New writers added to Trek 3 UPDATE: Variety says Cornish is out | TrekMovie.com
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New writers added to Trek 3 UPDATE: Variety says Cornish is out December 6, 2013

by Matt Wright , Filed under: Rumor,ST: Into Darkness Sequel , trackback

While this isn’t 100% official, The Hollywood Reporter just broke a story that says two new writers will be joining Roberto Orci in writing the 3rd Star Trek movie script. Alex Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof are out.

The new blood comes in the form of J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay. These relatively unknowns do have a relationship with Bad Robot. The pair were tapped to write the script adapting the graphic novel Boilerplate in 2011 (as yet unreleased) for Bad Robot.

payne_mckay_press_photo_a_p

That’s it though, there’s no other news on Trek 3 in the article, other than the common assumption that it’s supposed to be out in 2016 to coincide the 50th anniversary of the franchise.

The next Star Trek film is untitled and unscheduled, but Paramount and Skydance are hoping to have a film in time for the franchise to celebrate its 50th anniversary in 2016

Source: THR

UPDATE: In a throw-away line in Variety’s coverage about Payne and McKay they buried a pretty big detail. Variety now reports Joe Cornish will NOT be the next director.

Paramount and Skydance were at one point in talks with “Attack the Block” helmer Joe Cornish, but he is no longer involved.

Source: Variety

Comments

1. Agent69 - December 6, 2013

There is nothing about them on imdb. This is kind of weird.

2. Jon - December 6, 2013

Let me be the first to say “Welcome aboard!”

Please try your best to learn from the mistakes made for STID and be sure that #3 stays true to the core ideas that make Star Trek so special for so many of us including, but not limited to…statements on the human condition, a good moral conundrum, moving character moments, exploration of the truly unknown, and please, please, please do not borrow so heavily from previous films :).

My 2 cents…your mileage may vary…

3. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 6, 2013

Congratulations!

Here’s to hoping they enjoyed the many subtleties present in the original series.

4. Danny Boy - December 6, 2013

“These relatively unknowns do have a relationship with Bad Robot, the pair were tapped to write the script adapting the graphic novel Boilerplate in 2011 (as yet unreleased).”

Come on, guys. Editing–i’s not optional when it comes to articles. That’s a run-on, which is a pretty basic no-no.

5. richpit - December 6, 2013

New blood can certainly be a good thing….here’s hoping!

While I enjoyed both “Star Trek” in 2009 and “Into Darkness” in 2013, I can admit that there were problems with both. Hopefully some new writing talent can help out.

Also, I hope more hands on deck will get it ready for shooting and release in time for 2016.

6. Lawrence Boucher - December 6, 2013

JJ Abrams actually mentions them and that they’re working with Bob Orci at the end of the MTV video clip posted a few days ago.

7. Ahmed - December 6, 2013

Yeah, finally some news

8. Platitude - December 6, 2013

Hopefully an official statement from Paramount on the third film will be coming soon!

@3 – I agree with all three of your statements :)

9. c - December 6, 2013

Wellcome and go to an avatar like planet on #3, make all the action there, stay away from earth.

Its a suggestion you can do whatever you like, as for me I know I’m going to love it, cuz Into was good in this timeline that is.

And guys in your spare time lol write a pilot for TV, will yah!

10. CmdrR - December 6, 2013

Without knowing exactly who brought what to the table, I don’t want to take a random pot shot… but, I can’t help but be gladdened by the back of Lindelof.

11. Ahmed - December 6, 2013

@ 8. CmdrR – December 6, 2013

“Without knowing exactly who brought what to the table, I don’t want to take a random pot shot… but, I can’t help but be gladdened by the back of Lindelof.”

Me too, they should keep Lindelof as far as possible from ST XIII or any future Trek projects

12. Vultan - December 6, 2013

So do writers come with ‘buy one get one free’ deal now?
;-)

13. Mr. Anonymous - December 6, 2013

Right on! Some new blood to shake things up a bit.

14. Ahmed - December 6, 2013

It is interesting that these new guys are really new, their IMDB pages are blank. Whoever hired them must saw something in their unproduced scripts.

15. Gary 8.5 - December 6, 2013

JD and Patrick,
Welcome to the Party and GOOD LUCK!
I hope you stop by some time.

16. andrew - December 6, 2013

I love how these guys are announced, and the comments are already rife with unsolicited advice from professional commenters.

17. njdss4 - December 6, 2013

ST09 and STID left a lot to be desired in the writing department, so I’m glad there will be new blood for the next Trek film. The reboot has helped keep Trek alive, but at the cost of the depth of the storytelling. I REALLY hope that the next movie will be Trek’s version of the latest Bond movie, Skyfall: Getting back to basics for the 50th anniversary, reminding people why they loved it in the first place.

18. Duane Boda - December 6, 2013

Would be welcome to have a film that deals with actual exploration of new aliens –

unexplored worlds and the interaction of the primary characters aboard the ship.

No more old stories of aliens bent on vengeance or those involving time travel. A

new ship design would be welcome also. Don’t borrow from prior ST series with.

19. Michael - December 7, 2013

Why the separation of Orci and Kurtzman? Don’t they essentially write everything together?

20. Bill Peters - December 7, 2013

#18, it is the 50th it will have to have nods to the past, that is what both Bond and Doctor Who did for there 50th Anniversaries, nether was that bad, good story telling in both, I think we will get the same for Trek’s 50th.

21. Hat Rick - December 7, 2013

This seems either highly promising or highly unusual, or both. One does not usually entrust a multibillion-dollar franchise to a couple of newcomers (even if they’re associated with veterans).

However, being an optimist about Trek, I prefer to think the best of this development.

Also, all hail Matt Wright, frequent contributor to TrekMovie, and apparently the new Anthony Pascale. (Or AP 2.0.) :)

22. Nemesis4909 - December 7, 2013

I am encouraged by this news. Of course new blood doesn’t automatically mean good blood but I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I like that they’ve given the job to complete unknowns. Hooray for the little guy.

23. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

Young and seemingly untried. That’s in line with the reduced budget. Hopefully these guys are smart, talented and hungry to impress. That could make for some good storytelling. Fingers crossed.

24. Nemesis4909 - December 7, 2013

@21

crazydaystrom where did you hear about the reduced budget? I must have missed that one

25. cardassiana - December 7, 2013

well i don’t know these guys but anything different from the last installations is good for me!

26. Captain Slow - December 7, 2013

Does anyone know if they’re Star Trek fans?

27. Emperor Mike of the Alternate Empire - December 7, 2013

Young minds fresh ideas be tolerant.

28. The Keeper - December 7, 2013

This is the best possible news ever from the Star Trek camp.
Fresh new writers, while unknown could be just what the audience of old and new fans wants.
Now just let go Roberto Orci and we’re in business again.

29. Jannek - December 7, 2013

thumbs up! Good luck, guys!

30. Oscar - December 7, 2013

Disaster
Cornish, Payne and Mckay, a Jonh Doe team for a cheap movie…
STAR TREK deserves more in his 50th annyversary. There are a lot of good directors and good writers, people who know and love Star TREK.
Cornish, Mckay and Payne? This is a bad joke.
Marvel cinematic universe has Whedon.
DC has Nolan
Star wars has Abrams…
And Star Trek in his 50Th anniversary has a John Doe team ? Seriously?

31. Ciarán - December 7, 2013

Gentlemen, welcome aboard the Enterprise..!

32. Captain Slow - December 7, 2013

Bob Orci, if you’re reading this, get them to visit and comment here. People have been surprisingly positive so far.

I’m guessing based on what’s been said so far that there is an actual script in the works. Which would put them on track to shoot next year and disprove Phil’s predictions of the movie only coming out in 2018.

33. oscar - December 7, 2013

Cornish, Payne and Mckay team means this is the last trek movie and Paramount wants a cheap movie.
Nemesis recipe again,
Critics usually destroy greenies…

34. NCC-73515 - December 7, 2013

Would be good to know if they are fans or at least ‘understand’ Trek (what it should be and what not)…

35. CmdrR - December 7, 2013

Bob Orci,
If you are reading this… I for one will be looking for signs that #3 is your baby. Not a rehash of points that sell. Just go for it. We know you can handle the technical craft. Now do the story YOU have wanted to do. Make Trek 3 a tribble-Khan-free zone and let’s see where it goes.

Let’s see what’s out there!

Welcome to the new kids. Have fun. Tell a story.

Please.

36. John Gill - December 7, 2013

All I can say is, I hope they a just a bit more true to “… Exploring strange new worlds, and seeking out new life, and new civilizations…”

37. John Gill - December 7, 2013

…that should be ” they are just a bit…”

38. Jay Ley - December 7, 2013

Excellent decision for me. So what if they have limited experience, that could be a bonus as their writing will be fresh.

For me, the previous installments have suffered from trying too hard to be different, whilst insisting on paying fan service. Not unlike the Star Wars prequels in many ways;

The prequels could have been fresh, modern and exciting, whilst giving little nods to the original trilogy, whilst presenting a brand new story. Instead we were presented with Yoda, Tattoine and Sidious in the first movie! Similarly, whilst having Ambassador Spock playing a key role in the first movie was needed, I personally felt that an academy movie, with no need for time travel gimmicks and any previous characters would have been great if a ‘reboot’ was really needed. Clearly the writers of both franchises felt that creating a stand alone series of movies that could compare to the originals was an almost impossible task, without clinging to original themes and characters. Ironically this belief has been the biggest let down of both ‘revisions’ as it has felt forced and gimmicky…

I’ve accepted the 2009 installment for what it is, as I did with Phantom Menace and believe it to be a good movie, with some flaws. However I have the same contempt for Into Darkness that I had for Attack of the Clones and a profound feeling of disappointment and frustration that opportunities had been missed to move on and make the new series of movies truly outstanding and original.

Star Wars and Star Trek are similar in the fact that both franchises have their own almost tangible universe of characters, aliens and storylines. It could be argued that because of this rich history, it would be foolish to not use popular elements of this to create excitement and a feeling of familiarity to a revisited series. TNG, DS9 and VOY achieved this perfectly with cameos in the first episodes by McCoy, Picard and Quark ‘passing the torch’ as the franchise continued boldly…

Movie-wise, having Spock bless the 2009 movie was nice, but this is Kirk’s story so let Pike be our torch bearer (Star Wars 1-3 is Obi Wans story, so why have Yoda feature so prominantly, a cameo with Obi Wan would have been the perfect nod). Trek is more delicate with a longer almost 50 year history of story telling…

Having said all of this… I can’t help but feel that 2009 could have been one big torch passing movie with characters from the TOS and TNG timelines passing the franchise to Pine and co by having the Countdown comic series as the first movie, before carefully passing almost 50 years of history to a fresh young crew to have new adventures.

Let’s wrap up this missed opportunity with a clever 3rd movie that passes the torch yet again to a new TV series…

39. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

22. Nemesis4909
crazydaystrom where did you hear about the reduced budget? I must have missed that one

First heard about on this site, Nemesis. The article “Summer Box Office budget reduction – Trek 3 tidbits” November 11, 2013

The article quoted The Hollywood Reporter

“Paramount also will look to save money on another Star Trek — a franchise, but not quite in the top tier. This summer’s $190 million production Star Trek Into Darkness has earned over $462 million worldwide; its international haul has exceeded expectations at $234 million, but domestically, its $228.5 million hasn’t matched the first film…”

As I’ve said before, a reduced budget doesn’t bother me. It’s not how much money’s spent but how the money’s spent. As ever and always I have high hopes for upcoming Trek projects. And hopefully the 50th will be STELLAR!

40. oscar - December 7, 2013

Remember my words, Nemesis 2 begins
A star trek movie with a John doe team is a recipe for a economic disaster.
And if next trek movie is a disaster, it will be the last trek film.
If you want to avoid a disaster, you need gamble, you need a super team, not a John Doe team.
You can not sustitute a super director for a Jonh Doe director
And you can not sustitute two expert writers for a couple of greenies…
This is a bad thing for business. Non trekers moviegoers will say:
A new star trek movie? And directed by John…who? And who are Mckay and Payne ? Two Bad Robot`s scholarship holders?
Remember my words, Paramount wants a low profile film.

41. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

32. CmdrR
Bob Orci,
…do the story YOU have wanted to do. Make Trek 3 a tribble-Khan-free zone and let’s see where it goes.
Let’s see what’s out there!
Welcome to the new kids. Have fun. Tell a story.

Please.

Yes. YES. And YES!!

And you can respect canon without being a mindless slave to it. Just for God’s sake don’t trample all over it. Fine lines, I know, but ‘boldly go…’

Please.

42. Jim Asbury - December 7, 2013

They look awfully young, hopefully they work fast. I would not want to be in their shoes. However I’d like to emphasize that I’m sick of this endless waiting for movies. I just wish they’d pound out two or three entertaining but also thought provoking Star Trek movies in quick succession, like at the same time, and give us old Trekkies something to live for. On a conceptual level, these movies are supposed to resemble each other, thematically and visually they must be tied together by something more than just the words “Star Trek.” This iteration is J.J. Abrams vision, this third movie is supposed to be his last, I hope he can give it the attention it will need from him for it to be a successful film.

43. Curious Cadet - December 7, 2013

@ 31. NCC-73515,
“Would be good to know if they are fans or at least ‘understand’ Trek (what it should be and what not)…”

I don’t think this matters at all. The impression I get is that they work for and are controlled by Orci. They will do what he says. Unlike Lindelof and Kurtzman who can reject and gang up on him to get their way. For better or worse, we’re going to find out how good for Star Trek Orci really is. And if you want a preview of what that will look like, I’m thinking you need look no further than the IDW comics.

44. Will - December 7, 2013

Maybe this means the next movie won’t suck!

45. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@37. oscar

True that we don’t know anything about these new guys, but as others pointed out, the fact that they are young & untried might be a good thing since they will do their best to impress people with their work.

I think that we should give them a chance & welcome them.

46. Jai1138 - December 7, 2013

@ Oscar 27, 37. There are others I’d see involved in the third Abramsverse adventure (Abrams and myself — I’m a pro screenwriter and filmmaker) but I must point out, in 1982, Time After Time and the novel The 7th Per Cent Solution notwithstanding, you wouldn’t have known Nick Meyer from Adam. I didn’t and I knew everything when I was in my teens.

47. PaulB - December 7, 2013

Good luck to the writing team! May the wind be at your backs, and may you enjoy every minute of writing this Trek film! LL&P!

48. MattMcP - December 7, 2013

Great, maybe they can write a script with a new Captain Picard and turn him into a Sikh Indian from France.

49. Khan was framed! - December 7, 2013

Jeez, They should have kept Lindelof & canned Orci with Kurtzman.

Although I enjoyed both movies for what they were, Orci & Kurtzman just aren’t good writers. Their plots are predictable & unoriginal & their dialogue is static & relies on physical action to propel it, a major weakness for any screenwriter.

I can’t understand why they would keep Bob Orci on, with his track record for sequels; his poor understanding of fans has led to disappointing sequels for Trek & Transformers. It’s not enough to talk to fans, you have to understand the franchise though their eyes, which Bob just doesn’t.

If it were me, I’d have offered his job to Manny Coto after 2009.

50. MJ - December 7, 2013

Regarding below, I agree with DiscoSpock 100%. TOS showed up what an older Captain Kirk in the 23rd century would look like. Now, sure, we can allow for some variability, but in this case, William Shatner – the actor today — does not bear even a slight resemblance to Captain Kirk in The Deadly Years, as we can see for ourselves right here:

CANON — An aged Captain James T Kirk in the 23rd Century (from The Deadly Years):

http://saguisag.com/rewatch/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/kirk_deadlyyears.jpg

NON-CANON — An aged actor with the name of the William Shatner in the early 21st Century:

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/S/William-Shatner-9480789-1-402.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/22/article-1237637-07AC2DE5000005DC-425_468x691.jpg

These photos speak for themselves. The actor here obviously does not bear a close enough resemblance to the aged Kirk that we saw in CANON to be able to credibly play an aged Captain James T, Kirk in the late 23rd Century.

Again, these photos speak for themselves.

============================================
============================================

634. DiscoSpock – December 6, 2013
But, The Deadly Years IS CANON. This is how an aged Captain Kirk would look — IT’S CANON. Fat 83 year old William Shatner the actor today IS NOT CANON.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
604. Ahmed – December 6, 2013
@602. MJ

“If you don’t believe me, just go back and watch The Deadly Years again — that older version of Kirk portrayed their looks nothing like Shatner today.”

Perhaps you should have provided the makeups guys back then with a time machine, to make sure they get it right !!

When they age actors using makeups, they don’t expect the actor to actually look like that when they hit that age in real life.

Your reason doesn’t make ANY SENSE AT ALL, just my personal onion

51. MJ - December 7, 2013

I hope these very young writers do a good job, because this photo doesn’t lend a lot of confidence for me. All that’s missing with this photo is a caption of one guy saying to the other, “hey dude, surf’s up!.” :-)

52. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@ 48. MJ – December 7, 2013

“TOS showed up what an older Captain Kirk in the 23rd century would look like. Now, sure, we can allow for some variability, but in this case, William Shatner – the actor today — does not bear even a slight resemblance to Captain Kirk in The Deadly Years, as we can see for ourselves right here”

May I suggest that you submit your brilliant idea to The Screen Actors Guild (SAG). That all actors who undergo an old-age makeup must bear a resemblance to their future-self 50 years in the future or they will not be allowed to reprise their original roles.

I’m sure the SAG members will be delighted to discuss this ground-breaking idea with you !!

53. oscar - December 7, 2013

So, the 50th anniversary film will be made by a bunch of amateurs…They think ST do not deserve more…, a low profile movie…

54. Curious Cadet - December 7, 2013

Ahmed,

Here’s the thing about how Kirk aged in The Deadly Years — the canon explanation:

It was accelerated. Considering how dramatically his body changed in such a short time, his metabolism must have been cranked, burning every calorie he had to effect the massive changes. He was like a teenage boy in reverse. There was no time for Kirk to gain the gradual fat layer that an aging senior with slowing metabolism and reduced activity would have years to acquire. So there would definitely be a difference between how Kirk’s appearance would be changed if he aged normally and how it was when rapidly accelerated.

We all saw Scotty gain significant weight in the later films, something that didn’t happen in Deadly Years. So there’s canon evidence that something different was happening in The Dead Years than in the normal aging process.

55. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@53. Curious Cadet

“We all saw Scotty gain significant weight in the later films, something that didn’t happen in Deadly Years. So there’s canon evidence that something different was happening in The Dead Years than in the normal aging process.”

Agreed. This whole argument that an actor can’t play the same role because he doesn’t look the same as an aged version of himself that was made 50 years ago is so absurd & ridiculous that I can’t take it seriously at all.

Lets stop responding to this strange idea & focus on the news about the new writers.

56. CmdrR - December 7, 2013

MJ! Ahmed! DiscoSpock! Who’s been nipping into daddy’s tranya?!?!? You kids are gonna get a whippin’!

57. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

MJ
I actually both agree with you AND disagree-

It CAN be argued that the ‘Deadly Years’ ep shows what an elderly Kirk would look like just as it CAN be argued that it only showed what a young William Shatner made up to appear elderly would look like. You know, in universe explaination versus, or rather, along side real world explaination. I DO like the ‘on screen is canon’ view but the truth both are equally valid views here. And it shows how the attempt to adhere to Trek canon can go from cool nerd fun to the impractical to the (arguably) absurd. As you know there will never be 100% consensus. So we argue..

But-
I hope these very young writers do a good job, because this photo doesn’t lend a lot of confidence for me. All that’s missing with this photo is a caption of one guy saying to the other, “hey dude, surf’s up!.” :-)

L!O!L!
I thought a similar thing myself. haha!

58. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@ 50. MJ – December 7, 2013

“I hope these very young writers do a good job, because this photo doesn’t lend a lot of confidence for me.”

I believe this is the FIRST time in history where writers are judged by their photo & not by their writings !!!

59. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

53. Curious Cadet
We all saw Scotty gain significant weight in the later films, something that didn’t happen in Deadly Years. So there’s canon evidence that something different was happening in The Dead Years than in the normal aging process.

Very good point! And speaks to the potential and arguable absurdity of the canon debate. *sigh*

60. Dave H - December 7, 2013

@54

Ahmed, when the only response one has to another’s argument here is to make fun of their position, this tells me that that person really doesn’t have a leg to stand on for their own viewpoint.

This is the second time in two days you have simply made fun of MJ”s position on this? I have yet to hear any sound reasoning from you in on why MJ is wrong?

In looking at these photos, which do tell a story, I’d say that I would lean towards MJ’s argument here. Shatner today doesn’t even slightly resemble the aged Kirk from TOS-The Deadly Years. This is different from McCoy and Spock — they still looked at leas a bit like those aged characters in The Deadly Years. Even Scott, although Doohan put on some weight, still bared a reasonable facial resemblance to his aged character in The Deadly Years. But Shatner today bears barely any resemblance to his aged character in The Deadly Years, and yea, I think that does present a legitimate casting problem for considering using him again ever in Star Trek.

I like to hear something more reasonable from you here on this then just “trust me, he’s wrong” playground-like guffaws? Surely you have something more sophisticated to bring to the table than this?

61. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@ Matt Wright,

Is it possible to ask Bob to bring the new guys here & tell us more about them ?

There is literally no information about them anywhere online.

62. Driver - December 7, 2013

Star Trek 3 will be sooo Star Trek-y that no one will be able to understand it – at first. Then, only by watching it at least six more times will anybody finally get it. Then we will collectively smack our heads and proclaim “This is the Greatest Star Trek movie ever!!

63. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@59. Dave H

I really find the whole argument absurd but will ask you this

Back in the 1960s, the makeup guys aged Shatner to look like an old man, 50 years later, Shatner doesn’t look like that character & there is no facial resemblance. I will humor you & ask you, why not use the same makeup method to make Shatner look like this his old self from 50 years ago in that episode.

I would understand if you tell me there is no room for Kirk in the new movie because it doesn’t fit with the new timeline or some other reasons. But to say that actor can’t play same role because some makeup guy 50 years didn’t anticipate how the actor will really look in the future , is just dumb.

64. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

Now, Dave, how about we focus on the news about the new writers ?

65. MJ - December 7, 2013

Dave,

Thanks for bringing some reasoning to this. I agree, and I’ll be happy to respond to Ahmed on this when and if he chooses to focus on the substance of my arguments, instead of the childish hi-jinks.

BTW, I agree with the Scotty point. Here are photos from Scotty as played by Doohan from Deadly Years and from one of the latter movies:

http://www.cumberlandspaceman.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/scotty-deadly-years-star-trek-tos.jpeg

http://soentertain.me/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/james-doohan.jpg

Here, we can see, that although Scotty has put on weight, there is still a reasonable closeness in appearance of his face to the aged Scotty in Deadly Years — it’s still Scotty. This is in contrast to Shatner, who, through I guess major weight gain, plastic surgery, hair implants, whatever else?, no longer looks even remotely close to what the what the aged James T. Kirk in CANON-The Deadly Years is supposed to look like.

Thus, as I maintain, Shatner — the early 21st century actor who plays multiple fictional roles — is no longer suited to play an elder Captain James T. Kirk in the late 23rd Century. Shatner playing Kirk now would be a gross violation of CANON. Again, look at the comparison — he looks nothing like the aged Captain Kirk that we have from CANON:

CANON — An aged Captain James T Kirk in the 23rd Century (from The Deadly Years):

http://saguisag.com/rewatch/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/kirk_deadlyyears.jpg

NON-CANON — An aged actor with the name of the William Shatner in the early 21st Century:

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/S/William-Shatner-9480789-1-402.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/22/article-1237637-07AC2DE5000005DC-425_468x691.jpg

66. MJ - December 7, 2013

Ah, yes, Ahmed, if only we could all be as well behaved and kind to Trek writers as your storied history in communication with them here dictates.

;-)

57. Ahmed – December 7, 2013
@ 50. MJ – December 7, 2013

“I hope these very young writers do a good job, because this photo doesn’t lend a lot of confidence for me.”

I believe this is the FIRST time in history where writers are judged by their photo & not by their writings !!!

67. Jake - December 7, 2013

Fantastic news.

The only thing that kept STID from being my favorite Trek movie of all time was (some parts of) the script.

68. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@ 63. MJ – December 7, 2013

“Ah, yes, Ahmed, if only we could all be as well behaved and kind to Trek writers as your storied history in communication with them here dictates.”

Guess what genius, in my “storied history in communication with them” I didn’t call them hack or other names, I stated my views about the movie.

69. MJ - December 7, 2013

@66. And all I did, “genius,” was make a silly little comment about their photo, and you all over on it. You’ve got a mean-ass attitude today, and I’m not going to let you bully me.

70. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 7, 2013

Ahmed.

There is not too much to discuss, but perhaps ideas for the new writers.

Perhaps the next trek is already set. Sensibly the Klingons should launch a war against the Federation in response to the events in STiD.

I say things are going to get much darker for our heroes.

71. MJ - December 7, 2013

Thanks crazydaystom — you got my humor and the picture was a funny one of a couple of very young guys…good to see that not everyone has a burr up their ass today. LOL

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
56. crazydaystrom – December 7, 2013

But-
I hope these very young writers do a good job, because this photo doesn’t lend a lot of confidence for me. All that’s missing with this photo is a caption of one guy saying to the other, “hey dude, surf’s up!.” :-)

L!O!L!
I thought a similar thing myself. haha!

72. Red Dead Ryan - December 7, 2013

I find it interesting that Ahmed has taken it upon himself to be the site’s “behaviour police” preaching freedom of speech and respect for differing opinions –when it’s convenient for him — but on the other hand he has resorted to mocking MJ’s posts and being condescending here.

73. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@ 68. TrekMadeMeWonder – December 7, 2013

“Perhaps the next trek is already set. Sensibly the Klingons should launch a war against the Federation in response to the events in STiD.”

That is one possibility but I recall Bob saying in the “Turkey-Day Tidbits” thread that we might see the crew halfway through their 5 year mission.

” 67. boborci – December 1, 2013

next movie?
I figure we should catch them right in the middle of 5 year mission. Thoughts?”

74. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@ 70. Red Dead Ryan – December 7, 2013

“I find it interesting that Ahmed has taken it upon himself to be the site’s “behaviour police” preaching freedom of speech and respect for differing opinions –when it’s convenient for him — but on the other hand he has resorted to mocking MJ’s posts and being condescending here”

I didn’t tell him to keep his view for himself like you did to other people in the other thread.

75. Red Shirt Diaries - December 7, 2013

@MJ

Your photos certainly make an interesting and compelling case for not moving forward with utilizing Shatner again in the role of Kirk.

And when you consider the hugely embarrassing attempt at Captain Kirk that Shatner tried at the Academy Awards last year, it’s clear to me that he is no longer fit to play the part of Captain Kirk.

76. DiscoSpock - December 7, 2013

Ahmed,

I agree with MJ here. Time to call off your STID-hate clone warriors now. Your gang’s had its’s fun, now please move along…

77. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@ 74. DiscoSpock – December 7, 2013

“I agree with MJ here. ”

lol, no surprise there. I would be very surprised if you & your gang ever disagreed with each other on anything.

78. DiscoSpock - December 7, 2013

@74 This post of mine was meant for the Stellar Cartoggraphy book thread. Sorry if anyone was confused by seeing it here. I have just posted it “over there.”

79. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@74. DiscoSpock

Too bad that I replied to you before I see that you posted same comment on the other thread. I don’t like replying to drones after all

80. MJ - December 7, 2013

@Ahmed,

There you go again. You have no way to refute what I have said here, so let’s make fun of MJ and “LOL-away” people that agree with him so that we can distract people from assessing what he is actually saying.

It’s an unimaginative “low brow” strategy for not having to seriously address my points. I thought you were more sophisticated than that?

81. MJ - December 7, 2013

…and now you are name-calling people who disagree with you.

:-(

82. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@ 78. MJ – December 7, 2013

“@Ahmed,

There you go again. You have no way to refute what I have said here, so let’s make fun of MJ and “LOL-away” people that agree with him so that we can distract people from assessing what he is actually saying.”

Tell me why Bob wrote that unused Shatner scene in ST09 ?
I bet that Bob doesn’t believe in your amazing theory :)

83. MJ - December 7, 2013

@80. SURE — yes, I will tell you exactly why….

Bob is overly sentimental for Shatner like a large number of Star Trek fans are. But when JJ assessed what Shatner looked like in 2008, and the parody of Kirk that has guided his more recent Kirk performances, he said to himself — HELL NO, THIS GUY AIN’T KIRK ANYMORE.

I can’t prove this, but this is my assessment, which is an objective one, and so I conclude the JJ made the same assessment. This goes against the subjective assessment of you “Shat sentimentalists.”

Does the truth hurt sometimes? Yes, it does! But it is still the truth. He no longer looks like, nor can he credibly act, like Captain Kirk. Done deal!

84. DiscoSpock - December 7, 2013

“I bet that Bob doesn’t believe in your amazing theory :)”

Like Bob always agrees with you, guy?

(talk about pitching a fast ball right over the plate to me)

LOL — back at you!

85. MJ - December 7, 2013

@80. Sure — yes, I will tell you exactly why….

Bob is overly sentimental for Shatner like a large number of Star Trek fans are. But when JJ assessed what Shatner looked like in 2008, and the parody of Kirk that has guided his more recent Kirk performances, he said to himself — HEELL NO, THIS GUY AIN’T KIRK ANYMORE.

I can’t prove this, but this is my assessment, which is an objective one, and so I conclude the JJ made the same assessment. This goes against the subjective assessment of you “Shat sentimentalists.”

Does the truth hurt sometimes? Yes, it does! But it is still the truth. He no longer looks like, nor can he credibly act, like Captain James T. Kirk.

86. K-7 - December 7, 2013

Gotta love it when Ahmed references “agreeing with Bob” to try to prove HIS point. The irony of it — LOL^2

87. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@82. MJ

“I can’t prove this, but this is my assessment, which is an objective one, and so I conclude the JJ made the same assessment. This goes against the subjective assessment of you “Shat sentimentalists.”

Does the truth hurt sometimes? Yes, it does! But it is still the truth. He no longer looks like, nor can he credibly act, like Captain James T. Kirk.”

Your assessment is incorrect my dear, here is what Bob said about that Shatner scene:

==========================
THR: Do you guys ever write scenes into the script that you know aren’t going to be in the movie?

Orci: We wrote a scene for William Shatner at the end of the movie where Spock, played by Leonard, gives his young self, played by Zach Quinto, something he’d kept with him. And it was basically a recording of Kirk singing “Happy Birthday” to him for the last time before he went off to die in Star Trek VI.

J.J. had determined early on that he felt it might seem like it was, a) too small, and b) pandering to the fans a bit. But we wrote it anyway because as a fan you’re always trying to protect that thing where you want to be able to look fans in the eye and say, “We were ready.”

http://trekmovie.com/2011/05/01/bob-orci-shatner-scene-not-included-in-star-trek-2009-because-of-fan-pandering-poll-was-it/

==========================

88. K-7 - December 7, 2013

Gotta love it when Ahmed references “agreeing with Bob” to try to prove HIS point.

The irony of it — LOL x 10

89. Dave H - December 7, 2013

All,

Why is it so hard for some of us to admit that having William Shatner try to play Captain Kirk again is at least an open and legitimate question?

I see some credible arguments on both sides of this. It’s certainly open to debate, and I don’t think that people should just be laughing it off and name-calling to try to make this legitimate issue for discussion go away?

Why can’t we all discuss this calmly, and with some logic and facts?

90. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@ 87. Dave H – December 7, 2013

“All,
Why is it so hard for some of us to admit that having William Shatner try to play Captain Kirk again is at least an open and legitimate question?

Why can’t we all discuss this calmly, and with some logic and facts?”

Agree with you, Dave.

My view regarding this issue is as follow:

I’m not saying that William Shatner MUST be in ST XIII. What I’m saying that if there is a way for the writers to include him in the movie in a meaningful way that advance the story & respect his legacy, then I’m all for it. If it too hard to do so, then don’t include him.

91. MJ - December 7, 2013

@87. Sure, for public consumption, JJ “said that”

That supposed thought process there is just about as believable as the supposed thought process that they picked BC all along (instead of Del Toro) because they wanted to make a “terrorist affirmative action” statements.

Ahmed, you are the last guy I would have thought here who would believe everything JJ and company say at face value…come on, you practically invented not believing all of what the supreme court tells us is true???

Like I said, I can’t prove it, but I believe JJ determined that Shat was not credible for the role — I suspect that this objective assessment by JJ — which matches the assessment of those of us where who are not hung up on the “Shat-sentimentality thing” that so many of you still believe in here, is the real reason why that scene and Shatner were not in ST-2009.

Nimoy still looked the part, and hadn’t degenerated into a parody of himself over the years — so he got the ST-2009 gig alone.

92. Spectre-7 - December 7, 2013

*It’s Official!

as reported by the startrek.com official site

93. Red Dead Ryan - December 7, 2013

#91.

“Ahmed, you are the last guy I would have thought here who would believe everything JJ and company say at face value…come on, you practically invented not believing all of what the supreme court tells us is true???”

Yes, I noticed this trend as well. Ahmed’s “code of skepticism” only applies when it fits his arguments — in other words, when it’s convenient.

94. LizardGirl - December 7, 2013

Meh….wake me up when they actually write something! ^_^

95. Ahmed - December 7, 2013

@91. MJ

“Like I said, I can’t prove it, but I believe JJ determined that Shat was not credible for the role — I suspect that this objective assessment by JJ — which matches the assessment of those of us where who are not hung up on the “Shat-sentimentality thing” that so many of you still believe in here, is the real reason why that scene and Shatner were not in ST-2009. ”

How would you know that it was an “objective assessment by JJ” if you don’t have any proof whatsoever ?

“Ahmed, you are the last guy I would have thought here who would believe everything JJ and company say at face value…come on, you practically invented not believing all of what the supreme court tells us is true???”

I’ve a problem with they way they handled STID but I don’t have your magical ability to figure out their real intentions when they gave out interviews explaining any given decision.

96. Comments Caught in a Loop - December 7, 2013

Morning! Off to see the groundhog?

97. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

85. MJ
I can’t prove this, but this is my assessment, which is an objective one, and so I conclude the JJ made the same assessment.

MJ, I ask with all seriousness and sincerity – Can’t you see how HIGHLY subjective that statement is?!? It’s so subjective that it’s oxymoronic, an inherent contradiction of itself.

98. jas_montreal - December 7, 2013

I like this a lot. Finally a new direction !

99. MJ - December 7, 2013

@95 @96

1. Assess Shatner-that actor as I have don, objectively, and without sentiment, and the only possible conclusion you can some to is that he can’t play a credible James T. Kirk anymore. I think A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE AGREE WITH ME ON THIS.

2. So, I don’t see it as a big leap of faith to think that JJ came to the same conclusion. Is JJ going to go public with that, well, of course not. Of course, you have me here, since I can’t prove this. You are certainly welcome to be critical of this — of course I can expect that, because I have no proof whatsoever.

However, regarding point 1 above, I think that this conclusion can be arrived at by any objective conclusion. Look at the photo comparison, and look at the Academy Awards Kirk skit from a year ago, and then look at the piss-poor performances in Generations and Treks V and 6, and you CAN ONLY END UP BY AGREEING WITH ME ON THIS POINT.

100. MJ - December 7, 2013

“MJ, I ask with all seriousness and sincerity – Can’t you see how HIGHLY subjective that statement is?!? It’s so subjective that it’s oxymoronic, an inherent contradiction of itself.”

Nope, if I was being subjective, then I wouldn’t have been honest and said that I could not prove it.

101. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

99. MJ
But to say YOU have determined that YOU are objective is by definition subjective. In fact compound and doubly so. Then YOU used that to determine what YOU concluded was someone else’s determination!?! So there’re even more layers of subjectivity to what you said than I first pointed out.

102. Red Dead Ryan - December 7, 2013

#98.

“However, regarding point 1 above, I think that this conclusion can be arrived at by any objective conclusion. Look at the photo comparison, and look at the Academy Awards Kirk skit from a year ago, and then look at the piss-poor performances in Generations and Treks V and 6, and you CAN ONLY END UP BY AGREEING WITH ME ON THIS POINT.”

Good, sound logic. I think if you take into account of what “good acting” is, Shatner’s performances in those movies would have to be considered awful by any objective person.

There are people who want to see only what they want to see, and thus, are blinded by sentimentality.

103. Patrick Shirley - December 7, 2013

I see that the requisite Trekkie ageism is alive and flourishing. We all know that no one is capable of accomplishing anything or doing anything or thinking anything until they become geriatric, right? I suppose all of you people stayed put in your mothers basement until you were in your sixties and never did anything? Do you want new Star Trek movies or not, because they’re not going to be made by the angry old geezers at the TrekMovie retirement home.

104. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

100. crazydaystrom
99. MJ
But to say YOU have determined that YOU are objective is by definition subjective. In fact compound and doubly so. Then YOU used that to determine what YOU concluded was someone else’s determination!?! So there’re even more layers of subjectivity to what you said than I first pointed out.

Oh yeah, then you called someone else of for being ‘subjective’!?!

105. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

102. Patrick Shirley
We all know that no one is capable of accomplishing anything or doing anything or thinking anything until they become geriatric, right?

DAMNED RIGHT KIDDO!!

Do you want new Star Trek movies or not, because they’re not going to be made by the angry old geezers at the TrekMovie retirement home.

Well..uh..YOU’RE AN EMBRYO!!!

Jk. Haha

106. MJ - December 7, 2013

@103

No, however I am assuming that JJ is looking at this objectively and drawing the same conclusions I am in assessing objectively that Shat can’t play Kirk anymore.

So I have made an assumption there, and I think I admitted that? I am assuming that JJ applies the information on Shatner objectively. I think he would do that based on my read on him, but I can’t prove that — and again, I fully acknowledge that and admit that it is a weakness of my argument. By I think Ocaam’s Razor points to him coming to this conclusion based on what a bright and unsentimental guy he seems to be.

I am not sure that you understand the terms “subjective” and “objective.” If you disagree with my assumption on JJ, I get it, but I have not put forward any subjective conclusions here. Subjective conclusions don’t come with admittance of their limitations and problems — I have provided all that here.

107. K-7 - December 7, 2013

Red Dead, MJ,

You guys have nailed it. William Shatner is no longer credible to play Captain Kirk.

This is a fact, proven by examining his last few appearances as Kirk, where he cheapened the role with ‘mailed in” performances, and now validated by him frankly not looking much like Captain Kirk would be expected to look in his latter years. I hate to say it, but the poor guy looks more like Jabba the Hut these days then Captain Kirk…and it really pains me to have to prove that with this photo comparison:

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/S/William-Shatner-9480789-1-402.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Jabba_the_Hutt.png

——————————————————
101. Red Dead Ryan – December 7, 2013
#98.

“However, regarding point 1 above, I think that this conclusion can be arrived at by any objective conclusion. Look at the photo comparison, and look at the Academy Awards Kirk skit from a year ago, and then look at the piss-poor performances in Generations and Treks V and 6, and you CAN ONLY END UP BY AGREEING WITH ME ON THIS POINT.”

Good, sound logic. I think if you take into account of what “good acting” is, Shatner’s performances in those movies would have to be considered awful by any objective person.

There are people who want to see only what they want to see, and thus, are blinded by sentimentality.

108. MJ - December 7, 2013

K-7.

LOL — that is completely inappropriate dude, but you aren’t really all that far off. :-))

109. DiscoSpock - December 7, 2013

K-7, ha, ha, ha!!!

You are onto something there. Well played!!!

110. Red Shirt Diaries - December 7, 2013

#106

The funniest post this year on Trekmovie.com. LOL.

There actually is some resemblance, especially with the smiles and very wide heads. Reminds of when Conan (or is it Leno) compares photos of people with animals.

111. Red Dead Ryan - December 7, 2013

#106. K-7,

OUCH! I never noticed the resemblance before! :-)

112. Dave H - December 7, 2013

OMG,

K-7, I love the Jabba-the-Hutt vs. Willitam Shatner comparsion photos…freaking hilarious!

Yes, you are onto something there….there is certainly a humorous resemblance.

Thanks for making me almost spit out my soda here at my computer I was laughing so hard.

This is FREAKING BRILLIANT, my friend.!

113. Garak's Pride - December 7, 2013

K-7 wins the funniest Star Trek irreverent humor contest, again!

This just seems so wrong; but why then I am laughing so hard? ;-0

114. Dave H - December 7, 2013

….my stomach hurts now….LOL

115. DiscoSpock - December 7, 2013

This does have to rank up there with the funniest Star Trek posts of all time.

