the SC) is expecting to write the sequel then. Cool!

As far as an idea for the sequel…well lets see…they go to – no wait -there’s an alien force that enters the galaxy and…no no I got it – a Starfleet janitor accidently opens Khans cryo-tube, ah –

This may take a while

341. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

@318…cool link, but again, seems written by some nitpicky comic book guy dork who has a beef with these new films and did not pay attention. Lost credibility as an article at times..

Here are my issues..

“The effect of the ship going to warp is different than in “Star Trek (2009)” (and different than in the Prime Universe anyway). It looks like the ship leaves behind some sort of wake.”

- Star Trek ALWAYS changed the visuals of the ship at warp. Stupid nit to pick….NEXT

-Nitpicked the spelling Qo’noS. Folks who were around for Star Trek VI remember that Qo’nos was spelled “Kronos”…the name of the ship was Kronos 1. It was on the model packaging, the novelization, the script…TNG changed it to be more Klingon sounding.

“The K’normian ship does not leave the Enterprise through the big shuttlebay door, but through some never seen before lateral hatch.”

- Yet another stupid nit to pick. The Enterprise-D had many smaller shuttle bay doors. The Enterprise Refit had several hatches that could possibly be used as an alternate shuttlebay. NEXT

“The Klingon who takes off his mask in “Star Trek In to Darkness” has forehead ridges…..This one Klingon may be an exception, but there wasn’t a single exception among dozens of Klingons we could see in TOS.”

- Stupid nitpick. The Klingons were RETCONNED in TMP to have headridges. THAT is why they all were flat headed. It’s not outside the realm of possiblity that a select few escaped the crappy virus plot of Enterprise.

“The Klingons do nothing after their patrol ships have been destroyed by Khan.”

- I may be mistaken, but the film made it known that Khan destroyed the Klingon patrol ships BEFORE they could send out a message…NEXT

“McCoy says that the people in the chambers have been frozen for 300 years.”

- Again, pay the hell attention. McCoy said he was 300 years OLD, not frozen for 300 years…

“Torpedo mystery #7: Khan has 72 followers in cryotubes, and exactly 72 of the torpedoes were built. Wouldn’t that raise suspicion? Why didn’t Khan simply build a few more of them, let’s say 80?”

-Again, pay attention….just before the bomb went off in the section 31 facility you can see one or more of these torpedoes sitting to the side. He built more..he used 72 to smuggle his people. Marcus found out, found the bodies..

I can go on and on, but that article is a prime example of the extreme lengths that some whiney assed fan boy will go too in order to pick a nit becaues he/she does not like the new films. I’ve got a idea…PAY THE HELL ATTENTION TO THE DAMN FILM.

342. IDIC Lives! - May 30, 2013

#334 I didn’t comment on T’Pring at all, that’s someone else. But , yes, crew members got married, or almost, in “Balance of Terror,” but Kirk’s freak out in “Naked Time” was about not being able to notice, touch, make love to–crew women and there are other references to this in TOS. Kirk goes to a nice little planet for R&R.

Spock isn’t just a crew member, he is First Officer. Do the rules or the standard (to say the least) apply only to the captain? Those 2 officers would be the main ones to send crew members on dangerous missions or otherwise run into the problem of crew members who “go together.” Let me put it this way, if I were captain, I would try VERY HARD not to get involved with a crew member even if there were no rule.

Just a thought, maybe in the next movie, two gay crew members can be married by the captain? I suppose that would lose some of the box office in the bible belt.

Which brings me to, STID has a definite message on private security, war-mongering, and attacks from within a faction of the government, but it is not quite as daring or overt as a few of TOS’s messages. Each time I hear Shatner say, “Stop the war – NOW!….” in “Day of the Dove,” I remember Vietnam and how we opposed the American presence there.

343. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

@339…so what about Riker and Troi? Are they exempt from fan boy rage because they were “old Trek”….Riker, the first officer of the Enterprise, got MARRIED to Troi, even WHEN he was on orders to be Captain of a ship SHE was going to serve on…

Riker and Ro Laren….Worf and Troi…Torres and Paris, Kira and Odo. Not the first time that a senior officer or senior ships officers have had a romance on a starship.

I’m not a fan of the Uhura/Spock because it pushes McCoy out of the “big three” dynamic, but I’m not opposed to it happening. Alternate Universe Spock is not normal universe Spock. He’s had emotional events occur in his life that cause him to behave more Human…losing his mother, his planet, seeing his Father ADMIT to blatant emotional reasoning for marrying his mother…different Spock for a different day…

344. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

@ Moviegoers dont know that the enterprise cant go in the water or think why did they not transport… putting the enterprise in the water in good cinematagrophy. Its questionnable for sure buts it looks cool and serves the plot.

It sure was silly and unnessessary, but damn did it look badass when the Enterprise came out of the water and bolted for the Volcano. Loved that visual and plan to make some background wallpaper out of that shot when the film is released on DVD/blu-ray.

All in all, great job by ILM of doing shots of the Enterprise that MADE it look pretty. Love the ship. Love that it was not scrapped either.

345. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

Oh, and piggy backing on my blasting the nit pick link…

…they list a nit as the Enterprise should have been nothing more then scrap, yet it was back at the end of the film…..

THE DAMN ENTERPRISE-E was in far WORSE shape then this one, yet was repaired. The Enterprise D SHOULD have been repaired, but they needed a new ship to milk merchandising.

346. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

This is easy enough.

Khan is the product of selected breeding, born and bred to rule.

He becomes the ruler of a transnational empire, from Asia through the entire Middle East.

Dozens of what we call nations today end up under Khan’s yoke.

>327. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013
@307. Aurore,
“Ricardo Montalbán said Khan had “no nationality”*, he also referred to the character as having a “non-scripted (?) nationality”.*

I recall this. What do you think Montalban meant? Nationality implies a specific loyalty, a place from which your passport is issued, not necessarily race, or ethnicity. As far as Khan having a nationality, I would go along with the notion he did not. Perhaps even a man without a nation to call home, regardless of his outward ethnic appearance.

347. Mad Mann - May 30, 2013

@342: The Ent-D should have been repaired? What? The ENTIRE star-drive section blew up and the saucer crashed into that planet! I mean, yeah, the saucer could have been salvaged for parts, but it was beyond repair.

348. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

And let’s not forget the epic marriage (and bachelor and bachelorette parties!) of Worf and Jadzia Dax.

People hook up all the time in Star Trek. Like in life.

>340. Robman007 – May 30, 2013
@339…so what about Riker and Troi? Are they exempt from fan boy rage because they were “old Trek”….Riker, the first officer of the Enterprise, got MARRIED to Troi, even WHEN he was on orders to be Captain of a ship SHE was going to serve on…

Riker and Ro Laren….Worf and Troi…Torres and Paris, Kira and Odo. Not the first time that a senior officer or senior ships officers have had a romance on a starship.

349. Aurore - May 30, 2013

327. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013
“I recall this. What do you think Montalban meant? Nationality implies a specific loyalty, a place from which your passport is issued, not necessarily race, or ethnicity. As far as Khan having a nationality, I would go along with the notion he did not. Perhaps even a man without a nation to call home, regardless of his outward ethnic appearance. Was he a Sikh? They certainly tried to heavily imply that with his costumes and pseudo meditation rituals, at least some kind of spirituality, but does not necessarily imply he was an Indian. Clearly he had a race, as intended by the producers, though some would suggest his genetic engineering complicated exact identification by combining DNA from many different races. But is that what Montalban was saying, or did he simply misunderstand the nature of the statement Space Seed was making, still caught up in mid-20th Century pride of nationalism and not wishing to offend the citizens or governments of any country?”

________________

I loved your post.

I wondered what he meant. At first, too.

Then, I thought of a discussion on this site where a fellow fan had said, amongst other things, that a case could be made in favour of an Hispanic actor portraying Khan.

In The Wrath of Khan Ricardo Montalbán wore no “brown” make-up. Besides, if I remember correctly, there was no mention whatsoever of his character’s nationality.

Thus, I thought he might have played this Khan as a “non-Indian” character, if you will. In other words, when he said “no nationality etc…” he was not referring to the “Khan” he had portrayed in Space Seed…

I thought a change in ethnicity had already occurred then (1982), as it were. I may be wrong, though. But, that was my take on his statements.

And, this is something I had to think about due to the debates on the question I had followed online.

However, as far as I am concerned , it was the same character who had somewhat changed due to the passing of time. I did not need to be reminded of who he was; I already knew.

After all, for me, Ricardo Montalbán was simply reprising a role he had made his own, years before.

350. Mad Mann - May 30, 2013

Well, I just hope the Enterprise does NOT get destroyed in the third movie.

351. dmduncan - May 30, 2013

321 CC
307 Aurore

Perhaps what Montalban meant (but not in these exact words) was that Khan was an Illuminist, a Cosmopolitanist. He may have emerged from the Sikh community and ethnically have been a North Indian, but the primary goal of the perfectibilists is world control, and rising above one’s particular group is a necessary feature of that. They must be able to appeal to certain racial groups to gradually destroy the identities of those groups and to merge them into something the Novus Ordo Seclorum can work with.

E pluribus unum.

352. The River Temoc - May 30, 2013

@121: “Evolve or die, you purists!”

This movie recycled an old character, and the last fifth of the movie or so was almost a remake of TWOK. Surely you can see the irony in your comment?

353. IDIC Lives! - May 30, 2013

@345 Simple answer for me, I did not get into TNG although my daughter was part of the “atmosphere” at first and I saw several episodes. My reference is only TOS, the theatrical releases with that crew, and the 2 new films. I will say, Worf, Riker, and all, were a different era on the Trek timeline so maybe the rules loosened up re captains going with crew members by the time they came along. But that is just conjecture. Truth is, I was only referring to TOS on which the new movies are based–not the rest of the Trek shows. If you bring in too many of the other Trek series, things indeed get confused because they were OF their own time and “rules.” It’s like bringing in WW1 practices in to apply to an alternate dimension of the Afghanistan war.

354. Disinvited - May 30, 2013

#339. IDIC Lives! – May 30, 2013

I only mentioned T’Pring in trying to grasp why you appeared to intentionally signal that S/U’s relationship is taboo or filled with impropriety by characterizing it as an “affair”. The only thing I could think of was Spock’s mental bonding to T’Pring.

355. IDIC Lives! - May 30, 2013

@339 Since when is “affair” a negative word? An impropriety? Hell no. I never signaled “taboo” either. I said it is a love affair (a.k.a. “an affair”).

356. CAPT KRUNCH - May 30, 2013

I have seen it in all 3 formats now and 3D IMAX blows it away. As of today ID hasdone a little under $800,000 over ST09 for the first 13 days. I really expected more by now…but who would have guessed that Fast and Furious “6″ would be killing the box office..I didn’t Hangover would be much competition and will most likely fall off after this weekend. With After Earth coming out tomorrow will ID drop any further down the rankings? At least foreign markets ar fairing better that ST09… ID only needs about 27 million to beat 09′s total

357. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Well, one thing that is consistent through all the Trek series is that the captain doesn’t screw around with the staff, er, subordinates on the crew.

But Spock isn’t the captain. And the Spock of the original timeline is much more of an ascetic than reboot Spock, who is almost emo at times in how he acts.

I seriously doubt that the original Spock would hook up with Uhura. But this Spock is different.

This Kirk is different, too. He’s much more of a frat boy skirt chaser than Shatner’s portrayal. The original Kirk, for all his storied womanizing, wasn’t really that much of a womanizer. He certainly never hooked up with anybody on the crew.

This is something the current writers/producers came up with. I think it’s interesting, to a point.

>350. IDIC Lives! – May 30, 2013
@345 Simple answer for me, I did not get into TNG although my daughter was part of the “atmosphere” at first and I saw several episodes. My reference is only TOS, the theatrical releases with that crew, and the 2 new films. I will say, Worf, Riker, and all, were a different era on the Trek timeline so maybe the rules loosened up re captains going with crew members by the time they came along. But that is just conjecture. Truth is, I was only referring to TOS on which the new movies are based–not the rest of the Trek shows. If you bring in too many of the other Trek series, things indeed get confused because they were OF their own time and “rules.” It’s like bringing in WW1 practices in to apply to an alternate dimension of the Afghanistan war.

358. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

… Referring to Starfleet fraternization practices of the TOS era, it occurs to me that we saw the first officer of the very first Enterprise, which of course predates TOS, have a relationship with a fellow yet subordinate officer.

That would T’Pol, the sultry Vulcan science officer turned first officer, with Trip, the chief engineer.

I do agree that the original Spock wouldn’t do this. But Nimoy’s take, which I prefer, is that of the true ascetic and Vulcan mystic struggling mightily with his human half.

>350. IDIC Lives! – May 30, 2013
@345 Simple answer for me, I did not get into TNG although my daughter was part of the “atmosphere” at first and I saw several episodes.

359. Kevin- TNG - May 30, 2013

I loved the movie, but if you really want a TOS fix, check this out. Just amazing!!

http://vimeo.com/66784863

360. Trek in a Cafe - May 30, 2013

no retKhanning necessary.

Right now, Khan rules a corporate Empire.

He is hidden in the folds, on the board, not ruling a nation state because that’s too boring.

Later, when “people” will wake up to the “domination” of their water supply, genetically modified food, controlling the monetary values. They will prosecute him and his “genetically superior” team.

So he’s actually in power right now… you just don’t get it yet…. !

361. Captain, USS Northstar - May 30, 2013

@277 — Thanks for posting that article. I agree with the reviewer — Trek is best on the small screen and echo similar enthusiasm for a new series.

362. Josh C. - May 30, 2013

So, day 13, and Into Darkness Day 13 (post-Memorial Day) is about $800,000 a head of 2009 Day 13 (pre-Memorial Day). 2009 should take the lead again after it’s Memorial Day numbers are added to the comparison, but overall it’s tracking pretty closely.

Into Darkness will definitely pass $160 million today, and should definitely pass $170 million and probably $180 million domestically million this upcoming weekend.

363. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

YES!

Khan Noonien Singh is the true leader of Quantum, the vastly powerful transnational organization behind it all in Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace.

We know that Dominic Greene was just one of the senior executives of Quantum, and we only saw some of the leadership at that little confab at the opera in Austria that Bond busted up.

It even has a Star Trek type name!

>357. Trek in a Cafe – May 30, 2013
no retKhanning necessary.

Right now, Khan rules a corporate Empire.

He is hidden in the folds, on the board, not ruling a nation state because that’s too boring.

Later, when “people” will wake up to the “domination” of their water supply, genetically modified food, controlling the monetary values. They will prosecute him and his “genetically superior” team.

So he’s actually in power right now… you just don’t get it yet…. !

364. Philip - May 30, 2013

I have a question… Why is it that Iron Man 3, like Star Trek Into Darkness, pulls the same plot device, making people think one guy in particular is the true villain of the film, and meanwhile the guy who was the villain was not really seen at all in the trailers?

Talk about copying the same story arc. Mandarin turns out to be more or less comic relief, and Khan turns out to being more of a sympathetic character in terms of the REAL villain of the film, Admiral Marcus…

Additionally, I’ve heard rumblings that General Zod in Man of Steel may not even be the true villain of the picture, that in fact his female sidekick who we’ve not seen much of in the trailers will be the true bad heavy of the film…

Why the heck is Hollywood copying so much from recent films????

Then you had Skyfall copying the same kind of villain aspects of Dark Knight with Joker and Silva.

Just seems a bit much.

365. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

@360..he’s the leader of Quantum, but he was created by Dr William Bell and Dr Walter Bishop when they worked for Kelvin Genetics doing genetic manipulation and enhancement experients for the Gov. HAHA!

366. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Don’t forget that Loki’s true plan in The Avengers hinged on, wait for it, getting captured!

Like the Joker in The Dark Knight.

Like Silva in Skyfall.

AND like … John Harrison/”Khan” in Star Trek Into Darkness!

>361. Philip – May 30, 2013

367. Josh C. - May 30, 2013

363 William Bradley –

well, I haven’t seen Skyfall, but in Into Darkness I think it works a bit different. I’m not sure Khan necessarily intended to get caught, but it ended up working to his advantage because Kirk was put into a situation where he HAD to team up with Khan, giving Khan the ability to commandeer the Vengeance.

So yes, getting caught ENABLED Khan to gain the advantage, but I’m not really sure it was his plan from the start, like Loki and the Joker

368. Trekkiegal63 - May 30, 2013

#340. Robman007:

…so what about Riker and Troi? Are they exempt from fan boy rage because they were “old Trek”….Riker, the first officer of the Enterprise, got MARRIED to Troi, even WHEN he was on orders to be Captain of a ship SHE was going to serve on…

Riker and Ro Laren….Worf and Troi…Torres and Paris, Kira and Odo. Not the first time that a senior officer or senior ships officers have had a romance on a starship.

Probably not what you intended with this response, but Trek does seem to be a case in point that the mass majority of female characters are placed into a romantic pairing at all costs. Makes me wonder what would have happened with Tasha Yar had Denise Crosby stayed with the show (rhetorical… we know what would have happened to her, the real question is who would they have paired her with) as a side note, and for the record, may I just say how awesome it was to have a female chief of security?! But anyway, yeah, the ‘lets-insert-a-romantic-pairing-everywhere-and-define-our-females-characters-by-them’ thing is getting old.

Thank goodness for Janeway.

But, admittedly, I’m still rather bitter that Troi’s role in “Nemesis” centered around her getting married and then mind-raped (AGAIN!). And this after Sirtis went on record as saying that she was so happy that Troi finally get some individual character development and a uniform in the latter seasons of TNG *sigh*.

369. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@338. Robman007,
“McCoy said he was 300 years OLD, not frozen for 300 years…”

I must admit I need to see the film more than once to accurately discuss some of these things first hand …

First of all, he was rounding, so +\- 30 years is not a big deal either way.

But that’s an interesting thing to say, isn’t it? Assuming Khan was around 37 when they were frozen (Montalban was 47), then drifted in space for some 260 years in suspended animation, he comes out appearing to be relatively the same age as he went in (Cumberbatch was 36). So what technology allows Bones to accurately measure his age? Presumably he has some way to look at genetic markers that in a normal human, or catalogued species will provide some accurate measure.

But for starters, Khan is a genetic anomaly to anything Bones or his equipment is aware. Certainly the ‘magic’ blood must throw a few wrenches in that mechanism. But perhaps more importantly, he’s been in suspended animation for the majority of that time. Depending on how this particular cryo technology works, he may or may not have continued to age at a substantially slower rate than normal. So how would McCoy be able to calculate that, considering the body is essentially preserved in the exact state it was in prior to being put into stasis — some kind of cryo freezer burn maybe?

Not that it matters since canon more or less accurately gives us Khan’s age in existence, if not his exact physical age, which again falls easily within a 30 year period assuming rounding (depending on how accurate a reflection his physical appearance is of his actual age). So we know he’s been around approximately 270-330 years. But it’s nevertheless an interesting question to me.

370. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

You’re right, it’s a variation.

As soon as he verified that his people were aboard Enterprise, he promptly surrendered.

He may have been improvising on the spot. Or he may have anticipated what Marcus would do.

Certainly getting captured seems to be the new tactic of choice for super-villains, whether part of a long in the works masterplan, as in Skyfall, or a more spur of the moment gambit.

>364. Josh C. – May 30, 2013
363 William Bradley –

well, I haven’t seen Skyfall, but in Into Darkness I think it works a bit different. I’m not sure Khan necessarily intended to get caught,

371. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Well, we know that this group of filmmakers likes mash-ups, sooo … take it away!

>362. Robman007 – May 30, 2013
@360..he’s the leader of Quantum, but he was created by Dr William Bell and Dr Walter Bishop when they worked for Kelvin Genetics doing genetic manipulation and enhancement experients for the Gov. HAHA!

372. Aurore - May 30, 2013

348. dmduncan – May 30, 2013
_______

You make very interesting points.

(Links if authorized here):

(starts at 25 : 00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LRublZFi14&list=PLE3D2E4795E53ADC3

(starts at 7 : 00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fWiCs5yaco&list=PLE3D2E4795E53ADC3

373. Josh C. - May 30, 2013

367 William Bradley –

I think once he knew they had the torpedoes and the Enterprise was having engine problems, he had anticipated Marcus’ plan, though even then there was no guarantee that Kirk wasn’t going to hand him over or Marcus wasn’t going to be successful in blowing them up.

I think once Kirk proposed to him about going over to the Vengeance to take it, he knew what he was going to do from that point on.

But yeah, I’m trying to remember past movies that pulled off this trick and not coming up with much. I think part of it – at least on Loki’s and the Joker’s part – is to try to demonstrate that they are the ones in control, even when it appears that they aren’t.

374. dmduncan - May 30, 2013

My favorite moments in STID were actually where Spock looked most like the Nimoy version. Spock unintentionally being a pain in the ass to Pike, Spock not knowing how to answer Kirk’s expression of affection.

The more emotional Spock becomes, the less interesting he is to me because he’s simply being and doing what humans do, and 99.999% of everything we see on TV and in the movies already has that subject covered.

And if he blows up/melts down every episode he risks becoming The Incredible Spulk. He already has green blood, so if he blushes and grabs some trollish character by the arm and says “don’t make me angry…you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry!” the effect will be complete.

I saw flashes of Spock in STID, but as I go back and watch more TOS and the wonderful character Nimoy brought to life, I’m waiting for Quinto’s Spock to catch up to where Pine’s Kirk is.

One thing they did right was to have Spock getting his ass kicked by Khan until Uhura shows up with the phaser.

One thing I absolutely hate is when some villain is portrayed as a badass and then Picard or Riker whoops ‘em. Like, oh yeah, you were so badass that Riker could smack you down without breaking one of his polished fingernails.

375. Damian - May 30, 2013

Bob Orci–

Want a great idea for a story for your next film.

There was a book in the 80′s by Gene DeWeese called Chain of Attack. Really a great book that I always thought would look great on screen.

Basically, the Enterprise gets thrown into another galaxy. When they get there, they find a bunch of planets that used to have life but were destroyed in different ways, evidently by war. They eventually run into the aliens who have been warring for hundreds (maybe thousands) of years. Kirk and the Enterprise are instrumental in getting the two sides to negotiate and eventually peace is made.

Great story and really puts forward the ideals of the Federation. And the Enterprise is obviously far from Earth and the rest of Starfleet. You have new worlds, a threat and a peaceful resolution. All what makes Star Trek great.

Chain of Attack. Read it sometime. I would love to see that on the big screen.

376. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

366. Curious Cadet –

Very interesting, indeed. I kind of just assumed that McCoy evaluation of the “human popsicle” was based on the technology, not the individual.

I think it was kinda, sorta implied that Dr Marcus was able to place the time frame of the frozen man based on the technology of the cryo tube…she was able to determine that it was ancient technology, in which McCoy replied that the man was over 300 years old.

Damn TOS for making EVERYTHING bad happen in the 1990′s…

I have a feeling the re-booted Botany Bay would have looked like a NASA Space Shuttle or something quasi, secret technology hybrid with a NASA shuttle..

377. Trekkiegal63 - May 30, 2013

#324. LogicalLeopard:

As for Zoe, she did kind of seem like a dangerous Christine Chapel, didn’t she? Chapel seemed to be always pining after Spock in one way or another.

Yeah, she did. *sigh*

I forgot to include this in my review of the film but the fact that Chapel was referenced as a one-night-stand of Kirk’s that he didn’t even remember had me so upset. It was one of two parts of STID that really threw me out of the film and dampened my enjoyment a bit.

In addition to the character dimissal, it didn’t seem like a very a good way to honor Majel (especially in light of what we’ve learned of Roddenberry’s reputation, even after he was married… just seems like a bit of an indirect stab). :(

*LOL* Maybe we’ll see a reference from it in the next movie, something about how Scotty assigned Chekov to scour Jefferies tubes for a month.

LOL! That would be priceless! It would also be cool to have Scotty to the ‘I’ve got my eyes on you’ finger/wrist motion whenever he and Chekov are in a shot together. ;)

greatness. Speaking of, I really loved Chris Pine’s acting. Yes, he comes across as a very immature Kirk (like he’s supposed to) but I loved his little acting additions and spins, like when he rolls his eyes at Spock before the conference in the Daystrom room, his reaction when Scotty hangs up on him, and of course his delivery of the line of all lines….”I just wanna….rip his bangs off

Yes, that line was great. Kudos to whichever one of the three wrote it (it was my second favorite line of the film… my first was Spock’s bit about simultaneous attitudes) . And I agree, Pine did a great job. I wasn’t expecting much from him going in because some of the Australian and UK reviews, including Anthony’s review, had stated that Cumberbatch entirely trumped him, but I thought he held his own quite nicely. Makes me optimistic for the new Jack Ryan film.

378. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

@374..

I can see that now with the Chapel line. Yeah, that was kinda silly. I don’t think malice was intended…I didn’t even think of it in those terms until it was brought up. It sounded like it was more or less intended as another Easter Egg, mention Nurse Chapel, aha!

I can see why they have not cast her in the role…it would add yet another distracting plot thread of a Uhura/Spock/Chapel love triangle, and they already have enough romance angles going as it is (especially if Carols role is to just be Kirk’s girl, which will happen in the next film)..

379. Rick - May 30, 2013

373 – Robman007 — “I have a feeling the re-booted Botany Bay would have looked like a NASA Space Shuttle or something quasi, secret technology hybrid with a NASA shuttle..”

Your Right of course…
just Google image search “into darkness botany bay” and or
“Botany Bay Oh No 2 “

380. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Yes, once he verified that his people were aboard Enterprise, he knew he could manipulate his way forward. Which he did. Not that he could know that Scotty would end up on the star destroyer, er, the Vengeance to let him come aboard rather than splat against the hull. Though he may have figured he would just find a way to get aboard once he got in the ballpark.

It’s harder to say that he anticipated what Marcus would do once he fled off-planet to the Klingon homeworld.

One has to assume facts not in evidence, unlike the case with Loki, Silva, and the Joker.

>370. Josh C. – May 30, 2013
367 William Bradley –

I think once he knew they had the torpedoes and the Enterprise was having engine problems, he had anticipated Marcus’ plan, though even then there was no guarantee that Kirk wasn’t going to hand him over or Marcus wasn’t going to be successful in blowing them up.

I think once Kirk proposed to him about going over to the Vengeance to take it, he knew what he was going to do from that point on.

381. Boy - May 30, 2013

312. Karen – May 30, 2013
@301 Boy

Gotta say I like your couples … but for me? Buffy and Spike. He didn’t try to be all manly and chivalric and protectory over her the way Angel did. Not that I didn’t appreciate those two, but I’m a Spike gal through and through. *g* Cos I really do think that was love. A different kind of love, far more complicated at the end. But real and genuine.

But then, I always thought Spike was intrinsically the better man. William was a much nicer man than Liam, pre vamping.

And I’ll stop it there, for fear of steering the conversation wrong. *g*

———————————————————————–

Karen please how was buffy and spike fare more complicated? their relationship was the typical starts with hate then sex and then love.

buffy and angel where way more complicated because their relationship was very unique she alone was the only way that could take away his soul and not by sex but by love

buffy still loved angel even when he went evil and was killing people. she still loved him. that my friend is a more complicated love. buffy sent angel to hell and yet she still loved him. how can you think spike was more complicated.

buffy and spike where hardly complicated.

they liked having sex, he tried to rape her, he got a soul and she loved him for it.

thing is buffy has loved angel more. buffy loves angel the way a wife loves her husband. she does not love spike in that way.

a lot of people like buffy and spike because they like spike as a character so it is only fair that they want him to get the girl.

it is no secret that buffy season 2 is considered the best season while season 7 is perhaps one of the worst season.

what made season 2 was buffy/angel.

382. Trekkiegal63 - May 30, 2013

#374 Robman007:

Oh, I don’t think they were intending malice at all. They probably thought, as you said, that fans would appreciate the reference. But Netflix put Trek Nation back on streaming not too long ago, and I rewatched it prior to the release of STID and that did serve to impact my views a bit.

383. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Yes, Spock was really the big breakout character in the TOS of the ’60s, even more than Kirk. It was Nimoy who was nominated for best actor at the Emmys every year, not Shatner. (Though Shatner was very good. He parodies himself these days.)

What made Nimoy’s Spock such a striking character was how unlike anything else he was. Quinto’s version is very smart, but he seems like something of a hothead. On those rare occasions when Nimoy’s Spock became emotional, it was much more powerful. And the rage of that Spock was something truly to be feared.

I also agree about our TNG heroes and the relative ease they have in their fights. I like Riker, and I love Picard, but neither one is exactly an intimidating guy. The only TNG character you definitely do not want to rumble with is Worf.

Whereas on DS9, you have not just Worf but Sisko, who is a serious badass, and Kira, a believable guerrilla fighter/martial artist, and Odo, with his “superpowers.”

The TNG crew is kinda like Dr. Bashir, very capable, but ultimately pretty nice.

>371. dmduncan – May 30, 2013
My favorite moments in STID were actually where Spock looked most like the Nimoy version. Spock unintentionally being a pain in the ass to Pike, Spock not knowing how to answer Kirk’s expression of affection.

The more emotional Spock becomes, the less interesting he is to me because he’s simply being and doing what humans do, and 99.999% of everything we see on TV and in the movies already has that subject covered.

And if he blows up/melts down every episode he risks becoming The Incredible Spulk. He already has green blood, so if he blushes and grabs some trollish character by the arm and says “don’t make me angry…you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry!” the effect will be complete.

I saw flashes of Spock in STID, but as I go back and watch more TOS and the wonderful character Nimoy brought to life, I’m waiting for Quinto’s Spock to catch up to where Pine’s Kirk is.

One thing they did right was to have Spock getting his ass kicked by Khan until Uhura shows up with the phaser.

One thing I absolutely hate is when some villain is portrayed as a badass and then Picard or Riker whoops ‘em. Like, oh yeah, you were so badass that Riker could smack you down without breaking one of his polished fingernails.

384. Trekkiegal63 - May 30, 2013

Oops, meant #375, not #374. ;)

385. Baby - May 30, 2013

never know, though!
326. LogicalLeopard – May 30, 2013
195. baby – May 29, 2013

Trekiegirl63,

you make some valid good points. however I believe that a lot of people have mixed feeling of the characters: black widow and the princess from Brave. here is an article of Princess Merida,

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2013/05/10/brave-iron-man-3-and-the-faux-feminism-of-armed-women/?partner=yahootix.

As for black widow I think she took a little criticism. There were a few critics who said that scarlet Johansson ass was very distracting in the film and she played the stereotypical seductress.in the sense that she uses her sex appeal to take down the bad guys.

Point is that it is not good for a female character to have her body be more memorable than her acting or performance.

**********************************************
I haven’t seen Iron Man III yet, but I don’t think that was the case with Avengers. But you have to remember that the Black Widow in the comic books was originally more than a “superhero”, she was a spy. And using seduction in that line of work was something that was required. Of course, like I said, I havent’ seen Iron Man III, so I dont know how she came across in that situation.

As far as her body being distracting, well, that’s more on the viewer than the role. ScarJo is wearing an outfit pretty much like her comic book counterpart does, and if a person can’t concentrate enough on what’s going on the screen than what she looks like, well, that’s on them. Hey, I can acknowledge that she’s a very desireable woman, but I didn’t have a problem watching Avengers and appreciating her role more than her physique.

********************************

Also again may a I also add that the character of black widow was driven by a man to do things in Avengers. Her relationship with Hawkeye was what made her want too take down Loki.

*****************************

Eh….I’m not sure about that. That was added incentive. In the movie, her and Hawkeye were portrayed as sort of buddies because they were the only non-powered “superheroes” on the team. I think they also sort of alluded to the fact that there was a closeness or past relationship with them. This is from the comic books, where Black Widow and Hawkeye were an item of sorts. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure Widow manipulated Hawkeye into doing some criminal stuff, as both of them started off as villians. I think Loki destroying the world is enough reason to go after Loki, but him taking control of an ex-lover, but current respected co-worker puts a little extra on it.

*******************************

Even Loki kind of ridiculed her for been in love. Black widow is still no different from Uhura. All these women, Not all the time but most of the time are driven by their love for their boyfriends.

********************************

But Loki is a liar and a manipulator. Think Khan, and how he used an ounce of truth to make a pound of dissent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But what Loki said was true. remember Hawkeye asked black widow what got her so upset and black widow replied that she was compromised.

Point is, loki might be a manipulator and a liar but he was still spot on when it came to black widow.

she was driven by her love for Hawkeye to do things and Loki ridiculed her for it.

Black Widow doesn’t appear in Iron Man 3.

386. Mad Mann - May 30, 2013

I can’t wait to watch this movie again.

Anyway: Here’s a TV series idea: A Captain Sulu show on the Excelsior!! (or, the Enterprise-A)

I know that John Cho is busy with Sleepy Hollow, but if that doesn’t make it to series then cast him in the Captain Sulu TV show. It would debut the same year as the next movie, so take place after it.

You could also have a Janice Rand and Christine Chapel on the list of regular characters. Maybe even a young Tuvok (Tuvok did serve under Captain Sulu). Curzon Dax? Yo, this sounds cool…..

387. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@283. Robman007,
” I kind of look at these new Trek films as taking place in an altered Alternate reality..kinda like how Walternates universe was slightly different then Walters….essentially Spock, using Red Matter, opened up a big giant Walter portal into an alternate reality that was slightly different on the tech scale, along with minor differences like an English Khan and changed that realities past…”

Except that isn’t what Orci says he intended, or that QM MWI allows in this case. Nevertheless, I don’t disagree with you. I kind of like looking at the Trek universe via QM MWI, though I think it eliminates a certain kind of storytelling and drama from the time travel plot device, which served episodes like “City on the Edge of Forever” so well, and that’s sad. They can’t really re-tell the Guardian of Forever using QM MWI without splitting off this universe into yet another alternate reality, thus rendering the whole exercise emotionally moot.

However, it’s been speculated that First Contact changed the timeline in a way it had not previously evolved, so that despite fixing the primary problem of changing first contact, the Enterprise returned to a slightly altered future, specifically caused by the Borg sphere wreckage which was discovered during Enterprise, and that’s the universe Nero split off from.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t account for Khan’s change in appearance. But that’s not to say some other incursion somewhere else didn’t. I recall reading an article that like postulating the odds of life elsewhere in the universe, that assuming Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway and Archer were a mere sampling of all the time travel incursions which occurred in Starfleet alone, that the number of actual time travel incursions must be huge! And of course any one of those could have created the Prime universe from which Nero caused the split, and ultimately account for Khan.

388. star trackie - May 30, 2013

#379 “I saw flashes of Spock in STID, but as I go back and watch more TOS and the wonderful character Nimoy brought to life, I’m waiting for Quinto’s Spock to catch up to where Pine’s Kirk is.”

Well, to be fair, you can’t really hold the sum of Nimoy’s portrayal up against Quinto’s work in 2 movies. A fair comparison would be more in the order of JJ’s Spock vs. Cage or Where No Man Has Gone Before Spock. That period, prior to Spock’s five year mission, is where Quinto is at. We saw Spock exhibit considerably different behavior in early TOS, versus 3rd season TOS. I think Quinto is very much in line with that the early, conflicted pilot episode/ first season Spock. And we don’t even have a clue as to Spock’s behavior during his 11 year tour with Pike.

So…given all that we have, I have to say Quinto and the writers are doing a fine job bringing that part of Spock’s life to the reboot and I look forward to watching all the characters grow, as much as a character can grow in a two hour movie anyway, in hopefully many. many more movies. I like these guys.

389. LogicalLeopard - May 30, 2013

374. Trekkiegal63 – May 30, 2013
I forgot to include this in my review of the film but the fact that Chapel was referenced as a one-night-stand of Kirk’s that he didn’t even remember had me so upset. It was one of two parts of STID that really threw me out of the film and dampened my enjoyment a bit.

****************************

Yeah, that was a bit odd. I mean, we know that this version of Kirk at least is reknown for his casual flings, but Christine Chapel? Not only does it kill the prospect of having Chapel show up in a movie, but it….it just does poor Christine wrong. And the not remembering her is even worse. But another thing I was thinking – wasn’t Chapel in the last movie? So what did he do, start hitting on her after he became Captain? I could be wrong about her being in the last movie, maybe I saw a blonde haired woman in Sickbay and assumed it was her.

******************************
In addition to the character dimissal, it didn’t seem like a very a good way to honor Majel (especially in light of what we’ve learned of Roddenberry’s reputation, even after he was married… just seems like a bit of an indirect stab). :(

******************************

You’re right. I’m not sure if I heard about any rumors regarding Roddenberry, but that puts an extra sting on it. You know, I’d love for them to reintroduce “Number One” as a captain in the next movie, even as a reference. “Captain Barrett” perhaps? Maybe Spock could give a line about how Captain Barrett served as Pike’s XO before him. That’d be a nice homage to take just a bit of the taste of the Christine Chapel dismissal out of our mouths.

***********************************

LOL! That would be priceless! It would also be cool to have Scotty to the ‘I’ve got my eyes on you’ finger/wrist motion whenever he and Chekov are in a shot together. ;)

*********************************

*LOL* That would be great! “For the love of all that’s holy, Cap’n, dinnae let that wee bairn within 1000 feet of Engineering, at least until he’s out of diapers!”

greatness. Speaking of, I really loved Chris Pine’s acting. Yes, he comes across as a very immature Kirk (like he’s supposed to) but I loved his little acting additions and spins, like when he rolls his eyes at Spock before the conference in the Daystrom room, his reaction when Scotty hangs up on him, and of course his delivery of the line of all lines….”I just wanna….rip his bangs off

Yes, that line was great. Kudos to whichever one of the three wrote it (it was my second favorite line of the film… my first was Spock’s bit about simultaneous attitudes) . And I agree, Pine did a great job. I wasn’t expecting much from him going in because some of the Australian and UK reviews, including Anthony’s review, had stated that Cumberbatch entirely trumped him, but I thought he held his own quite nicely. Makes me optimistic for the new Jack Ryan film.

390. LogicalLeopard - May 30, 2013

374. Trekkiegal63
Yes, that line was great. Kudos to whichever one of the three wrote it (it was my second favorite line of the film… my first was Spock’s bit about simultaneous attitudes) . And I agree, Pine did a great job. I wasn’t expecting much from him going in because some of the Australian and UK reviews, including Anthony’s review, had stated that Cumberbatch entirely trumped him, but I thought he held his own quite nicely. Makes me optimistic for the new Jack Ryan film.

********************************************

You know, as good as BC did…..I think I’d say that Pine did a better job. One reason is because he had more things to work with, a losing the father figure scene, a wanting to rip your XO’s bangs off scene, a morbid repentance scene (How great was that “I’m sorry” to the crew?), and a death scene. He had everything an actor could want. BC, however, had three main situaitions -fighting, menacing, and manipulating. And I think after a while I got tired of his mouth and nose being set in that sneer during the menacing.

391. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

The Cage was the rejected pilot. It never aired. The pilot that sold was Where No Man Has Gone Before, and in that Spock is very coldly analytical.

>384. star trackie – May 30, 2013
#379 “I saw flashes of Spock in STID, but as I go back and watch more TOS and the wonderful character Nimoy brought to life, I’m waiting for Quinto’s Spock to catch up to where Pine’s Kirk is.”

Well, to be fair, you can’t really hold the sum of Nimoy’s portrayal up against Quinto’s work in 2 movies. A fair comparison would be more in the order of JJ’s Spock vs. Cage or Where No Man Has Gone Before Spock. That period, prior to Spock’s five year mission, is where Quinto is at. We saw Spock exhibit considerably different behavior in early TOS, versus 3rd season TOS.

392. LogicalLeopard - May 30, 2013

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But what Loki said was true. remember Hawkeye asked black widow what got her so upset and black widow replied that she was compromised.

Point is, loki might be a manipulator and a liar but he was still spot on when it came to black widow.

she was driven by her love for Hawkeye to do things and Loki ridiculed her for it.

Black Widow doesn’t appear in Iron Man 3.

****************************

Ah, sorry, I wasn’t sure if she would reprise that role or not. Well, I can’t say I totally remember the dialogue from Avengers, but didn’t she turn that thing around on him? I’d have to take a second look, but I thought that BW was agreeing with Loki about Hawkeye, but used it in sort of a reverse-interrogation trick that mirrored what she did with the gangsters in the beginning of the movie. So, after that, I took what she said about Hawkeye with a grain of salt, because it appeared she was just manipulating Loki

393. LogicalLeopard - May 30, 2013

371. dmduncan – May 30, 2013
“…Riker could smack you down without breaking one of his polished fingernails.”

Riker was a metrosexual?

TNG memories = destroyed.

394. Aurore - May 30, 2013

@ 327. Here is something you wrote recently:

“What I find interesting about the casting of Khan is that they apparently looked at every Latino actor on the planet, then cast a white guy. My question is, did they ever look at any Indian, Asian, or Black actors too? Because if they didn’t, it certainly raises some interesting questions. However innapropriate they had a defense going Latino. But once they go outside that conceit, it really doesn’t matter what color Khan is. The question is did they look?” (Post 188).

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/20/sticky-into-darkness-open-week-thread-polls/#comment-5106327

________

Yes.

Before some discussions took place here, I thought that Ricardo Montalbán might have literally meant that Khan could be any nationality/race . And, that is what I disagreed with; he was North Indian.

But, once it was known that Mr. Cumberbatch was Khan, I wondered what it would, what it could mean for the character, in the future.

This is partly what I meant when, earlier I asked ; “what’s next for this franchise’s ‘Joker’, and, more importantly, who is he?”…

Could he really be any race… or nationality, in the future?

395. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@382. Mad Mann,
“Maybe even a young Tuvok (Tuvok did serve under Captain Sulu). Curzon Dax?”

Just out of curiosity, as there’s a lot of people here pitching ideas that includes TNG era and Enterprise characters, if not the original casts themselves — is there a significant portion of these series fans that don’t watch the Abrams films? Is there some perceived need to do a Generations style crossover to bring in more interest from the later series fan base that are not turning up for this TOS reboot, or to keep them onboard and coming back?

I watched most of these series myself, though admittedly not as much of DS9, but none ever inspired me the way TOS did, presumably because of the characters. That’s not to say I didn’t enjoy or like them. I did.

But whenever I read fans clamouring to introduce these characters into the TOS timeline (not that you are per se), I just don’t get it. This is a TOS reboot. It’s not like during the TNG and Enterprise era we saw the TOS characters featured again in any regular way (a couple of guest spots out of dozens of episodes), and certainly not again in any of the TNG movies. So what’s with all this bring back the TNG/Enterprise characters? They had their run, far more than TOS ever got.

Can’t we just enjoy the TOS era for a while until we branch out again? Explore this new universe with new characters rather than those who have already had a good healthy run elsewhere. Lets build up Trek’s reputation with a wider audience before we start confusing people with what Star Trek is. And so far Paramount doesn’t seem to have gotten even that right yet … So let’s keep it all familiar both on the big screen or TV, and maybe in 5 years start talking about branching out again …

396. Baby - May 30, 2013

LogicalLeopard – May 30, 2013
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But what Loki said was true. remember Hawkeye asked black widow what got her so upset and black widow replied that she was compromised.

Point is, loki might be a manipulator and a liar but he was still spot on when it came to black widow.

she was driven by her love for Hawkeye to do things and Loki ridiculed her for it.

Black Widow doesn’t appear in Iron Man 3.

****************************

Ah, sorry, I wasn’t sure if she would reprise that role or not. Well, I can’t say I totally remember the dialogue from Avengers, but didn’t she turn that thing around on him? I’d have to take a second look, but I thought that BW was agreeing with Loki about Hawkeye, but used it in sort of a reverse-interrogation trick that mirrored what she did with the gangsters in the beginning of the movie. So, after that, I took what she said about Hawkeye with a grain of salt, because it appeared she was just manipulating Loki
======================================================

O yeah..she did turn things around on him however what loki said did get to her. she composed herself well in front of loki but when she was alone with her lover aka Hawkeye she did show her weak side. she said Loki did compromise her.

397. THX-1138 - May 30, 2013

I wonder why there hasn’t been an article on Star Trek Continues first episode release? I get that we are all still in the throes of ecstasy over the release of STID but this fan-made episode was really quite good and had a very tangible TOS vibe. Was it perfect? Of course not. But that doesn’t keep it from being a lot of fun to watch.

And for the record I have no association what-so-ever with Star Trek Continues. But I do think that Star Trek fans deserve to be informed when something legitimately cool and very much “Trek” comes down the pike.

Do yourselves a favor, Google “Star Trek Continues”, click the appropriate links, and have a look.

398. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@385. LogicalLeopard,
“I’d love for them to reintroduce “Number One” as a captain in the next movie, even as a reference. “Captain Barrett” perhaps? Maybe Spock could give a line about how Captain Barrett served as Pike’s XO before him. That’d be a nice homage to take just a bit of the taste of the Christine Chapel dismissal out of our mouths.”

I love this idea. She could even tell Kirk directly she was Pike’s “Number One” and served on the previous Enterprise as they discuss their relationship with Pike over drinks. This is an especially nice homage considering Nurse Chapel was such a step down after being the second in command of the ship, despite being the more memorable character. Obviously they wanted to bring Carol Marcus in, so they couldn’t really have two white blonde female science division officers (despite the fact it seems like a weapons expert should be wearing red). However, this is one of those places I could have gone with a recasting of a brunette Latina Chapel (different mother in this timeline). Same with Janice Rand (yet another white blonde female! — I think Gene had a thing for Blondes).

An interesting story point that mirrors many of the episodes would be to have the Enterprise responding to a distress call, or rendezvousing, with another starship, which in this case is commanded by Barrett, then go from there.

—————————

As for Scotty and Chekov, would it be too politically incorrect/stereotyped to see Scotty take a liking to Chekov and while giving him advice get into a drinking contest with the Russian to see how well he can hold his liquor? Would probably be pretty funny … Or sad …

399. 'Beach - May 30, 2013

@ 342

We don’t know for certain that the wrecked saucer was not repurposed by being refitted to another stardrive.The last time we see the saucer is when it’s still aground on Veridian III, while the crew is evacuated. Then Riker and Picard beam up and that’s all folks.

Also, assuming it’s not buried too deeply, it shouldn’t have been too hard to tractor it into orbit, do some minor adjustments/repairs, then return it to a starbase. Removing it to avoid any future contamination of the primitive Veridians is necessary (and mandatory per General Order #1) in any case. Because eventually, that pre-industrial society Data spoke of is gonna go start exploring their ltittle planet. Wouldn’t do to find that laying around.

400. 'Beach - May 30, 2013

@ 397 THX

I saw the vignette about Scotty’s birthday. Chris Doohan’s portrayal is ridiculous! I mean, he is his father! Got the accent and timbre of the voice down perfectly.

Pretty fugging cool.

401. Sarek of Vulcan - May 30, 2013

# 360 Trek in a Cafe

You got that right! We are living in a world of corporate domination that wants total control over all aspects of our lives. It is at least as bad as what Khan’s regime might be, but cleverly disguised and camouflaged so that people don’t recognize how extreme it is becoming.

402. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

387. Curious Cadet …

You could say that Kirk and his crew changed the Eugenics Wars timeline by leaving behind that Klingon tech. Perhaps Khan was then created by NATO scientists due to information that was inside the devices that were taken from Chekov during his stint in the USS Enterprise brig in 1986…hmm…..so, NATO made Khan instead of USSR/Eastern Europeon/Middle Eastern scientists….

403. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

@399..

…True, but more then likely the fate of the Enterprise D hull was what was described in the novel “The Return”…it was simply salvaged and removed in managable chunks..

I did like the idea presented in the novel “Ship of the Line” that showed that a portion of the interior of the Enterprise-E was made from the wreckage of the D..that you would walk from one prestine hall way into a section that had visible damage marking as a “monument” to the previous ship. Kinda cool idea…

404. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 30, 2013

I haven’t read all of the comments, so maybe there might be something else to respond to later.

@Trekkiegal63

”Probably not what you intended with this response, but Trek does seem to be a case in point that the mass majority of female characters are placed into a romantic pairing at all costs. Makes me wonder what would have happened with Tasha Yar had Denise Crosby stayed with the show (rhetorical… we know what would have happened to her, the real question is who would they have paired her with) as a side note, and for the record, may I just say how awesome it was to have a female chief of security?! But anyway, yeah, the ‘lets-insert-a-romantic-pairing-everywhere-and-define-our-females-characters-by-them’ thing is getting old.
Thank goodness for Janeway.”

Well, checking into her and remembering a bit, didn’t she take a hologram and adjust it to suit her desires? He was basically the equivalent to a blowup doll that could talk back. He existed to suit her needs and desires and was literally defined by her, even though eventually she stopped making changes.

From Memory Alpha:

”Janeway found time to relax in a new holoprogram of Paris’, called Fair Haven. There, she became attracted to the main character, Michael Sullivan. Sullivan was happily married, but Janeway solved that little issue by changing the program to make him single.”

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kathryn_Janeway

I guess that’s kind of a flip of what you have argued against, but since you say thank goodness for Janeway, I wonder how to you feel when a woman does that to a man, or has that kind of a relationship with a man, even if he is holographic?

It seems as though she didn’t have a relationship with any of her crew, but neither did any of the other captains, if I understand correctly, although there were attractions. I can see where the conflict of interest might arise if they did, though. There were first officers that had relationships with other crew members, like Kira/Odo, T’Pol/Trip, and Riker/Troi, etc. I really liked Odo/Kira, and I’m glad they were together. I think the first officer being with someone else is okay, but of course that’s just my perspective, and I can understand why you might not like it.

The trend seems to suggest that a captain should not be romantically linked to a member of his/her crew, but the First Officer doing this is okay (probably so long as there are some observed boundaries). I don’t know that the captain can’t be linked to anyone, just what the trend suggest about the choices captains in the past have made.

The couples I’ve liked the most didn’t have the woman living her life around the man, such as Kira/Odo, Cassidy/Sisko, T’Pol/Trip, Jadzia/Worf. I haven’t seen enough of Voyager or TNG to say anything about those couples, and I’ve heard that TOS doesn’t really have them.

I’m just hoping that they develop Uhura/Spock well individually and as a couple in the next film. They may, and they may choose not to. It’s up to them.

405. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@397. THX-1138,
“Do yourselves a favor, Google “Star Trek Continues”, click the appropriate links, and have a look.”

Actually the acting was really pretty strong. Unfortunately for the big three, their voices are just so completely different than the originals it takes a while to get past that — like they’ve all been inhaling helium. The story is not bad either. I wonder if Khan shouldn’t have taken this particular twist … Then again STID was NEVER about Khan, which is why they shouldn’t have used him in the first place.

406. Phil - May 30, 2013

@399. Minor repairs, probably not. The saucer section of Enterprise-D was basically an unpowered glide crash landing. The impact itself probably rendered it structurally unsound, and it’s slide across the landscape probably completely shredded the underside. I don’t recall if the planet was uninhabited or not, but if not, they probably would have just destroyed it from orbit and not even bothered to waste the energy to tractor it out….

407. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@402. Robman007,
“You could say that Kirk and his crew changed the Eugenics Wars timeline by leaving behind that Klingon tech.”

Or perhaps something discovered from that little old lady whose kidney McCoy grew back with a pill. Or the formula for transparent aluminum. Or removing the humpbackologist …

I thought about TVH, since they clearly changed the future timeline by bringing whales from the past to the future without being reset. But 1986 seemed a little too close to 1992 to realistically produce Khan from an embryo and have him take over 1/4 of the Earth in 6 years, even if there were some kind of accelerated growth involved. That only gives him 10 years of education and experience to produce the man we saw in Space Seed and STID. Unlikely, but not impossible.

Maybe Khan was surgically altered in 1986 “Die Another Day” style in order to infiltrate the US Military and steal the Klingon tech, then spent the next 6 years in the UK undercover. Heck, he might not have even ruled the Middle East through Asia as a result, but instead the European region. Since we weren’t given any background on Khan this time, it’s certainly possible. History would have played out the same way, with another superman taking over the Middle East/Asia territories instead, and Khan executing the same escape plan. Perhaps this change resulted in Khan becoming genocidal as well.

408. Ahmed - May 30, 2013

Bryan Singer talking about possible involvement with Star Trek:

—————————————————
In an interview with Danish website Filmz, Singer — who’s busy filming X-Men: Days of Futures Past — talked about his love for Star Trek and whether he’d be interested in taking over:

“Yeah, well right now that’s something J.J. is so involved in, so I don’t know… I worry about it only in the sense that J.J. was not a huge Star Trek fan. So he was able to go into it much the way I went into X-Men, where I was not a huge X-Men fan.

So you kinda make it your own and give it to a broader audience. I would wanna make sure that if I ever did something like a Star Trek or Star Wars film, that I was able to pull away from it and actually celebrate its strengths but at the same time not get too caught up in my ‘fanship’ over it. That would be my one thing that I’d caution myself on.”

http://www.blastr.com/2013-5-30/bryan-singer-explains-why-he-may-be-too-much-fan-direct-trek

409. NCC1960 USS BRADLEY - May 30, 2013

My problem is not with the story itself. With that said the problem I do have is the fact that in Trek Prime Kahn and his crew were in a ship adrift when the Enterprise recovered it. Now with Trek .2 everything should have still happened the same way it did in Trek prime, up to the events of the USS Kelvin. So to me that is a big canon error. The reason is because the butterfly effect would not take place until after the Kelvin incident. Going with the presumption of the two timelines split at the point of the Kelvin incident. In Trek prime the kelvin incident did not take place at all. Now in Trek .2 Kahn and his crew should have still blasted away from Earth in 1997, as in Trek prime. Other than that the movie it self as a whole fun and good in my estimation. Thank you.

410. Spock's Bangs - May 30, 2013

391 “The Cage was the rejected pilot. It never aired. The pilot that sold was Where No Man Has Gone Before, and in that Spock is very coldly analytical.”

I have to agree with star trackie thst Quinto’s Spock is emotionally in the same place as smiling Spock from the pilots. Spock from the cage is the same younger Spock from the TOS timeline, Spock says as much when asked, if the events witnessed in the Menagerie are accurate. So pilot or not, that characterization of Spock prior to the 5 year mission is canon.

411. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@408. Ahmed,
“Bryan Singer talking about possible involvement with Star Trek”

Well one thing’s for certain, if Singer takes over the uniforms on the guys will be much tighter …

412. Exverlobter - May 30, 2013

Funny that those cars in Fast 6 were far faster on the box office than huge Spaceships with warp-drive lol. Maybe Justin Lin should direct the next Trek-Movie and Vin Diesel should play the villain. For example a Klingon like Kor or Kang.
Or better both. Kor is played by Vin Diesel and The Rock is Kang, lol.

413. Trekkiegal63 - May 30, 2013

#389 LogicalLeopard:

You’re right. I’m not sure if I heard about any rumors regarding Roddenberry, but that puts an extra sting on it. You know, I’d love for them to reintroduce “Number One” as a captain in the next movie, even as a reference. “Captain Barrett” perhaps? Maybe Spock could give a line about how Captain Barrett served as Pike’s XO before him. That’d be a nice homage to take just a bit of the taste of the Christine Chapel dismissal out of our mouths.

I love that idea! Absolutely think it fantastic! I do so hope this happens. And your idea is great, too, Curious Cadet!

As for Roddenberry… don’t want to speak ill of the dead and truly I’m not one to follow celebrity gossip. I’ll catch a headline here and there as I’m checking Yahoo News in the morning and of course some of it comes through my Star Trek rss feed (speaking of which, I have a link I think you’ll enjoy – more on that in a bit), but for the most part I’m of the opinion that how celebs live their lives is not my business, that my main concern is their product. But this particular aspect of Roddenberry’s life was addressed in his son’s documentary “Trek Nation”. Let’s just say that Gene had an… appetite for women that wasn’t abated by his marriage to Majel, and that the Roddenberry family friends, as well as Majel and the son, knew about it, and it was a bit of a festering wound for all involved. Eugene Jr. admitted readily that he and his father had a very turbulent relationship when Gene was still alive, for a number of reasons, that being one of them. It was all rather sad. :(

Now for that link… What Culture ranked the ST films, 1-12. Just a disclaimer, I don’t agree with all the placements, myself, I mean, in what universe would ST5 rank higher than TMP (probably only in a universe where Spock has a goatee, or a universe where Joel or Mike snark and pop-culture reference their way through B-rated films with little robot sidekicks). But anyway, thought it would entertain:

http://whatculture.com/film/star-trek-ranking-the-movies-from-best-to-worst.php

414. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@411. Exverlobter,
“Kor is played by Vin Diesel and The Rock is Kang, lol.”

I know you’re joking, but that’s not a terrible idea.

In order for Star Trek to really break out as a billion dollar blockbuster franchise, they’re going to have to hire a major international star who appeals to youth. That extra $40 million they spent on STID would have been better applied to a major star’s salary, and cut back on a special effects sequence or two.

The problem with that is, because the principal 7 cast is still largely unknown worldwide, it’s hard to have a star that big play anything besides the villain. Maybe by 2016 Pine or Saldana will break through on a Tom Cruise level. Otherwise they could bring a Tom Cruise character in to work with Kirk on the good guy team, like a Matt Decker. But that kind of short changes Kirk and Spock as the heroes. Maybe bring in a new junior crew member like Shia LeBeouf who saves the ship this time, someone Kirk has to order to his death.

415. Robman007 - May 30, 2013

@407..I’m still willing to bet that there will be a “Khan” comic series that shows Admiral Marcus changing Khan’s appearance so that he would not be recognized. They would not want some bored ensign to go doing a search in a database on the new guy and find out he was a ruthless dictator in the 20th century…so, he changed his appearance, gave him a fake name and set him out….the comic would cover his coming up with weapons of war, methods of construction, modifications to Dr Daystroms M5 computer, which obviously ran the USS Vengeance (a subtle Easter Egg, but there) and a sabotage mission to the Klingon moon, Praxis (which would probably feature him going face to face with Kor, Kang or Koloth)…

416. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

^^^^More,
A Gary Mitchell type without turning him into a villain. Maybe a big marketing campaign about how Leboeuf, or Ryan Gosling is joining the crew. Center the story around him, and then either kill him off as a big surprise, or send him off after saving the day.

417. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Well, I’m certainly all for ordering a Shia LeBeouf character to his death … That’s a little joke, btw.

>413. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013
@411. Exverlobter,
“Kor is played by Vin Diesel and The Rock is Kang, lol.”

Maybe bring in a new junior crew member like Shia LeBeouf who saves the ship this time, someone Kirk has to order to his death.

418. Exverlobter - May 30, 2013

@413 Curious Cadet

Yeah, and Diesel has already SF-experience with the Riddick-franchise. And The Rock resulted in the highest rated Voyager-Epidsode in the ratings

I agree with the Star issue. Paramount tried to make a huge publicity-stunt on the whole Benedict Cumberbatch thing, but seriously a few months ago i’ve never heard of that guy, and now everybody claims to love him since years (the RedLetterMedia-guys made a great joke about that in their review)

On paper the Star vallue of the Enterprise team seems not that bad either. However, Zoe Saldana was just sort of an animated character in her gigantic Avatar-hit, and Chris Pines possible star status depends on how great he’ll can establish himself as the next Jack Ryan. If that film fails to make a huge impact he’ll always be the dude who was in a Star Trek movie and you almost make never a big a-list career from that.
I had high hopes for Karl Urban though but unfortunately his excelent Dredd-film bombed horribly. THat could have made him a big star.

419. THX-1138 - May 30, 2013

Beach check out the whole episode.

As for the actors’ voices I didn’t have a problem with it. I don’t think Nemecek has a feel for McCoy but man, the rest of the actors are pretty good. And the story was, at least for me, very much TOS.

And now I think they should make an episode without using the conceit of hiring an actor who played a part on TOS. Like my advice for JJ and company (if JJ and company are around for a third movie):

Do your own thing.

420. Trekkiegal63 - May 30, 2013

#404. Spock/Uhura Admirer:

I guess that’s kind of a flip of what you have argued against, but since you say thank goodness for Janeway, I wonder how to you feel when a woman does that to a man, or has that kind of a relationship with a man, even if he is holographic?

Ah, TNG era existential debate… always a fascinating question. My answer: sentience. Do I believe that Data had sentience even though he was an artificial lifeform? Yes. Because he thought, therefore he was. Do I believe that a hologram does? Depends, are they programmed for it (aka The Doctor)? My daughter got a Sims game for Christmas a couple years back, and from what I can gather, though I’ve not played it myself, you program little avatars to live out their lives, controlling everything from skills and interests, to occupations. Do I think Sims people have sentience? No. Same goes for hologram people… unless they are programmed, like Data and the Doctor, with self-awareness, with the desire to better themselves.

What Janeway did I consider a more advanced, 24th century version of Sims. We’ll call it Sims, version 200. ;)

Too be entirely honest, call me a cynic, but I’m not sure mankind will ever be ready for the holodeck technology… I mean, we’d have a whole bunch of Reg Barclay’s on our hands! Who would ever leave fantasy to return to reality?!

421. Ahmed - May 30, 2013

@413. Curious Cadet

Both Pine or Saldana don’t have the star power yet. I actually never went to see any movies they were in except for Star Trek & Avatar.

This is just my personal opinion but I won’t pay to see these two in any movie, except for the new Jack Ryan movie that is coming this year.

422. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@414. Robman007,
“.I’m still willing to bet that there will be a “Khan” comic series that shows Admiral Marcus changing Khan’s appearance so that he would not be recognized.”

Well we can wager quatloos then …

I’m in agreement about the comic adventures of Harrison under Section 31, but I’m not convinced we will ever get an explanation for his appearance from Orci. I don’t think they want to ever be pinned down on this for some reason, or it would have been addressed in the movie … It’s not like they didn’t know the fans would freak and demand it.

It also doesn’t make sense to me, bored ensign or no. They wouldn’t have changed his race, eye color and accent (and how do you change the accent of someone who’s an unwilling participant?). Besides what’s a bored ensign going to do with that similarity? Who’s going to believe it any more than the whole current ‘Nicholas Cage time traveler/vampire vintage photo’ kick people are currently on? Plus there’s no evidence anyone had ever seen Khan’s photo in the 23rd century when Spock produced the only photo likely in existence almost 10 years after ST09. And considering how short-sighted Marcus was, I’m thinking he would just have the bored ensign who stumbled across it killed rather than operate proactively when such a threat is so unlikely. But anything is possible, as this is Star Trek after all.

423. Phil - May 30, 2013

@412. Random thoughts…and a little speculation…

Okay, swap Generations with TMP on that list, and I won’t argue with it.

If there is a female captain in the next installment, casting suggestions might include Demi Moore or Sigourney Weaver. Old enough to play seasoned Starfleet veterans, young enough to make Captain Grab-Ass uncomfortable…

Speaking of Captain Grab-Ass, there might be a good reason there are not to many women on Enterprise. If crew can request specific assignments, as demonstrated by cadet Uhura in the last movie, it could very well be that word has gotten around that the good captain views female crew members as his personal dating pool, as supported by Chapel’s comments in STID. What self respecting individual would knowingly put themselves in a position where they know whatever professional skills they have would be secondary to their advancement, when Captain Frisky looks at ‘other’ attributes for the possibility of promotion?

Oh, didn’t the producers over at Voyager try nudging Janeway and Chakotay as a romantic interest at one point?

Yeah, I’d agree that post TOS TV Trek did make the effort to pair people up. Real world, it’s not entirely unreasonable to expect that to happen when you have people stationed together far from home. I know someone will correct me here, but I’m hard pressed to recall too many times where personal relationships interfered with duty, though.

424. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

How about that other guy who plays Sherlock …

>417. Exverlobter – May 30, 2013
@413 Curious Cadet

I agree with the Star issue. Paramount tried to make a huge publicity-stunt on the whole Benedict Cumberbatch thing, but seriously a few months ago i’ve never heard of that guy, and now everybody claims to love him since years (the RedLetterMedia-guys made a great joke about that in their review)

425. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@417. Exverlobter,
“On paper the Star vallue of the Enterprise team seems not that bad either.”

Yes, but the issue is, the STAR must also be the star. So even if Zoe or Karl were as big names as Brad Pitt, or Angelina Jolie, they would have to be the Star of Trek, and that’s Kirk, not McCoy or Uhura. If Pine knocks it out of the park as Jack Ryan, then Star Trek will likely enter new territory. Cast Robert Downey Jr. Opposite him as the villain and there’s your mega hit blockbuster. If not, bring in a new star character above or equal to Kirk, and cast a star villain as well. Hopefully Pine will make the transition because taking the spotlight off Kirk, or even sharing it, radically alters the formula (yet another problem with Genisis).

426. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

^^^^^More,

But if Pine does become a Harrison Ford level star as a result of playing Jack Ryan, he’s only under contract for one more Trek. He could walk away for good after that. In which case they would probably have to recast Kirk with a another major star rather than just replace him with another unknown who does the best job.

427. Disinvited - May 30, 2013

#355. IDIC Lives! – May 30, 2013

My mistake. I think your mentioning a one night stand skewed my thinking toward mistakenly believing you neglected the “love” appellation and I wanted to be sure it was clear they have a relationship. My apologies and thanks for clarifying it for my mind.

428. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 30, 2013

My overall impression of what I see here is that of narrow mindedness, meanness and cynicism are rife…:((

429. kiadict - May 30, 2013

427: On the contrary: infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

430. Ahmed - May 30, 2013

Sometime I wonder if most of the people Down Under are self-righteous like the ones here !!

431. rogue_alice - May 30, 2013

I have successfully crossed a Tribble with a Chihuahua. Send help.

432. Jonboc - May 30, 2013

#391. “The Cage was the rejected pilot. It never aired. The pilot that sold was Where No Man Has Gone Before, and in that Spock is very coldly analytical.”

I have to agree with star trackie. With JJ’s treks being set before the historic 5 year mission, Quinto’s Spock is clearly still in the mindset of Spock, as seen in the two pilot episodes. Regardless of whether or not the Cage sold as a series, the fact that TOS Spock, in The Menagerie, when asked if the transmissions received from Talos were accurate depictions of his service under Pike, said yes. So there you are. Quinto’s Spock is in a state we rarely caught a glimpse of, but it has historic precedence and I’m delighted the writers and JJ knew enough about the character to bring these pre-TOS struggles and differences to the pre-5 year mission movies.

Trek continues was well done. the most polished fan production to date. great lighting, locking, pacing, editing, music placement…the crew really pulled off a proffessional production. even the acting was…umm…better. the Kirk impression is a bit bizarre to watch, like a parody…but still fun. Spock needs a little less Tuvok and a little more Nimoy in his delivery, and maybe some makeup, he looks like a kid! Bones doesn’t work at all, so unfortunately, where the 3 main stars need to connect, they fail. But the same thing happened with Cawley’s series. That triad is so vital to the success that I really never understood why the fan series try to tackle it rather than focusing on a new crew that hold no such expectations. Also, please backlight the console buttons. the bridge looks un-finished with those controls darkened. Anyway, very enjoyable,I hope more are n the way.

433. Disinvited - May 30, 2013

#357. William Bradley – May 30, 2013

I think the closest Prime Kirk got was the false memory planted at the Tantalus facility – the actual events of which support your claim.

#391. William Bradley – May 30, 2013

Indeed, THE CAGE never aired until most of its lost bits were rediscovered and it was restored after its modification for THE MENAGERIE which did air in the original run.

You are possibly more up to date on this than I am, but I seem to recall that while the complete soundtrack was recovered there are seconds of THE CAGE footage still unrestored but cleverly optically filled-in so that the original soundtrack is complete in the current edition that does air in syndication now?

#423. William Bradley – May 30, 2013

Ah yes, you mean that excellent bloke, Jonny Lee Miller, who starred with Angelina Jolie in HACKERS?

434. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - May 30, 2013

@429. Ahmed

Excuse me? What the heck prompted that attack on us?

435. Ahmed - May 30, 2013

@432. ObsessiveStarTrekFan

Check post #427. Keachick – rose pinenut

And it wasn’t an attack, more like an observation.

436. Karen - May 30, 2013

@390 Logical Leopard

Couldn’t agree with you more re Pine in this film. He does a fabulous job, across so many different emotions and tempos. No disrespect to BC, who also puts in a fine performance, but to say that he eclipses everyone he acts with is just nonsense. And quite insulting to the rest of the cast. Everyone brought their AAA game to the film.

437. IDIC Lives! - May 30, 2013

@422 I believe you are trying to be funny regarding TOS Kirk? Or is it STID Kirk? As I said earlier, TOS Kirk never did have an affair (of any length or depth, long or short – ha) with ANY crew member. He never grabbed an ass either. Oh right, you say the censors would not allow it – bullshit. Extrapolation like that reflects the extrapolator, not the reality of the character.

Janice Rand wanted him to look at her legs and tried to get him to look at her legs – not the poor guy’s fault. The Wolf-Kirk attacked Rand but not Kirk-Kirk. Kirk would NOT, that was the point about The Wolf.

STID Kirk is not the one romancing a crew member aboard the ship, Spock is.

Both versions of Kirk seems to enjoy shore leave and/or down time.
He is not a monk and apparently Spock isn’t either.

Your “grab-ass” characterization has no basis in any film or TOS.

It is a given that Kirk likes beauty – aesthetic female beauty. It is a given that he will play up to an alien who has taken control of his ship or otherwise done wrong.

In STID, Carol Marcus simply said, “Don’t turn around.” I do believe she wanted him to turn around, but be that as it may, it hardly qualifies Kirk as a grab-ass. They are both adults – Carol is not entirely innocent.

Regarding Chapel, I listened closely last time I saw STID and it is not stated Kirk went to bed with Chapel, then did not remember. He had known Chapel slightly but did not remember knowing her. It is similar to “Menagerie” where the woman in the Star Fleet office mentions to Kirk that she knows someone he has dated – she has the 411 on it, so to speak. Same with the Chapel reference, it seems Chapel told Carol Marcus about Kirk’s reputation, gave Carol the 411 on him. This scene can be taken that way – or you can infer he went to bed with Chapel. But it is not stated as such.

As for Kirk’s “reputation,” women are not entirely innocent, you know. He is good looking, young, not-married. Of course women know about him. He is open (“Hi ladies” – almost a farm boy thing to do, not very sophisticated), and a bit “smart aleck” as they say in Iowa, but this does not make him Captain Grab-Ass.

That old stereotype of Kirk was always unfair and it still is. Give it a rest.

438. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 30, 2013

I find it interesting that my response to Trekkiegal63 is being blocked. My goodness, the controlling of conversations here. I haven’t said anything offensive, rude, or bad. This is just shameful.

439. sean - May 30, 2013

#421

Bob actually addressed the Khan thing in the other film thread.

“Basically, as we went the casting process and we began honing in on the themes of the movie, it became uncomfortable for me to support demonizing anyone of color, particularly any one of middle eastern descent or anyone evoking that. One of the points of the movie is that we must be careful about the villain within US, not some other race.”

440. Weerd1 - May 30, 2013

@422 @435 Doctor Helen Noel.

441. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 30, 2013

Well, I’m going to keep trying. Here goes:

@#419 Trekkiegal63

” Ah, TNG era existential debate… always a fascinating question. My answer: sentience. Do I believe that Data had sentience even though he was an artificial lifeform? Yes. Because he thought, therefore he was. Do I believe that a hologram does? Depends, are they programmed for it (aka The Doctor)? My daughter got a Sims game for Christmas a couple years back, and from what I can gather, though I’ve not played it myself, you program little avatars to live out their lives, controlling everything from skills and interests, to occupations. Do I think Sims people have sentience? No. Same goes for hologram people… unless they are programmed, like Data and the Doctor, with self-awareness, with the desire to better themselves.

What Janeway did I consider a more advanced, 24th century version of Sims. We’ll call it Sims, version 200. ;)

Too be entirely honest, call me a cynic, but I’m not sure mankind will ever be ready for the holodeck technology… I mean, we’d have a whole bunch of Reg Barclay’s on our hands! Who would ever leave fantasy to return to reality?!”

Thank you for your answer. It poses an interesting question to me. Data is a walking computer, and The Doctor is a walking computer program. There are computers that do not take on the human form that interact with people as well as computer programs that do the same. So, what determines “sentience,” or self-awareness? The Sims program is an interesting comparison. They live in their own little world interacting, but they are not aware of anything.

The holograms in fair haven also live in their own little world, and they are not aware of anything outside of it. The interesting thing about that is, could they be? I’ve seen where holograms have noticed that members of Starfleet that enter the program have on clothing that doesn’t fit the time. I’ve seen them notice and question things that didn’t fit, and usually these inquiries get brushed off. I’ve even seen them made aware of the fact that they are holograms. Then, I’ve witnessed their reactions.

Like anybody, they respond to what they know (and I’m sure that can vary with the program). So, if all they know is the world that they are a part of, then why does that keep them from being sentient? At one point in time people thought the world was flat because they just didn’t know any better, but that didn’t mean that they couldn’t learn and become aware of what the world is really like.

What I’m saying is, how do we know that the people/programs of Fair Haven aren’t self-aware when they are turned on and running? I think the only real difference between them and The Doctor is that his program was allowed to keep running, and therefore build on itself at a faster rate. I could say that they are not sentient because their whole world is in the holosuite, but until the Doctor got tech that allowed him to move around, his whole world was inside of sickbay.

It just makes me wonder. I wonder if it isn’t the function of the program/computer that might make the difference. If the functions are spontaneous interaction, the ability to form independent opinions/conclusions, have likes/dislikes, respond emotionally, etc., then I don’t know why the label of sentience does not apply to Janeway’s holoboyfriend. I’m not saying that it should, just that I don’t know why it does not.

And as for weaknesses, well they will always be around. There’s already such a thing as Gamers Anon. It comes in all shapes and forms. Thanks for giving me something to think about.

442. Brian K - May 30, 2013

My one nitpick of an otherwise excellent film is the use of Khan. I would like to know why they all thought he was even necessary? The could have explained that Harrison was indeed one of the 72 (an Anglo-Saxon Brit), but that their leader, a guy named Khan, was awoken first. But he proved to be too evil and was “eliminated”. So then they awakened Harrison and used Khan’s fate as a threat to keep him in line. They could have used Khan’s death as a revenge motive for Harrison. All this would have made it a better movie for me. I’ve seen the film 3 times, and still wince at the “revelation” They could have left him simply John Harrison and he still would have been just as effective, if not more. The only reason I can see that they absolutely felt they needed Khan was an excuse to shoehorn in an unnecessary Nimoy cameo. BTW, I also wince when Spock screams. Totally unnecessary in an otherwise very good movioe.

443. Bucky - May 30, 2013

As for Klingon appearance, I mentally retconed with the slightly-almost-but-not-really forehead ridges, that in the JJ-verse, they managed to “fix” the Augment Virus only kinda.

444. Disinvited - May 30, 2013

#369. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013

Well, I would imagine Carbon 14 dating would be highly refined by then and wouldn’t be affected by cryonics? Of course McCoy would have to know the planet of origin for certain for it to mean anything, but I suppose the ratios of various elements appearing in the body’s tissues matching those of Earth would narrow that down?

FWIW on the future affecting the present (or the past):

http://www.ocregister.com/news/-102371-ocprint–.html

” It suggests perhaps in some future physics, some future theory, we have now an approach to time where the present is described not only by things that happened in the past, (but things that) come back like the movie, “Back to the Future” – to affect the present.

That’s a real change in our understanding of time.” – National Medal of Science winner, physicist Yakir Aharonov, Chapman University

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/aug/03/can-the-future-affect-the-past

445. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@437. sean,
“Bob actually addressed the Khan thing in the other film thread.”

I’m not sure what your point is in observing Orci’s real world explanation about why Khan has white skin.

However, this is exactly why I say we will likely not get an official canon explanation as to why Khan’s appearance is different from that seen in Space Seed and TWOK.

As Orci says elsewhere, maybe Khan’s a “shape shifter too”. Indeed, ask a ‘silly question’ …

446. Aurore - May 30, 2013

There’s an advertisement for Star Trek Into Darkness at the top of the webpage : “Spectaculaire et surprenant le blockbuster total”….some people were impressed by the movie, apparently.

…I’m also told that there is a “new video”…O.K. It’s official The Cadbury movie will be here, soon….

:)

447. Phil - May 30, 2013

@435. Well, I did mention random thoughts and speculation. Shatner’s Kirk was devoted to duty, understood professional conduct (when necessary), and didn’t come across as always being in pursuit. The real Carol Marcus comment about Kirk being a lot of things, a boy scout NOT among them, was just confirmation of what most fans suspected, that with mutual consent, caution was thrown to the wind.

This Kirks shortcomings has been debated extensively, and personally, of all the character development in the new universe I like Kirks least. That’s not the fault of Pine, he’s a young actor and making the best of material given him. That illustrates the problem with the underwear scene – the production team needed to get Ms. Eve to strip down, and someone just decided to do it there. It comes across as an afterthought, with little consideration to how it might affect how the character is perceived. So instead of doing it someplace else in the movie that might not have draw much attention, we end up with something gratuitous and reinforcing the image of this Kirk as not much more then the overhyped frat boy…

448. dmduncan - May 30, 2013

388. star trackie – May 30, 2013

Those early Spock smiles and smirks were Leonard Nimoy trying to figure out how to play the character, not necessarily because the character himself was more emotional, but even if you want to read him that way, the Quinto version is, while at-rest, markedly more emotional than Nimoy’s version ever was under the same circumstances. We may not know how he was during his years with Pike, but I hardly expect to find Spock as a party animal then. In fact I would expect Spock to have the same basic personality for his entire life. The saving grace of Spuhura in ST.09 was the loss of Vulcan which—in keeping with past circumstances where similar relationships happened—was an extraordinary circumstance for the relationship to occur. But it’s been going on now for about a year, that being the duration of time we are told has passed since the first movie, virtually turning Spuhura into the next Tripol, which is the THE thing that made me turn off Enterprise for good.

449. Aurore - May 30, 2013

“As Orci says elsewhere, maybe Khan’s a ‘shape shifter too’. Indeed, ask a ‘silly question’ …”
_______

I don’t think the question regarding Khan’s new ethnicity was silly.

He gave the answer he did because…he could.

And, people like me, who don’t like it, just have to deal with it.

450. Phil - May 30, 2013

@425. That’s a really big ‘if’ at this point. If we assume Fords role in American Graffiti as a starting point, ten years later he was a well established star with numerous hits under his belt. Trek09 was probably Pines breakout role, and he’s not done much with it, a few parts here and there that have not really been that spectacular in terms of box office. Pine’s a fine actor, but he’s not likely to be A list material at this rate.

451. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

I have two words for you: Indiana Jones.

If Lucas didn’t finally cast Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones — which means that if Tom Selleck wasn’t contractually bound to doing Magnum PI — Ford would not have been that breakout star.

>448. Phil – May 30, 2013
@425. That’s a really big ‘if’ at this point. If we assume Fords role in American Graffiti as a starting point, ten years later he was a well established star with numerous hits under his belt. Trek09 was probably Pines breakout role, and he’s not done much with it, a few parts here and there that have not really been that spectacular in terms of box office. Pine’s a fine actor, but he’s not likely to be A list material at this rate.

452. Trekkiegal63 - May 30, 2013

#439. Spock/Uhura Admirer:

Thank you for broaching an interesting topic! It was a question I always thought fascinating when TNG broached it. In fact, “Measure of a Man” is probably one of my top ten favorite TNG episodes for that reason. In fact, I think the dichotomy between “Measure of a Man” and TOS episodes like “Requiem for Methuselah” answer your question. In “Requiem for Methuselah”, when Rayna expands beyond her programming, learning the concept of love, she short-circuits and dies. It overwhelmed her. But Data was designed specifically by Dr. Soong to expand. Dr. Soong was credited as the first to design the positronic brain, which was, essentially, artificial sentience. A computer capable of learning independently.

The Doctor – same thing. Janeway granted him control over his program early on. He was able to add to his knowledge-base at will. So I think unless the holodeck and Sims peeps are given the capability to expand, they woudn’t really share in the accumulation of knowledge capabilities that Data and the Doctor had. It would be beyond their capacity.

453. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

** Right. Kirk had flirted with Dr. Helen Noel at a (groan) Christmas party, with nothing “untoward” taking place. The evil doctor implanted a false memory of his mad love affair with her.

>431. Disinvited – May 30, 2013
#357. William Bradley – May 30, 2013

I think the closest Prime Kirk got was the false memory planted at the Tantalus facility – the actual events of which support your claim.

** Right. The Cage was cannibalized for The Menagerie, but there was still no emo Spock to be found.

Where No Man Has Gone Before was the actual pilot that launched Star Trek and Spock is studiedly analytical and unemotional in it, with the first ever Spock-Kirk conversation turning on those very characteristics.

#391. William Bradley – May 30, 2013

Indeed, THE CAGE never aired until most of its lost bits were rediscovered and it was restored after its modification for THE MENAGERIE which did air in the original run.

You are possibly more up to date on this than I am, but I seem to recall that while the complete soundtrack was recovered there are seconds of THE CAGE footage still unrestored but cleverly optically filled-in so that the original soundtrack is complete in the current edition that does air in syndication now?

** Jonny Lee Miller is a very fine actor, so good that for quite awhile after I first saw him years ago I actually thought he was an American rather than a Brit. His take on Sherlock in Elementary is quite good.

But, sadly, he is not the guy playing Sherlock who stars in two of the five highest grossing movies of all time.

#423. William Bradley – May 30, 2013

Ah yes, you mean that excellent bloke, Jonny Lee Miller, who starred with Angelina Jolie in HACKERS?

454. Trekkiegal63 - May 30, 2013

#422. Phil:

You know, I’m a fan of Kirk in both incarnations, and have argued Prime Kirk’s virtues before on this website, but I thought the Captain Grab-Ass thing hilarious (made the mistake of reading it thus laughing out loud while drinking a coke zero). Cause well, yeah. ;)

And heck yes to the Sigourney Weaver suggestion! She would be fierce.

Oh, didn’t the producers over at Voyager try nudging Janeway and Chakotay as a romantic interest at one point?

Chakotay ended up with Seven of Nine. No I’m not joking (I wish I was joking)… Voyager pretty much equated to a ‘soap opera in space’ by the latter seasons.

Be that as it may, I agree that while on extended missions romance is inevitable. What I object to is that a) on all of the Trek shows male characters out-number female ones, yes even on Voyager b) eventually all of the female characters are paired up and their development and screen time becomes eaten by said romantic entanglements to the point they become synonymous with them (still can’t believe that “All Good Things” killed off Troi to start a future feud between Riker and Worf…wtf?!) while the men-folk remain unscathed, developmentally (Riker gets his own ship, the Titan, and Troi goes with him, giving up her position on the Federation flagship to do so). So my tetchiness with the Trek pairings has more to do with how they stall strong female character development than anything else.

But yes, I agree, who wants to spend five years as a nun/priest?

455. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@447. Aurore,
“I don’t think the question regarding Khan’s new ethnicity was silly.”

Sorry, I was being facetious … stating it from my estimation of Orci’s perspective … HE thinks it’s a silly question, therefore he gives a silly answer.

Also his casual dismissal of the Eugenics wars of the 1990s as voiding canon since they did not come to pass is even more telling, considering that they chose to cement Khan’s age at 300 years, thus avoiding any possibility of retconing his past with our timeline.

It just all seems so … matter of fact. They had to know what this decision meant to the fan base that grilled them over the QM MWI alternate reality in ST09, yet they still did it anyway.

So no, no canon reason. As Orci agreed, there is nothing in the film that precludes Harrison from lying about being Khan. There’s nothing that confirms he had his physical identity altered in any way. This seems intentional — therefore, no official canon explanation should be expected.

456. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Stardom is a funny thing these days. While there are a number of stars who add to the likelihood of people going to the movie, there are probably only a few who guarantee it. And even then a lot of it depends on the context of the movie.

I bet if Chris Pine breaks through as Jack Ryan, he’s going to be loathe to give up a huge franchise role like Star Trek. He will want more money, though.

Playing a villain can be a great, juicy thing to do for a movie star. Batman was re-launched in 1989 with Jack Nicholson the true star of the picture, even over Batman (Michael Keaton) himself.

Playing a very troubled hero — too troubled to be the official lead in something so noble and essentially set as Star Trek (The Dark Kirk Will Not Rise) — could be a great role, too. Even on a recurring basis.

Bruce Greenwood was great as the noble Christopher Pike. (Imagine ST09 without him.) With our Kirk so young and inexperienced, he can certainly use another older figure in the picture. After all, he never knew his dad and Pike died in front of him, with Kirk unable to save him. (Actually, I was surprised that dynamic was underplayed in the movie.)

Say there is another legendary captain our young Kirk’s long admired, a friend of his dad Thor. (Sorry, couldn’t resist.) Maybe he’s an admiral now, a youthful admiral. Maybe he’s a screw-up, semi-alcoholic captain stuck on the beach. In any event, he has skills and knowledge and history that attracts Kirk.

What conflict can we create to bring the characters together and drive them apart?

>424. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013
@417. Exverlobter,
“On paper the Star vallue of the Enterprise team seems not that bad either.”

Yes, but the issue is, the STAR must also be the star. So even if Zoe or Karl were as big names as Brad Pitt, or Angelina Jolie, they would have to be the Star of Trek, and that’s Kirk, not McCoy or Uhura. If Pine knocks it out of the park as Jack Ryan, then Star Trek will likely enter new territory. Cast Robert Downey Jr. Opposite him as the villain and there’s your mega hit blockbuster. If not, bring in a new star character above or equal to Kirk, and cast a star villain as well. Hopefully Pine will make the transition because taking the spotlight off Kirk, or even sharing it, radically alters the formula (yet another problem with Genisis).

425. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013
^^^^^More,

But if Pine does become a Harrison Ford level star as a result of playing Jack Ryan, he’s only under contract for one more Trek. He could walk away for good after that. In which case they would probably have to recast Kirk with a another major star rather than just replace him with another unknown who does the best job.

457. McCoy's#1Fan - May 30, 2013

Got to wondering, why didn’t Karl Urban do any promotion appearences on the talk shows here in America like Pine, Quinto,
Saldana and even Pegg did? Gee, could it be he didn’t have a
decent scene for them to show?

458. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 30, 2013

Why are you all discussing what these actors might or might not do? Has anyone actually asked any one of them?

I did ask Chris Pine – via that CNN Facebook question to the Star Trek actors/others – whether he would be prepared to act as Captain Kirk in a new Star Trek television series, if one were to be made. I have read a lot of people making assumptions about what Chris Pine (and the other cast) might do, but, as far as I know, I am the only one who has actually asked the actor himself.

My sons have Facebook. I don’t. I’ll have to ask them to go look for the short 15 second film of me asking him the question and see if he actually replied to my question.
Right now, I have no idea. It would be nice if I did get an answer.

459. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@442. Disinvited,
“FWIW on the future affecting the present (or the past)”

Well this would certainly explain some of the bootstrap paradoxes that exist in Star Trek. For instance, in Assignment Earth, the Enterprise goes back in time and interferes with blowing up the nuclear warhead, only to find out their own history recorded it blowing up just as their interference had caused it to. Coincidence? Or some kind of non-locality?

However, the research on this per your article seems far from convincing. Spooky action at a distance can also be explained by MWI locality as it applies to the creation of parallel universes.

One possible explanation for the perceived paradox in Assignment Earth using MWI is that the universe the Prime Enterprise came from was itself split off by an Enterprise from another alternate universe while traveling back in time. Thus when the Prime Enterprise traveled back in time prior to the point where its own universe diverged as a result of the previous incursion, it created a new split where it was the ship which affected the event for the newly created timeline … and since similar events tend to occur more often, the actions of the Prime crew mimicked the actions of the original alternate crew.

Either way, Abrams’ universe is a Many Worlds universe and unless Orci has changed the theoretical physics governing it midstream, then non-locality does not apply here.

460. Phil - May 30, 2013

@449. Got two even bigger words for you – Star Wars. Ford’s association with Lucas and Spielberg has been very good for him, but outside of Indy and Han, he wasn’t lacking for work. Ford would have been a breakout star regardless. Can’t say that about Pine yet. NuTrek hasn’t made him a household name, and if Jack Ryan flounders I don’t know that anything will…

461. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 30, 2013

#429 – I was merely making an observation. I made no mention as to where any of the posters lived. However, you made a comment about people from Down Under seeming self-righteous. There is another person posting a lot of comments at the moment who is also from Down Under. Are you referring to that poster as well with your comments?

Sadly, you have only reinforced a certain impression.

462. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

You ought to look at Harrison Ford’s filmography. (Actually, Star Wars is why Lucas did NOT cast Ford as Indy. Until he absolutely had to.)

He had two relatively major roles after the first Star Wars movie — Hanover Street and Force 10 From Navarone — which no one will recognize because neither was remotely close to a hit. I went to them. They were snorers. He had a good career going, but it actually looks a lot like Chris Pine’s with the difference being that Ford had an in with Lucas, Spielberg, and Francis Coppola, Lucas’s buddy, who cast Ford in supporting roles in The Conversation and Apocalypse Now.

The truth is that what we know of as Harrison Ford’s career hinges on three movies in succession from 1980-82 — Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, and Blade Runner.

Two of those, the two that were hits, were the result of George Lucas casting him. Blade Runner was a commercial disappointment that became a great cult film.

The key to it all was being Indy, because that became Ford’s personal franchise. And he only became Indy because Tom Selleck had to pull out.

I’m not knocking Ford. In fact, he’s been my favorite movie star at times. But this movie stuff, especially for an actor, is a lot more of a crap shoot than many think.

>460. Phil – May 30, 2013
@449. Got two even bigger words for you – Star Wars. Ford’s association with Lucas and Spielberg has been very good for him, but outside of Indy and Han, he wasn’t lacking for work. Ford would have been a breakout star regardless. Can’t say that about Pine yet. NuTrek hasn’t made him a household name, and if Jack Ryan flounders I don’t know that anything will…

463. Trek in a cafe - May 30, 2013

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22718672

Maybe instead of death in a warp core we could have just had total loss of radiation shielding; though I guess there wouldn’t have been enough time to experience anything more than fear…

464. Phil - May 30, 2013

@462. Well, I’m not going to discount American Graffiti and the effect that had on his career. That ten year span from the mid 70′s to the mid 80′s established the guy, regardless of which project gets the credit. It didn’t hurt him to be on the Lucas Spielberg short list, though…

I have a couple of friends and a client in the business, and yeah, it’s a brutal industry. Don’t blame Bad Robot for striking while the iron is hot, these guys could just as easily all be no-names again in five years…..

465. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Harrison Ford was doing TV movies after American Graffiti. And pursuing his work as a carpenter. Which is how he actually got to know a lot of these folks.

Here is his career stretch from American Graffiti to Star Wars:

1973 American Graffiti Bob Falfa
1974 The Conversation Martin Stett
1975 Judgment: The Court Martial of Lieutenant William Calley Frank Crowder TV movie
1976 Dynasty Mark Blackwood TV movie
1977 The Possessed Paul Winjam TV movie
Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope Han Solo

It’s all television, with the exception of a supporting role in the movie directed by Coppola, Lucas’s buddy and sometime business partner.

>464. Phil – May 30, 2013
@462. Well, I’m not going to discount American Graffiti and the effect that had on his career. That ten year span from the mid 70′s to the mid 80′s established the guy, regardless of which project gets the credit. It didn’t hurt him to be on the Lucas Spielberg short list, though…

466. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 30, 2013

#437 – I agree with you. Kirk is no “grab ass” wolf-whistler type guy. Being a “grab ass” or any of these other names that so many people call him here is not about James T Kirk, either in TOS or in this alternate universe.

He likes women – the feminine. He wants them to like him. Being those things that people suggest that he is would not achieve his aim, quite the opposite. Women would soon come to fear, even hate, him. Kirk is not stupid, unlike many other people.

It is also this “feminine”, this anima, which is well developed in Kirk and comes in the form of heightened intuition. He is quite a well balanced, integrated individual who is also young, heterosexual and sexy.

Is his rather cute “Hello, Ladies!” schtick necessarily a farm-boy type language? I’m not sure. Anyway, basing this on my own knowledge of small farming communities, it is more than likely that the women he is referring are known to him and he to them, not necessarily in any romantic/sexual way but because of the fact that many of these communities can be tight-nit and he and they would have quite likely gone to school together, been neighbours, etc.

Surely, Starfleet and its Academy would not be that much different to one of these farming communities in terms of people becoming acquainted socially and/or otherwise. He is just acknowledging them, their femaleness, in a friendly open manner.

The other point is that Star Trek attempts to show how things could be 200-300 years from now, not how things are right now. Star Trek is also about showing how life has improved overall and that surely must include better understanding and behaviour between males and females, where goodwill and trust are more paramount and common place than they are today.

(That does not mean that some men and women won’t behave badly but it won’t as common place as it is today.)

467. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 30, 2013

@#452 Trekkiegal63
A computer capable of learning independently.
The Doctor – same thing. Janeway granted him control over his program early on. He was able to add to his knowledge-base at will. So I think unless the holodeck and Sims peeps are given the capability to expand, they woudn’t really share in the accumulation of knowledge capabilities that Data and the Doctor had. It would be beyond their capacity.

I think they were given the ability to expand, just not unlimited ability. So, I’ll assume that is what makes the difference? I’m not sure how we determine whether or not they can learn independently. I think the guy Janeway liked was kind of unintelligent at first, but then didn’t he say something about wanting to read some books or something to learn? Instead of waiting for him to do that himself, I think Janeway just rushed the process and gave him the knowledge along with some other adjustments. So, I don’t know.

I also wonder how does a computer fully learn independently when even that is something a human would have to have programmed it to do? Also, there are women (it’s usually women) in third world countries and places like the Middle East where they are not allowed to learn independently. Instead, they are brainwashed out of what I would call that capability, but I would still classify them as sentient. It is an interesting subject.

468. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@460. Phil,
“Can’t say that about Pine yet. NuTrek hasn’t made him a household name, and if Jack Ryan flounders I don’t know that anything will…”

I can’t help but think Paramount got the casting backwards as far as gambling on celebrity q … Chris Hemsworth might have been a better choice for James T., and Pine for George.

Though Pine is arguably the better actor, and Hemsworth has not really broken out any more than Pine, aside from Thor and The Avengers which have done more for his celebrity than Trek has for Pine, STID would have really benefited from the international star recognition Hemsworth has gotten from those blockbusters.

469. Phil - May 30, 2013

@465. We are getting close to splitting hairs here, the point being that mid 70′s to mid 80′s got the guy established. To tie a bow around it, CP’s resume over a ten year period. or from Trek 09, is unimpressive, to be polite about it.

470. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Well, I’ve shown you that what American Graffiti did for Ford’s career is get him into television.

And I’ve shown you that what he did from Star Wars to Empire Strikes Back is star in two bombs and have a small role in Apocalypse Now, courtesy of Francis, again.

If you want to keep bashing Chris Pine by imagining that what Ford did before Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the Lost Ark is any better, you obviously will do that.

I’m not a particular fan of Chris Pine, btw, as should be obvious. I love Harrison Ford. But facts are facts.

Ford’s career is no better than Pine’s — in fact, you can make a case that it’s worse, because I actually saw Hanover Street and Force 10 From Navarone, the two post-Star Wars bombs that Ford starred in! — until you get to Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Which are absolute classics.

>469. Phil – May 30, 2013
@465. We are getting close to splitting hairs here, the point being that mid 70′s to mid 80′s got the guy established. To tie a bow around it, CP’s resume over a ten year period. or from Trek 09, is unimpressive, to be polite about it.

471. Philip - May 30, 2013

Harrison Ford is damn lucky Tom Selleck was obsessed with loyalty, otherwise he’d have been Indy in Raiders versus staying true to his contract for Magnum, and who really knows if studios would have really cared about Harrison Ford as a leading man later on…

Nuff said.

472. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

The irony is that Hemsworth, whose credits were mostly Australian TV, may well have gotten Thor because of how great he was as George Kirk in Star Trek!

That, and being a 6 foot 3 inch muscle man … :)

The only other stuff he’d done was that awful Red Dawn remake, which didn’t get released for years, and a little horror movie co-written and produced by, er, Joss Whedon, who of course ended up as the auteur of The Avengers.

>468. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013
@460. Phil,
“Can’t say that about Pine yet. NuTrek hasn’t made him a household name, and if Jack Ryan flounders I don’t know that anything will…”

I can’t help but think Paramount got the casting backwards as far as gambling on celebrity q … Chris Hemsworth might have been a better choice for James T., and Pine for George.

Though Pine is arguably the better actor, and Hemsworth has not really broken out any more than Pine, aside from Thor and The Avengers which have done more for his celebrity than Trek has for Pine, STID would have really benefited from the international star recognition Hemsworth has gotten from those blockbusters.

473. CaptainJon - May 30, 2013

@472. William Bradley

I’ve wondered since recently watching ST09 if Hemsworth would’ve been the better choice to play Kirk. I enjoy Pine as Kirk and believe he’s a fine choice but I can’t help but feel like Hemsworth would’ve done fine as well.

Does anyone else think Hemsworth might get typecast as a muscular, beard-sporting action hero? Look at “Red Dawn”, “Snow White” and (of course) the Marvel films.

474. CaptainJon - May 30, 2013

As far as the household-recognition/stardom debate about Pine’s future is concerned, we live in what I like to call a fast-food/high-speed era where everything needs to happen now. People don’t have patience anymore. Look at today’s Hollywood where so many young actors rise to stardom for a couple years, have a bomb or two and then disappear.

I don’t think today’s young actors are given the chance to really grow and develop because everyone looks for the next Harrison Ford or Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan right now. People aren’t given the chance they did to grow and develop. Yes, it’s been 4 years since ST09 but Pine still needs a chance to establish himself as a solid actor who can consistently deliver. We shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss an actor because of a few bombs over the course of a couple years. Let’s give them a chance to show us who they are!

475. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Absolutely Hemsworth could play James Kirk. He was great as George Kirk!

He was practically the ideal Starfleet officer.

I’ve seen the opening sequence of ST09 at least a dozen times and it gets me every time.

Of course now, as you point out, he is Thor. Given how massive the Avengers are, that is going to be indelible for him.

And I’m thinking of Downey’s riffing mock put-downs of him … “Hey, Point Break!” … “Shakespeare in the Park, doth mother know thou art wearing her drapes?”

>473. CaptainJon – May 30, 2013
@472. William Bradley

I’ve wondered since recently watching ST09 if Hemsworth would’ve been the better choice to play Kirk. I enjoy Pine as Kirk and believe he’s a fine choice but I can’t help but feel like Hemsworth would’ve done fine as well.

Does anyone else think Hemsworth might get typecast as a muscular, beard-sporting action hero? Look at “Red Dawn”, “Snow White” and (of course) the Marvel films.

476. Steve - May 30, 2013

The first movie promised to show ‘how the gang first got together’ but created a different timeline, so we really didn’t. Now, freed from ST canon, they still revisit an old villain. What’s next? Humpback whales?

477. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@473. CaptainJon,
“Does anyone else think Hemsworth might get typecast as a muscular, beard-sporting action hero?”

Hemsworth gained all that muscle after Star Trek for Thor. He was no bigger than Pine in ST09. It could work to his detriment when Marvel changes tack, though it hasn’t hurt Vin Diesel, nor Dwayne Johnson’s career, which is how this whole conversation started.

I’m all for giving Pine a chance — my comments were specifically about what would help Star Trek, and a major star is what it needs to break past this $400 million plateau. The irony is that STID has done amazing things for Cumberbatch’s career, but Cumberbatch did little for it at this juncture. Perhaps in a couple of more sequels after Cumberbatch has joined the Harrison Fords and Brad Pitts, and hopefully so too has Pine, they will bring back Khan and make billions.

478. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

You know, and I really am not a particular fan of Chris Pine, but now that you mention it, his track record since Star Trek is actually pretty damn good. It’s not bombs away time, at all.

I saw three post-Trek movies Pine did. Two of them are hits, albeit rather mild hits.

He stars with Denzel Washington in Unstoppable, the last Tony Scott picture, a very good action flick with some character development. Pine clearly holds his own with Denzel.

He stars with Reese Witherspoon and Tom Hardy in This Means War, which I thought was pretty silly but did quite well. He and Hardy (Bane in Dark Knight Rises and also terrific in Inception) are secret CIA agents fighting over Witherspoon.

The only movie he was in that’s definitely not a hit is written and produced by some guy named Bob Orci and directed by some guy named Alex Kurtzman. It’s a little domestic comedy drama where Pine plays a guy who is in trouble in business who is dealing with family stuff where he is secretly the brother of Elizabeth Banks. Michelle Pfeiffer plays Pine’s mom (!) and Olivia Wilde plays his girlfriend.

He’s actually quite good in it.

That’s not at all a bad track record, and I think that he, like the rest of the cast, had trouble planning ahead because the STID schedule changed a few times.

The fact that Pine is playing Jack Ryan, I think, is very good. Because that’s a great part which will require him to show his intelligence and sense of command. Pine is actually a UC Berkeley grad, you know. Like, well …

>474. CaptainJon – May 30, 2013
As far as the household-recognition/stardom debate about Pine’s future is concerned, we live in what I like to call a fast-food/high-speed era where everything needs to happen now. People don’t have patience anymore. Look at today’s Hollywood where so many young actors rise to stardom for a couple years, have a bomb or two and then disappear.

I don’t think today’s young actors are given the chance to really grow and develop because everyone looks for the next Harrison Ford or Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan right now. People aren’t given the chance they did to grow and develop. Yes, it’s been 4 years since ST09 but Pine still needs a chance to establish himself as a solid actor who can consistently deliver. We shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss an actor because of a few bombs over the course of a couple years. Let’s give them a chance to show us who they are!

479. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

You’re right, Hemsworth bulked up to play Thor, he’s not Arnold. He did have the height and the frame and the classic natural V-shape to build on, though, which not every guy has.

Being Thor could lead to some epic type-casting, but he’s not just a big guy. He has classic leading man looks, he’s naturally articulate, and he has a lot of charm.

He could go from action to being a romantic lead. He’s certainly picking up comedic chops just from being around Downey. Not to mention Joss Whedon. And he has a sort of easy masculinity that seems to come more readily to actors from Oz than Hollywood guys.

>477. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013
@473. CaptainJon,
“Does anyone else think Hemsworth might get typecast as a muscular, beard-sporting action hero?”

480. Disinvited - May 30, 2013

#459. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013

Hmm…you did notice that I posted more than one link? The other article was on a different researcher who came to the same conclusion but from the approach of thought experiments.

481. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@476. Steve,
“The first movie promised to show ‘how the gang first got together’ but created a different timeline, so we really didn’t.”

Though I share your pain, the reality is, the Prime universe origin story would not make for a very exciting movie. Spock was already on the Enterprise when Kirk showed up. Who knows how long it was before Scotty and Sulu were assigned as there’s roughly a year in there before we know they were on board. I suppose there’s a story in there somewhere about how Sulu went from astrophysics to helmsman. Then there’s Bones who doesn’t presumaly show up until a year later, along with Uhura, and then Chekov a year after that. Although there might be an interesting story there too since Chekov was ostensibly on the ship by Space Seed and got himself transferred up to navigator. Either way, it’s a bunch of people coming together over the course of normal service like in most average situations.

482. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Oh, and regarding your points on Cumberbatch …

He bulked up for STID, just as Hemsworth did for Thor, though Hemsworth was pretty damn buff in ST09, especially compared to Pine, who was relatively slender.

I think Cumberbatch did a lot for STID. His credibility as a very serious actor helped tremendously with critics, as you can see from the reviews. He also had a tremendous presence in the trailers, actually more so than the movie itself, to my disappointment.

What he did not bring, outside of the UK, was real fame.

>477. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013
@473. CaptainJon,
The irony is that STID has done amazing things for Cumberbatch’s career, but Cumberbatch did little for it at this juncture. Perhaps in a couple of more sequels after Cumberbatch has joined the Harrison Fords and Brad Pitts, and hopefully so too has Pine, they will bring back Khan and make billions.

483. Curious Cadet - May 30, 2013

@480. Disinvited,
“Hmm…you did notice that I posted more than one link?”

I read both. They both have substantial criticisms from respectable colleagues within the physics community, and the theory still is at odds with Orci’s stated MWI foundation for Trek.

484. William Bradley - May 30, 2013

Walter Koenig has a great story about why Khan so quickly recognized him in Wrath of Khan (even though we never saw Chekov in Space Seed).

It seems that, as Khan was taking over Enterprise in Space Seed, Chekov was engaged in a lengthy use of the men’s room. Just as Khan himself was waiting very impatiently to use it.

“But YOU … I never forget a face.”

No wonder!

>481. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013
@476. Steve,
“The first movie promised to show ‘how the gang first got together’ but created a different timeline, so we really didn’t.”

Then there’s Bones who doesn’t presumaly show up until a year later, along with Uhura, and then Chekov a year after that. Although there might be an interesting story there too since Chekov was ostensibly on the ship by Space Seed and got himself transferred up to navigator.

485. Disinvited - May 31, 2013

#483. Curious Cadet – May 30, 2013

Ok, thanks. Your use of the singular word “article” in your first reply msg 459 just caused me a little concern that you might have missed it.

486. Total-Trekkie2 - May 31, 2013

THIS IS TREK!!! Just saw it for the fifth time! Orci, if you or anyone else who helped make this wonderful Trek possible, I just want to say, THANK YOU!!!! Don’t let any nay-sayers get you down. It’s a great and true Star Trek. Tied for top place for me in terms of the movies. Keep up the great work.

PS, I’m copying this from someone else, but I think it’s great, “plastic surgery”.

487. Nick - May 31, 2013

I live for William Bradley’s opinion :Z

488. Aurore - May 31, 2013

@ 455
“… This seems intentional — therefore, no official canon explanation should be expected.”
______________

I concur.

I did not expect any, either…
(Post 1193).

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/20/sticky-into-darkness-open-week-thread-polls/

489. Aurore - May 31, 2013

@ 455.

“They” wanted Benedict Cumberbatch to be Khan Noonien Singh.

This is the official canon explanation…

490. JeminI - May 31, 2013

448. dmduncan

” The saving grace of Spuhura in ST.09 was the loss of Vulcan which—in keeping with past circumstances where similar relationships happened—was an extraordinary circumstance for the relationship to occur.”

actually they were in a relationship before the battle of vulcan (sources: script, novelization, writers dvd commentary and the comics) and it cannot make sense otherwise IMO
the fact that she was his girlfriend is important when you watch the turbolift scene because it’s the very reason his reaction to her makes perfect sense.
Also the transport pad scene later. He’s comfortable with her in a way that suggests they had been together for a while. I doubt that Uhura would have kissed him if she wasn’t his girlfriend. She had to know that he’d feel comfortable with it and in fact he was (according to the script he even was the one that initiated one of their kisses)

btw, in these movies (and this sequel in particular) we see Spock crying, screaming and going after Khan to kill him. We also saw him trying to kill Kirk in the other movie plus other emotional manifestations all in scenes that aren’t related to his relationship with Uhura.
So, that people still have a problem (in terms of whatever this Spock is OOC or not) only with the fact that he is in a relationship and yet don’t comment on all the other scenes where, using the same logic, are obviously OOC for TOS Spock is really puzzling to me and speaks a lot about how the problem here is not the romance being OOC, unless people are very selective in what they want to consider OOC and what not because they simply like the scenes so they justify them and accept them at face value.

I find it a bit problematic that a Spock who is displaying emotions like arrogance, rage, hate and sadness is ok and considered in character but for some reason him displaying emotions like love and care is considered “over the top” and scandalous.

I’ve actually read many comments where people say that he seems more in character and Nimoy-Spock in the scenes with Uhura than in the scenes with Kirk so yeah, It seems I’m not the only one that noticed this double standard and, honestly, hypocrisy.

491. JeminI - May 31, 2013

I have to add: just imagine the same exact scene in this movie where Kirk died and Spock’s reaction to it but just put Uhura or another character in Kirk’s place. Now imagine how the fans would react to that and all the “OMG the writers ruined Spock!” comments we’d read here.
and yet (and yet!) one could argue that if Spock had to cry it would have made more sense if he did it after his mother died, or his planet was obliterated or if he was seeing his girlfriend of years dying or his father dying. More sense than him crying over someone that he had known for six months and that he hardly considered more than a co-worker. And you can talk about context like you want, you can find justifications, you can say that he wasn’t crying for Kirk and it simply was the last straw that broke the camel’s back. But would people find the same justifications if the same scene was played between Spock and another character? Or would people bash the writers till the end of time for insulting Roddenberry and Spock’s character?
Judging from some people’s reactions for much much less, I have my doubts. I’ve read people that considered his reaction upon watching his mother die “too emotional” (that said now sounds like a joke honestly)
get what I mean?
You cannot convince me that there isn’t a double standard here and that the “rules” some people had established about what they consider in character or not are selectively applied only when it’s convenient and they’re easily forgotten a moment later when they watch a scene that they like even if, according to their own rules, they should criticize.

492. MC1 Doug - May 31, 2013

re: #288: “I think we can expect a sequel…”

2016 is the 50th anniversary of “Star Trek.” You can bet your bottom dollar there WILL be another movie…

Maybe not a sequel, but further adventures… and since the closing of the movie has Kirk doing the “to seek out new life and new civilizations, maybe FINALLY we will see an exploration movie.

493. IDIC Lives! - May 31, 2013

@466 I was raised in Iowa, lived in many places in the world, then came back here to Iowa and bought 18 acres devoted to nature and her animals. So I am also familiar with tight knit farming communities – and Kirk is said to have come from such a place, although many years in the future. I doubt those were farm girls/women he knew from back home at the Academy (“Hi, ladies!”) but they could have been.

What I do know is that an obnoxiously sexist womanizing man (which I have also experienced quite enough of in this life), does not go skipping along, smiling and exclaiming, “Hey ladies!” That is unsophisticated and actually very honest – as you said, a true appreciation of anima by animus -and yes, Kirk is well balanced in that regard. I think that partially gave raise to the same-sex K/S fan fiction because he seems to love individual souls more than letting something like gender create a barrier (thus the bromance with Spock). Kirk takes Spock as he is and loves him while McCoy is always trying to change/humanitize Spock.

All in all, I agree with you and think the old stereotype of Kirk being sexist or whatever the accusation is, it just a “lack” by the perceiving commenter.

Incidentally, I doubt “heartbroken” Christine Chapel had to go to the far reaches of space to nurse in an effort to get away from Kirk who didn’t even remember her. IOW, Carol Marcus commented that Chapel had gone to the far reaches but it was not intended to be BECAUSE she and Kirk were lovers and she loved him so much that she had to head far, far away – whereas he didn’t even remember her? Come on, that’s not realistic. I do believe Chapel was only an “informant” of Carol Marcus’ regarding Kirk, not a victim of Kirk.

I always had misgivings about how Christine Chapel was portrayed, one of my major nit-picks against TOS, which I love so much. Number One was GREAT. Majel must have been disappointed to swoon and weep with a blonde bird’s nest on her head instead of running the bridge, intelligent and logical. Gene Roddenberry, you goofed on that one!

494. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 31, 2013

@#490/491

Thank you Jeminl. Very well said!!!

What bothers me the most is how the writers/producers seem to have been unduly influenced by the TOS fans here. It’s unfortunate. Then you have Mr. Orci saying something in the other thread like he’s interested in what someone thinks if they saw it more than once, which seemed to change his previous request. I guess my issue is all of the TOS fans that bought 10 tickets each to see TWOK rehashed and a rushed bromance still don’t seem to be enough to keep this film from losing money domestically. But, it looks like maybe the international sales will make up for that, so I guess they don’t care. People here will get mad about that, but I’m just being honest.

At this rate, I am really starting to think that the next movie will be all about how 3 white guys are the divine center of the universe, and it will be for the 50th anniversary of Trek no less. I guess that will be one way to show how far we’ve come. This is really sad.

495. LogicalLeopard - May 31, 2013

396. Baby – May 30, 2013

O yeah..she did turn things around on him however what loki said did get to her. she composed herself well in front of loki but when she was alone with her lover aka Hawkeye she did show her weak side. she said Loki did compromise her.

**************************************************

Ah, I think I do remember that now. Well, I think that when you judge a movie, you’ve got to evaluate the whole thing together. In most of the movie, she’s kicking butt and taking names. However, the scene with Loki and Hawkeye is in there to pay homage to the comic book characters origin. So I don’t think her portrayal in the movie was bad at all.

496. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@488/489 Aurore,
“No back-story or flashback scenes to explain the appearance difference would have been enough to spare the powers that be from criticism”

I agree.

Rather than try they have just taken their lumps anyway and let the fans fill in the blanks instead. It was a PC decision that motivated this choice in the first place, explaining the so-called ‘whitewashing’ opens up a whole other can of politically incorrect worms by calling attention to it. Telling us it was a seemingly above reproach response of racial sensitivity opened up a can worms that would have been avoided by telling us he was simply the best actor for the part, so I guess we owe him something for that.

———————————
“They” wanted Benedict Cumberbatch to be Khan Noonien Singh. This is the official canon explanation…”

And while I know what you mean, technically no, that’s not a ‘canon’ explanation, though it is likely the closest ‘official’ position we get from them — in which case I guess the canon explanation is: “what difference in appearance?” — as Orci has likewise stated that they made no effort to explain why Pine does not look like Shatner, Pegg like Doohan, therefore no need to explain why Cumberbatch does not look like Montalban. As far as the characters are concerned, e.g. Prime Spock, there is no difference.

The only other explanation which we may not know for some time if ever, is that there’s a ‘reason’ Khan is white which may be exploited later, so to clarify it now would be to give it away (yet more mystery box even after the fans guessed virtually the entire plot of STID from the earliest speculation about Khan). Why did Orci have to put off answering the question they all knew was coming after the first screening for a week? Did he really need to to prove to Abrams how a big a deal it really was going to be before he would discuss taking an official position? Or to give us the appearance they had not previously thought about it for some reason?

497. Aurore - May 31, 2013

“…And while I know what you mean, technically no, that’s not a ‘canon’ explanation…”
________

:))

Sorry.
It was my turn to be facetious…

498. Aurore - May 31, 2013

“Perhaps what Montalban meant (but not in these exact words) was that Khan was an Illuminist, a Cosmopolitanist. He may have emerged from the Sikh community and ethnically have been a North Indian, but the primary goal of the perfectibilists is world control, and rising above one’s particular group is a necessary feature of that. They must be able to appeal to certain racial groups to gradually destroy the identities of those groups and to merge them into something the Novus Ordo Seclorum can work with.

E pluribus unum.”
_____________

Very interesting, indeed…

499. Phil - May 31, 2013

@494. I think you may be overestimating the influence of this site. Another poster pulled up an old poll from here about if they thought using Khan was a good idea or not. More then 60% said no, and they did it anyway.

I suspect that Bob actually does enjoy the interaction a bit, and it may be used to take the temperature of the fan base, but that’s about it.

500. Aurore - May 31, 2013

“…. It was a PC decision that motivated this choice in the first place etc…”
______

I do not share your point of view on the matter, but, I agree with you when you say that they knew that the fans would fill in the blanks.

501. Travis - May 31, 2013

Now that STID has come and gone and since some of the fans ( me included ) got our favorite villain Khan Noonien Singh ( the best of the best ) lets float out on some ideas on who the villain may be in the 3rd film!

1: Klingons

2: Romulans

3: Tholians ( my pick ) with a Mirror Universe twist

4: The Borg: My highly unlikely pick since Nero’s ship did have Borg technology

502. 'Beach - May 31, 2013

With all that’s being debated about Khan’s altered appearance, consider Shakespeare. There have been countless productions down through the centuries since The Bard’s time, large, small, stage, screen, radio, TV, with hundreds if not thousands of different actors in what Bard aficionados doubtless would call ‘iconic’ roles.

Why should Star Trek be any different? Is it because some of us fans want to consider it our Star Trek? How is that different from Bard fans who consider his works their Shakespeare? Was BSG’s Starbuck debated this heatedly when he was recast as she? Or Boomer, who went from Black male to Asian woman.

I have no trouble with Kirk & Co. being recast, because I am realistic enough a Trekker to understand that a recast and a new take on the old TOS was inevitable. I admit i was one of those ‘this is going ot suck’ critics of TNG when it was announced. I was happily proven wrong, once it found its legs. Same with it’s sibling shows later on. Jury’s still out on ENT.

That being said, and having mentioned casting, let me mention Cmdr./Capt. Ben Sisko, one of these forums’ (stated many times) favorite Starfleet captains, was of course as we all know played by a magnetic, terrifically-talented black actor, Mr. Avery Brooks.

Sisko, according to the show’s original bible, was not written to be black. Brooks was cast because he was the best fit for the role.

To put some reverse topspin on it, would we be having this debate if Khan had been a white actor originally in Space Seed, and STID made him a swarthy Indian/Arab/Whatever?

503. Spock/Uhura Admirer - May 31, 2013

@499

I don’t know, Phil. I don’t know.

504. 'Beach - May 31, 2013

The issue i have with the Borg is that they were a TNG antagonist, thus Kirk & TOS Co. had no knowledge of them.

The Borg would be, I think, a ‘square peg in a round hole’ thing, story-wise.

Making the Kilngon/Romulan/Tholian the heavy makes more TOS sense, since they all three have been in existence in the Trek ‘rogues gallery’ as it were, from the beginning. We’ve seen his Klingon, and with NuSpock, we can guess what his Romulan would look like. I would in fact like to see a 21st century, JJ Abrams filmmaking version of the Tholian.

I think the Borg of that time frame, in years a rough buck-twenty too soon, weren’t even the Borg we’re used to. LEt’s say (as has been debated) they indeed are those who sent V’Ger back to Earth. If they did inded originate form the far side of the Delta Quadrant, 70 to 90K light years away, it would still take V’Ger, at least several decades to reach our side of the street.

I doubt that the Borg were involved with V’Ger anyway. Consider the enormous power and sophistication it took to rework the Voyager Probe into V’Ger in the first place. The Borg we saw in the TNG era did not seem to have anywhere near that level of tech available.

If so, there never would have been a TNG era beyond Part II of Best of Both Worlds because they would have been utterly unstoppable.

505. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@499. Phil,
“I suspect that Bob actually does enjoy the interaction a bit, and it may be used to take the temperature of the fan base, but that’s about it.”

Orci’s official position is that he was against Khan, but Lindelof and others persuaded him in the end. So indeed the Trekmovie polls may well have some sway, at least with Bob. Certainly not with Lindelof.

506. dmduncan - May 31, 2013

490. JeminI – May 31, 2013

If you know anything about me or the content of my posts on this matter (which there are a lot of) then you will also know my criticism applies to the general recreation of Spock’s charcter in the alternative universe, and not just regarding Spuhura. In the last film his under-the-surface seething made me call him the Dirty Harry version of Spock, but to be fair, I think the actual Dirty Harry was less emotional.

Which comparison actually makes me realize something. Clint Eastwood’s characters are always reserved, on the suirface very cool, but with a fair amount of drama going on underneath the surface, which proves that to show the emotion of your character, you don’t always have to show the emotion of your character.

Still, Nimoy’s Spock is a very different character than anyone Eastwood ever played, and while I see Pine becoming the character that Shatner created in TOS, I can’t say the same thing for Quinto’s Spock whose dual personalities make him look more like a comic book hero with a super-power secret identity.

When Quinto said of his character in this film that Spock is “unleashed,” my reaction was to chuckle and to wonder, so Spock has to be on a leash now?

Then, during the movie, while giving chase to Khan, even though Spock was correctly getting his ass beat until he was saved by Uhura, the feeling was still: “Don’t make Spock angry! We wouldn’t like him when he’s angry!”

I love TOS with all its faults. The environments look cheap and the action is frequently needlessly slow with cameras often lingering on their subjects after the points of the shots have been made.

Yet Shatner, Nimoy, Kelley, and the rest of the actors, created enjoyable characters, and I care about how they are portrayed in this new universe.

And I don’t think Spock’s recreation in this new universe is an improvement over the original’s. Quinto’s Spock is much more comfortable losing control of his emotions such that it’s beginning to look like a new permanent facet of Quinto-Spock’s protrayal, EVEN THOUGH we only have 4 hours of his work as the character so far.

507. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@500. Aurore,
“I do not share your point of view on the matter”

It’s not my position, it’s more or less what Orci said … He was uncomfortable with the idea of a person of color being a terrorist. That’s a politically correct way to approach this subject.

Is that the truth? I personally think there’s much more to it. Orci wanted a white guy to be the terrorist to represent the white men in charge of the US government (not a ‘foreigner’), which is why I also suspect the cast of STID looks like that of a Leni Riefenstahl film, instead of the greater racial and alien diversity we have come to expect from Trek. It’s supposed to remind audiences worldwide of the conservative US government that made so many bad foreign policy decisions over the last decade — my take.

508. Aurore - May 31, 2013

Is that the truth? I personally think there’s much more to it….
______

I share your point of view on the matter.

:)

509. Boy - May 31, 2013

I believe this thread its on its last leg now…time to move on guys.

510. Aurore - May 31, 2013

@ 507.

Here is my take :

(Posts 379 & 440)

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/08/star-trek-into-darkness-arrives-in-some-countries-open-thread-poll/

511. IDIC Lives! - May 31, 2013

@506 I feel the same way as you express here. It’s been said that Spock is the Priest, McCoy the Healer, and Kirk the Warrior. Nimoy managed to inject that mysticism into Spock (Vulcan mysticism, it has been called), but nuSpock is either prickish OR is irate and out of control. The only hint of his mystical nature is when he prepares to die in the volcano and stretches out his arms to the universe. I don’t think it is Quinto’s fault, he is given a script but it could be that Nimoy really was quite exceptional in being able to project this very complicated mystical AND highly logical, usually peaceful – half-Vulcan.

I surprise myself to agree with you also re Chris Pine “getting it right” re Kirk in STID. In the 2009 movie, he was too young to be able to see Kirk spouting forth but in STID, I do indeed see it. I figured Shatner was harder to replace even than Nimoy but I do believe now the Kirk “replacement” is going well but I do have misgivings regarding Spock. I like the nu-guy ok but–

Yes, it has evolved and they do have to be their own men in the new universe. I just hate to see what was so unique, mystical and alluring about Spock, give way to either prickishness, or a very human kissing scene, or an explosion of murderous temper. What else has there been?

Ok, will answer my own question: the much-maligned Kirk death scene. For a few moments before the “KHAANNN!” scream, the real Spock was there. There certainly is enough between the nuSpock and nuKirk to elicit Kirk’s death scene emotion from both of them, the love, actually mystical in nature, between Kirk and Spock transcends realities. THIS WAS THE MOMENT THEY REALIZED IT in the new universe.

Kirk and Spock have been knowing of their illogical, nearly mystical love in old TOS episodes for quite a while. Anyway, I sure hope Pine stays on the same track and that Spock’s character will now settle in (for the most part), so we can see Spock’s soul, not his temper.

512. dmduncan - May 31, 2013

@507 CC

Well I’m not sure I would attribute the evil to “white” people either since in reality evil is a colorblind force that will accept all comers. I think Obama is every bit as bad or worse than Richard Nixon, and far more skilled at manipulating the press, deflecting criticism, and abusing the good will he is granted, but he isn’t “white.”

It would be a huge mistake to say that Khan has no nationality or ethnicity, but evil does and it’s WHITE!

Empires do not care what color you are. They care only that you mind who your masters in this world are.

513. Phil - May 31, 2013

@470. You are looking at some pretty narrow windows to bolster your point. Just look at the five year window from their breakout hits, SW for Ford, ST for Pine. We are both looking at the same lists, there’s no comparing the two. Better comparisons to Pine might be Matthew Broderick or Michael Keaton (maybe Bruce Willis)..all good, capable actors, good looking guys who have managed to stay busy, starred in a few notable movies, but never quite managed to crack the A list….

514. Disinvited - May 31, 2013

#504. ‘Beach – May 31, 2013

I don’t think the machine planet “gave” V’ger the vast power it possessed when it showed up on earth’s doorstep. I think they healed it in such a way that they gave it self-awareness and a way to execute its prime directive to gather data, i.e. know all that is knowable. It is that which it learned on the return trip that allowed it to show up with great power. I believe Spock said something to the effect after his mindmeld with it, that V’ger knew all that there was to know logically about the universe. The only void in that knowledge was the true nature of its creator which it chauvinistically refused to consider could be anything other than silicon-based like itself.

515. dmduncan - May 31, 2013

510. Aurore – May 31, 2013

That’s interesting. Who predicted the actor would be British, regardless of the role he was playing? What was the context?

516. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

502. ‘Beach – May 31, 2013
“With all that’s being debated about Khan’s altered appearance, consider Shakespeare.”

What about it? Each Shakespeare production is a completely new reboot, usually with a setting other than Shakespeare intended as well. The audience knows this going in. That’s part of the 400 year tradition of Shakespeare. And as there are no new stories being written by Shakespeare, what would be the point of simply remaking them identically each time? Even Hollywood doesn’t do that. But there are nevertheless ‘authentic’ stagings in which men play the women’s parts, and the costumes and sets are authentic to those used at the original Globe, something that would get old very fast if that’s all there was. Also, the company used the same actors in every production, and even if we wanted to cast every Shakespeare production to match the original, there’s no photographs from which to do it. Then there’s context. Many productions of Othello have recast Othello as white, which requires alteration of the text. The histories have other problems, because they can’t really be rebooted since they are, well, histories. And while its been done, a black Henry V just doesn’t make any sense. And if that’s not enough for you, Shakespeare’s plays are not a multi-billion dollar franchise which depends on its marketing and merchandising and sizeable fan base, with well defined characters imortalized by the same actors playing the same parts for 50 years.

———————-
“Was BSG’s Starbuck debated this heatedly when he was recast as she? Or Boomer, who went from Black male to Asian woman”

Are you really asking? It absolutely was. The difference is that the BSG fan base is much smaller than Trek’s, and most importantly, it was a complete reboot. Star Trek should have been a complete reboot in my opinion, that way we could have had a more diverse original cast … A Black McCoy, a Latina Chekov, etc. and then it wouldn’t matter if we had A white Khan. But that isn’t what they did. They said everything before Nero’s arrival was identical to Trek canon up until that point. They created the expectation they failed to deliver on. In essence they recast Perry White from a white guy in the first Superman movie to a black man in the Superman II sequel since ST09 and STID are a continuation of existing canon, not a total reboot.

———————-
“Sisko, according to the show’s original bible, was not written to be black. Brooks was cast because he was the best fit for the role.”

Again different. The show had not yet set a precedent — it had not gone on the air. This kind of thing happens all the time in development. If they for some reason recast Sisko mid-season due to illness or something as a white man, then that would be closer to what we are talking about here. Perry White between Superman sequels. Consider Darren on Bewitched — what if instead of casting another tall slim dark haired actor, they cast a short fat bald man and expected us to just accept he was the same character?

———————-
“would we be having this debate if Khan had been a white actor originally in Space Seed, and STID made him a swarthy Indian/Arab/Whatever?”

Yes.

517. Baby - May 31, 2013

how about the black nick fury?

Remember guys Nick Fury was official white before the Ultimate Marvel comics , a comic series that choose to re model him after Samuel L Jackson, which lead to Jackson getting the role in the films.

