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JJ Trek 3 possible director and writers August 6, 2013

by Matt Wright , Filed under: Rumor,ST: Into Darkness Sequel , trackback

With Star Trek Into Darkness almost on home video, what’s happening with the third Star Trek theatrical release from the new “JJ ‘verse” timeline is foremost on Trek fans minds. There are multiples sources that say Paramount has a contender for the director’s seat, while J.J. Abrams will produce.

Multiple sources report that the director of GI Joe: Retaliation, Jon M. Chu, is slated to direct. As we know J.J. Abrams would be too busy with the next Star Wars movie in 2015 to jump right into the 3rd Trek movie in 2016.

Director Jon M. Chu attends the "Justin Bieber: Never Say Never" Los Angeles Premiere at Nokia Theatre L.A. Live on February 8, 2011 in Los Angeles, California.

It’s assumed that he’s the pick since he managed to get the GI Joe franchise back on its feet. One of the first sources to report this is Latino Review, who have a good track record when it comes to Trek, they were one of the first (if not the first) to call out Khan as the next villain well before other news sites did.

Latino Review

Also, as most assumed, it looks pretty certain that the writing duo of Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman are back to pen the third movie.

orci_kurtzman

There were rather bogus rumors of other writers being paraded through the Bad Robot and Paramount offices a few weeks back.
The Hollywood Reporter

 

Remember that all of this considered rumor until an official press release from Bad Robot and/or Paramount is issued.

Comments

1. Mr. Anonymous - August 6, 2013

Was GI Joe even any good, though? This isn’t going to be another Stuart Baird situation, is it?

2. Mr. Anonymous - August 6, 2013

There’s this, though…

http://www.cinematallica.com/exclusivo-jon-chu-isnt-the-frontrunner-for-star-trek-3-but-we-know-who-is/

3. CmdrR - August 6, 2013

I hope this doesn’t signal another movie of glued together action set pieces, aka fist fights in front of forgettable cgi.

How about a real story about exploration with real focus on the characters… and stop trying to plug plot holes with throw-away lines and after-the-fact explanations that don’t really work.

4. Jesustrek - August 6, 2013

Bien Por quedarte para la siguiente pelicula Orci ;) Saludos.

5. jed - August 6, 2013

What have you done JJ, walking away from ST whilst marketing ITD pretty much stole the thunder from the actual release of the film and now instead of finishing what you started, we are looking at a director who brought us GI JOE. Had Chris Nolan handed over directors duties to another director for the 3rd Batman movie what would have happened??

6. Bones - August 6, 2013

Although I enjoyed the first 2 movies, I’m ready to move past the action/adventure and get back to a Roddenberry-esque Star Trek.

It used to be Star Trek fans wanted more information and Star Wars fans wanted more toys. Now its like we’re all heading for the toy department.

7. Newdivide1701 - August 6, 2013

After looking at Jon M. Chu’s resume, not a good idea.

Christopher Nolan, Joss Whedon, they I would trust.

Perhaps Oscar winning director Kathryn Bigelow so there can at least be a woman director for a Star Trek movie instead of just the series.

8. Newdivide1701 - August 6, 2013

@#2 Rupert Wyatt sounds more reasonable based upon his resume.

9. Factchecker - August 6, 2013

I’m free to direct.

10. BatlethInTheGroin - August 6, 2013

Chu has already denied it.

11. hooch - August 6, 2013

Jon M Chu. Known for “Justin Bieber: Never Say Never”, “Step Up Revolution”, “Step Up 2: The Streets”…

Go home, TrekMovie. You’re drunk

12. Mad Mann - August 6, 2013

Rupert Wyatt FTW!!!!!!!

Wow, I really hope that Chu is NOT the director and we can get Rupert Wyatt! Rise of the Planet of the Apes was a smart, action-filled, emotional, hard-core scif-fi movie. I absolutely loved it and really hope we can get Wyatt to treat Star Trek with the same respect and care he did with the Apes franchise.

13. Lou Sytsma (@OldDarth) - August 6, 2013

Really disappointing news that we are not getting new writers for the next installment.

Any other news pales next to it.

ST3 is really low on my anticipation list now.

Hopefully they will surprise me. It’s the perfect opportunity to do so.

14. Jeyl - August 6, 2013

I still don’t think this writing duo has what it takes to write a coherent Star Trek story. Some moments in their story may be good, but when the overall story tries to be about something, it just falls apart. And they take an iconic villain like Khan and essentially reduce him to a mere plot device rather than a character, something is way off. It doesn’t take much to see how lackluster his character is in the film when every single action he takes are all based on assumptions that are completely wrong. That’s not a competent villain, that’s a running gag.

15. trekprincess - August 6, 2013

I thought Khan was really good in Into Darkness Benedict played him very well. that is just my opinion.

16. Hat Rick - August 6, 2013

I know that it’s really difficult to write compelling stories. But honestly, can we do this one thing, just for kicks: Let the fans submit a storyline and see what sticks. I know that legally and logistically, this is a nightmare. In fact, in TOS, there was only one known instance of a fan-submitted story’s having been produced, as I recall.

But, since there is a strong segment of Trek population that believes we should move on from the current writing style, can we not break out of the corporatethink that dominates modern Hollywood and bring on some new contributors? Not that Messrs. Orci, et al., aren’t good; they are. But perhaps they can collaborate with others and share just a tiny bit of credit and remuneration. I’m not going to pretend that this would be easy for them to agree to. It isn’t.

Heck, let’s not even talk about a spec script or fan submissions. How about if we involve people like Dayton Ward, the well-known Trek lit author? Why do we even bother having Trek lit if no Trek lit author is ever in contention for the bigger leagues?

I’m looking for the latter-day Dorothy Fontanas of the world. Is Hollywood too big for that kind of thing? Heck, why not consider Ms. Fontana as a collaborator? What’s happened to Trek that we can’t think outside the box?

No comment on Mr. Chu as a possible director. I’m more interested in the writing, plot, and theme for the next sequel.

(And most interested in an actual official development announcement, dammit.)

See also my postings in the open discussion thread for more of my personal thoughts (and/or whines) about the State of Trek.

17. Toonloon - August 6, 2013

Really glad that Bob and Alex are still on writing duties. As much as I loved the classic movies, they were all journeymen (apart from Roddenberry) that worked on them. Bob is one of us. Can’t wait to see the new movie.

18. Matthew B - August 6, 2013

Seems Rupert Wyatt is about to be announced
http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/rupert-wyatt-frontrunner-star-trek-3-jon-chu/

19. The Best of Times - August 6, 2013

Congratulations to Bill Shatner on the Stratsford Legacy award:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/story/2013/08/06/stratford-shatner-legacy-award.html

20. The Chad - August 6, 2013

I saw Into Darkness opening weekend (three months ago?), and honestly I barely remember it. Seems that way with most of Kurtzman/Orci movies. Forgettable plots and jumbled incoherent messes. Bring back Nicholas Meyer, then you’d have a winner.

Better yet…he’s too good for JJverse trek.

21. Dennis C - August 6, 2013

@17 Bob is a paranoid conspiracy nut. Not exactly ‘one of us’.

I might also add that Harve Bennet produced Treks II – V, Nick Meyer co-wrote II, IV and VI and Ralph Winter worked on III, IV, V and VI. There are a number of others who were on board for most of the movies. Not exactly journeyman productions.

As for the next movie we’re going to get more of the same, unfortunately. I don’t know if these guys know how to write more than 10 pages of dialogue beofre something explodes, crashes or takes a punch. Hopefully a solid director can reign in the script and knows how to pace a film.

22. Dennis C - August 6, 2013

THR also notes that INTO DARKNESS still hasn’t broken even. It’ll be interesting to see what kind of budget Paramount and Skydance are willing to move forward with.

23. JohnRambo - August 6, 2013

We were in this together, and then he was gone.

JJ has to come back.

He must… he must…

24. Jeyl - August 6, 2013

@23

I think JJ is done. This is not his franchise, characters, or even his dream project. If he has to spend a couple of years on something, I think he would rather spend it on something that he can truly call his own or something that he really enjoys more than Star Trek.

25. Marja - August 6, 2013

2 Mr Anonymous, I hope your source is right. PLEASE, GOD.
3, Cmdr R, Everything you said – I agree SO MUCH.

We need heart, soul, and exploration, both philosophical and scientific – not just another ACTION ACTION RELENTLESS ACTION VIOLENCE oh yeah a character bit ACTION ACTION VIOLENCE RELENTLESS ACTION – with #6, Bones’, Toy Department apparently always in mind.

PLEASE Paramount, JJ, I’m begging you.

And please NO KLINGON WAR unless there’s a real philosophically reasoned surprise in there.

Betting Chu has denied it b/c of the sh*tstorm of protest and criticism of his past, uh, work.

15, princess, I will say that Cumby acted the hell out of his character. And he [and other primo actors in the film] give us an idea of how hard good actors have to work to “sell” certain silly ideas.
But the idea of making the character Khan was stupid and a non-sequiter to younger folk who’d never heard of Khan and an annoying, stupid “plot device” – that added nothing to the plot – for those of us older fans who knew about Khan. The silliest thing was the “reaction” of Kirk and Spock to this Momentous News that “I am Khan” – absolutely none – why did Lindelof make the writers shoehorn Khan in there? The film would’ve been better served if they’d kept him John Harrison.

16, HatRick, In addition to the fine “Tholian Web,” I’m also remembering a script submitted to ST TNG by a fan … one Ronald D. Moore : )
Yes, it’s an idea beset with problems from the get-go [I'm thinking about some folks who post some really crazeee ideas on this board], but might yield some gold.
“Not that Messrs. Orci, et al., aren’t good; they are. But perhaps they can collaborate with others and share just a tiny bit of credit and remuneration.”
And your idea of D.C. Fontana’s participation is STERLING. She would be a fabulous contributor, with heart, a more adult perspective [see "The Ultimate Computer"] and an interest in cultures-other-than-Earth’s that is rather badly needed. Also, many of her ideas percolated thru Orci/Kurtzman’s work, especially those about Spock and his culture.

21, Dennis C, Are the relentless action scenarios what make Orci/Kurtzman popular writers, or is it that the studios demand that of them b/c it helps to make a buck off the teenaged “tentpole” audience [and thus guarantee O/K work so well for them]?
They’d make a lot more money off of me if they quit with some of the violence and action and as I said above, go back to the heart and soul of Science Fiction, philosophy and exploration [albeit with some Awful or Scary Surprises Resulting in Action for the explorers, just NOT for the majority of the film please].
In contrast to many who post here, I found the “discussion” of Cheney-esque politics and manipulation of good-willed people by Adm. Marcus quite interesting, it’s just that it got swallowed up in all the action.
A lot of people have to see the films multiple times just to make some sense of the plots, probably an intentional thing on the part of Bad Robot/Paramount [frown]. I’d rather see it multiple times because I’m intrigued by more of the ideas.

26. Optimistic Doodle - August 6, 2013

Let us hope OFFICIAL (and ‘original’ ;-) news beams down sooner rather than later.

27. DonDonP1 - August 6, 2013

Respectfully, it’s “Star Trek XIII,” not “Star Trek 3.”

28. Barfco - August 6, 2013

They should go after Bryan Singer. He will be will be done with X-Men within the next year. He likes Star Trek and has an eye for action. I would go after him. I believe he’s already said he would be open to it.

29. Ahmed - August 6, 2013

As if STID wasn’t already stupid movie, Damon Lindelof revealed in an interview that he has another dumber idea for STID climax !!

“But there were earlier story iterations where the Klingon Fleet was simultaneously heading for Earth to get retribution, only to be turned around via diplomatic intervention by Uhura. We dropped it pretty early on, as it didn’t feel intimate, cool, or earned.”

http://www.blastr.com/2013-8-6/damon-lindelof-reveals-bigger-ending-his-star-trek-sequel-almost-had

wow, only a heavenly intervention by the The Almighty Uhura could have saved Earth from those filthy Klingon !!!!!!!

30. DeBeckster - August 6, 2013

I’m not sure if this is the right place to mention this, but the first new thread is about conjecture of the next movie, yet no mention of the passing of Michael Ansara? Just wondering. . .

31. T'Cal - August 6, 2013

5. jed – August 6, 2013
What have you done JJ, walking away from ST whilst marketing ITD pretty much stole the thunder from the actual release of the film and now instead of finishing what you started, we are looking at a director who brought us GI JOE. Had Chris Nolan handed over directors duties to another director for the 3rd Batman movie what would have happened??

T’Cal: I never thought I’d say this but I wish someone else had taken the reigns onThe Dark Knight Rises. Batman begins was excellent and The Dark Knight was even better, but TDKR had huge plot holes, weak writing, soft characters, and sluggish pacing. It had a few good moments but not enough to save it. If JJ wants to walk away to focus on something else, let him and get som eone who wants to be there.

32. T'Cal - August 6, 2013

…and I really liked Star Trek ’09 and STID even more so.

33. Dennis C - August 6, 2013

@21

I think you’ve nailed it. They have a formula that make studios a buck and director’s like Michael Bay and JJ Abrams go along for the ride without putting their own stamp on the material.

For me that was part of the problem with STID: It was formulaic, hitting the beats for a summer blockbuster and rushing through one set piece to the next.

“The Dark Knight” and “Skyfall” should have set the tone for other writers, both proving that you can have a movie that delivers the thrills and a solid story that’s given time to unfold.

SO, yeah, count me among the disappointed that Orci and Kurtzman will write another Star Trek movie. My hope is that a new director will take a more nuanced approach to the material.

34. Platitude - August 6, 2013

Although the problems with G.I. Joe Retaliation were not necessarily with the directing, it was more the writing, but I still would rather Chu not direct it. Rupert Wyatt would be a good choice, I think.

My ideal writing team for the next Trek would be Ronald D. Moore and Jane Espenson, although maybe Moore could write with Kurtzman and Orci. Basically, if Klingons are involved, Moore needs to be in there somehow!

35. Buzz Cagney - August 6, 2013

Good lord, the same writers?
Another cut and paste job coming up then. How bloody depressing.

36. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - August 6, 2013

Bring in Manny Cotto.

37. Martin J. Pollard - August 6, 2013

#30 – I’m wondering that, too. Four days later and still no mention of the passing of a well-known Trek actor; instead, we get a story about the third Abramsverse film? Not cool.

38. Marja - August 6, 2013

5 Jed, “marketing STiD29″ in Europe indeed took too much attention away from the US. Not to mention all of JJ’s talk of SWars. He should have said, “No comment” and marketed the movie he was there to market.

29 Ahmed, The central tenet of negotiation is Communication. As established in the AU, Uhura is a master. They probably dropped the idea b/c of its possible unpopularity with teen boys and the patriarchal tradition of “tentpole” films.

33 Dennis C, ” My hope is that a new director will take a more nuanced approach to the material.” Yeah, mine too, if indeed a director has control over the material. I suspect that in this dollar-grabbin’ era of look-alike “tentpole” films, it’s more the producers’ say. I could be – and hope I am – wrong.

34 Platitude, It might be fun for Moore to turn all that “Klingon honor” stuff on its ear. I got a little tired of it, and felt the Romulans got ripped off in TNG and its iterations, b/c in the TOS days, Klingons were without honor and Romulans were Starfleet’s “honorable opponents” as in “Balance of Terror”.
At any rate, I would love for a third and even fourth writer to join the team and come up with more Scifi ideas than facile explanations that retcon some poor plot points. I did enjoy ST09 and STiD, but oy, the plot holes.

39. Ahmed - August 6, 2013

@ 38. Marja – August 6, 2013

“29 Ahmed, The central tenet of negotiation is Communication. As established in the AU, Uhura is a master. They probably dropped the idea b/c of its possible unpopularity with teen boys and the patriarchal tradition of “tentpole” films.”

I’ve to disagree with you here. Being a communication officer doesn’t mean that you can do serious diplomatic negotiations with an enemy fleet.

It is like saying that a senior communication officer in a US nuclear submarine can negotiate with the Red Army during a crisis. it is just absurd & ridiculous idea. I can believe it if the Captain or the XO is handling such negotiations but not the Comm officer.

@ 37. Martin J. Pollard – August 6, 2013

“#30 – I’m wondering that, too. Four days later and still no mention of the passing of a well-known Trek actor; instead, we get a story about the third Abramsverse film? Not cool.”

The owner of the site, AP, is not around to run the site. We should be thankful that Matt is keeping the site running. Beside, you can’t expect Matt to do everything by himself.

40. Jordan - August 6, 2013

If Jon M. Chu directs the third Star Trek movie, you can kiss this franchise goodbye.

41. Basement Blogger - August 6, 2013

Okay, I’ve got an idea for the director of the next Star Trek movie. But let me make a quick comment about Jon Chu and his G.I. Joe sequel. It was a better movie than the first one because Chu knows how to stage action scenes. They made sense. That being said, the movie was only as good as its writing. So the G.i. Joe sequel wasn’t that good. Chu’s wikipedia biography demonstrates an upcoming talent. And he’s Chinese, Chinese American. Help with the burgeoning Asian market? Don’t get mad, I’m also Chinese American. But it won’t matter to me if he’s Chinese or not and I think the Asian moviegoer won’t care either.

There is one directorial candidate who is available that would wow every Trekker on the planet. (I made this idea on another thread. ) He’s done a thoughtful film about aliens. He’s done a heartwarming movie about an alien. And to get it out of his system, he’s directed a bomb about pirates. Oh, yeah, he won an Academy Award for directing.

Cue the E.T. music. ….

GET STEPHEN SPIELBERG. There are multiple reports saying that Spielberg is available and looking for a project. Link. Give Spielberg the keys to the Enterprise for the fiftieth anniversary of our legendary science fiction franchise.

42. Basement Blogger - August 6, 2013

@ 41

Oops. Forget the Slash Film link. Spielberg is available.

http://www.slashfilm.com/steven-spielberg-will-not-direct-american-sniper/

43. MORN SPEAKS - August 6, 2013

It’ll be Brian Singer

44. JR - August 6, 2013

As far as the lastest installment for the GI Joe series, the movie was a flop. What are the other credits for the proposed director?

45. pg - August 6, 2013

Well, hopefully they make a decision soon because at that point the sky would be the limit for getting this movie fast tracked.

46. KHAN PRIME - August 6, 2013

HAS ANYONE MENTIONED NICHOLAS MEYER?

47. Trekboi - August 6, 2013

Happy for JJ to go.
Star Trek Into Darkness lost tens of millions after intrest for the first film died from being delayed waiting for JJ’s Magic touch & He clearly was more into the upcoming Star Wars & Stole Star Trek’s promotional thunder by announcing & talking about Star Wars 7 instead of Star Trek Into Darkness.

& the Writers cannot write sequels.
The first Transformers & first Star Trek were great but the sequels were retarded- they get so hung up on the first films they can’t do a sequel.

Transformers Dark of the Moon was great, Star Trek 3 can be great too with new writers who can actually write a story about the mission, Strange New Worlds not side strepping the mission to fight some Villan of the week.

48. Pizza - August 6, 2013

Ok, so good chance of no more of those blasted lens flares.

Now we need an original story. With all due respect to Bob and Alex, what are the chances of an original story?

If Paramount wants a bigger box office, you need a better story. Who ever decided to re-tell the Khan story erred big time. The movie grossed pretty much what it was worth. I seen the first one 3 times. I seen Dearkness once. I might borrow Darkness from the library, but definetly will NOT buy it.

There are so many stories waiting to be told.
Here’s some. Why is the Federation not allowed to cloaked their ships? Explain how the neutral zome came into effect.

Paramount needs to change the formula. Perhaps new writers to go with a new director.

49. The SInfonian - August 6, 2013

I’d still like to see a film with the Klingons as uncomfortable allies, fulfilling the ideas put forth in Day of the Dove in TOS. Especially now considering we’ve lost Michael Ansara…. his Kang… is exactly what Klingons would have, should have, could have been. (OK, Worf was a worthy successor of Kang, and Martok close…. but you get my point.)
.
For Kirk and Kang to have to put aside Federation/Klingon conflicts to work together to stop some ‘unstoppable object’ would be dramatic, and have no true moustache-twirling villain… particularly if the object were Doomsday Machines, or Vejur, or something akin to that.

50. Hat Rick - August 6, 2013

@Marja (25), thanks for your nice comments. Ronald D. Moore is one of my favorites in the Trek production world and he was one important reason that DS9 was such a great success with many who valued intricate storytelling.

51. jas_montreal - August 6, 2013

If Chu directs the sequel, then Trek will be finished… and this time for good.

52. Craiger - August 6, 2013

Ahmed Uhura single handedly saved Earth from a Klingon invasion but it took Kirk and the whole crew plus old Spock to save Earth from Nero. I think the writers have lost it. Now I am not sure I have high hopes for the third, even though I liked ST 2009. Unless new Trek will be like the old Trek but this time 1 and 3 are good and 2 was bad? Last time Movies 1,3 and 5 were bad and 2,4, and 6 were good.

53. Basement Blogger - August 6, 2013

@ 45

Trekboi says this,

“Transformers Dark of the Moon was great,”

Transformers: Dark of the Moon was one of the dumbest movies ever made. Then came Battleship. But back to TDOM. It’s so dumb that I listed the stupid moments in the movie. Link. My favorite? Hero’s girlfriend gets mad at hero for not going to a party because he wanted to save the world.

Look, great is 2001: A Space Odyssey. You can’t put Transfomers: Dark of the Mooon in the great category. The only thing “great” about it was the native 3D filming. It’s a hybrid; part 2D conversion, part native 3D.

Dumbesst moment in Transformers; Dark of the Moon
http://berniebasementblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/dumb-moments-in-transformers-dark-of.html

54. BRF - August 6, 2013

Reboot!

55. Bob Tompkins - August 6, 2013

Totally bummed. Hopefully, Paramount will go another direction entirely when the results are once again so- so and dependent upon foreign box office to make money; that, however seems to be the trend.
What I was hoping for was an adventure movie to challenge the grey matter just a wee bit with some great new characters and real exploration at the root of the problem for the crew, but we’ll end up with something along the lines of Cowboys and Aliens or Prometheus or a plot line that could be quickly adapted to a Transformers movie.
I read that China has not sent any American studio a check in over a year, so maybe that’s not a real good idea any longer. Anyway, we get more of the same with fewer flashes unless Abrams can convince the new director to keep the look.

56. Hat Rick - August 6, 2013

I just realized that not only haven’t I seen the latest Batman or Iron Man movies, I haven’t even seen the latest Transformer movie, either. Based on Basement Blogger’s review, maybe I didn’t miss much.

I still have the second of the Batman remakes (Dark Knight Rises, I think) on Blu-ray but haven’t seen it; I’ve misplaced it since I purchased it last year.

In fact, two of the last several movies I saw were STID and the Tom Cruise vehicle, Oblivion, both of which I loved/liked. (I loved STID tens times more, naturally.)

Did not see any of the GI Joe movies (how many were there?).

And when I mean, “did not see,” I’m including DVD/Blu-ray/Netflix viewings.

I did see Man of Steel, which I liked, but not as much as I thought I would, since I really enjoy the Superman mythology and had very high hopes for it.

And I did see the last Avengers movie, with the Hulk smashing things, etc., while fighting alongside Thor, Iron Man, and the rest.

So… I guess I don’t have to to turn in my science-fiction fan card after all. :-)

Also, I plan to see Elysium with a friend very soon.

Still haven’t seen Skyfall, though. (Bond franchise, not exactly sci-fi, but still a favorite.)

Did see the remake of the A-Team on Netflix about seven or eight months ago. Surprisingly good. Better than what I remember the A-Team TV series was.

Sorry for the digression.

57. J - August 6, 2013

Sorry, but who the hell is this Jon Chu? He’s a nobody. Why would you give Star Trek 50th Anniversary Movie to a nobody is beyond my humble comprehension.

58. Hat Rick - August 6, 2013

@Dennis C. (22), would be interested in a link to that THR report.

59. The Keeper - August 6, 2013

Paramount would become the sea of idiots if they go with Director Jon Chu and the writing duo of Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman.
Unfortunately Latino Review does have a good track record concerning Trek so the big lets downs as to the direction the franchise now takes leads me to shake my head in disgust since the studio does not listen.
which means we will get the lame plot of Klingon’s and Khan instead of something with more brilliant imagination and story telling.
The studio big wigs should all be fired as they simply rely on the same ole stories.

Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman may be able to write convincing dialogue, but as far as original stories and mind bending plots, they simply don’t have what it takes.

Paramount will never learn or listen. Even this laughable writing team wont listen. They are sure to go where there’s no need to go again almost in spite of what the fans says.

You know Spielberg and Lucas foresaw the fall of the film industry, now witness why it will come true.

Hollywood is controlled by Idiots in charge.

60. samrock83 - August 6, 2013

BOOT ALL OF ‘EM! No more Orci or Kurtzman. When it comes to Trek they are one-trick ponies! Revenge revenge revenge revenge. Giant black ship. Too much humor. Not enough character. Not giving McCoy his due! Let them go play with Transformers and leave Trek alone.

Anybody else with me?!?!?

An this Chu guy? OMG, please NOOOO!!!!!

61. Red Dead Ryan - August 6, 2013

I suspect that Jon M. Chu doesn’t earn as much as Rupert Wyatt does, and thus, I believe that is the reason he happens to be the frontrunner for the job.

I really get the sense that the next movie is going be made on the cheap.

And I wouldn’t be surprised if J.J Abrams decides* not to produce the movie, or have any involvement at all.

Now, this is all just speculation on my part. But the studio hasn’t announced the sequel yet, and the fact that the director of “GI Joe: Retaliation” is the leading candidate suggests to me that they want someone cheaper than Abrams, Spielberg, Nolan, etc., and someone who will “play ball” with Paramount.

*Most likely pushed aside by “studio politics”.

62. Phil - August 6, 2013

Over at Universal, ‘The Mummy’ just lost their director. That ought to push Trek back to a 2018 release…..

63. Disinvited - August 6, 2013

#58. Hat Rick – August 6, 2013

Same one I posted first in “Star Trek, after Darkness: What is next for the franchise?” minutes after it broke:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/alex-kurtzman-roberto-orci-return-599706

64. Ahmed - August 6, 2013

@ 62. Phil – August 6, 2013

“Over at Universal, ‘The Mummy’ just lost their director. That ought to push Trek back to a 2018 release….”

huh, why ? These are two different movies produced by two different companies.

65. Ahmed - August 6, 2013

@ 60. samrock83 – August 6, 2013

“BOOT ALL OF ‘EM! No more Orci or Kurtzman. When it comes to Trek they are one-trick ponies! Revenge revenge revenge revenge. Giant black ship. Too much humor. Not enough character. Not giving McCoy his due! Let them go play with Transformers and leave Trek alone.

Anybody else with me?!?!?”

Totally agree with you, but as we know from past experience, Paramount will not change anything when it come to the writing or direction of the movie. All they want is to produce dumb action movie & that why they hired Bob & Alex again.

66. The Keeper - August 6, 2013

The sad part is it truly was a brilliant move to do a semi-rebooth TOS by offering us alternate time line adventures. It would seem that this much revered writing duo was only able to shot one load and we are getting nothing but after dribble disguised as original progressive film screen writing.

I was in full support and would have fought tooth and nail against Nay Sawyers, and to an extent will still.

However, Jon Chu is not the answer and the writer team of Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman should be let go of, since they have done nothing but LIED to us about the second film proving to all just how untrustworthy they are.

I just wish that both Paramount and even JJ Abrams would take their heads out of their asses and see these two for what they really are.
But I guess they are friends.
It’s not “who you know” but truly “who you blow”
Us fans, both old and new will be getting the shaft since neither the studio or writing give a damn what we say, but WE the fans both old and new will have the last laugh when the film series finally fails of repetitive
bull poop.

All I can say is: PLEASE PARAMOUNT FIRE THESE TWO WRITERS ALREADY AND HIRE A GOOD SOLID DIRECTOR OF NON ACTION FILM MAKING.

In other words, USE WHAT GOD GAVE YOU, A BRAIN!!!!

67. Hat Rick - August 6, 2013

Thanks, Disinvited. Is that “Hollywood accounting” at play here, I wonder? Movie makes $450 million on a $190 million budget and its still not yet profitable. I do understand that a lot of the $450 mil goes to the distributors, but is the cost of getting everyone paid really $450 million or more?

Were they seriously thinking that STI would gross, say, $500 million, when the prevous worldwide record (ST (2009)) was around $385 million (unadjusted)?

I think that a lot of the less positive factors might have been discounted — namely, for example, that we’ve waited four years for this movie. To put that into perspective, freshmen in college when 2009 was released are now graduates. Graduates in 2009 are now probably thinking of starting a family after a few years of playing the field. Young fans who were, say 12 or 13 are now thinking more in terms of fast and furious cars that they’d like to drive. I think that the postponement of a year from the original 2012 release was a real factor, and already, three years between releases is already somewhat long for today’s audiences.

Also, where are all the kid-friendly toys? None to be found.

Who planned this? Let not the finger-pointing begin, since it’s not a bad take, but still… who planned this? Are they the ones planning for the next sequel?

BTW, I see the next sequel budgeted at between $100 million and $120 million. Just a hunch.

68. Phil - August 6, 2013

@64. It’s an Orci and Kurtzman project (they have a first look contract at Universal). So, anything unexpected will take time away from other projects. In addition to ‘The Mummy’ reboot, they have two other movies in development, plus all their TV work.

These guys are busy, and that’s not a bad thing. They were also busy in the run up to Trek09, and after they were green-lit for the STID script, they kept promising they were working on the script, were about done with the script, that it was about finished, then it became apparent they hadn’t even started at the original release date approached…..Given what we know they have on their plate now, there isn’t anyway they can get this script done for a 2016 release. Further, any delays in any of their other projects just pushes it out further. It is what it is, and Paramount knows this. No one should be holding their breath for a 2016 release at this point….

69. Spock69 - August 6, 2013

At this rate and on past experience Paramount and Bad Robot will take at least 3 months to just confirm the next movie, then it’ll be another year before any writing takes place, another year to get everyone together to actually film it. We’ll be lucky to see anything before summer 2016.

All that time and it’ll be a crash bang wallop movie about the Klingons.
How about something new and original?
After all…….The galaxy is a big place!

70. Ahmed - August 6, 2013

@68. Phil

oh I see your point.

“Given what we know they have on their plate now, there isn’t anyway they can get this script done for a 2016 release. Further, any delays in any of their other projects just pushes it out further. It is what it is, and Paramount knows this. No one should be holding their breath for a 2016 release at this point….”

The simple solution will be to hire new guys & not waste time waiting for Bob & Alex.

71. dark stanley - August 6, 2013

Ive been watching Trek all my life. Even sat thru all of Enterprise and saw Trek 5 more times than I care to admit. But ST:ID was HORRIBLE! if this writing/directing team take on Trek 3 reboot I will not see it. Jesus get Brian Singer hed make a modern and majestic classic

72. Stephan - August 6, 2013

Wow. Why all the negativity towards into darkness? I really don’t get what I’m reading. In my opinion, stid us one if the best trek movies being a fan since tng. And I think of stid as a very intellectual movie which Roddenberry would have loved. I’m just saying this to remind everyone that opinions can be very different!

73. Disinvited - August 6, 2013

#65. Ahmed – August 6, 2013

I believe it is derived from the belief that O&K have demonstrated a clear lack of being able to rub their bellies and pat their heads simultaneously, well:

http://www.deadline.com/2012/09/len-wiseman-wrapping-up-deal-to-helm-universal-reboot-of-the-mummy/

74. Yanks - August 6, 2013

Orci & Kurtzman…

http://io9.com/karl-urban-wants-star-trek-…tory-1032664641

75. Navy - August 6, 2013

They don’t understand or care about Star Trek.

Give me a $600million(to support development of the movie and a quality game tie in) budget and let me reboot Star Trek and I’ll get you $1b box office alone.

76. Yanks - August 6, 2013

Sorry, wrong link above :-)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-visi…i-return-599706?

77. Navy - August 6, 2013

I think you should take a break from posting URLs.

It’s beyond your pay grade it seems. :P

78. Ahmed - August 6, 2013

@ 73. Disinvited – August 6, 2013

“#65. Ahmed – August 6, 2013

I believe it is derived from the belief that O&K have demonstrated a clear lack of being able to rub their bellies and pat their heads simultaneously, well:”

lol

To be fair, O&K are not dumb writers, they know how to write action movies that bring in millions of dollars. I think they are intentionally dumbing down their movies to make the studios happy.

Just look the reports today that the Weinstein company is cutting 20 minutes from the upcoming “Snowpiercer” movie US release because, wait for it, the audiences is too stupid to understand it !!

“TWC people have told Bong that their aim is to make sure the film will be understood by audiences in Iowa… and Oklahoma.”

“Leaving aside the issue of what Weinstein thinks of its audience, it seems to say the least anomalous that the rest of the English-speaking world has to be dragged down to the presumed level of American mid-west hicks.” The film critic attended the July 29th Seoul premiere of the film, and after speaking with Bong, revealed that most of the cuts would come in the form of character detail, effectively turning this rich Sci-Fi thriller into a straightforward action film. Adding further insult to injury, voiceovers will now be added to the opening and closing of the film.

http://io9.com/harvey-weinstein-thinks-youre-too-stupid-for-snowpierc-1041514670

79. Phil - August 6, 2013

@72. Yeah, I don’t understand that. Most successful Trek movie ever, and people are going on like it’s Plan Nine From Outer Space. Continue to be amused by people who’s sole skill in life seems to be bitching about other peoples work thinking that all they need is a pile of cash and they could produce the next Casablanca. Right….

80. Ahmed - August 6, 2013

@ 79. Phil – August 6, 2013

“Yeah, I don’t understand that. Most successful Trek movie ever”

Not yet, according to the Hollywood Reporter:

“Though Star Trek Into Darkness earned $451 million worldwide to date, it hasn’t turned a profit yet thanks to a $190 million budget.”

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/alex-kurtzman-roberto-orci-return-599706

And no one is asking for the next Casablanca, we just want a movie with a coherent story & character developments. Not another revenge story or BIG BLACK SHIP or OMG Kirk lost his command at the beginning of the movie, only to have it back halfway through the movie crap that we saw again in STID.

81. Dennis - August 6, 2013

Another movie by these 2? Really??!?!?! Can’t they find someone else who actually likes and knows something about Star Trek?

What are they going to do next? Rehash Star IV,V and VI? Seeing how they ripped of Star Trek II big time!!!

I saw the film the Saturday night it came out and when it got to the silly Kirk death scene. You could hear the trek fans cringe in their seats seeing this mockery of Star Trek II. After Spocks “khan” yell, someone yelled out “George Canstanza!!!!” HAHAHA

PLEASE no more amateur scripts!

82. The Keeper - August 6, 2013

@ 81,
Dennis, the studio and JJ will hire Oreo and Kluzmen again and they will give us the further adventures of Khan vs. Klingons Vs Federation and for th next 2 years deny that the film will have khan in it.

Hell you know I could;d write a better story ..Why not have V’ger encounter the Dooms Day Machine, they merge and become the universal ultimate weapon rampaging thru the galaxy…at least there would be death destruction and all the action the studio wants.

But alas, we’ll get some dribble story a lot of promises and a huge slap in the face yawn.

83. PEB - August 6, 2013

I’m not even reading the comments HA
Matt you posted this just to start a riot didn’t you? :)

84. Craiger - August 6, 2013

I know Orci and Kurtzman has been hired but Hollywood Reporter has a headline of breathing new life into the franchise. Why hire Orci and Kurtzman again for ST 3? Paramount must have thought ST 2 sucked?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/alex-kurtzman-roberto-orci-return-599706?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_breakingnews&utm_campaign=THR%20Breaking%20News

85. Craiger - August 6, 2013

Doesn’t this also say that Paramount is having trouble getting ST 3 off the ground?

86. chuck watters - August 6, 2013

Get some writers that understand Star Trek . And what’s the deal with Scotty’s side kick ????? Didn’t explain who he is in the first movie and the same with the second . The fans from day one said no Khan and still you stuck it to us and now at the end of ” Darkness ” we still see Khan and his crew in their torpedos . Use them in the next movie and you total blew it . Very disappointed with the direction their taking Trek .

87. chuck watters - August 6, 2013

Sure …..hide the ship under water ………pure eye candy…….could not be any stupider

88. Dennis - August 6, 2013

@82

Quote:”Dennis, the studio and JJ will hire Oreo and Kluzmen again and they will give us the further adventures of Khan vs. Klingons Vs Federation and for th next 2 years deny that the film will have khan in it.

Unfortunately. Like I said will they rip of Star Trek IV,V and VI this time? Seeing how they mocked STII and the adventure of frozen Khan was pretty lame.

Quote:”Hell you know I could;d write a better story ..Why not have V’ger encounter the Dooms Day Machine, they merge and become the universal ultimate weapon rampaging thru the galaxy…at least there would be death destruction and all the action the studio wants.

Since they went back in time and erased everything TOS and upwards (and NO it is not a parallel universe or some sort of other nonsense) because of too much canon. Why not do something ORIGINAL!?!?!?! Do we have to endure more rehashing? Do you remember seeing Trek on TV or at the theater when you got something “new”?

Sorry but no more rehashing. The minute I find out about the plot of Star Trek XIII being yet another rip off. I am out!

Quote:”But alas, we’ll get some dribble story a lot of promises and a huge slap in the face yawn.

Agree.

89. The Keeper - August 6, 2013

@79
Phil, STID may have been the most successful ST film financially to date, but the problem here is story wise it was a huge lie to both old and new fans that I and many others will not support.

I gave ST09 all the support I saw fit. While flawed it was by far more original in nature and a wise choice to reinvent TOS with the twist of a new time line…but along comes it’s sequel…a horrid misuse of scene grabs from a classic ST film.
Maybe Khan could have work, as they were telling Khans story as it started a different way, but the fumbled and fell after the so called “BIG” reveal.
These guys lied to us all, and yes that includes you.
If you want to support and embrace that lie it’s your every right to do so, but I don’t have to like it or approve it or say I will support more of the same from this writing duo of idiots that Paramount and countless other dumb studio’s hail.

I am going to say it again. I like and support the new time line idea of reinventing TOS…but I want to see original stories, new types of villains and ideas that stimulate the mind.
Not just dull it with visual effects (which by the way are such a given in today’s film technology it’s hardly worth mentioning a scifi feature will have breathtaking special effects) and a dull kiddie level story.

90. Dennis - August 6, 2013

I say have Q or Spock go back and fix the time line and put everything back to normal.

91. Trekbilly - August 6, 2013

The important thing is that Lindeloff is kept FAR FAR AWAY from Star Trek 3!!! He SUCKS!!!

92. Lurker - August 6, 2013

So, rake me across the coals now….but, for a 50th anniversary movie would like to have it be about where it all began for Star Trek – a visit to Talos IV.

Handled properly the story options would be limitless (and original at the same time!)- we could have the drama and character development we’ve all longed for. Throw some action in there, and plot lines handling the current human condition and we could have the perfect TOS-esque motion picture. Probably won’t be a blockbuster, but it would be something we could all be satisfied with.

But…I’m sure the studio is saying “Klingon War,Klingon War” nonstop to the producers and writers, and we will have to, once again, hope for the best.

93. crone - August 6, 2013

Who suggested Spielberg directing 50th anniversary Trek? Who said that? Will you marry me? That is the best idea I’ve heard all day. Trek could use someone who gets transcendence wonder and action. Roddenberry would approve, were he here to approve. How can we make this so? Please make it so.

94. Vultan - August 6, 2013

I liked STID slightly more than Trek ’09, but for me it was still another piece of forgettable summer schlock. Nice it tried to inject some ideas into its story. I appreciated the effort. Now if only they could try for some story and character coherence rather than tripping over themselves in making shout-outs to Treks past.

And… I don’t see that coming from these writers.
A shame.

Oh well, new Planet of the Apes next year. So I’m happy.

95. crone - August 6, 2013

And if we’re going with older established directors for a 50th anniversary film, what about Robert Zemeckis? Is that insane?

96. Dennis - August 6, 2013

The next movie better be ORIGINAL!!!!!!

Otherwise count me out!

It was bad enough that STD was a major rip off of “Star Trek II with scenes taken from Raiders of the Lost Ark, SW:Episode 2, Avengers and Captain America.

97. Craiger - August 6, 2013

Dennis, I was thinking the same thing. STID was a redo of TWOK except in reverse and the Vengeance was the Reliant and I liked ST 2009. Still makes me wonder if they are running out of ideas and have just decided to reboot TOS on film.

98. Dennis - August 6, 2013

The whole thing was pretty bad. The idea of British Khan was bad. But Khan went into space way before ENT. So that was a REAL screw up!

To use Khan was a pretty lame with a very bad ‘hope’ of trying to cash in on ST II. It just didn’t work. I laughed at Kirk’s death scene because it was so bad and unrealistic. So far ST II will be the beloved film for another generation, hands down!

99. Will - August 6, 2013

Just want to say what I feel about the “JJ verse”. It COULD have worked. I really liked ’09. If the director/writers/producers took advantage of the opportunity to be creative about the sequel, it would have been interesting. STID has turned me off. Using Khan was a major mistake IMO. I felt that BC was wasted in this role. He could have been his own classic villain. I am honestly not interested in what happens with the next movie. I assume it will be the last for this group, as it seems Hollywood is into trilogies and letting the writing team complete their arc or whatever. It’s a shame because I really like the cast, but this version of Star Trek just doesn’t do it for me. I know its a rant, but I just felt like getting it out there.

100. Greg2600 - August 6, 2013

While I thought that despite the vomit that passed itself off as a script John Chu’s GI Joe Retaliation actually wasn’t that bad. The lack of idiotic CGI was a huge plus. But the script was terrible.

That said, the total lack of originality from the Trek writing Duo leaves me even less interested in this next film.

101. Craiger - August 6, 2013

Dennis, I still thought the cast performances were good its just the story that was bad.

I sometimes think they could have just done a full reboot with TOS and their was no need for an alternate timeline. They could still have both Universe’s, Roddenberry’s and B&B’s Trek and Abrams’ Trek.

102. Puccia - August 6, 2013

This whole new Bad Robot Star Trek was plain and simple the wrong way to continue the future of this franchise. Were the movies enjoyable, yes, did they have a lot of flaws, Yes. Are they memorable NO. I watch all the Star
Trek movies at least once a year, I dont see myself re-watching these anytime soon. Star Trek is not meant to be a blockbuster franchise, its a way to tell a lot of stories, it needs to be a series or a cartoon (Clone wars like quality) and not these action movies. No matter what I will always see a Star Trek movie, but Paramount needs to make this something that fans will want every week and earn a nice profit along the way. I even miss enterprise at this point

103. David - August 6, 2013

This whole new Bad Robot Star Trek was plain and simple the wrong way to continue the future of this franchise. Were the movies enjoyable, yes, did they have a lot of flaws, Yes. Are they memorable NO. I watch all the Star
Trek movies at least once a year, I dont see myself re-watching these anytime soon. Star Trek is not meant to be a blockbuster franchise, its a way to tell a lot of stories, it needs to be a series or a cartoon (Clone wars like quality) and not these action movies. No matter what I will always see a Star Trek movie, but Paramount needs to make this something that fans will want every week and earn a nice profit along the way. I even miss enterprise at this point

104. MJ - August 6, 2013

I am sticking with my Rupert Wyatt major prediction.

105. MJ - August 6, 2013

cartoon? Wtf? Really?

106. Brevard - August 6, 2013

If any of this is true, then Star Trek 3 is dead in the water. I heard that Paramount did consider other writers, most notably the writers of Thor and X Men: First Class. But that they have decided to stay with Orci and Kurtzman (minus Lindlehof–so, at least there is one plus). G.I. Joe is not exactly the franchise from which I would find a director for a 50 year old iconic franchise like Trek. Doesn’t matter, really, who directs at this point. With the same writers, we will get the same warmed-over left-overs from previous Trek incarnations.

107. RaymondS - August 6, 2013

SO many of these fans here were the very same ones screaming for a return of Khan as the villian. I was with the other group begging for a new and original story. The Khan-ites got what they wanted. How many of them are still glad they got their wish?

I also liked ST2009, but I was terribly disappointed with this new derivitive mess. We really do need a new writing team to bring back some semblance of Classic Trek. For a 50th anniversary film, I think it would be an opportune time to somehow work in some cameos from past Trek actors.

108. David - August 6, 2013

104, I loved the clone wars and Tron Uprising, thought they were a good way to continue the stories, I would love a TOS cartoon, even using shatner and nimoy Stewart, frakes , etc , it would be a great way to continue and maybe find a way to even correct Generations

109. David - August 6, 2013

and I would rather have a Cartoon then another INTO DARKNESS

110. Hugh Hoyland - August 6, 2013

Not sure about the director, but good news to hear Bob and Alex are close to returning to pen the next one!

I (along with most other fans) enjoyed the heck out of STID and IMO its one of, if not the best Star Trek movie of the bunch! Keep em coming guys.

111. Jonboc - August 6, 2013

#72. “Wow. Why all the negativity towards into darkness? ”

Don’t worry, just the usual squeaky-wheel, armchair quarterbacks that represent but a tiny minuscule fraction of the millions of people who saw Into Darkness. The rest of us…those who loved Into Darkness…those who are responsible for the great reviews on Rotten Tomatoes…those who fully support the return of fun Star Trek…the millions who are NOT clamoring for Riker’s adventures aboard the Titan or yearning for a return to the dull days of yesteryear where Picard sips tea while Worf struggles with the issues of raising a small Klingon boy…can’t wait for the next movie. I can’t wait for Bob and Alex to craft another exciting tale with Kirk and company for 2016!

112. Craiger - August 6, 2013

No way ST 3 will be out for 2016, especially with Orci and Kurtzman having other TV projects and possible movies going on. Paramount is going to loose any momentum STID had just like they did with ST 2009.

113. David - August 6, 2013

110, It was an enjoyable movie but wont have have any lasting effect, 20 years ago it will be forgotten by the Star Trek community, its not only about returning to yesteryear, i just don’t like the idea of 3 stories in a 7 year period in a universe that I know its not going to continue in 4 years from now.

114. Dennis - August 6, 2013

We didn’t need a complete reboot of TOS to begin with. That is just a bunch of garbage the studio and those that hated trek were trying to ram down the fans throats.

After the 5 year period after NEMESIS and ENT. There should of been a new series set 20 years later.

All NEW cast.
All new dynamics.

In 20 years anything could of happened. That way you don’t get a rehash of a rehash of a rehash which is what we are getting right now.

d

115. The Keeper - August 6, 2013

Lets face it folks, Paramount simply wants to put us all out of their misery by paying big money to Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman to write a thrown together crap feast for the 50th anniversary instead of actually being progressive enough to fan out and ask scifi writers to submit ideas and outlines for the next Star Trek film that will honor the 50th Anniversary.

You see it doesn’t really matter “who” directs, but we do need a well written original story that we simply will not get with Roberto Oreo and Alex Kluckzman .
I mean just look at that picture above of them, two retard clowns standing ready to jerk us off more then ever with their simplistic Khan vs. Klingon Vs Federation story which we already know the out come of. That being a complete waste of time money and effort.

There just has to be some one out there in the Paramount ranks who is actually reading this and is willing to pitch the idea of asking award winning scifi writers to submit ideas for the next Star Trek film instead of wasting all our time with these two hacks.

Common, there must be some one!!!

116. Lemingsworth Bint - August 6, 2013

Do these sock puppets really believe they’re fooling anyone?

The fan polls have already been counted. Paramount already knows how this movie was received.

117. Hat Rick - August 6, 2013

I feel awful if I’m perceived as criticizing STID in any way since I’ve been such a big supporter of it. But I’m not actually criticizing the movie, but rather the continuation of the mindset that has engendered — let’s face it — a slightly disappointing box office take. That’s all I’m saying. Nothing against the “Supreme Court” of Trek, the writers / producers of Abrams’ Trek. Nothing at all.

I’m simply saying, and have said in the open thread, that we do need to open our minds to allowing fresh ideas. Young minds, fresh ideas. Isn’t that the Trek way? The Keeper has just said something similar. (I don’t think of the writers as hacks, however; I think they did a very creditable job and I’m very, very happy with STID and would gladly see it again and again on Blu-ray.)

Now, I will confess a little something about STID: I only saw it twice in the theater. That’s very atypical of me. I saw ST(2009) something like six or seven times in the theater. But this may not be anything other than my schedule and other things going on in my life. I still think of STID as just fantastic and a great SF movie as well as a summertime romp.

Timing is everything; okay, maybe not everything, but a whole lot. And the four years between the movies — that was a bad thing. A very bad thing. And timing is also important because we are at a crossroads. Do we, at this juncture, want to introduce some new people to the writing table, or do we want to go with the same team, almost exactly? After all, with Lindelof not committed to the the movie any more, there’s at least that one extra seat.

Paramount is very careful with its money. It must be killing some of its accountants that this movie was $40 million more costly than ST(2009) and yet pulled in a smaller domestic box office. If it’d cost $150 million, it’s possible that this movie would have been seen as a much greater success. But since it cost almost $200 million, it’s being compared in some quarters with franchises like Transformers and Superman and Avengers and Iron Man and Fast and Furious and Bond, not to mention Star Wars, rather than the records of its previous movies, and the fact is that in no monetary dimension does the Star Trek movie franchise compare to those.

So what we need is a real examination of what to do, and how to preserve what we have, to make Trek even better than it is. This is why I’m talking about some changes, and this is why I think that some change is good.

We don’t want the final sequel to be another slight disappointment / moderate success, let alone a failure. We don’t want to have to say, “But it scored over 80% on Rotten Tomatoes and the cinema-goer index is through the roof!” Not if we want Trek to continue to live long and prosper and attract money and talent and media adoration.

So, yes, Trek is stories, but Trek is also about existing. And in Hollywood, you can’t exist very well without money.

118. Dennis - August 6, 2013

@The Keeper

HAHA Outstanding!!

That photo looks VERY bad!

119. MJ - August 6, 2013

Craiger, you miss the point – the whole reason why they are about to decide on a new director, only 2 months after STID came out, points to Paramount definitely pushing for a 2016 release.

120. Randall Williams - August 6, 2013

Pssst! I have a surprising idea for you.

I bet O & K haven’t even sat down yet to begin talking about the
sequel with Paramount or themselves. Looking at their work,
it appears they are “wait till the last minute” writers; write it quick
and fast (screw plot holes) and get it into production and try to
quick-cut over the plot holes during post-production.

Just a thought.

121. MJ - August 6, 2013

David,

A Shat, Nimoy and Frakes cartoon? Those guys are like nearly 250 years combined now. That ship has sailed, dude.

Wow, I’m sorry, but that is just a sad and stale idea. What’s next, bringing back Mr. Spock lunch boxes? Lol

122. MJ - August 6, 2013

STID was’t as good as Trek 2009, but all of this tremendous negativity is just not warranted. The movie was well received and well reviewed by movie goers worldwide – that is a fact.

Its just like ST3 coming out after WOK – people had unrealistic expectations give that ST 2009 was just so freaking great.

123. Will - August 6, 2013

So basically it’s kind of confirmed we’re just gonna get another crappy movie.

Maybe they can call it iTrek 3 : The Search for Plot.

124. david - August 6, 2013

120, I disagree, may not be a new idea but I would enjoy it, has the ship sailed of course it has doesnt mean it wouldnt be enjoyable. I love the new Dallas and it was great to see Larry Hagman again untill he passed away, y not have some more TOS Kirk and Spock or TNG Stewart before they pass.

125. Data - August 6, 2013

I believe the writers screw up the movie more than a director. I am happy JJ is out of it but noooooo not the same writers again.
We need exploration, space adventure, new scientific phenomenons, danger of space as villain… not revenge stories.
Karl Urban in a recent interview has expressed the same views no more revenge stories….

126. dmduncan - August 6, 2013

John M. Chu for director? The guy’s filmography is distinguished to me by the lack of any films he has made that I like or even want to see. I hope that one is not true.

127. Anonymous Coward - August 6, 2013

I’m not interested in another crapfest from anyone at Bad Robot. ST09 and ST-ID were headache inducing nonsense. Both movies were utterly unwatchable-both physically and story-wise.
As a long-time fan I feel they have nothing to contribute to the ST universe (parallel or otherwise).

There are some 40 yrs of novels that are light-years ahead of both of these scripts. Paramount would do well to pick any one at random and put it on film.

128. dmduncan - August 6, 2013

103. MJ – August 6, 2013

Well that’s a much better option than John Chu. Rise of the Planet of the Apes was really good, but what makes you think Rupert Wyatt is a candidate? Has he been mentioned?

129. DS9 IN PRIME TIME - August 6, 2013

@boborci

Please do something new!

130. Jannek - August 6, 2013

what about willam shatner himself to direct? so he finally is involved without problems with the story :-) ;-)

131. Disinvited - August 6, 2013

#120. MJ – August 6, 2013

What’s with the animation aggravation? TAS was the first award winning Trek in its original setting [Emmy], television. I believe that earned it enough respect to be taken seriously when suggested as it was.

132. I am to Smurfy - August 6, 2013

So why did the article conviently forget to mention that Chu directed Step Up 2 3D and Justin Biebers concert film?

133. I am to Smurfy - August 6, 2013

MJ
Into Darkness does not hold up well on repeated viewings like 09 has.
and the fact tht its totally out of first run theatres just under 2mths after opening speaks loudly.

134. Vultan - August 6, 2013

Rupert Wyatt would be a great choice to direct.

But still… the writers… oh man… not looking forward to seeing the whale probe “re-envisioned” rising from the ocean and transforming into a giant squirt gun that floods San Francisco.

;-)

135. I am to Smurfy - August 6, 2013

After creating a great way to tell new stories via an Alt universe, JJ and co chose to boldly go where man Trek episodes/movies have gone before.
retreading and rehashing rather than creating an exciting new story.

136. MJ - August 6, 2013

DM, I have run across a couple of minor hints on the internet that lead me to think that Wyatt is a dark horse in this contest.

Disinvited, its really a cartoon based on Shat, Nimoy and Fraked that I was objecting to. Nobody under 30 would care.

137. Buzz Cagney - August 6, 2013

Still, at least it gave us a reason to come back on here, eh, Vults!
Hey, MJ. How’s things fella?

138. Vultan - August 6, 2013

#133

The bad guy will have to be British. It’s the law. So a giant squirt gun and space whales may be in your future, my friend, just as the high school career counselor said they would be.

139. Buzz Cagney - August 6, 2013

I actually said that I wanted to be a Hollywood writer, Vults, but they told me its a very difficult job. Well, I guess it might have been before the advent of Windows and its handy cut and paste capability.

140. Vultan - August 6, 2013

Nah, Buzz, it’s not cutting and pasting. You gotta have a talent for rearranging things. So for “Star Trek Off The Deep End,” we’re gonna see Uhura in command while Kirk fan dances and flirts with Scotty.

141. MJ - August 6, 2013

Hey, Buzz – good! Thanks for asking.

142. Whatever - August 6, 2013

Somewhere in America, a smartphone is ringing and someone picks it up.

Kurtzman: Who is sis?

Orci: It’s me, Bob. Listen, I just received a legal notice in the mail saying that we apparently have some sort of contractual obligation or something.

Kurtzman: Uh, like what?

Orci: I don’t know man, some kind of sequel or something to a movie we wrote a couple years back.

Kurtzman: Wait, let me just think for a minute there… … nope, nothin’.

Orci: Star Trek?

Kurtzman: Oh yeah, wasn’t that the one with the space ship? I thought we already did that?

Orci: Looks like they want us to do another one.

Kurtzman: Huh… You already started working on the script?

Orci: Nah, I thought we could do that once principal photography has wrapped up.

143. Vultan - August 6, 2013

Has anyone heard anything about the new Twilight Zone movie? I thought I heard Rupert Wyatt might direct it. Could’ve been someone else.

144. Buzz Cagney - August 6, 2013

#137 good to hear.

So, Vults, you are saying you must take whats been done before and t rehash it while pretending you’ve done something totally original, Vults?
Sounds unlikely to me. I can’t see anybody falling for it. And I can’t see anybody actually having the nerve to attempt it…… !!

145. Trekboi - August 6, 2013

Basement Blogger

Obviously I was saying Transformers Dark of the Moon was
“Great” compared to Revenge of the bad sequel (Fallen)

146. StelArian - August 7, 2013

Jon Chu????

I was hopping Paramount to learn a lesson and try to make a 3rd move be something between Trek 09 and Darkness.

Looks like they want to go for even more action!

For sure my kids with love it (they liked Darkness more than 09) but not me!

147. KevinA Melbourne Australia - August 7, 2013

Rupert Wyatt did a fantastic job on Apes! I’m sick of bang, bang movies that just keep upping the action and noise. Rise was one of the best Sci-Fi flick I’ve seen for years (and I see them all!)

I would be real excited about Wyatt stepping into the Directors chair. JJ take note, please!

148. Stephan - August 7, 2013

The more I read these comments about stid being a dumb summer movie the more I get the feeling a lot of people didn’t get it.
To be honest a lot of people I know, who liked stid, say about every trek before tng that it is a little dumb and silly, especially this awful movie called wrath of Khan. I’m just saying that opinion not only can be different, it is!

149. werner held - August 7, 2013

PLEASE NEW WRITERS….!

150. Hat Rick - August 7, 2013

@Stephan (143), I share your view that STID was a fantastic movie, and it still is. It works on a number of levels and we could endlessly analyze the various themes within it.

The only flaw it seems to have is, unfortunately, a big one, and that’s the one that begins with the “box” and ends with the word “office.” And it’s a two-word phrase.

STID, box office-wise, is a moderate success. And, now we learn that it hasn’t “broken even.” Okay, granted, that’s “Hollywood accounting” for you, but still, have we seen that kind of news about other tentpoles? So one thing seems to pop out at you — either STID was overhyped by Paramount, or it slightly underperformed in terms of the almighty dollar.

The saving grace is that it did super terrific foreign box office — almost twice that of ST (2009) — and that’s nothing to sneeze at.

So we have news that Karl Urban wants something more original for ST 3, and we have a number of Trek fans that say that maybe it’s time to go for classic SF writers.

Mind you, Paramount still likes ST as a franchise and “Paramount and Skydance are eager” to continue it, according to a recently quoted industry newspaper. That’s good. The only question is, can we make the prospects for Trek even better?

Because, even if ST 3 is made, and now I’m at about 90 to 95 percent certain it will be (which is slightly lower than when I last made this estimate), the question will then become, what happens after that?

If ST 3 is a relative bomb, or even underperforms significantly, I think you’ll find a lot of soul-searching, not to mention unemployed cast and crew. (Maybe they have better gigs now on offer; I think some of them have very active non-Trek prospects.)

I think I must have said this before in the last month or so, but I do believe that we need a true believer in Trek to move the franchise forward. Someone in the mold of the late and much-missed Gene Roddenberry or Robert Justman. The problem is that the original creators are largely gone. Or, as with even the Rival Star Franchise, they’ve moved on with our lives (Lucas seems to be enjoying his semi-retirement, and isn’t it well deserved?).

The up-and-coming franchise with vigor and vim aplenty is, of course, Avatar. And James Cameron is still in his prime. Is that a coincidence?

I want to emphasize that Cameron has confirmed that Avatar will have three — count ‘em, three — sequels.

The bottom line, to coin a phrase, is that there are actual people with actual skin in the game who move the ball forward in the game of Hollywood. Corporations don’t have souls; they don’t have inner motivations; they don’t play ball particularly well. They’re driven by share prices, profit margins, and net income. That’s their function.

Hollywood doesn’t make movies. It makes money. That’s its function.

So some of us, well, we’re just very concerned that we don’t see a clear way forward here. We want the best for Trek, just as some classicists want the best for Shakespeare or Milton or, god help us, Aristophanes. In Hollywoodspeak, that means we want eyeballs on screens. What can we do to attract those eyeballs, and why didn’t STID attract, as much, the American ones?

Sometimes I think that we fans have a lot more interest in keeping Trek going for the sake of Trek than a lot of those who actually make money off it. Hell, who am I kidding? It’s not “sometimes.” It’s practically all the time. The sad thing is, I may be right.

151. Stephan - August 7, 2013

Please new fans…!

152. PaulB - August 7, 2013

#144 Stephan– Oh, please spare us the “people didn’t get it” nonsense. Folks tried the same bit when people criticized the stupidity in Prometheus (“you just don’t get how deep and brilliant the film is”), and it’s a joke.

We “get” STID just fine. In fact, those who criticize the film probably “get” it better than those who loved it because we’re thinking critically and noticing the many thefts–sorry, “homages”–in STID. It’s an original pastiche of what other films have done before (and better), and it even rips off ST09!

Yes, opinions can be different, and LOTS of people liked STID. But that doesn’t mean that anyone else “didn’t get it.”

STID is a very simplistic movie: the good guys learn the big lesson that they have to, um, act like good guys. Yeah, there’s SO much to get in this movie!

153. Toonloon - August 7, 2013

It amazes me the lack of understanding that some of you idiots possess here.

Orci & Kurtzman et al have done a fantastic job reviving a moribund franchise. Paramount have supported it by giving it $100,000,000 budgets. They have been critical successes as well as box office successes. STID may not have hit numbers that the brass wanted but there are still home video sales to go yet.

I don’t know why I bother reading these posts as the majority are made by idiots.

154. Captain Slow - August 7, 2013

I’ve never heard of any of these directors, but I’m glad that Orci and Kurtzman will probably be back. I know a lot of people aren’t but I loved STID and don’t want to take the chance that new writers who don’t know Star Trek will ruin it.

155. Jeyl - August 7, 2013

If they do indeed end up writing it, I’ll see it as long as they follow this one simple goal. Earth is no where in the script. It’s not visited, mentioned or seen. That would be a welcome change.

Space is the place.

156. Barney Fife - August 7, 2013

#147: WORD!! Couldn’t have said it better myself.

157. Navy - August 7, 2013

@149

Kahn will wake himself up on earth and steal the Excelsior prototype and come after the Enterprise for double revenge.

158. AJ - August 7, 2013

For the 50th anniversary, maybe this will be the Galaxy Quest tie-in we’ve all been waiting for.

I don’t dislike what Orci & Kurtzman have hammered out in the last two films, though having Spock whine out the word “Khan” over Kirk’s dead body was not a stellar moment in the last one.

Seriously, if this is the 50th anniversary, don’t they have to do some fourth-wall stuff? Or bring in all the spin-off crews to frame the story? How about George Takei as Admiral Sulu in a pre-film featurette? He’s a huge star these days for all the right reasons. Imagine the crowds who will turn out for him. He can be Kirk & Spock Prime’s honeymoon-shuttle conductor when they finally admit all the fanfic was true and get married.

Otherwise, it’ll be the Klingons,I guess. Or they can do an ‘exploration’ episode where they can be on the 5YM, collect rocks/scan for anomalies, and then run into the Klingons.

Hoping the story will be “original” on the franchise’s 50th anniversary is a non-starter. Just make it worthy of the name “Enterprise,” and don’t muck it up.

159. James Cannon - Runcorn Trekkie UK - August 7, 2013

STID was a good movie up until the Khan reveal.
There wasnt a need for it. If he simply would have been John Harrison I could have accepted it. But there felt no reason for him to be Khan.

From that moment, the film went downhill. (It still didnt stop me beating my record of watching a Trek film in the flicks … 9 times ! :-) ).

Also, never heard of John Chu. No thanks.
Orci & Kurtzman have also had their chance. Time for fresh blood.

160. Spock's Bangs - August 7, 2013

Orci and Alex are back. Trek 09 and Into Darkness have brought Trek back from the grave. The movies have enjoyed critical and box office success that the original and TNG movies could only dream of. JJ Trek will be back for another installment, if you think orherwise, you’re just plain delusional. But please, no Chu. GI Joe was delayed a year for good reason, it just plain sucked it.

161. Damian - August 7, 2013

I personally think Paramount will reduce the next movies budget, which may not be such a bad thing. TWOK was an excellent movie with a reduced budget. It forces the team to be creative, and that’s always a positive.

Story wise, I posted once before, I always thought the novel “Chain of Attack” by Gene DeWeese would make an excellent movie. Trapped in another galaxy surrounded by a war that’s been going on for centuries. It had an excellent, ominous set-up with the Enterprise encountering dead planet after dead planet until they come across the warring factions. And Kirk and co. are forced to try to get the 2 sides to talk after centuries of war. It would have great action and battle scenes, and highlight the best of the Federation ideals when they get the 2 sides to finally talk about peace. If anyone gets a chance, the book was a great read. I’ll keep plugging it, even though it’s unlikely the team would write a screenplay based on a novel. There are many great novels that would have looked good on screen, but this particular book always stood out for me. I always thought this book would have made a great movie.

162. Stephan - August 7, 2013

146. PaulB

I don’t know how many people didn’t get the movie, but your posting shows that at least you apparently didn’t get it. And no,I won’t explain it to you because it would be like explaining a punch line of a joke. But you can be assured, there is a lot more in the movie than you write about in your posting.

163. Yanks - August 7, 2013

@ 77. Navy – August 6, 2013
I think you should take a break from posting URLs.

It’s beyond your pay grade it seems. :P

============================================

Yeah, no kidding. :-)

What’s your rank BTW?

164. Gary - August 7, 2013

Here’s an idea. Get rid of the writers and hire a real bonafide science fiction writer like they did in the original series. Maybe then we would get a great story.

165. T'Cal - August 7, 2013

At this link (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/alex-kurtzman-roberto-orci-return-599706), it reads:

The next Star Trek film is untitled and unscheduled, but Paramount and Skydance are eager to continue the franchise, which will celebrate its 50th anniversary in 2016. Stars Chris Pine, Zachary Quinto and Zoe Saldana are expected to return. Though Star Trek Into Darkness earned $451 million worldwide to date, it hasn’t turned a profit yet thanks to a $190 million budget. Still, the studio was heartened by the ever-important international performance of Into Darkness, which was nearly twice as much as 2009′s Star Trek’s international haul.

Uh…cost $190M and earned $451M but “it still hasn’t turned a profit.” WHAT!?!

166. Aurore - August 7, 2013

From a Collider article posted two days ago:

“…A source tells Cinematallica that Wyatt is ‘virtually a lock at this stage in the game’ to sign on to the project. This is far from an official announcement, but there is a compelling case for Wyatt’s chances since it falls in line with what Steve heard….”

However, from the same article…

“…Chu’s reps informed the Huffington Post that ‘Chu has not been contacted about the project.’ On its own, this could just be your standard denial for a J.J. Abrams production. Paramount is the home to both Star Trek and G.I. Joe, so they could make it happen if Chu was game..”

(Link if authorized, here) :

http://collider.com/star-trek-3-news-rupert-wyatt/

167. MassiveTrekFan - August 7, 2013

While I would love to see more exploration in the next film. I just don’t see it happening. To fully develop the exploration theme you need a TV series to do that. That is why I hope we get some sort of new Series on TV. I loved both the JJ Star Trek movies. I have been a fan for over thirty years. I look forward to the third film and while JJ probably won’t direct he will be involved in some fashion.

168. Aurore - August 7, 2013

@ 160. Addendum.

I am aware of the fact that Mr. Chu’s representatives have already denied the report, nevertheless, as stated in the above article :

“One of the first sources to report this is Latino Review, who have a good track record when it comes to Trek, they were one of the first (if not the first) to call out Khan as the next villain well before other news sites did.”

…Oh, as far as I remember, they WERE indeed, the first…but, I could be wrong…

:))

At any rate, we’ll see what happens next.

169. Aurore - August 7, 2013

Correction.

@ 160. Addendum = @ 166. Addendum ( post starting with “From a Collider article posted two days ago” etc…)

170. Disinvited - August 7, 2013

#165. T’Cal – August 7, 2013

This is because, on average, studios are lucky if they recover 45% of the worldwide gross after a movie’s had its run. Even harder when they have to divide up what they recover with the licenser, CBS, and partners Bad Robot and Skydance.

171. Yanks - August 7, 2013

@ 165. T’Cal – August 7, 2013

Uh…cost $190M and earned $451M but “it still hasn’t turned a profit.” WHAT!?!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yeah, these numbers boggle my mind too….

172. Mustard Shirt - August 7, 2013

This is bad.

Chu is the wrong choice… unless you want a no brainer action movie. Not for me. Surely they can do better than this.

173. crazydaystrom - August 7, 2013

7. Newdivide1701
“Perhaps Oscar winning director Kathryn Bigelow so there can at least be a woman director for a Star Trek movie instead of just the series.”
__________
I’d be surprised if Ms. Bigelow would do Trek but that WOULD be awesome. This guy would love to have a talented woman direct a Star Trek film, Newdivide.

174. CmdrR - August 7, 2013

102 et al — I thought Into Darkness WAS that cartoon.

I want a real movie that I can promote to friends without having to say “just turn off your brain while you watch it and never think about the plot again.”

I have lost count of the number of recent movies that devolved into forgettable fistfights, badly edited explosions, and convoluted plots that come with apologies (it’s too HARD to defrost the other Eugenics!). PLEASE give me stories about people I’d like to know and see resolve their problems. A space battle would be nice, too, not just the E getting ripped a new aft hold by a much bigger ship.

175. Barney Fife - August 7, 2013

#172: Don’t call us Shirley. ;-)

176. dmduncan - August 7, 2013

Wyatt over Chu, any day. If anyone’s out there is counting, that’s my vote.

177. Jeff O'Connor - August 7, 2013

Really glad Chu isn’t actually a contender and Orci and Kurtzman are returning.

Wyatt would be a cool pick.

178. Other Guy - August 7, 2013

Do I really need to comment on this article?

179. Curious Cadet - August 7, 2013

@158. AJ,
“For the 50th anniversary, maybe this will be the Galaxy Quest tie-in we’ve all been waiting for.”

Haha, god I hope not … But I don’t think the “chompers” are out of the question for Orci and Kurtzman, nor is the exploding alien gag.

—————
“How about George Takei as Admiral Sulu in a pre-film featurette? He’s a huge star these days for all the right reasons. Imagine the crowds who will turn out for him.”

Hmmmmmm. Maybe, but I think he now falls into the self parody area like Shatner. But that’s not to say these guys couldn’t redeem themselves …

The one thing Orci, Kurtzman and the rest seem to do very well are opening dramatic teasers — the dying girl in the hospital, George Kirk saving the crew of the Kelvin …

Something that just might work is tying a moment from Prime Spock’s past into the plot of the next movie. Perhaps have Shatner, Nimoy, Takei, maybe even Nichols and Koenig, sitting around having a drink, reminiscing about old times. A crack could be made about how Bones is probably late because he wouldn’t step into the transporter. A toast to an unclaimed glass of scotch for the friend who couldnt make it. In that scene have Nimoy and Kirk share a private exchange that will contain a key point to be called-back later in the film between young Kirk and Spock.

Then dissolve to Prime Spock staring into space from an observation port lounge on a ship nearing arrival to New Vulcan. They drop out of warp into a battle (possibly with the Klingons), Prime Spock rushes to his cabin to send a message, then the ship is destroyed. Thus finally solving the Prime Spock dilemma. Then cut to a scene in Kirk’s cabin where Spock, Kirk, Scotty and McCoy are all in attendance (Uhura will probably have to be there too) paying tribute to Prime Spock. This movie will finally be about the growth of Kirk, Spock & McCoy’s relationship.

There you have it, a touching, nostalgic open if directed right.

I don’t think involving any of the TNG-forward crews makes sense. This is the 50th anniversary of the beginning of the franchise, which is TOS. The franchise is too new for audiences to start confusing them with the tie-ins with the dozens of other characters that came later. Just honor the original in the film, pass the torch from the old crew to the new (if that’s even truly necessary).

Keep TNG totally separate. If there ever was a series to completely reboot it’s the later ones — brand new origin story, etc. in the new alternate universe, it can essentially be exactly that. If you want to link them, please no cheesy time travel episodes. Simply have the 24th century Enterprise crew watching a mission report by the 23rd century crew to gather data on something they are revisiting. Maybe even a holodeck reenactment, so the audience perceives it initially as part of the film, with the characters they are already familiar with, and then introduce the new crew a la Enterprise finale.

180. Adam - August 7, 2013

158.

Galaxy Quest: The Next Generation

I like this. A lot.

181. SirBroiler - August 7, 2013

Anyone who thinks Nick Meyer can provide a modern Trek movie is somewhat warped. It was clear how out of touch he had become with Undiscovered Country. He’s just to old school to meet the expectations and sensibilities of today’s audiences.

Wrath of Khan was truly a “happy accident” as Bob Ross would say. All the stars aligned – and it really came down to a great script – yes, the directing helped too. But the story and the character dynamics are what made it a great movie. Lightning in a bottle.

There were lots of missteps with STID. I was a fervent supporter of revisiting the Khan story – but everything from the off-screen discovery of the Botany Bay, the choice of using Khan instead of another crew member, the selection of Cumby to play Khan (totally wrong in my opinion), the complete botching of Carol Marcus, are just the start. The rehash of Wrath for the last third of the movie was pointless and a surefire way to piss off fans. This all makes me lose faith in Kurtzman/Orci and frankly JJ to put together a Trek movie that meets expectations of both old and new fans. Unfortunately, the mistakes far outweighed what was good in that movie.

I’m disappointed that the same writers will be behind this again. Bob and Alex had two chances. Time for someone else to take the reigns of this franchise and hopefully right the many mistakes made the last go.

182. David B - August 7, 2013

50 years of Star Trek, over 300 years of galactic history is about to be destroyed in all timelines and universes and only one man of multiple generations can save it.
His name is Kirk.

Go write the story….

183. Marja - August 7, 2013

39, Ahmed, I understand that, of course, being former military. Uhura is not only a master of Communications, but also a master of languages and translation. According to ST09’s official movie website she speaks 133 languages, therefore would be instrumental to any negotiations with alien races done by the captain of the Enterprise.

59 Keeper, “Spielberg and Lucas foresaw the fall of the film industry, now witness why it will come true. Hollywood is controlled by Idiots in charge.” Ironic, innit, because Spielberg and Lucas both made billions on flashy action plots. Spielberg, at least, went on to helm “Schindler’s List” and “Lincoln”!

“Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman may be able to write convincing dialogue, but as far as original stories and mind bending plots, they simply don’t have what it takes. Paramount will never learn or listen. Even this laughable writing team won’t listen. They are sure to go where there’s no need to go again almost in spite of what the fans say.” Regretfully I agree.

66 Keeper, We fans won’t have the “last laugh” if they kill the franchise. I want Trek to live long.

61 Red Dead, but so cheaply that it does for sh*t at the box office? Save some $ on CGI and building costs, not on the director. For God’s sake. Chu may be an up-and-comer but if his only experience is action films like “GI Joe Retaliation” we can kiss Trek goodbye. Why would Paramount save some money only to kill this franchise? If they decide to go ACTION ACTION ACTION for Trek, it’ll lose.

68 Phil, Does a “first look” contract mean that Paramount MUST hire Orci/Kurtzman? Does it prohibit Paramount from adding writers to the team? For crissakes if we have a release date after 2016, it’ll not only insult generations of fans and Star Trek production and acting teams of the past, it’s TOO LONG from the release of STiD. Who’s gonna care about it besides fans? All that marketing [and BAD marketing to boot] did not raise STiD above its predecessor … Can Paramount not release Orci/Kurzman from their Trek contract [or sue to put in new writers] if O/K can’t work on the ST project within the next year? O … M … G.

78 Ahmed, “To be fair, O&K are not dumb writers, they know how to write action movies that bring in millions of dollars. I think they are intentionally dumbing down their movies to make the studios happy. … Just look the reports today that the Weinstein company is cutting 20 minutes from the upcoming “Snowpiercer” movie US release because, wait for it, the audiences is too stupid to understand it !! [plus your note about Weinstein shortening movies to 2 hours]” Oh my lord. This is sad news indeed for the US, US schooling, and the attention span of many young folk. Now I know … and yet “Man of Steel” dragged on for 2 hours 23 minutes! [Though I must say I was a big fan of the first 45-60 minutes, Supe’s Origin Story.]

I think Orci and Kurtzman understand Trek. I just think they’re being forced by studio economics to cut character and dramatic exposition in favor of ACTION, EXPLOSIONS and GIANT ODDS for Our Crew to Overcome. And this is SUCH A TIRED PREMISE.

Upon reflection and having seen STiD over five times, I do believe either the writers or JJ have favorite tropes that detracted from the story: Kirk hanging off things; “Enterprise rising” from the water, from the clouds; big black ships; hanging around Earth. I did love the brief character bits [and as I’ve said I think they had to cram all of those into about 12 minutes of a 2-hour 3-minute movie]. As a side note, I’ve not yet heard any audience member laugh or mutter at “Khannn!”
I didn’t think Kirk’s death scene was dumb; its use perhaps was dumb, but it was beautifully acted by both Pine and Quinto.

I will not display enough “attitude” to stay away from the third ST movie to be produced, but I may not attend multiple times.

If Paramount is going to continue dumbing down Star Trek to appeal to “whomever” they are going to make it a completely forgettable franchise [how I hate that word applied to Trek] that people will not support as they have in the past. Trek without “ideas” is a sad Trek indeed.

184. David B - August 7, 2013

Review of STID.

Annoyed it was Khan, then interested again for 5 minutes on the potential change in character relationship between Kirk and Khan then face palm on all dialogue repeated from ST2 and pointless Kirk death knowing it will be fixed in another 5 minutes.

Stupid Doctor Who opening, how dull and in Star Trek in the lazy 23rd century hospital that looks just like one today no style at all.

What was actually worth remembering aside from the fade to the enterprise at the start?

Copying dialogue from older film ruined Superman Returns why did they think they could get away with it for Star Trek?

Watch STID then watch the early movies TOS era do these new films even resemble Star Trek anymore.

I am scared what JJ will do with Star Wars, I loved both franchises growing up and now one man has the opportunity to ruin two beloved series of films, you thought Lucas was bad, wait till you see what Jar Jar Abrams does with that!

185. Exverlobter - August 7, 2013

I would prefer Bryan Singer

186. Elias Javalis - August 7, 2013

I see reduced budget coming. Perhaps it is better this way, more powerful story – i would be happy having a crossover – to celebrate 50th Anniversary!!

187. dmduncan - August 7, 2013

182. David B – August 7, 2013

50 years of Star Trek, over 300 years of galactic history is about to be destroyed in all timelines and universes and only one man of multiple generations can save it.
His name is Kirk.

***

Sounds like a spoof with Carrot Top in the role of Kirk.

188. Marja - August 7, 2013

148 Stephan, I just wish STiD had cut some action sequences for better character and story development [reducing McCoy to Mr Metaphor was not so cool]. I’d have liked fewer explosions for more story concerning Marcus’s military direction for Starfleet, because that, I found fascinating. What would the politics have been? Did Pike agree with the militarization? And, a point important to any bureaucrat, how’d Marcus manage all the funding and ship building without knowledge of the Federation Council?

And no Khan. What a ridiculous inclusion! I say again the story would have been equally compelling if “Khan” had simply been a resentful Augment, a Section 31 project from years past, reactivated by Marcus.

150 HatRick, STiD hasn’t broken even because of ridiculous budget. $190M !! My goodness, they could have made a wonderful movie for $150M possibly less. The additional $40M was a waste IMHO, it did nothing to advance character or story, only a lot to amp up Trek to a level to try to compete with Marvel movies. They should have had better advance US publicity, opened 3 weeks earlier, and opened worldwide on the same day. Marketing for this movie was a MESS and cost them million$.

174 Cmdr R, GREAT coinage “a new aft hold” hahaha! [or is that after-my-time Naval Service talk?]
—————————————

Ugh, please no cross-overs with the original actors in their Trek roles. There was enough complaining about Nimoy’s Elder Spock appearance in STiD. I didn’t mind it, loved Nimoy’s delivery of “at great cost”.

189. Smike - August 7, 2013

For the first time EVER I do not feel excited by the prospect of a new Trek film. And this is BAD! It’s not that I don’t want to feel the excitement, but it simply is not here anymore.

I watched that bomb called NEM five times in 2002, I “fought” for the survival of ENT in the TrekUnited campaign, donating 300 bucks over a couple of weeks, I watched ST09 FOURTEEN times on the big screen and was blown away by it despite all the plotholes and lackluster motivation… Prior to STID I felt so excited by the “who is the villain” debate, speaking out for both Gary Mitchell and Khan in endless online sessions…while rewatching the classic films on Blu-Ray…

Then STID debuted and it was… well, it was far from being a bad film, but it simply was nothing special anymore… not even Picard-blowing-slow-mo-flowers-on-Baku kinda special, not even Row-row-row-your-boat kinda special… even the worst of the old films meant more to me than Transwarp-Beaming to Kronos, Khan’s superblood, James Tiberius Perfecthair and Alice Eve awhwardly posing in undies… yeah, it’s far better than most summer flicks this year, which is NOT difficult to achieve (apart from Man of Steel and Pacific Rim this summer season is a JOKE!), but it does not, by any means, make me wana look forward to the next one. If anything, I’d like to see a new TV show about the Five Year Mission set in the new timeline…

But no, we are probably going to get yet another supersized superweapon…make it a Klingon one this time…and a worn-out “let’s stop someone without any real motives from blowing up planets, stars and fleets”…

I’m excited about Avatars 2, 3 and 4, I’m looking forward to Star Wars 7-9, and I’m hyped about Peter Capaldi being cast as the Twelfth Doctor and I’m madly looking forward to Ender’s Game… but right now, I simply can’t get my hopes up for any Star Trek 3 or 13… I wish it was any different…

190. Phil - August 7, 2013

@183. First look just means that when a project lands at Paramount Bad Robot is the first production company to see it. Think of it as right of first refusal. If Bad Robot does not want to participate, then Paramount is free to shop it elsewhere. If Bad Robot takes the project, they are then free to hire writers, directors, and anyone else needed for the production. There is nothing that says that Bad Robot has to use Orci & Kurtzman, but as they have cultivated a relationship with the company, it would follow that they have an inside track on getting the work. Here’s a good example – JJ likes Michael Giacchino, and uses him extensively. However, John Williams will be scoring the upcoming SW movie.

I have no issues with O & K writing the next movie, they are capable. I do question their ability to meet a schedule, though, and based on how they got around to writing for STID, I’d not make any assumptions at this point that anyone is committed to a release in 2016.

191. Dennis - August 7, 2013

I would prefer Nicholas Meyer get a shot and restore Trek to its glory.

STD was horrible! Period. The ripping off of STII is unforgivable. The blatant scene rip off from other films is an embarrassment. All this praise for Abrams is really non deserving. This film was a bad extension of the already bad ST09.

ST:XIII The Search For Plot?

Get rid of the writers and get a new director.

192. Optimistic Doodle - August 7, 2013

Yeah, intense pressure on O & K to make Star Trek XIII as big as the upcoming new SW. AND being original. Hopefully more (good) writers may join the team! Also pressure on Michael Giacchino to come up with a stickier soundtrack than SW, awesome vibrations.

193. boborci - August 7, 2013

ok. enough irrelevancies. what should the next movie be about?

194. rtrj - August 7, 2013

193. boborci –

Star Trek… I’d like to say exploration, characters, etc. BUT that will really crash at the box office. I think Klingons and a total reboot of the Organians,
people are screaming as they read this. the purists want TOS as it was.
It wont work.

195. Ted C - August 7, 2013

I thought we made a deal to stop using the stupid term “JJ verse”!

196. Ted C - August 7, 2013

I wonder who will play Sybok in the next movie.

197. Hugh Hoyland - August 7, 2013

@193 boborci

Enterprise vs Borg?

198. Stephan - August 7, 2013

@Boborci:
Difficult question. I don’t have an answer for the topic the movie should be about. But right now I am reading “the grand design” by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, who btw has written for tng as well. And my thought was maybe the next movie could include some more of these great astrophysical phenomena Hawking is talking about. Hawking is really good at connecting physics with philosophy.
Maybe there is potential for a trek movie. I mean you already used the nanny worlds theory, but there us so much more what could lead to philosophical topics.
Did you read something from Hawking?

Stephan

199. Optimistic Doodle - August 7, 2013

The answer is not so much an alien race, but a story worthy to be sung ;-)

200. Stephan - August 7, 2013

Of course many not nanny worlds theory. Damn auto correct. ;-)

201. Matthew W - August 7, 2013

Give us a smart, cunning villain. No advantage in firepower. Just an advantage in strategy and experience—someone with a goal other than “revenge.” Could be a Klingon. Make Kirk and crew out-wit the enemy—-not outfight them. I don’t call the torpedo trick in STID that clever.

202. Praetor Tal - August 7, 2013

Gorns and Klingons and Romulans. Trouble from every which way…and the Enterprise crew solves it with a minimum of phasering. Some clever persuasion would be nice, maybe pitting the alien adversaries against each other to form an uneasy truce.

Still no article on Michael Ansara’s passing?

203. Frater Scibimus - August 7, 2013

193

Spock prime’s omni-universe omni-connection. Time shifts and destruction happening as he suffers his “aging disease.” Everyone, and I mean everyone, wants him dead before this disease destroys their sector of the galaxy. Our crew have to protect him from all threats and finally find a way to send him back home and end the threat. They get help from the only one person in his past who possibly could make it happen.

It’s our 50h anniversary, Roberto. Time for you to make it happen.