K-7, you should try to “go viral” with this, or do a Youtube video on it. Get in on Twitter somehow.

Matt Wright, you should post this here as a funny photo story. It might then get picked up by other sites.

116. K-7 - December 7, 2013

Thanks,everyone !!!!!

117. Red Dead Ryan - December 7, 2013

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!

Oh, how my side is splitting…….!!!!!

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!!

118. MJ - December 7, 2013

Disco,

Yes, this deserves to go viral — so funny and such and uncannily alike facial expression on Shat and Jabba.

119. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

105. MJ
Subjective conclusions don’t come with admittance of their limitations and problems — I have provided all that here.

I’ll assume you’re serious and answer you seriously MJ. Subjective is of the mind, of you. So any opinion is subjective and any limitations place on any opinion, subjective as well. In fact the very admittance of those limitations reenforces and makes MORE decided the subjectivity of those conclusions. What you made was a subjective opinion WITH an admission of their limitations and potential problems.

120. MJ - December 7, 2013

@118. My assessment of Shatner’s ability to play Kirk still in unbiased, impartial, and without sentimentality (i.e, dispassionate) that other’s here frequently show towards him. See the definition below — this mindset is how I approached my opinion on Shatner.

I will agree then when I expressed my opinions on JJ, that I can see from your POV how that might look subjective. But from my POV, that is just me MAKING AN ASSUMPTION that JJ would conduct the same sort of objective assessment of Shat that I did.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ob·jec·tiv·i·ty
ˌäbjekˈtivitē/Submit
noun
1.
the quality of being objective.
“the piece lacked any objectivity”
synonyms: impartiality, absence/lack of bias, absence/lack of prejudice, fairness, fair-mindedness, neutrality, evenhandedness, justice, open-mindedness, disinterest, detachment, dispassion, neutrality More

121. MJ - December 7, 2013

…and I should be more careful about my word usage. My comments on Shatner are based on my “objective assessment” of him, not on any opinion I have. It’s assessing his acting ability, appearance, condition, etc.

122. crazydaystrom - December 7, 2013

Yeah MJ I guess we will not agree on this but an assumption by definition is subjective. It’s fine if we don’t agree. And I think everything said here about the subject speaks very well for itself.

And

Haha! You guys are cold (subjective opinion)! The only similarity I see between those two photos are the double chins. Haha. Shape of head? No. Eyes? No. Mouth? No. Skin? No.

But you’re not the first to make the comparison because of Shatner’s weight. Someone even did it to his face on the Comedy Central Roast William Shatner. My favorite joke on that show was when a roaster said to him, “Bill. I love you but man!…you’ve let yourself boldly go! LOL!

123. dmduncan - December 7, 2013

That was tasteless. It didn’t even make me crack a smile.

124. dmduncan - December 7, 2013

So ALEX is OUT of writing the sequel???

That’s interesting.

But who the hell are these guys and what do they know about Star Trek?

Very confusing news.

125. MJ - December 7, 2013

DM,

These guys weren’t even listed on IMDB until today, with their one credit now being nu-Star Trek 3.

PS: Is it just me, or is this web site behaving funky, like it’s about ready to crash?

126. MJ - December 7, 2013

crazydaystrom,

Jabba and Shat in those photos have the same smarty-pants-looking all-knowing half-smile. It’s much more funny than just Shat having a big head.

127. MJ - December 7, 2013

Either “Game Hen” (e.g. Cornish) and the new young guys — all working with Bob — are going to give us a much better Star Trek movie, or this is going to all go down in flames in 2016.

However you want to look at this, it seems clear to me know that Bob Orci, whether planned or not, is going to be the primary creative force behind this next Star Trek movie.

128. dmduncan - December 8, 2013

I’m getting site errors when I try to post.

129. I am to Smurfy - December 8, 2013

MJ.

Serisouly dude what is your deal with the old people hate?

Shatner, Hamill, Fisher, Ford.
You have complained about their apperance for over a year now, and how they shouldnt reprise their various iconic roles because they look to old now, even though they will be reprising those roles with the characters being roughly the same age the actors are in real life.

A high number of people naturally gain weight and age signifcantly as they get older.
I hope to god you dont have someone harping on your apperance and what your appearance should indicate what you can and can not do.

Get off your high horse.

130. I am to Smurfy - December 8, 2013

Trek is a great proving ground for raw talent.
I will be excited to see what the new writers bring to the equation.

in alot of ways this reminds me of When Purvis and Wade were replaced as the writers in the Bond Franchise after several films.
Fresh blood can really be a good thing.

And thats not a knock to the ones who come before.

131. Disinvited - December 8, 2013

You’ve got me whether this is the same fellow:

http://teacher.scholastic.com/scholasticnews/indepth/bullying/bullying_news/index.asp?article=patrick

But it probably will make for a few days worth of discussion determining whether or not he his, and whether it would have any affect on the on screen “Kirk-Fu”.

132. Len C - December 8, 2013

It can be hit or miss with newbies. However, that’s exactly how it was for Ron Moore & Brannon Braga. And Nick Meyer pretty much, as mentioned above.
I think the question has to be asked also, who actually wants another trek movie? I would say most would want a return to TV.

133. Cygnus-X1 - December 8, 2013

It makes sense why Paramount would make this kind of a move —

Adding fresh talent where it is most needed, while keeping Bob, who is (I’m assuming) the most knowledgeable of the three about Trek canon.

These new writers don’t seem to have much of a track record, so I’m guessing they’re coming relatively cheap.

No idea whether these particular new writers will yield good Trek or not, but I can see the rationale for this move.

If the new guys can check Bob’s tendency to invent increasingly fantastical technology for deus-ex-machina plot events, that alone will earn their keep. And if they can tighten up the plot construction and avoid plot holes, it will be a big improvement.

Better still if the new writers avoid the Orci-Kurtzman formula of killing off sympathetic people early in the story in order to emotionally involve the audience.

Of course, these new guys could be bad. But if they are bad, they’ll most likely be bad in a new way, which would be refreshing after STID.

134. Goliath - December 8, 2013

Maybe they need the money to bring back some of the old cast for a 50th anniversary reunion…

135. Nemesis4909 - December 8, 2013

Interesting the views on Shatner. I do agree that the oscars skit last year was an embarrassment, I felt sorry for him because it was so cringeworthy.

I think that Shatner is up to the task of being Kirk again, I don’t feel that his performances as Kirk were phoned in at all. Star Trek 6 was a particular high point for me, his appearance in Generations was a bit unnecessary but even then he had some nice moments with Patrick Stewart.

Let’s not forget that the guy was gaining emmys year on year when he was on Boston Legal, he still has acting chops when he puts his mind to it. I would love to see him as Kirk one more time but that’s just me.

It would only be if the appearance was worthwhile. Nimoy’s appearance in the 2009 movie was worthwhile whereas Quinto Spock skyping Nimoy Spock in Into Darkness was not. I’d be looking for something more resembling the former.

136. Captain Slow - December 8, 2013

Until we know more, here’s how I look at it. If Paramount wanted to save money on the writing team, they would have gotten rid of Bob as well and only had these two. Also, since no one has ever heard of them they didn’t get the job because of their reputation. The only way I can see that they would have been hired is that they have some great ideas for the story. At least that’s the optimistic point of view.

The pessimistic view would be that Bob said “I couldn’t be bothered to write another movie and get yelled at by the fans. I’ll just get these two bozos I know to do it. They’ll work cheap.”

137. Oscar - December 8, 2013

Fresh talent? Where? Do they have talent? No proofs.McKay and Payne are low low profile writers. And Joe Cornish is a low profil director. So, ST 2016 will be a low profil film.
Bad Robot has a lot of good directors and writers in payroll, so why do they choose super amateurs? The facts: STAR TREK anniversary film will be made by a bunch of super amateurs. Shame.Star Trek deserves better. Stuart Baird was more pro than Cornish, Nemesis writers were more pro than John Doe brothers…ST renegades ‘ team is more pro than STAR TREK 2016′.
I want fresh blood, no super amateur blood. Paramount and Bad Robot know this is the last STAR TREK movie and they want a cheap movie, a low profile Project.They think star trek without Abrams is nothing and deserves nothing…
If amateur blood is not good for STAR WARS, DC or MARVEL cinematic universe, it is not good for STAR TREK.

138. crazydaystrom - December 8, 2013

133. Captain Slow
If Paramount wanted to save money on the writing team, they would have gotten rid of Bob as well and only had these two.

No CS, I don’t see it that way. If you want to lose weight you don’t stop eating food totally, you eat less food. Not eating at all would be drastic and dangerous. ‘Getting rid’ of the all of the experienced writers would have been drastiic as well. And potentially dangerous. That would’ve saved them more money but having Bob Orci as the ‘elder’ guidance is a great way to save money while retaining continuity of the writing. That would be the pragmatic view.

139. NCC-73515 - December 8, 2013

There is the unique chance of making an allegorical story again, with Section 31 now exposed in the form of a giant wreck in the middle of San Francisco, probably including all kinds of secret technology, developed not only with the knowledge, but also under direct control of the head of Starfleet himself.

With the international debate about how far intelligence and security organizations should go and where they need to stop, this is a very hot issue right now…

So I hope we will see the aftermath of the Vengeancegate scandal ;)

140. Oscar - December 8, 2013

135
For Roberto is more important spiderman cinematic universe than Star Trek right now…Ok, it is only my opinion but…

141. Cervantes - December 8, 2013

@ #70 TrekMadeMeWonder and #73 Ahmed –

Yeah, I agree that a ‘Klingon war with Starfleet’-type storyline is a strong contender for the next J.J.-timeline movie, possibly as a direct consequence of the events seen in STID.

And even the fact that Bob Orci hinted that the movie might actually be set sometime during the middle of the nu-crew’s ‘5-year mission’ does not rule out some kind of ‘Klingon war’ whatsoever…as we’re now supposedly in an ‘alternate timeline’ that is completely messed up from any ‘TOS Trek history’ we saw onscreen before…and where any events or characters can be re-imagined totally differently at this point onwards. (Note – in my opinion, nu-Khan still shouldn’t have been cast with a white Brit however, considering he looks TOO different to the character that ‘prime’-Spock has been seen to interact with onscreen previously…but I await the ‘comic’ explanation with interest)

Personally, I don’t particularly wish to see yet another ‘Klingon’-centric movie, but I suspect that’s what the 3rd movie will be focusing on. On the other hand, maybe an ‘all-out war between races’-storyline will seem a breath of fresh air after the 2 back-to-back ‘revenge by individuals’ plots we got so far.

Either way, I’m doubtful that we’ll be getting much in the way of my favourite kind of ‘TOS Trek’ storyline – actual ‘exploration of unknown and mysterious strange new worlds’…

I can certainly understand why the ‘current Trek powers-that-be’ might be keen to put their own personal stamp on arguably the most COMMON adversaries in ‘Trek’s’ back-history…just like they wanted to do with it’s ‘Khan’ character…and I just hope they can do it in an impactful way if they do. Sure, the ‘shoot-‘em up’ effects opportunities are bound to be spectacular for such a scenario, but I just hope these 2 new writers can help come up with some impactful, logical scripting to wrap it all up in, if so. Good luck to them both.

And just to add to the whole Shatner/’prime’-Kirk issue that continues to be batted back-and-forth throughout this thread and others – I was very disappointed that the makers of the rebooted 2009 movie didn’t conceive of a way to have properly involve Nimoy and Shatner together to hand-over to this nu-timeline crew in the first place…and my opinion will never change on that.

However…claims that the current elderly, heavy-set Shatner would not fit into this J.J.-verse due to how he was ‘made up’ differently in an earlier ‘TOS’ episode are plainly laughable. The sadly unfilmed ‘cameo’ of his ‘hologram greeting’ to ‘prime’-Spock aside, if there was still a plausible way of including him in these rebooted movies, then that would be prove to be an amazing marketing push for this franchise despite what some believe. While I certainly understand that some of you may not like Shatner or his current appearance, understand this – there are just as many fans of the franchise that would warmly welcome him onscreen again in some meaningful capacity.

Now I’m not going to speculate ‘how’ it could be done…and I’m not necessarily saying that he should even be shown to have survived post-‘Generations’ in some way (although that would be fantastic to see for some of us…), but there are certainly possibilities for his inclusion now that we’re currently into a supposedly ‘alternate timeline’…

And especially if the the current powers-that-be wished it to be so. This *is* a ‘science fiction’ franchise after all, and there’s certainly been plenty of dubious, illogical moments shown to happen in the past 2 movies alone, already…

Anyway, I’ll stick to my preferred method of looking on the original TOS series and TOS movies up to ‘The Undiscovered Country’ as occurring in a very similar but *different* universe altogether to *everything else* in the franchise (including the ‘Generations’ movie). I get less maddened that way, and look forward to seeing what J.J.-verse No. 3 brings. ;)

142. Trekboi - December 8, 2013

Please Mrs J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay
I don’t care what story you go with, just make at least some one-line/incidental reference to a gay chatacter or homosexuality in the next film so people will stop seeing it as something “cured” to reach the Stat Trek utopian future- it has been a slap in the face for years to gay Sci-Fi/Star Trek fans.
This was one of Gene Roddenbery’s last wishes for the Star Trek before he died in Next Gen’s 5th season.
In 25 years noone has had the roddenbery sized balls to do anything about it other than lip service.

143. Captain Slow - December 8, 2013

@ 135 crazydaystrom

Okay then if they wanted to save money they would only have Orci. Either way, there is a reason they were hired. And remember that the only ones who know the quality of their writing are Bad Robot. But again, that’s the optimistic point of view.

144. Captain Slow - December 8, 2013

And in another attempt to cheer everyone up, the only person who definitely wanted a Klingon war story was Lindelof. Bob Orci said once that the Klingons may not be in the movie. He wanted a sci-fi mystery. And since he’s now the head writer I’m assuming that what he says goes. So the movie will be more traditional sci-fi, with no Klingons, and the characters more like in TOS. Be happy.

145. Curious Cadet - December 8, 2013

@134. Oscar,
“The facts: STAR TREK anniversary film will be made by a bunch of super amateurs. Shame.Star Trek deserves better. Stuart Baird was more pro than Cornish, Nemesis writers were more pro than John Doe brothers…”

You’re making a strange argument considering Nemesis’ reputation. Seems like the next Star Trek will be a major hit, considering its the exact opposite formula that made Nemesis such a disaster.

146. MJB - December 8, 2013

140. Captain Slow – December 8, 2013

Sweeeet!!! You have put a smile on my face. Too much negativity on this board so it good to think positive. I’ve always said Bob Orci will deliver and now I’m even more confident.

Bob Orci –
Leave the Earth and Klingons in the Enterprise rear view mirror. Boldly go where no one has gone before!

147. Cervantes - December 8, 2013

@ #140 Captain Slow –

A ‘sci-fi mystery’ that may not have ‘Klingons’ in it eh? Well, if that proves to be the case then I’ll certainly be happier. Time will tell I guess…

On another subject, I really miss the regular ‘science’ and ‘movie’ round-up articles that used to be featured here…but here’s a great little info. vid showing the enormous scale of some objects in our (known) universe, that some of you might like. I’d love this kind of thing to be explained in the passing in a ‘Trek’ movie someday. Mind-boggling – https://www.youtube.com/embed/XE0aAZE0kp4?feature=player_embedded

148. Oscar - December 8, 2013

141
«seems like the next star movie will be a major hit»
I do not think so. A low profile director +low profile writers=low profile project=low profile budget= low profile marketing and low expectations.
Can you imagine a star wars movie made by a bunch of rookies?

Interstellar directed by Chris Nolan. Writers: Chris and Jonathan Nolan.
Star Trek 50th anniversary film, directed by errrr, Joe Cornish, writers John Doe team and Bob Orci….
Err, maybe the 50th anniversary film is Interstellar..

149. Tom - December 8, 2013

Good to see a mix of Bob and some fresh writers. Wonder what happened with Alex?

I believe they should definitely put Shatner in the conversation again along with Nimoy. Nothing extravagent. I think the hologram scene would work quite well. Not a passing of the torch, just a little character sidestory thet helps us understanfd the new characters as well as acknowledging the 50 years of these charcters existence. There have been alot of nice ideas on how to do this on this site. Some are Post Generations (Veridian 3 not resulting in Kirk Prime death in alt universe)etc. All are fun and would be a nice coda to the Prime universe. Some combination of the two(pre or post generations) could work as well. The writers could really have fun with this. Bob was definitely up for the task on 09 which is why I hope he could still use that wonderful scene plus some window dressing to tie it all in with the new movieand bring it home

150. Commodore Adams - December 8, 2013

Warning, rant proceeding.

Ive had it, I gave Orci, Kurtz and JJ my support before ST09 was out. When ST09 was out they still had my support. When STID was about to release they still had my support, but the more I watch ST09 and STID the more I realize how much Star Trek has been twisted and perverted into something vile. It is a sell out, just like news agencies and any other media, meant to manipulate and bottom line make money. Your not honouring Roddenberry, you’re doing something much more unspeakable to him. I don’t give a frack if your a writer or directory in Hollywood, lol its Hollywood, corruption and greed with a capital C and G! Im a viewer, an audience goer, we’re the ones who give up our money to see movies so you intern make money, we made you, we can break you, we are the hand that feeds you, don’t bite it!

Good riddance to Lindelof and Kurtzman, in my opinion, the gut feeling I get is that Orci understands trek where as Kurtzman and Lindelof did not and they are the ones that steered it wrong. I wish these new writers well and hopefully with new writers and a new director can get Star Trek back on path. It was just discussed on facebook but there are so many issues and the transwarp beaming came up. To beam from Earth to Qo’nos is ridiculous in the first place, using only a small device and no pad just takes it to another level. They have not even mastered the transwarp drive and now your telling me we can beam from planet to planet, why the F*CK use ships then? It is an element that should have NEVER been introduced. Just because we have a multidimensional transport device in DS9 does not mean we want a device shoved into these movie.

And all the cheesy, corny fracking one liners, just shoved into this movie, why? because you assumed it would please the fans, are those the god damned tidbits you put in to please the fans, to redo the radiation scene from TOWK. I don’t mind nods, but throwing in phrases and sentences from multiple previous movies IS NOT WHAT IS GOING TO SATISFY THE LONG TIME TREK FAN, its an insult to think we are that lowbrow and that easily amused that one liners are going to do it. The scripts are sloppy, PERIOD! Go jump of a nacelle.

My biggest issues with these movies is what the characters say. The biggest one is in STID when Kirk say “we’re at warp, he can’t catch us.” What FU*KING universe are you in, if a ship is going warp 6 and another ship is going warp 8 F&CKING right that a ship can catch up. Kirk said we are at warp, never said we’re at MAXIMUM warp. They made warp (again) too much like Star Wars. That damned blue space tunnel, I doubt people on the ship would be looking out the window during warp, who the hell wants to look at that out of the window of a ship, it would make you sick. The TV shows warp was much more elegant, black background, some streaking stars, easy on the eyes for long periods of time. The tunnel idea is more akin to transwarp or star wars hyperspace.

I am at a point where I have lost my patience, I enjoy the new movies to a certain point but they frustrate me to no end. This third movie cannot come and go soon enough. Do it, finish it, and get rid of anyone working for Bad Robot, JJ, Orci, Lindelof, Kurtzman, you are all ruining Star Trek, its time for a new production company and new people who give a damn. There are countless names in film making who would love to work on Star Trek and they are all being ignored, I would love to B!tch slap the Paramount executives, suit wearing monkeys. I am surprised Federation temporal agents have not come to stop you and fix what you have done. Yea ok w/e its making money, that does not negate the fact that its being f*cked with, its the Star Wars version of Star Trek PERIOD!

Orci, Ive supported you the past 4 years but my patience is wearing thin. We know STID was not the success Paramount was hoping for which means the third movie will receive a budget cut.

I also think its time to get rid of Michael Giacchino, my vote goes for Hans Zimmer, the music for the Dark Knight movies, Man of Steel, Inception, Gladiator, The Last Samurai, the list goes on, the best in the industry bar none! He could do wonders for Star Trek music, not to mention update the TMP theme, which I am still waiting to hear in a new movie.

151. crazydaystrom - December 8, 2013

139. Captain Slow

Yeah it’s a matter of how much money they want to save and just where and what they decide to cut to save the bucks. I’m taking the optimistic view and assuming BR is making good choices and this will be the best of their Treks.

And thanks for the positivity. Always desired. Definitely needed.

143. Cervantes
Thanks for the link. That’s a BIG star!! Yeah, depicting comic scales would be very a very cool thing to see in a Trek film. It IS part of the ‘reality’ of a spacefarer’s job everyday.

152. Harry Ballz - December 8, 2013

It would be cute to have both Shatner and Nimoy appear (in some fashion) in the next movie, as a tribute to 50 years of Star Trek.

There’s only one snag………….

William Shatner is such an attention-seeking, egotistical ham, he will probably insist on only appearing in the movie on the condition he have a substantial role in it.

JJ and the team will NEVER agree to that, and that’s where the matter ends.

Shatner should be so lucky if they offer him 30 seconds of screen time.

153. Buzz Cagney - December 8, 2013

If they can get Shat in perhaps they can call it Kirk: The Grand Return.
Or would that look just too egotistical?

154. Darkthunder - December 8, 2013

The good:

New writers, fresh take on Trek. Overall a good thing for Star Trek 3

The bad:

Completely unknown writers, without much of anything on their resume’s. Remains to be seen what they can bring to the script.

155. Harry Ballz - December 8, 2013

@148

Just a tad, Buzz. Just a tad. :>)

p.s. also, presuming they can fit him through a turbolift door.

156. James McFadden - December 8, 2013

This is good news. Maybe we could see some of the Voyager cast in Star Trek 3. Benedict Cumberbatch should dress up as Captain Data for his 40th Birthday.

157. crazydaystrom - December 8, 2013

147. Harry Ballz
William Shatner is such an attention-seeking, egotistical ham, he will probably insist on only appearing in the movie on the condition he have a substantial role in it.

Which I will always believe is the reason he wasn’t in ST09.

JJ and the team will NEVER agree to that, and that’s where the matter ends.

YUP!

158. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

@ 127. dmduncan – December 8, 2013

“I’m getting site errors when I try to post.”

I’m still getting same site errors since Friday night.

159. Matt Wright - December 8, 2013

This is the first time I’ve been able to get into the site today…. sorry guys there’s nothing we can do about the site errors, since we’re not the owners we can’t complain to the hosting company :-/

160. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

@Matt,

Thanks Matt. Hopefully they will fix the problem or Anthony will come back from wherever he is now & contact them if he still cares about the site.

161. SPOCKBOY - December 8, 2013

Hmmm.
Not sure what to think.
Fresh writers mean a fresh approach, however the fact that there are 3 writers makes me think of the old saying ” A camel, is a horse designed by committee”
One clear vision in most cases is the way to go, but I am optimistic that this will be a good thing. :)

162. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

Here are excerpts from a review of John D. Payne & Patrick McKay unproduced script “Goliath”

Part 1
===================================

Premise: When the Mycenaean army surrounds Jerusalem, a young shepherd must accept his divine destiny as king if he wants to save not only his family, but the nation of Judah. But first, he must defeat the elemental force of violence known as Goliath.

About: Goliath sold to Relativity Media back in July. I’ve never heard of the writers before, so I assume they’re tyro scribes and that this is their first big sale.

I did some poking around and learned that they were quarter-finalists in the 2005 Scriptapalooza Competition with their script, Our Man Lilburne, and that McKay was a semi-finalist in the 2006 American Zoetrope Screenplay Contest with The Halloween Party. They’re repped by Kaplan/Perrone and UTA.

Writers: John D. Payne & Patrick McKay

The title made me curious.

Did someone write a script about David and Goliath? Or just Goliath? My first thought was, “Wow, this is probably really lame.” So I cracked it open and my expectations were immediately shattered. This thing boldly opens. It feels like a movie with no credits. Just the sickening crunch of bone and a body hitting the ground and being dragged to a mass grave full of dead gladiators. There’s a scarred behemoth responsible for all these deaths, and we meet this war machine as he makes quick work of three of the ancient world’s most bloodthirsty combatants.

These writers aren’t f**king around.

In two pages, they destroyed the pre-conceived notions I had about horrible faith-based movies and the images burned into my brain from Southern-fried Sunday School and those flowery illustrated bibles and their stories therein.

It’s a trachea-extracting intro that reads like it was written by a veteran scriptwriter.

It felt like one of those cut-scenes from God of War where a Cyclops, a Heavy Metal-inspired nightmare of flesh, is just flattening men with his big club. Because of those first two pages, I was hooked.
……

I like how the script handles the origin story. It’s twisted, a hint of the supernatural melded to the motivation of revenge. It’s mythic.

163. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

@Matt,

I reposted a long post but don’t see it here. If you can access the site, please delete the duplicate post that I guess still in the moderation queue.

164. Spock's Bangs - December 8, 2013

Lawd, I come here to check out some interesting new news about the writers and all I get is the same old “MJ ” (aka Dave, Disco Spock, K-7, red shirt Diaries, grarks pride, admiral Archer’s beagle and who khows how many other identities he’s created to flock to the site at same time to “support” his position or play good cop/ bad cop..this time being the whole Shatner is fat routine) funny thing is dude, you’re not even subtle about it lol. And really don’t care, proxy server to your hearts content , i just hate to scroll and scroll through all these made up discussions to try and find any thing relevant to the article, thats about these new writers. So I guess I try again later..I gotta gets back to this crazy Detroit/ Philly game!

165. Check the Circuit - December 8, 2013

So many of these posts are ridiculous. 3 or 4 people clog up the comments with petty sniping and rigid points of view. Much of it disrespectful. The antithesis of the ideals of Star Trek.

If you’re frustrated by this too, I recently discovered screenrant.com as a way of augmenting to my visits here. I like their broader coverage and the more intelligent discourse in the comments section. You don’t have to wade through so much junk to find insightful posts. I’m not walking away from trekmovie by any stretch…just suggesting a better alternative for conversation…IMHO.

166. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

@163. Check the Circuit

“If you’re frustrated by this too, I recently discovered screenrant.com as a way of augmenting to my visits here. I like their broader coverage and the more intelligent discourse in the comments section. You don’t have to wade through so much junk to find insightful posts. I’m not walking away from trekmovie by any stretch…just suggesting a better alternative for conversation…IMHO.”

Thanks for the heads up, will check it out. It would be great to have real conversations with other fans without having someone screaming at you for not liking their movie & going through endless fights !!

167. Corylea - December 8, 2013

A good movie starts with a good script. I hope the new guys understand Star Trek, understand science fiction, and understand the characters.

I also hope they make us an adventure tale with ignorance or misunderstanding as the thing to be overcome, rather than a villain, something like “The Devil in the Dark.” Oh, and please bring back Star Trek’s optimism and positive tone — no more evil admirals and black ops, please!

168. Plum - December 8, 2013

94. LizardGirl – December 7, 2013
Meh….wake me up when they actually write something! ^_^

Disco. I find it highly odd a major production like this would accept two guys with no past. At least, none that anyone can find here or on the imdb. Hand picked by JJ Abrams might be nice, but writing a screenplay is not an easy thing to do. That’s why actual writers can often fail at it.

I’m gonna sleep with LizardGirl on this. ;p

169. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

Part 2 of “Goliath” script review

=========================

Does it work?

Indeed, it does. The pacing is that of a chase movie, and the set-pieces seem like they could belong in a Jerry Bruckheimer movie. It’s a fun read. The theme is pretty epic, familiar but universal, but what makes it shine is the execution. For someone who has read the bible, it was fun to see the writers create a sort of Old Testament primer.

My only gripe is that it lays the Joseph Campbell on pretty heavy. I mean, as a scriptreader and writer, I prefer it when this stuff is more subtle. If it’s possible for formulas to be on the nose, then stories that use prophecy as a major plot device are a prime example.

We’ve seen it a thousand times. A literal prophecy declaring that some ordinary person is going to become a hero and save the world?

C’mon! It’s familiar, which is good, but sometimes there’s too familiar! When someone in the general audience can think, “Oh, like in The Matrix?” Then you’re in too familiar territory.

In any case, Goliath seems to be in the vein of this new standard, which somehow smuggles in a perceived truth in an original story that can appeal to even the most jaded movie-goer.

It entertains first, and delivers a message second. It’ll draw in the Bible-thumping hordes and the sword-and-sandals demographic, and it’ll do so because it’s pretty fucking good action-adventure storytelling.

It’s probably more 300 than Braveheart, and script-wize, it’s more Galahad than Medieval, but Goliath will appeal to fans of all four.

It’s a blood-and-guts Bible Story Remix, so don’t be surprised if it even appeals to non-fans who get their movie recommendations from some guy brandishing a bible behind a pulpit.

http://scriptshadow.blogspot.ca/2010/09/goliath.html

=========================

What you guys think about the new guys after reading this review of their unproduced script “Goliath” ?

170. Mad Mann - December 8, 2013

I don’t get why they won’t go with writers with a more proven resume. I guess this is so JJ and Orci can control them.

171. MJ - December 8, 2013

This is a lie. I have NEVER said that Harrison Ford should not appear in the new Star Wars film…NEVER !!!!

Either apologize to me, or produce the citation on this site where I said Harrison Ford should not be in the new Star Wars movie???

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
129. I am to Smurfy – December 8, 2013
MJ.

Serisouly dude what is your deal with the old people hate?

Shatner, Hamill, Fisher, Ford.

172. MJ - December 8, 2013

@145 “Nemesis writers were more pro than John Doe brothers…”

And how did Nemesis turn out?

Whoops! ;-)

Your own point undermines your central argument, Curious Cadet. Think more carefully about the examples you pick to prove your theories next time.

173. MJ - December 8, 2013

LOL

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
153. Buzz Cagney – December 8, 2013
If they can get Shat in perhaps they can call it Kirk: The Grand Return.
Or would that look just too egotistical?

174. MJ - December 8, 2013

“It would be great to have real conversations with other fans without having someone screaming at you for not liking their movie & going through endless fights !!”

Similarly,

“It would be great to have real conversations with other fans without having someone screaming at you for liking a movie & going through endless fights !!”

:-)

175. MJ - December 8, 2013

@164 “So I guess I try again later..I gotta gets back to this crazy Detroit/ Philly game!”

Yes, please go back to your sports and stop make up shit about me. Check back in like six months, troll, OK?

176. MJ - December 8, 2013

Look at these three posts in a row by “different” posters. You don’t here me bitching about them agreeing with each other and being proxy’s for each other, yet here they are, agreeing in sequence on three consecutive posts (hardly being subtle about it, eh Check the Circuit…er…I mean, Spock’s Bangs?) about how they don’t like the message that myself and some other posters who agree with me frequently have for this site. I don’t know, maybe these three posters are all really just Ahmed???

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

164. Spock’s Bangs – December 8, 2013
Lawd, I come here to check out some interesting new news about the writers and all I get is the same old “MJ ” (aka Dave, Disco Spock, K-7, red shirt Diaries, grarks pride, admiral Archer’s beagle and who khows how many other identities he’s created to flock to the site at same time to “support” his position or play good cop/ bad cop..this time being the whole Shatner is fat routine) funny thing is dude, you’re not even subtle about it lol. And really don’t care, proxy server to your hearts content , i just hate to scroll and scroll through all these made up discussions to try and find any thing relevant to the article, thats about these new writers. So I guess I try again later..I gotta gets back to this crazy Detroit/ Philly game!

165. Check the Circuit – December 8, 2013
So many of these posts are ridiculous. 3 or 4 people clog up the comments with petty sniping and rigid points of view. Much of it disrespectful. The antithesis of the ideals of Star Trek.

If you’re frustrated by this too, I recently discovered screenrant.com as a way of augmenting to my visits here. I like their broader coverage and the more intelligent discourse in the comments section. You don’t have to wade through so much junk to find insightful posts. I’m not walking away from trekmovie by any stretch…just suggesting a better alternative for conversation…IMHO.

166. Ahmed – December 8, 2013
@163. Check the Circuit

“If you’re frustrated by this too, I recently discovered screenrant.com as a way of augmenting to my visits here. I like their broader coverage and the more intelligent discourse in the comments section. You don’t have to wade through so much junk to find insightful posts. I’m not walking away from trekmovie by any stretch…just suggesting a better alternative for conversation…IMHO.”

Thanks for the heads up, will check it out. It would be great to have real conversations with other fans without having someone screaming at you for not liking their movie & going through endless fights !!

177. Vultan - December 8, 2013

#174

I’ll second that. Screenrant is an excellent site for movie news.
io9.com and tor.com also have good movie articles.

178. dmduncan - December 8, 2013

So what I was trying to say last night before the site errors struck, was that while I endorse the principle of new blood on the writing team, I’m skeptical of the guys that were selected.

I get the impression of staff writers with no particular suitability for Star Trek.

There are several people on THIS site who would probably have been better choices for helping Bob to write the sequel.

So right now I’m experiencing the kind of ambivalence and confusion I felt when the news broke that Cumberbatch had been cast to play the same role they were looking at Benicio Del Toro for.

And they don’t seem to revisit their decisions, once they cast them in stone, so I don’t know.

A 50th anniversary Trek movie co-written by two guys with not much history in anything, who are such big fans that they don’t visit the number one place on the net where Trek commentary happens?

Other than some dubious connection to JJ, what makes them so appropriate to write anything Star Trek at all?

A very strange decision.

179. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

@176. dmduncan

“A 50th anniversary Trek movie co-written by two guys with not much history in anything, who are such big fans that they don’t visit the number one place on the net where Trek commentary happens?
Other than some dubious connection to JJ, what makes them so appropriate to write anything Star Trek at all?
A very strange decision.”

Check my comment # 162 where I posted part 1 of excerpts from a review of their unproduced script “Goliath”. The 2nd part is still stuck in moderation queue.

180. dmduncan - December 8, 2013

162. Ahmed – December 8, 2013

It’s a trachea-extracting intro that reads like it was written by a veteran scriptwriter.

***

Lol! Now I understand. After they melted our faces in STID, they’re going to crush our tracheas in the sequel.

Sounds like they’re trying to brutally kill Star Trek’s loyal fanbase.

181. dmduncan - December 8, 2013

177. Ahmed – December 8, 2013

Yeah, Ahmed, the way their work is described doesn’t fill me with confidence. Not for Star Trek. It sounds like a scene from 300.

182. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

@178. dmduncan

“Lol! Now I understand. After they melted our faces in STID, they’re going to crush our tracheas in the sequel.

Sounds like they’re trying to brutally kill Star Trek’s loyal fanbase.”

lol, I hope not.

The two critics who reviewed their script seemed impressed by them, given the fact that these guys are fresh.

183. Red Dead Ryan - December 8, 2013

It seems that Paramount is not all that enthusiastic about the next movie so they are going cheap just so that they can be done with it and move on to the next thing. I really hope this doesn’t become a cheap direct-to-dvd that puts the franchise back on ice.

184. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

@ 180. dmduncan – December 8, 2013

” Yeah, Ahmed, the way their work is described doesn’t fill me with confidence. Not for Star Trek. It sounds like a scene from 300.”

Well, the movie was supposed to be an Action/Adventure, Historical one!

The reviewer did say it was like 300 as well:

“It’s probably more 300 than Braveheart, and script-wize, it’s more Galahad than Medieval, but Goliath will appeal to fans of all four. It’s a blood-and-guts Bible Story Remix, so don’t be surprised if it even appeals to non-fans who get their movie recommendations from some guy brandishing a bible behind a pulpit.”

185. dmduncan - December 8, 2013

One of STID’s problems was that it worked very hard to do very little.

You know what happens to a car when it loses transmission fluid and the clutch plates burn out? You can put it in drive and rev your engine to the redline and the car goes nowhere.

That’s sort of how I feel about STID now. It didn’t ADVANCE from anything in ST.09. It just continued the same stuff, and it moved so fast it felt like the engine was redlining, but the movie wasn’t going anywhere new.

More JJ-sensitive writers is not what I think Star Trek needs to get back on track.

186. dmduncan - December 8, 2013

Oh screw how a script SOUNDS. Hows it going to LOOK when it’s up on screen? How is it going to FEEL sitting out there in the audience?

More of the same old pure visceral action stuff or something engaging underneath?

I’m sorry. Being a fan for so long I’d always hoped for Star Trek to find the people who can use it to break new ground, not tread behind where everyone else is going, and this news is kind of worrying. The more I hear about this decision, the more I’m concerned that Star Trek will ever get to where I’d imagined someone could take it.

187. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

@184. dmduncan

I think the script is giving us an idea about their writing, since there is nothing at all about them online.

I think it is safe to say that Bob will be in charge of ST XIII script in any case, since the newcomers will have no authority when it come to the overall picture.

I hope that they will be able to come up with new & fresh ideas that will help Bob when he starts writing the script.

188. dmduncan - December 8, 2013

@185. Ahmed – December 8, 2013

Goliath is an OLD story that they apparently gave a modern polish to.

Just like 300.

I dunno, man. This is not where I’d imagined the franchise would be going after ST.09.

Spock is so human that it’s POINTLESS to keep those ears on him.

McCoy is MIA.

And half the time Kirk is either a parody of his former self or should be in starship captain rehab.

I thought we wanted to see old characters going on new adventures, not new characters going on old adventures?

It’s gone bass ackwards.

And based on what you’ve discovered about these new guys I’m concerned, not relieved, about what they bring to the table.

189. Theatre Historian - December 8, 2013

I am excited for this because, I have known Pat since we were kids, He’s a nice guy and a talented writer.

Can not wait to see what he brings to Star Trek

190. Red Shirt Diaries - December 8, 2013

Ahmed, DM Duncan,

These are young writers without a lot of credits to their name yet. so I think we may be misleading ourselves to pick just the Goliath example and assume that all they would do would be historical-mystic stuff.

Spock’s Bangs,

Speak for yourself. I am my own man. You hardly ever post here, and when you do it is frequently bitching about others’ who you don’t like, and accusing people of things.

191. dmduncan - December 8, 2013

187. Theatre Historian – December 8, 2013

Examples? So the rest of us can know it? (I mean about the writing part, not the nice guy part).

192. All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by - December 8, 2013

William Shatner Feb.25 ,1969 a few weeks after filming the last ST episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5lTlkWPsqo

Bill talks interestingly about how he played the legendary hero of Captain James Tiberius Kirk in four different classic Star Trek episodes:

1. The Enemy Within
2. Turnabout Intruder
3. Patterns of Force
4. The Deadly Years

This mj (and apparent fake aliases) bozo reminds of Darvin.

152: Your imbecillic name cancels anything you have to say.

193. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

@ 188. Red Shirt Diaries – December 8, 2013

“Ahmed, DM Duncan,

These are young writers without a lot of credits to their name yet. so I think we may be misleading ourselves to pick just the Goliath example and assume that all they would do would be historical-mystic stuff.”

You are correct. They also wrote or were in the process of writing a script for a movie called “Boilerplate” based on the graphic novel “Boilerplate: History’s Mechanical Marvel.”. It is kinda sci-fi movie:

“The storyline: the robot Boilerplate was built in the late 19th Century to replace men in battle. The robot is depicted in the Spanish-American War and WWI, and is pictured Zelig-like in meetings with the likes of Teddy Roosevelt and Mark Twain.”

http://www.deadline.com/2011/11/paramount-bad-robot-set-scribes-for-boilerplate/

But I found only reviews about “Goliath” & not the other movie.

194. dmduncan - December 8, 2013

188. Red Shirt Diaries – December 8, 2013

Ahmed, DM Duncan,

These are young writers without a lot of credits to their name yet. so I think we may be misleading ourselves to pick just the Goliath example and assume that all they would do would be historical-mystic stuff.

***

I’m not assuming that at all. Since they’ve been hired to do Star Trek, and Star Trek is not “historical-mystic stuff,” then I know they won’t be doing that.

My concern isn’t with the content, because I don’t have any examples to go by, but the tone and style.

I mean reading that review Ahmed posted I immediately understood why they have some kind of relationship with JJ Abrams, of all people.

I’m happy JJ isn’t taking on the third movie, but we’re getting new blood that has his way of thinking?

There’s a very important difference between picking people to work for you because you like that they think like you do, and picking people who surprise you with thinking differently and coming up with good ideas that you would not have BECAUSE they think differently.

Don’t give Star Trek a transfusion using JJ’s blood type. Throw something different in there, man.

195. Hugh Hoyland - December 8, 2013

Cant find the Goliath script online. Obviously that would give a hint as to where these to writers come from. Guess I’ll keep looking.

196. Yanks - December 8, 2013

Well hey.

WELCOME ABOARD!!!

Just be original. No more rehashing old movies please.

Wish the new team the best.

