“Star Trek has called me, and I’m going to serve” Bob Orci Talks Trek on Mission Log Podcast | TrekMovie.com
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“Star Trek has called me, and I’m going to serve” Bob Orci Talks Trek on Mission Log Podcast September 21, 2013

by Kayla Iacovino , Filed under: Celebrity,Orci/Kurtzman,Star Trek (2009 film),Star Trek Into Darkness,Web , trackback

In a very special Mission Log Podcast supplemental, Star Trek writer Bob Orci sat down to talk about what it was like coming into Trek for him, how he listens to fans’ feedback on his work, Trek’s place on TV, what’s next for Trek, and he even responds to recent events getting heated right here on the Trek Movie message boards. We get almost two full hours of Bob Orci talking about Star Trek, what he loves about it, and why he and co-workers wrote the last two movies the way they did. Read some of the highlights and listen for yourself after the jump.

Mission Log Podcast Supplemental 058A: Bob Orci

Listen to the full interview on the Mission Log Podcast

Coming up Trek
Mission Log Podcast hosts John Champion and Ken Ray both came into the work of Star Trek in their own ways — we all did, and it’s a part of what makes Trek special and unique to us. Bob Orci has been long known as the biggest Trekkie of any of the new guard responsible for Star Trek 2009 and Into Darkness, so what is his story? Orci was born in Mexico City and would frequently visit family in Florida. There, a man named Richard Robau (yes, the man for whom Captain Robau is named) would sit down with Bob to watch The Original Series.

“[Robau] made it plain to me at that point that it was the first time that legitimate sci-fi had been on television. That was sort of my entry into sci-fi. Then, when Wrath of Khan came out, that was the first movie I saw in the theater.”

What really spoke to Orci about Star Trek was, of course, the characters and the stories they told.

“The idea that smart people could be thinking their way through problems, I thought was interesting. No matter how smart you are and no matter how moral and how much you’re thinking, sometimes you must do battle. That was an interesting goalpost of the series for me. You can be a genius astrophysicist who cares about nothing more than to maintain the peace and yet you may still have to fire your phasers and your photon torpedoes.”

This, says Orci, is the rationale behind Starfleet being called a “peace-keeping armada” in Trek ’09.

Orci didn’t want to touch Trek… at first

“Are you kidding? I didn’t want to touch it. [When Paramount called us] and said, ‘Hey, do you want to do Star Trek?’ Yeah, we’re interested, but I don’t wanna come and screw it up. I don’t wanna mess with something that I love. Unless we have an idea, we’re not just going to say yes.”

Trek is on the Big Screen these days, but should Trek be on TV?
It’s a question we all have an opinion on (heck, it’s one we’ve talked a lot about lately here on TrekMovie). Star Trek started on television, and so did Bob Orci, who talked a bit about how the two mediums have changed over the years and how Trek fits into it all both then and now.

“When I saw Star Wars I remember thinking, ‘yeah Star Wars is amazing, but I can’t watch it at home. I can watch Star Trek at home. I remember thinking [about Trek], ‘wow, this is a whole universe,’ where as Star Wars seemed like a one-off.”

“A lot of action and not enough philosophy”
The fact of the matter is: Paramount is making Trek for the big screen. But, is this a good home for the franchise? Or should it be back on TV? Orci says both have a place in the Trek world, and so does “new” media like the web.

“I do think Star Trek is wonderful for TV. I think it should be both [TV and movies]. I saw a Next Generation movie, I won’t say which, but I though ‘Ahh, it’s slightly succumb to the trappings of movie making. A lot of action and not enough philosophy.’ It’s interesting to read that criticism of some of the stuff we’ve done in the last two [films]. TV affords you [philosophy]. But, I do think that audiences are sophisticated enough that Star Trek can be Star Trek in both mediums now.”

But, Trek WILL return to TV, says Orci

“Star Trek ain’t going anywhere. It’s going to outlive all of us. And it’s going to be translated into every kind of delivery system you can imagine. It’s not going away from TV either. It just depends on when it comes back and how it’s programmed against the movies.”

“I can’t get into the new Star Trek ‘cuz it’s not really my character”

“We didn’t say yes [to writing Star Trek 2009] until we hit upon the notion, what if Spock as portrayed by Leonard Nimoy is someway indirectly responsible for coming back in time and changing the universe and making it an alternate universe. The question becomes are these peoples’ souls the same? I remember reading, “Well, I can’t get into the new Star Trek ‘cuz it’s not really my character. It’s not the same people”. That’s actually the debate of the movie: are they the same soul? [The characters] have to earn your love anew. . . These characters must stand on their own.”

TWOK: The Wrath of Kirk… “Khan was in our minds”.

We talked about having a coda at the end of the first movie of Star Trek finding the Botany Bay. So Khan was in our minds. Now, [2009] comes out and there is a big push to do Khan. We collectively stepped back from that because we felt like we were falling into the trap of using a villain based on previous knowledge of the villain, and that we were somehow relying on the audience’s expectation of love and hate of Khan to make that story work. So, we stepped back and said, ‘lets say it’s not Khan’.

But, after writing the story about this man, John Harrison, they came back to Khan.

“After we had that story, well, now can it be Khan? We started at Khan, went away from Khan, and then came back to him.”

“Sorry, that’s what Star Wars is for.”
A golden moment comes about a third of the way into the podcast during a great discussion about Star Trek being intellectual in a way that makes it better than your typical “popcorn movie”.

“I think some people are put off and confused by something that is so topical. On the message boards where, obviously, you get a lot of detractors that may or may not represent huge percentages — but, non-the-less they’re fans and they need to be heard — [They say], ‘I don’t wanna have to face those things when I’m eating popcorn in the theater.’ And, though they meant that as a criticism, I actually still take that as a compliment. It means that they sat through a popcorn movie that shook them up a little bit. That’s hard to do! It’s only because of the legacy and power of Star Trek that we were able to actually have this meditation on current events.

Look, I get it. You definitely go to the movies to escape, but you can escape and still think. The movie can be entertaining and still have something to say.”

At this point, Rod Roddenberry, who had apparently been listening in from the back of the room, decided to pipe up.

“Sorry, that’s what Star Wars is for.”

On listening to fans for STID
MLP co-host John Champion brought up the point that Orci and crew actually have listened to fans’ criticisms on the 2009 film and incorporated those criticisms by changing things in Into Darkness. Orci listed off a few of the specific things that changed because fans were vocal.

  1. We addressed Kirk’s quick ascension [to captain]. . . that’s why he’s demoted.
  2. We addressed the brewery [engineering]. We went to San Francisco and got a proper warp core.
  3. We attempted to try and grow the trifecta [Kirk, Spock, and Bones] by having Bones in there.
  4. We tried to make Scotty less humorous, gave him meat to chew on. He resigns over the Enterprise’s mission not being about exploration.

So, John’s follow up question is of course: what criticisms of Star Trek Into Darkness will Bob Orci and co. take into account for the next one?

“I am hoping that these movies have earned us a degree to go a little more sci-fi. In the first two movies, Paramount has been great in just trusting us in what we were going to do. You can’t blame the evil studio for whatever you hate. You have to blame us. My hope is that these movies have earned us the right to show another side of Star Trek that we have not fully shown yet. A genuine sci-fi mystery; that would be nice.

The third one — and this is based slightly on fan response — the third one should just be unpredictable with as many new elements as possible.”

Sexism in Star Trek? What about the Alice Eve underwear scene?
Ken Ray asks one of the tough questions while he has the chance. How does Bob Orci feel about that infamous scene that has really split fans down the middle?

“Breaking news, you heard it here first. That was not Damon [Lindelof]‘s idea. It was JJ’s. Originally, they were going to open that torpedo in orbit, in space. So, originally, we had Kirk chasing her into a room where she was changing into a space suit. It seemed more purposeful when we actually conceived it. For production reasons, we just simply couldn’t afford to go out into space, so it turned into the desert floor. And, that scene, though when she is on the desert floor she is in a different outfit, you could argue that she didn’t need to be in a different outfit when she’s on the desert floor. So, it’s a slight holdover from the original conception of “everyone’s changing into a spacesuit”, which of course made a lot more sense.

I can’t claim to be an expert on feminism and gender politics at this moment. I could point out that you see Kirk half naked as well in both movies. He’s in his underwear, so’s Uhura. Did the movie need that scene? No. Have half the websites I’ve seen criticizing that scene used that exact photograph to publicize their own article about the scene? Yes.

I’m actually torn about it. I don’t know. You can’t watch Miley Cyrus on the VMA’s and not be confused about the state of feminism today.”

MLP Co-hosts Ken and John continue to play off of each other as well as always by offering up two very civil yet directly opposing viewpoints on the scene. At this point, the interview gets real. The interviewers take Orci’s response to the underwear question as a way to ask him about all of the other bits and pieces that they may not have liked about the film: Kirk’s death scene, the Khan scream. . . The whole discussion starts just after the 1 hour mark. Don’t miss it.

Keep up with Mission Log Podcast
If you aren’t already an avid listener of the Mission Log Podcast (a Roddenberry podcast), start listening. The series examines Star Trek — it’s messages, how those messages played when the show aired, and how they play today — one episode at a time. They started with The Cage and are working their way through The Original Series. Plus, every one in a while, they have great supplemental episodes like this one. Check ‘em out and subscribe.


Be sure to check out the Mission Log Podcast


Comments

1. CoolPT - September 21, 2013

Just keep it real Bob!

2. dswynne1 - September 21, 2013

Just do what the actor Karl Urban wants: an original story that is in keeping with the philosophies and pathos that made “Star Trek” a household name.

3. OneBuckFilms - September 21, 2013

This was very interesting.

Many of these insights have been heard/read elsewhere online.

4. Nomad - September 21, 2013

“That’s what Star Wars is for” – right on the button, Rod!

5. K-7 - September 21, 2013

Thank god Ahmed wasn’t able to call into the podcast!

(I’m kidding!)

6. K-7 - September 21, 2013

““I am hoping that these movies have earned us a degree to go a little more sci-fi.”

SEE EVERYONE !!!!!

7. OneBuckFilms - September 21, 2013

+1 dswynne1.

I think the genuine sci-fi mystery is a good approach, and something I crave.

Lets really see and experience some “strange new worlds”, “new life” and “new civilizations”.

You could have a fast-paced, planet-hopping mystery, with the Enterprise going to a region nobody has seen, and unwittingly getting involved in something epic.

8. K-7 - September 21, 2013

“The third one — and this is based slightly on fan response — the third one should just be unpredictable with as many new elements as possible.”

YEP! SOUNDS LIKE HE’S PRETTY MUCH FOLLOWING MJ’S 6 “TWEAKING” RECOMMENDATIONS.

The haters should be ashamed of themselves. Should have just been polite to the guy and given him a chance to improve movie #3. He’d still be here if they hadn’t been such jerkweed asses to him and embarrassed him publicly.

9. PaulB - September 21, 2013

“This, says Orci, is the rationale behind Starfleet being called a “peace-keeping armada” in Trek ’09.”

Wrong. In ST09, they called the FEDERATION a “peace-keeping armada.” That’s what pissed off fans–not the idea of calling Starfleet an armada, but the idiocy of calling the Federation an armada.

It’s like saying “the aft nacelle” in STID. It’s careless, sloppy writing that could have been corrected easily.

Thanks for the article!

10. Marcus - September 21, 2013

8. K-7,
MJ was not the only one who made that suggestion.

11. K-7 - September 21, 2013

@9. The you go, again, PaulB. Orci is listening to the fans and making some changes based on what has been put forward on this site, and all you offer is another one of you continual “bitching moments.”

And you complaining about the nacelle thing says it all to me.

Very sad!

12. Smoking Robot - September 21, 2013

Unfortunately these tent pole action movies are usually just a series of gags and special effect shots strung together with barely there dialogue and story.

STID was a very, very bad movie.

I can’t imagine anyone couldn’t make a movie that was twice as good for half the money.

But they would have to care about story and character and not just stunts and special effects.

STTWOK was ten times better than STTMP, and for a fraction of the cost.

There needs to be some major house cleaning here. J.J. and the rest should be shoved out the nearest airlock without an environment suit.

13. K-7 - September 21, 2013

@10

He’s talking multiple points, including the way women were portrayed, going more scifi, strange new worlds type of star Trek, more story and less action — these are nearly item for item the tweaks that MJ provided in that list.

Yes, many people have brought these all up, but MJ’s list was by far the best collection of this information in one place. And MJ was positive and offering these as “tweaks” — he never was one of those a-holes here who attacked and ridiculed Bob Orci.

14. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 21, 2013

Okay, well this seems a bit long for me. Can someone who listens please say if they address the issue of Uhura and Spock/Uhura and what was said please? Thanks in advance if you do.

15. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 21, 2013

@#10 Marcus

Very true. All he did was collect suggestions made by other people a few times over and compiled them into one list. I’m not knocking that in the least, but I didn’t see anything there that I hadn’t read at least 2 or 3 times before from other people…

Anyway, my biggest issue (obviously) is how they handle Uhura, Spock, and Spock/Uhura. Then of course I am concerned about the team…

16. Joe - September 21, 2013

I may not be the biggest fan of Into Darkness out there though it wasn’t a bad movie either but I do have a lot of respect for Orci and Kurtzman. That respect was certainly renewed by the comment of not blaming the evil studio but blaming them instead.

17. K-7 - September 21, 2013

Well, it’s good that somebody cared enough to synthesize all of this stuff into one list, and do it in a positive way for Orci to use.

Heck, some people here can’t even take the time to listen to a podcast by Bob Orci.

18. Garak's Pride - September 21, 2013

PaulB,

After reading your post, I am embarrassed to be a Star Trek fan today.

19. K.e. Russell - September 21, 2013

I think a good choice going forward on Trek with Orci and Kurtzman maybe moving on is David Kemper – the showrunner from “Farscape” and Lily Taylor, another key collaborator from the show. They’d bring not only the requisite drama, action, emotion, intellect, great dialogue – things actors love, They’d also bring in sex appeal (while maintaining good taste), something the ORIGINAL SERIES had but has faded. Farscape had really great femme fatales and that’s something Star Trek needs. I also think Adam E. Fiero from “24″ could be a great Star Trek writer.

20. Mad Mann - September 21, 2013

17. I listened to it more than once. And I probably will again. This is the Orci that respects Star Trek.

I’m telling you, they are going to hit the next one out of the park. With no Lindelof and w/o Abrams directing, the stupid jokes will decrease and it will feel more like a real science-fiction movie. Orci is going full sci-fi. He his going to develop Bones more into the Spock-Kirk-McCoy that we know from TOS. And I hope they will NOT force a character into it so awkwardly like they did with Khan.

Maybe it will be a race against time to save the entire universe and the big E explore new areas of space and existence. It will be due to over-use of Red Matter from the 2009 movie (to book-end trilogy). The Klingons will be in the way and the crew is forced to work with them. The famous Id-Ego-Super Ego of the triumvirate will be at the moral center of the movie. THAT will be the main theme.

This could be the best Trek movie of all time. Here’s hoping….

21. Thorny - September 21, 2013

12… TWOK cost 1/10th as much only because Paramount charged to TMP all the costs of the abandoned Star Trek: Phase II television series, and TWOK reused all the expensive sets and props from the first movie, keeping its costs low. If TWOK had been made in a vacuum with no TMP preceeding it, it too would have cost a fortune.

22. K.e. Russell - September 21, 2013

Oh, BTW , Deborah Ann Woll (True Blood) – Yeoman Janice Rand. I’m just sayin’.

23. steve - September 21, 2013

I’ve said it on these boards before: listening to hardcore Trek fans was the downfall for STiD. How many comments did we all read for years, where fans wanted the next movie to feature Khan, Gary Seven, Gary Mitchell, the Borg, Klingons, Romulans, etc etc etc…

The goal of ST09 was to take Trek mainstream. Brilliant movie, best Trek movie ever, in my opinion. Trek finally won mainstream appeal. Mission accomplished.

But STiD catered to the rerun wishes of the hardcore Trek fans, and the result was just an OK movie. But I believe that boborci has now finally figured that out, and I’m expecting the next film to be the best yet.

24. K.e. Russell - September 21, 2013

BTW, I LOVED “INTO DARKNESS” and don’t get all the negativism and why would anyone want DAMON LINDELOF to leave. I want him to take over Star Trek. Do you know his resume? I just don’t get it.

25. Buzz Cagney - September 21, 2013

Thats an interesting read and will listen to the audio later.
Now, I have a confession to make. From really not liking Into Darkness on release, and quite vehemently so, I got it on DVD and, after several viewings, i’m quite staggered to find i’ve become rather fond of it!
I’m quite pleased about that because there has obviously been so much love put into it and so much attention to detail it seems almost churlish to disregard all of that because of a slightly messed up story. Now I see that they went back and forth on the Khan thing I can see why it is so.
Next time Bob get that story nailed down and put all the fun character stuff and humour around it.

26. Marcus - September 21, 2013

“We addressed Kirk’s quick ascension [to captain]. . . that’s why he’s demoted.” ~ Orci
——————————

Fastest demotion, promotion, demotion is the history of the franchise.

…but, I get it though. If this was a story for a television series, I think the situation would have been fleshed out for a few episodes. hehehe…

——————————
“We addressed the brewery [engineering]. We went to San Francisco and got a proper warp core.” ~ Orci
——————————

I think it would be neat to see the warp core evolve into the one from “Star Trek: The Motion Picture”.

——————————
We attempted to try and grow the trifecta [Kirk, Spock, and Bones] by having Bones in there.” ~ Orci
——————————

I just hope the Kirk, Spock, and Bones dynamic takes over the foreground.

27. THX-1138 - September 21, 2013

K-7

Look, I’m nobody’s mother, and I’m not trying to be, really, but I ask respectfully if you could please quit with the “jerkweed asses” stuff. It just doesn’t do anything to move the discussion forward and only serves to flame the conversation and steer it into insult territory.

I don’t consider you a bad person or anything, I just think you could perhaps choose your words better. I understand that you feel strongly about your position and want to support your arguments but I don’t think people can “hear” what you’re “saying” past your vitriolic statements.

Anyway, I do look forward to what BR does with the third movie. I hope it’s not a Klingon War plot or that it follows any previous plot seen in TOS or the movies. As a matter of fact I think it would be cool to have the crew come across a new life-form that is so alien that it shakes up the way we view ourselves and what it means to be “human”. Devil in the Dark style. Shake up our perception of good and bad.

Oops, just don’t “do” Devil in the Dark, seeing how I just asked for the next film to not be derived from an old plot.

28. pg - September 21, 2013

I got a feeling Into Darkness will be looked at as the Quantum of Solace of the new Trek Trilogy: You either loved it or hated it… Something tells me the 3rd will be the Skyfall of the bunch… a little less frenetic action, more story… And yes, that means Star Trek (09) was more akin to the reception Casino Royale received, after Bond had been away for 4 years at that point, most people really enjoyed it.

29. Marcus - September 21, 2013

“I think some people are put off and confused by something that is so topical. On the message boards where, obviously, you get a lot of detractors that may or may not represent huge percentages — but, non-the-less they’re fans and they need to be heard — [They say], ‘I don’t wanna have to face those things when I’m eating popcorn in the theater.’ And, though they meant that as a criticism, I actually still take that as a compliment. It means that they sat through a popcorn movie that shook them up a little bit. That’s hard to do! It’s only because of the legacy and power of Star Trek that we were able to actually have this meditation on current events.

Look, I get it. You definitely go to the movies to escape, but you can escape and still think. The movie can be entertaining and still have something to say.” ~ Orci

——————————————-

Story tempo of “Star Trek: into Darkness” was too fast to notice.

During the first 45 minutes of the film, the action and drama sequences were firing off too rapidly. Even though there were dramatic pauses, the speed of the movie made them feel like action sequences. Everyone around me thought the film was made for someone with ADHD.

If Orci can slow the tempo down a little, I think people could be able to distinguish and appreciate the substance.

30. Yanks - September 21, 2013

The only thing I really “hated” was the death scene.

31. K-7 - September 21, 2013

@24

You are correct, THX. Yes, I will cool things down and refrain from that language, I just could not believe that PaulB would use this great moment, where Orci showed he is listening to us in regards to the next movie, to get it another one of his petty “bitch sessions”, and this time, about “Nacelles,” for Christ’s sake. That guy’s mean-spirited comment really set me off.

32. Curious Cadet - September 21, 2013

@ Boborci interview,
“non-the-less they’re fans and they need to be heard — [They say], ‘I don’t wanna have to face those things when I’m eating popcorn in the theater.”

What “fans” say this? Not Star Trek fans, surely. And I haven’t really read this criticism anywhere — well I guess the focus group results the studio did of the International audiences. Then again I’m not in the habit of reading user comments on pop-review sites like RT. But seriously, who doesn’t want to watch something meaningful if it can be presented in an entertaining way? STID was hardly a documentary.

I don’t know … if that’s the feedback they’re getting from the new audiences attracted to Star Trek (the ones responsible for the record breaking box office), enough so that Orci feels he has to comment on it, I don’t know how the studio is ever going to let them have a free hand in the third movie.

It’s odd … Orci says they are responsible for everything in the movie, and Paramount had absolutely nothing to do with anything in it. Yet he goes on to say they’ve hopefully earned the right from the studio to do a real scifi movie. At best this is contradiction — so, they just second guessed correctly what the studio wanted, despite wanting to make a much more interesting film? It seems to me then that the studio obviously had a hand in their decisions even if they didn’t have to directly ask, or otherwise get involved.

33. Ahmed - September 21, 2013

“I am hoping that these movies have earned us a degree to go a little more sci-fi. …A genuine sci-fi mystery; that would be nice.”

I love that. It is very encouraging that Bob is thinking of making a real sci-fi movie. It is the 3rd movie, so they can take risk this time around. They can keep the action scenes & all that but add sci-fi elements to the mix.

34. Ahmed - September 21, 2013

@5. K-7 – September 21, 2013

“Thank god Ahmed wasn’t able to call into the podcast!
(I’m kidding!)”

lol

35. K-7 - September 21, 2013

“What “fans” say this?”

Most movie fans say just that. Why do you think tentpole action “popcorn” movies make the lions share of movie revenue?

Are you living under a rock or something? :-)

36. K-7 - September 21, 2013

@31. Ahmed, thanks for the humorous reaction to my jest.

No hard feelings, guy, OK?

37. Ahmed - September 21, 2013

@ 33. K-7 – September 21, 2013

“@31. Ahmed, thanks for the humorous reaction to my jest.

No hard feelings, guy, OK?”

K-7,

Absolutely.

38. Keachick - September 21, 2013

#19 – “Maybe it will be a race against time to save the entire universe and the big E explore new areas of space and existence. It will be due to over-use of Red Matter from the 2009 movie (to book-end trilogy). The Klingons will be in the way and the crew is forced to work with them. The famous Id-Ego-Super Ego of the triumvirate will be at the moral center of the movie. THAT will be the main theme.”

There you go. People scream that they want Star Trek exploring “strange new worlds and new civilizations” and yet the only suggestion here is what would make the third movie anything but original, in the way that so many people say they want and indeed demand.

Bob Orci – “…A genuine sci-fi mystery; that would be nice.
The third one — and this is based slightly on fan response — the third one should just be unpredictable with as many new elements as possible.”

I don’t envy these two writers one bit…the problem is that even when they have introduced a new kind of technology and substance (of alien origin) like Red Matter, they get dumped on big time by so many. They can’t have this alternate universe Enterprise capable of being underwater and leaving the ocean to rise up, take flight into space without being people getting angry about how “unrealistic”, “unscientific”, such a scene is…

These two examples are original ideas, specific to this version of Star Trek. They are as legitimate and as *scientific* as anything else used in a Star Trek universe of the future.

I guess the humour that someone criticized here was too subtle for them. If the humour we heard in STID was due to Damon Lindelof’s influence, then I am sorry to see him go. However, I am confident that not all of it was his and I am sure that Orci/Kurtzman will be able to share a few genuine nuggets of humour via our characters in the next movie.

The characters in STID were serious most of the time because they had reason to be. I would not want to see a less humourous third movie. That would indeed make Star Trek dark and totally unrecognizable. TOS was also television’s first dramedy.

39. DS9 IN PRIME TIME - September 21, 2013

@boborci

Bob, you and the fereration council have done a wonderful job with ST, however i think a movie with originality will suit ST better like ST09. I have high hopes that you and the powers that be will write something not just great but spectacular. There are alot of places to go in space… PLEASE PLEASE BE ORIGINAL!!!!

40. Marcus - September 21, 2013

34. Keachick
“…the problem is that even when they have introduced a new kind of technology and substance (of alien origin) like Red Matter, they get dumped on big time…”

—————————–

If a little tiny drop opened up a planet sized black hole, the entire vile of red matter should have created a solar system sized black hole. Its has to do with the volume of the red matter used. Even though the concept is a neat science-fiction device, the problem resides with its overall execution.

When the red matter canister ruptured, at the end of “Star Trek ’09″, the size of the black hole should have been enough to devour everything. Earth, Enterprise, Moon, Mars, etc…

It all about the execution.

41. Baby - September 21, 2013

Poor Orci.

I very well liked STiD but I loved ST09.

I do not think Orci is deserving of all the hate. STiD was still a very good film. It must break his heart that a loud group of small fans will rate it as the worst trek .That is just NOT TRUE.

I hope Orci knows that those people represent less than 5% of all Trek fans.

I hope Orci will find solace in STiD’s reception from RT, Metacritic and even IMDB.

RT = 87/100

Metacritic = 72/100

IMDB = 8/10

I feel so sad and sorry for him.

Having to defend his work when it is far for mediocre.

Trek 09 was excellent and magnificent.

Trek 2013 is a very good and a solid film.

42. Colin - September 21, 2013

WhatCulture had an article on how Chris Pine successfully portrayed James Kirk. Here is the article:

http://whatculture.com/film/star-trek-how-chris-pine-made-us-believe-hes-kirk.php

43. Unbel1ever - September 21, 2013

That interview really made me appreciate Bob a lot more and I really hope they get to do a SciFi story in the next one. I’m really fed up with big black ships. From what I heard in this interview Bob understands that. He also now understands that taken too much from the past is bad. I mean, I like subtle references – inside jokes if you will. The NX-01 in the office, Praxis, Section 31 worked for me and were great references. However, as a Trek fan, I don’t want to be able to predict the plot – no matter how much inside knowledge I have. I watched STID with a friend who knows Star Trek, but is not necessarily the die-hard fan I am. When we left, he said: “I wish they had left Kirk dead. That would have been brave and opened up new possibilities.” What is also interesting that apparently quite a few of the things I hate about the new movies are actually choices made by JJ. Maybe him being off to Star Wars is a blessing in disguise.

44. Ahmed - September 21, 2013

@ 33. K-7 – September 21, 2013

“@31. Ahmed, thanks for the humorous reaction to my jest.

No hard feelings, guy, OK?”

Yep.
I posted a previous comment but I think it is still in the moderation limbo !

45. John from Cincinnati - September 21, 2013

Meh, I still say the Talosians should have something to do with the alternate universe. It makes sense by not making sense. Their illusions can confuse anyone into thinking anything. With the 50th anniversary coming up, it’d be nice to see the franchise come full circle.

46. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - September 21, 2013

This post by Paul B is just shameful. Bob Orci provides a positive message about how he had and is listening to the fans here as he preps Trek 2016, and PaulB continues his rabid “bitchathon” ways, while not even acknowledging one positive thing in Bob’s post here, when there are many positives to focus on for those who have been critical of STID…as many honorable detractors of STID like Ahmed have pointed out here today.

And to bring up the lame “Starfleet” versus “Federation” line from the first movie…come on, PaulB, 99% of us here (excluding you obviously) know that in Trek 2009 they were not able to make changes to the screenplay at all due to the Writer’s Strike. That is documented, and they had to shoot with a screenplay that could not be fine-tuned, or they would have likely changed that line. So that is unfair, as 99% of us here realized years ago, and which was discussed here numerous times. So pay attention next time to the history of these productions please, before you go off half-cocked with non-applicable crap like this.

And you second point, the “Nacelles orientation” mistake. Really, PaulB? Really? LOL. That’s the only other thing that you could come up today in response to Bob Orci’s 1.5 hour interview? That’s all you got? I mean, give me a fracking break — are you trying to get a cover story here for yourself on “Nacelle’s Monthly?” LOL

I think I speak for a lot of us here in that I am really getting tired of PaulB’s negative nitpicking here. I mean, fine, in light of this article, go ahead and bring up some of the major issues, but a “Nacelle orientation” screenplay error???

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
9. PaulB – September 21, 2013
“This, says Orci, is the rationale behind Starfleet being called a “peace-keeping armada” in Trek ’09.”

Wrong. In ST09, they called the FEDERATION a “peace-keeping armada.” That’s what pissed off fans–not the idea of calling Starfleet an armada, but the idiocy of calling the Federation an armada.

It’s like saying “the aft nacelle” in STID. It’s careless, sloppy writing that could have been corrected easily.

47. Keachick - September 21, 2013

Marcus – This is a common complaint made about Red Matter. People with a background in chemistry have actually given a plausible explanation as to why this matter is held in such large volume on another site – Star Trek (2009) IMDb message board. This occurred some time back, not long after the release of this movie.

Their explanation is that it is more stable when contained in large volume and becomes unstable, especially in the presence of very high heat in small amounts.

“When the red matter canister ruptured, at the end of “Star Trek ’09″, the size of the black hole should have been enough to devour everything. Earth, Enterprise, Moon, Mars, etc…”

Not true. No matter how much red matter there might be, the only thing it would and did devour was the Narada and whatever was contained within that ship. Once again, this has something to do with the understanding of a type of chemistry and of the nature of black holes.

I am not a chemist or astrophysicist or whatever, so I cannot eloquently explain it, however reasonable explanations can be found for the whys and hows of this alien substance called Red Matter.

48. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - September 21, 2013

@42. Keachick I agree with you. A black hole is made of matter. If Red Matter is a catalyst that converts ordinary matter to super-dense black hole-like matter, then the size of the black hole will be dependent on BOTH the amount of Red Matter you are using AND the amount of normal matter available in the immediate vicinity which can be converted to super-dense black hole matter.

So in the Vulcan scene, the amount of Red Matter injected was the limiting factor, while in the Narada scene, the amount of ordinary matter in the immediate vicinity was the limiting factor.

49. MJB - September 21, 2013

Well done, Kayla! Thanks for putting this article together…I haven’t had time to listen to it so it was nice to get the highlights.
Bob Orci: Make it so!!!!

50. Barney - September 21, 2013

@

5. K-7 – September 21, 2013
Thank god Ahmed wasn’t able to call into the podcast!

(I’m kidding!)
========================================================

HA…I KNEW IT.

Ahmed is the one that attacked Orci. He is just denying it. I was reading the article on Entertainment Weekly on why people are mad at STID and some people called out Ahmed for harassing Orci on trekmovie.

I comforted Ahmed about it a few days ago but he denied it.

I hope Orci comes back here. I miss him.

51. Marcus - September 21, 2013

If the background story holds true, elements established in “Star Trek: Into Darkness”, the next movie will be a Klingon revenge story. As a result of Khan and crew killing Klingons, the main driving point of the next movie will be ‘revenge’.

So, we will be stuck in the revenge story cycle.

52. PaulB - September 21, 2013

11. K-7, Lay off me. I posted a correction to the article’s incorrect statement. I pointed out two easily fixed errors in the films. I didn’t attack the writers, I didn’t attack the fans, I didn’t sneer at the films, and I didn’t insult anyone.

My post was accurate: ST09 called the Federation an armada, and STID mentioned an “aft nacelle.”

That hardly qualifies as “bitching,” nor did it deserve YOUR attack on ME for posting it.

#18 Garak’s Pride – Why did my factual, non-attacking, non-hateful comment upset YOU? Since signing your peace treaty in that other thread, I have abided by it’s terms, including what I posted here.

Also, unlike most of you people, *I* said “thanks” for the posting of this article.

So, I got attacked for being accurate, nonhateful toward anyone, and grateful to the Trekmovie editors.

Gee…that makes a lot of sense, especially coming from the “peace treaty” guy, Garak!

53. Disinvited - September 21, 2013

29. Curious Cadet – September 21, 2013

Maybe JJ did a good job of insulating the writers/producers from the studio. One thing is more than apparent: JJ started filming STID absolutely opposed to 3-D, and it is beyond credulity to convince ourselves that he suddenly woke up after the final film reel was shot and said “I could have had 3-D!” It is more than clear in the news reporting that the studio lobbied this heavily. Because of the original 3-D thumbs dumb production start, this “afterthought” couldn’t have been realized in the most cost effective well planned manner, it had to cost. We will likely never be privy to the info but it would be interesting to see where Paramount “robbed Peter to pay Paul” (Domestic marketing?) in realizing that Paramount 3-D marketing “vision”.

54. Red Shirt Diaries - September 21, 2013

PaulB,

Given the content of this podcast, and Orci’s positive statements about listening to the fans for the next movie, and his genuine tone of thoughtfulness here towards the fan, I agree with the people here that have said that your post definitely comes across as “more nitipicking/bitching” to me as well.

In the context of this great podcast, your post comes across as petty and small-minded.

That is just my opinion, and I am sure that you did not intend your post to come across that way. Maybe think more about the context of the topic next time before you throw out more rather minor grumpy complaints at Bob Orci.

55. Orcigate - September 21, 2013

Oh, come on. Again the Orcigate? Orci is not the most important thing in Star Trek, you know ? Star Trek is broken because since 2006 , it seems, the most important thing in ST is not ST, but Orci, Abrams, or Lindeloff. Names and not ideas. ST deserves true fans, not acolytes of producers, writers or directors. I’m sick of gurús and i’m sick of their acolytes. I love star trek because ST is ST, not Abrams’ trek o Berman’s trek, but Star trek. Acolytes defend their gurús. True trekkers defend ST, love ST and if a trek film is not good, they say it. It is not a tragedy. And if trek staff people insult fans or insulted the author of a legitimate article, true trekkers say:« you can insult, ST does not deserve this intolerance». But if a principal Star Trek writer insult and some people applaud, what of kind of trekkers are they?
There are a lot of news about st every week: novels, comics, merchandasing…Orci is not the only stuff or the most important news in ST, you know?

56. Cygnus-X1 - September 21, 2013

“Star Trek” has called him? Give me a break.

AS IF the franchise needs Bob Orci’s special brand of bad writing to carry on. What an arrogant thing to say. Star Trek needs me. Duty calls. Oh, blow it out your shorts. Seriously.

Though I suppose it is in keeping with other of his comments, “That’s why I get to write movies and you don’t” and so forth. See, Star Trek has called him, not you. Just let the guy whom Star Trek has called make the Star Trek.

I can’t even be bothered listening to what this guy has to say any more. Two hours of him blabbering ain’t gonna fix the problems in his scripts. I kept an open mind after the first movie and gave him a second chance, and he just went and repeated most of the same problems that the Trek’09 script had, and then added insult to injury by shamelessly ripping off TWOK. You’d be hard pressed to find a serious film analyst who’s had anything complimentary to say about the writing in STID; the ones who recommended the movie did so in spite of the writing. And now that writer is out doing self-promotion and talking about why he’s so well suited to be a Star Trek writer. What he should be doing is shutting up, locking himself away for a year and taking courses in fiction writing.

57. Cygnus-X1 - September 21, 2013

P.S.

But I’d settle for him just shutting up.

58. Smike - September 21, 2013

“that is the rationale behind Starfleet being called a “peace-keeping armada” in Trek ’09.”

Nope, they called the FEDERATION a “peace-keeping armada”, not Starfleet, which didn’t make sense at all. But I liked ST09 too much to complain about little quibbles like that. In retrospect, having seen STID and all its incoherence, I’m much more critical towards ST09.

“Ahh, it’s slightly succumb to the trappings of movie making. A lot of action and not enough philosophy.’ It’s interesting to read that criticism of some of the stuff we’ve done in the last two [films].”

He must have seen NEM. This was the only Next Gen movie that was all-out action. But even that turd had the “nature vs. nurture” debate. The dialogues between Shinzon and Picard were excellent.

ST09 and STID on the other hand do not even pretend to be cerebral anymore. This “roller-coaster ride” has worked excellently for ST09 because it started a new timeline with a BIG BANG. But STID should have been deeper, more thoroughly fleshed out. It had it’s moments, the entire torpedo / drone references to our present situation come to my mind, but apart from that it was…Boom, boom, boom…

Boom, let’s desecrate an alien temple, boom, let’s kill the next best monster, boom, let’s villate the Prime Directive because it looks cool in the big screen…boom, let’s rip off TWOK scene by scene, because it worked so well in 1982…boom, let’s rip off an episode of VOY by attacking a meeting next to a huge window…boom, let’s introduce some savage Klingons even less likable than our 60s villains but let’s blow up Praxis preempively, because it looks so cool when it comes down on Kronos…boom, let’s have transwarp beaming halfway across the galaxy so that we don’t need starships anymore…boom, let’s shoehorn Khan into Section 31, let’s cast Robocop and give him a role he already played on ENT…boom, let Scotty call Kirk “James Tiberius Perfecthair” while getting a “phonecall” in a nightclub…boom, now give this white-washed Khan a huge supership…the Narada, ah…Scimitar…ah…we’re running out of names…boom, let’s rip off TWOK scene by scene and call that philosophy… and don’t forget to rip off 9/11 by crashlanding that ship into Frisco…. yeah, I forgot the underware, the cat ladies, the Nazi-style hats… but in the end, what really did it for me, was that insane sequence with the moon being just some miles away from Earth… no warp drive, no impulse engines, navigational thrusters failing, no energy at all… one moment you see the moon and then they suddenly go down in Earth’s orbit… wow, it must have taken Neil Armstrong about 3 minutes to get there in 1969…

I’m sorry, but the guy who wrote that screenplay shouldn’t even be talking about the worst Next Gen movie… None, none of the first ten features are as badly written plotwise as STID…

59. Phil - September 21, 2013

@5. I’m guessing they would have had a screener.

60. Ahmed - September 21, 2013

@Matt,

Somehow my very short comment, one word in fact, is still in the moderation limbo !

61. K-7 - September 21, 2013

PaulB,

Nope, your aggressive response to me is not going to bully me into submissiveness.

In the context of this thoughtful podcast, for you to provide ONLY more nitpicking criticism (e.g. nacelle location…wtf?) of Bob is shamefully pathetic.

And no, claiming that your post was positive because you thanked Trekmovie for posting the podcast is ludicrous. That’s like me saying to your right now,

“Thank you for posting your response to me, Paul B” Then I say to you after saying this: “But Paul, I was positive and you can see in my post that I personally thanked you!” LOL — see how silly this logic is?

62. Disinvited - September 21, 2013

#41. Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle – September 21, 2013

You did a fine job neutering the 2009 issue by pointing out the strike. Whether or not they caught it is irrelevant, the strike made it impossible to address and so some leeway has to be given in mentioning such things.

However, PaulB’s issue with “aft nacelle” can’t be a “location” issue as “aft” means rearward which is where they are. I suspect his issue is that it’s poor language usage as it implies that there are other nacelles located on the ship at another location, and there was no strike.

My estimation is this is more than likely a common error induced by the very valid usage of “port” and “starboard” in referring to one of the two nacelles and getting confused as to nautical terms. As a grammatical policing error, it probably warrants your disdain. However, unfortunately, film Trek draws heavily on the Navy, and in that regards getting “aft” mixed up with either “port” or “starboard” is a bit of a face reddener.

63. K-7 - September 21, 2013

@41 “This post by Paul B is just shameful. Bob Orci provides a positive message about how he had and is listening to the fans here as he preps Trek 2016, and PaulB continues his rabid “bitchathon” ways, while not even acknowledging one positive thing in Bob’s post here, when there are many positives to focus on for those who have been critical of STID…as many honorable detractors of STID like Ahmed have pointed out here today.”

Exactly!

@48 “PaulB,

Given the content of this podcast, and Orci’s positive statements about listening to the fans for the next movie, and his genuine tone of thoughtfulness here towards the fan, I agree with the people here that have said that your post definitely comes across as “more nitipicking/bitching” to me as well. In the context of this great podcast, your post comes across as petty and small-minded.”

Well said!

64. Nony - September 21, 2013

They really, really need somebody schooled in feminist film theory on their creative team.

A word (or several…hundred) about Bob’s trifecta comment. In order to really grow the trifecta, the development of each member needs to be taken into account. STID was very, very heavily weighted towards Kirk+Spock and Bones basically had no relationship of any note with either of them (his friendship with Kirk was either neglected or taken for granted; his relationship with Spock was nonexistent except for a sense of vague annoyance) which meant that he had no real emotional importance as a character. Just popping the three of them into the frame together a few times — “having Bones in there” — doesn’t mean anything is actually happening, and they’re not going to be able to replicate that TOS dynamic, because both Kirk and Spock have somewhat different personalities now. It won’t just fall into place in the same way. It has to be worked at and approached from different angles, and Bones is going to need to develop in new ways too if he’s to fit in properly with the other two guys. Quinto and Pine have been encouraged to move on from Nimoy and Shatner, but they’re still writing for Urban like they’re writing for De Kelley, and it’s charming but it isn’t going to fly much longer.

65. Red Shirt Diaries - September 21, 2013

@55. Thanks for clearing this all up for us.

66. Marcus - September 21, 2013

55. Nony
I agree.

In order to restore the dynamic, Orci will have to dig a little deeper. I think he has a good foundation, but now Orci has to build upon the Kirk, Spock, and Bones relationship.

67. shamelord - September 21, 2013

Yes, Bob, please, give us a good original sci-fi story, strange new worlds, new life, new civilizations…

STID was great nevertheless — full of interesting themes but somehow a bit lost in the frantic tempo. I watched it at home and I found it a clearer than in the theater.

68. Killamarshtrek - September 21, 2013

Stayed up till after 1 in the morning the other night listening to this. Fascinating (excuse the pun) stuff! I particularly liked the way they approached asking about the WOK reactor room scene saying how it completely took him out of the movie (as it did me!) and upon hearing the WOK lines saying ‘are they really gonna do this?’ and asking who the scene was written for with Bob Orci admitting it was possibly ‘too big a hill to climb’ for the diehard Trek fans.

Can’t have been easy for boborci to admit that, I now have hope for Trek 3!

69. Dave H - September 21, 2013

#56 “They really, really need somebody schooled in feminist film theory on their creative team.”

Awesome! Bring in Jane Campion to direct, and have Diane Keaton play the villain.

;-)

70. Disinvited - September 21, 2013

#52. K-7 – September 21, 2013

Now, to be upfront, I haven’t made up my mind whether I agree with you with regards to PaulB.

However, I may be so bold, and I apologize in advance if this offends, but you were on the edge of very effective statement in support of your position and then sort of just let it drop with out completing the thought. I mean you were right on the verge of saying:

Because when your response is totally negative and you cap it with “Thanks for the article!”, it heavily implies an unspoken negative sentiment which I supply parenthetically:

“Thanks for the article (for me to criticize)!”

71. Disinvited - September 21, 2013

#70. Disinvited – September 21, 2013

“IF I may be so bold…”

looks, I need you to edit me, K-7.

72. Phil - September 21, 2013

One more thing.

Since the fans have called STD the worst film (thus beating ST V) it goes without saying that if another film is done by this team. This time the movie WILL bomb. The fans are not happy and despite everything. If you rub the fans the wrong way you are in some serious trouble.

Another Trek film by Bob, Abrams and Co will do poorly.

I for one will not pay to see another. Even if William Shatner asked me to go with him, I will not go.

Ripping off Star Trek II: TWOK was just sacrilegious.

73. Curious Cadet - September 21, 2013

@64. Nony,
“they’re still writing for Urban like they’re writing for De Kelley, and it’s charming but it isn’t going to fly much longer.”

Many people like Urban’s performance the best of the new cast. But you’re right. I’ve never really been all that impressed. He does a fantastic De Kelley doing McCoy, but that’s all it is — which is what the fans likely love. But otherwise, he’s not been given anything really substantial to do. As a result, I don’t think Urban has really been able to make McCoy his own.

Interestingly, I’ve always been a Scotty guy. I just love James Doohan’s work, warts and all. Pegg is arguably the most disparate from the original characters in the way he plays him, but strangely enough I walked away from ST09 quite happy with it, if for no other reason than Pegg has made Scotty his own. I would argue the same is true for everyone else too, except Urban. And you’re right, that probably needs to change for the character to grow.

74. The Keeper - September 21, 2013

Sorry, this guy just comes thru with deception after deception…I can hardly believe a word he’s saying any more.
I wish he’s just go away.

75. Marja - September 21, 2013

29 Marcus, I think the speed of the film had a lot to do with Abrams, the director. He was also in on including/deleting elements of the script to fit the time and so on. A movie is usually filmed in accordance with the director’s “vision” for the project. Abrams wanted relentless action and that’s what we got. I imagine Orci and Kurtzman had to “tailor” a few things out of their script to allow for action, action, action.

Here’s hoping ST3 will be far more sci-fi oriented. I think they have it in them, they just need to be allowed to “explore” – whether the director or producers “give their imprimatur” remains to be seen.

And the “excuse” for the UNDIES! scene is rather lame in my opinion. I really wish it had been done differently, but if wishes were starships, we’d all go where no one has gone before.

76. Commodore Adams - September 21, 2013

Three words, THE FINAL FRONTIER, ok….It happened nuff said. Frankly I thought Into Darkness built upon the 2009 movie well and I am eager to see how the next one progresses. Bob forget the hatters, we can’t let them bring us lovers down.

@38. Keachick there is nothing wrong with a darker Star Trek. Look at the new Battlestar! It is platinum quality sci fi! A testament to what a remake can be. Star Trek was not meant to be dark but there is nothing wrong with some darkness. DS9 got dark to certain degree. Enterprise got dark in season 3, I love how Archer turned into the badass “space Bauer” did what he had to do. But it was the networks that asked Brannon Braga to make Enterprise season 3 the arc. Star Trek is always being pulled in different directions by writers, directors, studio executives and network executives, hence why there will always be something we don’t like in every iteration of Star Trek.

77. Eric Holloway - September 21, 2013

I really liked the new movie and I’m an old Trekkie from ’66. I really liked the Pike/Kirk relationship and though I was sad to see Pike go, his death helped both Kirk and Spock for lack of a better term “see the light” regarding their friendship. I like that their friendship wasn’t just glossed over, oh they beat Nero and now they are best friends. That would have been so phony to me. I appreciate that the writers understood that and it took until the end for these characters to appreciate and recognize all that they had been through before in order to become the friends/team we were waiting for them to become. I look forward to the next movie and after watching the special features on the Blu Ray, I hope they continue to do more physical stunts on realistic sets, less green screen. Really enjoyed it! Thanks for the hard work.

78. Hat Rick - September 21, 2013

Dear Bob Orci,

I know you will never respond to this posting because you have left TrekMovie, so I won’t be disappointed if I don’t receive a response here.

– Heck, who am I kidding? Of COURSE I’ll be disappointed!

But seriously, though: My question is, when is/are Paramount/Bad Robot gonna officially announce the third sequel? We’re not gettin’ any younger.

“I don’t know” is an acceptable answer, though not a preferred one. The ideal one would be: “Tomorrow at 10 a.m. — and I’m sure of it, just you wait!”

Thank you, on behalf of a billion Trek fans, or more, for your anticipated reply and/or nonreply.

79. Marja - September 21, 2013

The “aft nacelle” thing
Maybe the dialog was originally written “in the aft part of the nacelle” – we’ll never know. Sometimes dialog gets blown but everything else is perfect and the director leaves it as is after some more takes, which may not come out as well visually or whatever.

Feminist Film TheoryFine, as long as Uhura and C. Marcus get to work [and have the all-important non-male-related chat] together, and Uhura gets to be the professional woman in love with her professional man. Spock and Uhura contribute to the Enterprise “family” as a stable “rock-solid” couple. They also add a note of romance and humanity and the exploration of diversity with its occasional missteps. It’s “nerd love” at its finest – two committed professional geniuses, in love.

I’d welcome more McCoy! But I don’t think the trio is the Holy of Holies. It’s great. In this AU, however, I think there might be room for Uhura to be Spock’s “advisor” as McCoy is Kirk’s. A quartet, in other words. A woman should be part of the leadership, and there are sensible ways to do it. Uhura’s a linguist, and if the Enterprise meets up with “new life”, she’d be the one to communicate with it/them. Her advice would be crucial in command decision-making.

80. dswynne1 - September 21, 2013

@12 (Smoking Robot): You should have added “In my opinion…” when saying that STiD was a very, very bad film. Not everyone thinks so. As for what I thought of the film, I just felt that the film’s reliance on references in order create a story around is what made the film less enjoyable than the ST’09 film, IMO.

81. Curious Cadet - September 21, 2013

@43. Unbel1ever,
“When we left, he said: “I wish they had left Kirk dead. That would have been brave and opened up new possibilities.”

That’s kind of how I felt. But they obviously couldn’t kill Kirk, and postponing the inevitable a la TWOK/TSFS would have been a little lame.

But they could have killed Chekov. He’s arguably the most underutilized member of the new crew, the least developed, and had the least to do in STID and ST09. And instead of adding Carol Marcus to an already overcrowded crew, she could have replaced Chekov, giving us some much needed diversity while assuring all of the featured cast a fighting chance for individual character development.

I really wanted to see Kirk have to make a life or death decision that sent one of his “family” to their death. In fact, I thought that’s where it was heading after the opening with Spock and his dressing down with Pike.

Oh well, a missed opportunity. Perhaps in the next one.

82. Marja - September 21, 2013

50 Barney, I imagine Bob Orci comes to lurk occasionally. I’m sure he can tell the “b*tchers&moaners” from people who want to contribute thoughts rather than mere criticism. Criticism is important, but should be constructive in nature. I’m not always aces at this, but usually try to praise the good and make positive suggestions in hopes that Orci, et.al. focus on that.

72 Curious, I think I really fell in love with Scotty in STiD – he was a “miracle worker” and got lots of significant heroic stuff to do. Pegg did a great job dramatically, from humorous to tragic. I’ve never thought Pegg’s Scotty was a caricature or mere comic relief. His lines did make me smile a lot in ST2009, but somehow he inhabited the role of a younger Scotty very well.

I can only wish they’d been able to portion a little more action or meaningful dialogue over to McCoy. I loved his scene on the Bridge with Kirk and Spock ["Don't agree with me Spock, it makes me very uncomfortable"], offering input and a humanistic point of view. The problem was, he was sort of inserted here, there and everywhere in a rather odd way. And all the metaphors! At least they “hung a lantern” on that. My hope is that McCoy will be more central to the plot in the next film, offering opinions, haranguing even, to force Kirk and Spock to face some action’s impact, and practicing medicine.

83. dswynne1 - September 21, 2013

Bob Orci,

I think that it is time for Bad Robot to consider a Next Generation series, one that has shortened seasons (13 episodes instead of the traditional 26 episodes), and has the format similar to the BBC’s “Doctor Who” series (an over-arching storyline with standalone episodes). In fact, check these sites out as to who could reprise the classic TNG roles:

http://www.themarysue.com/star-trek-tng-recast/#0

http://www.craveonline.com/film/articles/500729-casting-j-j-abrams-star-trek-the-next-generation#/slide/1

http://www.portlandmercury.com/BlogtownPDX/archives/2012/06/21/and-when-they-reboot-the-next-generation-this-will-be-the-blueprint

The third batch of possible candidates is my favorite casting choice. Check them out. In fact, since JJ Abrams is already in the UK, maybe the BBC could set up the series for British consumption, with JJ being involved?

Cheers.

84. Weerd1 - September 21, 2013

Thanks for coming back out Mr. Orci. I eagerly await your return to Twitter as well. Haters are Herberts.

85. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 21, 2013

@Marja

“Feminist Film TheoryFine, as long as Uhura and C. Marcus get to work [and have the all-important non-male-related chat] together, and Uhura gets to be the professional woman in love with her professional man. Spock and Uhura contribute to the Enterprise “family” as a stable “rock-solid” couple. They also add a note of romance and humanity and the exploration of diversity with its occasional missteps. It’s “nerd love” at its finest – two committed professional geniuses, in love.

I’d welcome more McCoy! But I don’t think the trio is the Holy of Holies. It’s great. In this AU, however, I think there might be room for Uhura to be Spock’s “advisor” as McCoy is Kirk’s. A quartet, in other words. A woman should be part of the leadership, and there are sensible ways to do it. Uhura’s a linguist, and if the Enterprise meets up with “new life”, she’d be the one to communicate with it/them. Her advice would be crucial in command decision-making.”

Well said. I also have to believe that Uhura is some sort of Communications Engineer, and that has to play a part as well. There’s lot they could do with that if they wanted to I believe.

86. Jerry Modene - September 21, 2013

#80, IIRC, there were some rumors going around some months ago that Chekov was going to be killed off. Then again, Chekov almost got killed off as long ago as STTMP.

In “Chekov’s Enterprise,” Koenig even jokes about it with the following dialogue to follow the first attack on the Enterprise:

McCoy: Chekov’s burns were worse than we thought.
Kirk: Meaning?
McCoy: He’s dead, Jim.

87. Keachick - September 21, 2013

There is already so much darkness on TV and in the cinema. Star Trek needs to keep being the exception – a beacon of hope and light. Fortunately, the final scenes with Kirk’s speech, along with this young captain, speaking the mission statement “Space, the final frontier…”, have, hopefully, properly laid the groundwork for good things to come…

Bob Orci – what say you?

Menosia is out there – thataway, or could it be, thisaway? – too far away from Romulans, Klingons, Gorn or other seriously violent species…

88. Garak's Pride - September 21, 2013

PaulB,

I don’t know why you felt the need to lambaste me in your post? I was just saying simply that your post was embarrassing to me as a Star Trek fan. Here we have a very insightful interview with Orci that addresses many of the major issues that have been brought up with STID, and yet you are bitching about Nacelles and that 5 years old “Federation” line issue.

Yes, I found it embarrassing as a Star Trek fan to read your grumpy post, which was just negative nitpicking again. Your post didn’t even have the slightest positive thing to say about the podcast. I was disappointed with you, and your knee-jerk response to me here now leaves me even more disappointed. You seem to be angry person with a lot of animosity here towards Orci and other Trek fans.

So I would plead with you to drop the Grumpy Old Man-Curmudgeon routine. It’s wearing thin now. It’s boring as well.

89. Marja - September 21, 2013

One thing I could not understand in the final cut of STiD was – why did they not continue the same sound of Kirk’s voice speaking to the people at the memorial / recommissioning service at Starfleet Headquarters?

He’s winding up his speech, and it’s this beautiful sound, covering all, echoing through the air as he talks about the oath with which Pike swore him in, and then all of a sudden it’s like Kirk goes into a sound booth to say “Space … the final frontier” &c. I sure hope they fix this someday, it sounds ridiculous. It sounds closed in when it should be expansive.

90. Ahmed - September 21, 2013

@ 86. Keachick – September 21, 2013

“There is already so much darkness on TV and in the cinema. Star Trek needs to keep being the exception – a beacon of hope and light.”

Totally agree with you there. Since The Dark Knight, every major movie is trying to be as dark as possible. Normally I’ve no problem with that, but with Star Trek, I want to see something different, a bright & hopeful future for the human race.

Don’t get me wrong, I love dark drama like BSG, The Walking Dead, Low Winter Sun & other shows. But Star Trek was always, to me at least, about the path that humanity should seek to bring order & peaceful coexistence to our society.

91. Dave H - September 21, 2013

@84

I hear you S/U — in general, I agree.

But man, if we ever get to the point where Spock, Kirk, Uhura and Carol are playing a game of fracking Bridge in 10-Foward, with little “David” Kirk and “baby Tuvoc” playing on the floor around then…that is when I will check out.

:-)

92. Garak's Pride - September 21, 2013

Hi Ahmed,

I notice that K-7 was attempting to reach out with an olive branch to you in post #35. It would be good if you two could move forward here in a positive manner. In would thus encourage you to respond.

93. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - September 21, 2013

@88. Marja – September 21, 2013

My theory on this is that “Space, the final frontier…” is not the captain’s oath. It did not make sense to me at the time that it would be.

We never hear Kirk recite the captain’s oath. The scene cuts away to the “Space…” voiceover.

That is why, in my opinion, the sound of the voice is different.

94. Platitude - September 21, 2013

Thoroughly enjoyed both movies, so this was interesting to me just to hear the thought process behind them. I appreciate his candor and also I enjoyed the interviewer’s frankness in their questioning.

Despite my enjoyment of the first two movies, I am hoping that his goal of having something more along the lines of a sci-fi mystery come to fruition, I think that would be nice. I know at one point on this site someone made a comment that they wanted to see the third trek as “what Prometheus should have been.” I think thats spot on. Klingons could be there, sure, but there should be some other point to the movie other than fighting Klingons.

95. Ahmed - September 21, 2013

@ 91. Garak’s Pride – September 21, 2013

“Hi Ahmed,

I notice that K-7 was attempting to reach out with an olive branch to you in post #35. It would be good if you two could move forward here in a positive manner. In would thus encourage you to respond.”

Actually I did responded to K-7 & I was more than happy to move forward.

For some reason, my comments were stuck in the moderation limbo but thankfully, Matt managed to put it back. It should be there now at comment #37 & #44.

Thanks for your effort to keep the peace here :)

96. Keachick - September 21, 2013

#88 – Yes, the final speech of Kirk, which segues into the mission statement, which is what I call the “Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages…” speech -

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I think the DVD version is different from the cinematic version. I keep thinking that his speech at the podium was longer, where words like “curiosity”, “family”, “expression” and such like were used. Has the speech been shortened? It is still very good.

Yes, the way Pine/Kirk’s voice changes when it comes to him saying “Space, the final frontier…” is noticeable. I do agree that when his voice echoed, it sounded better. Gosh, Pine has a nice speaking voice…oh dear, stop me, I may start drooling….phew, that’s better, now where were we?

Anyone know if there were two versions of the speech recorded?

97. Red Dead Ryan - September 21, 2013

Cygnus X1,

You keep on trashing Bob Orci here. It’s gotten tiresome with PaulB resorting to petty nitpicking, and now you are telling Bob to “blow it out” his shorts. And subsequently requesting that he shut up. This type of behaviour from you two have derailed what was a special thread featuring thoughts and statements from Bob Orci.

#58. Smike

“I’m sorry, but the guy who wrote that screenplay shouldn’t even be talking about the worst Next Gen movie… None, none of the first ten features are as badly written plotwise as STID…”

Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense on your part. Just utter nonsense. No one can possibly insist that “Nemesis” (or “Insurrection” or “The Final Frontier” for that matter) is better written than STID. There just isn’t any credibility in that statement whatsoever.

98. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 21, 2013

@#90 Dave

Lol. Well, I think the movies will be over before it gets to that point. But, I would love to see a little post credit flash-forward of S/U and baby (which could be a girl, you know ;-)) at the end of the last film, a la the end of the third Pirates of the Caribbean movie. I know, I know… But that’s my hope. :-)

99. Red Shirt Diaries - September 21, 2013

Red Dead Ryan,

You are 100% correct.

Smike, Cygnus X-1 and PaulB are not participating on this site right now for “the right reasons.”

Here, we now have a thoughtful and reflective Roberto Orci who is obviously taking to heart all the criticisms from fans about STID.

So what do Smike, Cygnus X-1 and PaulB do?

Smike: “I’m sorry, but the guy who wrote that screenplay shouldn’t even be talking about the worst Next Gen movie… None, none of the first ten features are as badly written plot-wise as STID”

Cygnus X-1 (to Bob Orci): “Oh, blow it out your shorts. Seriously.,..I can’t even be bothered listening to what this guy has to say any more. Two hours of him blabbering….”

PaulB: “Wrong…that’s what pissed off fans… the idiocy…careless, sloppy…That hardly qualifies as “bitching,” nor did it deserve YOUR attack on ME for posting it.”

This is mean-spirited and pathetic. These three are metaphorically by their actions here are sticking a hot poker in Orci’s heart and telling him to F himself . Garak was right — we should all be ashamed to be Trek fans today when we read the poop that this coming out of the mouths of Smike, Cygnus X-1 and PaulB. SHAME ON YOU THREE — SHAME ON YOU !!!!!!!!!!

Matt Wright, I think you need to reign in these malcontents the way you recently had to reign in K-7. Please be even-handed here, lest we think that you are favoring the people who keep trashing Roberto Orci.

100. Marja - September 21, 2013

Personally I’m not ashamed to be a Star Trek fan : )

I think some “fans” have exhibited behavior to be ashamed about.

What use is it to tell Orci to get lost? He’s contracted for the next movie! What’s the point of being nasty?

101. pock speared - September 21, 2013

@ahmed
i have all of your posts, sort of collected and such. should i post them, or will you just vanish?

102. ironhyde - September 21, 2013

Orci always sounds sensible when he sits down, clears his head, and makes these kinds of comments. The trouble is, when things actually come to pass, it’s never quite the way he says. When he said he dropped Khan out of the St2009 credits, i think a vast majority of people breathed a sigh of relief. Some good that nonsense did. He went away from Khan… HOW did he end up back on it? How could that have possibly happened? And yeah, the scene with the torpedo in space, it all sounds good.. but what we got was a confusingly naked woman being oggled by a pervert-Kirk… So none of what was intended matters!

Once upon a time, I really thought he had figured out a clever Khan story… :( Fact is, I’ll believe it when I see it from now on.

103. Marcus - September 21, 2013

@100. pock speared,

Why? If he has K7 and Ahmed have made peace, why would you want to open up old wounds?

104. Ricky - September 21, 2013

I would like to see Shatner in Star Trek, at least one more time. Even if he acts as the mirror Kirk. He is responsible for bringing Captain Kirk to life and making the man a world wide icon. He at least deserves that.

105. Buzz Cagney - September 21, 2013

#80 aww kill Chekov? No, he is fun. For sure he wasn’t much used, particularly in Darkness but he, as played by Anton, is a delightful character.

106. Star Trek Nemesis blows, is the point - September 21, 2013

@32. “It’s odd … Orci says they are responsible for everything in the movie, and Paramount had absolutely nothing to do with anything in it. Yet he goes on to say they’ve hopefully earned the right from the studio to do a real scifi movie. At best this is contradiction — so, they just second guessed correctly what the studio wanted, despite wanting to make a much more interesting film? It seems to me then that the studio obviously had a hand in their decisions even if they didn’t have to directly ask, or otherwise get involved.”

What’s odd about it? Orci is saying that whatever people don’t like in the movie isn’t because the studio said, “No, don’t have the character be John Harrison, make him Khan,” or “Alice Eve is attractive and we want a scene where she’s in her underwear.” The studio let them do what they want because they liked the scripts. But, if the studio got a script they didn’t like, because it’s too sci-fi, too “out there,” they could have said, “Dump the script and start over again.”

The fickleness of the movie studio is common.

107. TREKWEBMASTER - September 21, 2013

I can “Grok” the last two Star Trek films. I find them very refreshing and also giddy with the realization of only having not only one universe, but two, perhaps more. To a writer’s glee to have the opportunity to be able work in-and-around both universes, at-will, makes for some well-written story-lines, if done with excellence.

It’s logical and also prudent to consider the next Star Trek film, which would be the third in the rebooted or alternate universe, would have to possess qualities which can measure-up to possibly be a “launch-pad” for a television series. It has the most to gain by setting the tone for future series or films, and conversely, has the most to lose. So it ought to be a product which can afford to stand-alone or be a “launching-pad,” either-or.

What was hinted to in STID and happens to be the core-element in all things Star Trek, is exploration, more specifically, the “five-year mission.” Doing this would complete the “Bell-Curve,” of all things Star Trek. It would seem very logical, if you think about it.

Dr. Carol Marcus is a very intriguing character in STID and I wished to see more of her. I like her accent and I like her style. She works. Simply put. I also would like to see more of what make Uhura tick. Somehow she seems “flat” to me. She needs more “swagger.” With class. Perfectly written. I really don’t know how to take the Spock / Uhura relationship because we’ve never seen it before. I was always under the impression that Uhura and Scotty were more of an item than Spock and Uhura, but hey it’s a new universe so who am I to say that can’t happen.

Scotty is my personal favorite, and I’m not saying Pine and Quinto aren’t stellar in their roles, but that’s Kirk and Spock. But Simon Pegg’s version of Scotty really suspends my disbelief. I can relate to this guy. He’s Scotty, alright. Right-down to the swearing under your breath. Aye, lad.

Another area I seem to keep coming-back to is the pace of both the films. Action is fine, but somehow I need to see more slower scenes which punctuate the action scenes and increase conflict but never manipulate exposition. That pondering heavy foreboding feeling right before something goes right or something goes wrong that you would never expect kind-of slower-pace. If you know what I mean, Captain. It’s a matter of pride.

And now we get to the last but surely not least object of my obsession in Star Trek. The Big “E.” She’s a beautiful girl, but she needs some additional refit, surely after the beating she took from that “Excelsior-esque” monstrosity which tried so hard to destroy her. She’s going-on a five-year mission, and must look her best. The 1950′s resemblence to a Chevrolet needs to quietly be remolded and finessed into something more than what Captain Pike had in-mind. I really like some of the remodded versions of a Constitution Class I’ve seen. I really hate to critique the Big “E,” but those curves and lines are very fond and remind me so much of growing-up and what Star Trek stands-for.

Bob, thank you so much for all you do and I hope you continue doing it. You guys have done a great job and have given us all so much more than we had before, and I wish to thank everyone for doing it. Just the ability to critique and admire and interact with everyone here is a testament to the spirit of Star Trek. And dove-tails nicely into the philosophy that Gene Roddenberry would be very proud-of today. Seeing how much Star Trek is enriched with the new movies and hopefully new television series. I just had to put that in for old-times sake. One can always hope.

Thank you all,

108. Dial M for MJ - September 22, 2013

Looks Like MJ is back to posting under one of his many aliases K-7

109. dswynne1 - September 22, 2013

@96 (Red Dead Ryan): Yeah, anyone who say that STiD is the worst film of the Star Trek franchise are either haters or tasteless (as in “bad taste”) . Let’s take a look at what “Red Tomatoes” says about the Star Trek franchise, as they rate each film (critics/audience reaction by percentage), shall we?

1) Star Trek: The Motion Picture – 45/46
2) ST2: Wrath of Khan – 90/87
3) ST3: The Search for Spock – 78/60
4) ST4: The Voyage Home – 85/77
5) ST5: The Final Frontier – 21/35
6) ST6: The Undiscovered Country – 83/77
7) ST: Generations – 47/60
8) ST: First Contact – 92/83
9) ST: Insurrection – 55/51
10) ST: Nemesis – 37/54
11) Star Trek – 95/89
12) Star Trek into Darkness – 87/91

Honorably mentioned: Galaxy Quest – 89/68

In the future, people who dislike STiD should qualify their remarks by starting every sentence in the form of “In my opinion…”, followed by the reason for the dislike. After all, everyone is in entitled to his or her opinion…

110. Hickstarter - September 22, 2013

Please leave. You were bad on Xena, you were bad on Transformers, and – surprise surprise – your Star Trek really isn’t much better.

Leave it to talented professionals.

111. Keachick - September 22, 2013

I have listened to the entire podcast and I think I need to listen again because there are things that were mentioned, especially by Bob, that I need to hear again and think on. I found most helpful what Bob said about how he approached putting a story together. I guess this is a standard story/screenwriting process that his education would have taught him but something I did not know.

Interesting. Thank you, Bob Orci.

112. Colinar - September 22, 2013

#107 – TREKWEBMASTER

that is one post that made this trekkie almost…emotional.

Thank you. And thank you too, Bob Orci.

LLAP

113. Sid - September 22, 2013

STID would’ve been perfect (for me) if

- no KHAAAAN, which was corny as hell and
- if the “whoops Khan’s really the bad guy after all” bit hadn’t have happened on the bridge of the Vengeance. It would’ve been a nice twist that the villain we were all expecting turned out not to really be the villain, Kirk and Khan defeat Marcus together, and then Khan is tried for the attack and exiled (with his crew) to Ceti Alpha V, which is all he really wanted anyway.

Also, of course, all we Trek nerds in the audience could nod and smile, because we all know what’s going to happen to Ceti Alpha V, and thus the story is tied into TWOK instead of just references.

Otherwise, damn good movie.

boborci, I am willing to intern ;)

114. Optimistic Doodle - September 22, 2013

Trek WILL return to TV, says Orci :-)
“Star Trek ain’t going anywhere. It’s not going away from TV either.
[ I do think that audiences are sophisticated enough that Star Trek can be Star Trek in both mediums now. ]
It just depends on when it comes back and how it’s programmed against the movies.”

Indeed, audiences _are_ sophisticated enough.

115. Oscar - September 22, 2013

I quote David Mack:
«Throught much of goings on fans will note the many times Abrams apes portions of previous Star Trek Films in what could be perceived as fan service, but instead it feels more like a crutch holding the entire film up as there is not enough story to warrant a 132 minute running. In fact, the story is so small the only dialogue it contains are conversations on the way on the way to.more action or Harrison droning on behind a glass like a robot Hannibal Lecter.»
I quote Soul of Star Trek:
«It bothers me that the author of a legitimate editorial article was demeaned by a much powerful person, by a principal Star Trek movie writer with a kind of attempted humiliation that smacks intimidation. I simply can not imagine Trek principals of any earlier time responding as Orci did as such critique…And without some of this criticism of a decade ago, Orci would not have gotten to write Star Trek movies.»

116. crazydaystrom - September 22, 2013

I listen to the Mission Log podcasts weekly and heard this Orci supplemental about a week ago. I was struck by how humble Bob sounded. Still I’m going to make every attempt to maintain lowered expectations for the next film. Self defense of sorts. There are are so many factors that go into the making of a tent pole franchise film called Star Trek and even the best of intentions can be sidetracked or thwarted. Or better yet I’ll employ my standard ‘Hope for the best but prepare for the worst’ attitude. I did not for STID and I was disappointed. I DO want the next one to impress me but…*shrugs*

AND

@K7-
“The haters should be ashamed of themselves. Should have just been polite to the guy and given him a chance to improve movie #3. He’d still be here if they hadn’t been such jerkweed asses to him and embarrassed him publicly.”

Not to start anything, really, but that comment could be considered the comment of a hating jerk weed ass. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

IDIC

117. Adam Clark - September 22, 2013

The one thing I hated in ST09 was the scene with the cop and young Kirk. The dialogue in that scene was very in your face.

118. Colin - September 22, 2013

I think one of the reasons that “haters”, like me, are vanishing from this board is the “lovers” of this film have effectively out-shouted us. (If those who don’t like the film are “haters”, which is at one extreme, than those who like the film are “lovers”. A middle ground doesn’t seem to exist in this debate.)

119. Melllvar - September 22, 2013

I say this with no sarcasm whatsoever. I just watched Into Darkness after for the first time since it was at the movies, being the 3rd time in total. It’s an awesome movie. Not only is it a hell of a ride, but there are so many wicked trek shout-outs in there (I especially liked the Section 31 reference) and the action scenes were amazeballs.

There may very well be issues with fitting the details of the story in with what we understand about what has happened before in trek. But it doesn’t change the fact that this movie flipn rocks and sets us up A) for the 5 year mission and B) for more potential Khan in the future. Does ANYONE really have a problem with that??

I think in time people will be willing to look to the future as opposed to lamenting the past. I sure as hell am looking forward to the next film, it has SOOOOOO much potential!

Mr Orci, I loved it. Good work buddeh :)

120. Cygnus-X1 - September 22, 2013

97. Red Dead Ryan – September 21, 2013
99. Red Shirt Diaries – September 21, 2013

You know what, fellow Trekkies/ers/ians/uloids?

Now I’m gonna give you a piece of my mind. And here it is:

You’re not wrong. Well, not entirely. But neither am I.

I do sympathize with your complaining about my complaining. Truth be told, I’d rather not be complaining. Since 2009, I’ve really tried hard to keep an open mind and positive attitude about BR taking over Trek. And it’s not true that “I keep trashing Bob Orci on this site.” I did kinda trash him in this thread, but I’m usually making analytical remarks about the scripts that he writes as opposed to ad hominem remarks like saying that his remarks are arrogant.

But I’d rather not be complaining about any of it. I’d rather be praising Orci and BR as the saviors of Trek. But no number of Easter eggs or Trek series references compensates for their distastefully ripping off literally the best of Trek in film in a vain effort to bolster and fortify their own weak ideas. And they’d actually already used the “revenge-obsession” theme in their first movie! But something told them that they could go back to that well, where from they’d only taken a few bucketfuls in ST’09, and drain it dry this time. And the something that told them that is called “poor taste” and what I can only see as an almost total lack of shame. And now, like a week after he told fans “That’s why I get to write movies and you don’t” and so forth, he’s out doing this self-promotion. I’m sorry…but it’s all just too much.

Again, sorry, but I just can’t see it any other way. I wish I could be Pollyanna and lap up every thing with the STAR TREK logo on it, but I just can’t. The best that I can do is to try and keep my critical comments to myself, but how does that serve the franchise? Consider the following…

Jared Whitley wrote that “You Just Can’t Bring Star Trek Back To The Small Screen…” editorial in which he linked his own STID review at his blog. And there he mentioned that (I hope I’m not misattributing this) his overall impression of STID was that it was not a movie for Trek fans, but he liked it anyway.

While I can’t entirely fault him for his attitude, and I do find (somewhat) endearing the unconditional love for anything Trek expressed by so many fans, it is precisely this attitude that is taken advantage of whenever Paramount decides to greenlight a new Star Trek movie. I mean, I know that Paramount doesn’t have to make ANY Star Trek movies if they don’t feel like it. They could just sit on the rights and let them rot, however…

Consider just how bad Star Trek movies have been. The best thing that I can say about STID is that it was more entertaining (due to the visuals and 3D) than STV, Generations or Nemesis. The writing in STID wasn’t any better than in those other movies, but because the action scenes in STID so heavily outweighed the movie’s dramatic scenes in terms of screen time, the confusion and overall effects of the bad writing went by more quickly than in previous badly written Trek movies; and the film’s stunning visuals further distracted us from it.

So, just how bad does a Trek film have to get before you’ll feel it’s acceptable to sour on the people who made it?

I come here because I greatly enjoy talking about Star Trek. And if the topic is two hours of self-promotion by one of the guys responsible for an offensive Trek movie, and this coming just on the heels of that same guy arrogantly telling off Trek fans…well, I might just have something to say about it, and what I say about it might not be entirely laudatory.

That being said, I do understand that too much negativity can be a downer, so I will try my absolute hardest to keep comments stemming from my feelings of being annoyed, off-put and offended by what BR has done with Trek to a bare minimum.

My comments didn’t “derail” the conversation, though. It’s going on just fine.

121. Captain Slow - September 22, 2013

Boborci come home! Trekmovie isn’t the same anymore!

122. Oscar - September 22, 2013

I quote Bob Greenberger:
«Screenwriters appear to have taken the most obvious traits the mass audience knows about JamesT Kirk and ignored the rest. This means Pine gets to play a hot headed jerk who is all instinc and no intellect…It is as the production crew loved star trek without inderstanding it. The slopiness in the plotting, what I termet as a Swiss cheese script, is a deep shame given they took four years to write this disappointment and then they tell us they waited for the right story to present Gisela.»

123. Scooter - September 22, 2013

I just bought STID and the more I watch it, the more I like it. Honestly, I was disappointed in it in the theater. Not due to production values, but because of the Khan rehash. I really hope the next movie has far less tributes to past movies and does more to stand on it own. I’ve enjoyed the new movies but it’s time to move on. It’s a 5 year mission. So many new opportunities to explore these new actors and their take on the characters we have all grown to love so much.

124. Optimistic Doodle - September 22, 2013

About the (only two!) new movies, the thing I’m still trying to get used to is that the actors/characters don’t have any television history.

Sure we have an image of the crew, but that’s an image of the original crew. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, I’m just saying it’s … different, connecting to these (alternate) movie characters.

125. Aurore - September 22, 2013

“After we had that story, well, now can it be Khan? We started at Khan, went away from Khan, and then came back to him.”

_______

Thank you for the article.

I don’t know if it’s in the interview on the Mission Log Podcast which I haven’t listened to yet, however, Alex Kurtzman talked about the way “they” finally decided to include Khan in the sequel ( amongst other topics ) , a few days ago :

Spinoff Online: You weren’t able to talk about it for a long time, but now that it’s out there, what to you was the purpose or value in making Khan the villain?

Alex Kurtzman: Well, we debated that very question for a full year, because I think you can’t think of Star Trek without thinking of Khan. He is the gold standard in villainy when it comes to Star Trek. So we all really wanted to make sure that we felt that we had a real reason to do it, in the same way that we felt we had a real reason to do the first one. And our minds actually rejected the idea of doing Khan for a while, and when we started asking ourselves what we felt we wanted the story to be about, and we came, I think, to the conclusion that it really needed to be about the fact that while Kirk and Spock had come together as, let’s call them colleagues at the end of the first one, they weren’t really friends yet. And we knew the second movie needed to be about solidifying their friendship…and ultimately that led us back around to Khan. And the idea that Khan, in so many ways what made him such an amazing villain in [Ricardo] Montalban’s version was that he really did put Kirk and Spock’s friendship to the test. So I think we wanted to harness the spirit of that idea. That said, we did not want to redo Wrath of Khan etc…

( For more, link if authorized here ) :

http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2013/09/10/star-treks-alex-kurtzman-talks-khan-kirks-journey-carol-marcus-underwear/comment-page-1/

126. TrekkieJan - September 22, 2013

I listened to the entire interview and one thing struck me:

You really can’t compare the problems of a hugely budgeted movie – which had 4 years to work on a script – with the problems of a scantily budgeted TV show that needed a new script every week.

Yes, particularly in S3, when Roddenberry had left the show because the network wouldn’t back down on a scheduling change designed to kill the show – there were some stinkers. There’s also a lot of charm, the actors comfortable in their portrayals by now and fighting to the very end.

Or even to the problems of later iterations that were run by execs with a stranglehold on the franchise, wanting to milk every last cent out of a franchise they had long since run out of ideas for. Star Trek wasn’t tired, they were. The last season of Enterprise- the one everyone says was the best – happened when they brought in new Trek-savvy writers.

I recently saw STID – and I count myself among those who saw little Trek in it. (For the record, I’ve never lived in my parents’ basement and am a fit woman of a dignified age. I am a writer/editor and have produced two movies.)

I was actually excited as the movie opened on a beautifully alien world Roddenberry’s show could never have afforded – and then cringed as it turned into a bad Indy knock off. The “science” had me rolling my eyes as did the Enterprise being under water. Okay, the writers were probably told to have a scene where the Enterprise rose out of the water. But – Scotty’s line to explain that *came before his worry about Spock* – that didn’t even seem *a little* emotionally real to me.

Kirk’s character assassination from the first movie continued – and probably got worse as he’s supposed to be an officer and a gentleman now. I like Pine well enough. I do not like this Kirk, as written. I do not respect him. As a viewer, my disdain for Kirk trumps the wonder at seeing the two cat girls. I am unimpressed. A little pissed off at this point.

Nothing in Spock or Kirk’s subsequent scenes impress me as real. I never saw Top Gun, so I’m not sure who Kirk is supposed to be – but he’s not the master strategist who earns his rank under fire and beats Spock at chess or a scientist. He’s a stupid randy kid – too old (and too randy) to be Luke Skywalker. His arguments make no sense. Neither do Spock’s.

I am one of the very few fans who felt – and said here – that I would not mind Khan in the sequel if he were done well. That it was a fresh opportunity to see him. So, although I realize I am in the minority on this – kudos.

I was looking forward to seeing Mickey and Sherlock – but again did not believe Mickey’s character actions. He killed people to save his daughter? What kind of legacy did he leave her…? I didn’t believe it. Not for a moment. I didn’t sympathize because it never felt even a little real. It felt like an emotionally unsuccessful knock off of the successful father’s sacrifice from the first movie.

I was not bothered at all by the topicality of the plot – I love being made to think. It just made no *sense* to me.

Why did Khan put his people into live torpedoes…? (Some that once again defies any sense and undermine’s what’s left of my belief in the story.)

Did he really think Admiral Marcus had killed them? Okay, the Khan we know would have *maybe* taken revenge – I buy that – but I honestly still can’t figure out whether he was still playing Marcus’ game (I think he was, despite what the script seems to say. I mean, after firing on the Star Fleet admirals – with no sign of security in sight – very reminiscent of 9-11 – he flees to Quonos – where Marcus wants him. Marcus wants this war.

But Khan turns….(again, I guessing here) when he learns Kirk has the torpedos. Did Khan think Kirk wouldn’t have the torpedos? What did he think he was making them for, if not the attack on Quonos?

He says he thought Marcus had killed his people. If he truly thought his people were dead why did he have Kirk open the torpedoes? Why am I thinking this and Kirk isn’t…? Yeah yeah Kirk’s mentor died – another thing that felt kind of pointless and wasted to me – like the loss of Vulcan in the first movie – and maybe he’s not thinking so clearly. At this point.

Due to the release of the movie overseas first, of course, I am not surprised by the reveal. (I never was, honestly – I knew it would be Khan by the end of the last movie. It says so right in the commentary track.)

So, not surprised, I’m sitting there thinking about the plot (and thus probably a little underwhelmed at the space flying about – but there should be something for the ADD crowd, I’m not selfish. I feel like I saw it in the first movie, but I enjoyed it there too.)

So I spend my time wondering what would have happened if Spock hadn’t called Spock Prime and told Kirk. Would Kirk have been surprised by Khan’s actions because Khan successfully manipulated him? Or was Khan angry at the end because Kirk betrayed him? The fact that Khan kills Marcus suggests he really had turned.

But what a smashing place for smarter characters to get two steps ahead of Khan and Marcus – and save a bunch of destruction. Too bad *that* didn’t happen.

But of course, the writer’s job here to to have a reason for a gob-load of destruction. It’s a summer movie and there’s Michael Bay to compete with. There are times I do not envy you, Mr. Orci.

But at what point does Khan turn…? The fact that I still don’t know suggests to me – as a writer and editor – that there were artifacts of changes throughout the script – lines were kept that made sense in a previous iteration, etc. The final result – although it’s certainly made me think – does not make any sense.

I’m sorry.

Forget that I advise new writers that things like magic blood are too silly even for the fanfic crowd.

The movie is big and noisy and silly and I so wanted to love it. But where it fails is in the script. Even with all the explosions required for a summer movie you guys *needed to do better.*

I still wish that, like Roddenberry, you guys hired SF writers to at least block your next story. And please, someone who gets Trek.

127. Marcus - September 22, 2013

Alex Kurtzman: “Well, we debated that very question for a full year, because I think you can’t think of Star Trek without thinking of Khan. He is the gold standard in villainy when it comes to Star Trek.”

—–

I do not think that is actually true. If Kurtzman asked that question prior to the 1989, his statement would have some sort of merit.

Gul Dukat and Winn Adami are the new gold standard.

128. Curious Cadet - September 22, 2013

@125 Aurore,
Alex Kurtzman: “And the idea that Khan, in so many ways what made him such an amazing villain in [Ricardo] Montalban’s version was that he really did put Kirk and Spock’s friendship to the test.”

Hmmmmm. How did MontalKhan do that exactly? I don’t recall Kirk and Spock’s friendship “tested” in any respect in TWOK, or Space Seed. What aspect of their friendship is put “to the test” exactly?

Thanks so much for collecting these often perplexing remarks made around the web. They really help elucidate the thinking behind many of STIDs debatable choices, or maybe I mean obfuscate … Haha

129. Ahmed - September 22, 2013

@ 101. pock speared – September 21, 2013

“@ahmed
i have all of your posts, sort of collected and such. should i post them, or will you just vanish?”

huh ? What are you getting at here ?

K-7 & I made our peace yesterday, but for some reason, my comments didn’t appeared on the site. Matt came in & approved it & they are here now at # 37 & #44.

So, I’ve no idea what are you talking about.

130. Marcus - September 22, 2013

@126. TrekkieJan, “Nothing in Spock or Kirk’s subsequent scenes impress me as real.”

———

I wasn’t the only one? rofl… If this was Prime Universe Kirk, I think he would have dropped kick both Spock and Pike. Since this is an alternative universe, I think the realistic move would have been to have Kirk quit Starfleet. I so much wanted Kirk to flip off both men.

131. Commodore Adams - September 22, 2013

In the editorial on trekmovie ‘you just cant bring star trek back to the small screen’ there is an embedded youtube video entitled ‘Mr. Plinkett – Star Trek: Into Darkness Reference’ which has shows the similarities (ripoffs or nods depending on how kind or bitter you want to be) between into darkness and previous star trek. I have found a video (unlike Mr Plinkett’s video) shows not the similarities but what one could consider flaws. For the most part he is correct but there are probably one or two, maybe even three that I disagree with. I.e. Carol Marcus and her British accent could easily be explained by her living in Britain for a number of years. Its a fact people develop accents based on where they live and some develop it faster than others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REOjxvQPQNQ#t=292

There are indeed many flaws with into darkness and just because someone is writing hollywood movies does not mean it takes a hollywood writer to notice certain issues which could have been better but were deemed good enough.

I love the new movies, Ive already watched into darkness 6 times since I purchased it. It is Star Trek, people know that. We have the characters, we have the ship, the technology, the uniforms. Visually there is no mistake its Star Trek, so an original story for the third movie would be awesome. No more nods, no more copying aspects of past movies or episodes. Its like shoving something in someones face telling them what it is when they already know. These “nods” to previous trek in the movies are executed with great cheese and corn, its just going to piss off fans not make us smile or please us. Nod’s as they call it, are executed in the new movies for children, and are condescending to an adult. Sounds harsh but it is what it is. Aside from that, I loved the movies, I love the speedy action, especially because it is one aspect that is truly original, Star Trek has never been speedy action. We have never seen the TOS origin story, so that is also an original aspect using the familiar but NOT COPYING! But no more nod’s no more ripoffs of past trek.

Just a little critical. But Boborci, keep doing what you do, the movies are great and fun, I would not have purchased them in steelbook blu-ray and proudly display them on a shelf with my other Star Trek blu-rays if I did not think they were deserving…..if I did not think are Star Trek.

Klingon war, hmm never happened in Star Trek, so that would be original and fun lol….DO IT! Only a tease of nuKlingons in Into Darkness….I WANT MORE!!!!!!!

132. Oscar - September 22, 2013

I quote Glenn Greenberg:
«The screenwriters , along with returning director JJ Abrams,also display a distinct lack of understanding of who the main characters are. Their handling of Kirk is particularly appalling. In short, he’s an ass. He is portrayed as a sleazy, horndog who beds multiple alien women at the same time, and who seems to think that the only way to resolve a conflict is with his fist or a phaser pistol. Shatner’s Kirk was a ladies man, to be sure, but he was not a creep, and he was as much of a diplomat as he was explorer and military leader. This was a guy who could talk planet ruling computers into short circuiting themselves. Pine’s Kirk is a bruiser, a reckless, thickheaded know-it-all and real jerk as women are concerned.»

133. Curious Cadet - September 22, 2013

@132. Oscar,
“I quote Glenn Greenberg: «Their handling of Kirk is particularly appalling. … He is portrayed as a sleazy, horndog who beds multiple alien women at the same time, …and real jerk as women are concerned.»”

This is not really surprising now that Abrams is on record as viewing Kirk as a “womanizing character”.

134. Marcus - September 22, 2013

Within “Star Trek: the Original Series”, Kirk resorted to sex as an instrument of manipulation. Kirk did give into temptation on occasion; however, the majority of the time sex was used to manipulate a situation. Other words, there was context to the use of sex.