Peace

204. Brandon - August 7, 2013

I’m not one of the complainers I actually liked the first two movies, but can we actually get out there and discover something. I like Arthur C. Clarke stories that are mysterious and leave me with a sense of wonder. I’m tired of all the revenge plots. I’ve always liked movies like Alien and The Thing with mysterious and creepy aliens. I’ve often wondered about the first season Star Trek: The Next Generation episode “Conspiracy”. That episode still leaves me with an ominous unanswered question- Where did those alien parasites come from? What were their motives? And would we see them again?

205. Phil - August 7, 2013

@193. Explorers capture a giant gorilla, and put it on display on New Vulcan. It promptly escapes, carries Uhura away, and mayhem ensues.

Starring:
Chris Pine as Forrest Gump
Zoe Saldana as Fay Wray
Zachary Quinto as Rick Blaine
Karl Urban as Morticia Addams
and as the villain
Joan Rivers at Dot Matrix

Directed by Frank Oz

206. omegaman - August 7, 2013

Get ready for “The Voyage Home” revisited.

207. Ahmed - August 7, 2013

@ 193. boborci – August 7, 2013

“ok. enough irrelevancies. what should the next movie be about?”

For the next movie, I will simply echo what Karl Urban said in his interview with IGN

” I really think that what we should do from here, in my personal opinion, is strive to be original. Strive to be something different and new. You know, let’s not forget that Star Trek as envisioned was about space exploration. And it would be really wonderful to harness the spirit of that and apply it to the next film, so that we do something different than a revenge-based picture.”

That is what many fans want for the next movie. Something original & fresh. No revenge or black big ship or any of that stuff.

The fans should not dictate what the story should be about, just for the story to be new & not something that we seen before. Give us a Star Trek movie, not just the typical Summer blockbuster movie that was STID.

Can you confirm that just you & Alex are writing the movie & no one else is involved at this point ?

208. Nony - August 7, 2013

@boborci

Clearly there is only one option for STXIII — The Search For Pike! His katra has to be kicking around somewhere. I mean, Spock *did* do that mindmeld on him before he died…

Just retcon that Pike’s body was in cold storage, Spock and Old Spock can pop his soul back into him, Bones can fix him up with some leftover Magical Anti-Death Blood, and there you go, you’ve got Bruce Greenwood back!

Yes/no/maybe/please?

And there can be some pissed-off Klingons and Romulans joining forces against the Federation or something too.

209. ME!! - August 7, 2013

Joe 2 was entertaining in all the ways the first wasn’t.

Chu would do a fine job.

210. Disinvited - August 7, 2013

#193. boborci – August 7, 2013

Much as I’m tempted to respond with the old Borscht Belt rejoinder when fed a line like that, I think first, congratulations are in order in that if you are bothering to take time to ask the question, then that must be confirmation that you must have, indeed, gotten the gig?

211. Promo Boy - August 7, 2013

A good director’s job is to get a decent script out of the writers. If we’re stuck with these two hacks, lets pray they have an intelligent, creative and experienced director in charge. Chu is not the answer.

212. Jonboc - August 7, 2013

Bob, TOS was always most engaging when curiosity go the cat. A strange new world with extreme danger is what we need. And while everyone bitches about going to the well again, he’ll I’d love to see an imaginative run in with the Talosians. that could be one crazy mind f*ck! What’s real? what’s not? And just like Pikes encounter, there is plenty of room for illusion induced action. Anyway, I know you guys will spin a great tale. Just remember its all about putting our great characters in peril, while showcasing then awe and unknowns of space and the many inhabitants that don’t want to be our friend. Imagination imagination imagination. It is your best friend when going where no one has gone before, dont be afraid to get outside the box!

213. crazydaystrom - August 7, 2013

@ Mr. Bob Orci-
I have been one who has ‘irrelevantly’ outspoken about my disappointment with STID. And this has been after being outspoken about my joy and appreciation with ST09, despite it’s shortcomings. I don’t have specific story ideas immediately ask, plead, beg you to be more balanced…no, BALANCED with the presentation of the story. Someone on this board resently described STID as “110 minutes of running shooting and explosions in a 123 minute film” . That’s no doubt not an exact quote and the numbers may not be precise but that’s how the movie felt to many of us. But again, no doubt these are ‘irrelevancies’ to you. (Not to start anything but there is inherent condesention to that characterization that I hope I mis-infer and was unintentional.)

But without offering specific story ideas right now, consider presenting the story as something of a musical composition. Have that great opening sequence then start the Bolero. A slow, paced, interesting,plot and character developing buildup to a huge and impressive finale. Again I’m not being specific at all story point wise but there’s a reason Boleros are so moving, exciting and emotionally satisfying.

And originality is so greatly desired, sir. For me this does not mean absolutely stay away from any connection to past Trek but if and when you so touch on or revisit canon please be consistent with it and don’t bend and twist it to nearly an unrecognizable Trek-flavored thing.

I want a balanced, paced, thoughtful, intelligent and evocative SCIENCE FICTION Star Trek story. I’ll try offer some specific story ideas later.

Thank you

214. roy - August 7, 2013

@6, Genesque Trek went away years ago and now the action/adventure has expanded the Trek universe in ways no one could have conceived four years ago. To go back to Geneesque Trek would be walking backwards. The action/adventure is the only way to ensure a wider audience. If not Trek is finished on the big screen for years to come

215. crazydaystrom - August 7, 2013

And boborci
I forgot to mention that I AM aware of the fact that no matter how the script is written the pacing of the piece will be determined in the editing room and by those other than the writers. I know it’s a fairly complex and involved process. But i would think you MUST have more influence in those matters than writers typically do, all things considered.

216. Vultan - August 7, 2013

Isn’t it irrelevant to ask what the next movie should be about? Obviously the writers would (or should) have some vague notion of what its about at this point, or else it’s a bad business decision to hire someone who asks anyone and everyone how to do his job.

Sorry if that comes off harsh, but it’s really Orci who should be telling us what it’s about… eventually.

217. Vultan - August 7, 2013

Correction: it’s not its.

218. Ahmed - August 7, 2013

@ 214. roy – August 7, 2013

“@6, Genesque Trek went away years ago and now the action/adventure has expanded the Trek universe in ways no one could have conceived four years ago. To go back to Geneesque Trek would be walking backwards. The action/adventure is the only way to ensure a wider audience. If not Trek is finished on the big screen for years to come”

Star Trek is NOT just action/adventure, it is a science fiction show that deal with many themes of that genre.

You want only action/adventure, then you should watch Star Wars!

219. Bucky - August 7, 2013

@boborci (193)

Spock’s Brain adaptation. Just DO IT! Seriously. Why not? The 4th one in the TOS movie cycle was “the funny one” with Voyage Home. The 3rd one in the TNG movie cycle was “the funny one” (kinda, trying) with “Insurrection.” Comedic spins in Trek films are a defined thing.

So, yes, logically the only answer is to adapt “Spock’s Brain” in all it’s glory for the big screen.

Thank you kindly,
Every Trek fan Ever

220. Ciarán - August 7, 2013

@boborci

We can talk and talk about what we want the next movie to be about until we’re blue in the face, but it doesn’t mean our opinions will be listened to. As much as I loved Star Trek Into Darkness (and I really did, 8 theatrical viewings prove that), I still wish you guys had never gone near Khan. And I’m not the only one. The over-riding majority of Trek fans didn’t want to see Khan be re-done in this new universe, but were we listened to? No.

If you ask me personally what I’d like to see for the new movie, I’d ask you and Alex Kurtzman to sit down and watch Skyfall. Examine how the filmmakers took each element of what makes a great James Bond film from all aspects of the filmmaking spectrum and how they moulded that into the highest grossing Bond movie ever.

I’d ask you then to examine the core elements of Star Trek, see what made the franchise truly shine and then carefully create an intriguing story that is both thought-provoking and exciting. Give us twists, and please make them so that we DON’T see coming from the get-go. Give us a movie that is quintessentially Star Trek, but also exciting, fresh and new. I know it’s not going to be easy, but as the Skyfall guys have shown, it’s not impossible.

The next movie will undoubtedly be released in 2016 for the 50th anniversary of the franchise. I beg you guys to give us, the fans, a movie that is worthy of representing the franchise at it’s best on this historic anniversary.

221. I am not Herbert - August 7, 2013

“…writing (sic) duo of Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman are back to pen the third movie.” = (2) TURDS in my corn flakes… =(

“…Jon M. Chu, is slated to direct.” = GOOD NEWS!! =D

PLEASE get started SOON, and flush the (2) aforementioned TURDS ASAP!!!

222. Promo Boy - August 7, 2013

BobO: Nothing wrong with action, adventure, running, jumping and shooting. It is what sells tickets.But for cryin’ out loud, balance it out with some intelligence. An antagonist with a clear cut agenda, (and NOT revenge!}, and originality. It’s a big galaxy, let”s see new aliens, a new threat, a new way to kick bad guy butt, and a new way to eventually make peace. That what Good Trek is about: overcoming our differences and finding common ground. It can be done commercially— with a little imagination. You did it with Trek ’09, you can do it again. Now go ! Start writing! I want a finished script on my desk by Monday morning.

223. I am not Herbert - August 7, 2013

BobOrci: your next movie should be about japanese toys…

…now go home and have some more “purple drank”…

224. crazydaystrom - August 7, 2013

OK boborci-

1) The Vulcan situation, I feel, needs to be addressed. As important as Vulcan and Vulcans have been to Star Trek, the destruction of that planet was given short shrift, IMO.

2) Other and new races. Not just a brief taste of them but give us the flavor of that new and their cultures. Also I’d like to see beings that are TRULY alien and not just humans in makeup. Remember ‘Devil in the Dark’ with the Horta is a very popular TOS episode. And what Kirk and crew discovered about that race of beings was very interesting science fiction.

3) This isn’t about story but consider this- Several on this site have pointed out that a bigger ‘name’ star could go a long way towards filling seats in theaters. I bring this up because of ‘Inception’, a movie with a really non-standard and fairly obtuse but VERY interesting story. With that, it still managed to be a huge hit because of star power. There are some ‘big-name’ stars who are Trekkies (yes I said Trekkies not Trekkers because that was the first, and by a great many of us, the preferred designation). Many of them have expressed a real interest in being a part of the franchise. Why not?

225. Disinvited - August 7, 2013

#193. boborci – August 7, 2013

After mulling it over for a bit, I’ve come to the conclusion that it may be too soon to start asking what it should be about. With the anniversary definitely going to be a part of its marketing, you first have to decide how much of the anniversary do you want to allow to be reflected in your script. For example, Spock should be around 50yo at this point in that character’s life, do you want something like Uhura planning him a surprise 50th birthday party to be lightly running in the background as some sort of a touchstone for the anniversary of the show?

And then what of the thousands of actors who’ve done Trek in the past and probably wouldn’t mind doing some innocuous thing to help in the anniversary “celebration”? Are you going to make room for cameos? And if you do, there’s so many possible that it is difficult to see how the story’s tone could allow anything but light-hearted and fun once you open that up? And by that I mean do you really want the audience playing WHERE’S WALDO while you are trying to address something profound? And then there’s the thousands of actors that have never done a Trek and other celebrities, that are fans too to add to the number of possible cameos. And if you’ve got all these numbers of well wishers running around the sets, you likely have to abandon any hopes of maintaining absolute secrecy.

226. I am not Herbert - August 7, 2013

REBOOT!!!

JJ-VERSE IS DEAD!!!

THANK GOD ALMIGHTY!!!

WOOT!!!

227. I am not Herbert - August 7, 2013

…let these HACKS go f*ck up Star Wars… GOOD RIDDANCE!!!

228. Ahmed - August 7, 2013

Guys, we need to have a civil discussion with Bob. There is really no need for calling names or personal attacks.

If you read any of my posts, it is clear that I didn’t like STID & that I was hopping for new writers. But, since Paramount already hired Bob & Alex again, then all we can do is offer our views & hope for the the 3rd movie without restoring to insults.

229. EFFeX - August 7, 2013

Wow… I just scanned through all the comments and couldn’t believe that so many people didn’t like Star Trek ID. I loved every minute of it and I’ve been a Star Trek fan my whole life.

Yes, this new director is a poor choice, but I think the writers have done a good job. There are a couple things I’d change here and there, but they are doing their best to keep it modern, but still recognize what came before them.

Can’t wait for the next installment!

230. I am not Herbert - August 7, 2013

…I just call ‘em like i see ‘em… ;-)

(plus, they’ve MORE than earned it…)

…and I HOPE my comments help them to the door… (buh-bye, now…) ;-)

231. crazydaystrom - August 7, 2013

227. Ahmed
”Guys, we need to have a civil discussion with Bob. There is really no need for calling names or personal attacks.

If you read any of my posts, it is clear that I didn’t like STID & that I was hopping for new writers. But, since Paramount already hired Bob & Alex again, then all we can do is offer our views & hope for the the 3rd movie without restoring to insults.”
____________

I concur wholeheartedly with your EVERY word here Ahmed.

232. Barney Fife - August 7, 2013

Bob Orci,
I’d like it to be more SciFi-ish, more of a mystery. They are out on the 5 year mission now so the Earth should not be in this movie (I’m tired of Earth being in every other Trek film) Finally, I’d like a LOT more dialog between the main characters…..and make sure there are enough pauses in the action so that the audience can comprehend what is going on.

233. Basement Blogger - August 7, 2013

As much as I believe that writing of the screenplay is fundamentally important to a movie, the director also plays a pivotal part in the making of a film. For example, I just finished watching” The Long Goodbye “(1973). Made by two legendary filmmakers, director Robert Altman (MASH) and writer Leigh Brackett (The Big Sleep, The Empire Strikes Back) who did the screenplay from a Raymond Chandler novel, I had to see this movie on Netflix. John Williams also did the one song soundtrack. The one song idea was Altman’s idea.

Altman’s approach to film noir was disrespect. He can’t decide to make The Long Goodbye into a comedy or the story about a journey of a man down those dirty, mean streets. Case in point, there’s scene where Altman lets the camera linger on two dogs having sex. Funny, but what is it doing in this movie? Altman didn’t take the genre seriously. Consequently, decisions by Altman sunk “The Long Goodbye.”

So it’s important to have a director for Star Trek 3 who will take the material seriously. He must have an understanding of what is Star Trek. A director’s artistic decisions and influence over the script can make or break a film. Other examples of directors making bad decisions that made bad films are Batman & Robin, and the Green Hornet.

It’s very difficult to judge how a director may do with a movie based on her earlier works. Yeah, Jon Chu has done some movies that I’m not interested in. But he has to work. After all, James Cameron directed ‘Piranha 2″, you know the one about flying piranhas. It’s easier to predict if that director’s earlier works were serious and well received. See Christopher Nolan’s film noir, “Memento.”

I’m half serious when I suggest that Paramount get Stephen Spielberg for Star Trek 3 and the fiftieth anniversary of the franchise. He’s available. But Spielberg would probably cost too much money. Could Spielberg give Paramount a hometown or should I say sci-fi discount? Hey, I could have never dreamed of a movie featuring Charlie Sheen, scar faced elderly actor Danny Trejo as the hero, Lady Gaga and for good measure Mel Gibson. But it exists. Link. So, maybe having Spielberg direct Star Trek 3 is not so wild after all.

Link. Trailer for Machete Kills with Charlie Sheen, Lady Gaga and Mel Gibson. Hey if you can have a wild cast like that , then having Speilberg direct Star Trek 3 ain’t so crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO1WwOQowlg

234. I am not Herbert - August 7, 2013

I LOVE Star Trek!!!

…when you WILLFULLY f*ck up something that I love, civility goes out the door…

235. Tom - August 7, 2013

#193 boborci

Welcome Back BOB!!! Psyched for Round 3. Trust you will have much new and old to choose from in terms of story. However I think there should be a holographic pendant in this movie. Perhaps have that and one nice little sendoff with Spock Prime as well. Talos IV ? Lots of original ideas can be used with that scenario. Truthfully though I think a nod to Kirk Prome and Spock Prime would be sweet for the golden anniversary

236. Craiger - August 7, 2013

Just curious are we sure that’s the real Bob Orci? If Anthony was here he could verify it. We have had fakes before.

237. Craiger - August 7, 2013

Should time travel be used again? We could have the Enterprise E go to the Alternate Universe for some reason and they would find out what happened to Prime Spock.

Or what if having the Alternate Universe go back into time to the Earth/Romulan War and Kirk and crew would have to help out covertly during the War for some reason.

I kind of wouldn’t mind the Federation/Klingon war maybe if their wasn’t a full blown war shown. Maybe base it on Errand of Mercy? Maybe just show some skirmishes?

238. Ahmed - August 7, 2013

@ 234. Craiger – August 7, 2013

“Just curious are we sure that’s the real Bob Orci? If Anthony was here he could verify it. We have had fakes before.”

Since Anthony is still off the grid & nowhere to be seen, maybe Matt can verify that, I don’t know.

239. Mike C. - August 7, 2013

Original , new story about exploration and mystery. Please and thank you.

240. Mike C. - August 7, 2013

Original , new story about exploration and mystery. Please and thank you boborci.

241. The Keeper - August 7, 2013

@ 193. boborci

If your the real Bob, I could tell you what the next Star Trek should be about…but not on an open board.

242. Phil - August 7, 2013

@235. No on time travel. Or the Borg. Or visits from old timers. Or a major departure from canon (re: no frackin Klingon war, please) Enough with wanting to ‘fix’ things. Is the Star Trek universe so constipated that the only thing that will satisfy fans is to see another telling of some character or event we have seen before?

I would like to see something that brings a little cohesiveness to this universe, and establish some interesting character/event/crew that could be spun off to TV. That would make some sense.

243. Marja - August 7, 2013

233 Tom, Open on Holographic Pendant. Pull back to reveal holo pendant on CAT’s collar. Pull back to reveal black cat in someone’s arms. Pull back to reveal ISIS in the arms of GARY SEVEN [played by Harrison Ford] ….
…………agggghhhh, my cartoonish mind again!
—————————————-

@ boborci, To be Serious, here’s what I’m hoping for. STiD was described by Chris Pine as “relentless action”. OK we’ve been there now. For Trek’s 50th year, can we please have

- more of your wonderful perceptions of our beloved characters with good and sometimes snappy dialogue and LESS ACTION
- more storytelling and LESS ACTION
- NO Klingon war and NO more Khan, though the seeming through-line from ST09 – outtakes with Klingons – Klingons in STiD – and the tight framing of Khan’s face toward the end of STiD give me “a bad feeling about” any chance of my wish for none of these things coming true.
- Pon farr [wink to Zachary Quinto]
- Spock and Uhura as a solid couple [if there's any "ACTION," I'd love to see some with them, wink-wink, nudge-nudge]
- More [non-metaphorical] McCoy: I loved the scene on the Bridge with Kirk, McCoy and Spock ["Don't agree with me Spock, it makes me very uncomfortable."] THAT was great Trek writing! As was “When it became relevant….”
- I also loved the scene in Pike’s office. I don’t know how you know, but you got the correct military flavor there indeed!

You guys are great with Trek character interaction, and that’s what I want to see more of, and LESS ACTION. LESS HORRID VIOLENCE, LESS CITY DESTRUCTION, LESS EARTH, MORE SPACE. You can do it, I know you can, and let’s hope the Suits don’t make you lose a good story in over-long action sequences again.

And no “look undies!” scene. Unless it’s Spock with Uhura looking ; )

244. Phil - August 7, 2013

@232. Give it a rest, and grow up. Don’t watch it if it pisses you off that much.

245. CaptainSpock - August 7, 2013

as a fan of almost 47 years what I would love to see in the next movie BOB ..i will tell you a good origonal science fiction movie. not alot of space battles . tired of that.
please dont do a reuse of the same old chartures ,klingons,vulcans,romluns ect. .. they got old & over uesed. a Borg movie no! , time travel trek its been so over done its pitlyfull .a remake of a origonal serie move rehash heck no.when harrison said he was Khan i nearly walked out of the movie..for month the surpreme court said it was not Khan . it was i’m very dissapointed the surpreme court kept saying it was not Khan then he was.

I read a whild back an artical on another trekBBs that the Q mite make into the next movie is this true BoB, if you where to put Q in the movie the only actor who plays him John Delancie is the person i want to play him in the movie.
yes i know that this limits the field for a movie would like to see an new race ,new planet an origonal series /scifi movie that tell what star trek is about & yes the contuning devolpment of the crew that would be nice &. a sci fi flick that kicks butt.

246. Robofuzz - August 7, 2013

Be careful what you wish for! We may get a remake of “A Piece of the Action”.

247. boborci - August 7, 2013

216

Vultan

You are correct. I know what I wanna do. Thought you might wanna weigh in. No need to at all. I will go about my business/

248. Lurker - August 7, 2013

Next movie NEEDS to open with Kirk and Spock playing 3 dimensional chess with McCoy egging them on.

Then we can all go to our graves happy.

249. Chingatchkook - August 7, 2013

@ 193 boborci

Well, as long as everyone else is throwing in their 2 cents, I might as well too. I would love to see you somehow resurrect Vulcan. Now wouldn’t that be an emotional moment for Spock, not to mention the fans of Trek? Hmm… :-)

250. Ahmed - August 7, 2013

Bob, you may want to check out the works of Alastair Reynolds & Peter F. Hamilton. They are two of the best science fiction writers out there & they have a unique take on the space opera genre.

They manage to mix thought provoking ideas with adventure/quest stories that span entire galaxies.

251. The Keeper - August 7, 2013

@ 193. boborci
How about a story about a silicon based symbiotic organism that thrives on machines. Long ago these machines created for it what appear to be hovering robotic exoskeletons that are able to work joined in mass or individually.
They operate from what can only be described as a gigantic space fairing hornets nest like structures.
They come from an area deep with in the galactic core where carbon base life forms can not exist.
They are highly advanced and they number in the billions. In fact they exist in such staggering numbers that once they start moving no known force can stop them and the are heading outward from the center of the galaxy encompassing everything in their path.
They are ruthless in their advances and extract knowledge from captives by plunging a large stinger like thing into the skulls of victims to adsorb all neurological memories.
They are currently on the fringes of the Klingon and Romulan Empires pressing towards each empires home world.
Two proud warrior races falling to their knees with no where to go but the Federation, which soon also will be suffering the onslaught of this new unknown enemy.
Prime Spock is at a lost as to who or what they are since they did not exist in his timeline at any point as far as he can recall.
So the question remains is who are they, what do they want, why are they here and can they be stopped?

252. Craiger - August 7, 2013

Bob, I got it, a Star Trek / Transformers crossover movie. LOL.

253. boborci - August 7, 2013

250 that would be huge;)

where do you think the “Prime” directive came from?

254. Hugh Hoyland - August 7, 2013

I can send in my “Star Trek: Planet of Doom” screenplay. It isnt complete and it was one of my first (so it needs work) but maybe you guys can use some parts of it! :]

255. Barney Fife - August 7, 2013

#245 boborci:
Please don’t let the negatrons spoil it for the rest of us. You may not be able to win over the haters – but I think most people think positively about nuTrek. I look forward to seeing your product in 2016. And if you guys have time, how about throwing in a nuTrek TV series around 2016 or so.

256. Matt Wright - August 7, 2013

@236 yes that’s Bob, we try to keep an eye out for him and any would bes.

257. The Keeper - August 7, 2013

@255. Barney Fife
It has nothing to do with hate, but everything to do with being lied to for the last two years,.
I love the idea of nuTrek…dislike the rehashing of Khan for no reason other then they could. and what every Trekker beg and pleaded not to do , but they did it any way.

@#245 boborci:

Now, no matter what fans, non fans, new fans, or old fans say we want in the 50th anniversary film we will likely get Khan vs. the Klingons Vs. the Federation simply because that no matter what we say, your reasoning will still lead you to believe that we really truly and honestly do want .
I understand exactly how you guys think.
You say you read the post here and on StarTrek.com and a hundred other sites, all saying NO KHAN and you naturally give us Khan.
If we say bring in a new villain or use a different villain of give us something that we actually are exploring in an exciting adventurous way..you will believe you know better and that we really do want more Khan vs. the Klingons vs. the Federation and that’s what you’ll deliver since you an your writing partner already have this crumby idea stuck in your head and it’s best to go with it…and you’ll both lie throw your teeth swearing up and down that is not what we are getting as you keep everything top secret for the big let down…or as you call it, the big reveal…yawn…

258. Mal - August 7, 2013

What do I want to see Bob?

More McCoy being part of the team. Gene had them as a trio for a reason.

Less lens flares. Please?

More exploring and aliens.

Less (or please, no more) Spock and Uhura. The couple fights and sappy eyed stares from her just take me right out if the film. The shuttle spat was cringeworthy.

Uhura speaking more alien languages and helping on diplomatic missions.

Kirk and Spock 3D chess. Classic.

And for the love of god, NO Pon Farr. It’s a good storyline, but not suitable for a film. There can’t be a whole movie about it, but to have it as a subplot would just be dumb.

I admit I really didn’t love STID, but the acting was great (especially Cumberbatch) and Chris and Zach show once more that they have fantastic chemistry that could rival even Shatner and Nimoy. But I feel I’m slowing losing interest in this trek and AU. Hopefully the next one can change my mind.

259. seangh - August 7, 2013

Here’s hoping that numero threeo will be have the trek movies finally hitting their stride. I’m thinking of other franchises, specifically Mission Impossible, which really didn’t catch fire until movie three. And MI4 is arguably the best of the series. Oh – and speaking of MI4, what about Brad Bird helming the next Trek? He’s very visual, handles action well and has some great sense of pacing. :)

260. Gary Neumann - August 7, 2013

Uh “Dennis C” where does it say that the star trek movie hasn’t broke even?

thx

261. Trek in a Cafe - August 7, 2013

Trek 3 should be trippy.

262. Basement Blogger - August 7, 2013

@ 193

Bob Orci,

Just make great Star Trek. Remember what Gene Roddenberry wanted for Star Trek. He wanted a grand entertainment that had substance. I say that great Star Trek has adventure, heart and intelligence. Leonard Nimoy says the same thing. That intelligence is about ideas. Philosophical and or scientific. Don’t dumb down the next film and trust the audience. They didn’t have any problem with Avatar’s in your face environmental message or Inception’s cerebral plot line.

I like a space battle as much as the next guy. But consider that the best Star Trek had none. The City On the Edge of Forever. The Inner Light. Star Trek IV is my favorite of the films. it was entertaining in that it was funny. It had a strong environmental message. No one fired a shot from a spaceship. And who can forget the scene with Gillian, Spock and Kirk in the pick-up truck. Just dialogue. And as entertaining as any fight with batleths.

Go ahead and deal with Klingons. In the TOS, they were the main adversaries. Served as a metaphor for the Russians. And a metaphor for eventual peace and tolerance since the Klingons will someday become members of the Federation. Commander Kor would be nice. (Errand of Mercy)

P.S, Before I forget, good to hear from you. Saw this on the Huffington Post’s UFO page. Some scientists are “coming out” about their belief in UFOs.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/20/physicist-eric-davis-mufon-symposium_n_3620126.html?utm_hp_ref=ufo

263. KJTrek - August 7, 2013

If Bob and Alex and writing the next movie, I have no intention of spending money to see it on the big screen. Maybe at the cheap seats theater, but after STID, this Trekkie has lost faith in the talents of these movie makers.

264. Vultan - August 7, 2013

#247

Mr. Orci, I think it’s great to weigh in with story ideas—and great you want to read them, but I don’t see a link to register these comments with the WGA.

;-)

265. Gary Neumann - August 7, 2013

Dear bob.

Eventhough there is big talk about Khan, the Klingons and the 5 year mission…

I find quite curious what is going on in Romulus. They seem to be awfully silent ;-)

They have lost 0 ships
They know what to do with the Hobus Star…

Oh my!

266. boborci - August 7, 2013

263 kjtrek

goodbye then. don’t let the transporter beam your ass on the way out,

267. Elias Javalis - August 7, 2013

Isnt it obvious that next trek will involve Klingons? Why the glimpses and the conversation between Kirk and Marcus! I cant think of a more memorable Villain…Bob, make it a good one! :)

268. Maximus - August 7, 2013

Ok… Michael ansara has passed away. Kang the Friggin Klingon. There is no mention of it on this site at all. Instead we get more news on garbage Abrams trek universe.

No more star trek into garbage. Give me intelligent trek.

I’m done with this site.

269. Buzz Cagney - August 7, 2013

#247 So watching previous Trek and jiggling stuff around?
Come on, Bob, something new, fresh and original next time. Its time to step up and show us that you have it in you.

You have a great grasp of the characters and there was so much TOS ‘feel’ about Into Darkness (more so than any of the original movies) but you must come up with a new story.
Boldly Go!

(Be careful about asking us what we want. Ford asked its customers what it wanted in a car once and ended up making the Edsel.)

270. Disinvited - August 7, 2013

#268. Maximus – August 7, 2013

Hey, if they didn’t cover Victor Lundin’s recent passing, is it really that surprising they are dropping the ball on another Klingon actor’s passing?

271. Vultan - August 7, 2013

#269

Are you suggesting the Edsel was a bad car? Nonsense. I mean, just look at that elegant… toilet seat with a car around it.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TUgFYbi8ocY/UY0XKSt1RZI/AAAAAAAFFg0/oufBXMDe5RQ/s1600/1959%2520Edsel.jpg

272. John from Cincinnati - August 7, 2013

List of great Directors for Star Trek After Darkness not named Jon Chu:

Bryan Singer
Ridley Scott
Steven Spielberg
George Lucas
Christopher Nolan
Rupert Wyatt

…hell I’d even take M. Night Shymalan over Jon “flop” Chu

273. Charles Trotter - August 8, 2013

Jon Chu being a contender to direct was debunked almost immediately. Paramount never even contacted Chu about the project for which he was supposedly the “top contender.”

Never trust a rumor that breaks from Latino Review; they are wrong far more often than they are right.

274. I am to Smurfy - August 8, 2013

273- Darn was hoping that it would be Jon Chu, so we could see a Justin Beiber red shirt cameo.

You know you would love seeing beiber getting blasted by a phaser or sucked out of airlock while wearing a red shirt.

seriously though thank goodness it was a bad rumor.
The director of Step up 2 and 3 and Justin Bieber never say never should never again be mentioned in the same sentence as Star Trek

275. Stephan - August 8, 2013

@boborci

I am reading so much negativity on this board recently. I don’t know where it comes from. So I have to say I am honestly glad, that you two “hacks”are doing the next one. I have never seen a trek movie with so much emotion until into darkness!

276. I am to Smurfy - August 8, 2013

@ Bob orci
I hope no matter what the next film with it being the 50th anniversary and all, you find a way to work in Shatner, Takei,Koenig and Nichols in some manner.

I honestly don’t think the prime Kirk died in Generations excuse holds up any more.

277. Toonloon - August 8, 2013

@ boborci

I’m glad you’re back to respond to all thus nonsense and THANK
YOU for retaining writing duties. I personally NEED you to write a 50th anniversary movie and wouldn’t trust anyone else.

To get back to your question… How about a very dangerous inter dimensional being (like Q but without the playfulness) that the Enterprise discovers in the far reaches of space which wants destroy this dimension by folding others into it. I’ve really wanted to see Chris Hendworth on screen with Chris Pine and why not use other Trek alumnus. It goes without saying that if there was ever a time to use Shatner, then it is now.

278. AJ - August 8, 2013

In all honesty, the 50th Anniversary Special, which is what the film will be, has to ‘celebrate all things Star Trek’ or else it will simply be more of a “7th Anniversary of the Reboot” film, and no more.

Many posters on this thread have already echoed what has been said for years, with words like ‘original,’ ‘exploration,’ ‘Five Year Mission,’ ‘thoughtful,’ ‘intelligent,’ and the like. That should all be in there, but there has to be something intrinsic to those original 79 episodes which permeates it as well.

While you wouldn’t celebrate Star Trek by creating a brand new nemesis, or revisiting revenge, there a few things you can do to set some building blocks for it:

1. Write 10 ten-minute scripts for Kirk, Spock and McCoy only, sitting in a shuttle or a room with a different topic for discussion each time. Then have the actors improvise one.

2. Establish and build on the bond between Sulu and Chekov

3. Establish known areas of the Enterprise: SIckbay, The Briefing Room, Engineering, Crew quarters. Enterprise never seems to get her due, and the last two films have moved so fast, we never have the impression we’ve actually been in these rooms before, like we did with TOS and the other series.

4. Establish Kirk’s attachment to the ENT, and his concern for its crew without repeated memes such as ‘you’re willing to get all of your crew killed!’ as in the last film. Show Kirk grieving over the loss of one redshirt.

5. Give us Reilly, M’Benga, Chapel, Rand, Kyle, and all the roadies as well.

6. Think of doing a courtroom/courtmartial episode. Trek had some superb ones.

And more….

279. Jim Nightshade - August 8, 2013

Bob Orci…re irreleventcies et al….I very much believe a few mistakes were made with STID…combining with todays markets and the crowded scifi movie action field the month STID was released….First the Khantroversary….I don’t think ever a fan audience was straight out lied to before…this really made die hard fans poed…2nd the empathsis on overseas market ahead of US was good for that market bad for the us…many fans already had confirmation of what they thought was worst fears for the plot etc…3rd jjs jumping off the trek ship was badly timed…he should have kept quiet and Disney should have been responsible enough to not let wars news upstage treks release….this also hurt trek…even a month after trek opening would have been better for news like this…I usually love Disney but thought it was rude and damaging the way jjs departure was announced….lastly the crowded field for this month…next time release trek earlier by at least several weeks…let trek be the first summer movie out the gate with several weeks before the next one….

What do we want …50th anniv. of trek promises a lot….but it cant be just a fan fest…the many almost too many fan moments in stid have been criticized by fans and didn’t matter at all to non fans…I agree NO KLINGONS…you have to start the real five year mission and go boldly into a NEW STORY….personally I would love a mix of TMP intelligence and awesome EFX and epic grand scope with a more heavy character driven story exploring and learning and helping some other planet or species to achieve or save and lift them up using spock like logic….Bones like heart and emotion and kirks positive Idealism blending the heart and logic into Kirks Trademark Positive uplifting of MAN and Alien Planet or species alike…maybe a species perceived as a threat at first that is because of fear or misunderstandings based on superficial reasons like what they may look like or act different from us….that tng classic darmak episode was great because picard had to use his comprehension of a confusing language to gain trust and perception on the other race….who thought differently than we did….throw in some action of course….and humor and the stuff you guys do so well to make it appeal to movie goeers and fans especially for the 50th…draw more fans in….if you do it for the fans the non fans wont understand and be confused and wont be drawn in…..it wont be easy for you guys…..best of luck!! and keep us informed!
Directing….jj probably cant….hope he produces….Im not a big cho fan…irritated that GI JOE basically did better than trek with no reason for it to do so….kinda like transformers…ohwell….I luv the Spielberg idea….he hasn’t don’t scifi in a while….then again….the last indy movie not so great….whoever directs the storyline and plot and script have to be smart and fun…and most of all original….I find it tough that stid got such good reviews generally and a great tomatoes score yet tons of new movie goers did not rush to see it….why did we lost the younger ones that liked Star Trek 09?? Maybe mostly too many big movies they all decided to see Iron Man? And Superman maybe? Myself..I loved stid…the 3d Imax was incredible….Cumberbatch was too….like other fans I thought a few moments were awkward but I kinda felt like well fate and history say that same things happen in alternated universes but not in the same way….so Spock could yell Khan….and Kirk could be the one sacrificing himself and those two learned to love each other and to understand their friendship thanks to these circumstances….Best of Luck Bob….don’t let all these complaining fans get you down too much….Nothing will ever be perfect for some fans….its almost like some don’t want Trek to be POPULAR or DO well…don’t they understand if its not popular it will not continue??? Thanks to Bad Robot and you guys for doing what you can for our franchise….

280. Optimistic Doodle - August 8, 2013

IMHO, a 50th Anniversary ought to be memorable beyond borders. Something REALLY AWESOME (for every fan out there). It requires much more than yet again launching DVD copies and making 1 sequel to the Star Trek Into Darkness movie, let alone talking about a director ;-)

Star Trek began on _television_. So, 50 years later…

It’s a unique opportunity.

281. Jim Nightshade - August 8, 2013

thinkin bout pon farr with uhuru in the mix….hahhah….that could be wild but not for a whole movie…..shes got spunk…i hate spunk…then again wouldnt a subplot like that be more interesting to women non trekkies n guys always like a cat fight hehe

282. Enterprise Was Not A Bad Series At All - August 8, 2013

I think people gripe about Star Trek, no matter if it was 1966 or 2013. There will always be complaints. But people’s tastes change as they get older. I appreciate The Motion Picture now at age 44 than when I saw it in the theater as a kid. By the same token, Into Darkness was like being on a roller coaster for 2 hours- very thrilling. And I can’t see the next movie being a complete 360 from that. Yes, a good story is a must, but I don’t want part 3 to be an authentic, but sleepy movie. Not after that Spectacle that was part 2. My favorite scenes from Deep Space 9, for example, were not based on classic science fiction story-writing elements; it was the hundred-ship Dominion-War space battles! I like the thought of a more cerebral, exploratory plot for the sequel..but I would really miss the adrenaline rush I had for 2 straight hours that first time I saw Into Darkness.

283. Trek in a Cafe - August 8, 2013

hi Bob,

Can I push trippy?

The great part of the reboot of Battlestar was that there were no strange worlds. How strange is an algae planet? That worked for them. But we need something…. weirder, cooler, and more experiential for our characters.

Build on STID. You have the power to create STRANGE NEW WORLDS. REALLY STRANGE ONES. And you have the possibility of going to the best scientists in the world and asking about what they think is out there, and then you can flip that on it’s head in some insane narrative and put our characters in it.

284. Phil123 - August 8, 2013

Loved Star Trek 2009, but into Darkness disappointed me. Particularly the rehashing of Kahn, and the whole second half of whizz bamm wallops.

Too many plot holes and Wrath of Kahn rips. Some new writers coming in to help could only be a good thing I think.

285. Captain_Conrad - August 8, 2013

Joss Whedon

286. Jai - August 8, 2013

Bob Orci, re: #193:

“ok. enough irrelevancies. what should the next movie be about?”

Your reply to Vultan (#247) shows you already have a pretty solid idea about the main storyline ;) So, I guess further suggestions from the rest of us may be moot, apart from peripheral/secondary stuff that could be added to the main story. I’m also assuming you’ve read my own suggestions posted on Trekmovie in the weeks after STID, although those ideas depended on whether “Khan” would resurface in ST3.

Many people here have some very good ideas about broader themes — what *should* and *should not* be in the movie — so hopefully you can do some thinking about those.

Here’s my own 5 cents:

Read Iain M. Banks’ “Culture” sci-fi novels. They deal with a lot of really big galaxy-spanning philosophical and political issues, but with a nice human touch. They also have some seriously mind-blowing ideas about what a post-scarcity, scientifically-advanced spacefaring civilisation would actually be like — a lot of it goes far beyond Star Trek, even though there are some obvious similarities between the Culture and the Federation. The best books to start with — at least those with themes most relevant to Star Trek — are “Consider Phlebas”, “Look to Windward”, “Use of Weapons”, and the more hard sci-fi “Excession”.

You should also get a box set of “Game of Thrones” and watch all 3 seasons so far. Star Trek 3 doesn’t need to be as dark or explicit as that, and neither should it be…but GoT is a fantastic example of a very intelligent, grown up, balanced, well paced, psychologically realistic and beautifully picturised drama with a nuanced, philosophical and complex storyline. The show’s creators also have a perfect understanding of when the “less is more” approach is most appropriate and conversely when to go all-out, whether it’s action, dialogue, power politics, sudden plot twists, gritty brutality or heartbreaking poignancy.

There are obviously going to be some differences between an ongoing “multi story arc” one-hour-per-episode television drama and a 2 or 2 1/2 hour theatrical movie, but there are still a lot of correct film-making lessons to draw on. Many aspects of Game of Thrones are quite similar to the superb director’s cut extended DVD version of “Kingdom of Heaven” (I think they even have the same cinematographer), and individual GoT episodes are deliberately “cinematic” in style anyway. So you should be able to translate those positive traits to the sci-fi genre too.

Which director for Star Trek 3? Ideally Christopher Nolan if possible, but Rupert Wyatt would actually be an inspired choice too. In fact the more I think about it, the more I realise Wyatt would be the perfect alternative to Nolan. Thinking out of the box, Game of Thrones’ David Benioff and D. B. Weiss would also be great, if they’re interested in expanding into big screen sci-fi (George RR Martin even wrote some sci-fi early in his career).

287. ironhyde - August 8, 2013

#204 Brandon

YES!! This is what should have been done and needs to be done and yes, omg, what an intellectual thriller it could be. This intrigues me.

288. V. - August 8, 2013

Here’s my Trek background:

-grew up watching TNG on TV

- I actually love Insurrection because of the wonderful character moments that the TNG crew have among themselves

- On Final Frontier I see it as a poorly implemented, but interesting idea. Kirk’s “What does God need with a Starship?” is one of my favorite lines in all of Star Trek. And Bones’ dealing with his father’s death is another great Star Trek scene.

- So, even in the two movies considered to be the worst of all (V and IX) I still find moments that I truly love.

- The Motion Picture could have been one of the all time great science fiction movies had they developed the script further. But some of the writing choices, some of the design choices, the weird chemistry between the characters, they all keep it from reaching that height. Yet, I appreciate it for tackling an intelligent story that doesn’t use violence as a crutch and which does have something to say.

- My favorite Trek is DS9 – it was the best made, best directed, best written, had the best acting and it was mature, it was intelligent and it was fun and exciting. I love episodes of TNG, episodes of TOS, some episodes of Voyager and Enterprise (seasons 3 and 4 are actually good), but the best series OVERALL for me is DS9. For me, it is one of the best TV shows ever made, not just Trek shows, but TV in general.

- I liked Star Trek 2009 a lot, even if I still had some things about it that I thought were poorly handled. But it was a really good, fun movie that I thought did justice to Star Trek. Went home after I saw it and watch Wrath of Khan and the two movies go almost hand in hand. It was an almost perfect origins story for TOS and I thought that with the origins story out of the way, the creative powers would choose to tell some new, fresh stories with the TOS characters.

- I loved Fringe, I love Person of Interest, I have fun watching Hawaii Five-O, I think Mission Impossible 3 is a very well handled action movie so I don’t have a bias against Orci, Kurtzman or Abrams. In fact I am a fan of most of their work. So the below comments are my honest feelings on Into Darkness.

- Star Trek Into Darkness. I’ve typed my feelings on this here and there, but in short, I found it to be a lazy Star Trek movie that had nothing but an overload of action, very poor space battles, a story built upon themes recycled from previous Star Trek (and which were done MUCH better in previous Star Trek), it had entire scenes lifted from previous Trek, BUT WITH A TWIST (it’s Kirk instead of Spock!)!, Peter Weller’s inclusion was insulting (he was playing a character with similar thematic concepts as the one he played on Enterprise), Khan was poorly handled (as a hardcore fan I found this version of Khan lacking while most of the new/non-fans I talked to didn’t get his relevance) and I could keep going. I wanted to walk out of the cinema, a first for me. Out of the 12 Star Trek movies, this is the worst for me, because I found it to be redundant, lazy and had nothing but “remember this?” type of writing. Not even as a summer blockbuster did I find it good. Also, the lapses in logic in the movie are to me, embarrassing to watch. The good things about it: some character moments that really worked (the scene in Pike’s office, the dialogue between Spock and Khan towards the end (before the Mario Bros via Gears of War jumping around fight scene)), the actors all got their characters and played them very well (despite the poor story the characters were placed in) and some the camerawork and CGI was top notch (that almost 360 camera turn with Kirk landing the shuttle, the Klingons rappelling all special forces like from their shuttle, all ending with Uhura getting out of Kirk’s shuttle was damn great visually) . But unlike what I said above about Star Trek V and IX, Into Darkness didn’t have anything that I loved about it (except for the acting), no redeeming moments or qualities. I would like to forget this movie in its entirety and remove it from official Star Trek canon.

What I’d like to see in Star Trek XIII (in no particular order):

1) Locations. Star Trek is famous for using very little locations and doing most things on a set or a in a studio. Get the cast out and about.

2) More exploration – NO MORE EARTH. Stop focusing the movie on Earth or on Earth related stories. Earth should not even be in the movie.

3) Don’t re-interpret things from previous Star Trek. Into Darkness was NOTHING else than taking stuff from previous Star Trek and adding twists to it. That’s just lazy. We get it; it’s an alternate universe so things are quite different but still end in the same place, but if you repeat the same thematic ideas that have already been used countless times in Star Trek’s history you end up creating something superficial and meaningless. I can point out specific movies/episodes/scenes that had the exact same THEMES that were shown in Into Darkness.

4) Stop trying to re-create Wrath of Khan. Since WoK, Star Trek had been chasing that recipe all around the Galaxy (the villain with a personal reason for being bad who wants to destroy Earth, the only thing in his way being the Enterprise and her crew). No more stories about a big bad villain. Nemesis, ST2009 and Into Darkness had this formula and 3 movies in a row with the same concept is too much.

5) Good space battles. Into Darkness had some of the WORST space battle scenes in Star Trek history -there’s a scene with the Vengeance and Enterprise having a shootout while at warp and it looked like someone playing with toy models. Deep Space 9 had MUCH better ship vs. ship action and that was a TV show made in the 90s.

6) Give Bones, Sulu, Scotty, Chekov something real to do.

7) No more “let’s call up old Spock for help”. Just stop that. If you have a real story reason to bring back a TOS character, then go for it. If you don’t have one, don’t do a cheap as crap cameo that actually makes your major characters look incompetent.

8) The crew has to be presented like competent Starfleet people that can work well with each other. No more growing pains. Into Darkness had moments where I really felt like I was watching teenagers in space. The crew as it was in Into Darkness would not and should not have been allowed to run a ship. Loved seeing Kirk and Spock taken down a notch and reassigned to different ships with Pike back as the captain of the Enterprise – I wish that Into Darkness would have done that for the entirety of the movie. Killing Pike so quickly was a mistake, and putting Kirk and crew in charge of the NCC-1701 during the movie was a mistake. So, explore the characters in a meaningful way, but they should already be a unit on the same level they were in TOS Season 1.

9). The Enterprise is a part of the cast, it has always been and it should always be. Deep Space 9 was a part of the cast of that show. The ship/station is not a rental car for its crew, it is their home and Into Darkness treated the ship like a tool, which it isn’t. When Kirk blew his ship up in The Search for Spock it was something difficult for him to do, the Kirk from the new movies doesn’t seem to care about that ship, he could as easily have been captain of a Winnebago for all the impact it had on him.

10) Find a way to eliminate the existence of transwarp teleportation. If one man can beam himself from Earth to Quo’nos with a snap of his fingers, then why do we need ships?

11) If you REALLY want to create a link between the next movie and some previous Star Trek element, take a look at the Star Trek series that didn’t have movies based on them (Voyager, Deep Space 9 (especially), even Enterprise). Bring the Xindi back, do something with The Caretaker, do something with The Changelings (there were 100 of them sent into our quadrant long before we found out about The Dominion – but we’ve seen maybe 3 out of that 100 (Odo, the one from Chimera and the baby one that dies before becoming fully formed). There’s plenty of stuff that’s not TNG or TOS to link to.

12) Characters and story and then action. Have 1-2-3 big, HUGE action scenes, but don’t have that be the main thing in the movie. Into Darkness had too much action and it was just the hollow type of action we see in every blockbuster.

13) The war with the Klingons could be a cool idea, but not for the 50Th anniversary. Honor Roddenberry and do a story that’s not about revenge, engaging in a war or blowing things up. And DON’T do a rehash of Voyage Home. In fact, don’t rehash any of the TOS movies, don’t even try.

14) One thing that I would like to see, but it would be very unlikely is to have a story that includes the NX-01, Archer and that ship’s crew. A concept to make good on the tagline for Enterprise (Meet Kirk’s childhood hero). Write a story that fixes ENT’s final episode (Trip’s stupid death) and which links it to something that happens in Kirk’s time. The movie would start on the NX-01 with her crew getting involved in something that creates a chain of events that culminates in something happening in Kirk’s timeline. No time travel, no having ENT characters appear in Kirk’s time or vice-versa. Just 15-20 minutes of the ENT people involved in something, then Kirk and his crew dealing with the consequences of that something, then towards the end, just before the climax of the movie, go back to ENT for another quick storytelling moment then back to Kirk again for the end of the movie. Perhaps something related to the Prime Directive (how it didn’t exist during ENT and Kirk having to deal with the consequences of that) or related to the founding of the Federation.

15) Something else I’d like to see is to have another ship with a different crew show up and HELP Kirk and his crew. That ship and that crew would then be the main characters in a new Star Trek TV show. (example: The NX-02 Columbia from ENT – they help the NX-01 and Archer – what if they had created a show based on the NX-02?). DS9 and VOY proved you can have a Star Trek show that doesn’t have the Enterprise in it. And I doubt that Kirk’s Enterprise is the only ship on a 5 year mission of exploration.

16) If you really want to, you can bring the Klingons into the story. For example: The Enterprise joins up with some Klingons in the final stages of the movie. Kirk and a Klingon Captain form a bond, a mutual respect for each other – a positive message – however by the end of the movie, the Klingon High Council declares war against the Federation which saddens both Kirk and the above mentioned Klingon Captain. In the 14th Star Trek movie you could have Kirk and the Klingon Captain meet as enemies on the battlefield during the war. Which would allow you to create some good character drama/moments in that movie. Just don’t use the Klingon war as a background for the 13th movie. Another action filled movie so soon after Into Darkness would not be a good idea and it would be the wrong idea for a 50th anniversary movie. Also, I feel that the Federation – Klingon war would be much better suited for a 10 episode tv series (thing DS9’s The Siege of AR-558 but as a series – in the vein of Band of Brothers) or at least 2 movies. I don’t think you could do that story justice in just 120-150 minutes of film and encompass the entirety of the war.

AND I could go on and on and on. But the best advice I would give to the powers behind Star Trek is to read what Karl Urban said, to go back and look at the best Star Trek and learn from it and to move things forward without re-hashing/re-interpreting previous moments from Star Trek. And make it something truly special for the 50th Anniversary, something we Trek fans can be proud of.

289. V. - August 8, 2013

Interesting. I type a long reply to boborci’s request for comments/thoughts, it initially appeared on the site, but it is now gone. Seems the admin(s) didn’t like it.

290. V. - August 8, 2013

My bad, there it is again. Probably was halted for moderation. My apologies.

291. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

288. V.

Great review of Star Trek into Darkness. I wish a few others here would wake up and take of the their bar glasses when it comes to JJ’s abominations.

Yeah, I said that.

And I am still pretty pissed over the half billion wasted on Orci and company’s poor Trek musings.

Bring on some real writers with real original material!

Down with the bad robot gang. They suck.

292. Will Watch Any Trek - August 8, 2013

@288 V.

Wow, nice post, great ideas! Would love to see idea #14!

293. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

266. boborci

You write questionable Trek stories for cash and your mean to the fans.

Wonderful.

Is that all you can do with your writing skills?

294. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

On a lighter note.

Here is a better use of a bad robot….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCv9o7qteko

295. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

289. V.

I appreciate your efforts, but any contributions to a professional Trek production should be made in private.

Do you really want boborci to take credit for the next Trek from something he copied from a fan website? And this guy is supposed to know his Trek?

A better solution would be for boborci to choose a few fans from here, fly us out to hollyweird, take us out to dinner, and discuss payment for a real Star Trek story.

I could come up with a dozen, easy.

A request for comments/thoughts from boborci? Please.

296. Curious Cadet - August 8, 2013

@278. AJ,
“In all honesty, the 50th Anniversary Special, which is what the film will be, has to ‘celebrate all things Star Trek’ or else it will simply be more of a “7th Anniversary of the Reboot” film, and no more.”

Not see what you mean by that … The idea of throwing characters from TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT onto the screen in some sort of all amalgam of ‘all things Star Trek’, just sounds god awful, and equally as toxic. They didn’t do that with TUC in 1991 (granted TNG was all there was at that point), and they shouldn’t do that here.

The film should just be a solid Star Trek film, not some lavish ‘tribute’ to 50 years of the franchise. If they can find a way to squeeze in some of the TOS veterans in an organic way that might be appropriate. But to try to squeeze them in, along with TNG, et al vets, well then it becomes just as moot and confusing to audiences as Harrison hissing out his name really being “Khan”.

For all those fans who keep presenting these ideas of time travel or cross-universe travel, I can’t imagine what they are thinking. No, yes I can … They are thinking only of themselves and not what’s best for the franchise. There’s a lot of things I would like to see, but I also realize they wouldn’t be practical or relevant to others. These same fans go on about how incoherent or weak the story was for STID or ST09, but then they propose these wild concoctions where Pine and Shatner and Nimoy and Quinto, join forces somehow with Picard and Riker, Janeway and Sisko, and Admiral Archer is in it, and his beagle, and Auntie Em was there … I mean seriously!? Talk about a train wreck of a script! Would I like to see it? Sure, just like I would probably stop and gawk and stare at a train wreck. But yet I see these proposals over and over and over … Well it’s not going to happen. Ever.

297. Aurore - August 8, 2013

“…But yet I see these proposals over and over and over … Well it’s not going to happen. Ever.”
_______

“… Well it’s not going to happen. Ever.”

I said the same thing about the idea of a British Khan…

So, who knows what the future holds…

:)

298. Exverlobter - August 8, 2013

If it is going to be John Chu i actually would prefer to wait until 2017 so that JJ Abrams could be back in the directors chair.

299. Strat - August 8, 2013

@boborci

Have you ever seen the animated episode “Beyond the Farthest Star”? The derelict living ship from that episode would be visually awesome in the next movie. The whole energy entity thing is a bit silly, but having the Enterprise encounter a giant ancient derelict living ship like that in deep space would be a great way to start off the story and create a real sense of wonder and exploration.

300. Barney Fife - August 8, 2013

#292: Other Guy
Did Bob hurt your feelings or something?

301. V. - August 8, 2013

Look, I don’t hate Kurtzman, Orci nor Abrams. In fact, I quite like a lot of the stuff they have been involved in, but simply put, I don’t like Into Darkness at all and I have well thought out reasons for not liking that movie.

I don’t like Nemesis either for example, for quite similar reasons in fact. John Logan who wrote Nemesis actually wrote movies that I like, yet his script for Nemesis is too close to amateurish fan fiction. Stuart Baird is a fantastic movie editor, but his directorial effort on Nemesis was poor to say the least (then again, all his directorial efforts are quite poor, no idea why they hired him to direct (perhaps they saved money by having Baird be both director and editor).

Into Darkness is this decade’s, this version of Star Trek’s Nemesis for me – from a certain point of view. The script is pretty much amateurish fan fiction (same as Nemesis’) and the directorial effort leaves much to be desired (same as Nemesis’), yet the actors do a damn good job (same as the cast of Nemesis).

I will not insult Kurtzman, Orci nor Abrams, there’s no reason for that, but based on Into Darkness I would have serious doubts about re-hiring them for Star Trek XIII, while at the same time, going back to just after Star Trek 2009, I would have said that they should be hired for XII – quite the strange situation.

I am glad that the studio is looking at directors like Rupert Wyatt for STXIII and there are others I would like to see tackle Star Trek, but not Abrams. If Abrams would have returned, it would have been a major mistake and I do hope he doesn’t direct another Star Trek movie because while he is a decent-to-good director, he simply does not have the sensibilities for nor and understanding of what Star Trek is. He was capable of giving us a really good Mission Impossible movie with part 3 – which I still like even a bit more than part 4 (part 4 had a too weak villain) – but he’s not Star Trek material. Star Wars? Yes, he’s suited for that perfectly (sci-fi action adventure that is tongue-in-cheek, pulp-ish, heavy on adventure, light on story) and I have faith he’ll give us a good Star Wars movie.

ST2009 breathed new life into the franchise and like I’ve said, I quite like it. But Into Darkness was a step in the completely wrong direction. It felt like a movie made by a panel who had boxes to tick for marketing and what they believed to be “geek approval” reasons rather than an honest attempt at making a good movie which just happens to be Star Trek. I’ve typed my piece on Into Darkness and won’t do so again (just search for my previous post).

What Kurtzman and Orci should do would be to have the Okudas correct their script for tech mistakes or plotholes and canon continuity mistakes and have someone like Nicholas Meyer (or another writer who knows his Trek like Ira Steven Behr) do a pass on their script for character development advice. I haven’t read the script for Into Darkness, but based on what ended up being filmed, they badly need assistance. Hell, use Abrams’ connections and get Jonathan Nolan to assist with the writing – his work on Person of Interest is stellar.

What worries me is that the creative people behind this new incarnation of Star Trek seem to be more focused on the commercial side of things (the movies have to sell), thus targeting their movie to the lowest common denominator, while the best Trek movies tried to aim higher than that while still keeping an eye on commercial success.

302. startover - August 8, 2013

I have an idea, since they are about being as successful as possible and using the past to make the future how about…………………………………….Nicholas Meyer. He knows how to direct Star Trek properly.

303. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

298. Barney Fife

As a Trek fan for forty years I am just telling it like I see it.

Barney, I have a question for you.
Are you pleased with the half billion spent for two measly malnourished Star Trek movies?

I certainly am appalled and a bit ashamed to be a fan these days, so much so that I changed my screen here name a while back.

Is Star Trek so off the rails that boborci is asking fans for their ideas here?!
Is that correct? Boborci wants to copy and paste your ideas into his wallet and take credit for it? is that what happened last time? Shameful.

Boborci, I have plenty of creative ideas about Star Trek. Why don’t you email me and we can talk about a payment and credit for a real contribution.

If interested please drop me a line and here and I will send you my old email link for you to contact me. I would certainly love to help out.

304. Yanks - August 8, 2013

Wow V. Quite the well thought out post.

Thanks.

305. Red Dead Ryan - August 8, 2013

I can’t believe what I’m reading here…..”Star Trek Into Darkness” is this decade’s “Star Trek Nemesis”? Really??? STID is far better that movie.

STID is a great movie, maybe not quite as good as ’09. My main problems with STID are 1) There wasn’t much background info on how Section 31 discovered Khan. 2) Leonard Nimoy’s cameo felt forced, unlike that of his role in the first film. 3). The movie felt rushed in certain parts. I think that had to do with the writers rushing to get the script done, and the relatively quick filming of the movie because of the time spent on side projects by the guys.

Overall, though, I would recommend “Into Darkness” over “Nemesis” a hundred times out of a hundred.

“Nemesis” is the last remnant of the cheapskate days when the studio would hire tv directors/actors and editors as film directors because of cheapness.

I fear from what I have read on this thread that there are folks who want to go back to the days of “Insurrection”, “Nemesis”, and “The Final Frontier”, somehow forgetting how big a sad punchline those movies are compared to the likes of “Star Wars”, “The Dark Knight” and “Lord of The Rings” trilogies, etc.

No, I don’t want my “Star Trek” becoming known once again as an easy source for skits on “Saturday Night Live”. No sir!

306. Red Dead Ryan - August 8, 2013

I really think Other Guy needs to find himself some Other Hobby.

307. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

And you Red Dead need to post more about Trek and less about my postings.

308. Aurore - August 8, 2013

“If it is going to be John Chu i actually would prefer to wait until 2017 so that JJ Abrams could be back in the directors chair.”
______

Would Mr. Abrams be interested in being back in the director’s chair for any Star Trek movie in the future, though? That is the question, in my opinion.

I just hope Paramount makes the right choice…no matter who ends up directing.

309. Chrissmuggy - August 8, 2013

How about Niell Blomkamp to right and direct the new Star Trek ?

310. Optimistic Doodle - August 8, 2013

Not even an official tweet yet? ;-)

311. Barney Fife - August 8, 2013

300. Other Guy

I’ve been watching Trek since 9/8/1966. TOS is my favorite series followed by DS9 then TNG. I still watched Voyager and Enterprise when they aired but it was tough to watch the franchise slowly die after the failure of Insurrection, Nemesis and Enterprise. I was sure there would be no new Trek for a generation or more.

Then along came JJ & Company to rescue the franchise by bringing it up to modern standards … so that it can be a commercial success. Yes, believe it or not, Paramount won’t be making pure Star Trek movies for just us fans. They need to find the magic sweet spot to satisfy the Trekkies and normal people ;) .. they need to convert some of mainstream audience to at least casual Trek fans in order to get them to see future movies or TV shows. Build up a new generation of fans WORLDWIDE (mission accomplished with STID) – - get them hooked to the product. Then the producers can start thinking about making a new movie or series that falls into line with the type of Trek stories that you would prefer.

So my angle as a lifelong fan is based on reality – commercial success is critical. Without that then we’ll be back to a dead franchise like it was around 10 years ago with only fan fiction to keep us satisfied.

A lot of people on this board actually believe they have killer ideas for a Star Trek movie. I highly doubt they do, otherwise they would be in Hollywood right now writing scripts for the biz. I think Bob is just on here in his own free time to get general feedback for the next film.

So Other Guy, you can call the last two movies malnourished all you want – but I happen to think it’s the exact opposite. The last two movies were exactly what was needed to re-energize the franchise by bringing it back from the dead. I love the new energy. If I ever want to watch the old style technobabble/talking head Trek then I’ll pull out one of the 700+ hours of Star Trek movies or TV shows that I have on DVD or Blu Ray.

312. Nony - August 8, 2013

I appreciate the way Bob has been interacting with us here over the years, and I’m fine with him and Alex returning, as long as they remember and take to heart (and I’m sure they will) the legitimate concerns many people have voiced regarding STID. Originality, diversity, fun, respect for past Trek actors, characters, and themes, and more interactions between and respect for female characters (your audience is half female!!) — that’s what makes good Trek.

And whomever may end up being in charge, please be kind to Karl Urban and give Bones a bit of development and a plotline to work with. Bones was plugged into the plot when convenient in STID, but was not really allowed to be a fleshed-out person with emotional significance and an inner life of his own, the way Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Pike, and Harrikhan were (and even to an extent Carol and Scotty). You could just about see poor Karl’s Trekker soul slowly dying through the press tour interviews. Did he do something to offend someone? :(

313. V. - August 8, 2013

@Red Dead Ryan

For me, Nemesis is a poor movie, but STID is also a poor movie. A bit better than Nemesis? Maybe, but not by much. Again, for me, not as the law, not as the rule and I’m not stating this as fact, I am just offering an opinion based on my personal taste.

Do I want a return to Insurrection or Nemesis levels of quality? It’s an amusing question because in my eyes Kirk kicking the warp core in STID is just as stupid as Riker driving the Enterprise via joystick in Insurrection and Spock jumping around after Khan is a scene made with the same “blockbuster” and “let’s make something cool by having a character do something he never did before even if doesn’t make much sense” mentality just like Picard driving that buggy in Nemesis.

And I hope you do realize that TV writers, directors and editors are some of the best out there so you do them a HUGE disservice by insulting them. And just to clarify:

John Logan who wrote Nemesis was also responsible for writing Gladiator, Any Given Sunday before he worked on Nemesis and since Nemesis he worked on Skyfall, Rango and Hugo.

Stuart Baird is a poor director, but he is one of the best movie/film editors. His work on Superman (1978), Lethal Weapon, Casino Royale and Skyfall speaks for itself.

Also, I happen to believe that Frakes’ directorial work on First Contact and Insurrection is more than acceptable, especially on FC, but keep in mind that he wasn’t responsible for the script – he’s actually on record with having complained to the producers that the script and title for Insurrection weren’t good enough.

Nimoy’s work as a director on Star Trek 3, 4 and on 3 Men and A Baby was met with critical success. Don’t forget that A Voyage Home is still one of Star Trek’s biggest financial success and a movie that was well received even by non Star Trek fans.

If you don’t know this by now – Jonathan Nolan, brother of Cristopher Nolan and writer on the The Dark Knight Trilogy, Memento, Inception – has a pretty large portfolio of TV work. Joss Whedon, writer and director on The Avengers – a movie with plenty of success with fans, critics and at the box office is one of the most appreciated TV creative people.

And I could keep giving you examples upon examples of TV people that have worked on film and vice-versa with fantastic results.

One of Nemesis’ problems was that it was under-budgeted compared to the movies it was released against (The Lord of The Rings, Harry Potter, Spider-Man) – that’s where the “cheapskate” factor came in from the studio’s side of things. But they didn’t hold back on spending on talent – that they didn’t use that talent well or that they didn’t get the right people – that’s another topic for dicussion, but Logan and Baird aren’t talentless. Neither were previous Trek directors Jonathan Frakes and David Carson.

With David Carson’s Generations, the issue wasn’t the direction – it was the script and he’s not responsible for that. In fact, Generations, if you cut out the TOS characters part is actually very good.

And I wouldn’t recommend to anyone who hasn’t watched Star Trek to go and watch Into Darkness nor Nemesis.

Here’s what I’d tell someone looking for an entry into Star Trek to watch out of the ST movies (in recommended viewing order):

1) The Wrath of Khan
2) Star Trek 2009 (which I view as sort of origins story for where the characters end up in Wrath of Khan) and then Space Seed (origins story for Khan) Seeing Space Seed after ST09 helps as the differences between Space Seed and Wrath don’t appear to be so jarring anymore.
3) The Search for Spock
4) The Undiscovered Country
5) The recent Best of Both Worlds (remastered) Blu-Ray and then First Contact (they go hand in hand just like Space Seed + Wrath of Khan)
and if they have the time
6) Insurrection (the story has issues, but the character work is good)
7) A Voyage Home (again, story is hokey, but the characters work)

Again, this is compiled from the list of ST movies, I am not talking about the TV shows, that’s another discussion that would be too long to get into.

If you watch the below (in the order mentioned), you’ll get why I feel that the inclusion of Khan in STID was pointless. If you’re an established Trek viewer you can easily switch points 1 and 2.
1) The Wrath of Khan
2) Star Trek 2009 (which I view as sort of origins story for where the characters end up in Wrath of Khan) and then Space Seed (origins story for Khan) Seeing Space Seed after ST09 helps as the differences between Space Seed and Wrath don’t appear to be so jarring anymore.

314. jas_montreal - August 8, 2013

Boborci,

I think its a given the Klingons will be explored quite a bit in Trek 13, but I guess this a fan/geek question. Will Colonel Worf (Undiscovered Country) be shown in Trek 13 or is he even being considered by you and Alex? That would be absolutely awesome. Just random question lol. Michael Dorn !!!

315. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

302. Red Dead Ryan …I agree with that. While STID was not the best Trek movie made, it was better then 3/4 of the crap that the TNG films managed, and was not even close to the levels of crap that Insurrection and Nemesis were. Those are bad films. STID is still the highest rated blockbuster film of the year.

While I do agree that they need to make an original, non-revenge plot film for the 3rd, it won’t happen. Remember those obnoxious survey results that were leaked on various Trek news sites about what the studio was asking the foreign market views…well, they wanted more Earth, less Trekky scenes, etc…that is what the studio will demand. You’ll get another big time villain and revenge story with plenty of action all centered around Earth.

Nemesis was horrible. This film was not the best of the Trek films, but it was not on the level of horrible, pathetic and sad.

316. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

309. V. – August 8, 2013

The biggest flaw in your argument is assuming that the 2009 film is an origin story. That’s the biggest mistake that Trek fans make. IT…IS…NOT…AN…ORIGIN…STORY…TO….TOS!

It’s an origin story for a new version of these characters, characters that have nothing to do with their TOS versions. The excuse is always “alternate reality”, but it’s just easier to throw that excuse out the window and just call it what it is…a reboot. They are different characters

Shatner Kirk does not equal Pine Kirk
Quinto Spock does not equal Nimoy Spock
Cumberpatch Khan is not Montalban Khan

Etc, etc, etc. While they have basic character traits, they are not the same. While the new Trek universe has some traits of the original (Federation, Klingon Empire, the NX-01) it is not the same universe as the old Trek.

So, having this version of Spock jump around after Khan is in line with THIS version of Spock. Cannot compare his actions to those of Nimoy Spock. Different personalities, different life events, different character.

Yes, Kirk kicking the Warpcore was silly, but not as insulting as the joystick on the Enterprise, the dune buggy scene or Data as an inflation device…or the manner in which Kirk was killed.

When it comes to stuff like that, I’ll give these writers a minor pass…they have only been working with Trek since 2008ish…the other writers/producers had NO excuse for the crap they fed us in the later years with all the years of Trek under their belts.

317. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

“STID is still the highest rated blockbuster film of the year.”

What? Highest rated?

You’re telling me that Iron-Man III made less money? I am sure that Iron-Man III made much, much more, and was better reviewed, critically.

Again, take of the the Trek-bar-glasses when it comes to JJ’s overbloated misfires.

318. boborci - August 8, 2013

300 other guy

I guess u didn’t read my response to Vultan.

so let me rephrase it. instead of contacting u about anything, I will simply do what I am gonna do without anyone else’s input, happy now?

319. boborci - August 8, 2013

279. I never lied.

320. V. - August 8, 2013

@Barney Fife (post 307)

I completely agree that Star Trek films need to have a commercial aspect. But here’s the thing, STID did plenty to alienate people just as some people loved it.
1) I know plenty of Trek fans who know Trek from way back to didn’t like STID. I am one of them. As such, I have honest and plentiful doubts regarding Star Trek XIII.

2) I know non-Trek fans who liked Star Trek 2009 (XI) and who didn’t like STID at all. One example is my wife. I took her to see Star Trek 2009 despite her being 100% reluctant. She never could get into ST on TV, never. She hasn’t watched one single episode, she doesn’t care for sci-fi or fantasy in general. But she liked Star Trek 2009. We went to see STID and when the movie was over she told me that it was crap, that she hated it and that it was just another generic summer blockbuster – a type of movie she dislikes (she does like plenty of stuff on TV and movies, by the way, including stuff that other women we know would refuse to watch outright).

So, was STID a step in the right direction? With the exception of one person I know that absolutely loved the movie, the other people that I know and have seen it, none of them liked it. And out of all of them, I am the only one close to what could be called a Trekkie and I didn’t like it either.

For me, when STXIII comes around, I’ll probably see it in cinemas, as I am (as mentioned above) a Trekkie, but I already know plenty of people who won’t be bothered.

Here’s the thing, making a movie that is commercially success, yet well written AND part of a franchise with a lot of fans – that’s not impossible. Look at The Dark Knight, The Avengers, Iron Man 3, Skyfall, Mission: Impossible – Ghost Protocol, etc.

Making an intelligent movie that actually sells is also not impossible, look at Argo as a recent example.

But when movies like Grown Ups 2 end up as huge financial successes – this tells studios to not even put in the effort towards quality and just aim towards the lowest common denominator – the movie will make money and the studio is happy.

321. SpockOut - August 8, 2013

I want a Klingon war! I want it gory, very gory! Let them invade Federation space, justify Marcus’ paranoia. Mix in a little Romulan espionage. They didn’t have the effects till Deep Space Nine to pull off something of scale. With todays tech it would be epic!

Only after lots of carnage bring on the Organians.

Work in some Harry Mudd ludacracy and let the augments out of the hybernation as a last resort. Let the augments settle a world that won’t be blown away by natural disaster as a reward or not…lol

Mr. Orci,

I hope you respond to this.

322. Aurore - August 8, 2013

“…But yet I see these proposals over and over and over … Well it’s not going to happen. Ever.”
_______

From my perspective, it has already happened (in a manner of speaking), at least once, in 1994(?).

I found out about that around the year 2000 on DVD.

I, personally, do not wish to watch that kind of (Star Trek) movie ever again.

But, as I said earlier, who knows what the future holds?

323. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

I am amazed that you would take that mature responsibility to do your own job and take credit for it. You’re supposed too!

And Yes. I am happy about that.

What I am NOT happy about is that you guys wrote a story for ST09 that did not encompass a three picture story arc. Why not?

I was really expecting Star Trek to eventually return to the Prime universe, like in all the other ST incarnations. Not fixing the universe is one of the biggest disappointments that I had with your writing for Trek. that and a half dozen of the other ideas you team presented.

Seriously, No more Vulcan? How could Spock ever get it up again (or left or right, or down IDK?) with the destruction of Vulcan? How can the race proceed? But its OK for Star Trek to use time travel whenever else the world was threatened. S T U P I D and L A Z Y.

324. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

313…per Rotten Tomatoes

Star Trek Into Darkness – 87% Critic Fresh Rating – 91% Audience Rating

Iron Man 3 – 72% Critic Rating – 82% Audience Rating

Quote me anywhere in my comment in which I stated STID made more money. I know it didn’t…I stated the fact that STID is still the highest rated block buster film of the year. Truth.

and no, it was NOT better reviewed critically then STID. Quit trolling and research your facts before you make a fool of yourself, again…and just do everyone here a favor and go away.

325. boborci - August 8, 2013

310

nota givenat all

326. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

@319..yeah, and the reset button was lazy and overused. I’m glad they didn’t “bring back Vulcan”…it’s a fictional f**king planet. By blowing it up in a reboot you introduce a new element to the universe as a whole.

The only thing that was remotely lazy in the 2009 film was calling this an alternate universe. It’s either a reboot or the prime universe was erased due to time travel antics.

327. boborci - August 8, 2013

319

amazing that four years later, you still didnt understand trek 09.

thats the lazy part.

328. Spock's Bangs - August 8, 2013

#299. “tar Trek, but not Abrams. If Abrams would have returned, it would have been a major mistake and I do hope he doesn’t direct another Star Trek movie because while he is a decent-to-good director, he simply does not have the sensibilities for nor and understanding of what Star Trek is.”

Wow. Spoken by someone who has clearly spent waaaay too much time in the Bermanverse and not enough time with that little series called “Star Trek”. Some of you might remember it…it’s the series that started it all. As a reboot of Star Trek …NOT the bastardized spin-offs. JJ hit a bulls eye. He and the writers seem to understand the source material more than the many on this board that still have boners for Picard. Wrong century, wrong Trek kids. JJ has taken that stale drip of a franchise and turned it back into the Wagon Train to the stars! And in doing so has made Trek more money, more acclaim and more exciting than its ever been since Shatner was drop kicking Klingon ass over 40 years ago! More of the same please!

329. Nony - August 8, 2013

@319

I think Vulcans can ~get it up~ (or left, or right, or down!) whenever they want — and one of the recent comics dealt with pon farr and stuff and how it works without the planet around anymore. I’m sure there are lots of new baby Vulcans already by the time of STID (well, depending on the Vulcan gestation period).

And the prme universe doesn’t need to be fixed because it’s still there, the new movies just aren’t *in* it.

330. EM - August 8, 2013

321. @boborci

Why do you subject yourself to this torment?
Do you have to put up with this in real life, when people have to look you in the eye?

331. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

320. Robman007

Take off your geek-Trek-glasses. STiD SUCKED and it was because the writing was underdeveloped. I have so many reasons why it did not work.
I’d go over all of them again, but suffice it to say, again, that every scene was directed perfectly, but to a dumb conclusion. Oh, here’s an easy example…

Spock repelling to a volcano to drop a “cold fusion bomb?”
– There are some here that had to go back and watch that again to believe it was actually a “Cold-Fusion”-”BOMB”! A laughable description. Could’nt he just drop it in? Or hang it off the cable until it went off? And how does one repel from a cable while suspended from shuttle-craft that is encompassed in a highly energized anti-grav field?

Or, how about Kirk using a fire extinguisher to disable CumberKhan’s attack shuttle? The PHASER RIFLE didn’t do the job?! And where did he get that hose? From a blank wall? Like Kirk just knew there was a hose there in the first place?!

There are so many, many, more examples of how bad the writing (sorry but that’s my – and others – opinion). What I really am surprised by is that orci is looking around here for help. No. In fact, I am impressed that he is asking.

So, boborci. If you like, I will help, but I want some sort of credit for my efforts. So if you are not too put off by my words, then please let me know if I should contact you on the side.
Seems to me that you need someone critical around you instead of a bunch of easy-going yes-men.

332. V. - August 8, 2013

312. Robman007 – August 8, 2013

309. V. – August 8, 2013

The biggest flaw in your argument is assuming that the 2009 film is an origin story. That’s the biggest mistake that Trek fans make. IT…IS…NOT…AN…ORIGIN…STORY…TO….TOS!

I never said that ST09 was an origin story for TOS. If I wasn’t clear enough, I do apologize. What I meant was that ST09 works as a prequel to Wrath of Khan. Just that movie, not the entire TOS. Let me clarify on my statements a bit more:

1) Thematically they are quite linked, in my view – one dealing with beginnings (ST09), the first steps of a path and the other with endings (WoK) and the final stages of that same path.

2) There’s character moments in WoK that are connected to ST09. Pitch perfectly I might add. (Spock and Kirk reminiscing about the Kobayashi Maru test in WoK with the “taking the test” scene in ST09).

3) In WoK Kirk is an older man looking back at his life and clearly missing the days when he was young and life was simpler. In ST09 Kirk is a young man who must deal with having to accept and undertake responsibility and who has to grow up.

4) In WoK – Kirk+Spock+McCoy are friends, they know each other, they support each other, they understand each other. In ST09 we see them when they were starting out. And those scenes of them meeting each other – the young characters from ST09 are exact “younger” versions of the same characters from WoK.

5) Character elements from WoK have their beginnings described in ST09: Kirk and Spock being best friends vs. them being antagonistic all throughout ST09.

and the list goes on.

Also, as a point of personal preference, I don’t want the writers to use that excuse that these aren’t the same characters as the ones from TOS to keep retelling stories already told in TOS and the TOS movies. That’s my fear.

333. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

@323….word. Shocking sometimes, hu?

boborci…if nobody has said it yet…welcome to the universe of Star Trek..where fans are never happy with anything produced, think they can do better, nit pick your writing, yet have no idea how the buiz works or even what goes into writing a film.

Hope you are having fun and now understanding what Shatner meant in his SNL skit.

334. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

By Prime universe, I am referring to the first incarnation of Star Trek’s main timeline. Everything after Spock destroying the main timeline is the alternate timeline. OK?

The main timeline pretty much is gone if we never see it again. Don’t you think? Or, gasp, are you really saying that JJ’s Trek is not really Star Trek because the main timeline is not shown anymore?

How can you like 40 years of Trek and then want more of a Trek-universe that is not really the Trek you grew up with?

Incredible that you would destroy forty years of history just to make a film that appeals to the masses? YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME?!

Star Trek was much bigger than filling the seats for the masses.
FREAKING Star Trek (TOS) pretty much made the world you now live in today! There are countless times that I have read stories of so many scientists and engineers that said they went into science and tech to make Star Trek a reality!!!

Star Trek is much bigger than just selling a ticket to somebody.

335. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

Oh. MY MISTAKE.

Incredible that you would ABANDON forty years of history just to make a film that appeals to the masses!

336. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

Star Trek IS much bigger than just selling a ticket to somebody.

337. boborci - August 8, 2013

330 your criticism is empirically disproven by Nimoy’s presence in Trek 09.

338. Spock Not - August 8, 2013

@boborci

Thanks for asking our opinions on this…Here’s my vote

1) Avoid the typical “bad guy” plot this time around. The Supervillain thing feels like it’s getting old.
2) One of my favorite books is The Lathe of Heaven by Le Guin. A plot like this offers infinite possibilities. It’s about a man whose dreams change reality.
3) Some love interest and tragedy to go along with it all.

P.S. – I vote for Klingons in the mix…

339. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

boborci, your last post was a bit cryptic, I wish you would elaborate on your thoughts if I am in error. And sorry up front, but I refuse to read a Star Trek comic to fully enjoy ST09.

What is the problem with saying you’ve abandoned Star Trek’s history?

What you guys presented IS NOT how the Enterprise crew actually met.
It could not have been.

Kirk’s own path was dramatically changed. And I am pretty sure that the other crew members history was affected as well. So, as a matter of sci-fi-fact, what you guys showed us was not our beloved Star Trek, but some alternate timeline that was ultimately created by Spock’s mingling with the Red Matter in the first place.

340. BiggestTOSfanever - August 8, 2013

@boborci
I would first like to thank you for your contributions to Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness. I love both of those movies and I appreciate how you have revived them. I especially like the pizzazz the first one had and the moral compass the second had.
I think the next movie should still include elements from the Prime universe like the Horta, the Dr. M’Benga, or Saavik, but it should be a new story that deals with exploration; perhaps dealing with some newly discovered dilithium source or competitive exploration with the Klingons. I hope you check in on New Vulcan and on the status of the Augments even if they are not heavily addressed. I can’t wait for the sequel and keep up the good work!

341. steve - August 8, 2013

It should be something new. No Klingon war, no Romulan war, no Borg attack, etc, etc…

It should be about exploring a strange new world, seeking out new civilizations… oh wait, I think I’ve heard that somewhere before.

I think another source of inspiration should be the end of the TNG finale, where Q tells Picard that the challenge is to explore the unknown possibilities of existence. (And I quote that even though TNG is my least favorite Trek incarnation.)

So the movie can deal with an existential threat, but please don’t make it one that’s just “misunderstood” until the end when we realize it was just a peaceful playful child all along, like TNG would have.

Maybe it’s meeting an alien race that may or may not pose a threat to humanity, which is so chillingly different from any race encountered previously, that it’s almost impossible for humans to comprehend. Maybe it’s some weird physical force tearing apart the fabric of reality. Maybe the planet of the Guardian of the Edge of Forever has imploded, and all timelines in all of history are wrapping around themselves. Maybe they find themselves in an unexplored side of the galaxy, where two races so far advanced beyond humanity have been trying to wipe each other out for aeons.

Make it weird. Make it cool. Put a “Matrix” vibe into the movie somehow.

Use the movie to seriously “gel” the lead trio of Kirk, McCoy, and Spock into the awesome relationship we know they’re supposed to have. And for God’s sake, give Karl Urban the screen time he deserves!!

Don’t go down the ST:TMP route, and make it so cerebral it’s borderline boring (somehow I doubt this is a risk with the Bad Robot crew…) But feel free to throw in enough 2001-ish intelligence that the movie will be universally called “smart”.

Make sure the Enterprise finally kicks some ass if it gets into battle.

Make sure the movie has at least three jaw-dropping moments.

There are some parameters. Should be easy enough for the guys making the big bucks to come up with the details… (just kidding, no snark. If I could come up with it myself I’d be a writer, not an engineer, dammit…)

342. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

And if I might say, I will debate Red Matter, but Cold Fusion Bombs can never be allowed again.

343. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

How about you guys just post a complete story? Say, like a few pages worth, so we can actually judge your ideas.

344. Spock Not - August 8, 2013

@boborci

Thanks for asking our opinions. Sorry you’re getting grief here. It’s uncalled for IMO.

I would just like to say a plot that doesn’t revolve around the typical supervilliain. One of my favorite books is Lathe of Heaven by Le Guin. It’s about a man whose dreams change reality. I think a plot like this offers infinite possibilities. I’d also like to the Klingons worked into plot in a significant way.

345. boborci - August 8, 2013

333 other guy

Rather than abandoning history, we embraced it. Nimoy’s presence essentially makes Trek 09 a sequel to previous Treks. He has complete recollection of all prrevious Treks, indicating timeline was not erased accordingf to outdated classical physics. We took great care to preserve the idea of the universe everyone knows. And so for you to come on here and not only not get it, but then accuse me of the opposite is why I love Trek Fans!

And Spock and Kirk could’ve met the way we portrayed in both universes, so you’re wrong there, too.

And I wil post my ideas in the form of a movie for you to judge as I have the last two times. Anything else I can do for you, today?

346. steve - August 8, 2013

Sources of inspiration for the next Trek:

1. “Farscape”: for the brilliant combination of weirdness, drama, scope, romance, and humor.

2. “The Matrix”: the last truly great, perfect American film. Totally original, thought-provoking, and engrossing.

3. “Battlestar Galactica”: for the grit, drama, and awesome character development.

4. “ST: DS9″: because it proves that Trek can be dramatic and dark, and still be Trek. And yet still have romance and humor.

347. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

…Star Trek is much bigger than just selling a ticket to somebody

lets not kid ourselves….Star Trek is an entertainment franchise who’s purpose is to make money. The best way to make money is to appeal to the masses, and not just Trek fans. The old regime stopped making money. The masses were not interested and the fans stopped watching. Yes, ratings were bad. Voyager, Enterprise, Insurrection and Nemesis were all failures for Paramount. So, they hired this new team to bring Star Trek to EVERYBODY and retool it, because the old method was even driving fans away.

Hate to break it to ya, but NOBODY CARED anymore. Sad truth, but still a truth.

Remember, Trek is about making money first. The studio does not give a damn if a fan boy can’t sleep at night because Vulcan was destroyed and there are no more “prime universe” stories to be told. The next film, while hopefully original (and yes, even portions of STID were original. A large amount was not done in Trek before, unless I’m wrong and Khan helped design Starfleet weapons in the prime universe and slaughtered squads of Klingons…) will have to appeal to the masses as well. The best route is to craft an Indiana Jones style adventure flick that features action, adventure, character, discovery and something new and mysterious with a memorable villain who is not out for revenge.

Just stop with the entitlement and selective ignorance. Please.

348. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

338. boborci – August 8, 2013 …..just make the third movie a cool flick..with more Kirk/Spock/McCoy interaction…

oh, and start it off in the middle of a mission…like, the tail end of a re-imagining of “The Doomsday Machine”…..this time have the Enterprise arrive to rescue some of the Constellation’s crew, and have Decker, played by Tom Hanks, a big time Trek fan, working with Kirk to rig the Constellation to blow up, while Spock and the Enterprise keep the Doomsday Machine occupied….

within a 10 min opening you eliminate the following

1. Nod to TOS…one of the best episodes of TOS
2. Big massive ship of doom..that is black.

Problem solved, on to a new flick that takes inspiration from the first 3 Indiana Jones flicks and has Kirk and Company race against a crew of Klingons to find some Preserver/First Federation artifact. Exploration, action, excitment, with plenty of character development.