197. dmduncan - December 8, 2013

Tell you what, though. I’m going to release my outline for Star Trek: A Crowning Sea of Stars. That was my working title for the idea I came up with about where I thought the sequel should have gone immediately following the events of ST.09.

I’m going to redact a line or two and figure out how to make it a PDF download.

I hope you guys will read it and let me know what you think.

I thought it was a pretty frakkin good idea that would have made an excellent followup story to settle some issues raised in ST.09, and it would have looked GREAT on screen.

198. Hugh Hoyland - December 8, 2013

194 dmduncan

Cool post it, I’ll give it a read.

199. Gary 8.5 - December 8, 2013

194. I look forward to reading that .

200. Ahmed - December 8, 2013

@194. dmduncan

Looking forward to read “Star Trek: A Crowning Sea of Stars.”.

201. Disinvited - December 9, 2013

Perhaps all this needs is some Christmas cheer?

Well wishes to all! happy New Year too!

202. Platitude - December 9, 2013

Evidently Variety is reporting that Joe Cornish is no longer in the running for Trek 3.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/notyetamovie/news/?a=91251

203. Phil - December 9, 2013

Nice to see the site is back…what happened?

204. Phil - December 9, 2013

@202. I suspect that Cornish was always a trial balloon. A little chatter to keep people interested, and not much more…

205. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

It’s Alive !

206. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@ 203. Phil – December 9, 2013

“Nice to see the site is back…what happened?”

trekmovie tweeted that it “Seems to be a problem w/recent WP update.”

207. KG - December 9, 2013

Is it just me, or do all the writers for Abrams’ version of Trek all have weird hairstyles?

208. Phil - December 9, 2013

Woo hoo…fresh meat.

If Bob is smart, he’ll ban you from reading this site. All the writers here are as good at creating screenplays as Homer Simpson is at designing cars….

If you do happen to venture forth, don’t take anything said here personally, and everyone will get along fine.

Good luck, and a masterpiece awaits…hopefully.

209. Matt Wright - December 9, 2013

@ 206 – Yes I think we have it, but not sure since it’s intermittent and we don’t have access to the web server itself to do any troubleshooting outside of the WordPress admin control panel.

210. Basement Blogger - December 9, 2013

Okay, let’s go over the scorecard here,my fellow Trekkers. Star Trek 3 (13) vs. Star Wars VII.

1. Director: Star Wars gets big time talent J.J. Abrams. Star Trek will probably get Joe Cornish. Safe to assume he will come cheap. His big film? Attack the Block. It played in a whopping sixty six theaters in the United States. Okay, I hear it’s great but since I haven’t seen it, can’t judge it. Got to go by experience here. Abrams has major TV and film credits. Cornish? One movie that very few people have seen, some “making of” documentaries and a little TV.

Score. Star Wars: One. Star Trek: Zero.

2. Writers: Star Wars gets J.J. Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan (Raiders of the Lost Ark, Body Heat). They had Oscar winner Michael Arndt. .

Star Trek gets two guys that I can’t find one credit for. J.D Payne. and Patrick McKay. I Googled them. TV shows? Can’t find any. Films? Okay, maybe something called Goliath that has not been produced and is in development. So that’s still no. Off Broadway play? High School play on YouTube? Help me here, fellow Trekkers. Here’s the best source for what they are doing from Collider.

http://collider.com/star-trek-3-roberto-orci-j-d-payne-patrick-mckay/

Okay, we still have Bob Orci. But we don’t know if he’s writing the story or how much he’s involved in putting together the screenplay. The screenplay is the most important part of the film. If it stinks, the movie will.

Based on the lopsided experienced talent in favor of Star Wars, they win this round. Oh, Bob we love you but look at Star Wars writing team and compare them to yours.

Star Wars: 2. Star Trek. Zero.

3. Budget.

It’s been reported on this site that Trek will probably have a lower budget. Disney had been buying up properties as if they want to rule the world. Oh, while Trek could not get Benicio Del Toro for Trek 2, Disney got him for Thor as the Collector. Disney is spending the money. They make the Yankees blush. This is just opinion but I predict Star Wars will have the bigger budget.

Star Wars: 3. Star Trek: Zero.

The winner. Star Wars, in the sense their fans are getting better treatment. Let me put it this way. Star Trek will have its fiftieth anniversary in 2016. That’s important. And how is Paramount treating us? Inexperienced director and no experience writers. Please correct me on the writers, Bob.

This is like having a college guy coach an NFL team with high school coaches for the Super Bowl. Are you confident with Cornish, Payne and McKay, my fellow Trekkers? Okay, Captain Kirk did say, “Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant.” ST: TSFS. But he was admonishing Scotty about the Excelsior and we know what experienced Scotty did to that ship.

The fans made Paramount and CBS a lot of money. They saved Star Trek. In my mind, Star Trek is greatest science fiction franchise. And unlike Star Wars, it is science fiction. We deserve better.

211. mr. ATOZ - December 9, 2013

Trek is losing its steam (mostly by the four year wait for a second movie), so I think new blood is good for this movie. Once Star Wars comes out, Trek will unfortunately get buried. Finish the trilogy well gentlemen.

212. Kirk1701 - December 9, 2013

I’d like to point out that Nick Meyers was largely unknown when he got the job for “Khan.” Good things can happen.

213. Stephan - December 9, 2013

Always nice to come here to get some negativity. I really need that because everything else in life is so positive which is really annoying.

214. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@210. Basement Blogger

“Star Trek gets two guys that I can’t find one credit for. J.D Payne. and Patrick McKay. I Googled them. TV shows? Can’t find any. Films? Okay, maybe something called Goliath that has not been produced and is in development. So that’s still no. Off Broadway play? High School play on YouTube? Help me here, fellow Trekkers. ”

Beside what Collider article mentioned about unproduced scripts, this is the only other information about the new writers that I found:

“I’ve never heard of the writers before, so I assume they’re tyro scribes and that this is their first big sale. I did some poking around and learned that they were quarter-finalists in the 2005 Scriptapalooza Competition with their script, Our Man Lilburne, and that McKay was a semi-finalist in the 2006 American Zoetrope Screenplay Contest with The Halloween Party.”

This is from “Goliath” script review that I came across the other day & posted it at #162 & #169

215. Len C - December 9, 2013

Joe Cornish NOT Directing.
http://ie.ign.com/articles/2013/12/09/joe-cornish-not-directing-star-trek-3

Discuss.

216. crazydaystrom - December 9, 2013

211. mr. ATOZ
Once Star Wars comes out, Trek will unfortunately get buried.

Unfortunately that is probably true, mr.

Nice to have trekmovie.com back though.

217. Curious Cadet - December 9, 2013

@187. Ahmed,
“I hope that they will be able to come up with new & fresh ideas that will help Bob when he starts writing the script.”

Albeit their beginnings as quarter-finalists in the 2005 Scriptapalooza contest seem inauspicious, keep in mind how Brannon Braga started — he was the Summer writing intern for TNG through the Television Academy’s internship program. He literally was a college student the month before, and month later he was writing Star Trek, and the rest is history. Talent does not come with a solid credits pre-requisite.

218. Curious Cadet - December 9, 2013

@187. Ahmed,
“I think it is safe to say that Bob will be in charge of ST XIII script in any case, since the newcomers will have no authority when it come to the overall picture.”

I said this back at 43. The impression I get is that they work for and are controlled by Orci. They will do what he says. Unlike Lindelof and Kurtzman who can reject and gang up on him to get their way. For better or worse, we’re going to find out how good for Star Trek Orci really is. And if you want a preview of what that will look like, I’m thinking you need look no further than the IDW comics.

219. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@ 215. Len C – December 9, 2013

“Joe Cornish NOT Directing.
http://ie.ign.com/articles/2013/12/09/joe-cornish-not-directing-star-trek-3

Discuss.”

They should hire either Rupert Wyatt or Alex Proyas & get this thing rolling.

220. Thorny - December 9, 2013

Just as an aside, that these guys appear to have little history does not mean they can’t have a good story. Remember, that’s how TNG got “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, widely regarded as one of TNG’s finest hours.

Perhaps they pitched an idea to Abrams & Co., who liked it enough to sign them?

221. Basement Blogger - December 9, 2013

@ 214

Thanks Ahmed.

Um… that news does not bring me any confidence. Let me get this straight. These guys were quarter and semi finalists in screenplay writing contests almost nine and eight years ago. And Star Wars had Oscar winner Michael Arndt who wrote the fantastic “Little Miss Sunshine.” I mean did Disney ask guys with no resume to pen Star Wars? Star Wars wins again.

I’m sorry, these guys could be the next Shakespeares but we need some look at their work. Otherwise, this is like I said, it’s like putting high school coaches as your offensive and defensive coordinators for the Super Bowl.

222. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@217. Curious Cadet

“Talent does not come with a solid credits pre-requisite.”

True, Ron Moore got into TNG by submitting a spec script while he was on a set tour ! It took months for the script to be approved but this is how he started his career with Star Trek.

Hopefully the new young writers will turn out ok.

223. T'cal - December 9, 2013

I have to wonder what they said to put them at the top of the heap of potential writers for the next film. It had to be impressive… to somebody…

224. Silvereyes - December 9, 2013

@ 192

“This mj (and apparent fake aliases) bozo reminds of Darvin.

152: Your imbecillic name cancels anything you have to say.”

Your utter rudeness, self-righteous stupidity cancels anything you have to say.

225. Phil - December 9, 2013

Hey, for every world class surgeon out there (or world class anything), someone (something) had to be their ‘first’. We don’t know if Orci is doing the lion’s share of the work, supervising, or whatever – I’m assuming they presented something that impressed Bad Robot enough that they saw the need to bring them on. A resume isn’t necessarily a guarantee of success, if it was John Logan would have had another Oscar for Nemesis. The idea that those without a Spielberg-type resume need not apply is just hubris.

While we are at it, can he shelve the talk about Trek purity tests? Some fresh ideas pumped into the franchise can only help it at this point. Even in the new universe Trek is so straightjacketed by formula (canon) now that you can almost predict how the next movie will unfold – anyone up for some DigitalFilms?

226. crazydaystrom - December 9, 2013

It just boggles my mind how slow coming and scant the news about the next movie. It would be less frustrating if I wasn’t hearing so much about other projects from other studios. And some of the plans are long-range ones. Disney/ Marvel have their ducks in a row, as it were. And Warner/DC seem to be really getting their act together as well. But Paramount/CBS? Star Trek has to be more important to them than it seems to be. And you’d think the 50th would mean to them, if nothing else, $$$! I suppose there will one day be an explosion of news and we’ll all be giddy with speculation and anticipation.

And doubt and angst and criticism… :-(

227. crazydaystrom - December 9, 2013

I do not know if there’s truth to the sock puppetry accusation but if MJ’s ‘gang’ is a’ gang of one’ that sure would explain a lot. QUITE a lot!

228. Basement Blogger - December 9, 2013

A few things here…

@ 217

Curious Cadet,

Brannon Braga was not given the task of writing a screenplay for a tentpole movie right out of college. Yes, he was an intern at TNG. Worked on scripts then penned some. He built up a body of work. Then in 1992-3, he was given the task of writing Generations.

The above guys do not have the body of work that Braga had before he was asked to write for a big budget movie.

@ 220

Thorny,

You are correct, a great idea can come from anywhere. “Yesterday’s Enterprise” started out as spec script by Trent Ganino. By the way, did Payne and McKay submit a Star Trek spec script that wowed Bad Robot? We don’t know. As for “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, Ganion’s script underwent changes by many of the established writers who added to it. The teleplay was by

Ira Steven Behr
Richard Manning
Hans Beimler
Ronald D. Moore

Ganino was given story credit but not teleplay credit. Link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesterday's_Enterprise#Writing

As I have pointed out above, we’re talking about writing for a television episode versus writing for a big budget film. . The difference being that the stakes are much higher for the movie since one, it’s got a big budget.and the need to make a profit. If the screenplay stinks, then the movie stinks. It will probably affect the box office. Could a terrible movie hurt the franchise? Anyone see Lost in Space Two with Matt LeBlanc? Two, it’s the fiftieth anniversary. On the other hand, if a TV episode fails, it’s just one clunker. TNG survived Shades of Gray.

We need to ask, “Are we being treated with the same respect that Star Wars fans are?” Did Disney get a cheap director and no name writers? Do you believe the fiftieth anniversary of Star Trek is special? If you do, shouldn’t that special accomplishment be celebrated by some equally special talent?

229. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

It has nothing to do with their lack of credentials. In fact I think it’s admirable to give new people who don’t have much of a record a shot.

So for me what it has to do with is that what seems to impress others about them, on the scant material that is available about them, isn’t impressing me.

Neither of the two items that they are mentioned in connection with is “original.” Not Goliath. Not Boilerplate. And the reviewer made the Goliath script sound like 300.

And when I think great Star Trek movie, I DON’T think 300. That is, I don’t think what some people might call “magnificent” violence. And I don’t think of something that only engages your eyeballs.

Bob Orci is probably the best reboot artist out there. So is that what they need more of? More rebootists?

How about new guys who come up with NEW stories instead of rebooting OLD stuff?

How about COMPLEMENTING rather than DUPLICATING the skills that Bob brings to the franchise?

At some point you have to stop mining Star Trek’s past cinematic glory for new material.

So Is there ANYthing out there that indicates the things these new guys like and the stories they tell other than Goliath and Boilerplate, neither of which are original? Is there anything UNIQUE about them or the way they think? Any fiction? Short stories? How could you love writing and not have produced at least a short story or two that shows people how you think?

Odds bodkins!, it sounds like the prize for two fellas who just won a reality TV show about screenwriting is getting to cowrite Star Trek!

I recognize the feeling I’m getting. The feeling of witnessing more whim-based than logic-based decision making.

So is what these guys can do going to be the new secret? We find out at the theater, when Star Trek crushes our tracheas, that we’d have preferred out tracheas were left intact?

I’m sorry guys…or, to quote Han Solo: “I got a baaad feeling about this.”

230. MJ - December 9, 2013

Wonderful,

More people who hardly ever post here, but when they do finally, it’s always to either offer something negative to the discussion, or to name-call and accuse people of things…..

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
224. Silvereyes – December 9, 2013
@ 192

“This mj (and apparent fake aliases) bozo reminds of Darvin.

152: Your imbecillic name cancels anything you have to say.”

Your utter rudeness, self-righteous stupidity cancels anything you have to say.

231. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

228. Basement Blogger – December 9, 2013

I agree.

232. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

And are these guys going to Bob Orci yes-men?

They are brand new guys looking for shot.

Are they secretly going to sense what Bob likes and doesn’t like and avoid telling him what he doesn’t like, even if Bob needs to hear it to make the best movie possible?

What kind of LIFE experience do they have that will help them not fall into that trap?

233. MJ - December 9, 2013

@210 / Basement Blogger

A little problem with the scoring system is that STID had both the same director, plus a lot of budget, and I don’t see even those of us like, who liked STID, are super-happy about the film.

And I hardly think that if Trek 2106’s budget gets cut to say $150M, from $190 for STID, that it is fair for that still very expensive budget to get rated a 0. A zero would be like if they went bare bones and did it for $75M.

234. MJ - December 9, 2013

Yea, this just points out that we don’ know much about these guys at at all. I’d hate to think that these guys are there to take directions from a too busy Bob to write a Bob-Orci-like screenplay for Trek 2016 because Bob just doesn’t have the time to devote to it given his other commitments.

Oh, wait a minute, you are suppose to be me, right — you are my supposed sock-puppet right? Because Spock’s Bangs and his sock-puppets, including Silvereyes, say so, right? LOL
____________________________

@ 188. Red Shirt Diaries – December 8, 2013

“Ahmed, DM Duncan,

These are young writers without a lot of credits to their name yet. so I think we may be misleading ourselves to pick just the Goliath example and assume that all they would do would be historical-mystic stuff.”

235. MJ - December 9, 2013

Just for the heck of it, I did an internet search of “Trekmovie.com” and “Silvereyes,” which returned a long list of Silvereyes posts from this site. I picked the first four, and all four were negative, and included the following:

“Give us actual ST news or get off the Web.”

“this kind of arrogance on your part is uncalled for.”

“you don’t know what you’re talking about”

“Who cares what self-impressed freaks think of Star Trek”

This kind of negative, attack-mode, in-your-face drivel is what Silvereyes specializes in here. I you like negativity, unsubstantiated attacks, and mean-spriritedness, Silvereyes is for you.

Harrr Ballz, sorry man, but while I could take Silvereye’s personal attack on me, I couldn’t let his personal attack on you slide without responding, my friend.

236. MJ - December 9, 2013

You have a new name here, but you so very, very obviously know who I am and want to make your little juvenile slam against me here.

Here’s a thought — how about growing a set of balls, and debating me here with your regular name like a REAL MAN would???

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
192. All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by – December 8, 2013
William Shatner Feb.25 ,1969 a few weeks after filming the last ST episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5lTlkWPsqo

Bill talks interestingly about how he played the legendary hero of Captain James Tiberius Kirk in four different classic Star Trek episodes:

1. The Enemy Within
2. Turnabout Intruder
3. Patterns of Force
4. The Deadly Years

This mj (and apparent fake aliases) bozo reminds of Darvin.

237. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

Heck, man, this is not even CLOSE to a Nick Meyer type thing. Meyer was a published author of fiction and he was nominated for an Emmy and an Oscar for his writing before he ever got to Star Trek, and it shows in his narrative contributions to Star Trek.

Are we watching a Hail Mary pass here? Are things in disarray behind the scenes?

238. MJ - December 9, 2013

Man, if they could bring in Jonathan Nolan still to direct, with Orci and these two young writers — NOW THAT WOULD BE COOL !!!

239. MJ - December 9, 2013

@237. Agree completely, DM — you beat me to it. Plus he had done that Sherlock Holmes film as well. He was not a greenhorn, like these two guys are.

240. Curious Cadet - December 9, 2013

@228. Basement Blogger,
“The above guys do not have the body of work that Braga had before he was asked to write for a big budget movie.”

Doesn’t matter. A good story is a good story regardless of the medium. There were some fine stories written for television that would easily rival that of STID. Braga was also not the head writer when he was hired. Neither are these guys.

If your point is that the writer of a major motion picture can’t be good his first time out, I suggest you Google Shane Black.

241. MJ - December 9, 2013

“Are we watching a Hail Mary pass here? Are things in disarray behind the scenes?”

No, I think what we are seeing is Bob moving into the power vacuum created by JJ’s departure. Bob, even though he won’t direct, will likely be JJ’s assigned leader for ST-2016, and I bet that he picked these two writers to flesh out a story concept that he has in mind — and make sure this screenplay moves forward given all of Bob’s other commitments.

Bob has taken over, in my opinion. Whether that is a good or bad thing, only opening night at the next movie will tell us.

242. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

240. Curious Cadet – December 9, 2013

If your point is that the writer of a major motion picture can’t be good his first time out, I suggest you Google Shane Black.

***

That’s very true, but having a relationship with JJ Abrams (JJ favoring those whose work resembles his own?) and turning in a Goliath script that reads like 300 doesn’t create the impression that we’re dealing with the next greatest first-time talents since Orson Welles, either.

These guys may end up having a long Hollywood career, but again the question is, why are they right for STAR TREK? They sound like they’re more suited to a JJ version of Star Wars—which, by the way, JJ IS NOT HAVING THEM WORK ON, DESPITE THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.

So what is this? Star Trek gets JJ’s leavings?

243. MJ - December 9, 2013

@240

I don’t think a few episodes of TNG is frankly all that impressive. These guys are at least on par with Bragga — completing two motion picture screenplays certainly is equivalent to doing a few TNG TV episodes….and it’s not like Bragga ever did anything all that memorable in Star Trek???

No, I think the Bragga comparison, unlike the Nick Meyer one, is a really good one to make here.

244. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

241. MJ – December 9, 2013

Not just JJ, but ALEX is gone. That’s bizarre. Are they just taking on so much work that they can’t work on it all together anymore?

And how is that a good sign for Star Trek when it makes them do something like this?

I dunno, man. This is strange.

245. MJ - December 9, 2013

@244. It’s a crap shoot at this point…who knows how this will turn out?

246. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@ 244. dmduncan – December 9, 2013

“Not just JJ, but ALEX is gone. That’s bizarre. Are they just taking on so much work that they can’t work on it all together anymore?”

Yep, according to startrek.com report

“Alex Kurtzman, Orci’s longtime writing partner, will not be involved, concentrating instead on the tandem’s other in-the-works films and shows.”

http://www.startrek.com/article/next-star-trek-films-writers-revealed

The price of success !

247. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@ 241. MJ – December 9, 2013

“No, I think what we are seeing is Bob moving into the power vacuum created by JJ’s departure. Bob, even though he won’t direct, will likely be JJ’s assigned leader for ST-2016, and I bet that he picked these two writers to flesh out a story concept that he has in mind — and make sure this screenplay moves forward given all of Bob’s other commitments.”

Agreed, it sure looks that way to me as well.

248. Dave H - December 9, 2013

Guys, I actually am more optimistic about the script. I think we will get less of the non-stop action and sex appeal stuff that JJ likes, and less of the dumb-ass stuff that Lindelof interjects.

Additional by subtraction….

249. Dave H - December 9, 2013

Re: Spock’s Bangs (#164)

“Lawd, I come here to check out some interesting new news about the writers and all I get is the same old “MJ ” (aka Dave, Disco Spock, K-7, red shirt Diaries, grarks pride, admiral Archer’s beagle and who khows how many other identities he’s created to flock to the site at same time to “support” his position or play good cop/ bad cop..this time being the whole Shatner is fat routine) funny thing is dude, you’re not even subtle about it lol. And really don’t care, proxy server to your hearts content , i just hate to scroll and scroll through all these made up discussions to try and find any thing relevant to the article, thats about these new writers. So I guess I try again later..I gotta gets back to this crazy Detroit/ Philly game!”

First of all, what is the heck is this “Lawd” nonsense. Are you posting from a bayou or something?

And secondly,

Go back to your football game and never come back here, troll.

I’d respond to your content if there was anything intelligible that was worth me responding to.

“Lawd” Really? Really?

250. Dave H - December 9, 2013

Re: Spock’s Bangs (#164)

“Lawd, I come here to check out some interesting new news about the writers and all I get is the same old “MJ ” (aka Dave, Disco Spock, K-7, red shirt Diaries, grarks pride, admiral Archer’s beagle and who khows how many other identities he’s created to flock to the site at same time to “support” his position or play good cop/ bad cop..this time being the whole Shatner is fat routine) funny thing is dude, you’re not even subtle about it lol. And really don’t care, proxy server to your hearts content , i just hate to scroll and scroll through all these made up discussions to try and find any thing relevant to the article, thats about these new writers. So I guess I try again later..I gotta gets back to this crazy Detroit/ Philly game!”

First of all, what is the heck is this “Lawd” nonsense. Are you posting from a bayou or something?

And secondly,

Go back to your football game and never come back here, trooll.

I’d respond to your content if there was anything intelligible that was worth me responding to.

“Lawd” Really? Really?

251. DonDonP1 - December 9, 2013

Welcome to the “Star Trek XIII” production team, JD and Patrick. May you both live long and prosper.

252. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

246. Ahmed – December 9, 2013

The price of success !

***

Is your soul?

253. K-7 - December 9, 2013

Dave,

Don’t let that gutter trash, Spock’s Bangs get to you. Remember, that was the guy that was bragging about his multiple sex partners, including all-guy threesomes, just last week.

That guy is seedy and sick.

254. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

This time I think I’m going to opt for the potentiality of being joyously surprised rather than being shockingly disappointed.

STID was a good movie, but it was below what a sequel could have been, given what ST.09 was and made possible.

Therefore, my comments will be more skeptical than they were while STID was being made.

If the movie comes out great, I will be happy to once again defend it the way I did ST.09—assuming it even needs defending.

One piece of advice I would like to give them is to PLEASE second guess yourselves. Really, it’s okay. You are not savants whose first decisions and gut instincts are always right. STID plays like a movie that could have been enormously improved by decisions that were revisited and changed.

So learn from the greats. Francis Copolla was often confused and unsure of what he was doing on Apocalypse Now. He was making himself nuts. The film was a personal journey for him, not ONE frakkin JOB squeezed between 9 others.

So to Bob, Payne, and McKay:

May you AGONIZE over the scenes you write. May you rewrite a sentence 40 times before it sounds good. I hope this movie is your bootcamp, your crucible. May it push you into territory you feared, using intellectual powers that you never suspected even existed in latency within you. May you all find yourselves in a madness of discomfort and uncertainty that produces a vision, rather than a product.

In short, I hope all three of you lucky wankers write a movie SO good that you will never get a job writing crap again—even if that means you never get another job.

255. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@ 251. dmduncan – December 9, 2013

” 246. Ahmed – December 9, 2013

The price of success !
***
Is your soul?”

lol, don’t know, ask Bob or Alex :)

256. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@253. dmduncan

“So to Bob, Payne, and McKay:

May you AGONIZE over the scenes you write. May you rewrite a sentence 40 times before it sounds good. I hope this movie is your bootcamp, your crucible. May it push you into territory you feared, using intellectual powers that you never suspected even existed in latency within you. May you all find yourselves in a madness of discomfort and uncertainty that produces a vision, rather than a product.”

So say we all !

257. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

Trailer for the new sci-fi movie “Jupiter Ascending ” by the Wachowski siblings.

Jupiter Ascending
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoCyL_Pqzu8

The special effects looks great, hopefully the movie will be good too.

258. Magic_Al - December 9, 2013

Why does this get called Star Trek 3 while the untitled Bond movie is called Bond 24? Think about it.

259. Kirk1701 - December 9, 2013

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the amount of speculation, naysaying, and general griping I see on forums is hurting many people’s enjoyment of these films. Most of the speculators will have written a film of their own in the three years between new movies. What actually ends up on the screen can never live up to these expectations. It’s like Xmas morning. You’ve been hoping against hope that you’re going to get that one awesomely outrageous present that when you actually get to open your real presents, you’re always a bit disappointed that you didn’t get the outrageous one you’d been dreaming about. You see? The anticipation works against you. You’ve set yourself up in advance for disappointment. I hope that all fans will give themselves the gift of managing their expectations.

260. Basement Blogger - December 9, 2013

Some more things….

@ 240

Curious Cadet,

I’ve already said that a non-established writer could have a good idea. See what I said about “Yesterday’s Enterprise.” However, what great idea have Payne and McKay come up with? I have not heard J.J. say these guys pitched us a script and knocked us out. Remember what they said about Cumberbatch’s stellar audition. Now if the guys at Bad Robot come out and say something like that, I’ll be more optimistic.

And yes, a person can for the first time write a great screenplay. But the Star Trek franchise is different. One, it’s the fiftieth anniversary, shouldn’t we get known talent to flesh out the screenplay? Is Disney going with no name writers? No. Second, Shane Black wrote the first Lethal Weapon. If it bombed, there would be no second. Warner gambled and would go on to another movie. If Star Trek stinks, think there will another? What about a new TV show? The stakes are much more significant.

@ 248

David H. says, “I think we will get less of the non-stop action and sex appeal stuff that JJ likes, and less of the dumb-ass stuff that Lindelof interjects.”

How do you know that? Payne and McKay have no track record. For all we know, they could think that Battleship and Transformers: The Dark of the Moon were the greatest pieces of cinema ever.

@ 241, 243

MJ,

There’s a big difference between Braga and these guys. You see writing a teleplay or screenplays is like writing a book. The question is did the book get published. With Payne and McKay, the answer is no at this time. For all we know, the movies they work on will never get made. They’re in development. Remember J.J. Abrams wrote a screenplay for Superman. There are actual storyboards of that screenplay. Never produced.

Artwork of J.J.’s Superman.
http://io9.com/storyboards-reveal-the-climactic-ending-to-the-j-j-abr-472902180

Braga’s work before Generations was published i.e., his teleplays and the the teleplays he worked on were produced. And some of them were quite good. Reunion. Cause and Effect. Parallels. Etc.

I’ve always said that Bob Orci should be Star Trek Czar. He knows and loves Star Trek.

261. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

258. Kirk1701 – December 9, 2013

That’s not true. Even if I have my own idea of how things should have gone—and I do, that doesn’t mean they can’t surprise me by doing a movie as kick*ss as ST.09 that goes in a totally different direction than I would have gone, which is what ST.09 did for me. I actually learned something from ST.09. STID? Not so much.

If I had any expectation of STID, it was that. I was looking forward to being surprised, and did not have the irrational expectation of seeing what I would have done.

But so many of the surprises were bad ones, and that’s why I can’t glow about the movie, even though that’s what I wish I was doing.

They can do better than STID. They HAVE done better.

I went into viewing ST.09 with even higher expectations than STID, and that was a film I saw 6 times in the theater.

To this day the only major disappointment I have with it is that the Shatner scene was not included.

262. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@258. Kirk1701

After STID, I learned to lower my expectations for Star Trek movies.

If they surprise me in the next movie, I will be very happy. If not, then I will not be disappointed as it was the case was with STID.

263. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

259. Basement Blogger – December 9, 2013

How do you know that? Payne and McKay have no track record. For all we know, they could think that Battleship and Transformers: The Dark of the Moon were the greatest pieces of cinema ever.

***

Haha! Exactly. When someone reviews their Goliath screenplay and lauds them as screenplay writers skilled beyond their years because they did for Goliath what Zack Snyder did for Thermopylae, what is one to say to that? I just can’t take that reviewer’s enthusiasm for them as good news for Star Trek.

Rattle my brain, not my trachea. Please.

264. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@ Matt Wright & boborci,

Now, that trekmovie is back, is it possible to to bring the new guys here & tell us more about themselves ?

As you can see from the comments, most of us are anxious about the new writers & would love to know more about them.

265. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

263. Ahmed – December 9, 2013
@ Matt Wright & boborci,

Now, that trekmovie is back, is it possible to to bring the new guys here & tell us more about themselves ?

***

I don’t think that’s a good idea. I think whatever chance they have of doing something great will come from being the sort of un-selfconscious which coming here will happily destroy.

Let these dudes have a fighting chance. Keep them far away from here.

I’m skeptical, but I don’t WANT another passable Trek movie.

266. Phil - December 9, 2013

If Bob is smart he’ll keep them a million miles from sites like these. A couple of newbies will be eaten alive by someone looking for blood because these guys aren’t ‘true fans’…..whatever the hell that may mean.

267. Cygnus-X1 - December 9, 2013

I must concur with 264. dmduncan – December 9, 2013.

Not that they’d even necessarily WANT to come here, but the last thing these new guys need is a Trekkie wish-list of must-haves for the new movie.

“More Klingons!” “Do a story with Andorians!” “More action and explosions!”

“Write a scene for the entire surviving TOS cast!” “Do a story with Gary Mitchell AND Gary Seven!!” “Include an epic re-match between Data and Sirma Kolrami!”

“HAVE SHATNER PLAY EVERY CHARACTER IN THE MOVIE!!!!”

268. Ahmed - December 9, 2013

@266. Cygnus-X1

“Include an epic re-match between Data and Sirma Kolrami!”

LOL

269. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

265. Phil – December 9, 2013

You know, I’ve always dismissed the notion that some fans here periodically bring up that Nick Meyer come back to the franchise.

But maybe it’s not a bad idea. Not as a director, but as a writer—because the man knows how to craft an engaging story.

I mean, if JJ Abrams can bring Lawrence Kasdan back to write with, why can’t Bob do the same for Star Trek’s greatest savior, Nick Meyer?

Again, not to direct but to WRITE, which is what Meyer does best. Why can’t Bob collaborate with Meyer? Why wouldn’t it work?

270. dmduncan - December 9, 2013

266. Cygnus-X1 – December 9, 2013

LOL.

271. crazydaystrom - December 9, 2013

265. Phil
If Bob is smart he’ll keep them a million miles from sites like these. A couple of newbies will be eaten alive by someone looking for blood because these guys aren’t ‘true fans’….

Ain’t THAT the truth! I wonder how we all would fare if our work were put to such scrutiny? Everything PRE-analysed down to practically a quantum level. Diced, divided and parsed down to the smallest frickin’ delta-v of differential? The gauntlet of our precious overly self-valued critical opinions is neither fair nor productive to the creative process.

Bring the new guys HERE!?! Hahaha! Yeah, THAT should happen. Ha!

272. MJ - December 9, 2013

Jesus Christ,

The last thing we need are these impressionable young writers reading our weird shit here.

Look how we ruined Orci. ;-)

273. Jack - December 10, 2013

In the beating a dead horse category, I was intrigued to read Trekmovie’s Kayla’s opinion of Into Darkness, and appreciate that she captured in a few words what I’ve wasted hundreds (like engineered/cynical/manufactured/tired/uninspired/artificial) on:

“Into Darkness? Hated it. I’m sorry, I really am. I just didn’t feel invested in the story (or the lack thereof). It felt forced.”

Yep. Ditto. Forced.

To borrow and bastardize Bob’s line, there’s a reason she gets to write about science and movies.

I loved the first one, and hated nearly everything (even the E sets, including that promenade for people to topple off, and the score [the piano bits just didn't work]) about the second. Although the Klingon design and the sci finess of the idea of the androidy GATT guy (but not the execution) were nifty.

274. Jack - December 10, 2013

BTW, keep the new guys far away from this site. They can worry about what we think after the next things released. STID was proof that this site is bad for Trek. Tell good stories, and don’t worry about what a couple of dozen commenters think.

275. Jack - December 10, 2013

264. dmduncan and MJ — agreed. They (and Bob) should stay the heck away from fan sites, especially this one.

276. Jack - December 10, 2013

And, finally. Too bad about Cornish. That could have been pretty damned swell.

277. Jack - December 10, 2013

I thought I was done. But reading through comments, here goes:

New writers: forget about what TOS was about, forget about what Joseph Dickerson wrote or about mandates for optimism, allegories, exploration or what have you. Tell a great goddamned story, period. Look at how great TV now defies expectations and formulae (which is, in itself, becoming the new formula)… If it naturally fits any of the Trek requirements, fine… but again, just make a great movie first. Make it true to the characters, sure, but it doesn’t have to be a riff on a TV show that everybody on earth already knows. We alreasy know what TOS did — why not just be incredible, period, without Easter eggs, homages, nods and retreads.

278. oscar - December 10, 2013

Cornish out…
Good news , Star Trek 50 anniversary film deserves a good director, not a super amateur…
My choice, Jonathan Frakes.

279. bassmaster22 - December 10, 2013

These two guys have that same “confused” look that the last batch had. We don’t need a 50th anniversary film for the sake of having one. At this point it’s getting a little late to throw together something in time that would be any descent anyway so let’s just slow down a little.

BTW, they should pay MORE attention to sites like these. When Galaxy Quest is rated a better Trek movie than STID, you’d better listen up. And that’s not from a “few dozen” people either.

280. Silvereyes - December 10, 2013

MJ, Read carefully… In my post at 224, I was replying to poster 192, who was insulting you and Harry… And I never said most of the quotes you wrote in your post at 235… Not cool man, I was defending you…

281. The Keeper - December 10, 2013

It’s easy to understand that Alex Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof are out.
Why would any one want to be crucified again after they learned that Roberto Orci simply wants to continue with the Khan vs. Klingon vs. Federation story line again.
Even Joe Cornish knows when to walk away from a Star Trek film with a built in fan failure story line.
Maybe they should get George Lucas to direct.

282. Admiral_Bumablebee - December 10, 2013

This is the 50th anniversary of Trek. They better come up with something grand, epic and not a story that does not really matter, a story that could be just an episode of a TV series. This needs to be really big.
Look what they did with the Doctor Who anniversary. It was epic and fitting. I don’t want to see a TV episode as the next movie. I want to see something that blows me away!

283. Stephan - December 10, 2013

But the “fans” who don’t like nuTrek still haven’t learnt to just walk away. :-P

284. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

I agree partly with Kayla.

Didn’t love it, didn’t hate it. It was just passable. Not stellar. Certainly npt interstellar.

But it does feel forced. It feels like something written in a hurry according to a checklist, where they didn’t take time to think things through. It’s like they had their fingers crossed that they knew what they were doing.

I had feelings and suspicions that was happening long before the movie was released, but I gave them all the benefit of the doubt. Now, I’m getting those same feelings and suspicions again.

285. crazydaystrom - December 10, 2013

You know what Ladies and Gentleman, whether with the next film or further down the road, it’s going to be alright Trek-wise. I betcha!

And I truly believe that ,overall, positivity from us is the best and most that we can do. No, I’m not saying just love and accept any and everything with the name Star Trek attached to it. But overall, optimism and positivity work extremely well in my experience. Certainly moreso than the doubt, dissension and bad mouthing about things we really don’t know a great deal about, all things considered, that has sadly IMO become more the rule than the exception around these parts anymore.

It’s gonna be alright.

286. Curious Cadet - December 10, 2013

@259. Basement Blogger,
“what great idea have Payne and McKay come up with? I have not heard J.J. say these guys pitched us a script and knocked us out.”

What’s the difference? You don’t even know what these guys will actually be doing. Plenty of sucessful movies have been written by just one writer. Perhaps Orci is that writer and he just needs a couple of lackeys to keep the flame burning while he works on his other projects and to bounce ideas off of now that Kurtzman has moved on. Maybe they’re Orci’s lovers and threatened to out him unless he hired them, whether they contribute word one to the final script.

———————————
“But the Star Trek franchise is different. One, it’s the fiftieth anniversary, shouldn’t we get known talent to flesh out the screenplay? Is Disney going with no name writers? No.”

No it’s not. Star Trek is like every other franchise. The studio wants to make a pot load of money and will try whatever it takes to make that happen. Reboot? Check. Throw tons of money at it? Check. Hire the highest profile writers in Hollywood? Check. And what did we get? STID. Now they’re taking a different approach. Who cares what Disney does … “John Carter” cough cough.

———————————–
“Second, Shane Black wrote the first Lethal Weapon. If it bombed, there would be no second. Warner gambled and would go on to another movie. If Star Trek stinks, think there will another? What about a new TV show? The stakes are much more significant.”

You address this as if the studio just threw some scripts against the wall and went with the one that stuck, seemingly discounting that Black’s script was anything but brilliant. It’s easy to say “what if it failed”, as if it could have, but seriously — STID had some of the biggest writers in Hollywood, and not only did it fail to meet the studios published financial expectations, it also failed to meet a majority of the fans expectations. You address this as if only writers with strong credits can gurantee the success of a film, and more importantly that it will not be a failure, when Hollywood is full of examples of both –because every film is gamble. What if Paramount hires the biggest, most expensive writers in Hollywood? What if they increase the budget to $250 million? Will that gurantee success? And what happens if it only does marginally better than STID? What of Star Trek’s fate then?

287. Silvereyes - December 10, 2013

@235 MJ

My post at 224 was directed at poster @ 192, in defense of yourself and Harry Ballz. I got annoyed because he was insulting both of you… Your post therefore makes no sense. Also, Of the quotes you mention, I only said the first one, and I stand by it.

Not cool…

288. Gary 8.5 - December 10, 2013

280.
I agree.
All will be well, in time .

289. Curious Cadet - December 10, 2013

@268. dmduncan,
“Again, not to direct but to WRITE, which is what Meyer does best. Why can’t Bob collaborate with Meyer? Why wouldn’t it work?”

It’s not a bad idea from a fan perspective, but I’m not sure Orci feels the same about Meyer as Abrams does about Kasdan. Writers are enormously egotistical people, at least when it comes to their work. I don’t really see Meyer being in the same wavelength as Orci, and my guess is Orci may even see him as a little old fashioned, when one could argue that’s Star Trek’s problem. Would Meyer write the story, then hand it over to Orci to tweak or vice-versa? Would they hang out together and spitball ideas? I don’t know. Or it might be oil and water. You think Orci had no say in hiring those two credit-less kids? That says a lot about what kind of control Orci wants over the next film. He might view Meyer being imposed on him (if not his idea) with resentment, and it would end up just wasting time and money.

I could be wrong, it could work terrifically, but you asked why it wouldn’t work, and that’s the first thing that comes to mind.

290. Gary 8.5 - December 10, 2013

281.
Lets not forget that Nemesis was written by an Oscar winning screenwriter.
These guys may essentially have no resume,
But, lets give them a chance .
Before we judge them,
Lets see what they come up with.

291. Kirk1701 - December 10, 2013

I guess I just don’t understand the hatred of STID. I agree the Khan storyline was clunky and I groaned a bit in the theatre myself. It worked though, if only barely. My point is, it wasn’t as bad as you guys seem to think it was. I think you’re off base to feel insulted by it. I feel like the entire staff behind that movie honestly thought that would be a great idea. And it almost worked. I would say it was only off by about 10%. It was a ballsy concept. I applaud anything that swings for the fences, even if it doesn’t quite make it. A ground rule double may not be as exciting as a homerun, but it still puts hitters on base.