135. I am not Herbert - September 22, 2013

…call me an old fart, …’cause I don’t get it… (actually I DO, I just don’t like it)

BobOrci, JJ-verse, and Nu-Trek SUCK IMHO =(

Star Trek is not just broken… it is f*cked =(

…hopefully “Agents of SHIELD” on TV will be good! =)

136. I am not Herbert - September 22, 2013

http://www.agentsofshield.com/

137. Temple Fugate - September 22, 2013

That was a great interview. It’s refreshing to hear how much thought Orci and the rest of the staff put into their version, to give it justification and to make sure that at its core it reflected the values of Star Trek.

And on the other hand, it’s a little upsetting, because as I’m hearing Orci discuss the rationale behind their reboot, I wish that we got more dialogue that sounded so well-reasoned. The scripts for ST and STID are peppered with smart discussion, but so much of it is distorted and lost in the cacophony of special effects, chase sequences, and juvenile humor.

I enjoyed STID for its sub-surface elements, which is what Orci discusses in the interview. STID satisfied me in that regard, enough so that I could ignore the obvious flaws in the movie. Of course, I would have enjoyed it more if those elements were brought TO the surface.

If I had one serious suggestion to Mr. Orci for the next movie, it would be to not “decorate the Christmas Tree” so much and have more confidence in your audience’s attention span. You make a solid case for what kinds of Trek stories you want to write and the direction you want to develop the characters. You can always add fun bits of special effects and chases and juvenile humor, but they shouldn’t take center stage away from the core themes of the story. In some cases it can be as simple as letting the character moments have an extra minute to sink in before jumping to an action scene.

138. Mel - September 22, 2013

The podcast doesn’t work for me. I can’t play it. :-(

139. LizardGirl - September 22, 2013

@135

I heard Sleepy Hollow was good. ^_^

140. Curious Cadet - September 22, 2013

@126. TrekkieJan,
“But – Scotty’s line to explain that *came before his worry about Spock* – that didn’t even seem *a little* emotionally real to me.”

Scotty has always put the Enterprise ahead of his feelings for anybody or anything else. He’s a bit autistic this regard. I don’t think Scotty is bad, he’s just a little socially awkward. Kirk: “You hit the Klingons because they insulted the Enterprise, not because they [insulted your captain]?”. I don’t really see this as being that out of character with the way Doohan was written.

Before I go on, let me say you make some valid points, but despite your credentialed introduction, I don’t think you are being quite fair on some of the other points which follow:

————————
“He killed people to save his daughter? What kind of legacy did he leave her…? I didn’t believe it. Not for a moment. I didn’t sympathize because it never felt even a little real.”

Again, “what wouldn’t you do for your family?”. Its been discussed numerous times that Harewood weighed his innocent daughter’s life against his own, and that of the nefarious organization he was a part. Just as the audience came to understand Section 31 was corrupt, perhaps so too did Harewood. He had a choice to make, let his daughter die, or strike at a clandestine organization of questionable policies of which he was a part. He wouldn’t be the first person to equate the sins of the father suffered upon his children. Replace Harewood with Snowden, and I suspect a similar decision may have been made. The one problem I had with this scene is you don’t really understand why Harewood goes through with it, after his daughter has been saved. It’s understood Khan threatened their lives, but we don’t see it (a missed opportunity to showcase the irony that this is exactly what Marcus has done to Khan). And while I acknowledge at point in the movie the audience didn’t know about Section 31 to commiserate, I think the point remains — if you had to kill yourself and your co-workers to save your family, what would you do? I’m certain there are those who would do exactly what Harewood did. Indeed look at Al qaeda, whose members will indiscriminately bomb dozens of innocent people, in many cases because their families are being held hostage. It rings as true as the evening news.

————————
“Why did Khan put his people into live torpedoes…? Did he really think Admiral Marcus had killed them? ”

He put them in the torpedoes, because he was smuggling them out, but got caught. He should have come up with a smarter plan, and foreseen this eventuality, but otherwise it’s brilliant. They would have only stayed in the torpedoes long enough to get where Khan needed them to go. And yes, he thought Marcus had killed them, this is why he sought revenge. 72 supermen=42 Section 31 employees, and probably another 30 people at Starfleet headquarters. He could have blown up millions in the heart of London, but he didn’t.

————————
“after firing on the Star Fleet admirals – with no sign of security in sight … he flees to Quonos – where Marcus wants him. Marcus wants this war. But Khan turns….(again, I guessing here) when he learns Kirk has the torpedos. Did Khan think Kirk wouldn’t have the torpedos? What did he think he was making them for, if not the attack on Quonos? He says he thought Marcus had killed his people. If he truly thought his people were dead why did he have Kirk open the torpedoes?

Khan thought Marcus had killed his “family”, and he sought revenge and then refuge where Marcus couldn’t get him, and possibly a location where he might be able to enlist the Klingon’s help, for whatever the next phase of his plan was. Khan is genuinely surprised Kirk has the torpedoes, because he thought Marcus killed them. We don’t know the torpedoes would do anything Marcus said they would do. In fact Marcus counted on the torpedoes being traced back to the Enterprise so it too would be destroyed, so I wouldn’t expect Khan to know anything about them being used in this manner. And he had Kirk open the torpedoes to confirm he was telling the truth. Khan’s not an idiot. He figured there was a reason it was 72 torpedoes and not just a coincidence. Once he knew they were onboard, he figured out why — that’s how he was going to get rid of them and Khan, that he hadn’t killed them. Of course, Kirk could have opened the torpedoes and found empty chambers, or the dead bodies of Khan’s family — in fact that’s what he should have found … Marcus should have killed them in hibernation just in case they were discovered. That’s what you should be upset about, not whether Khan took a risk that he still had a chance to save his family.

I will say this, however. While the above was blatantly obvious to me, before Orci confirmed it as his intent, it is not my preferred interpretation. There are other plot holes involving the transwarp beaming, no security at starfleet, etc. that are solved when you assume Khan is being set-up by Marcus, and everything he did was by order of Marcus. Only when Kirk tells Khan about the 72 torpedoes does he realize this. Unfortunately, that undermines Orci’s intention for Khan to be a terrorist whose rationale can be empathized by the audience. Unfortunately that too goes out the window as soon as Orci turns him into a raging sociopath bent on mass genocide of inferior beings.

————————
“Kirk’s mentor died – another thing that felt kind of pointless and wasted to me ”

It was Kirk’s motivation to check his brain at the door and go after Khan. Pointless, maybe but motivational. What else would have cause Kirk to become so emotionally invested in apprehending Khan, to the point of killing him from orbit? Perhaps instead of Pike it could have been his brother Sam, who was destined to die anyway. But the audience didn’t know his brother Sam. Pike they knew and presumably the connection would resonate.

There’s all kinds of things for you to be upset about in STID, but the points you make are clearly delineated on screen. Perhaps you don’t agree with them, but they are perfectly valid from a story-telling perspective.

141. Oscsr - September 22, 2013

137
Sub surfaces elements in STID? Where?
I quote Matt Zoller /Chicago Sun Times/:
«STID is one of the most aggressively selfconscious summer blockbuster ever made»
A.O.Scott/New York Times/:
«Maybe it is to late to lament the militarization of STAR TREK, but in his pursuit of blockbuster currency, Mr. Abrams has sacrificed a lot of its idiosincrasy and, worse, the large-spirited humanism that sustained it.

142. Russell Meyers - September 22, 2013

141 Amen. Only by completely turning a 180 and making JJ3 a beacon of Humanism and dripping with accurate science and Sci-fi will these writers win me back.

143. Oscar - September 22, 2013

140.
Come on, curious cadet, you can not save such a mess, sorry.
I quote Lou Lumenick, New York Post:
«The only harkness here is the murky plot, which is as silly as it is arbitrary»
Devin Faraci: «STID falls apart as it goes, raining debris as it implodes like a building being demolished»

144. NCC-73515 - September 22, 2013

>>This, says Orci, is the rationale behind Starfleet being called a “peace-keeping armada” in Trek ’09.<<

Thing is, it's not Starfleet, but the Federation that is being called an armada…

I would really like to know how they came up with life support being behind the aft nacelle XD It's like deck 29 in Nemesis – open space.

145. TrekkieJan - September 22, 2013

@140 Curious Cadet: Thank you for taking the time and trouble to reply.

I don’t agree with all of your points – its true, in comedic episodes such as Trouble with Tribbles (your example) Scotty is presented this way. But he’s normally pretty high functioning in other episodes and quite concerned for the crew. (That said, he’s frequently presented as whatever sort of person that writer needed him to be that week. It’s James Doohan’s performance that gave him any consistency.)

Your other example – Pike had to die to motivate Kirk? Is pretty backwards characterization. It least it wasn’t a girl in the fridge, though, right?

I appreciate people trying to puzzle sense out of the plot – I think, in different iterations of the script they all probably worked, albeit maybe not together. In the final filmed script, they simply don’t.

146. Mr. X - September 22, 2013

The last two Star Trek movies were an insult to the trekker community.
This writers are so poor of ideas, like the rest of Hollywood.

147. Norpolis - September 22, 2013

Yes, we do want the 3rd film to have more new elements and be unpredicatble. We want “STAR TREK” in those literal words.

BUT…we also want the old stuff sprinkled in as well as more Trek content. We want Star Trek to be sophisticated.

One thing I did notice on a STID behind the scenes video, the ships plaque says U.S.S. Enterprise A Starship Class. It’s not a Starship Class. It’s a Constitution Class. We want the writers to pay attention to the details. All they need to do is open the Star Trek Encyclopedia to make sure they are writing stuff correctly.

148. Keachick - September 22, 2013

Another thing I got from the interview was Bob Orci’s appeal to people on how they use the internet, as in, if there is something someone feels need saying, do so on the internet. I do not believe, for a minute, he meant vitriolic trolling etc, but use it as a means of communicating ideas in an intelligent manner.

He also said that we should do it while we still can – something about the internet being taken over…. Perhaps Bob is allowing his own unsubstantiated worries and fears to surface here or maybe he is seeing frighteningly real trends occurring…

On another thread, a poster recently linked an article which talked about how people can behave on the internet. The anonymity that the internet provides has given many people the opportunity to behave like real f*cktards sometimes and even take on a different personality – alter-ego kind of stuff. Interesting.

As for me, it never really occurred to me to be other than me, Rosemary, who chooses to use the pseudonym Keachick (occasionally adding rose pinenut if/when the desire takes me), because keas are beautiful alpine parrots found only here in the country of my birth and birds who defy the common understanding of what “bird brain” means. It is always me saying what I think, understand, desire, not want, love, don’t like and, yes, sometimes I can seem contradictory.

The internet has given me an opportunity to express ideas and concepts that have meaning to me and maybe mean *good* things to others. At times, I may have seen an article and pictures of Chris Pine and a picture or two just reminds of what a beautiful looking man he is. I express that. He is the actor who now plays my very favourite captain and it is wonderful… Sometimes I am tired, frustrated, angry, annoyed and yes, (clinically) depressed and often that gets expressed as well. I try to express it all in such a way as to convey my ideas and intent, without being rude or nasty.

I am sorry if I have not been successful always, but anyone who knows me also must realize that I tend to shovel back what has been shoveled at me, for better or worse…I guess I am a kind of mirror and there are times when I do need to give my mirror a good clean to enable me to see more clearly so as not to perhaps make some (egregious) error.

Once again, thank you, Bob Orci.

149. P Technobabble - September 22, 2013

I’m probably way outta line but I think it’s time to let go of the past and just think about the future. What’s done is done and all that…
I’m usually not much into speculation but I think it’s time to lighten up and have some fun wondering about the next film, rather than beating a dead parrot for the next few years.

Question #1: how important is it REALLY (to the studio, the producers, etc.) to get the film released for Trek’s anniversary? Will it be just another movie to make, or will it mean enough to those involved that they’ll treat it as something special. I know that having the movie come out in time for the anniversary has been talked about but talking isn’t gonna make it happen.
Question #2: who’s gonna direct this thing? Think Rupert Wyatt’s a sure bet? Is that what JJ is telling us by endorsing Wyatt?
Question #3 (the big one): what’s the movie gonna be about? There is a pretty big call from fans and detractors alike for the next movie to be a full-blown, yet thoughtful, sci-fi space adventure that doesn’t rely on past Treks or the usual bad-guy villain. Didn’t Bob Orci hint that they have a story in place — or an idea anyway? Think that story/idea begins with: “The Enterprise enters an unknown quadrant of space… where no one has ever gone before…?”

150. Vultan - September 22, 2013

Damage control.

151. Curious Cadet - September 22, 2013

@145. TrekkieJan,
” It’s James Doohan’s performance that gave him any consistency.”

You could be right about that. Perhaps Tribbles colored my impression of Scotty for the entire series. I recall he was pretty focused on the engines during the Galileo 7 when everyone else was pretty broken up about the dead crewmen. Then again, he seemingly abandoned engineering to bring his injured nephew to the bridge in TWOK (talk about bad writing). Nevertheless, I could also make an argument for Scotty trying to lighten the situation, before delivering the somber news, as people often inappropriately do. Needless to say it didn’t bother me.

————————
” Pike had to die to motivate Kirk? Is pretty backwards characterization.”

This I don’t really follow. It’s a pretty common theme: Luke is going to remain a farmer until the Empire murders his aunt and uncle, despite what else they’ve done to others.

152. Marja - September 22, 2013

118 Colin, I’m sorry you feel that way. As I have had to do as one who likes the movies and went through months of people assuming I’m stupid and vacuous and not a Star Trek fan I would ask you “How does it feel” but I don’t want to be an asshat about it.

Continue voicing your opinions, please. You are not among the “haters;” I’ve agreed with some of your comments [I suppose that shows I'm a lover with divided loyalties!] and read most of them with interest, because you have relevant and often very valid things to say.

I do, however, skip on down past the folks who say stuff like, “ST is frikked” and “I hate it” and “JJ su*ks!” I mean, I suppose it’s valid as a point of view, even though it’s one I don’t agree with, but are folks really too tired, angry, or impatient to discuss why, with reasoned arguments?

I could say all day “I love Spock and Uhura as a couple” but unless I explain why, most people will blow that off if they don’t agree. If I make a persuasive argument for why I love them together, that is a little better.

153. Marja - September 22, 2013

113 Sid, I could go with that. I would have much preferred if Khan and Kirk had worked together to defeat Marcus … and THEN – after Kirk takes Vengeance in tow or whatever, turned on the Enterprise crew, but in a more elegant and less savage way. A game of wits. But that doesn’t hit the Summer Tentpole marks. I def could’ve done without “KHAAAANNN!” A ridiculous and moment-spoiling moment. Quinto did bring emotional power to it, but … wow. Lame scripting moment.

[But then there would be no "Run Spock Run!" and "kickass Spock" scene ... hmmmm]

I’m still under the impression, possibly erroneously, that Orci was resisting the idea of “Khan” and Lindelof, et.al. said, “It’d be neat to put him in there!”

It makes no sense, script-wise or audience-wise. It PO’d old time Star Trek fans, it puzzled general audiences, and the new fans couldn’t care less. Isss a puzzlement!

154. Martin - September 22, 2013

STAR TREK 3 MOVIE PLOT

The Klingons are at the verge of starting all out war against the federation, plus the subspace signal sent by the borg in star trek enterprise ‘regeneration’ would take 200 years to reach the borg in the delta quadrant ’24th century TNG ERA’ but when Nero’s ship came through the black hole and changed the past the borgs subspace signal could have traveled faster ‘like a message in a bottle on a tidal wave’
which means the borg will come very soon.

Most likely the forth star trek film.

Kirk and crew celebrate there 5 year mission into deep space
meanwhile as the Klingons attack the federation………

A powerful god Q or Trelane
could play kirk and his crew at a game ‘to test if he is ready for what awaits’ and put all his crew in embarrassing amusing and dangerous situations sending the enterprise across different points in the galaxy coming into contact with many dangerous alien races new and old such as THE BORG in the delta quadrant or the DOMINION in the gamma quadrant or the doomsday machine or traveling to points in time like ‘the guardian’ and many more etc etc…….

some red shirts get killed ‘good god man save them’ says McCoy and Q/Trelane responds ‘if you can’t take a bloody nose maybe you should crawl under your bed’

Kirk could steel advanced alien technology along his travels to help defeat the Klingons ‘that’s if Q/Trelane sends them back’ until kirk begs so he can stop all out war with the Klingons.

What tricks will kirk have up his sleeve or will Q/Trelane save them.

155. Marja - September 22, 2013

116 daystrom, Is it possible Orci sounds humble right now because his job is on the line? IDK.

I found his justifications for Khan and the Kirk womanizing and the UNDIES! scenes unconvincing, but his love of Star Trek came through in the interview.

[I can see Kirk "celebrating" with a willing woman. I can see him doing a mutually respectful "one-weekend" thing b/c he's more devoted to the Enterprise than to having a steady relationship - this was well established in TOS. (And surely there will be women partners with similar agendas who don't want permanent relationships either.) He had respectful relationships with Edith Keeler - began to get to know Lenore Karidian - had a "past affair" friendship with Areel Shaw - but I point out these were all in the best-written season, Season One.]

Now if Orci and Kurtzman [and a SciFi writer, please, please] can put together a solid ST3 script with some “breathing room,” philosophy, trio-and-quartet stuff, good character moments, and gen-you-wine science fiction moments – without “hitting the marks” with so much Summer Tentpole massive destruction trash – I will be truly truly happy. I am quite sure they are capable of doing better.

156. Phil - September 22, 2013

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/09/20/everything-wrong-with-star-trek-into-darkness_n_3959940.html

157. Marja - September 22, 2013

145 and 148 [TrekkieJan and Curious]
Curious: “You could be right about [Doohan's performance was the only thing keeping Scotty consistent as a character]. Perhaps Tribbles colored my impression of Scotty for the entire series. I recall he was pretty focused on the engines during the Galileo 7 when everyone else was pretty broken up about the dead crewmen. Then again, he seemingly abandoned engineering to bring his injured nephew to the bridge in TWOK (talk about bad writing). Nevertheless, I could also make an argument for Scotty trying to lighten the situation, before delivering the somber news, as people often inappropriately do. Needless to say it didn’t bother me.”

“Tribbles” is a comedic episode and amps up everyone’s characterizations for the comic effect. I loved Scotty in that episode. But I also loved him in Galileo 7. He was concentrating on his job, being Engineer. It wasn’t that he had no concern for outside events such as the junior officers’ deaths, it was that Scotty was doing everything he could to get them off that rock as soon as he could. He was working out solutions. When he did take time to discuss his progress with Spock and the emotional young officer was insubordinate and outright insulting to Spock, he called the officer to order. Then he went on with his job. Entrusted with the conn of the Enterprise, he was stalwart and considered, an officer who was faithful and thoughtful.

In the new movies, Scotty has a more humorous bent, but he’s always concerned about the ship, Starfleet ethics, and is a good officer. I loved Pegg’s portrayal of him in STiD, especially the line, “Just give me two seconds, ye mad bastard” under his breath! I just knew that’s what TOS Scotty must have been thinking at times, but never said out loud.

158. geodesic17 - September 22, 2013

Bob Orci: Star Trek does legal drama well. Remember Measure of a Man? Maybe Shatner can play a Denny Crane descendent instead of a version of Kirk.

As a fan, I think many other fans have difficulty judging these movies on their own merits. I can make myself dislike any movie by comparing it to an idealized, personalized, fan fiction story in my head.

We got two solid Star Trek action movies. More sci-fi would be great.

159. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - September 22, 2013

Hey Bob Orci. In the next movie keep it fresh and real and throw a lot of curves at us. With Kirk,Spock and McCoy at the center of it. Then you will make all Trek Fans and non Trek fans very happy and of course make twice the money as the first two.

160. Marja - September 22, 2013

151 Martin, Oh dear me no. I hope we will NOT see Q, Borg, or much else from TOS/TNG. I am afraid, with the buildup in the first two movies, we will be seeing Klingons, but I hope we won’t.

An original story. Please.

161. Colin - September 22, 2013

I watch that video listing what was wrong about Star Trek: Into Darkness, and I read the comments that people after that post.

Someone suggested above that people who joined Al-Queda did so because their families were held hostage and that they committed acts of terrorism to help their families. This is garbage. I read the 9-11 report. The men who did that terrible act were from the middle class, were highly educated, and believed that their job prospects were bleak. In their anger and frustration, they turned to an organization which gave them a home and a purpose. Their families weren’t held hostage during their enlisting and indoctrination phase.

As someone living in the post-911 world, there were so many aspects of the film that felt wrong. The most noticeable for me was the location of the emergency session. Again, from reading the 9-11 report, and from reading history, military and political leaders in a crisis DO NOT meet in a skyscraper conference room that has glass that can be shattered by weapons fire. They meet in a secured bunker-like room. If the writers wanted to have this scenario, we have historical precedents on how a bombing could be achieved. In 1944, a German general left a briefcase at a meeting with Chancellor Hitler, which injured him and killed several people. Of course, this would require Mission: Impossible theatrics, but in a futuristic setting, I believe it could be pulled off.

I would have added to the video’s list the flight path of the Vengeance. Why that path? At the time of the movie, it didn’t make sense to me. I was under the impression from watching past Trek that Starfleet Headquarters was located at the Presidio. So, for me, his flight path would never have a chance of hitting the structure. Later, I learned from a map of the San Francisco Bay and a directory for STFL HQ that it was located on Second Street. It would have been nice if they mentioned that vocally in the movie.

As for this NuTrek, so much of it deviates from the Old Trek that I am now believing that the actual deviation began much earlier than the stated 2233. Looking at San Francisco, I am thinking that the city we saw in “Enterprise”, set in the 2150s, must have suffered a massive calamity which saw the destruction of the entire city, save for a few areas, and the loss of the Bay Bridge. In the aftermath of that calamity, the city was rebuilt with massive skyscrapers, a large industrial park, and the location of Starfleet was moved from the Presidio to a point just west of where the Bay Bridge once stood.

162. Marja - September 22, 2013

141 Oscar, This NYTimes reviewer has a great, great point: “A.O.Scott/New York Times/:
«Maybe it is to late to lament the militarization of STAR TREK, but in his pursuit of blockbuster currency, Mr. Abrams has sacrificed a lot of its idiosincrasy and, worse, the large-spirited humanism that sustained it.”

Key words: “in pursuit of blockbuster currency” …

This is the problem with releasing ST in the middle of the Summer Blockbuster season. Trek is more suited to a Fall release when there is less demand to satisfy teenaged boys, when adults come to see thoughtful movies [I look forward to "Gravity" in October].

I think Paramount decided to try this Summer release thing with Star Trek and hired Abrams, who is a top-notch action director. The films were considered action films – a mistake in the view of many here on TrekMovie.

While Orci says “Blame us [writers], don’t blame the evil studio,” I think part of his job is to deflect criticism of the financial decisions of the studio that employs him. I’m not going to assume he’s lying, but it’s a very grey area to me.

I’ve said it before: Star Trek should not be a Summer Blockbuster. It should be a delightful sci-fi action/adventure, emphasis on sci-fi and adventure. Alas, action has taken over to the point where we get meaningful dialog for about 3 out of each 15 minutes.

163. Colin - September 22, 2013

There is an unresolved contradiction. On one hand, the head of international distribution at Paramount stated that the studio did focus groups and that these groups had an influence on the direction of this film. On the other hand, Bob Orci said that there were no focus groups and, thus, there was no influence by these groups on the film’s direction.

164. Vultan - September 22, 2013

#158

Well put, Marja.

165. Me - September 22, 2013

“You can’t watch Miley Cyrus on the VMA’s and not be confused about the state of feminism today.” Zing. Best observation on that event that I’ve heard.

166. SolitaryJustice - September 22, 2013

You think we could talk Bob Orci into writing a post-credits scene with Whoopi Goldberg on the new Enterprise looking at Kirk and company and simply saying “something is wrong here.”? Segway for an awesome series. Just saying… if anyone wants to help me get this series off the ground, shoot me an email.

167. Bob Mack - September 22, 2013

I’m not trying to be a hater, but Bob Orci’s attempts to say that he is listening to the fans and that he and the writers are fixing things for the fans sound like excuses to me. The “fixes” are cosmetic at best and embarassing at worst.

Your “fan fixes” point by point:

1) You addressed Kirk’s quick ascension? Seriously? Kirk is a yo-yo which is NOT a better situation than being promoted too quickly. Let him be the Captain. Don’t apologize for it.

2) You addressed the engineering/brewery but you shot much of engineering in the brewery. Again. The Livermore lab looked kinda cool. The brewery not so much.

3) You addressed the trifecta by having Bones in there? Bones did nothing but run after everyone else. He was a throw away character in STID.

4) You gave Scotty meat to chew on? He walked away and quit! Kirk’s disbelief at his quitting only mirrored that of the audience. That’s meat? Over torpedoes? There were torpedoes on the ship when he signed on to begin with. It was a device to get Scotty off the ship and a poor one at that.

Bottom line, Bob Orci – if you believe in what you wrote just stand behind it. Don’t explain it away by saying you did it for the fans. Especially when you say you fixed something that didn’t really get fixed. You’re just discreetly passing the blame onto the fans and some of us aren’t ready to get pissed on and told that it’s raining.

168. shapeshiftinglizard - September 22, 2013

I don’t know how anyone on this site could say that Orci didn’t engage and listen to the fans when he’s got literally probably over a thousand interactions with us here over a 5 year period in which he was clearly reading what was said and responding.

169. K-7 - September 22, 2013

@162. Why don’t you go F yourself. That is what I think of your post, jackass.

170. mike - September 22, 2013

The interviewer had such a rare opportunity, but wastes it by using bad and poorly thought out questions. He isn’t getting into their minds.

171. Li'l Shat - September 22, 2013

@162 Bob Mack:

You hater! lol

But seriously, you wrote “1) You addressed Kirk’s quick ascension? Seriously? Kirk is a yo-yo which is NOT a better situation than being promoted too quickly.”

This is one of the things that most annoys me about Orci’s claims. They ‘addressed’ Kirk’s ascension from cadet to captain in the first film by dropping him back to cadet and rapidly ascending him to captain all over again.

172. Marcus - September 22, 2013

162. Bob Mack,

Here is another one for your list…

When Kirk and company went after Khan on Qo’nos, they dressed in disguises and used Mudd’s shuttle. Premise was – if they ended up causing a problem, the incident would not be traced back to the Federation.

Do you know what Sulu did? While Kirk and company were on route, Sulu broadcasts to the planet that a shuttle with Federation officers were on the way. rofl…

173. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - September 22, 2013

@Bob Mack

Wow, so Bob Orci is taking a leak all over all of us fans?

Nice! :-(

Marcus and Lil Shat,

Congratulations on enabling this troll. :-(

174. Lemingsworth Bint - September 22, 2013

Star Trek should not be a tiny little thing that barely makes its money back. No future in that.

175. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - September 22, 2013

Interesting how this Bob Mack guy gets to insult Roberto Orci with his “piss” comments, but I am not allowed to post something in response???

176. Garak's Pride - September 22, 2013

All,

Do we really need to make comments concerning Bob Orci peeing all over us, and then responding with F-Bombs, etc.

This is really getting out of hand.

Bob Mack, you kind of started this. Maybe you should retract that rather gross and completely inappropriate remark?

Keep it clean, people!

177. Red Shirt Diaries - September 22, 2013

Bob Mack: “I’m not trying to be a hater.”

That’s right up there with “some of my best friends are (insert race) people.”

178. windelkin - September 22, 2013

I have to side with PaulB and all the nitpickers out here. I think everyone is entitled to an opinion and we’re all amatuer movie reviewers in this new era, so nitpicking is going to happen, especially when there are such obvious blunders. It’s ok, K-7. You can let it go and not respond if you disagree with someone. I can’t believe people take it so personally when the movie and the makers get a little criticism. It’s just art! Of course, I respect your right to criticise the critics as well, but can’t we all just get along here? I’m only saying this cause I get tired of reading post after post of arguing about each others posts. It’s tedious. Ok, I’m done, goodnight!

179. Marcus - September 22, 2013

Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle, Red Shirt Diaries, Garak’s Pride, K-7

Are you guys sixteen years old or something?

180. Dave in RI - September 22, 2013

147. Norpolis – September 22, 2013
…”One thing I did notice on a STID behind the scenes video, the ships plaque says U.S.S. Enterprise A Starship Class. It’s not a Starship Class. It’s a Constitution Class. We want the writers to pay attention to the details. All they need to do is open the Star Trek Encyclopedia to make sure they are writing stuff correctly.”

To be fair, the writers technically got that right. In the book “The Making of Star Trek” in one of Gene Roddenberry’s printed memos, he refers to the Enterprise as “a Starship Class Heavy Cruiser”. It was only years later that the Enterprise is referred to as “a Constitution Class Starship”.

181. Dave H - September 22, 2013

Wow, now some people are saying Orci is peeing on us?

Huh???

182. Dave H - September 22, 2013

@179 “Are you guys sixteen years old or something?”

Well this Bob Mack guy was the one with the “pissing” reference. I guess he would be about an 11-year old then by your reasoning. LOL

183. K-7 - September 22, 2013

FYI. The numbers are changed now, but my earlier post was intended for Bob “Golden Showers” Mack.

184. Blue Thunder - September 22, 2013

And the fan debate war over Star Trek Into Darkness still continues….

Folks, the Abrams films are set in an alternate timeline. It’s going to be different from the original timeline. The characters are going to act different in some ways.

It’s no different than the opposite actions of the Mirror Universe characters. Did any fans complain then? No they didn’t.

Seriously, this constant bickering and infighting between fans just saps the fun out what has made Star Trek so special all these years.

185. We served together. - September 22, 2013

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57604014-71/william-shatners-fear-of-flying-keeps-him-off-virgin-galactic/

Branson getting free publicity for his space enterpise.

186. Red Dead Ryan - September 22, 2013

#179. Marcus.

“Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle, Red Shirt Diaries, Garak’s Pride, K-7

Are you guys sixteen years old or something?”

Hey Einstein, did you read this?

Bob Mack: “You’re just discreetly passing the blame onto the fans and some of us aren’t ready to get pissed on and told that it’s raining.”

Yes, your cohorts here are resorting to childish metaphors to put down Bob Orci. Read posts by Cygnus-X1 others here for more.

I would say then, that Bob Mack and co. are acting like ten year old spoiled brats who are throwing a tantrum simply because Bad Robot didn’t make a Trek film specifically for them.

187. Ben - September 22, 2013

I for one LOVED the Wrath of Khan death scene homage. And I completely bought it even though I had read spoilers and knew the magic blood stuff that was coming up. The thing that sold me on that scene is where Kirk and Spock say that what they were doing was what the other one would have done. So as Bob pointed out, we get the gift of seeing how the other one would have dealt with that situation, which was awesome!! The part where Spock learns that Kirk is his friend and the whole thing comes together harmoniously with the Wrath of Khan like Bob mentioned was the other thing that sold that scene to me. I did not come away thinking it was a cheap rip-off, but as an awesome re-imagining of that scene. That is just me though, perhaps I am too sophisticated.

188. Ash - September 23, 2013

@20 MAD Mann

“I’m telling you, they are going to hit the next one out of the park. With no Lindelof and w/o Abrams directing, the stupid jokes will decrease and it will feel more like a real science-fiction movie. Orci is going full sci-fi. He his going to develop Bones more into the Spock-Kirk-McCoy that we know from TOS.”

God I hope so! Fingers crossed they get it right this time!

189. Marshall - September 23, 2013

I’d like something original, with an original villain and hey, why not actually go exploring some planets too?? I want to see the main crew members get some real individual growth, not just Kirk and Spock. Although I realize those two and their relationship are most important, we have 6 other characters to explore. Especially Bones.

And can we knock off the Spock and Uhura BS already? Hearing her whine at her VULCAN boyfriend about being emotionally withheld during a freaking mission was the last straw. As if sucking face on the transporter wasn’t bad enough. I get it, some people need romance and drama. Go watch a soap opera, I’d prefer my Spock to not be an some emo who has to double check that his GFs feelings are ok before he saves a planet from destruction. I’d like my Uhura not to seem like a needy, high schooler who will disobey her Captain when he tries to tell her to can it and save it and, oh I don’t know, maybe concentrate on the mission at hand? Not that Kirk was any better just rolling over when she said no. It’s like second hand embarrassment watching those scenes.

Also, can we bring Pike back? Please? He was awesome and Bruce Greenwood was amazing playing him. I wish he hadn’t been killed off.

190. Crewman Darnell - September 23, 2013

@187 Marshall

For what it’s worth, I agree with all of your points.

In my own opinion, there’s nothing wrong with hoping for the bar to be raised on the writer who follows up on the dubious STID plot with embarrassingly self-aggrandizing comments like: “Star Trek has called me, and I’m going to serve.”

Ready when you are, Mr. Orci.

191. Christopher Roberts - September 23, 2013

Maybe the next Star Trek can reveal John Harrison’s identity wasn’t Khan at all.

192. Aurore - September 23, 2013

Here is one of the reasons why, in my opinion, people can only speak for themselves when giving their opinion on any movie :

“…Completely miscast…They were trying to go for a very intellectual…A threatening intellectual type of vilain and he [ Mr. Cumberbatch ] nailed that…That is exceptionally hard to nail…Again, reboot, I get that. But, at the same time, he looks nothing like a guy… who would be named Khan…. Forget Ricardo Montalbán. When you think of a guy named Khan…you don’t think of Benedict Cumberbatch. You don’t think of a British guy…Actually, I think Benedict Cumberbatch is a more offensive choice ; he’s a white guy! You know…etc…” :

(If the management approves of it I could provide a link to the opinion/review.).

The gentleman I quoted above thought Star Trek Into Darkness “fixed the plot holes” he “hated” about the first movie [ Star Trek ( 2009 ) ] . It is safe to say he was satisfied with the sequel… Which did not prevent him from noticing that the white terrorist in it had a name evoking…”otherness.”

Thus, when it comes to Star Trek Into Darkness, I guess it is possible to make observations [ which might be deemed inconvenient ( by some)], without being a… “hater”…

P.S. : I was not convinced by any of the explanations given by Mr. Orci regarding the “Khan question” on previous threads, and, said so at the time. Obviously, I do not like some of the “creative” choices made for the sequel. However, speaking for myself, expressing concerns about some of the decisions made is possible without resorting to namecalling etc…

193. Cygnus-X1 - September 23, 2013

126. TrekkieJan – September 22, 2013

I enjoyed reading your post and agree with all of it, apart from your having been less annoyed than I by what they did with Khan in STID. After learning that Khan would probably be in the movie, I actually made a deliberate effort to maintain an open mind. Some people here had come up with intriguing ideas for a new Khan story, and I had really enjoyed the whole “Augment” story in ST:Enterprise. I’d found the Augment premise very fertile ground for new stories, and had become curious and excited at the prospect of STID doing a Khan story which related to the Augment premise. Obviously Orci & Kurtzman didn’t do that, and obviously I did not like what they did instead…to say the least.

194. Oscar - September 23, 2013

184.
I quote David Mack:
«And do not try to hand wave this stupidity away with excuses like «it is an alternate universe» or «the time travel of the Narada changed that». This kind of crap just boil down to the writer not giving a damn about remainig consistent with any of the 40 years of the that had been done on the franchise before they come a Long»

195. Janice - September 23, 2013

Well, I may have missed it, but what about Pike’s death?? Whose idea was that? That was the thing I hated about STID. If Mr orci addressed the killing of Pike—then I missed it and will have to listen to the interview again.

196. Cygnus-X1 - September 23, 2013

To revisit the previous thread, it is looking increasingly like Star Trek belongs on TV with perhaps just the occasional feature film, especially in the current state of Hollywood movie-making. Over the course of a TV season, you can tell many stories which do not involve saving the Earth from certain doom, major characters being killed off and planets being destroyed in order to get a general audience invested in the story and have a premise for plenty of action and explosions.

ST:Voyager, though it had no shortage of flaws, had the virtue of being set so far away from Earth that the “saving the Earth” story was very rarely used. ST:Enterprise had a season devoted to a war with an alien species bent on destroying the Earth, and DS9 had two such seasons, but both series had plenty of good stories to tell amidst those seasonal and bi-seasonal story arcs. Many of these stories were premised upon the seasonal “war” arc, but dealt with specific issues related in some way to war. And some of those were quite poignant and meaningful.

The point being, expectations for a sci-fi movie (though there’s almost no science in BR’s Trek) these days—lots of action, explosions and most likely the Earth facing certain doom—are at odds with the thoughtful, meaningful, socially-relevant, morals-challenging stories that Star Trek has principally been about since 1966. Star Trek has always been more thoughtful and dramatic in tone than what today’s Hollywood movie-making culture is looking to do. A return to TV with the occasional feature film as a sort of grand finale to a series, season or story arc would seem the way to go at this point.

197. Cygnus-X1 - September 23, 2013

P.S.

A good example is how “Serenity” served as a grand finale to the “Firefly” TV series. Though it was obviously unconventional coming 5 years after a cancelled series, the feature film did a good job of wrapping up loose ends and resolving the big mystery presented in the TV series involving the Reevers. Resolving that mystery made for an exciting plot, well-suited to a feature film, with plenty of action and so forth, while also being meaningful and satisfying to fans of the series. Something along those lines with a Trek series could be really awesome.

198. Oscar - September 23, 2013

197.
A good example is Oblivion, too. Very good, and, true, science fiction movie. Full of trek feeling.

199. falcon - September 23, 2013

Nice to see comments are being moderated now. Too bad you can’t use Disqus to see when someone has responded to your comment.

Now, to my comment: Bob (and I know you watch these forums), why did you delete your Twitter account over all of this hoopla? This is just a movie, and so what if the fans get all worked up over it? It’s not like it’s Congressional budget negotiations or anything like that. :-) Grow a little thicker skin, buddy. You know Trek fans are the most fickle in the universe – you are one yourself, so just tell your stories and if the fans don’t like it, they don’t have to buy a ticket.

Just so ya know, my wife liked STID. And she’s had to put up with my Trekkiness for 30 years, so she knows a bit about Trek. So there’s that.

200. Marcus - September 23, 2013

197. Cygnus-X1 & 198. Oscar,
If “Star Trek” can pull itself from a twenty year hiatus, the future of “Serenity” looks very-very bright. “Star Trek: TOS” was considered a failure, and its fans proved there was room for “Star Trek: TNG”.

201. Marcus - September 23, 2013

186. Red Dead Ryan,

After he made that one statement, the four of you become serious drama queens. You guys made it sound like the world had ended. I do not know what is worse – “Star Trek” fans that are too purist, or “Star Trek” fans that are so desperate to keep the series alive. Both are whinny.

202. Jemini - September 23, 2013

now that’s one nice photo you have here, Orci. ;)

189. Marshall -

LOL everytime I read variations of this comment everything I can think about is that to me Uhura actually seems the most balanced one there especially if compared to Kirk and Spock and their supposed “professionality”
In fact there seem to be a pattern in the Spock/Uhura/Kirk dynamic in that Uhura is the one that stopped both of them when they were acting unprofessional and almost killed Khan. Especially in Kirk’s case, her “captain!” truly was “you’re the captain wtf you’re doing? this is not the protocol we didn’t get here to kill him!”
the scene where Kirk is beating Harrison makes me uncomfortable While I understand why he felt like that (and I really do. Man I would have done the same thing maybe. He killed the only father figure he ever had), in context what I see is a captain acting like that with a prisoner that isn’t even trying to defend himself. A prisoner that had saved him and his crew previously.
If in real life a police officer does that with someone that he’s arrested, what would you say about said police officer?
That scene and, in a way what Spock did later too, are biggest examples of the characters failing at being professional good officers than a scene where Uhura is arguing with her boyfriend or Kirk is gossiping with her, while on duty, about how said boyfriend pissed him off. There are things that you can still understand if you remember that this is not a reality show about the army and that these people are supposed to be friends as well as being co-workers.

Of course the male characters always get a free pass for their repeated unprofessional moments – call me surprised – but one single moment with Uhura complaining about her suicidal boyfriend is a scandal and suddenly makes her the most unprofessional of them all LOL It’s not like her boyfriend didn’t seem to have a death wish and, if you read the comics, his behavior couldn’t have negatively compromised even the mission at hand.

It seems I’m not the only one that noticed this double standard. Here’s a funny comment I read the other day over tumblr:

Spock and Kirk get frustrated with each other and get into a heated argument in front of their commanding officer, an admiral.

Kirk gets frustrated and gets into a heated argument with his commanding officer, an admiral.

Scotty gets frustrated with Starfleet’s weapons policies, gets into a very public argument with his commanding officer, and then yells that he’s quitting.

Spock gets frustrated (holy understatement, Batman) because Kirk is killed and leaves the freaking ship right after it nearly crashed to go smack a d..k.

Uhura gets frustrated with Spock for being a reckless b..tt and gets into an argument with him in the shuttle — an argument that Kirk quickly joins in on.

And somehow … .

“Ugh, Uhura is so unprofessional!”

LOL
both Kirk and Spock outrank her, so instead of participating in the argument themselves (“she’s right” “that’s not a love song spock”) they would have stopped it as soon as it started.
But I don’t remember Kirk reporting her (how he could? he’s the same that while on duty told her that he wanted to rip the bangs off her boyfriend’s head ) so IDK what to tell you guys aside from.. stop projecting?
Because it becomes projecting when you judge the characters about what you think they “should” do according to imaginary “rules” broken only in your mind but not in the universe of the story itself. .
Like, how many times will people say that S/U are being unprofessional because they have a personal relationship, before they realize that there is no such rule against crew mates dating one another – and when all is said and done the original series pointed up that they CAN have relationships indeed. e.g.; Balance of Terror

In any case, I think a mix of both a doylist and watsonian approach to canon is most likely is the best option when judging a story e.g.; that argument between S/U: from a watsonian perspective it would have been better for them to do that not in front of Kirk but from a doylist perspective, the scene had to happen in front of their captain because the character in question was having a similar misunderstanding with Spock so it was very important for him too to hear what the latter said to his girlfriend. In that case the scene served two purposes: resolve the argument between S/U and to have him finally tell her that the truth is that he cares too much for her plus give to the audience an insight about Spock as a character (especially in terms of what happened to vulcan and him in the other movie) AND also let Kirk get an insight into Spock’s perspective about some things – that he wouldn’t have gotten without Uhura- S/U relationship’s “help”, so to speak.

203. Jemini - September 23, 2013

91. Dave H – September 21, 2013

@84

I hear you S/U — in general, I agree.

But man, if we ever get to the point where Spock, Kirk, Uhura and Carol are playing a game of fracking Bridge in 10-Foward, with little “David” Kirk and “baby Tuvoc” playing on the floor around then…that is when I will check out.

:-)

————————–

I love Tuvok but I remember someone saying that Spock/Uhura’s child is Barack Obama LOL!

204. TrekkieJan - September 23, 2013

@151 Curious Cadet:

Re: James Doohan in Troubles with Tribbles: “You could be right about that. Perhaps Tribbles colored my impression of Scotty for the entire series.”

I don’t think you’d be alone there, CC. The cast turned out to be extraordinary with comedy and *Troubles with Tribbles* is loved – even though, I believe I’ve read, Roddenberry and others did not think it was very Trek. Interesting, yes?

————————

Re: Pike’s death to motivate Kirk: “This I don’t really follow. It’s a pretty common theme: Luke is going to remain a farmer until the Empire murders his aunt and uncle, despite what else they’ve done to others.”

Well, Luke was already pretty restless, as I recall. Something was going to get him off that farm. It happened to be Stormtroopers.

I’ll try to explain backwards characterization (or plot rather than character based drama): The writers need the hero to be here, doing something, so this has to happen. It’s sort of the opposite of organic, character based writing and it leaves a lot of destruction in its wake – in the case of our fellows here, Vulcan, Spock’s Mom and now Pike have all been shoved into the fridge. (Look up Women in Refrigerators.) It makes the character a victim, it prevents them from making decisions based on intelligence or their moral stance…whatever that is here. The best we can hope for is for them to buck up by the end of the story. Which they generally do. In TOS, when his brother was killed, then his sister in law, and his nephew in danger, Kirk did not stop thinking. (I really miss TOS Kirk and Spock and McCoy. And yes, I’ve heard the rational that Kirk is still young, still growing up to be the captain we know…but this guy isn’t that guy. Really.)

Let me ask you this: did you or anyone you know actually sympathize with Kirk at this moment (when he was running off for vengeance, and fired Scotty because he was blinded with grief?) Identify with him? I think we were all watching, thinking he was being a big tool. I didn’t really appreciate Kirk being used to – I’m guessing – characterize America’s response to terrorism. (Actually I had been thinking Kirk was a big tool from the start, but that’s me.)

But they needed Kirk to be a tool so Scotty could be…where he had to be. It’s the opposite of character-based drama.

Again, thank you for your polite and considered responses. I used to post here frequently and was originally very excited about these movies. There are still things I love…Karl Urban as McCoy, particularly. Pike was great, as was Winona Rider.

205. govna - September 23, 2013

“For production reasons, we just simply couldn’t afford to go out into space…” hilarious when you think about it. This is a space based franchise. But they couldnt afford to go to space for a particular scene.

In all seriousness…i have a major problem with the fact they wrote the story about a bad guy named John Harrison. And by their own admission, they retroactively went back, simply changed the character’s name(!) and shoe horned in Khan. That seems like REALLY poor writing, imo. Is it lazy? Is it uninspired? Is it simply a bad idea? I cant quite put my finger on it.

its the same idea as, say, writing an actioner about a character named Capt Kirk. Then when youre almost done with the script, you simply change the name to John McLane, move the action from space to russia and, voilà, a new die hard film. (yes, my example is a bit much…but im sure you all get my point.)

i don’t know why they FREELY admit to doing this either! It seems they should be embarrassed for the character swap based on name. embarrassed!

206. TrekkieJan - September 23, 2013

@193. Cygnus-X1

“I enjoyed reading your post and agree with all of it, apart from your having been less annoyed than I by what they did with Khan in STID.”

Oh, I was plenty annoyed. What a waste. What a *waste!* Of Benedict Cumberbatch (who was amazing with what he had to work with) and Khan.

“After learning that Khan would probably be in the movie, I actually made a deliberate effort to maintain an open mind. Some people here had come up with intriguing ideas for a new Khan story, and I had really enjoyed the whole “Augment” story in ST:Enterprise. I’d found the Augment premise very fertile ground for new stories, and had become curious and excited at the prospect of STID doing a Khan story which related to the Augment premise.”

I agree about the richness of the subject matter, the possibilities. I liked the Khan novelizations very much. They took the material to unexpected places for me. I think that’s the thing about Khan – you admire and like him even as he frightens and repels you. I was imagining a taut chess game of some kind between two highly intelligent people.

I won’t say I went in completely open-minded, having been both disappointed pretty badly by the first outing – a disappointment that’s made the movie pretty un-rewatchable for me – and spoiled. But I thought I had made up my mind to at least just roll with it and enjoy. I actually saw it with someone who went in with the full intent of loving it no matter what, and she was angrier than I at the end. Other Trekkie friends (of all ages) either have refused to see it or are beyond angry. I know one who dragged her friends to see it so they could be appalled with her.

And here’s the thing I don’t think the guys get about why people are mad about politics in their popcorn – most of the movie is set up to be for popcorn. That’s the tone they set. The action is big and loud and silly for it’s most part, the characters dumb and stiff as rocks.

The message does feel like an affront. Tease us with intelligent action and we’ll listen to your message…whatever it was. (I think I’m pretty educated on messages based on research for my own work and I still can’t figure out exactly what they were trying to say.)

I’m being so polite here – my friends will tell you that I was not so polite on finally viewing it. I actually made them turn it off for a moment when I saw the Enterprise underwater, because the stupid made my head hurt.

207. Curious Cadet - September 23, 2013

@192. Aurore,
“Which did not prevent him from noticing that the white terrorist in it had a name evoking…”otherness.”

Good point.

Orci really hung himself with his defense of casting Khan as being he did not want to demonize a dark-skinned person, especially one who appeared to be of Middle Eastern descent. Further he went on to say he wanted Audiences to identify Harrison as “one of us” (read white), yet halfway through the movie he removes all possibility for that, along with any sympathy, by retconing Khan as a sociopath guilty of mass genocide of any species he feels is inferior (as if being Khan alone isn’t enough to immediately disqualify him as “one of us”). He might as well have announced his name was Hannibal Lechter. Then there’s the name — it’s like the white American al Qaeda member who moves to Afganistan and takes a Muslim name — to Americans it doesn’t matter if he’s white or brown, he’s a Muslim! So out of one side of his mouth he doesn’t want to demonize someone who appears to be a stereotypical Middle Easterner, but out of the other he has no problem invoking a name that evokes the stereotypical Middle Eastern terrorist.

Add to that most fans insist that there must be a reason for Khan’s appearance change, which completely unravels Orci’s stated intent.

Orci really should have just gone upfront with his third defense, which he didn’t think needed to be spelled out: that the best actor got the part. How colorblind of him — it’s quite admirable. However, I don’t recall they auditioned any non-white actors for Kirk, suggesting perhaps they might not have gotten the best actor for that role based on this rationale. It also doesn’t make any sense as Orci stated he would not even consider a non-white actor for Khan, so who did they really audition?

208. Curious Cadet - September 23, 2013

@204. TrekkieJan,
“I believe I’ve read, Roddenberry and others did not think it was very Trek. Interesting, yes?”

It’s hard to keep up with what Roddenberry thought was Trek or no — he thought TVH was Trek of the 5 Harve Bennett movies, and that was very Tribbles like. But I do recall perhaps having heard that.

However, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Marja’s response @157 reminded me I was not wrong about Scotty’s demeanor in The Galileo 7 episode. It’s not that he didn’t care, it’s that he was a professional that put his personal feelings aside to focus on his duties, and HIS duties are with respect to the Enterprise first and foremost.

————————
“Let me ask you this: did you or anyone you know actually sympathize with Kirk at this moment (when he was running off for vengeance, and fired Scotty because he was blinded with grief?) Identify with him?”

Thanks for your thorough explanation of your meaning. I’m still not convinced Pike’s death wasn’t unnecessary to motivate Kirk appropriately. Did I personally sympathize with Kirk? No, but then I rarely empathize with anyone who wants to turn loss into revenge. Picard did this in First Contact (which I consider one of the better films in the franchise), and I didnt sympathize with him either. I understand it. And I understand why you say it was unnecessary — perhaps it could have been handled another way. But I don’t count it among the films biggest problems either.

But more importantly, I understand your objection better … This is not the Kirk on which an entire franchise was built. Whether the next film attempts to address that or not. I get that and don’t disagree. So whether his actions are perfectly aligned with those we’ve come to expect from this Kirk, I think you reject it on principle. And that’s fine too. The greatest moment in First Contact for me was where Picard came out of his fog and stopped being a revenge-bent ass, and started thinking clearly again. Sadly, I don’t think that moment ever came for Kirk.

But this Kirk was born a victim. And he’s still a victim. I haven’t yet seen Kirk make a command decision, he’s merely reacting to circumstances. There’s no thought or planning behind any decision he makes. Who knows perhaps the new Summer popcorn audiences these producers so desperately seek (recall it was not the studio’s idea, they originally planned ST09 for a holiday release), do sympathize with a hero who is at his core a victim, as they perhaps see themselves?

209. TrekkieJan - September 23, 2013

@208. Curious Cadet

“It’s hard to keep up with what Roddenberry thought was Trek or no — he thought TVH was Trek of the 5 Harve Bennett movies, and that was very Tribbles like. But I do recall perhaps having heard that.”

I agree Roddenberry’s opinions are an interesting study – and Roddenberry was known to change his stance. Trouble, written by a very young David Gerrold, shown with the young fan’s love and enthusiasm for Trek but plays a bit like well acted fan-fiction.

I had missed Marja’s thoughtful response, thank you.

“However, we’ll have to agree to disagree.”

We will, and I respect your reasons. You bought into the story – for me, Scotty’s line was simple lamp-shading for the the ridiculous and unnecessary spectacle of the Enterprise – a starship – being underwater, and at the cost of his concern for an important crew member and friend.

They never even returned to the moment (Kirk remembers the Enterprises’ underwater abilities and uses this to save the day) which might have made the excess forgivable.

————————
“I’m still not convinced Pike’s death wasn’t unnecessary to motivate Kirk appropriately.”

He could have been ordered to go. As an officer, orders are usually motivational. He could have been offered his ship and crew back to go – also motivational.

“And I understand why you say it was unnecessary — perhaps it could have been handled another way. But I don’t count it among the films biggest problems either.”

Oh, I agree – far from the biggest problem. Just endemic of the character’s needing to do certain things to make the plot work – which is one of the film’s biggest problems.

“Sadly, I don’t think that moment ever came for Kirk.”

Now that I think of it, I don’t think so either.

“But this Kirk was born a victim. And he’s still a victim. I haven’t yet seen Kirk make a command decision, he’s merely reacting to circumstances.”

Another good point – his sacrifice was particularly troublesome – he basically cut off the head of his ship – eliminating the command structure, and chaos and destruction ensued. If his big talent is making great decisions by the seat of his pants – he removed that talent at a critical time. Poor – and too easy – (and ultimately meaningless) choice.

A victim is perhaps easier for modern viewers to identify with than a hero. But I’d love to see Kirk a hero so we can find out whether he loses his popularity or not.

I get the feeling – only the feeling – that the writers, like so many of us – identify more with Spock (whom I would argue was better left more mysterious) and that they think of Kirk as the idiot who shoved their heads into the toilet bowl.

Please, guys, learn who the real Kirk is. Let’s give Pine his change to shine.

CC- thank you for a civil discussion. Your thoughts on Khan were helpful, although I can’t help but think of this character as a wasted opportunity.

210. Matt Wright - September 23, 2013

Killing off Pike.

It’s kind of a standard storytelling gimmick. It’s part of the generic “hero’s journey” thing you get in Literature 101.
Male protagonist has father/mentor, said figure dramatically leaves/dies, this event pushes our protagonist to be a better person/take a leap of faith/etc.

It’s basically the whole Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi dynamic from the original Star Wars (A New Hope).

211. Yanks - September 23, 2013

@ 161. Colin – September 22, 2013
I watch that video listing what was wrong about Star Trek: Into Darkness, and I read the comments that people after that post.

Someone suggested above that people who joined Al-Queda did so because their families were held hostage and that they committed acts of terrorism to help their families. This is garbage. I read the 9-11 report. The men who did that terrible act were from the middle class, were highly educated, and believed that their job prospects were bleak. In their anger and frustration, they turned to an organization which gave them a home and a purpose. Their families weren’t held hostage during their enlisting and indoctrination phase.

As someone living in the post-911 world, there were so many aspects of the film that felt wrong. The most noticeable for me was the location of the emergency session. Again, from reading the 9-11 report, and from reading history, military and political leaders in a crisis DO NOT meet in a skyscraper conference room that has glass that can be shattered by weapons fire. They meet in a secured bunker-like room. If the writers wanted to have this scenario, we have historical precedents on how a bombing could be achieved. In 1944, a German general left a briefcase at a meeting with Chancellor Hitler, which injured him and killed several people. Of course, this would require Mission: Impossible theatrics, but in a futuristic setting, I believe it could be pulled off.
========================================================

Orci is a 9-11 truther.

The whole theme for the movie is the war will be started from someone from within.

212. Marcus - September 23, 2013

210. Matt Wright

“Killing off Pike. It’s kind of a standard storytelling gimmick. It’s part of the generic “hero’s journey” thing you get in Literature 101.

Male protagonist has father/mentor, said figure dramatically leaves/dies, this event pushes our protagonist to be a better person/take a leap of faith/etc.

It’s basically the whole Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi dynamic from the original Star Wars (A New Hope).”

———–

grrr… rofl….

Yeah, I forgot about that annoying similarity.

Did you happen to notice that parts of the Enterprise looked like they were from “Star Wars”? Shinny black floors and white walls.

213. TrekkieJan - September 23, 2013

@210. Matt Wright

Re: Pike’s death: “It’s kind of a standard storytelling gimmick.”

Gimmick being the operative word. (I’ve read Joseph Campbell too.) Unfortunately, we already saw the death of Kirk’s heroic father, and we should be doing “The Empire Strikes Back” this time around. Seriously, it comes off as gimmick unless you’re invested in the story – I wasn’t and no-one I know was by this point. (I obviously do not know everyone who saw the movie. I’m sure plenty of people were invested.)

“Male protagonist has father/mentor, said figure dramatically leaves/dies, this event pushes our protagonist to be a better person/take a leap of faith/etc.”

Or to go to the Evil Emperor and ask to do his bidding in his evil scheme. Until the First Officer points out – when he can get the hero’s attention away from the comely new weapons expert – that he’s being immoral.

214. Matt Wright - September 23, 2013

@ TrekkieJan – Yep, exactly. You should write for Hollywood ;)

215. Marcus - September 23, 2013

Marcus seemed like the Emperor.

Kirk = Like
Pike = Vader
Marcus = Emperor.

216. Mel - September 23, 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REOjxvQPQNQ#t=18

The video mentions two scenes, in which McCoy implies, that something is wrong about Kirk’s health. What kind of storyline was planned there and then abandoned? Do we have some info about this?

217. Marcus - September 23, 2013

Fixed:

Kirk = Luke
Pike = Vader
Marcus = Emperor.

218. Spock's Bangs - September 23, 2013

I sure feel sorry for all those fans who are incapable of just watching Star Trek. 5 minutes can’t pass on the screen before you’re knee deep in Wikipedia or researching past episodes and novels, all the time compiling extensive notes about what is “wrong” with it. You’re incapable of simply kicking back and enjoying the show. That’s gotta suck.

219. Rick - September 23, 2013

Way To Go Bob and Company!!!
> Star Trek Into Darkness > topping the home entertainment charts at #1.
As the Hollywood Reporter tells us, 72% of the sales were BluRay, and it hit #1 on all three major sales charts, including Nielsen VideoScan’s First Alert, the primary disc sales chart, and Home Media Magazine’s rental charts.
more > http://www.tgdaily.com/games-and-entertainment-features/79912-star-trek-into-darkness-is-1-in-home-entertainment-despite-th

220. TrekkieJan - September 23, 2013

@214 – Matt Wright.

I’m not done yet! How about a foot chase and punching with the 2 smartest guys on the planet…?

221. Buzz Cagney - September 23, 2013

I think we all pretty much saw Pike’s death coming. As soon as Greenwoods popularity in the role became obvious he was a dead man!
A real shame that one, and Greenwood deserved better I felt because, after all the delight in Pike following ’09, did anybody feel remotely sad at his death? I know I didn’t. But then i’d had 4 years to prepare and that is a very long goodbye indeed.

Also, talking of Star Wars, as some of you are, did you notice the incredibly War’s cue’s in the music around the time Scotty goes to the Jupiter station?

222. Charla - September 23, 2013

# 41 Baby and #107 TrekWebMaster- You both stated very heartfelt thoughts that I also feel as well, thank you both for putting it into words so wonderfully!

Thanks for the link to the podcast, I loved hearing Bob’s feelings and rationale to the choices made in the film. So cool to be the one taking over the helm of Trek after Roddenberry! Bob’s call to duty is not a failure, but a great success- he and the others have managed to bring it back to life.

Loved both films and looking forward to the next one!

223. Charla - September 23, 2013

# 41 Baby and #107 TrekWebMaster- You both stated very heartfelt thoughts that I also feel as well, thank you both for putting it into words so wonderfully!

Thanks for the link to the podcast, I loved hearing Bob’s feelings and rationale to the choices made in the film. So cool to be the one taking over the helm of Trek after Roddenberry! Bob’s call to duty is not a failure, but a great success- he and the others have managed to bring it back to life.

Loved both films and looking forward to the next one!

224. Curious Cadet - September 23, 2013

@219. Rick,
“72% of the sales were BluRay”

Of COURSE it did! People had to buy 3 copies of the BluRay to get all the extras.

—————–
“and it hit #1 on all three major sales charts”

So look for Paramount to shaft the fans of its movies in this manner from now on …

Thanks JJ!

225. Disinvited - September 23, 2013

#207. Curious Cadet – September 23, 2013

I believe the first series’ covered the Bard’s thoughts on this name business.

I point out that the name “Tarzan” neither evokes “White British Lord” and yet he was in his fiction. And like this Khan, he had two identities/names.

226. Cygnus-X1 - September 23, 2013

206. TrekkieJan – September 23, 2013

—I know one who dragged her friends to see it so they could be appalled with her.—

That made me laugh. Misery does love company.

A friend of mine summed up his feelings about Bad Robot’s Star Trek thus:

“These guys make shiny baubles for a mass market, and they’re pretty good at it. I just wish they weren’t so creatively lazy, and self-serious all at once.”

There are so many things that I disliked about STID and ST’09 that I have a hard time remembering them all. I tend to get bogged down in the plot holes, but their frequency would appear to be a consequence of the backwards, plot-based drama as you mentioned. The writers are trying to work out ways for events to happen, how to get from A to B to C, instead of having the plot be a result of the characters’ motivations.

In ST’09, Spock behaves very much out of character by becoming stressed out and ejecting Kirk off of the ship, marooning him on a barren ice planet, so that Kirk can get chased by a monster there into the very cave where Spock Prime is hanging out. What are the chances, ay? That whole big planet and Kirk accidentally stumbles into the right cave. But that’s not the end of Kirk’s amazingly good luck. Scotty’s nearby, too! So, now Scotty can use Spock Prime’s info from the future to get himself and Kirk back onto the ship! And Kirk was off of the ship for what…just a few hours.

227. Cygnus-X1 - September 23, 2013

210. Matt Wright – September 23, 2013

—Killing off Pike….It’s basically the whole Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi dynamic from the original Star Wars (A New Hope).—

Right, but the analogy there would be if there’d been no growth in Luke as a character consequent to him losing Obi-Wan.

In STID, we lose (IMO) the most solid and unambiguous main character without getting anything in return. Kirk doesn’t learn anything consequent to Pike’s death.

I honestly think they killed off Pike for two reasons: (1) to give Kirk a reason to go where they wanted him to go, and (2) to tug at the audience’s heart-strings (as with opening scene of ST’09) and get us emotionally invested in the movie.

228. Damian - September 23, 2013

218–I have to agree. I’m guilty of doing the same thing to some extent. I’ve become so well versed in canon, between seeing all the shows and movies, and reading the novels, that I look for the inconsistencies myself. But I always remind myself, as long as the story doesn’t completely blow up and disregard everything up to that point, it’s not a big deal. That’s one reason that I appreciated the fact that Abrams and co. set this up as an alternate universe. That what’s happening now is not supposed to coincide with what came before by design.

I can’t actually say I ever hated something I watched on Star Trek. Certainly something like Star Trek V is not the best thing ever to come out, but I didn’t hate it. I can’t even say is hated the much maligned Voyager episode “Threshold”, though that comes perilously close (which even Braga admits was one of his lowlights).

I think it’s just important to remember, nothing in life is perfect. I liked some of the adjustments the Abrams team made for STID, like making Scotty a serious character, but still good for a few laughs, modifying engineering (and the bridge viewscreen). I do think we need more McCoy though. I was pleasantly surprised at Section 31′s inclusion, and they did nail down what Section 31 is capable of quite well, based on their development in Deep Space Nine and Enterprise.

229. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - September 23, 2013

@202. Jemini – September 23, 2013

I appreciated your comments here regarding the double standard often applied to male versus female characters.

It is so ingrained that most of the time we don’t even notice that we’re doing it.

230. Phil - September 23, 2013

@227. I suspect that most fans have similar feelings, there isn’t any Trek that they hate, some is just obviously better then others. “Threshold’ aside, I’m sure everyone can think of an episode or movie that’s a groaner, to be polite.

What is defying explanation, are the handful of people who have been hitting these boards hard going on that Bad Robot Trek is just an abomination to all that is righteous and good. Assigning that level of bombast to any form of entertainment really just defies explanation. ‘Generations’, for me, is still the worst Trek movie made, but it sure as hell hasn’t sucked away my will to live. There is some sanity left in the universe, after all.

231. Marja - September 23, 2013

209 TrekkieJan, “Just endemic of the character’s needing to do certain things to make the plot work – which is one of the film’s biggest problems.” This summer movie plot-serving device is, sadly, starting to make me see each of the characters as a ball rolling down a Rube Goldberg contraption to keep it in motion …. I think by about viewing #6 I began to feel emotionally manipulated. Kudos to the actors, but it worries me as a viewer. I’m very emotive, so the main thing that draws me in is character and emotion and the readings by the actors. I’m artistic so I appreciate the fantastic uniforms and other costumes. I’m a writer who deals with character almost exclusively. Let’s put it this way, seeing the mechanics of plot is not my strong point!

“ [Kirk’s] sacrifice was particularly troublesome – he basically cut off the head of his ship – eliminating the command structure, and chaos and destruction ensued. If his big talent is making great decisions by the seat of his pants – he removed that talent at a critical time. Poor – and too easy – (and ultimately meaningless) choice.” Well, this I disagree with. He’s already told Spock he’s the best man for the job of commanding the ship at this point. Kirk realized he was emotionally compromised and that his thinking wasn’t at its strong point. So he made the dive to the Vengeance, worked with Khan until – well, until he didn’t, and tragedy piles upon tragedy. [Allowing for plenty of destruction-as-action, yecch.] But I can see TOS Kirk going into the reactor chamber if he saw no other way. He was brave and would serve his ship and crew in whatever way possible. At that moment, I think TOS Kirk would have done the same thing.

“A victim is perhaps easier for modern viewers to identify with than a hero. But I’d love to see Kirk a hero so we can find out whether he loses his popularity or not.” I think in these first two films Kirk is a victim who is being forged into a hero. In the next outing, I certainly hope we will see the Kirk from TOS [Season One], who is keenly intelligent, a bit dispassionate when it counts, and passionately devoted to his ship and her crew.

232. crazydaystrom - September 23, 2013

@218. Spock’s Bangs
“I sure feel sorry for all those fans who are incapable of just watching Star Trek. 5 minutes can’t pass on the screen before you’re knee deep in Wikipedia or researching past episodes and novels, all the time compiling extensive notes about what is “wrong” with it. You’re incapable of simply kicking back and enjoying the show. That’s gotta suck.”

Yeah I imagine that would suck SB. But I hope you’re perceptive enough to realize that the overwhelming majority of us who were/are disappointed with STID cannot be accurately described that way. Just as I would not characterize the fans who loved the film as ‘viewing it with their brains turned off’. It’s not a ‘black or white’ thing. More like an ‘infinite shades of grey’ sort of thing.

IDIC

233. Colin - September 23, 2013

#211

The biggest issue I have with 9-11 truthers and Peal Harbor truthers and all the other truthers who believe the government is behind these conspiracies is that they overestimate the intelligence and cleverness of the government. As a person who has to deal with the government (I am mentally disabled and is receiving SSI/SSD), I can attest to the fact that the government is crowded with buffons who can’t tie their shoelaces.

234. TrekkieJan - September 23, 2013

@ 230 – Marja

You make me want to see your version of the story made into a movie. I believe I’d enjoy that. And although I’d take a beautifully emotive scene over a plot heavy one – work on those plot mechanics and keep writing. Who knows?

I’m sure you’re right about what Kirk said to Spock before his self-sacrifice. I’ve only seen the movie once and it was a home viewing with noisy friends so I’m sure there was a lot I missed, especially towards the end. Thanks for that.

235. Keachick - September 23, 2013

Spring is here because our old peach tree’s blossoms have gone and now there are lovely little fresh green leaves taking over. Everywhere there is a ‘sea’ of blossoms and new greenery – vital and refreshed. This also means that I need to start taking sinus relief medication more regularly. Life is such a bitter/sweet affair…

The nights are still cold, which *necessitates* my going to my bed with my hottie, placing my new STID DVD into my own $29 TEAC player and watching it on my small analogue TV set sitting on the bedroom dresser…One character who resonated with me so earnestly a next morning was Dr McCoy. The character certainly had less screen time and less dialogue than others, but what he did have was pivotal. Everything seemed to be “coming in loud and clear”.

* When Spock was quoting the prime directive, it was McCoy who yelled, “Spock! We are trying to save your life, damn it!” As far as McCoy was concerned, rules pertaining to the prime directive – be damned. If Kirk had doubts as to what to do, McCoy clarified. Kirk asks McCoy what Spock would do and McCoy says, “He would let you die”. In that moment, Kirk realized that he/Kirk was NOT Spock and was clear about what he had to do…

* Dr McCoy reminds Kirk that he needs to have medical checkup because he has just survived a fire-fight (McCoy is sensitive enough not to remind a grieving Kirk about his real loss…). Kirk refuses

* When Dr McCoy tries to give him a check up on the shuttlecraft, Kirk still refuses Dr McCoy’s necessary attempts to diagnose him and even Dr McCoy notes how testy Kirk is and says so.

* Once aboard the Enterprise, Dr McCoy again tries to get Kirk to allow him to provide necessary medical ministrations and but Kirk just curtly tells McCoy to report to MedBay. He also curtly dismisses Spock… What Dr McCoy tells Kirk (and his first officer who is within earshot) is pivotal – “Jim, your vitals are way off”.

This clearly tells that Jim Kirk is somewhat unhinged, maybe even sickening for something of a psycho-physical nature. Unfortunately, we soon hear that Spock is not that much better than Kirk. However, what I could see is that what one seemed to lack, the other made up for…

What I found interesting was the actual metaphor that Bones used – he seemed to liken what they were doing to bank robbing (a criminal activity) with the getaway car having a flat tyre. If only it was that simple for the Enterprise as in just having the equivalent of a “flat tyre”.

Given what took place at HQ, another admiral or commander who was not operating from his own hidden agenda would have more likely refused Kirk’s request to go after Harrison/Khan. I think he would have insisted on a slight cooling off period in order to assess the damage (not just physical, but emotional) of the attack and then plan what needed to be done next, within Starfleet regulations and guidelines. Marcus was using Kirk’s grief and anger, volatility, desire to please in a way that Pike would not have done. While all Kirk could hear were the screams of his pain and the *momentary* desire to get even, what Spock and McCoy were observing were orders and behaviours that were way off.

236. Aurore - September 23, 2013

@ 207. Curious Cadet – September 23, 2013
“…Add to that most fans insist that there must be a reason for Khan’s appearance change…”
___________

“Most fans”? I don’t know.

However, some fans obviously do.

“… It also doesn’t make any sense as Orci stated he would not even consider a non-white actor for Khan, so who did they really audition?”

Hopefully, we’ll learn more on the question someday.
(I would be interested in knowing more…)

I say so for I haven’t forgotten what I was once told :

“…In fact, it appears that many actors of these backgrounds were tested for the role, whether it be Khan or not.” ( Post 573 ) :

http://trekmovie.com/2012/12/12/tenutoblog-making-the-case-for-identifying-the-star-trek-into-darkness-villain/

237. Marja - September 23, 2013

202 Jemini, Thanks for reminding us that the men in this movie were for the most part far more emotional than the women! We need to be reminded.

I think the double standard happens because the writers are men, and they’re operating under pretty traditional Hollywood standards. Orci and Kurtzman have done very well with Uhura within those parameters, and somewhat exceeded the parameters.

Other people have pointed out that it’d be good to see Uhura operating professionally with another woman, Carol Marcus for example. I thought the torpedo scene could have used Uhura to, say, translate a code that could open the thing. I think [from the Doyle perspective] they used McCoy because there wasn’t enough of him in the picture. But I’d love to see such a scene in the next picture, with a brief conversation that [per the Bechtel test] does not relate to men, after. “How do you keep your cool in these situations?” something like that.

By the way, thanks for posting the contrast between “Doyle” and “Watson” writing. A useful concept, especially with a view to this film : )

In a side note, I think DaveH (who said he’d be outta the theatre if there’s a Bridge game) has a point. And I don’t want to see any babies on the Enterprise, even from Spock and Uhura.

238. Marcus - September 23, 2013

237. Marja.

“Carol Marcus for example. I thought the torpedo scene could have used Uhura to, say, translate a code that could open the thing.” ~ Marja

I am not sure if you know anything about codding, but its not the same as listening and translating vocal languages. You can fight me on this into oblivion. I know exactly what I am talking about. Uhura would be unqualified.

239. Marcus - September 23, 2013

237. Marja,

McCoy was sued for that scene because there was a human in the torpedo.

240. Marcus - September 23, 2013

Fixed: used -not- sued

241. Ahmed - September 23, 2013

@ 237. Marja

“202 Jemini, Thanks for reminding us that the men in this movie were for the most part far more emotional than the women! We need to be reminded.”

If you look at the examples, you will notice that the guys were arguing about work related issues, unlike Uhura who was arguing about her relationship with Spock.

Marja, tell me if what Uhura did on the shuttle was acceptable behavior in any military branch, or the way she was dismissive of her captain on the shuttle.

242. Ahmed - September 23, 2013

@ 239. Marcus – September 23, 2013

“McCoy was sued for that scene because there was a human in the torpedo.”

But they didn’t know that until they managed to open the torpedo, IIRC.

243. Marcus - September 23, 2013

241. Ahmed,

I agree. If that conversation happened in the old series, Spock and Uhura would have been separated rather quickly. “Star Trek: TNG” also touched upon the subject from multiple angles. Ricker and Troy never became physically involved while on duty. Sometimes their relationship slipped, but they pulled themselves together.

When Paris and B’Elanna had those scenes on “Voyager”, the relationship fit the context. Since Voyager was so far away from home, Janeway allowed her crew to bend certain social rules.

244. Marcus - September 23, 2013

242. Ahmed,

I think Kirk knew Khan was telling the truth; therefore, he played ‘the risk’ card in that scene.

Plus, what is one of the rules in being a captain? Do you remember the “Star Trek: TNG” episode where Troy was training to be a commander? Why did she fail the first few times around? She couldn’t send a close friend into a risky situation. Kirk knew the consequences.

245. Marcus - September 23, 2013

Now I am starting to like this movie. rofl…

246. Ahmed - September 23, 2013

@ 245. Marcus – September 23, 2013

“Now I am starting to like this movie. rofl…”

Beware of the Dark Side :)

247. Shapeshiftinglizard - September 23, 2013

233
When someone argues about gov complicity, they aren’t talking about the dMV and the post office. The question is, can Cheney and Rumsfeld, who have partners and in gov since Nixon, accomplish something nefarious despite our gov when they have 30 years at highest level to plan?

248. Shapeshiftinglizard - September 23, 2013

Check this fun out!

http://m.imgur.com/a/caYim

249. Marshall - September 23, 2013

@241 Ahmed

Good point!

250. Marcus - September 23, 2013

246. Ahmed, When it comes to the new “Star Trek”, I am suffering from two trains of thought. Some parts of the story got me to say, “Nah, I do not think I would have done that”. Other parts of the story got me to say, “Do you know what? I liked that scene”. I am suffering from a duality. I think that ticks me off the most. I am having a love and hate relationship with both movies.

247. Shapeshiftinglizard, Its a tough argument. If more than three to four people are involved with a conspiracy, the plans would fall apart prior to its execution. When there are more people involved with a conspiracy, someone within the group will eventually slip. 9/11 is too big to be a conspiracy. JFK assassination is most likely the right size.

Look at the current conspiracy taking place. Obama and his connections to MSNBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, and ABC are currently involved with a conspiracy. Even though they keep getting caught, everyone involved thinks they are fooling everyone. Other words, the conspiracy has already fallen apart, and everyone who sees it is just waiting for people to notice. 15 members of the mainstream media got jobs with the administration.

251. shapeshiftinglizard - September 23, 2013

250 marcus

for 911, higly placed vice pres and sec def woild not require large number of all in conspirators.

manhatten project had 10,000 folk working on it directly, and 100k working indirectly for years, and vice pres Truman had no idea for years until FDR died. and this was, at the time, a project hiding a super bomb that some scientists thought could incinerate earth’s atmosphere. therefore, it is emporocally proven that many people can keep a secret.

252. boborci - September 23, 2013

who am I kidding. I can’t quit you;)

253. OneBuckFilms - September 23, 2013

252 – An the Prodigal Son Returns. :)

254. Ahmed - September 23, 2013

@ 252. boborci – September 23, 2013

Welcome back :)

255. boborci - September 23, 2013

ahmed, my old friend…

256. Matt Wright - September 23, 2013

And before anyone asks, yes that’s really Bob Orci, I’ve confirmed it from the admin side of the site.

Welcome back :)

257. boborci - September 23, 2013

F@&k you all!

I keeeeed !

258. Ahmed - September 23, 2013

@ 255. boborci – September 23, 2013

“ahmed, my old friend…”

Thanks my friend. I know that sometime, I get carried away in my reaction, but I always have respect for you.

btw, I loved hearing you on the podcast talking about making Trek more sci-fi. I’m really excited about that. looking forward for more interesting revelations from you in the coming months & years.

259. Marcus - September 23, 2013

Welcome back Orci

251. shapeshiftinglizard,
I am wondering. If the small group at the top kept everyone in ignorance, I can see a possibility of a conspiracy working. …but, you would have some sort of paper trail to follow. I used to read through the various 9/11 theories, which ats.com had listed in their forums. Some of them seem way too complex for me to believe.

260. boborci - September 23, 2013

258 Ahmed.

I get carried away, too, so don’t sweat it. All in good fun.

261. Vultan - September 23, 2013

#251

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/09/the-time-the-manhattan-project-leaked-to-a-cleveland-newspaper/279873/

262. Ash - September 23, 2013

@252 boborci

Very glad to see you’ve returned.

I’m sure it can’t always be easy to come here and see everyones criticisms of your hard work, but the very fact that you do and try to listen/interact is very admirable. I can’t think of a single other person in the business who would, so thank you.

263. Harry Ballz - September 23, 2013

@260 boborci “I get carried away”

Me, too, Bob!

I get carried away to my bed after about 20 pints!

264. boborci - September 23, 2013

262 ash

i was a dick with no excuse. wont happen again.

265. Ash - September 23, 2013

@264 boborci

Well with the way it gets around here I’m impressed you kept you cool as long as you did.

Anyways welcome back.

266. boborci - September 23, 2013

285. Ash

thanks, dude. will be back after I troll the net for reactions on Sleepy Hollow!

267. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 23, 2013

BOB OCRI — MY FRIEND !!!!!!

I quit this site right after you left as I was so upset and disullusioned with a minor subset of the otherwise great Star Trek fans here.

“You brought me back,” as Darth Vader said to Luke Skywalker. That is how I feel now.

You brought me back, Bob Orci!

THANK YOU, BOB! TODAY IS THE BEST OF DAYS FOR ME!

268. Phil - September 23, 2013

@257. I feel so much better now.

Welcome back.

269. Buzz Cagney - September 23, 2013

Ah its great to see you back. HarryBallz, we don’t see much of you these days! Or perhaps its me that doesn’t get on here much any more? Its one or the other anyway!
So, Harry, what did you think of Into Darkness? I don’t think i’ve seen your thoughts anywhere.

270. Disinvited - September 23, 2013

#260. boborci – September 23, 2013

Welcome back.

Congrats on SLEEPY HOLLOW; I’m hooked.

271. Marja - September 24, 2013

Bob Orci, I’m late to the party but …
WELCOME BACK … I love that you’re talking more Sci-Fi for the next film and please keep Spock and Uhura together! : )

Re: Uhura and Spock’s convo. In front of Kirk. On the ship. To Kronos/Q’O'onoS/Whatev.

The mere fact that Kirk said, “Do you have to do this now?” in the tone of a friend or brother, and did not say, “Lieutenant! As you were!” signals to me that he is a friend to both and is willing to let them talk. He knows they’re attentive enough to act if necessary and he certainly is himself.

Who knows, anyway, the military discipline in the AU of the 23rd century may allow for things that today’s military does not.

272. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

” 238. Marcus – September 23, 2013

237. Marja.

“Carol Marcus for example. I thought the torpedo scene could have used Uhura to, say, translate a code that could open the thing.” ~ Marja

I am not sure if you know anything about codding, but its not the same as listening and translating vocal languages. You can fight me on this into oblivion. I know exactly what I am talking about. Uhura would be unqualified.”

Well, Marcus, I disagree. And I question whether or not you know exactly what you’re talking about here.

She would be qualified because she’s not only a Xenolinguistics Specialist, but also a Communications Engineer. Coding is a form of communication, as are frequencies that I would guess are also converted to code while stored or downloaded/uploaded to the ship’s systems and then reconverted back when played back aurally or even possibly when re-transmitted.

If all we were talking about is Uhura’s ability to listen to different types of living beings and translate their communications, then you might have a point. However, Uhura was trained to work on a starship, and that means that the bulk of her communications are going to be via–you guessed it–computers.

Back in the “analog” days of TOS, I guess can understand why they didn’t delve much into what Uhura could do in that regard and within that environment (aside from the times being the reason…). But, if I remember correctly, she was seen at least once doing engineering work where she had to tell Spock exactly how delicate it was. I went ahead and looked it up, and it’s at about the 4 minute mark here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK3Fc14xOu8&feature=player_embedded

So even then, in TOS, she was written as someone with advanced technical skills that were a part of her Communications Officer position…

We are living in a digital age now, Marcus, and that means computer code. All of the signals used aren’t going to be computer code, but they’ll likely be translated in and out of some sort of computer code…

If you don’t believe me, then check out this link. I think they explain how sound is stored on computers pretty well: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may98/articles/digital.html

“Although there are various alternative systems (some of which we will examine in later articles), the vast majority of digital audio systems encode the numbers which represent the original audio waveform as binary data, by means of a process known as pulse code modulation (PCM), which we will examine in more detail next month. It might seem deliberately obscure to record these all-important numbers in a different counting system to decimal, the one we’re all used to, but there is a reason: in binary counting, there are only two values, zero and one, and all numbers are therefore represented by strings of 0s and 1s (see the ‘Binary Bits & Pieces’ box if you’re already confused). Binary is ideally suited to our available technology, because these two states (0 and 1) can be represented as the on or off status of a transistor switch, north or south magnetisation on magnetic tapes, bumps or flats on CDs, high or low voltages in electronic circuits, or light and darkness on optical media. A square wave is used in PCM encoding; a point halfway up the wave is defined such that signals below are classed as 0s and signals above as 1s. Even if the PCM signal is distorted or noisy, it can always be regenerated (as long as the degradation is not too severe), so that the data representing the actual audio waveform can be recovered undamaged…”

Those binary “strings of 0s and 1s” they are talking about are basic machine language. That’s code. Who knows what kind of code an “Uhura” might be dealing with a few hundred years from now, but suffice it to say, she’d probably still be dealing with computers in some sort of way, and computers all use code to my knowledge. The Enterprise we looked at in these last two films sure looked like it had a large, networked, computer system on board to me. Again, if we are being hypothetical, then technological advancements could change some things about how those computers work, but I think Uhura would still be dealing with some kind of heavy STEM training (where she masters computer engineering) in addition to her “aural” mastering in Starfleet.

Then think about encrypted messages sent over secure channels. Encryption is coding and those “channels” (or signals) are forms of communication. So, who would be the expert there? Uhura. I personally think that Uhura’s capabilities have only been scratched against, and there’s so much there to delve into in terms of her expertise.

So, getting back to the original issue, Uhura would be the one skilled and trained best in “translating code,” which means I have to side with Marja.

Sorry I took a little bit getting to that point of agreement. I’m tired right now, so hopefully I wrote this clearly.

Goodnight

@boborci

Welcome (back).

273. ironhyde - September 24, 2013

I’ll add my gratitude to Orci’s returning as well. It’s always fun to hear from him and to feel like this sandbox actually might matter in some small way. Otherwise, what the heck are we doing here?

Thanks for giving all this nonsense a little more meaning, Bob. Welcome back

274. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - September 24, 2013

Welcome back, Bob Orci.

I have the DVD of STID in my collection now so I can watch it again whenever I like. I’m looking forward to see where you take us with the next one – will it be ‘where no one has gone before…’ :-)

275. Star Trek Lives - September 24, 2013

It’s nice to see Bob Orci back and interacting with the fans. However, I’d urge you to NOT listen to us too much, or take some of the criticisms too hard.

Ron Moore used to follow and contribute to the forums for DS9 and so did Ira Steven Behr. Those guys got plenty of flak back in the day! and Ira stopped posting and contributing in discussions altogether because of this.

Before some smart alec says that ‘they were better writers’ – I urge you to re-watch ‘Generations’ – which Ron Moore admits was full of plot holes and didn’t turn out as he wanted, despite his best efforts.

Mr Orci – overall, STID is a success – both critically and commercially. Anyone who doubts this need only look at the films box office or the review summaries on rotten tomatoes. There are always going to be people who dislike a movie – that’s a given. That there were always going to be a group of hardcore trekkies who dislike STID is also a given.

Whatever Trek productions come out, there will always be some fans who dont like it. I didn’t like Enterprise, but the majority of Trek fans seem to like that show.

LL&P

276. Jemini - September 24, 2013

241. Ahmed – September 23, 2013

@ 237. Marja

“202 Jemini, Thanks for reminding us that the men in this movie were for the most part far more emotional than the women! We need to be reminded.”

If you look at the examples, you will notice that the guys were arguing about work related issues, unlike Uhura who was arguing about her relationship with Spock.

——–

LOL Kirk actually argued with Spock because of personal reasons too don’t tell me that their arguments happened as “co workers”, like the fact that he wanted to be his friend and saved him for that reason but Spock didn’t seem to care. Or when he said he’d miss him and Spock said nothing. Kirk was frustracted with Spock because he didn’t get the whole friendship thing and he considered his behavior (when he filled the report) a betrayal because while Spock acted professional and handled the situation the way he, second in command, was supposed to, Kirk expected to get a free pass, so to speak, because they’re supposed to be friends and not just co-workers.

Same can be said about the argument between Pike and Kirk: the only reason Pike gave him a second chance and tried to help him was because he had become a father figure. He wouldn’t have done that for any officer.

Stop pretending that the male characters aren’t influenced – in their job on the ship and out of it – by their feelings and their interpersonal relationships with other characters.

277. crazydaystrom - September 24, 2013

Bob Orci’s back and sooner than I thought he would. It seems right.

Welcome back Bob.

278. P Technobabble - September 24, 2013

264. Bob Orci

Glad you can’t quit. After all, you do belong here.

279. Jemini - September 24, 2013

I forgot:

241. Ahmed – September 23, 2013

@ 237. Marja

Marja, tell me if what Uhura did on the shuttle was acceptable behavior in any military branch, or the way she was dismissive of her captain on the shuttle

—-

two can play this game

Ahmed, tell me if what the male characters did in the examples provided here can be considered acceptable behavior in any military branch or the way they were dismissive of their commanding officers on more than one occasion (also add McCoy’s rude remarks about Spock in both movies, especially when he was the acting captain)

avoiding the point and reinforcing the double standard argument: you’re doing it right LOL
there is no way out of it …

————-
269. Marja – September 24, 2013

Bob Orci, I’m late to the party but …
WELCOME BACK … I love that you’re talking more Sci-Fi for the next film and please keep Spock and Uhura together! : )

Re: Uhura and Spock’s convo. In front of Kirk. On the ship. To Kronos/Q’O’onoS/Whatev.

The mere fact that Kirk said, “Do you have to do this now?” in the tone of a friend or brother, and did not say, “Lieutenant! As you were!” signals to me that he is a friend to both and is willing to let them talk. He knows they’re attentive enough to act if necessary and he certainly is himself.

Who knows, anyway, the military discipline in the AU of the 23rd century may allow for things that today’s military does not.

———

not to mention that Kirk agreed with her, a detail that some people here like to ignore because they’re too focused on projecting their opinions on the characters..

but really he’s the last person who could judge anyone for their professionality ^^”"
at least we can’t say he is a hypocrite… ;)

280. AJ - September 24, 2013

Bob’s come home,

And Trekmovie matters again!

