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Summer Box Office budget reduction – Trek 3 tidbits November 11, 2013

by Matt Wright , Filed under: ST: Into Darkness Sequel , trackback

In an article released by The Hollywood Reporter earlier this fall titled “Summer Box Office Fallout: Studios’ New Fear of the $200 Million Tentpole” there was a little bit about Trek 3’s (and the previous Trek movie’s) production costs.  Moving to a more film tax friendly location has long been the standard for movie companies. This year’s summer blockbuster season was bigger and more crowded than ever, with more disappointing domestic box office results for most movies this summer. It has already officially been confirmed that the follow up to Man of Steel, the as yet unnamed Batman/Superman movie will be filmed in Michigan for the tax credits. Moving production for the next Star Trek movie to a state or country more film tax friendly seems to be one of the main ways to keep costs in check for the 3rd Abramsverse movie, while still providing the excellent level of set design, visual effects, etc.

Paramount also will look to save money on another Star Trek — a franchise, but not quite in the top tier. This summer’s $190 million production Star Trek Into Darkness has earned over $462 million worldwide; its international haul has exceeded expectations at $234 million, but domestically, its $228.5 million hasn’t matched the first film. Whereas the first two were shot in L.A., the next will be filmed in a more tax-friendly location. “We’re making it for what it should have been shot for last time if we had made it outside of L.A., which we would have done except that [director J.J. Abrams] didn’t want to,” says a studio source. “That was a $20 million issue.”

The Hollywood Reporter

Comments

1. Russell Meyers - November 11, 2013

Vancouver here we come!?

2. Thorny - November 11, 2013

And so it begins. Penny-pinching at Paramount and the diminishing of Star Trek.

3. crazydaystrom - November 11, 2013

$170 million versus $190 million. It’s odd to say but 20 mil doesn’t seem like a huge difference all things considered. Hm. Definitely odd to say. Wish I had $20 million.

4. SoonerDave - November 11, 2013

First tangible studio indication there’d even BE a next movie. I mean, yeah, we knew there would be, but its but like they’re just thrilled at the prospect.

5. crazydaystrom - November 11, 2013

2. Thorny

A lower budget won’t necessarily be a bad thing. It’s not how much money is spent but how the money is spent.

6. Platitude - November 11, 2013

@5 Exactly. There was a huge budget reduction between The Motion Picture and Wrath of Kahn. I think most people will agree that WoK turned out O.K.

7. Ahmed - November 11, 2013

@ 1. Russell Meyers – November 11, 2013

“Vancouver here we come!?”

Or Toronto :)

8. Vultan - November 11, 2013

Sloppy storytelling is what diminishes Star Trek.

9. Mad Mann - November 11, 2013

This is good news. Lowering the budget is what Star Trek needs. Yeah, I know it sounds counterintuitive, but Star Trek should be about character and story, NOT spectacle and set-pieces. Taking away the toys will force the movie-makers to focus on what’s important to Star Trek. Like Platitude said, the best Star Trek movie of all, TWOK, was also the cheapest!

Star Trek does not need a street chase or crashing starships to be inspiring and remembered, it needs heart and those character moments that remind us why we fell in love with Trek in the first place.

The studio should quit trying to chase a billion dollar box office with a Star Trek film, it just ain’t gonna happen. Just let it be what it’s supposed to be.

10. Blue Thunder - November 11, 2013

#8 – Somthing that STC and SF can relate to.

11. Christopher - November 11, 2013

“a franchise, but not quite in the top tier. ”

Not in the top tier, is that supposed to be a joke?

12. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - November 11, 2013

It comes down to how good a Story it is. Because th Story was a weak. I only saw Trek 1 times at the box office. The Least amount I have seen any of the Trek Movies.

13. jas_montreal - November 11, 2013

I don’t mind lower budgets. Some of my favourite films have had extremely low budgets (wrath of khan anyone ?)

14. Phil - November 11, 2013

Top tier franchises are capable of producing billion dollar box office, and like it or not, Trek can’t. Unless someone makes a decision to toss canon, there are enough limitations to the base material that will prevent that from happening. Need proof? Look at the debate on killing Kirk. A handful of people (myself included) would have had no problem keeping him dead, and the reaction to that was that is was heresy to even suggest it. Trek is a solid franchise, but at the moment, Star Wars and Marvel are the gold standard. Trek would be better served by avoiding the gimmicky stories, and producing more movies on tighter budgets to rebuild the brand.

15. Phil - November 11, 2013

@2. Paramount surrendering 20MM to accommodate their production company is hardly penny pinching, it’s more social commentary on the state of the industry, and the rather repressive tax environment in the state of California. If moving the production to Michigan or Canada adds 20MM to the bottom line, that’s a smart business decision. Would STID have been diminished any with Vengeance burning in orbit as opposed to crashing into San Francisco? Or the closing chase not done on the flying whatever that thing was supposed to be? Probably not – just effects heavy movie making that was more style then substance. Gravity was made on almost half the budget, had A list actors, will do similar box office to STID, and probably be nominated for an Oscar. Don’t tell me we can’t do the same with Trek.

16. s. now - November 11, 2013

Puerto Rico USA has the best offers for movies, just saying…BOB and others…

17. Kev-1 - November 11, 2013

This could be a good thing. But it seems most of the money on STID went to CGI: I know they farmed out much CGI STID work anyway, so moving to Canada may not cut that budget much. I’m wondering if the production team now has to find a Canadian brewery? That’s location shooting where they could save money. I do feel that the dependence on spectacle is starting to bite them in the you know where. The long term revenue stream is in the design work they kind of disregarded for special effects; i.e. — Engineering (brewery) play set, blueprints, et al. I’m hoping they have a better plot. Gravity did very well with an intelligent story — yeah, it had flaws like every movie.

18. Hat Rick - November 11, 2013

I knew it.

Paramount is lowering the stakes because it isn’t quite as happy with STID as it wanted to be. I think all of us who follow ST can agree that the writing is on the wall and has been for some time. $190 million is not a budget Trek may ever seen again (if future budgets are adjusted for inflation).

The upside? At least they’re apparently talking about the next sequel.

The downside? We’re looking at a budget range for the next sequel between $120 million and $160 million, with about 95 percent confidence. That’s my best estimate.

CGI shots will be reduced by 15 to 20 percent, with maximum reuse of effects generated for STID (whether they made the final cut or not).

Good-bye, any chance of an “A”-list guest star.

That’s okay, because I think Trek can more than make up for it with a sufficiently good story.

But still, it’s a comedown for the franchise. And for that, we can thank the crappy scheduling skills and corporate (CBS versus Paramount) coordination that led to a four-year interregnum between ST(2009) and STID. In the same amount of time it took for us to get to STID from ST(2009), we had three — count’em — THREE Iron Man movies. And that doesn’t even count Iron Man’s appearances in The Avengers in the interim. As well, there were three — count ‘em — THREE Transformers movies in an approximately equivalent period (2007-2011) plus one to be released in 2014.

And Thor was released in 2011, reappeared in The Avengers last year, and by 2013 there’s already a sequel in the theaters.

It’s not for nothing that Agents of SHIELD is now a hit on TV — on TV, no less, which is where Trek found its origins.

What was Paramount thinking?

Even releasing STID in 2013 would have been relatively late.

And there were no practical reasons for waiting another entire year — the film was practically in final form by May of 2012.

Yes, I’m still bitter. Even though I love JJ Abrams’ Trek movies, it’s clearer and clearer to me that TPTB (The Powers That Be) fumbled the franchise and Trek has paid and is paying for it.

It’s sad when the most entertaining new thing is Trek is that Audi commercial featuring Nimoy and Quinto (Google it). And few of us seem to have taken notice of it, at that!

19. Hat Rick - November 11, 2013

“Even releasing STID in 2012 would have been relatively late,” is what I meant to say.

20. Marja - November 11, 2013

…but domestically, its $228.5 million hasn’t matched the first film.

I know I’ve harped on it some, but a little better domestic publicity a couple of months in advance woulda done yiz a world of good, Paramount. Don’t be eejits next time, awright?
——————————

3 Daystrom, Couldn’t agree more. I’d even be happy with 1/10 of that … and your #5,

“… it’s HOW the money is spent” YESS! EXACTLY.

————————–
9 Mad Mann, I CONCUR SO HARD. Everything you said here is right on target and should be heeded.

A Little ABC of Star Trek …

Acting, not “acting out” / Branching out, not Beating up / Curiousity, not cracking ribs / Discovery, not Death and Defence / Edifying, not Echoing all other successful films / Finding new ways, not Flying Fists / Graduating from Gratuitous violence / Heart, not hurting others / Intuition, IDIC and Inspiration not Injuries / ….

TREK, not Tentpoles.

Feel free to add your own alphabetic hoped-for qualities in the next film … [don’t want to use emoticons right now but you can read my smile I’m sure.]

21. Curious Cadet - November 11, 2013

@15. Phil,
“Gravity was made on almost half the budget, had A list actors, will do similar box office to STID, and probably be nominated for an Oscar. Don’t tell me we can’t do the same with Trek.”

In 38 days, Gravity has already earned $8 million more worldwide than STID earned during its entire run. Gravity is still bringing in over $10 million a week domestically and finished the weekend in 6th place after taking 4th during the week. Gravity is poised to do MUCH better box office than STID, for half the money.

And it will probably WIN an Oscar.

The problem is that as long as Paramount hires guys like Orci to do for Star Trek what he did for Transformers, then yes, I’m telling you Trek can’t do the same as Gravity.

22. Marja - November 11, 2013

14 Phil, “there are enough limitations to the base material that will prevent that from happening. Need proof? Look at the debate on killing Kirk. A handful of people (myself included) would have had no problem keeping him dead, and the reaction to that was that is was heresy to even suggest it.”

Ya, but … Marvel wouldn’t kill Iron Man, Thor, Capt America or any of the other superheroes, so wtf. Kirk is, kinda, Trek’s superhero [just look at what he survived in both new movies :P ]

I see your point, but I think the canon that stands in the way – and canon I would not want to change in Trek – is that Starfleet is [supposedly] not about destruction, dismay and death, it’s about exploring. Seems a little airy-fairy to the peeps in the Industry [a too-apt name] these days, they’d rather see disease and death wrapped in … oh wait.

23. GarySeven - November 11, 2013

I’m very upset about the budget reduction. I like Star Trek because of the special effects, all of the explosions. That’s why the original series spawned such longevity in the franchise: because it had a HUGE budget, and the focus was mostly on the special effects. The original series was so successful because it kept the action going at a frantic pace with hardly a moment to think and reflect on any important issues or ideas (ideas are so boring!) With this budget reduction, the whole franchise is in danger of becoming something thoughtful.
But wait, I need not worry so much. Abrams and Orci and company would never let that happen. It would lose too much money,and Abrams doesn’t really like all that philosophy stuff. The writing team will pull us through. Go Transformers!
I am reminded of that story of how Martin Luther King told Nichelle Nichols she simply must stay on Star Trek. He told her it was so important to have a show on the air that had a huge budget so that it could have non-stop special effects full of explosions and mindless action, without much deep social commentary. It is a message we must never forget.

24. Marja - November 11, 2013

15, Phil “Would STID have been diminished any with Vengeance burning in orbit as opposed to crashing into San Francisco? Or the closing chase not done on the flying whatever that thing was supposed to be? Probably not – just effects heavy movie making that was more style then substance.”

Yeah, the effect of giving Mr Abrams $20M more than he needed to make a good movie, in other words ;-)

25. Marja - November 11, 2013

17 Hat Rick, and I add to your gnashing of teeth [which I echo nearly word for word btw] that damn-awful “publicity” done in the US for STiD. Talk about last-minute, geez.

26. Marja - November 11, 2013

22 GarySeven, Sarcasm seen and appreciated! MLK to Ms Nichols particularly LOL.

27. Red Dead Ryan - November 11, 2013

The main reasons for the less-than-stellar domestic box office take had nothing to do with budget. It had to do with the fact that: a) the dumbass marketing strategy that had “Into Darkness” open internationally two or three weeks in advance of North America, thus allowing for the entire movie to be spoiled online, and b) CBS not willing to agree to a compromise over a marketing strategy Paramount and Bad Robot proposed that would favor nuTrek merchandise over TOS stuff. As a result, J.J Abrams is now directing the next “Star Wars” movie instead of the next “Star Trek” film.

It’s not about tax breaks here. It’s about the suits at Paramount and CBS frakking up the marketing and release of STID.

28. CmdrR - November 11, 2013

Georgia!!!! Great tax breaks.
They are building a huge studio complex literally 20 minutes from my house.

Welcome South Brother!

29. Red Dead Ryan - November 11, 2013

The main reason why TWOK was able to be made on the (relative) cheap was because CGI was still in its infancy, therefore limiting what can be depicted onscreen.

Today’s visual effects cost more because what has been seen in movies like “Avatar” (probably the closest comparison to the “exploring new worlds” angle of Trek) are extremely elaborate and realistic, requiring many more personnel and man-hours devoted to creating new worlds, building sets, and designing new aliens. Not to mention the salaries of all the new actors versus the old casts, and you already have a much higher cast.

“Gravity” featured only two main actors (plus a few extras), didn’t require many sets to be built, so that cut down on costs right off the bat. The visual effects would have cost a lot of money, but they also weren’t dealing with alien spaceships, alien worlds, or space battles. So I’m not sure this movie can be used as an accurate comparison.

The only way to do “Star Trek” properly is to hire a lot of talented individuals and top-notch resources to go along with a great team of writers who can deliver an epic story that thrills audiences and can match the scope of an “Avatar” or “Star Wars”.

And that all costs a lot of money, so if Paramount is looking to cut costs, then they will be forced to make smaller, cheaper Trek movies without the best talent that Hollywood has to offer. Sure, you can hire a cheap director, but then you won’t be getting access to the artists and writers that the big names are connected to. The end result will be a B-level blockbuster that mainly appeals to the fans, with mainstream audiences going elsewhere for there sci-fi fix.

30. Red Dead Ryan - November 11, 2013

CORRECTION:

“Not to mention the salaries of all the new actors versus the old casts, and you already have a much higher COST.”

Damn typos!!!

31. Vultan - November 11, 2013

We tried it once your way, Khan.
I’m laughing at the reduced budget.

32. Garak's Pride - November 11, 2013

Matt Wright,

Thanks for closing down that bad behaving guy on the other thread today.

Much appreciated!

33. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 11, 2013

Guys, that’s wishful thinking. Their is very little savings in filming in Canada anymore since the Canadian economy has been doing better than the U.S. economy the past several years. The U.S. $ and Canadian $ are pretty much equal now, whereas 6 years ago the CN $ was 1/3 cheaper.

Mexico hear we come would be my bet.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
7. Ahmed – November 11, 2013
@ 1. Russell Meyers – November 11, 2013

“Vancouver here we come!?”

Or Toronto :)

34. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 11, 2013

@28. RDR, you are generally right on the special effects costing more. However, now that they have two sets of special effects renderings done by ILM for ST 2009 and STID, there definitely should be some savings on the new movie.

35. Jack - November 11, 2013

2. Not necessarily.

Hey, Ender’s filmed in Louisiana for that reason.

And, yeah, films aren’t done in Canada as much as they used to be.

36. Red Dead Ryan - November 11, 2013

#33.

“@28. RDR, you are generally right on the special effects costing more. However, now that they have two sets of special effects renderings done by ILM for ST 2009 and STID, there definitely should be some savings on the new movie.”

I agree…but remember that Disney now owns ILM, and could jack up the rates for contracts with other studios like Paramount.

Now I suppose Paramount can go with WETA next time, but then they’d have to “rebuild” the visual effects, which would negate a lot of potential savings. Plus I don’t know if WETA would be much cheaper, either.

37. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 11, 2013

Jack,

Yea, I’d say Mexico or Eastern Europe if they go out of country, or a cheap U.S. state for filming like Louisiana, Michigan or Kentucky.

Star Trek is unusual in that they will have to move a lot of fixed set materials in storage in LA (i.e. the Enterprise sets), so that’s why I think Baja, Mexico might have a slight edge. Plus, Mexico is gaining traction again for flims now the crime wave is down — especially in Baja.

38. Red Dead Ryan - November 11, 2013

I believe that the soundstages and giant water tank built for “Titanic” are still standing in Baja, so it shouldn’t be hard or expensive to move the sets there.

39. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 11, 2013

@35

RDR,

I wonder if Paramount owns all of the computer special effects files for STID and ST-2009, or does ILM maintain those? Conceivably, if Paramount owns them, they could have a new firm use those as the starting point?

I’d love to see WETA get a shot at Star Trek.

40. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 11, 2013

@37. Yea, they have a 35-acre complex there that has been very active again recently.

41. Brett L. - November 11, 2013

@22
Don’t forget that TOS wasn’t only a success because of its huge budget and mind-numbing explosions. TOS was all about showcasing the variety of things one can destroy when motivated by vengeance: buildings, ships, cities, planets…we learned that when things are destroyed in spectacular fashion, they create debris that makes it difficult for other ships and men in spacesuits to fly through.

TOS was also a success because it wasn’t “too cerebral.” So fear not, because smaller budget or no, as long as we have volcano freezing devices and transwarp transporters that make space travel and the very premise of Star TREK obsolete, I have every confidence that science or anything else “cerebral” won’t get in the way of the next film.

42. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - November 11, 2013

I read recently that the ‘Titanic’ water tank was used for All Is Lost, which was filmed in 2012.

43. Bill Peters - November 11, 2013

I wish you guys would stop be such downers on the next flim, WE know Paramount can make a great Trek film and that we can’t judge something based on statements like we want to save money, of course the studio’s want to save money, it means more profits for them, it doesn’t however mean a lack luster next Trek Film, Many people I see post here want Trek to be A,B,C and D and if it isn’t to them it isn’t Trek, but I tell you Trek has been Different inbteween TOS and ENT, and that we can Live with IDIC for Trek to make sure we keep on getting new trek.

44. Red Dead Ryan - November 11, 2013

MJ,

I would assume that Paramount would own the rights to the visual effects…but then again, I’m not sure how that all works. Maybe ILM gets royalties everytime that their effects are used?

I believe that ILM did effects work for TNG, but only for “Encounter At Farpoint”. Paramount cut ties with them afterward to save costs, but not sure if they had to pay royalties afterward. I know “ILM” was still listed in the end credits despite working only on a single episode of the show, so maybe they do get royalties, and that Paramount acknowledges that in the end credits. I might be wrong about this though.

45. Nachum - November 11, 2013

Well, if Abrams will be making Star Wars in England, maybe it would be good to have Trek nearby.

In any event, sci fi is not a genre that’s too dependent on location. There’s no need to make a San Francisco-heavy movie after the amount it got in the first two.

(Thinking now…I think all but two of the original ten have at least some scenes on Earth. Interesting.)

46. jed - November 12, 2013

It just Bugs me so much that virtually every bit of press JJ did for STID
began with him saying he wasn’t a trek fan and he prefered Star Wars.
But I think Abrams’ Trek is spot on in every way, except his somewhat bizzare way of marketing his own trek movies.

47. Cyrus - November 12, 2013

This is another indication that politicians in my home state (California) are idiots (as if there was any doubts before). They are driving away an industry that is globally associated with Hollywood/California. No wonder that despite some of highest taxes (income, property, consumption) among states we still have yearly budget deficits.

48. Admiral_Bumblebee - November 12, 2013

They should not only exchange the director but the whole team, even the writers to create something different. They need another round of fresh blood for the franchise.

49. Oscar - November 12, 2013

, Gravity budget: $ 100.000.000
Ender Game, Oblivion,After Earth budget:$110-140.000.000
I mean, Star Trek needs new brave ideas, not recycled material and mega budgets for fireworks. It needs a new Team.

50. Bobby - November 12, 2013

Dear Star Trek,

Come to Atlanta. It’s where the players play. It has a lot of futuristic looking building features and laboratorys (with the CDC, USGS, and Georgia Tech), low taxes, a booming TV and film industry, and Zachary Quinto will have a great hangout place.

There’s only one rule: DO NOT BRING YOUR POLITICS HERE OR TRY TO CHANGE ANYTHING!!!!! It will only bring down this nice haven absent of your progressive ideology. We all seem to be getting along politically and we don’t want to upset the balance of our lifestyle, which is why I don’t attempt moving to LA and interfering with your crazy area. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Citizens of Atlanta

51. Oscar - November 12, 2013

@26 Red Read Ryan.
«CBS not willing to agree to a compromise over a marketing strategy Paramount and Bad Robot proposed that would favor nu trek merchandise over TOS stuff»
Maybe because CBS earns a lot of money with TOS stuff or because TOS is a cult series and nu trek only a short lived fashion.

52. Jim, London - November 12, 2013

The story needs to move away from Earth – time to make new stories as it were in deep space. Its also fair to say the Klingons need to have a expanded rile in the next movie.

53. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

30. Vultan – November 11, 2013

Haha!

54. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

Gravity had a total of SEVEN actors. SEVEN.

Star Trek won’t be doing what Gravity did on Gravity’s budget unless the sequel does a crossover reboot of that Twilight Zone episode where Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, Chekov, and Sulu wake up inside a giant cylinder with no ceiling, no memory of who they are, and the entire movie is about them trying to climb to the top and look outside for answers.

55. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

I personally won’t be on board for a Star Trek where Kirk is permanently gone and Spock is the lead of the franchise. That is not the Star Trek I love or the one that I will in any way support. And you can’t get my support on a technicality: “Oh but it’s an AU!!!”

Yeah, right. Maybe some of you will show up for a Superman movie where Jimmy Olson is the star, but not me.

But I would almost rather know that Kirk was permanently dead than that he continues to be the pinata in charge of the Enterprise. As I said, I won’t be watching that new Star Trek, but at least I’ll be content knowing they aren’t continuing to make a joke out of the character.

If they think Spock is such a strong badass character, then let him try to carry the franchise and see what happens.

56. Curious Cadet - November 12, 2013

@52 dmduncan,

Yes and two of those 7 actors in Gravity are responsible for probably at least a third of the budget. Just look at what they did with the other two thirds.

You’ll have a hard time cnvincing me that STIDs cast cost $120 million.

57. Danpaine - November 12, 2013

30. Vultan – November 11, 2013
We tried it once your way, Khan.
I’m laughing at the reduced budget
—————————–
Classic. Very funny.

Lower budget sounds ok to me. I think it’s pretty cheap to film in Pittsburgh.

Emphasis on Story and Characterization instead of blow-em-up action! Yes! And let’s have the E actually kick someone’s a** this time around. A proper space battle is in order.

58. Curious Cadet - November 12, 2013

@52. dmduncan,
“Star Trek won’t be doing what Gravity did on Gravity’s budget unless the sequel does a crossover reboot of that Twilight Zone episode where Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, Chekov, and Sulu wake up inside a giant cylinder with no ceiling, no memory of who they are, and the entire movie is about them trying to climb to the top and look outside for answers.”

That’s a bit of a stretch, don’t you think?

One really need look no further than Alien, or Promethius, to see what can be done in what is essentially a “bottle episode” on a limited budget, with a limited cast.

All that’s needed is a good script.

59. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

56. Curious Cadet – November 12, 2013

“That’s a bit of a stretch, don’t you think?”

For an obvious joke? Nah. Not really.

“All that’s needed is a good script.”

So just go shopping at the Good Script Store?

You need MORE than what you think is a “good script.” Hollywood shrink wraps pallets of “good” scripts and then stores them in its secret warehouse in the New Mexico desert without ever producing them.

60. KingDaniel - November 12, 2013

No-one will be able to tell the difference between a $190-million budget and the $170-million (plus move to cheaper filming locations, negating the drop) budget of STXIII.

This isn’t gonna be the difference between TMP and WoK, here. If it was good enough for Man of Steel’s sequel, it’s good enough for Trek’s, too.

61. Captain Hackett - November 12, 2013

7. Ahmed – November 11, 2013
@ 1. Russell Meyers – November 11, 2013

“Vancouver here we come!?”

Or Toronto :)
=================================

Ottawa! More and more futuristic buildings have popped up here lately.

:)

62. Colin - November 12, 2013

I don’t know if Klingons can be a credible villian for the next movie. They are shown to be incapable of defending their space, much less their homeworld, in the last movie. And, in the comics – which are right now the only source of information on this alternate universe – the Klingon homeworld is being destroyed by a combined Romulan/Section 31 armada.

I don’t know about you guys, but I am tired of revenge genre films. There have been three films in this genre, starting with Nemesis. The villain has an agenda against the Federation, intends to destroy Earth, and has a massive ship built to house their massive ego. Enouigh.

A franchise can have a formula. However, the writers have to make each film in the franchise a little different to distinguish it from the film before and the film after. Look at the Bond franchise. We know the formula; however, the TPTB constantly stir up it, and, when it becomes stale, they admit their failings and find ways to make the next film better.

I fear that the next film will be another revenge genre film with a convoluted plot.

As for the budget, maybe I am reading too much into this, but I get the impresson that Paramount is happy not to have JJ Abrams at the helm. I get the impression that whoever replaces him will be more amenable to the studio’s wishes. (I found the comment about the cost of production, and the fact that Abrams was mentiioned in that comment, as a dig at him.)

Finally, one of the big reasons that the film didn’t fare as well was the marketing strategy – JJ Abrams and his Mystery Box. When your audience can figure out who the villain is, before the film is premiered, than isn’t a mystery anymore.

63. Calastir - November 12, 2013

I blame Abrams and his damn mystery box.

That concept nearly killed the franchise, luckily we as hardcore fans endure with our hope for a better future.

64. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 12, 2013

Bring it to Pittsburgh.

Reasons?

1. We were awesome at hosting the Dark Knight.

2. We are at the forefront of Science in the country.

3. it’s Spock’s (Zachary Quinto) hometown!

65. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

I get the impression that JJ is still that 12 year old kid making movies in Super 8. He’s not really that interested in engaging the mind, and part of STID’s problem is that it was written with JJ in mind as its director by folks who know how he thinks and what he likes.

With JJ out as director I think a whole new world of possibility opens up.

66. oscar - November 12, 2013

STAR TREK 2016 budget: $ 120 000 000….a cheap director, cheap guest stars…And poor ideas, STAR TREK: space cowboys III…aka Supervillain Z attacks again…
Not happy anniversary…
Paramount and Bad Robot do not deserve STAR TREK.

67. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@ 27. Red Dead Ryan – November 11, 2013

“The main reasons for the less-than-stellar domestic box office take had nothing to do with budget. It had to do with the fact that: a) the dumbass marketing strategy that had “Into Darkness” open internationally two or three weeks in advance of North America, thus allowing for the entire movie to be spoiled online”

Totally agree with you. In the age of Internet & twitter, it was a very dumb move to open it first outside North America. The entire plot of STID was all over the Internet. I tried to keep away from spoilers but it was almost impossible. By the time the movie was released in North America, everything was known about the movie, no surprises left.

I hope that for the next movie, they will release the movie first in North America or at least release it worldwide in the same week.

68. LogicalLeopard - November 12, 2013

“Whereas the first two were shot in L.A., the next will be filmed in a more tax-friendly location.”

YAY!!! Road trip to Cleveland, two hours away! Or better yet, road trip to Detroit, 1 hour away…..

Er….except that with Detroit, they may run into some problems….

Kirk: *After having Sulu set the Enterprise down in a park* Okay, everybody remember where we parked……

Kirk: *An hour later* Hey, uhm….Scotty….you didn’t by any chance use a stolen Romulan cloaking device on the Enterprise, did you?”

Scotty: “Er…I dinnae know what you’re talking about, Captain….where is my girl!?!?!?!”

Spock: Scans show that there is no trace of tachyon particles, or any other indication the ship is closed. The ship is gone, sir…”

Kirk: GONE!?!?! We’ve only been away for an HOUR?

Spock: Logically, we probably should have paid that kid who offered to watch our starship. This is Detroit, after all. It was probably gone in 10 minutes.

Kirk: So, what do we do now?

Spock: Call 911 and wait for a police response….which should occur by 2375. Correction, I will wait here that long, it is uncertain if your health and human longevity will allow you to do the same….

69. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

“Pacific Rim” was filmed in Toronto & Guillermo del Toro was very happy working in Toronto:

“Toronto has the best crews in the world,” the filmmaker said without hesitation. “I love Toronto, I love it with a passion. I love the cinematheque, I love the bookstores, I love the restaurants, I love the people, and above everything else I love the crews.”

“I plan to continue shooting in Toronto for as long as I can,” del Toro announced,

http://ca.movies.yahoo.com/blogs/wide-screen/pacific-rim-director-guillermo-del-toro-shooting-toronto-153348912.html

@Bob, come here & shoot the next Trek movie in Toronto :)

70. Adam Bomb 1701 - November 12, 2013

A lot of the costs of “The Motion Picture” did not show up on the screen. “TMP”‘s pricetag of $44-45 million included millions spent on effects footage that had to be thrown away, as it was unusable. Also, its cost included all the false starts from 1975-78 in getting a “Trek” movie off the ground, as well as the start-up costs for the never-made “Phase II” series. At the time, “TMP””s budget was almost scandalous; these days it looks quaint.

71. oscar - November 12, 2013

65
Ok, Abrams is out as director and will be producer only in name…
It means Roberto Orci (writer and producer) will be the boss now…
Gasp…And, sorry, Orci without Abrams or Michael Bay is nothing…
Ender s game, Cowboys and dinosaurs, the island…crash, crash and crash and low -mediocre scores IN rottentomatoes , metacritic OR Imdb…

72. PleasureGirl1990 - November 12, 2013

R.I.P Star Trek

73. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@ 72. PleasureGirl1990 – November 12, 2013

“R.I.P Star Trek”

Never give up. Never surrender.

74. TUP - November 12, 2013

Someone on the other board made the interesting point that when they saw the first trailer for Lone Ranger and saw the hero being made into a comedy act, they knew it would flop.

I relate that to Star Trek and the presentation of James Kirk. People can joke about William Shatner but thats the Kirk that people want.

Also, Paramount screwed up the marketing which wasnt entirely their fault. The producers’ insistance on lying about Khan and saving it for the big surprise (which was flat) impacted marketing of the film also.

75. Danpaine - November 12, 2013

Interesting read:

http://theweek.com/article/index/252347/how-the-next-star-trek-movie-can-surpass-star-wars-episode-vii

76. Check the Circuit - November 12, 2013

Take a deep breath. This isn’t about cutting the budget. It’s about getting the same for less. JJ paid a premium to shoot in LA. Going elsewhere is pretty smart actually.

You won’t notice a difference on the screen.

I shot a commercial in Sao Paulo for 1/3 less than what it would have cost in LA…including the extra travel costs.

It’s all good. Trek 3 is not going to look like a TV episode.

77. Steve S - November 12, 2013

YAY MICHIGAN!

78. Bill Peters - November 12, 2013

#76 I agree :)

79. Check the Circuit - November 12, 2013

@ 50 Bobby

Hysterical!

“Come to Atlanta. Spend your millions. We welcome you with open arms…as long as you behave exactly the way we want you to. Don’t you dare bring your funny Blue State notions to our perfectly ordered Red State. We have Thought Police and they are armed.”

Bobby, have you ever seen a show called Star Trek? The one with the IDIC philosophy in it?

80. Ensign RO- (Short for Roland) - November 12, 2013

Where ever it is filmed, I’m sure J.J. will want a city with a brewery. ;-)

81. Hugh Hoyland - November 12, 2013

I think some people are reading more into this than whats actually there. This is not similar to what happened between TMP and STTWOK (which actually WAS a budget cut, and a big one at that).

The studio is doing what most studios do now, move the production outside of CA so it can avoid the higher tax rate there. I really think its as simple as that. That doesnt mean a return to paper mache sets and a story where Kirk and Spock are stuck on an astroid talking about the meaning of life with just a few scenes of stock footage from ST09 and STID thrown in of the Enterprise flying thru space. :}

82. Carl LaFong - November 12, 2013

Cut off the expensive dead-weight of Orci/Kurtzman; let Cornish scribble his own story, and you’ll likely have a better film AND a reduced budget right there. This isn’t rocket science, folks; there are just too many Hollywood egos to placate…

When Meyer was left on his own with a TV movie budget, he concocted the most memorable film and revitalized the entire endeavor.

83. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

75. Danpaine – November 12, 2013

I’d like to agree with that guy but he’s just another Kirk hater. Every few years some guy crawls into the light and verily declares that Star Trek needs not the man of Kirk! But I’d enjoy it for them to try that if only because of how much entertaining stuff it will allow me to post after the result comes out. So yeah, try building the franchise around Spock. Give all those who live vicariously through the eyes of Spock and who feel that they never got their due because Kirk was in the way their fantasy.

It’s already making me chuckle. They tried to do that once and there was a lesson in it.

But it gave me the title for the next film: The Search For Kirk. Because the man is MIA, and unlike many of you who think he will surely arrive in the next film, I’m just not so sure because there was no need to make him a dunce in STID at all.

I’ve pointed out before how TNG historically fit into George HW Bush’s New World Order-ism. Not that there was any behind the scenes collaboration, of course, but it was the zeitgeist. With TNG you could just SEE clearly what was being hoped for and really what the public had believed had arrived.

And Spock was the ambassador of New World Orderism. He was the bridge between the old world and the new one they thought they were making. Kirk was portrayed as a “cowboy” who made rash decisions on his own, who broke the rules; Picard made it very clear that starfleet had moved on from that, and Ambassador Spock was the bridge whereby they attempted to join the old world and the new. See he was also an ambassador between the worlds of fandom.

Sorry to tell you, but Spock doesn’t span the generations because he’s the strongest character, but because he represents the spirit that a certain group of people want us all to have so that we can all be members of a new society which they perceive Kirk to be anathema to. Kirk represents to them everything they hate and they keep trying to kill him, but they can’t keep him down.

Spock fits the meme they are trying to purvey—which is also not the one the public is interested in paying to see.

Now, in ST.09 Spock Prime performs the function of shuttling us back to the beginning, but after STID it looks like they are trying to rewrite that beginning through the eyes of how the TNG “New World Order” crowd thinks it ought to have been written in the first place.

So here’s my advice: STOP viewing Kirk through TNG and the zeitgesit of the 1990’s.

84. VulcanFilmCritic - November 12, 2013

What difference does it make where it’s filmed? It’s a space opera. Unless time travel is involved, specific location shooting is not necessary. So let’s move!

As for the budget, it’s great to have some of the pressure removed in having to turn ST into some kind of tentpole movie. In 50 years it has NEVER been a huge draw so why expect it to turn into that now? ST has a certain cultish appeal, as well as general audience appeal; the fans are about as loyal as any, but the general audience is very fickle. The fans will show up (at least once) no matter what is produced. And the general public will show up if the movie is good. Most of the fireworks ST09 were emotional rather than purely visual. Make it good, starting with the script!

Remember that the best episode of ST the TOS universe took place in the dingy rooms of a rooming house, a soup kitchen, and on the generic city streets of the back lot. Obviously a movie needs a lot more, but “heart” goes a long way as well. So let’s hope that Kirk is not a jerk, Spock is not a figure of fun, the ladies are not just parent-approved eye candy, and the villain is not yesterday’s meal. So make it original!

We are talking about the future, so can we please have some science fiction while we’re at it?

85. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

79. Check the Circuit – November 12, 2013

Funny, but he has a point. I used to live in a city that got a LOT of ex-Los Angelenos and Californians and what do they do politically? Repeat every mistake that made the place they ran away from such a runawayable from place.

Idiots.

And that doesn’t even touch upon all the morons who move out to the country and then complain that suddenly there’s dangerous wildlife in their backyards.

That’s the consequence of living in your fantasies. You start to believe that any outcome you want is possible from any thing you do.

86. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

Hey if they’re looking at Cornish, why not Edgar Wright? And why not give Simon Pegg Lindelof’s chair in the writer’s den? Shaun of the Dead was absolutely brilliant both in its writing and cinematic style.

And please don’t tell me that it was a comedy so they can’t do anything serious. Please. Please don’t. Pretty please. With a cherry on top. Don’t.

87. Optimistic Doodle - November 12, 2013

@75: Thank you.

Personal addendum:

A new television series ought to respect the ‘original’ timeline, IMHO. (Movies are another beast.) Because such a rich history adds a layer without being an obstacle. Consistency. I guess it’s a bit like moving FORWARD but at the same time remembering WW I & II.

The universe, the Star Trek universe as we’ve been so lucky to watch on tv & cinema, remains pretty BIG. Big enough in space AND TIME. Why not simply warp FORWARD IN TIME… Being it optimistic ;-) franchise evolution! Somewhat like an evergrowing family tree, fresh but never losing the connection, boldly going…

Which Kirk & crew do you want to remember, matters, when you differ them in 2, 5, 10+ alternate universes?

I’d prefer the original ;-)

88. TUP - November 12, 2013

if you’re looking for a writer, it should start and end with Nick Meyer.

89. Oscar - November 12, 2013

Roberto Orci 2016
As producer
Van Helsing and secret cabinet
As writer
Amazing Spider-Man 3, Van Helsing, secret cabinet, Star Trek 3
+ tv shows…
If Star Trek 3 has a silly and weak plot, you know why, He is a very very busied man with a lot of non trek stuff
Maybe Star trek needs a less busied man…

90. Danpaine - November 12, 2013

83. dmduncan – November 12, 2013

Oh, I certainly agree with you that Kirk has been written as a second-rate player in this incarnation. “Dunce,” indeed, and on energy drink. I see very little of the character Kirk NEEDS to be to make his legacy, his command of respect, his excellence work in this timeline. And this has very little to do with Shatner in my mind – it has everything to do with how the character of Kirk is being written now. Wimpy and impulsive.

Keeping him killed off in the last film would have been a bold and decisive move, IMO (and please no magic blood, ever), but as an old-time fan, no Kirk going forward would leave too much of a hole in my soul.

Star Trek needs it’s cowboy. In my opinion, of course.

91. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

@82 “Cut off the expensive dead-weight of Orci/Kurtzman; let Cornish scribble his own story, and you’ll likely have a better film AND a reduced budget right there.”

No offense, dude, but that is dumb as sand.

92. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

BTW,

I am actually thinking that “Game Hen” (my nickname for Cornish), supported by Orci and Kurtzman, is going to be able to be more creative and be less encumbered without JJ flapping around and trying to control things, and with out Lindelof to add some stuff stuff to the screenplay. And Bob learns from his mistakes — I really believe that.

I am very optimistic for this next movie. We are going to get a movie that is more scifi and less rushed.

93. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

mean to say “without Lindelof to add some dumb stuff to the screenplay.”

94. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@ 91. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 12, 2013

“@82 “Cut off the expensive dead-weight of Orci/Kurtzman; let Cornish scribble his own story, and you’ll likely have a better film AND a reduced budget right there.”

No offense, dude, but that is dumb as sand.”

Why ? You think that Bob & Alex are irreplaceable ?

95. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

Except that Pacific Rim cost $190M to make as well — in Toronto — and without name actors.

That is not the kind of savings that I think Paramount will be looking for. There is just not much of a cost advantage for Toronto or Vancouver versus LA. I think the reason PacRim and White House down filmed there was access to huge sets and acres of land — which were special rqmts of those two films.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
69. Ahmed – November 12, 2013
“Pacific Rim” was filmed in Toronto & Guillermo del Toro was very happy working in Toronto:

“Toronto has the best crews in the world,” the filmmaker said without hesitation. “I love Toronto, I love it with a passion. I love the cinematheque, I love the bookstores, I love the restaurants, I love the people, and above everything else I love the crews.”

“I plan to continue shooting in Toronto for as long as I can,” del Toro announced,

http://ca.movies.yahoo.com/blogs/wide-screen/pacific-rim-director-guillermo-del-toro-shooting-toronto-153348912.html

@Bob, come here & shoot the next Trek movie in Toronto :)

96. MJB - November 12, 2013

89. Oscar

Bob Orci won’t be the sole writer or producer. He has Kurtzman to co-write and I believe he stated they’ll need to bring in a 3rd writer. Maybe the 3rd writer will also be the director.
These guys are pros – their movies have made multi-BILLIONS of dollars so they have a proven track record.
Bob & friends will deliver an awesome 50th anniversary movie. And I also think he is quietly working on getting the rights to produce a new Trek TV series. Don’t forget the K/O has a deal with CBS Television to produce new TV shows so I’m sure they are going to do their best on getting CBS to green light Star Trek for TV.

97. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

@95

Hey, so you want to leave the franchise with this guy who has filmed one minor movie that none of us had ever heard of?

Yea, that’s dumb as sand.

I think Game Hen can do a good job in working with Orci and Kurtzman, but not by just himself on this. Their needs to be some continuity, with basic Star Trek aspects to continue from the last two films.

I know you would love to give Orci the boot, Ahmed, but I would ask you to think more logically about this, my friend.

98. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

@MJB “Bob Orci won’t be the sole writer or producer. He has Kurtzman to co-write and I believe he stated they’ll need to bring in a 3rd writer. Maybe the 3rd writer will also be the director. These guys are pros – their movies have made multi-BILLIONS of dollars so they have a proven track record.
Bob & friends will deliver an awesome 50th anniversary movie. And I also think he is quietly working on getting the rights to produce a new Trek TV series.”

Good post, MJB — AHMED, this is more of what I was trying to say above.

99. crazydaystrom - November 12, 2013

75. Danpaine
Yes very interesting read indeed. I strongly disagree with his ‘gut the cast/kill off Kirk’ idea because 1)TOS Trek sans Captain James T. Kirk is a concept that’s just too wrong to even ponder IMO, and 2) Chris Pine is by far my favorite actor of the new cast. But the article’s Lindelof quote is rather telling. It explains a lot about STID- it was the result of formula not vision. I want more from the next movie but perhaps we’ll have to wait until the next regime of creators take the helm.

100. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

“Game Hen”, hee hee! :-)

I just hope that Joe Cornish doesn’t get into a game of “chicken” with the writers or studio, otherwise, someone is going to have egg all over their face! :-)

101. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

Many, many movie have, for decades, been filmed outside of CA for various reasons, including economics, and there are always people like you who try to make it into some sort of political message.

As someone who live’s in California myself, I am very satisfied to live in what I think is the best place in the world to live in, and I frankly would rather that malcontents like you here would just stop bitching about California, and move to Texas where you can get everything is cheap, and where nobody gives a shit about the people and the land.

PS: There has not been a budget deficit in California in 3 years. Read the newspapers a bit, you might learn something.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
47. Cyrus – November 12, 2013
This is another indication that politicians in my home state (California) are idiots (as if there was any doubts before). They are driving away an industry that is globally associated with Hollywood/California. No wonder that despite some of highest taxes (income, property, consumption) among states we still have yearly budget deficits.

102. crazydaystrom - November 12, 2013

96. MJB
Bob & friends will deliver an awesome 50th anniversary movie.

Dear God, let it be so!

97. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!!
Their needs to be some continuity, with basic Star Trek aspects to continue from the last two films.

This I do agree with. But I want to see more truly basic Trek aspects from pre-Bad Robot Trek as influences and less Star Wars. I believe balance is the key. And vision.

103. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

90. Danpaine – November 12, 2013

Kirk takes a stand on things. You may agree with him, you may not, but by taking the stand he does he also makes you think about things. Consequently, TOS distinguishes itself by making you reflect on controversial issues, as opposed to TNG which seemed to be part of some social engineering program.

When Kirk gives rifles to the villagers in A Private Little War, it really makes me think about the morality of his actions. Kirk thinks he’s right, and I see his point, but I’m not necessarily sold on the idea. And I love his character for being able to take the stance he does without also making me feel like I have to be on his side.

I just watched that episode recently and I came away from it once again thinking about the issues involved—not cheerleading Kirk’s decision.

THAT is Kirk’s value. Spock’s value has been to be the representative of the cold hard facts, but now he’s being humanized because people will not identify with that Spock as a main character after Kirk is transformed into Captain Dunce. So now Spock can be everything. It’s the only way to outperform Kirk.

When it’s convenient for Spock to be coldly logical, that’s what he is, and when it’s necessary for him to turn into The Incredible Spulk, that’s what he’ll do, and when they need him to be the detached, calmly logical ladies man—why then out of the pages of a Jane Austen novel he rides, all under the explanation that this is an AU, and to the great happiness of all those Salieries who think Mozart is finally getting the misfortune he is due.

104. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@ 98. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 12, 2013

“@MJB “Bob Orci won’t be the sole writer or producer. He has Kurtzman to co-write and I believe he stated they’ll need to bring in a 3rd writer. Maybe the 3rd writer will also be the director. These guys are pros – their movies have made multi-BILLIONS of dollars so they have a proven track record.
Bob & friends will deliver an awesome 50th anniversary movie. And I also think he is quietly working on getting the rights to produce a new Trek TV series.”

Good post, MJB — AHMED, this is more of what I was trying to say above.”

Of course I don’t want Cornish or any inexperienced director to have full control of Trek. My point that we already seen two movies by the current writing team, why not bring in new writers to bring something fresh ? It is not like Bob & Alex are the only ones in Hollywood who write movies.

But this is all a moot point, since Paramount already hired them for the 3rd movie.

“and I believe he stated they’ll need to bring in a 3rd writer”

Good as long as they keep Lindelof away.

105. TUP - November 12, 2013

re: Orci et al delivering a great 50th Anniversary movie.

I doubt it. I think they will deliver a decent movie that takes place during the 50th Anniversary but it wont be an epic “50th Anniversary movie”. Imagine, this is a franchise that is 50 years old and there is little to no consideration at having the original James Kirk in the film.

That is preposterous.

106. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

“Imagine, this is a franchise that is 50 years old and there is little to no consideration at having the original James Kirk in the film. That is preposterous.”

Sounds like sound judgment to me. We’ve done so many sendoffs for the original actors already. Enough!

The next movie needs to be Star Trek, not Weekend at Bernies with some practically 90-year old fat guy making non Trek fans laugh in the audience.

107. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

104. Ahmed – November 12, 2013

He WON’T have full control. Half of his sets (and who knows what the sequel is about? Maybe ALL of the sets) have been built. Bob and Alex will do the narrative heavy lifting by writing the story.

Whoever they pick to direct has to be technically COMPETENT—just competent—and good enough with actors.

They don’t need an auteur, they need an Irvin Kershner.

108. Danpaine - November 12, 2013

99. crazydaystrom – November 12, 2013
It explains a lot about STID- it was the result of formula not vision. I want more from the next movie but perhaps we’ll have to wait until the next regime of creators take the helm.

103. dmduncan – November 12, 2013
THAT is Kirk’s value. Spock’s value has been to be the representative of the cold hard facts, but now he’s being humanized because people will not identify with that Spock as a main character after Kirk is transformed into Captain Dunce. So now Spock can be everything. It’s the only way to outperform Kirk.

Spot on, comments. Spot….on. Not a big fan of the “Spock Show.” And someone here asked a good question – how do you legitimize Kirk as the leader he’s supposed to be in this next film, after he was so Lame in the last one? (No slight on Chris Pine, I’m talking about the writing of the character).

109. TUP - November 12, 2013

106. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 12, 2013
“Imagine, this is a franchise that is 50 years old and there is little to no consideration at having the original James Kirk in the film. That is preposterous.”

Sounds like sound judgment to me. We’ve done so many sendoffs for the original actors already. Enough!

The next movie needs to be Star Trek, not Weekend at Bernies with some practically 90-year old fat guy making non Trek fans laugh in the audience.

*** I disagree. William Shatner is a multiple-time award winner. He has done very well for himself in comedic roles but don’t kid yourself, he can act. If any non-trekkie sees Shatner and thinks “fat” rather than “wow, he looks, moves, speaks wonderfully for nearly 90 years old”, they are ignorant.

Thje problem is, they did the ill-advised Khan story and now are under pressure to do an “orginal” story. The 50th anniversary deserves something that pays tribute to the entire body of work. No one is snickering at the X-Men franchise which is combining two time-lines, it’s considered “unique, cool and epic”.

My preference would be “undoing” the new Universe with an epic movie that spans the generations. But thats me.

110. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@ 106. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 12, 2013

“The next movie needs to be Star Trek, not Weekend at Bernies with some practically 90-year old fat guy making non Trek fans laugh in the audience.”

Both Shatner & Nimoy are 83 years old, yet that didn’t stop Abrams from having Nimoy in the new movies TWICE.

111. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

Yes, I agree that Trek has to move on from Shatner, Nimoy, etc. Shatner simply isn’t in the shape needed to credibly play the role of Kirk anymore, and Nimoy’s appearance in STID was not necessary. Spock Prime had a perfect send-off in “Star Trek” and I wish they had left it at that.

I think we’ve gone to the well too many times now in regards to cameos and “passings of the torch”.

Time for the new actors to pick up the reigns and carry the torch.

112. govna - November 12, 2013

penny pinching forces the hand of creativity. this is a GOOD thing.

113. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

108. Danpaine – November 12, 2013

Spot on, comments. Spot….on. Not a big fan of the “Spock Show.” And someone here asked a good question – how do you legitimize Kirk as the leader he’s supposed to be in this next film, after he was so Lame in the last one? (No slight on Chris Pine, I’m talking about the writing of the character).

***

You have to radically depart from the thinking about Kirk you just put into 4 hours of Star Trek, and you have to reel Spock back in.

But there’s no chance my specific suggestions will be listened to specifically.

It’s not hard. Decades of Star Trek contain the template for how to do it.
But they have to want to do it.

114. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@109. TUP

“No one is snickering at the X-Men franchise which is combining two time-lines, it’s considered “unique, cool and epic”.”

I was thinking about that while watching ” X-Men: Days Of Future Past” trailer. Why not do something like that for the 50th anniversary, bring people from different timelines & different eras, like Picard, the original Kirk & so on in an epic Star Trek movie ?

Don’t give us another revenge movie, try something unique & worthy of the anniversary.

115. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

#109.

“Thje problem is, they did the ill-advised Khan story and now are under pressure to do an “orginal” story. The 50th anniversary deserves something that pays tribute to the entire body of work. No one is snickering at the X-Men franchise which is combining two time-lines, it’s considered “unique, cool and epic”.

My preference would be “undoing” the new Universe with an epic movie that spans the generations. But thats me.”

Firstly, the “X-Men” movie franchise is not even fifteen years old. Secondly, they established the new cast to take over the lead from Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellan, Hugh Jackman, et al. I suspect that after this movie, you won’t be seeing any more of the old cast (except for Jackman, who looks like he’ll continue doing “Wolverine” movies) return.

Secondly, the prime timeline is already stuffed with canon. Just what are you going to work with that will still be fresh and new, not something similar to what had come before?

Finally, your ideas sound more like fan-appeasement than interesting storytelling.

116. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@115. Red Dead Ryan

“Secondly, the prime timeline is already stuffed with canon. Just what are you going to work with that will still be fresh and new, not something similar to what had come before?”

Right, I forget that STID was “fresh and new, not something similar to what had come before” !!

117. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

I will also add that most of the older “X-Men” cast members have been doing other Hollywood movies in between films. They are still in demand.

You can’t say the same about the TOS cast for the most part. Shatner is mostly doing music recordings and documentaries, Nimoy is doing photography, Takei is doing some voice work, and the others aren’t really acting much anymore.

The non-Trek crowd simply don’t care about Shatner and co. They’re more interested in the new cast, if they’re even interested at all.

118. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

#116.

STID wasn’t perfect, but it certainly felt a lot more “fresh and new” than any of “The Final Frontier”, “Insurrection” and “Nemesis”.

ST09 is still the better movie, but STID is a worthy sequel in spite of some weak areas.

119. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

The X Men idea is cool, but I really think that the Shatner scene was the way to end it all.

120. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@ 118. Red Dead Ryan – November 12, 2013

“ST09 is still the better movie”

Yep, I watched that movie so many times & never get bored once. I hope the next one will be as fresh & exciting as ST09

121. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

Come on guys, we’ve seen all the 20th, 25th, 30th and 40th anniversary stuff. We had two “goodbye” movies to original cast members, plus all the NG guest appearances. Plus I’ve seen like perhaps 20 self-congratulatory retrospectives/documentaries now. Do we really need more of those as well. More hubris for us all as fans to prove to ourselves and our families how great our hobby/interest still is.

For my part, ENOUGH! I just want a great movie for the 50th. Like what James Bond did for that franchise. Don’t give any of the geriatrics some lame role in the film. Have one public event (how about the LA premiere) where you invite all the old actors, and do a max of one additional retrospective that would be on Discovery channel or similar — that would completely satisfy me.

And Shatner is very old, very fat, and made an ass out of himself trying to play Kirk on the Academy Awards last year. I will be fine for the rest of my life if I never see him play Kirk again — the last time he played a good Kirk was way back in ST IV. He’s mailed it in ever since, and now he no longer even looks what I think an older “real” Captain Kirk would look like in his latter years say 300 years from now.

122. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

Any movie industry budgeteers out there? What would it cost to shoot the Shatner scene and give every backer of the project a free copy of ST.09 with the alternate ending?

123. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@121. MJ

You are a TOS fan, you consider it the only REAL TREK, yet you never liked the man who played the original Kirk, WHY ?

I’m just curious :)

124. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

“Both Shatner & Nimoy are 83 years old, yet that didn’t stop Abrams from having Nimoy in the new movies TWICE.”

1. Nimoy still looks like an objective person would expect and older Spock in the mid-24th century to look like — he can still play a credible Spock. Shatner no longer bears much resemblance top what an objective person would expect and older Kirk to look like in the early 24th century — he can’t play Kirk credibly anymore.

2. ST-2009 was the movie to hand-off TOS characters to the new characters. Spock/Nimoy I personally believe was chosen by JJ for my reasons mentioned above in 1.

3. STID showed that they went to the well one too many times in having an TOS character again show up. Most of us did not think that scene was necessary, and Nimoy’s performance was not so great as compared to this Trek 2009 performance.

125. LogicalLeopard - November 12, 2013

115 and 117

I agree. No one except for (some) hardcore fans are going to want to see multiple TOS cast members in a movie with the new cast. There’s a big difference from seeing Halle Berry in leather, who is over 40 but looks better than ever, and a bald Walter Koenig.

At the end of the day, one has to accept this new Trek series of movies for what it is, and let it stand on it’s own. It would be different if, say, there had never been a crossover between Trek casts, but there’s a “handover” tradition dating back to TNG’s premiere, and EVERY television show has had crossovers, even the improbable ENT/TNG crossover, not only with Cochrane in the beginning, but with Riker and Troi at the end. Plus, this has already been said and done with Generations. And when you consider that a TOS cast member has been in every AbramsTrek production, it’s just overkill.

A good story will be enough to pay homage to Trek’s 50th Anniversary on behalf of the new Trek movie series. If anyone wants anything else, I would petition for a convoluted TV movie involving all 5 casts….maybe Chekov can reminisce about the time Russians sent the first Warp 5 ship into space, with Keptin Archernov while taking a vacation on Bajor, call up Sisko’s time displaced body by accidentally knocking over the the Orb of Time and creating an anchor for Sisko like in “The Visitor” that accidentally pulls in Picard, Archer, and Janeaway because…..I dunno.

126. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

Hey, I don’t like Mel Gibson, but I love pretty much all Mel Gibson movies. It’s about being able to separate actors from their fictions roles?

My likeness of Shat started going south in about STV, and was cemented with him standing by and doing nothing like a “vichy frenchman” would when Berman killed off Kirk in a non-canon-acceptable way in Generations. Then, just when I was warming up to him again, the horridly embarrassing Academy Awards thing with a 300 pound looking pompous, sarcastic version of Captain Kirk.

I love TOS Shat. That guy doesn’t exist anymore in my book though.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
124. Ahmed – November 12, 2013
@121. MJ

You are a TOS fan, you consider it the only REAL TREK, yet you never liked the man who played the original Kirk, WHY ?

I’m just curious :)

127. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

@125

“At the end of the day, one has to accept this new Trek series of movies for what it is, and let it stand on it’s own. It would be different if, say, there had never been a crossover between Trek casts, but there’s a “handover” tradition dating back to TNG’s premiere, and EVERY television show has had crossovers, even the improbable ENT/TNG crossover, not only with Cochrane in the beginning, but with Riker and Troi at the end. Plus, this has already been said and done with Generations. And when you consider that a TOS cast member has been in every AbramsTrek production, it’s just overkill.”

E X A C T L Y .! ! !

128. Danpaine - November 12, 2013

As a big Shatner fan, even I don’t see any need to shoehorn his long-dead Prime Kirk into the next film, the Anniversary film, which I agree, needs to hit it out of the park. His death was fubar’ed in Generations, and there’s no credible way (or need) to try to fix it. Shatner should have hung it up in Trek 6. It was a good, fitting last scene.

What we need now is a really incredible script where NuKirk gets to redeem himself and become the leader he should be, (more) seasoned, confident and able to properly beat someone up like only Kirk can.

129. Basement Blogger - November 12, 2013

The Force is with Disney.

First, they steal our director, J.J. Abrams. Then they make him film in London. Whereas, Abrams was able to force Paramount to make Star Trek in California. What next? Abrams shoots Star Wars VII in 3D video and without lens flares? Okay, maybe not . Link.

Boy, I feel like a second class science fiction citizen here. Lower budget. There will probably be a cheap director for the fiftieth anniversary. If Paramount is disappointed with the domestic box office, they have themselves to blame. No trailers until six months before the release. No presence at Comic Con. Contrast that with the next Avengers movie. We already know who the antagonist is going to be. more than a year out.

Looking at the positives of this. Some state with a down economy will get Star Trek. How about my town, Cincinnati? They shot The Ides of March here. And I can say we treat our entertainment franchises well, look at he sweetheart deal for the Bengals. Plus we have strange life forms. See Jerry Springer.

How about some stunt location shooting? How abut Iowa in honor of Captain Kirk’s birthplace? They could also leech off some of the early publicity of the presidential primary as the candidates tell Iowans how much they love them thus saving Paramount the effort of trying to sell a movie one year ahead of time. :=)

SW to be shot on film.
-http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-episode-7-to-be-shot-on-film-not-digital/

130. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

#125. LogicalLeopard

Yes! Perfectly said!!!!!

131. TUP - November 12, 2013

@114 YES, exactly. You get it.

@115 Im not comparing the two franchises, but the reality is, X-Men shows it *can* be done and be serious and dramatic (assuming the movie is a success).

I dont think these producers see it though. To them, using Picard and Shatner is “going backwards”. But to them using BC as Khan was “going forward”.

When I say “undo the Abrams-verse” I say it with the idea that the third movie might be the last for this creative team. If that isnt so, then maybe the plan needs rejigging. But either way, there is nothing wrong with an epic adventure that spans the generations.

132. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

“No trailers until six months before the release. No presence at Comic Con.”

I don’t think so. That was all JJ’s secrecy “Mr. Wizard” bullcrap. I’ll bet we will see a comicon presence at least in the comicon preceding the movie, and a much better domestics marketing campaign this time — dollars talk, and I am sure the bean counters learned their less from taking domestic ticks fore granted last time.

133. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

And for everybody whining about the budget cutting, you can still be it’s going to be around a $150M movie.

134. TUP - November 12, 2013

@ 124 ludicrous.

You’re saying objective fans wouldn’t believe that an 85 year William Shatner would look like he does? I think there are a lot of Trek fans that are pretty hard on Shatner. He looks great. How active, talented, quick-witted and fit will most of us look at that age?

There have been many films that have shown us the technology exists to de-age, thin down etc actors. Shatner did that Dish TV (or whatever it was) TV commercial not too long ago where he, aside from the cheap CGI cutting his head onto the scene, didnt look out of place.

Hell, Hostages used the technology to de-age two of its characters this past week and it looked damn good. And thats a TV budget.

I think part of the reason why 09 did as well was because of Nimoy. And having Shatner would be INSTANT publicity.

Does a bald chekov have to be in it? No.

And I always come back to this: One day there will be a brilliant idea to use Shatner in Star Trek again but he will be dead. Do it now, while theres still time.

135. bmar - November 12, 2013

You know, I think Star Trek may be dying. And you know what? I think that’s ok. My prediction is that they’ll make this next movie, it will do ok, but not enough to justify any more.

I think Trek has lived its life. And this is coming from a guy who loves it. But I’m ok to let it go. It’s kind of like a dog that you know and love, and you’ve had for half your life – but he’s just not doing well, and you know when it’s time…it’s just time. So you put him down and you live on with the happy memories you had of him.

Trek has had an incredible run. Nearly 50 years. Incarnation after incarnation, parades of actors, stories, merchandise, games, etc. A lot of it has been great. A good deal of it has been mediocre, and a fair portion has just been crappy. It has been, and remains culturally significant in ways that have gone far beyond anyone’s (including Gene R) wildest dreams.

But much as it pains me to say it, I think it’s played out. We’ve seen just about every possible story – and don’t bother saying that the story possibilities are endless, because they’re not – especially not if you’re trying to pull in a mass audience. And without a mass audience, there’s just not the financial model to keep it going. At some point, even if you’re not serving leftovers of Khan, you start to cannibalize yourself in search of new stories.

Maybe it could live again as a TV model, but not on TV, but rather on Netflix or Amazon as an original production. But I think that those media outlets are placing their bets elsewhere.

So I say, it’s ok to let Trek go. We’ve got hundreds of hours of Trek that we can revel in, relive, have fun with, debate. People can still role play and cos play and get together for conventions and idolize the actors (for as long as they are with us, at any rate.) But I think its time has come. It doesn’t have the relevancy it once did, and I don’t think that people are “in to” the basic premise – as it just feels dated, no matter how many cool effects you layer on top of it.

I’m sure many will disagree. But I look forward to this next Trek movie as a last hurrah, with high hopes, low expectations and lots of great memories.

136. TUP - November 12, 2013

@132 Abrams really needs to knock off the “secrecy” garbage. There’s keeping some surprises as best you can and then there is lying and obsessiveness. Keeping Khan a secret was the second worst idea they had for STID (using Khan in the way they did was the first). They cut their own marketing balls off and set up a surprise that no one wanted or reacted well to.

I cringed when I heard he wanted the same for Star Wars. If I dont want to be spoiled, I can decline to read spoilers. But knowing “Khan” was returning would have created excitment. Knowing Ford, Fisher and Hamill are returning is not ruining anything, it’s generating intense excitment. Knowing “Darth Vader” returns is the same. It’s exciting.

The silver lining with Star Wars is Kasdan returning to reach across the writers desk and slap Abrams upside the head.

137. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

@135

LOL, dude,

You keep smoking the medicinal marijuana, and keep sharing your “visions” with us. :-)) ;-)

PS:

1. ST09 International Box Office $119

2. STID International Box Office $238M

So, Mr. Bmar Nostradamus, the international fan base is unquestionably growing.

138. bmar - November 12, 2013

Oh, and I’m sure people will say “Well, what about other franchises like Bond or Star Wars? Aren’t they just like Star Trek?”

No.

Bond is formulaic – nearly every movie fits the exact same story pattern, and as long as it’s filled with amazing stunts, fights and cool spy stuff, people will come and watch. You can’t fill Star Trek with that kind of stuff and still have Star Trek.

as for Star Wars – well, the jury is still out on that, right? I guess we’ll see. But the difference is that there have been six Star Wars movies. A cumulative 12 hours, more or less – as opposed to literally hundreds of hours of Star Trek. Right now Star Wars lives in two audiences – the old farts like me that love and remember the original trilogy and the young ones (like my sons) who grew up on the prequels and think that (in spite of really bad story telling) the gee-whiz of the effects carried them through. It will be up to JJ and crew to try and unite these two audiences with the next few movies. Even then – even if those work – you’re still only talking about 18 hours of movies, total. Hard to run a franchise into the ground on 18 hours… but we’ll see.

139. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

“How active, talented, quick-witted and fit will most of us look at that age?”

It’s not about “us.” Its about the Captain Kirk we know from the 23rd century, a disciplined man, who also has complete access to medical and health technology 300 years advance from ours as he enters his latter years.

That’s the Captain Kirk I am talking about. I am not talking about an aged actor living in today’s world.

Nimoy still could pull this off, at least in Trek 2009, but barely in STID.

140. bmar - November 12, 2013

Hey MJ – as I said, just my thoughts and observations. I think that, despite the box office, no one can deny that Paramount was less happy than they had hoped with how the movie did, and most people and reviewers were less happy with STID than ST09.

I think if you sampled most people off of this web site they would probably be mildly interested in Trek, if they are aware of it, with the interest in seeing it simply because it will be a “big movie” – not out of a great desire to see STAR TREK. Yes, the fan base is passionate and will gladly give their dollars (and I count myself among them) but it’s just not a big enough ROI for Paramount to continue to make big budget movies.

It just kind of feels tired, and played out.

Do I want Star Trek to sail off into history, no. Would I be ok if it did, yes.

141. crazydaystrom - November 12, 2013

121. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!!
I just want a great movie for the 50th. Like what James Bond did for that franchise.

That IS what I’d love to see as well. While I do think you’re being a bit unkind to the ‘originals’ with your wordage and tone, MJ, I agree they shouldn’t be brought in for ‘old time sake’ (no pun intended, I swear!). The Bond Skyfall film is a great example of a solid honoring of a franchise’s 50th. No former Bonds making appearances. Though Connery was offered a role but turned it down, wisely I believe. His appearance in the film would’ve been a distraction from the story.

Nimoy did not add to STID at all. His cameo seemed cheap and gratuitous, which was not the case with ST09. And keep in mind Nimoy’s my favorite Trek actor (threatening to be usurped by Pine).

Mixing the old and the new casts for the 50th would smack too much of ‘gimmick’, which is what it would be, and to get past that would require a damned good story to not end up being a big muddled mess. Xmen DOFP is based on a greatly loved Xmen comic story and is a good one. Singer’s not going to be able to stick incredibly close to the original story but he has it as a template and hopefully he’ll be able to capture the essence of the story. If he does…watch out!

142. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

Rumor is that R2D2 FINALLY gets to speak ENGLISH in the new movies.

Bad news is he learned it from Jar Jar Binks.

My source also me Cumberbatch is going to make a GREAT Lando Calrissian.

143. Chris - November 12, 2013

You pay what you vote for.
And you continually vote for politicians that make filming in California more expensive.
The politicians tax the bejesus out of everyone, and claim the state is broke..
The politicians claim the state is broke, but fund boondoggles like high speed rail.
Hollywood supports these clowns- clowns that make Hollywood go out of state for cheaper filming.

Vote better, people.

144. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@ 142. dmduncan – November 12, 2013

“Rumor is that R2D2 FINALLY gets to speak ENGLISH in the new movies.

Bad news is he learned it from Jar Jar Binks.”

LOL

145. Keachick - November 12, 2013

Gosh, after reading these comments, it is hard to believe that the franchise killers are not on this site.

This Kirk was not a Captain Dunce or a jerk or anything else. The only really foolish thing he did was at the beginning of the movie and that was not to make a full report of what happened at Nibiru, why he made the decisions and to stand by them. He got chewed out and demoted.

As for everything else that followed, well, folks, hindsight is just such a wonderful and that is how you are judging this character’s actions. It is just such whoop-dee-doo and pathetic.

Also, I can’t get past the small-minded, almost arrogant, attitudes that some people have about what might be possible in the future as regards the potentially curative factors that could be found in blood products, both human and alien and what medical research may discover in the future. After all, less than 100 years ago, if people then could see what is possible now, they would have called it “magic” as well. Modern medicine is apparently able to restore life to people who would have been declared dead 100 years ago. As well, even as “magical” as modern medicine may seem to our ancestors 100 years ago, it still can’t cure everything or everybody…

Transwarp beaming is more of a dangerous fad than anything else and what’s more the faster aeroplane has not replaced the motor car or indeed, even the humble horse, in some places. It just provides yet another option, and not one of the safer ones at that either…what is so hard to understand?

Honestly, I really do despair sometimes…:(

146. Colin - November 12, 2013

We have three franchises from the 60s: Doctor Who, James Bond, and Star Trek. The first two had great fanfare when it came time to celebrate their fiftieth year. James Bond celebrated its anniversary with an appearance at the Olympics and with the most successful film in its franchise. Doctor Who is having a docudrama about the show’s inception, several planned events including Daleks at Buckingham Palace, and an episode that looks very promising and honors the past fifty years. What will Paramount or CBS do to celebrate Star Trek?

Thinking about Doctor Who, I have read that BBC invites British children to submit drawings for creatures, which one child won and that creature appeared in an episode, and that children submitted their names for a competition for the event held at Buckingham Palace. This is how a long lasting franchise survives – it gets the children involved.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/doctor-who/10441265/Daleks-to-invade-Buckingham-Palace.html

If Star Trek dies, as mbar thinks is possible, it’s because the franchise failed to gain the attention of the younger generations.

147. TUP - November 12, 2013

Bond is very different from Trek because it doesnt have 50 years of conon to “respect” and arguably has one character that really needs to be “respected” and even then, different actors brought different things to their portrayal.

Bond is also a franchise where it’s expected to have a new actor in the role every few years. Fans dont follow Bond to watch him age, deal with that aging and ride off into the sunset while passing the torch to a new generation of superspy. They tune in to see the *same* character at basically the same age. It’s everything around Bond that changes, not him.

Star Trek is us, in the future. It’s a reasonable extrapolation of where current humankind might evolve to. All (or most) of it’s science is grounded in some sort of *reasonable reality”.

And thats why Enterprise was so disappointing. It was supposed to bridge the gap between us and Star Trek (ie. TOS).

The entire first season should have taken place on Earth (or Vulcan). But I digress….

148. Colin - November 12, 2013

Auto correction is a pain. I meant bmar.

149. bmar - November 12, 2013

No problem, oclin.

;)

150. Check the Circuit - November 12, 2013

@135 bmar

You’re looking at Star Trek from just the long-time fan POV. We’re a much smaller percentage of the box office take these days. Older fans (of which I am one) seem to forget….wait for it….the next generation. Thanks to the new movies, the franchise is being discovered by a whole new group of younger fans, as well as by more main-stream movie goers. They don’t know the difference between a tribble and a Tellarite. And could care less. They haven’t been watching Trek for 40 or more years….so every mission is fresh and exciting from their POV.

Case in point, I work with a woman who is maybe pushing 30. She discovered ST09 on HBO and loved it. It was her first exposure to Star Trek in a meaningful way. So to cultivate a fledgling Trekkie’s interest, I let her borrow my copy of STID. She and her husband thought it was better than the “first one.” (Kind of funny, right? She didn’t know about the other 10.) Emboldened, I suggested she should watch some of the original source material. I lent her TWOK. Why not start her off with the best?

(Beat.)

It took them three attempts to get through it. They kept falling asleep.

Heavy sigh.

The point is, Star Trek needs to speak to the contemporary (younger) audience. If it doesn’t….it dies just as soon as you and I do, my friend.

Evolution or extinction. Which would you pick?

151. Colin - November 12, 2013

There are franchises older than Star Trek, Doctor Who, and James Bond. I am thinking here about the comic book franchises. Superman and Batman go back to the thirities.

Frankly, I do not buy the argument that if a franchise has to respect the canon that somehow that respect weighs down a film and that for a modern audience to get the film that the canon has to be watered down. We have the Marvel Universe franchise which respects the canon, yet is wildly successful.

And, there are canonical facts, which have to be respected, about Bond. Facts which can’t be altered. He is a British citizen who lost his parents at an young age. He is an experienced military soldier who joined MI6.

152. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

145. Keachick – November 12, 2013

This Kirk was not a Captain Dunce or a jerk or anything else. The only really foolish thing he did was at the beginning of the movie and that was not to make a full report of what happened at Nibiru, why he made the decisions and to stand by them. He got chewed out and demoted.

***

Oh no you don’t.

1. He STEALS a sacred object, causing the aliens to chase him, 2. he SHOOTS the creature McCoy finds to get them out of there by a much safer route, thereby 3. LEADING the aliens to a front row seat of the Enterprise rising from the sea.

Just about everything he does in the first five minutes is idiotic, including asking what Spock would do and being utterly dismissive of the prime directive as no big deal when Spock points out that he just violated it.

153. bmar - November 12, 2013

150 – Check The Circuit

I’m all in favor of evolution, if it produces something viable. And I love that your friend just discovered Trek – although I point out that discovering it on HBO is probably Paramount’s worst nightmare – they want her to discover it in the theater.

But I guess the thing is this – Star Trek has evolved, multiple times. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not so successfully. I just don’t know where it can evolve to now.

I work in the media industry, I’ve worked with some of the Trek actors on Trek related projects. I even went in and pitched story ideas when DS9 and Voyager were still in production. Beyond that – I’m a writer, a producer – and I’m just hard pressed to figure out a place that ST could go that hasn’t already been gone to already. Maybe that’s a narrowness of vision, but I think it’s a more a reflection of the length and depth of the countless stories that ST has already explored.

So, if it can’t effectively evolve into something new, exciting and different – I’d rather see it go extinct than putter on…

154. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

153. bmar – November 12, 2013

I think the problem is that the ones who hold the reigns can’t seem to believe in something that they don’t have the vision for. If you can’t see it then you need to trust someone who does.

Maybe it will succeed, maybe it will fail, but you can’t trust the standard Star Trek formula to always pull the franchise up out of the graveyard.

I’ve had THREE innovative ideas for Star Trek on TV that would take it in a different direction, better than any of the failed pitches we’ve read about on this site, including that Starfleet Academy thing, Stracszynski’s idea, and Bryan Singer’s idea.

At the very least, each one would have been a fresh take on an old franchise, so I know it’s possible.

When you look at what’s been done before and don’t see anything new to do in the future, it’s because you are not thinking new thoughts.

155. Jim, London - November 12, 2013

Seek out new life and new civilisations.

That is the plot for the new movie. Simples.

156. Gary 8.5 - November 12, 2013

153.
Trek isnt through evolving just yet.
All will be well.

157. Gary 8.5 - November 12, 2013

155.
I appreaciate the classic sentiment,But it doesnt always work out that way .
The crew of The Enterprise were not seeking out The Horta.
That story evolved from something of a mystery.
I hope we get something like that .

158. TonyD - November 12, 2013

Sounds to me like Paramount’s love affair with JJ is coming to an end.

They could always film in Boston, MA; we’re giving all kinds of filmmaking incentives and lots of our campuses have that futuristic look to them.

159. snow - November 12, 2013

Maybe Star Trek should be sold to disney…

160. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

Move away then, Cyrus….whoops, correction, I mean “Chris”. ;-)

The less of you malcontent whiners here, the better. And the state being broke deal was three years ago; that’s been fixed now, and California has the second fasted job growth in the U.S. now.

Many movies have always been filmed away from California — that a facade, straw-man argument.

Either move away, or do your homework next time, please.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
143. Chris – November 12, 2013
You pay what you vote for.
And you continually vote for politicians that make filming in California more expensive.
The politicians tax the bejesus out of everyone, and claim the state is broke..
The politicians claim the state is broke, but fund boondoggles like high speed rail.
Hollywood supports these clowns- clowns that make Hollywood go out of state for cheaper filming.

Vote better, people.

161. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

bmar,

Like Khan, you exhibit “two dimensional thinking.”

When you say Star Trek is tanking, obviously you are refering to the domestic U.S. view of Star Trek. Sure, I could see where you are coming from there — perhaps Trek has plateued here and their is not enough interest for furhter growth.

But, with “three dimensional thinking,” Captain Kirk would tell you that the U.S. in now only 1/3 of the market for tent-pole movies. And, with that, we look at STID, and we saw a FRACKING DOUBLING OF THE INTERNATIONAL BOX OFFICE. This speaks for itself — a quantitative measure of non-U.S. interest in the franchise.

So, worldwide, Trek is expanding and gaining more interest, even if it has possibly plateaued in the U.S. This is supported by real data — not just my personal opinion.

162. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

It’s not a huge jump to see how Star Trek 2016 gets to $600M folks. If they can make a movie more in line with ST-2009, and if they don’t make the same marketing mistakes and release date mistakes that they made last time, then I could easily see the next movie making say $280M domestic, and $320M international. And if they get the budget in at a slightly more reasonable $150M, then this becomes a HUGE moneymaker.

163. K-7 - November 12, 2013

Is there any way that I could vote Chris and Cyrus off this web site?

164. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

Now there would be an election with a high turnout! LOL

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
162. K-7 – November 12, 2013
Is there any way that I could vote Chris and Cyrus off this web site?

165. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

“The silver lining with Star Wars is Kasdan returning to reach across the writers desk and slap Abrams upside the head.”

TUP, you raise a really good point here. Were Bob, Alex and others largely “yes men” to JJ the past few years? Quite possibly, I think so.

I think we will lose some of this now, both with JJ’d reduced role, and with Bob and Alex being at a place in their careers where they will more confidently take charge. So, no more of this stuff where JJ says “give the Enterprise a hot-rod look” with Bob and Alex just letting it slide by.

166. Phil - November 12, 2013

@159. A little fact checking is in order – runaway production in CA continues to be a huge problem for CA, and Sacramento and LA don’t really seem all that interested in fixing it. TV production is slipping slightly, but features shot in CA are a fraction of what they used to be.

167. bmar - November 12, 2013

Hey MJ – Why must you be condescending?

Bottom line – while the worldwide audience is large, most major movie studios in the US will not stand behind a product if it doesn’t perform domestically, no matter how it does internationally.

168. Phil - November 12, 2013

@145. Rose, the only STID really works is at a very superficial level, and to defend a series of events as singular actions demands one ignore context. Sorry, but Kirk lost Enterprise not because he falsified a report (usually a crime in a uniformed service) but apparently he wasn’t supposed to be on that planet to begin with. In bigger context it was believable that this Kirk would do this because he’s already been portrayed as immature and impulsive. It was never a question about would Kirk get his crew killed, but when. Recklessness gets people killed.

Also, there is nothing small minded about understanding physics and biology when it comes to questioning the magic blood. One hundred years ago it took fifty years for the sum total of human knowledge to double, today, it doubles every eighteen months or so. Physics teaches that it’s laws are universal, so as life developed here, it will develop in a similar fashion elsewhere. Gravity and light speed are constants, there isn’t anything special about being on the other side of the universe that will enable blood to have magical properties that it doesn’t have here. We have mapped the human genome, while there are still lessons to be learned about it’s applications, the likelihood of there being any hidden surprises floating around in the veins of man is remote.

So, set aside the condescension, and enjoy the story for what it is, a work of fiction. Yeah, I wish the writers had taken more care of continuity, character development (particularly Kirk, who still comes across as a juvenile delinquent) and some of the science, but as it’s been pointed out, this isn’t your daddies Trek.

169. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

@165

This same shit was in the LA Times in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, 00’s. It’
s all a smokescreen by deep pockets to try to get tax incentives that CA will never give them.

Heck, they are filming Nolan’s big Interseller movie here right fracking now. the two biggest movies in the next five years, Avatar II and III will be filmed here in SoCal as well. Case closed.

170. Jonboc - November 12, 2013

#76. “Take a deep breath. This isn’t about cutting the budget. It’s about getting the same for less. JJ paid a premium to shoot in LA. Going elsewhere is pretty smart actually.

You won’t notice a difference on the screen.”

Wow, an island of reason and common business sense in a sea of speculative madness, endlessly churned by haters of nu-trek that are desperate for it to fail. if there is any thing to fault, it wouldn’t the the fantastic box office numbers, nor is there anything amiss in the creative end. The problem that continues to stifle Trek’s ability to expand beyond it’s ALREADY SUCCESSFUL theatrical run is the studio’ s obvious and ridiculous inability to nurture the franchise between features. The franchise can grow and be even MORE successful, but there has to be a change to a different mindset on the business end…the creative end is delivering the goods.

171. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

“Bottom line – while the worldwide audience is large, most major movie studios in the US will not stand behind a product if it doesn’t perform domestically, no matter how it does internationally.”

Then why did another Wolverine movie just get green-lighted when it tanked domestically and made good money overseas? And why is a Pacific Rim sequel pretty much assured now for the same reason? Another Pirates of the Caribbean — same deal.

I’m using factoids here, not my personal opinion.

Sorry if I was condescending — my bad.

172. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

@170

“The problem that continues to stifle Trek’s ability to expand beyond it’s ALREADY SUCCESSFUL theatrical run is the studio’ s obvious and ridiculous inability to nurture the franchise between features. The franchise can grow and be even MORE successful, but there has to be a change to a different mindset on the business end…the creative end is delivering the goods.”

You nailed it, Jonboc.

173. Basement Blogger - November 12, 2013

@ 140

bmar says,

” most people and reviewers were less happy with STID than ST09.”

Nope. First, let me concede that STID had less positive reviews than ST09. But “most” reviewers??? Rotten Tomatoes rates it at 87 percent “fresh.” It did better with critics than Iron Man 3 according to Rotten Tomatoes. (79 percent) And by the way unlike Iron Man 3”s dismantling of The Mandarin, STID respected the fans. And your other whopper. “Most people” were less happy. Really? Here;s a fact bmar. Star Trek Into Darkness was the highest grossing Star Trek film in the franchise. Link.

This fan liked STID more than the 2009 effort. Why? Because this time they made Star Trek. STID had ideas, and themes. Prime Directive. War on terror, etc. Roddenberry would have been proud.

Link. Star Trek Into Darkness is the highest grossing film of the Star Trek franchise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Into_Darkness

bmar says,

“Do I want Star Trek to sail off into history, no. Would I be ok if it did, yes.”

Huh??? I’m not saying you should commit suicide if Star Trek ends. But what you wrote is like saying about your hypothetical dog, Fluffy, “Do I want to see Fluffy live a long life. Yes. But if he got hit by a truck, I would be ok with it.”

174. Nick - November 12, 2013

153 – bmar

Agree with you. It is hard to see the way forward which is true to Star Trek, original and generates the kind of box office that Paramount seems to want.

……

In my view the problem with Star Trek as it stands today is that the studio & producers have chosen to press all the marketing buttons & have made significant concessions with the characters and philosophy.

Of course this is because the studios are driven to maximise their profitability. They want the largest possible market to consume their product as many times as possible.

The thing is there is a real sameness to the so-called tier 1 franchises that places them at the top of a money pile but certainly not in terms of quality. Perhaps they are entertaining (with the usual dose of sensory overload) in the first instance, but really mostly the satisfaction quickly dissipates, much like a meal of fast food.

Must add that the best of the top tier franchises flourish because the audience love their characters fundamentally.

I think I have visited this site since it began, certainly well before the first movie in 2009. I have absorbed many opinions & ideas, yet I am still unsure about what could be done next.

The thing is that Star Trek has risen to some great highs in terms of quality, yet also been very average … and sometimes pretty bad. We’ll all disagree on when this happened, but most likely agree that it did happen.

I sometimes wonder if the (tier 1) mass-audience doesn’t really care for ‘pure’ Star Trek anymore?

Anyway, I have constructive ideas & I would love to hear yours as well. That would be an excellent forum topic. If we even get 2 or 3 bits of pure inspiration then at least we’re showing some leadership!

175. Nick - November 12, 2013

oh, & I see all these ideas are coming out here obviously.

also, I am talking above about that ‘tier 1′ franchise thing. Perhaps what I mean is that close to half-a-billion isn’t anything to sneeze at Paramount.

And anyway, I like to think of Star Trek as class 1 at its best (which isn’t measured in currency)

176. VOODOO - November 12, 2013

Budget does not equal quality…in my humble opinion a smaller budget (mind u they will still have a huge budget) forces more creativity.

177. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

“Agree with you. It is hard to see the way forward which is true to Star Trek, original and generates the kind of box office that Paramount seems to want.”

Great, another person who wants to bury their hand in the sand and completely in gore the huge international expansion of the franchise.

Seriously, do I need to feed information and real data to some of you with a spoon before you will change your hopelessly subjective and just plain WRONG mindsets on this? Come on people, look at the data and use your brains…sheesh!!!

178. K-7 - November 12, 2013

MJ,

Unfortunately, a lot of people here are just plain North American-centric. They really don’t care that Star Trek is blowing up bid now across the world.

Look at Nick’s comments — in reading between the lines of what he is saying, it sounds to me like he just wants some more Berman-era stuff for U.S., Canada and UK consumption, rather that Trek event movies like WOK and Trek 2009.

179. K-7 - November 12, 2013

Oh crap,

I just accidentally ran over Fluffy with my truck.

180. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

I find it hilarious that the haters continue to put up their exact same (extremely flawed and highly inaccurate) arguments which have repeatedly been dismissed and debunked by facts posted on this site by me, MJ, BB and a few others here.

I guess the truth hurts for some.

“YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!”

181. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

I do think the domestic market was screwed over by the piss poor North American marketing “campaign”. Next time, with a cohesive, intense strategy in place, I can’t see why the domestic gross can’t be doubled.

Trek is building a bigger international audience, it just needs to reconnect with the North Americans who came out in droves for the first movie but were largely left in the dark ahead of the STID release.

I agree with MJ when I say there is no reason why the next “anniversary edition” Trek movie can’t make at least $600 million world wide.

182. Colin - November 12, 2013

There were articles around the time that ST:ID that stated Paramount focus group this film, and found that the overseas market wanted more action-adventure and less talk. JJ Abrams delivered a film that satisifed this market, while further alienating a small number of fans. I am happy that the franchise is expanding, but I am worried about the cost. I don’t want the Star Trek franchise to lose its core as it pursues a larger audience.

183. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@ 182. Colin – November 12, 2013

“There were articles around the time that ST:ID that stated Paramount focus group this film, and found that the overseas market wanted more action-adventure and less talk. ”

Here is the article concerning the focus group:

“With focus groups, casting, talent barnstorms and carefully timed openings, Paramount has worked hard to make this the first “Star Trek” movie to score big overseas

Ditch Spock’s ears. Lose the wacky costumes. Don’t have characters spend so much time yakking on the bridge of the Enterprise.