Managing expectations is not the same as lowering them. You can definitely hope to see a great movie, but you have to realize that you aren’t going to feel the same way you felt the first time you fell in love with Star Trek. That moment can never be recaptured. It happened once. Enjoy it for what it was and move on. We all have a 50 year relationship with Star Trek. It’s like asking people who have been married for 50 years to recreate the emotions of the first time they knew they were in love. It’s impossible. The relationship grows, deepens, and takes unexpected turns. It cannot always be that new, shiny thing. To manage expectations is to be realistic about what is possible.

292. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

286. Kirk1701 – December 10, 2013

I guess I just don’t understand the hatred of STID.

***

On my part it’s not hatred. It’s a passable movie. 3 out of 5 stars.

And ST.09 was so good that it made me fall in love with a franchise I was in the process of getting a divorce from because of Voyager and Enterprise.

So we ended up getting remarried and now I’m starting to wonder if maybe that wasn’t such a good idea.

Bob once said on here that he hoped somebody would tell him when he should walk away from Star Trek.

The next movie will be the thing that says either he should or shouldn’t. If they can’t up their game when the stakes have risen to at least where they were when they accepted the job to write ST.09, then maybe it’s time to step aside.

But given that they appear to say yes to everything and now have a workload that prevents the original partners from working together on Star Trek, the question becomes CAN Bob walk away when people tell him it’s time?

293. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

284. Curious Cadet – December 10, 2013

Yeah, Bob and Nick Meyer are NOT on the same wavelength, but they each have complementary skills.

That’s why I think it’s foolish to hire people who do what you do, which is what these two new guys appear to do. Hire people who DON’T do what you do. Hire people who COMPLEMENT rather than DUPLICATE your skill set.

I don’t know about Meyer’s ego, but he seems like a really pleasant man, and Bob is already suited to working as a duo.

294. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

292. Kirk1701 – December 10, 2013

I already manage my expectations to what has been proven possible. And I may be blowing smoke up my own arse, but I hope to be providing an example of what I think that is real soon, and then some of you guys can tell me if I am or not.

295. Kirk1701 - December 10, 2013

dmduncan

I think you’re giving yourself too much credit as someone with authority to tell a writer to step aside. No hockey fan can tell a coach to take a hike. You can pressure them all you like, but you just end up a nuisance.

You guys love to pin blame on Bob. But he’s just a scapegoat really. No one really knows the real reasons STID didn’t meet fan expectations. The only confirmed fault is what JJ admitted, which is the secrecy surrounding Khan. Everything else is pointless speculation and mud-slinging. You’re not getting anything for your vitriol against Bob. Name any other writer who’s willing to get waist-deep in fan forums. None of us have spoken to him personally, or worked with him as a writer, so all of these opinions are counterproductive. I’m not referring to you, dmduncan, either. I don’t know you either. I’m taking an average of what I’ve read here, on aicn, and other nameless forums. People love a scapegoat.

If I were given the reins to Star Trek, they’d have to pry it from my cold dead hands. And I wouldn’t be trying to take it someplace I as a fan would not be willing to go. I suspect Bob is the same way. There’s no conspiracy here. It’s just a few people’s visions cannot possibly line up with a few million. The math is impossible. So you have to accept that you’re in someone else’s vision. You’re free to say you wouldn’t have chosen it, but in the end it’s not your job is it?

296. Hugh Hoyland - December 10, 2013

#294 dmduncan

Hey man, did you post your treatment or are you still getting it ready. I’ll take a read if you do.

297. NuFan - December 10, 2013

They look young enough that they won’t write a boring movie for old guys that love to live in the canon. Joseph Dickerson must be very angry.

298. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

295. Kirk1701 – December 10, 2013

Your opinion and not one either that i agree with or think is well founded.

Indeed, sport’s fans can often see what’s wrong before the coaches do because the coaches are too close to what they’re doing and they’re egos are too big to admit what’s obvious when things have stopped going right.

And fans prove that they see what’s wrong by accurately predicting outcomes.

299. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

296. Hugh Hoyland – December 10, 2013

#294 dmduncan

Hey man, did you post your treatment or are you still getting it ready. I’ll take a read if you do.

***

Thanks for asking, Hugh. Not yet. I sent an email to Matt Wright a little while ago making an offer to him. He may or may not desire to confirm what I’ve told him in it, and to accept my offer.

If he doesn’t accept I’ll still post it, but right now I’m waiting to hear back from him.

So, Matt, if you’re reading this—please do check your inbox @ trekmovie.

300. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

295. Kirk1701 – December 10, 2013

I’m not spewing vitriol at Bob. I’m not saying that you think I am. I just want to be clear that I don’t feel vitriolic in anything I am saying.

But you know what STID reminds me of?

The time my philo professor gave me an A on a paper when I deserved a B, just because he was so used to giving me A’s.

He felt bad about it when he told me that he gave me an A on that paper against his better judgement, when I deserved a B, and I felt bad about it for getting an A when I deserved a B.

I didn’t like getting an undeserved A anymore than he enjoyed giving it out of routine regarding me.

Pressure, in the form of valid criticism, isn’t a bad thing. It’s what helps you to do your best work.

I don’t know if Bob is the sort of person who prefers to only hear good things about himself. Personally I know I’m more like Gordon Ramsay who once said that he didn’t give a damn about what he was doing right, and that he only wanted to hear from customers what he was doing wrong.

That is precisely what I think Bob needs to hear. He’s got enough Grima Wormtongues surrounding him, I’m sure. I’m going to be Gandalf.

301. Pensive's Wetness - December 10, 2013

since its already 300 freaked out posts (mostly of worry and doom-sayteths), i just say that i’m happy that certain individuals are not part of production. As for the noob writers? everybody is a noob once (sometimes twice). As others have already commented on, maybe these guys have potential… Welcome to the Stable, gentlemen. I hope your product is excellent and advances your careers…

302. Kirk1701 - December 10, 2013

dmduncan

Posted without comment:

n the Android’s Dungeon…

COMIC BOOK GUY
Last night’s Itchy & Scratchy was, without a doubt, the worst episode ever! Rest assured that I was on the Internet within minutes, registering my disgust throughout the world.

BART
Hey, I know it wasn’t great, but what right do you have to complain?

COMIC BOOK GUY
As a loyal viewer, I feel they owe me.

BART
What? They’re giving you thousands of hours of entertainment for free. What could they possibly owe you? I mean, If anything, you owe them.

COMIC BOOK GUY
(pause) Worst episode ever.

303. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

302. Kirk1701 – December 10, 2013

Free?

I paid to see ST.09 six times and STID three times. I drove over 75 miles in a wind, rain, and lightning storm at night to see STID, buddy.

Free?

Analogies are fine—just make ‘em relevant please.

304. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

@ 281. The Keeper – December 10, 2013

“It’s easy to understand that Alex Kurtzman and Damon Lindelof are out.
Why would any one want to be crucified again after they learned that Roberto Orci simply wants to continue with the Khan vs. Klingon vs. Federation story line again.”

Actually, Lindelof is the one who talked about continuing with Khan in the next movie.

305. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

The majority has spoken!

I hereby withdrew my request to bring the new writers here.

306. Phil - December 10, 2013

@302. Yep, that about sums it up….

307. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

Godzilla – Official Teaser Trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECUbuBrbP1g

308. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

We are Star Trek’s paying customers. That entitles us to say what we are saying.

I’m afraid I just don’t have the shut-up-and-like-it constitution of some of you old folks with your quaint authority measurements.

309. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

@302. Kirk1701

“What? They’re giving you thousands of hours of entertainment for free. What could they possibly owe you? I mean, If anything, you owe them.”

I didn’t know that Paramount/CBS is offering free movie tickets and free blu-ray discs !!

310. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

=================================
‘Star Trek 3′ Search: With Joe Cornish Out, Who Should Direct?

The ‘Attack the Block’ filmmaker was attached to the ‘Star Trek Into Darkness’ sequel, but has since vacated the project.

Good things happen to those who wait — but sometimes, bad things happen, too.

Case in point: After weeks of waiting for “Attack the Block” filmmaker Joe Cornish to sign on for the “Star Trek Into Darkness” sequel, the other shoe has dropped. Variety reports that Cornish is no longer circling the project. With J.J. Abrams out of the seat and Cornish not accepting the captain’s chair, the next voyage of the U.S.S. Enterprise is currently without a leader.

“Star Trek 3,” as we’re calling it until we hear otherwise, does not yet have a release date, though it’s rumored to arrive at some point in 2016. That’s not tomorrow, but it’s not far down the line, either. If Paramount wants to hit 2016, they need someone at the helm, and soon.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1718765/star-trek-3-director-joe-cornish-drops-out.jhtml

=================================

311. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

309. Ahmed – December 10, 2013

Seriously. My previous post disappeared so I’ll say it again. I paid to watch ST.09 six times and STID three times. I paid the fare for multiple people on several of those occasions.

I just looked up the exact mileage on MapQuest, and for my first viewing of STID I drove 118 miles, half of which was on twisty narrow roads used by speeding semi trailers, in a wind, rain, and lightning storm. At night.

“Free” my a**.

312. MJ - December 10, 2013

Silvereyes,

I APOLOGIZE that I completely misread your post.

My bad! Not cool, as you said!

313. MJ - December 10, 2013

“I’m afraid I just don’t have the shut-up-and-like-it constitution of some of you old folks with your quaint authority measurements.”

Yea, me too!!!

There are a few serfs in this crowd though. ;-)

314. crazydaystrom - December 10, 2013

308. dmduncan
I’m afraid I just don’t have the shut-up-and-like-it constitution of some of you old folks with your quaint authority measurements.

dm, you do realize it’s not just and all about age don’t you?

And don’t be afraid.
jk

315. LogicalLeopard - December 10, 2013

dmduncan made a comment about fans and sports in post 298. The point has merit, but many times it works in the exact opposite fashion. With sports, if something works, the coach is a genius, and the fans should shut up and trust him, if it doesn’t work, the coach is an idiot, and a fan could do his job.

I think there’s give and take with fan relationships, in both sports and Star Trek. By watching free programming (and attracting advertisers) or by purchasing movie tickets, DVD’s, merchandise, etc, fans financially provide for the subject of their fandom/

But also, people have to realize that just because you kick in a bit of money and time doesn’t mean that they HAVE to listen to YOUR particular opinion. Or the 6 other people that share it with you. We’re fans, so obviously we get riled up about things we don’t like. But we shouldn’t inflate our opinions to be of larger importance than they actually are. It’s like when people say “My tax dollars are paying for__________.” Your tax dollars may not even be covering the light bill inside of the post office in Mayberry, Alabama for a month. Yes you’re an American, yes you pay taxes, yes you have a voice, but don’t expect the President to read your scathing letter and change course.

This post isn’t directed at dmduncan or anyone in particular, it’s just an observation. Yes, as fans, we have the right to say what we feel about the product we get, but lets keep it all in perspective. No matter what you or I would change about the movie, it still made millions of dollars and most people who saw it liked it. So, it’s not exactly the worst movie ever, when movies are designed to 1) make money and 2) entertain audiences. It did both.

316. SkiesSeven - December 10, 2013

@dmduncan

Also, the notion that we are getting ‘thousands’ of hours of content, when we are actually waiting many years between each film, that amount to nothing more than two-hours each. And we’re still waiting on a TV series.

317. Buzz Cagney - December 10, 2013

Yea when I was young and immature I always had to get the last word. As you grow up you realise it just doesn’t matter. Nobody is impressed by a big mouth. Least of all an internet one hiding behind a keyboard.
Far better to just be nice and respect others. Sort of like Gene was suggesting with Trek.
Its a nice idea.

318. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

==============================
Comic Review: ‘Star Trek: Khan’ #3

The comic starts with Spock interrupting Khan’s story (is he a lawyer now?), stating that Khan’s history in the Eugenics Wars is not applicable to the trial, and they should move on. Really, though, if Spock felt this way he should have interrupted earlier… like in issue #1… or not let Kirk ask the question about why Khan suddenly doesn’t look like Ricardo Montalban. But whatever. We’ll move on.

……
Next issue, we’ll find out how Admiral Marcus stumbled upon Khan, and why that fateful meeting would cause the trials and tribble-lations of ‘Star Trek: Into Darkness’.

Essentially, it’s fairly lackluster. There really isn’t any character development, and there is a sort of shallow back story about the Eugenics Wars that sort of puts Khan’s life before the Enterprise into perspective, but it’s not exactly earth-shattering or all that interesting.

It’s one shining moment is when Khan, on the first page says “Eugenics Wars? How poetic. And how feeble an attempt to encapsulate events you scarcely comprehend.”

The irony, of course, is that nothing in Khan’s story really gives us more of an understanding of the Eugenics Wars then we already did before.

http://sciencefiction.com/2013/12/06/comic-review-star-trek-khan-3/

==============================

319. LogicalLeopard - December 10, 2013

316. SkiesSeven – December 10, 2013
@dmduncan

Also, the notion that we are getting ‘thousands’ of hours of content, when we are actually waiting many years between each film, that amount to nothing more than two-hours each. And we’re still waiting on a TV series.

*********************************

It seems kind of obvious to me that Kirk1701’s comment was directed at the inflated sense of entitlement some fans feel towards the object of their fandom. Although the quote addresses a free television series with thousands of hours of content (Like Star Trek used to be), the sentiment is still there – I paid my ten (or however many) bucks, so the movies should be like I think they should. But really, the unfortunate news is this: Star Trek is a product, at it’s heart. Whatever people have to do to sell it, they will. And they have been doing that since it first aired. So, like all products, when you don’t like it anymore, switch to something different. Yeah, it isn’t nice that they’re still producing a “different” product with the same name, but I’m sure old people feel the same about Coca Cola. If you don’t like it, don’t drink it.

But the BEST thing about Star Trek is the fact that you STILL have all the old stuff you can watch at any time. You may find new stuff you might like, in the form of novels, fan fiction, even video games. *L* I like to play STO from time to time, the other day I fought a Mugato. I was too busy looking at how cool it was that it pounded me to death. *LOL* It’s an advantage that we have that people who miss the old Coke formula don’t have, so we should enjoy it.

320. Phil - December 10, 2013

@269. It’s an interesting though – on paper, yeah, why not hire Nick Meyer. Thing is, in a creative process, it’s not as simple as deciding I’m going to write a great screenplay. I’ve no doubt that every single writer out there wakes up in the morning just knowing that today they are producing a masterpiece. And as various ads say, results may vary.

We are fans, and we are biased fans. The first impulse is always “who wouldn’t want to write for Trek”? Well, Nick Meyer (or writer, for that matter) might be sick of the franchise. He may hate Bob Orci. Canon is to tight a straightjacket. Who wants to deal with the prima donna fan base? The producer/studio heads are a$$holes. I’m busy…..For any given individual, if the negatives outweigh the positives, anyone of these reasons could be all that was necessary to take a pass on the project. If a creative individual needs to have his arm twisted to get back in the saddle one more time, I think I’d have to give some consideration to the guy who may not have the resume, just has a bit of the fire in his eye – if the next Trek is bold, and a bit outside of what we have seen in the past, it could be that there is something to be said about youth and inexperience….

321. crazydaystrom - December 10, 2013

317. Buzz Cagney
Yea when I was young and immature I always had to get the last word. As you grow up you realise it just doesn’t matter. Nobody is impressed by a big mouth. Least of all an internet one hiding behind a keyboard.
Far better to just be nice and respect others. Sort of like Gene was suggesting with Trek.
Its a nice idea.

AMEN!

322. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

@320. Phil

“We are fans, and we are biased fans. The first impulse is always “who wouldn’t want to write for Trek”? Well, Nick Meyer (or writer, for that matter) might be sick of the franchise. He may hate Bob Orci. Canon is to tight a straightjacket. Who wants to deal with the prima donna fan base? The producer/studio heads are a$$holes. I’m busy…..For any given individual, if the negatives outweigh the positives, anyone of these reasons could be all that was necessary to take a pass on the project.”

Somewhere there might be the reason why Cornish turned down Star Trek for the second time!

323. Red Dead Ryan - December 10, 2013

#279.

“BTW, they should pay MORE attention to sites like these. When Galaxy Quest is rated a better Trek movie than STID, you’d better listen up. And that’s not from a “few dozen” people either.”

C’mon, man, that “poll” was proven to be a “Gong Show”. And no, they shouldn’t pay too much attention to sites like these.

324. Phil - December 10, 2013

@310. Having a script would help, too. We have seen this rodeo before – a year and a half of pronouncements that the script was ‘almost done’…when in fact is was nothing more then an outline on a cocktail napkin.

Yeah, I get that everyone is SPECULATING that Paramount wants a 2016 release. Until they announce it, though, it’s just that – speculation.

325. Curious Cadet - December 10, 2013

@ 300. dmduncan,
“I don’t know if Bob is the sort of person who prefers to only hear good things about himself. Personally I know I’m more like Gordon Ramsay who once said that he didn’t give a damn about what he was doing right, and that he only wanted to hear from customers what he was doing wrong.”

Around here, I believe that’s grounds for being labeled as a “hater”. ;-)

That said, the thing about Orci is, we don’t really know what to attribute to him and what to attribute to someone else. Were any of STID’s disappointments attributable to him? Or were most or all attributable to someone else. Orci admirably stops the buck at his desk and includes himself in a one-for-all-all-for-one defense of the film. So how can we really who to blame?

The only thing that Orci seems to be squarely in charge of on his own are the comics. It seems to me if we really want to know what to expect in the next film one need look no further than the stories he’s collaborating and signing-off on for IDW. I only read them through Countdown to Darkness and none since. But I have to say, they were mostly light, entertaining fluff, derivative of TOS, though without as many direct quotations as we got in STID — and many of which were less than satisfying endings. In fact I have to say many of those pre-STID comics felt like STID in hindsight, though STID was a lot more exciting. So is this a fair test for Orci?

326. SkiesSeven - December 10, 2013

@LogicalLeopard

“Star Trek is a product, at it’s heart.”

———-

No, Star Trek isn’t just a product. It’s a vision. It’s a conveyor of ideas and values. It stands far apart from every vampire and zombie flick out there.

327. crazydaystrom - December 10, 2013

326. SkiesSeven

Star Trek is a vision, a conveyor of ideas and values AND it is a product.

328. TrekmadeMeWonder - December 10, 2013

Please. Please. Please. No Nick Meyers in any more Treks.

The comparisons of STiD to WOK are already too many, and I really want to think that Star Trek is capable of being made very well – without the influence a few people that have already had their chances.

Although I will admit to often wondering why Nicholas Meyer was not given another opportunity to direct the course of thiis Enterprise.

329. LogicalLeopard - December 10, 2013

326. SkiesSeven – December 10, 2013
@LogicalLeopard

“Star Trek is a product, at it’s heart.”

———-

No, Star Trek isn’t just a product. It’s a vision. It’s a conveyor of ideas and values. It stands far apart from every vampire and zombie flick out there.

*********************

It’s a good product, but a product nonetheless. All products are visions. Some very good products convey ideas and values. Some great products stand apart from competitors. But they’re still products. If Star Trek wasn’t a product, CBS wouldn’t have ever aired it, or cancelled it, and it would have never been revived as movies, then television series, and those television series wouldn’t have been cancelled. It’s a product. And when you deny that, you open yourself up for heartbreak, because money decisions will come before fan friendly decisions.

Here’s a good example: It may be hard for some of us to remember what it was like before the 7 and done rule, but if you recall, TNG was trucking (trekking?) on all cylinders before it was abruptly cancelled at Season 7. It was doing good, as I recall, ratings were good, so why did they stop? From what I read at the time, they stopped because they wanted to shift into making movies, and believed that people would be less likely to watch the movie if the show was still on. That seemed preposterous to me, a fan, who would have done both. But that’s the way it was, and that’s what happened.

330. LogicalLeopard - December 10, 2013

@ 300. dmduncan,
“I don’t know if Bob is the sort of person who prefers to only hear good things about himself.

***********************

I’d wager to say that anyone who drops into this forum without being anonymous is NOT the sort of person who prefers to hear only good things about himself *LOL* Because he’s been raked over the coals here, although he keeps coming.

And you know, that’s what I like about him. Who cares if I agree with all his decisions, he steps in here and talks to us. It may be brief, but he does it, and gains NOTHING personally by it, except for feedback.

It really makes me happy that Orci & Co are interested in feedback. I don’t care if they use much of it, the interest is notable. It doesn’t mean that they are going to make the movie the fans want exactly as they want it, but it does mean that they’re listening, and listening is good. I’ve seen interviews with creators who say they get on the internet occasionally and see what the fans are talking about. Yet, I’ve never seen someone actually do it.

331. LogicalLeopard - December 10, 2013

321. crazydaystrom – December 10, 2013
317. Buzz Cagney
Yea when I was young and immature I always had to get the last word. As you grow up you realise it just doesn’t matter. Nobody is impressed by a big mouth. Least of all an internet one hiding behind a keyboard.
Far better to just be nice and respect others. Sort of like Gene was suggesting with Trek.
Its a nice idea.

AMEN!

*********************

Amen, seconded. *LOL*

“Those &$&%$%ing ^&%#&%-heads have COMPLETELY lost focus of Roddenberry’s @#$#ing dream of peace and harmony!”

332. LogicalLeopard - December 10, 2013

Er, let me note that I was “Amening” Buzz Cagney’s statements in a general fashion, I have no idea what his comments were in response to, because I didn’t read the original post!

333. Vultan - December 10, 2013

#317

Hey, what’s the matter with you, Buzz? You’re making too much sense. Stop it! Stop it now!

334. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

314. crazydaystrom – December 10, 2013

Not sure what you mean. I’m not afraid.

335. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

315. LogicalLeopard – December 10, 2013

It wasn’t the worst movie ever. It’s like I said, 3 out of 5 stars for me, but also like I said, Gordon Ramsay is exactly right.

336. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

Paramount Finds Its Director for ‘World War Z’ Sequel

Juan Antonio Bayona, who last directed 2012’s tsunami drama The Impossible, has signed a deal to direct the sequel to Paramount and Skydance Productions’ World War Z.

The Spanish director has shown an ability to juggle scares, drama and big sequences — all of which Z did successfully. Bayona directed the well-regarded Guillermo del Toro-produced ghost story The Orphanage. And Impossible netted star Naomi Watts an Academy Award nomination in a movie that was both tender and jaw-dropping in portraying the real-life tsunami that devastated Southeast Asia in 2004. The movie was also a hit, grossing $180 million worldside.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/paramount-finds-director-world-war-664738

337. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

325. Curious Cadet – December 10, 2013

Yeah but it’s also that comic books are typically designed to be that way. They’re more of a sketch than a painting, so I don’t know that it’s fair to consider those either. But I take your point. He did apparently write the Shatner scene, and I loved that.

All I know about my other favorite scenes in ST.09—George Kirk’s death, Pike’s speech, Kirk putting the puzzle together, the cave sequence, Kirk maneuvering Spock out of command— is that they weren’t written by Damon Lindelof.

338. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

@330. LogicalLeopard

“I’ve seen interviews with creators who say they get on the internet occasionally and see what the fans are talking about. Yet, I’ve never seen someone actually do it.”

J. Michael Straczynski, creator of Babylon 5, did it way back in 1991 on Usenet, GEnie & CompuServe before the days of the web as we know it now. And he still doing that on his personal Facebook page these days.

339. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 10, 2013

Trek could do no better than hiring Straczynski, today!

He has a good understanding of characters, epic story arcs and of course, Science-fiction.

340. Basement Blogger - December 10, 2013

Who’s running things for Paramount and Star Trek? Let’s look at the clues.

1. Won’t pay for Benecio Del Toro to be in STID.

2. Won’t pay for cheap director Joe Cornish.

3. Hires cheap no name writers.

4. Star Trek 3 to have lower budget.

5. Will film Star Trek 3 out of state to save on taxes. My latinum is on Detroit. I keeeed Detroit.

6. Star Trek 3 will likely be in 3D; but the cheapest release. Guessing a cheap conversion from 2D.

I smell a Ferengi here. Quark is in charge of Star Trek 3. He’s maximizing Paramount’s profits on Star Trek 3. I bet a bar of gold pressed latinum that this is his play for one last score to obtain entrance into the Divine Treasury.

341. Silvereyes - December 10, 2013

@312 MJ

Thanks MJ. No hard feelings. Misunderstandings can happen…

342. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

@ 339. TrekMadeMeWonder – December 10, 2013

“Trek could do no better than hiring Straczynski, today!

He has a good understanding of characters, epic story arcs and of course, Science-fiction.”

Agreed I was hoping that either Ron Moore or JMS would be joining Bob in the writing team but Paramount/Bad Robot went a different way.

343. crazydaystrom - December 10, 2013

334. dmduncan
314. crazydaystrom

Not sure what you mean. I’m not afraid.

Just little joke about your phrasing in post 308-

I’m afraid I just don’t have the shut-up-and-like-it constitution of some of you old folks with your quaint authority measurements.

Just a little micro-miniscule and fairly obtuse joke.

344. MJ - December 10, 2013

I love JMS, but JMS is not a director. I think maybe he directed one episode of B5.

345. crazydaystrom - December 10, 2013

339. TrekMadeMeWonder
Trek could do no better than hiring Straczynski, today!
He has a good understanding of characters, epic story arcs and of course, Science-fiction.

Indeed! Straczynski’s Babylon 5 was impressive sci fi. I’ve been thinking about rewatching the series for a couple of months now. I’ll eventually get around to it.

346. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

@ 344. MJ – December 10, 2013

“I love JMS, but JMS is not a director. I think maybe he directed one episode of B5.”

I was talking about bringing him to write not to direct.

347. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

@ 345. crazydaystrom – December 10, 2013

“Indeed! Straczynski’s Babylon 5 was impressive sci fi. I’ve been thinking about rewatching the series for a couple of months now. I’ll eventually get around to it.”

I rewatch the entire Babylon 5 series & TV movies every year starting with “Babylon 5: In the Beginning” & finishing with “Babylon 5: The Lost Tales”.

It is such a joy to watch G’Kar & Mollari every year. :)

348. Jim, London - December 10, 2013

Get Tom Hanks involved.

349. Star Trek Family - December 10, 2013

I feel that Paramount has let Star Trek, and the fans down!
All the money we have spent , and all the money they have made, and we can’t even get a decent movie! Now they want to go cheap with everything !
We waited 4 years for a movie that was just ok.
I will try to look on the bright side, maybe since these new writers have so much to prove they might try a little harder. This could be their big break if the story is great.

I think that most movies now, are just about making money. You can tell because they have no heart , it’s like a video game, no real heart or soul.
We can bitch all we want but in the end it’s up to the studio.

350. crazydaystrom - December 10, 2013

347. Ahmed
I rewatch the entire Babylon 5 series & TV movies every year starting with “Babylon 5: In the Beginning” & finishing with “Babylon 5: The Lost Tales”.

It is such a joy to watch G’Kar & Mollari every year. :)

Yeah such good stuff. And I haven’t seen it all! I own seasons 1-4 and I’ve seen some of 5. But I haven’t seen Crusade or The Gathering, or Rangers! Talk about a ‘to see’ list.

G’Kar and Mollari were cool but Kosh and the Vorlons (Angels!!) were my favorites.

351. Curious Cadet - December 10, 2013

@337. dmduncan,
“All I know about my other favorite scenes in ST.09—George Kirk’s death, Pike’s speech, Kirk putting the puzzle together, the cave sequence, Kirk maneuvering Spock out of command— is that they weren’t written by Damon Lindelof.”

Interesting. So did Orci claim he wrote those scenes himself at some point here, or with Kurtzman? I have to say those are all highlights of ST09. If Orci wrote them alone, then that bodes well.

My concern is that STID had some great moments individually too. The problem with STID is it felt disconnected, like a bunch of ideas loosely strung together. Perhaps Orci being the sole writer will be able to better focus the story and make it a cohesive whole.

352. Cygnus-X1 - December 10, 2013

295. Kirk1701 – December 10, 2013

I have to echo 298. dmduncan.

Kirk1701, you use the term “scapegoat” with regard to criticism of Bob Orci as a writer of STID, as though the writers of STID aren’t the appropriate people to blame for flaws in that story.

I won’t re-hash all of the issues that people have had with STID—though, if you really “don’t understand,” you could just go to Rotten Tomatoes and read the reviews, and/or do a bit of Googling and read the longer, blog-length critiques…or, scroll back a few months through threads at this site and read the posts—but, suffice it to say, most people who find fault with STID aren’t complaining about the look of the movie or its production values.

Most people agree that STID was a very slick, professional-looking, visually titillating movie (though there has been no shortage of complaints that the movie relied too heavily on visual titillation—“more sizzle than steak.”

Likewise, most people who find fault with STID don’t tend to complain about the acting.

It’s the writing about which the less-than-entirely-satisfied viewers complain most, by far. And being that there are three credited writers of STID, it’s not “scapegoating” to lay criticism pertaining to the writing of STID at the feet of Bob as one of the writers of that script.

Specific criticisms, like the choice to rip-off the TWOK death scene, are perhaps better laid at the feet of the specific writer most responsible for a particular decision, where such specificity is publicly known—in the case of the aforementioned example, my understanding is that D. Lindelof is the one to blame—but general criticism of the STID script is appropriately directed at the writers of the STID script, and also—I’m assuming—at the director and captain of the ship, JJ Abrams. STID was ultimately Abrams’ vision, and it was his job to see flaws in the script and have them improved, especially on this particular project with its “supreme court” of Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, Abrams and Burk all contributing to the story. It’s not as though JJ Abrams was just handed the completed script of STID and asked to make it into a movie. I suppose my guess would be that, as a non-credited writer and non-director, Bryan Burk would be the least responsible for the story and script.

353. Dswynne - December 10, 2013

Just hire Jonathan Frakes for Q’s sake! He and Lavar Burton, acting as unit director, can get this thing done.

354. I am not Herbert (retired) - December 10, 2013

Cornish is out, you say… WHAT a surprise! (sarcasm) =P

…oh yeah…

I’m Back!, BEE-YAH-CH!! =D

(let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin…)

(just kidding!) ;-)

355. Hugh Hoyland - December 10, 2013

299. dmduncan – December 10, 2013

Great, I enjoy reading other peoples scripts/ideas and look forward to giving it a look.

356. Kirk1701 - December 10, 2013

Cygnus-X1

I can’t believe I’m getting drawn into this argument as much as this. But you’re missing the point. The point is why are you guys spending so much time bitching about a movie you didn’t care for? A SOMEWHAT CLUNKY PLOT IS NOT A PERSONAL INSULT!! The writers aren’t going out of their way to piss you off! They believe they’re making a good picture. The endless whining just makes you the most insufferable group of spoiled brats. You guys still pay the money. Many of you went many times just to bitch at it. If you don’t like it, why waste your money and your breath? What do you get for complaining?

You want new stories so long as they’re the same as the old ones. What kind of sense does that make? The old show was made 50 years ago! It was a different era with different sensibilities. It’s NEVER COMING BACK! DEAL WITH IT! TNG was made by the same people. Gene Roddenberry was a great visionary, but his concept of a perfect world had zero dramatic possibility. There’s no drama without conflict. TWOK wouldn’t have worked unless it broke Gene’s rules.

And the inside-out WOK in STID wasn’t as bad as you guys are making it. In fact, it works in the same sense 09 works. The friendship between Kirk and Spock crosses dimension and time. In all of these realities, the powers of hate, fear, and prejudice want to tear them apart, but the fraternity onboard the Enterprise is stronger. The universe can be quite literally turned inside out and given a mirror version of the same circumstances, these people make the same selfless choices. How is that not hopeful? How is that not progressive? This is pretty deep sci-fi. There’s hope that no matter how horrific things get in the universe, the (forgive me) power of love triumphs. How many TOS episodes have this very theme?

KIRK: Give me your hand. Your hand. (she does) Now feel that. Human flesh against human flesh. We’re the same. We share the same history, the same heritage, the same lives. We’re tied together beyond any untying. Man or woman, it makes no difference. We’re human. We couldn’t escape from each other even if we wanted to. That’s how you do it, Lieutenant. By remembering who and what you are. A bit of flesh and blood afloat in a universe without end. The only thing that’s truly yours is the rest of humanity. That’s where our duty lies. Do you understand me?

357. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

Disney CFO: ‘Star Wars’ Will Follow Marvel Strategy

In a sign that Disney will not veer far from “The Avengers” blueprint, the studio has said that it will release a new “Star Wars” film each year beginning in 2015, which will be comprised of a new trilogy that follows up on the original six films and a series of standalone projects.

http://www.thewrap.com/disney-cfo-star-wars-will-follow-marvel-strategy/

358. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

351. Curious Cadet – December 10, 2013

My concern is that STID had some great moments individually too. The problem with STID is it felt disconnected, like a bunch of ideas loosely strung together. Perhaps Orci being the sole writer will be able to better focus the story and make it a cohesive whole.

***

I agree. All of Scotty was wonderful, and that scene where Kirk appears to be buying everything Marcus is telling him about Khan and then flips poles as soon as Marcus is off the screen.

That’s my favorite moment of STID. I thought Kirk really was buying it and then—NOPE!

359. Vultan - December 10, 2013

#299

I wouldn’t mind reading it either, dmduncan. Sounds good. But (in case you haven’t already done it), you should probably register it with the WGA before posting it in a public forum. Just to be on the safe side.

360. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

355. Hugh Hoyland – December 10, 2013

299. dmduncan – December 10, 2013

Great, I enjoy reading other peoples scripts/ideas and look forward to giving it a look.

***

Hey I appreciate it. If other fans can enjoy what I wrote, then that gives me some satisfaction. I don’t want it to go to waste on my hard drive because it’ll never be produced.

And given the title news of this threat I don’t think there’s a need for me to redact a word of it any longer.

But it will show who bothers to read it why I’m making the criticisms of STID that I am regarding Kirk. I think ST.09 raised a problem that STID tried to address but really didn’t.

My treatment tackles the same problem and, I think, solves it.

361. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

359. Vultan – December 10, 2013

Good! The more the merrier I will be. And I like feedback, even if you tear me to shreds (hopefully with respect if it is necessary at all) I will regard it as something I needed to hear. But I don’t think that will happen.

As far as registering it? Not sure I can do that with a treatment.

362. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

356. Kirk1701 – December 10, 2013

Cygnus-X1

I can’t believe I’m getting drawn into this argument as much as this. But you’re missing the point. The point is why are you guys spending so much time bitching about a movie you didn’t care for?

***

That shouldn’t be too hard for you to figure out.

You don’t want to be in this argument, but you’re being “drawn into” it anyway. Why? Answer that and it’s probably similar to the one you’re asking about why we’re critiquing STID.

363. Ahmed - December 10, 2013

@ 361. dmduncan – December 10, 2013

“As far as registering it? Not sure I can do that with a treatment.”

Yes you can :)

You can register a screenplay, teleplay, pitch, treatment, and/or synopsis.
check these two links:

==========================
BE SURE TO REGISTER YOUR MATERIAL.

http://www.brassbrad.com/register.htm

The Writers Guild of America, West Registry FAQs
http://www.wgawregistry.org/webrss/regfaqs.html#quest30

==========================
Good luck

364. dmduncan - December 10, 2013

356. Kirk1701 – December 10, 2013

KIRK: Give me your hand. Your hand. (she does) Now feel that. Human flesh against human flesh. We’re the same. We share the same history, the same heritage, the same lives. We’re tied together beyond any untying. Man or woman, it makes no difference. We’re human. We couldn’t escape from each other even if we wanted to. That’s how you do it, Lieutenant. By remembering who and what you are. A bit of flesh and blood afloat in a universe without end. The only thing that’s truly yours is the rest of humanity. That’s where our duty lies. Do you understand me?

***

I’m glad you posted that because reading those words I cannot IMAGINE this new Kirk saying them. Too reflective for this new Kirk. Those words are LIGHT YEARS from the kind of maturity Kirk needs to have. Why…it’s almost as if you’d have to go to a different UNIVERSE to find a Kirk who can believably read that.

365. MJ - December 10, 2013

@364

Part of the equation here though is that nuKirk didn’t have his dad around in all of his formative years. That makes a huge difference between the two Kirks.

366. MJ - December 10, 2013

LOL :-)

Just waiting for someone to chime in with support for Nimoy to direct next…..

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
353. Dswynne – December 10, 2013
Just hire Jonathan Frakes for Q’s sake! He and Lavar Burton, acting as unit director, can get this thing done.

367. K-7 - December 10, 2013

#366

MJ, how about a directing team of Garrett Wang and George Takei?

OH, MY !!!!

368. K-7 - December 10, 2013

I ran into Bob Orci today. He told me that he and JJ are sick of Q and all the omnicient characters in Trek like Apollo, etc, always being played white guys. So for Trek 2016, they want Q to be played by a female Punjabi Sikh, which will also have a reverse-Khan effect, by giving Indians a Star Trek character that has more positive traits than TOS Khan had.

369. MJ - December 10, 2013

@368

You stole that joke from me, dude. :-)

370. ironhyde - December 11, 2013

You know what would be cool? Is instead of trying to make us figure out the team behind the movie using hearsay and speculation, JJ and Co. kept us updated. I guarantee it won’t spoil the movie’s big reveal to tell us flat-out who the writers are and give us some idea why they were chosen. They are unknowns, and I do like Kurtzman, so I’m sad to see him go. But I’m glad they haven’t totally dismantled everyone who said they’d stick with Trek and left Orci in. I think Orci genuinely loves Trek. Just stop hiding guys, and release a quick blurb about who you’ve added to the team and why. It’d be nice to feel respected again as a fan by the Supreme Court after the Khan disaster\lie-fest.

371. Michael Hall - December 11, 2013

“So learn from the greats. Francis Copolla was often confused and unsure of what he was doing on Apocalypse Now. He was making himself nuts. The film was a personal journey for him, not ONE frakkin JOB squeezed between 9 others.”

Well, I don’t expect of the “ST 2016″ writers the sort of soul-searing journey Coppola undertook, though it gave the world a masterpiece. I would appreciate, though, the kind of maturity and self-discipline that was repeatedly demonstrated by the producers of a 1960s space opera–you can read about this on just about every page of “These Are The Voyages”–who insisted, even in the face of crushing deadlines, tight budgets, and network censorship, that the stories being told make some kind of sense. That would be nice.

372. crazydaystrom - December 11, 2013

371. Michael Hall
“…Coppola…gave the world a masterpiece.”

Oh YES he did! Apocalypse Now is my personal #1 favorite film of all time! (2001: A Space Odyssey #2, BTW). So I couldn’t agree with you more on that.

“…I would appreciate, though, the kind of maturity and self-discipline that was repeatedly demonstrated by the producers of a 1960s space opera–you can read about this on just about every page of “These Are The Voyages”…

PLEASE take this to heart Bob Orci! My hopes are again high. Knock it out of the park for the 50th!

373. Kirk1701 - December 11, 2013

dmduncan

I give up. *facepalm

374. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 11, 2013

dmduncan. Where’s the PDF?

If I am impressed with your story, I will pen my own and publish for you guys to review.

375. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 11, 2013

If I may be so bold as to offer a creative contribution.

376. dmduncan - December 11, 2013

365. MJ – December 10, 2013

Yeah, and I realize that which is why I didn’t have a problem with Kirk’s portrayal in ST.09. But the thing is, these guys have PROVEN that when they WANT to go from A to B (and in this case B would be Kirk maturing into the guy we know) they do it FAST. By the end of ST.09 he became captain—driving enough fan discontent that they responded to it in the plot of STID, and in STID he wasn’t dead for 10 minutes of screen time before he came pipsqueaking back to life.

So what the slowness of this Kirk’s progress means to me is that it’s not high on their to-do list. They’re having a great time giving their favorite character the hero’s role, which 9 times out of 10 you can identify in an action movie by who “gets the girl.” And so, absent me and a few others of us complaining, I’m not sure they will speed him up a few miles-per-hour in the next movie. I’m not sure they’ll do it even WITH us complaining.

(And I think the worst thing fans can do if they didn’t like something is to BS them in this forum and say everything was peachy so they can put their hands together and do the humility bow giving us a few namastes.)

377. dswynne - December 11, 2013

@366 (MJ): All joking aside, I think it is ridiculous that it is taking this long for a director for the next film to be selected, which means that Paramount is micro-managing this next production (since JJ Abrams is on SW now). One of the things I read about Cornish being hesitant about taking up the directing chores is precisely because of his need to be both flexible and independent of studio influence; same with the director of “District 9″. And it doesn’t help that nuTrek haters have been vocal enough to influence Paramount’s desire to micro-manage the next film, given the fact that the 50th anniversary of Star Trek will be a make-or-break time for the franchise. Personally, I chose Frakes and Burton because they are competent directors (and Nemoy is retired, at any rate), and Frakes, in particular, is a friend of Abrams. But, we will see what happens come Spring 2014, when the script for the next film is suppose to be finished at the first draft stage.