518. Aurore - May 31, 2013

@ 514. dmduncan – May 31, 2013

“That’s interesting. Who predicted the actor would be British, regardless of the role he was playing? What was the context?”
________

It was within the context of a discussion on Khan :

( Blogpost and comments section, where a poster made the prediction . Link if authorized, here) :

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/12/an-open-letter-to-jj-abrams-if-theres-a-khan-he-should-be-indian

519. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

You’re right, there is no comparing the two.

Ford followed up Star Wars by starring in two absolute bombs.

Pine followed up Star Trek by starring in two relative hits.

You keep saying things which are refuted, then try a new tack.

Fine. Let’s use your latest.

The “five-year window” after Star Wars for Harrison included Empire Strikes Back and, wait for it, Raiders of the Lost Ark. The latter of which he got essentially by default.

Take George Lucas’s greatest hits out of the equation and Harrison Ford is back to doing the TV movies that he did after what you called his breakthrough in American Graffiti.

>512. Phil – May 31, 2013
@470. You are looking at some pretty narrow windows to bolster your point. Just look at the five year window from their breakout hits, SW for Ford, ST for Pine. We are both looking at the same lists, there’s no comparing the two. Better comparisons to Pine might be Matthew Broderick or Michael Keaton (maybe Bruce Willis)..all good, capable actors, good looking guys who have managed to stay busy, starred in a few notable movies, but never quite managed to crack the A list….

520. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@511. dmduncan,
“Well I’m not sure I would attribute the evil to “white” people either since in reality evil is a colorblind force that will accept all comers”

I’m not sure that’s what I’m saying. I’m suggesting that America is seen as a nation of white people (both internally and externally), and Orci’s intent was to point a finger at the US government (also seen generally as a white body) and its misguided (not necessarily evil) foreign policy (primarily that of 2001-2008). This is best accomplished by putting a lot of white faces on the screen, and making the bad guys white as well to make sure his point is not distorted that they are “foreigners” threatening our shores, instead of one of “us”. I’m not trying to eschew culpability on the part of Obama (who is half white), just that he is relatively new face on an otherwise traditionally defined body. Starfleet has always been largely seen as the stand-in for the United States anyway, Orci is just making sure his intent is not mistaken. Otherwise they could have just taken this story to another planet as TOS would have done, and had Kirk caught in the middle.

Khan is a problem if that’s truly Orci’s intent (which I am basing solely on his explanations and previously expressed political views), and likely why Orci didn’t want Khan in the first place, but was persuaded to shoe-horn him into the story which he arguably fits except for his physical appearance. To some extent Khan is not truly evil, until we learn he was a genocidal dictator, at least no more than we can say the kid who straps a bomb to himself is truly evil — he’s fighting for something he believes in. Marcus is not truly evil in that sense. Nevertheless their behaviors create a culture of evil.

521. sean - May 31, 2013

#507

I’d say it’s an emotionally sensitive way to approach this subject. Since Bob is a person of color himself, I imagine he’s more sensitive to it than say Alex or Damon. Khan is absolutely a villain in this movie, even if he is manipulated by Marcus, so I can see why it would make Bob uncomfortable. After all, Khan is representative of us as well (made explicit by Kirk’s speech at the end).

I had my own issues with the casting, but I found Bob’s answer more thoughtful than I expected. I guess I’m on the opposite side of the fence than you on that, as I would have found any response to the effect of ‘he was the best actor for the part’ extremely frustrating, as it simply glosses over whitewashing and implies no qualified PoC could have filled it. Bob’s answer at least gives a context.

522. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@516. Baby,
“how about the black nick fury?”

How about it? It was a comic book. Did the fans get upset? I know the fans are upset now that DC comics is planning to kill-off the black Green Lantern.

I don’t know how comic books work, but don’t they get rebooted from time to time too? I mean surely the Superman stories haven’t been continuous continuity since 1935? At least I know he doesn’t look the same.

While I did not realize the comics changed Nick Fury first in the comic, the argument I would otherwise make is that the feature film is essentially a reboot of the comic. Diversifying characters that are otherwise notoriously white in comics that originated in a pre-civil rights world when going from one medium to another is the perfect way to do that. Still you don’t see them making Captain America or Superman black now do you? Moreover, turning Khan white is doing exactly the opposite.

Unless I’m wrong, this is also a very different situation than Khan, based on what the producers told us … STID is a sequel to Space Seed. It’s no different than if in a 4th season episode, the Enterprise went back in time and unknowingly changed something that resulted in someone else discovering Khan, so when they got back to the present they found Khan working as an agent for Starfleet with no knowledge of their previous encounter, but rather than go back in time and fix it, they simply take him out in the present and expose Starfleet.

Here’s a question, would they have produced I Mudd if the actor who originally played Harry Mudd wasn’t available, or would they have just recast him? If they recast him, would they have gone with an Asian, or an African American? That’s what we’re talking about here.

523. Trekkiegal63 - May 31, 2013

#467. Spock/Uhura Admirer:

Well of course brainwashed people are sentient. Just because they are repressed doesn’t mean they lose the capability of self-awareness, any more than say, Jim Jones’ former followers. There is a difference, however, between a computer program that can only exists within the parameters set for its program, and one built, like Data, to mirror human sentience and expand. We could go on and on about this, but I think the episode “Measure of a Man” where Data (actually Picard) proved Data’s sentience speaks for itself…

Transcript from the episode:

PICARD: Commander, would you enlighten us? What is required for sentience?
MADDOX: Intelligence, self awareness, consciousness.
PICARD: Prove to the court that I am sentient.
MADDOX: This is absurd! We all know you’re sentient.
PICARD: So I am sentient, but Data is not?
MADDOX: That’s right.
PICARD: Why? Why am I sentient?
MADDOX: Well, you are self aware.
PICARD: Ah, that’s the second of your criteria. Let’s deal with the first, intelligence. Is Commander Data intelligent?
MADDOX: Yes. It has the ability to learn and understand, and to cope with new situations.
PICARD: Like this hearing.
MADDOX: Yes.
PICARD: What about self awareness. What does that mean? Why am I self aware?
MADDOX: Because you are conscious of your existence and actions. You are aware of yourself and your own ego.
PICARD: Commander Data, what are you doing now?
DATA: I am taking part in a legal hearing to determine my rights and status. Am I a person or property?
PICARD: And what’s at stake?
DATA: My right to choose. Perhaps my very life.
PICARD: My rights. My status. My right to choose. My life. It seems reasonably self aware to me. Commander? I’m waiting.

Intelligence, self awareness, consciousness… holograms and sims do not possess this, unless, of course, they are given what science fiction giant Isaac Asminov (who, himself, has an interesting history with Trek, Roddenberry, and influence therein and is the arthur of such works as “I, Robot” and “Bicentennial Man”) first coined as the positronic brain – a device made up of an artificial neural network, designed to imitate the human brain. i.e. built specifically with intelligence, self awareness and consciousness in mind.

524. dmduncan - May 31, 2013

519. Curious Cadet – May 31, 2013

Well America is a country whose power structure has mostly been white, but it’s also a country that permits parity so long as you make your offerings to the right gods. The key to success in America is knowing who your gods are, and making sure you practice the rituals correctly.

And I’m not talking about Jesus.

525. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@523 dmduncan,

Ha!

So true.

Again, I could be totally wrong about Orci’s motivations … I’m mostly trying to reconcile how overwhelmingly white and male the cast is in STID.

526. Mad Mann - May 31, 2013

RE: Klingons

I haven’t read all the comments, but I thought that the Klingons were VERY well done. I really don’t understand the uproar over the ridges, but it’s stupid. Klingons have ridges, deal with it.

Anyway, I dub the look and am glad they dropped (mostly) the big trenchcoat look from the deleted 2009 scene. I really like the costumes: they actually look alien and not a KISS band groupie. The tattered and angled Klingon symbol on their uniforms was cool. The updated Bat’leths are a nice touch.

Kronos (Qo’nos) looks very alien. I liked the sounds, the yellow mist, the buildings, geography looks like nothing on Earth. Very intimidating.

I was most impressed with the behavior of the Klingons. Uhura tried to pull the “Klingon-honor” card to get the Klingons to let them go, and that Klingon was gonna stab her! That is awesome! I always knew that the Klingons of the TOS era were much less concerned with honor than in the TNG/DS9 era. I hope these honor-less attitudes continue in the next one. I also love how they ONLY spoke in Klingon. I hope that they never speak in English in the next one as well.

The mini-Bird of Preys were pretty nifty. I wish that there were some toy models of these. Actually, I wish we had some cool action figures of these new Klingons. …

For what little we saw of the Klingons in this movie, I was very, very impressed. Bob, if you read this: thanks for making the Klingons awesome again! Qa’pla!

527. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@525. Mad Mann,
“Uhura tried to pull the “Klingon-honor” card to get the Klingons to let them go, and that Klingon was gonna stab her! That is awesome!”

Well, they are in a ‘bad’ neighborhood. ;-)

528. Mel - May 31, 2013

@ 490. JeminI – May 31, 2013

Tons of people have said, that they don’t like Spock being overly emotional, including his constant rage scenes. He is acting all the time at least or even more emotional than the other full human characters. For example the Khan shout was criticised a lot. Some said, that it went into parody territory. So it is not like only his public make out scenes and lovers quarrels with Uhura were criticized as being Un-Vulcan.

TOS Spock generally showed emotions, and I mean all kinds of emotions, in a more subtle way, when he wasn’t under some unusual influence (spores, pon farr, etc.). Compare that to NuSpock, who acts nearly non stop overly emotional. And in the rare cases he doesn’t, he sometimes gets criticized for it by other characters, like when he was more concerned in the volcano about the Prime Directive than how Uhura would feel, if he would die.

I thought it already after Star Trek 2009, that it was a really bad idea to humanize Spock so much. One big part of his appeal was his alieness, that he looks (at least a little) and ACTS different than the full human characters. With him practically acting like all the other human characters (or even more emotional than them), he became much more ordinary. There is no lack of human characters, so it is sad, when they practically got rid of the most prominent alien character.

529. Phil - May 31, 2013

@518. This is rapidly getting pointless, because I know you are looking at the same list that I am. And you have not refuted anything, you are cherry picking your reference points. You are at the point now of speculating about ‘what if’s’. What if Ford hadn’t…. He got lucky…. If he didn’t know…. Problem is, that works both ways, if Pine hadn’t taken the Trek role he’d still be washing dishes somewhere, and doing community theater. Maybe making a living off his dad’s reputation. There are plenty of actors out there where Pines career can have a legitimate comparison made. Ford’s not one of them, based on resume, box office, or any other thing you care to choose to compare.

Pine seems to be able to keep busy, lots of actors have great careers as character performers. No shame in that at all. I’d be the first to wish him well, and good luck.

530. Mel - May 31, 2013

499. Phil – May 31, 2013

“@494. I think you may be overestimating the influence of this site. Another poster pulled up an old poll from here about if they thought using Khan was a good idea or not. More then 60% said no, and they did it anyway.

I suspect that Bob actually does enjoy the interaction a bit, and it may be used to take the temperature of the fan base, but that’s about it.”

That is true. In the end the opinion of posters on this site may at most influence a tiny little bit Orci, but that is it. And he is not the only one, who influence the script. I was the one, who posted in an older thread old polls from this site about Khan. Here is a repost for those, who haven’t seen them and may be interested in them:

Villain for Star Trek sequel?

Kang/Klingons (40%)
Khan (10%)
Borg (6%)
Other past Trek villain (8%)
New character/race (36%)

Total Votes: 1,293

Start Date: May 19, 2009 @ 1:57 pm

——

Khan in Star Trek sequel?

Good idea (10%)
Unsure/maybe (29%)
Bad idea (61%)

Total Votes: 735

Start Date: June 26, 2009 @ 1:34 pm

——

Khan in Star Trek sequel?

Yes, he is the superior villain (6%)
Maybe, but with a different spin (25%)
No, been there, done that (twice) (69%)

Total Votes: 780

Start Date: November 3, 2009 @ 7:32 pm

——

Villains for Star Trek sequel

Klingons (50%)
Romulans (3%)
Khan & Genetic Augments (5%)
Other TOS era villain (10%)
Borg (6%)
Cardassians (1%)
Other TNG era villain (0%)
Internal Federation villain (8%)
New race villain (10%)
Force of nature villain (7%)

Total Votes: 456

Start Date: October 26, 2009 @ 12:17 am

——

Choice for Villain for STAR TREK 2012

Khan (11%)
Klingons (37%)
Other TOS villain (11%)
Other TNG or ENT villain (8%)
New villain (33%)

Total Votes: 3,431

Start Date: September 11, 2010 @ 11:00 am

——

Villain in Star Trek sequel?

Khan (6%)
Kor, Kang, other Klingon (29%)
Romulans (2%)
Tholians (5%)
Gorn (6%)
Borg (6%)
Other TOS villain/entity (5%)
Other TNG, VOY, DS9, ENT villain/entity (3%)
New villain individual/race/entity (10%)
New villain ‘concept’ (28%)

Total Votes: 2,790

Start Date: April 5, 2011 @ 12:56 pm

——

Khan For Star Trek Sequel?

Yes (9%)
Only if done in new way (25%)
No (66%)

Total Votes: 510

Start Date: November 18, 2011 @ 3:12 pm

——

Guess what role Benedict Cumberbatch is playing

Khan (7%)
A Klingon (10%)
Garth of Izar (4%)
Gary Seven (5%)
Q (12%)
Other known Star Trek character/race (10%)
A new alien villain (28%)
A new human villain (24%)

Total Votes: 2,382

Start Date: January 5, 2012 @ 10:09 pm

——

Your guess for STAR TREK 2013 Villain

Gary Mitchell (21%)
Garth of Izar (9%)
Khan (11%)
Other augment/Botany Bay survivor (8%)
Other known Star Trek character (8%)
New character (43%)

Total Votes: 1,079

Start Date: February 24, 2012 @ 9:46 pm

——

Guess Cumberbatch Into Darkness Villain

Gary Mitchell (47%)
Gary Seven (1%)
Khan (20%)
Garth of Izar (10%)
Charlie X (1%)
Joachim (or other Augment) (6%)
Other (15%)

Total Votes: 3,614

Start Date: December 7, 2012 @ 4:15 pm

——

(After seeing Trailers/preview) Guess Cumberbatch Into Darkness Villain

Gary Mitchell (10%)
Gary Seven (0%)
Khan (38%)
Garth of Izar (3%)
Charlie X (0%)
Robert April (1%)
Joachim (or other Augment) (12%)
Just ‘John Harrison’ (new character…nothing more) (32%)
Other (4%)

Total Votes: 3,288

Start Date: December 17, 2012 @ 2:12 pm

——

Thoughts on Cumberbatch’s INTO DARKNESS Villain?

Great Villain (68%)
OK Villain (21%)
Disappointing Villain (11%)

Total Votes: 4,092

Start Date: May 17, 2013 @ 7:39 pm

——

A few polls are unclear without the article belonging to them. You don’t know for sure, if people were asked, who they think the villain will be or who they want as the villain. But others are more than clear. The clear majority of this site’s visitors didn’t want Khan. They also didn’t believe for a long time, that Cumberbatch would play him after he was cast. I guess, because he doesn’t look at all like Montalban or Indian.

531. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

Actually, no. But you are right about one thing. This is pointless. You are fixated on bashing Pine, no matter what.

The reality is that Ford starred in exactly two non-George Lucas movies after Star Wars. They were both bombs.

Pine starred in two non-George Lucas movies after Star Trek. They were both relative hits.

I use Harrison Ford, one of my favorite all-time stars, actually, only to point up how preposterous and unfair your position on Pine is. But you won’t see it.

>529. Phil – May 31, 2013
@518. This is rapidly getting pointless, because I know you are looking at the same list that I am. And you have not refuted anything, you are cherry picking your reference points. You are at the point now of speculating about ‘what if’s’.

532. Red Dead Ryan - May 31, 2013

Yeah, not sure how William Bradley can compare the careers of Chris Pine and Harrison Ford.

Chris Pine:

“Smokin’ Aces”.

“Star Trek”/”Star Trek Into Darkness”. His only blockbuster franchise.

“Unstoppable”. A pretty good thriller.

“People Like Us”. A small, family drama.

“This Means War”. A Reese Witherspoon movie.

Now, Harrison Ford.

“American Graffiti”. George Lucas’ first film.

The original “Star Wars” trilogy. Obviously some of the most beloved sci-fi films of all time. Han Solo one of the greatest big-screen heroes of all time.

“Blade Runner”. A belated cult classic. Highly regarded by many as one of Ford’s best performances.

“Apocalypse Now”. Another classic movie.

“Witness”. A Best Actor Nomination.

The “Indiana Jones” movies. Another classic film series, featuring another popular heroic character.

“Clear And Present Danger”/”Patriot Games”. Two Jack Ryan hit movies.

“The Fugitive”. Another hit movie. Ford was nominated for numerous awards, though his role is always overshadowed by that of the Oscar-winning performance of Tommy Lee Jones.

So yeah, Harrison Ford’s career, even at his early stages, is beyond that of Chris Pine’s. I think Pine would be hard-pressed to have the same resume that Ford has.

Case closed.

533. Red Dead Ryan - May 31, 2013

Phil hasn’t been bashing Chris Pine. He’s just pointed out that Pine isn’t exactly a leading actor, at least not yet. And outside of the two Trek movies, he hasn’t done any blockbusters.

William Bradley, you need to let this thing go, dude.

534. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

Well, just go back and compare where Harrison Ford and Chris Pine were AT EQUIVALENT STAGES OF THEIR CAREERS.

The comparison works very well for Pine, who had two relative hits after Star Trek while Ford starred in two bombs in beween the first two Star Wars movies. Especially since Ford only got to be Indiana Jones at the last minute after Tom Selleck was forced to drop out.

The facts are very clear. They have all been laid out.

There is no point wasting more time pointing all this out to people who don’t look at the facts.

532. Red Dead Ryan – May 31, 2013

535. Phil - May 31, 2013

@531. Let it go, man. You can compare Pine to Ford all you want, that won’t make him an A lister. Further, if he ends up with a long and busy career like Broderick or Keaton, that’s nothing to be ashamed of. Good character actors are hard to come by.

A couple of corrections:
People Like Us was a starring role. Came and went faster then you could say dud. Unstoppable was a co-starring role in a Denzel Washington movie, and a moderate hit. This Means War was a co-starring role opposite Reese Witherspoon and Tom Hardy, also a moderate hit. (Tom Hardy is a much better person to compare Pine to, BTW. Similar age, both got into the business about the same time, both suffered through their duds). Voice over work.
So, Witness was a dud? Air Force One? The Fugitive? 42? Blade Runner? Yeah, he’s had his dud’s, all actors do. Also, seem to be picking up some hostility toward American Graffiti. Also, not a dud. And I’m not going to fault the guy for using handyman work to get his career going, it shows hustle.

I’ll stand by my original observation. Feel free to compare Pine’s career to others (I’ve named a few), but the comparison to Ford is bad. Real bad.

I’m done. Nothing more to see here….

536. Trekkiegal63 - May 31, 2013

Appears that ST news has stalled once more, so here’s something from the rss that might interest fellow wine connoisseurs like myself… Star Trek now has it’s own CBS endorsed wine.

… and they’re red, so you know, you can justify your purchase via health benefits (I know I do. :))

http://eater.com/archives/2013/05/30/yes-star-trek-wines-now-exist.php

537. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

Now I see you claim I’m calling some of my favorite movies — which came long after the equivalent career period — duds.

There is no discussion with people who flat out distort what I say.

I’ve laid out the facts. They are what they are. This has wasted enough of my time.

The equivalent Ford movies for this period in Pine’s career are Hanover Street and Force 10 From Navarone, huge bombs. But I’ve already pointed this out. Total waste of time.

>535. Phil – May 31, 2013

So, Witness was a dud? Air Force One? The Fugitive? 42? Blade Runner? Yeah, he’s had his dud’s, all actors do. Also, seem to be picking up some hostility toward American Graffiti. Also, not a dud. And I’m not going to fault the guy for using handyman work to get his career going, it shows hustle.

I’ll stand by my original observation. Feel free to compare Pine’s career to others (I’ve named a few), but the comparison to Ford is bad. Real bad.

I’m done. Nothing more to see here….

538. Trekkiegal63 - May 31, 2013

Oh, and Joss Whedon endorses JJ Abrams helming Star Wars…

http://www.shadowlocked.com/201305303060/news/joss-whedon-endorses-jj-abrams-as-director-of-star-wars-episode-vii.html

…awww, genre director/producer to genre director/producer camaraderie, it’s kind of sweet.

539. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

Well, we’re about to get some more with weekend box office results.

Projections I’ve seen is STID drops 45% or so. So it is closing in on $200 million domestic in a couple weeks, maybe a bit sooner.

It’s doing well, in the vicinity of the first movie domestic, much better international.

>536. Trekkiegal63 – May 31, 2013
Appears that ST news has stalled once more,

540. Phil - May 31, 2013

@534. A more correct observation would be it’s a waste of time for anyone who doesn’t agree with your own interpretation of the evidence. The most fair comparison for Pine is to take as wide a view of his career as possible, either the ten years since he came into the business in 2003, or in the four years since Trek09. You are focusing on two years, 74-75, and that’s unfair to both actors. Regardless, the evidence all points to Ford. Tom Hardy is a much better comparison, and Pine comes up short there, too.

RE: the Raiders role, Spielberg was fine with Ford in the role, Lucas needed convincing. Several people were considered, Selleck was offered and declined the part, then it came back to Ford. Not quite the dumb luck scenario you are implying here….

541. conscienceoftheking - May 31, 2013

While I really liked the movie, there were some notable flaws that prevented it from being great.

My full on review:

http://www.cornersofchaos.blogspot.com/2013/05/movie-review-star-trek-into-darkness.html

542. Phil - May 31, 2013

@537. As opposed to Carriers and Small Town Saturday Night? That’s the problem with your approach, looking at a tiny window to prove your point can come back to bite you. Also, in defense of Pine, again, the guy seems like a capable character actor, and stays busy. Nothing wrong with that, but the comparisons to Ford are way premature at this point. If Pine starts knocking out a role or two a year, or build enough name recognition to actually put cheeks in the seats then he can make that claim. But not now….

543. Mel - May 31, 2013

@ 506. dmduncan – May 31, 2013

“Don’t make Spock angry! We wouldn’t like him when he’s angry!”

Yes, he is like Hulk occasionally now. Don’t make him angry, or he goes into rage mode, including an old fashioned fist fight. Couldn’t they let him use at least some martial art, karate or whatever moves? That would have looked more controlled and less like total rage mode.

What additional annoys me is, that they let other characters act OCC and throw plausibility out of the way to get those long Rage!Spock scenes.

I mean why was Spock the only one trying to catch Khan? Couldn’t they inform security on Earth or beam some more people from the Enterprise down? And when Khan and Spock were on that moving ship, they couldn’t beam them up, because they were moving (that didn’t stop Chekov in ST 2009 from beaming up the falling Kirk and Sulu), but they could beam down Uhura, although that ship was still moving. The real reason for this was obviously, because TPTB wanted to show more of Rage!Spock and let Uhura rescue her man.

And when Spock was nearly killing Kirk on the bridge in the 2009 movie, everyone else was acting totally OCC. No one was trying to stop Spock. They were just standing around and did nothing. I find it hard to believe, that McCoy would just watch, while his best friend gets killed by Rage!Spock. Uhura also just watched on, while her boyfriend was nearly becoming a murderer. Sulu, Chekov and everyone else weren’t better. I thought even Sarek needed a long time until he finally interfered. All of those characters acted completely OCC, just because the writers wanted to show a long Rage!Spock scene.

544. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

Phil, I should ignore everything you ever write after your attempt to say I had called some of my favorite movies, which obviously have nothing to do with the comparison, “duds.”

Pine and Ford both did only a couple of big budget movies after their big breaks.

Pine’s were relative hits.

Ford’s were big bombs.

Ford had only big bombs in the movies he starred in between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.

He was a bust as a leading man.

It’s only Empire Strikes Back that got him back on track, THEN getting Indiana Jones, which he only got at the last minute after Tom Selleck had to drop out.

Now Pine gets to play Jack Ryan. So he is where Ford was before Raiders came out.

But you know all this, because I laid everything out yesterday. There is nothing new to say here, unless you again try to distort what I said.

>541. Phil – May 31, 2013
@537. As opposed to Carriers and Small Town Saturday Night?

545. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

PS: I forgot to mention the really big news we’ll have after this weekend.

STID opens in China! That is going to tell us a great deal about the international box office.

>>536. Trekkiegal63 – May 31, 2013
Appears that ST news has stalled once more,

546. Phil - May 31, 2013

@543. That’s all right. I should be ignoring everything you are writing now because most of it is flat out fiction…

Chris Pine has not starred in any big budget movie post Trek. He either co-starred or was supporting cast in a couple of movies of low to moderate success (not including voice over work). His one starring role was a bomb. Using your criteria of looking to movies where Pine had a secondary role, it makes little sense that you would exclude Fords co-starring rolls for consideration – Apocalypse Now was hardly a bomb. Using your own criteria Chris Pine has to be a bust as a leading man as well – then again, using your very narrow criteria, just about every leading man in Hollywood would be a bust as a leading man.

We are using the same reference materials, so I know you see all of this. This isn’t distorting anything, if anything, it’s providing details you have omitted. At this point you are protesting a bit to much.

547. Danpaine - May 31, 2013

#543…apparently you’re forgetting a little film called The Star Wars Holiday Special, 1978…..just kidding….

548. Phil - May 31, 2013

@546. Don’t get me started on Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Biggest grossing Indiana Jones film ever, and it’s an abomination. The Last Crusade was a wonderful movie, then Lucas/Ford/Spielberg had to go and ruin it all….(sob)…

I think everyone tries to ignore the SW Holiday Special. I’d prefer to pretend that ST: Generations doesn’t exist, but it keeps popping up on the FX network fairly frequently….

549. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

Hahahah, this is strictly hilarious now.

Harrison Ford had a cameo role in Apocalypse Now (my second favorite movie of all time). He wasn’t a co-star. He’s not featured in any of the marketing material. He’s in because of Francis’s friendship with Lucas. That’s why he’s “G. Lucas.” It’s all inside baseball.

Guess what? I had a cameo role (not “roll”) in a famous movie. I don’t get credit for its success.

You’re totally distorting reality at this point, claiming I said things I didn’t, totally distorting what Pine did. And I am thoroughly bored.

I’ve provided the information. Peace out.

> it makes little sense that you would exclude Fords co-starring rolls for consideration – Apocalypse Now was hardly a bomb.

550. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

How could I have forgotten that?! :)

By far, the most widely seen movie that Ford was in between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.

Certainly seen by far more than saw him star in the WW2 vehicles Hanover Street and Force 10 From Navarone.

The point, of course, is that Harrison Ford is only HARRISON FORD because he was fortunate enough to star in, and talented enough to take advantage of being in, George Lucas’s greatest creations.

Is Chris Pine going to be a giant superstar? Who knows? My guess would be no. Because acting is such a crap shoot that that’s always the safe guess.

But the reality is that he is no worse off than Ford was at this stage of the game. Aside from, you know, not knowing George Lucas in the middle of Star Wars and Indy, that is.

>546. Danpaine – May 31, 2013
#543…apparently you’re forgetting a little film called The Star Wars Holiday Special, 1978…..just kidding….

551. Phil - May 31, 2013

@549. Well, at least we have both been amused, because you left the reservation with ‘Pine starred in two non-George Lucas movies after Star Trek. They were both relative hits.’ As he participated in five movies total, and only one as the star, whatever criteria you use to describe ‘relative hits’ is obviously open to interpretation. And you provided some information. I’ve provided the rest of it, and the casual read can conclude whatever they wish.

Cheers….

552. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

Well, I will keep a weather eye peeled for your fake name, Phil, because this is another total distortion on your part, after falsely claiming I called Air Force One and other movies much later in Ford’s career “duds.”

I’ll briefly sum up what I actually said at length in the item referenced by number below … Namely, that Pine starred in two relative hits, Unstoppable and This Means War.

Ford starred in two absolute bombs, Hanover Street and Force 10 From Navarone, after Star Wars and before Empire. And yes, like Pine, he had some famous co-stars in those movies, too.

478. William Bradley – May 30, 2013

553. Ahmed - May 31, 2013

@ 545. William Bradley – May 31, 2013

“PS: I forgot to mention the really big news we’ll have after this weekend.
STID opens in China! That is going to tell us a great deal about the international box office.”

Not really, I bet that bootleg copies of STID arer already in the streets in China

554. Trekman93 - May 31, 2013

MONTALBAN KHAN: SHOWED MORE OF HIS SUPERIOR INTELLECT SIDE OF THE CHARACTER

CUMBERBATCH KHAN: SHOWED MORE OF HIS SAVAGERY SIDE OF THE CHARACTER (How it was stated in the movie when he admits it to Spock while being in the brig)

That’s why both Khan’s are different from one another. The reason why they have both different fates in their timelines.

I hope they still do a comic book spin-off rated to Into Darkness about when Khan was revived by Marcus and how he used him to do his dirty deeds. Maybe they’ll give an explanation to the appearance change to hide what he truly looked like from the history books.

555. Phil - May 31, 2013

@552. As you seem to have some compulsion to have the last word, then so be it. If, in your universe, This Means War and Unstoppable were Chris Pine vehicles, then I suppose they are. I can only hope that Jack Ryan is just as successful….that’ll sure prove me wrong.

556. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

You’re undoubtedly right about that. But it’s the same issue that has faced Iron Man 3, Skyfall, all the other big movies hitting China.

You know, Iron Man 3 has a China-only sequence because of the importance of the Chinese market.

I think STID also launches in South Korea this weekend, also a key stop.

I think the movie has a shot at $500 million worldwide. Certainly it will be well into the $400s.

>553. Ahmed – May 31, 2013
@ 545. William Bradley – May 31, 2013

“PS: I forgot to mention the really big news we’ll have after this weekend.
STID opens in China! That is going to tell us a great deal about the international box office.”

Not really, I bet that bootleg copies of STID arer already in the streets in China

557. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

Speaking of compulsions …

At least this time you didn’t totally distort what I said or simply make it up.

Pine starred in those two movies. Now, in my opinion, one of them kinda stank and the other has a famous co-star, but he did well, the movies were relative hits, especially compared to Hanover Street and Force 10 From Navarone, which also had famous co-stars, and I’m sure that the Jack Ryan movie will do much better. Because it’s a Jack Ryan movie.

>555. Phil – May 31, 2013
@552. As you seem to have some compulsion to have the last word, then so be it. If, in your universe, This Means War and Unstoppable were Chris Pine vehicles, then I suppose they are. I can only hope that Jack Ryan is just as successful….that’ll sure prove me wrong.

558. Classy M - May 31, 2013

Very good news from China: STID has made 60,000,000CYN ($9,718,486.54) over three days. It seems on track to pull in the $25m in one week that was the initial estimate. http://fun.hsw.cn/system/2013/05/31/051680650.shtml

559. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@554. Trekman93,
“Maybe they’ll give an explanation to the appearance change to hide what he truly looked like from the history books.”

I don’t believe Khan was pictured in any history books. Frankly, I don’t believe anyone in the 23rd century had ever seen a picture of Khan until Spock first produced one in 2267 (8 years after STID). If they choose to explain alteration of Khan’s appearance at all in this manner, most likely it will be as an overabundance of precaution.

560. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

That’s great!

My software translation is kinda hinky, but it looks like really good news.

>558. Classy M – May 31, 2013
Very good news from China: STID has made 60,000,000CYN ($9,718,486.54) over three days. It seems on track to pull in the $25m in one week that was the initial estimate. http://fun.hsw.cn/system/2013/05/31/051680650.shtml

561. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@558. Classy M,
“Very good news from China”

Cool.

More good news, the reviews are in for After Earth and Now You See Me, neither of which are very good. In fact After Earth reviews are dismally bad. So it’s basically a free weekend with no new competition. I’m beginning to wonder about The Internship as well, considering there are no advance reviews of it either, which could turn out to be as underwhelming as The Hangover and thus giving Trek two full weekends with no serious new competiton before Man of steel hits.

562. Classy M - May 31, 2013

The reviews from China for STID have been uniformly good. They seem to like the 3D and the cast. The general consensus is the plot isn’t new, but because the performances and CGI are good, they seem willing to overlook it.

I’ve been amused to see several Chinese reviewers, obviously new to the franchise, talk about ‘the Spock Sheldon (Cooper) likes.’ Looks like Big Bang Theory has put a few bums on seats.

But the biggest draw is unquestionably Cumberbatch. He’s huge in China. His nickname is ‘Volume Blessing’. This snippet is one of many adoring reviews he’s received:

“Star Trek: The Dark unbounded” was shown nationwide on May 28, the first day of release mad received 25 million yuan box office, the date of the summit box office champion. I do not know how many of the box office is “volume blessing” contribution, you could not imagine those crazy fans: He just an appearance on the big screen, he drew bursts of screaming female fans, and when he uttered the first saying lines, many viewers even address him already dead. http://ent.sina.com.cn/m/f/2013-05-30/18313932985.shtml

You got to love the unexpected poetry of google translator!

563. Classy M - May 31, 2013

An updated just posted on IMDb by a Chinese fan: Massive increase in box office on day 4, good reviews from social media. Up to 31-may-2013, total gross = $14,343,000

564. Shall We Begin!!! - May 31, 2013

I’ve been a long time star trek fan, but J.J. Abrams vision of Star Trek now is the one I believe in!
I envisioned this years ago, in which I always wanted an action packed Star Trek film. And now someone finally gets it.

565. Disinvited - May 31, 2013

#390. Damian – May 10, 2013

My take is altSpock has lost his mother, and finds that when he expresses emotion, perhaps first done in an attempt to honor her, that it keeps her alive in a way that is important to the part of him that feels. How he achieves balance in his future should be a very interesting journey.

566. Disinvited - May 31, 2013

An observation: Chris Pine might not know George Lucas but he definitely knows the guy helming the next STAR WARS movie.

567. Ahmed - May 31, 2013

@ 566. Disinvited – May 31, 2013

“An observation: Chris Pine might not know George Lucas but he definitely knows the guy helming the next STAR WARS movie.”

I think Pine is more suited to a Star Wars movie than Trek movie.

568. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 31, 2013

I think Kirk remembered Christine Chapel. He just was not prepared to comment, given the circumstances and inappropriateness of what Carol said to him in the first place.

569. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 31, 2013

Why is everyone so concerned with Chris Pine’s career and box office success outside of Star Trek?

Anyway, it seems that his stage work is being overlooked. He has done well there. In fact, a live stage play in which he played lead character got turned into a movie. I am not certain if he was even offered the opportunity to play his character in the movie. Anyway, the play called Farragut North was retitled Ides of March and had Ryan Gosling play the character that Chris Pine brought to the stage and made it so successful that George Clooney thought a movie could do well, based largely on how Chris Pine had played this original character.

He is great as Captain Kirk and frankly I do not see why he would be more suited to a Star Wars movie than to Star Trek. He is an actor who is capable of playing a great range of characters, including one James T Kirk of Star Trek.

I fear that he, as a talented actor, may get shortchanged. Please – Supreme Court – do not shortchange his character, Kirk, or him!

570. Ahmed - May 31, 2013

@569. Keachick – rose pinenut

“He is great as Captain Kirk and frankly I do not see why he would be more suited to a Star Wars movie than to Star Trek.”

Well, I was thinking that he will be great as younger version of Han Solo.

571. Keachick - rose pinenut - May 31, 2013

William Bradley – What is your problem with Chris Pine? Stop trying to compare him with other actors. He has his own life, career etc. They belong to him, not somebody else and that applies to Harrison Ford or any other actor et al.

As for Carriers and Small Town Saturday Night – I own both on DVD.

*I can’t watch Carriers that often because of how it ends and how Chris Pine plays his character, Brian. My god, can that actor “pull a rabbit…” He was brilliant as Brian.

Unfortunately, Small Town Saturday Night undoes itself by having far too much swearing, mainly the “f” word. There was just so much that it becomes too uncomfortably distracting. I don’t mind some swearing and curiously, when Pine’s character swears (which is not often), he has good reason to do so. He played the character with his usual level of good competency and proved that even in what some may describe as mostly a great pile of dung, he comes through as being that small shining gem.

This is not unlike how some critics have referred to his performance in STID, minus the “dung” bit.

The fact that people in general may not know or have seen what Chris has done previously is their loss. All his movies are on DVD and if I can have *almost all of them, living in NZ, then for a US citizen, getting hold of same, I doubt, would be difficult at all.

It is not just that Chris Pine is good looking with unusual and lovely eyes and lovely smile etc, it is also what this actor does with the material he is given, whether it is a little or a lot, is what makes him great in my eyes.

I love him for it. May he continue to “pull that rabbit out…”.

* It seems that I will have to import People Like Us from Australia… not seen it yet…:(

572. William Bradley - May 31, 2013

I obviously have no problem with Chris Pine, having been defending him.

lol

>571. Keachick – rose pinenut – May 31, 2013
William Bradley – What is your problem with Chris Pine?

573. T'Cal - May 31, 2013

May go again this week!

574. Hugh Hoyland - May 31, 2013

IMO yes Khan can come back for the sequel (if one comes as I think their will be). Of course theres a “fail safe” device in his head that will kill him dead if he gets “iffy”.

575. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@574. Hugh Hoyland,
“Of course theres a “fail safe” device in his head that will kill him dead if he gets “iffy”

THANK YOU!

This is the biggest plot hole in the movie. Assuming, as many here believe, that Marcus surgically altered his appearance (as well as Race and nationality), why wouldn’t they insert some kind of control mechanism while they were at it? Granted Marcus was holding his crew, but Khan was far from trustworthy, suggesting Marcus had no idea about Khan’s history, or who he was actually dealing with.

Guess nobody in Section 31 had seen Mission Impossible III …

576. Ahmed - May 31, 2013

@ 575. Curious Cadet – May 31, 2013

“Guess nobody in Section 31 had seen Mission Impossible III ”

You can blame Abrams who directed Mission Impossible 3 for ignoring to inform the writers about that ;)

577. dmduncan - May 31, 2013

575. Curious Cadet – May 31, 2013

Well, in the alternative ending I posted above somewhere, I have “Harrison” scrubbing ship’s records; in Space Seed actual, I think it’s Scotty who reports that the Botany Bay has no records! So whoever finds the ship will have a mystery, much as Kirk did in Space Seed.

Marcus does appear to know who they are, but we never find out when he got that information. It may well have been from “Harrison” after they awakened him.

And apart holding his crew as collateral, I think “Harrison” could be expected to find out about and would not put up with a failsafe implant given that he was expected to be a more or less well behaved Section 31 employee. I can see him manipulating his way out of the implant trap.

578. dmduncan - May 31, 2013

apart holding = apart from holding

579. Curious Cadet - May 31, 2013

@577 dmduncan,

Meh. The more I think about how little sense Khan makes in this movie, the more I just don’t care … They really should not have used Khan.

Marcus forced him to design a new starship because there was nobody in the Federation as qualified? Really? Khan was torturing the crew in Space Seed to get them to join him, because he NEEDED thier training to help him run such a complex ship. He had 72 crew just as superior as he was … never mind Scotty was able to automate the entire Enterprise to be run by one person on the bridge! How’s that for superior intellect!

580. Buzz Cagney - May 31, 2013

#572 but he’s no William Shatner, is he. Chris can’t even begin to chip away at Shat’s screen presence. Still, not many can so Pine isn’t alone.

Two weeks after seeing the movie i’ve largely forgotten it. So if thats what the production team were aiming for then good job gang!

581. Buzz Cagney - May 31, 2013

#348 hellooo, but this is cold, aloof, emotionless Spock. You know, all the things that made him unique. The crayon mashers (thanks Vults!) stripped all of that from him just to give Jar Jar a bit of a thrill.

582. Jeff O'Connor - May 31, 2013

@562

Haha, Google Translator is awesome. Thanks for sharing the unexpected blessing.

583. Sprout - May 31, 2013

@577

Talk about plot holes in Space Seed. First the crew has no idea who or what Kahn is, then, after a commercial break and Spock googling him (someone else said “googling” in a long-ago post, but I thought it was brilliant), the entire senior staff is sitting around the table talking about how they admired Kahn like they had studied him at the Academy. And I loved how in STID, McCoy refered to Kahn as a superman. They must’ve said that a half-dozen times in Space Seed.

Anyway, I’m thinking that now they’re heading on 5-year mission per TOS, maybe Spock will evolve into a more Vulcanian (sorry, Space Seed reference again) state of mind. In the very early Treks, Spock was too smiley, loud, etc., before settling into the Spock we know and love. Maybe Spock/Quinto will harden into a more familiar Spock. Or not. Either way, love having the Enterprise and her crew back in action.

584. Phobos in Montreal - June 1, 2013

Woohoo it is the weekend. I can’t wait to return to the IMAX tomorrow.

“Shall we begin?”

585. Bucky - June 1, 2013

I walked out of After Earth and I heard the siren call of Star Trek Into Darkness beckoning me from a nearby theatre. It was IMAX 3D, i was not equipped, so it was fuzzy and double-visioned. I slipped in at the doorway for a peek at Khan’s whole “Shall we begin” monologue then I skipped out. That blurry half minute was better than the entirety of After Earth.

586. Charles Trotter - June 1, 2013

580. Buzz Cagney

“Two weeks after seeing the movie i’ve largely forgotten it. So if thats what the production team were aiming for then good job gang!”

With maybe one out of every 20 people disliking the movie, I’d say they did a very good job, indeed.

587. Marshall - June 1, 2013

@582 Sprout-

“Anyway, I’m thinking that now they’re heading on 5-year mission per TOS, maybe Spock will evolve into a more Vulcanian (sorry, Space Seed reference again) state of mind. In the very early Treks, Spock was too smiley, loud, etc., before settling into the Spock we know and love. Maybe Spock/Quinto will harden into a more familiar Spock”

Oh God I hope so. I think Quinto is a fantastic Spock but he is never better than when he is the stoic, serious, logical Vulcan we all know he can be. Crying and having girlfriend problems just takes me so far out of the film sometimes it really bothers me. You can count me in as one of those hoping to end the silly Spock/Uhura romance, but even if it continues on I just want Spock to be more Vulcan. If he can do that with Uhura so be it. Problem is it doesn’t seem that way, lest she start being snippy on serious missions about him thinking about his job before her or their relationship. It ended with a nice, serious revelation, but the rest of it felt like high school couple fighting in front of their friend.

Even the KHAN scream was off. Spock yelling just felt weird lol

588. Karen - June 1, 2013

Got my copy of the soundtrack today. Can I just say how utterly beautiful and awesome and chillworthy Track 14 is — full blown rendition of the Main Star Trek theme. Wow, what I wouldn’t give to hear that in a concert hall.

Seems to me the orchestra must have had the best time performing that piece. It’s operatic and epic and so lyrical and dramatic.

Huge, huge kudos to Michael G and the orchestra. Magnificent.

589. Tom - June 1, 2013

Just read Leonard Nimoy interview on Star Trek.com. Great to hear that he is open about the next movie given the 50th Anniversary. Hopefully Bad Robot picks up the phone. Hopefully get Shatner in the mix too. Come on Bob. Make the call Can’t picture him in Star Wars though.

590. William Bradley - June 1, 2013

580 … You know, if I were a talented actor I’d of course love to play one of the great iconic genre roles. But two I’d definitely stay away from, even though I love the the characters, are Tony Stark/Iron Man and Captain Kirk.

RDJ is indelible as Stark/Iron Man. And Shatner is indelible as Kirk.

It’s like replacing Sean Connery as Bond. It’s taken decades, and a bunch of guys playing the role, for the unfavorable comparison to wear off.

Chris Pine makes a fine Kirk. ST09 was a very well-cast movie and the new crew is good across the board.

But some of them do suffer in comparison to the originals. That’s only natural.

>580. Buzz Cagney – May 31, 2013
#572 but he’s no William Shatner, is he. Chris can’t even begin to chip away at Shat’s screen presence. Still, not many can so Pine isn’t alone.

Two weeks after seeing the movie i’ve largely forgotten it. So if thats what the production team were aiming for then good job gang!

591. Disinvited - June 1, 2013

Sometimes to look forward, you have to remember the past:

http://trekmovie.com/2009/07/25/orci-talks-again-about-linking-next-two-star-trek-movies/

Also, I believe someone queried about what was the earliest they could have considered Khan for the sequel? My answer would have to be when Bad Robot decided to spend the money for an FX shot of the S.S. Botany Bay to endcap the 2009 effort.

592. P Technobabble - June 1, 2013

How many tv shows made the jump to the big screen and were as well cast as the new Star Trek?
If the new Star Trek did not have TOS as a predecessor, who would we be comparing these actors to?
Is it even fair to be comparing the two casts?
Has anyone yet criticized Pine for not having the same shoe size as Shatner?
Harrison Ford is lucky no one portrayed Han Solo before him, huh?

593. Disinvited - June 1, 2013

#591. P Technobabble – June 1, 2013

Off the top of my head, I’d cite Sonnenfeld’s THE ADDAMS FAMILY.

I’m assuming ones that used original tv cast members are off the table?

594. Exverlobter - June 1, 2013

Another Review from Mr. Plinkett
Hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeyLm-pLVm4

595. PP - June 1, 2013

@579 Curious Cadet

In Space Seed Khan just woke up, he just read some of the technical manuals of the enterprise, but apart from that, he wasn’t able to assimilate 300 years of knowledge. So he needed the Enterprise crew to help him.

And I think the idea that Marcus wanted to use the skills of Khan because there was no one in Starfleet “better” than him was not a plot hole, but one of the essences of the movie: Marcus thinks Khan could help him, bring in some fresh ideas, because his vision of starfleet differs from the peaceful vision of the UFP and Khan do not have moral limiations. But he was absolutely wrong with his idea, because Khan can’t be controlled and so it is stupid to use Khan as a “think tank” to build a dictactoric military starfleet.

596. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

@594. PP,
“In Space Seed Khan just woke up, he just read some of the technical manuals of the enterprise, but apart from that, he wasn’t able to assimilate 300 years of knowledge.”

And how long do you estimate he had been awake in STID? Marcus found him after the destruction of Vulcan so that’s less than a year in any case. My point about his 72 crewmates is that each one is as smart as Khan — so let’s say they “park” the Enterprise somewhere for a week to study the technical manuals, that’s 73 total weeks of assimilation to figure out how to run the ship. Hard to imagine that wouldn’t be enough when Khan by himself is designing and building stealth torpedoes, an entire new class of starship, perfecting transwarp beaming and who knows what else in less than a years time. So yes, this is a plot hole to me.

————————–
“And I think the idea that Marcus wanted to use the skills of Khan because there was no one in Starfleet “better” than him was not a plot hole, but one of the essences of the movie: Marcus thinks Khan could help him, bring in some fresh ideas, because his vision of starfleet differs from the peaceful vision of the UFP and Khan do not have moral limiations. But he was absolutely wrong with his idea, because Khan can’t be controlled and so it is stupid to use Khan as a “think tank” to build a dictactoric military starfleet.”

Well first, I didn’t say “better”. But yes, you’re point is taken as has been stated by Orci. However, it’s a pretty weak plot point, if not a hole. The galaxy is full of aggressive warlike species — the Klingons, Romulans, Tellarites, Cardassians, the Xndi — and section 31 has been around for at leat 100 years (an organization the appears to have few if any morals). So, what, they couldn’t recruit someone from one of these other warlike species to help them think more aggressively, or dispatch spies to observe and learn from them? As if Earth’s own history isn’t enough? Perhaps the biggest plot contrivance is this idea that everybody on Earth has become milquetoast and only drunken frat boys who have failed to live up to their potential can help lead them, and only 300 year old dictators can come up with ideas to protect them.

So what exactly is the point of Khan in this story? What is the allegory he helps represent? Honestly, it’s hard for me to imagine this is how Space Seed would play out in any universe. It just underscores that Marcus is an idiot, and couldn’t have known anything about Khan’s actual history, and therefore shouldn’t have known the value of Khan’s potential contributions to Starfleet. I’d be all for Khan in this story if anything about him made sense, in that we learn anything from his specific contributions to the film. But we really learn nothing about Khan, and in the end nothing from him. I mean what’s the lesson here, don’t hire criminals to help you think like a criminal, and if you do make sure you keep them under lock and key? Don’t try to tame a Lion? Seriously, he’s an absolutely wasted opportunity here. And for the general audience who is paying attention, it’s got to be really confusing: He’s 300 years old? Well surely that will pay off somehow in some interesting way … oh wait it doesn’t … it’s totally unnecessary to the story.

597. Thorny - June 1, 2013

591…

“The Fugitive”, and there’s Harrison Ford again. Funny how he keeps popping up! Also a case can be made for “Get Smart” and “The Brady Bunch”, I mean Gary Cole’s impersonation of Robert Reed is just plain eerie, and Shelly Long did a great Florence Henderson, too.

598. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

@590. Disinvited,
“Sometimes to look forward, you have to remember the past”

I agree with this assessment. Although, I’m sure they got excited about Khan the first time Orci presented his parallel universe idea for rebooting the first film while preserving canon — “so we can do Khan but differently”.

Considering Star Trek II & III were directed by two different directors, Abrams not being available here should not be an issue assuming they were planning for a trilogy from the start, or at least a final two-parter.

Is there a “remember” moment aside from the obvious putting Khan back into cryo storage?

And just because they have started their 5 year mission doesn’t mean they can’t be called back to Earth to help fight the Klingons. It also doesn’t mean Khan couldn’t get free and go find the Enterprise wherever they might be — this would certainly justify reviving Khan for STID and otherwise under utilizing him.

599. William Bradley - June 1, 2013

… This should read: It turns out that Khan was one of the super-tyrants they kinda admired, because he was NOT as monstrous as described in STID.

> It turns out that Khan was one the super-tyrants they kinda admired, because he was as monstrous as described in STID.

600. Thorny - June 1, 2013

582… I really don’t consider that a plot hole. Once they knew this guy was THE Khan of legend, the Enterprise crew knew who they were up against and what he was. It would be like some guy being unfrozen today and telling you his name is Robert. Okay, so cool, he’s been flash-frozen for 150 years, that’s amazing and all that but, so what? Oh wait, then you find out his full name is Robert E. Lee…

601. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

@593. Exverlobter,
“Another Review from Mr. Plinkett”

I’m pretty sure that review contains an illegally obtained clip of Spock screaming “Khaaaaaaan!”

602. William Bradley - June 1, 2013

Sorry, 582, that’s a big negatori on both scores.

In Space Seed, our crew immediately references the Eugenics Wars as soon as they see Botany Bay and realize its age.

And as soon as Khan is brought aboard Enterprise, they specifically discuss the likelihood of what he really is, in this scene:

KIRK: Common courtesy, Mister Spock. He’ll spend the rest of his days in our time. It’s only decent to help him catch up. Would you estimate him to be a product of selective breeding?
SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves.
SPOCK: Because the scientists overlooked one fact. Superior ability breeds superior ambition.

Then it’s just a question of drawing him out and figuring out which one he is. It turns out that Khan was the one super-tyrant kinda admired, because he was not as monstrous as described in STID.

THEN THERE IS THIS MYTH I see spinning up that the original Spock was emotional like alt-Spock, at least in early Star Trek.

Not so.

In fact, in the pilot that actually launched Star Trek, Where No Man Has Gone Before, he is explicitly presented as coldly analytical. Literally from the very first Kirk-Spock scene on:

[Briefing room]

SPOCK: Your move, Captain.
KIRK: We should have intercepted by now. The Bridge said they’d call.
SPOCK: I’ll have you checkmated your next move.
KIRK: Have I ever mentioned you play a very irritating game of chess, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: Irritating? Ah, yes. One of your Earth emotions.

In fact, that is the very first scene of the pilot.

>582. Sprout – May 31, 2013
@577

Talk about plot holes in Space Seed. First the crew has no idea who or what Kahn is, then, after a commercial break and Spock googling him (someone else said “googling” in a long-ago post, but I thought it was brilliant), the entire senior staff is sitting around the table talking about how they admired Kahn like they had studied him at the Academy. And I loved how in STID, McCoy refered to Kahn as a superman. They must’ve said that a half-dozen times in Space Seed.

Anyway, I’m thinking that now they’re heading on 5-year mission per TOS, maybe Spock will evolve into a more Vulcanian (sorry, Space Seed reference again) state of mind. In the very early Treks, Spock was too smiley, loud, etc., before settling into the Spock we know and love. Maybe Spock/Quinto will harden into a more familiar Spock. Or not. Either way, love having the Enterprise and her crew back in action.

603. William Bradley - June 1, 2013

… It’s rather odd, I think, that posts appear and disappear and then appear again.

604. William Bradley - June 1, 2013

… and then disappear again.

Works for story.

605. Philip Grom - June 1, 2013

@ Bob Orci, Well for what it’s worth, here’s my amateur review of Star Trek Into Darkness:

http://pgsrealmoviereviews.blogspot.com/2013/06/star-trek-into-darkness-one-hell-of.html

606. boborci - June 1, 2013

605 Phillip,

Thanks! Nice review!

607. Ahmed - June 1, 2013

@bob,

Beside Ender’s Game, what other major works you are working on?

608. Craiger - June 1, 2013

Hey Bob do you like Hawaii 5-0 moving to Friday? Is that a bad sign for the series?

Also have you given any more thought about rebooting The Final Countdown?

609. boborci - June 1, 2013

608. Craiger

Seems like a good night for it to me!

610. boborci - June 1, 2013

607. Ahmed – June 1, 2013

Spiderman and Mummy and Van Helsing for film

Sleepy Hollow for TV

611. KHAAAN the weasel - June 1, 2013

@594:
Oh yeah, actually that movie sorta begs for the classic Plinkett-treatment. However I kinda doubt, that there will be a FULL Plinkett review (the video posted today was pretty much just a vignette of sorts), as almost everything that could be said about the movie has already been said in Stoklasa’s and Bauman’s “Half in the Bag” review. But well, you never know.

612. Craiger - June 1, 2013

I forgot that Blue Bloods is doing well on Friday’s.

Do you plan on doing another NCIS: LA crossover? Or maybe a NCIS crossover?

613. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

Yikes!!

Star Trek got pushed down to #5 position behind After Earth, Now You See Me, and Hangover III, by large margins. And it just barely beat Epic.

This is exactly where ST09 found itself after Memorial Day. The difference? ST09 had an extra week at #1 than STID got before dropping to 5th. This all but gurantees STID will fall behind ST09 after Monday.

But After Earth has gotten horrible reviews. Chances are word of mouth will help steer folks away from it after Friday, despite Will Smith’s limited appearance in it. Now You See Me did surprisingly well considering its reviews, and should fall off as well from word of mouth. This weekend will be very interesting to watch …

614. Bucky - June 1, 2013

I really, really hope when the IDW John Harrison mini hits, it takes the “Khan was cosmetically altered by Marcus and Section 31″ route. Because I personally kinda like it as a motivating factor for Khan’s anger in the flick towards Harrison & anyone else, it plays a bit deeper.

As for the rest of the IDW series, I think I read that Mike Johnson said they were going to do stories that orbit around the events of “Star Trek Into Darkness”, which could be a blast. It’d be fun to have an issue where Checkov is running around engineering all stressed out, or maybe some fallout of the angry Klingons they ran into.

615. Capt Dunzel - June 1, 2013

Ugh!!! STID sucked big time! Awful! Special effects, music, design, sound – ok good. But the rest of it? Ughhh Awful! JJAbrams – it’s Star TREK, NOT StarWars!….and JJAbrams’ Kirk is a total loser! Not the heroic more respectable Shatner version. What’s with the cursing? Made me lose respect for StarFleet officers. What’s with the militarized-gray-nzi costumes?….and you call those guys Klingons??? JJAbrams, go to do StarWars and ruin another franchise. Just don’t warp back to StarTrek.

616. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

^^^^^613 Curious Cadet more,

STID is only leading ST09 by about $1.5 million as of today. My guess is, unless this weekend turns around its going to fall roughly $8 million behind ST09 after Monday and continue falling behind until it closes. It still might break $200 million domestically though, and foreign will likely make up the total difference. However, the studio gets less of the foreign box office than domestic, so the numbers could basically work out to be the same, before accounting for inflation.

617. Luibi - June 1, 2013

@562. Classy M – May 31, 2013
“But the biggest draw is unquestionably Cumberbatch. He’s huge in China. His nickname is ‘Volume Blessing’.”

Ah… the translation done by Google Translator is forever “amusing,” but no, Benedict’s nickname in China is “Curly Holmes.” (卷福) coming from his Sherlock curly mop, and he knows that’s his nickname in China. Here are two video interviews he did with Chinese media, in which he actually mentioned that when promoting STID.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTYxMDc4MDUy.html
http://ent.sina.com.cn/m/f/2013-05-28/08323930468.shtml

Speaking as his fan residing in the greater China area; yes, he’s very popular in China and Paramount and the local distributor indeed rather thoroughly leverage his popularity to promo the movie here. Actually it seems that Paramount Japan is more or less trying to do so in Japan as well; ever since his STID press tour to Japan last December, there’s at least one film magazine featuring him or him on the cover coming out every month; I guess the hysteria created by the unexpected 500+ exciting Cumberbatch fans welcoming him at Narita Int’l Airport gave them some ideas. A popular Chinese movie site Mtime even presents a 17 min in-depth profile interview with him, which covers STID, Sherlock, his family background and career to date, and two of his significant performances as Hawking and Vincent Van Gogh that the Western interviewers rarely got him to talk about. http://news.mtime.com/2013/05/12/1511595.html

That being said, “huge” is a very tricky word and not what I would use to describe his current status in China; at the moment he is yet to reach the star power owned by Tom Cruise, Leonardo DiCaprio or RDJ who can open a multimillion action flick globally on their own, nor is he a dramatic A lister in the global film world like Meryl Streep or DDL yet, in spite of the fact that many people here do think he’s a tremendous actor and would get in theatres for him. Please also note that ST itself is not a very well known franchise in China or Asia, and the marketing budget of STID can’t possibly compare with Iron Man 3, which is also a much more popular franchise. Besides, Iron Man 3 opened in the beginning of Golden Week Holiday commencing May 1st in China; STID was released (May 28th) before the summer break begins and National Higher Education Entrance Examination (the sort of equivalent of SAT in the US) finishes, so many high school students won’t be going to movies, and soon it’ll face stiff competitions from Man of Steel, F&F 6, Monsters University. STID performs much better in the greater China area, including China, HK and Taiwan than Star Trek did in 2009, and Benedict is indeed one of the draws, but please don’t expect it to be a big hit. As far as I know some of Benedict’s fans have watched STID in IMAX 3 times in China, but a B.O. hit can’t solely count on diehard fans of stars or the franchise, and the movie is not without its flaws.

@477. Curious Cadet
“The irony is that STID has done amazing things for Cumberbatch’s career, but Cumberbatch did little for it at this juncture.”

I think it’s fair to say that STID is Benedict’s mainstream breakout to the mass audience in the US, but long before this movie was released, he’s already an acclaimed actor known by the US film/TV critics and awards pundits due to his work in War Horse, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, Frankenstein and Sherlock, and have garnered a cult following stateside, which mostly consists of the exact demo (teen/ early 20s girls) and geek community that Paramount would like to attract for this franchise, and presumably people who frequent this site are aware that Paramount’s domestic/ US marketing (TV spots, trailers and the poster) wasn’t focusing on selling Cumberbatch and the villain.

As for the international market, he’s a very popular and acclaimed actor in the UK, his turf; that certainly helped B.O.-wise; he has healthy fanbases in Russia and some European countries since 2010; also, it’s quite obvious that Paramount Int’l and/or the local distributors in some Asian countries, where this franchise is not very well known, are trying to leverage his popularity gained due to Sherlock. He has five movies coming out this year, including two tentpoles: STID and the second Hobbit installment, The Desolation of Smaug, in which he plays the titular dragon Smaug via mo-cap and voice-over, and three Oscar-baits: August: Osage County (alongside Meryl Streep and Julia Roberts), The Fifth Estate (he’s the lead as Julian Assange) and Twelve Years A Slave, a Steve McQueen film, and he’s already getting early awards buzz for his parts in AOC and TFE, and despite the thin character, for his performance in STID, though admittedly an acting nod for a part in a blockbuster is very unlikely. His casting in the Hobbit was in summer 2011, before his was even cast in STID; he started shooting TYAS and AOC about two months after he wrapped up STID, and his casting as Julian Assange was in early November 2012, all before the world saw his character front and center on the int’l poster and the kick-off of STID marketing campaign in early December 2012; not saying that his casting in STID didn’t help a little bit, but it’s truer that he’s one of the “IT” actors at the moment mostly due to his own merits, and saying that he did little for STID is certainly not true.

618. PP - June 1, 2013

@596. Curious Cadet

thx for your additional explanation. I can see your points, and I admit, that your argumentation is logical. So I think the “bitter” truth is, that there is only one reason for Khan beeing in the movie: the writers wanted to have him. But thats a problem for many movies: some plotdetails are not logical. And that applys for the biggest and best rated movies too (for example: Dark Knight, Star Wars).

619. P Technobabble - June 1, 2013

593. Disinvited and 597. Thorny

Those are good examples, guys, although having a profound dislike for The Brady Bunch prevented me from seeing that film. But I do agree about The Addams Family, The Fugitive and I do like Steve Carrell, so I’ll give you that one.

And, yes, I was referring to films that were recast. Otherwise we’d all mostly likely say that previous Star Trek films were prefectly cast!

I also think most would agree that any time a new actor is recast when another actor is so strongly identified with a role, it’s gonna be a hard sell. Or if people can’t imagine an actor in one of these roles (like Michael Keaton as Batman). Most agree that the recasting of Star Trek has been superb, but I don’t think any of these actors want to become too strongly identified with these roles. We know how hard it was (and in some cases even impossible) for TOS actors to break free of their characters. If Pine, for example, is going to have a great film career ahead of him, he probably will not want people pointing at him saying, “Hey, there’s the new Capt. Kirk!”

620. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

@614. Bucky,
“I really, really hope when the IDW John Harrison mini hits, it takes the “Khan was cosmetically altered by Marcus and Section 31″ route.”

I’m gonna say now, we won’t get an explanation. Marcus will find Harrison on the Botany Bay looking the way he does in the film, if its depicted at all.

Think about it, we know Khan is white because Orci was uncomfortable making a terrorist ‘brown’ and wanted to ensure Khan looked like ‘one of us’ for the political allegory. Now imagine in the comic that Marcus takes a ‘brown’ man and forcibly alters him to look like a white man (not just disguising him, but changing his RACE!). Nothing politically incorrect about that … moreover, it confirms that the terrorist really is ‘brown’ and changes the meaning of his role in the film. Of COURSE Khan would be upset, and not just because of his ‘genetically-engineered-superior-vanity’.

So I’m pretty sure we’re not going to get a ‘canon’ explanation of any kind.

621. P Technobabble - June 1, 2013

Bob Orci –
Clearly, you are a very busy man! Do you typically pick the projects that you get involved with? Is there a particular film or tv project that you, personally, would love to have a go at?

622. boborci - June 1, 2013

613. Curious Cadet – June 1, 2013

Actually, Now You See Me got an A- cinema score, so word of mouth should be good, which is nice since my company produced that movie.

623. boborci - June 1, 2013

621. P Technobabble – June 1, 2013

Well of course we pick them! You think we’re working off a prison sentence?

Would love to tell you what we wanna do next, but then all the agencies would scramble in weird ways…

624. Thorny - June 1, 2013

613… Star Trek 2009 was not No.1 in its second week. It was No.2 behind “Angels and Demons”.