:-)

349. Phil - August 8, 2013

@326. By now, a lot of people are put off by your words. You run your mouth quite a bit, so let me help you out…it’s time to put up or shut up, You seem to think your vision is the only true Trek vision, so get your script together, your proposal, and how you can make a movie that isn’t a cartoon on a 3MM dollar budget, and mail it to:

Paramount Pictures Corp.
5555 Melrose Ave Los Angeles, CA 90038

Go ahead, man up and take care of business. You are such a super genius it should be an easy sell for you. Go ahead, we are waiting….prove you are something more then some idiot hack blogger who is compensating for small man syndrome, until then, just shut the hell up.

Christ, just go away….

350. boborci - August 8, 2013

335 Steve

articulate, pithy, rocknroll response — thanks!

351. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

Besides…watching a big screen Planet Killer in action would be awesome….and you could show an alternate version of the new Constitution class ships that is slightly different then the Enterprise and a bit more like the Original version.

I could just picture the opening scene….after all the title cards, the screen goes to infinite stars…followed by a beam of pure anti-proton slamming into a starship, which would be revealed to be the Enterprise, which in turns returns fire..cut to bridge with ship battle action, some Scotty “she can’t take much more of this..transporter is back online, but I canna guarentee she will hold”..McCoy with a “do something SPOCK” line, and Spock calling out “Enterprise to Constellation”…then a big “Kirk here”..with Kirk and Decker reparing and rigging the ship to blow, in a race against time…

352. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

341. Robman007

I like your last post and DM prologue idea. Especially Hanks as Decker.

But I still say Star Trek is bigger than just the need to sell a ticket. Star Trek needs to have all the big human experience ideas and good science fiction. The tickets will sell themselves once good word of mouth is achieved.

Star Trek into Darkness would have made Avengers money if it had been written well (or better) with a real appreciation to Trek’s core audience.

Sorry guys, but the writing was lacking and it showed. Not all your fault, JJ and others should have noticed the deficiencies.

Perhaps what Trek needs is a Congress to go along with the Supremes. ; )

353. Barney Fife - August 8, 2013

Boborci,
I got the passing of the torch by Nimoy in Trek 2009. I’m surprised that people still don’t get that. For the 50th, be careful with the distraction of having an actor or character from Trek Prime. I’d just like to focus on Trek Alternate going forward.

Other Guy,
I guess you are going to have to rely on fan fiction for your vision. The majority will continue to embrace this new vision of Star Trek. Now please let us have a respectable forum with boborci.

354. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

342. Phil

I already penned a good story here a few years back before ST09 and everyone (including boborci) liked it.

So, perhaps I will take your advice while there is still time.

355. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

oh, and after the Planet killer is destroyed..Mr Kyle (Chris Doohan’s characters) and Scotty save Kirk/Decker at the last minute by cross circuiting to B, you have a nice shot of the Enterprise flying away victorious, like in STID..title comes up…..skip to Earth, show a Klingon agent activating some Preserver artifact, it comes up with some coordinates and schematics for some unknown super artifact…he beams out, Starfleet re-calls the Enterprise, informs Kirk that Klingons found something out in this artifact they recovered on some mission out in unknown space, they believe it leads to some planet or something of importance, the Enterprise must beat the Klingons to it, and find this artifact before they can, etc, etc, etc….something like that…

356. Yanks - August 8, 2013

boborci (if it’s really you)

I think you guys are very talented. IMO where you went wrong with STID was robbing from WoK and inverting it into a meaningless out of character ending. We all knew Kirk was not going to die. We all also know that Spock would not warp to earth with Khan and bass-ass ship in tow; then go off on an un-Spock-like revenge rant to get Khan. That was frustratingly out of character for Spock.

For the first 2/3’s of the movie, I would have put STID right up there with WoK & FC (my 2 favorites).

So I have a couple recommendations for the next installment in this great franchise.

1. Please END the Spock/Uhura relationship. To allow this to continue is a slap in our characters’ face professionally. I have had no problem with it up until now, but I think STID gave ample reason to cut it off.

2. Spock needs some Kolinahr not pon-far. At least mention it early in the movie.

3. I don’t think we need Carol Marcus on Enterprise. Didn’t mind her in STID BTW.

4. Someone above mentioned Q. I find this intriguing. It could be done using John de Lancie’s voice only. He could yank this ship and crew all around with the Q-induced circumstances ending up helping Kirk & crew mature, gain confidence and be ready for their 5-year mission. Humanity isn’t on trial, Kirk & crew are. Very intriguing.

5. Save the 5-year mission for the new TV series beginning in 2016 (with this wonderful cast)

6. 1701 needs to become part of the crew. Kirk seems to have no regard for her at all.

7. I love the idea above that links NX-01’s crew in etc, but I can see that being very difficult.

8. Don’t let Michael Giacchino get away. He is incredible.

8. Oh, drop the new warp effect. The one in 2009 was just fine.

Be bold and origional! The best ST movies are origional storys with our beloved crew bringing us along for the ride. This is a wonderful universe for storytelling. Tell one!!

Story first, then everything else will fall into place.

I truely wish you guys the best of luck.

357. Colinar - August 8, 2013

Bob,

This time, make it something entirely new, something we’ve never seen before.
I absolutely loved what you did with the two previous movies, i trust you will do your best with the next installment. Stay close to the heart of Star Trek, like you have in the past, stay inspired and I’m sure it will rock.

Best wishes

358. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

346. Barney Fife

Great!

Just do not call it Star Trek.

Perhaps Star Trek Alternate?

The brand IS suffering when you have a real fan like me hatin’ on the latest.

359. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

345. Other Guy – August 8, 2013

I do agree with you on that…I would like to see Tom Hanks in a trek production. That does have casting power behind it…have him play Admiral Decker, since Commodor seems to not exist. Then show that he is in some top spot in Starfleet and gives Kirk his new brief…a new mentor for James T. Kirk, played by a big money guy who LOVES Trek..besides, he was almost Zefram Cochran in First Contact….

360. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

8. Oh, drop the new warp effect.

You mean the one inspired by Galaxy Quest!!!

Yeah. Yet another branding mistake.

361. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

Hanks was almost Zefram Cochran in First Contact.

Wow. A missed opportunity, indeed.

362. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

353…that was ILM, not Bob. I can see it was meant as a nod to TMP warp effect…nothing was wrong with the 2009, but they had to add the trail to take advange of 3D, since the film was not filmed in 3D (but visuals could always be done, etc)

363. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

354. Other Guy ….yeah, he had to bail due to filming conflicts with his directoral debut. Conflicted with First Contact’s shooting schedule.

364. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

355. Robman007

Keep posting your thoughts on Star Trek’s seldom heard factoids.
They are pretty good!

365. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

6. 1701 needs to become part of the crew. Kirk seems to have no regard for her at all.

….I’d argue that point…Kirk seems to be in love with his ship. Wreckless, yes, but very much obsessed with his vessel. He gave his life to save his ship. That counts for something….

366. Disinvited - August 8, 2013

#328. Robman007 – August 8, 2013

As Shatner didn’t write the skit, there’s only the meaning of its author, Robert Smigel (See: Triumph The Insult Comic Dog Puppet), that’s imparted which equally lampoons people that don’t get the difference twixt actors who recite lines and those that create them.

367. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

355. Robman007

A horrible choice of effects styling. It sure looked like GQ.

The FX supervisor should be reprimanded for that decision. : 0 ; )

368. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

357. Other Guy – August 8, 2013…

Thanks.

Funny how divisive films can make the fans, yet fans are not really that divisive at all when it comes to the show as a whole…makes no sense at all….

..I’ll have to find some more..here’s a fun one

Shatner and France Nuyen once again played a couple in another cult classic show a few years after TOS….

Kung Fu: Season 3. He played a really bad accented Scottsman and she played his chinese wife…haha!

369. Mikey1091 - August 8, 2013

Uhhhmm…No. You guys are dead wrong about the director. I’ve read at multiple places that Paramount wants Rupert Wyatt, and that Chu is just a feint by Paramount to get Wyatt to sign on. Thats who Paramount really wants, and to be honest, I think Wyatt would be an excellant choice.

370. Phil - August 8, 2013

@338. If I may, I do try to resist story suggestions, per se, because all it represents is one opinion, in this case, mine. I’ve mentioned before, though, that (and I’m assuming the third movie will be the last wit this cast) that whatever direction you go, that brining some cohesiveness to this universe, and this crew is a good step in the right direction. Nero described Kirk as a great man (not McCoy, Spock, etc.), and presuming he’s to be a great man in this universe as well. The last Sherlock Holmes movie established Moriarty as a force to be reckoned with, the upcoming story with Kirk needs to do the same.

As far as look and feel goes, tweaks never hurt. Comet ISON continues to be in the news, so if you guys take Enterprise out of the solar system give her a reason to chase down comet ISON. Something I always enjoyed about Babylon 5 were it’s little nods to the 20th century. It adds a little character if we see a nod to McCoy’s Georgia in his quarters.

Just write a good story, man, and give it a sense of awe and wonder for how magnificent the universe is. Suspense and intrigue is fine, but lets expand our horizons now, too. For all the mash up suggestions out there, those guys can go watch some fan films…they seem to be good at that sort of thing.

Cheers….

371. Craiger - August 8, 2013

What if they have a predestined paradox in the ST: 3 were Kirk and crew go back into time to help form the Federation? Scott Bakula and Jolene Blalock could guest star as Admiral Archer and Ambassador T’Pol. Maybe Kirk and Crew would have to help out during the Romulan War and tell Archer and T’Pol were they are from. Something like Riker and Troi did in First Contact with Zefram Cochrane. Maybe Kirk and crew help out during the Romulan War covertly? We could see Kirk and crew watching Archer give his speech at the Federation founding that was never shown in Enterprise?

372. Robman007 - August 8, 2013

Oh and here is another not so known factoid about TOS..

Robert Bloch, who wrote several episodes of TOS, made mention of a race called “The Old Ones”…this race was only mentioned in his episodes, and was not to be confused with First Federation, Preservers, Organians, etc..

This was done because he co-wrote stories with HP Lovecraft in which is now referred to as the “Cthulhu mythos”….the old ones were a big part of that mythos.

So, by mentioning “The Old Ones” in his stories, as well as some other items he mentioned firmly places Star Trek in the same universe as the “Cthulhu Mythos”…

373. NuFan - August 8, 2013

No Borg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are utterly ridiculous by today’s standards.

374. Yanks - August 8, 2013

“….I’d argue that point…Kirk seems to be in love with his ship. Wreckless, yes, but very much obsessed with his vessel. He gave his life to save his ship. That counts for something….”
———————————————————-

I’d argue that he was more concerned for his crew. The relationship with his vessel isn’t there yet.

375. Trekboi - August 8, 2013

I understand they Must have a big loud Klingon War but can you at least involve a new species, exploration or situation with an intellegent solution rather than just shoot em ups?

376. Yanks - August 8, 2013

@ 360. Other Guy – August 8, 2013
8. Oh, drop the new warp effect.

You mean the one inspired by Galaxy Quest!!!

Yeah. Yet another branding mistake.

———————————————————————
Made me think of the TNG streeeeeetch going into warp…. :-)

377. M-5 Computer - August 8, 2013

@boborci:

I think you have set up a interesting story-telling threads with STID which could continue through the next movie.

My thoughts…

1) The story arc should be over months or years, not a few days. Roll in a few 5-year mission subplots where various locations are visited. Perhaps these seemingly unrelated (and perhaps familiar) away missions are reveled to be related to each other as the movie unfolds.

2) More moments where Kirk, Spock, and McCoy debate a sticky moral choice.

3) I would love to discover that Admiral’s Marcus’ intentions (and by extension, those of Section 31) were to create a “Terran Empire” (ala the mirror universe) and that the events of STID were just one incident and the first of many attempts to over-militarize Starfleet and start an war (with Klingons, Romulans, or just about anybody).

4) Kirk’s “Khan-blood” could be unstable, and its effects temporary. McCoy must make great sacrifices to save his friend.

5) Cliffhanger ending involving the Genesis Device.

378. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

Yeah!

They should replace each and every Next Gen warp effect on the blu-rays.

Thank goodness TOS never showed the E gong into warp with some crazy effects.

379. Phil - August 8, 2013

I wasn’t kidding. Frank Oz directs. Ron Howard, if he’s available. It’ll be brilliant….

380. Jefferies Tuber - August 8, 2013

The meltdown of Trekmovie feels like it’s connected to the meltdown of consensus on STID. Let’s face it: popular opinion has turned against STID in a big way. It’s forced me to acknowledge that I think KO [or whoever gerrymandered their script] used Khan in a soon-to-be-dated, convoluted way that … may … ultimately lead to a far better version of both Khan and the augments, but is a pale comparison to what we loved in Space Seed and TWOK. Too much Earth. No exploration. Khan blood as plot panacea. And a fetid pile of Bob Orci’s Libertarian conspiracy fetish.

Granted, Starfleet insurrections are nothing new. The worm episode of TNG, eg. STID is a lot like TUC. When you rewatch TUC it’s striking. But it’s gone beyond the episodic to become part of the new DNA of Star Trek–thereby undermining ALL of the idealism and optimism of TOS.

All that said, ST09 is so magnificent… so f***ing great that they’ve [and JJ's] still got a lot of my good will on credit. The first GI JOE movie was extremely fun and exciting to watch. It has a great sense of humor and self-awareness. I have no problem with JC directing. Rupert is probably the choice that would please Trekmovie’s hard core, though. Just saying.

381. Jefferies Tuber - August 8, 2013

Unforgiven: the whoring out of Leonard Nimoy.

382. Keachick - August 8, 2013

Why are people labelling Damon Lindelof as the bad guy when it comes to writing? Just at how many people were involved in producing Star Trek Into Darkness. It seems to me that Lindelof is taking unnecessary crap from people because he is one of the few who has the guts to speak to media…

“Produced by
J.J. Abrams …. producer
Bryan Burk …. producer
Jeffrey Chernov …. executive producer
David Ellison …. executive producer
Dana Goldberg …. executive producer
Tommy Gormley …. co-producer
Tommy Harper …. co-producer
Alex Kurtzman …. producer
Damon Lindelof …. producer
Roberto Orci …. producer
Michelle Rejwan …. co-producer
Ben Rosenblatt …. co-producer
Paul Schwake …. executive producer”

Do you all mean to tell me that none of these people had any say in this movie’s storyline? Duh

383. Phil - August 8, 2013

@382. People are venting. Not to sure why, STID wasn’t a bad movie. That, and no one is minding the store right now, and there are a few hacks here that are mouthing off in overdrive.

RE: the list. Ever hear the phrase about there being to many chef’s in the kitchen?

384. trekwho - August 8, 2013

Overall I liked STID, but….

Please no more re-hashes. Remember TNG’s “The Naked Now”? Just plain awful. Make this crew stand on its own merits with its own never-seen-before adventures/villians/stories.

385. Keachick - August 8, 2013

James Kirk in this universe should never be shown to be obsessed with the Enterprise vessel as such. In TOS he was often shown to be very protective of the crew, who serve and indeed inhabit the Enterprise and by extension, the Enterprise which serves as the only safe, inhabitable place for him and the crew to be in the cold, non-survivable reaches of space itself (as opposed to some M-class planets). The ship itself, although beautiful, was and is a means to an end – nothing more. Kirk being in love with the Enterprise per se is a little bit sick/whacko. There is a word for that – objectophilia.

Unfortunately, the presence of Bob Orci, as one of the Star Trek’s writers and producers, has lead many people to think that maybe they have some influence/power over the decisions made by the businesses in charge of making the latest series of Star Trek movies. It really is not the case – (un)fortunately. All we can do is hope that the writers can come up with a story that is interesting, exciting and entertaining and that a director is found (in lieu of JJ Abrams) who will help bring to life the story and the characters in a meaningful way.

Personally I want any war with Klingons, Romulans, Borg, whoever to be something who Kirk can’t help fight, no matter how hard he tries, because he is stuck somewhere where he instead gets to meet fine people like Caitians and Menosians…Also I like the idea mentioned in another post about Kirk becoming sick because of the transfusions of “Khan’s blood” now having unforeseen and serious side-effects… this is where the Menosians and their race of healers could help…

(This segues pretty much back to the story outline I wrote almost four years ago where menlon Suranai saves Kirk’s life but this time the cause of Kirk’s near death status is perhaps a different one.)

Unfortunately, even if Bob Orci might like my ideas, he will not be the only person deciding on the direction the next story for the third movie takes…oh well…one can only hope.

386. Keachick - August 8, 2013

#383 – Yes, I have heard the phrase. It actually occurred to me when I looked at the list. That being said, it is possible that some of the people on the producers list had “specialist” responsibilities, like creating the right sets or managing the budget(s) etc.

387. Craiger - August 8, 2013

Yeh, I thought STID was just ok. Not as good as ST 2009.

388. I am not Herbert - August 8, 2013

…the toys are already in deep discount… what does that tell you? ;-)

389. I am not Herbert - August 8, 2013

Elysium will get MY Star Trek Dollars this summer! Neill Blomkamp RULES!!!

http://www.itsbetterupthere.com/site/

bad robot INDEED!!! (bloody wankers IMHO) REPENT!!!

390. Picard, Jean-Luc - August 8, 2013

Why are Paramount looking at these sub-par directors? No offence to either of them intended but they aren’t really remembered for making great movies, good movies but not great.

Why are Paramount not going after the likes of Joss Whedon or Christopher Nolan and actually allowing the director as well as Abrams to choose his own team of writers and production team.

Directors like Kenneth Branagh or Bryan Singer would be the kind of calibre I’d expect for a Star Trek movie not the director of GI:Joe or Rise of the Planet of the Apes…

All of these rumours worry me about the level of confidence Paramount have with the Star Trek brand. With no massive press release saying that there will even be a Star Trek 3, isn’t it time the mystery box was smashed open?

391. Ahmed - August 8, 2013

@ 382. Keachick – August 8, 2013

“Why are people labelling Damon Lindelof as the bad guy when it comes to writing? Just at how many people were involved in producing Star Trek Into Darkness. It seems to me that Lindelof is taking unnecessary crap from people because he is one of the few who has the guts to speak to media…”

Because of his track record of writing crappy movie scripts like he done with Prometheus & in the case of STID, Bob said in many interviews that Lindelof was the one force behind Khan in the movie.

ST09 was written by Bob & Alex, the movie was fun & fresh. When they brought Mr. Lindelof for STID, he put his marks on the script & we ended up with STID which wasn’t as fun or fresh as ST09.

Lindelof love to talk to media a lot, to complain about the current state of movies & TV shows, which is funny, considering he is one of the guys who come up with crappy scripts to begin with.

@ 383. Phil – August 8, 2013

“@382. People are venting. Not to sure why, STID wasn’t a bad movie. That, and no one is minding the store right now, and there are a few hacks here that are mouthing off in overdrive.”

A few hacks, really ? You might want to google STID & see what other sites & hacks thinking about how dumb is STID.
You have the right to like the movie & express that opinion & other people have the right to dislike or hate the movie as well.

392. Red Dead Ryan - August 8, 2013

#324.

“313…per Rotten Tomatoes

Star Trek Into Darkness – 87% Critic Fresh Rating – 91% Audience Rating

Iron Man 3 – 72% Critic Rating – 82% Audience Rating”

Yes, thank you. I still can’t believe that there are folks here downplaying the success of STID. This should put the discussion to bed for good.

CASE CLOSED!!!

393. I am not Herbert - August 8, 2013

JJ is not a sub-par derivative hack?? GET REAL… (ROFLMAO)

Joss Whedon or the like, would be taking a HUGE step backwards (not to mention betrayal) to work for these defilers of geek culture… PLEASE!!!

394. I am not Herbert - August 8, 2013

Red Dead Ryan = myopic boot-licker. “CASE CLOSED!!!” ;-)

395. Pensive's Wetness - August 8, 2013

it’s been several months since i took the familty to see STID. myself, like many here that frequent Trek Movie, agree that STID could have been produced so much better. I could see Khan being swapped for Kirk in the Reactor Core scene. I could see Marcus being the main bad guy that crashs the Vengence into SF proper.

everthing else in that movie, i agree with. Just the two pivotal moments could have been so much better. killing off Kirk, then saving him within 10 mins? Sorry Surpreme Court, your conduct failing just proves that you guys are not supremely divine after all (just makes you human, like the rest of us)…

396. Keachick - August 8, 2013

Obviously Ahmed and others did not understand my post #382. Damon Lindelof is one of many people involved in the production of Star Trek Into Darkness and Prometheus. In other words, he cannot be held solely responsible for whether certain scripts are deemed crappy or not. I would have thought that would have been blazingly obvious to anyone with any sort of intellect and critical faculties but clearly I was wrong…oh dear.

I think that Damon Lindelof may enjoy taking the mickey (the piss) with people and clearly there are a number of posters here who are more than ripe for it.

Onto things more edifying – look what I found as I searched newsprint for bum paper for my guinea pigs – no doubt some of you may have read similar before. I have the newspaper in my hot little hands and the pictures of the two actors in question look bigger than they do online…lucky me! I know – small things amuse…:) Click onto Trek’s Nemesis at side to see Benedict Cumberbatch and short article

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10880964

I am not Herbert = myopic stomp. “CASE CLOSED!!!” ;-)

397. Ahmed - August 8, 2013

@ 396. Keachick – August 8, 2013

“Obviously Ahmed and others did not understand my post #382. Damon Lindelof is one of many people involved in the production of Star Trek Into Darkness and Prometheus. In other words, he cannot be held solely responsible for whether certain scripts are deemed crappy or not. ”

Actually he should be held solely for crappy movies like “Prometheus” because he was the main writer. The problem with the script was his & his alone. As for STID, true, there were 2 other people writing the movie with him, but as I said, Bob clearly indicated in his media interviews that Lindelof was the one pushing for a Khan story & other elements in the movie. Lindelof himself said in a recent interview that he was thinking of a different ending where Uhura single-handedly stopped the Klingon fleet that was heading to Earth, that should show how the guy think.

Of course, there are many people involved in producing movies but when it come to issues with the script, look no further than the writer. Unless there was serious interference from the studio, which wasn’t the case here.

398. Aurore - August 8, 2013

“Because of his track record of writing crappy movie scripts like he done with Prometheus & in the case of STID, Bob said in many interviews that Lindelof was the one force behind Khan in the movie.”
_________

We had this conversation weeks ago.

I even said DamOn was a “convenient and (ever-smiling) willing ‘scapegoat’, once…it is just my opinion, of course.

But, I respect yours.

399. Ahmed - August 8, 2013

@398. Aurore

“We had this conversation weeks ago.”

Indeed, I was just replying to a post by Keachick about our dear friend Lindelof :)

400. Red Dead Ryan - August 8, 2013

“Prometheus” is a great movie. Flawed perhaps, but still highly entertaining.

401. Aurore - August 8, 2013

“Indeed, I was just replying to a post by Keachick about our dear friend Lindelof :)”

______

Oh, I see what you were doing.

And, once again I felt compelled to react ; you’re too harsh on DamOn.

I mean…seriously…stop it.

:))

402. Trekbilly - August 8, 2013

#400 — I agree wholeheartedly!! Looking forward to Paradise as well!

403. ironhyde - August 8, 2013

I think the next Star Trek needs to fill us with science fiction wonder again. It needs as many IDEAS as possible in it. Like a journey movie with all sorts of creatures to be discovered along the way. Except this time, creatures are Ideas.

– Things like the Dyson Sphere.. wow, how that made me wonder and imagine as a kid. Things like an oil slick that created by a civilization that had managed to extract it’s sadness, anger, jealousy, hatred into an emotional oil, and then left it, purposeless on a barren rock in space. Things like the tachyon tunnels Q’s Borg developed, to travel the universe, where ships surf on the tachyon current. That idea inspired stories in me. How about an alien that mistook the enterprise for it’s mother? Or a bunch of dim-wits that essentially kidnap and hold captive people that KNOW what they’re doing so they can make it through space before they are ready — the Samaritan Snare. Ohh Star Trek is about IDEAS!

Instead of being a journey that goes from A to B with a series of explosions along the way and everybody yelling.. let’s make it colourful and thoughtful, and the kind of stuff that inspires people to become astronauts or think outside the box, or dream.

I would love that, Mr. Orci.

404. Craiger - August 8, 2013

Bob, if Khan was Lindelof’s idea who did you want for the bad guy?

405. Trekbilly - August 8, 2013

#377 said “1) The story arc should be over months or years, not a few days. Roll in a few 5-year mission subplots where various locations are visited. Perhaps these seemingly unrelated (and perhaps familiar) away missions are reveled to be related to each other as the movie unfolds.”

I like that. I like that a LOT!! Why aren’t YOU writing these things? Seriously…that’s a great idea!!! Which means…they won’t do it in the next film…hahaha!!!

406. Ahmed - August 8, 2013

@ 400. Red Dead Ryan – August 8, 2013

““Prometheus” is a great movie. Flawed perhaps, but still highly entertaining.”

It was visually stunning, which is to be expected from Ridley Scott and Michael Fassbender was great as “David”. Other than that, the story was dumb & didn’t make any sense.

@ 401. Aurore – August 8, 2013

“And, once again I felt compelled to react ; you’re too harsh on DamOn.

I mean…seriously…stop it.
:))”

lol, I guess I’m still pissed off at the way he ended “Lost”. Even after 3 years, it is not easily to forgive the guy, specially after what he done with “Prometheus”.

I will wait & see if his upcoming projects, “The Leftovers” & “Tomorrowland” are another dumb movies with no coherent stories or an improvement & then I will stop begin harsh on him :)

407. Trekbilly - August 8, 2013

Start off the next Trek with the Enterprise in hot pursuit of an alien ship (NOT a race we already know) that has done something to one of the crew….kidnapped, brain stolen, technology stolen, whatever. They follow the ship to it’s home planet and that’s where the movie starts. Five year mission story number one. Then #300′s idea kicks in.

408. Mad Mann - August 8, 2013

382. Keachick – August 8, 2013

I think a lot of people are targeting Lindelof because it was HE that pushed the character of Khan into the story. Orci already stated that he was against Khan at first, but mighty Lindelof has more sway with JJ and the brass than lowly Orci so Lindelof had his way. Look at how he left off with Lost? He basically said “eff it” and just stopped it cold. Worst finale of all time. It’s like Lindelof has some kind of fetish where he likes to piss off fans.

409. Mad Mann - August 8, 2013

The next Star Trek should be something unexpected, but so much that it would alienate fans, especially new fans that came on board the two new movies.

410. I am not Herbert - August 8, 2013

Prometheus was a HUGE disappointment… =(

…guess you twits just get off on eye candy… =(

(I KNOW Rose does…) ;-)

411. Keachick - August 8, 2013

#408 – Wow, who knew that one man, Damon Lindelof, could wield that much power? Think about it, people and stop being ridiculous. Neither Bob Orci on his own or Damon Lindelof on his own could have that much say over whether John Harrison got to call himself Khan.

Note that John Harrison NEVER called himself Khan Noonien Singh. Only prime Spock said the name Khan Noonien Singh and he was referring to the man he knew from the prime universe.

I am not sure why something or someone attractive or beautiful is referred to as “eye candy” but so be it. And yes, I, Rose, do “get off” on eye candy, whether it be a beautiful looking person or beautiful scenery like I see driving through the Waitakere Ranges, Auckland on a warm summer’s day, but that’s just me…:)

412. Jonboc - August 8, 2013

#380. “Let’s face it: popular opinion has turned against STID in a big way…”

Lol. More like the delusional fanboys need a reality check concerning the success of Into Darkness!! Wow. Oh well, go ahead and keep telling yourself over and over again how no one liked the movie and how people all over the world were pissed because of your perceived smear against Montalban and the ever sacred Trek 2…you’ll still be wrong, but I’m sure it makes you feel good. Rock on! :)

413. Ahmed - August 8, 2013

@ 411. Keachick – August 8, 2013

“#408 – Wow, who knew that one man, Damon Lindelof, could wield that much power? Think about it, people and stop being ridiculous. Neither Bob Orci on his own or Damon Lindelof on his own could have that much say over whether John Harrison got to call himself Khan.”

Check this interview with Bob:

Q. Let’s talk about Khan (Benedict Cumberbatch). Take us through why you went with Khan as the villain and, also, can you clarify why he does what he does?

ORCI: OK, I’ll do a deep dive with you. In a way, (fellow co-writer and co-producer) Damon (Lindelof) and I were the biggest debaters about this. He argued for Khan from the beginning and I argued against it. The compromise that we came to was, let us devise a story that is not reliant on any history of Star Trek.
…..

“So, once we had that, that’s when Damon came back and reared his ugly head and said, “OK, now that we have that, is there any reason why we cannot bring Star Trek history into this?” And he was right. So we ended up sort of reverse engineering it. We started with, “What’s a good movie? What’s a good villain? What’s a good motivation? We cannot rely on what’s happened before. Now that we have that, can we tailor this villain into something that relates to Star Trek history?” And that’s what we did. So, step one was “Don’t rely on Star Trek.” Then, step two was “Rely on Star Trek.””

http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-orci-opens-up-about-star-trek-into-darkness-part-1

414. Craiger - August 8, 2013

What if Cumberbatch could have been Admiral Marcus and their wouldn’t have been a Khan and no John Harrison. Maybe Marcus would have been so scared by Nero he saw a need to strengthen Starfleet and saw the Klingons as the next threat to Federation?

415. Craiger - August 8, 2013

Then that would have led into ST 3?

416. Keachick - August 8, 2013

Bob Orci – “The compromise that we came to was, let us devise a story that is not reliant on any history of Star Trek.”

And that is exactly what they did by having a white guy play a guy called John Harrison who preferred people to call him Khan, the kind of person he fantasized himself as being. And guess what, I can interpret the movie any way I want to, just like the rest of you…:)

417. Ahmed - August 8, 2013

@ 416. Keachick – August 8, 2013

“And that is exactly what they did by having a white guy play a guy called John Harrison who preferred people to call him Khan, the kind of person he fantasized himself as being. And guess what, I can interpret the movie any way I want to, just like the rest of you…:)”

So, you are suggesting that John Harrison was NOT Khan Noonien Singh ?

Within the reality of STID storyline that is not possible, because that guy happen to have Khan powers. Unless by “fantasizing” being Khan, he got Khan magical powers.

“And guess what, I can interpret the movie any way I want to, just like the rest of you…:)””

Absolutely.

418. Aurore - August 8, 2013

“…I guess I’m still pissed off at the way he ended ‘Lost’. Even after 3 years, it is not easily to forgive the guy, specially after what he done with ‘Prometheus’.

_________

I must admit that I’m not really familiar with Lost, and, I haven’t watched Prometheus, my fellow fan.

“I will wait & see if his upcoming projects, ‘The Leftovers’ & Tomorrowland’ are another dumb movies with no coherent stories or an improvement & then I will stop begin harsh on him :)”

…I guess World War Z ( which I haven’t watched either ) was not to your liking, then…

A few weeks ago, you said you would wait and see if he had “kept his magic touch with ‘World War Z’ or he was ‘cured’ and managed to come up with a decent and logical script for a change.”

(I don’t remember reading your views about the movie. My apologies if you’ve already shared them.)

Some fans love being p*ssed off at Damon Lindelof, I believe.
That is one of the reasons why he’s such a perfect “scapegoat”, in my opinion….but, that is another story…

Anyway, admit it ; if The Leftovers and Tomorrowland are any good, you will miss being harsh on him.

You know it’s true.

:)

419. Keachick - August 8, 2013

#295 – “Do you really want boborci to take credit for the next Trek from something he copied from a fan website? And this guy is supposed to know his Trek?
A better solution would be for boborci to choose a few fans from here, fly us out to hollyweird, take us out to dinner, and discuss payment for a real Star Trek story.”

I guess you don’t really expect Bob Orci to do as you suggest. I wouldn’t if I was him. Since when do you have a monopoly on knowing what a “real” Star Trek story is any more than people like you can discern who a “real” Star Trek fan is?

As far as I can tell, Bob Orci has not copied or taken credit for anything he may have read on a Star Trek fan website. What has happened on this site, in the past, is that some posters, like myself, have offered him ideas and suggestions that I have said that he may use, if he wishes, in any Star Trek movie story that he may be writing. I have not seen any of mine or other people’s ideas used in such an obvious manner, except possibly? some of my beliefs/explanations used in Kirk’s speech at the end of the STID movie – re Kirk’s comments about revenge. I am more than happy.

I would very much like to see my realization of Menosia, Nulis and the planet’s people seen in the third movie in this series and be acknowledged in the “Thanks” section that appears in the credits of many movies. Bob Orci can talk to me, Keachick, via the IMDb Private Message board – no imposters!

I have just come back online and have not read all the posts yet.

420. Keachick - August 8, 2013

Whoever said that only Khan Noonien Singh had superhuman abilities? That was certainly the impression given in the episode, Space Seed, which is what both STID and TWOK in part are based on. Besides, they don’t call blood “life blood” for nothing. Our blood, even without being genetically modified, could be considered quite “magical”.

421. Keachick - August 8, 2013

Edit: meant to write “…certainly NOT the impression…”

I often tend to think the most important word and type the word that follows.

422. Li'l Shat - August 8, 2013

Damon Lindelof is a terrible, terrible writer. May his “skills” never tarnish another Star Trek script–ever.

And could they please not drag Leonard Nimoy out for another useless cameo. That was a terrible decision. His appearance in Trek ’09 was a graceful passing of the torch to this new crew and timeline. His appearance again in STID was not only needless but negates his purpose in the first movie–he goes from passing the torch to becoming a go-to crutch for our new crew.

Please, no more Damon Lindelof. Ever. Just let him write children’s shows for PBS–or maybe not. After all, children are our future.

423. Keachick - August 8, 2013

Having a short scene with prime Spock (Leonard Nimoy) explaining Khan Noonien Singh to his younger counterpart was important to the story. It provided the film’s “red herring”.

These writers are not dumb hacks. I love ‘em…LOL:)

424. Marja - August 8, 2013

258, Mal, Yes, the Spock/Uhura discussion on the “shuttle” to Kronos was cringe-worthy. It should have taken place in private, say, when they were changing clothes to go on the mission. But it had to be crammed in, sadly. I guess b/c we needed to see “action” for 45 seconds, more than a 45-second, sensibly-conducted discussion between the two.

356, Yanks, “end the S/U relationship” – okay, professionally in TODAY’s military it’s not permitted for married couples or close-to-married couples to serve in the same chain of command. Many have pointed out that 200 years hence, there will probably be changes in such regulations [in fact Roddenberry himself said this] because the ships will be away from home for such long periods of time.

I understand that you don’t like the S/U relationship, but for lots of folks, some of us fans for decades, some folk brand-new to Trek, the S/U relationship is a refreshing re-take on TOS. And sure, I’d enjoy seeing Kirk and Spock playing chess. It might be fun to have McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, Sulu and Chekov at the next table playing poker! Or team Scrabble [nah, Uhura would kick everybody's patootie with a language game].

I find Spock with bigger inner conflicts quite fascinating as a character, and this gives Quinto a chance to use his acting chops. I do NOT agree with Kohlinar for Spock. There’s a reason they never even had Spock complete it in ST TMP. It would limit the character to an emotionless caricature. Spock is not and has never been “emotionless.” Kohlinar would render him thus.

425. Other Guy - August 8, 2013

Ouch. It looks to me like the fans here are saying that STiD is a very flawed movie. And someone is to blame.

On another note. I just got back from the Wolverine. Not bad. And in no way were there and disapointments or major plotholes storywise.
EXCEPT that the major plotpoint for this movie was again MAGIC BLOOD!!!

So, what is up with the magic blood in this summer’s “blockbusters?”

1st Iron-Man, then STiD, then Man of Steel and now the Wolverine?!!!
There is something rotten in Hollyweird for all these tent-pole movies to have identical plot points.

426. Mad Mann - August 8, 2013

I’ve listened to the audio commentary of First Contact with Anthony Pascale and Damon Lindelof. In that commentary Lindelof is CONSTANTLY making fun of the movie and Star Trek in general and poor Anthony is obviously uncomfortable with him. Proof that he really does not care for Trek nor the fans.

He pushed Khan AND the stupid “homage” ST II:TWOK death scene into STID. Why? Most fans did not want it, and I think Orci knew that, but he lost.

Lindelof can write dialogue, I’ll give him that. But he is a cancer to sci-fi. Why he gets to work with Brad Bird and Ridley Scott I’ll never know.

427. Navy - August 8, 2013

>>@113. David – August 6, 2013
@ 77. Navy – August 6, 2013
..
What’s your rank BTW?

//I’ve never had the honor of serving my country, it is used in reference to my grandfathers service in World War 2.

>>@385. Keachick – August 8, 2013
James Kirk in this universe should never be shown to be obsessed with the Enterprise vessel as such. In TOS he was often shown to be very protective of the crew, who serve and indeed inhabit the Enterprise and by extension, the Enterprise which serves as the only safe, inhabitable place for him and the crew to be in the cold, non-survivable reaches of space itself (as opposed to some M-class planets). The ship itself, although beautiful, was and is a means to an end – nothing more. Kirk being in love with the Enterprise per se is a little bit sick/whacko. There is a word for that – objectophilia.

// William Shatner did an excellent job as Kirk at portraying the emotion Kirk felt towards the Enterprise, something that was missing from STID. To expand on this, there are a number of references within TOS to indicate the Kirk was in love with the Enterprise. I am very mechanically inclined and my experience with machines has led me to form an emotional attachment to some of them. Kirk cares more about the Enterprise than he does his crew, but not by much.
@Bob Orci

Science Fiction, story and character driven with limited action.

I remember something you posted here a while ago and I hope I remember it correctly.

A powerful entity visits a historically significant man to tell him of a critical mistake he made that set forth a deadly chain of events. The powerful entity takes the man to correct the mistake from a completely different perspective by helping another man fall in love with the right woman against all odds.

428. Aurore - August 8, 2013

Regarding Damon Lindelof .

For me, all three writers are ultimately, at least equally responsible for what is to be found in the movie.

Thus, I personally don’t believe he deserves all the criticism he received here, or on other sites, as far as the sequel is concerned.

Weeks ago, I asked, in jest, Whether or not he was a bully.

I said and still think that he would have to be one to be responsible for everything considered wrong in the recent Star Trek movie ( or other projects he worked on, for that matter )….

429. ironhyde - August 8, 2013

#411 – is right!!

Yes, Cumberbatch never once said his full name. And I was so confused and dismayed by “Supreme” Court’s decision to use Khan that I simply told myself Khan was a word like King used by the augments. It was a title. And Cumberbatch was simply saying he was an augment leader. That the other Noonian Singh had died or been lost. It’s really helpful technique to erase the embarrassment :P

430. Dennis C - August 8, 2013

@260

Link to THR indicating sequel and not breaking even (article via TrekWeb):

http://trekweb.com/stbbs/showThread.php?bid=FldwoPP0qETo2&tid=52004cc61ae0f&cid=52004cc61af7a&viewby=&sort=&order=#52004cc61af7a

431. ironhyde - August 8, 2013

Correction to my #428. He couldn’t have died or been lost, because the numbers were the same. Instead, maybe Noonian Sing had been less open to the initial advances of Section 31, and so a coup was devised to bring Khan John Harrison into the top spot.

I hate that new Star Trek needs ME to write it to fill in all the empty character points and plot. sigh.. Next time, only make the story as big as you can handle, JJ et co.

432. ironhyde - August 8, 2013

Now, let’s wait for the Khan comics to come out and thumb me in the rear for my effort :)

433. Keachick - August 8, 2013

#426 – That aspect of TOS Kirk and his apparently being in love with the Enterprise is what I have disliked the most. To care for an object more than a crew who live and work on such an object is anything but healthy from a psychological point of view. Indeed, I doubt that someone with that mindset would ever be allowed to captain a starship. In fact, Kirk was shown to be more in need of a crew than necessarily the ship “her”/itself and this was borne out in the TOS episode The Ultimate Computer (TOS – Season 2).

Actually, the crewmember most “in love” with the Enterprise was Chief Engineer Scotty. However, he did not have the overall concern and Duty towards the crew and others that the captain had.

One can enjoy the experience of what an object can give a person but caring about an object more than living beings (crew in this case) is just plain wrong. That aspect, sometimes seen in TOS, should not arise in this set of films.

434. I am not Herbert - August 8, 2013

i don’t know why i bother, but…

Rose: The Beauty of Nature contains Infinite Intelligence =)

Chris Pines crotch bulge does not… nor does Alice Eve’s T&A… and on, and on, and on, and on… =(

“eye candy” looks pretty, but it has no substance…

‘nuf said?

435. Keachick - August 8, 2013

#431 – It is possible that the “real” Khan Noonien Singh, the Khan who prime Spock was referring to, is still frozen in one of the cryotubes. Little explanation was given as to how John Harrison came to be let out of his tube and it seems that records about the 72 were not found or were destroyed by Marcus and/or Harrison/Khan. I think this is not last that we will hear from this Harrison/Khan. We may even hear from a man calling himself Khan Noonien Singh…but I really hope not. I never like to think of myself as the murdering sort but when I think/hear/see Khan (in relation to Star Trek), thoughts of murder swift and sure, do linger in my mind…oh dear…:(

436. Keachick - August 8, 2013

#433 – Yes indeed, I do have to wonder why you do bother.

How do you define Nature, I am not Herbert?

(As a matter of fact, I never mentioned Chris Pine crotch bulge nor Alice Eve’s *T&A. You did that.)

* Does T&A means tits and ass? I am really not sure – honestly.

437. ironhyde - August 8, 2013

#431. Agreed. I have my fingers crossed it was just a Rank/Title rather than the Noonian Singh we know. I guess we’ll get our answer with the comics… but I really doubt that much thought has been put into making things right, instead of force-feeding us a questionable decision.

438. Lou Sytsma (@OldDarth) - August 8, 2013

@boborci – August 7, 2013
ok. enough irrelevancies. what should the next movie be about?

That’s your job. What its about doesn’t concern me as much as the tone. Make it more grounded on science.

Treat the story as if it were a real world situation.

No magic blood.

No lame transwarping or any other such Treknobabble.

Tear the SF trappings away and see if if is a story will still work.

Show us what is out there with that clean board you set up in 2009.

You’ve got a universe of possibilities out there.

BOLDY GO with the crew as we knew them from the original series!

439. Lou Sytsma (@OldDarth) - August 8, 2013

Finally @boborci – surprise us!

440. Marja - August 8, 2013

432 Rose, In fact, Kirk was shown to be more in need of a crew than necessarily the ship “her”/itself and this was borne out in the TOS episode The Ultimate Computer (TOS – Season 2) …
Actually, the crewmember most “in love” with the Enterprise was Chief Engineer Scott. However, he did not have the overall concern and Duty towards the crew and others that the captain had. … One can enjoy the experience of what an object can give a person but caring about an object more than living beings (crew in this case) is just plain wrong. That aspect, sometimes seen in TOS, should not arise in this set of films.

From my POV, Kirk loves the Enterprise. He is not in love with the ship, but he loves it. It symbolizes much to him: the trust the Federation and Starfleet have put in him to be a leader of people, access to the finest technology available in order to help others outside his immediate crew, and more. It also represents Home and stability to him. You find the same kind of love in pilots and commanders of vessels. Their expertise in commanding ships is a major thing in their lives; it is their love, their vocation. Kirk sealed this love – and the love of his crew – toward the end of STiD when he went into the warp core that others might live.

I agree with you on “The Ultimate Computer” and agree that prioritizing the love of an object above the love of one’s crew might not be such a healthy thing. I think that Kirk loves people more than ships, certainly. That he can help people using his ship, he loves equally well. That his ship is one of the most beautiful things made by man in the galaxy is a benefit.

Scotty might be closer to being in love with the Enterprise, but he’d never put her needs above the crews’, either. He not only loves the ship, he truly admires everything about her, possibly more than he admires other things created by man. But his horror over the torpedos wasn’t just due to the harm they could cause the ship; he feared the deaths of his crewmates and others.

And, Rose I am not sure why something or someone attractive or beautiful is referred to as “eye candy” but so be it. And yes, I, Rose, do “get off” on eye candy, whether it be a beautiful looking person or beautiful scenery like I see driving through the Waitakere Ranges, Auckland on a warm summer’s day, but that’s just me…:)

I like looking at beautiful things and beautiful people as well. I think “I Am Not Herbert” has skewed the point by referring to crotch bulges and T&A; you and I enjoy seeing these but it does not mean we reduce someone to the way they look in underwear.

I like watching Zachary Quinto because he is not only attractive, but because the man can ACT. Really well. So can the other actors in nuTrek. That is part of what makes them so attractive, their intelligence and their ability. I would never reduce Quinto to a pair of meltingly attractive brown eyes, though I really admire these as part of a whole.

My objection to the Alice Eve LOOK UNDIES! shot was it was just that; it did nothing to accent her intelligence as an actress or her character’s, and rather cheaply underlined the fact that she is a damned fine-looking woman, which was already quite obvious. I wouldn’t have objected had the shot been from eye level and in a better scriptural context, say if she had been underwear-clad along with Bones, also changing into his shuttle suit. If her “Turn around!” had only been echoed by a grumpy Bones, “Yeah, turn around, Jim” the scene could have been funnier and still had the “sexual zap” they wanted to show between Carol Marcus and Jim Kirk. And just imagine the McCoy eye-roll at Carol saying to Jim, “You don’t even know who I’m talking about do you?”

441. Keachick - August 8, 2013

Just for the record, I see that other people are now using the same explanation for why John Harrison calls himself Khan as I did just after I had seen the movie on 9 May or thereabouts. The notion that John Harrison was using the name of another person still frozen (the alternate Khan Noonien Singh) or Khan as a title was MINE, KEACHICK, ROSE.

If I am wrong, well, I am wrong. However, if I am right, then I need to be congratulated for being the one to see through the Supreme Court ruse first.

I don’t feel like being *humble* today…

442. Keachick - August 8, 2013

#440 Marja – Thank you.

I really think that had the scene with Carol in her underwear had Dr McCoy in the same state of undress as the two were both getting changed could have worked really well. Also it would have been better if they were both shot at eye level, with the camera moving down rather than up. The camera moved up Carol/Alice’s body, rather than down. The face is what people look, or should look, at first.

Curiously, in This Means War, Chris Pine’s partially uncovered body was filmed in a similar way, from his feet up as the camera moved in closer. That scene lasted no more a second or two in length. I felt, once again, short changed, as if I was being teased. This way of filming someone in a partially undressed state seems disingenuous to me. It smacks of deceit, conceit, dishonesty.

Of course, I don’t expect anyone on this site to actually understand what I am getting at…maybe one day…

443. MJ - August 8, 2013

This idea being discussed that BC’s Khan was not “Khan” is perhaps the most moronic idea I have ever come across on this site. What a complete waste of time, and complete self-dulusional bullshit.

Enough said. This crackpot idea is so far off base that I don’t even see the need to debate this here.

444. hawaiiowa - August 8, 2013

There were too many problems with the recent movie. Para waited too long between the movies, losing the younger demographic. The writers tried to rehash an older movie, which makes no sense in a reboot. The SFX overdrew on character development; plug in 3 mains from GIJoe and still not care too much for the characters.

There should be a two year gap or 2 1/2 at the most. 4 years loses almost a 5yr demographic gap. New writers, new director, new starship (ala a JJ-verse Excelsior…a true refit of the E). One must remember that a tentpole movie needs something to sustain it in-between, which is severely lacking in the Trek franchise. Trek used to have an ambitious publishing schedule, which it lacks now…the interest level drops off easily.

For movies, there needs to be a sense of epicness, which this movie never seemed to have. It was more of a MImpossible type cops-n-robbers movie than a Trek film.

Killing Pike was a big mistake too, because he brought a level of detail to Kirk’s character by being the ‘father figure’. Now Kirk is even more constrained, and as ‘Kirk-centric’ as these movies are, will be difficult to fill in. This isn’t like the Obiwan-Luke dynamic…

NW: Journey to the West 2011 tv series

445. C Zenko - August 8, 2013

It is possible Joss Whedon and only Joss Whedon could save Star Trek. He is able to understand what the fans love, and write a good smart story. Paramount has one chance to save Star Trek, or this is the end. Neither ST 2009 or ST 2013 are stories that will endure. I would rather watch ST V, then the new ST. Give us Joss if he would do it, or just leave it and don’t do anymore.

446. MJ - August 8, 2013

Matt Wright,

With Bob Orcii’s return to posting here, I am frankly shockef that you are allowing “Other Guy” to lay into Bob with such awfully personal insults with words like “lazy” and “stupid”. I recommed that you permaban this troll.

Bob Orci,

On behalf of most of us here, I apologize for Other Guys’s posts. He is an embarassment to all great fans of Star Trek.

447. Keachick - August 8, 2013

MJ – It is not a crackpot idea at all nor does it smack of delusional. How about some politeness and consideration of other perceptions and notions?

The fact is that John Harrison considers himself to be Khan, therefore one of STID’s main enemies was Khan, so you were right all along. I recall congratulating you, quite sincerely, on your keen intuition, but it is also possible that you may not read that post of mine. I still sincerely congratulate you. MJ – You were and are right, but so might I also be right.

It could go some way to explain Harrison/Khan whiteness, something which has got so many people’s underwear in a tight tangle, but not necessarily. As I have also stated on other occasions, his whiteness could be the result of prolonged stay in cryostasis as in skin loses its original pigment, which may take quite some time to come back, if ever…just exploring possibilities.

11 year old wants her computer time so I say Auf Wiedersehen for now…:)

448. MJ - August 8, 2013

Nope

Your idea is a complete fabrication based on what you wish might be true. That is why it is not even worthy of considration.

Nothing personal.

449. MJ - August 8, 2013

And he’s white this time because they cast a different looking actor to play the imaginary role of Khan.

Ocaam’s Razor!

450. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - August 8, 2013

@424. Marja – August 8, 2013

I thought I’d pop up and say I agree with your post 100% – although I was going to post this agreement nearly 2 hours ago, but sometimes electricians and electronics don’t work well together…

Please Bob Orci et al: can we have less mind-numbing action and more character driven moments and development for the crew. I loved STID and saw it numerous times. However, I would have loved it more if I was rewatching it for the pure joy of watching it, rather than spending the first 2-3 times gleaning the character, plot and message of the movie from amongst the oversaturation of relentless action. I did enjoy the action, but there was too much of it for an old fogey like me, and it got in the way of the movie’s message.

Finally, please DON’T get rid of the Spock/Uhura relationship. It was a pleasant surprise in the 2009 movie, and adds another dimension to the characters. It doesn’t have to have a lot of drama to it. The two characters come off so far as being in as stable a relationship as you are likely to get when you consider they are from 2 different species, so the relationship just has to ‘be there’, not forming a sub-plot of romantic angst.

451. StelArian - August 8, 2013

@boborci

I don’t know what the next movie should be about. Klingons Vs. Starfleet sounds cool. For sure my kids will love it!

Nevertheless I definitely want to see at some point in the future Vulcans Borg ;)

452. AJ - August 9, 2013

How about introducing T’Pring?

Ruh Roh!

453. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - August 9, 2013

@452. AJ – August 9, 2013

Star Trek After Darkness comics already did that.

454. Jim Nightshade - August 9, 2013

hey bob orci…sorry bud i never said or meant to infer that you personally ever lied….i was talkin about the whole khantroversy when some spokespeople for stid flat out said the character was not khan….i believe an actor or two said that…didnt jj say that…i dont remember but i thought that some fans felt they had been betrayed when told it wasnt khan and it was…i never before remembered falsehoods being toold about any upcoming movies..that was my only point not to lay blame in any way….i apologize sir…..and now im irritated at more of our fans cuttin you down just because you asked for our feelings suggestions on what could or should be in next movie….many of us have always appreciated your participation here….i hope our feelings n opinions help give you a fan overview…please dont listen to or be bothered by the haters…we most fans want trek to be popular n continue and you guys n jj are out best hope…thanx bob…remember i was the guy that had the niece who hated boring old trek n loved your reboot so much she couldnt leave to use the restroom cuz she didnt want to miss anything…i also got a couple of sentences quoted in tv guide on the fringe finale…so yah i luv ya guys….

455. Captain Slow - August 9, 2013

What I want to see in the next movie are Tholians! They’re aliens that don’t look like guys in suits and could be really interesting in a movie (Enterprise reluctantly teaming up with Klingons to fight off a Tholian invasion?) Also, if Rupert Wyatt directs, he did Rise of the Planet of the Apes which had CG characters interacting with live-action ones so I’m assuming he could do it again for Star Trek.

Also, I’ll repeat what others have said, no Earth! If they’re back on Earth it won’t feel like they’re far out in space or in much danger.

On a different subject, Boborci, how are things going with getting an animated series off the ground? I’ve been working on a CG cartoon-style Kirk that if you’re interested I can show you once I get the OK from the designer.

456. Skaplinskli - August 9, 2013

425. Other Guy

“So, what is up with the magic blood in this summer’s ‘blockbusters?’”
______________________________________________________________________________

It’s Hollywoods’ solidarity over fan-backlash against George Lucas for his crappy midichlorians :D

457. Trekmovie - August 9, 2013

Can someone please explain to me why The Writers made no attempt to explane who “Khan” was?
It meant nothing to non fans- there were whole levels to the story that went right over their heads when a couple of lines of dialogue could have given him relevance!

Plus I do not know why they didn’t just wake up another augment & have the same situation but just a while meglomaniac augment not Khan- eliminating all the WTF he’s white?

458. Jai - August 9, 2013

Keachick, re: #441:

“Just for the record, I see that other people are now using the same explanation for why John Harrison calls himself Khan as I did just after I had seen the movie on 9 May or thereabouts. The notion that John Harrison was using the name of another person still frozen (the alternate Khan Noonien Singh) or Khan as a title was MINE, KEACHICK, ROSE.

If I am wrong, well, I am wrong. However, if I am right, then I need to be congratulated for being the one to see through the Supreme Court ruse first.

I don’t feel like being *humble* today…”

Technically I was the first person to suggest all that on Trekmovie. Go and check the earliest threads after STID was released internationally. I actually wrote a couple of long comments about it, even mentioning that Harrison never actually said his name was “Khan Noonien Singh” and therefore wasn’t necessarily the same guy Prime Spock was talking about. I also said this could be part of a longer multi-film story arc, with the truth revealed in Star Trek 3. Curious Cadet was one of the first people to agree my ideas were feasible, and he made some excellent detailed points of his own.

I made that suggestion because I decided to give STID’s writers the benefit of the doubt and because it was the only explanation that really made any sense in the context of the story, canon etc. I was also basing this on what (at the time) I perceived to be a couple of clues in STID’s novelisation.

Bob Orci later explained “John Harrison” really was Khan all along — the Khan from TOS and TWOK. Recent reports also said the “Supreme Court” didn’t have any clear ideas in mind about the potential storyline for Star Trek 3 (although Bob Orci’s comments upthread show he’s obviously come up with some ideas since then), which negates my “secret multi-film story arc” suggestion too. So that’s that.

Bob Orci also very clearly explained why “Khan” in STID was a white guy — It was because he didn’t want to feed nasty stereotypes about people who “are Middle Eastern or could be perceived as such” being terrorists. Nothing to do with “skin bleaching during cryostasis” or any scientifically impossible (and racially ignorant) nonsense like that.

Humility, Keachick. Never a good idea to deliberately avoid that trait. Life — or karma — usually has a way of teaching us a lesson.

459. Jai - August 9, 2013

MJ, re: #443:

“This idea being discussed that BC’s Khan was not “Khan” is perhaps the most moronic idea I have ever come across on this site. What a complete waste of time, and complete self-dulusional bullshit.”

No, perhaps the most moronic idea ever proposed on this site is the idea that North Indians — or any non-white people — who are as brown as Khan was in “Space Seed” would literally turn white during prolonged stay in cryostasis, apparently because their skin would (potentially permanently) “lose its original pigment” .

Those of us who are naturally lighter shades of brown do become a bit lighter when we’re not exposed to prolonged sunlight — during the winter, or in parts of the world with “northern European” climates — but there’s still such a thing as basic melanin levels.

I’ve read a lot of stupid things on Trekmovie. And I’ve read a lot of racially ignorant things on Trekmovie too. The idea that North Indians who are the colour Khan was in “Space Seed” would be literally bleached white if they spent prolonged periods in the dark is one of the most stupid and racially ignorant things I’ve ever read on this site.

I don’t think Keachick was being deliberately nasty, but she’s already posted this suggestion so many times I thought I should finally say something.

460. Dr C - August 9, 2013

Firstly, I’d just like to say I’m a long-time reader of this site – I visit it daily and I hope it continues for as long as there is Star Trek! Big thanks for a fantastic site and community. I was sad to hear about Michael Ansara, too – Kang was a legend in both the 23rd and 24th centuries.

Secondly, I would really love to see a new direction in Star Trek 3. I enjoyed ST09 – although I felt that Nero wasn’t a great villain; I also can’t get on board (forgive the pun) with the design of the Enterprise. But overall, it’s not a bad movie (although not my favourite).

I went to a midnight showing of STID. There were about 7 or 8 people in the theatre so it wasn’t exactly rammed – but I’d been to see ST09 at midnight so I thought I’d make it a tradition. I enjoyed the opening of the movie (despite Kirk’s casual disregard for the Prime Directive) and, as the film went on, I liked all the little references (Section 31, the phoenix model and the NX-01 etc.). But, then we got to ‘my name is KHAN’. And to be honest I was rather annoyed. I have left theatres feeling wistful (ST:VI), a little sad (ST:GEN), elated (ST:FC), with mixed feelings (ST:INS), and somewhat disappointed (ST:NEM) – but I was very annoyed at the reveal of ‘John Harrison’.

However, I resolved to treat STID as a ‘myriad universes’ story (these novels are pretty cool – they’re reimaginings of ‘what if’s’ in the Star Trek universe – there’s one where Khan won the eugenics wars…). Some of these stories feature word-for-word re-tellings of iconic Star Trek scenes. But that didn’t mitigate the sense of disappointment I had for STID. I was hoping for so much only to feel kinda let down. Yes, the characters were excellent (I loved Scotty’s role in this far more than in the last one – “gimme two seconds you mad bastard!” imho best line in the movie). However, like many people here, I felt that the story was not strong enough.

Star Trek fans are (generally) experts in their subject matter – let’s face it, we spend hours obsessing over this stuff – how many ‘fan fic’-esque stories have become episodes or novels over the years (Ron D Moore, anyone?). The way I see it, fans are in a position to criticise professional film writers if they feel the story does not hold water as the fans are the ones who invest time immersing themselves in the fictional universe.

Personally, I would like to see ‘Darmok: The Motion Picture’ – but that probably wouldn’t make a bajillion dollars worldwide. Although it would make a lifelong Trek fan very happy. We’re intelligent – we can handle a smart movie. Splosions aside, STID contained some great moments between characters. It’s a shame the overall story of the film wasn’t quite up to the task of exploiting those moments to the fullest.

I join in the chorus here to say: please, no more revenge. No more big black ship. Let’s see Kirk *really* in command. Let’s see strange new worlds (stranger than Naboo-ru). The galaxy is a big place. Let’s explore it together (as a famous Earth Starfleet captain once said).

Live long and prosper everybody.

461. Keachick - August 9, 2013

Jai – “If I am wrong, well, I am wrong” – Clearly I am wrong. Obviously I had not read your post. It is interesting that we both independently came up with a similar idea.

Please note how I wrote the word “humility” -
“I don’t feel like being *humble* today…” (post #441)

As I have stated before, nobody actually knows what the longterm effects could be on a person left frozen in cryostasis for a very long time, like 300 years. In fact we have no idea whether the person would still be in any way alive or could be successfully brought back to a fully alive state after all that time. The fact is that all the body functions are so slowed down almost to a form of entropy.

“Those of us who are naturally lighter shades of brown do become a bit lighter when we’re not exposed to prolonged sunlight — during the winter, or in parts of the world with “northern European” climates — but there’s still such a thing as basic melanin levels.”

That cannot compare with someone who is never exposed to any kind of sunlight for nearly 300 years while in cryostasis. Even people in very cold northern climates do enjoy some sunlight and it does not have to be a sunny day to be exposed to the UV light etc. Cloudy, overcast days can produce just as much UV light, especially if it is reflected off water or snow. Skiers are often advised to wear sunblock, even on cloudy days.

Other people have referred Cumberbatch/Khan as pasty white and I cannot recall myself writing that this Khan was “bleached white”. Of course, this Khan has melanin.

“The melanin in the skin is produced by melanocytes, which are found in the basal layer of the epidermis…”

Surely, it is not impossible that this process could cease to function or be upset by the prolonged absence of any light at all. In fact, it is possible that should be a person be brought out of such a stasis, they may well have lost much of their sight and hearing as well.

This cryostasis process has not been explained in Space Seed or any subsequent Star Trek film/episode. On the face of it, I think that it would not work in the longterm…

It is not racially ignorant since race is considered more of a social construct that anything else -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28human_classification%29

462. Keachick - August 9, 2013

Actually John Harrison/Khan would look pale skinned with grey hair, since levels of melanin affect hair colour as well.

463. Aurore - August 9, 2013

As far as the “‘lying’/secrecy/’misdirection’” from the powers that be ( and some members of the cast ), is concerned.

It never bothered me.

As a matter of fact, I enjoyed it since I expected to be greatly and pleasantly suprised ; I expected the sequel to be something that would have been “original and unique and different” …

On paper, according to Bryan Burk*, that is how the story looked.

I don’t consider him a liar, though.

…However, I would say that we obviously disagree on the meaning of certain words.

Such is life…

*
http://trekmovie.com/2011/12/20/star-trek-sequel-producer-talks-mad-dash-beginning-original-story/

464. crazydaystrom - August 9, 2013

OK Mr Orci-
There’ve been a number of ideas offered, some not so bad. But it would seem if this thread were a survey what’s wanted MOST is –

Less action and more character developement or a better balance of the two.

And-

Space and exploration.

There you go. Those things with interesting and intelligent science fictional ideas as a basic and solid foundation to build apon. Please.

And thank you

465. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

Not even boborci, a confessed conspiracy aficionado, will touch my last post @425.

466. Keachick - August 9, 2013

In order to get the studios to make movies that are less action, noise and violence oriented, we will need to relieve much of the populace of their cellphones, ipods or whatever they are called. The reason most of these scenes are just so damned long, horrid and borrrrring is that a lot of the time much of the audience are too busy texting and reading silly messages and don’t/can’t give their undivided attention to the movie they have just paid to see. In other words, they have not been taught to and/or simply won’t shut the f*ck up and just watch and listen!

Meanwhile people like me, who don’t have or want such devices find myself entering into a snooze mode as I try to stay focused on seeing endlessly longwinded, relentless, boring, bloody punch ups, people running around with guns and being b-awful shots most of the time, except if they are the main protagonists, cars being smashed up, ships exploding and on and on, relentlessly violent and noisy, and on and on and…

If these people did not have cellphones or any other distractions, they would also find many action movies quite monotonous, repetitive, boring and often repulsive. Who knows – they may want to see less horribleness and hear less noise and instead see and hear more interesting and fun character interaction.

What to do?

467. Jai - August 9, 2013

Keachick, re: #458:

“I cannot recall myself writing that this Khan was “bleached white”.

Here’s what you said just yesterday, in #447:

“As I have also stated on other occasions, his whiteness could be the result of prolonged stay in cryostasis as in skin loses its original pigment, which may take quite some time to come back, if ever…”

So yes, you basically said Khan was bleached white. You’ve made the same basic claim many times before.

“Of course, this Khan has melanin.”

Nowhere near as much as the Khan in Space Seed.

“Surely, it is not impossible that this process could cease to function or be upset by the prolonged absence of any light at all.”

Yes, it’s impossible. That’s not how it works. Melanin levels affecting the skin and hair colour of non-white people isn’t just a result of external light, it’s mostly a result of genetic inheritance. For those of us who are South Asian, the absence of light causes us to fade to our basal skin colour, but not beyond that. Expect for a minority of Indians/South Asians who are naturally as light-skinned as the average European and are therefore much, much lighter than Khan in Space Seed, our “default” skin colour in the absence of light isn’t white. Our default hair colour in the absence of light isn’t grey either.

This doesn’t just apply to Indians. Putting Uhura in complete darkness for a couple of hundred years wouldn’t result in her becoming as white-skinned as Cumberbatch either.

I don’t know what level of scientific education you’ve had, especially human biology, but you’re making a lot of assumptions with no basis in science. I’m going to re-use MJ’s comment and say your hypothesis about the effects of prolonged cryogenic stasis on non-white people is “a complete fabrication based on what you wish might be true.”

Humility, Keachick. Something a person cannot do without if they want to be even aware of their own ignorance or lack of understanding, let alone acknowledge it.

468. ironhyde - August 9, 2013

okay guys, cool it.

The point is, Khan looked totally wrong. Right about up there with trying to pull of Tom Hardy as a young Picard :P hahaha.. A bald head does not a Picard make, I say.

So the producers say they didn’t want to propogate stereotypes of terrorists by casting a man of appropriate ethnicity in the role of a Sikh from the Northern regions of India. Truth is, all the actors they wanted turned down the part. That’s why they used Cumberbatch. And then hang it on racial awareness? The same people that generalized farmers as “hicks who only have sex with farm animals”? The guy came from the late 20th century. That’s… like 13 years ago at the least. The world isn’t perfect yet.

The writers, producers made a mistake. Done.

469. ironhyde - August 9, 2013

And the purpose for the villian, his backstory, his intent, his reason for being there in the movie at all — none of it was sufficient or us to forget or forgive the strange errors made in casting and character.

470. NuFan - August 9, 2013

You can forget that you have things backwards. If you disagree with 87% of the critics, it doesn’t mean that 87% of the critics are wrong. It means that you are wrong.

471. crazydaystrom - August 9, 2013

466. Keachick-
“What to do?”
_________

Damn good question, K. The answer can’t be to bombard the senses so the audience doesn’t have time to think of the other things they could be doing while at the theater. Or maybe that IS the only way. If so, that is very sad.

But maybe that’s the sadly natural evolutionary flow of the movie theater experience. The Today show this morning mentioned a new Forbes Magazine story about rudeness, talking and general inattentiveness in theaters. I haven’t read it yet but I’m fifty-six years old and have been going to the theater for most of those years and have been really into ‘film’ since I was about eighteen. For the first time in all those years I am really considering doing what many other people already have begun to do, not going to the movie at the theater anymore. Or cutting back to three or four films a year. That would be down from the three or four a month I was seeing a year or two ago. The movies generally are not as intelligent, IMHO, as they once were and the movie going experience is often a lousy one and at the same time the prices are higher for tickets. And concessions are insanely exorbitantly priced. I actually don’t mind the prices (well, not so very much) because I want to support the theaters and I know that’s how they make their profits to stay open but high prices along with having to listen the movie OVER conversations around me AND having lights from cell phone screens a flashing distraction makes it not worth the money spent at all.

And that type of theater experience IS becoming the norm anymore and is no longer the exception. It used to be just kids – teens and twentysomethings who were guilty of this bad and inconsiderate behavior, but now people my age and seniors are talking in theaters and not even trying to whisper when they do it. And even at my local indy theater where the movie and theater experience was, not very long ago, a nearly sacred thing. Times are changing. Okay, alright, fine. Time for me to chafe with them. At home will be my primary place to watch and enjoy movies. I know a lot of people who’ve already made this shift but I’ve been holding out.

Even Star Trek movies may not be for me anymore, at least not to be in anticipation of for months ahead of release and to rush to see as soon as I can. There do seem to be several very interesting science fiction films coming down the pike – Interstellar, Transcendence…maybe even the Wachowski’s Jupiter Ascending (don’t know about that one but I loved Cloud Atlas and the first Matrix film still holds up as GREAT sci fi, so we’ll see) and a couple of others that don’t come immediately to mind.

All that said (long-windedly, sorry), I AM going to see Elysium in about an hour, sci fi fan and movie buff that I am. My fingers are crossed that I’ll love the movie and won’t leave having wished I’d kicked the person in front of me in the back of the head!

Sorry about the rant.

472. Anthony Thompson - August 9, 2013

Speaking of conspiracies…where has Anthony Pascale Disappeared to? And just who is this ‘Matt Wright’, anyway? Was their a palace coup at Trekmovie?

473. Aurore - August 9, 2013

“Truth is, all the actors they wanted turned down the part.”
___________

That is correct.

All the Hispanic actors they wanted did not land the role.

(Neither did all the Indian/South Asian actors they apparently did not consider, of course. For reasons given and discussed, many times, on previous threads.).

Then, one day, Damon Lindelof told Mr. Abrams about Mr. Cumberbatch.
Mr. Abrams had never watched Sherlock before*.

He saw Mr. Cumberbatch ,and, the rest is (Star Trek) history…

I may not like it, but, indeed, there it is ; “Done”.

*
(Starts at 51 :36)

http://trekmovie.com/2013/04/28/watch-jj-abrams-into-darkness-cast-australia-junket-vids-bizarre-german-interview-paris-masterclass/

474. crazydaystrom - August 9, 2013

470. NuFan -
“You can forget that you have things backwards. If you disagree with 87% of the critics, it doesn’t mean that 87% of the critics are wrong. It means that you are wrong.”
_____________

OMG! You actually believe that a minority opinion is wrong solely because fewer people have it?!? And conversely that the majority is always right because they’re the majority?!? I sincerely hope I mis-inferred what you had to say because if I did you’ve indicated a human can be a lemming and a sheep, all three.

And that is not to say the 87% is wrong but O.M.G.!!!

475. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

I’m with Jai.

We all know, at some level, that the reason “Khan” is white in STID is because the producers collectively decided to cast him with a white actor.

But that’s beside the point given how iconic a character Khan is, given that they DID at least try to honor the original portrayal by first looking at three Latino actors who would have fit the role much better (and thereby accepting the same principle by which we are critisizing the choice of Cumberbatch), and, most of all, given the brilliance with which they respected canon in ST.09 and, by contrast, how shockingly they disrespected it in STID.

I always want the best Star Trek movie possible, and Cumberbatch as Khan didn’t give it to me. Still a great film but I don’t think it was as good as ST.09, mainly because of the wonderful energy ST.09 had.

476. MJ - August 9, 2013

Jai and DM,

YEP !!!

477. Yanks - August 9, 2013

@ 424. Marja – August 8, 2013

356, Yanks, “end the S/U relationship” – okay, professionally in TODAY’s military it’s not permitted for married couples or close-to-married couples to serve in the same chain of command. Many have pointed out that 200 years hence, there will probably be changes in such regulations [in fact Roddenberry himself said this] because the ships will be away from home for such long periods of time.

When did Roddenbery say this? Are you sure he wasn’t referring to having families onboard star ships? (TOS & TNG)

I understand that you don’t like the S/U relationship, but for lots of folks, some of us fans for decades, some folk brand-new to Trek, the S/U relationship is a refreshing re-take on TOS. And sure, I’d enjoy seeing Kirk and Spock playing chess. It might be fun to have McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, Sulu and Chekov at the next table playing poker! Or team Scrabble [nah, Uhura would kick everybody's patootie with a language game].

Did you even read my post? I said I didn’t mind the relationship. But now it has to go. For reason you’ve stated and the fact that Uhura obviously can’t hande it.

Kirk and Spock are the “executive level” leadership on the ship. They can’t be banging the help.

I find Spock with bigger inner conflicts quite fascinating as a character, and this gives Quinto a chance to use his acting chops. I do NOT agree with Kohlinar for Spock. There’s a reason they never even had Spock complete it in ST TMP. It would limit the character to an emotionless caricature. Spock is not and has never been “emotionless.” Kohlinar would render him thus.

I didn’t say he needed to achieve Kolinar, he never will being half human. I said he needed “some”. He’s got to get back to being Spock.

Spock had plenty of inner turmoil without dating women under his command.

478. Aurore - August 9, 2013

@472

“Truth is, all the actors they wanted turned down the part.”

___________

….That is correct…when it comes to what I remember reading about, Benicio Del Toro. Though I never heard him talk *in detail* about what had happened exactly .

So far, I only heard one side of the story.

And, on the question, I never heard much about the other actors, aside from the reasons why Demián Bichir had to decline.

479. Aly - August 9, 2013

At the risk of sounding like many others here, I have to say I keep looking for more McCoy and was hoping STID would deliver in exploring that iconic team. I was disappointed. I thought for sure that after all the praise Urban received and sheer number of people who begged for more of him we would see it. My number one request to Bob is to REALLY do that character and that trio justice. Not just a 2 min scene on the bridge.

I can see that he isn’t part of the ‘new’ trio (and god do I hate writing that) but I hope since these are early years, the real team just hasn’t been formed yet. I keep seeing people comment that the new trio is ‘cooler’ and ‘modern’ without him *eyeroll*, and I know Urban isn’t as big a name as Pine or Saldana, but Bones is much, much too important to take a backseat.

I think the late great Deforest Kelly would be thrilled with Karl Urbans portrayal, much like everyone else. The way his character was written however, not so much.

480. Aly - August 9, 2013

356 Yanks.

1. Please END the Spock/Uhura relationship. To allow this to continue is a slap in our characters’ face professionally. I have had no problem with it up until now, but I think STID gave ample reason to cut it off. ”

I have to say I agree. I was hesitant in ST09 when it came about, but I never gave it much thought or cared, but after STID I was like “ok this was a nice experiment, time to go now”.

I’m not a fan of this super emotional (for a Vulcan at least) Spock anyways. Just seeing him in a fight with a girlfriend felt so wrong to me. Both Kirk and Uhura yelling at him to feel more I was like Christ just let him be. Or have you guys forgotten what a Vulcan is?

Obviously some people like it, if you want that kind of drama and think it adds an emotional layer thats fine, if thats what you’re looking for in your Spock. The romance adds nothing for me, and now its beginning to take away. But again, these are the early years. Spock is still learning and trying things out but with any luck he will become more like the Spock we love. I don’t want to see this relationship progress.

And yes I also agree that people in Kirk and Spock position shouldn’t date the lower level. It just adds for unnecessary drama and a tense work environment, as this film clearly proved. I didn’t see the lovers spat and tension are cute or interesting in the least.

481. Phil - August 9, 2013

@443. Not so fast, MJ. A couple of observations:

The writers were vague about a lot of backstory elements in this movie. Not sure if that was deliberate or if some of the details ended up on the cutting room floor, but in Khan’s instance, and given a couple of Bob’s comments, I suspect it was deliberate.

In Rose’s defense, she’s looking for a simple explanation that’s consistent with Bob’s comments. Got to admit I liked the freezer burn theory, but the problem is it (and the Melanin theory) is that in the presence of super blood that cures death, one would think that a rash would be no problem at all for magic blood.

There is another simple explanation, and one with historical precedence – regardless of where these guys came from, they may have agreed to adopt a pseudonym if they were thawed out by people outside of their group. The French Foreign Legion accepted members under pseudonyms for years, so they would have been aware of this. So while the real Khan may still be in one of the other tubes, the entire group may have decided that if awakened by others, they would all refer to themselves as Khan (or Snoopy, Spongbob, or whatever) to mislead those who thawed them out. Of course that creates other problems, among them playing fast and loose with canon, again, but we should be used to that by now.

Recall, that that was one of my objections to dusting off Khan – if the backstory was embraced or ignored, it would invite too many comparisons to the source material, and criticisms of it’s applications, or as we are doing now, filling in the blanks. It seems to have caused more problems then it was worth. Once the decision was made to use the character, I’d of preferred to have taken it in a completely different direction, instead of the mashup of Space Seed, WOK, and SFS that we got. For the new fan, not familiar with the source material, it played just fine, and the box office supports that. For the fan, it felt contrived, and moving forward, I do hope that Orci and Kurtzman don’t repeat that mistake in the upcoming installment.

PS. In full agreement with your observation on Other Guy.

482. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

And more and more here are waking up that his and this Trek sucked.

And it was because of the writing.

Oh, yeah. Up your shafts Phil and MJ.

483. MJ - August 9, 2013

Phil,

I just don’t see it. It comes across to me as wishful thinking by fans who want to explain it away.

Ask yourself this. If Del Toro had accepted the role, do you believe that you and Keachick would still be making this argument today?

484. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

Regarding Khan’s backstory, I was surprised that after Khan introduces his identity they didn’t use that opportunity to do a flashback scene that answers the questions fans would obviously have. Something like the mind-meld scene in ST.09. Cumberbatch is a good actor and it’s cool to watch him act in that scene, but I’m not sure it was a good trade because…well…a picture IS worth a thousand words, and a flashback scene would have had lots of moving pictures.

485. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

Other Guy sounds a lot like Starfury G7.

486. My idea for Star Trek 3 - August 9, 2013

It starts in 23xx, have that information on the screen, that will make people go “Huh!?”. Then introduce a (due to the events of ST09) pimped version of the Stargazer. Cast Tom Hardy as Picard and Gemma Arterton as his first officer Beverly Crusher.

The Federation is wartorn and only a remnant of its former self. The destruction of Vulcan was responsible for some probe going somewhere else or whatever and the aliens from “Conspiracy”/Furies/extragalactical (!!!) invading in 22xx, during the 5 year mission.

The Stargazer finds a, perhaps cloaked, sleeper ship, hell perhaps even a cloaked Botany Bay with Kirk and his crew in stasis. Picard wakes them and they travel back in time (Q or not) to defeat the invaders.

487. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

484. dmduncan

I so would have much preferred that flashback as opposed to the Spock-Cumber-Khan chase at the end of movie.

488. chrisfawkes.com - August 9, 2013

Ask Peter Jackson.

489. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

428. Aurore – August 8, 2013

Regarding Damon Lindelof .

For me, all three writers are ultimately, at least equally responsible for what is to be found in the movie.

Thus, I personally don’t believe he deserves all the criticism he received here, or on other sites, as far as the sequel is concerned.

***

After reading his tweets and his other conversations elsewhere, the impression I get from the kinds of things he says, the way he says them, and from his body language is that Damon Lindelof is a fast talking con man who’s in it 60% for the money/prestige and 40% for the material, regarding Star Trek, and the percentage of the latter probably drops much further on projects other than Trek.

That’s MY impression of his character. I didn’t start out with that impression—after ST.09 I had the same good will toward Lindelof that I had for the rest of the team, but since then many little things here and there have altered my initial impression of him.

Lindelof is the opposite of Bob Orci, regarding Star Trek. Again, my impression.

490. My idea for Star Trek 3 - August 9, 2013

Hey, why was my comment #486 deleted?

491. My idea for Star Trek 3 - August 9, 2013

Sorry, my bad.

492. Yanks - August 9, 2013

The “white Khan” thing.

Really guys?

Cumby did an OUTSTANDING job with what he was given.

Jeesh…

Was Montalbán from India?

I for one am glad those other 3 turned it down, Cumby was a great John Harri-khan.

Just wish they would have left him “Harrison”

493. Yanks - August 9, 2013

No comments on the “Q” idea folks?

494. Phil - August 9, 2013

@490. No. Thank Q.

495. Aurore - August 9, 2013

“After reading his tweets and his other conversations elsewhere, the impression I get from the kinds of things he says, the way he says them, and from his body language is that Damon Lindelof is a fast talking con man who’s in it 60% for the money/prestige and 40% for the material, regarding Star Trek, and the percentage of the latter probably drops much further on projects other than Trek….”

____________________

After reading, and listening to some of his interviews ( and reading very few of his tweets ), my impression is that his humour is an acquired taste.

Besides, I believe he’s someone who truly enjoys being a writer . I sincerely think he’s not in it essentially for the money and prestige. That said, since I don’t know him personally, I realise I could be mistaken.

Especially since I’m convinced that some famous people might, at times, say things (“good” or “bad”) for our consumption only, as it were….I’m very careful…but, not infallible.

Regarding Star Trek. I think he likes it, although he may prefer Star Wars*, still, I never saw that as an issue of course ; he worked on Star Trek (2009) which I very much liked. Besides, I am personally not interested in Star Wars in the slightest, so who am I to judge?

Not to mention that, interestingly, I’ve read comments and saw reviews from people who thought Star Trek Into Darkness was far better than its predecessor storywise.

“…That’s MY impression of his character. I didn’t start out with that impression—after ST.09 I had the same good will toward Lindelof that I had for the rest of the team, but since then many little things here and there have altered my initial impression of him.

Lindelof is the opposite of Bob Orci, regarding Star Trek. Again, my impression.”

Fair enough.

*
I had a great time watching that interview with him, years ago:

http://trekmovie.com/2011/06/27/watch-epix-2-hour-40-minute-interview-with-damon-lindelof-sorry-no-star-trek-2012-news/

496. Phil - August 9, 2013

@483. Not so much wishful thinking then a desire to embrace a simpler solution. Rose’s example does not work well because of the magic blood issue…but I can understand the freezer burn theory, and it’s appeal in it’s simplicity. Conversely, the proponents of the transmogrifier on steroids theories are just as far fetched. Ask yourself a basic question – Marcus hold on Khan is extortion, plain and simple. What does he gain by plastic surgery, gene sequencing, falsified documents to hide his identity? Nothing, so why do it? To that end, adopting a pseudonym is simple, as the Federation apparently does not have any genetic data available to make a positive identification anyway. The guy can hide in plain site, because he’s off the grid, more or less. So he’s Khan (Gengsis??) ..or Harrison..or Hitler…or Mao…Amin…or Stalin. They made a decision to not create a backstory, so asides from us older fans trying to connect the dots to Space Seed, none of the racial debate really matters that much..until they kick out a comic or novel specifically tagging John Harrison/Khan to India, I’d prefer a simpler, common sense explanation then the contrived sci-fi heavy one.

Would we be having this discussion if Del Toro won the role? Yes, but for different reasons. In this day and age, if the character was going to be tagged as racially Indian, why hire a Spanish actor? RM got the role, because back in the sixties we were still paining white actors for ethnic roles – virtually unheard of today. Johnny Depp took some grief for playing Tonto, remember? Lucas got nailed for the obvious racial caricatures’ he applied to the last three SW movies. JJ got away with it here because the movie didn’t dig into the character any deeper then the guys name.

DM Duncan summed it up pretty well, and except for the motivations of individual posters, there isn’t a real reason to go hard to the mat on this – it is what it is at this point, hopefully O & K have learned something that can be applied to their next efforts, and it’s time to move on.

497. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

@492, Aurore: Hmmm, writing is its own reward and when you throw it into the marketplace it’s very easy for the pursuit of market rewards to replace the pursuit of quality. Now, to make the point (and perhaps to not make it), I have what I think would be a cool “treat” to share in here, but before I say or promise anything more, I’d better check to see if it’s possible to share it here, and how.

498. Craiger - August 9, 2013

It looks to me like Montalban had makeup on during TOS and not during TWOK.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090604045433/memoryalpha/en/images/7/72/Khan_Noonien_Singh,_2267.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/13200000/Khan-Noonien-Singh-star-trek-the-movies-13224046-1718-2560.jpg

499. Aurore - August 9, 2013

@497. dmduncan – August 9, 2013

” Hmmm, writing is its own reward and when you throw it into the marketplace it’s very easy for the pursuit of market rewards to replace the pursuit of quality.”
_____________

Perhaps.

But, what you say applies equally to *all* writers, then. Not only to Damon Lindelof, I presume…

:)

“Now, to make the point (and perhaps to not make it), I have what I think would be a cool ‘treat’ to share in here, but before I say or promise anything more, I’d better check to see if it’s possible to share it here, and how.”

Fingers crossed!

500. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

499. Aurore – August 9, 2013

But, what you say applies equally to *all* writers, then. Not only to Damon Lindelof, I presume…

***

Damon wasn’t a credited writer on ST.09, and that movie was inspired with a brilliant, very Star Trek-like idea of how to reboot the franchise using MWI/QM; STID had no such big idea.

ST.09 also had some of the best Star Trek moments ever written.

Unfortunately one of them was not shot!

And I can’t help but wonder if Damon had fought for that scene, would we have a different ending to ST.09 today?

And both of those things (just two things from a movie that was incandescent with a positive spirit) go back to Bob Orci, a man whose love for Trek is very evident.

I don’t feel the same thing from Damon Lindelof. To me it feels like he cranks bad ideas out with good ones and is convinced they’re all golden.

501. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

That’s my view from the cheap seats, anyway. ;-)

502. Trekboi - August 9, 2013

Can someone please explain to me why The Writers made no attempt to explane who “Khan” was?
It meant nothing to non fans- there were whole levels to the story that went right over their heads when a couple of lines of dialogue could have given him relevance!

Plus I do not know why they didn’t just wake up another augment & have the same situation but just a while meglomaniac augment not Khan- eliminating all the WTF he’s white?

503. Trekboi - August 9, 2013

While I did enjoy Star Trek Into Darkness I am not excited by it- it was essentialy gutless- they were too afraid of being too Star Treky & actually going into space & explore something ne which was what the first film boldly set up instead they just chased terrorists around earth, yawn.

This was the problem with the berman years – too scared to try anything new, just doing what was done before, whitch says little for the creators if they burned out on the second film.

504. Keachick - August 9, 2013

You guys have me all wrong and it is not the first time, I have to say.