378. dmduncan - December 11, 2013

371. Michael Hall – December 11, 2013

I do. More people need to go “nuts” before they can realize they weren’t “sane” before. Otherwise they just “toy” with the idea of going sane.

But it’s very unlikely that sort of goodness will happen to them because they are mostly in control of their climate of comfort and privilege.

Well, Bob probably is, anyway. The two new guys are probably secretly biting their nails about this.

But another thing is, what do the new guys have to write about? It would be interesting to know something about them. What kind of life experiences have they had? Have they gone “up” any “rivers” at all??? Because you write about what you know, and if all you know is movies then that’s what you are going to regurgitate—writers writing about experiences they’ve never had except for on screen in other people’s movie stories.

Quite apart from the time you spend on the craft itself, you have to have gone “up” a few “rivers” to have something to use the craft for.

379. dmduncan - December 11, 2013

374. TrekMadeMeWonder – December 11, 2013

Thanks for the interest. PDF is not up yet.

I made an offer to Matt to see if he would link to it in a TM post because I would like as wide an audience for it as possible. I want people to enjoy what I wrote as a sequel to ST.09. I don’t want the effort to have gone to waste sitting on my hard drive for my eyes only.

I’m waiting for him to get back to me. But my waiting period is timed. ;-)

I’d be interested to check out what you came up with as well, however.

380. I am not Herbert (retired) - December 11, 2013

Cornish was not driven away by the studio…

…he sees the OBVIOUS pitfalls of working w/ boborci…

Who’s fault is lack of director? JJ & boborci.

381. I am not Herbert (retired) - December 11, 2013

371. Michael Hall

” I would appreciate… …stories being told make some kind of sense. That would be nice.”

FULL AGREEMENT

382. MJB - December 11, 2013

380. I am not Herbert (retired) – December 11, 2013
“Cornish was not driven away by the studio…

…he sees the OBVIOUS pitfalls of working w/ boborci…

Who’s fault is lack of director? JJ & boborci.”

=============================================
How do you know this? Are you an employee of Paramount, Bad Robot or K/O PP?
Do you believe in facts?

383. I am not Herbert (retired) - December 11, 2013

…been watching from the shadows for years now… ;-)

384. LogicalLeopard - December 11, 2013

338. Ahmed – December 10, 2013
@330. LogicalLeopard

“I’ve seen interviews with creators who say they get on the internet occasionally and see what the fans are talking about. Yet, I’ve never seen someone actually do it.”

J. Michael Straczynski, creator of Babylon 5, did it way back in 1991 on Usenet, GEnie & CompuServe before the days of the web as we know it now. And he still doing that on his personal Facebook page these days.

*************************

That’s good to hear. Perhaps thats one reason why B5 was able to hold its own, because the fanbase felt connected to the writer. I’m not sure, I never really cared for it myself.

But for those who were thinking that JMS should get involved in the next Star Trek movie, I don’t know if he ever would, because as I remember, he accused the producers of Star Trek of stealing his pitch for a series and making it into DS9. He ended up developing the series himself into Babylon 5, and there were some similarties, I believe…

385. Ahmed - December 11, 2013

@377. dswynne

“Personally, I chose Frakes and Burton because they are competent directors (and Nemoy is retired, at any rate), and Frakes, in particular, is a friend of Abrams.”

It would be great if they manage to get Frakes.

“But, we will see what happens come Spring 2014, when the script for the next film is suppose to be finished at the first draft stage.”

Where did you hear that ? Did Bob mentioned this somewhere here or in an interview elsewhere ?

386. LogicalLeopard - December 11, 2013

335. dmduncan – December 10, 2013
315. LogicalLeopard – December 10, 2013

It wasn’t the worst movie ever. It’s like I said, 3 out of 5 stars for me, but also like I said, Gordon Ramsay is exactly right.

*****************************

I see where Ramsay is coming from, it is very important to listen to criticism. However, I think you can also say that it’s important to listen to what you did right too, so you can keep doing it. If you don’t know that’s what the customer is after, you might misjudge it’s importance. For Gordon Ramsay, that might be discontinuing a menu item that was a big draw in favor of some “new and improved” menu item. In Star Trek’s case that might be…well….in my opinion….not concentrating on those emotional scenes that helped us to squarely identify with the characters, not just watch them. I tell you, I didn’t know where I was after I saw the beginning to ST09. I’m thinking, wait a minute? Is this Star Trek? Other than Spock dying and Kirk falling off his chair, I don’t think I could remember any moments equally gripping.

387. Michael Hall - December 11, 2013

“I do. More people need to go “nuts” before they can realize they weren’t “sane” before. Otherwise they just “toy” with the idea of going sane.”

Well, maybe so. The old argument about the first couple of generations of filmmakers being influenced by the events they themselves had lived, as opposed to the TV and films they had watched, may obtain as well.

But in reading the nonfiction works about TOS’ production, you really get the sense of how important it was to the powers-that-be that the plotlines of these episodes added-up–never mind that the shows were certainly looked upon as disposable entertainment, not Holy Writ that fans would be writing about fifty years into the future. Even the treatment for a purely comedic episode like “The Trouble With Tribbles” could be the springboard for a series of lengthy memos from someone like Bob Justman, laying out the logical flaws of the story in blistering detail. It wasn’t about love of the genre or subject matter, either–most of these guys didn’t know from science fiction, and could care less–but about pride in their craft.

Bob Orci is clearly a talented guy. But while I’m not familiar with his work outside of Trek, for my money his primary weakness in these two films has been a willingness to jettison logic and common sense for mere affect, a predilection abetted (and even outright encouraged) by his director. So we get the Enterprise being constructed in an Iowa cornfield, or hiding under an ocean, not because it made sense or was consistent with Trek history–or even necessarily advanced a story point–but because it looked “cool.” Same with Spock’s being able to observe Vulcan’s destruction with his naked eye, or Nero’s motivation for genocide, or Khan’s ethnicity, or the whole “what’s hidden in the 72 torpedos” subplot of STID, or a dozen other things I could toss off without working up a sweat.

Not to sound too kinky, but what these guys need is discipline, a Bob Justman or Gene Coon to keep them in check and let them know when they’ve crossed the line into foolishness. And while a Great Art Trek film would be a wonderful thing, at this point I’d gladly settle for solid craft.

388. Cygnus-X1 - December 11, 2013

356. Kirk1701 – December 10, 2013

Paragraphs 2-4 of your post have nothing to do with me or my complaints about STID (nor are they relevant to the vast majority of the complaints about the movie). But I will address your first paragraph:

—The point is why are you guys spending so much time bitching about a movie you didn’t care for?—

Several reasons, including, but not limited to: (1) It’s fun talking Trek, regardless of whether that talk is laudatory or critical; (2) It’s informative and somewhat educational with respect to the crafts of story-telling and filmmaking; (3) It’s interesting to exchange ideas with people regarding a topic in which one has a vested interest; (4) There’s always the possibility that some of the criticism will make it to the decision-makers of the next Trek project which, as a consequence, will avoid and improve upon the criticized issues and thereby turn out better quality and more enjoyable product.

—A SOMEWHAT CLUNKY PLOT IS NOT A PERSONAL INSULT!! The writers aren’t going out of their way to piss you off! They believe they’re making a good picture.—

I know, and I’ve said that here on several occasions. The writers of STID, to some degree, made the kind of movie that they would have wanted to see. And to some degree, the writers were bound by fiduciary and economic concerns. However, it can be offensive to one’s sensibilities when, after a long period of myriad iterations of the same complaints and pleading to the filmmakers not to repeat the things complained of, they go ahead and repeat those things anyway.

It can also be offensive to one’s sensibilities to see art in which one has a vested interest (and which has become culturally important) despoiled. As a somewhat exaggerated analogy, imagine say… Brittany Spears putting out albums for many years to come which were exclusively comprised of Beatles’ covers (or, if you prefer, some other artist that moves you). Imagine an entire generation of kids growing up associating classics like “Strawberry Fields Forever” and “Hey Jude” with Brittany Spears’ inferior singing. Q: “Hey, do you like the song Hey Jude?” A: “No, I don’t like Brittany Spears.” Although, in the case of Trek, it’s even worse because it’s not just a body of work being “re-imagined,” but a franchise being taken in a different and lower-brow direction. It’d be like Brittany Spears releasing new songs which were sold as Beatles songs as “…based upon the music of the Beatles,” for example: The new Beatles album entitled “Sh*ting on the Shoulders of Giants,” performed by Brittany Spears. If you’re a Beatles fan, you’re most likely outraged: “THAT’S NOT THE BEATLES! THAT’S NOT WHAT THE BEATLES WERE ABOUT!”

—The endless whining just makes you the most insufferable group of spoiled brats.—

What can I tell you…don’t suffer through it.

—You guys still pay the money. Many of you went many times just to bitch at it. If you don’t like it, why waste your money and your breath?—

I don’t know anyone who went JUST to bitch about it. Personally, I saw it twice in the theater because I enjoyed the visuals and the thrillride of it, but, as Mr. Plinkett put it, it was a guilty pleasure.

—What do you get for complaining?—

Hopefully a change of the direction in which the franchise is being taken and better Trek product in the future, or at least, a discontinuation of unsatisfactory Trek product.

389. Ahmed - December 11, 2013

@384. LogicalLeopard –

“But for those who were thinking that JMS should get involved in the next Star Trek movie, I don’t know if he ever would, because as I remember, he accused the producers of Star Trek of stealing his pitch for a series and making it into DS9. He ended up developing the series himself into Babylon 5, and there were some similarties, I believe…”

Actually, JMS with Bryce Zabel wrote a treatment for rebooting Star Trek in 2004 but Paramount rejected it

Star Trek: Re-Boot the Universe
A Proposal For: Re-Imagining the First Five Year Mission

http://bztv.typepad.com/newsviews/files/ST2004Reboot.pdf

As for the similarities between B5 & DS9, the fact is that JMS submitted his B5 script first to Paramount in 1989:

“J. Michael Straczynski began working on the Babylon 5 concept in 1986. In 1987, he began pitching it, with a script for the pilot and conceptual artwork, to Hollywood executives. He pitched the program (with pilot script, artwork, series bible, character descriptions, and synopses for approximately twenty-two episodes) to Paramount executives in 1989. The series was greenlit by Warner Bros. in November 1991.

Also in 1991, Brandon Tartikoff, then newly-appointed as chairman of Paramount Pictures, approached Rick Berman and asked him to develop a new Star Trek television series. Berman and Michael Piller discussed plans for the series with Gene Roddenberry prior to his death in October 1991. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was officially greenlit in January 1992. Filming on the Babylon 5 pilot, The Gathering, was completed before filming began on Deep Space Nine’s pilot, “Emissary”, but Babylon 5’s post-production took longer, so that “Emissary” aired on 3 January 1993, and The Gathering aired seven weeks later, on 22 February.

Straczynski has suggested that Paramount TV development executives may have “guided” the development of Deep Space Nine with the intention of co-opting Babylon 5. He has, however, been careful to point out that he does not believe that Berman or Piller were aware of the Babylon 5 concept when they were developing Deep Space Nine, or that they deliberately ripped off Babylon 5.”

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Babylon_5#Babylon_5_and_Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine

390. Red Dead Ryan - December 11, 2013

Always fascinated by fans clamoring for the return of Frakes, Nimoy, et al as director of the next movie. I mean, really, c’mon, are you interested in a great movie, or just another fan-oriented film?

“Thinking outside of the box” is clearly NOT an ability Trekkies are known for having.

Sometimes I wonder if Trekkies might just be the biggest stumbling block preventing the franchise from growing worldwide and expanding its horizons.

391. dmduncan - December 11, 2013

387. Michael Hall – December 11, 2013

Not to sound too kinky, but what these guys need is discipline, a Bob Justman or Gene Coon to keep them in check and let them know when they’ve crossed the line into foolishness. And while a Great Art Trek film would be a wonderful thing, at this point I’d gladly settle for solid craft.

***

I agree and I don’t see how two new young guys can be that for Bob. What I see instead is the danger of them sensing what Bob likes, wants to do, and going along with it because he’s their boss and they want a career.

And the two things the news guys are connected with are a reboot of an old story and an adaptation of a graphic novel—another existing story.

And that is what Bob does. Bob could really use a complement, not a pair of budget duplicates.

392. Ahmed - December 11, 2013

@ 389. Red Dead Ryan – December 11, 2013

“Always fascinated by fans clamoring for the return of Frakes, Nimoy, et al as director of the next movie. I mean, really, c’mon, are you interested in a great movie, or just another fan-oriented film?”

Ask JJ why he brought back Lawrence Kasdan to co-writer for SW 7 ?

The last time Kasdan has anything to do with Star Wars was way back in 1983.

393. dmduncan - December 11, 2013

386. LogicalLeopard – December 11, 2013

I think what Gordon Ramsay is saying is not that he doesn’t want to know he’s been successful, but that his most important positive feedback comes from the success of his work.

People blow smoke up your a** all the time. People are social beings who say things to each other to get along and for various other reasons. And you can take it all and do the namaste bow as if each time someone pays you an insincere compliment it’s true, or you can look for signs of success that insincere words can’t control.

I’m like Ramsay. When I ask people for feedback on something I often ask two or three times, looking them in the eye and saying things like “do you really mean that or are you just trying not to hurt my feelings—because I can take the truth about it if it’s not flattering.”

I actually look for the things that are wrong in what I do. People should understand that about me to know why I say the things I do here about other people’s work.

394. Silvereyes - December 11, 2013

@389 Red Dead Ryan

You make good points. I see no need to bring back Frakes et al either. Trekkies by definition cannot think outside the box and most definitely that Trekkies are a stumbling block to progress for ST…

395. Red Dead Ryan - December 11, 2013

Jonathan Frakes and Leonard Nimoy are both actors first, and their directorial opportunities came as the result of them both starring as popular characters on two hit shows in the same franchise.

Lawrence Kasdan has primarily been a writer, and so he doesn’t carry the same baggage as Nimoy and Frakes would be carrying today if they were to write/direct the next movie. Also, Kasdan will not under the same amount of scrutiny from fans, nor will he be the spokesman for the next “Star Wars” films. In other words, he won’t be at conventions consulting with fans or asking for feedback, which would most likely occur in the case of Nimoy or Frakes.

Apples and oranges.

396. Ahmed - December 11, 2013

@395. Red Dead Ryan

You are forgetting that Jonathan Frakes directed “First Contact”, one of the most successful TNG movies. If Paramount is looking for a cheaper director, then they should hire Frakes.

As for Leonard Nimoy, he is way too old to direct movies anyway.

397. Michael Hall - December 11, 2013

@ 389. Red Dead Ryan – December 11, 2013

“Always fascinated by fans clamoring for the return of Frakes, Nimoy, et al as director of the next movie.”

Well, count me out of the clamor. Frakes–sort of the Ron Howard of genre directors–turned out to have a surprisingly good eye for camera angles and editorial, but is not a concept person. Give him a good script and he’ll make a good film–but the same can be said of thousands of other directors both in and out of Hollywood. Nimoy has roughly the opposite problem–his direction of the two Trek movies he was responsible for I never found all that impressive, but he was responsible for many of the good (and a few bad) ideas in them, as well as those in Trek 6, where he served strictly as a producer. Were he to return, that would probably be the best role for him.

398. Curious Cadet - December 11, 2013

@387. Michael Hall,
“Bob Orci is clearly a talented guy. But while I’m not familiar with his work outside of Trek…”

Here’s the thing, if you looked Orci up on IMDB, from looking at his major writing credits, he might be the last guy you would hire to write for Star Trek.

Spiderman
Transformers 1 & 2
Mission Impossible 3
Hawii Five-0
Zorro
Hurcules
Zena

399. Michael Hall - December 11, 2013

389. Ahmed – December 11, 2013

Thanks for posting the link to the JMS reboot proposal. As someone who always had an easier time admiring B5 than loving it, I was pretty skeptical as to whether he could keep the two universes distinct and separate, Trek’s POV being much more sunny and optimistic (and the humor much less cheeky). The “central mystery” of the five-year mission still strikes me as an unnecessary embellishment, not to mention more than a little reminiscent of CRUSADE’s talking black box. But there’s no denying Joe’s love of the genre or his ability to handle complex character and story arcs, even if the playoffs often fell somewhat flat. Given the way things have panned out, I’d happily turn back time to give him his shot.

400. Yanks - December 11, 2013

Honestly I would prefer JJ direct Star Trek 3.

Will the new movie look different?

401. Gary 8.5 - December 11, 2013

This question is for everybody .
Out of all of the directors who have NOT directed Trek before ,
Who would you choose and why?

402. Stephan - December 11, 2013

Brad Bird.

Because of the Iron Giant.

403. Michael Hall - December 11, 2013

Bird would be frakkin awesome. Never happen, though.

404. crazydaystrom - December 11, 2013

Loved First Contact. Big fan of Nimoy in general. But this Trekkie does NOT want Frakes or Nimoy directing the next movie. Mainly because I don’t see either being stylistically compatible with JJ’s films. I could be wrong and maybe they could. But for me it’s important the next one isn’t radically different from the last two. Better than they were, because I DO have issues with them, STID in particular, but not drastically, shockingly different. I’d like the the three films to amount to a ‘recognizable trilogy’. But with the next one far and away the best one.

405. Marja - December 11, 2013

Two. Guys. White, blonde, GUYS.

What, no female writers in Hollywood? No other writers of color? Is Bob O the O-nly one?

406. Ahmed - December 11, 2013

@ 405. Marja – December 11, 2013

“Is Bob O the O-nly one?”

He is the ONE :)

407. crazydaystrom - December 11, 2013

There have been whispers…rumors…of another

The stuff of legends.

408. Jim, London - December 11, 2013

Its Treks 50th Anniversary soon and i would like to think Paramount would pull out the works to celebrate it. Controversial suggestions for a director but i wonder if they have considered someone like Robert Zemeckis or Duncan Jones (Director of Moon)

409. Ahmed - December 11, 2013

@ 407. crazydaystrom – December 11, 2013

“There have been whispers…rumors…of another…

The stuff of legends.”

lol

410. dmduncan - December 11, 2013

401. Gary 8.5 – December 11, 2013

Guillermo Del Toro. Because Pacific Rim was awesome.

Francis Ford Copolla. Because he’s still the most visionary director America has who also knows how to do Hollywood movies.

Drew Goddard. Because Cabin in the Woods is a fun movie that’s SMART.

Antoine Fuqua. One word: Shooter.

Edgar Wright. Because he’s got a clever style, and his movies are intelligent and fun.

Luc Besson. He makes a fun action movie with a point. The Professional is one of my favorite movies ever.

Kathryn Bigelow. Because she will make a Star Trek that will kick her ex husband’s next Avatar in the nutsack.

411. Michael Hall - December 11, 2013

410. dmduncan – December 11, 2013

That’s ‘Coppola’ to you, soldier. An interesting choice that has about as much chance of happening as, say, Fredo Corleone getting the job. The man who directed four of the greatest films in American history hasn’t been a bankable commodity in decades, and even if he was, I doubt very much that he would have even the slightest interest in playing in J.J. Abrams’ sandbox, let alone Gene Roddenberry’s.

412. Hugh Hoyland - December 11, 2013

“401. Gary 8.5 – December 11, 2013
This question is for everybody .
Out of all of the directors who have NOT directed Trek before ,
Who would you choose and why?”

Well I’ve never directed a Star Trek movie before but I’m willing to give it a try. :] (Will shoot it on 70mm film)

413. Hugh Hoyland - December 11, 2013

I would love to see Coppola direct it. In fact (I think) he was on the studio wish list for STTMP.

Maybe the director of ‘Oblivion/Tron:Legacy” (Cant think of his name at the moment)

414. dmduncan - December 11, 2013

411. Michael Hall – December 11, 2013

Yeah, I know. I’ve watched all of his new movies and he’s just interested in making those personal films. But if he could be coaxed out of retirement from making Hollywood stuff, I think he could turn out a great movie. His mind is still younger now than most of the younger directors turning out formula movies. He’s still thinking and doing things differently than everybody else. I doubt he’s forgotten how to make Hollywood movies. He just doesn’t want to do them anymore.

But he’s my fantasy pick. I LIKED the SF movie Supernova and he is credited as a co director on that film but it can’t really be considered one of his own. Still, I’d like to know which parts of it he is responsible for, because some parts of it are wonderful.

415. Gary 8.5 - December 11, 2013

413. I think Oblivions Director was Joseph Kosinski.
That is an interesting choice .
I liked that movie .

416. dswynne - December 11, 2013

@385 (Ahmed): A first draft script usually takes 3 to 6 months to complete before a rewrite. If the new guys are on board now, most likely they would get together with Orci after the holidays, and then get to get work (among other projects, no less). I’m simply speculating that we should have a director once the first draft has been outlined, in order to get the chosen director a chance to read and put in his or her input in the script. Then, that’s when the rewrites begin. Ultimately, if Paramount wants a summer release in 2016, the final draft of the script has to be ready by the end of next year, so that the production schedule can be finalized for 2015…at the earliest. Hence, a director has to be chosen by next spring. That’s all.

417. Vultan - December 11, 2013

Directed by Kenneth Branagh with a script by Nick Meyer. Because I want a movie with nothing but the characters quoting Shakespeare for two hours!

Seriously though, I think Branagh did a good job with Thor. At the least the outer space stuff was entertaining.

418. Vultan - December 11, 2013

Correction: At least…

419. MJ - December 11, 2013

@392

“Ask JJ why he brought back Lawrence Kasdan to co-writer for SW 7 ? The last time Kasdan has anything to do with Star Wars was way back in 1983.”

Ahmed, you make it sound like this is already a proven benefit? I have major doubts about how good this new Star Wars movie is going to do. I certainly don’t think you can already hold up the “bringing Kasdan back after 30 years” thing here as proof that Star Trek should do that???

You are drawing a conclusion here without any evidence yet that this worked???

420. MJ - December 11, 2013

My prediction: Cornish will never direct anything significant in his career, and he will go to his grave regretting that he got “stuck up” on refusing the offer to direct ST-2016.

421. Marja - December 12, 2013

410 Duncan, Luc Besson! “The Professional” and also “Diva”! If you’ve not seen it I highly recommend it. All of your suggestions look great. I hope the studio doesn’t play cheap with directors.

417 Vultan, I agree, Branagh’s “Thor” was visually amazing and he drew out the characters very well.

420 MJ, Did Cornish turn them DOWN? Whut!!
Or did they figure he just wouldn’t do…?

I’m a little bummed that there are two writers who don’t even have IMDb profiles … I hope they are very, very good. They sure look young.

And blonde.

“Duuude, where’s my script?”

I keed, I keed.

422. Brett L. - December 12, 2013

I guess corporate obsession with the 18-35 year old demographic no longer applies just to the target audience. So much for experience.

423. ST:EXP - December 12, 2013

Is this a recent photo of the writers? It looks like a photo from a Kansas high school yearbook circa 1992.

Just joking. Relax.

I meant 1993.

424. crazydaystrom - December 12, 2013

421. Marja
“I’m a little bummed that there are two writers who don’t even have IMDb profiles … I hope they are very, very good. They sure look young.

And blonde.

“Duuude, where’s my script?””

LOL!
I just hope those guys are smart and have ‘vision’. And that they’ll truly be collaborators and not lagdog-yes men-functionaries who aren’t afraid to speak up if and when the emperor’s showing a little too much skin.

But I say- Give us an awesome 50th guys!!

And I have- Fingers crossed!

425. crazydaystrom - December 12, 2013

423. ST:EXP
” Relax.
I meant 1993.”

Hahaha!

426. Mad Mann - December 12, 2013

Is there a chance Rupert Wyatt might still direct?

427. AdamTrek - December 12, 2013

Bryan Singer?

Nah!

=A=

428. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 12, 2013

Dick Cheney for Director of ST13.

He was the inspiration for STiD. No?

429. Anthony Thompson - December 12, 2013

421. Marja

Wrong Frenchman for ‘Diva’, sweetie. That was Jean-Jacques Beineix, not Luc Besson.

430. Anthony Thompson - December 12, 2013

Watching the 4th season of ‘Enterprise’ for the first time recently, I’ve come to believe that it ranks with TOS seasons 1 and 2 as the best of Trek television. Great writing / stories. That team understood Trek. I’d love to see that level of writing applied to ST3. STID just wasn’t very interesting / involving.

431. crazydaystrom - December 12, 2013

430. Anthony Thompson
“Watching the 4th season of ‘Enterprise’ for the first time recently, I’ve come to believe that it ranks with TOS seasons 1 and 2 as the best of Trek television.”

There were seasons of TNG that were even better than that 4th of ENT IMO. But-

” Great writing / stories. That team understood Trek. I’d love to see that level of writing applied to ST3.”

Yes, YES and YES!

432. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 12, 2013

Agreed. Let’s try and give the Enterprise crew that 2nd chance.

433. crazydaystrom - December 12, 2013

Several folks here have suggested Frakes or Nimoy. Again I say no to that BUT I would love to have ENT’s Manny Coto involved in some capacity with STID. And/or INTS (the Inevitable New Trek Show).

434. LogicalLeopard - December 12, 2013

389. Ahmed – December 11, 2013

Thanks for the info! I think I read about that debate in something like Starlog or a similar publication back around the time it happened. I never heard anything else about it, but I’m glad to hear that it wasn’t plagiarism, apparently.

435. LogicalLeopard - December 12, 2013

393. dmduncan – December 11, 2013
386. LogicalLeopard – December 11, 2013

I’m like Ramsay. When I ask people for feedback on something I often ask two or three times, looking them in the eye and saying things like “do you really mean that or are you just trying not to hurt my feelings—because I can take the truth about it if it’s not flattering.”

I actually look for the things that are wrong in what I do. People should understand that about me to know why I say the things I do here about other people’s work.

*************

True, the danger with compliments is that people think they’re obligatory. We always hear, “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all”, which makes us tend to want to seek out a nice thing to say to people. And in other instances, it’s just blowing smoke. There’s a difference between praise and a sincere compliment, I think. And it is good to give twice as much attention to criticism, because that’s what helps you to improve.

436. Red Dead Ryan - December 12, 2013

I wonder if Cornish “Game Hen” foolishly played (and subsequently) lost a “game of chicken” with Paramount in regards to salary/production demands after which he then “flew the coop”?

437. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

@ 420. MJ – December 11, 2013

“My prediction: Cornish will never direct anything significant in his career, and he will go to his grave regretting that he got “stuck up” on refusing the offer to direct ST-2016.”

What ??? Just because he refused to direct Star Trek doesn’t mean he “will never direct anything significant in his career”.

That is absurd.

438. SkiesSeven - December 12, 2013

@Anthony Thompson

“Watching the 4th season of ‘Enterprise’ for the first time recently, I’ve come to believe that it ranks with TOS seasons 1 and 2 as the best of Trek television. Great writing / stories.”

———

I also appreciate ENT, but let’s be clear about how the show faltered as a Star Trek. It began with low ratings in the first two seasons that prompted the producers to shake things up and take a different direction by season 3, which led to the infamous Xindi-arc. Beginning just around season 3 this Star Trek started exhibiting questionable storytelling, presentation, and characterization. All signs of a show that jumped the shark.

Enterprise went from mostly abiding by Star Trek’s premise (exploration, optimism, everyone getting along just fine) to a show that became militaristic, and full of the kind of interpersonal conflict, mischaracterizations, and pessimism that Roddenberry frequently opposed.

What was the real reason behind these changes? The answer is post-9/11 trauma and it clearly reflected in the writing because if you go back and watch season 3 you’ll see how xenophobic the writers outlook had become at that point. You had lizards, ants, and whales plotting the destruction of humanity. Then bit by bit we saw Archer lose his morals by commiting torture, manipulation, marooning an innocent species, sentencing Trip’s clone to death, among other things. Not to mention how sexualized T’pol had become.

The premise went from exploration to senseless war in the name of saving humanity. It was only when it got to season 4 that the show started to pick up the pace again, making some effort to restore the damage, and SOME of those episodes were really good, but by then it was too late to save it from cancellation. Enterprise desecrated Gene’s vision in season 3, so in my opinion it deserved to get canned despite the effort in the final season.

In a way, STID risked making the same mistake as ENT. Going all dark and edgy, using revenge/conflict as the main theme, focusing so much on war, rather than peace. Although there was just enough social commentary in STID to distinguise it from the average revenge film, thus redeeming it to some extent. It nonetheless suffered the same pessimism, and had more than a fair amount of interpersonal conflict and mischaracterizations.

439. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

@ 419. MJ – December 11, 2013

“Ahmed, you make it sound like this is already a proven benefit? I have major doubts about how good this new Star Wars movie is going to do. I certainly don’t think you can already hold up the “bringing Kasdan back after 30 years” thing here as proof that Star Trek should do that???”

We will find out for sure in 2015 but if Abrams thought bringing Kasdan will benefit SW, then he could do the same thing for ST & bring back someone like Ron Moore to cowriter or Frakes to direct.

If they are going to hire a cheap director, then at least they should consider someone familiar with Star Trek & Frakes fit that very well.

440. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

@ 416. dswynne – December 11, 2013

“@385 (Ahmed): A first draft script usually takes 3 to 6 months to complete before a rewrite. If the new guys are on board now, most likely they would get together with Orci after the holidays, and then get to get work (among other projects, no less). I’m simply speculating that we should have a director once the first draft has been outlined, in order to get the chosen director a chance to read and put in his or her input in the script.”

That makes sense. Hopefully, Bob & the new guys will not spend a whole year just to finish the script !

441. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

421. Marja – December 12, 2013

“420 MJ, Did Cornish turn them DOWN? Whut!!
Or did they figure he just wouldn’t do…?”

Variety reported that Joe Cornish will not directing ST XIII. Since this was the second time they offered him the job, the first one was in May, it is safe to say that Cornish was the one who turned them down, again.

It may have something to do with the offer, his scheduling or simply because there is no script yet. We don’t have any information yet.

442. crazydaystrom - December 12, 2013

436. Red Dead Ryan
“I wonder if Cornish “Game Hen” foolishly played (and subsequently) lost a “game of chicken” with Paramount in regards to salary/production demands after which he then “flew the coop”?”

OR

Maybe he found out he’d been playfully coined “an animal pursued and hunted” and wasn’t exactly game about that?/b>. ;-)

But seriously it’ll probably be a little while, if not quite a while before we learn exactly the reasons. Too bad. I was happy about the possibilty.

443. crazydaystrom - December 12, 2013

Seriously I wish there was an ‘edit’ function on this site.

444. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

@ 417. Vultan – December 11, 2013

“Directed by Kenneth Branagh with a script by Nick Meyer. Because I want a movie with nothing but the characters quoting Shakespeare for two hours!

Seriously though, I think Branagh did a good job with Thor. At the least the outer space stuff was entertaining.”

Kenneth Branagh is currently working on the new Jack Ryan movie “Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit” with Chris Pine.

445. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

@ 443. crazydaystrom – December 12, 2013

“Seriously I wish there was an ‘edit’ function on this site.”

I second that. Sometime I skip words while I’m typing & only find out AFTER submitting it !!

446. dmduncan - December 12, 2013

435. LogicalLeopard – December 12, 2013

Yeah, it’s my experience that people don’t need help deluding themselves.

It’s much more precious getting help to do the opposite, but it’s not always welcome, either, because it challenges self imagery that people don’t want to believe is inaccurate.

What’s interesting about Gordon’s Kitchen Nightmares show is how frequently he comes in as a devil and leaves as an angel.

If you try to part someone from their delusions you look like a devil, and if you succeed you look like an angel. It’s how the person sees what you are doing that changes, not you.

447. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

============================
Stunning STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS Starfleet & Klingon Weapon Designs

Conceptual illustrator John Eaves (“Iron Man 3″), updated his website with more concept art that he created for J.J. Abrams’ Star Trek Into Darkness.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/nailbiter111/news/?a=91445

448. crazydaystrom - December 12, 2013

Ahmed
Like trekmovie.com it’s a rare day that I don’t visit comicbookmovie.com. And it’s been quite a week for news over there.

449. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 12, 2013

443. crazydaystrom – December 12, 2013

“Seriously I wish there was an ‘edit’ function on this site.”

Then you would not never know the impotance of a perfect post!

450. Vultan - December 12, 2013

#444

Ah, I didn’t know that. Thanks.

451. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

Anton Yelchin in an another clueless interview:

============================

So, you know, they announced today that Joe Cornish is off Star Trek 3.

ANTON YELCHIN: Oh did they announce that?

Yeah. What are your thoughts on getting a new director?

YELCHIN: I don’t really have any.

No?

YELCHIN: No. I mean, whoever they choose I’ll be excited to work with. I trust the people involved and trust that they want what’s best for the film. I’m sure they’ll find someone talented. If it’s not Joe Cornish, who’s very talented, it’ll be someone else. I think everyone’s very smart. Everyone at Bad Robot, J.J. and Bryan Burk are all very, very smart people. So they’ll do what needs to be done for the film and I’ll be excited to find out what that is.

Have you heard anything about when you might start shooting?

YELCHIN: No, clearly you know more than I do [laughs].

http://collider.com/anton-yelchin-burying-the-ex-interview/
============================

The lesson from that short interview is to have faith in the company, because:

“Everyone at Bad Robot, J.J. and Bryan Burk are all very, very smart people.” !!!

452. Red Dead Ryan - December 12, 2013

Ahmed,

Maybe you ought to consider the possibility that Anton Yelchin has been busy. Also, the actors aren’t necessarily going to be privy to everything going on at Paramount head offices, especially not when the next movie hasn’t been officially greenlighted yet. So really, at this stage, Yelchi would only know as much as we do. At best. And as Cornish was never actually hired in the first place, it is now irrelevent to all except for us geeks.

453. Red Dead Ryan - December 12, 2013

Yelchi=Yelchin

DAMN TYPOS!!!!!

454. Phil - December 12, 2013

@451. More like another clueless interviewer. Yelchin had maybe 15 minutes of screen time in the last movie, so on what planet does that mean that Yelchin suddenly has the inside track on the production schedule to a sequel that hasn’t even been greenlit yet?

Sulu and Chekov only had a few minutes of screen time in STID, and Carol Marcus was a waste of time. If they don’t have roles in the next outing they won’t be missed. Tracking down the bit players for the inside scoop is a waste of time….

455. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

@ 454. Phil – December 12, 2013

“@451. More like another clueless interviewer. Yelchin had maybe 15 minutes of screen time in the last movie, so on what planet does that mean that Yelchin suddenly has the inside track on the production schedule to a sequel that hasn’t even been greenlit yet?”

That why actors have agents to take care of such matter & to keep them in the loop.

Zoe Saldana, in another interview, mentioned that the shooting will begin in early/summer 2014 & here Yelchin doesn’t seems to be aware of that!

456. dmduncan - December 12, 2013

Carol Marcus is probably there to “mature” Kirk in the next movie by giving him a more meaningful relationship.

“Jim…I’m pregnant,” she whispers, before a trio of Klingon guards drag her up the ramp into their ship.

Kirk’s eyes sparkle with tears as she disappears into the sky. He can’t break the restraints. He can only scream.

“CHAAAAANG!!!”

C’mon, Kirk HAS to scream something in the next movie.

457. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

@Phil

Looking at a previous interview with Yelchin, I agree with you that he is way too low for Paramount/Bad Robot to bother updating him or his agent!

=========================
Friday, Nov 29, 2013

Q: For the “Star Trek” films, in approaching you for the next film in the series, do they ever give you a heads up about how much your character is going to be in the film? What kind of insights do you get as they start?

Yelchin: I get no insights. They call, they say, “We’re going to make the film, we’re going to make it at this time.” And then they say, “Come read the script.” And then I read it and then I see how much work I have.

Q: Do you have any idea how much of you we’ll have in the next film? I know I could have used more Chekov in the last film.

Yelchin: I really actually know nothing about it. I thought maybe I’d know more by now. I wasn’t around much this summer while I was working, I wasn’t in the loop.

http://www.hitfix.com/immaculate-noise/anton-yelchin-talks-star-trek-burying-the-ex-terminator-and-astronaut-work

458. Ahmed - December 12, 2013

@456. dmduncan

“Kirk’s eyes sparkle with tears as she disappears into the sky. He can’t break the restraints. He can only scream.

“CHAAAAANG!!!””

LOL

“C’mon, Kirk HAS to scream something in the next movie.”

Or Spock, the screaming man :)

459. dmduncan - December 12, 2013

Bugs me that Star Trek is having a hard time finding a director.

What about Pierre Morel?

460. dmduncan - December 12, 2013

Oh I know who would make a wonderful Star Trek film.

Kar Wai Wong.

Anyone remember the BMW short film series? He directed a segment called The Follow. Here it is in full. Watch it all the way, please.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bmw+short+films&FORM=VIRE4#view=detail&mid=3E7537B7C7FEB02258603E7537B7C7FEB0225860

461. Captain Slow - December 13, 2013

Whoever directs needs to have original ideas for the big spectacle scenes. Look at the Godzilla trailer posted above. They completely ripped off the ST09 space jump, which J.J. also reused in STID. What was so cool about the space jump to begin with is that we hadn’t seen anything like it. So what this movie needs are more original scenes. Something mind-blowing.

I should also say that the one reuse of an image that I loved was the Enterprise rising. In ST09 it was sort of just there to be cool. In STID it was a great way to reveal the Enterprise in a dramatic way and then it felt triumphant at the end when Kirk saved the ship.

462. MJ - December 13, 2013

Ahmed,

From my POV, this is kind of a surprise to see you all of a sudden trusting and having faith in JJ.

I liked STID, but did not love it. I think the new JJ Star Wars film will probably turn out the same way. From my POV though, it seemed like you couldn’t stand JJ’s STID, but all of a sudden you are buying into the idea that he’s going to do a great SW movie? Huh?

I think my position on both films is more realistic.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

439. Ahmed – December 12, 2013
@ 419. MJ – December 11, 2013

“Ahmed, you make it sound like this is already a proven benefit? I have major doubts about how good this new Star Wars movie is going to do. I certainly don’t think you can already hold up the “bringing Kasdan back after 30 years” thing here as proof that Star Trek should do that???”

We will find out for sure in 2015 but if Abrams thought bringing Kasdan will benefit SW, then he could do the same thing for ST & bring back someone like Ron Moore to cowriter or Frakes to direct.

If they are going to hire a cheap director, then at least they should consider someone familiar with Star Trek & Frakes fit that very well.

463. MJ - December 13, 2013

…and it also seems weird, Ahmed that you bring up Frakes now in this context? You think JJ botched STID after a good outing with ST-2009, and you are on record as saying you would not prefer JJ to direct the next Trek movie.

Yet, Frakes, just like JJ, directed a good ST movie (First Contact) which was immediately followed by what many of us consider a dud Trek movie that he directed (Insurrection).

So this is the same situation, but you want Frakes to direct? Huh?

Again, I see some significant inconsistencies here in your points???

464. Stephan - December 13, 2013

I agree, same situation. Two brilliant movies by Frakes, two brilliant movies by Abrams.

465. Stephan - December 13, 2013

Looks like venom got a director: Alex Kurtzman, written by Orci and Kurtzman. And sinister six will be made as well.

Would like to see something happening on the trek front.

466. oscar - December 13, 2013

In fact, Orci and Kurtzman will write Spider-Man III, release june 2016, and then Orci and pals will write Venom…
So, star trek is the last thing in Orci,s list

467. crazydaystrom - December 13, 2013

463. MJ
” Frakes, just like JJ, directed a good ST movie (First Contact) which was immediately followed by what many of us consider a dud Trek movie that he directed (Insurrection).”

True.
But JJ’s been rather outspoken about being a Wars fan as you know. I’m thinking his reverence of that franchise along with the sure and guiding hand of Kathleen Kennedy, a strong overseeing producer, will in the end result in a movie that’s truer to that franchises roots than STID was to its.

I’m not a huge Star Wars fan but I want Episode VII to be good almost as much as I want ST3 to be a great Star Trek film. Almost but definitely not quite.

468. crazydaystrom - December 13, 2013

465. Stephan
466. oscar

This is the first I’ve heard of this. Where did this Venom news come from?

469. crazydaystrom - December 13, 2013

Ok I posted a question asking about the Venom news but it’s disappeared into the moderation zone.

Anyway I found a story about it on the Superhero Hype site.

Wow! Orci and Kurtzman are a couple of busy guys! They have GOT to be raking in the $$$!