Let’s all butter him up and get him psyched to write the Best Trek Ever for the 50th!

281. Marja - September 24, 2013

238. Marcus – September 23, 2013

237. Marja, “Carol Marcus for example. I thought the torpedo scene could have used Uhura to, say, translate a code that could open the thing.” ~ Marja

“I am not sure if you know anything about codding, but its not the same as listening and translating vocal languages. You can fight me on this into oblivion. I know exactly what I am talking about. Uhura would be unqualified.”

Linguistics, in which Uhura is trained, involves the structure of language[s]; e.g., Japanese is constructed in a different way from English. Some codes are language-based [not the "coding" of which you write]; some simpler ones are text-dependent.

Re: your #250, “Look at the current conspiracy taking place. Obama and his connections to MSNBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, and ABC are currently involved with a conspiracy. Even though they keep getting caught, everyone involved thinks they are fooling everyone. Other words, the conspiracy has already fallen apart, and everyone who sees it is just waiting for people to notice. 15 members of the mainstream media got jobs with the administration.” Funny, you sound remarkably like a conspiracy theorist, even though you’ve said that government conspiracies are unworkable because they are too large to keep secret ….

I also remember an “Energy Conference” held early in the G. W. Bush administration in which Dick Cheney sequestered himself with some 30 heads of energy corporations and the discussion fell under the “National Security” rubric. Interestingly, this took place months before the buildup to the war in Iraq, from which energy companies benefited hugely. “Conspiracies” are not limited to one party (unless you watch Fox “News”).

282. Aurore - September 24, 2013

@ 257. boborci – September 23, 2013

“F@&k you all!…”
______

It’s nice to see you too, sir.

Welcome back.

283. Al - September 24, 2013

Can someone explain Rod Roddenberry’s comment to me? He’s saying Star Wars should be entertaining and have a message and Star Trek should be what? Just message? I can’t see his point

284. dscott - September 24, 2013

@ 257. boborci – September 23, 2013

“F@&k you all!…”
_____

That’s exactly what I say every day I wake up!!

Please, feel free to join me for a beer or twelve if you’re ever in the Tulsa area. We’ll just talk bullsh!t, no need for trek or anything relative… Just laugh.

285. The Keeper - September 24, 2013

257. boborci – September 23, 2013
F@&k you all!

I keeeeed !

What a perfect representation of the Star Trek brand!
I am sure Paramount is proud of you.

286. Marcus - September 24, 2013

279. Al
“Can someone explain Rod Roddenberry’s comment to me? He’s saying Star Wars should be entertaining and have a message and Star Trek should be what? Just message? I can’t see his point”

————

I am confused about this as well. After Orci describes “Star Trek”, Rod says, “Sorry, that’s what Star Wars is for.”. Its weird.

287. Phil - September 24, 2013

Hey, guys, lets not get to hung up on military protocol for Starfleet, okay? Obviously, it’s a bit different, so a protracted discussion on insubordination really isn’t going to accomplish much.

My understanding is that R. Lee Emory improvised most of his material in Full Metal Jacket. Maybe that’s what we need in the installment, Kirk on inspection of the ship while space sergeant Hartman lays into some unsuspecting propulsion’s mate…

Today… is Christmas! There will be a magic show at zero-nine-thirty! Chaplain Charlie will tell you about how the free universe will conquer the Klingons with the aid of God and a few of Starfleet! God has a hard-on for Starfleet because we kill everything we see! He plays His games, we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before Starfleet! So you can give your heart to Jesus, but your a$$ belongs to the Starfleet! Do you ladies understand?

288. Hugh Hoyland - September 24, 2013

Hey welcome back Bob!

The place wasnt the same without you. And enjoyed the podcast, very informative indeed.

289. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

@ 279 and 282 – Al and Marcus

I believe the thought is that Star Trek is escapist entertainment that makes you think, Star Wars is escapist entertainment.

That’s not far off – a fan of both (though much more of Trek) I’ve always thought of Star Trek as presenting a positive view of the future – not one without troubles but one where we’ve used science to eliminate most of the problems of mankind – Hunger (with replicators) – Sickness, with advanced medicine – where those of an adventurous spirit can team up and venture outwards.

Star Wars (to me) is more mythic in nature, and darker. Very much the hero’s journey. Anyone can be the hero who stumbles or is pulled into adventure, and rises to meet his challenges, becoming a hero.

290. Curious cadet - September 24, 2013

@284. Hugh Hoyland,
“The place wasnt the same without you.”

Clearly you and I have been reading a different message forum …

291. MJB - September 24, 2013

B O B !!!! Welcome back! This site isn’t the same without you.

Congrats on Sleepy Hollow! Our whole family enjoys it.

Are you going to turn your Twitter account back on?

292. THX-1138 - September 24, 2013

Good deal. Orci is back. Now everybody just take a deep breath.

May I suggest that before we all hit the “say it” button that we re-read our comment. Check for spelling perhaps. See if what we have written is cogent. And we ALL could try to be a bit nicer to each other.

Let’s try to hold ourselves to a higher standard and be PATIENT.

293. crazydaystrom - September 24, 2013

@283. Phil
LOL!

This is my phaser! This my gun! One is for fighting and one is for fun!

Actually that would have to be a nuKirk line. LOL!

294. P Technobabble - September 24, 2013

228. THX-1138
Well said. I raise my glass…

295. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

I’ve put a lot of thought the last few days into what exactly was going on in the movie. I’ve read a lot of comments trying to sort it out from those who had ideas – I’ve asked my friends who saw it what they thought, and those who’s answer was longer than two words – didn’t know. I’m talking about intelligent people – writers themselves, some of them.

I work with a lot of beginning writers and tell them – if no-one understands your plot, it’s your fault, not theirs.

But I think this is what I’ve put together: Marcus found Khan, put him to work, holding the other Augments hostage. (This was obvious.)

Marcus wanted to incite war with the Kiingons. (Obvious.) Khan began a long game, designing torpedos that were also cryochambers. (Why didn’t he just unfreeze them if he had access to them? Cool factor. Note: I didn’t think it was cool, I just assumed that’s the reason.)

Here’s where it starts to fall apart for me: Did Khan think his people were discovered and killed? Evidence for: the attack on the Archive might have been revenge. It’s also possible this was simply a gambit to get Marcus to chase him and use the torpedos ahead of schedule, so his manuever wouldn’t be discovered. Kind of ridiculously complicated, but makes more sense than revenge.

Reason for the attack on the Star Fleet admirals/captains…to further incite Marcus. (If so, it worked.) Marcus may have had plans on the table to sacrifice a Federation ship – the Enterprise…? all along. He moves his plan up when Kirk volunteers.

Khan – not knowing Marcus has decided to sacrifice Kirk and the Enterprise, goes to the Klingon home world, to await his people via long range torpedo delivery system (I assume there was some other plan in place to awaken the others and take the Vengeance so they would have Star Fleet’s most advanced war ship – but this seems not to have happened (for the ease of the main characters? Marcus was tough but a ship full of Augments would be hard for the writers to handle and the plot was already pretty convoluted.)

And maybe to make friends with the Klingons – although his firing on the Klingons would seem to obviate this last bit.

Khan thinks on his feet when he learns Kirk has the torpedos, manipulates him with a flat out lie about thinking his people were dead.

Spock and Kirk get the one step ahead of Khan they need to be to keep Khan from taking over the Federation.

How’s that?

296. Marcus - September 24, 2013

277. Marja, “Linguistics, in which Uhura is trained, involves the structure of language[s]; e.g., Japanese is constructed in a different way from English. Some codes are language-based [not the "coding" of which you write]; some simpler ones are text-dependent.”
—————–
Outside of the HTML and XHTML codding used for web development (advertising), the majority of today’s computer languages are based upon a variation of pseudo-code and algorithms. While they do carry certain language styled elements, the premise is to make ‘purely logical’ mathematical statements. Uhura uses her ‘ears’ to distinguish changes in vowel and continent sounds. Mathematics uses the opposite side of the brain. Again, I can debate this subject into oblivion. I can borrow examples from psychology, biology, science, and information technologies to prove my point.

Around this point in “Star Trek: TOS” history, Uhura was using an earpiece to filter out various ‘vocal’ sounds. Uhura’s console would look like an audio board. She would have ‘point and click’ features that would control base, tremble, noise, background static, etc… Uhura would not be using mathematics.

297. Marcus - September 24, 2013

Fixed: Uhura would not be using ‘complex’ mathematics.

298. MJB - September 24, 2013

@292 THX-1138:
Right on!! Be nice, be patient, respect each other’s point of view.

299. MJB - September 24, 2013

@ boborci
Is @evilboborci on Twitter…you? You can tell your Trekmovie friends the truth!

300. Crewman Darnell - September 24, 2013

@TrekkieJan

Your synopsis made somewhat more sense than what I remember watching.

301. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

And I just figured out that Khan may have installed something on the Vengeance to initiate the wake up procedure for the Augments, but that fell through because of Marcus’ change of plans, due to Kirk’s volunteering.

So in a roundabout way, by killing Kirk’s mentor – his family – he brought about his own downfall.

302. Ensign RedShirt - September 24, 2013

@ 292 THX

Completely agree. Cheers.

303. Marcus - September 24, 2013

rofl….

I need to make a correction. Mathematics and language are processed on the same side of the brain. My apology.

304. Ahmed - September 24, 2013

@267. MJ

Welcome back my friend :)

305. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

@ 296. Marcus – September 24, 2013

Please see my post #272 as it has shown up now. Uhura doesn’t just “use her ears,” and based off of the TOS clip I linked to, she never has only just used her ears. She has a very technical minded brain, and she would be a computer engineer for very good reason. You are just wrong. I can pull from more examples to make my point too…

She’s a Xenolinguistics Specialist (meaning she knows lots of languages and how various species communicate) AND she’s the ship’s chief Communications Officer (which means she’s got heavy STEM training in that area, electrical engineering, computer engineering, audio engineering…). This should not be hard to believe because she literally works in Engineering (hence the red uniform…) The great thing about Uhura is that she uses both sides of her brain, and not just the left or the right.

306. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

@304

So, like I said before. No one was really leaving because pretty much everyone is back… Lol.

307. TrekkieJane - September 24, 2013

And last…okay maybe putting the augments in the torpedos was the only way to smuggle them aboard the Vengeance, to there awaken and secure the ship for future takeover plans. (Not just cool factor.)

It would have worked – Marcus was fooled about the torpedos and only reacting to the crisis, due to the timing of Khan’s attacks. Maybe he suspected something was up, vis a vis the torpedos and the Vengeance and instinctively kept them apart, but I think that’s reaching.

*Phew* – okay maybe most of you had already figured this out – I just saw the movie so I’m months behind.

Still don’t buy the Mickey sacrifice – sorry – unless he really hated his job and his co-workers. Let’s remember Snowden didn’t kill anyone.

308. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

297. Marcus – September 24, 2013

Fixed: Uhura would not be using ‘complex’ mathematics.

” 303. Marcus – September 24, 2013
rofl….
I need to make a correction. Mathematics and language are processed on the same side of the brain. My apology.”

You never know. A Computer Science degree (I believe) requires math through at least Calculus, and isn’t the minor for that degree usually physics (which can require complex mathematics)? I think she might not have to do complex math all of the time because that’s one of the great things computers can be programmed to do and at a faster rate, but I think she would know complex mathematics. That’s for sure.

Also, the diplomatic side to her Xenolinguistics Specialty, I think, would require that she be able to “read” emotion and facial expressions in various species because communication is not only in what is said, but how it is said. I do believe that uses the opposite side of the brain while the other side would be geared towards understanding that is said and, like you mentioned, using math.

Anyway, I think she’s multi-talented, and there’s no reason to reduce her to simply being a “pair of ears,” because I think she’s far more that that and always has been…

309. Crewman Darnell - September 24, 2013

Is it “Trekkiejan” -or- “Trekkiejane”?

310. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

309 – Crewman Darnell

Sorry, it’s TrekkieJan – I must have mispelled in on this site once and the autofill on my computer never forgets.

311. Curious Cadet - September 24, 2013

@301. TrekkieJan,
“And I just figured out that Khan may have installed something on the Vengeance to initiate the wake up procedure for the Augments, but that fell through because of Marcus’ change of plans, due to Kirk’s volunteering. So in a roundabout way, by killing Kirk’s mentor – his family – he brought about his own downfall.”

This is good too.

The fact you have to work so hard to fill in the holes is the biggest problem with the movie and with K&O’s script. I can’t entirely blame them, because Abrams seems to be pushing to cut any extraneous material that might slow the forward momentum. However, Orci has stated intentional ambiguity in the past, and I have no reason to assume he’s not continuing in this practice. The fact that I can make a solid case for Marcus masterminding every move Harrison makes until Kirk arrives on Klingon, and only have Orci’s off-screen statement of intent to counter that seems to confirm it. I also give Orci the benefit of the doubt that there were competing agendas — Orci’s desire to tell a rogue military/home-grown terrorist story, and Lindelof’s decsire to tell a Khan story, combined with Abram’s desire to tell a fast-paced popcorn movie.

But I also think you’re making more out of this thing than needs be. What is left on screen and said makes perfect sense to me. Never questioned it, except in connection with other problems. Khan, a guy we saw go off his rocker bent on revenge in TWOK, got caught trying to smuggle his people out in torpedoes he designed for the purpose, went AWOL and then sought revenge for their presumed murder, as promised by Marcus should Khan ever disobey him. Once he attained it, he fled to a place inaccessible to the Federation. Marcus then uses the torpedoes against Khan, washing his hands of the whole Botany Bay episode, while also starting his war. Could it have been done better, and make more sense? Sure, in this case a lot better, but that’s true of almost any movie. The point is this works fine.

@307,
“Still don’t buy the Mickey sacrifice”

Because its not a sacrifice, it’s coercion. We just dont see it. How many movies show us a simple blackmail victim, or the relative of a hostage doing something horrific to protect their secrets, save their life or lives of a loved-one? I mean wasn’t that the premise of the Saw movies — save yourself by killing your friend first? The biggest hole in the Harewood bombing, is what motivates him to follow-through after his daughter has been cured? The only possible answer: the death of not only his daughter but his wife as well — he made a deal with the devil and now must pay the price. And equating Harewood with Snowden is not accurate. I get no sense Harewood was trying to expose anything, but he certainly had to realize what he and Section 31 did was not exactly of the higest ethical standards. He had a moral crisis — save the lives of his innocent daughter and wife, or destroy a small group of people who are guilty of morally questionable deeds, including himself. Snowden did what he did for himself, I doubt anyone coerced him, nor did he likely think through the ramifications the revelations would have on his co-workers, or likely himself — his was no suicide bombing, he planned to get away as he had nothing else to lose.

The problem here, is we don’t know any of this when Harewood drops the ring into the glass. Only in hindsight do we realize what his choice was, and by then we’ve been run over by the locomotive that is STID and completely forgotten about it. The deleted scene which we will never likely see featuring Harewood’s wife an daughter a year later may well have put Harewood’s dilemma in context for us. Even so, again it’s a pretty common storyline — father does something horrific to save a loved one. While it may be cliche, I don’t know why it wouldn’t work on that basis alone.

312. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

@331 – Curious Cadet

Agreed one shouldn’t have to work so hard.

And yes, your version makes sense too. I had read, I believe, an Orci comment saying there was enough info in the movie to figure things out, but hadn’t seen the ambiguity comment. I think, seeing your explanation, both comments could be true. There’s enough to figure the story out at least two ways.

Sorry about the Snowden remark – someone above compared the situation. I also disagree with the comparison.

I think it’s more like that as you said, Harewood was coerced.

And of course the scene establishes the magic blood – which is the old “make every scene accomplish two things.” It still makes me groan. Because now I have to tell writers they still can’t use magic blood – even though they saw it in Star Trek.

I’m actually glad Abrams is leaving, with all his Trek misconceptions – especially re: Kirk. It does give me hope for the third.

313. Crewman Darnell - September 24, 2013

In my opinion, it’s a bit naive to imagine nuances within the STID story, where it appears the writing was so very cut and dry. For example: If Khan’s “magic blood” is transferable to Tribbles, which (presumably) have different blood and DNA, does the “magic blood” mean that death is no longer a game-stopper in nuTrek? That’s just for starters. How about the distance between Earth and the Neutral Zone, let alone the distance between Earth and the Moon? I’m sorry to ask, but seriously, it took how many years between Trek 09 and STID to write this cheesy rip-off of WOK? Sorry. Call me a “hater” but the writing of this movie totally *sucked.*

314. Marcus - September 24, 2013

308. Spock/Uhura Admirer,

Its interesting. Unlike the computer pioneering generation (pre-1998), the majority of the new generation is only interested in ‘point and click’. I agree that Uhura may know some coding fundamentals, but I think that type of job would be for a science and/or engineering officer.

Carol Marcus was on the planet, for she had intimate knowledge about the torpedoes. Bones was on the planet, for he was needed for any possible mishaps. If the life in side of the torpedo was put in danger, the away team would have needed a doctor on scene.

Picard and Kirk were known for sending senior officers on these types of away missions.

315. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

@313 – I think that Transwarp Beaming, the sloppy way communicators are used and magic blood will rush this series towards decanonization – at least in the minds of the fans. They’re writerly conveniences that seriously undermine the story-telling possibilities of this continuum. From now on, every thing that happens, someone will have to ask, why didn’t they transwarp beam? Why didn’t they use magic blood – why didn’t they call halfway across the galaxy on their Nokia Galactic mobiles?

316. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

@Marcus

Uhura is an Engineering Officer. Her branch of Engineering is Communications, and so she’s the Chief Communications Officer. I would guess that all of the communications people report to her because she’s not doing it all by herself. Remember in ST09, when Kirk went to go get her in the “beer room,” and how she was surrounded by other comm officers? I’m guessing they all report to her know since she took the Head Comm Officer’s place.

Let’s just break this down. For this timeline, it looks to me like Red = Engineering (Uhura and Scotty), Blue = Science (that’s McCoy, Spock, and Marcus), Yellow = Command (Kirk, Sulu, Chekov).

And I don’t get what you mean by your statement about today’s generation only being interested in “point and click.” I’m pretty sure that people going to schools to get STEM degrees aren’t spending four or more years of their lives (and a considerable bit of money) to learn how to “point and click.” So, just what are you saying, if I might ask?

317. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

meant to say “report to her now…”

318. P Technobabble - September 24, 2013

313. Crewman Darnell
Forgive me for interrupting, but that you, apparently, hated the movie is pretty obvious. But to add that “the writing sucked” is rather unnecessary. It’s that sort of “bull in a china closet” attitude that caused things to get ugly in the first place. You make some thoughtful, considered points which are worthy of discussion and debate, but I don’t see any reason to be condescending. Yeh, everyone here’s a “big boy” who can take a bloody nose, but to what end? I have to, again, tip my hat to THX above and reiterate the concept of considering what we say before posting. I don’t mean to get snotty with you but couldn’t we all benefit from a bit more civility? And you can call me an “old hippie” but I still believe in Peace and Love.

319. Marcus - September 24, 2013

316. Spock/Uhura Admirer,

Communications officers are operation and/or tactical officers.

Link: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Communications_officer

320. MJB - September 24, 2013

285. The Keeper

~sigh~

321. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

@Marcus

“Carol Marcus was on the planet, for she had intimate knowledge about the torpedoes. Bones was on the planet, for he was needed for any possible mishaps. If the life in side of the torpedo was put in danger, the away team would have needed a doctor on scene.”

Sorry, I didn’t focus on this part in my last response. Carol had intimate knowledge of the torpedoes because her father gave her “unlimited access”, but Spock is at the very least just as gifted in this field as Carol, and perhaps more so. That is perhaps why he called her “redundant,” but I do think that since they’ve added her she can serve a good function as the weapons person while Spock attends to other matters…

Bones was needed because, as a surgeon, he has the technical expertise with his hands to do very precise work, and that’s why (I believe) in the original timeline you had that scene where he helped Spock with the torpedo and that’s what the scene in STID with Carol and McCoy was based off of. Only, in STID Bones didn’t really do anything but get his arm caught… And what do you mean about the life inside being “put in danger”?? At that point they didn’t know what was inside of the torpedo, and that’s why they were opening it up, iirc. And “in danger,” you mean like blowing up? If that happened, everyone would be SOL, including McCoy.

Anyway, Uhura definitely has far more than just “basic” computer and coding skills. She’s on Starfleet’s flagship as the Head Comms Officer, not working the Geek Squad at Best Buy… Just saying…

322. Marcus - September 24, 2013

321. Spock/Uhura Admirer,

If you have someone who knows about the system, while you have an emergence, you do not wait to train someone who doesn’t. Carol Marcus knew all those torpedoes, and there was no time to train Spock.

323. Marcus - September 24, 2013

Fixed: Carol Marcus knew all ‘about’ those torpedoes, and there was no time to train Spock.

324. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

” 319. Marcus – September 24, 2013
316. Spock/Uhura Admirer,
Communications officers are operation and/or tactical officers. “

Okay, so it says that being a Communications Officer is a “specialized” occupation. That’s right, and the “specialty” is within Engineering. Operations/Tactical officers also fall under Engineering. Think of it like how doctors can specialize in a certain area, but they are all doctors. Uhura is an engineer, but she specializes in Communications and Xenolinguistics.

Chekov, if we want another example, is the Head Navigator. Navigation is a part of Command because it deals with commanding the ship in terms of mapping out courses and trajectories, etc. Sulu, as the helmsman, commands the ship in terms of controlling where it goes and how it gets there. So, they are both in command (or wearing the yellow uniform) even though they don’t Command the entire ship, like the Captain does (Kirk).

Is any of this making sense? I do believe there is a logic involved as to why certain people wear certain colors…

325. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

@322 Marcus

Spock didn’t need training. He could have done well on his own, but he had other things to attend to, and so having Carol there with Bones made sense. I am not arguing that Carol didn’t know all about “those” torpedoes. I even said as much when I said that she did know because her father gave her “unlimited access” to that information. So, in this instance, she was the “logical” choice.

Are you going to answer any of the rest of what I said?

326. Jose - September 24, 2013

I am pretty disgusted with the cultural fundamentalists that have made me embarrassed to be a Trek fan.

The same things happened when the rock group Yes reformed with Trevor Rabin as the lead guitarist/control freak.

An incredibly vocal minority came out and spewed their venom on how the 1980′s Yes is not really, Yes. Trevor Rabin ruined Yes…..Sound familiar?

Oddly, Yes is a PROGRESSIVE rock band which implies striving to do things that have not been done before. 90125 was very different to what came before. There are several breakthrough recording techniques that were implemented in the studio.

Yes, went through a reboot with that album. The became relevant with the 1980′s generation.

Because of 90125, Yes did not die. 90125 was Yes’s # 1 selling Album ever! My 17 year old son loves 90125.

Star Trek needed to be reframed for the millennial generation. The cold war allegories needed to be replaced with modern more relevant allegories. Star Trek needed to find balance between “tell me” to “show me”.

Yet the same mental dysfunction that was and still is on display about the 1980′s Yes is now on display within the Star Trek community. The hard core Star Trek Fundamentalists, who are in the minority, are out and about spewing their venom about how JJ ruined Star Trek…. blah blah blah

You can tell by their tone, they were looking for a reason to hate. Which by the way goes against part of what Star Trek has always been about.

This vocal minority, has this view of don’t mess with my Star Trek. However, that fundamentalism is by it’s very nature is SELFISH. These people would rather Star Trek not drastically change even if it means it is no longer relevant for generations to come. Again that is SELFISH!

I loved STID. My children love the new movie. It is a common place where we can connect. I am forever thankful for that.

Star Trek is relevant for them and now they ask me which TNG and DS9 episodes are cool.

The cool thing is that if I want to be nostalgic and watch “In the Pale Moonlight” for the 1000th time I can do that and so can the Star Trek Fundamentalists.

327. Gary 8.5 - September 24, 2013

Welcome back Bob!
And, Sleepy Hollow is the most fun I have had being scared in a long time .

328. Curious Cadet - September 24, 2013

@312. TrekkieJan,
“And of course the scene establishes the magic blood – which is the old “make every scene accomplish two things.”

Unfortunately, there’s no payoff. I’m surprised you didn’t hit on that immediately, or maybe you’re still catching up. ;-)

It would have been so much more elegant to have McCoy connect the dots between the girl miraculously cured in the medical journals, Harewood, Harrison and Khan, rather than randomly injecting a dead tribble with Khans blood to “see what it would do”. What kind of science is that? By the time the tribble comes to life, who remembers the sick little girl at the beginning of the film, who was dying but certainly not dead?

I have to believe K&O set out to do something interesting with the Harewood subplot, but in the end it just got muddled in the Khan fiasco. I mean all the elements were there, they just got assembled strangely with pieces missing …

329. Jo - September 24, 2013

I really dont want Benedict to come back to Star Trek. He can do much better than this lame series. No more Khan please. Let Benedict escape.

330. Gary 8.5 - September 24, 2013

No escaping neccessary Jo.
Benedict has said he had a lot of fun with the role .

331. Red Dead Ryan - September 24, 2013

Yes, I would like to warmly welcome back MJ and Bob to the site. The place was just simply not the same without you guys!

332. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

@#326

“This vocal minority, has this view of don’t mess with my Star Trek. “

Uh, that was the case with the 2009 movie, but not so much with STID from what I can tell. Actually, the TOS fans seemed to like it, while many of the new fans and fans of the spin offs didn’t. Perhaps STID created its own new fans as well and that makes up for any potential loss.

I personally don’t want the new Star Trek to be a recreation of TOS because that would be, as Spock said, “redundant.” What I liked about ST09 was the new dynamics that were created and I hoped they would continue. STID seemed pretty retro, and even many reviewers (and even many of those who said they liked the film) said this.

“Star Trek is relevant for them and now they ask me which TNG and DS9 episodes are cool. “

Sounds great.

“The cool thing is that if I want to be nostalgic and watch “In the Pale Moonlight” for the 1000th time I can do that and so can the Star Trek Fundamentalists.”

Well, just speaking for myself, I am not a fundamentalist in the least. My favorite Trek was DS9. And if they decide to reboot it one day, cool. If they change up the dynamics, like say Dax and Obrien have the close mentor/student friendship instead of Sisko and Dax, well then okay. If I want to see “my” Dax and “my” Sisko, then I’ve got them at home already. So, no sweat. That’s why I never understood people saying how this timeline just *has* to be and there can’t be anything different.

I think the main complaint with STID was that they created this new timeline and these new dynamics for these new(er) characters, and then they didn’t do anything with that. They just reverted back to what had already been done before. I hope they can build on what they did with ST09, but if not, then I’ve still got that film. So, no sweat.

Still, seeing this team go on to have a bright, new adventure would be nice. I enjoyed Spock/Uhura and I enjoyed seeing the Kirk/McCoy friendship as well as the various bonds forming within the team. I do hope that can continue…

333. boborci - September 24, 2013

227 cygnus 1

lol!

334. Stephan - September 24, 2013

@boborci:

Great to have you back. :) One Question: Are you in involved in the process of finding an new director or is it JJs decision or more something Paramount will do?
Any idea when they will anounce a director or a release date or anything?

335. bassmaster22 - September 24, 2013

Meh. There’s this thing in Hollywood (not sure what to call it) that demands we keep rehashing the same old franchises. Yes, this includes Star Trek. Does everything need to be twisted, reintepreted, rehashed and recreated?
I for one am jumping off the reboot bandwagon. Star Trek has several hundred hours of TV and dozens of movie hours. More than any one generation has gotten out of any franchise.
And we need to keep making them why? Star Trek doesn’t owe anyone more stories at the expense of the old ones. Nor is anyone being forced into remaking them.
Time to put the originality back in the movies. Stop feeding the reboot monster with your money. Demand better. Or maybe you enjoy a world where the only movies in rotation for eternity are Trek, Star Wars, Hobit, Spiderman, Batman and Superman. Over, and over, and over, and over.
You get the idea.

336. Marcus - September 24, 2013

@Spock/Uhura Admirer,

Do you know where the confusion comes from? When everything shifted in the “Star Trek: TNG” series, the departments and their functions were reorganized. Within Star Trek: The Next Generation”, Uhura’s job was given to anyone currently on the bridge. Picard use to ask Worf, Ricker, Data, Wesley, and anyone around to adjust the universal translator, open hailing frequencies, etc… I think her job become somewhat obsolete.

Even though the chief of security shares the same colors as an engineer, the officer doesn’t necessary know anything about engineering. I think people are making the assumption that Uhura was cross trained.

337. bassmaster22 - September 24, 2013

BTW, us “fundamentalists” are anything but less than 5%, a small minority or any other incarnation of not representative of the greater fan base.

We can all make ourselves feel better by insisting that those who disagree with us are part of a fringe, tiny group of misinformed people that hate change. I know the forums are ablaze with people who veil that annoying demand for quality Trek in a cloak of “hating change.”

Or, we could accept it may be more of a case that there are still a few people left who want to see the bar set a little higher than the one you’ll trip over on the way into a Star Trek reboot.

338. Gary 8.5 - September 24, 2013

335.
I want Star Trek movies to continue to be made so that I can continue to see them .

339. Marcus - September 24, 2013

@316 Spock/Uhura Admirer, “Remember in ST09, when Kirk went to go get her in the “beer room,” and how she was surrounded by other comm officers?”

—-

She was promoted to the bridge after that scene.

340. Marcus - September 24, 2013

Something to note:

Within the movie “Star Trek: Generations”, Chekov’s career path had moved towards the science tier. Checkov changed his career towards science and not towards engineering.

341. MJB - September 24, 2013

338. Gary 8.5

I’m with you on that one. I’d even go watch a new Berman-Trek movie if one was made. But I am perfectly happy with NuTrek. I’ve watched my blu-ray 3D version 4 times now. My only complaint is that we have to wait 3 years for the next installment. STID had top-notch special effects, the best Enterprise interiors since TMP (except for the Bud-plant), great actors and a fun script.

Bob Orci: Do you think you and Alex can go to an island somewhere and put in a few all-nighters to finish the script so that we can get ST3 in 2015??? Oh, and how about hiring the “Gravity” director? I can’t wait to that movie at our local IMAX theater.

342. Keachick - September 24, 2013

Wow – It certainly is a new day. It seems that the real Bob Orci has returned to us – welcome back, Bob!

Re: posts #237 and #272 – I agree with both.

@ Bob Orci –
Re #264 – Dick, eh? Well, yes and no. However, I do bow to your own assessment of what you wrote here. I am assuming you have sincerely reflected on the issues and determined that you were being a dick. There is only one person on this entire planet who can truly know this and that is you.

As a matter of observation, you can take *small comfort* in the fact that you can be, at times, not the only dick. Unfortunately, far from it. The world is littered with them and it has nothing to do with anatomy.

Anyway, we will all try not to be dicks…

#295 – The problem with your synopsis is that some of it is not what is told in the movie. You have misunderstood.

#328 – “who remembers the sick little girl at the beginning of the film, who was dying but certainly not dead?”

I will have to watch that scene more intently to be sure, however my impression was that the girl had just died or was very close to death. She had been *kept on life-support* until Harewood could give her the serum, which Harrison/Khan had assured him would save his daughter.

“to “see what it would do”. What kind of science is that?” That is what scientists have always done. It is called experimentation. It is by “seeing what it would do” is how we find out stuff…

* Something which happens to people who have actually died but have offered to donate their organs…Work is already being in trying to reactivate dead/dying brain cells or reroute normal brain function to undamaged cells. Anyway, that is my lay understanding.

343. Gary 8.5 - September 24, 2013

340. That is true.
But I think that it had something to do with the fact that De Kelley and Leonard Nimoy did not choose to be in Generations .
And Chekov picked up the slack for both Spock and MCoy .

344. Basement Blogger - September 24, 2013

@ 253

This sycophant, according to Cygnus, says,

“Welcome back Bob Orci!”

If you haven’t seen it, here’s Bill Maher’s hilarious piece dealing with haters on the Internet. Courtesy of Mediaite and HBO. There are people that tell the Cheesecake Factory to bleep off? Yeah, I know that stuff is bad for your heart. :-)

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/maher-goes-off-on-twitter-hate-who-wastes-their-time-telling-cheesecake-factory-to-fck-off/

345. Phil - September 24, 2013

@293. Yeah, with our newfound embrace to revisit the glory days we could write our own Trek movie mashup……

Star Trek: Full Metal Strangelove

It would be fun to see R. Lee Emory chewing some Starfleet rookie a new one….

For more than a year, ominous rumors had been privately circulating among high-level Federation leaders that the Klingon Empire had been at work on what was darkly hinted to be the ultimate weapon: a doomsday device. Intelligence sources traced the site of the top secret Klingon project to the perpetually fog-shrouded wasteland below the surface of the Klingon moon Praxis. What they were building or why it should be located in such a remote and desolate place no one could say.

346. Cygnus-X1 - September 24, 2013

312. TrekkieJan – September 24, 2013

Your plot synopsis makes as much sense as anything I’ve read or can think of. I mean, hiding your buddies in torpedoes that are going to be fired during a battle with the Klingons is like something out of a comic book. Not too many things that could go wrong with that plan, ay.

—I’m actually glad Abrams is leaving, with all his Trek misconceptions – especially re: Kirk. It does give me hope for the third.—

Abrams really is better suited for Star Wars. I mean, not the original Star Wars triology, but the action-based, CGI-loaded, shallow, superficial prequels, which I’m sure is more along the lines of what Disney wants. Though probably with simpler, more coherent plots than what Lucas wrote. Now we just need some new writers for Trek to go with the new director and we’re in business.

347. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

@Marcus #339

Exactly. And you’ll note that she was working in Engineering department before she was promoted. That’s where Kirk went to get her.

336. Marcus – September 24, 2013
@Spock/Uhura Admirer,
Do you know where the confusion comes from? When everything shifted in the “Star Trek: TNG” series, the departments and their functions were reorganized. Within Star Trek: The Next Generation”, Uhura’s job was given to anyone currently on the bridge. Picard use to ask Worf, Ricker, Data, Wesley, and anyone around to adjust the universal translator, open hailing frequencies, etc… I think her job become somewhat obsolete.

I don’t think there is any confusion. We’re not watching TNG. We’re watching a new time line set in the TOS era.

Uhura’s entire job function wasn’t given to just anyone who was currently on the bridge, either. Simply “opening” hailing frequencies and adjusting the settings of the universal translator are basic tasks, and if you think that was the entirety of Uhura’s job, then I believe you are sadly mistaken.

Her job function didn’t become obsolete; it just became spread out among other positions because of restructuring. I think there was more cross-training happening in the Berman era of Trek and that makes sense. Communications is a vital system. Even still, it seemed like it was split between the Engineering and Science branches.

Jadzia, a Science officer, used to be called to do on the bridge what Uhura did. However, Miles, an Engineering officer, used to be called to fix the systems that Uhura used to be responsible for when there was an issue. This only further makes my point that Uhura was trained in both Science and Engineering on top of Xenolinguistics. However, in the TOS era, her job fell under the Engineering branch.

Even though the chief of security shares the same colors as an engineer, the officer doesn’t necessary know anything about engineering. I think people are making the assumption that Uhura was cross trained.

You seem to assume that the Chief of Security is only muscle. Security involves securing not only the people of the ship, but also the ship’s systems. I would imagine that some computer science/engineering would be needed for that with a focus on network security/management.

Who has access to what? Which access codes are valid and which are not? Improving upon the security system’s defenses by testing the system against viruses and hacks… That’s all a part of security that I think the Chief of Security oversees and manages, working closely with the captain and first officer. So, once again, I believe you are wrong. I don’t think anyone is making assumptions so much as people are looking at what would make sense.

I don’t know. Bob is back. Maybe we should ask him what he thinks because our arguing isn’t going to change what they decide.

@boborci

Assuming you’ve glanced at our discussion, is there any kind of approach you plan on taking with the Uhura character in the next film? Will she just be a “pair of ears” or will she be more than that? I personally think you all established her as more than that, as TOS canon suggests she is. I’d really like to know.

348. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

The only area of security where I think a major security task would fall to someone else would be maintaining the ship’s shields. I think that would be more Scotty’s department than anyone else’s.

349. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

And by “department” I mean job, because it all falls under the “engineering” umbrella in this case. I think Scotty and a team that reports directly to him would handle that.

350. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

@346. Cygnus-X1

“I mean, hiding your buddies in torpedoes that are going to be fired during a battle with the Klingons is like something out of a comic book. Not too many things that could go wrong with that plan, ay.”

Exactly! That’s why I really think my breakdown must be the correct one – Khan never meant for the torpedoes to be fired by anyone – he just needed them loaded aboard the Vengeance for whatever was there to wake the Augments to get them a ship. I’m surprised they had any payload at all.

As for lying to Kirk (and the audience) – he’s the original unreliable narrator. He was probably hoping Kirk would wake the Augment – who would then wake the others.

Khan probably wasn’t even very angry at Marcus for using him – as he must have been using Marcus from the get go. (Angry enough to crush his head – maybe for his presumption.)

He blew up the archive, as Kirk suggests, to get everyone in one place. I’m not sure what he gains by trying to kill Marcus here – on the other hand, was he trying? I feel like if he was, Marcus would have been the first to go.

I’m now starting to hope they wake him up for 3 – what a dangerous ally he would actually be.

And yeah.

351. Star Trek has a bold future ahead! - September 24, 2013

First of all, thank you TrekMovie.com for hosting this.

Bob –
I’m a fan born in 1966; my parents watched from the start to finish of all three seasons. I didn’t discover Trek until 1st grade… and the love of the show was firmly established.

I don’t doubt your passion for the shows/movies.

After reading various comments, and seeing people discuss how a TV show isn’t feasible — after all, it doesn’t fit into the television programming of today (Breaking Bad, Modern Family, etc.) I think too many people (and network management) are jaded.

Star Trek isn’t about dysfunction; it’s about adventure. It’s more than social / societal storytelling. It’s about mankind’s progress to the stars. The discovery of the unknown.

But you know this.

It’s my dear hope that the next Star Trek movie will not be a war epic, a la Star TrekWars. Nor a retread of an original series episode, nor another visit to Earth. I want to see the Enterprise truly where no man, er… no one has gone before. And let’s see Kirk and crew being faced with a no-win scenario that requires trust, honor and sacrifice. A new situation which demands that the Prime Directive is faced head-on, that Kirk must work with untrusted allies (who are actually worthy of trust).

Let’s see more of the Kirk-Spock-McCoy troika.

Let’s see Kirk and Spock forced to work with Kor, Kang, Koloth or other “adversaries” who aren’t enemies, but adversaries, challengers, misunderstood, etc. — and the situation brings them together without stereotypical “one of them is a bad guy/saboteur/hidden agenda.”

Make honor something to be admired and shown on-screen.

Let’s see a new Federation starship (damaged in battle, or an incident, or accident) which puts Sulu again to the task of captaining that starship.

Mix and match so we see more interactions between the characters, the idea that the bridge crew is stronger together than apart — and how the command crew is the best in the entire Federation.

Because Star Trek is also about showing where humankind is going, how it can succeed, how it can triumph. Especially in the face of a new adventure…

Keep up the good work, Bob. :)

352. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 24, 2013

Thanks Ahmed and Red Dead Ryan,

Good to be back!!!

353. MJB - September 24, 2013

Ahhhhhh….All is right at TrekMovie.com. Except for the Anthony mystery. Sure would like to know – at the very least – if he is okay.

354. Marja - September 24, 2013

267 MJ!!! Hot diggety! Glad to see you have returned! Welcome back and let’s hope the trenches aren’t so trench-y but more … trenchant, without the sharpness : D

287 Phil, Maybe that’s what we need in the installment, Kirk on inspection of the ship while space sergeant Hartman lays into some unsuspecting propulsion’s mate … ‘Today… is Christmas! There will be a magic show at zero-nine-thirty! Chaplain Charlie will tell you about how the free universe will conquer the Klingons with the aid of God and a few of Starfleet! God has a hard-on for Starfleet because we kill everything we see! He plays His games, we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before Starfleet! So you can give your heart to Jesus, but your a$$ belongs to the Starfleet! Do you ladies understand?’ Hilarious! I think most people know this – R. Lee Emory was a gunnery sergeant and drill instructor in the USMC – I imagine it was easy for him to improvise such lines after doing it for XX years (because they come up with new ways to insult recruits every week or so)! I like your Starfleet version ; )

292 THX-1138, “May I suggest that before we all hit the “say it” button that we re-read our comment. Check for spelling perhaps. See if what we have written is cogent. And we ALL could try to be a bit nicer to each other.” … I think good debate etiquette would apply very well here. No ad hominem attacks, against the other poster or people associated with producing/writing Trek. As you say, let’s all take a deep breath before we post our comments. AGREED.

293 daystrom, “This is my phaser! This my gun! One is for fighting and one is for fun!” I remember this one … hee-hee … I’d love to see a “flashback” to Plebe Summer for the Bridge officers : ) I’m getting quite a laugh thinking about Lt. Spock, new instructor, puzzling out these lines that he has to say to incoming cadets! “Only two things come from Oklahoma … steers and qu–” [analytical frown] “There are many more living beings issuing from Oklahoma than these two, and there is no need to repeat a slur ….”

355. Marja - September 24, 2013

295 TrekkieJan, “Marcus was tough but a ship full of Augments would be hard for the writers to handle and the plot was already pretty convoluted.” It would also be really hard for Marcus to handle 72 Augments. He durn well knew better [if he’d ever seen Khan in action] than to wake up 72 of those badasses. … I’m not sure if Khan planned to make friends with the Klingons, or take over their central government … with 72 Augments strategizing and conquering, it might have been possible.

I think you’re absolutely right about him lying to Kirk about his “dead” family. He may even have quickly scanned Kirk’s records once he had a look at him – [eidetic memory?] and learned of Kirk’s loss of his father.

Great [and generous] synopsis. : )

356. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 24, 2013

We need to get DM Duncan back now!

357. Marja - September 24, 2013

296 Marcus, Outside of the HTML and XHTML codding used for web development (advertising), the majority of today’s computer languages are based upon a variation of pseudo-code and algorithms. While they do carry certain language styled elements, the premise is to make ‘purely logical’ mathematical statements.
The key words in your statement are “today’s computer languages.” Also, who is to say what sort of code Khan may have used in programming the torpedos? He’s 300 years old in an advanced society. Perhaps he keyed some of the language styled elements on the Farsi or Hindi or Pashto idioms of the mid-20th century. Besides, if Uhura and C. Marcus were working together Marcus may have understood some of the mathematical statements/algorithms. Borrowing examples from IT begs the question, “what will IT look like by the 23rd century?”

Uhura uses her ears to distinguish to distinguish changes in vowel and [consonant] sounds. Yes, that is part of her knowledge base. She has also studied morphology which deals with the formation of consonants and vowels. Even a classical singer of today is educated in our human vocal structure. A linguist would also know the physical structure of the language apparatus [in Humans, the pharynx, larynx, throat, hard and soft palates, tongue and teeth]. This would be a valuable part of translation and linguistics in an exploratory Starfleet. Meeting a strange new alien species by audio only, she would be able to draw some conclusions about the structure of the aliens’ language apparatus.

Around this point in “Star Trek: TOS” history, Uhura was using an earpiece to filter out various ‘vocal’ sounds. Uhura’s console would look like an audio board. Yet Star Trek (a) takes place 200+ years in the future; and (b) in the AU, the incursion of Nero’s ship from 129 years in the future, the existence of Section 31 [spies] and the necessity – in the eyes of the Federation and Starfleet – to advance their technology as quickly as possible would lead to developments as speedy as, or quicker than, those leading to the invention of the atomic bomb during WWII.

Cadets would also receive mathematics training. As a Communications specialist Uhura is trained in Comms engineering and would have received advanced maths education. Engineering involves math, and plenty of it; by their time 200+ years in the future, I’d venture to say that today’s advanced IT coding and the like would be simplicity itself.

We have to remember, everyone on that Bridge is a ‘geeenius’ compared with us mere mortals of today. Sulu says in the first film that he has a doctorate in Astrophysics, is trained in interstellar navigation, and has attended advanced seminars in subspace theory [which Uhura would have also, as communications travel through subspace] and related disciplines.

People feel some strange need to “reduce” Uhura to a contemporary telephone technician or radioman. I mean no disrespect to those contemporary and admirable professions. But as a Starfleet officer 200+ years in the future, and a graduate of Starfleet Academy, which apparently accepts only the most advanced students in the world[s], I think she’d be strides ahead of us lil’ ol’ 21st century humans. Except maybe Stephen Hawking and ‘Sheldon Cooper’ of ‘The Big Bang Theory.’

358. Gary 8.5 - September 24, 2013

Welcome back MJ!

359. Marcus - September 24, 2013

347. Spock/Uhura Admirer, “Exactly. And you’ll note that she was working in Engineering department before she was promoted. That’s where Kirk went to get her.”

——

Uhura didn’t work in engineering. Kirk caught up with her in the lower decks.

360. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - September 24, 2013

@357. Marcus – September 24, 2013

She was definitely working when KIrk found her. She was seated at a console. If you don’t believe that set of workstations were part of the Engineering department (including Communcations as part of Engineering), what area do you think that set of wrkstations belonged to?

361. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - September 24, 2013

… and I see I’ve failed basic proof reading in no less than 3 places in the above post – sorry…

362. Marshall - September 24, 2013

What now people are saying that Uhura should have been working with Carol on the Torpedo instead of Bones?? Really? Lol

The torpedo scene is one of the few things Bones was actually able to do in this film (seeing as these films don’t seem to care to show his importance to Kirk and Spock and their friendship) and you want to throw Uhura in there instead??

Bones didn’t get much, but I’m thankful to Orci and co that they gave him what he got. Now let’s work on getting him up to his rightful place in the next film.

363. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

@253 Marja

Good point that he might have known Kirk’s background – had access to Star Fleet records – and knew how to play him.

The one thing Khan may not have been lying about was, “Is there anything you would not do for your family?”

But again, it works against him. Because lacking any other mentor at this point, Kirk takes Khan’s words to heart and sacrifices himself for his (remaining) shipmates – his own remaining family. And Kirk’s sacrifice motivates Spock to capture Khan.

I hope I’m not being generous – if it made less sense than this I really don’t want to know.

364. Keachick - September 24, 2013

#226 – “I tend to get bogged down in the plot holes, but their frequency would appear to be a consequence of the backwards, plot-based drama as you mentioned. The writers are trying to work out ways for events to happen, how to get from A to B to C, instead of having the plot be a result of the characters’ motivations.
In ST’09, Spock behaves very much out of character by becoming stressed out and ejecting Kirk off of the ship”

Here is the problem as to why many people have difficulties…

People get bogged down with trivia, confusing what they do not understand or do not like with a plot hole. More importantly, they seem not to get/understand certain fundamentals of existence, life as we know it. This leads to a false/faulty perception. This has been clearly demonstrated by the statements that I have quoted above.

Everything is conditional upon something else. It is called conditioned existence. Even existence, as we understand it, is conditional.

In order to show a character’s motivation, a stage has to be set whereby certain events occur, to which the character will respond in a variety of ways, depending on what has occurred. How this individual behaves depends on his physical capacities (or incapacities) and mental and emotional factors. These, in turn, often depend on how the person has learned to respond to similar situations that may have occurred in the past. One should not discount the operation of a person’s innate instincts and intuition in some circumstances either.

Showing a character’s motivations, ie what makes this person respond in one way as opposed to another, has to depend on a sequence of events that directly and/or indirectly affect him in some way. Without such events, eg the blowing up of London’s so-called Starfleet Library Archive, it would be difficult to assess anyone’s motivation for being in a certain place, asking certain questions as to who, why and what relating to the event and furthermore see what actions could be taken, if any.

“instead of having the plot be a result of the characters’ motivations.”
Except, that in STID’s case, the plot WAS the result of one character’s motivation, Admiral Marcus, starting with when Marcus first found the drifting ship with people in cryostasis…This actually renders your complaint invalid.

The point is – People’s motivations, nor the events that people are directly responsible for bringing about, do not happen in a vacuum. This also applies to people who are not responsible for bringing about a particular situation, like an earthquake. For example, in the case of an earthquake, what motivates people to want to help those who may be hurt and others not to help, but instead, flee or simply do nothing? The reasons can be many and varied.

365. Marcus - September 24, 2013

355. Marja,

Even though we will always have a point and click (or touch screen) interface, the codding behind everything will become more complex. Look at what happened when HTML 4 evolved into HTML 5. While certain structural tags were added for simplicity, the other aspects of the language had become more involved.

Within the next ten to twenty years, the next technological evolution will not involve information technologies. Just an example — Instead of having a steering-wheel in your car, you will have a “full” touch-screen interface that controls speed, direction, heating, ac, etc… Our vehicles will have an interior similar to a shuttle craft. Within the center of each home, people will use a single interface to control windows, doors, heating, ac, lighting, electricity wattage, etc… When your grandchildren sit down in school, the desk will be replaced with a touch-screen desk. Kids will use encrypted datapads (not iPads) to transfer their work from school to home. As a result of kids using the internet to cheat, schools will create a closed off system that will give them access to libraries, museums, etc… All the information on the closed off system will be access from both home and school, but it will be regulated by a nation wide educational hub.

366. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

362. Keachick

“People get bogged down with trivia, confusing what they do not understand or do not like with a plot hole.”

I respectfully disagree. A plot hole is a plot hole. Star Fleet has Transwarp teleportation capabilities and know Khan’s last coordinates. They don’t use these to immediately apprehend Khan because…it would be a short movie. But it creates a plot hole. A real one.

Does it ruin the movie for you? No? Great!

It might for someone else. I feel that whatever throws someone out of a movie is valid for that person. It feel it’s belittling to call it trivia.

“More importantly, they seem not to get/understand certain fundamentals of existence, life as we know it. This leads to a false/faulty perception.”

This is a little metaphysical for me. We may never know all the fundamentals of life, but we understand fiction pretty well – three basic conflicts and all that.

It’s very common to find these plot-driven stories in thrillers – that’s why people often complain that they have sort of wooden characters. They do.

Science Fiction, since the 60′s, has favored a more character driven story, for the greater part. (There are still SF greats who write mainly hard SF or science and plot driven stories.)

Star Trek has largely been character driven in it’s history – that’s why the characters here feel a bit yanked about (to some of us.) When the writers decide Pike has to die to motivate Kirk – I’m honestly not sure if I’m using this expression correctly – but it’s sort of the tail wagging the dog.

367. Colin - September 24, 2013

363

As my nation becomes more segragated between the House of Have and the House of Want, I think the people who will benefit from some of the changes you mentioned will be the former. I think if the latter get any of that technology that it will be hand-me downs (“donations”). As for the infrastructure changes needed, I wouldn’t hold your breath if you live in the United States. Money for infrastructure is tied in political squabbling.

Personally, I hope that when the time comes when people are “babysitting” their cars that they will have been given a course in what to do whan tha technology fails. I don’t want to consider the alternative.

368. Colin - September 24, 2013

362

Keachick

A plot hole for me is them meeting at the Daystrom Conference Room. I would have written where they meet in a bunker-like structure and John Harrsison (Khan) has camouflaged himself or has recruited a volunteer to drop off a bomb that takes out a majority of the attendees. I think the former has more potential.

369. Marja - September 24, 2013

272 SUAdmirer, I can’t believe I forgot that. In Radioman School [which I disenrolled from b/c I couldn’t exceed 11 wpm in Morse Code – how embarrassing for the daughter of a Ham Radio operator!], we transcribed line after line of 5-digit code. That’s how most official military messages were aurally broadcast back in 1978. [Along with teletype – anyone remember that?] The codes were then translated by senior petty officers or senior officers [depending on the level of secrecy] using the current SECRET directives – which, back then, were printed.

312, TrekkieJan, Well, perhaps an interesting story could come out of “magic blood” if it had the “Khan” effect on someone previously benevolent [the effect that McCoy joshed Kirk about – “feeling despotic?” &c.] [Then again, my fic standards may be quite different from yours; I like to play “what if …?” in the sandbox.]

313 Darnell, the “magic blood” could be commandeered by Section 31 [as was the transwarp beaming device] for “Federation-wide Security” purposes. Or it could be destroyed as being something outside the Federation’s ethos. The Tribble … the differences in physiology … perhaps in the rush of things it was glossed over or they thought we might not notice. Or maybe they said “Awww crap!” when they saw the final cut. How about the distance between Earth and the Neutral Zone, let alone the distance between Earth and the Moon? I also have a problem with warp travel and the vast distances and no idea of how much time it takes the zippy new Enterprise to get from place to place. I wish they would have Kirk make log entries so we know it’s a different stardate or how many hours have passed. As for the distance b/t Earth and the Moon, I recall Sulu saying they were 24,000 KILOMETERS from Earth. Considerably less distance than miles. As for the rest of your post, we must disagree. As Bob Justman used to say, “Gently and nicely yours ….”

314 Marcus, Bones was on the planet, for he was needed for any possible mishaps. If the life in side of the torpedo was put in danger, the away team would have needed a doctor on scene. You may have missed Ahmed’s post above. They did not know there was life in the torpedo until they got the thing open. Bones was there b/c they needed someone with a “surgeon’s touch.” I think any of the engineers would have done, b/c they are used to using fine motor skills also, but McCoy was there because he didn’t have enough scenes in the movie ….
328 Curious, It would have been so much more elegant to have McCoy connect the dots between the girl miraculously cured in the medical journals, Harewood, Harrison and Khan, rather than randomly injecting a dead tribble with Khans blood to “see what it would do”. Indeed, and a good brief conversation for him to have with Kirk and Spock. … I have to believe K&O set out to do something interesting with the Harewood subplot, but in the end it just got muddled in the Khan fiasco. I mean all the elements were there, they just got assembled strangely with pieces missing The Tribble experiment was a little embarrassing. Though I was happy to see it alive : ) …. As for the muddling, I’m afraid a good 5 – 10 minutes were ditched for the final cut in favor of the rush rush rush ACTION! Or the writers made their script exactly to time but Abrams wanted to cut some things to show more [sigh] ACTION! He’s a great director, but I’m not too fond of the final cut version of the story.

335 Bassmaster, It is said that all modern stories were already told in Shakespeare’s day. While I agree that many old cartoons TV shows and movies don’t need to be released as “remakes,” and nor do many movies from the ‘70s ‘80s and ‘90s because they were simply average, not great, I have had a LOT of fun out of ST2009 and STiD. They brought me back to fandom. Enjoy the few pieces of Trek you like. It seems you’d rather not see any more Trek from anyone, so I say farewell; LLAP.

341 MJB, I am perfectly happy with NuTrek. I’ve watched my blu-ray 3D version 4 times now. My only complaint is that we have to wait 3 years for the next installment. STID had top-notch special effects, the best Enterprise interiors since TMP (except for the Bud-plant), great actors and a fun script. I love the new Enterprise, except that weird concept of Engineering. I liked the Warp Core and the design of the Warp Chamber, I just didn’t care for the huuuge vastness of dark, vat-laden space. [Nor Chekov’s sudden, magical appearance just in time! to save Kirk and Scotty … I could have bought it if he’d been shown nearby beforehand.]

I, too, am bummed we have to wait three years; I wish they’d filmed these puppies back-to-back and released one every two years … I agree the actors were great and the script was fun and emotionally involving [albeit with a few plot holes and far too much violence and destruction for Yours Truly]. I love AUTrek and STiD for those latter reasons. Pike “reading Kirk and Spock out,” Kirk’s sense of entitlement that crashed and burned, Spock’s confusion over Kirk’s notion of friendship, Uhura’s concern for an apparently suicidal Spock, his declaration [Vulcan style] of love for her, Khan’s trickery [although I did not like his transformation into a psychokiller; I think he should have been more ‘elegant’ than that], McCoy’s worry for Spock, then Kirk … and the acting, jiminy, I loved the acting. There were a couple of scenes that just broke my heart. I and several other people in the audience were sniffling. And the music – lovely.

I do have some concerns about the “Rube Goldberg” plotting I mentioned earlier – that the emotions the characters feel make them fulfill elements of the plot, IAW current scriptwriting standards for the now-tiresome Summer Blockbuster formula. O please let Star Trek come out in September or October of 2016. O please O please O please.

370. Marja - September 24, 2013

Oops; my last paragraph at #368 should not have been in italics [well, perhaps I can claim it is for emphasis]! The words are mine own.

371. Gary 8.5 - September 24, 2013

Bones helped to defuse the torpedoes.
He saved Khans people.
And he brought Kirk back from the dead .
Not too shabby for one film .

372. Marja - September 24, 2013

365 TrekkieJan, A plot hole is a plot hole. Star Fleet has Transwarp teleportation capabilities and know Khan’s last coordinates. They don’t use these to immediately apprehend Khan because…it would be a short movie. But it creates a plot hole. A real one. It might [ruin the movie] for someone else. I feel that whatever throws someone out of a movie is valid for that person. It feel it’s belittling to call it trivia. I agree with you on the transwarp beaming thing, but remember, Marcus wanted to kill off Khan’s people. He could have done it differently for sure, but as you say, “short movie”!

Apparently there are a lot of things that threw a lot of people out of the movie. Plot holes – I can respect viewers’ judgement on the larger of those – but some people nitpick it to death. Perhaps it is belittling for me to call it nitpicking or for Keachick to call it trivial. But IMHO it’s Star Trek. Trek has ALWAYS had plot holes.

Those of us who enjoyed the movie for the most part [excluding giant plot holes, magic blood and Death-Violence-and-Destruction to excess] are rather tired of being “trivialized” ourselves – we’re found mentally wanting by those who gnash their teeth that it “isn’t Trek.” It isn’t Trek according to THEM, but it’s pretty good for me, seeing Trek back on screen, and being back in fandom. (My statement on the judgemental folk does not refer to you, BTW. But there are plenty of people who think we’re morons because we enjoyed the film.) Many more casual viewers are not aware of the ways to properly plot things for the most discriminating of people so have little objection. These are the folks who see the movies “for fun” … more serious fans like us have fun debates about the films. And some enjoy Retconning as I do : )

373. Keachick - September 24, 2013

#362 – “A plot hole is a plot hole. Star Fleet has Transwarp teleportation capabilities and know Khan’s last coordinates. They don’t use these to immediately apprehend Khan because…it would be a short movie. But it creates a plot hole.”

What I meant was that what people sometimes think is a plot hole is not one at all. It has become something of a catchphrase that has been often used to describe what is not understood or not liked. That is a fact.

What we have been told is that transwarp beaming capabilities are not that reliable. It has only been used on two occasions – first when it was used two people onto the Enterprise and one of them ended up in water tubing. The second was when Harrison/Khan used his own device, that he had developed just for his own use. Why do you assume that others, as in the minimum of five people who did go get Khan, could have successfully used his device or similar? There is also indication that this was a one-way trip for Khan and a dangerous one at that.

It just might have been possible for just Kirk and Spock to use transwarp beaming to Kronos if they were just going to kill him. Then again, this would not have brought about the war that Marcus had always wanted.

Bob Orci – In a way, Starfleet not using the same technology as Khan used to get away, in order to go after Khan, does appear to be a bit of a plot hole. Is TrekkieJan correct to call this a plot hole? How do you explain this apparent anomaly in the story?

As I was commenting on Cygnus’s post, I actually realized that STID was not so plot-driven as being driven by one man’s motivation in particular, Admiral Marcus, and what occurred as a result of this man’s primary motivations and objectives.

Besides, Bob Orci, in the podcast interview, said that how he started working on a story is to first establish a theme and philosophy…

374. Marja - September 24, 2013

367 Colin, Perhaps we can RetCon that to “Marcus called the meeting in the Daystrom Conference Room vice the usual bunker in the same building”? The bunker could have temporarily been “out of commission” per Marcus’s direction. And remember, he wanted to have death & destruction so people would be motivated to support his Vengeance initiative. He wanted to kill off Khan (and his people), who’d been useful creating the weapons systems and the Vengeance, AND he wanted to start a pre-emptive war with the Klingons. So all in service of “Vengeance is mine!” sayeth Marcus.

375. Gary 8.5 - September 24, 2013

370.I must be a moron, I enjoyed it too!

376. Tom - September 24, 2013

Glad to see everyone strolling back in.

My wife has NEVER liked sci-fi or anything even close.
Got her to go to Trek 09 and she liked it which is amazing since i was shocked she even went.

She really liked Into Darkness and is now totally engaged in Sleepy Hollow.

So Bob now that you are back I thought you should know, Great work!! Now we actually can share an interest in the same shows. She did like Amazing Spder Man so I have high hopes for #2. Then I can tell her it was also written by The Star Trek guys.

Oh and Bob please dont forget Bill and Leonard for the 50th!!

377. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

@379 Marja

Yeah, that was just an example of a real plot hole – the first one that came to mind. I didn’t personally have a problem with it.

I think less people would get hung up on minor things if they were engrossed in the movie.

I just read one fan’s dissection of the Battle of Hoth in The Empire Strikes Back – and how the Empire blew it badly. For 30 years fans didn’t notice because the scene rocks so much.

For my part, being a science nerd (I edit SF for a living) and really hating how they handle Kirk, I got off on a bad start with STID. With the first movie I didn’t realize how much I hated it until after several viewings. Oddly enough, through talking to fans here and with a certain amount of …whatever the opposite of fridge logic is…I’m actually coming to admire STID more.

Still hate the Kirk treatment and bad science, though.

378. Gary 8.5 - September 24, 2013

374. What were your objections to the science in STID and in terms of good/bad science how do the other Trek films compare?

379. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 24, 2013

“I just read one fan’s dissection of the Battle of Hoth in The Empire Strikes Back – and how the Empire blew it badly. For 30 years fans didn’t notice because the scene rocks so much.”

Yea, it’s to bad that the Battle of Hoth was not done in a realistic way, given that THE REST OF STAR WARS WAS SO INCREDIBLY FREAKING REALISTIC.

LOL :-))

380. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

@371. Keachick

“What I meant was that what people sometimes think is a plot hole is not one at all. It has become something of a catchphrase that has been often used to describe what is not understood or not liked.”

Okay I see what you mean now, I think. Non-plot holes are being lumped in with plot holes by people who just didn’t enjoy the movie. And it can feel like nitpicking.

I think everyone’s viewing of the movie is subjective – not everyone enjoyed it. I think the people who did enjoy it can sometimes take that a little too personally – or those who feel like they’ve forged a relationship here with Bob Orci can be offended for him. And that’s their subjective experience of the criticism too … so yeah. It’s all valid.

I really am done complaining – I just came back to see if anyone here – the last place I know where people are talking about the movie itself – could help me figure out the plot. And lo, they did.

381. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 24, 2013

Thanks Gary 8.5 — much appreciated!!!

382. Keachick - September 24, 2013

I was not trivializing people. It is that some people get caught up with the trivia within the movie.

For example, someone said that it was a plot hole that Harrison chose to call himself Khan (either because that is who he really was and wanted to known as). It is not a plot hole. People can call themselves anything they want. Harrison could have called himself Little Bo Beep but that would not have changed our understand of the story narrative so far or what this individual had done, which got him put in the brig. The fact that Harrison (or whatever name Marcus gave him) believed that Kirk should see what he did any differently because he is really Khan and not John Harrison, had as much to do with Khan’s own hubris as anything else. It was exposition of character, not a plot hole.

I recall someone referring to the fact that this film showed the Enterprise being in an ocean and rising out of same as a plot hole. Again, I don’t think it is a plot hole. Certainly, in the TOS TV series, it was related that the Enterprise could not withstand the forces of re-entry into a planet’s atmosphere (which is pretty silly), however, in this alternate universe, this Enterprise can withstand such pressures (an entirely sensible ret-con). There is nothing anywhere to say that space ships could not be made to cope with an underwater environment, at least, temporarily. Actually – why wouldn’t or couldn’t they?

383. Ahmed - September 24, 2013

@ 376. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – September 24, 2013

“Yea, it’s to bad that the Battle of Hoth was not done in a realistic way, given that THE REST OF STAR WARS WAS SO INCREDIBLY FREAKING REALISTIC.

LOL :-))”

LOL, that was good :)

Star Wars movies are never realistic nor it meant to be. They are just fun space action movies where we go to that far away galaxy & forget everything about Earth for 2 hours.

384. Gary 8.5 - September 24, 2013

379.
Well, if you accept the TAS episode, The Ambergris Element, as canon,
Then, it is perfectly feasible for The Enterprise to rise from the water.

385. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

“There is nothing anywhere to say that space ships could not be made to cope with an underwater environment, at least, temporarily. Actually – why wouldn’t or couldn’t they?”

It’s one of those pesky science things. Keywords: Vacuum, atmospheric pressure, redundancy. I expect a report in the morning.

386. Colin - September 24, 2013

Here is Wikipedia’s statement on plot holes:

“A plot hole, or plothole, a play on the word “pothole,” is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story’s plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot sometimes even contradicting itself. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

“While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story’s outcome. Plot holes are usually seen as weaknesses or flaws in a story, and writers usually try to avoid them to make their stories seem as realistic as possible. However, certain genres (and some media) that require or allow suspension of disbelief—especially action, comedy, fantasy, and horror—are more tolerant of plot holes.”

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole)

So, for me, yes the conference at the Daystrom Conference Room is a major plot hole. The attack moves the plot forward and has a role in the outcome of this story. The setting is not realistic. The writers treat the captains, first officers, and the admiral as if they were board room members who were responding to a terrorist attack on one of their assets. They didn’t treat them as the military officers of an intragalactic fleet.

For me, a trivial issue, and one that most people don’t think about is the radical change in appearance of San Francisco. In less than a hundred years, this city underwent a massive transformation. The event that changed this city might not have happened in the prime universe, as SF didn’t change as much.

387. Curious Cadet - September 24, 2013

@350. TrekkieJan,
“Khan never meant for the torpedoes to be fired by anyone – he just needed them loaded aboard the Vengeance for whatever was there to wake the Augments to get them a ship. I’m surprised they had any payload at all.”

I mean no offense here … but of course Khan never meant those torpedoes to be fired. I’m not sure why this was ever assumed by anyone, other than as we’ve been discussing, the script could be a little Swiss cheesy at points. Clearly Khan had to design a torpedo that made sense as to why it would have a compartment perfect for housing and powering a cryo tube. I mean, even if Marcus didnt look at the plans, a loyal Section 31 engineer would have. Since it’s not likely Khan fabricated and assembled these torpedoes himself, there had to be a payload. But obviously he had a plan about where they were going, and what he intended thereafter. But you havent really touched on the biggest hole in this whole thing, which is, how did Khan find, and then get access to his people long enough to transport 72 of them from their storage location and load them into the torpedoes, and what made him think he wouldn’t get caught? Obviously he did get caught.

So the question I put to you then, does your whole idea about sending them to the Vengence still make sense knowing it would be virtually impossible for Khan to pull this off? Doesn’t it make sense that Khan got caught on purpose? Or better yet, Khan was merely a pawn used by Marcus, and never got caught doing anything with his people?

———————–
“As for lying to Kirk (and the audience) – he’s the original unreliable narrator.”

Of course he lied to Kirk. I love the idea that he did his homework and concocted the whole story to gain Kirk’s sympathy. But did he lie about the torpedoes? Had Kirk said 60, or 80 torpedoes instead of 72, would khan have still been so eager to be arrested? What if Khan was planning a way to evacuate his people, Marcus secretly discovered it, and sent Khan on the assignment to destroy the archives by using Harewood’s weakness, then had him attack the Starfleet meeting, intentionally avoiding Marcus, who had him beamed to Kronos — the portable transwarp beaming device (ridiculous in its concept) was a phony, with a self destruct mechanism. Now Khan is stuck on Klingon wondering what the hell is going on, until Kirk shows up. Or maybe Marcus secretly modified these 72 torpedoes himself, this being his plan all along.

———————-
“Khan probably wasn’t even very angry at Marcus for using him – as he must have been using Marcus from the get go.”

Possibly, but then I’d say you don’t really know Khan. You haven’t even touched on his physical transformation. That alone must have made him angrier than Marvin the Martian.

I do like the idea that Khan was using Marcus from the beginning, but if that’s the case, Khan then had to assume correctly that Marcus would get his people on the Vengeance for him. That’s a big risk, but a daring one for the master tactician Khan, and one I’d expect him to take. Then obviously he would have a plan to get onto the Vengeance. What he wasn’t counting on was Kirk throwing a wrench into things, and Marcus sending the Enterprise instead of coming himself, the irony of course being that might not have happened had Khan not randomly killed Pike.

However, all of this speculation is trumped by Bob Orci telling us that is not what he intended. The irony is that what he intended is what caused all this speculation in the first place, because its not clear on screen.

388. Marja - September 24, 2013

385 TrekkieJan, I hope you’ll stick around, b/c I’m enjoying your posts, esp WRT writing : )

389. TrekkieJan - September 24, 2013

I’m off to watch TV with my daughter, but quick research found a good article about the science of STID by an astronomer. Warning: there is swearing: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/62867

How does it compare to the science of other Star Trek movies?
I would say previous movies had a better understanding of time/distances in space travel and the internal logic of the warp drive in Star Trek. They score about equally for time travel shenanigans. There have certainly been iffy sciency things in all the other movies – the youth rays of Insurrection, for example. But that’s kind of the fun of science fiction. :)

390. Phil - September 24, 2013

@382. In the strictest of terms, submergible Enterprise wasn’t a plot hole, it was a mistake. I’ve posted enough on the problems with it, but it is what it is and I’ve moved on. Anyone who’s obsessing with it is attaching more importance to it then it deserves.

391. MJB - September 24, 2013

When a starship becomes a submarine, then flip the switch on the shields. Why wouldn’t the shields protect the ship in submarine mode?

392. Curious Cadet - September 24, 2013

@387 Re: 350. TrekkieJan MORE^^^^

Yes, Khan was using Marcus from the beginning — that makes a lot of sense.

Khan saw an opportunity to exploit Marcus’ hopes. He played good little soldier, designed a built the biggest, baddest ship in the galaxy, engineered to be run with a crew of … wait for it: 72! (Recall from Space Seed, Khan needed the crew of the Enterprise to run a vessel so complex.) He devised the torpedoes to carry his people, but having no way to retrieve them, and knowing Marcus would figure it out and do exactly what he did on the Enterprise: load them on the Vengeance to shoot them at Kronos, where Khan would be waiting. Khan then attacked section 31, knowing it would result in the captains meeting, and knowing that Marcus would hold the captains meeting out in the open as bait to lure Khan in, where Marcus arranged to have Khan beamed directly to Kronos so he could destroy all of them in one fail move (witness the smile on Khan’s face as his plan worked perfectly). The Vengeance would then be used to covertly fire the 72 torpedoes on Klingon, and then blame Harrison (a rogue Starfleet agent) for the destruction (a la the Kelvins archives explosion). The Klingons would not care, and would strike the Federation and Marcus would have to defend giving him his war. However, when the Vengeance showed up, Khan would have control of it through his personal back door (seen in the Countdown comic). He would kill the crew, revive his people and then use the Vengeance to dominate the galaxy, one solar system at a time.

But Khan killed Pike and Kirk jumped in, giving Marcus an even better scapegoat on which to hinge the start of his war (the Klingons might just have backed off over one rogue agent who attacked his own organization first), leaving Khan to work on Kirk to find and then get control of the Vengeance.

393. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

”359. Marcus – September 24, 2013
Uhura didn’t work in engineering. Kirk caught up with her in the lower decks.”

Who’s to say that the lower decks of the ship aren’t a part of Engineering if that’s the case? It sure looked like he went to Engineering to me.

She’s literally sitting next to some kind of beer vat, and people nicknamed ST09′s engineering section “Bud-ger-neering” because it was shot at a beer plant.

@361 Obsessive

It happens to us all. And I agree with your post #360 and the question you posed there. Where else would she have logically been? The answers to that seems to me to be that she could have only been in Engineering.

@362 Marshall

No, people are saying that it could have made sense for Uhura to have been working with Carol in addition to Bones. At least that’s what I believe the proposal was. I’m all for giving Bones and Uhura their due in the next film.

”365. Marcus – September 24, 2013
355. Marja,
Even though we will always have a point and click (or touch screen) interface, the codding behind everything will become more complex. Look at what happened when HTML 4 evolved into HTML 5. While certain structural tags were added for simplicity, the other aspects of the language had become more involved. ”

You keep bringing up HTML, and I’m wondering why. All HTML happens to be is coding for web browsers. That probably doesn’t even apply to the type of coding structure that would be involved within a (space ship or) starship’s internal communications systems, ship-to-ship communications, or ship-to-planet communications. I’m also not quite sure as to what your point is with HTML 4 moving on to 5, either.

394. Cygnus-X1 - September 24, 2013

TrekkieJan, Keachick, Marja…and anyone else who’s interested,

Since we’re talking about what qualifies as a plot hole, why don’t we have some fun with it by turning it into a game?

And now, it’s time for…

————————”PLOT HOLE -or- BAD SCIENCE”————————

[For common reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

—A plot hole, or plothole, a play on the word “pothole,” is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story’s plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot sometimes even contradicting itself. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story’s outcome.—

OK, I’ll go first…

QUESTION #1: Khan flies a helicopter-type craft right up to the window of Star Fleet HQ, arguably the most important building on Earth, while Star Fleet’s top brass are convened there for a high level meeting. Khan’s rather slow flying craft is not spotted by radar nor by any sort of more advanced scanning equipment as it approaches the building and flies right up to the window of the meeting room without being noticed by anyone. The window of the most important building on Earth is made of glass or a glass-like substance which Khan’s helicopter craft shoots right through with ease. There are no defense systems in or on the building to shoot down Khan, nor do any Star Fleet flying crafts come to the aid of the people being shot up in the meeting room.

PLOT HOLE -or- BAD SCIENCE?

395. Bob R - September 24, 2013

Great interview. Insightful and candid. Bob ensured Star Trek will be around for years to come by making Star Trek appealing to long time fans and accessible to new fans of the franchise.

396. Marcus - September 24, 2013

393. Spock/Uhura Admirer,

I am using HTML as an example on how code changes within a short period of time. Its has similarities with current codding trends. If a coding structure similar to HTML can change drastically, within a ten year period, the programming languages we use in the deep future will be that much more complex. Starship computers ‘will’ have a computer language, which will make C++ look like a child’s toy.

Approximately thirty-three years ago (1980s), computers were run by a language called Basic. It was a base ten system language.

Can you imagine how many lines of coding starships would need, so its computers could control everything from warpcores to shields? Unless someone comes up with a easier language, the engineers of the future will have their handful. We will most likely need to invent a new math.

397. Marcus - September 24, 2013

fixed: hands full -not- handful

398. Gary 8.5 - September 24, 2013

I know very little about the feasability of the Enterprise being submerged.
But, I think it was very surprising way to introduce the ship in the sequel.
These movies are not meant to be paragons of scientific authenticity.
Dont get me wrong,
I think Bob and Alex do what they can to get it right when it comes to the science,
And they should whenever possible.
But, they also entertain and thrill and I am grateful for that .

399. Marcus - September 24, 2013

393. Spock/Uhura Admirer,

When it comes to us entering into the space era, I think that will arrive in the 24th to 25th century. If history has taught us anything, the current territories around the world will drastically change. Roman Empire started to dissolve after 500 years in existence, and then it completely ended after 1,000 years. United States declared its dependance 237 years ago. Within 263 years from now, the countdown timer starts to tick backwards. Unless we make some serious social changes, we may never make it past the 500 year marker. Most civilizations change (or end) after 500 year in existence.

400. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 24, 2013

Cygnus X-1,

You deliberately create a game her in which the user must pick only two alternatives — both of which are a negative criticism of STID. An intellectually honest game would have had a third category which could be called something thing like “Alternate Explanation,” which would have allowed the use to offer a different explanation.

That would be a real game without a foregone straw-man conclusion in which you automatically get to take another one of your potshots at STID.

And to be more specific, here is my example “Alternative Explanation:

- Khan, who had access to the highest level of starfleet clearances and codes, simply modified the defenses to not respond to his attack — he built in a classic workaround. Yea, that simple. Duh!

Sorry, I know that I did not provide you one of the two “bad STID” answers that you wanted to pigeonhole me into.

I will give you credit though, since Bob has returned, your rhetoric has decreased, and your methods at trashing STID are now becoming more sophisticated and subtle. Well done! ;-)

401. Marcus - September 24, 2013

Fixed: Independence -not- dependance

402. Cygnus-X1 - September 24, 2013

399. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – September 24, 2013

Is that your final answer?

(how did you know that Bob came back after you’d left this site in indignant protest? had you been monitoring these threads but just not commenting?)

403. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 24, 2013

@398

We’ll hit the “technological singularity” well before that all happens — probably in the next 100 years.

404. MJB - September 24, 2013

397. Gary 8.5
I thought it was way-cool to see the Enterprise underwater….and I thought the way they showed it coming out of the water was superb. Don’t show the whole ship…just part of it from the viewpoint of the aliens.
Another cool shot was the transition from the alien species drawing an outline of the Enterprise to the Enterprise gliding through space. How can you not like that? I thought it was thrilling and an excellent way to present the Enterprise to the audience for the first time (in that movie).
The more I watch STID, the more I appreciate it. Good stuff.

405. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 24, 2013

401. TrekToday reported the podcast, and so I came here to see if just perhaps Bob might return, and he did.

You sound disappointed???

406. Curious Cadet - September 24, 2013

@393. Spock/Uhura Admirer,
“she could have only been in Engineering.”

Just to interject here. I would suggest that Abrams didn’t even know where the scene with Uhura was supposed to take place. It was simply below decks, in a utilitarian “call center”. (though I would love to know where the novelization places it, which is presumably taken from the script) My guess is rather than build yet another set, Abrams decided to include it while on location at the brewery in a nondescript section. If anyone actually says, yes it was engineering, that doesn’t mean Uhura was an engineer, merely that is where the equipment was located. We don’t even know what all those people at duplicate consoles were doing. I believe that was more artistic license than anything — to show the transition of Uhura from the dank bowels of the ship (a mere cog in the machine) to the high tech prestige of the bridge where she was the shining star. It’s a Cinderella moment … “who can wear this Romulan language deciphering ‘shoe’”?

Also, the red colored tunic is defined in canon as “operations” division. They support everything from engineering, security, janitorial, tactical, communications, administrative and clerical posts such as yeoman, personnel officers, portmasters, etc. While they may or may not all have engineering degrees, they are not necessarily engineers, or work in engineering. Indeed in TMP, Uhura wore yellow and Chekov wore gray department colors, while Scotty had red. In TWOK, Scotty changed to gold, and Uhura and Chekov both switched to gray. Of course Uhura was communications and Chekov was not, so how those two are related is unknown, but certainly they were not considered engineers as Scotty was set completely apart.

Now this is a new universe so anything is possible. However, this idle speculation about whether or not Uhura should have been included in the disarming of the torpedo based on whether she had any prerequisite skills necessary to contribute to technology we know nothing about is sort of … forgive me — silly. Uhura got to do a lot of stuff in this movie, did she really need to be a part of the disarming of the torpedo as well? Or are you suggesting they simply should have not introduced Carol Marcus at all and had Uhura do everything her character did?

407. Jose - September 24, 2013

@332. Spock/Uhura Admirer

I love DS9 too. My youngest 12 year old son is named Benjamin Avery ####

408. boborci - September 24, 2013

376tom

thanks. and thanks to your wife

409. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - September 24, 2013

@395. Marcus – September 24, 2013

“Approximately thirty-three years ago (1980s), computers were run by a language called Basic. It was a base ten system language.”

You got me with the base ten… To quote Spock “that is illogical” as the fundamental unit in computing is the BIT (Binary Digit), hence the powers of 2 in computer architecture: 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit, 64-bit… As I recall, BASIC was originally developed to run on 8-bit computers.

Some aspects of Information Technology change and grow at breathtaking speed: some aspects – not so much.

The programming language COBOL was developed in 1959 with the first compilers running in 1960. COBOL’s primary use is within financial institutions, as well as within government organisations, worldwide. When I attended university in the early 1970s (studying Computer Science) we were told that COBOL was a dying language that would soon be no longer used. I spent the next 30-odd years of my working life programming in, primarily, COBOL…

Of course, the language grew over the years, but COBOL was always recognisably COBOL, no matter how old the code. I do hope, however, that it has finally gone to the great bit-bucket before the end of this century ;-)

Uhura does not have to be the computer expert Spock is (A7 level classification in the Prime Universe) but it’s quite conceivable she knows her way around the hardware and software associated with her speciality. We see her rewiring her console to rig a subspace bypass circuit in the Prime Universe (TOS: “Who Mourns for Adonais?). Also, as a communications officer, it is quite feasible she has training in cryptography, as well as her skills in linguistics. We have little actual knowledge of what are required skills and capabilities of a chief communications officer on a starship in the 23rd century, but I certainly believe it’s more than would be required for just a glorified telephone operator.

410. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

@396. Marcus – September 24, 2013
”I am using HTML as an example on how code changes within a short period of time.”

Okay, but the problem I have with that is that no one could have known how the web was going to develop, and it just morphs and morphs. That’s why the reactive changes in the coding, as well as various types of code, exist. Advancements in science and technology also exist, but incorporating those changes into well-structured administrations can be done carefully over time. In other words, there’s a control factor there that doesn’t exactly carry over to the way the web works.

I think when we are talking about the planning of a starship and its systems that a little more care can be afforded there. That’s not something that’s “open” to virtually any and every one, like the web is, and also subject to the same kind of “chaotic” (for lack of a better word) change that openness can bring.

So, I get your point. I’m just not sure that HTML is the best example, though. Thanks for the response.

411. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - September 24, 2013

@406. Curious Cadet – September 24, 2013

“It was simply below decks, in a utilitarian “call center”. (though I would love to know where the novelization places it, which is presumably taken from the script) ”

According to the novelization, Uhura is located at communications monitoring station 12, deck 4. Communications monitoring station 12 was occupied by a mix of junior officers and ensigns at that time.

412. Keachick - September 24, 2013

#394 – Interesting question.

Yes and No.

One thing that does give me cause to say Yes to Bad Science is the fact that the windows appeared not to be very shatter-resistant. Even today, modern highrises are being built with thick glass-type shock resistant plating, because of how the older style glass would splinter if buildings suffered serious seismic disturbances for instance. So I would assume that such use of this technology would be standard in a 23rd century Star Trek world.

On the other hand, it is possible that Harrison was using weaponry that had just been developed that could shatter the most resistant of building technologies. At this point, Harrison would still have had access to where new weaponry and small weaponized tactical aircraft were being developed, along with the very big Vengeance. Also, this helicopter-type aircraft may have had state-of-the-art radar and other surveillance jamming abilities. Even if it might have been a standard helicopter, he could have retrofitted it. After all, (prototype) *stealth* technology is a-happening today.

Another aspect is something the better half queried – why didn’t Khan just use a small missile or cluster bomb on the conference room? It would have been far more efficient and would have had a better chance of killing Marcus, as well as a lot more of the top brass. He would have had access to this kind of weaponry as well. I countered by saying that perhaps Khan was about creating panic, terror, fear as in – where, when, how, who will be next? Will it happen on a large scale or will he aim small? Who knows?

This whole scenario of the movie showing the attack on SF HQ does allude to what happened on 9/11, especially to the Twin Towers. Those two fuel-laden planes were able to fly under the radar, it seemed that no one noticed that they were veering off their original courses until it was too late…For many within the US and outside, it just did not even seem conceivable that such an event could happen, but it did. In many ways the World Trade Centre was more high profile than SF HQ. The SF HQ seemed to be pretty much hidden in plain sight.

413. Keachick - September 24, 2013

MJ – “You deliberately create a game her in which the user must pick only two alternatives — both of which are a negative criticism of STID. An intellectually honest game would have had a third category which could be called something thing like “Alternate Explanation,” which would have allowed the use to offer a different explanation.”

I did not realize that, but you are correct. In order to answer his slanted questions properly, I ended up saying Yes and No, because as you and I do agree on, there is an alternate answer. I typed my reply at #412 before I had read yours. See – we can agree on something…:)

414. Curious Cadet - September 24, 2013

@335. bassmaster22,
“There’s this thing in Hollywood (not sure what to call it) that demands we keep rehashing the same old franchises. Yes, this includes Star Trek. Does everything need to be twisted, reintepreted, rehashed and recreated?”

This is an excellent point with which I agree 100%.

However, like Shakespeare, there is no reason that new actors and producers can’t have a shot at reinterpreting the classic material, thus keeping the Bard alive for generation after generation. What better way to do it than re-imagine Star Trek, rather than the fan-based approach where they just swap out the actors and imitate the production style. I much prefer Abrams interpretation to that. TOS was a phenomenon of the time during which it was produced. Shatner will forever be that Kirk dodging papier mache boulders. I don’t want to see that time recreated. A lot has changed since then, and it requires new approaches, different kinds of stories, and fresh faces and new technology to achieve the same effect as did TOS in the 60s for a new generation. Would you deny them the opportunity to get to know James T. Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise?

What is the alternative? Create new shows from scratch, with brand new characters? Like TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT? Just use the same formula and stick new people in the requisite roles? The same stories retold in a different time with different made-up technologies? Or just stop making them altogether, and move on to a brand new concept that abandons everything Gene Roddenberry created and just call it Star Trek?

I happen to enjoy the fresh look at TOS. I don’t agree with all the choices the filmmakers make, but I’m happy to have it. Just because it doesn’t interest you, don’t deny it for the millions of others who find enjoyment in it, and the millions more who would have never watched an episode of Star Trek were it not for the current reboot. It’s far better to have that than have the franchise relegated to the annals of history.

415. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

”406. Curious Cadet – September 24, 2013
@393. Spock/Uhura Admirer,
“she could have only been in Engineering.”
Just to interject here. I would suggest that Abrams didn’t even know where the scene with Uhura was supposed to take place. It was simply below decks, in a utilitarian “call center”. (though I would love to know where the novelization places it, which is presumably taken from the script) My guess is rather than build yet another set, Abrams decided to include it while on location at the brewery in a nondescript section. If anyone actually says, yes it was engineering, that doesn’t mean Uhura was an engineer, merely that is where the equipment was located. We don’t even know what all those people at duplicate consoles were doing. I believe that was more artistic license than anything — to show the transition of Uhura from the dank bowels of the ship (a mere cog in the machine) to the high tech prestige of the bridge where she was the shining star. It’s a Cinderella moment … “who can wear this Romulan language deciphering ‘shoe’”?

Well, I’m hoping that Mr. Abrams did know where that scene was being filmed, and it looks as though Obsessive answered your question about the novelization. Based off of what she said, that sounds like it’s a part of Engineering to me.

Of course I’m not saying that her location on the ship determines whether or not she is an engineer. What I’m saying is that based off of her demonstrated skills in this timeline, and what I know of Uhura in the TOS timeline, she should be.

I’m not sure about the Cinderella moment thing because Kirk wasn’t doing “try outs” or “tests” to see who might “be the one.” He knew exactly who he needed and that he just needed to go and get her. So, that doesn’t quite seem the same to me. Also, unlike Cinderella, beauty and simple goodness ain’t gonna cut it when you move into the “prestige” of bridge. She was a “shining star” there because she was capable and qualified. Those qualifications didn’t just “appear” during the turbolift ride from her section of the ship to the bridge.

We also don’t know what her aspirations were, and her engineering training could have been based off of that. Often times, you can have the “degree,” or training, but not get your dream job right off the bat because you don’t have the experience, but you do have the skills. She had the skills, or at least from what he could tell the needed skills at the time, and so Pike promoted her. Come to find out, she was meant for the job. It can work like that sometimes.