That’s the sort of advice Paramount is heeding as it prepares to open its sci-fi epic “Star Trek Into Darkness” on Thursday in the U.K., Australia and five other countries. Determined to make its sci-fi epic sequel a global hit — unlike any of the preceding “Star Trek” movies — the studio has gone to great lengths to make it more appealing to foreign audiences.

“I guess less Trekkie, more action might be the short story,” Paramount’s head of international distribution Anthony Marcoly told TheWrap Tuesday. “But since I arrived here 18 months ago, a primary part of my mission has been to make sure this movie succeeds at the overseas box office the way it will domestically, and our team has done a great deal to make sure that happens.”

http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/star-trek-darkness-heading-where-no-trek-has-gone-foreign-profitablity-89981

Welcome to the NuTrek :)

184. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

160. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 12, 2013

Many movies have always been filmed away from California — that a facade, straw-man argument.

***

Bob Orci made Ender’s Game in Louisiana to save money, money that keeps them within budget putting more things on screen that they want to see, and which in California would have been siphoned off by the state to pay for other things.

So that’s not a “straw man” or “facade.” That’s a hard cash (smart) reason to produce elsewhere, which people have been and are doing.

185. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

@184.

Yes, I agree, DM.

My point is that this is nothing new, DM. The “facade” is that the studios want us to believe this is a problem, so that they can then get tax breaks on movies that would most likely have been shot in California in any case.

186. Check the Circuit - November 12, 2013

@153 bmar

I can’t agree with you about preferring to let Star Trek die than “putter on.” The “modern” take on the franchise seems to evolved into to something meaningful if you simply look at the recent box office and critical acclaim. Star Trek is reaching more people now than ever, domestically and globally.

The end of the Berman days of Enterprise define puttering on to me. (Stale storytelling. Eroding viewership. The ignominy of cancellation.) Yikes! So close to death.

Arguably, Star Trek is more popular now than it ever was. Puttering on? Not in my humble opinion. And frankly, I’ll take global popularity to “cult classic” any day.

187. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

171. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 12, 2013

Now that I agree with. Dollars are dollars at the end of the day and it doesn’t really matter which part of the world they are coming from.

The only criticism I see to a lower domestic yield is that you blew money you should’ve had in the bag.

Given that Star Trek is an American product it does kind of sting to see STID underperform its predecessor here.

188. Basement Blogger - November 12, 2013

@ 167

bmar says,

“Bottom line – while the worldwide audience is large, most major movie studios in the US will not stand behind a product if it doesn’t perform domestically, no matter how it does internationally.”

That’s not correct at all.

Pirates of the Caribbean: At the Worlds End barely took in more than it cost domestically. Three hundred million in cost; three hundred and nine million domestically. However, the foreign box office was so good that a fourth movie was made. Get this. Thanks to foreign box office, there’s a fifth POC in development. Business Insider, “Hollywood is not making films for foreign markets and their taste in movies is awful.” Article by Colin Moreshead; Sept. 18, 2012.

And there’s a better example just recently. Pacific Rim tanked in the states. It grossed a mere one hundred million. However, it grossed three hundred million internationally. Guess what. A screenplay is being developed for a sequel. Link.
http://www.slashfilm.com/guillermo-del-toro-confirms-pacific-rim-2-is-still-alive-and-being-written-now/

In all due respect, bmar. It would help if you had better facts before you write stuff off the top of your head.

189. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

Yea, and I am still irritate to this day, then I went out and spent major dollars to see the STID preview with The Hobbit 3D movie with my two boys (including driving 50 miles to IMAX), and then the studio (in my personal view) completely screws me over by releasing the movie in other parts of the world up to 3 weeks in advance of North America.

Argh, I am getting pissed off again just thinking about this!

190. Keachick - November 12, 2013

Oh Yes, I do, dmduncan…

Kirk did NOT steal anything. He ran away with the scroll to distract the people and then returned it via hanging it from a tree branch. Borrowing would be a more accurate word. Borrowing does not make a thief and a thief Kirk clearly was not. He shot, or more correctly stunned, the creature because it looked like it was going to attack him. He did it in self defence.

As for them being on the planet, oh yes, the “changing of destiny” charge and Kirk “playing God” – well, here is where I have a real “bone to pick” with the critics here of Kirk’s actions and with the writers via Pike and Starfleet.

Pike chided Kirk for playing God, yet he was also doing the very same thing (as was his superiors). Pike et al had no more of an idea of what the “destiny” of the Nibiru world and its people was to be than Kirk or Spock did. The universe is a very big place, yet the Enterprise and crew, along with a particular kind of technology in their possession that could stop a volcanic eruption which could cause massive damage, happened to be orbiting this planet as opposed to being somewhere else. How does anyone know that this might not be the “destiny” of this particular world to be spared the horrific destruction brought about by the full on volcanic eruption? Why even try to develop such technology if one is forbidden to use it to save a people, a world? The truth is – none of them knew…

Can life saving/preserving technologies only be used for planets and people who appear “advanced” enough to afford contact with Starfleet/Federation personnel while others more “primitive” be allowed to perish? I see discrimination and the true playing of God when it comes to who should receive the benefits of advanced technology and who should not. Kirk and crew were not offering these people replicators or warp drive. They were just trying to stop a volcano from taking out their part of the world because they had the means to do so.

I find it difficult to comprehend why a character should get so chewed out over actually saving a people from destruction. Kirk was right when he answered Spock with “So what?” Seeing the Enterprise rise and fly off into the heavens was a momentary sight and in the long term would have negligible, or no effect at all, on the people’s overall development.

I wish people would lose their condescending attitude towards a certain young captain.

As for the criticism leveled against the so-called “magic blood”, I stand by my statement. My own theory is that Khan (and very likely the other 72 people still in cryostasis) had a particular component made compatible and added to their human blood. It is this which allows them to be revived and function after such a long period in cryostasis. Whether it has the same powerful regenerative effect on the others that the individual H/K has, is unclear.

I have not read the comics. Then again, I do not need to either. I mean, it’s just fiction anyway…

191. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

183. Ahmed – November 12, 2013

“Ditch Spock’s ears. Lose the wacky costumes. Don’t have characters spend so much time yakking on the bridge of the Enterprise.”

***

Wow. So my prediction is coming true? Spock may have just died and no one noticed.

When focus groupies counsel you to get rid of Spock’s ears, what they mean is that they don’t see him as an alien and that the ears are just keeping the guy at arm’s length from them, the viewers. They don’t “get” the ears, gentlemen, and they probably aren’t fond of the Beatles hair either. Cool human heroes just DON’T look like that. And what’s with the monotone voice and all that logic stuff? You might as well get rid of all that while you’re clipping Spock’s ears and hairdrying that -do into the sort of coiffure a woman can appreciate in her man. Shall we try a Justin Bieber on Quinto and see how it plays, perhaps? Or maybe grow out his chin hairs into a darker shade of Joe Manganiello?

192. weerd1 - November 12, 2013

A frakking STAR TREK film brings in nearly HALF A BILLION DOLLARS…and that’s meh. What the hell kind of system is Hollywood running?

193. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

Focus groups tend to resort to a hive-like mentality, often eschewing common sense in favor of appeasing studio suits. And if those suits start listening to the focus group morons, then “Star Trek” will be dead.

I’m really hoping that Paramount defers to Bob and Alex and ignore the focus groups.

194. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

190. Keachick – November 12, 2013

Oh no you don’t.

I don’t care what word you want to use. Kirk takes a sacred object causing the aliens to chase him. He commits another blunder by stunning the creature which he misperceives as a threat rather than as McCoy’s ride out. And he leads the aliens to a great spot from which to view the Enterprise lifting up out of the sea making his violation of the Prime Directive completely unavoidable, which has the effect of getting him fired.

Sugarcoat it as you want to, THAT is what he did.

195. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@ 193. Red Dead Ryan – November 12, 2013

“Focus groups tend to resort to a hive-like mentality, often eschewing common sense in favor of appeasing studio suits. And if those suits start listening to the focus group morons, then “Star Trek” will be dead.

I’m really hoping that Paramount defers to Bob and Alex and ignore the focus groups.”

Agreed. They should ignore the focus groups & allow the writers, any writer, the room to bring their vision & not let it defined by what a focus group say.

196. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

193. Red Dead Ryan – November 12, 2013

I don’t give a damn what focus groups actually suggest. What interests me is their apparent failure or refusal to accept Spock as an alien, which is what I warned about many many many times in here, with plenty of time to spare.

197. Ahmed - November 12, 2013

@191. dmduncan

Yeah, unfortunately it looks like Paramount is listening more & more to these focus groups.

We might end up at some time in the near future with a movie that has the name Star Trek but none of the things that we loved about Star Trek, thanks to the dumb focus groups.

198. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

197. Ahmed – November 12, 2013

But let’s say that NOBODY listens to them. My point is that they don’t seem to view or want to view Spock as alien. It seems as if they are TRYING to see him as the hero human dude they can identify with but the ears are spoiling the illusion.

That is something I predicted would happen if they kept making choices that humanized Spock. I said he wouldn’t be alien anymore. He wouldn’t be Spock. He’d be a pointy eared human. That seems to track with what the focus groups are seeing, or want to see, hence their advice of nipping the ears to complete the illusion.

199. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

It’s clear that Paramount has no clue as to how to handle the “Star Trek” movies. They never really had a grasp on how to expand the horizons and scope of our favourite franchise and unfortunately, they are now depending on the “advice” and “wisdom” of “know-it-all” focus groups who are trying to change the core ingredients of “Star Trek” to suit some demographic who otherwise wouldn’t be interested.

200. dmduncan - November 12, 2013

189. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 12, 2013

I feel your pain. I had to drive about 75 miles to catch STID when it opened. And it was in a wind, rain, and lightning storm at night!

201. Red Dead Ryan - November 12, 2013

What I can’t stand is the Spock/Uhura romance. There was simply no need for it.

202. Nick - November 12, 2013

Hey K-7 (178), I’m from none of those countries.

I think the Berman era is had some high points. I enjoyed TNG a bit at the time once they hit their straps. Loved Wrath of Khan, ST3 & ST4 even more, as I grew up on TOS.

……………………………

Rick Berman, I think, was driven to do the best job he could do. I believe there are quite a large amount of dedicated fans who enjoyed that era.

Ideas I think would be interesting might be the creator of Samurai Jack, Genndy Tartakovsky, leading a CG or traditional animation Star Trek series. This could be driven from the current film set-up or something quite new. I also like the idea of Brad Bird, who did a great job with characterisation & a genre-leading effort with The Incredibles, leading the next film. Both these guys are creatively up to the challenge of taking Star Trek forward.

I think these ideas may well be pipe dreams, but feel right to me. I like the idea of moving forward, being inclusive …

As an aside, I also think that a few of you guys on here are full of yourselves and like to either directly or indirectly put people & their opinions down. My advice (if you think I am talking to you) is to discuss and encourage dialogue, show some leadership skills.

203. trekman - November 12, 2013

the moon is tax-free! and has a great landscape, too! AND trek would really go, where – almost – no one has gone before x) ok, i am joking.

what i will never ever understand… they have earned over 462 mio. dollars and the movie did cost 190 mio dollars. so they earned 272 mio. dollars. and they are lamenting about that. “oh, poor 272 mio dollars! only 272 mio. dollars”….! hey guys, 272 mio. dollars is amazing! when I am looking to imdb, there is another gross: $228.756.232! That is pretty much! Even the great movie “Gravity” has “only” a gross of $232.479.037! So I think, it is okay to take care of production costs, but i cannot longer hear the lamentation of “only” $228.756.232 profit!

by the way…. isn´t it absurd, that people die on this planet because the have not enough to eat and our entertainment-industry laments of such a low profit…! is is a strange world…!

204. I object to you. I object to intellect without discipline. I object to power without constructive purpose. - November 12, 2013

Everytime mj starts on his pyschotic Shat dis/bs I think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3jgOJeAYAA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8RQ8OFKzDs

205. Alt-Spock - November 12, 2013

The comments about domestic gross seems to be focusing on the marketing aspect. Here’s another take:

Lots of people saw the first JJ Trek, gave it a chance, and just did not like it.

Throw in the stupid Khan remake plot and you had lots of people like myself that saw the 1st one but didn’t (and won’t) see the 2nd.

206. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 12, 2013

@204. What you call “the marketing aspect” is actually a fully quantifiable objective measure of film popularity. This in contrast to your “lots of people saw the first JJ Trek, gave it a chance, and just did not like it,” comment, which is just a subjective thought that you pulled out of you ask and personally “believe.”

207. snow - November 13, 2013

I, too saw it only once, loved it as a cinema movie, but not as a Star Trek…

208. K-7 - November 13, 2013

It’s amazing how many first time posters we are seeing tonight. And to see they ALL, TO A PERSON, don’t like JJ-Trek. What are the statistical chances of that? An absolutely amazing coincidence, I am sure! ;-)

209. Dave H - November 13, 2013

#207

LOL !!!

210. Cyrus - November 13, 2013

I don’t think I have ever been called a malcontent. LOL

MJ dude, I love California and that’s why I have lived here for more than 30 years. I am not bitching about California but some of its leaders. We do pay too much taxes.

211. Cyrus - November 13, 2013

And I do read newspapers. I am not sure where you came up with budget deficit ending 3 years ago, as it supposedly ended in the 2013-14 fiscal year:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/27/california-budget-idUSL2N0F321B20130627

I do hope this is a turnaround for our state. The job market seems to be much stronger. But some people are skeptical. Forbes magazine calls it a house of cards:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasdelbeccaro/2013/07/08/jerry-brown-stands-atop-californias-collapsing-house-of-cards/

But I am doing my part to help. Paying an arm and a leg in taxes.

212. Aurore - November 13, 2013

“What I can’t stand is the Spock/Uhura romance…”
______

I LOVED the romance in the “new ” Star Trek I did watch…back in 2009 !!!

“…There was simply no need for it.”

Don’t worry.

I “predict ” that as a “strong ” woman Uhura will end up rejecting Spock in the next Star Trek…

Who needs to love and to be loved anyway ?! F*ck that !

…Or, she’ll find her true love ; Mr. Scott…who might be the one fan-dancing ( exclusively for her ) this time around…

Anyway, regarding “focus groups “, according to Roberto Orci, they were not used.

He stated as much (more than once by the way), in the past :

1312. boborci – September 7, 2013
no focus groups used. would not be afraid to tell you if we had. we didn’t.

http://trekmovie.com/2013/09/01/star-trek-is-broken-here-are-ideas-on-how-to-fix-it/

213. ObesessiveStarTrekFan - November 13, 2013

Mr. Scott fan-dancing was an image I really didn’t need to have impinging on my consciousness…

214. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - November 13, 2013

@211. Aurore – November 13, 2013

“…Or, she’ll find her true love ; Mr. Scott…who might be the one fan-dancing ( exclusively for her ) this time around…”

I really didn’t need that image…

215. James - November 13, 2013

@194 and @190

Go and watch The Paradise Syndrome – it’s a TOS episode that establishes that Starfleet will try to prevent natural disasters from killing less developed cultures.

So Kirk and Spock are not violating the prime directive at the beginning of the movie. Yes, Kirk steals an artefact to lead the villagers out of danger, in doing so though, he is also indirectly protecting it from destruction. No, it’s not out of character for him to be headstrong and to save a civilisation that will die out without his help – see the TOS episode called Miri for evidence of this.

In TOS, the prime directive is more of a principal than an absolute. Return of the Archons even has the Federation mentoring an entire civilization’s population post-interference.

The list goes on – check out TNG’s homeward, in which Worfs bro takes a civilisation on a religious quest inside a holodeck.

The first part of the movie, I thought was great.

216. Picard's Slappy Patty - November 13, 2013

New writers please.

217. Oscar - November 13, 2013

If you want a great anniversary movie, Orci and his chum must go . They are bad writers. They can not write good and original stories, only action scenes with fireworks…clichés, and plots with a lot of holes, silly humor and bad science…this is nu trek. Spectacle over ideas. True trek is ideas over spectacle…
Orci and his chum have turned ST into GiJoe.
Ok. It,s enough.

218. 47 - November 13, 2013

Reboot of the reboot please.

219. 47 - November 13, 2013

@ 186. Check the Circuit

“Arguably, Star Trek is more popular now than it ever was. And frankly, I’ll take global popularity to “cult classic” any day.”

But what was the price of that popularity? Turning Trek movies into Michael Bay-like flicks which have more in common with Star Wars than with Star Trek. Screw that. I’d rather see Star Trek rest for a while until it’s revived at an appropriate time by the right people than see it go that road. Unfortunately, it did.

However, the positive thing in all that is that a) those films are taking place in a separate universe (in other words, from the POV of the original Trek, what happened there didn’t happen at all), and b) hopefully, with the new director (though the options are still rather limited because BR is still in charge) and an eventual new team, Trek could go back to its science fiction roots.

@215. Oscar

Agreed.

220. Barney - November 13, 2013

Get Steven Spielberg to direct trek 3 please.

221. Oscar - November 13, 2013

Roberto Orci . Filmography ( Abrams movies not included)
As writer
Legend of zorro. 26% in rottentomatoes
The island 40%
Transformers 57%
Transformers 2 20%
Cowboy and aliens 57%
As producer
Now you see me 50%
Eagle eye 26%
Ender 60%
And right now, Orci is the main writer producer for ST 2016.
So, a good anniversary trek movie is a fool dream, if trek has not a new producers and writers , and it has not.

222. LogicalLeopard - November 13, 2013

219. Oscar – November 13, 2013

Those statistics are all fine and well if Roberto Orci was up for producer/writer and he had NEVER written/produced a Star Trek movie, but you can’t judge how well he does on other movies, much less metacritic responses on what he did, you can judge him by the two Star Trek movies he’s DONE.

In my opinion, I liked them both. I’d like to see more of what the same team has to offer. Some may not share that opinion. That’s fine. They don’t have to watch the movies. I’m constantly amazed at how people accuse Abrams & Co of ruining Trek, when they did it in the BEST WAY POSSIBLE, shot off an alternate timeline so that it wouldn’t disturb any of the canon. Blame DS9 for ruining Trek. Blame Voyager. Blame Enterprise – that’s all PRIME CANON, shares the same timeline as TOS. But you can’t blame Abrams & Co for anything, period.

I don’t read a lot of Trek books. They’re not for me. So I don’t buy them. I also don’t complain about them. I don’t go on message boards and talk about how it’s utter nonsense for Riker and Troi to be husband and wife on a ship called the Titan, or moan about the continuing story of DS9. I just don’t buy them or read them. So, why don’t people do the same with the movies? Just don’t watch them. You’ve got 79 TOS episodes, six movies, and more TNG episodes, DS9, Voy, etc, if you like them. There are books of all types, fanfic, you’ve even got the excellent ST Online game, in which *squee* you can go back in time and help Scotty find parts to fix something!!!! You can talk with Bones! Or Worf! You can win the Batleth tournament on Forcas III! There’s SO much out there for people who are opposed to the movie.

Sorry, that whole rant after the first paragraph was NOT directed at you, Oscar, it was just general *L* Got carried away.

223. Oscar - November 13, 2013

220
Oh, yes. I can. Do you know why? Because you have talent o you have not.
You can, and you must, judge a pro for his works.
If this pro is a writer for his books or plots.
Orci plots are packed full of stupid holes.
Por instance, in Star Trek into darkness:from forehead slamming inconsistency of transporter technology (they can not beam anyone up but they can beam people down), to a massive, superspaceship constructed in secret and crewed not for fleeters but for rented thugs and piloted in combat by One Person…
The final showdown has Bones shouting for forces on the ground forces to go back pseudo Khan to the Enterprise alive because his blood is vitally need. There are 72 people with the same type of blood in cryogenic capsules visible behind Bones as he is speaking…etc.holes, holes, holes..
3 writers and 4 years for this swiss cheese

But,, oh, yes, the fireworks are greats.

224. James - November 13, 2013

Regarding Bob Orci, he was a writer and co-creator of Fringe. I rate Fringe as one of the best sci-fi shows, along with BSG.

225. Jim, London - November 13, 2013

@219 – Now you see me got 50% rating from reviewers. Audiences polls gave it an A-. Facts and figures dont show the whole picture.

A glaring omission by a lot of peopleon here is that JJs Star Trek films have been the most successful in the entire franchise. Clearly audiences are liking it (Despite a lot of commentators on here not). I think into darkness suffered by having a staggered release date, why not just release it worldwide on the same date to avoid spoilers etc?? That is probably a key lesson to be learnt for Paramount.

226. Óscar - November 13, 2013

I rate fringe as a pseudo x files meets a pseudo star trek mirror universe, as I rate STID as a pseudo TWOK…
Originality and Orci in the same spot..Uhhhhh.

227. Óscar - November 13, 2013

223
So, if rottentomatoes says STID is a good film, It,s OK ..But if it says Orci is a mediocre producer and a bad writer «does not show the whole Picture»…
I see.
Rottentomatoes is or not a infalible judge?

228. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 201. Red Dead Ryan – November 12, 2013

“What I can’t stand is the Spock/Uhura romance. There was simply no need for it.”

wow, we seem to agree more & more these days :)

Like you, I can’t stand it as well. The writers should forget about this stupid relationship & move on.

229. Óscar - November 13, 2013

223
True, but clearly audiences are liking Transformers and clearly audiences are liking Gravity. Two different kind of movies.
But Abrams Trek is not a Gravity type movie, but Transformers type movie.
His call, no a must be. The easy road.
And in USA STID has lost money
Total production (marketing included) 240 millions.
Earned money in USA 228 millions.

230. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 222. James – November 13, 2013

“Regarding Bob Orci, he was a writer and co-creator of Fringe. I rate Fringe as one of the best sci-fi shows, along with BSG.”

I watched “Fringe” from the beginning to the end. It was an interesting show but way overrated. The writers didn’t have an overall plan for the entire series. The story got way too convoluted & lost its coherent halfway through the series.
John Noble was really the only interesting character in the series.

231. TUP - November 13, 2013

On the subject of Kirk’s actions at the beginning of STID,

I find it difficult to believe that that one volcano threatened the entire planet.

I find it difficult that those, what 20 people, were the sum total of the planet’s population (if they were, that species isnt going to make it anyway)

And the plan Kirk hatched was stupid to begin with and had a low probability of success. Thats not what the master tactician Kirk would do. Maybe it’s what cadet Kirk would do. And thats the point. it was a ham-fisted way of winking at the critics of 09 who HATED how that film ended with Kirk in command.

These writers have egos (as do most successful creative types) but they hate criticism (as Orci has shown). They saw the criticism of Kirk’s promotion and wrote a way out for them to feel smarter than us (“see, you guys got all upset but it was the plan all along”).

I strongly suspect the next film will undo Khan as well just to show us how much smarter they are.

232. Phil - November 13, 2013

@190. Sorry, he stole it. The natives would not have been giving chase to recover their stolen item if they had granted Kirk permission to posses it. If Kirk was their on orders, it could be argued that the item was taken, as a distraction, in the discharge of his orders….but Kirk wasn’t supposed to be there at all. So, yeah, at his court-martial, theft, dereliction of duty, falsification of records, and violation of the Prime Directive would all have been legitimate charges.

This is fiction, and in this universe Kirk is the Teflon Captain, the luckiest guy in the universe. I’m not thrilled that the creative team has decided that this Kirk needs to be a live action version of Zapp Brannigan, but it is what it is.

233. Jim, London - November 13, 2013

@226 if the supervolcano under yellowstone erupted it would potentially release enough gas and particles into the atmosphere that it would threaten our existence on a planet wide scale

234. Tom - November 13, 2013

I know some people felt that Nimoy’s appearance was shoehorned in to STID. I did enjoy it but understand how one could feel that way. However i don’t get using him for the the first two movies and then NOT wanting to use him or Shatner for the 50th anniversary movie. You know like one scene to tug at the heartstrings and what will TRULY be the FINAL time on screen in Star Trek for them. The Shatner scene for 2009 had fit that bill very nicely

235. Colin - November 13, 2013

A supervolcano can disrupt a planet’s climate, as has been previously shown in Earth history.

As for the Nibiru civilization, where was the city supporting that massive temple? Temples like that, as again shown in Earth history, were located near or in urban areas. It’s like someone saw a picture of a Mayan temple and came to the assumption that all such temples were isolated structures in the middle of a vast wilderness. What they didn’t realize was that the temples were part of a urban infrastructure that didn’t survive the ages or was completely covered by jungle.

236. MJB - November 13, 2013

228. Jim, London

I was thinking of that one too. If Yellowstone blows again then it’s all over for life on Earth.

237. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

For me the Khan casting was a starting point. It was SO tone deaf and disconnected a decision that it makes me look at everything else they did on STID more intensely.

In retrospect, I think the reason why it took so long to get a sequel made was because they didn’t have an inspired idea for it.

Yah, you can point to box office numbers, yada yada, but those are sorta off the point when we’re making artistic comparisons.

Now regarding an “exploration” type story, I think Prometheus provides a good example. That was the first movie whose use of 3D I LOVED. The stark beauty of that amazing alien landscape experienced in 3D made me feel for the first time ever that I was seeing an alien world.

And the movie itself had an odd blend of horror and wonder.

That might work for a Star Trek story. The crew discovers an organism on an alien world that puts them all in jeopardy, and what do you know?—McCoy FINALLY has a central role to play!

Yeah, it’s a been-there-done-that sorta plot, but I guess what would be new is seeing a new world, new life forms, and McCoy getting some real work to do.

238. Phil - November 13, 2013

@160. Sorry, but by virtue of the fact that several communities outside of CA now have thriving TV and feature production companies is testament to the fact that the business environment here is poor.

Sorry, but before you get too excited about the ‘balanced’ budget, keep in mind there are tens of billions in debt that is off budget, hundreds of billions in unfunded public sector retirement and medical benefits that are off budget, and that the state is balancing it’s budget by borrowing from revenue sources (remember cap and trade) that aren’t actually producing any revenue yet. We still have the highest taxes in the nation in most categories, are still promising benefits to the public sector we have no hope of ever paying for, and still insist on burying the dwindling private sector under a mountain of red tape. Yeah, CA isn’t a bad place to live, but a generation of one-party rule has created a serious case of denial, in continuing to think that the image of CA in it’s heyday will continue to sustain us in the future. It won’t.

239. Phil - November 13, 2013

Oh, and least we forget, we still have the fourth highest unemployment rate in the country. There was a time when 8.9% would be considered a disaster – now, it’s considered solid growth…in low paying entry level jobs.

240. LizardGirl - November 13, 2013

I was in a furniture warehouse last night looking for…well…furniture. On nearly every new television screen (32′ to 60′) was STID. I came in at the Klingon chase scene. Had to admit, I was watching the TVs more than I was looking at the furniture.

Despite the pros and kans, the movie is easy to watch again and again. And it looks pretty darn good on a 60′ flatscreen. The more you watch it the better it gets, I think. It’s a good adventure movie (if not considered a good sci-fi movie). And I can easily ignore my personal nitpicks.

Good call in decreasing the budget. The budget-to-box office money should hopefully have a pretty good gap between them for the last movie. It’s not that the movie wasn’t sucessful, but considering the amount the put into it, understandable that they were hoping for more domestically.

241. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

227. Phil – November 13, 2013

This is fiction, and in this universe Kirk is the Teflon Captain, the luckiest guy in the universe. I’m not thrilled that the creative team has decided that this Kirk needs to be a live action version of Zapp Brannigan, but it is what it is.

***

Ha! THAT is what he is! I hadn’t made the connection until you posted that.

They turned Kirk into Zapp Brannigan. He’s a parody of his former self.

242. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

233. Phil – November 13, 2013

Well then it’s a good thing you guys aren’t prone to natural disasters. Those are costly to clean up.

243. Gary 8.5 - November 13, 2013

229.
How do we know Shatner and Nimoy wont be in the next film?

244. SkiesSeven - November 13, 2013

@dmduncan

I agree that Spock was mischaracterized, he’s way too emotional in both films. And in a way it’s the same thing with Kirk, as they’ve both been made to be victims. Kirk loses his dad, Spock loses his planet – both shaped by their trauma. But nothing that happened to Kirk in ST09 even compares to what was done to his character in STID. He gets beat up, manipulated, stabbed in the back by his friend, loses his father-figure; Pike, and then he himself dies at the end, right before being magically revived.

245. Phil - November 13, 2013

@226. As others have pointed out, the supervolcano under Yellowstone has the capacity to be an extinction level event, as it is active, and overdue for an eruption. And there is evidence that there is more then one of these on the planet. Also, I think it was Kayla who pointed out a while back that use of the fusion device was problematic at well, if it just corked that volcano, the geologic pressures would just can another eruption elsewhere. If it stopped all geologic activity, that’s nothing short of a long term catastrophe for the entire planet. Either way, it’s bad decision making on Kirks part.

Yeah, it’s unlikely this handful of natives represented the entire population of the planet. Even if they were, just transport them to the other side of the planet while they sleep. The worst that would have happened is they would be a bit disoriented, but at least you gave them a fighting chance without actually violating the Prime Directive.

Yeah, Kirk’s the Teflon Captain in this universe. As long as Spock is by his side to clean up his messes all is good…..

246. VulcanCafe - November 13, 2013

It seems to me a final trailer with the Khan reveal would have made a great deal of sense. ‘My name is Khannnnnn’ ‘I think we’re helping him’ etc etc and driven a large amount of wider audience recognition.

247. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

239. SkiesSeven – November 13, 2013

And then he gets his ship back for no good reason. He was fired, gets rehired by the guy who intends to get him killed, and then inherits the captain’s chair after Pike and Marcus are dead?

How does that resolve the criticism they said they were responding to when fans criticized Kirk’s too fast promotion in ST.09?

In a way they sort of repeated the mistake because Kirk doesn’t really earn anything. I came away from STID looking at Kirk as a wreck, but somehow he’s back in charge by the end.

Imagine if we were watching a real scenario. Some will say oh Kirk saved the ship. Yeah, and did you see the damage the Vengeance did crashing into San Francisco??? Where Kirk’s decision led that ship to be?

And with all that damage and destruction, how is it that Khan manages to find crowds of people calmly going about their business while he’s making his escape? As if nobody took notice of what had just happened down the street?

248. SkiesSeven - November 13, 2013

@dmduncan

I see STID as being one of those “in a mirror, darkly” episodes. A Universe where Kirk, Spock, et al are constantly on edge, constantly at risk of death or trauma, etc.

249. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

Let me correct myself. You can make a case that in ST.09 Kirk DOES earn the promotion by what he does. So that instead of addressing the criticism that fans had, STID compounds the problem fans had complained about by having Kirk lose the ship and NOT doing anything spectacular to get it back.

250. Phil - November 13, 2013

@244. Actually, you can’t – Kirks sole virtue in ST 09 was that he was in the right place, at the right time. He’s a stowaway on Enterprise, and Pike names him First Officer…as opposed to throwing him in the brig or confining him to quarters. When presented with an opportunity to argue for intercepting Nero, when he loses that argument his response was to…try and overpower security, and grab a Phaser? Was he really thinking about taking the ship by force? When you think about it, Spock does most of the heavy lifting in Trek09. and Kirk gets to be Captain, by virtue of the fact that he seems to be drinking buddies with Pike. All we see in STID is a continuation of the ‘shoot first, ask questions later’ thinking pattern. What happened on Nibiru should have seen Kirk brought up on charges, but in the span of a few hours he went be being busted to cadet, repromoted back to First Officer, and he just assumed the Captaincy on Pikes death. Is Starfleet really that devoid of command level officers?

251. Phil - November 13, 2013

Okay, maybe I missed something here. When Kirk entered Starfleet Academy, what exactly was he training for, anyway? All of the supporting cast had a particular skill set shown during the show…except for Kirk.

252. LogicalLeopard - November 13, 2013

221. Oscar – November 13, 2013

You can judge a person by their complete works, but it’s more pertinent to judge him by the works you’re concerned with. Which in this case, would be the Star Trek movies he’s done.

I’m not sure if some of the things you mentioned qualify as plot holes. If by transporters, you’re talking about the fact that they couldn’t beam Spock & Khan up but they beamed Uhura down, I think Chekov explained that they were moving around. That’s not so much a plot hole. Normally when people are beamed up, they are standing still. Movement presents problems, as we saw in ST09 with Spock’s mother. So, beaming Uhura down to a platform moving at a constant speed is easier than beaming Spock and Khan up, who not only are on a platform moving at a constant speed but are fighting, an activity that probably mixes the signals up enough that transport wouldn’t work with the safety protocols.

As far as a ship being built in secret and crewed by mercenaries (if that’s what they were) I’m not seeing a hole here. The biggest hole would appear that Scotty was able to get INTO the facility in the first place. We don’t know what type of crew was on it. They weren’t wearing Starfleet uniforms, but then neither was Marcus, and he was Starfleet. I think Scotty asks if the guy was private security, but he never answers him.

I thought the biggest hole was the fact that they slugged it out in the vicinity of Earth without any intervention on behalf of Starfleet. Maybe Marcus told them to stay out of it and maintain guard positions around the planet. I dunno, but really, did this movie present any bigger holes than TOS ever presented?

253. LogicalLeopard - November 13, 2013

246. Phil – November 13, 2013
Okay, maybe I missed something here. When Kirk entered Starfleet Academy, what exactly was he training for, anyway?

*****************************

I don’t think they specified. I don’t think they ever even specified what Kirk’s specialty was in TOS. Other captains have had their specialties revealed during the series, I think Picard was an Archaeologist or some type of Sciences officer, Janeway was in Sciences too, Astrobiology maybe? Sisco was an engineer.

It’s possible that Kirk just majored in Starship Command and “general studies”….I thought that they put Command Officers as helmsmen for some odd reason. I believe Kirk was a helmsman in TOS during an episode focusing on his earlier career.

Another thing I wondered was whether or not Kirk had already “graduated” as maybe a Lt JG and was in “Command School” at the Academy afterward. When Saavik took the Kobayashi Maru test, she was already an officer, she wasn’t an Academy underclassman. That would make the promotion from Cadet to Captain more reasonable, more like Lt. Jg to Captain.

254. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

245. Phil – November 13, 2013

I disagree. In ST.09 it is Kirk’s actions that ultimately save the Earth. He’s the one that puts the relevant puzzle pieces together about what’s really going on in Vulcan space and alerts Pike, but more importantly it’s Kirk who gets Spock out of command and overrides his decision to wait for the rest of the fleet rather than to pursue Nero.

In ST..09 Kirk doesn’t have a real plan, but he finds a way, or at least he shows the leadership quality of creating the conditions whereby a way can be found. He doesn’t just give up which is what Spock does.

And THAT is a glimmer of the Kirk we know, a Kirk who I THOUGHT was going to get more polish than tarnished this go around.

The one gripe I have about Kirk alerting Pike in ST.09 is that it really doesn’t save them. They would have had time to raise the shields anyway as soon as they came out of warp and saw all the debris. so Kirk’s early warning doesn’t count for much. It DOES put them all on alert psychologically much sooner, and that counts for something, but it would have been much better if as soon as the Enterprise came out of warp they got hit by one of Nero’s torpedoes which had been prelaunched to coincide with their arrival.

Nero’s scanners show the ships approaching, so not only would the early raising of the shields have saved the Enterprise from the fate of the other ships with Kirk being the reason why, but it would have actually shown us how Nero effortlessly destroyed so many ships so quickly—i.e., by calculating the arrival of the ships and having torpedoes already “in the air” to greet them when they came out of warp, giving them no time at all to defend themselves.

255. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

246. Phil – November 13, 2013

Okay, maybe I missed something here. When Kirk entered Starfleet Academy, what exactly was he training for, anyway? All of the supporting cast had a particular skill set shown during the show…except for Kirk.

***

Well we know for sure that it wasn’t self defense.

We know from STID that he’s a daring pilot, but his particular focus was never clarified.

256. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

George Kirk was a helmsman when Capt. Robau gives him the seat. I think it’s fair to imagine that Kirk would have been assigned as a helmsman or backup helmsman after graduation.

257. Oscar - November 13, 2013

Eh, Duncan,
A good plot no need fans to fix it.
You try it because you know STID is packet full of holes.
STID diminishes even further by turning into a half assed remake of a far superior movie.

258. LogicalLeopard - November 13, 2013

Memory Alpha says that Kirk was a tactical officer on the Farragut in the episode “Obsession.”

259. LogicalLeopard - November 13, 2013

252)

I can see the merit in the statement “a good plot needs no fans to fix it,” but there is also the issue that sometimes every little thing can’t be verbally explained in the movie. So what looks like a “hole” to one person is not actually a hole, but something that they didnt’ have time to explain fully. My general rule is that if you can figure out a reasonable explanation as to why it might have happened in a minute or two, it’s not a hole.

260. Oscar - November 13, 2013

254
reasonable is the Word.
But the majority of the nu trekkers explanations are forced.A desperate try to fix a mess. And, because of it, ludicrous.

261. Kenji - November 13, 2013

@249

Kirk’s early warning not only put them on edge, but it showed excellent synthesis of seemingly disparate and obscure fragments of information, and succint exposition (including referencing his knowledge that Pike had studied the Kelvin incident in considerable depth).

One key is that when the Enterprise drops out of warp into Vulcan and sees the wreckage of the squadron, Spock gives Kirk a little look – an “aha.” And, shortly thereafter, Pike plays a hunch and brevets Kirk to XO, apparently because Kirk had called it when no one else on the ship (or Fleet intelligence) had done so.

As for Kirk being somewhat tarnished in the sequel, I believe that the Prime Directive violation – and more importantly, Kirk’s unthinking deviousness about breaking that rule – earned him his demotion.

And why not? Kirk was an acting captain in Trek09 but had no time in grade and was not even a commissioned officer. He was an exceptionally talented individual who saved the Federation but even so the decision to bump him up from cadet to Captain (that’s like going from boot camp to Colonel) was audacious and probably wrong.

The wrongness of that decision was illustrated by Kirk’s egregious and breezy attempted coverup of the Niburu planetfall. Pike rightly nailed Kirk for being an egotist who did not fully appreciate the responsibility of his rank.

I think that now we have the preliminaries out of the way, we might do with a Trek movie that does not focus on the immaturity of the Captain and more about his good decisions.

262. Barney - November 13, 2013

Get Peter Jackson to direct Trek 3. If you can’t get Spielberg.

263. Kenji - November 13, 2013

As for the topic of this thread – I love the budget reduction actually in that cheaper Trek means the series is under less pressure to make a billion dollars.

That means the next Trek can get into serious profit without having to be The Most Spectacular And Humongous Thing Ever, i.e. a film that is loaded with photorealistic CG, which is source of lavish spending.

CG is all well and good but it can be lightly applied to the product rather than being the product itself.

It may also force the production into highlighting the likeable qualities of its now established ensemble, which it ought to do in any case to differentiate itself from Star Wars.

Spend the money well and I actually see no reason why Trek cannot actually become one of those real juggernauts. After all, in 2008, who had more name recognition, Spock or Iron Man? It was the excellence of the Iron Man movie, and the broad acceptance of the movie in our culture, that made Marvel Studios the dominant force it is today.

264. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

252. Oscar – November 13, 2013

Have you been reading my remarks? I’ve been quite critical of the movie, but the fact is it isn’t always the script. JJ’s direction is at fault for a lot of the stuff I think went wrong.

254. LogicalLeopard – November 13, 2013

That’s true and they make some assumptions about the smarts of their audience when they decide what to say and not to say, but most of my criticisms aren’t of that sort.

The Cumberbatch casting was a blunder. JJ would never cast Cumberbatch to play Lando Calrissian in Star Wars, but for a franchise that he was never much a fan of it’s suddenly a great idea to cast him as Khan.

And I understand why Kirk got promoted to captain in ST.09. I don’t understand why he ends up with the ship in STID. THAT is so big it’s what the plot of your movie should actually be showing, i.e., Kirk proves that his saving the earth in the first movie was not a fluke and that he’s not a one hit wonder.

I don’t see that in STID and it was the job of STID to show me that if they want me to believe he deserves to be captain by the end again.

Now, if they had KEPT him out of the center seat it would have sort have been a cliffhanger setting up what happens in the next movie. but they chose instead to make his regaining the ship a check box they had to hit.

It does not strike me as authentic because it does not flow as a reasonable consequence of what we see him do, and I’m being far more liberal in my use of the word “reasonable” than a lot of fans are willing to be.

I don’t think that a willingness to sacrifice your life to save the ship, while noble, qualifies you to command the Enterprise. It is, I would say, a necessary but insufficient precondition.

Now I see that they are humbling Kirk and that doing so is necessary to mature the character, but they still went too fast. After the humbling must come the proof of fitness for THAT particular job. Kirk needs to stand APART as THE man singularly capable of commanding the ship in the things he does.

STID didn’t show that part. It was all consumed with his humbling, and not consumed enough either with his rebirth or proving his competency.

265. Oscar - November 13, 2013

256
If a cadet saves the world is a cadet with a medal, a big medal, maybe…But he remains cadet. The rank is a very serious thing, if you want to be captain you need experience.
The decision to bum him up from cadet a captain is ludicrous. Nonsense stuff.
And why is not promoted Spock?
He saves the world, too. And he is commander…he should be captain, no a cadet..
No, only Kirk is promoted.
Boh

266. TUP - November 13, 2013

Okay I stand corrected on the volcano. Was just a stupid idea then.

As pointed out, one of the dumbest things was Kirk becoming first officer in the first place while he was under academic suspension. There was literally no one else on that ship that outranked a cadet on suspension?

267. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

256. Kenji – November 13, 2013

Kirk’s early warning not only put them on edge, but it showed excellent synthesis of seemingly disparate and obscure fragments of information, and succint exposition (including referencing his knowledge that Pike had studied the Kelvin incident in considerable depth).

***

Oh I agree with you. It does. THAT is the Kirk I expected to see more of in the sequel.

But it still would have made more sense if Spock’s “Aha!” look came after an immediate strike by one of Nero’s torpedoes right after they came out of warp, proving that Kirk just saved all their lives by giving them advance warning and raising the shields before the threat was visible. THEN they have to avoid the debris, and THEN Nero holds off his second shot.

That rewrite would have made a little more sense.

268. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

The Enterprise comes out of warp in front of a massive debris field and an incoming light right in the middle of the viewscreen that passes under the saucer.

The ship rumbles with an explosian.

“Torpedo strike!” Checkov yells.

“Yeah, I get that!” Pike responds sarcastically. “Evasive!!!”

Kirk looks at Spock, Spock looks at Kirk. “Aha! You were right!” Spock’s raised eyebrow seems to say.

269. SkiesSeven - November 13, 2013

I seriously wanted to see Pike back as Captain and Kirk as his first officer, as had been implied in the bar scene. But then an emergency meeting happens, and it’s Godfather-style extermination, with Pike being the prime victim.

Wouldn’t it have been more fitting for Pike to die on the Enterprise? And with Kirk taking over?

270. Phil - November 13, 2013

Only because I’m playing devil’s advocate at this point, Kirks warning was also an example of him being at the right place, at the right time. His conclusion came from some overheard information, and personal experience, handy at that moment, because happenstance placed him on Enterprise, as opposed to being grounded at the Academy where he was supposed to be, but completely useless in any future situation, unless all he ever encounters in his future command are pissed off Romulans from the future. By virtue of the fact that he was rather easily played by Marcus and Khan in STID just further illustrates that all Kirk brings to the game is impulsiveness.

And again, for this Kirks defenders, I get it, it’s fiction. JTK can do whatever he wants, because he’s the captain…

271. Invinted-X - November 13, 2013

@ 201. Red Dead Ryan – November 12, 2013
What I can’t stand is the Spock/Uhura romance. There was simply no need for it.

@224. Ahmed – November 13, 2013
———————————————————————————————–
oh please the both of you. shut up…shut up.

The S/U romance that was hardly featured in a 2 hours film was the least of the film’s problems. I hate when people attack romantic pairings in films because it is such an easy target.

The rehash writing, too much action and striping down to bra and paints and the khan scream was more damaging to the film than the romance.

272. SkiesSeven - November 13, 2013

@Phil

“By virtue of the fact that he was rather easily played by Marcus and Khan in STID just further illustrates that all Kirk brings to the game is impulsiveness.”

——–

In fairness, STID did have it’s redeeming qualities. Like Spock commenting to Kirk on the immorality of their mission, which ended up changing Kirk’s decision from firing the torpedoes to capturing Kahn for trial.

Also, Scotty was great. Definitely one of the highlights, if not the best developed character in the film.

273. Phil - November 13, 2013

@264 – I could have gotten into a series of movies with Pike as Captain, Kirk as the XO, and Spock as Science Officer. It would not have killed the franchise to have Kirk mentored for a while, and Kirk learning to earn the trust of those he leapfrogged over to land his plum assignment…

274. Kenji - November 13, 2013

@262

“After the humbling must come the proof of fitness for THAT particular job. Kirk needs to stand APART as THE man singularly capable of commanding the ship in the things he does.

STID didn’t show that part. It was all consumed with his humbling, and not consumed enough either with his rebirth or proving his competency.”

I’m reading about the British navy in the Napoleanic Wars and am quite comfortable with the notion that the Admiralty promotes commanders who they like, not who is the most senior or who tests the best. In Kirk, they have a commander who is probably (I would like to have seen some of this) enormously popular among Terrans at least, and who also passed a practical test of sorts in bringing about the defeat of a future starship that easily laid waste to a squadron of Federation ships.

So I have no real concern about Kirk proving his fitness. And you and me, we know he’s Kirk, or will be the Kirk we know.

In STID, a movie that irks me on some levels, I still think the script gave him opportunities to prove his greatness. It was not merely that he sacrificed himself. The sacrifice was incidental, not the object. The object was to get the Enterprise going again in order to save the ship, crew, and whoever and whatever it was about to crash into.

Kirk also exposed a secret starship building program, disabled that craft, attempted (possibly successfully, or not – but the effort would be known) to prevent Admiral Marcus from unilaterally starting a war with the Klingon Empire, and did prevent him from murdering 72 frozen augments.

These are all good decisions, somewhat overshadowed by the film’s tonal problems which I attribute to an irony: the excessive, sentimental devotion of Orci and Kurtzman to Trek canon, which led them to attempt to be clever in riffing on WoK’s most iconic lines and moments.

(It could have been worse, fans. What if they had decided to celebrate Spectre of the Gun or Way To Eden or Spock’s Brain?)

275. sleeping - November 13, 2013

@ 201. Red Dead Ryan – November 12, 2013
What I can’t stand is the Spock/Uhura romance. There was simply no need for it.

@224. Ahmed – November 13, 2013
———————————————————————————————–

urgh please,

get off the romance. the romance was hardly even in the film and was the least of the film’s problems.

276. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

265. Phil – November 13, 2013

The way I read it is that Kirk has a talent for correctly connecting disparate pieces of information that aren’t obviously connected, and making correct conclusions that would not otherwise be made. That is a real skill that some people have and others do not. To make those connections, pieces of information you get have to pop out in your awareness as relationships to other things which you may not be thinking about and which other people do not see because things do not “pop out” to them the same way even when they have the same information you have.

That scene begins with Kirk sitting up out of unconsciousness when at some level of awareness he hears Chekov purveying relevant information—and that condition is an instinctively wise choice on the writer’s part to have him in when he makes the connections. He’s pseudo-shamanic Kirk right there, coming up from the depths with something that nobody else has and which is crucial to saving all their lives.

277. Keachick - November 13, 2013

#255 – “But the majority of the nu trekkers explanations are forced.A desperate try to fix a mess. And, because of it, ludicrous.”

Any explanation I give is not forced. In fact, it is bleedin’ obvious to me and more often than not, my head keeps spinning at how often so many people don’t seem to get things or how distracted they can get, especially the ones who complain about the so-called “ADHD” afflicted nutrek lovers.

Thank you, James. This young Captain Kirk did not act out of character at all.

I despair at what Phil and dmduncan have presented on this thread re Kirk’s actions on Nibiru. Also, they have been distracted, as so many have, by arguing about the various merits of futuristic technologies (DOH), while completing missing the moral/ethical considerations that come with such a notion and practice of the Prime Directive.

Oh, and btw, typhoons, monsoons, various cyclones tend to be the normal weather patterns for South East Asia, including the Philippines. So I guess it is the destiny of present day Philippine people to be killed or later die from starvation and disease, so really that US Aircraft carrier should not be trying to provide any kind of aid to the thousands of hungry and homeless…

Then again, there is no Prime Directive decree. Damn shame really. It would be so much easier and interesting just to observe, from a distance, how these people survive or not – just like what Pike, Marcus, Phil and dmduncan expected Kirk and his Enterprise crew to do as they watched on, in complete and hidden safety, while a planet and people went under while, all the time, sitting on a technology that just might help avert a major disaster…

Oh the nobility, the humanity…
(Read my sarcasm)

278. Matt Wright - November 13, 2013

@ #275 “sleeping” alias “Invinted-X”, et. al.

Okay, stop trying to post the same basic comment over and over again, I had to clean up 10+ comments you spammed the system with. Every time that you use a new combination of name and e-mail address you are a new person to the comment system which means it will still need approval. This is exactly why there is a disclaimer that says to be patient. All you needed to do is wait for the approval of your comment.

I approved the most recent version, you can find it at #271
And then I see you used another permutation a few minutes later and posted the same sentiment.

You got your comment in, can we move forward please?

Also stick to one name/e-mail address that way you can post again without needing approval.

279. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 271. Invinted-X, 275. sleeping

I’m sorry, are you guys the same person or what ??

The romance was very annoying & don’t tell me it was hardly in the movie. Go back & watch the the shuttle scene or watch the other scenes where Uhura could hardly focus on her job because her boyfriend was about to die.

“The rehash writing, too much action and striping down to bra and paints and the khan scream was more damaging to the film than the romance.”

True, I agree with you , but the whole romance thing just changed Spock, he is way too emotional, you can hardly see the logical side of him. He is either crying, shouting, screaming or blasting something/someone.

280. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@Matt,

Guess I was right :)
Thanks for keeping a sharp eye here.

281. Kenji - November 13, 2013

@279

The romance thing is both good and bad.

It’s good that it opens up Spock and Uhura as people, with recognizable personal needs and conflicts, and not just as spacemen in spacesuits doing space things in space, which is why a lot of people can’t get into science fiction.

It’s also fun for longtime Trekkers like myself who remember Spock playing his Vulcan harp and Uhura crooning along.

It’s bad in that these movies don’t pass the Bechdel test, and that is nearly criminal given the message of integration of humanity with which Trek has generally striven to convey.

282. Oscar - November 13, 2013

Beh, if Abrams and his team of 14 years old screenwriters can not come up with anything original for the crew of the Enterprise, after four years spent developing this developing this sequel, it,s time to give some else a try.

283. Phil - November 13, 2013

@272. Oh, I enjoyed the movie, though I felt no reason to see it more then once. And generally, the characters are somewhat true to how they were envisioned…except for Kirk, who seems to be getting the short end of the development stick here. At the end of the day, I can live with the Teflon Captain, though I do hope that whatever immortality Kirk has due to the magic blood treatment is only…temporary.

284. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

274. Kenji – November 13, 2013

I’m reading about the British navy in the Napoleanic Wars and am quite comfortable with the notion that the Admiralty promotes commanders who they like, not who is the most senior or who tests the best. In Kirk, they have a commander who is probably (I would like to have seen some of this) enormously popular among Terrans at least, and who also passed a practical test of sorts in bringing about the defeat of a future starship that easily laid waste to a squadron of Federation ships.

***

That’s not relevant. The reason for removing Kirk from command was fan criticism that he was promoted too fast in the first movie. Whether you agree with those fans or not, that was why the writers did what they did in STID, and since they did it they open themselves up to questions about whether what they showed really solves the problem they took his ship away to solve.

It does not. Pike gets killed and Marcus gives him his ship back as part of a plan to get him killed! He gets his ship back by a weird sort of default.

“Kirk also exposed a secret starship building program, disabled that craft, attempted (possibly successfully, or not – but the effort would be known) to prevent Admiral Marcus from unilaterally starting a war with the Klingon Empire, and did prevent him from murdering 72 frozen augments.”

Kirk, Khan, and Scotty disabled the Vengeance with Scotty being the biggest savior of the sequence.

At the time Kirk wisely decides NOT to use the torpedoes he didn’t even know they contained human beings, so you can hardly attribute his “saving” them to a conscious decision on his part not to sacrifice human lives. Kirk did the right thing because Spock and Scotty’s advice was overshadowing his thinking not because he was trying to save lives in the torpedoes, which is still a good choice but more modest than what you are making it out to seem.

And Spock is the one who outwits Khan—the role of *outwitting* classically belongs to Kirk, but they gave it to Spock because they’re trying to boost his ratings.

So how does Kirk distinguish HIMSELF in STID the way he did in ST.09? He doesn’t really, other than giving up his life which as I already said is very noble but not really what we need to see, particularly in contrast to the guy he used to be who managed to always eek out a win without having to get himself killed.

To solve the problem they took his ship away to solve they should have had Kirk OUTperform himself from ST.09, but instead he underperforms himself.

STID is Kirk’s bad-day-at-the-office movie. His “vitals are way off.”

“So I have no real concern about Kirk proving his fitness. And you and me, we know he’s Kirk, or will be the Kirk we know.”

See that’s what I was saying after ST..09 to critics of Kirk who said he was now just a fratboy.

Give him a chance, I said. He’s evolving. In the next movie Kirk will arrive.

285. Oscar - November 13, 2013

284
Duncan, This pseudo Kirk is not evolving, that,s the problem. And next trek movie will be his last chance. After that, Abramstrek is done. So, no matter.He will be only a has been.

286. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

277. Keachick – November 13, 2013

Keachick, I like you, but you are despairing because you are trying to see clothes on a naked emperor.

Kirk is my favorite character, as he is, I think, yours. THAT is why I am complaining. It’s nothing personal against Pine, and I’m not attacking the character I love, I’m attacking this weird new portrayal that was dangerously close to the Kirk parody of Zapp Brannigan, particularly in the opening sequence.

I want better than that for Kirk.

287. Bill Peters - November 13, 2013

I think these Films show a great new side to the characters we know, I really think that people are too quick to Judge what is coming based on what they have seen, I like the new take on Spock and his life and Uhura, and I know we will see the Development of these Characters in the next Star Trek Movie.

288. Oscar - November 13, 2013

Seriously, Duncan
Let,s compare
Television Kirk loves books and was pensive, quoting the US constitution and Jonh Mansefield,he is a diplomat, a explorer, a guy who can talk planet ruling computers into short circuiting themselves, Pine,s Kirk is a bruiser, reckless, thickheaded know it all. And that is a Real shame, because Kirk is a very interesting character.
Original Kirk is a good example for young people, the new Kirk is not, a cheater and smug boy,

289. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 288. Oscar – November 13, 2013

“Original Kirk is a good example for young people, the new Kirk is not, a cheater and smug boy,”

Yet, the new Kirk is the captain of the USS Enterprise, the flagship of Starfleet !! Man, they really have very high standards in that new universe.

In the next movie, Kirk will be demoted again, actually for the 3rd time, and only after destroying his ship & Earth in the process, he will be promoted to the rank of an admiral !

Because we all know that he can do better, that is his DESTINY.

290. Reboot Fan wants more - November 13, 2013

If they want butts in the seat it’s quite simple:

a. It’s suppose to be a reboot universe…don’t do a sequel. And don’t do a sequel to a sequel.

b. Fan favorites have a built in fan base who are more than likely going to pay to see the movie more than once. Sending them into Marcus’ version of non-existence, ie, the Romulan Border and…non-existence…not a good idea.

c. Tits and ass only has a fan base that covers, well, tits and ass. And half that fan base has to have their mothers drive them to the theater. They are going home to look at tits and ass on the computer and never return.

d. Star Trek was about the Trio: Kirk, Spock, and McCoy not Kirk, Spock, and Spock’s GF. And a little less shirt on the three, McCoy in particular, can go a long way. Don’t get me wrong, I like the fact that Uhura was romantic as well as badass, but McCoy needs to be romantic as well as badass too, and yes, even a doctor can shoot to kill, under the convention. That I’d like to see.

e. Don’t adhere to a 2 hour time limit if it’s a good plot.

I’m done…for now.

291. K-7 - November 13, 2013

Actually, the new Kirk is a much better and more attainable example for today’s youth. Youth today are not like when we were kids. Pine-Kirk is a better fit for them to learn from, hands-down.

If you went back to a Shat-Kirk old fashioned style approach, most kids today would not releate.

It is what it is.

292. K-7 - November 13, 2013

#285 “Duncan, This pseudo Kirk is not evolving, that,s the problem. And next trek movie will be his last chance. After that, Abramstrek is done. So, no matter.He will be only a has been.”

Nope, Pine is signed for 2 MORE movies, not one.

293. K-7 - November 13, 2013

#279 “The romance was very annoying & don’t tell me it was hardly in the movie. Go back & watch the the shuttle scene or watch the other scenes where Uhura could hardly focus on her job because her boyfriend was about to die.”

Yea, i was fine with the understated Spock-Uhura romance in the first movie, but seeing that devolve into a love-spat on the shuttle, during duty, was horrid. I felt bad for Zaldana that the writers made here come across as so contrived like that.

294. Captain Dunsel - November 13, 2013

Perhaps they will film in New Zealand, and Karl Urban can work close to home!

295. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 292. K-7 – November 13, 2013

“Nope, Pine is signed for 2 MORE movies, not one.”

Dear God, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Now, that is out of the way, where did you read that ?

296. Dave H - November 13, 2013

@ 265 – Oscar – November 13, 2013

“If a cadet saves the world is a cadet with a medal, a big medal, maybe…But he remains cadet. The rank is a very serious thing, if you want to be captain you need experience. The decision to bum him up from cadet a captain is ludicrous. Nonsense stuff.”

Hmm, interesting, given we that know that during Deep Space Nine, a cadet was promoted to Commander just for saving one single star-ship:

“Karen Farris — Cadet Group Red Squadron in 2374. She was assigned to the USS Valiant on a training mission prior to the outbreak of the Dominion War. When the war began, the Valiant was trapped behind enemy lines and severely damaged in a Cardassian attack that killed all of the officers. Farris was given a field promotion to commander and a position as first officer by acting captain Tim Watters. (note: promotion upheld by Starfleet)”

This would seem to completely contradict your point here??? How do you explain this, Oscar??? Was this nonsense as well???

You be well-advised to not overreach so much when bringing opinions to the table here, as most of here are very well educated on Trek history and tidbits like this example above.

297. Red Dead Ryan - November 13, 2013

Yes, I agree with K-7. The new Kirk portrayal is more in line with today’s young men and boys, especially those whose dads died when they were very young, or were total deadbeats, or highly abusive.

And a lot of these kids end up getting into trouble with the law as a result of a lack of father figures to keep them on the straight and narrow in their lives.

The Shat-Kirk that we all know and love is a bit outdated now. Kind of how the Adam West’s Batman would be out of place in today’s pop culture environment.

298. K-7 - November 13, 2013

Ahmed,

MJ broke this story here in a fan thread on Trekmovie.com in June, from an interview with Pine that he picked up from a British newspaper’s web site, who was interviewing Pine at the British STID premiere:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/star-trek-darkness-chris-pine-1871313

It’s amazing that MJ is always finding this stuff that no one else seems to pick up on.

299. K-7 - November 13, 2013

Re: Dave H

Hey, I had forgotten about Farris. That is a great example. If she can go from Cadet to Commander for saving one starship, then Kirk going from Cadet to Captain for saving perhaps half a trilliion citizens of the Federation worlds from near certain destruction sounds completely reasonable now.

300. Dave H - November 13, 2013

@295

“Dear God, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO”

So much, Ahmed, for your pretending of late to like at least Trek 2009 and the general approach of nuTrek. :-(

You kind of let your true colors slip with this remark. Come on, man, let loose of “bad Ahmed” who hates Orci and nuTrek, and return to the reasoned “Good Ahmed” guy who liked Trek 2009, Pine and the general approach of nuTrek?

Or at least just be honest and admit once and for all that you hat nuTrek? Pretending to like it is dishonest. Stand up for whatever you really believe, please.

301. Phil - November 13, 2013

@299. Commander can be a title as well as rank – it’s not uncommon in naval service that smaller ships have commanders who may hold the rank of Lieutenant or Commander.

302. Red Dead Ryan - November 13, 2013

I believe that Karen Farris’ promotion was given by an inexperienced cadet who self-promoted himself to captain after the main Valiant crew were killed in conflict. “Captain” Watters was so full of himself yet was undone in the end by his own hubris and bad tactical skills which got most of his fellow Red Squad crew killed, and the Valiant (a highly valuable Defiant-class ship) destroyed.

Dave H. is right, there has been precendent for these types of promotions, though in the case of Watters and the Red Squad crew of the Valiant, it proved fatal in the end.

Starfleet is a bureaucracy which is going to make these types of decisions from time to time. In the case of nuKirk, it paid off since he saved Earth from destruction. In the case of Watters, it didn’t because Starfleet lost a valuable ship and crew in the Dominion War.

303. Phil - November 13, 2013

@294. Keychick would be thrilled, as well.

304. K-7 - November 13, 2013

@300

Yea, Dave I don’t get that either? A couple of months ago, Ahmed is complaining about not getting a green-light for the next movie. Yet now, he seems to wish that the next movie is the last one. What the hell?

305. Oscar - November 13, 2013

296
Because
A. It is training space ship.And, a cardassian attack killed All senior officers.
Only solution, field promotions. Only solution..
In ST 2009, not, in ST 2009, it is a definitive promotion, and the ship is not a school space ship, but the flag space ship. And commander and captain it is not the same thing. A captain is always commander, but a commander can be a low rank if field promotion is needed.
Wrong example. Have more?

306. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@K-7 & Dave H

I’m not happy about the way Kirk is written in the STID. In Star Trek 2009, it was ok to write new Kirk in that fashion because this was his first command & first test. But to see the same dumb, skirt chaser Kirk in the 2nd movie was too much.

Kirk is the captain of the flagship, he should act the role & stop being too cute & dumb.

And I said that I liked ST09 but didn’t like STID, it is not hard to understand this, right ?

307. Red Dead Ryan - November 13, 2013

#305.

Watters was a fool on a fool’s errand when he commanded the Valiant to attack a much bigger, and much powerful Jem’ Hadar prototype warship that was armed to the teeth. I mean, this guy dismissed Jake Sisko’s concerns about his strategy right off the bat, despite the fact that Sisko’s dad helped design the Defiant-class ships, and is much more experienced on the battle field as commander.

Starfleet obviously screwed up big time by upholding Watters’ field promotions without ordering him back into Federation space first.

308. Oscar - November 13, 2013

302 red dead Ryan.
«There has been precedents for these types of promotions». Yes? For definitive promotions from Suspended for cheater cadet to captain of the flag ship…
Error, there has not been. Because is a ludicrous idea. And before Star Trek 2009 ST was not a ludicrous stuff.

309. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 298. K-7 – November 13, 2013

“MJ broke this story here in a fan thread on Trekmovie.com in June, from an interview with Pine that he picked up from a British newspaper’s web site, who was interviewing Pine at the British STID premiere:”

This is just one source. Everyone else on the Internet saying they are contacted for just 3 movies in total .

Here is a link to a video interview where Pine is saying that he is obligated to do a 3rd movie, not 2 movies

http://www.wkyc.com/video/2348934945001/1/JJ-Abrams-and-Chris-Pine-Talk-About-a-Third-Star-Trek-Movie

310. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

oops I meant, contracted, not contacted

311. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

All,

The Farris example is a great one to compare to the Kirk promotion example. Pike already gave Kirk a Field Promotion to First Officer/Commander during the destruction of Vulcan for Kirk’s outstanding actions in saving the ship by forecasting the “Romulan” attack on Vulcan. Then Spock resigns his command and Kirk becomes the acting Captain, at which time his actions lead to saving all of the major Federation worlds. So back at Starfleet, they were faced with what rank to formalize for Kirk.

At that point, I think the best choice would be to formalize him as First Officer/Commander — which would be simply formalizing the Battlefied promotion already given to Kirk. That would have been the best and most likely choice, and would have allowed for Kirk to learn more under Pike.

But they went for full Captain, which I imagine was partly due to Pike’s recommendation, and the fact that Pike would need to go on extended medical leave in any case. (and, rather ingeniously, this sets up the further learning for the unseasoned Kirk In STID, when it’s clear that he wasn’t ready to be a Captain…so it worked out story-wise after all).

The point is, that Commander Kirk was the more appropriate rank for his to be give, but i can see how they might have went for Captain as well, and how this nicely set up Kirk’s learning in STID.

But certainly, this idea by this Oscar guy that he gets put back to cadet — that is just about the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard someone say on this site. That comment is Dead on Arrival.

312. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

Ahmed,

He’s signed for 2 more movies. I believe my source, and if you read it, you will see that Pine had a “whoops, I shouldn’t have said that” moment.

You are free to convince yourself whatever you want, but I am fully convinced that Pine is signed for two more movies, and would bet $$$ with you that this is the case, and I would stake my reputation here on Trekmovie.com that this is case as well.

313. Invinted-X - November 13, 2013

308. Invinted-X – November 13, 2013
279. Ahmed – November 13, 2013
@ 271. Invinted-X, 275. sleeping

I’m sorry, are you guys the same person or what ??

The romance was very annoying & don’t tell me it was hardly in the movie. Go back & watch the the shuttle scene or watch the other scenes where Uhura could hardly focus on her job because her boyfriend was about to die.

“The rehash writing, too much action and striping down to bra and paints and the khan scream was more damaging to the film than the romance.”

True, I agree with you , but the whole romance thing just changed Spock, he is way too emotional, you can hardly see the logical side of him. He is either crying, shouting, screaming or blasting something/someone.
————————————————————–

Actually its not the romance, it is the way it was written. I loved the idea of the S/U romance when I was watching the first film. it reminded of a Lord of the rings couple.Aragorn/Arwen,

Then the writers ruined it a bit with the shitty writing and that writing extended to the whole film.

I wish they had kept the romance very mysterious and anonymous as they did in the first film. It fitted their characters better.

Forgive me, I really wanted Orci to write like JRR Tolkien and he did not.

its not like the romance wasn’t well done in the first film. it was.

it just wasn’t well done in the second film. However it is no excuse for some guys to single it out and attack it because romance in general is always the easy target to attack in a film or a tv series and that’s not nice

314. Dave H - November 13, 2013

MJ,

On that interview, the fact that Pine obviously slipped up and mentioned that “I should not have said that” right after he says he signed on for two more movies…duh! The guy was tired, and wasn’t support to mention that. So yea, that’s a real moment their outside of the studio script of what he and the other actors were suppose to say in these interviews.

Ahmed pointing out other interview where Pine didn’t slip up — where he stuck to the “studio script” of what he was allowed to say — proves nothing at all, other then Ahmed having a predilection to believe in more what the studio press machine wants him to hear.

2 more movies it is then. AWESOME !!!

315. Dave H - November 13, 2013

MJ, I agree 100%.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
311. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 13, 2013
All,

The Farris example is a great one to compare to the Kirk promotion example. Pike already gave Kirk a Field Promotion to First Officer/Commander during the destruction of Vulcan for Kirk’s outstanding actions in saving the ship by forecasting the “Romulan” attack on Vulcan. Then Spock resigns his command and Kirk becomes the acting Captain, at which time his actions lead to saving all of the major Federation worlds. So back at Starfleet, they were faced with what rank to formalize for Kirk.

At that point, I think the best choice would be to formalize him as First Officer/Commander — which would be simply formalizing the Battlefied promotion already given to Kirk. That would have been the best and most likely choice, and would have allowed for Kirk to learn more under Pike.

But they went for full Captain, which I imagine was partly due to Pike’s recommendation, and the fact that Pike would need to go on extended medical leave in any case. (and, rather ingeniously, this sets up the further learning for the unseasoned Kirk In STID, when it’s clear that he wasn’t ready to be a Captain…so it worked out story-wise after all).

The point is, that Commander Kirk was the more appropriate rank for his to be give, but i can see how they might have went for Captain as well, and how this nicely set up Kirk’s learning in STID.

But certainly, this idea by this Oscar guy that he gets put back to cadet — that is just about the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard someone say on this site. That comment is Dead on Arrival.

316. Phil - November 13, 2013

Well, lets get the next movie made first. Then we worry about if there is a forth one with this cast or not.

317. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

Good point, Phil.

But these nuTrek haters who were hoping for just one more movie, following by some magical return of some “Berman-like” Trek series to TV — they are all in a for a rude awakening.

318. Phil - November 13, 2013

Yeah, the New Universe isn’t going away, Paramount likes Bad Robot, Bat Robot has made them a bunch of money with this Trek, and Bad Robot has plenty of people waiting in the wings who want to run with this. The New Universe is here to stay….

319. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@@ 316. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 13, 2013

“But these nuTrek haters who were hoping for just one more movie, following by some magical return of some “Berman-like” Trek series to TV — they are all in a for a rude awakening.”

Dude, give me a good movie next time & I will be more than happy to promote the 4th, 5th & 6th movies by these guys.

320. Keachick - November 13, 2013

#288 – Holy moly – must ignore, must ignore, must ignore…:(

#286 – dmduncan – Oh no, you don’t!

I cannot see anywhere, on this thread, my writing the letters – ‘p’, ‘i’, ‘n’, ‘e’, in reference to any person nor any of the variety of trees being defined by those letters/word. Mentioning the actor’s name in the context of what is being discussed is what is called deflection.

Goats are not necessarily any more stupid an animal than any other domesticated creature. “Scapegoat” comes from Judaism. In those times way back, goats (similar done with pigs) became the animals where, at certain times, people under the auspices of rabbis, would cast out their own sins onto these poor animals and then the people would chase a herd of these goats to high cliffs where they would force these animals to plummet to their deaths. In so doing, they believed that all their sins were washed away through the mass sacrifice of these animals.

Jim Kirk is STID’s scapegoat…He was “shoved over that cliff” when he was demoted, while his team, ie Spock, Uhura, McCoy, Sulu, Scotty, remained untouched. The problem with Kirk is that he was a captain who had faith in the abilities of his main crew and the notion of genuine consensus and that he/they were in this together. Unfortunately, he naively forgot that Starfleet with its strict, almost militaristic hierarchy, did/could not see and do as the young Kirk did…which is why Kirk got dumped on, not only by Pike and Starfleet, but by most of the people commenting here. People’s sense of genuine fairplay seems somewhat askew to me which is why so many are judging this character so harshly.

I say this because, later when Scotty is opposing Kirk about letting the new torpedoes come onto the Enterprise, Scotty is shocked and surprised at Kirk’s apparent intolerant and insistent attitude and is actually prepared to accept Scotty’s resignation over the matter. This is not the Kirk Scotty had come to know…nor is he necessarily the kind of person Kirk wants to be either. Kirk’s behaviour was the result of being severely chewed out by senior Starfleet command and he learns that he needs to simply be in command, give orders and have them obeyed, no matter what…

Kirk had little reason not to trust Admiral Marcus. Why would he? The fact that this Admiral betrayed him (and Starfleet) does not make Kirk stupid, reckless, thick, bad or anything else. He became a victim of Marcus and Khan’s various manipulations, but never gave up, despite being the scapegoat and suffering the harshest of mental and physical brutality, ultimately ending in his death… Frankly, if anyone ever deserved to resurrected in every sense, it was this young Jim Kirk.

Why the writers thought that this individual “deserved” such prolonged, tortuous beatings, I do not know and Bob Orci tends to remain when confronted with these questions…

321. Red Dead Ryan - November 13, 2013

I’ll say it again: The haters need to do better jobs at countering our arguments with facts of their own. So far, they haven’t done that.

The haters claimed that NuKirk’s promotion from cadet to captain was unprecedented. Dave H. proved that it was incorrect when he mentioned Karen Farris’ promotion on the Valiant.

The haters claim that Chris Pine is only on for one for movie, when in fact that MJ has repeatedly proven he is signed on for TWO more.

The haters have done an excellent job of not allowing facts to get in the way of their disdain for the new movies. If they were more open to the facts, they would have no leg to stand on. I call this the “false leg defense” tactic similar to what defense lawyers resort to when they are losing their court cases. :-)

322. Red Dead Ryan - November 13, 2013

#318.

“Dude, give me a good movie next time & I will be more than happy to promote the 4th, 5th & 6th movies by these guys.”

They have already made TWO good movies…..and you’ve hated both of them.

Please admit that you aren’t a fan of these movies so that we can all move on from this controversy here?

323. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@RDR,

“They have already made TWO good movies…..and you’ve hated both of them.

Please admit that you aren’t a fan of these movies so that we can all move on from this controversy here?”

I didn’t know that we have someone from thinkpol here !

324. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

RDR,

I do recall that Ahmed liked ST-2009, with some reservations. What is puzzling to me though how negative he has gone with STID. I remember in the 80’s, how it was a running joke with fans the even movies weren’t that good, but no one was spouting this kind of negativity…everyone gave Harve Bennett and team the grace to do better with the next movie.

I mean, fine, Ahmed, they are batting .500 in your opinion with the two JJ movies. That’s about the historical average for Trek. Why get so worked up about this particular move that you didn’t like???

325. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

I meant that the “odd” movies weren’t so good.

326. crazydaystrom - November 13, 2013

As I’ve said before, I like Pine. The way his character is written, less so.

Btw I saw a trailer for Jack Ryan and there was a scene where he, his wife/gf and his his superior were having a discussion. Jack and his gf start to spat a bit, not unlike the scene in STID with Spock, Uhura and Kirk. Jack ask, almost flippantly, if he the lady could have just a moment ( presumably to settle their spat) and the superior, played by Kevin Costner immediately said NO! This is time for serious business! *paraphrased*. I just smiled thinking that scene had to be a referencing the the STID scene. Of course I could be wrong about that but both the similarities and the differences were remarkable.

327. Keachick - November 13, 2013

I had always thought that Chris Pine and the other main actors had signed on for three Star Trek movies, but if Chris has signed on to make another two Star Trek movies as “my captain” after the first two, then that is VERY COOL!

Incidentally, this young Kirk has not done nearly enough “skirt chasing” and after the horrible battering and fight to live again, he is certainly in real need of some good loving and proper healing. Menosia can provide…

Actually, I mentioned the possibility of some of the second Star Trek movie being filmed in NZ way back. I hope NZ has not become too expensive, like some other places. It would be kinda nice having a Trek filmed here and even nicer if I could get an opportunity to meet cast, see sets etc…oh well, dreams are free…:)

328. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@MJ,

I guess that I don’t like dumba** like RDR & others pretending to know what I like or don’t like.

What I was talking about here was the fact that I didn’t like the way they wrote Kirk in STID. If they improved his character in the next one, that would be great. But I’m not excited about seeing same dumb Kirk in future movies. Two movies were more than enough.

I don’t like STID, I watched once in theater & a second time on DVD with a friend & didn’t even finished it. That is my opinion, you don’t have to like it or dislike it, it is simply my personal view.

For the next one, I hope it will be a lot better than STID.

329. crazydaystrom - November 13, 2013

319. Keachick
Holy moly…
“Scapegoat” comes from Judaism

Must we bring religion into this Rose? tsk, tsk

I keed! I keed!

330. Dave H - November 13, 2013

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I thing one of the reasons that STID didn’t far exceed the box office of ST-2000 is because Benedict Cumberbatch didn’t really nail the part of Harrison/Khan. In fact, in seeing other movies of his this year, including the disappointing 5th Estate, my personal conclusion is that he is more of a TV star sort of guy, but is not really the A-lister type of movie star that we were being sold on.

In retrospect, I wish they had spent the extra dollars and brought it Benecio Del Toro for the role. Bencio could have channeled something closer to Montlebahn as well, which would have diminished a lot of the Khan bitching here and elsewhere.

331. Red Dead Ryan - November 13, 2013

MJ,

I will say that Ahmed tends to be more negative than positive towards the new movies. If he does like “Star Trek” 09, it’s only just barely. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Also, I have to say that not all the odd-numbered movies are bad. “Star Trek III: The Search For Spock” is outstanding as a Trek movie, and a worthy follow-up to “The Wrath Of Khan”. Some of the best character moments are in that movie.

332. Colin - November 13, 2013

If anything that the episode “Valiant” proves is that the writers have the capacity to be absurd. We are led to believe that Starfleet would give one of their state-of-art warships to an elite squad of cadets for training. It would be equivalent to a squad from the Naval Academy at Annapolis being given the USS Zumwalt for training.

We are a long way from the days when Starfleet captains had to earn a captain’s chair on one of the capital ships of the fleet. The original Kirk became captain of the USS Enterprise after serving a stint on an earlier command.

333. Red Dead Ryan - November 13, 2013

I see Ahmed has resorted to petty name calling again.

Dave H, you make some good points about Benedict Cumberbatch being more of a tv actor. I did think he was good as Khan, though I do agree there were better actors available.

334. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

RDR,

Well, I was very surprised the way Ahmed kind of freaked out here with his “nooooooooooooo” when he learned that there would be two more movies. That certainly doesn’t come across like, “hey I loved one movie but didn’t like the other.” That comes across more negative than that — likes he wants the movies to just end.

335. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

RDR & MJ,

Would you please inform me of the way you two are able to read my mind & found out my REAL opinions toward ST09 ?

336. Red Dead Ryan - November 13, 2013

#331.

I do agree that the episode “Valiant” was a bit absurd, though I can see what the writers were trying to do. Not everyone is cut out for command, and I think when you compare Watters to nuKirk, that point is hammered home.

NuKirk is reckless, but that has more to do with his youthful energy and the fact his father died when he was being born as opposed to the pure arrogance and machismo being displayed by the drug-addled Watters.

Also, Watters was working for Admiral Leighton a couple of years earlier who was attempting to install a military dictatorship on Earth to defend against the Dominion.

NuKirk, on the other hand, eventually came to realize that Admiral Marcus was a wolf in sheep’s clothing and didn’t carry out Marcus’s orders and went with Khan to attempt to arrest the admiral before Khan went berserk.

NuKirk has that rebellious side which, ironically, has served him well when the stakes are highest, unlike Watters, whose absolute devotedness to the establishment and machsimo ended up being his downfall.

337. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@MJ,

“Well, I was very surprised the way Ahmed kind of freaked out here with his “nooooooooooooo” when he learned that there would be two more movies.”

I was specifically responding to K-7 comment that Pine will be in 2 more movies. Read the exchange between me & K-7 before you jump to conclusions

338. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

I can’t read your mind. Which is exactly why I don’t get your reaction to the two more movies thing? Can you better explain that reaction:

“Dear God, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO”

????

339. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

@336. see my post immediately above. Still not sure what you mean here. You say I can’t read your mind, so please explain to me what you meant by saying that Dear-God-nooooo thing? As you said, I can’t read your mind.

340. K-7 - November 13, 2013

Ahmed,

So does “Dear God, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO” mean for you:

“Hey, I’m really, really looking forward to more nuTrek movies!”

LOL

341. Dave H - November 13, 2013

For us male Trek-geek fans, the saying “Dear God, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO” is something we’ve heard a lot from the opposite sex far too many times over the years.

342. crazydaystrom - November 13, 2013

340. Dave H
??!??!??

343. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 339. K-7 – November 13, 2013

“So does “Dear God, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO” mean for you:

“Hey, I’m really, really looking forward to more nuTrek movies!”

LOL”

No, smarta$$, following our exchange about the new Kirk, you mentioned that Pine is singed up for two more. That wasn’t something that I look for, given the current state of new Kirk.

I’m simply not excited to see more dumb Kirk, if they improve him, then I’m more than happy to see Pine in any future movie.

I hope this is not too hard to understand for you guys.

344. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@340. Dave H

I can see why someone dumb like you love STID very much, very fitting :)

345. Dave H - November 13, 2013

@343. Ahmed, I was joking — trying to lighten the mood here with your quote.

For Christ’s sake, why the defecto name calling? I didn’t saying anything negative about you?

346. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@344. Dave H

You should know by now that STID “HATERS” are always negative, right? :)

347. Dave H - November 13, 2013

Ha Ha. OK, dude, no problem.

BTW, for any of you with dirty minds, my joke was meant being refused by women when asking them out…not anything sexual was implied.

348. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 346. Dave H – November 13, 2013

“Ha Ha. OK, dude, no problem.”

OK, my apology for calling you dumb.

349. Dswynne - November 13, 2013

@327 (Ahmed): And you wondered why I included you as the usual bunch of trouble-makers…

Do us all a favor and GO AWAY. I am saying this for your benefit, since STiD seems to have traumatized you. Me? As far as I am concerned, it’s just a movie that could have been so much more, but was entertaining nevertheless. Hopefully, Bad Robot will make a decent film in time for the 50th anniversary in 2016. After all, if the producers of the James Bond films can do better than Quantum of Solace with Skyfall, then perhaps the producers of STiD with the next ‘Trek film…

350. Keachick - November 13, 2013

#325 – I have just watched the Jack Ryan trailer again. Harper (Kevin Costner) says to Jack and his wife, who, I think, has just found out what Jack is actually doing (really dangerous work) – “This is geo-politics, not couples therapy”. I wanted to smack Harper’s face…

Kirk is NOT dumb! Just because someone who is your superior (both in age and work status) turns out to be a treacherous bastard does not mean that you are somehow dumb. It seems that the bright Pike might not have been aware of Marcus’s treachery either.

Ahmed – nobody is twisting your arm to go see any future Star Trek movies, like anyone, in their right mind, would be bothered…duh

351. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

@348 “As far as I am concerned, it’s just a movie that could have been so much more, but was entertaining nevertheless. Hopefully, Bad Robot will make a decent film in time for the 50th anniversary in 2016. After all, if the producers of the James Bond films can do better than Quantum of Solace with Skyfall, then perhaps the producers of STiD with the next ‘Trek film…”

Exactly — that’s what the proper positive attitude should be for those who really liked the first film, but didn’t like the second. Just like in the 1980’s — they batted about .500 (i.e, about half the Trek movies were really good), and fans were much more positive when one came along that they didn’t like as much as the last, and were still excited about the next one from the Bennett team. And nobody was screaming “God-Nooo” when they announced a new Trek film after one that they didn’t like.

352. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@348. Dswynne

“Do us all a favor and GO AWAY. I am saying this for your benefit, since STiD seems to have traumatized you.”

Sorry, Dr. Freud. I’m afraid that I can’t do that :)

But, you are very welcome to GO AWAY, no one is stopping you.

353. crazydaystrom - November 13, 2013

349. Keachick
#325 – I have just watched the Jack Ryan trailer again. Harper (Kevin Costner) says to Jack and his wife, who, I think, has just found out what Jack is actually doing (really dangerous work) – “This is geo-politics, not couples therapy”.

Intentional or unintentional, it’s a great contrast to the similar scene in STID.

I wanted to smack Harper’s face…

Why?

354. K-7 - November 13, 2013

Ahmed, I don’t at all want you to go away like Dsywynne is suggesting. But, guy, he really hit the mark when saying that STID traumatized you.

Your letting the “God-noooooo” thing slip out is a classic symptom of a patient holding in their stress while experience post-traumatic stress disorder.

Let me call myself dumb here for you — to save you the trouble. ;-)

355. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

Ahmed,

What’s up with you mayor up there? CNN’s Anderson Cooper is covering those weird hearings right now.

356. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 353. K-7 – November 13, 2013

“Your letting the “God-noooooo” thing slip out is a classic symptom of a patient holding in their stress while experience post-traumatic stress disorder.”

Let me guess, you are the incarnation of Dr. Freud, right :)

357. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 354. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 13, 2013

“Ahmed,

What’s up with you mayor up there? CNN’s Anderson Cooper is covering those weird hearings right now.”

Nothing much, the mayor was just caught on camera during one of his usual “drunken stupor,” states.

The guy is simply nuts & after being caught on video acting like crazy, not to mention other stuff, he still want to stay in the office !!

Watch The Daily Show, Stewart got some lovely stuff about him

358. DiscoSpock - November 13, 2013

@Ahmed,

As far as Star Trek fandom entertainment value goes, your ““Dear God, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO” thing here is your best and most exciting incident since you and Orci went publicly head-to-head last summer.

Thanks for making me smile on this boring night.

359. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

MJ,

Here are some clips, for your pleasure :)

Rob Ford & Toronto featured on The Daily Show November 4, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WV7YtmHEuw

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford caught on video in a DRUNK rage – mayor HIGH threatening to kill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap7QOlQ009g

The second one is NSFW

360. Ahmed - November 13, 2013

@ 357. DiscoSpock – November 13, 2013

“Thanks for making me smile on this boring night.”

Anytime :)

361. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

289. Ahmed – November 13, 2013

In the next movie, Kirk will be demoted again, actually for the 3rd time, and only after destroying his ship & Earth in the process, he will be promoted to the rank of an admiral !

***

Lol. Sounds like a Futurama episode.

362. dmduncan - November 13, 2013

319. Keachick – November 13, 2013

Kirk had little reason not to trust Admiral Marcus. Why would he? The fact that this Admiral betrayed him (and Starfleet) does not make Kirk stupid, reckless, thick, bad or anything else. He became a victim of Marcus and Khan’s various manipulations, but never gave up, despite being the scapegoat and suffering the harshest of mental and physical brutality, ultimately ending in his death… Frankly, if anyone ever deserved to resurrected in every sense, it was this young Jim Kirk.