625. Craiger - June 1, 2013

Hey Bob what about this for ST 3. It wouldn’t have to be in 2267 since the timeline’s been altered. This could fit with STID.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation-Klingon_War_(2267)

626. Phil - June 1, 2013

AMC Riverside 3:50 showing. Hopefully my appointment will be done in time…

627. Mad Mann - June 1, 2013

I wonder what the film-makers consider to be the biggest improvement from their two Star Trek films.

For me, it would be the treatment of Scotty. Scotty actually got to do a bunch of Scotty-type things in this. I wonder if there is any consideration to how similar Scotty is to Pegg’s Benji from the MI movies.

628. Phil - June 1, 2013

Okay, I know I’m whining now, but can we at least scratch interstellar war off the list of potential topics for the third installment? I would not mind a good suspense story about how it’s averted, but if we want to see spaceships blasting each other that’s what we have Star Wars for.

Huge space cruisers blasting away at each other, and not a fire control computer to be found anywhere. Yep, sounds like Star Wars to me….

629. dmduncan - June 1, 2013

To boborci:

628. Phil – June 1, 2013

Okay, I know I’m whining now, but can we at least scratch interstellar war off the list of potential topics for the third installment? I would not mind a good suspense story about how it’s averted, but if we want to see spaceships blasting each other that’s what we have Star Wars for.

***

Hey, I’m in agreement with you Phil. If Bob is interested in a Klingon war story, a suspense story about HOW THE WAR IS AVERTED is the way to go.

630. Rich - June 1, 2013

I was one of the minority who really didn’t like the movie, again, probably due to my TWOK-reciting heritage. It seemed like plagiarism. And the “Spock phoning a friend” solution seemed like an extreme disservice to a very self-sufficient, brilliant character. And I’m not even going to go into the Magic Khanberbatch Blood Deus Ex Machina.

HOWEVER, I gain comfort that people like me who have seen it multiple times like it more each time. I will be getting the Blu-ray, and I will watch it several more times. Not giving up on it completely, but my first viewing felt like a gut-shot. I literally needed whiskey afterward to calm down. I know… what a nerd. But I sincerely look forward to being proven wrong. I really really want to be wrong.

631. Merchant of Vulcan - June 1, 2013

The Klingons should be a constant, very intense threat, but I would like to see a one to one battle (ie Enterprise V. Reliant) short of an all out war. Let Kirk be at the pivotal focus of out-maneuvering an experienced Klingon Captain. maybe something along the lines of Elaan of Troyius.

632. Craiger - June 1, 2013

A general movie going audience wants action and space battles in Scifi movies. They don’t want thought provoking Scifi movies. They would think those are boring.

633. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

@624. Thorny – June 1, 2013
“613… Star Trek 2009 was not No.1 in its second week. It was No.2 behind “Angels and Demons”.

You’re right, it came in second by only $3 million, with Wolverine coming in a distant third.

Either way, that’s better than the distant third STID earned in its second week, no? STID looks to enter its third week at about the same place ST09 was in by its 4th, which will hurt it in the long run.

@622. boborci – June 1, 2013,
“Actually, Now You See Me got an A- cinema score”

Congratulations! I was just going by Rotten Tomatoes which gives it a pretty poor overall score. Doesn’t bode as well for Trek though, but I’m not really worried, as I’m sure you aren’t.

634. IDIC Lives! - June 1, 2013

This is probably not right at all, but I was thinking on WHY STID has not drawn the U.S. box office while the 2009 movie (allowing for the relative differences in budget, etc.), did better. And I came up with the question, is it just a bad title, especially when connected to Star Trek?

Of course Trekkers don’t care what you call it, but Mr. and Ms Joe Public and their kids do – is it just too big a bummer? And was the general public under-estimated in its grasp of Star Trek and its themes, messages, premise–maybe the public EXPECTS Trek to be positive in thrust.

Of course bad situations are always run into but perhaps Trek and the “ultimate augment evil guy” (not to mention the nasty Star Fleet Rumsfeld guy), are just too dreary to commit your $8.00 to in a real and dreary world.

Maybe the public really does want to meet aliens through Trek and have the sensation of going into deep, unimaginable space? “Star Trek: Into the Unknown Galaxy” –I wonder if it would have done better? Am sure there are better titles than that, but you get my drift.

TOS became immortal because it estimated its audience to be intelligent. Roddenberry said, “The people are light years ahead of their petty, bickering governments.” Yet, JJ’s version can’t get off the ground away from San Francisco and a bickering government. There’s no magic in “darkness.”

Shatner and Nimoy also were somehow “aimed” at dignity and intelligence. I know those aren’t supposed to sell–but look at what TOS did!
This said, I loved STID! I am expressing many varied opinions simultaneously.

635. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

@629. dmduncan / Phil,
“Hey, I’m in agreement with you Phil. If Bob is interested in a Klingon war story, a suspense story about HOW THE WAR IS AVERTED is the way to go.”

Wasn’t that called Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country?

636. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 1, 2013

#619 – “If Pine, for example, is going to have a great film career ahead of him, he probably will not want people pointing at him saying, “Hey, there’s the new Capt. Kirk!””

Anymore than he might want people pointing at him saying, “Hey, there’s Jack Ryan!”? Surely, it is part of the nature of the business is that, if you do your job well as an actor, that some people will identify you by one of the characters you have played, the ones they have seen, remembered and liked. It is a *risk* that Chris Pine must have been aware of…

Actually, I do not think anybody knows what Chris Pine thinks or wants in this respect. Maybe he has been quoted making a clear statement, which made its way to the internet, but then I would need to go “stalk” him in order to find out. Isn’t that right, S/U Admirer? (Sorry, still smarting about that one…happens sometimes).

This is just (presumptuous) gossip, the same stuff that some people here have more or less accused me of and what’s more, this is not the first time, not by any means, that people have just assumed his attitudes.

637. Red Dead Ryan - June 1, 2013

I would also like to see an end to the “madman out for revenge” trend that we have witnessed in the last four Trek movies.

638. dmduncan - June 1, 2013

Well ST.09 was an extremely positive film. For me, personally, STID deals with unpleasant things that do happen, that are necessary and in the tradition of the franchise’s best episodes to address…but which may not be as sell-able as more positive fare.

You think of Star Wars which ends with the destruction of the terrifying Death Star, and you have a great movie with all the right elements that ends with good news. It’s positive.

Even though STID ends with the good guys winning, it also leaves you feeling humbled. Sort of like Revenge of the Sith, whose political realities are too close to those of our own times to watch comfortably.

639. dmduncan - June 1, 2013

635: “Wasn’t that called Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country?”

Was TMP called The Changeling? Old earth probe gets lost, repaired by alien probe and given enormous power, returns to find its maker.

Honestly, I can think of some war-averting scenarios that are farther apart from TUC than TMP was from The Changeling.

640. dmduncan - June 1, 2013

And if you want to talk sheer relevance to our times, the message of averting war can’t be over-delivered.

641. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 1, 2013

Constant fighting, whether it be hand-to-hand or via weapons, become too uncomfortable and unnecessary distractions. I watched the latest Sherlock Holmes – Game of Shadows on DVD last night. It really is a good movie, but was let down by the viciousness and quantity of the violence. This is normal for most movies of its genre and Star Trek is doing the same, because that is what seems to be expected.

James Kirk is not a “superman”, an augment or whatever. He is an ordinary, albeit bright and fit young man. Yet we see him get constantly, viciously, punched and kicked by someone who is much stronger and lethal and still Kirk gets up with not so much as a limp or bruise. It is a shocking message to send to people, especially impressionable young macho guys. Only, at the end, when radiation poisoning gets him is he seen to need help. I guess it is buying into that “*pain is just weakness leaving the body” bullshit that seems to, pretty much, explain it all.

However, the writers did much to humanize these characters (in a mostly positive way) and yet they get called out by some posters because of this very reality. I seriously have to ask – who ARE some of you people?

* Anyone who has seen This Means War should recognise that quote. It takes near the beginning of the film when Tuck is watching his son participate in a judo type class. The instructor is a big man who slaps Tuck on the ass hard, while he is helping his young son get his gear together in order to leave. Tuck gets up and confronts the guy. The guy then slaps Tuck’s face and then says “Pain is just weakness leaving the body”. Tuck simply leaves, not wanting to get into any altercation with this big bully in front of his son and the other children.

642. William Bradley - June 1, 2013

That looks intriguing and fun, not to mention a counter-programming hit!

> 622. boborci – June 1, 2013
613. Curious Cadet – June 1, 2013

Actually, Now You See Me got an A- cinema score, so word of mouth should be good, which is nice since my company produced that movie.

643. Red Dead Ryan - June 1, 2013

Christopher Nolan’s “Interstellar” will deal with space exploration, but it sounds like its going to be hard sci-fi in that it covers some of Albert Einstein’s theories so its not going to be in the same vein as “Star Trek” but more like “2001: A Space Odyssey”. Still, if the movie is a big hit, then I think there is a possibility that a future Trek movie will depict something other than space battles and vengeful madmen.

Oh, yeah, Michael Caine and Anne Hathaway are going to be in the film, so Nolan’s trend for rehiring actors from his other films continues.

644. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

@639. dmduncan,
“Honestly, I can think of some war-averting scenarios that are farther apart from TUC than TMP was from The Changeling.”

Oh as can I … However considering they quoted so heavily from one popular Nicholas Meyer film in the franchise, I just assumed they might pay ‘homage’ to the other one next … *wink*

645. Aurore - June 1, 2013

“…Think about it, we know Khan is white because Orci was uncomfortable making a terrorist ‘brown’…”
________

Personally, I know Khan is white because Damon Lindelof said to Mr. Abrams ( speaking about Mr. Cumberbatch ) ; ” You have to check out this guy…”

( “Master Class” event with Mr. Abrams. Starts at 51 : 36 ):

http://trekmovie.com/2013/04/28/watch-jj-abrams-into-darkness-cast-australia-junket-vids-bizarre-german-interview-paris-masterclass/

…But, perhaps what Mr. Abrams does not say is that they started looking for an actor such as Mr. Cumberbatch, after Roberto Orci had expressed “discomfort” at the idea of, as you put it, “making a terrorist ‘brown’”…

646. Exverlobter - June 1, 2013

Here an interesting article about the Khan/Non-Khan disaster.

http://www.chud.com/136147/learn-how-hard-jj-abrams-worked-to-lie-about-star-trek-into-darkness/

647. Hugh Hoyland - June 1, 2013

In my mind STID has much more in common story wise with Star Trek 6 TUC than it does with Star Trek 2 TWOK. A shady MIC plot to start a war and militarize the Federation, false flags ect ect.

648. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

@647 Hugh Hoyland,

I would agree with that. They’ve pretty much already done the avoidance of war with the Klingons story. I mean if the film ends with them starting their 5 year mission a year later, and the Klingons have still not started massing at the borders, then they pretty much avoided the war, I’d say.

If not, that’s a plot hole they can plug in the next film.

They pretty much already did the Kirk-needs-to-grow-up-and-earn-the-captains-chair in the first film too, so why not a repeat of the let’s-avoid-a-war with the Klingons? Maybe a Cold War this time …

649. Mel - June 1, 2013

Have you seen this gif set? Does anyone have a link to the video, where it is from?

http://divorcedreality.tumblr.com/post/49801691644/who-is-your-favourite-villain

Who is your favourite villain?
John Cho: Ricardo Montalban as Khan. He was badass. And a man of colour, I might add.
(nervous laughter)

650. Curious Cadet - June 1, 2013

@649. Mel – June 1, 2013,

http://youtu.be/adfGdgu6w4s

651. Todd - June 1, 2013

Just went and saw with my son for the 2nd time, the movie, despite it’s early 3:20 pm start was almost as full as it was last weekend when I saw it the first time. Still enjoyed it as much even though I knew what happened.

652. Emperor Mike of Tos Empire. - June 1, 2013

Hey Bob Orci. Lee Harvey Oswalds Home is for sale. Interested.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/31/lee-harvey-oswald-house_n_3365118.html

653. Mad Mann - June 1, 2013

628. Phil – June 1, 2013

That sounds cool: How about something similar to Errand of Mercy (minus the Organians) that will show how Kirk fights against Kor to stop a war. Kor wants war for the sheer glory of it, while Kirk fights him at first, but then realizes that fighting with force isn’t the answer and works to stop the war before it starts. There could still be some minor space battles, but not one to serve as the climax to the story. I wouldn’t even have Kor as the main villain, but the villain would be the possibility of war itself.

IDK: maybe it sounds too much like Star Trek VI:TUC.

654. Mad Mann - June 1, 2013

The ending of the next could be the crew going off their separate ways. They would have come back from their 5-year mission (or three years cuz it got cut as an in-joke how the TOS was cancelled after three seasons) and explored much of the unknown space, made huge accomplishments. Then they somehow save the Universe that incorporates something from the 2009 movie, maybe something that Nero did to space-time with the Red Matter so that it book-ends the trilogy. This would have to happen while stopping the war with the Klingons, specifically Kor.

It would end on a somber note with Kirk being promoted to Admiral, marrying Carol, and taking a desk job. Maybe Sulu would be promoted to the Enterprise-A at the end, and the others doing different things.

655. dmduncan - June 1, 2013

The Organian Peace Treaty occurred during the 5 year mission, as did the “war” it was created to avoid.

But that’s not what I would have in mind for the sequel.

656. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 1, 2013

Are we not going round the same old circles…:(

What about visiting the Caitian homeworld and then discovering Menosians/Nulis? What about discovering a part of the galaxy that has the natural anomaly of a giant tide that ebbs and flows, uncovering some worlds while covering others? Is that even possible, in terms of what is known of quantum mechanics/astrophysics/sciences? Does it even matter?

I want to be taken where we have not been before or maybe even take others where I might go – into the world of science-fiction/fantasy, imagination and *romance, where a certain fear of the unknown and excitement actually meet…
(War, rumours of war, violence and brutality do not meet that criteria)

*”Romance or romantic usually refers to Romance (love), love emphasizing emotion over libido.” but not necessarily excluding libido(sex) either.

Bob Orci?
(Please – no more war!)

657. Oz - June 1, 2013

Since Bob Orci is around now and then in this thread, a few comments.

I enjoyed the movie, have seen it twice, and actually enjoyed it more the second time. You guys packed alot of stuff in there! On second viewing, certain plot points became clearer and did not bother me as much. Odd, but true. Overall very entertaining film.

Humble suggestions for your next Trek, many of which are similar to some other commenters. I offer the following with respect, I’m a 53 yr. old original series fan and have enjoyed your work.

1. Please break out of the madman-bent-on-revenge-threatening-earth rut you’re getting into. I’m hoping that since you have officially sent them out on the 5 year exploration mission this is your intent.

2. A Strange New Worlds story would be great. Perhaps tougher to write, but you guys love a challenge right? New planet(s), civilization(s), problem/dilemma for Kirk and crew. If you feel you must have a familiar villainous element, perhaps the Klingons could interfere.

3. Remember the galaxy is gigantic. Even for the Enterprise, it takes awhile to get from point A to point B. The last two movies have made it seem like a quick drive down the corner store to get from Earth to Vulcan and Earth to the Klingon homeworld. The Enterprise should be far enough out that it can’t phone home or expect help with every little problem.

4. Be careful with giving our people technology with too much capability. Now the next time Kirk and ensign Red Shirt are in trouble, a few light years away, you’re going to have to explain why Scotty’s transwarp beaming dealio can’t save the day, right? David Gerrold wrote about this in his “World of Star Trek” book. Even with the regular transporter, either the natives had to be so primitive that they clubbed the landing party over the head and stole their communicators, or they were so advanced their tech could block the transporter. That was the only way to explain why our heroes could not simply be beamed up out of danger instantly. Now you’ve added the ability for interstellar transport? Why even have ships?

4. Kirk and Spock playing chess!

5. I could probably go on and on, but it will be a miracle if anybody reads even this far.

Keep up the good work Mr. Orci, despite the flak you take from some fans I think you are doing just fine.

658. Jonboc - June 1, 2013

Saw into darkness again tonight, and as hard as it is to believe, there were still audible gasps and whispers when Harrison reveals his true identity. Lots of sniffling too, when Kirk dies. And plenty of laughs in all the right places. Seemed to be an older crown than last time. But lots of smiles coming out of the 3/4 full theater this evening. The actors are all so bloody good, it seems to get better with each subsequent viewing. Again, great job Bob, the whole Into Darkness crew needs to take a well deserved bow. funny how each viewing brings different things to light….tonight it was the magnificent sound effects…from the cage-like atmosphere on the Klingon home world to those wonderful TOS-like heart beat monitors in sickbay and that amazing warp ” punch” effect that is always so cool to watch. Good stuff.

if this thing is still playing In 2 or 3 weeks, I think I’m going to go see it again.

659. Phil - June 1, 2013

Okay, I can fill out the polls now….

660. Phobos in Montreal - June 1, 2013

@659 Phil
So, what did you think of the movie?

My tally is 5x IMAX 3D and 1x UltraAVX. Has anyone here broken that record? I am Star Trek Into Darkness’ biggest fan ;-)

I went again tonight. Was a full house.
Might go back tomorrow as I think this is the last weekend for IMAX.
Cinemax does not list what is playing next weekend. Weird huh?

Weekend after that is Superman of course. That is going to be fun also. Albeit the Zod story and the francise has been reboot perhaps too many time by way of Christover Reeves Superman II, Smallville and Superman Return. I am still looking forward to it though.

It’s turning out to be a fun summer at the movies.

661. P Technobabble - June 1, 2013

623. boborci

LOL I can just see you shackled, pen in hand and a guard yelling, “Now write!”
As for what’s next, I should know: never ask a magician to reveal his secrets.
PS: I loved, loved, loved STID.

662. Merchant of Vulcan - June 1, 2013

For the 50th anniversary maybe a visit to the Talos star group where it all began?

663. Jack - June 1, 2013

Wow, crazy busy Saturday night at the theatre — everything sold out or limited seating left — including all showings of Into Darkness. I’m becoming more fond of the movie — this makes 3.4 viewings (I snuck in to watch the last 20 minutes while waiting to see After Earth, which I expect to be absolutely terrible (the guy I’m dating picked it).

664. Jack - June 1, 2013

Btw, I read the Trek ID novel — as the novels usually do, it did a better job at a bit of the dialogue, especially the technical stuff (the volcano mucking up the shuttle and transporters, for example — although it kind of went in to too much repetetive detail (never satisfied, us geeks).

Okay. I was mad at these guys (Bob etc.) for shoehorning in Khan. And that endless fistfight on the barge. But I’m liking the movie more and more.

665. McCoy's #3Fan - June 1, 2013

#457 I love your posts. McCoy has been my favorite since I stumbled across my first TOS episode, the original airing of “Friday’s Child”.

I’m boycotting watching STID in a theater because McCoy has been so marginalized. Even if the triumvirate hasn’t formed yet, the good doctor is still an interesting character and I’d like to see what he’s doing…the CMO is an important position and McCoy is neither a buffoon nor a coward. I’m seeing lots of reviews complaining that he is underused, underwritten, sidelined, secondary, etc.

McCoy not being summoned when Kirk is dying needed to have been explained. Also imho not having any interaction between Spock Prime and nu McCoy is an omission. I vote that McCoy and Carol Marcus hook up in the next sequel–it’s an alternate universe, let Bones get the girl!…

666. Dennis C - June 1, 2013

Saw it again and still irked by everything that irked me the first time out. Characterizations were handled well but every little time to spend on those big emotional moments and the lighter ones well. Now that we’ve cut back on the lens flares maybe we can scale back the smash cuts and perhaps learn how to transition from one scene to the next with a lingering thought and a dissolve?

Theater was fairly empty, maybe thirty people at most. It’s entering week three so that’s to be expected but somewhat surpring since it was still playing in a larger auditorium.

667. Mad Mann - June 1, 2013

I think the biggest question for their third Star Trek movie is: What Beastie Boys song are you gonna use this time?

ST 09: Sabotage
STiD: Body Moving
ST ’16: Girls? Three MCs and One DJ? Intergalactic? (nah, too obvious)

I’m gonna vote for So What’cha Want? For no good reason, I just think it could fit with Kirk in bar fight scene again or something…. Although, Paul Revere lyrics about three guys meeting could be about Kirk, Spock, and McCoy….or something…what?

668. Twilight Trek - June 1, 2013

Mr. Orci,
1. Thank you for creating a “bad guy” that I could sympathize with and at times even root for AND for not having the movie climax be the bad guy being killed. I know you attempted to do this in ST2009 but for some reason the baddie in that movie still ended up feeling like a black hat. I hope there is no “bad guy” in the next movie. I’m tired of the “bad guy of the week” story but I am really really grateful this bad guy was at least someone part of me liked.
2. I really appreciated what you did with Scotty. It was cool that he stood up for what he believed in and resigned his position. One of the things that makes me love the TOS is that the crew always stood for what was right morally.
3. Thanks for including some moral to ponder over. Please continue this.

My requests for the next movie… please don’t let it be about the Klingons (boring), please no more space jumps or other things we already saw in the previous 2 movies, and please no more line by line quotes from other trek movies. References are fine but direct quotes taken from other movies just take me totally out of the experience. I hope the bromance story line between Kirk and Spock is finally over. If anything please focus on McCoy. Take us where we’ve never been before. Give us something that will blow our minds. A new moral challenge, a new something to over come… take us where us fans have never been taken before. Thanks

Thanks.

669. Phil - June 1, 2013

The Klingons, back in TOS, were the other half of a rough cold war analogy. They evolved from the ‘we take, we conquer’ mentality to an honor driven warrior society. Here is the problem with just dusting off the idea of having the Federation and Klingons duke it out in this universe – the new Klingons here are undefined, as is most of this universe, so there really isn’t any basis for having these societies just go to war without asking why. Back in TOS, there was this understanding in the show that even though powerful adversaries were being shown, they understood that fighting that war ultimately meant both sides would lose. Considering that STID was written with enough wiggle room for the third installment to head down this ‘nuke the universe’ path, it would be nice to not go there.

670. Elias Javalis - June 1, 2013

300 mil mark will be broken today! And it hasnt opened in 16 countries yet!

671. A Dealer in Kevas and Trillium - June 2, 2013

THEN THERE IS THIS MYTH I see spinning up that the original Spock was emotional like alt-Spock, at least in early Star Trek.
Not so.
In fact, in the pilot that actually launched Star Trek, Where No Man Has Gone Before, he is explicitly presented as coldly analytical. Literally from the very first Kirk-Spock scene on:
[Briefing room]

SPOCK: Your move, Captain.
KIRK: We should have intercepted by now. The Bridge said they’d call.
SPOCK: I’ll have you checkmated your next move.
KIRK: Have I ever mentioned you play a very irritating game of chess, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: Irritating? Ah, yes. One of your Earth emotions.

First, the last line in the dialogue was spoken by Spock with a rather superior SMILE/smirk.

Second, in the episode “This Side of Paradise” Kirk has to make Spock ANGRY to counter the effect of the spores. How does he do it? He insults Spock’s mother and refers to Spock’s mixed heritage. How does Spock react? With RAGE. Murderous RAGE. Whereupon the spores disappear from his system, Kirk apologizes, and all is well.

In case people didn’t notice, Spock spent plenty of time in STiD being rational and logical: simultaneously giving Pike “attitude” while being logical, and commanding the ship.

I agree that the fight scene on the Barge should have involved the special fighting technique the actor learned for the first Star Trek movie. It was based on Krav-Maga.

I agree with Keachick about “less violence” – the bone-crunching that went on was pretty violent, and the only part that seemed real to me was when Kirk was sitting recovering after getting beat up by the Klingons. How come after getting kicked in the torso, nobody ever has broken ribs?

And WHY does each movie feature a VILLAIN. Tired, tired, tired.

672. Jack - June 2, 2013

McCoy is handled fine in the movie.

Khan putting his people inside torpedoes still makes no fu*king sense, other than setting up a ‘wait a minute, 72????!’ moment for the 3 Trek fans on Earth who hadn’t known for months that Cumberbatch was playing Khan.

You can almost hear the sounds of the plot mechanically grinding away.

Also, again — they’ve got 72 of them (sure, we were told they might not survive the thawing, although McCoy then thawed one), why not take the magic healing resurrection blood from any of them?

And cold fusion isn’t actually cold…

673. Disinvited - June 2, 2013

#595. PP – June 1, 2013, 596. Curious Cadet – June 1, 2013

I think Marcus’ decision was to use Khan because the Admiral believes a few more centuries of psychological scientific advances will allow him to control this resource. It’s a classic theme explored in SF that man’s arrogance in pursuit of a higher end turns around and bites him in said end.

You know, Dr. Frankenstein so full of himself with the rightness of his theories that life can be created anew from the inanimated parts of what once was alive that he just assumes that he can dominate his creation with nary a thought of “What if this creature has other ideas?”

Marcus exploits Khan not because he buys Khan’s “Mine is the superior intellect.” twaddle, but because Khan is an intellect not constrained by the box of 23rd century intragalactic philosophy which the Admiral believes is luxury The Federation can ill afford in light of the clear fact that minds possessed of irrational thought have access to unimaginably destructive power.

674. Charles Trotter - June 2, 2013

620. Curious Cadet (cc boborci)

“I’m gonna say now, we won’t get an explanation. Marcus will find Harrison on the Botany Bay looking the way he does in the film, if its depicted at all.

“Think about it, we know Khan is white because Orci was uncomfortable making a terrorist ‘brown’ and wanted to ensure Khan looked like ‘one of us’ for the political allegory. Now imagine in the comic that Marcus takes a ‘brown’ man and forcibly alters him to look like a white man (not just disguising him, but changing his RACE!). Nothing politically incorrect about that … moreover, it confirms that the terrorist really is ‘brown’ and changes the meaning of his role in the film. Of COURSE Khan would be upset, and not just because of his ‘genetically-engineered-superior-vanity’.

“So I’m pretty sure we’re not going to get a ‘canon’ explanation of any kind.”

You may very well be right, but I don’t think you will be. I think boborci and the gang know that the majority of those reading the ‘Star Trek’ comics are ‘Star Trek’ fans. The movies are for a mainstream audience as well as the fans, but the comics are pretty much for fans only. As a Trek fan, Bob is aware of the fans’ love for canon and desire for canon explanations to seeming incongruities.

Having Khan looking and sounding like Cumberbatch right out of the cryo-chamber would be a disservice to the fans — and even a bit of an insult. And, since the comics are supposedly canon, it would also invalidate Bob’s claim that everything prior to 2233 is the same as in the prime universe, which some already have difficulty accepting considering the differences at the start of the 2009 film.

Also, since the comic supposedly to take place before Khan becomes the terrorist we see in STID, racial sensitivity should not come into play. Even if he’s shown as a terrorist in the comics, it still shouldn’t matter; as I said, it’s mostly Trek fans reading the comics, and the fans *know* Khan is Indian.

The key is to explain the change in race inoffensively and logically. For example, the explanation I came up with on my personal Memory Alpha page is that they decided to alter his voice and appearance to match those of one of his 12 followers who died in their cryo-chambers. Said follower happened to be white, lanky and British. Boom, done. If their explanation is anything like that, they’ll be solid.

Bottom line is, these prequel comics are there to serve as supplements to Trek fans, to fill us in on how and why certain things are the way they are in the movies. Explaining why Khan no longer looks, sounds or acts like Khan is exactly the kind of thing the book is meant to do. The fans expect it, many of them want it, some even demand it and, frankly, it will be the main reason many of them read it.

675. Charles Trotter - June 2, 2013

PS: As I said before, I personally don’t think an explanation for Khan’s race change is needed; the movie allows us to fill in the blanks ourselves. BUT if you’re gonna do a *canon* prequel comic about Khan’s revival and experience in this alternate timeline, there had better be some kind of explanation.

676. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@673/674. Charles Trotter,
“As a Trek fan, Bob is aware of the fans’ love for canon and desire for canon explanations to seeming incongruities.”

Is that why when asked for an explanation about Khan’s appearance his answer was a facetious “maybe he’s a shape shifter too”?

——————————-
“the movie allows us to fill in the blanks ourselves.”

Yes it does, just like ST09 allows us to decide for ourselves whether we’re in an alternate universe, or whether the original timeline is being overwritten ‘Back to the Future’ style, or something else. For once it would be nice to have a movie where major changes to canon can be agreed upon by all the fans.

Out of curiosity, while your own explanation is certainly possible, in as much as Orci’s ‘shape shifter’ explanation is too, why would they disguise one superman to look like another? I suppose it lowers the odds someone might recognize Khan who was the leader, but it doesn’t eliminate the possibility of recognizing one of his henchmen, any more than lowly Nazi concentration camp guards escaped prosecution because they weren’t as well known as Hitler.

677. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@669. Phil,
“there really isn’t any basis for having these societies just go to war without asking why.”

WMDs

The Klingons were in possession of the Narada for 25 years. Even with Marcus gone, there are others within the Federation who are concerned about thwarting the Klingons before they can use this technology to conquer the Federation.

And of course there’s always bringing Khan back to manipulate the Klingons into starting a war with the a federation in order to get them out of the way so he can rule the galaxy.

678. Aurore - June 2, 2013

Did anyone just started talking about “Khan” and “ethnicity” (again)?!

:)

Great discussion!

For my own selfish interest, please proceed.

PLEASE !!!

679. Jonboc - June 2, 2013

I really don’t think Khan’s appearance needs any more explaining than Kirk’s new blue eyes, or Chekov’s curly light brown hair. The alternate timeline pretty much covers it all…although I know, in fandom, speculation is half the fun!

As far as the next movie goes, I would love to see the crew stumble upon the Talosians for some Inception-like mind bending adventure. That could be really good and with their ability to create illusions. The only limitations would be the imaginations of the writers. An alternate timeline, where anything can happen paired with a race that can force realistic illusions into the minds of the crew…talk about taking the audience on a thrill ride, we wouldn’t know which way is up!

Go for it Bob Orci! Watch the Menagerie again and think of the possibilities!!

680. Aurore - June 2, 2013

…Still holding out hope for an article… or two on the (Khan) question. On this site. Soon.

If it happened, I would be quiet.

I would only participate in the discussion to say things like ; ” Well articulated XXXX”, or, ” Perfectly stated YYYY”…

I promise.

:)

681. P Technobabble - June 2, 2013

636. Keachick

You make a good point. Pine, and the others, probably had a good idea what they were getting into by taking on the Trek roles. And, no, I don’t think Pine would want to be too identified with Jack Ryan either.
Going back to Harrison Ford for a moment, he is an actor who has played numerous “iconic” characters – Han Solo, Indiana Jones, Jack Ryan – yet has managed to avoid being completely identified solely with any one of these characters and has found success in others roles.
Is there a case that Bruce Willis is another who has managed to avoid being identified solely with John McLane?
I’m sure there are others, too…
Perhaps it is a matter of simply making the character believable no matter what the role?

682. weeharry - June 2, 2013

As far as the next movie is concerned, I personally am hoping for an original antagonist rather than another take on an old story, but…

…having said that, I agree with #678, in that if the guys must revisit something, then the menagerie/the cage would make sense, especially since it would be a nice way to commemorate the 50th anniversary, and the Talosians would be a conceivable way to allow Spock prime to reunite with Kirk prime, should there still be a will for that to happen

683. Craiger - June 2, 2013

Could one reason as to why Harrison didn’t look like Khan is after Admiral Marcus found Khan, that Khan agreed with him to have himself altered so he didn’t look like Khan? They could have had has face and body altered so when Starfleet scanned him he wasn’t recognized as Khan? Wouldn’t Starfleet have Khan in their database?

684. Bender Bending Rodriguez - June 2, 2013

Saw it again last night for the 3rd time. Still great. Can’t wait to see it again, and can’t wait to own it.

685. Elias Javalis - June 2, 2013

At 328 mil, its going to pass 500 mil easily…i guess!!

686. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

@683 Same here. Gets better the more you watch it.
*****

Why was STID not released in China? Iron Man 3 made like $111m in China alone.
_____________________
Up to date STID numbers just came out. Seems to me the foreign numbers got a bit better.
Domestic: $181,156,000 55.1%
+ Foreign: $147,400,000 44.9%

687. Reign1701A - June 2, 2013

Star Trek ID now past the $300 million mark. It’s already made more overseas than its predecessor did in its whole run.

http://www.boxoffice.com/latest-news/2013-06-02-global-iron-man-3-keeps-growing-reaches-118-billion

688. Dan - June 2, 2013

Star Trek: ID was released in China this weekend (in fact, it was the first Star Trek film ever released there in theaters, I believe). So it might make a mint there…so the international numbers will more than make up for any dropoff in the US (where it might make $230 mil instead of the $257 mil for ST:09

689. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

@686 Reign1701A
Thanks for the link. So STID is opening in China. Excellent!
******
My most appreciated performances:
1) Spock 2) a tie between Scotty and Bones
3) Kirk 4) Khan
5) Pike 6) Spock prime

690. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@670. Elias Javalis,
“300 mil mark will be broken today! And it hasnt opened in 16 countries yet!”

It currently stands at $328,556 worldwide.

However, it’s opened in the countries most likely to earn the highest returns (though the total above doesn’t reflect China).

As I predicted, STID has dropped to 5th place, basically putting its third week at the same place ST09s post Memorial Day 4th week was. In short, STID lost a free week that ST09 had against Angels & Demons.

STID is now officially $3.5 million behind ST09 and that is likely to widen by another $2-3 million after ST09 gets its Memorial Day Monday numbers factored in tomorrow. The decline is not likely to reverse with The Internship coming next weekend and Man of Steel the next.

So even if its legs are as long as ST09, it’s not likely to make $258 million domestically (much less the $274 million adjusted). Foreign should easily see it cross the $400 million barrier though, but it really needs to finish closer to $500 million to ensure it breaks even at the box office, much less make a profit.

I’m just stunned After Earth beat anything!

691. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

@687 Dan
I don’t see how STID can make less than ST09 domestic. STID is better than ST09. If STID makes less it almost tells me that people are broke.

Anyway, I bought 7 tickets (+concessions) so far, going back today, will buy the Blu-ray. I did my part. Wonderful franchise, so much fun. :-)

692. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

@689 Curious Cadet
Although STID is still playing at the IMAX, the 2nd best screen UltraAVX they replaced STID with After Earth. I checked the reservation tickets and the theatre is practically empty. For ex. the 3PM showing right now at this hour has 6 seats reserved. LOL Sounds like a flop to m, at least in my city.

They would have made more money by keeping STID running. Although I agree it was time to consolidate and move customers to only the IMAX. You need a good crowd to add to the experience.

693. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@687. Dan,
“the international numbers will more than make up for any dropoff in the US (where it might make $230 mil instead of the $257 mil for ST:09″

As I pointed out it needs to make $274 million domestically to offset inflation and earn the same amount as ST09. So it absolutely needs those international numbers to offset how far behind the domestic numbers will likely end up considering its already so far behind. However, the studio take on domestic box office is about half. I believe the studio earns much less than 50% on foreign box office, so that’s a factor too. Add to that a 35% increase on the foreign marketing budget which has to be recouped as well. The good news is that the foreign numbers have already surpassed even the adjusted foreign gross of ST09.

694. Reign1701A - June 2, 2013

@689

How do you figure it needs to finish close to $500 million to make sure it breaks even? Its production budget is listed as $190 million on boxofficemojo, and listed as having a $250 million “total budget” (which I assume includes advertising costs?) on boxoffice.com. Is there something I missed?

695. borgmatrix - June 2, 2013

Bob,
Appreciate what you guys did with the movie. Seen it 3 times, and I’m thinking about seeing it again today. Keep telling myself to hold off till its on disc, which I’ve pre-ordered, but I can’t seem to help myself. There’s a lot to enjoy, think about, and discuss with the movie.

I’m curious as to whether you’ve read Greg Cox’s Khan books, and whether “To Reign in Hell” or any of the others served as inspiration for any aspect of STID.

696. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

@689 Curious Cadet
How come Paramount needs $500m to make a profit? That makes no sense to me.

The budget was $190m. I presume (based on Google searches) Paramount is getting about 75% of all ticket sales. So they need $225m to break even.

STID has already made +$300m. I somehow doubt they spent $75m on posters, TV ads, etc. Also, the movie is not even finished making money yet. And the Blu-ray is not even out. Seems to me this is a huge success.

697. Elias Javalis - June 2, 2013

689@

Thanks Man!

Here’s to a 500 mil breach…! Cheers!!:):):):):):)

698. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@691. Phobos in Montreal,

After Earth came in a close third to Now You See Me ($150K). Star Trek was 5th by over $10 million. I doubt losing 322 theaters out of 3907 accounted for the bulk of that drop.

After Earth is the power of Will Smith, and the reason Star Trek needs to cast an actor of that magnitude to break out of the rut in which it seems to be stuck.

I doubt After Earth will still be in the top 5 next weekend, then again, The Internship comes out next weekend to replace it, and the first horror film of the Summer hits as well. Either way, I don’t believe STID will survive in 5th place following the onslaught of Man of Steel and The End as ST09 did last Summer, so that will be another big drop from which I don’t see it recovering.

699. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

@690
There is almost no inflation. In fact most of the economies of the world are experiencing deflation. Proof of this is I paid the same price for my STID tickets as I paid for ST09 many years ago.

In aggregate there might be a little inflation for the studios but roughly the purchasing power of various currencies remains the same as in 2009. Most of the desires for huge gross sales in the name of “inflation” is usually just “expectations” of growth (or greed).

700. William Bradley - June 2, 2013

You can correct this error by checking this site.

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

On average, what cost $10 in 2009 costs $10.84 today.

And of course movie ticket prices have gone up.

698. Phobos in Montreal – June 2, 2013

701. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@693. Reign1701A / Phobos in Montreal,
“a $250 million “total budget” (which I assume includes advertising costs?) on boxoffice.com.”/”Paramount is getting about 75% of all ticket sales.”,”I somehow doubt they spent $75m on posters, TV ads, etc.”

First, I didn’t realize the total budget was posted anywhere. Thanks for bringing that to my attention Reign. I’m guessing then that the reported marketing budget is $60 million then, which is pretty standard budget, and at least what they spent on ST09 — believe it or not Phobos. However, they also increased the foreign marketing by 35% so I wonder if that marketing budget includes the international marketing budget as well? Many Summer tent-poles can spend as much as $100 million worldwide to market a film.

As for the box office take, the standard rule is that over the entire run of the film, the studio takes only half the domestic box office. Internationally, the theater owners make more. It’s a far more complicated system and US distributors have nowhere near the same influence as they do domestically. Therefore, they will not even make half the international box office. In any event considering how complicated box office revenue is, the general rule of thumb is that a movie must make twice its budget to recoup.

Also, $190 million is an estimate, and generally production budgets are actually higher than reported for various reasons. But assuming $190 is accurate, then at a minimum it must make $380 to recoup just the budget, and assuming a minimal $60 million marketing budget an additional $120 million to recoup those costs. So that’s at a minimum $500 million to recoup the film from box office alone.

And no Phobos, I did not forget about home video, PPV and broadcast income. That’s why this film is not going to lose money, regardless of what the box office does at this point. The same was true for ST09.

However, it is substantially underperforming ST09 domestically considering inflation and 3D ticket prices, and that is not going to change, so considering the extra money spent, the foreign income is going to have to drive it up past $400 million to make it as successful as ST09 for the studio.

702. Aurore - June 2, 2013

“After Earth is the power of Will Smith, and the reason Star Trek needs to cast an actor of that magnitude to break out of the rut in which it seems to be stuck.”
________

An actor of that magnitude will do nothing for Star Trek unless there is a very good story to be told, though.

I agree with a previous comment “…but a B.O. hit can’t solely count on diehard fans of stars …”

703. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

@700 William
Paramount’s $250m ‘all included’ budget is priced in 2011-2012-2013 dollars, it includes past inflation.

The only deviation would be if you can show that 2011 dollars were much stronger than 2013 dollars. That is just not the case. At least it is not significant.

Presuming a take of 75%, Paramount has earned $246m already.
By Monday morning STID will have broken even, including all costs. imo.

704. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

Wait, I’m all mixed up now. LOL First I thought we were talking about how the budget of $190m was truly much higher than $190m because of inflation since the time the movie was actually made. Now I realize we’re talking about how STID’s gross must be much higher than the gross of ST09 because of… what? a high CPI, a weaker US dollar, or inflation in Paramount’s own costs (wages, filming equipment).

Anyway, whatever. The numbers overall seem very good for STID.

705. boborci - June 2, 2013

652. hmmm… Oswalds house for sale? u know i m interested!

706. boborci - June 2, 2013

657 OZ

duly noted!

707. Mad Mann - June 2, 2013

I figured it would need to bring in at least $440 mill worldwide to break even. But DVDs, digital downloads, etc., could bring the profit. Too bad there is very little merchandise out there, cuz that would have helped.

708. boborci - June 2, 2013

695. borgmatrix

yeah, read those books and was a big fan!

709. dmduncan - June 2, 2013

Re: transwarp beaming:

It was confiscated from Scotty by Starfleet and destroyed in the Section 31 blow-up. Now, only Khan and Spock-Prime have it in their heads because Scotty won’t be recreating it for quite a long time. Perhaps sooner than he created it in the prime universe, because in the AU he knows to think “of space as the thing that was moving.” But he’s still a distance away from recreating the entire equation, and Spock Prime won’t interfere and divulge that secret a second time.

710. dmduncan - June 2, 2013

Ergo: No more transwarp beaming for the foreseeable future.

711. Phaser On Stun - June 2, 2013

From Hollywood Reporter

J.J. Abrams’ Star Trek sequel ended the weekend with a domestic total of $181.2 million. Overseas, Into Darkness took in $37.6 million as it opened in China and South Korea for an international total of $147.4 million and worldwide cume of $328.6 million. The sci-fi adventure opened in China to a strong $25 million.

712. Phaser On Stun - June 2, 2013

Additionally, China’s total gross for ST2009 was 8.5million as reported by Box Office Mojo.

FOREIGN TOTAL ST2009 $127,950,427
China ST2009 $8,556,951

713. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@702. Aurore,
“An actor of that magnitude will do nothing for Star Trek unless there is a very good story to be told, though. I agree with a previous comment “…but a B.O. hit can’t solely count on diehard fans of stars …”

What I should have perhaps prefaced that statement with is “all things being equal”. And as far as I’m concerned ST09 and STID are if nothing else equal as far as general audiences are concerned.

Cumberbatch seems to be making a difference for the international markets, that or Paramount’s 35% increase of the international marketing budget paid off, or both (and arguably that was their goal for this film). Certainly the success of ST09 on international home video can’t be discounted as a tool to excite people to see the sequel where they knew nothing before the original. But Cumberbatch doesn’t seem to be doing much more for the domestic box office than Eric Bana did. This is where a much bigger star name would have arguably made the difference — I would bet at least $100 million worth.

And I agree whole-heartedly a film can’t rely on diehard fans of stars, which I think TFF and Nemesis proved even Star Trek fans couldn’t be counted on to see a movie merely because of who was in it.

But it seems this time that Paramount was counting solely on the brand name “Star Trek” as all they needed, combined with the anticipated star power of Zoe & Chris, and Cumberbatch for international audiences, to build on the success of ST09. And it appears they needed more.

714. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

@712 Phaser

ST09 China = $8.5m
ST09 Foreign = $127.9m

So.. just based on 1 weekend of Chinese tickets:
STID China = $25m
STID Foreign = $376m

STID might turn out to be a big success after all. A lot of discretionary income is in China now.

715. Lemingsworth Bint - June 2, 2013

The exhibition industry insists the price of a movie ticket has not gone up since 2008. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but they are really quite insistent.

716. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

I am projecting a total worldwide gross for STID at $560m.
Everyone place their bets. :-D

717. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@707. Mad Mann,
“I figured it would need to bring in at least $440 mill worldwide to break even. But DVDs, digital downloads, etc., could bring the profit. Too bad there is very little merchandise out there, cuz that would have helped.”

Yeah, if you assume ST09 broke even at $385.6 million, then $440 million seems like a pretty good estimate accounting for higher budget and box office inflation. I still think DVDs, PPV & Broadcast still account for a percentage of marketing cost recoupment even then, but the bulk of it is likely profit.

And you’re right, such a waste on the merchandising front. The Narada was a visually stunning ship, but as a practical matter would have made for a horrible toy. But can you imagine kids getting their hands on the Vengeance? I can imagine some cool make-believe with that ship and the Enterprise. And unlike Nero, Khan makes for a very cool action figure, given his superior strength. Along with the Klingons. Then there’s the new Klingon BOP, and Mudd’s ship. A real waste this stuff wasn’t in stores.

718. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@716. Phobos in Montreal,
“I am projecting a total worldwide gross for STID at $560m.”

I hope you’re right, but considering where STID is domestically and what’s coming up the rest of the Summer, I don’t see the domestic BO passing $230 if that. Which means the foreign take will have to be $330 (that’s almost 3x the ST09 take), and considering most of the major international markets have already made the majority of their BO, that’s a pretty tall order.

719. William Bradley - June 2, 2013

… 703. Sorry, Phobos, my point was simply to refute your claim that there has been no inflation since 2009.

In reality, STID will have to gross $21.6 million more than ST09 domestically to do as well as the first film.

Now you are off and running on something else. Assuming, I might add, quite a few things you don’t know.

703. Phobos in Montreal – June 2, 2013

720. TREKWEBMASTER - June 2, 2013

I just viewed the 3D version of Star Trek Into Darkness last night and found it was a very great Star Trek movie. I was very impressed, down to the 5-star braid on Marcus’ shoulder. I wonder if Spock will carry Pike’s “Katra” which brings about the events in the 3rd movie; and will Spock junior do the same for Spock Prime? Time will tell…

I loved the guts and glory of the inner-workings of Section 31 / Daystrom Institute and am glad that S31 existed back before we knew it would. This is an interesting tie-in. Great work on the engine room. I felt as if I actually might get dirty and oil-stained if I worked in the engine room. The “Big E” actually felt very big in the movie. Different, but nice. Excellently done, J.J. and company. Kudos!

I love how Kirk (Chris Pine) performed the “heroics and bravery” scene to save his crew, or his “family.” Every scene was well-played and scripted. Great “synergy” here overlaying aspects of both universes to play against the other.

There were no awkward moments and the symbolism of “Into Darkness” becomes relevant. But we see, there is also “light” at the end of the “tunnel.” I suspected Spock would have killed the evil villain if not stopped. The brings to mind the books of over a quarter of a century ago titled: “I am not Spock,” and “Spock must die!” If you can grasp the inference. It’s logical, Admiral.

From TOS, to TMP, and from TNG to STM, I think each successor owes its success from the previous ancestor; and I think that there’s a universe of successes and plenty-room for all of them then, now, and in the future. Very well-done. I am very impressed. And you know what this means, the 3rd movie will have to “out-do” the 1st and 2nd. So that leaves very-big shoes to fill, but I think it can be done.

May Star Trek “live” long and prosper.

Peace and long life.

~Trek

721. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

@718 Curious Cadet.
You might be right. My $560m might be skewed by my fan bias.

Since STID is on day 20, Man of Steel might bring customers in who would not have gone for STID but once there might consider STID as their next movie.

722. Elias Javalis - June 2, 2013

716, Uhm, I ll say 534 million!:)

723. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@709. dmduncan:
“Re: transwarp beaming: It was confiscated from Scotty by Starfleet and destroyed in the Section 31 blow-up.”

Good try, but as I have been reminded, it is unlikely Section 31 only stores their information on one server, without a backup to be found anywhere else in the galaxy.

724. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@721. Phobos in Montreal,
“Man of Steel might bring customers in who would not have gone for STID but once there might consider STID as their next movie.”

Fair enough … that did not happen with “Transformers” in 2009, but anything’s possible. Arguably ST09 benefitted by a Summer of boxoffice duds, but if your theory plays out then STID will be resurrected like it was given an injection of Khan’s magic blood and end up beating ST09. ;-)

725. dmduncan - June 2, 2013

@723:

The backups were on the premises. They failed to anticipate a threat from the inside, the sort of savagery lacking in their own times which they had awakened Mr. Harrison for to begin with. The equation was a casualty of a general 23rd century malaise that even Section 31 could not be completely free of.

Who knows what else they lost that day.

Eh, lesson learned.

726. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

@724
Khan’s “magic blood” is not far fetched. The Borg use nanoprobes to regenerate damaged cells.
In 2013, science already uses stem cells to renegerate dead tissue and organs.

727. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@725. dmduncan,
“The backups were on the premises.”

Well, if this is the crutch Orci wants to use to negate that particular plot device, then who am I to deny it?

Until then, I would suggest Section 31 is not that oblivious. After all, a fire, accident, or alien attack (such as Nero) could wipe them out. If nothing else the existence of Memory Alpha suggests even Section 31 would have thought about and had a need for remote servers, even as a mirror for distant agents to access data directly. I would think such a server would be present at the secret ship yard at Jupiter to access many of the files they would need to build the ship, including the transwarp transporter specs. How do you know the Vengeance didn’t have transwarp transporters? Doesn’t really make sense it wouldn’t have one. And how do you know there was only one portable transwarp transporter unit? And finally, Khan likely knows the formula too.

728. Weekend Box Office Results - June 2, 2013

“Star Trek: Into Darkness” claws its way to $182.2 million

1. Fast & Furious 6 ($34.5 million) CUM: $170.4 million

2. Now You See Me ($28 million)*

3. After Earth ($27 million)*

4. Epic ($16.4 million) – CUM: $65.2 million

5. Star Trek Into Darkness ($16.4 million) – CUM: $182.2 million

6. The Hangover Part III ($15.9 million) CUM: $88 million

7. Iron Man 3 ($8 million) CUM: $385 million

8. The Great Gatsby ($6.2 million) CUM: $122 million

9. Yeh Jawanni Hai Deewani ($1.6 million)*

10. Mud ($1.2 million)*

729. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@726. Phobos in Montreal,
“Khan’s “magic blood” is not far fetched.”

I didn’t make that argument. I actually don’t have a big problem with the magic blood, other than it works on both a human and a tribble, considering we don’t know exactly what was wrong with both, nor what else was done to them. But they do have to set some limits on it in order to ever have anybody die again.

Nevertheless, your argument works against you. If we have such technology today, how can we not have even more amazing technology in 300 years? Why do we need blood engineered in the late 20th century? Technology to invent nanoprobes didn’t exist in the late 20th Century either, and theoretically because of the Enterprise episode where they encounter the Borg, those nanoprobes should already be part of Starfleet’s technology, and thus no need for magic blood from the 20th century to save Kirk.

One aspect of this that is overlooked so far is that Section 31 could have done additional experiments on Khan and further genetically modified his blood, making him not only stronger than he was in TOS, but also given him greater recuperative powers (and magic blood). Especially if you want to believe they altered his appearance in the first place. Heck, his appearance could have been altered as a side-effect of this testing and modification, in the same way the Klingons were altered in the Enterprise episode. That would make more sense to me than if they were just trying to conceal his true identity.

730. Red Dead Ryan - June 2, 2013

I figure for the magic blood to work, the person that is in need of being brought back to life can’t be dead for too long, nor suffer extreme organ damage.

Kirk would have suffered severe organ damage, but possibly not enough to prevent them from being repaired. That, and the fact he wasn’t dead very long before McCoy brought him back to life.

731. ElrondL - June 2, 2013

Just saw the box office roundup in Hollywood Reporter — really glad to see that international box office is rocking! STID opened in China with $25 million … Intl. weekend total was $37+ mil; the worldwide total is now over $328 mil.

732. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 2, 2013

#720 – “I wonder if Spock will carry Pike’s “Katra” which brings about the events in the 3rd movie; and will Spock junior do the same for Spock Prime?”

Gosh, I am a bit worried that alt.Spock’s head might “explode” with all these katras that he might be carrying. Actually, that was my idea that when it came time for Spock prime to pass away, that he transfer his katra to his younger counterpart. Kinda makes sense in a way, although it may prove to be more of a hindrance. Tricky one this…

Scotty found part of the portable transwarp beaming device. He was already working on the formula when prime Spock gave him the correct calculations (from his own older prime universe counterpart). When he saw the calculations this nuScotty immediately understood what he had been missing and why his own formulations were not working. So – who knows, when it comes to there being some form of (primitive) transwarp beaming technology in the future?….

733. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 2, 2013

#730 – Have I not been saying that all along?

734. Charles Trotter - June 2, 2013

676. Curious Cadet

“Out of curiosity, while your own explanation is certainly possible, in as much as Orci’s ‘shape shifter’ explanation is too, why would they disguise one superman to look like another? I suppose it lowers the odds someone might recognize Khan who was the leader, but it doesn’t eliminate the possibility of recognizing one of his henchmen, any more than lowly Nazi concentration camp guards escaped prosecution because they weren’t as well known as Hitler.”

Well, like I said, that’s just my own fan-created explanation; it’s not perfect. That said, “records of that period are fragmentary” (to quote Spock in “Space Seed”), I figured there probably isn’t a lot of data on Khan’s followers. As such, making him look like one of his lesser-known (or unknown) devotees would suffice.

My point, though, was not to provide an explanation but to show how one could be provided, in canon (for those who accept the comics as such). Inventing a reason is fairly simple and I’m sure Bob and the gang will come up with one (hopefully something better than my own).

735. Red Dead Ryan - June 2, 2013

#733.

Yeah, you probably have, but there’s been so many posts I really can’t remember for sure.

736. dmduncan - June 2, 2013

727. Curious Cadet – June 2, 2013

Yes, you would think all those things.

I once asked a crew chief why the helicopter was “down.” He told me they ran out of a part, and that the particular part they needed was being made by ONE old machinist in his GARAGE somewhere in…like…Ohio.

He wasn’t joking.

So you would think that a modern military like ours would never have such a problem, that they can just oursource production of that part to anyone—but what you would think and how things really turn out to be don’t always mesh.

Which is why a lot of alleged “plot-hole” criticisms are really from the standpoint of what one thinks would really happen in the world, when in fact reality itself can be accused of having plot-holes out the wazoo because things and happenings YOU would never include in your model of reality happen anyway.

You’re walking down the street when hundred of birds begin falling out of the sky without explanation. And you don’t ever get one.

PLOT HOLE!

Who the hell is writing this stuff up there?

737. Miketen - June 2, 2013

I still have one question and it’s from the first movie. What was going on in the Laurentian system that kept the fleet from trying to protect Earth even after Nero destroys Vulcan and is on his way to Earth? Star Trek Wiki is saying the comic Star Trek: Nero is saying they were helping the Klingons after Nero’s attack but after Vulcan is destroyed at least some of those ships should have headed back to Earth.

738. Red Dead Ryan - June 2, 2013

#736.

“Who the hell is writing this stuff up there?”

The holodeck/Kobyashi Maru programmer with too much time on his hands.

:-)

739. Charles Trotter - June 2, 2013

730. Red Dead Ryan

That’s what I was figuring, as well. Basically, as long as the body and its organs are fairly intact, they can be revived by Khan’s blood. The tribble died of natural causes (old age) and Kirk died of radiation poisoning; neither affliction would be beyond the regenerative capabilities of Khan’s platelets.

Now, if it were something like freezing in the vacuum of space or a phaser blast to the chest or having your head crushed by a genetically-engineered superhuman — well, then, you’re S.O.L.

740. dmduncan - June 2, 2013

oursource=outsource

but you already knew that.

741. dmduncan - June 2, 2013

738. Red Dead Ryan – June 2, 2013

I suspect that’s not far from the truth.

742. KenT - June 2, 2013

I would really like to see the USS Enterprise be the true flagship it should be…most of the movies have used her as a punching bag instead of an elite capable ship crewed by the highest talented team in Starfleet.

The TV shows kept the Enterprise elite but most of the movies have had her outclassed or outdated. I understand and appreciate that the story is about the team but it would be nice to see the Enterprise back as the most advanced ship in the fleet and a real match for the opposition.

743. Bucky - June 2, 2013

As for international numbers, Star Trek Into Darkness had a great China opening, the flick STILL has to open in Japan, Brazil, France, Italy and Spain and it’s already passed all the international cash that the last JJ Trekflick made! Check out a few paragraphs down at The Wrap for deets.

http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/hangover-iii-laughs-way-82m-overseas-box-office-94886

Anyway, I’m guessing it’s international numbers will push it into 500 mil territory, and domestically it probably won’t do as much as the last one did, maybe about 50 mil under but it’s gonna crack 200 mil soon. But overall, 500 million dollars is pretty freakin’ great, compared to how awful something like After Earth is going to end up with.

744. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@734. Charles Trotter,
“Inventing a reason is fairly simple and I’m sure Bob and the gang will come up with one”

The hard part will be coming up with one that will please everyone.

But to the extent they decide to explain it at all, I’ve come up with the only explanation that solves a number of problems.

Khan was born as a product of Selective Breeding in the 1950s. In the 1980s as new technology became available he further refined himself through genetic engineering in pursuit of perfection (thus satisfying Khan’s statement in TWOK). This is the Khan we met in Space Seed, whom Kirk was able to beat. When Marcus found him, the Section 31 scientists began a battery of tests on him, and found similar properties in his blood as McCoy did on Space Seed. From this they began a series of experiments genetically modifying his DNA using advanced 23rd Century technology which gave his blood miraculous healing properties they suspected from the tests. It also had the side effect of increasing his strength and dramatically altering his appearance, in much the same way that the Klingons appearance in Enterprise was altered by experimenting with augment DNA (altering bone structure and complexion). This is how Khan came to learn his blood could revive dying tissue, as well as being stronger than he appeared in Space Seed. Marcus used the unintentional appearance change to expand Khan’s usefulness, and put him to work as John Harrison.

745. Charles Trotter - June 2, 2013

743. Curious Cadet

“Khan was born as a product of Selective Breeding in the 1950s. In the 1980s as new technology became available he further refined himself through genetic engineering in pursuit of perfection (thus satisfying Khan’s statement in TWOK). This is the Khan we met in Space Seed, whom Kirk was able to beat. When Marcus found him, the Section 31 scientists began a battery of tests on him, and found similar properties in his blood as McCoy did on Space Seed. From this they began a series of experiments genetically modifying his DNA using advanced 23rd Century technology which gave his blood miraculous healing properties they suspected from the tests. It also had the side effect of increasing his strength and dramatically altering his appearance, in much the same way that the Klingons appearance in Enterprise was altered by experimenting with augment DNA (altering bone structure and complexion). This is how Khan came to learn his blood could revive dying tissue, as well as being stronger than he appeared in Space Seed. Marcus used the unintentional appearance change to expand Khan’s usefulness, and put him to work as John Harrison.”

Not bad! :) You forgot to explain the change in accent, though. Maybe after his appearance was changed, they also altered his voice/dialect to match his new identity. Or maybe he just adopted the accent for his cover and just stuck with it. That would be the simplest explanation, I guess.

746. Craiger - June 2, 2013

This is from the Star Trek Wiki site.

Orci also said that Khan “could” have undergone cosmetic surgery as part of his cover and that the theory was an “interesting idea.” Also, in answer to a question about Khan’s change in features, he said “uhm…. one of his abilities is that he is a shape shifter?”

747. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@744 Charles Trotter,

His accent is about the only thing I’m willing to overlook, if only because Montalban spoke with a thick Spanish accent regardless of the role he played. I attribute this to the same world in which the captain of a Russian sub in Hunt for Red October spoke with a Scottish accent. And a British accent makes a lot more sense for a Northern Indian than a Spanish one, so this aspect is likely an ‘improvement’.

Otherwise, sure. Khan ‘played along’ to convince Marcus he could be trusted on his own recognizance — he played Marcus letting him think he was winning him over so he would let his guard down with respect to the 72 cryo pods allowing Khan to locate and rescue them. Of course, once he drops the act and tells Kirk everything, his original Spanish accent should have returned.

I think the reality is that Abrams just thought Cumberbatch sounded cooler speaking with a British accent, likewise for Eve, so he just didn’t care if it didn’t make any sense (not that he would have had him do a Spanish accent). In fact, I wonder if they moved the bombing to London after they cast Cumberbatch, or if that had been planned all along.

748. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@746. Craiger,
“Orci also said that Khan “could” have undergone cosmetic surgery as part of his cover and that the theory was an “interesting idea.”

That was also in answer to a question, both from these forums. He only said “interesting idea. Could be.” in response.

See #544 & #1090:

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/15/sticky-star-trek-into-darkness-arrives-in-north-america-and-most-of-the-world-open-thread/

749. William Bradley - June 2, 2013

Ah, the vast and ongoing effort to retcon Ret-Khan … :)

750. TrekMadeMeFat - June 2, 2013

More like one-man effort.

751. William Bradley - June 2, 2013

Curious Cadet, Craiger, Charles Trotter et al et al et al are all one man?

Clearly, not possible.

752. Tom - June 2, 2013

Starting to like the idea of the Talosians in the alternate timeline. Many possibilities. Talos 4 can be visited byy the klingons, Borg or even Khan to be used as a weapon

753. Mad Mann - June 2, 2013

I like the idea of the Talosians, but please no Borg!! Leave the Borg, Dominion, Ferengi, etc., out of the new movies!!

It would not make sense to have the Borg, since they are still in the Delta Quadrant in this time. The change to the timeline by Nero should have absolutely no bearing on the Borg.

754. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

How did Khan know that the warp core was sabotaged?
A deduction?

755. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

Few things new I noticed tonight :
- Scotty’s flyby of the construction yard looked like a Borg cube. Intentional?
- Spock’s idea to detonate torpedoes is what Harry Kim did against the Borg scout in Voyager.
- The radiation bounced off Kirk’s suit as bolts.
- Kirk awakening from death has sound of his father from the first movie talking?

756. srprzbearattack - June 2, 2013

boborci, STID was quite awesome, was hoping for a little more of Khan but very good.

My wishes for the next one…

- More Klingons
- No more big dark ships that severely outclass/outgun the Enterprise
- “He’s dead, Jim!”
- A classic Spock/McCoy argument

757. Curious Cadet - June 2, 2013

@753. Mad Mann,
“The change to the timeline by Nero should have absolutely no bearing on the Borg.”

In the IDW Countdown comic, which is canon (until it’s contradicted by film), it is explained that the Narada is retrofitted with salvaged and reverse engineered Borg technology, which in part allows it to heal itself through nanoprobes. The Narada looks the way it does because the Borg tech transformed it. In the IDW Nero comic, the Borg technology locates and communicates with V’Ger which allows Nero to calculate Prime Spock’s exact time of Arrival.

Therefore, it’s entirely possible the Narada made the Borg aware of its presence, and they have been coming since 2233 (though the use of transwarp conduits could allow them to arrive at any time).

A very plausible scenario would be the Enterprise first encounters the Borg while in deep space on its 5 year mission. I can see Abrams thinking he could do the Borg really cool.

758. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

To Mr. boborci,

In ST 3 please include straight phasers (not pulses) and photon torpedoes from the Enterprise.

759. Phobos in Montreal - June 2, 2013

I see IronMan 3 is in the D-BOX theatre. Iv’e never tried D-BOX before. I wonder if STID will be in D-BOX after IM3 is out.

760. Noropolis - June 2, 2013

Waiting for Star Trek 3.

761. Chain of Command - June 2, 2013

@742

Agreed! The Enterprise is a character. Just as much as Kirk, Spock, et al. Hopefully I’m not getting off topic, but I always thought the movie that was the worst at protraying the Enterprise was Star Trek III. They took the noble, majestic vessel, slapped 5 times more battle damage on it than Khan inflicted (He never hit the Starboard side or the engines!) and made it into a flying junk heap. TMP and Star Trek II were the only movies that ever depicted what a tough ship she really was.

Yes, I would like to see the ship get more attention and be treated much more like the “hero” it is.