Also, the red colored tunic is defined in canon as “operations” division. They support everything from engineering, security, janitorial, tactical, communications, administrative and clerical posts such as yeoman, personnel officers, portmasters, etc. While they may or may not all have engineering degrees, they are not necessarily engineers, or work in engineering. Indeed in TMP, Uhura wore yellow and Chekov wore gray department colors, while Scotty had red. In TWOK, Scotty changed to gold, and Uhura and Chekov both switched to gray. Of course Uhura was communications and Chekov was not, so how those two are related is unknown, but certainly they were not considered engineers as Scotty was set completely apart.

Well, I just went off of this: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_the_Star_Trek_uniform_colors_mean

It says that red is engineering and security. I think at least most of the people in Engineering are either engineers or not too far off from it. Why? Because, if you are going on a 5 year mission, anything can happen. The farther you get away from home, the less back up you have. People can die from illness, injury, etc. So, you need to make sure that every crew member on the ship has enough talent, skill, and training to be able to pick up any (or at least most) slack a loss can leave behind, kind of like how McCoy was able to fill in seamlessly for the Head Doctor that died during the Narada attack…

Simply put, I don’t think these are your average people. They are not even your average Starfleet crew. They are the flagship crew of Starfleet’s best ship: The Enterprise. That means they are the best. That includes Uhura, absolutely, just like Spock said when added her to the ship’s roster…

And I have to believe that the original crew are the best people possible for those jobs. Maybe that’s not what TOS was about, but I do believe that is a part of what these movies are about: Watching the best people for the job do exceptional things individually and as a crew in order to gain the best possible outcomes…

Now this is a new universe so anything is possible. However, this idle speculation about whether or not Uhura should have been included in the disarming of the torpedo based on whether she had any prerequisite skills necessary to contribute to technology we know nothing about is sort of … forgive me — silly. Uhura got to do a lot of stuff in this movie, did she really need to be a part of the disarming of the torpedo as well? Or are you suggesting they simply should have not introduced Carol Marcus at all and had Uhura do everything her character did?”

It’s not idle speculation and it’s not “silly.” I don’t agree that Uhura got to do “a lot of stuff” in STID, but right now that’s beside the point. It could have made sense for her, actually it would have made sense for her to be a part of the disarming of the torpedo if Marja’s scenario had been the case. It was not, so that’s why she wasn’t there, but the scenario has very good merit to it and I think seems likely.

Now, I’m not suggesting either way whether Carol should have been added or not. I don’t think that was what the discussion was about. Could they have succeeded without her? Yes. Did it make sense for her to be the one working on the torpedo with Bones based off of the situation and the fact that she was available to help out? Also yes. I already said before that in this case she was the logical choice, but I also don’t think she’s at all more qualified than Spock.

No one at any time suggested that Uhura do everything that Carol’s character did. The best Advanced Weapons Expert on the ship was (and still probably is) Spock, and so he could have, but he was attending to other matters. And since Carol had been over her father’s data and was skilled in weapons too, it made sense for her to help instead.

Either way, Carol or Spock, if Marja’s scenario were the case, then they’d have needed Uhura to help them complete their task along with Bones. That’s all anyone was saying, Curious.

416. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

” 407. Jose – September 24, 2013

@332. Spock/Uhura Admirer

I love DS9 too. My youngest 12 year old son is named Benjamin Avery ####”

Wow, that’s neat. :-)

417. Marcus - September 24, 2013

Not everything lasts forever. Regardless about how much we hold onto things, the reality is that things change for a reason.

People’s tastes also change. While having some great conversations with you people, I discovered that I need to face a harsh reality. During the past seven to eight years, my science-fiction palate has expanded exponentially. I have been exposed to so many new ideas. If I were to put the gene back into the bottle, I would be cheating myself an opportunity to grow.

“Star Trek” and “Star Wars” are great pieces of science-fiction, but they spoke to me during different parts of my life. As my palette continues to expand and grow, I have come to terms that “Star Trek” and “Star Wars” represents ‘my yesterday’. Since the franchise is not moving the timeline forward, cleaning the slate for new adventures and ideas, I have decided that I have to temporarily leave “Star Trek” behind.

Captain Kirk died in the movie “Star Trek: Generations”; therefore, the original series story had already ended. I cannot go back to change the past, nor do I think people should rewrite history. People only want to change the past, for they are experiencing some sort of regret. I do not have anything that needs to be changed.

Orci, I wish you luck on finishing your story. I hope you have many years of success. Its been a blast.

418. Phil - September 24, 2013

@391. The really short answer is no. I know there are people out there who believe that wrapping a force field around something solves all problems, but it just isn’t so.

Problems turning on the deflectors doesn’t fix:
– Compressive pressures ranging from 40 to 325 psi.
– Buoyancy
– Ballast systems
– Where are all the expelled gases from the ship going?
– Propulsion and control surfaces.

Regardless of all this, it’s on screen now, and it is what it is. No point in getting too worked up over it.

419. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 24, 2013

Sorry to see you go, Marcus. It was fun. Come back if you feel nostalgic…

420. C Zenko - September 24, 2013

Bob Orci,

Great job on Sleepy Hollow, I am enjoying what I have seen so far. When the big horned sheep demon flashed in front of the mirror, my wife darn near bounced off the couch. The cast is great, it is fun to watch.

Bob, a few questions. In each Star Trek movies TMP to Nemesis, what did you like about each, what didn’t you like?

STITD – I loved the beginning, with the crew saving the people from the volcano, I liked Pike, a wise character. And Admiral Marcus, a paranoid general from the cold war convinced that the Soviets are coming. Where I had a tough time was the seven minutes of The Wrath of Khan. I was okay with Khan being a character in the film, and thought TWOK scenes robbed you of doing something new and original.

Sleepy Hollow is alot of fun, I’d bet it is fun writing it, as you too get to explore the characters you have created. Please, explore our Star Trek characters we have grown up with, I want to walk away from the next film with something to think about. Kirk, Spock and McCoy on their own, had flaws, but they complimented each others weaknesses. Captain Kirk was a brilliant tactician, but was willing to talk if his ship and crew were out of danger. Kirk loved the Enterprise, but loved his crew more. I have been a loyal customers of Star Trek for many years, after seeing some Sleepy Hollow, I really think you can wow us. I am not a writer, but I am a customer. I look forward to more Sleepy Hollow, and look forward to your next Star Trek story.

Zenko

421. Adam Collings - September 24, 2013

This was a brilliant podcast. Loved listening to it. Lots of respect to Bob Orci

422. P Technobabble - September 25, 2013

Life, itself, is full of plot holes and there isn’t even a plot.

There isn’t a single Star Trek movie that didn’t have plot holes, so I don’t know if it’s entirely fair to rip STID apart.

Deep analysis of fiction doesn’t have the luxury of simply enjoying it. In fact how can we enjoy anything if we dissect it to the point that the only thing left is the space in which it existed?

423. MJB - September 25, 2013

422. P Technobabble
“Deep analysis of fiction doesn’t have the luxury of simply enjoying it.”

You hit the nail on the head. Some people simply can’t enjoy the feature or TV show because they get hung up on the so called “plot holes”. These movies are from the entertainment industry. Just sit back and enjoy the movie!

424. MJB - September 25, 2013

418. Phil
“The really short answer is no. I know there are people out there who believe that wrapping a force field around something solves all problems, but it just isn’t so.”

Really? Why not? Star Trek is make-believe fiction. Unless canon has already said the shields can’t protect the ship underwater then why not assume it does?

425. Hat Rick - September 25, 2013

Dear friends,

Sadly, I’ve been unable to draft an editorial stating the position that Star Trek is NOT broken, due to real-world concerns.

I also have not been able to read approximately 80 percent of the postings in this article.

But it occurs to me, upon listening to “The Age of Aquarius” on my iPod through a dedicated Sony mini-component system as follows:

Much as we, the fans, would like to think that we have a grasp of the reality of motion picture and television production, deep down, most of us couldn’t give a damn about that. We want only one thing:

To be inspired. To be uplifted. To experience an emotional high that only Trek can give us.

Let me say that one more time:

We want Star Trek to give us a religio-spiritual chill that takes us, figuratively, to the heavens.

Many of us (not including yours truly) may be rather unhappy with the recent movies because they are not sufficiently inspiring. They don’t hit you in the gut, even when you have a right to expect them to. You don’t feel that Star Trek has the power it did, when, perhaps, Khan in TWOK spit his words from the depths of hell against Kirk and his crew… or perhaps when Spock died in TWOK … or even when Kirk saw his beloved, beloved ship destroyed in TSFS.

And thus we — or some of us — are unhappy.

And I can see that. I can sort of understand that.

Maybe what we need is the kind of in-your-face Star Trek that tells the world exactly what it needs to know, and in a way that fufills its role as a weapon of emotional as well as philosophical power.

Perhaps — just perhaps — it’s really that simple.

Yours in Star Trek,

Hat Rick

426. Bob - September 25, 2013

The writers will never listen to fans. Never. So don’t waste your time.

427. TrekkieJan - September 25, 2013

@ 387. Curious Cadet

“I mean no offense here … but of course Khan never meant those torpedoes to be fired. I’m not sure why this was ever assumed by anyone, other than as we’ve been discussing, the script could be a little Swiss cheesy at points.”

No offense taken, at all. I’ve seen the movie once, in a room of people shouting at it – particularly at the end – and none of the comics. (I have a small collection of other ST comics.)

I was assuming there might be real danger because all kinds of alarms were going off when Bones and Carol Marcus were opening the torpedo on the planet – as though sensors were sensing explosive components? (Yes, that could be faked, I guess.)

Also, the torpedos actually did explode when beamed to the Vengeance. I’m assuming they didn’t have time to make actual torpedos from scratch and get the Augments out… but then, that makes about as much sense as anything else in the plot so apparently that is what they did. I guess.

And I’m not convinced of Admiral Marcus’ involvement in the bombing of the Archive. For all we know, Harewood was an Augment himself, unhappily obeying an order from Khan, when his fractured DNA gave his human daughter cancer which only Khan had the cure for.

We still don’t really know Khan was Khan. He lied about everything else. So did the filmmakers.

428. BobTrek - September 25, 2013

Bob Orci – I’m still here protecting your your freedoms. Are you still interest in having dinner in December? Much to discuss ;)

429. TrekkieJan - September 25, 2013

@Marcus
Eloquent post. Enjoyed discussion with you very much – thank you.

430. Curious Cadet - September 25, 2013

@426. TrekkieJan,
“I was assuming there might be real danger because all kinds of alarms were going off when Bones and Carol Marcus were opening the torpedo on the planet – as though sensors were sensing explosive components? (Yes, that could be faked, I guess.)”

Let me clarify — the torpedoes had to be real. It’s the only way Khan could get his people out. It was both a cover and a deterrent to tampering. My point was that he never expected them to be used, i.e. his plan involved rescuing them before the torpedoes could be fired. I don’t find anything implausible about that. It was a calculated risk.

————————-
“And I’m not convinced of Admiral Marcus’ involvement in the bombing of the Archive.”

Neither am I anymore, now that I’ve embraced the idea of Khan using Marcus to build the Vengeance and then delivering his people into his waiting hands via the torpedoes he designed for that purpose. However, it’s still better than the stated “lone-gunman” approach by Khan in the movie. (Oh the irony). I, and everybody else I think, forgot the Countdown comic in which April had back door codes to take over the Enterprise, foreshadowing Khan’s plan to take over the Vengeance — which he designed (I’m surprised you havent mentioned that yet, which has to be among the biggest eye rollers in the whole story). Just to catch you up, Marcus was Captain April’s first officer who covered for his staying behind on a mission to fight a battle against the Klingons for control of a planet. Kirk found him. April took control of the Enterprise, Kirk took it back, arrested him and turned him over to Starfleet, the story ending with Harrison getting security clearance into the archives building.

————————–
“We still don’t really know Khan was Khan. He lied about everything else. So did the filmmakers.”

I’ve been saying that since day one.

431. TrekkieJan - September 25, 2013

@428. Curious Cadet
“Just to catch you up, Marcus was Captain April’s first officer who covered for his staying behind on a mission to fight a battle against the Klingons for control of a planet. Kirk found him. April took control of the Enterprise, Kirk took it back, arrested him and turned him over to Starfleet, the story ending with Harrison getting security clearance into the archives building.”

Wow – that’s a kick in the … because in the book that sort of quasi-inspired this series, Best Destiny – George Kirk was April’s First Officer. (I think.) Poor Captain April. He deserved better. (So did George.) But very interesting. Thank you.

Loved the Lone Gunman reference.

Another reason to bomb the Archive – Khan could have been erasing his own tracks. (And maybe a room with 72 cryochambers full of …someone.)

Meeting in a glass walled room with no security, btw – I got nothing – except visually interesting, cool factor. I’ll give them this if I can have the Enterprise in space from now on, not under the frickin water.

What you say about Khan designing the Vengeance makes sense. It even makes the name make sense. Revenge for being driven off Earth – the first time.

That’s funny about the command codes – a direct reference to TWOK, where Kirk used the trick against Khan. It’s almost like *this* Khan saw the episode and the previous movie!

And wouldn’t it be ironic if the filmmakers were not lying about this not being Khan?

432. TrekkieJan - September 25, 2013

392. Curious Cadet

[i]Khan saw an opportunity to exploit Marcus’ hopes. He played good little soldier, designed a built the biggest, baddest ship in the galaxy, engineered to be run with a crew of … wait for it: 72! (Recall from Space Seed, Khan needed the crew of the Enterprise to run a vessel so complex.) He devised the torpedoes to carry his people, but having no way to retrieve them, and knowing Marcus would figure it out and do exactly what he did on the Enterprise: load them on the Vengeance to shoot them at Kronos, where Khan would be waiting. Khan then attacked section 31, knowing it would result in the captains meeting, and knowing that Marcus would hold the captains meeting out in the open as bait to lure Khan in, where Marcus arranged to have Khan beamed directly to Kronos so he could destroy all of them in one fail move (witness the smile on Khan’s face as his plan worked perfectly). The Vengeance would then be used to covertly fire the 72 torpedoes on Klingon, and then blame Harrison (a rogue Starfleet agent) for the destruction (a la the Kelvins archives explosion). The Klingons would not care, and would strike the Federation and Marcus would have to defend giving him his war. However, when the Vengeance showed up, Khan would have control of it through his personal back door (seen in the Countdown comic). He would kill the crew, revive his people and then use the Vengeance to dominate the galaxy, one solar system at a time.

But Khan killed Pike and Kirk jumped in, giving Marcus an even better scapegoat on which to hinge the start of his war (the Klingons might just have backed off over one rogue agent who attacked his own organization first), leaving Khan to work on Kirk to find and then get control of the Vengeance.[/i]

I’ve now had sufficient coffee to tackle this and…this is actually really good.

433. Curious Cadet - September 25, 2013

@432 TrekkieJan ^^^^

Inspired by your desire to bring some clarity. Your post @350 was the catalyst. I had not thought of it before, but Khan had to be using Marcus from the beginning, and not the other way around. Khan was never the victim.

After a year of working with Marcus, Khan surely knew how the man thinks. The fact Marcus gave Khan free reign around Starfleet proves he wasn’t the brightest bulb to begin with. Marcus was probably trying to figure out how to jump start the war with the Klingons, and Khan knew that and handed him a way. In fact the transwarp beaming technology was probably perfected for just such a scenario — Marcus just didn’t expect he would be using it with Khan. Maybe Marcus was planning on using it with Harewood in exchange for curing his daughter with Khan’s blood, which is how Khan found out about Harewood to begin with to use against Marcus.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t work with Orci’s intent that Harrison is “one of us”, compelled to terrorism to save his family. But then Khan was never, ever “one of us” despite his rebooted lily white complexion. So I have to reject Orci’s intent once I’m told Harrison’s name is supposed to be Khan Noonien Singh in favor of what canon tells us about him.

434. Curious Cadet - September 25, 2013

TrekkieJan, MORE^^^^

Indeed, Khan was a superior intellect and a master manipulator. The politics of ruling peacefully over a region comprising the MiddleEast through Asia, where massacres weren’t used to control the population speaks volumes about Khan’s abilities to understand and influence people.

I would go so far as to say Marcus was Khan’s AU McGivers … Marcus admired Khan as Kirk, Scotty & McCoy admit in Space Seed. But Marcus was further seduced by Khan, made giddy by the allure of a truly sadistic tyrant, an actual man from the 20th century, a period no doubt studied thoroughly and romanticized by Marcus (perhaps he even had model battle scenes set up in his basement). I would bet they spent time together outside of work, discussing military tactics as they played chess. Khan was biding his time, getting close to Marcus, earning his trust, learning how Marcus thinks — playing the long con — until all the pieces were in place to betray him, and set in motion the plan he helped devise and refine, over many nights in Marcus’ study over drinks.

435. Jack - September 25, 2013

“But then Khan was never, ever “one of us” despite his rebooted lily white complexion.”

And the idea (where Orci’s argument is leading, even though he probably doesn’t intend it to do so) that to be “one of us” you have to be white is somewhat disturbing, to say the least. How about being human? I think the TOS idea of Khan and his perfect followers coming from across the globe was far more interesting.

Trek was never just about exploration and it was never about a sunny, optimistic future free of problems. It showed that, yes, mankind as a whole solved a lot of problems — but it ain’t over. I worry that they’ll take all this griping to heart and make the next one gooey and sunny. Really, I think the only real problems, which even positive reviews mentioned, were the parts of the story that didn’t make a lot of sense, like Khan putting his people in torpedos… at it’s worst points, STID, felt like a bunch of fragments from various rewrites strung together. There’s suspension of disbelief, and then there’s suspension of logic.

436. dmduncan - September 25, 2013

257. boborci – September 23, 2013

Hahaha!

437. dmduncan - September 25, 2013

Bob, since you’re off twitter, I have to ask you here. Did you happen to become aware, after the Aaron Alexis shooting, of the US Army’s now disappeared webpage on “direct to skull” technology in which microwave devices can allegedly be used to project voices into the heads of human targets from a distance?

438. Spock Out - September 25, 2013

Mr. Orci,

Glad you returned. I loved the 2009 movie. The 911 angle with this last one wasn’t my thing but whatever. I look forward to hearing about where the franchise is going.

Spock Out

PS – Make the next one focus on Klingons and make it gorish….pretty please.

439. Basement Blogger - September 25, 2013

@ 394, 400

First, welcome back MJ. We need your logic in taking on the trolls, and the haters.

@ 394

Cygnus, oh come on!!!. You are nitpicking Star Trek Into Darkness to death. And by the way, how Khan is able to attack the meeting at Starfleet headquarters is not a plot hole. There would be a plot hole if Kirk after being relieved from being the captain of the Enterprise, all of sudden had command of the Enterprise without elucidation. But since the plot explains that by Khan’s attack he gets the captain’s chair again then it’s not a plot hole.

I totally agree with MJ on his rebuttal. And by the way, MJ and I don’t agree on everything. You automatically assume on your set of “facts” that you are right. You might as well start asking why the good witches of Oz didn’t save Pike.

I can explain that scene easily. One. San Francisco is a utopian society. So security is lax. Two, Khan could have stolen a Federation vehicle. Nobody notices. Three. Did you watch the movie??? Pike calls for air support right after the attack and during it. The attack doesn’t last very long., maybe a couple of minutes. By the time, Kirk takes down Khan’s vessel, the police or whoever would have been too late.

To show you how far your hatred of STID is, let’s nitpick the greatest science fiction movie ever, 2001: A Space Odyssey. In the words of John Harrison, lets cal him Khan, “Shall we begin?”

NITPICKING 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY

Why didn’t Bowman just send a probe into the Monolith rather than risking his life to explore it? Why didn’t the aliens ask Bowman for his permission to evolve him into the Star Child? I mean if the aliens were advanced, they would have sought permission from a sentient life form like Bowman.

Get it? You can nitpick any film, no matter how great it is. You’ve made some sincere criticism of Star Trek 2009. But nitpicking STID with your set of assumptions weakens your arguments of Abrams’ Star Trek.

440. Keachick - September 25, 2013

Marcus and Khan were using each other. They both had agendas. They were both perpetrators and *victims*. Khan was more of a *victim* than Marcus, because, for a long time, Marcus had Khan’s crew, “family” as Khan called them and threatened to kill them if Khan did not behave and do as Marcus wanted.

Once Khan had managed to get his crew free of Marcus, in a very risky move, then the “playing field” got a little more even. Marcus, in his quest to get the war he had always wanted, began taking his eyes off the ball and forgot that Khan was “better”. “Better at what?” “Everything”.

The other explanations re above posts seem a bit convoluted and don’t fit with how Orci and others understood and wrote the character(s).

441. TrekkieJan - September 25, 2013

@ 435. Jack

“Trek was never just about exploration and it was never about a sunny, optimistic future free of problems. It showed that, yes, mankind as a whole solved a lot of problems — but it ain’t over.”

Actually, Roddenberry said mankind’s problems as a species were largely over. What’s wrong with that…? The writers had to look for conflict elsewhere. By and large, they found it. Some of the best Star Trek has little conflict at all. Inner Light, for example. Would it make a good movie…? I’m not sure. I’d still probably watch it.

442. TrekkieJan - September 25, 2013

@434. Curious Cadet

“Indeed, Khan was a superior intellect and a master manipulator. The politics of ruling peacefully over a region comprising the MiddleEast through Asia, where massacres weren’t used to control the population speaks volumes about Khan’s abilities to understand and influence people.”

Indeed.

“I would go so far as to say Marcus was Khan’s AU McGivers … Marcus admired Khan as Kirk, Scotty & McCoy admit in Space Seed. But Marcus was further seduced by Khan, made giddy by the allure of a truly sadistic tyrant, an actual man from the 20th century, a period no doubt studied thoroughly and romanticized by Marcus (perhaps he even had model battle scenes set up in his basement). I would bet they spent time together outside of work, discussing military tactics as they played chess. Khan was biding his time, getting close to Marcus, earning his trust, learning how Marcus thinks — playing the long con — until all the pieces were in place to betray him, and set in motion the plan he helped devise and refine, over many nights in Marcus’ study over drinks.”

The head crush neatly expressing how he felt about having to do all that. Marcus did like his models. I like it!

443. TrekkieJan - September 25, 2013

439. Keachick
(snip)*Khan was more of a *victim* than Marcus, because, for a long time, Marcus had Khan’s crew, “family” as Khan called them and threatened to kill them if Khan did not behave and do as Marcus wanted.”

See – this was where I was thrown. I believe that Khan’s lie to manipulate Kirk also (wrongly) convinced a big part of the audience. This Khan is stone cold.

“The other explanations re above posts seem a bit convoluted and don’t fit with how Orci and others understood and wrote the character(s).”

I haven’t seen Orci’s comments, just the script as it appeared on film, which is all we can really go by. And distilled to its simplest possibilities, the plot is nothing less than convoluted, I think.

444. Rick - September 25, 2013

FYI >
‘Star Trek Into Darkness’ tops movie on-demand list
UPI News Service, 09/23/2013

“Star Trek Into Darkness” is the No. 1 video-on-demand title in the United States, Rentrak announced Monday.

Read more at http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/star-trek-into-darkness-tops-movie-on-demand-list–1037011.php#wr5h8gRVoGvD9qHj.99

445. Keachick - September 25, 2013

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

In real world affairs, I think that this is no better demonstrated by what happened in the 1980′s when the Soviet Union occupied Iraq and Afghanistan. The CIA military advisors trained and armed the rebel groups fighting Soviet occupation. These rebel groups now constitute the Taliban and Al Qaeda who have always seen both the Soviet style government and the US and its allies as enemies and, even more importantly, in their minds, as Infidels, enemies of Allah. They were only too happy, at the time, to receive US assistance in terms of training and weaponry because that gave them the power they needed to carry out their own more far-reaching agenda.

Perhaps some people within the US Government and CIA were aware of this and even warned, but the main target was beating the Soviet Union (“getting the war that Marcus always wanted”) and did not see what could become as much of a threat as the Soviet government appeared to be at the time and not necessarily as easy to “beat”.

446. Phil - September 25, 2013

@424. Okay, sure, why not? Canon hasn’t ruled out that the Enterprise isn’t a Transformer, either. The point being, at least in the Trek universe, is that technology is supposed to have a defined set of attributes, based loosely on science. So even though FTL is still very much fiction, the theory is based on the warping of space, which, theoretically, is possible.

Yeah, it’s make-believe. Hell, R2D2 can fly. It would have been handy to have known that three movies ago – as I pointed out earlier, it’s on screen at this point, so it is what it is.

447. Keachick - September 25, 2013

No, Khan was not lying to Kirk about what Marcus had threatened to do with his crew. There is no reason to believe this to be a lie. Nor have I seen anywhere where Marcus has denied doing such.

You can be “stone cold” and still be able to tell the truth about what might have happened to you and other people you deem to be connected to you in some way. I think that most people would regard Hitler as being “cold” but he would not be lying if he said that Eva Braun was his mistress, because she was. There was also clear evidence that a genuine mutual affection existed between them…

The problem here is Hitler, like Khan, like most, if not all, of humanity (GM or not) are not just made of cardboard. This is why trying to understand and deal with these kinds of people is such difficult task (in every sense). That is not to say that they should not be stopped from doing that which is inhumane, despotic…

448. Keachick - September 25, 2013

Yes, but I think that it is far credible to think that it is possible for the Enterprise to be submerged in water than for it to have Transformer capabilities, but nothing, of course, should be ruled out…:)

449. Keachick - September 25, 2013

Edit – s/be “…is far MORE credible…”
Argh

450. P Technobabble - September 25, 2013

437. DM

Project Blue Beam is coming!

451. TrekkieJan - September 25, 2013

@446. Keachick

“No, Khan was not lying to Kirk about what Marcus had threatened to do with his crew. There is no reason to believe this to be a lie. Nor have I seen anywhere where Marcus has denied doing such.”

Having no evidence is not the same as having evidence against. There’s no evidence Marcus threatened Khan’s people. He held them hostage, in their original frozen state, for Khan’s held. Who wouldn’t keep them frozen? 72 Super men and women? They’re still frozen at the end of this movie!

For all we know, the whole plot against the Klingons was Khan’s idea, and Khan convinced Marcus. Evidence for? His daughter sure seemed surprised!

Khan used the hot button word with Kirk – family. Like Spock did when mentioning his father (more innocently) in the hearing over the Kobayashi Maru.

Your Hitler argument is made of straw.

452. Keachick - September 25, 2013

Nonsense…

Marcus’s daughter was not surprised. She was upset and angry. She slapped her father’s face and said she was ashamed to be his daughter. What she did tell Kirk was that, as a weapons technologist, she had access to most of the data, except when it came to information about the new torpedoes. She became suspicious (of her father perhaps?) which is why she got onto the Enterprise using an alias. She did not know who she could trust. It is likely that she knew something about John Harrison and had even worked with him on occasion, however Harrison’s other identity and history had been kept from her by both Khan AND her father, Admiral Marcus.

Also note what Marcus said to Kirk when Kirk revealed to Marcus that he had spoken to Khan – “Oh hell, so you know…”

TrekkieJan – You say that you have only seen the film once (so far) and that was trying to watch over a lot of shouting, sneering and jeering. May I suggest that you watch it again, without all the noise “coming from the cheap seats”.

453. TrekkieJan - September 25, 2013

@451. Keachick

“Marcus’s daughter was not surprised. She was upset and angry.”

I would venture to say this doesn’t preclude her being surprised. In fact, it supports it. Anger is sudden. There’s no indication she expected to find wrong-doing by her father and was upset when she did.

That supports the fact that her father changed from the man she knew, perverted by Khan’s lies and influence. I’d argue Marcus was the hostage.

454. TrekkieJan - September 25, 2013

@451. Keachick

“Also note what Marcus said to Kirk when Kirk revealed to Marcus that he had spoken to Khan – “Oh hell, so you know…””

I think he said, “Oh hell…” because it meant he would have to destroy the Enterprise himself rather than let the Klingons do it…?

“TrekkieJan – You say that you have only seen the film once (so far) and that was trying to watch over a lot of shouting, sneering and jeering. May I suggest that you watch it again, without all the noise “coming from the cheap seats”.”

They mostly yelled over the “Khaaaaan!” yell and when Spock was chasing Khan on flying cars and Jim brought back to life magically. I don’t think I need to see that again.

455. TOS 4 EVER - September 25, 2013

O Captain! My Captain!

O CAPTAIN! my Captain! our fearful trip is done;
The ship has weather’d every rack, the prize we sought is won;
The port is near, the bells I hear, the people all exulting,
While follow eyes the steady keel, the vessel grim and daring:
But O heart! heart! heart!
O the bleeding drops of red,
Where on the deck my Captain lies,
Fallen cold and dead.

~ Walt Whitman ~

Dear Mr. Roberto Orci,

Thank you for all the incredible respect you show towards Star Trek and for your wonderful talents!

Isn’t It About Time To Bring Back Kirk Prime?

Peace And Long Life!

456. Curious Cadet - September 25, 2013

@446. Keachick,
“No, Khan was not lying to Kirk about what Marcus had threatened to do with his crew. There is no reason to believe this to be a lie. Nor have I seen anywhere where Marcus has denied doing such.”

Stop it. You of all people suggesting that something not proven conclusively in the movie cannot be viewed another way?

You are the poster girl for Khan is not Khan Noonien Singh fan club. Despite Orci’s stated intent otherwise.

Khan is a liar, he always has been. And if you really believe he is not Khan, then you have to believe whoever this character really may be is a liar too. If he lied about that, then there is reason to believe he lied about everything.

457. Harry Ballz - September 25, 2013

Benedict Cumberbatch is supposedly dating Russian model Katia Elizarova.

I’ve seen photos of her. He could do SO much better!

Talk about slumming!

458. Keachick - September 25, 2013

OK – There is some major fritzing out happening here.

For a start, my comment about people like Hitler is NOT made of straw. In fact, it is a perfectly truthful and valid comment. People do not lie all the time nor do they never lie. People who are generally good, kind, honest people have been known to lie on occasion. The reverse applies to people who are generally cruel, despicable, untrustworthy. They have been known to tell the truth. That is a fact. This can also apply to both H/Khan and Marcus.

TrekkieJan – Many of your posts have been very long and at one point, it was clear to me that you had not understood an aspect of the film. It turns out that you were not able to give the movie your complete attention because of the cacophany going on around. Then, when I suggest that you watch the film again, in peace, you dismiss my suggestion. I find it hard to take seriously anything you may write about the movie at this point.

“I think he said, “Oh hell…” because it meant he would have to destroy the Enterprise himself rather than let the Klingons do it…?”

Wrong. Marcus already knew that Kirk had captured Harrison. It was when Kirk referred to Harrison as Khan, that Marcus said, “Oh hell, so you have talked to him…” Yes, Marcus was pissed that Kirk had not killed Harrison by using a torpedo to strike at Kronos, thereby pre-empting war, but he was even more pissed that Kirk found out who Harrison really was and had been given some background…

For some reason, I do not believe that Harrison/Khan lied about anything at all. It is just that we can’t quite get our heads around this. This applies to Kirk especially. He knows that Marcus has betrayed him (and Starfleet) but he does not know if he can really trust H/Khan either. After all, Khan and Marcus worked together…”birds of a feather…” I don’t think you can really blame Kirk for telling Scotty to stun Khan once they had got to the Vengeance bridge. All Kirk knows is that, either side of him, he is dealing with people who have given him every cause to believe that they are dangerously insane nutcases.

Curiously, I think that once Khan (after capture) thought through Kirk’s reasoning, he would have understood it, perhaps even applauded it…

I never said that I did not believe that Harrison was Khan. Harrison said he was – “My name is Khan”. All I have ever contended is that this particular man whose name is Khan is not the same Khan Noonien Singh that only prime Spock spoke of and referred to him by his full name.

Bob Orci may say what he likes, but that does not make it alternate universe Star Trek canon. It is possible that the post-STID comics that deal with this particular Khan may give more background and prove me wrong, however, until then…my belief is as valid as anyone else’s.

What Bob Orci may have said does not make him a liar either.

“Khan used the hot button word with Kirk – family. Like Spock did when mentioning his father (more innocently) in the hearing over the Kobayashi Maru.”

Not necessarily so. Khan did not need to know anything about Kirk or his background. What Khan already knew was what some people were prepared to do for their family – Harewood and his dying daughter. Khan also knew how he felt about his crew – “family”. If the use of the word “family” was a hot button, it is likely to have been coincidental.

What Spock did was different. Spock honed in on Kirk’s “achilles heel”? – the death of his father, George Kirk and indeed referred to Kirk’s father. It was nasty and “below-the-belt”. Khan had not done what Spock had done.

459. THX-1138 - September 25, 2013

#457 Harry Ballz

Thank you for finally posting. This side of the site is a much lesser place without you. You and AJ and CmdrR. need to come here more often and clean this place up from time to time.

BTW, I think Katia Elizarova is a good fit for BC. He has the face of a Terry Gilliam cartoon.

460. Keachick - September 25, 2013

I don’t know, Harry – Benedict Cumberbatch could also do worse…

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=russian+model+katia+elizarova&client=firefox-a&hs=Nbf&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=0XRDUvi6MMWqkgXp6YDgAg&ved=0CFAQsAQ&biw=1173&bih=831&dpr=1

461. Keachick - September 25, 2013

Chris Pine not only plays “my captain” but now “my prince” as well – actually Cinderella’s Prince Charming, to be exact. It can’t get much better than that surely. Chris, you honey…:)

I am not sure if what is shown is the assembly of the cast in costume before the actual filming of “Into the Woods” starts or if these pictures are also part of the movie. Chris Pine’s hair is lighter and looks really nice. His smile is great and the costume makes him look sooo sexy. I just wonder if “Into the Woods” movie Prince Charming will sport facial fluff…

That male clothing style was really cool looking on men. Maybe it was also too impractical, but not nearly as impractical as what the women used to wear, lovely though the dresses look.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2432571/Anna-Kendrick-Chris-Pine-begin-filming-Into-The-Woods-Christine-Baranski.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

462. Jim,London - September 25, 2013

The Tholians…. Now theres a story… Alas i digress

Apparently theres another destination star trek being announced for London

463. Disinvited - September 25, 2013

#461. Keachick – September 25, 2013

Wasn’t he a prince in PRINCESS DIARIES 2? Or was he just a royal consort?

464. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 25, 2013

Basement Blogger, Keachick,

Given that Cygnus X-1 has not replied to our serious issues with “his game,” my conclusion is that he must be backing off completely from his failed attempt at a straw-man argument.

As he should!

PS: Basement Blogger — thank you for the nice words!

465. Marja - September 25, 2013

Cygnus – Khan flies a helicopter-type craft right up to the window of Star Fleet HQ, arguably the most important building on Earth, while Star Fleet’s top brass are convened there for a high level meeting …. Some things that could have been “saved” by exposition. We could have seen Khan “cloaking” his small ship, then lowering the defensive shields of the HQ building for example. As for the glass, I think that was a director’s choice [it happens again in the chase scene near the end], for the flash and look of it.

396 Marcus, Can you imagine how many lines of coding starships would need, so its computers could control everything from warpcores to shields? Unless someone comes up with a easier language, the engineers of the future will have their handful. We will most likely need to invent a new math. Yep, and I think in the next 200+ years that may well be possible, along with inventing a whole new way to program computers.

406 Curious Indeed in TMP, Uhura wore yellow and Chekov wore gray department colors, while Scotty had red. There was RED in TMP?? Dag, I thought everything was grey white and beige. The most boring costumes EVER.
… idle speculation about whether or not Uhura should have been included in the disarming of the torpedo based on whether she had any prerequisite skills necessary to contribute to technology we know nothing about is sort of … forgive me — silly. Uhura got to do a lot of stuff in this movie, did she really need to be a part of the disarming of the torpedo as well? Or are you suggesting they simply should have not introduced Carol Marcus at all and had Uhura do everything her character did?

Nope, that was me, and in the first place, I thought the “surgeon’s hands” excuse was rather lame, because any engineer would have the delicate touch as well [however I loved McCoy in that scene]. What I was suggesting was an alternate scenario that would exercise Uhura’s language skills so she and Carol could work together, but that started a storm of complaints “Uhura’s not qualified to translate code” &c. Marcus was absolutely necessary to that scene [Spock was busy], and I don’t think of her as superfluous on a starship with a whole Science department. I was happy Uhura got to do lots of stuff, believe me, and exercised her skills on the Klingon world. I would like to see Uhura working with Carol for the sake of “grrrl power” and that Bechtel test some folks go on about.

466. Marja - September 25, 2013

409 Obsessive, Uhura does not have to be the computer expert Spock is (A7 level classification in the Prime Universe) but it’s quite conceivable she knows her way around the hardware and software associated with her speciality. We see her rewiring her console to rig a subspace bypass circuit in the Prime Universe (TOS: “Who Mourns for Adonais?). Also, as a communications officer, it is quite feasible she has training in cryptography, as well as her skills in linguistics. We have little actual knowledge of what are required skills and capabilities of a chief communications officer on a starship in the 23rd century, but I certainly believe it’s more than would be required for just a glorified telephone operator. Hear, hear! I think it’s likely she’d have cryptography as a skill, but for emergencies, say if the crypto reading computer goes down or the on-board Cryptographer gets injured/killed.

412 Keachick, Agreed, and I think a few moments of exposition [showing Khan, dropping the defenses, jamming the emergency frequencies] would have filled this plothole very nicely.

414 Curious, I happen to enjoy the fresh look at TOS. I don’t agree with all the choices the filmmakers make, but I’m happy to have it. Just because it doesn’t interest you, don’t deny it for the millions of others who find enjoyment in it, and the millions more who would have never watched an episode of Star Trek were it not for the current reboot. It’s far better to have that than have the franchise relegated to the annals of history. I’m very happy to have it too, even though I could wish for some changes; e.g., less violence.

415 SUA, Red is engineering and security. I think at least most of the people in Engineering are either engineers or not too far off from it. Why? Because, if you are going on a 5 year mission, anything can happen. The farther you get away from home, the less back up you have. People can die from illness, injury, etc. So, you need to make sure that every crew member on the ship has enough talent, skill, and training to be able to pick up any (or at least most) slack a loss can leave behind, kind of like how McCoy was able to fill in seamlessly for the Head Doctor that died during the Narada attack…

(I don’t think McCoy’s taking over for Dr Puri is a great example b/c of the training medical doctors receive – it’s pretty thorough and anyone certified to be o/b a starship would necessarily have training in emergency medicine and surgery.) But I agree with your general point. These folks are geniuses. As part of Engineering/Ops, Uhura would be able to troubleshoot equipment and the communications-related computer programs [I think]. As Chief of Comms she’d supervise a lot of other functions; Cryptography, intraship communications, comms engineering &c.

417 Marcus, Not everything lasts forever. Regardless about how much we hold onto things, the reality is that things change for a reason. Exactly. Computer technology will probably be one of those things. In case you’re still reading.

467. Marja - September 25, 2013

418 Phil, It was all for visual effect, and it was stunning even though the science boggles the mind sometimes. I’m fine with it. As someone said above, it’s entertainment, not a Nova episode. Look at all the kooky stuff in ST2009.

422, P Technobabble, Life, itself, is full of plot holes and there isn’t even a plot. There isn’t a single Star Trek movie that didn’t have plot holes, so I don’t know if it’s entirely fair to rip STID apart. Deep analysis of fiction doesn’t have the luxury of simply enjoying it. In fact how can we enjoy anything if we dissect it to the point that the only thing left is the space in which it existed? Yet some folks really enjoy the critical process. “What was wrong with this? How could it be better?” I enjoy these discussions, especially writing-wise and character-wise, and I enjoy retconning. That said, I like to enjoy a film first. Just take it in, suspend the imagination, fly with the story. In many respects, Orci & Kurtzman wrote a demmed good story.

My main issues with the film were the relentless action [that put story aside somewhat], the violence, the cruelty, the destruction. Not high points for me. I’m glad I saw STiD, don’t get me wrong; I saw it several times in the theatre. I’m glad I saw it early in the summer blockbuster season, because there is a sameness to these Summer Blockbuster movies and I hate seeing that in Trek. By the time I was finished viewing Man of Steel, I told my friend, “ENOUGH. I don’t want to see any more of these. They are boring.”

I except Trek only b/c I had waited FOUR YEARS; it features my favorite characters in the world, whose character moments were IMO very well-written/directed; and the actors did a bang-up job. I’d just like a movie with less pell-mell action, one that allows the characters to discuss, reflect, have more than 2 – 5 minutes to BE and talk.

425 Hat Rick, Aw darn, I was really looking forward to your editorial and I enjoy your posts. Here’s hoping your real-world problems are resolved with positive outcomes, and we can welcome you back. LLAP.

468. Marja - September 25, 2013

430 Curious, the biggest plot hole to me was the building of the Vengeance! How was the massive amount of funding for such a thing acquired? The huge acquisitions of building materials? Doesn’t the Federation senate have oversight of finances? How long would it take to build that thing? OK Khan designed it, probably rather quickly due to his absolute brilliance, but the Enterprise herself took over 3 years to build. How long was Khan in Marcus’s clutches?

TREKKIE JAN AND CURIOUS CADET: I’m really enjoying your analysis and “retKhan” – ironing out the possibilities we could have examined a little better in the theatre had the movie run, say, an extra 15 minutes. The characters could have discussed this stuff! Wouldn’t that have been cool. Oh well.

435 Jack, Ha-ha, “gooey and sunny” doesn’t sell these days, unless it’s a family movie. And Trek, regrettably, is no longer suitable for kids under 12. Trek should not be about gooey sunny stuff anyway. I like when it takes on hard questions. That’s one of the things I liked about STiD. If only the characters had had time to discuss these hard questions ….

437 Duncan, DARPA is doing some super-creepy stuff these days. They were already pretty creepy, but now – holy crap. It boggles the mind what this country is doing to ensure military superiority ….

441 TrekkieJan, Actually, Roddenberry said mankind’s problems as a species were largely over. What’s wrong with that…? The writers had to look for conflict elsewhere. By and large, they found it. Some of the best Star Trek has little conflict at all. Inner Light, for example. Would it make a good movie…? I’m not sure. I’d still probably watch it. And some of the conflicts in TOS were those of worldviews: one of my favorites is “Errand of Mercy” which examines the contrast between the Klingons’ POV and Kirk’s, and ends with the discovery that neither really knew about or had command of the situation. An excellent episode about how limited our vision can be, and the effects of such. That said, I’d watch this new cast in something like “Inner Light,” but I confess, I’d listen to them reading a really boring novel, I like them so much : )

Re: your 443 See – this was where I was thrown. I believe that Khan’s lie to manipulate Kirk also (wrongly) convinced a big part of the audience. This Khan is stone cold. As was said, a master manipulator. He’s better at everything. Including acting the wounded victim to gain the sympathies of another wounded man, Kirk. I wanted to believe he was a victim, but you and CCadet now have me convinced otherwise!

445 Keachick, The CIA military advisors trained and armed the rebel groups fighting Soviet occupation. These rebel groups now constitute the Taliban and Al Qaeda who have always seen both the Soviet style government and the US and its allies as enemies and, even more importantly, in their minds, as Infidels, enemies of Allah. So very true. Bin Laden was, like Khan, a genius and a master of manipulation. He came from a society that is one of the oldest in the world, and such societies [like the Chinese] will wait as long as they have to to find a weakness in the opposition.

Re: your 458, What Spock did was different. Spock homed in on Kirk’s “achilles heel”? – the death of his father, George Kirk and indeed referred to Kirk’s father. It was nasty and “below-the-belt”. Khan had not done what Spock had done.

I really don’t think Spock was being nasty. I think he was trying to recall Kirk to the heroism of his father, to say, “We expected better of you.” That is what hurt Kirk. [And he had a damned good comeback.] I think Spock was expressing disappointment in this brilliant, promising cadet, who you must admit was “crowing” a bit when he beat the KM test – one that Spock believed was a perfectly legitimate test of character for the reasons he stated. [Although he cheated, and that's a significant black mark, Kirk was exposing his own character, beating the test, beating the odds, winning against every obstacle. We may disagree with Spock on his assessment of the efficacy of the KM test, but I don’t think he would “hit below the belt.” (Personally [like Kirk] I think the test is a little nonsensical, as gossip is a current at every university and especially in the service. IDK, I suppose cadets are sworn to secrecy? To me a more effective test at dealing with death would be to have a staff “poseur” in a cadet training exercise who’s in “danger of his life” or is “injured” and the cadets have to make a decision in an emergency situation that precludes helping the “poseur.” You know Kirk would still save the person and pass the exercise!)

All his life Kirk has lived with the spectre of Dad the Hero – “how can I ever live up to that?” His father’s sacrifice made Kirk want to find another way, perhaps because he dearly missed having his Dad, because he regretted the necessity of his Dad’s giving up his life to save others. Kirk also formed a belief central to his being – he truly believes that there has to be a way out, a way around, in order to succeed in saving others while preserving his crew.

He fulfills that self-sacrificial legacy of his father toward the end of STiD, and because he was willing to die that others might live, perhaps he was “divinely rewarded” by a miracle – at any rate his luck held when McCoy synthesized the serum from Khan’s blood. And he helped Spock understand some things, like the real-world consequence of a KM-type scenario. And friendship.

Re your 461, Pine looks really good with that length of hair. I always thought his hair was totally unmanageable [like Harrison Ford’s]! I’m really surprised to see him with the beard scruff for that role, though – Prince Charming has usually been depicted clean-shaven – Pine’s full beard [that he sported during the STiD premieres] would have been ever so much nicer. (Alas, I think the costume coat he’s wearing is a bit of fail on the part of the designers; it shouldn’t look so sloppy, especially on a guy with such a nice build.)

469. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 25, 2013

@465 “As for the glass, I think that was a director’s choice [it happens again in the chase scene near the end], for the flash and look of it.”

Yep — and we don’t hear Cygnus X-1 bitching about the “glass enclosed” warp chamber in Stat Trek 2 here, do we? Of course, here, engine chamber in STID was much more realistic and secure than the engine chamber in WOK that had maybe 3/8-inch glass for containment, but he doesn’t want to mention that…i.e. because it would be “inconvenient”f for Cygnus to criticize WOK in the context of his continued slams on STID.

470. Red Dead Ryan - September 25, 2013

I agree that the engine chamber in STID is more realistic, and looks better than the glass containment area in TWOK.

Also, Khan’s “magic blood” is much more believable than the Genesis Device (which somehow manages to turn a dead planet into an Earth-like world in a matter of mere seconds) yet the former is being ripped as “bad” science whereas the latter gets nothing but praise from hardcore pro-Meyer/anti-Abrams fans.

471. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 25, 2013

Also Red Dead Ryan,

In Star Trek 4, let’s not forget that this same Starfleet building glass walls collapsed under what was essentially hurricane like conditions. One would think that in that case as well, that Starfleet HQ would have more secure facilities and without simple glass windows — but Star Trek 4 showed us that this was not the case.

So it’s really unfair to attack the glass windows construction of Starfleet HQ in STID when we already saw that Starfleet has this same kind of architecture in Star Trek 4.

472. Red Dead Ryan - September 25, 2013

MJ,

That’s true, too. The glass at Starfleet HQ in STID was subjected to heavy, concentrated, and direct phaser blasts. The destruction of the glass was not only believable there, but also expected.

On the other hand, in TVH, the glass at Starfleet HQ should have been able to withstand hurricane force winds and rain. I mean, didn’t they have transparent aluminum available in the late 23rd century? :-)

473. Harry Ballz - September 25, 2013

@459

THX-1138, thanks for the nice comment. Yes, I shall try to pop by here more often.

474. Charla - September 25, 2013

Yay! Good to see Bob back!

I have worked all week so I was unable to take time to post. Now that I am off, well time to celebrate! Lots of reading to take in, so I guess I’ll need a good wine or spirit to enjoy while I read and kick off my early weekend too- (I’ll take any suggestions since this is not something I do often- oh and nothing too harsh :D )

Collectively, this group of Trek fans has a diverse knowledge base on Trek which makes most of the threads very interesting. The tone seems to have changed, even within this thread but it is good to see everyone getting along for the most part as well. Great way to wind it all up, with some mature debate interesting and fun conversation.

Thanks Kayla for bringing us the podcast and again, it really is great to see you back Bob, if you read this. PS. Don’t forget the suggestions…

475. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 25, 2013

Ballz Out!

Yes!

PS: By the way, Harry, I had a short visit to Toronto this year and had a much better experience that my first trip years ago.

476. Harry Ballz - September 25, 2013

@475

Aw, MJ, I wish I had known! We could have met for a beer! Where did you stay?

477. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 25, 2013

The Marriott Residence Inn Downtown. Very nice!

478. boborci - September 25, 2013

437 dmduncan

yup

479. Harry Ballz - September 25, 2013

Bob Orci

are you planning to read Roger Stone’s book THE MAN WHO KILLED KENNEDY?

Apparently he points the blame for JFK’s murder directly at LBJ.

About friggin’ time!

480. dswynne1 - September 25, 2013

@ Bob Orci:

Glad you’re back.

If I can suggest something, I would highly recommend you and your people to cobble together a companion book for the 50th Anniversary of Star Trek. Not only should it tie into the events surrounding the 2016 movie (hopefully, spoiler free), but also events set forth in the altered timeline, starting from the incursion of the Nerada until the “present”. It should have character references, as well as notations as to high the characters of the “NuTrek Timeline” are the same/different from the “Prime Trek Timeline”. In particularly, it should have a technical manual portion that will officially set the technological levels of the new timeline (example: is the USS Enterprise of NuTrek fast or faster/big or bigger than the USS Enterprise-E of Prime Trek, and just how was “transwarp beaming pulled off?). Finally, it should include art concepts and storyboard notes that you guys went over before final production. As an aside, what do you think of the idea of a Next Generation “reboot” featuring a new take on Picard and crew?

Anyway, thanks for your efforts in putting out quality entertainment.

481. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 25, 2013

”(I don’t think McCoy’s taking over for Dr Puri is a great example b/c of the training medical doctors receive – it’s pretty thorough and anyone certified to be o/b a starship would necessarily have training in emergency medicine and surgery.)”

That’s exactly why I believe it is a good example. He was a member of the senior medical staff of the ship. I’m guessing any one of them is capable to run the ship’s medical facilities if they are needed to fill in, like McCoy did.

I’m guessing that by “anyone,” you mean any of the doctors assigned to the ship (because I don’t think the whole crew knows how to do surgery), and I’d agree with that if that’s what you meant. I think each crew member probably knows how to do at least basic EMT work, but EMTs aren’t surgeons. Bones inherited that position because he was next in line, and so of course he had the skills to fill in.

In McCoy’s case, it was the senior medical staff being a backup and aid to the chief of medicine. In Engineering, the people in the communications section are probably all well-trained and able aid their leader, with the most advanced (and based off of her discussion with Spock, Uhura was likely the most advanced of the group) able to help with backup of his duties. Perhaps Uhura was also next in line for that position (if there’s a second in charge to the Chief Comm Officer???) and she just happened to be more skilled in Romulan than he was… It was a moment of opportunity…

But I agree with your general point. These folks are geniuses. As part of Engineering/Ops, Uhura would be able to troubleshoot equipment and the communications-related computer programs [I think]. As Chief of Comms she’d supervise a lot of other functions; Cryptography, intraship communications, comms engineering &c. ”

Yup. I can only imagine her programming experience because she would have been trained to prepare for anything happening to the system. She also strikes me as the type of manager, like Scotty, who would probably dig in and “get her hands dirty” by helping her team, instead of just supervising all of the time, because that would keep her skills fresh.

482. dswynne1 - September 26, 2013

@468 (Marja): Concerning the USS Vengeance, I think the real plot hole isn’t how it was built, but where was it built (i.e. around Jupiter).

483. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 26, 2013

^My response above it @#466 Marja.

484. dswynne1 - September 26, 2013

@445 (Keachick): More to the point, aiding the mujahadeen in Afghanistan was a means for the CIA to hurt the Soviets badly for their aid to the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong. Nothing like a bit of humiliation on a nation’s collective psyche…

485. dswynne1 - September 26, 2013

@315 (TrekkieJan): Stop nit-picking. You want an in-continuity answer? Here goes:

1) Transwarp Beaming – confiscated by Starfleet…which was flat out stated by Scotty.
2) Khan’s “magic blood” – cellular restoration, but you can still be killed by phaser or disruptor fire. Besides, how is the blood thing worse than Spock returning from the dead via the Genesis Wave of WoK?
3) Communicators – signal from Kirk’s communicator is routed through the ship’s systems, then is beamed to Earth to a relay system, and then beamed to Scotty’s communicator. In fact, we have that technology now via satellite technology and other wireless networks (look up Voice over IP or “VoIP).

Don’t read too much into things…

486. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 26, 2013

@Marja

Okay, I think I understand what you perhaps thought based off of your response.

When I said this:

I think at least most of the people in Engineering are either engineers or not too far off from it. Why? Because, if you are going on a 5 year mission, anything can happen. The farther you get away from home, the less back up you have. People can die from illness, injury, etc. So, you need to make sure that every crew member on the ship has enough talent, skill, and training to be able to pick up any (or at least most) slack a loss can leave behind, kind of like how McCoy was able to fill in seamlessly for the Head Doctor that died during the Narada attack…

I think you thought I meant, based off of your response, that each member of the crew knows how to do every other crew member’s job. (??) That’s not what I was saying. Not at all. I’m not even sure that this is possible.

When I typed about picking up the slack, that would be in their respective departments, and so that’s why I mentioned McCoy and his department. Just like I think most people in Engineering are either engineers themselves or not too far off, I also think that most people in the Medical/Infirmary area of the ship are either doctors or not too far off. So, for example, I think most of the nurses are probably what we would call Nurse Practitioners today…

That’s not saying the entire department/branch of the ship has the same amount of training and expertise, but it is saying that I believe that they (Starfleet) “stacked the odds” in their favor by how the ship was staffed. So, the best of the best (for the flagship) are in each section and able to help fill in as needed. Who knows? In this last film, Chekov the Navigator was cross-training in Engineering right under Scotty. So, perhaps they are stacking those odds even more in their favor should anything happen…

Mainly, I’m just glad that (I believe) we both agree that Uhura is qualified far beyond her exceptional “aural sensitivities,” and that this should be shown more.

487. P Technobabble - September 26, 2013

467. Marja

I think my comment (about analysis) sounded rather black and white but I do understand your point about enjoying the critical process in these discussions — otherwise there’d be no forum, eh? :) I, too, enjoy the discussions, even though I feel they sometimes get too ‘heavy-handed serious.’ But — and I mean this in a good way — there are some extremely intricate minds at work here!
I also have to agree with you about these characters being your “most favorite in the world.” Mine too. I’ll take any chance to hang out with them.

488. rogue_alice - September 26, 2013

Thanks Bob!

489. Cygnus-X1 - September 26, 2013

400. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – September 24, 2013
412. Keachick – September 24, 2013
439. Basement Blogger – September 25, 2013

Thanks for playing!

This site classifies it as a “MINOR PLOT HOLE,” which seems about right: http://movieplotholes.com/star-trek-into-darkness.html

With regard to an “Alternate Explanation,” while there’s no shortage of ways for the writers to have quickly and easily shown or just implied how Khan was pulling off his attack and why there appeared to be absolutely no resistance, distant early warning system, or defensive capabilities around the most important location on Earth, they simply failed to do so.

One can supplement any story in one’s imagination, but that doesn’t make it part of the story (or the movie) or what the writers necessarily intended, and the result then is ambiguity, at best.

Citing Khan’s super-intelligence as an explanation to any plot hole involving that character’s actions is analogous (though, perhaps to a slightly lesser degree) to explaining away all of the plot holes in the highly nonsensical Star Wars Prequels plots to The Emperor controlling the minds and actions of all of the characters. Sure, you can explain away the deficiencies in the plot that way, and it could be consistent with the abilities of The Emperor, but it doesn’t really make the movie any better.

Ultimately, if I’m pulled out of the movie by thinking, “What the hell? Star Fleet HQ doesn’t have any security guards, defensive capabilities, or even RADAR?!?” then I regard that as a failure of the people telling the story, because, after all, I can’t just interrupt them mid-movie to ask them for clarification.

As has been mentioned, it would have been extremely quick and easy, requiring but a few seconds of screen time in STID, to have addressed the failing in question:

465. Marja – September 25, 2013

—Some things that could have been “saved” by exposition. We could have seen Khan “cloaking” his small ship, then lowering the defensive shields of the HQ building for example. As for the glass, I think that was a director’s choice [it happens again in the chase scene near the end], for the flash and look of it.—

Khan cloaking his ship would have been consistent with him allying with the Klingons while he was on Kronos. Seeing a little about the nature of that relationship would have added depth to the story. Instead of the Klingons just having been sort of ignorant cavemen unaware of what was really going on, we could have seen just a scene with Khan using his famous charisma to charm them earlier in the movie.

Having the windows at Star Fleet HQ made of glass (instead of, say, transparent aluminum) was a choice that did allow for flashy shards of glass flying all over the place, but as with the ease of Khan’s approach, seeing Star Fleet’s top brass (and my favorite character, Pike) being shot and killed through glass, inside what should have been the most secure and fortified location on Earth, pulled me out of the movie.

490. Rick - September 26, 2013

Off Topic but… check this out:

NASA’s Innovative Ion Space Thruster Sets Endurance World Record
SPACE.com

A five-year test of NASA’s latest ion drive for future spacecraft has set a new world record for the longest single space engine test.
> http://news.yahoo.com/nasas-innovative-ion-space-thruster-sets-endurance-world-110945990.html

491. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

@485. dswynne1
“(TrekkieJan): Stop nit-picking.”

I didn’t mean to offend. As an SF editor, I do see these things as long term (as, for a series) problems.(i.e. I nitpick for a living.) Quick fixes do create trouble for writers that follow. I think for people to buy into an SF (or any) series it has to have internal logic that works with the highest and lowest common denominators of fans. I enjoy the flash too – always thought Trek could use a little more of it. But I don’t think the filmmakers should leave ST fans with a science background in the dust – especially with Star Trek, which inspired generations of scientists.

“You want an in-continuity answer? Here goes:

1) Transwarp Beaming – confiscated by Starfleet…which was flat out stated by Scotty.”

I believe Spock said it was an equation in 09. How do you confiscate an equation?(Especially when Scotty says he’s so good at remembering numbers! ^_~ (That was a joke.)

“2) Khan’s “magic blood” – cellular restoration, but you can still be killed by phaser or disruptor fire. Besides, how is the blood thing worse than Spock returning from the dead via the Genesis Wave of WoK?”

The Genesis Wave wouldn’t be used to restore anyone because you have to destroy a planet and all the life on it – they searched for years for a lifeless planet to test the device (unsuccessfully.) It was astronomical odds (and fans desperate for Nimoy’s return) that it worked to bring Spock back. And it’s stated in movie that no-one can use the proto-stuff because it’s so unstable. The (surviving) scientists were in a lot of trouble for using it.

Okay, so the magic blood is limited in some way. It has to be. I’m starting to be afraid Movie Three will be Kirk’s Cancer. Bones finds his revived tribble eaten up with massive….I’ll stop. (Another joke, definitely not funny. But that’s a danger of medicine on a cellular level. It makes you wonder how few of these augmented supermen survived the embryonic stage.)

“3) Communicators – signal from Kirk’s communicator is routed through the ship’s systems, then is beamed to Earth to a relay system, and then beamed to Scotty’s communicator. In fact, we have that technology now via satellite technology and other wireless networks (look up Voice over IP or “VoIP).”

Even in the original ST there are subspace relays – but it still takes days to get messages. These are unimaginably great distances we are talking about (10 light years at the minimum, according to astrophysicist Copernicus.) Subspace communication had limits and (to a certain extent) rules. I actually agree that in this generation the idea of a message taking that long to get from one person to another is unimaginable and in a face paced plot could bog things down – so I’ll concede this point, reluctantly. (There’s tension in waiting for an reply – but frustration too.)

“Don’t read too much into things…”

That’s how I get my enjoyment though, particularly with SF. I’ve really enjoyed discussing the plot on this board with fans and I’ve learned a lot from nice people who’ve studied and thought about the movie. Like you.

I do hope Orci and Kurtzman are allowed to consult a scientist or two on the next one. I’m sure they’re able to make science fun.

492. Cygnus-X1 - September 26, 2013

469. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – September 25, 2013

—Yep — and we don’t hear Cygnus X-1 bitching about the “glass enclosed” warp chamber in Stat Trek 2 here, do we? Of course, here, engine chamber in STID was much more realistic and secure than the engine chamber in WOK that had maybe 3/8-inch glass for containment, but he doesn’t want to mention that…i.e. because it would be “inconvenient”f for Cygnus to criticize WOK in the context of his continued slams on STID.—

That’s a good example for “PLOT HOLE -or- BAD SCIENCE.”

Every time I watch TWOK, I have that moment where I’m pulled out of the death scene for a second by thinking, “A containment chamber for that highly toxic and dangerous stuff in there would probably not allow for the characters to be able to talk and hear each other through it.”

However, my immediate, next thought is, “But they wouldn’t have been able to have this highly emotional and effective scene, a classic in cinematic history, without the two characters being able to talk through the chamber wall. Sure there are many other ways for a death scene between Kirk and Spock to have been done, but having the two of them talking through a transparent barrier, with Kirk safely on one side of it and Spock irradiated and dying on the other, was a very effective way to do it. The transparent barrier serves as a metaphor juxtaposing these two men, largely opposite in their outlooks, personalities, and in how they each dealt with the no-win scenario, but having grown into very dear friends over the years.

It’s a relatively small leap to conclude that the chamber wall is simply made of some futuristic, transparent material (like transparent aluminum) having chemical properties which allow it to vibrate and transmit sound. However, another inconsistency in the scene is that earlier when Spock is entering the chamber we see and hear Scotty pounding on the chamber wall and yelling, “Spock! Get out of there!” Scotty’s voice sounds muted, like it’s being only partially transmitted through the chamber wall. Later in the scene, however, Kirk and Spock have their final exchange through the same chamber wall, and the dialogue is as clear as if they were both in the same room with no barrier between them. The reason for this inconsistency is obvious, and as Marja said of the glass windows in the STID scene, a choice made (in this case, during the writing stage) in order to have an emotionally compelling scene.

Unlike STID, however, TWOK is ultimately such a meaningful and effectively told story and that it earns such choices. Further, when you learn that Nick Meyers re-wrote in about a week the entire script that he’d been handed before he started filming the movie, it becomes easier to forgive minor oversights in scientific/technological consistency.

Of course, the movie would have been even more powerful and effective without little moments pulling one out of the movie; but, being the best of the Trek movies, a well respected and widely appreciated movie on its own, and a thoroughly satisfying movie experience overall, one feels less need to talk about its minor faults.

493. AJ - September 26, 2013

459:

THX:

Yes, we should all come back over to the news threads more often.

I still think Cumby will play Gary Mitchell.

494. Cygnus-X1 - September 26, 2013

P.S.

465. Marja – September 25, 2013

—Some things that could have been “saved” by exposition. We could have seen Khan “cloaking” his small ship, then lowering the defensive shields of the HQ building for example. As for the glass, I think that was a director’s choice [it happens again in the chase scene near the end], for the flash and look of it.—

That the writers didn’t “save” the film’s plot holes, inconsistencies and oversights in any of the number of quick, easy and cheap ways that they could have done so is why so many fans and critics have used phrases like, “lazy writing” and “creatively lazy” in their reviews and complaints about STID.

495. Cygnus-X1 - September 26, 2013

Sorry for misspelling Nick Meyer*

496. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

@458. Keachick

Did you used to be TrekPrincess? :) Your style of writing is similar.

“For a start, my comment about people like Hitler is NOT made of straw.”

I’m sorry not to be clear – I meant it was a straw man argument – an argument that seems to support the premise, but doesn’t. And emotionally, not to offend, but it rarely helps any argument to bring in Hitler. It’s a very hot button topic for some of us. (JJ for one, I’d imagine.)

“Many of your posts have been very long and at one point, it was clear to me that you had not understood an aspect of the film. It turns out that you were not able to give the movie your complete attention because of the cacophany going on around. Then, when I suggest that you watch the film again, in peace, you dismiss my suggestion. I find it hard to take seriously anything you may write about the movie at this point.”

I am sorry to be dismissive (and for the long posts. Please feel free to skip any posts of mine that don’t interest you. I do. And feel free not to take me seriously. I’m not offended.) I was also a little curt, and I apologize for that too.
But I was able to pay attention to most of the plot. I believe I’ve apologized for the instance (Kirk’s orders to Spock to captain the vessel while he sacrificed himself) where I did not understand due to the viewing circumstances. Even so, I believe I have a valid point about Kirk’s death. It’s certainly harder to order another to their death – especially for this Kirk who prides himself on not losing a single crewman at the start – but better if it saves more lives by having the guy great at snap decisions making decisions. It was a command decision and something Kirk was supposedly trained for.
It was a bad decision, however emotionally right it might have felt. Did it make for a more exciting, emotional scene? Yes.

497. TUP - September 26, 2013

Kirk & Spock could hear each other through the chamber because Kirk turned on a communication channel. As for it being transparent, well we know they have transparent aluminum.

Orci’s excuses annoy me.

“We demoted Kirk”. That doesnt change the fact that what was done in 09 was ridiculous. It didn’t undo a very poor creative decision. If anything, it put an exclamation point on a very bad creative decision that should never have made it out of the writers room.

“We grew the trifecta”. Really?

“We made Scotty less humorous”. No you didnt. Giving him one poorly written and out of place “serious” scene did not make Scotty a serious character. Even when he MURDERED a man, it was played for laughs. I accept that Scott is the comic relief character. I accept that he was often hilarious in TOS. But he was deadly serious about his work. And that was not

498. TUP - September 26, 2013

And let me add, if these film makers retcon this guy as NOT KHAN, they can go write fan fiction. That would be a cop out.

I want writers that can actually see their own stupidity before it makes screen, not after when we all point out the obvious.

499. Curious Cadet - September 26, 2013

@485. dswynne1,
“(TrekkieJan): Stop nit-picking … 1) Transwarp Beaming – confiscated by Starfleet…which was flat out stated by Scotty. 2) Khan’s “magic blood” – cellular restoration, but you can still be killed by phaser or disruptor fire. Besides, how is the blood thing worse than Spock returning from the dead via the Genesis Wave of WoK?”

I don’t think it’s fair to say she was nitpicking. She made the same observation the series creators made when they invented the transporter, for instance. While it solves some problems, it creates others. I think Star Trek ultimately spent a lot of unescessary time explaining why the transporter couldn’t be used in some situations, thanks to continually pushing the boundaries of its capabilities to solve other problems they created. In other words, they created a problem they HAD to solve. So Starfleet confiscated Scott’s formula. Easy answer. How exactly do that again? Lobotomize Scott? What’s to stop Scotty from just reconstructing it and using it whenever the Enterprise gets into a jam?

The magic blood is a real problem, because it not only brings a dead tribble back to life in pure form, but also a human in serum form. It also reconstructs irradiated (destroyed) tissue, which means it should be able grow a new head if one is decapiatated. And it cures incurable diseases. It’s pretty amazing stuff, and eliminates the spectre of death in all cases short of being completely disintegrated by a phaser blast. So it’s a legitimate question to ask how the writers will death with such a panacea, just like Roddenberry had to ask how the transporter created out of budgetary concerns of landing a ship on a planet every week, would be prevented from easily saving the heros whenever they faced a threat.

What I get tired of are defenses that invoke past Star Trek issues like Genesis. That’s a pure straw man argument. Nobody said anything about Genesis, so what do the arguable flaws of one movie written by different writers have to do with a McGuffin created in STID. The answer: nothing. Kahn’s magic blood creates a legitimate storytelling concern going forward, one that will actually have to be addressed by the writers. And if they simply ignore it, then fans will simply have to check their knowledge of canon (and I mean just that created by these two Abrams films) at the door to enjoy them. Over the course of a 50 year franchise that’s probably acceptable, but over the span of three movies in (hopefully) less than 7 years? Even Transformer fans I don’t think would accept that …

500. Gary 8.5 - September 26, 2013

RE:Scotty.
Different tiimeline , different version of the character.

501. TUP - September 26, 2013

The magic blood. I didnt have a huge issue with it at first (other than the very hack-ish way they foreshadowed it) but they really did screw the pooch on this one.

They have cured death. Period.

Simpler way to use it would have been Kirk was not actually dead. But they were so determined to have their big emotional scene, only to undo it moments later.

Horrible.

502. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

@468. Marja

“How long was Khan in Marcus’s clutches?”

I’ve been wondering about that too! It could have been from the Kelvin, onwards, and maybe was, judging by how upset he was. He had to learn everything about his surroundings, catch up on a lot of design, gain Marcus’ trust, etc. even if he wasn’t as influential as CC and I have been speculating.

“TREKKIE JAN AND CURIOUS CADET: I’m really enjoying your analysis and “retKhan” – ironing out the possibilities we could have examined a little better in the theatre had the movie run, say, an extra 15 minutes. The characters could have discussed this stuff! Wouldn’t that have been cool. Oh well.”

It’s been mostly CC’s smarts, but thanks. I actually think if they were going for a more sympathetic Khan they might have cast differently. I love Cumberbatch but IMO he plays smart great, but wasn’t really all that charming in this role. (Feel free to hate me, Cumby’s legions of fangirls. He *was* a smart marketing decision from that standpoint and a certain amount of people will see him sympathetically no matter what.)

I would have loved to see Taran Fahir in this role. I still want a show about Captain Robau, darn it!

I think the casting choice actually set the fans against each other too – those who love Cumberbatch no matter what and those who wish the casting was given to an actor of the right ethnicity. But conflict with the fans probably translates to free publicity too. *sigh*

For the record, I would not mind a retcon (assuming everyone’s telling the truth now) where Cumberbatch turns out to be Khan’s second in command, taking the title, because the wake-up sequence of the Botany Bay was broken due to the Kelvin – like everything else in this universe.

And remember folks, I think I was either the sole fan here or one of the few fans to think a return to Khan would be cool.

Boy, will he be in trouble when the real Khan wakes up.

“435 Jack, Ha-ha, “gooey and sunny” doesn’t sell these days, unless it’s a family movie. And Trek, regrettably, is no longer suitable for kids under 12. Trek should not be about gooey sunny stuff anyway. I like when it takes on hard questions. That’s one of the things I liked about STiD. If only the characters had had time to discuss these hard questions ….”

I like hard questions too, but after his I’m really hoping for a lighter, more character centric episode – sort of a Voyage Home. These actors are so good and we never see enough of any of them. I know the writers can do comedy. The Darkness of this one kept me out of the theater. (Not that my ticket buying ever hurts numbers.)

“441 TrekkieJan, Actually, Roddenberry said mankind’s problems as a species were largely over. What’s wrong with that…? The writers had to look for conflict elsewhere. By and large, they found it. Some of the best Star Trek has little conflict at all. Inner Light, for example. Would it make a good movie…? I’m not sure. I’d still probably watch it. And some of the conflicts in TOS were those of worldviews: one of my favorites is “Errand of Mercy” which examines the contrast between the Klingons’ POV and Kirk’s, and ends with the discovery that neither really knew about or had command of the situation. An excellent episode about how limited our vision can be, and the effects of such. That said, I’d watch this new cast in something like “Inner Light,” but I confess, I’d listen to them reading a really boring novel, I like them so much : )”

I believe I bought the audio book for 09 to hear Quinto! Loved Errand of Mercy. Would love to see a script like that. But really hoping for light moments too.

503. Curious Cadet - September 26, 2013

@495. TrekkieJan,
“Even so, I believe I have a valid point about Kirk’s death. It’s certainly harder to order another to their death – especially for this Kirk who prides himself on not losing a single crewman at the start – but better if it saves more lives by having the guy great at snap decisions making decisions. It was a command decision and something Kirk was supposedly trained for.
It was a bad decision, however emotionally right it might have felt. Did it make for a more exciting, emotional scene? Yes.”

I agree. He needed to order Chekov to his death for instance, and the join Spock to apprehend Khan. Perhaps Spock saves Kirk from death by letting Khan go, thus duplicating Kirk’s sacrifice for Spock in the opening, and Uhura still gets to beam down and save the day.

I’m no writer, but I would think the first rule of sacrificing your hero would be because there is no other choice.

In this case Kirk had other choices. And why Scotty didn’t chime in with options or volunteer himself is beyond me. In TWOK it was different. Scotty was incapacitated, as were the injured engineering crew, Bones didn’t have the skills required, and that left ONLY Spock. Now why Spock, sensing trouble on the bridge didn’t order an engineering support crew to meet him, among other problems with that choice, we’ll never know, this isn’t about TWOK’s problems. The point is Kirk wasn’t the only guy who could have saved the day in STID, he literally had to punch Scotty unconscious to make a bad command decision.

504. MJB - September 26, 2013

496. TUP

Yada, yada, yada, blah…blah…blah. That’s all I hear when members of the NuTrek Haters Society speak.

505. TUP - September 26, 2013

In WOK, Spock was the only one who could withstand the radiation long enough to succeed. I mean, come on guys. Criticise but not needlessly.

506. Cygnus-X1 - September 26, 2013

496. TUP – September 26, 2013

—Kirk & Spock could hear each other through the chamber because Kirk turned on a communication channel.—

Ahh…I think you’re right. I just re-watched the scene and we do see Kirk’s right hand reach down and out of the frame prior to his dialogue with Spock.

—“We grew the trifecta”. Really?—

They problem they’ve created for themselves is that, by turning Spock into a character that has an emotional breakdown in every movie, they’ve eliminated the need for Bones in the original troika.

In fact, they’ve kind of eliminated the original Spock role from the troika as well. Gone are the logic vs. emotionalism struggles from TOS. BR’s Spock is known more for his emotionalism than for his rigid logic. That’s my impression, anyway. I mean, they did throw in that ridiculous lovers’ quarrel scene between Spock and Uhura on the shuttle with Kirk caught in the middle (very professional behavior for Star Fleet officers, ay?) but that little lark of a scene is greatly outweighed by Spock’s later emotional outburst in the shameless Khan-death-scene rip-off. I don’t know…maybe there were some other scenes in which Spock represents rigid logic, but if there were, they didn’t make much of an impression on me.

500. TUP – September 26, 2013

—But they were so determined to have their big emotional scene, only to undo it moments later. Horrible.—

Just as, to a lesser extent, they demoted Kirk only to return him to rank of Captain a few minutes later. They’re both examples of a mechanical, plot-based approach to writing the story, as opposed to a more character-based approach that would have had Kirk promoted back to Captain at the end of an arc wherein he’d learned a meaningful lesson.

507. Cygnus-X1 - September 26, 2013

I mean TOWK*-death-scene rip-off.

508. Gary 8.5 - September 26, 2013

500.
I assume you have serious issues with the character of Logan/Wolverine from the X-Men Movies ,
Logan in effect has “Magic DNA” which heals him instantly and the first solo Wolverine film as well as the comics hint he has lived for centuries because of it .
Logans healing properties are the resultof a genic mutation .
Khans are a result of genetic engineering a kind of”Directed Mutation”.
It was intentional in Khans case, but, the result is the same.
As for curing death , it has long been established in Treklore that there is a limited window of opportunity to bring somebody back from the dead ,
for lack of a better term.
I believe Bones even said that he didnt have much time .

509. Gary 8.5 - September 26, 2013

500.
I assume you have serious issues with the character of Logan/Wolverine from the X-Men Movies ,
Logan in effect has “Magic DNA” which heals him instantly and the first solo Wolverine film as well as the comics hint he has lived for centuries because of it .
Logans healing properties are the resultof a genic mutation .
Khans are a result of genetic engineering a kind of”Directed Mutation”.
It was intentional in Khans case, but, the result is the same.
As for curing death , it has long been established in Treklore that there is a limited window of opportunity to bring somebody back from the dead ,
for lack of a better term.
I believe Bones even said that he didnt have much time .

510. Gary 8.5 - September 26, 2013

I didnt intend for the double post.
I stand by my points though .

511. TUP - September 26, 2013

@502 – nope, not a hater. I supported the decision to use Khan before the movie came out. I wrote a very good review of the movie when I saw it. I still like the movie a lot. But as a life-long fan, I’m more bothered by the obvious mis-steps that, if corrected, would have made the film that much better.

It just feels like these three writers sat in a room patting each other on the back rather than challenging the ideas and plot holes. You dont have to demiss magic blood outright, but debating the holes could result in those holes being closed.

I also agree that this Spock is too emotional. I understand we’re seeing him younger. But they’ve made him an action star. And not just an action star, but the smart action star. Therefore Kirk gets dumbed down. And Bones’ words of wisdom are barely-amusing complaints rather than moral objections.

These writers dont “get” Star Trek enough to write the drama and characters.

They had no plan for Star Trek. They should have had a three-movie arc planned, at least in their minds before 09 came out. It would have prevented some of the mis-steps.

512. TUP - September 26, 2013

The Marvel Movies are science fantasy not science fiction. And its never been established (as far as I know) that Logan’s blood can bring someone back from the dead. Healing is one thing. Reviving is something else altogether.

The issue is not timing. I can accept that Khans blood would not revive a decomposed corpse. But the expectation for the next film is that starships are no longer needed since we have transwarp beaming. And everyone will carry vials of “death cure syrum”. Die? No problem, someone merely injects you and voila, you’re back.

513. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

@506. Gary 8.5

“I assume you have serious issues with the character of Logan/Wolverine from the X-Men Movies ”

Logan comes from the same place that has a man who got super powers from being bitten by a radioactive spider. I have no problems with Logan or Spiderman or Luke Skywalker – they’re logical within their own universes (if you discount mitachlorians.) It’s science fantasy – heavy on the fantasy, exceedingly light on the science. (In fact the science usually only sounds like science because they throw around words that sound scientific, like “cold fusion.”

Traditionally, Star Trek was Science Fiction, and the stories and plots based on real world science. It’s kind of sad for us who *loved* it that way.

514. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

502. Curious Cadet

“I agree. He needed to order Chekov to his death for instance, and the join Spock to apprehend Khan. Perhaps Spock saves Kirk from death by letting Khan go, thus duplicating Kirk’s sacrifice for Spock in the opening, and Uhura still gets to beam down and save the day.”

Wouldn’t it have been heart wrenching for Chekov to stop Kirk (oh come on, every body else can!) and sacrifice himself to save the captain for the greater good?

Beautiful post in defense of TWOK above, thank you for that. Really enjoying your posts.

515. TUP - September 26, 2013

Captain Kirk in either universe would have rushed into the radiation rather than order someone else to. Every time.

What the writers didnt realise in rehasing the scene was why it HAD to be Spock in WoK.

516. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

@515. TUP
“Captain Kirk in either universe would have rushed into the radiation rather than order someone else to. Every time.”

Shatner/Kirk would have outsmarted the radiation.

“What the writers didnt realise in rehasing the scene was why it HAD to be Spock in WoK.”

Agreed.

517. Anthony Lewis - September 26, 2013

@512

Presuming that transwarp beaming has become 100% safe (they established that it wasn’t in ST09) I would still assume that it works much in the same way normal beaming does and that means knowing where you are going.

Take Stargate SG-1 for example, they need to dial an address before they can go anywhere, you just can’t explore unknown space by just randomly beaming people and hope they wind up on a planet. It might be fine for travel to places we know about, but clearly wouldn’t fit in with Starfleet’s main goal of exploration.

Secondly, Trek has cured death A LOT pretty much from the inception. You might not agree with it, but it isn’t like there was no precedence for it happening in Trek before.

518. Buzz Cagney - September 26, 2013

#516 he couldn’t outsmart a falling bridge! And how do you outsmart radiation? Play peek-a-boo with it? Hide behind a smile and hope that it likes you?
It didn’t have much emotional impact though, did it. The actors did what they could I guess but I found it more groan worthy than anything.
And Quinto’s so obvious i’m gona out do Shats, ‘Khannnnnnnn’ just made me laugh out loud.
Hey ho. Its all water under the bridge now. Onwards and upwards with the next movie.

519. Vultan - September 26, 2013

Yeah, the TWOK ripoffs are annoying, but what jumped out at me the most while watching it were the repeated things from the 2009 movie. Quite a few of them.

How many times are we going to see the Enterprise rise out of something? They’ve done clouds. They’ve done water. What’s next? A cake? Jell-O mold? Maybe… a pile of leaves.

520. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

@518. Buzz
“he couldn’t outsmart a falling bridge!”

Doh!

“It didn’t have much emotional impact though, did it. The actors did what they could I guess but I found it more groan worthy than anything.”

I think it depends on who you were as to how effective it was. I’m surprised it was effective on some people – those people seem surprised that it was a face palm moment for me.

I’m sorry it wasn’t crafted to be a better moment for everyone.

“Hey ho. Its all water under the bridge now. Onwards and upwards with the next movie.”

Yes. Hopefully they’re reading comments like:

“I wouldn’t mind if they retconned it not to be Khan,”

and:

“If they retcon it so that it’s not Khan (I’ll be unhappy!) (paraphrased)

So that their future course will be clear!

521. TUP - September 26, 2013

I liked the scene. I just had issues with undoing it moments later. I even liked Spock’s yell. But it might have resonated better if he wasn’t emotional…of the emotional was bubbling beneath the surface. Imagine Nimoy playing that scene…powerful.

But I suppose the point was Spock being overwhelmed at Kirk’s death but they play this Spock so emotional as it is.

522. Gary 8.5 - September 26, 2013

513 Yes, Star Trek Is Science Fiction .
But they have not always dealt with Death in a scientifically realistic way.
How about Nomad Bringing Scotty back from the dead?
How exactly did he do that ?
And what about The Curator healing MCoy in Shore Leave?
Apparently Magic Machines are OK in Star Trek.

523. Keachick - September 26, 2013

#496 – No, I have always been Keachick since first posting a comment to an internet site on 16 September 2009. I found this site in June 2010.

I can recall a poster TrekPrincess commenting on other sites, but I have no idea who this person is.

From memory, Chris Pine played a character called Lord Nicholas Devereux in the Princess Diaries 2. It is possible that if this character had married the newly crowned Queen Mia, he would have become her ‘consort’ but I am uncertain as to what new title he might have also received upon marriage to a queen.

524. Keachick - September 26, 2013

#519 – Why not?

525. Ahmed - September 26, 2013

@ 523. Keachick – September 26, 2013

“#496 – No, I have always been Keachick since first posting a comment to an internet site on 16 September 2009. I found this site in June 2010.”

wow, you actually remember the date when you first posted on the Internet. I’m impressed

526. Marja - September 26, 2013

494 Cygnus, “That they didn’t make such choices for exposition is an example of lazy writing”[quote not exact]

I don’t know, C. <– lazy writing on my part : ) Maybe a lot of decisions to elide things were done [startlingly] on a budget basis. Where would they have filmed that exposition scene? If in Khan’s ship, they would have had to “inset” some frames involving a panel or some such and Khan’s hand touching buttons. $.

I’ve been wondering myself if these decisions were financially budget-related or time-budget-related, to allow more time for mass death and destruction. Personally I think limiting the movie to two hours led to a number of scripting issues. Maybe the writers had to make the time decisions as they wrote: “well, we should have a little exposition here, but we need X minutes for that other scene – JJ needs time for this or that cool special effect and look of that scene” and “Yeah, the general audience won’t notice that, and Trekfans love nitpicking ….”

Cygnus, “cheap” is pretty relative. What if they’d already blown their $ budget ..? As I said, a startling idea. Look at all the stuff Special FX designed to be used on Nibiru [the society’s weapons and other accoutrements]. All those designers had to be paid for things that weren’t even used when it came to filming. Oy. The additional sets built for Enterprise were lovely but I imagine quite costly. And all those wonderful dress uniforms [I liked them a lot]!

496 TrekkieJan, To be clear, in my earlier post, I meant Kirk’s order to Spock to captain the Enterprise was before he and Khan space-dived to Vengeance. Immediately upon returning from that disastrous mission, Scotty and Kirk headed right for Engineering.

I believe I have a valid point about Kirk’s death. It’s certainly harder to order another to their death – especially for this Kirk who prides himself on not losing a single crewman at the start – but better if it saves more lives by having the guy great at snap decisions making decisions.

Two points I’d like to bring up. [1] “Ordering an officer to their death” was not brought up in Command Training until ST:TNG. [2] Dramatically, Kirk prides himself on never losing a crewman, but at this point in the movie, Kirk has seemingly decided he himself is not able to do a good job of commanding Enterprise.

In his mind Enterprise is safer under Spock’s command. So he makes that split-second decision to go into the Radiation chamber, to sacrifice himself for the greater good in true Kirk tradition as established by George Kirk in ST09. And there seems to me no way Kirk could have outsmarted the radiation … although that would be no more magical than some other things in the story : )

527. Marja - September 26, 2013

498 TUP ‘“We made Scotty less humorous”. No you didnt. Giving him one poorly written and out of place “serious” scene did not make Scotty a serious character. Even when he MURDERED a man, it was played for laughs.’

I’m not sure which “serious” scene you’re talking about. I’m assuming it was just before Kirk accepted his resignation. As far as MURDERING a man, it was at least Manslaughter, or perhaps “Stand Your Ground” [If I may make a very poor Florida joke]. Remember Scotty was trying to save the Enterprise. The fact that he said “sorry” as he spaced the huge guy who was going to stop him saving the Enterprise and was possibly going to kill him is a tiny light moment in an otherwise very scary scene.

I think really the only scene in which he was played for laughs was the comms call between him and Kirk when Scotty was in the bar. When he was running down that huge hangar bay in Vengeance, the fact that he gave an explosive sigh did make me smile, but I was identifying with him. It made him more human to me. That seems to be forgotten in many “hero” movies.

Scotty’s not the paragon of physical fitness Kirk is. Look at Kirk, he can take being kicked in the face and not get any bruises! And Spock, too! One little cut on his nose?? [One fanfic writer had the bruises come out later, which I think is pretty realistic]. But no scrapes? And though Kirk [Pine] is very handsome, he could have done with some peeling skin or burns on his face as he’s saying goodbye to Spock. [Maybe those don’t come out till later either?] Though I do understand your point at 498. See my comments above for my ideas/excuses on why these happened….

499 Curious, but the fans had to check realistic ideas out the door when they saw Genesis in TWOK. I think that’s the basis of the comparison and the commenter is just pointing out that Trek has never been a great example of consistency in science. We can retcon Genesis as much as we can retcon things in these two movies, I suppose.

Genesis, dramatically, was a terrifying thing, as McCoy pointed out. Carol was proud of it being a great terraforming tool. Peter was the one who made the boo-boo in the protomatter department. So, smart retcon before the film hit the screen. I agree with you on your point that writers should catch this stuff, but O&K & L were under the gun to get it done in a hurry [b/c of all the other projects they did in the 2.5/3 years before they began the script]. Quite annoying to all of us.

Your 501, yeah, but as Phil pointed out months ago, nobody would buy that either, b/c Kirk’s cells had been irradiated and death was inevitable … could Khan’s blood have reversed irradiation? He thought not.

528. Marja - September 26, 2013

502 TrekkieJan, Faran Tahir [with hair] would have been a great choice, but they may have thought he was too familiar to audiences as Robau? IDEK. Decisions were not always the best. Maybe Tahir was on another project? They thought he wouldn’t draw at the box office? Haha, maybe because he wasn’t Hispanic, what a joke.

“For the record, I would not mind a retcon (assuming everyone’s telling the truth now) where Cumberbatch turns out to be Khan’s second in command, taking the title….”

I could believe the Arrogant Augments would all take the title ‘Khan’ when they introduce themselves to us lowly regular humans. But I, too, hope [if we must see him again] he is retconned to Joachim. Though some fans will hate that too.

I’d listen to them reading a really boring novel, I like them so much : ) Yep, I bought the ST09 Audiobook too….