***

I think we’re on the same side of this, Keachick. You’ll never find me advising what the Kirk haters do, which is to kill off the character for good and put Spock in charge. All my complaints are actually defenses of the character because I don’t want to see this pattern for a third movie.

And “updating” the character for modern audiences doesn’t mean you have to abuse or make the character look like an impulsive fratboy, as some have called him. In ST.09 I bought it because it was a position he could evolve away from in the next movie. Only in the next movie something else happened instead.

Take Mission Impossible, for example. That show that was sold the same time as Star Trek and was shot right next to Star Trek on Desilu’s lot.

When they brought that franchise back to life, did they make Ethan Hunt look dangerously impulsive? Is that how they updated him, by beating his ass?

Hell no. They turned him into a bada** superspy, and one who was SMART.

So I’m kind of frustrated at what happened to Kirk this time around. If you love and understand the character, what I saw happen in STID was an inexplicably strange way of showing it.

363. TreK_Fan - November 13, 2013

I just saw Thor: The Dark World and that movie’s special effects and storyline far surpassed anything I saw this year. I hope whoever is involved in the next Star Trek film takes notes, this movie combines the right amount of special effects and to storyline, no other scifi film in 2013 to date can compare.

364. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

@362

Valid criticisms, DM.

I am given them the benefit of the doubt they we get a seasoned, more mature Kirk for Trek 2016. So they’d better deliver on that.

365. Buzz Cagney - November 13, 2013

#364 well good luck with Pine delivering that. He’s a decent enough actor and I like him but he doesn’t have a tenth of Shats magnetism. And thats what made Kirk such an attractive character.
I hope Chris can rise to it.

366. Kenji - November 13, 2013

@320

Kea chick, I think that it’s hilarious that Kirk gets his ass handed to him constantly. It makes his unlikeable douchery (eg ‘hello ladies’) and swagger more palatable. I also kind of admire his ability to take a punch and keep going

367. Phil - November 13, 2013

Well, Paramount has a release date!!……for MI-V, that is. December 2015, and Bad Robot has a hand in this, too.

I don’t see Trek 3 before 2017. Hope I’m wrong….

368. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

@365. Shat’s mailed in Kirk since 1987, and his movie Kirk was never even close to as good as his TOS Kirk.. So, while I will grant you that Pine may never be as good as the Shatner-Kirk of 66-69, Pine has already shown that he can completely blow away the lackluster Shatner-Kirk of TOS movie era…Pine can out Kirk the mediocre older Shat-Kirk in his sleep.

I will grant Shat one movie exception — N Meyer was able to get a near TOS-Kirk performance out of Shatner in WOK…for that movie only, Shat shined.

369. Keachick - November 13, 2013

It is clear that the whole Nibiru incident might have been written better, however, given what we were shown, how is Kirk stupid for defending himself against a large creature which he obviously thought was about to attack him and likely mortally wound him, by stunning it? What would any of you have done?

We know why they were there and it was NOT to “spread the Word”, provide the latest weapons hardware, give the folk replicators… or to mine and sneak off with some of the planet’s precious metals, while leaving ecological degradation in their wake. It was to undertake a dangerous, but what Kirk and his senior officers believed to be an altruistic, humanitarian act. In many ways, they had a lot to lose (Kirk did), but if the device worked, for that world and its people a lot to gain.

The other issue is about living with one’s conscience. I think that the TOS TV series showed us that Kirk is a man of conscience and will go against rules to do what he believes is right, what he feels he is able to wake up to and live with, ie himself. This is NOT about whether this or that ST technology is plausible or not, it is about Right action and use of means available. I believe that similar would apply to the other members of his crew, like Dr McCoy.

Marcus and Pike sat light years away in plush offices. Kirk and the Enterprise were at the scene seeing the demise of a world and had a possible technical means to prevent such. With the knowledge of such a device, they could not just sit back and watch a world go ka-boom and not at least try. That would be cowardliness.

Kirk has been virtually criminalized and by many here, ridiculed, for leading his crew in an act of kindness. What really does it say about Starfleet, and indeed, us?

370. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 13, 2013

All,

Captain Kirk in TOS essentially blows his nose with the Prime Directive when he feels like it. He violates it, usually without remark, such as in Miri, Mirror Mirror, and most notably, in, The Return of the Archons, where Kirk gives his interpretation of the Prime Directive that allows him to apply it rather loosely: “…the Prime Directive was intended to apply only to living, growing civilizations and felt it was appropriate to interfere where societies had been enslaved or were in a state of total stagnation.”

So please drop all this holier than thou criticism of a younger Kirk in STID learning his way concerning the Prime Directive. TOS Prime Kirk was just as loose with the PD when it suited him.

371. Aurore - November 14, 2013

“@211. Aurore – November 13, 2013

‘…Or, she’ll find her true love ; Mr. Scott…who might be the one fan-dancing ( exclusively for her ) this time around…’

I really didn’t need that image…”
_________

Fair enough.

Personally, I wouldn’t mind watching Simon Pegg’s character fan dancing ; I saw pictures of Simon Pegg wearing a kilt a few years ago ; he seemed to have nicely-shaped legs…

Context would be everything of course…just as I suppose it was for a scene that’s been described to me about “John Harrison” snapping Carol Marcus’ leg by stepping on her, before crushing her father’s skull (or something of the sort), for instance…
_________

Concerning what I said on ” focus groups ” (@212).

Here is another instance where Mr. Orci made some comments about “audiences” :

510. boborci – March 9, 2013

509. We r not testing this movie for audiences.

(Post 530, as well.).

http://trekmovie.com/2013/03/07/brazil-star-trek-into-darkness-press-screening-reveals-big-spoilers-peter-wellers-character/

372. James - November 14, 2013

@370. MJ
I am poster 215 and I couldn’t agree more with you. In Voyager, Janeway comments that Kirk and co. were like cowboys and said something like ‘he was loose in his interpretation of the prime directive’.

And as I previously mentioned, in the episode ‘The Paradise Syndrome’, it is established that Starfleet will try to prevent the destruction of a civilisation from natural causes.

For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky is a little more complex, but again, he saves a civilisation that is doomed.

373. Oscar - November 14, 2013

On, pals, Abramsverse is not serious stuff. Abrams wanted to parody Star Trek.
Kirk is a jerk. Scottie a clown, Spock a polar mad, Uhura the sweet girl of Spock, Caroll Marcus a striper, klingons a bunch of idiots, Khan…Bueh, he is not Khan
Non sensical and simplistic story. Obsession for the action, continuity holes, gimmicks,puns, cringe worthy dialogs, cartoonish caricature of the original characters they are supposed portraying, spectacle over ideas.
A film aiming at the lowest Common denominator in his pursuit of blockbuster currency.
Sorry, the king is naked.

374. LogicalLeopard - November 14, 2013

264. dmduncan – November 13, 2013

The Cumberbatch casting was a blunder. JJ would never cast Cumberbatch to play Lando Calrissian in Star Wars, but for a franchise that he was never much a fan of it’s suddenly a great idea to cast him as Khan.
***********

I suppose that’s a matter of opinion. If Lando had a new identity manufactured for him, there may have been reason. But there are other factors at play. Changing a black character to a white character in America plays out much differently than changing an Asian character originally played by a Caucasian actor with a good tan into a Caucasian character
played by a Caucasian actor who doesn’t look like he’s seen the sun in some time. I get why people don’t like the casting, and I agree that it was a golden opportunity to actually get an Indian actor to play Khan, but it’s hilariously disturbing to me that some people who complain wouldn’t have batted an eye if JJ would have casted a Hispanic actor to play Khan.

******************
And I understand why Kirk got promoted to captain in ST.09. I don’t understand why he ends up with the ship in STID. THAT is so big it’s what the plot of your movie should actually be showing, i.e., Kirk proves that his saving the earth in the first movie was not a fluke and that he’s not a one hit wonder.

I don’t see that in STID and it was the job of STID to show me that if they want me to believe he deserves to be captain by the end again.

*************************

Well, i think the issue is that proving that Kirk was not a one hit wonder was NOT the primary goal that STID had. It was to further call into question whether or not he was a one hit wonder, and to deal with the actual ramifications of the quick promotion. I think this is a much more interesting study, and by going that route, they produced one of the most profound examinations of Kirk’s character that we’ve seen in Trek. We know Kirk as this confident but capable person who can do no wrong and always wins the day. But they built off of ST09 in a great way with this plot, saying, “You know what? Spock was right. In real life, you don’t work you way out of problems by making out with green colored floozies and losing a little dignity. What happens when you CAN’T make the circumstances change to your liking?” This movie does it in a wonderful, gut-punching way. Marcus just says, “Well, sorry, we’re going to kill you and your entire crew, but if it makes you feel better, nothing you could have done would have stopped it, because we were going to do it anyway.” Now how’s THAT for a Kobayashi Maru? When Kirk says he’s sorry to the crew, man…..I felt it. Very profound. I’d put that right up there with him falling out of his chair when his son died. Great stuff.
**********************

I don’t think that a willingness to sacrifice your life to save the ship, while noble, qualifies you to command the Enterprise. It is, I would say, a necessary but insufficient precondition.

**************************

Very true. And this makes you wonder if the third movie will focus on what you believed STID should have focused on – Kirk proving he’s fit for the chair.

**************************

Now I see that they are humbling Kirk and that doing so is necessary to mature the character, but they still went too fast. After the humbling must come the proof of fitness for THAT particular job. Kirk needs to stand APART as THE man singularly capable of commanding the ship in the things he does.

STID didn’t show that part. It was all consumed with his humbling, and not consumed enough either with his rebirth or proving his competency.

********************************

And like I said, you wonder if they will deal with this in the next movie. You know, the great thing about Abrams&Co is that they ARE responsive, and by responsive, I don’t mean that they take into account all or most of what us fans say, but they did address some fan concerns from the last movie in STID. Bob Orci reads these boards from time to time, which is nothing short of awesome. I don’t know how many other people do the same thing.

However, I will point out somethings about Kirk’s actions and fitness for command. Like you said, dying doesn’t indicate fitness for command, although being willing to sacrifice yourself for the ship could be seen as a precondition for command. He seems like he delegated well, leaving Sulu in charge. By violating Marcus’ orders to bomb Q’onoS, he showed excellent judgement – which is a VERY big bonus. He violated an order by the HEAD OF STARFLEET to execute a man who he PERSONALLY wanted to gain revenge from, because the order was unlawful and could have possibly provoked war with the Klingons. Then he risked his own hide to bring his mentor’s killer to justice. Yeah, well, he punched him a hundred times too, but I think Spock probably left that out of the report this time *LOLOLOL* Plus, the actions against the Vengeance and everything were pretty spiffy too.

So when you add all that up, he did sort of earn the chair. He proved that he has his crew’s interest and the interest of the Federation as a whole above all else, he proved that he can think on his feet and be effective, he proved that (if Spock didn’t file the report *L*) he could put aside his own vendettas and do the right thing instead of the infinitely easier and pleasurable thing. Plus, he saved the Federation from a madman (Nero, War-mongering Marcus) twice in six months. That’s a good enough reason to give him a 5 year mission. On paper, at least. But I’m with you, he still hasn’t proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt. But that’s because he’s young, and he CAN’T prove it yet. All he can prove is that he has potential abound, and that potential is going in the right direction. To use a baseball example, it’s like a prospect. If they’ve got potential, and that potential is progressing in the minor leagues, you can’t possibly find out if they’re going to be a good major league player unless you give them time in the major leagues. This is what they did with Kirk.

375. Danpaine - November 14, 2013

365. Buzz Cagney – November 13, 2013
#364 well good luck with Pine delivering that. He’s a decent enough actor and I like him but he doesn’t have a tenth of Shats magnetism. And thats what made Kirk such an attractive character.
I hope Chris can rise to it.

————————————

Couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve seen Pine in a number of non-Trek roles by now, good movies and you’re right, he’s a decent actor. Decent. To me, he always plays the same character, though, no matter what he’s in. This Means War was a really fun movie, by the way.

376. LogicalLeopard - November 14, 2013

274. Kenji – November 13, 2013

I’m reading about the British navy in the Napoleanic Wars and am quite comfortable with the notion that the Admiralty promotes commanders who they like, not who is the most senior or who tests the best

**********************

Don’t know whether you’re studying this, or reading fiction, but if you like fiction, make sure that you don’t miss the Horatio Hornblower series and the Aubrey/Maturin series by Patrick Obrian. Star Trek was supposed to originally be “Horatio Hornblower in Space” from what I understand. But anyway, two great series. And as for watching the televised versions, I like A&E’s (produced with the BBC, I believed, or vice versa) Hornblower series. And the movie “Master and Commander” is one of the few movies that takes bits and pieces from different novels, mashes them together, changes some plot points, and comes off as a flawless movie that is a great, independant work of it’s own, not wanting to make you gripe and say, “Oh, they changed this or that.”

377. Oscar - November 14, 2013

Logical leopard
I insist, if a cadet saves the world. He is a cadet with a medal. Not captain.
This is ludicrous stuff. And I am sick of ludicrous pseudo explanations.
Is it possible a bit of common sense in this new star trek?
The chain of command is a very serious thing. It is not a joke.
Most important, Spock saves the world, too.
But he is not promoted. Why?
In fact Spock should have been the new captain, he is commander, and Kirk a punished cadet… Where is the logical here? Or maybe he can not be captain because he is vulcan, a kind of racism anti vulcan…Why do they prefer a arrogant, smug and cheater punished cadet over a commander with experience, a senior officer…?
So, why is not promoted Spock?

378. Yanks - November 14, 2013

Califormia is going to tax them self out of the movie business.

See Stargate and any number of other TV series/movies that have lots of special effects.

379. dmduncan - November 14, 2013

374. LogicalLeopard – November 14, 2013

I suppose that’s a matter of opinion. If Lando had a new identity manufactured for him, there may have been reason. But there are other factors at play. Changing a black character to a white character in America plays out much differently than changing an Asian character originally played by a Caucasian actor with a good tan into a Caucasian character played by a Caucasian actor who doesn’t look like he’s seen the sun in some time. I get why people don’t like the casting, and I agree that it was a golden opportunity to actually get an Indian actor to play Khan, but it’s hilariously disturbing to me that some people who complain wouldn’t have batted an eye if JJ would have casted a Hispanic actor to play Khan.

***

You are simplifying an issue that has been covered (overcovered) here in great detail. Is it necessary to go over all of it again? Each point you make has been responded to before exhaustively, including a rather lengthy exposition by me about why casting a new Latino actor to follow Montalban probably would have been the LEAST controversial thing to do, satisfying even Bob’s own concern, EVEN if it continues a foolish 1960’s casting process that deserves to go extinct. I expressed a summary conclusion that I can back up with points that I and others have made that will add up to a block of text longer than the US Constitution.

What’s the point? I thought we were beyond treating the controversy as if it’s brand new and needs to be constantly reargued EVEN if you don’t agree.

It was a blunder driven by JJs whimsicality with somebody else’s favorite franchise, and every time I see the film I laugh out loud when Cumberbatch says “KKKKKhaaan!” like a cat coughing up a a furball.

And fans ought not be told that they have an issue unseeing the Khan they are familiar with in a franchise whose brand DEPENDS on audience familiarity with the brand.

If I buy a can of coke I don’t want to pop it open and find root beer. And when you reboot a franchise (which is a brand) you are rebooting a recipe. Follow the frakkin recipe unless you are like Ron Moore and have a vision that will take a mediocre show and make it great.

“Well, i think the issue is that proving that Kirk was not a one hit wonder was NOT the primary goal that STID had. It was to further call into question whether or not he was a one hit wonder, and to deal with the actual ramifications of the quick promotion. I think this is a much more interesting study, and by going that route, they produced one of the most profound examinations of Kirk’s character that we’ve seen in Trek.”

Here is why that is a problem.

Addressing the criticism of ST.09 that he got promoted too fast by taking his ship away in STID but letting it fall back in his lap by default (he IS the captain again at the end of the movie) is like fixing your headache by hitting yourself in the hand with a hammer so that the throb in your hand makes you forget the pain in your head.

Okay so you’ve acknowledged that fans had a point. Kirk was promoted too fast. So what is the underlying sentiment of that criticism?

Kirk didn’t DESERVE the promotion. They tried to fix what fans said was wrong without understanding the underlying principle.

To soundly address the criticism you have to show that Kirk DESERVES the promotion. Which they didn’t do.

Now Kirk’s apology may have been heartfelt and powerful, but that’s neither here nor there with respect to what they had to do to fix the problem they admitted they created in ST.09.

So they agreed with many fans that Kirk’s promotion in ST.09 was too fast. He didn’t deserve it. The solution was to show that he deserved it. They did not show that he deserved it. Then they put him BACK in charge of the Enterprise at the end in the absence of a movie where he proves that he ought to be the ONE guy who sits in that chair (theres’ NO room for Spock on that chair too, it’s built for ONE guy, hint hint hint)—all of which puts us right back to square one.

See, STID didn’t solve the problem they admitted ST.09 had, it merely distracted our attention away from it.

RIGHT NOW out there in far parts of the world are servicemen and women who not only put their lives at risk for their fellows, they actually DO die to save them.

That doesn’t make a sergeant or lieutenant capable of commanding an aircraft carrier!

Kirk didn’t need to prove that he would sacrifice his life or even put the Federation’s welfare above all else—we sorta got that in ST.09 anyway and that didn’t stop the fan criticism they were acknowledging as valid when they responded to it in STID. So I didn’t need to see that. Kirk’s heroism was never in question to me.

We needed to see him be the sharpest tool in the shed to deserve the chair he sits in ALONE, the guy who becomes the most legendary captain in Starfleet history.

We did not the proof. They didn’t solve the problem they were trying to solve. And again I have to stress that they put Kirk back in charge which to me indicates that they THINK they solved the problem.

Had they kept him out of command by STID’s end then I, like some of you, might now be saying that they intend to prove his competency in the next movie, but it seems to me that they think they prove it in STID.

380. dmduncan - November 14, 2013

we did not the proof = we did not see the proof

381. SkiesSeven - November 14, 2013

@dmduncan

In other words, it would have been better altogether if Kirk’s too-fast promotion was not addressed at all.

And I agree that the approach taken to address the issue only compounded the problem further. Or it was an outright repeat of the same issue from ST09.

I think the approach might have been more successful if Kirk was demoted and NOT re-promoted so easily. Because the re-promotion itself was the main problem.

382. LogicalLeopard - November 14, 2013

379. dmduncan

What’s the point? I thought we were beyond treating the controversy as if it’s brand new and needs to be constantly reargued EVEN if you don’t agree.

******************

You’re right. I should have left it at, “That’s a matter of opinion.” Honestly, the more times I watched STID, the more BC seemed like Khan. Not just like Khan as previously portrayed, with space-yoga moves, etc, but a ticked off, all business Khan. I thought he did a fine job. It’d be completely different if he couldn’t act, but BC can, and he did the best he could with the material he was given.

***********************************
Addressing the criticism of ST.09 that he got promoted too fast by taking his ship away in STID but letting it fall back in his lap by default (he IS the captain again at the end of the movie) is like fixing your headache by hitting yourself in the hand with a hammer so that the throb in your hand makes you forget the pain in your head.

Okay so you’ve acknowledged that fans had a point. Kirk was promoted too fast. So what is the underlying sentiment of that criticism?

Kirk didn’t DESERVE the promotion. They tried to fix what fans said was wrong without understanding the underlying principle.

To soundly address the criticism you have to show that Kirk DESERVES the promotion. Which they didn’t do.

**********************

There’s a difference between “addressing” an issue and “fixing” an issue. Much of the first part of the movie is about them “addressing” the problem, meaning that they said, “Okay, we’re paying attention to what you said, so lets see how Jimmy does….oh, whoops, turns out you all were right, he DIDN”T deserve the ship.” That’s how they addressed the issue. They “fixed” the issue (to some extent) when one takes into account his actions during the mission to Qo’noS and what he does. So, this guy 1) averts war with the Klingon Empire after being ORDERED to take action that could have started a war if ever discovered, 2) Busted up Section 31 (to some extent, perhaps) and 3) saved a shipload of people in the meantime, sacrificing his own life.

Star Trek has demonstrated that the Federation Rank system is pretty much a meritocracy. Its’ not the same as our contemporary militaries, probably because it’s a military/exporation agency. You can get rapid promotions, or you can languish at a rank for years if you show no initiative. Or for other arbitrary, unrevealed reasons. Didn’t LaForge shoot up from Lieutenant JG to Commander, while Data stayed at Lt. Commander forever? I think Worf went slowly too, but finally made Lt JG. Maybe Starfleet promoted Data to that position, and thought that’s all he was good for, a capable second officer or department head, that should never be in command. I won’t even address the Voy ranks.

But back to the movie, it seems like Pike made the point in ST09 that Starfleet was looking for a particular type of Captain. And he indicates that Starfleet has a pretty rapid rate of promotion anyway.

He says: “If you’re half the man your father was, Jim, Starfleet could use you. You could be an officer in four years. You could have your own ship in eight. ”

So that means, that you can become a Captain (if not in rank, in duty) FOUR YEARS after graduating the academy.

The more I look at the whole rank thing, the more I believe that since Starfleet is a primarily explorative agency, with some military applications as well, they promote captains on the basis of whether or not the individual has the ability and traits to captain a starship, which involves 1) dealing with crew, 2) dealing with diplomatic missions, and 3) dealing with threats. If you demonstrate that you can deal with all of those factors, you can be a captain. If not, you’re just a department head, or a worker. Rank may be a better indicator of ability than experience. That 40 year old ensign is walking around with one pip on his shoulder not because he just graduated the academy, but because he can’t be counted on to do much more than an adequate sensor scan. Since he likes exploring, and doing sensor scans, he stays in Starfleet. That Lieutenant Commander in her late twenties is wearing two and a half pips because she can do all of the basics, take initiative, and get other people under her to do their work successfully.

Perhaps the only reason why Captains need “experience” is because they need the opportunities to prove themselves. When you save a planet from being imploded, save the Federation from war, bring a fugitive to justice, expose a clandenstine agency, and risk your life to save your crew within 7 months, well, you’ve kind of proven you belong in the chair. The only thing left now is time to see if he should remain in the chair. Like I said, with a baseball analogy, the only way a prospect can prove he belongs in the major leagues is to play in the major leagues. But the only way he can prove he’s a great baseball player, like a hall of famer, is through time.

383. dmduncan - November 14, 2013

381. SkiesSeven – November 14, 2013

Right, see once you do address it, you risk not actually solving the problem you are addressing. If you address the problem, you gotta solve the problem (not leave it the same or make it worse).

If the plumber comes to fix a dripping sink, he can’t break the pipe and leave water spraying everywhere.

I mean there’s good stuff in STID, like Kirk apologizing, but however good it is it still doesn’t really solve the problem. Yes, it shows humility, which is a necessary step, but there’s a LOT more you gotta do to say you fixed things.

384. TUP - November 14, 2013

269. SkiesSeven – November 13, 2013
I seriously wanted to see Pike back as Captain and Kirk as his first officer, as had been implied in the bar scene. But then an emergency meeting happens, and it’s Godfather-style extermination, with Pike being the prime victim.

Wouldn’t it have been more fitting for Pike to die on the Enterprise? And with Kirk taking over?

****My point exactly. 09 *should* have ended with everyone going their separate ways. Kirk as Lieutenent on the Farragut, Spock as Science Officer on the Enterprise with Pike. Yadda yadda

The opening “mission” of STID should have been the farragut disaster where Kirk took command rather than some meaningless thing we got.

Pike should have saved the Enterprise by going into the radiation-filled warp room. he could have died, thus giving Kirk the most clear example of leadership and sacrifice. On the other hand, Pike wouldnt have to die…it might have been more emotional for Kirk to visit the horribly injured and scarred Pike at the end of the movie, seeing what Pike had really sacrificed, and have that be the impetus for Kirk to become the leader we know.

385. K-7 - November 14, 2013

@378 “See Stargate and any number of other TV series/movies that have lots of special effects.”

Yea, actually, it was the loss or revenue from Stargate back the 2000’s that led to the Great Recession in the U.S.

386. K-7 - November 14, 2013

With all those negative descriptions, I thought you were writing something autobiographical for a moment there….

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
373. Oscar – November 14, 2013
On, pals, Abramsverse is not serious stuff. Abrams wanted to parody Star Trek.
Kirk is a jerk. Scottie a clown, Spock a polar mad, Uhura the sweet girl of Spock, Caroll Marcus a striper, klingons a bunch of idiots, Khan…Bueh, he is not Khan
Non sensical and simplistic story. Obsession for the action, continuity holes, gimmicks,puns, cringe worthy dialogs, cartoonish caricature of the original characters they are supposed portraying, spectacle over ideas.
A film aiming at the lowest Common denominator in his pursuit of blockbuster currency.
Sorry, the king is naked.

387. K-7 - November 14, 2013

@374 “but it’s hilariously disturbing to me that some people who complain wouldn’t have batted an eye if JJ would have casted a Hispanic actor to play Khan.”

A Hispancic played this MAKE BELIEVE CHARACTER before, and that performance was iconic.

Game over.

388. Danpaine - November 14, 2013

383. TUP – November 14, 2013

…it might have been more emotional for Kirk to visit the horribly injured and scarred Pike at the end….

—–

Thus tying it in nicer with the appearance of Pike in TOS, too.

Good thoughts there. Too bad the story didn’t go that way.

389. K-7 - November 14, 2013

@375

“Couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve seen Pine in a number of non-Trek roles by now, good movies and you’re right, he’s a decent actor. Decent. To me, he always plays the same character, though, no matter what he’s in. This Means War was a really fun movie, by the way.”

Well, Pine is certainly not the incredible chameleon that William Shatner is. Shatner can play any role, and immerse himself in the part. No one would ever accuse him as playing the same character in every part (wink-wink x 1000)

390. LogicalLeopard - November 14, 2013

269. SkiesSeven – November 13, 2013
I seriously wanted to see Pike back as Captain and Kirk as his first officer, as had been implied in the bar scene. But then an emergency meeting happens, and it’s Godfather-style extermination, with Pike being the prime victim.

Wouldn’t it have been more fitting for Pike to die on the Enterprise? And with Kirk taking over?

*******************************

As soon as Pike said that they were giving the Enterprise back to him, I knew he was a dead man. *L* Just through the common sense logic that Kirk appeared from the previews to be Captain, and that someone was likely to die in the movie, resulting in the “funeral” (really a memorial) scene. But I agree, crawling across the floor and being shot in the butt is not a dignified death worthy of Pike. Yes, I know he wasn’t shot in the butt, but you get the idea.

However, that’s actually a good reason to have him die in such an undignified manner, because it shows how pointless and undignified death can be. Not every hero gets a heros death, which makes it seem more like a cheat and sticks in your craw worse.

**********************************
383. TUP – November 14, 2013

****My point exactly. 09 *should* have ended with everyone going their separate ways. Kirk as Lieutenent on the Farragut, Spock as Science Officer on the Enterprise with Pike. Yadda yadda

The opening “mission” of STID should have been the farragut disaster where Kirk took command rather than some meaningless thing we got.

Pike should have saved the Enterprise by going into the radiation-filled warp room. he could have died, thus giving Kirk the most clear example of leadership and sacrifice. On the other hand, Pike wouldnt have to die…it might have been more emotional for Kirk to visit the horribly injured and scarred Pike at the end of the movie, seeing what Pike had really sacrificed, and have that be the impetus for Kirk to become the leader we know.

****************************

I like the Pike death idea, but I think Kirk learns more about leadership in this manner, not the manner you described. I think it boils back to what Spock said – it’s more eduational to face the no-win scenario and “lose” than to fight the no-win scenario and have Pike bail you out by dying himself. That will teach you something, but not as much as you’d learn by sitting there in Kirk’s position, knowing that death is imminent. That SUCKED emotionally, just watching it. Can you imagine being in such a situation? Which brings it back to Pike: Death may seem heroic at times, but it’s still death, and death sucks. Spock’s description of Pike’s emotions hits it right on the head.

As for Kirk on the Farragut, that would have been equally convoluted, because you’d have to explain the cast reuinion, spending precious movie time with additional scenes or weird dialogue like, “Well, It’s hard to believe that it’s been ___ years since all of us saved Earth. I”ve been on the Farragut, and got promoted pretty quickly, and now they’re giving me the Enterprise.” You’ll still have to deal with the fact that Kirk would have to be promoted OVER Spock, and you’ll have to deal with WHY he was promoted over Spock. Which means he would have to do something big, or Spock would have to do something bad. And what can Kirk do bigger than saving Earth?

Perhaps the best way to have taken care of the problem was to put a gap between the Academy and the Vulcan mission. If Spock is a Lieutenant instructor at the Academy, and Uhura is a recruit, and you don’t see ANY of the other characters, maybe by the time the Vulcan mission comes about, you’d have Kirk as a Commander and Second Officer of the Enterprise, Spock as First Officer, and all the rest where they are.

This would have been the best way, but I don’t know if you could have come up with a movie as fun, or as emotionally resonant as ST09 using that formula.

391. Oscar - November 14, 2013

I quote Josh Whedon
This is a sad,sad reflection on our times when people must feed off the carcasses of beloved stories from their youth only because they can’t think of an original idea of their own.
This is the problem with this new ST and its creators….feed off the carcasses of beloved stories…

392. LogicalLeopard - November 14, 2013

390. Oscar – November 14, 2013
I quote Josh Whedon
This is a sad,sad reflection on our times when people must feed off the carcasses of beloved stories from their youth only because they can’t think of an original idea of their own.
This is the problem with this new ST and its creators….feed off the carcasses of beloved stories…

*************************

Well, the only problem with that statement is that many fans wanted to see a Khan redux. Many fans enjoyed the Khan redux. And many didn’t. It’s a risk, but when your entire movie premise is set on rebooting a franchise by an alternate timeline, you’re going to expect to rehash old stories. This is because all of those old characters are running around, and some fans will be interested in what happened to them.

It’s a little diferent than what, say, Joss Whedon did when he was writing Astonishing X-Men. It wasn’t a reboot, so he was free to go forward, but even he lifted a scene straight out of Chris Claremont’s X-Men during a flashback scene. It had to be referenced for continuity purposes.

393. TUP - November 14, 2013

@389

I can agree that Kirk directly facing death was clearly the most obvious way for him to face it. And as it happened, it was very emotional. But they undid it so quickly. And it seemed more about Spock’s development than Kirk’s.

Its one thing for your decisions to risk your own life, but if Pike was the one making the sacrifice because HE was the Captain, not Kirk, I think the lesson is as important. Plus, if they then show the Farragut disaster at the beginning of STID, it directly links…show Kirk rising to the occasion and willingly sacrificing himself, except ofcourse, he doesnt die, but was willing to.

I dont think it would be convoluted to get them together. Remember, they already played the “destiny” card. The universe wants to right itself.

Spock should be second officer on the Enterprise under Pike (with a female “number one”). Presumably Uhura would want to be on Enterprise with Spock. Chekov shouldn’t even exist in these movies yet. Sulu could stay on Enterprise. Bones could serve on the Farragut.

There are creative ways to do it. If the Farragut is destroyed, Kirk is at Starfleet recuperating. He’s unassigned. Pike would want him.

As for Kirk skipping over Spock, thats the writers fault. It was wrong in 09. So many opportunities for better creative were missed.

394. Oscar - November 14, 2013

391.
True. This people criticized Berman because ,beh, «you know, with Berman always the same stuff» and now they applaud the same stuff but more ludicrous with Abrams. ..

395. Keachick - November 14, 2013

“You know what? Spock was right. In real life, you don’t work you way out of problems by making out with green colored floozies and losing a little dignity. What happens when you CAN’T make the circumstances change to your liking?” This movie does it in a wonderful, gut-punching way.”

What a ridiculous, trashy, rude comment to make about someone, albeit a fictional character. Yes, Kirk did receive a horrendous amount of gut-punching/kicking and “wonderful” is not the word I would describe it as being.

Since when does being kicked and punched over and over, as Kirk was in both movies – first by Nero and then by Khan – is about humbling a person? The only thing that it is likely to do is make the person very sore and very angry. What was so un-humble in Kirk’s behaviour in volunteering to go on a mission to find Harrison? It was Marcus who gave him orders to kill Harrison by using these new long range torpedoes which Klingon sensors could not detect, until it was too late. Kirk knew what he was capable of doing and so did Marcus. Kirk wanted to help, bring justice. Should he have just sat on his haunches, saying nothing, volunteering nothing? The truth is that Admiral Marcus was afraid of Kirk and wanted him “out of the way”. This was not because of Kirk’s supposed lack of humility or conceit. Indeed, it was the very opposite…

Kirk was no more, no less humble than the next person and that includes Spock. He acted with the best of intentions and he had help doing just that. It seems that, in every iteration, it is Spock who can do no wrong.

An example is the scene where Kirk temporarily relinquishes command to Spock (which is his right as captain, btw). All Spock did was chide Kirk about what he can’t do, shouldn’t do, but Spock offered nothing positive in the way of a solution to the crisis they faced. Kirk was berated twice in so many minutes, first by his superior officer, Marcus and then by his first officer, Spock.

396. K-7 - November 14, 2013

Oscar,, you are such a constant breath of negativity here. Get some therapy, or take some Prozac, and stop being such a negative-Nellie little whinier.

Enough of your tantrums, please. We get it now — you hate most everything about nuTrek — message received. Move on…

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
394. Oscar – November 14, 2013
391.
True. This people criticized Berman because ,beh, «you know, with Berman always the same stuff» and now they applaud the same stuff but more ludicrous with Abrams. ..

397. Red Shirt Diaries - November 14, 2013

Probably just a coincidence, but just a couple of weeks ago, Cygnus X-1 says he will stop the negative nuTrek posts, and then he goes away….and now, this Oscar person who I have never seen post here before shows up with the same sorts of negative nuTrek comments….

???

398. Keachick - November 14, 2013

What does “humility” mean?

“It’s being wise enough to realize that you don’t know everything, and acting accordingly.”

“contrary to popular belief, its not thinking “less” of yourself (as mentioned in some of the other answers) and it most certainly isn’t “being poor”.
it is actually to know who you are, and where you really stand. for example, Jesus, while being God, was still the example of humility while on earth. but He never “thought less” of Himself.
As mentioned in the other answers, to be humble you must not be boastful, proud or arrogant. A humble person knows they are not above anyone else, and treats everyone with equal respect and due honor”

I think that Jim Kirk embodies more of these qualities than not. I am actually starting to believe that it may be his innate humility and goodness that has got him into trouble. I find it hard to reconcile the reaction of Pike and Starfleet to what Kirk and co. did in saving the primitive Nibiru people from destruction. Were they angry because it actually worked, because he (Kirk), along with Bones, Spock, Sulu and Uhura were daring enough to attempt such a feat? Humility is not about lacking courage. The odds of a successful outcome have rarely been in Kirk’s favour, in any universe, but he goes ahead anyway, because needs must…

Take a look at the people who have done the harshest physical beating down on Kirk in these last two movies – Nero – an aggrieved, crazy Romulan out for revenge and Khan – a power crazy genetically engineered person possessing much physical and mental strength and then we have Admiral Marcus – soul destroyer. All of these people lack genuine humility and grace. They have forgotten what it is like to feel genuinely good about themselves or anybody else. However it has been done, what goodness of spirit has all but been extinguished. Someone like Jim Kirk scares the hell out of them, because of his basic good, courageous nature.

399. Colin - November 14, 2013

When the Classic Kirk violated the Prime Directive, he took responsibility for his actions and arranged for aid from the Federation to help a planet’s population to form a new society. He did this on Miri’s World, on Beta III, and Gamma Trianguli VI. In “Q2″, he was credited with saving two or three civilizations.

400. Danpaine - November 14, 2013

389. K-7 – November 14, 2013

No one would ever accuse him as playing the same character in every part (wink-wink x 1000)

—————————
Kudos.

Next thing you’re going to try to sell me is that TJ Hooker and Capt. Kirk were one in the same, right? C’mon!

401. LogicalLeopard - November 14, 2013

377. Oscar – November 14, 2013
Logical leopard
I insist, if a cadet saves the world. He is a cadet with a medal. Not captain.
This is ludicrous stuff. And I am sick of ludicrous pseudo explanations.
Is it possible a bit of common sense in this new star trek?
The chain of command is a very serious thing. It is not a joke.
Most important, Spock saves the world, too.
But he is not promoted. Why?
In fact Spock should have been the new captain, he is commander, and Kirk a punished cadet… Where is the logical here? Or maybe he can not be captain because he is vulcan, a kind of racism anti vulcan…Why do they prefer a arrogant, smug and cheater punished cadet over a commander with experience, a senior officer…?
So, why is not promoted Spock?

************************

I will concede that the promotion of Kirk from cadet to Captain was abrupt, and required more thought and explanation than should be. It should have been handled better than it was. Why wasn’t Spock promoted? Or anyone else. They all had a hand in it, certainly Sulu & Spock deserved promotions for their away mission to Vulcan, and Scotty for saving the ship, but well, the easy answer is that only Kirk needed to be promoted to Captain. The in-universe explanation is probably the same reason why LaForge gets promoted past Data when he was two steps below him originally.

402. Ahmed - November 14, 2013

@399. Colin

” In “Q2″, he was credited with saving two or three civilizations.”

Original Kirk never met Q, also, “Q2″ is an episode from Star Trek: Voyager.

403. LogicalLeopard - November 14, 2013

387. K-7 – November 14, 2013
@374 “but it’s hilariously disturbing to me that some people who complain wouldn’t have batted an eye if JJ would have casted a Hispanic actor to play Khan.”

A Hispancic played this MAKE BELIEVE CHARACTER before, and that performance was iconic.

Game over.

****************

We’ve been down this road before, like dmduncan said. First of all, the actor was of European descent (Botn to two parents from Spain in Mexico). So really, he’s probably about as white as BC, just with a better tan. I get what you’re saying that it’s an iconic portrayal, and you pay homage through the casting, but really….that’s like getting a white guy to play Uncle Tom, a black character, because some white guy first played the role iconically….in blackface.

404. Oscar - November 14, 2013

396.K 7
Oh, no, pal, I am a constant breath of realism. If the king is naked, i say the king is naked…that is all. And if a guy says Kirk was promoted because he saves the world i want to remember Spock saved the world,too,and he was not promoted… criticism, hard analisis, not resignation is in the heart of ST. Applause is a easy thing.

405. K-7 - November 14, 2013

No, not at all. This is a make believe character in a science fiction story. There was no real Khan from India, and a Hispanic played him the last time.

It’s a make believe universe, not based on real person.

Starbuck became female in BSG — same deal.

You are mixing apples and oranges. You are getting all worked up for no reason here.

406. Red Shirt Diaries - November 14, 2013

My goodness, I am so sick of people here completely ignoring the rather large population of Hispanic Punjabi Sikhs around the world. Here is one example below in an article on this topic.

For once and for all, you folks who keep insisting that Khan cannot be an Hispanic Punjabi Sikh are being completely ignorant of an entire population here. It’s racially uncomfortable to have to read some of these posts here that arbitrarily assume all Punjabi Sikhs are racially Indian — nothing could be further from the truth. Please cease these insulting and ignorant posts on this topic.

_____________________________

California’s Punjabi Mexican Americans

Ethnic choices made by the descendants of Punjabi pioneers and their Mexican wives

By Karen Leonard, Professor of Anthropology at the University of California at Irvine.
(Originally published in The World & I, vol. 4(5), May 1989, pp. 612-623.)
(This article appeared in the May 1989 issue and is reprinted with permission from The World & I, a publication of The Washington Times Corporation, copyright (c) 1989.)

The end of colonial rule in India and the birth of two new nations-India and Pakistan-was celebrated in California in 1947 by immigrant men from India’s Punjab province. Their wives and children celebrated with them. With few exceptions, these wives were of Mexican ancestry and their children were variously called “Mexican Hindus,” an American misnomer for people from India. In a photo taken during the 1947 celebrations in the northern California farm town of Yuba City, all the wives of the “Hindus” are of Mexican descent, save two Anglo women and one woman from India.

There were celebrations in Yuba City in 1988. Too; the Sikh Parade (November 6) and the Old-Timers’ Reunion Christmas Dance (November !2). Descendants of the Punjabi- Mexicans might attend either or both of these events—the Sikh Parade, because most of the Punjabi pioneers were Sikhs, and the annual Christmas dance, because it began as a reunion for descendants of the Punjabi pioneers. Men from India’s Punjab province came to California chiefly between 1900 and 1917; after that, immigration practices and laws discriminated against Asians and legal entry was all but impossible. Some 85 percent of the men who came during those years were Sikhs, 13 percent were Muslims, and only 2 percent were really Hindus.

Marriages between Punjabis and Mexicans began in the second decade of the twentieth century. Most descendants of these Punjabi-Mexican couples continue to refer to themselves as Hindus, and they are very proud of their Punjabi background. Yet most descendants are Catholic, and while most are bilingual, they speak English and Spanish, not Punjabi. An understanding of the ethnic choices made by the Punjabi-Mexican descendants requires an excursion into the history of their community.

407. LogicalLeopard - November 14, 2013

What a ridiculous, trashy, rude comment to make about someone, albeit a fictional character. Yes, Kirk did receive a horrendous amount of gut-punching/kicking and “wonderful” is not the word I would describe it as being.

*********************

Ridiculous, trashy, and rude? I’ll accept the second true, but the not the first, because it was absolutely correct. That’s exactly what Kirk did – behave in a trashy and rude way to overcome an obstacle by 1) making out with a green colored floozy, Gaila, to manipulate her into helping him fix the test. I admit, floozy is harsh, and maybe “species-ist”, considering she’s Orion. I say that he had to lose a little dignity because (in deleted scenes) he went to apologize…..to the wrong woman.

I didn’t mean physically kicked, I meant emotionally kicked and gutpunched. As far as “wonderful,” I mean as in terms of a viewer (me) getting the opportunity to watch Kirk go through the paces and be almost absolutely broken as a character, in a way we’ve probably seen twice – Spock’s “death” and David’s death. It was wonderfully plotted, wonderfully acted, but make no mistake, it was reaaaaaaaallly “horrible” to watch. I mean, when Kirk turns around and says I’m sorry, you really feel just awful looking at it, because he had so much potential, and he did the right thing with Khan, and then boom, it’s all for nothing. It’s like the Kobayashi Maru in “real life.” And don’t make me start on the death scene. When he says he’s scared, I was all misty in the movie theatre. I’m glad they revived him, or I would have probably straight out bawled.

**********************
Since when does being kicked and punched over and over, as Kirk was in both movies – first by Nero and then by Khan – is about humbling a person? The only thing that it is likely to do is make the person very sore and very angry. What was so un-humble in Kirk’s behaviour in volunteering to go on a mission to find Harrison? It was Marcus who gave him orders to kill Harrison by using these new long range torpedoes which Klingon sensors could not detect, until it was too late. Kirk knew what he was capable of doing and so did Marcus. Kirk wanted to help, bring justice. Should he have just sat on his haunches, saying nothing, volunteering nothing? The truth is that Admiral Marcus was afraid of Kirk and wanted him “out of the way”. This was not because of Kirk’s supposed lack of humility or conceit. Indeed, it was the very opposite…

*****************
I think the humbling part comes in when he says “I’m sorry”, at the realization that everything he did still wasn’t going to be able to save his crew.
***********************

Kirk was no more, no less humble than the next person and that includes Spock. He acted with the best of intentions and he had help doing just that. It seems that, in every iteration, it is Spock who can do no wrong.

******************

I’m going to say that Kirk wasn’t a very humble person, given his smug attitude on the Kobayashi Maru, and his arrogant attitude regarding the Prime Directive.

408. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 14, 2013

You gotta love the passion of some of these people here who are so insistent that “their race” be glorified as the top mass murder eugenics warrior the world has ever seen.

I’d bet Germans would love it if non-Germans started getting Hitler roles in movies so as to alleviate some of their societal burden…bring on the Phillipino actor playing Adolph Hitler. LOL

409. K-7 - November 14, 2013

:-)) Great point!!!

************************************************
407. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 14, 2013
You gotta love the passion of some of these people here who are so insistent that “their race” be glorified as the top mass murder eugenics warrior the world has ever seen.

I’d bet Germans would love it if non-Germans started getting Hitler roles in movies so as to alleviate some of their societal burden…bring on the Phillipino actor playing Adolph Hitler. LOL

410. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 14, 2013

@405 “For once and for all, you folks who keep insisting that Khan cannot be an Hispanic Punjabi Sikh are being completely ignorant of an entire population here. It’s racially uncomfortable to have to read some of these posts here that arbitrarily assume all Punjabi Sikhs are racially Indian — nothing could be further from the truth. Please cease these insulting and ignorant posts on this topic.”

Wow, this should finally explain the Khan – Montelban race issue to everyone’s satisfaction. This tells me that Khan was most likely half Indian and half Mexican. So, to be accurate, he could have been played by either an Indian or a Mexican, but not by a lily white person.

Thanks for closing this long-running argument out. This settles it.

411. Keachick - November 14, 2013

“behave in a trashy and rude way to overcome an obstacle by 1) making out with a green colored floozy, Gaila, to manipulate her into helping him fix the test. I admit, floozy is harsh, and maybe “species-ist”, considering she’s Orion. I say that he had to lose a little dignity because (in deleted scenes) he went to apologize…..to the wrong woman.”

That was NOT in the Director’s Final Cut. It was part of a *DELETED scene. Scenes are deleted for a reason. I do not accept any deleted scene as being part of the actual story told in a movie. Is it any wonder that the producers have chosen not to put deleted scenes on any of the Blu-ray/DVD discs? I am thankful that they have not, because it cuts down on the bs like what you have written above.

Yes – “floozie” is disrespectful and what little we do have of Kirk in his relationships with other women, he is never heard being rude towards or about a woman, however, he was disrespected by none other than Carol Marcus.

Kirk was being deliberately playful and smug – that was to call out the Kobiyashi Maru simulation test for the bullshit that it was! Anyone can pretend smugness…

* Many scenes are shot, which do not make the final cut. They are often variations or experiments which are found not to work properly in the final analysis. Sometimes it is unclear as to why some might be cut but it is still the director’s call. I think the only reason we got to see those particular deleted scenes is because of the very fine Pine acting. As for Jim Kirk, he was NOT playing Jim Kirk. Lord only knows who the writers thought they were writing about…

412. Garak's Pride - November 14, 2013

Re: MJ

“Wow, this should finally explain the Khan – Montelban race issue to everyone’s satisfaction. This tells me that Khan was most likely half Indian and half Mexican. So, to be accurate, he could have been played by either an Indian or a Mexican, but not by a lily white person. Thanks for closing this long-running argument out. This settles it.”

MJ, Red Shirt, this new information does indeed put this issue to rest, finally.

The obvious takeaway from this is that BC was miscast as Khan — they should have found either and Indian actor or a Mexican actor; either of those races is a good fit for Khan.

413. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 14, 2013

All,

Sounds like we finally have a consensus emerging here on the Khan race issue.

See, when we work at it, we can reason things out and come to agreement on some topics here.

414. Keachick - November 14, 2013

Well, STID’s Khan had not seen sun in 300 years. Any wonder he has a lily white complexion… Khan stuff is soooo boring….

415. K-7 - November 14, 2013

@412. By your logic, he probably has severe erectile dysfunction as well. Kind of hard to get it up after having it frozen for 300 years.

No wonder he was so mad all of the time. ;-)

416. Dave H - November 14, 2013

Cool, finally a logical explanation for the whole Khan race thing. We’ve all been debating about this for months. Good to have some closure here at last.

417. Phil - November 14, 2013

@413. It only took six months! :-)

418. K-7 - November 14, 2013

“Probably just a coincidence, but just a couple of weeks ago, Cygnus X-1 says he will stop the negative nuTrek posts, and then goes away….and now, this Oscar person who I have never seen post here before shows up with the same sorts of comments….”

Yes, I am sure this is just a coincidence. ;-)

419. Ahmed - November 14, 2013

J.J. Abrams poses with R2-D2

https://twitter.com/bad_robot/status/401077191087095808

The Force is strong with this one :)

420. DiscoSpock - November 14, 2013

Glad to see the Khan race thing finally resolved, after six months, as Phil noted. Hey, it takes time to age a fine wine. :-)

Well done, everyone!

421. Commodore Kor'Tar - November 14, 2013

I think a shoestring budget just might be a refreshing change of pace. It may make the writers focus on the story telling instead of copying what we have seen and heard before wrapped in a SFX envelope.

422. Keachick - November 14, 2013

#415 K-7 Were you referring to my post at #414 (on my screen)? I think the numbering may be askew…

Emerging from being in cryostasis for a very long time is uncharted territory. I would think that any number of normal bodily functions would need to be relearned by the body and its owner. The life processes have been brought to a virtual standstill for a very long time, which also means that aging would also have been slowed down as well, but not stopped.

That is what having that component in the blood is about. It is probably has some kind of bio anti-freeze agent, as well as those regenerative factors that Dr McCoy discovered. Otherwise, no one would be able to survive longterm cryogenics as Khan has done, in both universes, along with his other crew in the prime universe.

For the very sick girl, whose life processes were slowing because of disease, but recent in nature compared to the 250/300 years, Khan’s blood component could effect an almost magical like cure. Same with Jim Kirk. Unfortunately, not so for Pike, because his body (unless he was put into cryostasis which I doubt happened) was too decayed for the blood component to be at all effective. It is not a magic cure all, stopper of all death. It is all dependent on all other conditions being right, which, more often than not, is simply not a reality.

423. Dr. Cheis - November 14, 2013

I’m sure even a reduced budget will be the envy of anybody who worked on Treks 1 through 10.

424. Keachick - November 14, 2013

Chris Pine is apparently a 23 year old woman from Iceland. He seems to like them young – 10 years younger…hmmm? She is very pretty and she is the one seen smoking, as the couple go sightseeing in the streets of Paris. What is with all this smoking? None of the photos show Chris smoking though – perhaps there is hope yet.

Chris is of course unshaven and his hair is quite long – the longest I have seen it. It looks a bit thick and unruly on top, but is a nice warm brown shade. I think he has this colour for the movie he is still working on in England. Kinda cool – I am getting sick of the short hair look on men. A man’s hair can look just as good longer.

425. Keachick - November 14, 2013

edit – “…is apparently DATING a…” UGH

426. MJ (The Original). - November 14, 2013

Keachick,

I don’t want to jump to conclusions, but they look like they are in love. These are not your typical “famous guy with trophy girl” photos. This looks real to me.

427. Red Dead Ryan - November 14, 2013

Good to see that Red Shirt Diaries has provided proof once and for all that there are indeed non-Indian Sikhs. But there can be white Sikhs as well, though not as common.

In fact, I once passed by a Sikh who had white skin, and a red beard. He clearly was Caucasian, either of Irish or Scandinavian descent. It was a bit weird for a moment, but I remembered that Sikh is a religion, not a race.

Also, this Oscar “The Grouch” needs to take his garbage comments back from whence he came……the trash can on Sesame Street.

428. Colin - November 14, 2013

Ahmed,

From the episode “Q2″,

“Though it was a blatant violation of the Prime Directive, Kirk saved the Pelosians from extinction, just as he had the Baezians and the Chenari many years earlier.”

429. Red Shirt Diaries - November 14, 2013

@427

Agreed, Read Deac. But the fact the Montelban could credibly play Khan given that there were many half Indian -half Hispanic kids who would have matured into their 40’s in the 1990’s (when Khan rose to the power), proves the case once and for all for Montelban-Khan.

That was my primary point.

430. Red Shirt Diaries - November 14, 2013

“Red Dead”

sorry, typing too fast here.

431. Red Dead Ryan - November 14, 2013

Red Shirt Diaries,

Oh, I absolutely agree with you. When it comes to Khan, it isn’t necessarily about having to hire an Indian actor. Ricardo Montalban proves that perfectly. He was Hispanic, but was able to portray a superman right on the money.

My point was that, at least in my experience, Sikhs can come from all races, including Caucasian, therefore rendering the whole “whitewashing” accusation moot. Now, you could argue that, as an actor, Benedict Cumberbatch wasn’t the right guy, but you can’t really play the race card here.

And we are soon going to get an explanation on Khan’s change of appearance anyway in the upcoming comics.

432. Red Dead Ryan - November 14, 2013

Oh I see. RSD was making the case that Khan, during TOS and TWOK, is a Mexican Sikh. It’s going to be even more interesting how the “Khan” comics explain the change in appearance.

433. Red Shirt Diaries - November 14, 2013

Red Dead,

What I am really saying, is that based on historical records, a lot of Punjabi Sikhs (especially men) migrated to Mexico in the late 40’s and early fifties. In this period, many of these men married Mexicans.

Given this, a completely reasonable scenario would be that for one of this mixed marriage couples, the husband got homesick, and he and his Mexican wife move back to India. I would imagine this was fairly common given what those historical reports I found covered.

So then, this mixed couple has a son in the mid-50’s in Punjab, Khan Noonian Singh. Born and raised in India, but half Mexican by his mother — which again, the historical accounts of the substantial Punjab diaspora to Mexico and elsewhere fully support.

Thus, this is why either a Mexican or an Indian can play Khan in Star Trek — and it’s fully consistent with Montelban being cast for Khan originally.

434. Red Dead Ryan - November 14, 2013

#433.

Ah, makes sense to me! Though some will remain steadfast in their belief that Khan is a full-blooded Indian from India. :-)

BTW, you did a nice job with your research!

435. dmduncan - November 14, 2013

431. Red Dead Ryan – November 14

My point was that, at least in my experience, Sikhs can come from all races, including Caucasian, therefore rendering the whole “whitewashing” accusation moot. Now, you could argue that, as an actor, Benedict Cumberbatch wasn’t the right guy, but you can’t really play the race card here.

***

Oh yes you can. That Sikhs can come from all races because Sikhism is a religion was never a question, it wasn’t fueling any anti-Cumberbatch argument I ever made, and therefore it was never relevant towards my criticism of his selection.

You don’t pick somebody at the margins of a group to reflect the constituion of the group. That’s how you try to hide your own racism, expecially when the margins always look more like your own race.

That recalls old racist America where more white looking black people tried to succeed by hiding their true ethnicity because the more you looked like white folk the better you did. These were conditions imposed on those black people—unwritten “rules” they understood the presence of and had to abide by to get ahead in a segregated America.

I don’t care what anyone finds, I’m not excusing that BS in Star Trek when I find it.

Look guys, do you realize that they (and by “they” I mean whoever is in charge of Star Trek, now or in the future) can do any thing they want and you will bust your butts trying to make it fit into canon no matter what they do? You will do the work for them. If they come out with a sequel where Khan is a woman and give no explanation for it, YOU guys will tie a tourniquet around your balls trying to explain it so it fits into canon.

You ever ask yourselves why you are willing to do that?

436. Red Shirt Diaries - November 14, 2013

DM Duncan and Red Dead Ryan,

Here is what we knew about Khan from canon before STID:

1. He was a Punjabi Sikh from India (maybe Pakistan).

2. He had a racial appearance that suggested that one of his parents was Hispanic.

My scenario fully covers both of these known pieces of information.

And it also proves that BC in STID was miscast. No way that he should have been lily white. Other an Hispanic or an Indian/Pakistani should have been playing him.

437. dmduncan - November 14, 2013

Well he was definitely miscast but I don’t have to do research to figure out why.

Somebody I know who is not a fan of Star Trek wanted to watch Space Seed after STID to learn more about Khan. First question I got asked: How come Khan doesn’t look anything like did in Space Seed?

I think all I said was “Yeaaaah well….”

438. Red Dead Ryan - November 14, 2013

Sure — I agree that it would have been better had Khan been cast with a non-white actor instead of Benedict Cumberbatch (who I thought was good in the role, but obviously didn’t look like Khan) but it isn’t a big deal with me.

If they had made Khan a woman — well, that would have been absolutely silly. Although a female superhuman with the same abilities as Khan would be interesting.

And I do agree that Khan was most likely from Pakistan or Kashmir based on what we know about those countries’ warrior cultures versus India more laid back society.

439. dswynne1 - November 14, 2013

To all, in regards to the appearance of Khan: Check out the IDW comic about the rise and fall of Khan. The book clearly states that Khan looked Indian (i.e. South Asian), even as an explanation will be made as the story unfolds.

Personally, STiD would have worked better had BC played the role of Joachim, and still had the same plot of STiD. In fact, considering how loyal Joachim was to Khan in TWOK, Joachim trying to get revenge against Starfleet would have made perfect sense, especially if Khan had been killed by Marcus.

440. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 14, 2013

Comics aren’t canon, no matter how much Bob wants them to be.

I don’t respect the comics. Put it in a legitimate adult Star Trek novel, and then I will at least consider it.

“The line must be drawn…HERE”

PS: In any case, if Orci puts in the comics that he looks Indian, then he is obviously talking about Montelbahn-Khan anyway from TOS.

441. Bill Peters - November 14, 2013

Guys the hole Khan Issue was that the Producers Including Bob Orci Decided on Khan they deiced they couldn’t have someone who looks Arab or Indian play him cause of the fact they felt it would play into the Stereotype all ready Existing with in the US, UK and Western Europe that links people from those areas as having links to Terrorism, Yes it doesn’t make seance when you look at it because of a Name that we might associate with a Ethnicity but it was a Calculated decision not to play into that Stereotype by the Producers, in the end I think If Gene R was here he would agree with that Decission sence he wasn’t up for pushing Stereotypes in TOS or TNG when he was Alive.

.

442. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 14, 2013

“they felt it would play into the Stereotype all ready Existing with in the US, UK and Western Europe that links people from those areas as having links to Terrorism”

This is the same kind of Hollywood bullshit that gave us a Mandarin in IM3 that morphed into Benny Hill.

Hindsight being 20-20, the Supreme Court had way to much to develop the STID “screenplay by committee”. They over-thought so much in the movie (which I still like by the way), and this is a prime example of that.

Just plain dumbass — that is what I have to say about Khan being a white Brit so that Orci could pretend he’s doing some great affirmative action work for the worldwide terrorist community.

Only in Hollywood!

443. K-7 - November 14, 2013

Bill, MJ,

That’s like making a movie on slavery in the South, but deciding to show a white slave family so as not to stereotype African Americans. It doesn’t make any sense.

And if that is really true, then why did they even negotiate first with Benecio Del Toro before moving to BC? Or Jordi Mollla or that other Hispanic guy. Three out of the four people up for the part were Hispanic, and BC seemed to come in only after they could not get a deal done with Del Toro.

In retrospect, Del Toro would have been awesome.

444. K-7 - November 15, 2013

“The sequel to the successful reboot of Star Trek has been a long-in-development priority for Paramount and director J.J. Abrams, and the Enterprise is currently scheduled to lift off again this January, when shooting on the untitled next installment will begin. Sadly, there’s one high-profile star whom Abrams didn’t manage to beam up: Benicio Del Toro, who entered into talks last month to play the sequel’s new villain. Insiders tell Vulture that the deal actually went asunder last Wednesday after parties couldn’t come to terms over monetary issues.”

445. K-7 - November 15, 2013

“The sequel to the successful reboot of Star Trek has been a long-in-development priority for Paramount and director J.J. Abrams, and the Enterprise is currently scheduled to lift off again this January, when shooting on the untitled next installment will begin. Sadly, there’s one high-profile star whom Abrams didn’t manage to beam up: Benicio Del Toro, who entered into talks last month to play the sequel’s new villain. Insiders tell Vulture that the deal actually went asunder last Wednesday after parties couldn’t come to terms over monetary issues.”

446. Dave H - November 15, 2013

All

I’ve never believed that ” we don’t want to stereotype terrorists” argument anyway.

It’s simply face-saving logic to cover their assess for being down to the wire on casting, and having to go with BC because Del Toro cost too much, and the others guys weren’t that great to begin with.

Orci may have “gone OJ” and actually convinced himself that this was what they are doing, but I would be a months salary that Del Toro had the inside track on this, and this was just about money.

447. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 15, 2013

@446. Yea.

You know I’ve said this before, I love Bob and Supreme Court, but these guys are the kings of procrastinators in the world of genre movies.

It’s six months after the movie now, and they are all still futzing around with no real news.

Same old story….

:-(

448. Red Shirt Diaries - November 15, 2013

“I’ve never believed that ” we don’t want to stereotype terrorists” argument anyway.”

Agreed — that’s complete self-delusional justification bullshit. The part was in Del Toro’s lap first — that’s common knowledge.

449. K-7 - November 15, 2013

You know, I hadn’t thought about this before, but in the first two nuTrek movies, every single major bad person is a white person. And the one guy of color at the beginning of STID, he was only committing a bad act because a white guy was manipulating him into a last gasp chance to save his kid.

450. Dave H - November 15, 2013

#449.

Wow, interesting.

Bob can’t stand the U.S. Gov’t and it’s agencies — this may play into that.

451. K-7 - November 15, 2013

What’s wrong with a good old fashioned Middle Eastern terrorist, anyway? They scare the bejesus out of people, and they are the best in the world in their trade.

When you want the best in something, why go second rate? A British white guy terrorist is just second rate in terms of believability and respect.

It’s like ordering a steak, but getting served a hamburger.

452. Stephan - November 15, 2013

Paramount seems satified and says Trek 13 in the works:

http://trekweb.com/articles/2013/11/14/Viacom-CEO-Says-Paramount-Did-Well-Amid-Unusually-Crowded-Tentpole-Summer-Star-Trek-3-in-Development.shtml

453. Garak's Pride - November 15, 2013

Well said. I could not agree more.

**************************************************

440. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 14, 2013
Comics aren’t canon, no matter how much Bob wants them to be.

I don’t respect the comics. Put it in a legitimate adult Star Trek novel, and then I will at least consider it.

“The line must be drawn…HERE”

PS: In any case, if Orci puts in the comics that he looks Indian, then he is obviously talking about Montelbahn-Khan anyway from TOS.

454. DiscoSpock - November 15, 2013

Guys,

Ditto for me on the comics.

WHERE IN THE HELL ARE THE ADULT STAR TREK NOVELS SET IN THE NEW UNIVERSE — WE HAVE NOTHING YET

?????????????????????????????????????

455. DiscoSpock - November 15, 2013

“What’s wrong with a good old fashioned Middle Eastern terrorist, anyway? They scare the bejesus out of people, and they are the best in the world in their trade.”

You got a point there.

You go to London for a new suit, not a terrorist.

You go to Kandahar for a terrorist, not a new suit.

456. Aurore - November 15, 2013

@ 441

“Guys the hole Khan Issue was that the Producers Including Bob Orci Decided on Khan they deiced they couldn’t have someone who looks Arab or Indian play him cause of the fact they felt it would play into the Stereotype all ready Existing with in the US, UK and Western Europe that links people from those areas as having links to Terrorism, Yes it doesn’t make seance when you look at it because of a Name that we might associate with a Ethnicity but it was a Calculated decision not to play into that Stereotype by the Producers, in the end I think If Gene R was here he would agree with that Decission sence he wasn’t up for pushing Stereotypes in TOS or TNG when he was Alive.”
__________

I can’t speak for him.

But, as you know * , I personally don’t agree with the decision. Besides, from now on, I believe speaking against whitewashing in Hollywood risks being particularly complicated for some of those who dared to do so, in the past.

Since they remained quiet this time around, should this happen again in this franchise or other ones, what will their stance be on the issue ? (Especially if they hear arguments such as ; “A comic book, or novel might explain the change in ethnicity this ‘ethnic’ character had to undergo. No racism was involved. Everybody please behave. “).

My guess is that, if they do speak out, they will probably find a way to explain how whitewashing is never acceptable…depending on who directs a movie…

“…Once Montalban was lined up, they decided the character would be named Sabahl Khan Noonien, which is the name he still has in James Blish’s book adaptation. Why the name Noonien? Gene Roddenberry had a Chinese friend in the 1940s, named Noonien Wang, whom he’d lost touch with. He hoped that one day this episode would air in China, and Wang would see ‘Noonien’ and Roddenberry’s name, and get in touch. Roddenberry was still trying to reach his friend in the late 1980s, which is why Data’s creator is Noonien Soong.

NBC’s research company suggested changing the character name to Govin Bahadur Singh, because the name ‘Khan’ had implications about the character’s Sikh ethnicity. But Roddenberry wanted both Khan and Noonien in the name.

The final script draft is covered with scribbles, in Roddenberry’s handwriting, as he makes last-minute changes. Here and there, the name ‘Erickson’ is crossed out, and the name ‘Khan’ is written in pencil — because they forgot to change it in some places….”

…As I was saying above, I can’t speak for Gene Roddenberry ; I don’t know whether or not he would have approved of the “change” today…I only know what he did do for the character, a long time ago…

(Link if authorized, here) :

http://io9.com/inside-secrets-of-the-making-of-star-trek-ii-wrath-of-457250013
_______

*
(Posts 454, 460…) :

http://trekmovie.com/2013/09/01/star-trek-is-broken-here-are-ideas-on-how-to-fix-it/

457. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - November 15, 2013

@451. K-7 – November 15, 2013

“When you want the best in something, why go second rate? A British white guy terrorist is just second rate in terms of believability and respect.

It’s like ordering a steak, but getting served a hamburger.”

How quickly we forget the Irish terrorists (on both sides of the sectarian divide) in the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s in particular…

458. LogicalLeopard - November 15, 2013

406. Red Shirt Diaries – November 14, 2013
My goodness, I am so sick of people here completely ignoring the rather large population of Hispanic Punjabi Sikhs around the world. Here is one example below in an article on this topic.

****************

*LOL* Well, gee, once in a while you learn something after you argue about a silly point. Thanks for the info! Like K-7 said, “Game Over.”

459. Phil - November 15, 2013

@454… Adult Star Trek novels….

Kirk: Yeoman Destiny, give me a hand with this new computer.
Yeoman: Destiny: (leaning over desk): Yes, Captain…
Kirk: Damn recordkeeping. The Captains log is just so hard at times..
Yeoman Destiny: It sure is, sir. And you have such a big one, too.
Kirk: Why, yes, I do…… mmmmmmmmmm

Sorry …..

460. LogicalLeopard - November 15, 2013

411. Keachick – November 14, 2013

That was NOT in the Director’s Final Cut. It was part of a *DELETED scene. Scenes are deleted for a reason. I do not accept any deleted scene as being part of the actual story told in a movie. Is it any wonder that the producers have chosen not to put deleted scenes on any of the Blu-ray/DVD discs? I am thankful that they have not, because it cuts down on the bs like what you have written above.
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Well, I wouldn’t call what I wrote “BS.” I fully understand that deleted scenes are not “canon.” But I don’t think that prohibits a viewer, such as myself, from taking them into consideration if it helps my appreciation of the movie. Some scenes are tossed because they no longer work with the movie, others are tossed because of time, pacing, etc. So, personally, I like to think that the ones that weren’t tossed because they conflict with the final product happened.

That’s my personal view, and I understand if you don’t do the same thing. But like I said, I think these two movies were a throughly enjoyable examination of Kirk as a character. It’s really profound, and has a lot to say about human nature. In TOS we see a Kirk that is a seasoned commander, bold, inventive, decisive, honorable, and temperate, for the most part. In ST09/STID we see a Kirk who still has the potential to be all those things, but because of anger and pain at presumably not having a father, having a sometimes absent mother, and a not so swell uncle, he becomes sort of a deliquent. I think the alcohol and woman seeking things are more symptomatic of the alternate timeline than a reflection of who the TOS Kirk was. But the great thing is, the movies show that he can overcome all of the negative things, and create positive. And that helps when you look at negative people around you. That criminal could save lives if given direction, motivation, and opportunity.
************************************

Yes – “floozie” is disrespectful and what little we do have of Kirk in his relationships with other women, he is never heard being rude towards or about a woman, however, he was disrespected by none other than Carol Marcus.
************************
Well then, I apologize for using the word “floozie.” A bad attempt at coloring up a point. Gaila stated that Uhura got mad at her for bringing boys back to her room, which implied that she had done it a few times before (as Kirk asks). Some might call a person who does that a “floozie.” Of course, we don’t know Gaila, or what her habits and attitudes are, they’re merely implied through the movie, and the canon rumor regarding Orion women who have “animalistic” sexual appetites. But if that’s so, xenologically calling her a floozie is like a Vulcan calling a human a floozie for engaging in intercourse once every three months.

Wow…I don’t think I’ve ever used the word floozie in my life more than I have in this thread.

***************************

Kirk was being deliberately playful and smug – that was to call out the Kobiyashi Maru simulation test for the bullshit that it was! Anyone can pretend smugness…

*******************************

Well, that’s my point. We find out that the Kobayashi Maru was NOT BS, because occasionally, a Captain may find himself in a position that no amount of ingenuity, skill, or experience will get them out of. Like the “I’m Sorry” scene. It was gut-punchingly sad, but very well done, continuing off of the Kobayashi Maru sequence from the last movie. There was absolutely nothing Kirk could have done to prevent the destruction of the Enterprise, had Scotty not intervened. Now, a lot of people don’t care for the new movies, and that’s fine, but how could anyone not love excellent storytelling and acting like that?

Oh, but on the Bluray not having deleted scenes, I sort of thought it was a money grab, so they can make another Special Edition version later, with voice overs, deleted scenes, etc. Of course, I could be pessimistic. It could just be due to the fact that there seems to be a greater rush to put things out on DVD/Blu Ray now, and that the creators were too busy to pick out deleted scenes, do voice overs, etc. I dunno, but I always enjoy watching them. Makes me feel cheated when I don’t see them, I mean, at least provide a blooper real. I haven’t bought the movie yet, and I’m not sure when I will, I buy very few movies, however.

461. crazydaystrom - November 15, 2013

Re: Kirk’s mother-
Her film absence after the Kelvin scene and a throw away mention later is just a shame, IMO. With all the talk of a father figure for Kirk and Spock’s pain due to the tragic loss of his own Mother, I think at least a nod to Wynona Kirk is deserved. I keep saying there needs to be science fiction writers working with the filmmakers. It occurs to me female writers in the mix would be a great thing as well. I’m slow but I get there.

462. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 15, 2013

Nu-Khan was smart enough to make himself a white guy.

Apparently Nu-Khan saw many undesirable impurities in his Indian blood.

463. Cervantes - November 15, 2013

@ crazydaystrom – thanks for pointing out how Kevin Costner’s character handled the ‘romantic tiff’ in the trailer for the latest ‘Jack Ryan’ movie!

Having checked it out, I initially wished that nu-‘Kirk’s response to the escalating nu-‘Uhura’/nu-‘Spock’ squabble had been written in a somewhat similar, firmer, and funnier way…rather than letting himself get ‘steamrollered’ into having to listen to it play out… I wouldn’t have minded so much about this scene or it’s dialogue, except it seemed to occur at a really inappropriate moment at that point in the movie.

…but having said that, I realised I was basing my view on the TOS -‘Kirk’ of old, and was forgetting that there are quite *different* character traits in some of J.J.’s nu-crew now…and especially nu-‘Spock’…

Fair enough, and I appreciate that newcomers to the ‘Star Trek’ franchise would not have the baggage of past incarnations to compare against…but as I personally prefer the TOS-crew’s original characteristics, I find it much easier to look on J.J.’s movies as showing a *totally separate*, ‘alternate universe’- crew altogether…rather than showing the actual original TOS-crew as having supposedly had their original ‘timeline’ splintered off! And of course, I also prefer to imagine that it’s merely an nu-‘elderly Spock’ that originates from that same ‘alternative universe’ to the TOS one to begin with, that goes ‘back in time’ to meet up with his ‘alternate universe’ nu-crew…

It certainly helps me to smooth over *all* the various idiosyncrasies in both those movies that I dislike such as the dubiously fast nu-‘Kirk’ promotion, radically amazing ‘transporter’ abilities, a ‘submarine’-like nu-‘Enterprise’ that was built on the ground rather than in Earth’s orbit, ‘magic blood’ cop-out, and seeing an obviously ‘white’ actor playing a previously ‘ethnically’-played ‘Khan’, etc. etc.

@ MJ #442 – I totally agree with everything you said in that particular post, especially your “This is the same kind of Hollywood bullshit that gave us a Mandarin in IM3 that morphed into Benny Hill.” Ha, ha! :)

While I really like Cumberbatch and his performance, I think it was a poor misstep to cast him instead of someone a little more ‘ethnic’ like he was originally portrayed. Such a pity that the del Toro casting fell through – he or his agent just weren’t big enough fans of the franchise to compromise, I guess. Of course, if ‘Khan’ hadn’t been used in the first place…things would have far less controversial where STID was concerned. Cumberbatch would have been an absolutely marvellous addition if only he’d just been simply kept as ‘John Harrison’ or ‘Joachim’ as others have stated in the past. I sure look forward to the IDIW comic tie-in ‘solution’ to nu-‘Khan’s ‘ethnicity’… Having said that, whether it’s ‘kind of explainable’ in this tie-in, or even in a full-blown ‘Trek’ novel eventually…as far as I’m concerened it’s *stil*l a mystery ‘on-screen’ where it mattered…unless the *next* sequel shows otherwise, of course…

Either way, even though I just look on both movies as being totally disconnected from the ‘actual’ TOS ‘prime universe’ show/movies, I still intend to ‘fanedit’ both of J.J.’s entries in future…to remove certain moments/dialogue from them to make things more palatable for myself in future…such as getting rid of the nu-‘Uhura’/nu-‘Spock’ tiff scene…and also removing the nu-‘Spock’ “KHHAAAANNN! moment for instance.

That line of dialogue may be fine for anyone unfamiliar with the ‘Wrath Of Khan’ movie, or with those that think it’s a *clever* ‘reversal/reference’ to the original movie…but it’s just another thing that ‘takes me out’ of the movie everytime I hear it, I’m afraid. Only ‘Darth Vader’s ridiculous “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!” at the end of ‘Revenge Of The Sith’ sounds worse to me…but only just…

464. crazydaystrom - November 15, 2013

463. Cervantes
Having checked it out, I initially wished that nu-’Kirk’s response to the escalating nu-’Uhura’/nu-’Spock’ squabble had been written in a somewhat similar, firmer, and funnier way…rather than letting himself get ‘steamrollered’ into having to listen to it play out…
but having said that, I realised I was basing my view on the TOS -’Kirk’ of old, and was forgetting that there are quite *different* character traits in some of J.J.’s nu-crew now…

I hear ya Cervantes. But for me it was less the the difference between nu and old Kirks and more the impropriety of the exchanges in that particular situation. And the tone of them. I appreciate humor in general and humor in Star Trek but overdoing the cutesy doesn’t irritates me, particularly when it’s inappropriate of the situation.

465. dmduncan - November 15, 2013

The problem isn’t that Cumberbatch isn’t ethnic enough. He’s PLENTY ethnic. Problem is he’s so obviously the wrong TYPE of ethnic!

466. dmduncan - November 15, 2013

I wonder how much producers BS each other out there in Hollywood out of fear of not getting as much work if you don’t “ABSOLUTELY LOVE!!!” each other’s ideas?

The casting was just so OBVIOUSLY bad that it looks from out here that no one wanted to challenge JJ on an idea he liked. Groupthink. What was a nugget—of malodorous unmentionable material—started looking like gold to all involved.

Too much ego and not enough respect for or awareness of the power of truthful feedback.

Some of those folks out there need to undergo the treatment Kirk has been getting lately.

467. Red Dead Ryan - November 15, 2013

#457.

“How quickly we forget the Irish terrorists (on both sides of the sectarian divide) in the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s in particular…”

And what you seem to forget is that Benedict Cumberbatch’s Khan as depicted in STID was inspired by Muslim radicals, most of whom are brown-skinned, and from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Pan-Arabia, Iran, and various African countries.

Irish terrorism tends to be limited to Ireland and Northern Ireland, though in the past they have targeted Britain. But still, these guys have nothing on Islamic radicals when it comes to mass destruction and casualties.

And I agree with Dave H. that the real reason that Cumberbatch was cast was because the producers had squandered so much time on other projects they had to cast “the next best actor” available, or in the case fo Benecio del Toro, couldn’t match the salary demands of the actor they were looking at.

468. dmduncan - November 15, 2013

442. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 14, 2013

I agree. I still like the movie too but the squeaky wheel gets the oil. If people don’t like something they saw, squeak up!

If people here don’t give people there truthful feedback (without namecalling), then the message from us for ST13 is going to read “Thank You Sir May I Have Another?”

469. dmduncan - November 15, 2013

Saying you can’t cast the role with anyone better than Cumberbatch is like saying water is unavailable in LA because the 7/11 down the street ran out of Perrier.

470. Ahmed - November 15, 2013

An interesting article about movie trailers these days:

“Filmmakers need to start thinking about their trailers more carefully – for starters, they need to stop giving everything away. Trailers should be restricted to a maximum of two minutes; any longer than that and people start to get bored. Don’t judge a film by its trailer – just because the trailer is long and boring as hell it doesn’t mean the film will be too, it just means that whoever put the trailer together doesn’t understand how good advertising works.

Like any good advert, a good trailer is compact, interesting and tells you what you need to know without delving into too many unnecessary details. Audiences are more likely to avoid a film when the trailer sends them to sleep before they’ve even seen the release date. So, filmmakers of the world: do yourself a favour and leave some of the film a mystery.”

http://screenrobot.com/longer-trailer-worse-film/

471. TUP - November 15, 2013

We can rehash the Khan debate. I said from the beginning (before the movie) that the role should *not* be Khan, but Jochin. Here’s why:

– BC *CANNOT* play Khan. And just like the Kirk promotion, these writers are, after the fact, trying to be cute about their lack of care on the subject by answering to this in the comics of all places (*rolls eyes*).

– BC *COULD* play Jochin

– Paramount’s marketing department could actually market Khan, the return of the most popular bad guy in Trek because it wouldnt be the “real surprise” in the movie…the real surprise would be that BC is *not* Khan. So…let him pretend to be Khan…

– Reveal he not really Khan as a result of Spock Prime. This, Spock Prime has something wirthwhile to do in the film that directly impacts the movie.

– Reveal at the end of the movie that Khan is still frozen by panning over the tubes and seeing Montelbans’s face. *THAT* would be a heck of a surprise scene…

I like BC but I think he had so little to do in the film that his character came across one dimensional. I didnt believe or care about his crying nonsense. You cant create sympathy for a mudering tyrant. He spoke very well, delivered his lines wonderfully, but there wasnt anything there beyond that.

I found Marcus’ character much more interesting and Peter Weller’s portrayal much more entertaining. In fact, had Marcus been the main bad guy and the plot revolving around posession of the Botony Bay and what to do with them, it would have been far more interesting.

472. dmduncan - November 15, 2013

Here’s a parable that comes from my recent experience. The nurse pours a sprite for her patient into a styrofoam cup; she decides to write the name of the drink on the cup with her black sharpie. As she’s writing “Sprite” on the cup she says to her patient, “There’s nothing worse than drinking something that’s not what you thought it was.”

Yes.

That dovetails nicely with what I said earlier. If the can says “Coke,” then there’d better not be root beer inside.

Now, think of your iconic characters as if each is a package, like a can of Coke, with a visual flavor that people know and have expectations of experiencing.

You can’t just CALL it Coke. It has to BE Coke. It has to TASTE that way. Sorry, but any outcome you want is not possible from any thing you do. You can’t make up your own reality and impose it on everyone else, because we will reject it.

This is not a bad thing or an unfair thing. This is the world telling you that it is not whatever you want it to be, and that there are prices to pay for pretending that it is.

473. Keachick - November 15, 2013

“There was absolutely nothing Kirk could have done to prevent the destruction of the Enterprise, had Scotty not intervened. Now, a lot of people don’t care for the new movies, and that’s fine, but how could anyone not love excellent storytelling and acting like that?”

I am not the one querying the excellent storytelling and acting. I never have. That is what others have done, but not me.

Is that not the point of why Kirk called out KM simulation test? It was a computer simulation which offered the same outcome always, no matter what the test takers did. However, as we saw, Scotty unexpectedly resigned from his position as Chief Engineer aboard the Enterprise and therefore could be elsewhere, anywhere else. He, thus, became the wildcard factor. It was about the little unpredictable events that can occur, which later have an impact on outcomes – or not…

Unfortunately, with mentioning the deleted scenes which means that you wander away from the Director’s Cut, you appear to miss important elements revealed in the actual movie we are all meant to see. The context of the ST09 KM scene actually starts with Kirk asking McCoy to turn up at his third attempt at the KM simulation test. When we first watch that scene, Kirk is being his jovial self, saying “Hello, Ladies” etc then, when McCoy queries him about taking that test, Kirk’s entire demeanour changes. He is no longer being playful, he is very serious…watch and listen!
This same seriousness occurs when he is being grilled by Spock over his cheating on the test.

Kirk became the real life wildcard factor for this unreal simulation test. This is not about Kirk’s so-called hubris, smugness, rebelliousness or anything else. This is about Kirk’s insight into reality…

474. Keachick - November 15, 2013

I thought the ever long discussion about who, as in what the actor’s skin colour, should have, could have played Harrison/Khan was done. Obviously not…groan…says she (Keachick) who is in the racial minority in my neighbourhood.

475. LogicalLeopard - November 15, 2013

466. dmduncan – November 15, 2013
I wonder how much producers BS each other out there in Hollywood out of fear of not getting as much work if you don’t “ABSOLUTELY LOVE!!!” each other’s ideas?

The casting was just so OBVIOUSLY bad that it looks from out here that no one wanted to challenge JJ on an idea he liked. Groupthink. What was a nugget—of malodorous unmentionable material—started looking like gold to all involved.
************************

Once again, the casting isn’t obviously bad. Casting someone without acting talent would have been obviously bad. Casting a competent actor, Benedict Cumberbatch, for a role and adjusting the identity of the character is not bad casting. I don’t think anyone can argue that BC didn’t deliver on what he was asked to do, whether you agree with him being casted in that position or not.

You may think it’s a bad CHOICE, but just because you think it’s a bad choice doesn’t make it bad casting. There’s a distinction.

476. LogicalLeopard - November 15, 2013

I am not the one querying the excellent storytelling and acting. I never have. That is what others have done, but not me.
*******************

I didn’t mean to imply that you were.

*************************
Is that not the point of why Kirk called out KM simulation test? It was a computer simulation which offered the same outcome always, no matter what the test takers did. However, as we saw, Scotty unexpectedly resigned from his position as Chief Engineer aboard the Enterprise and therefore could be elsewhere, anywhere else. He, thus, became the wildcard factor. It was about the little unpredictable events that can occur, which later have an impact on outcomes – or not
**********************************

Well, that’s why Kirk called out the KM test, but Spock defended it because it’s a character test, essentially, measuring how potential characters react to the no win scenario. He cites Kirk’s father (rather callously, but he’s a Vulcan, so….) as an example. And he’s RIGHT. You say Scotty was a wildcard. This is true, but there are a lot of wild cards available in a “no-win” scenario. But the KM test still holds, because it’s a test of what YOU can control as a commander, not unintended situations. Kirk didn’t send Scotty on a mission to cripple the Vengeance. Thus Kirk was powerless to protect his crew and himself from death. Nothing within his power would have stopped it from happening, if Scotty hadn’t have done what he did and gotten away with it.
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Unfortunately, with mentioning the deleted scenes which means that you wander away from the Director’s Cut, you appear to miss important elements revealed in the actual movie we are all meant to see. The context of the ST09 KM scene actually starts with Kirk asking McCoy to turn up at his third attempt at the KM simulation test. When we first watch that scene, Kirk is being his jovial self, saying “Hello, Ladies” etc then, when McCoy queries him about taking that test, Kirk’s entire demeanour changes. He is no longer being playful, he is very serious…watch and listen!
This same seriousness occurs when he is being grilled by Spock over his cheating on the test.

Kirk became the real life wildcard factor for this unreal simulation test. This is not about Kirk’s so-called hubris, smugness, rebelliousness or anything else. This is about Kirk’s insight into reality…

*********************************

I’m not saying Kirk wasn’t serious. I’m saying that he was full of hubris and he was smug about the thing. Eating an apple and making pew-pew gestures with your hand when you are the only one to successfully complete a test is SMUG, it’s not just playful or humorous.

But mainly, there’s second hand verification for this, because Pike pretty much tells him so:

“Do you know what a pain you are? You think the rules don’t apply to you. There’s greatness in you, but there’s not an ounce of humility. You think that you can’t make mistakes, but there’s going to come a moment when you realize you’re wrong about that, and you’re going to get yourself and everyone under your command killed. ”

All that is director’s cut material. And like I said, I see a great transition from the Kobayashi Maru lesson Spock tried to teach him and the events of STID. Which all in all, is pretty fine storytelling. Kirk appeared too ticked off at being “cheated” by an unwinnable test, he failed to divine the reasoning for the test. That lesson was interrupted by the Vulcan attack, but brought right back around when Marcus cut the commlink from the Vengeance. Which actually, I forgot to mention how brilliant that was as well. I think it sounded like he was in the process of giving the order to fire when it cut off. Those little touches REALLY put the viewer in the position of the characters. One of the great things about these movies is that Abrams Trek really gives great opportunities to feel what the characters are going through. The writing and acting bring things out wonderfully, so you can really feel for them.

477. LogicalLeopard - November 15, 2013

472. dmduncan – November 15, 2013
Now, think of your iconic characters as if each is a package, like a can of Coke, with a visual flavor that people know and have expectations of experiencing.