Yes, MJ, you are probably right in saying that if Benecio Del Toro or another Latino or North Indian had been cast in the part of this Khan, I would not be making these comments. The reason for this is that I would not have thought through the possible consequences of lying frozen in cryostasis for some 300 years.

This has NOTHING to do with which member of which race was finally chosen to play this character or about Bob Orci’s views about not wanting to show a terrorist having dark skin or any other such distractions.

Jai seems to like rub my apparent lack of humility into the mix – nice going there btw…:( He talks about my lack of knowledge about basic human biology. I understand it. However, placing someone in a frozen cryostasis without exposure to any kind of light at all for hundreds of years is not a NATURAL biological state. All life has forms of melanin, allowing the organism to protect itself against the most damaging kind of light – eg UVB, while allowing for the uptake of necessary quantities of vitamin D, which is one of the essential nutrients responsible for the building and maintenance of our skeletal/bone structure.

Now we know that bears hibernate throughout the long cold winter months where they are exposed to no light at all and when they come out of that period of hibernation, if they went in brown, they come out looking brown etc. There are also some frogs who *freeze* as the lakes, rivers, streams freeze in the long winter months and when everything melts, they come back looking as they did before the winter freeze.
In all these cases, we are talking about a process lasting only a few MONTHS, (in a few cases YEARS), not something lasting a few HUNDRED YEARS.

The truth is that there is no scientific basis to suggest that fundamental functions could not be disrupted if any organism is deprived of light for the extraordinary, unnatural length of time. Bear in mind that Khan and his crew are not actually dead dead. All their biological functions have been so completely slowed and have been left in that state for a VERY LONG time.

This is more of a scientific query on my part. I am not sure that even any of the writers, starting with Space Seed, have necessarily thought it through or sought scientific counsel.

It is no coincidence that one of the first *commandments* this biblical Genesis God made was to say – “Let there be light”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin

Bob Orci – Please – Do you, at least, understand where I am coming from?

505. Keachick - August 9, 2013

Disruption of certain fundamental biological processes could also have the effect of limiting proper gene expression.

506. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

@504: Yeah, Keachick, but that explanation is so torturous that I’d rather endure the pain of just accepting that they cast a white man in a brown man’s role.

Khan came out brown the first time he woke up, and conditions should be exactly the same for both Khan’s in both universes up until the moment Nero arrives in the second, so what can the difference be that doesn’t make the explanation of it that way even more painful to endure than it already is?

507. Keachick - August 9, 2013

Jai – I have never referred to anybody as being “bleached white”. That is your interpretation of what I have written and I find it a bit insulting.

Bleaching implies some kind of premeditated act – people use bleach to whiten clothes, whiten otherwise grubby surfaces, women used to bleach, ie use peroxide to lighten or even whiten their natural darker hair colouring.

Would you refer to an albino person as being “bleached white”?

FWIW – I would NOT!

However, a form of albinism could be the result of prolonged (200-300 years) stay in a cryotube. Harrison/Khan was not “bleached white”. I say that for the record. You, Jai, can say whatever…

508. crazydaystrom - August 9, 2013

Saw Elysium this afternoon and LOVED it! For anyone who wants to see an adult action/adventure science fiction film go see this. Very nice character moments and development balanced very well with the action, which there was plenty of. A movie that didn’t at all seem afraid to slow down and have lovely quiet moments. And there were fine dashes of humor as well.

IMO Elysium made STID seem ‘cartoony’ in comparison. And, minus the adult language, really could have made a fine Trek adventure with not a lot of tweaking for the transposition. The story wasn’t groundbreaking in originality and was to an extent predictable. The plot was not Inception-like mind-twisting but straight forward and, all things considered, a basic one. But for this long-time Trekkie Elysium satisfied in ways STID did not come close to.

I don’t want Star Trek to become District 9 or Battlestar Galactica or any hyper-realistic and gritty sci fi (actually I would ‘t mind that but certainly don’t expect it), I just don’t like Trek being so Star Wars-y/Transformer-y. I think Star Trek be better than that. I even believe, deep in my heart, Star Trek could do Dark Knight, Skyfall, Iron Man type box office if handled properly.

Call me crazy…

509. crazydaystrom - August 9, 2013

Star Trek *can* be better than that.

510. Disinvited - August 9, 2013

#506. dmduncan – August 9, 2013

And most definitely Khan didn’t come out that same brown in TWOK. The only question for STID is is this fading some delayed aftereffect of reviving from the suspended animation process he used. What makes it tortuous is why didn’t his magic blood restore his brown in both movies?

511. Aurore - August 9, 2013

@ 500. dmduncan – August 9, 2013

“Damon wasn’t a credited writer on ST.09, and that movie was inspired with a brilliant, very Star Trek-like idea of how to reboot the franchise using MWI/QM; STID had no such big idea.

ST.09 also had some of the best Star Trek moments ever written.

Unfortunately one of them was not shot!”

__________________

Are you referring to the William Shatner scene?

If so, although I know Mr. Orci would have liked to see it included in the movie, for my part, I did not miss that scene, at all. I agree with the reasons Mr. Abrams gave at the time for not shooting it ( whether he meant it or not, I liked what he said.).

“…And I can’t help but wonder if Damon had fought for that scene, would we have a different ending to ST.09 today?And both of those things (just two things from a movie that was incandescent with a positive spirit) go back to Bob Orci, a man whose love for Trek is very evident.”

When he said that Khan was the ultimate Cadbury Easter Egg or something to that effect weeks ago, the love was not evident from my point of view. But, that is because I was sad about some of the decisions made for the sequel. We both have different opinions about the reasons he gave concerning the choice, thus, there is no need for me to say more on the question.

You know what I think. I haven’t changed my mind.

At any rate, given what I saw in 2009, I definitely can’t say he does not love Star Trek.

Furthermore, unlike me, he seems to have an appreciation for every iteration of Star Trek, he’s familiar with the entire franchise, so, I have to watch what I say.

:)

“I don’t feel the same thing from Damon Lindelof. To me it feels like he cranks bad ideas out with good ones and is convinced they’re all golden.”

Any idea why he keeps being hired to work in Hollywood?
This is a very serious question. Some have already answered it, in a way.

However, I would like to hear your opinion ( if you have one on this topic, naturally ), should you be interested in sharing it.

512. MJ - August 9, 2013

@508

Given that Elysium is getting universally bad reviews, maybe we should call you crazy then? Lol

513. MJ - August 9, 2013

Agree with DM’s posts on Damon Lindelof.

514. Thomas Vinelli - August 9, 2013

I agree with#40. new director and new writers. I said as many others, long before the 2nd movie came out ”please no Khan”. I think for all the time this movie took to made..it was a big mistake. They could have written that story in a year and had it on screen in 2. By the time it hit the screen a lot of interest was gone. This will happen to with Avatar2 and others , even Starwars. People just lose interest. Hollywood needs to get in tune with this fact. They take way to long between movies. If you look back to the old Trek films they took 2 years at the most. Back to the future, because all 3 movies were shot at the same time, we saw one a year as we are with the Hobbit. But even the Hobbit because of the gap between Lord of the rings and the Hobbit, interest has been lost and i really enjoyed The Hobbit. For Star trek 3 to be successful, it needs a new story , not rehashing the old. Maybe Ron Moore would be good as one writer, since because of him we have a great canon on Klingons. STid wasn’t a bad film ,its just i think the studio and JJ and the writers played it safe. The 3rd one needs something new and different. I’m sure they won’t listen to us , they never do.

515. Basement Blogger - August 9, 2013

@ 447

Keachick,

The best way to defend or explain why they could use Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan is to actually look at the canon. For that, let’s take a look at the episode “Space Seed.” Additionally, let’s look at the “magic blood” term used by STID’s detractors.

1. Here’s Lt. McGivers assessment of Khan upon first seeing him. That’s after she gives him he once over.

“From the northern India area, I GUESS… PROBABLY a Sikh.

Analysis: She’s not sure of his race but surmises that he is a Sikh. So, are we locked into the Sikh race? No, because she is unsure of his race.

2. Khan is genetically engineered. We’ve never met his mother or father. If both parents were Skih, then he’s going to be racially a Sikh.

Genetically engineered could also be grown out of a test tube. That’s probably the best way of doing it since you could more accurately engineer specific characteristics. See Glofish.

Spock notes that he could be a product of “selective breeding.” No details are given. So even if Khan was not created in a test tube, no details on the races of both parents.

Let’s assume daddy Khan genetically created Khan. There’s nothing in the canon that indicates that he intentionally created a racial Sikh.

But Star Trek: Enterprise seems to indicate that the superman were grown out of test tubes. See episode “Cold Station 12.” Season V.

3. The casting in Space Seed. Ricardo Montalban is a Mexican. He plays Khan with his Hispanic accent intact.

4. On the whole “magic blood” Dr. McCoy kn “Space Seed” notes his recuperative powers McCoy notes that something in his body “refuses to accept death.” Nothing in the canon refutes that part of Khan’s super recuperative powers could come from his blood and that these recuperative powers could be transferred to other people.

Based on the canon, there’s nothing in the canon that mandates that Khan must be racially a Sikh or that Khan’s blood does not have recuperative properties.

516. Disinvited - August 9, 2013

#515. Basement Blogger – August 9, 2013

Well, one thing that prevents him from “racially” being a Sikh is that Sikh isn’t a race but a believer in a certain, for lack of a better word, religion.

517. David Oakes - August 9, 2013

Relax everyone. Pretty sure it will be someone from the Bad Robot camp.
If JJ is exec producer – he probably has a say in who will replace him – If he doesn’t do it himself – which could still happen if they finish Episode VII by mid – late 2014.

518. crazydaystrom - August 9, 2013

512. MJ
“@508

Given that Elysium is getting universally bad reviews, maybe we should call you crazy then? Lol”
_________

Ha! Feel free to, I do. :-)
But it’s not universal, I just heard a good review of Elysium on an NPR show. And that’s the only review I’ve heard so far, so I can honestly say 100% of the reviews that I’ve heard/read are positive.

But as I said in a post upthread, being in the minority does not in and of itself make one in error. I’ll read some reviews later. The GF and I are about to have dinner and binge on some Breaking Bad in preparation for the season premiere Sunday! Good times!

519. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

Well they obviously TRIED to make Montalban more “Indian” looking in Space Seed, because they painted the man brownish, which is not Montalban’s natural skin tone, so when you look at all the evidence canon DOES provide, the intent was for Khan to be exactly what his name and McGivers’ assumptions suggest he is. That was the intent, that’s the intent fans have largely accepted since the 1960′s, and not until Cumberbatch was cast did people begin to concoct alternate theories regarding Khan that fit the presumed character Cumberbatch was cast to play.

So if the Supreme Court were interested in “precedent,” they would have followed that precedent and, in fact, as the casting candidates prior to Cumberbatch show, they DID try to follow that precedent before abandoning it.

An Indian Khan was also consistent with Star Trek’s cultural “mission” during the 60′s to put more “people of color” (I hate that phrase, but oh well) in front of the public on TV as part of its vision of a truly multiracial future.

Also, while it’s true that Sikh is a religion and not a race, it is also true despite whatever white convert you mayhap to find, that Sikhs also comprise people of a certain race which Cumberbatch looks nothing like a member of, but which Montalban—as Jai, himself a Sikh, has pointed out—DOES look like.

In my view the attempt to whitewash the color change by any of the above strategies is adding whitewash on top of whitewash.

520. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

For whatever reason, and I suspect there were a bunch of them. Cumberbatch was the guy they got. Not the best of all possible worlds candidate for the role, but that’s the way it turned out and the movie is what it is because of it. Time to move on and look to the future. Hopefully without Damon, because I just don’t think the franchise is better with him on board. ;-)

521. ironhyde - August 9, 2013

493 – Yanks!

Q is a good idea. But it needs to be treated properly. Not like “oh I remember Q was a smart-ass” and then trying to imitate that. Q is really the one that needs to be approached like Joker. You need to re-invent, while keeping the spirit. I would LOVE a movie with Q. I would love to see “All Good Things..” type sci-fi in a theatre. Unfortunately, I think i’ll turn into an x-men movie if you put Q in. I would love to see it done — but only done RIGHT. If not right (and I’m pretty sure they can assess their own capabilities as story tellers and writers) then jj et al shouldn’t go there.

522. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

Besides, if you want to argue that Khan wasn’t a Punjab Sikh because he didn’t satisfy some unpredictable-at-the-time future fannish demand that he clearly state for the record who he was as opposed to just accepting the intent of the producers, then almost ANYTHING in Star Trek that is implied and then accepted for decades could be revised in the same way.

Using that type of logic, Scotty might be a transsexual because you didn’t see his birth or childhood.

523. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

495. Aurore – August 9, 2013

Besides, I believe he’s someone who truly enjoys being a writer . I sincerely think he’s not in it essentially for the money and prestige. That said, since I don’t know him personally, I realise I could be mistaken.

***

Well I’m a fair-minded person. That’s why I said I thought he was only 60% in it for the money and prestige (and other perks), and 40% in it for the material when the material is Star Trek.

Again, just MY impression of the guy which started out one way back in 2009 before which I didn’t even know his name, and today when it is quite different than what it was back then.

524. Keachick - August 9, 2013

I am querying the possible consequences of putting ANYONE in cryostasis for a very long period of time, irrespective of their original melanin levels or skin colour. How much clearer could I have been? Frankly, I don’t give a damn about this guy calling him Khan who was a man whose origins were from Northern India in the TOS prime Star Trek universe.

What I am saying is that possibly the very process of lengthy cryostasis could have a sort of albino type effect on anyone, irrespective of their original colour/race/ethnicity or whatever. The ability for a person’s genetic inheritance to be fully expressed is dependent on a number of factors, including the possibility/probability that low or no light levels for a couple of 100 years could impede normal expression of that person’s genetic inheritance.

The reality is that we just don’t know. I am not whitewashing anything or anyone.

Lord – Give me strength…honestly, really…:(

525. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

ELYSIUM KICKS ASS!!! =D

ELYSIUM is what science fiction is REALLY ABOUT!!!

THANK GOD somebody gets it!!! =D

…not like this STEAMING PILE of STID, what a P.O.S.!!!

GO SEE ELYSIUM!!! (and learn something…) ;-)

…you damn jabronis… =D

526. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

jabroni (plural jabronis)

(professional wrestling slang) a performer whose primary role is to lose to established talent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR9daBklSNg

527. Keachick - August 9, 2013

Go away, I am not Herbert. I mean it. I don’t need to read words like steaming pile of… screamed out at me.

You have now given me a reason NOT to go see Elysium…:(

So is this also how you see posters here -

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jabroni&defid=1184851

Enough – some moderation, please.

528. Ahmed - August 9, 2013

@ 526. Keachick – August 9, 2013

“You have now given me a reason NOT to go see Elysium…:(”

Don’t let anyone deter you from watching any movie that you were planning to watch.

529. Aurore - August 9, 2013

@ 522. dmduncan – August 9, 2013

Well I’m a fair-minded person. That’s why I said I thought he was only 60% in it for the money and prestige (and other perks), and 40% in it for the material when the material is Star Trek.

Again, just MY impression of the guy which started out one way back in 2009 before which I didn’t even know his name, and today when it is quite different than what it was back then.

________________

Yes.
As I said earlier ; fair enough.

P.S. : In the interview I linked to @ 495 , from what I remember, he spoke at length about his job as a writer. That is the main reason why I said I had a great time watching it.

530. P Technobabble - August 9, 2013

Ok, just spent the last hour reading through this thread. My interest was really piqued when Bob asked: “What should the next movie be about?” Obviously, the question was not meant to imply the writers were scratching their heads wondering what to write next. I’m pretty sure it was just meant for a bunch of Trek fans to sit around and share their “what if’s.” So, some of the more antagonistic responses to Bob’s question made me want to comment.
But I won’t.
At the same time — and I mean no disrespect to any of the more sincere fans — I saw a lot of, “Bob, can you make the next movie about (fill in your plotline)” or “Bob, can you bring back (fill in your character or alien).” Plotlines and specific characters are NOT, in my opinion, what will make the next Trek movie (or any movie for that matter) a “must see” event.
IMO, plots are easy. How many books, tv shows, movies have used the same plots? Now, at this point we might say “It’s about the characters,” but we’re not simply talking about the bodies with names that appear on the screen. We’re talking about the qualities, the needs, the desires and so forth that make them who they are.
So, for example, if the next Trek movie involves Klingons then the story will come from how Kirk deals with them and not about some vortex that opens up, sucking them all into some interdimensional void where multi-brained vampire creatures force the Feds and the Klingons to work together. Maybe that does happen, but that is not (or should not be) the gist of a movie. The gist of the movie would be about what each of the enemies is willing to do in order to survive. And since we know the Klingons can’t be trusted (eh?), perhaps Kirk finds a way to turn the tables on them and force them to trust him.
I’m sure my point is not news, but I think it’s important to keep in mind that the story has to come into being because of what’s at the heart of each character. I’ve said a number of times, the thing about Kirk is that, in the end, he is willing to sacrifice his life for his crew and his ship. There’s a story in that. Spock is at odds with himself (especially a younger Spock), trying to come to terms with his two halves. There’s a story in that.
Just my 2 cents, of course. I just love Star Trek, period.

531. Patrick T. McWilliams - August 9, 2013

Can we please stop calling it JJ-Trek?

532. Jake - August 9, 2013

Please God not Orci and Kurtzmann again. They are great guys and their genuine love for Trek is obvious in the way they write, but they are just terrible screenwriters.

We could give 09′s bad story a pass because there was just so much that had to get done in that movie, but absolutely everything wrong about STID was the script. Everyone gave great performances, the direction and editing was great, the score and the VFX and everything else was fantastic, but the script was just terrible, and worse for its laughable attempt to have a complicated plot. It was like a 10-year-old wrote the story and then it was handed off to professional writers to create a screenplay around.

They are the perfect writers for the Transformers franchise. I know Trek is an action movie franchise now, but action movies can be well-written, and they just cannot DO that.

Sorry boborci, I think you’re a great guy and a great fan, but you guys just aren’t good enough.

533. Phil - August 9, 2013

@530. It’s good to see a bit of reasoned commentary from time to time. The plot of just about every Trek movie has been ‘Kirk and crew overcome (insert name of villain/adversary here). The better movies have done a good job engaging the audience in the characters and their quest, the bad ones, not so much. This is a new universe, lets have engaging, fresh insight moving forward.

534. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

Dear sweet Rose: here’s a HUG and a Cupcake… =)

535. Phil - August 9, 2013

It doesn’t look like Elysium is being badly reviewed. At best, mixed. The class warfare theme seems a bit heavy handed, but considering the director, that should not be a surprise. Matt Damon as a Borg…gee, there’s a concept. The STID haters will probably pile on, but these guys would probably declare that bug splatter on a windshield was more entertaining – take that with a grain of salt….

536. Phil - August 9, 2013

Hey, Rose, don’t spend too much time researching frozen skin. Even if it doesn’t bleach out, it’s still likely to be dry. Or moldy.

There is another good explanation, though, that explains his pasty whiteness. He’s adopted.

537. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

531. Patrick T. McWilliams

Sorry, That was me that started that.

That and Magic Blood. : 0 : ) ; )

538. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

…he’s the red-headed step-child… heh ;-)

539. Barney Fife - August 9, 2013

I went to see Elysium today. It didn’t do much for me….I thought the director did a far better job with District 9.

540. Basement Blogger - August 9, 2013

@ 516

Disinvited,

You are correct. Sikh is a religion. Lt. McGivers refers to the Sikhs of northern India. So maybe I should say Indian.

541. Tom - August 9, 2013

Unfortunately one of them was not shot!”

Right on Dm!!

I respect JJ and the teams choice not to use the Shatner scene .However I can think of quite a few scenes in Star Trek 09 that the screentime would have better used with that scene. Anyway that is past but looking at the next movie I really hope (bob are you listening?) that something could be done for the 50th anniversary movie.

Perhaps an end credits scene( like Marvel does so effectively).for Bill and Leonard. That way it couldnt be accused of being shoehorned in or interfering with the story. If the team does get them in the heart of the movie even better. Failing that I think the end credit scene would work. Hopefully Bill and Leonard would like to be involved in the movie in some way to celebrate the great milestone of the 50th.
There would not be much need for exposition since most casual moviegoers leave before the end credits. If they wanted to see it they could stay to see the originals . Nice way to see these legends celebrate Trek. I hope the team considers doing something special that in no way would hurt the new movie

542. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

ELYSIUM has social relevance (in spades) =D …unlike steaming pile STID

plus, it’s a great f*cking movie. PERIOD. 5-stars with a bullet… ;-)

if you are an ignorant, hateful, greedy Republi-c*nt, you will HATE IT. ;-)

543. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

if you are an ignorant, hateful, greedy Republi-c*nt, you were able to stomach District 9 because “bugs” were being persecuted… this time the message is INESCAPABLE! ;-)

544. Li'l Shat - August 9, 2013

STAR TREK: It’s a whole new timeline guys! Let’s do something new.

STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS: Okay, so we have ingeniously freed ourselves from the weight of existing Trek canon. We can literally go anywhere we want to go–turn left where the original Enterprise turned right! Now we can boldly go! What shall we do? I know, let’s do Khan!

545. Star Trek: The Next Generation - August 9, 2013

Do a new movie with the Start Trek: The Next Generation Crew. You know, with Patrick Stewart, et al… Nemesis too weak for them to go out on. Do something with Q, or the Dominion, and Borg, etc… Data can easily be brought back to life with B4.

546. Commie Hater - August 9, 2013

Elysium is a piece of commie (Obamunist) propaganda garbage. I’m sorry to see such a talented director attached to such communist filth.

547. MJ - August 9, 2013

The whole Khan in cryo turns white thing makes no sense at all, because if that was true, then TOS Khan would also look white. So this wacky idea doesn’t even fit this argument.

548. Ahmed - August 9, 2013

@ 543. I am not Herbert – August 9, 2013

“if you are an ignorant, hateful, greedy Republi-c*nt, you were able to stomach District 9 because “bugs” were being persecuted… this time the message is INESCAPABLE! ;-)”

I’m a liberal, but seriously this is not the way to address other people even if they are right wing nuts.

549. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

ELYSIUM: the shots of the habitat reminded me of 2001 like no other before… =)

IIRC, i think it was reminiscent of a Heinlein paperback cover from my childhood too… good stuff! =)

550. rtrj - August 9, 2013

543. I am not Herbert – August 9, 2013

if you are an ignorant, hateful, greedy Republi-c*nt,

Why is it that “Open Minded” Liber-als resort to name calling and are so bigoted against anyone who disagrees with them? Let’s cut the political Crap and discuss Star Trek.

551. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

IF the shoe fits… ;-)

552. Ahmed - August 9, 2013

@ 545. MJ – August 9, 2013

“The whole Khan in cryo turns white thing makes no sense at all, because if that was true, then TOS Khan would also look white. So this wacky idea doesn’t even fit this argument.”

Yep, it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

Are you planning to see “Elysium” ?

553. rtrj - August 9, 2013

549. I am not Herbert – August 9, 2013

IF the shoe fits… ;-)
Maybe you should take it and your foot out of your mouth.

554. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

you don’t want a pissing contest with me…

…now here’s a HUG and a Cupcake… ;-)

555. rtrj - August 9, 2013

552. I am not Herbert – August 9, 2013

you don’t want a pissing contest with me…

Herbert, I promise not to call you, or anyone else names. I love Star Trek and Science Fiction. You certainly seem passionate about your beliefs. I’m sure sure you appreciate other peoples opinions and respect the creative
ideas of everyone here ; )

556. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

rtrj: I bow to you with respect and admiration =)

for I to, love Star Trek and Science Fiction! =D

…unfortunately, JJ&Co. don’t get it… =(

…in fact they sh*t on it… =((

557. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

GO SEE ELYSIUM!!! =D

558. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

OK, all you Rotten Tomato visitors out there. All you Star Trek into Darkness RULEZ Trekkies. That’s all you can do is point at a putrid tomato website and proclaim how EPIC your venture into darkness was.

How about looking at your favorite site? TrekMovie.com. Yeah, that’s right.
TrekMovie asked for us Trekkie fans to post our reviews of the new movie.

So, I just went and counted the responses posted here at TrekMovie at the top of the page link labeled “Into Darkness Fan Reviews.” Please remember that I gave the ‘benefit of doubt’ to those that said 3/5 stars as a positive review, or ones that said “it was mostly OK.”

I counted the ‘positive’ reviews against the negative ones, and the totals are as follows…

65 positive reviews
72 negative reviews

559. Red Dead Ryan - August 9, 2013

#543. I am not Herbert.

“if you are an ignorant, hateful, greedy Republi-c*nt, you were able to stomach District 9 because “bugs” were being persecuted… this time the message is INESCAPABLE! ;-)”

That is one of the nastiest posts that I have ever read on this site. That was totally uncalled for, and if Anthony were here, he’d permaban your a$$ from this place for good.

Honestly, you and Other Guy ought to get a new hobby or something.

560. Red Dead Ryan - August 9, 2013

And oh, yeah, I am not Herbert is very much Herbert. :-)

561. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

Hey, Red Dead.

F.U!

562. Basement Blogger - August 9, 2013

@ 542

I am not Herbert says,

“ELYSIUM has social relevance (in spades) =D …unlike steaming pile STID”

“:if you are an ignorant, hateful, greedy Republi-c*+t, you will HATE IT. ;-)”

I’m guessing you are serious when you say Elysium has social relevance because you follow that statement with a an emoticon. Smiley face? Because Elysium does, in not subtle ways, brings up the topics of immigration and health care. It gets political so I hope I don’t upset our Republican friends.

Second, the big reason I love Star Trek Into Darkness was because it did have social relevance. Bob, Alex and Damon raised contemporary issues. In case you forgot:

1. Use of drones to kill one’s enemies without a trial. Spock raises this issue to Kirk of killing Khan with a missile without a trial. The United States killed Al Awalki, an American citizen. He was not given due process or a trial guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment. And frankly I don’t weep for the guy but the idea bothers me.

2. War. Will an arms race or preparation for war lead to war? The U.S.S Vengeance was built for a reason.

3. The war on terror. I’m going to try not to spoil STID. But will there come a point where may forgo our cherished constitutional liberties for the sake of being secure from terror. When a Federation member does that against what the Federation stands for, he goes “Into Darkness.” By the way, the war on terror was explored for the whole third season in “Enterprise.” Remember the war with the Xindi?

4. The militarization of space travel. Scotty argues a point discussed by Trekkers for years. Is Starfleet a military organization? Should it be? In STID, Scotty says they’re explorers.

5. Guantanamo Bay. This one may not be intentional but Khan’s people are frozen in limbo. Those at Guantanamo Bay are also in legal limbo. What do we do with them?

6. Super power intervention. The Prime Directive is brought out in first scenes of STID. Watch interviews with Gene Roddenberry. He was unhappy with American involvement in Viet Nam. You can also go back in history and look at the Spanish conquest of the Mayans. In relevant terms, do we use military might to force democracy on other countries?

Want more ideas explored Star Trek Into Darkness? Death. Friendship.

As for who will like or hate Elysium, let me first say I’m a liberal. I like Elysium, but not as much as you. The movie has some major problems that even this liberal can spot.

563. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

…you forgot to tell me to “get a job!” ;-)

564. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

ELYSIUM: …yes, the fight with, and subsequent death of the lead protagonist could have been more “satisfying”… but not sure if that is weakness…

death of #2 baddy was right on (he had it coming…) lousy MF’er…

565. Disinvited - August 9, 2013

# 550. Ahmed – August 9, 2013

@ 545. MJ – August 9, 2013

“The whole Khan in cryo turns white thing makes no sense at all, because if that was true, then TOS Khan would also look white. So this wacky idea doesn’t even fit this argument.”

Indeed, SPACE SEED is canon and in it he doesn’t wake up pale. However, in both TWOK and STID which are both canon too, Khan is paler than he is in SPACE SEED. Also, he’s never shown popping out of cryo in STID; so trying to lay it on coming out of cryo that way is not in evidence. However, clearly in both movies through some unexplained mechanism some time after waking up, the character loses pigment. That’s canon too.

566. I am to Smurfy - August 9, 2013

I love the Klingons, and I am sure a movie focused on them would be awesome in this universe.
But I wouldn’t mind seeing either a new species or one that has not recieved the big screen treatment yet as the villian.

Why not the Cardassians? We know they are allready known in this time line since Uhura ordered a Cardasian Sunrise in 09.

567. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

…yeah STID “tried” to have “social relevance”… but did you learn anything (good)? HAH!

568. Ahmed - August 9, 2013

@562. I am not Herbert

Will you please stop spoiling Elysium ? The movie just came out today & you are already spoiling major events in the movie.

This is no way to encourage people to watch a movie that you claim to be fond of.

569. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

Yeah, I did.

I learned that the the Writer’s think average Trekkie is so dumb he does not know when his country has deceived them and will pay to watch (how did 82. Brother John say it in the Fan Reviews article? Oh, yeah) a spectacle of mass killings.

Yeah. REAL FUN. Thanks alot.

.

570. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

Yeah, herbert. You just sealed my decision to watch it on cable.

571. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

Other Guy SPEAKS TRUTH!

572. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

gee, sorry for giving it away… there is conflict, people die… sorry i blew it for you… =(

573. SirBroiler - August 9, 2013

Bob –

You’ve ignored me for too long. ;)

Want to know what to do?

1. Fix the Khan problem in one swoop – he wasn’t Khan – but another crew member. Joachim – whomever. So let’s find a way to bring THE REAL KHAN back into the story.

2. Take a play on the Menagerie – we know if pushed Spock will break the rules. There’s a way to save Vulcan – and he takes over the ship to do it. Even if it costs him his career, his friendship with Kirk, and his relationship with Uhura.

3. How do you save Vulcan? The Guardian of Forever. Spock finds out about this secret Starfleet discovery and goes for it. Maybe even with a little help from a scientist running the research – T’Pol? But guess who got their first…

4. Klingons – like Genesis – they would do anything to get their hands on the Guardian as an ultimate weapon. There’s your conflict. Have to have them. They are the primary villain in the TOS/JJ era. Let’s keep it that way. Not to mention they have a score to settle with both Kirk and Khan at this point.

5. Thanks to the Guardian – you can inject any past Trek into this story even if in the most subtle of ways. Maybe an inadvertent jump onto the NX-01? The crew from Enterprise is really the only group who can still pull it off nowadays anyway.

6. Show some real Kirk cunning in this one. More of a mind game then a full-on action battle. That’s why we loved Kirk. He was a master strategist and great a pulling a fast one. Use this to your advantage.

7. Orion slave girls.

574. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

Wow. How silent can Phil and MJ be? You two should re-read my post at #556 above while I am away this evening.

Good night, you little dickens.

575. Captain, USS Northstar - August 9, 2013

To borrow a well-known phrase: “I can see we still have a long way to go.”

576. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

570. I am not Herbert

Not totally your fault, Herbert. You sound like a newbie. Next time say “SPOILER ALERT!” before posting big story news.

Actually, Elysium sounded a little to like social programming for my tastes.
But the trailer looked amazing.

577. Jonboc - August 9, 2013

#556. “How about looking at your favorite site? TrekMovie.com. Yeah, that’s right.
TrekMovie asked for us Trekkie fans to post our reviews of the new movie.”

…well, all I’d say to that is this…out of the millions of people who saw Into Darkness, worldwide, a cumulative round-up of 137 good and bad reviews by Trek movie visitors doesn’t really mean a whole hell of a lot! Lol

578. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

…I should say “SARCASM ALERT” too, i’m sure… ;-)

I didn’t spoil… go see, already!

579. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

575. Jonboc

Don’t you think that visitor to TrekMovie would want to post a good review?

As I said. I gave the benefit of the doubt to 25% of the positive reviews.
AND. If you read the article and all the reviews, it’s pretty clear that a good portion of the negative reviews were really, really negative.

580. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

I was just watching Into The Universe With Stephen Hawking, the episode on Time Travel.

Watch that episode!!! The “time machine” was a MASSIVE starship and the entire dramatization was AMAZING. If you populated that ship with good characters you could make one kick-ass SF movie out of humanity’s first journey to a different star, and you wouldn’t have to fudge the science at all to tell it.

581. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

…yeah, it’s not about being “spoiled”… it’s about avoiding morality… =(

582. MJ - August 9, 2013

DM, perhaps Nolan’s “Interstellar” will give us just that.

583. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

Stephen Hawking is amazingly xenophobic of “extra-terrestrials”… =(

…one might even say a fear-monger… =(

584. MJ - August 9, 2013

Other Guy,

It’s just killing you dude that we are ignoring your lame posts.

Lol

585. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

… i’m NOT touching you… … i’m NOT touching you… … i’m NOT touching you…

586. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

;: 0

587. I am not Herbert - August 9, 2013

OK I’m out… G’nite kiddies! =)

588. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

Joke on you, MJ.

I am the Other Guy.

589. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

Gotta go too. Late.

590. Disinvited - August 9, 2013

#575. Jonboc – August 9, 2013

Last I checked the world population was around 7 billion. So while millions saw it, billions haven’t, and I imagine that should be equally sobering?

591. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

Oh, and all the talk about cuber-khan and his race.

So more lame than anything I’ve written in weeks.

592. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - August 9, 2013

@556. Other Guy – August 9, 2013

“I counted the ‘positive’ reviews against the negative ones, and the totals are as follows…

65 positive reviews
72 negative reviews”

I’m surprised it’s that close, given the inate human tendency to voice a complaint rather than praise…

…and, to paraphrase Jonboc, the sample size is too small and biased (statistically speaking) to be relevent.

593. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

Well? How many reviews does Rotten Tomatoes have?

Star Trek Into Darkness (2013)
tomatometer
Top Critics 87%
Average Rating: 7.5/10
Reviews Counted: 242
Fresh: 210 | Rotten: 32

Yeah. BIG difference in number of reviews. Please.

594. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

If I did not make my point above clear.

More than half of “us” did NOT like STiD.

595. Other Guy - August 9, 2013

I’m surprised it’s that close, given the inate human tendency to voice a complaint rather than praise…

I appreciate that. Ordinarily. But this is a TrekMovie website. Where fans gather. I think the numbers are genuine and the fanbase is that broad to generate big numbers for a faulty Star Trek.

Face it. They screwed up. It could have been as EPIC set of movies. But, like I’ve said before, apparently the leagacy of ST09 and the writing of STiD killed this latest Trek for me, and others as well. My hopes have been dasjed at ever seeing another great Trek movie with the current writers on board.

596. Navy - August 9, 2013

@527. Keachick

Why do you hate freedom of speech and support censorship so much?

I can understand certain moderation as the course of action of a private site, however having a differing opinion from someone is not reasonable grounds to limit their free speech.

597. dmduncan - August 9, 2013

MJ, I’m looking forward to Interstellar. I expect an outstanding SF movie from Nolan.

598. Red Dead Ryan - August 9, 2013

Michael Caine is going to be in “Interstellar”. If that movie is a success, hopefully it’ll encourage more hard sci-fi movies and shows.

599. MJ - August 9, 2013

Other Guy,

Once again, dude,

I could care less who you are, and your riddles do not interest me. Your bait doesn’t work with me, troll. Give it up!

600. Jack - August 10, 2013

Any big screen Trek is going to have to be action adventure. Heck, so will any small screen Trek. That doesn’t mean it can’t have a smart, solid story.

But I don’t think K&O are the guys to deliver that. At least not from what we’ve seen so far. No offense, Bob.. Why not shop this thing around. Or take a pitch or spec script or two from the fine folks here.

601. Vultan - August 10, 2013

I’m looking forward to “Interstellar” too. Been reading some good things about Alfonso Cuaron’s “Gravity” as well. Here’s the trailer in case you missed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuMU2q00w3I

Looks like that’s a movie you must see in IMAX. And it makes me nostalgic seeing a space shuttle in orbit again.

602. Captain Slow - August 10, 2013

@ 599 Vultan

I watched the ISS and Atlantis orbit over head on its last mission. Even though it was just a glowing dot it was really cool.

603. Basement Blogger - August 10, 2013

@ 556

Other Guy,

Just because you say that a majority of Trekkers here gave Star Trek Into Darkness a negative review does not mean that a majority of Trekkers hated the movie. Here’s why.

1, THE FAN REVIEWS ARE ONLY THOSE BY PEOPLE WHO DECIDED TO PARTICIPATE. IT’S NOT A SCIENTIFIC POLL.

Let me try to explain this with a hypothetical. Let’s say out of one thousand Trekkers, 910 Trekkers liked Star Trek Into Darkness. Let’s say ninety hated it. Okay and let’s say the ninety that hated the movie submitted bad reviews and ten submitted positive reviews. That doesn’t mean a majority of Trekkers hated the movie. It’s only the ninety that submitted reviews. Got it?

Here’s a better measure of Trekker approval of Star Trek Into Darkness. I think it’s safe to assume that the majority of the audience for the movie are some form of Trekker. Casual. Regular. Hardcore.

Star Trek Into Darkness is the highest grossing movie of the Star Trek franchise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Into_Darkness

2. I don’t trust guys who troll so I’m not trusting your analysis of the fan reviews.

604. tesla's Cat - August 10, 2013

Bob Orci: if it were up to me I’d want something truly brain-meltingly weird. Explore the concept of interacting with something thoroughly alien and unlike us. I daresay that would not be considered suitably commercial. As you were, with splosions and such, then.

605. jim nightshade - August 10, 2013

isnt eliasyiums plot like cloudminders tos? and that earlier movie was a rip off of another tos episode….thenpurge sounded like return of the archons landru festival….

606. jim nightshade - August 10, 2013

i hope bob orci sees and reads my apology to him…..

607. Number 3 - August 10, 2013

Third film…bring in Shatner as PineKirk’s grandfather Tiberius….stranded on an alien world for years, one of Earth’s first deep-space explorers, his ship lost to a force of unstoppable power (doomsday machine?) while saving a NEW alien race.
The USS Constellation comes to assist the Enterprise and is NOT destroyed, only disabled.
2 Kirks and Decker working together with the crew to stop this force before it reaches more inhabited worlds.
Tiberius Kirk, ” I was steering a ship around the galaxy when you were nothing more than a gleam in your father’s eye.”
um….maybe have Matt Damon,Tom Hanks or even Stephen Collins as Commodore Matthew Decker.

just musing.

608. dswynne - August 10, 2013

@bob orci: Did you know that “Khan” is a title, and that it was not ethnic specific? According to WIkipedia, there have been white and East Asians given the name “Khan” as a military title (which is STILL is in use today). So, whose to say that the Khan that showed up in STiD is a different Khan other than Noonien Singh? Nevertheless, if you do manage to do ST3, bring in “Number One”, who was Christopher Pike’s original First Officer (from the TOS pilot “The Cage”). I could see Jennifer Garner in this role, who could be Kirk’s new superior (replacing Pike). And definitely NO MORE REVENGE STORIES. We have already covered that ground three times already. Try something different for a change, but keep the spirit of discovery in the background.

609. Vultan - August 10, 2013

#600

Cool! I once saw the MIR space station fly overhead—before it burned up a few weeks later. It was just a glowing dot too, but still pretty awesome.

610. Jonboc - August 10, 2013

#590. “I’m surprised it’s that close, given the inate human tendency to voice a complaint rather than praise…

…and, to paraphrase Jonboc, the sample size is too small and biased (statistically speaking) to be relevent.”

Yep. The only real numbers we have to draw conclusions from are box office dollars. And from that perspective, it has performed, in relation to other Trek movies, spectacularly. The only other obvious conclusions we can draw, is the definite domestic drop and the amazing increase in interest across the rest of the world. I don’t see anything anywhere that says failure, I just have questions as to why the rest of the world has responded so favorably…that intrigues me. Domestically….well, Americans are such a fickle bunch I never try to second guess why we like or dislike ANYTHING.

611. Elias Javalis - August 10, 2013

Mr Orci, a thought..! Would it be great to base a series upon the long war with the Klingons? As i recall the Enterprise in TOS defended the Federation from them! Movieland cant wrap a war this Epic!! Just a thought.!

Thanks if you read this!!

612. Khan 2.0 - August 10, 2013

Random stuff id like to see in ST3:

-set a good 5 years after STID (which would be the TMP movie era or ‘Lost years’ era in the Prime timeline). Like the first film showed us the pre 5 years mission, this would show us post 5 year mission which is also untold onscreen and allowing it to be more a big budget updated version of the original movies (not so much the original series like ST09/STID).

-mushroom space dock with the massive blue lit interior housing all the ships
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120316224125/memoryalpha/en/images/6/6b/Earth_Spacedock,_2293.jpg

-ripped shirts drop kicks and Kirk-Fu:
http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/305/c/8/an_introduction_to_kirk_fu_by_rabittooth-d5jnrdo.jpg

-TOS & movie music nods (Goldsmith & Horner rifts – not anything big – just a musical ‘cameos’ like Amok Time fight music in STID)

-lengthy phaser ‘beams’ not star wars ‘bolts/blasts’
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Polls/Pictures/Poll007-Phaser.jpg

-Enterprise refit more sleek like TOS movies (esp if set in the TMP era) – e.g. the Ent at the end being refitted into full on exact TMP Enterprise (cool image to end the movie on)

-getting more toward foreshadowing the TWOK style uniforms/field jackets/equipment/ship designs (again esp if set good few years later)

-more movie style to the sound FX/visual FX of the beaming/phasers etc (again if set years later)

-Kirks green season 2 wraparound tunic
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc108/ADMBAXTER/TOS%20pics/Kirkfashionpose.jpg

-more vicious Trek III style Klingons again (like VI had them as villains for 25th ann)

-Twilight Zone/Outer Limits/early TOS style eeriness/horror

-unexplained wonder/unknown – questions and mcguffins that are not answered and are left to the imagination which is far more powerful than any explanation the film maker can give (I like the fact Khans backstory was vaguely described/left unexplained in STID – the brig scene was kind of similar to the Khan/Chekov scene on Ceti Alpha V in TWOK – ‘on earth..200 years ago…I was a prince with power of millions..’)

-more references to the prime timeline/alternate future for the 50th anniversary – maybe a ‘Days of Futures Past/Yesterdays Ent’ type story involving alternate realities, prime timeline links etc (maybe involving TNG and or Shat Kirk)

-the borg (maybe something to do with them if above.) FC will be 20 years old in 2016

-Nero (what happened to him and the remains of the Narada when they went through the black hole – did he end up back in the future? The past? The delta quadrant? – see borg above again. maybe Nero could be like the Ras Al Guld of the Trek trilogy – haunting Kirk)

-various Trek stuff cameoing/referenced/easter egging – e.g. Talosions, Doomsday machine, gorns, cloud killer, Guardian of Forever, corbomite, tholians, wild west, rand, No 1, Nurse Chapel (finally), Capt Terrel, Kruge, Matt Decker (Stephen Collins?), Ilia, Savvik, Sybok, Admiral Archer, Botany Bay/Khan(again), Reliant/Excelsior, Patrick Stewart and the next gen (see points above), Vger (somehow linked to the borg? see points above)

-TMP style transporter malfunctions (with gory aftermath)

-TWOK style nebulas (hiding/battling in)

-more federation starship vs. federation starship carnage

-big name cameos/supporting roles? – e.g. some big shot Starfleet Admiral dishing out orders to Kirk at some point just like in TOS (Harrison Ford? Hanks?)

-dark perma haired Kirk:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7vjDE3ZM2SA/TGGK2Fu-3tI/AAAAAAAAANw/TIfaidmDOYQ/s1600/ShatCurly.jpg

-more Bones

-Spock Prime (on phone-a-Spock help out duty again – esp if its the borg)

-Shatner….id still like him there…if possible. maybe retro footage from some outtakes from previous Trek movies or little seen tv movies/TJ Hooker or even Shatner as he is now – Kirks grandpop? alternate reality future Kirk? aged up Pine Kirk Deadly Years style? (maybe the opening could be the end of The Deadly Years re-imagined with Shatner and Nimoy opening the movie fighting off the Romulans before they get de-aged back to Pine/Quinto)

-more redshirt deaths – im talking ‘Obsession’ levels

613. Khan 2.0 - August 10, 2013

oh crap double post :(

614. P Technobabble - August 10, 2013

I thought both movies were completely enjoyable but I did not offer reviews or answer any polls, so I think Basement Blogger’s point is legitimate. And I don’t think I’m the only piece of evidence.
I don’t think there’s been a single Trek film you could point to and not find something questionable about it. To single out the new films, picking on every little thing you think is wrong seems a bit narrow-minded. TSFS is still one of my favorites but I could rip that one to shreds if I really got down to it. I prefer to watch movies for enjoyment of the ride. I’m a movie-goer not a drama critic.

615. crazydaystrom - August 10, 2013

592. ObsessiveStarTrekFan
“I’m surprised it’s that close, given the inate human tendency to voice a complaint rather than praise…”
______

In my experience voicing praise is as common and apparently inate a tendency as voicing complaints. It just seems to be ‘trendy’ and ‘vogue’ these days to put down. I dunno. I wonder if expressing negatively is felt to appear more intelligent or considered. I guess more likely it’s connected to a general mailaise or perhaps depression where folks are unhappy within and therefore project that negativity outward and onto other things. There’s no question ‘darkness’ is trendy. Hopefully (pun intended) that trend will run it’s course soon.

616. dmduncan - August 10, 2013

Also looking forward to Europa Report which has gotten praise for the accuracy of its science.

@614. P. Technobabble: Good attitude to have, and I also love TSFS despite its flaws. Some of Star Trek’s best moments are in that film.

617. ironhyde - August 10, 2013

#608 – dswynne

Yes, I discussed this above. Good observation! That’s my hope for the movie..

618. crazydaystrom - August 10, 2013

512. MJ – August 9, 2013

“Given that Elysium is getting universally bad reviews, maybe we should call you crazy then? Lol”
_________

I’ve read and heard several reviews of Elysium now MJ. While few are stellar raves MOST were favorable. And most of the criticisms were that some feel the film is so politically ‘liberal’ as to be propaganda. One (presumably non-professional) poster on another board commenting on a favorable review even characterized the film as an attempt to brainwash. Ha! Maybe it was but I think not.

Anyway Elysium is not “getting universally bad reviews” from what I can see. Though admittedly the universe I a large place :-) And I still stand by every word of my post #508. My opinions of course.

And
527. Keachick -

“You have now given me a reason NOT to go see Elysium…:(”
__________

I can’t believe you would let I am not Herbert’s juvenile crassness cause you to not see a film you would perhaps otherwise see. You’re smarter than that, by all evidence. He can’t change your opinion of STID, can he?

619. MJ - August 10, 2013

Crazydaystrom, on Rotton Tomatoes, 66% of critics liked Elysium, while 87% liked STID. If fact, on all of the internet movie sites that cover critics reviews, STID has a higher rating than Elysium.

It is what it is.

And a 66% rating makes Elysium an “average” movie.

I’ll see it later this week, but my son saw it yesterday and confirmed what the teviews are saying – a great looking movie with some good ideas, but with a lack of the ability to bring off what they were trying to achieve.

620. K-7 - August 10, 2013

Saw Elysium. It was OK, but the “havenots” defeating the rich just seemed so used up for me. I was hoping for something more original from Blomkamp. Been there – done that.

In contrast, Trek Into Darkness’s social theme of the dangers of over-responding to terrorism and losing your values seemed more topical and meaningful.

621. Barney - August 10, 2013

Its so sad the JJ wont be returning , however it is no excuse for paramount to get a B rated director.

Paramount needs to get a director with the same popularity and critical acclaim that JJ has.

622. Adolescent Nightmare - August 10, 2013

Congratulation, boborci! I saw that your other summer movie is also getting a sequel.

Please continue to ignore the whiny old men. We would all have to go and live in the past if they got there way.

623. Curious Cadet - August 10, 2013

@618. crazydaystrom,
“Anyway Elysium is not “getting universally bad reviews” from what I can see.”

I agree with this. Its a gross overstatement and outright lie whoever said it. The “top” critics even rate it at 67 percent on RT. Besides I’ve been told it doesn’t matter what the ‘critics’ think as they are subject to ‘group think’ mentality and attempt to shut down movies audiences would otherwise enjoy. And the users on Rotten Tomatoes are giving it a 73. Hardly “universally bad reviews” no matter which group you survey.

624. Red Shirt Diaries - August 10, 2013

Just got back from Elysium. I was so looking forward to this movie, but man, what a letdown. Several people in my theater left halfway through, and by the end my buddy and I were actually rooting for Foster’s bunch on Elysium to win.

Epic Fail is the best way to describe Elysium.

And in the context of the great reviews for District 9, the critics are generally very disappointed with this film.

625. P Technobabble - August 10, 2013

616. dm
I agree, TSFS had some truly great Star Trek moments. And then the “other stuff.” We’ll have to compare notes sometime.

626. PaulB - August 10, 2013

#624 Red Shirt–Yeah, Elysium was a major waste. Jodie Foster is awful, with an accent straight out of 3rd-grade drama. Formulaic crap from start to end, and the space colony is both scientifically wrong (stupidly so) and completely wasted. The entire film could’ve taken place on Earth and NOTHING would need to be changed.

Bad film. I wanted to walk out, too, but I was determined to finish. What garbage.

627. Jai - August 10, 2013

Keachick, re: #524:

“What I am saying is that possibly the very process of lengthy cryostasis could have a sort of albino type effect on anyone, irrespective of their original colour/race/ethnicity or whatever.”

There is no “possibly” at all. It’s scientifically impossible for this to happen to non-white people. It’s like saying lengthy cryostasis could cause people to sprout reindeer antlers.

“The ability for a person’s genetic inheritance to be fully expressed is dependent on a number of factors, including the possibility/probability that low or no light levels for a couple of 100 years could impede normal expression of that person’s genetic inheritance.”

I’ve already explained this, but I’ll say it again as clearly as I can: THIS IS NEITHER POSSIBLE NOR PROBABLE. For non-white people, normal expression of their genetic inheritance — specifically their basal skin colour — is NOT impeded by low or no light levels.

It’s a medical, scientific fact that the expression of basal skin colour in non-white people is dependent on genetic inheritance. It makes no difference how long they’re subjected to low or no light levels. That’s not how it works.

Whether they go any *darker* than their basal skin colour *is* influenced by exposure to UV light, especially non-white people who are lighter shades of brown. But lack of exposure to UV light doesn’t cause them to fade beyond their basal skin colour. That’s…not…how…it…works.

“The reality is that we just don’t know.”

We *do* know. *You* may not know this, or you may not understand this, especially if you haven’t had any scientific education in this subject — or you didn’t understand it at the time — and you’re just reading Wikipedia, without even fully understanding those Wiki pages.

If Uhura was put in cryostasis for a couple of centuries, in complete darkness, she would not come out of it looking like Charlize Theron. Or with a pair of reindeer antlers growing from her head.

628. Curious Cadet - August 10, 2013

@458. Jai,
“Technically I was the first person to suggest all that on Trekmovie. Go and check the earliest threads after STID was released internationally. I actually wrote a couple of long comments about it, even mentioning that Harrison never actually said his name was “Khan Noonien Singh” and therefore wasn’t necessarily the same guy Prime Spock was talking about.”

I don’t know when you started posting about this, but I started discussing in the open thread on May 9th. The ideas were proposed by several on that thread, and I don’t recall seeing a post by you there. Regardless …

What I do know is that I was the first to propose the possibility to get Orci to comment on it. The link to that thread is below. Suffice it to say, Orci is very outspoken on this forum and does not hesitate to call people ‘idiots’, pull his punches, or speak his mind. The fact he both acknowledges and rationally responded that nothing in the film prevents a future filmmaker from making someone else the ‘real’ Khan, suggests the idea isn’t so far fetched.

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/17/sticky-into-darkness-open-weekend-thread/
See comments 23 & 26

Of course, as you point out, Orci has since made it abundantly clear that his intention was for John Harrison to be THE Khan. Still the movie is (intentionally?) ambiguous, in the same way ST09 was admittedly intentionally ambiguous about how time travel works, leaving it open for future filmmakers to reset the timeline if they wanted, and audiences to freely interpret any way they wanted.

It frankly doesn’t matter what Orci says the intent was, it only matters what appeared on film. And the film leaves this possibility wide open as confirmed by Orci. Whether it’s a good idea or not is another matter. But it certainly wouldn’t be a worse idea than wasting Khan’s appearance in STID.

629. Jai - August 10, 2013

DMDuncan:

I feel like Reza Aslan on Fox News. Know what I mean? ;)

I’ll add to your points in #519 (and a couple of other posts) about Space Seed/TWOK Khan’s obvious Indianness:

Khan was wearing a distinctive Indian outfit in one of his main scenes in Space Seed: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdvse7o79o1rhg5lso1_1280.png. It’s called a “sherwani”. Historically it was worn by the North Indian aristocracy. Nowadays many regular North Indians often wear sherwanis on special occasions like weddings. I personally own clothes like this.

Khan was wearing a traditional old-style Sikh turban in his first scene in TWOK.

Khan was lighter-skinned in TWOK than he was in Space Seed because Hollywood wouldn’t be able to get away with plastering Ricardo Montalban in brownface again in 1982.

“Occam’s Razor”, as MJ said. All the rest of the stuff being suggested here is just people tying themselves into pretzels to come up with pointless convoluted explanations.

630. crazydaystrom - August 10, 2013

619. MJ -
“It is what it is.”
__________

I cannot argue against that point.

624. Red Shirt Diaries
“Epic Fail is the best way to describe Elysium.

And in the context of the great reviews for District 9, the critics are generally very disappointed with this film.”

RSD, MJ says by Rotten Tomatoes measurements Elysium is average. You say ‘epic fail’. I say it satisfied me much more than STID. As I said upthread (or maybe it was another STID thread on this site) sincere opinions, even if diametrically opposed, are all true, as opinions go.

And RSD again I’ve read, seen and heard several reviews and yes they’re mixed but they’ve been nearly all generally favorable. Entertainment Weekly (which I’ll mention because I subscribe to it and have the latest copy right here) gives Elysium a ‘B+’ rating.

For me Elysium had all the enjoyment, if not more, and very little of the disappointment of the recent Trek film. And believe me, I wish the opposite were true.

631. crazydaystrom - August 10, 2013

623. Curious Cadet
“… doesn’t matter what the ‘critics’ think as they are subject to ‘group think’ mentality…”
_________

That seems to be the case in a lot of arenas anymore. I guess it’s true what they say “There’s safety in numbers.”

632. Mitchell - August 10, 2013

As long as bad robot and the usual dopes from there remain involved Star Trek will continue to die. Painfully and slowly.

633. Keachick - August 10, 2013

#632 – Ever heard of Karma? In other words, one goes around may just come around. IMHO, it is immoral to suggest as you have.

Perhaps some have seen this before, but I have only just watched it. These nuTrek actors are great – it is obvious that having to be on stage in front of a live audience and not messing up lines etc (CP and ZQ…) can’t help but play a part in how good the actors are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J-v9u42h_k&feature=youtu.be

634. spooky - August 10, 2013

Hmmm… I haven’t seen the most recent movie but I already have some interesting submissions for the producers/writers, etc.

To the writers: I submit some of these ideas!!!
01.
Star Trek 2009: Use the idea that the red matter that destroyed Nero’s ship somehow changed this Nu-Verse… It somehow went to several realities intact, opening and closing doors to other realms, realities and brought in and kicked out certain events resulting in some species having evolved, devolved or happenings taking place or not! The red matter should have a consequence to the universe for its use, an allegory to meddling with the universe…

02.
I want to see Tholians but not just one variety, Several races or factions of them, not necessarily as villains either.
Or there could be a distress signal from one dominant faction who requires the Federations help on a rogue faction, fanatical race of tholians or two… I imagine this dominant type would be very regal, royalty type. While one faction would be fanatical crazy (al qaeda), etc. :)

03.
The crystalline entity, or a version of it. Perhaps It was pulled by a red matter blackhole/wormhole from a different time period and pulled into the past of this NuVerse. Perhaps one faction of the Tholians knew about it and worhipped it… using it as a weapon against the others and the galaxy!

04.
Gorn… the gorn need to make a big showing in the movies! This nuTrek has the means to make any type of alien species believable and an worthwhile antagonist!

05.
Klingons… I know everyone wants to see Klingons but for crying out loud, we’ve had several movies with them, several series with them in it… please KILL THEM ALL already. Maybe the Crystalline entity will pay them a visit first. Gobble gobble!

06.
Some cool sciency stuff.
How about those Tholians I spoke about. During their history several Tholians broke off from the main Sodality and veered off into charts unknown. One of these species settled on a planet in a dangerous part of space, perhaps a Pulsar planetary, wherein they found a sleeping monster! The crystalline entity who somehow was brought into the past some billion years ago, it devoured the planetary system and ended up sleeping in the molten core of one of the planetoids.

07.
Villainy schemes:
If we’re going with villainy tactics, go big or go home!
How about a big bad somehow acquires the capability of turn a dying star into a deadly megnetar and causing it to repel or move across space. This could probably work for a binary star system one of the stars being a dominant star feeding off the other, accreting its solar material, since they are spinning the one being launched somehow becomes a magnetar but directed by the villain. Too similar to Generations perhaps, sure the science is a bit silly but let’s see them black holes from 2009 explain themselves! :D

635. dmduncan - August 10, 2013

@629. Jai:

Hey thanks for that photo. Yet more evidence of the producers’ intent that gets overlooked.

Another curious thing is the hairstyle they put on Montalban. That looks like a wig and although the hair has been cut at the back, the hair from the side of his head seems just as long as the rest of it and ends up in the same pony tail, which gives the impression that, although it has been cut off at the end, it was left to grow long before that.

636. Spock's Bangs - August 10, 2013

#632. “As long as bad robot and the usual dopes from there remain involved Star Trek will continue to die. Painfully and slowly.”

Thats crazy talk! Trek died years ago when Nemesis barely made
67 million or so dollars worldwide. Into Darkness pulled in 451 million worldwide…put that in your pipe and smoke it! Star Trek Lives baby!!

637. dmduncan - August 10, 2013

632. Mitchell – August 10, 2013

As long as bad robot and the usual dopes from there remain involved Star Trek will continue to die. Painfully and slowly.

***

I disagree. A painful slow death is what happened from Generations to Nemesis.

This is what a rebirth looks like.

638. Curious Cadet - August 10, 2013

@635. dmduncan,
” the hair from the side of his head seems just as long as the rest of it and ends up in the same pony tail, which gives the impression that, although it has been cut off at the end, it was left to grow long before that.”

Not likely, though anything’s possible. I have not seen a picture of Ontalban during this period where his hair was ever anything but conservative. It actually makes more sense when you consider Shatner is wearing a wig in every episode of TOS. The nature of Hollywood wigs is that the new hairline is part of an appliance that is spirit gummed to the forehead, and then covered by makeup, of which Montalban was wearing plenty to conceal it. Soit literally could be, and likely is a skull cap fitted around his entire head and glued on at the edges.

So yet again they went out of their way to give him this appearance rather than going with Montalban’s normal hair … an appearance closely associated with Sikhism.

639. dmduncan - August 10, 2013

638. Curious Cadet – August 10, 2013

Well I think you’re saying the same thing. That’s got to be a long haired wig they put on him in addition to browning up his skin. They did all that to create the Sikh character he was supposed to be.

640. Barney Fife - August 10, 2013

632. Mitchell
The usual dopes have been involved in movies that have made close to 4 BILLION dollars at the box office. Those are the facts that you can’t ignore. It’s OK to not like new Trek but this old timer is extremely happy with this fresh new take on the Trek universe. I’m excited that there is increased interest worldwide with this Star Trek universe. I believe this will lead to more features along with a new live action TV series. Most people are excited about that and I would be happy to have K/O lead the efforts. You can enjoy the fan fiction that is out there now….it’s the old-school style of story telling. I’m not necessarily knocking that but it’s obvious that style of Trek can only make it in the form of fan fiction. The general public would be bored with it. It’s all about TV ratings and box office results. K/O and BR have a solid record and that’s what counts.

641. Navy - August 10, 2013

@Bob Orci

Also, I wanted to add.

Please don’t go anywhere near the TMP/Refit Enterprise. She is already perfect.

642. Basement Blogger - August 10, 2013

@ 629

Jai says,

“All the rest of the stuff being suggested here is just people tying themselves into pretzels to come up with pointless convoluted explanations.”

Not true. If you read my post at 515, I examine the Star Trek canon to see if it’s possible to cast Cumberbatcch as Khan. To summarize there is nothing in the canon that MANDATES Khan must be Indian Sikh. Yes, there is Lt. McGiver’s comments but she’s not sure.

“From the northern India area, I GUESS… PROBABLY a Sikh.”

Guessing and the word “probably” are not mandates.

You can’t point out anything regarding Khan’s parents. That’s because we don’t know anything about them from the canon. If they were both Indian then you are correct. Khan must be Indian of the Sikh religion. However, we don’t know anything about Khan’s parents. Regarding his dress, Khan can dress in a Japanese kimono that doesn’t make him a geisha girl. To be racially an Indian, he must have Indian parents.

But let’s again look at the canon, shall we? Star TreK: Enterprise. Episodes Borderlands, and Cold Station 12. Season 4, Episodes 80 and 81. We find out that the super humans are genetically engineered and grown out of test tubes so to speak. There is nothing in the canon that Khan was created to be a racial Indian or Sikh. Again NO MANDATE that he be racially Indian since it’s not in the canon. So whoever created Khan could make him a Caucasian and name him whatever he wanted to be. My first name is Bernie. Sounds like a Jewish accountant. But in reality I’m a Chinese American.

There are much worse examples of whitewashing in Hollywood for you tb be bothered with. And it’s not because I’m racially Chinese that I point these out. The Last Airbender (2010) using Caucasian leads in an Asian story. This is even worse than that. The announcement of Akira being done live action with a Caucasian actor. Absolutely terrible whitewashing. Link. Regardless, Khan is a bad guy. There are many real Sikhs you can be proud of. For example, South Carolina governor Nikki Haley is a Sikh. I’m looking at her racial and former religion not her current one.

Finally, your example of Reza Aslan on Fox News has no relevance with me. Fox News has a right-wing conservative agenda supported by evangelicals. That was an embarrassing interview which was just a mugging of Aslan because he happened to be a Muslim and a religious scholar who wrote a book about Jesus. I don’t have an agenda to support Cumberbatch. I liked STID very much but was leery after the Star Trek light movie in 2009. I looked at the question and answered the question logically. Was there a mandate that Khan must be racially a Sikh Indian? And based on the evidence, the answer is no.

Terrible whitewashing. The casting of Garrett Hedlund, a Caucasian to play the lead in the Japanese science fiction story of Akira.
http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/akira/26734/live-action-akira-remake-back-on-the-cards

643. MikeB - August 10, 2013

So Bob, when do you start writing T3, and will you add a third hand?

644. Vultan - August 10, 2013

Remember the painting of Khan in McGivers quarters? He’s wearing a Sikh turban in the picture, and Khan seems quite impressed with it. Now don’t you think this would be a perfect opportunity for him to say, “Hey, nice painting, but I’m actually Mexican. And sometimes I’m British.” ;-)

The man was written (originally) as a Sikh. His depiction in STID is simply politically correct revisionism. Or as I like to call it, “retrogressive progressive casting.”

645. dmduncan - August 10, 2013

642. Basement Blogger – August 10, 2013

There’s no mandate for anything at all.

I don’t accept Enterprise as canon, so I don’t accept any arguments about what Khan is or isn’t based on Enterprise. So, for instance, if I was making Star Trek movies or TV shows, I would feel completely free to ignore the existence of what happened in Enterprise completely, and even now, when I don’t make such things, I still don’t accept Enterprise as relevant to what happened in TOS or STID, since TOS (not Enterprise) is what both ST.09 and STID are based on (the brief reference to Admiral Archer’s beagle in ST.09 being fully considered here).

And again, using that logic, you could argue that Scotty might be a transsexual because we never saw his birth or childhood as a boy.

I think the way you deal with such revisionism is not to treat these things like they have objective reality that it is possible to answer questions about objectively, but to answer these questions based on what the intent was by the producers and what has been accepted based on that intent.

Khan Noonien Singh (Singh is a SIKH name) is a Sikh. That is what the evidence shows was the intent of those who created him EVEN IF the dialogue as written implies rather than states absolutely that he was Sikh. When Marla McGivers—the expert Kirk called on—identifies him as probably being Sikh, she is stating that the weight of the evidence she is aware of leads her to make that conclusion.

Now…you can argue against her expert authority…but then you’re arguing with the authority of a fictional character in a fictional universe!!!

She’s saying Khan is (probably) a Sikh (and by the way, she doesn’t KNOW his name is Singh (a Sikh name) at this point, so that when they DISCOVER his name later on, that tends to confirm the correctness of her earlier probabilistic conclusion regarding his identity) because that’s the producers/writers way of identifying him to the audience.

I mean, imagine if she had stated unequivocally that he was a Sikh from Northern India. How could she possibly KNOW that based on the brief experience she obviously had in that scene? Science is a broad field of probabilistic conclusions and it would be unbelievable to me personally and, I’m sure, to many others for Marla McGivers to come to an absolute conclusion regarding SINGH’s identity in that scene based on what was known at that point (and I will remind people again that the later discovery of his name—SINGH—is the producers’/writer’s way of confirming McGivers’ early tentative conclusions).

Sure you can rewrite it any way you want. That’s always possible. It’s even possible to end the Star Trek movies with the surprise reveal that ALL of TOS, and indeed all of Star Trek, takes place as a dream one night in the head of Dr. Stephen Hawking!

Khan is a Sikh, because that is what was established by both the evidence and the intent, regardless that it was not established through absolute statements, and that is what has been accepted, much the same way that Scotty has been established and accepted as a male.

And that’s true even if you can find creative ways to escape to your own satisfaction what was established and accepted.

In other words, you may be able to de-establish it to your mind, but you can’t de-establish it to mine, because you can’t revise now the clear intent of the producers back then in creating Khan.

And that is precisely why the casting choice of Cumberbatch is getting so much criticism.

Saying Cumber-Khan came out of a test tube and has no race ignores the role portrayed by Montalban with the long black hair and painted-on brown skin.

That is the crux of the problem. It’s not what Cumberbatch is, but what he is not and should have been that makes him hard to accept as the same character played by Montalban.

646. dmduncan - August 10, 2013

644. Vultan – August 10, 2013

Funny. And I agree.

The issue is not what Enterprise says about augments. It is about how a man who looks like Cumberbatch plays the same character that they painted and wigged up Montalban to play.

647. Target Audience - August 10, 2013

After watching the first two I find little appetite for a third.

648. Vultan - August 10, 2013

#646

Yep.

I think if TOS were made today, they would get an Indian actor to play Khan… because there’s a lot of Indian actors working today. But name an Indian/Sikh actor who worked in ’60s television…

Have to give Iron Man 3 some credit. While I don’t think it was a great movie, at least they did get someone with Indian heritage (Ben Kingsley, real name Krishna Pandit Bhanji) to play their “primary” bad guy.

649. Vultan - August 10, 2013

’60s American television.

650. Marja - August 10, 2013

550. rtrj to 543. I am not Herbert who had said …
“if you are an ignorant, hateful, greedy Republi-c*nt”,

Why is it that “Open Minded” Liber-als resort to name calling and are so bigoted against anyone who disagrees with them? Let’s cut the political Crap and discuss Star Trek.

Ahem, sir, “Herbert” does not sound open-minded in any way, and I disavow his sort of “liberalism”.

651. Buzz Cagney - August 10, 2013

#644 I just call it racist nonsense mate.
I really worry that we have such muddle headed thinkers running things in movie land.
If Orci had just said they cast Cumberbatch because they considered him a good actor then i’d have been less concerned. But when Orci spouts that stuff about not wanting to be racist I’m afraid I just roll my eyes.

652. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

Khan 2.0
Pretty obvious that Nero was killed when the Narada was destroyed from within due to the redmatter exploding in the middle of the ship upon the Jellyfish crashing into it.

653. Disinvited - August 11, 2013

#639. dmduncan – August 10, 2013

And yet that Khan remained clean-shaved throughout even in Spock’s archival photo does raise some doubts as to how accurate a Sikh representation the character was ever meant to be or McGivers’ assessment of him for that matter.

654. Disinvited - August 11, 2013

#651. I am to Smurfy – August 11, 2013

Observers in the Prime Universe watching the two ships being consumed by a collapsing star would jump to the same obvious conclusion – but they’d be wrong.

655. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

653
Actually know because in that case the ships FLEW INTO the Blackhole.
in this instance the case of the Black hole at the end of 09, it forms FROM WITHIN the Narada. The ship besides suffering extreme damage from the enterprise blasting it with phasers on maxium, is crushed and destroyed.

I mean if what you said was true that would mean Vulcan wasn’t destroyed just merely sucked into an alternate universe.
Because the same thing that happened to Vulcan happened to the Narada.

Now if the Enterprise had been sucked into that black hole caused by the Jellyfish impact into the Narada, then yes the enterprise in theory could have been transported to another universe but the Narada was consumed by it and that is the difference.

656. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

653
Actually NO because in the case of the jellyfish and Narada at the start of the movie the ships FLEW/Sucked INTO the Blackhole.
in this instance the case of the Black hole at the end of 09, it forms FROM WITHIN the Narada. The ship besides suffering extreme damage from the enterprise blasting it with phasers on maxium, is crushed and destroyed.

I mean if what you said was true that would mean Vulcan wasn’t destroyed just merely sucked into an alternate universe.
Because the same thing that happened to Vulcan happened to the Narada.

Now if the Enterprise had been sucked into that black hole caused by the Jellyfish impact into the Narada, then yes the enterprise in theory could have been transported to another universe but the Narada was consumed by it and that is the difference.

657. Disinvited - August 11, 2013

#655. I am to Smurfy – August 11, 2013

Actually, the problem you are having is thinking I was equating the mechanisms when I was only commenting the obviousness of the implied demise.

658. Disinvited - August 11, 2013

#656. Disinvited – August 11, 2013

Besides, isn’t it a little disingenuous to argue the absolute demise of anyone or anything in Trek which has always found “possibilities” for not resigning oneself to the inevitability of some outcome?

I mean this is the same franchise that floated this:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NklPAAAAIBAJ&pg=5403,3017410

“According to Paramount President Michael Eisner, there even may be a future movie [after TSFS] about the fate of Khan…”

659. Captain Braxton - August 11, 2013

Bryan Singer gets my vote, a Trek fan & shows the relationship side of things not just the action.

660. roy - August 11, 2013

@218, Without some sort of action/adventure, Star Trek wont have wide audience. If that’s what you want, then the new audience that has been watching Star Trek on the big screen will wane. If that’s what you want to see, then good luck. Incidently you mentioned seeing Star Wars, look how much money that film franchise has made since 1977

661. Aurore - August 11, 2013

Earlier, I said that I would be quiet on the question.

I’ve changed my mind.

Casting Mr. Cumberbatch to play Khan Noonien Singh was a racist decision.

In the past, and, more recently, changing the race/ethnicity of an “ethnic” character in the source material, was considered racist when other productions had made that type of choice.

Therefore, my beloved franchise cannot get a pass from me if, for “fear of offending my sensibilities”, people in charge take similar decisions.

And, if Mr. Orci ( or anyone else involved in the making of the sequel ) had stated that they had hired Mr. Cumberbatch because in 2012/2013 only he could portray a character originally conceived as a North Indian man, probably a Sikh, I might have been able to accept the choice….

….Had Indian/South Asian actors been given a chance to, at least, compete for the role, as well.

I think that a role should always go to the best actor…no matter their nationality…

662. Mad Mann - August 11, 2013

RE: What the next movie should be about:

I’ll throw in:

–Tie in to the 2009 movie in some way, book-end the trilogy. Maybe have something to do with use of Red Matter on the Narada affected space-time yadda, yadda, yadda, Kirk and crew have to save the entire universe. This would involve Enterprise actually “going where no one has gone before” into different dimensions, parts of the universe.
–To complicate things, the Klingon commander Kor is leading a battle squadron that get swept up in these intergalactic position shifting of the Enterprise. Kirk and crew have to fight them every step of the way
–Eventually the Klingons and Enterprise crew work together to stop the threat.

663. roy - August 11, 2013

@337. Sometimes the most successful Trek films have been where the director wanted to make the most non-trek film possible as Leonard Nimoy attemped to do with Star Trek IV and he succeeded both commercial and artistically. Bob, If it;s worth anything the two films that you worked on brought in a whole new audience that was lacking in previous years. keep doing what you’re doing as key is the box office numbers.

664. Captain Slow - August 11, 2013

I’m willing to bet that Kor will be involved. In the Countdown to Darkness comic, when the Enterprise escapes from Kor and one of his underlings reports it, he says “For now.” Obviously that’s not much to go on but then I don’t think many people paid attention to the Tribble comic where Kirk looks at the dead tribble and says “Any sign of a miraculous resurrection?” and that turned out to be of some importance.

665. Randall Williams - August 11, 2013

@boborci

I was wondering since your ST reboot starting with Star Trek 2009 is
based on the original series, if you are obligated to use old source
material from TOS in your movies so that it has the Star Trek
“look and feel” without necessarily being Trek? In other words, you
put in 1960s Trek material as a necessity?

Trying to be helpful: new race, new situation we have not seen the
series face before, and a inspiring ending which will actually make
people THINK about for some time after seeing the film.

And have a strong A-list actor which will help to draw in the crowds
and help to boost the story as well as the Box Office scores.

666. rfk - August 11, 2013

637. dmduncan – August 10, 2013

Rebirth in a Pet Sematary kind of way, perhaps.

I really was expecting Paramount to totally clean house for ST2016 (ST50?). Perhaps that was my own wishful thinking. I guess the biz case for staying the course proved stronger than taking a risk and going for something smarter/deeper/better.

Oh well.

667. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

652. Disinvited – August 11, 2013
#639. dmduncan – August 10, 2013

And yet that Khan remained clean-shaved throughout even in Spock’s archival photo does raise some doubts as to how accurate a Sikh representation the character was ever meant to be or McGivers’ assessment of him for that matter.

***

Only if you confuse the symbol for the thing it represents.

Khan was symbolically a Sikh, not ACTUALLY one, because Ricardo Montalban was playing a role in a television show. Symbols needn’t be identical in all their details to represent what they do represent, and this is why I talk about what the producers’/writer’s intent was.

When you get mired in discussions of deep layers of details as if these fictional elements had objective reality, you are forgetting that we’re talking about symbolic representations that can be more or less detailed, and within that range of possiblity some things will be accurate and some things will not be, both according to a variety of real world factors, including what the producers know, what they think is necessary to do to establish their intention, and what they think is not.

What really matters is that you have enough detail to get the right idea, which is the one they intend you to have, and not that it be so perfect that it save the person prone to obsessing over the details from himself, and missing the intention. (I just don’t recall any doubts emerging about Khan’s ethnicity before the casting discussions on this site, and given the effort the producers made to alter Montalban’s appearance for the role of Khan, those doubts don’t make sense for me to entertain just so I can convince myself Cumberbatch is a good fit for the same role.)

To put it another way: In Spectre of the Gun, it was only necessary to recreate the facades of the old west town to get the point across to Kirk and Company what parts they all had to play there.

668. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

Mistaking symbol for reality can trap you in a recursive loop of obsessive compulsive Star Trek analysis.

669. Red Dead Ryan - August 11, 2013

Skin color aside, the writers should have at least acknowledged Khan’s Sikh background, e.g, a holographic photo brought up in a brief discussion between the two Spocks, or between the crew after John Harrison reveals his true identity.

Even his change in skin color could have been explained with the idea of Admiral Marcus hiring a plastic surgeon to alter Khan’s appearance to hide his identity, or for the simple fact that Marcus could have been a racist.

I actually thought that Benedict Cumberbatch was excellent, but the character’s development was hurt by a lack of backstory. Simply mentioning the fact he’s over 300 years old doesn’t work, because Khan’s skin color is far different than it was in “Space Seed”. So obviously something had to happen between his being discovered by Marcus and the events of STID. Unfortunately, J.J Abrams’ obession with secrecy also prevented any “Countdown” comic explanations or depictions of the changes made to Khan’s appearance.

I didn’t have a problem with a “white” Khan, but there should have been an in-movie explanation for it.

Bob’s politically correct answer just doesn’t cut it.

670. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

667. Red Dead Ryan – August 11, 2013

I didn’t have a problem with a “white” Khan, but there should have been an in-movie explanation for it.

***

There’s no “in-movie” explanation for it because the explanation for why it happened is literally not in the movie.

I don’t know what happened behind the scenes obviously, but maybe it was a case where those who knew better made a smart business decision. Get on board to stay on board. Just plain old strategy. You can’t have an influence on the bridge if you get left behind on the shore.

Alternatively, the casting decision could also be an instance of groupthink. Even when you are aware of it and hate it, you can still get blindsided and caught up in it.

671. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

I do know this: Had they got Demian Bichir, this conversation would not be happening because the man does resemble Ricardo Montalban. If your aim was to follow Montalban’s Khan rather than recast the role with a Punjab actor, then you may not be able to get better than Bichir for that role. And had he been cast I think the conversation now would be about how they followed up their excellence in casting from the first movie with more of the same in STID.

672. Red Dead Ryan - August 11, 2013

On another note, I’m struggling to grasp how Paramount supposedly still hasn’t broken even on STID. The movie cost a reported $190 million, and has so far made over $450 million. Something doesn’t add up if STID is in the red, unless the movie cost significantly more than reported, with hidden expenses we don’t know about.

Marketing costs are usually excluded, and those are recouped through dvd and Blu Ray sales anyway.

So I’m not sure what is going on here, apart from the obvious significant drop in domestic revenues in North America.

Right now, the director of “GI Joe: Retaliation” is the favorite for the next Trek movie. That speaks volumes about Paramount’s current mindset.

I’m hoping for Rupert Wyatt, but somehow I think Paramount wants to go with someone who is relatively cheap compared to the alternatives, and someone who will tow the company line and “obey the master”.

673. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

No idea what Rupert Wyatt’s price is, but he’s not exactly a big name either right now.

But Chu is like a cheap knockoff of JJ Abrams.

No pun intended.

And I don’t want to hammer the guy because if he’s intelligent and he’s given good material, it is imaginable that he could still turn out a great movie.

But based on what they’ve each done, I feel much more secure with Wyatt.

674. Red Dead Ryan - August 11, 2013

I can’t say I have seen much of Chu’s work, but so far, there’s nothing that really makes me want to. The “Step Up” movies don’t interest me, Justin Bieber doesn’t, and I think I’ll wait for “GI Joe Retaliation” to air on tv. I saw the first “GI Joe”, and it was merely okay, and the sequel, based on what I have read and heard about it, sounds like more of the same.

Rupert Wyatt, on the other hand, took a cheesy sixties movie property and improved upon it with his own “Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes”.

But even he doesn’t have a lot on his resume. So there’s the chance he might end up as a “one-hit wonder”.

At least J.J Abrams had a fair amount of notable tv experience and some movie credits when he signed on for “Star Trek” six years ago.

I’d love to see Christopher Nolan, but he’s busy with his own sci-fi movie, “Interstellar”. Steven Spielberg doesn’t direct sci-fi anymore, James Cameron is doing the “Avatar” sequels, and they’re all probably too expensive for Paramount’s tastes anyway.

675. Dswynne - August 11, 2013

Here is a suggestion: why not make the Romulans the main allies of the Federation in NuTrek-verse, mirroring the alliance between the Klingons and the Federation in PrimeTrek-verse? More stories can be developed that way.

676. Bass Master 22 - August 11, 2013

Nooooooo!!! Get rid of these writers! They don’t get it, haven’t gotten it and won’t be getting it. Into Darkness is rated least favorite of all Trek movies by fans in most polls.

Let’s get rid of the whole alternate universe mistake. I would rather have no movie than another one from this timeline.

677. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

@ 672. Red Dead Ryan – August 11, 2013

“I can’t say I have seen much of Chu’s work, but so far, there’s nothing that really makes me want to.”

Agreed. They should kept that guy far away from Star Trek.

“Rupert Wyatt, on the other hand, took a cheesy sixties movie property and improved upon it with his own “Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes”.”

The original “Planet of the Apes” is hardly a cheesy movie. Along with “2001: A Space Odyssey” which was released in the same year 1968, they are true classic sci-fi movies.

678. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

Wow Red Dead you couldn’t be farther from the truth. the original planet of the apes is far from a “CHEESY” movie property.
The movies social commentary is just as relevant and powerful today as it was 45 years ago. Rod Serling and Michael Wilson’s screen play was very socially relevant at the time and just as much today.
I seriously doubt 45 years from now Into Darkness will be held in the same regard.

“Rupert Wyatt, on the other hand, took a cheesy sixties movie property and improved upon it with his own “Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes”.

679. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

Furthermore even the sequels tell a very relevant social commentary.

680. Curious Cadet - August 11, 2013

@668. dmduncan,
“There’s no “in-movie” explanation for it because the explanation for why it happened is literally not in the movie.”

The lack of explanation for Khan’s appearance change from Space Seed is not in the movie because it is 100 percent irrelevant to the plot of the movie. The only people who would benefit from this explanation are the fans who know what Khan is supposed to look like. But throwing it in just for the fans is unnecessary for story and general audiences, and would have merely compounded the mistake they made by turning Harrison into Khan in the first place.

However, you are correct, there is no explanation for it in the movie in any event, because the reason has nothing to do with fictional events in the story. This is the reason why there will likely never be an explanation for it, including in the forthcoming IDW comic, primarily because any explanation will undermine the entire reason Orci insisted on it in the first place. Literally whitewashing the character when it’s wholly unnecessary, merely to reconcile onscreen appearances just makes the problem worse.

Bottom line: Khan looks like Benedict Cumberbatch now, and always has in Abrams’ canon. Fans will need to get over it.

681. Red Dead Ryan - August 11, 2013

#274.

“The original “Planet of the Apes” is hardly a cheesy movie. Along with “2001: A Space Odyssey” which was released in the same year 1968, they are true classic sci-fi movies.”

Well, I have to disagree. “2001: A Space Odyssey” has held up a lot better than “Planet Of The Apes”, which, while by no means a bad movie, just doesn’t compare to “2001″. The “Apes” sequels kept getting worse.

“Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes” is the best of all the “Apes” movies, at least for me.

I’m also not a big Charlton Heston fan.

682. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

@ 676. Red Dead Ryan – August 11, 2013

“Well, I have to disagree. “2001: A Space Odyssey” has held up a lot better than “Planet Of The Apes”, which, while by no means a bad movie, just doesn’t compare to “2001″. The “Apes” sequels kept getting worse.

“Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes” is the best of all the “Apes” movies, at least for me.
I’m also not a big Charlton Heston fan.”

It is true that POTA sequels were not good at all, comparing to the original movie which IMHO is still one of the best sci-fi movie that was made.

“Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes” was a pleasant surprise. I was thinking that it going to be another dumb movie like that Tim Burton rubbish remake. But it was far better than all the POTA movies, except for the original movie.

“I’m also not a big Charlton Heston fan.”

lol, me neither. But he was in 3 classic sci-fi movies, “Planet of the Apes”, “Soylent Green” & “The Omega Man”.

683. Bone Ranger - August 11, 2013

Man, looking at Bob Orci’s attitude in here – nothing would make me laugh harder than if he lost his job. Too bad it won’t happen, but that’s inertia for you.

684. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

675. Curious Cadet – August 11, 2013

The lack of explanation for Khan’s appearance change from Space Seed is not in the movie because it is 100 percent irrelevant to the plot of the movie. The only people who would benefit from this explanation are the fans who know what Khan is supposed to look like. But throwing it in just for the fans is unnecessary for story and general audiences, and would have merely compounded the mistake they made by turning Harrison into Khan in the first place.

***

Oh come on. What are we fans? A leper colony? You might have a point if Bob didn’t come here and bother to explain their decisions and interact with fans.

A flashback scene of the sort I thought they might do would have added greater detail and potentially made it more satisfying for all viewers had it been done right, and that would have been a good place to explain his obvious appearance change. In other words, had his original appearance been shown in the flashback, then the change in appearance would definitely have been relevant to the story, and the entire thing could have been done just as quickly as the mind-meld sequence in ST.09. It all could’ve happened in a flash.

685. Red Dead Ryan - August 11, 2013

#678.

“A flashback scene of the sort I thought they might do would have added greater detail and potentially made it more satisfying for all viewers had it been done right, and that would have been a good place to explain his obvious appearance change. In other words, had his original appearance been shown in the flashback, then the change in appearance would definitely have been relevant to the story, and the entire thing could have been done just as quickly as the mind-meld sequence in ST.09. It all could’ve happened in a flash.”

Yup!

686. Disinvited - August 11, 2013

#645. dmduncan – August 10, 2013

Speaking of dreams, I often entertain the notion that for the series LOST IN SPACE, when Major West tosses Dr. Smith into the deep freeze just prior to the first season crash, the Robot is logically incapable of interpreting Smith as being in a state of distress from a perfectly functional suspended animation unit and never deactivates it. Thus, the rest of the series is just Smith’s wild suspended animation induced dreams. ;-)

687. Basement Blogger - August 11, 2013

@ 645

Dmduncan says,”I don’t accept Enterprise as canon, so I don’t accept any arguments about what Khan is or isn’t based on Enterprise.”

That’s your choice but according to the rules, filmed Star Trek is canon. Bob Orci may have modified by saying his comic books are canon but nothing has changed with filmed Star Trek. It’s officially canon. So the events in Star Trek: Enterprise are canon whether you like it or not.