503 Curious, I don’t think Kirk gave Scotty a chance to offer himself. Though I know some fans would be happy if Simon Pegg were out of the picture, I do not count myself among them. I love him as Scotty!

— I’m with you on the TWOK thing. I seem to remember Kirk having to take a fraction of time to press a button too. It pointed up the distance opening up between him and his friend of 20 years.

529. Marja - September 26, 2013

506 Cygnus, Horrible.—[TUP] …. “Just as, to a lesser extent, they demoted Kirk only to return him to rank of Captain a few minutes later. They’re both examples of a mechanical, plot-based approach to writing the story, as opposed to a more character-based approach that would have had Kirk promoted back to Captain at the end of an arc wherein he’d learned a meaningful lesson.”
I’ve said a couple of times that Kirk would have been much better served if he had been Pike’s First Officer with Spock as Science Officer. And for dramatic parallel to TOS, Pike could have gone into the chamber, because he trusts Jim to become an ace starship commander. THAT would have been really cool. And we’d have gotten to see more of Mr Greenwood, yay! Kirk and Spock could have had a significant bonding moment over Pike’s death. [I still hate that they killed Pike in the way they did.]

I disagree with you on Spock, e.g. the Shuttle scene with C Marcus. [though some fans put that down to "jealousy" I'm sure he was puzzling out why Marcus was there, thinking ahead.

On the Bridge he was quite cool and logical in every moment except when he ordered the crew to evacuate and they wouldn’t. There was some urgency/emotion in his voice. And I’ll allow for actorly expression in Spock’s look of concern when Kirk was in Khan’s clutches on the bridge of Vengeance.

The “emotional breakdowns” happened once in each movie [okay, Spock was a child for the first one in ST09] – at/after significant life-devastating events. I put it down to a significant case of PTSD. He lost his whole planet, for heavens’ sake. [Many don’t count Kirk’s death as one, but I do, as Spock was finally beginning to understand friendship, and definitely understood sacrifice.]

People who constantly compare Quinto negatively in comparison with Nimoy seem to have forgotten [a] that Quinto and Nimoy consulted on the role and [b] that Nimoy brought a lot of emotion to the role in the TOS timeline – more subdued, but it was there. There were times Spock smiled, there were times he was insouciant, and so on. In the ST09 scene he was subdued but he was an elder and had seen much heartbreak. Elders have acquired so much wisdom c/w the young. Wisdom is knowing and questioning terrible things. And I believe I may have seen tears in his eyes ….

530. Marja - September 26, 2013

508 Gary, yeah, but Wolverine is a Marvel comic, for heavens’ sake. Trek is supposed to be more scientifically based. Supposed to be, I say ; )

511 TUP, “had no plan for Star Trek. They should have had a three-movie arc planned, at least in their minds before 09 came out. It would have prevented some of the mis-steps.”

Personally I have a bad feeling about a three-movie arc. I have a terrible feeling we will see Klingons as a significant part of Trek3. They were “seeded” in ST09, and shown in STiD. I don’t want to see much of them in Trek3! And I disagree, given more screen time and less destruction/violence, I think the writers do “get” ST. They just don’t get time enough to write more TOS-type scenes for the characters b/c of the limitations of a two-hour movie, to which I say, bleah. Cut the violence, give us more character. Damn Summer Blockbusters.

511 AnthonyL, “Secondly, Trek has cured death A LOT pretty much from the inception. You might not agree with it, but it isn’t like there was no precedence for it happening in Trek before.” Yep!

518 Buzz, “It didn’t have much emotional impact though, did it. The actors did what they could I guess but I found it more groan worthy than anything.”

It had emotional impact on me the first time I saw it, I gotta tell you.

“And Quinto’s so obvious i’m gona out do Shats, ‘Khannnnnnnn’ just made me laugh out loud.”

I hope other people in the theatre didn’t hear you. I don’t think Quinto decided to outdo Shat. I’m not sure he’s even seen TWOK. He did the best he could with a crappy line. I’ve said from the start that the same “Nooo!” shout he did the first time he almost killed Kirk in ST09 would have been FAR better and completed a dramatic circle. The writers just couldn’t resist doing the cheesy.

519 Vultan “How many times are we going to see the Enterprise rise out of something? They’ve done clouds. They’ve done water. What’s next? A cake? Jell-O mold? Maybe… a pile of leaves.”

HAHAHAHAHAH! Agree – though I think the scenes are lovely, twice in one movie is too much ….

531. Keachick - September 26, 2013

“And emotionally, not to offend, but it rarely helps any argument to bring in Hitler. It’s a very hot button topic for some of us. (JJ for one, I’d imagine.)”

Actually the mention of Hitler has been a hot button since the Second World War and especially when the Nazis surrendered and the Allies managed to get to see just how terribly awful Hitler and his supporters had perpetrated on a large number of people…You do not have to be Jewish, Gypsy or homosexual or any of the other people victimized by that regime not to be so emotionally horrified and torn.

Perhaps, that IS the point. Hitler and his supporters proved that they were capable or ordering and/or carrying out the most despotic of crimes against other human beings and yet one of the reasons why we know so much is because they did not lie (for the most part) when it came to record keeping. Now do you understand?

All people are capable of lying and the same people are also able to tell the truth. We tend to judge a person’s moral integrity by what we have seen them capable of doing in certain situations and often presume to assess that they will behave in exactly the same way in other circumstances.

For example, a person is convicted of robbing a particular drugstore (say). They do their time and come out. The same drugstore gets robbed again. Immediately the original robber is often the first to be questioned because of his prior behaviour. It is a presumption only…

It is a bias which can lead to serious consequences that can be the result of illegitimate and shonky thinking/presumption.

532. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

@528. Marja
“Faran Tahir [with hair] would have been a great choice, but they may have thought he was too familiar to audiences as Robau?”

Yes, I agree, he would be too familiar. (And ditto on the hair.) It would only work if he hadn’t been Robau. And I would not wish to undo Robau – he was one of my favorite things about 09.

“Haha, maybe because he wasn’t Hispanic, what a joke.”

Believe it or not, I’ve heard that joke elsewhere. I remember when Orci was hoping to get Benito Del Tores…whom I like, but glad he wasn’t cast as Khan.

“I could believe the Arrogant Augments would all take the title ‘Khan’ when they introduce themselves to us lowly regular humans. But I, too, hope [if we must see him again] he is retconned to Joachim. Though some fans will hate that too.”

That’s a great idea about them all assuming the title. I’d love for BC to be Joachim too – but as is obvious here, you can’t please everyone. Just give us a great story so we roll with the parts we don’t like.

533. Curious Cadet - September 26, 2013

@517. Anthony Lewis,
“Trek has cured death A LOT pretty much from the inception. You might not agree with it, but it isn’t like there was no precedence for it happening in Trek before.”

While the criticism from many comes off that way, for me at least it’s not about precedent, or even the fact that they did it. It’s the way they did it. And frankly I don’t even necessarily mind the way they did it, however implausible. But they did open up a big can of worms which they will have to address one way or the other. There is now a readily available substance that cures death. That’s a serious problem in dramatic storytelling where the spectre of death is a constant threat. And that’s what I object to.

534. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

@526. Marja
“To be clear, in my earlier post, I meant Kirk’s order to Spock to captain the Enterprise was before he and Khan space-dived to Vengeance. Immediately upon returning from that disastrous mission, Scotty and Kirk headed right for Engineering.”

You’re right, you’re quite right. My mind checked out about then, thinking about Augment-sickles and why on earth would Khan do that…I missed that completely. Thank you.

“Two points I’d like to bring up. [1] “Ordering an officer to their death” was not brought up in Command Training until ST:TNG.

This is true. I was going to bring up that officers are always ordering people to their death – but in fact, that’s not quite accurate, is it? They do order them into danger. We actually get pretty upset when they order people to their death. (Gallipoli, for example.) At any rate, I hope the repaired Enterprise has a core adjustment servo with a manual control…outside the chamber.

[2] Dramatically, Kirk prides himself on never losing a crewman, but at this point in the movie, Kirk has seemingly decided he himself is not able to do a good job of commanding Enterprise.

That’s rather sad, isn’t it? But it was also a factor of time.

“In his mind Enterprise is safer under Spock’s command. So he makes that split-second decision to go into the Radiation chamber, to sacrifice himself for the greater good in true Kirk tradition as established by George Kirk in ST09.”

Yes, very good observation. These Kirk boys need to stop with the death thing.

“And there seems to me no way Kirk could have outsmarted the radiation … although that would be no more magical than some other things in the story : )”

Hahaha – no, that was the silliest of Shatner jokes. Now, if it had been a computer…

535. Keachick - September 26, 2013

#527 – “When he was running down that huge hangar bay in Vengeance, the fact that he gave an explosive sigh did make me smile, but I was identifying with him…”

Oh Yes. Every time I see that run and hear that loud sigh, I get the giggles, but the giggles are well intended. I can’t help myself. Part of me thinks – “hey, come on. That is not really funny…” but I still giggle. In fact, I giggle more then than I do at other scenes that were (supposedly) written to be funny. There is another tiny scene (it has slipped my tired, sieve-like mind right now) where I also start giggling. It is not funny. It is showing something horrible, bad and yet with this particular scene, unlike others, I still get the giggles. Perhaps it has something to do with there possibly being a little subtle black (graveyard) humour thrown in. Who knows.

Marja – You and I are in complete agreement about there being too much violence. I also feel that my desire to see less violence in this movie compared with ST09 have been ignored. This has confused and saddened me. However, Bob Orci, on the podcast, admitted to liking a “good fight”. If the other males of the Supreme Court are of a similar persuasion, this would explain the level of violence.

Behaviours of genuine heroes may take several forms, however, what we are being shown is often very limited, repetitive and boring.

As for what may constitute a “good fight” and at the risk of *boring* some people – well, women everywhere undergo a “good fight” whenever they go into labour and deliver a new human being onto this planet. Even in this affluent society, where medical aid abounds, labour often requires every ounce of strength but it takes the form of what might be described as “psychic strength”. Each contraction feels like an eternity and there is an *incredible force being exerted; sometimes you really do believe that you will die…In fact, women can die simply because of the shock and trauma of the pain.

It has also been established that the vast majority of males with their inherit constitution would not survive labour.

* Someone stated that if one could harness the energy created by the force exerted in a typical, healthy labour, you would be able to light up all of Chicago for 24 hours…

This leads me to another aspect of the two movies which I have a problem with. It has been brought up before, not only by me but by others as well. Star Trek 2009 introduced the audience to two mothers, Spock’s mother Amanda and Kirk’s mother Winona. Well, we were told what happened to Spock’s mother, however, even by the end of this second movie, we still have no idea of the where, what, why’s of Kirk’s MOTHER, a widowed Winona. She fought that “good fight” and won for both of them…

That is NOT GOOD ENOUGH. It is disrespectful to the character and I believe symbolizes a disrespect for mothers in general. Unfortunately, this shoddy, dismissive treatment is also indicative of a general imbalance found within many societies.

I have no desire to piss anyone off, including Bob Orci, but this needs to be said, even repeated…Do you understand, Bob Orci, as one of the writers of this film series?

536. Curious Cadet - September 26, 2013

@526 Marja/TrekkieJan,
“Dramatically, Kirk prides himself on never losing a crewman, but at this point in the movie, Kirk has seemingly decided he himself is not able to do a good job of commanding Enterprise. In his mind Enterprise is safer under Spock’s command. So he makes that split-second decision to go into the Radiation chamber, to sacrifice himself for the greater good in true Kirk tradition as established by George Kirk in ST09.”/”We actually get pretty upset when they order people to their death.”

Excellent points. Of course any changes I have proposed come with their own corresponding adjustments.

Kirk’s on a rather self-destructive course isn’t he? I’m not sure we like seeing the hero go down in flames either, which without Khan’s blood is what seems to have happened. That’s why I said earlier, put Kirk in a situation where he is the ONLY choice to save the ship, just like George Kirk. Why even raise the issue of whether it was the right decision, or question the others? Only give him one choice. Likewise, if he sent Chekov into the chamber, it’s because he couldn’t physically do it himself, and once again it would be the ONLY choice to save the ship.

The thought occurs though, how would George Kirk’s sacrifice have been perceived if we learned later one of the shuttles beamed him off the ship at the last second and he survived? Would it have meant as much in hindsight, or would we have felt cheated, or deceived?

537. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

@Keachick
#496 – No, I have always been Keachick since first posting a comment to an internet site on 16 September 2009.

Awww! Something about your writing reminds me of her. I miss her on this board. She was super sweet.

And yes, that’s an amazing memory.

538. Phil - September 26, 2013

@533. Nah, it’s a throw-away plot device, and Trek is littered with them. They’ll ignore it, just like so many others.

539. Keachick - September 26, 2013

#536 – No, the only question I would be asking is – Where is George Kirk? and/or “Thank God! He actually made it!”

The heroism stems from the person being seriously prepared to make various sacrifices, in order to secure the wellbeing of others, if possible. George Kirk had proved that, while he still lived, in those last few moments.

If, it turns out that he did not die, it should be a cause for celebration and he be decorated as a hero.

540. TrekkieJan - September 26, 2013

@536 – Curious Cadet

“Kirk’s on a rather self-destructive course isn’t he?”

Good observation. Survival guilt over his father? I’ll never be good enough until I die to save a ship?

Come to think of it, isn’t this exactly what Pike challenged him to do? (Unintentionally?)

“That’s why I said earlier, put Kirk in a situation where he is the ONLY choice to save the ship, just like George Kirk. Why even raise the issue of whether it was the right decision, or question the others? Only give him one choice. Likewise, if he sent Chekov into the chamber, it’s because he couldn’t physically do it himself, and once again it would be the ONLY choice to save the ship.”

If you’re not a writer, you should be.

“The thought occurs though, how would George Kirk’s sacrifice have been perceived if we learned later one of the shuttles beamed him off the ship at the last second and he survived? Would it have meant as much in hindsight, or would we have felt cheated, or deceived?”

I would have been relieved, for my part. He passed the test, either way, after all. (And as filmed, his death looks pretty unnecessary anyway. If they’d beamed him out nothing would have changed.) But it would have affected Jim Kirk, and apparently that’s the path these writers are choosing to explore.

541. Curious Cadet - September 26, 2013

@538. Phil,
“Nah, it’s a throw-away plot device, and Trek is littered with them. They’ll ignore it, just like so many others.”

That’s what I’m assuming, and to tell the truth, that’s what I’m really objecting to.

It’s also why I don’t expect the IDW comic to depict an identity change from Montalban to Cumberbatch. Easier just to ignore it and let it dissipate on its own … the patience for which comes easy with a $467 million boxoffice and number one home video release.

542. Keachick - September 26, 2013

#532 – In an earlier post (on this thread?), I had already suggested that several of the people in cryostasis shared the name Khan, if not all. I had also suggested that this Khan – one who is clearly of Celtic/European descent and spoke good English, was the man who either ruled, or was intended to rule, the UK and English speaking part of the globe.

I will further add now that the one known as Khan Noonien Singh to prime Spock was the man who ruled the Indian/Middle Eastern part of the planet. Furthermore there is a black man of African descent who would also call himself Khan, being responsible for ruling the African continent, not to mention a man of Chinese and/or other Asian descent named Khan as well…

Marcus simply woke up the English Khan, whereas the Indian Khan was awoken in Space Seed.

543. Curious Cadet - September 26, 2013

@540. TrekkieJan,
“Good observation. Survival guilt over his father? I’ll never be good enough until I die to save a ship? Come to think of it, isn’t this exactly what Pike challenged him to do? (Unintentionally?)”

Well I give credit to Marja who noted it above as to why Kirk in part made his split second decision — he was a lousy captain, so he would be more useful dead. That’s a pretty bitter pill on which to become a hero.

Anyway, good observation on your part for connecting the dots. I hadn’t really taken it that far. Ironic isn’t it. I’m sure Kirk was thinking, “hey my dad only saved 800 lives, I’m going to save thousands including all those people they would crash into on Earth. Captain Pike, I did better!” LOL

I suppose if we had learned George had been saved, that the audience would have been happy. But it’s still kind of a cheat as the scene is so emotional, and part of the impact is that he died. I was trying to relate it to Kirk’s resuscitation, which also was a cheat … the audience is taken through the emotional roller coaster, only to have it all erased 10 minutes later. At least with Spock’s death in TWOK, his resuscitation was was an ordeal for all concerned, and at the end, you still weren’t sure if it worked. It took 3 full movies to get Spock back to any semblance of who he was before. Today’s audiences I guess can’t be bothered.

544. Captain, USS Northstar - September 26, 2013

@533:

Keep in mind — no amount of blood serum is going to cure an exploding starship.

Just sayin’….

545. Keachick - September 26, 2013

#503 – “In this case Kirk had other choices. And why Scotty didn’t chime in with options or volunteer himself is beyond me… The point is Kirk wasn’t the only guy who could have saved the day in STID, he literally had to punch Scotty unconscious to make a bad command decision.”

Scotty was volunteering himself. He kept talking about the feasibility, or lack of, in them being able to make the climb. Scotty kept referring to “we” as in he fully expected that both he and Kirk would go into the reactor and set things right. Kirk mutters, “No, you’re not make the climb” and then knocks Scotty out and put Scotty’s seatbelt on…:) Kirk then goes in by himself.

Bad command decision? Maybe. Good Kirk decision? Yes.

In Kirk’s mind, he saw Scotty’s life as being as valuable as his own, perhaps even more so. He also realized that the Enterprise needed its engineer at this point even more than it needed its captain. This behaviour is central to this character’s fundamental value system/integrity and is really the only decision he can live or die with.
`
For example – Episode – Mirror Mirror – when they realize that one must stay behind to operate the transporter, Scotty volunteers to stay behind. Kirk won’t have it and curtly tells Scotty to get on the transporter pad.

Is this also a bad command decision? Maybe.

546. Keachick - September 26, 2013

#543 – “Well I give credit to Marja who noted it above as to why Kirk in part made his split second decision — he was a lousy captain, so he would be more useful dead.”

Kirk was not a lousy captain. He was a young captain on a learning curve. One could even suggest that all of life could be described as a kind of learning curve.

He was able to admit (to Spock) his limitations. That does NOT necessarily make anyone lousy at what they are attempting to do. Another thing – Kirk was not suicidal. Only people who are suicidal consider that they would be more useful dead. The reality was that in order for the Enterprise to get power back, someone had to go into that room and do it manually. Kirk knew what needed to be done and what the chances were of his surviving. Being Kirk, he just got on with it… and frankly, I doubt that whatever went on with his father ever entered his mind – such a silly reference. Kirk lives and dies in the now.

“I suppose if we had learned George had been saved, that the audience would have been happy. But it’s still kind of a cheat as the scene is so emotional, and part of the impact is that he died. I was trying to relate it to Kirk’s resuscitation, which also was a cheat … the audience is taken through the emotional roller coaster, only to have it all erased 10 minutes later.”

I am sorry, but this quote above deserves a double flip of the bird…
WHAAAT? If someone was so close to death and in a coma with brain function not so good along with the rest of the body, the emotional impact of that situation is harrowing, to say the least, on anyone who is close to that near death and comatose patient. People ARE taken on an emotional roller coaster. Eventually everything slows down with the patient… then a new treatment comes along and they decide to try it out on the patient – I mean, what harm could it do? The patient is pretty much dead anyway.

Slowly or perhaps even suddenly the comatose patient’s vital signs improve and continue to improve. Are you actually saying that you would feel cheated because this person start coming alive again, in every real sense? Seriously? You would feel cheated because the person did not die?

Curiously enough, such events have quite spontaneously occurred in some seriously comatose patients, ie their vital signs improve and they become conscious… Some of these people have been this way for years even, *existing* on life-support. Gosh, imagine how *cheated* those relatives must feel?

I am sorry, but this quote above deserves a double flip of the bird…because that is what I would want to give you if that were me or mine.

547. Keachick - September 26, 2013

Re: Pike coming back to life – I would certainly be taken aback. What we have been told is that it is not possible. However, there would be no way I would feel *cheated*. In fact, the emotional impact of him being brought back would have me leaping for joy.

Khan’s “magic blood” is NOT the cure-all death serum at all. It can only work in very specific circumstances, otherwise it is as useless or as useful as anyone else’s blood. It could only work in Kirk’s case, because all the conditions and circumstances allowed for the serum to work, then only just.

Where do people get such false views and, even after explanation, still continue to harbour them? Holy moly.

548. dswynne1 - September 26, 2013

@491 (TrekkieJan): I will agree that there should be science advisers on hand to help with the technical details of the science and technology that is depicted in “Star Trek”. Example: the use of the term “cold fusion” to describe what Spock’s “ice cube bomb” to freeze the volcano on Nibiru. I mean, come on. At least get the terminology right. I would also add that if the producers of next Star Trek film get rid of the “Star Wars-ification” of Star Trek (i.e. no explanation of how science and technology is depicted, and without explanation), a lot of seasoned fans of the franchise will be a lot happier. Personally, and in-continuity explanation would be that the Nerada’s incursion into the past sped up the development of science and technology to TNG levels. Or, close to it…

549. boborci - September 26, 2013

plot hole discussion interesting.

550. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 27, 2013

@489 “One can supplement any story in one’s imagination, but that doesn’t make it part of the story (or the movie) or what the writers necessarily intended, and the result then is ambiguity, at best”

That’s ridiculous. It is so completely obvious that Khan had the highest level of access to star-fleet security, that no explanation is necessary. If you feel you need the writers to “walk you through” something as obvious as Khan getting around security protocols, well, I think that is kind of weak minded, my friend.

“Having the windows at Star Fleet HQ made of glass (instead of, say, transparent aluminum) was a choice that did allow for flashy shards of glass flying all over the place, but as with the ease of Khan’s approach, seeing Star Fleet’s top brass (and my favorite character, Pike) being shot and killed through glass, inside what should have been the most secure and fortified location on Earth, pulled me out of the movie.”

So you were equally pulled out of Star Trek 4 then when these same weak-ass wall-to-wall windows at Starfleet HQ failed in that movie as well, right\? :-))

551. Marja - September 27, 2013

543 Curious, Hey, hey, now – I didn’t say Kirk was a lousy captain! I said he felt at that point [Just before he and Khan flew to the Vengeance] that the Enterprise was better off under Spock’s command. “I don’t know what I’m supposed to do. I only know what I CAN do … The Enterprise and her crew need someone in that chair that knows what he’s doing … it’s not me, that’s YOU, Spock.”

545 Keachick, “In Kirk’s mind, he saw Scotty’s life as being as valuable as his own, perhaps even more so. He also realized that the Enterprise needed its engineer at this point even more than it needed its captain. This behaviour is central to this character’s fundamental value system/integrity and is really the only decision he can live or die with.” YES. As I remember him, Kirk in TOS was heroic in this way. AUKirk is learning humility, and acknowledges that Spock has the command experience to pull Enterprise through safely. Kirk [action hero] saves the ship in the place where he is – he and Scotty came down to Engineering and Kirk knows EXACTLY what he himself can do [as a CO he would be familiar with every function, nook and cranny on that ship, and love every single one] to save the ship in that moment … and undertakes to save hundreds of people.

546 Keachick, my reference to the heroic Kirk family tradition was a tip of the hat to the creators of George and Jim Kirk, not a reference to what Kirk would actually be thinking at that moment. Kirk was probably thinking … “OK knock Scotty out … tie him in for safety … go to the warp core … &c” Courage is grace under pressure.

Curious Cadet: “Kirk’s resuscitation … was a cheat … the audience is taken through the emotional roller coaster, only to have it all erased 10 minutes later.” Well, yeah, it was a cheat on the part of the writers, but how does the audience know that, especially the general audience who may never have seen Trek before? And how does the character, Jim Kirk, know that he’ll be revived? “Oh, la-la-la, I’ll just go in here, do this thing, feel a lotta pain, and I’ll be fine …” No … he gave his life. The fact that the audience sees him come back within 10 minutes has no impact in the moments leading up to Kirk’s death.

It’s this 4th Wall/beyond the 4th Wall thing. Frankly in the theatre I was moved to tears, twice, maybe even three times. Call me overly emotional, I don’t care. That ideal that Kirk lived up to, and his conversation with Spock after, reached me. AND I DIDN’T CARE THAT IT TOOK ELEMENTS OF THE CONVO FROM TWOK. I really didn’t, and I was a hard-core TWOK fan [saw it some 17 times]. I was fine right up until “KHAAAANNNN!” whereupon I winced. I think I just understood that this was the forging of a friendship just when it was too late. And that sad irony just got to me, right in the heart.

As a writer and appreciator of good acting, I appreciated the emotion of the scene. As an analyst, I could see the faults with the emotional roller-coaster aspects of the script, too little character time with too much violence/action time. After a time I perceived the handy emotional manipulation between the action set-pieces [explained quite well by Crit Hulk] which did kinda hurt my feelings.

Personally on this stuff, I’m with Keachick. I guess I really see certain things from the characters’ emotional point of view, at least the first few times. Only after that can I begin to analyze scripting problems. [So I'm probably just the kind of sap the studios like :p ] I, too, would be overjoyed if they could bring Pike back! Somehow! Anyhow! Because I LOVE BRUCE GREENWOOD. And his portrayal of Pike. They couldn’t have chosen better.

As for magic blood, however the writers choose to address it is what we have to deal with … hopefully they will give us an explanation that pleases most of us nit-pickers. My thinking at present is, Khan + his people are in a very secure lockdown facility, nobody so far knows about the magic blood except McCoy, his medical staff, Kirk, Spock, Uhura and some others. I’m thinking SFHQ will confiscate any samples and
Whoa, wait … that’s what they did with the TransWarp Beaming … ummm yeah … they are gonna really have to work that out.

548 dswynne1, If you read the novelization, ADFoster gives the “cold fusion” device a whole different name, in Pike’s words, “a meticulously crafted and custom-designed counterthermal Rankine wave device” … whatever TF that is … : ) but I agree, a different name would have been great, because “Cold Fusion device” ain’t it. Even a general audience member would say, oh, a counterthermal Rankine wave device, sure, whatever …

“Personally, and in-continuity explanation [It's possible I'm misinterpreting and you mean an "in-story narrative explanation"] would be that the Nerada’s incursion into the past sped up the development of science and technology to TNG levels. Or, close to it…”

Hmm, I kind of thought that from the beginning … I mean, say a warship or very advanced ship from 125 years in the future entered the Bering Sea, and the Russians discovered it, and found out how far advanced it was. Within hours our NSA/CIA would know a lot about that ship and trust me, both governments would set feverishly to work to figure out, and figure out how to beat, that technology. That’s what I’ve always assumed about the shiny new Enterprise [Firefly reference ; ) ]. As TOS Spock said, “Military secrets are the most fleeting of all.” Although in fairness, Narada was a mining vessel … with AMAZING powers!

550 MJ, I must confess, when I saw STIV, I was still active duty, and I was thinking in a military/safety way, “WTF is with these windows? Doesn’t Starfleet have more sense??” By STiD, I was thinking in a more writerly, fannish way, “Why does Abrams have glass windows in this scene? [BOOM! SHATTER! BLAM!] Oh … yeah. I see.”

552. P Technobabble - September 27, 2013

It really is nice to see the entire cast of characters in place at Trekmovie.

I think in many cases we simply do not have enough information to go on to explain every questionable instance. We might look at some instances as “plot holes,” but there might be X number of possible explanations. Sometimes, I imagine, the writers don’t want to get bogged down with every detail — and in the case of STID, it’s a pretty grand story, it’s not some intimate sort of “relationship” film where there is plenty of time to reveal every detail of a single-idea film.

I’m willing to bet that Bob Orci could address every single questionable instance with an explanation. After that, it would be up to the reader to either believe it or not.
TV murder mysteries (say, Columbo, or Murder She Wrote) sometimes could be the greatest culprits of “plot holes” — the detective comes up with information we never saw them discover on screen. It is presumed that the viewer will go along with the story enough so that this kind of thing doesn’t have too great an impact.
In Citizen Kane, as another example, it’s been noted that all the reporters are trying to figure out what “Rosebud” meant, yet Kane was alone when he died.

It’s possible that a writer might miss something we might question later, but could that happen more than once in a single story? I doubt that. The explanations are there. I just don’t think the writer is obligated to explain (on screen) every detail or answer. Sometimes letting an audience wonder is part of the story, hm?

553. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

@548. dswynne1- I will agree that there should be science advisers on hand to help with the technical details of the science and technology that is depicted in “Star Trek”.

I’ve been assuming it was JJ’s desire for insane levels of secrecy that prevented anyone from bouncing a script idea off a scientist or two.

Hopefully that can change now.

Because it’s *unnecessary* to alienate old fans by having Star Wars levels of science. Completely unnecessary. You guys can have both new fans and old. That does sound good, doesn’t it? More=better?

I know Trek fans who have never seen either movie. Give them something that feels more Trek and that’s more ticket sales, more love.

Anyway, the secrecy, in my opinion, really worked against STID when it devolved into making the cast *lie* about Khan. It angered people who liked the previous movie. It *wasn’t* fun to be lied to. It was infuriating.

(I actually think it’s funny that JJ thinks it was the video game that hurt the movie.)

Example: the use of the term “cold fusion” to describe what Spock’s “ice cube bomb” to freeze the volcano on Nibiru. I mean, come on. At least get the terminology right.

I remember skipping lunch in college to save up to buy Galaxy Magazine, which had an essay by Jerrry Pournelle in every issue (I was a skinny nerd), where for several issues he discussed the science of fusion and fission in easy to understand detail. The cold fusion device was such a head slap moment for me. Right in the start of the movie.

So if they could just fix the first 15 minutes of the next one, they’d have happier, more into the story fans. And the ones who don’t care – won’t care. Win/win.

I would also add that if the producers of next Star Trek film get rid of the “Star Wars-ification” of Star Trek (i.e. no explanation of how science and technology is depicted, and without explanation), a lot of seasoned fans of the franchise will be a lot happier.

I agree. I know I’d be happier. And I’d tell my all my nerd friends.

Why not consult Copernicus? I know Orci and Kurtzman have talked to him? He’d probably tell all of his nerd friends and fans too! More love!

Personally, an in-continuity explanation would be that the Nerada’s incursion into the past sped up the development of science and technology to TNG levels. Or, close to it…

Yes – you could even argue Khan instigated a lot of this, with Marcus’ help.

554. MJB - September 27, 2013

552. P Technobabble

I agree with you. I think if the powers that be at Paramount/Bad Robot would allow a 3 hour running time then most of the plot holes would be filled.
I personally would LOVE a 3 hour mega-Trek movie – with an old-fashioned ‘Intermission’.

555. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

@551. Marja
There is so much to love in this post that I applaud it overall.

Hey, hey, now – I didn’t say Kirk was a lousy captain!

In Curious Cadet’s defense, Kirk did seem to be having an off week, with the death of his mentor and all.

It’s really wonderful to read your impressions and analysis of the movie’s emotional success with you, someone familiar and fond of TWOK. Thank you. I’ve already now enjoyed the movie more, vicariously.

I get CC’s idea now about whether bringing back the hero was a cheat – it was. But both Jim and George did pass the test – and I like my heroes alive, so I will grant that I would have been glad Jim was back. For me it was the way they did it that took me out of the moment. Weird, huh?

If you read the novelization, ADFoster gives the “cold fusion” device a whole different name, in Pike’s words, “a meticulously crafted and custom-designed counterthermal Rankine wave device” …

I’m guessing by the previous novelization that the novel-writer is given the pre-filmed version of the script to work with. Which means when they went to film, either Quinto said, “Do I have to say this gobbedly gook?” Or Abrams said, wtf? No-one can say that! Call it cold fusion device instead!

Which makes me wonder if Orci isn’t in his office saying, “See? I told you cold fusion was stupid!” hahaha

556. MJB - September 27, 2013

Iron Man 3 Blu-ray Can’t Top Star Trek Into Darkness Ahead of Release

http://www.thehdroom.com/news/Iron-Man-3-Blu-ray-Cant-Top-Star-Trek-Into-Darkness-Ahead-of-Release/13152

“From almost the day it was first announced for Blu-ray 3D, Blu-ray and DVD, J.J. Abrams and Paramount’s Star Trek Into Darkness has dominated the Blu-ray bestsellers chart at online retailer Amazon.com. It so right up to the film’s release on September 10, and continues to do so well after it.”

This is where JJ, Bob, Alex and Damon ‘drops the mic’ and walks away to their next projects. Trek rules!
http://giphy.com/gifs/IOCXHPvn3WErm/

557. rogerachong - September 27, 2013

@550 Agreed MJ Lots of folks on this site are quite intelligent and yet they ask writers to spoon feed them like a child when a film is made. Every film or TV show for that matter will double its running time if every single little thing has to be shown on screen. In the Dark Knight we will have to see the Joker assemble all the explosives on the two boats. Sure if we saw that, how will you be surprised along with Batman when the dilemma occurs. How did the Joker even get the access and resources to setup all those elaborate crimes in such a short time, we will never know. Why? It is not important to the flow and needs of a visual film media. Go read a book, films are too fast and exciting for you.

Khan is a genius, as he once told Kirk, “Don’t insult my intelligence.”

The poster is trying to do just that.. So he thinks Khan is a fool, as such he is unable to use a refitted emergency vehicle to attack starfleet HQ. He did not cloak the vehicle. Duh and Double Duh!! He didn’t have to because we are one big happy fleet. The HQ walls were not plexi-glass but a special reinforced one like bullet-proof glass. Duh once again. Khan’s weapons on the emergency vehicle were special. “NOTE the green light look (Borg Tech?) and the sound of it. He tore up the place like it was just normal glass. BADAZZ! Never bring a knife to a gun fight! Khan 101.

Look at the scene again and you will see it was clearly an emergency vehicle. If that “took you out of the movie” the individual was already at the door in the first place.

Transwarp beaming: Khan never beamed from the emergency vehicle directly to Kronos. A blind person could see that his clothes are different when he beams on Kronos. No this was not a plothole or wardrobe malfunction. Read the novelization of the movie, he took several smaller and risky “hops” to get to Kronos. Yes, all the Naysayers on the web are blind as bats on this point.

I am already sick of these blatant untruths propagated on the web.
I do not know how boborci keeps his cool when so much untruths about this film are spoken as though they were facts when any casual unbiased observer could see the truth.

Kirk had a near death experience and refused to go into the light. Anyone saw a little film called “Jacob’s Ladder” So what. big deal. lots of people have those. He “got lucky” yeah, to be living in the future and had a good buddy (A-Class doctor extraordinaire) (BTW I would love to have a buddy like that) who tried everything to revive him by first cryo-freezing him quickly and then having the modern tools to extract a serum from Khan’s blood. All perfectly believable in Star Trek. Note how easily Bones cured old age in “The Deadly Years” and “Miri” as well. The same Bones saved a Horta, etc etc, Kirk always says, “Bones you are a miracle worker.” Then these same fans complain that Bones does not get enough screen time. “Facepalm” There you go, good scifi science and no plothole once again.

558. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

526. Marja – September 26, 2013

—Maybe a lot of decisions to elide things were done [startlingly] on a budget basis. What if they’d already blown their $ budget ..?—

Then, they had the wrong priorities going into the project. Apologizing away plot holes and lazy writing on the basis of budgetary limitations on a movie of around a $190 million budget is like a guy saying to his wife, “Sorry I couldn’t take you out for a nice anniversary dinner, dear, but I spent that money on this shiny limited-edition Star Trek collector’s item mural to hang on the wall of my office.”

In a word: priorities. Do you honestly feel that STID would have been less good with 5 more minutes of screen time devoted to story development, and 5 fewer minutes of expensive CGI and other special effects in action scenes? 5 minutes is an arbitrary number, but you get the point.

And as you suggested previously, there are some ultra quick fixes that could have been done at an expense of just a few seconds of screen time apiece. There’s the quick & cheap way they could have addressed the plot holes, and there’s the quality way. But at least the quick & cheap way would have filled in the holes. Ten seconds showing Khan hacking into the Star Fleet HQ security systems…Ten seconds showing him loading some kind of specialized bullets into his helicopter’s guns….

They could have shown Khan doing reconnaissance and making the preparations for his assault on Star Fleet HQ at the very beginning of the movie. We don’t know who this man is or what he’s doing. We just see Cumberbatch doing some computer stuff and weaponry preparation. Then, later in the movie, when Khan makes his attack on Star Fleet HQ, we recognize the building from the recon scene at the beginning of the movie. Now what Khan is doing has flowed through to us from the very beginning of the movie, and we don’t question how he’s pulling it off. And this is just off the top of my head as I type that I’m thinking of this. A thousand other, better ways could’ve been thought of…if the writers had thought it important.

—I’ve been wondering myself if these decisions were financially budget-related or time-budget-related, to allow more time for mass death and destruction.—

They’re both related to the priorities and goals of the filmmakers. JJ has said on many occasions that STID was not a movie for Trek fans (nor was ST’09), and it’s painfully obvious from watching the movie(s) that he’s telling the truth. I mean, I think if we’d had a highly intuitive fly on the wall in on the production meetings, the conversations would have been polite versions of, “Trekkies will watch and enjoy this movie just because it’s based on Star Trek, so we’ll have Orci throw them a few bones with allusions to past Trek, but we can’t make the movie for them.”

The decision to place more value on the production side of the movie than on the creative side seems to have been made very early on, or else they would simply have devoted more of their time and monetary resources to having a tighter, deeper, more developed and meaningful story. It’s been said a million times, but compare STID to TWOK in this regard. The latter had far less action and far more drama, and which is the more compelling and enjoyable movie?

The sad part is that I remember during the early days of production on ST’09, so many posters here were BEGGING Bob Orci to make a movie with more dramatic scenes and story development and less action, because they were tired of big dumb action movies. And, of course, Bad Robot went and did the exact opposite. This is why, frankly, I’ve shed my illusions of the third movie being any different. A formula has become quite evident from the first two movies. Fundamental decisions regarding the franchise have already been made, and a deviation therefrom at this point seems unlikely.

529. Marja – September 26, 2013

—I disagree with you on Spock, e.g. the Shuttle scene with C Marcus. [though some fans put that down to “jealousy” I’m sure he was puzzling out why Marcus was there, thinking ahead.—

I agree with you about the scene where Spock questions C. Marcus. I’d actually been referring to the scene where Spock has his lover’s quarrel with Uhura while their uncomfortable, tongue-tied commanding officer is stuck in the middle.

559. Vultan - September 27, 2013

Khan a genius? Two-dimensional thinking….

560. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

@557. rogerachong

Transwarp beaming: Khan never beamed from the emergency vehicle directly to Kronos. A blind person could see that his clothes are different when he beams on Kronos. No this was not a plothole or wardrobe malfunction. Read the novelization of the movie, he took several smaller and risky “hops” to get to Kronos. Yes, all the Naysayers on the web are blind as bats on this point.

He beamed from inside the emergency vehicle, where we barely saw his face amongst the swirly warp effect lines – I couldn’t see his clothes.

Even if I had, Scotty says something about the coordinates where he beamed to, and there’s every reason to believe those coordinates are the Klingon homeword: “He went the one place we can’t follow.” (I don’t have the movie to reference the exact line.)

I think it’s fine to buy the novel and comics as supplements if you like the story – I did, for 09. But you shouldn’t *have to* to understand the movie.

I’ve really been trying to stick to my own impersonations of the movie, not the complaints I’ve read on the web. (My posts would be a lot longer.)

My experience of the movie is as valid as yours.

561. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

@557. rogerachong,
“Transwarp beaming: Khan never beamed from the emergency vehicle directly to Kronos. A blind person could see that his clothes are different when he beams on Kronos. No this was not a plothole or wardrobe malfunction. Read the novelization of the movie, he took several smaller and risky “hops” to get to Kronos. Yes, all the Naysayers on the web are blind as bats on this point.”

No, the movie explicitly shows Kronos as the destination on the portable transwarp beaming device’s display screen, and Kirk informs Marcus of the same. The fact Khan is wearing different clothes makes this a plot hole. It doesn’t matter what the book says, the movie completely contradicts that. Using a portable device to beam from Earth to Kronos is not a plot hole, it’s just dumb.

562. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

@561. Curious Cadet

Using a portable device to beam from Earth to Kronos is not a plot hole, it’s just dumb.

Is this our new: Plot Hole OR Bad Science?

PS: apology for typo above: impressions not impersonations *^^*

563. Vultan - September 27, 2013

Did I imagine it, or did the Enterprise travel from Klingon space to Earth’s moon in a few seconds? Which, if true, begs the question: how very close is the Empire to our solar system or… how blazing fast is this new Enterprise… and the big bad Vengeance?

Just curious. Thoughts anyone…?

564. Phil - September 27, 2013

@563. The Empire is on Mars. Problem solved.

565. Vultan - September 27, 2013

Ah, thanks. That clears it up.

566. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

@558. Cygnus-X1,
“Ten seconds showing Khan hacking into the Star Fleet HQ security systems…Ten seconds showing him loading some kind of specialized bullets into his helicopter’s guns….”

With all due respect you need to let this one go. While I commiserate that there’s a lot left to audience interpretation, I gurantee you that the majority of the money STID earned came from people who did not think twice about that scene.

It’s movie magic. It’s the same thing that allows the heroes car to jump a river, land, roll, and keep driving at 100MPH, with barely a scratch on the vehicle. You’ll notice the glass didn’t fracture like tempered glass either, which at a minimum would be in even skyscrapers today. It was good old fashioned breakaway glass like the cowboys used to fly through in saloons. It looks great on screen and little has changed since those days.

Everything you suggest would have only added needless detail to the movie. There are much bigger problems with that scene than how the glass breaks so easily. I understand we all have our pet peeves, we also need to pick and choose out battles. Most action movies have some degree of this kind of unrealistic effects specifically for the spectacle. At some point we have to accept that it’s artistic license to make the scene more exciting than it really would be. It’s the same reason we have noise in space, and that’s a scifi convention we’ve accepted for decades, even though we all know better.

By all means criticize the things that you think are wrong, but try to focus on what is meaningful to telling the story better, rather than entrenched Hollywood conventions to which audiences are long since accustomed.

567. rogerachong - September 27, 2013

@559 He is still written as a genius and TWOK is still not 100% perfect IMHO. He stole an emergency vehicle and refitted it with advanced weapons. He wore the same all black starfleet issued clothes seen on Kirk’s computer when he examined the crime scene with John Harrison pictured entering a vehicle with a mysterious bag in tow.

For those who have the Blue Ray/DVD you can check this scene if you believe I am inaccurate. John Harrison beams from the emergency vehicle in the same starfleet black undershirt. Now look again at even the trailer and you will see him beam on Kronos with a black trench coat. the same coat he wears when he attacks the Klingons. Proof that boborci is right he did not beam directly to Kronos from Earth.

Scotty is also a genius (not my words) and was able to find his final jump point after investigations on the device. He NEVER said or intoned that he got there in a single step in the film. Some critical critics and deluded fans only ASS-UMED that. And we all know what that makes someone.

Like Spock I used FACTS from the film, up on the big IMAX 3D screen for all to see, in order to prove this SIMPLE point. It is not JJ Abrams or boborci’s fault if some fans cannot process a visual image fast enough to arrive at logical conclusions that I saw in an instant at the movie theater. Maybe we may not all be geniuses after all.

568. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

@567. rogerachong

He wore the same all black starfleet issued clothes seen on Kirk’s computer when he examined the crime scene with John Harrison pictured entering a vehicle with a mysterious bag in tow.

For those who have the Blue Ray/DVD you can check this scene if you believe I am inaccurate. John Harrison beams from the emergency vehicle in the same starfleet black undershirt. Now look again at even the trailer and you will see him beam on Kronos with a black trench coat. the same coat he wears when he attacks the Klingons. Proof that boborci is right he did not beam directly to Kronos from Earth.

Maybe his trench was in the bag.

You can’t bring in the trailer and interviews as proof – only the movie, what’s on screen, is canon. This is your interpretation and very possibly the artist’s intent, but art is subjective. The impression left is that he transwarped to Quonos.

(Now I am nitpicking.)

569. Vultan - September 27, 2013

#567

Khan is written as an arrogant “superman” with superior strength and endurance (though he’s taken down with a plastic control rod thingy) and superior intelligence (though he can’t figure out spaceships maneuver differently than a Chrysler Cordoba).

He’s a riddle wrapped in an enigma played by two great actors of different races.

570. TUP - September 27, 2013

I actually think some fans nitpick too much. Somethings are not plot holes because we can accept a conversaion happened off-screen to explain it…or for dramatic reasons. For example, it doesnt really bother me that Vulcan and Chronos are so close to Earth. I dont want to watch three hours of space flight (like in Lord of the Rings, watching the stupid trees lumber to the fight for what seemed like an eternity).

BUT…the plot holes that seem like lazy writing are what bother me.

- Cold-fusion device. This is not an issue. Besides the fact the term could be “slang” how do we know this particular device wont be referred to in that manner hundreds of years from now?

- Kirk going into the chamber. Way too much over-analyzing going on. Kirk went in because he’s a damn hero and thats what damn heroes do. In STIV, he didnt hesitate to order an evacuation of the ship and he alone went down into engineering to release the whales. He even ordered Scotty away then too. If he couldn’t release the bay doors, he would have died.

- Khan. Look, I wanted them to use Khan but in retrospect it was a bad idea. And because they tried to make the character work without it being Khan. Thats why it didnt work. It didnt need to be Khan. And thus, they felt okay about making him a pasty-faced Brit. They under-estimated the Trek audience and they over-estimated BC’s ability to make us forget Montalban.

They likely said “look, Jack Nicholson’s Joker was iconic but Heath Ledger made us all forget”. The problem is, Batman isn’t Star Trek in the sense there is a specific “canon”. But forgetting that, these writers CHOSE to operate in the EXACT same universe where Khan is an hispanic Middle Eastern. It’s the SAME character as RM played in Space Seed. Every other bit of casting was influenced by how the actors resembled the originals to varying degrees. Pine looks like a young Shatner. Quinto looks like a young Nimoy. Uhura is black. Sulu is Asian. Heck, Chekov is actually played by a Russian. So to now say “enthicity of the actor doesnt matter” is WRONG.

Unless I am mistaken, these writers have said their intention was for Harrison to be the Khan we all know, the same character from Space Seed. I’d actually be annoyed if they tried to change that now. And I’d love to know if they considered making him Joachin because it was so OBVIOUS to me to be a better choice.

They should have played it similar to how they did, having Harrison claim to be Khan. They should have had Spock PRIME be the one that reveals the deception (remember, TOS established records from Khan’s time were “fractured” so its reasonable to accept that Marcus would not realise that Harrison was NOT Khan (he may not have even realised the ship he found contained Khan).

Spock using Spock Prime’s revelation to gain a pysch advantage would make Prime’s appearance more meanignful. And the camera pan over the cryo tubes at the end would be way cooler when it lingered over the familar face of Ricardo Montalban, letting us know the REAL KHAN was still there. This would have allowed them to have their secret identity, “shocking reveal” and undo it all in a more organic, reasonable way (it would have allowed the marketing department to actually market KHAN since the secret isnt that Harrison is Khan, its that he isn’t).

But I’m not a professional writer (unless boborci wishes to recruit me, please).

- Kirk’s arc. The writers made a mistake in ending 09 with Kirk’s promotion to Captain. I “get” why they wanted to. With no promise of a sequel they ended the movie with the crew together and Kirk in the Captain’s chair. The in-universe reason was the fleet had been decimated and they needed good captains (but if true, they would have given Spock his own ship also).

I would have much preferred the crew “going their separate ways” at the end of 09. The “promotion” scene should have been Kirk’s award for “original thinking”. He should have been assigned to the Farragut. Spock should have stayed on the Enterprise as Pike’s first officer (or science officer allowing for the introduction of the female “number one”).

As viewers, we would know what the future held and it would make a heck of a lot more sense. STID could then open with the Farragut and Kirk assuming command in much the same way his father did. Not only a direct parallel to Geoge Kirk but one fitting close to canon. It would be a real life Kobyiashi Maru test and force Kirk to confront the circumstances of his fathers death AND provide Kirk with more ego in the sense he beat the no-win scenario (which should have been a theme in STID). Pike lecturing Kirk would have had more depth in this concept with Pike commending Kirk but also warning him about mortality. Kirk responding “I dont believe in the no-win scenario” to foreshadow the end of STID.

And before you all go off on canon, these writers put forth the ideas that the universe would try to “heal” itself so seeing examples of that would actually be satisfying.

Then you get Pike taking Kirk with him on the Enterprise. Pike being the one that goes into the chamber at the end, mirroring his accident in the Prime universe and giving Kirk his final lesson in leadership and sacrifice. You end the movie with Kirk getting the Enterprise and wondering if he can live up to Pike’s example.

I liked STID. I hate to nit pick but I think my suggestions make it infinitely better. (sorry Bob!)

571. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

@567. rogerachong

And I’ve thought of another example to prove my point, from ’09.

In a deleted scene, we see Jim and his older brother George in conflict with his uncle. In revenge, Jim steals his uncle’s car and passes his runaway brother (what a dick move) as he races towards destiny.

In the movie, Jim passes some random homeless kid (what a dick move) in a car he stole for no apparent reason. This is canon. In canon, there is no George Kirk, Jr. There is some poor runaway kid (who is named, but who’s name I have forgotten.)

572. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

@562. TrekkieJan,
“Is this our new: Plot Hole OR Bad Science?”

Haha. It’s a McGuffin. I can’t fault a mcguffin because every movie tends to have them. And it’s hard to say it’s bad science, since we don’t really know how it would work.

What makes it a bad Mcguffin for me is that it introduces yet one more super powerful concept with transporters they will have to find a way to negate in the future. Again, how did they confiscate a formula that Scotty created, lobotomize him? I rolled my eyes in TNG as the transporter started solving all kinds of life or death problems the writers wrote themselves into. At least with red matter the writers could say it was all destroyed when the frustrated fans started howling about resetting the timeline. They should have left it alone, left it as Prime Spock erased it and it took Scotty decades to figure it out on his own again.

And I know why they did it — Abrams continual attempts to abbreviate the exposition and get to the action sequences as fast as possible. Obviously K&O wrote a well thought out way to reasonably get Khan to Kronos as appears in the novelization. Abrams wanted it simplified, and someone (probably Lindelof) said, “hey what about the way Scotty & Kirk got onto the Enterprise”. I still don’t know what’s wrong with a brief explanation from Kirk that “Khan performed a series of pre-planned, long-range transporter hops, which we traced to Kronos”, but I have to admit; for the popcorn munching unwashed masses, it’s a lot simpler to just say he went from point a to point b. I mean they don’t show us how Jason Bourne gets from Istanbul to Washington DC, we just see him there in the next scene.

573. TUP - September 27, 2013

I wrote a long well thought out post and now it’s gone :-(

574. TUP - September 27, 2013

and now its back :-)

575. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

@571. Curious Cadet
Obviously K&O wrote a well thought out way to reasonably get Khan to Kronos as appears in the novelization. Abrams wanted it simplified, and someone (probably Lindelof) said, “hey what about the way Scotty & Kirk got onto the Enterprise”

This seems likely.

I still don’t know what’s wrong with a brief explanation from Kirk that “Khan performed a series of pre-planned, long-range transporter hops, which we traced to Kronos”,

Agreed.

but I have to admit; for the popcorn munching unwashed masses, it’s a lot simpler to just say he went from point a to point b.

We can actually hope O&K get more say as to what stays in the script from now on. Looking at the movies this way, we can see where the changes have hurt the logic of the movie for those who do care.

576. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

@551. Marja,
“Hey, hey, now – I didn’t say Kirk was a lousy captain!”

Haha, no I said that, you just gave me the inspiration to go there, and TrekkieJan helped me connect the dots. Truth is, in that moment, Kirk felt he had failed everyone, and said as much on the bridge. I have to think all of his survivors guilt, childhood angst, insecurities, and failures as captain, measure against his father, and dissapointment to his mentor all had to come rushing into his decision to sacrifice himself as it is presented.

——————-
“As I remember him, Kirk in TOS was heroic in this way.”
Yes absolutely, but action hero Kirk had to hit Scotty to get him out of the way — so much for having a conscious chief engineer (and resident “miracle worker”) the ship desperately needed at that very moment. Prime Kirk ordered Scotty to get on the pad in Mirror Mirror, and took no more time. Does Kirk think he does not command enough respect to simply order Scotty to stand down, so much so he needs to disable the one person the ship truly needs at that moment? Is this Kirk forever going to punch his way out of every situation, or will he someday ‘learn to use his words’?

——————–
“The fact that the audience sees him come back within 10 minutes has no impact in the moments leading up to Kirk’s death. … After a time I perceived the handy emotional manipulation between the action set-pieces [explained quite well by Crit Hulk] which did kinda hurt my feelings.”

And this is all I’m alluding to. The manipulation by the filmmakers. Kirk’s demoted to cadet, he’s reinstated as Pike’s first officer, then promoted to captain within 10 minutes. Emotional rollercoaster-ride. Using a real life hospital deathbed scenario (which this is NOT), it’s akin to the doctor telling the family they only have a few moments. Then after the screen goes flatline, the doctor taps the side of the equipment, and goes, whoops, sorry folks I misread the equipment, your husband is fine and will live a long healthy life. Yes the family would be relieved and overjoyed, but they would also be quite upset the idiot doctor put them through that unnecessarily. I know because I’ve been through something like that with a misdiagnosis. People sue over such malpractice and ‘emotional distress’ in real life. Your mileage may vary.

———————-
“I, too, would be overjoyed if they could bring Pike back! Somehow! Anyhow! Because I LOVE BRUCE GREENWOOD. And his portrayal of Pike. They couldn’t have chosen better.”

There is NOTHING that prevents bringing Pike back in some respect. I don’t know where this idea comes from. I’ve never seen anything to substantiate it.

577. TUP - September 27, 2013

Whats with this place? Post added, then disappeared. Then re-appeared. Now gone again. What the heck?

578. P Technobabble - September 27, 2013

558. Cygnus
You mean to tell me an anniversary dinner comes before a Star Trek collector’s item? Really…

579. MJB - September 27, 2013

576 TUP
I think Matt has said in the past that as these comment threads grow it puts more of a strain on the servers….something like that. So I assume that strain results in some comments coming and going but no deleted.

580. P Technobabble - September 27, 2013

554. MJB
In theory I agree with the idea of a longer movie, but that may be a good indication why Trek should have some kind of miniseries format…

581. Ahmed - September 27, 2013

@ 576. TUP – September 27, 2013

“Whats with this place? Post added, then disappeared. Then re-appeared. Now gone again. What the heck?”

As MJB said, the servers can’t keep up with all the new comments, that why comments disappear & reappear again. It happens more frequently these days.

Or perhaps there is a ghost in the system :)

582. MJB - September 27, 2013

581. Ahmed
“Or perhaps there is a ghost in the system :)”

Perhaps the NSA? ;)

583. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

566. Curious Cadet – September 27, 2013

—I guarantee you that the majority of the money STID earned came from people who did not think twice about that scene.—

Khan’s attack on Star Fleet HQ is just one example for Plot Hole -or- Bad Science. I’m not hung up on it particularly, but it did pull me out of the movie.
I disagree that general audiences didn’t think twice about it. It’s very often that I’ve heard reasonably intelligent people who aren’t Trekkies basically express their resignation to laziness in the making action/comic book films generally.

They go in with lowered expectations, resigned not to think about anything in the movie that might seem ridiculous, because they just want to enjoy their 2 hour escape from the world. But if you do offer them better quality, it becomes quickly evident how much they appreciate it. Even if they don’t cite specific examples of it, you can tell that their overall impression is appreciative. People generally appreciate good quality in a product. Some people don’t, but enough people do. Attention to detail in the writing makes the movie more compelling and effective on the whole. Fans of sci-fi (which Star Trek used to be) are especially appreciative of filmmakers trying to make a sci-fi movie scientifically consistent. At any rate, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

561. Curious Cadet

—Using a portable device to beam from Earth to Kronos is not a plot hole, it’s just dumb.

Here were are in agreement. I’ve been watching the entire Voyager series on Netflix and there’s an episode…I wanna say Season 3…somewhere around the early-middle part of the series…where someone uses a site-to-site transporter. I’m not sure if this was the first time such a device was ever used in Trek…I think that it may have been…if not, it was certainly among the very few times that it has been. And it’s a TERRIBLE contrivance. Transporter technology, if you stop to think about it in physical terms for a minute, is already extremely fraught with implausibility…

However, transporters were invented out of necessity, not out of laziness. Gene Roddenberry needed a production-viable way to get his characters down to the planet from the Enterprise, and landing a ship on the budget of his show was not feasible. Simply put, he needed transporters as an integral part of the premise of his show.

Contrast the necessity that gave birth to transporters in TOS with unnecessary, fantastical contrivances like Red Matter, site-to-site transporters, and Death-Curing Magic Blood, which serve to weaken the believability of the Trek world. Maybe, as Trekkie Jan said, we should have a closer look at each of these in…

PLOT HOLE -or- BAD SCIENCE.

584. Dave H - September 27, 2013

@MJ @Cygnus X-1

“It is so completely obvious that Khan had the highest level of access to star-fleet security, that no explanation is necessary. If you feel you need the writers to “walk you through” something as obvious as Khan getting around security protocols, well, I think that is kind of weak minded, my friend.”

MJ, first, welcome back!!!

Not only do I agree with you on this, MJ, but it didn’t even occur to me that Khan could have not done what he did without gaming the Starfleet security system. DUH !!

So why would they possibly want to include boring filler scenes of Khan programming in his Starfleet security workarounds — of course he was doing that? And including those scenes would have reduced the dramatic impact of the attack.

This is nitpicking on STID at its worst.

585. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

@570. TUP,
“Kirk went in because he’s a damn hero and thats what damn heroes do. In STIV, he didnt hesitate to order an evacuation of the ship and he alone went down into engineering to release the whales. He even ordered Scotty away then too. If he couldn’t release the bay doors, he would have died.”

Yes Kirk is a cowboy. He makes stupid command decisions that could just as easily go the other way as your TVH example point out. Perhaps that is in part why we love him. Alt Kirk is a more complicated figure. He was born a victim, lived his life that way and continues to suffer as one. Prime Kirk was a victim too, surviving Kodos’ murder of thousands of colonists. Despite such a traumatic event, Prime Kirk did not become a drunken, multiple offender, rebel without a cause, who sat around feeling sorry for himself at the local watering hole, picking fights to entertain himself. K&O are asking us to view Kirk as a much more layered character, and therefore that’s what I’m doing. To that end, why did this Kirk feel he had to incapacitate Scotty (perhaps the single most important crewmember on the ship at that moment)? Prime Kirk never did that in TOS that I recall — he always ordered or insisted and that was good enough, and part of his heroic bravery. The simple answer is he did it because Spock did it to McCoy in TWOK (but that’s a whole different discussion fraught with problems), and the producers were copying that scene beat for beat. But the alt universe explanation has to be more complicated, and though it could be as simple as Kirk is still an immature punk who is insecure in his leadership abilities, I would prefer to dig a little deeper. The scene would have been much more effective if Kirk HAD ‘used his words’, rather than continue to punch his way out of all his problems.

Kirk: “Scotty, the ship needs you more than it needs me right now, I’m the only one of us here who can do this”
Scotty: “Jim!”
Kirk: “That’s an order, Scotty”
Scotty: “Aye. But you’ll need this”

That’s the Kirk (and Scotty) I know.

It’s not a plot hole as is, but it is a bit contrived.

586. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

572. Curious Cadet – September 27, 2013

—@562. TrekkieJan,
“Is this our new: Plot Hole OR Bad Science?”

Haha. It’s a McGuffin.—

It’s actually a deus ex machina.

The 72 virgins—err, I mean Augments—were more like a MacGuffin in that they were the premise underlying the motivation of Khan, the negotiating device of Admiral Marcus, and the objects around which the action revolves in the movie’s climax (disregarding the Spock/Khan chase which comes later). We never actually see the 72 Augments, and after seeking them over the course of the entire movie, Khan never actually gets them in the end, but they drove the whole story. Textbook MacGuffin, right there.

587. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

578. P Technobabble – September 27, 2013

Only if you want a reasonable shot at happiness.

And sex with your wife ever again. ;-)

588. TUP - September 27, 2013

@curiouscadet – sorry man, I have to disagree. Your preference notwithstanding, the scene didnt need anything else. Kirk is a hero. Period. Him vocalizing why he wanted to go into the chamber alone was not required because we know he’s a hero. And in that moment that he aknowledges he is going in (I dont recall the words), we see the realization in him of what level of sacrifice comes with the big chair.

To be honest, I dont like the portrayal of Kirk as damaged. I think its a bit too lame (Kirk’s dad dies and he’s raised by a prick step dad so he’s a drunken bafoon hanging out in Starfleet bars and living within the shadow of the Enterprise? Come on…).

589. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

584. Dave H – September 27, 2013

—This is nitpicking on STID at its worst.—

Well, hey…if the outcomes of the events of the story are already implicit in the attributes of the characters, then why bother with the whole movie? Just to give us some flashing lights? Why not save the $190 million and just pitch us the premise of the story, and like world-champion chess players, we’ll deduce from the movie premise how the story would unfold if it were actually told.

Imagine Bad Robot’s version of TWOK. No need to show us exactly how Khan manages to steal the Genesis device—putting those creatures into the ears of Chekov and the other Star Fleet officer, controlling their actions so that they turn on their own crew and do Khan’s bidding instead—hey, don’t bother with any of that. It’s all implicit in Khan being a super-villain. Just show Khan with the Genesis device, and we’ll all get that he used his super abilities to acquire it. Yeah, I can’t wait to see THAT movie….

590. K-7 - September 27, 2013

“Kirk’s dad dies and he’s raised by a prick step dad so he’s a drunken bafoon hanging out in Starfleet bars and living within the shadow of the Enterprise? Come on…).”

You’ll find hundreds of guys like this across the U.S. in major metro area police forces and fire forces. A lot of dysfunctional familyes where the dad policeman or fireman dies or leaves, and then the “bad boy” eventually follows his father into a police or fireman role — usually brought in by familie relationships (e.g. a “Pike-like” uncle also in the force). This happens all the time.

591. K-7 - September 27, 2013

“The 72 virgins”

When you take cheap shots like this, your pretend facade of being an “honest player” in you game fades away here. We can see “your agenda” here.

At least you could attempt to do a better job pretending to have an open mind about STID.

592. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

@588. TUP,
“Your preference notwithstanding, the scene didnt need anything else.”

Fair enough, then how about REMOVING the part where Kirk incapacitates Scotty?

Sorry, but the captain that does that, is not a hero at that moment, and it taints what he does. Is that really the message we want to send to kids? Punch your way out of all of life’s obstacles and become a hero? When the building is burning, and the firemen are pulling you away from a hopeless situation, you should incapacitate the firemen and run in anyway?

We often hail the rebellious, risk-taking daredevil as a hero for risking or sacrificing his life, especially when it turns out well — the guy who runs back into a burning building and comes out with the little girl, but all too often in real life they go in and never come out. In this case the reality is, Kirk had no idea whether he could fix the Enterprise by himself. Scotty did know what it was going to take. What if Kirk incapacitated Scotty, got in there and found he needed help, died without re-aligning the thing (which he barely did in the knick of time anyway) and the Enterprise crashed into the Earth? Was he still a hero? He knocked out the one guy who could have helped-him save the ship so he would live, only to have him die in the crash. Just like in TVH, he made sure his crew was safe, but if he hadn’t gotten the hatch open, he would have died along with the whales, and the crew he momentarily save would have died with everyone on Earth. Although, the difference there is that Kirk didn’t incapacitate anyone to do it. Had Kirk inhaled a lung full of water, no doubt the rest of the crew would have gone in after him at a certain point, because they are all heroes too.

We accept these heroics in our entertainment, but should we?

593. TUP - September 27, 2013

Ofcourse. Because it’s a movie and the writers are under no obligation to be teaching life lessons to children.

594. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

@591. TUP,
Cool.

Then punching out Scotty fits right in with the portrayal of Kirk as damaged, and thus must be a consideration of his underlying motivation in that scene, which is all I have done. It’s also a poetic full-circle event that calls back how we first met adult Kirk, in a barroom brawl, after which Pike dares him to do better than saving the 800 lives his father did — and he does.

595. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

589. K-7 – September 27, 2013

— “The 72 virgins”

When you take cheap shots like this, your pretend facade of being an “honest player” in you game fades away here. We can see “your agenda” here.

At least you could attempt to do a better job pretending to have an open mind about STID.—

Dude, I was totally just being silly. That little comment had absolutely no intended meaning.

Out of curiosity, what “agenda” do you think that little joke implies? Something Islamist…or anti-Islamist?

596. TUP - September 27, 2013

I have no issue with Kirk punching out Scotty in that scene.

Scotty in this universe is a lot weaker than in the Prime where he was more of a brawler and a very strong leader. Some of my favourite TOS episodes were Scotty in command episodes. I miss that.

I disliked the scene where Scott murdered a man for a couple of reasons. He cracked jokes when the Scott Prime would have stood up and fought. I realise Scotty was at a disadvantage but I would have preferred the security guy be demanding answers, Scotty refuse and the guy assault Scotty.

I know some people dont like the violence but I think it can be very effective. Scotty taking strike after strike, refusing to talk and then sucking the guy out the airlock would have been more effective in my opinion.

Small things like that could make the film a lot better.

In many ways, I find STID more of a parody of TOS than ST09 was (Bones especially). For example, in TOS, Kirk was a ladies man. In SITD, he’s a raving slut. He lacks the charm of William Shatner’s portrayal and the subtle touches (yes, Shatner could be subtle). Shatner’s Kirk had insecurities but they were far more subtle.

In TOS, we believed that Kirk was less a man whore and more over-compensating for his choice to always put Starfleet first. He didnt use women, he fell in love with every woman because he was chasing the idea that he could be a family man AND a Starship Captain and he would learn every time that it was not so.

Spock said to Kirk in WoK that being a Starship Captain was Jim’s first & best destiny. And the trilogy arc of II-IV bore that out. I want to see more of that destiny.

With Pike dead, hopefully Bones becomes Kirk’s moral compass like he’s supposed to be.

597. cw - September 27, 2013

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. These long drawn out ‘what shouldabeen’ monologs are getting pretty damn boring. The movie was awesome. Kirk was portrayed just as he should have been within the new parameters of his existence since Nero. nu Kirk didn’t need McCoy the same way TOS kirk did so he doesnt rely on him the same way. Plus, he’s way younger than the TOS kirk and acts his age. Nobody would like him any other way. I don’t know why eveyone that bitches about Nu Trek doesn’t totally get off on the New Voyages and Continues stuff. Sure, its done with a tinyass budget but for cornsake, its the same stuff as back in the day.

598. Ahmed - September 27, 2013

A bizarre Japanese ad

===========================
WTF? This Japanese company sells their lube with the Enterprise in this weird ad

http://www.blastr.com/2013-9-27/wtf-japanese-company-sells-their-lube-enterprise-weird-ad

599. Danpaine - September 27, 2013

596. TUP – September 27, 2013

Nice post. You summed up my feelings pretty well, there.

600. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 27, 2013

Okay. So it seems like with no answers on how they see Uhura’s character, and none of the comments about the podcast reflecting that being addressed either, that it looks like she’ll catch yet another raw deal. Same goes for Spock to a lessor extent.

It doesn’t seem like the PTSD and their issues surrounding it are going to be addressed and worked out at all. Perhaps that’s what the comics are for because I was told I needed to read them “to understand” STID back in May… I guess I know what I need to know about the next film then. I still wish them the best.

601. K-7 - September 27, 2013

Cygnus,

You have come up with a supposedly objective “game,” which you claim is to help us honestly assess plot elements of STID, but which has been proven by all of your posts to simply be a clever vehicle by which you can cut-and-paste of your tired old arguments against STID in a new format.

I mean, come on, your game has two outputs (plot hole or bad science) — and each output is a negative on STID. And honest game would allow the players to have a positive response as well. So you force the players to be critical of STID by the way you structure the game.

That is what I think your agenda is.

602. Keachick - September 27, 2013

“I’ve been assuming it was JJ’s desire for insane levels of secrecy that prevented anyone from bouncing a script idea off a scientist or two.”

Yes, that is an assumption and not borne out by what we do know happened with regard to the making of the first Star Trek movie. JJ Abrams and others were communicating via the internet with quite a number of Star Trek fans and various people working in the science fields. Many of those people wore both hats. It is reasonable to assume that similar occurred this time round.

Actually, it could be that one or two of these well-versed scientists may have pitched an idea, based on what they do know is possible or could be possible within real-world science, to the writers, JJ that was, well, just too extraordinary, even scarier than one could imagine, that the Supreme Court felt they could not use, because most of us would see it as one gigantic plot hole… There is truth to the saying that “Truth can be stranger than fiction”.

TOS Kirk was a ladies man but this Kirk is a raving slut? I guess it all depends how you define “ladies man” and “raving slut”. Without actually putting on both DVD’s and noting what the clock counter tells me, I am guessing that in all we have been treated to no more than five minutes total (out of 4 hours) of Kirk being this “raving slut”. However we did hear him say “Hello, ladies!” on one or two occasions in both movies.

If you choose to think that a person could be a “raving slut” by using a maximum of five minutes of film footage which shows and tells very little about the background and motivations of the person in question, is conclusive evidence for denigrating a character in this way, then you and others like you are fritzing out. The only thing I can kind of determine here is that your own minds could do with a lot of clearing away of what could only be described as slutty smut.

Calling someone a slut is easy, even lazy. It is denigrating and sets up an obstacle to being able to objectively seek knowledge and understanding.

Nobody is apologizing for anything. If you, Cygnus, think that people who like and are able to explain aspects of this movie, most of which made sense to them from the get-go, are apologizing, then the mistake is yours, all yours!

603. Keachick - September 27, 2013

Actually, it would be more correct to write, “…background and motivations of the PEOPLE in question…”. Kirk was not participating alone (they call that masturbation). Moreover, the willingness of each of the participants, in both cases, seemed to be very mutual.

Nobody was being a “slut”. Go wash your mouth out!

604. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

@596. TUP,
“in TOS, Kirk was a ladies man. In SITD, he’s a raving slut.”

Hmmm. I don’t know about a “raving slut” but Abrams interprets and characterizes Kirk as a “womanizer”, and in following that viewpoint, directs him to stare at a women in an inappropriate circumstance, while disrespecting her request not to. “[Come on] It’s KIRK” to quote the director Abrams, “who was ALWAYS this sort of womanizer”. That is the intent of the character as directed, so this Kirk is most assuredly a womanizer, whatever else he may be. Of that there can be no denial.

605. bardicjim - September 27, 2013

I would like to take this opportunity to summarise most of the posts here.

Ner ner ner ner!

Ner ner ner ner!!!

NER NER NER NER!!!!

NER NER NER NER NER NER!!!!

I thank you. Goodnight.

606. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

@583 Cygnus-X1

PLOT HOLE -or- BAD SCIENCE.

I’ll take a shot.

Red Matter: Bad science. Absolutely. The movie got the whole black hole, exploding sun thing crazy wrong. Very Star Wars with its Gigantic Stakes, Gigantic Losses. A beloved planet and a beloved character (or two) and a beloved people – destroyed.

So Spock could have a breakdown.

Necessary? I don’t believe so. A smaller threat could have been just as frightening, just as devastating personally for Spock. The size of the whole thing really hurt my ability to believe and makes this a hard rewatch for me – when its best moments are the small ones – Pike reaching out to Kirk, Kirk reaching out to trust and make a friend in McCoy, learning to be a gentleman, to trust himself.

But audiences are used to big in their summer movies. And I was moved at first myself. There’s no take backs. Good things may yet come of this grand restart. I am hopeful for better things.

Site to Site transporters – as good as Star Trek science gets. Not a plot hole if, as stated, this was conceived as a slower, more intricate way to escape and Scotty was smart enough to figure out the last stop. OTOH, the Portable Transwarp one stop 10 light year hop, from the stolen equation… is just silly. Necessary? As anything else in the plot.

Death Curing Magic Blood – … I gotta give that they worked hard for the set up. Probably too hard. And it did get us more Bones scenes. And leave it there.

607. Phil - September 27, 2013

@598. Oh, dear god, that’s funny. Kirk settling into his freshly lubricated chair…

This one was pretty creepy, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id6nuKFO8PQ

608. Phil - September 27, 2013

I know it’s my bad for not listening to the entire recording, but does Bob offer up any hint as to which decade this script is supposed to be finished?

609. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

So it looks like war breaks out between the Klingons and Romulans in Issue #25 of the IDW Ongoing series, and continues over four issues. I think that MUST mean if it’s happening this far out, we might get lucky and have no Klingon war in the next movie.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1309/24/idwfirsts.htm

This also means issue #1 of Star Trek: Khan will be hitting the streets as early as next week. We will all finally find out if Khan underwent an appearance change.

610. Phil - September 27, 2013

Unfortunately, the TV product tie in spots don’t get better with age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkRc9z4zIpM

611. Marja - September 27, 2013

555 Trekkie Jan, “I’m guessing by the previous novelization that the novel-writer is given the pre-filmed version of the script to work with. Which means when they went to film, either Quinto said, “Do I have to say this gobbedly gook?” Or Abrams said, wtf? No-one can say that! Call it cold fusion device instead!”

Quinto did not say the line, Greenwood did. Both men are quite capable of uttering such a line [Quinto played Louis Ironson in “Angels in America” in 2010, and believe me, that character has miles of dialogue to wrap his tongue around, and Greenwood played JFK in “Thirteen Days”]. But as far as the pre-filmed version of the script, yes, I think Foster went from that [Although judging from ADF’s stilted dialogue I’m not so sure]. In ST2009’s novelization he had to go from either an early draft or cribbing notes at an early cut of the film, so there were a great many differences in dialogue. Interesting to me is the fact that there were a few goofs in dialogue, which it seems to me could have been correctly done on a different “take” – but my understanding is, Abrams is a very visual director, and if the feeling – which he’s also very much in touch – with is right in a scene, he might be fine with a minor boo-boo.

It doesn’t surprise me at all that Kirk’s quick recovery from being irradiated would take you out of the movie : ) From your entries here I see you’re an editor and a longtime SF fan. Curious Cadet is analytical in the same way. I’m just not in that place when I’m in the theatre. I take a fair amount of time to “process” emotion and writing. Funny, when I see it on the page, as a non-pro editor myself, I more readily spot faults.

557 rogerachong, In all fairness, I think I was the first one to bring up ‘Khan cloaking his vehicle,’ just to get past SFHQ defenses. You say they “are all one happy fleet” but if SF surveillance or defenses saw a small vehicle [SF or not] headed right for the conference room, don’t you think an alert would have sounded? I do. Khan must have known the codes or something. Five seconds of Khan pressing buttons and disarming the defenses [a la the KM test in ST09 or Kirk disarming Khan’s shields in TWOK] could have explained that – surely even casual Trek viewers were wondering how he got so close. As you say the Joker in Batman is prob a good parallel. I believe Paramount wanted a ‘flavor’ similar to The Dark Knight Rises.

558 Cygnus, “In a word: priorities. Do you honestly feel that STID would have been less good with 5 more minutes of screen time devoted to story development, and 5 fewer minutes of expensive CGI and other special effects in action scenes? 5 minutes is an arbitrary number, but you get the point.”

I have said repeatedly that STiD would have been considerably better with 10 minutes’ extra time. Jim, Spock and Bones arguing, for example, and Khan lowering the defenses of SFHQ at the last minute, and YES, I would LOVE to have seen less destruction and cruelty, thank you very much.

Sorry, Kirk was uncomfortable with S/U’s conversation – at the beginning – but he briefly joined in
the discussion and did not issue an order, he said “do you have to do this now?” like a friend or brother. Pike might have said, “Commander, Lieutenant, save this for later, that’s an order.” A modern-day captain would’ve said “Belay that” or “As you were!” … Kirk did not issue an order. Later in S/U’s discussion, he is listening and clearly reflecting on their words.

612. Marja - September 27, 2013

563 and 564, Vultan and Phil, I think the VERY short times of transit in both movies is simple elision, which bugs me too. Eight seconds to Vulcan! Five minutes to the moon near Earth! Abrams doesn’t want one “boring” moment of exposition; I’ve suggested a Captain’s Log as in days of old: “It’s X days to Vulcan, and I’m concerned about …” “We have X days to catch up to Khan on Kronos” [I give up spelling the Klingon homeworld the TNG way, I haven't gotten it the same way twice].

613. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 27, 2013

@596. “in TOS, Kirk was a ladies man. In SITD, he’s a raving slut.”

Yes, and it fits. Ladies man before when he had the influence of a father, becomes more of an extreme ladies man when his father is not in his life.

Fit”s perfectly, and provides the opportunity for major emotional growth for nuKirk.

So I agree completely, TUP; and furthermore, it makes for a great Kirk story.

So your negative point was???

614. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

^^^^
Star Trek: Khan Issue #1 hits the streets October 16th.

615. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 27, 2013

@611

Marja,

That is an area I don’t like in STID. The quick transit times are areas that need to be corrected in future nuTrek movies.

I can buy that Vulcan is close, but certainly not Kronos.

I’ll bet this was a JJ decision; not Bob Orci’s.

616. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 27, 2013

@613. I just wish we’d get Trek novels for these instead of the silly cartoons.

617. Marja - September 27, 2013

570 TUP, I agree with you on Kirk’s arc. He should have received a Meritorious Service Medal or other top Starfleet honor at the end of ST09, and taken the First Officer position with Pike CO of the Enterprise in STiD. The radiation sacrifice should have been Pike IAW TOS [and my earlier suggestion], but the condensed action of both movies precluded this and gave us this odd sequence in Kirk’s arc.

588 TUP, “[Kirk] vocalizing why he wanted to go into the chamber alone was not required because we know he’s a hero. And in that moment that he aknowledges he is going in (I dont recall the words), we see the realization in him of what level of sacrifice comes with the big chair.”

But he could’ve barked, “Scotty, STAND DOWN! That’s an order.” and headed for the chamber – quick shot of Scotty’s agonized expression.

618. Marja - September 27, 2013

596 TUP, They’d have had to make that security guy a LOT smaller. He was so large he was like two of Scotty! Then I could see your version of the fight. They got a huge guy so they could elide a 1- or 2-minute fight ….

“He didnt use women, he fell in love with every woman because he was chasing the idea that he could be a family man AND a Starship Captain and he would learn every time that it was not so.” Okay, this is true in about the first season and half of Season Two. After that, Kirk’s “romantic” adventures become a bit more dubious. I loved the mature way he was written in Season One.

This Kirk is a brawler and action hero, yeah, but he’s almost 10 years younger than TOS Kirk, he still has lots to learn, and [stepping back real-world speaking] is the hero in a Summer Blockbuster : p

619. Marja - September 27, 2013

618 TUP, I need to correct my response a bit. You said “he was chasing the idea that he could be a family man AND a Starship Captain and he would learn every time that it was not so.”

I said, “Okay, this is true in about the first season and half of Season Two.” Actually, he was a romantic, decent guy, the kind you’d have an affair with [rather than a one-nighter], but knew was headed back Out There and not likely a good lifelong love/husband-father type. Roddenberry explicitly stated in the ST Writers’ Guide that Kirk’s first and last love was the Enterprise.

620. P Technobabble - September 27, 2013

587. Cygnus

Hmm. Pretty tough choice…

(“Oh!” he said as she stood looking over his shoulder, reading what he’d just typed. “Just kidding, dear. Honest!”)

621. Curious Cadet - September 27, 2013

@617. Marja,
“He should have received a Meritorious Service Medal or other top Starfleet honor at the end of ST09, and taken the First Officer position with Pike CO of the Enterprise in STiD.”

At the risk of rehashing ST09′s issues, the filmmakers said they needed to get Kirk in the chair by the end of the film. OK, assuming that’s the goal, they could have done one simple thing … “one year later”. Just like they did at the end of STID, which in my opinion, was not needed — ha! Oh the irony.

Move the ceremony to the bridge of the Enterprise where Pike turns over command to Kirk after Kirk served a year as his first officer, with distinction, shaking down the Enterprise. During the ensuing congratulations, Spock walks over and offers his services. Kirk accepts, turns to Pike with a wink and orders Sulu to “punch it”.

STID begins fresh.

622. Phil - September 27, 2013

@612. I’m at the point where I really don’t care that much anymore. The production team is vague on so much background in both of these movies that I have to believe it’s deliberate. Whether it’s because they are just doing the ‘bang-bang’ action flick, or some paranoid drive to avoid having to actually have to explain anything at all, all it’s really done is create this schizophrenic divide in the fan community, which isn’t the best situation the producers could want. Yeah, I’m sure there’s some bulls**t technobabble explanation for everything, though I’m happy with accepting that time did pass, we just didn’t see it.

623. Red Dead Ryan - September 27, 2013

Cygnus-X1,

Your constant negative posts have gotten tiresome and have worn thin with us here. Please, if you have nothing positive to say, then do us a favor and not say anything at all.

624. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 27, 2013

@557 – rogerachong

“Agreed MJ Lots of folks on this site are quite intelligent and yet they ask writers to spoon feed them like a child when a film is made. Every film or TV show for that matter will double its running time if every single little thing has to be shown on screen…The poster is trying to do just that.. So he thinks Khan is a fool, as such he is unable to use a refitted emergency vehicle to attack starfleet HQ. He did not cloak the vehicle. Duh and Double Duh!! He didn’t have to because we are one big happy fleet. The HQ walls were not plexi-glass but a special reinforced one like bullet-proof glass. Duh once again. Khan’s weapons on the emergency vehicle were special. “NOTE the green light look (Borg Tech?) and the sound of it. He tore up the place like it was just normal glass. BADAZZ! Never bring a knife to a gun fight! Khan 101.”

Exactly !!!

Moreover, since Cygnus X-1 keeps avoiding my comments on why the wall-to-wall windows were not secure enough in STID, I will repeat — Star Trek 4 showed A PRECEDENT where Starfleet HQ frankly has weak transparent wall-to-wall windows. If ST4, the window just simply blew in, for Christ’s sake. So, we know from past Star Trek movies that either:

(1) Star-fleet never really considered a major terrorist threat to it’s office building, and so it (and it’s wall-to-wall windows) was designed accordingly (FYI, the had “pre-911″ easy access for people to gov’t buildings in the U.S. — they didn’t really take a threat seriously); or

(2) They used a faulty “low cost bid” method of contractor selection on the wall-to-windows for Starfleet HQ, and got crappy windows with cheap installation techniques as a result. LOL

625. Keachick - September 27, 2013

How can there “bad science” in a 23rd century Star Trek universe (either universes)? The “worst science” of all was created back in 1960′s with the proposition that starships of the future could warp their way through space. Nearly 50 years later, real-world scientists still debate the theory and the closest we can get to seeing if anything akin just might be possible is happening at NIF laboratories in San Francisco, which, coincidentally, is what became the Enterprise’s “warp core” in this movie.

Red matter (layman’s term for what would be a very long word which most people would describe as technobabble) is an alien substance. Such a substance is not found on Earth neither, I believe, is ST’s Dilithium which is essential for warp drive. Dilithium was found on planets like where the Horta hung out…Is that bad science as well?

Four years, the same old arguments made against these movies rear up and the same explanations, most of them actually based on real-world scientific understanding and theory, kept being repeated.

The fact that many of you still do not understand the various natures of what we call black holes or how a volatile substance like Red Matter will most likely be transported has little to do with the Supreme Court writing bad science and more to do with people not being able to comprehend present day real-world scientific theory and knowledge.

This is getting pathetic.

626. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

@611. Marja

Quinto did not say the line, Greenwood did.

Your memory of the movie is impressive and obviously much better than mine, but didn’t they refer to it as a cold fusion device while Spock was planting it in the volcano?

(And yes, Quinto is very good with lines – I didn’t mean it to come off as critical of him personally.)

My point being that the writers did have something at least technobabble-y to call it and someone – maybe JJ, maybe someone else, seemed to have nixed that for a term that makes it sound seriously non-science based.

That is to say …maybe O&A are turning in better scripts than we get to see. For instance the beautiful scene with Jim Kirk and his brother George that got nixed in 09. i.e. – I’m defending them.

I too noticed lots of differences in the novelization and the ’09 movie and found them interesting.

627. Keachick - September 27, 2013

“OTOH, the Portable Transwarp one stop 10 light year hop, from the stolen equation… is just silly.”

Why is it silly? Khan had access to various technologies and the equations that made them possible. He needed to find the quickest getaway. Far from silly, it was actually good thinking on his part to get hold of these equations, if he could, and see if he could use them to make his own personal transwarp beaming device. He did just that. Silly – definitively not. Imaginative, foolhardy/courageous – Yes.

Yes, Scotty did describe the use of this technology as a way of “hopping across the galaxy”, however it is obvious that Scotty was not being literal here. Indeed, if one even watch those creatures specially designed to hop, they rarely make one big hop to anywhere, but a series of little hops, punctuated by an occasional big leap. Watched my two bunnies (dec.) hop from from front lawn onto the back lawn behind the house on many occasions…

628. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

@582. MJB, Ahmed

“Or perhaps there is a ghost in the system :)”

Perhaps the NSA? ;)

Doesn’t that make it a spook, either way? *ducks*

629. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 27, 2013

“OTOH, the Portable Transwarp one stop 10 light year hop, from the stolen equation… is just silly.”

Ah, you mean like “protomatter”.

Whoops!

630. Marja - September 27, 2013

621 Curious, YES. “One Year Later” would have done very nicely, and I like your stage business with Pike there :-) … but STiD would need to be, in large part, redone, because the plot hinges on Kirk’s naivete and hot-headed response to Pike’s death [which was just not necessary btw. He could have been injured badly enough for Kirk to think it was mortal. But I guess Spock wouldn't have gained insight on human death, oh well].

626 TrekkieJan, “That is to say …maybe O&A are turning in better scripts than we get to see. For instance the beautiful scene with Jim Kirk and his brother George that got nixed in 09. i.e. – I’m defending them.” I agree about the Jim and George scene. It gives some explanation of why Jim would destroy that antique car. That he was depriving mean Uncle Frank of it and “burying” his dad’s car seemed fitting reason for its destruction. And I also loved the scene of Spock’s birth, Amanda in tears of joy …

631. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 27, 2013

@627.

Actually — and I’ve covered this before on other posts — if you have Warp Technology, and you have transporter technology, then transporting through a wormhole that you create with a warp engine should be easily within the technology limits of those technologies.

632. Keachick - September 27, 2013

#611 – “It doesn’t surprise me at all that Kirk’s quick recovery from being irradiated would take you out of the movie : ) From your entries here I see you’re an editor and a longtime SF fan. Curious Cadet is analytical in the same way.”

Yes, so we keep reading, re TrekkieJan’s editorial abilities and what about Curious Cadet’s analytical skills?…hmmm

What quick recovery from being irradiated? How do you define “quick”, given that Kirk’s “quick recovery” was due to a number of factors, like more advanced medical technology, better treatments for various kinds of radiation and the synthesis of the necessary components found in Khan’s blood.

Kirk had been comatose for two weeks before he gained consciousness. We next see him speaking at the podium and he talks about a year having gone by since the destruction of a good part of San Francisco and Star Fleet Headquarters. Therefore we could be easily talking several months given over to Kirk making a full(?) recovery.

633. Keachick - September 27, 2013

Kirk told us that it was a year since…

Somethimes people need to watch and listen more and talk less…

634. Keachick - September 27, 2013

#630 – So, MJ, can we conclude that Khan’s transwarp beaming device is feasible within the bounds of what is understood of Star Trek science and therefore, NOT bad science?

I say YES.

635. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - September 27, 2013

@632. Keachick – September 27, 2013

The only reference to a year passing is in STID.