You can’t just CALL it Coke. It has to BE Coke. It has to TASTE that way. Sorry, but any outcome you want is not possible from any thing you do. You can’t make up your own reality and impose it on everyone else, because we will reject it.
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*LOL* So, Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan was like…the difference between Pepsi and Crystal Pepsi? *LOLOLOLOLOL*

I don’t know if you ever had it, but I didn’t think it was bad. I think the look of it distracted people more than the taste of it. If you closed your eyes, it probably tasted just like Pepsi. I didn’t close my eyes when I tried it, so I can’t be sure. But that’s a pretty appropriate example for this Khan debate

478. LogicalLeopard - November 15, 2013

449. K-7 – November 15, 2013
You know, I hadn’t thought about this before, but in the first two nuTrek movies, every single major bad person is a white person. And the one guy of color at the beginning of STID, he was only committing a bad act because a white guy was manipulating him into a last gasp chance to save his kid.

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Well, almost every single major good person, with the exception of Uhura and Sulu, is a white people as well. White people will always compose the majority of good guys and bad guys in Star Trek as long as Star Trek continues to be produced in countries, such as the United States, where the majority of the actors are white. It’s a numbers game. All of the major bad guys in Star Trek have been white, with the exception of the whale probe and V’ger, I’m pretty sure.

479. LogicalLeopard - November 15, 2013

471. TUP – November 15, 2013

I think we should all be able to agree that no matter how we all feel about BC playing Khan, Abrams&Co WON’T revisit this situation and say that BC’s character wasn’t him. There’s nothing in it for them. It will only please a percentage of fans, and confuse many of the casual movie goers. I’m a much more casual Star Wars viewer, but if I went to a new movie and heard that the Boba Fett that died in the Sarlacc pit wasn’t really Boba Fett, but THIS guy was really Boba Fett, I would think it’d pretty cheap. First of all, I don’t care that much about Boba Fett to begin with, second of all, I’d think, “why are you spending precious movie time rehashing a plot from Episode VI? Just give me something new!”

They can let STID stand as it is, and go on to another subject. No reason to revise it, etc. I think the only thing that would make them go back into that story is if BC rockets into a bigger star than he already is, and they feel he’ll be a chief factor in drawing American and world audiences back to see a new Star Trek feature. And if so, I hardly think they’d be willing to monkey around with what they already did, because they’d basically be saying they made a mistake. I don’t think they believe they made a mistake casting, and I don’t think most of the viewing public thinks they made a mistake.

480. dmduncan - November 15, 2013

477. LogicalLeopard – November 15, 2013

Actually, their Khan is more like Sprite in a can of Coke.

The example is appropriate but unfortunately the principle permeates every aspect of life, including ones that are vitally important.

The disastrous introduction of the Obamacare website is a more serious example of people believing that A is B.

So it really is an important thing to be mindful of even in situations like this where the consequences of a mistake are not really more damaging than harm to somebody’s ego and complaints by fans.

If you can’t sort things out when the stakes are low, it’s hard to believe you will be good at it when the stakes are high. Life is always a game of practice so I don’t trivialize how folks play the “simulation.”

481. Phil - November 15, 2013

Yeah, actually new Kirks attitude toward the KM is a reflection of his immaturity and arrogance. A simulation, any simulation, isn’t intended to be anything more then practice, to drill a desired behavior until it becomes second nature. Kirks attitude toward it in his hearing suggests he doesn’t see the need for this, as though the sheer willpower of his presence alone is sufficient to avoid the circumstances being drilled for. In this universe, at least, it appears that SF puts equal weight on the simulation, which explains why Kirk was brought up on charges.

In the TOS universe, it’s unclear how SF views multiple attempts to take the simulation. As he was presented with the commendation, it’s not unreasonable to assume that after the first attempt subsequent attempts are viewed as practice.

The simulation isn’t a cheat. Here, in the new universe, this Kirk has skated on court-martial twice now – had those hearings ever been conducted the KM results would probably have been admissible. It’s a subtle difference, but as the modus operandi of Kirk is now established, it might not have mattered much. Doing just enough to get by gets the job done in this universe.

482. dmduncan - November 15, 2013

477. LogicalLeopard – November 15, 2013

Did you see Ender’s Game?

What lesson do you take away from the ending? How did Ender really burn himself?

483. LogicalLeopard - November 15, 2013

480. dmduncan – November 15, 2013

Actually, their Khan is more like Sprite in a can of Coke.

The example is appropriate but unfortunately the principle permeates every aspect of life, including ones that are vitally important.

The disastrous introduction of the Obamacare website is a more serious example of people believing that A is B.

So it really is an important thing to be mindful of even in situations like this where the consequences of a mistake are not really more damaging than harm to somebody’s ego and complaints by fans.

If you can’t sort things out when the stakes are low, it’s hard to believe you will be good at it when the stakes are high. Life is always a game of practice so I don’t trivialize how folks play the “simulation.”

**********************

Eh, I wouldn’t agree that BCKhan is Sprite. Maybe Diet Coke, with a different label and packaging, and a slightly different taste, but to call him Sprite would mean that he was dramatically different than the character of Khan. All you have to do is ask yourself whether or not Khan would have acted in the manner that he did given the circumstances he faced. I think the answer is yes.

I also wouldn’t agree that they made a mistake. One is more likely to call Jar Jar Binks a mistake, because he was almost universally panned, even though Lucas stuck by him. Not the same with Khan.

With the Obamacare website, one could say that not getting a little thing right would lead one not to trust the big thing, but really the website becomes less relevant when 1) it can be fixed and 2) the product is okay. I’m reserving my judgement on Obamacare (even though I don’t think it will work) based on how the products actually work, and the fallout from it. Not from website glitches.
*************************************

482. dmduncan – November 15, 2013

Did you see Ender’s Game?

What lesson do you take away from the ending? How did Ender really burn himself?

**************************

Yes I saw it, but now I admit that I’m having problems differentiating the ending between the movie and the book, which I read three times, once for fun, then for high school english class, then for college composition. As I remember, in the movie, he was burned out after being pressed in command school and the “reveal,” which I wont spoil. The lesson I took away from it was that the ends justify the means *LOL* I”m the wrong person to ask that question, because I defended Bonzo Madrid as the worlds greatest military commander in an assignment, much to the horror of my english teacher. Yeah, I did it to freak her out, but still *LOL*

484. Keachick - November 15, 2013

Kirk’s basic nature is not to give up. That is not hubris, anything but. It is about being humble and persistent, of being able to realize what he can and can’t do at any given time. It is about believing in possibilities, in having faith and not allowing fear and hubris to get in the way of trying to find a solution, of feeling for and valuing the lives of one’s self and others.

I am not sure what “mistake” he is supposed to have made that others may not have made as well (not referring to the Nibiru incident). Kirk was not the only person to lose a loved one, a colleague, in those two attacks on Starfleet – the first being in London and later at San Francisco SFHQ. The need to find this attacker was not just on Kirk’s mind nor indeed any grief or desire for revenge either, but would have occupied the minds of others as well.

Kirk was sorry about the fact that he could not save the ship as anyone in his position would/should be. Everyone on that bridge realized that they had all been sacrificial pawns in some twisted game of betrayal played by a trusted and revered Starfleet Admiral. Of course, Kirk was sorry just as he would have been if he had not been able to save Spock from the volcanic eruption. He is a man of feeling and conscience and he was dealing with reality, which is what Kirk is about – reality, not classroom simulations. Kirk does not need a simulation test in order that he show off to tutors false humility/modesty, having the “right” kind of character, at a secure Starfleet Academy training school.

485. Vultan - November 15, 2013

I wouldn’t trust Jimmy Kirk to paint my garage. Too much a dope this time around. Forrest Gumps his way through life.

486. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 15, 2013

Forrest Gump, let’s see, successful millionaire, athlete, war hero, and great parent.

Sing me up!

487. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 15, 2013

“The simulation isn’t a cheat. Here, in the new universe, this Kirk has skated on court-martial twice now – had those hearings ever been conducted the KM results would probably have been admissible. It’s a subtle difference, but as the modus operandi of Kirk is now established, it might not have mattered much. Doing just enough to get by gets the job done in this universe.”

Phil, I don’t really get what point you are trying to make here?

488. Garak's Pride - November 15, 2013

#485

Huh? Actually, Forrest Gump would probably be the best kind of person you could pick for a garage painting job.

Did you even see the movie or read the book, Forrest Gump?

You come across as completely ignorant on using that reference?

489. dmduncan - November 15, 2013

483. LogicalLeopard – November 15, 2013

You defended Bonzo as the world’s greatest military commander???

Had I been drinking coffee when I read that, I would have spewed it all over the place!

490. Ahmed - November 15, 2013

The answer regarding Khan will come out in February.

=========================

Star Trek: Khan #5 continues the story of the origins of Khan. Find out how he became known as John Harrison, and how his vendetta against Admiral Marcus and Section 31 began.

Written by Mike Johnson, with art by David Messina and cover by Paul Shipper, Star Trek: Khan #5 is overseen by Roberto Orci.

http://www.trektoday.com/content/2013/11/star-trek-february-2014-comics/
=========================

The comics are overseen by Bob, so I guess that make the comics the official explanation.

491. Ahmed - November 15, 2013

Abrams saying that CBS is not interested in a new Trek series!!

===============================

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Since Marvel launched Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., is there a chance of a Star Trek TV show? Or will they continue not making a new series as long as there are movies in the pipeline?

J.J. ABRAMS: I have been hearing for as long as I can remember that CBS, who has the rights to the series, has just been saying they’re not interested. That’s the word I’ve been told. [A CBS Studios rep replied: “We love the Star Trek franchise, its fan base and the many possibilities for its future when the time is right.”]

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/11/15/j-j-abrams-almost-human-interview/

492. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 15, 2013

Sorry. I will not click to see Orci’s comical Trek band-aid.

Above @475. “Once again, the casting isn’t obviously bad.”

Well, then Cumberbatch’s portrayal of Khan was terrible. As there was not anything there that was remarkable, or in a good way memorable, or anything that reminded me of a Khan. I seem to remember a story here about Cumberbatch showing up on set without much time to study the character. This really threw me as Khan was obviously the center of this movie.

I just watched ID again a few weeks ago. That was only my second viewing, and the movie kept my attention pretty well, and I was less stressed after seeing some scenes, but it just wasn’t something that I was quoting days later, or even thinking much about the next day. Oh well. As much as STID had it’s moments, it was still bad TOS Trek, and unfortunately, forgettable.

I can’t see how this movie will contribute to a trilogy. Perhaps one day it will be seen as Nu-Trek’s “filler movie” in the four picture deal.

493. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 15, 2013

“492. TrekMadeMeWonder – November 15, 2013″

I thought you voluntarily agreed to leave this site for good given you pretty much pissed everybody off here constantly, including Matt Wright?

I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt if you are here to behave better this time, but I assure you that many of us will be watching your posts very carefully here.

You are already starting your nuTrek hate baiting. For now, I will let it slide.

494. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 15, 2013

@491.

Agents of Shield has been dropping in the ratings several weeks in a row now, and the producers and network are getting a tad concerned.

So you may not want to rely that example to show how Trek could be successful on TV. Not saying you are, but others here have tried to make this comparison.

495. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 15, 2013

“The comics are overseen by Bob, so I guess that make the comics the official explanation.”

The comics are NOT canon — never have been, and never will be. I’d rather consider the Mr. Spock lunchboxes as canon that the silly comics.

496. Keachick - November 15, 2013

#495 – According to Bob Orci, these comics about the alternate universe do constitute canon, unless they are overwritten by what might later appear on film. He has the franchise owner’s permission to do this. None of us have permission to say otherwise.

To me, a well written and illustrated comic book is as good and as reputable form of story writing as any other form. It is no longer just a children’s story telling medium and neither is film animation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics

497. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 15, 2013

@496.

Bullshit. Gene Rodenberry himself basically said comics are not canon. Bob Orci does not get to overrule Gene Roddenberry.

The comics are not canon, and nothing you, Bob Orci, or anyone else here can say will convince we otherwise.

They are not canon…period…end of story.

498. DiscoSpock - November 15, 2013

MJ is correct.

Star Trek comics are not canon.

499. Ahmed - November 15, 2013

@ 494. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 15, 2013

“@491.

Agents of Shield has been dropping in the ratings several weeks in a row now, and the producers and network are getting a tad concerned.

So you may not want to rely that example to show how Trek could be successful on TV. Not saying you are, but others here have tried to make this comparison.”

MJ, the guy from EW is the one asking, not me :)

500. Ahmed - November 15, 2013

@ 497. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 15, 2013

“Bullshit. Gene Rodenberry himself basically said comics are not canon. Bob Orci does not get to overrule Gene Roddenberry.

The comics are not canon, and nothing you, Bob Orci, or anyone else here can say will convince we otherwise.

They are not canon…period…end of story.”

Nope, Rodenberry is dead & Bob is the new Trek master. So if he says that comics are canon, then it is canon. After all, he is the one running the show, right ?

501. Jonboc - November 15, 2013

I have to disagree. If Orci says comics are canon, then the comics, created in THAT timeline, are canon. They are the keepers of the flame right now. Roddenberry hasn’t had a say-so about anything TOS-related since TMP and he certainy has no say in the matter now.
At the end of the day, it’s a matter of individual preference…nothing anyone dictates as “official” will ever change my choice of how to percieve it anyway.

502. Dave H - November 15, 2013

I don’t think Bob Orci has the standing to overule Gene Rodenberry’s definition of canon concerning the comics.

Maybe if JJ Abrams himself were to provide a quote on this I could buy it. But Orci? I mean, I like the guy, but its not like he is yet “in the chair.” As we saw in STID, you’ve got to earn the chair. Right now, for a leadership point, JJ kind of is the leader and maybe is in the chair; Orci, not really…not yet.

503. Dave H - November 15, 2013

“Nope, Roddenberry is dead & Bob is the new Trek master.”

Since when? Last time I checked, JJ is head of Bad Robot, and Bob is one writer and one producer, under JJ, with no other role defined yet for the future?

Until we hear differently, JJ is the closest thing for Trek production leadership to Roddenberry right now. Orci is one of three producers on Star Trek that reports to JJ, and is also on the writing team that reports to JJ.

If you can confirming anything the refutes this, I am all ears?

504. K-7 - November 15, 2013

Ahmed,

You are defending the Khan comics and Orci now? Huh? Weren’t you the guy who went viral on Bob on the Internet two months back by saying:

“…you guys didn’t listen to the fans before & will always do what the studio wants; which is a movie that has more action & less thinking….I’m sorry but what plot ? Khan was found & used by Section 31 & then he put his own people in the torpedo to save them or whatever & the rest of the movie follow in the same illogical way.”

So now you support comics related to this same plot you supposedly severely rejected all over the public Internet? wtf???

505. Vultan - November 15, 2013

#488

True, I would trust Gump to do the job.
Just not Kirk.

506. Red Dead Ryan - November 15, 2013

I don’t recall Bob actually stating that the comics are canon…..in fact, there has been times on this site where he seemed to waffle on the issue.

And even if he did say they were canon, he is a writer. J.J Abrams is the boss of Bad Robot, and he doesn’t seem to care either way. I would say his opinion carries more weight.

The top brass are CBS and Paramount. And they have both said only the movies and tv series are canon.

CASE CLOSED!!!

507. Red Dead Ryan - November 15, 2013

I find it interesting that Ahmed and TrekMadeMeWonder, two guys who dislike STID, continue to offer their opinions on the subject instead of just moving on.

I’m not sure what they’re hoping to accomplish here???

508. Vultan - November 15, 2013

#486

Good point, MJ. I take it back. I’ll go with what dmduncan said: new Kirk is more like Zapp Brannigan. :-D

Anyway, a big hello to all of you here. I haven’t been on this site much lately. Just wanted to say hi. Hope all is well.

509. dmduncan - November 15, 2013

508. Vultan – November 15, 2013

Hey Vultan, how’s it going? Good to hear from you again.

510. dmduncan - November 15, 2013

508. Vultan – November 15, 2013
#486

Good point, MJ. I take it back. I’ll go with what dmduncan said: new Kirk is more like Zapp Brannigan. :-D

***

Phil actually made the connection first. I thought it was funny.

511. Vultan - November 15, 2013

I’m good, dmduncan. How are you?

512. Vultan - November 15, 2013

Ah well, all credit to Phil then.

513. Vultan - November 15, 2013

Wish I could add something interesting about STID, but I think everything you can say about the movie has already been said several times over by now. Looking forward to whatever happens next for Trek….

514. Red Dead Ryan - November 15, 2013

#513.

“Wish I could add something interesting about STID, but I think everything you can say about the movie has already been said several times over by now. Looking forward to whatever happens next for Trek….”

Vultan, I appreciate your statement here which doesn’t spew hate or disrespect towards fans of STID.

Ahmed, TrekMadeMeWonder, and other anti-nuTrekkers: This is the proper way of dealing with a topic that isn’t your cup of tea. Either that, or just keep quiet.

515. Bill Peters - November 15, 2013

On Trekmovie.com, co-producer and co-screenwriter Bob Orci addressed Khan’s casting: “Basically, as we went through the casting process and we began honing in on the themes of the movie, it became uncomfortable for me to support demonizing anyone of color, particularly any one of Middle Eastern descent or anyone evoking that. One of the points of the movie is that we must be careful about the villain within US, not some other race”.[

516. Bill Peters - November 15, 2013

This I Find Intresting , Parmount owns the Movie Rights and CBS the TV Rights but JJ says one thing and CBS says another in this:

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Since Marvel launched Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., is there a chance of a Star Trek TV show? Or will they continue not making a new series as long as there are movies in the pipeline?

J.J. ABRAMS: I have been hearing for as long as I can remember that CBS, who has the rights to the series, has just been saying they’re not interested. That’s the word I’ve been told. [A CBS Studios rep replied: “We love the Star Trek franchise, its fan base and the many possibilities for its future when the time is right.”]

517. Bill Peters - November 15, 2013

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/viacom-ceo-paramount-did-well-655990

He also touted planned franchise sequels. “We are in development on a number of sequels, includes Mission Impossible, Star Trek, G.I. Joe, as well as World War Z,” he said.

518. thebiggfrogg - November 16, 2013

Hollywood: lemmings off a cliff. Serves them right. I think Trek will do better without the pressures of having to deliver supermongoboffo box office. Focus on the story and not the spectacle. Besides, tens of millions to film Kirk and Scotty dangling from the scaffolding of a brewery?

519. Captain Slow - November 16, 2013

@ 518 thebiggfrogg

That scene was actually shot against a greenscreen. The brewery was all CG at that point.

520. DiscoSpock - November 16, 2013

Comics are not canon.

And Bob Orci is not in a position to be defining Canon. JJ, possibly, but Orci is certainly not in the leader’s seat at this point in time.

521. Cervantes - November 16, 2013

@ Ahmed #491 – Hmmm…despite the way J.J. worded his statement, the vibe I’m getting is that CBS just aren’t interested in doing a *’nu-timeline’-set* ‘Trek’ show…and that the CBS Studios rep was perhaps meaning that they are waiting till the time is right for one in the future…once J.J. and co.’s versions are out of the way eventually! Hey, it’s one ‘theory’ anyway…and one that wouldn’t surprise me if true.

As far as this whole issue of ‘canon’ goes that some are getting heated up about, I find it’s best to just cherry-pick my own ‘personal canon’ in certain things I like. It’s sometimes easier to do that than get overly upset when various writers or directors carelessly contradict certain aspects of past franchises I like…or take them in directions I really don’t care for.

Trying to retroactively come up with convoluted ‘pseudo explanations’ to explain away weird/lazy discrepancies and contradictions in some shows or movies can be frustrating…but I certainly understand the need to do so by some fans. Personally, I find simply ‘imagining’ that J.J.’s movies (including the nu-‘elderly Spock’ featured in them) are set in a totally separate, ‘alternate universe’ to the TOS-universe stuff works well enough for me to re-watch them without worrying about any of the ‘issues’ they throw up… I’m lucky that’s enough to satisfy me, as I know how annoying it must be for those that desperately want the ‘current’ movies to tie-in-better with the long-running ‘Trek’ history seen in the past. Maybe J.J. and co.s supposed ‘timeline alteration’ will eventually be ‘re-set’ in some way? ‘Time’ will tell, I guess… :)

Anyway, you only have to look at the likes of Ridley Scott’s ‘Prometheus’ to see how things can be mangled from what you may have originally ‘imagined’ for yourself… – I don’t care what that movie shows…I choose *not* to ‘believe’ that the actual fossilised ‘Space Jockey’ in ‘Alien’ was merely a damned baldy-headed ‘humanoid’ in a ‘spacesuit’!!

Hell, even Lucas continued to mess up/conradict his own creation with the likes of ‘Leia’ somehow originally remembering quite a bit of stuff about her ‘birth’ mother, even though she was then shown to just be a ‘newborn’ baby when ‘Padme’ died! Well you can’t fool me George, as I choose to believe in Adywan’s ‘Star Wars Revisited’ version where Han *still* shoots Greedo first! Like it should *always* be, lol. That’s another example of my own ‘personal canon’ right there, though others mileage may differ. Heck, I could ‘choose’ to end my ‘Trek canon’ at the point ‘The Undiscovered Country’ movie ended if I wanted…but luckily I can just ‘imagine’ that anything that came afterwards was just part of the separate J.J.-verse too!

I guess what I’m trying to say is that there’s *always* likely to be things to nit-pick about ongoing incarnations of stuff you like…especially if made by differing directors/writers (although my examples above show that the ‘original’ creator can do ‘questionable’ stuff too)…and it’s our right as individuals (and fans overall) to do so if we’re passionate enough about it all. It doesn’t necessarily make our viewpoints right or wrong…just ‘different’. And none of us should be told to leave the premises if our views don’t jive with someone else’s viewpoint on matters as trivial as ‘Star Trek’ at the end of the day. I may *think* someone’s a bonehead for not believing as I do on certain aspects of these shows/movies, but I certainly respect their right to continue to be one on here!

522. Phil - November 16, 2013

@512. As much as I’d love to say it’s an original idea, it’s not – I’ve spotted it on a few of the parody pages who have also made the connection.

Captain Grab Ass also fits, but a few people find that offensive for some reason…

523. dmduncan - November 16, 2013

My advice is to give honest feedback, not false readings. Groupthink thrives in an environment where the feedback is not truthful.

But you don’t have to be nasty in how you say things.

524. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

@503. Dave H

” Until we hear differently, JJ is the closest thing for Trek production leadership to Roddenberry right now. Orci is one of three producers on Star Trek that reports to JJ, and is also on the writing team that reports to JJ.

If you can confirming anything the refutes this, I am all ears?”

Abrams is way too busy with Star Wars, he doesn’t have time to deal with stuff related to Trek on daily basis.

Bob is the one who is meeting with potential directors as it was reported weeks ago.
http://trekweb.com/stories.php?aid=5273184314332&topBrowse=all

His role is clearly bigger than just a writer or a producer. Perhaps Paramount promoted him to an executive producer position.

525. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

@ 504. K-7 – November 15, 2013

“Ahmed,
You are defending the Khan comics and Orci now? Huh? Weren’t you the guy who went viral on Bob on the Internet two months back by saying:
..
So now you support comics related to this same plot you supposedly severely rejected all over the public Internet? wtf???”

I’m not supporting the comics, I’m simply stating that Bob said on this site that the comics are canon unless they were overruled by the movies. And since Bob is the writer of the movies & the overseer of the comics, then his opinion matter when it come to that, not yours.

And you know that you could dislike something & in the same time state facts about the same thing that you dislike, right ?

526. dmduncan - November 16, 2013

511. Vultan – November 15, 2013

I’m good, dmduncan. How are you?

***

Oh, good, man. Been an extremely interesting year for me.

527. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

@ 507. Red Dead Ryan – November 15, 2013

“I find it interesting that Ahmed and TrekMadeMeWonder, two guys who dislike STID, continue to offer their opinions on the subject instead of just moving on.
I’m not sure what they’re hoping to accomplish here???
….
Ahmed, TrekMadeMeWonder, and other anti-nuTrekkers: This is the proper way of dealing with a topic that isn’t your cup of tea. Either that, or just keep quiet.”

RDR, you should move to China. You will find lot of people there who share your dislike for freedom of speech. You will be among your peers, share one thought & one thought only. No more arguments or discussions or anything that disturb your peace of mind.

Here are the links:

Chinese embassy in DC
http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/visas/

Chinese Consulate in LA
http://losangeles.china-consulate.org/eng/visa/chinavisa/

528. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

@ 521. Cervantes – November 16, 2013

“@ Ahmed #491 – Hmmm…despite the way J.J. worded his statement, the vibe I’m getting is that CBS just aren’t interested in doing a *’nu-timeline’-set* ‘Trek’ show…and that the CBS Studios rep was perhaps meaning that they are waiting till the time is right for one in the future…once J.J. and co.’s versions are out of the way eventually! Hey, it’s one ‘theory’ anyway…and one that wouldn’t surprise me if true.”

Interesting theory.

529. dmduncan - November 16, 2013

Yeah, JJ is not interested in being Trek Master. He created a mess and left Bob Orci to try and clean it up. Bob is THE Trek fan on that team of guys and he can’t make all the decisions; based on Bob’s TV work, which I like much better than JJ’s, I’d say that if Bob were making all the important decisions (important from a fan’s perspective), then we’d have a different sequel right now.

Also agree that we’re not obligated to look at the comics as canon. I mean they are still interesting to clue us in to what they are currently thinking, but it’s hard for me to see what they’re doing in them right now as anything but damage control—as trying cleaning up the aftermath of a bad Abrams idea that reached critical mass.

The comics are patchwork on a leaky wall.

530. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

Roberto Orci and Mike Johnson on Star Trek Countdown to Darkness Comic Book Mini Series, Talk Canon and Farewell to Prime Timeline

Bob, what’s the overall writing/story philosophy for non-film Trek endeavors in the J.J.-verse. What’s the approach?

Orci: The approach is to ignore the medium and focus on the story. Don’t make a distinction between comic and film and anything else — and just focus on making it Star Trek.

Is there anything in the other Trek comics related to the film that we may have missed already?

Johnson: There are bunch of little hints that we’ve put in the ongoing Star Trek comics series that Bob is overseeing. None of them are the kind of thing that can spoil anything in the movie, but the idea is that, like the original Countdown, you can go back and read them and say “Hey! They totally set that up in the comics months before!” It’s been sneaky fun putting them in there.

How canon is this?

Orci: We get asked that a lot, and it’s our understanding that canon is that which is filmed. As a strict Constitutionalist, I don’t support a change in the definition of canon during my tenure. Perhaps future courts can take up the issue, but in the meantime the comics are as close to canon as you can get without being on film.

http://trekweb.com/articles/2013/01/24/Roberto-Orci-and-Mike-Johnson-on-Star-Trek-Countdown-to-Darkness-Comic-Book-Mini-Series-Talk-Canon-and-Farewell-to-Prime-Timeline.shtml

====================================
Exclusive: Orci Says Star Trek TV Talks Getting Real + Declares Movie Tie-in Comics & Game As Canon July 17, 2012

TrekMovie.com: When I was at E3 I spoke to a VP from Paramount who said the upcoming Star Trek movie game is canon from their perspective. So will you guys just wave the canon wand over the game, comic books and upcoming comic books that you are involved with?

Roberto Orci: Well I always say that I arrived in Star Trek where the rules of what is canon had already been established.

TrekMovie.com: Yes, but some of the exceptions were that extended universe things done by creators of filmed canon were also canon. My argument also is that in previous times there was a plethora of filmed material to fill out the canon of the prime universe. So the extended universe stuff was a little bit extra on the side. With the new movie universe there may be just three feature films, but there could also be an animated show, the comic books, games. In the end there will more extended universe, which is more like how it has been with Star Wars. And the way Lucas handles canon there is that the EU stuff is canon, but the films reserve the right to contradict and trump them. So in your case it would mean that everything in the game, comic books, etc you have overseen, like “Star Trek Countdown” for example, is canon except for anything that was contradicted by the movies. I thought that would be an interesting model and the difference with previous Trek is that
you guys are overseeing all of this. These rules aren’t written in stone from my perspective and I think a lot of fans would like to hear you say, “yes these are all the adventures of Kirk, Spock and the gang and it is all canon and all ties together into a single universe.” Again, with the caveat that you reserve the right to contradict any of it in a future movie and that would trump. That’s my pitch to you.

Roberto Orci: OK, based on that then with you Anthony Pascale as a witness, I hereby declare anything that we oversee to be canon.

http://trekmovie.com/2012/07/17/exclusive-orci-says-star-trek-tv-talks-getting-real-declares-movie-tie-in-comics-game-as-canon/

531. Bill Peters - November 16, 2013

Found the Idea that Studio Insiders don’t want to oversaturarte the Trek
Market.

Industry insiders speculate that CBS doesn’t want to jeopardize the current success of the rebooted film franchise by over saturating the market. With a new Star Trek film in the pipeline for 2016, fans may be waiting awhile before a new television series goes hits the airwaves.

532. Keachick - November 16, 2013

Bob Orci is also his own person. He and Alex Kurtzman set up a screenwriting partnership, K/O Paper Products, quite a number of years back, possibly(?) even before JJ set up his Bad Robot production company. As K/O Paper Products, they have written scripts for a number of movie and television episodes for various series which have nothing to do with JJ Abrams and Bad Robot. One of their later films is People Like Us.

Paramount is the one occupying the “chair” in these latest ST movie iterations, not JJ and Bad Robot or K/O Paper Products. Whether Paramount have “earned their way into the chair”, well it’s kinda moot really…It is therefore Paramount who can say who can do what, how, when, not necessarily JJ Abrams and his Bad Robot company. If Paramount is happy to have Bob Orci co-author comics relating to this alternate ST universe, then that is their prerogative and it has nothing to do with JJ Abrams.

Ahmed is right. I also recall that Bob Orci did say (on a trekmovie thread some time back) that these comics can be considered canon unless later overwritten by what might be seen in a subsequent Star Trek film. Film trumps all!

There is damage control necessary, just like there is no timeline in need of “fixing”. STID is just fine!!!

533. Red Dead Ryan - November 16, 2013

I’m pretty sure the only people who can make comics and novels canon are the ones who own it all — CBS and Paramount. Until we hear from them, then we have to take Bob’s word with a fairly big grain of salt.

After all, Bob and Alex are involved with Trek only for a limited time, and eventually someone else will take over. Those guys may end up having a different perspective on all of this.

Legally, I doubt Bob’s proclamation holds any sway.

For now — the ultimate authority remains CBS/Paramount. And so far, they have considered comics to NOT be canon — this we know for a fact.

534. Dave H - November 16, 2013

@530

Orci and Mike Johson don’t get to make that call. Neither are leading the franchise.

535. Dave H - November 16, 2013

“Paramount is the one occupying the “chair” in these latest ST movie iterations, not JJ and Bad Robot or K/O Paper Products. ”

Exactly. Even more reason showing why Orci is not in a position to define canon.

536. Garak's Pride - November 16, 2013

I agree with Keachick and Dav H

If only Paramount has “the chair” right now, then none of these guys really has the standing to re-define Gene Rodenberry’s definition on canon. Perhaps maybe JJ might be the only person who people might be willing to listen to a redefinition of Rodenberry’s canon, but certainly not staff in lower positions, like Orci, or 3rd party contractors, like Mike Johnson.

537. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

Then why Bob is saying that over & over ? Unless he know for sure that Paramount will back him up.

Also, I didn’t read any comment by CBS or Paramount that say otherwise, if there a link where someone said that, please share with us.

538. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

@ 536. Garak’s Pride – November 16, 2013

“but certainly not staff in lower positions, like Orci,”

Bob is in charge of choosing the next director, I won’t call that a low position.

539. P.A.R. - November 16, 2013

Can I have the 20 million difference then?

540. Captain Slow - November 16, 2013

Bob Orci has always been an executive producer on the Trek movies. Just look at the credits on Memory Alpha. As the EP, writer of the movies, and overseer of the comics, I think he has more of a say in how canon the comics are than anyone on this site. Just because some people don’t like them it doesn’t mean that they can be dismissed.

541. Jonboc - November 16, 2013

The very idea of people arguing over what parts of fiction constitutes “official fiction” in a fictitious universe is amusing the hell out of me. lol I love you guys…but c’mon…really?

542. Phil - November 16, 2013

Somewhere in the hills of Hollywood there is a monastery, devoted to maintaining the sacred relics of the canon. Shrouded in mystery, once a year, a group of people, only know as ‘the Few’ descend on the ancient structure to seek the wisdom of the Great Bird, to chart the course of the universe only as it exists in the imagination. Sequestered away, with only brewed drink and local exotic herbs for sustenance, that faithful await, honoring the time honored tradition of watching for the herbal smoke to arise from the monasteries’ chimney, because only then, will we know that the Great Bird has appeared and bestowed the sacred knowledge of Canon on the Few. The faithful rejoice, knowing that all is right in the imaginary universe, as the anticipation grows for the wisdom of the Great Bird will soon again be shared among the faithful as photonic images will once again grace the land…….

543. Aurore - November 16, 2013

“On Trekmovie.com, co-producer and co-screenwriter Bob Orci addressed Khan’s casting: ‘Basically, as we went through the casting process and we began honing in on the themes of the movie, it became uncomfortable for me etc…'”
__________

Yes…

There’s an article titled :

‘Star Trek: Khan’ Finally Answers Why Benedict Cumberbatch Was So White In ‘Darkness’ :

“…In the original ‘Star Trek’ TV series, Khan wasn’t Caucasian or even Latino: He was from Northern India. In the comic, we learn that Noonien Singh was an orphan from the streets of India, kidnapped into a eugenics program and built into a super-smart super-strong super-human. By the end of the first issue of the comic, Khan has led his fellow eugenics-fueled orphans into a rebellion — but he’s still very obviously Indian in heritage.

How Khan’s ethnicity will change from Indian to Latino to Caucasian is obviously a big question the series is going to answer — though we’re not sure how literally whitewashing an ethnic character is going to damp down any outcry….”

Here is another excerpt from the article :

“…Now, long after the cries of ‘whitewashing’ have died down to a whimper, a new in-canon comic book released this week seeks to explain just how Khan went from Latino, to very, very Caucasian…”

…The “cries of ” whitewashing are said to ” have died down to a whimper ” and yet, apparently, the comic is going to take the time to answer a question I personally never asked ; how an Indian character portrayed by an actor often chosen to play different ethnicities a long time ago [ he was Japanese in Sayonara ( 1957 ), for example ], went from “Latino “, to British…

This is problematic to me ; Khan never was “Latino “…as far as I’m concerned.

Ricardo Montalbán, who was Mexican born and of Spanish descent played an Indian character named Khan Noonien Singh.

But, as I said before, I am curious to see what the “close-to-canon” justification for the…”change in ethnicity “… will be.

( Link if authorized, here ) :

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1715752/star-trek-khan-comic-darkness.jhtml

544. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

@541. Phil

LOL

545. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

‘Gravity’ Rises to $500 Million at Worldwide Box Office

Alfonso Cuaron’s “Gravity” is expected to cross the $500 million mark globally on Saturday, becoming one of the most successful sci-fi movies of all-time and the biggest box office hit of both Sandra Bullock and George Clooney’s careers.

The 3D sci-fi smash, which is being tipped for a run at the Oscars, has earned a boffo $235.9 million domestically and over $261 million overseas. Last month, “Gravity” became the highest-grossing live-action feature in October history with over $400 million worldwide.

http://variety.com/2013/film/news/gravity-rises-to-500-million-at-worldwide-box-office-1200842131/

546. Red Shirt Diaries - November 16, 2013

” we learn that Noonien Singh was an orphan from the streets of India”

This fits perfectly with my earlier posts looking at the Punjabi diaspora in the mid-20th century to Mexico and other countries. If he was an orphan in India, then based on what I detailed previously, there is sufficient historical evidence to support his parentage to be be one Indian parent and one Mexican parent. Thus, this explains him being from India, and the partially Hispanic looks of the Montelban Khan.

And these comics do nothing to confirm the identity of Khan’s parents — so this all fits completely now.

547. Garak's Pride - November 16, 2013

Red Shirt,

I agree. This new information from the comics seems to further confirm your scenario concerning Khan’s parents being a mixed marriage — Indian and Hispanic. By saying he’s and orphan, your arguments cannot be disproven by anyone here. And applying Ocaam’s Razor, and noting the partially Hispanic appearance of Khan by Montelban, this, for me, confirms what you are saying beyond a reasonable doubt.

Well done! You’ve solved part of the race riddle of Khan here.

548. Dave H - November 16, 2013

Red Shirt,

You are on the right track — logical, historical, and good horse sense.

A slight adjustment — the orphan Khan’s parent’s could have been “Luso-Indians,” which is a huge international race of people that are descendants of mixed race marriages between Indians and Portuguese, from when Portugal ruled India. Here is photo from the American association of this group:

http://www.luso-american.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/IMG_6003-e1382647930599.jpg

This group provides an appearance that also crosses over Indian and Hispanic appearances — so it also would fit with Montelban being cast to play the part of the original Khan.

549. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 16, 2013

All,

Althought I still cannot accept this comics as canon, I don find it very interesting that the “orphan origin” for Khan that is in these comics supports fully the mixed marriage scenarios that support Montelban being cast as Khan.

It’s unfortunate, but mixed marriage kids predominate many orphanages in countried like India, especially back in the mid-20th century. In fact, I would say an orphan from the 50’s or 60’s in India would more likely be a mixed marriage kid than an full-blooded Indian…thus further supporting Red Shirts and others’ research here.

I think we are at the point where we can put this to be now. Case closed.

The only remaining question then is how did he become white — that will be more dubious, but I guess Orci and Johnson are going to try to give some face-saving, probably hard to believe, reason for this in their non-canon little comic strip.

550. Aurore - November 16, 2013

I am not really familiar with what Khan’s backstory has been so far.
Others are, though:

“89. Greg Cox – July 20, 2010
Thanks again for all the kinds words, everybody. And…* I’m really relieved to hear, even years after the fact, that you’re happy with how I handled the Sikh and Indian material. I tried very hard to get that right . . . and still have an entire shelf of books on India gathering dust in my office!”

http://trekmovie.com/2010/07/18/exclusive-next-star-trek-comic-is-all-about-khans-exile-details-covers/

I know ; this was then …and, this is now…

Besides, from what I understand, and unless I am mistaken, it is worth noting that the author of the post I copy-pasted above loved the sequel together with Mr. Cumberbatch’s performance.

As for me, as I stated @ 542, out of mere curiosity, I’ll pay close attention to what will be said on Khan’s ethnicity…
________

*
(Edit mine).

551. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 16, 2013

“put this to bed now”

552. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 16, 2013

Aurore,

Thanks for the Greg Cox piece.

I salute Greg Cox. Here was someone who spent a lot of time and care to try to create a Khan story that fit with both our real history and Star Trek history. This guy did his homework, and gave us those two meaty ADULT SCIENCE FICTION NOVELS. If Greg is reading this — THANK YOU, SIR.

So now, instead of the same care and research, we get these intellectually lazy little comics books that completely negate Greg Cox’s work, and which will not apparently give us some bullshit reason/excuse to support the claim — THAT I DON’T BELIEVE — that they needed to cast a white Khan for “terrorist affirmative action” reasons (they cast BC only after Del Toro turned down the role — this is a fact).

I love Orci, and look forward to ST-20016, but I am not buying this Khan whitewash/political correctness excuse making, and I’m not going to spend a dime on these intellectually-lazy comics.

553. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

@548. MJ

“The only remaining question then is how did he become white”

Easy, he went to same doctor that turned Michael Jackson into a white guy :)

554. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 16, 2013

@552

Khan is kind of a “one-person Mod Squad” these days. :-))

555. K-7 - November 16, 2013

Wouldn’t it be cool to have a Star Trek reality TV spinoff, where three college age Khans — one Indian, one Mexican, and one Hispanic, share a dorm room…put in on MTV

556. K-7 - November 16, 2013

correction:

Wouldn’t it be cool to have a Star Trek reality TV spinoff, where three college age Khans — one Indian, one Mexican, and one WHITE, share a dorm room…put in on MTV

557. K-7 - November 16, 2013

MTV presents: “Khandominium”

558. DiscoSpock - November 16, 2013

@MJ “I love Orci, and look forward to ST-20016, but I am not buying this Khan whitewash/political correctness excuse making, and I’m not going to spend a dime on these intellectually-lazy comics.”

MJ, I agree completely.

The Cox adult Trek novels versus these silly comics is not even a contest for me.

559. Bill Peters - November 16, 2013

http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-interview-karl-urban-talks-star-trek-and-almost-human

What do you want to see for Bones next film?

URBAN: Funnily enough, it’s simple things I want to see. I’d like to beam somewhere. I’d like to beam somewhere and see that evolution of the Kirk-Spock-Bones triumvirate. I’d like to see Bones take on some of the bits that DeForest Kelley was able to execute so wonderfully well for 40-odd years.

Some fans loved Star Trek Into Darkness and others felt it should not have had the Khan elements. To your thinking, what worked and what didn’t?

URBAN: For me, I guess what really worked was the character development. I feel like if the first movie was establishing these characters, this one was about throwing them in the deep end. I really enjoyed seeing the beginnings of that triumvirate between Bones, Spock and Kirk, which was so central to the original show. I’m certainly looking forward to seeing where that goes. I honestly have to say that there wasn’t anything about Into Darkness that didn’t work for me. I thought that the writers did a fantastic job. Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof… when you’re given such rich dialogue to work with, it just makes my life so enjoyable.

560. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

@ 559. Bill Peters – November 16, 2013

“URBAN: Funnily enough, it’s simple things I want to see. I’d like to beam somewhere. I’d like to beam somewhere and see that evolution of the Kirk-Spock-Bones triumvirate. I’d like to see Bones take on some of the bits that DeForest Kelley was able to execute so wonderfully well for 40-odd years.”

Urban nailed it again.

Thanks for the link, Bill.

561. Garak's Pride - November 16, 2013

All, to summarize:

1. Khan’s origin is based on on mixed marriage parents (Hispanic-Punjabi or perhaps Luso-Indians) — and Khan was born in the Punjab region of India. Actors playing Khan should thus be either Indian or Hispanic.

2. Greg Cox did the research and got the Khan Story right. Roberto Orci did not. Reward those who do the research and care enough to get it all right withing canon — that would be Greg Cox.

3. Comics ARE NOT canon, and, in any case, Roberto Orci is not in a position where he get’s to make that call. If JJ Abrams himself confirms in a public statement, then the comics are now canon, then we will reconsider this.

562. Aurore - November 16, 2013

“…I love Orci, and look forward to ST-20016, but I am not buying this Khan whitewash/political correctness excuse making, and I’m not going to spend a dime on these intellectually-lazy comics.”
______

Please, leave the “mean-spiritedness” to me ; I never was interested in Star Trek comic books or novels. For a very long time, I did not know they existed, actually…

Today, I only read reviews about them ( every now and then ).

One thing is for certain ; Greg Cox is more open-minded than I will ever be :

“45. Greg Cox – July 19, 2010

Thanks for all the kind words about ‘To Reign In Hell.’ As far as I know, this new comic book is NOT an adaptation of my novel, but I suppose there’s always room for another take on Khan’s life.

I’m definitely going to have to check the comic book version out!”

http://trekmovie.com/2010/07/18/exclusive-next-star-trek-comic-is-all-about-khans-exile-details-covers/

…Well…I never pretended to be perfect, anyway….

:)

563. Red Dead Ryan - November 16, 2013

Red Shirt Diaries deserves a lot of credit for his research. His conclusion that Khan is half-Indian and half-Hispanic or even Luso-Indian is very credible, and most likely the truth.

Mixed racial background.

Orphaned as a young child in India.

———– CASE CLOSED!!!! —————–

564. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 16, 2013

RDR, I agree completely.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

563. Red Dead Ryan – November 16, 2013
Red Shirt Diaries deserves a lot of credit for his research. His conclusion that Khan is half-Indian and half-Hispanic or even Luso-Indian is very credible, and most likely the truth.

Mixed racial background.

Orphaned as a young child in India.

———– CASE CLOSED!!!! —————–

565. Aurore - November 16, 2013

“….Khan is half-Indian and half-Hispanic or even Luso-Indian is very credible, and most likely the truth.

Mixed racial background.

Orphaned as a young child in India.

———– CASE CLOSED!!!! —————–”

***********

“Case closed ” for the fellow fans who subscribe to this theory, evidently.

I don’t.

But, of course, should there be a review of the comic presenting such a theory, I would then know the “close-to-canon” justification for the whitewashing of Khan.

“At last “.

566. dmduncan - November 16, 2013

541. Jonboc – November 16, 2013

The very idea of people arguing over what parts of fiction constitutes “official fiction” in a fictitious universe is amusing the hell out of me. lol I love you guys…but c’mon…really?

***

Really. Trekkies are like self-flagellating medieval monks.

567. dmduncan - November 16, 2013

563. Red Dead Ryan – November 16, 2013

Red Shirt Diaries deserves a lot of credit for his research. His conclusion that Khan is half-Indian and half-Hispanic or even Luso-Indian is very credible, and most likely the truth.

***

I’m with Aurore.

Truth statements don’t apply to fictional characters except that when what is said about them in the fiction are statements about which it is possible to be wrong when you repeat them.

If it is true that Kirk is captain of the Enterprise, then it is false to say he is not.

You can satisfy yourselves with any theory you prefer, but no one is obligated to adopt the theory that satisfies you, right? The theory doesn’t satisfy me, for example, because Ricardo Montalban is playing a character who is Punjabi and Sikh. I therefore ignore his Mexican accent in much the same way that I ignore that they put static posters of space imagery on the bridge panels to create the illusion of monitors that display presumably relevant information—which is utterly cheap and unconvincing. But I play along.

Now, if I was remaking Star Trek with a bigger budget I wouldn’t put those same space posters on the bridge to try and convince a new audience that they represent the height of 23rd century technology.

Hell no, I’d make them functional. Similarly, I wouldn’t duplicate the conservative casting processes of the 1960’s by putting a Latino with an accent in the role of a Punjabi Sikh.

So to me It’s not fun when you take things so seriously that you come up with theories like that. TOS has got such cheap stuff in it that it’s actually part of the fun of watching to pretend that it’s real even though the illusion wears thin in so many ways in so many places.

So taking Montalban’s accent as Khan’s accent is…sorry guys, TOO serious for me. It’s treating the pretend we have to do when we watch TOS as a problem we have to get rid of, and it’s not a problem, really, because I DON’T think you should try and forget you are watching a flawed 1960’s TV series when you watch TOS. THAT is what it REALLY is.

In 10 years time we may get yet ANOTHER reboot of Khan in which it is shown that Khan is the son of a Punjabi mother and a Punjabi father.

You can’t then accuse the authors of such a work of LYING or spreading misinformation about Khan because you came up with a theory in 2013 to explain why Ricardo Montalban speaks Khan’s lines with a very non Punjabi accent.

That’s hilarious.

568. Cervantes - November 16, 2013

@ Jonboc #541 – Indeed! :)

@ Garak’s Pride #561 – While I certainly agree with the points in the first two summary statements in your post, here’s my own take on the points-of-view you’ve summed-up in your third summary –

Whether it comes from a comics-storyline or not, I’ll personally be more than happy to accept a good and plausible ‘explanation’ for why nu-‘Khan’s character turned suddenly turned out to have a ‘white’ ethnicity in the STID movie…*if* I happen to like it enough.

It will then certainly become part of my own ‘personal canon’, regardless of whoever states it’s NOT ‘official Trek canon’ or not…and regardless of it coming from an ‘Expanded Universe’-type ‘spin-off’ comic. I’ll just be content if the eventual idea being proposed is one that satisfies me well enough to smooth this particular character/casting inconsistency out a little, seeing as there wasn’t any kind of ‘explanation’ presented in the movie itself. Not that it’s a big deal either way to me, as I’ve ‘resolved’ it for myself anyway as described in post #521. ;)

And the other thing in the third summary I’d like to comment on is why should J.J.’s opinion on whether the comic storylines are ‘official Trek canon’ or not be considered any more relevant than Orci’s view of them? Or any more relevant than *anyone else’s* view who’s contributed in some small way to the ‘Trek’ legacy over the years, if it comes to that?…

…In fact, since the ‘current’ makers *didn’t* come up with an onscreen ‘explanation’ to begin with, then why should *any* of those involved in STID be deemed to be ‘right’ in saying whether any ‘spin-off’ comic’s storyline constitutes *the* actual ‘official explanation’ for nu-‘Khan’s appearance or not?

I remain interested to see whatever ‘explanation’ is concocted, but as I’ve already ‘resolved’ things in a certain way for myself as described in post #521, it ‘aint no big deal to me either way. ;)

569. Vultan - November 16, 2013

#566

The first Star Trek convention:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7wc55oXWf8

570. Garak's Pride - November 16, 2013

@568

“And the other thing in the third summary I’d like to comment on is why should J.J.’s opinion on whether the comic storylines are ‘official Trek canon’ or not be considered any more relevant than Orci’s view of them? Or any more relevant than *anyone else’s* view who’s contributed in some small way to the ‘Trek’ legacy over the years, if it comes to that?…”

You are asking the wrong question here. The question is, who today, has a leadership position in the Star Trek franchise to be able to dictate unilateral changes in the definition of canon as set by the Star Trek creator, Gene Roddenberry?

Even though I don’t like him, I would argue that Rick Berman in the 1990’s through early 2000’s held that mantle.

Now, if you want to claim to JJ doesn’t really hold that mantle now, and that it just as easily might go to Orci or even some fans, then what that really says to me is that there is NO ONE CURRENTLY who in the franchise leadership position who can change the official definition of canon. And if that is the case, then we are left with the existing official definition of canon until somebody else is cemented in place as the new Roddenberry/Berman figure.

571. dmduncan - November 16, 2013

569. Vultan – November 16, 2013

Funny.

572. MJB - November 16, 2013

569. Vultan

VERY funny!!!! :)

573. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 16, 2013

“And if that is the case, then we are left with the existing official definition of canon until somebody else is cemented in place as the new Roddenberry/Berman figure.”

Exactly. Orci does not get to dictate to all of us changes to the definition of official canon.

Comics are not canon. Neither are Mr. Spock lunchboxes. None of the kiddie stuff is.

Perhaps in five years, if Orci is the lead guy, overseeing a new Trek TV series as well as the movies, then he could become the successor to Berman and Roddenberry….only then would he be able to dictate to us changes in canon doctrine.

574. Ahmed - November 16, 2013

@ 570. Garak’s Pride – November 16, 2013

“Now, if you want to claim to JJ doesn’t really hold that mantle now, and that it just as easily might go to Orci or even some fans, then what that really says to me is that there is NO ONE CURRENTLY who in the franchise leadership position who can change the official definition of canon.”

Of the group that gave us the NuTrek, Bob Orci is the most prominent among them when it come to Star Trek. Abrams is too busy with his far away galaxy. Kurtzman doesn’t do much interviews or talk to the media or the fans as much as Bob.

But I agree with you that there is no one “officially” in charge of the franchise in the same way that Roddenberry/Berman were.

575. Fro Joe Koolaid - November 16, 2013

Star Trek IS the top tier. Everything else is just something to pass the time when you’re not watching Star Trek.

576. Keachick - November 16, 2013

Bob Orci is an official writer for these Star Trek movies, and obviously anything he may write of a literary nature regarding the alternate timeline these particular set of movies tell. Paramount, who also own the movie making part of the Star Trek franchise, have been his employers from the get-go via JJ Abrams and his Bad Robot production company. Therefore, Bob Orci is in a position as an employee/representative of the franchise owner, Paramount, to say what may constitute Star Trek alternate universe canon or not (in any medium).

I cannot believe the stupidity and arrogance of some of these posts. None of us here have any right to “correct” Bob Orci’s rightful assertion about the comics he co-authors and where they stand canon-wise. We are not official writers (or anything else) for these Star Trek iterations. Bob Orci IS. Please show him the respect that is his due and RESPECT is due him.

577. K-7 - November 16, 2013

#576.

“I cannot believe the stupidity and arrogance of some of these posts”

Nice!

Well here’s some canon for you, then — I propose we put you in clown suit and shoot you out of a “cannon” at the circus.

578. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 17, 2013

Rose,

I’ll tell you what arrogant stupidity is. It’s Bad Robot putting a lid on any adult nuTrek novels being published. They have completely stopped all writing and publishing of any adult Star Trek novels based on the new universe. In, fact, for three years now Bad Robot has prevented Pocket Books from publishing four originally commissioned nuTrek novels that have been fully completed and edited, and were suppose to come out in the year after ST-2009. These novels are:

– Star Trek – Refugees, by Alan Dean Foster

– Seek a New World, by Chris Bennett

– More Beautiful than Death, by David Mack

– The Hazard of Concealing, by Greg Cox

These novels may never see the light of day now because Bad Robot doesn’t want anyone besides the chosen few and IDW comics playing in their nuTrek sandbox.

They are literally doing a “Farenheit 451″ number on nu Trek writing by established Trek authors. It’s a travesty, and Orci should step in and do something about it if he is really now the lead guy that you claim he is.

I have posted about this topic every so often over the past 4 years, and Bob has never once responded to my posts on this topic. I find that very telling that he chooses not a address this — confirmation by avoidance.

579. DiscoSpock - November 17, 2013

MJ,

The reason they are putting a lid on adult Star Trek novels is simple. Bad Robot doesn’t get a financial cut from the novels, but they have a special arrangement with IDW to get a cut of the comics — Bob Orci in particular.

So they have deliberately shut down all Trek novel writing essentially forever for nuTrek, and all we get is the comics.

They are essentially forcing us to buy the comics as the only way to get any stories about the new universe.

580. Red Shirt Diaries - November 17, 2013

Bob Orci,

Can you please address these issues that have been brought to our attention related to Bad Robot not permitting any of the great Trek fiction writers to develop Star Trek novels in the new universe?

581. Cervantes - November 17, 2013

@ K-7 # 577 – Ouch! Ha, ha. You should have the last word on this whole ‘canon’ issue as far as I’m concerned. :)

I await the eventual ‘Khan’ comic ‘explanation’ thread with interest…

582. Captain Slow - November 17, 2013

@ 579 DiscoSpock

Personally I’d rather have the comics than the novels. The synopses I’d read for those novels didn’t really sound that exciting and all of the Star Trek novels I’ve read in the past have tended to be rather self-indulgent.

I know people like MJ think that the comics are as intellectual as lunchboxes but there is room in this world for multiple opinions. I enjoy them, I don’t even know if he’s read them. And to use one of his arguments from the past, you cannot criticize something unless you’ve read/seen it.

583. dmduncan - November 17, 2013

Not everybody who reads books reads comics. I like comics, but comics just don’t provide the same experience that novels do. They are very different species and a lot of people want that difference.

So I agree with MJ. It’s kind of mind boggling that they would shut down an entire medium that there is a market for, and if it’s true that JJ is trying to funnel the market toward his bank account because JJ doesn’t get a cut of the novel action, well then that’s one more reason I hope for his severance from the franchise to become complete.

That just looks so petty, especially to fans who come here to contribute feedback for nothing in exchange but the hope of influencing which way the franchise goes.

Companies pay people a lot of money to accost mall shoppers with cheap prizes to give less feedback than we give for nothing, so it doesn’t sit well with me if it is true that he’s snatching at every penny he can get out of the franchise.

So what’s the deal? He doesn’t make enough money that he can’t afford to lose a little on the novels?

584. Captain Slow - November 17, 2013

@ 583 dmduncan

The only comic series I actually read are the IDW ones. I don’t care about superheroes or any of the others out there.

I’ve never seen any confirmation or even any indication that the novels were shutdown because of money. A long time ago Bob Orci had said here that he doesn’t actually get paid for his work on the comics.

On the subject of the difference in the experience, comics to me are closer to movies since they’e more visual.

What I meant earlier about Star Trek novels tending to be self-indulgent is that they seem to waste a lot of time trying to build the world and explain unimportant details about the technology in the same way that fan films often do.

585. dmduncan - November 17, 2013

584. Captain Slow – November 17, 2013

Well I’m talking about JJ and Bad Robot, not Bob and K/OPP, and I don’t know if it’s true either…that’s why I said “if it’s true…”

But it’s pathetic if true.

I don’t remember what the reason was why the books aren’t being published, but I know MJ is a reader of those things and he probably knows more about the reasons why than I do.

586. Curious Cadet - November 17, 2013

@584. Captain Slow,
“I’ve never seen any confirmation or even any indication that the novels were shutdown because of money.”

There are a lot of baseless, unsubstantiated, accusations being bandied about here lately.

587. Curious Cadet - November 17, 2013

@545 Ahmed,

Time for year-end predictions:

STID will finish domestically at #12 being beat out of its current #9 spot by Thor, Hunger Games, and the Hobbit, and therefore #13 worldwide. The wildcard will be internationally, as a few other December releases have the potential to do well in the foreign box office, dropping STID lower.

What’s interesting is that short of a Decemeber upset, STID will rank internationally exactly where ST09 did for the year. Domestically STID will take a comparative beating, dropping 5 places over ST09s finish for the year.

588. Ahmed - November 17, 2013

Here is Anthony Pascale report about the new novels:

===============================
Pocket Books ‘Holding Off’ On Star Trek Movie Tie-ins – 4 Novels Pulled From Summer 2010 January 14, 2010

This Summer Simon & Schuster’s Pocket Books was planning to release four new Star Trek novels set in the new timeline of the 2009 Star Trek movie. However, today Pocket Books has informed TrekMovie that the four novels were being removed from their schedule, they have also issued a statement explaining why.

A spokesperson for Simon & Schuster’s Pocket Books provided TrekMovie with the following statement explaining why the books were pulled:

“With last summer’s blockbuster STAR TREK movie, JJ Abrams created a new vibrant, layered version of the Star Trek universe. After careful consideration, we decided to hold off on telling new stories while JJ and his team continue to develop his vision.”

It is currently not known if and when they will be released. It is also not known if any other Star Trek books will replace the four movie tie-in novels, or if other books planned for the Fall will now move up into the Summer.

Apparently the four novels have mostly been written, but the decision does not appear to have anything to do with the books specifically, but the view that (for now) the team behind the movie should be the ones telling new stories for this new crew, especially stories set after the movie.

http://trekmovie.com/2010/01/14/pocket-books-holding-off-on-star-trek-movie-tie-ins-4-novels-pulled-from-summer-2010/

===============================

589. Curious Cadet - November 17, 2013

^^^^
Correction: STID’s current #8 spot, so it will likely finish at #11 domestically, only four down from ST09. (All numbers taken from Boxofficemojo)

590. dmduncan - November 17, 2013

I didn’t remember JJ Abrams’ name until it got connected to Star Trek and it isn’t my custom for my first assumption about a person to be the worst, especially not after he makes a movie that I love—ST.09.

But several things have really soured me on the guy both during and after STID.

I don’t know the reason for the novel lockout; hopefully someone will provide a link from Trekmovie that covers it. I didn’t look for it. But I DO recall The Wrap article. Apparently JJ got sick of Star Trek because he couldn’t be the one guy in control of its image across every medium.

http://www.thewrap.com/movies/article/how-web-star-trek-rights-killed-jj-abrams-grand-ambitions-91766

And that is flabbergasting to me—that he would want to halt the production of new material based on the old franchise. If JJ is worried about brand control then he ought to start with how his own brand is perceived.

The last two paragraphs of that article are telling:

“As for Disney’s grand “Star Wars” plan, it’s sounding an awful lot like the one Abrams once envisioned for “Star Trek.” There will be television properties, theme park rides and spin-off films all centered around the new trilogy that Abrams will oversee.”

“It’s a page borrowed from Disney’s exploitation of the Marvel comic books and if it works out, it should make Abrams very rich indeed.”

591. Red Dead Ryan - November 17, 2013

I believe this article gives the official expanation:

http://trekmovie.com/2010/01/14/pocket-books-holding-off-on-star-trek-movie-tie-ins-4-novels-pulled-from-summer-2010/

592. Red Dead Ryan - November 17, 2013

Bad Robot has done a good job rebooting “Star Trek” — but their marketing and public relations strategy have really been the sh!ts.

Hopefully, the next group of producers can learn from Bad Robot’s missteps and actually do a better job of connecting with the fans.

I mean, you just know that Disney/Bad Robot is going to really cater to “Star Wars” fans in a way that they didn’t with Trekkies in terms of merchandise, behind-the-scenes info, and other stuff.

593. Keachick - November 17, 2013

This was a discussion of what could constitute canon, not about how JJ Abrams apparently shut down the publication of certain novels. Once again, people use deflection as a way of not dealing with a reality.

The reality here is that Bob Orci, as a writer contracted, not just by Bad Robot but ultimately by Paramount itself, the actual owner of the movie franchise, is in a position to say whether what he co-authors, within a literary medium, could be deemed to be alternative universe Star Trek canon, until later overwritten by what might be told on subsequent film. Bob Orci can and does! The reason why Paramount has not commented on his assertion is because they don’t need to!

As for the why/why not re publication of the other novels referenced, he may not know. It was most likely not a call he could even make.

No, I do not need to shot out of any cannon.

The only ones attempting to “dictate” are some of the posters here. It is also a specious and irrelevant misdirection to put down the comic literary form as opposed to another literary medium, the novel. What one’s preference, when it comes to a literary form or audio-visual medium, is just that – individual preference and personal opinion. They have no bearing on whether Bob Orci can assert that the literary medium of his and his co-authors’ and illustrators’ choice, could constitute alternate universe ST canon.

No, I do not need to shot out of any cannon, but I do think that some of you need to go put it where the sun don’t shine! Howzat?!…:) or is it…:(?

594. Red Dead Ryan - November 17, 2013

Again — Bob Orci has no authority to declare the comics canon. That lies with CBS/Paramount — the companies who actually dole out the dough. In the past, they have said that only filmed material constitutes canon. Neither studio has said anything different of the new timeline comics, so it is clear that they aren’t canon. Bob Orci isn’t even in charge of Bad Robot — J.J Abrams is, and he is still going to be the producer on the third movie. It would be up to Abrams to go to Paramount and have the comics declared canon, but so far, he has shown no interest in doing so.

————————- CASE CLOSED!!!! ——————————————-

595. Keachick - November 17, 2013

Edit: meant to delete fourth paragraph, “No, I do not…”

596. Phil - November 17, 2013

Actually, I understand why the novels where shelved. Recall that the sequel was green-lit pretty much within days of Trek 09 hitting the big screen. I’m guessing that, considering that Lindloff started dropping Khan hints shortly after, that someone in marketing gave Bad Robot a call and asked them if there had been any development on the sequel story yet – there had to have been enough of an answer to the question to suggest that the next film was picking up shortly after the first one ended. That created enough concern in marketing that kicking out the novels created a continuity issue for the Bad Robot development team that they were put on hold. Further, because this Kirk is still on the Starfleet short leash, and in ‘on the job’ training there won’t be any novels – you can’t make movies where Kirk is discovering himself, is still the raw rookie, making mistakes, and have novels in the same time frame where he is a mature, Starfleet Captain….particularly in an environment where Bob Orci tends to consider published material as canon as well.

Basically, this was probably an unintended consequence of poor character development of young Kirk – if you portray Kirk as a schlub on-screen, he has to be in character in print as well.

597. Ahmed - November 17, 2013

@ 593. Red Dead Ryan – November 17, 2013

“Again — Bob Orci has no authority to declare the comics canon. That lies with CBS/Paramount — the companies who actually dole out the dough. In the past, they have said that only filmed material constitutes canon. Neither studio has said anything different of the new timeline comics, so it is clear that they aren’t canon.”

Not correct, neither companies overruled what Bob said about the comics. Until they issue an statement, then you can’t just ignore what Bob said because you don’t share his view that comics are canon.

598. Keachick - November 17, 2013

#593 – Once again, how do you know that Bob Orci has not been given the authority to declare the comics canon? I do not believe that it is necessarily up to JJ Abrams and Bad Robot as JJ Abrams has not actually written either of two AU Star Trek movie scripts.

JJ Abrams owns and is (obviously) head of his production company, Bad Robot. His company has been contracted by the franchise owner, Paramount, to make three Star Trek movies. It is in JJ Abrams’ interest to oversee and make sure that those working within/for his production company honour the contract made with Paramount in making the movies as per their specifications etc. As head of Bad Robot, he sought out a writing team whom he had worked well with in the past, K/O Paper Products, which is a separate entity. Paramount were/are obviously happy with his choice of writing team because this partnership is now tasked with writing the screenplay for the third movie.

Paramount do not need to go through JJ Abrams. They can go directly to the writing team if they wish;
or
they can allow one of the contracted members of the Star Trek writing team to co-author a literary medium of his choice which deals specifically with events and characters related to this alternate Star Trek universe and assert what is written to be canon, until/unless later overwritten by film. It is really quite simple actually!

Bob Orci – I really don’t like the idea of people here wanting to shoot me out of a cannon because of saying what I deem to be true. A little illumination as what is actually the case would be nice – for all here. Thank you.

599. Phil - November 17, 2013

Okay, when you go poking around, at best you are going to find some guidelines on story development in the Trek universe. There is no “Office of Canon’ at either Paramount or CBS, so there isn’t anyone to take canon ‘requests’ too…..when you consider that there are easily hundreds of document canon violations out there, we are getting way to worked up about this. If Bob has produced the comics with consideration to continuity to storylines, and characters behave within defines attributes, he can consider the material canon if he so chooses…

It would not have bothered me one bit if the new universe started from scratch. It was a creative decision to embrace the known universe. It worked in Trek09, not so much in STID.

600. Disinvited - November 17, 2013

#567. dmduncan – November 16, 2013

I recall once, in what I think was a very enjoyable exchange of ideas with you, you reminded me that “canon” was something fans do. I point that out because I feel much as you do about ToS in its original form. However, Moonves/CBS is in control of “official” Trek and have seen fit to replace the time lapse indicators with the mechanical spinning number wheels and some posters standing in for monitors in its current syndication, so how can our idea of canon with respect to Khan stand against that assault to its reasoning?

I think Red Shirt Diaries’ (Or Orci’s, or anyone else’s for that matter.) explanation can fit in this new canon made “pliable” by CBS’ actions. And I suppose, to repeat a cliche, “We still have our old canon.”

601. Disinvited - November 17, 2013

#599. Phil – November 17, 2013

I have to agree with you there. That is why I always have a good chuckle when someone sputters “What Bjo Trimble said is not canon!”, because I’m fairly certain it was her noticing a fan keeping track of such things as we are discussing here midway through the first season (before SPACE SEED even aired in that selfsame season) is what lead to a “canon” for all of us to argue about now.

602. Jemini - November 17, 2013

271. Invinted-X – November 13, 2013

The S/U romance that was hardly featured in a 2 hours film was the least of the film’s problems. I hate when people attack romantic pairings in films because it is such an easy target.

———

you have to wonder why people seem to be so obsessed about that.
Usually the only ones who get so fixated about hating (or loving) romantic pairs are: a. the shippers of other (non canon) ships that perceive the romance as a threat b. misogynistic fanboys who can’t stand GF ruining their “dudes only, please” party.

You will find both categories in the vocal minority (=haters) of this fandom.

279. Ahmed – November 13, 2013

but the whole romance thing just changed Spock, he is way too emotional, you can hardly see the logical side of him. He is either crying, shouting, screaming or blasting something/someone.
————

The whole crying, shouting, screaming and blasting something/someone wasn’t related to Uhura and their relationship. Not even a bit. Funny how you blame one relationship for the flaws of another, basically (as everything in your list is related to the Kirk/Spock relationship instead)
If anything, if we follow the standards some tos purists set about what is in character or not for Spock he then is more in character in the scenes where he interacts with his GF than in the scenes where he interacts with Kirk or McCoy. Maybe Uhura should tell the others what’s her secret and why he’s calmer and more at ease with her.

281. Kenji – November 13, 2013

@279

The romance thing is both good and bad.

It’s good that it opens up Spock and Uhura as people, with recognizable personal needs and conflicts, and not just as spacemen in spacesuits doing space things in space, which is why a lot of people can’t get into science fiction.

It’s also fun for longtime Trekkers like myself who remember Spock playing his Vulcan harp and Uhura crooning along.

It’s bad in that these movies don’t pass the Bechdel test, and that is nearly criminal given the message of integration of humanity with which Trek has generally striven to convey.

—-

I don’t get the connection between the romance and the movies not passing the Bechdel test (technically), though
For a start, it’s not these writers’ fault if star trek had always been sexist. This might be their trek but there are still some things it’s hard to change even if they wanted.
Most of the main characters are male and generally it had always been the Kirk and the Kirk/Spock show so the problem is not the female characters only but the whole set of secondary characters that had always been hardly developed.
Still, they do good with Uhura (especially compared to the tos movies) and even Carol wasn’t that bad.
and I honestly don’t care about the bechdel test. I care about the quality of a writing and things happening organically and realistically, not a story that must check the requirements of some list.
The section from the wiki article about it sums up my opinion, more or less, about the test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test#Limitations

603. Aurore - November 17, 2013

From another thread ( http://trekmovie.com/2013/10/12/unconfirmed-rumor-orci-talked-to-cbs-about-trek-tv-show/ ) :

127. boborci – October 13, 2013
I said comics are close to canon!
_____

128. Aurore – October 13, 2013
Regarding “canon” :

“102. boborci – July 17, 2012
29.0h please. have a little fun. i said and have said exactly what you just said forever, but Pascale pushed me, he wont give up! i have said a million times that we cant determine what is canon. on this day, i said something else. ‘consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds’”

http://trekmovie.com/2012/07/17/exclusive-orci-says-star-trek-tv-talks-getting-real-declares-movie-tie-in-comics-game-as-canon/

*****

“120. boborci – February 19, 2013
119. When I arrived on the court, I had read that canon meant only what was filmed. to suddenly decree that previous defenitions of canon are not the case would feel to me like congress voting for pay raises for themselves. So as a strict constitutionalist, to me, comics are not canon.

but they sure are close!”

http://trekmovie.com/2013/02/19/trekink-review-of-countdown-to-darkness-2/

__________

604. Phil - November 17, 2013

Imagine….this article started out as a discussion on the budget for a (prospective) third movie….

605. crazydaystrom - November 17, 2013

604. Phil
Imagine….this article started out as a discussion on the budget for a (prospective) third movie….

Imagine a Trekmovie.com thread not vectoring off into squabble and debate where “CASE CLOSED!” isn’t proclaimed. :-)

Isn’t that a line from a John Lennon song?LOL

606. Phil - November 17, 2013

Imagine there’s no canon…
It’s easy if you try
Novels, they are for us
Comics in the sky
Imagine all the people
Watching the big screen

Imagine there’s no canon
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to compare or contrast for
And no animated series, too…

That’s enough….

607. Red Dead Ryan - November 17, 2013

#597. Ahmed,

“Not correct, neither companies overruled what Bob said about the comics. Until they issue an statement, then you can’t just ignore what Bob said because you don’t share his view that comics are canon.”

I never said either company has come out and overruled Bob. Neither have they publicly endorsed what he said, either.

All we have to go on here is precedent. CBS/Paramount have stated, through various parties including Pocket Books, as well as Gene Roddenberry and various producers and writers, that only what is on screen is considered canon.

None of the Prime Universe books or comics are canon.

#603. Aurore,

I forgot about that thread! Thanks!

I think that the final nail has been hammered into the coffin!

The comics ARE NOT CANON!

———————————– FINAL!!! —————————————

608. Red Dead Ryan - November 17, 2013

All,

It’s clear that what happened was Bob wanted to consider the comics canon, and it looked for awhile that he would (he did seem to waiver a bit), but he realized — as stated in the article link posted above by Aurore– that he didn’t have the authority to do so.

609. dmduncan - November 17, 2013

I think Abrams has a genuine gift for the cinematic, but it looks like he’s trading an artistic gift for the role of the next George Lucas (and I’m not saying that because he’s directing the next Star Wars, mind you, but because his Howard Stern-ish “King of All Media” philosophy seems destined to put him in the same place), which is something to beware. Lucas, too, had a gift, and he turned it in to be the head of a toy company for which Star Wars movies became the commercials.

It seems JJ is headed down the same path, and that is too bad.

610. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - November 17, 2013

@606. Phil – November 17, 2013

Well Done! …except I think I’ve got an ear worm for the rest of the day now…

611. dmduncan - November 17, 2013

600. Disinvited – November 17, 2013

#567. dmduncan – November 16, 2013

I recall once, in what I think was a very enjoyable exchange of ideas with you, you reminded me that “canon” was something fans do. I point that out because I feel much as you do about ToS in its original form. However, Moonves/CBS is in control of “official” Trek and have seen fit to replace the time lapse indicators with the mechanical spinning number wheels and some posters standing in for monitors in its current syndication, so how can our idea of canon with respect to Khan stand against that assault to its reasoning?

I think Red Shirt Diaries’ (Or Orci’s, or anyone else’s for that matter.) explanation can fit in this new canon made “pliable” by CBS’ actions. And I suppose, to repeat a cliche, “We still have our old canon.”

***

No matter WHAT anybody does, fans will find a way to make it fit even if they have to attribute the new and contradictory iteration to an alternate universe, and then argue about which alternate universe it should be considered belonging to.

So, fans want to consider MontalKhan as half Mexican half Punjabi? Fine, but that’s not going to stop somebody like me from coming along and following the INTENT of Space Seed while ignoring the failures of the time in which it was made.

In fact, if I was in charge of it, I’d make it a point to establish in such extremely precise terms that he was Punjabi on both sides of his parentage, down to the percentages of his blood purity, that the precision itself would be a moment of humor. And I’d do it no matter what the comics said about it.

Then fans can have a Grand Council on it and decide whatever.

612. dmduncan - November 17, 2013

591. Red Dead Ryan – November 17, 2013

That’s not much of an explanation!

The novel lockout certainly prevents fans from reading AU stories that they might end up liking better than what gets on screen.

You might call controlling the competition a smart move. Or an insecure move.

I mean this is not new territory. It’s been happening with the TOS characters for decades so the new control exerted here feels “iffy” to me.

613. crazydaystrom - November 17, 2013

606. Phil
Not bad Phil, heh-heh. Not bad at all.

614. Red Dead Ryan - November 17, 2013

MonatalKhan spoke with a Hispanic accent on screen, during both “Space Seed” and “The Wrath Of Khan”. Combine that with Red Shirt Diaries’ research on Indian-Mexican Sikhs living in Mexico, you get an explanation of why Khan doesn’t speak with an Indian accent — and that is due to his mixed race background. The thing is, Khan could’ve been born in India, Pakistan, Kashmir, Mexico, Spain, or Portugal.

And as for the space graphics on the bridge, they aren’t monitors. Nor were they meant to be. Those are still photos of nebula and stars plastered to the wall. They obviously didn’t match the space depicted outside of the ship.

615. dmduncan - November 17, 2013

613. Red Dead Ryan – November 17, 2013

Oh they absolutely were meant to be that. Go back and watch The Cage and WHMHGB and several other episodes and you see them functioning as monitors. That they don’t reflect what’s going on outside the ship reflects the production value they had. So yes, they are still photos pasted to the bridge when the episode does not use them specifically as monitors, but monitors are what they were meant to represent.

The pictures weren’t “hung” there because Kirk bought a bunch of space art from a traveling space art salesman and he needed someplace to hang the stuff.

Re: Khan: Yeah, regarding MontalKhan as half this and half that does explain things for a certain perspective, but I don’t have that perspective.

I’ve already had an explanation for it for years based on a different perspective.

See, what happens when you try to create an in-universe explanation for everything is you go into a sort of denial. Denial regarding why things REALLY don’t make sense, which reasons have to do with real world matters like budget, acting, casting, writing, production design.

Trying to give an in-universe explanation for everything is equal to saying that TOS is perfect, and no mistakes were made because it wasn’t created by people in the 1960’s. That kind of canon extremism reduces to absurdity.

I acknowledge that mistakes were made on a TV show and that is the basis for my argument that new iterations should always try to do better than what they did before.

My argument is based on the fact that it’s a TV show.

Here’s another example. The bridge set broke into parts to allow for filming. FACT. In several instances we can see a corner of Spock’s station that could not exist as such unless the bridge was a set that broke into pieces for filming.

And yet there it is, onscreen, a visual contradiction between views of the bridge where one view shows something that can only exist when a section of the bridge has been removed, and another view which shows that same area without that corner because that section of the bridge has been reinstalled so that we can see the entirety of Spock’s station again.

But it’s only a contradiction if you try to explain everything in-universe, which I do not try to do because it makes no sense to do that.

It isn’t a contradiction to ME because whenever I understand the intent and also perceive the failure to represent it properly I know how to explain it already. They goofed / didn’t care / couldn’t do anything about it.

I don’t try to pretend that it doesn’t exist by creating an in-universe explanation for it.

616. DiscoSpock - November 17, 2013

@613 “MonatalKhan spoke with a Hispanic accent on screen, during both “Space Seed” and “The Wrath Of Khan”. Combine that with Red Shirt Diaries’ research on Indian-Mexican Sikhs living in Mexico, you get an explanation of why Khan doesn’t speak with an Indian accent — and that is due to his mixed race background. The thing is, Khan could’ve been born in India, Pakistan, Kashmir, Mexico, Spain, or Portugal.”

Agreed. think most of us here have accepted this explanation now.

617. K-7 - November 17, 2013

Ahmed,

Please drop the comics as canon nonsense. Me thinks you are just trying to take Bob’s side to make up for your embarrassing incident with him last summer. I count about 80% of the posts here supporting the comics not being canon.

618. K-7 - November 17, 2013

@Aurore

“120. boborci – February 19, 2013
119. When I arrived on the court, I had read that canon meant only what was filmed. to suddenly decree that previous defenitions of canon are not the case would feel to me like congress voting for pay raises for themselves. So as a strict constitutionalist, to me, comics are not canon.”

AND THERE YOU HAVE IT.

Do we really need to say anything more here on this?

619. K-7 - November 17, 2013

Ahmed: “Not correct, neither companies overruled what Bob said about the comics. Until they issue an statement, then you can’t just ignore what Bob said because you don’t share his view that comics are canon.”

So Ahmed, are you trying to claim here that Bob was lying publicly then when he himself said the comics were not canon, as Aurore reported above?

wtf???

620. Red Dead Ryan - November 17, 2013

#618. K-7,

“So Ahmed, are you trying to claim here that Bob was lying publicly then when he himself said the comics were not canon, as Aurore reported above?

wtf???”

I agree — I think this is another “classic” example of Ahmed attempting to bait Bob into lashing out again on this site, this time, by accusing Bob of lying.

621. Ahmed - November 17, 2013

Here come the morons !!

622. dmduncan - November 17, 2013

I believe it was Jean Paul Sartre who famously once said after his first viewing of the Star Trek episode ARENA, that “Man, like James T. Kirk, is inescapably compelled by the moral imperative of his finite existence in a meaningless universe to make his own cannon.”

CASE CLOSED!

623. dmduncan - November 17, 2013

Posthaste and forthwith, I henceforth declare the definition of canon settled and closed for all time in all dimensions among all sentient beings in the entire multiverse.

Namaste.

Amen.

Please put your seats in an upright position.

Visiting hours are now over.

624. Ahmed - November 17, 2013

@623. dmduncan – November 17, 2013

“Posthaste and forthwith, I henceforth declare the definition of canon settled and closed for all time in all dimensions among all sentient beings in the entire multiverse.”

I second that, after all we can’t argue with Jean Paul Sartre :)

625. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - November 17, 2013

@622. dmduncan – November 17, 2013

“I believe it was Jean Paul Sartre who famously once said after his first viewing of the Star Trek episode ARENA, that “Man, like James T. Kirk, is inescapably compelled by the moral imperative of his finite existence in a meaningless universe to make his own cannon.” ”

……

626. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - November 17, 2013

…aanndd – I got caught out yet again trying to use GT and LT arrows on this web site. The missing word is ‘guffaw’…

627. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 17, 2013

DM, yea, agreed. I would really like an explanation from Bob Orci on this? Surely now, that they are on the five year mission, the could allow these and other new novels in the nuTrek universe to move forward?

Are us fans getting shafted here with only getting comics, but no adult nuTrek novels just because Bad Robot-Paramount and the CBS-Pocketbooks teams are having a pissing contest?

Bob, are you around? Why Bob do you keep avoiding these questions when I bring them up about once a year here concerning the novels issue?

All, I will keep bringing this up every so often until Bob or someone gives me an answer.

============================================
583. dmduncan – November 17, 2013
Not everybody who reads books reads comics. I like comics, but comics just don’t provide the same experience that novels do. They are very different species and a lot of people want that difference.

So I agree with MJ. It’s kind of mind boggling that they would shut down an entire medium that there is a market for, and if it’s true that JJ is trying to funnel the market toward his bank account because JJ doesn’t get a cut of the novel action, well then that’s one more reason I hope for his severance from the franchise to become complete.

That just looks so petty, especially to fans who come here to contribute feedback for nothing in exchange but the hope of influencing which way the franchise goes.

Companies pay people a lot of money to accost mall shoppers with cheap prizes to give less feedback than we give for nothing, so it doesn’t sit well with me if it is true that he’s snatching at every penny he can get out of the franchise.

So what’s the deal? He doesn’t make enough money that he can’t afford to lose a little on the novels?

628. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 17, 2013

All,

In regards to this issue of the nuTrek novels being sequestered still by Bad Robot, JJ and Bob Orci, I would like to share with you the email I sent last night, and the response I received this morning from noted Star Trek author, Greg Cox, whose new Star Trek universe novel, “The Hazard of Concealing,” has in effect been shut away in a vault by Bad Robot/JJ/Orci, and may never see the light of day now:

“Thanks for your note. At the moment, I’m not unaware of any plans to publish that particular Trek book. At this point, I’ve just adopted a “wait and see” attitude and am focusing on new projects.

If you’re interested, I have new Original Series book coming out at the end of February, NO TIME LIKE THE PAST. It’s a time-travel adventure involving Kirk . . . and Seven of Nine.

Really!

Best,

Greg
—– Original Message —–
From: xxxxxxxxx
To: xxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 3:12 AM
Subject: Status of “The Hazard of Concealing” ?

Hi Greg,

I am big fan of your Trek novels, going to back the Eugenics novels. I was wondering if you knew when and if Pocket Books is going to move forward and publish your nuTrek novel, “The Hazard of Concealing”? Do you know what the hold-up is?

Thanks”

629. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 17, 2013

And here is the original publishers summary of the Greg Cox novel before Orci and company pulled the plug on it — its sounds really cool!

“From the publisher’s catalog
An all-new adventure featuring the new Enterprise crew – from New York Times bestselling author Greg Cox.
The events of the recent movie have left one important loose end: the elder Spock from the 24th century. His knowledge of both technology and future events makes him one of the most important strategic assets in the galaxy. Starfleet Command wants Ambassador Spock to rejoin Starfleet and share that information with them, but Spock is reluctant to interfere with the unfolding of the new timeline. Will he be able to escape a sinister plan wrought by the enemies of the Federation, or will their quest to exploit Spock’s wisdom succeed, with disastrous consequences?”

630. Aurore - November 18, 2013

“#603. Aurore,

…The comics ARE NOT CANON!…”
________

That is what he said(amongst other things)…before adding “but they sure are close!”, as you noticed.

Hence what I said a few posts ago (@ 565) :

“…’Case closed’ for the fellow fans who subscribe to this theory, evidently.

I don’t.

But, of course, should there be a review of the comic presenting such a theory, I would then know the “close-to-canon” justification for the whitewashing of Khan.

‘At last ‘“.

631. DiscoSpock - November 18, 2013

This “close to canon” phrase is in the vein of “moral victory.”

Or as Mark Twain might have said:

“Report of Star Trek comics being considered as cannon are greatly exaggerated”

LOL

632. DiscoSpock - November 18, 2013

BOB ORCI:

PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP HERE REGARDING THE STAR TREK NOVELS THAT APPARENTLY BAD ROBOT WILL NOT ALLOW TO BE PUBLISHED???

633. Cervantes - November 18, 2013

@ MJ #629 – I was interested to read the synopsis for that nu-‘alternate timeline’ novel by Greg Cox, that has been left in limbo so far. I happen to really like it’s premise, and would have preferred *that* to have been the central plot for J.J.’s follow up to his first movie, rather than what we got for STID actually!

I like the fact that *someone* has addressed the unique advantages/or potential threat (depending on your viewpoint) that nu-‘Spock’ poses for everyone in the ‘alternate timeline’ now (or separate ‘alternate universe’ as I prefer to choose to see it). That storyline could have made for a terrific movie in itself, I reckon.

634. Cervantes - November 18, 2013

I meant to type nu-‘Elder Spock’ in my previous post, rather than nu-‘Spock’…but I’m sure you knew that.

635. TUP - November 18, 2013

Ill say it again, I cant accept the comics are canon regardless of what Orci says. Thats just stupid.

And if they cutesy their way out of a terrible decision in STID by explaining the difference between RM’s Khan and BC’s Khan in the comics, that is even more stupid.

As for the KM test, the problem was, we had no context as to why Kirk was trying to cheat his way into winning. They didnt show us what the test was or how serious and important it was. They didnt show us what had happened to make Kirk so determined to beat it.