I’m not going to deny that a case can be made that Khan is a northern Indian male. But the question was when they considered Cumberbatch, “Could Khan be a white man?” If we knew that Khan’s parents were northern Indian then Khan must be an Indian. We don’t know his parents, so the question is answered in the affirmative.

What’s in a name? You argue that the name Singh clearly mandates he’s racially an Indian. Again I can actually point out to my race. My first name is Bernie. Sounds like a Jewish accountant. But actually I’m a Chinese American man. Let’s look at my nephew. His last name is Wong. You would guess Chinese. Part right. He’s half Chinese and half German American. If he has child with a Caucasian woman, there’s a good chance that child will be white. The last name will stay. So you can’t assume that the child would be Asian. I’ve actually met a white man who had the last name of Wong. The reason why he’s white is because over time, all of the Asian characteristics had been bred out.

You then argue my logic is flawed,

“And again, using that logic, you could argue that Scotty might be a transsexual because we never saw his birth or childhood as a boy.”

My logic is sound. If Bob Orci wanted to make Scotty a transsexual, he could. Nothing in the canon would stop it. Of course, that would make Scotty a woman trapped in a man’s body. Thereby Scotty’s love for women would make him a lesbian. (Lights of Zetar) or maybe a heterosexual male. Oh, this is so confusing. :-)

@ 660

Aurore,

Good to hear from you. I think we should express our displeasure with Hollywood whitewashing to future productions. There is no consensus on whether Khan could be a white male.

Casting Garret Hedlund in the Japanese sci-fi Akira is whitewashing. George Takei wants Asian actors cast. Link below. I agree. If they use Japanese names and Tokyo, it would be ludicrous to have white people cast as Japanese characters.
tT
http://www.advocate.com/news/news-features/2011/04/18/takei-wb-do-right-thing

688. I am to smurfy - August 11, 2013

Red Dead stand by what I said you couldn’t be further from the truth in your description of Planet of the Apes.

The movie has held up really well over 45 years. Just watched a beautiful 35 mm film print that came directly from Fox’s archives last month and it looked amazing from the visuals to the performances and the story.
Rod Serling and Michael Wilsons script run rings around Into Darkness in telling a story that is socially relevant to the times, you wont see Into Darkness being lauded the same way decades from now.

689. I am to smurfy - August 11, 2013

In fact Red Dead I challenge you point out how Planet of the Apes has not held up over the years in telling a story that is topical and relevant?

690. Aurore - August 11, 2013

“….Bottom line: Khan looks like Benedict Cumberbatch now, and always has in Abrams’ canon. Fans will need to get over it.”
_________

Khan looks like Benedict Cumberbatch, now.

It is a fact. And, I can’t change that fact. But, I will never get over it.

I don’t have to. Besides, it’s not necessary either. On the contrary .

For, what has occurred underlines the fact that an episode I never really liked ( Space Seed ) from The Original Series might be more relevant, in a way, than a Star Trek movie today.

However, for me, there is no irony whatsoever in that very fact since I always thought that this old show was unique, and, different, anyway.

That said, I’m still looking forward to the future of course ; I could be pleasantly surprised…

691. Curious Cadet - August 11, 2013

@684. dmduncan,
“You might have a point if Bob didn’t come here and bother to explain their decisions and interact with fans.”

I don’t follow.

First you say there is no canon explanation possible in the film, presumably because the decision had nothing to do with the character — i.e. it was an ethical decision by Orci.

Then you say Orci comes here to explain their decisions to the fans, but he has not so far as I know offered any ‘in-universe’ canon explanation.

Then you start proposing “what-ifs”.

But “what ifs” weren’t in the film. From my perspective, in the film I saw, including an explanation for why Khan doesn’t look like the character did in Space Seed is completely irrelevant to anything in the movie. There’s no need to show it, because it doesn’t change anything.

Now if you want to talk what-ifs, well I can do that too. But it can’t just be a random flashback sequence that shows Montalban turning into Cumberbatch without a reason no matter how quickly. How does that have any impact on the rest of the film, without requiring a tutorial on who Khan is — also completely unnecessary for the film I saw (which is why it should have never been Khan)? Back in May, I proposed the only explanation that solves a number of problems and actually has relevance to the film I saw — have Khan undergo a series of genetic tests and alterations by Marcus’ scientists to further enhance his abilities, resulting in his pigment change as well as the magic blood! So there’s a reason we need to know about his appearance change, it affects the end of the film since he is the only guy in the galaxy who can save Kirk.

But none of that is in the film. Indeed a lot of ideas have been presented here, some better than others, but most are irrelevant to the film produced, or introduce other pitfalls (including mine — why does Khan agree to voluntarily affect a Brittish accent?). So is the supposition here that Orci and the rest of the Supreme Court were incapable of coming up with an idea that is both germane to the film they produced, and reasonably plausible? Because otherwise, why wouldn’t Orci come here like he did with ST09 and explain the canon change to Khan’s appearance as he did with the alternate timeline? No need to put it explicitly in the film, but here it is …

My answer is, because of your original answer. Orci has stated enough things that make it clear why Khan is white, and changing it retroactively merely to satisfy the fans, does a disservice to the ethical dilemma that forced the decision in the first place. I would further propose that such an explanation is not presented in the film because it isn’t warented for the story they told, which lets them off the hook for making the decision in the first place. So I don’t really see Orci making any effort to further explain it in the future, much less make it official canon. As you say, he makes an effort to interact with the fans, yet he has made it abundantly clear Khan’s appearance is of absolutely no importance to the film.

You wrote earlier that you don’t consider Enterprise canon. Does that mean you hold Enterprise fans in contempt? I hope not. But Orci is doing the same thing here, and he presumably doesn’t agree with you and others about the importance of Khan’s appearance based on his statements. Maybe he will come around and change his mind, maybe he won’t. But one thing’s for sure, if he does it will weaken his ethical rationale — how could he possibly depict a dark-skinned character, in the Middle East no less, committing mass genocide and other criminal acts in the IDW comic, when doing so in the movies was repugnant? More kids will likely see that comic than saw the movie.

692. Keachick - August 11, 2013

It is just so sad how my comments on the possible effects of someone being in long term cryostasis has become so politicized.

The intensity and anger of some posters here in assuming that all is known about (human) biology, genetic inheritance and gene expression is also saddening.

If I had written that, after being kept locked up in the dark in cryostasis for a few hundred years, that the person emerging could look considerably darker than when they went in, would that have calmed some people’s sensibilities on the issue of skin colour? I wonder…

The truth is that longterm cryostasis could produce one of the three outcomes – 1) you come out looking much the same colour as you went in; 2) you come out looking very white or greyish and may remain that way for quite some time, if not always; Or 3) you come out looking darker than when you went in and remain looking pretty much that way.

NOBODY actually knows!

There is some fritzing out going on and I don’t think I am the one who is fritzing…:(

693. Aurore - August 11, 2013

@ 687. Basement Blogger – August 11, 2013
________

Hi, Bernie!
Good to hear from you too!

Thanks for the link.

…And, on a totally unrelated note, this is for you :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tnilh5_Mas

This too :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRqI5R6L7ow

694. boborci - August 11, 2013

683. Bone Ranger

my attitude? which part bothers you? was it when my invitations to tell me what you might wanna see in the next movie were met with derisive versions of “do your own work,” and I responded that I would. give me an example.

more likely u r just slightly surprised that sometimes, if i am in the mood, and someone tries to bite me,I respond.

695. Keachick - August 11, 2013

Bob Orci’s inadequate answer (and Bob – the answer is inadequate and does not “cut it”) could have something to do with the fact that he never intended John Harrison to be Khan, but got over-ruled by others in the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court should be feeling regret right now and Bob Orci feel a bit vindicated.

To have a white skinned John Harrison refer to himself as Khan was a stupid way to go, but it sure has touched on some sensitivities… and also allowed people to seek explanations for this conundrum for themselves, in the absence of anything of real sense forthcoming from the producers/writers or within the Star Trek Into Darkness story itself.

I think that JJ Abrams loved Benedict Cumberbatch’s audition and went with him, irrespective of any other considerations… Thing is – our cucumber patch did pretty good…:)

696. Barney Fife - August 11, 2013

694 boborci

Most people like your work. It seems like all the haters have gravitated to this site. Hopefully Anthony will be back soon to help moderate the website.
I bet these people wouldn’t say these things to your face! Cowards hide behind their anonymous logins.

697. Keachick - August 11, 2013

#683 – Bob Orci, apart from being one of Star Trek’s producers/writers, is also just another fellow poster. We should treat him as such – with the respect that we and others wanted to be treated.

698. Marja - August 11, 2013

Sorry this reply goes so far back; I was away from my regular computer and couldn’t post this yesterday.

477 Yanks, your words are in italics below.
“end the S/U relationship” – okay, professionally in TODAY’s military it’s not permitted for married couples or close-to-married couples to serve in the same chain of command. Many have pointed out that 200 years hence, there will probably be changes in such regulations [in fact Roddenberry himself said this] because the ships will be away from home for such long periods of time. When did Roddenbery say this? Are you sure he wasn’t referring to having families onboard star ships? (TOS & TNG) Families start with parents. Roddenberry also said this of romance, in the days of TOS: see “The Making of Star Trek” by Stephen E. Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry.
I understand that you don’t like the S/U relationship … Did you even read my post? I said I didn’t mind the relationship. But now it has to go. For reason you’ve stated … Yeah, I read your post (and it annoys me to be asked in this manner). “For reason [I’ve] stated” is a misrepresentation of my meaning. I said that the scene to which you objected should have taken place in private. So that scene, IMO, was badly placed. But now, in your opinion, the whole relationship “has to go” because of that. Let’s agree to disagree.
… and the fact that Uhura obviously can’t hande it. Wow, dang! And here I thought the only problem was that the writers made an awkward scene between Spock and Uhura.

479, Aly, your words are in italics below. At the risk of sounding like many others here, I have to say I keep looking for more McCoy and was hoping STID would deliver in exploring that iconic team. I was disappointed. I thought for sure that after all the praise Urban received and sheer number of people who begged for more of him we would see it. My number one request to Bob is to REALLY do that character and that trio justice. Not just a 2 min scene on the bridge.
To be fair, he had more than 2 minutes on the Bridge, he had minutes in Sickbay and on the surface with the torpedo but we did not get enough McCoy. I think we should see more of him and less of that overdone action.
I can see that he isn’t part of the ‘new’ trio (and god do I hate writing that) but I hope since these are early years, the real team [emphasis Marja’s] just hasn’t been formed yet. I keep seeing people comment that the new trio [emph mine] is ‘cooler’ and ‘modern’ without him *eyeroll*, and I know Urban isn’t as big a name as Pine or Saldana, but Bones is much, much too important to take a backseat.
I haven’t read any comment that said the “new trio is cooler and modern without McCoy.” I have read sarcastic references to this purported publicity stratagem, regarding Saldana’s appearance in the character posters and magazine articles.
I have personally written that I’d welcome a quartet; IMO the insistence on a “trio” is what’s old-fashioned, as if people are asking for a return to the Trek of the 60’s. I have also seen people [NOT you] say nasty things like, “put Uhura back on the switchboard where she belongs.”
The “either/or” regarding Uhura and McCoy is absurd to me. She appears on the posters and in the publicity because women are a large part of modern Trek’s audience. And yes, it’s cool to see a woman featured and active, at LAST. “The real team just hasn’t been formed yet” – that’s because this is an alternate universe, the team is younger, and the team that has formed so far is not the one you remember from TOS. I am hopeful it will truly be a quartet in the next film.

480. Aly, quoting 356 Yanks. “ ‘1. Please END the Spock/Uhura relationship. To allow this to continue is a slap in our characters’ face professionally. I have had no problem with it up until now, but I think STID gave ample reason to cut it off.’ ”
I have to say I agree. I was hesitant in ST09 when it came about, but I never gave it much thought or cared, but after STID I was like “ok this was a nice experiment, time to go now.
STiD gave an example of how cramming emotional moments into an action-packed script can disserve the characters. It was OOC for Spock and Uhura to have a private discussion in front of others.
I’m not a fan of this super emotional (for a Vulcan at least) Spock anyways. Just seeing him in a fight with a girlfriend felt so wrong to me. Both Kirk and Uhura yelling at him to feel more I was like Christ just let him be. Or have you guys forgotten what a Vulcan is?
What is a Vulcan? Hmmm. First, how the heck would Kirk know what Spock is “supposed” to be? He hasn’t worked with him long, and Spock is one of the very first Vulcans [if not THE first] to join Starfleet.
“Super emotional (for a Vulcan…) Spock ….” First, Spock is half-Vulcan. Second, it is pointed out in the first movie, by Sarek, that emotions run deep in the Vulcan race. Spock may still be trying to get hold of that model. He is young for a Vulcan, in the first three decades of what could be a 15-decade life. After the genocide, the “background [telepathic] voices” of all his fellow Vulcans on his home planet are gone. We do not know but perhaps these united “voices” help individual Vulcans maintain control of their emotions. This Spock has had a different life than TOS Spock. His planet and one parent have been ripped from him. He has little that is stable remaining in his life. He has lost the emotional “anchor” of his mother. He has lost the emotional anchor of his planet’s population. I believe that Uhura provides some stability in his life; this man has lost all “family” (including Admiral Pike) except his fellow officers on the Enterprise.
Obviously some people like it, if you want that kind of drama and think it adds an emotional layer thats fine, if thats what you’re looking for in your Spock. The romance adds nothing for me, and now its beginning to take away. But again, these are the early years. Spock is still learning and trying things out but with any luck he will become more like the Spock we love. I don’t want to see this relationship progress.
Yep, I like it. I think it does add an emotional layer. You will note that in all public situations (on the Bridge and in discussions with Kirk) Spock is the logical self we remember from TOS. Even at the scene of Pike’s death he seems thoroughly Vulcan in his aspect. It is only when driven to discuss things he would prefer to discuss privately that Spock speaks of his relationship with Uhura, and he does so in very Vulcan terms. Apparently you are hoping that Spock will grow out of wanting a female in his private life, that this thing with Uhura is just a phase. The Spock I love has progressed in this alternate timeline to “do [him]self a favor and do what feels right,” in the words of Elder Spock, who certainly knows what regrets he may carry after 125 [?] years of life.
And yes I also agree that people in Kirk and Spock position shouldn’t date the lower level.[emphasis mine] It just adds for unnecessary drama and a tense work environment, as this film clearly proved. I didn’t see the lovers spat and tension are cute or interesting in the least.
Okay, I think your choice of words “the lower level” is quite unfortunate; “junior officer” would be more appropriate, but if you aren’t former military you might not know that. There are other implications to “lower level” that could be drawn, but I’ll skip on down.
The “lover’s spat” and the tension were not meant to be “cute” (except perhaps Kirk’s scene with Uhura in the turbolift). They were an expression of what can happen between lovers when one is scared to death they will lose the other. I agree (again) that the script did not realize these in a manner I’d consider fitting (Uhura’s addressing Spock on the “shuttle” was inappropriate and OOC), but we just “had” to have two or three minutes’ more in breathless action sequences than to take a minute here or there for private interpersonal conversations and character development. I also disliked the “this won’t be a problem, will it, you two working together?” It damned well better not be a problem, because Spock and Uhura are professionals above all else when it comes to doing their duty. What they do in their private life should be off-limits to any but the camera and the audience, in private moments, and I don’t believe they would normally have a private discussion in a “public” venue. But, as you’ll recall from ST 2009, their passionate farewell before Spock blew up the Narada was public too. In both circumstances, death might have been imminent, so perhaps some of us can make exceptions. Others will wish for TOS, and that will simply be a point of disagreement between those people and me.

493. Yanks – No comments on the “Q” idea folks?
494. Phil – @ 493 No. Thank Q.
I’M WITH PHIL! I’d had enough of Q by the end of ST:TNG. The Klingons, too, if Mr Orci is reading this.

699. Other Guy - August 11, 2013

Bob. A FREE idea for the next Trek.

Have a great action movie where the end goal is to save Vulcan, and restore the timeline, but in the end, the only way to achieve the goal also means that that the events in the last two movies are erased and the time line is unaffected by Nero, Spock and the Red Matter.

Yes, you could even bring back Nero and Cumber-Khan if you like along the way, just so long as by the end of the movie you give us a final shot of our beloved constitution class Enterprise, with our beloved crew at their posts, on a mission to leave the galaxy for the 1st time.

700. Other Guy - August 11, 2013

696. Barney Fife – August 11, 2013

… Hopefully Anthony will be back soon to help moderate the website.

Are you sure you did not mean…

… Hopefully Anthony will be back soon to CENSOR the words of some fans on this website.

701. Barney Fife - August 11, 2013

No….NOT CENSOR….but to keep the conversation civilized. Is that asking for too much?

702. Marja - August 11, 2013

Re KHAN’S “IDENTITY CRISIS”

I really like Phil’s “Foreign Legion” idea of CumbyKhan using a false name.

All the guy on screen says is “I am Khan.”

Isn’t it possible that “Khan” is how each augment identifies him- or herself? And I know there’s been discussion on TM before about Khan concealing his true identity to protect the “real” Khan. But at no time in STiD does Khan self-identify as Khan Noonien Singh. Only Elder Spock mentions Khan Noonien Singh and how powerful an opponent he was.

Apparently the writers, in interviews, have indicated that on-screen “Khan” really is Khan Noonien Singh, to which I sigh and say, “too bad,” followed quickly by “I hope we don’t see him again.”

703. Barney Fife - August 11, 2013

Unscientific poll on Trekweb:

Is INTO DARKNESS better than STAR TREK (2009)?
Yes! 52.72 % (1570 votes)
No! 29.62 % (882 votes)
It’s a draw 17.66 % (526 votes)
2978 total votes

704. Other Guy - August 11, 2013

Get over the Khan is Cumby thing.

They screwed up on that idea and for reasons which; 1. We will never know about, or 2. We will never agree on.

705. Marja - August 11, 2013

697, Keachick, Yes, Bob Orci is “just another poster” and “should be treated like any other poster,” but the fact is, some posters here are trolls. And I’m not saying we should kiss his feet, but I think we can express disagreement with Mr Orci in a civil fashion. If those who don’t bother to do that get “bitten back” by Orci, so be it.

706. Jonboc - August 11, 2013

#695. “To have a white skinned John Harrison refer to himself as Khan was a stupid way to go, but it sure has touched on some sensitivities.”

…has touched on a FEW sensitivities. The vocal minority will always be the loudest.

707. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

@ 705. Marja – August 11, 2013

“697, Keachick, Yes, Bob Orci is “just another poster” and “should be treated like any other poster,” but the fact is, some posters here are trolls. And I’m not saying we should kiss his feet, but I think we can express disagreement with Mr Orci in a civil fashion. ”

Totally agree with you there. I’m not a big fan of STID but it was really uncalled for, the way some people were talking about Bob. In fact, I posted a comment upstream about that.

——————————————-
228. Ahmed – August 7, 2013

Guys, we need to have a civil discussion with Bob. There is really no need for calling names or personal attacks.

If you read any of my posts, it is clear that I didn’t like STID & that I was hopping for new writers. But, since Paramount already hired Bob & Alex again, then all we can do is offer our views & hope for the the 3rd movie without restoring to insults.

708. Basement Blogger - August 11, 2013

@ 692

Keachick,

In all due respect, the reason why there is some anger towards your theory that Khan got white because of cryostasis is because it’s a little crazy. That would be like having a movie starring Charlie Sheen as the President, with Danny Trejo as the star, Lady Gaga and Mel Gibson. Um…. strike that last sentence.

Second, for the last year, you have been troll food. There’s a guy who likes to troll you. Use guerrilla warfare. Hit them and then back out. Trolls want you to keep trying to get the last word and for you to lose your cool. Luckily for you, on these main threads we fight trolls but know when to end the fight.

You’re better off taking my route as to why we shouldn’t get upset with the casting of Cumberbatch as Khan. @ 642. The question was “Could Khan be a white man?” Nothing in the canon says we know his parents. And since he was grown out of a test tube (See Enterprise: Borderland episode) nothing stops Khan’s creator from making him a white male.

I like my crazy idea for this thread. DRAFT STEVEN SPIELBERG FOR STAR TREK 3. He’s got time on his hands. And he gets the Enterprise for the fiftieth anniversary.

709. I am to smurfy - August 11, 2013

I could see a future movie, revealing that Harrison was not Khan Noonien Singh but rather another Botany Bay passenger who also holds the title Khan.

And I would be quite allright with that.

710. Marja - August 11, 2013

Correction to my #698, this man has lost all “family” (including Admiral Pike) except his fellow officers on the Enterprise. EXCEPT SAREK, obviously. But Dad’s busy rebuilding a civilization.

711. I am to smurfy - August 11, 2013

Basement Blogger, where do you get the idea that spielberg has time on his hands he has no less than 4 movies lined up in his pipeline to direct and even more to produce in the next few years.

712. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

Why some people so adamant that BC wasn’t the real Khan ???

The movie stated he is Khan. The writers, the director & the cast all said he is KHAN. End of story. Why argue about something so basic that was stated within the movie & confirmed by the entire production team.

713. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

686. Disinvited – August 11, 2013

Hehehe! Not bad. That would explain Carrot Man.

714. I am to Smufy - August 11, 2013

712 Why does it matter to you so much?
movies are open to interpritation, If some off us like the movie better thinking perhaps he is NOT Khan Nooneian Sing but another Khan what does it matter to YOU?

in the movie Harrison only says he is Khan, its Spock prime that uses the full name (without visualy verifying that it is the same khan mind you)

At the end of the day movies and what audiences get out of them are entirely subjective.

715. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

712 Why does it matter to you so much?
movies are open to interpritation, If some off us like the movie better thinking perhaps he is NOT Khan Nooneian Sing but another Khan what does it matter to YOU?

in the movie Harrison only says he is Khan, its Spock prime that uses the full name (without visualy verifying that it is the same khan mind you)

At the end of the day movies and what audiences get out of them are entirely subjective..

716. Tom - August 11, 2013

I think Bob has taken criticism pretty well while defending his positions.
He has also stated in interviews that the team does take the pulse of fan feedback. That is much appreciated and will hopefully lead to a satisfying third movie for all. Happy 50th anniversary and Good luck Bob.
Just give Damon a creative consultant position. If all goes awry just blame him. Seriously though I feel like you will be driven to succeed with this movie

717. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

@ 714. I am to Smurfy – August 11, 2013

“712 Why does it matter to you so much?
movies are open to interpritation, If some off us like the movie better thinking perhaps he is NOT Khan Nooneian Sing but another Khan what does it matter to YOU?”

The interpretations should follow the logic within the movie as well as the writers & director statements. These guys clearly saying BC was playing Khan, the only Khan known to Star Trek fans. There is simply no room for interpretations here, otherwise, you are talking about a movie that happen only in your head or a fan fiction.

BC is Khan, pure & simple. It was a dumb f$$ked up idea to be sure, no denying that.

718. Keachick - August 11, 2013

#698 – “We do not know but perhaps these united “voices” help individual Vulcans maintain control of their emotions.”

Yes. I refer people to the TNG episode “Sarek” (third season). Prime universe Sarek was more than 200 years old and was suffering from Bendai Syndrome. Another younger vulcan telepath travelling with Sarek was helping Sarek maintain control over his emotions so that the diplomat Sarek could logically, objectively, without undue emotion, negotiate a treaty between the Federation and a new race. What was also telling was the effect this disease and the suppression of the powerful, deranged emotions affecting Sarek had on the crew of the Enterprise.

I had to hold it back when I read the comment about the “lower level”. Whoa! is all I will say about the comment…:(

I agree that had there not been so many action scenes, we may have seen the issues that Uhura (and Kirk) had with Spock discussed in a better location. However, I think that the shuttlecraft was actually quite a good place for the three people – Uhura, Spock and Kirk to air their frustrations, fears and misunderstandings. Spock’s erratic behaviour did not just affect Uhura personally but it also affected Uhura and Kirk professionally and once Uhura insisted on the problem being discussed, Kirk realized that “Yes” – this was something affecting all three (and more perhaps). So it was discussed and Spock was forced to TRUST the two people sitting with him in the shuttle and ARTICULATE what he is actually FEELING/going through. The shuttle craft provided privacy and space… This was always more than just a “lover’s spat”. I get tired of having to explain the very relevant nature of that scene. It was an important scene.

I have always seen the potential for the “awesome foursome”. In Star Trek, Kirk/Spock/McCoy are just three (fictional) guys who have, over time, formed a wonderful bond of understanding and friendship. The “awesome foursome” means that similar understanding and friendships developing now include a woman, Lt Nyota Uhura. Works for me!

719. Basement Blogger - August 11, 2013

@ 711

I am to Smurfy-

You need to update your information. Stephen Spielberg has dropped out of directing “American Sniper” and “Roboapocalypse” is in limbo. Link. Also check out his IMDB page for upcoming directorial jobs. It’s open.

Based on the information, Steven Spielberg has time to direct Star Trek 3. Crazy idea. But again if they make a movie with Charlie Sheen, Danny Trejo, Lady Gaga, Cuba Gooding Jr. Antion Banderas and Mel Gibson then Spielberg can direct Star Trek 3.

Link. Spielberg drops out of directing “American Sniper.”
http://www.deadline.com/2013/08/steven-spielberg-drops-out-of-directing-american-sniper/

720. boborci - August 11, 2013

695. keachick

not the case. I supported our collective view once I was satisfied with the story.

As I said in other posts, the fact that K was Indian never registered for me as a kid. It did not seem like an essential element of his character. In fact. I thought he was Mexican/Spanish. he just seemed like a sci- fi character – a genetically engineered superman from the past who cared for his crew. That is what seemed essential to me.

721. Keachick - August 11, 2013

Great – now I am troll food and have some crazy ideas…so what’s new?

722. boborci - August 11, 2013

661. aurore

opposite of racism. did not want terrorist to be of color. we were not about to make True Lies 2.

723. boborci - August 11, 2013

651. and, obviously we considered him the best actor we saw. I actually have to spell that out for you?

equally obviously, i knew, as a Trek fan, that some fans would find it controversial. So he HAD TO BE GOOD.

724. boborci - August 11, 2013

643. mikeb

negotiations not done, but if they work out, will be looking for 3rd hand asap.

725. boborci - August 11, 2013

642. yup

726. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

@Bob,

Can you tell us anything about the next movie & what plans, if any, to utilize the 50th anniversary somehow in the movie?

727. Keachick - August 11, 2013

OK, Bob Orci. I thought, perhaps, it was otherwise.

Yes, I do now recall you saying that the fact was K was Indian never registered for you when you were a kid. One thing that was explained in Space Seed was that K was the result of some form of genetic engineering and I think so were the rest of his crew of the Botany Bay.

I guess you realize now that you guys have stepped onto a minefield by casting a white English guy into that role.

Personally, I like what you guys have done in STID and how you have mirrored parts of TWOK. Chris, Zachary, Karl, Zoe, Benedict et al did a great job. I am trying not to be biased but I do think that Chris Pine just nailed his character as a younger, not always so sure of himself, James Kirk, but getting there and did much to carry this film in a wonderful way.

The violent…scenes could have been fewer, but I am sure you have read that soooo many, many times before, but they did not totally distract from the story in the way it does happen in other films of a similar genre.

I hope you will be part of the writing team for the third movie and that just maybe, you might be able to include some of my ideas into the next film…

That’s all. Thank you.

728. boborci - August 11, 2013

725. ahmed

Certainly I can tell you that whoever does the 50th Anniversary movie, it better be damned good!;)

729. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

SO we are less than 10 days out now from the digital home video release of Into Darkness.
Is there anyone on here who is going the digital download route instead of waiting for the 3D bluray, bluray and DVD releases?

730. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

718,
You can stick to IMDB all you want, I stick to what I read in the trades.
He doesnt have as much free time as you seem to indicate.
Even with delays on those two productions.

731. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

@687:

When you say that Enterprise is canon whether I like it or not, you are again mistaking what is true by convention with what is true independent of convention.

Canon is mere convention. A group of you think it is an extension of TOS, and some of us don’t. So it’s really not canon whether I like it or not; it’s just canon to you and those who share that opinion, and it’s not canon to me and those who share my opinion. It isn’t “true” as though it were some objective fact that I have to get used to. It’s just a convention in the minds of a certain group of people, which convention we are free not to share with you.

I literally don’t care what they did in Enterprise. It wasn’t a very good show and I would never restrict the future of any TOS reboot to what bad ideas they explored in that show if I thought I came up with some better idea that conflicts with something they did.

Regarding Khan: When you say a case can be made that Khan is Indian, that is exactly where I think you make your mistake. It’s isn’t that a case can be made for it, but that is the fact of what he has been established to be; you see, he isn’t a real person about whom it is possible to have views that are either correct or incorrect. He is merely a fiction who is what his creators intend him to be, and who express their intentions in the work in which he appears by a variety of means.

That’s why I warned against confusing symbol for reality. You understand Khan not by understanding who a real person is and what his parentage was, but by understanding what those who created the symbol that he is represents.

He’s just a symbol. And the basis of the criticism of the casting is that the symbol did not get transferred accurately between TOS and the reboot of TOS as an exception to an otherwise excellent transference elsewhere, which was itself symbolic of their respect for TOS canon. Waffling on that respect for so iconic a character is what the complaint is about.

The difference between you and I is that I am looking at what they meant Khan to be in Space Seed, and you are looking for ways to revise what they meant in Space Seed to make that fit what they did in STID.

So I don’t think we have a difference of opinion on the same thing, I think we are arguing about different things.

732. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

718 not really getting the coralation between RR having his friends appear in Machette 2 has to do with Spielberg ever in a million years direct a Star Trek film.

You do realize that RR is friends with every single one of those people and they were happy to do a few days work on his film because of that friendship right, and because the first film was so much fun to watch and according to Dany and the rest of the cast fun to work on.

733. Curious Cadet - August 11, 2013

@716. Ahmed,
“The interpretations should follow the logic within the movie as well as the writers & director statements. These guys clearly saying BC was playing Khan, the only Khan known to Star Trek fans. There is simply no room for interpretations here, otherwise, you are talking about a movie that happen only in your head or a fan fiction.”

All that matters is what’s on screen. It doesn’t matter what the filmmakers say. Moreover, Orci has confirmed that there is nothing in the film that precludes a future filmmaker from making someone else Khan. I also don’t see anything in the movie that logically prevents this. As long as there is nothing in the film that contradicts this theory, it remains a possibility.

This is no different than time travel in ST09. There is nothing in that film itself which precludes time travel working the way it always has in Star Trek, despite the filmmakers stating otherwise, and Orci has stated this is intentional. Perhaps so too is the ambiguity about Khan. Ether way, the ambiguity reasonably exists.

734. Basement Blogger - August 11, 2013

@ 727

Bob Orci,

Since you’ve worked with Steven Spielberg on Cowboys and Indians,how about giving him a call about directing Star Trek 3 for the fiftieth anniversary. You could start out the conversation like this,

“Steven, I hear you dropped out of America Sniper and are looking for a project to direct. How about directing one of the greatest science fiction franchises ever? Want the keys to the Enterprise?”

In the words of Dr. Farnsworth (Futurama) “A man can dream…”

735. Keachick - August 11, 2013

I have been thinking about people’s suggestion that we see a sort of remake of The Doomsday Machine with Tom Hanks playing the role of Matt Decker.

I do not think that this is a very good idea. This is not because The Doomsday Machine was not a good TOS episode. It is because it is a good one and this is largely due to William Windom’s performance as Matt Decker. I have not watched the episode for some time but I can still hear/see him in some of those scenes and he was brilliant – nearly 50 years later. He owned that character.

I fear that many will be disappointed if the episode were sort of redone, even if Tom Hanks does the most brilliant performance of his life. Similar has happened when trying retell (in an interesting way) the story of Space Seed/TWOK. For many, it just does not work for them.

FWIW, I have always thought that The Doomsday Machine was a better episode than Space Seed and that the main actors in that episode just showed how good they were at their craft – so many gems in that episode.

736. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

691. Curious Cadet – August 11, 2013

Whew, you lost me with that one man, but I don’t think I ever claimed or implied that Bob gave us an in-movie explanation for it in here. The only explanation I recall is the OUT OF MOVIE one where he explains his thinking on the casting. And the OUT OF MOVIE one is the one I assert is the real one, and there may be more than one for all I know.

737. Vultan - August 11, 2013

#721

If memory serves, True Lies didn’t have a white man behind the scenes pulling the strings as Adm. Marcus did in STID. So… why worry about race? Khan was meant to be a tragic villain anyway. The guy we’re supposed to, if not sympathize with, then at least understand his motives—as in TWOK.

Too bad this overly sensitive bit of casting distracted from what could have been a great role—for an Indian actor!

738. Frater Scribimus - August 11, 2013

Red matter, Bendai Syndrome. As he suffers, so does the multi-verse. Send him home before its too late.

Please, Orci-wan, you’re our only hope.

739. loon44 - August 11, 2013

Hi Bob, I’d like to see something on the nature or definition of life. Perhaps the Klingon Empire and the Federation, as expansionist entities seeking new homes for expanding populations, both discover the ‘perfect’ , seemingly uninhabited world. Only its not. They just can’t see it at first.

Not under any illusions at all that its an original concept, its been somewhat of a constant particularly in TNG, but think its a great opportunity to draw parallels between the cultures and their motivations, as well as show the differences. And thus set the stage for both some conflict, but also, hopefully, for some evolution of both the Klingons and the Federation as cultures, and the characters of Kirk, Spock etc.

BTW: as a guy who remembers sneaking out of bed to look through the crack of the living room door at our old B&W tv to see this strange, exciting universe, thanks for bringing it back and making it live again!

740. Vultan - August 11, 2013

Don’t get me wrong. I understand wanting to depict minorities in a better light in the media. I’m all for it. But if we’re to treat everyone equal and want to enlighten the audience on how others are mistreated, we shouldn’t dodge the issue. We should confront it. Head on.

Imagine how enlightening STID could have been by exploring the still often misunderstood Sikh culture… and showing how Khan was a corruption of it….

Just a thought.

741. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

Oh Bob! My typing finger still works. I’d be a good “third hand.” ;-)

742. boborci - August 11, 2013

737. Vultan

hear what you are saying, but I am not dodging an issue. I’m actually facing it in a way that I am not comfortable articulating outside of our work.

743. dmduncan - August 11, 2013

737. Vultan – August 11, 2013

Hey that’s not a bad idea, Vultan. Imagine a story where Khan starts out the same villainous way, becomes humbled through its events, and by the end decides to explore his roots sincerely for the first time rather than to keep going the opposite way toward more conquest.

We end with a Singh who is neither frozen nor banished but for the first time free from all he was raised to be.

Something very dramatic would have to happen to force such a reversal.

744. Phil - August 11, 2013

Still a lot of back and forth on the Khan Kolor. You would think they would have perfected the tanning booth by the 23rd century.

The guys adopted. Time to move on.

745. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

@ 727. boborci – August 11, 2013

“725. ahmed

Certainly I can tell you that whoever does the 50th Anniversary movie, it better be damned good!;)”

lol, absolutely.

I hope you guys will come up with an epic story for the 3rd movie. And by epic, I don’t mean bigger action scenes but rather a great sci-fi story that explore Star Trek universe in a way that wasn’t done before.

I’m looking forward to “Ender’s Game”, the trailer looks amazing & it was enough for me to have Harrison Ford in the movie :)

btw, you guys should write or produce a sci-fi TV series. I know you are doing “Sleepy Hollow”, which I’m planning to watch, but it is a fantasy/action series & not sci-fi.

746. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

@ 741. Phil – August 11, 2013

“The guys adopted. Time to move on.”

lol, I will second that.

747. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

I always laugh when I read these comments with people suggesting that Spielberg would even consider directing the 13th movie of any franchise let alone Star Trek

But go on and keep dreaming lol

748. Aurore - August 11, 2013

@721. boborci – August 11, 2013
661. aurore

“opposite of racism. did not want terrorist to be of color…”

______________

You said so before ; if I’m not mistaken, you feared that some people might only see a terrorist in a person “of colour”.

That sounded patronizing, to me.

“…we were not about to make True Lies 2.”

I don’t remember seeing any nuanced villain in True Lies, so I’m glad to hear you say that, since that is not the kind of movie I expected to see, either.

What you said concerning the way you viewed Khan as a child on another thread and again today, confirms something I was made aware of months ago while participating in/following some discussions online ; for some fans, Khan is “Mexican/Spanish”.

I know you learned more about Khan’s background as an adult…but, understandably your first impressions of the character certainly counted for a lot.

749. Barney Fife - August 11, 2013

@ 742 Ahmed
I’ve been bugging boborci about them doing the next Trek live action TV series. They have a deal with CBS Television….kinda makes sense that K/O will bring it up.

750. Captain, USS Northstar - August 11, 2013

@ 727 boborci

“…whoever does the 50th Anniversary movie, it better be damned good.”

LOL!

I think, on that much at least, everyone can agree. :-)

Personally — I like the way Star Trek has been re-imagined. I like the new Enterprise, I like the actors bringing a fresh look to beloved characters. It all works.

If we think about it, most people liked how Batman was “re-imagined,” or Superman, or even how Mission Impossible got a new treatment. Did people howl when we were presented with a new hero — Ethan Hunt? (I’m not inviting commentary, I’m just pointing out how sometimes we just have to go with a new vision and let it grow on us.”)

I think it would help if we had some novels set in the new timeline; it might help fans get behind this new setting and explore its richness and depth.

I’ve seen lots of great ideas for this next movie installment — everything from Kang or Kor (or maybe even our “dear Captain Koloth”!) and Klingons to The Doomsday Machine to something completely original.

If we’re drawing from TOS source material, I could also recommend “Tomorrow Is Yesterday” (I know — people will roll their eyes and say: “Oh not another time travel story”, but there was some good drama and some humorous elements in that story), “The Ultimate Computer” or even “City On the Edge of Forever.” Other ideas might include “Balance of Terror,” “Arena” or “The Corbomite Maneuver” if we want to re-introduce “contemporary Romulans” from this timeline, the Gorn (too bad they were used in the ST game — I liked how they were “re-imagined”), or the First Federation.

There’s a wonderful ST book called “Federation” that brings together 3 separate timelines — perhaps a story along those lines might prove inspirational for a 50th Anniversary movie?

Anyway: as Picard says in the very last line of the ST:TNG series — “The sky’s the limit.” There’s plenty of inspiration out there.

And, I’m sure it will lead to a story and a movie that is “damned good.”

751. loon44 - August 11, 2013

Ah, oop, sorry about that. Its back.

752. Vultan - August 11, 2013

#740

Very good, dmduncan. I like it!

Also, Khan’s seeking vengeance is against the basic idea of Nietzsche’s ubermensch. A true superman wouldn’t lower himself to such human motives. So Khan coming realize just how far he’s fallen from his heritage, both from the temple and the laboratory, would’ve been quite the character arc.

753. Vultan - August 11, 2013

Correction: coming TO realize…

754. Keachick - August 11, 2013

OT – I am told that Chris Pine is now in Tokyo, Japan, (arrived two hours plus ago), in order to help promote STID soon to be released there. It seems that there was no press but there were a few fans, it seems… He was dressed very casually with facial stubble signing an autograph and smiling. He looked great, rather sexy in fact.

Will this site show anything of STID’s promotion in Japan – release date 23 August?

755. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

@ 746. Barney Fife – August 11, 2013

“@ 742 Ahmed

I’ve been bugging boborci about them doing the next Trek live action TV series. They have a deal with CBS Television….kinda makes sense that K/O will bring it up.”

If they have a deal with CBS, they really should push for a new Star Trek series. Unless they want to wait until they are done with the movies.

756. Phil - August 11, 2013

@744. Well, it’s a name on a list. As long as we are dealing with fantasy, why not throw in a few dead directors for consideration?

Hitchcock, anyone? John Ford?

757. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

@ 750. Keachick – August 11, 2013

“Will this site show anything of STID’s promotion in Japan – release date 23 August?”

Paramount is releasing STID in Japan NOW ?? After it been released worldwide for like 3 months & will be available in just couple weeks on blu ray !!

758. Phil - August 11, 2013

Well, if we are musing about it, what might a Hitchcock, Ford, Kubrick, or Wells directed Trek look like?

759. Ahmed - August 11, 2013

@ 754. Phil – August 11, 2013

“Well, if we are musing about it, what might a Hitchcock, Ford, Kubrick, or Wells directed Trek look like?”

A Kubrick Trek movie, will be like 3 hours long & very similar to TMP. Oh & it would have taken him maybe 5 to 6 years to finish the movie :)

760. Phil - August 11, 2013

@750. Probably not – the big Trek convention has been in Las Vegas this weekend, and nothing was reported.

Cumberbatch has been in Japan promoting the movie. It’ll add 10MM or so in box office in the next four weeks, and then it’s done.

761. Basement Blogger - August 11, 2013

@ 729, 731, 744

Smurfy,

I’m guessing you want a response since you responded not once but three times. And you misread everything that I have wrote on the issue. One, you asked for my sources on Spielberg’s availability. I gave it to you. It was Deadline and IMDB. By the way, more than one source has reported that Spielberg has dropped out of “American Sniper.” You on the other hand have yet to cite any source that Spielberg has directing projects lined up.

Two, you totally misread my jokes about Machete 2. I acknowledge that getting Spielberg to direct Star Trek 3 is a crazy idea. In fact I say it’s a crazy idea in 708 just like having Charlie Sheen, Lady Gaga and Mel Gibson in a movie. Get the joke? But seriously, if Spielberg is available, and Paramount is willing to pay him, why not? Unlike you I don’t sell Star Trek short by implying that it’s not a prestige project.

You know there is a trolling technique that misrepresents what one has written and attack them for it. This gets the writer to defend himself. Your moniker is a little blue creature who’s like a troll. I suggest you try to understand what people write before you attack them for it. Somebody might accuse you of being a troll.

762. Keachick - August 11, 2013

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1408101/releaseinfo

763. I am To Smurfy - August 11, 2013

So let me get this straight because we don’t see eye to eye and my screen name is the title of a song that makes me a troll?
(for the record I thought Right Said Fred’s update of his song I am to sexy for Smurfs2 was cute so I adopted the screen name )

I understand perfectly what you wrote and as I said I disagree with it.
Again likening the Matchette Kills cast to spielberg signing on to direct the 13th star trek movie just doesnt equate.

And saying that spielberg would never consider directing the 13th film of ANY franchise thats not downplaying Star Trek at all.
Its just stating a fact that would be like a Ridley Scott, James Cameron, or Peter Jackson directing the 13th movie of a franchise. Those names like Spielberg launch franchises not take them over.

As for your comments on defending yourself, what have you said that requires defending? Your opinons are your own, as mine are mine. We don’t agree that is fine but we are both allowed to post our thoughts.

764. Trekboi - August 11, 2013

Elysium is the worst movie I havs seen this year.

765. Trekboi - August 11, 2013

#759 You do seem like a troll – yea

766. Trekboi - August 11, 2013

#721 “opposite of racism. did not want terrorist to be of color. we were not about to make True Lies 2.”

Since when is racism associated with picking a terrorist from the region of the world where like 98% come from. LOL

767. Trekboi - August 11, 2013

#699 “Have a great action movie where the end goal is to save Vulcan, and restore the timeline, but in the end, the only way to achieve the goal also means that that the events in the last two movies are erased and the time line is unaffected by Nero, Spock and the Red Matter. ”

Dumbest idea in Star Trek fan history!

768. Red Dead Ryan - August 11, 2013

#759.

“(for the record I thought Right Said Fred’s update of his song I am to sexy for Smurfs2 was cute so I adopted the screen name )”

Oooooookkkkkkkaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy, rrriiiiiiiight, LOL! :-)

Also, the correct way to spell your name would be “I am TOO Smurfy”.

769. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

Red Dead thanks for correcting how I choose to spell MY name.

770. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

Red Dead thanks for correcting how I choose to spell MY name.

If i was being 100 percent accurate to the title it would be
I’m Too Smurfy

but I chose to have it be I am To Smurfy.

771. Basement Blogger - August 11, 2013

I saw Elysium. It’s good but has major problems. The biggest is one of the villains, Kruger. He’s written very simply. He’s crazy evil. That’s it. Actor Sharlto Copley plays him with a heavy South African accent and with a wink in his eye, i.e. he doesn’t take him all that seriously. The problem is the logic here. Why would power hungry and smart Defense Minister Delacourt use such an insane guy that she can’t control? And when he snaps, I could not believe that the robot police couldn’t put the guy down. At least with Star Trek Into Darkness, we’ve got some three dimensional villains.

So for this year so far, Star Trek Into Darkness is the best science fiction movie.

772. I am to Smurfy - August 11, 2013

763 not by a long shot.
I personally feel the best sci fi film this year is 51 Degrees

Though a close second has to be the upcoming Last Days on Mars, which I saw a advance screening of a few weeks ago. Liev Schrieber is excellent in the movie.

773. Exverlobter - August 12, 2013

@Boborci

I’m torn. On the one hand i was a bit disappointed with Into Darkness, and like Karl urban want something new and original for the 50th anniversary of Star Trek.
On the other hand the Into Darkness Khan-storyline was not wrapped up and HAS TO be continued/resolved. Otherwise the film would be pointless, because it calls for a sequel.
So what is the next step?
I think the situation can be compared with the Daniel Craig Bond films.
Many people loved the first one, but were underwhelmed with Quantum of solace. Consequently for the 50th birthday they made the outstandingly good Skyfall, which for now ignored the events of the first 2 films and was just a great stand-alone film. However, I guess they’ll continue with the Mr.White/Quantum storyline in the next one which i’ll admit HAS to be done. Otherwise the first 2 films would have been pointless.

That could be a solution for Trek as well.
The third one will be a standalone-adventure with no connection to Into Darkness whatsoever, and the Khan-plot could be continued in a possible fouth movie.
What do you think Boborci?

BTW, that’s what i would solve the Khan-plot (in the third or like i suggested fourth film):

I loved the bit in Into Darkness where Kirk and Khan have to work together to stop Admiral Marcus. This should have been a way bigger part of the film. Kirk and Khan could have been friends most of the time like Magneto and Prof.X in X-Men first class.
That would have been a great twist (better than just Spock screaming Khan) and what a pitty that this potential was not fully used.
However, it still can be done. Thats how i would do it:

The next great adversary are the Klingon, the Federation is caught off guard (Future Pearl Harbor?) and the only way to stop the Klingons is to use Khan against them.
In the course of the movie Khan slowly moves from the Dark side to the Bright side of the force, pardon the pun, and in the end Khan is the saviour of the Federation. That would be a nice twist.
Prime-universe Khan ends in a Moby-Dick revenge story, but Abramsverse-Khan gets more the Darth Vader- approach, who redeems himself in the end.

What do you think Boborci?

774. Basement Blogger - August 12, 2013

@ 764

Smurfy,

Glad to see you support independent English film. The two movies you cite may be better than Star Trek Into Darkness. My comment goes to what has been released so far this year. The two movies in your comment have not opened here in the United States, I can only go by what I’ve seen.

51 Degrees is a found footage type movie. According to IMDB, it opened in the UK on August 9. Can’t find any other information on any wider release. It may not play in the United States. So it’s difficult to judge it if nobody can see it. Here’s the official site. See if you can find release dates? Site doesn’t seem to say when the movie opens. Which movie theater did you see it at?

http://51degreesfilm.com/

Last Days on Mars has a UK opening date of September 19. Can’t judge it if nobody can see it.

We’ll just have to go by your word that these are excellent science fiction movies. Maybe they’ll be nominated for a Hugo. .

775. ironhyde - August 12, 2013

719. boborci – August 11, 2013

Nice to see you back, mr. Orci. I 100% agree with you. When I saw Space Seed, I did not register any particular race or religious following to Khan. I saw him and just saw him as a man. That’s absolutely right! Spot on!

So what’s really troubling for me about this “Khan” villain in STID — who’s one of the only parts of the movie that I truly had a distaste for, actually — was that he wasn’t anything else I knew of Khan, either. You had twisted his story so completely, and made up for it using ONLY tightly edited exposition, that nothing of the man resembled in any way Khan Noonian Singh. I wish wish wish, it was only his ethnic and religious aspects. It was not. The way this villain was written was for people already knowing khan to bring in their knowledge and fill in the blanks. But fill them in with puzzle pieces that never quite fit. He was cardboard.

776. boborci - August 12, 2013

767. ironhyde

don’t agree. you needed to know nothing about him. that was our goal. but I appreciate your well articulated disagreement.

going through this issue of who knows what on Ender’s Game, interestingly enough, We’ve been criticized by some fans for “revealing” the ending in the trailers, yet I can’t imagine someone who knows nothing about the book agreeing. Recent studies have proven that eye witness testimony is infinitely more unreliable than we ever knew, and I think it demonstrates how our point of view can be so easily skewed by one thing or another. not saying Im right and your wrong,

777. boborci - August 12, 2013

767. one last thing about him being cardboard:

here is what is text in the movie– He is a man, genetically altered in the past, who was exiled and put into cryosleep with his family/crew. Then, he was woken up by and Admiral who held his crew/family hostage in order to draft him into a pre-emptive war machine. he reqcted and fought back to get the admiral and save his family. in the process, he recognized Kirk as potentially being someone who would understand all that, which is why he surrendered to him.

hard for me to understand how the word “cardboard” could apply to that.

778. Curious Cadet - August 12, 2013

@763. Basement Blogger,
“Why would power hungry and smart Defense Minister Delacourt use such an insane guy that she can’t control? And when he snaps, I could not believe that the robot police couldn’t put the guy down.”

Why would Marcus give the one time supreme leader of 1/4 of the Earth’s population free run of Star Fleet’s most powerful and secret organization? Why would he enlist a vastly superior genetically enhanced, mass genocide committing, ego maniacal criminal, and assume he could control him? Why would he put an outdated 300 year old intellect in charge of building Star Fleet’s most advanced weaponry? And if Khan was so brilliant as to be able to close that gap in a few short weeks, wouldn’t that be some cause for concern? Is Khan so transparent the Achilles heel that is his crew could be so easily discerned? If so, Marcus should have known he wouldn’t have been able to control him, ever. And it’s pretty hard to believe the entirety of Starfleet in an all-out manhunt couldn’t bring Khan down, much less a battalion of Klingon warriors on their homeworld.

—————————-
@766 BB,
“Maybe they’ll be nominated for a Hugo.”

And maybe one will win, because if STID wins it will truly be a bad year for long form scifi. On the other hand, maybe Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof will win for best fan fiction adaptation.

779. Aurore - August 12, 2013

@ 722. boborci – August 11, 2013

“651. and, obviously we considered him the best actor we saw. I actually have to spell that out for you?

equally obviously, i knew, as a Trek fan, that some fans would find it controversial. So he HAD TO BE GOOD.
__________

“and, obviously we considered him the best actor we saw. I actually have to spell that out for you?…”

I apologise sir, I missed that post of yours ; you wrote 651 not 661, but, I just realised that you might have been addressing me in that post, as well.

In case you were, you were not responding to any point I made on this thread since I repeatedly said that I knew Mr. Cumberbatch’s performance would be stellar long before we were even told anything about his identity.

Thus, no sir, you do not have to “spell out any of that for me”.
Thanks nonetheless.

:)

“….equally obviously, i knew, as a Trek fan, that some fans would find it controversial. So he HAD TO BE GOOD.”

Absolutely.
The topic has always been controversial.

As a matter of fact, the point I was making, when @ 661 I wrote “I think that a role should always go to the best actor…no matter their nationality…” ( if that is what you were responding to ), is similar to the one I made over the past few months when discussing the Khan question.

In one such instance you were present, so, I know you are very familiar with what some fans may find “controversial” :

(Posts 567, 571, and many more, before and after the ones I just mentioned) :

http://trekmovie.com/2012/12/12/tenutoblog-making-the-case-for-identifying-the-star-trek-into-darkness-villain/

780. Strat - August 12, 2013

@boborci boborci boborci

Have you ever seen the animated episode “Beyond the Farthest Star”? The derelict living ship from that episode would be visually awesome in the next movie. The whole energy entity thing is silly, but having the Enterprise encounter a giant ancient derelict living ship like that in deep space would be a great way to start off the story and create a real sense of wonder and exploration.

781. Craiger - August 12, 2013

You mean the Enterprise would discover Moya? LOL.

782. JimJ - August 12, 2013

@769 & more…boborci:

Star Trek Into Darkness is my favorite Star Trek movie ever. However, as a die hard fan who was born the same year as Trek first aired (1966), I really do think it’s time to get back to what Trek used to be about. As Scotty said, “I thought we were explorers!”

Lately, Star Trek’s Enterprise crews have become the intergalactic peace keepers/cops. As compelling and full of action as some of those stories have been, it’s becoming a very tired and old story line. Mind you, this story line is not exclusive to Trek. It’s in about every single action movie of any type in today’s world.

The real creative question is this, Bob. How do you make a movie that hearkens back to what Star Trek really was about for the 50th Anniversary movie (and it SHOULD have that flavor for the 50th Anniversary) AND put average Joe movie goer’s butt in the seats? Do I have the answer? Nope!

I have to tell you, though…Star Trek has survived for 50 years BECAUSE it was different, unique, and original. It didn’t follow “formula” in it’s heart. Sure, it followed TV formulas on certain episodes at certain times, but not always. When you find the heart of Star Trek and do a fantastic movie based on that, then you’ve got something historic in the Star Trek world.

I wish I had the answers, but I don’t. What I can tell you is what I do NOT want to see: I do not want to see another recycled villain of any type (person, machine, other living entity, etc.). I want to see something original that the crew came upon BY EXPLORING. Be creative!!! Think of all the original creatures, beings, entities they came upon throughout the series. Also, think about all the different TV shows and how many of them were criticized when “the same old enemy showed up again”.

People love heroes like Spock showing up in The Next Generation or your movies, but they aren’t so keen on villains like Khan (in your movie), the Ferengi (in Enterprise), Borg (in Enterprise), etc. returning. Everyone says the next movie is going to be Klingons. All I can say is, if they are the main focus: UGH!!! Another same old tired and used plot device. It’s fine to have them be part of a B plot, interfering with what the crew deals with, but the main focus? YUCK!

Honestly, when I heard it was Khan, I was furious. I want NEW stuff. You can say he was new because he was different (and he actually was and I liked it). However, I think it was another trip to the Khan well that wasn’t needed. Staying John Harrison would have been better (even if it was the same sleeper ship as Khan’s and was a different guy revived), or being Gary Mitchell would have been better. I understand that Khan is recognized by Joe moviegoer much more than Gary Mitchell…but then you state in an argument that people didn’t need to know who Khan was (background, etc.) to go to/enjoy this movie. Ahem…you are trying to have it both ways, Bob! Gary Mitchell’s advantage would be: he was once a good guy. That makes him more intriguing, in many ways. Khan never was a good guy first, IMO.

Anyway, I could go on and on. Why did I take the time to write this? Because I love the original characters, I love the movies you have done, and I want Star Trek to survive another 50 years. I just think it’s time to be very cautious as things move ahead. At this point, I can’t think of anyone I’d rather see doing this. Just be careful about going to the same well too much. That is very Berman/Braga-like. We all know how that ended……

783. Disinvited - August 12, 2013

#716. Ahmed – August 11, 2013

But this “logic” you espouse of the screenwriter having the final word flies in the face of movie producing history – not to mention the Trek movies themselves.

In TWOK the writer of the final form of the screenplay, Meyer, who was also the director, clearly and vocally intended for the Spock character to be irreversibly killed, i.e. no resurrection. Even the lead, Shatner, filmed all his scenes with that in mind. And yet the studio, Paramount, overruled that “logic” and conspired with the film’s Executive Producer, Kelley, and Nimoy to film an additional scene to reedit into the film and change that approach.

The head of the studio, Eisner, even later intimated that Khan’s TWOK fate would be the subject of a future movie which made me wonder why they even thought they needed a Spock “Remember.” scene in the first place if Eisner thought he could bring Khan back?

784. Disinvited - August 12, 2013

Looks as if GENESIS II’s tube system may be feasible:

http://techland.time.com/2013/08/12/tesla-inventor-elon-musk-to-share-plans-for-hyperloop-high-speed-travel/

785. Basement Blogger - August 12, 2013

@ 693, 771

Aurore,

Thanks for the bossa nova. Time for another music break. So I’m at a bar on Friday. And a couple of angry white guys yell at me for playing bossa nova on the juke box. I make the comment on these guys race because they fit the type of Americans who are racist. I mean they think my Chinese name is funny, laugh at jokes about our African American baseball manager based on his race, etc. etc. Yes, we still have these type of bigots here in the states.

Anyway, they yell at me “Play something American.” So I play Charlie Parker. Can’t get any more American than that. Jazz. Here’ s the song. I linked it for you once before. “April in Paris.” The version below has images of Paris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7SOrNyBm-I

After they hear Parker, they say, “What is the hell is that?” LIfe imitates art. I get to live a Blazing Saddles moment ala Clevon Little singing Cole Porter. . By the way, we need Mongo. One, Mongo knows jazz. Second, Mongo knows Star Trek. Please Mongo come back to Trekmovie.com.

786. dmduncan - August 12, 2013

I seem to recall that Gene Roddenberry didn’t regard it as canon simply because it was filmed, and his attitude toward one or some of the movies not made by him was that they were “apocryphal,” i.e., fraudulent, inauthentic, or perhaps partially authentic.

And that’s my attitude. If it’s TOS canon, it’s on film. But not all Trek that is on film is TOS canon.

Indeed, throwing MWI/QM into the mix with ST.09 makes talk of a universe of canon meaningless. With that we now have a multiverse of universes, each with their own canon, and that, ultimately, may be the best way for a hardcore fan to arrange versions of a Star Trek divided among different types of media and different authors within the same media.

It also prevents one version of Trek from the impossible task of being responsible to and consistent with what all other versions did.

787. Nony - August 12, 2013

@boborci!!

Bob, I have a question about one of the character decisions you guys made. (Which you’ve probably already answered somewhere, but I haven’t been scrolling through the thousands of comments across a dozen posts made since the movie came out…) It is this: Why did you not have Bones in the scene where Kirk dies? Surely the Chief Medical Officer, who is also supposedly Kirk’s best friend, would be called down to where the captain is dying. It was not Scotty’s place to determine that Kirk was past medical help, and to just call Spock down to have an ~emotional moment~. He would have called a doctor. And being the good-hearted person he is, Scotty would have known — having worked and played with these people for some time now — that maybe Bones would have liked to have been there for Kirk when he was suffering in his last minutes, since Kirk is the best friend he has and all. Bones wasn’t busy (i.e. in serious surgery) at the moment, because by the time they bring Kirk’s body back up to sickbay (which would have had to have been minutes after his death otherwise they wouldn’t have been able to recover his brain function) Bones is able to stand there and be depressed along with the rest of the medical staff.

And it would have made sense on a visual and an emotional *and* a Trekkie level to have Bones in the scene. Reasoning:

1) It would have called back to Pike’s death scene perfectly — beginning of the movie, Pike on the ground, two people who care about him mourning over him. End of the movie, Kirk on the ground, two people who care about him mourning over him. Kirk’s fate echoing the fate of his mentor.
2) It would have carried through Bones’ emotional importance to Kirk from the last movie. In XI, Bones was to Kirk as Uhura was to Spock — you guys had that symmetry there, with each main character having an emotional support character, and it really worked. In STID, Uhura and Spock’s relationship develops and finds new facets, but Bones and Kirk’s relationship actually atrophies into a series of moments of joking and Bones being annoying and fleeting, weirdly shallow interaction. It’s almost a regression. Kirk cannot care about two friends! He only has enough caring for one friend! Spock is now the new important one, so bye, Bones.
3) It would have satisfied what every Trek fan has been asking for and is still asking for now — it would have developed the TOS triumvirate. Kirk and Spock would meaningfully interact, Kirk and Bones would meaningfully interact, Spock and Bones would meaningfully interact. The latter two are still really disconnected as characters in this reboot; they haven’t had the time or opportunity to find their groove, and having Bones be part of that moment would have been perfect, because he and Spock would have found a common ground and been able to fully empathize with each other for the first time.

So those are my thoughts (and you clearly see how much I’ve thought about this, lol) on the omission that still upsets me probably more than anything else in the film. Maybe not Pike’s death, but it’s close. Many fellow Bones fans I’ve talked to feel the same. Perhaps you could shed some light on your and Alex and Damon’s thought process for that scene and for the writing of Bones in general in this movie? Where do you see the character going? Will he have development and individual importance in the future, the way he did in the past?

788. Aurore - August 12, 2013

Correction. 771.

I knew Mr. Cumberbatch’s performance would be stellar long before we were even told anything about his identity.

=

I knew Mr. Cumberbatch’s performance would be stellar long before we were even told anything about his character’s identity.

789. boborci - August 12, 2013

787 Nony

Good idea! where were you when I needed you!;)?

seriously, you are right.

790. Disinvited - August 12, 2013

#787. Nony – August 12, 2013

It is the sad condition of choosing medicine as a profession that doctors do not generally get to stop and leave the operating theater in the middle of a crisis with overwhelming crew injuries to have personal moments.

791. Disinvited - August 12, 2013

#786. dmduncan – August 12, 2013

I am confused. On the one hand you seemed to be claiming “canon” was merely a fan invention but by introducing Gene’s “apocryphal” you seem to be legitimizing it at least with respect to there being a divide between most of the films and his authentic TV series Trek?

792. dmduncan - August 12, 2013

786: “prevents” = “saves”

793. dmduncan - August 12, 2013

791. Disinvited – August 12, 2013

No, I am claiming that canon as currently understood is just a consensus, a convention, and that there are different consensuses and different conventions. The inclusion of MWI to canon does, however, seem to point to a way where fans of differing consensuses can belong to a super-consensus, or, to put it another way, to make their differing opinions all play nice together.

However, it does also suggest that you can’t view Enterprise, for example, as a straight line direct precursor to the world of TOS, since in MWI there are no straight lines.

I’ve tried pointing that out before, but I don’t think it took.

794. dmduncan - August 12, 2013

Or, rather, in MWI the straight lines are just too short to matter.

795. dmduncan - August 12, 2013

By which I mean you can’t build a story in the space of a single event before it branches off into another option in a different universe.

In MWI a “story” is what the author tells by selecting which lines he follows across a universe of almost infinite branching off points. The space between those points connected by a line that represents an event is going to be way too small in reality for itself to be a complete story.

796. dmduncan - August 12, 2013

Kapeesh?

797. dmduncan - August 12, 2013

I can think of a great way to dramatize the idea. Don’t know if it would fit in the immediate future of Trek, but it would make for a mind blowing Trek scene.

Kirk DIED in STID. You wanna deal with important issues relevant to humanity? What happened to Kirk while he was dead?

The small unimaginative answer unworthy of Trek would be: nothing.

798. Jack - August 12, 2013

Shane Black, James Mangold, Brad Bird, Marc Webb, Duncan Jones, Shane Black, Matt Reeves…

Retaliation was fine. Not great. But quirky enough thanks to Willis and Tatum.

799. crazydaystrom - August 12, 2013

797. dmduncan
“Kirk DIED in STID. You wanna deal with important issues relevant to humanity? What happened to Kirk while he was dead?

The small unimaginative answer unworthy of Trek would be: nothing.”
___________

VERY interesting! The most intriguing I’ve seen here since boborci ask about ideas.

800. Nony - August 12, 2013

@789 boborci

I’m glad you understand, thank you! I hope you guys remember that all of those relationships need to be serviced, not just Kirk and Spock. And, as Karl has said, there is a lot more to Bones than what we have been shown so far, and there are a lot of people who want to see him really come into his own as a character.

@790 Disinvited

I know, but that’s why I noted that there didn’t seem to be much activity in Sickbay at the time. :) Just minutes after Kirk died, Bones and a lot of the other doctors and nurses already had time to stand around and look at his body. And…Spock technically shouldn’t have left his post in the aftermath of a disaster to run and go have a personal moment, either. He was in charge of the ship! (Plus, shouldn’t Scotty have stayed in Engineering to oversee the mess, rather than coming up to Sickbay to sadface with the rest of them?) But an allowance was made by the writers for Spock, so I believe an allowance should have been made for Bones, too.

801. Nony - August 12, 2013

@797 dmduncan

Ooh. I like that. One thing I want to see explored in the next movie is the personal ramifications of Kirk’s death. Does he remember anything? Can he sleep at night? What is it like being (as far as he knows) the first person to be brought back to life like that?

802. crazydaystrom - August 12, 2013

Remember in TVH when Bones asked Spock about his having ‘gone where no one has gone before’ ( and come back ). Funny scene.

803. LULZ - August 12, 2013

Loved Trekmovie’s Vegas Con coverage this year!

Oh, wait…

804. ironhyde - August 12, 2013

#777 — all exposition, all words. Written, nicely edited, spoken swiftly but very unnatural. His entire backstory and purpose, and who and what he is, presented in 3 sentences. Is Khan to us just a genetically engineered superpowered man? Is that to be all and end all of his character? Those WORDS? And that being spoken in exposition makes the villain .. what? A footnote. You telling me about Khan is different from me seeing the character of Khan in the man.

The story was different enough that it so changed him and overcast all his character qualities in favour of this new plot? ok. so why is he Khan?

805. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

767. Trekboi – August 11, 2013
#699 “Have a great action movie where the end goal is to save Vulcan, and restore the timeline, but in the end, the only way to achieve the goal also means that that the events in the last two movies are erased and the time line is unaffected by Nero, Spock and the Red Matter. ”

Dumbest idea in Star Trek fan history!

Huh. Dumb? Let me slightly rephrease my imagining from above.

“Have a great action movie where Vulcan along with the normal Trek timeline is destroyed by a Romulan miner named Nero, but in the end, the only way to stop Nero also means that that the events of the original series and movies are erased by Nero, Spock and the Red Matter.”

Sound better, Trekboi ?!

806. ironhyde - August 12, 2013

Take a piece of cardboard. Paint it as Khan. Use it to stopper your door. Does that make it Khan?

807. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

787. Nony

Good points.

However that was not the the story these guys were telling. Star Trek into Darkness was not for the fans, or it seems, logical thinking people.

STiD sounds to me like a script that was put together at a bong party.

808. Disinvited - August 12, 2013

#797. dmduncan – August 12, 2013

You mean as was NOT done with Spock’s death and all the resurrected deaths in the series? Was we “don’t have a common frame of reference” the best we got?

As always, you have given me food for thought.

#800. Nony – August 12, 2013

On the one hand you are correct with regards to crew characters should all behave consistently, but on the other, my parents drummed into me that two wrongs don’t make a right.

Still, I get your point and consider it well argued within the film’s own logic.

809. Disinvited - August 12, 2013

#801. Nony – August 12, 2013

More importantly was altKirk, in death, aware of all the other Kirks’ lives and deaths, or did the unique circumstances of his universe’s creation give him only a connection to that of Prime Kirk?

810. T'Cal - August 12, 2013

I’m going to sound like Spaulding from Caddyshack here, but I want the 5 year mission to begin. I want an solid antagonist who is a match in most every way to Kirk including intelligence, ethics and tactics. I want a moral dillema for Kirk & Crew that puts them in a damned if you do/don’t situation. I want smart dialog (the “sex with farm animals” line from the first film was apalling) with relationship development between the main cast so that the thrid film is not the last film. While I like the ocassional Easter egg, I want a fresh story. Finally, while this story continues to unfold in the theaters, I want an ensamble cast weekly tv series telling another Trek tale.

Thanks, Mr. O!!

811. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

Trek-dittos, T’Cal.

812. Curious Cadet - August 12, 2013

@786. dmduncan,
“throwing MWI/QM into the mix with ST.09 makes talk of a universe of canon meaningless…If it’s TOS canon, it’s on film. But not all Trek that is on film is TOS canon.”

The problem with MWI/QM is that it invalidates chunks of even TOS canon, so it seems like you’re basically saying canon is no longer relevant. And I’m fine with that. The Abrams films have their own canon which owe nothing to previous TOS, despite stated intentions and the presence of Nimoy. So even arguing for an explanation for Khan’s appearance is irrelevant. All that went out the door when Nimoy was prevented from restoring the timeline by slingshotting around the sun.

As Orci is a conspiracy theorist, I wonder if the MWI explanation wasn’t just a way to get the fanbase to swallow the bitter “reboot” pill, and acclimate to the new universe before pulling the rug out.

813. Disinvited - August 12, 2013

FWIW:

http://www.deadline.com/2013/08/were-the-millers-opens-to-1-7m-late-shows/

“CinemaScores are coming in higher and higher for pics that Rotten Tomatoes is rating lower and lower. Who’s out of touch: movie reviewers or filmgoers? Well, Rotten Tomatoes scored 3 of the 4 newcomers only 24%-34% for positive reviews even though they received high CinemaScores.” – NIKKI FINKE

814. Basement Blogger - August 12, 2013

Crazy Star Trek story by Breaking Bad’s Badger. (Star Trek news)

Badger of Breaking Bad has this idea for a Star Trek script. He tells it on the most recent episode of Breaking Bad. Thanks to Vulture for animating the script. Link. Check it out, it’s funny.

I don’t watch Breaking Bad so I’ll assume Badger is one of the meth-heads. But I’ve got to give it up to Vince Gilligan (X-Files) and crew. They are Trekkers.

Animated depiction of Badger’s Star Trek script.
http://www.vulture.com/2013/08/breaking-bad-badger-star-trek-story-animated.html

815. Ahmed - August 12, 2013

The leaked “Guardians of the Galaxy” footage looks rubbish.

http://www.blastr.com/2013-8-12/watch-leaked-guardians-galaxy-footage-now-its-gone

816. Robman007 - August 12, 2013

786. dmduncan – August 12, 2013

“I seem to recall that Gene Roddenberry didn’t regard it as canon simply because it was filmed, and his attitude toward one or some of the movies not made by him was that they were “apocryphal,” i.e., fraudulent, inauthentic, or perhaps partially authentic.”

Actually, lets not kid ourselves on that…he didn’t regard films after TMP as cannon because the studio told him to take a hike due to what happened with TMP…. that and Trek no longer fit his “new vision” of life (ala, how things were being depicted on TNG)…hell, go read the TMP novel, which he wrote. He was even trying to disregard TOS as a whole as being inaccurate and never happenening, according to Kirk, that is.

817. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

815. Ahmed

Missed it.

But it’s here…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9mUVVoOSek

818. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

Screened Trek is only cannon if it’s GOOD.

819. Robman007 - August 12, 2013

807. Other Guy – August 12, 2013

..I wouldn’t say a bong party. I think the movie has alot of good ideas. 2/3 of the film have some pretty solid Trek ideas. The “revenge at all costs” idea is a theme that is worthy of Trek. Captain Kirk does go through one of this “Obsession” type story arcs.

No, the problems with the film start in the final 1/3 of the film. It was way too rushed and Khan did fall right back into that predictable villain role..

Something truely different would have been making Khan help the crew of the Enterprise as well as come out a “good guy” of a sort and instead of ending with a Spock/Khan fight, end with a Khan assisting the Enterprise and Starfleet against the rogue Admiral Marcus. I mean, in the haste of the final act, what happened to local fleet and starbase. Two films in a row in which Earth’s defense fleet and starbase have just gone AWOL when the villain comes knocking…

Follow that up with Kirk somehow finding a way to get Khan and his people to “disappear” to Ceti Alpha 5..

Great ideas, but the 72 Torpedoes, Ludicrous Warp Speed, and the rushed feeling of the final act as well as possible studio interference with Khan’s back story, is what hurts this film. (I would list Transwarp beaming, but if you view it like Alan Dean Foster wrote in his book..it’s logical to use that method in a daisy chain of beaming, so whatever)…

820. crazydaystrom - August 12, 2013

Just saw an IGN interview with Damon Lindelof where he said -

“One of the things I’ve learned since Lost ended was that while there’s a temptation to do multiple things at the same time, there’s a much higher probability that when I do that, that they’ll suck.”

Sounds like he’s actually learning. There may be hope for the guy yet.

821. Robman007 - August 12, 2013

820. crazydaystrom – August 12, 2013

I think that line right there explains some of the issues with STID..way too many projects plus studio pressure = issues with film.

Perhaps he will learn with the 3rd film..or just stay away if he feels he can’t give the film the time it needs

822. Robman007 - August 12, 2013

“Follow that up with Kirk somehow finding a way to get Khan and his people to “disappear” to Ceti Alpha 5..”

Following up on that idea…..would have been Kirk helping Khan in a way…taking him to a planet and fixing the records of his fate, claiming he died while saving the Enterprise and the fleet, while taking him and his men to Ceti-Alpha 5…then you’d have a Wrath style story when the sh!t hits the fan with Ceti Alpha 6 and Khan goes after Kirk for backstabbing him after what he did for his people…maybe even eventually being found by Klingons and helping them fight a war against the Federation.

823. WriterJWA - August 12, 2013

@boborci:

I’m a little late to the dance here… but I want to riff off what someone posted earlier regarding the Doomsday Machine. I think that device could be a brilliant intermediary between the “seek out and explore” side to Star Trek, and the political intrigue introduced into STID.

Here we go… (and thanks for taking the time to ask)

Perhaps the USS Constellation, under Decker, discover the Doomsday Machine during a survey mission at about the same time the Klingons discover it. A battle ensues with the Constellation becoming as derelict as in the TOS episode (this could be your cold open, in fact).

The Enterprise, on standard patrol as part of their five-year mission (perhaps established much like the Nibiru sequence, which was great Trek!), is called to investigate the disappearance of the Constellation, discover it adrift, and set about bringing it under it’s own power back to Earth (or towed).

Decker, who is a great captain, has brought up a very loyal and driven crew, and they are vengeful over the loss of many of their crew mates at the hands of Klingons (a tone pre-established in STID vis-a-vis Marcus) and possibly the Machine. The Klingons are sure to be upset at internal Starfleet matters bleeding over their borders, not the mention the semi-clandestine incursion on their home planet. Decker understands its potential, and his “Ahab-esque” personality creates a toxic command environment on the Enterprise, much like what is represented in the original episode.

Meanwhile, the Klingons manage to wrangle the Machine and use it, along with their fleet, to attack Federation outposts and colony planets (such as Sherman’s planet, perhaps). Federation intel gatherers and strategy analysts determine Organia is a possible next target. The fleet is assembled, but the fleet is scattered on various five year missions and other contingencies and can’t gather in time. The Enterprise (Decker OR Kirk in command) and the patch-worked Constellation is ordered to Organia as a small line-in-the-sand force to delay the Klingon fleet until the bulk of Starfleet can gather. (Note… there is a possible contrast to be drawn between the Doomsday Machine and the passive Organians… that both are wrong… that a balance can exist between those two philosophies).

The command struggle between Kirk and Decker persists (I’m thinking on the line of submarine mutiny films like K-19 or Crimson Tide. One line that strikes me as a tongue-and-cheek nod to earlier Star Trek is “Don’t you know a jailbreak when you see one!?”) Meanwhile the Klingon Fleet approaches, arrives, and battle ensues with Decker in charge…. with Organia then obliterated and eaten alive by the Doomsday Machine, all the while revealing a weakness in the device (similar to when the shuttle craft was rammed down the machine’s throat). That might even serve as a possible end to your second act.

Then, Kirk regains control of the Enterprise, after it’s been battered in combat with the Klingons off Organia. Decker is sent packing back to his busted ship and then towed back toward Earth where secondary plans are being drafted to counter the Klingon invasion. However, it’s determined that the Klingon Fleet and the Doomsday Machine have plotted toward Earth as well. Kirk and Decker both agree that the machine cannot enter the Sol system, much less reach earth. They extend olive branches and turn back to face the Klingon Fleet alone as two battered ships. A plan is drawn up to fly the Constellation into the maw of the Doomsday Machine, helmed by Decker, while Kirk provides cover against the Klingon Fleet (this gives us an opportunity to see Kirk operate in a space battle of at least comparable footing, which we haven’t seen yet and a key component to Kirk’s character abilities.) The Doomsday Machine is rendered inert by Decker’s action, at the cost of his own life despite plans to avoid that, and the Klingon Fleet is eliminated or driven off by last ditch combat by the Enterprise and the cavalry-esque arrival of the Federation Fleet.

824. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

819. Robman007

…Two films in a row in which Earth’s defense fleet and starbase have just gone AWOL when the villain comes knocking…

Did’nt you read the studio blub ahead of seeing the movie. No stinking comic needed. Khan (or Marcus) had already detonated the fleet!

825. WriterJWA - August 12, 2013

So why did post #824 get deleted? I’m kinda dismayed.

826. crazydaystrom - August 12, 2013

821. Robman007 -

“I think that line right there explains some of the issues with STID..way too many projects plus studio pressure = issues with film.”
__________

QUITE possibly!

“Perhaps he will learn with the 3rd film..or just stay away if he feels he can’t give the film the time it needs.”
__________

He’s staying away. He’s not writing the next one with K/O.

827. WriterJWA - August 12, 2013

Forgive me… I see it there. Not sure what happened. :-P

828. Keachick - August 12, 2013

#787 – Absolutely. I could not agree more with your post. Dr McCoy should have been there when Kirk died, demonstrating both the personal and professional respect and friendship that the four people were beginning to share with one another – ie Kirk, Spock, Uhura and Bones McCoy (ST’s “Fab Four”).

It would have also pretty much “mirrored” the TWOK scene where prime Kirk witnesses the death of his friend, Spock with Dr McCoy and Scotty present. The only difference was that Lt Uhura was not present in that scene, whereas she was there in STID. No big deal that she was included in STID.

829. Robman007 - August 12, 2013

823. Other Guy – August 12, 2013

Yeah, the domestic marketing department was rotten for this film. That description of the movie was horrible along with everything else domestic regarding promotion of the film.

830. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

823. Other Guy – August 12, 2013

From my above post…

Did’nt you read the studio blub ahead of seeing the movie… No stinking comic needed. < — not sure where this line came from… Khan (or Marcus) had already detonated the fleet!

831. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

Boborci?

Any comments as to why McCoy was not there at Kirk’s (temporary) passing?

832. Keachick - August 12, 2013

I want NEW stuff. You can say he was new because he was different (and he actually was and I liked it). However, I think it was another trip to the Khan well that wasn’t needed. Staying John Harrison would have been better (even if it was the same sleeper ship as Khan’s and was a different guy revived), or being Gary Mitchell would have been better.

If you want(ed) NEW stuff, then why are you suggesting that Gary Mitchell (from TOS TV episode) would have been a better character to use than Khan? Either people want new characters and situations or not…

I want(ed) new characters and places but Paramount/Supreme Court went with a revisioning of a favourite prime Star Trek universe antagonist, with a bit of a twist. How Harrison/Khan behaved in the end had to do with who he could be or perhaps had already been, at times, when he ruled his region of the earth – both loyal to his own/those who obeyed him and ruthless to others, especially once he got complete control.

#797/801 – Believe it or not, but I had written a scene in my story outline which I started writing this month four years ago, which dealt with your ideas in a small way. It also allowed, if filmed, a part for William Shatner to play prime Kirk again….ie younger Pine/Kirk meets older Shatner/Kirk.

Sometimes I do feel so sad, frustrated, ignored…but then I guess when I do write something a little *different*, bizarre, strange, I/it does make good troll food…:(

833. Aurore - August 12, 2013

@ 785. Basement Blogger – August 12, 2013
_______

You’re welcome.

Thank you again for “April in Paris”, Mr. Wong!

…The next musical break might be a Chinese song from a series I discovered years ago…

:))

834. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

Justin Bieber for CharlieX!!!

Yeah, I know.

835. Phil - August 12, 2013

^^^^ About as likely as Spielberg directing…..

836. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

832. Keachick

You are never ignored.

837. boborci - August 12, 2013

831. We wanted him to discover the tribble, and figured he would be too ping pongy if he was everywhere.

838. Phil - August 12, 2013

^^

Well, and as CMO of Enterprise, which just got the s**t kicked out of it he’s overseeing his staff, and multiple causalities. Captain or not, if McCoy was up to his elbows in another patient, it’s unlikely he would have walked away from a patient he could have saved for one he could not. That would have been McCoy’s KM test, BTW…..

839. Keachick - August 12, 2013

#837 boborci – Please excuse my memory, if it is failing me, but I seem to recall that Dr McCoy discovered that the dead tribble was no longer dead AFTER the dead Kirk had been brought to sick bay.

The last time I saw STID (my 4th time) was in late May – with my better half. BH understood, after seeing the film for himself, why I liked it so much. He liked it as well – his first viewing. There you go, Bob – for real!

840. Other Guy - August 12, 2013

re. 797. dmduncan

The science of death (that we know of, anyhow)…

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-08-electrical-signatures-consciousness-dying-brain.html

841. Jakell - August 12, 2013

@787 Nony

YES!! Thank you! A million times yes. During that scene I was like, ok wtf are Uhura and Scotty being shown for when Bones is obviously his best friend AND a doctor? There was no logical reason for Uhura to be down there besides the fact that she seemingly needs to be everywhere now, and Scotty was just kinda standing around. They are Kirks friends, but they not have the same emotional connection to him as Bones. Not even close.

It’s no surprise that more Bones is the most sought after thing for the new films, but I am surprised at how badly he was delivered this time around. Karl Urban is better than that, and Deforest Kelly DESERVES better than that. I didn’t feel any real emotional pull this time around with kirk spock and uhura. I hope the Kirk/McCoy/Spock triumvirate is focused on in the next film. Third times a charm :)

842. Keachick - August 12, 2013

#840 – I have just read the findings in the link you have posted here out to my BH. He immediately commented that these findings almost exactly correlate with what is written in the Tibetan Book of the Dead (more than 1,000 years ago by the Sage *Padmasambhava), which he has read several times. This book is like an instruction manual on how to die well and successfully pass into the next life (hopefully a good one). It is an integral part of the Vajrayana Buddhist understanding and belief.

Go figure.

*Padmasambhava, an actual person living between 700-800AD, was the one responsible for successfully bringing Buddhism to Tibet. He is also often referred to as being the “Second Buddha”.

843. Terry - August 12, 2013

@Boborci 193

Jamie Kennedy in “Scream 3″ said it best: “true trilogies are all about going back to the beginning [of the trilogy] and discovering something that wasn’t true from the get go.”

Since “Into Darkness” strongly implied a Federation-Klingon Cold War showdown in the third movie, perhaps it might be interesting to revisit something from the original film….Perhaps some unexpectedly left-over Red Matter from the original movie could serve as a MacGuffin of sorts, and/or some surviving 24th Century Nero-aligned Romulans could complicate the situation and unite Kirk and liberal peace-minded elements of the Klingon government against a common foe of sorts.

Question about “Into Darkness” (and sorry if this has been asked and answered by you already): what was Admiral Marcus doing on the bridge panel when Khan moves to attack him on the bridge of the Vengeance? Attempting to activate the self-destruct for the ship?

844. boborci - August 12, 2013

839 Keachick

you r right. that is why maybe we coulda had it both ways. We coulda done better there,

845. Ahmed - August 12, 2013

Bob,

Do you have an idea how long it will take for the script to be done ? What is the timeframe ?

846. boborci - August 12, 2013

845 ahmed

well, we obviously cant end up on the 51st anniversary!

847. MJ (The Original). - August 12, 2013

Bob, whatever you do, you sent the Enterprise into deep space. So please, let’s have some strange new worlds, and let’s not have then warp to Earth in like 5 minutes time. I don’t want to see Earth at all in the next movie, please.

And let the female actors do more.

Looking forward to it.

848. Ahmed - August 12, 2013

@ 846. boborci – August 12, 2013

“845 ahmed
well, we obviously cant end up on the 51st anniversary!”

lol, you remind me of “The Vorlon” in Babylon 5, they never give a straight answer to a simple question :)

849. Ahmed - August 12, 2013

@847. MJ

I will second that, no more Earth please. I want to see strange new worlds, planets that really different from Earth. Star systems that looks nothing like our solar system.

850. boborci - August 12, 2013

Ahmed

do you know the punchline to the old joke:

How do you make God laugh?

851. boborci - August 12, 2013

Make a plan.

852. Ahmed - August 12, 2013

@Bob

“Make a plan.”

lol, we have similar saying in Arabic about God & plans.

I hope that your “plan” will work out as planned :)

853. Hugh Hoyland - August 12, 2013

@boborci

Without giving anything away, do you have an idea who the villain will be?

854. Phil - August 12, 2013

^^^^

Whales and Vulcan half brothers.

855. Basement Blogger - August 12, 2013

@ 833

Aurore,

I’m just a Chinese redneck here at the buckle of the Bible belt, Cincinnati Ohio. Skip the Chinese music, I’ve got more western musical tastes. Since you’re French and I love jazz how about some Parisian cafe jazz? Love the sound of the accordion. Check out Marcel Azzola and Stephane Grappelli. “C’est un Gars.” (This version is rare; I think it’s out of print at least here in America..)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYggrVJnC8Q

You know if director Neil Blomkamp had listened to more cafe jazz, he wouldn’t have those super rich on Elysium speak French to demonstrate their elitism. . They would speak Klingon or something.:-) Well, whatever the super rich in the future are supposed to speak

856. Phil - August 12, 2013

@844. Not to sure that it would have mattered that much. There isn’t a good feel for the sequence of the passage of time, but unless the decontamination process finished up moments after Kirk breathed his last, I’d assumed that there was some passage of time before the body could be recovered. Also assumed that whatever de-con process was in place also made the body not to hot to handle..though there was no question Kirk was well done in my mind.