762. Matthew Brannon - June 2, 2013

Noticed this a while ago…anyone else notice the music during the Into Darkness preview in The Hobbit was completely different during the Harewood hospital visit in the beginning? The theatrical release from last month featured “London Calling” as it’s heard in the official soundtrack, but the music in the 10-minute preview has a completely different theme featuring an oboe and acoustic guitar song that’s equally as morose but is much more reminiscent of the theme from Hook.

763. chrisfawkes.com - June 2, 2013

The take for Star Trek 09 world wide was $385,680,446

The take for Into Darkness on the third weekend is $328,556,000

A couple of non trekkie friends went and saw it. The first girl absolutely hated it, thought it was boring.

The second girl said that it was very insular. She could see that if you were a trekkie you would understand a lot of the references a lot more.

I loved the film but I can totally see that. It went right back to fan boy pandering so many times that the average viewer feels left out of the conversation.

Some nods are fine but lets hope that the next installment will be more inclusive of a non trekkie audience.

Take time to build the background to your characters rather than hope enough is implied based on old Star Trek episodes.

764. Mike - June 2, 2013

761

Tough ship in ST 6 TUC. “She’ taking quite a Wallop”

765. Photon70 - June 3, 2013

@ 763. chrisfawkes.com – June 2, 2013

Thanks for those figures!

Hopefully will cross $386 million by this time next week!

As a comparison of 3 international markets with mature fandom:

UK: Total ST09 take $35.4 million. STiD after 4 weekends $35.2 million.

Germany: Total ST09 take $12.8 million. STiD after 4 weekends $18.5 million.

Australia: Total ST09 take $12.7 million. STiD after 4 weekends $14.2 million.

http://www.boxoffice.com/latest-news/2013-06-02-global-iron-man-3-keeps-growing-reaches-118-billion

766. Alex - June 3, 2013

Ok, some questions:

- If the torpedoes have had the fuel replaced with Khan’s chums, how exactly are they supposed to fire and reach the Klingon home world?

- The film ends with Kirk giving a lame speech and the Enterprise going on its five year mission. So no one is worried about Section 31, a parasitic illegal organisation eating at the heart of the Federation?

And a final comment… ID was just another standard Abrams Alias/Mission Impossible plot about internal conspiracies. Please give us some wonder and exploration next time.

767. Disinvited - June 3, 2013

#729. Curious Cadet – June 2, 2013 745., Charles Trotter – June 2, 2013

Hmm..CC by retconing TWOK, I think you’ve come up with STID’s out for the changes in Khan.

But first, the accent. In SPACE SEED Khan spoke accented English which Kirk and crew all knew how to speak thanks to their excellent 23rd century education system. Thanks to his Section 31 supplied 23rd century education, Khan now speaks flawless Federation Intergalactic.

CC by introducing that Khan already genetically engineered himself you really provide Bad Robot with an out for all the changes in their Khan. If after his Section 31 graduate studies he decided to upgrade himself genetically to all the best genes known in that century … well it could be used to explain much.

768. Disinvited - June 3, 2013

#766. Alex – June 3, 2013

In TWOK the launching of Spock’s gutless, save for that of Spock himself, photon torpedo coffin proves that any empty fuel tank torpedo can be launched and by inertia alone alight on a planet’s surface.

769. Phobos in Montreal - June 3, 2013

@766
They are long range torpedoes for which the fuel was removed. They have enough energy for short range blasts. But I get your point because I myself asked that very question during the movie.

770. William Bradley - June 3, 2013

The preview was months before the movie came out, so the music, which I don’t remember, was probably temp track material.

It’s not at all unusual for the actual score of a film to be ready not long before the final movie itself is.

>762. Matthew Brannon – June 2, 2013
Noticed this a while ago…anyone else notice the music during the Into Darkness preview in The Hobbit was completely different during the Harewood hospital visit in the beginning? The theatrical release from last month featured “London Calling” as it’s heard in the official soundtrack, but the music in the 10-minute preview has a completely different theme featuring an oboe and acoustic guitar song that’s equally as morose but is much more reminiscent of the theme from Hook.

771. Spock's Bangs - June 3, 2013

Saw it again yesterday, noticing a lot more of the themes playing out throughout the film, I think the first time I was thinking too much about it all to just sit back and let it unfold. Whatever the reason, I really enjoyed it even more. One thing keeps bugging me. Why all the cranes and pulleys lifting big objects? What happened to anti-grav technology? In fact, we see it at work in the hospital. Just a little nit- pick to start the week. lol. Oh yeah, happy crowd, I think this movie is going to last the summer.

772. Josh C. - June 3, 2013

Looks like Into Darkness passed $180 million this weekend. Both movies have now had their Memorial Day weekend and 2009 looks like it’ll be somewhere around $15 million ahead of Into Darkness day to day.

However, Into Darkness should definitely break $200 million – perhaps sometime next week (I doubt it will do it next weekend) and it’s just a matter of how much over $200 million it gets. Also, it’s already passed 2009′s international total.

Yes, I know there is all the stuff about inflation and 3D ticket prices, but it does look like domestic+international box office will ultimately beat 2009.

That should definitely be enough for a 3rd movie in 2016

773. Josh C. - June 3, 2013

766, 769 –

Carol didn’t say the fuel had been removed, she said that the fuel cell had been retrofitted to fill a smaller area. Apparently Khan made some improvements to the torpedoes that he didn’t pass along to Admiral Marcus…

I wouldn’t say no one is worried. I would just say that they decided not to spend time in the film to dwell on it. Kirk’s speech was meant to show that he thinks the Federation shouldn’t go in that direction. (also: read the comics)

774. dmduncan - June 3, 2013

ALL the explanations for Khan’s difference in appearance seem an exercise in self torture to me. They are fundamentally unsatisfying.

Save one.

Bob felt uncomfortable contributing to a climate of demonization.

Everything else is meaningless to me, and I believe it was wise to not compound the mistake by providing some in-movie explanation for the difference in look.

To do Khan best, he should have been properly cast, and if at the very least Molla had been cast in the role instead of Cumberbatch, neither filmmakers nor fans would be wriggling on the end of a sharp stick trying to make sense of it all.

Oh they still would have gotten criticism for not casting a REAL North Indian in the year 2013, but by at least following Montalban with another Latino playing a North Indian they could plead with us for understanding that the inertia of the role’s history had put them into a trance, and that’s why they cast another Latino.

At least Molla could have passed for North Indian better than Cumberbatch, and the difference in race would not be so in-your-face apparent..

775. Patrick - June 3, 2013

I’m sure this is probably a stupid question because I haven’t seen anyone else bring it up, but…

Kirk decides to warp past Marcus and head for Earth. Marcus pursues and blasts Kirk out of the warpstream, then drops out behind him.

Next thing I know, Spock detonates the torpedoes and the Vengeance begins to crash…to earth? When did they make it there?

Also, has anybody confirmed Vengeance’s ability to beam through shields (Carol & torpedoes)?

776. Curious Cadet - June 3, 2013

772. Josh C.,
“Both movies have now had their Memorial Day weekend and 2009 looks like it’ll be somewhere around $15 million ahead of Into Darkness day to day….Yes, I know there is all the stuff about inflation and 3D ticket prices, but it does look like domestic+international box office will ultimately beat 2009.”

Well almost, today is going to widen the gap a few million more. While technically not part of the weekend, Monday is arguably the most important day in the Memorial Day weekend. So tomorrow will paint the true picture.

And 3D prices and inflation have nothing to do with it at this point. STID will definitely pass ST09 thanks to a substantially improved foreign market. The fact that Japan, Spain, France and Italy have not yet opened yet speaks really well of the foreign potential. Whatever the reason, Paramount’s marketing, or enthusiasm over the ST09 home video, the international market should balance out the way the studio would like it to and prove Trek is a true international franchise, giving them a good place to build from.

The 3D and inflation are important to the domestic numbers only IMO. The fact STID is trailing behind ST09 is a serious issue that does need to be investigated. But thankfully, the apparent solid foreign numbers give Trek another chance to work on it.

777. Aurore - June 3, 2013

“ALL the explanations for Khan’s difference in appearance seem an exercise in self torture to me. They are fundamentally unsatisfying.”
___________

Agreed: the explanations are unsatisfying to me, too.
( Though I enjoy following the discussion).

“Bob felt uncomfortable contributing to a climate of demonization.”

I personally was not convinced by any of his answers on the question…

You make valid points concerning Jordi Mollà, but, I still think they should not have used Khan at all rather than changing his ethnicity.

But, there is nothing I can do about what has occurred, now….

It is what it is…

778. Josh C. - June 3, 2013

774 dmduncan -

I think there are two questions here:

1) why did the filmmakers AS FILMMAKERS decide to cast Cumberbatch as Khan, and

2) How do they explain IN CANON the different of looks, beyond the forgivable differences brought upon by having a different actor play the role to begin with

779. Russell Meyers - June 3, 2013

774 dmduncan – I agree. BC is good, but not the right choice for Khan. Khan in Name Only.

I have problems with the way the character is written as well, as super soldier, not a Prince? No metion of his former power over much of the Earth?

780. Josh C. - June 3, 2013

776 Curious Cadet –

well yeah, I know that. The gap is about $10 million now so I threw in the extra $5 million to account for today.

I agree they need to look into why STID didn’t do as well domestically, but I think it’s not quite doing as bad as people feared when it opened. There were people saying it might not make $200 million in the US. Well, I think it’s pretty clear it will make that now.

781. Curious Cadet - June 3, 2013

@778. Josh C.
“774 dmduncan – I think there are two questions here:
1) why did the filmmakers AS FILMMAKERS decide to cast Cumberbatch as Khan, and 2) How do they explain IN CANON the different of looks”

That’s what we’ve been saying all along. And unless they are lying, the filmmakers seem to be fairly transparent as to why they cast Cumberbatch. And I think they’ve been fairly clear about the canon question too — they are not going to explain it.

———————
@780. Josh C.,
“There were people saying it might not make $200 million in the US. Well, I think it’s pretty clear it will make that now.”

That’s true. However, considering the budget was $40 million higher, and they seemed to spend more on marketing in general, the reality is ST09 made about $270 million in adjusted box office, before 3D is even factored into it. That’s a sizeable loss even if STID closes well over $200 million. While it’s not doing badly for an average film it’s a problem in context for audience retention, and I think also raises some interesting questions about the value of 3D.

782. Phil - June 3, 2013

@780. The one stat that keeps popping up there is that the under 24 ticket, which showed up in droves last time, was AWOL for this movie. Bad Robot seemed to assume they would turn out for a movie a bit heavy on fan service, which was a miscalculation. On the other hand, the foreign box office seems to be up considerably, which will probably be enough to ensure another one gets made. Bad Robot will need to walk a fine line on this, to appeal to a international audience. At least domestically, Trek’s Greatest Hits isn’t going to get the job done.

783. Curious Cadet - June 3, 2013

@777. Aurore,
“Agreed: the explanations are unsatisfying to me, too. ( Though I enjoy following the discussion).”

Is any retcon ever truly satisfying? Oh yes, some address more problems than others, but in the end, it rarely solves the root of the problem.

As you say, it is what it is — no use crying over spilt milk. I’m contributing to the retcon discussion because it’s a distraction, and it’s kind of fun, like a puzzle — in the same way trying to figure out who Harrison was (and the answer being equally unsatisfying). In the end I have to step outside of the ‘fan zone’ and look at it from a practical matter — as far as the filmmakers are concerned, they intend Prime Spock sees Cumberbatch as the exact same character as Montalban. No answer Orci ever gives will satisfy everyone, if anyone. The fact they have known this secret for over 18 months, and did not have a canon explanation ready knowing how fans would receive this, is perhaps the most telling factor of their position.

But I do have to wonder what happens if Abrams continues to ignore and dimish canon and strip it’s importance out of the franchise. Arguably that canon was instrumental to Trek’s success and is a part of what bonds the fans together.

On the other hand, I too am not fully convinced about Orci’s answers, and you have certainly provided a lot of interesting quotes about the filmmakers rationale — thank you for being so thorough. And that suggests, there may be a calculated reason we are not getting an explanation for Khan’s appearance. I of course have not ruled out the possibility Harrison was lying about being Khan, which is the only satisfying explanation for me, though I admit it’s not very likely. Still, I feel there’s something else we’re not being told … or is that merely the foolish hope that springs from the well of disappointment bubbling deep within us?

784. Curious Cadet - June 3, 2013

@782. Phil –
“On the other hand, the foreign box office seems to be up considerably, which will probably be enough to ensure another one gets made.”

I think that’s a given, the foreign box office will guarantee another film at roughly the same budget. I don’t expect to see any radical TMP to TWOK drops for sure. And now Paramount knows what it takes to motivate the foreign audience from a marketing perspective. They’ve certainly already gotten more than their 35% investment bump back …

Still, I hope they don’t discount the effect of the ST09 Home Video priming the pump for STID. Many said at the time when it’s foreign numbers were so disappointing that audiences who skipped it at the theater would see it on Home Video and it would excite them for the sequel. That may be a huge factor here. And if so, STID may have caused a few disappointments for the next one if the domestic numbers are any indication and they can’t simply count on getting those numbers again. Of course Cumberbatch’s draw can’t be discounted here either.

I’m sure their international people are all over this, but you’re right, considering the Domestic drop, Bad Robot’s in a precarious position for the sequel.

785. Adam - June 3, 2013

@778

Do they need to explain why William Shatner has brown eyes but Chris Pine’s are blue?

There comes a point when you just have to accept that the role was recast and move on. Unless you’re seriously upset that they didn’t find a Mexican to play an Indian…

786. William Bradley - June 3, 2013

I’m a big Shatner fan from the very beginning of Star Trek, but I didn’t notice that he and Chris Pine, who is quite fine in the role, have different color eyes.

Everybody noticed the wild change in ethnicity in “Khan Noonien Singh.”

785. Adam – June 3, 2013

787. William Bradley - June 3, 2013

Fan service? Or fan slap in the face?

>782. Phil – June 3, 2013
@780. The one stat that keeps popping up there is that the under 24 ticket, which showed up in droves last time, was AWOL for this movie. Bad Robot seemed to assume they would turn out for a movie a bit heavy on fan service, which was a miscalculation.

788. Danpaine - June 3, 2013

580. Buzz Cagney – May 31, 2013

Two weeks after seeing the movie i’ve largely forgotten it. So if thats what the production team were aiming for then good job gang!

———————————————————————————————-

This is actually a really good point. After waiting pretty anxiously for four years and visiting this site daily, I saw STID twice. Now, about three weeks later, I’ve pretty much dismissed it – hardly even think out it. That speaks volumes for a guy who’s been a fan for nearly 40 years.

As a matter of fact, whenever I think of the way they shoehorned “Khan” in there in name only, I kind of inwardly cringe.

But hey, they got my money, they’re happy. Moving along.

789. William Bradley - June 3, 2013

Well, he didn’t turn out to be Khan, but he is the lead in Marvel’s big new movie …

http://www.deadline.com/2013/06/benicio-del-toro-takes-lead-role-in-marvels-guardians-of-the-galaxy/

790. sean - June 3, 2013

#777

“I personally was not convinced by any of his answers on the question…”

Can I ask why?

791. sean - June 3, 2013

#776

“Well almost, today is going to widen the gap a few million more. While technically not part of the weekend, Monday is arguably the most important day in the Memorial Day weekend. So tomorrow will paint the true picture.”

You’re right, but Memorial Day Monday was the 26th, not the 3rd.

792. Tom - June 3, 2013

Wouldn’t it be coming full circle if the team somehow works the Talosians into the movie celebrating the 50th anniversary. Im sure the Talosians will look menacing enough for a movie. The only planet basically banned by the Federation. Imagine the klingons getting put in “the cage” before Pike. Perhaps they were one of the species they tested. Could their mind altering abilities be used as a weapon? Maybe in this timeline they are agressive. Many options with them. However I know most want something new. Still could incorporate new elements to it

793. Curious Cadet - June 3, 2013

@791 sean,

Right, but ST09 opened a week earlier than STID.

ST09 didn’t hit Memorial Day until it’s 18th day. STID hit Memorial Day on it’s 12th day and already had its earnings surge. Today is STID’s corresponding Monday to ST09′s Memorial Day Monday earnings surge. The numbers should now be fairly reflective of what to expect going forward, at least until we get to July 4th when the surge days will be offset by a week again.

794. Joel1245 - June 3, 2013

” I want “strange new worlds” in the next one, and no more rehashing of stuff from TOS.”

I’m with MJ#19 on this one. I want to see new fresh stories, not rehashed. Once Harrison revealed that he was Khan (hence confirming my worse fear), I immediately lost interest. It wasn’t just about Cumberbatch not looking anything like Khan (although that played a large part) but it was just the simple fact that this wasn’t fresh or new. That and the fact that they felt that a less than one minute cameo by Nimoy was needed. I love the new franchise but I always told myself it needed to stand on its own two legs and not rely on rehashed characters or original star cameos. What did we get? Exactly that.

795. Robman007 - June 3, 2013

I’m pretty sure the turn out for this film has nothing to do with a film that had some fan service in it. It was more or less the following…

1. 2 weeks after Iron Man, an inferior movie. Mindless droves flocked to it because it was Iron Man. I’m not saying this Trek was a super intelligent flick, but it was smarter and better.

2. Came out the week before Fast 6. Again, attracted the mindless idiots in droves.

3. The domestic ad campaign was not as good as the international. Last flick they pulled out all the stops. Amazing trailers, marketing all over the place, toys, etc…not much domestically, and the film was not even promoted until 6 months before release. That needs to change.

4. JJ picking Star Wars…should have kept that one under wraps until AFTER the film was released. That became a bigger story then the new Trek flick..

I’d probably add unnessessary secrecy to that list, but I’m sure that didn’t hurt things…just a combo of dumb marketing and the mass flock of idiotic youth in our society wanting to see a brain dead flick about fast cars and a really stupid sequel to a comic book flick that made money because it’s a Marvel film (example..Spider Man 3…made tons of bank, dumb as sin)…

796. Robman007 - June 3, 2013

@794..in all fairness, most of the comments on these very boards and others in the Trek web community ASKED for and wanted either

Klingons
Khan
an original story…

They got Klingons, they got Khan..and if you take out the parts in the warp core, you got an original story…

Now folks complain, yet immediatly ask for Talosians….I’m hoping Bob and the crew don’t fall for that one again…just do something new and original and don’t release it near a Fast sequel or a Marvel film…hard to get the moronic society to attend if you have those in the theaters..

797. Robman007 - June 3, 2013

and yes, the Nimoy cameo was unnessessary, but I’m not complainning…it’s nice seeing him play Spock again and the man is not getting younger….

798. NC Trekker - June 3, 2013

Does anyone have a link on the toys that are available internationally?

Also, “Harrison” had to be lying about being Khan. It is the only thing that makes sense. Heck, Harrison might have unplugged the real Khan’s cryo tube and taken his place.

799. chrisfawkes.com - June 3, 2013

Actualy 796Robman007

Most of us asked for it not to be Khan. The writers were following their own fanboy desires rather than what most trekkies wanted.

But any request were not made in unison anyway. Some wanted Klingons, some did not. Most wanted an original story, some did not.

So some were always going to be let down. You cannot say they cannot be because you thought you summed up the collective thoughts of the forum.

800. dmduncan - June 3, 2013

778. Josh C. – June 3, 2013
774 dmduncan -

I think there are two questions here:

1) why did the filmmakers AS FILMMAKERS decide to cast Cumberbatch as Khan, and

2) How do they explain IN CANON the different of looks, beyond the forgivable differences brought upon by having a different actor play the role to begin with

***

On 1: Well I can see by his performance a good reason why they cast him, but that reason does not get anyone out of the hot seat. The only forgivable reason is the personal one Bob gave, which to me was also a good reason to forego doing Khan for the sequel.

On 2: Well of COURSE nobody expects Ricardo Montalban again, so no explanation is necessary merely because they recast the part with an actor who WASN’T a Montalban twin. The criticism is that they didn’t cast someone who fits the established ethnicity of the character. Not necessary that he looks like Montalban.

801. chrisfawkes.com - June 3, 2013

I don’t think we should ever treat people different based on the color of their skin or ethnicity.

If a person breaks into your house call them for what they are whether that be Caucasian, Asian, African American, Indian… the list goes on.

To acknowledge someone’s race for actions good or bad is to treat all equally.

to treat someone different, better or worse based on race is to not treat all people equally.

So to have to change a characters ethnicity for fear of offending I find hard to buy.

Not saying that was not the reason but if we respect all then it should not have been a problem.

802. William Bradley - June 3, 2013

Actually, Iron Man does a much cleverer job on the same issue that STID tries to engage.

And of course it is an outstanding movie.

>795. Robman007 – June 3, 2013
I’m pretty sure the turn out for this film has nothing to do with a film that had some fan service in it. It was more or less the following…

1. 2 weeks after Iron Man, an inferior movie. Mindless droves flocked to it because it was Iron Man. I’m not saying this Trek was a super intelligent flick, but it was smarter and better.

803. RAMA - June 3, 2013

The actuals are out, STID was raised from $16.4 to $16.8 million.

804. RAMA - June 3, 2013

STID now stands a shade under $329 million. It’ll likely be at $360-370 million by next monday WW.

805. Curious Cadet - June 3, 2013

@796. Robman007,
“the Trek web community ASKED for and wanted either Klingons Khan
an original story…”

I have to agree with chrisfawkes, the polls suggest a completely different picture. Yes there were some vocal proponents, but unless they completely discounted the polls, then they did whatever they wanted to do.

—————————-
“Now folks complain, yet immediatly ask for Talosians….”

Not sure if they are the same people who voted overwhelmingly “no khan” … nevertheless, what a horrible idea. Talosians? That’s like using Gary Mitchell. Unless they let you go, there’s pretty much no way they can be defeated … and that’s not a very satisfying climax. On the other hand, Inception did surprisingly well.

806. CAPT KRUNCH - June 3, 2013

Why is STID 10 million off the mark from ST’09?????
All the reviews sound so favorable…have the TREKKERS or TREKKIES just given up on it?? Who cares if the villian is Khan!. who cares if we’ve heard these lines before! Is it not a good film??…does it not have any merit on it’s own?… Or was it placement. Had it been released a month earlier or maybe a year earlier have anything to do with such smaller than expected box office? I’ve seen it 4 times now and will probably go again before Man of Steel comes out.. After Earth and Now you see me will fall off like Hangover…but Man of Steel and World War Z could inflict more damage in the next 3 weeks.

807. ricardocube - June 3, 2013

@806

1. I think 4 years was too long in between films. They should have struck while the iron was hot.

2. None of the stars have become massive stars after 09. Cumberbatch relatively unknown in US

3. It did nothing to bring more people into Trek

4. Villain not given enough screen time

5. Villain’s identity hidden and people lied about it

Having said that i thought it was an excellent Star Trek film and I have seen it 4 times.

808. Mad Mann - June 3, 2013

796. Robman007

Who asked for Khan? Most fans actually asked to NOT have Khan in the movie. There were polls on this very site about it.

809. Robman007 - June 3, 2013

805. Curious Cadet..the polls now, yes, but go back and read some boards from the last film, and yes, folks asked for Khan. Go to the article in which Khan was “outted” a year and a half ago or so, yes.

I’m not saying that a large majority wanted him, but enough did to go ahead with him as a villain.

Regarding Iron Man 3, I’m a comic book fan, I like Iron Man and that movie sucked compaired to Trek. It sucked compaired to Iron Man 1 and 2. Trek, while not B&B Trek, was good. Great portal film. Smarter then Iron Man 3, Fast 6 and Hangover 3.

I do agree, though..the 4 year wait hurt BADLY. Too many times Trek was just tossed aside for other projects and pushed back. A new film should have been released 2 years, 3 at the max after the last film. Strike while the iron is hot. JJ Directing or not..

810. Shilliam Watner (Click Name for Trek Poster) - June 3, 2013

Well, I finally saw the film. I would have gone sooner, but once I heard the story details I kind of lost my enthusiasm.

I have to say, it was a very exciting film to watch, but not much more than that. While I could successfully ignore much of the lazy writing in the first film, I was hoping for more with this second one, beyond in increased budget and effects. I didn’t get that.

But I was just unable to excuse the story. I really wanted to, I really wanted to like this movie more. I saw the first one three times at the theater, but once will be enough for this one.

I think that’s it for me on this site. The thrill of Trek Movies is pretty much worn off for me. I hope Star Trek makes it back to TV some day, hopefully with a stable of thoughtful, excellent writers. I wish all of you the best.

811. Robman007 - June 3, 2013

Another question….why is it so difficult for folks to accept that Captain Kirk is viewed as a ladies man…a womanizer at times.

“Kirk had quite the reputation as a ladies’ man.”

Who said that Quote? I’ll give ya a hint, it was from a B&B era trek show, long before new Trek……and why is it a bad thing?

812. Josh C. - June 3, 2013

806 CAPT KRUNCH -

Part of it could be placement. A review of where the movie ranked for the weekend on it’s 1st, 2nd, and 3rd weekends:

2009: 1st, 1st, 3rd
STID: 1st, 3rd, 4th

As we know, FIVE new movies came out in the 2 weeks after Into Darkness: Fast 6, Hangover 3, Epic, After Earth, and Now You See Me – and this is following Iron Man 3 from two weeks prior as well.

For 2009, Wolverine was released the week before, so it had to compete with that, but the following two weeks saw Angels and Demons (which didn’t even take Star Trek off of #1), and then Terminator Salvation and Night of the Museum two weeks later, which both had good (but not great) $55 million 3-day weekends.

So while I think the 4 year thing may be a problem, Trekkies being mad at Khan may be a problem, but I also just think Into Darkness face a lot more immediate competition as well.

813. Josh C. - June 3, 2013

so my magic projecting ball (which said it should be at about $180 after this weekend at about this time last week) says it should probably hit about $195 million after next weekend, and probably break $200 million the following weekend.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it makes between $210 and $215 million total domestically, which puts it right up with Wrath of Khan after inflation (per Box Office Mojo). Depending on whether it beats WoK, it will be the 4th or 5th highest grossing Star Trek movie after inflation.

814. Robman007 - June 3, 2013

“Trekkies being mad at Khan may be a problem”…I’d say that’s only a Trekkie problem and has nothing to do with the box office…it almost borderlines on inviting mockery from non-fans for that attitude…

…it’s more like waiting 4 years combined with a lackluster Domestic ad campaign, very little merchandising, the “JJ and Star Wars’ Fiasco and more importantly

THE FILM WAS RELEASED ABROAD WEEKS BEFORE IT WAS HERE. The film was spoiled. Probably has alot to do with it….it’s just horrendous that in our age of technology and progress that a film cannot premier across the world AT THE SAME TIME

815. Curious Cadet - June 3, 2013

809. Robman007,
“I’m not saying that a large majority wanted him, but enough did to go ahead with him as a villain.”

I’ll take your word for it, but one would think that in the 3 years it took them to work out the script, they would have gotten the hint Khan was going to be a mistake.

816. Curious Cadet - June 3, 2013

@812 & 813. Josh C.,
“Depending on whether it beats WoK, it will be the 4th or 5th highest grossing Star Trek movie after inflation.”

Unfortunately it also has the highest production budget of any Trek film to date.

As for why it’s trailing now, I agree with your assessment, but the key is that it got a free extra week up against A&D before Memorial Dat weekend, and then the competition it had was not as strong as the current crop. That extra week accounts for most of the disparity between the two.

817. Aurore - June 3, 2013

790. sean – June 3, 2013
“#777
‘I personally was not convinced by any of his answers on the question…’
Can I ask why?”
_________

I’ve said why in some of my posts on this thread ( @307, 510, 645 ).

However, @ 170, a fellow poster provided a link to a thread where I had already answered that question, as it were.

It is a thread where Mr. Orci talked about Khan.

As you remember, some fans were satisfied with his responses, and, others were not.

818. Matt Wright - June 3, 2013

@ 762 — Yes the music was different. Giacchino went back and tweaked it once the near final edits were made to the movie, since the order of the scenes had changed, etc. He said so in his public radio interview and music preview that we posted a story on a week or so before the opening of the movie.
http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/09/listen-to-22-minutes-of-star-trek-into-darkness-score-giacchino-interview-soundtrack-now-due-may-28/

819. sean - June 3, 2013

I don’t think World War Z is going to be a problem. In fact, I think that’s the first bona fide bomb of the summer waiting to happen. Troubled production, delayed release, a completely reshot ending, and word has it they screwed up the source material. And honestly, I don’t think most people have any idea what it’s about. None of the trailers exactly scream zombie.

Man of Steel, on the other hand, is probably going to destroy everything.

820. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 3, 2013

I actually wrote here, from the very start, is that this Harrison/Khan is not the same Khan that we met in Space Seed/TWOK. That Khan is still in one of the cryotubes…

Isn’t that right, Bob, Alex, Damon? – Not that anyone of you will tell…;)

Now, please, everyone – let it go!!!

#811 – I don’t have a problem with Kirk being viewed as a ladies’ man…a womanizer at times. Of course, he is – he likes the women, especially their sexuality, but not only that
.

I have a problem with some people negatively defining what a “ladies’ man” or “womanizer” means and keep applying it to the Kirk character. To call him a “peeping tom” or “perv” is nasty and over the top. Real peeping toms/stalkers and pervs get arrested because they can cause harm to the “object” of their infatuation or ardent dislike, hatred. That is the real sexual objectification.

James Kirk is never shown, in any iteration, as doing that kind of thing. Twice, in this timeline, he happened to accidentally see a female undress/be in her underwear and did look and LISTEN (in the case of what Uhura was saying – ST09). In the first movie, he had his clothes thrown at him and pushed out of the room and he only had two questions – ie about the Klingon transmissions Uhura picked up and what her first name was. I did not sense that he was being sleazy at all – just open and honest.

With Carol Marcus, he was more surprised than anything at seeing her in her underwear.

The only time I felt that this Kirk was sleazy was in the first movie when he realized he had placed his hands (accidentally) on Uhura’s breasts and then gave a really sleazy/icky look – in the bar fight scene. Uhura rightly “smacked” him for it, because he deserved it. The rest of what happened was not deserved.

Many men and women today don’t necessarily want a full on relationship with the other for various reasons and it is more than likely that similar would apply in this Star Trek’s 23rd century. That does not mean that they cannot give consent and enjoy being intimately acquainted with a nice male/female for however short or long a time as they choose. This is about allowing people choices and free will. This is also about both men and women distinguishing between what might be deemed undue force, deception and appreciating that either has the right to say NO…or YES.

What is the “B&B era trek”?

821. Curious Cadet - June 3, 2013

@819. sean,
“Man of Steel, on the other hand, is probably going to destroy everything.”

According to Damon Lindelof’s Tweet.

822. Matt Wright - June 3, 2013

@ Keachick — B&B-era usually refers to “Berman and Braga” which is to say the VOY through ENT timeframe.

823. Aurore - June 3, 2013

@783
“I’m contributing to the retcon discussion because it’s a distraction, and it’s kind of fun, like a puzzle…”
_______

And, as I said ; I’m enjoying it.
This is an important topic, in my opinion.
Therefore, whether I agree with some people’s view or not , when the issue is discussed, I’m interested.

Speaking of which, one of your suggestions made me smile, in a good way, which does not happen usually when I think of Khan and his new ethnicity :

“…From this they began a series of experiments genetically modifying his DNA using advanced 23rd Century technology which gave his blood miraculous healing properties they suspected from the tests. It also had the side effect of increasing his strength and dramatically altering his appearance…”

Khan Noonien Singh. No longer Sikh. But, probably sick.
Hence the whiteness ?

…I apologise…

How… “convenient”..would that be though, if “they” came up with such an explanation down the line…

” No answer Orci ever gives will satisfy everyone, if anyone. The fact they have known this secret for over 18 months, and did not have a canon explanation ready knowing how fans would receive this, is perhaps the most telling factor of their position.”

I agree.
(Although not every fan expects an explanation.).

“….Arguably that canon was instrumental to Trek’s success and is a part of what bonds the fans together.”

I see your point.
Nevertheless, I must say that, when I found out about “canon” in 2009, my impression was that it tended to set fans apart from each other as much (as easily) as it tended to bond them together, in some instances.

“…Still, I feel there’s something else we’re not being told…”

What’s the matter with you? You don’t like “secrets” anymore?!…

824. Marja - June 3, 2013

Josh C. – June 3, 2013 – I agree they need to look into why STID didn’t do as well domestically ….
I really do believe it’s because there wasn’t advance marketing [aside from small gloomy-looking posters in the back corners] in the theatres. And there was very little TV marketing until the blitz a week or two before the opening.

806. CAPT KRUNCH – June 3, 2013 Why is STID 10 million off the mark from ST’09? … Or was it placement. Had it been released a month earlier or maybe a year earlier have anything to do with such smaller than expected box office?
Cap’n, I believe you’ve answered the question right there. I am wondering what level of stupidity it took for Paramount to release a film in the height of May movie frenzy when they could have opened worldwide a MONTH earlier! Theatres would have filled up with fans and others hungry for a good action flick. It would have gotten legs long before Iron Man ever came in.

Also, as someone else mentioned, all the publicity over JJ and Star Wars competed with the ST publicity. That and the fact that a lot of the public get SWars and Trek confused, and remember that “the last three Star *** films sucked, didn’t they?”

ON KHAN – Wouldn’t it be “fascinating” if he really IS a shape-shifter. Garth of Izar …

Whoever said “There wasn’t enough of the villain”?? Are you serious??

ON THE NEXT MOVIE:
BobOrci, What a pleasant surprise it was to see Spock and Uhura as a couple in the first movie and continuing in this movie. In contrast to reviewers, I didn’t think Uhura was being a “whiny girlfriend” – she was showing concern for Spock’s future and the future of their relationship, one which is meaningful, unlike so many movie relationships. Spock’s PTSD – what a year this poor guy has had – explains all the rage Spock goes through in this film. I think maybe some viewers didn’t get that.

I loved how Spock and Kirk started on opposite sides of an arc and completed each arc – Kirk goes from personal friendship to “the needs of the many” and Spock goes from “needs of the many” to personal friendship – it was very touching.

While I appreciated the Marcus/NeoCon allegory, I’d have preferred “Khan” to remain “John Harrison.” But, heck, fanfic exists, and RetCon is one of many things fanfic does well!

I really loved Nibiru and hope we get to see more New Life and New Civilizations in the next one. I do hope we’ll see more of the Enterprise, that Kirk will have found his TOS-level maturity, and that science and/or diplomacy play a big part.

825. filmboy35 - June 3, 2013

Finally saw STID. Very late I know. But event kept conspiring against me every time I planned to go. In short: I thought it was a pretty good movie. Sure there are things to pick apart, long range transporting, call to old Mr. Spock, and the whole 72 supermen in missiles thing. But overall not bad.

Cumberbatch was great. Would love to see him as Khan again in a sequel. I liked Alice Eve as Marcus as well.

I will post up a more detailed review later tonight. But in short I liked it.

826. Phil - June 3, 2013

@825. Nah, I saw it last weekend, too.

827. Thorny - June 3, 2013

819… “Man of Steel, on the other hand, is probably going to destroy everything.”

Or it might be this year’s “Amazing Spider-man”, a remake/reboot nobody asked for, that does good but not blockbuster box office.

828. Bucky - June 3, 2013

Was just listening to the Howard Stern Show from Thursday (Howard said he saw the movie and loved it) and this guy called in about Star Trek Into Darkness yelling a laundry list of how things are different “Romulus exploding! Using Khan as a weapon! Earlier contact with the Cardassians and the Bajorians!” (which means the guy read Countdown to Into Darkness) “The whole thing is a timeline manipulation plot, Howard!” Stern said, “What the $%#@ are you talking about? Get off my show!” and hung up on him. It was weird.

829. mcn - June 3, 2013

Much better than I thought it was going to be, actually.

That first sequence with the Enterprise coming out of the water from the POV of the natives then the crane shot to the ocean… wow. Blew me away… glad I saw STID on the big screen if only for that one amazing sequence…

830. Bucky - June 3, 2013

827 – The Amazing Spider-Man made 750 million dollars worldwide (almost 500 mil of that was international gross), I think that knocks it above good to blockbuster. Is over 700 mil not qualify for blockbuster status anymore?

831. Thorny - June 3, 2013

812… I’m not sure why people keep saying ST09 beat Angels & Demons in its second week. It didn’t. A&D made $46 million. ST09 made $43 million.

832. dmduncan - June 3, 2013

Oh Iron Man 3 was a piece of crap. It had its moments, and the Mandarin surprise was cool, but it was too nonsensical.

In the beginning we see Tony trick Pepper with an empty Iron Man suit that he is remote controlling from the basement, and then when he calls on his bazillion other Iron Man suits to the rescue, they are all flying around kicking butt by themselves while he’s occupied doing other things.

So they actually set up one idea in the beginning, and then draw on it in the end as if it is expanding on that idea, when in reality the ending is a different idea—ROBOT suits, not remote piloted suits, which idea never got set up.

So we got an epic failure to properly set up the denouement.

If it’s that easy to be a hero who needs Tony Stark in a suit?

Iron Man 3. That’s also the ranking I give it. Third place.

833. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 3, 2013

I mentioned in one of my first posts after first seeing the movie (have seen it four times so far) that Kirk (and Spock) not abiding strictly by the “letter of the law” regarding the Prime Directive could well have been an ethical decision. It was risky and they did not intend for any of the inhabitants of Nibiru to see them, especially the shuttlecraft or Enterprise.

People here seem to have taken as hard a line approach to Kirk as Pike and Starfleet did. However, I am not sure what the main reason for this is.

Is it because Kirk defied the Prime Directive and in so doing, presumably saved those people? or

Is it more because Kirk lied in his report to Starfleet about what happened on Nibiru and their involvement?

So many people here seem to really hate Kirk.
Was that intended by the writers or is this something more to do with many viewer’s own perceptions and projections?

Just wondering…

Bob Orci – any comments?

834. Thorny - June 3, 2013

830… Nope. “Amazing Spider-Man” opened to a very modest $62 million in the U.S. (compared to $151 million opening weekend of Spider-Man 3) which in no way equals blockbuster status.

835. Bucky - June 3, 2013

834. Yeah, but who cares about opening weekend, it made 750 million dollars worldwide. Y’know how many summer movies reach 750 million dollars worldwide? Not a heck of a lot.

836. Ashley - June 3, 2013

@boborci

Not sure if this has been mentioned already but, the Vengeance is probably mostly intact. All that advanced tech should be salvageable. Will we see Starfleet adapting it into their ships?

837. Mel - June 3, 2013

Higher ticket prizes and inflation have a huge influence on the box office numbers. Just look at those German numbers from the last three movies:

Nemesis
total gross: $8,284,148
viewers: 1.274.837

Star Trek 2009
total gross: $12,798,139
viewers: 1.272.813

Star Trek Into Darkness (until 26th May)
total gross: $16,148,035
viewers: 1.176.491

So on the 26th May Into Darkness had about 100.000 viewers less that the previous two movies in their whole run. Nevertheless it had already doubled the gross of Nemesis and also made a few millions more than Star Trek 2009.

838. LaughingOut Loud - June 3, 2013

Okay – take out the Star Trek from Into Darkness (since it really is NOT Trek, anyway) and it still sucks as a predictable, assembly-line (typical) Hollywood movie. What a shame Paramount is only interested in the $ part of Trek these days.

839. Hugh Hoyland - June 3, 2013

As well as I think Zachary Quinto channeled Nimoy in Star Trek 09 IMO Chris Pine did just a good a job channeling TOS Kirk in STID (if not better).

Also IMO Iron Man 3 has nothing on STID, and I say that not as a “Trekkie” but just as a fan of film. Yes it did have its moments and a sort of morality lesson but STID made the point far better.

840. Trekkiegal63 - June 3, 2013

I’ve read that two areas in which STID dropped off, viewer percentage-wise, from the ST2009 film is the under 25 demographic and women. Well, I can’t speak for the under 25-ers, as I’m not one, but I *am* a woman and I can give an inkling to what might, potentially, be going on there.

But you don’t even have to take my word for it, it’s been in over half the reviews of the film (I have some excerpts on my blog), and in articles meant to elicit social commentary.

A few of the more recent examples (out of hundreds):

Actress Felicia Day (Buffy, Eureka, Supernatural, The Guild) did a write-up on Trek as she is, apparently, a Trekkie:

http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/50858883769/star-trek-movie-spoilerzzzz

(…popular feminist site Jezebel created a thinkgroup specifically addressing Day’s observations).

The multi-award winning site ThinkProgress.org had a few things to say on the same vein as well:

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/05/21/2042741/damon-lindelofs-blithe-treatment-of-star-trek-sexism-and-why-genre-fiction-gets-no-respect/

As did Culture Mass:

http://culturemass.com/2013/05/25/star-trek-and-the-need-to-boldly-go/

And Hollywood.com:

http://www.hollywood.com/news/movies/55014633/star-trek-into-darkness-fan-review-betrayal-star-wars-prequels?page=all

And one contributor for Geekdad.com explains why he didn’t go to see it (and continues to refuse to):

http://geekdad.com/2013/05/not-watching-star-trek/

…Just putting this out there as a possible answer to one (out of many) reasons for the lackluster numbers.

841. Mel - June 3, 2013

Star Trek 2009 reached place 13 in the 2009 worldwide grosses list.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?view2=worldwide&yr=2009&p=.htm

Star Trek Into Darkness is at the moment on place 6 in the 2013 worldwide grosses list.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?view2=worldwide&yr=2013&p=.htm

What do you think on what place Into Darkness will be at the end of the year? I think the following new movies may surpass Into Darkness:

Man Of Steel
Monsters University
Despicable Me 2
The Wolverine
The Smurfs 2
Ender’s Game
Thor: The Dark World
The Hunger Games: Catching Fire
The Hobbit: Desolation Of Smaug

I think Into Darkness will surpass G.I. Joe, which is at the moment in front of it. So if all of those movies above will really do better, ID will end up on the 14th place in the yearly ranking. Of course I may be wrong and a few will do worse than Star Trek. On the other hand there may be a few I haven’t named, which will do better than Star Trek. I haven’t heard so much about movies yet, which will start in the fall and winter. So those were harder to estimate.

842. Matthew Brannon - June 3, 2013

@818 (Matt Wright)

Thank you! Great explanation, thanks for the source.

843. Hugh Hoyland - June 3, 2013

I’m wondering about “The Man of Steel”, will it be a shmash hit in the US? So far the trailers look awsome and I actually like “Sucker Punch” (:0) and “300″ and not to mention Dawn of the Dead.

But I dunno…

844. Hugh Hoyland - June 3, 2013

Smash*

845. New Horizon - June 3, 2013

I find it amusing that the majority voted for “no Khan” and yet they went with Khan. What happened? Oh….right…Damon Lindelof. Watch out Damon, or you’ll end up becoming the new Brannon Braga.

As I noted elsewhere, I was ‘mostly’ enjoying Into Darkness prior to the Khan Reveal, but my investment in the movie was lost after that. I would have left and gotten my money back, but I purchased the tickets in advance online and they have a no refund policy.

846. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 3, 2013

As my better half pointed out to me, a peeping tom is a voyeur who does NOT want to be seen looking at the person. He also wondered if that is not who the paparazzi are… Kirk could hardly be described as that. He is overtly open and appreciative of what he can see of women.

Twice, that guy, Jim Kirk, has been thrown into a situation where he found himself seeing an undressed attractive young female. In neither case did he deliberately seek out the opportunity to see Uhura or Carol Marcus in their underwear or see them naked. Therefore, accusing him of being a peeping tom or perv or punk is quite erroneous, unsavoury and malicious.

847. McCoy's#1Fan - June 3, 2013

Can anyone tell me if Bob Orci has addressed the fan backlash over McCoy’s diminished role? I haven’t seen anything and he never replied to any of my comments.(Bob, if you did and I somehow missed it, my
apoligies.)

848. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 3, 2013

As my better half pointed out to me, a peeping tom is a voyeur who does NOT want to be seen looking at the person. He also wondered if that is not who the paparazzi are… Kirk could hardly be described as that. He is overtly open and appreciative of what he can see of women.

Twice, that guy, Jim Kirk, has been thrown into a situation where he found himself seeing an undressed attractive young female. In neither case did he deliberately seek out the opportunity to see Uhura or Carol Marcus in their underwear or see them naked. Therefore, accusing him of being a peeping tom or perv or punk is quite erroneous, unsavoury and malicious.

“For main characters, Uhura had a FEW nice scenes (as a vehicle to humanize Spock mostly), but that other woman character was the WORST damsel in distress ever. I kept waiting for her turn, waiting for her to not be the victim, to be a bit cleverer, to add to the equation in a “yeah you go girl” way but no, she was there to be sufficiently sexy that Kirk would acknowledge her existence, to be pretty, to serve the plot. I loved her bob. That’s it.” Excerpt from Felicia Day’s review.

Bollocks. Kirk accepted her (I assume the reviewer is referring to Carol Wallace/Marcus) because he thought that she was legitimately assigned as a weapons expert to the Enterprise. He had no idea why she had been, but was not about to question the apparent orders of Starfleet. Carol Marcus – yes, Felicia, “that other woman” does have a name, you rude so-n-so – was no more a “damsel in distress” than Kirk or Scotty, once they were on board the Vengeance. Kirk needed to stop Admiral Marcus and his ship, irrespective of whether Carol was there with her father or not.

The blatant, pathetic, rude attitudes of so many women today towards what women characters are shown in movies is unbelievable and self-defeating. It is like a stuck record. Gosh, if this and everything else I have read is what so-called feminism means, I want no part of it. It reeks of pettiness, envy, jealousy, lack of sensibility and blatant stupidity.

849. Jonboc - June 3, 2013

#847. “Can anyone tell me if Bob Orci has addressed the fan backlash over McCoy’s diminished role?”

Can anyone show me the fan backlash over McCoy’s perceived “diminished role”? I’ve noticed some low grumblings but hardly anything that could be considered serious “fan backlash” considering the wildly successful box office and possitive word of mouth the movie is recieving in general.

850. boborci - June 3, 2013

847. McCoy’s#1Fan – June 3, 2013
Can anyone tell me if Bob Orci has addressed the fan backlash over McCoy’s diminished role? I haven’t seen anything and he never replied to any of my comments.(Bob, if you did and I somehow missed it, my
apoligies.)

—————

I agree! Need more Bones!

851. Hugh Hoyland - June 3, 2013

@Bob Orci

I know its kinda early but do you have any idea if you’ll be involved with a sequel to STID yet?

852. Jonboc - June 3, 2013

…one thing I didn’t get, and maybe Bob can shine light on this, why did Marcus have a model of his secret ship on display in his office? Not very subtle. And if JJ’s Enterprise can replace the TV series version, then a Daedelus class ship could…and, IMO, should, have taken the place of the NX 01 in the model display.

853. sean - June 3, 2013

#827

Unlikely, given the advance buzz and the people involved.

But as someone else pointed out, if it did Spider-man #’s ($750 mil worldwide) it would hardly be something to sneeze at.

854. Rick - June 3, 2013

@849 Jonboc-

You really haven’t seen it? It’s pretty much on every Star Trek site around. I’m not talking everyone, but A LOT of people have been asking for Bones. The last polls that asked who they wanted to see more of in future Trek movies, Bones/Urban win by an overwhelming majority. He is the third most beloved character in Trek.

Yes the movie was great and box office was good, doesn’t mean we can’t be disappointed by lack of Bones or lack of scenes of the big trio. Hopefully something they rectify in the next film…although that was what I was hoping would happen in THIS film lol. I still have faith it will happen.

855. boborci - June 3, 2013

852. Jonboc – June 3, 2013
…one thing I didn’t get, and maybe Bob can shine light on this, why did Marcus have a model of his secret ship on display in his office? Not very subtle. And if JJ’s Enterprise can replace the TV series version, then a Daedelus class ship could…and, IMO, should, have taken the place of the NX 01 in the model display.

—-

Agree that was a mistake — shoulda been on set that day!

However, one could argue that a pre-existing design was recommissioned and altered to be a weapon of war.

856. Basement Blogger - June 3, 2013

For the next Star Trek, I hope to see a less angry Spock. I would like to see a Spock that is gentler and wiser.

857. Marja - June 3, 2013

833, Keachick, I have a feeling the reason some people hate NuKirk is because they cannot seem to understand that NuKirk is eight years younger than TOS Kirk, still making mistakes, still being brash. [And yet, as shown in the "detonating the fleet" scene at Daystrom conference room at SF HQ, a freakin' genius at tactics!] They also cannot seem to understand that this is an ALTverse, so the JTKirk they know from TOS is not THIS Kirk. Oh my goodness.

I loved Kirk’s evolution in this movie, a logical extension of his pluck and cockiness in the first, his comeuppance for his “can’t-lose” attitude. One of the VERY interesting things, to me, is that TOS Kirk broke the Prime Directive at least three times, if not more, and nobody on this board says “boo” about that! ALT Kirk breaks the PD and gets read out by his mentor! But it’s a properly humbling experience, and we see Kirk throughout this movie being tempered by experience. And Chris Pine does such a great job.

I did not much like TOS Kirk – he always came across as rather arrogant to me until I watched some of the first season eps over and over. In the first season TOS Kirk was very well-written. By the last half of second season he was becoming a caricature. [I liked Kirk in Wrath of Khan because he was going through the humbling experience of aging.]

Pine’s Kirk is in no wise a caricature [except perhaps his bar scene in the first movie, but he got humbled there too]. Pine is a wonderful actor and has made me love Kirk, and that’s saying something!

————————————– BELOW BE SPOILERS——————————

Personally I thought Carol Marcus did some pretty brave [Starfleet-type] things in this movie – slipping onto the Enterprise to find out what her father was up to; disarming a torpedo and trying to negotiate with her dad [who turned out to be insane, basically].

Uhura was much more than Spock’s “whiny” girlfriend or present only “to humanize Spock.” She faces down a group of Klingons. She speaks their language to them, and yes, she almost gets killed – then there is a distraction [Harrison] – and she USES the distraction to grab the Klingon’s OWN KNIFE to kill him. She doesn’t get “rescued by Harrison.” She uses a distraction to save herself, just as a male character would. Later she beams down to a moving platform to capture Harrison – and keep Spock from killing him – and save Kirk’s life as a result.

The reasons for the “horrible numbers” STiD is getting? Poor US marketing; Iron Man3, FF6, Epic, the fact that half the public don’t know Trek from Wars and heard “the last three movies of Star Wars sucked, and JJ Abrams is directing Star Wars, so isn’t this movie gonna suck”?

And the horrible numbers among the under-25 female crowd? a bunch of reviewers focusing on “whiny girlfriends”/”eye candy” as the “sole female roles.” It’s summer popcorn movie season; there are very few females in movies done well in the summer. I give Star Trek a B- on the scale – I’d definitely like the female roles to continue improving.

Before people get their backs up, I will re-state what I’ve said on this Board before, and that is, the Marcus underwear scene was out of context, sexist, silly, and uncalled for. There are many ways the Marcus-Kirk scene could have been done better, which I’ve previously written about: have her dialogue with Kirk outside the shuttle before she goes in to change [he could focus on her face a tad too long if we absolutely need to show he's getting all dreamy over her, and she could ask, "Have you heard a word I've said?"] or she could have said, “I’m changing into my flightsuit, do you mind? Please turn around” or any number of other things.

As for Uhura being a “nagging girlfriend” I suppose any time a woman discusses a relationship and the dangers one partner with PTSD is imposing on himself, she’s nagging? I agree the scene on Mudd’s ship as they’re headed to Kronos/Qo”onoS/whatev is not an appropriate venue for such a discussion, but in order for it to occur in such an action-oriented movie I suppose the writers had to shoehorn it in there, dammit. I would have preferred it had been in private, but I guess we had to see another couple of vicious kicks or face-punches or some other thing instead of a two-character Spock and Uhura scene with such a discussion.

Oh, and as to Hollywood women setting a bad example for today’s young women and daughters, which, yes, they do, pretty much, because they’re too thin and large-bosomed and written much worse than in this movie, and are often misused as eye candy: if it bothers people so much, I think they should discuss that with their daughters, their feminist male relatives and friends and young women friends – if they go to see the movie in the first place. If they are really bugged, they can boycott.

Meanwhile, I prefer to praise the good, make my criticisms, and avoid throwing out the baby with the bathwater. For a Hollywood production, this wasn’t as overtly sexist as many I’ve seen. Was it Ripley? No. Was it good feminism? Meh, plenty of room for improvement, but the worst slap to feminism ever? Not to this feminist.

858. Juan - June 3, 2013

Hey Bob. Just saw STID, cool film. Some things I hope to see in the future are..

More Cumberbatch. I was pissed at first that he was Khan (really guys, you couldn’t fine any Indian or Latino actor?) but Cumberbatch was pretty awesome. I’m just gonna have to erase all previous memories of Khan though and pretend its an entirely new character. But seriously though, Montablan will ALWAYS be Khan.

More Carol. And though as a red blooded man I appreciate her STELLAR form, it wasn’t needed. I was already interested in her character without the underwear pose. I liked that smack she gave the Admiral, something we all were wanting to do.

More BONES. I really cannot stress that enough. Urban is perfection and damn if he isn’t the character I always look forward to the most. Less metaphors though, he already funny enough without them.

Kirk and Spock working together like a perfect machine now that they understand what they mean to each other and what Prime Spock was always talking about. 3-D chess would be awesome too.

Cut the Spock and Uhura stuff. I can’t believe how much I disliked it in the film this time. That stupid shuttle fight was ridiculous. I was neutral on that relationship until I saw her act like a fool and question his feelings in the middle of a very serious mission and in front of their boss. WTF?. Uhura is no fool and she should have known better. Spock cares, but he is VULCAN, he tries his best to be as unemotional as possible by nature. And you know what? He’s a Starfleet commander, his first priority is to his job, not what his girlfriend thinks. I found it incredibly annoying this time around.

And on that note, I want to see more Uhura being useful. On Kronos she was the only real chance they had of making it out alive, and even though it didn’t entirely work out, her bravery and delivery of the message to the Klingons was awesome. She is a brilliant officer when she get the chance. And I want to see her be given more chances.

Scotty and Sulu. They are BAMF. That’s all.

Overall I really liked it. Definitely gonna see it again. Thanks for taking time to check out the moments here, it’s really cool of you to interact with the fans the way you do.

859. iamthe1701 - June 3, 2013

hey Bob… maybe you could have had our original TOS in there…. just dressed up a bit like this > http://www.IamThe1701.com ; that could have come to the aid of the falling JJprise? we could have the 1/350 scale SFX model of it sent over to Bad Robot so you guys could check it out! — and if you like, you could use it for set dressing in Scotty quarters in ST3… what do you think?

BYW – big supporter of the film .. saw it 5 times and always had a guest with me! — but you guys can do better next time

860. Allenburch - June 3, 2013

“Star Trek Into Darkness added $37.6 million this weekend; most of that came from China, where the movie opened to an incredible $25 million (nearly triple the lifetime gross of the 2009 movie there). It also had a strong $5 million debut in South Korea. It’s already topped its predecessor with $147.4 million total so far, and it still has Japan, Brazil, France, Italy and Spain on the way.”

love that report from BOM

861. shedai - June 4, 2013

@mr. orci: i am treker since my birth in 1969. i love star trek. i have founded a trekdinner in my city. loved to see tng and everything.

my favourite movie is star trek xi from 2009. do you know why? because it is fresh, it is new.

it is impossible to “satisfy” everyone, but please ! go into new, fresh directions in the next movies / series as you did in the 2009 movie. the best until now – in my opinion!

“into darkness” is great, but not really totally new. Khan is well known, section 31 is known, although that was a great idea to use it in this context.

let´s boldly go, where no one has gone before!

862. flywithsean - June 4, 2013

Just saw it for the third time tonight and every time at the end I am pissed that they did not do my favorite line from the old movies.

When Spock and Kirk are trying to decide where to go first for their “Star Trek” Kirk should have totally said

“Mr. Sulu, you may indulge yourself”

I hear it every time at the end of the movie and really wish they would have used that line

863. Nigger Willie - June 4, 2013

Isa thank bob ohsay is a dum dum foe rehashin wreath of chan ratha then cummin ups with somethang knew.

864. Photon70 - June 4, 2013

@ 862. flywithsean – June 4, 2013

I’d prefer Kirk to have said ’2nd star on the right’.

865. Charles Trotter - June 4, 2013

852. Jonboc

“And if JJ’s Enterprise can replace the TV series version, then a Daedelus class ship could…and, IMO, should, have taken the place of the NX 01 in the model display.”

Er… the NX-01 actually existed in this timeline, unlike the ‘Enterprise’ from the original series. And there’s no way any ship should replace the first warp 5 vessel and the first Starfleet ship to explore deep space.

Having said that, I would also like to have seen a Daedalus class ship in the display — just not in place of anything else there.

866. Mad Mann - June 4, 2013

841. Mel

I agree with most of your list with the exception of Ender’s Game. That movie is gonna bomb hard. I mean, nobody wants it since the OSC name carries such a bad stigma. I know that it will be all over the media when it’s released.

Sorry, Bob, but it’s gonna be a stinker.

867. Mad Mann - June 4, 2013

864. Photon70 – June 4, 2013
@ 862. flywithsean – June 4, 2013

I’d prefer Kirk to have said ’2nd star on the right’.

_______________________________________________

OR about the Captain Picard line from Encounter at Farpoint…
“Let’s see what’s out there.”

But I agree that the last line needed some kind of punch. It didn’t have it.

868. Disinvited - June 4, 2013

First Shatner and now Nimoy:

http://metro.co.uk/2013/06/04/leonard-nimoy-would-love-role-in-jj-abrams-star-wars-episode-7-3827605/

869. McCoy's#1Fan - June 4, 2013

Bob Orci: just saw your reply; thanks.

870. Patroclus - June 4, 2013

@866. Mad Mann

I agree. I think Ender’s Game is going to tank big time.

871. Jay - June 4, 2013

#820

I don’t know why you keep saying this isn’t Khan. It clearly is. There is nothing in the movie to suggest otherwise. It makes no sense for the writers to have any other intention without revealing it in the story. No one, outside of a few like you, will care – so there is no point.

You just have an over active imagination, or refuse to accept the obvious – that they did Khan. It’s just that simple.

872. SoonerDave - June 4, 2013

@856

I’d like to see a Spock that is, well, more Spockular. Alternate timeline and all given, there’s something about the Alternate Timeline Spock that doesn’t quite ring true.

My daughter was interested in some TOS episodes the other day, and we watched “The Corbomite Maneuver.” An underrated episode, except perhaps for the finish, but the point is that Nimoy as Spock really starts to come into TOS form here.

Quinto does a very nice job with Spock, and he’s been given some really good dialog “I am expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously…to which are you referring?” was brilliance. But there’s just an intangible edge that’s not there – perhaps I’d call it a “logical intensity” from TOS Spock that hasn’t yet quite been cultivated in JJSpock.

Not a nitpicker at all – have seen STID twice and loved it, thought it was immensely entertaining. Just drawing a comparison/contrast in the way the Spock characters are/have evolved.

873. Mad Mann - June 4, 2013

872. SoonerDave

The Corbomite Maneuvar is under-rated? Since when? That is one of the golden standards of all Star Trek episodes. I loved the beginning of the first couple of episodes, including this one, that showed the Enterprise crew more of a community in space. The later episodes got away from that.

Anyway, I agree about Quinto and, really, the rest of the crew aren’t in full form yet. I expect that should change by the next one after they had a couple of years exploring deep space together. Here’s hoping…

874. NC Trekker - June 4, 2013

Why does Kirk never know where he wants to go in the movies? He always did in TOS. There was none of the “out there thataway” stuff in TOS.

875. Danpaine - June 4, 2013

Happy 31st Birthday Wrath Of Khan, by the way.

“Surely, the best of times.”

876. William Bradley - June 4, 2013

There would be no Trek, and certainly not this Trek movie, without it.

>875. Danpaine – June 4, 2013

Happy 31st Birthday Wrath Of Khan, by the way.

“Surely, the best of times.”

877. Chain of Command - June 4, 2013

Goodness…… 31 years since Star Trek 2 came out…?

That makes me feel “Old……worn out….”

Guess I’ll have to do something to make me “feel young…”

878. Robman007 - June 4, 2013

@872…just Alternate Spock is much different. Subjected to his planet getting destroyed, people almost wiped out, and his full vulcan father admitting to a blatant emotional deciscion in regards to how he felt about his Mother…just shaping him to be far more in touch with his human side then Nimoy Spock

879. Thorny - June 4, 2013

847… Others may disagree, but I thought INTO DARKNESS had just the right amount of McCoy. He had some great lines, especially with Carol on the planetoid (“there was never a torpedo…”) I think Kirk and Spock are the heart of Star Trek. McCoy is very important, but he is a step down from Kirk and Spock (and a step above Scotty, Sulu, etc.) Remember, Kelley wasn’t even in the second pilot and didn’t make the opening credits until Season 2.

880. Robman007 - June 4, 2013

@ 833. Keachick ..

Yeah, I don’t understand that either. All Kirk did was exactly what Shatner Kirk stated was the reason he was on the bridge..to make a difference. Captain Kirk sure made a difference for the inhabitants of that planet, who are more then likely extinct in the Prime Universe…just showed how arrogant at times the Prime Directive is…something Prime Kirk would show in a hot instant.

I thought it was consistant with Captain Kirk

881. Robman007 - June 4, 2013

@879…I think the issue with McCoy is that he has been replaced with Uhura…Kirk and Spock was always the big “bromance” of the original show and films, but McCoy and an intregral part of that friendship and often the three of them were central to many of a TOS plot…just annoying seeing him get replaced with Uhura. Hopefully that will change in the next film or even the new comics.

882. Robman007 - June 4, 2013

31 Years for Wrath! Wow. Love that film

Kinda funny how some folks, not just on this site, who bash the new films as a “slap in the face to Roddenberry” list Wrath as their favorite film without remembering that Gene made his dislike well known of Treks 2, 3, portions of 4, 5 and 6…just funny how that works..

883. NuFan - June 4, 2013

How many times is Shilliam Watner going to announce he’s leaving this site?

What a flamboyant drama queen.

884. rocketscientist - June 4, 2013

Well, I finally saw the film last night. It’s the third film I’ve seen in the last 2 years (since my twins were born), so it was kind of special for my wife and me.

I loved it! I thought STID was a great ST film. The actors were great, the story was well-thought out and executed, and the production looked great.

There were so many things I loved about the film. Bruce Greenwood’s scenes with Chris Pine were just great. When he tells her that “it’s going to be ok, son,” and Kirk’s reaction to his death, well, it’s just incredibly moving. Pike really was a father figure to Kirk. Clearly, over the course the last few years the two really bonded. I also LOVED seeing Nimoy again. I was hoping he’d be in STID. Yeah, it was a cameo, but it was a dang good one and served a purpose. The way Nu-Spock and Spock-Prime interacted, addressing each other as “Mr. Spock,” brought a smile to my face. It sounded like they were good friends, like Nu-Spock had taken Spock-Prime up on his offer to be something of a mentor to him. That makes sense. Spock-Prime has resolved his internal human-Vulcan struggle, which Nu-Spock is still dealing with. Add on to that the trauma that both of them are still dealing with wrt the loss of Vulcan. Anyway, whoever was responsible, Orci, Kurtzmann, Abrams, thanks so much for Nimoy’s appearance. I hope he’s in the next one as well.

I thought the reversed role death scene between Kirk and Spock was inspired. It’s not a rip off of TWOK, if anything, it’s an outright homage to that classic film. It really is the moment where the Kirk and Spock friendship begins, culminating in Spock, this time, screaming Khaaannnnn!!! (Zach Quinto did a good job, but sorry, no one will ever equal Shatner’s immortal “KHAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNN!!” Seeing Spock lose it and go after Cumberbatch just made so much sense. Spock’s emotions, which he’d been repressing so much after Vulcan was destroyed, just roared back. It made sense.