In WoK, Kirk’s pride in beating the test was a deeper issue. Kirk said “I dont believe in the no-win scenario”. The movie was about the aging cowboy. There were many examples of the TOS Kirk’s confidence getting them into bad situations. It was to a point, like Kirk believed his own hype and the events of WoK forced him to actually be the man he was and not just cowboy his way out of situations, but think his way out of them. We know Kirk experienced loss over the years, but the point of WoK was that he didnt fully experience a no-win scenario until it was his closest friend who died in sacrifice.

In 09, the KM test was there as a reference point from a prior movie. There was no context, depth or heart to it. In many ways, it was irrelevent other than to set up Kirk and Spock as adversaries.

I also hated the way the “test” went. When Kirk, in WoK, admitted to re-programming the test so it was possible win, I imagined a scenario where it would be “virtually impossible” to win, rather than “impossible”. I imagined he’d create a scenario where his superior tactical abilities would triumph, not a scenario where he lounges around the captain';s chair like a fool while going through a simulation that, at that point, a monkey could defeat. It was stupid.

Its no wonder in this universe why he didnt receive a commendation for original thinking.

636. dmduncan - November 18, 2013

628. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 17, 2013

Good job on getting some extra info MJ.

I kinda see a point with what they are doing. I mean, imagine people are coming out with novels based on the AU at the same time Bob, Alex, and whoever is for the screen.

That sets up a potentially embarrassing situation where fans are comparing and contrasting the stories from each medium and liking the novels (probably without a villain of the week) better than the movies and then saying so online. Fans would be ripping their efforts even more saying things like “Why didn’t you just make so and so’s novel into the sequel???”

On the other hand, this strategy also makes them look insecure. It always looks bad when you take concrete steps to shut down other people’s creativity when there are fans out there willing to pay for the stories those shut-down authors would be producing.

JJ’s stock has taken a huge nosedive with me.

CBS has been very generous in allowing high quality fan productions to be made, and I wonder if Bad Robot would ever be as generous to allow anyone to do the same for the circumstances they set up in the AU?

637. crazydaystrom - November 18, 2013

OT-
Last night’s premiere of Almost Human was very good. It impressed me in a way Sleepy Hollow did not. Good science fiction with a very nice futuristic look to it on a tv budget! Hope they maintain quality and keep the show interesting. Episode 2 airs tonight and I’m there! Could be a step towards Star Trek’s return to television, it’s first, best destiny.

638. Phil - November 18, 2013

Like it or not, the new universe is still very early in development – so here’s a little ‘what if’ if events had played out a bit differently in STID. Lets say Kirk was still dead when STID faded to black. Setting aside canon for the moment, novels detailing the adventures of a very dead Kirk would be a huge continuity issue. Canon or not, it was probably something BR just chose to postpone dealing with until they finish their three film commitment. It’s an easy workaround if they would just issue some guidelines, but for whatever reason they chose not to.

639. dmduncan - November 18, 2013

I’m watching the first Mission Impossible. My favorite sequence of the movie just finished. It’s the part where Phelps suddenly reappears to Ethan Hunt after supposedly being killed during the sabotaged mission. Ethan, please remember, has no idea at this moment that Phelps is the guy responsible for sabotaging the mission and getting most of the MI team killed.

So Phelps tells Ethan a BS story about how he survived, and the sequence shows us how Ethan goes through everything in his mind, figuring out what REALLY happened, figuring out how Phelps was the mastermind of the plan, and he figures all of this out in his head while Phelps is sitting right in front of him, BUT Ethan doesn’t give Phelps a clue as to what he’s really thinking or that he’s actually figured it out. He just keeps his poker face and lets Phelps believe that he bought the story.

What an awesome sequence; it engages our minds just as it does Ethan as he’s firing on all cylinders. Now THAT is how I’d expect Kirk to be rebooted. THAT is the kind of opportunity that STID missed.

Fans shouldn’t have to apologize for Kirk or try to make him seem less Zapp Brannigan-ish in the first five minutes of STID than he is.

The reboot of Mission Impossible—Star Trek’s sister series on the Desilu lot—gives us an example in Ethan Hunt that ought also be used for Kirk.

640. dmduncan - November 18, 2013

638. Phil – November 18, 2013

Do ALL of the previously written TOS-based Star Trek novels fit into TOS canon, or do they veer off into their own AU directions?

Because if they do, then that isn’t a new issue and it’s one fans have already accepted.

But more importantly, the MWI/QM premise of ST.09 makes issues of canon moot anyway. You can go off in any direction you want now. It doesn’t even make sense to identify the universe you are playing in by which actor’s Kirk you put on the cover, since an author is free to go off in his own universe’s direction regardless of what Bob, Alex, and JJ do in the movies. You may use the first movie to launch your own direction, or the second movie, or the third….etc, with each author creating the canon for his universe from that point forward.

Given the huge idea at the core of ST.09 I just don’t see the relevance of sticking to ONE universe of canon anymore.

Be as generous as CBS in allowing fan authors to go forward in their way from where you leave off in any of your movies.

Release the hounds!

641. crazydaystrom - November 18, 2013

635. TUP
I totally agree with your comment re: Kirk’s Kobayashi Maru. That STID scene never sat right with me. Just as Kirk being dressed down about it with a hearing in front of a full assemblage of cadets.

As to canon, I’ve always been satisfied with canon being ‘what’s on screen’ BUT I don’t have a huge problem with Trek ‘creators that be’ changing the definition of canon so long as-
1) they are consistent with their canon
and
2) they don’t use other media, i.e. comics, novels, games, etc., to clean up sloppy mistakes made as a result of not doing their homework in the first place.
…if they cutesy their way out of a terrible decision in STID by explaining the difference between RM’s Khan and BC’s Khan in the comics, that is…stupid.

Agreed.

642. Ahmed - November 18, 2013

@ 629. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 17, 2013

“And here is the original publishers summary of the Greg Cox novel before Orci and company pulled the plug on it — its sounds really cool!”

Thanks for posting this, “The Hazard of Concealing,” looks like the kind of Trek novel that I’d love to read.

We know that in the past, Abrams was the one who told them to stop the publication. But since he is not that much involved now with Trek, perhaps someone else at Paramount/CBS will approve the project.

643. dmduncan - November 18, 2013

I also want to point out about that MI sequence I just mentioned, that it shows that action needn’t be eye-glazingly by the book. The action of that entire sequence was very “intellectual” because it shows Ethan’s brilliance in action, where the flashback inserts and Ethan filling in the gaps in his understanding are taking place in the mind. So the physical action also represents the pieces of a puzzle intellectually being assembled by Ethan Hunt in realtime. The action isn’t one or the other.

I would like to see that type of action for Kirk, and less “See Spock run!”

644. crazydaystrom - November 18, 2013

640. dmduncan
“Do ALL of the previously written TOS-based Star Trek novels fit into TOS canon, or do they veer off into their own AU directions?”

Previously canon has been basically what’s on screen. So proclaimed Roddenberry himself. Then he muddled things up by himself deviating from that definition. And what’s been on screen has more than a few times contradicted itself. *sigh* It’s a mixed up muddled up shook up Trek-verse ( except for Lola). ALL this has been stated and discussed here before…and before.

But yeah, each and every variation can be looked at as a part of it’s own universe. I like consistency but 100% consistency is impossible at this point. As someone said upthread it may be best to choose what is canon for you. In fact that might be absolutely necessary absent an ‘authority’ stating what canon definitively is. It’s all fiction, let’s face it.

OT-
The latest issue of Popular Science has a very interesting article about the possibilty of our existence being a program in a very sophisticated matrix of an ultimate (for us) computer . The programmer- our “God”.

645. TUP - November 18, 2013

The issue of canon was never an issue before. because only that which happens on screen is canon. Its silly of Orci to declare their written work canon. I realise he’s trying to make the comics etc more interesting to the hardcore fans but by virtue of the medium, they cant do anything *that* interesting because the more casual movie-going audience wont get it.

Even the reference to the “Mudd Incident” in STID was bad. An off-hand reference I dont mind, but that “incident” allowed them to have that non-Starfleet shuttle. I didnt even hear the “Mudd Incident”mentioned the first time I watched so imagine what a casual fan was thinking.

646. Red Shirt Diaries - November 18, 2013

Funny how when people bring us this issues with the novels, everybody points to Bob’s superiors as responsible — JJ, the studios, etc.

But when who is in charge of canon is brought up,some of these same people claim that, all of a sudden, Orci has the power position, and can dictate canon.

Either he is the head of the franchise and can decide or at least impact these topics, or he is not? You all can’t pick and choose just to give him power when it suits your points, and a free pass when it doesn’t.

647. dmduncan - November 18, 2013

I believe the answer is in your own statement. If Bob has “superiors,” as you put it, then he is not in the position of supreme decisionmaker. So it makes no sense of you to insist that Bob be blamed equally for what the King of All Media at Bad Robot decides. Bob has some power and can “impact these topics” but he does not have all power and cannot decide the course of things on his own. The unshot Shatner scene proves that.

Even if Bob stands shoulder to shoulder with them to get the same punishment, which is admirable, I’m still going to assign more blame to Abrams and Lindelof for the Cumberbatch casting, for example, because it does appear to have been a bilocational brainfart originating inside those two buttskulls.

648. Keachick - November 18, 2013

As I previously wrote, Bob Orci is also an independent person/writer in his own right. He shares a writing partnership with Alex Kurtzman, K/O Paper Products, and given that the real head of the Star Trek movie franchise and therefore those who ultimately decide what is canon or not are Paramount, then JJ Abrams and BR do not necessarily have any say on what may be the canonical status of any written material outside what will go on film.

JJ Abrams is supposed to have stopped publication of the novels, however I doubt he could do that without consultation with his boss, Paramount. They obviously both agreed that the contents of these novels may be in juxtaposition to what would possibly get told/shown in the three movies. Whether we like it or not, it is their call, not ours.

The literary form of what is called the comic was never meant to be for children only. I believe some of the very first comics, written in Japan, contained adult content aimed at an adult readership. There is no reason why other comics cannot be written with a similar age of readers in mind.

I have the first Ongoing Star Trek (AU) compilation and it was more adult in content than what I might expect from a comic aimed at an average child’s reading abilities.

649. Red Dead Ryan - November 18, 2013

I think continuing this discussion about whether the comics are canon or not is akin to bludgeoning a dead pig at the moment.

Bob Orci stated the comics were ALMOST CANON.

Which means they are NOT CANON.

This issue has been put to bed.

Let’s just move on from this topic, shall we?

#646.

Yes, I agree that there seems to be a double standard being used here by some on this thread.

650. crazydaystrom - November 18, 2013

646. Red Shirt Diaries
Either he is the head of the franchise and can decide or at least impact these topics, or he is not? You all can’t pick and choose just to give him power when it suits your points, and a free pass when it doesn’t.

You’re correct RSD, you can’t pick or choose for that purpose. Or I’d say, it would be illogical to do so. But I don’t think it’s a either/or issue either. Bob Orci is an ‘agent’ of Paramount and Bad Robot both and as such, a writer/producercreator, it is presumed he is given, to one degree or other, say in such matters. But that’s presumption. The thing is, we don’t have any true clue or confirmation exactly to what degree. It’s all conjecture on our parts at best. My point is- his not being top dog at BR or a Paramount exec in charge of all decisions Trek doesn’t mean in and of itself he doesn’t have at least some say as to canon. Again we don’t know.

648. Keachick
given that the real head of the Star Trek movie franchise and therefore those who ultimately decide what is canon or not are Paramount

I have to wonder just how much Paramount are actually interested in canon. As long as it doesn’t affect $, I suspect not very much.

The literary form of what is called the comic was never meant to be for children only. I believe some of the very first comics, written in Japan, contained adult content aimed at an adult readership. There is no reason why other comics cannot be written with a similar age of readers in mind.

Correct! And they sill are. In France as well and here in the U.S. many, if not most comics are aimed at a more mature (adult) reader, particularly the graphic novels.

649. Red Dead Ryan
Bob Orci stated the comics were ALMOST CANON.
Which means they are NOT CANON.

Yeah but not to argue, ALMOST CANON is such a soft and nebulous phrasing and open to interpretation IMO. Almost qualifies as ‘a degree of’. I wonder why he did not say the comics were NOT CANON which would have been definitive?

651. crazydaystrom - November 18, 2013

649. Red Dead Ryan
Let’s just move on from this topic, shall we?

Anyone see the Almost Human premiere last night? It was good.

652. Red Shirt Diaries - November 18, 2013

@648

Keachick, thanks for proving my point (see my post @646) for me.

You spend half a page trying to defend your hypocritical positions where in the case of canon, it is CONVENIENT TO SUPPORT YOUR OPINIONS HERE to assign Bob Orci as lead, but then in the case of holdup up the nuTrek novels, it is oppositely CONVENIENT TO SUPPORT YOUR OPINIONS HERE to all of sudden say Paramount/JJ is in charge. ??? Which is it?

Not buying at all what you are selling, Keachick. You are trying to have your cake and eat it to.

You really might consider a career in politics — you have a natural ability. :-)

653. Phil - November 18, 2013

Canon…good lord, there is only one person who had say so over that, and he’s dead. And for whatever hard and fast attributes people assign to it, there are immediate exceptions, including from the late, great Bird himself. If someone who is in a position to produce licensed material for the studio wants to consider something canon, canon friendly, alternative canon, or canon fodder, they can, as long as they have creative control.

Apparently it really does matter if the glass is half full or half empty…

654. jus_wonderin - November 18, 2013

North West Louisiana has a thriving film industry. Star Trek: Into the Bayou?

655. Phil - November 18, 2013

@654. A little Cajun Trek, for the spicy? Love it!

656. K-7 - November 18, 2013

Keachick, I have your clown suit ready, and the “cannon” primed. You’ll be getting Circus Union Wages for the event.

:-))

657. Phil - November 18, 2013

All this chatter about canon…maybe we need a couple of sub categories to clarify things…

Material faithful to the original is on canon….or ‘on the can’
Material presented in multiple media…’green canned’
Material that is re-imagined….or ‘a recycled can’
Material that isn’t faithful is off canon…or ‘shit canned’
Material that is canon friendly… is ‘in the can’

658. Who cares - November 18, 2013

All those people pissed about JJ having the Enterprise operating in an atmosphere must have forgotten that in season 1 of TOS, episode Tomorrow is Yesterday, the Enterprise was flying low enough in Earth’s atmosphere to be intercepted by a US Air Force jet fighter (in 1969, which is the year the Enterprise was thrown to, it would have been an F-4 Phantom) which have service ceilings (Maximum altitude) of 60,000 feet or just over 18,000 meters.

659. MJB - November 18, 2013

658. Who cares

Bingo…that says it all. People are also hung up on the Enterprise being under water. I’ve always thought that they pressed one magic button to allow it to hold up the the water pressure….it’s called the “Shields” button located on the bridge.

660. Red Dead Ryan - November 18, 2013

Who Cares and MJB,

I agree. People seem to forget that we’re talking a highly advanced 23rd century starship that should be able to use its technology like shields, thrusters, et al. to enter water without needing to flood the ship with water.

661. Dswynne - November 18, 2013

@660 (Red Dead Ryan): in regards to the enterprise being underwater, why not? The only thing that would give me pause in endorsing the idea totally would be a lack of explanation as to why there was a need to hide the ship under water to begin with. At the very least, a throw away line like trying to avoid the sensors of a rival space power, like the romulans or Klingons. That is why I didn’t buy some of the plot points in ‘insurrection’, like why the need to have an observation post right next to the Baku, or the need to hide a holographic ship underwater, especially since Starfleet command seems okay with it. Why not simply park it far away, or in orbit?

662. MJB - November 18, 2013

661. Dswynne
Perhaps Kirk & Spock thought sending a shuttle into the volcano was high risk, including loss of the shuttlecraft. So the E needed to be close by for the quick rescue of the away teams.

663. Red Dead Ryan - November 18, 2013

#662.

“661. Dswynne
Perhaps Kirk & Spock thought sending a shuttle into the volcano was high risk, including loss of the shuttlecraft. So the E needed to be close by for the quick rescue of the away teams.”

Yup!

664. crazydaystrom - November 19, 2013

660. Red Dead Ryan
People seem to forget that we’re talking a highly advanced 23rd century starship that should be able to use its technology like shields, thrusters, et al. to enter water without needing to flood the ship with water.

100% in agreement here. Of all the problems I’ve had with STID the E underwater has never been one of them.

665. dmduncan - November 19, 2013

662. MJB – November 18, 2013

Why not just stay in orbit where the Enterprise has a direct line of sight to the volcano to transport Spock out while being invisible to the natives? I’m not clear on why they were using shuttles to get Spock in there if they could beam him out of there. If they could beam him out why couldn’t they beam him in?

I don’t get that part.

666. Danpaine - November 19, 2013

664. crazydaystrom – November 19, 2013
660. Red Dead Ryan
People seem to forget that we’re talking a highly advanced 23rd century starship that should be able to use its technology like shields, thrusters, et al. to enter water without needing to flood the ship with water.

100% in agreement here. Of all the problems I’ve had with STID the E underwater has never been one of them.

——————————————–

Agreed. Out of the laundry list of things I didn’t like about the film, the underwater scene didn’t bother me at all. I figured it was just an avenue for the f/x guys to say “look what we can do!” and a chance to add a little levity with a humorous exchange between Scotty and a giant fish. And because it was more interesting to watch than simply beaming someone up and out of danger.

667. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 19, 2013

As with the transporters, you can’t just drop the shields to let a crewmember onboard. Or can you?

Apparently, yes. But it just seems a little absurd. The should either be “on” or “off” in any of these cliffhanger-type situations.

My recent comments about ID not having memorable moments was in error. The opening scenes of the E were pretty spectacular, memorable, and immediately drew the viewer into the current lives of the crew.

Still, this Trek was a 7/10 for me, but I still support the E’s planet surfing.

668. MJB - November 19, 2013

665. dmduncan
Maybe the active volcano interferes with accurate transporter lock-on. But like Danpaine said, it’s more interesting to see the Big E come to the rescue vs. a boring beam-out. Beaming was cool back in the 60’s but now it’s ho-hum.

669. Red Dead Ryan - November 19, 2013

It was probably difficult to get Spock inside the volcano without taking a shuttle down there because of all the radiation and instability going on.

It would have been easy to beam Spock down….into a pool of lava, or inside solid rock. The shuttle was necessary in that scene.

And they obviously couldn’t land the shuttle for very long in there anyway, so transporter use made more sense, as at that point, it would have been easier to find a way to lock onto Spock even despite the radiation.

Remember, Spock thought he was going to die. He’s a science officer, so he obviously knew that a shuttlecraft rescue wasn’t going to happen, and that even a beam-out was unlikely.

However, as we all know, Kirk found a way to beam him out.

Plus, I agree with the others here saying that it was a much more visually exciting method as opposed to the tried, true, and now boring beam-out.

670. Keachick - November 19, 2013

I am not being hypocritical. Geez, how do I make this issue clearer? What I wrote was that Paramount is the head now (of these specific ST movie iterations) and that JJ Abrams, Bob Orci, BR, K/O Paper Products are and can be their representatives when it comes to stating what might be canon or whether it comes to allowing the publication or otherwise of literature relating to this alternate ST universe.

It is not my “hypocrisy” or “inconsistency” that you should be banging on about. Any apparent inconsistencies have to do with the owner of the ST movie franchise and unfortunately, I do not own any portion and therefore have no say, and neither do any of you!

Once again, you shoot the messenger – me…Duh

671. dmduncan - November 19, 2013

668. MJB – November 19, 2013

Well I know they wanted the Enterprise coming up out of the water because of how awesome it looked, but I’m just wondering if they tried to conceal the artistic choice within a narrative reason too. I’m not recalling dialogue which explains it right now.

In any event, it was a spectacular sight. My jaw drops every time.

672. Keachick - November 19, 2013

#669 – “However, as we all know, Kirk found a way to beam him out.”

And boy, have the writers via Starfleet, as well as the many commentators on this site, been busy punishing this young Kirk ever since. I was never aware until now that saving the life of fellow colleague had little to no value at all or more importantly, stopping a world and its people from destruction, starting with the ungracious chiding of Spock…:(

The fact that Admiral Marcus decided to throw Kirk back into the Academy, instead of just giving him a demotion to Lieutenant, surely indicates that something is a bit wrong within the higher echelons of Starfleet. Later, we see that indeed all is not well.

673. SkiesSeven - November 19, 2013

The opening scene in STID is interesting because the first time you watch it, you get the impression that the rest of the movie will follow the same tone throughout. But it doesn’t and the exploration ends right there. Along with the optimistic tone.

I can’t help but wonder what the movie would have been like if that same tone had been maintained throughout. Without the revenge story, without the Kahn remake, without the dark tone, etc.

674. Keachick - November 19, 2013

OT – This coming weekend, 23/24 November, could be an interesting one.
Two 50th anniversaries take place. One is to do with the assassination of President John F Kennedy on 22 November 1963 (NZ time 23/11/63) and the other is to do with, I believe, the first televised screening of the first Dr Who episode on 23 November 1963 (NZ time 24/11/63).

On one of our free-to-air television channels, Prime, a special 50th anniversary commemorative Dr Who 90 minute episode will be screened here via satellite here at about 9.00am Sunday morning or approx. 9.00pm Saturday evening (British time). Later, that same evening, Prime will devote most of the (prime) viewing time to the re-screening of the morning episode and follow up with whatever is happening with 50th Anniversary celebrations in Britain. Dr Who is popular here and has been, for my better half’s family, since its first screening on NZ TV in 1964 or thereabouts!

As for the other sadder anniversary memorial occurring on the same weekend – well, I don’t know what is going on there. Perhaps Bob Orci may know…

675. SkiesSeven - November 19, 2013

@Keachick

“The fact that Admiral Marcus decided to throw Kirk back into the Academy, instead of just giving him a demotion to Lieutenant, surely indicates that something is a bit wrong within the higher echelons of Starfleet. Later, we see that indeed all is not well.”

———–

I agree, but I would have liked more focus on the Prime Directive itself, rather than Kirk’s actions. Since the opening scene all but screamed the point home.

676. Danpaine - November 19, 2013

673. SkiesSeven – November 19, 2013

I too, would have been interested to see that version.

677. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - November 19, 2013

Yes, Dr Who this weekend! We’ve got tickets for the family to see the 50th anniversary special at the cinema Sunday morning. It will be on TV as well that day, but elder son wanted the cinema experience…

Hubby is quite the Whovian – who am I kidding, the whole family is. As hubby is fond of telling us: he originally bought a TV to watch the Cricket; he originally bought a VCR to record Dr Who…

678. Dave H - November 19, 2013

Rose,

Whether you can see it or not, the inconsistencies pointed out out by Red Shirt in #652 are pretty obvious here to most of us. Where it suits your arguments, you pick different leaders of the franchise to explain your points. You want to have it both ways so that you can win arguments with Red Shirt, K-7, Red Dead Ryan and MJ. It’s pretty transparent.

679. Phil - November 19, 2013

@674. Oh, there are a full docket of shows on tap for the life and times of JFK. In addition that the guy was plenty interesting when alive, considering that there are 42 different groups, 82 different assassins and a total of 214 people as being involved in the assassination, there isn’t a shortage of shows on conspiracy as well.

680. Keachick - November 19, 2013

There is only one head/leader of the franchise and that is Paramount. That’s the POINT!

681. Garak's Pride - November 19, 2013

Agree with Keachick being inconsistent on the franchise leadership issue. You can’t pick two franchise heads just to save face on arguments here. Either its Orci for the novels and canon issue both, or it’s not. Make up your mind?

682. Keachick - November 19, 2013

I am not in the US. Believe it or not, the US presidential assassination that took place 50 years ago simply does not occupy as much of our attention as it does yours and it never has.

That does not mean that many people, then and perhaps now, are not cognizant of the event and possibly the various ramifications because of the shooting. There is a series called the Kennedys’ playing on TV here, with Greg Kinnear playing JFK and Katie Holmes playing Jackie, his wife. It is on quite late though. I’ve managed to catch the last two episodes screened. Interesting stuff.

683. Keachick - November 19, 2013

Yes, I can, because it has happened. When it came to whether the novels get published, it appears that Abrams got to say “Nay”. When it comes to how a different literary medium, which is co-authored by one of the movies’ official writers, unlike the novels, constitutes “almost canon” (because these stories have not been committed to film), Bob Orci can say “Yup”.

Both persons represent the franchise owner, Paramount.

684. Red Dead Ryan - November 19, 2013

#680.

“There is only one head/leader of the franchise and that is Paramount. That’s the POINT!”

Here is what you have said earlier:

“The reality here is that Bob Orci, as a writer contracted, not just by Bad Robot but ultimately by Paramount itself, the actual owner of the movie franchise, is in a position to say whether what he co-authors, within a literary medium, could be deemed to be alternative universe Star Trek canon, until later overwritten by what might be told on subsequent film. Bob Orci can and does! The reason why Paramount has not commented on his assertion is because they don’t need to!”

This statement here indicates that you believe the comics are canon — and that Paramount isn’t going to come out and tell us otherwise, apparently because they don’t need to…..an assumption made on your part to continue to tell us that Bob Orci is in a position to determine if the comics are canon….which in fact, he isn’t. That is Paramount’s power, not Bob’s, as you are incorrectly stating.

—————————– END OF DEBATE!!! ————————————–

685. Red Dead Ryan - November 19, 2013

“ALMST CANON” remains “NOT CANON”!!

How hard is that to understand???

686. Phil - November 19, 2013

Except, of course, when it becomes canon.

The story continues……

687. Phil - November 19, 2013

A more accurate way to look at canon, would be that while Paramount owns the rights (and defends them) to the franchise, it’s use is licensed to production houses. Rick Berman previously, Bad Robot currently. Content becomes their responsibility to produce, which enters canon, with oversight from the studio as needed.

Anyone who has written about Trek canon says it’s loosely defined, at best. So, while on screen material is generally the standard, if there can be exceptions to that, then exceptions can be made for material presented in other mediums. If a comic or novel (or a web or cable series, perhaps??) remains true to the original, and it’s producers consider it to be canon, then why not?

688. Gary 8.5 - November 19, 2013

For me if it didnt happen on screen its not canon .
Data came back in the books recently.
Not canon, Data is still dead .
As much as people like Shatners Kirk books, none of it ever happened .
Sisko never came back to DS9.
The reaction to the death of Captain Janeway in the books has always baffled me .
She didnt die on screen, so she didnt die .
But people were not only upset that she died in the books,
They were convinced that she wasnt coming back .
Anyway, I dont understand the whoe confusion about canon.
If it was on Film or TV its canon.
It’s that simple.

689. Phil - November 19, 2013

Hence, the confusion, and straight from the mouth of Roddenberry. TAS was on screen, he didn’t like it – no longer canon. Roddenberry also didn’t like Trek 5 or 6. Yep, not canon.

In the case of the above referenced novels, they break continuity with on-screen content, so, not canon. The first names for Sulu and Uhura first appeared in novels, and found their way on screen, so, canon.

Not so simple, I’m afraid….

690. crazydaystrom - November 19, 2013

681. Garak’s Pride
You can’t pick two franchise heads just to save face on arguments here.

I don’t see that that’s what Keachick is doing. Her stance and logic is sound:

When it came to whether the novels get published, it appears that Abrams got to say “Nay”. When it comes to how a different literary medium, which is co-authored by one of the movies’ official writers, unlike the novels, constitutes “almost canon” (because these stories have not been committed to film), Bob Orci can say “Yup”.

Yup
.
Look, canon has never been ‘written in stone’, but has alway been an evolving and shifting concept, even by GR’s definition. And as I stated upthread none of us truly know which person or persons are dictating what is this ‘almost inconsequentia’. As a result we all of us pick and choose for ourselves absent official word. And until that word is given the case cannot be definitively closed.

691. Red Dead Ryan - November 19, 2013

#687.

“Anyone who has written about Trek canon says it’s loosely defined, at best. So, while on screen material is generally the standard, if there can be exceptions to that, then exceptions can be made for material presented in other mediums. If a comic or novel (or a web or cable series, perhaps??) remains true to the original, and it’s producers consider it to be canon, then why not?”

Here’s the problem. Gene Roddenberry, Rick Berman, and Bob Orci have all said that the comics and novels ARE NOT OFFICIALLY CANON.

There’s nothing to suggest that people can’t consider it personal canon — Gene Roddenberry himself considered TAS, and TFF non-canon, but the studio overruled him, at least on the latter two films. Paramount/CBS policy dictates that only filmed material can be considered canon.

(And before you ask, Paramount/CBS has not overruled Berman, Roddenberry, or Bob Orci on the novels/comics being non-canon. So until they come out with a statement suggesting otherwise, they are not canon.)

I consider the novels and comics to be seperate universes/timelines from the filmed stuff. The novels are their own canon, and ditto for the comics. They just don’t share the same canon as the films and shows.

692. Red Dead Ryan - November 19, 2013

Also, Bob Orci himself has said that he isn’t in any position to make the comics canon.

So yes, it is CASE CLOSED!!!

693. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 19, 2013

Hey Keachick,

I am in the U.S., and I am so done and bored with the Kennedy thing myself. The most overrated, over-hyped President in U.S. History.

The best thing about the 50th anniversary is that now I won’t have to hear all of this sensationalism and conspiracy nut-job stuff again for another 25 years.

I think I speak for a of people here — “Kennedy fatigue” is definitely prevalent here.

694. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 19, 2013

“When it came to whether the novels get published, it appears that Abrams got to say “Nay”. When it comes to how a different literary medium, which is co-authored by one of the movies’ official writers, unlike the novels, constitutes “almost canon” (because these stories have not been committed to film), Bob Orci can say “Yup”.”

Huh? You just proved the opposite of what you are saying here. Read your own statement here again — it shows exactly that are your artificially changing your idea on who is in charge to of these decisions to match the point your trying to make?

Why would Orci, just a writer and one producer under JJ, all of sudden get the leadership role to make the canon call, when he couldn’t make a similar intellectual material call on the novels? Yours and Rose’s reasoning is non at all compelling — it’s basically, “trust me,” with no justification.

This is intellectually dishonest thinking at best, and fraudulent moronic thinking at worst.

695. K-7 - November 19, 2013

@694 “Why would Orci, just a writer and one producer under JJ, all of sudden get the leadership role to make the canon call, when he couldn’t make a similar intellectual material call on the novels? Yours and Rose’s reasoning is not at all compelling — it’s basically, “trust me,” with no justification.”

MJ, I agree completely. I don’t see a logical foundation or reasoning behind Crazydaystrom’s post @690. He/she just throws out a couple of platitudes and expects us to believe him at face value?

The emperor has no clothes.

696. Keachick - November 19, 2013

Good grief – some people can be so obtuse/dumb.

CASE CLOSED…:)

697. Cervantes - November 20, 2013

@ Phil #689 – I like the fact that even Gene Rodenberry himself ‘made up’ his own ‘Trek’-based ‘canon’ as he went along, by dismissing TAS and Trek movies 5 and 6 altogether. Not that I agree with his choices, but I certainly like the fact that he decided what to not like or include in his own ‘personal canon’…

Maybe, he simply ‘imagined’ that the storylines/events in those were merely from an ‘alternate universe’, despite being onscreen even…just as I prefer to do.

Pah, ‘canon’ shmanon…why should it be relevant *what* anyone from Paramount executives downward think should be ‘official’ so-called ‘canon’ anyway? Especially since there are so many different views about what constitutes ‘real’ Trek anyway, and especially since there’s been so many contradictory ‘Trek’-related styles and elements made by various directors/writers over the years. While it would be nice if everything fitted together nicely, it simply doesn’t as there’s just too many contradictions and discontinuity along the way (even in ‘tone) between certain shows and movies along the way.

Bottom line is, you may make life a lot easier for yourselves if you simply choose your *own* Trek ‘canon’, and decide for *yourselves* what you wish to keep or discard…just as Roddenberry did.

698. Cervantes - November 20, 2013

p.s. –

@ MJ #693 – Regarding the whole JFK ‘shooting anniversary’ thing – It’s been highlighted prominently here in the U.K. different programs shown on t.v. The various aspects of the death and the man himself still seem to fascinate many. Not sure if you bat for the other party over their or not, but Kennedy certainly still commands a lot of admiration by a lot of us over here.

The most fascinating ‘theory’ I’ve seen so far was mooted in a comprehensive analysis documentary the other night – it showed how it was likely that the final shot to his head (the one that proved fatal) was actually fired accidentally by one of his own ‘secret service’ guards in the car behind his, due to the ensuing chaos and his own inexperience with firearm! This is what has then been ‘covered up’ by the other guards and various others over the years, as it would have looked bad for everyone concerned if it got out that this is what really happened…

The documentary came off as showing a very plausible series of sad events, and this version is what I ‘choose’ to believe now.

699. James McFadden - November 20, 2013

Starfleet Command will have 4 Missions of Explorations in the late 24th Century of the Prime Universe and the 23rd Century of the Alternate
Reality. In the 24th Century of the Prime Universe we see Mission Alpha, Mission Beta, Mission Delta and Mission Gamma in operation. We will also see a surveillance mission called Mission Omega being put into operation as Starfleet explores both it’s native galaxy and other galaxies.
In the 23rd Century of the Alternate Reality, Starfleet is starting off it’s 5 year mission of exploration as well as border patrol and surveillance missions. I wonder how far will Starfleet technology advance in this timeline? Will we have a 2311 Warp Factor Scale by 2261 or afterwards?

700. dmduncan - November 20, 2013

673. SkiesSeven – November 19, 2013

You raise an interesting question.

Both ST.09 and STID feel shorter than they are because of how they are constructed. They are packed full of stuff from opening to close.

So, is it possible to write an exploration type story where, given a different set of circumstances, the beginning of STID becomes the climax of a story constructed the same way as ST.09 and STID?

Interesting problem to solve.

701. TOS - November 20, 2013

The impression i got from STID was the writers had “ideas” they liked and then tried to write explanations for them.

– Kirk will die! “but how do we explain that away?”

– Enterprise will rise out of the water! “But why is it under water?”

– Harrison will be Khan! “But why is he there?”

They didnt have a central plot and let things grow organically. They had set pieces and strained together contrived story to make it seemingly work.

And I also see that the terrorist story was really a heavy-handed lefty hollywood hack job about the war on terror. Here we have a Terrorist who does unforgivable things but it’s okay because Starfleet (ie. The US) made him a bad man. Khan isnt really bad, he just does bad things because he’s forced to. If we had just left the man alone he wouldnt have to resort to terrorist actions. And in the end, it’s the head of the military who is the real bad guy for wanting to create an unjust war on the poor little Klingons who are simply miding their own business.

Its fine if you are anti-US but i thought it was pretty vomit-inducing when you really think about it. And even while watching the film, as soon as Khan starts crying and talking about family, I wanted to gag.

702. dmduncan - November 20, 2013

Re: Kennedy.

Depending on the poll you use, American people reject the lone gunman theory anywhere from 60% to 80%.

Even supporters of the lone gunman theory sometimes have to admit strange doings on that day because the evidence requires them to:

“When you really get into the details, it is amazing how many pieces don’t fit. Just to cite one, right after the president was shot, some Dallas policemen ran up the Grassy Knoll and they encountered people who had Secret Service credentials. They let them go. They had their guns drawn. They let them go. You know what they found out since? There were no Secret Service agents in Dealey Plaza, they were all with the motorcade. They went with the motorcade to Parkland. Who were these people?”

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57607346/jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theory-blown-out-of-the-water-in-new-book-author-says?tag=socsh

That guy is a SUPPORTER of the lone gunman theory.

Phantom Secret Service agents are a red flag to me. Another is the George HW Bush matter.

703. Tom - November 20, 2013

Hopefully Bob can make the Shatner scene for ST09 canon!!!!

704. Ahmed - November 20, 2013

============================

Simon Pegg Hints at Possible Star Trek 3 Shooting Location, Speaks More About Joe Cornish as Director

“While stating that Mission: Impossible 5 would film in the UK, Pegg said, “There’s a lot of big productions in the UK … maybe even Star Trek 3, there’s talk of filming here.”

When asked about Joe Cornish being the director of Star Trek 3, Pegg said, “I spoke with Joe the other night about it, but I am not sure what kind of … trouble is, these days things just kinda get out. There’s no time for discussion or rumination because they get out into the open and suddenly are reported as fact. When back in the day before the Internet and people telling everyone everything, you would actually have the space.”

Pegg continued, “I don’t think casting news should really be released until they are official, and certainly nothing in terms of directorial choices for Star Trek should be released until someone signs on the dotted line.”

Pegg finished by saying, ” I love that Joe is being considered. I like the idea of him doing it. I think he would be great. He’s an incredibly intelligent guy and a wonderful film maker. But whether or not he does it is up to a billion different factors … maybe not a billion, like a thousand.”

http://trekweb.com/articles/2013/11/20/Simon-Pegg-Hints-at-Possible-Star-Trek-3-Shooting-Location-Speaks-More-About-Joe-Cornish-as-Director.shtml

705. Keachick - November 20, 2013

The only bit I don’t get about moving the film of a Star Trek movie out of Los Angeles is that all the sets are in the storage warehouses of the studio in that city. It just seems sensible and cost effective to keep making the film that involves the characters being on the Enterprise etc in Hollywood.

The other factor to consider is that most of the main people working on these movies live in LA. *Five out of seven of the main cast have homes and family in LA – Chris Pine, *Zachary Quinto, Zoe Saldana, John Cho and Anton Yelchin. The only two who don’t are Karl Urban and Simon Pegg and so far, Urban’s long haul work commute appears to be working OK for him and his family.

When it comes to ‘other worldly’ locations, then other places around the globe could work really well, depending on the story being told and cost.

*not sure if Quinto has any family in LA.

706. Phil - November 20, 2013

@703. Nah, sets are modular – when they are done shooting they get crated up and put in storage. Everything would fit in shipping containers, which ship for a few thousand each. Actors are used to location shoots, so if they end up in England or New Zealand for a few months it’s a small trade off for the compensation.

Hey, if they shoot in New Zealand, find a local agency that hires extras and get registered. Could be your big chance to actually get into a Star Trek production. I know a few people here who do that, and they seem to have enjoyed the experience….

707. TUP - November 20, 2013

Its pretty hard to be a loyal fan on here when posts keep disappearing..

708. Keachick - November 20, 2013

TUP – Have you not seen the “NOTE:…” in bright red print just the place where you type your message. The appearance and disappearance (and later appearance of same post) has probably happened to all of us at various times. Unless you have written something very obscene or whatever, the post will likely appear in due time.

709. Keachick - November 20, 2013

edit: meant to write, “…print just ABOVE the…” Ugh – brain ahead of fingers or is it the other way round? Whatever….doh….

710. Andrew - November 20, 2013

The next movie will suck just like the first two did. The stories were utterly awful. All of my friends loved them, but I asked them what both films were about on the weekend and they responded with “I don’t know I forget.”

Need a better story. Orci et al are hacks that succeed in pleasing dumbed down masses.

711. K-7 - November 20, 2013

#710. Wow, what an intellectual.

712. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 20, 2013

DM, Cervantes

Regardless of what happened with the Kennedy assassination, I am so done and bored with it. And I know a lot of people feel the same way. He wasn’t that great a president — he was reckless on foreign policy, and f’d girls constantly while President, including actually in the White House.

Overrated and over-hyped — that is my opinion of the guy.

These are just my personal opinions, so I am not trying to start an argument here with you guys or others — I realized he is held up like King Arthur by many.

713. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 20, 2013

DM, Cervantes

Regardless of what happened with the Kennedy assassination, I am so done and bored with it. And I know a lot of people feel the same way. He wasn’t that great a president — he was reckless on foreign policy, and f’d girls constantly while President, including actually in the White House.

Overrated and over-hyped — that is my opinion of the guy.

These are just my personal opinions, so I am not trying to start an argument here with you guys or others — I realized he is held up like King Arthur by many.

714. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 20, 2013

Well said !!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
695. K-7 – November 19, 2013
@694 “Why would Orci, just a writer and one producer under JJ, all of sudden get the leadership role to make the canon call, when he couldn’t make a similar intellectual material call on the novels? Yours and Rose’s reasoning is not at all compelling — it’s basically, “trust me,” with no justification.”

MJ, I agree completely. I don’t see a logical foundation or reasoning behind Crazydaystrom’s post @690. He/she just throws out a couple of platitudes and expects us to believe him at face value?

The emperor has no clothes.

715. Keachick - November 20, 2013

#714 – Like I give a s*** that the emperor has no clothes…Duh! (Rolls eyes)

716. Red Dead Ryan - November 20, 2013

#710. Andrew

“The next movie will suck just like the first two did. The stories were utterly awful. All of my friends loved them, but I asked them what both films were about on the weekend and they responded with “I don’t know I forget.”

Need a better story. Orci et al are hacks that succeed in pleasing dumbed down masses.”

Brilliant review — NOT!

Try finding a new hobby. This one is making you “unbalanced”.

#715. Keachick

There is no call for that kind of attitude that you’re displaying here. All people have done is respond to your “inconsistent” posts regarding canon.

717. Phil - November 20, 2013

@710. This far along, I’m guessing you haven’t actually seen either. Thanks for sharing…

718. Phil - November 20, 2013

Looks like, while JJ was doing some promo work, he was asked about Trek returning to TV. The paraphrased answer was ‘no time soon’.

Looks like we will just have to be satisfied with big screen adventures for the time being…

719. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 20, 2013

Really? Ah, it’s a saying. It’s not about a real emperor. LOL

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

715. Keachick – November 20, 2013
#714 – Like I give a s*** that the emperor has no clothes…Duh! (Rolls eyes)

720. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 20, 2013

““The next movie will suck just like the first two did.”

Are you referring to Star Trek, or your love life?

721. Keachick - November 20, 2013

#719 – I know it’s a saying…:)

I guess my explanations cannot dissuade you from your erroneous assertion that I am being “inconsistent”. Perhaps it has something to do with the notion that there must a “head person” who is the only individual capable of speaking for, being a representative of Paramount. Obviously, reality tells otherwise which is why Bob Orci can say what he says about the canonical status of these AU Ongoing Comic series and why none of us have any kind of authority whatsover, unlike Bob Orci – an AU ST writer/producer, to counter his claims.

But carry on calling me “inconsistent” and warbling on about naked emperors…:)!

722. crazydaystrom - November 20, 2013

695. K-7
MJ, I agree completely.

Ahh, that oft repeated phrase…

I read a book called ‘Platitudes’ once. It wasn’t very good, he said.

And who are you callin’ an emperor?

723. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 21, 2013

693. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 19, 2013
Hey Keachick,

I am in the U.S., and I am so done and bored with the Kennedy thing myself. The most overrated, over-hyped President in U.S. History.

You may be done with “the Kennedy thing,” but I don’t think that “thing” is done with us.

724. MJB - November 21, 2013

Regarding Kennedy . . . it’s the 50th anniversary so it kind of rubs me the wrong way to say publicly that you’re bored with it or he wasn’t that good a president. I just think basic respect should be in order for these few days before and after the anniversary. At the same time I understand free speech…I get that. Anyways…this is just my humble opinion.
Back to canon-talk!

725. Phil - November 21, 2013

Bored with it was probably a poor choice of words – 50 years later, his presidency isn’t relevant to me, now, anymore then Nixon’s resignation was. We have had two mediocre presidents in a row now, that that is much more relevant to me as it directly impacts my life.

That said, and being a bit of a history junkie, I understand that the tragic circumstance of his passing does create a sympathic for what he did and didn’t accomplish in office. He did guide the country through the Cuban Missile Crisis. He was indifferent to the growing Civil Rights struggle. He did launch the moon program. Like him or not, he understood the power and responsibility of the office. As he was the last president to die in office, the tributes and commemorations are appropriate. If they don’t interest you, then don’t participate. Simple solution to the problem.

726. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 21, 2013

@724. I respect the man and his presidency. What I am bored with is all the hype, unnecessary glorification, and all the conspiracy buff stuff. That is what I am bored with.

So, I don’t blame Kennedy for my being bored. It’s the parade of worshipers, sycophants and conspiracy buffs who have completed jaded me on the whole Kennedy thing.

That’s why this anniversary is a bit of “a groaner” for it. It’s like, oh no, MORE documentaries and more talking heads and more conspiracy buffs….been there, done that…enough!

And again, A LOT of people feel this same way.

727. TUP - November 21, 2013

Well my “lost post” of several days ago hasnt returned and I wonder if it was deleted due to my comparison between STID and the War on Terror.

It really was a lefty Hollywood perspective on war. Im surprised Sean Penn wasn’t in it. You had a dictator (Khan) commit awful terroristic acts including murder of many many people yet the writers tried to justify it. I guess those murder victims were just “soldiers” involved in secret weapons programs so they deserved it.

As soon as Khan was crying about his family I was rolling my eyes. You see Khan wasn’t really bad. It was us (or US) that made him bad. And then the good guy, the head of starfleet, was actually bad because he was spoiling for a war with the violent yet “minding their own business” Klingons.

The movie description referred to Khan as a “one man weapon of mass destruction” and yet the film showed the only weapons of mass destruction were created and used by the “good guys”, the allegory for the US government (Starfleet).

The actual bad guy gets all the effort by the writers to justify his actions and create sympathy for him. Our hero gives him his endorsement by teaming with him even after he murdered his mentor. But the most interesting character in the movie was Marcus who is given little screen time, little back story and nothing much past a one dimensional US President-wants-war-at-all-costs characterization. No sympathy for him.

Wrong on so many levels, regardless of your politics. Really just a bad story, bad execution. Good cast, bad characters.

728. TUP - November 21, 2013

Im not sure I’d describe Kennedy as “indifferent” to civil rights.

Im more of a conservative but I liked Kennedy. Any other President and we likely had nuclear war in the 60’s. He wanted to limit the power of the CIA and the intelligence community because he correctly saw them as having too much sway over the country. And he likely died as a result of his desire to control that power.

There is no doubt there was a conspiracy. Ignore the biased Warren Commission which was flawed on many levels (and while there were people involved with reasons to not want to know the truth, I think part of it was a desire to just move past it). The House Assasins committee later determined there likely was a conspiracy. Oswald did too many weird things. Seems clear he was a CIA asset being set up (likely unwittingly) as the lone fall guy. I dont know if Oswald fired at Kennedy or not but he wasnt the mastermind.

729. Keachick - November 21, 2013

#727 – I do not agree with your summation of STID, nor the fact that you bring in so-called present day (US) left wing/right wings politics.

Sorry – gotta go. I will explain later…thanks

730. TUP - November 21, 2013

Keachick, Im curious to hear your opinion because I think it’s rather clear the parallel between STID and the US war on terror and the general Hollywood star perception.

731. Gary 8.5 - November 21, 2013

Hey Bob, I Just wanted to congratulate your brother J.R. on becoming a
a co excutive producer. of the Blacklist .
It is a fine series.

732. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 21, 2013

@727 “Wrong on so many levels, regardless of your politics. Really just a bad story, bad execution. Good cast, bad characters.”

Bad post, dumbass ideas.

@728 “Im not sure I’d describe Kennedy as “indifferent” to civil rights.”

I would. He just talked civil rights, unlike his brother, who really gave a shit about civil rights.

JFK get’s all the publicity, but the only one of three Kennedy brothers I truly respected, was RFK.

733. TUP - November 21, 2013

@732 you’re calling my post dumbass?

734. Keachick - November 21, 2013

I tend not to look at what the movie might be paralleling in the present day.

I see Harrison/Khan as person who has been genetically altered to be more physically stronger and more mentally capable than other humans, as well as being given or having his own naturally more intense innate desire for power enhanced. This Khan is not just a ‘product’ of a male and female doing the business and nine months later – voila, but since then, he has been experimented on and made more than nature and ordinary nurture (or lack of) would have allowed.

Without actually knowing what Admiral Marcus’s background was, it is highly unlikely that he would have been put through what H/K and possibly many of those he called his family (crew) would have gone through or done later. Marcus had as much or as little “free will” as the rest of us, but I do not believe that H/K did, once he was genetically engineered.

I think that the crew, “family” as H/K called them, represented the more human, even humane, side of his nature. With them, he could experience what it feels like to be part of a family, a community of like-minded people where a level of friendship, trust, loyalty, understanding, even kindness, could be had. As for everyone and everything else, well, they were there to used/abused, once he could attain any degree of power and autonomy, just as others had done to him. When H/K thought that Marcus had killed his people, then nothing and, more importantly, nobody in this timeline, mattered at all, hence the attack on the London facility and the firing on SFHQ.

It was only when acting Captain Sulu mentioned the new long range torpedoes being pointed at him, did H/K feel a glimmer of hope…

Those tears that H/K shed were real, the only real tears that this man could or would shed for anything or anybody. He was a lonely despot who was experimented on and made, engineered, hardwired to be more than any human is meant to be. I do not condone his behaviour but frankly he had “less” going for him than Marcus had.

735. Dave H - November 21, 2013

#733

TUP,

Well, guy/gal, your post is kind of a lame political diatribe that is more about your views than anything else.

736. Phil - November 21, 2013

@727…I forget who he was (something guy??) but he was always bleating on about the same thing, and was not edited. On occasion posts get sucked into the black hole for some reason or another.

I suppose you could also theorize it was a cautionary tale about the ultimate GMO, man.

737. Red Dead Ryan - November 21, 2013

TUP,

Please keep your political ramblings off this site. And BTW, I have to agree with MJ your post was truly “dumbass”.

738. Phil - November 21, 2013

@728. Yeah, indifferent is a good word. There is also a persuasive argument to be made that had he not fouled up Bay of Pigs, that the Missile Crisis would not have happened. Given the guy was much more into style then substance, he was a transitional leader at best, had he survived, a somewhat charismatic GOP opponent would have had a decent shot at making Kennedy a one term president.

Actually, there is plenty of doubt that there was a conspiracy. That horse has been beat plenty here, but if you are inclined to believe it, there are dozens of them to choose from. Happy hunting.

739. K-7 - November 21, 2013

Can I call TUP’s post “dumbass” as well?

740. Red Dead Ryan - November 21, 2013

I also agree that while JFK was (and still is) interesting, he was a far-from perfect president.

The Bay of Pigs was an utter fiasco, for which JFK managed to avoid long-term political damage.

Unlike Jimmy Carter, whose disastrous Operation Eagle Claw ended up being the final nail in the coffin of his re-election bid.

741. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 21, 2013

Well said, Phil

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

738. Phil – November 21, 2013
@728. Yeah, indifferent is a good word. There is also a persuasive argument to be made that had he not fouled up Bay of Pigs, that the Missile Crisis would not have happened. Given the guy was much more into style then substance, he was a transitional leader at best, had he survived, a somewhat charismatic GOP opponent would have had a decent shot at making Kennedy a one term president.

Actually, there is plenty of doubt that there was a conspiracy. That horse has been beat plenty here, but if you are inclined to believe it, there are dozens of them to choose from. Happy hunting.

742. Cervantes - November 21, 2013

@ TUP – you mentioned in your post #727 that you reckoned a recent post you tried to make about STID being a left-leaning take on the ‘War on Terror’ had been deleted. However, post #701 by someone called ‘TOS’ appeared the previous day which mentioned a lot of similar ideas and wording as your #727 post…so I’m just curious, but is that the one you originally tried to post?

‘TOS’ certainly seems to have similar views as you if not…without the need for some to flippantly call them ‘dumbass’. Your views on the movie (and the similar sentiments of poster ‘TOS’) are no less relevant than anyone else’s views around here, that’s for sure. On the other hand, I guess calling your views ‘dumbass’ is a point-of-view in itself, so what to do?…

743. TUP - November 22, 2013

Post 701 *was* mine. Not sure why it’s “TOS” other than I mistyped my own handle. lol

And to the yokels who dont have the capacity to respond to an intelligent post they disagree with with anything more interesting than “dumb”, its too bad. Feel sorry for you guys.

I think the parallel between STID and War on Terror is pretty obvious. My post has nothing to do with my political beliefs. I have no issue with Trek representing modern issues (thats sort of what Trek was always about) but I thought this effort was a little ham-fisted.

If it was about my poltiics I would reject Marcus as well but he was by far the most interesting character in the film.

744. TUP - November 22, 2013

Keachick, I know the writers wanted to show Khan’s human side but I didnt buy it. it didnt fit. What troubles me is the writers had a vision and forced that upon characters already estblished.

Whule Khan was loyal to his followers, he considered them just that – followers of his. He would fight for them but he’d willingly sacrifice them for his own desires. They presented Khan as a misunderstood guy who just wanted to live peacefully with his family. The Khan we know would have plotted to overthrow Marcus, steal his ship and conquer the galaxy.

Marcus was far more interesting because his position *was* justifiable. Khan’s was not.

745. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 22, 2013

744. TUP

I agree.

746. crazydaystrom - November 22, 2013

OT-
Just saw the Star Trek Renegades teaser trailer on YouTube. It actually looks like it might be a fun Trek. Promising.

747. Danpaine - November 22, 2013

744. TUP – November 22, 2013

Agreed, as well. Oh yeah, and the whole “this guy is Not Khan,” thing.

I think the story would have been better served if the character of Marcus had been explored more, and perhaps as some here have said, even given the spotlight entirely as the antagonist.

748. TrekmadeMeWonder - November 22, 2013

Cumby just did not do a good job as Khan. As an acclaimed actor, I give him little praise for the Khan role.

I am just hoping now that he will not f-up the Hobbit and Smaug.

Fat chance that that will happen, though. Jackson seems to have the Hobbits in the bag. No pun intended.

749. Keachick - November 22, 2013

TUP – What you have totally overlooked is the genetic engineering that the young ‘Khan’ had been subjected to. It was not only to enhance physical strength/capabilities but it was also on a mental cum psychological level. He and many, if not all, his ‘followers’, we are told (TOS Space Seed) had similar done to them. Whether you like it or not, that changes the ‘picture’ somewhat…

Marcus, presumably, had none of that (extensive) hardwiring done, yet he chose to be and do what he did, which included using this genetically engineered 250/300 year old person for his own purposes and threatened the life of this man’s crew if he did not accede to his wishes. Marcus used his admiralty and head of Starfleet position to sanction and allow certain things to happen that could not have been done otherwise. In other words, he abused his position of power and trust. His actions, in this respect, were NOT justifiable.

The issue is really one of how much actual “free will” or “choice” does an individual have, given certain extenuating circumstances. I say Admiral Marcus had more than this Khan had…not that Khan had no “choice”, just less, perhaps quite a bit less than we might think.

Yes, the film might have worked better if they had simply made the antagonist, Admiral Marcus, but that is not what is on film.

750. dswynne - November 22, 2013

@748 (TrekmadeMeWonder): Little harsh, aren’t you? Cumberbatch’s role was fine, but he shouldn’t have played the role of Khan, IMO.

751. Keachick - November 22, 2013

Now people are bitching about whether Benedict Cumberbatch should have played H/K. This is the kind of nitpicking that gives Star Trek fans a bad name.

Well, he did play H/K and he was kinda creepy with it at one point as well…something that the writers/director no doubt intended.

752. TUP - November 22, 2013

I actually agree about BC as khan. I said in another thread that his portrayal was one dimensional. But that was all that was written for him. One note bad guy. On paper they made him have depth but that wasn’t really what happened. Don’t show me a guy we already know is a murderous dictator committing mass murder for “revenge” and then have him cry about his buddies and claim that’s depth or legitimate sympathy. It’s not. You can’t undo what he did.

Peter Weller was far more effective in far less screen time. He’s a very natural actor able to convey a lot more depth quite easily and in subtle ways. Given that this man became the grandfather to Kirk’s only child, he was far more interesting.

753. Phil - November 22, 2013

@751. Yeah, this is the first I’ve heard of that. Haters gotta hate, I presume….

754. dmduncan - November 22, 2013

Well…by calling him Khan you immediately draw comparisons to the other Khan, and quite apart from his appearance he now has to match Ricardo Montalban’s performance.

How does he do?

As a villain he’s quite good but the problem for me is that he was more Eric Bana evil than Ricardo Montalban evil.

I didn’t find much that was similar even there. On no level did I recognize a character that was supposed to have been drawn from Star Trek history. I acknowledge the intent as it was made clear by his name and the 72 sleeping supermen and women, and so on, but the character’s personality was different as well, and to me it looks like Cumberbatch is struggling to find a way to play a guy that Montalban found a much smoother way of playing convincingly.

I can see the difference in how each actor first reveals his name, Montalban in Space Seed obviously being first. I don’t really get the way Cumberbatch does it. What’s with the facial expression and the odd way of saying the name? I don’t connect withe the emotion there. It feels like acting.

Then later, I really enjoyed the battle of wits between him and Spock, but then Khan falls apart so quickly when he fails to anticipate that the bodies might have been removed from the torpedoes. Since he was the one who alerted Kirk to their presence, it seems reasonable to assume that Khan would also have suspected that they could be removed and that he would be given empty torpedoes, but it apparently never crossed his mind.

He was just so WTF? when they arrive ready to explode.

So…I dunno.

I’ve been wondering how Spock Prime’s appearance plays into that with the knowledge Spock gives to himself about how they defeated Khan in Prime’s timeline.

Was he included there only to give Quinto’s Spock the idea of what may have really happened that saved the ship, i.e., Kirk duplicating Spock’s move from TWOK?

755. Keachick - November 22, 2013

#752 What is the matter with you – honestly?

Unbelievable. People have gone off and bombed the hell out of cities with hundreds/thousands of people in them and will still cry at the loss of loved ones. When Khan thought that Marcus had killed his people, that grief turned to anger and the acts of revenge…Wake up!

756. dmduncan - November 22, 2013

As for JFK, I’ve learned that trying to persuade people that there’s more to his killing than the official storylines pushed by pop media is like trying to change people’s religion.

It’s costly for the brain to revise information which it has settled on. You have to unlearn and then relearn. And for people who like to “get things down once and for all,” it’s just too hard to look at things from a fresh angle.

Even when they try they will tend to evaluate their information defensively, that is, erring in favor of keeping the status quo humming along.

Then there are those who, like the author in that link I posted earlier, may still defend the official story but who have to admit, like the example he gave, that there are a lot of things that don’t fit. And as long as ALL the evidence is not explained, then the official theory will remain questionable, as it should.

757. dmduncan - November 22, 2013

Promos to Ron Moore’s new series on SyFy (Helix) look GOOD. Me watchy watchy.

758. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 22, 2013

I’ll say it again. Benedict Cumberbatch is overrated.

I actually prefer Bana’s performance as Nero.

And remember, I am usually a defender of STID.

759. K-7 - November 23, 2013

Wow, look how TUP and TrekMadeWeWonder are so cozy here together, posting in direct succession and agreeing with each others posts.

Very interesting!

Does Trek make you wonder who TUP is? LOL

760. MJB - November 23, 2013

759. K-7
Sockpuppet alert!!! ;)

761. Ahmed - November 23, 2013

@ 757. dmduncan – November 22, 2013

“Promos to Ron Moore’s new series on SyFy (Helix) look GOOD. Me watchy watchy.”

Yeah, I’m very excited to see his new series, Helix.

Helix – Trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojbf0NmK0Eo

HELIX (TWO EPISODE PREMIERE): FRIDAY, JANUARY 10 AT 10PM ON Syfy (USA) & Showcase (Canada)

762. Phil - November 23, 2013

Okay looking at the top ten list on Box Office Mojo, and I’m thinking STID will remain in the top ten by years end. Thor is going to struggle to break 200MM, Catching Fire will easily end up in the top five, and BOM is predicting 230MM for The Hobbit, Part II.

Not a bad finish. Hopefully they pay attention to the Dr. Who hype this weekend, and plan accordingly for 2016. Though the way things are going, anything before 2020 is probably acceptable….

763. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 23, 2013

@761.

Liked the trailer. Looks like that concept would make a great mini-series, but I am concerned about that concept being able to carry a full tv series.

764. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 23, 2013

I agree with K-7 and MJB concerning how suspiciously coordinated the posts of TrekMadeMeWonder and TUP look.

765. Red Dead Ryan - November 23, 2013

I’m not entirely certain, but didn’t TMMW once admit to sockpuppeteering here a couple of months ago?

766. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 23, 2013

@765.

Yes, he did. And then, remember, he promised to all of us that he would leave the site for good….now he’s back.

What a liar. Completely dishonorable.

767. Ahmed - November 23, 2013

@ 766. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 23, 2013

“Yes, he did. And then, remember, he promised to all of us that he would leave the site for good….now he’s back.
What a liar. Completely dishonorable.”

Well, you also said that you are leaving the site for good when Bob said that he will no longer come here. Then you came back the moment Bob posted again.

“1512. MJ,

THUS, I HAVE DECIDED TO JOIN YOU IN ENDING MY PERSONAL 5 YEAR MISSION ON THIS SITE.
………
I bid a fond, farewell….adiue, my friends.
Live Long and Prosper.”

768. K-7 - November 23, 2013

Ahmed,

What’s up with this, man? As usual, you are taking things completely out of context. MJ left to support Bob Orci’s leaving, and he only returned after Bob Orci changed his mind.

TrekMadeMeWonder left after nearly everyone here, including Matt Wright, grew tired of his trolling, and his admitted s-puppetry.

It’s a travesty that you would make such a comparison, but then again you are 1/2 of Orci internet incident last September. In fact, when you think about it, you are the person responsible for Orci leaving, and by extension then, it’s your fault that MJ left. So that post 1512 above by MJ is largely due to you — your public altercation with Bob forced MJ out.

769. K-7 - November 23, 2013

Hi Matt, why are my posts being censored? I toned down the last one — please post if possible. Thank you!

770. dmduncan - November 23, 2013

SyFy gave Moore a 13 episode order for Helix.

771. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 23, 2013

@767

“Well, you also said that you are leaving the site for good when Bob said that he will no longer come here.”

READ AGAIN: “when Bob said that he will no longer come here.”

That was a conditional statement. Bob returned, and the condition was reversed.

Logic 101

If you are going to continue with this “cheap shot,” Ahmed, then please show me a similar conditional statement that TrekMadeWeWonder made which supports his return now?

I am disappointed in you, my friend. I didn’t know that you supported trolls here.

772. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 23, 2013

@767

“Well, you also said that you are leaving the site for good when Bob said that he will no longer come here.”

READ AGAIN: “when Bob said that he will no longer come here.”

That was a conditional statement. Bob returned, and the condition was reversed.

Logic 101

If you are going to continue with this “cheap shot,” Ahmed, then please show me a similar conditional statement that T-MadeMWonde made which supports his return now?

I am disappointed in you, my friend. I didn’t know that you supported trols here.

773. Ahmed - November 23, 2013

@770. MJ

“READ AGAIN: “when Bob said that he will no longer come here.”

That was a conditional statement. Bob returned, and the condition was reversed.”

Nope, “when Bob said that he will no longer come here.” that is what I wrote here, it was not included in your goodbye message. What you said was:

“THUS, I HAVE DECIDED TO JOIN YOU IN ENDING MY PERSONAL 5 YEAR MISSION ON THIS SITE.
………
I bid a fond, farewell….adiue, my friends.
Live Long and Prosper.””

You didn’t mention that you will return if Bob came back.

I’m simply stating a fact, not supporting TrekMadeMeWonder or you. My point is, you can’t criticize someone else for doing something that you did as well.

774. Phil - November 23, 2013

Oh, for s**t sake, can’t someone just change their mind without it turning into a pissing match?

775. Phil - November 23, 2013

Well, been spending the day watching Dr. Who with my son…instead of working. Looks like it’s been well received, it’ll be interesting to see what the viewership numbers look like.

Hopefully CBS and Paramount are paying attention….

776. Ahmed - November 23, 2013

@773. Phil

BBC is doing a great job celebrating the 50th anniversary of Dr. Who

================
Doctor Who fans around the world await 50th anniversary special

By Tim Masters
Entertainment and arts correspondent, BBC News

Doctor Who fans around the world should expect an “emotional wallop” at the end of the 50th anniversary episode, says the show’s boss Steven Moffat.

“It’s the most ambitious episode we’ve ever done,” he said.

The episode, The Day of the Doctor, will be broadcast in more than 90 countries at the same time as it airs on BBC One on Saturday night.

The BBC says it is likely to be the largest simulcast of a TV drama in history.

“This event means it is a worldwide show not simply a British phenomenon,” Moffat said.

The episode will also be screened in 3D in more than 1,500 cinemas across the world, including Australia, Russia, Brazil, Mexico, Ecuador, Spain, Sweden, Norway and Iceland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-25009889

777. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 23, 2013

Well. I read this site a lot. And if it’s OK with everyone. I’d like to chime in with a personal insight, from time to time. I stayed away for a while to let the hot air dissipate, and if its OK, can we movie on now?

And yes, I apologize if some of my posts have taken some out of their comfort zones.

And FYI, my recent posts and TUP’s ARE coincidental. And some recent reactions to those posts have been kinda funny, if not a bit paranoid.

So. Any new story ideas for nu-ST-III? I’d say keep expanding the mythos of the alternate universe. I would suggest a theme that the new 24th Century tech has out-paced our heroes and Starfleet’s sensibilities.

Perhaps there will be less a reliance on Starships. Perhaps the Enterprise could face a familiar threat of becoming a museum, or drydocked! If not to borrow on Galactica. Heresy. But with a now beaming and expanding Starfleet, the Klingons and highly absent Romulans may then want to launch there own pre-emptive sneak attack on SF, to stop their rapid encroachment and abuses of Power.

I think It would be fun to see SF and the nu-Trek universe decend so much further into darkness than in ID.

So far that It would take a highly courageous captain and crew to set things right.

Yes. you know what that means. And I’d save that for the forth movie.

778. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - November 23, 2013

@775. Phil – November 23, 2013

My family just got back from seeing the Dr Who special at the cinema showing it in our city, and thoroughly enjoyed it, as did the rest of the full-house audience apparently: there was applause and laughter throughout, and an ovation once the credits started rolling. Apparently the cinema has ended up running 10 sessions today, all but a few sold out. Quite a few people dressed up. My older son likened it to ‘Comic-con with just the one booth’ – although I don’t know how he knows that, he’s never been to a Comic-con… We’ll be watching it again on TV tonight.

779. Phil - November 23, 2013

@778. Yeah, it’s looking like the BBC pulled this off. A well deserved tip of the hat to them….

780. Red Dead Ryan - November 23, 2013

Ahmed,

MJ left because you forced Bob (temporarily) off this site with your bad behaviour.

There simply is no comparison between MJ calling out TrekMadeMeWonder’s return, and you criticising MJ’s.

MJ was justified in his criticism by the fact that TrekMadeMeWonder originally left because he got busted for sock-puppeteering.

You, Ahmed, seem to pounce on any opportunity to take cheap shots at MJ. Your tactics are highly dishonorable and cowardly.

781. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 23, 2013

@780. Regardless of the discussion, I really didn’t expect Ahmed to take a cheap shot at me like that. I like the guy, but every now and then he does this kind of stuff. It’s disappointing.

782. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 23, 2013

TrekMadeMeWonder,

I accept your apology in good faith. Looking forward to “a new day” with you here.

Thanks!

783. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 23, 2013

Phil, thank you, my friend. And thanks for the Dr. Who posts — my DVR has been getting all of that today.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

774. Phil – November 23, 2013
Oh, for s**t sake, can’t someone just change their mind without it turning into a pissing match?

784. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 23, 2013

K-7.

Perhaps a little over-the-top, dude, but I certainly appreciate the spirit of your support here for me as I was being blindsided today with this.

Thanks!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

768. K-7 – November 23, 2013
Ahmed,

What’s up with this, man? As usual, you are taking things completely out of context. MJ left to support Bob Orci’s leaving, and he only returned after Bob Orci changed his mind.

TrekMadeMeWonder left after nearly everyone here, including Matt Wright, grew tired of his trolling, and his admitted s-puppetry.

It’s a travesty that you would make such a comparison, but then again you are 1/2 of Orci internet incident last September. In fact, when you think about it, you are the person responsible for Orci leaving, and by extension then, it’s your fault that MJ left. So that post 1512 above by MJ is largely due to you — your public altercation with Bob forced MJ out.

785. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 23, 2013

Thanks RDR! I don’t think Ahmed is a bad dude, but this was completely uncalled for.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

780. Red Dead Ryan – November 23, 2013
Ahmed,

MJ left because you forced Bob (temporarily) off this site with your bad behaviour.

There simply is no comparison between MJ calling out TrekMadeMeWonder’s return, and you criticising MJ’s.

MJ was justified in his criticism by the fact that TrekMadeMeWonder originally left because he got busted for sock-puppeteering.

You, Ahmed, seem to pounce on any opportunity to take cheap shots at MJ. Your tactics are highly dishonorable and cowardly.

786. Ahmed - November 23, 2013

No one here, as far as I know, is appointed as Thought Police. People can come & go as they wish.

When MJ & the others returned, no one asked them why they returned. So why should we treat TrekMadeMeWonder or others differently when they come back ?

If someone was banned by Matt for specific period & returned after that, then we shouldn’t act like some sort of thought police & ask them why they came back.

787. Red Dead Ryan - November 23, 2013

The thing is, I (usually) like reading Ahmed’s posts, but every now and then, he seems to fly off the handle for whatever reason.

788. Red Dead Ryan - November 23, 2013

Ahmed,

I thought we made it clear why we returned? It was because Bob decided to return.

789. Keachick - November 23, 2013

Does everything have to be so dark, even with this new iteration of Star Trek? I say – enough already.

More “cutesy” is what is needed, not less, for goodness sake…

790. Ahmed - November 23, 2013

@ 787. Red Dead Ryan – November 23, 2013

“Ahmed,

I thought we made it clear why we returned? It was because Bob decided to return.”

RDR, I know that. What I’m saying that we didn’t need to ask you that question, everyone is free to come & go.

In any case, why do you feel the need for TrekMadeMeWonder to explain his return ?

791. Ahmed - November 23, 2013

@ 788. Keachick – November 23, 2013

“Does everything have to be so dark, even with this new iteration of Star Trek? I say – enough already.”

Totally agree with you. Enough with dark edgy Trek. Try something more optimistic & fun next time.

792. Anonymous Stranger - November 23, 2013

Cutting costs without quality is a good thing, but how about making a better movie that will have better word-of-mouth, and thus, make more money? Then you don’t have to worry so much about that pesky budget.

I’m sorry but the writing on STID was dreadful. It really was. I can tell by reading the comments here that many of you won’t agree with me and I understand that. I’m a lifelong fan of Trek since the original series, and have seen its ups and downs through the course of five series and 12 movies.

The first Abrams attempt was much better, much more inspired, and pretty much a success in my opinion. It has some really rough spots, but all the other films have had those as well. STID, unfortunately, is in my Major Disappointment category, along with Final Frontier and Nemesis.

I think we really need a different team of writers to go along with a new director. If the current writers stay on, I believe that no matter how well-meaning they may be, their reasons are purely ego-driven and not in the best interests of the property.

793. Keachick - November 23, 2013

I am in the middle of watching a documentary called Dr Who Explained and Peter Davison who played the fifth doctor, quoted one of the early writers, Douglas Adams, who said, “The trick with making Dr Who successful is to make it simple enough for adults to understand and complex enough to keep the attention of children” (paraphrasing)………LOL!!!

794. Red Dead Ryan - November 23, 2013

Keachick, Ahmed,

The recent Trek movies cannot be considered entirely “dark” and “edgy”.

Yes, there were moments of darkness in both movies, such as the destruction of Vulcan, as well as Khan’s attack on Starfleet HQ, but there were also scenes that brought levity to the proceedings, such as those featuring Scotty and Keenser, or the Kirk-Spock-McCoy moments.

I would say that both movies (particularly “Star Trek” ’09) had their fair share of lighter scenes in addition to the darker moments.

795. Dave H - November 23, 2013

Ahmed,

MJ was pointing out someone who promised to leave because they admitted very bad behavior on this site.

MJ left out of respect for Bob Orci. Different deal completely, and then, as MJ said, Bob came back, so that changed things.

You are the one who is behaving like the “thought police” here. This is like saying the God equates to the Devil because they both have promised something for your soul.

796. Phil - November 24, 2013

More on Dr. Who…worldwide simulcast, 3D screenings in 1300 theaters worldwide. Interesting info on building the brand.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-25009889

797. DiscoSpock - November 24, 2013

Ahmed,

Why are you trying to pick fights again here, guy?

Stop protecting trolls.

798. Ahmed - November 24, 2013

===============================
New Ship’s Capt. Kirk Is Used to ‘Star Trek’ Jokes.

Captain Kirk’s futuristic-looking vessel sports cutting-edge technology, new propulsion and powerful armaments, but this ship isn’t the Starship Enterprise.

The skipper of the stealthy Zumwalt is Navy Capt. James Kirk, and yes, he’s used to the jokes about the name he shares with the TV starship commander played by actor William Shatner.

Kirk takes it in stride.

“I don’t take any offense,” he told The Associated Press in an interview. “If it’s a helpful moniker that brings attention to help us to do what we need to do to get the ship into the fleet and into combat operations, then that’s fine.”

While it’s no starship, the technology-laden Zumwalt taking shape at Maine’s Bath Iron Works is unlike any other U.S. warship.
.
.
.
The “Star Trek” comparisons were inevitable even before “Star Trek” actor George Takei used his popular Facebook page to point out the similarities of Kirk’s name.

Kirk, a Bethesda, Md., native and 1990 Naval Academy graduate, said the jokes about his name began early in his career, with colleagues telling him that they couldn’t wait for him to reach the rank of captain.

The Navy skipper points out that his name is actually James A. Kirk, while the fictional Starship Enterprise captain was James “Jim” T. Kirk. But that didn’t stop him from earning the call sign “Tiberius” — the fictional Kirk’s middle name — while working with an aircraft carrier strike group. That was later shortened to just “T.”

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/ships-capt-kirk-star-trek-jokes-20995390

799. Ahmed - November 24, 2013

We can only hope that Paramount & CBS will come up with something similar or even bigger for the 50th anniversary of Star Trek in 2016.

==============================

The Day of the Doctor is Record Breaking

Doctor Who has broken all known records once again!

The Day of the Doctor has been awarded a Guinness World Record for “largest ever simulcast of a TV drama.”

The show was broadcast in 94 countries in total across six continents. In addition to the TV broadcast, the episode was screened in more than 1, 500 cinemas worldwide, with over half a million tickets sold.

Steven Moffat said: “For years the Doctor has been stopping everyone else from conquering the world. Now, just to show off, he’s gone and done it himself!”

Tim Davie, CEO BBC Worldwide said: “We knew we were attempting something unprecedented in broadcast history, not only because Doctor Who is a drama, unlike a live feed event such as a World Cup football match or a Royal Wedding, but because we had to deliver the episode in advance to the four corners of the world so that it could be dubbed and subtitled into 15 different languages. If there was any doubt that Doctor Who is one of the world’s biggest TV shows, this award should put that argument to rest – and how fitting for it to receive such an accolade in its 50th year.”

Guinness World Records Editor-in-Chief, Craig Glenday added: “Who else but the time-twisting Doctor could appear in 94 countries at once?! This outstanding achievement is testament to the fact that the longest running sci-fi TV show in history is not just a well-loved UK institution but a truly global success adored by millions of people.”

Congrats to Doctor Who and the team!

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/the-day-of-the-doctor-is-record-breaking-56087.htm

800. Keachick - November 24, 2013

#794 – Yes, I agree that there were lighter moments in both movies.

The darker, edgier moments also include, for me, the hand to hand combat scenes that occurred on Kronos and then later on the Vengeance, where one person in particular received the most punishing and brutal of beatings (not only in terms of force but how often), not to mention the stomping on someone to break her leg and the skull crushing. Of course, this violence only affected three individuals respectively, but it still adds to the dark, edgy feel and theme. There was also the threat – H/K’s crew being killed and Marcus to Kirk, “Well, that’s a hell of an apology, but I was never going to spare you or your crew.”

My earlier post was in response to TMMW’s comments at #777.

801. Red Shirt Diaries - November 24, 2013

@Dave H

“MJ was pointing out someone who promised to leave because they admitted very bad behavior on this site. MJ left out of respect for Bob Orci. Different deal completely, and then, as MJ said, Bob came back, so that changed things.”

I agree, Dave. Ahmed needs to lay off that crack pipe. ;-)

Seriously, seldom have a seen such a lame and unfair comparison made on this website. :-(

802. DiscoSpock - November 24, 2013

Well said, Red Shirt.

Ahmed should apologize for this “brainfart” of his.

803. Red Shirt Diaries - November 24, 2013

@802. Ahmed has NEVER apologized for anything, EVER here. He never even apologized to Bob for the huge public incident last summer, even though Bob himself apologized.

Ahmed believes himself to be ALWAYS RIGHT on everything he posts here.

804. Ahmed - November 24, 2013

Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain !

805. Keachick - November 24, 2013

It has only taken me six months to realize that Dr McCoy’s exclamation to Kirk, when he stunned the large creature on Nibiru, about having shot their ride was actually a very dry Bones joke (or was it an Urban (Kiwi style) joke?). It’s always been Kirk’s facial expression followed by his response that has puzzled me until now. DOH – Kirk at first looked puzzled by Bones’ assertion about having “shot their ride”, then I think he quickly realized the Bones’ ‘crack’ and played along.

I mean – think about – these guys have been on the planet all of five minutes running from the Nibiru and they’ve already been able to tame a big wild beast to allow them to ride on its back to the seaside…because we “do like to be beside the seaside…” (part of a song) LOL

Just thought I would share, FWIW. Anyway, don’t mind me – carry on…:)

806. Red Shirt Diaries - November 24, 2013

@803. Exactly. You think you are above having to be wrong. Multiple people here have been critical of your actions, with not one person showing up to agree with you….so sure, we must all be “stupid” and you are having to “contend in vain” with all of us peons.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

807. Dave H - November 24, 2013

My, oh my, the arrogance!
____________
804. Ahmed – November 24, 2013
Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain !

808. SkiesSeven - November 24, 2013

@Keachick

“Does everything have to be so dark, even with this new iteration of Star Trek? I say – enough already.

More “cutesy” is what is needed, not less, for goodness sake…”

———

Would love to hear your ideas for Trek 3.

What specifically do you want to see in the next movie?

809. Ahmed - November 24, 2013

@ 806. Red Shirt Diaries – November 24, 2013

“Exactly. You think you are above having to be wrong.”

Nope, when I make a mistake, I corrected it. After all, I’m only human.

“Multiple people here have been critical of your actions, with not one person showing up to agree with you”

Wrong, the “Multiple people” that you mention here are only the same yes-man group (Red Shirt Diaries, DiscoSpock, Dave H, RDR & K-7) that ALWAYS agree with each other on EVERYTHING.

You all have just 1 talking point: BOB INCIDENT !!!

Guess what ? I’m not planing on wasting my time replying to drones.

810. Keachick - November 24, 2013

Gosh – you guys – Ahmed, Red Shirt Diaries, DiscoSpock, Dave H, RDR, K-7, MJ (and whoever else) – re the incident involving Ahmed and Bob Orci. No, Ahmed, I do not think you behaved well towards Bob Orci and I have already stated why previously. Now give it a rest…

Ahmed – people can come and go as they please, as long as the moderator (previously Anthony Pascale, now Matt Wright) does not have an (ongoing) problem with a particular poster’s attitude/behaviour. Then it is his call, not ours.

811. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 24, 2013

Ahmed, just cool things down, my friend. This comparing yourself to the gods thing just added smoke to a fire that was starting to die out. And enough please with playing the “you are all against me” card — it’s not anyone’s fault that you are all alone here in your opinion, so stop with the pity party about everyone disagreeing with you. I admire you for sticking with your outlier opinion, but I don’t admire the whining.

Everyone else — let’s just move on to a new topic please. Enough on this one. Nobody is convincing anybody to change their minds here, so let’s call it done and move on please.

812. Curious Cadet - November 24, 2013

762. Phil –
“Thor is going to struggle to break 200MM”

I don’t know about that, Thor is almost exactly where STID was at the same time during its run, and Thor is still number 2 at the Boxoffice going into the holidays with no real competiton to unseat it. I don’t recall anyone suggesting STID was struggling to make $200 million.

813. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 24, 2013

” I don’t recall anyone suggesting STID was struggling to make $200 million.”

Actually, I recall you continually being critical about the STID box office, starting in Week 1. You then provided many posts in the Weeks following the STID opening that bemoaned and trivialized the STID box office results.

814. DiscoSpock - November 24, 2013

#810

MJ, that’s good advice for all of us, including Ahmed, me, and others.

Thanks for bringing some perspective to this.

815. Ahmed - November 24, 2013

@ 810. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 24, 2013

“Ahmed, just cool things down, my friend. This comparing yourself to the gods thing just added smoke to a fire that was starting to die out.”

Really ? Guess you didn’t read the multiple posts by your pals before my comment

“And enough please with playing the “you are all against me” card — it’s not anyone’s fault that you are all alone here in your opinion, so stop with the pity party about everyone disagreeing with you.”

Don’t twist my words, I didn’t say everyone is disagreeing with me. I mentioned a specific group that act like drones. And no one else is posting these days beside that group, you, Keachick & me.

“Nobody is convincing anybody to change their minds here, so let’s call it done and move on please.”

Indeed.

816. Dave H - November 24, 2013

#814

An objective person might conclude that you enjoy baiting and having arguments with that supposed “drone group” here.

;-)

PS: It’s not my problem if you think I agree a lot with people you disagree with a lot. That is your problem, not mine.

817. Ahmed - November 24, 2013

@811. Curious Cadet

Hunger Games: Catching Fire is crushing box office at the moment

=============================

‘Catching Fire’ torches competition at box office

The second installment of the popular ‘Hunger Games’ franchise collects the fourth-largest debut in Hollywood history.

The sequel to last year’s hit collected $161.1 million since it opened Thursday night, according to studio estimates from Rentrak.

The debut nudged last year’s The Dark Knight Rises, which opened to $160.9 million, down a notch to No. 5 among all-time debuts.
…..
Catching Fire scored another $146 million in 63 countries, giving the film $307 million worldwide, putting it on pace to smash the original film’s haul of $691 million worldwide.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2013/11/24/box-office-hunger-games-catching-fire/3689063/

818. Garak's Pride - November 24, 2013

Re: Ahmed

” I mentioned a specific group that act like drones. And no one else is posting these days beside that group, you, Keachick & me.”

Ahmed, I think what is happening here, is that after the STID release, with most people, according the movie polls liked, the subset of fans like yourself who did not like it, was very vocal here for several months. Now though, as time has passed, most of those types have faded away, and we have ended up here with a more representative selection of Star Trek fans. For this group, most like the movie, with some reservations, and a very small number, including you, don’t.

And so now here we are in November, and you are not happy with the face that you are outnumbered like this — that most of the rest of the subgroup of fans that only saw the movie once, and didn’t like it, have now stopped posting here. And so, from your point of view, it seems like the group of fans who liked the movie is out to get you — and they seem like drones to you, and you feel isolated, and seem to be getting more and more defensive and angry as time passes.

Just my observation.

819. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 24, 2013

“And so now here we are in November, and you are not happy with the face that you are outnumbered like this — that most of the rest of the subgroup of fans that only saw the movie once, and didn’t like it, have now stopped posting here. And so, from your point of view, it seems like the group of fans who liked the movie is out to get you — and they seem like drones to you, and you feel isolated, and seem to be getting more and more defensive and angry as time passes.”

Garak,

I think you hit the nail on the head here. God knows, when I have been against the wall here before in past years, like with my Khan prediction which the vast majority of people here ridiculed, I did in fact get defensive and angry at times. So I have some sympathy for Amhed, for sure. I’ve been there, and it is not fun.

Great post !!!

820. Phil - November 24, 2013

@811. Well, Catching Fire and Hobbit part II are going to catch it. The flick did 14MM this weekend, and assuming a generous 50% drop per weekend it’s got about 30MM in box office left by the end of the year. 200MM, give or take, is still a good run, it grew domestically by about 20MM, which is nothing to sneeze at.

As I recall, you were pretty critical of how STID tracked. Not to sure how comparing it to a superhero fantasy compares, I’m more interested in how it compares to Gravity, as a counterpoint to those who bleat on that the only successful Sci-fi has to have a 200MM budget and be nothing but wall to wall space battles. The lesson to be learned by Bad Robot and Paramount isn’t how to be more like Thor, but what made Gravity successful.

821. Ahmed - November 24, 2013

@817. Garak’s Pride

I disagree with your assessment. But I must thank you to engaging in a civil discussion with me, I do appreciate that.

822. Ahmed - November 24, 2013

@818. MJ

“God knows, when I have been against the wall here before in past years, like with my Khan prediction which the vast majority of people here ridiculed,”

Next time around, I’m going to pay more attention to your future predictions, since it looks like you have a direct line with Bob :)

823. Keachick - November 24, 2013

MJ – People were not ridiculing the possibility that Khan could be in the second movie (it was always “on the cards”) but how you arrived at your conclusion. There was no logic in it.

I do congratulate you on your intuitive guess, which turned out to be correct. Having said that, I still do not believe that this H/Khan is the same Khan from TOS and TWOK. What he does share is the same surname/title, but – and I think it is a very big BUT…

824. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 24, 2013

@822. THAT IS COMPLETELY FALSE

I’m not going to repeat my logic and clues that I covered countless times here concerning Khan. If you didn’t care enough to either read or understand me back then, then you won’t be any more receptive if I repeat them again now for probably the 20th time.

The only wild-ass guessing going on here is your completely baseless theories that BC-Khan is not Khan. Now that is something that is completely without merit or logic.