I don’t recall anything at the end of Star Trek 2009 that indicated the Enterprise was going out ’1 year later’ after the Battle of Vulcan, which is what is being discussed in posts 621 & 630 as a way of showing a somewhat more seasoned Kirk in the captain’s chair at the end of the 2009 movie and lessening the fan criticism over Kirk going from cadet to captain ‘in the blink of an eye’…

636. Phil - September 27, 2013

@631. Maybe not – and I’m oversimplifying here – a warp field creates a distortion of space to move an object from one point to another. The transporter creates a quantum effect, in essence copying an object at one location while destroying it at the other. In the Trek universe transporters have an effective range, albeit arbitrary. In reality, it seems to me the limitation on range would be dictated by the power supply, not physical distance. All you would need is a coordinate (which might be harder to get then you think) and the juice to create the effect. Relative to another ship at warp, I really don’t see why someone could not transport from one ship to another – again, a function of power and coordinates.

From what I’ve read about this quantum experimentation that has already gone on scientists have created the effect, the problem being is that it took enormous amounts of power to quantum teleport a single atom. Clearly there are obstacles at this point.

In the make-believe Trek world, it’s not that much of a stretch to accept that a rudimentary system is in place to allow for a single transport under unusual circumstances – it’s a system that isn’t practical enough for widespread or civilian use. 150 years ago the telegraph wasn’t practical, because you had to string wire clear across the country. 25 years ago, cell phones were not practical because there were no towers or satellites. So, at this point in the Trek world, they still need starships. As the transporter technology is perfected, not so much.

637. TUP - September 27, 2013

Abrams saying Kirk was always a womanizer shows he doesn’t get the character. If we are going to argue this universe’s Kirk has different influences then okay I guess. But then make a different movie with different characters. I don’t want a Kirk of low character.

Let’s not forget the birth of Kirk made little sense in the first place. Kirk was born in Iowa. So why was a very pregnant Winona even on the kelvin? I could accept that the attack caused early delivery but George seemed aware she was in labour (why was he on routine duty?). The timeline didn’t diverge until kirks birth so this point makes no sense and violates canon.

These writers chose to play in this universe and should have more respect for it.

I have no issue with leaps for the sake of moving the film along but these writers don’t truly get the emotion and character of Star Trek and thus they routinely miss opportunities to polish the films.

The writing is too often heavy handed dropping anvils. The tribble being the worst example of this.

638. Keachick - September 27, 2013

#634 – I was referring to this comment by Marja.
“It doesn’t surprise me at all that Kirk’s quick recovery from being irradiated would take you out of the movie…”
I think that some wires got crossed here re the reference Kirk made when he was standing at the podium giving the speech saying “one year to the day”…ie I was querying the notion of a “quick recovery”.

Ooops, my apologies…

#621 – I like that scenario. However, they would need to retcon the seriousness of Pike’s injuries (remember he was consigned to a wheelchair by the end ST09).

Hindsight being the wonderful thing that it is – I would have preferred it if Pike had recovered from his injuries. He had been given another ship to captain and had Kirk as his first officer, while the Enterprise was undergoing repairs. Then, we see, about a year later, Pike hand over the newly repaired Enterprise to a newly promoted Captain James Kirk.

I think that could have worked. Whether we would have seen Kirk violate the Prime Directive – not sure, but Yes, given these particular circumstances, more than likely.

However, I do not believe there would be the drama associated with Kirk lying by omission on his report to Starfleet. That would have been the big difference. Kirk would have reported all the events, as did Spock, and then state clearly and openly, why he made the decisions he did and would do so again if the same/similar situation arose. I think that, under Pike’s command, Kirk would have developed the maturity and courage to take full responsibility and be able to stand by his decisions.

639. Gary 8.5 - September 27, 2013

This Kirk wasnt born in Iowa .
Different timeline,different unfolding of events .

640. TrekkieJan - September 27, 2013

635. Phil

Maybe not – and I’m oversimplifying here – a warp field creates a distortion of space to move an object from one point to another.

The warp, I believe, doesn’t move the object, just shortens space so less movement is needed. And though it’s not really treated in this manner in this series, there’s probably some danger in distorting space near people, buildings, planets…not to mention the shielding needed for the matter/antimatter reaction meaning this would not be a small device.

The transporter creates a quantum effect, in essence copying an object at one location while destroying it at the other. In the Trek universe transporters have an effective range, albeit arbitrary. In reality, it seems to me the limitation on range would be dictated by the power supply, not physical distance.

But there must be *some* signal range, requiring the kind of subspace signal boosters communications have to use (as well as power limitations.)

All you would need is a coordinate (which might be harder to get then you think) and the juice to create the effect. Relative to another ship at warp, I really don’t see why someone could not transport from one ship to another – again, a function of power and coordinates.

The calculations to jump from one ship at warp to another would be….just crazy large astronomical – the computer for making these calculations would have *some* limitations, itself.

641. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

601. K-7 – September 27, 2013

—Cygnus, You have come up with a supposedly objective “game,” which you claim is to help us honestly assess plot elements of STID—

I said no such thing. You really seem bent on attacking me over something.

I was enjoying the conversation about plot holes and came up with the game. I only offer up examples which I thought fit one of the two categories. If people disagree that an example is either a plot hole or bad science, then they can make their case, and we’ll have a thoughtful, enjoyable conversation about it. That is the sort of thing that I enjoy talking about.

I really enjoy the conversation about the plot holes in STID. I enjoy reading articles about it, too. I love watching Mr. Plinkett’s reviews for the same reason. If you don’t like talking about plot holes, then don’t talk about plot holes. If you don’t like the game, then don’t play the game.

And, to repeat, I don’t have any kind of Islamist or anti-Islamist agenda, either.

In any case, attacking me isn’t going to do Trek any good. And I’m not interested in repeatedly defending myself against your personal attacks. So, this will be the final time.

I think you’re taking all of this a little too seriously here, seeing nefarious motives and hidden agendas everywhere. I mean, for cryin’ out lout, it’s it’s just….

642. K-7 - September 27, 2013

” I love watching Mr. Plinkett’s reviews for the same reason. ”

Ah yes, the make believe character who tortured and killed women in his life. Love that guy!

“And, to repeat, I don’t have any kind of Islamist or anti-Islamist agenda, either.”

I never said the. You keep trying to point this out, but I made it perfreclty clear that I thought your “agenda” was to trash STID.

But, the “72 virgins” comment was in bad taste – at least in my opinion.

You don’t need to defend yourself our respond to this post. This is about all I have to say on this as well at this point.

643. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

624. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – September 27, 2013

—Moreover, since Cygnus X-1 keeps avoiding my comments on why the wall-to-wall windows were not secure enough in STID, I will repeat — Star Trek 4 showed A PRECEDENT where Starfleet HQ frankly has weak transparent wall-to-wall windows. If ST4, the window just simply blew in, for Christ’s sake. So, we know from past Star Trek movies that either:—

Sorry, there are a lot of posts and I missed what you said.

You raise an interesting point. My explanation would be the following:

(1) The energy being emitted by the probe cause structural failure in the transparent aluminum windows at Star Fleet HQ. We don’t know that much about the physical properties of the energy being emitted by the alien probe, apart from the portion of the waveform containing the sped-up whale song. Whatever other harmonics the alien energy emission may have contained, we know that it caused power failures, disturbances in the Earth’s oceans and crust, and was powerful enough to have threatened the destruction of all life on the Earth and might have broken apart the Earth as well. It wouldn’t have hurt to have thrown in a line of explanation about it.

(2) Star Fleet HQ in STIV should have been more secure. As people have said about the shattered glass in STID, I do see why the choice was made in STIV to have Star Fleet HQ in shambles as they communicate with the Enterprise, their only hope of avoiding total destruction. It did make for a more dramatic scene than having environmental disasters going on outside Star Fleet HQ while the top brass are all cozy and warm inside having chat about the urgency of their situation with the Enterprise in space. Though, again, STIV would not have suffered from an extra line of explanation about the extraordinary phenomenon happening. Something like, “The probe’s transmission appears benign to organic lifeforms, but it’s disrupting certain artificial, inorganic materials at the molecular level!”

644. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - September 27, 2013

@643. Cygnus-X1 – September 27, 2013

…umm – just a nit pick here: the Enterpise was destroyed in ST III, Kirk’s ‘magnificent seven’ were on the Klingon BoP…

645. Phil - September 27, 2013

@643. Guys, you are way over complicating this. There would not have been a practical reason to fortify any given room, or the entire structure when an enemy can apparently warp into orbit and obliterate the entire complex from orbit. The Pentagon is probably the second or third most secure building in the country. I’d bet it’s fortified offices are deep underground. And while it would be a lot harder today, I’d also bet that if a determined individual got behind the stick of a plane, they could crash it into the building again.

646. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

606. TrekkieJan – September 27, 2013

—Site to Site transporters – as good as Star Trek science gets.—

Do you really think that’s as good as Trek science gets? I don’t follow…

If you’ve ever heard/read professional physicists talking about transporter technology, they basically talk about it being implausible due to the quantum issues of pinpointing the location and velocity of each molecule in a person and then recreating them all at the second location. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is what we call what heretofore has been the impossibility of knowing both the velocity and location of any given particle. TNG explained this away rather cleverly by simply introducing the technical term “Heisenberg compensator” as a component of transporter technology. It was sort of a wink to the more scientifically minded people in the audience, adding class and intelligence to the show, and a good example of how it pays to have a science consultant on your sci-fi payroll. So, overlooking the Heisenberg prohibition…

The transporter device at location #1 is basically destroying the thing that it’s scanning and then sending the information to the device at location #2, which then uses that information (the pattern) like a recipe to “cook up” an exact copy of whatever was scanned at location #1. If every, single molecule in location #2 has the exact same physical and chemical properties, relative location and velocity as its counterpart had at location #1, then in theory, an exact copy complete with thoughts etc… has been made.

The other main problem is the gargantuan amount of energy required to re-create each molecule at the second location.

A site-to-site transporter introduces the third problem of…what the hell is actually doing the re-assembling at location #2?!? If there’s no transporter device already in place at the second location, then what’s doing the job of re-creating the pattern? And if the transporter device at location #1 gets dematerialized, then how does it send the pattern information to the device at location #2? It’s really jumping the shark in terms of science fiction.

The only other possible way that I can think of to explain away a site-to-site transporter is to have it be a totally different kind of technology than regular transporter technology, like some kind of device that somehow opens up a portal into additional spatial dimensions, a short-cut, for the person to walk through and end up at a distant location in our universe in a matter of seconds. But, apart from that approach never having been even hinted at with regard to the site-to-site transporter, doing so would open up whole host of implausibility issues for the same reason that Red Matter did. Which leads nicely into…

Red Matter. I totally agree with you here. The supernova “threatening the galaxy” was a really dumb mistake that would never have happened if they’d had a science consultant. Their premise, however, did require some kind of portal into the Alternate Universe. A black hole was not a particularly good choice for achieving the portal. Without getting too much into this, the main problem in all of this—Red Matter and a black hole—is quantity.

A black hole is a gravitational phenomenon. All of its characteristic properties are a result of its enormous gravitation; and its enormous gravitation is a direct result of its mass. The amount of mass (or energy) required to form a black hole, even one as small as the one in ST’09, would be ENORMOUS.

By way of comparison, the smallest black holes known to exist form from stars 4X the size of our sun. The resultant black hole, if we ignore many things and just try to gauge what its aperture would be (if it somehow formed a portal to another universe) would (I’m estimating) be measured in meters rather than in kilometers.

OK, so that comes from a star 4X the size of our sun. That’s how much mass you need to form a small black hole. And they’ve compacted that much mass into a DROP of Red Matter??? And Spock’s ship is loaded down with a GIANT BLOB of the stuff? That ship would weigh around as much as 1,000 of our suns, never mind the issues in somehow preventing all of that mass from collapsing in on itself absent nuclear fusion to keep it from doing so (as in stars). Anyway, Red Matter is kind of a ridiculous contrivance.

Trek is replete with worm holes, inter-spatial rifts and so forth by this point. Borrowing one of those devices for the plot needs of ST’09 would have been a better way to go. A natural phenomenon is better than a man-made one because it requires less explanation for suspension of disbelief. For me, at least.

647. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

644. ObsessiveStarTrekFan – September 27, 2013

Sorry, my mistake. I was actually seeing the BoP in my mind, but typed Enterprise out of habit.

648. Cygnus-X1 - September 27, 2013

P.S. to #646

…a natural phenomenon (or alien technology) requires less explanation for suspension of disbelief than a man-made one. The reason basically is that humans are the element of sci-fi about which I am most familiar. Extrapolating what future humans could be like is still a derivation of what present humans are like and what past humans have been like.

649. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - September 27, 2013

@Cygnus X-1

I would respectfully suggest that you completely misunderstand Red Matter as it was presented in ST-2009. As I said in my previous post — and this completely fits the “evidence” of how we saw Red Matter used in two different scenarios in ST2009 — Red matter was described by me in this way in terms of ST2009:

“A black hole is made of matter. If Red Matter is a catalyst that converts ordinary matter to super-dense black hole-like matter, then the size of the black hole will be dependent on BOTH the amount of Red Matter you are using AND the amount of normal matter available in the immediate vicinity which can be converted to super-dense black hole matter.

So in the Vulcan scene, the amount of Red Matter injected was the limiting factor, while in the Narada scene, the amount of ordinary matter in the immediate vicinity was the limiting factor.”

So Red Matter is thus a very exotic substance that when used in certain ways can covert localized normal matter into super-dense black hole matter, thus creating a black hole.

650. Spock Out - September 27, 2013

Orci,

Please say you have nothing to do with Transformers 4! Mark Walhberg is awesome usually but Pain and Gain was terrible. I live in Florida and I’m completely embarrased by that movie.

I can’t help but think America is doomed imagining Hollywood and Washington is this lacking these days.

As a Neo Confederate maybe I should be ecstatic! Your 911 nausea is now more humorous than ever!!!

Spock Out

651. Cervantes - September 27, 2013

I see boborci and others have ‘de-cloaked’ on this site once again, since I last checked in. Welcome back aboard fellas.

Okay, I see there continues to be a difference of opinion here about how successfully J.J.’s ‘alternate timeline’ movies have turned out. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion (although not their own facts, as Anthony used to say…), but for those that really dislike certain aspects of them, I’ll repeat my own simple solution on how I manage to get a lot more out of them…

Firstly, just accept they’re out there now. They exist. Just like many other disappointing movie sequels/and prequels do…so accept it, however grudgingly.

The majority of these movies can be painstakingly fanedited into something better of course (including J.J.’s ‘Treks’), for those that know how to…but as I’ve always liked the splendid notion of the awesome ‘multi-verse’ theory (it’s no less ridiculous than many a ‘Trek’ plotline after all…), I choose to imagine that J.J.’s movies are NOT actually happening in an ‘alternate timeline’ of the TOS ‘Prime universe’ as intended…but are instead occurring in a totally ‘alternate UNIVERSE’ to the one seen in the original TOS ‘Prime universe’ altogether!

You see,I choose to imagine that the character Nero who ends up altering his ‘timeline’…is actually in a totally DIFFERENT ‘universe’ (of the ‘multi-verse’ theory…) to the TOS ‘Prime universe’ to begin with, when he changes the events around him…

…and the elderly Spock that follows Nero is merely from the same totally DIFFERENT ‘universe’ to the TOS ‘Prime universe’ also…

So while this ‘alternate UNIVERSE’ Spock, Kirk and co. may have evolved to have remarkably ‘similar’ attributes and surroundings as the characters seen in the TOS ‘Prime universe’, they are NOT actually the same ones seen in that show…

This solution also has the advantage of working in the exact same way for me where ‘Star Trek The Next Generation’ and other shows is concerned too – if I look on the characters in those as merely being in some totally DIFFERENT ‘universe’ to the TOS ‘Prime universe’ also…then it means the TOS ‘Prime universe’ Captain Kirk’s last onscreen ‘sign off’ was the ‘Undiscovered Country’ movie, where he was alive and well…and NOT the ‘Generations’ movie where he died on a rusty bridge! – that was a totally DIFFERENT ‘universe’ Captain Kirk that perished in that movie, and NOT the TOS ‘Prime universe’ Captain Kirk, after all…

A little convoluted perhaps, but no more so than the plots of J.J.’s versions themselves, I reckon. And it works well enough to satisfy me in this instance, so that I can enjoy these reboots a lot more…so no harm done. :)

652. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 28, 2013

@650 “Mark Walhberg is awesome usually but Pain and Gain was terrible. I live in Florida and I’m completely embarrased by that movie. I can’t help but think America is doomed imagining Hollywood and Washington is this lacking these days. As a Neo Confederate maybe I should be ecstatic! Your 911 nausea is now more humorous than ever!!!”

Huh? wtf?

Does anyone out there have a Universal Translator?

653. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 28, 2013

Yes, this is the way I interpreted Red Matter as well. Its needs critical mass plus ordinary matter to create a black hole matter. It’s not of black hole density on its own.

***********************************
649. Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle – September 27, 2013
@Cygnus X-1

I would respectfully suggest that you completely misunderstand Red Matter as it was presented in ST-2009. As I said in my previous post — and this completely fits the “evidence” of how we saw Red Matter used in two different scenarios in ST2009 — Red matter was described by me in this way in terms of ST2009:

“A black hole is made of matter. If Red Matter is a catalyst that converts ordinary matter to super-dense black hole-like matter, then the size of the black hole will be dependent on BOTH the amount of Red Matter you are using AND the amount of normal matter available in the immediate vicinity which can be converted to super-dense black hole matter.

So in the Vulcan scene, the amount of Red Matter injected was the limiting factor, while in the Narada scene, the amount of ordinary matter in the immediate vicinity was the limiting factor.”

So Red Matter is thus a very exotic substance that when used in certain ways can covert localized normal matter into super-dense black hole matter, thus creating a black hole.

654. Captain Slow - September 28, 2013

Everyone complains about red matter but ignores proto matter which to me is one of the most scientifically ridiculous things in any of the ST movies. Red matter was matter that was red. Proto matter doesn’t even make sense as a name because it means “before matter” and that has nothing to do with making a planet grow old and blow up. But that movie was direct by Nimoy so it can’t be criticized for bad science. On a related note, I still can’t figure out how re-animated Spock (who would have become a baby) opened his completely sealed coffin and walked all the way over to the giant plastic cactus.

655. Marja - September 28, 2013

654 Cap’n Slow, I have to agree. STIII while emotionally rewarding in some few respects was full of such bad sci-fi that it took me – yes, even me! – out of the movie. I’ve never cared much for it.

Even the Vulcan fal-tor-pan scene was … well, suffice it to say I pretty much didn’t “buy” the whole movie, but was glad Spock had returned to the TOS timeline. Alas, they couldn’t make him look any younger [sorry Mr Nimoy] ;-)

656. Spud69 - September 28, 2013

@Bob Orci

Star Trek Into Darkness was AMAZING!

Please ignore the haters, the new timeline universe is perfect. The prime universe was done to death, the fans don’t have to watch the new Trek, they have around 736 hours (31 days of viewing) their prime universe to watch.

Trek desperately needed an upgrade and you and the rest of the team have done a great job in resurrecting Star Trek. To be honest, I would have started from scratch and gone straight for a remake rather than creating an alternate universe.

I’m looking forward to Star Trek III.

657. Captain Slow - September 28, 2013

TSFS is my least favorite of the TOS movies. I liked TFF better! For all its problems at least it had good character moments. And the fal-tor-pan scene didn’t make much sense scientifically and then they ripped it off in Avatar (if Paramount hires James Cameron to direct ST 3 I’ll jump into a radioactive warp core, it would be preferable).

658. Keachick - September 28, 2013

“Abrams saying Kirk was always a womanizer shows he doesn’t get the character. If we are going to argue this universe’s Kirk has different influences then okay I guess. But then make a different movie with different characters. I don’t want a Kirk of low character.”

It really depends on how you define “womanizer”. There are many definitions out there and it is possible that some of them may characterize some of Kirk’s behaviour, then again, some romantic behaviour may be just that… I am not sure how this Kirk is necessarily of “low character”. We were shown and told so very little with regard to how he related to women, other than the briefest of bedroom scenes, that it is very difficult to gauge anything, other than what a viewer’s own projections could be.

“Low character” to me means that he may lie, he may force himself on someone, he may not bother to take necessary precautions to prevent catching or spreading disease and/or unwanted pregnancies.

Another aspect is that many a man may just as easily “fall in love” with a woman he has just met and as time passes, realize that she may not be quite the fantasy princess that he imagined. We see this behaviour among females as stupid and naive, but we also tend to understand and tolerate it more than we do with men. When men realize that perhaps their love may have been rather blind and then back away, they are often called womanizing bastards. Both sexes treat males more harshly in this respect.

It is odd since it has often been contended that generally males tend to be less well emotionally equipped than females…

Kirk is a character who emanates obvious and healthy male sexuality and writers and audiences do not know how to relate to such a person…then again, that is also to some degree a reflection of our present cultural attitudes in general.

I have watched the infamous Carol Marcus underwear scene and Kirk looked up at her and then focused his gaze at her eye level. Chris Pine is somewhat taller than Alice Eve. If he (Kirk) had been gawking at her body, his eyes would be looking more downward, but he was looking straight ahead, either looking over her head or level with it, at her face.

659. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@655 Marja and 656 Captain Slow

Agreed about the science in The Search for Spock, and the character moments that still make it work – I don’t watch it very often, for some of the same reasons I find ’09 hard to watch again.

TSFS kills David, Kirk’s son, as the sacrifice for bringing Spock back – 09 destroys Vulcan, Amanda – and probably every other Vulcan we’ve ever heard of.

I think – and this is my opinion and I realize it’s not a popular one here so I’ll only say it the once and then stfu – the difference for me between original Trek and NuTrek is that Trek was about creating an amazing setting to tell stories full of ideas and wonder (as best it could), creating characters to populate it who had charm, who made us want to explore alongside them, who showed us people with all kinds of backgrounds could work side by side with equality – every episode (none perfect) adding to the richness of the canon at least somewhat (yes, we can all point out silly episodes – the show had no budget and so many creative difficulties and nothing like it had ever been done before …)

- and 09 destroyed. Much easier, creatively, to destroy another’s work than build your own.

I feel this way about Frank Miller too, believe me.

But as said above, done is done. I’ll make a movie by movie decision now whether to participate or not. I have problems with NuKirk and am not very fond of NuSpock. I kind of feel, like the Half in the Bag Guys, that I want a movie about Bones.

I have problems with the *tone* of the movies – and apparently other people do too, if they’re complaining about message laden popcorn. I’d like to keep the message, ditch some of the popcorn, myself.

To me these writer’s strength is character-dialog, and a sense of fun. I hope they play to that strength.

660. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@646. Cygnus-X1

A site-to-site transporter introduces the third problem of…what the hell is actually doing the re-assembling at location #2?!? If there’s no transporter device already in place at the second location, then what’s doing the job of re-creating the pattern? And if the transporter device at location #1 gets dematerialized, then how does it send the pattern information to the device at location #2? It’s really jumping the shark in terms of science fiction.

Okay, I’m seeing your problem with it. I was picturing it as a portable transporter pad – rather like the smaller transporter stations one saw around Star Fleet headquarters. (And of course Admirals all take shuttles, as the joke goes, and now we know why.)

It would have to be remotely powered – and would have to be left behind, as it was in STID. Best if it was actually teleporting to another transporter station, working on the hop principal. Presumably Khan had everything else set up in advance, which works with the theory that this was a long con for him, and not a sudden grief-stricken tantrum.

I am somewhat familiar with quantum mechanics on a very lay level – and the principal we now say the transporter must be based on, Heisenberg compensator et al. (I’ve also spent way too much time on that one fan site that goes exhaustively into warp theory, etc. Love it.)

661. Captain Slow - September 28, 2013

@TrekkieJan

I don’t have much of a problem with the long distance transport in STID because in the tribble comic you see Scotty beam a tribble from the Enterprise all the way to Earth by using communication relay stations. And as you can see in this video (if it works) of the screen in Marcus’s office, there’s something called a trans warp network. Now I don’t know what exactly that is but it’s possible it’s something to enable beaming to distant locations, but only those near the relays.

What I also found interesting on the screen was the label that said wormhole research. Maybe the next movie could have the Enterprise leaving the galaxy.

662. Marja - September 28, 2013

658, Keachick, “We see this behaviour among females as stupid and naive, but we also tend to understand and tolerate it more than we do with men. When men realize that perhaps their love may have been rather blind and then back away, they are often called womanizing bastards. Both sexes treat males more harshly in this respect. …
It is odd since it has often been contended that generally males tend to be less well emotionally equipped than females…Kirk … emanates obvious and healthy male sexuality and writers and audiences do not know how to relate to such a person…then again, that is also to some degree a reflection of our present cultural attitudes in general. [In the] Carol Marcus underwear scene Kirk looked up at her and then focused his gaze at her eye level. Chris Pine was looking straight ahead, either looking over her head or level with it, at her face.

To respond to the last, first, the main problem we had with the scene was that it was NOT FROM KIRK’S POV. The camera focused on her from about ankle/knee level. For the “money shot” as it were, the famous shot seen round the web. If it’d been shot from Kirk’s eye view, I would have fewer objections. I still think the scene could have been written with a great deal more sensitivity – to prevent Kirk from seeming jerky [in many folks' eyes] and to prevent The Male Gaze phenomenon in the audience.

Re: male and female sexuality, it sounds like folk are much more understanding of women’s sexual behavior and desires than they are in the US, admittedly a culture where almost everything in film is topsy-turvy from Europe, where sexuality is understood much better. Here it’s all the gory glory of violence and cruelty and torture of [guess who] women.

OK, here, women’s sexual desire here is very scary to the [mostly] male filmmakers producers and male studio executives. Women are cast as Madonnas or Whores. Either they’re pure and uninterested, or want to wait until there’s a solid relationship before having sex, or they’re outright Loose Women. I find it very sad. Males are quite accepted if they hit on a different woman every night, use her for sex, and move on. This is considered “normal” in popular culture. However you and I know that good guys at least like to form a friendship bond first. I feel Kirk is a fun-loving guy who likes women, doesn’t just “chat them up” to get laid, but shows genuine interest and makes clear that he’s not a “long-term prospect.” Then fair’s fair and the woman and he can enjoy themselves.

Part of the reason I like to see Spock and Uhura interacting is that they have a long-term commitment to one another. They are a “solid” couple who are equals. And no, guys, Spock is not “p*ssy-whipped.” Don’t demean couples in which the male and female regard each other respectfully, please.

There is a very unhealthy “norm” and depiction of male sexuality in US culture. Young men are getting poor examples in cinema, music and in P*rn which far too many watch and absorb.

663. Marja - September 28, 2013

659 TrekkiJan, “I have problems with the *tone* of the movies – and apparently other people do too, if they’re complaining about message laden popcorn. I’d like to keep the message, ditch some of the popcorn, myself. …To me these writer’s strength is character-dialog, and a sense of fun. I hope they play to that strength.

Yeah my prob with the movies is all the violence, and the cruelty and excessive destruction/killing in STiD. ST09 was by comparison much less violent. I’d like to see more of a scientific danger challenge than a big Vengeance craft. And I def want more dialogue. This is one thing Orci&Kurtzman do a great job with. Some of the gloss and speed needs to take second place to that.

664. Marja - September 28, 2013

659 TrekkieJan, An interesting question to weigh is, what happens to the “personality” (or soul if you believe in such) during a molecular destruction/reassembly sequence. A creepy thought, actually …

665. MJB - September 28, 2013

650. Spock Out

Did you consume some cocktails before you wrote that? Because I can figure out what the heck you’re talking about. Try again….

666. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@664. Marja
An interesting question to weigh is, what happens to the “personality” (or soul if you believe in such) during a molecular destruction/reassembly sequence. A creepy thought, actually …

I actually had a very rude awakening about this a couple of years ago, while reading This Book is Full of Spiders by David Wong. (Sequel to John Dies at the End) where the creepy psychiatrist goes on at some length about how Star Trek is a horror show to him, where the main characters are killed again and again every episode.

Basically, transporter technology and warp technology (and understandable aliens) are just things you have to have to tell a story in space. Unless you’re playing on God Mode (which isn’t fun for the reader) just set sensible limits – we all understand limits.

That’s why I usually say if you take the quantum mechanic of destroying matter at one point and assembling a copy at another point as the basis for Transporter Tech. This very much resembles the process we see on Star Trek, and in NextGen they did make a nod at this with the Heisenberg Compensator – but in my head canon, they found a better way to beam people around. (lol)

667. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@663. Marja
Yeah my prob with the movies is all the violence, and the cruelty and excessive destruction/killing in STiD. ST09 was by comparison much less violent. I’d like to see more of a scientific danger challenge than a big Vengeance craft. And I def want more dialogue. This is one thing Orci&Kurtzman do a great job with. Some of the gloss and speed needs to take second place to that.

I agree. And as you pointed out in a post above, O&K do relationships well.

Obviously, they set out to do a dark story in STID (and because of that I set out not to watch it) – and I feel Orci has things he needs to say – which is fine, by the way. A creator with a conscience is a good thing — as long as the story doesn’t devolve into propaganda (I’m not saying STID did. It’s just a general principal. If this subject is of interest, the movie Kiss of the Spider Woman deals with this subject matter exceedingly well.)

There was less punching in 09 — but they destroyed an entire world. I’d love to tone all of that down quite a bit and focus on the characters – let them grow. I am so positive, now that JJ has gone on to his real love, Star Wars.

668. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

And of course I meant Faster Than Light travel, not strictly Warp tech, is something you need to tell a story in space. Unless it’s a story where no-one goes very fast – generation ships, etc.

669. Marja - September 28, 2013

Agreed on the destruction of Vulcan. Oh. my. God. I was stunned and heard people all around me gasp in horror at that scene.

Elder Spock’s reaction said it all. Wise man, so saddened by an act of such cruelty and madness.

I really would like to see how the remaining Vulcans are getting on …

Novels, Paramount. Get it straight with CBS and please get some authors working on AU stories. I’d buy them! “Fill in the blanks” – please?

670. Marja - September 28, 2013

And just once, if we MUST have a punch-fest, can Kirk please win at least one interpersonal engagement with a physical opponent?

Somehow I just can’t imagine Captain Pike doing fisticuffs, anybody?

671. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@661. Captain Slow

I don’t have much of a problem with the long distance transport in STID because in the tribble comic you see Scotty beam a tribble from the Enterprise all the way to Earth by using communication relay stations.

Yeah, that’s pretty much what we’ve been saying, re signal boosters of some kind. Interesting. Obviously, the comic writers (I think Orci mainly oversees these?) have given this some thought.

And as you can see in this video (if it works) of the screen in Marcus’s office, there’s something called a trans warp network. Now I don’t know what exactly that is but it’s possible it’s something to enable beaming to distant locations, but only those near the relays.

Again, very interesting. Thank you. Good to see them both keeping continuity and putting thought into it.

What I also found interesting on the screen was the label that said wormhole research. Maybe the next movie could have the Enterprise leaving the galaxy.

Hopefully not because they’ve blown up this one. We have a pretty big galaxy here – and the closest one is unimaginably far away. They really don’t have to go that far to have a good story, imo. But again, I thank you. That’s very interesting.

672. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@670. Marja
And just once, if we MUST have a punch-fest, can Kirk please win at least one interpersonal engagement with a physical opponent?

omg, right???? Can’t he take a class before the next movie…?

Somehow I just can’t imagine Captain Pike doing fisticuffs, anybody?

Not any more…? Okay, I am sorry. I’m guessing he could lay someone out as a last resort.

673. Captain Slow - September 28, 2013

Oops. I forgot to add the link:

http://player.vimeo.com/video/72019454?byline=0&portrait=0&color=ffc505

Did Kirk beat anyone in a fist fight? The only person he knocked out with any ease was Scotty!

674. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@670. Marja

Somehow I just can’t imagine Captain Pike doing fisticuffs, anybody?

On a more serious note, I think there are some people who never have to resort to physically fighting. They have an air, a natural authority. Chris Pike is that kind of person, in my opinion. (As was Captain Robau from 09.) There’s a toughness and a kindness but a stern, limit to nonsense, too.

Not too many people test it. The best captains to come along since Picard and….*le sigh*

I base this on that my husband is rather like that – tall but not physically imposing – in fact, he’s disabled – but he has a certain quiet air. He’s never had to fight, since high school. At one party a big biker guy came up to him and confided he thought he could take anyone in the room – but he wasn’t sure about my husband. So yes, there are people like that. :)

675. Who cares - September 28, 2013

Captain Pike got in a fist fight in his only Prime Universe appearence, namely The Cage/The Menagerie, so yes I have in fact seen Captain Pike resort to fisticuffs.

676. Cygnus-X1 - September 28, 2013

649. Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle – September 27, 2013

—”A black hole is made of matter. If Red Matter is a catalyst that converts ordinary matter to super-dense black hole-like matter, then the size of the black hole will be dependent on BOTH the amount of Red Matter you are using AND the amount of normal matter available in the immediate vicinity which can be converted to super-dense black hole matter.—

But black hole matter and “normal” matter aren’t different species of matter or something. They’re both made of the same stuff: quarks and electrons. The only difference is their density.

If what you mean is that Red Matter somehow acts like a magnet attracting ordinary matter to it, then they should have shown that happening in the movie. But they didn’t.

And even better explanation along your line of reasoning would be that Red Matter somehow attracts dark matter. That would allow them to create a black hole using Red Matter in an area with no visible matter, being that dark matter is vastly more abundant (and invisible) than ordinary matter.

I mean, it would still be ridiculous that ONE DROP of that stuff could attract enough dark matter (or regular matter) to form a black hole. And what would be the mechanism of attraction, anyway? It can’t be gravity, for the reasons I mentioned above. Electromagnetic and nuclear forces are far too weak (and proportional to size) to act across such large distances. And that’s it. Those are all of the fundamental forces in our Universe.

So, now we’re getting into something so exotic that it comes from outside of our Universe? I mean, this is where it jumps the shark. Once you get this far removed from the world as we know it, that you’re assuming different physical properties and laws for the Universe (or for some alternate universe), then you’ve wandered into the realm of fantasy. Why not just have a wizard come and wave his magic wand to create a black hole.

677. Curious Cadet - September 28, 2013

@654. Captain Slow,
“Everyone complains about red matter but ignores proto matter which to me is one of the most scientifically ridiculous things in any of the ST movies.”

With all due respect … er, Captain, can we please at least stop with the straw man arguments? And I’m not pointing the finger just at you. Others here routinely do this as well.

As far as I know, nobody has brought up protomatter as a defense against anything. You assert “everyone” complains and ignores, but that’s far from the truth. It’s a gross generalization. And you and others make it sound like nobody ever criticized protomatter, or any other aspect of TWOK, or TSFS.

When a legitimate conversation about questionable aspects of Abrams movies comes up, inevitably these straw man arguments crop up which have no place in these conversations. If someone actually posts “protomatter was so much better thought out than red matter” then quote it and respond in kind. But to arbitrarily bring it up because its easier to discredit one than defend the other, is blatantly unfair, and frankly kind of annoying, but also disrespectful, and only serves to inflame the matter.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

678. Cygnus-X1 - September 28, 2013

660. TrekkieJan – September 28, 2013

I think my main problem is the reliance by Bad Robot on increasingly fantastical technology to tell their stories.

The Trek universe is already so replete with wondrous technology that they really shouldn’t have to keep inventing increasingly fantastical devices in order for their characters to get around.

As I said, basic transporter technology is already pushing it. It strains credulity, but we accept it because we see that it was necessary for the premise of TOS. When they keep adding and adding to that already implausble device, it gets too far removed from “reality” for me. Yes, I know that this is fiction, but it was originally conceived as science fiction, based upon the world as we know it. Characters carrying around a transporter in a duffel bag is too much. I mean, what’s next? All of the characters wearing wrist band transporters? Anyone, at any moment, can just drop their wrist band and have it beam them to some remote location? Where does it end?

679. Curious Cadet - September 28, 2013

@671. TrekkieJan,
“Yeah, that’s pretty much what we’ve been saying, re signal boosters of some kind.”

Again, for me Transwarp beaming is not so much of a problem in theoretical concept considering that it has been introduced, and precedent set in prior canon (Assignment Earth). Certainly the idea of signal boosters helps explain it. Subspace relays do this with communications, and in essence a transporter beam is nothing more than an elaborate communication. So, sure, Khan activated the Portable transwarp beaming device and bounced his signal all the way to Kronos on a pre-programmed setting.

The issue for me, is should they have done it at all, much less in the first place? To the extent they did it in ST09, again they should have just buried it and never brought it up again. Instead, not only do they do it, but they take away all possibility of Khan doing it in a more realistic way by having Scott power up a backpack-sized device, which somehow has the power to dematerialize a human and send him halfway across the galaxy and reassemble him, and show the final destination the device sent him to on its built-in display. Obviously if Khan had made several hops, the portable device would have only shown the last destination it sent him to, not the final destination (and having just watched it last night, khan is wearing what appears to be the same clothing in the shuttle as he wears on Kronos).

But if you really wanna nitpick this technology … The portable and emergency site-to-site transporters introduced in Voyager and NEM were picket-sized, and not only did they have the power to disassemble someone and beam them considerable distances, they dematerialized their own mechanisms and transported them!! I would love to see a group of physicists and engineers discuss how to make that possible!

680. Curious Cadet - September 28, 2013

662. Marja,
“I feel Kirk is a fun-loving guy who likes women, doesn’t just “chat them up” to get laid, but shows genuine interest and makes clear that he’s not a “long-term prospect.” Then fair’s fair and the woman and he can enjoy themselves.”

Exactly. Unfortunately, the filmmakers go out of their way in the completely unnecessary scene with Marcus on the shuttlecraft to point out that Kirk not only had an affair with Christine Chapel, which left her with a poor impression she relayed to Marcus, but Kirk doesn’t even remember her. I watched this last night, and there’s no mistake what point is being made. Kirk is a “womanizer” in the most pejorative sense of the word, and Abrams and Conan got a big male-bonding laugh out of that understanding, when he used the word in that interview. In the scene with the two cat women, Kirk literally ignores them as he answers the phone — they are mere playthings for his enjoyment to whom he does not need to explain himself.

681. Who cares - September 28, 2013

Yo Cygnus, are you forgetting that Data pulled out an emergency trasporter the size of a button (literally) in Nemesis to save Picard when the transporters on the Enterprise were disabled? Cause that is a whole lot smaller than a duffel bag, and once again, like similar devices on Voyager and DS9, the device beamed itself as well as Picard.

682. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@681. Who cares
Yo Cygnus, are you forgetting that Data pulled out an emergency trasporter the size of a button (literally) in Nemesis to save Picard when the transporters on the Enterprise were disabled? Cause that is a whole lot smaller than a duffel bag, and once again, like similar devices on Voyager and DS9, the device beamed itself as well as Picard.

Okay, it’s been awhile since I’ve seen Nemesis, but did he actually put a transporter on him, or some kind of targeting signal to tell the Enterprise’s teleporters to grab him…?

683. Curious Cadet - September 28, 2013

@451 TrekkieJan,

After watching the movie again, I have some more supporting evidence for the theories about Khan using Marcus, etc.

First, Khan using the hot button words about family with Kirk indicating that Khan knew all about Kirk, is reinforced by Khan’s reaction on Kronos. Uhura says “Captain stop”, and Khan looks at Kirk somewhat perplexed and surprised and says, “Captain?”. This is obviously something that happened since Khan last saw Kirk as a busted Commander, and changes the game, since Khan was expecting Marcus and the Vengeance.

Kirk later says to Scotty, “I’m pretty sure we are helping him”. Khan was going to take over the Vengeance all along. Kirk just complicated the situation and changed his plans.

Then Marcus flat out lies about the Botany Bay being full of criminals in exile, a statement logically discounted by Spock in Space Seed. Khan likewise lies about what they were doing in the Botany Bay. With so many lies flying around, while there may be some truth in there, there’s no way to prove one over the other.

Marcus also talks like a jilted lover, and emphasizes that Khan is “playing” Kirk, implying what happened to himself.

684. Who cares - September 28, 2013

@682. Watch Nemesis again, Geordi specifically stated that the transporters were out, completely, before Data jumped from Enterprise to the Scimitar, transporting Picard back was entirely contained in the device Data slapped on Picard before saying goodbye.

685. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@678. Cygnus-X1

I think my main problem is the reliance by Bad Robot on increasingly fantastical technology to tell their stories.

I agree with you. And furthermore, it’s flash that doesn’t complement the human drama, but displaces it, which is seriously annoying.

The Trek universe is already so replete with wondrous technology that they really shouldn’t have to keep inventing increasingly fantastical devices in order for their characters to get around.

Even one technological leap – and, to be fair, they’ve put in the groundwork for there to be a surprising advance, due to the post-Narada paranoia, future tech available with the capture of Spock Prime’s Vulcan ship, and the influence of Khan – should be enough for the plot of one movie.

Yes, I know that this is fiction, but it was originally conceived as science fiction, based upon the world as we know it. Characters carrying around a transporter in a duffel bag is too much. I mean, what’s next? All of the characters wearing wrist band transporters?

Star Trek: Torchwood

Anyone, at any moment, can just drop their wrist band and have it beam them to some remote location? Where does it end?

I’m with you. I’m seriously hoping that we have more substance than splash from now on.

686. Curious Cadet - September 28, 2013

@415 Spock/Uhura Admirer,
“I already said before that in this case she was the logical choice, but I also don’t think she’s at all more qualified than Spock”

After watching STID again last night, I did also glean some insight into why it had to be Carol Marcus and McCoy who worked on the torpedo.

You have misremembered the scene. Spock himself acknowledges Scotty would be the best man on the ship for the job, and then recommends Carol Marcus as being more qualified than himself.

So Carol has to be there. McCoy likewise is there for his surgical skills. He even comments on it. She needs someone who can precisely execute her instructions while she does other things. Is it a stretch, sure. Might they have added Uhura? Sure, but then that’s putting a third person at risk unnecessarily, when Carol was already familiar with the technology. Also, Uhura needed to work the communication station, just as she did with Spock on Niburu to ensure they had clear communications ensuring any support they might need from the ship like an emergency beam out.

So both Marcus and McCoy are justified. Uhura is questionable, but as you point out could have been worked into the scene. I’m just not sure what would have been gained considering how brief the scene actually was, and the point of it. Realistically, there would be no reason for Marcus to believe there would be any coding she needed translated, it was a Federation design after all. If they had brought Uhura in at all should Marcus find a problem, it would have been done remotely and after the fact. There’s no reason for her to be there in person.

687. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@683. Curious Cadet

Kirk later says to Scotty, “I’m pretty sure we are helping him”. Khan was going to take over the Vengeance all along. Kirk just complicated the situation and changed his plans.

Or Marcus, when he made up his mind to sacrifice Kirk and the Enterprise, yes.

With so many lies flying around, while there may be some truth in there, there’s no way to prove one over the other.

At least we don’t get a Marcus confession over evil cackles. They’ve both lied. We know this.

Marcus also talks like a jilted lover, and emphasizes that Khan is “playing” Kirk, implying what happened to himself.

This may be the most damning evidence of all. I honestly can’t see that any other scenario makes sense.

1: Khan *had* access to his augments – he put them in torpedoes, he didn’t thaw them out (except, possibly, Harewood. Evidence for? They must have cured cancer by this time. Harewood’s daughter has something uncurable – something out of the realm of hundreds of years of recorded human medicine.)

The only reason for Khan not to thaw the Augments was because he wanted them secreted aboard the Vengeance – he wanted the ship more than he wanted “his family.” Alligator tears and lies.

688. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

PS: Before everyone jumps on me, yes, I’m sure I’m wrong about Harewood.

689. Curious Cadet - September 28, 2013

@687. TrekkieJan,
“They’ve both lied. We know this.”

Yes, but more importantly they lied about the same origin story. Thus the same lie about the torpedoes. Marcus put them into the torpedoes, but Khan designed them for just that purpose knowing Marcus would oblige. Two sides of the same coin.

————————
“The only reason for Khan not to thaw the Augments was because he wanted them secreted aboard the Vengeance – he wanted the ship more than he wanted “his family.”

Well at least equally as much. As I’ve alluded to before, there is no way Khan could have ever moved 72 cryotubes from wherever Marcus has squirreled them away (assuming Khan even knew), and then get them into the Section 31 secret torpedo manufacturing plant and into 72 torpedoes without anyone noticing. It’s absurd on the face of it. Khan designed the torpedoes to house the cryotubes and let Marcus discover it, and do it for him. Then deliver the crew and the Vengeance into his waiting hands. And yes, I do like your earlier idea that it was Khan’s plan to start a war with the Klingons, and thus guiding Marcus the whole way.

————————
“They must have cured cancer by this time. Harewood’s daughter has something uncurable – something out of the realm of hundreds of years of recorded human medicine.”

While this is not impossible, canon has established some incurable diseases still around, Mental illness being chief among them. However, McCoy euthanizes his father by pulling the plug in TFF shortly before a cure was found for his illness. And I’m certain there many mentioned in TNG. So it makes it a bit harder to push that explanation. Though, I can see Khan saying, we really out to wake up this guy who is a weapons expert. In which case, what’s the thought here? Harewood becomes an Al Qaeda type suicide bomber? He is of course the stereotypical ethnicity, so Orci would vehemently deny that intent for sure.

The problem you bring up is of course related to the fact that there is no reason for Harewood to follow through with the bombing once Khan has cured his daughter. The fact Khan is waiting outside suggests Harewood could have his wife and daughter at that moment secreted away somewhere safe from Khan’s harm if that was the continued threat. So coercion is even an unrealistic idea at this point.

690. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@ 689. Curious Cadet

All good points. To reiterate, I am very much enjoying your posts, even if I don’t respond to all of them. Very much agree about the way Kirk is presented, obviously.

I’ve just thought of another bit of evidence. When Kirk dies, one of the two smartest people in the movie immediate sees through the entire game and names the true villain: “Khaaaaaan!”

691. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 28, 2013

Curious Cadet

Your attempt to bully people, including Captain Slow, because they brought up Protomatter in Star Trek 2 as a “made-up exotic substance” analogy to Red Matter in STID is without merit.

Regarding your claim that this has not been brought up here before — THAT IS COMPLETELY FALSE and shows to me that you really haven’t been paying attention to a lot of the discussions here over the years. Gary Makin, Sebastian S, myself and others discussed Protomatter in relation to Red Matter as similar “technobabble ST issue” on this site numerous times. Here is just on example from Sebastian S. from 20 June 2012, and my post from 29 June 2012, respectively:

“The ‘science’ of ST09 was, IMO, no better or worse than most of the ST films. It’s ‘red matter’ black hole devices were no more or less silly than “metaphasic radiation” being a fountain of youth, the Genesis device making planets with ‘proto-matter’, or sling-shotting around the sun to induce time travel. It’s an adventure story, not a Science channel special. I accept it on that basis (and enjoy it!).”

“Not so fast. Remember, the plot devices which caused the Genesis Planet to self destruct was David Marcus’s use of an exotic substance called Protomatter. So right there in Trek II-Trek III, we have a plot device that know one can explain, so that invent a new kind of exotic matter. Just like Red Matter was invented for Trek 2009. Red Matter is the modern Trek equivalent of Protomatter.”

Secondly, you falsely claim this is a straw man argument. That is complete bull-crap. A straw man argument is when you use a “false analogy” in an attempt to discredit you opponent’s opinion. This is in fact a valid analogy — both made up forms of matter, Red Matter and Protomatter, were instrumental in carrying forth the plots of two separate ST movies. You may not like it, but it is a completely valid comparison.

CURIOS CADET,
YOU OWE CAPTAIN SLOW AN APOLOGY.

692. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 28, 2013

Cygnus X-1,

I know you write a lot of material here that purports to show yourself as more of a scientific expert on stuff than some others, but at the end of the day I really don’t find your scientific explanations/criticisms and more valid here than Beagles or others. You could do with a little bit more open-mindedness here, and a little bit less condescension.

To my knowledge, no one here has appointed your the definitive source on this? And as others, including me, have pointed out, your views in regards to problems like this in ST focus almost exclusive on STID, and we all have to keep REMINDING YOU that ST has a long history of technology questions and techno-babble solutions that are not well understood or supported by today’s science.

Unless you can categorically prove that these technologies could never be potentially created hundreds of years from now, the perhaps now might be a good time for you to move onto another topic?

*********************************************************
676. Cygnus-X1 – September 28, 2013
649. Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle – September 27, 2013

—”A black hole is made of matter. If Red Matter is a catalyst that converts ordinary matter to super-dense black hole-like matter, then the size of the black hole will be dependent on BOTH the amount of Red Matter you are using AND the amount of normal matter available in the immediate vicinity which can be converted to super-dense black hole matter.—

But black hole matter and “normal” matter aren’t different species of matter or something. They’re both made of the same stuff: quarks and electrons. The only difference is their density.

If what you mean is that Red Matter somehow acts like a magnet attracting ordinary matter to it, then they should have shown that happening in the movie. But they didn’t.

And even better explanation along your line of reasoning would be that Red Matter somehow attracts dark matter. That would allow them to create a black hole using Red Matter in an area with no visible matter, being that dark matter is vastly more abundant (and invisible) than ordinary matter.

I mean, it would still be ridiculous that ONE DROP of that stuff could attract enough dark matter (or regular matter) to form a black hole. And what would be the mechanism of attraction, anyway? It can’t be gravity, for the reasons I mentioned above. Electromagnetic and nuclear forces are far too weak (and proportional to size) to act across such large distances. And that’s it. Those are all of the fundamental forces in our Universe.

So, now we’re getting into something so exotic that it comes from outside of our Universe? I mean, this is where it jumps the shark. Once you get this far removed from the world as we know it, that you’re assuming different physical properties and laws for the Universe (or for some alternate universe), then you’ve wandered into the realm of fantasy. Why not just have a wizard come and wave his magic wand to create a black hole.

693. Curious Cadet - September 28, 2013

I do have to pat Orci & Kurtzman on the back here though.

Upon re-watching it last night, I saw the connection with speaking to Prime Spock and Spock’s defeat of Khan. Although I would suggest it is still largely unnecessary fan service. I don’t think I’ve seen it spelled out before, but assuming it has, apologies for repeating.

Spock asks how Prime Spock defeated Khan. Then immediately after hanging up, exacts his plan. What he must have been told is about the prefix codes that allows Kirk to cripple Khan’s ship and level the playing field.

Essentially, Kirk stalled for time by negotiating for something Khan wanted, in that case, another “torpedo” — the Genesis device. Khan’s arrogance and fixation on his immediate goal, caused him to miss the deception completely. This allowed Kirk to drop Khan’s shields and damage his ship. For proof of that theory, Khan fell for it again after ‘stranding’ Kirk in the Genesis cave to go back and finish the Enterprise.

In essence Alt Spock did the same thing by applying Prime Spock’s situation to his own. But it wasn’t needed. I would have much rather seen Spock figure this all out on his own. It’s not like it wasn’t obvious, especially to a guy like Spock — the same Spock who figured out Kirk’s whole plan to join forces with Khan and space jump to takeover the Vengeance, without a single word from Kirk; which wasn’t obvious at all, despite Spock’s statement to the contrary.

What does Khan want more than anything in the world? His Family smuggled in live torpedoes. The solution presents itself. But I do appreciate that the writers did expertly tie Prime Spock’s appearance together with Alt Spock’s solution, even if they did leave it to the fans to figure out.

694. Keachick - September 28, 2013

#683 – “First, Khan using the hot button words about family with Kirk indicating that Khan knew all about Kirk, is reinforced by Khan’s reaction on Kronos. Uhura says “Captain stop”, and Khan looks at Kirk somewhat perplexed and surprised and says, “Captain?”. This is obviously something that happened since Khan last saw Kirk as a busted Commander, and changes the game, since Khan was expecting Marcus and the Vengeance.”

Khan used the word “family” because it was not only a hot button for him but also for most other people, which likely included Kirk as well. As for Khan’s perplexed and surprised “Captain?”, I took that to mean that he queried Captain Kirk as he would any captain who what Kirk just tried to do – beat the crap out of him (and fail so miserably). Khan again used the kind of expression when he asked Kirk if Kirk was going to beat him up again. At this stage, Khan was in the brig.

In fact, it was those two scenes that always give me the giggles – I’m not sure why, but it has the same effect on my son when he watches the same scene. Some sort of (subtle) black humour in play here… Other scenes depicting noise, violence, destruction do not have the same effect – far from it.

“Then Marcus flat out lies about the Botany Bay being full of criminals in exile, a statement logically discounted by Spock in Space Seed. Khan likewise lies about what they were doing in the Botany Bay. With so many lies flying around, while there may be some truth in there, there’s no way to prove one over the other.”

What Botany Bay? I do not recall ANYONE at all, not even Spock prime, referring to any Botany Bay. What Space Seed’s Khan did say was they escaped earth. Why would they have needed to escape? The Space Seed episode seemed to define their Khan Noonien Singh and his men as sort of *benign* dictators.

STID’s Khan never indicated what or who he expected might turn up looking for him at Kronos. After all, at this point, he believed that Marcus had already killed all of his crew which is why he took vengeance on London’s Section 31 and on SF HQ. He was genuinely surprised and heartened when he realized the possibility that the Enterprise had all of his 72 torpedoes and none had been used.

Given this new fact, and later having it confirmed that his men were indeed still in their torpedoes as he had left them (safe and undamaged), then lead him to realize another shocking scenario was now in play, which is why Khan asked Kirk as to why the ship was not moving…When Kirk was told that a ship at warp was coming straight for them and it was not from Kronos, what Khan had already realized, became very obvious to Kirk as well. No doubt, the real reason for Marcus’s orders to kill Khan and to fire on Kronos with the new long range, “stealth” torpedoes also became crystal clear in that moment as well. This is why Kirk yelled out the order to have Khan removed to MedBay and have six guards placed around him.

The reason why Kirk later orders Scotty to stun Khan was that, although what Khan had been telling him had validity, his gut feeling/intuition/instinct (call it what you will) lead Kirk to believe that all was not as right, OK, well as it appeared with Khan either. His fears were confirmed when he saw Khan crush Marcus’s skull…in fact, he looked shocked, not quite believing what he had just seen and heard. The same for Carol and Scotty.
* I have to wonder just how benign a genuine dictator can always be if he wants to maintain his power and control.

695. Cygnus-X1 - September 28, 2013

681. Who cares – September 28, 2013

—Yo Cygnus, are you forgetting that Data pulled out an emergency trasporter the size of a button (literally) in Nemesis to save Picard when the transporters on the Enterprise were disabled?—

And Nemesis had even more plot holes and bad science than STID!

696. Cygnus-X1 - September 28, 2013

691. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – September 28, 2013

—At the end of the day I really don’t find your scientific explanations/criticisms and more valid here than Beagles or others. You could do with a little bit more open-mindedness here, and a little bit less condescension.—

Well, I certainly did not intend any condescension toward Beagle or anyone else by my scientific comments. I appreciated Beagles’ comments and ideas and expanded on them in my response.

This is pretty much the way that I converse normally. I’m not intending to put anyone down when I’m talking about a scientific issue. If you find it condescending, I’m sorry. Perhaps we could agree to live and let live.

697. Cervantes - September 28, 2013

Star Trek storylines…full of scientific inaccuracies and improbabilites, no matter *which* ‘timeline’…

Some worse than others, and some plainly nonsensical. But I hope the current writers will manage to keep things from getting *too* ridiculous in the next voyage.

698. Marja - September 28, 2013

654. Captain Slow, “Everyone complains about red matter but ignores proto matter which to me is one of the most scientifically ridiculous things in any of the ST movies.” Yes, I recall fans in 1982 ridiculing the concept of “protomatter.”

Your 673 – thanks for that link! NERD ALERT That was fascinating! I think I see where more of the budget went … but I also think this proves Abrams knows nerds – he’s one himself I think – and knows they will have a good time looking over all the details he puts in the background of his films.

Now, to me, it looks as though there is a Neutral Zone between the Federation [in blue] and … the Klingon Empire [in red]? There was also an interesting scroll at the bottom of the big screen saying “Organian Peace Treaty broken ….” The frames move by pretty fast, and I paused several times, but for a fast-moving moment in the film, the detail was amazing. Anyone notice that Kronos has a circle diagrammed in exactly the place the SWars Death Star had that “crater”? JJ YOU BETTER PUT SOME TREK IN YOUR SWars!

699. Curious Cadet - September 28, 2013

@694. Cygnus-X1,
“And Nemesis had even more plot holes and bad science than STID!”

So that’s progress, no?

You know, I have to think that things like the emergency site-to-site transporter must be thought by the producers at the time that fans will find them so cool. Granted it got them out of a very deep plot hole they dug themselves into, but still — cool!

700. Marja - September 28, 2013

674 TrekkieJan, “On a more serious note, I think there are some people who never have to resort to physically fighting. They have an air, a natural authority. Chris Pike is that kind of person, in my opinion. (As was Captain Robau from 09.) There’s a toughness and a kindness but a stern, limit to nonsense, too.”

Yep. This Pike has the true air of a senior officer. A great senior officer. I can’t imagine him brawling unless people in proximity were in danger – but he’d be quite efficient about it. THIS IS WHY I MISS PIKE. If only the films hadn’t rushed Kirk’s promotion. Pike and Kirk as CO and XO second film, crisis, crisis solved, Kirk gets another commendation and promotion from CDR to CAPT. Third film, Kirk is more seasoned and a cooler-headed CO who can strategize better.

675, Whocares, I was referring to Greenwood’s Pike. I don’t much care for TOS Pike in “Menagerie,” except for his heroism [evidenced by his incapacitation] just before his terrible injuries.

701. Marja - September 28, 2013

676, Cygnus, “An even better explanation along your line of reasoning would be that Red Matter somehow attracts dark matter. That would allow them to create a black hole using Red Matter in an area with no visible matter, being that dark matter is vastly more abundant (and invisible) than ordinary matter.”

Excellent – I love your idea. Who knows, I understand Orci researched current thinking about black holes [he mentioned reading some things], and O&K probably wrote some of the true stuff into the script, but OOPS more elision in the shooting script.

679 Curious, I thought those picket-sized things they arranged in a triangle in TNG were [beware bad Trek language] some sort of transporter enhancer.

680, Curious,Yecch, yes, I agree. I don’t like them characterizing Kirk that way. I hope they stop portraying him as a horndog in the next movie OH YEAH I GUESS HE’LL FALL IN LOVE WITH CAROL

Your 683 -“Marcus also talks like a jilted lover, and emphasizes that Khan is “playing” Kirk, implying what happened to himself.” Interesting perspective. I thought he was being very patronizing to Kirk! But this makes a lot of sense. Marcus appears very weary in this scene too, as if he’s spent some time condemning himself about “being played.”

Your 686 – I was the one who made up a scenario wherein Uhura would help Carol with the torpedo. It involved the torpedo’s safeties being coded using ancient language, which Uhura could help Carol decipher to disarm the thing. Then Marcus jumped in with 21st-century numerical coding technology and the discussion veered off into Uhura being added to the scene in the movie, not Uhura and Carol in a hypothetical scene.

I still think the “surgeon’s hands” requirement was silly [engineers also have a very delicate touch] since Carol just wanted him to pull some wire or something … it was a way to use McCoy in a scene, and while I like him and his dialogue there, I see no reason for Enterprise to risk their chief surgeon’s hands in disarming a torpedo. Whut?

702. Marja - September 28, 2013

688 TrekkieJan, but a great idea! Harewood, an Augment, makes his peace with ordinary human ways, falls in love, has a child, and plants his roots more firmly in a world that was supposed to be temporary for him. He weeps for this loss as he executes his order. Only prob is he doesn’t recognize Khan … but that can be explained too [grin]… the magical facial reconstruction theory :)

689 Curious, “Well at least equally as much. As I’ve alluded to before, there is no way Khan could have ever moved 72 cryotubes from wherever Marcus has squirreled them away (assuming Khan even knew), and then get them into the Section 31 secret torpedo manufacturing plant and into 72 torpedoes without anyone noticing. It’s absurd on the face of it.”

Indeed, I’ve thought this was a whopper since I figured out that part of the plot.

Re: incurable disease, there could have been some sort of alien virus that’s incurable when it infects humans … or as someone here pointed out, it could’ve started with some degradation of Augment DNA.

703. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@702. Marja
688 TrekkieJan, but a great idea! Harewood, an Augment, makes his peace with ordinary human ways, falls in love, has a child, and plants his roots more firmly in a world that was supposed to be temporary for him. He weeps for this loss as he executes his order. Only prob is he doesn’t recognize Khan … but that can be explained too [grin]… the magical facial reconstruction theory :)
hahaha at the magical facial reconstruction! I guess Harewood does say, “Who are you?” when he first sees Khan?
That was beautifully put. Thank you for gracing us with it!
*You* need to keep writing.

689 Curious, “Well at least equally as much. As I’ve alluded to before, there is no way Khan could have ever moved 72 cryotubes from wherever Marcus has squirreled them away (assuming Khan even knew), and then get them into the Section 31 secret torpedo manufacturing plant and into 72 torpedoes without anyone noticing. It’s absurd on the face of it.”

Indeed, I’ve thought this was a whopper since I figured out that part of the plot.

I think this has to go back to Khan gaining Marcus’ trust at some point, with the ability to move around the secret organization at will. Probably the entire switch was performed underground in Section 31 – and very likely the Augments were kept there.

Again, very possibly a reason to destroy that building in particular – all the records and evidence were there.

Maybe the Khan graphic novel will shed some light.

704. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@691. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!!
MJ, I know it’s hard for you, but please try not to bully. We’re all having a fairly pleasant discussion and no-one has been rude to Captain Slow or anyone else that I’ve seen (with the usual possible exception of you.)

I know you will now bully me for interacting with you – you always do, so I will not further reply to you. Just so you know. I always enjoy this board a lot more when I completely ignore you.

Folks, if this gets me banned, I truly enjoyed this – I genuinely thank everyone who took the time to answer my questions politely and discuss things. You’ve been great.

705. Cygnus-X1 - September 28, 2013

699. Curious Cadet – September 28, 2013

ST’09 and STID were both better movies than Nemesis, Generations and STV, the last two of which I find totally unwatchable.

—You know, I have to think that things like the emergency site-to-site transporter must be thought by the producers at the time that fans will find them so cool. Granted it got them out of a very deep plot hole they dug themselves into, but still — cool!—

Well, sure, it’d be cool to HAVE one! It’d be cool to have the ring from LOTR, too! But only if it didn’t mess you up and corrupt you when you used it.

706. Cygnus-X1 - September 28, 2013

704. TrekkieJan – September 28, 2013

He really does hector quite a bit.

707. Curious Cadet - September 28, 2013

@703. TrekkieJan,
“Maybe the Khan graphic novel will shed some light.”

Good point. It’s six issues which appears to launch the Botany Bay in issue #3. It virtually has to explain what Khan actually did during his year at Section 31, and how he managed to do everything he claims to do in STID.

Unfortunately, it will be February or March before we get all those details. And I presume it will follow Orci’s intent that Khan actually was the victim he claims to be, and sheds his crocodile tears over, thus driving him to terrorism.

708. Dave H - September 28, 2013

TrekieJan,

I think you are way off base. MJ was actually defending Captain Slow from being bullied by Curious Cadet. I think you are trying to unnecessarily escalate this to some kind of argument. MJ defended Captain Slow from Curios Cadet’s accusations of using strawman arguments, and the obnoxious tone by Curious Cadet that Captain Slow didn’t have a clue regarding bring up protomatter (and claiming falsely that no one here had ever brought that up before).

And now you are trying to make this into some kind of dispute? I don’t get what you are trying to do here?

You should have just let MJ make his valid and just defense of Captain Slow, ignored it, and went about your day.

709. Cygnus-X1 - September 28, 2013

654. Captain Slow – September 28, 2013

—Everyone complains about red matter but ignores proto matter which to me is one of the most scientifically ridiculous things in any of the ST movies. Red matter was matter that was red. Proto matter doesn’t even make sense as a name because it means “before matter” and that has nothing to do with making a planet grow old and blow up.—

You raise an interesting comparison.

First, just a bit on what “proto matter” could mean…

If Inflationary Cosmology is correct, as the majority of top cosmologists believe it likely is, then matter basically crystalized out of an energy field (“the inflaton field”) that filled our infant universe during its earliest stage. “Proto matter,” then, could be a form of matter existing stably in a stage of transition between the inflaton energy and matter as we know it. Don’t ask me how Carol Marcus would have made this stuff or where she could have found it. It’s extremely fantastical stuff. However…

The crucial difference between the Proto Matter concept in TWOK and the Red Matter concept in ST’09, is that Proto Matter was emblematic and directly in service of one of the movie’s themes. In other words, Nick Meyer (or the writer before him) came up with the concept of Proto Matter as a technology to criticize and caution against. If you recall McCoy’s anxious warning about it, “According to myth, the Earth was created in six days. Now, watch out! Here comes Genesis! We’ll do it for you in six minutes!”

Proto Matter and the Genesis Device were at the center of the movie’s “Aging/Youthfulness” theme. Yes, Proto Matter is a fantastical contrivance, but it inspires a sort of thought experiment that becomes the plot of the movie: What if you could have such a device? What would be the ramifications?

The main point is that the Proto Matter premise inspires the story and one of its themes in TWOK. Contrastingly, the Red Matter concept in STID is nothing more than a plot device (a deus ex machina) used repeatedly to accomplish the plot points that the writers wanted to accomplish: (1) create a portal to the Alternate Universe; (2) destroy Vulcan; (3) create a dangerous space-maelstrom threatening the Enterprise and the Narada for the climax of the movie.

710. Dave H - September 28, 2013

See above, TrekieJan,

Cygnus X-1, who I don’t always see eye-to-eye with, treated Captain Slow’s comments on protomatter with politeness and positive discord. This is completely unlike the “blowing off” post that Curious Cadet wrote to Captain Slow, of which MJ legitimately had some issues with.

Cygnus, I like your new tone — you are starting to win me over here with what seems to be a more genuine attempt to be fair, balanced and positive. Thanks!

711. Cygnus-X1 - September 28, 2013

P.S.

And people (such as myself) tend to forgive fantastical contrivances if they’re in service of a greater meaning and purpose in the story. The ring in LOTR is another example of this. The point is not this magical device that makes you invisible; the point is the corruption that happens when people lust after power, and the ring inspires that theme throughout the trilogy.

712. Cygnus-X1 - September 28, 2013

P.P.S.

Not to equate sci-fi with fantasy. Star Trek movies, being premised upon a future version of the world we know, should take care to remain grounded in it.

713. TUP - September 28, 2013

This Kirk wasnt born in Iowa .
Different timeline,different unfolding of events .

No, this is the exact same universe until the attack on the kelvin. Thus why was Winona in labour on that ship when Kirk was born in Iowa?

714. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

@708. Dave H

I think you are way off base. MJ was actually defending Captain Slow from being bullied by Curious Cadet.

I’m sorry – I don’t mean to be disagreeable but I saw no bullying on Curious Cadet’s part.

It’s very hard to read tone into writing. I saw nothing except a polite request to stop with straw man arguments (and I agree that was one. ymmv)

I think you are trying to unnecessarily escalate this to some kind of argument.

Believe me, that is the last thing I want. It’s been such a sharing, nice discussion and I’ve enjoyed practically every post the last few days. It’s been great to be back and I’m not in a hurry to leave again.

I understand there may be some history here and I’m not saying people don’t have reasons for being a little jittery. MJ has driven me off this board (my choice) twice, so I get it. But I was reading every post and I did not see bullying on Curious Cadet’s part.

And now you are trying to make this into some kind of dispute? I don’t get what you are trying to do here?

Stand up for someone who’s stood up for me at least once in this thread?

You should have just let MJ make his valid and just defense of Captain Slow, ignored it, and went about your day.

Did I miss something? When did MJ become the Board Prosecutor? Is there some reason Captain Slow is unable to defend himself? (I’ve enjoyed his posts too, by the way.)

If I am in error, I will except that and apologize.

715. TrekkieJan - September 28, 2013

*accept, not except – sorry, tired.

716. MJB - September 28, 2013

713. TUP

Stressful situations, like your starship getting blown up, can induce labor. Once can assume that little jimmy was born earlier than term. If they weren’t attacked then I would bet Kirk would have been born in Iowa at a later date.

717. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 28, 2013

@Curious 686

@415 Spock/Uhura Admirer,
“I already said before that in this case she was the logical choice, but I also don’t think she’s at all more qualified than Spock”
After watching STID again last night, I did also glean some insight into why it had to be Carol Marcus and McCoy who worked on the torpedo.
You have misremembered the scene. Spock himself acknowledges Scotty would be the best man on the ship for the job, and then recommends Carol Marcus as being more qualified than himself.

I don’t think I misremembered a scene because I don’t recall mentioning a specific scene there. What I recall saying was that because Carol had access to her father’s research and records and the torpedoes that it made sense for it to be her. That makes her more “informed” about the torpedoes, which I think means she’d have an easier time at working with them. That does not make her more qualified than Spock in general. I’m sorry, but you could never make me believe that. I see him as the best Science officer not only on that ship but probably in Starfleet period. That’s not going to change.

I do believe that he and Bones would have been successful if she had not been there, or Scotty, who wanted to open them up himself anyway, but Kirk wouldn’t let him. Spock is logical, though, so based off of the situation, Carol was the logical choice, but she was not the only choice. That’s all I was saying. I believe that’s all he was really saying too.

Did he actually say that she was more qualified than him as a Science Officer, or that she was better suited for that specific task (basically because she had previously worked with those specific torpedoes and/or their schematics before)? I think it’s the latter that was the message based on context, but I would have to ask you for the exact wording. Still, you never know how they are rewriting and changing things around from movie to movie… And what I believe is of no consequence on that one, so…

So Carol has to be there. McCoy likewise is there for his surgical skills. He even comments on it. She needs someone who can precisely execute her instructions while she does other things. Is it a stretch, sure.

No, she didn’t have to be there, but she made the most sense to help out seeing as she was available and had prior access to those specific torpedoes. I already mentioned the same thing about McCoy and his surgical skills, so I agree with you on that. However, there were no real instructions to carry out. He basically got his arm stuck and she fumbled with wires and the torpedo opened. McCoy actually could have been anybody the way that scene played out.

Might they have added Uhura? Sure, but then that’s putting a third person at risk unnecessarily, when Carol was already familiar with the technology. Also, Uhura needed to work the communication station, just as she did with Spock on Niburu to ensure they had clear communications ensuring any support they might need from the ship like an emergency beam out.

Well, this is kind of a moot point to me because the scenario that Marja outlined wasn’t the case, as I mentioned before. Again, however, if it were the case, then Uhura would have been necessary and whoever her second in command was could have briefly covered her comm station duties.

So both Marcus and McCoy are justified. Uhura is questionable, but as you point out could have been worked into the scene. I’m just not sure what would have been gained considering how brief the scene actually was, and the point of it. Realistically, there would be no reason for Marcus to believe there would be any coding she needed translated, it was a Federation design after all. If they had brought Uhura in at all should Marcus find a problem, it would have been done remotely and after the fact. There’s no reason for her to be there in person.

Once again, at least to me, it depends on how the scene is set up. In order to do something remotely, you have to have remote access. And at that point, even Carol was just kind of figuring out what to do…

So if Uhura had been needed on the planet with Carol and McCoy, then remote access would not have been an option, namely because even in this scenario Carol wasn’t able to remotely open the torpedo, so then how would Uhura have been able to remotely work on any decoding unless they were hacking it?

And if they were hacking it to have remote access, then no one should have been at risk because then Carol or Uhura (or Spock) could have remotely opened it once they hacked in, and McCoy wouldn’t have been needed. These 2 things go hand-in-hand to me… Anyway, this part is all speculative at this point about a scenario that wasn’t even the case. And I don’t want to spend too much time on an “if” scenario… I’m glad you enjoyed your rewatch.

718. Red Shirt Diaries - September 28, 2013

Trekkie Jan,

I also thought your post on MJ was unprovoked and unnecessary. It looks to me like, whether you agree with him or not, he was simply trying to speak out against what he perceived was some bullying here by another poster against another poster, with you not even being involved.

And then you bring up what looks like are a bunch of past grudges you apparently have with him? I did not understand those remarks at all where you got in your digs about how he would now start bullying you, and how you were already planning on ingorning him when he started this future negativity against you? What was that about? Are you trying to bait him or something?

Chill out, or perhaps get some therapy, OK? :-)

719. boborci - September 28, 2013

716 mjn

yup

720. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - September 28, 2013

@718

Yea, cheap shot on MJ by TrekkieJan.

:-(

721. Captain Slow - September 28, 2013

MJ, I don’t think that Curious Cadet needs to apologize. He may have disagreed with me but it was in a pretty civil way. I wasn’t offended.

@ 698 Marja

My favorite easter egg on there was the one about mysterious wreckage being found on Galorndon Core. Of course that also raises the question of how they could know that since The Enemy established that Galorndon Core was in the Romulan neutral zone.

722. Tup - September 29, 2013

If bob intended for Kirk to be born early due to the attack that was never established. On the contrary George seemed to know she was in labour before the attack and had a medical shuttle waiting for her.

Easy to backtrack after the fact. Seems like lazy writing to me.

723. TrekkieJan - September 29, 2013

@718 Red Shirt Diaries, 720 Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle, Dave H
You guys are absolutely right. I’ve been too thin-skinned in the past with certain flamboyant personalities – it’s limited my enjoyment of a board that’s actually a pretty great place. I’ve probably been posting here longer than a lot of currently active people – since well before 09 came out. I’ve supported the board by buying with the links here… basically, although I have as much right to insert myself into someone else’s conflict as anyone here, I shouldn’t not have as Curious Cadet is admirably capable of defending himself. I will chillax. MJ, I have no desire to interact with you after this, but I apologize.

724. Curious Cadet - September 29, 2013

@721. Captain Slow – September 28, 2013
“He may have disagreed with me but it was in a pretty civil way.”

Did I mention I got a chuckle out of imagining baby Spock popping the hood on the torpedo and crawling over to the giant plastic cactus? Ha!

Sometimes we unfortunately only focus on the negatives, and for that I am sorry.

725. TrekkieJan - September 29, 2013

Bikini-gate – an explanation

Miley Cyrus
Good choice or bad choice, it was her choice.

Did Alive Eve ask to pose in her undies? Possibly. But here’s the thing: everything on a movie is time and money. Time for the shot had to be budgeted – her costume – such as it was – had to be budgeted. And I’m guessing, from what (little) I know of costuming, that if was custom-made, it was probably one of the more expensive costumes in the movie, certainly in terms of fittings needed. (It probably wasn’t custom-made.)

If Alice wanted this scene to boost her career, the filmmakers were extremely obliging with their time and money.

The picture is used by the articles complaining about this.

Yes, because the picture illustrates what’s wrong. We can clearly see where the camera’s eye line is – and where the actress is looking. She’s looking into Kirk’s eyes – supposedly. He’s looking into hers.

That means this is not his view of her. It’s not a character revealing shot – it actually takes us away from the character interaction for a lingering moment in a movie that didn’t spare an extra second on character (or on explaining its complex plot.) It’s what my kids call fan service.

Kirk was shown in his undies.

Yes, he was. Did the camera dip low and linger on his semi-undressed state? Then it’s not the same thing.

So? Alive Eve didn’t mind! Neither do I!

So, it’s not smart, it’s not politically correct, it makes a significant number of viewers uncomfortable, but mainly it detracts from the story and the seriousness of the subject matter.

And no, I’m not simply uptight. I had some gorgeous people in the two movies I co-produced too and I didn’t try to hide that fact:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAngelbase/videos
(Note: I didn’t say they were *good* movies.)

726. Curious Cadet - September 29, 2013

@722. Tup,
“If bob intended for Kirk to be born early due to the attack that was never established. On the contrary George seemed to know she was in labour before the attack and had a medical shuttle waiting for her”

Well, it’s established by canon in Enterprise that Prime Kirk was born March 22, 2233. Alt Kirk was born January 4, 2233. So he’s at least two and a half months premature, assuming Prime Kirk came to term to begin with.

The novelization states that Winona Kirk was given an inhibitor that would help slow the birth of James until the Kelvin’s return to Earth. However, the impacts to the ship by the Narada’s attack cause her to go into early labor. Now you can say that Orci is relying on Foster, or that Foster is adapting an earlier draft of the script.

Either way, it’s clear a very plausible explanation is that Winona only being presumably just over six pregnant was likely on her way home with almost three months to spare, and started to go into labor, which found her in sick bay — all of which could have easily happened in the Prime universe. If not for Nero’s incursion the inhibitor would have worked and Winona would have made it home to Iowa, and Kirk would have been born there.

727. dmduncan - September 29, 2013

689 Curious Cadet

Well at least equally as much. As I’ve alluded to before, there is no way Khan could have ever moved 72 cryotubes from wherever Marcus has squirreled them away (assuming Khan even knew), and then get them into the Section 31 secret torpedo manufacturing plant and into 72 torpedoes without anyone noticing. It’s absurd on the face of it.

***

No way? Never confuse failure of imagination with failure of possibility.

Khan performs his trick with the aid of compartmentalization. All we really have to believe is that Khan has managed to hack his way out of whatever compartmentalization he is sure to be in, without anyone knowing it.

Khan secretly designs replacement cryotubes that fit the torpedoes he is designing. Whoever is in charge of the augments gets new tubes for a transfer of the bodies. Manufacturing and augment storage people all see the same thing: orders to build new tubes and replace the old ones coming from beyond their compartment, fully and properly authorized.

Once they are in the new tubes, Khan uses the same trick to have the tubes loaded into the torpedoes by people who then have no idea what is in the tubes, and are told they contain the warheads.

Compartmentalization—one hand not knowing what the other is doing—is a weakness that Khan uses to achieve his goal without having to load anything himself.

Each department is told something different about why things are changing. The orders are always properly authorized AND plausible. The old cryotubes are below specs. The bodies are going to be transferred to another facility and need to be put at location X. The new warheads are ready to be loaded and have to be picked up from location X.

728. Louie - September 29, 2013

Roberto Orci is an accomplished screenwriter. (GASP!)

Roberto Orci has a longer list of successes and accomplishments. (HOW DARE YOU?)

Was STID great? No. It was just good, and that is my opinion. I also felt that without the TWOK elements that it could have been better had it just established the protagonist as a Section 31 agent having become a terrorist. It does make me wonder how much of this script had final approval by the studio execs who NEVER stand by on a project without offering their sage advice. Keep in mind that a screenwriter like Orci cannot say much if he wishes continued work. You have to smile and say all is right with the world, and then take the beatings when the movie fails.

However, Orci is confusing. Just when I want to give him the benefit of the doubt along comes this metaphysical reference to his connection to Star Trek. I think it best that he just lays low for a while and make the best of “Sleepy Hollow” which is off to a great start, and then work on a great script for Star Trek III to prove that he has listened to the fans.

Like it or not, he is going to write it and the pressure is his to bare.

729. Curious Cadet - September 29, 2013

@725. TrekkieJan,
” She’s looking into Kirk’s eyes – supposedly. He’s looking into hers.”

In re-watching this, I can assure you while Kirk was looking into her eyes, they started with a lascivious gander at her body, and went back to the same gaze after he was admonished to turn around again.

730. MJB - September 29, 2013

722. Tup

I don’t think it’s lazy writing….when I first saw that scene, I filled in the blanks subconsciously because I’ve seen that plot device many times before in movies or TV shows where labor is induced early by events like your home, automobile, starship, etc. under attack or a similar stressful situation. Sure, Bob Orci & Friends could have written & filmed a 2 minute scene to establish that James isn’t due for another 2 months, but I don’t think it would have been necessary.

731. Curious Cadet - September 29, 2013

@727. dmduncan,
“No way? Never confuse failure of imagination with failure of possibility.”

Point taken. Thank you for elucidating the possibilities. Especially to never underestimate the bureaucracy of the military.

————————
“Khan secretly designs replacement cryotubes that fit the torpedoes he is designing. Whoever is in charge of the augments gets new tubes for a transfer of the bodies. Manufacturing and augment storage people all see the same thing: orders to build new tubes and replace the old ones coming from beyond their compartment, fully and properly authorized.”

I wonder how many ‘GX1233 stroke 45B’ forms in triplicate Khan had to fill out for this part of the plan alone …

Unfortunately we know THIS scenario could never have happened in the movie, as McCoy and Marcus state conclusively that the cryotubes in the torpedoes are in fact 300 years old, so not only are they the originals, but they have windows through which to see the faces of the bodies, likely to raise some questions. And of course the tubes are inserted into the fuel compartment (effectively rendering the torpedoes short range?), but I suppose that doesn’t rule out them being understood as some sort of additional payload either.

Bureaucracy aside, I find it difficult to believe anything could happen with the 72 cryotubes that Marcus was not immediately notified about. Whether or not one accepts that the John Harrison identity was created to hide his true identity from even Section 31 agents (which I suspect is the case), I have to believe that the 72 cryotubes would be kept under the highest security reporting only to Marcus. Now this doesn’t preclude Khan gaining the loyalty of whatever underling was guarding the tubes (as he did with McGivers — who knows perhaps in this timeline McGivers works for Section 31), nor that he wasn’t coercing such a person into cooperating, as we more or less saw him do with Harewood (I still don’t know why Harewood would go through with it if his family was safe and sound and he knew exactly where Khan — so I have to believe Khan told him his daughter and wife would not live to see him come home if he did not blow up the office).

TANGENT: That said, I also don’t understand why the device could not be set up on a timer giving Harewood the opportunity to escape — say a water dissolvable bag he could drop in the toilet.

So you are correct, there are many possibilities, none of them simple of course. But neither are my alternate explanations for Khan’s actions. This is why I’m looking forward to how Orci hopefully decides to explain it in the IDW Khan series.

732. TrekkieJan - September 29, 2013

729. Curious Cadet
In re-watching this, I can assure you while Kirk was looking into her eyes, they started with a lascivious gander at her body, and went back to the same gaze after he was admonished to turn around again.

I guess I do need to rewatch. :)

733. Cygnus-X1 - September 29, 2013

———————————-Scum and Villainy———————————-

Peter Weller’s performance in STID has been largely taken for granted. I found him quite effective, and, as one reviewer said, Weller had just the right amount of a**hole in his tone when he called Kirk, “son.” As many reviewers have also said, however, STID comes across confused with regard to who is the villain of the movie. Having two villains in this case didn’t work well as they both sort of diluted each other.

As we are meant to relate to, and sympathize with, both of the movie’s villains—Adm. Marcus trying to protect Humanity from the Klingons at the expense of some dangerous frozen criminal psychopaths; and Khan shedding tears over his “family,” i.e. his 72 frozen criminal psychopath buddies—we are ultimately left confused as to what theme or moral lesson is being put forth and illustrated vis-a-vis the the bad guys in the movie.

If Marcus is the main villain and his role is to illustrate the moral that it’s wrong go outside of the law and to abuse people, even evil dangerous psychopaths like Khan and his buddies, and even for the purposes of protecting humanity from a mortal threat, then that lesson is weakened by spending so much of the movie’s time showing us just how dangerous and treacherous Khan really is. By the end of the movie, we are not sympathizing with Khan and against Marcus for having abused him and his buddies. Khan is obviously an incredibly dangerous menace whom we would rather see dead.

However, if the lesson is something along the lines of “once a deceitful dangerous psychopath, always a deceitful dangerous psychopath,” then that lesson is weakened by the movie’s indictment of Adm. Marcus as a ruthless military leader operating outside of the law and lacking respect for certain fundamental human rights. Marcus should never have thought that he could control Khan, and the issue here is Marcus’ hubris.

So, what’s the moral of the story here? That people will do anything for their “family?” Maybe, but that recurring theme in the movie seems to lack a moral valence. Are we being told “It’s OK to do anything for your family, regardless of circumstance?” If that’s the message of the movie, then neither Adm. Marcus nor Khan is really the bad guy, because they’re both justified in their actions. On the other hand, if the message is that, “It’s NOT OK to do anything for your family and there are moral lines you shouldn’t cross no matter what,” then both Khan and Adm. Marcus are equally villainous, but since they’re on opposite sides of the movie’s conflict, we are again left confused.

Or, if one of the two men is supposed to be the main bad guy, and the other a lesser bad guy, then which is which? But there’s no indication in the movie that this is the moral, anyway, because there is never a moment when the movie’s protagonist (Kirk) shows us, either by his words or his actions, that the two bad guys on opposite sides of the story’s conflict both have the wrong idea. So, again, we are left without a clear villain, without a clear, powerful main theme, and without a real “point” to the movie.

734. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 29, 2013

TrekkieJan,

Wow!!!

No, I am not going to react to your defamatory posts against me here in the past day with a bunch or nasty retorts as you have predicted I will do.

In fact, as you are obviously upset with me for past exchanges — and I’ll be honest with you, I don’t really recall these — I offer you an apology for any unintentional malice that you perceive that I caused you here.

Best, MJ

735. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 29, 2013

@696 / Cygnus X-1

Thanks for the explanation. We are good.

The only major thing that I really disagree with you on at this point is that you go out of your play to present lengthy reasons why plot contrivances in other Star Trek movie should be accepted, but you won’t apply the same sort of thinking to plot contrivances in STID. I know you will not agree with my opinion here of what you are doing on this — but my opinion here is that your are consistently applying a double standard to your arguments.

So, the impression, right or wrong, that I get here from reading many of your posts in this interesting discussion, is that you give all sorts of wiggle room to older Trek movie plots, but for STID you kind of just assume that Orci, JJ and company were just dumb asses who just threw stuff into the movie without thinking about it….and if that is really what you think, why not just be direct about it and come out and say it? Be proud and fully honest of what you think of STID.

736. tUP - September 29, 2013

Weller was the star of the movie. Tremendous performance.

The issues with the movie all come back to their decision to use Khan. Bad idea. Bad execution.

737. Keachick - September 29, 2013

Wow. Some real retconning (rewriting) of STID going on here.

I just don’t know where to begin or whether I should be really be bothered.

How does it feel, Bob Orci, to have your story seemingly so misunderstood and then rewritten?

Actually, it was clearly stated that Carol Marcus had expertise in weapons technology. Spock is the Science Officer, which covers a broad field of the sciences and technologies. Yes, he no doubt had some know-how as to the new torpedoes, using what past knowledge he had of weaponry, but Carol Marcus was more qualified. Fact.

When Carol introduced herself to Kirk and Spock on the shuttlecraft, what we heard was Spock’s own hubris (or is vulcanubris?) when he queried her assignment. Spock seemed to think that now he was back at First Officer, that Kirk and the Enterprise might not need anyone else as qualified or better qualified than Spock. At least Khan had the grace and honesty to say what he believed about himself – ie he was better at everything. Spock, at times, could be an insufferable snot in both universes. This was one of those occasions.

As for the rest – DUH!!!!!

738. Curious Cadet - September 29, 2013

@733 Cygnus-X1,

The answer is in the ultimate outcome for Khan and Marcus, and summed up in Kirk’s speech at the end.

Marcus ended up dead. Khan ended up back in the deep freeze. Their actions crossed the line.

Kirk states: “There will always be those who mean to do us harm. To stop them, we risk awakening the same evil within ourselves. Our first instinct is to seek revenge when those we love are taken from us. But that’s not who we are. ”

So Khan is “one of us”, in that he is the dark side of our humanity, literally awakened, and seeking revenge. And once awakened, quickly gets out of hand. Kirk mirrors that, as does Spock, and one could argue that ultimately Marcus was doing that too; all going after Khan in the end. Kirk and Spock managed to stop short of doing anything that couldn’t be undone, and thus were spared.