Now, for me, the lapse is, why would McCoy move a body to sick bay instead of directly to the ships morgue? Especially one that might still have low levels of radiation, and still during a crisis where injured crew were still being treated. It would make sense in the design of the ship that the facilities would be adjacent to each other, though.

Just a thought…

857. Navy - August 12, 2013

I bet an imaginary $0.25 that the Enterprise will yet again be outclassed by a larger more powerful ship.

We certainly couldn’t have the Enterprise finally cleaning house, maneuvering hard, using tactics and smoking 3 D7s all on her own.

858. Dan Uff - August 12, 2013

Why are the writers trying to cut and paste a story when there are THOUSANDS of books out there for inspiration and ideas for stories. I am sure that they could fit A BOOK STORYLINE into movie somehow. Or aren’t they that intelligent enough?

859. K-7 - August 12, 2013

@MJ: “Bob, whatever you do, you sent the Enterprise into deep space. So please, let’s have some strange new worlds, and let’s not have then warp to Earth in like 5 minutes time. I don’t want to see Earth at all in the next movie, please.”

Mr. Orci,

I agree with MJ. Can you at least commit here to covering a story away from Earth for the next movie? Thank you an advance for answering this question.

860. MJ (The Original). - August 12, 2013

@623 “I agree with this. Its a gross overstatement and outright lie whoever said it. The “top” critics even rate it at 67 percent on RT. Besides I’ve been told it doesn’t matter what the ‘critics’ think as they are subject to ‘group think’ mentality and attempt to shut down movies audiences would otherwise enjoy. And the users on Rotten Tomatoes are giving it a 73. Hardly “universally bad reviews” no matter which group you survey.”

No, no, no, no. There you go again, Curious Cadet. Shame on you!!!

What I said a month ago was that there are some movies like John Carter that most people like, but where “groupthink” among critics leads them to go completely contrary to what moviegoers like, and rate the movie very poorly, and unfairly. So, in a case like John Carter, there is a huge discrepancy in Top Critics rating and User Review ratings.

There is no such huge discrepancy regarding Elysium — the major critics and users are pretty much in agreement that Elysium is just an OK film. At that is tremendously disappointing, giving what the expectations were for this film. That is a fact — this film is underwhelming given what we expected it to be.

861. TreK_Fan - August 12, 2013

How about Neill Blomkamp? Elysium is a very good science fiction movie.

862. DiscoSpock - August 12, 2013

Trek Fan, I think Blomkamp is still too young and inexperienced. He got a chance with big money and name actors to do Elysium, and he blew it. The movie is average at best.

Maybe once he gets a couple more movies under his belt. Unfortunately, right now he is the Michael Cimino of sf movies — he’s good with a limited budget on art sf films, but can’t handle big productions yet. His direction of Jodie Foster was horrific — any more experience director would have worked with Foster to improve that character.

863. Marshall - August 12, 2013

@Yanks –

Ditto on Spock and Uhura. I’m beyond ready to see that mess go. Fingers crossed man…

864. Skaplinskli - August 12, 2013

I didn’t care for Elysium, not for its story or visuals, but because of the lousy editing. The jumping from one frame to another in rapid succession for 2 hours straight gave me a headache. The editing in this movie reminded me of the editing in another movie, Pandorum. Unlike Pandorum, however, Elysium was not an awful movie.

865. Marshall - August 12, 2013

@860TreK_Fan

I just saw Elysium today. Fantastic movie! Blomkamp is a great director, but he say he has no interest in doing Trek. Neill does films the way he wants, even if they won’t be huge blockbusters, thats not Trek anymore. It’s all about money and publicity.

866. MJ (The Original). - August 12, 2013

@861 @862

Agreed. Elysium just missed the mark. I am kind of shocked, given how good District 9 was. Blomkamp appears to be regressing instead of becoming the great genre director we had hoped.

Nope, no Blomkamp for Trek 2016 please.

867. JimJ - August 12, 2013

#832@Keachick: I think you missed what I was aiming at. I definitely prefer new stuff/ideas. However, IF they ARE going to bring back a character, at least make it someone who was a good guy at one time (Gary Mitchell was Kirk’s friend in the prime universe).

BUT, I prefer new ideas/threats/characters/situations. It was just an example. Not sure if you think I was attacking Bob, being a jerk, or what? I wasn’t trying to do any of that. I love where Star Trek is now. Haven’t felt this good since the end of Season 3 TNG…in fact, I think I feel better about Trek than I did then. I just feel badly that some people are lumping this movie (which I love) in with things like Nemesis, Final Frontier, etc.

My fears were realized anyway….Bob didn’t touch my comment about the Klingons with a ten foot pole! Makes me worry it’s gonna be the same result as Khan. But, knowing me, I’ll go and love it anyway-lol.

868. Disinvited - August 12, 2013

#840. Other Guy – August 12, 2013

Don’t forget:

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2013/07/a-glowing-blue-death-wave-envelops-roundworms-before-they-expire/

869. Garak's Pride - August 13, 2013

Just got back from seeing Elysium. Without given spoilers away, I will just say that it was an EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTING movie experience. Not at all what I was expecting.

870. Vultan - August 13, 2013

#863

It’s a moot point anyway. Blomkamp has already said he wouldn’t be interested in doing a Star Trek.

http://www.blastr.com/2013-7-3/why-district-9%E2%80%99s-neill-blomkamp-doesnt-want-direct-star-trek-3

871. Basement Blogger - August 13, 2013

The Battle of the Khans.

After viewing this video, there is a clear winner in the battle of the Khans. Benedict Cumberbatch is a wonderful actor and he’s great in Sherlock. BUT RICARDO ROCKS!

Here’s a dance scene from a movie which I think is “Fiesta.” He dances with legendary Cyd Charisse. Wow. If I had seen this before I saw Space Seed. there’s no way I would root for Kirk. :-) No wonder why McGivers falls for him. All hail the king of the Khans. Ricardo Montalban.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imxqup1_G9Q

872. Vultan - August 13, 2013

#867

Wonderful dancing. Thanks for sharing that, BB.

But I must admit I was uncomfortable watching a Mexican actor dancing to Latino music. What message are they sending with this? It’s so accurate, right in line with everything we knew about that culture and those characters from before. What will children think we they see that?

They should’ve gotten a British actor instead.

;-)

873. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - August 13, 2013

It looks like the publicity for the Japanese release of STID is well underway. We know Benedict Cumberbatch was in Japan recently to promote the movie, and I came across this caption for a recent picture from gettyimages:
“American actor Zachary Quinto speaks at a press conference for his latest movie ‘Star Trek Into Darkness’ in Tokyo on August 13, 2013. The actor is in Tokyo with English actress Alice Eve, US actor Chris Pine and film director J.J. Abrams to attend the movie’s Japanese premiere.”

Here’s hoping it does very well over there.

874. Yanks - August 13, 2013

@ 698. Marja – August 11, 2013
Sorry this reply goes so far back; I was away from my regular computer and couldn’t post this yesterday.

477 Yanks, your words are in italics below.
—————————————————————————————————

Can’t for the life of me figure out how to do or bold or italic thing here so I’ll just make a couple comments.

We’ve seen Spock & Uhura conduct themselves inappropraitely in the performance of their duties.That’s EXACTLY why this relationship needs to end. It’s not something you “get better at”. There are reasons why relationships in the chain of command are against the rules and we saw more than enough justification for those rules in STID. From both of them acting inapporpriately in the shuttle with Kirk, to Uhura remaining away from her post in tears almost…

You imply that that’s the writers fault, well the writers give us these characters. Not sure how that can justify your point of view.

To clarify, I didn’t have a problem with the Spock/Uhura relationship thingy before they ended up on the same ship. We could go into the “instructor/student” thing, but it’s not clear whether Spock was a professor for Uhura so all that would be speculation. Spock’s relationship with her DID influence his initial decision to not place her on Enterprise despite her proven skills, and then he was again influenced by changing that assignment when she pitched a fit. It was cute and all, but that was the first indication of bad things to come.

It’s also why Carol Marcus needs to leave Enterprise (if they intend on pursuing that relationship)

875. Yanks - August 13, 2013

@ 521. ironhyde – August 9, 2013
493 – Yanks!

Q is a good idea. But it needs to be treated properly. Not like “oh I remember Q was a smart-ass” and then trying to imitate that. Q is really the one that needs to be approached like Joker. You need to re-invent, while keeping the spirit. I would LOVE a movie with Q. I would love to see “All Good Things..” type sci-fi in a theatre. Unfortunately, I think i’ll turn into an x-men movie if you put Q in. I would love to see it done — but only done RIGHT. If not right (and I’m pretty sure they can assess their own capabilities as story tellers and writers) then jj et al shouldn’t go there.

—————————————————————————————————-

Agree. It would be difficult for sure, but as I indicated we don’t need to see him. That voice would be enough to be recognized by the trekkies and is good enough to please the “others” if done right. You don’t even need to identify him as “Q”.

Great way to test and prepare our crew for their 5-year deep space voyage.

Not sure we have a chance of seeing it though :-)

876. CJS - August 13, 2013

The saddest thing about Badger’s Star Trek story from the other night’s Breaking Bad is that it’s a smarter script than STID.

http://youtu.be/3M6yoeOglNw

877. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

870. Vultan

I wonder. Will we turn blue, too?

871. Basement Blogger

Shatner loved his performance, too! And is kind enough to throw in another KHHAANN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUrCB31SPv0

876. CJS

Watch it, CJS, or you will disturb some Trekkies here.

878. Allenburch - August 13, 2013

@boborci

Super busy here but enjoying the comments from you and the rest of the TrekMovie.com gang.

Just wanted you to know that all our friends and family loved Trek 2013. My wife liked it even better than 2009. Everyone seems to definitely want something brand new for an antaganist in the next movie.

“It aint the years. It’s the mileage.”

879. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

@ boborci

I hope you read this one and please don’t take it as an insult, because it is not meant as one.

I’m not sure how other Trek fans feel, but this is one that I’ve been thinking over alot….in your next film, please, please, please do not treat the Enterprise like a piece of garbage. I’m not saying you guys have, but the routine in Trek films, especially the TNG era, was to make the Enterprise an underdog that gets utterly thrashed.

One of the things that was enjoyable about the 2009 film was that you didn’t get the idea that the Enterprise was a wimpy ship that could be bested by small scout ship. Infact, other then that torpedo hit from the Narada, she was pretty badass.

It was just old seeing the Enterprise get throttled..again. In the original series the Enterprise was the baddest ship in the galaxy. There were space ships then there were STARSHIPS, which were special. They could level planets. The Enterprise could take on a fleet of Klingon ships.

Just keep that one in mind. Treat the lady good this next time around. Again, not a diss…just a thought and observation.

880. drum-van - August 13, 2013

@823

i love “the doomsday machine” and as well thought out as your potential story is, i want to see an entirely new story with the next movie. not alternate timeline twists on former plots. homages to the trek legacy are fine in small doses but this movie needs to break new ground in trek lore. i’m guessing the writers (bob, alex etc.) don’t want to have their legacy be that of “cover band” writers. “skyfall” pulled this off. trek 13 can too.

881. Aurore - August 13, 2013

@ 855. Basement Blogger – August 12, 2013
_______

Aaah, prejudices…

“Chinese music”, you say? What’s that?

I merely wrote “Chinese song”, you knew nothing about it, and yet, you still said; “Skip the Chinese music…”

….Spoken like a perfect Chinese redneck…appalling.

:)

882. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

880. drum-van

Trek-dittos.

883. Ahmed - August 13, 2013

STID got beaten by “Galaxy Quest” :)

———————————————————-
Ouch! Fans vote Galaxy Quest a better Trek movie than Into Darkness

Though it was a modest hit with critics and general audiences, the Trekkie community has largely been less-than-thrilled with J.J. Abrams’ recent Star Trek Into Darkness. But now, it,s suffered about the harshest indignity possible.

Fans at Creation Entertainment’s huge Star Trek convention in Las Vegas decided to rank every Trek movie from best to worst, and the results weren’t terribly surprising — except for one little bit.

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan came out on top, of course, but guess what placed seventh? Galaxy Quest. Yes, the epic Tim Allen and Sigourney Weaver sci-fi satire came in mid-way through the list, while Star Trek Into Darkness came in dead last at No. 13.

Ouch.

http://www.blastr.com/2013-8-12/ouch-fans-vote-galaxy-quest-better-trek-movie-darkness

———————————————————-

The Trekkies, in the Star Trek convention in Las Vegas, have spoken, STID is the worst Trek movie ever made with its incoherent story & dumb use of Khan.

884. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Way to go MJ, Phil and Red Dead.

Bashing me as a troll over and over for saying STiD was bad writing.
Looks like the Romulans are coming home to roost.

Thanks, #883. Ahmed. I believe it. I will take the heat for that now.

I just hope boborci can accept a Trekkie-Congress to evaluate what the Supremes think is good Star Trek.

No offense, boborci, but the Trekkie-Congress will have to meet to vote on your next story before filming if you want my next ticket purchase. Perhaps we could get a cheap discrete WordPress blog with an admin login. This could be the 1st Trekkie-Congress that gets to see a sample of ST’s next voyage before filming.

Why not? You guys thought a Trekkie-Supreme Court would work. But you only had two thirds of a needed ‘Constitutional’ Trekkie Enterprise.

That’s why you failed.

885. JimJ - August 13, 2013

So, Ahmed, where was this vote taken? In the restroom or the bar??? lol

886. mateo - August 13, 2013

OH…MY…GOD. Wow. DISASTER-IN-WAITING.

This makes my heart hurt and my blood boil. They’re just making Trek a generic franchise series with well connected hacks taking everything over. :(

887. Ahmed - August 13, 2013

@ 885. JimJ – August 13, 2013

“So, Ahmed, where was this vote taken? In the restroom or the bar??? lol”

No Sir, it wasn’t taken in the restroom or the bar. If you bothered to read the whole post, you would know that it was taken at Star Trek convention in Las Vegas.

“Fans at Creation Entertainment’s huge Star Trek convention in Las Vegas decided to rank every Trek movie from best to worst, and the results weren’t terribly surprising — except for one little bit.”

And here is another post from IGN

“Led by my pal Jordan Hoffman, who writes a column called One Trek Mind for Star Trek.com, the panel enlisted the help of the Trekkies (or Trekkers if you like) in the audience to determine the best and the worst of the Star Trek movies. Here’s how it all broke down in the end

Of course, Wrath of Khan was ranked number one in the end. But what I find interesting here is that the diehard fans apparently hate Star Trek Into Darkness, ranking that other Khan movie as the very worst of the series. This is definitely not in keeping with the general consensus of critics or the mainstream public. But if you want to poll actual, costume-wearing, get-a-life Trekkies, the Vegas con is the place to do it. And those fans have spoken.”

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/08/12/diehard-star-trek-fans-rank-the-best-and-worst-movies

888. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

I thought it was Galaxy Quest when I saw the Warp effect too. Perhaps the fans at the creation convention were not sure what they were watching..

See? You guys pick a white guy for a Khan, and then Galaxy Quest effects for the Enterprise.

It’s not hard to understand why we are so confused. This movie should have been a slam dunk.

889. mateo - August 13, 2013

GI Joe: Retaliation has a 28% on Rotten Tomatoes….

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/gi_joe_retaliation/

Por favor don’t do this, Paramount & Bad Robot!!!!!!!!!!!!

890. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

My friend had a great idea, yesterday.

Make a great Star trek film, that looks just like the original series that we all know and love, with all the actual character traits and cool Star Trek effects and plotlines.

Then just create a trailer that shows a lot of eye candy, T&A, bullets and explosions to bring in the mindless drones.

By the end of the day, perhaps the masses will learn what good a Star Trek really is like.

891. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

The above photo (orci_kurtzman.jpg) is starting to remind me of Star Trek’s version of Rumsfeld and Bush?

They are not really that different, if you think about it.

892. Phil - August 13, 2013

@888. …’It’s not hard to understand why we are so confused.’….

You seriously need to JUST speak for yourself. No one appointed you spokesman for the site.

893. Trekbilly@gmail.com - August 13, 2013

#883. — Beaten by Galaxy Quest, Star Trek V, Nemesis and insurrection? What kind of crack were those fans smoking?

894. Yanks - August 13, 2013

@ 883. Ahmed – August 13, 2013
STID got beaten by “Galaxy Quest” :)

————————————————————————————

Last…. wow.

If that doesn’t send a message, then nothing will.

895. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

893. Trekbilly@gmail.com

“Why does God need a Starship” beats out Cumby sayin’, “I am Khan.”

896. Curious Cadet - August 13, 2013

@883. Ahmed
” But now, it,s suffered about the harshest indignity possible.”

I do not consider getting beaten out by “Galaxy Quest” an indignity at all. GQ was a very well done movie, excellent writing, great acting, great directing, great effects, very clever, and witty. In many ways it is far superior to many of the Star Trek films.

But GQ is a totally different kind of movie. I might rank the Hudsucker Proxy higher than TWOK, for instance. It’s like ranking David Niven’s Casino Royale in with the rest of the bond franchise, or the Austin Powers movies, which best many of the Bond films in my opinion. There’s really just no way to do it fairly.

897. Curious Cadet - August 13, 2013

@893. Trekbilly@gmail.com,
“Beaten by Galaxy Quest, Star Trek V, Nemesis and insurrection? What kind of crack were those fans smoking?”

Aside form Galaxy Quest, I’m with you. STID was substantially better than Nemesis and Insurrection.

Clearly they are sending a message, or at the very least not voting objectively. This poll is not to be taken seriously.

898. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

@ 880…see my original post on 348 for the usage of the Doomsday Machine. Should only be to start the film off and it eliminates several problems, such as the “big ship of doom” and the nods to TOS, but setting the film off on an original “Indiana Jones” style adventure…

@897…yeah, those polls were not meant to be taken seriously. As much issues that STID had, it was not half as bad as 3/4′s of the TNG films or TFF. Those were just a number of butt hurt fans voting over and over again to make a point. Probably complained about past Trek while it was on the air as well…oh well.

Besides, those same voters at the convention who were polled about an “all star bridge crew” voted JANEWAY over Kirk and Picard as the Captain of choice. Right there, along with voting for Galaxy Quest in a Trek movie poll, made those polls questionable

899. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

It was also better then Generations. Generations had stupid plot points that made Into Darkness plot holes look small. The Nexus was the stupidest plot point in any Trek film. Why did Picard just go back a week or so before, warn his Brother and Nephew about the fire and arrest Soran on the spot by uncovering his hidden evil lair? Why did they HAVE TO KILL KIRK? No sense. Dumb….and why did the Enterprise not modulate their shield frequency. That was installed after the Borg invasion…besides, Alpha strike that Bird of Prey and your problems are solved. 70 year old BoP should be NO match for the flagship of the Federation, shields or no shields.

So…ID, with it’s issues and plot holes, still better then 3/4 of the TNG films.

900. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

I also find it really, really amusing that Trek fans continue to put Wrath of Khan as their all time favorite Trek film, yet use the excuse that “gene would have hated the new films..” hello, Trek nut jobs, Gene was on record as hating Wrath of Khan. He disliked the TOS films so much that he considered all the films to be non-cannon in whole or in portions….yeah, logical assumption my ass

901. Spock's Bangs - August 13, 2013

not surprised by the results of that poll. The fan base at that convention is the very same withering fan base that buried the franchise years ago with non-interest, yet still they cling to Picard’s tea sipping and yawn inducing 24th century storytelling hoping for more of the same Drek that sunk the ship to begin with! The mandate was to break free of those shackles. JJ did just that. He made Trek cool and made it successful beyond everyone’s expectation, with no help from the hater-brigade. And it pisses them off! lol Oh well. Star Trek has moved well beyond you, the haters at large. And it will continue to prosper in its new skin, in spite of you. And you can bet more is coming in 2016, you might as well get used to it!! Lol

902. Yanks - August 13, 2013

@ 897. Curious Cadet – August 13, 2013

Clearly they are sending a message, or at the very least not voting objectively. This poll is not to be taken seriously.

—————————————————————————————————

Maybe they wanted to “send a message”.

What? Why not take this poll seriously?

903. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

That type of convention is catered mostly to hardcore TNG fans.

LOL — what would you expect from hardcore TNG fans. These are the same people who pay $80 per season for blu-rays of baldy on a holodeck wearing tights or pretending he is a private detective. LOL

904. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

901. Spock’s Bangs

Agreed. I mean, trek fans are kind of responsible for the creation of new Trek. They proved with bad ticket sales and dwindling ratings that they were getting tired of “old” Trek. They failed to show up to Insurrection and Nemesis, stopped watching Voyager and Enterprise…you really think Paramount/CBS is going to bring new film makers in and tell them to “make them for the fans”…not anymore, they won’t make that mistake ever again. You bring in new film makers and turn the direction of the franchise into one that will appeal to the masses.

You’ll always have a portion of the fan base that will hate no matter what (they hated TNG when it came out, hated DS9 when it came out..actually used the same tired catch phrase of “it’s not my trek” on both shows).

I’m not saying STID was perfect..it was not. It was not that great in the final 1/3 of the film…but not as bad as those butt hurt fans made it out to be..not even close

905. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@888 “I thought it was Galaxy Quest when I saw the Warp effect too. Perhaps the fans at the creation convention were not sure what they were watching..”

Yea, just like when I first saw you post here, I though you were a moron.

But I was wrong. You are a moron AND and ass-hole.

906. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@884 “No offense, boborci, but the Trekkie-Congress will have to meet to vote on your next story before filming if you want my next ticket purchase. Perhaps we could get a cheap discrete WordPress blog with an admin login. This could be the 1st Trekkie-Congress that gets to see a sample of ST’s next voyage before filming.”

.,..and the human “WEED SMOKING” adventure is just beginning.

907. Ahmed - August 13, 2013

@ 903. MJ (The Original). – August 13, 2013

“That type of convention is catered mostly to hardcore TNG fans.
LOL — what would you expect from hardcore TNG fans. These are the same people who pay $80 per season for blu-rays of baldy on a holodeck wearing tights or pretending he is a private detective. LOL”

I guess you don’t like TNG or Captain Picard :)

As for the poll, the fans are simply sending a message that STID wasn’t as good as it should have. They are entitled to express their view as much as the ones who like STID.

908. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

MJ. Why?

909. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

897. Curious Cadet

Always a conspiracty, huh? DM, please take of you Trek-foil-hat and wake up.

910. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@908. Oh, did I hurt your feelings, troll? :-)

You are a negative jerk who says the same thing over and over with your hat for nuTrek here. And I’ve had just about enough of it.

911. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

“hate” not “hat”

912. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@907. I like some of TNG. But TOS and DS9 are the only Trek series that I really liked/loved without reservations.

913. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Really, MJ?

Not very specific. BTW. Your posts are a constant hate on everything I say. You should try and find some wisdom in what I write.

Especially my posts #891 and to a leesor degree, #895.

914. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

A word to the wise.

YOU BECOME WHAT YOU HATE.

So be careful, MJ, and know that your passions can control you in ways you might find unpleasant.

IDIC.

915. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@913. Yea, troll: really!

And your fake facade as the poor, misunderstood voice of wisdom crap isn’t fooling anyone.

You repeat the same thing over and over on STID. You have nothing new to offer us here.

REALY !!!!!

916. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

MJ. I understand the studio’s motivations better than you think. I am sure.

917. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@914

LOL. I am doing just fine loving Star Trek and despising trolls like you.

But thanks for the further condescension, troll.

Now go back and start repeating your STID criticisms again for the 90th time please, as your attempt to sound like some reasonable wise elder here is just not working. :-))

918. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

“I understand the studio’s motivations better than you think. I am sure.”

LOL — where do you come up with this shit? :-))

919. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Put it this way, MJ.

I would have walked off the project rather than let my name be associated with STiD’s message and stoyline.

Just like, Scotty did.

920. K-7 - August 13, 2013

MJ,

Just ignore this jerkweed troll, like most of us are doing. He’s not worth our time.

921. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

MJ. Question. If you can stomach it.

Are you a supporter of the Bush administration and WOT?

I’d say you are, cause you sure loved the double-dose you got with STiD!

922. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Up your”s too, K-7!!

Losers.

923. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

That’s why I say orci and co are not better than the bushes.

Their recent efforts have all just been a stupid waste of time, money and our collective futures.

924. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@919, I don’t believe you for one second. You are completely fabricating this backstory now, and NO — I DON’T want to hear your bullshit fake backstory that you were involved with Trek.

You are a loser who has nothing better to do than repeat the same thing over and over here for weeks on end — and most of us are sick of your troll game. GO AWAY!

925. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

MJ. YOU ARE WHAT YOU HATE!!!

And you can’t even see it.

Try not to hate people.

926. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@925. Oh, I can see it. Yes, you are making me behave like you here. I do in fact need a shower now after corresponding with the likes of you, troll.

So yes, congrats on bringing me down to your level, loser.

927. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@920 “MJ, Just ignore this jerkweed troll, like most of us are doing. He’s not worth our time.”

Yep — thanks. Good advice, K-7. He can have his last rant. I’ve got to go our anyway for the afternoon now.

928. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Y’know. Star Trek used to stand for a future hope.

Star Trek these days stands for kill your enemy at all costs and prepare for more darkness.

I can see why you (and others) are so angry.

MJ. Consuming Star Trek’s recent dark message, repeadily, over and over, these last few years has apparently made you (and others) into angry people.

Rise above the hate, learn to forgive, and you will be enlightened.

929. DiscoSpock - August 13, 2013

Hey Other Guy,

Are you trying to alienate everyone here? Your posts are devolving into silly stuff where you are coming across like you are Jesus or something?

You are making a fool out of yourself, guy.

930. Keachick - August 13, 2013

Other Guy – You really are an ass!

931. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

(NOT) Sorry. But this latest Trek has made me think deeply about how orci previously indicated that he believes in conspiracies, but then he piles those same garbage conspiracies and proaganda into his science ficton writing..

To me that is the worst part of STiD.

boborci claims to be against such actions as 911 and war on terror, but then he serves up a TWO movies steeped in it.

AND YOU GUYS EAT IT UP?!

So, yes. I can say with authority, as a proud free citizen of this country, who everyday said the pledge of allegiance growing up. that boborci and company are Star Trek’s very own and personal Bush and Rumsfeld in trekkie-sheople clothing.

Star Trek had a hopeful fictional future that I could go and lose myself in, But now, everytime I watch Trek I am taken back to our countries darkest day. And you guys are all happy with that? And I am troll?

And if you guys can’t handle that, THEN EXPLAIN WHY I AM WRONG instead of jumping on me with the ad hominem attacks.

EXPLAIN yurselves. At least I have.

932. Keachick - August 13, 2013

#928 – Wrong. That was NOT the message of STID. I refer you to the Kirk’s speech at the end of the movie, where he clearly laid out that what you have said as being false, NOT the way to go, to behave…Pay attention!

933. Barney Fife - August 13, 2013

Other Guy: You’re dull and boring. Please repeat your insights over and over and over and over on some other website.

934. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Keachick. That speech was a dollar short and a day late.

But nice try. After all the death presented as entertainment, that excuse rings hollow to me.

935. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Way to debate. I don’t expect much more out of a Fife, though.

936. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

932. Keachick, I will look for the same message at the end of Kick A_s_s

937. Keachick - August 13, 2013

It seems that CP, ZQ, AE and JJ are indeed in Japan right now –

http://www.justjared.com/2013/08/13/chris-pine-zachary-quinto-star-trek-into-darkness-japan-premiere/

#934 – “After all the death presented as entertainment, that excuse rings hollow to me.”

As opposed to all the other violent movies screened where all the gore and death is not presented as entertainment? read my sarcasm.

Confirmed – you are an ass. The fact that you would use the movie’s positive, moral message as fodder for your trolling speaks more to the kind of person you seem to be than anything about me or the movie makers.

The film contained the message that shows that the participants have actually learned more about themselves and how they can be better people/society and know who they need to be able to avoid in order not to fall into the same trap.

But I guess it was just too *subtle* for the Other Guy…

938. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

You are easily led, Keachick.

Great a positive moral message out of the death of, NO Sacrifice might be a better word. A moral message out of the sacrifice of thousands? The death of millions? No, wait. THE DEATHS OF BILLIONS!!!

THE DEATHS OF BILLIONS.

You are wrong thinking that these movies are made in the spirit of Trek’s vision of hope for the future, as long as we sacrifice billions to get there.

939. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

BILLIONS. MJ.

940. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

BILLIONS. Barney Fife.

941. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

BILLIONS. Red Dead Ryan.

942. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

BILLIONS. DiscoSpock.

943. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Not my cup of Trek.

944. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

boborci and company. Change your dark ways and make a lighter-hearted Trek next time.

945. crazydaystrom - August 13, 2013

Wow! Haters and haters of haters. Trek Philosophy? No, of course not. Not at all.

IDIC, folks. Why not?

946. Basement Blogger - August 13, 2013

@ 903, 905,

MJ,

A few things here. Trolls want you to lose it. They’ll look for any pressure point to get you to snap and maybe start cussing. How do I know this? I’ve been trolled when someone started writing lies about me. I came this close to writing some cuss words. Trolls also want you to keep posting. they want you to try to get the last word. And they’re not interested in the last wordy. One tactic is to say crazy things or as I’ve pointed out to lie about you.

It’s okay to expose a troll and to refute him. But then you’ve got to stop. Use guerrilla warfare. Hit. Stop. If you go back and forth, that’s what the troll wants. By the way, there’s more than one troll on this thread.
Don’t feed the troll.

I totally disagree with you on Picard as Dixon Hill in “The Big Goodbye.” I’m a fan of film noir and that TNG nailed two genres. Science fiction and film noir. There were small things in the show. Light and shadow ala film noir. Check out shadow cast by the blinds. Classic. What about the ideas? Characters search for the Item. There are times these MacGuffins represent existentialism. The Maltese Falcon. Or maybe it’s something else. Kiss Me Deadly. And the use of the standard, “Out of Nowhere” for the music was brilliant. That a comment about the holodeck. It’s also allegedly the harmonic changes to the original Star Trek show. And the whole, “are we real theme?” by the holodeck characters again refers back to themes of existentialism. All of this wrapped up in an entertaining episode. Star Trek, The Next Generation episode “The Big Goodbye” won a Peabody Award for Excellence in Television. According to Wikipedia, it’s the only Star Trek show to win a Peabody. Link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Goodbye

I find it interesting that you like both Abrams Trek and DS9. They”re polar opposites. Abrams once called Trek “a little talky.” DS9 is very talky. And that’s okay. Abrams Trek has this ADHD energy. I like both. But I prefer my Trek to be the smart type that the NBC executives thought was too cerebral.

By the way, there have been criticisms on Star Trek Into Darkness as being a crazy conspiracy movie. Folks, Star Trek has covered Federation officers doing bad things to justify the ends. SEE DS9 episodes, “Homefront and Paradise Lost. ” Season 4, numbers 11 and 12. And of course there was Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country.

947. RAMA - August 13, 2013

I I didnt want Klingons in ST3…till I saw the Klingons in STID..way to change things up. I think ST3 could do worse than have a large scale fleet confrontation, something we’ve never seen with Klingons, and certainly not in a movie. STVI blew this chance because of the budget. I can see Kor, Kang or Koloth or all involved somehow, perhaps some political intrigue followed by dire consequences, all brought about but the actions of Admrial Marcus and Khan. Perhaps followed up with a peace gesture of some kind at the end of the movie. It would also be nice if maybe the writers looked to a few classic scifi novels for some epic background, possibly Brin’s Uplift series’ race relations in the universe, and others.

948. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

946. Basement Blogger

I hope you are not referring to me as a troll.

But basement blogger, seriously, billions dead as a plot for ST09 and the uncounted number killed in STID?

Sorry, but I do not recall ever seeing an entertaining story involving such a death toll coming from a leader in the Federation.

Was it really neccessary to get so dark with these last couple Treks?

Again, I AM NOT A TROLL. And it kinda sucks having to say that. If I have behaved troll-like, with out provication by other here, please opintit out for me.

949. Craiger - August 13, 2013

Something got to be up with Anthony he has never been gone this long. What’s it been now three months? I don’t think he likes Trekmovie anymore.

950. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Troll

One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. ‘you’re nothing but a fanboy’ is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

Troll? Like the posts above from;

905. MJ
906. MJ
910. MJ
915. MJ
920. K-7
924. MJ
926. MJ
927. MJ
929. DiscoSpock
933. Barney Fife

951. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. —Albert Einstein

952. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

939. Other Guy – August 13, 2013

Um, billions died before in Trek productions…how many untold Billions died during the dominion wars? During Borg invasions? What is wrong with destroying Vulcan, a fictional planet no less, in a fictional universe, to create future story telling ideas? This version of Khan was “discovered” as a direct result of what happened to Vulcan, which would unsettle any government. Remember, in 2259, the Federation was not around very long. Infact, in the Prime Universe, the actions and discoveries by Captain Kirk and the Enterprise went a long way to cementing the Federation as a power.

Everything happened as a result of Nero..a far more militarized universe (don’t think that the Klingons will just sit still after losing that many starships in the first film, then getting embarassed by Khan in the 2nd)..with a Federation that had some issues recovering from losing a founding member planet….the end result of this alternate reality will probably be very much like TNG, just with some minor differences

953. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

Hell, billions alone died when the Dominion turned on the Cardassians. Between what the Klingons did and what the Dominion did to Cardassia and it’s people, does that make old Trek “evil”…??

954. Basement Blogger - August 13, 2013

The best definition for troll comes from Wikipedia.

“a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[6]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

It’s not just ad hominem attacks. The purpose of the troll is to get other posters to respond by posting inflammatory comments. Ad hominem attacks can be a tactic. But saying crazy or inflammatory things in a forum is trolling. For example a troll might want to say in a Chicago Bulls forum, “Michael Jordan was the worst basketball player ever.” That’s not an ad hominem attack but is designed to inflame the community.

Trolls also like to pick on particular people. If they detect you’re a passionate person, they’ll look for a pressure point. The purpose is to get you to snap.

Trolls are smart. They know the topic and look for ways to start fires. They are usually fans of the topics in the forum. But what trolls want is the ability to anonymously sit behind a keyboard, become condescending and laugh at the victims of their trolling. It’s mean spirited, snobby and anit-social.

955. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

“Sorry, but I do not recall ever seeing an entertaining story involving such a death toll coming from a leader in the Federation.”

When was Nero a leader of the Federation? I’m pretty sure, as fallen as Admiral Marcus was, that he did not murder billions. Khan didn’t even manage that. Spock prime did not murder anyone. He failed to save Romulus…shocking that he failed considering, illogically enough, that no Trek character in the TNG era ever failed at anything, except Ensign Kim (fail of a career)…..

Gotta keep that in mind…Nero killed billions. Marcus went bad shit nuts in his persuit to protect the federation and Kirk and his ship stopped both of them…with a slight assist from Khan, who paid for his crimes in a civilized manner consistent with how punishment is handled in Trek.

956. crazydaystrom - August 13, 2013

947. RAMA
“I didnt want Klingons in ST3…till I saw the Klingons in STID…It would also be nice if maybe the writers looked to a few classic scifi novels for some epic background, possibly Brin’s Uplift series’ race relations in the universe, and others.”
__________

I would not at all mind seeing more of the nuKlingons well, RAMA. As long as they were handled well and not JUST there as an excuse for explosions and phaser fights.
And Brin’s Uplift Saga is excellent science fiction. Star Trek could certainly do worse as inspiration. Actually I’m dying to see that series made into films.

954. Basement Blogger
“The best definition for troll comes from Wikipedia.

“a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), EITHER ACCIDENTALLY (caps mine)[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[6]””
__________

Jeez! Hope I’m not considered a troll around here.

957. Disinvited - August 13, 2013

#893. Trekbilly@gmail.com – August 13, 2013, 897. Curious Cadet – August 13, 2013, 898. Robman007 – August 13, 2013, 901. Spock’s Bangs – August 13, 2013, 903. MJ (The Original). – August 13, 2013

Whatever those fans are: a Creation Con in Vegas takes major coin to attend. As MJ not so politely noted, those polled are subset of Trek fandom that can afford to drop major wads of cash in pursuit of the love of Trek. CBS and Paramount would have to be major corporate fools to not want to try to court that disposable income in some way and sure do have to pay attention on some level of their product’s marketing. If their number is as small as MJ suggests, they may not need them for theater ticket sales, but they definitely want to market to them in some other ancillary form with limited edition overpriced gift boxed sets.

So I’m sure that corporate pays attention to that poll on some level. Maybe just not on their mass market campaigns, but with narrow marketing, definitely.

958. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

957. Disinvited. You should repost that in the convention article, as well.

959. NuFan - August 13, 2013

Judging from the pics, most of them will not be alive long enough to keep the franchise going long term.

960. DiscoSpock - August 13, 2013

Hey Other Guy,

Why are you calling me a troll ???

In my post to you, I simply offered:

“Hey Other Guy, are you trying to alienate everyone here? Your posts are devolving into silly stuff where you are coming across like you are Jesus or something? You are making a fool out of yourself, guy.”

How is this being a troll?

You continuously come to this site, an internet site which is primarily focused on the new JJ-Trek series of movies, and offer nothing but repetitive comments about how both of these movies are horrible Star Trek movies. That is what a troll does — a troll is someone who shows up and ruins an internet site for all the participants.

That is what you are doing here whether your realize it or not — you are ruining the fun and good natured discussions of this site for most of us here. Your and mean, negative, and come across as just trying to make fun of the two JJ-Trek movies that this site is devoted to.

That is why most of us can’t stand you here. That is why we are all hoping that one day you will just go away here. You have made this site not fun anymore for me, which is why I have hardly bothered to post here in the past several weeks.

You are ruining this site for me, and I suspect many others as well.

Go ahead and make fun of me and call me a troll in response if you must, but this is what I am taking from the experience of your participating here. I can’t stand to read your asinine posts and quips.

961. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Yeah, I’ve seen those episodes. But Sorry, I do not recall ever seeing an entertaining story involving such a death toll coming from a leader in the Federation! Yes, like Adm. Marcus in this latest movie. But it’s an obvious theme that has continued from the ST09 picture.

That was the thrust of my post. You see, boborci and company WERE very clever in their approach to this story.

I simply wanted to point out that not only were we probably double-crossed, or even perhaps triple-crossed on 9-11, but that some writers of these new Treks had an agenda to encompass some of the 9-11 conspiracies in the latest movies. But in doing so, they tell a story about Marcus leading a Khan by the leash, but are actually saying that THEY THINK it parralells OUR recent leadership, the bushes, and by implication the obams, and with the continuation of the war on terror, have pulled the wool over all our eyes by manifesting an fake enemy, like a Khan, or like a bin laden, or Al Qaeda.

The writers seem to say that the war on terror WAS NOT nesscessary, and then offer their solution that it was just two guys. And they do it with a holier than thou approach (sound familiar MJ?).

The writers are saying they know better.

Look. It seems like our rights don’t matter anymore, that our leaders can now do wahtever they want without consequence. I am opposed to that form of direct control over our lives. I say it’s fascism. When a government can control what the media is showing us in the form of propaganda, to sell more “defense” contracts, or topple governements (how many are we up too?).

But then when Star Trek comes along and thinks it is SO above the political machinery by showing us the similar events onscreen in the form of Star Trek. I will call it out as much as I do with real world events.

You see, I am not as sure if 9-11 was an inside job. But, I do know that boborci has said that he thinks 9-11 was an inside job. But where is his “Proof?” Certainly there is no eveidence that has been demonstrated in court with a judge, or in the court of public opinion.

I think the latter is what boborci was hoping would bear fruit with his Trek storyline. That there would be more dicusion of 9-11, or broader acceptance that our “Leaders” mnight be able to “Pull” such a thing.

But, I say, I think there is little room in a single Star Trek movie for such a message, when in fact SOME OF US ARE STILL WONDERING of the actual truth in the matter. Or some of us have lost loved-ones due to the endless wars. Yes, endless.

Maybe some form of critical mass will be achieved with those who have been forced to consider such acts while trying to enjoy some time with Kirk, Spock and company. But as booborci has mentioned there is a thing called cognitive dissonance that makes it VERY uncomfortable for some to face certain facts.

But let’s face it. 9-11 and the waron terror and fals flags was put forward as a plotline in Star Trek, so you guys shuld not be pissed that some here (ME) are constantly trying to bring it up for intelligent discusion, here, of all places..

962. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

960. DiscoSpock – August 13, 2013
Hey Other Guy,

Why are you calling me a troll ???

In my post to you, I simply offered:

“Hey Other Guy, are you trying to alienate everyone here? Your posts are devolving into silly stuff where you are coming across like you are Jesus or something? You are making a fool out of yourself, guy.”

How is that intelligent discussion about my topic, DiscoSpock? How?
The Troll title sticks.

963. DiscoSpock - August 13, 2013

…and one more thing, Other Guy,

It is absolutely outrageous to me that you would stoop so low as to use Einstein’s quote regarding the holocaust, where 6 million people died, to try to score points in your argument with MJ here on this little Star Trek site.

That’s just pathetic.

964. Jonboc - August 13, 2013

Such drama! Almost better than cable…almost. lol

965. K-7 - August 13, 2013

Disco,

Advice #1: Ignore the troll

Advice #2: Don’t let his negativity stop you from posting on this site. In fact, post more often to offset his loser/crap posts.

966. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Great discussion, DiscoSpock!

I guess it does not occur to you that as many have died in the middle east since the 1990′s. Yes. Probably over 6 million.

But as long as they are not jews, huh, DiscoSpock?

Your getting better at this. Keep it going. Keep facing facts.

967. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

K-7. You take it in the shuttle bay… ALL NIGHT LONG. UUHHHHNNN!!!

You deserve no more than that.

968. DiscoSpock - August 13, 2013

@966.

BTW, I am Jewish.

May you rot in hell for those remarks, racist.

I will never correspond with you again on this site. Good riddance, sir.

969. Barney Fife - August 13, 2013

I agree with K-7. It’s best to ignore the troll.

970. Ahmed - August 13, 2013

Guys, we are on a Star Trek website. Lets not turn it into a political arena.

971. Red Shirt Diaries - August 13, 2013

Me as well = just ignore this troll.

972. Marja - August 13, 2013

Once again, apologies for such a lengthy post; I was absent yesterday for urgent family reasons.

729, Smurfy, I will download, simply b/c I don’t have a Blu-Ray player. I’m a bit angry that Blu-Ray is the only format to have extra features and appears to be the only format to be released on DVD. I prefer to play DVDs than to take up computer memory with downloads. A great scheme [as usual] by Blu-Ray to get middle- and upper-middle class people to buy Blu-Ray players. Oh wait, they probably already have them, along with iPads and iPhones. So it may be Paramount hoping to get me to pay for download and later, a plain ol’ DVD. Don’t think I’ll buy it twice.

As for those of us who are below middle-class in income, it’s a big “screw you” from the industry, as usual. As a retired veteran who joined the Coast Guard because of the humanitarian ideals in “Star Trek,” I am disappointed in Paramount. I checked the price of Blu-Ray DVDs

& yr 747, yeah, but Spielberg might just do it [I hope!] as a mentor & friend of JJ’s – and for a lark. After all it is the 50th anniversary of a science fiction “universe” highly regarded by scientists and nerds the world over! As the founder of some of the best science fiction/fantasy movies and series, he might find it fun to do Trek!

745 Ahmed, I hope you guys will come up with an epic story for the 3rd movie. And by epic, I don’t mean bigger action scenes but rather a great sci-fi story that explore Star Trek universe in a way that wasn’t done before.

Amen brother!

764 Trekboi, When I saw that it looked like a re-telling of TOS’s “The Cloud Minders” I decided to skip it : )

773 Exverlobter, The next great adversary are the Klingon, the Federation is caught off guard (Future Pearl Harbor?) and the only way to stop the Klingons is to use Khan against them.
In the course of the movie Khan slowly moves from the Dark side to the Bright side of the force, pardon the pun, and in the end Khan is the saviour of the Federation. That would be a nice twist.

I’m afraid that first paragraph is probably going to be the gist of the next movie. As for Khan being the developing character and “savior of the Federation” while Kirk and crew remain Static characters, and secondary saviors, I don’t think that would fit the Trek universe very well. I do like the idea of Khan moving from dark to light, but he should remain a secondary character. I felt he got way too much screen time in STiD.

814 Bernie BB, ROFL! Thanks for sharing. Remember in “Mad Men” Season 5 when the author-cum-Krishna wrote a script and tried to get the TV ad guy to send it to Roddenberry? Lots of people were “tripping” that season!

819 Robman, Something truely different would have been making Khan help the crew of the Enterprise as well as come out a “good guy” of a sort and instead of ending with a Spock/Khan fight, end with a Khan assisting the Enterprise and Starfleet against the rogue Admiral Marcus. I mean, in the haste of the final act, what happened to local fleet and starbase. Two films in a row in which Earth’s defense fleet and starbase have just gone AWOL when the villain comes knocking…

An opportunity missed, for sure. Would have been great if Pike survived to lead the defense of Earth and take a fleet up against that giant Vengeance. Really too bad.

841. Jakell – August 12, 2013

@787 Nony

YES!! Thank you! A million times yes. During that scene I was like, ok wtf are Uhura and Scotty being shown for when Bones is obviously his best friend AND a doctor? There was no logical reason for Uhura to be down there besides the fact that she seemingly needs to be everywhere now, and Scotty was just kinda standing around.

Agreed! Bones SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE. But Jakell, I find your words “no logical reason for Uhura to be down there besides the fact that she seemingly needs to be everywhere now” rather tiresome. I’m really weary of people dissing the inclusion of Uhura in the films as an important character. I was reassured somewhat by your statement They are Kirk’s friends, but they not have the same emotional connection to him as Bones. Not even close. I do agree with this.

810 T’Cal, I want the 5 year mission to begin. I want a solid antagonist who is a match in most every way to Kirk including intelligence, ethics and tactics. I want a moral dilemma for Kirk & Crew that puts them in a damned if you do/don’t situation. I want smart dialog (the “sex with farm animals” line from the first film was appalling) with relationship development between the main cast so that the third film is not the last film. While I like the occasional Easter egg, I want a fresh story. Finally, while this story continues to unfold in the theaters, I want an ensemble cast weekly tv series telling another Trek tale. Yes Yes Yes!

Think “Balance of Terror” and the totally great “Das Boot”! With a Romulan captain who disputes the direction of his government. Hot diggity!

Perhaps the Organian treaty could be between the Roms & Fed this time : )

God I hated that “sex with farm animals” thing, especially from Uhura. Yecchh. Not something very witty, as I would expect from a classy woman with great intelligence.

973. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

All,

I want to apologize for letting myself take the troll’s bait and lower myself to his sick level earlier today. It won’t happen again.

974. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

957.

Put yourself in the role of a Paramount/CBS studio suit. These guys don’t get Star Trek. Never have, never will. They don’t understand it, they don’t know how to market it. Yes, they see the large amounts of cash that fans pay for these conventions, but that does not matter to them, not when it comes to a motion picture/television franchise. They see the numbers that old Trek posted towards it’s end, with these same fans who are more then willing to drop a good dime all in the name of their hobby. They see that these fans tuned out and those who did not were not enough to turn a profit.

They also see what is out there for all to see…society is full of “ADD/ADHD” kids AND adults (who were kids during Treks big run during the start of the PC era) who have zero attention spans and are equalling BIG BUCKS for films that take advantage of that lack of attention span/discipline whatever you want to call it…a series like Star Trek, in the eyes of these suits, is no longer profitable as it once was. Old fans proved that and movie going audiences nowadays are proving that by making these last two films the most profitable of the entire series….

So, yes, I agree…but that’s not going to change a suits demands when the movie starts coming along. What will change their minds is the idiotic survey’s they did in the foreign markets in which movie going audiences wanted “more action, less Trekky type scenes”….as much as I hate to point it out for all to see…the lack of interest in old Trek when it was on the air, lack of new views and the fact that we have turned into nothing more then a hyperactive, non-disciplined bunch of narcissitc crybabies who can’t handle anything thought provoking in a summer block buster, have sealed the fate of future Trek productions..

975. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

And for the record, racism has no place whatsoever on this web site. Let’s hope that Matt checks in tonight and takes care of this situation.

976. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Disco, can’t you see that I do not want ANYONE to suffer.

Quit being so selfish.

977. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Yeah, MJ. Then we will feel safe again.

978. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@974 “They also see what is out there for all to see…society is full of “ADD/ADHD” kids AND adults (who were kids during Treks big run during the start of the PC era) who have zero attention spans and are equalling BIG BUCKS for films that take advantage of that lack of attention span/discipline whatever you want to call it”

If that is really the case, then why have most of the movies this year that have been “designed” for this supposed “brain-dead” audience, done so poorly at the box office?

979. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Care to tell me where I was racist?

980. Garak's Pride - August 13, 2013

Other Guy,

Your anti-Semitic remarks are unacceptable to me and others here. That has no place here – period.

981. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

972. Marja

The only thing I found remotely appauling regarding the 2009 film was the fact that it took 4 years for a sequel to come out. Someone should have lost a job over that debacle. You have a franchise that made HUGE amounts of money and was being compaired to Christopher Nolan’s Dark Knight saga..and it took you 4 years to release the next film? In today’s brain dead, hyperactive society that is the equivelant of 20 years.

THAT was a travesty. I can deal with goofy “farm animal” lines alot better then hearing another round of tired and useless technobabble that dominated the TNG era of Trek. Might not have been the best line ever, but it was not cringe worthy.

Back to my original point…a sequel, with JJ or no JJ, should have been released 2 years later at the MAX. Paramount/CBS should have promoted the crap out of this new franchise, including merchandizing, ala Lucas film or Marvel with the Avengers, and expanded this new universe instead of getting into a pissing contest with Bad Robot and showing yet another example of studio suit IDIOCITY by thinking folks would have brand confusion by promoting the new universe as well. Why not do both?

So, instead, it was a universe that will only exist in new films instead of being fleshed out and a sequel that had a good idea, yet was rushed into a mess of plot holes and a oddly rushed final act.

Good job, Paramount/CBS. Good job…..oh, and letting Abrams get away with promoting his new toy in Star Wars while Into Darkness was still in production…clueless, dumb..stupid studio suits.

982. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

978. MJ (The Original). – August 13, 2013

Simple…nothing was new…and the very brain dead films in Iron Man and Fast and Furious did well in the box office. While yes, they are marketed for the brain dead majority in society, that brain dead majority also wants something new, unless it’s the Marvel franchise films that is.

Star Trek Into Darkness, while not on the level of “Trek fans”..was not the dumbest film I’ve seen all year. Iron Man was dumb. Fast was dumb. No doubt Captain America and Thor will be equally dumb.

983. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

and when it did come to new ideas, such as the Will Smith/Tom Cruise promotion vehicles…folks are getting sick of those two and the self indulgent action flicks they do…again, the truely brain dead, hyperactive in society want to go see comic book flicks and movies about racing cars and breaking the law…

984. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

Where? What remarks?

Seriously.

It’s OK to kill foreigners for twenty-five plus years, but referencing a quote from Einstein about stoppng “those who do evil,” is out of bounds.

When it comes to resisting a never ending war against Iraqis or Afganis, or Syrians, or Yemens, or Libyans, or Eqyptians, or whomever you call a terrrorist? If that is YOUR FORM of religion, killing for hates sake, or revenge, then count me out.

You can call me racist, but at least I abhore death, hate and suffering.
Seriously, some of you are led around by the nose.

985. Garak's Pride - August 13, 2013

@980 “Care to tell me where I was racist?”

You said: “I guess it does not occur to you that as many have died in the middle east since the 1990′s. Yes. Probably over 6 million. But as long as they are not jews, huh, DiscoSpock?”

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in 2011 said: “Who used the mysterious September 11 incident as a pretext to attack Afghanistan and Iraq, killing, injuring, and displacing millions in two countries with the ultimate goal of bringing into its domination the Middle East and its oil resources? … They view Zionism as a sacred notion and ideology. Any question concerning its very foundation and history is condemned by them as an unforgivable sin. However they endorse and allow sacrileges and insult against beliefs of other divine religions.”

You are keep great company here. ;-)

Yea, if not intended as racist, your views are certainly insulting to a lot of people here. I think you would be well advised to just apologize and move on. You can’t really expect people to just accept this poop that is coming out of your mouth.

986. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

“You can’t really expect people to just accept this poop that is coming out of your mouth.”

Sure he can — LOL — that is Other Guy’s modus operandi.

If people are upset and bringing out their pitchforks, he’s happy, and he’s being successful in his trolling mission here.

I’ve learned my lesson — I let him get to me once, but never again.

Fool me once, shame on you…fool me twice, shame on me.

987. Robman007 - August 13, 2013

Geezus…sometimes Trek fans can go WAY overboard in the drama department when it comes to complaining about something they don’t like when historically, Trek fans are never 100% satisfied…has JJ Abrams really taken that much a shit in your cereal that you guys gotta stoop to using holocaust references to describe the films, throwing bizarre 9/11 conspiracy angles and calling each other racist without really knowing the other or what their intent was?

Seriously……

988. Red Shirt Diaries - August 13, 2013

How about if we nickname Other Guy:

“Ahmadinejad Guy”

:=)

989. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

985. Garak’s Pride

You know what Garak!

I’ve changed my ways. I’m giving up on my belief that we should not be shooting to death all those that hate the jewish religion.

Sure.
FULL STEAM AHEAD!
KILL ALL THOSE BASTARDS!!!
DEATH TO ISLAM!

Happy, now you sick fuk?!

You know, I got children that I do not want to grow up and fight your foolish religious wars. Keep breaading you special religious form of hate. When someone from another country actually does threaten my country, I will be there shooting along with you. But until they do, I will stay at a state of readiness to defend my country to the last day. But to carry on a war for 25 years? Do you guys see whats going on?

It’s the hate the keeps the killing going. Perhaps we should TRY and stop hating each other? What a thought?

Oh, but I am sure I will be told there is no reasoning with an islamic because they are all radical terrorists? So we SHOULD all kill them.

I for one, would like to TRY a different path, than one filled with generational HATE.

990. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@987. Robman, well said, dude!

991. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

988. Red Shirt Diaries

You are a TROLL! Like it?

992. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@989

WOW!

Did that dude just really say all that?

The wheels are coming off his wagon now. :-(

993. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

992. MJ

TROLL ON!

994. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

AMAZING you guys can’t argue with any of my thoughts.

Put up some facts you can be proud of discussing.

Or, better thought. LEAVE!

995. DiscoSpock - August 13, 2013

For the record,

THE HOLOCAUST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT. THERE IS NO EQUATION OF CONVENIENCE TO RELATE THEM.

Bringing up the Holocaust like this is immoral and insulting to peoples’ intelligence.

996. Marja - August 13, 2013

787 Nony, I’ve been saying for a while that I’d like to see a Quartet now, to parallel the old Trio; Kirk and McCoy as best friends and mutual support/challengers andSpock and Uhura as a couple with the same dynamic, and the four interacting. Your points are great … but I don’t want a return to the Trio. I hope the writers keep the Quartet.

790 Disinvited and
838 Phil, I agree. Scott could’ve called McCoy to say Kirk was in mortal danger/dyinng and McCoy, in the middle of surgery, could have said roughly [eyes gleaming briefly with emotion], “there’s nothing I can do for him now,” and gone right on with the urgent surgery. It was idiotic to show everyone standing still in Sickbay – it should have been a-bustle with all the injured coming in, with background patients’ comments, “Oh my God, is that the captain?!” and maybe staff doing brief double-takes with pity, moving on, continuing their emergency work. For all we know this could’ve been written and filmed and left on the cutting room floor b/c of their goal to keep the movie to two hours. One of the tenderest scenes in ST2009 was McCoy moving from patient to patient, quietly and compassionately caring for them. The expression and body language Urban used were perfection.

801 Nony, It’d be great to have repercussions from Kirk’s death … It’d also be great to have repercussions from his “miraculous revival” from death.

823 writerJWA, I like your idea a LOT. I do worry about Decker “taking over” the movie as Khan almost “took over” STiD. But would the Organians even BE wiped out? I certainly wouldn’t want them to be. With all the darkness on display, it’d be great to see some Neutral Good going on, and cause for reflection by Starfleet, “do two bads [mutual war with an enemy] equal good?”

829, Robman, Oh, how the US marketing of STisucked big time. Let us count the ways o_O

856 Phil, Yes, it woud be so nice to have a reference for the passage of time in both Abrams Trek movies: I’m still puzzling over how all that stuff in ST2009 appeared to take ONE DAY.

Even if they resort to the schlocky “Starfleet Headquarters, 28 hours later” kind of thing it would help, since exposition would be clumsy and apparently would take too much precious time.

863, I disagree. The Spock/Uhura romance is a wonderful thing, though awkwardly addressed in STiD, because of time constraints, I think.

874, Yanks, You and I fundamentally disagree on the Spock/Uhura thing. I did not like the way their discussion had to be shoehorned in between all the action sequences in the trip to Kronos scene. It would have been much better in a minute before they departed, say, as they were changing for the mission. I don’t know for a fact if the *writers* were entirely responsible for the scene being done the way it was, or if they were trying to save time and money on filming a separate short scene at the behest of the director or producers. In any case, having seen the other Spock/Uhura scenes they’ve written, I took issue with this one.

Other people are using it as an excuse to throw the entire relationship out, perhaps b/c they want a return to the “glorious old days” of the boys’ club of TOS.

I’ve said before and I say again, we must agree to disagree on the Spock and Uhura relationship. For me it’s a welcome addition to Trek.

You keep saying “it needs to end”
and I keep saying “it should continue.”

Who will triumph? Only the writers know for sure.

858 DanUff, a BOOK storyline would be great, but hard to telescope into a two-hour movie. A book storyline would serve a TV series fantastically well, and I’d love to see Orci/Kurtzman write a Trek TV series – and would love to see it with THIS CAST yes please!

997. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

YOU FREAKIN BROUGHT UP THE HOLOCAUST, FREAK!

998. Garak's Pride - August 13, 2013

#997 “But as long as they are not jews” is what YOU said.

Just think first next time before saying stupid shit like this, OK?

Are you so obtuse that you can’t see how you might hurt people with such remarks???

999. Basement Blogger - August 13, 2013

Okay let’s get back to Star Trek and have some fun. You might have missed this new Trek video when I posted it at 814. Thanks Marja for reading my post. This type of video is usually reported but …

Breaking Bad’s Badger has a crazy idea for a Star Trek script i in the premiere episode. It’s all inspired by creator Vince Gilligan (X-Files) who is a Trekker. Vulture actually animated Badger’s crazy Trek story. By the way, I don’t watch Breaking Bad so don’t ask me any questions.

From Vulture, here’s the animated video of Badger’s crazy Star Trek script. Enjoy.
http://www.vulture.com/2013/08/breaking-bad-badger-star-trek-story-animated.html

1000. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

998. Garak’s Pride – August 13, 2013

#997 “But as long as they are not jews” is what YOU said.

Just think first next time before saying stupid shit like this, OK?
Are you so obtuse that you can’t see how you might hurt people with such remarks???

Yeah, I see that. But that was NOT my point. How Am I suppossed to know Disco was jewish? I did not.

I was just trying to point out that perhaps the endless wars were not soley americas provication.

1001. Other Guy - August 13, 2013

My Apologies, Disco Spock. I was not trying to hurt your feelings.

1002. Red Dead Ryan - August 13, 2013

Other Guy,

You’re lucky Anthony no longer cares about this site, or else he’d ban your a$$ permanently. Hopefully Matt takes note of your postings and deletes them, or bans you.

1003. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - August 13, 2013

@999. Basement Blogger – August 13, 2013

Just watched that video, and I’m certainly laughing. Thank you.

1004. Other Guy was... TrekMadeMeWonder - August 13, 2013

OK. I got it.

I will leave.

So, if your hating me, then your hatin the creator, cause I never lied. Except for my screen name. Sorry, Again. Always the truth. I will quit posting, since so many here have hated my words.

I was not trying to be a hater either. Ever. In fact. I always told you guys the blunt truth as I saw it. WITHOUT CENSOR.

1005. Marshall - August 13, 2013

@ Marja

“863. The Spock/Uhura romance is a wonderful thing, though awkwardly addressed in STiD, because of time constraints, I think.”

A wonderful thing in YOUR opinion, of course. Now it has become the worst thing in mine. While not bothersome at first, it is now the #1 thing I’d like to see go. Mainly for reasons that Yanks has already stated (very well I might add) but also because Spock with a girlfriend just always felt off. I’m not a fan of “emo” Spock and Kirk and Uhura being needy for emotions from him just make me roll my eyes.

I want the S/U relationship to end, but also for Kirk and Spock friendship to evolve more like TOS. No name calling and Kirk accepts Spocks need for logic and to be stoic. Also I’m not feeling all the violence Spock shows.

I guess I just have a lot of Spock problems mostly lol

1006. JKP - August 13, 2013

Wow. Lots of comments here.

Personally, I want to see something totally new. How many times can one crew save the earth?

Have them go out someplace far and distant. Have Kirk fall in love with someone he shouldn’t. Have Kirk, Spock and McCoy have to agonize over some major decision that impacts Kirk’s love. Throw lots of action into the middle of it. Make Scotty more serious like he was in TOS.

That would do it for me.

No Klingons, no Khan, none of the same old stuff we’ve already seen just with a new twist. I don’t want a rehash of what I’ve known for 50 years, I want something new to add to then pantheon.

One of the things I was so excited about after ST09 was we had a blank canvass. It was all new again. I got my favourite characters back (albeit with slightly different yet good changes) and was looking forward to them exploring.

STID was a bit of a disappointment for me because it was Khan. I like the little homages to the old stuff thrown in as filler and background, but I really don’t want the old stuff front and centre.

So – make it fresh and original – no revisioned TOS (and certainly no TNG) stuff.

And focus on the relationship with KSM!! Not just Kirk and Spock. They beauty of TOS was that triumvirate’s interplay. Bring it back in a new story with new creatures / threats / etc.

1007. Craiger - August 13, 2013

I don’t think you can do anything fresh and original anymore with Trek can you? Basically Trek a starship exploring the galaxy. They tried to change it by setting Trek on a Space Station but how long did that last before a starship was brought in. How many times has that been done? I guess we can tell if people still like a spaceship series when that new spaceship series called Infinity but that sounds like Trek meets Farscape.

1008. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - August 13, 2013

@1004. Marshall – August 13, 2013

I infer that you would prefer the new movies be set in the Prime Universe :-)

I’m personally satisfied with an Alternate Universe take on things: where some things are the same as they were in the Prime Universe; and other things are different. If (when) I get nostaglic for TOS and the TOS movies, I just rewatch the DVDs.

I do realise that everyone has a different personal reaction to the new movies. I am happy with the direction in which the character developments have been taken, and feel they are consistent with both the fundamental characterisations as set out in the Prime Universe, and with the different environmental factors contributing to the characterisations in the Alternate Universe. It’s akin to a study of nature versus nurture…

Although I’m still not happy they decided that imploding Vulcan was a good thing to do…

As for Spock’s violence in the Alternate Universe – Kirk in particular knew very well how to push Spock’s buttons in TOS – for Spock’s own good, of course.

1009. Li'l Shat - August 13, 2013

@1005

This is exactly how I feel. I don’t understand why they went to so much trouble to throw off the weight of old canon in Trek ’09, only to dip right back into it in the sequel. Personally I blame Damon Lindelof, but I don’t really know what any of them were thinking.

That is not to say that I did not enjoy STID, I did. I was just disappointed that–of all the things they could have realized–they chose to play it safe and stick with something that had already been done.

Something new, please. Really new. And yes, get McCoy back in the Big Three where he belongs. I think these new actors are fantastic, but it’s frustrating to see the new McCoy sort of sidelined when he could bring so much into the relationship. Karl Urban is a fantastic actor and I swear, sometimes while watching him I think he’s possessed by the spirit of Kelley. There is no Big Three without Dr. McCoy.

In my opinion, the people behind this new Trek have things backwards. They seem intent on shaking up relationships between the original characters while shyly clinging to the stories that have already been told. Instead, they should preserve the relationships the original characters had but expose them to entirely new, fresh adventures. I at least think that would be much more fun and interesting to experience.

1010. Keachick - August 13, 2013

In relation to STID, the quote by Einstein had no relevancy because, in order to stop evil, you have to know that it is going on in the first place. Admiral Marcus was building up advanced weaponry in secret. It was actually his daughter, Carol Marcus, who suspected all was not quite right which is why she mispresented herself and then tried to find out if what her own father (along with members of Starfleet like Captain Kirk) was doing was OK. Spock and Scotty as well became suspicious because of Marcus’s not so legitimate orders. Kirk then realized that Spock could be right and insisted on following Starfleet protocol over the orders of one senior official.

The story showed that our protagonists, upon seeing what appeared a wrong, attempted to correct it, even if it meant that the captain could have faced a court martial afterwards for not strictly following Admiral Marcus’s orders. They did not “do nothing”. I doubt that Einstein would not have been referring to the actions of the crew of the Enterprise when he made that statement quoted above.

1011. Nony - August 13, 2013

@996 Marja

I agree with the ‘quartet’ concept! It creates symmetry (which is always good), and interaction between Kirk, Spock, Bones and Uhura could be very interesting; I’d like to see what Bones and Uhura make of each other (especially given Bones’ antagonism with Spock). The idea of Kirk/Spock/Bones being the three facets that make up a complete person only needs to be reworked a bit to accommodate Uhura — what I’ve seen floating around Tumblr is something like Spock=mind, Bones=heart, Uhura=strength, and Kirk=soul (i.e. integral to, underlining, and affected by them all). Sort of like those Disruption viral videos, but changed around a bit and broadened to include Bones. I quite like that.

At the same time, though, I think the trio as a self-contained entity is a really special and iconic thing that shouldn’t be done away with entirely. It’s all a matter of balance and careful writing to keep all those relationship balls in the air, having the three-person dynamic and then emotional alliances sort of shifting with the four-person dynamic and then shifting again with the whole crew dynamic. (Ahh, I love thinking about this stuff.)

1012. Mark - August 13, 2013

@479 & 480 Aly

YES. I agree 100% with everything you’ve said. I still can’t believe how many people begged for more Bones and he has yet to take his place amongst the trio. What is this? Star Trek is Kirk, Spock and Bones in EVERY universe. Gene created them as a team for a reason.

And Spock and Uhura? Lol yea, I dont need to say anything because it all already has been said here. I’m not even a little sorry to say its past time for it to go. STID has killed any small hope of me even tolerating it.

1013. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

Can’t we all just grow up now and say that in the 21st century, yet alone the 23rd century, that we are just beyond the idea that it has to be 3 white men being the lead in Star Trek.

Sentimentality is all in good, but I want this franchise to at least go a bit beyond the 60′s necessity of 3 white guys and everybody else…or if you include Scotty…4 fracking white guys and everybody else.

I think adding Uhura and making it a Big 4 is just fine. The way Uhura was written in STID though was a step backward from Trek 2009 — her “hissy fit” on Spock was silly, and Orci and company should be ashamed of themselves for going seixst like that…or maybe Damon was responsible for that as well as the silly Alice Eve underwear scene.

Expand your social horizons, people. It should not be three white men anymore leading Star Trek. That is just sending the wrong message to new fans of Star Trek.

1014. Li'l Shat - August 13, 2013

@1013

Well then, just make Kirk an asian geisha, Spock an hispanic gay man, and McCoy a black terrorist.

It’s no less than what they did to Khan in STID, and then it’s no longer three white guys “leading” Star Trek! Your social horizons will have been expanded, and we’ll all be getting the “right” message!

1015. Mark - August 13, 2013

@1013 MJ

Adding Uhura is fine, but if you’re gonna make it a team of 4, it better be a TEAM OF 4. Bones is just as important as Uhura (in fact more so to many) but if they are gonna be the emotional canvas to Kirk and Spock, who are the real stars and heart of the franchise, then they deserve the same amount of screen time and development. Which is NOT what they’ve shown so far. It’s been Kirk, Spock and uhura with Bones in the backseat, and that is unacceptable.

I have nothing against Uhura is they wanna raise her status in the franchise, but I DO have an issue with how they’ve treated Bones and the fantastic Karl Urban.

1016. Li'l Shat - August 13, 2013

@1013

” It should not be three white men anymore leading Star Trek.”

Then just make Kirk an asian, Spock an hispanic, and McCoy a black man.

It’s no less than what they did to Khan in STID, and then we’ll be sending the right message to the new fans.

1017. Basement Blogger - August 13, 2013

My problem with elevating Uhura to more prominence is that it takes away from McCoy. They can do the pon farr thing all they want. Was Spock-Uhura a calculation to appeal to more women?

McCoy has and is part of the troika. Kirk-Spock-McCoy. I have always loved McCoy. I agree with him most of the time. He may not win the argument but his heart is in the right place. Remember McCoy saving the old lady with the kidney problem in Star Trek IV. Screw changing the timeline. McCoy is a passionate man. Plus he gets the best lines. Remember this exchange from Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Kirk: Bones, there’s a… thing… out there.
Commander Leonard ‘Bones’ McCoy, M.D.: Why is any object we don’t understand always called “a thing”?

In one line, McCoy espouses Star Trek philosophy.

1018. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@1014

Mark, I agree with you. Bones was short-shrifted in STID. That is the writer’s fault. They even make that joke I didn’t like about him using too many metaphors — that was lame, and showed to me that the writers didn’t have many ideas on how to use bones in STID.

1019. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

@1016. “My problem with elevating Uhura to more prominence is that it takes away from McCoy.”

I don’t thnk so. The problem you are getting to is really a poorly written screenplay. Trek 2009 and The Avengers show that you can have more than 3 leads and still give everyone very meaningful parts.

STID didn’t do nearly as good a job as Trek 2009 in this regard. The one exception was Scotty — his role really increased this time around, and he (along with Spock) carried the day in espousing Trek philosophy.

1020. Ash - August 13, 2013

@1016
“Was Spock-Uhura a calculation to appeal to more women?”

Probably, but it had the opposite effect to THIS woman.

I agree about McCoy. Pushing him out of the trio is a disgrace, it’s not about “omg three white men? For shame! That’s just not appropriate these days” it’s about disrespecting and seemingly disbanding a team that millions grew up with and idolized.

It’s like if I told my little niece that in 50 years when they remake Harry Potter they are gonna kick Ron out of the trio. She would be pissed.

1021. MJ (The Original). - August 13, 2013

“It’s like if I told my little niece that in 50 years when they remake Harry Potter they are gonna kick Ron out of the trio. She would be pissed.”

So you niece would also enjoy the Amos and Andy show then. Or perhaps, Song of the South?

You niece would want reboots of those shows to be just as in the original version???

1022. Phil - August 13, 2013

Man, someone is waaaay off the reservation tonight.

Is there anything relevant to Trek going on here to be discussed without Other Guy running into the room with a can of gas and flares…

1023. Ash - August 13, 2013

“So you niece would also enjoy the Amos and Andy show then. Or perhaps, Song of the South?”

Wow. Out of line and unnecessary. I always enjoyed your posts MJ and found you to be fair to most everyone here. Guess I was wrong.

“You niece would want reboots of those shows to be just as in the original version???”

No, but she would at least like to know that the characters and team she loved are still together. It can be a reboot but still have the same heroes.

Your comment about my niece was disgusting. Because I said she would be upset if the Harry Potter team was changed, she would enjoy blackface? What are you thinking saying that??

I’m taking a break from this site for awhile.

1024. Basement Blogger - August 13, 2013

@ 1020, 1022

MJ, what is the matter with you? Ash’s comment about kicking out Ron of the Harry Potter troika has nothing to do with a racist stereotype. I would agree with Ash’s niece. If they kicked Ron out of the Harry Potter troika she should be pissed. And yet you go and somehow try to equate that years ago there was a racist stereotype of Amos and Andy therefore Ash’s niece would support that because it’s canon.

Here’s the problem with your logic. Ron, Harry and Hermoine are not a racist or sexist stereotype. They are not now and fifty years from now will not be. Messing with that, messes with the canon. Amos and Andy were racist stereotypes years ago. And today they still are. Unless Ash’s niece is a racist, she is not going to support that racist stereotype.

MJ, if you want to buy this site, you can’t be this incendiary. We can have disagreements. Just because I support the Kirk-Spock-McCoy troika doesn’t mean that I support white male dominance or I’m a sexist. Though there’s one guy on this thread that thinks I am a sexist. By the way, I’m Chinese American and if you’ve read about my adventures in bars, you would know how I feel about angry white men. Regardless, you can’t attack other Trekkers and expect them to come here if you purchase this website.

Ash, I’m on your side on this one. We may not agree but I will try to be friendly. Please take a short break and come back.

1025. Jakell - August 13, 2013

“It’s like if I told my little niece that in 50 years when they remake Harry Potter they are gonna kick Ron out of the trio. She would be pissed.”

So you niece would also enjoy the Amos and Andy show then. Or perhaps, Song of the South?
—————————————————————————————————-

WoOah. Talk about a comment coming out of nowhere. Let me check my math…

Liking Harry Potter+wanting HP team to stay the same= racist?

Lets not throw around accusations of racism so easily now, ok. I’m a WOC myself, and even I can say this was a WILD jump to make.

Sorry Ash. Don’t get scared off, I get what you mean.

1026. Skaplinskli - August 14, 2013

I would also like to see a tv series or miniseries with the new actors. It’ll never happen. Television would be a “step down” for these big Hollywood stars who are used to working on a movie and then having months off to do as they please. Television is usually a grueling, day-by-day affair which often means actors having to memorize lines late into the night (or so I’ve read..), and I can’t see them wanting to do that either. And I believe that the 4-year delay between the last 2 movies was, at least in part, due to the actors themselves not wanting to be type-cast as Star Trek actors. I just don’t believe any of them would go for it, or perhaps *more* relevantly, that anyone would PAY for them to do it.

In contrast to many of the posts here, I liked the last 2 movies, however 4 years is too long. I don’t believe a cerebral, thinking-person’s, historically-minded Star Trek screenplay would necessarily translate well to the big-screen, even if they throw in some space battles to make it exciting. I enjoyed the spectacle of the last 2 films and wasn’t as concerned about plot inconsistencies, rehashing, etc., as some of you. Our Star Trek world never looked as great as it did in those 2 movies, though. They can’t afford to do that on tv.

We need a new tv series. Sci-fi seems to be more popular than ever now. I think it would be interesting to go forward in the timeline (not unlike the jump ahead from TOS to TNG), where anything could be the new reality. Trying to go “back” or “start over” didn’t work for Enterprise that well (although the series, for me, ended on a very high note), and the rebooted movies have invited so many problems that you all have been discussing. A new series set in the future could be just the thing to truly re-awaken the franchise.

All I know is that 2 movies per decade is not going to satisfy my jones for Trek :)

1027. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

@1022 @1023

Sorry if my meaning came across wrong. I was merely trying to show an extreme example of how over time the perceptions of what is a stereotype changes. The three white males leading Star Trek may be sentimental to all of us today, but they are a product of what was essentially extreme favoritism in casting for White Male actors in the mid-1960′s. That is a fact.

Sorry if I did a poor job explaining my point. I apologize to Ash to involving his niece in my poor wording of my point.

Let me take the Ashs’ niece Harry Potter example slightly differently. What if, in 50 years, a new Harry Potter reboot has Hermoine played by a female Chinese actress. Would (or should) Ash’s niece get all upset about that?

That is more towards the point I was trying to make.

1028. K-7 - August 14, 2013

MJ,

Harry Potter is interesting. It would have you believe that in the entire parallel universe of “magic people” every single person is white, where in the parallel real world, and including Great Britain, people of multiple colors abound.

When you think about it, that is pretty disturbing. You’d think that Rawlings could have at least put a couple non-white people in the series; and if not, then one would hope that that lily white predominance could have been corrected in the movies?

This is eye opening — I never really of thought of Harry Potter like this before. Thanks for bringing this up.

1029. Disinvited - August 14, 2013

Maybe this is sticking up the “profit” situation?:

“Since late 2012, Hollywood studios haven’t seen a dime returned from a slew of movies generating big grosses at the Chinese box office, including blockbusters Skyfall, Man of Steel and Star Trek Into Darkness.”

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-studios-havent-been-paid-594939

“The delay in payments — totaling in the tens of millions of dollars for some studios — revolves around a 2 percent luxury tax that the China Film Group is trying to pass on to the movie companies.”

Apparently some resolution:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/mpaa-chief-christopher-dodd-announces-605084

So maybe we’ll get ST 13 greenlight confirmation after that check clears?

1030. Keachick - August 14, 2013

Are you talking about the three main ST TOS characters – Kirk, Spock, McCoy or the actors who played the characters?

The characters Kirk and McCoy were of Anglo-Saxon/Northern European origin but Spock was part Vulcan and part of whatever he inherited from his human mother. Amanda appeared to have a similar ancestry as Kirk and McCoy. The Spocks should actually have a darker, slightly greenish complexion, given that Vulcan’s blood is supposed to be green – copper based as opposed to red – iron based. However, both Spocks never looked that way.

1031. Mark - August 14, 2013

@1026 K-7

“Harry Potter is interesting. It would have you believe that in the entire parallel universe of “magic people” every single person is white, where in the parallel real world, and including Great Britain, people of multiple colors abound.

When you think about it, that is pretty disturbing. You’d think that Rawlings could have at least put a couple non-white people in the series; and if not, then one would hope that that lily white predominance could have been corrected in the movies?

This is eye opening — I never really of thought of Harry Potter like this before. Thanks for bringing this up.”

I’m guessing you have never actually SEEN the Harry Potter films?

Just because the main 3 characters are white doesn’t mean there aren’t different races in the series/films. No, not every single character is while. Cho Chang (Asian), Blaise Zambini (black), and Padma Patil (Indian) to name a few. That is actually more than you get from most films. Is that “eye opening” enough for you?

I have no idea what point you or MJ were tying to make, although I am glad to see he as apologized for involving Ash’s niece. There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep the race the same as canon, (if only they could have done the same for Khan) what we should really be focusing on is creating NEW, important characters for minorities.

1032. Marshall - August 14, 2013

@ K-7

Umm…there ARE non white people in the Harry Potter films. Quite a few actually, of many different ethnicities. Or are you just complaining about the main 3 characters?

There is nothing wrong with keeping the characters the same ethnicity there were originally given. We should CREATE new, great characters for POC, not change original ones.

1033. boborci - August 14, 2013

931 other guy

Fascinating/hilarious/understanable.

I’ve seen you run the gamut of reactions as you grapple, honestly, with some uncomfortable realities. It could drive anybody crazy, and I salute you for wrestling with it .

Your confusion is best demonstrated by your denunciations of conspiracies by likening me to Rumafeld and company as a conspirator engaged in propoganda. You can’t denounce conspiracies with a conspiracy.

1034. Basement Blogger - August 14, 2013

@ 1025

I don’t think Ash’ s niece would get upset if Hermoine was played by a Chinese actress. It’s not about race,. it’s about the character. Read what he said. If Ron got kicked out of the Harry Potter troika then she would be upset.

The whole Kirk-Spock-McCoy troika is not about the actors who play them. It’s about the troika and their relationship. We want to have Kirk, Spock and McCoy the main focus. That has nothing to do with white men playing them. I’m not upset with the show “Elementary” with Watson being a Chinese American woman. I know some English who aren’t happy. But the character of Watson was not thrown out. Her Watson is still Holmes companion.

There were great fun, touching moments and intellectual discussions with the troika. I’ll paraphrase what Harve Bennett said about it. Spock was the logical one. McCoy was the passionate emotional one. Kirk was somewhere between. They were great friends who cared about each other. See McCoy sacrifice himself in “The Empath.” And what about McCoy’s intellectual sparring with Spock? Reminding Kirk about the morality of things. “A Private Little War.” Or McCoy getting the last word in “The Journey to Babel.” The fact that they are three men has nothing to do with it. It was the relationship.

1035. Ash - August 14, 2013

@1031 Basement Blogger

Yes. Exactly. Thanks for the back up.

@1025 MJ

I understand your meaning now. Apology accepted.

Also, just FYI to both of ya…I’m a SHE. Not a HE :)

1036. Basement Blogger - August 14, 2013

@ 1030

Bob Orci,

Don’t waste time with him. He’s a troll. Everyone here with diverse opinions agree on one thing. Other Guy was trolling. These guys say crazy things to start a frenzy or they might attack one person.

It’s 5:30 a.m. here. If you’re on the West Coast, you must not be able to sleep. Can’t sleep so I’m here playing L.A. Noire on my XBOX. If you haven’t played it and like film noir, I strongly suggest it. Some of the mission-stories are fantastic. Oh… and John Noble is in the game. The man is awesome.

1037. Baby - August 14, 2013

@ MJ, K-7 and ASH,

Where do I begin with you guys

You know who I blame for the trio mess? GENE RODENBERRY HIMESLF.

I believe this is one of the fatal flaws of Gene Rod. He should never have cast 3 ….let’s even forget they are white. He should never have cast 3 males as leads in the first place.

I don’t exactly know what inspired Gene to create Trek but if you go as far back as other space operas and sci-fi series, the most popular been FLASH GORDON, who in my opinion had the first golden trio. Flash had 2 companions. Dr Zarcov and Dale Alden. One man, one woman and this was in the 1930′s.

This is to me( also in my opinion) is one of the reasons why star wars edges out TOS Trek. Lucas avoided this fatal flaw by putting Princess Leia as a lead. The golden trio in star wars was Han, Luke and Leia and we all know how Leia is celebrated today as a true feminist and icon for women.

Gene, despite his brilliance failed to see that things would change. It is no secret that the women of today as just as important as men.

Am sorry but you people just have to accept reality. People can’t watch a film that is supposed to appeal to both sexes and all we see is the men calling the big shots.

Also , has it ever occurred to some that the reason why McCoy was and can be easily be replaced is because he was also a supporting character in the first place.

McCoy was always the third wheel despite him been part of the trio. The heart of star trek was always Kirk and Spock.(Shatner and Nimoy)

I have a question for you guys.Will you be happy if they changed McCoy’s sex and make him a girl like they did with Watson’s character in Elementary?

Maybe that would cheer some fans up and no one would have to worry about him been replaced by Uhura because Trek is desperately in need for a female lead.

Lastly the Harry Potter reference…

Am a huge Harry Potter fan and Potter does have black characters,

Kingsley who works at the ministry,

Dean Thomas, a good friend of harry and Ron,

Angelia who dates Fred and married George only after Fred’s death and there was

Blasie , a friend of Draco’s..

HP is not Lord of the rings. Since the Potter series takes place in a modern era , there were lots of blacks, Indians and Chinese people in the HP world, many where featured in the background films and where far more fleshed out in the books.

AND WHY BRING UP BLACK FACE????????

THAT IS SO UNCALLED FOR.

GEEZ.

1038. crazydaystrom - August 14, 2013

1018. MJ (The Original). -
“@1016. “My problem with elevating Uhura to more prominence is that it takes away from McCoy.”

I don’t thnk so. The problem you are getting to is really a poorly written screenplay. Trek 2009 and The Avengers show that you can have more than 3 leads and still give everyone very meaningful parts.”
__________

Correct! There’s no reason McCoy needs to handled the way he was in STID. Certainly not because of Uhura’s increased screen time. Your Avengers example is a good one of parts being well written for a large cast. Bones and Urban deserve better than what they got. IMO

1024. Skaplinskli-
“It’ll never happen. Television would be a “step down” for these big Hollywood stars…”
_________
I don’t think it’ll happen either but the truth is a lot of big ‘Hollywood stars’ are doing television these days, more and more each year in fact. Many have said they were attracted to the quality of the scripts and some actually find TV to be more condusive to their family life. And the money can be good. Star Trek on a cable channel as Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead are would be perfect for me. The current cast preferably, but another cast, and crew and for that matter if nescassary, will do.
__________

” I enjoyed the spectacle of the last 2 films and wasn’t as concerned about plot inconsistencies, rehashing, etc….
__________
I enjoyed the spectacle but AM concerned about those things.

1039. crazydaystrom - August 14, 2013

1034. Baby -
“I believe this is one of the fatal flaws of Gene Rod. He should never have cast 3 ….let’s even forget they are white. He should never have cast 3 males as leads in the first place.”
__________
I thought every Trek fan knew that Roddenberry DIDN’T “cast 3 males as leads in the first place.”

1040. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - August 14, 2013

@1036. crazydaystrom – August 14, 2013

Yep, if Roddenberry had had his way, there would have been a female in a very senior position on the Enterprise, but apparently the TV executives weren’t ready for it – hence the 2nd pilot…

1041. Yanks - August 14, 2013

OK, I’m for a change here.

Soooooo many good conversations going on here and it difficult as hell trying to follow them;

I think Trekmovie has enough participation to warrent some sort of basic message board.

All in favor?!?!?

1042. Curious Cadet - August 14, 2013

@1034. Baby,
“You know who I blame for the trio mess? GENE RODENBERRY HIMESLF….He should never have cast 3 males as leads in the first place.”

Let’s not heap all of this at Roddenberry’s feet. The network had a lot to do with it.

Recall, in the pilot, the three main characters were Pike, Spock and Number One. Boyce was a supporting role who had one important scene. And Nunber One called most of the shots throughout the rest of the episode. The women also wore essentially the same uniform as the men.

It was NBC who insisted Roddenberry get rid of Number One. They also insisted he get rid of Spock, but he fought to keep the only alien character. But even though he couldn’t keep Number One, he did manage to introduce minorities into supporting roles which were not present in The Cage, in opposition to the the network. At the time, I’m not sure which was most important if you could only have one or the other.