825. Gold_Coast_Rob - November 24, 2013

Oh my Gosh, I just watched the Doctor Who Fiftieth Anniversary special and realised what a wasted opportunity the last two Trek movies have been. Of course, there needs to be a balance between balancing budgets, ensuring the end result has broad appeal and the creative process. I’d suggest that the Who special proves that you can cater to several generations of fan at once, without selling your soul to the Studio devil. I’d previously accepted Trek 9 & 10 as reasonable movies without too much thought beyond that. Now, having watched the Day of the Doctor with enormous expectations I realise that they sadly are just redresses of a number of other Hollywood action movies.

Here’s to a change of Director and the rest of the production team developing big enough balls to take risk and create something worthy of celebrating fifty years of history.

At least we know Star Wars is getting the JJ treatment too ;-)

826. Keachick - November 24, 2013

My theories were no more baseless than yours were and nor was my so-called “wild-ass guessing”. I have also repeated my arguments as to what your faulty logic was and obviously still is.

We will agree to disagree?

827. Red Dead Ryan - November 24, 2013

Keachick, you are incorrect. Bob Orci has stated that nuKhan is indeed Khan Noonien Singh. As did Spock Prime in the movie.

Enough with the “wild-ass” guessing.

———————————CASE CLOSED!!!!—————————————-

828. K-7 - November 25, 2013

Comparing Keachick’s wild theory on Khan to MJ’s deciphering and assessment of clues over two years to predict Khan, is akin to comparing Dr. Bombay from Bewitched to House, MD. LOL

829. Keachick - November 25, 2013

No, Spock prime DID NOT! He only referred to the man he knew. He had not seen nor met the man who said he was Khan, no other name, or was called John Harrison by Admiral Marcus.

I cannot recall where or when Bob Orci actually stated that they were one and the same people. Show me!

830. Curious Cadet - November 25, 2013

@754 dmduncan –
“Was he included there only to give Quinto’s Spock the idea of what may have really happened that saved the ship, i.e., Kirk duplicating Spock’s move from TWOK?”

I don’t think that was the intent. I think what Old Spock told young Spock was about the prefix codes, and the “exaggeration” of repair time. And young Spock proceeded to do exactly the same thing to catch Khan off guard. I doubt old Spock mentioned anything about dying to young Spock, as that had nothing to do with stopping Khan, who was already beaten by that point.

Was it totally unnecessary? Yes. But I think the inclusion of it was logically conceived, you just have to do the work to appreciate it. Poor Bob Orci, cursed with such lazy audiences. ;-)

831. Curious Cadet - November 25, 2013

@819. Phil,
“As I recall, you were pretty critical of how STID tracked. Not to sure how comparing it to a superhero fantasy compares”

Yes, I was, because it tracked poorly compared to ST09 — perfectly valid criticism. What you suggest is that Thor is “struggling” to hit $200 million, when you would have defended such a statement about STID in similar circumstances at the exact same point in its run. I merely question your bias.

I agree Thor is apples and oranges to STID, but the box office circumstances are similar. As much as I love that Gravity has blown past STID with half it’s budget, it isn’t really a comperable scifi movie either. As some physicists have pointed out, there’s some factually incorrect material, but at the end of the day, most of what is depicted is in the realm of current technology and what the average movie-goer knows of the reality of our world. There’s no transporters, warp drives, aliens, nor magic blood. It’s ultimately Ghost meets Sixth Sense Sense in space using science we see every night on the evening news.

Enders game on the other hand, is struggling to even achieve even After Earth numbers. Now that’s pure scifi, and Orci seems to have missed the mark here as badly as he did with Cowboys and Aliens.

But here’s one note of interest I took away from this STID comparison to ST09, Worldwide STID is likely going to end at the same #13 spot ST09 finished, yet it did so much better. Conversely, the domestic ranking is going to drop by at least 2-3 points but still finishing near the top 10 despite doing so much worse — and 2009 wasn’t a stellar year for blockbusters. All things considered, STID did pretty darn well at holding its own in the overall Boxoffice ranking.

832. TUP - November 25, 2013

A few things to catch up on:

“755. Keachick – November 22, 2013
#752 What is the matter with you – honestly?

Unbelievable. People have gone off and bombed the hell out of cities with hundreds/thousands of people in them and will still cry at the loss of loved ones. When Khan thought that Marcus had killed his people, that grief turned to anger and the acts of revenge…Wake up!”

Im saying my opinion is I didnt buy it. Not because a person couldnt still be sad but because it felt like a heavy-handed effort to gain sympathy for “Khan”. It was part of the writer’s efforts to show you that this terrorist wasnt so bad and it was “out fault” he was a terrorist.

RM’s Khan was consumed by revenge due to being stranded on a nasty planet and mostly because of his wife’s death. When he explained his wife died, did he cry? No, he showed emotion but it was deeper. And it was anger.

My point being, the writers wrote a character that was original to Star Trek and then called him Khan for some as-yet-unclear reason. It just didnt fit.

– I only post under one handle here and any paranoid belief to the contrary is off base. Anyone wondering who I am, I’d be happy to share my email address for private conversations. I’m just a regular fan from Winnipeg.

– Spock Prime’s appearance. I assumed he told Spock of Khan’s “two dimensional” thinking. But who knows. A better use of him would have been “Hey, thats not Khan, it’s Jochin”.

833. Phil - November 25, 2013

@829. Question away – I was never of the opinion STID was going to do 300MM in business domestically, I seem to recall that I thought it would be hard pressed to match the total of the previous movie. I’ve always been of the opinion that, considering the desire of the studio to grow the worldwide box office that the overall barometer of success or failure would be the WW BO total, not how the movies tracked domestically. Therefore, STID is a successful movie. Is it as successful as the studio liked? Probably not. Our difference has, and continues to be in the outlook – you singled out the domestic BO to pursue a negative outlook on the movie, I’m choosing to look at this as having room for improvement. I think our bias’ are pretty distinct here. Trying to link BO tracking of Thor II to STID is just folly – different genre, and Thor will grow it’s domestic BO, which is something STID failed to do – a more valid discussion would be why that failure occurred, not just comparing how they track.

834. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 25, 2013

@829 / Curious Cadet: “Enders game on the other hand, is struggling to even achieve even After Earth numbers. Now that’s pure scifi, and Orci seems to have missed the mark here as badly as he did with Cowboys and Aliens.”

Ah, “the hidden glee” on failures of the Supreme Court that you try to hide in your posts is just plain silly. Enders Game isn’t making a lot of money, but it’s a pretty good scifi film, and so much better than Cowboys and Aliens.

Every box office discussion you bring up has at least some partially-hidden uppercut smackdown on STID or it’s creators.

You are just so predictable — like clockwork — everything their is some movie box office news, there you go again, with you “indirect” slams against STID or The Supreme Court. You are not fooling anyone here.

835. Danpaine - November 25, 2013

I kind of liked Cowboys and Aliens. Quite a bit of fun, good cast and relatively original. Hardly anything that will someday be called a classic, but definitely watchable.

836. K-7 - November 25, 2013

“I cannot recall where or when Bob Orci actually stated that they were one and the same people. Show me!”

Seriously, lady, do you PAY ANY FREAKING ATTENTION to others posts here? This information was provided by multiple people several weeks ago here, in a set of posts that you were participating in. wtf ?

And you obviously don’t remember MJ’s long serires of Khan posts either, where he provided his clues, reasoning and assessment on his Khan prediction. Again, wtf?

No, I don’t think it is the responsibility of any of us to have to spend our time going back and finding all that. You are the one who can’t remember jack-shiit here, so it’s your responsibility, not anyone else’s, to go back and find those references here.

I mean, come one, this stuff has been repeated over and over here. Pay some F-ing attention from now on for Christ’s sake.

837. Keachick - November 25, 2013

K-7 – For Christ’s sake yourself. I can certainly remember much of the jack-shiit posted here. I certainly did read MJ’s many, many posts re his reasoning and assessment and I did not and still do not agree with them. Most were nonsense – apologies, MJ, but truly most were.

Perhaps Bob Orci did hint that these two Khans (RM and BC respectively) were one and the same people, but that is not what is on record, re the STID movie. I believe that the IDW comic, which supposedly deals with the subject of identifying just who this John Harrison/Khan really is, have not yet reached shop shelves etc, so we still do not know for certain.

Besides, some of you dispute that these comics are canon, despite Orci stating that they are “almost canon”, ie being as close to Star Trek canon as you can get, without the comics’ contents being committed to the film/audio-visual medium. With this attitude, some of you are going to be still as much in the dark as we all are now. If the comics do explain who this H/K is, including his apparently very fair complexion, then I won’t be in the dark because I accept Orci’s explanation of these literary works being “almost canon”.

838. TUP - November 25, 2013

It has been stated that Harrison is the Khan we all know from Space Seed & WoK.

To me, the idea of the comics being canon is ridiculous. I can accept “almost canon” as a way to sell them to hardcore fans as movie companion pieces. But if they make any radical changes in the comic that *would* impact the film universe, they are idiots.

As I said before, even the reference to “Mudd” in STID was terrible and relied on people having read the comic. A reference that doesnt confuse people is fine. But that wasnt it. It was a cheap ploy to get people to read a comic.

839. crazydaystrom - November 25, 2013

Again, ‘almost canon’ is an inexact and fairly nebulous term to us and as such very much open to interpretation. Mine is more in line with Keachick’s-

“… being as close to Star Trek canon as you can get…”

– but all things considered it’s understandable that fans are still debating ‘almost canon’.

What is surprising to me is the lack of comments on trekmovie.com about Almost Human. It’s a very entertaining show and could end up being my favorite Karl Urban performances. If folks here are not watching this show, I highly recommend it. Good fun sci fi. And of course…Urban and BR. This deserves to be supported and FOX is notorious for cancelling good science fiction show!

840. crazydaystrom - November 25, 2013

It’s on FOX network tonight @ 8:00

841. Danpaine - November 25, 2013

836. TUP – November 25, 2013
I’ve said it before. I shouldn’t have to read a comic book to “fully realize’ the ideas which, if they were so necessary, should have been integrated into the film in the first place. Try closing the barn door BEFORE the horse has escaped next time. It’s not gospel to me unless it’s been shown on-screen, Period.

Of course if you as a fan are simply into comic books or these various back/side stories, good for you. But it’s not (canon) for me.

842. Marja - November 25, 2013

833 DanPaine, Agreed; I liked it too, and enjoyed Olivia Wilde SPOILER ALERT being the one who saved Earth! I think Orci&Kurtzman write good kick-ass women.

I missed checking in her for a week or so, so I read back in Comments and how about that, “high offensiveness” is back.

Dang it, guys. Offense/Defense and nasty put-downs again? Is TM showbiz wrasslin’ or other smack-down?

:-P

And yes, you guys, I realize I’m not the TM poh-leece, but I was sharply reminded of the tiresome, not the pleasing elements of the convos here. I don’t think I should have to GTFO either. We all have a right to be here. Can we just express ourselves a little more in the debate spirit and less in the junior high school mode?

843. Marja - November 25, 2013

And BTW, not leaping to Ahmed’s defense, just recalling the exchanges b/t him and Bob Orci: after Bob returned to TM, they straightened out their business in true guy fashion.

So can we drop the “being offended on the part of Bob Orci” business already? If Bob can leave it behind, why can’t we? It was like “Spock’s Brain” … awful in the instance, and laughably reedunkulous in retrospect. It came out of macho-guy-posturing, BTW.

Are some people bothered by the idea that Ahmed became briefly famous for making a’hole statements and being replied to in kind by a hugely successful professional writer who has surely heard worse?

Hmmm.

844. Curious Cadet - November 25, 2013

@831. Phil –
“Our difference has, and continues to be in the outlook – you singled out the domestic BO to pursue a negative outlook on the movie, I’m choosing to look at this as having room for improvement. I think our bias’ are pretty distinct here.”

I disagree. That’s your inference. The fact is, STID’s domestic box office is a negative. Literally compared to ST09. The fact I point out the negative does not mean I’m not interested in improving it. You point out plenty of negatives without simultaneously discussing how it can be improved. But I don’t assume the worst of you. Just because STID’s worldwide take made up for the domestic deficit, doesn’t mean all is rosy and positive in Trekland.

__________
“Trying to link BO tracking of Thor II to STID is just folly … a more valid discussion would be why that failure occurred, not just comparing how they track.”

Not to make this all about semantics, but you did use the word “struggling” to describe Thor’s box office, yet refused to do so with STID which performed similarly. Now you suggest the worldwide box office is more important than the domestic anyway, yet Thor has already blown way past STID at the same point. And you still used the pejorative word “struggling” top describe the domestic take, when it’s doing about as well as STID, and now you admit it will do even better. And you did it specifically in regard to how well STID would finish the year at the Box Office. Now that seems like a bias.

But, I’m all for having the “more valid” discussion since I agree the two films have little in common.

845. crazydaystrom - November 25, 2013

840. Marja
We all have a right to be here.

Indeed.

Can we just express ourselves a little more in the debate spirit and less in the junior high school mode?

That would indeed be a plus for the site!

846. TUP - November 25, 2013

Danpaine – agreed. I used to be a huge comic collector and even saying that, comics ARE NOT canon. Period. It was the same thing with 09, that film was not very accessible for the general public. Trekkers could extrapolate some of the backstory but newbies? They were treated to villain bent on revenge for literally no reason until the anvil over the head mind meld. Shouldnt have to read the comic…

847. Phil - November 25, 2013

@842. I’m not going to re-invent the wheel here, most everything I read had STID doing 225-250MM domestically, and north of 400MM worldwide. STID preformed to most standards, except possibly the studio’s, as it appears they were anticipating north of 500MM worldwide. Dollars are dollars, regardless of where they come from, and by that regard, STID is successful. Are there issues to address? Sure, but that does not diminish the FACT that Into Darkness was SUCCESSFUL.

IM3 increased it’s box office 33% over IM2, and doubled it’s worldwide box office. The numbers are not in yet, but Thor2 will only increase it’s domestic box office about 8%, and it’s WW box office by 25%. With strong competition from Catching Fire and Hobbit2, it’s safe to say it’s going to struggle to make 200MM, give or take a few bucks. Why, you ask? Well there are a number of other year end movies hitting theaters that have 100MM potential, and all they are going to do is siphon off viewers from movies like Thor.

It should be noted that Thor is a successful movie. So was STID.

848. crazydaystrom - November 25, 2013

For me comics can be canon if the he/she/they who decides such things say so. But I definitely agree with those who say a movie’s story should not have to be explained the reading of any ancillary material. Each work should stand on it’s own and others should work to enhance the overall enjoyment of it all.

849. Phil - November 25, 2013

@837..Again, ‘almost canon’ is an inexact and fairly nebulous term to us and as such very much open to interpretation.

Actually, canon in general is a fairly nebulous term, as well. For officially sanctioned materials, if whoever produced some non-screen content that they believe is canon, they should be free to do so. The studio seems to have just a high level interest in this…..which is more then I do. If it’s consistent with the Trek universe, and in print form, and whomever produced it wants to consider it canon, they should be free to do so….

850. crazydaystrom - November 25, 2013

847. Phil
Actually, canon in general is a fairly nebulous term, as well.

True. But it doesn’t have to be. In the case of Star Trek THE person who was most originally in the position more than any other to determine canon, GR, himself muddied the canonnic waters by not following his own guidelines as to what determined canon. So the whole thing is something of a mess really.

851. Keachick - November 25, 2013

There was nothing wrong with the mention of the Mudd ship. Either people would get the reference or not. So what?

More silly nitpicking…

There does not need or have to be any more explanation given about Benedict Cumberbatch’s Harrison/Khan character. The movie explained what people needed to know in order to understand the motivations of this particular character. The comics just provide a little icing/top dressing.

I do not think it is relevant as to whether this STID is the same Khan Noonien Singh from Space Seed and TWOK or not. People have their bloomers in a tight knot because they ASSUMED that prime Spock was talking about the same individual that the younger Spock was asking about. Then they became even more antagonistic towards the writers/producers because BC’s H/K appeared to be a “pasty white Brit” instead of a well-toned person of obvious North Indian descent with the appropriate swathy complexion.

Funny thing is that Ricardo Montalban TWOK’s Khan Noonien Singh was not much darker that Benedict Cumberbatch’s Khan (no Noonien Singh). Geez – I recall looking more tanned at times than TWOK’s North Indian Khan and I basically share the same ancestry as BC probably does – Celtic/Anglo-Saxon with some Viking thrown in…

Another aspect – since the Portuguese and the British spent a great deal of time in various parts of India, then there is as good a chance of there being some Indian with white English ancestry as there are of people there having some Portuguese ancestry. What little was revealed about the comic did say that a young guy with the name Khan was an orphan taken off the streets of New Dehli… quite possibly abandoned by his Indian family because of his mixed race…

852. Ahmed - November 25, 2013

@ 841. Marja – November 25, 2013

“And BTW, not leaping to Ahmed’s defense, just recalling the exchanges b/t him and Bob Orci: after Bob returned to TM, they straightened out their business in true guy fashion.

So can we drop the “being offended on the part of Bob Orci” business already? If Bob can leave it behind, why can’t we? It was like “Spock’s Brain” … awful in the instance, and laughably reedunkulous in retrospect. It came out of macho-guy-posturing, BTW.”

Well said

853. Ahmed - November 25, 2013

@ 837. crazydaystrom – November 25, 2013

“What is surprising to me is the lack of comments on trekmovie.com about Almost Human. It’s a very entertaining show and could end up being my favorite Karl Urban performances. If folks here are not watching this show, I highly recommend it. Good fun sci fi. And of course…Urban and BR. This deserves to be supported and FOX is notorious for cancelling good science fiction show!”

“Almost Human” started very well. I think it is great to finally see a real science fiction series, even if it still Earth based. Karl Urban & Michael Ealy are great as the cop & the android, it is going to be very exciting seeing them every week.

Hope they will have an overreaching mythology & tackle hard Sci-Fi issues in future episodes.

854. Dave H - November 25, 2013

Ahmed,

So, fair being fair, I assume we can refer to Marja now as one of your “drones”? Part of your “gang”?

;-) LOL

855. Dave H - November 25, 2013

“almost canon” as a phrase that is right up there with some of the greatest dumbass phrases in history:

“Some of my best friends are (INSERT RACE)”

“Stupidity got us into this mess … why can’t it get us out?”

“The meek shall inherit the earth.”

“A penny saved is a penny earned”

“The pen is mightier than the sword”

856. K-7 - November 25, 2013

Dave H,

Seriously, I can’t really recall where Marja and Ahmed had ever disagreed on anything here?

857. crazydaystrom - November 25, 2013

849. Keachick
There was nothing wrong with the mention of the Mudd ship. Either people would get the reference or not. So what?

Totally agree. Exactly where the ship came from was not important to the story. It could possibly be important later but it wasn’t for STID’s story.

do not think it is relevant as to whether this STID is the same Khan Noonien Singh from Space Seed and TWOK or not. People have their bloomers in a tight knot because they ASSUMED that prime Spock was talking about the same individual that the younger Spock was asking about.

Can’t agree here. Considering PrimeSpock mentioned TWOK’s Khan with his full name and it was never in the film even indicated that CumbyKhan was a different ‘Khan’, it would IMO be disingenuous for the writers to later say he was not Khan Noonien Singh. That would snack of back-tracking and/or post-correction/retconning. IMHO.

858. Ahmed - November 25, 2013

@ 852. Dave H – November 25, 2013

“Ahmed,
So, fair being fair, I assume we can refer to Marja now as one of your “drones”? Part of your “gang”?
;-) LOL”

@ 854. K-7 – November 25, 2013

” Dave H,
Seriously, I can’t really recall where Marja and Ahmed had ever disagreed on anything here?”

Junior high school mode, indeed

859. Dave H - November 25, 2013

Ahmed,

I was just making a joke out of YOU CALLING ME A DRONE.

YOU started all of the “gang” and “drone” talk — YES, YOU !!!

Anyway, I was just having fun with YOUR paranoia.

:-)

860. Phil - November 25, 2013

Hmmm….Catching Fires audience was 59% female. Might not be a bad idea for Bad Robot to reconsider its decision on the relegation of females to the status of eye candy in the next episode.

861. Curious Cadet - November 25, 2013

@845. Phil –
“Thor2 will only increase it’s domestic box office about 8%, and it’s WW box office by 25%. With strong competition from Catching Fire and Hobbit2, it’s safe to say it’s going to struggle to make 200MM, give or take a few bucks.”

Well, it’s not “struggling” now, which was your original assertion. And I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment. It has an 85% RT user box office rating, and the audience that would have normally seen it this weekend was pulled into “Catching Fire”. But these movies are both going into the holiday season, schools are going on holiday, and the target demographic for both films is soon going to have nothing but time on their hands.

But fair enough. We’ll see what happens come Monday after the long weekend.

862. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 25, 2013

For the record. I stopped posting here because no one had the decency to watch and review the 911-truther movie I posted.

I was not saying it was, or I was correct. Just saying it made me think that the official story was a lie. And boy, you all let me have it for just trying to make a few of you aware of something I found important.

And that importance was related to the writer’s inspiration of ST09 & ID, and the new movies theme, tone and possible true purpose.

But that was just WAY too much for some to handle here. So I quit posting. Just because there was no intelligent conversation arising from the highly toxic and controversial topic.

So please excuse me for that. It took me a little time to get past the fact that EVERYONE here did let me down. Just a bit. But I don’t hold any bad feelings for simply trying to share something important, and being ignored.
BTW. I think it was Gene that originally said about the episode – Let this be your last battlefield – that “You can make social and political commentary, that you COULD NOT MAKE ANYWHERE ELSE, but you can do it in Science Fiction in a different form than most are used to seeing. and have the message come across.

Anyhow, my posts from September were too hot for many readers here, and I caught a lot of hell for it, and yes, from MOST of you.

For newcomers, or if interested now. here again is that link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HlUmmPBoLg

But please. I put this all behind me. If you guys do want to take a few minutes and really try to understand what happened by the end of that video, then I will discuss it, and explain it for you. Because I still find it important. Because I will never forget. Because I am an American, and I still believe in truth & justice. And also that I want to believe that it is not out of fashion.

’nuff said on that for now. Just wanted to clear up any misunderstandings about “why I went away.” Got it, now?

—-

Anyhow.

Why no thoughts about my story idea in post 777?

863. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 25, 2013

PLEASE, WOULD YOU JUST DROP THIS SHIT, DUDE!

IT’S NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS SITE !

TAKE THIS SOMEWHERE ELSE…..PLEASE !!!!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

862. TrekMadeMeWonder – November 25, 2013
For the record. I stopped posting here because no one had the decency to watch and review the 911-truther movie I posted.

864. Phil - November 25, 2013

@861. My assertion is correct, it’s going to struggle to make 200MM. Go look at the numbers, and do the math, it’s got about 30MM in box office left in it for the year, give or take a few bucks. It’ll add a couple million more as it’s run winds down next year, if it ends up at 210MM domestically, it will have had a good run.

STID’s spot in the domestic top ten is secure. If it falls out, it will because some other movie (then CF or Hobbit2) does surprisingly well, because there’s no chance in hell of Thor2 doing 60MM in box office before the end of the year.

865. Phil - November 25, 2013

@862. Short answer, there was nothing there worth commenting on.

866. DiscoSpock - November 25, 2013

Oh come on, seeing TrekMadeMeWonder bring up that 911 truther video again is as welcome as finding bedbugs in my blanket.

I want no part of his Jehovah-Witness-like selling from him that I absolutley must watch his video or I am unAmerican…go away, moron.

867. K-7 - November 25, 2013

@TrekMadeWeWonder

Guy, look at the bright side. Ahmed is on record as 100% backing you in your return here. So I’m sure he will be happy to make some popcorn, and snuggle with you as you guys watch that totally awesome video.

868. Keachick - November 25, 2013

#857 – “it was never in the film even indicated that CumbyKhan was a different ‘Khan’”

Which Khan would that be? It was never in the film even indicated that CumbyKhan was not a different ‘Khan’, which therefore indicates that he could be.

The problem is that people are not seeing STID as a separate, unique film in its own right. If someone had never seen either Space Seed or TWOK, then they would not know that Benedict Cumberbatch’s Khan was any different from prime Spock’s Khan Noonien Singh, except that everybody is saying that he is different, mainly because he is the wrong race and colour. Therefore he does not fit.

“it would IMO be disingenuous for the writers to later say he was not Khan Noonien Singh. That would snack of back-tracking and/or post-correction/retconning. IMHO.”

Not so, since neither John Harrison/Khan nor Admiral Marcus indicated to any of us what his full Khan name was. It was only the older Spock who spoke of the Khan he knew. The assumption made is that the two men must be one and the same person, even though this Harrison/Khan never indicated such. Indeed, his different appearance and behaviour could indicate that there are two different men sharing the same very common surname/title.

If Orci does say that BC’s Khan is the same man as the person RM played many years before, then that is new information revealed about BC’s Khan that is not known at present, but only assumed/presumed.

An assumption, like a rumour, is just that – an assumption. English has a lot of words because of the need for preciseness.

I have written similar many times before. It is difficult to know what to say next if some of you still do not grasp what I am conveying.

Oh well…c’est la vie…sigh…shrug

869. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 25, 2013

:-)) As they say, “be careful what you wish for.” LOL

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

867. K-7 – November 25, 2013
@TrekMadeWeWonder

Guy, look at the bright side. Ahmed is on record as 100% backing you in your return here. So I’m sure he will be happy to make some popcorn, and snuggle with you as you guys watch that totally awesome video.

870. Dave H - November 25, 2013

Well, Ahmed certainly made a really big deal of vouching for giving TrekMadeWeWonder a second chance, and now we have to deal with this nutjob stuff all over again.

Ahmed, SEE now why NO ONE was going on your side with this when you insisted on welcoming the guy back? SEE NOW?

Please pay better attention next time on the real situation here instead of just trying to score argument points against me and the other “drones” in our “gang.”

871. DiscoSpock - November 25, 2013

Dave,

Yea, perhaps if Ahmed has stood with everyone else here a couple days back, and supported a unified front that everyone else unanimously supported, where we were trying to hold TrekMadeMeWonder accountable for his actions, then we wouldn’t be having to deal with this “you must view my 911 truther video” nonsense again.

Thanks, Ahmed — thank you so much. :-(

872. dmduncan - November 25, 2013

868. Keachick – November 25, 2013

The problem is that people are not seeing STID as a separate, unique film in its own right. If someone had never seen either Space Seed or TWOK, then they would not know that Benedict Cumberbatch’s Khan was any different from prime Spock’s Khan Noonien Singh, except that everybody is saying that he is different, mainly because he is the wrong race and colour. Therefore he does not fit.

***

And why, exactly would we be enticed to do so?

In ST.09 we saw the rebootment of 50 year old familiar—FAMILIAR—characters. In fact, the producers received near universal acclaim for their casting choices for such familiar and iconic characters.

You are not allowed to enjoy the praise in the latter movie by ignoring the principles which rightfully earned you the praise you got for your previous movie.

It’s just amazing to me how often it needs repeating that you don’t get to have things any way you want by doing things any way you want. The rest of the world is not a fictitious ingredient in the head of a solipsist who determines what reality is.

The problem isn’t that WE are NOT ignoring the change in casting principles between movies. The problem is that they are selective about applying their own principles. So they got criticism the same way they got praise: They earned it.

873. Ahmed - November 25, 2013

To the Junior high school kids here:

867. K-7
869. MJ
870. Dave H
871. DiscoSpock

As a liberal, I don’t entertain the idea of preventing anyone from saying what they want to say. You don’t have to like what they say, you can always just walk way.

Like everyone here, TrekMadeWeWonder can come back & post as he wishes. You are not the mods nor the police force around here.

So much for IDIC, kids !

874. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 25, 2013

Well, at least Gene was smart enough to slide a few by us all, huh? LOL : D

BTW. Some of you fixate on certain things way more than I.

875. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 25, 2013

BTW. Again. I did’nt start it again. You guys did. Just dont make up reasons why I left or returned.

876. Red Dead Ryan - November 25, 2013

TrekMadeMeWonder,

No one cares about your nutjob 9/11 truther website. Also, this is not the place for your crap.

And Ahmed — you need to look in the mirror before attacking the rest of us. You have encouraged TMMW to post his propaganda here.

As well, you and TMMW are behaving in a gang-like manner here….the very same behaviour you have disengenously accused us of displaying.

877. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 25, 2013

@873

Ahmed,

I like you, dude. But you are behaving like a real ass lately.

Whatever is going on with you, I wish you the best, and hope that things get better for you, and that you return to form here soon.

878. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 25, 2013

All, for the record, I just wanted to repeat here below some of TrekMadeMeWonder’s “final” post from mid-September. Warning — you may want to get a handkerchief, because the sad goodbye phrases and “feeling sorry for myself” stuff keeps dragging on and on in this post….I thought for a minute I was watching the final scene in Casablanca or Gone with the Wind…LOL

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
715. TrekMadeMeWonder – September 17, 2013
….But it looks like my words are not appreciated to well here, so reluctantly, I am signing off…So, I bid you all a good day. So long Trek community. So long boborci, I know your still reading this, and so long Buckkaroohawk (another TrekMovie guys that was forced out by some bad sophmoric personalities). This site just got a little smaller, and has been getting smaller by the result of some sad attitudes, here. I am thinking that you are all a bit stronger without me. Live long and prosper. TrekMadeMeWonder… OUT.

879. Dave H - November 25, 2013

@878

Yea, that was awful what our “gang” of “drones” did to Bukkaroohawk, wasn’t it?

(PS: Who in the hell is Bukkaroohawk? LOL)

880. Ahmed - November 25, 2013

@ 877. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 25, 2013

“Whatever is going on with you, I wish you the best, and hope that things get better for you, and that you return to form here soon.”

Don’t patronize me

881. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 25, 2013

@880

Wasn’t patronizing you.

I sincerely hope you can drop this temporary belligerent thing of yours and return to your old self here soon. I really mean that — no patronizing intended.

882. Garak's Pride - November 25, 2013

Ahmed,

MJ’s right. This isn’t like your normal behavior? You seem very angry and quick to jump on people these days?

You are better than this, and I hope, upon reflection, you will realize this?

Peace!

883. Red Shirt Diaries - November 25, 2013

How about we all just all move on. This is getting kind of awkward.

884. Marja - November 26, 2013

856 K-7, “Dave H, Seriously, I can’t really recall where Marja and Ahmed had ever disagreed on anything here?”

Ahmed and I have had some sharp disagreements here. He pretty much doesn’t like the new movies, I pretty much do. We just managed to have our disagreements in a civilized way, which, possibly, didn’t catch your attention.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt – perhaps you’re being satirical, as DaveH was?
————————-
TrekMMW, Re: Your repeated references to the Great Truth you feel we should all learn. Are you like those”missionaries” who feel they must share the “Good News” with everyone?

I really don’t think this site is the right place for your Truth news. I mean, knock yourself out posting whatever, I’ll skip on down past you and the disputatious posturers. Kinda like I don’t answer the door when the Mormons pop ’round.

885. Marja - November 26, 2013

860 Phil, I’d be interested to know how much of Star Trek ’09’s and STiD’s repeat audiences were female. I am one of that number, and I saw each, um … several times.

886. TUP - November 26, 2013

Keachick – who are you kidding?

Firstly, BC was the same Khan from Space Seed. Writers stated that and Spock Prime confirmed it in the film (like someone else said, the fact Spock stated his full name was clarification to the audience it was the same guy). Any effort to suggest it might not be the same is a lazy attempt to defend poor writing and casting.

Secondly, the problem with the Mudd ship reference was, it was lazy writing. “We need a non Starfleet ship. Hmmm, let’s just say theres one on board…yeah!” First time I watched the film I missed the Mudd reference and wondered why they had a non Starfleet ship. Lazy lazy lazy. Second viewing I caught it but my buddy then asked why did they have that ship and I had to explain it was from the comic. “oh”, he replied. “thats stupid”. Yup.

Logic would dictate the ship wouldnt still be there anyway. They had returned to Earth. It was there because they needed it. It was lazy. Is it a HUGE deal? No. but its just another example of poor writing.

887. Curious Cadet - November 26, 2013

@885 Marja,

I believe you are the exception to the rule based on opening weekend box office exit polling I’ve read. However, you do make an intresting point … Do the pollsters continue to keep track of STID past the opening weekend? And if so where are those statistics? The opening weekend clearly did not attract as many women as ST09, but considering how well STID was received, did it continue to repel a female audience? It clearly didn’t for you … not that you are in the prime demographic they were hoping for anyway. STID reportedly skewed much older than ST09 in general, and that’s not great for expanding the franchise either. I presume the opening weekend polling must have a proven track record of how a film performs over its box office run, but it just seems unlikely that it must, based on how a films reputation develops over time. ST09 had a couple of resurgences during its run, but all the same demographic make up as the opening weekend?

I’m sure somebody over at Paramount is studying the marketing data. I just hope it doesn’t lead to more explosions, violence, and a reduction of what makes Star Trek what it is to most fans.

888. crazydaystrom - November 26, 2013

868. Keachick
It was never in the film even indicated that CumbyKhan was not a different ‘Khan’, which therefore indicates that he could be.

?
By that logic since it was never indicated Cumberbatch was not Garth, it then indicates he could be. Or April. Or Sybok. Or Trelane…or, or, or…

No, that doesn’t work for me. With the way CumbyKhan so grandly announced his identity coupled with the Spocks’ exchange about ‘Khan’, along with the fact of there being no indications (besides his appearance and accent, which could be reasonably explained, I feel, in universe or out) that suggest, in story, that he is not Khan Noonien Singh, IMO it was the filmmakers’ intent that he was indeed KNS. And if in the next film it were to be show that he is in fact ‘a’ Khan and not ‘the’ Khan that would so undermine the writer’s storytelling credibility. It would almost be as bad as Kirk waking up at the beginning of the next film and realizing the events of STID were all a dream. Not quite that bad of course but somewhere in that ballpark.

I don’t think that every little thing in a story must be explained overtly and spelled out so that a child could understand but a sequel should not total change, and certainly not>/I> subvert, the meaning of its predecessor.

Thing is, I would be so amazingly surprised if we see anymore Khan in Trek films anytime soon. I would think BR would want to avoid the guaranteed uproar that would result.

There has to be a certain amount of trust between between the filmmakers and the audience. For the makers to come back and say “Remember that character for whom every indication and implication, (except for possibly the most wispy), was a particular character. Well, not really. Gotcha! LOL!”…would for me be breaking that trust. And it renders the previous film less than all of a piece, which any work should stand as. IMHO

889. crazydaystrom - November 26, 2013

Yikes! Doing italics on an iPhone sometimes proves problematic.

890. Phil - November 26, 2013

@885. Not sure where you would find numbers on repeat viewers, but here are general demographics from BoxOfficeMojo. Treks audience skewed heavily male, which really should not be a surprise to anyone.

…… the audience skewed heavily male (64 percent) and older (73 percent over the age of 25). In comparison, the first movie did a better job reaching women (only 60 percent male) and younger audiences (only 65 percent over 25).

891. TUP - November 26, 2013

@888 – exactly. Even if they undo Khan or explain away his appearance in the comics, it undermines these writers.

On one hand, its awsome that Orci is so in touch with the fanbase but I think it has a negative impact. They saw the disappointment with Kirk’s promotion so they tried to fix it and it was flat. They saw disappointment with Khan and now they are trying to fix it in the comics. That doesnt help. It makes it worse.

I want writers that can see the weakness in their script *before* it makes it to film.

They need someone to challenge the laziness. Again, I use Mudd as an example. If I’m in that writers room I challenge that. Their response will be “well we need a non-starfleet craft”. To which I say then come up with a way to have one or to fool the Klingons. Be creative, dont use the comics as a crutch.

892. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 26, 2013

890. Phil

GREAT. More Seven of Nines are on order.

893. dmduncan - November 26, 2013

I think the next movie will be better. JJ’s is off doing something he actually loves and his sensibilities won’t be driving the decisions.

I just hope the next movie doesn’t suffer at the box office because in 2013 they came, they saw, they left uninterested in a sequel.

894. crazydaystrom - November 26, 2013

891. TUP
They need someone to challenge the laziness. Again, I use Mudd as an example. If I’m in that writers room I challenge that. Their response will be “well we need a non-starfleet craft”.

Now here for me TUP this is not an example of laziness at all but just a little cross-media enrichment. Since where the ship came from was not critical to the story my opinion of the film would not have been affected had I not read the comic and didn’t know. It might’ve spurred me to purchase the comic to find out. That’s the synergy they were hoping for, I feel. Doesn’t bother me.

895. Phil - November 26, 2013

@893. Unfortunately, I fear the next Trek will be stagnant at the box office, for a few reasons.

– When you look at the schedules of the powers that be, they are booked solid for the next couple of years. 50/50 odds, at best, of a movie being ready in 2016.

– Because of that busy schedule we are primed for a repeat of the circumstances that caused the STID script to be rushed.

– Creative straightjacket. I get that STID made money. Problem is, recycled Khan was not a compelling story. It would be one thing if K/O had a candid moment and admitted it was not the best creative decision they could have made, but they aren’t – in fact, they have spent a lot of time spinning the fantasy that the Khan/Kirk backstory is this rich and fertile story waiting to be told. Problem is, all this Khan richness is strictly a figment of their imagination. It doesn’t exist in the old or new universe. At all. Somehow I get the feeling that they want to turn Khan into Kirk’s Darth Vader. Sorry guys, but that has failure written all over it.

I liked STID, but there was nothing compelling about it. Recycled Khan was an afternoon in the theater, and I have no interest in seeing him thawed for another turn. I have no interest in seeing adolescent Kirk get some more on-the-job training. I have no interest in watching Spock/Uhura bicker. Leave the Trek formula shots (Kirk skirt chasing, undie shots) out, and tell a good story. That’s not asking to much, is it?

896. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 26, 2013

One more thing, Phil.

No more mentions of 9-11 at the end of the next Star trek movie, please.

;: p

897. Phil - November 26, 2013

@896. Oh, you mean this?

THIS FILM IS DEDICATED TO OUR POST-9/11 VETERANS
WITH GRATITUDE FOR THEIR INSPIRED SERVICE ABROAD
AND CONTINUED LEADERSHIP AT HOME.

Sorry, it’s a nice touch, and it’s good to see Hollywood get behind our service personal. Nothing but respect for guys like Gary Sinese….

Worth repeating, actually….
THIS FILM IS DEDICATED TO OUR POST-9/11 VETERANS
WITH GRATITUDE FOR THEIR INSPIRED SERVICE ABROAD
AND CONTINUED LEADERSHIP AT HOME.

898. TUP - November 26, 2013

@894 I call it lazy because the scene required a non Starfleet ship so they just happened to have one. A casual observer would either not hear the Mudd reference nor get it. And it was heavy handed to have a ship wide communication about the “Mudd Incident” as an excuse to tell the viewers that theres a reason, no matter how lame, for the very thing they needed to be on the ship right when they needed it.

And they wouldnt have off-loaded it when back at Earth?

It was lazy.

Just like “when there is an attack all senior starfleet personel must congregate in this big open floor-to-cieling window’ed room at HQ”. I mean come on… I can see the writers talking about that now:

“How do we get them all together?”
“I dont know…maybe they have to all get together because of protocol. Yeah! We will even have then say it on screen”.

That was another bit of dialogue that should have been “challenged” out in the writers room.

I just get the impression that the big set pieces and explosions garnered more focus than the diologue and characters and whether things passed the logic test.

899. Ahmed - November 26, 2013

@895. Phil

“I liked STID, but there was nothing compelling about it. Recycled Khan was an afternoon in the theater, and I have no interest in seeing him thawed for another turn. I have no interest in seeing adolescent Kirk get some more on-the-job training. I have no interest in watching Spock/Uhura bicker. Leave the Trek formula shots (Kirk skirt chasing, undie shots) out, and tell a good story. That’s not asking to much, is it?”

Yep, you bring good points here. After two movies full of that, we deserve something fresh & daring.

We get that Kirk likes chasing ladies, we seen that already in two movies. So how about in the next one, you guys make him focus on the job & be a real starship captain. Give Uhura something to do other than fighting with or crying for her boyfriend, this is Star Trek, not Twilight.

900. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 26, 2013

You can try and avoid its true meaning, but it is staring you right in the face at the end of ID, Phil.

“Star Trek Into Darkness deals with some modern themes with our future heroes facing off against the terrorist John Harrison.”

Huh. Modern Themes, eh? As in the darkness of terrorism.

What is your explanation for that tag again, Phil?

901. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 26, 2013

One of the big themes of Star Trek Into Darkness is terrorism, and it’s what a lot of soldiers abroad are battling right now. The villain, John Harrison, is a terrorist, but he’s not a black-and-white character. Why did you decide to take on this theme?

The idea was, as much as we could, to tell a story where the bad guy was not just larger than life and not just terrifying but also oddly resonant and relevant.

We didn’t strategize from the outside in to depict something that was actually happening, but we felt it feels like something that is scary to us.

This was something that made us uncomfortable. So, approaching this from the view of creating a bad guy that somehow connects to the life that we live was the thing that was one of our guiding principles. [Harrison] clearly has a hyper-real backstory, but the unfortunate reality is that we’re living in a time when it’s not entirely clear where the next threat will come from and where the next act of violence will take place.

It’s also not as black-and-white as some think.

Once you get into it, you find yourself questioning not just the agenda or motivations of the person, but you find yourself questioning larger things like “What are the rules? How far should we go to prevent things like this? When do we become as dangerous as those we’re trying to stop? What happens when the rules you need to follow are immoral, or at least questionable?” There are a lot of themes that come up about loyalty, responsibility, and family in this film, and that was really interesting to me.

Looks like JJ and I had similar issues with this pic, Phil.

But he does ask a similar question as me, Phil. WHEN? Or, have we already?

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/11/star-trek-into-darkness-dedicated-to-post-911-vets-four-vets-from-mission-continues-featured-in-film/

902. Red Dead Ryan - November 26, 2013

TrekMadeMeWonder,

Please knock it off with the political trolling.. Also, the acknowledgment at the end of the movie was a Thank You letter to U.S sevicemen and women serving overseas…….nothing else to it. I suggest you find a new hobby, or lay off the crack pipe, dude.

903. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

“We get that Kirk likes chasing ladies, we seen that already in two movies. So how about in the next one, you guys make him focus on the job & be a real starship captain. Give Uhura something to do other than fighting with or crying for her boyfriend, this is Star Trek, not Twilight.”

I agree completely.

Great post, Ahmed. Today’s a new day, my friend.

904. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

“THIS FILM IS DEDICATED TO OUR POST-9/11 VETERANS
WITH GRATITUDE FOR THEIR INSPIRED SERVICE ABROAD
AND CONTINUED LEADERSHIP AT HOME. Sorry, it’s a nice touch, and it’s good to see Hollywood get behind our service personal. Nothing but respect for guys like Gary Sinese….”

Phil, that certainly was awesome to see that in STID.

905. TUP - November 26, 2013

I agree about Kirk. I understand this is his early years but now that I’ve seen the bumbling, ogling, goofball Kirk, I dont want to see that era played out on screen.

I want TOS with modern graphics, modern creativity, big budget and young versions of not just Kirk & Spock, but Shatner and Nimoy.

906. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

“I want TOS with … young versions of not just Kirk & Spock, but Shatner and Nimoy”

LOL. Dude, short of advanced AI’s recreating them 50 years from now with super-advanced special effects technology, Shater-Kirk in his prime and Nimoy-Spock in his prime are not “walking onto the set” next year to shoot the movie.

You provide a standard that only God could meet. With that standard, by definition, you will NEVER like any of the new movies.

907. TUP - November 26, 2013

Not true. I liked 09 more. The actors were more “on” than in STID. I wanted to see more mature versions, closer to what we knew. But the maturity of the writers is the problem.

908. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

@907. Sure, I will agree with that. But that was not what you said before.

909. crazydaystrom - November 26, 2013

898. TUP
I just get the impression that the big set pieces and explosions garnered more focus than the diologue and characters and whether things passed the logic test.

Yeah and that added to the ‘written by committee’ feeling of the film.

Still, the ‘Mudd ship’ thing wasn’t a problem for me.

910. Keachick - November 26, 2013

Give it a rest, TUP. All I see from you is your constant “lazy” references when it comes to this movie and to me as well. It is not lazy of me to express an alternate interpretation of what I saw in the movie.

Yes, and you pointing out the “lazy writing” because there is mention of the Mudd ship is what I said before – silly nitpicking. It was not explained why the ship was still on the Enterprise and it did not need to be either. Happenstance made it the perfect vehicle to use – hell, perhaps once Kirk knew what he would be doing, ie covert operation, he may have given orders to keep the ship on board and just make sure it was space worthy…there, simple, logical explanation.

As for BC playing KNS, well, I guess you will all have to forgive my lapse in memory when it came to Bob Orci’s explanation in this regard. I am hoping that Bob himself may properly confirm or otherwise, but he is probably too busy avoiding us…

If there was indeed any “laziness” in the writing, it was the fact that we (the audience) were not shown that nuSpock had actually shown prime Spock a picture of BC’s Harrison/Khan so that the man could be properly, formerly identified by the older Spock as the very same man prime Spock had dealings with much earlier in his universe, but that did not happen, hence my stance.

As for Kirk’s “skirt chasing” and “ogling” – well, that took all of 10 seconds out of a 2 hour movie. This just goes to prove my point that so many people are so negatively obsessed with anything that might even slightly hint of sexuality. You all sound like 12 year olds who are, in all likelihood, giving your mothers a lot of work because they are constantly having to change the sheets on your beds.

Kirk is young and focused – he is a bit impulsive because he is excited and also someone who wants to do right by all, if he can – hence having a go at saving the Nibiru people and saving Spock – oh, the crime of it – such bumbling – just so shocking (read sarcasm) – or that he was not “quick enough”, “wise enough” not trust the head of Starfleet, Admiral Marcus…
One thing though – I know who I would want to have my back, despite his youth and some inexperience, and that is this nu Kirk…

Most of the attitudes expressed here, re the two main characters, are silly, unsympathetic and give me a headache.

911. Ahmed - November 26, 2013

@910. Keachick

“As for BC playing KNS, well, I guess you will all have to forgive my lapse in memory when it came to Bob Orci’s explanation in this regard. I am hoping that Bob himself may properly confirm or otherwise, but he is probably too busy avoiding us…”

Everyone on the planet agree that BC was playing Khan. All reviews agree it was Khan, the audience agree it was Khan. Bob said it was Khan million of times. Here are just two interview about that:

=================================
Bob Orci Explains How Khan Became the Villain of “Star Trek Into Darkness”

“We talked about having a coda at the end of the first movie of Star Trek finding the Botany Bay. So Khan was in our minds. Now, [2009] comes out and there is a big push to do Khan. We collectively stepped back from that because we felt like we were falling into the trap of using a villain based on previous knowledge of the villain, and that we were somehow relying on the audience’s expectation of love and hate of Khan to make that story work. So, we stepped back and said, ‘lets say it’s not Khan’…After we had that story, well, now can it be Khan? We started at Khan, went away from Khan, and then came back to him.”

http://photoncitynews.com/2013/09/26/bob-orci-explains-how-khan-became-the-villain-of-star-trek-into-darkness/

=================================

Alex Kurtzman and Bob Orci: ‘Star Trek Into Darkness’ Is Not a Remake

“Orci: You don’t want to rely on previous knowledge. When you’re taking on something like Khan, you have to figure out…we debated about this, whether it should’ve been Khan or not. The debate was based on that the story did not rely on the knowledge of Khan, the love of Khan, or knowledge of Star Trek. We tried coming up with a story that could stand without Khan. What is a good story? A story about resilience in a certain situation. Once we had a story that stood on its own without relying on previous knowledge of Star Trek or Khan, we thought, “Well, does Khan add anything to it? If we were to put Khan into this movie, do the details of his life and backstory add something? Can we make it even more specific?”

It wasn’t until we had a basic structure where we thought, “Yes, Khan fits quite nicely. The details of his life make it even better.” By the way, for fans, they’re going to be rewarded for their knowledge of the history of Star Trek. For non-fans, it doesn’t matter, because we started by designing a story that stood on its own. It was an interesting process to develop a story where it didn’t matter what the name was. Once we had the structure, we decided Khan was perfect and we could make it even better and more specific.”

http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/features/alex-kurtzman-bob-orci-star-trek-into-darkness.php

=================================

If you need more proof, google it.

912. Ahmed - November 26, 2013

@ 903. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 26, 2013

““We get that Kirk likes chasing ladies, we seen that already in two movies. So how about in the next one, you guys make him focus on the job & be a real starship captain. Give Uhura something to do other than fighting with or crying for her boyfriend, this is Star Trek, not Twilight.”

I agree completely.

Great post, Ahmed. Today’s a new day, my friend.”

Yes indeed, it is a new day, my friend. Glad that we agree on something :)

913. John - November 26, 2013

@ 912. Ahmed – November 26, 2013

things uhura did.

help in taking down khan

willing to swim with the guys in the beginning

speak to klingons on her own and not be interrupted. even spock said if you interrupt her you will unleash wrath on yourself.

She also showed good defensive combat skills with the Klingons..

Ahmeed I wonder why you did not point put kirk screaming, whining and yelling at Spock for not knowing how to be a good friend and having his back. Kirk even angrily uses a derogatory term to attack Spock in front of a higher ranked star fleet officer.

HOW COME YOU ARE NOT ASKING FOR KIRK TO BEHAVE.

Your intense hatred for Uhura is borderline delusional. Please just state the real reason why you truly hate her. She is a WOC and a woman.

Trek gets one lead female and she is turn to shreds by the fans. Ask me again why Star Wars kills Star Trek.

914. Keachick - November 26, 2013

Uhura fought the Klingons on Kronos and was at her communications station following Kirk’s orders at other points in the movie. Did you miss that? Oh dear – I guess that comes back to what many posters here appear to have when it comes to them negatively obsessing and critiquing the tiny seconds worth of snippets that somehow made it to the final cut where two or more people were actually shown and heard discussing feelings relevant to them personally and professionally, or a few seconds of film showing a character having a life (even something of a sex life, God forbid) outside of Starfleet rules, regulations and protocols…Oh the horror of it…

Orci/Kurtzman – Aren’t you ashamed of writing a few lines of dialogue that reveal the slightest ounce of normal humanity to be had between these characters? Well you really ought to be, according to many here. You mean, these characters are more than one/two dimensional beings? Once again – oh no, can’t be/shouldn’t be…

Obviously, these Star Trek films must be all about the carnage and blowhards in top positions screwing everyone and everything over…ain’t that right, people?

UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

915. boy and girl - November 26, 2013

@893. Unfortunately, I fear the next Trek will be stagnant at the box office, for a few reasons.

– When you look at the schedules of the powers that be, they are booked solid for the next couple of years. 50/50 odds, at best, of a movie being ready in 2016.

– Because of that busy schedule we are primed for a repeat of the circumstances that caused the STID script to be rushed.

– Creative straightjacket. I get that STID made money. Problem is, recycled Khan was not a compelling story. It would be one thing if K/O had a candid moment and admitted it was not the best creative decision they could have made, but they aren’t – in fact, they have spent a lot of time spinning the fantasy that the Khan/Kirk backstory is this rich and fertile story waiting to be told. Problem is, all this Khan richness is strictly a figment of their imagination. It doesn’t exist in the old or new universe. At all. Somehow I get the feeling that they want to turn Khan into Kirk’s Darth Vader. Sorry guys, but that has failure written all over it.
————————————————————————————————–

In other words you want K/O to have a slice of Humble pie and admit their wrong doings. hahahahahahahahahahaha. I DOUBT IT WOULD HAPPEN.

I wont mind Spock/Uhura but only if their relationship is written like it was in the first film. very mysterious, quite and anonymous. those are the type of romances I enjoy. Spock/Uhura gave me that in the first film not so much in the second film.

I believe Linderlof was the one that messed up the really cool romance they had just like he messed up the whole film with having khan , the re-harsh of spock’s death with Kirk’s death and action, action ,action

The year is finally over and lets all say it together. STID was a MESS of a film in terms of STORY.

Sorry guys but its so TRUE.

LOL.

916. Keachick - November 26, 2013

Ahmed – Thank you for posting the quotes and link. Yes, I do now remember reading this. I also recall writing that the two Khans (from Space Seed/TWOK and from STID) need to be formerly identified as being the same man in some form of canon. It appears that actual confirmation will come in the “almost canon” literary comic form, which is overseen by writer/producer Bob Orci.

Is the relevant IDW comic issue on sale yet? How can I import a copy of same?

917. dmduncan - November 26, 2013

911. Ahmed – November 26, 2013

The issue I have with what Bob is saying there is that while I AGREE that the movie should not RELY on previous knowledge of Khan for the benefit of audience members that will be coming to the movie without any history in Star Trek, neither should STID have DISREGARDED previous knowledge of Khan for those fans who will be bringing their historic knowledge into the theater with them.

It didn’t have to be an either or proposition. The end result didn’t have to look like they set their table up in MIDDLE EARTH for auditions.

918. Phil - November 26, 2013

@913. Rose, this faux anguish isn’t becoming of you. First point, Uhura didn’t fight the Klingons, she was BS’ing her way through that conversation, and was moments away from being gutted when Khan intervened. Likewise, beaming down and blasting Khan while her boyfriend was getting curbstomped is hardly going to qualify her for Seal Team Six anytime soon – fact is, the majority of her screen time centers on her relationship issues. Second – no one in their right mind is going to squeal about a character having a life outside of their job, as long as it’s something integral to the story. If it’s gratuitous, then people complain. You get defensive for the wrong reasons – all these observations want what you want, a strong, mature leader in Kirk, a competent professional in Uhura, instead of the caricatures we have been given.

919. SkiesSeven - November 26, 2013

I don’t think anyone has a problem with Kirk having a healthy sex life. The issue is how it was handled in STID. Kirk’s threesome with Beastie Boys music in the background was anything but wholesome.

920. Ahmed - November 26, 2013

@ 914. Keachick – November 26, 2013

“Is the relevant IDW comic issue on sale yet? How can I import a copy of same?”

It will be released in February 2014 & I guess you will find a copy in any comics store in your city.

“Star Trek: Khan #5 continues the story of the origins of Khan. Find out how he became known as John Harrison, and how his vendetta against Admiral Marcus and Section 31 began.

Written by Mike Johnson, with art by David Messina and cover by Paul Shipper, Star Trek: Khan #5 is overseen by Roberto Orci.”

http://www.trektoday.com/content/2013/11/star-trek-february-2014-comics/

921. Disinvited - November 26, 2013

#893. dmduncan – November 26, 2013
#911. Ahmed – November 26, 2013

I caught Lindelof’s interview at The Austin Film Festival again a while back, and FWIW he said JJ was the one who thought it would be cool to tell the Kirk story in the 2009 movie in a STAR WARS Luke fashion and in so declaring that, JJ also noted that Khan was the most famous Trek villain among STAR WARS fans.

#904. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 26, 2013

Indeed, and it would have been an even deeper expression of that sentiment if that dedication had managed to stay in most of the the foreign release prints of the movie. I don’t blame Bad Robot. It is probably the result of the same studio think that is currently tailoring edits to the foreign market of their release.

922. Phil - November 26, 2013

@900. It’s an expression of gratitude for those who volunteer to serve in the defense of the nation. End of story.

923. IDIC Lives, Reincarnated - November 26, 2013

TUP, you wrote, “I agree about Kirk. I understand this is his early years but now that I’ve seen the bumbling, ogling, goofball Kirk, I don”t want to see that era played out on screen.”

“I want TOS with modern graphics, modern creativity, big budget and young versions of not just Kirk & Spock, but Shatner and Nimoy.”

I AGREE!

Keachick, I got so sick of your argument style, I stopped commenting entirely about a month ago. I am sure you were happy to see me go but I might have had something to offer. There are not that many females on the site and I have been a Trekker for over 40 years, I wrote early fanfic, I campaigned to get the first shuttle named “Enterprise” and I campaigned for the first movie to be made (ST:TMP). I am a professional writer because of Trek – yes, I MIGHT have something to offer once in a while.

Now you just wrote, “Most of the attitudes expressed here, re the two main characters, are silly, unsympathetic and give me a headache.”

Yes, you said I gave you a headache too. You are a “right fighter” and you get in a dither, fly off and call people names. Then you dominate threads as you fling about. You called me “malevolent” – malevolent as in Ted Bundy, The Devil and Adolph Hitler. I am not malevolent, dear. You might want to look up the meaning, it is not a word to bandy about, calling people “malevolent” who disagree with you. I gave a number of logical reasons for my way of thinking and you simply got madder and madder. And yes, I turned to parody.

The stupid thing is, I agree with a lot, or some, of what you say. I have always been a Kirk fan.

However, TUP, for instance, has valuable insights (I happen to agree with him/her more than some)—- most people on this site have good insights regardless of it I agree withy them. Trekkers are intelligent for the most part. Their attitudes toward the 2 main characters are NOT “silly and unsympathetic” simply because they disagree with your perception of these characters. You must stop being childish, it belittles what you do say which is intelligent.

Seems you are constantly in a stew which gives you a headache as if we should care.You give these headaches to yourself, so no guilt trip taken by this malevolent being.

Learn to be tolerant. You talked a while ago on Buddhism and semi-connected new age thinking. I believe some guru called you “The Light of Wisdom” or similar. Really? I have been a new age writer, fairly well known, for over 30 years and I write science speculation (futurism). You really NEED NOT call me whatever you are going to call me at this point. Gee, thanks!

Like most of us, I love to see small peaks into the personal lives of the Trek characters but your version of what those personal peaks should be, are not mine. STID offered, IMO, cheap, even stupid, childish impressions of these personal peaks; they did not, for the most part, arise from what we know of the characters in TOS. And if they are not those TOS characters in the nu-universe, then let’s call them Capt. Smith and Mr. Schlok and just start anew.

Hey, NOW you can call me evil, malevolent and insulting. Go right ahead, I’m not here to stay. Life is too short to get into one of your self-imposed tangles.

924. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

@919

I disagree completely. The tribute to 911 vets SHOULD NOT be on the international release. It’s mean for the U.S. — where 911 occurred.

925. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

TrekMadeMeWonder,

For God’s sake, please spare me any more of your supposedly knowledgeable insights (err….political philosophy) on terrorism.

926. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

@Ahmed “Everyone on the planet agree that BC was playing Khan. All reviews agree it was Khan, the audience agree it was Khan. Bob said it was Khan million of times.”

AGREED. This has been covered so much. This is right up there with Keachick pretending I just made a lucky guess on my Khan prediction, even though I must have posted my series of deductions and clues 20 times here between late 2011 and early 2013.

I have come to the conclusion that Rose either has selective memory, or she is honestly just a forgetful person, and/or doesn’t pay much attention to the information that is posted here by others on a regular basis.

927. Phil - November 26, 2013

@921. Eh, you could make the case it could have been left on in NATO and other aligned nations. Pointless in nations that are sympathetic to the Jihadist cause.

928. Keachick - November 26, 2013

#921 – That means that you completely ignore any contributions made by the other nations who fought alongside the US in both Iraq and Afghanistan in order to bring to justice (if possible) those responsible for the heinous acts of terrorism that occurred on 9/11 in the USA. Those nations were, I believe, the UK, Italy, NZ, Australia and some others. The number of military personnel involved compared with the numbers coming from the US were smaller but still deserved some consideration.

Other, albeit smaller, terrorist acts have been committed by either Al Qaeda or its followers on European soil since 9/11.

“For God’s sake, please spare me any more of your supposedly knowledgeable insights (err….political philosophy) on terrorism.”

MJ – This site or thread is not just yours to enjoy or otherwise. Obviously, this is not a site about politics and discussion thereof, but TMMW can say what he/she thinks may be important and relevant to what was told in the most recent Star Trek movie. TMMW did post some good questions. Unfortunately I do not think good (as in well informed and thought out) answers are necessarily that forthcoming in this respect.

929. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

@925 The message in STID clearly states:

“THIS FILM IS DEDICATED TO OUR POST-9/11 VETERANS
WITH GRATITUDE FOR THEIR INSPIRED SERVICE ABROAD
AND CONTINUED LEADERSHIP AT HOME”

So, you see it says “ABROAD,” and “AT HOME”, which clearly implies the U.S. audience. Now, if you want to argue that this message should have been more inclusive of other nations, then that is a good discussion to have — but that is not what this message in its original form in STID says.

“Obviously, this is not a site about politics and discussion thereof,”

Exactly. Which is why I posted that reply to TrekMadeWeWonder. His obvious goal is to use this discussion to eventually lead us to his 911 truther wackjob stuff, and I will have no part of that. But then again, with your “forgetfulness” issues, you probably don’t remember his posts on that. ;-)

930. Phil - November 26, 2013

@925. Well, the NATO, ANZUS, and EAPC treaties cover a lot of nations – and the Madrid and Bali bombings were noteworthy in their scope. Don’t have the numbers in front of me, but the number of Australians and New Zealanders killed in the Bali attack, as a percentage of the population, was pretty high.

I have no issues paying respects to those who stood with us, regardless of nationality.

931. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

Yea, in retrospect, they should have had a more inclusive message that thanked the entire coalition of nations. But they didn’t — the message they provided was obviously intended for the U.S. audience only. Given that U.S.-centric message that they used, then I can see why it wasn’t put on the international release…heck, Keachick’s reaction shows that it actually might unintentionally insult other countries like NZ who were part of the coalition.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
924. Phil – November 26, 2013
@921. Eh, you could make the case it could have been left on in NATO and other aligned nations. Pointless in nations that are sympathetic to the Jihadist cause.

932. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

This would have been a better message that could have been put on the worldwide release of STID:

“THIS FILM IS DEDICATED TO OUR POST-9/11 VETERANS
WITH GRATITUDE FOR THEIR INSPIRED SERVICE AND THEIR
CONTINUED LEADERSHIP IN THEIR COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE GLOBE”

933. Keachick - November 26, 2013

Bob Orci never said that BC was Khan a million times – hyperbole much.

What we had was rumour. Anyone can spout rumours but that does not necessarily make any rumour fact, a reality, no matter how often you repeat them!

MJ (et al) – I read your pages of so-called “clues” and your reasoning and it is still as faulty as it ever was. Do not accuse me of not paying attention. Sometimes I wish I didn’t. There was so much ridiculous codswallop. That was my opinion then and now. Deal with it. Get over it.
As I wrote before – we will agree to disagree?

#917 – “I don’t think anyone has a problem with Kirk having a healthy sex life. The issue is how it was handled in STID. Kirk’s threesome with Beastie Boys music in the background was anything but wholesome.”

Whoa! Given that the entire scene probably lasted all of five (maybe ten) seconds, the harsh judgment is rather baseless.

First – are people to be judged on how “wholesome” they are by the music they choose to listen to in their own time?

Second – for me, wholesome sexual activity means that consent is given by all parties involved, whether it be just two or more than two, without any undue pressure to consent being put on any one or more people. Consent also means that it is given for acts that may involve forms of bondage etc. In other words, both or all want to be intimately, sexually with the other(s) of their own free will.

The scene appeared to fulfill the criteria as above. Clearly one of the females reaffirmed her consent, her desire and appreciation. Neither seemed to want Kirk to leave…we never did get to know the women’s names or the conversation that occurred once he received the phone message… because –
the scene was abruptly cut to the next one where we see Kirk excitedly talking to Spock about the possibility of them going on the proposed “five year mission”.

As for “wholesome” – that is more of a personal opinion, understanding, attitude, than it is a public one. The scene showed the activities taking place in a room in privacy, away from other prying eyes (ie for audience eyes only).

This is the 23rd century Star Trek universe where similar humanoid life has been discovered on other planets in other star systems and as with various peoples and cultures on earth, there have been and are variations on how sexual matters are understood and played out. Polygamy, bigamy, polyandry, orgies, same sex relationships etc have all been a part of human sexual behaviour.
(I exclude pedophilia and bestiality from this list, because, for one thing, I do not believe that proper, genuine consent can be given by a child or obviously any animal, not to mention other factors.)

I keep thinking that those two “cat” women are a pair. That is just who they are, ie you have both of us or none. Kirk, being the lovable ladies’ man, chose both, because both has certainly got to be better than none or so he hopes(?)…:)

934. Ahmed - November 26, 2013

@ 930. Keachick – November 26, 2013

“Bob Orci never said that BC was Khan a million times – hyperbole much.

What we had was rumour. Anyone can spout rumours but that does not necessarily make any rumour fact, a reality, no matter how often you repeat them!”

A rumor !!! How is it a rumor if the actor (BC), the director (Abrams) & the writers (Bob, Alex & Damon) are all saying it is Khan ???

935. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

@931

If Keachick forgets something, then that means it never happened.

:-))

936. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

“Second – for me, wholesome sexual activity means that consent is given by all parties involved, ..”

Sounds good to me, but I would rather his not be in Star Trek. Chick flicks, dramas, romantic comedies, — I am with you.

937. Keachick - November 26, 2013

#928 – I have not seen the message on film, obviously because it only showed in US cinemas. There is nothing on the DVD. I guess as it stood, it might not have read so well to people watching the movie in the UK etc. Your revised message reads well, sounds good…:)

I was only aware of the message honouring servicemen and veterans because of coming to this, a US site.

938. Ahmed - November 26, 2013

@ 933. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 26, 2013

” “Second – for me, wholesome sexual activity means that consent is given by all parties involved, ..”

Sounds good to me, but I would rather his not be in Star Trek. Chick flicks, dramas, romantic comedies, — I am with you.”

Yep

939. Disinvited - November 26, 2013

#929. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 26, 2013

Now I agree with your better international message on this. However, I disagree with you that a thank you note inclusively dedicated to those serving “abroad” best expresses its sentiment to those so serving by NOT being in editions of the film readily seen by them, abroad.

940. Keachick - November 26, 2013

OK – It was a rumour that whichever actor was chosen would be playing Khan as in the Khan Noonien Singh played by Hispanic actor, Ricardo Montalban, because it was looking as if one or other of two Spanish actors was going to be in the film. However, when Benedict Cumberbatch was cast, most people thought that it was unlikely that (TOS/TWOK) Khan would be in the film after all.

The first possible clue that BC could well be a Khan came with the unofficial pictures showing BC’s character fighting Quinto/Spock and appearing to beat him. This lead some to think that since Spock is part Vulcan and therefore much stronger than most humans, then this other person must be an augment of some kind, and possibly even Khan, since the KNS character had been genetically engineered to be very strong as well.

However, the notion that a “pasty white Brit” could play a character of swarthy North Indian descent, with the name to go with it, either annoyed and/or appalled many or the notion was simply seen as unreasonable and silly. Oh dear…

The fact is that it was only revealed that Benedict Cumberbatch was indeed playing a character who called himself Khan (no other names) when the STID premiere was first screened in Sydney, Australia etc. One or two who had been lucky enough to see the premiere in Sydney, blabbed on the internet, despite JJ Abrams specifically asking the audience not to reveal anything to people in general. One of our own journalists was there and he reviewed the movie for TV3 News/Nightline and he was able to “keep mum” but not these other trolling berks.

#933 – Is not Star Trek (in any and all its iterations) drama? Where and in what time period the stories may take place is not the issue. It is still drama and so are most “chick flicks” dramas. Star Trek is drama and it is about people living in a time where exploring outer space in starships, living on other worlds et al are possible. Most of the main characters in this alternate universe are humans, who are not too dissimilar to us…

941. Disinvited - November 26, 2013

#929. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 26, 2013

Hmm…looking more closely at it as you posted it. I don’t think we are as far apart on this as I had supposed. I took “Post 9/11 Veterans” to mean veterans of the “tragedy” but I think I see where you are coming from. So I am willing to leave it at your revised International message fills the bill.

942. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 26, 2013

@937.

Sounds good!

943. SkiesSeven - November 26, 2013

@Keachick

The threesome scene was immoral. You certainly wouldn’t teach a child that it’s okay to sleep with more than one person so long as it’s ‘consensual’. Consent does not make something right, or even healthy. In reality group-sex poses serious health risks. It doesn’t matter if the scene was only a few seconds, impressionable young minds are easily influenced, and STID is only PG-13. If it were any other franchise I honestly wouldn’t care, but Star Trek is different.

944. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 27, 2013

900

Good honest truthful answer. Thank you.

922.

I will try. Unless it’s relevant to discussion.

920. Phil

I like that. Much more focused. Plus it really compliments what should be the true spirit of Star Trek into Darkness.

945. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 27, 2013

Last post had typo (bold). Sorry.

920. Phil

Good honest truthful answer. Thank you.

922.

I will try. Unless it’s relevant to discussion.

920. Phil

I like that. Much more focused. Plus it really compliments what should be the true spirit of Star Trek into Darkness.

946. TUP - November 27, 2013

Im sorry you are easily impressed Keachick. I expect more. Especially when logic and common sense is not that difficult.

No excuse for lazy writing. or lazy posting.

947. crazydaystrom - November 27, 2013

942. TUP
Jeez TUP. You know we’re each entitled to our own opinions, even yours as you expressed there. You might characterize something as ‘lazy’ and another might another way. That’s cool. But these are just opinions and as such, subjective. So why not just say “our opinions differ”, as opposed to inferring laziness. Why can’t we be more respectful here? And why not?

IDIC

948. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#939 – Personally I do not believe that a threesome is necessarily immoral. What’s more, it really is none of anyone’s business other than the parties involved.

Even a couple who do not practice safe sex may end up with an STD or the HIV virus. Most people do not have more than one partner at a time, but it is really not much different from people engaging in casual, promiscuous, where they may having sexual relations with a different person every other night, week, whatever. Being aware of the dangers of possibly transmitting or being on the receiving end of a STD or the incurring of an unwanted pregnancy is something everyone/anyone who is sexually active needs to take into account, no matter how many other people share the bed.

For the Caitians, two females sharing a bed with a man, especially if he is an alien, like a human, may be considered quite normal and not violate any codes of morality within that society.

949. Keachick - November 27, 2013

Well, TUP, I am not at all impressed by you and your accusations of my laziness.

Given how often you like using the word “lazy”, I was wondering if you had undertaken a touch typing course where you had to practice typing “The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog” and keep getting stuck on the word “lazy”.

How shall I put this? – Sod off!

950. Keachick - November 27, 2013

edit – should read “…in casual, promiscuous SEX, where they may BE having…” – thinking the word while typing the next word…

951. Keachick - November 27, 2013

For some reason, my post responding to Ahmed and MJ at posts #931/932 respectively has not reappeared here. It appeared but has gone now. I am not sure why it has gone because I did not write anything that was so untoward to anyone…Oh well, just have to wait and see…I guess Matt is busy at the moment.

952. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#944 crazydaystrom – I had written my post at #946 before I saw your post. Thank you for being more polite than I have just been.

I try not to be lazy, as in I do make an effort to look at different perspectives and possible interpretations, however, sometimes what others say and have said in the past still does not make sense/add up for me.

I do not think I am brighter nor more stupid than other people posting here. It’s just that I think in a different way at times. Oh, and anyone can experience “selective memory”, whether intentional or otherwise. I do not appreciate being singled out as being “lazy” or having “selective memory”.

Thank you.

953. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 27, 2013

There are worse pejoratives that could be said of a person, Keachick.

Try kooky. ;: )

I am just glad I had a chance to view my opinions here for other STID viewers to consider. Thanks again all, and TM!

954. Keachick - November 27, 2013

OT – What’s with celebrities being potty mouths on chat shows recorded for television and before live audiences?

If I go around swearing and dropping F-bombs in public, I am as likely to get reported to the boys in blue and get warned to tone down the bad language or suffer the consequences, like being arrested, fined etc.

However, celebrities like (Sir) Elton John can be heard on The Graham Norton Show in front of a live audience dropping the F-word like candy, or more like, dog poo. Then I read a good transcription of an interview with Chris Pine and right at the end, Chris just has to drop the F-word, as if on cue.

These people – actors, singers et al – get well paid for most of their appearances and/or interviews and frankly I do not think that money is for swearing in public as if it were some badge of honour.

It is not pleasant to read or hear.

I realize that people swear when they are upset, angry, frustrated. Swearing can be cathartic in these situations. However, being interviewed on a chat show or as an emcee for a premiere screening of a portion of a movie that you have just appeared in is a situation that would surely not cause such people to feel hurt, frustrated or angry – I would think, far from it.

If any celebrities are reading this –
Please – Refrain from *crapping* on readers and audiences alike with such frequent use of bad, obscene, coarse language. Most of you have much talent, ability, education and money, which can be a lot more than many of your fans and members of the general public, who may go see your movies and/or buy your music etc, will ever have. Using coarse language feels like you are being negative and snarky towards everyone and everything. It does not feel or look good. It is not entertaining!

955. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#949 – Wow – so what have I done to you to deserve this comment?

Pejorative – as in “Disparaging; belittling. n. A disparaging or belittling word or expression.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative

Kooky – as in
“Synonyms
bizarre, bizarro, cranky, crazy, curious, eccentric, erratic, far-out, funky, funny, kinky, odd (also kookie), offbeat, off-kilter, off-the-wall, outlandish, out-of-the-way, outré, peculiar, quaint, queer, queerish, quirky, remarkable, rum [chiefly British], screwy, spaced-out, strange, wacky (also whacky), way-out, weird, weirdo, wild

Related Words
aberrant, abnormal, addlepated, flaky; extraordinary, fantastic (also fantastical), freak, freakish, freaky, phantasmagoric (or phantasmagorical), phenomenal; atypical, rare, singular, uncommon, uncustomary, unique, unusual, unwonted; conspicuous, notable, noticeable, outstanding, prominent, salient, striking; atrocious, outrageous, shocking; crotchety, idiosyncratic, nonconformist, nonmainstream, out-there, unconventional, unorthodox; baffling, bewildering, confounding, mystifying, perplexing, puzzling”

Take your pick – it seems “kooky” has many meanings attached to the word, some less pejorative than others.

I guess you are trying to be funny or something, except I am not smiling…:(

TMMW – Find someone else to be pejorative towards, or better still, quit while you are (almost) ahead.

956. Phil - November 27, 2013

@950 I suspect some of these guys do it to stay ‘edgy’, whatever that may mean. It’s not usually necessary and frequently juvenile.

957. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 27, 2013

Notice how for the third time in three days, TUP’s posts are right in succession with TrekMadeMeWonder’s posts….

And stop calling people lazy, troll.

958. TUP - November 27, 2013

I agree with respect for others’ opinion. And its a two way street. When Keachick learns to respect others I will show him/her some respect. Until then, Keachick;s opinion is rather moot.

Its one thing to debate major creative decisons. I focus on some of the smaller ones because the fact the small issues squeeked through is indicative of a larger issue.

959. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 27, 2013

People can disagree on whether multiple person sex acts are moral or immoral, but I would hope that 90% of us here (Keachick excluded, since she always defends that scene) can at least agree that we don’t need this in a major Star Trek movie?

That scene just rubs me the wrong way (no pun intended).

960. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 27, 2013

@957 Hey troll, you being critical of others’ respect for people, is like Mylie Cyrus complaining that someone flashed her in public.

961. boy - November 27, 2013

943. SkiesSeven – November 26, 2013
@Keachick

The threesome scene was immoral. You certainly wouldn’t teach a child that it’s okay to slee p with more than one person so long as it’s ‘consensual’. Consent does not make something right, or even healthy. In reality group-sex poses serious health risks. It doesn’t matter if the scene was only a few seconds, impressionable young minds are easily influenced, and STID is only PG-13. If it were any other franchise I honestly wouldn’t care, but Star Trek is different.
——————————————————————-

This is why I wish K/O Linderlof will stay away from TREK.

962. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 27, 2013

Come on Matt, that was funny! ;-)

963. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#956 – Excuse me. You were not showing me any respect which is why I told you to sod off…Of course, my opinions are moot or I am “kooky” (TMMW) because many of you appear to not like what I say or feel nor seem to understand that well sometimes. I could say the same about your opinions, TUP, but I haven’t – yet…:(

#957 – I don’t just defend that scene just because there is a threesome. I would defend a scene being in a Star Trek if Kirk was shown being with one woman, engaging in some form of consensual sexual intimacy. Expression of sexuality is certainly part of who Kirk is and he is not a lot different to other humans, either now or at a future time.

Phil – were you actually referring to my post at #954 – re OT – on celebrities and bad language? It does seem that the more comments that are posted onto one thread, the more likely it is that some people will see posts with different numbers beside them compared with what others might see on their screens…hmmm?

964. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 27, 2013

Looks like we face the possibility of Kirk’s first son being Katian?

965. Phil - November 27, 2013

@959. Yeah. Won’t swear I didn’t type in the wrong post number, though…

966. Keachick - November 27, 2013

IDIC – Yes, I remember your name. Why have you come back here a month later simply to berate me over my intolerance and me calling you malevolent? How tolerant or sensible is this behaviour of yours right now?

I have no answer for your assertions because I know how whatever I write, at this point, will get twisted.

I don’t see what is so relevant about the fact that you have been a Star Trek fan for more than 40 years or have been writer of fanfiction or are a professional writer now. Does that give you a sense of superiority that whatever opinions you hold must be of greater worth and relevance than those of others?

My “selective memory” truly is operating again because I cannot remember what the arguments we had were about, although a quick reminder will no doubt bring it flooding back, along with the headache.

I am no more argumentative, rude, obnoxious or anything than anybody else has been over time on this site. That is the truth!

967. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#961 – The word is Caitian. Well, you never know, and what beautiful child he will be ‘n’ all – loving that tail already…:)!

968. Keachick - November 27, 2013

Correction – The *cat* lady, who asks Jim if he really must answer that, has the son and the other pretty lady has the daughter and they will be the most beautiful children in all the galaxy. Their tails will swish like no other and each time a person sees either the girl or boy with either parents, there will be no doubt that James Tiberius Kirk is truly the dad and either of the females with no name is indeed the mother.

Glorious days ahead – their conceptions and birth are truly good omens!

969. TUP - November 27, 2013

I was not disrespectful to you. You asked me what my problem was and told me to give it a rest. Thats when I called you a lazy poster (much like Orci called me a lazy viewer).

Calling these writers lazy is sort of a compliment. It implies they know better and can do better. They are just lazy and more focused on big explosions.

970. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#965 – I did not know that calling someone lazy could be interpreted as a compliment. I did not feel like it was one.

Use of the word “lazy” when it comes to critiquing screenplay writing of these Star Trek films has become something of a cliche and a derogatory one at that. You and others have overused this derogatory description to the point where use by posters seems like they are too “lazy” to think of another word to describe what it is that they negatively critiquing. I suspect that maybe one of the reasons why Bob Orci had called you a “lazy viewer” was because you have consistently been calling him and his co-writers “lazy”.

Let me help you – instead of “lazy” – perhaps use of words like “unimaginative”, “careless”, “slothful”, “idle”, “dull”, “tired”, “uneventful”, “drab” etc – then again it is possible that none of those words might apply, since “lazy” probably does not apply either necessarily when you think it does.

971. crazydaystrom - November 27, 2013

952. Keachick
#944 crazydaystrom – I had written my post at #946 before I saw your post. Thank you for being more polite than I have just been.

You are very welcome.
:-)

972. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

Here’s a test question for some of you. Which one is the Punjabi Sikh?

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trending-now/web-responds-to-gap-s-defense-of-sikh-model-in-ad-campaign-185522447.html?vp=1

973. Marja - November 27, 2013

911 Ahmed, Orci: Once we had a story that stood on its own without relying on previous knowledge of Star Trek or Khan, we thought, “Well, does Khan add anything to it? If we were to put Khan into this movie, do the details of his life and backstory add something?

Uh … not so much, Bob. He could have remained “Harrison” with the same backstory, but y’all went and threw in Khan which PO’d a lot of people or outright puzzled others … OOPS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N15J4ibej8

974. Marja - November 27, 2013

913 John, 914 Keachick, I second you, sir and madam. I am so frikking tired of people saying Uhura “only” fights with or cries for her boyfriend. She was shown to be a dynamite Starfleet officer, but because of the “fight” [actually a discussion of something that concerned her greatly] took place in front of others, necessitated by rushing everything to fit inside of two hours, it makes only Uhura look bad to people.

How about how Kirk’s feelings of anger over Pike’s death lead to his wanting to hunt down the one what killed him? How about Marcus’s paranoia that led to the whole abuse of Section 31 and Khan? How about looking at how male emotions DRIVE THE ENTIRE PLOT? Eh?

Oh … because they’re males, you say. Oh, well, then, I guess that’s just fine. [Feh!]

975. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 27, 2013

Y’know, it’s getting tougher and tougher to be a Trekkie these days.

976. Marja - November 27, 2013

918 Phil, Uhura didn’t fight the Klingons, she was BS’ing her way through that conversation, and was moments away from being gutted when Khan intervened. Likewise, beaming down and blasting Khan while her boyfriend was getting curbstomped is hardly going to qualify her for Seal Team Six anytime soon – fact is, the majority of her screen time centers on her relationship issues. Second – no one in their right mind is going to squeal about a character having a life outside of their job, as long as it’s something integral to the story.

“Khan intervened.” Yes, and a male character shown in EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION, who thought quickly and STABBED THE KLINGON WITH HIS OWN KNIFE, would have been lauded. But no, it’s Uhura, so she was “saved by Khan.”

“while her boyfriend was getting curbstomped” … it still took guts to go down there, NOT KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT THE SITUATION WAS. I imagine if she’d gone down and engaged Khan karate-style, that still would not have satisfied some fans because she’d either be “too macho” or “stupid” to go after him without a phaser.

“the majority of her screen time centers on her relationship issues.” Um … so the scene on the bridge, in which she’s relaying what’s going on with Spock’s comms, that centers completely around her emotions? Her emotions are a feature of that scene but I wouldn’t say all her business in the scene is emoting over Spock.

She IS shown to be clearly emotional – as who would not be, in the moment of hearing a loved one go to his death? But she gets right back to work. And before people say, “Yeah, but only when the Captain told her to,” I say, sure, and when the helmsman is maneuvering, the Captain issues orders: “hard aport,” &c. Nobody’s on Sulu’s case about that, are they? Because “he’s not doing his job until told to”?

I will say, the writers/director seem to use Uhura to showcase all the emotions underlying a scene, which does not mightily please me, as I’d rather see her being cool in the event and “having a moment” after – but would Abrams permit of 30 seconds to show that, away from Uhura’s duty station? Naaah. I’m sure they make her the emotional focal point because it’s socially accepted that women feel, men act; but partly, I’m sure, because Zoe Saldana does such a good job with this.

977. SkiesSeven - November 27, 2013

@Keachick

“For the Caitians, two females sharing a bed with a man, especially if he is an alien, like a human, may be considered quite normal and not violate any codes of morality within that society.”

——-

Clearly the intent behind that scene was not about exploring an alien culture, it was a cheap attempt to broaden the film’s sex appeal. The women were presented as nothing more than disposable pleasures – literally brainless sex kittens. Moreover Kirk cannot be taken seriously as a leader when he’s behaving like a juggler.

978. Marja - November 27, 2013

919 Skies, I wasn’t crazy about Kirk’s “threesome” either. Unwholesome is not the word I would use. Unneccessary, more like. I’d have been fine with him wooing a clearly alien woman, this shows his openness to others, but the now-cliche of a “super masculine” guy having a threesome b/c he just has so much manhood to spare is really tiresome Hollywood trope. It’s not funny and it didn’t do anything to advance Kirk’s character.

His “Hi, ladies, howya doing? I’m Kirk, Jim Kirk,” scene was kind of cute. It shows something about his character, that he’ll try to make friends, especially with women, that he was on top of the world in that scene, thus his ebulliently announcing who he was to the attractive ladies. Perhaps in hopes of “getting lucky,” but in a way I found much more young-Kirk-like. JMHO.

979. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

973. SkiesSeven – November 27, 2013

Clearly the intent behind that scene was not about exploring an alien culture, it was a cheap attempt to broaden the film’s sex appeal. The women were presented as nothing more than disposable pleasures – literally brainless sex kittens. Moreover Kirk cannot be taken seriously as a leader when he’s behaving like a juggler.

***

Don’t you mean when he’s behaving like a jugs-ler?

980. Keachick - November 27, 2013

Is this a trick question, because one would assume that the Sikh is the man wearing the turban? His skin is quite fair.

981. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

Actually, I read the cat girls scene as showing that Kirk hadn’t matured much yet. His eyes are still pulling him uncontrollably toward the candy store.

982. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

976. Keachick – November 27, 2013

Is it a trick question? Possibly—if you like to trick yourself you might see it that way.

983. IDIC Lives, Reincarnated - November 27, 2013

TUP -” I agree with respect for others’ opinion. And its a two way street. When Keachick learns to respect others I will show him/her some respect. Until then, Keachick;s opinion is rather moot.”

TUP – My comment, #923, took a long time to be posted. I hope you saw it, however.

I left several months ago because when I protested Keachick’s lack of respect/acceptance for me to have an opinion (which was in line with TOS and the films, by the way),
crazydaystrom chimed in with “Everyone should be peaceful” or some platitude as if indulging a petulant (adult) child is virtuous. All in all, it lowers the quality of comments on the site because one can’t help but get embroiled in insisting that one does in fact have an intelligent opinion, no matter what Keachick insists. Yet as a last stand, she casts herself as The Victim. This happens over and over. “Peace” at all costs lowers standards, crazydaystrom. Trek deserves better.