Pine and Urban were both again great as Kirk and McCoy. This time, though, with STID, Quinto’s Spock worked even better for me. I don’t know what it was, last time with ST09, but for some reason, his Spock didn’t work as well as Pine’s Kirk or Urban’s McCoy. It’s probably just me and not Quinto’s ST09 performance. I’ve thought about it a bit, and I just think that, for me at least, it was just a lot harder to seperate Nimoy, with his distinctive voice and look, from the Spock character. I don’t think it had anything to do with Quinto’s performance in ST09, it was my inability to make that leap for that particular character. Anyway, for whatever reason, in STID, his portrayal of Spock really clicked for me this time.

I also enjoyed Pegg’s Scotty. I think he’s doing a good job with the character.

Cumberbatch and Weller did a fine job as the villains of STID. Really, they both brought their A-games. Cumberbatch was definitely a force of nature as Khan and Weller did a great job as Admiral Marcus, the guy who was running Section 31.

Story-wise, I thought the character’s stories and relationships just made sense. Bob Orci, you and your fellow writers got it right.

That said, here are my nitpicks.

1. Once again, we have a problem wrt the time and distance. Shouldn’t it be more than a day to Kronos? (loved the new Klingons ships btw, but I don’t like the helmets, that’s too much of a departure for me). I know the filmakers want to keep things moving, but aren’t their ways to get by this? I mean, it kind of violates their premise, that this is the same galaxy as the original timeline. It should take longer.

2. Transwarp beaming. It was used in ST09 and it’s used here too. If you have transporters that can beam people across the galaxy, why do you need starships. And Khan was able to miniaturize one of them too! Yeah, they definitely used a similar device in TNG and other deux ex machina technobabble in a lot of TNG, DS9, and VOY episodes, but sorry, this transwarp beaming thing is a real problem.

3. Ok, this is the one that made me grit my teeth. No, no, no. The Enterprise would not just start to fall to earth, particularly at that distance, just because it lost power. I know, I have a PhD in aerospace engineering and do orbit transfer planning and design and ascent trajectories for a living (and some propulsion problems too). I have a bigger problem with this than the transwarp beaming, because this is just real physics, not magic ST technology. There was a way here to make this work, say by having a large piece of debris hit the Enterprise to change it’s trajectory, or having an explosion on the ship, just something like that to impart a force on it (it’d have to be big, though). Bob Orci, do you guys have a science advisor? You had that JPL scientist, didn’t you?

4. Like a lot of fans, I’m a little dissapointed that Cumberbatch didn’t bear a closer resemblance to Ricardo Montablan. Cumberbatch was excellent in the film, but after seeing how well (for the most part), the iconic ST roles were cast in the last film, I just don’t understand why they didn’t have him look or sound more like Montablan’s Khan. On a lesser note, why the English accent for Alice Eve’s Carol Marcus? Alice Eve said she could do an American accent, so why didn’t Abrams have her do that? To sum it up, I was kind of bummed and left wondering why a greater effort wasn’t made to get these two actors to at least sound and act like their prime-universe counterparts.

5. This is more of an observation and not really much of a nitpick or a problem. Yes, I really enjoyed STID and ST09 before it, but it’s hard to ignore how different it is from the previous 10 ST films in terms of action and production. Abrams’ two movies had so much more money than all the prior films except for TMP (adjusted for inflation of course) and it shows. Just compare it to NEM, for instance, which had similar sfx technology available but a much lower budget. Now, I realize this is a different time, where the blockbuster films have to have these extremely intricate sfx, graphics, sfx, and action to be marketable to a younger audience that apparently has less patience and a shorter attention span. I’m really sorry if I tick any younger folks off, but the reality is with all these new phones, more elaborate video games, and how pervasive the internet is, you just can’t ignore their effects on our culture. It’s commented on and written about all the time.

The problem with having all these elaborate sfx and incredible action sequences is that the character drama can be overwhelmed. That being said, I didn’t think that happened in STID. I think Bob Orci, Alex Kurtzmann, and Damon Lindelof managed to keep the characters’ journeys strong and simultaneously deliver what a summer blockbuster with a $190 million budget requires in terms of action and spectacle. That said, after seeing STID, I was kind of nostalic for those great TOS films, TWOK, TSFS, TVH, TUC, and even the great TNG film FC. Those films only had a small fraction of the budgets of Abrams films (adjusted for inflation). As everyone knows, all the original ST films, with the exception of TMP, had much smaller budgets than other big-budget sf action films, in particular the SW films. Because of that lower budget, imo, they had to rely more on the character drama and the story. The characters, in those better films, couldn’t be overwhelmed by the sfx and the production. It was just impossible. But, by the same token, they couldn’t rely on them either. The story and the actors had to make the movie great. That’s something I’m appreciating more and more due to watching many classic films on TCM. There are so many really great films where the story and perfomances just shine. Like the original ST films and, especially, the original TOS series, they couldn’t rely on the big action set pieces and incredible visual sfx to sell a film.

All that said, I’m a realist. This is what a post 2010 ST film looks like now, under Paramount’s current strategy. This is what they want and what they think sells, and, actually, I think they’re right. It’s kind of sad to say, but after the very poor box-offices of INS and NEM, both of which weren’t good films imo (and the critics and most fans), it’s not surprising that Paramount wants ST to look more like other summer blockbusters. I can’t blame them. This is what sells nowadays.

All that said, with things being as they are, again, I want to say again how much I enjoyed STID. I think it’s a great film and I enjoyed it very much. (Bob Orci, please don’t take my nitpicks and the above criticism personally, I really did love the film). I really want to see one more film, at least, with this cast and these writers. Abrams, Orci, Kurtzmann, Lindelof, and the cast and the crew should all feel very proud at creating such a great ST film.

885. fredereick - June 4, 2013

Concerning this Kirk’s breaking of the PD versus the original’s breaking it, this time was ONLY to save his friend Spock, whereas in TOS, the several times he did it were to correct what he judged to be an abberation and virtual slavery of a society to a computer or some other outside force. Of course, saving the lives of the landing party and that of the ship were bonuses.

That said, this is the journey to get where he was in TOS, and I can understand why he agonized over it in later years. This discipline might make him more careful in the future.

886. Robman007 - June 4, 2013

@ 885. fredereick …

Actually, if you pay attention to Pike, he states that the mission itself was a violation of the prime directive. They were only supposed to monitor the planet, not “change it’s destiny” as Spock put it…

..the icing on the cake for getting Kirk into trouble was exposing the population to the Enterprise.

887. Robman007 - June 4, 2013

correction…”change it’s destiny” as Pike put it. Not Spock. The whole mission itself was a violation of the prime directive. Cold Fusion device and Enterprise exposure wrapped up in one package

888. 'Beach - June 4, 2013

@880 Robman

It can be said that Kirk ‘made a difference’ by his actions throughout his five-year mission and the following movie adventures. In that I agree with you.

That said, I always had a problem with his portrayal in Generations. He seemed completely OOC for the Kirk we had come to know to that point. Going back through 79 episodes and six films, I never once heard him say anything was ‘Fun’, nor did he ever speak about making a difference. That just shows me that Moore/Braga had zero handle on the character.

IMHO, that is.

889. Jovius the Romulan - June 4, 2013

Sadly, yes, the right thing to do would have been to let the volcanic catastrophe happen once their mission of observation was completed. We can see aspects of TOS Kirk already here, where he does not want to sit idly by while an entire civilisation is destroyed. (Though even a volcano of that size could hardly destroy an entire planet in real life — it would have been better if they said it would wipe out that /particular tribe/ of native peoples.)

890. William Bradley - June 4, 2013

… Now you see it. Now you don’t. Now you see it again.

891. William Bradley - June 4, 2013

My new practice is to save anything I write on this site …

892. Phil - June 4, 2013

@889. Well, the chewing out Kirk got about it tends to suggest that not only was it a violation of the Prime Directive, but a rather casual one at that. I’m guessing SF would have some protocol about how they would either intervene in the affairs of primitive planets, or that the PD is absolute. This Kirk does not strike me as an individual who would lose any sleep over deciding on when or when not to get involved. It’s also a bad reflection on Spock, who seemed a willing participant until it came time to fill out his report. Some clarity on what drove the decision making process would have been good here, as it stands it comes across that Kirk was in Caesar mode, and the Nibiru primitives were lucky to get the thumbs up from Kirk that day – any other captain in the fleet, and the volcano blows….

893. Disinvited - June 4, 2013

#890. William Bradley – June 4, 2013

Good to see that it is dawning on you that the rickety nature of this site’s filtering engine, doesn’t justify the assumption that everyone can see everything you’ve committed to it all of the time.

894. William Bradley - June 4, 2013

The “rickety nature of this site’s filtering engine??”

>895. Disinvited – June 4, 2013
#890. William Bradley – June 4, 2013

Good to see that it is dawning on you that the rickety nature of this site’s filtering engine, doesn’t justify the assumption that everyone can see everything you’ve committed to it all of the time.

895. Disinvited - June 4, 2013

#894. William Bradley – June 4, 2013

Yes, it employs a primitive spam block and obscenity filter that behaves most erratically as in how it decides something should be blocked or allowed to pass.

I haven’t tested this lately but for the longest time it could not stand the word “ar(hive” or derivatives of it spelled correctly using the letter “c”, for example.

896. William Bradley - June 4, 2013

That mumbo jumbo sounds like an explanation for some recent plot points …

897. dmduncan - June 4, 2013

Bummed that Pike is dead. Or is he? See, Pike’s body may have been cvryogenically stored. In which case a dab of Khan’s blood and a pinch of derring do might get Pike back on his feet again.

Or with Marcus and Section 31 secret projects in the picture, can Genesis be far behind?

So in #3 Genesis is introduced and used to reform Talos IV. To mark the success of the project the entire star group is renamed, as is the planet, so we don’t know yet that’s what the planet is.

The planet then becomes New Vulcan.

We learn that Pike had no living family, and his body is ceremoniously interred on New Vulcan/Talos IV.

The discover the planet is inhavbited by the big headed masters of illusion, while Vulcans have moved aboard, and the planet begins to gorew unstable.

With the instability, Pike is also resurrected, and Spock still has his memories from the mind meld in STID.

So now the Enterprise is fighiting Talosians, planet instability, and a disappearing oportunity to restore Pike.

Scotty discovers what was wrong with the genesis device that creates the instability and, working with Marcus, THINKS they can adjust the device and REuse it to correct the instability while leaving everything else unchanged.

Since everyone is stuck on New Vulcan/Talos IV, there is no other option, and even the Talosians relent and permit the only chance they have to survive.

It works!

Pike is restored. The planet is saved. The Talosians and Vulcans are going to make interesting co-inhabitants of New Vulcan.

898. dmduncan - June 4, 2013

I know what you’re thinking: Spock Prime.

He’s really in the way at this point. He needs to be given something else to do. Like…send him to a galaxy far far away.

But Spock’s destiny is material for an IDW series.

899. Robman007 - June 4, 2013

@ 888. ‘Beach …

Totally agree. The Jim Kirk in Generations was not the Jim Kirk from 6 films and 3 seasons of episodes…but I did like the line of making a difference. Kirk and his crew did that alot

900. William Bradley - June 4, 2013

882 I haven’t noticed that here. Most knowledgeable Trek fans know that Star Trek was a collaborative effort from the beginning, even in the Original Series days, when many of the most famous episodes were written by people other than Roddenberry.

I’ve certainly pointed out that Roddenberry’s pilot was rejected by NBC and it was only because of the pilot written by Sam Peeples (who tutored Roddenberry in scifi literature), Where No Man Has Gone Before, that we have Star Trek today.

That pilot, which launched Star Trek, has the elements we’ve come to know — Shatner as the action-oriented but intellectual Captain Kirk, Spock the coldly analytical Vulcan first officer, a lot of action in the action-adventure (The Cage was too cerebral and inert), the exploration part of Starfleet, etc.

Roddenberry, incidentally, also wrote a second pilot, but NBC and Desilu liked the Peeples pilot better. The Roddenberry second pilot was made in the second season of TOS as The Omega Glory. It has a lot more action than The Cage, too, but is fairly corny.

>882. Robman007 – June 4, 2013
31 Years for Wrath! Wow. Love that film

Kinda funny how some folks, not just on this site, who bash the new films as a “slap in the face to Roddenberry” list Wrath as their favorite film without remembering that Gene made his dislike well known of Treks 2, 3, portions of 4, 5 and 6…just funny how that works..

901. dmduncan - June 4, 2013

A Talos IV/Genesis mashup lets you address another issue.

Talos IV is Washington DC. And what happens when your world is falling apart while the masters of spin create false realities for you to live in? What happens when reality is one thing, and the those who think reality is whatever they say it is provide false feedback to the senses so that it is impossible for you to respond to what’s going on in the real world beyond their illusions, just so they can control you?

902. bmar - June 4, 2013

So.

Movie’s out. Reviews in. Spoilers revealed. Khan frozen. Seems like we’re all done here for a couple of years, huh?

Last call?

903. Karen - June 4, 2013

2892 Phil

What I think got lost in the pacing is that Spock was fine blurring the PD line (but not crossing it by revealing their presence) because of what happened to Vulcan. Because he lived through, and is still dealing with, the destruction of his home world he has undergone a profound shift in attitude.

I’m guessing, by his tone of utter disbelief in the transporter room, that he signed on for the mission but stated in no uncertain terms, out loud, to Kirk, that he would not countenance any plan that had them showing themselves to the natives. And Kirk, being Kirk, madly handwaving and saying sure, sure, no, of course we won’t. I get it. I promise.

And of course that promise went out the window when it became a choice between protecting the PD and letting Spock die. But Spock, being Spock, can’t even begin to understand the concept of a ‘what they don’t know won’t hurt anyone’ approach to report filing. Which is where Kirk was coming from. For him, the end justified the means and nobody got hurt so hey, it’s all good.

904. Trekman93 - June 4, 2013

Why didn’t Spock put Kirk in the brig in the 2009 movie? Like what they did when they captured in Khan in Into Darkness.

905. dmduncan - June 4, 2013

No, no, no, they’re supposed to be the same PEOPLE regardless of the things that happened to them in the new timeline.

Catering to the fangirl love of Spuhura is destroying Spock’s character.

Now he’s vacillating between cold logic/not understanding human behavior, to being an emotional basket case who you’d better not get angry at you.

Where’s the Spock who expressed shame at experiencing mere FRIENDSHIP for James Kirk? Where’s the Spock who considered it an insult to be thought of as human? The destruction of Vulcan was last year in the new timeline, and for a coldly logical Vulcan that’s an eternity.

The destruction-of-Vulcan cow has been milked dry. You can’t keep chasing that one around the field with your bucket.

906. Once A Teacher, Always a Teacher - June 4, 2013

I really was not going to post in these threads although I am a ST fan. However, the misinterpretation of feminism by posters on this board has finally hit the tipping point with me. Women objecting to the gender-bound roles that females are given in mainstream cinema is not rude, malicious, or silly. It is a reasonable position that argues against a very limiting representation of women.

If there were numerous roles where women characters were heroic in the way so many male film protagonists are, well, no one would object to a girlfriend role. However, when the majority of roles for women in mainstream cinema place them in GF or wifely support roles, that is a problem. Women are leaders in the real world, but the fantasy world of Hollywood still panders to male fantasies. (And yes, I realize that many men roll their eyes at the retrogressive sexism of US film (you go, guys) but the fact remains that the US film industry, women characters get little of the same narrative weight as do males. There is a saying that sums up this situation: men act, women appear. That’s what goes on in Star Trek by and large. Uhura gets a bit of a scene here and there but most of her scenes are girlfriend scenes. Carol Marcus? Gratuitous undies scene – seriously idiotic writing. And no, her scene is not the same as the bedroom scene of Kirk’s early in the film. The lighting, camera framing and length of the shot in which each actor appears is very different. Marcus “strikes a pose” that would not be out of place in a Victoria’s Secret ad while Kirk does not. There are many other differences in the narrative and visual logics of those shots too. However the cultural context of male and female bodies also needs to be considered here. Men’s bodies have traditionally not been objectified in western culture the way women’s have. I’m sure the non feminists here will bring up the few exceptions to “Prove” that I am wrong, but you know what? I’m not wrong. A guy can walk down the street dressed only in a pair of shorts and get ignored. A woman in a pair of shorts and a tee shirt gets hassled. This is not just individual rudeness but a culturally systemic way of perceiving men and women in public space.

And as for the poster who said that women who object to sexist representations of women in film were rude or something, you are just echoing the words of men who want to silence women for objecting to the way that we get shortchanged in cultural productions like movies, games etc. (Television especially cable channels, have been notably better venues for interesting women characters).

FInal words: I want to thank the women and men on this board, and in my life, who speak out against sexism, racism and homophobia in its many forms.

For those interested in some hard figures that deal with women in front of and behind the camera – check out http://womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/.

907. Aurore - June 4, 2013

@ 783.

…But, seriously, I thought again about what you said, earlier :

“….Still, I feel there’s something else we’re not being told … or is that merely the foolish hope that springs from the well of disappointment bubbling deep within us?”

_________

It might be the foolish hope that springs from the well of disappointement bubbling deep within you.

No offense.

I believe I felt something similar to what you described after watching Star Trek : Generations ( I watched that movie around the year 2000 ). I thought about Kirk’s demise for days, trying to make sense of it all. Hoping that someday I would understand why he had to “disappear” (“twice”) in that film.

I could not believe Captain Kirk was no more.

908. P Technobabble - June 4, 2013

900. William
Good point about Roddenberry’s attitude towards movies that made Trek a legitimate film franchise without his help, or consent. He most likely would not be digging the “reinvention” of his baby anymore today than yesterday. Even though he used to say he looked forward to other people making Star Trek I don’t think he ever really meant it.

909. Mooseday - June 4, 2013

Saw in the same cinema as trek 2 with my dad and daughter. They loved it. I was underwhelmed. Saw it again back in the US with a friend and found it way better. Once you stop looking for issues and just sit back its a great film. And frankly up until Kronos it’s probably the best trek I’ve seen on the big screen. That fade between the sand and the enterprise was wonderful.

910. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 4, 2013

#858 – “until I saw her act like a fool and question his feelings in the middle of a very serious mission and in front of their boss. WTF?. Uhura is no fool and she should have known better. Spock cares, but he is VULCAN, he tries his best to be as unemotional as possible by nature. And you know what? He’s a Starfleet commander, his first priority is to his job..”

How many times does this scene need to be explained? First of all, Spock is NOT Vulcan. He is part Vulcan and more importantly, he is a younger Spock in an alternate universe. At first Kirk was a bit miffed at Uhura discussing what appeared to be a private tiff in front of him, until he realized that it was not just her going all emo. Go back to the lift scene, where Kirk was also wondering what was going on with Spock. He even wondered if it was his own imaginings. Uhura confirmed that it was NOT, by saying, “No, it is not you.”

I thought that a discussion between the three of them, the most concerned, in the privacy of shuttlecraft, where they presumably had a little time, was good, sensible, correct.

#906 – “And as for the poster who said that women who object to sexist representations of women in film were rude or something, you are just echoing the words of men who want to silence women for objecting to the way”

I was the one who wrote those words, because that is how I, me, Keachick, Rosemary, female, perceived and interpreted what I had been seeing here over a few months. I certainly don’t need or want anyone, male or female, to tell me what to “echo”.

“A guy can walk down the street dressed only in a pair of shorts and get ignored. A woman in a pair of shorts and a tee shirt gets hassled.”

Where do you live? Over this past summer (I live in NZ), I often went to the beach, malls etc and lots of younger and older males and females were wearing shorts, tee shirts and jandals and I was not aware of anyone at all being hassled because of what they wore or because of their sex. I am sure it can go on, but it is not as systematic here as you suggest. And yes, I have seen men wearing nothing but (swim)shorts and yes, I do look, especially if he is nice looking then move along…I guess it is just something human beings do. It is normal and healthy to “check” one another out. It is more a case of how long you do it for and what you do next that really matters.

Neither me, my daughter or sons were hassled in any way, nor did I see anyone else hassled.

I do NOT like discrimination in any form.

911. Mel - June 4, 2013

German viewer numbers:

9. – 12. May
1. Star Trek Into Darkness: 446.915
2. Iron Man 3: 379.467
3. Hanni & Nanni: 201.173
4. Scary Movie 5: 119.875
5. The Croods: 74.641

16. – 19. May
1. The Great Gatsby: 262.930
2. Star Trek Into Darkness: 246.776
3. Evil Dead: 235.798
4. Iron Man 3: 181.287
5. Epic: 164.475

23. – 26. May
1. Fast & Furious 6: 802.164
2. Epic: 197.760
3. The Great Gatsby: 194.230
4. Star Trek Into Darkness: 131.582
5. Hanni & Nanni: 104.549

30. May – 2. June
1. Hangover 3: 1.272.619
2. Fast & Furious 6: 583.037
3. Epic: 231.483
4. The Great Gatsby: 179.861
5. Hanni & Nanni: 106.704
6. Star Trek Into Darkness: 106.513

Until the last Sunday Star Trek was seen by 1.348.112 viewers in Germany. So it has done better than the last two Star Trek movies now.

Nemesis
viewers: 1.274.837

Star Trek 2009
viewers: 1.272.813

Top 10 opening weekends of 2013

1.272.619: Hangover 3
802.164: Fast & Furious 6
749.735: Django Unchained
527.325: Die Hard 5
516.347: Iron Man 3
514.707: Kokowääh 2
457.374: Schlussmacher
446.915: Star Trek Into Darkness
360.916: Hansel and Gretel: Witch Hunters
356.978: The Croods

912. Trekkiegal63 - June 4, 2013

#906. Once A Teacher, Always a Teacher:

What a brilliant post! Well said! You’ve said everything I’ve been trying to say for months, but far more eloquently than I’ve managed. Thank you for that! I’m so grateful you posted, and I hope to see you post more. :)

Also, thank you for the link, I look forward to delving into their research section! :)

913. William Bradley - June 4, 2013

Thanks, P Technobabble. I have a mixed view of Roddenberry. He had a great vision, which was absolutely essential, but key elements of it were very flawed. I literally fell asleep during the first Trek movie — I’d been working hard, but still … :) — and TNG didn’t get good until after it was mostly out of his hands. His version of Trek could be overly ponderous, as in the first pilot.

The choice, I think, really isn’t between thoughtfulness and action. It has to be both, blended in different ways at different times. At its best in TOS, it certainly was.

One of the things I love best about ST09 is its tremendous verve and energy, which overcame a few plot holes. It’s one of my three favorite Trek films, the others being First Contact and Wrath of Khan, and actually was my favorite movie of all in 2009.

>908. P Technobabble – June 4, 2013
900. William
Good point about Roddenberry’s attitude towards movies that made Trek a legitimate film franchise without his help, or consent. He most likely would not be digging the “reinvention” of his baby anymore today than yesterday. Even though he used to say he looked forward to other people making Star Trek I don’t think he ever really meant it.

914. William Bradley - June 4, 2013

904 … Er, well, because Kirk had to end up totally by chance on the planet Delta Vega — which in the Star Trek pilot Where No Man Has Gone Before is near the edge of the galaxy but here is right next to Vulcan — so that he could hook up with not only Spock Prime but also Scotty.

This is something that has nagged at me about ST09, even the first time I saw the movie, when I was quite enthralled. Suspension of disbelief is nearly always a factor in movies and TV. For me, if the hook at the beginning is strong enough — and ST09 had one of the greatest beginnings I’ve seen in a genre film — and I don’t get the feeling that there is an attempt to insult my intelligence in general, a lot of lesser issues like the multi-coincidences of Delta Vega can easily slide.

>904. Trekman93 – June 4, 2013
Why didn’t Spock put Kirk in the brig in the 2009 movie? Like what they did when they captured in Khan in Into Darkness.

915. Karen - June 4, 2013

@906 Once a Teacher

You totally rock.

916. Phobos in Montreal - June 4, 2013

Just came back (yes again) frmo the IMAX. Get this.. the place was sold out except for the very front 2 rows which nobody ever wants.

There were more people tonight at 7h05 than on STID’s opening first weekend. I couldn’t believe it. The 22h hall is 85% pre-reserved which means it will be practically sold out once people who buy tickets at the door finish arriving.

Of course Tuesday’s lower price has something to do with it but last Tuesday I was there and there weren’t as many people. Could just be a flook, or it could be that STID has struck a chord with just Montrealers, but my guess is that the word of mouth is starting to have an effect. The movie appears to have legs.

Awesome movie. I am still not tired of it. I learn and see new things everytime I go. This is unfortunately perhaps the last few days of IMAX for STID. *crossing fingers for 1 more weekend* before Man of Steel replaces it.

917. Charles Trotter - June 4, 2013

820. Keachick

“I actually wrote here, from the very start, is that this Harrison/Khan is not the same Khan that we met in Space Seed/TWOK. That Khan is still in one of the cryotubes…”

That would defeat the purpose of including Khan in the film at all.

“Isn’t that right, Bob, Alex, Damon? – Not that anyone of you will tell…;)”

Of course they’re not gonna say that; it’s inaccurate and it was not their intention for him to be anyone other than Khan Noonien Singh.

“Now, please, everyone – let it go!!!”

No. :)

Personally, I think Curious Cadet’s explanation in post 744 is the best one and I hope Bob & Alex end up using it (or something very close to it) for the Harrison comic. CC’s explanation is logical and is supported by the events of the ENTERPRISE episodes “Affliction” and “Divergence.” It’s much better (and much more likely) than the alternatives (i.e., cosmetic surgery, shape-shifting, not being the real Khan, etc.).

918. Phobos in Montreal - June 4, 2013

When Man of Steel goes to IMAX, they should dump Will Smith’s movie off of UltraAVX and put STID on UltraAVX instead. Not as good as IMAX but pretty damn close.

919. BringBackKirkPrime - June 4, 2013

Has anyone heard about Spock Prime being a Jedi in the next Star Wars movie?

920. dmduncan - June 4, 2013

Here’s my explanation for why Khan looks different:

Khan was bitten by a Brit, and now, when the moon is full, he turns into one.

It’s as plausible as anything else I’ve read.

921. Phobos in Montreal - June 4, 2013

@920
Cumberbatch was a fantastic choice to play Khan.
No joke, when he talks in the movie, the entire theatre is riveted. You can can hear a pin drop and no one dares even chew a piece of popcorn or sip their soda. If someone crunches a loud taco, that’s it, they are escorted out. lol

He is THAT good.

922. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 4, 2013

#917 – “it’s inaccurate and it was not their intention for him to be anyone other than Khan Noonien Singh.”

I have not read anywhere where any of the writers actually stated their intention was for Cumberbatch to play (TOS) Khan Noonien Singh. You have assumed that from the scene where Harrison said his name was Khan and because prime Spock spoke about the Khan he knew from his own timeline.

923. Curious Cadet - June 4, 2013

@916. Phobos in Montreal,
“The movie appears to have legs.”

At this point it’s going to have to have longer legs than ST09 which ran for a leggy 21 weeks to equal or surpass it. Domestically, STID is now running about $10 million dollars behind where ST09 was in week 19, which puts it in about the same place as ST09 was in week four of its run for daily earnings. If it continues to fall off at the same rate from this point, then it’s unlikely to run as long as ST09 or close that $10 million dollar gap, which means the best it could do is about $247 million, which is still good. Fortunately, the international box office seems poised to more than make up for it while setting its own new records, so there’s still a good chance foreign could carry it to $500 million.

Does anyone remember how confident Paramount was before ST09 opened? They announced the deal for the sequel 5 weeks before the movie opened. One would think that given the strong international numbers and only slightly weaker domestic numbers, that Paramount would have already demonstrated its confidence in the franchise by announcing a deal for a third film.

924. Mel - June 4, 2013

A third Star Trek movie is a sure thing. What happens after that is unclear. Another movie? Same actors or new ones? Or nothing for a while? What about a new TV series?

925. Phobos in Montreal - June 4, 2013

@923
Monday’s $1,632,233 was pretty sucky. But if what I saw last night is any indication of what happened throughout Canada and the US, we might be surprised by Tuesday’s take. It has to beat last Tuesday for sure.

Just a wild guess, I think June 4th will come in above $4m. Tue May28 was $3,438,458.

926. Phobos in Montreal - June 4, 2013

I have to say Bruce Greenwood is a good actor. His Pike role was very well done. He definitely added a lot to the movie. Shame he is dead.

927. Charles Trotter - June 4, 2013

925. Phobos in Montreal

“Just a wild guess, I think June 4th will come in above $4m. Tue May28 was $3,438,458.”

I’m afraid you’re going to be very disappointed. It is rare for a film to earn more in one day than it did on the same day the previous week. This usually only happens if the more recent day is a holiday (which it’s not) or if the theater count increases (it will be staying the same until Friday).

Now, STID *could* earn a bit more on Tuesday than it did on Monday, perhaps around $1.9m or maybe even as much as $2.5m, but I don’t see how it could earn *more* this Tuesday than it did last Tuesday. I’ve followed box office numbers for years and I can’t recall ever seeing this happen on non-holidays.

Sorry. :-(

928. Charles Trotter - June 4, 2013

“Does anyone remember how confident Paramount was before ST09 opened? They announced the deal for the sequel 5 weeks before the movie opened. One would think that given the strong international numbers and only slightly weaker domestic numbers, that Paramount would have already demonstrated its confidence in the franchise by announcing a deal for a third film.”

They’re probably waiting for the film to recoup its production and marketing costs, which could still be a ways away. I’m sure they’re also disappointed that the domestic take is behind that of Trek ’09.

Also remember that, even though they announced a deal for the sequel weeks before the first film’s release, everybody’s schedules caused the film to be delayed by a whole year. Paramount will probably want the gap between this one and the third one to be shorter, so they may be trying to organize things to make that possible before announcing a deal.

And let’s not forget that there’s a good chance that Abrams won’t be available to direct the next one. Paramount is probably exploring options for possible replacements, which also could be delaying things a bit.

I’m sure they’ll announce a deal for a third film in the coming weeks. They just have a few things to figure out first.

929. Charles Trotter - June 5, 2013

922. Keachick

“I have not read anywhere where any of the writers actually stated their intention was for Cumberbatch to play (TOS) Khan Noonien Singh. You have assumed that from the scene where Harrison said his name was Khan and because prime Spock spoke about the Khan he knew from his own timeline.”

Damon Lindelof wanted the villain to be Khan (*the* Khan, not *a* Khan or someone claiming to be Khan) and Bob & Alex ultimately agreed to make him Khan. Both Bob and Damon have already stated this in various interviews in which they discuss “tackling Khan” and their decision to make Khan the villain (do a Google search for Damon and/or Bob talking Khan, spoilers, etc.). They included the *character* of Khan, not the *indication* of Khan, because Lindelof and many of the fans wanted Khan. How many Khans do you know in the ‘Star Trek’ universe?

Sure, in *canon* there is (currently) nothing to prevent one from assuming it’s another Khan or that he’s lying. But do you honestly think they put Khan in the movie (and a load of references to ‘The Wrath of Khan’) *without* intending for him to be *the* Khan? Why try to keep the character’s identity a secret if he wasn’t *the* Khan? Why else would they have tried to cast Latino and Indian actors in the role before going with Cumberbatch? The answer, of course, is that he is *the* Khan Noonien Singh.

930. Aurore - June 5, 2013

” Why try to keep the character’s identity a secret if he wasn’t *the* Khan? Why else would they have tried to cast Latino and Indian actors in the role before going with Cumberbatch?”
__________

Did they really tried to cast Indian actors, at some point?

From the start, I wondered if Indian actors really had an opportunity to, at the very least, compete for that role. Were they given a chance?

“…I would ask however that there is a consideration that my argument was never that a Hispanic actor (in deference to Ricardo Montalban) or an Indian actor (in deference to the generally held, and likely, assumption that because Khan is a Sikh, he is from India) should not be given the role. In fact, it appears that many actors of these backgrounds were tested for the role, whether it be Khan or not.”*

This is what John Tenuto said on the question, once.
I hope to know more about this very point one day…if possible.

*(Post 573)

http://trekmovie.com/2012/12/12/tenutoblog-making-the-case-for-identifying-the-star-trek-into-darkness-villain/

931. Aurore - June 5, 2013

Correction. 930.

Did they really try to cast Indian actors, at some point?

932. Unwanted - June 5, 2013

@928. Since Paramount has already announced a sequel to Hansel and Gretel: Witch Hunters based entirely off it’s international take (cause it bombed in the US, I enjoyed it though, but I’m weird), there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they will announce the sequel soon.

Hansel and Gretel cost 50 million to make, only made 55 million in the US, but made 170 million overseas, so yes we are talking about a cheaper movie, but STID still has several more countries to open in and it is already doing better internationally than the last film, topping the international grosses of ST09 by 20 million already, and like I mentioned there are several more countries yet to see the movie.

I think some people just like to create drama.

933. Mad Mann - June 5, 2013

RE: New story/villain/character in next movie.

To those that *want* a newly created villain in the next movie: huh? I look at it like this: Would you make a Superman or Batman movie with a newly created villain? Maybe with some new secondary characters, but the main villains in those movies were always based on pre-existing characters (with some minor exceptions: Nuclear Man?)

We have 79 episodes of Star Trek characters to pull from, that’s a big pool of great characters to pull from. Not only that, but Paramount would need more assurance with the next one, meaning more recognition.

Another point: look at the two (arguably) best Star Trek films: TWOK and First Contact. Both of those movies are based on pre-existing episodes and characters (Space Seed and Best of Both Worlds). Now look at the worst Trek movies: TFF, Insurrection, and Nemesis. All three had brand new characters and concepts and, in the case of Insurrection, a new alien race. All three sucked and bombed in the box office.

My point is: Star Trek movies seem to perform better when based on old episodes and characters and do poorly both critically and financially when based on new concepts.

Based on that, why would you want something new?

934. 'Beach - June 5, 2013

@ Mad Mann

“…My point is: Star Trek movies seem to perform better when based on old episodes and characters and do poorly both critically and financially when based on new concepts.

I disagree. Yes, TWOK was based on Space Seed but ST III and IV were original concepts that performed just fine. Kruge in ST III was a new villain for this particular piece.

935. Aurore - June 5, 2013

“…Now look at the worst Trek movies: TFF, Insurrection, and Nemesis. All three had brand new characters and concepts and, in the case of Insurrection, a new alien race. All three sucked and bombed in the box office.”
_________

Affter a rather promising start , Nero failed to “scare” me, however, the movie he appeared in was not too bad. In my opinion.

“Based on that, why would you want something new?”

Based on what Bryan Burk, speaking to MTV, said months ago:

“There are amazing villains throughout the Star Trek universe, as well as new villains as we did in the last film….”

A well-written brand new villain to the canon seemed like a possibility to me, then.

Of course, there also was the last part of his statement :

“…There are a lot of directions we can go in the film and in this particular case we chose to do something that would be original and unique and different and again on paper I think we made the right choice.”*

I was curious to know what he meant.

Now that I do, my expectations for a next installment will be… “reasonable”…

:)

*
http://trekmovie.com/2012/05/10/orci-star-trek-sequel-is-not-remake/

936. Gary - June 5, 2013

Here’s an idea. Lets get back to basics. The original series used actual science fiction writers to create stories. How about we try that again?

937. Other Guy - June 5, 2013

930. Aurore

”Why try to keep the character’s identity a secret if he wasn’t *the* Khan? Why else would they have tried to cast Latino and Indian actors in the role before going with Cumberbatch?”

That was answered long ago by those (who will not be named) that do not post anymore because of the let down that was STID.

Get a science fiction writer. Indeed.

938. SoonerDave - June 5, 2013

Here’s a point everyone seems to be missing:

Writing Trek for the movies is fundamentally different from writing Trek for TV.

Movies have to be stories about the biggest, baddest things to happen to its characters. Episodic television necessarily can’t be that. So it shouldn’t come as a surprise at all that a common theme among Trek movies reviews was that it “played like an extended TV episode.”

No one cared about the Baku in Insurrection, but at least the idea (if not the execution) was very much a Trek notion of meeting new civilizations. No one really bought into the notion of the Secret Hated Twin Clone Really Bald Brother of Picard in Nemesis. And we all kinda retch just a bit at the Secret Unknown Desperately In Need of a Haircut Brother of Spock in Sybok in the execrable Final Frontier.

Problem is you can’t do a “Trouble with Tribbles” TV episode as a movie. It requires the viewer to be woven into the universe going in.

TMP desperately tried to do this “most important thing in their lives” business with Spock and his Kolinahr, Kirk and his midlife crisis, even Decker going for the Bald Electronic Light Woman. Even though the movie was ponderous, and an outrageous repeat of a TOS episode (and that blame lies squarely at Roddenberry’s feet), it tried to mesh the epic movie feel with an episodic TV show concept. It only marginally worked.

That’s the trouble for any Rebootiverse Trek going forward: How do you create an interesting dramatic antagonist without translating him or her to Just Another Big Bad Villain?

How, indeed?

939. Aurore - June 5, 2013

“….That was answered long ago by those (who will not be named) that do not post anymore because of the let down that was STID.”
__________

@ 930, the question I asked was ; “Did they really try to cast Indian actors, at some point?”. I was referring to what had been written previously, @ 929.

So, I do not understand your reply ( @ 937 ).

…Unless, of course, you were engaging in…”performance art “…

:)

940. Charla - June 5, 2013

Seen the movie again, and enjoyed it even more- already have my pre-order for the Blu-ray and game. I plan on seeing it at least one more time in the theaters. I don’t understand why it isn’t kicking more butt than it is. That is the most disappointing aspect of all this to me. It deserves better than what it’s getting.

Thanks Mike Johnson for taking the time to explain some parts of the movie as well!!

If you see this, I was wondering if you and the other writers of the comics ever chat with Bob, Damon or Alex to kind of synchronize the comic books with the movies?

Or if Bob sees this, do you consider the comics as part of your ideas as well? Sorry if this has been addressed before….I am officially hooked and plan on reading the comics now that I am on break from school. I have a lot of catching up to do. :)

941. Curious Cadet - June 5, 2013

@932. Unwanted,
“so yes we are talking about a cheaper movie, but STID still has several more countries to open in and it is already doing better internationally than the last film …I think some people just like to create drama.”

Yeah, Paramount seems to like creating drama. Arguably one of the biggest marketing pushes ST09 got was the announcement by Paramount as they were so confident of Trek, that they were already making deals for the sequel before it even opened.

While the domestic box office is a little disappointing, hardly a bomb, we all know there will be a third movie based on just the strong international numbers. So why not capitalize on that by announcing their support now, when it might have some marketing effect at he box office while Trek is still in its prime earnings window? They don’t need to know who will direct, since Abrams had not agreed to direct STID when the initial deal was announced.

And I don’t expect them to drop the budget by much at all, if any. If the international numbers pan out, then they only need to figure out what needs to be adjusted in the domestic formula. At this point, they are primed to increase the overall take worldwide in the next film. Arbitrarily reducing the budget is not going to help them do that (though I don’t necessarily see them increasing it), as the budget is not set until there’s a script. The budget could be less merely because the next script doesn’t require as much, or it could be more if the producers can justify and excite the studio to approve it — like a major international star name.

942. Mad Mann - June 5, 2013

@ 941 Curious Cadet.

Well, I kinda hope they do cut the budget some. There was some waste of budget on screen for STiD. For example: the entire Spock-Khan chase/fight scene at the end was totally unneeded and stupid. Why couldn’t they just beam up Khan?? If they can beam up a falling Kirk and Sulu from the last movie, and Spock out of the moving jellyfish ship, then there was no reason why they couldn’t beam up a running Khan.

That entire sequence also threw off the pacing of the movie after that dramatic death scene. IT was just stupid and a BIG waste of money. With a much smaller movie a scene like that never would have happened, and the movie would have been the better for it.

943. Toonloon - June 5, 2013

Anyone seen this?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/star-trek-into-darkness-poll/

944. jesustrek - June 5, 2013

Anthony STID is Frist Place in China…

http://twitchfilm.com/2013/06/china-box-office-star-trek-boldly-goes-into-china.html

945. Other Guy - June 5, 2013

939. Aurore

Sorry you did not get the reference, Aurore.

I was referring to some other posts (#125 in the previous thread) concerning the REAL unwritten reasons behind certain Trek casting and the reasons behind the decisions.

946. Aurore - June 5, 2013

“Sorry you did not get the reference, Aurore.etc…”
_____

Don’t be sorry.

“References” to past threads are fine.

But, since that is not what I expected when I asked my question @ 930, I thought it necessary to write what I did @ 939…

Thanks, nonetheless!

:)

947. Curious Cadet - June 5, 2013

@933. Mad Mann,
“To those that *want* a newly created villain in the next movie: huh? I look at it like this: Would you make a Superman or Batman movie with a newly created villain?…My point is: Star Trek movies seem to perform better when based on old episodes and characters and do poorly both critically and financially when based on new concepts. Based on that, why would you want something new?”

Isn’t this rather specious reasoning?

While there’s no denying TWOK and FC were not only critical but two of the highest grossing box office hits, you’re glossing over Trek’s next highest grosses, TSFS, TVH, TUC, and ST09 — all of which had original villains. Indeed, FC had an original villain in the Borg Queen, although the Borg were then a well known ‘race’ like the Klingons had been to TOS. Then there’s TMP which was based on a canon villain and TOS episode, while arguably the highest grossing Trek film of all time, it was one of the worst received. Then there’s the current offering, STID with a canon villain, which is not doing as well domestically as ST09.

There are many other factors here, such as story, directing, and marketing to name but a few. Moreover, Trek’s box office success has little to do with the identity of the villain. It relies on mass appeal to general audiences, many of whom have a built-in aversion to Star Trek. So the things that exite them are the same that excite any audience — action, excitement, intrigue. These people don’t know who the Star Trek villains are. Indeed, Star Trek is not like Batman or Superman at all — it’s not even like Star Wars. Aside from Harry Mudd, TOS NEVER revisited another villain twice. The Klingons are the closet they ever came to that, and no one character was reprised. And the Romulans only had two actual appearances. Even the 1960s Bataman series reprised the major comic book villains numerous times — characters that predates the Star Trek lexicon by decades and were ingrained in popular culture far more widely than Trek ever has, and without the stigma.

And to the extent your theory is true at all, Trek has already blown the best villain they had: Khan. It’s not like the general public knows who Trelane, or Garth, or Rojan, et al are …

Actually bringing up Star Wars as a model, I’d say Abrams already blew it. The Klingons are the ‘Empire’ in this universe. They needed to create a Darth Vader character and make him Kirk’s nemesis in much the same way Kor could have been in TOS. Then put them in conflict with each other over a three movie arc. The promise of the Klingons has always been diluted in my opinion by first never repeating any as a major villain in TOS, and then reducing them to an ally in TNG. Considering Abrams’ love of Star Wars, it’s actually surprising they never developed this angle — instead of a pointless goal of Nero, blow up Qu’onoS, send a Klingon back who REALIZES the opportunity is accident has afforded him. This villain goes to take over the Klingon Empire to become its Hitler. By then capturing Prime Spock and using the red matter to destroy Vulcan and Earth, his defeat by Kirk leads to ‘The Klingons Strike Back’ and then ‘Return of the Vulcans’.

So if they are going to focus on any aspect of TOS for the next movie, it should be to develop the Klingons for future movies. Otherwise, I just don’t buy that the coincidence that some of the higher grossing and highest rated movies is directly related to the familiarity of their villains from canon.

948. William Bradley - June 5, 2013

Maybe it’s time to stop strip-mining the past.

The new JJ Abrams project: A mini-series based on Twilight Zone creator Rod Serling’s last unproduced screenplay.

949. Phil - June 5, 2013

I could probably just cut and paste objections from the Khan debate a couple of years ago…

In this new universe, with unlimited possibilities for storytelling, can we please avoid just dusting off an old one? Is a fresh story just to much to ask for?

950. Curious Cadet - June 5, 2013

So if you’re not going to feature the Klingons, an instrumental and iconic element of the Star Trek universe, then I say bring on the original antagonist — preferably not a villain with a giant ship and no other purpose than to destroy the Earth.

In fact, you know what would have been better than Khan? Harrison as a highly trained double-agent trying to stop Marcus from starting a war with the Klingons, working with them and bringing Kirk into direct conflict with a Klingon villain who becomes Kirk’s nemesis. I’d have been much happier if Spock had yelled out “Kaaaaaaaaang!”

951. Aurore - June 5, 2013

To be clear, regarding the question I asked @ 930, what I meant is that, hopefully someday, someone in a position to answer it will do so…if possible.

(As far as references to past threads are concerned, I can find them myself…most of the time…in the present case, I am much more interested in answers supported by verifiable facts) .

:)

952. Ahmed - June 5, 2013

Guys check this interview with Damon Lindelof about star Trek 13.

In the interview, he is talking about the possibility of using Khan AGAIN !!!

As for crossover with the prime time, the guy wants to bring the Borg back & even Q. I don’t a problem with that idea, we seen the Borg on the big screen only once & I think there is room for them in the new timeline.

oh and it looks like the third movie will be an all out war with the Klingons as was reported before.

I like the idea of the Borg but please don’t use Khan again unless they can come up with a really good tight story.

And no more Damon Lindelof, please.

http://www.blastr.com/2013-6-5/lindelof-teases-trek-3-villains-and-potential-crossover-original-timeline

953. Aurore - June 5, 2013

“In the interview, he is talking about the possibility of using Khan AGAIN !!!”
______

Yes, he said so days ago…

954. steve - June 5, 2013

949 Phil, apparently it is too much to ask. It’s the ultimate mystery of the Trek franchise. SciFi fans in general seem to enjoy exploring new ideas, but Star Trek fans in particular mostly just want to see the same thing over and over. Unfortunately this time around, JJ’s crew drank the Koolaid and wrote this movie for the Trek fans instead of the mainstream, like they’d done with the previous film. Which is why it’s quickly falling further and further behind ST09′s box office.

If you really want to be depressed, check out Damon Lindelof’s interview at the London premier on heyuguys.co.uk. Here are the ideas he discusses for the next Trek movie:

1. Klingon conflict
2. Return of Khan
3. The Borg
4. Q
5. Baby Picard
6. Crossover with the original timeline which they spent so much effort getting rid of in the last movie.

Seeing that interview did it for me. I now believe the only hope for Trek is a whole new creative crew.

955. David Oakes - June 5, 2013

Damon is a notorious joker. Most of those he is just saying to get a rise out of people. Bob & Alex have said they have no ideas yet.

956. Ahmed - June 5, 2013

@954. steve

That is true, somehow finding something new & fresh is becoming harder with the current writing team, specially Lindelof.

But since we are stuck with them, then I’d rather see the Borg than Khannnnnnn

957. Spock's Bangs - June 5, 2013

Read a good interview with Leonard Nimoy about how he loved the movie. Many here love to hear themselves repeat, over and over, how much they dislike Into Darkness, and that’s fine. I’ll just say I trust Nimoy’s opinion of “what is good Trek” as opposed to the armchair quarterbacks of this site. Yes, there are a few that did not grok the movie, but I really like the film and, more impotantly, so does Leonard Nimoy. I’m good with that. :)

958. Gary - June 5, 2013

Get rid of Lindelof and bring in some real science fiction writers!

959. Phil - June 5, 2013

Well, Bad Robot isn’t going anywhere. At least as far as Trek is concerned, though, I’d expect a bit more oversight from the studio, though…

960. Ahmed - June 5, 2013

@957. Spock’s Bangs

Nimoy agreed to appear in Star Trek V, which is considered by the fans & critics, as the worst Star Trek movie ever. So, we do need to re-think our opinion of STID simply because Nimoy LIKE IT !!

I’ve great respect for Nimoy but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything that he say about any given movie.

961. Robman007 - June 5, 2013

@960…I get what you mean and what @957 meant, but Trek 5 was far different. That was when he was a star, more likely was under some sort of contract to do the film after 4 and probably kept going with it more or less out of keeping the peace with Shatner. Far different from a guy working to make a check and a guy who is retired…although I do see Nimoy as someone who has, based on his past actions, someone who stood up for the integrity of the franchise when others in charge tried to use it.

He did refuse Generations on the basis he didn’t like the story, like Kirk’s death and felt his part was not needed. He was going to quit the franchise after the 1st film because he felt it was just being used as a cash cow and not being respected…either way, his opinion of the film is pretty valid

962. Ahmed - June 5, 2013

@961. Robman007

I just don’t like “Spock’s Bangs” idea in his post which is implying that if a movie star praised a certain movie, then everybody else should follow their lead. That doesn’t make any sense to me.

But her, who am I to argue with ambassador Spock :)

963. Unwanted - June 5, 2013

@941. Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about Hansel and Gretel being made on a lower budget than Star Trek, not the possibility of Paramount reducing the budget for the next Trek.

964. William Bradley - June 5, 2013

Actually, Leonard Nimoy has had an ongoing professional relationship with JJ Abrams/Bad Robot.

You are forgetting his recurring role in Fringe as the nefarious technologist behind so much of the plotting, William Bell.

>961. Robman007 – June 5, 2013
@960…I get what you mean and what @957 meant, but Trek 5 was far different. That was when he was a star, more likely was under some sort of contract to do the film after 4 and probably kept going with it more or less out of keeping the peace with Shatner. Far different from a guy working to make a check and a guy who is retired…

965. Unwanted - June 5, 2013

@954. STID is not falling behind ST09, it might trail a bit domestically, but adding in the international numbers, the movie has passed ST09′s worldwide totals for every week after its release. Check some websites that track Box Office performance, and look at a week by week WORLDWIDE comparison, the numbers are clear.

966. Disinvited - June 5, 2013

#965. Unwanted – June 5, 2013

However, if you are going to stress the worldwide then you will have to sync up the 2013 worldwide opening which happened a earlier to 2009′s opening and then you get an interesting picture that doesn’t wholly support the picture that you are trying to project,

967. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 5, 2013

Oh goodie (read sarcasm) So we are going to get all-out war with the Klingons and Khan – again…:((

Then again, why should the majority of longterm trekkies complain – because they always thought that the original Khan (TOS/TWOK) was Kirk’s big, worst nemesis anyway? In actuality, Khan was never Kirk’s real nemesis – just a nasty boil on his backside who was excised, at great cost, but he got him back – so all’s well that ends well.

It seems like Damon and co. might actually give what so many trekkies have believed and yearned for – Kirk having to deal with his real, longterm nemesis, the Klingons and this nuKhan who is about to genuinely reach Klingon status. Once the film is completed in all its wondrous gory glory, we’ll then see the gnashing of teeth, the hate calls being dealt unto the Supreme Court and JJ Abrams, or whichever poor director they get to take Abrams’ place if he can’t direct the third movie. Why? a) the movie is not a totally original story and b) they didn’t do Khan or the Klingons *right*.

Frankly, since when were a good many of you ever for an original storyline? The writers gave you what you wanted (sort of) and still a lot of you complain…UHG

Meanwhile, those of us who actually do yearn for a peaceful universe, where exploration of the wonderful, different, the *beautiful*, the *ugly* – well, their needs, desires, fantasies to have realized on that incredible medium called “film” (or whatever the tech term is) get tossed by the wayside – again.

So the warmongers reign – again; and to hell with goodness, romance, joy and wonder…:(

Bob Orci – please – no more of this warmongering crap!

968. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 5, 2013

Star Trek 09 opened on 7 May (Australia/NZ) and 8 May 2009 (US/elsewhere). Other countries followed.

STID opened on 9 May (Australia/NZ/UK et al) and on 16/17 May 2013 in the US/Canada…

Basically, in the main English speaking countries and parts of Europe, this movie opened at the same time/week as the 2009 movie opened, but it opened a week LATER in the US this time round.

969. GNDN - June 5, 2013

I finally had a chance to see the movie here in Europe and after reading many reviews and comments on this (and other) sites, I have to admit, my expectations were mixed- particularly with respect to warp core-scream-reincarnation sequence. I’m happy to say that all things considered the movie works. Sure there are nits here/there, but for all of the popcorn fun there are some really good bits of ‘drama’ too. Greenwood and Quinto, along with Cumberbatch really delivered. Pine is making Kirk his own. Weller was fun too. I’ve been a fan of all incarnations of trek for a long time now and folks, honestly, we’re lucky to have this version. Star Trek was dead/buried or relegated to reruns and memories. JJ’s team brought their own flavor to it and for all of the things folks complain about it not being, Star Trek is fun and exciting. Kudos to the cast and production team.

970. Quatlo - June 5, 2013

Have read all the posts up to now over the past five days or so but might have missed this if it was asked or answered. So here goes and sorry if it’s already been covered.

Were there any advance audience test screenings for the film and if so, what was the input from that? Was anything changed as a result if test screenings indicated any weak spots, confusion or whatever?

971. Disinvited - June 5, 2013

#968. Keachick – rose pinenut – June 5, 2013

Exactly my point. If Unwanted’s going to use worldwide numbers then BOM’s tracking is off as it is using the 2013 week later Domestic opening for its tracking. Unwanted is going to have to resync to STID’s true opening of May 9 but when you sync that up with 2009′s May 7 which includes the near simultaneous domestic total in its worldwide we get a lopsided tremendous worldwide opening in favor of 2009.

Thanks for clearing up what the loss of some words muddied in my original statement.

972. Unwanted - June 5, 2013

@966 I don’t care about pictures, I care about the numbers, and that is all I am discussing. I don’t care about when either movie opened,none of that, the only factor I am at all interested in is the simple fact that while STID is slightly behind ST09 domestically (almost entirely due to much greater competition IMO), it has already topped the TOTAL international gross for ST09 by more than 20 million, and it has multiple countries where it has not even opened yet. No matter what anyone says the simple fact is that STID is going to have a greater total gross than ST09. There is only a gap of about 50 million between their total grosses right now, and China alone should cover that, to say nothing of Japan or the other markets STID has not hit yet.

But I feel myself starting to argue again, and since my absence the last few weeks was entirely due to not wanting to continue having the exact same argument with people over and over again, I will therefore not be returning to this thread today.

973. Aurore - June 5, 2013

“…Frankly, since when were a good many of you ever for an original storyline? The writers gave you what you wanted (sort of) and still a lot of you complain…”
________

To be fair Rosemary, although many appear to have loved “John Harrison ” in the movie, it seems that the clear majority of this site’s visitors did not want Khan.

You remember what the fellow poster who went through the poll archive found out recently, it was on the last thread, and, somewhere on this one too, if I am not mistaken.

Thus, Rosemary, you are right ; apparently, the writers did do what some fans wanted them to do.

However, being fans themselves, I believe they essentially did what they wanted to do…hoping that the vast majority would like it…

974. Disinvited - June 5, 2013

#970. Quatlo – June 5, 2013

Quick answer: no test screenings.

975. Disinvited - June 5, 2013

#972. Unwanted – June 5, 2013

Not arguing that. Just pointing out the for the first week of “worldwide” openings 2009 bested 2013 by a wide margin.

976. Disinvited - June 5, 2013

I’ve grown up with Leonard Nimoy over the decades. I clearly recall him from a movie serial my local station would run as Saturday morning kids’ programming, ZOMBIES FROM THE STRATOSHPERE. I truly became aware of him from his playing the reporter in the I, ROBOT Adam Link episode of THE OUTER LIMITS which caused me to notice another small part he had in another of its episodes. I was a HUGE fan of THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. and recall he and the Shat from that. I love Leonard Nimoy and by that I mean I love being entertained by him.

But when it comes for some to call for declaring him some sort of pope of STAR TREK capable of discerning unerringly when something strays from it, I have to put on a quizzical face. I have read what the man had to say about it and I have even heard him say it live, in person. Never, have I walked away with the feeling that he’s had a consistent unwavering view of just what ST was. His writings can be summarized: I am not Spock/I am Spock. He spent an entire decade that started in 1971 saying of Trek: “I want out.” Only to turn around during filming of TWOK and exclaim “I want back in.”

The man knows how to perform compelling SF. He definitely knows how to portray his Spock character with all his trappings. He’s even responsible for what my family group regards as the best STAR TREK film of all time: TVH. But I’ll never be able to shake his image for me as a man whose made some whopping mistakes about the phenomenon that we know today as STAR TREK.

977. Charles Trotter - June 5, 2013

931. Aurore

“Did they really try to cast Indian actors, at some point?”

Good question. I could have sworn Damon Lindelof said on Twitter a few weeks ago that Indian actors had been considered, but I sure as hell can’t find that tweet now. Either he deleted it or he said it somewhere else or I completely imagined it.

978. Photon70 - June 5, 2013

@ 975. Disinvited – June 5, 2013

That would be absolutely true if we were comparing apples with apples.

ST09 open virtually simultaneously in North America and in almost all the international markets. All within a day or 2 of each other.

ST09 took almost $115 million on the opening weekend of 8-10 May 2009.

STiD had a phased opening. Some overseas markets first, then North America a week later, and so on. This weekend, it will open in Denmark, Netherlands and Portugal. Next weekend, it will open in France, Italy & Brazil.

STiD took $31.7 million from the first weekend from a few international markets, without North America, which didn’t open until a week later.

A week later, when North America opened, total cume reached $164 million.

STiD is now sitting above $330 million worldwide after 3 to 4 weeks.

ST09 after 4 full weeks was only $310.7 million.

979. Charles Trotter - June 5, 2013

967. Keachick – rose pinenut – June 5, 2013

Here’s hoping for a suspenseful tale about Starfleet trying to *avert* war, whether it be with the Klingons, the Romulans, or both, or neither, or whatever.

980. Disinvited - June 5, 2013

#978. Photon70 – June 5, 2013

Which is exactly my point about syncing up the domestics and then trying to throw the internationals on to it to make it look nice.

However, you are a bit misleading implying that 2009 didn’t have phased rollouts too. It did. It just doesn’t line up easily with what they chose to do now.

981. Basement Blogger - June 5, 2013

@ 857

Marja,

Interesting that you brought up Ripley from Alien as a hero to feminists. First, I loved Alien and the character of Ripley. I had a poster of her in my dorm room dressed in her Nostrmo uniform. Ripley was smart, tough and yes, beautiful.

But Alien and Star Trek share some common ideas. The ideal was the human condition of sex. H.R. Giger did the alien artwork and if you’re familiar with his stuff, he’s very sexual. And it shows up in Alien as metaphor all over the place. See the portal where the astronauts enter the alien ship. We know what that resembles.

There were more explicit images of sexuality in the movie. Some were cut and some and made it in the final film. In a cut scene, the crew wakens from their stasis, partially clothed. There’s a scene of a topless Ripley in her stasis pod. (I09; “Unused storyboards show how Alien could have been more p—–graphic” Sorry, story contains R rated photos so no link. ) Of course, there’s the scenes of Ripley on board the shuttle where she strips down to her underwear. And yes, some of these scenes by the angles were titillating. Hold on. I was around in 1979. I don’t remember the radical feminist and PC outrage over Sigourney Weaver’s underwear. Maybe it’s because Alice Eve’s underwear was not white.

But I digress. All that sexuality in Alien did not affect my view of Ripley. She’s intelligent. Tough. We find out in ‘”Aliens” that she is also a compassionate person. And forgive me for saying this. She’s a beautiful woman.

982. Karen - June 5, 2013

@981 BB

One of the very important reasons Ripley is so beloved of feminists is because she was originally written as a male character. Once Weaver was cast there was a small amount of tweaking, but overall her great strength came from being portrayed as a human being first and foremost. Unlike Carol Marcus, she wasn’t designed from the outset to be sexual catnip for Kirk and she sure as well wasn’t filmed that way. It’s no co-incidence that Ripley is a fabulous character, highly regarded in sf fandom. It’s because she’s not sexually obectified.

Ridley Scott is one of the most un-obectifying directors working in Hollywood. He has an unparalleled track record for portraying women as fully rounded and multi-faceted human beings without the nauseating sexual objectification overlay beloved of nearly every other male director out there. And that attitude is also front and center in the production company he and his brother Tony ran, Scott Free. If you want to see how strong and fabulous and gender-parity female characters are written in drama without ever emasculating the men? Look at Numb3rs.

And can we please, once and for all, put a lid on this utter bs that women who complain about sexual objectification and exploitation in popular culture are mean ugly sex-starved spoilsports? It’s not about denying women their sexuality. It’s how that sexuality is used to define women, objectify women, erase women from every other possible purpose other than being the compliant walking talking blow up sex dolls for every male character in sight. Most especially when the women are drop dead gorgeous and the men rate a -3 on the Richter scale of hotness. Furthermore, the utterly offensive dribble that women with any kind of authority are by definition ballbreakers and emasculaters.

I venture to say that most women are fine with women being admired for their looks. Most women enjoy a really beautiful man and his body, too. It’s not about the aesthetics. It’s about using gender and sexuality to limit, silence and control half the world’s population.

And seriously? If the first thought in your (generic you, I mean) head is to try and silence a woman who speaks up about this stuff? That might be a great big honking clue that you are, in fact, part of the problem.

983. RAMA - June 5, 2013

Slight uptick from Monday to $1.9 million Tues. If STID does $10-12 million on the weekend we’ll be around $200 million domestic. Without updated international numbers, that would still put the movie at around $350 million WW.

984. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 5, 2013

Nobody is saying that ST09 did not have a phased roll out, just like this movie.

The reality is that STID has had ONE week less time in North American cinemas than it did this time four years ago. This is fact. This means that the box office figures coming in for North America (excluding the international take) now tell of how much money this has made in this part of the world over a THREE week period as opposed to a four week period four years ago.

I don’t know how to explain it more simply. It would appear that STID is doing as well, if not better. The true, full (ie domestic and international) box office take won’t be known for a while yet.

985. Crone - June 5, 2013

Had some time to kill, so caught an 4:00 show in IMAX. There were about 15 other folks in there with me, which I thought was pretty good considering it was a beautiful day outside and the movie was playing on two other screens in the complex. Again, a very enjoyable time. The more I see this , the more I enjoy it- I find it possible to ignore what I dislike about the writing and just enjoy the ride.
I keep thinking that a possibly more effective ending would to have Spock Prime being the one to die by saving the ship again. I would have cried a lot and it would have been a nice comment on destiny or something . But, of course, It would preclude Nimoy showing up again, and everything is better with Nimoy. Thanks again , to the Powers That Be, for keeping my favorite characters flying.

986. Crone - June 5, 2013

Had some time to kill, so caught an 4:00 show in IMAX. There were about 15 other folks in there with me, which I thought was pretty good considering it was a beautiful day outside and the movie was playing on two other screens in the complex. Again, a very enjoyable time. The more I see this , the more I enjoy it- I find it possible to ignore what I dislike about the writing and just enjoy the ride.
I keep thinking that a possibly more effective ending would to have Spock Prime being the one to die by saving the ship again. I would have cried a lot and it would have been a nice comment on destiny or something . But, of course, It would preclude Nimoy showing up again, and everything is better with Nimoy. Thanks again , to the Powers That Be, for keeping my favorite characters flying.

987. Crone - June 5, 2013

Had some time to kill, so caught an 4:00 show in IMAX. There were about 15 other folks in there with me, which I thought was pretty good considering it was a beautiful day outside and the movie was playing on two other screens in the complex. Again, a very enjoyable time. The more I see this , the more I enjoy it- I find it possible to ignore what I dislike about the writing and just enjoy the ride.
I keep thinking that a possibly more effective ending would to have Spock Prime being the one to die by saving the ship again. I would have cried a lot and it would have been a nice comment on destiny or something . But, of course, It would preclude Nimoy showing up again, and everything is better with Nimoy. Thanks again , to the Powers That Be, for keeping my favorite characters flying.