470. Curious Cadet - December 13, 2013

@466. oscar,
“So, star trek is the last thing in Orci,s list”

Orci is on record as saying “nothing is more important than Star Trek” in re his schedule.

Are you calling him a liar?

471. Phil - December 13, 2013

Star Trek isn’t going to have a problem finding a director. They need to find a script first – now that Sony has announced Spider-Man sequels that K/O will have their hands on as well, that provides some clarity for the need to have new writers on Trek 13. I suspect that once there is a script in the next 18 months, the directors available will be clarified.

The decision will be met with some scorn here, regardless of who is chosen. There’s just no pleasing some people….Phil

472. Phil - December 13, 2013

Completely off topic….next stop, Phasers.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-military-reveals-laser-down-drones-mortars-225318179.html

473. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

@ 462. MJ – December 13, 2013

” Ahmed,
From my POV, this is kind of a surprise to see you all of a sudden trusting and having faith in JJ.”

I was always a fan of Abrams TV works as a producer & director . Alias, Fringe, Lost & now Almost Human are all my favorite TV series. Mission: Impossible III & ST09 are my favorite of his movies. Of all Abrams works, STID is the only one that I didn’t care much for.

That why I’m excited to see what he will do in SW 7, because he is a big SW fan as he mentioned several times & it is basically his playground.

“Yet, Frakes, just like JJ, directed a good ST movie (First Contact) which was immediately followed by what many of us consider a dud Trek movie that he directed (Insurrection). So this is the same situation, but you want Frakes to direct? Huh?”

Because Paramount is looking for someone cheap to direct the movie. Would you rather have a newcomer who doesn’t understand Star Trek to direct the 50th anniversary movie or to have Frakes, someone who is very familiar with Trek to do it ?

Frakes is not a perfect director, as you mentioned “Insurrection” was not a great Trek movie. But if there is a choice between him & Cornish or any first timer, I would hire Frakes.

474. Anthony Thompson - December 13, 2013

455. Ahmed

You’re taking Zoe Saldana as an authority on when the sequel will begin shooting? The same Zoe who was quoted as saying the script for STID was “half-finished” about a year before Bob & Co. had even started work on it? C’mon, homeboy!

475. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

@ 465. Stephan – December 13, 2013

“Looks like venom got a director: Alex Kurtzman, written by Orci and Kurtzman. And sinister six will be made as well.
Would like to see something happening on the trek front.”

Lovely, more projects that will sure take significant time from Bob.

Seriously, how he will manage to write a script for Star Trek if he keeps add more project every week ???

476. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

@ 473. Anthony Thompson – December 13, 2013

“455. Ahmed

You’re taking Zoe Saldana as an authority on when the sequel will begin shooting? The same Zoe who was quoted as saying the script for STID was “half-finished” about a year before Bob & Co. had even started work on it? C’mon, homeboy!”

lol, well she is one of the stars of the new movies, you know ? :)

In her last interview, she said that Bob is busy writing a lot !!
Of course, we don’t know if he is working on a Trek script or one of his million other projects :)

477. Oscar - December 13, 2013

469.

Orci is a pro. He knows ST 2016 is the last trek film, no future for the Abrams verse at all …but spider man cinematic universe is in progress…a great project with a great future and he is an Important piece in this project.

478. Michael Hall - December 13, 2013

“Would you rather have a newcomer who doesn’t understand Star Trek to direct the 50th anniversary movie or to have Frakes, someone who is very familiar with Trek to do it ?”

But what does ‘familiar with” mean in this context, exactly? As I’ve said, Frakes is certainly a serviceable director, and I’m sure his familiarity and rapport with the other members of the TNG crew were of great benefit as well. But with its tangled roots in TOS, STAR WARS, and traditional tentpole action movies JJ-Trek is a very different animal. What does he really bring to the table that couldn’t be said of a hundred other directors? Which brings me to–

“Bryan Singer? Nah!”

Why is that–because you didn’t like the movie he made about the guy with the cape? Well, that did turn out to be a muddled disappointment, sure (though Zack Snyder’s take doesn’t seem to have been a slam-dunk with everyone either)–but does that retroactively cancel the critically lauded work that he did on the X-MEN franchise, or that he directed one of the greatest heist-gone-wrong films of the past thirty years, even if you discount its famous twist ending? Singer brings both technical sophistication and conceptual intelligence to all of his projects, yet is not so much of an ‘auteur’ to insist that his vision take precedence over the original material, which in this case he has great respect for. I think he would be perfect for the job, on paper at least, and frankly should have been Viacom’s choice in the first place.

(And while we’re at it, I’d love to see his long-delayed remake of LOGAN’S RUN as well.)

479. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

470. Phil – December 13, 2013

Well…finding a GOOD director. Obviously there are plenty of directors who would NOT say no to the project, any one of which could be signed on today.

Without a script your candidates are narrowed down to those who are eager no matter what the story is, which is not how you generally get quality results.

If this really was Bob’s last Star Trek project, then this would be a good opportunity for him to write something bold (don’t think about what the box office will be) that will attract more than just Hollywood’s desperado caste.

480. I am not Herbert (retired) - December 13, 2013

Ahmed: Thanks for the link to the weapons designs… =)

they’re pretty nice… definitely an improvement… ;-)

maybe this guy could redesign the hull, bridge, engineering, etc, etc…?

481. Curious Cadet - December 13, 2013

@476. Oscar,
“Orci is a pro. He knows ST 2016 is the last trek film, no future for the Abrams verse at all …”

I don’t think anyone can say this with any certainty at all.

Orci is a major TV Producer now. Unless he totally punts on ST16, then I cannot imagine anyone would be in a hurry to kick him out of the franchise. Abrams? Sure. He’s a got a massive ego and won’t play nice with CBS. But as you say Orci is a Pro. He will walk the political line and Kiss Les Moonves’ butt to get in on something as lucrative as the Star Trek television franchise. Movie money is gold, but TV franchise money is the gift that keeps on giving, especially Trek.

My guess is the key to a Trek TV series is to spin off a ship in the Abrams universe that follows the adventures of another intrepid captain in the spirit of TOS. Don’t change the formula, make it a blatant rip-off even — the fans won’t care, and the new fans won’t know. Give us all the excitement of the films following the same formula that made TOS what it is. CBS will then get behind the merchandising 100% since this does not compete with their established TOS business. Why would Orci walk away from that!?

482. I am not Herbert (retired) - December 13, 2013

dmduncan: well said =)

finding a director will be a bigger last-minute scramble than finding someone to play “Khan”… LOL!

…I still have hope that the new director will only take the job WITHOUT boborci… (please, Please, PLEASE!!)

483. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

The really good directors will want to be in on the creative process, the biggest part of which is WRITING THE MOVIE.

So if Bob is just looking for someone to shoot what he and the boy scouts write, he is limiting his options.

How about teaming up with a notable director to help write the screenplay?

484. Stephan - December 13, 2013

Maybe boborci should direct.

485. Michael Hall - December 13, 2013

“My guess is the key to a Trek TV series is to spin off a ship in the Abrams universe that follows the adventures of another intrepid captain in the spirit of TOS. Don’t change the formula, make it a blatant rip-off even — the fans won’t care, and the new fans won’t know.”

Ugh. So what do the words “Star Trek” even mean now, anyway? Two films in and we’re poised for franchise fatigue all over again. Which, for all the hype about Trek 2009’s box-office take and success with general audiences, is exactly what I was predicting after seeing it. A fun ride, but ultimately just more disposable corporate product that no one would remember, much less be inspired by.

486. I am not Herbert (retired) - December 13, 2013

…the JJ-verse is a throw-away… (seenit, forgotit, don’tcare) =(

let’s have a shiny new Science Fiction Star Trek for the fiftieth, OK? =D

not the last ditch installment of this SOULLESS SCUTTLED SCOW… =(

487. I am not Herbert (retired) - December 13, 2013

…maybe the young-bloods are writer/directors?

…maybe a hired-gun director is what’s needed??

…JJ’s input sure messed things up… =(

488. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

Hey, American Zoetrope still produces pop movies regardless of the now personal film-making habits of Francis.

And didn’t the boy scouts win or place highly in Zoetrope’s screenplay contest (which Francis is a judge of)?

Francis’ mindset is CURRENT with a proven record. I wish somebody would just ASK him if he would consider making another Hollywood movie. Just ASK.

Please be bold and don’t choose between movies that make $$$ and movies that have meaning.

489. Michael Hall - December 13, 2013

“Just ASK.”

Wonder if FFC has ever even seen an episode of ST?

490. Michael Hall - December 13, 2013

“The really good directors will want to be in on the creative process, the biggest part of which is WRITING THE MOVIE.”

Yep. Which is why Harlan Ellison always said he thought there were only seven directors out there whom he could respect as real creative artists–I don’t remember them all, but know the list included Coppola, Kubrick, and Kurasowa–because they were all actually WRITER-directors. The rest, in his view, ranged from competent craftsmen to outright hacks.

491. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

489. Michael Hall – December 13, 2013

I will bet YES on that.

He was also brought in to help try and fix Supernova, which was SF, and he directed Bram Stoker’s Dracula and Peggy Sue Got Married which were both fantastic films.

The man is not limited in genre interests. And George Lucas is like a brother to him, whom he has been enormously supportive of.

It’s impossible for me to imagine Francis Ford Copolla as above doing SF.

And what he would bring to it is something personal, which is the thing that makes his commercial films great.

492. Who cares - December 13, 2013

So there is an announcement from Sony that likely explains why Alex Kurtzman won’t be writing on the next Trek. It seems that Alex will be directing Sony’s upcoming Spider-Man spin-off film Venom.

http://movies.yahoo.com/news/sony-sets-spider-man-spinoffs-franchise-brain-trust-081905447.html

493. I am not Herbert (retired) - December 13, 2013

Peggy Sue Got Married is one of my favorites! =)

Dracula was good too!

i’m getting on-board! FFC would be great!

…but with boborci?? not a chance in hell…

494. Red Dead Ryan - December 13, 2013

Venom is an overrated villain, not sure how successful a movie surrounding the character will be without Spider Man involved.

495. Michael Hall - December 13, 2013

“It’s impossible for me to imagine Francis Ford Copolla as above doing SF.”

Oh no, not at all. (Though he also did JACK, kindasorta SF, as well as produced the pilot for a retro SF/Western series called WHITE DWARF, both of which were. . . well, not so good). One of the projects he talked about after completing APOCALYPSE was a modern adaptation of Goethe’s Elective Affinities, which would have taken place in the future and concluded with the launching of a space telescope the size of the Graf Zepplin blimp. I’d still love to see that.

But that doesn’t mean he’d be interested in trading-in his wine and pasta-sauce making for taking a crack at our favorite cheezeball space opera. Still, who knows?

496. I am not Herbert (retired) - December 13, 2013

…Good thing i don’t care about Venom, LOL! =)

…now Sinister Six would be AWESOME!

..too bad Raimi’s not doing it =(

497. Oscar - December 13, 2013

481.
Sorry, CBS business is the original timeline, not the abramsverse timeline. This is Paramount stuff for theaters, so, if they make a new ST series, they will make it in the original timeline. The most important sci fi universe ever…You do not waste a treasure.
Plus, abramsverse merchandasing is a ruin. And CBS earns a lot of money with the merchandising of the original ST..and with a new tv series in the original timeline they would make more money…the real money in st is the original trek…
Bottom line , It is a CBS call, not a Orci or Abrams call…

498. Phil - December 13, 2013

Christ, this is spiraling in to the realm of the pathetic fairly quick. While most everyone would agree at some level that a decent sci-fi story is worth telling – if the fans are going to be brutally honest with themselves, Trek quit being bold when the credits rolled on TMP. Since then, the franchises idea of being bold is to change the sex or the color of the captain, and see how snappy the hot female lead looks in a catsuit. The purists who post here, who do nothing but attack the current creative teams efforts are the worst offenders. Regardless of the results, at least Bad Robot tried. Don’t believe me – thumb back through these various threads and see what has happened to people who have had the audacity to suggest that any of the themes touched on in the original series should be updated to reflect the world as it has become now – it’s been nothing but an on-line lynching for these people.

Look, a director is a director. Popping a sci-fi chubby for whomever happens to be at the top of your A-list at the moment IS NO GUARANTEE of success. Want to ensure a bit of boldness in the next movie – instead of fantasying about how Spielberg, Howard, Coppola, might do, how about a bit of conversation on how we could live with some departure from canon that would insure that, if given the change, one of these talents could actually tell a story instead if just pissing off the canon vigilante lynch mob??

Sadly, it won’t happen – it’s just a matter of time before some fan fiction aficionado chimes in that the only true vision of Trek is Phase II, which is probably the most constipated vision of Trek boldness available today…..

499. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

495. Michael Hall – December 13, 2013

But that doesn’t mean he’d be interested in trading-in his wine and pasta-sauce making for taking a crack at our favorite cheezeball space opera. Still, who knows?

***

Whoever talks to him should explain it as: “just taking a little vacation from your vacation.”

The remarkable thing about Copolla is his ability to get what he personally wants while playing by other people’s rules. So far his commercial films have been his best.

He’s also skilled at adapting books, as The Great Gatsby and The Rainmaker prove, which skill should transfer nicely to a franchise with defined characters and relationships.

500. MJ - December 13, 2013

“Because Paramount is looking for someone cheap to direct the movie. Would you rather have a newcomer who doesn’t understand Star Trek to direct the 50th anniversary movie or to have Frakes, someone who is very familiar with Trek to do it ?”

Actually, I’d rather have a newcomer.

501. Curious Cadet - December 13, 2013

@497. Oscar,
“Sorry, CBS business is the original timeline, not the abramsverse timeline. This is Paramount stuff for theaters, so, if they make a new ST series, they will make it in the original timeline. The most important sci fi universe ever…You do not waste a treasure. Plus, abramsverse merchandasing is a ruin.”

I have to completely disagree with this. The original timeline has nothing to do with CBS marketing and merchandising other than there’s an enormous amount of material that continues to earn them a tidy sum every year. They just don’t want to jump ship without a solid vessel to jump to. They have a cash cow that will continue for decades more, with or without producing new content in that universe. Creating more canon in that universe is crowded and unwise, and arguably led to exhausting good ideas. A new team is going to be saddled with the exact same problem. The smartest thing Abrams did was re-boot the franchise into a new universe. The mistake was abandoning the original TOS formula that made the franchise successful in the first place.

Keeping a new show in the new universe and tying it into Abrams’ Trek — the MOST POPULAR VERSION OF STAR TREK EVER — will ensure a new audience to the TV series, complete with a send-off by Pine and Quinto. The feature films can then continue to explore the TOS characters, while the TV series explores new ones in the same universe. As the line between TV & Film continues to blur, NOTHING would be more confusing or DIVISIVE than trying to make two different universes co-exist at the same time. Going back to the Prime universe will disappoint all the substantial new fans that Abrams has brought to the franchise, and virtually guarantee a new series won’t get enough viewership to justify the expense.

The assumption I infer from you is that Paramount will either give up the franchise or go back to the Prime Universe — and I don’t see that happening. If anything, Paramount’s new TV division might just license the series rights from CBS and make a completely compatible series with the films. And as long as they don’t trample on CBS’ Prime universe toes, why wouldn’t CBS want to get into getting a piece of that action as well?

And finally how is Abramsverse merchandising a ruin? There never was any to speak of because CBS gutted any efforts before they really got going. I just don’t see the validity behind the absolute certainty by which you present any of your arguments. Sorry.

502. MJ - December 13, 2013

Gorgan is back — “I am not Herbert” is actually Gorgan from “And the Children Shall Lead.”

Hey Gorgan (Herbert), here is your song, dude — enjoy!:

Hi, hi fire and snow
Call the angel
We will go
Far away, for to see
Friendly angel, come to me.

503. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

498. Phil – December 13, 2013

Phil, I don’t know who or what specifically your ire is directed at but you are sounding crabby and drunkenly cynical.

504. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

As mentioned upthread, here is the article about the new Bob project:

====================================
Sony Hires Superstar Writers to Expand ‘Spider-Man’ Universe

Sony is making good on its promise to expand the Spider-Man universe in a big way, hiring superstar writers Alex Kurtzman, Roberto Orci, Jeff Pinkner, Ed Solomon and Drew Goddard to work on a large-scale story that will encompass several films.
…..
Kurtzman and Orci are already working on a third installment of Amazing Spider-Man. Sony has also announced a release date for a fourth Amazing Spider-Man movie for May 4, 2018.

But Kurtzman, Orci and Solomon will write Venom, centered on the black costumed villain that already made his big screen debut in the third Spider-Man movie of the Sam Raimi trillogy, that Kurtzman will direct.

Kurtzman, Orci and Pinkner are already experienced in world and franchise building, with their work on the Star Trek and Transformers movies as well as shows such as Fringe.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/amazing-spider-man-spinoffs-sony-665538

505. MJ - December 13, 2013

@504.

Boring! I never even knew nor cared about the “universe” that goes with Spider-man. Are any of us above the age of 10 really clamoring for the Doc Oc and Venom origin stories? No thanks!

So are these guys — Alex and Bob — going to build their careers on this silly stuff? I mean, good for them that they can make a lot of money on this stuff, but I find myself being kind of embarrassed on their behalf, career-wise.

506. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

@ 505. MJ – December 13, 2013

“Boring! I never even knew nor cared about the “universe” that goes with Spider-man. Are any of us above the age of 10 really clamoring for the Doc Oc and Venom origin stories? No thanks!”

I feel the same way. I’ve zero interest in watching a Venom or The Sinister Six movie.

I’d rather watch a movie based on “Luc Orient” than these characters.

507. dswynne - December 13, 2013

Frakes for Director! Pass along…

508. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

Sounds like they’re building a portfolio.

509. dswynne - December 13, 2013

And to those who would rather have a newcomer than Frakes as director for ST3, I give you this as the counter-argument:

“Star Trek: Nemesis”…

510. Red Dead Ryan - December 13, 2013

The most interesting comic book villains, for me at least, are those from the DC Universe, in particular, Batman’s rivals and arch-enemies like the Joker, Catwoman, Riddler, Mr.Freeze, Clayface, Ra’s al Ghul, Two-Face, etc. In manyof these cases, there is a human tragedy facet that seprate them from many of Marvel’s bad guys and gals, many of whom tend to be hungry for power and/or out for revenge. The DC villains tend to be a bit more complex.

511. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

@ 508. dmduncan – December 13, 2013

“Sounds like they’re building a portfolio.”

Bob better learns to writer script really really FAST. With all the incoming projects, it going to be really hard on him if he doesn’t speed up his writing & got things done on time.

512. Red Dead Ryan - December 13, 2013

Frakes is a competent director and seems like a nice, smart guy, but his skills are better fitted for television shows as opposed to major tent-pole blockbusters.

513. boborci - December 13, 2013

Its beginning to look a lot like christmas…

514. Who cares - December 13, 2013

@MJ. While I am not personally all that interested in origin stories for super-villains, and feel this move is just Sony being d-cks to Marvel/Disney by keeping the Spider-Man stable of characters from being used in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, just like Fox with the X-Men stable, I still think there could be interesting stories to be told.

I always kind of liked Venom, especially when he was written as a deranged man trying to be a hero (aka “The Lethal Protector”), not so much interested in the “fixated on destroying Spider-Man” take.

As far as the comment about anyone over the age of 10, I dunno how many fans are especially interested in villain movies, but there are a lot of us, many very highly educated, professional people.

I regularly correspond with a scientist at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm who is a very serious comic book/superhero fan, who even has professional writing credits for a superhero role playing game, which he did as a hobby, and he continues to write material for that game on an unpaid basis for a website devoted to the game. Actually he isn’t just unpaid on the website, he also helps to pay the bills for the site.

I would link to a page at the RIT website that shows his degrees and so forth but I won’t do that without his direct permission. My point is that there are lots of people out there who read comics, from all walks of life, and trying to pigeonhole any such group with convenient labels, is as inaccurate as the people who call all Trek fans basement dwelling virgin nerds.

515. boborci - December 13, 2013

466. working on it now:)

516. Michael Hall - December 13, 2013

So what about it, Mr. Orci? Would you care to work with the likes of Francis Ford Coppola, or would that be too much of a come-down for you at this point? :-)

517. boborci - December 13, 2013

459. not having a hard time… just have to meet many to to discuss and find fit.

518. MJ - December 13, 2013

Finally, some F’ing REAL NEWS here on Trek 2016.

Thanks Bob!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

515. boborci – December 13, 2013
466. working on it now:)

519. MJ - December 13, 2013

Bob, how about finding a Punjabi Sikh to direct this one?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
517. boborci – December 13, 2013
459. not having a hard time… just have to meet many to to discuss and find fit.

520. Phil - December 13, 2013

Coppola is only producing his own films these days, so that idea is DOA.

Next!

521. MJ - December 13, 2013

Yea, let Frakes direct something on Lifetime or FX network. He’s not suited for major movies.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
512. Red Dead Ryan – December 13, 2013
Frakes is a competent director and seems like a nice, smart guy, but his skills are better fitted for television shows as opposed to major tent-pole blockbusters.

522. boborci - December 13, 2013

516. Never heard of him;)

523. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

I am watching Copolla’s latest right now, Twixt. It is David Lynch weird, but with a sense of humor.

Father Guido Sarducci is in it. And at one point Val Kilmer does a hilarious Brando/Colonel Kurtz impression.

524. K-7 - December 13, 2013

Frakes should stick to Gargoyle cartoons.

525. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

@ 515. boborci – December 13, 2013

“466. working on it now:)”

Very good news, all the best.

526. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

@ 523. dmduncan – December 13, 2013

“I am watching Copolla’s latest right now, Twixt. It is David Lynch weird, but with a sense of humor.”

Sounds interesting, will check it out.

527. K-7 - December 13, 2013

Bob Orci: “Its beginning to look a lot like christmas…”

Ah, but still, your family apparently won’t be dining on Cornish Game Hen this year…

528. boborci - December 13, 2013

527. u should be pun-ished:)

529. Gary 8.5 - December 13, 2013

Joe Cornish wont be directing Trek ,
But Bobs family can still have that hen!

530. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

517. boborci – December 13, 2013

Am glad you have list of other people to choose from. Cornish was an interesting pick.

526. Ahmed – December 13, 2013

Beware. It’s not mainstream Copolla, but there is some funny and beautiful stuff in it. I’d say that in each of his last three “personal” films he’s getting a half star better, by which I mean closer to what he used to do.

I wish he would take a vacation from taking a vacation.

531. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 13, 2013

Boborci!

My holiday wish for ST3 is to see Phasers that actually “phase things out.”

I always think of this when I see post TOS treks, so please, bring back the wonder factor of the original series awesome future weapons.

532. MJB - December 13, 2013

Thanks for touching base with us, Bob. Have a great holiday!

533. MJB - December 13, 2013

531. TrekMadeMeWonder
Oh yeah, I forgot about that effect. Bob – please add that to your list!

534. Phil - December 13, 2013

@518. Sorry, MJ, but knowing that Trek 13 is on Bob’s ‘to do” list really isn’t news….

535. Stephan - December 13, 2013

@boborci:

What about you directing trek? If Mr Kurtzman can direct, why shouldn’t you as well? ;-)

536. boborci - December 13, 2013

535. I hate real jobs. maybe when I grow up.

537. Who cares - December 13, 2013

@Phil. Bob said he was working on Trek now, not that it was on his to do list, there is a difference.

538. Jonboc - December 13, 2013

Hey Bob Orci, Merry Chistmas! Man, you need to check out “These are the Voyages” on Amazon. You can now download it as a kindle edition for your iPad. It’s a fascinating look at the genesis and production of the original series using interviews and Roddenberry’s studio material archived at UCLA. This volume covers the first season. Great reading as a fan, and probably even more so for you “behind-the-scenes” guys…it’s very thorough. Check it out, you’ll like it.

539. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

Bob, stay tuned. I’m going to have Star Trek: A Crowning Sea of Stars, up shortly.

540. Michael Hall - December 13, 2013

522. boborci – December 13, 2013

“516. Never heard of him;)”

Can’t say as I’m surprised. He did a few notable things back in the day, but they’re mostly pretty old and forgotten by now.

541. MJB - December 13, 2013

540. Michael Hall

Bob was kidding.

542. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

@ 540. Michael Hall – December 13, 2013

“522. boborci – December 13, 2013

“516. Never heard of him;)”

Can’t say as I’m surprised. He did a few notable things back in the day, but they’re mostly pretty old and forgotten by now.”

I believe that Bob was joking with you :)

Everyone know Francis Ford Coppola, the director of The Godfather trilogy & Apocalypse Now.

543. Oscar - December 13, 2013

501
The most popular version of star trek are TOS and TNG…
ST2009 and STID are only summer blockbusters.Pure marketing.Short live products
TOS and TNG are classics. Imperishable stuff, a myth,
CBS business is the original timeline. 2014 Star Trek novels: original timeline: 12-14 novels scheduled , new timeline novels:0…
Why? Because they know original timeline is hugely popular. Same thing with a tv series.
ST 2016 will be the end of the abramverse.then Paramount will make a new reboot…
Wait and see.

544. Jonboc - December 13, 2013

Sorry Oscar, Into Darkness was the most successful Trek movie ever. If the movies end after 2016, it won’t be because the studio wants it to.

545. Phil - December 13, 2013

@540. Figures.

546. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

Okay guys, here it is. Anyone interested on reading what I came up with can now find it on my blog. Click on the link to my blog and you will find another link in the latest blog post there. Click on that and it will open in PDF form. Ahmed, RDR, MJ, Michael Hall, TMMW, Gary 8.5, Hugh Hoyland, Marja, BB, CC, LL—and of course Bob Orci, and anyone I may have forgot who expressed an interest. Critiques are welcome

http://thedoomsdaydiet.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/star-trek-a-crowning-sea-of-stars/

547. Michael Hall - December 13, 2013

@ 541, 542–

“Bob was just kidding.”

Um, so was I. :-)

“Ahmed, RDR, MJ, Michael Hall, TMMW, Gary 8.5, Hugh Hoyland, Marja, BB, CC, LL—and of course Bob Orci, and anyone I may have forgot who expressed an interest. Critiques are welcome.”

Great; I’ll definitely be interested in checking it out. I vividly remember that exchange you wrote and posted back in the day between the newly-promoted Kirk and that Iowa motorcycle cop who had busted him. Had it been in the 2009 film, that scene would have been the best thing about it.

“The most popular version of star trek are TOS and TNG…
ST2009 and STID are only summer blockbusters.Pure marketing.Short live products
TOS and TNG are classics. Imperishable stuff, a myth”

Sorry Jonboc, but that’s exactly right. Of all the corporate product that has carried the Trek labeling over the past five decades, only TOS and TNG are bonafide cultural phenomena in their own right. I have no idea if anyone will be bothering to watch either show decades from now, but there is a future audience for either of the Abrams films it will only be due to their connection to the previous work; I’m not sure that even Bob Orci would take issue with that.

548. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

@546. dmduncan

Thanks, will read it over the weekend. I enjoy reading movie & TV scripts :)

549. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

Guys, check this video out :)

============================
Watch R Kelly get revenge on Benedict Cumberbatch with Star Trek recital

http://metro.co.uk/2013/12/13/watch-r-kelly-get-revenge-on-benedict-cumberbatch-with-star-trek-recital-4229853/

550. Ahmed - December 13, 2013

@547. Michael Hall

“Sorry Jonboc, but that’s exactly right. Of all the corporate product that has carried the Trek labeling over the past five decades, only TOS and TNG are bonafide cultural phenomena in their own right. I have no idea if anyone will be bothering to watch either show decades from now, but there is a future audience for either of the Abrams films it will only be due to their connection to the previous work;”

Well said.

551. dmduncan - December 13, 2013

547. Michael Hall – December 13, 2013

Great; I’ll definitely be interested in checking it out. I vividly remember that exchange you wrote and posted back in the day between the newly-promoted Kirk and that Iowa motorcycle cop who had busted him. Had it been in the 2009 film, that scene would have been the best thing about it.

***

I’m flattered that you remembered that scene. Thank you very much.

I hope you’ll find some character moments in ACSOS that you like as much as that. Keep in mind that I’m trying to get Kirk from where he was at the end of ST.09 to close to being the captain we remember him to be, and I wanted the progression to be visible.

552. MJ - December 13, 2013

DM,

Thanks for the recommendation on the wacky Coppola movie. I’ll check it out. Coppola and Ray Liotta are two of my favorites, so it will be worth it just for that.

BTW, I did get around to watching the new Criterion Blu-Ray Directors Cut of Heaven’s Gate, and it’s very watchable now — very good movie until the final 1/3, where it kind of goes downhill about. But great to look and pretty damn good acting. And you feel like you are back in the 1800’s — everything just looks incredibly authentic, down to the smallest details. It’s worth adding to you collection, or renting if you don’t collect.

553. MJ - December 13, 2013

Phil, you missed the point. He is actually working on the script right now.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
534. Phil – December 13, 2013
@518. Sorry, MJ, but knowing that Trek 13 is on Bob’s ‘to do” list really isn’t news…

554. MJ - December 13, 2013

DM,

I liked your script. I am not sure if is quite ready for the big screen, but it is definitely better than the average Star Trek novel — you might want to consider writing it as a novel?

The best parts were the opening scenes with the Klingon invasion and the Rolling Stones scene.

Thanks for sharing!

555. MJ - December 13, 2013

“Sorry Jonboc, but that’s exactly right. Of all the corporate product that has carried the Trek labeling over the past five decades, only TOS and TNG are bonafide cultural phenomena in their own right. I have no idea if anyone will be bothering to watch either show decades from now, but there is a future audience for either of the Abrams films it will only be due to their connection to the previous work;”

Not so fast. TOS = yes…and nuTrek is reinforcing that and is in the same toychest…it’s TOS for the 21st century.

TNG, however, is generally fading from the public consciousness. People under 25 are hardly aware of it. It’s just not iconic.

556. Diskhanbobulated - December 14, 2013

Finkel & Einhorn. Terrific.

557. Captain Slow - December 14, 2013

boborci, can you tell us how many pages you’ve written so far? It wouldn’t be a spoiler and would make fans more excited (unless you’re still trying to write FADE IN:).

558. Hugh Hoyland - December 14, 2013

“546. dmduncan – December 13, 2013″

Got it dm, will read it asap and get back to you.

559. crazydaystrom - December 14, 2013

557. Captain Slow
“(unless you’re still trying to write FADE IN:).”

LOL! COME ON MAN!!! I’m just trying to drink my coffee and there you are trying to make me SPEW it! Hahaha! He said he was working on it! I’m sure he’s at least up to-

-FADE IN: It is a cold and misty night in a nebula in deepest space. A PHASER SHOT RINGS OUT! A Redshirt falls dead.—

I’m excited already!

Haha

560. crazydaystrom - December 14, 2013

I can see the writing room now-

“Payne!! WHERE THE *BLEEP’S* MOCHACCINO?!? McKAY!! YOU’D BETTER HAVE MY *BLEEPIN’ BLEEPITY BLEEP BLEEP* CRO-NUT OR I WILL GO BAD ROBOT ON YOUR *BLEEPIN’ BLEEP*!!!”

Yeah I can just see it.

I keed! I keed! ;-)

561. crazydaystrom - December 14, 2013

…*MY* MOCHACCINO…

562. Hillary - December 14, 2013

I spend a day and read through the hundreds of ominous comment for ST ID debate.
First of all, I think , do not and prohibited listen to fans too much, and do not seriously follow the instructions or criticism of the fans. Because we live in different world.
Thankfully
This is the 21th century, not the 20th century.
After, I heard Orci also came off the Twitter.
Well, I “congratulate” the fans.
At least, I am glad, the fans could not permanently prevent or chase away Orci from this page.
Thank’s Goodness.
Easy to criticize on the Internet, to write the script you all can not imagine how hard it is.
Sweet Roberto.
I feel there is a growing complication around the future of the Star Trek III.
No Lindelof , no Kurtzman, fresh news: no Jornish , and now, here this two new writer boy…
This is started to be tedious, I’m bored.
Honestly, looks like something curse.
But no !
You can write alone!
Especially..first of all, the synopsis of Star Trek III, then the screen play and shooting script is ready. I heard about the title of the film.
Huge explosions all over, even in 2020, they will talk about it, argue it. No problem, because these discussions will be the biggest advert of the film.
This is not a miracle…not suprising…because this story happening/takes place five strands.
Shocking, thought-provoking, subtle, surprising, rough, war, sentimental, tricky … and more
With help of an middle succes director, and with some good advice of JJ. you can do this film.
This is not a huge and impossible challenge.
You need to know!
I think we understand each other.

563. Phil - December 14, 2013

@557. “Working on it” – loose translation,” I drove down to Staples to pick up some paper for my printer….ran into Andrew Garfield in the printer cartridge section, and we got to talking about stories for ASM3…”.

Been to this rodeo before guys – there’s a reason Paramount hasn’t announced a release date yet.

564. Oscar - December 14, 2013

But Paramount has presented interstellar teaser, more true star trek feeling than Abrams trek…

565. Gary 8.5 - December 14, 2013

There is no reason to announce right now.
All is well.

566. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

Interstellar Movie – Official Teaser

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyc6RJEEe0U

Beautiful & evocative teaser that show very little of the movie, yet manage to make you interested in the movie.

Bob & co, please hire Hans Zimmer to writer the music for ST XIII.

567. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

@557. Captain Slow
“(unless you’re still trying to write FADE IN:).”

@560. crazydaystrom
“I can see the writing room now-

“Payne!! WHERE THE *BLEEP’S* MOCHACCINO?!? McKAY!! YOU’D BETTER HAVE MY *BLEEPIN’ BLEEPITY BLEEP BLEEP* CRO-NUT OR I WILL GO BAD ROBOT ON YOUR *BLEEPIN’ BLEEP*!!!””

LOL,
Thanks guys for making me laugh so hard as I was reading your comments :)

568. Hillary - December 14, 2013

No! The STID music writer was perfect! Brilliant! Stay Michael!!!!

569. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

@ 568. Hillary – December 14, 2013

“No! The STID music writer was perfect! Brilliant! Stay Michael!!!!”

I disagree. There was nothing new in STID music. It was almost the same as ST09, the only exception was “London Calling”. That was boring & repetitive.

570. somejackball - December 14, 2013

Enjoy some Interstellar/Enterprise mashups guys!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXnBvUMzhpY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTUnf-TLUwg

571. MJ - December 14, 2013

“No! The STID music writer was perfect! Brilliant! Stay Michael!!!!”

Hillary, I agree 100%. We already have one of the top composers working on Trek today, and besides, Hams Zimmer’s mood-techno music (which I like in things like Batman) is not a good fit for Trek. Trek needs to stay with the classic energetic orchestral treatment.

Besides, Ahmed dislikes STID so much, that he can’t even acknowledge the outstanding parts of the film like the music and the special effect. He actually said the special effects were poor, if you can believe that. And to make it worse, he admits only seeing STID once, so how can he possibly judge this stuff just based on seeing it once, where he was mainly fuming about Khan and the story he didn’t like — obviously that clouded his judgement on the really good aspects of the film. Heck, I get that — when I get really disappointed in a movie, I get overly critical on even the good parts as well — it’s human nature.

572. MJ - December 14, 2013

…and by the way, London Calling is one of the best themes in Trek music history. My younger son played it at his piano recital recently and it was a big hit, with everyone asking who wrote that piece? That a brilliant piece of music, and you are completely wack to take potshots at that part of the score???

573. MJ - December 14, 2013

@570 Let’s not jinx Interstellar by comparing it to the tremendously disappointing Enterprise series..

574. MJ - December 14, 2013

@557. “Working on it” – loose translation,” I drove down to Staples to pick up some paper for my printer….ran into Andrew Garfield in the printer cartridge section, and we got to talking about stories for ASM3…”.

You forgot about the McKay-Payne In-N-Out Burger run.

575. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

@ 571. MJ – December 14, 2013

“Besides, Ahmed dislikes STID so much, that he can’t even acknowledge the outstanding parts of the film like the music and the special effect. He actually said the special effects were poor, if you can believe that.”

No, I said there was nothing innovative or new in STID special effects. Movies like Terminator 2, The Matrix & Inception they all used new innovative special effects. STID has your typical summer movie special effects, high production values but noting original.

“And to make it worse, he admits only seeing STID once, so how can he possibly judge this stuff just based on seeing it once, where he was mainly fuming about Khan and the story he didn’t like — obviously that clouded his judgement on the really good aspects of the film.”

I watched once in theater & another time on blu-ray with a friend. That was more than enough for me :)

“That a brilliant piece of music, and you are completely wack to take potshots at that part of the score???”

Newsflash, people have different tastes in music, the fact that you like it, doesn’t mean that EVERYONE else should like it, right ?

576. Andorian - December 14, 2013

Come on people, Michael Giacchino is the hottest composer in the movies right now. You ride that guy for the rest of the movie franchise and don’t let go of him.

577. MJ - December 14, 2013

“No, I said there was nothing innovative or new in STID special effects. Movies like Terminator 2, The Matrix & Inception they all used new innovative special effects. STID has your typical summer movie special effects, high production values but noting original.”

This doesn’t make any sense? It’s Star Trek, so we want the Star Trek universe, including the ships, planets, creatures, etc, to look great, and in the last two movies we got the greatest looking Trek universe ever.

Are we suppose to throw in liquid metal people and dream-upon-dream worlds to arbitrarily get special effects awards when the story doesn’t call for them? Those examples you cited has stories that required those breakthroughs. I don’t think you have really thought through your comment here???

578. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

Why people don’t like change ? Some people dislike change so much that they want to stay with the same writers, same director, same producers, same music composer, same same same …???

We are going to get the same product if we stay with the same group of people, no changes or progress.

579. MJ - December 14, 2013

“Newsflash, people have different tastes in music, the fact that you like it, doesn’t mean that EVERYONE else should like it, right ?”

You specifically say it’s “repetitive”, and that is factually wrong, as that piece of musics is complex and goes in several different directions and builds to a climax. Google the sheet music and take a look at it again.

If you want to say it’s ‘boring”, you are entitled to your onion. But saying it’s repetitive is factually wrong — NEWSFLASH !!!

580. MJ - December 14, 2013

@578. LOL. We are just two movies in…relax, dude

581. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

@577. MJ

“and in the last two movies we got the greatest looking Trek universe ever.”

Yeah, right. In ST09 we saw Earth, Vulcan & Delta Vega. In STID, it was Earth again, Qo’noS & Nibiru. I can see that we saw the best in Trek universe EVER.

“Are we suppose to throw in liquid metal people and dream-upon-dream worlds to arbitrarily get special effects awards when the story doesn’t call for them?”

No, they have an entire universe with billion of planets, stars & moons with many alien races out there. I want to see something that show the wonder of these civilizations & the places where they live.

But I guess, you are just happy with seeing Earth for the 3rd time & enjoying watching the Enterprise flying around the solar system.

582. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

@ 579. MJ – December 14, 2013

“You specifically say it’s “repetitive”, and that is factually wrong, as that piece of musics is complex and goes in several different directions and builds to a climax. Google the sheet music and take a look at it again.”

I was referring to STID soundtrack in general, not to “London Calling”. It was repetitive, I didn’t feel anything new about it. That is my opinion.

583. Red Dead Ryan - December 14, 2013

There were some weaknesses with STID — but the score wasn’t one of them. Michael Giacchino is one of the best composers in Hollywood today — and his scores for the recent Trek movies reflect that.

I can’t believe Ahmed is still going on about how he hates STID so much.

584. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

@ 583. Red Dead Ryan – December 14, 2013

“I can’t believe Ahmed is still going on about how he hates STID so much.”

I can’t believe RDR is still going on defending STID :)

Your opinion didn’t change, and my opinion is still the same.

585. MJ - December 14, 2013

“No, they have an entire universe with billion of planets, stars & moons with many alien races out there. I want to see something that show the wonder of these civilizations & the places where they live.”

Exactly my point. The special effect’s relate to the story. Within the stories they have given us, the special effects were fantastic.

You want a different story that will show wilder stuff that would require different and perhaps groundbreaking special effects. THIS IS A STORY ISSUE, not a special effects issue.

586. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

==========================
China lands Jade Rabbit robot rover on Moon

China says it has successfully landed a craft carrying a robotic rover on the surface of the Moon, the first soft landing there for 37 years.

On Saturday afternoon (GMT), a landing module used thrusters to touch down, marking the latest step in China’s ambitious space exploration programme.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25356603

587. MJ - December 14, 2013

@576

“Come on people, Michael Giacchino is the hottest composer in the movies right now. You ride that guy for the rest of the movie franchise and don’t let go of him.”