I know there are other disputes on the site but those usually have some basic philosophical difference, like those who love STID and those who hate STID. But Keachick gets involved in small subjects of all kinds and rides them into the ground when someone dares express a different opinion.

There is a way to show respect to other commenters. I am sure she will now say that I am showing her no respect, so I’ll save her the trouble. You show respect, you receive respect, but this goes on in serial insult/petulance way on the site, the only common denominator is – Keachick.

Keachick you ask me how tolerant is my behavior right now? Yes, you always try to turn it like that, it gets old. Face it, this is about you, not TUP, me, or whoever you have battled with recently.

No, I do not think I am superior because I have writing experience and a long record with Trek. But, dear, you need to learn to respect the other person as you comment, whoever they are. I might have something to offer – yes. If you valued Trek instead of your own opinion, you might be receptive and open.

As TUP says, when you learn to respect others, they will respect you. Until then, you chase off people who have some possibly interesting input and that is a shame for this site.

By the way, if Chris Pine wants to say f____, good for him. Are you the f___ police now? Actually if he had been able to say f___ a few times in STID, it would have been very apropos. I bet Chris Pine is malevolent too.

984. SkiesSeven - November 27, 2013

@dmduncan

The one who made the connection to Zapp Brannigan was spot-on.

985. Keachick - November 27, 2013

The reason that people are so antsy against the Kirk and two Caitians is because the whole scene was abruptly cut short. These females have no names, other than Caitian no-name 1 and Caitian no-name 2. I am guessing this was a director’s decision ultimately and it is bad because unfortunately, they tend to seen by so many as nothing more than “sex kittens”, which they are not.

However, what is also alarming is how many people here, especially the males, make bold, negative assumptions about these characters like dmduncan’s comment “brainless sex kittens”. None of us have any idea just how brainy or otherwise they might have been because the writers/director never gave us the opportunity to find out. That would have meant less time taken showing Kirk being brutally kicked over and over or the overly long scenes of Spock chasing and fighting Khan etc…:((

I do not see how Kirk capacity to make love, be affectionate, towards two women at the same time has anything to do with his leadership abilities. Besides, we were granted a very brief interlude into Kirk’s private life, something that presumably Starfleet would/should not be overly concerned about. Clearly, he responded to the call from Pike promptly.

Actually I think that you are all quite sexist.

These criticisms of this tiny aspect of the film are tiresome and reactionary.

986. Marja - November 27, 2013

954 Keachick, The “f” word is now what “oh my God” used to be. An exclamation, at least here in the US. It’s now a modifier, and it has become quite, quite common these days. [You may be amused to know that the word “common” can also mean low-class.] It is used pretty extensively in the service, and I recall our company being told in Boot Camp, before we graduated, “Now when you get home, whatever you do, don’t ask Grandma to pass the f*ckin’ butter.”

987. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

978. SkiesSeven – November 27, 2013

The Honest Trailers short for STID describes Kirk as “the galaxy’s worst starfleet captain.”

Ouch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B22Uy7SBe4&list=SP86F4D497FD3CACCE&index=12

988. Marja - November 27, 2013

948 Kea, “Personally I do not believe that a threesome is necessarily immoral. What’s more, it really is none of anyone’s business other than the parties involved.”

First, I like your idea that this kind of sex is quite normal for certain aliens. I accept that, and might find it intriguing in the course of a novel in which this could be explained.

What I didn’t like was, it was contemporary Hollywood shorthand for “what a manly man Kirk is! What a user of women! How we Hollywood men admire him!” I didn’t like that the women were “disposable,” obviously a one-night stand, and I didn’t like that this took place in a movie that is PG-13.

You and I share the same anathema for the extreme violence depicted, which I also believe has no place in a PG-13 movie [crushing heads? I mean, yecccchhhh].

989. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

980. Keachick – November 27, 2013

However, what is also alarming is how many people here, especially the males, make bold, negative assumptions about these characters like dmduncan’s comment “brainless sex kittens”.

***

Um. Correct attribution is important, Keachick. I didn’t call them that.

990. Red Dead Ryan - November 27, 2013

No matter how hard Keachick tries to justify it, there was absolutely no need for the Kirk/Caitian pourn scene. “Star Trek” isn’t some raunchy rom-com — never was, and never will be.

991. Marja - November 27, 2013

Not to mention the groaner of a pun that “Kirk got some tail”

992. Ahmed - November 27, 2013

@ 984. Red Dead Ryan – November 27, 2013

“No matter how hard Keachick tries to justify it, there was absolutely no need for the Kirk/Caitian pourn scene. “Star Trek” isn’t some raunchy rom-com — never was, and never will be.”

Agreed.

Keachick, if you look at any major Sci-Fi/Fantasy franchise like Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings, Terminator, Alien, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter ..etc, you will hardly find any sex scene, let alone threesome. Some movies are simply not the right place for these kind of scenes.

993. K-7 - November 27, 2013

Weird how Keachick hates the use of the “F” word in public so much, yet she’s calling more more Fing in Star Trek films?

What hypocrisy! Make up you mind? The act is OK in media, but the word isn’t?

Huh???

How about this — let’s not hear the work or see the act in major Star Trek movies. That would be a fully consistent opinion.

994. K-7 - November 27, 2013

correction: “hear the word”

995. K-7 - November 27, 2013

@983

“However, what is also alarming is how many people here, especially the males, make bold, negative assumptions about these characters like dmduncan’s comment “brainless sex kittens”.

Well, for my part, I’ll say it directly with no qualms — the come across like brainless sex kittens. OMG, I just said that…oh no!

LOL

996. K-7 - November 27, 2013

@974 “but the now-cliche of a “super masculine” guy having a threesome b/c he just has so much manhood to spare is really tiresome Hollywood trope. It’s not funny and it didn’t do anything to advance Kirk’s character.”

Well said, Marja

997. Marja - November 27, 2013

It was SkiesSeven: “The women were presented as nothing more than disposable pleasures – literally brainless sex kittens.”

Key words: PRESENTED AS. and DISPOSABLE PLEASURES.

Which is part of what offended both of us, I think, Keachick.

998. K-7 - November 27, 2013

@991. Yea, that’s why it had a “pourn-like” quality to it versus a legitimate love scene. Exactly. It was basically, wow, this time Kirk really went on a bender.

999. Red Shirt Diaries - November 27, 2013

#992

I agree with you and Marja. The scene was pretty much a guys behaving badly approach — like it was addressed to single males under 30 who would have a thought upon seeing it, like:

“Jimmy-boy, you dog you, nicely done — HI FIVE!, bro!”

Did we really need to see Kirk’s take on Charlie Sheen? I say NO.

1000. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 27, 2013

That scene was aletdown for me cause they made no attempt to present an effective practical fx cat-woman.

This would have been 1st time onscreen for such a makup challenge. Imagine a “naked” fur covered cat-woman and you will find that scene laking for its delivery.

1001. DiscoSpock - November 27, 2013

“Did we really need to see Kirk’s take on Charlie Sheen? I say NO.”

You know, you don’t think that scene was and indirect joke concerning Sheen’s “Tiger Blood” saying, do you?

We have Sheen, the guy who is the king of threesomes, and who says “Tiger Blood” all the time — and here then is wild alternate Jim Kirk having two “Tigers” as his adult play-toys in a threesome.

Might this be a deliberate Hollywood inside joke?

1002. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 27, 2013

All,

Look at this discussion we are having. Do we need anything more than our own discussion here to prove here was a dumb-ass idea it was for them to put that scene in STID?

That is a cringe-worthy Trek scene on the level of Row Your Boat and Uhura’s song scene in Trek V….but at least those scenes has good intentions behind them.

1003. Basement Blogger - November 27, 2013

@ 979

Keachick I agree with some of your points. The scene was to demonstrate that Kirk was a ladies man. There’s an axiom in screenplay writing to show not tell. And that scene shows it versus Spock saying, “Jim I hear you’re quite the ladies’ man.” One of the attributes of Kirk from TOS was that he was a ladies’s man. Heck, we get some of that from older Trek movies. See Star Trek IV and Star Trek VI. The scene with the two women is supposed to be humorous.

People sometimes take things too seriously. There’s a gratuitous scene in Thor: The Dark World where we see Thor without his armor or shirt cleaning up. It’s obviously there to show off Chris Hemsworth’s bodacious body. And Marvel doesn’t flinch. There’s a humorous scene where a London woman can’t resist touching his chest very similar to Agent Carter touching Captain Americans’ chest. Funny stuff about the human condition which includes sexuality.

1004. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

Threesomes are vulgar and it doesn’t fit my image of James T. Kirk for him to be implicated in one, but it fits this new guy they are calling James T. Kirk.

Apparently, Zapp Brannigan was imagined as half Kirk half Shatner. They tried to imagine what sort of starship captain William Shatner himself might be and Zapp Brannigan is what they came up with.

To be fair, there are plenty of serious scenes in STID where Pine is not parodying Kirk, but rarely does he impress me AS Kirk, and it’s hard to forget the impression the parody sequences make.

1005. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#987 – Wow, that is just so rude. If you recall my comments here, I have not referred to Kirk “fing” the Caitian women. I have described such activity as being consensual, intimate, affectionate expression of sexuality. Sometimes the F-word can be used in the context of sexual expression, but most of the time, it is used in the manner that Marja has described, which is just crude and a derogatory term that also relates, reminds people of human sexual expression in a debased way.

I am curious as to how many other Hollywood movies have shown men having a threesome. Which other films have this “trope”?

There are areas here of agreement and some not. What I do NOT agree with is that scenes depicting consensual, affectionate sexual intimacy between two or more people don’t belong in a Star Trek movie. I think they can and do and I am not remotely concerned about what may or may not be shown in other sci-fi/fantasy movies.

What I DO AGREE with is that the scene in question was not done as well as it could have been. For a start it needed to be longer and not abruptly cut as it was.

Kirk could have been able to call at least one of the women by name. Perhaps he could only hear the phone but not find it and realizes that one of the women has hidden it. He stresses to her just how important answering is and they are seen “maturing up” and accepting that their fun time has to be put on hold for another time. Perhaps one of them reluctantly says she needs to get ready to go on her shift at Starfleet or wherever, while the other says, “Don’t worry, Jim and *Serrah, I’ll tidy up here. Go!” They give one another goodbye hugs and the two set off.

Later, the one who has stayed back to tidy up, meets Kirk in the bar. He is looking very down and miserable but still greets her with “Hi, *Kerrana!” She asks “What’s the matter? What’s happened?” and just as she is about to sit next to Kirk, coming from a different direction is Pike who does his “cockblock”. Pike receives a Caitian tail across his face for his impertinence and Kirk manages a wee smile. We (the audience) already know why Kirk is miserable…Pike tells Kirk the news, as per the movie.

In this way, we find out their names (*I just made these up on the spot), we may find that the two women are twins who make love as a pair (Caitian tradition), one may work for Starfleet (or not). Bringing one of them into the bar is about continuity. The writers already introduced us to two women who were bedding Jim Kirk. Why not have one or both join him in the bar?

Come on, Bob Orci and co-writers – please show more respect for any lovers Kirk may be involved with next time. This also means that Kirk is given a bit more respect as well and there needs to be a next time.

1006. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

You know what my favorite moment in STID is? The scene where Kirk convinces Marcus that he’s prepping the bodies for transport and then immediately after Marcus disappears from the screen he says sharply “Don’t lower those shields!” or something like that.

That brief moment gave me the chills because it reminded me of…well…KIRK. He had his poker face on and I didn’t know it while he was talking to Marcus, so seeing him change his tone and state of mind so quickly was a revelation of what he was doing…and it worked on me.

That was cool.

1007. Ahmed - November 27, 2013

@999. Keachick

“What I DO AGREE with is that the scene in question was not done as well as it could have been. For a start it needed to be longer and not abruptly cut as it was. ”

You wanted the threesome scene to be LONGER ??

Are you aware that we are talking about a Star Trek movie & not one of David Cronenberg or Pedro Almodóvar movies, right ?

1008. Keachick - November 27, 2013

I had to google who Zapp Brannigan was as I have not watched Futurama in quite some time. I think comparing either Kirk to Zapp Brannigan is rather insulting to either James T Kirk.

Unsympathetic is not quite the right word to describe how I see many relating to these alternate universe characters, especially the younger Jim Kirk, Spock and Uhura. The attitudes of many are somewhat uncharitable. This has occurred also in a similar way as to how people relate to the scene involving Kirk and two Caitian females.

Due to lack of information, so many appear to have gone to a culturally conditioned negative default position which, I think, is quite sad. However, awareness means that one does not have to fall for the negative and often silly default position.

1009. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

I’m not interested in seeing Kirk used to promote whatever else is up next on someone’s sexual revolutionary agenda.

Stick to the recipe. Less Kaveman, more Kirk. Make fun Star Trek movies that have universal relevance.

1010. Keachick - November 27, 2013

Ahmed – I don’t know anything about those other movies nor do I care. I only care about what could work well in Star Trek.

Thank you, Basement Blogger. At least, you agree with some of my ideas…

1011. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#1004 – Sexual revolutionary agenda? Whose would that be – yours, mine or others?

1012. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

1003. Keachick – November 27, 2013

Well you are right. I even said so. I am NOT sympathetic to STID’s James Kirk. It took me a while to realize what was bothering me about STID but it finally hit me, and that’s it. Even though he grew by the end of it, he was less impressive in STID than he was in ST.09 where Earth’s fate was ultimately decided by the choice he alone made, as captain, to attack Nero.

1013. dmduncan - November 27, 2013

1006. Keachick – November 27, 2013

Well if you seriously want to see Kirk in a sympathetically portrayed polyamorist relationship with two catwomen, then it’s yours.

1014. Phil - November 27, 2013

Well, boys and girls, it looks like we know what movie Mr. Orci will be promoting in 2016.

…….Universal announced a slew of release dates today. The recently shaken-up studio has set its reboot of The Mummy for April 22, 2016

1015. Phil - November 27, 2013

Least we forget, ASM2 releases 5/2/2014, ASM3 6/10/2016, and ASM3 5/4/2016. The Van Helsing reboot, and Lock and Key are going to be slotted in there….somewhere.

1016. Phil - November 27, 2013

And Bad Robot, after Infinitely Polar Bear and ongoing TV productions, seems to have cleared it’s calendar for Star Wars productions as far as the eye can see.

It would be interesting to know what Bad Robot told Paramount when they said they could do Trek 13…..

1017. Ahmed - November 27, 2013

@1009. Phil

That is one busy schedule !! No wonder Bob kept talking about scheduling when he was asked about Star Trek 13.

1018. Disinvited - November 27, 2013

#1009. Phil – November 27, 2013

You listed ASM3 twice with 2 2016 dates. Is that some sort of Two-Part story like the last Harry Potter?

1019. Ahmed - November 27, 2013

The Amazing Spider-Man 3 in 2016 & The Amazing Spider-Man 4 in 2018 according to IMDB.

1020. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#1007 – No, not specifically. I have kind of stated as much. I just don’t see why there should be so much negativity if the writers introduce us to possibilities of what kind of relationships might be had if we were to find other humanoids on distant worlds. It is also good that James T Kirk gets the opportunity to experience such…

dmduncan – Sometimes a leader can have occasion of being alone in making a decision that positively shapes the future in a big way, however, that may not always be possible. A leader works with what he has… Kirk was actually in a similar position in STID in that not doing anything would definitely mean being destroyed or of doing something that hopefully will not get everyone killed.

This time he needed to seek help from his enemy, Harrison/Khan but as Khan realized, he and that of his own crew were in no better a position than were Kirk and the Enterprise. It meant Kirk joining forces with an adversary. Kirk still could not trust Khan, which still put him (and the Enterprise) in a precarious position, even after Marcus was stopped. I say that his “gut” in STID constituted that similar leap of faith that propelled Kirk to decide to attack Nero, despite the odds.

Kirk is blessed with a certain grace, which means he needs to understand that he cannot abandon his good nature and humour…I suspect he may have this level of self-awareness, ain’t that right, Bob Orci?

1021. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#982 Marja – Well, STID is rated “M (Violence)” in NZ, which means that no one under 16 years of age could go unaccompanied by an adult (usually parent or guardian) to see this movie at cinemas. The sexual content never even gets a mention, so limited and frivolous it was. So was the first Star Trek 09 movie rated “M” because of the level of violence. I agree with the classifications for both films.

1022. Keachick - November 27, 2013

#1009 – “Least we forget, ASM2 releases 5/2/2014, ASM3 6/10/2016, and ASM3 5/4/2016.”

What are ASM2 and ASM3?

1023. Ahmed - November 27, 2013

@ 1016. Keachick – November 27, 2013

“#1009 – “Least we forget, ASM2 releases 5/2/2014, ASM3 6/10/2016, and ASM3 5/4/2016.”

What are ASM2 and ASM3?”

The Amazing Spider-Man 2 & 3.

1024. Keachick - November 27, 2013

Thank you, Ahmed.

I do wonder if Bob and co. have forgotten about Star Trek and that its 50th Anniversary (8 September 2016) is now less than three years away.

How about a little 2013 (pre) Christmas cheer in this regard from an Orci or other?

1025. Keachick - November 27, 2013

My apologies to dmduncan – I see that you did not refer to the Caitian females as “brainless sex kittens”. Another poster did.

I thought that description was uncharitable given how little information the writers gave about these alien females.

1026. K-7 - November 27, 2013

@999

You find my referring to the F word as rude. Well I think the threesome scene is rude. To me — showing Kirk in that scene is offensive.

You never answered my question. How can you defend a post F’ing threesome scene in STID, but get all upset about people in the media using the F word?

You are totally inconsistent here???

1027. Phil - November 27, 2013

@1016 Amazing Spider-Man 2 & 3

1028. K-7 - November 27, 2013

I didn’t know I was even suppose to get the term “ASM”? Spiderman seems to have run its course now, so I am not sure why they are still trying to make more movies? Saw the last one finally a few months back, and it lacked the scope and gravitas of the Raimi trilogy.

1029. Phil - November 27, 2013

I really should proofread more often…

Least we forget, ASM2 releases 5/2/2014, ASM3 6/10/2016, and ASM4 5/4/2018.

Still a mighty busy schedule….

1030. Garak's Pride - November 27, 2013

I agree with K-7. Seeing Captain Kirk in that post-threesome scene is much more offensive to me than hearing Chris Pine use the f-word in a media interview…much more offensive!

1031. Phil - November 27, 2013

@1022. Well, Amazing Spider-Man made 752MM on a 230MM budget, and all of them have grossed between 750MM to 890MM – sounds like a tentpole to me.

I didn’t see the last one – considering the drop-off in domestic box office, I wasn’t the only one who wasn’t interested.

1032. Garak's Pride - November 27, 2013

#999 / Keachick:

“Sometimes the F-word can be used in the context of sexual expression, but most of the time, it is used in the manner that Marja has described, which is just crude and a derogatory term that also relates, reminds people of human sexual expression in a debased way.”

EXACTLY — like the debased way of nuKirk going on a bender and ending up with two catwomen in his bed. That scene is a great example of when using the f-word to describe what Kirk and those two party girl aliens were doing — in fact, that is a perfect example of when using the f-word to describe “debased party sex” is appropriate.

1033. Phil - November 27, 2013

Given the softness of the STID story, it’s not hard to imagine the writing being a bit of a formula at this side, with a checklist of Trek clichés that somehow need to be included….
Kirk skirt chasing…check
Kirk bedding female…check
Starship battle….check
Snarky Scotty comment…check
Kirk hitting the bottle…check
Spock/Uhura bickering….check
Random undressed female….check
Oblique homage reference…check
Not-so oblique homage reference…check

It’s a sad state of affairs that these Honest Trailers clips seem to have figured this out in fairly short order. Two movies in, and JJ Trek is very, very predictable. How do we know the next one will be more of the same? Well, look at the K/O post-production interviews, they are falling all over themselves congratulating themselves on how brilliant they are. Lindelof, who is out of the picture now, has at least fessed up to some of the mistakes.

1034. K-7 - November 27, 2013

@1026

It’s like nuKirk is thinking in that bed scene:

“Good morning my Godesses…Tiger Blood…..winning…winning…oh shit, why in the F is Pike calling me now.”

LOL

1035. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 27, 2013

K-7, as I said earlier, your comments here and this whole discussion shows what a joke that scene is now in Star Trek history. As a Trek fan, I am embarrassed to have to view and make sense of that scene. That was a completely unnecessary scene, and it’s just plain dumb-ass.

With that scene, Kirk is now being compared (fairly) to Chalie Sheen — that is just horrid.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1028. K-7 – November 27, 2013

@1026

It’s like nuKirk is thinking in that bed scene:

“Good morning my Godesses…Tiger Blood…..winning…winning…oh shit, why in the F is Pike calling me now.”

LOL

1036. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 27, 2013

….and I also completely agree that that scene is MUCH MORE PERSONALLY OFFENSIVE to me than hearing Chris Pine use the F word on some minor media interview.

1037. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 27, 2013

@1029. Phil, yes, unfortunately you have a really good point there.

1038. IDIC Lives, Reincarnated - November 28, 2013

If STID didn’t ruin the real Kirk for me (who Shatner created in TOS), then Keachick will.

“James T Kirk would do thus and so….”
“James T. Kirk is a man who—–” it reminds me of a first time mother bragging that her little boy stood up today. “My little boy is James T. Kirk.”

Truth is, you cannot pigeonhole Kirk and say he will do this or that. Kirk exists in The Now. When someone acts or writes him, he LIVES. To act or write Kirk, you have to become him as you act or write (Shatner showed the way and some fan fiction was awesome), you cannot stand OUTSIDE like a doting mother (whom he would rebel against in 2 seconds), and ANNOUNCE/DICTATE what he does or feels or behaves.

The way Shatner saved or nearly saved some of the bad TOS episodes was with this vibrant, living Kirk. It’s a big part of the reason Star Trek lived on and lives on. Trek also lives because Nimoy IS Spock (same basic reason).

Incidentally, no one will ruin Kirk for me but perhaps when I feel this even knocking at the door, I get angry.

Keachick, I suggest it is better not to outline Kirk like Writing Class 101.

Sadly, I would have the same advice for JJ and company, stop the check list of what Kirk and Spock MUST do to “please” the fans and let them live! Granted, the actors–well– at least there would be a chance.

1039. IDIC Lives, Reincarnated - November 28, 2013

IMO, Kirk enjoys aliens. He is hopelessly curious about them. I think this is his basic motivation for bedding the cat women, apart from being horny. I actually think Carol M. is much too humdrum human for Kirk. His great loves were a brunette futurist of the 1930s, a dark haired Native woman from a culture alien to his, and an android (Rayna). He is attracted the “alien” and “different” (thus his friendship with Spock).

So while he was simply f___ing (not some grand glorious love making because James T. Kirk is just too good a little boy for f—ing),
with the cat women, there probably was some intellectual curiosity there, something a tad above blind scratching the itch.

IMO, TOS Kirk loves The Female and her beauty, but I don’t think he is quite a “womanizer” which is a lower version of finding intrigue in The Female. He chooses to go to bed with some of the most beckoning ones or of course if he can use this (use himself in a very basic way) to save the day.

STID Kirk, alas, lacks the class of his predecessor. Maybe in time….

Incidentally, the way f___ is used, at least in the U.S., it can actually speak to a soulful disappointment or failure. If one uses it too much, it is too generic and boring but if you use it when something really goes wrong or one is disappointed on some deeper level, it is most effective. I don’t know what I’d do without it.

1040. IDIC Lives, Reincarnated - November 28, 2013

Incidentally, I find it ironic that Shatner never got an Emmy for Kirk portrayal. I adore Nimoy’s Spock portrayal and frankly, IMO, neither new actor comes close.

BUT look at any TOS episode: Spock has fewer lines, Kirk is the engine, the heart, the soul of Trek. Kirk is constant. Spock is intermittent. (I tip my hat to De Kelley as well).

Shatner is criticized for dominating other actors but perhaps he was almost literally making Trek shine, making Trek work, giving it energy, keeping it from bogging down, keeping it going.

Granted, he bogged a bit too in third season but some of those episodes are great because he is more loose, disheveled and a bit wild (as in “Day of the Dove” – “Stop the war NOW!” ). By third season, Nimoy was smoother as Spock, comfortable in his skin, but perhaps less gut-wrenching (gut wrenching is a good way).

I digress. I am simply taking a moment on Thanksgiving to be thankful for Shatner’s Kirk. :-) How could such an iconic character have been created and sustained – and no Emmy? Shatner wondered the same – which was only reasonable, not some huge ego (though he no doubt had/has an ego, he is a glorious HUUUUUUMAN).

Perhaps JJ’s refusal to have Shatner in either nu film (obviously they could not see eye to eye but if JJ had WANTED, Shatner would have come along), is a clue to the injustice the nufilms are doing Kirk. STID was Kirk’s film, basically, and— ouch.

At first I thought I loved STID simply because I was a flower in the desert without Trek water. Suddenly, there it was!

However, like some others on this site, as it settles, there is so much wrong. The worst are not the plot holes, it is the Kirk characterization.

1041. crazydaystrom - November 28, 2013

1027. Phil
Given the softness of the STID story, it’s not hard to imagine the writing being a bit of a formula at this side, with a checklist of Trek clichés that somehow need to be included….

Yep, formulae and checklists and cliches! Oh my!! Having received the STID blu-ray for my birthday back in October I’ve seen it a total of six times now. I like it more but only on a ‘popcorn movie’ sort of way. It IS NOT the great Star Trek movie we want, need and, I feel, the franchise deserves. You’re correct Phil. It’s rather ‘paint by numbers’. When you get down to it. Hopefully the money it’s made will allow Star Trek to further evolve eventually.

1042. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 28, 2013

Has the new Trek made it to the movie channels?

1043. TUP - November 28, 2013

Keachick – quite an ego you have. My opinion is my opinion. I dont need to change my opinion because you dont like it.

I began using “lazy” to describe the writing after Bob called me a “lazy viewer”. He was wrong.

I could call him an incompetent writer but I dont think he is incompetent, so I can only assume he and his partners were lazy. They figured no one would care about the little things.

1044. crazydaystrom - November 28, 2013

Re: Kirk’s Threesome
It did not bother me at all for a few reasons-

1) It was such a fleeting scene and was in no way explicit. In fact it was quite the opposite.

2) Gene Roddenberry himself spoke of the the sexual ‘Puritanism’ that frustrated (and practically straight jacketed) him and others in the creative arena in which he worked. He wanted to push that and other envelopes and did as much as he could. A great example of this was the character Ilia and her race The Deltans. Their main distinction as a species was their sexual maturity. Early TNG eps had examples of GR’s feeling in this area as well. So now that I think more about it, it could be said expressions and implications of sexuality are canon! LOL!

3) There was a time in American films when it was considered ‘indecent’ to show a man and a woman in bed together. In fact at one point if a man or woman was in bed a person of the opposite sex couldn’t even sit on that bed unless it was shown at least one foot was on the floor! If not the scene was considered indecent because of implied sexuality!?! On television it had to show that married couples didn’t even sleep in the same beds!?! We’ve matured beyond that.

Kirk’s ‘threesome fun’ scene was tame by almost any measurement. And certainly in my humble O. Threats to family, decency, Mom and apple pie… non-existent there. The mental and emotion purity of our teenagers will remain intact after viewing it. And even younger children, with proper parental guidance.

Now with all that said, I certainly do not wish for Trek to become explicit or overtly sexual. Not at all. I just don’t equate sex with the negative and dirty. But with all due respect I think any who find that scene offensive have a lot in common with those who were once offended by seeing a married couple in bed together on screen. Or seeing a nude body on screen. Or in a museum. Or who found the bikini indecent. Or thought no more of a woman’s leg above the ankle should be seen.

Again, all things considered, that scene was amazingly…laughably…tame. Sure it wasn’t at all necessary but it was a cute trifle and not as worthy of so much concern. Like Carol Marcus’ underwear scene. Which was just stupid IMO.

1045. crazydaystrom - November 28, 2013

Corrections-
‘On television it had to be shown…’

‘…emotional purity of our teenagers…’

‘…not worthy of so much concern…’

1046. dmduncan - November 28, 2013

I think a good test question to ask of your story is if you don’t have 200 million dollars to tell the story, would it still be interesting if the VFX had to be done cheap?

Because with many good Star Trek episodes that is the case. With STID I think the answer is no. Too much of what impresses me in STID is just the bluntness of expensive visuals.

The biggest thing in STID is the Vengeance and the ‘splosions it makes crashing into San Francisco.

Kirk’s death doesn’t feel authentic because there’s no doubt in my mind that it will come to an end before the credits roll, so there’s no time to experience or mourn his loss, and Pike’s death feels like, well, like they called his number at the DMV.

So what happens next? is the big question. Does Kirk having super blood affect things? Does Kirk having died affect things? Does Pike having died affect things? Will Kirk continue to be a parody of his former self? Will the Jane Austenization of Spock continue?

1047. Spock's Bangs - November 28, 2013

Wow, all you Quakers that are offended by a threesome clearly have never had one. My condolences!!

1048. TUP - November 28, 2013

@K7 – Sony doesnt want the Spider-Man rights to revert to Marvel so it sounds like they want to piggyback on Marvel and expand Spider-Man into it’s own huge “Marvel Universe” style universe with spinoffs etc.

1049. crazydaystrom - November 28, 2013

1028. K-7
It’s like nuKirk is thinking in that bed scene:

“Good morning my Godesses…Tiger Blood…..winning…winning…oh shit, why in the F is Pike calling me now.”

LOL

LOL indeed!

1050. dmduncan - November 28, 2013

1036. crazydaystrom – November 28, 2013

2) Gene Roddenberry himself spoke of the the sexual ‘Puritanism’ that frustrated (and practically straight jacketed) him and others in the creative arena in which he worked. He wanted to push that and other envelopes and did as much as he could.

***

Sex made a mess of Gene Roddenberry’s life, so I’m not sure his opinion is a good one to follow. Actually I am sure. It’s not.

1051. dmduncan - November 28, 2013

1039. Spock’s Bangs – November 28, 2013

Wow, all you Quakers that are offended by a threesome clearly have never had one. My condolences!!

***

I have never had one and never will and I would leave the “party” where that were a predictable outcome.

That doesn’t make me a “Quaker,” but it does make me less of a monkey.

My condolences to you as well.

1052. crazydaystrom - November 28, 2013

1037. dmduncan
Kirk’s death doesn’t feel authentic because there’s no doubt in my mind that it will come to an end before the credits roll, so there’s no time to experience or mourn his loss,

Yeah. Seriously, did anyone not familiar with Trek or with film in general not think Kirk would survive the movie? I had no doubt.

<I)and Pike’s death feels like, well, like they called his number at the DMV.

Ha! L.O.L!!

Does Kirk having super blood affect things? Does Kirk having died affect things? Does Pike having died affect things?

No more than having access to SpockPrime’s knowledge did, I suspect.

1038. Spock’s Bangs
Wow, all you Quakers that are offended by a threesome clearly have never had one. My condolences!!

Ha! I guess that explains views on it. :-)

Um…TMI??

1053. crazydaystrom - November 28, 2013

1041. dmduncan
Sex made a mess of Gene Roddenberry’s life…

Hmm. Not arguing here but how so exactly?

1054. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 28, 2013

Just watching the Making of Rocky and they showed that Rocky took #1 in 79.
Just above #2 Kramer vs Kramer and #3 ST-TMP.

Not bad for Trek so long ago in 79.

1055. IDIC Lives, Reincarnated - November 28, 2013

#1034 (TUP) “Keachick – quite an ego you have. My opinion is my opinion. I dont need to change my opinion because you dont like it.”

I agree with you, but one of my posts was removed and others have not been posted. Yet Keachick’s posts fill this thread to overflowing. My posts were/are civil, but if they appear, perhaps the transporter finally got fixed. LOL

1056. dmduncan - November 28, 2013

1044. crazydaystrom – November 28, 2013

By his own admission Spock was the result of Gene Roddenberry’s inability to control his own emotions or the turmoil that resulted in his life from them. His many affairs led to the painful demise of his first marriage, in which he produced a daughter, and to the pain of those who loved him most, including Majel Barrett. He was unfaithful to his first wife with, among others, Majel Barrett, and he gave Majel Barrett the same treatment.

Nichelle Nichols may remember him fondly, but she was one of those he was cheating WITH, not ON.

1057. Red Dead Ryan - November 28, 2013

The Kirk/cat-women pourn scene is even worse than the scenes featuring Uhura’s fern dance and Kirk fighting a three-breasted cat-woman in “The Final Frontier”. And that is saying something, as those scenes are truly awful.

Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel.

As I said earlier, three-somes might work in raunchy rom-coms, but they don’t belong in “Star Trek”.

1058. Red Dead Ryan - November 28, 2013

And unfortunately, I also have to agree with those comparing nuKirk’s behaviour in the pourn scene to that of Charlie Sheen’s.

Hopefully the writers learn from this, and that we don’t see any more of this crap ever again.

1059. Phil - November 28, 2013

Quakers? With a couple of exceptions the objection to the threesome isn’t so much out of an offense to puritan sensibilities, but out of the fact that most people see it for what it is, a throw-away scene to reinforce the cliché of Kirk as a ladies man. It panders to the lowest common denominator, and quality filmmaking should be above that. Either that, or a little candor from the filmmakers that they view Trek as throw away entertainment, in which case we can then accept it for what it is. I don’t feel guilty about enjoying an afternoon with Pacific Rim, Transformers….or STID. However, I do expect more from Trek.

1060. Keachick - November 28, 2013

crazydaystrom – you are about the only poster who makes any sense at all. The inappropriate comments about Gene Roddenberry’s private and what could be a somewhat emotionally messy life is a good reason why the private lives and liaisons should be kept just that, private, and not made public because it is none of anyone else’s business except for those personally involved. A person’s creativity via a public fictional medium should not be judged by the busy bodying, no-nothing, joe-blogg who happens upon private information.

Gene Roddenberry had never been arrested for any crime, sexual or otherwise, so these comments are frankly just smutty gossip. However, given the predominant attitude taken over the scene lasting all of five seconds, I guess I shouldn’t expect any better.

I already explained why celebrities F-bombing in public is more offensive to me than the scene was. Using the F-word so freely, and in almost any and all contexts, cannot help but having a debasing effect on a person’s attitude towards human sexuality in general, because of the word’s obvious associations with the activity.

Kirk’s liaison was NOT a debasement of how sexuality may be expressed. It was not the usual for most people and of course, conformity to current, often repressive and immature understanding and attitudes in all actions, both public and private, must be adhered to even when it comes to how a fictional futuristic world is presented.

However, skull crashing, brutal kickings and beatings, shootings, destruction of cities and people are quite acceptable because they show a certain “realism”, an “edginess”…

Excuse me, I feel another of those headaches coming on…:((

1061. Keachick - November 28, 2013

Excuse the typos

“Hopefully the writers learn from this, and that we don’t see any more of this crap ever again.”

Indeed – like a crazy genetically engineered man stomping on a woman and breaking her leg and then killing her father by crushing his skull with his bare hands or the brutal, repeated punching and kicking of a young man, well, just because…he’s down and I can

I agree – we don’t need to see any of this crap ever again!

1062. dmduncan - November 28, 2013

@1050

Well if it’s private, then why do I know about it? It is the way of things that what you mean to keep hidden becomes known. That ideal universe you wish to “ought” into existence where each person dictatorially controls all information about himself does not, in fact, exist, and one of the reasons is that sometimes the people you do dirty deeds with decide to make what is also THEIR private life involving you into public knowledge.

I’m tired of this noonsense argument that what you do behind closed doors is your business and your business only. If that’s the case then keep it hidden and nobody can comment on it. See how that works out.

If it enters public space, no matter how private you wish it to remain, then it is fair game and if you get unwanted blowback for it you have nobody else to blame.

At that point you can either man-up that you are a Charlie Sheen and take what comes with being that, or continue trying to control the image people have of you as something you are not.

Reality always wins. If you are truly a Buddhist, then you should know that.

1063. dmduncan - November 28, 2013

1050. Phil – November 28, 2013

I would put it more simply in language that I think a FEW out there might understand:

Article 133 of the UCMJ: Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman.

And THAT is basically what characterizes the Kirk in STID from the opening frame…until he sacrifices himself to save the ship.

1064. SkiesSeven - November 28, 2013

No doubt Abrams thought it was ‘cool’ to put his Beastie Boys crap in Star Trek, but all it does is reinforce how tasteless the scene was.

1065. K-7 - November 28, 2013

Re: Spock’s Bangs.

No I’m not a Quaker. Threesomes strike me as twisted though, but it’s a free country, so if you want to keep engaging in this sort of behavior with another guy, and one girl, as you suggested, who am I to stop you…

1066. Phil - November 28, 2013

@1053. Can’t argue that point, Kirks has gone from the Teflon Cadet to the Teflon Captain in the new universe – regardless of the charges, or potential for charges, they just keep sliding off…

1067. Red Shirt Diaries - November 28, 2013

@1066

Great point. If Spock’s Bangs wants to have another dude with him and his girlfriend, sure that makes me uncomfortable, but it’s his life.

LOL

1068. Basement Blogger - November 28, 2013

More Thor and Star Trek.

Watch Thor carefully and you’ll see Alice Krige (Borg Queen) in the new Thor movie. She’s one of the Asgardian “doctors” trying to figure out what’s wrong with Jane Foster. (Natalie Portman)

Benecio Del Toro is in one of the end credit scenes. Okay, let’s go over this Star Trek can’t get him for Khan. But Disney can get him to play the Collector. And Disney also got our director J.J. Abrams.

Sigh. The Force is with Disney or do they have some other power?Green perhaps?

1069. TUP - November 28, 2013

Id love to know why Del Toro in STID fell through.

Also, Keachick needs to take a deep breath and find something else to do for awhile. Sheesh.

1070. Ahmed - November 28, 2013

@ 1059. TUP – November 28, 2013

“Id love to know why Del Toro in STID fell through.”

Actors usually don’t sign up with a movie for couple reasons:

Money
Scheduling conflict with another movie
The script

1071. Red Dead Ryan - November 28, 2013

If Spock’s Bangs wants to have a threesome, that is fine. But it should remain private.

As for the violence in STID, it serves the story, unlike the threesome pourno scene.

If Keachick or anyone else wants to see any more threesomes, they can go to a pourno site.

1072. DiscoSpock - November 28, 2013

Something tells me that Spock’s Bangs already has his order in for the new George Takei fragrance! :-))

1073. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 28, 2013

@1059 “Id love to know why Del Toro in STID fell through.”

Money. That story is documented and is old news.

Of course after the deal fell through, we were fed the horseshit that the reason they cast BC (pasty white British guy) was because of some sort of “terrorist character affirmative action” viewpoint by JJ and Bob. LOL

1074. dmduncan - November 28, 2013

@1063. MJ

Haha. Yeah. That was a Hail Mary. Problem is that whole crop of actors they first looked at looked like people that could’ve passed for the sort of person they had a principled objection against casting.

But it was a hell of an attempt to turn disaster into triumph.

1075. crazydaystrom - November 28, 2013

Uhoh. I’ve got a comment in moderation. Guess I should’ve used pourn.
Damn! It was a masterpiece of prose, too! HAha!
:-(

1076. K-7 - November 28, 2013

Spock’s Bangs,

Happy Thanksgiving to you, your girlfriend, and your boyfriend.

1077. crazydaystrom - November 28, 2013

OT-
Just read on comicbookmovie.com that the first trailer for Christopher Nolan’s Interstellar is going to be attached to the new Hobbit movie next month! I can hardly wait! It and Wally Pfister’s Transcendence are my most anticipated science fiction films of next year! Happy, happy, joy, joy!

1078. MJ (The Original). - November 28, 2013

@1067

2014 is shaping up to to be a big year for hard sf. It’s about time!

1079. crazydaystrom - November 28, 2013

1068. MJ (The Original)
2014 is shaping up to to be a big year for hard sf. It’s about time!

Yes indeed! And with names like Nolan and Depp attached to those projects and after the success of Gravity this year perhaps someone will be inspired to take a stab at a less pow-powy/bang-bangy Trek. TOS eps varied in tone. Why not the films?

1080. Spock's Bangs - November 28, 2013

1066 “Spock’s Bangs,

Happy Thanksgiving to you, your girlfriend, and your boyfriend.”

Who said there were any girls involved? LoL

1081. K-7 - November 28, 2013

@1070

With all of you using the “Eau My” fragrance, right?

1082. Marja - November 28, 2013

996 MJ That is a cringe-worthy Trek scene on the level of Row Your Boat and Uhura’s song scene in Trek V….but at least those scenes has good intentions behind them.
Actually, MJ, I so dislike both of those scenes it’s hard for me to see the good intentions ;-D
========================
999 Keachick, I am curious as to how many other Hollywood movies have shown men having a threesome. Which other films have this “trope”?

Heh, Rose – all you have to do is survive watching a few episodes of Charlie Sheen in “Two and a Half Men” – Hollywood at its worst. But that is a truly tasteless TV show.

Or, you could watch just about any “frat boy” movie. Often the super-smooth character whom many of the frat-boys admire is the guy who gets all the ladies, sometimes two and three at a time.

Personally I’d enjoy seeing an “intimate romantic” scene between Kirk and Carol Marcus, for example, but I’d like it to be those two things. Not just playful “one-nighter” sex – as was portrayed in STiD.

I’d like to see an intimate scene with Spock and Uhura, the established romantically related couple, but nope. At least they’re shown relating in a romantic way. NO NOT JUST FIGHTING

AND NO I DO NOT WANT THE WHOLE MOVIE TO BE A S/U ROMANCE
I just want a brief scene of them together, in their quarters, even if it’s just them jumping out of bed when they hear “Red Alert! All hands to Battle Stations!”

1083. Who cares - November 28, 2013

@K-7. While I liked all three of the Raimi Spider-Man movies I liked Amazing Spider-Man more. The reasons for this are fairly simple, as I have expressed before, I am an avid reader of comics (as well as novels, from classics to sci-fi to detective stories to fantasy to stuff that blends genres like The Dresden Files). Spider-Man has always been one of the ones I like the most, and I have read many hundreds of issues of his various series (also both of the Spider-Man Batman crossovers and so on).

Because of the way comics are written, with companies largely unwilling to make moves like allowing the characters to age or die and so on, the two major companies (DC and Marvel) periodically revise (aka Retcon or Reboot) the characters. This results in many eras of a character being wildly different in tone and style, like Batman during the “Adam West” era compared to the Frank Miller era (I know Adam was not involved in the comics but during the time his show was on the comics were pretty much the same feel).

The Amazing Spider-Man feels to me more like the Todd MacFarlane era of Spider-Man comics, which I prefer (though I don’t like Spawn, also by MacFarlane). I also liked how the movie was able to simply convey one of the most important aspects of Spider-Man, when the sh-t really hits the fan, the people of New York always stand by their hero Spider-Man. While the Raimi movies also had touches of this, like Green Goblin being pelted with stuff by people on the bridge, or the people on the elevated train all silently agreeing to not talk about seeing his face after he saved them from Doc Ock, I think the more personal focus on the construction worker whose son was the first person Spidey actually saved in costume made it resonate more emotionally.

That said I do hope Andrew Garfield can act out his “watching someone die scenes” a little better in the future. Emma Stone is a great Gwen Stacy though, and kudos to the director and writer for not repeating stupid mistakes like the “natural webshooters” or ripping off the Gwen Stacy death scene and doing the whole thing with Mary Jane and having Spider-Man save her (Raimi’s first Spider-Man for those who don’t know the reference).

1084. Marja - November 28, 2013

1050 Keachick, I already explained why celebrities F-bombing in public is more offensive to me than the scene was. Using the F-word so freely, and in almost any and all contexts, cannot help but having a debasing effect on a person’s attitude towards human sexuality in general, because of the word’s obvious associations with the activity.

I kinda thought this was why you disliked it! The f word was usually used in environments in which men or women found themselves unable to have sexual liaisons, and that was all that was on their minds … now it’s used all the time. As in WTF where it used to be what the heck/hell ….

Kirk’s liaison was NOT a debasement of how sexuality may be expressed.

Well, my prob with it was that it was PORTRAYED AS SUCH. It played into the “hyper-masculine ‘way to go, bro!'” trope which is a major reason I disliked it. In other words, it was there to APPEAL to the ‘frat boy types’ who long for such sexual freedom themselves, or look forward to such someday when they’re ‘big boys’ who want “bragging rights.”

So in your eyes, Kea, It was not the usual for most people and of course, conformity to current, often repressive and immature understanding and attitudes in all actions, both public and private, must be adhered to even when it comes to how a fictional futuristic world is presented.

My problem was, it was a fictional futuristic world as presented for the 15-25 male demographic, and was a joke on Kirk’s “ladies’ man” reputation. Yep, that boy done ‘got some tail.’

As you’ve previously said, the scene AS PRESENTED demeaned the women, because we never know more about them than that they were in bed with Kirk. Now if you wrote a Star Trek book with that scene in it, I know you’d start with Kirk meeting the ladies, their talk of many subjects, intellectual and so on, all the stuff I would expect of Kirk-as-I-see-him, open to and curious about aliens to start with, and perhaps even more open to very attractive lady aliens. And there’d be some great stuff about the ladies’ culture and why they operate as duos in sexual liaisons and so on. THAT would not offend me. But b/c theyAbrams economizes on time so much [y’know, so they can show more beatings and stuff] we’ll never see that. It would have been great if Alan Dean Foster could have shown that in the novelization. Ah, well.

1085. Marja - November 28, 2013

1000 dmduncan That brief moment gave me the chills because it reminded me of…well…KIRK. He had his poker face on and I didn’t know it while he was talking to Marcus, so seeing him change his tone and state of mind so quickly was a revelation of what he was doing…and it worked on me.

I saw a lot of Kirk in STiD; Kirk forming into the Kirk we know by Season One of TOS. He’s not there yet, but he’s forming. His acceptance: “I don’t know what I’m supposed to do … I only know what I CAN do” … the scene you have above, the “poker face” – and he appeared so very eager to please Admiral Marcus! – absolutely great … his perception about Khan, said to Scotty “I think we’re helping him” … and definitely the entire Warp Core scene.

1086. Marja - November 28, 2013

1002 Keachick, Unsympathetic is not quite the right word to describe how I see many relating to these alternate universe characters, especially the younger Jim Kirk, Spock and Uhura.

You got that right!

What I’ve objected to in large part is the way the scenes are presented or written in the first place, and two of the more objectionable were related to Kirk, whom JJ or Bob Orci or both see as a bit of a ‘frat boy.’ His young impulsiveness, perhaps? I don’t know.

I see quite a number of people in the boards complaining that young Kirk and Spock and Uhura aren’t the seasoned professionals we see in TOS.

Exactly. They are YOUNGER. They are being tempered in the process of the first two films, Kirk particularly. I am VERY hopeful that we will see 3rd movie Kirk as the urbane, witty, tactically oriented guy we know from Season 1 of TOS. He has graduated from brazenness to acceptance of his limitations, from rash actions to self-sacrifical actions [knowing what would happen for sure instead of throwing the dice and getting lucky], from angry to considering. We saw that in his Bridge scene when he was talking to ADM Marcus. He was surely angry about the situation, but he completely hid it.

1087. Marja - November 28, 2013

1027 Phil, Kirk skirt chasing…check
Kirk bedding female…check
Starship battle….check
Snarky Scotty comment…check
Kirk hitting the bottle…check
Spock/Uhura bickering….check
Random undressed female….check
Oblique homage reference…check
Not-so oblique homage reference…check
Heehee!

And lest we forget, “obligatory Summer Tentpole huge destructive force showering down on/colliding with city” … check

1088. Marja - November 28, 2013

1052 duncan, @1050 Well if it’s private, then why do I know about it? It is the way of things that what you mean to keep hidden becomes known. That ideal universe you wish to “ought” into existence where each person dictatorially controls all information about himself does not, in fact, exist, and one of the reasons is that sometimes the people you do dirty deeds with decide to make what is also THEIR private life involving you into public knowledge.

Well, I hope I don’t derail the discussion into freedom of the press vs. paparazzi, but here goes: In the early ’60s, when President Kennedy was horn-doggin’ it in the White House, this was widely known in journalistic circles, but was not reported. It was not only rather seamy, but was not considered newsworthy. [That, or the media knew Joe Kennedy, the father, would financially kick their asses, I don’t know]

In the mid ’90s, when President Clinton was known to be doing much the same, he was charged with sexual harassment, cases which were usually settled out of court, until the Lewinsky affair, which ATE UP media airtime, because from those days forward, they couldn’t resist gossip. It’s more entertaining to many Americans than actual news is. The real news in that situation was, why did Kenneth Starr waste $4M pursuing the president’s pecadilloes? Oh yeah, b/c he couldn’t find anything in the so-called “Whitewater Scandal,” though he searched mightily.

1089. Marja - November 28, 2013

Bernie, I am SO PEEVED that I missed that very last scene at the end of Thor2’s credits!!!

I saw the one with The Collector, thought how crappy it looked visually in comparison with Thor2, and left the theater. DARN IT

1090. Marja - November 28, 2013

1053 Duncan, Well, as “Conduct Unbecoming” varies from command to command, let’s just say young Kirk would be less fortunate under my command, and very very unfortunate under your command ; )

– Disobeying SF regulations [1] violating Prime Directive [2] lying on a report [3] insulting a fellow officer (Spock, “Pointy”) [4] cross-talking Pike ….

I might tend to be lenient in some of these … after all, TOS Kirk almost always violated the Prime Directive, so I almost consider that a throw-away … :P

1091. Marja - November 28, 2013

1061. Red Dead Ryan As for the violence in STID, it serves the story, unlike the threesome pourno scene.

I actually found the excessive violence [breaking legs, crushing heads, Spock trying to beat Khan to death once Spock had the advantage, Vengeance destroying San Fran] even more upsetting and disgusting than any sex scene. I’m with Gustave Flaubert on that one. Flaubert despised the common tendency in his day for publishers to be just fine if an author depicted acts of violence or cruelty; but let an author portray any sexual act, and suddenly they were immoral!

I have different tastes in sexual acts than Abrams and Charlie Sheen, obviously

I don’t really think the excessiveness of the violence served the story. But apparently this is now necessary for the youthful audience, who are inured to the terrible violence in video gaming.

1092. Marja - November 28, 2013

CORRECTION “Spock trying to beat Khan to death once Spock had the advantage”
Spock trying to beat Khan to death AFTER Spock had the advantage

1093. Marja - November 28, 2013

1069 Daystrom perhaps someone will be inspired to take a stab at a less pow-powy/bang-bangy Trek. TOS eps varied in tone. Why not the films?

[nodding sagely in agreement] From your lips to God’s ear, Daystrom.

I am happy to see that the Depp film is to be released in APRIL. Usually that is the DEADEST month in theatres, I don’t know why. So it’ll be good to see something in that month that has some expectations of success for a change!

1094. Keachick - November 28, 2013

@ Marja –
I look at the five seconds of scene that we got of Kirk with two women and think “who are these women? Obviously alien. Are they a pair perhaps, because that is how their species are? How long have the three of them known one another? etc etc”. Unfortunately those few seconds are all the writers/producers chose to give us, so I don’t get answers that could make their characters more interesting and/or just fun and lovely, even lovable.

It is about see the glass half full as opposed to half empty. Most people have chosen to see the glass half empty or even totally empty and I do not agree with that perspective.

The reality is that what they gave us was that scene, for better or worse. I wrote how I thought it could have been improved in one of my posts above on this thread and I doubt it would have been very hard to do and would not have taken up much more movie time, but at least it would have given audiences a better sense of who these “cat” women were and how the three felt about one another outside the bedroom. This post has been ignored – no surprise really. I am sure that I could come up with something else, but why should I bother?

I have already made my feelings known about what is wrong with that five second scene a number of times, for the attention of the one ST writer who does occasionally visit here, Bob Orci.

From the moment I came to this site, more than three years ago, I wrote how I wanted to see Kirk in a loving, intimate relationship with a woman. I proposed who she could be. I suggested various scenarios about what she did and how Kirk might meet her. Perhaps some might have been a bit naff, but they were certainly more than just about anybody else was offering…

dmduncan – Please do not bring up the fact that I shared my interest in Buddhism here, on this site, as a way of “showing me up”. I do not appreciate it.
Yes, I am aware of the reality that private can often end up not being so private and that can cause people various problems, including shock, embarrassment, shame, anger and disappointment. My point is that we may become aware of some activities engaged in by others that we do not personally approve of, but to constantly remind all and sundry (some of whom may not have known nor needed to know) about the “dirty laundry” thrown on display about someone’s personal dalliances that occurred over 40 years ago is inappropriate and very unkind, especially given that the deceased person in question does have a son who is still alive.

I had always thought that Rod had an older half-brother, then later read that he had no other siblings, and now I have just read that he is supposed to have an older half-sister.

This is just an example of how *facts* relating to a person’s family/private life can often being more in the nature of innuendo, rumour, gossip, stuff of Chinese Whispers. This is just about whether Rod Roddenberry has an older sibling…not really a big deal in this case, I would hope. However, when it comes to other *facts* that so many of you think is your business to comment on, even when it has no effect on you personally whatsoever, is usually inappropriate and cruel.

We may know stuff about others but it is another thing to repeat things…It comes under the definition of “harsh and useless speech”. No one is immune from acting like this at times, but that does not make it OK.

1095. Who cares - November 29, 2013

@Keachick, Gene had two daughters from his first marriage.

Darlene Roddenberry link

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Darleen_Roddenberry

Dawn Roddenberry link

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Dawn_Roddenberry

Also Gene and Majel spoke about his infidelity more than once over the years, and Rod stated in an interview about Trek Nation that he was literally sickened by having to cut a lot of the material about that subject from Trek Nation.

Does any of that change how I feel about Gene? No, no it doesn’t. Does knowing about it help me understand him a little better? Yes, yes it does. As for this concept of “harsh and useless speech”. The truth may be harsh but it is never useless, concealing the truth, for any reason, including “delicate audience sensibilities” is wrong, and always will be.

@Dmduncan. I’m a little young to remember JFK but didn’t he take Marilyn Monroe to a few State functions when their affair was going on? I have also read that Jackie (later Onassis) told Marilyn she was welcome to take Kennedy and move into the White House and become First Lady. I know Joe DiMaggio blamed her death on JFK and his family.

1096. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 29, 2013

@1077 “And lest we forget, “obligatory Summer Tentpole huge destructive force showering down on/colliding with city” … check”

Yea, in fact, you need to take a look at the Captain America – Winter Solider trailer. Not only do they have a similar scene, but the trailer makes the whole movie look like a ripoff about STID. Shield is doing preemptive attacks like Marcus and company, and Captain America doesn’t morally agree with it.

I know its just the trailer, but it looks like Captain America – Winter Solider stole the entire theme and high-level plot from Orci and company.

See for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82RKQPgeYRs

Reactions???

1097. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 29, 2013

@923 “Keachick, I got so sick of your argument style, I stopped commenting entirely about a month ago. I am sure you were happy to see me go but I might have had something to offer…..Learn to be tolerant. You talked a while ago on Buddhism and semi-connected new age thinking. I believe some guru called you “The Light of Wisdom” or similar. Really? I have been a new age writer, fairly well known, for over 30 years and I write science speculation (futurism). You really NEED NOT call me whatever you are going to call me at this point. Gee, thanks!”

Great point!

1098. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 29, 2013

@1086 “From the moment I came to this site, more than three years ago, I wrote how I wanted to see Kirk in a loving, intimate relationship with a woman.”

No thanks. I want to see that about as much as I want to hear more posts about Spock Bang’s multiple partner experiences…which would be NEVER AGAIN.

1099. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

“No thanks. I want to see that about as much as I want to hear more posts about Spock Bang’s multiple partner experiences…which would be NEVER AGAIN.”

I don’t care if I hear or don’t hear about Spock’s Bangs bangs, but I do care that I made 3 intelligent (? well, frick, yes they were), posts yesterday morning and they still are not posted. I know, I know, it was Thanksgiving but I am wondering if and why they were declined, if they were. I don’t even see why they would be held up for consideration.

I’ll try my previous moniker which I have in no way hidden. I dropped it when Keachick pronounced me “malevolent” to make a point which of course she did not or would not “get” anyway.

It would be annoying if a favored one is allowed to babble on (no offense to Keachick or anyone else), and comments of what is at least a different pov than is repeated and repeated and repeated on this site–are censored. Dominance by one person, or a few, does lessen the life-force of the site (if it has one).

1100. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

From Keachick in response to the one post of mine which was posted a few days ago: “I don’t see what is so relevant about the fact that you have been a Star Trek fan for more than 40 years or have been writer of fanfiction or are a professional writer now. Does that give you a sense of superiority that whatever opinions you hold must be of greater worth and relevance than those of others? I am no more argumentative, rude, obnoxious or anything than anybody else has been over time on this site. That is the truth!”

No, Keachick, my opinions are not of greater worth than anyone else’s, but TUP, me, and just about everyone else has a right to state our opinions and still receive polite respect from you. We have worth! You always try to wipe out the WORTH of the other commenter. This is infuriating and wrong.

Yes, Keachick, you are more argumentative, rude, and obnoxious than anyone else on this site at present. What you can’t seem to realize is that you set yourself up for these headache-giving affairs. You first come up with a different opinion, which is fine. Then someone offers another opinion, which also should be fine – and often that opinion is more in harmony with the canon behavior and personality of the characters, but be that as it may,
–you then call the opinion by the other person some adjective which means rude and stupid and degrades their personal worth. They respond, flabbergasted.

Finally, the next level arises wherein you get all riled up and usually get a headache, as if the other person caused it. You are stuck in a bad syndrome.

Our debate which turned into an argument was about “our Jim” going with Carol to help raise David “a while” on a research station.” You KNOW you remember that argument, I believe you tell a frickin fib when you say you cannot remember that debate. If you have forgotten it, maybe you have been involved in so many nasty arguments on the site, they all blend together for you.

Anyhow, I disagreed with that bright idea of yours and by the end of it all, you cried that I am “malevolent” and apparently in line right behind Hitler, Col. Green, and Behelzabub, according to you. At that point, I left the site but then again, why should you chase me away? Do you hope to just have the site to yourself so you can post all your bright ideas for YOUR version of Kirk? –which is very flawed IMO.

As to your interest in Buddhism, my suggestion is if you don’t want it referred to here, you should not have discussed it on this Internet site. One can’t help but point out that your approach on this site is 180 degrees to that of Buddhist philosophy.

Two of my posts yesterday, which have not been posted, had nothing to do with you, they were about how I see Kirk, including a small “tribute” to Shatner. I really do not see why they have been declined. Well, maybe today they will show up. My other “IDIC Lives, Reincarnated!” comment (which Keachick quoted) was posted, so apparently, “IDIC Lives, Reincarnated” was deemed a proper address by this site (which it is).

1101. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

By the way, I find the terms “potty mouth” and “F bomb” which Keachick uses abundantly, much more offensive than a good old “F !!” – said from the soul when something goes wrong.

“Potty mouth” and “F bomb” are from a pov which Gene Roddenberry hated – the closed, judgmental moral majority.

“F” is no bomb. “Potty mouth” is an juvenile insult to children and civilized behavior.

1102. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

There were two Roddenberry daughters from the first marriage. Not sure what happened to one but she is seldom mentioned.

1103. Marja - November 29, 2013

1090 IDIC Lives! I’m not sure you are aware of them, but there’ve been a few posters here who are far worse than Keachick with their language TO one another.

They don’t just “get a headache,” they say “how stupid can you get?” “you’re an idiot” “you must be on/ get off the drugs” and things like that. Thus begin the judgement wars. And the two participants must “defend” themselves. And insult the other. Who has to “defend” himself. Then other folks jump on the bandwagon. Ad Nauseum.

Keachick can be quite annoying, but often has interesting things to say. I have seen her use insulting language, but she’s a piker compared with some folks I’ve seen on here. The late but not lamented Mr. Bradley, for one.

Some battles go on much too long, and from my observations, it’s because one person insults another, patronizes them, or does other things to get one’s hackles up.

1104. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

Marja,
Maybe I am annoyed with Keachick because there is content and there is thought in her posts, not a Wm Bradley-like insult contest. I am not up on details re these shouting, insult contests but skimmed them briefly so I do know what of you speak, generally.

IOW, I want to get through to her because her comments do have thought and potential. I would not bother with just a Bradley-like shouting contest.

In one of my posts which was apparently declined (or is still to be posted?), or maybe it was in the one which did get posted (#923), I said to her that I too have always been a Kirk fan and it is frustrating that we should have this in common, but–

I have given Keachick leeway like this to say something like, “I’m glad you are a Kirk person also, but–”

I gave her leeway in the big argument on “Carol n David n Jim,” just so she would say something open/nice as a step toward both of us dropping it. She ignores all efforts at easing the argument.

I am moderator on a large UFO investigation site and I know how to discuss things (I admit, Keachick makes me see red more than I usually do). On that site, I have the power to disapprove, approve, negate comments and seldom do I lose my cool.

Which brings me back to the subject at hand: I guess I lose my cool with her because there is potential there because she does not just instigate insult contests like Bradley and the others.

If only—
And I admit, I am most sensitive to “Kirk” and it would be that this is her field of “expertise.” If only she were an “expert” on Spock, I’d probably let it go. (Damn, that Star Trek gets into a person’s soul!)

If only—
She could dial it back and just not insult the other person’s basic worth. I am a lot of things but I am not stupid nor malevolent, nor were my debate comments. When first I began debating her, I assumed we’d stick to the subject at hand, not personal insults. I presented logical points and she grew immediately very upset emotionally, personally.

If only she could see this syndrome, she would be happy, I think, to find her comments better accepted.

Just a comment on Kirk here: I have known other Kirk folk who feel that “emotion” is how you react, right off the top of your head, because, well, Capt. Kirk is that way too. NO HE IS NOT.

Kirk is almost as logical as Spock, which might be why they are such friends. He does use intuition professionally but even that is thought-out intuition, if there is such a thing–but it does not come right out the top of his head in a massive spewing of emotion. Sure, he is seemingly more emotional than Spock on a personal basis (although how could one be more emotional than Spock in the JJ universe??), but saying what flies out of one’s head without any consideration or logic applied, is not, IMO, how Kirk functions.

1105. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

Marja,
I also feel that Keachick needs to be told I am not of the Wm. Bradley ilk
a lot more than I need to be told that she is not of the Bradley ilk. I mean no offense to you in this.

1106. Marja - November 29, 2013

1094 IDICLives, IOW, I want to get through to her because her comments do have thought and potential.

I can see your desire to do that as commendable … and yet. Many people on this board have diametrically opposing views. So “getting through” to someone in order to make them see things our way might not be possible. At times I have to shrug and say to myself, “forget it.” I’ve had to do that a-plenty, I’ve been patronized a-plenty for some of my views, but I’m still here. I like to debate, if it can be polite, but last February during the LOOK UNDIES! debates I got a bit heated about some remarks.

I have strong views on AU Kirk, Spock, Uhura, McCoy, and Scott …. but these views do NOT always or even OFTEN coincide with others’ views. I’ve been a ST fan for over 40 years myself, but have found myself quite open to change from my first exposure to the AU. I was personally delighted with the union of Spock and Uhura. I was not so well-pleased by the screenwriters’ portrayal of Kirk, but thanks to Pine, could see fierce intelligence behind the “frat boy” behavior. So, to your point, I think this Kirk, while a genius in school, is not yet a genius at letting intellect rule over passion. I think he is getting there, if the scene when he deals with ADM Marcus is any indication [the one on the Bridge in which it appears Kirk is going along with Marcus, but has another agenda in mind, bringing Khan to justice rather than outright killing him].

I see this AU Kirk “growing into” the boots of TOS Season One Kirk. The very best Kirk, written and acted, and lord, I wish that could have happened for all three seasons of TOS. After First season there were marvelous eps, like “Amok Time,” “Doomsday Machine,” and “Ultimate Computer” and “Tholian Web,” and Kirk’s inspired invention of “Fizzbin” in “A Piece of the Action” is pure comedic genius, but for the most part he became a caricature after the first half of Second season. “The Devolution of Kirk in TOS” might be a fascinating article ….

In the AU, Spock has changed substantially but his life circumstances have changed drastically from Spock’s in TOS. Starfleet has changed over the 25-6 years since Nero’s initial incursion into that universe. And I’ll give him a huge pass based on my readings re: PTSD, and the deeper Vulcan emotions, and the loss of so many of his race whom I feel [in my fanfiction-ish way] were part of a vast telepathic “net” which supported all Vulcans in reining in their emotions.

I think Spock did pretty well at reining in his emotions until the Warp Core scene and the Abrams- or Lindelof- inspired “KHAAANNN” scream, followed by mayhem. I could have gone with Spock trying to CAPTURE Khan and bring him to justice, but I could not quite countenance his trying to KILL him until Khan had Spock in the Khan death-grip. At that point, to me, it was okay if the gloves came off. BUT. Once Uhura stunned Khan to the point where he could have been taken up to the ship, I really really hated that the filmmakers had Spock keep beating on him. That was SO beyond the pale.

Some see the Spock/Uhura relationship the same way – beyond the pale, but not I. I’ve debated it with many, and have had to agree to disagree many times. I think it’s one of the best things about NuTrek – the lonely nerd gets the girl, and is able to keep a stable relationship with her – but I don’t think it’s always been well executed, especially the “shuttle scene” in STiD, the infamous scene, lord help us. How much better that would have gone down if Spock and Uhura had been written having that talk in private. But Uhura would still be, to many, a “bitch” because “all she can do” is “fight with her boyfriend.” I don’t see it that way AT ALL and probably won’t succeed in convincing others that they should change their opinions on this.

It matters a lot to me that Uhura not be seen as (a) a grabber of scenes in which McCoy, not she, could be featured (b) unprofessional because all she thinks of is her boyfriend, &c. &c. To (a) – for months – I’ve said that McCoy belongs up front TOO, that the old-time Trio could become a Quartet. Why? because this is the 21st century and it’s time a woman was up in front. But not in front OF McCoy, up front along with him! The portrayal of Uhura is problematic because the filmmakers made it so she was the emotional focal point in several scenes. Saldana cries so beautifully after all. She is marvelous at expressing emotions with her eyes and mouth. And because the guys all have to be strong, acting and doing things, she gets to be the one REacting much of the time. I loved that she went on the mission to “speak Klingon” – spoke it – nearly got killed – and at the first moment the Klingon was distracted, took his knife and stabbed him with it. That was action-hero stuff, and I ate it up.

Even McCoy changed [if you take the comics’ events into account at all] … in the AU he never had a daughter! To me, as an old-time fan who read reams of old-time fanfic, taking Joanna out of the equation — well! Hmph! And from a Georgian, apparently he’s morphed into a Mississippian! But at least, he’s still a loveable curmudgeon with a heart of compassion. Even if he does weird blood tests on tribbles.

I am not sure why my initial response to your post has been an essay, but sometimes I can’t help myself … I think your last paragraph is what inspired it. I imagine there are some things you may disagree with, but I welcome spirited debate, as long as it’s not mean-spirited [this is not directed at you personally].

1107. Marja - November 29, 2013

Re your 1095, I think the use of the word “malevolent” was misguided indeed.

Passions often lead us to use volatile words, and Keachick is passionate about things. Many of us are, to our detriment in debate.

I think each of you would make fascinating sci-fi writers, for different reasons.

1108. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

Marja, “Passion” is no excuse for rudeness, especially when this passion is on small details/opinions online of STID and other similar topics, not on basic things like the equality of the law for all people, peace on Earth, the need for justice and the rights of animals.

I would not “make” a science fiction writer, I AM a science fiction writer – or to be more accurate, science speculation and theory. Just to be accurate–

Not angry at you but–I do not see even-ing out Keachick and me out to a cookie cutter pattern of “Oh, those two are so passionate.” That’s an excuse and it breeds mediocrity; it is actually the main reason I left the site before. Crazydaystrom and you seemed to want “peace at all costs.” Tis not my way (and I do not refer to nuclear war but rather, intelligent discussion).

To each her opinion, I don’t think that Keachick actually groks science fiction but she might write a novel. Probably be a best seller too, go figure.

1109. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

Malevolent “misguided?” No, just mean and stupid. You make too many excuses, Marja.

1110. TUP - November 29, 2013

@1060 Regarding Del Toro, if I recall, he fell through so close to beginning of principle shooting that it seemed odd. Perhaps he didnt like the role, but surely he’d know that by then.

Or did the writers/producers decide to go in a different direction? Casting Del Toro would ramp up the Khan rumours big time. Casting a pasty Brit gives them some wiggle room.

As for all the argument, Ill just say this…we all have opinions. My issue with Keachick is she puts a whole lot of value on her opinion and a whole lot less on everyone else. I’ve many times acknowledged someone else made a great point in a “debate” with me.

And Ill even do it now…Keachick said, in regards to the threesome scene, maybe that species are a pair. Thats a great point. We just dont know.

That scene didnt really bother me (other than the child-like way the girls spoke – I guess I hoped Kirk would be attracted to intelligence and class over “young and hot”, then again I am judging the girls on one bit od dialogue). But when you look at the totality of how Kirk is portrayed, that scene is a micocosm of that. Kirk being portrayed as “a stack of book with legs”, the master tactician, fiercly focused, natural leader…*and* has a quick threeway with a couple of babes, we could sort of laugh it off. But the bumbling, dumb, carefree Kirk? That scene is just another example of the Kirk we didnt want to see.

1111. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

TUP, I do agree with you on Kirk. The more I see STID, the treatment of Kirk’s character is what I really dislike. At first, I was just happy to see Trek again but the more I see STID–ouch! I do not see nuKirk beginning to turn into Kirk at all. And I am not sure Pine can do it either, but of course the script is the first thing.

Re Keachick, I was trying to say that too. The worth of the other commenter and his/her comments is just non-existent to her. Is that “passion?” Or self-engrossment, ego, or lack thereof? Who knows, who cares–which is why I gave up on the site. I’m trying to hang in there simply because I love Trek and enjoy exchanging ideas.

1112. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

The 2 cats in bed scene didn’t bother me either (hell, I sleep with more than 2 cats), but I don’t think we can extrapolate that Kirk really bid them a fond farewell, met them later in the bar where they comforted him, and they were 3 intellectual friends as well. Is that potential science fiction writing or just fantasizing the scene YOU want out of a Trek scene?

One could extrapolate just as easily that Kirk said, “Now get your tails outa here!” or whatever.

In a comment that was never posted, I went into how Kirk loves The Female and her beauty, a step above womanizing of which he is often accused. He also is curious about aliens and loves to seek them out. The 2 cats probably peaked his intellectual curiosity as well as satisfying horniness. At least, that’s what TOS Kirk would think, I believe.

Carol M. is too much of humdrum human for Kirk, IMO. He likes “exotic.” His great loves were a brunette futurist from the 1930s, a Native brunette from an alien culture (originally American Natives), and an android (Rayna). However, he did not “womanize,” he LOVED those few. Of course, if the ship is in danger, he will sacrifice himself :-) and sleep with a female to save the day.

“Walking stack of books,” “Spinoza” —
STID is WAY OFF TRACK regarding Kirk!

1113. Curious Cadet - November 29, 2013

@1102. IDIC Lives!,
“One could extrapolate just as easily that Kirk said, “Now get your tails outa here!” or whatever.”

What bothered me upon repeat viewings is that the pair are talking to him, yet he doesn’t reply, nor acknowledge their existence in any way.

That tells us all we need to know about this Kirk no matter how many seconds of the scene we are given. It’s like a scene with Don Draper straight out of MadMen.

Yeah, he’s focused on trying to answer the phone, but most of us have been in a similar situation, and you know what; if the person we are with is important to us, we acknowledge them — “hang on a minute honey, I’m expecting an important call, sorry”. And it’s not for lack of time on screen, it’s a choice — Kirk owes these women nothing, and they mean so little to him, he does not even need to respond.

1114. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1103. Curious Cadet

Pine’s Kirk was added later via green screen technology.

Word is that Reese has it in her contract prohibiting scandalous relations with any co-stars. It was a rider added after Chris joined the production on “This Means War.”

1115. TUP - November 29, 2013

Thats a great point. The writers specifically show us that Kirk cares nothing about these women. Remember there was a scene (or proposed scene) in 09 showing Kirk seducing the green skinned woman to use her to program the KM test. Thats another example of how these writers think of Kirk and how they think of women.

And that becomes more apparent with the Carol Marcus underwear scene. That scene in and of itself didnt bother me. But taking all the evidence together, it’s hard to respect the portrayal of women. Look at Uhura, she’s the “strong woman” in the movie and yet she’s emotional, nagging, “bitchy” and lets her feelings get in the way of her duty.

Again, this is why I wish they went a different direction and had cast a strong “Number One” for Pike.

1116. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

Curious Cadet and TUP, I agree!

By contrast, look at the real Kirk: Well, the list is endless but just a few:
Ariel Shaw in “Court Martial.” They had an actual love affair. Kirk has a tenderness and warmth toward her I have never seen in nuKirk.

Marlena of “Mirror, Mirror” – “You can be anything you want to be!” their attraction was passionate and natural, man to woman. Not the Beastie Boys and “Oh, Jimmy, come back to bed.”

I am not listing the real loves of Kirk’s life here and actually I have other work to do, but if you will go through TOS in your head, you won’t find a scene with the suggestion of what the nufilms have done to Kirk regarding women.

In “Wolf in the Fold,” Kirk and McCoy “know a little place” through the fog. That is probably the biggest hint there is in TOS that a sailor might go to a brothel, but otoh, it was probably another café.

So since I won’t make an entire TOS compilation to prove my point, I’ll close with this: TWOK did not tell us how close Carol and Kirk had been. Obviously it was a love affair OR the pregnancy was something she planned because, frankly, she was too smart to just get pregnant. She was a brilliant scientist, apparently – did she simply want a baby? That would add to his bitterness about staying away from David, a child he never dreamed would happen (perhaps) but which she planned (?). I don’t aim to extrapolate, I’m just saying, Carol was no party girl. He obviously was still in Star Fleet when the affair happened (was captain?) so maybe she simply wanted a child as many women do today, to raise herself.

So even Carol with his child does not mean TOS Kirk was a womanizer. He was not. He has a grace, tenderness, and gentleness toward women, including Uhura and his staff, yeomen, etc.

Oh yeah, Janice Rand– “Captain, look at my legs!” I’m not sure they ever were supposed to have consummated it. I think she was transferred, yes? Last I knew, he was sadly looking at her, “no beach to walk on…”

Not exactly the STID stud (cough cough).No, not at all.

1117. dmduncan - November 29, 2013

1080. Marja – November 28, 2013

1053 Duncan, Well, as “Conduct Unbecoming” varies from command to command, let’s just say young Kirk would be less fortunate under my command, and very very unfortunate under your command ; )

***

Not unfortunate at all since high standards are goods not evils. If you can’t maintain high standards as a starship captain then you shouldn’t be doing the job. A starship captain who acts like a 19 year old squad leader is hardly a good thing. This Kirk is a fraction of the man Ender Wiggin is.

He even trivializes his violation of the prime directive (what is it he says? “Yeah, what’s the big deal?”), which is something TOS Kirk never did.

Kirk may have violated that evolving piece of imaginary law on occasion, but he always provided arguments for doing so which took it seriously.

1118. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1105. TUP

TUP, I recall a young Shatner/Kirk punching a women across the jaw to get “what he wanted.”

But wait! What is an outlandish claim with more video evidence to prove it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0vfDHK7vsU

But that was just a punch. Hell, Kirk and Spock have even conspired to kill an innocent lover to get what they want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IONvrhIXX4

Video don’t lie. You all should consider it carefully.

1119. dmduncan - November 29, 2013

1079. Marja – November 28, 2013

The real news in that situation was, why did Kenneth Starr waste $4M pursuing the president’s pecadilloes? Oh yeah, b/c he couldn’t find anything in the so-called “Whitewater Scandal,” though he searched mightily.

***

I’m making a general point about how the world really works. If anyone is truly outraged that secrets become known in a world that consists of people you have relationships with who are as real as you and who may decide to do things you don’t like, then that person is foolish.

Mind your own damned appetites instead of blaming others for telling their stories where theirs intersects with yours.

See, it’s ALL real news. At the time I was pissed at what the Republicans were doing to Clinton, but Clinton was ALSO proven to be a man whose sexual choices made him weak and vulnerable, so like it or not they did a service to voters who actually use FACTS to calculate decisions by getting the truth out about the man.

If anyone wants to seriously discuss how democracy gets eroded, let’s talk about how people are manipulated by the lies of those they elect, and how the media is complicit in helping them to lie and get elected on the basis of false imagery.

1120. Basement Blogger - November 29, 2013

@ 1079

Marja,

Yeah, I always stay through the credits of any movie. I figure all these people brought me this entertainment and I should show my gratitude by watching them. But at the end of Thor’s end credits is this really sweet and romantic scene. It should have been in the main movie. It’s the fear of the fear of the pre-teenage boys.

1121. Who cares - November 29, 2013

@1086/MJ. Sorry man but the story for Winter Soldier is not a rip off of STID. The story is based entirely in the original comics storyline where Marvel resurrected Bucky (Sebastian Stan in the first Captain America) as Winter Soldier, which was in 2005-2006, just before Marvel did their “Civil War” storyline. The conclusion of Civil War was the death of Captain America, and he was replaced by James “Bucky” Barnes as Cap had broken the brainwashing that turned him into Winter Soldier.

I do wonder how Cap is going to break the brainwashing of Winter Soldier in the movie, in the comics he used the Cosmic Cube, but they sent that to Asgard at the end of the Avengers, so that option is out.

1122. dmduncan - November 29, 2013

1085. Keachick – November 28, 2013

“dmduncan – Please do not bring up the fact that I shared my interest in Buddhism here, on this site, as a way of “showing me up”. I do not appreciate it.”

If you don’t want me or anyone else to mention things which you advertise about yourself, then don’t mention them. I don’t believe there was ever a Trekmovie thread where your interest in Buddhism was crucial to mention, but you mentioned it anyway, and what you mention is fair to bring up in situations where you begin to act contrarily to what you say suggests you believe.

I too know what the Noble Eightfold Path is.

“Yes, I am aware of the reality that private can often end up not being so private and that can cause people various problems, including shock, embarrassment, shame, anger and disappointment. My point is that we may become aware of some activities engaged in by others that we do not personally approve of, but to constantly remind all and sundry (some of whom may not have known nor needed to know) about the “dirty laundry” thrown on display about someone’s personal dalliances that occurred over 40 years ago is inappropriate and very unkind, especially given that the deceased person in question does have a son who is still alive.”

You have false images of people, Keachick. You really think Eugene Roddenberry doesn’t know about his father’s history? He handles it far better than you do, in fact, and even made a documentary about his uncomfortable relationship to his father where his questions to his own mother made her very uncomfortable…and very taciturn.

1123. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

#1108 – this only deserves a brief statement:

In “Gamesters of Triskellion,” Kirk was trying to free himself and 2 of his crew from slavery which soon would have led to their deaths. So he carefully punched Shawna. You have got to be kidding!

In “City on the Edge of Forever,” Edith’s death is the natural course of time. McCoy interfered with the natural flow. The natural course had to be followed or millions, possibly eventually billions, would have died.

Surely, Shirley, you are pulling our collective leg?

1124. dmduncan - November 29, 2013

1086. Who cares – November 29, 2013

@Dmduncan. I’m a little young to remember JFK but didn’t he take Marilyn Monroe to a few State functions when their affair was going on?

***

JFK was killed before I was born…so I’m also a little too young to remember him, but that’s what they make books for!

I think so, is the answer. Jackie knew of his dalliances. She appears to have adopted the attitude that regardless of what he does, SHE is the ONE he comes home to.

1125. dmduncan - November 29, 2013

But I don’t think they were “state” functions.

1126. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

Just pointing at the many shades of grey in Kirk’s decisions and motivations.

And No, I was not kidding. I really don’t think that Kirk should have permitted Edith die like that. Perhaps the better decision would have been to simply take her back with themselves to the future.

That would have really made Kirk appear much wiser. And hey. Imagine some of those early guest stars appearing regularly on the show. Surely a an intelligent and beautiful visionionary from the 1930s would make for one of the most interesting Star Fleet cadets ever.

Almost as good as Carol Marcus.

1127. Keachick - November 29, 2013

Wow and thank you again, Marja…sorry that I seem to have been such a pain to some people here.

No, I am quite certain that Eugene Roddenberry is well aware of his father’s personal and public history and that of his mother’s as well. However, it is one thing for something to be knowledge within the public arena and quite another for people using anonymous pseudonyms constantly bringing up and displaying family members’ “dirty laundry” in order to try to prove some dubious point.

This is not about concealment of truth. It is about how you deal with that knowledge, given that there are people who might/can be directed affected by the constant reminders that really have nothing to do with anyone but can leave a bad taste.

I guess this also goes for whatever information is given by an individual about themselves or becomes known about in some other way. The comments made on this thread about a deceased Gene Roddenberry private life do constitute “harsh and useless speech”.

1128. TUP - November 29, 2013

Those examples prove the point. Kirk was always about duty above everything which is the crux of his relationship with Carol. We can assume that relationship was very serious from Bones reaction in WoK and Kirk’s reaction to Bones’ remarks.

The fact he left Edith die and was clearly anguished shows that he actually cared about her.

I once put forth a theory on here that Kirk actually falls in love with all these women. Part of what makes him who he is is his incredible depth of emotion. What he sees in the women is an escape from reality because he knows deep down he can never have the happy family life. So whenever he meets someone, he falls in love with them so quicly, chasing that fantasy, the question “could this be the one…” but ofcourse none of them are because his “one true best destiny” is Starship Captain.

Its also why he was able to “abandon” David. Hardly the actions of a heroic leader. But he “did as you (Carol) wanted, stayed away”. Carol’s response is telling. If Kirk had been in their lives, David would have been following his father “all over the galaxy”. There was no option for a home life. Kirk’s home was on a ship. And Carol establishes that begins in the Academy where they met.

I think the writers (at least one of whom is a confessed Trekie) just dont “get” the depth of Star Trek. They see the “womanizing” Kirk and write him as such. They extrapolate that a 35 year old “cowboy” would be a 25 year old reckless bumbler. They just dont get it.

1129. Keachick - November 29, 2013

#1117 – It seems that you do not understand the episode “City on the Edge of Forever”. That was the point. Kirk could not take Edith back to the Enterprise, thereby saving her, because the Enterprise no longer existed. Had Edith been allowed to live, her later actions would have changed the course of history which meant that the universe, Starfleet, the Enterprise, even themselves perhaps would not exist. The small contingent, who beamed down to the planet, were somehow protected in some way by the Guardian of Forever’s *power*, but when they tried to contact the Enterprise, it was no longer there…

The reasons for this were explained by the Guardian in the episode. This is why Kirk had to stop McCoy from saving Edith’s life, as McCoy had done earlier when he had leaped through the portal. One of many sad moments that the TOS Kirk ended up experiencing.

1130. Who cares - November 29, 2013

@Dmduncan. I did some more reading and looking stuff up, the “State Function” I was thinking of was when Marilyn did her sexed up “Happy Birthday Mr. President” song, which was at a 1962 Democratic Fundraiser. According to JFK’s Secret Service detail he had so many prostitutes in and out of the White House that they were concerned about foreign intelligence agents using that for a cover to get close to him, and making him vulnerable to espionage and blackmail as the US and USSR teetered on the brink of nuclear war.

1131. Keachick - November 29, 2013

IDIC Lives refers to me as a liar. I am not. For whatever reason, I simply cannot properly recall what the issue was that was being discussed. Much has gone on since…IDIC also accuses Marja of making excuses. Marja does not need to excuse anyone or anything, unless she may feel a valid reason to do so.

1132. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

A promising explanation, Keachick, until you consider Kirk had recently taken the whole crew and ship back to the 60s a few episodes earlier in “Tomorrow Is Yesterday.” Even in that episode it was Spock that said that Time Travel is now possible. Perhaps that may have been Kirk’s intentions until Spock erased that memory from his Captain’s memory. Another bad example of the respect Spock had for Kirk, IMO.

Respectfully, was it really OK to kiss a girl who had just fallen for you, but not trust her with your true intentions to escape that prison. OK in the 60s, but does it hold up today?

Kirk could be blunt and crass at times, but his actions always seemed to be justified by the moments crisis. Just what was the crisis in STiD?

1133. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1120. Who cares

Lies, WC. Just lies and publicity seeking.

1134. Who cares - November 29, 2013

@Keachick. You really need to look up the concept of Freedom of Speech. You should also work on your reading comprehension, or did you just skip past the part where I mentioned that Rod spoke about his father’s infidelity in INTERVIEWS, Gene, Majel, and Rod all made public statements about it, that means it is no longer a private subject. Rod’s staements about the subject show that he is not negatively affected by commentary on the subject, rather concealing it is a problem for him. Read the sentence above Rod stated in an interview with the Huffington Post about Trek Nation that he was LITERALLY sickened by having to cut material about his father’s affairs from trek Nation. Sicked because he had to take it out, not because it got left in, the problem for him was concealing the truth. Since only Rod, Dawn, and Darlene Roddenberry can be in any way affected by information about their father’s affairs, which they knew about anyway, how can anyone commenting on historical fact possibly hurt them?