988. Crone - June 5, 2013

Had some time to kill, so caught an 4:00 show in IMAX. There were about 15 other folks in there with me, which I thought was pretty good considering it was a beautiful day outside and the movie was playing on two other screens in the complex. Again, a very enjoyable time. The more I see this , the more I enjoy it- I find it possible to ignore what I dislike about the writing and just enjoy the ride.
I keep thinking that a possibly more effective ending would to have Spock Prime being the one to die by saving the ship again. I would have cried a lot and it would have been a nice comment on destiny or something . But, of course, It would preclude Nimoy showing up again, and everything is better with Nimoy. Thanks again , to the Powers That Be, for keeping my favorite characters flying.

989. RAMA - June 5, 2013

984. Keachick, this is true, in fact the movie will be making a trickle of money till at least August. Some international opening don’t even occur till August.

990. Crone - June 5, 2013

Whoops… Sorry for the many posts.. I am on my husbands old iPad which frankly doesn’t work. Please delete duplicates so I don’t look like an idiot forever.

991. Photon70 - June 5, 2013

Hi all,

Not to labour too much on the box office.

If we must compare week to week takings, well, see below :)

ST09 1st week global: $115.0m.
ST09 2nd week global: $215.6m
ST09 3rd week global: $272.3m.
ST09 4th week global: $311.0m.

STiD 1st week global: $31.7m.
STiD 2nd week global: $164.2m.
STiD 3rd week global: $257.3m.
STiD 4th week global: $329.2m.

Whilst its true that STiD first weekend global take was less, it was a limited release and did not include North America.

In fact, as we can see, by the 4th weekend (including only 3 weekends in North America), STiD is now ahead of ST09.

992. Phobos in Montreal - June 5, 2013

Tuesday’s sales are out. $1,880,972 (day 20)
Which is an increase of 15.2% over Monday’s $1,632,233.
I was off thinking Tuesday would pull in $4m. I guess the theatre where I go being sold out (both IMAX and plain screens) was not going on throughout North America.

Anyway, considering Tue is a heavy discount day and Tue was higher than Monday I guess that is a still a positive for STID.

993. Trekman93 - June 5, 2013

http://www.startrek.com/article/one-trek-mind-komparing-khans

994. Photon70 - June 5, 2013

@ 992. Phobos in Montreal – June 5, 2013

Another $3 from Weds & Thurs, with a $10 – $12m weekend; and STiD should sit just under $200m on Monday morning!

995. Basement Blogger - June 5, 2013

@ 982

Karen,

Karen says,

“And can we please, once and for all, put a lid on this utter bs that women who complain about sexual objectification and exploitation in popular culture are mean ugly sex-starved spoilsports?”

i did not say that “bs.”

Karen says,

“And seriously? If the first thought in your (generic you, I mean) head is to try and silence a woman who speaks up about this stuff? That might be a great big honking clue that you are, in fact, part of the problem.”

I’m guessing by you using the term “generic you” that you’re not talking about me. But since your post is addressed to me, I could take it you mean me and you’re saying that I want to “silence a woman who speaks up about this stuff.” NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR. SPEAK YOUR MIND. I believe in this famous quote attributed to Voltaire:

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

Exercise your right to speak at all times. Participate in the marketplace of ideas. From this comes truth and justice.

The point of my post at 981 was to show that Alien had significant sexual undertones. I said Ripley was intelligent, tough and yes she was beautiful. Please don’t attribute despicable ideas to me to fit a version that I’m some type of bogeyman sexist.

PS. You make the point that Marcus was catnip to Kirk and indicate that Ripley was kind of asexual. For years, there’s been the story that there was to be a sex scene between Ripley and Dallas. Heard that a long time ago and here it is . I am a big fan of the movie. Anyway, Ridley Scott storyboarded the love scene.

http://weyland-yutaniarchives.blogspot.com/2009/09/alien-misconceptions-explained.html

I’ve seen multiple internet sources talk about the unfilmed love scene between Ripley and Dallas

So even if Ripley was scripted to commit the sin (smile) of making love to a man, she’s still an intelligent, tough, compassionate and beautiful woman. And yes, she is not defined by a man or needs one. Okay?

996. LongtimeSpockfan - June 5, 2013

905, dmduncan, “they are supposed to be the same people” ???

25 years before STXI, a significant event took place which ALTERED THE TIME STREAM.

Events in people’s lives influence their behavior, and thus, their personalities.

The “emotional basket case” Spock has incredible issues of Post-Traumatic Stress to deal with. Trying to be Vulcan, he has suppressed an incredible amount of emotion. So yeah, I’m gonna “milk that cow,” because you don’t seem to understand the change post-traumatic stress can make in a personality.

(TOS Spock cannot be held up for who AU Spock “is supposed to be.” TOS had a stable family life. Both his parents still lived. I know for a fact that grief can change a person dramatically, especially grief that you’ve only had six months to deal with.)
—————————————– “Fangirl” Comments ——————————————

As for “catering to S/U fangirls” I would love to see EVERY ONE of the K/S slash shippers on this board [who treasure the belief that Kirk and Spock are romantically destined] – and before you take exception, CuriousCadet, this section of my post is not specifically addressed to YOU – “come out” and admit who you are, and subject yourselves to the same sort of derision S/U admirers have had to put up with. I am really fed up with your wrapping yourselves in a cloak of anonymity while dissing the small number of us willing to state one of the things we really like about the alternate timeline – Spock and Uhura together.

997. William Bradley - June 5, 2013

At the domestic box office, STID is about $10 million behind ST09. And that is before you consider the inflation factor.

In order to do as well as ST09, STID has to gross $21.6 million MORE than ST09 did. Since it’s $10 million behind now, it will fall well short of that.

Yes, it’s doing much better internationally. But a much bigger effort was placed into accomplishing just that, with a great deal more money spent on marketing and advertising abroad, in addition to the acknowledged big boost in the production budget of the film itself.

>991. Photon70 – June 5, 2013
Hi all,

Not to labour too much on the box office.

998. Randall - June 5, 2013

As a huge Star Trek fan this was a great movie for the fans. There were a lot of great little references to the series. It was easy to see that the writers cared a lot for the subject matter. Even my brother who isn’t really a Star Trek fan loved this movie. It was one of the best Star Wars movies.

999. Photon70 - June 5, 2013

@ 997. William Bradley – June 5, 2013

Amen to that.

Paramount have finally stopped treating Star Trek like a throwaway item and started treating it as a global brand.

It will take another couple of films before Star Trek will potentially join the $750m club but STiD will get to around $500m and that’s a great result.

Yes, the gross is down in North America. I think we can lay that down to the marketing campaign from Paramount and perhaps the advertised theme did not sit well domestically.

No doubts the instructions from Paramount for the next one will be to make it fun.

1000. Harry Ballz - June 5, 2013

1000 posts and what have we learned?

1001. Photon70 - June 5, 2013

@1000. Harry Ballz – June 5, 2013

The movie will make lots of money but didn’t take off in North America to become a first tier blockbuster that perhaps Paramount was hoping.

We have a 300lb gorilla and not a 500lb gorilla.

The international box office will be the true shining light from a Star Trek franchise point of view.

The studio will focus on strengthening the domestic markets whilst working to maintain international interest in 2016.

1002. Charles Trotter - June 5, 2013

Enough of this Khan/feminist/box office bs. Time for a new topic:

Who else thinks Matt Decker should appear in ST3 and that he should be played by Tom Hanks?

1003. Photon70 - June 5, 2013

@ 1002. Charles Trotter – June 5, 2013

I think Paramount should identify every Hollywood star that is a Trekker and cast one or two of them in suitable supporting roles in the next film.

People like Tom Hanks, Rosario Dawson, Daniel Craig, Whoopy Goldberg, Angelina Jolie & many more are all self professed fans.

1004. Karen - June 5, 2013

@995 BB

Yes. you’re right, sorry. You didn’t say that, and I implied that you did due to fast typing and no edit function. Mea culpa.

Although I still stand by the point. *g*

And seriously, I have no problem with women on film being depicted as lustily bedding someone. It’s interesting they cut that Alien scene. Be interesting to know why.

I venture to say that for most women rowing in this boat, it isn’t and never was about wanting to desexualise women. Depicting women as actively sexual beings, as sexually attractive beings, is not misogynistic or sexist in any way. I never thought it was and I roll my eyes hard at people who think that’s the case. I also roll my eyes at people who attempt to derail the conversation along those faulty lines, wilfully reframing the arguments of folk like me in an attempt to delegitimise the original point.

But there is a difference between showing women as enthusiastically sexual, and depicting them as passive blow up dolls for male edification and titillation, or by consistently limiting their depictions to that of sex toy without expanding their presence, expertise and authority beyond that narrow parameter. STID has failed on that score, failed worse than the first film did. There were many, many opportunities to portray the future as a place where men and women lived their lives on equal footing. They failed to do that. It’s not good enough. They need to do better. It’s the 21st century, ffs. Please don’t tell me this is the best they can do.

1005. Charles Trotter - June 5, 2013

1003. Photon70

Whoopi Goldberg’s already had a Trek role — though I suppose there’s nothing preventing her from appearing as Guinan in the next movie.

I just think Tom Hanks, in addition to being a devout Trek fan, would be perfect in the role of Decker. Hanks is a bit older than Windom was when he played Decker, but I don’t care, Hanks would still nail it.

Of course, if Decker ends up being in the movie and Brad Bird ends up directing it, there’s a very small chance we could see George Clooney in the role. Bird is currently working with Clooney and Damon Lindelof on sci-fi pic ‘Tomorrowland.’ I would be fine with Clooney as Decker, but I would *really* like to see Hanks in the role.

Hey, boborci: Tom Hanks as Matt Decker! Please try and make this happen, will ya? :)

1006. Rick - June 5, 2013

@996-

LOL

Wow. I get you guys feel threatened by the amount of people who don’t like the Spock/Uhura relationship, but now you’re gonna come out and say those who don’t like it want Kirk and Spock gay? Are you serious?

For the record, I have never heard anyone on here once come close to mentioning they wanted a Kirk and Spock romance. To say it is the most important relationship in Trek is not the same as “shipping” them. Kirk and Spock aren’t gay, and people here seem to know that.

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen one of you guys come out and cry about slash girl being mean to Spock and Uhura. Yet I’ve not really seen anything like that on this site. If you want to start a fight with other fangirls why don’t you go somewhere that actually has some.

We don’t “cloak in anonymity”, we have opinions and we state them. If you don’t like it, too bad. If it makes you feel better to think we don’t like them because we want Spock to go gay for Kirk, well that’s your delusion to have.

1007. Becca - June 5, 2013

As for “catering to S/U fangirls” I would love to see EVERY ONE of the K/S slash shippers on this board [who treasure the belief that Kirk and Spock are romantically destined] – and before you take exception, CuriousCadet, this section of my post is not specifically addressed to YOU – “come out” and admit who you are, and subject yourselves to the same sort of derision S/U admirers have had to put up with. I am really fed up with your wrapping yourselves in a cloak of anonymity while dissing the small number of us willing to state one of the things we really like about the alternate timeline – Spock and Uhura together.
——————————————————————————————————
Okaaay so….

I don’t like Spock/Uhura relationship= I want gay Kirk/Spock??

Right. Got it. Makes total sense.

1008. Thorny - June 5, 2013

1002… Decker yes, but I think Hanks is a bit too old now. I nominate Damien Lewis.

1009. Karen - June 5, 2013

@1000 Harry

What have we learned?

OMG!!!! Somebody’s wrong on teh internetz!

1010. LongtimeSpockfan - June 5, 2013

1006. Rick – June 5, 2013

@996-

LOL

Wow. I get you guys feel threatened by the amount of people … Yeah, a number of people which is WAY overrepresented, by the way, and among whom, I reiterate, are fans of the Kirk/Spock “slash relationship”.

Fans of Spock and Uhura have been ridiculed so much they get tired of coming here. My point is, how many K/S fans are actually gonna admit to their fandom? ZERO. A big ZERO. Because they are too afraid of getting lambasted. THAT is my point.

who don’t like the Spock/Uhura relationship, but now you’re gonna come out and say those who don’t like it want Kirk and Spock gay?
Not everybody who says they don’t like Spock with Uhura wants K/S. Just a few. And they keep anonymous.

For the record, I have never heard anyone on here once come close to mentioning they wanted a Kirk and Spock romance.
LOL No, duh. They’re too embarrassed to admit it!

Come out come out!

To say it is the most important relationship in Trek is not the same as “shipping” them. Kirk and Spock aren’t gay, and people here seem to know that.

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen one of you guys come out and cry about slash girl being mean to Spock and Uhura. Yet I’ve not really seen anything like that on this site. If you want to start a fight with other fangirls why don’t you go somewhere that actually has some.

We don’t “cloak in anonymity”, we have opinions and we state them. If you don’t like it, too bad. If it makes you feel better to think we don’t like them because we want Spock to go gay for Kirk, well that’s your delusion to have.

1011. Trekkiegal63 - June 5, 2013

#996. LongtimeSpockfan:

As for “catering to S/U fangirls” I would love to see EVERY ONE of the K/S slash shippers on this board [who treasure the belief that Kirk and Spock are romantically destined] – and before you take exception, CuriousCadet, this section of my post is not specifically addressed to YOU – “come out” and admit who you are, and subject yourselves to the same sort of derision S/U admirers have had to put up with.

LOLOLOL!!!! That’s hilarious. So anyone who doesn’t like S/U is automatically a shipper of a different pairing, a pairing that makes even less sense than S/U, at that, as neither Kirk nor Spock are gay characters? (Nothing against gay characters mind, in fact, I think its past time Trek had them, but both Kirk and Spock have identified, on more than one occasion, as straight).

What a paranoid world you live in. And not only paranoid, but, to coin a phrase, entirely illogical. Quite literally:

False dilemma (false dichotomy, fallacy of bifurcation, black-or-white fallacy) – two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more

Oh, and this one:

Psychologist’s fallacy – an observer presupposes the objectivity of his own perspective when analyzing a behavioral event.

…But to add to the false dilemma, here’s another alternative for ya… maybe people who dislike S/U are not shippers at all. Maybe some people think that ‘shipping’, when taken to extremes, such as blanketly accusing other people of doing it because they disagree with you, is ridiculous and unhealthy behavior. And exhibits far too much emotional investment in a fictitious pairing. Just saying… ;)

1012. Trekkiegal63 - June 5, 2013

#1010. LongtimeSpockfan:

You must be a sock puppet. And I have a feeling I know who else you post under.

I’ve been told that there was a time when using more than one identity was outlawed on this site. I bet Anthony can look that up by IP as well as email.

1013. Mallory - June 5, 2013

@996

“As for “catering to S/U fangirls” I would love to see EVERY ONE of the K/S slash shippers on this board [who treasure the belief that Kirk and Spock are romantically destined] – and before you take exception, CuriousCadet, this section of my post is not specifically addressed to YOU – “come out” and admit who you are”

Why are you so sure they are slash fans? Because they care more about the Kirk and Spock relationship than Spock and Uhuras?
You say they are scared to cone out and say it, could it just be that they simply don’t see them as a gay couple, yet still find Spock and Uhura uninteresting? I am on that boat.

It sounds like you are looking or any reason to defend the relationship, and while I understand its important to you, accusing them of being slash fans seems a little far fetched.
Why would you call out curious cadet? Unless I’ve missed something big, I’ve not seen them post anything “slash” before.

1014. Mark - June 5, 2013

What is up with people bringing slash and shipping and whatever they’re complaining about? You know the only people who throw out these things are spock and uhura fans. If this is what you want to get into, Spock and Kirk versus Spock and Uhura, this is the wrong site for you. If people don’t like Spock moping with a girlfriend here they must want him to be gay? Are you serious??

I saw some other fool talk like this before as well. Another poster to ignore I guess.

@1011 Trekkigal
Yea, one guess who..

1015. William Bradley - June 5, 2013

I believe what the studio wanted, and largely expected, after the reboot was a second movie that would take off into the stratosphere as happened with Batman after Batman Begins.

The follow-up was The Dark Knight, a leap forward in conceptual quality.

What it got was more like what happened with Bond after the Casino Royale reboot … Quantum of Solace. A movie that did a lot of business but didn’t move forward in domestic box office. A movie that had significant conceptual problems.

Much the same thing happened with the second Iron Man film. The first was, like ST09, a thoroughgoing delight, and something of a surprise. But Iron Man 2 was, conceptually, something of a mess.

It actually grossed less than the first Iron Man in domestic box office, but made up for it at the, wait for it, international box office.

BTW, STID is going to do FAR better than any previous Trek film internationally, by a larger factor of improvement than these other films experienced. But Trek has always been unusually anemic in international markets. So it starts from a much smaller base.

What we want from the third new Trek movie is something like Skyfall, which has many callbacks to the franchise’s storied history without causing massive teeth grinding. And something like Iron Man 3, which takes a big contemporary issue and gives it an extremely clever and genuinely surprising twist.

It also doesn’t hurt that these movies have better roles for women, too. Which gets into another area.

1016. Basement Blogger - June 5, 2013

@ 1004

Karen,

Yes, they can do a better job of depicting women in the new Star Trek movies. It’s likely in 2016 we will have our first woman President. So why not a woman to be the head of Starfleet? Perhaps use T’Pol from Enterprise. Possible because it’s an alternate universe.

Unfortunately, deep story telling belongs to TV. (Link. TV is for adults.) And Star Trek on TV is nowhere on the horizon. Voyager had a woman captain. It’s time for another but it’s probably going to occur on TV first. Anthony says this all the time. Star Trek belongs on TV where more complex stories can be told. I agree.

Link. Movies are for teenagers; TV for adults.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130612646

1017. Photon70 - June 5, 2013

@ 1014. William Bradley – June 5, 2013

It remains to be seen if Bad Robot can deliver a Trek Skyfall.

It may be a good thing if Bad Robot cannot use all their current personnel due to SW commitments.

It could give the next movie the injection of fresh ideas and creative juices it needs.

The 3 Daniel Craig Bond films had largely the same group of writers at their core.

But Skyfall included John Logan (ST Nemesis)!

1018. William Bradley - June 5, 2013

Yes, John Logan, Oscar-nominated for Gladiator and The Aviator (Scorsese’s Howard Hughes picture).

Skyfall directed by Oscar-winner Sam Mendes.

And a lot of Oscar-caliber firepower in that cast, PLUS producers who do not get distracted by a lot of other stuff.

Barbara Broccoli and Michael Wilson produce the James Bond franchise. That’s what they do.

Their whole professional focus is 007.

1016. Photon70 – June 5, 2013

1019. Photon70 - June 5, 2013

@ 1017. William Bradley – June 5, 2013

Agreed and too bad we had to wait 4 years for STiD whilst the team got to indulge in other movie and TV projects as much as I can understand their publically stated reasons for doing so.

1020. Karen - June 5, 2013

@1015 BB

Well, yes, I think you’re absolutely right. The trouble this time around is that while the original Trek films grew out of the established tv-verse, the reboot is happening in movieland where the rules are completely different. In tv-verse there’s all the time in the world to let the main characters take a back seat in an ep, so that the second string characters can take centre stage and shine. Not possible in movieland. And this means people ultimately end up feeling betrayed or dissatisfied or shortchanged because a character like Sulu (who face it, almost never got major tv face time) is kept in the background of the reboot movies. Mind you, I think some of that reaction is in response to Cho’s truly wonderful performance as Sulu. I don’t actually hear too many people screaming for more Chekov, even though Anton Yeltin is doing a lovely job, I think.

I don’t know what the answer is. And given that it seems more tv Trek is dead in the water due to the politics of the day … perhaps we’re destined to have 2, maybe 3 movies, and that’ll be that. And if that is the case they better make #3 an absolute ripper!

1021. Aurore - June 6, 2013

Hi, everyone!

@ Mr. Wong,

Sorry for interrupting the discussion, but, your attention is required on another thread.

A clue?… “Corinthian leather “…

Thank you.

1022. dmduncan - June 6, 2013

996. LongtimeSpockfan – June 5, 2013
905, dmduncan, “they are supposed to be the same people” ???

25 years before STXI, a significant event took place which ALTERED THE TIME STREAM.

***

Yeah yeah yeah. Kirk lost his daddy and he’s had some issues as a result and YET he’s still the same personALITY albeit younger. I recognize Kirk in him. Spock, on the other hand DIDN’T lose his daddy. He lost his mommy and his planet long AFTER he grew up. And seriously? PTSD? You’re diagnosing Spock with PTSD, Dr.?

So now we should have Spock taking time off from his duties to get counseled—say, somewhere between extinguishing volcanoes and having phaser battles with Klingons. Amazing how well he held up in those two situations, no doubt due to the calming influence of Uhura who is also, no doubt, the only thing keeping him stitched together.

And I’m not really sure what you mean there, but if you’re trying to smear Spuhura opponents as secret gay K/S shippers, please don’t. Against me in particular that would be 1. A desperate countermeasure, and 2. Inaccurate.

Why, the idea that a character can survive on friendship alone without any romantic entanglements?

OutRAGEous! It could snowball and put the whole RomCom genre out of business.

1023. William Bradley - June 6, 2013

1018 … Christopher Nolan took four years between the second and third Dark Knight films. But they were the second and third, not the first and second, so momentum was not lost.

Instead, after Dark Knight, there was pent-up demand.

And the project he did that got in the way was Inception, so I don’t think anyone begrudged him that. They were too busy being excited about the new movie.

>1018. Photon70 – June 5, 2013
@ 1017. William Bradley – June 5, 2013

Agreed and too bad we had to wait 4 years for STiD whilst the team got to indulge in other movie and TV projects as much as I can understand their publically stated reasons for doing so.

1024. Mike - June 6, 2013

996-

Hey! What’s up Spock/Uhura Admirer?!

Yea, we don’t like the romance so we prefer Spock to be gay?
No, but nice try though. Take your stupid “shipping” fights somewhere else. Not only do we not care about it but it just makes you look ridiculous that you think THAT is the reason people speak out against Spock and uhura.

1025. Baby - June 6, 2013

Why do people keep giving the dark knight rises a free pass and not STiD? Has everyone forgotten that the dark knight rises made less money than the dark knight in the USA, however it made more money at the overall, world wide box office.

STiD will follow the same part. the film will make more money worldwide but wont make as much domestically. it is stupid for people to call STiD a flop and not the dark knight rises.

Also again TDKR was almost terrible and was inferior to The Dark Knight. a lot of fans seems to prefer STiD to ST 09.

Everyone needs to chill when it comes to the box office of STiD. The film might just become the highest grossing Trek film. St-MP sits at 439 million when adjusted for inflation. STID has a good chance of surpasses that and that is good.

However the producers of STiD will have to have a deep thinking for the third and final film. Clearly they did something wrong with this film because this movie was not as well received as the first film and with Star Wars coming out. Trek will need to step up its game on a critical and quality level

However if this new Trek film is met with high critical acclaim as ST09 and STID are already are, than they will stand the test of time. it will not matter if it doesn’t make a lot of money.

Remember guys box office doesn’t mean quality just look at the Transformers and Twilight films, they made twice as much as ST09 ad STiD but No sane person will ever put them on any kind of best film list.

Seondly I think all the ship fans need to grow up. I am sick of the constant S/U and K/S fan wars. It crazy that such fan wars exist when one is not even canon and that is K/S.

I believe a lot of trek fans know that neither Kirk and Spock are gay that is why they call it slash fan fiction . it is not a fan fiction that is written the way the characters are established by the author. there are loads of Harry/Draco fan fics , however I believe we all know the character of harry potter is not gay.

slash fan fiction is written by trek fan girls who are a loud minority when it comes to this subject. I think it is an insult to most trek guys to call them slash fans when in reality most trek males appreciate Jim Kirk’s reputation as a ladies man and Spock of TOS having sexual encounters with women. Leia and Zarabeth just to name a few.

Not withstanding, I do think some K/S fans are threatened by the S/U fan base and that is why some of them bully S/U fans. Still having said this, there are a lot of erratic S/U fans that whine a lot.

A lot of them seems to forget that Trek is not a romance series. it is a sci-fi series and the friendship between kirk and spock is the centre of the series. everything else either it is kirk/carol or spock/uhura is secondary.

Bout yeah, the majority of us are fully aware that Kirk and Spock are not gay guys that is just ridiculous.

1026. Tuomas - June 6, 2013

The film opened here in Finland yesterday, 5.6. I saw it 26.5. in a preview screening and loved it. Today it arrives at the local cinema and I’ll be there again!

Star Trek Into Darkness is the first film ever I’ll see more than once in cinema.

1027. William Bradley - June 6, 2013

The Dark Knight Rises took in over a billion dollars at the box office. It’s in the All-Time Top 10 in worldwide box office.

This is why nobody calls it a “flop.” STID won’t come within half a billion dollars of it.

It’s the third movie, not the second.

>1024. Baby – June 6, 2013
Why do people keep giving the dark knight rises a free pass and not STiD? Has everyone forgotten that the dark knight rises made less money than the dark knight in the USA, however it made more money at the overall, world wide box office.

STiD will follow the same part. the film will make more money worldwide but wont make as much domestically. it is stupid for people to call STiD a flop and not the dark knight rises.

1028. William Bradley - June 6, 2013

… ALSO, TDKR was hurt by the theater massacre opening night in Aurora, Colorado.

1029. Baby - June 6, 2013

1027 William Bradley,

No even without the tragic massacre, TDKR wont have still come close to the TDK. the film was not even as good as TDK. May I also add that ,TDK while be a very good film is painfully overrated,

I am sick of all the crazy Nolan fan boys excluding this film. the movie was just not on the level of the first two. the critics gave TDKR a pass because they got death threats from the crazy Nolan fans.

I was not even referring to the billion dollar mark it crossed, I am talking about the fact that TDKR still made less money in the USA in comparison to TDK.

So if people are not going to call TDKR a flop why should they call STiD a flop?

Also lets not forget the fact that TDKR didn’t even get any Oscar nominations. STiD will probably get some nods .

Am sorry but I just cant tolerates Nolan fan boys.

May I also say that empire sticks backs , attack of the clones and Spiderman 2 all made less money that their predecessors films so why are we not calling these film flops?

STiD for a Trek film has done very well , when you take into consideration the insane competition this year from Iron Man 3, Fast t and the Furious.

1030. Other Guy - June 6, 2013

One thing is for sure. I have never seen Zombie-Trekkies so keen on box office data.

1031. Phobos in Montreal - June 6, 2013

@1025 Tuomas
I agree.

1032. Curious Cadet - June 6, 2013

@992. Phobos in Montreal,
“considering Tue is a heavy discount day and Tue was higher than Monday I guess that is a still a positive for STID.”

It’s always a positive when it makes more money. But honestly Phobos, you are going about this all wrong. Take a look at the comparison charts on boxofficemojo, you need to compare Monday to Monday, tues to tues, and ST09 to STID, etc. as Tuesdays and Thursdays always seem to make more money than Mondays and Wednesdays. Ultimately it’s the aggregate that matters, and the pattern, not one day to the next.

Further, STIDs 3rd Tuesday is performing closer to STIDs 4th Tuesday, and actually somewhere between the 4th & 5th. Which means, while STID is definitely going to pass the $200 million mark, it might not be this weekend, as it’s not likely going to make 10 million this weekend if it continues to follow the ST09 4th and 5th week earnings.

Also, ST09 earned about $270 million adjusted. At day 20 ST09 was sitting at about $204 million adjusted. That means STID is also about $20 million behind ST09 accounting for inflation, before you consider the fact 3D tickets account for a premium percentage, and that means in terms of attendance STID is greatly underperforming, despite your full auditoriums.

This weekend will tell the story, but STID seems to be following a well established pattern of steady fall-off following its open, only it lost a week without competition before Memorial Day which ST09 benifitted from.

Fortunately, the foreign numbers are there to pick up the slack, and depending on where the other major territories open, could end up more than saving the increased investment in production budget and marketing. But this is how most normal films work today. The international far outstrips the domestic. But Star Trek has always been upside down internationally. So for now STID is doing fine worldwide. But make no mistake about it, the US is underperforming ST09 in a disappointing way, and needs to be analyzed and fixed before the next film.

1033. Curious Cadet - June 6, 2013

Correction: STIDs 3rd Tuesday is performing closer to ST09′s 4th Tuesday

1034. Profit Projections for STID and other 2013 releases - June 6, 2013

The Hollywood Reporter breaks down projected net profits for STID and other big movies so far. Of note is that budget and marketing costs for STID were just $30 million behind Iron Man 3. Net profit for IM3: $200 million. Net profit for STID: $75 million.

Iron Man 3 (Disney/Marvel Studios)

Budget/marketing: $375 million
Projected global gross: $1.2 billion

Revenue analysis: May’s biggest grosser is on track to generate profits upward of $400 million for Marvel and Disney, even after gross participants — including Robert Downey Jr. — take their fees, along with the $90 million or so owed Paramount because of its previous distribution deal with Marvel.

The Great Gatsby (Warners Bros./Village Roadshow Pictures)

Budget/marketing: $280 million
Projected global gross: $345 million

Revenue analysis: Thanks to generous Australian tax incentives, the budget for Baz Luhrmann’s 3D epic was a modest $105 million. With a surprisingly decent domestic haul ($129 million to date) and predictably good global business, Gatsby should result in profits in the $25 million range.

Star Trek Into Darkness (Paramount/Skydance Productions)

Budget/marketing: $365 million
Projected global gross: $490 million

Revenue analysis: J.J. Abrams’ sequel is on track to exceed the $385.7 million earned by his 2009 Star Trek. Fueled by a better showing internationally (Paramount expects overseas box office to hit $260 million), it won’t earn as much domestically as that film, but profits should reach $75 million.

Fast & Furious 6 (Universal)

Budget/marketing: $335 million
Projected global gross: $730 million

Revenue analysis: The sixth installment is a blockbuster domestically and abroad. It should turn in a franchise-best performance (Fast Five did $626.1 million in 2011) and reap profits of $200 million or more for Universal and Elliott Management after gross players Vin Diesel and Dwayne Johnson are paid.

Hangover Part III (Warner Bros./Legendary Pictures)

Budget/marketing: $253 million
Projected global gross: $375 million

Revenue analysis: The final Hangover won’t reach the level of the sequel ($586.8 million), but it is performing well overseas and has a lower budget than its May rivals, so it still should generate profits of $25 million or more after director Todd Phillips and other gross participants are paid their fees.

1035. Wytse - June 6, 2013

Finally the movie hits theaters here in The Netherlands. I think JJ did a wonderful job again!

Leonard Nimoy, Khan, Spock shouting Khan, Star Trek in 3d and all new spaces of the Enterprise. All in a roller-coaster of emotions in an compelling story.

Star Trek lives (as it always have been)

Thank you JJ!

1036. Jemini - June 6, 2013

I haven’t read the whole conversation only some bits but LOL @ people who said that the slash fans never post or read this site and they never are the ones make anti Spock/Uhura comments.

google: “STOP THE MADNESS vote to prevent a relationship between uhura and spock”
and then come back here and tell me that they never post and aren’t obsessed about the polls in this site where this relationship is one of the options.
(LOL)
(~ “stop the madness”~ LOL I love this fandom)

Don’t be so naive people (or don’t pretend to be).
You act like slash fans are a minority and I wonder if you ever look outside of this site because if you do you’ll get a whole new perspective of this fandom and see how every single interaction between K/S in this movie and the other is perceived in a certain way and it’s you the one who is considered “weird” if you talk about their friendship and think that Spock/Uhura and Kirk/Spock are two totally different things and that they aren’t the new Dawson/Joey vs Dawson/Pacey triangle drama and shit.

I don’t agree with anyone saying that if you dislike S/U you’re a slash fan because it’s not true but I also don’t agree with you guys here who pretend that slash fans aren’t very very vocal and you act like some of those shippers can’t possibly post here as well and hide their shipper agenda and bias. I don’t understand why you believe that they’d explicitly state that they dislike S/U because they ship slash. I’d think that people here generally want their comments to look as unbiased as possible in hope that the others will take them seriously…

However, I don’t think that K/S fans need to be slash fans to consider S/U a “threat” to disintegrate. You don’t need to be a “fangirl” either. The “fanboys” do have their own fair share of blame when it comes to the inability to accept anything that goes against their convictions and bias about the characters.
There are people that don’t like Uhura and the relationship because they think she’s replacing Bones and in that they make Uhura and McCoy and their fans “rivals” even though it makes no sense.
TL; DR Shippers aren’t the only ones with a biased opinion and agenda, you know. We all have our biases, our favorites, dynamics we like more than others.

1037. Dennis C - June 6, 2013

@991

According to the Hollywood Reporter STID will walk away with $75 million in net profit. While it has fallen behind in the U.S., it’s doing far better overseas compared to 2009.

With a production and marketing budget similar to Iron Man 3 it’s a respectable profit but not Iron Man 3 respectable. Iron Man 3 is looking at a net profit of $400 million — and that’s after everyone gets their cut.

Expect a lower budget for the next film. A lower budget will mean similar profit margins to a film like Iron Man 3.

1038. William Bradley - June 6, 2013

Because that is a totally non-serious definition of a “flop.”

I’m sorry, anyone who calls The Dark Knight Rises — a Top 10 all-time box office hit — a flop is someone out of touch.

>1028. Baby – June 6, 2013
1027 William Bradley,

No even without the tragic massacre, TDKR wont have still come close to the TDK. the film was not even as good as TDK. May I also add that ,TDK while be a very good film is painfully overrated,

I am sick of all the crazy Nolan fan boys excluding this film. the movie was just not on the level of the first two. the critics gave TDKR a pass because they got death threats from the crazy Nolan fans.

I was not even referring to the billion dollar mark it crossed, I am talking about the fact that TDKR still made less money in the USA in comparison to TDK.

So if people are not going to call TDKR a flop why should they call STiD a flop?

1039. Exverlobter - June 6, 2013

I loved the Dark Knight Rises.

1040. Phil - June 6, 2013

@1034. Nothing to sneeze at. This is an issue only because of perceptions, Bad Robot spent a lot of time talking up the TDK model in terms of box office growth, when what they should have been looking to for a business model was the non “Avengers” Marvel model. If the franchise becomes a dependable brand that can consistently deliver a 75MM-125MM to Paramounts bottom line it’s a win for everyone, especially if Paramount is unwilling or unable to manage the franchise in a fashion similar to Star Wars or Marvel. People forget it took some time to get these franchises to the point where they can deliver billion dollar events – you can’t cheat the process. If Bad Robot thought they could, then they were seriously mistaken.

1041. Trekkiegal63 - June 6, 2013

#1033. Jemini:

Bottom line.

The behavior of coming here and making a hasty generalization, blanketly calling a group of people one thing, is unacceptable. You can hide it behind a childish ‘but they do it, too’ all you want. Frankly, it wouldn’t surprise me if slash shippers did do it, too, such seems to be the nature of ‘shipping’ in general.

I get the psychology of what the sock puppet was trying to accomplish, label a group who carry a dissenting opinion one thing in the hopes that they’ll be shamed into not protesting the S/U romantic pairing so much. Too bad such a tactic is as obvious as it is reprehensible.

I think the point that needs to be made here is that a whole ton of people, from multiple demographics as far as age and gender, who do not like the S/U pairing. This has nothing to do with the popularity of slash (which I have theories about, from a psychological standpoint… I think slash became a movement because male characters outnumber female characters 3 to 1, and what female characters we do have are seldom well-rounded, fully fleshed-out and developed the way the male characters are, thus, in a very direct way, the whole slash thing is the result of the sexism inherent in Hollywood). This has been even more obvious as review after review of this new film has had negative things to say regarding the S/U pairing specifically.

I think you S/U shippers need to wrap your mind around the fact that people exist who don’t share your fascination. Simple as that.

1042. Curious Cadet - June 6, 2013

@1034. Dennis C,
“Expect a lower budget for the next film. A lower budget will mean similar profit margins to a film like Iron Man 3.”

I don’t necessarily agree the next movie will have a lower budget. I don’t think it will be a higher budget, but Paramount just found out what it takes to ignite the foreign box office, and obviously miscalculated with domestic, taking ST09′s earmings for granted. So to arbitraily reduce the budget just when they’re poised to balance the domestic box office and grow the foreign box office, I think would be a mistake.

Budgets are a function of the script. The third film could be lower budget simply because it does not require the same level of expenditures to tell the story. Or it could be larger if the producers can make a compelling argument to the studio — such as casting a top-grossing A-list celebrity. As long as Paramount ends up making a profit at the box office, even though it’s not the same as Iron Man 3, then there’s no reason to spend less to make more, and risk potentially earning less too. Especially when from all appearances Paramount is only just now figuring out how to successfully produce and market Star Trek to turn it into their own billion dollar franchise. It may never make it to Mrvel films levels, but after only two films, one thing is obvious — there is untapped potential which cannot be explored without giving it the same resources afforded to other blockbuster franchises.

1043. Baby - June 6, 2013

1034. Dennis C – June 6, 2013
@991

According to the Hollywood Reporter STID will walk away with $75 million in net profit. While it has fallen behind in the U.S., it’s doing far better overseas compared to 2009.

With a production and marketing budget similar to Iron Man 3 it’s a respectable profit but not Iron Man 3 respectable. Iron Man 3 is looking at a net profit of $400 million — and that’s after everyone gets their cut.

Expect a lower budget for the next film. A lower budget will mean similar profit margins to a film like Iron Man 3.
———————————————————————————————–

Does any one else find Marvel annoying?

I am just sick of Marvel. all their heroes are overexposed and they have basically become bullies at the box office.

Just look at what Iron man did to STiD and Iron Man is not even that great.

I wish Marvel can just go away. there is no need for Avengers 2. Unlike TDK, Avengers didn’t leave anything hanging. Marvel is just try to cash in.

They keep telling the same story over and over again.

Gosh I hope Star Wars kicks the crap out of Avengers 2 in 2015.

Really hoping STiD an cross the 500 million dollar mark. sure it is not TDKR or Iron Man numbers but it is a huge leap for Trek films

1044. captainspock - June 6, 2013

http://www.heyuguys.co.uk/damon-lindelof-says-he-already-knows-the-bad-guys-and-key-plot-points-of-star-trek-iii/

in the next movie star trek III we mite see the klingons back the borg or the Q or a baby picard according to this artical we have to wait & see cool artical !

1045. Danpaine - June 6, 2013

Kind of a bummer for me to say it, but as a 35 + year Trek fan, I thought the second Batman film was better than STID. And I’m not necessarily a big Batman/Nolan fan.

It’s simple. Better story, better directing.

Just an opinion.

1046. Curious Cadet - June 6, 2013

@1040. Baby,
“I wish Marvel can just go away. there is no need for Avengers 2. Unlike TDK, Avengers didn’t leave anything hanging. Marvel is just try to cash in. They keep telling the same story over and over again.”

Are you kidding me with those comments?

What do you think the Star Trek movies are about? They’re not making them for some altruistic purpose … Paramount is just trying to cash in on their franchise too. There is no other explanation for STV:TFF, et al.

As for telling the same stories over and over again, most of the movies do just that. Villain/Entity seeks to destroy Earth, and/or is out for revenge. And aside from STII-IV which was a three movie arc, these movies leave no threads hanging, so I guess no need to make any more Star Trek movie sequels either. Right?

I’m no Marvel fan, but seriously, you need to step back and get some objectivity here. If Paramount figures how to turn Star Trek into Marvel how would you feel if some Marvel fan labeled the exact same valid criticisms at Star Trek for becoming ‘bullies’ at the box office?

1047. star trackie - June 6, 2013

Anyone who thinks Trek can ever achieve Iron Man or Avengers numbers is delusional. Iron Man 3 benefited from the crazy worldwide domination of The Avengers, which benefited from a masterful marketing strategy that began years ago. Iron Man fed Hulk which fed Captain America which fed Thor, all which simmered for years until they all exploded onto the screen with The Avengers. It was masterful.

Trek doesn’t have the benefit of crossover marketing. It will NEVER reach those numbers. Having said that, I don’t think Paramount, for one minute, ever expected it to. What it has is a profitable franchise that continues to do incredibly well and is leaps and BOUNDS more successful than previous Trek films like Nemesis, Insurrection, etc. Steady as she goes, Star Trek lives!

1048. Barney - June 6, 2013

1038. Trekkiegal63 – June 6, 2013
#1033. Jemini:

Bottom line.

The behavior of coming here and making a hasty generalization, blanketly calling a group of people one thing, is unacceptable. You can hide it behind a childish ‘but they do it, too’ all you want. Frankly, it wouldn’t surprise me if slash shippers did do it, too, such seems to be the nature of ‘shipping’ in general.

I get the psychology of what the sock puppet was trying to accomplish, label a group who carry a dissenting opinion one thing in the hopes that they’ll be shamed into not protesting the S/U romantic pairing so much. Too bad such a tactic is as obvious as it is reprehensible.

I think the point that needs to be made here is that a whole ton of people, from multiple demographics as far as age and gender, who do not like the S/U pairing. This has nothing to do with the popularity of slash (which I have theories about, from a psychological standpoint… I think slash became a movement because male characters outnumber female characters 3 to 1, and what female characters we do have are seldom well-rounded, fully fleshed-out and developed the way the male characters are, thus, in a very direct way, the whole slash thing is the result of the sexism inherent in Hollywood). This has been even more obvious as review after review of this new film has had negative things to say regarding the S/U pairing specifically.

I think you S/U shippers need to wrap your mind around the fact that people exist who don’t share your fascination. Simple as that.
***********************************************************************

I think you are quite wrong about your opinion that there was a lot more negative reactions to S/U. Most people that gave a negative reaction to S/U are those that don’t just like the romance it has nothing to do with the overall plot of the film from a critical point.

I also think there was way more of a negative reaction to the Kirk and Spock relationship because people felt it was a rip off/rehash of classic trek.

Most reaction to S/U by professional film critics was the same praise or criticism that most typical romances get in action films.

One of the main criticism of S/U from a professional view point is the accusation of sexism. A topic that has been discussed to death on this site and one of the praise the S/U relationship got was her beaming down to help Spock out with his fight with Khan.

A lot of fans and critics alike have pointed out that the major flaw in STiD was it been a rip off of a Trek film that could not be top.

TOS Kirk and Spock has been friends for 20 years or more. When Wrath of Khan was released .When people saw Spock die, people cried. No one has ever said they cried about jim’s death many people have even called it a parody and it doesn’t help that Spock screamed the famous/infamous

KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNN.

If Quinto wasn’t such a good factor I would have laughed out loud in cinema that scene was just almost cringe worthy.

I just so wish that the Kirk and Spock friendship had originality. The fact that it was a rip off and a rehash did nothing for me and for others (Hollywood reporter, Comingsoon.net and the New York post just to name a few agree with my opinion) I can also give evidence by all the post on IMDB and other pop culture sites.

The sad truth is that Trek’s history would not remember STiD when it comes to defining the Kirk and Spock relationship which is why I wish they had never ever done a rip off in the first place.

It’s so funny, when I saw STiD, I went back home and saw Wrath of Khan and am sorry people but Wrath of Khan is simply better than STiD. I felt for Kirk and I felt for Spock.

In STiD, I felt nothing about the reverse scene simply because we had seen it before. Also it doesn’t help that fact that we all knew Kirk was not really going to die, Unlike in WOK where no one knew if Spock was coming back or not.

The Kirk and Spock relationship was great up until it became a Wrath of Khan remake. I loved Kirk telling Spock he was going to miss him and I loved when Kirk teased him about his ears burning.

May I also add that this is my main issue with slash and why I don’t like it. Kirk and Spock work better as best friends instead of lovers. If Kirk and Spock were lovers it will take away one of Kirk distinctive characteristics which is his reputation with women.

Like another post said: one of the things that we love about Kirk is the fact that he loves women. I rather see Kirk and Spock playing 3D chess and talking about their dates and encounter with women in the past (perhaps a Chandler and Joey kind of thing) than see Kirk and Spock kissing. That is just my taste and I have no doubt that the majority of Trek fans will agree with me on this one.

In case some of you don’t know, Chandler and Joey were best friends in classic TV series called FRIENDS.

As for Spock and Uhura, The relationship kind of redeemed itself a bit from the first film because it wasn’t all kissy kissy.

I think a lot of S/U fans have mistaken Trek for something else. I don’t know what film they were watching but the when I saw Uhura beaming down to help Spock I thought that was way more romantic than anything else they had done and it took away some of the accusation of sexism that she and carol have been accused off. Sometimes romance does need to be about two people kissing all the time and having sex.

1049. KenT - June 6, 2013

What is the scale of the new reboot Enterprise? Is it the same or close in size to the TNG D & E ships? I imagine that the Vengeance would have been the largest ship in any of the Star Trek series. Was there ever an explanation as to why the reboot Enterprise is so much larger…which is cool by the way.

1050. Trekkiegal63 - June 6, 2013

#1048. Barney:

I think you are quite wrong about your opinion that there was a lot more negative reactions to S/U.

The critical reviews that negatively mention S/U are done from the feminist standpoint. For which there have been MANY. So no, I’m really not exaggerating. As both a feminist and a Trekkie, I’ve kept appraised of any review that critiqued the film from a feminist standpoint, mentioning either the Alice Eve shot as gratuitous or the S/U romance as stereotypical and relegating Uhura to the role of girlfriend or the lack of female presence within the film altogether. I have over a dozen excerpts from such reviews posted on my blog. How I’ve kept track of them is through a RSS feed through google for the term ‘star trek’. And the ones I have on my site? Not even an accurate reflection of how many there are because I posted the bulk of those before the movie was officially released in the US. In the RSS feed there have been at least one or two a day since the movie came out. In fact, here is today’s…

http://www.bdlive.co.za/life/entertainment/2013/06/06/betraying-the-star-trek-philosophy

So yeah, the feminist backlash for this film has been tremendous and S/U are a part of that.

However, I agree that Kirk and Spock make great friends and I, too, and baffled at the need for some fans to consistently want friendship portrayals to become romantic, regardless of the gender of the participants. Friendships in film are underrated, in my opinion, due to the overuse of the romance trope, but equally beautiful and moving in their own right, when allowed to blossom. To believe that all relationships must carry a sexual undertone does friendship a disservice.

1051. Trekkiegal63 - June 6, 2013

*am baffled

1052. Dennis C - June 6, 2013

@1042

I agree with many of your points but when the bean counters and studio heads get to work they’ll say, “Look, we’ll give you $150 million” and creative types respond by saying that they have to do “A” or “B” otherwise they can’t tell the story, someone will respond (as diplomatically as possible) that as creative people they can make it work.

If the budget is cut you’ve already provided a response: The script doesn’t call for a $190 million budget.

And they will.

1053. Dennis C - June 6, 2013

@1049

This has been a matter of some debate. It’s been noted here and elsewhere that this Enterprise is supposed to be only slightly larger than the original and refit Enterprises. By the time the film was released it ballooned past the size of the Enterprise D. If you use the bridge as a starting point and branch outward, the scale noted with the films release in 2009 seems a bit off.

According to the Blu ray special features:

Original Enterprise: 948′
’09 Enterprise: 2379′ ( ! )

That’s massive. That makes the new Enterprise longer than the Enterprise D, Enterprise E and the Battlestar Galactica.

Latest bit of controversy:

The new Revell model lists the scale as 1:500. That would give the Enterprise an overall length of 2700′.

There are two great cutaway posters of the Enterprise A and D which do a great job showing the scale of both ships. The bridge for the D was revealed to be just two feet deeper than the bridge for the films and original series and the scale of the two ships when placed side by side are spot on using the bridge as a guide (they did a lot of research back in the day).

So, yeah, the scale is tricky but I would argue that it’s not over 2300′ and that someone decided at some point that JJ’s Enterprise should be the biggest yet.

1054. William Bradley - June 6, 2013

Excuses, excuses.

Iron Man 3 is in the high end of the range with Skyfall and Dark Knight.

The Hulk movies, neither of which really worked, didn’t feed anything. Iron Man drove The Avengers with the help of Thor and Captain America movies which worked, but which are no bigger than Star Trek.

You’re right about one thing, though, the Marvel movies were marvelously (sorry) plotted out, by people who did not get distracted by unrelated bric a brac projects.

So Avengers hit a height that IM3 won’t because of the synergy established over a course of several years.

That doesn’t explain Bond or Batman.

>1047. star trackie – June 6, 2013
Anyone who thinks Trek can ever achieve Iron Man or Avengers numbers is delusional. Iron Man 3 benefited from the crazy worldwide domination of The Avengers, which benefited from a masterful marketing strategy that began years ago. Iron Man fed Hulk which fed Captain America which fed Thor, all which simmered for years until they all exploded onto the screen with The Avengers. It was masterful.

Trek doesn’t have the benefit of crossover marketing. It will NEVER reach those numbers. Having said that, I don’t think Paramount, for one minute, ever expected it to. What it has is a profitable franchise that continues to do incredibly well and is leaps and BOUNDS more successful than previous Trek films like Nemesis, Insurrection, etc. Steady as she goes, Star Trek lives!

1055. KenT - June 6, 2013

Thanks Dennis.

I believe Khan mentioned the Vengeance was twice the size as the Enterprise. The size of these ships were getting pretty extreme. I’m sure it is only a matter of time before cut-aways of the new Enterprise is available.

1056. Basement Blogger - June 6, 2013

@ 1021

Aurore,

Why should we have all the fun t? So, my fellow Trekkers, here is one of the videos I posted. If features the first Khan. The man. Ricardo Montalban. Can the man sell cars or can the man sell cars?!!!!

By the way, according to wikipedia, there’s not such thing as Corinthian leather. What?! Next think they’ll tell us is that there is no such thing as red matter or dilithium crystals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsg97bxuJnc

1057. Disinvited - June 6, 2013

#991. Photon70 – June 5, 2013

Thanks for that. Excellent presentation.

#1001. Photon70 – June 5, 2013

I hope you are right, but I think it extremely likely Paramount may just focus on the international. Trying to remember, but I believe Fox has an animated franchise that just kills at the international BO (ICE AGE?) and they don’t seem to sweat the $100+ million domestic. Its that approach I fear Paramount may take.

As long as it gets new Trek made, a lot of BR US Trek fans seem to express that they will be happy.

1058. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 6, 2013

“No one has ever said they cried about jim’s death many people have even called it a parody and it doesn’t help that Spock screamed the famous/infamous [Khan]”

Not true. Quite a number of posters claimed they cried when they watched this younger Kirk die. Spock’s Khan scream was possibly a bit out of place but, from another perspective, it did have a rationale behind it.

1059. Disinvited - June 6, 2013

So that’s how noted terrorist Khan Noonien Singh rewrote his curriculum vitae:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/157582-researchers-create-temporal-cloak-that-can-erase-digital-data-from-history

Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t listening:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/nsa-numbers/

1060. Other Guy - June 6, 2013

1058. Keachick

Boborci does not seem to agree that Kirk died in STID.

I know. I am as bewildered as you to learn that.

1061. RAMA - June 6, 2013

STID moves back into 4th place with $1,631,132 on Wednesday. Total is:
$186,681,718 domestic, and $334 million worldwide.

1062. Barney - June 6, 2013

1058. Keachick – rose pinenut -“No one has ever said they cried about jim’s death many people have even called it a parody and it doesn’t help that Spock screamed the famous/infamous [Khan]”

Not true. Quite a number of posters claimed they cried when they watched this younger Kirk die. Spock’s Khan scream was possibly a bit out of place but, from another perspective, it did have a rationale behind it.
************************************************************

My point here is, there was more negativity to it than people actually liking it. Also again lots of trek fans are smart. they all knew kirk was not going to die because of the tribble. The tribble was the final twist in the entire film. if Khan blood could raise a tribble from the dead then kirk getting raised from the dead was a shue in as well.

Unlike in WOK where we didn’t know if Spock was coming back,remember Nimoy wanted to move on from TREK. There was no guarantee that Trek 3 was a go.

My point is that there was no originality so this takes away a lot of emotional attachment to the film.

It’s like watching Steven Spielberg’s classic Jurassic Park 1. You see the dinosaurs for the first time and you are blown away. Then you watch Jurassic park 2 and 3 and you are like, been there…done that.

We have seen the dinosaurs already so there is no more thrill in watching the sequels. That is how I felt with STiD in comparison to WOK. I had seen it already. It even became worse when the dialogue became word for word with WOK with mini little changes. Then the KHAN scream…..That perhaps was just the worst. (Quinto was great though)

This film would have been a masterpiece if it had originality . I keep nodding my head thinking of a better way of how Kirk and Spock would have lived out their epic bromance without any help from WOK.

1063. Curious Cadet - June 6, 2013

@1061 RAMA,

What are you talkng about? It’s been 4th place every day this week, which by the way is where ST09 ranked on the same day 21. But it’s still tracking well below ST09, and will not likely cross the $200 million mark this weekend following historical trends. Indeed, it is now falling further behind ST09 every passing day and not likely to close that gap. Adjusted for inflation it’s trailing about $20 million behind ST09.

1064. porthoses bitch - June 6, 2013

I hate to say it but for all you bean counters our there…I quaranftee you if asked Paramount would tell you that TOS still hasn’t shown a profit. Movie studios use the most creative of booking methods. As I recall many years ago one of LNs sticking point with signing on for STTMP was being paaid for the usage of his likeness over the ten years since the show had ended.Shatner also participated in the profits on this. I think whaat started it was the famous “ale billboard”.

1065. Phil - June 6, 2013

@1062. Agreed, there was no punch at that point, as we had basically seen this movie before. Plot devices were being well telegraphed at this point, so we knew Kirk wasn’t going to stay dead, and Enterprise would live to fly again. Saving Private Ryan is a wonderful movie, but there is zero suspense in D-Day, the actual event. We all know the Germans lose, so it’s ridiculous to focus on that, just tell the story about characters we can feel for, to hope they succeed in near hopeless odds. STID focuses on the event, and there really wasn’t enough chemistry between characters, or empathy for then, because we all knew the outcome was pre-determined. I’ve said this before, Nimoy’s Spock should have stayed dead in WOK. Given how badly Pine’s Kirk was developed in this universe, it might have been better if he’d stayed dead as well.

1066. Craiger - June 6, 2013

Phil. I think they should have just did a complete reboot of TOS with the new cast. They could have still respected canon that way also. The prime-timeline would still be their also. However could you still make a complete reboot action packed while showing Kirk and crew growing up going to the Academy and their various assignments before they all came together on the Enterprise?

1067. JGV - June 6, 2013

Finally STID opened today here in Portugal.

I understand you couldn’t care less for my opinion since the most of you have already seen this like a month ago, but nevertheless I would like to say my peace.

First to thank all of you who have been discussing it here, I like spoilers because they boost my imagination and expectations and prepare me for my doubts and fears at the same time.

On to the movie. It is certainly a big one, it gives Star trek the summer blockbuster treatment while trying to keep the soul of it.

Of course a 40 years old guy like me who owns every episode and movie ever made will never be 100% satisfied but I was able to accept and deal with almost everything just for the sake of keeping trek alive.

The only bugger for me was the khaaaaaaann scream. I mean I even understood the reverse scene from TWOK but the scream felt awkward because it’s such an iconic line I feel it should be kept that way.

Plot wise I have a doubt, the 5 year mission: The comics have recreated some of the original 5 year mission episodes in jjverse. Now that gives us a notion of time that seems contradicted by the movie. Did all those adventures took place,like, in a year course? A bit confused there…

Still great movie, although I voted “good” in the poll because TWOK is still the best followed by TUC, FC and TVH. For me of course…

Bring on 3!

Just a sad final note as the theater was at 75% on opening night. I’m afraid our contribution will be very small for the blockbuster needs. Sorry!

1068. Keachick - rose pinenut - June 6, 2013

Pine’s Kirk is developing nicely in this universe. It would not have been better if he’d stayed dead.

The categorical statement of “No one has ever said they cried about jim’s death” is what I was disputing, because many did cry. Of course, deep down, most of us knew that somehow Kirk would come through and live, but some were not quite so sure just how and when. I had actually forgotten about the tribble scene, as had Dr McCoy…:/

1069. Mel - June 6, 2013

@ 1058. Keachick – rose pinenut

I also saw some posts in which people said, that they cried. I am not someone who cries, because of a movie, but I found Kirk’s death sad, too.

The Spock scream was the problem for me. NuSpock is just overly emotional expressive ALL THE TIME and that Khan scream was more parody like than the whole Galaxy Quest movie. There is a real problem when most full human characters show emotions more subtitle than Spock, who got famous in TOS for acting logical and for not showing his emotions all the time very clearly on his face. It makes the character less alien and less interesting. He is practically just a human with funny ears now with the difference, that other human characters have much more control over their emotions.

1070. Curious Cadet - June 6, 2013

@1067. JGV,
“Plot wise I have a doubt, the 5 year mission: The comics have recreated some of the original 5 year mission episodes in jjverse. Now that gives us a notion of time that seems contradicted by the movie. Did all those adventures took place,like, in a year course? A bit confused there…”

Yes, the comics all took place between ST09 and STID, the specific star dates in them confirm this. While some events are seemingly contradicted by the movies, it’s possible they can all be reconciled or retconned. Also, while they seem like part of the 5 year mission, this is not the case. Think of them as specific assignments Pike sent the Enterprise on to test him, and not some kind of exploratory mission in which Kirk sets the agenda (assuming that’s what the 5 year mission means, because lord knows they did enough errands for Starfleet during it).

1071. Phil - June 6, 2013

Yeah, I can imagine people cried in the theater, when they realized they could have rented WOK on Netflix for three bucks…..

1072. Marja - June 6, 2013

#1068 Keachick said “Pine’s Kirk is developing nicely in this universe. It would *not* have been better if he’d stayed dead. The categorical statement of “No one has ever said they cried about jim’s death” is what I was disputing, because many did cry. Of course, deep down, most of us knew that somehow Kirk would come through and live, but some were not quite so sure just how and when.”

I agree: Kirk is developing nicely. His character arc on his way to becoming more like Kirk in TOS is 2/3 of the way through.

Yeah, “Khannnn!” was over the top and a bad idea on the part of Mr Lindelof, in both senses. How I wish he could’ve just stayed “John Harrison”.

The rest of the scene as has been pointed out is all about the character arcs in *this* movie: Kirk begins as a friend to Spock disputing Spock’s “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” and *ends* the movie proving he understands and is enacting that concept, acting for the needs of the many; Spock begins the movie disputing with Kirk over his own [Spock's] willingness to sacrifice his life, when Kirk acts as a friend to him to save his life without respect to the Prime Directive.

Spock *ends* his character arc for STiD when he realizes Kirk is his friend and feels the same, for the first time. *This* was the biggest part of what made me cry, that Kirk is dying and Spock *only then* realizes that this man has been his friend, and realizes that he is feeling friendship for Kirk, but by that time it’s too late. I was pretty sure too that Kirk would “come back from the dead” because of the tribble scene [can yew say "telegraph"?]. Well, and the fact that there’s another movie coming out. The deep feelings brought on by Kirk’s willingness to sacrifice himself as his father, George Kirk, did in the first movie, brought up the ideal of sacrifice on behalf of one’s fellows. So I’m pretty sure that’s why I cried.

Many felt that this scene didn’t carry emotional resonance because it was a tacky repeat of a deeply-felt scene from WOK … but the big difference here is that in WOK it was the END of a 20-year friendship… in this movie it’s the BEGINNING of an epic friendship.

******

Gagghhh – on the Spock and Uhura thing, the posters above are pretty clear in their statements that *NOT ALL who dislike the relationship are slash fans*.

Some of us like the romance depicted in the films, and I don’t think we deserve ridicule because we like a romantic relationship introduced by the writers.

And, like me, they’re all sick of being labeled “fangirls” – a pretty pathetic way of dismissing and belittling those who disagree … it reduces the discussion to “fangirl” vs “rational fan” … an unfair label. Admittedly, this should be a place for rational discussions and not “ship-wars” … I regret my own early contribution to this with my observation about a small minority of vocal fans who are feminists on this board and shippers on other boards. Regrettably I used the word *some* instead of the words *a small minority*.

In concert with the Bechdel test, I, too, regret that Uhura and Marcus didn’t get to work together in a BAMF way [why couldn't Uhura have translated an obscure code used by Khan on the torpedos?] [because McCoy needed more occupation than making metaphorical statements mebbe?], or speak together professionally or as friends. I don’t feel it should be “either/or” [either a romantic moment OR a woman-friendship moment]; I’d gladly do without some violence for more dramatic and comical character interactions.

I regret that Uhura’s words to Spock had to be crammed into a scene in 90 seconds instead of a two-character scene with Spock that would have preserved her professionalism and his, but, you know, those “spoons” of violence took precedence in this film, sadly.

I appreciate the vast erudition of the feminists on this board; I agree with you in many cases, but you appear to feel it’s necessary for *every* feminist to hold the Spock and Uhura romance in disfavor.

I won’t reiterate every BAMF moment Uhura had in the film; there were several; are they *completely negated* by the “whiny girlfriend” scene[s]?

I repeat, *I am a feminist,* just not identical with many of you, and if you choose to say I’m not a feminist, well, that’s your lookout. I will never succeed in convincing you because your ideal of feminism is separate from mine. I agree to disagree, but I *don’t* agree to be patronized or belittled by those who hold a different vision from mine.

If you’d like to draft a petition to Paramount, Bad Robot &c. about “passing the Bechdel test” with better interaction for women in the films, I’ll gladly sign it, as long as it’s not an either/or:”either make the romance go away or ….” Could it not be a request for more professional and friendly conversations between the women in the films? A few more “spoons” for character development vice kicks to the ribs?

And I do most sincerely hope that you are taking the feminist cause to the boardrooms, production companies and studios. These are the profit-making centers, and if they’re aware that you and all like-minded folk are “voting with your feet” and not planning to attend any more of their films, perhaps they’ll change their scripting/directing strategies.

Just two words to say on this, “international marketing”. This means more action, less character interaction, less drama in favor of more violence, &c. [heavy sigh] … apparently overseas markets aren’t big on feminism or even female characters, so I admire “STiD” for what it’s trying to do for women, in its small way, *belied by the infamous and gratuitous underwear scene!!!*

1073. PG - June 6, 2013

The movie was good. Coming from a life long Star Trek Fan what I want most is to see a continuing Star Trek movie series. A bit long in action, short in story and short in characteer development for the crew.

Finally, after 13 movies we hear the words “5 year mission”. I beleive all serious Star Trek fans would like to see if movie studios have what it takes to take Star Trek where no man has gone before. Are the writers and directors able to take us on a serious Star Trek to advance man kind and pave a path to a more promising future?

I don’t know but the movie we saw was incredibly expensive, I hope they are able to do it again and give us another adventure soon.

1074. Karen - June 6, 2013

@1072 Marja

Well, count me as one of those feminists who, while totally seeing the larger argument re: women as girlfriends, really loves Spock and Uhura. *g*

1075. Marja - June 6, 2013

Karen, thanks for saying it!

SOUNDTRACK — does anyone know if there is a longer soundtrack for STiD available? Seems to me I read about one.

I sure would love it if Mr Giacchino could take the film and the music live around the country to be played by various city orchestras. Would definitely be worth a trip, cos I know they’d not make it to this neck of the woods.

1076. Ahmed - June 6, 2013

Anyone checked out the Star Trek video that the IRS made ?

They spent lot of money & couldn’t even get the the right uniforms!

And Bill O’Reilly today on his show on Fox News while addressing the IRS video, kept saying Mr. Spock of STAR WARS !!!

1077. Exverlobter - June 6, 2013

Best review about the film so far
(moviebob)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV0NjHILZHU

1078. Charles Trotter - June 6, 2013

“Best review about the film so far
(moviebob)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV0NjHILZHU

Yikes. Brutal.

I can tell, though, that he didn’t get some of the plot or the reasoning behind the references. I agree not everything about it worked, though.