Harewood is the only ambiguous one in the movie. He’s dead, along with 42 innocent victims in and around the Archive by his own hand. But his daughter is alive and will live on — though she will have to live with what her father did to achieve this for the rest of her life, as will his wife. His is the only stereotypical terrorist act, and he is the one who most resembles a stereotypical terrorist. Ironic considering Orci’s stated intent. I suppose he avoids being demonized because he does it for “family”, whereas Khan is unredeemable in the end, and seems to kill people just for kicks. I suppose we understand why Harewood does what he does even if we don’t agree with it, and ultimately he creates a mess by doing it, so I think there’s also a clear moral to that story as well having to do with sacrifice.

Good sacrifice is rewarded: Spock is willing to sacrifice himself and is saved by Kirk. Uhura is willing to sacrifice herself and is saved by Khan. Kirk sacrifices himself and is resurrected, thanks to Spock and Uhura … ah the circle is complete.

Interesting to note: Kirk breaks the rules to save Spock, and the important debate around the Prime Directive is glossed over. But most in the audience will probably agree saving the culture was more important than influencing their development, and not worth sacrificing his friend Spock for; not realizing that the very same issue is at the core of most modern terrorist actions.

739. Keachick - September 29, 2013

As for any lasciviousness, in your own minds, that is where it lies…

740. boborci - September 29, 2013

722. Sorry to pop your bubble. We intended the very logic I said yup to. In your mind, we would have to write the unrealistic version. You apparently want characters to say, “by god! This child is premature and should be born Iowa! But turbulence has induced early labor!”

When someone says “lazy writing” my first thought is “lazy viewer” who has to have everything spelled out for them, while simultaneously complaining that the movie us not mentally challenging.

741. MJB - September 29, 2013

740. Boborci

I’ve seen the movie 6 times and I pickup new things on each viewing. To this viewer, that is a successful movie. ST09 & STID hold up to repeat viewing. I expect the same with Star Trek 3. Make it so!

742. TrekMadeMeFat - September 29, 2013

“Lazy Viewer” is an excellent description of a recurring problem within the fanbase. I cringe every time someone says, “Would you please slow these movies down”.

743. TrekkieJan - September 29, 2013

734. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!!
No, I am not going to react to your defamatory posts against me here in the past day with a bunch or nasty retorts as you have predicted I will do.

I feel very silly now, but I really was upset all day, afraid you would. I didn’t think you’d remember, and I’m sure it was in fun at the time, and I took it too seriously. Thank you, that was very kind, and I apologize again, too.

744. Keachick - September 29, 2013

Khan had been genetically engineered to have what could be described as the “pitbull gene”. What is known about pitbull dogs is that many have been specifically bred to manifest the killing gene in much more dangerous way that would be found in most other dogs. People who engage in dog fighting deliberately accentuate that vicious, almost unstoppable “pitbull killer” instinct by allowing only the most vicious and strongest of dogs to breed. These dog fighter pitbulls are treated harshly from birth by their owners. This means that, unfortunately, most of these dogs are not able to live in an ordinary environment because their mauling/killer instincts have been activated and cannot be switched off, no matter how good the re-training and non-violent the environment. These dogs get “put to sleep”.

However, if you take a pitbull puppy, it is possible to treat it in such a way as to not activate that pitbull killer gene expression. These puppies require much more careful and gentle handling than does almost any other puppy.

OK – my point is that Khan was genetically designed to not only be stronger and more intelligent, but also, or as a result, have a tendency to be extremely violent and cruel as well. In many ways, Kirk’s reasonable and lawful handling of Khan allowed the more intelligent and more reasonable side of Khan to manifest. However, like the pitbull, could he be trusted in every situation? Not really – which is why Kirk told Scotty to stun him, despite Khan actually being helpful to Kirk (and the Enterprise) and not actually giving Kirk any genuine cause not to believe what Khan was telling him.

Khan never lied at all in the movie.

The real question that does come to mind here – if Scotty had not stunned Khan, would Khan have necessarily been as cruel as he was shown to be? Obviously, Khan had a major beef with Marcus, however, his cruelty extended to standing on and smashing Carol’s leg and giving Kirk the most vicious of hidings. Did Kirk and Scotty’s behaviour finally and completely activate the full manifestation of the “pitbull killer gene” that Khan had been genetically engineered to have and could it be switched off, ever? Was this Harrison/Khan we see frozen again in the cryotube exactly the same man that Marcus unfroze a couple of years back? I do wonder…

Bear in mind, Marcus was no charm either. He unfroze Khan and was happy to see Khan’s “savagery” put to use when it suited his needs. Khan manipulating Marcus – perhaps, a little? But it was Khan and the others who were drifting in space in a 300 year old ship, not Marcus. Instead, Marcus was an Admiral, Head of Starfleet no less with access to all kinds of sensitive and classified information about all kinds of stuff, whether pertaining to earth or other worlds within the Federation, as well as contacts and what’s more, enormous POWER and influence. Who was in the best position to imprison and manipulate? Occam’s Razor here people…

All this stuff that I read here makes no sense and might as well be another movie.

745. Keachick - September 29, 2013

TUP – If you think the scene with Winona being in labour constitutes “lazy writing”, I can only conclude that you do not know much about pregnancy and what can precipitate early labour. Being involved in car crash, even if the woman is not injured at at, can induce labour. All it requires is a big enough jolt to cause (even partial) rupture of the amniotic sac. Once water breaks, then that baby needs to get born, ready or not. If there is some bleeding as well, then…off we go to the hospital, midwife’s care, medical shuttlecraft whatever, toute suite. Human Biology 101. Get it now!

Besides, babies can be born in all kinds of circumstances. Many a baby in the past could be born on the open ocean, so why not in a state-of-the-art starship of the future? I know that many airlines today do not allow women who are over so many weeks of pregnancy to fly, however that does not mean that a woman in the early weeks of pregnancy who is allowed to fly may not suffer a miscarriage while in the air… Most of the time, it is possible that women themselves may get a sense of whether or not it is OK to fly and act accordingly. Being part of a “good fight”…

746. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 29, 2013

@740 / Bob Orci

“When someone says “lazy writing” my first thought is “lazy viewer” who has to have everything spelled out for them, while simultaneously complaining that the movie us not mentally challenging.”

BOB, exactly! Like you think I am so lazy that I can’t pretty munch assume that Khan has shut down the Starfleet Building security protocols. and that you therefore need to add an additional scene for lazy viewer me that shows Khan logging on to a star-fleet security system..and thereby lessening the dramatic impact of Khan’s attack on Starfleet HQ?

No, I’m not that lazy type of viewer. I “got it” right when I saw it on-screen on opening night.

Don’t let the nitpicking get to you, my friend.

747. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 29, 2013

TrekkieJan,

We are cool. Let’s start over. I have been an ass at times in the past as well. No big deal.

748. Keachick - September 29, 2013

I suppose that I did not think that far, but yes, MJ, it is likely that Khan could have shut down the Starfleet Building security protocols. That makes sense. I just thought that he had a helicopter with some pretty powerful weaponry and was making a horrible mess of the place…”Maybe I’ll get that bastard Marcus, maybe not!” This Harrison person had already been explained by Marcus, ie being one of Starfleet’s top operatives who had apparently gone rogue…

Of course, if he did manage to kill Marcus, then we would not have been given the story we got. We would be now discussing a (slightly?) different story…

749. IDIC Lives! - September 29, 2013

Winona is Spock’s mother, not Kirk’s, you eejits.

Also someone called Kirk’s son “Peter” in one of these comments.

750. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 29, 2013

I wonder if the “saboteur” on the ship thing was ever addressed? There seemed to be a saboteur on the ship, and the only new person we know of on the roster was Carol Marcus. I wonder if she might have gained her access to the ship under false pretenses as a part of her father’s plan. It would make sense if this were the case and answer some questions… It’s possible that she’s (still?) Section 31 and still working some kind of back-up plan…

751. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 29, 2013

“Winona is Spock’s mother, not Kirk’s, you eejits.”

I think Spock’s mother’s name is Amanda Grayson. Winona Ryder played her, though…

752. Keachick - September 29, 2013

#750 – That is really stretching it. More retconning here, I think…oh dear.

What about the man who was on the ship overseeing the torpedoes being brought onto the Enterprise as per Admiral Marcus’s instructions and when Scotty asked him for any information, he always answered “Classified”? He seems to be the most likely suspect.

753. Keachick - September 29, 2013

OT – Chris Pine as Prince Charming seems to be speaking with a very princely English accent. Oh, and let’s not forget the wave…LOL

Sorry – Marja? This Prince Charming has lovely soft-looking facial fluff – probably, specially coloured and washed with a moisturizing shampoo…sigh…what’s not to love?…:)

Just to lighten the discussion…why not?

754. Keachick - September 29, 2013

Spock’s mother’s name was Amanda Grayson and played by Winona Ryder. Kirk’s mother’s name was Winona Kirk and was played by Jennifer Morrison.
Prime Kirk’s son’s name was David Marcus and played by Merritt Butrick (now deceased).

755. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 29, 2013

” #750 – That is really stretching it. More retconning here, I think…oh dear.

What about the man who was on the ship overseeing the torpedoes being brought onto the Enterprise as per Admiral Marcus’s instructions and when Scotty asked him for any information, he always answered “Classified”? He seems to be the most likely suspect.”

Knowing that something is “classified” does not mean the person knows the classified info. If I tell someone to carry a box into a room, and that the contents within that box are “private,” this doesn’t mean that the person doing the carrying is up to no good or in on anything when they relay that the contents are “private” when asked. Trying to make this something else is the “stretch.”

There’s no stretch to someone who’s Section 31 one being part of some scheme or ongoing back-up plan. It’s actually quite possible and makes sense…

756. Vultan - September 29, 2013

So is it being a “lazy viewer” to criticize reusing scenes and dialogue out of TWOK, Trek ’09, TUC, etc.? Because I consider that lazy writing.

No need to pick at plot holes and bad science.

757. Phil - September 29, 2013

For all the chatter that has cropped up around some of the specific details of the movie, it strikes me as a bit odd that the Cyber-Science Officer (aka GATT 5000) seems to have sparked very little interest. The guy is very Borg and Data like, but seems to be well ahead of his time. TOS automatons were still very robotic in nature, yet they seemed to figure it our in this universe. An AI – driven story could have been very sci-fi and compatible with the Trek universe has the writers chosen to go that direction…

758. dmduncan - September 29, 2013

731. Curious Cadet – September 29, 2013

“I wonder how many ‘GX1233 stroke 45B’ forms in triplicate Khan had to fill out for this part of the plan alone …”

All done through a combination of hacking and/or having the right access by any other means. No forms necessary. It’s the future. They have hard drives.

“Unfortunately we know THIS scenario could never have happened in the movie, as McCoy and Marcus state conclusively that the cryotubes in the torpedoes are in fact 300 years old, so not only are they the originals, but they have windows through which to see the faces of the bodies, likely to raise some questions.”

No problem. The tubes themselves are placed into new housings and moved to a new location as per Admiral Marcus’ orders. The new housing complete with hatch becomes the core of the torpedo that will have the rest of the torpedo elements attached by an entirely different team, also per Admiral Marcus’ orders.

“Bureaucracy aside, I find it difficult to believe anything could happen with the 72 cryotubes that Marcus was not immediately notified about.”

Not really bureaucracy. Above top secret compartmentalization. Sort of like scientists hired to reverse engineer a UFO where none of them knows what the other is doing so none of them can put a big picture together of what the objective is.

But Marcus DID find out. All we really need to believe is that Khan’s plan worked—for a while.

Indeed, you might have an alternate scenario where Marcus finds out early but doesn’t reveal that he knows. He wants Khan to THINK his plan is working, and then he steps in late in the operation to stop Khan.

Having 72 liabilities conveniently stored in torpedoes almost saved Marcus a load of trouble and almost got him a war with the Klingons, did it not?

All I’m saying is if you really want to, you can find a plausible way of writing is that is consistent with Star Trek’s level of reality. That, I think, is the important thing to remember, i.e., not to try to give Star Trek micro-realism, but to honor a reality—where starships have gravity and transporters don’t need receivers at the destination—by keeping what you contribute as a writer on the same level as that sort of thing.

759. Vultan - September 29, 2013

Not that I don’t mind a little wink to the fans once in awhile.

I did like what Skyfall did, with the mentions of an exploding pen, etc. The lifting of plot elements from The Dark Knight was a bit lazy of their part, but I do give them credit for not having a Javier Bardem Goldfinger being sucked out a plane window.

760. MJB - September 29, 2013

756. Vultan
“So is it being a “lazy viewer” to criticize reusing scenes and dialogue out of TWOK, Trek ’09, TUC, etc.? Because I consider that lazy writing.”

I don’t get why this keeps coming up. It’s an alternate timeline that is on a different course from prime because of the events in ST09. So….wouldn’t you expect some of the prime universe events to be similar to our new alternate universe? I expect some things to be the same but maybe with a special twist. Why is it so hard to understand that? I think it’s fun to see how prime events will be different in the alt universe. I saw something similar in all the Mirror TV episodes. What’s the big deal about nuTrek doing the same thing?

761. Basement Blogger - September 29, 2013

I see we’re still talking about some fans nitpicking Star Trek Into Darkness and Star Trek 2009. Look I liked Star Trek but was one of those who thought Nero messed up the whole prime timeline. Instead it created a parallel universe. I thought maybe someone speaking another line about this would have been helpful, maybe Spock saying to young Kirk, “In my universe…” That’s the beauty of this website. I found Bob’s interview and a discussion of “Parallels” to be helpful.

Trekkers, not everything needs to be explained. I’ve already had no problem with Khan using an aircraft to attack Starfleet headquarters. I’ve said this before. Utopian society; lax security. Could be a Federation craft that Khan stole.

But here’s a better example of a plot hole or a lack of exposition. I’m watching G.I. Joe: Retaliation. (2013) And I see bad guy Storm Shadow. Hold on. In G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra, (2009) he’s killed. I mean you got to assume that, after all he gets stabbed in the chest with a sword and falls off a tower. Anyway neither in Retaliation or Rise of Cobra is there an explanation or scene how Storm Shadow survived. That is a plot hole and one that needs to be explained. By the way, both movies were bad with Retaliation barely better than its predecessor.

In Star Trek Into Darkness, I found no such plot holes. For example, the haters have gone after Khan’s super blood. But there’s canon that backs this up. In TOS episode Space Seed, McCoy discovers that Khan has extraordinary recuperative powers.

762. Vultan - September 29, 2013

#760

Not hard to understand at all. It’s commerce. They’re releasing greatest hits albums now. I get it.

763. Phil - September 29, 2013

@746. Bob can’t have it both ways – in his defense, yeah, criticizing the writing is a weak attack because some particular aspect of a scene wasn’t spelled out in more detail for you. Further, watching a movie frame by frame to draw up a complaint list is disingenuous, because it takes away from the intuitive experience most people bring into the theater. As long as there is a reasonable probability that events can unfold a certain way people will accept that. I didn’t need to see Khan disabling a defensive network to understand that it was possible to attack that building.

On the other hand, at some point Bob is going to have to own that chunks of very well know dialogue was lifted from WOK. That cheapened the experience, and yeah, it was lazy. The movie didn’t suck – but at some point, an admission on his part that it could have been done better would diffuse a lot of this criticism. At the moment, he can’t/won’t admit that, and the rather condescending defenses he has offered up just further alienate the people he needs to have on his side.

764. Cygnus-X1 - September 29, 2013

735. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – September 29, 2013

Well, I don’t think that many people would say that I haven’t been forthcoming with regard to what I dislike about STID.

The specific differences between plot contrivances that work and those that don’t are many and varied. One of the main themes I’ve been trying to bring everything back to, however, is whether or not the movie “earns” the plot contrivance. Or, to put it another way, whether or not the plot contrivance earns its keep. If the plot contrivance inspires a meaningful theme and story development, then the contrivance has earned its keep. An analogy that I used above is that a good plot contrivance is something that inspires a productive thought-experiment.

To wit: What if there were a device that could terraform a planet in a very short amount of time? What would such a device be made of? What would different kinds of people (good and bad) use it for? What would be the moral implications of such technology? What would drive people to create such technology? Would we find their motives good, bad, or neither?

These are some of the questions examined in TWOK. They all obviously meaningfully influenced the story, and the plot contrivance in question (the Genesis Device) further served as a metaphor vis-a-vis Kirk’s angst about getting old. Moreover, the Genesis Device continued paying dividends in the sequel, STIII, serving as a mechanism for the birth/re-birth theme (Spock) and yielding yet another theme as the Genesis Planet is found to be fundamentally unstable and the once-lauded technological marvel (the Genesis Device) found ultimately to be a failure, further driving home the point about human hubris, which had been raised by McCoy in TWOK.

We got all of that from the Genesis Device and Nick Meyer asking simply, “What if?”

What’d we from Red Matter? As I detailed above, all we got from Red Matter was a bunch of plot points at the cost of scientific credibility and overall believability in the movie.

That’s the big difference between a good plot contrivance and a poor one.

765. Vultan - September 29, 2013

^^^

What Phil said. And he put it in a much better, much more tactful way than I did.

766. Cygnus-X1 - September 29, 2013

738. Curious Cadet – September 29, 2013

I appreciate what you’re saying.

—Kirk states: “There will always be those who mean to do us harm. To stop them, we risk awakening the same evil within ourselves. Our first instinct is to seek revenge when those we love are taken from us. But that’s not who we are. ”—

So, Khan represents the evil in humanity that is awakened when Adm. Marcus seeks revenge on the Klingons? But, I thought Marcus’s motive was to launch a preventative war against the Klingons whom he regarded as an imminent threat to humanity? Was this supposed to be a Marcus revenge story?

(And how did you remember that exact line of dialogue from Kirk??)

767. Keachick - September 29, 2013

#755 – “Knowing that something is “classified” does not mean the person knows the classified info.”

Did I write that though? No. Nor did I deduce anywhere here that this person may know what the classification information was.

I would think that this was a “need to know” scenario and this guy did not need to know. What he may have needed to know was to how quickly and simply do something that would damage the warp core and set a timer that would cause warp core problems to happen at a specific place/time. This is what we saw happen.

He was there as per Marcus’s instructions. Clearly, one of those instructions was not to allow Scotty or anyone access to information that was deemed classified. However, we do not know what other instructions Marcus may have given this person, whilst he was aboard the Enterprise.

The person, overseeing the loading of the torpedoes onto the Enterprise, was someone working for Marcus – in plain sight…why would anyone suspect anything? On reflection, I think that was his cover – overseeing the torpedoes being loaded.

It is not such a stretch at all, not nearly as big as the one where you are trying to implicate Carol Marcus in some longwinded, convoluted, illegal plan…Carol had been quite clear about why she used an alias and why she was there.

768. Star Trek Family - September 29, 2013

STID is just a movie! I love a good debate like anyone else, but do we have to be so nit picky about it.
This movie has some flaws but do we really have to Anal-lyze it to death!
The key word being Anal.

769. Keachick - September 29, 2013

#765 – re Kirk’s speech/dialogue… Because he watched it on his DVD/Blu-ray player just before typing the quote? Using the subtitles set up helps as well. Just guessing, of course.

Those are great words – simple, straight forward and easy to remember and remembered is what they need to be.

770. Cygnus-X1 - September 29, 2013

763. Phil – September 29, 2013

—On the other hand, at some point Bob is going to have to own that chunks of very well known dialogue was lifted from WOK. That cheapened the experience, and yeah, it was lazy. The movie didn’t suck – but at some point, an admission on his part that it could have been done better would diffuse a lot of this criticism. At the moment, he can’t/won’t admit that, and the rather condescending defenses he has offered up just further alienate the people he needs to have on his side.—

Well said.

The attack on Star Fleet HQ wasn’t a deal-breaker for me, and wouldn’t have been a big deal in a meaningful, effective, well-written movie. But the drip-drip-drip of scene after scene after scene that seems to suggest the values underlying the whole project to have been heavily tilted away from the creative side and in favor of the production side leaves one with the overall impression that many have referred to as “creatively lazy” or “lazy writing.”

And even so, sitting in the theater opening day I was with them right up until the TWOK death scene rip-off. I think when I saw that, I audibly said “Oh my God…” I was incredulous. And the rest of the movie after that was pretty lame anyway. A boring action scene between the by-now regularly out-of-character Spock and Khan, the Enterprise crash-landing on a planet (again) but in CGI this time, and whatever came after that.

771. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 29, 2013

“What he may have needed to know was to how quickly and simply do something that would damage the warp core and set a timer that would cause warp core problems to happen at a specific place/time. This is what we saw happen.

Nope. I never saw anyone actually doing the sabotage. If that were the case, there’d be no speculation as to who the saboteur was. I’m not going to bother with arguing with someone’s delusions…

Certain people can say what they want and try to add scenes to the movie that were never there. I still think Carol being the saboteur would be interesting, and I could quite see it working. It’s too bad certain people can’t take that…

772. Cygnus-X1 - September 29, 2013

768. Keachick – September 29, 2013

—#765 – re Kirk’s speech/dialogue… Because he watched it on his DVD/Blu-ray player just before typing the quote?—

Oh, is it on DVD already? Not that I’ll be buying it.

773. Curious Cadet - September 29, 2013

@765. Cygnus-X1,

In this analogy Marcus is the man who means to do us harm. Khan is the personification of the same evil that awakens within ourselves to stop them. In other words, Marcus means to do us harm by involving us in a war with the Klingons, he literally awakens the evil by which to do it in the form of Khan to achieve that goal. We figuratively awaken it to fight it.

Revenge is a separate issue. Marcus seeks revenge on Khan for his betrayal, and resulting deaths. It’s ironic because had Marcus been successful in getting the Federation into a war with the Klingons, untold others would have died, with which he otherwise seems fine. In as much as Khan is a personification of Marcus’ evil, it is Khan’s initial quest for revenge that gets the whole revenge ball rolling (our first instinct).

774. Keachick - September 29, 2013

#763 – “On the other hand, at some point Bob is going to have to own that chunks of very well know dialogue was lifted from WOK. That cheapened the experience, and yeah, it was lazy. The movie didn’t suck – but at some point, an admission on his part that it could have been done better would diffuse a lot of this criticism. At the moment, he can’t/won’t admit that, and the rather condescending defenses he has offered up just further alienate the people he needs to have on his side.”

Yes, well, that would apply to everyone of us. We could all do or have done better in whatever our endeavours might be…

It may have “cheapened the experience” for you, Phil and others, and you may consider it “lazy” but that is your OPINION, an opinion, I, for one, do not share.

But was the dialogue lifted straight from TWOK? It was very similar but there was a lot that was original to this Kirk and this Spock. For example, an important and emotionally charged question that prime Spock asked as he lay dying in the chamber was about the Kobiyashi Maru test and asking Kirk about what Kirk thought of his solution. There was no such mention of this in STID. Instead, this Kirk spoke about why he went back for Spock. He also said about how afraid he was and asked Spock about how he could not feel, if he wanted…Some dialogue was the same, however there was much that was different.

I remember when I saw the film for the first time thinking, “Oh no, they are not going to do it [do retcon of TWOK Spock death scene], are they?” then, as I kept watching, whispering “OMG, they are!” As I watched, I got caught up with what’s was happening with these two people, not how it compared with a 32 year old movie. God, I am sooo sick of bloody TWOK!

The only criticism is that I think that Spock should have screamed Noooo! and then later when he caught up with Khan on the barge, screamed Khaaann! with such contempt and murderous intent. That could have worked better. I have already written that, though, somewhere on a thread on this site.

It was NOT lazy writing at all… and Bob and co have nothing to apologize for or admit to.

I do not that Bob is necessarily been condescending but I do think that you, Phil and others, are a little condescending to people who have no problem with what Bob et al did with the Kirk death scenes. What if Bob does admit to anything? Where does it leave someone like me – what – just some dumbass? Well, actually I seriously doubt that I am any dumber than anyone else posting here…

775. Keachick - September 29, 2013

#768 – Are you being serious?

Actually the two blu-ray version and DVD have been on sale in NZ since 18/19 September. I got my DVD copy on Thursday, 19/9/13, from my local Warehouse. I went back four days later and all the blu-rays had sold out and there were only a few DVDs left for sale. STID (all versions) is the no. 1 selling DVD/Blu-rays at the moment.

776. Keachick - September 29, 2013

“simply do something that would damage the warp core and set a timer that would cause warp core problems to happen at a specific place/time. This is what we saw happen.”

But this is what did happen. Someone did do something to sabotage the warp core and for it to “seize up” (for want of a better description) at the worst possible place – right on the Klingon border. I also wrote “may”. I have no more idea of who the real saboteur is than you do, hence the words “may”.

I may not have worded the relevant paragraph quoted very well, but I did not add any scenes that were not there.

“I’m not going to bother with arguing with someone’s delusions…”

You never cease to amaze me with how rude you can be. As for deluded – if you say so….:(

777. dmduncan - September 29, 2013

I LIKE not seeing how everything is done. I like movies that expect me to fill in the blanks, that make me an active rather than a passive viewer, whether it’s about plot details of the sort we’re discussing here (and which were present regarding MWI/QM in ST.09) or inferences we have to make to understand more immediate action on the screen, i.e., the shower scene from Psycho where we never see a single stab, or the ending of The Ghost Writer where…aah, I’d better not spoil that one in case some of you want to see it.

And that just mimics real life. We know things went from A to B—and B sometimes stretches the imagination, but we only see B and have to supply our own best guesses about A.

778. Keachick - September 29, 2013

As for delusion, when Carol Marcus was beamed aboard the Vengeance by her father, he angrily said that he would deal with her later. Carol slapped her father’s face as hard as she could and told him, “I am ashamed to be your daughter”. The only people who saw/heard that were the Vengeance bridge crew (four in all, I think) and US, THE VIEWERS!

None of the Enterprise crew saw or heard what she did and said to her father or what he said to her nor his tone, so why bother showing that, if indeed she was really in cahouts with her father? The scene was done for our benefit, so that we, the audience, would understand just who Carol Marcus really was. This is also borne out, at the end of the movie, when she is welcomed aboard the Enterprise by Captain Kirk as a new member of the Enterprise crew.

One thing I do agree with you, SUA – I’m not going to bother with arguing with someone’s delusions either.

779. Keachick - September 29, 2013

I think part of the problem with some people is that they can’t take what is actually in the movie, especially about the fact that Admiral Marcus was revealed to be something of real nasty pitbull who woke up another pitbull… then again, you know what they say – It takes one to know one.

As for lying – Admiral Marcus told the top brass assembled in SF HQ that was attacked in London was a Library Archive. This was a bald-faced lie and he knew it. Marcus also knew who John Harrison really was but told these same people that lie as well. From the very outset, Marcus proved himself to be a liar.

On the other hand, I can recall a single line of dialogue in which it is proved that Khan lied about anything. He might have been a ruthless sob but he was not a liar. Marcus was both.

780. Keachick - September 29, 2013

#768 – Except that Enterprise did not crash-land on any planet. That was what the scene showing Kirk entering the radioactive warp core and physically realigning the core so that the Enterprise would get its power back. It worked. The ship did not crash land on any planet.

I am not sure what series or film you are referring to when you talk about the Enterprise crash-landing. Are you referring to Search for Spock perhaps? If so, it was hardly the same scenario as the one presented in STID – you know, the film where the Enterprise does NOT crash land.

781. TrekkieJan - September 29, 2013

747. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!!
TrekkieJan,

We are cool. Let’s start over. I have been an ass at times in the past as well. No big deal.
I would like that. Thank you.

782. Curious Cadet - September 29, 2013

@774. dmduncan,
“We know things went from A to B—and B sometimes stretches the imagination”

When “B” stretches the imagination, that is when having “A” even the least bit explained is helpful.

But I do understand what you’re saying.

In this case, having “A” left wide open allows me to imagine a better plot (as long as “B” stretches the imagination anyway). So I’ll take it, at least until Sister Roberto Orci explains it all to you in the quasi-canon IDW comic.

783. Phil - September 29, 2013

@771. Well, yes, similar standards do apply to anyone who works. If performance isn’t up to a certain standard, we get fired. Hollywood is one of the few industries that recognizes that artistic and financial standards are not necessarily synonymous, and rewards them according.

Sorry, Rose, but you don’t have the luxury of lifting portions of the comment to craft different meaning, or to draw conclusions not supported by evidence. I clearly stated that portions of the dialogue were lifted from WOK, and no one that I’m aware of has suggested the entire movie was copied. That’s not opinion, that’s fact. If you don’t like the word lazy, perhaps plagiarism or copyright infringement is more to your liking, though I doubt the studio would pursue legal action against itself in this situation.

Yes, sections of dialogue are them same, enough so that it invited the inevitable comparisons to the source material. I doubt that was the intentions of the producers, but at this point they have been so vague when answering questions to the issues surrounding the STID production it’s not currently possible to know with any degree of certainty.

Your last comment is a bit baffling, Rose. I’ve been fairly supportive of Bad Robot’s efforts. There are aspects I don’t like, and aspects I do. Overall, the positive has outweighed the negative. There’s nothing wrong with the movie, to the extent I discussed. The creative process is a different story, and yes, at some point in the future it will be addressed, and not by suggesting the viewers are just to stupid to figure it out. If you, or Bob, want to convince the public that STID is great storytelling, then again, the criticisms will need to be addressed, and not by attacking those who are asking the questions.

784. Li'l Shat - September 29, 2013

In the third movie, Kirk will be bumped back to cadet and then get promoted right back to captain (to address his rapid rise to the captain’s chair in STID, which addressed his rapid rise to the captain’s chair in ST09).

785. Curious Cadet - September 29, 2013

@765. Cygnus-X1,

I posted a response to this but apparently it is being “moderated” … check back later, because I don’t feel like recreating it right now … haha

In the meantime, think about this part of Kirk’s statement: “To stop them, we risk awakening the same evil within ourselves. ”

Is it possible that Kirk is foreshadowing the awaking of Khan and his family in the sequel to help fight the Klingons? ;-)

And I got the quote from Memory-Alpha. Lot’s of information there …

786. Cygnus-X1 - September 29, 2013

777. Keachick – September 29, 2013

Doesn’t the Enterprise crash into San Francisco toward the end of the movie? I seem to remember something crashing into SF. Though, I admit that I was barely engaged in the movie by that point. My memory of everything that happened after the TWOK death scene rip-off is kind of a blur.

787. Cygnus-X1 - September 29, 2013

Oh, wait…was it the Vengeance that crashed into SF?

788. Keachick - September 29, 2013

“If you don’t like the word lazy, perhaps plagiarism or copyright infringement is more to your liking, though I doubt the studio would pursue legal action against itself in this situation.”

How could it be copyright infringement since I presume the studios own the copyright and have, it seems, allowed the writers to use whatever they want within Star Trek canon, of which the scenes in TWOK being discussed here are a part of? One could also say that the mission statement spoken at the end of this movie by this Kirk is plagiarism as well. Perhaps they need to write a brand, new original mission statement so that they will not be deemed lazy or plagiarist or infringing copyright.

Infringing copyright or plagiarism is where somebody copies all or part of a text written by another person, without that other person’s permission. Sometimes getting permission to use certain material may involve monetary exchange as well.

789. Jack - September 29, 2013

Using the word ‘hater’ pretty much turns any argument you might be making into gibberish.

790. TUP - September 29, 2013

@boborci. “Lazy viewer” is a cop out to me Bob. If you wrote a weak film don’t blame the viewer.

I liked the movie. I think in many ways fans over think it. I fully accept certain leaps for the sake of drama and moving the film along. Vulcan and earth being so close together doesn’t bother me because no one wants to watch the ship move through space for three hours. Sock Prime being able to watch Vulcan explode didn’t bother me because it was a leap for dramatic sake.

Concerning kirks birth my issue is not the attack led to a premature birth. I’ll watch the movie again but my recollection is George seemed to expect she was in labour. She was in a gown in sickbay in labour moments after the attack. It’s a bit of a stretch.

It’s not that big a deal but I’m a life long Trekkie so save your insults for someone else.

If you took as much time to carefully consider plot holes and creative decisions as you do responding to fans you might have produced a better film. I say that not as an insult. There were decisions made that could easily have been different and made the film better.

Khan was done wrong. The vast majority of viewers don’t care because they aren’t hardcore Trekkies. It wouldn’t have mattered if he was khan or the Easter bunny. But the trek fandom rejected it.

I loved the WoK ending except the magic blood. That was lazy writing.

The tribble line which was an absolute anvil during that scene was terribly lazy writing.

Pile went out like a chump but that’s opinion.

Scotty quitting was heavy handed and such an obvious shoehorned development to get him off the ship. Lazy.

The Spock chase scene was awesome. Don’t let anyone tell you different.

791. Keachick - September 29, 2013

Cygnus-X1 – Yes, it was the Vengeance that crashed into San Francisco. On reflection, the ship that also crashed into San Francisco Bay was a Klingon war bird, carrying George and Gracie, not the Enterprise. That happened at the end of Star Trek IV – The Voyage Home.

It is clear that you, like so many other people, need to truly live in the moment. Otherwise, I cannot see how you can enjoy much at all, if you are constantly been distracted by memories of something else you watched that seems so much alike, but is NOT the same thing. Everything is a variation of something. Sometimes the variations are difficult to perceive at first and other times they are very obvious. It can be just as joyful and intellectually satisfying discovering the subtle, little variations as it can be enjoying something that is obviously at great variance.

For example, the fight scenes tend to be boring and repetitive for the most part in most movies, including STID. However, I had asked Bob Orci to have one scene where Kirk actually wins a hand to hand combat. I do not count him knocking out Scotty as a valid one. Therefore, I looked to see if there was such a scene and voila – I have found it…

792. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 29, 2013

Mmh, I never said Carol was working with her father. It is possible to agree on a goal but not the methods, or to have a different goal, and to have your own strategy within a subgroup of Section 31… But lol to the screaming in all-caps and the tirade, though… The double agent thing is very plausible, but the writers will do what they do…

=======================

Moving along…

@Curious 779

“So I’ll take it, at least until Sister Roberto Orci explains it all to you in the quasi-canon IDW comic.”

And that’s something I don’t like. I don’t have any issue with them making comics for the people that are into that, but those comics should be additional and not supplemental in my view. They shouldn’t make up for what the movie didn’t do (or what the next movie won’t do) because then that seems like a sort of punishment or an odd requirement in order to get the “full story” about the film(s) for the people that don’t care for comics but do like films.

There are all kinds of little side “episodes” they could do for the comics without that taking over the films’ job to provide the necessary exposition and reasoning (and character moments) needed for the films. But, big things, like PTSD over the loss of Vulcan shouldn’t be dealt with in the comics and then glossed over in the subsequent film(s). It just makes things seem weird or off within the following film.

I’ve watched a lot of movies that are based on comic book characters (Spiderman, X-Men, Batman, etc.) and that come in trilogies or better, and this was the first time I’ve been told by multiple people that I needed to read comics to get answers to some of the questions I had about the film (STID). There’s just something wrong with that to me… Just my opinion, though. YMMV.

793. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 29, 2013

Phil 780

” The creative process is a different story, and yes, at some point in the future it will be addressed, and not by suggesting the viewers are just to stupid to figure it out. “

And I’m saying this in the most respectful way that I possibly can. Sometimes, people understand what they are trying to do better than they do. The whole “cold fusion” thing seems like a good example on that one… So, to then suggest that perhaps people just couldn’t understand what you were doing doesn’t really help anything, and it doesn’t make the issues people have go away. That’s all I have to say on that.

794. Marja - September 29, 2013

711 Cygnus, well, sure, and perhaps we could look at Red Matter as an unnatural means of interference with the natural order, which would have been used productively, but was turned in the service of revenge … a theme expanded upon in STiD with Marcus and Khan.
Your 733, So much to ponder! I’ll have to give all these comments a good looking over a bit later.

742 TrekMadeMeFat, I am NOT asking them to slow the movies down b/c I am a lazy viewer. I am asking them to slow them down because characters discussing morality and implications of actions is one of the most precious things in Trek – and one very admirably done by O&K. This is lost to too many minutes of flashy action sequences. I’m just sayin’, 5 minutes of dialogue instead of 5 minutes of ACTION!, over the course of a 2-hour movie. [grin] or maybe the movie could be a tad bit longer … say 5 or 10 minutes?

795. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 29, 2013

@783 / Cygnus X-1

“Doesn’t the Enterprise crash into San Francisco toward the end of the movie? I seem to remember something crashing into SF. Though, I admit that I was barely engaged in the movie by that point. My memory of everything that happened after the TWOK death scene rip-off is kind of a blur.”

Dude, ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? :-))

You’ve been giving us MULTIPLE POSTS PER DAY that are CRITICAL OF STID and you DON’T EVEN KNOW what happenned at the end of this movie???

Sorry, but you just lost all credibility here for me in terms of your comments on STID. If you are going to show up here and discuss the movie in detail with us, then at lease know what in the F happens in the movie. That would provide just a common courtesy here towards those of us who like the movie, who are trying to have an intelligent discussion with you about it.

Sheesh! I’ve heard it all now on this site….

796. Marja - September 30, 2013

757 Phil, Might GATT 5000 “Science Officer 17–” WAIT IS HE THE 1701?? Heh …

Might he be a cyborg, whose vocal capacity was perhaps destroyed in some previous-to-ST 2009 battle?

I thought AI might be considered far too dangerous by the Federation after Nero’s incursion. But maybe they went with AI as a “super-soldiers” project [how depressing].

797. Dave H - September 30, 2013

@792

MJ, great point. I a bit shocked that this has come out.

For my part, I would never show up in fan forum and post continual critiques on something that I wasn’t completely familiar with. That would show a lack of respect to any fans who may disagree with my continued criticium, and would also undermine others’ opinions who agreed with mine.

But that’s just me! ;-)

798. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 30, 2013

#793 Marja

“Might he be a cyborg, whose vocal capacity was perhaps destroyed in some previous-to-ST 2009 battle? “

He spoke on the bridge in STID, iirc.

799. Jai - September 30, 2013

Re: #793:

“757 Phil, Might GATT 5000 “Science Officer 17–” WAIT IS HE THE 1701?? Heh …

Might he be a cyborg, whose vocal capacity was perhaps destroyed in some previous-to-ST 2009 battle?”

It’s just another shoutout to Star Wars. The character looks exactly like Lando’s main henchman in The Empire Strikes Back.

Captain Pike’s “Punch it” catchphrase is from Star Wars too. Lando shouted that when telling Chewbacca to activate the Millennium Falcon’s hyperdrive, when the heroes (minus Han Solo) escaped at the end of TESB.

800. Jai - September 30, 2013

Re: #642:

“But, the “72 virgins” comment was in bad taste – at least in my opinion.”

A few months ago, Bob Orci wrote a comment on Trekmovie confirming that the 72 Augments/cryopods in STID is actually a deliberate reference to the “72 virgins” myth.

801. Aurore - September 30, 2013

Regarding “John Harrison”‘s family…

I couldn’t help but notice that there are 72 torpedoes. John Harrison is a terrorist and of course Al Qaeda promises the “72 virgins.” Mere coincidence?

LINDELOF: Quick answer is, of course it is a coincidence, because that is a number taken from canon. It was pointed out to us at the scripting phase – the 72 virgins – and that actually gave us pause, because we didn’t want people drawing that comparison… but there it is.

(Link if authorized, here):
http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-interview-damon-lindelof

802. Curious Cadet - September 30, 2013

@790. TUP,
“Concerning kirks birth my issue is not the attack led to a premature birth. I’ll watch the movie again but my recollection is George seemed to expect she was in labour. She was in a gown in sickbay in labour moments after the attack. It’s a bit of a stretch.”

I answered this once @726 above. But let me simplify it.

Before Nero arrived, Winona went into labor two and a half months early. She was rushed to sickbay and given an inhibitor which stopped the premature birth. This kind of thing actually happens a lot in the real world. George was of course notified. While she was in sickbay recovering, the Kelvin was ordered to investigate the “lightning storm” in space. Nero firing on the ship caused Winona to go back into labor. If Nero had not arrived, the inhibitor would have successfully stopped the premature labor, and two and half months later, Winona would have given birth to Kirk in Iowa as she did in the Prime universe. Whether George was appraised of her current condition or not, he had the medical shuttle prepared for the condition he knew her to be in before the attack.

Is this a convenient coincidence? Yes. But your problem is with that issue that runs through the entire film, rather than that one aspect of Kirk’s birth which is otherwise legitimate.

803. Jai - September 30, 2013

Aurore, re:#801:

That’s…interesting. Bob Orci wrote this on Trekmovie, on June 27:

“In the case of this movie, the details of K’s life seemed to add to the richness of the story we generated without him. The genetic engineering, being from a less utopian time,72 crew members which happens to be the number of virgins waiting for certain folk in the afterlife…

http://trekmovie.com/2013/06/24/sticky-post-release-into-darkness-odds-and-ends-and-general-discussion/#5132886

804. Aurore - September 30, 2013

“…Bob Orci wrote this on Trekmovie, on June 27…”
_____________

Indeed.
(Post 583):

“1.) I’ve talked a bit about this before. Essentially, the story works, in my opinion, no matter what his names is. The story is about a unique individual who was blackmailed and used by an Admiral whose fear lead him to make plans for preemptive war against possible threats. The unique individual rebels, and targets the folk and the organization who has tried to use him.

Notice I didn’t use any names above. Also, it is not the story of Space Seed, and it is not the story of WOK.

It was always our intention to harmonize with canon. For example, though we freed ourselves from canon the minute Nero showed up, we still depicted the Kobayashi Maru test, and did so in a way that in our minds, could’ve happened the same in both universes. In the case of this movie, the details of K’s life seemed to add to the richness of the story we generated without him. The genetic engineering, being from a less utopian time,72 crew members which happens to be the number of virgins waiting for certain folk in the afterlife…

If you don’t know K, it doesn’t matter at all. If you do, you get to see a different take. That was our thinking on point 1″

…I had forgotten about these comments [post 584 was interesting (to me) as well. Especially in light of what I've been reading so far on the "Khan question" etc..., on this very thread].

Thank you for the link.

805. Aurore - September 30, 2013

“…72 crew members which happens to be the number of virgins waiting for certain folk in the afterlife…”
______

I must say I am not sure what he wrote necessarily contradicts what Damon Lindelof says, though.

806. Jai - September 30, 2013

Aurore, re: #805:

“I must say I am not sure what he wrote necessarily contradicts what Damon Lindelof says, though.”

Damon Lindelof said “we didn’t want people drawing that comparison”, whereas Bob Orci seems to be contradicting him by saying the 72 virgins/72 crew members parallel “adds to the richness of the story”.

807. TUP - September 30, 2013

@802 that’s plausible. For the sake of making sense, I can accept that. I think it just illustrates that there are a series of “minor” things that, if adjusted slightly, would have made for a richer enjoyment of the film.

Addressing Khan once again, I can appreciate what the writers were trying to do when they were determined to create a story that worked without it being Khan. But to me that is actually the underlying issue. Because he could be “anyone”, he appealed to no one.

808. Curious Cadet - September 30, 2013

@806. Jai,
“Damon Lindelof said “we didn’t want people drawing that comparison”, whereas Bob Orci seems to be contradicting him by saying the 72 virgins/72 crew members parallel “adds to the richness of the story”

In other words, it’s fine to demonize a character who has a Muslim sounding name, with Islamic associations, as long as he’s not of the stereotypical color? Good thing there are no white Muslims …

809. Gary 8.5 - September 30, 2013

Bob Orci,
Do you have a favorite movie that left a lot your imagination?
A movie where you had to fill in the the gaps.
Others can answer this too.

810. TUP - September 30, 2013

Im not sure the 72 virgins think even makes sense as Khan and his followers have never been shown to be Muslim, have they? I think drawing comparisons between the political dictators that were Khan and middle east terrorists is pretty inflammatory and irrelevent.

It does show that the writers maybe werent on the same page in their understanding of Khan. They wrote the movie around a white Brit bad guy named Harrison, revealed him to be “Khan” and that somehow relates to Muslim beliefs?

Khan was not a terrorist and his character had nothing to do with terrorism. I can accept that things were different in the 60′s when he was conceived and we can use what we know of the modern world to enrich the backstory of the character. But the original intent of the character was to spark a discussion about genetic manipulation etc

811. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

The 72 thingy is canon. There were 73 survivors on the SS Botany Bay. 30 female and 43 male. Subtract Khan from that group for being awake, and he has 72 left to save.

Seems like somebody on the writing team was paying attention.

72 is an interesting number. Most people think of it in connection with 72 virgins, but 72 also marks out in degrees 5 equidistant points of a circle (360 degrees) marking the 5 points of a pentagram and, with one point upward, which recalls the Vitruvian Man.

Interesting coinkydink in the context of eugenics stories.

812. TrekkieJan - September 30, 2013

756. Vultan
So is it being a “lazy viewer” to criticize reusing scenes and dialogue out of TWOK, Trek ’09, TUC, etc.? Because I consider that lazy writing.
No need to pick at plot holes and bad science.

Nothing about these writers strikes me as lazy. I think the reused scene from TWOK (well, two reused bits, as the Khan scream came at a different part of TWOK than than the reactor death scene) can’t be the result of lazy writing.

It was a calculated risk on their part that worked with a significant amount of new viewers. I do not think they thought it would fall flat with others – particularly very eloquent reviewers on scifi magazines and fan sites.

We’re all made such miscalculations – a few of us in this thread. *points to self*

I also don’t think that makes us lazy viewers either, otoh. Several people right here have worked very hard to try to figure out the plot and meaning and I will have to watch it again now to see if we’ve come up with anything valid. I’ll have more to say when I have seen it again.

And because I will have to purchase that view in some form, I am putting my money where my mouth is. :D.

813. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

790. TUP – September 29, 2013

@boborci. “Lazy viewer” is a cop out to me Bob. If you wrote a weak film don’t blame the viewer.

***

But he didn’t write a “weak” film, so blame goes elsewhere for all the lazy complaints.

You can have legitimate gripes but those don’t take the form “the film was dumb,” which is indeed viewer laziness since the one who says those types of things opts for emotional trigger-words over facts.

814. TrekkieJan - September 30, 2013

@795. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!!
You’ve been giving us MULTIPLE POSTS PER DAY that are CRITICAL OF STID and you DON’T EVEN KNOW what happenned at the end of this movie???

Sorry, but you just lost all credibility here for me in terms of your comments on STID. If you are going to show up here and discuss the movie in detail with us, then at lease know what in the F happens in the movie. That would provide just a common courtesy here towards those of us who like the movie, who are trying to have an intelligent discussion with you about it.

I said something similar to Keachick above – my mind checked out after the reactor scene too – that’s why I was only commenting on the parts I had clearly understood.

What did we miss? Like i said earlier, I wasn’t paying much attention as the two smartest guys on the planet ran and and punched each other, and spaceships fell from the moon to the Earth. Kirk comes back, the end.

I am still trying to figure out if it would have been cooler if the Enterprise rose out of the sea a second time. (I don’t think so.)

I think we’re justified in commenting on the meat of the movie – as well as why those last scenes didn’t work to us as viewers. I wasn’t being a lazy viewer – it was obvious where the movie was going, so I went back to thinking about the less obvious parts.

815. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

And regarding the alleged “ripping off” of the TWOK death scene, let me say this.

You can’t rip yourself off. It’s all Star Trek. If some other franchise did that in one of their stories, you can say they ripped off TWOK. But in the context of ST.09 where MWI/QM played and continues to play a meaningful role in this new series of Star Treks, the two death scenes continue to play with the idea of alternate universes and of old characters coming to be who they are, the same in both universes.

STID reprises a theme with some obvious alterations, and attacking STID for ripping off TWOK is like attacking a symphony because it reprises a theme from an earlier part of the symphony, but with some notes changed.

I’m not saying you have to LIKE Spock’s scream or Kirk’s death, but I do think you have to find a more legitimate criticism of it than that.

816. TUP - September 30, 2013

@813 I never said the film was dumb at all. I’ve repeatedly said I loved the film, especially the first time I saw it. Watching the Blu-Ray at home affords me the time to actually drill down into the story and details and thats where the issues become really glaring.

Re-using the WoK was NOT lazy. It was done deliberately. And I loved it. I have been saying I would have enjoyed even more “word for word” dialogue in that scene. I wanted to hear “the good of the many outweight the good of the one”. When Spock realised “because you are my friend”, I assumed it was setting them up to say “I have been and always shall be…” later but they didnt.

What I find lazy is the points in the film where something just didnt fit and I am sure these writers knew it didnt and they just said “heck, no one will notice.” and moved on. That annoys me.

The Tribble, the magic blood, the entire point of Marcus’ plan, having a model of his secret ship on his desk all had elements of lazy. Even the opening scene was lazy in that the action depicted didnt really set up the demotion very well (we saw, what, a dozen aliens who were exposed to the Enterprise? So what…)

It a viewer doesnt buy a comic book to fill in the gaps of a big budget film, thats not lazy viewing. In fact, its the purest example of lazy writing to rely on viewers buying other material to fully understand the film.

817. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

816. TUP – September 30, 2013

The Tribble, the magic blood, the entire point of Marcus’ plan, having a model of his secret ship on his desk all had elements of lazy.

***

The model on the desk wasn’t “lazy” either. Lazy is not making the effort. That was effort they made. It would have been easier not to have that model on the desk at all, but they went ahead and did something less easy by having it there. Thus, again, “lazy” doesn’t seem to be the right criticism.

That model is deliberately put there as a harbinger and it therefore has a structural purpose in the story which you might not find happening in a similar real world equivalent of that scene, so the criticism of that model misses the point of that model, in my view

There is a danger in comparing too closely the dramatic devices of a movie and real world logic. We are not looking at a real world in a movie, and real life does not neatly unfold as a story in a movie. Movies “talk” to us differently than the real world does, so the logic of why x, y, or z is there is not always comparable between life and art.

As far as the tribble and the blood—those two things were tied together. The tribble was there to show the life saving properties of the blood.

And I don’t consider either of those lazy either. I consider them if anything, consistent with what TOS itself always did, even in its best episodes, and I never thought of City on the Edge of Forever as “lazy.”

818. TUP - September 30, 2013

Give me an example of “lazy” from City on the Edge of Forever.

The Tribble line was the most obnoxious anvil I’ve ever seen. It was eye-rolling. It was so far out of the scene that Bob Orci might as well have stepped into the scene, looked right into the camera and said “Bones’ tests on Khan’s blood will be an important development later in the movie”. Heavy-handed to the Nth degree.

The Magic Blood was the “out” so they could kill Kirk. I realise they felt Kirk dying was important to both Kirk and Spock’s development and relationship. Side note: in WoK, Spock didnt go into the chamber because he was selfless, he went in because logically he was the only one on the ship that could withstand the radiation long enough to complete the task. Otherwise, you can bet Scotty would have done so.

We can all come up with our own fan fiction to explain away the “cure for death” but we shouldnt have to. It was stupid.

I have no issue with “fictional logic vs real worl logic”. Watch any court room drama and you’d think every lawyer was Perry Mason but any of us who have watched real court room action know its very rarely that exciting. I’ve listed many examples in the Trek movies where I happily over-looked flaws and accepted them as sacrifices for dramatic purposes.

Having that ship on Marcus’ desk was stupid. Im sure Bob can give us a valid to him reason why it was. Probably because as the camera pans over the ship models we’d recognize them all except that one…and it would foreshadow what was to come. Thats BS. It was stupid. It added nothing to the plot of the movie in any way other than for us to nitpick how stupid it was.

819. Who cares - September 30, 2013

Uhm Jai, you might want to watch Empire Strikes Back again, Gatt 5000/Science Officer whatever number, looks absolutely nothing like Lobot, not in the slightest, the only similarity is both are bald. Lobot’s cybernetics were a device which wrapped around the back of his head, from ear to ear, Gatt 5000 has a small circle about the size of a coaster (to put under cups) on the back of his head, glowing eyes, and a computerized voice.

Please come up with some factually correct complaints if you must complain, stuff like this just makes you look bad.

BTW, Cygnus, it doesn’t matter if Nemesis is full of “plot holes and bad science” because it’s canon, just like all to other movies and series episodes.

820. Cygnus-X1 - September 30, 2013

795. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – September 29, 2013

Oh, please.

I saw the movie twice in the theater. Which is more than it deserved.

By the end of the movie, it didn’t really matter which ship was crashing into SF or the choreography of the chase sequence with Spock and Khan. The TWOK death scene rip-off, magic blood plot hole, and emotionally unglued (yet again) Spock by that point had rendered me numb. It was mostly boring, pointless action sequences after that anyway.

If you want to dismiss everything I’ve said, that is totally fine with me. But spare me your justification. It’s not as though you’d been sympathizing with my complaints about STID until *GASP* I forgot that it was the Vengeance that crashed into SF. As though that somehow has any bearing on the very detailed points I’ve been making about the plot holes, bad science, poorly written characters and other elements of the movie.

821. Hugh Hoyland - September 30, 2013

In screenplay/writing its called foreshadowing. Its a basic tool and used a zillion times in books and movies.

822. TUP - September 30, 2013

The Tribble and the ship model were not foreshadowing. They were anvils dropped on the heads of unsuspecting viewers.

823. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

816. TUP – September 30, 2013

Ahmed, I believe, was the one who told Bob his film was “dumb.” It was purely emotive language, signifying no objectively verifiable features of the film, intended to say to Bob “I don’t like what you did and I want you to feel bad about it.”

That’s what contributed to Bob’s outburst. Bob asked a serious question and he got a flippant response.

If fans have a good criticism of the film, that’s fine, but those should be distinguished from the criticisms where fans are expressing their own personal issues which the movie is helping to bring to the surface.

824. Cygnus-X1 - September 30, 2013

P.S.

And I’m telling you right now, I am NOT sitting through STID again just to bone up on my memory of the movie so that I can be more specific in my criticism of it. Criticizing the movie here is my way of making lemonade from that lemon of a movie. I am NOT going back to suck on the lemon again! Not without a good reason, anyway.

825. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

822. TUP – September 30, 2013

The Tribble and the ship model were not foreshadowing. They were anvils dropped on the heads of unsuspecting viewers.

***

See, there goes the emotive language again, as if we’re all in a Wile E. Coyote / Road Runner cartoon with anvils dropping on our heads.

If your head hurt after those scenes I’ll take your word for it, but I find it difficult to sympathize with your criticisms.

My criticism would be of the trailer for showing the Vengeance at all rather than for having a mysterious model of some strange ship on Marcus’ desk.

The only reason I knew the model on the desk was of the Vengeance was because I saw the Vengeance in the trailers. I think it would have been better if we didn’t see that in the trailer. But again, not a mistake of the film—but perhaps of the marketing.

826. Buzz Cagney - September 30, 2013

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2439193/Benedict-Cumberbatch-Chris-Pine-BFFs-party-Justin-Timberlake-concert-London.html

827. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

818. TUP – September 30, 2013

Give me an example of “lazy” from City on the Edge of Forever.

***

It’s depiction of time travel where everything is erased from the crew’s past, including the “horse” they rode in on, while they are all still there on the planet. Supply your own explanation. Neither Ellison nor Roddenberry thought one pertinent.

From The Enemy Within we have a Sulu and landing party freezing to death on a planet surface because the transporters are on the blitz.

Are the shuttles all up on blocks having the oil changed as well?

828. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

Actually, I don’t call those things “lazy,” if you reread my post at 817. But it appears to be the same sort of thing that others think qualifies as lazy.

829. Ahmed - September 30, 2013

@ 823. dmduncan – September 30, 2013

“Ahmed, I believe, was the one who told Bob his film was “dumb.” It was purely emotive language, signifying no objectively verifiable features of the film, intended to say to Bob “I don’t like what you did and I want you to feel bad about it.””

Nope, my response was this:

—————————————
315. Ahmed – September 2, 2013

@ 309. boborci – September 2, 2013

“You think action and thinking are mutually exclusive.”

No, we can have a movie with both action & brain, case in point Inception & Indiana Jones movies. What I’m saying that STID was a movie that has lot more action & explosions than a coherent story or character developments.

“Ok, then. Pitch me Into Darkness. Pitch me the plot, and let’s comapre it to other pitches. Go ahead. Let’s see if you actually understood the movie. Tell me what happened?”

I’m sorry but what plot ? Khan was found & used by Section 31 & then he put his own people in the torpedo to save them or whatever & the rest of the movie follow in the same illogical way.

No disrespect to you guys, STID made tons of money but it was worse than ST09 in many aspects.
—————————————

You happen to think STID was a masterpiece, fine by me, I’ve no problem with that. But you should accept also that others don’t like that movie for many reasons.

830. Curious Cadet - September 30, 2013

@818. TUP,
“Im sure Bob can give us a valid to him reason why it was.”

Orci already told us it was a mistake. He was not on set that day and somebody screwed up.

Someone suggested that the dreadnaught superstructure was a prototype on the public drawing boards, but Khan modified it to be the one man weapon of mass destruction it became, and something like that is how it has to be viewed at this point. Unfortunately canon tells us Khan designed it, but again, rather than try to hide a project of that size, they disclose it publicly and then modify it secretly.

831. boborci - September 30, 2013

It was awesome going to Rod’s house to do that podcast. he has a super cool pad!

832. boborci - September 30, 2013

830 Curious

although, I have a vague memory of discussing the fact that a new ship design that was already in the works was re appropriated to be a war ship. So design of ship could be known, but not its purpose or specific attributes.

833. TUP - September 30, 2013

I stand corrected on the ship model “error”. Kudos to Bob for admitting it was a mistake (could it not have been erased in post production or was it not deemed worth the effort?).

I use “Anvil” because thats what those scenes were (the Tribble in particular). We have a tense, emotional scene and out of the blue Kirk matter of factly asks Bones what he’s doing with the tribble. Who cares? Are you telling me Kirk would care what scienece experiement Bones was up to at that very moment? It was just so far removed from what was actually happening.

“Im injecting Khan’s blood into a dead tribble”. Oh.. Uh..why?

I almost expected Bones to also add “I have no reason to believe this but I suspect Khan’s blood will renimate the tribble. And even though Tribbles and humans are vastly different, I should be able to quickly mix up a syrum to bring dead officers back to life, thus curing death”.

It was HORRIBLE. Ill say this now, regardless of whatever I might nitpick from the two films, that scene was the WORST in both. It knocked me out of the film like coming to a dead stop from warp 9. it was awful. I cant imagine the writers, producersm, editors etc watched that scene over and over and then left it in. It was THAT bad.

834. MJB - September 30, 2013

Bob Orci –
I enjoyed the extras on the STID blu-ray. I saw you in the extra about the Enterprise set….which looks totally awesome! Did they scrap that set or are they able to save most of it for Star Trek 3?

835. Ahmed - September 30, 2013

@boborci

You guys are doing great job with “Sleepy Hollow”, I had great fun with it & I’m more excited by the news that John Noble will join the cast. Keep it up :)

836. Who cares - September 30, 2013

@Cygnus, I forgot part of what I wanted to say earlier, as I said Nemesis is canon, just like “superblood” due to genetic engineering has been canon since season 2 of TNG, when Picard and his crew encountered a group of genetically engineered people whose blood had antibodies that were capable of leaving their bodies and becoming an airborne age accelerating disease.

837. boborci - September 30, 2013

834 mjb

saved the set, of course!;)

835 ahmed

thank u. having a good time with that show.

838. Aurore - September 30, 2013

“Damon Lindelof said ‘we didn’t want people drawing that comparison’, whereas Bob Orci seems to be contradicting him by saying the 72 virgins/72 crew members parallel ‘adds to the richness of the story’”.
________

What I meant @ 805 is that I, personally, thought Roberto Orci was merely acknowledging the fact that some people would be free to draw that inference, in the sense that since It was pointed out to them (the 72 virgins) at the scripting phase, they were aware of the fact that some people in the audience would/could make that comparison regardless of their intention.

After all, the number “72″ comes from “canon” as Damon Lindelof pointed out in the interview I linked to.

Still, it is a fact he had to point out to an interviewer who, unless I’m mistaken, happens to be a Star Trek fan, in other words someone who must be familiar with “canon”.* Nevertheless, the interviewer in question still could not help but notice (his own words) the 72 torpedoes, and wanted to know whetther or not it was a deliberate reference to the “72 virgins” myth.

* When this here site reported on the clip where “John Harrison” stated there were 72 reasons why Kirk should trust him, I do remember posters asserting there could be no doubt Khan would be in the sequel:

http://trekmovie.com/2013/04/29/third-star-trek-into-darkness-clip-has-kirk-confronting-harrison-berlin-premiere-prep-pix/

(…Of course, I could be wrong. I realise that.)

839. Ahmed - September 30, 2013

Once Zoe Saldana get too busy with the 3 Avatar sequels, they should bring Nicole Beharie (Sleepy Hollow) to take over.

840. Buzz Cagney - September 30, 2013

What some people are missing here, as did I for a while, is that Darkness is a big screen TOS episode. Its the only movie that has got near capturing that feel or style. Bones coming up with miracle cures from nowhere was typical TOS. Its arguable that perhaps they shouldn’t have gone down that road for a big screen adventure but if you look at it that way its acceptable enough.

841. TUP - September 30, 2013

Im going to challenge myself to watch both movies again and spend time detailing the good and bad of both.

842. Phil - September 30, 2013

@830. Or just call it a prototype, or proof of concept. Plausibility is sometimes the best explanation made.

843. K-7 - September 30, 2013

Cygnus X-1,

As far as I am concerned, your posts commenting on STID can now be dismissed as “complete bullshit.” When I come here to discuss Star Trek, my opinions are based on seeing the films multiple times, and knowing what in the hell happens in each one.

You approach of posting dozens of emails critical of STID, with only having seeing half of the movie once (i.e. you admit you didn’t pay attention to the second half), is disingenuous, intellectually bankrupt, and moronic.

How dare you show up here day after day with all your negativity critiques on a movie you saw half of one time. What an ass! Shame on you!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
824. Cygnus-X1 – September 30, 2013
P.S.

And I’m telling you right now, I am NOT sitting through STID again just to bone up on my memory of the movie so that I can be more specific in my criticism of it. Criticizing the movie here is my way of making lemonade from that lemon of a movie. I am NOT going back to suck on the lemon again! Not without a good reason, anyway.

844. Gary 8.5 - September 30, 2013

Okay Bob,
I asked this question back in post #809.
But, I botched it.
So let me be more specific.
post #740 you mentioned the term “Lazy Viewers”.
And I was wondering If you had a favorite “Non Lazy Viewers Movie .”
A movie that didnt answer all of the questions.
A movie that assumed the audience was smart,
So at the end of the story the screenwriter lets the audience decide what happened .
Do you have favorite movie with a story like that Bob?

845. K-7 - September 30, 2013

Ref: TrekieJan

I get your point, TrekkieJan, but this guy thought the Enterprise crashed into San Francisco at the end of the movie, his recollection was so poor. LOL^2

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I suspect that Cygnus X-1 didn’t even bother to see the movie even once. I mean, how could you think the Enterprise crashed into SF???

I’ve seen all the bad Star Trek movies at least 4-5 times, and can tell you all of their plots. I certainly wouldn’t show up to debate with either not having seen or movie, or having zoned out over half a movie. How could my opinions be valid if I did that. I’d be the laughing stock of Trekmovie.com if that become knows.

846. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - September 30, 2013

Cygnus: “Not without a good reason, anyway.”

Perhaps a “good reason” would be to make an attempt to restore your credibility here? To take a first small step in supporting a goal of many of us taking you seriously again?

Right now, to me, you are “class clown” here.

It is what it is. Your reputation here is kupput right now. :-(

847. Keachick - September 30, 2013

Look – If someone feels that they have had an anvil dropped on them, then they should go get examined for any injury. Others, though, have not felt the drop of any anvil and are feeling just fine.

I just watch(ed) the film as I watch real life. I am presented with various scenarios, all of them having the option of going thisaway, thataway, downaway, upaway, or reaching a deadend…sometimes I like where I am being taken, other times not so much.

The reality is that I did not notice the larger model ship because it was among many models of various designs. Besides, I think that it is a given that Starfleet is always looking for ways to upgrade their fleet of ships…better, bigger, smaller, use of different colours/shades

As far as the tribble scene was concerned, well, it had already been established that there was something unusual/unique about Khan’s blood. Dr McCoy explained that he wanted to know what that component was. He did something daring (possibly ethically questionable – but that’s another issue). If you watched his expression later, he was as stunned and surprised as anyone when he saw the tribble come to life…and so was I. I had been given little, or no reason, not to be. When Dr McCoy called for Kirk to be put in cryostasis, he still had no idea if this component would work on a lifeform as complex as a human being but he gave it a shot anyway…because that is the kind of person Dr McCoy is, especially when it comes to preserving/saving life.

This movie could be about what is “hidden in plain sight”, like the distinct possibility that the saboteur was the man overseeing the loading of the new torpedoes.

848. Who cares - September 30, 2013

@Bob Orci. Bob nice to see you come back, I had a somewhat random question for you regarding potential future Star Trek TV series(es).

I was wondering, since we have seen that Starfleet has a Judge Advocate General (JAG) office, in “Measure of a Man” and “The Drumhead” among others, as well as things like the Office of Temporal Investigations, and therefore presumably has a Criminal Investigation Service as well. Has anyone pitched CBS on an idea that could be termed “Star Trek meets NCIS” or Starfleet Criminal Investigation Service?

Maybe have the show center on the “Major Case” unit at Starfleet Headquarters, or Utopia Planitia, or any major Federation Planet really. Stories could take them to other planets, just as stories on NCIS take the team to other countries, a lot of the same types of plots would work as well, they could hunt criminals from the “Eugenics Underground” (the people who did Bashir’s work), smugglers and cons like Harry Mudd and the guy who kidnapped Data (“The Most Toys” IIRC), Klingon (or Romulan, Cardassian, or other) spies, and so on.

If it was a Prime Universe show I could easily see Dorn’s Worf as the “Gibbs” of the team, following him retiring from Starfleet (as he presumably had already stepped down as Ambassador since he was on Enterprise in Nemesis).

A show in the new timeline would be fine too, just to be clear about what I am saying, I want more Trek on TV any way I can get it, for that matter I want to be able to get the new timeline Enterprise on Star trek Online too, lol.

Well anyhow, I really just wanted to share the idea, LLAP Bob.

849. Keachick - September 30, 2013

#833 – “Im injecting Khan’s blood into a dead tribble”. Oh.. Uh..why?

Dr McCoy did explain what and why he was doing it. It was clearly stated via the vocal chords of Karl Urban. I think that seeing the tribble etc caught his eye and felt instant surprise and curiosity which prompted to ask the question. Sometimes that can happen.

850. TUP - September 30, 2013

@847 But now you’re making excuses for what the writer has apparently deemed an error. If you can do that, then no plot hole or logic leap will ever be too great for you to shrug and say “meh, who cares”.

I dont think its “smart” if a viewer has to fill in all the blanks. We could all come up with ways to explain the abomination that was Generations, but we shouldn’t have to.

851. Disinvited - September 30, 2013

#761. Basement Blogger – September 29, 2013

A Utopian society is one thing, but justification for lax security??? This society has neutral zones (implying wars were still being fought), and the Nero attempted destruction of the Federation homeworld itself. If security was that lax why was Nero bothering with torturing Pike so he could get around it? For that matter why is there a whole redshirt uniformed division of the Federation called “Security” if their Utopian ways cause them to have so little recourse to it in response to those recent events?

#789. Jack – September 29, 2013

If you mean it is a an idle form of rebuttal, then I’d concur?

852. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - September 30, 2013

Memo to everyone here:

For those others of you who did not like STID,

Can you please let us know if you saw the movie only once, and if during that showing, were you paying attention enough to remember major events, etc.?

Please be honest. I legitimately want to get a sense here of how knowledgeable the critics of STID are here?

For those of us who liked the movie, most of have have seen it multiple times, and thus are decently educated on the contents of the movie. So conversely, I want to make sure we have a level playing field here in trying to identify fans who did not like it, but who are legitimately knowledgeable about what happened in the movie — to be able to participate in an adult, educated discussion with those of us “fan experts” on STID who either did or did not like the movie.

For people who didn’t bother to see the movie or who didn’t pay attention to the movie, those of us on both sides of STID, should treat those peoples comments with a grain of salt.

I think this is reasonable.

853. TUP - September 30, 2013

@849 I cant recall off-hand what Bones said. I believe he simply told Kirk what he was doing, not why. Why it would even occur to him to inject blood into a dead tribble is odd enough.

Kirk interrupting a tense exchange with Khan to ask why Bones was doing was just so heavy-handed. It was a flahing neon sign saying “FORESHADOW! FORESHADOW! PAY ATTENTION! THIS IS IMPORTANT”. It could have and should have been done much more delicately. because the second Kirk was dying, EVERYONE was thinking “TRIBLLE!” It was too much. Far too much.

854. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 30, 2013

Re: Movie watching.

Most people give a review of a movie after watching it just once, and most of those people paid close attention while they were watching. That is how movies are reviewed by respected critics and casual viewers alike.

While impressions from first viewings are very important and do count for a lot (hey, they determine whether or not you view again or recommend a film to your friends and/or followers…) they are not everything.

However, I would ask that if we are all supposed to be outlining our viewings/viewing experiences and practices here, that for those of you who liked the film, can you say whether or not your like of the film is based off of what actually happened in the film and not because of it reminding you of “how things were” in another timeline, and not because of things you yourself (or comics/interviews/DVD extras) created as “fill in” material for the things that either weren’t explained or didn’t make sense to other people in STID?

This would help in determining whether or not your responses allow for an educated discussion on the facts of the film. Anything less should also be taken with a grain of salt…

I think this is only fair.

855. Keachick - September 30, 2013

#820 Cygnus – “I saw the movie twice in the theater. Which is more than it deserved.”

Holy shit. You say that you actually saw the movie TWICE and still did not know which ship crash-landed…LOL….:)…:(

#792 – “Mmh, I never said Carol was working with her father…”
I never said she was working with her father either.

“All the screaming in all-caps and the tirade”
No, dear, I emphasized the words, “us, the viewers” because that is what I think people, like you, have not noticed. In other words, the viewers are shown and told things by a particular character, in this case Carol Marcus, that other parties (ie Kirk and Enterprise crew – those “need to know” people) are not privvy to.

Another instance is the scene where Harrison/Khan tells Kirk and Spock what happened when he and his crew were found by Marcus. The “crocodile tears” that other people here refer to, were NOT seen by Kirk or Spock, because when Khan was relating his story and feelings about his crew, “family”, he had his back to Kirk and Spock (ie the “need to know” people). They could not properly see/hear his tears, his pain, only us, the viewers. And yet, so many people missed it…”crocodile tears” only make sense if they are seen by Kirk and Spock, but they weren’t. I think that is the point.

A thought just occurred – in both those scenes, Kirk, Spock et al were left in (partial) darkness…Bob Orci – care to comment?

856. Keachick - September 30, 2013

#850 – Rubbish. I don’t need to make excuses for anyone.

I am relating how I see/saw the film.

Holy shit!

857. Who cares - September 30, 2013

@Keachick. When Kirk wakes up McCoy doesn’t tell him how long he was in the cryotube, he does say that once the serum took hold he was still in a coma for two weeks, he also says that after they caught Khan he (McCoy) synthesized a serum from Khan’s blood, even with the tribble he stated he was injecting it with Khan’s platelets, not simply his blood, so maybe Khan’s platelets to reverse necrosis and so on, add a little Cordrazine (still a highly dangerous stimulant in the TNG era, its mentioned a few times, the stuff that made McCoy flip out in “City on the Edge of Forever”), throw in a little of the “standard anti-radiation drug” from “The Deadly Years” , and you have a good start towards a serum to save Kirk.

Also according to the bedside monitor Kirk’s attending physician during his coma was Dr. Boyce, Pike’s doctor from “The Cage”, whether he ever served with Pike in the new timeline is unknown, naturally.

858. Cygnus-X1 - September 30, 2013

843. K-7 – September 30, 2013

Wow!

Another person who’s been bothered by my criticism of STID has now found a “reason” why everything I’ve said is totally invalid. Well, good for you!

And hey, I’ll give you even more reasons: It’s been a long time since I’ve watched ST:Generations. Now you can dismiss everything that I’ve said about that movie, too. Maybe it was actually the best Star Trek movie ever made!

I actually do own a copy of ST’09, however (I bought it mainly to see the Diora Baird deleted scene). So, I guess that means that you’ll have to regard as valid everything I’ve said about ST’09, right?

Anyway, I think I’ve got the record now of number of personal insults hurled at one person here.

But you are misquoting me. I said that I saw STID twice in the theater all the way through.

Keep up the sleuthing, though! Bang up job!

859. Keachick - September 30, 2013

#853 – “Kirk interrupting a tense exchange with Khan to ask why Bones was doing was just so heavy-handed. It was a flashing neon sign saying “FORESHADOW! FORESHADOW! PAY ATTENTION! THIS IS IMPORTANT”. It could have and should have been done much more delicately. because the second Kirk was dying, EVERYONE was thinking “TRIBBLE!” It was too much. Far too much.”

What an utterly presumptuous post. Just who is “EVERYONE”? It is curious that you see the scene as being “so heavy-handed” and yet you can’t remember Dr McCoy’s reply.

Actually, Dr McCoy’s reply went something like this – I am injecting some of Khan’s blood into the necrotic tissue of this tribble because I have never seen any blood with such regenerative properties as his and I want to find what the hell it is.

Dr McCoy was conducting a radical experiment and he had no idea what the results might be…So far, all we had seen is that a portion of Khan’s blood managed to save the life of a little girl who had just died or was very near death. It is also unlikely that Dr McCoy would even have known about this event at this point.

Maybe it was a big shout-out to viewers, but that is merely your opinion, or perhaps more accurately described as presumptuous posturing.

860. Cygnus-X1 - September 30, 2013

855. Keachick – September 30, 2013

—Holy shit. You say that you actually saw the movie TWICE and still did not know which ship crash-landed…LOL—

It’s indicative of how much I cared about what was happening in the movie by the end of it. Also I saw it twice in May. The less meaningful parts of the movie have had several months to fade.

861. Vultan - September 30, 2013

Yes, it was lazy, derivative, pointless, cheap reusing the reactor scene from TWOK. But in all fairness, the Trek movie series has been lazy for a long time, trying to recapture the magic in that 1982 movie over and over again. It’s come to the point where it’s something fans expect. Who’s the villain? What’s the big ship? Why’s he out for revenge?

I hope Nick Meyer gets a check for each of these movies.

862. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 30, 2013

“I emphasized the words, “us, the viewers” because that is what I think people, like you, have not noticed. “

I noticed, and my idea of Carol possibly being some sort of double agent is still plausible if they decide to go that route. It’s also possible (even likely) she wasn’t working alone if she is. Who the saboteur(s) was and why he/she (or they) did what s/he did is never actually answered within the film, so she’s a good candidate.

Unless Orci wants to say that she was never Section 31 (which would be interesting to me considering her father assigned her to the ship as an “extra” weapons expert that just happened to deal with aspects of his “secret project” to start a war with the Klingons) and that she’s in the clear, I’ll continue to see her as a suspect.

863. crazydaystrom - September 30, 2013

I’d said I would not purchase the STID blu ray. But the Trekkie in me is weakening my resolve. My birthday’s a couple of weeks (weaks?) away and, and…and OMG! I’ve rationalized more bizarre things than purchasing a movie from my most beloved franchise. Star Trek Lives! Will the next outing thrill me to no end? Or at least allow me to say “That’s more like it!”? TBD

The fiftieth being honored with (at least the announcement of) a new Star Trek television show seems right now like more than I should hope for. And yet I do. “…strange new life and new civilizations. To boldly go…”, the stuff of my dreams for nearly half a century. Warp speed! Make it so. Thrusters on full. Punch it!

It would seem my ‘autumn melancholia’ has set in. ‘More sweet than bitter. More bitter than sweet.”

864. crazydaystrom - September 30, 2013

An awesome sounding new TOS non-fiction ‘making of’ book has been announced and that’s more like it! I miss those. Happy birthday to me!

865. Basement Blogger - September 30, 2013

@ 851

The point Disinvited is this. Stop nitpicking Star Trek Into Darkness to death. We can take any film and nitpick it death. As far as Nero, maybe you forgot this litte fact. He was defeated and did not speak for the Romulans. So maybe the Federation let its guard down. And yeah there’s security forces but they’re like police. The guy who wants to put Starfleet on war footing is Admiral Marcus.

Again the point is that there’s no need for the writers to explain how Khan gets a ship up there to attack the meeting. This type of nitpicking is based on factual assumptions of the critics not of the general filmgoer.

Let’s do this again. I can nitpick the greatest science fiction movie of all time. 2001: A Space Odyssey. I can use my set of assumptions just like some of you here. Here’s one pick. Why didn’t Bowman just send a probe into the Monolith rather than fly his pod kamikaze style into it? See you can take any movie and nitpick it death.

866. Cygnus-X1 - September 30, 2013

———————A Momentary Lapse of Reason———————

846. Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle – September 30, 2013

Do you think that I should put up some posts with extremely detailed information about STID, like the patterns of the sets, exact dialogue, etc…— excruciating minutiae—and then reaffirm all of my previous criticism in order to “re-establish credibility?”

Would that be constructive to Trekdom? I suppose it would be less effort than addressing comments dismissing everything I’ve said on the basis of my memory lapse regarding the action sequences at the end of the movie…

If I do that, do I then get to go on a vicious personal attacking spree of all of my critics?

Get ready for some payback, MJ, K7 and umm whomever else…

You better start watching STID 24/7 because…

NOW IT’S ON.

867. MJB - September 30, 2013

Can we move on and talk about something different?

868. Cygnus-X1 - September 30, 2013

836. Who cares – September 30, 2013

—@Cygnus, I forgot part of what I wanted to say earlier, as I said Nemesis is canon, just like “superblood” due to genetic engineering has been canon since season 2 of TNG, when Picard and his crew encountered a group of genetically engineered people whose blood had antibodies that were capable of leaving their bodies and becoming an airborne age accelerating disease.—

Well, that would be a different superblood than Khan’s, so it’s not exactly canon. But there were several problems with Khan’s magic blood. It’s actually a great issue for PLOT HOLE -or- BAD SCIENCE.

But first, I’m gonna go watch STID 10 times.

869. Who cares - September 30, 2013

@859. Very close Keachick, he said platelets not blood, but he did say Khan’s cells regenerate like nothing he had ever seen, and he wanted to see what effect they would have on necrotic tissue.

870. Keachick - September 30, 2013

#862 – “which would be interesting to me considering her father assigned her to the ship as an “extra” weapons expert”

Where was it said that Carol’s father assigned her to anything? We may assume that but it is not in evidence. If you mean that Carol’s father assigned her to the Enterprise, well, that is wrong. Admiral Marcus had no idea that Carol was on the Enterprise. She came aboard using an alias in order to find out what was *different* about these new torpedoes, why they were being put on the Enterprise and why she had been denied access to the kind of information that as a weapons technology expert she would normally have been privvy to.

As for her being some kind of “double agent” – that is just so convoluted and borders on well, the daft. What is it that you cannot handle about how Carol Marcus has been written and presented to us, the viewers?

871. Keachick - September 30, 2013

Cygnus – Quit being an arrogant, sarcastic ass.

Nobody is saying that anyone has to watch STID 24/7 or be able to quote every little piece of dialogue, but you need to know fundamental stuff like which ship crashed etc, no matter how turned off, bored, duh… you became. This is important if you wish to converse about a movie, ESPECIALLY if you feel compelled to be more disparaging about a movie than positive.

Actually, I have read (not necessarily on this site) that some Trek fans have proudly claimed that they can repeat, word for word from memory, whole screeds of dialogue from various Star Trek series and movies. I don’t know but that almost feels like excessive/obsessive perhaps?

872. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

829. Ahmed – September 30, 2013

@ 823. dmduncan – September 30, 2013

“Ahmed, I believe, was the one who told Bob his film was “dumb.” It was purely emotive language, signifying no objectively verifiable features of the film, intended to say to Bob “I don’t like what you did and I want you to feel bad about it.””

Nope, my response was this:

***

Ahmed, I know it’s hard to keep track of everything we say especially when things get heated, but you did indeed call STID “dumb.”

Here is the link:

http://trekmovie.com/2013/09/01/star-trek-is-broken-here-are-ideas-on-how-to-fix-it/

And here is your entire post:

344. Ahmed – September 2, 2013

@ 339. Spock’s Bangs – September 2, 2013

“338, Dude you were given the exact amount of respect that you deserved!”

Hey moron, stop kissing other people’s asses & go read my original post #315 to which Bob replied with his F**K OFF.

In my post, I didn’t call him names or anything, just saying what I thought about his dumb movie.

***

In addition, Ahmed, your original response to Bob of “what plot?” was indeed flippant.

Say you didn’t like the plot and you would be on firm ground as an expert regarding your own opinion. But to suggest that there WAS no plot was a trollish comment. Bob engaged you seriously with a question and you preferred to say something mean spirited and insulting.

And I did read with humor the poor-li’l-ole-innocent-me routine you put on after Bob left.

We are all over that episode now and I’m not mentioning it to bring it all back alive; but to avoid that kind of thing in the future it pays to be aware of how things went sour.

873. Ahmed - September 30, 2013

@ 871. Keachick – September 30, 2013

“Cygnus – Quit being an arrogant, sarcastic ass.”

I’m sorry but can you, just for once, state your views without restoring to name calling & insulting others in the process ?

874. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 30, 2013

#870

Wow. I could counter this person’s “views,” but I will not. She can continue in the direction of name-calling and insulting on her own. As I’ve stated before, I will not stoop to that in order to get my points across. And what’s really sad is when someone stoops to that and they still don’t do a good job of getting their, in some cases faulty, points across…

Some people need to calm down and remember that this was just a movie.

875. Marja - September 30, 2013

733 Cygnus, ‘Peter Weller’s performance in STID has been largely taken for granted. I found him quite effective, and, as one reviewer said, Weller had just the right amount of a**hole in his tone when he called Kirk, “son.” ‘ I cannot agree enough. While Pike was an example of a great senior officer [one you’d follow into hell and back], Marcus was more of an example of a senior officer with great political connections or other power outside of his service rank. And I had to smile in rueful recognition at the “Speak up son” and “Well, shit. You talked to him” lines and Weller’s delivery. Weller was GREAT.

“If Marcus is the main villain and his role is to illustrate the moral that it’s wrong go outside of the law and to abuse people, even evil dangerous psychopaths like Khan and his buddies, and even for the purposes of protecting humanity from a mortal threat, then that lesson is weakened by spending so much of the movie’s time showing us just how dangerous and treacherous Khan really is. By the end of the movie, we are not sympathizing with Khan and against Marcus for having abused him and his buddies. Khan is obviously an incredibly dangerous menace whom we would rather see dead.”

“However, if the lesson is something along the lines of “once a deceitful dangerous psychopath, always a deceitful dangerous psychopath,” then that lesson is weakened by the movie’s indictment of Adm. Marcus as a ruthless military leader operating outside of the law and lacking respect for certain fundamental human rights. Marcus should never have thought that he could control Khan, and the issue here is Marcus’ hubris.”

Well, yes, but mightn’t we draw a parallel to the European/US “changes” wrought in the Middle East in the early-mid 20th century? The fact that our countries manipulated borders and events in the M.E. to serve our own ends? And the fact that by doing so, we awakened the sleeping giant that is now represented by the terrorist movements in many of those Middle Eastern and African nations?

I hate to restate the obvious, but to me, Marcus represents [in part] the US/European role, and Khan, Bin Laden’s. And family is the central commitment of many Middle Eastern and African peoples. Families and clan ties mean much more than any border, especially borders established in the interests of outsiders. Marcus also represents fear of “the other” as evinced by his wanting to war on/eradicate the power of the Klingons. Not to mention G.W. Bush’s rush to war on Iraq for the sake of a continuing flow of oil to the West. [I know political opinions here may vary, but the “Pax Americana” and Cheney’s secretive “energy summit” in NeoCon circles and the White House respectively illustrate my point.]

749 IDIC, Oops, maybe that was me, or the commenter before me, whom I unwittingly copied? Peter Kirk was JTK’s nephew in “Operation: Annihilated!” and Peter David is one of my favorite Trek writers. Forgive my confabulation …

876. Marja - September 30, 2013

755 SUA “Knowing that something is “classified” does not mean the person knows the classified info.” Absolutely correct. Secret documents [in my day] had a red-and-white cover on them. You didn’t lift up that cover unless you had a “Need to Know.” And you couldn’t even get hold of such a document if you did not have the proper clearance.

“There’s no stretch to someone who’s Section 31 one being part of some scheme or ongoing back-up plan. It’s actually quite possible and makes sense…” And who’s to say whether the guy bringing the torpedoes on board wasn’t the saboteur? He probably was Section 31.

761 Bernie, “Trekkers, not everything needs to be explained. I’ve already had no problem with Khan using an aircraft to attack Starfleet headquarters. I’ve said this before. Utopian society; lax security. Could be a Federation craft that Khan stole.” True, and even if the security isn’t lax, Starfleet security codes might be turned off [or at least “think” nothing’s amiss] if an aircraft [such as Khan used] is broadcasting the proper answering code. I do think the Security force was a bit long in coming [you’d think an aircraft THAT close to the HQ building would arouse suspicion, if not all the shooting]. But Kirk found a way to take down Khan’s aircraft, so … quick-witted heroism from Kirk, as is characteristic for him!

877. Basement Blogger - September 30, 2013

@ 820

Cygnus says,

“By the end of the movie, it didn’t really matter which ship was crashing into SF or the choreography of the chase sequence with Spock and Khan. The TWOK death scene rip-off, magic blood plot hole, and emotionally unglued (yet again) Spock by that point had rendered me numb. ”

Wow. In the past, you’ve made some legitimate criticisms of Star Trek 2009 but now you’re really hurting your cause. Because frankly, at some point in Star Trek Into Darkness you hated it so much you didn’t bother watching the whole thing. That’s not objective. And frankly some of your criticism here is without merit. Let’s go over a couple of your points, shall we?

1. It didn’t matter to you which ship crashed into SF. Really? Did you fall asleep after Kirk and Khan boarded the Vengeance.? Here’s the point. One, if it was the Enterprise then all your dreams come true because the crew is dead and you can dance happily at the end of Abrams Trek. Two, Khan steers the Vengeance towards Starfleet headquarters. Why? He’s got such rage at what Starfleet has done to him and his people. And frankly I can understand why. Good writing by Bob and the team. This is not a mustache twirling villain.

By the way, I’m assuming that you do watch some Star Trek. You do know that Starfleet headquarters is in San Francisco? Or did you stop watching the multiple episodes that depicted the location of Starfleet before they got to that point?

2. You keep bringing up the “magic blood plothole.” One it’s not a plot hole. Again, a plot hole is something essential and that is not explained. I’ll repeat this example. Villain Storm Shadow dies in the first G.I. Joe movie. He reappears in the sequel without explanation. Got it? Two, Khan’s recuperative abilities come from canon and it’s time to debunk your criticism.

In Star Trek Into Darkness, the film explains that Khan is some type of superman. Khan, himself says he’s been genetically engineered. But is there something in the canon that indicates that Khan’s body can regenerate himself and others? Yes there is.

From TOS episode, “Space Seed.” Kirk compliments McCoy on saving Khan’s life but McCoy says he had nothing to do with it.

McCoy: “SOMETHING INSIDE THIS MAN THAT REFUSES TO ACCEPT DEATH.”

McCoy then marvels at Khan’s heart.. Then Kirk says this.

“An improved breed of human.”

Okay, what can we conclude here? One, Khan is a superhuman. Two, he’s got remarkable almost miraculous recuperative abilities. These are biological. Bob Orci and the other writers could easily and logically extrapolate some of these recuperative abilities to Khan’s blood. Since this is based on canon, it’s not a plot hole.