YOU BETCHA !!!!!

588. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

@ 585. MJ – December 14, 2013

“Exactly my point. The special effect’s relate to the story. Within the stories they have given us, the special effects were fantastic.

You want a different story that will show wilder stuff that would require different and perhaps groundbreaking special effects. THIS IS A STORY ISSUE, not a special effects issue.”

Star Trek is a space science fiction story, so the story should go out there in the space & not stuck on Earth.

So yeah, the stories that were told so far were limiting the scope of things that we could see.

589. MJ - December 14, 2013

@588. OK, I actually do agree with that.

590. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

@ 587. MJ – December 14, 2013

“YOU BETCHA !!!!!”

lol, are you possessed by the spirit of Sarah Palin ? :)

591. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

Now that the Chinese are reaching for the moon, I hope this will trigger a new space race.

592. Gary 8.5 - December 14, 2013

Maybe I am wrong, but I doubt the U.S. is going back to the moon anytime soon.

593. Vultan - December 14, 2013

Welcome to the ’60s, China!

Give free speech a try too.
Very groovy, man.

594. Ahmed - December 14, 2013

@ 592. Gary 8.5 – December 14, 2013

“Maybe I am wrong, but I doubt the U.S. is going back to the moon anytime soon.”

Maybe, but the prospect of mining helium-3 from the moon might encourage them to take action. This time around, the space race will involve countries other than US & Russia. In addition to China, India is planning to land on the moon by 2020

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/10518111/Chinas-moon-landing-the-space-race-with-India.html

595. Phil - December 14, 2013

@574. Loose translation, part II….”Planking class at 3:00 pm. I do some of my best work when I’m stiff as a board…”

596. MJB - December 14, 2013

Moon: Been there, done that. NASA is getting ready to boldly go where no one has gone before….Mars. Although I think they would be wise to test the Mars lander on the Moon before going to Mars.

597. Phil - December 14, 2013

The next Americans on the moon will be there, courtesy of SpaceX. When it comes to providing bold leadership for inspiring the nation (and the world), the US has a rudderless ship for a while now.

598. MJB - December 14, 2013

I’m a HUGE fan of SpaceX. They will be next on the Moon…in short order.

599. Garak's Pride - December 14, 2013

Yes, regarding Space X. Space X is the best chance for America’s future in space, not NASA.

600. Garak's Pride - December 14, 2013

Re: Andorian

“Come on people, Michael Giacchino is the hottest composer in the movies right now. You ride that guy for the rest of the movie franchise and don’t let go of him.”

Well said.

601. MJB - December 14, 2013

I wouldn’t count NASA out yet. Their interplanetary vehicle “Orion” has its first test flight in 2014. The Orion heavy launch rocket will start testing a couple years after that. NASA is also working on next generation rocket technology to get humans to Mars faster. Fun times ahead, assuming politicians keep funding it.

602. Garak's Pride - December 14, 2013

@601. NASA would try to spend $40 Billion to go to Mars. They should open it up for private industry and offer a $10 Billion prize to whoever can make it happen. The $80B Space Stations was colossally over-priced.

The NASA model no longer works.

603. MJB - December 14, 2013

Private or public, I still say there’s exciting times coming real soon….if your a fan of human spaceflight. We’ve been stuck in low-earth orbit since Apollo 17. We should have set our sights on Mars back then instead of the space shuttle and space station.

604. Red Dead Ryan - December 14, 2013

NASA requires an enormous amount of American tax dollars, something that Washington is hard-pressed to give out. SpaceX has more private money to work with, and so is better able to innovate new technologies and plan manned missions to Mars, among other things.

NASA should remain focused on the ISS and its various telescopes.

605. MJ - December 14, 2013

Guys,

Seriously, I think Russia and the U.S would make good partners for a Mars Mission. With their boosters and our ship/landers, it could be a great combination. Plus they won’t have to deal with all the regulations on using a nuclear reactor for the mission, to power the electric-plasma propulsion system which can get us to Mars in 5 weeks (and that is a great example of where they provide the reactor and we provide the propulsion device).

And this would position both us and Russia to offset China’s space efforts.

606. Captain Slow - December 14, 2013

Why would anyone want them to get rid of Michael Giacchino? Listen to the score for TSFS. It repeats most of the same themes from the previous movies. Most of Jerry Goldsmith’s music for Star Trek was very similar. Are you saying that they should only have been allowed to do one movie?

607. Captain Slow - December 14, 2013

@ 605 MJ

It would be almost like Star Trek made real. People from all over the world going out and exploring.

Have you ever seen a picture of China’s manned capsule? It looks like a rip-off of the Russian ones. It’s bad enough that everything in the shops is a cheap Chinese copy but it seems ridiculous that the spaceships are as well.

608. Phil - December 14, 2013

Well, first, a tip of the hat to the Chinese on the accomplishment. Landing on the moon is no minor accomplishment. Let’s not kid ourselves as to why they are there, though – the rover they landed is capable of surveying subsurface to 30 meters. They are looking for raw materials – it has to happen, so we should not get to high and mighty on the notion that space should be limited to research activities only. At some point if spacecraft are going to be built in zero-g environments, it only makes sense that the raw materials should be sourced close by. Not quite the spiffy clean image Trek has perpetuated, but reality….

609. MJ - December 14, 2013

I think Ahmed is the only Star Trek fan I have ever run across who didn’t like Giacchino’s soundtrack. He’s taken some minority positions here in the past, but this one takes the cake…it just does not make any sense to most of us???

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
606. Captain Slow – December 14, 2013
Why would anyone want them to get rid of Michael Giacchino? Listen to the score for TSFS. It repeats most of the same themes from the previous movies. Most of Jerry Goldsmith’s music for Star Trek was very similar. Are you saying that they should only have been allowed to do one movie?

610. MJ - December 14, 2013

@607

Agreed, Captain Slow.

611. DiscoSpock - December 14, 2013

MJ, Captain Slow,

Yes, you know, I get it that Ahmed and some others don’t like the story and the Khan thing in STID. But when you star saying MG’s music is boring and the special effects are average, well, to me, that undermines the entire credibility of the legitimate argument about the story and Khan issue.

To “pile on” every aspect of the movie as piss-poor just doesn’t seem credible to me.

612. Marja - December 14, 2013

593 Vultan, LOL; groovy! I dig it mannn!

605 MJ, Plus they won’t have to deal with all the regulations on using a nuclear reactor for the mission, to power the electric-plasma propulsion system which can get us to Mars in 5 weeks (and that is a great example of where they provide the reactor and we provide the propulsion device).

Is this for real, man? I thought the shortest time any spaceship could take to get to Mars was 2 years. I must not be very current in my space knowledge :-(

613. MJ - December 14, 2013

@612

sure, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Specific_Impulse_Magnetoplasma_Rocket

http://www.adastrarocket.com/aarc/VASIMR

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/travelinginspace/future_propulsion.html

614. MJ - December 14, 2013

Marja, in a way, you could think of this system as the first steps in creating the Impulse Engines seen in Star Trek.

615. Captain Slow - December 15, 2013

@ 609 MJ

I’ve seen other people who hated the music for ST09 and I’ve never been able to understand it. They say that they don’t like how the main theme is used throughout the movie which doesn’t make any sense to me. If it’s the main theme then it should be used as much as possible. It gives the score a unified feel as opposed to just being generic movie music. I think some people are just angry that they didn’t use the TOS theme for the whole movie.

Thanks for those space links. I hadn’t heard about VASIMR. It sounds interesting.

616. Dave H - December 15, 2013

@Captain Slow

Yea, I don’t understand it at all. Michael G. is considered on of the Top 5 composers around today, and we are so luck to have him on Star Trek. I don’t get the negativity towards his soundtrack for these two films.

617. Trekboi - December 15, 2013

I know its off topic but does anyone know whats happening with IDW releasing the “Gold Key Archives” ?
Shouldn’t the gold key issues be the 3rd edition of IDW’s “Stardate Collection”???

618. Cervantes - December 15, 2013

Okay, I’m calling it now – I’ve resigned myself to a generic ‘Klingon War’ storyline as being the direction this 3rd movie from the current writers will likely take. Fair enough, and I’ll just accept whatever the ‘shoot-‘em’-up’ effects potential for that kind of thing turns out to be, for what it is. I just hope any ‘Keenser’ appearances are kept to a bare minimum.

However, I reckon the ‘Interstellar’ storyline is going to take me on a real trek through the stars in a year’s time, so I’m good to go on a journey of wonder with that, at least.

619. Phil - December 15, 2013

Nuclear fusion gets the job done in about 90 days….

http://www.space.com/23445-mars-missions-superfast-propulsion-incredible-technology.html

620. Captain Slow - December 15, 2013

@ 618 Cervantes

You know, the way people talk about Keenser you’d think he spent all of both movies reciting long monologues. He had very little screentime and only ever said one word. What did he do that caused everyone to hate him so much?

621. Gary 8.5 - December 15, 2013

I Know Lindelof wanted The Klingon War, but he is gone .
Has Bob said they are going to use the Klingons ?
I thought Bob was interested in The Borg.

622. Michael Hall - December 15, 2013

“However, I reckon the ‘Interstellar’ storyline is going to take me on a real trek through the stars in a year’s time, so I’m good to go on a journey of wonder with that, at least.”

*Sigh* So many things I don’t care for in Abrams Trek, but I could live with them all if it weren’t for its total lack of a sense of wonder about the possibilities of space travel, or encountering the unknown, or our human potential, or much of anything else. As Andrew O’Heier said in his fine (and very measured) review of STID, it feels not only like it is set in an alternate universe but like it was produced in one, where the source material was a Marvel comics franchise rather than a humanistic pop-cultural artifact from the ’60s. That may indeed make it, as many others on these boards have insisted, a “Trek for the 21st Century”–but if true it only furthers my sad conviction (and that of Lewis Black) that, so far at least, the new century has been quite the let-down.

623. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@ 620. Captain Slow – December 15, 2013

“You know, the way people talk about Keenser you’d think he spent all of both movies reciting long monologues. He had very little screentime and only ever said one word. What did he do that caused everyone to hate him so much?”

Because he remind people of Jar Jar Binks!

624. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@613. MJ

Trip to Mars in only 5 weeks, wow !
Thanks a lot for the links, dude.

625. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@ 619. Phil – December 15, 2013

“Nuclear fusion gets the job done in about 90 days….”

Even better!

626. dmduncan - December 15, 2013

Well thanks for checking it out, at least, MJ.

So far the site got 53 visits from the link here, but only 16 people bothered to actually click on the link to the PDF, and I suspect that of those 16 just a fraction bothered to read more than a few paragraphs.

So, feedback, even when—or perhaps because?—stuff is free, remains elusive.

But that’s actually a lot more clicks than I thought I’d get hosting it on my site, so it’s nicely surprising.

627. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@ 618. Cervantes – December 15, 2013

“However, I reckon the ‘Interstellar’ storyline is going to take me on a real trek through the stars in a year’s time, so I’m good to go on a journey of wonder with that, at least.”

Yeah, even with the high production values in the new Trek movies, they never managed to give that sense of wonder that come from exploring the unknown.

I’m very excited for “Interstellar” & can’t wait to see what Christopher Nolan will do.

628. MJB - December 15, 2013

626. dmduncan
I downloaded the PDF but it’ll be a while before I can read it…I’m busy painting our living room, dining room, kitchen and family room before Christmas!!!
I’ll give you feedback down the road a week or so.

629. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@626. dmduncan

I finished reading the treatment last night & I really enjoyed reading it.

I like that you managed to bring familiar faces in ways that didn’t seemed forced. The opening scene with the Klingon invasion was terrific & epic.

You addressed Kirk fast promotion in a much better than they did in STID. The war with the Klingon Empire was amazing. Kirk was at his best maneuvering against Chang.

My one little issue, that the two Klingons in the opening scene were acting more like humans than Klingon warriors. From their talking about paying the bills & later when one of them starts smoking a cigarette.

I loved all scenes with Bones, my favorite ones:

————————
“McCOY: You have GOT to be kidding me! You beamed up when you could’ve used your feet to climb on board? Isn’t there some regulation against unnecessary use of the transporter?

“Spock,” McCoy says, “you look exactly like a kid in a candy store!”
“Really doctor, I see no need for insults. This mission will…”
Spock and McCoy trail off, bickering.”
————————

Oh and I loved the scene where Uhura tells Kirk:

————————
UHURA: You’re the captain of a starship. You’ll have to start acting like one.
————————

Well done,

630. Michael Hall - December 15, 2013

626. dmduncan – December 15, 2013

Still working on it, never fear. Really enjoyed the opening (and, unlike Ahmed apparently, appreciated your take on the Klingon soldiers as working-class joes rather than Qa’pla!-spouting fanatics). And while I’m not huge on the Stones, fwiw I’ll take them any day over the Beastie Boys.

My main take so far: you have a real gift for presenting this stuff in the JJ-verse style while preserving the essential TOS substance that was, for me at least, largely missing from these two films. Not easy to do, I know, with a property so old and in many ways so dated. But if it could be done with James Bond, a character whose original raison d’etre arguably no longer even exists, then why not with Trek?

631. Red Shirt Diaries - December 15, 2013

#623

“Because he remind people of Jar Jar Binks!”

That’s not even close, nor is it funny. You are the only person I know who has ever said that. Your hate for JJ Trek just gets worse over time. Sigh!

I love Keenser. He’s like Chewbacca.

632. Red Shirt Diaries - December 15, 2013

#627

“Yeah, even with the high production values in the new Trek movies, they never managed to give that sense of wonder that come from exploring the unknown.”

So you must not be a fan of Star Trek’s 2, 3, 4, 6 then, right? ST-TMP and STV I would thus assume are your favorite Trek films then, right? And of TNG films, obviously, Star Trek Insurrection if your favorite then, right?

633. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@ 631. Red Shirt Diaries – December 15, 2013

” #623
“Because he remind people of Jar Jar Binks!”
That’s not even close, nor is it funny. You are the only person I know who has ever said that.”

Really ? I guess you never go to other Trek forums or even read any article that dare to criticize your beloved STID

“But that was nothing compared to the the surprise introduction of Mr Scott’s Ewok sidekick, Keenser. This turd with eyes looks like a permanent fix in Star Trek now with Deep Roy, the actor who played it stating that he believes Keenser will be in Star Trek Into Darkness. As welcome as Jar Jar Binks, Keenser is there to keep the young audience members amused but annoy and distract everyone else. Comedy sidekicks like this rarely work and Keenser is no exception. It appears his skill is climbing on things with Scotty shouting at him to ”GET DOWN!”…hilarious.

http://whatculture.com/film/15-blunders-that-ruined-j-j-abrams-star-trek-and-destroyed-the-franchise.php/8

634. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@ 632. Red Shirt Diaries – December 15, 2013

“So you must not be a fan of Star Trek’s 2, 3, 4, 6 then, right? ST-TMP and STV I would thus assume are your favorite Trek films then, right? And of TNG films, obviously, Star Trek Insurrection if your favorite then, right?”

None of the previous TOS & TNG movies has the same budget as STID.

When you have a $190 million dollar budget & all you can do is show the Klingon homeworld for few minutes & then stick around Earth for the second time, then you are wasting your budget.

635. MJB - December 15, 2013

Keenser was only in a couple scenes….unlike JJB who was a central part of that awful SW movie.

636. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@ 635. MJB – December 15, 2013

“Keenser was only in a couple scenes….unlike JJB who was a central part of that awful SW movie.”

True, and I didn’t find it funny. Some people think he is funny but not me.

Just my opinion, don’t see why Red Shirt Diaries was so angry about it!!

637. Red Dead Ryan - December 15, 2013

Geez, is Ahmed holding another of his STID “bash-fests” again????

He’s unfairly knocked Michael Giacchino, one of the top composers today in Hollywood, but now he’s comparing Keenser to Jar Jar Binks?

WTF????? Where does he get off with this kind of mindset? Does he not bother paying any attention to how ridiculous his arguments are? Does he not realize that Keenser and Jar Jar Binks are nothing alike?

Ahmed simply has no credibility here when he makes the kind of ignorant comments that he has repeatedly been shown to make on this site.

638. Phil - December 15, 2013

@626. I took a quick look, and want to go back and re-read. Liked the opening segment – from real world experience, I volunteer at USO, and a lot of these Marines that come through are just regular guys, fretting over girlfriends, playing cards, reading their Bibles, or shaking off a hangover….not the “I love the smell of napalm” types the movies tend to portray. I’d have no reason to suspect that Federation or Klingon Marines would behave differently, but ‘everyday’ people in Trek tend to be quoting Shakespeare, chess playing wine sippers. JJ’s Trek has left a huge void in defining Federation (and other) civilization. You seem to be doing a decent job at filling in the blanks….

More to follow…

639. Red Dead Ryan - December 15, 2013

The top composers in Hollywood today:

1. John Williams
2. Michael Giacchino
3. Hans Zimmer
4. Howard Shore
5. Thomas Newman

640. DiscoSpock - December 15, 2013

Ahmed, you don’t like story/script, and you don’t like Khan — those are some legitimate criticisms that you and others have done a pretty good job defending — so I am fine with that, even if I don’t fully agree with that opinion.

But then, to take down in a negative way the things that worked so well in the films like MG’s outstanding score, ILM’s awesome Star Trek universe special effects, and unfairly comparing Keenser to Jar Jar, just shows me that you really can’t stand most of JJ Trek.

And frankly, hearing you whine about all of the rest of this stuff kind of reduced the credibility of your legitimate critiques of the story and Khan. You basically come across as someone who is looking for any reason to post negative stuff here you can about these movies.

641. DiscoSpock - December 15, 2013

Red Shirt,

The Chewbaca comparison is one I agree fully with. Keenser is the engineering sidekick/fix it alien sidekick to Scotty, just like Chewie was to Solo. And like Chewie, he speaks in alien sounds, doesn’t have delivered major lines, and is generally a helpful and charming support character to Chewie.

This Jar Jar Binks comparison is grossly inaccurate and moronic.

642. Andorian - December 15, 2013

Guys, Keenser is a great addition to the crew. Love that little guy!

643. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@640. DiscoSpock

“But then, to take down in a negative way the things that worked so well in the films like MG’s outstanding score, ILM’s awesome Star Trek universe special effects, and unfairly comparing Keenser to Jar Jar, just shows me that you really can’t stand most of JJ Trek.”

1- Michael Giacchino: Like I told MJ, music is personal taste. I like MG score for ST09, it was new & fresh. In STID, it was almost the same music with the exception of “London Calling”. I didn’t feel that he added anything this time around.

2- “ILM’s awesome Star Trek universe special effects”: Read my post again, MJ actually understood what I was saying. The special effects were your typical summer movie effects. Good but nothing outstanding. With $190 million, they didn’t show new planets. Just the Klingon homeworld & Earth for the 2nd time. This was the fault of the story, not the special effects guys.

3- “unfairly comparing Keenser to Jar Jar” : huh, why unfairly ? Is Keenser such a complex & interesting character that it so unfair to compare him to Jar Jar ?

644. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@DiscoSpock, Red Shirt Diaries & RDR & the rest,

Can’t believe that we are arguing about the AMAZING Keenser !

Guys, have no worry. For all I care, he could win Oscar for best supporting actor!

May you all enjoy his company for many years to come.

LLAP

—————————-CASE CLOSED———————————————-

645. MJB - December 15, 2013

643. Ahmed
The effects were good but nothing outstanding? Are you sure you saw STID? I thought it had outstanding effects which were done by ILM – the premier VFX company. I was thrilled to finally have a big-league Trek movie that looked as good as it did.

646. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@ 645. MJB – December 15, 2013

“643. Ahmed
The effects were good but nothing outstanding? Are you sure you saw STID? I thought it had outstanding effects which were done by ILM – the premier VFX company. I was thrilled to finally have a big-league Trek movie that looked as good as it did.”

The effects were good but my point was how they use it. As I said in that comment, “With $190 million, they didn’t show new planets. Just the Klingon homeworld & Earth for the 2nd time. This was the fault of the story, not the special effects guys.”.

647. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

===========================

Here’s what China’s Yutu rover is doing on the Moon

This weekend, the China National Space Administration (国家航天局, or CNSA) landed its Chang’e-3 lander on the Moon, deploying the Yutu rover on a 3-month mission to explore the dark lava plains of Bay of Rainbows, northeast of Mare Imbrium. It will also leave a powerful telescope behind, to watch the stars.

http://io9.com/heres-what-chinas-yutu-rover-is-doing-on-the-moon-1483746967
===========================

Video clips of the Chinese landing in the link.

648. Spock's Brain - December 15, 2013

Well well, I see MJ and his many aliases have shown up again , this time to try and support an argument that keenser wasn’t a jar-jar equivalent . Amusing. And they/he is right, Keenser was JJ’s version of the ewoks. Meant to be cute and funny and ultimately was neither.
FACT!

649. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

@ 626. dmduncan – December 15, 2013

“So far the site got 53 visits from the link here, but only 16 people bothered to actually click on the link to the PDF, and I suspect that of those 16 just a fraction bothered to read more than a few paragraphs.
So, feedback, even when—or perhaps because?—stuff is free, remains elusive.”

trekmovie & the Trek sites are not as active as before. Since nothing really happening in Trek world, not many people are coming to the site.

To reach more people, you should consider posting on one of the sci-fi subreddits on reddit or any of the major sci-fi forums.

650. John Happs - December 15, 2013

Welcome on board to the newcomers, but I hope they have the discernment to look beyond internet trolling and see that STID was awesome too, regardless of how much some would like to claim it wasn’t.

Way too many people online like to complain only and do nothing positive for the franchise, but when you look at the box office results for the other movies that summer, and the fact STID is still the Star Trek movie that grossed most money overall (US & foreign sales), people can’t put it down on the basis of sales either, or of quality of the story.

There are old-school Trek fans who have loved it since TOS and who love JJ’s movies also. I am one of those. The people complaining online like to often make it look like we don’t exist, but we do.

651. dmduncan - December 15, 2013

Thanks for reading, Ahmed. Glad you liked it and the scenes I gave McCoy.

Thanks, Michael. I conceived of it as a sequel to what JJ Abrams made, so I thought it had to have the same epic fast paced visual appeal, but I also wanted to take it beyond what JJ did, in spirit more faithful to the intentions of TOS. Based on what you are telling me so far, it sounds like I’m achieving what I had hoped to do.

Phil, it makes he happy you said that because I was one of those Marines, once a upon a time. I’ve been to the USO once or twice, and I used my experience to flesh the Klingons out in ways that we do not usually think of them. TNGs Klingons reminded me of the stereotypical Marine always trying to “GET SOOOME!!!” before firing his machine gun indiscriminately at anything that moves. I wanted to show that in unguarded moments between the stereotypically Klingon behavior of grunting about honor, they have the same concerns as the rest of us trying to live. They are warriors but they can also be family men doing a job for the empire.

So Ahmed, it’s a compliment that they seem more human. To me that means “more real.”

There are no guys to hate in A Crowning Sea of Stars. Klingons are the antagonists, yes, but none of them are either disposable or disposed of. There isn’t a single Klingon grunting anywhere in my story, and Kirk’s victory does not come through the destruction or humiliation of Chang, who was the only Klingon in the vicinity to figure out that something more was going on. And with Kulkukan, I think I’ve returned the Klingons back to their cunning roots in TOS as “bad guys” you have to reckon with and can’t just sweep aside.

Also, in TOS we know that Kirk has some fame among the Klingons, but we never really ever learned why that is. This story shows the beginning of the Kirk legend and how the Klingons come to know who he is, so I think the “movie” fills in some of the backstory that Kirk came with in TOS.

652. dmduncan - December 15, 2013

Once more for those who missed it—if you go to the following link and click on the link there you will find the PDF of the sequel I came up with to ST.09.

http://thedoomsdaydiet.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/star-trek-a-crowning-sea-of-stars/

I would love to hear Bob’s opinion.

653. Ahmed - December 15, 2013

========================
All Three AVATAR Sequels Will Be Filmed in New Zealand

James Cameron has issued a statement that he plans to shoot Avatar 2, Avatar 3, and Avatar 4 in New Zealand. According to The Wrap, the three sequels will be shot at the same time, and “perhaps over a period of about nine months.”
…………….
Of course, this works to 20th Century Fox and Lightstorm Entertainment’s benefit as well. The Wrap reports, “New Zealand’s government has agreed to a 25 percent financial rebate, up from the current 15 percent,” and Cameron expects the budget on all three sequels to come in beneath $1 billion, which is surprising when you consider that the first film was reported to have cost $500 million. Avatar 2 is set for December 2016 followed by Avatar 3 in December 2017 and then Avatar 4 in December 2018.

http://collider.com/avatar-sequels-new-zealand-filming/

654. Red Dead Ryan - December 15, 2013

#648. Spock’s Brain,

If you are truly “Spock’s Brain”, you would have realized beforehand that your statement is highly irrational, highly emotional, and definitely highly illogical.

Of course, your post reminds me of those posted by Spock’s Bangs. Very similar, indeed. I will leave it to others to figure out. :-)

655. MJ - December 15, 2013

Hey Spock’s Bangs….whoops, I mean “Spock’s Brain.”

Honestly,

#1. If you are going to sock-puppet, then don’t forget you name next time. LOL. I mean, seriously dude, can you be anymore obvious about it. :-))))

#2. This repeated concept you have that if you can accuse me and others of sock-puppeting as a supposedly clever attempt at subterfuge to hide the real puppet master — YOU !!!! — it’s not working. We can all see through it. LOL

Bring your A-game next time please. This amateurish stuff just confirms you as the “prima buffoon” of Trekmovie.com. Keep you fake names straight and don’t try you preemptive strike that accuses other’s of the troling tactics that you yourself are trying to pull off here.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

648. Spock’s Brain – December 15, 2013
Well well, I see MJ and his many aliases have shown up again , this time to try and support an argument that keenser wasn’t a jar-jar equivalent . Amusing. And they/he is right, Keenser was JJ’s version of the ewoks. Meant to be cute and funny and ultimately was neither.
FACT!

656. MJ - December 15, 2013

@653. Very cool — thanks Ahmed.

657. K-7 - December 15, 2013

Spocks Bangs / Spocks Brain

B U S T E D ! ! !

;-)

658. MJ - December 15, 2013

R.I.P. Peter O’Toole

Lawrence of Arabia is in my Top 10 all time favorite films…probably in my Top 5.

659. Red Dead Ryan - December 16, 2013

“Lawrence of Arabia” is a classic. Sad couple of weeks. First, Paul Walker, then Nelson Mandela, now Peter O’Toole. R.I.P to all three. They will be sorely missed.

660. Anthony Thompson - December 16, 2013

655. MJ — The Grand Return !!!

Maybe Spock’s Brain has just been a lurker on the board and you have finally forced him to come out. I agree with you, though, on the substance. Keenser is a ‘blink and you’ve missed him’ kind of character, not a jarring Jar-Jar. But I still wonder why anyone felt the need to invent him? He doesn’t add anything to the proceedings.

661. Hillary - December 16, 2013

652. dmduncan – december 15, 2013

I have not read all the way, but this is rather novelistic (suggest), not good for movie.
Due to the structure.
But I try to read too carefully at night.
Respect

662. Anthony Thompson - December 16, 2013

Marja, I’m still waiting for your response to my calling you out for your inaccurate information on “Diva”.

663. Dave H - December 16, 2013

Spock’s Bang’s aka Spock’s Brain,

Dude, what a moron you are – can’t you even remember to type your clone warrior’s name right?

You are the most inept and obvious sockpuppet master of all time here.

What a Charlatan.

664. Disinvited - December 16, 2013

#658. MJ – December 15, 2013
#659. Red Dead Ryan – December 16, 2013

Agreed and agreed.

The one thing is I loved is that even though I and others became resigned to his eventual passing, he never did.

Oddly, the one recent death that made me feel old was that of BILLY JACK’s namesake actor/creator, Tom Laughlin at 82.

“Go ahead and hate your neighbor. Go ahead and cheat a friend…”

665. dmduncan - December 16, 2013

661. Hillary – December 16, 2013

Novelistic? I have no idea what you mean. Please, give me an example.

When I write I write for the medium I am targeting. I write surprise ending short stories, for instance, that would not work as movies because they take advantage of the literary form to work the way they do.

I don’t think A Crowning Sea of Stars would work very well as a novel except, perhaps, as one written as an adaption of the movie it was based on, and that’s because the core of the story is epic visual action. Not only that, but where in a novel there would be explanations of internal states of mind, I carefully point out “space” for music that expresses the emotion of the scene and the characters, so again it’s designed to go for your emotions the way movies do—not novels—and there’s quite a few of those moments in the story.

This movie would also probably have a bigger budget than STID if it was shot as written. Now granted, every now and then characters may have to trade PARAGRAPHS rather than what sounds like the back and forth POP! of a ping pong ball, so it may not consist entirely of brief snippets of dialogue—but neither do the best movies ever made. I tried to honor JJs style so that the movie would match ST.09 (being its imagined sequel), but I also tried to go beyond JJ’s “phobia” of exploring characters a little more authentically, less comic-bookishly. Nothing wrong with comics, but that’s not Star Trek’s lineage.

It’s also a first polished DRAFT—it’s a DRAFT, guys, please keep that in mind— and I am careful to note in the story that I am conscious that some stuff is not movie worthy but would be cool for an extended cut DVD version.

So, this is the unedited version that has ALMOST everything I came up with at the time it was done—not the version that contains only what I think would or should end up on the screen for a blockbuster movie, or that represents the extent of the action the final version would have, yes?

It’s a polished but unedited treatment, not a script. Plenty of discovery remains because the writing process wasn’t finished.

And because it’s not going to be produced I’m also not going to develop it any further. So this is where it will stay, which is also why I released it.

But if I was going to really shoot this thing I would produce several more drafts of the treatment, editing and polishing, and THEN I would turn it into a screenplay and polish THAT up a few times.

Before I was ready to write the first screenplay the final treatment would have all the extended DVD scenes that I would ideally like to shoot, offset in a different color text, with the core screen story all in black.

Thanks for your feedback, Hillary.

666. Michael Hall - December 16, 2013

Wow. Hadn’t heard about Laughlin. It’s a mostly forgotten pop-cultural curio now, but for a little while in the mid-seventies BILLY JACK was as big a phenomenon as you could imagine–a clumsy, sincere effort that (sadly, like TOS) was borne along by an idealism that seems totally alien to our present moment. “One tin soldier rides away. . .”

667. dmduncan - December 16, 2013

Reboot Billy Jack? Just keep Cumberbatch away from the lead role auditions, please.

Living in Indian country the way I do, the Billy Jack movies are not as forgotten as they may be elsewhere.

668. Disinvited - December 16, 2013

#666. Michael Hall – December 16, 2013, 667. dmduncan – December 16, 2013

It should also probably be noted that Laughlin single-handedly created out of nothing a new movie marketing strategy back then that is largely responsible for Netflix’s success today.

669. Spock's Name - December 16, 2013

Of course Spock’s Bangs and Spock’s Brain are one and the same! If I got a head that’s growing bangs on the outside, I got a brain exposing the proxy king on the inside!! Leave it to MJ and the sock puppet parade to figure out the obvious!! I shall return.
FACT!!

670. Anthony Thompson - December 16, 2013

667. dmduncan

You need not worry. I assume that Cumberbatch would stay far away from any auditions for a ‘Billy Jack’ reboot. LOL.

671. crazydaystrom - December 16, 2013

O’Toole, Fontaine and McLaughlin. The whole thing about death in three’s.

My friends and I were huge Billy Jack fans in highschool. Pre-Bruce Lee he was THE “karate kicking” hero. (I know his martial art was not karate.) We were always using his line “…I JUST GO BERSERK!!”, often followed by a bunch of insane kicking and swinging like the crazy kids we were! hahah Back in the day…

672. Michael Hall - December 16, 2013

We were always using his line “…I JUST GO BERSERK!!”, often followed by a bunch of insane kicking and swinging like the crazy kids we were! hahah Back in the day…”

Yep, nothing like seeing the bully get his. If you were of the same generation and political persuasion as I was, there were few things more satisfying than seeing an ostensibly liberal, pacifistic character kick major ass. I don’t think it any coincidence that David Carradine also happened to get rich and famous about the same time, and demonstrating the same principle, on American network television week after week after week.

Finished your opus, dmduncan, and enjoyed it quite a bit, though with some considerable reservations. You’re a clever, witty writer, and in grounding the Trek universe in recognizable pop culture you, if anything, out-JJ hisownself. Sometimes that works for me (the use of the Rolling Stones in your great opening sequence), and sometimes it crosses the line (a Klingon boasting of his New York accent? Nah.) I like your addressing the Kirk promotion as you did, and frankly think you did do a better job of it overall than STID– but am still left to wonder what your treatment ultimately was meant to convey apart from that. Perhaps there were just some subtleties that I missed (it’s currently not the best of times for me, unfortunately, and my concentration at the moment isn’t what it should be), but I’d be interested to know what themes you were trying to develop here if you’d care to address that. In any case, an impressive effort overall, dude. I don’t need to tell you that you’ve got talent, and should keep at it. New Voyages/Phase II, whose “Kitumba” your story somewhat resembles (and which should be released, finally, in January) is always on the lookout for great scripts by those who know and love Trek, and who have the right stuff. Based on what I’ve seen, I think you’d be a slam-dunk.

673. Michael Hall - December 16, 2013

Oh, and dm? Forgot to mention this. USS Bradley Manning? That’s just frakkin awesome.

674. Marja - December 16, 2013

662 Thompson, Oh, sorry. My response is “I’m embarrassed.” I should have checked IMdb.

I was just responding positively to your idea of Luc Besson and mistakenly attributing “Diva” to Besson. I still recommend “Diva” BTW.

I bow to your superior knowledge of French directors sir.

Will that do?

675. crazydaystrom - December 16, 2013

672. Michael Hall

Yep, nothing like seeing the bully get his. If you were of the same generation and political persuasion as I was, there were few things more satisfying than seeing an ostensibly liberal, pacifistic character kick major ass. I don’t think it any coincidence that David Carradine also happened to get rich and famous about the same time, and demonstrating the same principle, on American network television week after week after week.

Yeah that makes me think of a fairly obscure comicbook character from the 60’s I use to read, The Peacemaker. He was described as “A man who loved peace so much that he was willing to fight for it!” (?!)

676. dmduncan - December 16, 2013

673. Michael Hall – December 16, 2013

Thanks. That’s the kind of feedback I was looking for.

And you are right about the New York accent. I didn’t feel confident about that but I figure it was a treatment and the repository of all my ideas, so I’d throw it in there for consideration. As I was writing that I just figured since I was envisioning Steve Buscemi as the Klingon, and he has that accent, then let me try to make it part of the story rather than ignore it, whether it works or not.

The only theme I had in mind running through the story was an anti-war one, but I didn’t expand on it in the treatment other than by having Kirk use avoiding war as a reason to do the raid.

My mission was to use Kirk taking and beating the Kobyashi Maru test for real as the crux of an action packed movie that would do well at the box office since I approached this whole exercise as a real movie sequel; in the process I wanted to solve some of the problems raised by ST.09, expand the universe and the characterizations a bit, and get the franchise ready for the five year mission.

All the side stuff with Aalmala and Kulkukan are related stubs for a much bigger far more epic story that I have in mind, and THAT is where I address a much more Star Trekky theme while expanding the Star Trek universe in a big way with some serious world-building exercises.

THAT one would be my masterpiece. THIS one was a fun way of getting there.

Thanks again for taking the time to read and comment on it, Michael, despite how you’re feeling. I don’t know what your situation is so I don’t want to make assumptions and say something that doesn’t fit you.

I’ll just pray that things get better for you.

677. crazydaystrom - December 16, 2013

dmduncan-

Finally getting around to reading some of your sequel; only five scenes/sections so far. Good reading, sir. I especially like your description of the Andorian Queen. I won’t comment any further until I’ve read the entire piece but again, good reading so far.

678. Anthony Thompson - December 16, 2013

674. Marja

Oh, yes, that’ll do. : ) Actually, I’m very happy to see another fan of ‘Diva’ here. One of my favorite films of all time. But the director of that would likely make a fairly quirky Trek. Maybe not such a bad thing?

679. Curious Cadet - December 16, 2013

@676. dmduncan,
“As I was writing that I just figured since I was envisioning Steve Buscemi as the Klingon, and he has that accent, then let me try to make it part of the story rather than ignore it, whether it works or not.”

Haha, that’s how they should have explained Khan — he saw pulling off Harrison as a personal challenge, and should have bragged to Kirk about his English accent!

I did download it, but probably won’t be able to digest it until Christmas when I finally get some me time. Looking forward to it though …

680. Ahmed - December 16, 2013

2016 Release dates:

WarCraft. Director: Duncan Jones, Release date: March 11, 2016

The Mummy. Director: Andres Muschietti, Release date: April 22, 2016

Alice in Wonderland 2. Director: James Bobin, Release date: May 27, 2016

X-Men: Apocalypse. Director: Bryan Singer, Release date: May 27, 2016

The Amazing Spider-Man 3. Director: TBD , Release date: June 10, 2016

ID 2. Director: Roland Emmerich, Release date: July 1, 2016

Avatar 2. Director: James Cameron , Release date: December 2016

Star Trek XIII. Director: TBD, Release date: TBD

681. crazydaystrom - December 16, 2013

680. Ahmed

Ahmed I think someone already suggested for a title of the next movie-

Star Trek: TBD

682. Gary 8.5 - December 16, 2013

681.Its not that bad .
We are three years out after all.

683. Ahmed - December 16, 2013

@ 682. Gary 8.5 – December 16, 2013

“Its not that bad . We are three years out after all.”

Sure, why the rush? Paramount/Bad Robot are fast & quick, won’t take them more than one year to finish the movie :)

684. Ahmed - December 16, 2013

@ 681. crazydaystrom – December 16, 2013

“Ahmed I think someone already suggested for a title of the next movie-
Star Trek: TBD”

lol
I just hope they will come up with an interesting title this time .

685. Marja - December 16, 2013

Hi dmduncan, I started your story the other night, but I’m busy with several projects ATM. I’m “sipping” the script if you will, rather than drinking it all in one go.

BTW I’m not sure Bob can legally read, and give you concrit on, a Star Trek script, due to his contractual obligations, the legalities of copyrights, lawsuits, &c., so please don’t take it amiss if he doesn’t do it.

The scene with Kirk and Pike was lovely in the mind’s eye [I enjoyed 23rd century NYC] and seemed quite true to both characters.

Your McCoy was spot-on, especially the bit about just walking onto the ship. I will be amazed if you don’t get talkback about your putting the starship on the ground ;-)

I liked Uhura’s advice to Kirk!!

Some quick concrit, the scene with the Klingons [combined with the Stones' "Gimme Shelter"] was reminiscent of “Platoon” … I see you are a Marine, so maybe “Platoon” is reminiscent of your real-life experience :-) … I know you were getting an American audience to relate to the Klingon soldiers, but I think the soldiers seem a little too human, especially speaking American slang. Not that they should grunt, or use overly formal mystical Klingon Braga-Berman-era language, but … the same sentiments could be communicated in a relatable manner without the echo of American “grunts,” perhaps. Haha, maybe they could even bitch about “honor” as related to their commander ….

I loved the Andorian queen scene, with her native turf lovingly spread before her by her followers [cool concept], I thought her name seemed a bit similar to Natalie Portman’s character in Star Wars ep. 1 — what was it, Amidala ? [I remember thinking her name sounded funnily like "amygdala"]. I like the vision of her striding confidently forward, sure of her support.

I also appreciated your use of Bradley Manning for a starship name! (Though Manning if asked would prob prefer “Chelsea Manning” seeing as that’s her name now ….)

686. dmduncan - December 16, 2013

685. Marja – December 16, 2013

Oh hey thanks for taking your time! That will be important when you get to the second musical link that goes with the scene where Kirk is laying back letting Uhura and Spock rig the equipment. If you don’t read my instructions for that link carefully, you may think I’m nuts. Unlike the Stones’ Gimme Shelter, that is not a literal musical recommendation, but guidance for the feel the music should have that goes along with the montage of scenes there.

So if I was directing this movie, I would sit down with my composer and have him listen to that and ask him to give me a similar feel for that montage that fits what he’s doing for the rest of the movie.

The Klingons on the drop ship are actually speaking Klingonese; it’s the translation that sounds like slang. ;-) But the idea there is that we have more in common with them than we think.

Glad you liked Aalmala. Yes, her name sort of sounds like Amidala, but there I promise you the resemblence ends. Aalmala is far more powerful, with a very unique ability that only the sitting Queen she is about to replace has….

But that is another story.