And, I think Roddenberry fixed a lot of those wrongs with TNG, introducing Yar, Troi, and Crusher as strong female leads. In the beginning, they usually had much more to do than Worf or LaForge, and even Riker.

So blame Roddenberry if you must, but I think it’s pretty clear it was never his intention to build the show around all men. If anything he wanted to elevate women above even what Dale Arden had been — which was at its heart Flash Gordon’s love interest (Even Leia was ultimately the prize to be won by Han or Luke). What Abrams has done is give us Dale Arden in Uhura, not Number One — and in that respect Roddenberry at least aimed a lot higher.

1043. Bamasi - August 14, 2013

1042 – Well said, Cadet. I couldn’t agree more.

1044. Skaplinskli - August 14, 2013

1038. Crazydaystrom

I hear you. I believe you when you say more actors are willing to do tv these days. I guess if their families lived in the city it would be easier for the actors to commute for a television role. I would settle for any new Star Trek show with any actors. I just don’t think they can do the kind of story that people expect from Star Trek, do it in 2 hrs, and make it financially successful without a lot of focus on action and special effects. I think Star Trek is best-served on a weekly basis with occasional huge-budget movies with the same crew — just like the old days. Since you already know the relationships of the crew because you watch the show, it’s easier to introduce more classic elements of StarTrek writing into a movie, while still having enough time to put all the action and effects in there that will also earn the movie money. I liked 09 and STID. They accomplished a lot in just 4 edited hours..

1045. Phil - August 14, 2013

@1024. Let it go, man. You’ll get an ulcer.

1046. Who cares - August 14, 2013

@1028. Dude I hate Harry Potter and even I know how wrong you are to say all the magical people are white, you are so far off base with that one that a blind deaf umpire would still be able to call you out.

They even have a large number of “little people” in the first film, including Warwick Davis (Wicket, Willow, The Leprechaun) and Verne Troyer (Mini-Me), which puts them a step above Peter Jackson’s LOTR movies in terms of inclusion of minorities, and yes little people count as one single minority group no matter their individual skin color. Now I’ll grant I can’t say if the casting was consistent across all of the Potter films, since I didn’t watch anything after number 2, but check imdb for Potter cast info, and you will see for example an actor named Alfie Enoch, who is in every single Potter film, and is not white, nor is he the only one.

Seriously man check you facts before you make statements, otherwise you “sound” like an idiot, and I know your better than that.

1047. Yanks - August 14, 2013

You guys that blame Gene for casting men….

eeeesh….

You need to go watch Voyager.

1048. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

@1046.

I am not a Harry Potter fan, and did not read the books. But, I did see each film once, and the finale (the only movie I really liked) about three times, and I can’t recall a single impression of seeing a person of color in those movies.

Oh, I grant you that you are undoubtedly correct, but they must have been minor roles — not major ones. Nothing memorable or major in terms of minority roles that I can recall.

1049. K-7 - August 14, 2013

MJ,

I recall one periodic black kid at Hogworts, and one Asian looking student — both hardly got any screen time across the series though, so I can understand why you don’t remember them.

You make a good point. While there are a few token minorities in bit roles at Hogwarts, if that really is suppose to be the parallel universe of magicians, then that word is vastly-predominately white. And all of its leaders are certainly white patrician types.

1050. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

Hey K-7,

And for their major magicians university of this parallel magic universe, the entire fracking faculty staff (at least all of the major ones that you see in the movies) is white people — see for yourself:

http://www.listal.com/list/harry-potter-characters-hogwarts-faculty

Who Cares,

What is your response on this? And please don’t tell me its some minor faculty member that got 15 seconds in movie #3…lol

1051. K-7 - August 14, 2013

MJ,

I recall that the Council of Magic was all white people as well.

1052. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

K-7, I’m pretty sure that the entire “group of badguys” shown meeting in the last movie were all white as well. I can’t recall one single person of color in the bad guy leadership.

1053. crazydaystrom - August 14, 2013

1044. Skaplinskli-
” I would settle for any new Star Trek show with any actors. I just don’t think they can do the kind of story that people expect from Star Trek, do it in 2 hrs, and make it financially successful without a lot of focus on action and special effects.”
__________

I wouldn’t go so far as to say *any* actors but any competent actors would be fine with me. There are a lot of them in Hollywood and the world for that matter. One wonders why so many crappy actors are constantly employed. (Well I believe I know a reason or two for that, actually).

But a truly great Star Trek film can be made that will satisfy HUGE numbers of fans, general movie goers AND critics alike. I’ve said here before, I really believe a BILLION DOLLAR TREK FILM is possible. Sure that’s an improbability that’ll take the right combination of things including tapping into the zeitgeist at the time. But it’s not an impossibiltiy. I remember how many people surprised me at being either closet Trekkies coming out or new Trek converts back when TNG was on the air. They seemed to be everywhere. This could happen again. And the fiftieth anniversary I think is a prime opportunity to have Star Trek on the minds of many. As others have said here this will be not unlike the Bond fiftieth. Paramount just needs to get their collective $h!t together.

Yeah a billion dollars would be a tough one. Definitely not expecting that.

And there WILL be the Star Wars factor…

And yeah a new tv show is so wanted and needed. Again I invoke great titles such as Breaking Bad, the Battlestar Galactica reboot, Mad Men, Dexter, The Sopranos, Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, American Horror Story and so many more that I can’t think of right now and wouldn’t have the time to list even if I could. Trek needs to go boldly where it’s not before–a cable/satellite channel. Or at very least a series of high quality miniseries on broadcast tv. I’m echoing the opinions of many here, I know.

1054. DaveK69 - August 14, 2013

I just wanna say first that I’ve only browsed through some of the 1,000+ comments on here, so if anyone has said anything like I’m about to say, sorry for the repeat….
That being said…Most people on here seem to want to go away from the action and get into more character base and exploring. The thing is that the “exploring” works better for episodic television. While it is possible, the story has to come with something that boosts intrigue for everyone. What’s lost on Trek fans is what we love about Star Trek is not what’s going to bring in new fans that will get movies over the $200-$300 million mark. 60′s television isn’t something younger people want to go back and explore themselves. I’m 43 years old and started watching Star Trek when I was about 6 or 7, staying up past midnight to watch after the Odd Couple and the Honeymooners was over on WPIX in New York.
Into Darkness was very much an action film, but the depth wasn’t there. I enjoyed it, don’t get me wrong. I’ve seen it 6 times and while my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th viewings had me liking it more…the 5th and 6th had me stagnating on what was missed. I still rate it very highly, but the film was rushed through a story that became jumbled. It could have been so much more if allowed the time to develop.
One of the worst lines…Khan-”I will target your life support systems located behind the aft nacelle”…seriously? Now Trek fans get that there are two nacelles and NOTHING behind them, but the other Millions that saw it have no idea. Stupid things that were missed.
Now, if @boborci reads this, trust me, I think you guys are brilliant. It’s hard as hell to make Trek appeal to as many as you guys have.
If I were making the next film here’s the direction I’m going…There is one movie that I would look at to literally rip off from (not a great movie, but IMO a good movie that almost embodies Trek)…Prometheus. If you’ve seen Prometheus and you can mix the elements of it around and find yourself putting the Star Trek crew into it you can understand my premise. It’s exploration, it had a good base to start from (why they were where they were), it had action, character interaction and development, it had intrigue. It was, in all senses, a Star Trek movie.
I think the next Trek does need a bit of a different directorial look. Someone who can pace a story a little more carefully, and not mind breaching the 2 hour mark if necessary. Yes JJ, you want to leave fans wanting more…but what you don’t want to do is leave fans feeling as though the story was compromised for the sake of brevity.

1055. Who cares - August 14, 2013

@1050. As I said I am not a fan of Potter, either the books or films, but I just watched the first film last night with my girlfriend (who is a fan) and I remember plenty of minority characters, despite the fact that I wasn’t really paying attention to it because I don’t like the frikin movie. Before I typed my post earlier I checked the imdb cast list for each film, which I trust more than fleeting impressions, and there are minority characters throughout the series. Wasn’t one of the girls Harry was involved with eastern Indian? Pretty sure she was, and that isn’t a bit part, nor was Alfie Enoch’s character, who was in all 8 films, and was part of Harry’s circle of friends, and again there is the fact that the makers of the Potter films actually hired Little People for their movies, which is more than Peter Jackson even attempted to do for that particular minority, and given that we are by definition talking about minorities here, the percentages look about right to reflect the real world’s population.

Now if you want to talk smack about the Potter films for any other reasons, like stupid story, confusing villain motivation, or what not I am right there with you, but please don’t try to make ethnicity an issue where it isn’t, it is unworthy of people who call themselves Trek fans.

1056. Red Dead Ryan - August 14, 2013

I have only seen the first four or five “Harry Potter” movies, and didn’t recall seeing any prominent non-white major characters, either. I think the visible minorities (hate having to say that) were mostly in the background, if they were ever there at all.

And we’re not suggesting that J.K Rowling is a racist. I just think people in general are subconciously wired to identify with others in their own gender and/or race pool. Not an excuse though. Simply a reason. Gene Roddenberry himself was a philanderer (and at times a sexist) but also fought hard to create an character of African descent played by an African-American actress.

The “Lord Of The Rings” movies don’t feature many non-white characters, either.

TV seems to be a bit better at diversity in casting. You see more Asians, South Asians, Arabs, Persians on the small screen than on film for whatever reason.

One of the shows I like, “Hell On Wheels” features a number of African American actors, as well as several First Nations/Native American actors in prominent roles.

1057. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

@1055

But in this parallel world of magic, the three power/leadership groups that are presented to us — the Hogwarts Faculty, the Council of Magic, and the group of bad guys — are uniformly manned exclusively by white people.

What’s up that that? How can you possibly defend that?

1058. MelyBelle44 - August 14, 2013

You guys are ridiculous, you know.

Dean Thomas was black. Lee Jordan was black. Angelina Johnson was black, and ended up marrying George Weasley, leading to little multi-racial Weasley babies.

Cho Chang, Harry’s first girlfriend, was of some sort of Asian descent. Parvati and Padma Patil, who are of Indian descent.

Kingsley Shacklebolt was highly respected and ultimately the Minister of Magic.

Not to mention, “minorities” go far beyond ethnicity in the Potterverse. You have muggles and mudbloods that are treated as inferior by some. You have squibs, centaurs, animagi, goblins, and house-elves- all treated as inferior creatures. Just like in Trek, a half-Vulcan is just as much a minority as a black woman on the bridge. They are both a minority and I think it is sad that people don’t see it as such.

Quite frankly, I was shocked to click on an article about the possible next director of Trek, scroll to the bottom, and find people talking about minorities in Harry Potter…huh?

1059. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

@1058 But, again, in this parallel world of magic, the three power/leadership groups that are presented to us — the Hogwarts Faculty, the Council of Magic, and the group of bad guys — are uniformly manned exclusively by white people.

What is your explanation for this?

1060. crazydaystrom - August 14, 2013

1054. DaveK69 -
” If you’ve seen Prometheus and you can mix the elements of it around and find yourself putting the Star Trek crew into it you can understand my premise. It’s exploration, it had a good base to start from (why they were where they were), it had action, character interaction and development, it had intrigue. It was, in all senses, a Star Trek movie.”
__________

Dave, my first reaction to that is YIKES!!! But after a little reflection I more or less agree with you. I just would not want Starfleet officers acting like or making some of the decisions some of Prometheus’ scientists did. Ha! They wouldn’t be worth the red shirts they’d be wearing! But yeah that movie’s premise is a truly great one and yes it would’ve made an interesting Trek film. But the third act and resolution would need to be a bit more satisfying.

1061. DiscoSpock - August 14, 2013

All,

Kingsley S. did get about 3 or 4 lines in the last Harry Potter movie. So, as far as the Harry Potter series go, they did finally give one single minority character a leadership position for one movie.

That’s pretty sad though.

1062. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

@1061,

OK, well having one single minority in a leadership role for just a minute or two of screen time is actually worse than just freezing minorities out of the leadership positions entirely. It’s like, OK, final movie, we better throw in a token minority in a leadership role for a few seconds.

My point stands — 99% percent of what you based on screen-time in the films in terms of the the three leadership groups (HW faculty, Magic Council, Bad Guy group) are white people. This is a fact.

@1056

“I have only seen the first four or five “Harry Potter” movies, and didn’t recall seeing any prominent non-white major characters, either. I think the visible minorities (hate having to say that) were mostly in the background”

Yep!

1063. Basement Blogger - August 14, 2013

Should we make anything of the Vegas convention poll results with Star Trek Into Darkness finishing last? Well first, let’s take a look at who participated in the poll. They were hard core Trekkers. The ones who spend a ton of money to go to conventions. It’s just my opinion but looking at the movies that came one, two and three. those films were more like the TV series. Ideas, philosophical or scientific were featured in those movies. Let’ s face it. They weren’t into Abrams Trek which moves at warp speed; placing action over ideas. My gut feeling is that they didn’t want to see Khan. Been there and done that..

The good for Bad Robot is that it’s not a scientific poll. The best poll Paramount and Bad Robot can look at is the box office. And according to Wikipedia, Star Trek Into Darkness is the highest grossing film of he franchise. LInk. I would say a lot of those filmgoers are Trekkers if not hard core.

I liked STID quite a bit. I wasn’t a fan of Khan being in the movie. Been there and done that. I thought it was better than the 2009 movie. And I rate it as number four. Here are my top three.

1. Star Trek: The Voyage Home
2. Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
3. Stat Trek: First Contact

Those films would finish ahead. on my list. One of the best compliments I can give any Star Trek show is this. Star Trek Into Darkness is Star Trek.

As Star Trek Into Darkness opens in Japan, we have yet to see the final numbers of its success. There will be the Blu-Ray coming out. And if those sales are good, Star Trek Into Darkness may hold and be the highest grossing movie ever. Pretty good for a movie that came last in a non-scientific poll. Star Trek Into Darkness moved in the right direction with ideas mixed in with the action. I’m looking forward to the next Star Trek. Maybe it will be Steven Spielberg’s turn to drive the Enterprise. (Guys, I say that last sentence with my tongue in my cheek. I know he’s probably not interested.)

Star Trek Into Darkness is the highest grossing Star Trek film.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Into_Darkness

1064. DiscoSpock - August 14, 2013

#1063 – Basement Blogger

The vast majority of this generation of fans that attends conventions today are TNG and Berman-era ST fans. They are still hoping for more TNG stuff, etc. etc., and really have not been able to move on from that.

That is one of the reasons I stopped going to Creation cons several years ago. The “Bermanite” fans are kind of taking over the conventions.

I’d love for them to do a major convention focused on JJ Trek. At that convention, I would attend, and I would expect many TOS series fans to attend — and there you would see Nemesis, Insurrection and Generations at the bottom of this poll.

1065. MelyBelle44 - August 14, 2013

@1059

You do realize that this world….and “minorities” are more than just white and black right?

As I stated, Kingsley Shacklebolt, a black man, became Minister of Magic. Filius Flitwick was a goblin. Remus Lupin was a werewolf. Hagrid is a half-giant. Filch is a squib.

Lord Voldemort himself is a half-blood.

My explanation for this is nothing. Listen, if you built Hogwarts in the middle of Southern Indiana, it would be 97% white people. To infuse 20% minority into a school for the sake of looking good or political correctness, would be stupid. The fact is that England is over 85-90% white. It’s less than 4% black.

Naturally, the setting of the school is going to reflect that ethnicity or else it would be disingenuous.

1066. DaveK69 - August 14, 2013

@1060. crazydaystrom

Exactly…It’s not to say they should do exactly what was done in Prometheus, it’s to follow the premise…Exploration, intrigue, wonder, and action. I wonder what Ridley Scott would have done with Star Trek. Look at what Prometheus was with a $130 million budget. The movie wasn’t compromised or shortchanged by budget. It was 2 hours long and didn’t feel rushed.

Another thing is that many Trek fans say they want a new opponent, something they haven’t seen…But we have to realize that although it’s a new timeline, they are going to follow their 5 year mission along the same lines. Running into something they have before in the original TOS series is inevitable. Finding the right story being molded into a less campy scenario could be very successful. Even combining old episodic TV with a new story. Opening the next one with a scene that starts with the conclusion of an old trek. Like taking out the Doomsday Machine or something to that effect.
The next movie can be a spin on an episode like “The Galileo Seven” or “The Immunity Syndrome”. Exploration episodes that can be spun interestingly with a challenge.

1067. DiscoSpock - August 14, 2013

#1065 “The fact is that England is over 85-90% white.”

The Magicians world in an alternate parallel universe which is supposed to represent all of the people on earth who have magical talents — not just Great Britain.

That is a ridiculous excuse to say that the demographics should be British-based. It should look like the UN, especially in the leadership roles.

1068. MelyBelle44 - August 14, 2013

@1062

It’s not about him being a token black person in the place of leadership for a few seconds.

It’s called how the books were written.

Many characters were left out of the movies entirely. Kingsley honestly probably could have been written out of the movies. I would have hated it, because I love his character and he is even more of a bada** in the books. But, they had to scale back characters. And I get that.

1069. Classy M - August 14, 2013

Bryan Burk today told the Japanese that he expects the next Trek movie to be released in “’15 or ’16″. He added they were still in the planning stage. The announcement came at an event at the National Museum of Emerging Science and Innovation in Tokyo.

The article appeared in a Japanese journal. I used Google to translate. Link: http://www.asahi.com/and_M/interest/entertainment/NIK201308140228.html

1070. K-7 - August 14, 2013

@1065 “Lord Voldemort himself is a half-blood.”

Ralph Fiennes is white guy, who played him. Christian Coulson, also a white guy, played his younger self.

You just helped to prove the opposite of what you are trying to argue???

1071. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

MelyBelle44,

All I’m trying to say is let’s not pretend that the Harry Potter series is multicultural. Because it isn’t.

I am not saying the series is racist. But what I am saying is that the series certainly isn’t legitimately inclusive of other cultures beyond white people. Look at the leadership roles and screen time — it’s predominately white-centric.

You can’t really argue with this. It is what it is. There is no need to pretend differently.

Let’s just agree on this and move on please.

1072. Phil - August 14, 2013

Funny to observe the evolution of though here on the subject of racial /sexual representation in media. Seems that most everyone agrees that Hollywood is still very male/Caucasian-centric. Yet mention Tyler Perry, and individual who makes the effort to break down these barriers, and the guy gets savaged as a talentless hack. Diversity seems okay, as long as it’s old white men making the decisions. Mayor Bob would be proud.

1073. crazydaystrom - August 14, 2013

1066. DaveK69
“Even combining old episodic TV with a new story. Opening the next one with a scene that starts with the conclusion of an old trek. Like taking out the Doomsday Machine or something to that effect.
The next movie can be a spin on an episode like “The Galileo Seven” or “The Immunity Syndrome”. Exploration episodes that can be spun interestingly with a challenge.”
__________

That was the sort of thing I thought they would do, touching on old Trek then being boldly original. In fact after ST09 I gave them credit for possibly being able to take some of the worst of old Trek and making something awesome of it. But instead they took some of the best of Trek and turned it into a hyper-kinetic blast-fest. A lot of tickets were sold so I guess it’s just selfish or short-sighted of me to wish that great cast and wonderful cgi had been used for a Star Trek that felt less ‘cartoony’ to me.

1074. Red Dead Ryan - August 14, 2013

#1065.

“The fact is that England is over 85-90% white.”

This statement is just pure asinine. I went to England sixteen years ago, and while most people where I went to were white, there was a sizeable amount of non-whites as well. I figure that back then, white folks made up about 70-75% of the total population.

These days, I wouldn’t be surprised if the white population is closer to 60% due to the influx of Arabs, Asians, Africans, and South Asians that has occurred during the past fifteen years or so.

1075. Red Dead Ryan - August 14, 2013

No one who considers Tyler Perry a talentless hack is being racist. Perry just does the same thing over and over. Dressing up and acting as an old sassy grandma doesn’t say a whole lot about his un-creativity as a writer and producer, or his lack of talents as an actor.

1076. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

I like Orci, and I like Kurtzman,

But I am wondering now if they are truly capably of truly original sf stories versus this sort of “cutting and pasting” from other sf movies over time to create a screenplay? I think it is an open question?

1077. crazydaystrom - August 14, 2013

1075. Red Dead Ryan

I’m no Perry fan RDR–never seen one of his movies but I do know he makes films other than his Madea (sp?) films and produces television as well. The guy is a true success story and most of Hollywood would be happy if they could have the success he’s had.

1078. Red Dead Ryan - August 14, 2013

Well, I stand corrected on the demographics. It seems England is still 85% white. It seems a bit high. I know that the populations of Canada and the U.S are becoming more and more multi-cultural and multi-racial, with white people making up less and less of the general population each year.

However, that is still no excuse for the lack of non-white characters and actors in the “Harry Potter” movies.

1079. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

Guys, Perry is both a trailblazer and a hack director. You are both right.

1080. Disinvited - August 14, 2013

#1071. MJ (The Original). – August 14, 2013

That writers find it hard to stray out of the comfort zone of what they know and are familiar is not too shocking. However, in J.K.’s case she purposely aimed herself and the Potter novels at a market which was outside her comfort zone. To the point that she tried to obfuscate her own identity as a woman behind the initials “J. K.” because she feared being perceived as a woman would be an impediment to its and her success. And the character, Harry, himself the focus of these works, is obviously not a female, either.

I suppose what I am saying is the fact that she isn’t very brave about representing minorities in these works isn’t very shocking given that she’s wasn’t very brave when it came to her own sex?

While I can applaud her acumen as a successful literary business woman, I’m a little appalled at the compromises she saw as acceptable in paving the route to it.

1081. Red Dead Ryan - August 14, 2013

#1076.

“I like Orci, and I like Kurtzman,

But I am wondering now if they are truly capably of truly original sf stories versus this sort of “cutting and pasting” from other sf movies over time to create a screenplay? I think it is an open question?”

Yeah, I agree. I think they run into problems when J.J Abrams isn’t around. If I’m not mistaken, most of the script was written when Abrams was busy and Damon Lindeloff was in charge.

Also, “Cowboys & Aliens” wasn’t very good. Should have been a lot better than it ended up being.

Orci and Kurtzman seem to go off the path when Abrams isn’t there to keep things focused.

#1077

“I’m no Perry fan RDR–never seen one of his movies but I do know he makes films other than his Madea (sp?) films and produces television as well. The guy is a true success story and most of Hollywood would be happy if they could have the success he’s had.”

I’m not trying to play down his success. He clearly knows his demographics, and knows about making money. It’s just that in my opinion, he isn’t a very good actor or writer.

1082. Red Dead Ryan - August 14, 2013

J.K Rowling also adoped a male pseudonym for her latest book, though I’m not sure why. The secret wasn’t kept for long. She used her own name for her previous book, “The Casual Vacancy”, which was successful, at least financially

Either she’s not secure with being a celebrity, or she’s just enjoying pulling everyone’s legs with publicity stunts.

1083. crazydaystrom - August 14, 2013

1081. Red Dead Ryan

Oh, okay. Your post saying “Perry just does the same thing over and over. Dressing up and acting as an old sassy grandma…” gave me the impression you though that was all he does. Hack or not the guy’s a true Hollywood success story—–without my ever contributing to his wealth. Well I DID see ST09 a whopping ten times. And own the DVD.

1084. Keachick - August 14, 2013

Or maybe some women prefer having their main protagonists as male. It could come down to combining of male/female energy – yin/yang. I often prefer main fictional characters to be male (good looking and intelligent) because they complement (if that’s the right word) my femininity and heterosexuality.

It appears to be harder for men to write about or show the female/the feminine. Many seem to operate in a yang/yang mode, which perhaps explains some major imbalances within cultures.

1085. Keachick - August 14, 2013

OT – To Bob Orci -

Darn it, man – People Like Us is a good movie. I have just managed to get my hands on a DVD copy and I like it. Good story and interesting characters.

What is it about Chris Pine that I am so drawn to him? It does seem that, no matter what character he plays, there is something that I found so lovable about him. I know he is good looking but other actors are good looking as well, but I just don’t get whatever “it” is, as when I watch Chris Pine play any character, irrespective of whether the character is basically a good person or not so much. He is lovely!

Oh well…I guess I have once again confirmed to Chris that I am a *crazy fangirl* who he would be very afraid of meeting…Too bad really…:(

This message thread is getting too long and the discussion material becoming repetitive and rather depressing.

1086. Disinvited - August 14, 2013

#1084. Keachick – August 14, 2013

I think you unintentionally created a ha-ha when you coined “yang/yang mode”. At least it sure made me laugh, but then, I may just be being irredeemably male.

Trying to be more serious: unfortunately, J.K. made Mr. Potter woefully underage in most of her wordage, such that I find any suggestion of her needing to meld her female energies with that of such a young male as suggestive of reflecting something far more deeply disturbing than something similar with her detective novel male lead.

However, I think that the nome de plumes chosen by her in both works clearly suggests that in her circle she was taught or learned that it is a “man’s” world and that to truly succeed in it, one therefore has to be male – and I find that very very sad in a world where both she herself and Oprah have proven that NOT to be the case.

1087. Basement Blogger - August 14, 2013

@ 1085

Keachick,

There’s nothing wrong with liking an actor. Just be aware you don’t know Chris Pine so you have no idea if he’s a good guy or not. Maybe someday he’ll go all ‘Christian Bale” on the set. Want to work with a guy like that? Regardless, from what I’ve seen of Pine he looks like a good guy. Don’t get obsessive with it. After all, they’re are plenty of real men in New Zealand. Some who are just as lovely as Pine.

As for “People Like Us” , I also liked the film. What gets me as how some critics didn’t get the conflict. They would write about Pine’s character, “Why doesn’t he just tell Frankie (Elizabeth Banks) that he’s his brother?” To those critics, it’s because Pine could keep the money if he doesn’t tell her.

My problems with “People Like Us’ was the Alex Kurtzman’s direction. The firs hour, Kurtzman is running the camera all over the place. I got motion sickness. Then there was the overuse of soft rock songs to telegraph the emotions. Trust the audience Alex. You got a great story, with sympathetic characters. Cutting the soft rock montages would greatly move the drama along.

Regardless, I urge Trekkers to give “People Like Us” a chance. It’s a story about how people seek each other out to become a family. And while Pine is good, Elizabeth Banks is great. I’ve met many a female bartender in my life. And she’s believable as one. Banks gives one hell of a performance.

1088. Disinvited - August 14, 2013

#1086. Basement Blogger – August 14, 2013

In a thread where I could be accused of exposing Freudian slips, don’t feed me quotes like that:

“Why doesn’t he just tell Frankie (Elizabeth Banks) that he’s his brother?”

;-)

But I love Elizabeth Banks, and so will increase my efforts to catch this film which was already on my radar because of positive Kurtzman reviews and Pine being a known quantity.

1089. crazydaystrom - August 14, 2013

1085. Keachick -

Pine is not only good looking but a very talented and apparently intelligent actor. And he exudes a certain but definite charm that’s extremely appealing. He’s my favorite actor of the new cast. And they’re all VERY good. I’m surprised he’s not an even bigger star than he already is. That’s coming, I have no doubt.

And I’m a straight male so he definitely has that ‘something special’ IMO.

1090. Tom - August 14, 2013

i would like to see the new movie open with Kirk giving Spock a birthday gift. Spock will also receive a gift from Spock Prime (the holographic pendant with Kirk Primes birthday greeting to him)I think the movie should end with with Spock giving Kirk the holgraphic pendant that Spock Prime had given him at the beginning. Work the dialogue to tie in to the story plus what was originally written. That captures the essence of Trek. It would be a nice bookend to the movie somehow getting Bill and Leonard a final scene together.. Wrap this around a great story and you have a wonderful Trek movie for the 50th anniversary

1091. crazydaystrom - August 14, 2013

Now that you got me thinking about Pine as an actor, I think he conveys emotion very sincerely, which of course is exactly what an actor is supposed to do. But even when an actor’s work is entertaining it’s not always nescassarily sincere to the point that his/her ‘process’ is undetectable. In fact for me the only other actor in the cast that comes close is Simon Pegg. And he doesn’t have Pines good looks.

Again ALL the actors in the new cast are very good, though.

1092. DaveK69 - August 14, 2013

Has anyone seen Walmart’s Star Trek Into Darkness blu ray exclusive with the USS Vengeance…Pretty cool.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Star-Trek-Into-Darkness-Blu-ray-DVD-Digital-Copy-Villain-Ship-Walmart-Exclusive-Widescreen/26780164

1093. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

@1092. Wow, I am cancelling my Amazon order and getting this instead.

Thanks!

1094. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

@1090,

Come on, still???

That ship has sailed, dude.

1095. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

@1087 “Maybe someday he’ll go all ‘Christian Bale” on the set. Want to work with a guy like that?”

Just because Bale has a temper, doesn’t mean that people don’t love to work with him. People like passion, and, if they go ballistic for the right reasons, a lot of people dig that.

1096. K-7 - August 14, 2013

I agree with MJ. Please, not Shatner or Nimoy in the next movie. The next movie needs to break from TOS once and for all.

1097. Basement Blogger - August 14, 2013

@ 1095, 1092, 1093

MJ, I was just using Bale as an example with the assumption he might have been a big jerk. The reality is always something different. And my apologies to Mr. Bale. Christian Bale was an angel after the Colorado shootings. He visited the injured in their hospitals. I don’t know the man but he definitely has a good side. And by the way, maybe director McG had it coming. I keeed director McG. (Terminator: Salvation) I keeeeeed him. Okay maybe not. Terminator: Salvation was a good idea but badly executed.

As for the Walmart copy of STID, I agree. That’s a cool give away. Even if it is coming from an evil company that exploits its workers. No wonder it’s a model of the Vengeance. I keeeed. Walmart. I keeeeed Walmart. I kid because I shop there.

1098. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

@1097. My thoughts exactly. You are use to working with Nolan, and then you do a movie with the “pretender” McG. I might freak out as well on that set.

1099. Basement Blogger - August 14, 2013

@ 1096

K-7, I’ve been coming here on this website for about three and a half years. And you seem to post at around the same time as MJ. Are you guys online at the same time, emailing each other? And you always support him. I have never seen you disagree with him. Have you ever disagreed with him?

Second, I agree to a certain degree with both of you about breaking away from the original TOS actors. Though remember that in 2016, it will be Star Trek’s fiftieth anniversary. I’m not going to get mad if Spock Prime has a role in the next movie. If it’s not gratuitous, then I’m good with it. And if the Doomsday Machine turns up for example, you don’t think Spock or Kirk won’t ask Spock Prime about it?

1100. K-7 - August 14, 2013

Yes, Basement Blogger,

MJ and I are friends in the “real world”. We met at a ST convention in the 80′s. MJ has mentioned this before here. Yes, we do email when a hot topic comes up.

1101. K-7 - August 14, 2013

I don’t dislike Shatner the way MJ does — that is one major difference.

1102. Basement Blogger - August 14, 2013

How about some more dancing from the King of the Khans? Here is Ricardo Montalban dancing with the legendary Cyd Charisse. I’m guessing it’s from Fiesta. (1947) Can Khan dance or can Khan dance?

After seeing Ricardo Montalban dance, I thought why did I root for Kirk? Then I forgot Khan had one minor problem. He had the “I want to take over the galaxy thing.” Hey nobody’s perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP6dLWEcRKw

1103. MelyBelle44 - August 14, 2013

@1067

Yes, but the Harry Potter series was based in Great Britain. Hogwarts was a British school, not an all-world school. The setting was Britain. I’m sure if Harry Jackson went to Hogwarts in Chicago, things would have been a lot different.

So no, the series was not supposed to represent the entire wizarding world. Heck, it didn’t even touch wizarding world in America. It barely dabbles with Bulgaria, France, Romania, where Charlie works, Grindelwald was from some faction in Eastern Europe…it was only supposed to represent this ONE school, this ONE small section of an entire world.

@1070

Yes, of course. Those actors are white. Does being white automatically make someone in the majority? Is being non-white the only way to be in the minority? Amanda Grayson was a minority on Vulcan, and she was white. Spock was a minority…everywhere…remember he is neither human nor Vulcan, so he is a minority wherever he goes. Technically, he is white.

@1071

No, I will not agree with that. No. The Potter books and movies were relatively in line with the demographics that one would find in Great Britain.

Now, would you rather have a relatively accurate portrayal of a private school in Britain? Or would you rather have an overflow of “minority” characters just to satisfy some sort of expectation? I prefer the former.

Were there minority characters with major roles in the series? No. But, you have to understand this. There were a LOT of roles that were scaled back, a LOT of roles that were eliminated in the creative process, that had NOTHING to do with race. There were a lot of relationships not fleshed out. Heck, if anything, Ron Weasley is the true minority. I guarantee you see people of color on the TV or movie screens way more often than you see a Ginger-haired person.

Sorry guys, I love my Trek, but when you mess with Mely’s Potter bull, you get the horns!

@1090

Just no. Seriously, if the next Trek started like that, I would probably walk out. I’m not joking.

The thing with Pine…I just cannot watch the Princess Diaries:Royal Engagement anymore (which is fine by me….that movie blew compared to the original) because it is just too weird. It is so weird but it is easier for me to see Quinto in other roles than it is Pine, which is odd, because I think Quinto is much more…in character as Spock than Pine is as Kirk.

1104. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

Marybelle,

The one black guy that you could come up among the wizards council, the Hogwarts faculty and the group of bad guys doesn’t even agree with the 15% of minority population in Great Britain.

Surely a couple more minorities in lead/major roles in the series would have been more representative of even Great Britain? I hope that you can at least agree with me on that?

1105. Disinvited - August 14, 2013

#1096. K-7 – August 14, 2013

I can understand your objections with regards to recreating their old roles, but people, this presumably will be part celebration of 50 years of Trek, I wouldn’t begrudge the production if they found away to get the many involved in Trek’s journey to still existing half a century later, to appear (not as their characters but as simple faces in the background and crowds.)

1106. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

Disinvited,

Many thought that after ST 2009 that the new series of movies would begin to do new stories, but that wasn’t the case — the Khan thing did not work out so well for many of us.

So the last think we need now is to repeat this mistake over again; especially consider Shatner is very overweight and will be in his mid-80′s when filming starts on the next movie. I mean, Christ, that was embarrassing for Star Trek to his fat old Kirk doing comedy stuff at the Academy Awards earlier this year.

Shat had his time — need to move on now to explore strange new worlds under JJ Trek and stop trying to look back, because that didn’t work so well in STID.

1107. Li'l Shat - August 14, 2013

The JJ timeline needs to detach from the original (and yes, that means no more Nimoy cameos). I really thought that was what they were doing with Trek ’09. Nimoy appeared to give the new crew a send off, and off they boldly went…

…to redo The Wrath of Khan. With another Nimoy cameo.

The third film needs to detach itself entirely from the original. No familiar villain/enemy and no Nimoy. There is absolutely no reason that this new Enterprise can’t go in a different direction than the one from the original timeline did. Space is vast. I’m sure there are plenty of strange new worlds the original Enterprise missed entirely which this new crew can discover and explore.

1108. Michael Ormes - August 14, 2013

Why cant they make a STAR TREK movie where they encounter aliens like the ones from the Alien or Predator movies?
I mean every alien species on Trek is basically dull in sense.
Give us some aliens that want to maim and kill to fight.
A STAR TREK movie where the ship and crew are stalked and hunted for sport and/or food.
That would be the ultimate enemy species for the federation.
Earth has never been invaded in STAR TREK by a race of aliens like that.

1109. Red Dead Ryan - August 14, 2013

Some people here can’t let go of the past. Why is it that Shatner has to be invited back? Sure, Kirk’s death in “Generations” sucked, but Shatner accepted the money and took part in it despite Leonard Nimoy’s better judgement. What’s done is done. Shatner’s acting style has changed. Plus he’s more of a documentarian these days anyway.

I wouldn’t mind a special commemorative documentary featuring the actors of all the past Treks for the anniversary, but the next movie should only feature the new cast.

Nimoy’s appearance in the first movie worked because his character was vital to the plot. It bridged generations. But his cameo in STID was not needed, and seemed to be more about fan appeasement. They went to the well too many times with that one. His role in 09 was perfect, and the writers should have left it at that.

“Skyfall” did it perfectly. They had eggs from past movies, but the producers wisely didn’t bring back Sean Connery (who was briefly considered, but not as Bond) or Roger Moore.

1110. Red Dead Ryan - August 14, 2013

#1108.

“A STAR TREK movie where the ship and crew are stalked and hunted for sport and/or food.”

They already did that…….on “Voyager”. The aliens were called the Hirogen. They hunted other humanoids, a Species 8472 creature, and even holograms. They hunted for food and sport, keeping the remains as trophies.

1111. DiscoSpock - August 14, 2013

Disinvited,

You really need to let go of TOS cast. We don’t need a third nuTrek movie paying tribute again. Enough is enough.

Read Dead Ryan,

You nailed it — they went to the well once too many times with STID. No more, please.

1112. Michael Ormes - August 14, 2013

@1110
Ok I will give you that but they weren’t anything like Predator or Alien but they were close,but ridiculous compared to them.
What I mean is where the old Enterprise made a right turn out of space dock, lol , the new crew should go left, or up or down or any direction other than TOS did.
Let another ship be on the original series 5 year mission route,and let TAS crew explore an unexplored quadrant that starfleet never explored,not even Voyager.

1113. MJ (the original) - August 14, 2013

@1112

Michael, wouldn’t it be cool if they were sent as the first Federation ship to the Galactic Center! That is the kind of awesome thing you are talking about, I believe, right?

1114. I am to Smurfy - August 14, 2013

Red Dead,
Sean Connery was never a serious possibilty.
He has been retired (even turning down spielberg to reprise his role for Indy4 )ever since LXG soured him on the movie industry.
furthermore there is a lot of bad blood between him and the Broccoli’s

But I agree with you about Nimoy’s into darkness cameo it was totally un needed. And I was disapointed that Nimoy agreed to do it considering he turned down Generations because he said there no reason for Spock to be there.

1115. I am to Smurfy - August 14, 2013

1106 MJ ” the Khan thing did not work out so well for many of us.”
Wait a minute so now you suddenly think Khan was the wrong direction to go?

1116. Disinvited - August 14, 2013

#1106. MJ (The Original). – August 14, 2013

I’m not sure what you are addressing here. You seem to be saying that if Trek actors aren’t up to recreating their original roles in a 50th year Trek film that there’s no point in having them appear in any other capacity either?

1117. I am to Smurfy - August 14, 2013

1093, wow so your going to pay 40 bucks plus tax for a single movie, but you whine and complain about 69 dollar for a complete series.
the WM exclusive doesnt even come with the 3D version of the film.
and its a gen 1 steelbook case.(for those not in the no Gen 2 is bluray size Gen 1 is DVD sized)

1118. I am to Smurfy - August 14, 2013

Its funny how Disco Spock, MJ and K-7 all sound the same in their responses, Right down to the Grammar and punctuation.

One might suspect they are one in the same.

1119. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

Sorry dude, but I just can’t take you seriously with a name like that. LOL

1120. MJ (The Original). - August 14, 2013

@1116

I am not saying that in general. I am speaking of the specific case of William Shatner – and yes, that is exactly what I think – he is no longer capable of presenting a credible Kirk in a scene in the next movie.

Ask yourself this, if Buzz Aldrin makes it to age 89 in 2019, and assuming he could pass the medical tests, do you think it would be wise for NASA to send him up to the International Space Station to commemorate the 50th Anniversary of the Moon Landing? Or would that be seen as an unnecessary stunt by a man who really should no longer be doing space missions?

It would certainly be cool though it Shatner participated in other events related to the 50th Anniversary. (and Aldring too, for his).

1121. Disinvited - August 15, 2013

#1109. Red Dead Ryan – August 14, 2013

Well, it is well documented in the case of TWOK that Shatner and others signed on to do one version of that movie only to have the studio pull the rug out from them at the behest of the fickle Nimoy and changed the emotional impact their portrayals were meant to convey within the confines of the script that was filmed.

To this day, I still don’t think the film suffers if I skip the “Remember” scene. It was a timid hedge by a studio that lost its nerve and commitment; fearing it had killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

For the life of me, I don’t know why that scene, once filmed, absolutely had to be wedged into Meyer’s masterpiece, and not merely held in reserve to be used as needed if a resurrection sequel was determined to be the best way to go?

Anyway, my point is given Shatner’s experience with both TMP and TWOK is it really fair to ding him for just resigning himself to accept the fact that, by Generations, for him, the Trek film he expects to make is going to turn out to be something completely different due to the lack of studio support?

1122. Vultan - August 15, 2013

#1120

Well, they did send John Glenn up a second time, but yeah, you’re right. Shatner would be better off doing other 50th anniversary stuff. Like that recent Gorn advert he did for the video game. Loved that!

1123. Michael Ormes - August 15, 2013

@1113
EXACTLY RYAN MY OUT OF THE BOX THINKING FRIEND!!!!
Our galaxy is a lifetimes worth of infinite,not to mention the universe.
What about a tv series where the federation builds a new class of starship called the Intergalactic Class made to travel outside our galaxy for the first time.
The starship would be around 2 times the size of the Galaxy Class and its design would be retro and based on the Constellation Class.
It would be heavily armed,armored and shielded with a dual warp core design so as to allow the ship to maintain maximum warp speed indefinitely without the core overheating.
Dual warp core design would also be needed for high yield energy weapons.
The ship would have cloaking capability.
The ship would also have extremely high matter/anti-matter storage capacity along with dilithium mining capability and matter/anti-matter production capability.
Or something along those lines anyway.
It is just an idea.

1124. Disinvited - August 15, 2013

#1120. MJ (The Original). – August 14, 2013

Well, I think you can take a legitimate stance that having Shatner as Kirk in the current incarnation would be too confusing and distracting, and not serve the current narrative well. However, it is quite another thing to say that Shatner, an award winning actor even in this millennium, is spent and would have absolutely nothing of value to contribute as an actor in some other non-Kirk capacity. On that, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.

1125. Michael Ormes - August 15, 2013

@1113 SORRY I MEANT MJ.
DONT HAVE A DAMN CLUE WHY I TYPED RYAN.

1126. I am to Smurfy - August 15, 2013

MJ just has a problem with people who are seniors it appears.
First Shatner, Then Hamill, Fisher, and Ford now Buzz.

If Buzz is still fit enough to do that then yeah there is no reason why he couldn’t go into space again.

1127. werner held - August 15, 2013

Please give ST13 a small budget – let’s say $30.000.000 (it’s fucking much money, but in comparison to the “standard-blockbuster” these times, it would be a very cheap movie).

Reasons:
* All the money-grubbers will be gone
* The story becomes most important thing, because there is not much cash for distracting fx
** This means Orci & Kurtzman are out because of absense of capability to write such a good story which would be needed
* The Passion for Star Trek will become the driving force again for the filmmakers, because there is no “big fish” for every dumbass in movie business anymore
* If the story rocks and many people gonna see the new movie, the margin would be much higher than with a $200.000.000+ “battleship”

Please Paramount… PLEASE!

Werner

1128. werner held - August 15, 2013

sorry for doublepost :/

1129. Basement Blogger - August 15, 2013

@ 1119

MJ, great there’s another Troll. Remember I told you there was more than one troll on this thread. And he’s trying to pick a fight with you. Oh for the record, Disco Spock is not you. Neither is K-7.

I’ve been reading I am to Smurfy or should we just call him Smurfy’s stuff, here and on the Convention thread. It’s all designed to sow discord. Case in point. I say Star Trek Into Darkness is the best science fiction released this year. He cites two indie science fiction movies from England. @ 764. That’s okay. But Last Days on Mars has not been released yet. It’s set for a UK opening on Sept. 19. Smurfy says he’s already seen it. The he cites 51 Degrees. I asked an English friend if she’s ever heard of it. She said no. I’m not sure it opened in England. And frankly, there’s no indication it will open here in the United States. I can’t even find the release date on the official website.

The problem with all this, is no one has seen these movies. Critics? No for 51 Degrees. But could only find one for Last Days. Link. And by the way, Last Days is about space zombies according to the critic. Better than Star Trek? Have real people seen these movies? A few. Since virtually no one has seen these movies, we can’t even debate them. And there might be a chance that they won’t be in any form of wide release. .

This is what I call a crazy troll. He comes in throws a crazy idea or one he knows will get people riled up. He’s also picking a fight with you. That was the Other Guy’s tactic. Well, he tried to pick a fight with everybody. The tactic on the other thread is to throw a bomb at fans of Star Trek Into Darkness.

Link. Review for Last Days on Mars. Critic says look for space zombies.
http://www.film.com/movies/the-last-days-on-mars-review

Clip from movie, Last Days on Mars. Okay, just read Last Days will likely be released through Ultra Video on Demand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYfeLYVZjHI

1130. MJ (The Original). - August 15, 2013

@1128

Basement Blogger,

Yea, I agree. Not only that, but if you are a troll, and you want to pretend you are new, then don’t sound like you have been familiar with me for years — it gives it away that you are someone who is not new, and has an axe to grind.

And not only that, his pre-school-like name is a typo.

LOL. I can’t even take this one seriously. He cracks me up.

1131. I am to Smurfy - August 15, 2013

MJ
Well i might not see eye to eye with you , and I might suspect that the 3 of you are the same poster,

And I will say this I never said I was new around here.

Not trying to poke or grind a axe or anything.
Just stating what I thought, last I checked as long as I am not abusive and spewing obscene language that is permitted.
If Matt thinks I crossed a line with my posts I will keep my thoughts to myself or tread more carefully again in the future.
I will say this who is the one breaking the cardnial rule of not making fun of another persons grammar on here? Not I said the cat.

And Basement Blogger re read my post I said TO ME those were the two best sci fi films this year. I also said in my post that I saw a advance screening of 51 degrees.

Here is a little fact for you BAFTA/LA does screenings of new and upcoming British film here in L.A. and I am sure the differnt BAFTA branches all around the world do as well. Especially films as good as last days on mars which recieved High praise at Cannes film festival back in May,
These were both screened recently here in LA at such screenings

But you claim no one has seen it, so what do i know.

24 May 2013
LA Times review of The Last Days on Mars

Following the successful Directors Fortnight screening of Ruairi Robinson’s The Last Days on Mars, see the LA Times review …

Friday, May 24,2013

Cannes 2013: ‘The Last Days on Mars’ leaves impression

Liev Schreiber in “The Last Days on Mars”
Liev Schreiber is one of the stars of “The Last Days on Mars,” which screened at the Cannes Film Festival on Monday. (Nick Wall / Focus Features International)

By Kenneth Turan, Los Angeles Times Film Critic
May 20, 2013, 2:44 p.m.

CANNES, France — “The Last Days on Mars,” one of the most commercial films up for grabs in Cannes’ official sections, made a strong impression when it screened as part of the Quinzaine des Realisateurs, or Directors Fortnight, on Monday afternoon.

One of the rare science-fiction films to have partial funding from the Irish Film Board, this is the debut feature for Los Angeles-based Irish filmmaker Ruairi Robinson.

Set during the last 19 hours of the first manned mission to Mars, “Last Days” stars Liev Schrieber, Elias Koteas, Romola Garai and Olivia Williams as crew members clearly getting on each others’ nerves as the clock winds down.

Well-written by Clive Dawson in a plot initially reminiscent of Ridley Scott’s “Prometheus,” a crew member discovers a form of bacterial life on the planet and makes the mistake of thinking of taking it back to Earth. The bacterium, however, turns out to have the nasty habit of turning crew members into grotesque and violent zombies (are there any other kind?).

The story may be familiar, but the way Robinson has directed it is undeniably gripping. “Mars” is a nifty genre exercise, a lean, muscular and fast-moving B picture that shows that science-fiction smartly done on a budget can hold its own with anything.

1132. I am to Smurfy - August 15, 2013

ANd basesment re read that last line from the L.A. Times review
“Mars” is a nifty genre exercise, a lean, muscular and fast-moving B picture that shows that science-fiction SMARTLY DONE ON A BUDGET CAN HOLD ITS OWN WITH ANYTHING”

Oh and MJ i gave my reasoning for using to instead of too
in my screen name the other day.

1133. I am to Smurfy - August 15, 2013

Here here is my problem with posters like you two, you can not accept that people have different likes and dislikes.

You think that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
And you say as much, And you jump all over posters who say something contrary to what YOU think.

All I will say is this Into Darkness had the shortest engagement in First Run Theatres of ANY of the Star Trek movies released so far, and thats a FACT.
If it was soo good it would still be in atleast some of the bigger FIRST RUN movie theatres. the only screens it is still playing on are on the 2nd and 3rd run discount houses.

1134. I am to Smurfy - August 15, 2013

Oh and the theatre that BAFTA/LA held the screenings were
Last Days on Mars at the Harmony Gold theatre on sunset blvd
and 51 degrees at the DGA theatre on Sunset blvd

Don’t believe they screened there call them up
Harmony gold 323-436-7204
DGA Sunset 310–289-2021

1135. Basement Blogger - August 15, 2013

@ 1132

Smurfy,

I’m not going to say Last Days on Mars, is a bad movie. I have not seen it. . But space zombies??? You either want to pick a fight with STID fans or you really hate it. And it’s fine if you hate it. There. I defended your right to disagree with me. But you’re not very constructive.

But it’s the height of hypocrisy for you to slam STID first run theater length while failing to note the status of your beloved Last Days on Mars. Oh, and by the way, where are your statistics that say STID had the shortest first run in theaters? Regardless if that is a fact, here’s another couple of facts.

1. Star Trek Into Darkness is the highest grossing movie of the Star Trek franchise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Into_Darkness#Box_office

So you are intellectually dishonest by shoving a fact that I have not heard about by saying STID had the shortest run in theaters and saying it was not successful. STID is a great success and the Blu-Rays haven’t even been sold yet. . Oh, there’s still the Japanese run going on this month.

Meanwhile, here’s the hypocrisy. Last Days on Mars is going to video on demand. At least with a small indie science fiction movie like Moon, there was a theatrical run.

2. Last Days on Mars to be shown in the states as Ultra VIDEO ON DEMAND.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/liev-schreiber-sci-fi-tale-582379

And by the way, you could do a better job of making your point if you would cite your sources. I’ve read the L.A. Times review so that is correct but the other stuff is your burden to show.

1136. werner held - August 15, 2013

Somehow my postings disappear … (1127 relates to this posting, but it’s gone)…

Please give ST13 a small budget – let’s say $30.000.000 (it’s fucking much money, but in comparison to the “standard-blockbuster” these times, it would be a very cheap movie).

Reasons:
* All the money-grubbers will be gone
* The story becomes most important thing, because there is not much cash for distracting fx
** This means Orci & Kurtzman are out because of absense of capability to write such a good story which would be needed
* The Passion for Star Trek will become the driving force again for the filmmakers, because there is no “big fish” for every dumbass in movie business anymore
* If the story rocks and many people gonna see the new movie, the margin would be much higher than with a $200.000.000+ “battleship”

Please Paramount… PLEASE!

Werner

1137. werner held - August 15, 2013

Anthony: Can you please tell me, why you or somebody are deleting my postings?

Werner

1138. Barney Fife - August 15, 2013

1135: werner held
Anthony had been MIA from Trekmovie for about 3 months so I wouldn’t hold your breath on getting a response from him.

1139. werner held - August 15, 2013

1136:
Hi Barney,
well, it’s shows how often I look around here ;)
The more it is uncool when the one post I do, is deleted right after posting :/

So somebody else is working and censoring… :/

werner

1140. werner held - August 15, 2013

Well…
cool system…

now all my attempts for my post are online :-S

Werner

1141. MelyBelle44 - August 15, 2013

Okay…I’m just going to throw this out there.

I would be worried that Shatner would be a complete joke in a Trek movie. Nimoy was brilliant.

Now, TOS Kirk was not as bad as he has been made out to be. He started out okay, but the hamminess factor went up as things progressed. But, Shatner has been out of Kirk commission for so long. He has been on the Priceline commercials where he plays a certain kind of guy, his very nature seems to be a certain kind of guy (just hammy is all I can say)

Would he be able to rein it in and present a normal, TOS era style Jim Kirk? Honestly, I just don’t know, and I don’t think it’s worth the risk.

1142. werner held - August 15, 2013

and gone again…

wtf?!

1143. Yanks - August 15, 2013

@ 1142…

I’ve had the same problem in the past. don’t kow why, but sometimes posts “go away” or are not visible for a time, but they always get homesick and come back :-)

1144. Tom - August 15, 2013

I understand the feelings of some that do not want having Original Series actors in the next movie. I disagree but if that is how the writers feel so be it. I think in abscence of being in the main story that an end credits scene would not harm the movie in any way and would be a nice nod to the 50th anniversary.

Also for those insisting they should break away from TOS etc. Remember which characters were used to revive the franchise. So even if the stories go in a different direction (and there has been some great dialogue on the subject) it still is the original characters and Enterprise alternate universe or not.

1145. P Technobabble - August 15, 2013

I don’t have a list but I’ve been told certain words have been ‘programmed in’ to delete messages automatically.

1146. Phil - August 15, 2013

The site has filtration software that will quarantine posts if certain content is detected – if the post re-appears shortly after that means a moderator has reviewed and approved the content. Contrary to popular belief, the site isn’t completely on auto-pilot.

1147. Dave H. - August 15, 2013

#1133

Your information is correct. Nemesis had the shortest first run of a Star Trek movie — 5 weeks.

BTW, the correct version of your handle should be: “I’m too Smurphy”

1148. Dave H. - August 15, 2013

Excuse me, I meant to say: “Your information is incorrect.”

1149. Basement Blogger - August 15, 2013

@ 1147

Dave H.

Thank you for the correct information. There’s a reason why he threw out a ” fact ” without proof. Smurfy is a troll. It’s what I call being a crazy troll. Throw out something crazy and get the posters all riled up. It’s like going to a Chicago Bulls forum and saying “Michael Jordan was a terrible basketball player.”

1150. DiscoSpock - August 15, 2013

I am to Smurphy said: “And I will say this I never said I was new around here.”

All, correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t this pretty much a defacto admission that this person is a sock-puppet — someone who has been on this site for a long time, but changes their identify to make it easy for them to start trolling around.

Busted !!!!!

I have been posting here for over this years, and this jerk-off, an admitted sock-puppet, questions MY identify?

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Hey Smurfhead, get back to me when you have improved your Romper-Room-level smack-tack. Why you got right now just isn’t prime time.

Basement Blogger is correct — this is the laziest troll I have ever run across. I mean, at least think a bit before you try to fool us. LOL

1151. Keachick - August 15, 2013

#1087 – Yes, I cannot believe how critics and others could not understand why Sam Harper (Chris Pine) would not tell Frankie (Elizabeth Banks) that he was her half-brother. In fact, Sam actually explained his reasons in the film! Sam probably could have kept the money but his conscience kept getting in the way – fortunately – for everyone.

Funny that you should comment on the music because I really liked it. The music was also relevant because Sam and Frankie’s father was in the music making business. I liked all of the characters. They had their faults and they were struggling with fear, jealousy, anger, grief (Sam’s mother) as was Frankie, however Frankie had genuine abandonment issues as well. Sam was confused (basically because he had no idea that he actually had a sister), afraid, and full of grief and anger.

It was actually the 11 year old son, Josh, who brought the two partial families together because he was a kid who had had enough of all this *adult* bs and wanted to be with as much of what family he had as he could. It was Josh’s need and right!

1152. Undiscovered - August 15, 2013

Ever so charming.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/15/orson-scott-card-racist-obama_n_3762891.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

1153. Keachick - August 15, 2013

Frankly if the studio want to leave Shatner out of any future alternate universe Star Trek movie, then they should tell Leonard Nimoy to take a hike as well. If Shatner is deemed too old (and fat), then so should Leonard Nimoy be deemed as such – because Leonard does not come across as any younger than Shatner. Despite Nimoy’s slimness, he comes across as being just as old as Shatner, if not older.

I actually believe that if either actor or both actors were given a scene that had genuine meaning for their prime Kirk/Spock characters respectively, they could quite possibly make good of it. The question is – what scene though and would many fans like it or find yet more ways to piss on stuff? Pissing seems to be many people’s favourite pastime.

1154. Keachick - August 15, 2013

In terms of bringing William Shatner back as an older prime Kirk, I had written a scene which had this happen. It actually could have been shoehorned into STID, except that it may have looked out of place within the context of the STID story.

It could have taken place just after Pine/Kirk dies and before he regains full consciousness two weeks later…

Prime Kirk experienced a strange meeting with the younger version of himself but wonders if he might have been hallucinating, even though he’s never been given to having hallucinations. He quietly mentions the weird experience to his friend, Spock, just before he goes on the Enterprise which encounters the Nexus. Prime Spock keeps what Kirk told him to himself…

However, I suspect many people would deride it as being superstitious pseudo-science…oh well

1155. P Technobabble - August 15, 2013

I’ve been doing some reading about Internet trolling on several websites. I won’t go into any details but one site caught my eye with some bits of conversation between one poster and a troll: their ‘debate’ was about Star Trek. I guess Trek has a huge troll base in addition to a huge fan base.

1156. Red Dead Ryan - August 15, 2013

You didn’t hear “Batman” fans clamoring for cameos by either Michael Keaton or Adam West while the “Dark Knight” movies were being made. You didn’t hear “Superman” fans demanding that Margot Kidder appear in “The Man Of Steel”. “James Bond” fans didn’t ask that Sean Connery appear either.

“Star Trek” seems to be different. Unlike fans of the noted franchises above, Trek fans just can’t stop living in the past. I’m seeing a desire for a Klingon-Federation war in the next movie, by fans, and by Damon Lindelof. Others want Nick Meyer to direct the next one, and another poster even suggested that the budget for the next movie be only $30 million based on his logic that a tiny budget would force the writers to be creative. Yeah, that really worked out well for “The Final Frontier”, LOL!

1157. Red Dead Ryan - August 15, 2013

#1153.

“Frankly if the studio want to leave Shatner out of any future alternate universe Star Trek movie, then they should tell Leonard Nimoy to take a hike as well. If Shatner is deemed too old (and fat), then so should Leonard Nimoy be deemed as such – because Leonard does not come across as any younger than Shatner. Despite Nimoy’s slimness, he comes across as being just as old as Shatner, if not older.”

I’m in favor of not having any previous Trek actors in the next movie, with a possible exception of Nichelle Nichols as the computer voice. But that’s about it.

1158. Keachick - August 15, 2013

Mostly I agree with you, MJ and Red Dead Ryan, about not having any TOS cast members appear in the new films. However, I am trying to suggest a means by which a compromise can be reached between those who have no real desire to see any of the older cast and those who do want to see Shatner and Nimoy back, if no others.

I am seeking a win/win scenario. Whether that can happen, I don’t know. Ultimately, it is up to the studio, producers, writers and actors Shatner and Nimoy.

1159. dmduncan - August 15, 2013

1152. Undiscovered – August 15, 2013

Card is actually fairly accurate there. Obama not only spoke of the need for such a police force, but he actually has one. The TSA. It’s not just for airports anymore, but 9 out of 10 of you probably don’t know that, or what a VIPR (Viper) Team is (gotta love the acronym; the Nazis would be envious), OR that the Department of Education, and even NASA, has a SWAT team.

The question is not whether we have a police state, but where on the continuum of possibilities from mild to severe ours is.

1160. Red Dead Ryan - August 15, 2013

#1158.

You shouldn’t expect fans to compromise with each other. We Trekkies are probably about as stubborn, myopic and dogmatic as fans of any sci-fi property can get.

It’s why its never a good idea for writers to listen to the fans. Never.

1161. Phil - August 15, 2013

@1160. Very, very true. Fan fiction exists for a reason…

1162. Red Dead Ryan - August 15, 2013

And what I mean by “listen”, is really more along the lines of “appeasement”.

I think it’s good for writers to accept opinions and constructive criticisms from fans, but not so good when they start soliciting story ideas and plots from people who don’t know the first thing about scriptwriting and who don’t have the objectivity that would be needed. Fans hardly ever agree on anything.

1163. Curious Cadet - August 15, 2013

@1161. Phil,
“Fan fiction exists for a reason…”

Begs the question whether the professional writers should also be fans …

1164. Basement Blogger - August 15, 2013

@ 1151, 1158

Keachick,

Yes we can disagree about the use of soft rock songs in “People Like Us.” But what we do agree on is that it was a good movie. I’ve met a few women bartenders who are single moms. And Elizabeth Banks as the single mom bartender reminded me of every one. The part was well written and Banks nails it.

It’s not a good idea of bringing Shatner back into the next movie. It makes no sense. However, as I have said, if the powers want to honor the fiftieth anniversary by bringing back Spock Prime, I don’t have a problem with it. The question will be does the part make sense. And like I said before, it makes sense if they face say The Doomsday Machine, they talk to Spock Prime. “Hey Spock Prime, got any ideas on how to destroy this big ice cream cone that’s eating planets?” I kid the Doomsday Machine. Spock is the logical choice of a character from the past to make an appearance. As long as the part has some substance, I’m okay with it.

1165. Ahmed - August 15, 2013

For Benedict Cumberbatch fans :)

“Benedict Cumberbatch narrates our exclusive trailer premiere of ‘Jerusalem,’ an in-depth IMAX look at the Old City from the folks at National Geographic Entertainment”

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/jerusalem-2013/trailers/jerusalem-3d-trailer-222012573.html

1166. MelyBelle44 - August 15, 2013

Do you know how much of a bitter Betty you sound like? “Well, if Shatner isn’t in the movie, Nimoy shouldn’t be either!” Seriously, it’s an argument a 5 year old would make.

If they decide that in this alternate reality, Spock will be the only one with a Prime counterpart, that’s perfectly fine by me.

If they shoehorn a Nimoy/Shatner scene into Star Trek 3 just for the sake of having it, just for the sake of the 50th anniversary…I think it would be a huge disservice to these new movies, the new cast.

1167. MJ (The Original). - August 15, 2013

@1154 “…except that it may have looked out of place within the context of the STID story.”

Yea, just that minor pesky detail THAT IT WOULDN’T”T HAVE FIT WELL in STID.

But why worry about that — just throw in the scene anyway and hope for the best, right?

;-)

PS: Nimoy still looks like Spock. Shatner no long likes like Captain Kirk – reference the fat buffoon attempt at Kirk at the Academy Awards that was so painful to watch.

1168. Star Trek Family - August 15, 2013

MJ (The Original

Someday you will be an old fat buffoon also.
Believe me when I say, it will happen faster than you think!

1169. Curious Cadet - August 15, 2013

@1065. MelyBelle44,
“The fact is that England is over 85-90% white. It’s less than 4% black.”

So what’s your explanation for STID? Only 2 of the 11 principal actors were non-white. That seems like an odd proportion for a film set within an intergalactic federation, especially one based on Earth where white people are currently in the minority. Yes there were some non-white background actors, and some non-white supporting actors, but the vast majority of featured faces depicted in the film seemed to be white, and human, at least as far as the Federation was concerned (in which the majority of the film took place).

1170. Disinvited - August 15, 2013

#1156. Red Dead Ryan – August 15, 2013

That Trek fans are significantly different is probably better indicated by the fact that neither Batman nor Superman’s fans organized and successfully got a network to reverse cancellation of TV shows featuring their beloved characters.

And I dare to declare, as well, that if the majority of those self-same fans hadn’t organized and heavily supported the first films in the franchise, I doubt we’d be typing about a 50th anniversary nodding movie now.

The many many many debates about canon also arose because they had a strong sense of what came before, i.e. a history of START TREK within the fiction as well as in the outside reality.

Another difference, is Batman and Supes had their origins on the printed page where as STAR TREK did not. Comics fans confined their passionate arguments to the printed editorial pages and focused their passions on the artists, writers, and their stories there. Fans of Trek’s flickering images had to create lines of communication on their own out of nothing with no Publisher to focus or filter their efforts.

First Fans lived in times rich in what is now regarded as history and STAR TREK was a part of it. Surely, you could forgive us if we have a desire to have something a little more than short shrift given in acknowledgement of it?

Also, I note in your comic book movie analogy that you somehow managed to forget the many many appearances of Stan Lee in Marvel flicks, and he wasn’t even an actor when they started that – although by now he’s done it enough times that I dare say he’s become one.

1171. Disinvited - August 15, 2013

#1156. Red Dead Ryan – August 15, 2013

That Trek fans are significantly different is probably better indicated by the fact that neither Batman nor Superman’s fans organized and successfully got a network to reverse cancellation of TV shows featuring their beloved characters.

And I dare to declare, as well, that if the majority of those self-same fans hadn’t organized and heavily supported the first films in the franchise, I doubt we’d be typing about a 50th anniversary nodding movie now.

The many many many debates about canon also arose because they had a strong sense of what came before, i.e. a history of START TREK within the fiction as well as in the outside reality.

Another difference, is Batman and Supes had their origins on the printed page where as STAR TREK did not. Comics fans confined their passionate arguments to the printed editorial pages and focused their passions on the artists, writers, and their stories there. Fans of Trek’s flickering images had to create lines of communication on their own out of nothing with no publisher to focus or filter their efforts.

First Fans lived in times rich in what is now regarded as history and STAR TREK was a part of it. Surely, you could forgive us if we have a desire to have something a little more than short shrift given in acknowledgement of it?

Also, I note in your comic book movie examples that you somehow managed to forget the many many appearances of Stan Lee in Marvel flicks, and he wasn’t even an actor when they started that – although by now he’s done it enough times that I dare say he’s qualifies one, now.

1172. MJ (The Original). - August 15, 2013

@1186.

I hear you! I am already nearing old, and making good progress towards fat. Buffoon — well, perhaps. :-)

“A man’s got to know his limitations.”
- Dirty Harry (Magnum Force, 1973)

1173. Captain Slow - August 16, 2013

boborci boborci boborci

If you needed inspiration to continue trying to get a Star Trek animated series off the ground:

http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?80393-Imaginary-Trek-Cartoon

1174. Tom - August 16, 2013

1158 Keachick

Definitely down for a compromise. Like the idea! I still think an end credits scene would work so that MJ can thumb his nose at it as he walks out of the theater before it goes on

1175. Disinvited - August 16, 2013

Here’s something to chew on:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/mean_girls/news/1736815/2/an_oral_history_of_rt_part_three_ripe_tomatoes/

“There’s the mistaken impression that the Tomatometer is a quality rating telling you how good a movie is. Actually, I like to think of it as a confidence meter — the percentage likelihood that you’ll enjoy a movie. For instance 100 percent Fresh for Toy Story 2 doesn’t make it the best movie of all-time, rather that you’re almost guaranteed to enjoy the movie (and I think everyone can agree to that!). In fact, the Tomatometer is just a very useful GIMMICK that hopefully draws people into the site where so much more about movies can be discovered and dissected.” – Steven Wang, a creator/founder of the commercial website known as ROTTEN TOMATOES

1176. werner held - August 16, 2013

@1156: Red Dead Ryan

You are right. Sure there is no guarantee that if the reduce the budget of the next movie, the story would be better… There is indeed the need for some smart writers who can create a believable and enthralling plot.
“The Final Frontier” wasn’t my favorite, too, it was just a bad movie…
But: the approach for a movie with lower budget is different in my eyes… Because you can’t waste your resources you first of all have to think of what to show and what to leave out. Nowadays it seems to me that most of the filmmakers just want to insert bigger Special-FX, more Action … the compete in making films, which are louder, faster and … more empty.

A smaler budget would may be cross this trend, because there is not much space for creating shiny-bright and IN-YOUR-FACE CGI. My hope is, that if there would be such an vacuum, they would fill up the emptiness with a catching, consistent and interesting storyline.

About living in the past:
I’m open for new impressions and “new worlds and new civilisations”… but of course I compare the Star Trek which I know and which I love with the new incarnations… Otherwise I wouldn’t be a fan. So why should I through all the good-past over board, only for having new movies where somebody put “Star Trek” on? Why shall I lose my wish for ambitious content?

As I mentioned – there is no guarantee that lesser budget would cause better movies … but at least it might improve the odds.

Werner

1177. crazydaystrom - August 16, 2013

Off topic but of at least vague interest-

It’s being widely reported that the CIA has acknowledged the existence of Area 51 in newly declassified documents detailing the previously unacknowledged area in the Nevada desert.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/16/cia-acknowledges-area-51-in-declassified-documents/#ixzz2c8DKdHWZ

The location is exactly the location that would be indicated on Google Maps if you googled Google maps. Ha! Ya gotta laugh.
No reports of alien spacecraft or Ferengi though.

1178. crazydaystrom - August 16, 2013

That’s ‘if you googled Area 51 on Google Maps’.

1179. Aurore - August 16, 2013

@ 883

“The Trekkies, in the Star Trek convention in Las Vegas, have spoken, STID is the worst Trek movie ever made with its incoherent story & dumb use of Khan.”
________

I have my opinion on the choice that was made castingwise.Besides, I never was a huge fan of the Khan character.

…But, since I haven’t watched the sequel yet, I can’t say which Star Trek movie is the best…
:)
Joking aside, I can tell you this ; I thought Star Trek (2009) was…perfect.

I know ; “every movie has its flaws”. But, I did not see any of them…until they were pointed out to me…online. And even then, I still very much liked the movie! LIKED it, I tell you !!!

Obviously, some people were having fun with some of the debates taking place, at the time :

(Link if authorized, here):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02LgdXVkXgM

1180. MelyBelle44 - August 16, 2013

@1169

I guess you and I just see diversity in different ways. You see it as a racial thing. I don’t.

The Enterprise had, amongst a number of different alien races…a black woman, an Asian man, a half-Vulcan, a Russian, a Scot, a female first officer (Number One)

To me, that IS diversity….bringing people together from different lands, different galaxies to work together. For me, the diversity scale isn’t measured by how white a character is or isn’t.

1181. I'm Captain Kirk... I'M CAPTAIN KIRK!!! - August 16, 2013

I saw that boborci has been checking in on this thread so I just thought I’d throw in my .02, and my apologies if any of this has been said already. I’m sure it has, by many of you but I can’t stay silent anymore. I love Star Trek too much than to just be resigned to mediocrity.

As much as time and time travel has been used a device throughout Star Trek in all of its incarnations, time and time again, I would like to see the prime timeline repaired. This could come out of the Vulcan’s desire to see their homeworld “restored”. Say the Vulcans, now that technology in the new timeline is all outta whack with the future influences, found a way to do this somehow? I’ll leave it to the writing team to exercise their talents here… That’s why you do what you. Just don’t introduce any green or blue matter or I WILL spill my popcorn all over the guy in front of me in the theater.

Half joking aside…

I really hope what you do with the third movie is great, I really really do. STID really left me wanting a lot more out of the experience – it was all flash and no soul. And bringing back Khan? A mistake, at least for me. You have a whole universe to play in, and to create something new with, not to make a half-baked remake of Wrath of Khan. No more revenge flicks, please. Pretty please.

Look. I’m sure you’re sick of everyone being a critic, no doubt there were alot of movie-goers who loved it. But as someone who has grown up on ST since I was a kid, I missed the thought-provoking story. I pretty much will echo Karl Urban’s recent comments to IGN about what should come of the third movie.

“Let’s see what’s out there.”

Enough said.

1182. Aurore - August 16, 2013

“Joking aside, I can tell you this ; I thought Star Trek (2009) was…perfect.”
_________

O.K….Maybe not perfect. Almost “perfect “.

After a rather promising start, Nero failed to “scare” me.

But, I believe(d) the character served his purpose well within the context of the reboot.

1183. MJ (The Original). - August 16, 2013

@1180

It’s a cop-out to me though if you have all of these “alien diversites” if you can them all with “white people”.

That’s like trying claim that many older Westens that used white people to play Indians as forward thinking movies, since they presented another race. That doesn’t cut it.

If you are going to have all these aliens, then surely there is an opportunity to diversify your casting away from the white person status quo, right?

1184. Ahmed - August 16, 2013

An article about that STID poll

—————————————————–
Star Trek Into Darkness: Is It Really The Worst Star Trek Movie Ever? (MovieMantz)

“Star Trek Into Darkness” was recently voted the worst “Star Trek” film by fans at a recent “Trek” convention.

While the movie was a phenomenal success at the box office, hauling in more than $452 million worldwide, it apparently failed to endear itself to a global legion of fans.

Now, Access Hollywood’s resident “Trekker” – Scott “Movie” Mantz –weighs in on the assertion it’s the worst “Star Trek” movie of all-time…

“Wow!!! It’s definitely NOT the worst (not even CLOSE) – that honor falls to 1989’s “Star Trek V: The Final Frontier,” followed by 2002’s “Star Trek: Nemesis” (the lowest-grossing “Trek” of them all.)

Here’s the thing: as a movie critic, I think “Star Trek Into Darkness” works. It’s not as good as the 2009 reboot (which was an almost-perfect movie), but it was definitely the most action-packed big screen “Trek” ever made. The problem is that there was SO much action that it lost the charm, the magic, the playfulness and the confident swagger that made the 2009 movie so great.

But as a Trekker, I have bigger issues with “Into Darkness” – the BIGGEST issue being that they simply did NOT need to tell the Khan story again, no matter how much they put a different spin on it.

Read the rest of the article here:

http://www.accesshollywood.com/star-trek-into-darkness-is-it-really-the-worst-star-trek-movie-ever-moviemantz_article_83129

—————————————————–

1185. Keachick - August 16, 2013

#1167 – “PS: Nimoy still looks like Spock. Shatner no longer looks like Captain Kirk”

Oh MJ dear…I am only able to start typing anything because I have been so busy laughing. First – wow – lucky Nimoy…LOL

“Shatner no longer looks like Captain Kirk” would have to be one of the daftest statements ever made…LOL Think about it…

1186. Keachick - August 16, 2013

#1184 – “…The problem is that there was SO much action that it lost the charm, the magic, the playfulness and the confident swagger that made the 2009 movie so great.”

Isn’t this just what so many said about the 2009 Star Trek movie which did NOT make that movie so great? I think so.

How perceptions and memories alter – UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Frankly, it is fair to say that both of these new Star Trek movies contained more violent action sequences than I would have liked, but then again, this is how most big movies are being made at this time. At least these Trek producers manage to keep such scenes JUST, but only just, within “reasonable parameters” which means that the movies did not become, for me, snooze fodder.
My other problem was that STID was not “sexed up” enough – hell, we never even got to know Kirk’s cat-lady friends’ names. At least, we knew her name was Gaila, just like we knew that Bo’s late night sex hook up’s name was Shelley (ref. Bottle Shock).

Really – Bob Orci and co – not good enough, however, I am hopeful that you will do better next time…

1187. MJ (The Original). - August 16, 2013

@1184

Should I have heard of thie “MovieMantz” ???

I’ve never heard or seen this site. Might as well just be a poster here saying that, given how obscure that site is.

1188. Basement Blogger - August 16, 2013

It’s time to debunk the Las Vegas Star Trek Movie Poll and the result that Star Trek Into Darkness (STID) is the worst movie of the franchise. First, it was an unscientific poll.. Nope ti was not done by Public Policy Polling or any polling organization. Second, only one Trek site reported the poll. That was TrekWeb. I like TrekWeb but the story is flawed in that it reports it as sort of an accurate picture of Trek fandom on STID.

But TrekWeb does cite its source. It comes from blogger David Faraci of Bad Ass Digest. Link. Now read the article my fellow Trekkers, Faraci clearly hates STID. Second he tells a little how the poll came about. It was done at a forum called One Trek Mind. Third, Faraci says about one hundred people attended. Now remember he hates STID. This is what I call consider the source.

So there you have it. A majority of one hundred Trekkers in a convention forum that had more than a thousand attending (see costume competition for a minimum number) the general convention, hated STID. Another thing about the ” poll,, there were no numbers. . Yep. We don’t know the head count. Heck, we don’t even know how the poll was conducted.

Media must be more accurate. Deal with the facts. And here they are. Star Trek Into Darkness is highest grossing movie of the franchise. (Wikipedia) It can clearly be considered a critical success. This from movie critic survey sites. Rotten Tomatoes gives it a 87 per cent on the Fresh scale. Compare that with Elysium’s 68 per cent. Metacritic rates it at 72 percent.

Link. A majority of one hundred Vegas convention Trekkers in a convention forum hated STID.
http://badassdigest.com/2013/08/11/the-star-trek-movies-as-ranked-by-star-trek-con-goers/

1189. Basement Blogger - August 16, 2013

It’s time to debunk the Las Vegas Star Trek Movie Poll and the result that Star Trek Into Darkness (STID) is the worst movie of the franchise. First, it was an unscientific poll.. Nope ti was not done by Public Policy Polling or any polling organization. Second, only one Trek site reported the poll. That was TrekWeb. I like TrekWeb but the story is flawed in that it reports it as sort of an accurate picture of Trek fandom on STID.

But TrekWeb does cite its source. It comes from blogger David Faraci of Bad Ass Digest. Link. Now read the article my fellow Trekkers, Faraci clearly hates STID. Second he tells a little how the poll came about. It was done at a forum called One Trek Mind. Third, Faraci says about one hundred people attended. Now remember he hates STID. This is what I call consider the source.

So there you have it. A majority of one hundred Trekkers in a convention forum that had more than a thousand attending (see costume competition for a minimum number) the general convention, hated STID. Another thing about the ” poll,, there were no numbers. . Yep. We don’t know the head count. Heck, we don’t even know how the poll was conducted.

Media must be more accurate. Deal with the facts. And here they are. Star Trek Into Darkness is highest grossing movie of the franchise. (Wikipedia) It can clearly be considered a critical success. This from movie critic survey sites. Rotten Tomatoes gives it a 87 per cent on the Fresh scale. Compare that with Elysium’s 68 per cent. Metacritic rates it at 72 percent.

Link. A majority of one hundred Vegas convention Trekkers in a convention forum hated STID.
http://badassdigest.com/2013/08/11/the-star-trek-movies-as-ranked-by-star-trek-con-goers/

1190. Dave H. - August 16, 2013

Keachick,

I agree with MJ (The Original). Wiliam Shatner does not look like Captain Kirk to me anymore. The Captain Kirk I love and respect from TOS would never let himself go like that. Captain Kirk of TOS series was a disciplined man.

Captain Kirk in his 80′s would be a healthy man, and would look like it.

I too, cringed at the Academy Awards last year when we got a taste of what Shatner’s portrayal of a an older Kirk would look like. Sorry, but that was not Captain Kirk — no way!

Remember, Captain Kirk is a fictional character played by actors. When those actors can no longer successfully play the part of Kirk, they need to move on.

1191. Marja - August 16, 2013

1186 Keachick,

After the initial glow of ST2009 wore off [because I was so incredibly thrilled that Kirk, Spock and the gang were back in action and so well acted], and I started looking at plot holes and the somewhat one-dimensional character of Nero, I think I’m in the same place with both movies.

The dramatic/character moments are very well acted. The bits of story that related to character development were passionate and lovely.

This was true in ST1 and STiD.

What I liked in STiD: Scotty as a fleshed-out, still funny, but super-accomplished character. Well done, Simon Pegg, and Orci/Kurtzmann. Spock’s and Kirk’s character arcs that started on opposite sides and met in the middle. Spock in “action,” albeit excessively violent action. The fight choreography, ditto. Beautiful but excessive. The Nibiru opening, Kirk’s big screwup made out of his compassion, Spock’s commitment to the Prime Directive, and Pike reading them out in his office, probably my favorite scene in the movie. The beautifully acted death of Pike by Greenwood, Quinto and Pine [bravo all].

What I disliked in STiD:
The killing off of Pike. The lack of McCoy’s presence and the lack of discussion among the Bridge officers [only one brief scene between Kirk, McCoy and Spock on the Bridge, ending with that fantastic "when it became relevant" from Spock].

The extreme violence, yecch [and prohibitive of bringing younger kids into the fandom]. The huge black ship [which begs the questions, how did Marcus get the funding, time and material to build that thing? Is there a grand machination going on in the Federation, which presumably funds Starfleet?].

The relentless action in STiD: whew, my adrenaline was through the roof for over an hour, not a sensation I enjoy, and took away time from my favorite things, which could have been expanded by mere minutes to add more “weight.” The near-death of one of the main characters in Star Trek, our dear Enterprise!

Kirk hanging off something to kick the persaminator back into place to restore the energy flow – wouldn’t it have been smarter to position himself so he could exert more force using his legs and bodily musculature, lying on his back for example, in perhaps a metaphorical “giving life” position?

I was fine with Kirk’s death scene and the flipped echoes of ST:WOK, except that McCoy should have arrived there too – a quick “I was in surgery, what’s going on? Oh my God, Jim …” followed by Spock’s yell, which should not have been “Khannn!”

How I would have loved to see a longer discussion between Pike and Kirk in which Pike expresses his doubts about the new direction of Starfleet, that he has faith in Kirk to uphold the ideals which got both of them to join the service in the first place. [I have a feeling, based on photos released before the movie, that such a scene was left on the cutting room floor, dammit.]

The discussion between Spock and Uhura moved into a private scene, even one equally as short, or slightly longer, ending with a mind-meld between them. More exploration of the significant theme of well-meaning men doing evil things in support of their “preventative” agendas and living out the “power corrupts” idea [Marcus].

Extensions of the character moments, and McCoy’s passionate input into the decision processes.

And for God’s sake, the exclusion of “Khan” – again I say, having left him an augment named “John Harrison” would have been fine.

1192. Garak's Pride - August 16, 2013

I agree with those who say that William Shatner no longer looks like Captain Kirk.

It saddens me to say that he’s just no longer credible in that role.

1193. Undiscovered - August 16, 2013

@1159. dmduncan – August 15, 2013

I disagree, and the point of the post was to demonstrate that besides being a homophobic bigot, Card’s a racist and politically wacko.

Obama never called for a “national police force.” In a July 2008 speech he used the words “civilian national security force” to describe how he’d “expand AmeriCorps to 250,000 slots,” “double the size of the Peace Corps,” and “grow our foreign service.” That was five years ago, and he actually failed to do it.

TSA and VIPR? That’s a whole other mess. They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t. I live in NYC so I don’t really mind that expansion. Something better needs to be done. What it’s not though, is a civilian strike force for POTUS. (How would its budget exist outside of congressional appropriations?). So, that won’t happen but Card thinks it will.

Card says, “(They) will be recruited from “young out-of-work urban men” and it will be hailed as a cure for the economic malaise of the inner cities. . . . Obama will put a thin veneer of training and military structure on urban gangs, and send them out to channel their violence against Obama’s enemies.”

Card’s putting the final nail in the coffin of his career and bringing more bad publicity to the Ender’s Game movie.

1194. Phil - August 16, 2013

@1192. Well, nothing against the man, but Nimoy needs to stay retired, too. Wheezing through a few lines because him and JJ are buddies was completely unnecessary in STID, and just added to the mash up vibe of the movie.

1195. DiscoSpock - August 16, 2013

Phil and Dave,

I agree. Both Shatner and Nimoy need to stay retired from playing the roles of Kirk and Spock in future movies.

The level of sentimentality by some here is just not in the best interests of the franchise, moving forward.

These geezers (and I say they fondly, like I tease my grandpa) just can’t play those roles anymore, especially when considering that in the 23rd century, they would have extended lifespans, and would only appear to be maybe in their 50′s when they were actually in their 80′s.

1196. Phil - August 16, 2013

@1189. As I suspected, a disgruntled fan at a booth at a convention, an unscientific poll (for all we know, the guy could have been giving away a beer for every ‘no’ vote), and quite possibly stuffing the ballot box.

This is no way to run a franchise…..time to ignore this poll….or run one of our own.

Is STID the worst Trek movie ever?
Yes.
No.

1197. Phil - August 16, 2013

No

1198. Ahmed - August 16, 2013

@ 1196. Phil – August 16, 2013

Is STID the worst Trek movie ever?

No

It is not the worst Trek movie but it is not the best either.

” As I suspected, a disgruntled fan at a booth at a convention, an unscientific poll (for all we know, the guy could have been giving away a beer for every ‘no’ vote), and quite possibly stuffing the ballot box.”

Guess you like conspiracy theories :)

Seriously, why people always try to undermine any opinion that does not fit wit their own view. People are not alike, we all have our own different view about everything in life.

Or as they put it elegantly on Star Trek, IDIC ( Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations).

1199. Barney Fife - August 16, 2013

NO!

1200. Aurore - August 16, 2013

Regarding the validity of the Las Vegas Star Trek Movie Poll .

(Some) fellow fans probably participated in more than one unscientific poll on this very site and others, so, I’m sure they take this last poll for what it is ; an opinion given by fans at a convention. Nothing more, nothing less.

Those fans spoke for themselves, which was their right. That’s it.

In any case, that’ s the way I saw it, they certainly weren’t speaking for me ; Star Trek II : The Wrath of Khan would not have come out on top, otherwise…

:)

1201. MJ (The Original). - August 16, 2013

@1198. That is because that opinion is obviously full of shit. You kinda believe it only because you share that opinion. But just look at User Reviews on RT, Yahoo, IMDB and the poll taken here — those all correlate into STID being a well-received ST movie.

The Creation convention poll is an outlier. No other measure supports that assessment.

1202. Phil - August 16, 2013

@1200. Yep, we all have. And commented on the range of choices. Every poll here has been reported as unscientific, and I think we all pretty much understand that, being a fan site the results are good for arguing some point of Trek over a beer, and nothing else.

The problem with the Vegas poll is that it doesn’t even meet the loose standard here. This guy could have stuffed the ballot box, or just made up the results to suit his opinion. No one would really care except it’s created a bit of negative blowback on the movie that it doesn’t deserve.