3. If you leave or ignore a movie that initially disappoints you then you may miss the best parts of a film. Here’s an example. I was watching “The Naked City” , (1948) a film noire classic. I was initially disappointed in its corniness. Hated producer Mark Hellinger’s god like narration.

But if I stopped watching it, I would have missed why The Naked City is now part of the Library of Congress’s Film Registry. I would have missed the reason of why the murder victim was killed. It’s all too human. I would have missed Barry Fitzgerald’s transformation from a kindly old man to a cop who has a steel trap for the criminals. More importantly I would have missed Jules Dassin’s direction and William Daniels cinematography. I would have missed the beauty of angles, the light and shadow. It’s fantastic stuff.

So you see, giving up on a movie due to some hatred will cause you to miss some great things that come later.

878. Red Dead Ryan - September 30, 2013

Cygnus-X1,

You seem to have anger management issues here. Throwing your weight around and attacking others is no way to mend fences.

I get it — you saw the movie twice and forgot whether it was the Vengeance or Enterprise that crashed into San Francisco Bay — but the correct way to carry yourself here is simply to admit that you misremembered a scene and move on instead of responding angrily to those who pointed out your error.

879. Marja - September 30, 2013

799 Jai, re: shout-outs to SWars – JJ better put Star Trek references into his SWars movies then! It’s only fair! But, knowing Disney … : (
817 Duncan, “That model is deliberately put there as a harbinger and it therefore has a structural purpose in the story which you might not find happening in a similar real world equivalent of that scene, so the criticism of that model misses the point of that model, in my view … There is a danger in comparing too closely the dramatic devices of a movie and real world logic. We are not looking at a real world in a movie, and real life does not neatly unfold as a story in a movie. Movies “talk” to us differently than the real world does, so the logic of why x, y, or z is there is not always comparable between life and art … As far as the tribble and the blood—those two things were tied together. The tribble was there to show the life saving properties of the blood.”
While I certainly can pick up the “real world” reasons, I think many here are arguing for the idea that such things should fit into the world of STiD as well; in other words, while you may have a real-world reason for doing something, it had better be an element within the world of the story you’re telling. I can buy Marcus having the model on his desk. A ship in development. No one visiting his office would expect anything else – though they might wonder why it’s not the usual Starfleet color.

880. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

Attn: Kayla

Was my post moderated out of existence or is it waiting for approval?

881. Marja - September 30, 2013

818 TUP and 827 Duncan, For the record, Harlan Ellison got quite p’d off about the adaptation of his original script for “City.” He wanted to leave Kirk, Spock and McCoy stranded in the past.

And Roddenberry & co. told him that kinda wouldn’t work for a weekly series ….

882. TrekkieJan - September 30, 2013

You can watch something, not all that into it, and also be thinking of something else – and still be aware of what’s going on.

This is pretty frequent with me during action sequences. Some people find them exciting, I don’t. (The one action sequence I always watch, enthralled, is the ultra long fight in They Live by John Carpenter. Love that fight.)

There was nothing surprising in the movie after Kirk’s “death.” No subtle, last moment game-changing dialog… just the expected stuff and the wrap up. It might have been rich emotionally for some people, but did anyone here not see everything coming for miles, until the end…? Really…?

In my case, with this particular movie, my mind was very much occupied with the plot, which I did find…if not interesting, at least interestingly bewildering.

883. Tup - September 30, 2013

My point is not what the scene was about. It’s the scene itself was shoehorned in because they needed to hit us over the head with the foreshadow. It was very amateurish.

884. Marja - September 30, 2013

827 Duncan, Hahaha, the shuttles in “Enemy Within” were all being serviced! To make matters worse, they stated that the transporters could beam stuff DOWN but not up.

Seems awfully cold-hearted, you should pardon the expression, not to beam down some parkas and cold-weather tents … but this wouldn’t have served the “real-world” device of Sulu & party freezing to death. It was supposed to be a suspenseful subplot. Not!

Now THAT was lazy writing.

885. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

879. Marja

I think many here are arguing for the idea that such things should fit into the world of STiD as well; in other words, while you may have a real-world reason for doing something, it had better be an element within the world of the story you’re telling.

***

It is. The problem some have is over whether it ought to be there, but that fictional “real” world reason you want doesn’t replace its structural function.

Ideally we would not have known from the trailers going into the theater that there was such a ship so that it’s appearance would have been a true shock. But the fun of such a shock is when it comes after a clue you’ve been given that it’s coming and you miss the clue. The trailers blew the surprise. It was kind of hard to NOT know what that model was after you saw it 100 times in the trailers.

So regardless of whatever reason you want to impart for it being there within the fictional reality of the movie, it has a dramatic purpose that is aimed at the viewer’s experience which the former reason you imagine is really not relevant towards. If that reason were absolutely crucial to the story we would need to know it. We don’t know the reason because it’s not that important. Supply your own.

But it would have been much more effective if the marketing were different.

Part of what blows us away about The Sixth Sense was that ALL the clues we needed to figure out the ending were right in front of us and we missed them.

886. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

881. Marja – September 30, 2013

818 TUP and 827 Duncan, For the record, Harlan Ellison got quite p’d off about the adaptation of his original script for “City.” He wanted to leave Kirk, Spock and McCoy stranded in the past.

And Roddenberry & co. told him that kinda wouldn’t work for a weekly series ….

***

Well I’ve read the original City script Harlan won a Hugo for. He didn’t strand them there, but he did have Kirk, rather than McCoy, restrained from saving Edith. In fact, the ending of his original script was quite brilliant. Kirk tried to save Edith, setting up what would have been one of the series’ most poignant lines of dialogue, coming from Spock.

887. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

883. Tup – September 30, 2013

My point is not what the scene was about. It’s the scene itself was shoehorned in because they needed to hit us over the head with the foreshadow. It was very amateurish.

***

Nah, I disagree. I think you are blaming the movie for a mistake of the trailers.

When I first saw that model I knew what it was because I saw it 100 times in the trailers. If I hadn’t been so familiar with the trailers, it’s likely I would have noticed with some excitement a previously unseen model ship, but I also probably would have forgotten it by the time the real ship appeared, and I probably would have had a Eureka! moment in realizing the model was not just some cool detail but a harbinger of things to come.

888. Marja - September 30, 2013

Whew. Feelings are running high up in here.

Can we just take it as a given that some people can see a movie and pick up many of the story faults because they may be writers themselves? Or astute at picking up certain problems with something because they think logically?

I’m not referring to any specific poster here. Some people miss huge things, or things that loom large to other viewers. For example, so many folks were caught up in comparing the reactor room scene with TWOK they were “taken out of” the movie.

For myself, I was so caught up in the emotion and acting, while I noticed the similarities, nothing was spoiled for me until Spock shouted, “KHAAANN!” instead of just a simple, “NOOO!” The “Khan” specific was just … overdoing it.

Can we please address each other respectfully without using terms like “ass” and “moron” and worse?

We were doing so well for awhile. :(

889. TrekkieJan - September 30, 2013

886. dmduncan, 881. Marja

Well I’ve read the original City script Harlan won a Hugo for. He didn’t strand them there, but he did have Kirk, rather than McCoy, restrained from saving Edith. In fact, the ending of his original script was quite brilliant. Kirk tried to save Edith, setting up what would have been one of the series’ most poignant lines of dialogue, coming from Spock.

I had the pleasure of hearing Harlan Ellison in a live talk a few years ago and he was still angry. He refused to talk about City, even urged by a fairly small and encouraging audience.

There’s an entire book about the incident, which includes the original script. I think it’s out of print now, but you can still find copies.

I think Gene’s memory would sometimes slip in later years about the reasons he wanted changes in the script – Scotty dealing drugs (which of course wasn’t in the original script), etc.

890. Marja - September 30, 2013

Duncan, Sorry, bad recollection on my part. Do you have the shooting script, or Ellison’s original concept, before he wrote a script? My impression was that he wanted Edith to live, thus unwinding the history of the future.

891. MJB - September 30, 2013

My theory is that the nuTrek Haters have come out of the woodwork AGAIN because Mr. Orci is back reading these posts. Gutless haters lash out thinking they’ll get under Orci’s skin…AGAIN!! But I think Bob Orci has learned from that episode so his responses will be a bit toned down (i.e. ‘lazy viewers’ – LOL).

892. Marja - September 30, 2013

873 Ahmed, Keachick is not the only poster using obnoxious terminology for other people. This is not directed at you, btw, it’s my observation of the tone of posts over the last day or so.

893. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

890. Marja – September 30, 2013

I have the book that {889. TrekkieJan – September 30, 2013} is referencing. In it Ellison tells all. Or at least all that he wants us to know.

894. Marja - September 30, 2013

Duncan, “Part of what blows us away about The Sixth Sense was that ALL the clues we needed to figure out the ending were right in front of us and we missed them.” Ha! My friend didn’t – he’s very attentive to how men dress. And he noticed that detail! Not to mention, his logical mind took the boy’s statement “I see dead people” and went with it. He just blew me away!

I think more people have been complaining about the TRIBBLE RE-ANIMATED! scene than the Vengeance model.

Abrams purposely used highlights of the movie and mixed them up as a means of misdirecting the audience so they’d be surprised when they saw the movie. Many of us were not clear on which ship was crashing into SFBay until the debut. There were a few who realized it wasn’t Enterprise, but I wasn’t sure.

895. Marja - September 30, 2013

885 Duncan, “So regardless of whatever reason you want to impart for it being there within the fictional reality of the movie, it has a dramatic purpose that is aimed at the viewer’s experience which the former reason you imagine is really not relevant towards. If that reason were absolutely crucial to the story we would need to know it.”

Yes, that’s what I was saying before. The structural purpose MUST ALSO be a valid story element in the fiction. If it hits us over the head, it seems to invalidate part of the story by “hanging a lantern on” the mechanistic element.

896. Ahmed - September 30, 2013

——————————-

Exclusive: J.J. Abrams Apologizes for His Lens Flares

There’s two things we know for sure about director J.J. Abrams: he won’t tell you a damned thing about his movies, and he really loves lens flares. Lens flares are a photographic effect that create a haze in the motion picture image you see in films like Star Trek, Super 8 and Star Trek Into Darkness, and Abrams’ love of the visual technique has been widely noticed, and often mocked, by fans of his movies.

So when CraveOnline cornered J.J. Abrams on the red carpet for the Star Trek Into Darkness Blu-ray release party, we had to ask him… What’s up with those lens flares? His answer may be the most surprising thing he’s done in years. He apologized:

“I know I get a lot of grief for that,” says Abrams. “But I’ll tell you, there are times when I’m working on a shot, I think, ‘Oh this would be really cool… with a lens flare.’ But I know it’s too much, and I apologize. I’m so aware of it now. I was showing my wife an early cut of Star Trek Into Darkness and there was this one scene where she was literally like, ‘I just can’t see what’s going on. I don’t understand what that is.’ I was like, ‘Yeah, I went too nuts on this.’”

“This is how stupid it was,” J.J. Abrams added. “I actually had to use ILM [Industrial Light & Magic] to remove lens flare in a couple of shots, which is, I know, moronic. But I think admitting you’re an addict is the first step towards recovery.”

897. Marja - September 30, 2013

893 Duncan, “at least all [Ellison] wants us to know.”

Key words, there. Ellison was not known for sterling truthfulness about the incident.

OTOH I may have read something in which only Roddenberry’s recollection was used, but I recall from ST fans’ opinions in the early 80s that although they loved “City” they did not love Ellison, for a host of reasons. (Some regular SciFi fans also felt the same way about him.)

898. Marja - September 30, 2013

“… says Abrams. “But I’ll tell you, there are times when I’m working on a shot, I think, ‘Oh this would be really cool… with a lens flare.’ ”

I worry that Abrams often says that, omitting the part about the lens flares. “Oh! This would be really cool – since Kirk is a womanizer – let’s put him in bed with two alien ladies.” or “Damon, cool idea! Yeah, let’s have Spock yell ‘KHAAANN’” ….

I’m glad his wife called him on the lens flares [along with so many fans]. There were times in ST09 that I could not see the actors’ faces – crucial in a film! I like that he admits he’s addicted : )

899. Marja - September 30, 2013

Forgive me if this is a double post …

Re my #794, AMENDMENT : “characters discussing morality and implications of actions is one of the most precious things in Trek – and one very admirably done by O&K.” “One very admirably done when O&K are given the time” – which is precious little, b/c of the requirement for so much Action! Destruction! Cruel fighting!

798 SUA, “He spoke on the bridge in STID, iirc.” Yes, indeed GATT spoke, in an electronically enhanced voice. That’s why I thought perhaps he could be a human with cybernetic aids [my headcanon explanation].

900. Basement Blogger - September 30, 2013

@ 866

Cygnus says,

“If I do that, do I then get to go on a vicious personal attacking spree of all of my critics?

Get ready for some payback, MJ, K7 and umm whomever else…”

First, I have addressed your points. See @ 877. Second, I’m shaking behind my keyboard. :-) Third, you cry because you feel like you have been personally attacked. PULLLLLLLESSSSEEEEE!!! (Please,,,)

IF I may paraphrase Captain Decker. This is how I define hypocrisy. Here’s the evidence. You called some of us a bunch of sycophants. Unless there’s a rule you can personally attack us but we can’t criticize you then the evidence makes you a hypocrite. See link @ 487; fourth paragraph from the bottom of your long post.

http://trekmovie.com/2013/09/13/editorial-star-trek-is-not-broken/

Additionally , it seems like you can dish it out but can’t take it. We’re sycophants but if we criticize your logic then we’re personally attacking you. Cygnus, a long time ago, you made some legitimate criticisms of Star Trek 2009 but now your hatred of all things Bad Robot are hurting your arguments.

901. Ahmed - September 30, 2013

oops, forget to add the link

http://www.craveonline.com/film/interviews/569755-exclusive-j-j-abrams-apologizes-for-his-lens-flares

902. Ahmed - September 30, 2013

@ 898. Marja – September 30, 2013

““… says Abrams. “But I’ll tell you, there are times when I’m working on a shot, I think, ‘Oh this would be really cool… with a lens flare.’ ”

I worry that Abrams often says that, omitting the part about the lens flares. “Oh! This would be really cool – since Kirk is a womanizer – let’s put him in bed with two alien ladies.” or “Damon, cool idea! Yeah, let’s have Spock yell ‘KHAAANN’” …. ”

lol,

903. Phil - September 30, 2013

@852. I only saw it once. Well, it was on at the USO a couple of nights back, but I was busy, so that doesn’t count.

The nit-picking is a bit over the top, though. All this wailing and moaning about how all these supposed details have just ruined peoples lives is silly. As I’ve mentioned earlier, most people bring in some sort of intuitive knowledge to the theater, and if something seems plausible they don’t give it much thought. Thing is, most of these complaints pass the plausibility test, and I’d bet my sketchy recollection of the movie that I could toss one out for every nit-pick…..in a sentence or two, tops.

I’ll throw myself under the bus first. I’ve been very vocal that submergible Enterprise is bad. Real bad. Here’s the plausibility explanation: Airtight=watertight. Most folks have a recollection of Capt. Scully and his crashed airliner on the Hudson River and figure, why not?

Next?

904. TrekkieJan - September 30, 2013

893. dmduncan, 890. Marja

I have the book that {889. TrekkieJan – September 30, 2013} is referencing. In it Ellison tells all. Or at least all that he wants us to know.
I have it too, packed away. It’s the entire original script.

Edith still died, but it was Kirk who tried to save her. I believe SFDebris.com discusses some of the differences in the script in his review of City on the Edge of Forever?

Most of the changes were for budgetary reasons, and Ellison did have someone distributing a mind altering substance. Most were understandable changes.

The book doesn’t paint a very flattering picture of some of the people involved, particularly Shatner, who he says wanted to see the script to count his lines. (I can understand that – he was a leading man, looking after his livelihood – but it doesn’t sound good and didn’t impress Ellison.)

905. Marja - September 30, 2013

903 Phil, Well, call me gullible, but I thought it could take being underwater because of shielding : ) … and I think that was B Orci’s explanation.

Re: Personal Attacks

Unless someone calls someone else a name, or says things like “you’re obviously out of your mind b/c you believe thus-and-so,” accuses someone of whining or “kissing a**” or “you’re on drugs” – everyone here should remember this, PLEASE:

Disagreement with a point of view or opinion does not constitute a “personal attack.”

If we express our disagreements in debate terms or polite terms, I think we’ll all avoid heartaches and bellyaches.

Nicely and gently yours,

906. Who cares - September 30, 2013

@905. See I figured that Enterprise could take being submerged because the Xindi, who build submersible starships, became Earth allies in the 22nd century.

907. Keachick - September 30, 2013

I apologize for calling Cygnus an ass. However, I took his comments to be sarcastic and I agree with others who have criticized him for being very vociferous in his attacks against STID, only to find that this person did not bother paying enough attention to a movie that he was so keen to criticize. That comes across to me as arrogant.

Marja – “755 SUA “Knowing that something is “classified” does not mean the person knows the classified info.” Absolutely correct.”

This was not what was at issue. I merely pointed out a person, who neither the audience nor any of the Enterprise crew might have immediately noticed, the guy who would answer Scotty’s queries re the torpedoes with “Classified”. It was a way of identifying the person. That is NOT the same as saying that the guy knew what the classified information was. We were actually given no idea. All I wrote that it was a possibility that the same guy could have also been the saboteur.

It goes with the “hiding in plain sight” idea.

908. dmduncan - September 30, 2013

904. TrekkieJan – September 30, 2013

The book doesn’t paint a very flattering picture of some of the people involved, particularly Shatner, who he says wanted to see the script to count his lines. (I can understand that – he was a leading man, looking after his livelihood – but it doesn’t sound good and didn’t impress Ellison.)

***

Ellison’s recollections of Shatner are hilarious and very likely accurate. Doesn’t damage my affection for Shatner in the slightest.

And yes, Kirk tries to save Edith and is stopped. That difference is what allows Spock one of the most memorable lines of dialogue never recorded.

909. Spock/Uhura Admirer - September 30, 2013

876./888/899 Marja – September 30, 2013

“There’s no stretch to someone who’s Section 31 one being part of some scheme or ongoing back-up plan. It’s actually quite possible and makes sense…”

And who’s to say whether the guy bringing the torpedoes on board wasn’t the saboteur? He probably was Section 31.

I certainly never said he wasn’t, just that we don’t know and Carol’s still a suspect to me. For all we know they were working together… I don’t think we ever saw her give an answer as to why she was really on the ship and why she had to get there using trickery when Spock confronted her… Whatever her story was, it appears to have checked out because now she’s a member of the crew.

”Can we please address each other respectfully without using terms like “ass” and “moron” and worse?
We were doing so well for awhile. :(”

I agree. It would be nice if people didn’t feel the need to resort to that.

”798 SUA, “He spoke on the bridge in STID, iirc.” Yes, indeed GATT spoke, in an electronically enhanced voice. That’s why I thought perhaps he could be a human with cybernetic aids [my headcanon explanation].”

Okay, then I agree with you there. I thought when you suggested that his vocal capacity was destroyed that you meant he couldn’t speak at all. Thanks for the clarification. Now I see that you meant he couldn’t speak without help. As to his species/android status, your guess is a good (maybe even better) than mine… I just know that he looked a little different.
———————–

Re: Lens Flares

I like them, and I hope they’re still around for movie 3. I just don’t like it if they are constantly glaring over the actors. Some of us like Photoshop. So, for instance, I took a nice screen cap of Sulu in ST09. He looked great, but there was this bright magenta spot on his shirt (from the flares) that made it look like he dropped something on his shirt during lunch or something.

The frown upside down of it, though, was that I got practice on fixing that sort of thing. It was a little tricky. The fabric isn’t smooth; it’s a pattern so that’s harder to fix. It was good practice because you learn different methods of correction working on things like that.

910. McCoy's #3Fan - September 30, 2013

Dear Mr. Orci,

I think it’s awesome that you interact with the fans here. I have a request for the next ST film: please give McCoy more screen time and a larger role in the plot. It was Karl’s performance and his wonderful intro scene in ST09 that drew me back to trekdom, and I was bitterly disappointed that the good doctor was still on the periphery in STID. The character has been whittled down to his bones…

In her classic analysis Meaning in Star Trek, Karin Blair points out that McCoy is as important as Kirk or Spock. One STID reviewer wrote that the empty seat between K & S on the shuttle, with McCoy behind them, is symbolic of the time line still out of whack, the triumvirate still not formed–if that’s what it meant, it’s brilliant–and this gives me hope it may still materialize.

K, S & M are intriguing characters and the triumvirate endures in popularity. You can’t go wrong by honoring it.

911. boborci - September 30, 2013

since most of you did not listen to podcast, let me ask:

When Kirk screams “k,,,,,,,” does he mean it?

912. Dave H - September 30, 2013

@868 “But first, I’m gonna go watch STID 10 times.”

Hey look, Cygnus, YOU ARE THE ONE who claimed you though the Enterprise crashed into San Francisco at the end of STID, and then made some weird reference to not paying attention very well to the movie.

You said all this yourself. So please stop bitching about all of us supposedly persecuting your here. You are doing just a fine job of that yourself.

I don’t know which is more moronic:

(1) not really paying attention to a movie that post dozens of critiques on at a public website? or

(2) admitting publicly that you really didn’t even care that you did not pay attention to the movie you are constantly being critical of?

913. Dave H - September 30, 2013

correction:

(1) not really paying attention to a movie that you yourself post dozens of critiques on at a public website? or

914. Dave H - September 30, 2013

Bob,

Kirk did not mean it. He had already planned out the future action and subterfuge.

And the podcast was awesome — thanks! I listened to the whole thing.

Here’s better that Cygnus X-1 will ask you if that was Gene Roddenberry supervising the podcast. You know, he’s got some bad prescription glasses and a short attention span. LOL (I’m kidding!0

915. Who cares - September 30, 2013

@S/U Admirer re: Gatt 5000.

You said (to Marja)

“As to his species/android status, your guess is a good (maybe even better) than mine… I just know that he looked a little different.”

To borrow a term, my headcanon for him is that he is one of the androids from “I, Mudd”, or the other planet, you know Chapel’s ex, Roger Corby.

Even possibly the work of Noonien Soong’s father, since Enterprise tells us the Soongs have been working on creating an android since Arik Soong tuned his back on genetic engineering (Enterprise Augment 3 part, Arik played by Spiner), and with the acceleration of technology post-Narada incursion (and especially after the destruction of Vulcan), it is at least plausible that Noonian’s father could have created a Positronic Brain, which he was already working on, as the family is known to have gotten the inspiration from Issac Asimov (first Lore episode told me that) who created the term Positronic Brain.

Now I say Noonian’s father because Noonian himself was probably born in Kirk’s era, he was probably 20 years or so younger than Admiral McCoy when he died, medical care in isolated single building outposts on uncharted planets being somewhat sketchy, and Krik’s era is 80 years before Picard, roughly (and there is the 80 years later caption in Generations), so Noonian would be at best a child during Kirk’s time, but his father would be in his prime.

So anyway, yeah I have him tagged as an android until I am told differently, by Bob, or one of the other people who made the movie and actually know :), come on Bob tell me I’m wrong :)

916. Red Shirt Diaries - September 30, 2013

How can someone who posts like 10 times a day on stuff critical of STID not even care enough to be up to speed on what happened in STID? I don’t get it?

You are suppose to be the lead critic of STID here, but you don’t even know very basic plot details? wtf?

917. Marja - September 30, 2013

907 Keachick, “That is NOT the same as saying that the guy knew what the classified information was. We were actually given no idea. All I wrote that it was a possibility that the same guy could have also been the saboteur. It goes with the “hiding in plain sight” idea.”

Well, yes, it could be the same thing, depending on whether “Classified” Guy had a Need to Know. We don’t know if he did or not, as you say. IAW your theory, he could have had a Need to Know granted by Marcus, and could’ve been the saboteur.

912/913 DaveH, Over the last week or so Cygnus has made some very cogent observations of STiD. In the past, he has indeed been vociferous in his dislike for STiD, but his tone has changed from “I hate it” to “here’s why I don’t like [aspect].” I don’t always agree with his opinions, but I appreciate reasonable opinions backed up by evidence, whether they agree with my opinions or not.

As to his post in which he admits not remembering which ship crashed into SFBay, he also said in that same post that the KHAAANNN! scream bothered him so much he couldn’t pay attention to the rest of the movie. That’s about 8 minutes out of 2 hours. I think his observations before that time are legitimate enough, as are TrekkieJan’s [she viewed the movie with friends who got loud during the same KHAANNN! scene].

Before anyone jumps on me for “siding with” someone they’ve condemned, I am making an observation. Everyone here has a right to an opinion. I only wish we could be less condemnatory in voicing them. Indignation doesn’t give opinions more credence and nor do ad hominem attacks.

918. K-7 - September 30, 2013

@916 “How can someone who posts like 10 times a day on stuff critical of STID not even care enough to be up to speed on what happened in STID? I don’t get it? You are suppose to be the lead critic of STID here, but you don’t even know very basic plot details? wtf?”

Exactly — well said!

Do you hear that swishing sound?

That’s the sound of Cygnus X-1′s remaining credibility being flushed down the toilet.

919. K-7 - September 30, 2013

Marja,

Here is what you are missing. This guy goes out of his way to created some long running intellectual game here involving the STID plot, and posts dozens of posts on it, but then we come to find that he doesn’t even know the final 1/3 of the movie..and moreover, he proudly states that he refuses to watch it now as well.

I can’t take a person like this seriously. It’s like coaching a football team where you not only refuse to watch game film of the other team, but you publicly laugh it off and say the other team does not matter. It’s rude, it’s disingenuous, and it;s intellectually bankrupt.

I would NEVER post continually — day after day with multiple posts — on a movie that I admittedly only vaguely recalled the ending of. I guess I might post once or twice, but to post several posts daily for weeks like I was the defacto “lead critic” of a movie, when I hadn’t even bothered to assess the full movie and be familiar with the entire movie — NEVER would I dream of doing that. What fracking hubris? No way!

920. Red Shirt Diaries - September 30, 2013

@K-7 “I would NEVER post continually — day after day with multiple posts — on a movie that I admittedly only vaguely recalled the ending of. I guess I might post once or twice, but to post several posts daily for weeks like I was the defacto “lead critic” of a movie, when I hadn’t even bothered to assess the full movie and be familiar with the entire movie — NEVER would I dream of doing that. What fracking hubris? No way!”

You’ve hit here on the key point which really bothers me about this. It’s the condescension factor.

It’s like a smart, but lazy kid in school, who can still pull off getting A’s by using Cliff’s Notes, even though that’s intellectually dishonest, and the kid doesn’t truly understand the story. But the kid can get away with it, and that is more important than the substance of actually reading the book.

921. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - October 1, 2013

I would like to see Cygnus X-1 commit to watching the full movie before he shows up here with more criticism of it. That is just being honest and courteous to others who may disagree with him.

It’s a matter or respecting each other here and being intellectually honest and up front about the topics we are discussing — to ensure each other that we all have a level playing field of assessing the same topic — i.e., in this case, that each of us has actually seen and understood the full STID movie.

922. Marja - October 1, 2013

Well, guys, first, while I kind of see your point about missing part of a movie one has seen only once, I don’t think “KHAAANNN” precedes the final THIRD of the movie. Maybe the final 8 or 10 minutes?

Second, though I’ve seen ST09 fifteen times and STiD six times, I’ve gained a fuller understanding of them by reading the posts in this board. From Cygnus I’ve learned a little more about the physics applying to some of the films’ concepts [ST09 and STiD]. From TrekkieJan and Curious Cadet, I’ve learned a little more about good writing and the mechanics of plot, from Basement Blogger I’ve learned about cinema, and from many of you other guys I’ve learned lots of other interesting and valuable things.

I don’t think I fully understood the movie the first couple of times I saw it. People here have commented on things they noticed, and I’ve commented on what I noticed, and many of us noticed different things: things to be happy about and things that didn’t make us so happy. Some viewers had pretty clear ideas of the plot and its mechanics, strengths and weaknesses after only one viewing. My hat’s off to them. If they are able to rationally support their ideas about the film, why wouldn’t I read their opinions?

Some people are able to take in a great deal more of certain types of information than I am. Friends assure me that I simply have different strengths from other people. I don’t notice plot elements as much as Curious Cadet, for example, but I definitely notice emotional language and resonances as they apply to characters. Sure, I’m up front about this. Does this invalidate all my opinions?

Cygnus was up front about his dislike for the movie for quite a while. Sometimes he used ridiculously emotional language. Did you grant him credence at that time? Did I? Not necessarily. I looked at his posts, weighed what he said, “took the best and left the rest.” In the last couple of weeks I’ve really enjoyed some of his posts. Before he admitted he missed the last minutes of the film because he was seething, I think some people were somewhat accepting of his posts, if not his opinions.

Why should we invalidate everything someone says if they missed something or they disagree with our POV? Why not fill them in or debate with them?

I’m not a “JJ hater” nor an out-and-out “JJ lover,” yet I get something of value from reading the posts of folks who do not agree with me. For example, I’m not an atheist, but I listen to the late Christopher Hitchens’ interviews and debates with great pleasure, because [aside from his atheism] he had much of value to say and he expressed himself rationally – and beautifully. While he could dissect opinions with surgical precision and use irony and sarcasm, for the most part he didn’t attack people, only their opinions.

I don’t feel I get much value out of the emotional or insulting language posters use against each other. I don’t get much value from the “taking sides” wars either.

On the bright side, I have learned some great things from people here about strengths and weaknesses in rhetorical writing. : )

I think we could all take a lesson from Bob Orci’s posts, before and after “the brouhaha” – know when to step away from the keyboard, and apologize if we don’t step away in time.

923. Aurore - October 1, 2013

“Memo to everyone here:

For those others of you who did not like STID,
Can you please let us know if you saw the movie only once, and if during that showing, were you paying attention enough to remember major events, etc.?

Please be honest. I legitimately want to get a sense here of how knowledgeable the critics of STID are here?”
__________

To be honest, people familiar with what has been posted here since the movie was released are probably aware of the fact that my “complaints” never were about what some fans view as a rip-off of The Wrath of Khan or/and a rehash of other Star Trek movies etc…( although they are entitled to their opinion ).

The Wrath of Khan is not my favourite Star Trek movie.

Moreover, by the time I saw it, I already knew there had been other movies with the entire cast . Thus, the famous reactor scene did not move me the way it probably did many people, for instance.

(Space Seed never stood out as an outstanding episode for me. Besides, it is only online I discovered Khan was considered by many to be Kirk’s “Joker “.).

As stated before on previous threads, I haven’t watched the movie yet.( Which is why I never once discussed the plot of Star Trek Into Darkness.)

But, as I said on the “Into Darkness Open Discussion” thread, and since my posts on Khan essentially deal with casting issues, having seen the movie is not necessary in order to discuss that very aspect of the sequel in my opinion ; I was already doing so long before Mr. Cumberbatch was cast . At the time, there were discussions pertaining to the possible casting of… Hispanic actors…

“….For people who didn’t bother to see the movie or who didn’t pay attention to the movie, those of us on both sides of STID, should treat those peoples comments with a grain of salt.

I think this is reasonable.”

:)

For my part, I will keep on following great discussions such as this one, on this fascinating site!

924. dmduncan - October 1, 2013

911. boborci – September 30, 2013

since most of you did not listen to podcast, let me ask:

When Kirk screams “k,,,,,,,” does he mean it?

***

I don’t agree with the podcast guy. I think Kirk meant it.

True, Kirk was playing poker and he was running a deception, but his plan didn’t include mind controlling critters, the death of Terrell, or losing the Genesis Device.

So when he screams I think he means it. But it nicely sets up his trick to the audience by making us think he’s totally lost control of the situation.

925. boborci - October 1, 2013

910. Copy that:)

926. Arcadians - October 1, 2013

Hi Bob,
Glad to see you’re still on here interacting.
Thanks for STID… really enjoyed the movie. I’m a critic and a longstanding Trek fan and it ticked all the boxes for me. Bring on the next instalment!
I don’t know if you remember, but I mentioned the sudden passing of my father, John, – a fellow Trekkie – on this forum a couple of years ago, and you were good enough to pass on kind words.
We were so taken with your words, that my mother and I used them for his memorial plaque. (I hope that doesn’t seem too morbid!)
It seemed appropriate… and they were words that my dad would have appreciated.
Thanks for that… and thanks for bringing Trek back to the big screen.
Keep ‘em coming!
Best, Sean

927. Phil - October 1, 2013

@911. Well, in real time it was an emotional reaction to Khan’s taunting – recall Kirk mentioned earlier in the movie he didn’t like to lose, and here is Khan, believing he has the upper hand, rubbing it in. Of course, it’s also an example of Talking Villain Syndrome, but that’s a conversation to have over a beer somewhere.

Strategically, a different story. Kirk had already planned the landing party’s exit, so he had to sell it to not tip his hand. For it’s problems, WOK is a chess game between Kirk and Khan, both playing their hands to the extent that their skills would allow.

928. Curious Cadet - October 1, 2013

@911 boborci,

You and Lindelof are pretty clear that you think you gave the “Khan” yell more meaning than Kirk did in TWOK. Fine. I understand your point, and I respectfully disagree.

Kirk is not yelling Khan’s name because they are seemingly trapped. That interpretation completely misses the point. Prior to that moment, Khan is responsible for the abandonment of the Reliant crew on a planet incapable of supporting human life, torture and murder of the scientists on Regular 1, crippling the Enterprise, the death of Scotty’s nephew and many of his crew, the torture and death of Capt. Terrell and murder of his victim Jedda — and for all Kirk knows his friend Chekov, and has stolen Genesis, perhaps the most deadly ‘weapon’ in the galaxy until red matter, and that doesn’t even take into account opening old wounds of trying to painfully kill Kirk and take over the Enterprise in Space Seed, nor the real guilt for all the death and destruction Khan has wrought as a result of his neglegence since. Yes Kirk knows he is not marooned on the planet, but saying his cry of “KHAAAAAN!” was merely a contrivance to trick Khan and the audience trivializes all the death and destruction that has come before.

Whether Kirk channeled his pain into a strategic advantage, as he always does, it was genuine, and for Kirk as painful as that Spock felt in STID. What is it Khan said? I’ve hurt you and wish to keep on hurting you? One can say that his friendship with Spock trumps everything else, but does it really trump the death of his crew and destruction of his ship? Would Kirk ever sacrifice them for Spock? Or are they at least equal to him?

929. TUP - October 1, 2013

@Boborci Absolutely Kirk meant it. For all the reasons mentioned above. Just because he knew he wasn’t stranded (or hoped he wasn’t), doesnt diminish the pain, anger, guilt he was feeling. In fact, that was likely (I’d have to watch it again) the first Moment Kirk had to pause for a moment and consider everything that was happening.

PS I very much liked the Spock “Khan” yell especially how it was edited.

930. Curious Cadet - October 1, 2013

@926. Phil,
“Kirk had already planned the landing party’s exit, so he had to sell it to not tip his hand. For it’s problems, WOK is a chess game between Kirk and Khan, both playing their hands to the extent that their skills would allow.”

Respectfully, I don’t believe for a minute Kirk had to SELL anything to Khan. Khan speaks with the confidence of the superior intellect, assured that he had dealt a final blow to Kirk. For all we know Khan hit the end transmission button after his last scentence. Is it simply because Kirk yells into the communicator, rather than into the air that is causing the problem? The communicator represents Khan. Whether he’s even still listening is beside the point, that’s the representation of the source of Kirk’s anger.

You mention it is a chess game, but isn’t it really more of a poker game? There seems to be more bluffing, than anything.

931. Red Dead Ryan - October 1, 2013

Cygnus clearly lacks all credibility to comment on STID. If he doesn’t care enough to pay attention to what happens during the movie and yet proceeds to criticise it a hundred times, why should we take anything he posts seriously?

As for Kirk’s “KKHHAAANN!!!” scream in TWOK, it was genuine. Up to that point, Khan had the upper hand and was beating Kirk. Khan had taken control of Chekov and Terrell via mind-control creatures; taken the Reliant and abandoned the crew on Ceti Alpha V; badly damaged the Enterprise, killing a number of crewmen, including Scotty’s nephew; tortured and killed most of the Regula station crew; captured the Genesis device; and refused Kirk’s demand to meet face-to-face (ie, fight) on the station. Kirk was frustrated at the prospect of being in a “no-win” scenario, and so he “lost it” for a few seconds.

But the scream was also a way for Kirk to “blow off steam”, and regain his emotional balance, if you will. He would soon after gain the upper hand on Khan, and would be victorious, though obviously at a high cost (Spock’s death).

932. Gary 8.5 - October 1, 2013

911.
Yes, I think Kirk meant it.
But it wasnt, “I am stuck down here forever”..
It was more like
“You have succeeded Khan,
You have hurt my crew , my ship,
All who I care about,
But when I get my hands around your neck…”

933. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - October 1, 2013

@921 / Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle

“I would like to see Cygnus X-1 commit to watching the full movie before he shows up here with more criticism of it. That is just being honest and courteous to others who may disagree with him.”

That would seem like a very fair resolution to this issue. I would therefore encourage Cygnus X-1 to see STID again, and view the entire film in an alert, open-minded manner, and to be paying special attention to major plot details this time around.

“It’s a matter or respecting each other here and being intellectually honest and up front about the topics we are discussing — to ensure each other that we all have a level playing field of assessing the same topic — i.e., in this case, that each of us has actually seen and understood the full STID movie.”

Yes, the typical “meeting of the minds” when two Star Trek fans talk to each other about a Star Trek movie, assumes a level playing field where each fan actually understands the major events that happened in the said Trek movie. Otherwise one of the fans is being disingenuous to his/her counterpart.

934. Phil - October 1, 2013

Here is a review for Gravity. Note that speaks to the familiar, and the world the storytellers create. If it can be done here, it can be done with Trek.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/1/4788682/gravity-review

935. Gary 8.5 - October 1, 2013

Congrats on going three for three with Sleepy Hollow Bob!
I cant wait to see what you guys have planned for Halloween.

936. Red Dead Ryan - October 1, 2013

Also, the “scream scene” was the turning point in TWOK. Up until that point, Khan was cool, collected, and in control and command. But afterward, it was Kirk who exhibited controlled behaviour and rational thinking, while Khan descended into madness brought on by his obsession with Kirk. Khan began making strategic errors, and refused to listen to his fellow supermen.

And Kirk would then be able to exploit that for his gain.

937. Disinvited - October 1, 2013

#865. Basement Blogger – September 30, 2013

You picked a humdinger to nitpick. I was reading Clarke before I saw it. Definitely remember reading THE SENTINEL prior. It was the first science-fiction film meant to be supplemented by further publication if not the first film to be so designed. I read Clarke after. Saw the sequel. Read some more. Difficult to know if I could address your nit cold divorced of what came after and without knowing what you regard as part of its canon.

Shooting from the hip so to speak, my recollection is that to maximize data gathering through greater efficiencies the probes were all designed to function and feed through the AI with it in control, and with that disabled, Dave had no other option. Also, it seems to me that with HAL out there was some doubt as to how long the ship could be kept habitable but that may be some noise from 2010. My interpretation of the ending is Dave obviously lived his life into extreme old age in some alternate spacetime before he was given the option to be evolved into something greater or face his eminent extinction. A better question might be: why the aliens found it necessary to deprive him of his freedom as they certainly seemed capable of letting him live his life on Earth and THEN make him the same offer? I mean they waited millions of years, what would waiting handful of decades more have cost them? However, to them, they might not register monkeying around with him as being anything different than monkeying around with his ape progenitors. So we can conclude they weren’t restrained by any sort of “Prime Directive” and 2001 was not STAR TREK.

Barring that, I can only observe that asking long established fans of Trek not to nitpick it can only register as a non sequitur as, for us, it is part of the territory. And please note: that while I had trouble registering 2009′s effort, a nice SF film taken on its own, as something STAR TREK to me, I have no problem identifying 2013′s STID as definitely STAR TREK. In fact, even though, no doubt, many would disagree with me, I take that fans are bothering to “nitpick it to death” as a badge that it is being accepted as such in the wider fandom. I sure as heck didn’t go to the bother with NEMESIS.

938. Phil - October 1, 2013

@930. I think he did, and here’s why. Kirk knew enough about his ‘old friend’ to know the superior intellect would see through a deception. He also knew that the egomaniac would want to see (or hear) him crawl. Recall that when McGivers first came to Khans quarters, it wasn’t enough for her to tell him she wanted to stay, she had to beg. It’s not hard to spot those types of personalities, and Kirk is a sharp guy – Kirks response was genuine, just as Khan would have savored every moment of it.

Yeah, I’ll stick with the chess game analogy. Poker isn’t a bad one, either, but I don’t feel Kirk or Khan spent much time bluffing. WOK was a feature length version of Balance of Terror, the movie was all about Kirk/Khan. STID was an ensemble piece, because none of the history that drove Kirk/Khan in WOK exists in STID, so the producers had to create a series of emotional events to vest the audience interest in caring about what happened in the movie. Obviously, the reaction to those efforts was mixed, to say the least.

939. MJB - October 1, 2013

On a lighter note, check out how STID should have ended in this funny video (from the folks at ‘How it should have ended’):

http://bcove.me/8bhh31je

Bob Orci: I sure hope you and Alex are able to laugh at these!

940. Ahmed - October 1, 2013

@ 938. MJB – October 1, 2013

“On a lighter note, check out how STID should have ended in this funny video (from the folks at ‘How it should have ended’):

http://bcove.me/8bhh31je

LOL, this was hilarious.
Thanks for the link, MJB.

941. Keachick - October 1, 2013

#911 Bob Orci – I have to go back and listen to the podcast again (and yes, I did listen to ALL of it, first time round – with junior party hassling me for her computer time…:))

However, re Kirk’s scream “Khan!” – mostly it was a ruse, but people can scream (for instance) for a multitude of reasons. What Khan had done to the people at the space station and also to Captain Terrell and Chekov would have given Kirk reason to be upset and angry with Khan as well. However, bottom line, screaming Khan as he did, when he did was mostly a RUSE.

I have actually posted my thoughts on that TWOK scene some time ago on this site and clearly stated that Kirk screaming the name as he did was mostly a ruse. Some argued with me at the time, however I stand by my assessment.

I must get on with reading the rest of these posts – just come online…

942. Who cares - October 1, 2013

I have said it before but I never felt like Kirk’s Khan yell was powered by pure emotions. Yes he may have been angry, and he may have been trying to draw Khan down to him, but that didn’t change the fact that before he and the others beamed down to Regula he had already established a plan of action with Spock. The yell serves two purposes, one Kirk could read Khan’s voice, he could hear the satisfaction in his voice as he whispered “buried alive” and knew Khan believed he had him completely beaten. Remember Khan had no idea Kirk escaped until he heard “We tried it once your way Khan, are you game for a rematch?” over the comms.

Kirk could have easily slipped and given away that Enterprise was safe, or that he wasn’t trapped, or any number of other potential things which might have possibly drawn Khan down as Kirk had briefly wanted. “Giving in to rage” or seeming to allowed Kirk to let Khan think his victory was complete, increasing his confidence, which would also throw him further off balance later, when Kirk revealed himself to have escaped Regula.

That is how I have seen it since I was very young, so along about the second or third time I watched TWOK out of the hundreds of times I have seen it (quite literally, and true with all of them, except ST09 and STID, which is cause they have been around as long).

943. Who cares - October 1, 2013

Typo last sentence of post 941 (my last post).

reads:

except ST09 and STID, which is cause they have been around as long

should be

except ST09 and STID, which is cause they have not been around as long.

Also forgot to mention my parents believe that Kirk’s Khan yell was a ploy, and may have said something to that effect during some of my early viewings of TWOK, which may also contribute to my view.

944. Dave H - October 1, 2013

@933 “I would therefore encourage Cygnus X-1 to see STID again, and view the entire film in an alert, open-minded manner, and to be paying special attention to major plot details this time around.”

I agree. This would provide a positive resolution for everyone on this ongoing issue here with the credibility of Cygnus X-1′s remarks on STID. At this point, I have lost trust in believing what the guy is saying here.

945. Vultan - October 1, 2013

The best Khan scream.
And yes, I think he meant it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3xopNvnyps

946. TrekkieJan - October 1, 2013

Kirk’s Khan scream in TWOK was a ruse. You can kind of watch him wind up for a good one (imo.)

I did listen to the entire podcast, enjoyed most of it, but it was several days ago now and I don’t remember anything but some impressions. But I love creator commentary and for that reason got the iTunes version of STID so I could listen to the commentary track at some point.

I meant to rewatch STID last night, but some friends brought over Iron Man 3, which I hadn’t seen either.

A few comments ago I said I didn’t usually pay much attention to action scenes – but Iron Man 3 kept my attention to the end. And while you could see certain things coming, like Pepper’s not-death, it kept surprising me – with dialog as well as action.

STID did not surprise me after the reactor death and Spock’s Khan scream. (The scream was a little surprising – but in my case, it was because “they went there.”)

Iron Man 3 is probably not a movie I would watch a second time, because I think most of the fun is in the surprises, if that makes sense. (I was also not emotionally invested in any changes made to canon – never was a Marvel girl. My friend went on about the changes and specifically the white washing, as she did about Khan previously. And this is a 30-something friend.)

I won’t comment anymore on STID until I’ve been able to watch it quietly by myself.

947. Dave H - October 1, 2013

TrekieJan,

Don’w sweat it. You have made a reasobable limited amount of comments about STID, so if you don’t remember some of the major plot points, I don’t have an issue with that.

This is more about the guy who has made literally hundreds of posts over the past several weeks being critical of STID, who confesses now that he doesn’t even recall main scenes from the movie. When you are setting yourself up at that level like he has done — become the defacto leader of fans on this site in terms or the sheer volume from him of comments being critical of STID — then it behooves him to have at least seen and remember the entire movie.

That is why so many of us are so irritated with Cygnus X-1. The guy’s negative comments on STID look like the game of a troll to us now. We no longer can trust what he is saying. He has disrespected the process of all fans engaging intelligently on this site in ah honest manner.

You have not done this, so I have not issue with you, whatsoever.

948. Dave H - October 1, 2013

Hi Matt, my comment to TrekieJan first appeared in duplicate form for some reason, and now it is gone completely? Weird?

949. Spock/Uhura Admirer - October 1, 2013

@939 MJB

” 939. MJB – October 1, 2013
On a lighter note, check out how STID should have ended in this funny video (from the folks at ‘How it should have ended’): “

Lol. That was too funny, especially the first part with Harrison/Khan. ;-D

950. Spock/Uhura Admirer - October 1, 2013

” 925. boborci – October 1, 2013
910. Copy that:)”

And what about Uhura?

951. Basement Blogger - October 1, 2013

@ 937

Disinvited,

You do realize I was nitpicking 2001 as an example? The point was that you can nitpick any movie even a great movie like 2001 when you set your own factual assumptions.

952. Gary 8.5 - October 1, 2013

946. I was not a huge fan of the story in IM3.
(I didnt have a problem with the big changes to the canon.)
The Extremis Arc in the comics was never one of my favorites.
That having been said, IM3 had spectacular visuals .

953. Spock/Uhura Admirer - October 1, 2013

I liked IM3. I’ll be getting it on DVD.

954. Ash - October 1, 2013

@910 McCoys #3 fan

Great post! Couldn’t have said it better myself. Getting the trio right is so very important, more than anything else those three need the most care and work. Seeing as most people share the same sentiment, I more than ever am confident that Mr.Orci and co will do they best to set things right ;)

Also if I may ask, where is this great Karin Blair article you mentioned? I’d very much like to check it out.

955. Spock/Uhura Admirer - October 1, 2013

“Seeing as most people share the same sentiment…”

Most people, in general, don’t. But you are right. It appears he’s given his answer…

956. Ash - October 1, 2013

“Most people, in general, don’t. But you are right. It appears he’s given his answer…”

LOL. Oh s/u admirer, I know you don’t want to believe it, but yes they do. However seeing as it doesn’t include Uhura or her romance, naturally you will argue against it. I’m not surprised. It’s become rather funny actually :)

Darn, I was doing such a good job of ignoring your nonsense too. I shall now return to turning a blind eye to your obsession and denial of the way things really are.

957. Jonboc - October 1, 2013

Back in the original series, Kirk never, and I mean NEVER exhibited the angry rage exhibited in the badly delivered iconic Khan yell. That’s why I believe it was all just an act to sell Khan a bill of goods. It was badly delivered because it wasn’t sincere….just over the top enough to make Khan believe he succeeded.

958. boborci - October 1, 2013

well, I sure am happy to see consensus on Kirk’s scream. thanks for clearing that up, everyone;)

959. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - October 1, 2013

A consensus of trekkies is an oxymoron ;-)

960. Who cares - October 1, 2013

@954. I do not agree that the trio is the most important thing in Trek, not by a good bit, do I think Kirk, Spock, and McCoy’s friendship is important? Yes, but not more than a bunch of other things.

Thinking back to “Parallels” when Worf was passing through all the different quantum realities and he hit the one where he was First Officer of the Enterprise under Captain Riker and married to Deana with two kids, but no Alexander, or after they managed to make all of the Enterprises appear and there was the one from a Borg conquered Federation (should have been an ISS Enterprise too IMO, would be a different quantum reality from the “true” Mirror Universe, and fits the theory quite well) .

The new timeline is yet another of those quantum realities which has been altered by an incursion from a future era of another quantum reality (which may or may not have been the “Prime” universe, but then I think we have been watching a different quantum reality from the “true” Prime since Yesterday’s Enterprise, possibly another after Parallels, and maybe even a few more cycled through).

Personally I enjoy alternate/parallel timelines so much that it enhances my enjoyment to know that I have really no idea if, for example, David Marcus will still be born, maybe his name will be Kirk, maybe he will be a girl, maybe Carol and Jim don’t have a child in this reality, maybe anything really. I also speculate if perhaps in the 24th century of this new timeline could Tuvok possibly be Spock and Uhura’s son, and I enjoy the speculation, even if I am just speculating for my own fun, I used to come up with stories to follow up episodes of TNG that I really liked, for example after “The Lower Decks” I sketched out a little idea about how the Bajoran Ensign (Sito IIRC) had faked her death in the shuttle explosion and later escaped from Cardassian space with help from Thomas Riker (the Transporter clone imprisoned in Cardassian space).

Frankly I enjoy not knowing how things will work out, looking forward to what comes next.

961. Cygnus-X1 - October 1, 2013

Trekkie Jan
Marja

I’ve just re-watched STID and am ready to cast the tie-breaking vote in the debate about the plot.

Firstly, let me note that I have basically the same reaction watching the movie now as I did watching it in the theater, though less emotional all around. The “thrillride” aspect of the movie it isn’t as potent as in the theater, and the flaws in the movie aren’t as upsetting, because I know what to expect. Just as in the theater, I enjoyed the movie up until the TWOK death scene, and from there on until the end, the movie is a dud for me.

Being able to view certain scenes over and over, I have even more appreciation for the performances of the veteran actors in the movie, Peter Weller and Bruce Greenwood. The Enterprise crew actors all do a fine job, but the veterans really show them how it’s done, especially Greenwood—quite a contrast between the new kids and the veterans.

My feelings about Benedict Cumberbatch’s performance have changed a bit. I still think that he did a very effective job with what he was given, but his dialogue was a bit stilted and unwieldy in places, and he even speaks it more like a third-person narration at times than like lines being spoken by a man in the moment. More natural sounding dialogue for Khan would have worked better, though Cumberbatch does a good enough job with what he was given that I almost never doubt him in the role.

As for the plot, I can now express in much more specific detail why it ultimately makes no sense. Actually, let me start a new post as I have a lot to say about it….

962. Curious Cadet - October 1, 2013

@946. TrekkieJan,
“Kirk’s Khan scream in TWOK was a ruse. You can kind of watch him wind up for a good one (imo.)”

Just out of curiosity, is that your opinion in hindsight, or did you actually think Kirk was plotting right up through the “KHAN” scream from the first time you ever saw the scene?

963. Rick - October 1, 2013

@956 Ash

Lol yep!

@960 who cares.

I can’t remember if it was discussed here or on another site, but Tuvok is not the son of Spock and Uhura. I can’t remember if it was because the timelines didn’t add up or because Tuvoks real parents were already discussed, but Spock and Uhura are not them..thank god.

964. Cygnus-X1 - October 1, 2013

Trekkie Jan
Marja

————The Plot of STID Ultimately Makes No Sense————

I. The 72 Augments in their cryotubes, while at the center of the story’s familial “theme,” are used as a nonsensical MacGuffin ultimately rendering the movie’s plot convoluted and nonsensical.

Simply put, Admiral Marcus has no reason to leave the 72 Aguments’ cryotubes in his torpedoes, but his character chooses this reasonless course of action so that certain plot points in the movie can be arrived at, the dramatic culmination of which is the “the battle of wits” between Spock and Khan, in which Khan negotiates a hostage-trade comprising the 72 Augments in exchange for the lives of Kirk, Scotty, Carol Marcus and the entire Enterprise and her crew. Without Adm. Marcus having made the
nonsensical decision to leave the Augments in the torpedoes, “the
battle of wits” scene would not have been possible, and the writers would have had to find another way to get Spock Prime into the movie.

The scene which ultimately reveals that the plot of STID doesn’t really make sense is the one wherein Kirk and Adm. Marcus have their view-screen exchange as the Enterprise and Vengeance face off in space.

Adm. Marcus asks Kirk to hand over Khan, and Kirk replies, “And what exactly would you like me to do with the rest of his crew? Fire them at the Klingons, end 72 lives…start a war in the process?”

Here, Kirk is giving us his appraisal of the situation. Kirk’s deduction is that Marcus’s plan all along has been to have Kirk fire the 72 torpedoes with the Augments in them at Kronos in order to achieve two, possibly three goals: (1) to kill the 72 Augments; (2) presumably to kill Khan, whose location in the uninhabited Ketha Province Marcus had ordered Kirk to target; and,
possibly (3) to provoke a war with the Klingons.

Why does Kirk think that Marcus is trying to start a war with the Klingons? Because earlier in the movie, Khan tells him so:

“Marcus used me to design weapons, to help him realize his vision of a militarized Star Fleet. He sent you to use those weapons, to fire my torpedoes on an unsuspecting planet; and then he purposely crippled your ship in enemy space, leading to one inevitable outcome: The Klingons would come searching for whomever was responsible and you would have no chance of escape. Marcus would finally have the war he talked about, the war he always wanted.”

So, we have Kirk’s assessment of Marcus’s plan. All that remains to be known now is whether Kirk is correct or incorrect in his assessment, and we get that answer immediately afterward in Marcus’s response to Kirk:

“He [Khan] put those people in those torpedoes, and I simply didn’t want to burden you with knowing what was inside of them. You saw what this man can do all by himself; can you imagine what would happen if we woke up the rest of his crew?…Khan and his crew were condemned to death as war criminals, and now it is our duty to carry out that sentence before anybody else dies because of him.”

Here, Marcus confirms 2 of the 3 intentions which Kirk had surmised. Marcus says nothing about whether he intended to provoke a war with the Klingons (more on that below), but we now know for certain that (1) Marcus intended to kill Khan and the other 72 Augments; (2) Marcus KNEW that the Augments were inside the 72 torpedoes; and, putting it all together, (3) Marcus’s plan was for Kirk to fire the 72 Augment-laden torpedoes at Khan’s location on Kronos for the explicit purpose of killing Khan and the 72 Augments.

To sum up: Marcus was trying to kill Khan and the Augments. This much is certain.

Was provoking a war with the Klingons also part of Marcus’s plan?

Khan told Kirk that it was; but regardless of whether Khan was correct in his appraisal of Marcus’s goals and/or being truthful with Kirk, it does appear that once Marcus learned that Khan had fled to Kronos, Marcus saw it as the perfect opportunity to provoke a war with the Klingons and have the Enterprise suffer the blame for it. How do we know this? Because, in addition to it being consistent with the statements of both Khan and Marcus throughout the movie, there is simply no other explanation offered for the mysterious, sudden malfunction in the Enterprise’s warp core. Hence, we must conclude that starting a war with the Klingons and having the Enterprise suffer the blame for it (and likely be destroyed) was part of
Marcus’s plan. It was a very badly constructed plan. There does not seem to have been any way for Marcus to time the warp core failure so that it would occur only AFTER the Enterprise had launched the torpedoes; and, in fact, Marcus’s plan fails in this regard, as the Enterprise suddenly drops out of warp before launching the torpedoes. This problem seems to be a MINOR PLOT HOLE, but it does appear to have been part of Marcus’s plan.

Further, during the starship showdown, Marcus flatly tells Kirk, “I was never going to spare your crew,” which is consistent with Marcus’s willingness to sacrifice the Enterprise crew in order to provoke a war with the Klingons.

Marcus’s strategy and Khan’s role in it appear to have been as follows:

Marcus awakens Khan in order to get Khan’s cooperation in developing advanced weaponry for Section 31, which weaponry includes “new photon torpedoes [which] are “long-range and untraceable, [and] would be invisible to Klingon sensors.”

At some point, Khan decides to end his cooperation with Marcus and to try and escape with his 72 frozen buddies:

“I tried to smuggle them [his 72 buddies] to safety by hiding them in the very weapons I had designed…but I was discovered. I had no choice but to escape alone. And when I did, I had every reason to suspect that Marcus had killed every, single one of the people I hold most dear. So, I responded in kind. My crew is my family, Kirk. Is there anything you would not do for your family?”

Either before or after Khan’s attack on Star Fleet, Marcus learns that Khan has placed the 72 Augments inside the new photon torpedoes. As is revealed later in the film—both on the planetoid where one of the torpedoes becomes accidentally armed while being examined by Bones and Carol Marcus and is about to detonate; and later when Spock transports the 72 torpedoes over to the Vengeance and all 72 (presumably) torpedoes detonate—the 72 torpedoes all contain Augments in cryotubes but also detonators and explosive material such that the torpedoes can be used as explosive weapons while simultaneously housing the Augments’ cryotubes.

A question implied by the presence of Augments inside of the modified torpedoes is: What was taken OUT of the torpedoes in order to make room for the Augments and their cryotubes? Did the torpedoes previously contain even MORE explosive material, but most of it was removed to make room for the cryotubes, leaving just enough explosive material to make the torpedoes combustible but not cause nearly the amount of damage that they would normally cause? This question is never answered and we are never given an explanation about the torpedoes’ original payloads.

Now, here’s the part of the plot that doesn’t really make sense:

Marcus knows that Khan is super-intelligent, super-ruthless, and a super-strategist—indeed these attributes of Khan’s are at the core of the very reason that Marcus unfroze Khan in the first place. So, if Marcus has half a brain, he will constantly be looking for Khan to try and outsmart him.

When Marcus learns that Khan has fled to Kronos, Marcus is not detered: “All-out war with the Klingons is inevitable, Mr. Kirk. If you ask me, it’s already begun.” At some point, somehow, Marcus learns that Khan has hidden the Augments in the 72 torpedoes. And at some point, presumably not too long after that, Marcus foolishly decides to leave the 72 Augments
in the torpedoes and have the Enterprise fire them at Khan on Kronos.

There is no reason for Marcus’s character to make this foolish decision; but even if there were, one of Marcus’s first thoughts should have been that he might be playing into Khan’s hands. Marcus should have suspected that the super-intelligent, super-strategizing Khan had left the Augments in the 72 torpedoes deliberately for Marcus to find, and that by firing the Augment-laden torpedoes at Khan—WHOSE PRIMARY GOAL IS THE RETRIEVAL OF HIS BUDDIES INSIDE THOSE SAME TORPEDOES—that perhaps, just perhaps, he, Marcus, might be playing
into Khan’s hands.

Though, Marcus had no real reason to leave the Augments in the torpedoes, anyway. Being that Marcus’s goal was to kill the Augments, Marcus should simply have removed the 72 Augments from the torpedoes and killed them. Done and done. No muss, no fuss, no risk, and nobody outside of the top secret Section 31, where all of this super secret stuff
has been happening, need ever have known about the 72 dead frozen
Augments.

But Marcus doesn’t kill the augments in the easiest, simplest, least risky, most convenient way possible. And that is a MAJOR PLOT HOLE. Instead, for no stated reason, and contrary to common sense and his instincts for self-preservation, the otherwise extremely wary Marcus decides to throw caution to the wind and leave the 72 Augments inside the torpedoes and then have the Enterprise fire the Augment-laden torpedoes at Khan on Kronos.

Leaving the 72 Augments in the torpedoes needlessly complicates and
jeopardizes Marcus’s plan by: (1) giving Kirk the opportunity to look into the suspicious, top-secret torpedoes aboard his ship and thereby figure out that something is amiss and that Marcus has not
been entirely honest and forthcoming, thus ruining Marcus’s plan; (2) allowing for the possibility that one or more of the 72 Augments will survive
the torpedo assault on Kronos, due to some technical failure in one or more of the torpedoes (or, if it had been part of Khan’s plan, by Khan having tampered with the detonators).

II. ALTERNATE EXPLANATION: THE TORPEDOES WERE PART OF KHAN’S PLAN.

It has been suggested by some, though there is no indication of it in the movie, that we are meant somehow to deduce that Khan’s plan was as follows: (1) to hide the 72 Augments in the torpedoes; (2) to allow Marcus to find the 72 Augments hidden in the torpedoes; (3) to provoke Marcus into firing the 72 Augment-laden torpedoes at Khan’s location on Kronos; (4) as Khan had secretly deactivated the detonators on the torpedoes so that his 72 buddies wouldn’t be blown to bits when Marcus fired them at Khan’s location on Kronos; and (5) Khan would then retrieve his 72 buddies, all alive and well.

But this plot interpretation doesn’t make sense, either, because it’s undone by two events in the movie: (1) a torpedo accidentally becomes active and is about to detonate while being examined by Carol Marcus and McCoy; which event is reaffirmed later when (2) Spock later says to McCoy, “You inadvertently activated a torpedo; could you replicate the process?”

What’s the significance of these two scenes?

Firstly, even if Khan was just gambling that Marcus would, for some unlikely reason, be stupid enough to launch the torpedoes at Kronos with the Augments still inside of them, it would simply not be consistent with Khan’s super-intellect for him to have done such a shoddy job of disabling the explosive capabilities of the torpedoes, such that they could be accidentally reactivated (or even, as they later are, intentionally reactivated).

Secondly, if Khan’s plan were to retrieve his 72 buddies ALIVE, then gambling that the torpedoes would not be active and explode when they reached Kronos would be unbelievably reckless of him. Further, Khan would have known that Marcus isn’t stupid enough to just launch the 72 torpedoes at Kronos without first examining them. Again, a Marcus with half a brain would open up the torpedoes, replace their computer processors and whatever other parts with new ones that couldn’t have been tampered
with, and then arm the torpedoes. And, naturally, Khan would have foreseen this. Khan would see that the 72 torpedoes might easily explode upon arrival at Kronos killing his “family” inside of them. So, are we meant to believe that the same man who is shown shedding tears over his “family” would be so reckless with their lives? No way.

So, the interpretation that Khan intended for the 72 torpedoes to be fired at him on Kronos, so that he could then retrieve his buddies out of those torpedoes, doesn’t make sense either. That plan would most likely have ended with Khan’s 72 buddies getting blown to bits and possibly Khan along with them. Though, as previously stated, a Marcus with half a brain would have simply removed the 72 Augments from the torpedoes and killed them before firing the torpedoes at Khan. An added benefit to doing this would have been that Marcus could have reloaded the torpedoes with their original payloads, i.e. whatever had been removed to make room for the Augments, presumably explosive material.

It’s not quick and easy to explain why the plot of STID seems convoluted and nonsensical, because the people who made the movie throw a lot of information at you at a very quick pace. I get the impression that the makers of STID were banking that the audience would equate confusion with intrigue. There’s so much going on, it’s all happening so fast, and we’re not really understanding the plot, so there must be something deeply mysterious here. The movie’s stunning visuals also serve to distract from the flaws in its plot.

965. Spock/Uhura Admirer - October 1, 2013

@956

Wow, you are interesting… But I forgot how you know everything, Ash, even though you don’t. No, most people in general are not wrapped up in your trio, but keep on keeping on there Ash…

966. MJB - October 1, 2013

964. Cygnus-X1
Holy cow! It’s just a movie, you know.
Can I ask you something? Are you by chance an engineer??

967. Spock/Uhura Admirer - October 1, 2013

@ Who Cares 960
Exactly. Nothing’s wrong with friendship, but when people elevate it to “divinity” levels, there’s just something wrong with that. When it gets to that point, there’s just nothing you can do in terms of talking to certain people because their “trinity” is everything and you are correct that this isn’t most people and the trio really isn’t the center of everything…

I also liked the idea of the new timeline and somewhat different versions of the same characters that have somewhat different relationship dynamics. But, you know, for a few people, that’s more than they can take…

#963
”I can’t remember if it was discussed here or on another site, but Tuvok is not the son of Spock and Uhura. I can’t remember if it was because the timelines didn’t add up or because Tuvoks real parents were already discussed, but Spock and Uhura are not them..thank god.”

It looks like somebody doesn’t understand the concept of an alternate timeline or Mirrorverse…

968. Cygnus-X1 - October 1, 2013

966. MJB – October 1, 2013

—964. Cygnus-X1
Holy cow! It’s just a movie, you know.
Can I ask you something? Are you by chance an engineer??—

Heh. Nah, just a guy laid up for a spell with a gastrointestinal illness. My Dad is an engineer, actually.

969. Rick - October 1, 2013

@967

No. Sorry but no. I’ve seen you use the “uh oh you don’t understand AU’s” before, and it gets old. However your desperation for Spock and Uhuras silly romance to become the star of the films has gone from fascinating to downright annoying. You and the other fans of the romance (all 4 of you) can carry on pushing for more than you’ll get. It will simply drive you crazy in the end.

I’m gonna jump the train wreck that is any discussion with you before it wastes any more space on this message board. Lord knows how you live to preach to anyone about your obsession with Spock and his girlfriend.

See ya!

970. Cygnus-X1 - October 1, 2013

877. Basement Blogger – September 30, 2013

—1. It didn’t matter to you which ship crashed into SF. Really? Did you fall asleep after Kirk and Khan boarded the Vengeance.?—

No, Kirk and Khan board the Vengeance during the portion of the movie that I said I enjoyed. The movie doesn’t get boring for me until after the TWOK death scene. I didn’t say that I “hated” the end of the movie, just that I found it unengaging. I did, however, “hate” the TWOK death scene.

—2. You keep bringing up the “magic blood plothole.” One it’s not a plot hole. Again, a plot hole is something essential and that is not explained.—

I’m the one who posted the definition of “plot hole,” remember?

It’s a plot hole in that it’s never explained why McCoy can’t simply try developing a syrum from one of the other 72 genetically engineered super-humans on the Enterprise. It’s also bad for the franchise to have death-curing blood in its canon. Now, nobody ever needs to die. They’re going to have to walk back the magic blood in the next movie and make up some excuse for why it’s not used to save the people who die.

—So you see, giving up on a movie due to some hatred will cause you to miss some great things that come later.—

I saw it twice in the theater back in May. And again today. I didn’t become disengaged during the end of the movie by willful choice. My mind just tends to get bored and wander during long action sequences that I don’t care much about. The TWOK death scene and the quest for Khan’s blood without bothering to address the blood in the other 72 genetically engineered supermen on the Enterprise really ruin the end of the movie for me. Also killing off Kirk just to rip off the TWOK death scene, and then bring Kirk back to life 10 minutes later. It’s lame. Just as it was lame to demote Kirk, tell him he’s going back to the Academy, and then re-advance him back to Captain 10 minutes later.

971. Spock/Uhura Admirer - October 1, 2013

^Lol. Someone mentioned what they thought might be interesting in another timeline and you go off about how that’s not the case in the Prime verse. So yeah, you come off as not understanding the difference…

It’s not my fault that’s the case. Now you lie by saying that I want S/U to be the stars of the films and that in and of itself sounds desperate. You could just answer what I say, Rick. You don’t have to lie.

There are more than 4 people that like S/U. Why do you need it to be just 4, Rick? If anyone’s acting like some things aren’t quite alright with them, then I’m sorry, but that appears to be you.

You never really were having a “discussion” with me, Rick. That would require actually responding to my posts in a way that does not involve lying or twisting the truth, and it would certainly involve not attacking me from the start. You never wanted a discussion. You just thought you could shout and lol me down. Well, I won’t be bullied, and I guess you know that now.

You don’t know what I “live” for, but it most certainly isn’t a fictional pairing. You act like I spend all my time on this board. That’s extraordinarily far from being the case.

Tah, tah!

972. K-7 - October 1, 2013

Cygnus X-1: “I’ve just re-watched STID”

Finally!!!

Thank you!!!

I will start considering your posts again.

973. Cygnus-X1 - October 1, 2013

878. Red Dead Ryan – September 30, 2013

I DID admit that I’d misremembered a scene. Several times.

And I was just being silly. It’s all good.

974. Cygnus-X1 - October 1, 2013

912. Dave H – September 30, 2013

—I don’t know which is more moronic…—

The middle one, Dave.

975. Cygnus-X1 - October 1, 2013

918. K-7 – September 30, 2013

—That’s the sound of Cygnus X-1′s remaining credibility being flushed down the toilet.—

Actually, it’s the sound of the Vengeance overtaking the Enterprise in subspace. Where’d they get that sound from, anyway? It sounds like an old WWII prop fighter plane with the teeth painted on the the nose. I guess it’s an effective sound as far as sounds go, though it stands out a bit in that scene.

976. Who cares - October 1, 2013

Here are a few thoughts on Tuvok in the new timeline.

1. There are only 10,000 Vulcans left, give or take a few thousand more or less, Tuvok has to be the child of at least one of them if he is even going to exist in the new universe.

2. All that is ever mentioned about Tuvok’s parents is that they encouraged him to join Starfleet IIRC, as they had both served, and since Tuvok was a junior officer aboard the Excelsior under Captain Sulu during the STTUC, and disliked Starfleet enough at the time to resign shortly after before rejoining Starfleet 75 years later, he is a grandfather after all, the first bunch of messages from home Voyager got included a message from his wife about the birth. This means Tuvok will be born within sometime within the 10 to 15 years following the conclusion of Enterprise’s 5 year mission.

3. For all I know Tuvok could just as easily end up the child of Spock Prime or Sarek, both of whom are living on New Vulcan, and as a matter of logic, in the interest of preventing the extinction of their species, would at least attempt to pass on their genes through artificial means at the very least, there are only a few thousand Vulcans left, and every one that dies without procreating deprives the Vulcan people of valuable genetic diversity, and decreases their viability as a species, thus it would be illogical for any Vulcan to risk his life without first ensuring his genes survive for his people, with the singular exception of Spock, who can risk himself logically as Spock Prime has already told him that he (SP) will be helping their people for him, which by extension has to include passing on the genes they share.

Like I said, I like to play with alternate universe ideas, and the Quantum reality theory allows for the possibility of timelines so different that you cant understand how they could be the same world, as well as realities so similar you could search for a lifetime and never find a difference between them, and I like thinking about all kinds of different possibilities.

977. Cygnus-X1 - October 1, 2013

972. K-7 – October 1, 2013

—Cygnus X-1: “I’ve just re-watched STID”

Finally!!! Thank you!!! I will start considering your posts again.—

Hey, you betcha.

978. K-7 - October 1, 2013

@975. Remember, a couple of the original Trek movies used “old car sounds.”

979. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - October 1, 2013

Who can forget the sound of Excelsior’s transwarp drive failing in ST:III :-)

980. dmduncan - October 1, 2013

964. Cygnus-X1 – October 1, 2013

There is no reason for Marcus’s character to make this foolish decision;

***

I don’t follow your reasoning. General George Armstrong Custer also made a foolish decision.

When you say that Marcus had no reason to leave the bodies in the torpedoes, I can argue that it’s equally true that the had no reason to remove them from the torpedoes. I can imagine more reasons why he would leave them in the pods than I can for why he would immediately remove them.

I could, in other words, say that your argument that it’s a plot hole comes from knowing how events play out NOT in Marcus’ favor by having the bodies in the torpedoes. But Marcus didn’t have that information.

Which brings me back to General George Armstrong Custer. He too had a plan and he too made a foolish decision. In retrospect, if he had the chance to do it over, I suspect he would have stayed home that day.

So what’s so hard to believe? Marcus discovers the torpedoes contain bodies, has them seized and stored while Khan is hunted. I mean, what’s the rush to remove them? They need their diapers changed? Then, when Khan beams to Kronos, Marcus thinks he has the perfect opportunity to cover his ass by getting rid of the whole bunch at the same time.

You could easily explain it as him having a notion to use the torpedoes himself aboard the Vengeance, perhaps, and that he saw problem-child Khan’s placement of them inside torpedoes as a stupid decision that he would use as a “teachable moment” to punish Khan or bring him out of hiding.

And Khan himself thinks his people were killed by Marcus. How? By detonating the torpedoes seems like a viable option, because the bodies were hidden from view in them and they would be vaporized on detonation. 72 problems solved. So Khan’s fear and the ostensible reason for his attack on Starfleet HQ itself suggests a reason why Marcus would leave the bodies in the pods.

981. McCoy's #3Fan - October 1, 2013

@954 Ash

“Also if I may ask, where is this great Karin Blair article you mentioned? I’d very much like to check it out.”

‘Meaning in Star Trek’ is actually a book, first published in, I think, 1977. Used copies appear to be available, but many public libraries also have it, or if yours doesn’t, you could get it on interlibrary loan…happy reading!

982. MJ - October 1, 2013

Cygnus X-1,

I agree with DM Duncan.

You’d really do well to see (or read the pulitizer prize winning novel) the classic movie, “Seven Days In May,” and reference Burt Lancaster’s role as General George Mattoon Scott.

Watch that movie, and then tell me with a straight face that Marcus’s actions aren’t self-consistent with his warped sense of duty that he actually thinks he is saving the Federation.

BTW, glad you have given STID a more detailed watch now.

983. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - October 1, 2013

…and for something only tangentially related to Star Trek. Empire Online has published a list of its 100 sexiest movie stars for 2013. Names we recognise from STID are:-

Males -
Benedict Cumberbatch #1
Chris Pine #12
Zachary Quinto #14
Karl Urban #34

Females -
Zoe Saldana #10

984. Spock/Uhura Admirer - October 2, 2013

#983 Obsessive

Great for them! :-)

985. Curious Cadet - October 2, 2013

@983. ObsessiveStarTrekFan,
“Zoe Saldana #10
Chris Pine #12
Zachary Quinto #14
Karl Urban #34″

I believe you’ve just provided statistical data as for why Uhura is pushing McCoy out of the picture. Look for her to be in the middle of the marketing images for the sequel with Kirk and Spock on either side behind Her! LOL

986. Phil - October 2, 2013

@958. Out of curiosity, why did you ask, Bob?

987. Curious Cadet - October 2, 2013

@980. dmduncan,
“You could easily explain it as him having a notion to use the torpedoes himself aboard the Vengeance, perhaps, and that he saw problem-child Khan’s placement of them inside torpedoes as a stupid decision that he would use as a “teachable moment” to punish Khan or bring him out of hiding.”

I always saw it as Marcus’ original plan (he had to have one). He was going to fire the torpedoes undetected from the Vengeance on Klingon all along. And your characterization of firing the torpedoes as a “teachable moment” is perfectly in character with Marcus. That is what fuels my alternate interpretation, that Khan knew Marcus so well that he knew Marcus’ hubris would lead him to do exactly that — even to the point that Marcus would actually complete Khan’s plan by actually doing the heavy lifting and putting the tubes into the torpedoes for him.

And I have to reiterate here, Khan never intended these torpedoes to be fired, regardless of what Marcus might have done to them at any point. They had to be real to pass detection, but Khan had to have been planning to take over the Vengeance with his back door codes (a la April in Countdown to Darkness) long before those torpedoes were ever loaded for firing at anything, just as we see him attempt to do with Kirk after he complicates his plan.

988. Phil - October 2, 2013

Couple this with Paramount laying off 5% of it’s workforce, and it’s a big clue why we have not had a sequel announcement yet. Expect the nest Trek movie to be back at the 150MM budget range, and to make efforts to boost the domestic numbers.

http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/5-top-grossing-paramount-films-that-barely-made-a-profit.html/

989. dmduncan - October 2, 2013

987. Curious Cadet – October 2, 2013

Marcus could even be the one who arms the torpedoes. No doubt there’s some alpha male tension between Khan and Marcus, and Marcus takes the position, “Okay you arrogant ass. Let me show you what happens when you load YOUR people inside MY torpedoes.”

990. TUP - October 2, 2013

The question is, what will Paramount insist upon in an effort to increase the domestic numbers.

What made 09 was interesting to the general public and STID to have less “buzz”?

I think the single biggest marketing effort Paramount could make would be the inclusion of William Shatner.

991. dmduncan - October 2, 2013

Yeah, I think some of Cygnus’ criticisms are from the standpoint of knowing how all the decisions ultimately turn out, and that’s why I don’t understand his criticism. The characters don’t know what Cygnus knows. They don’t know how their decisions are ultimately going to turn out, so how is it a plot hole for their plans to fail because they made what turns out to be a bad decision?

In reality it is often impossible to compute all the variables even when you are NOT under time constraints and you have to do something so you pull the trigger with your fingers crossed.

When it works you call yourself a genius and when it fails you tell yourself you should have known better, but knowing better very often comes only after the plan fails.

In those moments when your plan SEEMS like a good idea that will work, you don’t actually know if it WILL work and if, therefore, it was a good idea to have.

Add to the mixture of variables an admiral with a Custer-like ego, and why is his decision so hard to believe?

We are also forgetting MWI/QM in which for each possibility there is a universe where it is actual. So if it is possible for Marcus to make what turns out to be a bad decision but which seemed good to him at the time he made it, then there is a universe where he actually makes that decision.

That’s the universe we saw.

MWI takes the wind out of the sails of the one universe / greatest probability argument.

992. Marshall - October 2, 2013

@985 curious cadet

Well you know what they say. Sex sells. Karl Urban, while extremely talented and widely regarded to be the best of the reboot characters, doesn’t look as great as Zoe in skintight pants or that little red engineering dress. Zoe is B-list but the most well known of the Trek cast. It’s only logical I guess to shove her in there. Sad but true.

993. Who cares - October 2, 2013

@992. So, one of the stars of the highest grossing movie of all time (Avatar) is B-List to you? I don’t even like Avatar but I have seen it and Zoe is the best part of it, and not because of her looks.

994. Cygnus-X1 - October 2, 2013

980. dmduncan – October 1, 2013

—I don’t follow your reasoning. General George Armstrong Custer also made a foolish decision.—

All foolish decisions are not equivalent, and there is an important difference between the foolish decision of Custer and that of Marcus. But, before I even get to that, let me point out that nowhere in STID is it suggested, implied, intimated or mentioned that Marcus’s decision is foolish. “The foolish decision of Admiral Marcus” is not even a minor theme in the movie. Simply put, Marcus’s decision goes totally unexplained. Major plot hole.

Now, the important difference between the foolish decisions of Custer and Marcus is that Custer’s decision was strategic. It turned out to be the wrong strategy as Custer was erroneous in his prediction of the Native Americans’ strategy. Custer predicted that the tribes would scatter, and based upon that prediction, he made the strategic decision to attack without delay instead of waiting for reinforcements. It was a strategic decision, albeit the wrong one.

Marcus’s decision has nothing to do with strategy. It’s a decision made to set up certain plot points and scenes in the movie. There is no strategic value in leaving the Augments in the torpedoes, and doing so needlessly jeopardizes Marcus’s entire plan.

—When you say that Marcus had no reason to leave the bodies in the torpedoes, I can argue that it’s equally true that the had no reason to remove them from the torpedoes.—

If you’d care to make that argument, then it should contain a rebuttal of the reasons for removing the Augments from the torpedoes that I listed in the previous post. I will cut/paste some of them here:

Leaving the 72 Augments in the torpedoes needlessly complicates and
jeopardizes Marcus’s plan by: (1) giving Kirk the opportunity to look into the suspicious, top-secret torpedoes aboard his ship and thereby figure out that something is amiss and that Marcus has not been entirely honest and forthcoming, thus ruining Marcus’s plan.

And, in fact, a version of this does actually happen. The strange secrecy about the torpedoes causes Scotty to pitch a fit and ultimately be relieved of duty. Since he is relieved of duty, Scotty has the opportunity to go snooping around the Jupiter coordinates provided by Khan, to discover the Vengeance and sneak on board. Scotty is later instrumental in thwarting Marcus’s plan, thanks to the suspicious, Augment-laden torpedoes. If they’d been torpedoes without top-secret Augments hidden inside them, none of that would have happened;

(2) allowing for the possibility that one or more of the 72 Augments will survive the torpedo assault on Kronos, due to some technical failure in one or more of the torpedoes (or, if it had been part of Khan’s plan, by Khan having tampered with the detonators).

Marcus could have been playing into Khan’s hands. It was Khan, after all, who’d put the Augments in the torpedoes. The notion that the super-intelligent, super-strategic Khan might have had an ulterior motive for putting his buddies in the torpedoes should have been foremost on the mind of a Marcus with half a brain. Why needlessly risk that possibility for absolutely no benefit?

Let me repeat, there is absolutely no strategic value or other benefit to leaving the Augments in the torpedoes. Doing so is like the US launching a missile at Syria and, just for kicks, hiding the recipe for how to make a nuclear weapon inside of the missile. It would be a needlessly risky decision with absolutely no potential upside.

And so on. I’m not going to cut/paste the entire other post, but if you go back and re-read it, there’s a lot more on why Marcus’s decision makes no sense and serves no purpose for his character.

995. Marshall - October 2, 2013

@993
Yes, absolutely. B-List. And I’m not saying that as an insult.

A-List is Meryl Streep, Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Angelina Jolie, Leonardo DiCaprio, Denzel Washington. People with names and faces and talent that are universally recognized. With Orcars and Hollywood stars and longstanding respect in the business. Sorry to her fans but Zoe is not on that level. Having magazine covers and being on TMZ doesn’t automatically constitue A-List status. Miley Cyrus has that, and Zoe is WAY prettier and more appealing than that mess.

And I loved Avatar, and while she and Sam Worthington were the stars, people didn’t go “oh wow Zoe and Sam are in it, we gotta see that” they went to see a James Cameron film with awesome special effects. And honestly, I haven’t really seen anything special from Zoe since that made me think she has real staying power for years to come and A-List potential. Worthington either for that matter. She is stunning, but I wouldn’t call her a great, memorable actress.

I suppose we have different standards when it comes to what we think constitutes A-List status..

996. Who cares - October 2, 2013

@995. Yes very different standards of A-List, the only two you list that I agree with are Brad and Angelina, I would actively avoid films with most of the other starring, while I would be marginally willing to consider watching Clooney, if the movie appealed to me otherwise.

997. Marshall - October 2, 2013

@995

Wow lol alright then. If you would put Zoe above MERYL STREEP in A-List status then this is no longer a discussion, it is a joke.

Meryl Streep has 17 Oscar nominations. Zoe has being a blue alien in Avatar. Oh and dare I mention the horrendous Colombiana?

I will say one thing for Zoe, she (apparantly) has a few dedicated fans. Ones who will attempt do defend her even against the best of the best. How adorable :) Hey, you tried though.

998. Who cares - October 2, 2013

@997 Why are you trying to make this all about Zoe? It sure isn’t for me, I can’t stand Streep, never could, I don’t like one single thing she has ever been in, not one, I don’t care how many Oscar Nominations she has, her presence in a movie is reason enough for me to put it on my list of “movies I probably won’t watch, ever”. Same for DiCaprio, cant stand him, have liked a grand total of 2 movies he has made in his entire career, and I liked those movies despite him, not because of him, and again same for Denzel, Virtuosity and Book of Eli are alright but other than that its unmitigated crap movie after movie.

You can have whatever views you want but I wouldn’t wipe my a– with a poster for a Streep movie for fear of contaminating myself with her stupidity.

Also once again let me make this clear since you seem to have missed the point before. I DID NOT LIKE AVATAR, in fact I hate it, and I am not a fan of James Cameron movies either, which I have mentioned on this site several times before, the only watchable portions of Avatar surround Zoe IMO, otherwise its a complete train wreck.

Also i don’t give Oscar nominations, or wins, any consideration whatsoever when deciding what movies I will watch or what actors I enjoy, never have, never will.

999. windelkin - October 2, 2013

Wow, this thread is really turning into a novel, isn’t it? Did anyone else think it strange that boborci was post #911? Conincidence, or conspiracy? HAha!
937- Disinvited: you said “monkeying around” with apes! God, I hope that was intentional. LOL
Kudos to Marja, Cyngus-X1, Trekkie Jan. Very well spoken. I would love to get all of us together in one room with Keachick, K-7, Mj and some of the other usual suspects to hash this out over drinks, especially Trekkie Jan now that I discover you to be a lady.
I may not post often, but I read most of the others and enjoy much of these conversations. If I had one wish, I’d just want us to keep it friendly, no mean spirits, and at some point close a subject we don’t agree on so we can move on other debates. But, what do I know?

1000. windelkin - October 2, 2013

Oh and one other thing. I didn’t get the impression the Enterprise was sabotaged my someone on board directly. I saw the movie twice and the way I understood it, the torpedoes were emitting some sort of radiation or field that was interrupting the antimatter flow or somethin in the warp core. Did I miss something?
Am I #1000? That would be cool!

1001. Keachick - October 2, 2013

#985 – You can’t be serious. This is stretching it a bit…

This was about who got voted as sexiest. This was not about the characters they played – just about who looked sexiest on camera…Benedict Cumberbatch came in ahead of everyone else. Then again, Empire is a British (online) publication so we could allow for a certain bias there…:) The reality is that a lot of people found Chris Pine etc more sexy than Karl Urban. It could be because Karl Urban, unfortunately, appears to have developed a permanent frown, a grouchy appearance, and that can be off putting to a lot of people.

1002. Keachick - October 2, 2013

Yes, windelkin, according to my screen, your post is indeed #1000!

I couldn’t care if the actors I am watching in a movie or TV series are Oscar/Emmy nominees or winners either. Good for those who do happen to be nominees or winners, but it is of little consequence to me.

1003. Cygnus-X1 - October 2, 2013

1000. windelkin – October 2, 2013

—Oh and one other thing. I didn’t get the impression the Enterprise was sabotaged by someone on board directly. I saw the movie twice and the way I understood it, the torpedoes were emitting some sort of radiation or field that was interrupting the antimatter flow or somethin in the warp core. Did I miss something?—

Not exactly. When the torpedoes are being loaded onto the Enterprise, Scotty protests that they won’t tell him what’s inside the torpedoes. Scotty says:

“A subtle shift in magnetic output from say, firing one or more of six dozen torpedoes with an unknown payload could set off a chain reaction which could kill every living thing on this ship.”

I’m not sure what exactly that’s supposed to mean in terms of a scientific explanation. One would imagine that the Enterprise’s warp core and other systems, with all of the pounding that we’ve seen them take from enemy fire and whatnot, would not be so delicate as to blow up the ship just because a slightly heavier or lighter torpedo is launched. It seems like an example of BAD SCIENCE to me, but that’s what Scotty says.

The torpedoes are never launched, though. The Enterprise mysteriously and suddenly drops out of warp as it approaches the Klingon Neutral Zone and Kirk leads an away team down to Kronos in a shuttle. The torpedoes remain aboard the Enterprise and are never launched.

1004. Keachick - October 2, 2013

I liked Meryl Steep in Mamma Mia but not in the films where she is playing some soulful personali