You really need to get the point that the entire world does not share, or want to share, your opinions on any given subject, especially when you have proven time and again right here on Trekmovie that you can’t be bothered to do the most basic research about any subject, I can easily give examples of this behavior from you, but everyone else knows what I am talking about anyway so why bother.

1135. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

1121 Keachick, STOP MISQUOTING ME.

Here is what I said, “You KNOW you remember that argument, I believe you tell a frickin fib when you say you cannot remember that debate. If you have forgotten it, maybe you have been involved in so many nasty arguments on the site, they all blend together for you.”

So, Keachick, it must all blend together for you.

1136. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

#1118 TUP
I agree again. I would only say, perhaps McCoy knew it was a sore point with Kirk because Carol did plan to have a baby but did not ask or include Kirk in her plan. He would have good sperm genetically, I would think. This fits as well. I am therefore not sure that Carol was one of the main loves of his life. But–which it is–is not answered in canon.

1137. dmduncan - November 29, 2013

1117. Keachick – November 29, 2013

No, I am quite certain that Eugene Roddenberry is well aware of his father’s personal and public history and that of his mother’s as well. However, it is one thing for something to be knowledge within the public arena and quite another for people using anonymous pseudonyms constantly bringing up and displaying family members’ “dirty laundry” in order to try to prove some dubious point.

***

Well perhaps you and I value the importance of feedback and factual information differently. Every time you go on one of those tears against “dirty laundry” I get a funny image of Queen Victoria blushing and angrily slamming her teacup down in outrage at something scandalous she just heard.

People are what they are and do what they do. The greater shame is trying to hide from what you are to perpetuate false images of what you are not. You rob your self of any slim opportunity for growth you may have by doing that.

So long as people trade false images in their dealings, they create feedback loops which increase in dangerousness with the “importance” and power of the people doing the trades.

So I have no idea what “dubious point’ you think someone here is making.

1138. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

#1122:

It’s a f!! miracle, Cap’n!” said in my best Scotty accent. I agree with keachick!

How can the Enterprise go back in time when it doesn’t exist anymore????

Spock had bad respect for Kirk??????????????? Are you saying Spock tackled Kirk on their 1930s bed (oh, sorry, I slipped into K/S)–tackled Kirk on the bed and erased “Edith”?? Huh?

“Prison?” You mean, they should not have escaped Triskellion if Kirk had to pop Shawna on the old chin?

I think your Saurian Brandy is half gone.

1139. dmduncan - November 29, 2013

1119. TUP – November 29, 2013

I once put forth a theory on here that Kirk actually falls in love with all these women. Part of what makes him who he is is his incredible depth of emotion. What he sees in the women is an escape from reality because he knows deep down he can never have the happy family life. So whenever he meets someone, he falls in love with them so quicly, chasing that fantasy, the question “could this be the one…” but ofcourse none of them are because his “one true best destiny” is Starship Captain.

***

I think that’s a pretty good reading of Kirk, and it’s certainly more flattering than what we’ve been given in STID.

In The Gamesters of Triskelion (one of my LEAST favorite episodes), Kirk really cares for Shahna. She’s not one of the cat women. Same is true of Vanna, from The Cloud Minders. Elaan of Troy uses her special tears to get him to fall in love with her, but Kirk proves almost as strong willed against the magical allure of Mudd’s women as Mr. Spock.

And again in both Requiem for Methuselah and Conscience of the King we see Kirk fall for Rayna and Lenore respectively.

1140. Phil - November 29, 2013

Does anyone remember when this thread was about the potential budget for Trek 13?

How would anyone feel about a Trek show loosely based on the CSI or NCIS models?

Just speculatin now….

1141. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

#1096 Marja,
I really have nothing right now to debate with you on, as I agree with all you say here. I look forward to future exchanges, though. I have to write my own stuff this afternoon, have spent too much time on this site for today as it is :-)

One thing: I loved it too when Uhura gutted the Klingon so unexpectedly after bravely trying to reason with him. As a girl, I played paperdolls a lot but they weren’t having tea parties or fashion shows, they were a “landing party” (this was pre-Trek, call it mystically Trek), go out and fight for right and justice, leaving the men paperdolls at home,. Well, hell, the male paperdolls were scarce in the first place and ugly (the few I had). But I had female warriors. Yea for me! (Ok, sometimes they were Robin Hoodish instead of landing parties).

All I would say in counterpoint is that I don’t want to CHANGE Keachick’s opinions. I merely want her to treat me and my opinions fairly without flying off the bat and insulting me, thus trying to deny my opinion.

1142. dmduncan - November 29, 2013

1131. Phil – November 29, 2013

Does anyone remember when this thread was about the potential budget for Trek 13?

How would anyone feel about a Trek show loosely based on the CSI or NCIS models?

Just speculatin now….

***

Star Trek—Murder in Space? Not feelin it. ;-)

1143. TrekmadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

CSI and NCIS lose me whenever they use holograms to prove there theories.

Is there a disclaimer somewhere that says that the show is set in the future?!

1144. TrekmadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1138. IDIC Lives! – November 29, 2013

How can the Enterprise go back in time when it doesn’t exist anymore????

Remember the E went back in time a few episodes earlier.

Why would Kirk not just set a course for the 1930s if she was so special to Kirk? Perhas Spock thought Kirk just might make that trip and excised her memory from his mind. That to me is disrespectful to the Captain. I gguess Spock barged in on McCoy right after that and erased his mind as well.

I wonder if Spock’s recall of Edith’s made it into nu-Kirk’s mind in the ST09 mindmeld.

BTW TUP. Spoiler Alert. The Enterprise Starship has NEVER existed.

1145. TrekmadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1144. TrekmadeMeWonder – November 29, 2013
1138. IDIC Lives! – November 29, 2013

How can the Enterprise go back in time when it doesn’t exist anymore????

Remember the E went back in time a few episodes earlier.

Why would Kirk not just set a course for the 1930s if she was so special to Kirk? Perhas Spock thought Kirk just might make that trip and excised her memory from his mind. That to me is disrespectful to the Captain. I guess Spock barged in on McCoy in his office right after that and erased his mind as well.

I wonder if Spock’s recall of Edith’s made it into nu-Kirk’s mind in the ST09 mindmeld.

BTW IDIC (typo corrected). Spoiler Alert. The Enterprise Starship has NEVER existed.

1146. Keachick - November 29, 2013

#1135 – “You KNOW you remember that argument, I believe you tell a frickin fib when you say you cannot remember that debate. If you have forgotten it, maybe you have been involved in so many nasty arguments on the site, they all blend together for you.”

It seems to me that the only person making nasty comments right now is you.

“fib [fɪb]. n. a trivial and harmless *LIE. vb fibs, fibbing, fibbed. (intr) to tell such a lie. [perhaps from fibble-fable an unlikely story; see fable]. fibber n …”

I have not misquoted you at all. As for the rest of your statement above, what can I say? I guess it is a matter of what you want or are determined to believe about me. Perhaps it does all unhappily blend together, but I do need to remind people that it takes two “to tango” or in this case, “to argue”. I did not come back after a month and lay into you. That is what you have done to me, IDIC Lives! Unfortunately, you are not the only person who has done this kind of thing and I doubt you will be the last… I could comment on another little comment made towards me that seems somewhat pejorative, but I won’t. What’s the point?…:(

* my emphasis.

#1145 – Please watch the episode “City on the Edge of Forever” again. It was all explained there.

I had always thought that this episode was made before “Tomorrow is Yesterday” but perhaps that is the order I remember the episodes being screened here on TV. Many of the TOS episodes, it seems, were screened out of order in the US and in other countries, when Star Trek first made its appearance on television.

1147. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

1146 Keachick, My entire statement is the quote. One sentence does not make a quote when there is another sentences involved. The quote is the entire statement.

Do you ever wonder why so many people are annoyed with you? You make bad karma for yourself and once in a while, it shows up several months later. It is no mystery.

1148. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1146. Keachick

i know the episode well. Perhaps I have not seen all the minutes as some episodes are really torn up in syndication.

But let’s agree on one thing. Nimoy’s Spock would get away with tampering with the Captains mind, but Quinto’s Spock would be viewed and judged much more critcally.

1149. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 29, 2013

Keachick,

Stop being such as ass. Cool down.

1150. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 29, 2013

@1099 / IDIC Lives

“I don’t care if I hear or don’t hear about Spock’s Bangs bangs, but I do care that I made 3 intelligent (? well, frick, yes they were), posts yesterday morning and they still are not posted. I know, I know, it was Thanksgiving but I am wondering if and why they were declined, if they were. I don’t even see why they would be held up for consideration.”

Don’t let this all get you down. Keep posting what you believe in, dude. And don’t allow yourself to be bullied either.

1151. Ahmed - November 29, 2013

Sherlock is coming to TV near you on January 2014 :)

======================
#Sherlock S3 airdates have just been confirmed to us in full by the BBC –

S3E1 on Jan 1 2014,
S3E2 on Jan 5 2014,
S3E3 on Jan 12 2014.

https://twitter.com/Sherlockology/status/406376250664812544

1152. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

If anyone is interested regarding comments not being posted on this site, my 3 missing comments are now posted. I wrote them on Thanksgiving so most of the same territory was covered in my posts today. My comment #1040 is a bit different, if you are interested. If not, well, what’s done is done.

1153. Keachick - November 29, 2013

Bullying? Bad karma? Being an ass and not cool…

OK – if you guys say so…

I doubt that you, MJ, would be as gracious if it were you who was being badgered a month later and call a fibber…but whatever

1154. Marja - November 29, 2013

Here’s a conspiracy video TMMW might like ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEnz4dyT1UA

LOL

1155. Ahmed - November 29, 2013

Short interview with Yelchin.

============================
Anton Yelchin talks ‘Star Trek,’ ‘Burying the Ex,’ ‘Terminator’ and astronaut work.

Hitfix: For the “Star Trek” films, in approaching you for the next film in the series, do they ever give you a heads up about how much your character is going to be in the film? What kind of insights do you get as they start?

Yelchin : I get no insights. They call, they say, “We’re going to make the film, wer’er going to make it at this time.” And then they say, “Come read the script.” And then I read it and then I see how much work I have.

Hitfix: Do you have any idea how much of you we’ll have in the next film? I know I could have used more Chekov in the last film.

Yelchin : I really actually know nothing about it. I thought maybe I’d know more by now. I wasn’t around much this summer while I was working, I wasn’t in the loop.

Hitfix: When you’re on set for “Star Trek,” who’s the biggest clown?

Yelchin : We’re all pretty weird. When we get together.

http://www.hitfix.com/immaculate-noise/anton-yelchin-talks-star-trek-burying-the-ex-terminator-and-astronaut-work

============================

Guess he is in the dark, just like the rest of us !!

1156. IDIC Lives! - November 29, 2013

Thanks, MJ.
My 3 missing posts must have orbited in cyberspace for a while. It was probably because of T’giving (a Vulcan holiday as in T’Pau – :-) but there is always the question of something like censorship (yet nothing “bad” to censor), because other posts went up on T’giving.

Regarding Keachick, You are right, a person does have to take a stand on not being bullied, name-called, or accepting being dismissed as “wrong” in one’s opinion, let alone being told one is nasty and malevolent for having an opinion. I could not let it slide anymore. I took a stand. Maybe it seems over the top to some, for that I am sorry. I will not continue it, I believe I have been heard.

“Right fighting” really causes a lot of emotional damage to the right fighter and those he or she is fighting with. And the sad thing is, in matters of opinion, there really is no absolute right. I hate to quote Dr. Phil, but–how is right-fighting workin’ for ya?

I hope to comment now and then in a normal manner from here on; however, if it happens again, I will be just as determined to point it out.

1157. Keachick - November 29, 2013

#1134 – The Roddenberry family may have made public statements re the various affairs, but that does not necessarily entitle others, anybodies, to keep commenting on events that two deceased individuals were a party to many years before.

It is quite possible that making public statements highlighting the actual situations is a way of correcting erroneous, negative rumour and gossip and/or confirming what has been previously alleged to be fact in order to clear the air, as it were. Trying to keep hidden or is really simply a matter of privacy something that busy bodies and prying eyes are trying to get wind of, or because certain people know of and choose to report for the purposes of creating scandalous copy to sell books etc could, I imagine, become incredibly burdensome, especially if what is being put about for joe-public’s (across the planet now) consumption is not altogether truthful.

I am pleased that Gene Roddenberry’s younger son can be open, honest and presumably accepting of his father, despite the flaws and any hurt that GR may have caused to the women and children in his life. Any of the Roddenberry’s can and should be able to say as they wish about their family’s past, however a little discretion on the part of how we (joe-public) might respond to any revelations, I think, is in order.

1158. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - November 29, 2013

@1156. IDIC Lives! – November 29, 2013

I had a post go into moderation limbo for a day or so a couple of weeks ago. I had misspelled my pseudonym. I think it is part of the tightening up that has taken place on this site in the past couple of months. I’m sure I recall a post by Matt to the effect that posts from ‘new’ posters would go into moderation. I think it is part of the effort to cut down on the likelihood of individual posters using multiple pseudonyms on this site.

It’s frustrating when it happens, but the posts (mostly) turn up eventually, and I personally would rather that than a totally unregulated forum.

1159. Marja - November 29, 2013

1115, TUP And that becomes more apparent with the Carol Marcus underwear scene. That scene in and of itself didnt bother me. But taking all the evidence together, it’s hard to respect the portrayal of women. Look at Uhura, she’s the “strong woman” in the movie and yet she’s emotional, nagging, “bitchy” and lets her feelings get in the way of her duty.

And in turn, your “portrayal” of Uhura as nagging and bitchy is pretty hard for me to respect. THE FILMMAKERS’ portrayal was problematic because they showed Uhura initiating a conversation with Spock about their relationship in the company of others, not in private, so people dismiss that as her being a “bitch” and a “nag.” Yes, perhaps she let those feelings “get in the way of her duty,” but Kirk and Spock, her senior officers, let it slide because – perhaps – they were interested in what she had to say in a quiet moment? Or, this could contibute further ammunition to TOS diehards in their assertions re: AU Kirk’s poor leadership and the OOC characterization of Kirk?

Yeah, she’s emotional in the moment of Spock’s imminent death, but does her duty, so what’s the big problem? If it’s that she waited till Kirk gave her an order to perform Comms functions, I can understand it to some extent, but then why does Sulu, for example, execute navigational maneuvers AFTER the captain gives them, instead of anticipating and doing as he sees fit?

1160. Marja - November 29, 2013

1079 Bernie, I normally stay to the end-end of the credits at the movies too, till the screen goes blank and the lights go on! However, my friend who had treated me to the movie had a hella backache and could hardly wait to leave DANG IT ALL

1161. Marja - November 29, 2013

1115 TUP, I really hated that deleted scene because of Kirk’s usage of Gaila, and am heartily glad they cut it out. I hope they resist all future ideas of “disposable women.”

1162. Marja - November 29, 2013

1116 IDIC, Kirk in the AU is not TOS Kirk. He is AU Kirk. We can hope he becomes more like TOS Kirk, but his “nurture” has been different, and this Kirk sometimes acts like an asshat. He’s young yet and does not always behave with conduct becoming such a prematurely senior officer, but that’s the AU.

Some characters may have been changed to protect their TOS identity? :-)

1163. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1154. Marja

LOL. Thanks for thinking of me!

Just to show you ALL how easy it is to converse about a video post here at TM I will submit my review.

The cats were cute. It made me recall many moments growing up. Often I would stay up late into the night waiting for Star Trek on the old TV set with WPXI tuned in as well as the antennae would allow. Late at night cats would cry out much like the cat in your video. Always a creepy sound.

However, other than the Triangle crudly resenbling theStar Trek insignia, the signifigance of your cat video eludes me. It opnly has 56K hits and it does not seem to have much of a constructive message. But overall I think I get the gist of your post. To be honest, it kinda sucks that you would devote your efforts to knocking some of my earlier (and not to be mentioned without real need again, eh Phil?) 911 video submission.

At least mine had some direct relevance to Trek, STiD, its fandom, and comunity here. Even if it made some uncomfortable to discuss. But as I stated above. That was in the spirit of Gene’s vision of keeping Trek topical with its vutting social and political commentary. But even though Trek was suppossed to be the most supportive, I continue to get cut down for bringing it up. But alas, this is a review of your flick. And my review is that it is kinda lame, it must have taken at leat 5 or 6 hours for someone to put that together for what reason I do not know.

Well, I hope you do have the time and decency to review the video I had posted earlier in this thread. I would definately appreciate to hear your, or anyone elses thoughts. I may deepen your thoughts about STiD and after a full viewing, perhaps a better understanding of what my have happened to us all. Seems to me boborci tried to carry the true essence of Gene’s vision in STiD by including such subtle themes and storylines. I did not miss that teme in ST09 and STiD, and I won’t deny a warning that such crimes occur all too often.

BTW, you’re welcome to comment as well, boborci. But you all probably won’t, so in response,..

…here is a nonsensical video for you all to ponder! LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRvfxWRi6qQ

1164. Marja - November 29, 2013

Bernie, my above is a reply to your 1120, OOPS !
—————————
1119, Duncan See, it’s ALL real news. At the time I was pissed at what the Republicans were doing to Clinton, but Clinton was ALSO proven to be a man whose sexual choices made him weak and vulnerable, so like it or not they did a service to voters who actually use FACTS to calculate decisions by getting the truth out about the man.

I was also pissed that there was very little reporting of how much money Starr and the Republican congress used on Clinton’s peccadilloes. If they were that concerned about the latter [which admittedly show a hell of lot of poor judgement on Clinton’s part], I think they could have saved the US taxpayer $4M and ordered the president to a private clinic for sex addicts on pain of censure. They were playing a nasty game of politics, pure and simple.

The impeachment was beyond ridiculous. The actions of congress c/w Clinton’s affected the US taxpayer, the business of congress, and nonsensically took up media bandwidth when the latter two would have been much better occupied with the more important business of running the government. To me it was an insult to the American people, much moreso than Clinton’s insult to his wife and the office of the president. The truth about Clinton and his stupid sexual appetites was already known; Starr pursued it for so long to further humiliate the man and imply he was unfit to be president, when in the past Kennedy did far worse.

By the way the president of France, Jacques Chirac, was known while in office to have had three, count ‘em three, mistresses.

1165. Marja - November 29, 2013

1121 who cares, and MJ

“Winter Soldier” previews sure struck me as a ripoff of STiD. Which could easily have been a ripoff of something else before it. I don’t know anything about the whole plot of the “Cap” movie, however.

1166. Marja - November 29, 2013

1130 who cares, Ms Monroe indeed sang a sexed-up version of “Happy Birthday;” it was rather tuneless, alas.
——————————
1132 TMMW, Perhaps that may have been Kirk’s intentions until Spock erased that memory from his Captain’s memory.

Umm, I think the only time Spock ever erased Kirk’s memory was after his affair with Rayna the android in “Requiem for Methuselah.”

But yeah, the change-abouts in time travel capabilities didn’t serve TOS very well. Those were the days of episodic TV with little to no reference to previous “facts” established in that universe. Later Treks adhered to internal history/canon.
——————————

1167. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 29, 2013

“Well, I hope you do have the time and decency to review the video I had posted earlier in this thread. I would definately appreciate to hear your, or anyone elses thoughts.”

Come one TrekMadeMeWonder, I thought you were done with your “religious-like” deal of trying to convert us all to 911 Truthers here. Give it up, and stick to Star Trek — and I think you have been doing that pretty well recently, and cleaning up your act, so I commend you for the effort. Just stick to it — STAR TREK, NOT 911 TRUTHER RELIGION.

Thank you in advance!

1168. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 29, 2013

Exactly. And I found the Winter Solider comic from the mid-2000’s online that WhoCares is referring to, and, while I can see some aspect of that in the trailer, the trailer still looks like more like STID than that comic. And I did not see in that comic the Vengeance-like falling out the sky huge shipping crashing in bay right next to a major city — that is just like the end of STID.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1165. Marja – November 29, 2013
1121 who cares, and MJ

“Winter Soldier” previews sure struck me as a ripoff of STiD. Which could easily have been a ripoff of something else before it. I don’t know anything about the whole plot of the “Cap” movie, however.

1169. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 29, 2013

Marja,

The primary difference between Kennedy and Clinton concerning those issues, is that Kennedy had multiple liaisons while President, whereas Clinton just had the one. Kennedy was a horn-dog of epic proportions.

1170. Marja - November 29, 2013

1119. TUP – I once put forth a theory on here that Kirk actually falls in love with all these women. Part of what makes him who he is is his incredible depth of emotion. What he sees in the women is an escape from reality because he knows deep down he can never have the happy family life. So whenever he meets someone, he falls in love with them so quicly, chasing that fantasy, the question “could this be the one…” but ofcourse none of them are because his “one true best destiny” is Starship Captain.

Yup, and as I recall, there was something to this effect that Roddenberry mentioned in ‘The Making of Star Trek.’

I would add that he seems to have lots of respect for most of these women.

1171. K-7 - November 29, 2013

who cares, Marja, MJ,

We covered the Winter Solider STID thing a few weeks back here. We had I think more than 10 people agreeing with the comparison, with Ahmed being the only hold-out (sounds familiar…lol).

1172. Marja - November 29, 2013

1140 Phil, I would find it interesting, but as you point out, the writers would need to find a way to counteract the “all-knowing technology” for a suspenseful plot. Technobabble each week to explain this would be a total boreass, eh?

Personally [and being of Coast Guard extraction] I’d find the interdiction/Search and Rescue / Disaster Recovery show much more interesting. We’d get to see the modern-day Corps of Engineers constructing temporary housing, the doctors and nurses seeing to victims of the disasters, see the drama of folks dealing with personal losses. We’d get to see pirates and drug-smugglers experiencing the smackdown of a Starfleet vessel interdicting and arresting them for their actions. We could see disasters of environmetal pollution resolved by Starfleet specialists. Wheee!

1173. Red Dead Ryan - November 29, 2013

TMMW, you baited Bob into a bitter argument a couple of months ago with your truther agenda, and managed to hijack the thread. Do not think of us as idiots who do not know what you are up to here.

Geez, you and Ahmed really need to stop resorting to these desperate measures to get attention.

1174. Marja - November 29, 2013

1163 TMMW, I have seen several 9/11 conspiracy videos, and had a long discussion with an intelligent guy in a cafe re: same. I’ve even watched “alien invasion” videos. I’ve listened to Fundamentalist Christians preach about their coming Apocalypse.

I do not stay willfully ignorant of things which have great significance to people, especially those who question our invasion of Iraq. I simply do not agree with the “truther” view and don’t plan to spend much time on it right now.

But thanks for your kind response to my funnin’ of your repeated 9/11 video posts.

1175. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1166. Marja

You are right. I bow to your great Star Trek knowledge. I commend you!

1167. MJ

You should check yourself on this one. I can see both sides of most topics, why can’t others, I wonder?

Funny that you take such an emotional response to my posts concerning Trek’s recent dark themes. It is however, what boborci wants from his writing.
Discussion and passionate thought. No?

1176. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

Oh, yeah.

City on the Edge of forever had that famous last line.

Let’s get the Hell outta here.

Then the crew beams out. AWESOME!

1177. Marja - November 29, 2013

1163 TMMW, I checked that one out JAYSIS ON A POPSICLE STICK WTH WERE THEY THINKING

1178. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1174. Marja

Your the 1st to comment! If not a bit cryptically. And it’s only taken 3 months since I brought it up!

But I respect that.

Thank you. I will not bring it up again, unless discussion warrants it. I can see how it touches on so many nerves.

1179. Ahmed - November 29, 2013

@ 1173. Red Dead Ryan – November 29, 2013

“Geez, you and Ahmed really need to stop resorting to these desperate measures to get attention.”

RDR, WHAT THE F**K ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT HERE NOW ?

1180. Marja - November 29, 2013

1169 MJ, “JFK was a horndog of epic proportions” yep. Which makes it all the more puzzling to me that Congress, Kenneth Starr and the media excoriated Clinton to such excess and such tax waste.

OTOH, considering modern politickin’, it doesn’t puzzle me at all

1181. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1177. Marja

Caps were prescribed for your last post. LOL

Best I can think of is there was a battle at Wright Pat between a disfigured half breed alien and a chihuahua.

Looked to me like the chihuahua won! HA!
But, I seriously don’t know. HA! HA!

1182. Marja - November 29, 2013

1178 TMMW, perhaps it doesn’t get on people’s nerves so much as it bores them. They have perhaps done the same things as I; people may have wider experience than one might think.

1183. Ahmed - November 29, 2013

@ 1171. K-7 – November 29, 2013

” who cares, Marja, MJ,
We covered the Winter Solider STID thing a few weeks back here. We had I think more than 10 people agreeing with the comparison, with Ahmed being the only hold-out (sounds familiar…lol).”

You are free to make your own assumption about a movie that didn’t come out yet in theaters. Me, on the other hand, will wait until I watch the movie & THEN make my judgment about it.

1184. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1173. Red Dead Ryan

IT WAS AN HONEST QUESTION TO ASK.

Too bad for you that you get caught up in your negative emotions.

1185. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1182. Marja

Cryptic. And its just too touchy a conversation to have here now. Unless we get permissions from some of the perennial moderators here.

1186. Marja - November 29, 2013

K-7, Yeah, I remember the extensive Winter Soldier discussion; I was responding to MJ who I think wanted my opinion, and since I hadn’t participated in the previous I answered him :-)
——————————

1173 RedDead, WTH? I didn’t know Ahmed had been posting 9/11 truther vids o_O

1187. Tom - November 29, 2013

I was watching TNG episode Yesterdays Enterprise the other day. I was thinking what a great way to get an old Enterprise or more into the new movie. Another Temporal Rift. Of course the movie wouldn’t be based on it . Might be a fan wank but would be real fun to see Nu Kirk see Kirk Prime and/or Picard in some way support the story as Enterprise C did for that episode

1188. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1183. Ahmed – November 29, 2013

@ 1171. K-7 – November 29, 2013

” who cares, Marja, MJ,
We covered the Winter Solider STID thing a few weeks back here.

I am certainly glad to there is an awareness that to message may be getting too two dimensional.

If this pattern continues, if we do see it in a lot of movies next year too, would you not think there is a conspiracy within Hollyweird to promote this warmonger mentality as a necessary evil in today’s world?

At least Iron-man seemed to initially promote a departure. But a couple movies later there is still no real dispersion to the public, the little guys, of the awesome tech we see Stark use. ie. the Arc technology. Guess it’s appropriate. That character has billions.

1189. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1187. Tom

Perhaps a young Kirk, Pine. and a young Picard, Tom Hardy of course.

I’d pay!

(And not because Tom and I shared a scene in Dark Knight Rises)

1190. Marja - November 29, 2013

IDIC Lives! 1100, 1108, 1109, and 1141

First, I love that you are someone like me who believes Uhura has shown “heroism” instead of “being ‘rescued’ by Khan,” as some have asserted.

RE: my observation about writing Science Fiction, I’m talking about Keachick’s obvious love for social commentary and societal exploration, both qualities many of us admire in Star Trek, and both subjects explored by SF writers. IMHO you would probably be more of a “hard SF” writer, if you write fiction.

I wish I could put the following in a private message, but TM doesn’t allow for that, so at the risk of public slammings, I submit:

This is from something you wrote to Keachick, and I offer it here because it is relevant to my opinions below. Then someone offers another opinion, which also should be fine – and often that opinion is more in harmony with the canon behavior and personality of the characters, but be that as it may, –you then call the opinion by the other person some adjective which means rude and stupid and degrades their personal worth. They respond, flabbergasted.

Now here you assert that someone’s read of canon is more accurate than another’s. The AU establishes new canon, so I’m thinking that you speak of TOS canon, not AU canon, and the twain have not yet met, if indeed they are ever meant to. I can’t personally see that happening, i.e., the “re-set” folks have spoken of. But your last two thoughts there bear further examination.

Marja, “Passion” is no excuse for rudeness.

OK, I’m with you there. Please bear with me for the following paragraphs.

I do not see even-ing out Keachick and me out to a cookie cutter pattern of “Oh, those two are so passionate.” That’s an excuse and it breeds mediocrity; it is actually the main reason I left the site before. Crazydaystrom and you seemed to want “peace at all costs.” Tis not my way.

OK, so you seem to have denied my opinion and equated me and Daystrom with people who are comfortable with mediocrity; you’ve equated polite debate with “peace at all costs” … “all costs” further implying that we are breeding mediocrity.

This is my feeling reaction to what you wrote there: How patronizing! Perhaps it is not the reaction you wanted or intended to engender. Or perhaps you are asserting your superiority as a person and as a debater.

All I would say in counterpoint is that I don’t want to CHANGE Keachick’s opinions. I merely want her to treat me and my opinions fairly without flying off the bat and insulting me, thus trying to deny my opinion.

Malevolent “misguided?” No, just mean and stupid. You make too many excuses, Marja.

These comments are somewhat puzzling, not so much regarding Keachick, but regarding your own actions. I feel you’ve been patronizing to me.

Is that fair, or is that insulting? I don’t feel you have necessarily treated my opinions fairly here. You seem to have judged me and found me too lenient. In fact I may even go so far as to say I feel insulted by it, because it is an opinion of me, expressed by someone I otherwise respect.

So you may see that Keachick’s “strategy” of insulting others is not unique to her. It is pretty widespread here, and based on your screen name, I hoped for better from you. You are obviously highly intelligent, but IMO you are not as sensitive to others as you may think, or would like others to be toward you.

Granted, Keachick – and many others – resort to very direct insults at times, and I don’t think you’ve necessarily been direct about it toward me. But you can see how I can draw implications from your words that you may not intend. You haven’t said “duh!” or accused me of lying, but I resent the implication that I’m too lazy to debate properly. In a situation of debate, I try to consider the feelings of others.

I hereby apologize to you for not coming down harder on Keachick’s rudeness and insults to others. As I’ve already said, she’s a piker compared with other people here. I think sometimes that people land harder on her for doing exactly the same thing as some guys have done here, simply because she’s a voluble female.

Also, I find myself wondering what IDIC means to you? Just asking.

1191. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 29, 2013

Say whatever you want concerning me, but if I stop hearing about that wack-job video, then I did my job here.

And as I said, your conduct here has been improving, and I commend you for that. — thanks again!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1167. MJ

You should check yourself on this one. I can see both sides of most topics, why can’t others, I wonder?

Funny that you take such an emotional response to my posts concerning Trek’s recent dark themes. It is however, what boborci wants from his writing.
Discussion and passionate thought. No?

1192. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1191. MJ

You got it.

1193. Keachick - November 29, 2013

When it comes to politicians and other big wig public servants like mayors and some announcement that one of these guys is having an affair, it actually pays to look behind the scene and the sensationalism and ask about what controversial legislation could someone in the office be trying to push through at the same time that press and joe-public alike are huffing and puffing about what, eg constitutes “real sex” in the Clinton/Lewinsky case.

I think that a lot of these *shocking revelations* about a politician’s bad (bedroom) behaviour can be a smokescreen to hide something being decided that really could impact on people’s lives in a significant way and perhaps, for many, in an untoward way. It’s got to be such an easy thing to do in a population who appear to be so negatively obsessed with anything hinting of that three letter word.

A few weeks ago, our city’s married mayor was apparently caught out having an affair. People were saddened and disappointed in the mayor’s behaviour but most people thought it was none of their business and something he and his wife need to sort out in private. They wanted to be told news that is of real significance, like whether the Auckland Council is on target when it comes to the upgrading of rail links or whether any rates increases are really that necessary, etc.

1194. Keachick - November 29, 2013

I can recall describing a post of IDIC as “malevolent” but I cannot recall the title of the thread, so that I can reacquaint myself with the entire context of the discussion. A title and date of posting of thread would be helpful.

1195. Marja - November 29, 2013

1183 Ahmed, dude, I was talking about the Cap Winter Soldier trailer and made a point of saying I didn’t know the whole plot of the movie …

————————–
TMMW re: Tom Hardy as Picard, dear me, I hope not. For some reason I can’t abide Tom Hardy. Maybe [formerly] young man who played Picard’s nephew and then played a young Picard in “Tapestry.” Him or the actor who plays opposite Stewart as the young Professor X in “X Men First Class” and the upcoming XMen movie. [CRS — can’t remember stuff, durn it]

1196. Keachick - November 29, 2013

Here are reviews of the first two comics just published –

http://www.flickeringmyth.com/2013/07/star-trek-khan-comic-series-coming-soon.html

http://www.flickeringmyth.com/2013/11/comic-book-review-star-trek-khan-2.html

If you read, these comics are not intended for children. In fact, the reviewer states that there is some really graphic violence. Seriously – I do have to wonder if the writers (including the consultant, Bob Orci) are not a little unhinged. Honestly, this just sounds a bit sick, psychotic.

Bob Orci – care to comment?

1197. Keachick - November 29, 2013

#1172 – Sounds good to me!

1198. Ahmed - November 29, 2013

@ 1195. Marja – November 29, 2013

“1183 Ahmed, dude, I was talking about the Cap Winter Soldier trailer and made a point of saying I didn’t know the whole plot of the movie …”

I was replying to K-7, who again dragged my name in his comment. I quoted his comment, which included your name & two others, in my reply.

1199. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1195. Marja

Tom Hardy was in Nemesis and played Picard’s clone, As I am sure you know.

1200. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

Plus he was just in a movie with Chris Pine. As I am sure you already know.

1201. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1198. Ahmed

I agree Ahmed. Many similarities.

1202. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 29, 2013

No thanks with Tom Hardy. Michael Rosenbaumm, anyone?

1203. Ahmed - November 29, 2013

@ 1202. MJ — THE GRAND RETURN !!! – November 29, 2013

“No thanks with Tom Hardy. Michael Rosenbaumm, anyone?”

I will second that. Michael Rosenbaum was great as the young Lex Luthor in Smallville.

1204. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

Nice choice!

I had not thought of that actor in a while. He was good on Smallville.

Although Harry Ballz would have issue with him. Too close to Erica.

1205. DiscoSpock - November 29, 2013

OK, here we go…Star Trek 2016: Generations War. This will feature a recast TNG crew coming back in time to save the Federation from the misdirected and corrupt era we saw in STID. At a key point in the movie, Hardy, as a young Captain Picard, will deliver this speech to the bombed out population of San Francisco who have just had to deal with the attacks from space from the nuTOS blunderous cast of Trek 2009 and STID:

“We take the Federation from the corrupt! The rich! The oppressors of “Generations” who have kept you down with myths of opportunity, and we give it back to you… the people. The Federation is yours. None shall interfere. Do as you please. Start by storming Starfleet HQ, and freeing the oppressed! Step forward those who would serve. For and army will be raised. The powerful will be ripped from their decadent nests, and cast out into the cold world that we know and endure. Courts will be convened. Spoils will be enjoyed. Blood will be shed. Starfleet will survive, as they learn to serve true justice. This great city… it will endure. San Franicso will survive! “

1206. Red Dead Ryan - November 29, 2013

Ahmed,

I was referring to to the fact that you and TMMW have deliberately baited Bob in the past couple of months.

1207. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1205. DiscoSpock

That was inspired!

1208. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1206. Red Dead Ryan

There is nothing wrong with baiting boborci with enticing and truthful thoughts.

1209. Red Dead Ryan - November 29, 2013

#1208 TMMW.

Propaganda is not the same as truth, no matter how enticing.

1210. Ahmed - November 29, 2013

@ 1206. Red Dead Ryan – November 29, 2013

“Ahmed,
I was referring to to the fact that you and TMMW have deliberately baited Bob in the past couple of months.”

OK, I see that you still thinking about the BOB INCIDENT. I’m seriously thinking that you are suffering from PTSD as a result of that incident!!

Tell me, are you experiencing any of the following symptoms:

1- Intrusive, upsetting memories of the event
2- Flashbacks (acting or feeling like the event is happening again)
3- Nightmares (either of the event or of other frightening things)
4- Feelings of intense distress when reminded of the trauma
5- Intense physical reactions to reminders of the event (e.g. pounding heart, rapid breathing, nausea, muscle tension, sweating)

From your frequent rantings about that incident, it is clear that you have the 1st, 2nd & 4th symptoms. Perhaps you need to check with your heath care provider & seek treatment!

1211. Ahmed - November 29, 2013

Disclaimer:

Information about the PTSD symptoms mentioned in my previous comment was collected from:

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_symptoms_treatment.htm

1212. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

Hmmm. MThe video I posted seemed like a citizens call to action video to me.
I see no political action commitee, corporation, or governement behind its making – as far as I can tell. That’s why I wanted your opinion. Let me guess. You did not make it 30 secs into the video. The interesting part is the testimonies put forth by people whom were there that day. With 3 or 4 cops reporting as well.

I hope you watched the whole video. Propaganda?
That just does not make sense to me here.

1213. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

LOL

1214. Red Shirt Diaries - November 29, 2013

#1212.

No one here wants to talk about your video. Enough already! My American soul doesn’t need you or your video to rescue it.

1215. Garak's Pride - November 29, 2013

Yea Red Shirt, I agree!

TrekMadeMeWonder — I thought you were dropping the video stuff finally? Come on, guy. Enough is enough!

1216. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

Geez. I said I’d drop it if you guys would. 1206 is clearly asking for more.

I was’nt going to post this, but since you are STILL bringing it up AGAIN..
.

1217. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

You have shown little consideration for my sincere thoughts as I was the one promoting that video. Because I sincerely had good reason to want your insights, your thoughts about it.

Why? I wish I could put the following in a private message, but TM doesn’t allow for that, so at the risk of public slammings, I submit:

I still can’t believe “they” got away with it! There is way too many coincidences or coverups, or taboos that have taken importance over a pursuit of those responsible for “that day.” And “that day” has passed many, many times too often for me to take lightly, or to shut up when it comes to meaningful discussion of such “conspiracies.”

Here are some people that received too little press whilst protesting the 50th anniversary of the JFK tragedy. Their speech was squashed as well.

Love to hear you comments on something like this. But as it leads further away from Trek, I am thinking you may find reason to blow it off. But it is a good example of PRECIOUS freedoms lost, while a strict “federalized party line” is adhered too. Sound familiar you two?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y88Mpm9vDV8

1218. Red Shirt Diaries - November 29, 2013

“But as it leads further away from Trek, I am thinking you may find reason to blow it off”

YES, EXACTLY!

YOU “BROKE THE CODE” FINALLY — NO MORE VIDEO POSTS NOW — I THINK YOU FINALLY GET IT !

1219. K-7 - November 29, 2013

Sheesh,

More stuff on that 911 truther video?

My God, I wish that guy would just go away. By comparison, he makes Ahmed sound like Santa Claus.

1220. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT!

Christ, I have to defend myself here so much, and when I do you guys leap.

Nice conversation, you nit-wits.

1221. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

BTW On CSPAN now, the speaker Mark Lane just explained why you guys don’t care.

YOU DONT HAVE A CONCERN IN THE MATTER. You could care less if someone is really hurt like on 911, or killed like JFK. You just really don’t care and it’s non of your concern. So yeah. My bad. Wrong group.

OUT!

1222. Red Shirt Diaries - November 29, 2013

#1221

OK, sure.

Now can we move on please….

1223. Dave H - November 29, 2013

OMG,

Not “the video” again…really?…really?

1224. Red Shirt Diaries - November 29, 2013

Dave H,

Yes, “the video” again. Argh!

1225. Red Shirt Diaries - November 29, 2013

Switching topics,

Here’s betting that Marvel NEVER opens one of their movies again only two weeks before one of the Hunger Games movies. LOL

1226. DiscoSpock - November 29, 2013

Hey TrekMadeMeWonder,

I thought you had told everyone here that you would not be proselytizing about that video anymore?

My advice to you concerning your future participation here would be:

Mean what you say, and say what you mean.

1227. DiscoSpock - November 29, 2013

“Here’s betting that Marvel NEVER opens one of their movies again only two weeks before one of the Hunger Games movies.”

Yea, Catching Fire completely took the wind out of Thor’s sails.

1228. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1226. DiscoSpock

Thanks for mentioning that Disco. I’ll do my best. thanks!

1229. Dave H - November 29, 2013

@1226

“Hey TrekMadeMeWonder, I thought you had told everyone here that you would not be proselytizing about that video anymore? My advice to you concerning your future participation here would be: Mean what you say, and say what you mean.”

Great advice. I hope the guy is “listening.” Why do we keep having to repeat this exercise???

1230. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

You guys are funny.

Thanks for the chuckles. It eases my work.

1231. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

1229. Dave H

Thanks. doing my best. Keep o-oon trekkin’.

1232. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

Dave? Why? See 1220.

1233. Dave H - November 29, 2013

Thanks. Even if you are being sarcastic — thanks nevertheless! :-)

1234. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

Here is a theme I proposed at 777,

So. Any new story ideas for nu-ST-III? I’d say keep expanding the mythos of the alternate universe. I would suggest a theme that the new 24th Century tech has out-paced our heroes and Starfleet’s sensibilities.

Perhaps there will be less a reliance on Starships. Perhaps the Enterprise could face a familiar threat of becoming a museum, or drydocked! If not to borrow on Galactica. Heresy. But with a now beaming and expanding Starfleet, the Klingons and highly absent Romulans may then want to launch there own pre-emptive sneak attack on SF, to stop their rapid encroachment and abuses of Power.

I think It would be fun to see SF and the nu-Trek universe decend so much further into darkness than in ID.

So far that It would take a highly courageous captain and crew to set things right.

Yes. you know what that means. Restore the timeline. And I’d save that for the forth movie. .

1235. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 29, 2013

Here is a theme I proposed at 777,

So. Any new story ideas for nu-ST-III? I’d say keep expanding the mythos of the alternate universe. I would suggest a theme that the new 24th Century tech has out-paced our heroes and Starfleet’s sensibilities.

Perhaps there will be less a reliance on Starships. Perhaps the Enterprise could face a familiar threat of becoming a museum, or drydocked! If not to borrow on Galactica. Heresy. But with a now beaming and expanding Starfleet, the Klingons and highly absent Romulans may then want to launch there own pre-emptive sneak attack on SF, to stop their rapid encroachment and abuses of Power.

I think It would be fun to see SF and the nu-Trek universe decend so much further into darkness than in ID.

So far that It would take a highly courageous captain and crew to set things right.

Yes. you know what that means. Restore the timeline. And I’d save that for the forth movie. .

1236. Red Shirt Diaries - November 29, 2013

#1235

Guy, are your drinking right now? Seriously, I picture you living in a trailer, downing on cheap Old Milwaukee beer after another in the evening as you post here.

1237. DiscoSpock - November 29, 2013

TrekMadeMeWonder,

Although I am happy you switched topics finally, coming up with a post like this that really just makes fun of STID isn’t really helpful. But it did bring a smile to my face — maybe you meant it as humor?

1238. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 30, 2013

Ouch.

No that was kinda serious.

I thought TOS was replete with that type of metaphor.

1239. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 30, 2013

1236. Red Shirt Diaries

Actually a large 3br apartment of which I usually only a small percent.

1240. TrekMadeMeWonder - November 30, 2013

1236. Red Shirt Diaries

Actually a large 3br apartment of which I usually only occupy a small percent.

1241. DiscoSpock - November 30, 2013

Oh OK,

Sorry for my misunderstanding. Taking what you said then, I think STID already went dark enough, and I would like to see more a strange new worlds/deep space story this time around. I think we could use a break from Earth, as well as Federation politics, for the next movie.

Going to bed — have a good night!

1242. Phil - November 30, 2013

Carl Sagan has been dead 17 years, and still does one hellva job debunking junk science. Truthers, like their UFO counterparts (frequently one in the same) rely exclusively on junk science and a desire on the part of the public to be seen as tolerant of others ideas…regardless of how ridiculous they are. My thoughts? Truthers are about as relevant as Santa Claus. Fun to think about every now and then, but fiction. As this is a fictional site, it’s fair game, I suppose.

Read The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. And if you want to frustrate a truther, take a class in basic structural design at your community college. Everything you will learn there will debunk every truther video you will ever come across.

1243. IDIC Lives! - November 30, 2013

1190 Marja,

The canon I was referring to was the fact that keachick had proposed that Kirk take time off, hand the chair to Spock, and help raise David “a while,” perhaps on a research station with Carol. THAT was the crux of the argument.

I responded with a number of reasons as to WHY NOT, as did TUP. One is that in both TOS and JJ’s universe, this is not consistent with Kirk nor the TWOK “story of David and Carol.”

That IS canon. But I never approached it in the tone of, “Well, Keachick, your opinion cannot exist.” However, that is how she approached it; and “right fighting” is when an individual will just not give up and allow both opinions to stand, but begins to call names, adjectives, gets emotional, simply to have her way be the last word – so she can be THE way.
It’s a tantrum of sorts and on a more serious level, it wrecks marriages and what not.

This is something others complain about with Keachick too, even on this thread. I tried to tackle it, so to speak. I was insulted by her name calling too, to be honest.

As for all your other arguments here, I could spend the morning answering them but I have better things to do, Marja. Let it lie.

What I said when I left the site before, still stands in my estimation: If all the kids on the soccer field get a trophy for their “effort,” there is no motivation for the excellence of the winning team. It means mediocrity for the society, because, “Peace at all costs.” We don’t go to the moon anymore, for instance. We have been dumbed down.

If one watches the Kardashians instead of TOS, we have the current state of society. If one reads “how I lost 500 pounds” instead of reading “Grapes of Wrath,” we have a dumbed down society, self absorbed. But sure, people have a right to watch the Kardashians. Far be it from me to say they do not!

But not to have a bit of (yeah) PASSION as I reply to someone who uses the old moral majority terms “potty mouth, F bomb” insults, as someone who says we should not breathe a word about who GR was on a personal basis, someone who says Kirk should “organize a research station and raise David,” and more, these are opinions which bring out my passion to present the other side.

Sure, canon is in the head of the individual. WELL–to a point.
There is the Trek we love, the Trek that makes Trek, Trek.

Call me arrogant or whatever you want, go right ahead, but I’m not arguing this with you anymore. I’m sick of it and so, no doubt, are other commenters.

One of these days, all you’ll have a thread with Keachick with long off beat comments, you defending her, and a few guys with short threads and their beer (no offense guys). Other people just shut up, not worth the struggle. (er, guys, I didn’t mean you have short threads….)

1244. IDIC Lives! - November 30, 2013

“To boldly go –” to organize the research station, to change diapers, and to never dream of dropping “the F bomb.” Our James T. Kirk is certainly not a potty mouth and never, ever arrogant..

Don’t bother with your reply. Yep, it is sarcastic.

1245. IDIC Lives! - November 30, 2013

And sure, James T. and the research station diapers are canon too in some mind somewhere.

As TUP said, “Jeesh.”

1246. Curious Cadet - November 30, 2013

Thor is tracking similarly to STID domestically, and at the same point in its run has made about the same amount at the domestic box office. Internationally Thor has blown STID out of the water. As it stands, Thor has made almost $100 million more worldwide in its first 21 days than STID did during its entire run. It also cost $20 million less to produce. Interestingly, the first Thor made about the same amount STID (and cost $40 million less). Paramount then upped the budget by $20 million and Thor 2 has already more than recouped the investment worldwide, with the rest of the holidays to easily climb past $600 million — and it still cost less and will make much more than STID.

The idea presented here that Thor is somehow not doing very well is surprising, when compared to the ridculously positive spin that STIDs own box office received here which is why I even bother comparing them. Thor is not a billion dollar franchise, it’s not iron man, nor the Avengers, with none of their star power. It’s tracking on par domestically with Captain America, X-Men, and Hulk, and generally outpacing STIDs performance, as well as its own debut film both domestically and internationally, something STID failed to do. I would be stunned to find Disney is the least bit concerned about Thor’s spectacular box office performance.

1247. Phil - November 30, 2013

I don’t think anyone here has said that Thor isn’t doing well. What has been said is that STID’s will finish the year in the domestic top ten, with Catching Fire and either Hobbit-2 (or now, possibly Disney’s Frozen) passing it. Thor will not break the top ten, the movie does not have another 50MM in domestic box office in it. That’s not opinion or conjecture, that’s just math.

Marvels crown jewels are Spider-Man, Avengers, and Iron-Man. As long as costs are managed, all it’s other characters are solid performers who you can usually count on for good worldwide box office. Disney obviously thinks Star Wars has the same potential. And what frustrates fans here is the Trek universe seems to have similar potential, except the idiots at Paramount and CBS keep squabbling over it.

1248. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@ 1219. K-7 – November 29, 2013

“My God, I wish that guy would just go away. By comparison, he makes Ahmed sound like Santa Claus.”

F**K OFF, a$$hole !

1249. Curious Cadet - November 30, 2013

@1247. Phil,
“Thor will not break the top ten, the movie does not have another 50MM in domestic box office in it. That’s not opinion or conjecture, that’s just math.”

Thor made an estimated $4.5 million Friday. If it follows typical weekend patterns it will likely make $15 million this weekend domestically. Given it’s performance internationally, possibly at least equal or more. If it keeps earning like that it will easily make $50 million by the end of the year, if not by the end of its domestic run.

While I don’t doubt Thor is cooling off, my point is, at the same time in STID’s box office run, people were saying not only did STID have another $50 million left in it, but potentially, $130 million! Yet Thor has just as much quality box office time remaining for itself through the holidays. That you maintain it does not as a mathematical certainty is astonishing.

So, again I say, we shall see. The fact of the matter is, Thor has been managed extremely well, and has improved both domestically and internationally over its freshman film, and has managed to keep costs down, thus maximizing profits it made, if not enough to satisfy some. Something Paramount failed to do with STID. There are definitely some lessons to be learned here.

As for Frozen, it’s a kids film. The idea that anyone would suggest it will earn another $220 million by the end of the year is a bit of a stretch, considering it’s predecessors barely hit $200. But OK. I’ll happily wait and see if that “math” is proven out as well.

1250. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@1249. Curious Cadet

The Hunger Games: Catching Fire pushed STID down from #8 to #9 in 2013 domestic grosses & once The Hobbit 2 is out, STID will go further down from the top 10.

1251. Curious Cadet - November 30, 2013

@1250 Ahmed,

Yes, but something has to unseat it from #10. And Phil is correct in that unless Thor earns another $50 million by Dec 31, no other films are likely to surpass $229 million, if not Thor by years end. And if Thor doesn’t have another $50 million in it domestically, then I doubt anything will unseat Trek at #10.

1252. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@ 1251. Curious Cadet – November 30, 2013

“And if Thor doesn’t have another $50 million in it domestically, then I doubt anything will unseat Trek at #10.”

Still at #10 it is lower than what ST09 achieved in 2009 when it was at
# 7

1253. Curious Cadet - November 30, 2013

@1252 Ahmed,

Yes, but there’s no question that STID had problems domestically, problems that need to be addressed in the next film, regardless of how much money it made worldwide.

Despite the fact STID will have dropped 3 or 4 spots from 2009, what’s amazing is how much lower the overall 2009 box office was. If STID finishes at #10 or 11 with $229 million, the similarly ranked film in 2009 was $209 & $198 respectively.

1254. Curious Cadet - November 30, 2013

^^^^
Oops. I just adjusted for inflation. STID would have made $205 million in 2009, so that puts it in line with #10 or 11 earnings at the box office.

1255. K-7 - November 30, 2013

Wow! :-( So much for trying to have a little humor here with you. When you “go dark,” as you did with Bob, you are certainly a bit frightening. :-(

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1248. Ahmed – November 30, 2013
@ 1219. K-7 – November 29, 2013

“My God, I wish that guy would just go away. By comparison, he makes Ahmed sound like Santa Claus.”

F**K OFF, a$$hole !

1256. K-7 - November 30, 2013

@Curious Cadet

“The idea presented here that Thor is somehow not doing very well is surprising, when compared to the ridculously positive spin that STIDs own box office received here which is why I even bother comparing them. Thor is not a billion dollar franchise, it’s not iron man, nor the Avengers, with none of their star power. It’s tracking on par domestically with Captain America, X-Men, and Hulk, and generally outpacing STIDs performance, as well as its own debut film both domestically and internationally, something STID failed to do. I would be stunned to find Disney is the least bit concerned about Thor’s spectacular box office performance.”

SITD grossed the highest total amount of any Star Trek film in history, and was the first Star Trek film in history to explode financially overseas.

So, I’m not sure what the point of your comparison to Thor is? It’s like,”so what?” I mean, compare any of the other Star Trek films to Thor and your get worse results…again, “so what?”

This is a strawman argument…it’s apples and oranges. I could take your Thor and compare it to Avatar, and make it sound like Thor kind of had a shitty financial run compared to Avatar. Would that be a meaningful comparisons? No, it would not. That would be strawman argument as well. That comparison in simply not meaningful.

1257. K-7 - November 30, 2013

@1243

“The canon I was referring to was the fact that keachick had proposed that Kirk take time off, hand the chair to Spock, and help raise David “a while,” perhaps on a research station with Carol,”

wtf? LOL

What’s next, spinoff shows like:

“The Wonder Years…Future Wonder”

“The Courtship of David Kirk’s Father”

“Ultra Modern Family”

1258. K-7 - November 30, 2013

K-7,

You forget, “Look who’s Talking 2260,” where we see dad Kirk and mommy Carol from baby David’s perspective. The series would involve family comedic elements and hi-jinks aboard the Regula One space station. We’d certainly expect a classic episode where mom and dad had to leave for a starfleet mission, and Spock and Scotty had to babysit baby David. And to provide a fan-favorite connection to TNG, Jonathon Frakes would handle voice duties for baby David.

1259. K-7 - November 30, 2013

Keachick,

Here is another one for you. We don’t see Carol in the next could of Star Trek movies, but we find out from the comics that she get’s married, has three kids, but then her husband, Captain Terell (in a brilliant Khan connection provide by Bob Orci), dies in service.

At the same time, in nuTrek 5 Kirk get’s married, but then in nuTrek 7 his wife, Marla McGyvers (in another brilliant Khan connection provide by Bob Orci), dies during the climactic scene of the movie.

This sets up the Trek movie that I think you’ve been waiting for:

“Star Trek: The Kirky Bunch”…where, locating to their new home on Regula One, the widowed Kirk and Marcus, with three kids each, must learn how to form a family, and that’s the way they become “the Kirky Bunch.”

1260. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@ 1255. K-7 – November 30, 2013

“Wow! :-( So much for trying to have a little humor here with you.”

Keep your humor for yourself, mister.

“When you “go dark,” as you did with Bob, you are certainly a bit frightening. :-(”

The Bob issue again !! Please check my advice at # 1210 to help with that issue.

1261. K-7 - November 30, 2013

“Keep your humor for yourself, mister.”

Is that suppose to intimidate me. Here is what you yourself said in defending someone who was really bothering a lot of people here recently:

“No one here, as far as I know, is appointed as Thought Police….As a liberal, I don’t entertain the idea of preventing anyone from saying what they want to say. You don’t have to like what they say, you can always just walk way.”

So what you said here only applies to other people when they don’t like what someone else says, but you get a free pass — a free pass to cuss and them and try to intimidate them into not posting comments to you anymore???

1262. K-7 - November 30, 2013

Keacick, here is my best spinoff show idea for you yet:

“Two-and-a-half Supermen.” It’s ten years from now, and nuKirk partied himself into a dismissal from Starfleet.

At the same time, Khan, was unfrozen, tried, and got off on a technicality…he married Marla, but after a messy divorce, he and his 10-year old boy moved into and expensive seaside apartment.

With both of them hurting for cash, Kirk, Khan and his some become unlikely roommates. Kirk continues his irreverent ways in this irreverent comedy, and the cats from STID make frequent guest appearances as his threesome partners. Little Khan is chubby and not yet aware of his superpowers, and so he idolizes Kirk, who has superblood himself, and who is an irresponsible father figure to him

1263. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@1261. K-7

99.9% of your comments are about the BOB INCIDENT. It is the ONLY thing that you talk about when you comment on my posts. You have no other issue to argue about, everything is related to BOB INCIDENT.

So, you are either too dumb to think of other issues to discuss or your have some psychological issue because of BOB INCIDENT. That why I urge you to see my comment #1210.

1264. K-7 - November 30, 2013

@1263

That’s all you could come up in responding to my questions for you???

Anyone here is free to examine all of my posts in this thread. Only a handful of them address your incident with Orci….you are completely manufacturing this crazy 99.9% figure of every single post of mine commenting on that. Are you using “new math” to arrive at that ridiculous number?

I doubt even 5% of my posts — one in 20 — mention this — which shows what lengths you will go to to try to prove your point here.

I got an A in 3rd grade math.

1265. K-7 - November 30, 2013

And again, you yourself said:

“No one here, as far as I know, is appointed as Thought Police….As a liberal, I don’t entertain the idea of preventing anyone from saying what they want to say. You don’t have to like what they say, you can always just walk way.”

So you meant this for all others here, but not yourself???

1266. DiscoSpock - November 30, 2013

Re: Ahmed

Guy, you did come off to the rest of us with that moral high-ground “live and let live” post about the thought police, free speech, being a liberal, etc., when we were dealing with someone else here who we didn’t like what they were saying.

K-7 can be an ass, but he certainly has a valid argument on this point.

Practice what you preach, Ahmed.

1267. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@1264. K-7

“Anyone here is free to examine all of my posts in this thread. Only a handful of them address your incident with Orci….you are completely manufacturing this crazy 99.9% figure of every single post of mine commenting on that. Are you using “new math” to arrive at that ridiculous number?”

Every comment addressed to me or mentioned me by you included mentioning the BOB INCIDENT. Even when we were discussing news about a new director, you claimed that we can’t get an A-list director because of the BOB INCIDENT.

Come up with something new to talk about.

“I got an A in 3rd grade math.”

I guess you are still in 3rd grade.

1268. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@ 1266. DiscoSpock – November 30, 2013

“K-7 can be an ass, but he certainly has a valid argument on this point.”

Care to explain to me his valid argument ?

All he talk about when he address me is BOB BOB BOB BOB, like a broken record or something!

1269. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

Upthread, we were talking about the comics & this is K-7 replies to my posts

====================================

504. K-7 – November 15, 2013

Ahmed,
You are defending the Khan comics and Orci now? Huh? Weren’t you the guy who went viral on Bob on the Internet two months back by saying:

617. K-7 – November 17, 2013

Ahmed,
Please drop the comics as canon nonsense. Me thinks you are just trying to take Bob’s side to make up for your embarrassing incident with him last summer. I count about 80% of the posts here supporting the comics not being canon.

619. K-7 – November 17, 2013

Ahmed: “Not correct, neither companies overruled what Bob said about the comics. Until they issue an statement, then you can’t just ignore what Bob said because you don’t share his view that comics are canon.”
So Ahmed, are you trying to claim here that Bob was lying publicly then when he himself said the comics were not canon, as Aurore reported above?
wtf???

768. K-7 – November 23, 2013

Ahmed,
What’s up with this, man? As usual, you are taking things completely out of context. MJ left to support Bob Orci’s leaving, and he only returned after Bob Orci changed his mind.

TrekMadeMeWonder left after nearly everyone here, including Matt Wright, grew tired of his trolling, and his admitted s-puppetry.

It’s a travesty that you would make such a comparison, but then again you are 1/2 of Orci internet incident last September. In fact, when you think about it, you are the person responsible for Orci leaving, and by extension then, it’s your fault that MJ left. So that post 1512 above by MJ is largely due to you — your public altercation with Bob forced MJ out.

====================================

In K-7 mind, it is all about the BOB INCIDENT.

1270. IDIC Lives! - November 30, 2013

K-7, I do believe you have some winning scenarios there for the keachick universe!

I suggested a nice soap opera with Jimmy and Carol in the previous thread on this site (wherein the bright idea was seriously offered that Kirk go organize the research station and play house with Carol in the next film), but I’ll spare you my brilliance. Suffice to say in my soap opera, Ariel Shaw came between Jimmy and Carol when she got pregnant too. Our Jimmy just needs to buy some condoms!

I think that one made Keachick cry, not sure–

At the time that thread happened, I was a bit sad that more people didn’t rise up in arms against making this science fiction icon James Kirk, whom we love, who travels the stars for us– into the Brady Daddy, but I battled on (hey, I am a female warrior). So I am glad you have some bright ideas on the subject now too, K-7. LOL.

I am normally liberal too (in fact, that is an under-statement), in that I certainly don’t think most things are written in stone, but I really will not put up with Trek being made into some bastion of the oral majority – sorry – moral majority.

MY Kirk mutters, “F__!” frequently. Blasphemy I know.
And he can be an arrogant SOB. Yea for him!

And, my beloved captain, you do what you always do, as McCoy said, “You give us a fighting chance to live.”

Hey, when someone can do that, they don’t need to go on diaper patrol.
Funny, but I am serious about not demolishing canon regarding Kirk’s character, and then call someone who does not like the demolishing — “arrogant.” (not to mention “malevolent”).

Trek is worth fighting for —
I really am not that arrogant, I just love Trek.

1271. Marja - November 30, 2013

“IDIC Lives!”
I feel you are arrogant. Intelligence is no excuse.

Politeness does not equal mediocrity. You were patronizing to me, and rather rude, veiled though your rudeness was by a flood of words. Don’t accuse me of mediocrity when all I ask is civility.

When Keachick is rude you call her out. I usually challenge her on it. But when you are rude it’s because you’re so intelligent. I see – you don’t suffer fools gladly, do you?

I wish people in general and people on this board would act kindly. (This includes Keachick and many others here.) I won’t bother being polite here. You don’t respect that.

It is significant that my post to you, which addressed YOUR patronizing attitude to me, was not worthy of your notice. That you dismissed me with “let it lie.”

I love Trek too, and have gone to bat for it as well. “Good Trek” is a subjective phrase, as is “Real Trek.” Get off it. You’re not the sole arbiter or defender of Trek.

IDIC may live, but it does not live in your posts.

1272. Red Dead Ryan - November 30, 2013

Ahmed,

Dude you really need to chill out. You are being an ass when people here legitimately question your behaviour, which is bordering on censorship and bullying. K-7 was merely joking and you responded angrily to him.

Please, can you just try to calm down so that we can all move on here?

1273. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@1271. Red Dead Ryan

“Please, can you just try to calm down so that we can all move on here?”

Move on ??? Hey moron, you are the one who keep talking about BOB INCIDENT in every f**king post.

If you act in civil way, I will be civil with you, but if you keep bugging me again with your sick fixation about BOB INCIDENT, then I will be very nasty in my reply to you, jacka$$

1274. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 30, 2013

Ahmed,

I agree with you that K-7 is going overboard with the Bob Incident posts. He needs to drop that nonsense, as it is getting really old and tired out.

That being said, I hope now, with you being the receiver of constant repetitive stuff like that, that you can better understand how many of us were so fatigued and disappointed when TrekMadeMeWonder returned and started doing his 911 Truther stuff all over again….when that happened, we received no support from you; in fact you chastised all of us who were complaining and lectured us all on free speech and liberal viewpoints.

I support you here on this with K-7, and the next time I try to point out someone who is engaged in trollish repetitive behavior towards me and others here, I will be expecting you to support me.

Kappish?

1275. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 30, 2013

Ahmed,

I agree with you that K-7 is going overboard with the Bob Incident posts. He needs to drop that nonsense, as it is getting really old and tired out.

That being said, I hope now, with you being the receiver of constant repetitive stuff like that, that you can better understand how many of us were so fatigued and disappointed when TrekMadeMeWonder returned and started doing his 9-11 Truther stuff all over again….when that happened, we received no support from you; in fact you chastised all of us who were complaining and lectured us all on free speech and liberal viewpoints.

I support you here on this with K-7, and the next time I try to point out someone who is engaged in trol-like repetitive behavior towards me and others here, I will be expecting you to support me.

1276. Red Dead Ryan - November 30, 2013

Ahmed,

I will gladly drop the “Bob” issue if you agree to tone it down.

Agreed?

1277. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@1274. MJ

“I support you here on this with K-7, and the next time I try to point out someone who is engaged in trol-like repetitive behavior towards me and others here, I will be expecting you to support me.”

Thanks my friend & you will have my support as well if you come across similar situations

As for TrekMadeMeWonder, I was defending just his right to come to the site. Unfortunately he went back & started his 9-11 video crusade again.

Perhaps the best thing to do is just to skip his 9-11 video comments, since he is clearly not willing to drop the topic.

1278. Dave H - November 30, 2013

Hey Ahmed,

I agree with MJ’s post above. I think you rubbed a number of us the wrong way when you defended that troll recently who I will not mention here, but now, all of a sudden it’s OK for you to whine and play the victim card. This just seems inconsistent.

Building on what MJ said, I would propose that we all support each other in not putting up with trolling attacks, be it TMMW with his 911 Truther stuff, or K-7 with the Orici thing.

Let’s all of us be consistent and support each other. Fair enough?

PS: K-7, please knock-off your baiting of Ahmed.

1279. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@ 1275. Red Dead Ryan – November 30, 2013

“Ahmed,

I will gladly drop the “Bob” issue if you agree to tone it down.

Agreed?”

Agreed. Lets consider this a new beginning & start afresh.

1280. K-7 - November 30, 2013

Ahmed, MJ,

I will not post again concerning the Bob Orci incident.

1281. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

Paul Walker Dies in Car Accident at Age 40

Paul Walker, best known for his role in the hit Fast and the Furious movies, died Saturday afternoon in a car accident in Valencia, Calif. He was 40.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/paul-walker-dies-car-accident-660798

RIP Paul Walker

1282. Ahmed - November 30, 2013

@ 1278. K-7 – November 30, 2013

“Ahmed, MJ,

I will not post again concerning the Bob Orci incident.”

Thank you!

1283. Red Dead Ryan - November 30, 2013

#1279.

Aw, man. That’s terrible news. My condolences to his family and friends.

1284. Red Dead Ryan - November 30, 2013

I really like the “Fast & Furious” movies. The only other Paul Walker movie that I saw was “Joy Ride”.

1285. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - November 30, 2013

Really sad news. He was also great in Eight Below.

1286. DiscoSpock - November 30, 2013

You heard it here first folks — based on the box numbers I am seeing this week, I project that STID will top Thor 2 for domestics box office gross receipts. This is a huge accomplish for Trek, to out-perform domestically a major Marvel release.

Congrats to Bob Orci, JJ, and Paramount — well done! And congrats as well for doubling the international box office of ST 2009.

A great financial result this year for STID…WOW !!!!!

1287. Garak's Pride - December 1, 2013

@DiscoSpock

That’s great news to hear that STID outperformed a major Marvel release this year. I was not expecting that.

1288. Marja - December 1, 2013

1284, Disco, Lucky for ST that Thor came out when it did, apparently to be in competition with some other huge release [Smaug?]… now if we can make it to Dec 31st w/ STID in 10th place we’ll be good!

Courage

1289. Captain Slow - December 1, 2013

So if Marvel can make a TV series then why can’t Star Trek?

I know CBS will always say it’s about the cost but if something like this can be done for a 30-second ad:
https://vimeo.com/69172121
Then I don’t see why a Star Trek show would have to cost a fortune. Babylon 5 was made for less than $1 million per episode.

1290. IDIC Lives! - December 1, 2013

Marja,
IDIC does not mean having a lobotomy and just loving every absurd idea which comes down the pike. Keachick asked for a reminder as to what the debate was, I had refrained in this current argument from mentioning the actual subject again until she asked what the previous argument had been all about because she “just could not remember.”

Again, you ignore the root cause of this, but then again, you are not the high and mighty judge of it all either.

Originally I had offered polite, logical points, as did others, as to why her idea, which she mentioned she might submit to Orci for the next film, was just not Trek. It snowballed because she began emotionally name-calling and would not drop it.

One really cannot send Kirk to a research station in the next film, to play house with Carol and David for a while instead of setting off on the 5 year mission (finally!), and expect everyone to be smitten with the brilliance of the idea. She can’t whine about the “F bomb” and “potty mouth” in a Victorian kind of way, without some reaction, either.

I have been and am active in human rights, environmental activism in ways you cannot dream, “the 99%” movement, and the anti-nuke movement. I am not in the “Keachick is just being Keachick” movement. I don’t think the Vulcans mean by IDIC that you have to put up with everyone and every stupid everything in the universe with a mindless, indulgent smile.

And, I am not Vulcan. I am passionate about Trek. I already am trying to put up with, not feel really upset, about the JJ universe because, well, that is all the Trek there is these days. We had just had the subject on this site about how nuKirk is so far from Kirk that we cannot see Kirk emerging. You mentioned they are all young, yada, yada, and they are all on their way to “becoming.” I hope so.

Just saying, to present an idea (that which started this all), thrown into the fray which is WAY not Kirk and FAR from canon, well, one needs to expect an equal reaction from that action. When that reaction comes, one should not begin name calling, bad adjectives, throw a verbal tantrum and on top of that, refuse to drop it. Logical debating points offered are simply ignored, she will not even refer to them.

I have an animal sanctuary, a mixed race daughter, and I have gone against the wind my entire life. You can play your little mediator game and tell me IDIC does not live in me. I do not agree, Your Honor.

1291. IDIC Lives! - December 1, 2013

Marja,
Your announcement that IDIC does not live in me, means IDIC does not live in you. That is the only conclusion we have if we accept your method of “mediating” and your far-reaching definition of “IDIC.”

Your basic approach is to hand-hold Keachick, why not just honestly be “on her side?” Admit that you have put her under your wing – why not?

You say I am arrogant. I say you are self-righteous and not entirely honest in approach.

1292. Curious Cadet - December 1, 2013

@1286. Marja,
“1284, Disco, Lucky for ST that Thor came out when it did, apparently to be in competition with some other huge release [Smaug?]… now if we can make it to Dec 31st w/ STID in 10th place we’ll be good!”

Personally, I don’t think timing had anything to do with it. Might Thor 2 be doing somewhat better had Catching Fire not opened? Perhaps. But it had its day. It’s a good movie, well received by audiences, but it’s no Iron Man.

Truth is Thor 2 is performing about as well as STID and if it continues to earn anywhere close to the current $20 million a week domestically through January 1, it will easily match STID, if not surpass it with 5 weeks to go.

But not to fear, STID was hardly the first Trek film to domestically outperform a major Marvel release. ST09 easily outperformed the original Thor, Captain America, The Hulk movies, all the X-Men movies, the Wolverine, Fantastic Four, and a dozen others. Heck even Nemesis beat some Marvel titles at the Boxoffice domestically. I guess STID could be commended for doing this while making even less at the box office? But unlike ST09, STID does have a real threat of a lesser franchise character like Thor surpassing it for the first time. For all that it matters (and it doesn’t). Something that does matter and is worth investigating in this comparison is why Marvel sequel films for the most part surpass their predecessors in domestic box office and STID failed.

Of course STID did manage to break the 50% international share box office barrier (and perform worldwide more like Marvel films), and should definitely be commended in this regard, since I believe no Trek movie had broken even 35% before. Though STID did fall $17 million short of actually doubling the foreign box office of ST09 as also misrepresented above (not an insignificant number).

Courage indeed.

1293. Ryan Huyton - December 1, 2013

THOR 2 was good, but not as good as the first. Could be another reason reason why it hasn’t done as well as other Marvel movies. Also, Thor, as a character, isn’t as interesting as either Iron Man or Captain America, or The X-Men.

1294. crazydaystrom - December 1, 2013

STID compared to Thor for me is not the for me is not significant news. It’s the performance of Gravity that fills me with hope for the future of the type of films I love most. Fingers crossed it will have a positive affect on Trek films sooner or later.

1295. crazydaystrom - December 1, 2013

um-
*…for me is not the significant…*

1296. Keachick - December 1, 2013

Actually, if memory is starting to serve, given that I have received no information as to which thread or time of its posting, I offered several possible scenarios, including the one that IDIC is so intensely focused on and angry about.

I proposed the one about Kirk and Carol being on a research station with baby, however I also had Kirk and Carol with baby on board the Enterprise. I think I wrote that in one sentence, sort of “either/or”.

Another proposal was that something happen to a new space station out there and that its commander is seriously injured (perhaps she pulls through, perhaps not) and Kirk is TEMPORARILY assigned commander of the station. With him go Carol Marcus (weapons expert) and Scotty (with some of Scotty’s engineering team). The reason – the need to investigate just what happened and to make repairs. The defensive weapons system on the station are not working properly – hence the need for Carol Marcus. Kirk and Carol may or may not be an item, she may or may not be pregnant, however we know why she is there, along with Kirk and Scotty.

I do not believe that any of these scenarios “demolish” who Kirk is – actually, far from it. The first scenario proposed (the focus of IDIC’s anger) is one I later dismissed because I did not see how it could work that well as opposed to other proposals I made. IDIC paid and pays no attention to any of this…

As a way of a genuine apology, I have found that it does pay to use a dictionary to properly confirm or otherwise what a word actually means, rather than what I thought it meant. “Malevolent” is not a good word to use as I do not believe that IDIC really intends any evil upon anyone, which is what the word means

I apologize for describing IDIC Lives and/or attitudes expressed by IDIC as “malevolent”.

Marja does not need to handhold anyone, including me.

1297. Curious Cadet - December 1, 2013

@1292. crazydaystrom,
“STID compared to Thor for me is not the for me is not [the] significant news. It’s the performance of Gravity that fills me with hope for the future of the type of films I love most.”

Gravity is probably a lot more similar to a number of favorite Star Trek episodes than the typical Summer Blockbuster fare we’ve gotten. It’s very similar to The Tholian Web. And the tone is a lot like that of CIty On The Edge of Forever. But can you see Paramount producing a Star Trek movie like that?

While I wouldn’t normally compare Thor to Star Trek, mainly because Thor is part of a larger franchise universe and pulls in a sizeable comic book audience Trek does not have, there’s something very interesting about the film comparison to STID, which I wouldn’t have noticed had Phil not said Thor was “struggling” at the box office, when it’s doing surprisingly similar business to STID. In fact, look at the demographic similarities from Boxofficemojo:
‘Thor’s audience was overwhelmingly male (62 percent), which suggests the appeal of Chris Hemsworth and Natalie Portman wasn’t enough to get many women to give the fantasy/sci-fi movie a chance. Also, 61 percent of those in attendance were over the age of 25.’ That’s very similar to STID’s demographics. And like STID, the movie scored well with 84% Rotten Tomatoes users, despite lackluster critical reviews, and similarly to STID, Boxofficemojo is predicting Thor 2 will earn $220 million. Unlike STID, Thor 2 is doing better than it’s predecessor. But Boxofficemojo also attributes this to the shot in the arm Thor 2 got from The Avengers, something Star Trek does not really have a way to capitalize on.

1298. Phil - December 1, 2013

@1295 – A point of clarity, what I said was that STID was secure in the top ten this year, that only Catching Fire and Hobbit 2 could surpass it, and that Thor would struggle to hit 200MM. I also pointed out that Thor was successful by all box office metrics. Since then, I still don’t think Thor 2 will catch STID in domestic box office, not to sure that Hobbit 2 can 230MM in business before the end of the year, but am thinking that Frozen has a shot at landing in the top ten. Regardless, STID remaining in the top ten is still a good bet at this point – at worst, it ends up at number eleven.

1299. Marja - December 1, 2013

1288 “IDIC Lives”IDIC does not mean having a lobotomy and just loving every absurd idea which comes down the pike.

I haven’t had a lobotomy. Sarcasm [flirting with insult] received and noted. I didn’t love her idea. Because I didn’t love it, was I required to react to Keachick’s fancy repeatedly?

Again, you ignore the root cause of this, but then again, you are not the high and mighty judge of it all either.

OK, your opinion about my opinion is taken. I am not a high and mighty judge, and neither are you. I have always expressed opinions on this board. Not doctrine. My opinion of using bad language to others is, we shouldn’t do that, an opinion I’ve stated numerous times, and often in times when you haven’t been participating on the board for a while.

Originally I had offered polite, logical points, as did others, as to why her idea, which she mentioned she might submit to Orci for the next film, was just not Trek. It snowballed because she began emotionally name-calling and would not drop it.

“Polite” varies, doesn’t it, b/c if your statement above about “having a lobotomy” is an example, I could see how someone might get angry. Your tone is not always “polite.” IMO. And that could be an opinion others share.

One really cannot send Kirk to a research station in the next film, to play house with Carol and David for a while instead of setting off on the 5 year mission (finally!), and expect everyone to be smitten with the brilliance of the idea. She can’t whine about the “F bomb” and “potty mouth” in a Victorian kind of way, without some reaction, either.

“… brilliance of the idea”! I don’t think Keachick ever used the term brilliant, I think that was supplied in sarcasm, was it not? I believe I said at the time that it was worthy of a fanfic, which is where one can explore interesting societal notions, and moved on. What I did find interesting was her global question of what Heroism means, in an “Is it not as heroic for a man to be a father?” Unfortunately she used the JTK and this universe of Trek to frame the idea, and that was not useful, so I just gave up. I didn’t think it was worth fighting over, because it seemed so far off base to me, I was sure it would be a brief “debate,” one that didn’t interest me, yadda yadda yadda.

I have been and am active in human rights, environmental activism in ways you cannot dream, “the 99%” movement, and the anti-nuke movement. I am not in the “Keachick is just being Keachick” movement. I don’t think the Vulcans mean by IDIC that you have to put up with everyone and every stupid everything in the universe with a mindless, indulgent smile.

I confess, I am indulgent, but mindlessness does not always accompany indulgence anymore than civility equates with mediocrity. As you care for those you love, or listen to discussions of people you like, and perhaps give them an indulgent smile, are you being mindless? Of course not! As I look at and dismiss the whims and arguments of others, am I being mindless? In your opinion, yes. In my opinion, just moving on to other things.

Do Vulcans put up with stupid things with a smile? No, I don’t imagine they do. They challenge the holder of the view. Which you did. They do it politely.

There is a feeling here of “X is just being X”, as when Bradley enjoins us to think just the same way he thinks. Some of us shrug and think “WANKER” and others join the battle; others resort to calling him a wanker on the board, and the insult exchanges begin! and can go on for weeks, to a purpose I cannot fathom.

And, I am not Vulcan. That is quite clear, from the publicly expressed passion of your posts. I am passionate about Trek. I already am trying to put up with, not feel really upset, about the JJ universe because, well, that is all the Trek there is these days.

There are quite a few folks here who’ve been upset about the “JJverse” since its inception on screen. You’re not unique there, for sure. I am not a fan of its extreme violence nor its “relentless action” which doesn’t allow for much philosophical/moral debate among the characters.

We had just had the subject on this site about how nuKirk is so far from Kirk that we cannot see Kirk emerging. You mentioned they are all young, yada, yada, and they are all on their way to “becoming.” I hope so.

Well, I hope so too! Whew! We agreed on something. I don’t agree, however, that the characters need to morph into exactly who they were in TOS. There, I’m sure, we disagree.

Just saying, to present an idea (that which started this all), thrown into the fray which is WAY not Kirk and FAR from canon, well, one needs to expect an equal reaction from that action. When that reaction comes, one should not begin name calling, bad adjectives, throw a verbal tantrum and on top of that, refuse to drop it. Logical debating points offered are simply ignored, she will not even refer to them.

I very much agree on the name calling, but name calling varies from beholder to beholder. I think the adjectives she applied to you were pretty unequivocally nasty, and uncalled for, but your uses of “having a lobotomy” and “breeding mediocrity” are insulting too.

I’ve been pretty much ignoring the whole debate, I didn’t feel it was worthy of discussion, or the outrage you’ve displayed about it. The continued outrage, if I may, concerning this idea, about which some of us just shrugged and said, “Well, there goes Keachick again with her offbeat ideas.” You and K-7 had quite the high old time yesterday with it. Whatever.

I have an animal sanctuary, a mixed race daughter, and I have gone against the wind my entire life. You can play your little mediator game and tell me IDIC does not live in me.

I am, as always, happy to hear of your devotion to animals and to your daughter. These are, however, irrelevant to this particular discussion as I said “IDIC does not live in your posts.” While you exhibit the principles of IDIC in your private life, you do not [and remember, this is IMO!] exhibit them here. To wit, your hi-jinks above with K-7. Again I say, I am expressing an opinion about your words which contrast with a fictional idea we each appear to hold in high regard, a phrase that you use in your screen name.

Was Keachick’s idea [which I personally thought was so off-the-wall as to not need more than one reply on my part] worthy of so much time and effort on yours? And continued discontentment and dissension? IMO, no, no, it was not. And as for your dropping “Your Honor,” sarcasm noted. I am not to be honored any more highly than anyone here.

Your involvement in fighting for the rights of the helpless and innocent and less fortunate are honorable and most admirable. I’ve expressed this before, and I say it again, most sincerely and with all my heart.

1300. Marja - December 1, 2013

1289, Your announcement that IDIC does not live in me, means IDIC does not live in you. That is the only conclusion we have if we accept your method of “mediating” and your far-reaching definition of “IDIC.”

Ah, I see. You are the only one who gets to define it, eh? A reminder: Everything I say here is my opinion. And I said “IDIC does not live in your posts.

Your basic approach is to hand-hold Keachick, why not just honestly be “on her side?” Admit that you have put her under your wing – why not?

I don’t have Keachick under my wing. She’s as able as you are to fight her own battles.

You say I am arrogant. I say you are self-righteous and not entirely honest in approach.

Guess you missed the first part of “intelligence is no excuse for arrogance.” Implying you are intelligent as well as arrogant. But what the hell.

Yes, I am self-righteous. Who is not?

1301. Marja - December 1, 2013

IDICLives! I went back up this board. All I said of Keachick’s argument style was, she is a piker compared with other folks. There are people on this board who swear at each other, accuse each other of drug use, and don’t even bother with four-syllable words like “malevolent” — which word I said was misguided on her part.

You seem to have taken against me there, saying I was “making excuses for her.” It was at that point, I suppose, that you might have been satisfied had I publicly taken Keachick to task in the way you had already taken her to task, when you said she was the nastiest person on the board. I was simply saying she wasn’t the nastiest one on the board by a long shot.

I wonder, do you hold her to a higher standard than you do the guys? Do you hope for more from her because she is intelligent, and another woman?

We had some pretty polite discussion, earlier, between you and me and duncan and others. Perhaps we’ll be able to again.

1302. Red Shirt Diaries - December 1, 2013

@DiscoSpock

“You heard it here first folks — based on the box numbers I am seeing this week, I project that STID will top Thor 2 for domestics box office gross receipts. This is a huge accomplish for Trek, to out-perform domestically a major Marvel release. Congrats to Bob Orci, JJ, and Paramount — well done! And congrats as well for doubling the international box office of ST 2009. A great financial result this year for STID…WOW !!!!!”

Well said. This is extremely good news regarding the financial performance of STID, and shows we have a very healthy franchise that is growing significantly across the globe.

First, in the domestic market, to outperform financially a major Marvel release is huge, and a pleasant surprise. While their was a slight letdown by the domestics performance earlier this year for STID, in retrospect now, when you see the domestic results of other sf-action movies like Thor Dark World and Pacific Rim. In this context, STID had a great domestic release in an overly crowded tent-pole year.

Secondly, STID was an unprecedented (in terms of the Star Trek franchise) mega-hit in the International market. In fact, this movie made an incredible (for Star Tek) $238M, which nearly doubled the $127M international box offic from ST-2009. By comparison, ST6- The Undiscovered Country Made made $37M international, and ST-FC made $86M international (and yes, I have adjusted these numbers for ticket price inflation ). So here, in terms of the international market, STID made about 6 times the $$ of ST6, and about triple the $$ of ST-FC. This shows INCREDIBLE GROWTH on the franchise outside of North America.

STID has cemented Star Trek as a global tent-pole franchise. This is indeed a cause for celebration for all of us here, even those who did not particularly like STID.

The next movie, if it’s at least as good as STID, should make at least $525M. If the movie is better — say as good at ST2009 — then I would expect $600M or more. Considering that the will “belt-tightening” a bit on the production costs, the next movie should like be the most profitable entry in the ST franchise — EASILY !!!!

1303. TUP - December 1, 2013

Marja, I characterized Uhura that way due to perception. She was emotional repeatedly. She was angry and giving Spock the cold shoulder repeatedly. Is it realistic? Maybe. But it’s not a strong portrayal of the only woman on the crew.

These writers can’t write strong women. It’s certainly an annoyance of mine. Far too many male writers make the female characters the nagging
Girlfriend. It’s a shame because this Uhura promised more.

1304. Keachick - December 1, 2013

I am just wondering if people know what “piker” tends to mean, especially in the USA.

Perhaps I should refrain from sharing my ideas of what the next movie COULD have in it or be about…I mean, it’s not up to me anyway, nor anyone else posting here, except Bob Orci.

I don’t want stories about war, starships being destroyed in battles, torture, shootings, beatings so what story could be told that would be interesting, amusing at times and engaging?

1305. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - December 1, 2013

@1304

My understand here (USA) is that it implies a person who wants to win so badly that they will use illegal shortcuts and a morally lazy approach to get the win.

Please “don’t shoot the messenger” here — I am just answering your question as to the USA definition.

1306. MJ -- THE GRAND RETURN !!! - December 1, 2013

@1302

“In the domestic market, to outperform financially a major Marvel release is huge, and a pleasant surprise. While their was a slight letdown by the domestics performance earlier this year for STID, in retrospect now, when you see the domestic results of other sf-action movies like Thor Dark World and Pacific Rim. In this context, STID had a great domestic release in an overly crowded tent-pole year.”

Yea, and not only that, but STID defeated Thor in the “post-Avengers” time-frame, where each Marvel movie is now a huge worldwide tent-pole event. To be able to out-duel a major post-Avengers Marvel release like this is a huge win for the Star Trek fra