No, this poll does not reflect my opinion that Generations is still the worst Trek movie ever.

1203. Red Shirt Diaries - August 16, 2013

All,

William Shatner looks more like Jabba the Hut these days versus the true look of what I would expect an elder Captain Kirk to look like if Star Trek were real.

Shatner should not play Captain Kirk again. I would much rather they “age-up” Pine to play an elder Kirk if such a role is ever needed in any future ST movies.

Shatner no longer looks like Captain Kirk — that is a fact.

1204. Red Shirt Diaries - August 16, 2013

And I can prove it. We already know what an aged Captain Kirk should like like from TOS episode, The Deadly Years — here are the photos:

http://shatnerstoupee.blogspot.com/2011/03/deadly-years-hd-study.html

Now, compare this to the look of aged actor, William Shatner today:
William Shatner today:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1237637/Boldly-growing-William-Shatner-reveals-expanding-waistline-beach.html

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2010/08/09/william-shatner-kidney-stone-auction_tjo4J_22975.jpg

This proves, once and for all, that William Shatner does not look like what we should expect and aged Captain Kirk to look like — in fact, he looks like a completely different person as compared to the aged Captain Kirk that we all saw in The Deadly Years.

1205. Red Shirt Diaries - August 16, 2013

And, taking this one step further, look at how much closer to the aged Spock from the Deadly years that actor Leonard Nimoy looks like from Trek 2009:

http://www.movieactors.com/freezes1/Trek-DeadlyYears27.jpeg

http://www.treknews.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/leonard-nimoy-spock-star-trek-2.jpg

So, unlike Shatner, Nimoy still retains the ability to credibly play an elder Spock in Star Trek.

1206. Ahmed - August 16, 2013

@1204. Red Shirt Diaries

“This proves, once and for all, that William Shatner does not look like what we should expect and aged Captain Kirk to look like — in fact, he looks like a completely different person as compared to the aged Captain Kirk that we all saw in The Deadly Years.”

This for sure take the top prize for the most ridiculous comment on this forum.

If CBS followed this dumb reasoning, they wouldn’t have to cast Leonard McCoy as an old Bones in the TNG pilot

Because this is how he looked in “The Deadly Years”

http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200303/tos-040-mccoy-is-striken-by-th/320×240.jpg

And this is how he appeared in TNG pilot

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120205062713/memoryalpha/en/images/d/da/Leonard_McCoy,_2364.jpg

OMG, he looks different, how did they allowed him on the set !!!!!

Shatner will not need to run around the ship, all he will need to do is do the scene as required. In STID, Nimoy was sitting the whole scene & in ST2009, he didn’t run or jump or whatever crap you think that Shatner need to do.

You guys really hate Shatner so much that you can’t come up with a logical reason for him not to be in the next Star Trek movie !!

1207. Ahmed - August 16, 2013

oh & have you ever heard of something called make-up effects ? You know, the thing that the filmmakers use to change their actor appearances.

1208. Red Shirt Diaries - August 16, 2013

#1207

You mean like this, where he was made up to look like Kirk for the Academy Awards last year:

http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/oscars-william-shatner.jpg

He looks NOTHING LIKE Captain Kirk from The Deadly Years in this photo.

So that argument doesn’t pass the bullshit filter, my friend.

1209. dmduncan - August 16, 2013

1193. Undiscovered – August 16, 2013

Obama never called for a “national police force.” In a July 2008 speech he used the words “civilian national security force” to describe how he’d “expand AmeriCorps to 250,000 slots,” “double the size of the Peace Corps,” and “grow our foreign service.” That was five years ago, and he actually failed to do it.

***

Oh please. Do yourself a favor and don’t sucker yourself by parsing words. A “civilian national security force” is what the TSA is turning ever more into. I don’t care what terms you want to use, the intent is still visible through the whole creepy way they are slowly enlarging their AOR.

1210. Red Shirt Diaries - August 16, 2013

And those McCoy shots, while not being a great match, at least look like it is the same person. You can’t say that about comparing Kirk from The Deadly Years to Shatner today — those guys look like a completely different person.

And McCoy’s body did not pork out either — the body types from McCoy in The Deadly Years and The Next Generation look like the same person.

1211. Ahmed - August 16, 2013

@1209. dmduncan

You guys may wanna look at this article & video about a new book:

“Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces” by Radley Balko.

SWAT-Team Nation

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/08/swat-team-nation.html

Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26bH7ZL2W8E

1212. K-7 - August 16, 2013

Ahmed, you ever been to Detroit?

If there ever was a place in the U.S. that need cops to go military, its’s that place.

It’s easy I’m sure for the ultra-liberals at The New Yorker to take potshots at an incident like that where the police over-reached in Detroit, when they can go out in Manhattan and have drinks after work, and then go back to their comfortable penthouse apartments.

God help anyone who has a job trying to police Detroit. I certainly cut those brave guys some slack.

1213. Tom - August 16, 2013

If having Shatner and Nimoy in the movie in a small scene hurts the future of the franchise, then folks we are in real trouble

1214. K-7 - August 16, 2013

Red Shirt,

After all the years of “Shat Wars” here between posters on Trekmovie.com, I am surprised that no one else until now has come up with this very simple test on whether a aged TOS actor can still play the role — using The Deadly Years as the vision comparison test for this is positively brillaint.

And yes, it proves, without a doubt, that the Shat can’t credibly play James T Kirk anymore.

Thanks for this simple and elegant solution to this ongoing issue of bringing Shat back — problem solved, your method proves that he no longer fits the role of Captain Kirk.

1215. Garak's Pride - August 16, 2013

Re: Tom.

You are being overly-dramatic. I would say this — it certainly does nothing to help the future of the franchise, and indeed is distracting to many of us.

Time to move on. Including them in another movie is neither warranted nor welcome at this point in ST history.

1216. Garak's Pride - August 16, 2013

Re: Red Shirt Diaries

Thanks for bringing this Shatner thing to a close. Your photo comparison has put this issue to bed here once and for all.

1217. dmduncan - August 16, 2013

1211. Ahmed – August 16, 2013

Oh I haven’t read that book but I’ve been playing close attention to police militarization for years. It’s all part of the trend.

1218. Marja - August 16, 2013

I think one of the big problems (and sorry to chime in late) is that Mr Shatner has become so great at parodying himself it is hard to take him seriously at all. When he parodied Kirk at the Oscars, I think he himself was putting the nail in the ol’ coffin.

It was not until I saw him interview “The Captains” and he was speaking with Sir Patrick Stewart that he seemed to register an ounce of respect [since the first two years of actually portraying Kirk] for his character, Kirk and his role in fandom. At that moment I saw the scales of self-satire fall from his eyes. He realized the respect his character drew from fans, that it was sincere respect and not worthy of the low regard in which he had held it for all those years.

I am not sure about Shatner’s weight gain; it does seem odd for such an active man. I think I read somewhere years ago that he was on some kind of medication for some physical condition, and it was a medication that contributes not only weight gain but some bloating. Could be wrong, but it explains a lot to me, even at his age, Shatner still rides horses and is a peripatetic actor.

I don’t think a new inclusion of PrimeKirk would work exactly in nuTrek unless, somehow, it was seamlessly integrated into the plot, as a very short minute or two scene with PrimeSpock, and how could that even happen with the actors at their present ages, since “Generations” they have each aged significantly, and many more fruitful and happy years to both of them.

The suggestion on this thread that someone made for showing the original cast in background characters seems a good one, and rather fun. For, say, nuKirk and nuScotty to see all of them noisily gathered at a table or booth in a bar, drinking, raising a glass to their dear departed, “Dee” and “Majel” and “Jimmy” and have a muttered explanation that they’re a group of officers celebrating their 50th reunion would be great. Or show them as admirals, senior and junior, emeritus and active, at some conference. The first would be easier and fun, the second would necessitate much explanation and hokey plot arrangement.

1219. MJ (The Original). - August 16, 2013

@1218

Marja,

Great post!

1220. Disinvited - August 16, 2013

#1218. Marja – August 16, 2013

First, parodying Kirk is not the same as parodying, William Shatner, Second, William Shatner did not win an Emmy for his portrayal of Denny Crain because Denny in any way, shape, or form was a “perfect” parody of William Shatner. Third, the Kirk look thing is moot, as back in 2009 Shatner said he’d willingly used deaging tech if that’s what it took to get him the gig in the new Trek. Fourth, thanks for acknowledging my suggestion but I wasn’t just limiting it to TOS actors – however I did acknowledge it might necessitate a light fun plot as many might be too busy playing “Where’s Waldo” to follow anything deep, but as these movies aren’t particularly aimed at the fans, as is often stated, that might not particularly be an issue for the moviemakers.

To those others who keep trying to hang some kind of scientific legitimacy on RT’s method of polling: I point again out that through out it’s history the founders/creators have said that what they do is neither subject to the scientific method nor possessed of any mathematical rigor. I refer you to my message 1175 where Stephen Wang points out that what RT does is a GIMMICK and it’s a “…mistaken impression that the Tomatometer is a quality rating telling you how good a movie is.”

1221. Disinvited - August 16, 2013

#1220. Disinvited – August 16, 2013

Make that “Steven”

1222. MJ (The Original). - August 16, 2013

Disinvited,

You are missing the point. You have multiple, independent — and yes unscientific, but nevertheless with 10′s of thousands of people — polls out there that all show a general trend that STID was an acceptable movie.

Then, you have this supposed single poll, with no background on how it was taken, on a convention floor, which says it was the worst Star Trek movie.

Apply Ocaam’s Razor here please.

I’ve been to many conventions — I know a fan-sham kind of deal when I see it.

And on your Shatner point, if Shatner is willing to go CGI and be de-aged, then why not just use Pine, who is already in the movie, and age-up Pine. What is the point of having Shat in the film is you have to do Gollum-like WETA special effects to make him into a believable Kirk. I would think he would have more pride than that?

He doesn’t look remotely like Captain Kirk anymore; we’ve already given Nimoy two films…ENOUGH…let’s move on, people! Let’s grow up here — the 1960′s through 1980′s aren’t coming back.

1223. Disinvited - August 16, 2013

#1222. MJ (The Original). – August 16, 2013

No, you as a science-fiction fan are missing the point. As such a fan, it behooves you to understand the scientific method which includes that those sites’ methods of gathering and calculating data be openly published and subject to peer review. RT set the mold for NOT following the scientific method and every aggregator that I am aware put out disclaimers in lieu of opening their methods.

Garbage in equals garbage out. It doesn’t change because hundreds or even thousands do it. It’s still garbage with regards to signifying anything meaningful.

Until you find someone following the scientific method in their aggregations you are only left with “faith” that they aren’t doing something nonsensical. And that you have more faith because you can find more people doing an unscientific thing just about gets you as far away from science that a fan of science as implied in “science-fiction fan” can manage.

1224. MJ - August 16, 2013

Nope,

Because the ratings on those boards, made up from 10′s of thousands of users, generally concur with the average of the opinions of people in my family, friends, acquaintances, people at work, etc. 9 times out of time, I find the ratings very reliable.

And I am talking about the “User Rating”, not the supposed expert critics. Those ratings are more subject to group think and elitist tendencies.

Again, I find these ratings very reliable, and pretty accurate, and this is validated by the opinions of many others. So when I hear about some completely undefined “single point” fan poll on a convention floor, that disagrees completely with the tracking of User Reviews on multiple user rating sites RT, IMDB, Yahoo and others, I dismiss it as and outlier.

It is similar to ratings on Amazon and Yelp — sure, people can point out discrepancies and cases where the ratings aren’t honest, but my experience over the last 10 years of using these rating systems and reading the reviews is that they almost always are spot-on. I trust them, because they are backed up from my own experience and with the experience of many others I associate with — just like with the User Ratings with the movie review.

The User Ratings work, and they are generally accurate.

1225. Disinvited - August 16, 2013

#1222. MJ (The Original). – August 16, 2013

“And on your Shatner point, if Shatner is willing to go CGI and be de-aged, then why not just use Pine…” – MJ (The Original). – August 16, 2013

First, I’m pretty much sure from our previous legal discussions especially regarding Ellison and Nimoy that you are fully aware that Shatner owns all the rights to images of his younger self, so I’m not going to bother to rehash that.

However, to introduce something new, I’ll remind you of the legal precedent set in Crispin Glover versus BACK TO THE FUTURE II where, as you suggested, it was done in that Crispin’s character appeared as imaged by him earlier without him participating.

Second, your point was Shatner couldn’t participate because he could not look like the image of Kirk he created. You now admit that he can through Golem tech, so that part of your no Shatner argument is refuted as in (How do you phrase it?) CASE CLOSED.

1226. Disinvited - August 16, 2013

#1224. MJ – August 16, 2013

I assume you are aware that anecdotal evidence isn’t worth much with regards to constructing conclusions based in science?

I get it that your faith in those systems have value for you. Just don’t try to sell the notion that it is any more scientific than the faith some posting here have in the Vegas Con poll.

1227. MJ (The Original). - August 16, 2013

As an example, here are the Top 20 Movies, based on User Ratings, on IMDB:

Rank Rating Title Votes
1. 9.2 The Shawshank Redemption (1994) 1,020,910
2. 9.2 The Godfather (1972) 719,553
3. 9.0 The Godfather: Part II (1974) 465,913
4. 8.9 Pulp Fiction (1994) 791,383
5. 8.9 The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966) 307,386
6. 8.9 The Dark Knight (2008) 995,799
7. 8.9 12 Angry Men (1957) 250,578
8. 8.9 Schindler’s List (1993) 519,592
9. 8.8 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) 725,276
10. 8.8 Fight Club (1999) 775,634
11. 8.8 Star Wars: Episode V – The Empire Strikes Back (1980) 495,425
12. 8.8 The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (2001) 749,460
13. 8.7 One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest (1975) 424,873
14. 8.7 Inception (2010) 805,293
15. 8.7 Goodfellas (1990) 442,754
16. 8.7 Star Wars (1977) 557,406
17. 8.7 Seven Samurai (1954) 154,850
18. 8.7 Forrest Gump (1994) 675,163
19. 8.7 The Matrix (1999) 732,726
20. 8.7 The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002) 650,825

Now, while we all might argue with a few of these subjectively based on our personal favorites or disfavorites, it is hard to not see that this Top 20 movies of all time looks close to what many people would consider to be the Top 20 movies of all time.

This is thus a form of self-validation of IMDB User Reviews — that the generally accepted best movies of all time rise to the top of the ratings validates the User Review information they are getting. And the fat that there are not any “what the F” movies in the Top 20 further validates the User Inputs.

1228. Jonboc - August 16, 2013

The thought or notion that Shatner can’t play an elderly Kirk in a Star Trek movie is patently absurd, worthy of all the merit Im going to give it.

1229. MJ (The Original). - August 16, 2013

@1226. Knock off your misleading “faith” comments. You are not reading a word I said, and I have spent considerable time trying to explain this to you.

1230. MJ (The Original). - August 16, 2013

@1228 Did you see the Academy Awards?

Come on! That was one of the most embarrassing moments in the history of Star Trek.

1231. Barney - August 16, 2013

@1227. MJ (The Original). – August 16, 2013

IMDB is ruled by fan boys.I would not dwell on IMDB much, IMDB is not as credible as RT or Metacritic

The same IMDB gave the Justin Bieber movie Never say Never 1/10 when it has a higher rating than Man of Steel. IMDB ratings are very biased , seriously how does TDKR get a score of 8.6 and Return of the Jedi is gets an 8.3. how is that possible?

fan boys are shameless.

1232. Garak's Pride - August 17, 2013

Movie site User reviews essentially validate themselves through the sheer number of people participating, combined with the fact that the ratings typically fall in line with generally accepted views of most movies.

When the numbers of random participants in a poll get into the 100,000+ territory, statistical variation show us that the difference on that huge sample size will be negligible from an independent random scientific poll.

Basically, size matters! To explain this more simply, the “brute force” of so many people participating will eventually lead you to the same results as if you did a random scientific poll with less participants.

PS to Barney: TDKR was better than ROTJ — so of course its rated higher. Remember the silly EWOKS. And Man of Steel is rated much higher than Justin Beiber — again, yes, of course it is, as it should be; not sure what you point is? I think you just have alternative views guy on these movies that are not shared with the majority who votes on these sites. Not a lot of people like Justin Beiber movies, and most people rate ROTJ as by far the weakest of the original SW trilogy.

1233. Tom - August 17, 2013

As far as the Acacdemy Awards Shatner skit it is interesting. Many people loved it, many hated it. The importance is that on one of the most watched ceremonies in the country they chose to use Shatner as Kirk. Obviously Mcafarlane was a part of that. However the producers still felt it would appeal to millions of viewers. So whether it worked or not, i was just happy to see Star Trek to be seen as relevant again.

As for The Deadly Years debate they could always CGI Shatner to resemble The Deadly Years if that is the issue.

I do like MJ’s idea of using Pine. At least then you could see Kirk Prime again
Of course if you are in the Shatner only camp then that wouldn’t work.

How about just putting Bob’s Shatner scene on film and including it as an extra for a DVD/Blu Ray.That wouldnt be a distraction or hurt the franchise in any way.

I’m sure if Bill is ready willing and able he will be involved in the 50th anniversary in some way. Please though NO MORE DOCUMENTARIES

1234. Barney - August 17, 2013

@1232. Garak’s Pride

You missed my point.

TDKR and ROTJ are average films. they should be getting a score of 7/10 like most average good films.

Xmen 2 and Jurassic Park are better than TDK and TDKR but the crazy Nolan fans ranked TDK and TDKR higher on IMDB because they worship Nolan.

Harry Potter 3, 4, and 8 are all better than TDKR and ROTJ but those films gets a score of 7/10 on IMDB because the author of the film is a woman. Harry Potter 3 and 8 are better than TDK.

How the heck is TDK a 9/10 film?

I brought up Justin Beiber’s film because it has a higher score on RT and perhaps Metacritic when you rate it against man of steel.

My point is that how can a film like never say never which has a high rating on RT when you compare it to Man of Steel gets rated a score of 1/10 why MOS gets a score of 7/10 in IMDB?

You should question the legality of IMDB.

1235. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

#1229. MJ (The Original). – August 16, 2013

Then please stop implying that what you are doing is following the scientific method in which you are providing a testable mechanism which can prove your hypothesis wrong.

What you are doing is no different than the Pope and the Cardinals saying we know the Sun orbiting the Earth is the right explanation because it agrees with what we all know to be true.

Also, because those sites methods are arcane and secret, you have absolutely no data to provide as to how they address errors, nor how valid their methods are to cancel out gaming.

And I remind you that in our previous discussions about RT and aggregators I provided proof that the corporations are indeed investing substantial funds in influencing those results. Until, these sites open up about what they are doing, we have absolutely no idea how well they are addressing that, if at all. Because, as Wang said, their primary goal is provide a gimmick which attracts people to their site putting money in their pockets and NOT publish scientific results in peer-reviewed journals.

Finally, if you truly believe that all that you tallied in message 1227 is full of mathematical scientific vigor capable of taking on all and any challenges then I encourage you to actively pursue getting it accepted for publication in credible peer-reviewed science journals, and prove me wrong.

1236. PaulB - August 17, 2013

#1234 Barney — You should stop acting as if your personal tastes guide everything. You proclaim XMen2 and JPark to be better than TDK/TDKR, but that’s NOTHING but your opinion. Same for the rest of your post: opinion, opinion, opinion…

Just because YOU don’t think TDK deserves 9/10 doesn’t matter. The world freaked out over that movie, it received a lot of rave reviews from critics and the audience, and it’s the “best” Batman film according to a lot of people. So the 9/10 fits the VAST MAJORITY of responses to that film.

You (and MJ, and others) need to learn that your personal tastes do NOT dictate the truth about these films. For example, I loathe Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country–it’s a piece of crap parody of Trek, IMHO. But the vast majority of fans love that movie, so my opinion is NOT the majority opinion. Same with you and TDK: you might sneer at it, but most people thought it was a 9/10.

Also, I don’t think there’s a problem with the legality of IMDB. Maybe you mean a different word instead of “legality.”

1237. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

#1233. Tom – August 17, 2013

“I do like MJ’s idea of using Pine. At least then you could see Kirk Prime again
Of course if you are in the Shatner only camp then that wouldn’t work.” – Tom – August 17, 2013

As I pointed out, Crispin Glover winning his lawsuit pretty much keeps that from happening as long as Shatner is alive, because, while he may have a price were he’d allow it, his ego is probably going to make it cost prohibitive. Maybe his estate after he has died would provide more reasonably rates but they probably would get more letting his image dance with vacuum cleaners.

They only avenue for MJ to achieve that is possibly the open questions I have on how DEAD MEN DON’T WEAR PLAID dealt with it? As in, I don’t know. I suspect it was a copyright dance involving fair use sampling, but as I said, I don’t know.

1238. jas_montreal - August 17, 2013

Just wanna point this out. The fans have spoken. Worst films to best trek films:

13. ‘Star Trek Into Darkness’
12. ‘Star Trek V: The Final Frontier’
11. ‘Star Trek Insurrection’
10. ‘Star Trek Nemesis’
9. ‘Star Trek: The Motion Picture’
8. ‘Star Trek Generations’
7. ‘Galaxy Quest’
6. ‘Star Trek’
5. ‘Star Trek: The Search For Spock’
4. ‘Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home’
3. ‘Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country’
2. ‘Star Trek: First Contact’
1. ‘Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan’

the PEOPLE have spoken :)

1239. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

#1233. Tom – August 17, 2013

In “Trials and Tribble-ations” Paramount legal did contact people but I’m not finding a clear consensus on what they did to resolve it. More digging

1240. Barney - August 17, 2013

1236. PaulB – August 17, 2013

The world freaked out over the film because of Heath’s death. If heath was still alive do you honestly think TDK would have been what it was,

TDK is the perfect example of an overhyped and overrated movie.

Also it is not my opinion, there are a lot of people that think TDK is overrated they are just scared to voice it out because they don’t want Nolan fan boys to go rogue on them.

ST09 is even better than TDK.

1241. Jonboc - August 17, 2013

#1240. “The world freaked out over the film because of Heath’s death. If heath was still alive do you honestly think TDK would have been what it was,”

Yep.

1242. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

According to Memory Alpha:

“The permission of the TOS actors had to be sought to use their performances in the various episodes the archive footage was taken from. It took the producers three months to negotiate for the use of the footage. Walter Koenig remarked he was paid “eight times more” for the use of his likeness than he was for the original episode. ”

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Trials_and_Tribble-ations_%28episode%29

1243. Tom - August 17, 2013

1242 Disinvited

Good find. I am just floating ideas out there. I think it would be fun to have the original series cast involved in some way for the 50th anniversary. Documentaries and intervews doesnt really do it for me.. If it would indeed harm the movie then of course the writers, producers would not include them.

Right now my attitude is lets enjoy the upcoming anniversary in 2016, have some fun with it and hopefully have a great movie to celebrate it.
The new cast is doing a great job regardless of what people think of Into Darkness. The movie has brought out strong feelings on both sides of the fence. Again at least we are discussing Trek and not wondering if it will ever be back.

1244. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

#1235. Disinvited – August 17, 2013

“vigor” should be “rigor” but I suppose both could apply.

1245. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

#1243. Tom – August 17, 2013

And not to hammer it home too hard, TRIALS AND TRIBBLE-ATIONS was, indeed, an anniversary effort too.

1246. Red Dead Ryan - August 17, 2013

Did “The Dark Knight” making a billion dollars at the box office have something to do with Heath Ledger’s death? Sure. No doubt about it.

Did Heath Ledger win an Oscar at least partially because of his premature death? Absolutely!

Do these two points change the fact that, on its own, TDK is a great movie? Absolutely not!

And I have to thank MJ for putting up the “twenty highest rated movies” list. While there are a couple I still haven’t seen, and some I wouldn’t rank as high as they are, it is still a very credible ranking that compares fairly accurately with most peoples’ tastes and preferences.

1247. dmduncan - August 17, 2013

Fans also probably think TWOK is the best movie ever made. They would probably rate Casablanca behind the worst episode of Voyager or Enterprise.

1248. Ahmed - August 17, 2013

Here are some articles about the Fall season:

The Ultimate Guide to this Fall’s Science Fiction and Fantasy TV!

http://io9.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-this-falls-science-fiction-and-f-1149999892

Of the new & returning Sci-Fi shows, I’m very excited about:

Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
The Walking Dead.
Arrow
Grimm
Almost Human
Doctor Who
Atlantis

New shows that I will check out:

Sleepy Hollow
The Tomorrow People

For all other shows both Sci-Fi & drama, check this out:

2013-14 Serialized TV Planner: What’s New? What’s Returning? All Premiere Dates Revealed

http://seriable.com/serialized-tv-series-2013-14-schedule-planner/

1249. K-7 - August 17, 2013

@ Barney

Seriously?

You don’t like IMDB because your Justin Beiber movie got a low rating, and the limited ROTJ was rated lower than Nolan’s great TDKR?

LOL LOL LOL

You just disproved your own argument, guy.

@ Disinvited

You are exaggerating your arugment. IMDB,for one, exactly describes the methodology for rating their Top 250 movies as followed:

“The formula for calculating the Top Rated 250 Titles gives a true Bayesian estimate:

weighted rating (WR) = (v ÷ (v+m)) × R + (m ÷ (v+m)) × C
where:
R = average for the movie (mean) = (Rating)
v = number of votes for the movie = (votes)
m = minimum votes required to be listed in the Top 250 (currently 25000)
C = the mean vote across the whole report (currently 7.0)

for the Top 250, only votes from regular voters are considered.”

And I bet if you emailed them, someone there would be happy to provide your more details. So why don’t your stop your whining and insulting people and go do some research to back up your supposed claim that they are unwilling to provide you their methods.

And have you ever hear of Regression Analysis? Well, one could take many Top 100 movie lists from people around the world, put them in a spreadsheet, and do a mathematical regression analysis on them, and then determine the Top 100 movies from this. And then you could plot the Top 100 movies from IMDB or other User Review sites against them, to determine if they match up. This is calling validating a data set. You could go and do that if you really want to find out how good these reviews are. I’d be shocked if the results didn’t show that the IMDB Top 100 is pretty close to being what the result of the regression shows — i.e. I would expect it would easily validate IMDB’s ratings.

@ Garak’s Prides

Yes, as someone who works with statistics at work daily, you are correct. When you have hundreds of thousands of voluntary inputs on a simple poll with only one independent variable (the rating level), mathematically, the results of the poll will eventually become nearly identical to the results of say a random phone poll with 100 users.

In practice though, Dis invited infers that a survey tool like a random phone or intercept poll is vastly superior to an internet poll. Well, those polls typically only get respondents who want to respond — i.e. people who will not hang up the phone or who only stay on if the topic of the poll interests them, and people on the street who are interested in movies when the interviewee tells them they are doing a movie poll. So actually, you have much of the same bias that you do in an internet poll — you get respondents who are interested in the topic.

1250. K-7 - August 17, 2013

@1238

Enough with the deception please, Montreal Paul.

1251. Basement Blogger - August 17, 2013

@ 1238, 1249

Stop the intellectual dishonesty. Trekkers unite and listen to logic.

Hold on. jas_ montreal is Montreal Paul? If jas_montreal is Montreal Paul, come out, you coward. Why? You questioned my intelligence when I deduced that Cumberbatch was Khan. You pretty much insulted Red Dead Ryan, MJ, and myself. We were right and you were so wrong. Now it’s time to eat crow. How does it taste?

And by the way, you are being completely dishonest by implying a majority of Star Trek fans hated STID.

Trekkers, here are the facts. The story was reported by TrekWeb. No other Trek site touched it. Why? It comes from a blogger by the name of David Faraci for Bad Ass Digest. Link. At least TrekWeb posted the source. Let’s look at his report.

1. Faraci hates STID. This is what I call consider the source.
2. No numbers were linked to the poll.
3. Galaxy Quest which is not a Star Trek movie is on the poll. Can we take a poll with Galaxy Quest on it.i seriously?
4. It was taken at a forum at the Las Vegas Convention called One Trek Mind.
5. According to Faraci, there were one hundred Trekkers at the forum. In comparison, we know over a thousand Trekkers were at the Vegas convention. See story on breaking the costume Trekker record.
http://badassdigest.com/2013/08/11/the-star-trek-movies-as-ranked-by-star-trek-con-goers/

Here are some real facts. Star Trek Into Dakness is the highest grossing movie of the franchise. Link. As for critical praise, Rotten Tomates using its “gimmick’ phrase rates it at 87 percent. Metacritic say 72 percent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Into_Darkness

Montreal Paul, I would suggest you not question my logic. You were wrong before and you might incur the wrath of Bernie. :-)

1252. Basement Blogger - August 17, 2013

@ 1247

Dmduncan,

I like Voyager and Enterprise but consider Casablanca to be the greatest movie ever.

Did you hear about Area 51? U.S. says it exists. Wow. Big news. Used by the CIA to test spy planes. Hold on? What is the CIA doing testing spy planes? I thought that was the Air Force’s job. And what is the CIA doing out in Area 51?

No aliens. Nothing to see here. :-) Where’s Bob Orci when you need him?

1253. Ahmed - August 17, 2013

@ 1250. Basement Blogger – August 17, 2013

“Trekkers, here are the facts. The story was reported by TrekWeb. No other Trek site touched it. Why? It comes from a blogger by the name of David Faraci for Bad Ass Digest. Link. At least TrekWeb posted the source. Let’s look at his report.”

Actually it was reported by other publications:

Into Darkness voted worst Star Trek film by trekkies
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/aug/14/star-trek-into-darkness-voted-worst

‘Star Trek Into Darkness’ Voted Worst ‘Star Trek’ Film By Fans
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/14/star-trek-into-darkness-worst-film_n_3755769.html

Into Darkness voted ‘worst Star Trek film’ by trekkies
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/into-darkness-voted-worst-star-trek-film-by-trekkies-8763317.html

“No other Trek site touched it. Why?”

For the same reason the mainstream media won’t report on a story, the fear of losing access. If AP was here, I bet you that he would have ignored this story completely like the other Trek sites did.

And I think the fans were merely sending a message to Abrams that STID wasn’t that good as it was supposed to be.

1254. Ahmed - August 17, 2013

@ 1251. Basement Blogger – August 17, 2013

“Did you hear about Area 51? U.S. says it exists. Wow. Big news. Used by the CIA to test spy planes. Hold on? What is the CIA doing testing spy planes? I thought that was the Air Force’s job.”

The CIA used to run this program where they used U-2 airplanes to spy of USSR during the cold war.

Check this about one famous incident involving the U-2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-2_incident

As for Area 51, nice of them to dumb the news on a Friday where not many people will pay attention to it :)

I bet there were more stuff happening there than just his U-2 issue.

1255. Phil - August 17, 2013

@1238. Well, perhaps a handful of people. This origion of this list has been thoroughly debunked….

and besides, any poll that has Generations ahead of TMP is seriously flawed.

This person has spoken, and Generations is still safe as worst Trek film ever.

1256. Tom - August 17, 2013

#1245 Disinvited

You didn’t care for rials and Trib ?.

1257. Marja - August 17, 2013

1227 MJ, I am shocked, shocked to find that Casablance is not in here! ;)

1238, montreal, and I suspect, these are the PEOPLE who attended that Creation Con panel and who answered that poll, the number of whom was a grand total of 100 or so. [After research: YEP.]

1252 Ahmed, surely you know these three sites based their stories on the bogus poll at Creation Con. How often do “reporters” or websites rely on data they themselves have gathered? Not very often these days. No, they hear a story reported by X Source, and repeat the data from X Source to look as if they are “reporting ‘news’”. To wit [from the links you posted]:

The Guardian’s sub headline: “Convention rates JJ Abrams’ box-office hit poorest in entire canon – behind even Galaxy Quest, which isn’t a Star Trek film” … they didn’t even bother to include the word ‘attendees’ after the word ‘convention’.

HuffPo [a news aggregator, not a news originator] ‘As reported by Badass Digest editor Devin Faraci, “Star Trek Into Darkness” finished 13th out of the 12 official “Star Trek” films produced since 1979′s “Star Trek: The Motion Picture.”‘ OK, so he’s the one who headed the panel, the one who’s been bad-mouthing STiD since it came out, the one who headlined his article using the word “faggy” – so I can’t give him too much credit as a “reporter” – he’s more an “opinionator.”

And here is the quote from The Independent, ‘The Trekkies have spoken. Into Darkness has been declared the worst film in the Star Trek franchise, in spite of its critical success and impressive performance at the box office. …Sci-fi fans condemned it via a poll at a recent convention in Las Vegas, after apparently being left frustrated by its “plot holes” and reliance on “fast-paced action”.’

These are typical examples of today’s all-too-frequent repeating of news instead of researching and reporting the news.

I get that you didn’t like Into Darkness, but wow. So 100 fans sent a message to Abrams, plus the fans here who hated the film, making the number of un-fans of STiD, let’s see, maybe 120. If I count some other fans on other boards who may not have stopped by TrekMovie to register their displeasure, maybe we can bump that number to 200-300, depending on the number of commenters on other boards with an average of total STiD haters at about 8% [based only on what I've seen here]?

See, I just did bogus “reporting” too, but I’ll bet you noticed that : )

1258. Basement Blogger - August 17, 2013

@ 1652 1653

Ahmed,

But the source is still David Faraci, STID hater. And the Huffington Post story doesn’t analyze the facts. The fact is a majority of one hundred Trekkers in a convention forum hated STID. Hey, if some Tr ekker hates STID, that’s her prerogative. BUT TO IMPLY THAT TREKKERS HATED STID IS NOT ACCURATE. Everybody keeps saying general audiences liked it. Huh? In that “general” audience were a ton of Trekkers, hardcore, normal and minor. . Again, the major Trek sites ignored it. Trek Core, Trek Today, StarTrek.com and this site. There’s must be accuracy in reporting stuff. Until somebody like Public Policy Polling actually does a poll, we don’t know how many Trekkers hated STID. But I will say this again. The only poll that counts right now is the box office. STID is the highest grossing movie of the franchise.

Dmduncan, Bob Orci and myself like the topic of UFOs. So, I really doubt that Area 51 is just about the U-2. After all, if you trespass there, you could be shot. Leslie Kean did a book in which she got government officials to admit that UFOs are real. And I just saw parts of the documentary on that book. Can’t say Area 51 has aliens but the topic is interesting to me.

1259. Ahmed - August 17, 2013

I don’t watch Bill O’Reilly that much but I just came across this segment on his show about Star Trek.

Watters’ World: The Star Trek edition

http://video.foxnews.com/v/2609390006001/watters-world-the-star-trek-edition/?playlist_id=929831930001

And it seem that O’Reilly doesn’t know much about Star Trek. At one point , at the end of the segment, he wondering if LeVar Burton was playing a Klingon or some other alien race !!!!

But, the segment was funny, I will give him that.

1260. Basement Blogger - August 17, 2013

Oops, 1256 was directed at 1252, 1253 posts.

1261. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

#1250. Basement Blogger – August 17, 2013

Speaking of intellectual honesty and logic, those two teach us that the truth is absolute. It remains so whether the despised, heretic or the devil himself doth spake it.

Pointing out that a blogger hates STID is not a refutation of the poll in any way but rather merely an exercise in attacking a messenger because you don’t like the message.

Also with a little due diligence anyone could discover the source of the story is

http://www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-las-vegas-2013-day-2-recap

An official corporate STAR TREK site which I think would have pulled the posting and the blogger:

http://www.startrek.com/news_articles/blogger/Jordan+Hoffman

by now if it was indeed as filled with dishonesty, misrepresentations, and lies as you imply.

1262. Phil - August 17, 2013

@1256. Yeah, it was funny. The furries would have been right at home at the Trek convention, from the looks of things….

And apologies to Shat. Still don’t want to see you in the next movie, but looking good, otherwise. If we need someone over seventy for a role, I’d humbly suggest someone approach Raquel Welch.

1263. Ahmed - August 17, 2013

@ 1259. Phil – August 17, 2013

“If we need someone over seventy for a role, I’d humbly suggest someone approach Raquel Welch.”

Wait, is she still alive ??

1264. Phil - August 17, 2013

^^^
Very much so, and aging well.

1265. MJ (The Original). - August 17, 2013

Disinvited,

You earlier said, very specifically:

“those sites methods are arcane and secret”

Yet, low and behold, IMDB specifically provides the following explanation of their statistical calculations for their Top 250 rated movies:

“The formula for calculating the Top Rated 250 Titles gives a true Bayesian estimate:

weighted rating (WR) = (v ÷ (v+m)) × R + (m ÷ (v+m)) × C
where:
R = average for the movie (mean) = (Rating)
v = number of votes for the movie = (votes)
m = minimum votes required to be listed in the Top 250 (currently 25000)
C = the mean vote across the whole report (currently 7.0)

for the Top 250, only votes from regular voters are considered.”

So you claimed quite strongly that these sites are deliberatey trying to keep their methdogologies and calculations secret, yet here we have a precise definition from them of how they calculate the ratings?

Please do your homework next time before you make outrageous blanket statements that suggest that these sites do not provide any explanation of their calculations.

This incorrect assertion by you to me calls into question the validity of your entire argument here. You obviously didn’t taken the time to check on each User Ratings site to see what methodology explanations they provided — you just assumed you were correct, without bothering to even check first. This definitely is not consistent with the scientific method.

This reminds me of the lazy geology and fossil work which led scientists to simply assume that the Permian Extinction was one massive event. However, quite easily, a single geologist from Colby College in Maine collected samples and showed that the Permian extinction was actually multiple extinctions across different rock layers. It was always there for anybody to find quite easily, but most scientists in the field just went with the assumption without checking — this was lazy science at its worst.

Lazy science is bad science. Garbage assumptions = garbage conclusions. And “shooting first and asking questions later” is just bad science.

1266. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

For convenience sake here’s a more direct link to the results in questions:

http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/F-OTM-Best-Movie.png

Also, in the history of Trek it is well known that the Network paid more attention to handwritten letters because by their calculations for every person that felt moved to go to such trouble there were 10 others who held the same opinion but didn’t write. If you note in the Day 2 Recap of my earlier link people came to the microphone and campaigned passionately for the placement of their favorite. That’s a level of effort worthy of similar Corporate extrapolation – however it should be noted the tally of the numbers that came to the microphone to publicly campaign for each candidate has not been made available and more’s the pity.

1267. MJ (The Original). - August 17, 2013

Monteal Paul….whoops, I mean JAZ Montreal…LOL…I am still waiting for your promised apology that you pledged to provide on my Khan prediction.

1268. MJ (The Original). - August 17, 2013

Hey all,

The stuff published about Area 51 by the government this week has been known for years. There is absolutely nothing new, outside of a bit more description on the U-2 program.

1269. MJ (The Original). - August 17, 2013

@1250

Basement Blogger,

I find it telling that Disinvited simply chose to completely, ignore — effectively sweeping it under the rug — your key 5 points on information of Farci and the poll, and instead just lazily pasted in a couple of web links that were completely peripheral to you 5 points.

I’d like to see Disinvinted address each of your five points, specifically.

1270. MJ (The Original). - August 17, 2013

Intersing how The New York Times relies on TR user ratings data for movies:

“Building on the OpusData movie numbers I wrote about last week, Kiran Bhattaram on The Times’s interactive news team helped me match up film listings with Rotten Tomatoes data on critics’ scores versus audiences’ scores. (We used Rotten Tomatoes data because it has not only public A.P.I.’s, but also a gigantic user base, with thousands of user-submitted reviews for even relatively small films. That makes it a good way to take the “pulse” on popular views of a wide swath of films, since it’s impossible to conduct a randomized poll of viewers of every film ever made.)”

By the way, API – Application Program Interface. What this means, is that if you get a API connection to the RT database, you can see the entire database, the numbers in it, and use the data in Excel or other spreadsheets. This is what is called “transparency” in databases.

So the RT raw data and methods are available through an API — which it sounds like at least the media can get access to. But I would be anyone could get API access by requesting it from RT in an email.

So again, as with IMDB, Disvinted claims of some super-secret set of data and calculations has been proven to be wrong.

In the scientific method, we check first before making blanked assumptions about a topic.

1271. dmduncan - August 17, 2013

@ 1251. Basement Blogger

Well then you’re my kind of Star Trek fan!

Regarding Groom Lake, let that be a lesson. CIA denials are meaningless.

1272. Basement Blogger - August 17, 2013

@ 1258

Disinvited,

When I’m wrong, i’ll admit it. I was wrong to say that Star Trek.com did not report the results of the pole. I was looking over the headlines for the news, and missed it. To find where Star Trek.com reported one had to read the convention news. It was not a headline article as TrekWeb did it. .

However, there’s no report how the poll was done. I can’t say for sure but it looks like it was done by applause. If Jordan Hoffman wants to write about how the poll was done, we don’t know at this time. There were no numbers to the poll so it’s beginning to look like it was done by applause. By the way, David Faraci is the source that TrekWeb and the Huffington Post use.

As for questioning David Faraci’s fairness, , well the fact is he hates STID. He says there was one hundred in the room. Okay, maybe there was. But this is like asking Fox News to be fair to President Obama or put it this way. It would be like asking Fox News to praise President Obama. Maybe there was less than one hundred in the room. He didn’t report how the poll was done. So, if you trust Faraci, good for you. Maybe you’ll trust Fox News in the way it treats Obama too.

1273. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

#1262. MJ (The Original). – August 17, 2013

While the formula is a good thing to point out, I also mentioned “a testable mechanism” there is no information in the formula you provided on how they filter (for example: How do they define and by what criteria do they filter “regular voters”) and test the votes for validity and how they test the accuracy of their mechanism to so do and account for active attempts to game their system and reduce the effect of outright attempts at fraud.

You know where I live in SoCal, at great expense, electronic touch screen voting was introduced, promoted as more accurate, yadda yadda yadda. But then when they were tested, lo and behold, the vast majority that had been adopted weren’t found to be any of of those things and so now, by court order, gather dust.

And, I hope you realize as I did mention the scientific method, that I am, indeed, open to new information. However, as I am not the one making the extraordinary claim that Imdb and other online movie sites opinion polls are going to the effort and expense to gathering data in manner that meets the rigor of the scientific method, it’s incumbent upon you to provide proof that they so do. And to that end you have provided one formula and I commend you for providing that one piece of evidence, but you need to do better than that.

I now draw your attention you to the following Imdb disclaimer:

“TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMISSIBLE BY APPLICABLE LAW, IMDB DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.”

And note that your homework, indeed, needs some tending to.

1274. Basement Blogger - August 17, 2013

@ 1267

MJ,

We took so much abuse for deducing that Cumberbatch was Khan. Get this, the three of us, you, Red Dead Ryan, and myself don’t agree on everything. We’ve had strong debates. Yet we all made the correct deduction about BC;s character. We had our intelligence questioned. Were called idiots by Dean-O. Oh yeah, I forgot Curious Cadet was one of the tormentors.

One of the worst was Montreal Paul. I think he wrote his name Montreal_Paul So if Jas_Montreal is Montreal Paul, time to fess up, dude. Montreal Paul time to eat crow. Come on. Say you’re sorry for treating us like dirt. And say you were wrong.

1275. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

#1270. MJ (The Original). – August 17, 2013

The NYT is not a peer-reviewed science journal. You are grasping at straws.

And your having to resort to inference and conjecture about what you contend is “open” information on data gathering and formulas speaks volumes.

Again I draw attention to RT’s disclaimer:

“Rotten Tomatoes expressly disclaim all warranties of any kind, whether express or implied, including, but not limited to, the implied warranties of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose and non-infringement.”

And here:

http://developer.rottentomatoes.com/

Note it does not give access to their Tomato Meter formula or anything other than going with their gut on how they resolve the all or nothingness they shuffle lukewarm reviews into in a science based manner if at all.

1276. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

#1270. MJ (The Original). – August 17, 2013

Besides when the a founder of the commercial venture that is RT says the meter they use to measure reviews is a gimmick, I doubt I am ever going to be convinced that outsiders attempts to give their numbers more import is anything more than that without extraordinary proof.

1277. Disinvited - August 17, 2013

#1272. Basement Blogger – August 17, 2013

Thank you for acknowledging that. And, I agree, there are unknowns. However, my point, is there are lots of unknowns in these other polls that people accept without question. And I think we can both agree, that at best this Con poll could only measure the rankings of the attendees.

Till then, I suppose we’ll just have to keep an eye on Jordan’s blog to see if more info surfaces:

http://www.startrek.com/news_articles/blogger/Jordan+Hoffman

as I feel certain the real meat of went on as far as the Entertainment industry concerns itself is the totals of who felt strongly enough to stand up and campaign for their favorite. Not saying it’s scientific, mind you, but that for whatever reasons that sort of thing gets noticed. Although, if I believe the word out of Bad Robot and Paramount, not so much there but I still think it raises eyebrows. Maybe I’m a fool for believing “CBS cares.” but the trouble they are going through to reissue their catalog while trying to add value to it gives me a feeling something is going on.

1278. Marja - August 17, 2013

1259 Ahmed, the editing on that segment was quite funny, but they were pretty patronizing about Star Trek in general. As to the ending part, I’m with LeVar on the subject of Bill O’.

1279. Basement Blogger - August 17, 2013

Okay time for a break from all this debating. Time for another segment of

KING OF THE KHANS: RICARDO MONTALBAN

Posted this on chat but it drives the women wild. We know Montalban ccan dance. But he can sell cars. So here it is. Ricardo Montalban introduces us to Corinthian leather. Went to a leather shop to see if they had any jackets in Corinthian leather. Owner had one of his motorcycle friends tattoo Geek in my butt. I keeeed. I keeeeed my geekiness.

Can Khan sell cars or can Khan sell cars?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsg97bxuJnc

1280. jas_montreal - August 17, 2013

@ 1250 and 1251 (Basement Blogger and K-7)

I’m not Montreal Paul.

1281. Keachick - August 17, 2013

William Shatner is a capable and fit 82 year old who has clearly not let himself go because he can still ride horses, despite undergoing hip replacement surgery, etc. He may well be as fit, if not fitter, than many half his age.

It is totally unbelievable the stuff that I am reading here. It makes absolutely no sense. William Shatner is the face of a fictional character and will always be that fictional character if he plays that character. How could he not be? It is the SAME OLDER PERSON playing the same older character!

Geez! Saying that the episode The Deadly Years which projected how a 35 year old might look when he reaches 65-70 years is NOT the same as having the ACTUAL, REAL, older actor show you how his character would look at an older age.

Holy Shit….

1282. Basement Blogger - August 17, 2013

@ 1280

Jas Paul

Well, I’ll have to take your word for it, that you are not Montreal Paul. Because you better not be. :-) Still it’s intellectually dishonest when you point out that “fans have spoken” in that Vegas poll rating STID last. @ 1238.

If you didn’t know. It was a poll done in a forum. Approximately one hundred fans attended. According to the posted Bill O’ Reilly report, about twelve thousand fans attended the convention. So a majority of one hundred Trek fans hated STID out of twelve thousand. There was no accounting or numbers. And oh, they included a non-Trek film, Galaxy Quest. Yeah, I saw your emoticon but that come last in your post.
So I took the last sentence as tongue in cheek.

1283. Red Dead Ryan - August 17, 2013

With all of the factual errors Disinvited has made, its easy to confuse him with Curious Cadet. :-)

1284. Red Dead Ryan - August 17, 2013

I believe that in January, Montreal_Paul had said he’d disappear from the site until the movie came out, at which time he’d return. MP was insisting that the villain was NOT Khan at the time, and its very telling that we haven’t heard (read?) a peep from him in about eight months. :-)

1285. DiscoSpock - August 17, 2013

Disinvited,

You did pretty much tell us all that these sites kept everything secret. But obviously, IMDB provides their equations, and RT actually provides a web service API to access their full database.

Were you just making up your statements regarding how secret these user reviews were, or did you just assume that they were secret? Either way, you were way off here.

It’s really hard for me to trust any statements you make at this point on this issue, given how far off base you were concerning access to the calculations and databases on IMDB and RT.

And you keep defending this Creation Con floor poll, yet we don’t have any information close to what is available from IMDB and RT on their calculations/data? This is hypocritical.

1286. Disinvited - August 18, 2013

#1285. DiscoSpock – August 17, 2013

And I prefaced that in the introduction mentioning the “scientific method in which you are providing a testable mechanism which can prove your hypothesis wrong.” To date, MJ has failed to provide that information.

The math is math and important. But the data gathering and collecting part IS science as in determining what is noise and what is valid to be counted and applicable. You can have the most perfect arithmetic in the world but if the data isn’t being collected and filtered under a strict scientific protocol which provides a mechanism to prove when it’s wrong, then it’s nothing but noise signifying nothing, That scientific criteria is what I refer to as being kept secret. One example, we are told that these sites implement measures to counter attempts at gaming the system, but what exactly it is that they are doing in this regard is not revealed nor submitted to the rigor of peer review so that it can be determined if their methods are sound.

Also, great science papers are not written by the faint of heart, hedging their bets with disclaimers as to the results being fit.

1287. boborci - August 18, 2013

fear setting in…

new mountain to climb….

1288. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - August 18, 2013

@1287. boborci – August 18, 2013

Greetings. Set your goal and stick with it.

In the words of the song Garden Party: “But it’s all right now, I’ve learned my lesson well. You see, you can’t please everyone, so you’ve got to please yourself”…

I will trust that what you come up with will end up pleasing me as well.

1289. Basement Blogger - August 18, 2013

@ 1287

Bob Orci,

I’m sorry. Didn’t you write the screenplaxy for the first Transformers, Star Trek 2009 and STID.? And you’re afraid? Dude, those movies made a sh++t load of money. By the way, you know I liked Star Trek 2009 but criticized it. So, you know i’m not kissing your a….. ss.

Let’s talk about other things. What are your thoughts about the CIA admitting that Area 51 exists? Is Bob Lazar full of it? And let’s talk movies. Can’t get enough of Lovesick with Dudley Moore. We need to get Aurore in the conversation because the soundtrack was by Phillpe Sarde. He’s French. Aurore is French. I am watching while blitzed. Love the romance. Love the psychological aspects. Sir Alec Guiness plays Freud.

Bob, relax. Play video games. Play L.A. Noire. Marvel at how they got facial expressions in a freaking video game. I got a bunch of comedy videos from the Daily Show and Stephen Colbert on my blog. Watch that for a couple of hours. And come back when I;m sober. I keeeed. I kkeeeeeed. Seriously, hope to catch you when I’m not blitzed.

1290. Dave H. - August 18, 2013

@ MJ (The Original).

“By the way, API – Application Program Interface. What this means, is that if you get a API connection to the RT database, you can see the entire database, the numbers in it, and use the data in Excel or other spreadsheets. This is what is called “transparency” in databases. So the RT raw data and methods are available through an API — which it sounds like at least the media can get access to. But I would be anyone could get API access by requesting it from RT in an email. So again, as with IMDB, Disvinted claims of some super-secret set of data and calculations has been proven to be wrong.”

Excellent Point. Yes, a Best Practice in the data industry today is to make available databases to API. It enahnces transparency to meta-data, and can increase public or user confidence in the data sets.

@ Disinvited

You’ve dug yourself into a bit of a hole by claiming that these User Review sites have no information available; yet we see now that quite a bit of data and methodology information is in fact available from these sites — completely contrary to what you were telling all of us here?

At this point, I cant really separate what in your posts are assumptions, conjecture and facts. You have created a severe credibility issue here with so much of your primary statements being wrong when you claimed that these sites were supposedly being secretive.

@ Basement Blogger

“However, there’s no report how the poll was done. I can’t say for sure but it looks like it was done by applause. If Jordan Hoffman wants to write about how the poll was done, we don’t know at this time. There were no numbers to the poll so it’s beginning to look like it was done by applause. By the way, David Faraci is the source that TrekWeb and the Huffington Post use. As for questioning David Faraci’s fairness, , well the fact is he hates STID. He says there was one hundred in the room. Okay, maybe there was. But this is like asking Fox News to be fair to President Obama or put it this way. It would be like asking Fox News to praise President Obama. Maybe there was less than one hundred in the room. He didn’t report how the poll was done. So, if you trust Faraci, good for you. Maybe you’ll trust Fox News in the way it treats Obama too.”

I agree completely. And I noticed that you raised five key points on this that I believe several of us are still waiting for Disinvited to address???

@ Disinvited (again)

“I now draw your attention you to the following Imdb disclaimer:”

“TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMISSIBLE BY APPLICABLE LAW, IMDB DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.”

Ah, but this is a strawman argument, as polls done professionally by Gallup and others have similar disclaimers. Here’s one example, and I can provide many, many others of a similar nature for you:

“THE INFORMATION PROVIDED ON THE DIGIPOLL WEB SITE DOES NOT CONSTITUTE LEGAL OR PROFESSIONAL ADVICE NOR IS IT CONVEYED OR INTENDED TO BE CONVEYED IN THE COURSE OF ANY ADVISER-CLIENT DISCOURSE, BUT IS INTENDED TO BE GENERAL INFORMATION WITH RESPECT TO COMMON BUSINESS ISSUES.”

So your point here is simply a strawman argument, which I have now invalidated.

1291. Dave H. - August 18, 2013

Mr, Orci,

Please consider taking the story from one of many great Star Trek novels. The cost to the buy the story would not be great, and you and Kurtzman could then work to develop the screenplay from it.

You don’t need to reinvent the wheel here. Why put so much pressure for the story, when there are so many great story ideas already available to you and the studio?

Hell, base it on David Gerrold’s The Galactic Whirlpool, or Joe Haldeman’s Planet of Judgement. You could not go wrong with those.

1292. Disinvited - August 18, 2013

#1256. Tom – August 17, 2013

I most certainly DID love TRIALS AND TRIBBLE-ATIONS.

My point was all those “old” actors did “show” up for that anniversary nodding episode and were remunerated for it.

And because it keeps getting lost in the shuffle: while I refute the notion that in today’s Hollywood William Shatner is incapable of recreating any version of his Kirk character on the silver screen for this or that reason, I’m perfectly fine with him appearing in some other role in an anniversary nod.

1293. boborci - August 18, 2013

wise advice. talk more soon

1294. Barney Fife - August 18, 2013

1287. boborci – August 18, 2013
“fear setting in…

new mountain to climb….”

Must be that mountain in that Paramount logo! On top of that you got that CBS ‘eye’ logo keeping track of you.

I’d say you’re ‘eyeing’ the ‘peak’ of your career in the next couple years!

Keep calm, take deep breaths and check in with your friends at Trekmovie every once in a while.

1295. crazydaystrom - August 18, 2013

1292. Barney Fife -
“I’d say you’re ‘eyeing’ the ‘peak’ of your career in the next couple years!”
__________

Man I’m not sure if that’s something to wish for the guy. He’s still young. I’m going to guess you don’t feel it’s downhill for him soon, Barney. I’m not his biggest fan, to be sure, but I’d like for him to impressed the hell outta me one day. Maybe with the next Trek film, but I’m not expecting that (to be sure)!

1296. Hugh Hoyland - August 18, 2013

@boborci

“fear setting in…

new mountain to climb….”

Its exciting AND a little scary to start a new script isnt it?

1297. crazydaystrom - August 18, 2013

A small thing, I would assume, but please take just a little moment in the next movie to explain how female officers in the ‘minidress’ uniforms have their rank recognized. It would be nice to have that addressed and would add a little more common sense and practically to the mix.

1298. Ahmed - August 18, 2013

@ 1287. boborci – August 18, 2013

“fear setting in…
new mountain to climb….”

Hope this mountain is not one of Lovecraft’s Mountains of Madness :)

1299. Barney Fife - August 18, 2013

1295. crazydaystrom

“Man I’m not sure if that’s something to wish for the guy. He’s still young. I’m going to guess you don’t feel it’s downhill for him soon, Barney.”

Oh no, not at all! He has a long career ahead of him. I just wanted to do a quick play on words because of the new mountain he’s about to climb.

1300. DiscoSpock - August 18, 2013

@1290 – Dave H

“@ Disinvited — You’ve dug yourself into a bit of a hole by claiming that these User Review sites have no information available; yet we see now that quite a bit of data and methodology information is in fact available from these sites — completely contrary to what you were telling all of us here? At this point, I cant really separate what in your posts are assumptions, conjecture and facts. You have created a severe credibility issue here with so much of your primary statements being wrong when you claimed that these sites were supposedly being secretive.”

Agreed. I don’t think Disinvinted even knows now what in his arguments are assumptions and what are facts. This is what happens when you don’t take the time to check you information first before you post here.

“I agree completely. And I noticed that you raised five key points on this that I believe several of us are still waiting for Disinvited to address???”

Yes, I too am waiting for Disinvited to adress, point by point, Basement Blogger’s issues on the Creation Las Vegas Poll. Well, let’s hope that the reason for the delay here is that THIS TIME Disinvited is working to check his facts first — lesson learned, perhaps? ;-)

“Ah, but this is a strawman argument, as polls done professionally by Gallup and others have similar disclaimers. Here’s one example, and I can provide many, many others of a similar nature for you;”

Good job debunking that myth. Yes, most polls have disclaimers like that.

1301. Basement Blogger - August 18, 2013

@ 1287

Bob Orci,

I’m sober. I hope this is not about Orson Scott Card going off the reservation with those controversial comments about Obama and his national police force composed of young urban men which we know he means African Americans. He’ls also anti-gay which is not good for the Hollywood community and modern America. Look, he’s a creative guy. They can get loopy at times. And his brand of conservatism is mainstream to the conservative movement. The novel Ender’s Game is considered a classic. Sorry, haven’t read it but I’ve heard about it. .

If there’s traction with this Card stuff, , here’s how Lionsgate should handle it. The TV commercials should feature the stars and you. Here’s how I would start the narrative, “From the writers of Transformers, Star Trek…. ” “Starring Harrison Ford, Academy Award winner Ben Kingsley, …”

If it gets worse, I would again ask principals to issue reputations of Card’s ideas. You, the director, the stars should all come out and say, “Card has right to express himself but we do not agree (ideas on everything…. ) … ” Everyone can handle it their own way. Some could go further. “I support gay rights and ability of gay people to marry… ”

The studio could do a counter strategy. This is cynical but it’s about getting box office. Market the movie to conservatives. Advertise on Fox News. Pump up the ad buys in southern states. Look at what happened to Chick-filet. There was a sales increase after anit -gay remarks by its president. “From gay hating author Orson Scott Card…. ” Just joking about the last sentence.

I’m going to see the movie. I believe science fiction fans will understand that Card has a right to speak but we don’t have to agree with him. It could be worse. You could have cast Mel Gibson in the film.

1302. Keachick - August 18, 2013

This thread and site is fritzing out again…:(

1303. Brian Matthews - August 18, 2013

Has anyone ever noticed that none of the TREK movies have a plot line that fulfills this mythical cross between raw exploration & character development? Every storyline has an outside agent/antagonist that thrusts the characters into a storyline that involves anything but exploration: V’ger; Khan; backwash of Khan; probe microwaving Earth’s oceans; crappy director – er, god-seeking terrorist; a Nixon-esgue peace parable; the Nexus; the Borg; narcissistic alien squatters; and Clone Wars.

Where’s the exploration?

Some of us have lived long enough to see our TREK evolve… and if they can keep pulling off gems like watching the Vengeance catch up with the Enterprise at warp and take it out – I will be in my seat for the fun!

1304. Phil - August 18, 2013

@1297. This is Hollywood – I’m sure they will figure out something to keep the Bob Filner’s out there happy…..

1305. MJ (The Original). - August 18, 2013

@1290 / Dave H to Basement Blogger: “I agree completely. And I noticed that you raised five key points on this that I believe several of us are still waiting for Disinvited to address???”

@1300 / Disco Spock: “Yes, I too am waiting for Disinvited to address, point by point, Basement Blogger’s issues on the Creation Las Vegas Poll”

Me too, guys? Where’s the beef?

1306. Disinvited - August 18, 2013

# 1300. DiscoSpock – August 18, 2013

If I understand MJ’s logic, and you support it. If something is gotten wrong then it’s out of here – to be ignored.

Well introducing the Gallup Poll under that is a fail as Gallup got it wrong in Dewey vs. Truman and Ford vs Carter.

Look, I agree Gallup’s methods are a darn sight better than the others you all want me to “trust” but if their methods were as full of peer-reviewed scientific rigor as you appear to contend, then why don’t we save the U.S. government a boatload of money in election expenses and hire them to call it like it is?

And I’ll repeat myself again: a good scientist stands behind his methods, data, and conclusions and doesn’t disclaim that it’s fit for use as one of the uses it better be fit for is SCIENCE.

All, I want is for science-fiction fans to be aware of, is what is science and what is not.

Now most of the contrary feedback seems to be coming from an engineering perspective (as in, not addressing the science of poll data gathering at all), which I have not been addressing, these polls may be to some extent useful engineering tools but we have to be very aware of how they don’t adhere to science if you want to know why your foundation is suddenly crumbling from under you as Dewey and Carter win.

1307. Disinvited - August 18, 2013

#1304. MJ (The Original). – August 18, 2013

“This incorrect assertion by you to me calls into question the validity of your entire argument here. You obviously didn’t taken the time to check on each User Ratings site to see what methodology exeplanations they provided — you just assumed you were correct, without bothering to even check first.” – MJ

I am confused. Are you now saying that my proving Bernie’s assertions about not only the source of the article but also startrek.com false due to his lack of due diligence are now NOT sufficient to call into question the validity of his entire argument?

1308. Ahmed - August 18, 2013

On a different topic, did anyone else felt that the soundtrack for STID was so lacking ? It was nowhere near the beautiful soundtrack of Star Trek 2009

Star Trek Soundtrack-Main Themes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r-ebS3QR3w

I hope for the next one, Michael Giacchino will come up with something as beautiful & engaging as ST09 soundtrack.

1309. crazydaystrom - August 18, 2013

How would everybody feel about Ron Howard directing the next movie? With collaborations with Tom Hanks in Apollo 13 and The DaVinci Code (and its sequel/prequel) he could perhaps lure Trekkie Hanks to the franchise.

Maybe even Jim Nabors! jk

1310. MJ (The Original). - August 18, 2013

@1308

Ron Howard is not a bad ideal at all. Hi sci-fi and space movies (Cocoon, Apollo 13) were more about people and people solving problems versus just hardcore action films.

I could go with Howard.

1311. MJ (The Original). - August 18, 2013

@1307. You’ve are joking, right?

Did you not hear, “London Calling”? That may be the single best track here has ever produced. Kids are doing it at Piano recitals everywhere now.

His score of STID was perhaps the best score of his career, with the possible exception of Up.

1312. MJ (The Original) - August 18, 2013

Disinvited,

You are being disengenous here by not responding in detail to the other side of this discussion — specfifically, Basement Blogger’s five-point analysis on the Creation Poll..

I’m not going to give you a “free-pass” here to only respond to what fits with your comfort level here. Several of us have been waiting now for some time here for you to provide the same level of critical commentary and points here on the Creatiion Poll that you have been providing on the movie site User Polls — and you can do this by providing us all a detailed response to Basement Blogger’s five points on that poll from post #1251.

Once you have done this, then I will respond to your latest post on the movie polls. But until then, I’m not inclined to reward you with further responses on the part of the discussion that you feel much more comfortable discussing. I know cherry-picking when I see it.

1313. Ahmed - August 18, 2013

@ 1310. MJ (The Original). – August 18, 2013

“@1307. You’ve are joking, right?

Did you not hear, “London Calling”? That may be the single best track here has ever produced. Kids are doing it at Piano recitals everywhere now.

His score of STID was perhaps the best score of his career, with the possible exception of Up.”

Nope, with the exception of “London Calling”, the rest of STID soundtrack was either boring or a repetition of ST09 theme.

There is no way that STID is his best score, ST09 was far better.

1314. MJ (The Original). - August 18, 2013

Wow!!!

We are going to have to agree to disagree then.

STID’s score is better than the already very good ST 2009 score.

And of course half of it is similar to first movie — who would expect him to abandon the primary themes???

1315. MJ (The Original). - August 18, 2013

Just checked Amazon — 4.5 Stars User Ratings for MG’s STID soundtrack to 4.0 Stars for this ST 2009 soundtrack.

1316. MJ (The Original). - August 18, 2013

From Movie Music Mania:

Needless to say, don’t read this unless you’ve seen the film or you don’t care about having twists ruined that will make your inner Trekkie giddy with nostalgic delight….

You won’t find another composer out there who is more frequently given the title of “the modern John Williams” than Michael Giacchino. Of course, John Williams is still the modern day John Williams, but there is certainly some validity to this accolade. Most of you, dear readers, familiar or not with the world of film music, were probably introduced to Giacchino without even knowing it, just as I was. His work on the Medal of Honor videogame series broke new ground for game scoring and gave us one of Playstation’s most haunting themes, something that I could recognize and hum long before I began paying attention to film music and knew anything about the men and women behind its composition. Since then, Giacchino has partnered with director/producer J.J. Abrams in a true Spielberg/Williams-esque partnership that has lasted the test of multiple televisions series (Alias, Lost) and numerous feature films (Mission Impossible III, Super 8). While Giacchino has had tremendous success outside of his partnership with Abrams, winning the Oscar for Up and providing a memorable score for the unmemorable John Carter, it is this partnership’s outings that fans of the composer most look forward to.

When 2009 came around and J.J. Abrams breathed new life into the Star Trek franchise, Giacchino was along for the ride, providing a fittingly brassy and energetic score with a memorable main theme for the series’ new direction. Naturally, this summer’s Star Trek Into Darkness (named like a true Giacchino track title) allowed the composer to build upon the foundation he created for the first film and compose an absolutely superb sequel score.

Opening with a noble, solo horn performance of the main theme per the 2009 film, the score soon dives off in a different direction for the Nibiru chase in “Logos/Pranking the Natives”. The chase music continues in “Spock Drops, Kirk Jumps” with brief nods to the main theme. These first two cues really set the pace for the rest of the album. Critics of Into Darkness most often noted the incredibly fast paced nature of the film in comparison to the first entry and Giacchino’s score is fittingly subject to that same comparison. We’re no longer learning for the first time who these characters are and thus reprisals of their themes are kept to a minimum here. However, when we are treated to reprisals, they are just that… an absolute treat. “Sub Prime Directive” is an example of this and is just about as Star Trek ’09 as you’re going to get on this album. Truly fantastic, this track solidifies the surfacing of the Enterprise as my favorite sequence in the film and sneaks in a much appreciated reference to Alexander Courage’s original theme at the same time. Luckily, Giacchino avoids reprising his own theme and its secondary phrases as frequently as he did in Star Trek, his restraint lending the theme an added punch whenever it breaks through (though we could have used some sort of variation when the Enterprise leaves earth to head for Qu’noS, bafflingly spelled “Kronos” in this entry).

After the film’s title, we change gears yet again with “London Calling”, a beautiful piano piece that calls to mind Clint Mansell’s work on Last Night and introduces one of Khan’s themes. The tracks also features some very light electronics previously absent from the 2009 film, an interesting change for Giacchino. “Meld-Merized” is a soberingly mournful piece that erupts into one of Khan’s themes at 1:50, this one foreboding, infectious, and with a distinct air of Twilight Zone. Like John Williams’ Jaws theme, this Khan theme and its variations suggest a lurking, calculating evil and provide a near perfect sense of building dread. This theme is wonderfully melded into a quieter, tenderer variation to make us feel for Trek’s greatest villain in “Brigadoom” just before Giacchino again lets rip with the menace.

Star Trek Into Darkness sees the return of many old faces, not only those of Dr. Carol Marcus and Khan Noonien Singh but also those of the warmongering Klingons. Their faces though are slightly different than when last we saw them and, fittingly, so is their theme. Heard in the lively standout cue “The Kronos Wartet” the identity for the Klingons is sinister and tribal, complete with a wildly unhinged chorus chanting Klingon obscenities. The Khan-in-action motif that begins later in the track at 4:05 builds to a powerful statement of another Khan theme, this one at once majestic and threatening. The word that comes to mind is “conqueror”. The former motif returns in “Ship to Ship” with a little added percussion amidst some good filler material for Kirk and Khan’s space jump to the USS Vengeance. “Earthbound and Down” is exciting but ultimately forgettable as far as having any real thematic material goes, a fault that is quickly redeemed in “Warp Core Values,” an exceptionally beautiful cue for Kirk’s sacrifice. The variations on the main theme, the build in the chorus towards the end, and the similarities to George Kirk’s sacrifice cue (“Labor of Love”) from the 2009 Star Trek all made this a chill-inducing few minutes in the theater. Really well done.

The kind of soft, tender orchestral writing that Michael Giacchino excelled at in Lost comes through in the next track, “Buying the Space Farm”, but even with our captain dead we aren’t given a moment to breathe. “The San Fran Hustle” offers some of the best chase material on the album (of which there is much), a motif at 1:57 lifted from the classic Trek episode “Amok Time”, and a final grand statement of the Khan theme for the villain’s last standoff. Following this is “Kirk Enterprises”, a nice kind of catharsis to all the frenetic action cues preceding it. As in “Warp Core Values”, Giacchino reprises the “Labor of Love” material in “Kirk Enterprises” but this time he is much more direct about it. By this approach he effectively communicates to the listener and viewer, “Yes indeed… we have come full circle.” After this satisfying reprisal, we get a bit of an adventure-on-the-horizon kind of motif at 1:46 that sounds like a nod to the James Horner Star Trek scores of old (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and Star Trek III: The Search for Spock) and then the iconic Alexander Courage motif underlying what every Trekkie looks forward to: “Space, the final frontier”. All in all, “Kirk Enterprises” is a great way to end Into Darkness’s new material.

With that, Giacchino reprises his main theme from Star Trek in the aptly-named “Star Trek Main Theme”. Not much is different here, with the exception of some altered percussion and the addition of a chorus. Not that I don’t love hearing Giacchino’s theme, but it would have been nice to forego this track and give us an end credits suite as was done for the 2009 score release. Hopefully, there is a deluxe edition on the horizon. The album ends with a song by Conway entitled “The Growl (Bonus Track)” that can be heard in the bar scene between Scotty and Keenser. It’s kind of catchy and I’m happy they’ve included it but I wonder if this is really what we’ll be listening to in the year 2259.

To sum up, Giacchino has accomplished a wonder with this score. Though the album is still woefully short (we could have used that “Ode to Harrison” cue that everyone was so in love with weeks before the film’s release) the orchestration and mixing is a step up from Star Trek, which suffered from an overly wet mix. If you listen to the score before seeing Into Darkness, you may deem it to be a bit rife with Giacchino action filler but upon seeing the film I can assure you that the themes will come out and you’ll realize that this an expertly constructed piece of work and a more than worthy sequel score.

1317. Ahmed - August 18, 2013

@MJ

“Wow!!!
We are going to have to agree to disagree then.”

lol yep.

1318. Basement Blogger - August 18, 2013

@ 1306

Disinvited,

Just because I made a mistake regarding major Star Trek sites not reporting the story, doesn’t refute my argument. The story that everyone is relying on was reported by Devin Faraci. He hates STID. The point being he claims that a hundred were in the room. Could there be less? Trusting someone who is biased is like asking Fox News to be fair to Obama. But if you want to trust him, fine. Here are other points.

Speaking of Fox News, the O’Reilly piece posted above from the Convention reports that twelve thousand attended it. That means a majority of one hundred hated STID so much that they rated it last. That’s not what I call a substantial amount of Trekkers.

At this forum where the poll was taken there is no report of numbers. So was the poll by applause? Since we don’t know how the poll was taken, how can you rush to the judgment that it’s a reflection of a large or majority of Trekkers at the convention.

The Star Trek parody “Galaxy Quest” was in the poll. It’s not a Star Trek movie. How can you take it seriously?

Let’s cut the nonsense, Disinvited. You hate STID so you’re throwing out this bad information about the poll to prove that it was hated by a majority of Trekkers.

The truth is this. The poll was taken in a forum at the convention. Can’t refute that Dis. Those that participated in the poll numbered one hundred or less. if you believe Faraci, fine. Use the number of one hudred. Can’t refute that Dis. So it was a majority of one hundred that hated STID. Can’t refute that Dis. That small number was out of approximately twelve thousand who attended the convention. You can use over one thousand if you wish. Can’t refute that Dis. There was no accounting of the number who hated STID in the room. Can’t refute that Dis. Those that took the poll, chose to take it. Can’t refute that Dis.

Conclusion. The Las Vegas Poll was taken by insignificant number of Trekkers who attended the convention compared to the total number of attendees. The poll was not convention wide as it was taken in a forum. Less than one hundred Trekkers who took the poll hated STID. No method of how the poll was taken is currently being reported.

One can only conclude that the poll shows some Trekkers hated STID. Big surprise. But the poll cannot be used to show that a large or majority of Trekkers hated STID. Disinvited, if you want to make that assertion, you’re going to have to get a poll done by Public Policy Polling or a group like that..

1319. DiscoSpock - August 18, 2013

#1312 “Disinvited, you are being disengenous here by not responding in detail to the other side of this discussion — specfifically, Basement Blogger’s five-point analysis on the Creation Poll. I’m not going to give you a “free-pass” here to only respond to what fits with your comfort level here. Several of us have been waiting now for some time here for you to provide the same level of critical commentary and points here on the Creatiion Poll that you have been providing on the movie site User Polls — and you can do this by providing us all a detailed response to Basement Blogger’s five points on that poll from post #1251.”

I agree completely. And now, Basement Blogger has provided further details in post #1318.

I’ll have no more correspondence with Disinvited hre on this topic until he finaly shows some nads and responds in detail to BB’s points on the extremely questionable Vegas poll.

1320. Ahmed - August 18, 2013

Fascinating
——————————–
Benedict Cumberbatch Has An Awesome Message For The Paparazzi

British actor Benedict Cumberbatch had a suggestion for the photographers camped outside the BBC Sherlock set Saturday in Cardiff, Wales. As he exited his trailer, Cumberbatch hid his face behind a hooded jacket and glasses and held up a sign reading,

“Go photograph Egypt and show the world something important.”

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ellievhall/benedict-cumberbatch-sherlock-egypt-paparazzi

1321. Marja - August 18, 2013

1287, BobOrci, Fear not, Bob. YOU ARE MADE OF STAR STUFF ! So say Carl Sagan and Neal DeGrasse Tyson, and two great astronomers can’t be wrong.

1297, CrazyDaystrom, Oh God HOW I AGREE!!! Been saying it since I saw ST2009.
The WOMEN’S MINIDRESS UNIFORMS NEED RANKS on them.

Epaulets … Pips … Bars … Anything but nothing! I mean, what’s that about, there are so few women that you can guess who they are? “Hi there, you must be Lt. Uhura!” “How did you know?” “Word gets around. You’re a fit foxy woman of African ancestry and you work on the Enterprise – you MUST be Lt. Uhura!” [rolling my eyes so hard]

Maybe long sleeves with stripes on as Ms Nichols wore, but I’d kinda hate for those magnificent guns of Ms Saldana’s to be hidden – for a slender lady she is very buff. As a dancer she’s been keeping supremely fit for decades and it shows.

1307 Ahmed, IMHO the STiD soundtrack beats the ST2009 soundtrack, because I like Khan’s theme much better than I liked Nero’s theme. As these wend their way thru both soundtracks, I am much better able to enjoy Khan’s theme of complications piling onto complications than I am Nero’s theme with its overtly dark operatic villain-ish tone, which simply underlined [to me] the basic problem in the storyline – Nero.

Heh – not that I’m crazy about the Khan plot element, as you’ve seen me say time and again, but he’s a more complex guy than Nero, and the music speaks to this.

1322. MJ (The Original). - August 18, 2013

@1319

Yea, except that in 50 years, the story in Egypt will probably not have changed much. Which is very sad.

1323. Basement Blogger - August 18, 2013

@ 1321

Difficult story about Egypt. Who do we side with? Morsi was democratically elected but he’s part of the Muslim Brotherhood. Let’s just put it this way. They’re not for freedom of religion and are not very friends of America. If we side with the military than we’ve just supported a coup. No easy answers.

1324. MJ (The Original). - August 18, 2013

@1322 Yea, that, plus Morsi seemed inept and unable to do anything. Like and Egyptian version of Jimmy Carter.

1325. Ahmed - August 18, 2013

@ 1322. Basement Blogger – August 18, 2013

“@ 1321

Difficult story about Egypt. Who do we side with? Morsi was democratically elected but he’s part of the Muslim Brotherhood. Let’s just put it this way. They’re not for freedom of religion and are not very friends of America. If we side with the military than we’ve just supported a coup. No easy answers.”

I lived in Egypt for 18 years & I can tell you that the it is dangerous to allow the Muslim Brotherhood any kind of power. Morsi was not one of the top leaders of the MB, he was chosen because he can follow orders of the MB High Command without any questions.

The Egyptian army is not pro democracy as well, but they are the lesser evils of the two. With the army, you can negotiate but the MB don’t.

The main problem that Mubarak in his 30 years of power, crushed the liberal opposition groups. They can’t agree on anything, let alone stand against the army or the MB, that why they failed in the last elections.

Check this article about the options that we have with the current situation in Egypt.

————————————————
It’s Time to Hold Our Nose and Back Egypt’s Military

“Let’s get real and tamp down the moral posturing about democracy in Egypt. Freely elected President Morsi and his now-deposed Muslim Brotherhood government weren’t practicing democracy. They were co-opting the laws and slowly destroying all possible opposition. Besides, they were aligning with America’s jihadist enemies in Syria, Gaza, and elsewhere.

Egypt’s military leaders, no democratic sweethearts either, are aligned with moderates, need Washington more than the Islamists, and back U.S. interests on the Suez Canal and Israel. Americans rightly can’t stand the military street slaughters. For sure, bloody casualties will mount. But the United States has some modest chance to influence the military in right directions. It has little or no chance of saving Egypt for democracy if the Islamists return to power.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/17/it-s-time-to-hold-our-nose-and-back-egypt-s-military.html

1326. MJ (The Original). - August 18, 2013

Awesome interview with James Cameron and how his artwork has defined his movies:

http://collider.com/avatar-artwork-james-cameron/

1327. MJ (The Original). - August 18, 2013

@1325

Ahmed,

I will take your word for it since you lived in Egypt and have been following this pretty closely. Thanks for the information!

1328. Basement Blogger - August 18, 2013

@ 1325

Ahmed, thanks for your insight. Not only do Democracies need elections but they need a constitution that supports individual rights.

1329. Ahmed - August 18, 2013

You are welcome guys, just my 2cents :)

MJ, great interview with Cameron. Can’t wait for the Avatar movies.

1330. crazydaystrom - August 18, 2013

@1310. MJ (The Original). -

“Ron Howard is not a bad ideal at all. Hi sci-fi and space movies (Cocoon, Apollo 13) were more about people and people solving problems versus just hardcore action films.”

Indeed!
I remember an interview with him years ago where someone asked him about returning to science fiction. He said he “had another science fiction film in him.” Sounded like he had a specific project in mind but he hasn’t done it yet. I think he would make a fine Trek director. Somebody should give ole Opie a call!

@1320. Marja -

“The WOMEN’S MINIDRESS UNIFORMS NEED RANKS on them.
Epaulets … Pips … Bars … Anything but nothing!”

The absence of ANY rank indicators at all on those unis doesn’t make any sense at all. Not one bit. An egregious omission and a real WTF!

1331. Phil - August 18, 2013

@1325. I’ve heard similar thoughts from a couple of different sources, and have no reason to dispute them. Thanks for sharing your insight.

1332. Dave H. - August 18, 2013

Wow,

It’s 2 days later, and Disinvited still has not addressed Basement Blogger’s points on the Vegas Con poll?

What’s up with that?

1333. Red Dead Ryan - August 18, 2013

Michael Giaccino is one of the top composers in Hollywood today. He’s done a lot of good music, especially for “Lost”, “John Carter”, “Ratatouille” and the latest “Star Trek” movies.

As for Egypt, I think its time the west stayed out of it. The military is killing its own citizens en masse, causing the rallying of the Muslim Brotherhood as well as other radical groups, including al-Queda. There simply is no good guy to support in that country, and the same could be said for the region as a whole.

But the thing is, tyrants like Bashar al-Assad in Syria are in a way de facto allies of the west, as they are attempting to crush Sunni Islamic fundamentalist groups aspiring for a Taliban-style theocracy in the middle east.

1334. Red Dead Ryan - August 18, 2013

Here is something I found on the Terry Farrell thread concerning the polling of the movies at the convention”

Gary Seven – August 18, 2013

“Re: the World Record – the moment was electric and Terry Ferrell’s appearance was a great capstone! Suspect we will be leap-frogging the record for some time to come – so plan to enjoy the next ride!

Re: The poll – which seems to be the primary topic of conversation – it wasn’t a poll. I applaud Jordan Hoffman and the StarTrek.com group for engaging those who were able to make their OneTrekMind sessions in spirited discussions, but the attendees could not hope to represent the fan universe and there were no ballots; no counts. Jordan and crew offered up Galaxy Quest and while it was supported by the Okuda’s it did not originate from the group. The “scoring” was based on a Gong-show type assessment of the audio response to Jordan’s placements. Accuracy was subject to where you were seated in the room. Seated in the room, there was clearly a group that hated STID. A clear majority – I’m not so sure. So, great fun – yes! Meaningful at a level that merits the preceding discussion – no.”

There you have it folks — eyewitness testimony from someone who was at not just the convention, but actually was in the same room the poll was conducted.

So now Disinvited can longer twist the facts — CASE CLOSED!!!

1335. Red Dead Ryan - August 18, 2013

Correction: So now Disinvited can NO longer twist the facts

1336. MJ (The Original - August 19, 2013

@1334

“The “scoring” was based on a Gong-show type assessment of the audio response to Jordan’s placements. Accuracy was subject to where you were seated in the room. Seated in the room, there was clearly a group that hated STID. A clear majority – I’m not so sure. So, great fun – yes! Meaningful at a level that merits the preceding discussion – no.”

WOW — that is “the poll” that Disinvited has been so vehemently defending the past few days. LOL

“ends with a wimper”

Ha Ha Ha

Embarrassing! :-))

1337. Disinvited - August 19, 2013

#1318. Basement Blogger – August 18, 2013 .

I understand your reasonable point about refutation.

The fact that I responded when MJ let loose with this:

“This incorrect assertion by you to me calls into question the validity of your entire argument here. You obviously didn’t taken the time to check on each User Ratings site to see what methodology explanations they provided — you just assumed you were correct, without bothering to even check first.” – MJ

should make that clear. However, MJ, himself, lowered the amount of effort required to question the validity of an entire argument in these parts with this statement and, at no reflection on you, as long as it goes unrepudiated I fail to see how any more effort is required on my part in this forum as clearly its standards of refutation have been more than met as I have proven more than one of your assertions made in stating your case false.

And for the record, you are wrong about another thing: I don’t hate STID.

1338. MJ (The Original). - August 19, 2013

@1336. Ah great, so your Vegas poll turns out to be a Gong Show facade poll, and you blame me for sidetracking your posts.

LOL Look who is grasping at straws now.

1339. Disinvited - August 19, 2013

#1334. Red Dead Ryan – August 18, 2013

What exactly are you saying? Polling by acclamation, i.e. voice vote, which is used by most of the deliberative bodies on the planet is as valid a method of gathering data to determine consensus as what online review polls do. And I’m the one arguing the the votes are being filtered and divided into Yeas or Nays with equal lack of scientific rigor.

1340. MJ (The Original). - August 19, 2013

And for the record, Disinvited lowered the level of discussion here by pating me as some kind of a faith-monger moron:

” you are only left with “faith” that they aren’t doing something nonsensical. And that you have more faith because you can find more people doing an unscientific thing just about gets you as far away from science that a fan of science as implied in “science-fiction fan” can manage…..What you are doing is no different than the Pope and the Cardinals saying we know the Sun orbiting the Earth is the right explanation because it agrees with what we all know to be true.”

I am not a faith-monger. I am an engineer with two Masters Degrees. So yes, I take exception to be portrayed like this just because I have a honest technical disagreement with someone.

1341. MJ (The Original). - August 19, 2013

@1338 “What exactly are you saying? Polling by acclamation, i.e. voice vote, which is used by most of the deliberative bodies on the planet is as valid a method of gathering data to determine consensus as what online review polls do. And I’m the one arguing the the votes are being filtered and divided into Yeas or Nays with equal lack of scientific rigor”

How are we suppose to know this, since you have been “apparently” deliberately avoiding any discussion of the Vegas Poll and Basement Bloggers analysis of it.

We can’t read your mind? Maybe don’t blow off half of the discussion, next time, OK? You certainly gave the impression to all of us that you only wanted to discuss the online reviews, and were giving the Vegas Poll a free pass. Come on, you can certainly see how it looked that way to us — go back and look at your posts.

1342. Garak's Pride - August 19, 2013

MJ,

So you weren’t the guy who was responsible for Galileo’s punishment during the Inquisition?

I was sure that Disinvited had told us that that was all your fault?

;-)

1343. Disinvited - August 19, 2013

#1339. MJ (The Original). – August 19, 2013

Wow, I am so glad you just came right out and said it, because while I had no intention of you ever feeling that I do not value your feedback or that I regard you in those terms, in rereading that, I have to agree that I should have done better than use that as an equivalent for “not science”.

And Bernie, thanks, I see you were trying to get my attention about it but I just didn’t see it at the time, thanks.

My apologies. I intend to learn from this and do better next time.

Given how charged emotions have become over this, it is probably best to just drop it.

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