I also agree it’s a step down from the first movie, even disappointing in some departments, but to say it’s a “bad” movie (or even close to being bad) is just insane.

The last four films of M. Night Shyamalan, on the other hand — now *those* are bad movies. Oy!

1079. Buzz Cagney - June 6, 2013

No, its not a bad movie, its just forgettable. Easily so. I know I pretty much have.
I bought ’09 on DVD on release day. This one I will wait for it to hit the bargain bins. If at all.

1080. Buzz Cagney - June 6, 2013

#806 they won’t inflict any damage. Darkness is done. Just a few stragglers will still be left to see it now. Face it, the movie has done ok but far less than expectations.

1081. Smitty - June 6, 2013

Alright people…nothing coming out this weekend. Go see INTO DARKNESS again and let’s get it over 200 million. Ticket sales ensure sequels. I’ll see you there!

1082. Smitty - June 6, 2013

You know, all this talk about the money Trek is doing..or not doing. I wonder if people realize what else is out. IRON MAN 3, FAST AND FURIOUS 6, THE GREAT GATSBY, THE HANGOVER 3, AFTER EARTH, EPIC, CROODS. According to ‘BOXOFFICEMOJO.COM’, these are all in the top ten and STAR TREK is still number 4. With all these out to see even I know it wasn’t going to make what the first one did. It’s going to do $200 million plus which in my opinion given what it’s up against is damn good. If I just went to see these movies it would cost me near $100. Families have to pick and choose all the movies they can see. The fact that TREK has done what it’s done is astounding. People still are choosing it over some of these other crappers. To tell you the truth it’s done great. Pipe down folks, these TREK movies are awesome and I’m just glad we have any to go see at all.

1083. Crewman Darnell - June 7, 2013

The RedLetterMedia review. Regrettably spot-on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWLGH0VHUVs

1084. JGV - June 7, 2013

@1070, Curios Cadet

Thanks for clearing that up, it will work for me…

1085. Disinvited - June 7, 2013

#1071. Phil – June 6, 2013

Indeed, but they can’t do it in genuine Corinthian 3D. Although, no doubt that too will come.

#1076. Ahmed – June 6, 2013

Hey, Nimoy’s said he’s very interested so, you never know.

1086. Hat Rick - June 7, 2013

I never fail to be amazed by the negativity some people have against Star Trek. And I’m talking about some of its fans. I’m not going to use quotation marks around the word “fans” when I refer to negative fans, because I know that they probably regard themselves as just as much of a fan of Star Trek as I regard myself. But to look solely at the parts of Star Trek that you don’t like, and try to score points by saying how bad they are … well, then what’s the difference between being a fan, and not?

I look at myself as being a realist in the long run. A realist, in the long run, understands that no matter how well or poorly a movie does, in the end there is one fate: We’re all dead. Yes, you heard me. So, given that, what difference does it make how much money Star Trek Into Darkness makes, let along what Paramount’s expectations were or are or will be? Are we in the business of trying to defend or justify our opinions of the New Star Trek by gloating about failure — or, shall I more properly say, alleged failure?

Enjoy the movie for what it is, folks. In the long run, it doesn’t matter. Nothing really does. But the movie for so many has made life a little better, a little more fun, and a bit of a romp in this great big universe that cares not what you or I or the President or the Pope says. Let’s be real. Let’s be happy. And let tomorrow, come what may.

1087. Trekkiegal63 - June 7, 2013

#1072 Marja:

Posting from phone so this will seem disjointed.

Yes, I think that individual character development, two women having a conversation that doesn’t revolve around men, and a romantic subplot can exist in the same film. Yes a compromise can be made between feminism and being a fan of the romance genre. My concern here is that these things are seldom, if ever, accomplished together and what’s getting cut is not the romance, but the individual character development and the portrayal of women as anything other than wife\mother\girlfriend.

I’ve been accused of supporting the kind of belief that indicates women can’t be career oriented and be in a relationship, which is both inaccurate and dismissive. I’m all about women having choices! But choices is not what is being represented, because females in films are almost always wives\girlfriends\mothers with little written to establish them as individuals.

When critics are claiming Fast and Furious is more progressive towards gender equality than Star Trek we have a problem. And that is exactly what is happening.

As for shippers and non-shippers co-existing peacefully? That’s a two way street. It would involve the shippers not labeling people as haters, slashers, racists and feminazis for not liking the pairing, nor telling them what their own views on feminism is. It would also involve not decrying all of feminism because some aspects of it condemn the romance genre (that one was not aimed at you). Its difficult to read account after account of positively horrific sexism on the “Everyday Sexism” site then come here and read about “that horrid feminism harshing on my romance squee”. Admittedly it makes me cranky. My trying to tamper my irritableness in such a scenario is a work in progress. But I’m trying.

BTW: “everyday sexism” is a site I strongly feel more people should visit.

1088. Karen - June 7, 2013

@1075 Marja

You’re welcome. *g*

As for the soundtrack, probably not. I confess I was a bit disappointed, insofar as the fabulous piano work connected to the London sequences was so truncated. But track 14, the expanded main theme, is spectacular! Yes?

1089. Jemini - June 7, 2013

:: purposely ignoring Trekkiegal63′s reply to my comment because a. details about her rudeness and repeated attempts to engage me and other people in her personal arguments don’t interest me anymore b. still trying to follow the webmaster’s advice from the other discussion ::

1048. Barney

“I think you are quite wrong about your opinion that there was a lot more negative reactions to S/U. Most people that gave a negative reaction to S/U are those that don’t just like the romance it has nothing to do with the overall plot of the film from a critical point.

I also think there was way more of a negative reaction to the Kirk and Spock relationship because people felt it was a rip off/rehash of classic trek.”

I have read tons of reviews since the movie came out and unlike some posters here I wasn’t selective in my research.
I won’t post every link and every comment because I’m sure that people are perfectly able to use google on their own, but I’ve read MANY reviews that like the S/U romance and a lot of people (especially in fan communities) that stated they didn’t like it in the first movie but liked it in this one.. which is, honestly, what I find most interesting and surprising.
I’ve read similar comments even in this site too so yeah..

The negative reactions tend to be either from “feminists” that always reduce female characters to few scenes where they show emotion and ignore all the rest (or don’t take in consideration the simple fact that Uhura isn’t less developed than McCoy, Scotty, Sulu and Chekov. It isn’t a matter of men vs women as much it’s simply a matter of her not being Kirk or Spock and it’s not realistic to expect her or Carol to get the same character development that the two main characters get) or reviews that are negative about the movie as a whole (so S/U are yet another of their nitpicks/pretext used to establish that the movie is “rotten”, for them). Some people also criticized this part of the plot not because they don’t like the relationship itself but because they had actually liked it in the first movie and they expected more. In that, S/U are part of a list of missed opportunities in this movie and a more general critique that the story isn’t enough “new” or that the writers lost track of their own winning idea of alternate reality from the first movie by having a remake of an old story instead of taking the advantage of the reboot and the AU to have something more new and unique.

” A lot of fans and critics alike have pointed out that the major flaw in STiD was it been a rip off of a Trek film that could not be top.
TOS Kirk and Spock has been friends for 20 years or more. When Wrath of Khan was released .When people saw Spock die, people cried. No one has ever said they cried about jim’s death many people have even called it a parody and it doesn’t help that Spock screamed the famous/infamous ”

In fact, the whole “fanservice” criticism that is being stressed by some reviews is all about the Kirk/Spock relationship and the ending of the movie with the whole re-make of Khan.

The Wall Street Journal’s John Anderson has mocked JJ Abrams saying that K/S seems “in love” and that the characters in the iconic bromance are starting to look like “very respectful caricatures” of themselves.

“I just so wish that the Kirk and Spock friendship had originality. The fact that it was a rip off and a rehash did nothing for me and for others (Hollywood reporter, Comingsoon.net and the New York post just to name a few agree with my opinion) I can also give evidence by all the post on IMDB and other pop culture sites. ”

well, with all the criticism about Spock being OOC because he hugged Uhura in the other movie, some people surely sound a tad hypocritical now if they justify how the character is written in his interactions with Kirk.

Not gonna lie, it’s my least favorite dynamic in the reboot. Sadly.
It’s the whole “we’re destined to be friends” that I don’t like and probably never will. It sort of ruined it all for me because it makes their relationship incredibly forced (thus the whole making Spock OOC in that particular scene) especially compared to other dynamics like Kirk/Bones, Kirk/Uhura and Spock/Uhura that, on the other hand, don’t have this element of “hey you must be friends with this person because you were in the other reality” and just seem more authentic to me for that reason.
I think it was a mistake to have Spock Prime in the previous movie telling K/S that they would be friends and it would “define them both”. It spoiled the relationship and denied them of the chance to develop it on their own and more naturally like other friendships might develop in this reality.

1090. IDIC Lives! - June 7, 2013

@1082 Absolutely, brother (or sister)!

@Jemini Part of the magic of Trek is that we all perceive someone in the crew we identify with or we perceive the possibility of a relationship(s) between two members of the crew being what we would ideally wish to find for ourselves.

So we will never convince each other (“we” being us Trekkers) that Spock/Uhura is vibrant, right and fresh while the Kirk and Spock friendship is rehash and/.or not legitimate in STID like it was in TOS and– along the same line, if you love McCoy, “of course” he did not get enough screen time, if you are a intimate lover of The Enterprise, “of course” it got too beat up and never had a chance to fight, and all this and more goes on in discussion infinitely. You probably won’t make me, for instance, into caring deeply if S/U keep going or break up and this aspect of Trek goes away.

Just saying, you can berate the Kirk and Spock relationship all you want – at least in STID – but for me, the magic is THERE, it is the center piece of Trek and always was.

Perhaps when the Vulcans talked about “infinite diversity in infinite combinations” they really meant it! This includes K/S, S/U, a bromance (but not K/S), Scotty getting a hard-on for his engines and so much more.

I’ve always felt that Trek has a life of its own; TOS channeled into the “Trek reality” best but STID is in touch with this magic stream too. Are we reading the human future if we don’t blow ourselves up and/or destroy the vibrant life of our Mother Planet?

I personally think so, but IDIC!! to you and everyone else.

1091. Marja - June 7, 2013

1002, Wm Bradley, I think Hanks would be boss but I also think Denzel Washington would make a good choice, based on his also-superior acting skilz – I seem to recall he may be a Trekker also ….

1090, IDIC Lives! How I WISH Trek could become a Game of Thrones-type series! It would have so much more time to explore the relationships we all treasure. Like Scotty and his “bairns,” LOL. I miss him saying “mah poor wee bairns”, yes I do.

Gagghhh I just want to see more of EVERYONE having dramatic and comical moments, professional moments: in the briefing room, ready room, and a *redesigned* Engineering and Comms Engineering.

Uhura doing BAMF translating in a first-contact scenario and going into action when the peaceful mission goes awry. Uhura as Comms Officer having secrets only she and the captain know, because she’s the one who decodes/translates all messages. Imagine the tension if war was imminent or declared! Marcus showing expertise other than weaponry or underwear modelling. Nurse Chapel, Yeoman Rand, Charlene Masters, GAILA, all working aboard, doing a kick-boxing class and discussing their jobs or families in the jacuzzi.

Kirk, Spock, and McCoy having a furious discussion, Scotty standing up to Kirk again! Marcus and Uhura having a friendship but without too much silly “girl talk’ – yes – it can be done! Bitching about the service could be just one basis. Recollections of being highly intelligent women (possibly post-grads?) at the Academy and Uhura putting up with Kirk’s hijinks, or Carol’s feelings about her dad then and now.

Uhura and Spock waking to a red alert and exchanging a look as they dash into their uniforms and to the Bridge – “this may be the last look we ever exchange” kinda look or (sorry, guys), a quick kiss before they leave their quarters with one of those soulful Spock – Uhura looks. Furiously arguing over a difference of approach to a first contact situation, or a diplomatic situation turning to crap before their eyes. Because Spock and Uhura are both cultural experts, it comes with the territory of being a translator or language teacher.

A show like “Balance of Terror”! A show like “Journey to Babel,” but with Sarek’s sadness over Amanda not being at his side to smooth other diplomats’ ruffled feathers, and the other complexities of that episode. There are so many good eps to draw from. How about an “Enterprise Incident” with the complications ensuing from Uhura’s keeping a stiff upper lip while Spock woos a Romulan female commander?

Yes, yes, a “Doomsday Machine” with a twist, and with a wonderful character actor or a star turn by D. Washington or T. Hanks. A “bottle” show cheaper than the giant space battles or landing party kinda shows, and who knows, maybe famous Trekfan actors would agree to work for cheap.

Romulans like the Romulans in TOS, Romulans with the honor sensibility that got ripped from them and applied to the Klingons in TNG -not a terrible thing for the Klingons btw, but I hated the TNG concept of Romulans.

Anyways, I hope not a total pipe dream. Even if these are only done with super digital animation/drawing technique, it’d be lovely to hear our new reboot cast doing the voice acting, which they can do from wherever they are.

But I’d love a 10- or 12- episode series per year with generous funding and a huge following, say on Netflix, or, more likely, a premium channel … :( (can’t afford TV much less HBO … would love to be able to stream it on internetz). This would allow the actors flexibility for other projects while giving us more character-oriented stories and long plot arcs – imagine a plot arc over 5 eps, followed by another, with significant sub-plots.

Failing that, a “miniseries” every ten months would be lovely

A fan can dream, a fan can dream.

1092. The Sinfonian - June 7, 2013

@1060. Kirk died? Really? I thought it was the Brave Pirate Roberts, and he was only MOSTLY dead. Miracle McCoy came along and saved him with a nice mutton, lettuce, and tomatoe sandwich, right? Or something like that.
.
People neglect that quite a bit of this script for STID included direct riffs on The Princess Bride. Khan is the six-fingered man. My name is Inigo Spock. You killed my Captains. Prepare to die.

1093. An Old Codger - June 7, 2013

http://news.yahoo.com/star-trek-explains-nsa-093038494.html

1094. Phil - June 7, 2013

@1092. Hadn’t thought of that, good catch. By the time someone goes through all the dialogue in STID it’ll turn out the movie is a mash up of 30-40 others….

Did anyone notice that Spock seems to be suffering from Peter Parker Syndrome? Every time Peter Parker tells us why it’s vital his identity remain secret guarantees he’ll reveal that identity to someone. So, every time now when Spock gives us a lecture about the emotionless state of Vulcans, that guarantees we will see him get angry, have a break down, or start weeping.

1095. gavabot - June 7, 2013

Was I the only one who was secretly hoping that Spock and Uhura would break up? (timeline repairing itself)

1096. Phil - June 7, 2013

@1072. If, by developing nicely, you mean he is showing a disturbing trend toward self destruction, then I’d agree. Back in Trek09, then cadet Kirk was moments away from being shown the door at the academy because of poor performance and cheating. Fate intervened in the form of a pissed off Romulan. This time around, for yet another round of dereliction of duty and disobeying orders he’s in the process of being stripped down to cadet status again and barring intervention by Pike it was implied that Kirk was about to be shown the door…again. And again, fate intervened in the form of Khan, who was nice enough to kill Kirks new captain and the Admiral who was wanting him out of the service all together. So, what does Kirk do? Lead his away team into a no-win battle with Klingons, where his bacon gets pulled out of the fire by Khan and Uhura, and even after concluding he’s been played badly by Khan and Marcus, still manages to get the s**t kicked out of his ship and a portion of his crew killed. It’s a sad state of affairs when Scotty is the mature voice of leadership in a crisis. In this universe, it seems like it’s Kirk that hits the bottle when things are not going his way.

I don’t deny that of the various character developments in the new universe, I like what they have done to Kirk the least. Others have observed that the last few times Shatner played Kirk that the performance seemed to descend into self-parody. I don’t disagree with that observation. The problem is, the production team seems to have decided to build the new Kirk around Shatners parody of the character. It’s a shame, because it’s a raw deal for the character, and for Pine, who has bad material to work with to try and convince the audience that this Kirk is also that noble character from long ago.

1097. Megan Fox's Agent - June 7, 2013

Everyone. Please go here to discuss Star Trek’s real future.

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/30/fan-production-star-trek-continues-releases-first-episode/

Seriously, Not bragging but you all have to see my post at 477.

1098. Curious Cadet - June 7, 2013

1096. Phil,

Wow. When you put it that way, and it is 100% accurate assesment by the way, a new pattern begins to emerge. A very sad and dark pattern, one which must be completely ignored to enjoy the film, which Abrams mostly accomplishes by mind-numbing action.

Maybe that’s the difference between ST09 and STID … A least the worst thing Kirk did was cheat. We’ve all cheated. But in STID, the penalty for foolishly promoting a cadet to captain merely because he got lucky following a hunch, results in real consequences — namely the death and destruction of those and that for which he is solely responsible. For all the debating that went on apologizing and justifying Kirk’s swift promotion following the last film, STID points out exactly why it’s ridiculous and why the modern military doesn’t really operate this way.

The difference between Prime Kirk and this one, is that PK was able to make and learn from mistakes that weren’t so large as to put his entire ship and crew in jeopardy as he rose through the ranks and earned his captaincy over the course of a decade.

Why are Orci and Kurtzman in such a hurry here? Albeit Kirk gets a late start but why does he have to go from cadet to captain a decade ahead of his Prime counter-part without any of the experience? One little caption, ’5 years later’ would have solved so many problems and possibly led the writers down a completely different path.

Given that they’ve gone down this path, alt Kirk represents for me the current air of entitlement that seems to permeate high school and college age kids today. As reality shows have demonstrated, everybody’s a star. And the dependence on software and the Internet for commerce has made the youngest of our work force the most important. Experience no longer matters. So why should anyone expect to climb up rough the ranks? So Here’s a generation who can identify with Kirk, an aimless underachiever given to deviant behavior, misunderstood by everyone, and drinking away the pain of never knowing his father. But inside he’s better than everyone, if only someone would come by and notice. Boo hoo.

ST09 then painted an optimistic and rosey picture for Kirk. STID does exactly the opposite, as you point out. It makes Kirk look like an idiot, unable to make the right decision, especially under fire. Getting people killed and his ship destroyed, until the only thing he can do is sacrifice himself. Kids going in for a little light entertainment don’t want to see that. Kirk is a mirror of them, and yet the optimistic picture ST09 closed with is tarnished, this guy can’t do anything right, and in the end must pay for his ineptness with his own life.

So what now? If Kirk is such a poor leader after only a year of being out of the academy, is he really going to gain the equivalent of over a decade of experience serving as a junior officer, by learning from the horrific mistakes he made in STID? Did Starfleet make him captain this time because he sacrificed himself? What’s the criteria? Honestly, he was stripped of his captaincy, fought for by a now dead admiral, reinstated by a criminal, and then proved he was not remotely ready to command, by losing many of his crew and his ship. Who gives even a decorated veteran captain a new command with a record like that? Who’s Kirk’s champion now? I mean, here’s a punk kid, a loose canon who’s flaunting the chain of command and taking matters into his own hands (as disputed by the comics), culminating int he Nibiru incident (the straw that broke the camels back). Then he gets his crew killed and ship crippled. Yes Prime Kirk was a rebel too, but the big difference is Prime Kirk was a well respected officer having worked his way up through years of proven service demonstrating his value. When Prime Kirk broke the rules, he had years of experience behind him… What does Abrams’ Kirk have?

1099. Charla - June 7, 2013

1081, 1082 Smitty- *applause* &…. yes what you said!!

1100. Marshall - June 7, 2013

@1095 gavabot

Not at all. But hey, you never know. There’s still one more film left lol

1101. Mike - June 7, 2013

@1089

I’m not sure what critics you’re looking at, but all the major ones I looked praised the Spock and Kirk friendship and Quinto/Pine chemistry as being the highlight of the film (next to Cumberbatch). Uhura wasnt even mentioned more than a few times, let alone her relationship with Spock, other than to say “yep its still there and all…ok lets move on now”. I DO think you are selective in the reviews to mention only one that criticized the friendship like that. Unless you are talking about blog from angry fans that is another thing entirely.

Am I surprised that the Spock and Kirks friendship is YOUR least favorite part of the reboot? Lol not at all. Seems to be what most people enjoy though, of course you have people that will never be happy but for the most part they actually understand what the death scene meant to their growing friendship.

This is Star Trek, there will never be a lack of Kirk and Spock. They together will always be the focal point of this series. If that interferes with peoples love of other characters or romances, sorry thats too bad, but its not gonna change. Prime Spock telling them of a defining relationship isn’t a spoiler. What? Did you go into the movie thinking they were NOT going to be friends? And it didn’t instantly make them magic BFFs, they still have issues that are being worked on in STID. We don’t have a series or as many movies to establish this like TOS did, they’re doing what they can with the time they have. I think it’s great.

Kirk and Spock were always gonna end up being friends even if it wasn’t told to them. Prime Spock told him this so he knew what he could have and not leave for New Vulcan, which Spock was planning to do. PS also mentioned how them working together to defeat Nero showed how great they can work together and rely on each other. It’s obviously something Spock noticed, because he had a choice. He chose to go back to the Enterprise and join Kirk, it’s not like he was forced. I don’t know where people think that that is somehow “forcing” a friendship on them.

For the record Bob, I had tons of people crying around me in the theater. First three times I saw it there was always someone trying to hide their tears lol a lot of it has to do with Chris and Zachs performance there. They really do bring out the best in each other. Great scenes :)

@1090-
Great post! I totally agree :)

1102. Craiger - June 7, 2013

What happened to Star Trek news on this site? I guess Trekmovie has gone into another one of its hibernation periods?

1103. Barney - June 7, 2013

@1101. Mike – June 7, 2013

I think you misunderstood what she was saying, I am not sure what she is saying either. However I would say that the Kirk and Spock friendship was great up until the end.

Pine and Quinto nailed their parts. I just think what people struggle with is the rip off. The kirk and Spock friendship was pure bliss till it became a serious parody of WOK and that Quinto’s scream.

My gosh, one trek fan even compared it to Darth Vader’s screaming NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO in Revenge of the Sith in other words. Spock screaming Khan was terrible.

The Kirk and Spock friendship lacked any form of originality, it was basically a rehash based on a Trek film that cannot be toped.

We waited 4 years, 4 years and JJ gave us nothing NEW.

1104. Josh C. - June 7, 2013

Seems like Star Trek held up pretty good this week. Tuesday-Thursday dropped from $8.7 million last week to $5.3 million this week, a drop of only about 40%.

If that drop holds for the weekend, it could still eek out a $10 million weekend or so (60% of last weekend’s total would be almost $10 million on the nose). In any case, it looks like should have at least $195 million after this weekend, and should break $200 million next week.

Also for the record, this is day #22, which is the day Star Trek 2009 broke $200 million (though it was a Friday). For day 21 vs. day 21, which was the last weekday vs. weekday comparison, Into Darkness is still running about $10 million behind 2009 domestically

1105. Mark - June 7, 2013

@1203 Barney

I do think they could have done better than a twist of WOK, a film and villain I don’t think can ever be topped (Cumberbatch is a superb actor and chilling villain, but he is no Montalblan IMO) but I wasn’t as bothered by it as I expected.

I feel the last half hour of the film was very rushed, from the warp core and Kirks death/zombie tribble to the big fight scene ending with a few distracting phaser blasts from Uhura.

The thing with the death scene was, as someone said before, the moment the friendship and that bond really begins for them. Could it have been done better? Yea of of course, but on the second viewing I sort if just looked at it from a new perspective and tried to forget about TWOK to make it work.

As for the scream and it being OOC for Spock, well, since the moment they met Kirk has always had a way of getting to Spock like no one else. Nothing about their friendship as ever been logical. If anyone else had goaded Spock about his mother besides Kirk I can’t imagine Spock losing it like that. So if the Khan scream by Spock HAD to be in there, I guess the death of Kirk would be the only thing to make him finally snap like that. *shrugs*

At least I want to believe that to make it not seem silly lol. Really though it didn’t bother me as much as I think it does others. The people in my theater LOVED it opening night. Some dude even jumped out of his chair and cheered. A lot of audience members were annoyed by him that night lol

1106. IDIC Lives! - June 7, 2013

#1098 Your report on Kirk in STID being like entitled kids of today and your analysis of all he did wrong/foolishly, is, IMO, ridiculous. He was sent by one of the highest ranking officers of Star Fleet to torpedo Khan. He did not but was rather bringing Khan back to face justice, not hot-headed nor entitled at all. He listened to Khan about the coordinates and the 72, and he realized the torpedoes were not as Admiral Marcus had presented them. He stood up to Marcus and had Scotty check out the Vengeance (when he initially agreed with Marcus to take the torpedoes aboard, he had just lost Pike as well as the fact he actually respected Marcus’ status. You can’t fault him for being rebellious on that count). Kirk jumped to warp but did not know Marcus now had the ability to catch the Enterprise at warp. Kirk’s mission of space flying over to the Vengeance worked, except there he was damned if he did (aligning with Khan for a little while) and damned if he didn’t (thus Khan was very angry Kirk double crossed him by having him phaser-stunned). Khan’s strength was far greater than Spock’s, so Kirk didn’t have a chance physically but he tried. Kirk always TRIES, in TOS also. Finally, he gave his life (well, almost) for his crew. What the hell do you want form him in STID?? Sure it was unbelievable to make him captain when he was a cadet in 2009 movie but for goodness sakes, can you just nitpick STID and not go on about 2009? Kirk is “my” character, I love Shatner’s Kirk but I don’t agree of your critique of Kirk in STID.

1107. Curious Cadet - June 7, 2013

1104. Josh C,

Why are we doing the play-by-play of the box office? Where are the Trekmovie folks? Haha

I think it’s pretty clear, it’s all over for the domestic box office at this point, STID is in a steady, predictable decline at least $10 million behind ST09, and will likely fall further behind, closing in the ballpark of $230 million or so. Combined with inflation and 3D tickets, definitely a disappointing turnout in the US.

The numbers I’m interested in now are the well performing international numbers. Those will tell the whole story of how successful STID is going to be. Too bad we have to wait a week at a time to get them.

1108. Lukas - June 7, 2013

Kind of cool:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mer/multimedia/pia17078.html

1109. Frank - June 7, 2013

The movie was finally released over here in The Netherlands, so I have finally seen it. :)

Overall I think it was a great movie and a great Star Trek movie. It was spectacular. And they have done the trailers very well, because I had made up a kind of story I thought it would be, and the actual story was quite different. Great job.

A few ‘small’ things bothered me, which didn’t make it the best Star Trek movie for me:
1) The pacing of the movie is really really fast. A little more pause would have been welcome.
2) The reversed death scene from TWOK struck me as very cheesy. I personally would have loved to see a completely different sequence.

1110. OldDarth - June 7, 2013

Fun blockbuster movie.

Mediocre Trek movie.

Still waiting for a Trek movie that handles both equally well.

1111. steve - June 7, 2013

anyone notice the ceiling of the bridge is different in this movie
at the end of the 2009 movie when the E was being pulled into the worm hole, they show the ceiling starting to rip apart, and its red.

in this one its white, with a blue centre

1112. Captain, USS Northstar - June 7, 2013

@ 1106:

Nice analysis, particularly when you say “Kirk always TRIES.” Reminds me of his great line from (of course) TWOK: “I don’t like to lose.”

I think Pine is doing a fantastic job as Kirk — respecting what Shatner has done in the past to define the character while branching out and making the character his own. This was a great “Second Coming of Age” story for Kirk; the first being ST09.

In ST09 — from bar stool to captain’s chair; in STID — from being riddled with uncertainty and inner conflict (“I don’t know what I’m supposed to do. I only know what I can do”) to acceptance and confidence.

At the end of STID we end up in the place where we more or less meet Kirk in TOS: in the early stages of the 5-year mission.

In similar ways, Spock is evolving to that same “starting place.” Remember in TOS, early on he smiles, he raises his voice, he has a host of mannerisms that eventually get left behind as TOS grows and Spock becomes more “logical.”

I think we’re all going to be pleased with how we find the characters when we meet them in the next movie.

I also wanted to respond to another post, I can’t recall the number but I believe the handle was “Marja” or “Marta” or similar — the post was her plea for some kind of new TV series, a la “Game of Thrones” — 10 to 12 episodes in a season on HBO or Showtime or similar.

Totally agree 100%! Since you are dreaming of a new series, I’ll dream right along with you. I think this cast, this Enterprise and this Alternate Universe would be awesome on the small screen with plenty of time left for the actors to pursue other projects if they chose.

1113. Charles Trotter - June 7, 2013

1102. Craiger

“What happened to Star Trek news on this site? I guess Trekmovie has gone into another one of its hibernation periods?”

Anthony’s been playing with the red matter again and got pulled into another black hole.

He’ll be back sometime in 2016. :-P

1114. Todd - June 7, 2013

Star Trek now is more like Star Wars. J.J. Abrams is ruining it. If you think this is true star trek, you haven’t watched none of them, you are new. Gene Roddenberry is probably rolling in his grave right now.

1115. Marja - June 8, 2013

1069, Mel, AU Spock is not emotional ALL THE TIME; he has significant outbursts, but as I’ve said, I think that’s PTSD evincing itself. He is quite logical in the shuttle scene when less-perceptive viewers – IMHO – viewed him as “jealous”, I saw him as analyzing starting right then and there why “Wallace” was assigned to the Enterprise as science officer. When he questions Kirk, it’s doubly puzzling to him b/c Marcus’ assignment was made without advance orders copied to the captain of the ship she’d be serving on, Enterprise. Normally a captain would be apprised ahead of time. Even Kirk is frowning as he looks over her orders, as if wondering too.

At any rate, I saw a completely different Spock than you did in TOS. Nimoy was a master of the subtle expression: amusement, insouciance (actually he wasn’t so subtle with that one), puzzlement (the raised eyebrow), curiosity (the tilted head) amazement, disappointment, impatience (The Spock Sigh), asperity (exchanges with McCoy) on and on. And he was capable of anger – otherwise Kirk’s “cure” for the spore-induced torpor at Omicron Ceti III wouldn’t have worked on him, insulting his parents, especially his mother (which causes Spock to try to kill Kirk …. hmmm).

Quinto *may* communicate a bit less subtly (imho he doesn’t), but before the volcano, IN the volcano, in the shuttle scene with “Wallace”, the scene in Pike’s office, the “when it became relevant” scene, the brig scene, and many of the Bridge scenes, he’s as Spockian as Nimoy.

1092, Hahaha “Princess Bride” re-hash – uh-oh … and here some fans thought this was a re-hash of WOK. You have surely shed the true light on what it is!

1113, CharlesT, Well, one must admit, we all got a bit spoiled with 4 and 5 posts per day ;) wheeeee it was great while it lasted!

1112, Capt Northstar, It was me, and let’s hold that hope!!! As long as the Bad Robot team don’t ruin it with a stupid ending like they did ‘Fringe’ and ‘Lost’; (neither of which I could see b/c I don’t own a TV) exciting a stream of very negative fan comments (hmmmm …) … unavoidable absences for the actors could be explained with temporary assignments elsewhere for the officers they portray.

Phil and Curious, I can definitely agree with many of your points! When you look at it that way SF would have to be ca-ray zeee to promote Kirk permanently but it is after all an action-adventure, where every hero has boatloads of luck at his disposal (and sadly, it’s most often a “he” – again, that demmed 16 – 25 y/o age bracket)

I wish (as someone else said) that ST2 could have been Kirk becoming more seasoned serving as First Officer under his mentor, Pike, while Spock could serve as Science Officer and another senior advisor to Pike … but apparently it “couldn’t” be that, b/c who are these movies made for, primarily? The folk in the 16 – 25-y/o age bracket. SOME of those who, as you say, often have a sense of inflated self-esteem or entitlement.

Your scenarios seem quite a bit more reality-based than ST has usually been, although the emphasis on Kirk’s “flash” and brilliance take precedence in this Altverse over the “walking stack of books” we remember from reports of TOS Kirk’s academy days.

I think in part what the writers/producers are trading on is the concept of “these are dark times indeed for Starfleet Officers such as we” … Nero’s incursion 25 years before, and his wholesale destruction of KELVIN altered the Starfleet we knew of old. Perhaps many captains have a shorter time to earning the chair. Pike told Kirk “you can have your own ship in 8 [years].” EIGHT YEARS! Whut?

I don’t know, and for Abrams’ Star Trek, I do willingly suspend disbelief quite a bit. I agree with so many of your points, especially the deaths of the Enterprise crew, but this is a real-world perception from those of us who’ve been around, and a couple of us [apparently] in the military. Kirk IS irresponsible … up until he says “I’m sorry” … that’s when it really hits him that his stupidity and freewheeling behavior have come home to roost in a most painful way … but, agreed, in the real world he’d be busted back to zero.

And yet, 1106 makes some points too, except for calling your ideas ridiculous — 1106 is making allowances for the short time available in action movies to advance characterizations, and Kirk (in the dramatic sense, not the real military-type sense, or even contemporary business sense) goes thru a significant change in character, influenced by major tragedies — which in action movies these days, seem to happen willy-nilly, as a by-product of all the action [sad laugh], massive destruction on a scale only seen in Dresden WWII or on 9/11 … all for shock value and a frisson of sadness.

So for all dramatic intents and purposes, Kirk’s willingness to sacrifice himself shows his true understanding of a captain’s role in protecting and serving his crew in the noblest way. The fact that it wouldn’t have been necessary without (in our realistic view) “massive and tragic screw-ups” does not count in today’s magical action-adventure films.

Many folk here have said that Trek would be best served by a quality TV series, in which such character development could happen at a more realistic pace, with more opportunity for characters to reflect on, and learn from, their actions.

So I think IDIC Lives made some good points here: “Kirk jumped to warp but did not know Marcus now had the ability to catch the Enterprise at warp.” Kirk took a chance, and in TOS his “knowledge” and tactic would’ve had a bigger chance of succeeding – but then no action drama over Earth. (Curiously close to Earth, actually.) “Kirk’s mission of space flying over to the Vengeance worked, except there he was damned if he did (aligning with Khan for a little while) and damned if he didn’t (thus Khan was very angry Kirk double crossed him by having him phaser-stunned). Khan’s strength was far greater than Spock’s, so Kirk didn’t have a chance physically but he tried. Kirk always TRIES, in TOS also.” True enough – and in AUTrek, he seems to get his ass kicked with regularity when he tries, or when he’s arrogant (the bar in Riverside).

Thinking about it today, I think the regular ass-whoopin’s Kirk is getting are the writer’s way of “tempering” him, of teaching him humility? Mebbe …

1116. Stephan - June 8, 2013

1114. Todd:

Not true. I know every single episode and I think Into Darkness is one of the best trek movies. And I cannot stand Star Wars. :-)

1117. Stephan - June 8, 2013

I think Anthony deserves a break after his full time news reporting over the last weeks.

1118. Charles Trotter - June 8, 2013

1114. Todd

“Star Trek now is more like Star Wars. J.J. Abrams is ruining it. If you think this is true star trek, you haven’t watched none of them, you are new. Gene Roddenberry is probably rolling in his grave right now.”

I’m curious as to what you believe to be “true Star Trek.” Into Darkness has most of the key ingredients I know of: themes of friendship and of bettering oneself, political and social commentary masked in sci-fi action, an optimistic view of the future and of humanity (battling and triumphing over our own flaws and evils), key character moments, etc.

Whether or not these ingredients work well together within the context of the film and the franchise is a matter of opinion, but one can’t deny that they are there. Is it “true Star Trek?” I would say, yes. Is it “workable” Star Trek? That’s for each of us to decide.

I will say, however, that STID is missing *one* key ingredient that is just as essential to ‘Star Trek’ as those listed above: a sense of awe and wonder. That special something that comes with exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and new civilizations and going boldly where no man/one has gone before. This movie lacked that special something, which I guess is understandable considering the story, but hopefully there’s more of it in the next movie.

1119. Jemini - June 8, 2013

1101. Mike
“Am I surprised that the Spock and Kirks friendship is YOUR least favorite part of the reboot? Lol not at all. Seems to be what most people enjoy though, of course you have people that will never be happy but for the most part they actually understand what the death scene meant to their growing friendship. ”

LOL Did I inadvertently make some people come out of the closet? LOL
~the K/S shippers never post here~

I don’t get what you’re trying to tell me here, that I dislike it only because I like S/U and the other relationships more? oh well, I thought that you guys didn’t like this kind of “hasty generalizations” and that we were all entitled to our opinions.
But I guess people aren’t entitled to dislike the K/S dynamic (btw I’m not the only one that raised that criticism, even in this page) .
You were so preoccupied in defending them from the evil hater (aka me) that you didn’t even get my point.
For instance, I never said that I hate them or something or that I don’t expect to see them becoming friends (that’s dumb). Perhaps it’s because I like the friendship (the original one) that I have a hard time connecting with this version. What I criticize is the execution, though your reaction is exactly the problem I have with them in the reboot. This insistence that people *MUST* love them only because they’re K/S and that we all have to take for granted that they are friends as if this alone is an excuse to justify any out of characterization and contrivance of the plot.

…and then the Spock/Uhura fans were defensive and didn’t accept different opinions…

(thank you “IDIC Lives!” and “Mike” ;) )

1120. IDIC Lives! - June 8, 2013

#1091, Marja – Your dream is incredibly wonderfully what-should-be! –And should have been since about 1972 (allowing for the sad fact TOS was cancelled; how great it would have been to complete the 5 year mission in1970). Of course the medium has changed and your ideas for today’s distribution are exactly how it should be done today.

In fairness to JJ, Bob and all, to have a major film on sheer exploration as TOS did usually, would be difficult in today’s world. “Prometheus” for instance began as exploration with science speculation aspects but ended up in a big mess of a meltdown, alien attack, naked woman running around with thing coming out of stomach, and what not. The ending of “Prometheus” makes STID look downright intellectual.

I guess my point is, Trek is made for episodic adventure, which has been said before. Maybe that’s why ALL the movies are not quite Kirk, not quite Spock, not quite Trek and the “lesser” characters usually end up with even less. (That being said, to quote Prime Spock, STID in many ways comes closest to TOS in spirit , fresh energy).

Trekkers want to see Uhura’s quarters (not to mention Kirk’s and Spock’s quarters), they want to see the crew’s game of volleyball – all the things you mentioned Marja, with some additions (like volleyball). This would also bring TOS and TNG into harmony because TNG had info on living on the ship but IMO–never mind– I am a hopeless TOS person. I would like to install a holodeck on the Enterprise, though.

But do the millions who go to a see a summer blockbuster want to see what Trekkers want to see? We are basically displaced crew members living in 2013 and holding down boring jobs :-) Anyway, to please Trekkers, JJ and company have to face leaving the general public puzzled and bored, and visa verse. Trekkers don’t want to see another super-villain and the fight for the universe blockbuster. We want to explore the galaxy!

Next film MUST go into the galaxy! But when you look at STID objectively, I feel it did a good job in an almost impossible circumstance – to make money with a blockbuster and yet have it “Trek” – to the nitpicking perfection of Trekkers. And of course we vary immensely amongst ourselves.

#1118 Did you make someone come out of the closet? Don’t flatter yourself! I realize you are important, but really! And no one is making you love anything. No one is taking your opinion away from you or censoring you.

However, there is a Trek paradigm but if you wish to write fanfic, for instance, and have an entire novel about Spock and Uhura at home in their apartment, go ahead. However, certainly Trek has established itself enough to have a solid paradigm; that paradigm is with Kirk and Spock (and McCoy) as they main characters.

You wouldn’t ask that Shakespeare’s “Romeo and Juliet” begin to feature Juliet’s brother and his love affair with the town crier. But we do all get your point by now. In order to have S/U featured even more, you have to downgrade the Kirk and Spock friendship because there can be only one main focal point. You can talk around it, but this is what you are trying to do.

You are free to “criticize the execution” all you wish and “my reaction is exactly the problem you have….” Excuse me for living and giving you an additional problem.

Look, we get your point re S/U. Give it a rest.

The focal point of Trek was set by Roddenberry and others almost 50 years ago. JJ and company have stretched this with the S/U romance and in other ways with the alternate timeline. That’s fine, Trek can bend and be flexible.

1121. IDIC Lives! - June 8, 2013

#118 Do you mean that the term “K/S” cannot be uttered lest it indicate someone is coming out the closet?? Sure, quickly slap tags on people who dare to refer to “forbidden” subjects. Did you burn a witch or two in your past life?

1122. Barney - June 8, 2013

# Jemini

Honestly, can you respectfully shut up. I don’t see FRIENDS fans calling Joey and Chandler gay, neither do I see Lord of the Rings fans calling Frodo and Sam gay. A lot of series like Friends and LOTR were driven by the friendship between two men who shared a very platonic brotherly love. Kirk and Spock are no different.

Why are you even so defensive? It’s not like Spock and Uhura broke up. they are still a couple last I watched the film and. Spock did tell her that he did care. so what more did you want? A sex scene?

Not everyone that hates the S/U relationship are gay and are slash fans.

You are perhaps, one of those African American girls living out their fantasies through S/U. you don’t even care about Trek as a science fiction/fantasy series. all you care about is the romance.

Just so you know, Trek is not Gone with the Wind or Casablanca.

1123. Noalb - June 8, 2013

Just a thought- I went and saw it last night for the second time (Liked it a lot more too, btw) and I was expecting the theatre to be empty since it had been out for awhile…. boy was I wrong! Sold out! Maybe this movie isn’t the flash in the pan like most other summer blockbusters, but a film that smolders and stays consistent.

1124. Bamasi - June 8, 2013

1122 – Glad to hear it Noalb. As I recall Trek 09 had strong “legs” as well. This movie deserves to do well at the box office. It wasn’t the perfect Trek movie or the best, but it was great.

1125. Ensign Ricky - June 8, 2013

I saw this on May 17 and the theater I went to only had about 30 people watching. Small town theater but I expected more to be there. Was not the town I live in as it did not open there. Finally arrived in my town yesterday and I went again. This time there were about 25 people there. Also a small town theater. I have to say the second time viewing this movie was better than the first. All the things I missed the first time around I caught the second time. Still think it is a very good movie.

1126. Philip - June 8, 2013

Here’s my review… I do think though after a certain period of time it’s easy for your thoughts to change on how you feel about a film. That initial burst of excitement can either lead to less fond memories or greater…

http://pgsrealmoviereviews.blogspot.com/2013/06/star-trek-into-darkness-one-hell-of.html

1127. Josh C. - June 8, 2013

1107. Curious Cadet -

I think $230 may be a bit optimistic because Oz got $233 million and it’s tracking slightly (about $2 miillion) behind it.

However, this Friday came in with very good numbers for Friday – $3.2 million, only a drop of about 28% from last Friday. That means $200 million may be attainable this weekend after all.

The past two weekends, Fridays have made up about a quarter of the weekend total. if that keeps up, it would get something around $12 – $13 million. It needs $11.6 million to hit $200 million by Sunday.

If it DOES do that, it will actually pull ahead of Oz, so the rest of this weekend may tell whether $230 million is really an attainable total or not.

1128. Jonboc - June 8, 2013

1107. “The numbers I’m interested in now are the well performing international numbers. ”

The only number I’m interested in is the one that prompts Paramount to green-light the next one! lol

1129. Ensign Ricky - June 8, 2013

According to weekend forecasts STID domestic total should be $199,940,439.

1130. Curious Cadet - June 8, 2013

@1126 Josh C.,

Word of mouth killed OZ. I initially was quite interested to see it, but the reviews and bad WOM removed all my enthusiasm. So I expect STID to have longer legs at least. Friday seems to prove that, considering it still made over $3 million at the box office despite ranking 7th.

Frankly what surprised me about Friday, is that After Earth still beat it at all, and that The Internship did so poorly. It looks like those negative reviews had a serious effect, and Wilson and Vaughn have worn out their welcome. I must admit The Purge surprised me, I didn’t expect it to do nearly as well as it did, especially after the Santa Monica shootings Friday afternoon and TDKR massacre (maybe it would have been higher?). And Orci’s Now You See Me is doing very well, no doubt siphoning some of the smarter Trek audience.

So yes, considering how badly some of these movies have been reviewed and subsequently poor WOM, this may well be the free-ride weekend STID gets that ST09 got against Angels and Demons before Memorial Day. One thing is for sure, if Man of Steel is as good as Damon Lindelof tweeted it was, then Star Trek will take quite a dive next weekend (then again it might benefit from sold-out performances of MOS).

1131. Curious Cadet - June 8, 2013

@1127. Jonboc,
“The only number I’m interested in is the one that prompts Paramount to green-light the next one!”

And those well may be the foreign numbers. Honestly, I can’t for the life of me figure out why they haven’t ordered at least a script as they did prior to ST09′s release, given the overall positive numbers — to both show support for the franchise and create some much needed mid-run box-office publicity. Its not as if this film isn’t going to make at least as much profit as ST09 once all the home video and PPV totals are in.

Is it possible Paramount is rethinking Orci, Kurtman and Lindelof?

1132. robbysteve64 - June 8, 2013

well just looked at mojo to see how much it has made compared to cost needless to say it has surpass its cost with more on its way the movie averages 2 mil a day since its opening weekend so count on another one hopefully in 2016 on the 50th anniversary of star trek being around after all these years it is still alive and well which i am glad for it way to go cast and crew you have done us proud can’t wait until the next one

1133. Curious Cadet - June 8, 2013

@1131. robbysteve64,
” needless to say it has surpass its cost with more on its way”

Not yet. It needs to roughly double it’s budget to break even ($380 million), and at least another $120 million more from box office to cover its marketing costs ($60+ million) — so $500 million would be ideal. I’m pretty confident STID will pass $400 million based on foreign numbers (the next update gets reported tomorrow, so we’ll have a much better picture then to see how much more), and home video and PPV will easily make up the rest (actually less as the studio keeps a larger share of those profits), and get it into profitability.

1134. Killamarshtrek - June 8, 2013

As we seem to be back to the stage where we have to run this site ourselves again, any of you UK Trekkers interested in this?

http://www.royalalberthall.com/tickets/star-trek/default.aspx

It’s a once in a lifetime opportunity you can’t miss!

1135. PaulB - June 8, 2013

#1130 “Is it possible Paramount is rethinking Orci, Kurtman and Lindelof?”

I doubt we’ll be that lucky. :(

I saw STID for the second time last week, and my opinion of the film went WAY down. It’s not Prometheus-level stupid, but it’s pretty stupid. The third act is incoherent crap, but so is a lot of what leads up to it.

ST09 made this old Trekkie very happy, and I’ve watched it more times than any Trek film except TMP and TWOK. But STID is such a ripoff, such a retread/rehash, that it actually is affecting my liking of ST09.

That’s an odd reaction for me. When the Matrix sequels came out and sucked so badly, they had ZERO effect on my love for the first film. The Star Wars prequels didn’t affect my affection for the original trilogy.

But after seeing STID, watching ST09 feels…emptier now, pointless. ST09 had MANY problems, but so much was right with it that I loved it. Now, I see that this “creative” team used all of their ideas the first time around, since they had to rehash them (and other people’s ideas) this time.

Paramount won’t get any more of my money, so long as Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, and Lindelof are involved.
Why spend money to see WHAT WE’VE ALREADY SEEN BEFORE, AND BETTER?!

1136. Ash - June 8, 2013

@1118-

“LOL Did I inadvertently make some people come out of the closet? LOL
~the K/S shippers never post here~”

Oh Jemini…smh

Indeed LOL. You are such a riot.

Honestly. I’m in stitches.

1137. Mike - June 8, 2013

@Jemini-

Oh wow. It’s even worse than I thought. Are you really so obsessed with proving there are slash people on this board that you will label someone who argues as being gay? I mean really?

This is a conversation that could go on forever, but since you are obviously incapable of having one without throwing out inappropriate accusations I think I’ll just leave you to your obsession :)

It’s really not hard to see why people don’t take you too seriously.

I can only hope S/U is alright in the next film. Good luck in therapy if things don’t go your way :)

1138. Craiger - June 8, 2013

What if JJ decides to ask his whole team of Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, Giacchino and Chamberless to jump ship and go over to Star Wars? Especially with that deal with Paramount over merchandising that went bad with Bad Robot? Then what will Paramount do with Star Trek? They wont be able to get another done in time for the 50th anniversary? They did leave STID with a way to end Star Trek with them going off on their five year mission. So Paramount could put Trek to rest again and bring out in say 5 to 10 years? However the actors did sign for a three picture deal. Did they already get paid for all three for that?

1139. robbysteve64 - June 8, 2013

curious cadet:

thanks for the info i was going by box office mojo which does have daily reports on gross income on the movies and what its budget is i was going by those numbers sorry for miss information

1140. Jemini - June 8, 2013

you guys are so touchy and then accuse the others of getting defensive
LOL maybe I used a wrong expression to say what I mean but that’s not what you’re saying. I thought that the “coming out of the closet” is sometimes used for other things other than “coming out as gay” and sure as hell even if that was the case I wouldn’t mean as something offensive.
in the instance I meant that I inadvertently made some people defensive about K/S and yet, made them show themselves as one of those defensive fans of that relationship

1121. Barney – June 8, 2013

# Jemini

Honestly, can you respectfully shut up. I don’t see FRIENDS fans calling Joey and Chandler gay, neither do I see Lord of the Rings fans calling Frodo and Sam gay. A lot of series like Friends and LOTR were driven by the friendship between two men who shared a very platonic brotherly love. Kirk and Spock are no different.

Why are you even so defensive? It’s not like Spock and Uhura broke up. they are still a couple last I watched the film and. Spock did tell her that he did care. so what more did you want? A sex scene?

Not everyone that hates the S/U relationship are gay and are slash fans.

You are perhaps, one of those African American girls living out their fantasies through S/U. you don’t even care about Trek as a science fiction/fantasy series. all you care about is the romance.

Just so you know, Trek is not Gone with the Wind or Casablanca.
———————–

what the heck are you talking about? are you replying to ME? because this reply has nothing to do with what I said and I honestly don’t see where someone could get all this from my comment.
wehre I’m defensive about S/U? I wasn’t even talking about them the only reason I brought that up is because the actual defensive K/S fan blatantly accused me of being biased about the K/S relationship only because I like S/U.
You guys talk so much about how people make hasty generalizations about anyone that dislike the S/U romance and yet what are you doing? making plenty of hasty generalizations about the S/U fans and in general anyone who doesn’t think that the K/S dynamic in this movie wasn’t well developed.
and now you are trying to convince me that I’m the one getting defensive LOL

” Not everyone that hates the S/U relationship are gay and are slash fans.”

we agree, but even if they were I don’t think it would be a problem unless you’re saying that gay people having opinions are less relevant than the rest of us.

“You are perhaps, one of those African American girls living out their fantasies through S/U. you don’t even care about Trek as a science fiction/fantasy series. all you care about is the romance.”

and now you have made a racist and ignorant comment yourself. Way to prove a point.
(btw I’m white like a vampire LOL the point being here? )

“Just so you know, Trek is not Gone with the Wind or Casablanca.”

whut?

…. and I’m the one defensive LMAO
do you guys read the things you write?

let’s add this to the list of the many discussions in this site where people desperately try to change the actual topic (in this instance someone who dares to say that what you like is not sacrosant or perfect) by insulting who has raised it.

I’ll leave with this:
“Reverting to name-calling suggests you are defensive and therefore find my objections valid”

1141. William Bradley - June 8, 2013

The 50th anniversary of Star Trek is over three years off.

Most movies are done a lot faster than that, and in this case the cast is already in place.

Taking four years to do the follow-up to ST09 was what was unusual.

>1137. Craiger – June 8, 2013
What if JJ decides to ask his whole team of Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, Giacchino and Chamberless to jump ship and go over to Star Wars? Especially with that deal with Paramount over merchandising that went bad with Bad Robot? Then what will Paramount do with Star Trek? They wont be able to get another done in time for the 50th anniversary? They did leave STID with a way to end Star Trek with them going off on their five year mission. So Paramount could put Trek to rest again and bring out in say 5 to 10 years? However the actors did sign for a three picture deal. Did they already get paid for all three for that?

1142. William Bradley - June 8, 2013

… So let’s look at the saga of Tony Stark/Iron Man …

2008: Iron Man

2010: Iron Man 2

2012: The Avengers starring RDJ

2013: Iron Man 3

That’s four movies featuring Tony Stark in five years.

Along with the cast being in place, all the sets for Star Trek are built, too. All the models, costumes, CGI templates, etc.

There is no need for a snail’s pace.

>>1137. Craiger – June 8, 2013
What if JJ decides to ask his whole team of Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, Giacchino and Chamberless to jump ship and go over to Star Wars?

1143. Kevin Browning - June 8, 2013

Final Message:

I watched STID for the third time. I love these characters and I love the new Star Trek.

Thank you J.J and team for the great ride!!!!

See you at the movies in 2016!!!

Grateful Fan,
Kevin

1144. William Bradley - June 8, 2013

FYI, Star Wars goes into production IN LONDON at the beginning of next year. JJ Abrams is moving to London late this year.

Disney wants the new Star Wars movie out in 2015, with two more Star Wars pictures to follow in the next few years.

http://www.deadline.com/2013/06/produced-by-conference-jj-abrams-says-star-wars-to-start-production-in-early-2014/

“I think that the thing is so big and so massive to some many people that the key to moving forward is honoring but not revering what went before,” said JJ Abrams today about the challenges of directing the new Star Wars movie. Abrams also revealed that production on Star Wars Episode VII is set to start right at the beginning of 2014 “Most likely we are going to be moving to London at the end of the year for the Star Wars movie,” said the Star Trek Into Darkness director Saturday at the Produced By conference on the Fox lot. Abrams added that the overseas shoot “drives me insane” as he would have liked to film the movie in LA. He also noted that the plan to shoot Star Wars Episode VII for Disney in the UK was set before he was brought on board. The director joked that getting the offer to helm the new Star Wars was the only thing that would have caused him to postpone a long set family vacation.

Abrams made the comments Saturday in conversation with Django Unchainedproducer Reginald Hudlin at the 5th annual PGA event. Last month, Disney and Lucasfilm announced that the Abrams-directed and Michael Arndt-scripted movie will be shooting in the UK. The latest incarnation of the Star Wars franchise is expected to come out in 2015 with two more films about the Force to follow over the next few years.

1145. dmduncan - June 8, 2013

Totally not excited for new Star Wars movie.

1146. Ahmed - June 8, 2013

@ 1130. Curious Cadet – June 8, 2013

“Is it possible Paramount is rethinking Orci, Kurtman and Lindelof?”

I sure hope so, if anyone here think that ONLY Abrams & his team can make a Star Trek movie, they are clearly mistaken.

Bob was good with the fans, interacting with us here & on other sites but I just think we need new fresh eyes for the 3rd one.

The simple fact is that STID is not doing that great when you take into account the increased budget & the 3D tickets. The movie was supposed to bring in much more than the first one but it didn’t.

As WB pointed out in # 1140 & #1141 it is reasonable to bring in new writing team & a director since the cast & sets are already in place.

Wasting 4 years to bring this movie was the biggest mistake that paramount allowed the team to do.

And so far we haven’t heard a word from the suits about the next movie unlike the last time after ST2009 was released, a week later Paramount was talking about the sequel.

1147. Thorny - June 8, 2013

1137… “What if JJ decides to ask his whole team of Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, Giacchino and Chamberless to jump ship and go over to Star Wars?”

Not a show-stopper. While I’d prefer the same team to do Star Trek 13, it isn’t like they’re the only ones who can. And Paramount has experience with revolving doors at its franchises… look at Mission Impossible, which were four big hits and yet did not have the same director twice. I suspect we’ll get Star Trek 2013 in 2016 with our without Bad Robot’s finest.

And Giacchino is a free agent. He also does Pixar movies.

1148. Thorny - June 8, 2013

“Star Trek 13″ of course.

1149. Craiger - June 8, 2013

I wonder what CBS thinks of STID numbers? Maybe now they wont want to do a new Trek TV series until after the third movie is out? Then we wont see a new Trek TV series until when 2017 or 2020? Imagine the SFX then for a new Trek TV series.

1150. Jonboc - June 8, 2013

#1145 “The simple fact is that STID is not doing that great when you take into account the increased budget & the 3D tickets. The movie was supposed to bring in much more than the first one but it didn’t.”

Do you seriously believe that Paramount will not green light the next movie because the movie was just wildly successful, not insanely successful?? I realize you don’t like Bad Robot running Trek, and that’s certainly an opinion you’re entitled to… but your contempt for the Bad Robot team is really clouding your sense of reason! The movie is going to make a profit. All are signed to a 3 picture deal…The Bad Robot team has a proven record and Trek’s 50th is around the corner. Wish all you want, but the Bad Robot team, with or without JJ directing, will give us another Trek in 2016, you can bet your quatloos on that!

1151. Ahmed - June 8, 2013

@1149. Jonboc – June 8, 2013

“Do you seriously believe that Paramount will not green light the next movie because the movie was just wildly successful, not insanely successful??”

That was not my point, my point was that Paramount will green light a 3rd movie hopefully with a new team because the current team didn’t manage to bring in more money. After all, the studio care only about how much money they will get back.

And I’ve no problem with the Bad Robot team, except maybe with Lindelof who somehow always manage to screw up any project that he is involved with. In fact, I’m very excited that Abrams is working on Star Wars, because that the kind of movie that he like to make & he will bring us a better SW movie than the prequels.

If Paramount want to stuck with the current team, then I wish them the best & hope that they will bring us a really good movie in 2016.

1152. ol pointy ears - June 8, 2013

The End …

…no more posts for this one!

On to new articles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1153. Curious Cadet - June 8, 2013

@1119. IDIC Lives!,
“Trekkers … want to see the crew’s game of volleyball”

Yikes. Talk about your Top Gun moments.

Hmmm. On second thought, there’s a good way to organically get the women into bikinis, and the men shirtless. You may have just gotten a Paramount marketing executive really excited …

1154. Joao Almeida - June 8, 2013

Hi all.

Just watched it. Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof did a great blockbuster, but is not Star Trek. Let them go with a thanks for the ride, bring someone who can write with sense and bring back Trek asap. I’ve spent two hours watching explosions, cgi, flares.
Keep the actors. Great job. Keep production. Keep sound, music and editing. Let the writers go, let JJ go.

LLAP

1155. Phobos in Montreal - June 8, 2013

*** REMINDER *** REMINDER ***
Today Sunday is the last weekend day for STID in IMAX. Montreal’s last IMAX day is Wed; and Thu in some locations in Toronto.

It’s now or never.

Of course STID will continue on lesser screens but IMAX is the best experience.

1156. Buzz Cagney - June 8, 2013

Must be a bit embarrassing for them at just how easily Fast and Furious eclipsed Darkness.

1157. cloudynow - June 8, 2013

Hello. STID opened here in Turkey, Friday the 7th and I finally watched it. I agree with #1153; I liked it and I think it’s better than the first one. But still… I feel that there was a 4-hours worth material. I am one of the fathers mentioned in the “this is not your father’s star trek” line. And that’s true, this and the first movie were not. It’s much too pacey for me. And I think that’s the main reason behind most of the debated things. I’d love a tad slower build-up, especially to fully understand Khan’s plan and actions.
Good story, good ideas but bad execution. Well, may be not bad, but half-done. I don’t know.
The line “Strafleet is not about vendetta, Kirk” by Marcus was not in the movie. Or did I miss it?
The flight or jump scene from Enterprise to Vengeance (bad choice of a name) was too long.
Cumberbatch was great, yes, but underused. Same goes for Urban too. Quinto must lose some weight; Nimoy was never a muscled guy, and this I think was what gave Spock his charm among the other things. Pine was more Kirk here, and I gues that was the point of this movie, and I’m OK with it. I liked the new Klingons, and I think the third one should be about them.
Second time I may like it better. And the movie has almost zero promotion here. The theater was almost empty.
So, yes, keep the actors, production, sound, etc. Editing, I think was not that good. LLAP

1158. Tim - June 8, 2013

Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof are the problem in this movie. The acting was great, the production stunning, but the writing was horrible. They need to pay royalties to Nicholas Meyer for writing their movie 30+ years ago. The almost word-for-word quotes, the out of place events (Such as McCoy screwing around with a dead tribble after the Enterprise gets its ass kicked…were there no wounded to tend to?), the almost laughable subplot of Admiral Marcus (Only Weller could make that even half-believable), contacting Spock Prime (Will Niimoy bail them out in EVERY movie?) leave this movie far behind ST 2009. Perhaps the Abrahms era will be remembered as the even numbered movies being crap and the odd ones good. Given that, looking forward to ST11, provided there is a new writing team.

1159. Phobos in Montreal - June 8, 2013

@1155 Buzz Cagney
F&F is sex and cars. Easy money. Universal is having a good year. In fact I went to see their “The Purge” yesterday. A tiny $3m (yes three) budget but I had a good time because it was thought provoking.

STID is far more spectacular of course, but it comes with a $190m price tag.

1160. Phobos in Montreal - June 8, 2013

@1156 cloudynow
Go see STID again. I went 7 times and it kept getting better. I am going back Sunday and Tuesday for the last IMAX presentations and then it’s back to a normal movie schedule. Although I might see Man of Steel more than once.

1161. Gary Makin - June 8, 2013

Just some thoughts in general:

Some fans need to read The Nitpicker’s Guide books. They show that every Star Trek episode and movie has multiple plot holes and contrivances.

Star Trek Into Darkness isn’t a remake of The Wrath of Khan. One reproduced scene doesn’t make it a remake. The plot is clearly different.

Regarding the “magic blood” – Khan has incredible recuperative powers in Space Seed. Its use in Into Darkness is no more magical than a lot of other stuff we’ve seen in Star Trek, like people rapidly ageing or undergoing some kind of radical mutation, which the doctor then reverses just like that.

As for transwarp teleportation, if you can have simultaneous subspace radio communication across a few light years, then you should be able to beam a person a few light years. Therefore, starships would not be obsolete.

1162. Exverlobter - June 9, 2013

Here is a great review

http://subspacecommunique.com/content/2013/05/29/hey-lets-star-trek-into-darkness-spoilers

1163. Disinvited - June 9, 2013

#1147. Thorny – June 8, 2013

Yikes! At first glance, I read that as “Star Trek 13 curse”.

#1158. Phobos in Montreal – June 8, 2013

I thought it was too when I was first introduced to the concept in RETURN OF THE ARCHONS.

1164. IDIC Lives! - June 9, 2013

#1160
Thanks for saying what you did, I’ve been intending to say the same things. I am less sure of “transwarp” but the accusations of “remake” are just lazy or shallow thinking, IMO. There is a symmetry and balance to the 2 Khan films + “Space Seed” which is intricate and should be rewarding if the viewer allows it or grasps it. Right, “magic blood” is right in line with Trek’s science fiction and I’m not just talking “Spock’s Brain” :-)

#1159 I live 40 miles from the nearest theater, I am a busy writer who runs an animal sanctuary too, and I have made time to see STID 4 times. I’m heading for #5 this afternoon (can’t wait!) and it gets BETTER – and I loved it the first time. AGREED.

Last time I went (Sunday 1 o’clock), the theater was the FULLEST, the crowd has grown each time. At the “premiere” almost no one was there.

1165. P Technobabble - June 9, 2013

Today is Boston Trek. This will be my third Trek convention and the second time I’m seeing Mr. Shatner. I totally expect some bird-brain to ask him if he’s seen the new movie.

1166. IDIC Lives! - June 9, 2013

#1164
I watched “The Ultimate Computer” last evening and was once again and forever more, amazed at the performances, the plot, the way it was put together, the pace, the message. Send love and respect to Mr. Shatner in Boston for me. Just put it in sub-space and send it out to him telepathically. :-)

1167. D.P. Sijmons. the Netherlands - June 9, 2013

Soooo bad, no words for it. I consider Star Trek done after Nemesis.
In to darkness indeed.

1168. USSEXETER - June 9, 2013

I’ve seen STID three times now and tw