“I also appreciated your use of Bradley Manning for a starship name! (Though Manning if asked would prob prefer “Chelsea Manning” seeing as that’s her name now ….)”

The real world outdated me since I wrote that! Let that be a lesson! I changed not a single word (not even the few typos that I somehow missed!) since I finished it way back when.

Thanks for your feedback, Marja. Hope you like the rest and the expanded role I gave Uhura.

687. Hugh Hoyland - December 16, 2013

dmduncan

Okay I enjoyed Star Trek: A crowning sea of Stars

1. WHEN KLINGONS ATTACK!
Good opening WAR scene. I really didnt have a problem with the “humanish” way the Klingons talked while going into battle. Hey its just another day at the job for these guys right. The fight on the planet would look great on the big screen IMO (and emotional, with the alien mother and kids). This scene is a nice set up and forshadows future events quite well.
2. COCKY YOUNG CAPTAIN!
This would really rock on screen IMO. It also forshadows Rands eventual return to the Enterprise. Nice visual of the Ent rising above Kirk. Nice comedic jab from Bones and some sexual tension between Kirk and Uhura (a strong sub plot to the story that pays off at the end.)
3.) FUTURE’S SO BRIGHT HE HAS TO WEAR SHADES!
I like the visual of 23 century NYC. I also like the interaction between Pike and Kirk, you can tell Pike really likes (cares) for this young Captain and believes in him. Also the intro to the five year mission unfolds.
4. THE ANDORIAN QUEEN
Interesting set up for something you said will be Epic. The Queen in an intriguing figure.
5. GRAND PRIZE LOSER!
Our heros obstacle. IMO all scripts/stories have em. Its when he/she’s down and out. Maybe losing it all.
6. CAPTAIN DUNSEL
A contuation of the obstacle, BUT with a glimer of hope. And that hope comes from Uhura, a character that so far doesnt seem to be on Kirks side at this point in the story.
7. “THE MISSION, SHOULD YOU DECIDE TO ACCEPT IT…
Kirks redemption. The Kobyashi Maru! The one thing that nearly got Kirk booted out of the academy, may in fact be the one thing that stops an intergalactic war. Nice touch IMO. Still a tense scene, not knowing if the others will buy it or not.

I’ll continue to add more thoughts (8 and onward) as soon as possible I’m dealing with a sick family member at the moment. So thats taking up a lot of my time. But like I said I enoyed this story overall and will post more asap.

688. dmduncan - December 16, 2013

685. Marja – December 16, 2013

BTW I’m not sure Bob can legally read, and give you concrit on, a Star Trek script, due to his contractual obligations, the legalities of copyrights, lawsuits, &c., so please don’t take it amiss if he doesn’t do it.

***

You might be right, Marja. I’m not familiar with all the legal bottlenecking that goes on in Bob’s industry, but I do remember a tweet where he said he couldn’t read scripts that weren’t represented by an agent. That’s also why I made it clear on my blog’s intro that I am not saying Bob read it.

But now it’s public. Presumably Bob can read whatever he wants to on the internet, just like anyone else.

@ 687. Hugh Hoyland – December 16, 2013

Thanks Hugh. I appreciate it. Family is definitely a much higher priority, so deal with your real issues before your entertainment.

689. MJ - December 16, 2013

New tactic — let’s pretent that I (Spock’s Brain) made the mistake ON PURPOSE so that no one will accuse me of sock-puppeting.

LOL. What a load of crap. HA HA HA Get lost, moron.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
669. Spock’s Name – December 16, 2013
Of course Spock’s Bangs and Spock’s Brain are one and the same! If I got a head that’s growing bangs on the outside, I got a brain exposing the proxy king on the inside!! Leave it to MJ and the sock puppet parade to figure out the obvious!! I shall return.
FACT!!

690. MJ - December 16, 2013

Hugh, DM,

I guess one of the reasons the story didn’t click 100% with me (yet, it’s a damn good effort), is I have already seen two major Star Trek movies now with the Kobyashi Maru. I really don’t need to have that as a theme again — this is just me personal preference. And similarly, I really am sick of the Klingons and Romulans as well.

I’d like the next movie to go to “strange new worlds” and frankly, it I don’t see earth for the next couple of movies, I will be a happy guy.

But this is a very good story, and I would have preferred this story to STID for the 2nd movie…but I don’t want this type of story now for the 3rd movie given the repetition issues I mention above.

This would make one hell of a Star Trek novel.

691. dmduncan - December 16, 2013

690. MJ – December 16, 2013

Thanks, MJ. It won’t be the third movie for sure.

This is conceived and really only fits as a direct sequel to ST.09. When my story opens, Kirk is just too much the way he was at the end of ST.09 to go back to how this movie begins after what happened in STID.

Both STID and ACSoS both tried to do the same things regarding Kirk, but in radically different ways.

So just consider this an imaginary alternate universe sequel to ST.09 that replaces STID, not something that could possibly come after STID.

I mean, STID killed Pike, and he’s too important to the story of ACSoS. It wouldn’t be the same without him.

692. MJ - December 17, 2013

Ah, DM,

Given that explanation, yes indeed, this would have been a great alternate sequel to STID.

693. boborci - December 17, 2013

I am so shocked to read something so hateful to America.

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/an-act-of-war-cia-leak-gives-incontrovertible-evidence-that-911-was-state-sponsored_12162013

Beat part? Still a cover story. Phase2.

694. Anthony Thompson - December 17, 2013

Bob, any comment on your co-writers? Will you be using the same working methodology with them as you have with Kurtzman?

695. Anthony Thompson - December 17, 2013

And, Bob, why are you up so freakin’ late?

696. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - December 17, 2013

@dmduncan

A Crowning Sea of Stars

I’m just an ordinary trekkie with no talents in the creative arts, so I won’t presume to offer a meaningful critique. I can only say what I personally liked or disliked about it.

I finally got around to reading it, and quite enjoyed it.

I actually liked the concept of planting a virus to disable the Klingon vessels’ systems – a real-world application of the Kobyashi Maru cheat. That’s an example of irony, I think. I absolutely loved the name given the virus.

The Andorian Revera Matre reminded me somewhat of the Bene Gesserit – just the vibe I got…

Poor Cupcake bought it, just as he did in the novelisation of STID, although the movie itself is ambiguous on his fate.

I wasn’t too sure about Spock putting his hand on a stranger’s shoulder. To me, that seemed out of character.

I’m also not sure I buy the softer side to the Klingon soldiers with the alien children, but what do I know – it is the nature of conflict to objectify the ‘other’ as being less than we are. On the other hand, I could well imagine the Earthies as a sub-culture.

I wouldn’t mind seeing it rounded out as a novel or as a movie, although as noted by yourself and others, this is an alternative sequel – another (slightly different) alternative universe, perhaps :-)

697. boborci - December 17, 2013

694.

like their energy and skill. Rumors of Kurtzman’s lack of involvement are premature. amazing that entertainment journalists cant get anything right, even though our industry is not classified, though blame probably goes to dipshit agent leaks. No matter. Story development going well.

698. boborci - December 17, 2013

695. I keep odd hours;)

699. crazydaystrom - December 17, 2013

693. boborci

Bob I’ve always thought it was no coincidence Bush was in Florida, safe in his brother’s state, when we were attacked. I’ll always believe he knew something was probably going to happen that day. But I can’t believe he knew exactly what was going to happen.

I think the chances of our EVER knowing EXACTLY what happened are so remote as to be impossible. And I guess I’m a sheep. Or better, I’d be an ‘ant’ under the ‘boot’ of THE MAN, not worth THEM ever being bothered with or worried about me. YOU on the other hand should consider treading lightly, Bob. There’s truth and there’s “TRUTH”. There’s justice and there’s “JUSTICE”. And there’s the American Way and there’s “THE AMERICAN WAY”! Tread lightly.

“Get them to ask the wrong questions and you don’t have to worry about the answers.”
Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow

That’s long been an effective tactic.

“Like utopia the actual future plus the actual past exist only in the hazy distance where they are no good to anyone.”
DavidMitchell, Cloud Atlas

There’s comfort in hazy distances.

“Most people prefer a comfortable lie to the uncomfortable truth.”
crazydaystrom

Yeah. I’m a sheep, not a ram.

700. boborci - December 17, 2013

699. very interesting and articulate and caring post.

But your conclusion is wrong —

— You are a ram. And all you have to do to be a ram is express what you just expressed on this site to anyone who will listen. Simply opining honestly is a ram’s work.

They never anticpated the internet;)

701. crazydaystrom - December 17, 2013

700. boborci
699. very interesting and articulate and caring post.

Thanks

702. boborci - December 17, 2013

but should I really tread lightly? Gonna die someday anyway. why not die in a fight?

703. crazydaystrom - December 17, 2013

702. boborci
but should I really tread lightly? Gonna die someday anyway. why not die in a fight?

Don’t know if I can rise to the level of nobility that pretty much equalled martyrdom historically. In that way I’m surely a sheep.

But-
“…all you have to do to be a ram is express what you just expressed on this site to anyone who will listen.”

-by that definition I AM a ram. But I’ve so mellowed over the years from what was a rather outspoken “radicalism”. I find it less appetizing and inviting to “take a stand”. Not particularly proud of this consolation in hazy distances with comfortable lies, though. baaa

704. SkiesSeven - December 17, 2013

@boborci

I wouldn’t trust any ‘leaked’ document that comes from the CIA. The New York Post is not to be trusted either. The whole report sounds like misdirection. It seems to absolve the Israelis, and the Bush Administration, and the CIA, while laying all the blame on the Saudi’s.

705. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

704. SkiesSeven – December 17, 2013

My first reaction as well; the CIA gets NO goodwill benefits of the doubt from me. My default assumption about the CIA is that they only release that which creates the impression they are trying to craft, whether it is true or not.

The CIA’s history of manipulating public opinion through an even more easily manipulated media is well known.

706. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

696. ObsessiveStarTrekFan – December 17, 2013

“I’m just an ordinary trekkie with no talents in the creative arts, so I won’t presume to offer a meaningful critique. I can only say what I personally liked or disliked about it.”

Hey, how it genuinely impacted you is meaningful feedback to me.

“I’m also not sure I buy the softer side to the Klingon soldiers with the alien children, but what do I know – it is the nature of conflict to objectify the ‘other’ as being less than we are. On the other hand, I could well imagine the Earthies as a sub-culture.”

Aah, but remember the beginning? Those same two Klingons imploded that building that killed the women and children trying to escape. So they aren’t black or white. They can be brutal AND compassionate. Hard for me to see how any successful race can be a society but have no compassion at all. They’d never get to the stars. They’d eat each other alive.

Again, thanks for reading and taking the time to say something about it. And I’m glad you thought the whole “Earthies” thing worked.

707. Ahmed - December 17, 2013

690. MJ – December 16, 2013

“And similarly, I really am sick of the Klingons and Romulans as well.
I’d like the next movie to go to “strange new worlds” and frankly, it I don’t see earth for the next couple of movies, I will be a happy guy.”

Well said, MJ.

The 3rd movie should set be as far away as possible from Earth & our solar system. No Klingons or Romulans please, show us new & interesting alien race.

708. Ahmed - December 17, 2013

@ 697. boborci – December 17, 2013

“like their energy and skill.”

Sound good. Are they familiar with Star Trek or science fiction in general ?

“Rumors of Kurtzman’s lack of involvement are premature. amazing that entertainment journalists cant get anything right, even though our industry is not classified, though blame probably goes to dipshit agent leaks.”

lol, you better call Ray Donovan to fix the “dipshit agent leaks.” :)

“No matter. Story development going well.”

Good news, keep it up guys & please surprise us.

709. Michael Hall - December 17, 2013

““And similarly, I really am sick of the Klingons and Romulans as well.”

For once we actually agree on something. Frankly, I was sick of them six films or so ago.

A polite entreaty to Viacom and Mr. Orci from a paying customer (yes, I saw STID twice in the theater and even bought a DVD–there were things I actually did like about it, though overall it’s not my cup of tea): next time, could we actually get a little science fiction with our science fiction? Pretty please?

710. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

This is funny as hell, but before the subject of the media fades, Conan really does us a service by showing us how the news networks all follow the same script. Literally.

Keep this in mind when they start talking about any issue DC is trying to push.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM8L7bdwVaA

711. Ahmed - December 17, 2013

@ 710. dmduncan – December 17, 2013

“This is funny as hell, but before the subject of the media fades, Conan really does us a service by showing us how the news networks all follow the same script. Literally.”

oh man, this is really insane. It is like they are all getting same script from an overlord who direct the news!

Big Brother is not just watching you, he is telling you what to watch !

Thanks DM for the link.

712. TUP - December 17, 2013

I havent any of this thread. So apologize in advance.

Subject of Kilingons (et al): While some of us as diehard Trek fans might be begging for a “new” alien race, keep in mind that we’re the easy sell. We’ll watch the movie even if it sucks. The casual Trek fans and the casual movie-goers are likely far more interested when they see/hear Klingons are in the movie.

The discussion of compassionate Klingons is interesting. TNG did a lot to soften them but to also give them some depth. I cant remember which genius it was that postulated any alien race we encounter in space (or visiting Earth) is likely to be mostly friendly as a war-like race would have destroyed itself before intersteller travel.

Trek canon tells us that the initial issue between Earth and the Klingons was not that they just wanted to fight with everyone, but a First Contact gone wrong. Enterprise completely ignored this ofcourse.

713. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

711. Ahmed – December 17, 2013

Haha. You liked that? There’s more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZElSajQdOo

Just go to YouTube and search Conan Media Reacts To…

There’s a plenty!

714. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

What’s really interesting there is that DIFFERENT networks are all parroting the same scripted lines.

715. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

No, no, no, the information you get is not controlled by any central source.

What makes you think that? You a conspiracy crackpot or something?

It’s all just journalists independently investigating and coming to the same conclusions.

716. Hillary - December 17, 2013

dmduncan – December 16, 2013

You’re wrong, not a bit.
The Joker Joly is the Khan’s character in the film.
If you like… Chumberbatch.

Maybe the fans do not like it, but the layman does.
They are the main market.

717. MJ - December 17, 2013

Bob, just concentrate on the script. Just say no to conspiracy nut job and Star Wars planking this time — keep your eye on the prize, and I think last time this ancillary unproductive stuff caused you to slightly lose your way, my friend.

718. Curious Cadet - December 17, 2013

@708. Ahmed –
“Rumors of Kurtzman’s lack of involvement are premature”

Surprised no one else has picked up on this besides you.

So ST09 was written by Orci & Kurtzman. STID was Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof. And now ST16(?) will be Orci, Kurtzman, Payne, and McKay. We’re now up to four writers!

Anybody else sense a pattern here? More writers does not seem to equate with a better film. What’s going on here?

719. MJ - December 17, 2013

Bob, I agree with Curious Cadet. Let’s just keep it to you, Payne and McKay this time please. More focused — less of a committee — LESSON LEARNED from STID.

720. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

717. Curious Cadet – December 17, 2013

Oh who knows? What is the problem Payne and McKay were brought in to solve? All I know is it will probably show up in the movie if they (P&M) weren’t a realistic solution to whatever their problem is.

721. MJ - December 17, 2013

Well, we are all so thankful that you are here to enlighten all to the real truth of what is going. Thank you, Spock’s Brain…whoops…err, I mean “SkiesSeven”

LOL :-))

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

704. SkiesSeven – December 17, 2013
@boborci

I wouldn’t trust any ‘leaked’ document that comes from the CIA. The New York Post is not to be trusted either. The whole report sounds like misdirection. It seems to absolve the Israelis, and the Bush Administration, and the CIA, while laying all the blame on the Saudi’s.

722. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

I just wish I could read something of what these guys actually wrote instead of reviews from what others say of them. But things like this (regarding Goliath) make me concerned:

***

Does it work?

Indeed, it does. The pacing is that of a chase movie, and the set-pieces seem like they could belong in a Jerry Bruckheimer movie. It’s a fun read. The theme is pretty epic, familiar but universal, but what makes it shine is the execution. For someone who has read the bible, it was fun to see the writers create a sort of Old Testament primer.

My only gripe is that it lays the Joseph Campbell on pretty heavy. I mean, as a scriptreader and writer, I prefer it when this stuff is more subtle. If it’s possible for formulas to be on the nose, then stories that use prophecy as a major plot device are a prime example. We’ve seen it a thousand times. A literal prophecy declaring that some ordinary person is going to become a hero and save the world?

C’mon! It’s familiar, which is good, but sometimes there’s too familiar! When someone in the general audience can think, “Oh, like in The Matrix?” Then you’re in too familiar territory.

And, unfortunately, all of the Order of the White Stone stuff falls in this realm. It works, but as a reader, I’ve seen it one billion times. I see something like that and I see the writers revealing the gears turning in their heads. They reveal their secrets, methods and reference material whenever that happens.

Luckily, I got thirty-three pages into the script before that happened, and it was the only part that felt like a miscalculation. Why not go for something more fresh?

***

That review snippet is from:

http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2010/09/goliath.html

723. Anthony Thompson - December 17, 2013

716. MJ – – The Grand Return !!!

You’re singing a different tune about STID since last time I checked this board. A few months ago you were positively effusive about it. Now you’re talking about Bob “losing his way”. What gives?

724. Ahmed - December 17, 2013

@ 717. Curious Cadet – December 17, 2013

“@708. Ahmed –
“Rumors of Kurtzman’s lack of involvement are premature”

Surprised no one else has picked up on this besides you.”

Actually Bob is the one who said that at # 697. , I just quoting him in my comment.

725. Ahmed - December 17, 2013

@ 717. Curious Cadet – December 17, 2013

“And now ST16(?) will be Orci, Kurtzman, Payne, and McKay. We’re now up to four writers!

Anybody else sense a pattern here? More writers does not seem to equate with a better film. What’s going on here?”

Agreed, a movie by a committee usually never turn out well. Just lets Bob & the new two guys write it, don’t add more writers.

Or better, replace the new guys & get Ron Moore to work with Bob.

726. Ahmed - December 17, 2013

@713. dmduncan

Thanks,

727. crazydaystrom - December 17, 2013

725. Ahmed

While I basically agree, as often as not, maybe more often than not, there’re two or more writers on a script. Even when only one writer is credited.

I too would love for Ron Moore to be involved. And/or Manny Coto.

728. Keachick - December 17, 2013

Hi there – I am not gone for good….oh dear – I can hear some of you say.

It is summer here now and the temperatures have been rather high. The pohutukawa trees and manuka/kanuka tree/shrubs are in bloom. This means that my in-laws have a “white Christmas” in the back yard because of the manuka clusters of tiny white flowers covering the entire tree. There can be whole hillsides that look like they have had a light dusting of snow as this time of the year – round Christmas time. Very impressive!

This screen and hard drive has been unplugged and buried under drop cloths while our lounge room has undergone a much needed repaint. We now have *pretty* walls and ceiling. Our hallway is undergoing similar right now…after Christmas it will be the bedrooms’ turn…’tis all go round these parts and not before time.

I see that the journos seemed to have got it wrong about Alex Kurtzman not working on the next Star Trek script with Bob Orci. I thought it seemed odd that Alex would not be part of the writing team. Anyway, I am pleased that K/O are still doing their thing as writing partners.

I am happy to read that Bob Orci and his writing team are making headway with the story. This is good to hear for sure.

I am being serious when I say that “my captain” has had enough torture. I did ask you to take care of James Kirk, Bob Orci. Having him kicked, beaten and tortured, as he has been (in the movies and comics) is now how I understand to “take care of” to mean. In spite of what other people may think, it IS OK to give this character the opportunity to love and be loved – emotionally and physically. I know I must sound like a broken record but being charitable towards a character can and does constitute good, honourable, skilful writing.

Anyway, I must be away. I have to go pick up my daughter from school. It is her last day. Her next school day does not start until February 2014. ‘t’d be the NZ summer holidays!!!

Only seven days till Christmas Day. I believe that Hanuka is celebrated at this time of the year as well but I am not sure of the exact dates. So – to all, happy celebrations and heaps of happy returns.

729. Keachick - December 17, 2013

…sigh…edit – “…and comics) is now how…” should read “…and comics) is NOT how…”

730. Phil - December 17, 2013

Yeah, multiple writers isn’t that uncommon. Nothing to get worked up over…

731. crazydaystrom - December 17, 2013

728. Keachick

I WAS wondering about you. Good to see you’re back Keachick. I DO believe I missed you.
:-)

732. Ahmed - December 17, 2013

@728. Keachick

Welcome back :)

btw, Avatar sequels will start shooting in NZ next year, you may get a chance to meet Neytiri herself :)

733. SkiesSeven - December 17, 2013

@MJ

“Well, we are all so thankful that you are here to enlighten all to the real truth of what is going. Thank you, Spock’s Brain…whoops…err, I mean “SkiesSeven”…”

——-

You will notice my comment was addressed to Bob Orci. But since you’re so interested in being enlightened, I might as well point out how silly you come off. If you seriously think me and other members are all the same people then you are living in a bubble where you have to marginalize others into neat little categories to keep in your comfy cozy zone.

734. MJ - December 17, 2013

I think I have been pretty consistent. It was a good movie, that does not deserve some of the over-the-top hate we have seen from many here. That being said, STID was not as good at Trek 2009, and there are a number of things that could have been improved about it.

You will recall that it was me that provided last summer a detailed list of six things that they should do differently in the next movie — remember?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
723. Anthony Thompson – December 17, 2013
716. MJ – – The Grand Return !!!

You’re singing a different tune about STID since last time I checked this board. A few months ago you were positively effusive about it. Now you’re talking about Bob “losing his way”. What gives?

735. MJ - December 17, 2013

@733. You just proved my suspicous of who you are with your response, TrekMadeMeWonder….err, I mean SkiesSeven…whoops, there I go again…I’m sorry, I mean Spock’s Brain. LOL

736. I am not Herbert - December 17, 2013

693. boborci: “I am so shocked to read something so hateful to America.”

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/an-act-of-war-cia-leak-gives-incontrovertible-evidence-that-911-was-state-sponsored_12162013

boborci: Please be specific? WHAT is so shockingly hateful to America?

the article? our gov’t lying to us? 9/11 is false flag? Bush-Saudi connection? CIA creating false flags? just stirring it up?? what??

737. MJ - December 17, 2013

Gorgan is back — “I am not Herbert” is actually Gorgan from “And the Children Shall Lead.”

Hey Gorgan (Herbert), here is your song, dude — enjoy!

Hi, hi fire and snow
Call the angel
We will go
Far away, for to see
Friendly angel, come to me

738. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 17, 2013

717. MJ – December 17, 2013

Bob, just concentrate on the script. Just say no to conspiracy nut job

MJ. I am responding to your post above because it’s on this public board.
Basically I am wondering why you are saying STiD was conspiracy inspired.
And judging by your post in @735 you are seeking my comment.

So questions are warranted.

Are you admitting that there was some hidden truth not revealed in recent events in real life? That there was some kind of conspiracy behind 911?

And hey, since your still being kinda a dikish about it, did you ever watch that video I posted about, yet? I only wanted your informed and logical viewpoint.
You too Spock’s Brain and SkiesSeven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HlUmmPBoLg

Now, if only someone with real 3D visual FX knowledge would step up and examine this video’s claims, then we would really be getting somewhere.

Perhaps, Dennis Bailey?

739. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 17, 2013

736. I am not Herbert

I think he’s being sarcastic. Again.

Boborci, your comments are welcome to my post to MJ, above.

740. Marja - December 17, 2013

691 duncan, I echo MJ’s “this would be a damn good novel.” I think you should write to agents and ask them to represent your story for Pocket Books.

Oh, shoot, I just remembered NO ONE IS PUBLISHING ANY ALTVERSE TREK BOOKS why the hell not???

741. Marja - December 17, 2013

693 bob orci, I guess your last sentence was “Best part? Still a cover story. Phase 2″ …

So let me guess, ST3: Klingons as the state who sponsored the terrorists? Oh how convoluted.

Rats.

742. Marja - December 17, 2013

705 duncan, YEP. CIA probably has reasons of its own for “leaking” and manipulating US public opinion. How many citizens even follow the news instead of watching “Honey BooBoo”…?

And yet … and yet. I would breathe so much easier if most provisions of the “Patriot” Act were voted out of law by Congress.

743. Marja - December 17, 2013

707 Ahmed, I second that motion.

OH YEAH AND NO BORG, EITHER.

please.

744. Marja - December 17, 2013

710 duncan, The news media have been an echo chamber for decades, reporting sensation over substance. Just look at how fast US Citizens bought “Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.”

745. Marja - December 17, 2013

691 duncan, of course you’d have to do some rewrites so it fits in “after” or between ST09 and STID … but I think the KM “cheat” plot would still work, along with Kulkukan and the Andorian Queen. As Obssessive pointed out, the Queen, with “Reverend Mother” “witches” does remind one of the Bene Gesserit in “Dune.”

O I WISH THEY WOULD PUBLISH ALT-TREK NOVELS [after "Starfleet Academy" series that is. A couple of those are pretty good.]

746. Hugh Hoyland - December 17, 2013

dmduncan

Okay here is some more of my thoughts on STACSOS
8. “THE CONSCIENCE OF THE KING.”
IMO this shows a man torn, classic story. I see that Kulkukan is searching for knowledge, this to comes from the classics as well. Theres more to this scene than meets the eye.
9. BONES
IMO somewhat similar to what we see in 8. Bones is not sure of his “leader”, at least it seems of his leaders motives. But realizes Kirk is doing what he knows is right for the Federation.
10. HIGH ROLLERS ON SPACE VEGAS.
A very funny sequence IMO. Works well.
11. “MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE!”
This is the start of the mission,
12. IN THE SPACE BETWEEN THE SHIPS
Obviously suspence with the close encounter.
13. ON THE FLAGSHIP
Re-intro to our “geeky” Klingon Shreeth Klathnoor.

Okay will add more later. To cut to the chase here DM, as I said I like this story. I also love STID (to date my favorite ST movie) But then again I love em all as I love Star Trek. IMO you have done yourself proud with a promising treatment that I hope you’ll eventually script. Who knows where it can go.

747. Hugh Hoyland - December 17, 2013

I will add this opinion DM, I may have to re-read it, but I think Spock suffers a bit in this story ( not literally of course) Just his Character. He’s there, and he does do his “Spockie” thing with the tricorder. It just seems Uhurah really over shadows him in this story. But again I may re-read it to gain more info.

748. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

745. Marja – December 17, 2013

The resemblance is understandable. They are a sisterhood, but they are also very different. But I can’t go into detail about what’s “under the hood” without giving away too much of the story.

749. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

746. Hugh Hoyland – December 17, 2013

10. HIGH ROLLERS ON SPACE VEGAS.
A very funny sequence IMO. Works well.

***

Oh man, I would love to see that sequence onscreen. Done the way I imagine it, it would be an amazing “tour” of an amazing little planet.

Thanks for reading and giving feedback, Hugh. I appreciate it very much.

750. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

747. Hugh Hoyland – December 17, 2013

Suffers? Hmm. In this pass of the treatment I’m aware his role is rather limited; a second rewrite would have added to his role. This version is mainly a blueprint of Kirk’s journey. Admittedly, I do not know how to handle the Spuhura thing, but I’m not sure that constitutes making him suffer.

I did pick up on and expand the Kirk-Uhura dynamic that was present in ST.09, and I think Uhura really has something important to do here. In addition to actually doing more important stuff in my story, she’s the one whose standards Kirk is being measured against. Kirk really has something to prove to her because he knows she’s right about him, and that his “arrival” as a true captain will be reflected in her by how she treats him.

When Kirk enters the bridge after returning with the bad news that his days are numbered, and his entrance is silent because no one says “Captain on the bridge!”, he also hears the debate raging about him, and Uhura’s true opinion of him, which is less than spectacular. She didn’t mean for him to hear it, but it stings, and from that moment on he wants to do something about how his people perceive him.

See, in ACSoS he’s getting hammered in a totally different way than he did in STID. In my story he’s about to lose his job, his crew is shaky about him, there’s a coming war that’s weighing on everyone—but instead of beating him down, the pressures cause him to do his best work. And out of THAT comes the maturity—from the realization that this mission is life or death, and he’s got to be dead-on serious and at the top of his game.

It’s an impossible mission—and that was a conscious historical homage on my part to Mission Impossible, which was Star Trek’s sister series on the Desilu lot.

Personally I think this would have worked up on the big screen. I don’t think anyone would have left the theater in disbelief at the premise, anyway.

751. dmduncan - December 17, 2013

745. Marja – December 17, 2013

691 duncan, of course you’d have to do some rewrites so it fits in “after” or between ST09 and STID

***

At one point I thought if this story had any chance to be made it would have to be the latter of what you suggest.

So I coined the term “betweequel.” :-)

752. boborci - December 17, 2013

736

i am kidding by using the voice of those who ridicule anyone who questions official story. Incidentally, I don’t buy this “leak” either.

753. Marja - December 18, 2013

duncan, I couldn’t help myself, I read to the end last night. Great. I enjoyed the Klingon Earthgeeks [I could see James Franco as the Klingon guy too][or Seth Rogan - no wait! Seth Rogen for Harry Mudd! Perfect!] … the Wrigley’s expedition was fun [I imagine that would cost a mint, but maybe not] and the joke at the end with Scotty made me smile happily.

Couple of things I couldn’t “see” … Keenser hugging Scotty … more likely he’d shake his oyster head and back off … Spock putting his hand on the Earthgeek’s shoulder [I thought the Earthgeek was going to turn out to be a double-crosser and Spock was getting a "read" on him, nope].

Kukulkan and his granddaughter had some lovely scenes. I like the character Kukulkan [sp?]. I see you were shooting for a follow-up. With the strong characters of Kukulkan and the Andorian Queen, you’d have quite a story. It would be interesting to see what other “magic” Kukulkan comes up with for the follow-on story.

There are a few things I question, the “memory stimulant” McCoy gives Mudd [oh for McCoy and that magic potion when I'm doing my CRS* thing] – twice. Why not start off with Harry playing coy, and then getting smarter when he realizes he’ll be thrown on the “mercy” of the Klingons [echo of the tribbles at end of TOS's Trouble with Tribbles - Harry gets beamed aboard a Klingon vessel BWAHahahahaha].

I very much liked Uhura’s role in this story. I enjoyed the bit when she’s on the Bridge communicating with Comms Engineering down there in the basement ;-) and fine-tuning her listening. I enjoyed the challenges and the by-play between her and Kirk, even the joke about Kirk’s proximity to Uhura in the virus-planting scene. And you had her be a superior marksman, I liked that. I blanched when I saw the chapter heading “Uhura and Kirk together at last!” but was relieved and touched by their dialogue. That Uhura offers him her first name is such a mark of friendship and trust, a nice finish to their journey in the movie.

Spock needs more to do in the story, but I see you’ve said you sketched it out as more of a Kirk-corrective at this stage. If you go back to the story [and I hope you will]… put Spock in The Chair briefly, have him head up a team with Uhura and Sulu and Chekov working on some superscience that will save the day, or deflect some Klingons with a marvelous Vulcan Klingon-deterrent, be it extensive dialoguing or misleading them into getting a neck-pinch.

You used Chekov and Sulu all too briefly but I enjoyed what you wrote for them. I think Mudd could have been a last-minute problem for Kirk, you know, Mudd presents just the complication Kirk doesn’t need at just the wrong moment. You mustn’t introduce a chaotic element like Harry Mudd and have him disappear before he can cause total havoc. [Or at least threaten to.]

There are lots more notes I could give, but your draft script made for a most enjoyable read, and I could envision it so clearly from your descriptions. K’plagh!

754. Marja - December 18, 2013

714 Duncan, I do wonder if the local stations were all affiliates to a large network that distributed a script for the newscasts? Remarkably similar, heh-heh, as in identical, and the delivery improved or didn’t through the mouths of the news-babes [male and female]. You can almost tell who are going to be the star newscasters from how well they deliver the line. Feh!

Yes, folks, this is modern newscasting. Murrow and Cronkite must be turning in their graves.

755. Marja - December 18, 2013

MJ, I would almost coin the term “Spock-puppet” for that individual’s various identities, but that would be highly insulting to the character of Spock.

Oh, and by the way, the ‘Friendly Angel’ chant begins with “Hail, hail” …I’ve watched a bit too much Trek, can you tell?
——————————————————–

KEACHICK!!! Welcome back girl. Let’s hope that now Mr Orci and Co. are working on the script, they can use a little less violence in this one. Though I think, by this 3rd movie, perhaps they’ll let Kirk win a fight and prevent some others, now that [in this upcoming film] he’s [presumably, I hope so] achieving his true maturity as a leader.

Less violence! More science!

756. SkiesSeven - December 18, 2013

@boborci

Thanks for clarifying.

757. Hillary - December 18, 2013

Ahmed !
I do not understand you. Why are you doing this ? You’re unbelievable. Violent, and you can not admit anything.
The full appearances on this website:
You’re like a vital element and whose mission in life is how bad the ST ID.
As having nothing better to do!
You haven’t got dog or cat or a girlfriend? Or is there , but they don’t like you? Because you can not stop to looking for ST ID mistakes.
You’re looks like, sitting in front of a computer all day, little pimply overweight genius?
Nothing better to do ?
I know what your problem is!
There are two things you do not to know:
1.
Basic concepts and rules you are not aware of.
If you understand it, you should know that a television series can be resolved to lot of new species and planets have to discover.
But the movie genre is different. Other should go to the movies. The movies must be conflict and spectacle.
You’re right that there should be a new species and the planet. But! If you understand it, you knew it was not until the time. About a third episode will be timely.
And so I go over to the other your ignorance :
2.
You think, there is only Trekkies on the world, and you think the all world know, what the Star Trek is?
I would tell you that you are wrong ! If I really want to simplify it, people can be divided into three groups. (A) One third is perhaps Star Trek fan, (B) one third , who has heard about something Star Trek, sometimes in the past 20 to 50 years, met with a part in the cinema or on TV. But I did not care too much.
And in the third group ( C ), who never intersted about the film.

So believe me. The conservative fans are not the main market !
The market is the majority, whos know nothing or less about the Star Trek.
For example, I’m somewhere between B and C. I have seen several series, a couple of movies … but not interested about the film.
Actually, did not like the sci-fi …never!

What happened when I saw the ST09, and the STID? I realized that a sci -fi can be good , and everyone can enjoy. And specifically, I’m a fan of the reborn ST.
Because the first part of the interest aroused. It was enjoyable , spectacular, humorous. My opinion has changed. The second part (ID) of this has only strengthened .
What’s the point?
First to build the story is not a Star Trek fan to introduce the basic concepts. And after this comes more and more new planet or species. But no sooner !
Here again remind you that Star Trek fans are not the majority.
The simply movies and film fans are the majority !
So the market decide , and the creators perfectly chosen !

I knowm this is in my line. I have advertising company, I am also graphics, writer and cameraman. Generating complete marketing for companies.
I can tell you, in this case, the fans and non- fans are together is the market. Who buy the product. The film is an product.
To put it harshly. But it’s the truth .

So somewhere, I do not understand the main news about the film. Okay, of course, deal with the fans , but you should ask a simple people like me, what we think? I would say read a lot of forum, peoples crazy about the film!
Media do not speak about them in the news ! Why not ?
Because the average peoples do not criticize , reasoned within, just enjoy ! This is not interested in the media. Why not ? Because human nature is such that the conflicts are interested on the news.

So I told dear JJ. and Boborci and others! The road is good! Just be careful not to let any bad decisions bring so that too much attention was paid to old-style words of Star Trek fans!

This is dangerous ! Because I told you that, the old TV parts and movies are :cute , occasionally interesting, but that’s it! Weak and silly!
Look Khan .
I am one of those people who did not know anything about Khan , I have not seen the wrath of Khan either. I liked the ID , it was very thought-provoking.
Not influenced by anything !
After that, I began to take note of these criticisms. Racial issues , Montalban , Chumberbatch, lingerine of Carol Marcus … etc. I said what’s the problem? First I checked the wrath of Khan. I had to cry, it was funny, and so bad!
Cheesy , dull , the story is weak. corresponding to the 80’s. I admit .
After that, I get understand the shock caused by the Khan ! But the decision was correct Creators had to change the character. Modernized !
So, if someone does not know about the profession, unable to think globally. Like Ahmed! You have an opinion! Ok. But do not overdo it! Because you do have to be very, very boring!
Only opinion, but with limits. Because you do not understand it, You are non-professional. This is JJ , Paramount …etc. but not you.
With good intentions
(sorry , I’m not perfect English yet)

758. dmduncan - December 18, 2013

753. Marja – December 18, 2013

Couple of things I couldn’t “see” … Keenser hugging Scotty … more likely he’d shake his oyster head and back off … Spock putting his hand on the Earthgeek’s shoulder [I thought the Earthgeek was going to turn out to be a double-crosser and Spock was getting a "read" on him, nope].

***

Re: Keenser. Really? You can’t? Keenser hugs Scotty, not the other way around. I can totally see Keenser doing that when Scotty is bent over him so close trying to revive him, and Scotty peeling him off, incensed at the affection.

Re: Spock. See, in ST.09 we see Spock being bullied. That’s a hard part of his experience growing up, so he understands how it feels. So when he sees the same thing happening to Shreeth, I thought it would be a subtle but cool move that points back to his own experience growing up on Vulcan that says to Shreeth, “I understand.” So that gesture felt right to me, maybe because it builds on what we saw in ST.09, where he actually gets violent as a child in response to bullies, and because the gesture tells us Spock hasn’t forgotten what he went through. Spock may not be the best guy to go to for emotional support on just about anything, but being BULLIED is one thing he knows about.

“There are a few things I question, the ‘memory stimulant’ McCoy gives Mudd [oh for McCoy and that magic potion when I'm doing my CRS* thing] – twice.”

Why? I liked the gag and it’s science fiction. Things like that will actually probably happen in the future. Drugs that will speed up mental functioning, drugs that will help you recover memory—in fact, they are already working on something with more sinister applications, i.e., drugs that WIPE memories.

And all of that is in McCoy’s realm of expertise—adjusting the tricorders to brainscan for a particular skill, using drugs to deprive Mudd of excuses. Using drugs to help Mudd think faster. So McCoy helps the mission by being a doctor here. If McCoy hadn’t been brought along on the mission where he unexpectedly helps Mudd work faster, it’s more likely it could have failed.

“And you had her be a superior marksman, I liked that.”

That’s from my experience on the rifle range. I know how well women can shoot.

“I blanched when I saw the chapter heading ‘Uhura and Kirk together at last!’ but was relieved and touched by their dialogue.”

Ha! “Blanching” is what I hoped for with the title of that section. But you see I meant it in a different way, so I was playing with my readers.

“You mustn’t introduce a chaotic element like Harry Mudd and have him disappear before he can cause total havoc. [Or at least threaten to.]”

You may have a point!

Question: What did you think about the ending? Not the after credits Kulkukan stuff, but Kirk on the edge of his seat stuff? I was hoping to leave the audience with a smile by doing that little piece of mischief.

759. Michael Hall - December 18, 2013

“Oh, and by the way, the ‘Friendly Angel’ chant begins with “Hail, hail” …I’ve watched a bit too much Trek, can you tell?”

Well, if you’ve seen “And the Children Shall Lead” you’ve definitely watched one Star Trek episode too many. :-)

760. dmduncan - December 18, 2013

757. Hillary – December 18, 2013

After that, I get understand the shock caused by the Khan ! But the decision was correct Creators had to change the character. Modernized !

***

Modernizing the character doesn’t mean changing his race, unless you are planning for the future to be populated only by white folk.

And I do understand what you are saying about them making a movie for general audiences; that IS who you have to target to make these movies a financial success; there just aren’t enough Star Trek fans out there going 5 and 6 times to support the making of these kinds of movies.

But at least regarding Khan casting, it didn’t have to be a choice of which audience to respect. They could have respected both. If general audiences knew nothing about Khan, how could it have been less modern for them to see an actor cast who fits the historical intent of the character that only fans knew?

The “modern” thing to do would have been to disregard the archaic casting culture of the 1960’s and put an ACTUAL Punjabi actor in the role, or someone close enough that an actual Punjabi would be convinced by the character.

That’s my definition of the modern thing to do in a franchise that’s 50 years old.

761. dmduncan - December 18, 2013

And, you know, maybe it’s really because the “archaic casting culture of the 1960’s” is not archaic in Hollywood. Hollywood is behind the times. Elsewhere—in publishing for instance—decentralization created by the internet is breaking up the control centers where a select few get to decide what everyone else reads and hears, while Hollywood with its continuous push for some type of SOPA, continues to try and hold on to the power of the bottleneck, with all the whimsicality that comes with a top-down pyramidal power structure.

762. dmduncan - December 18, 2013

Marja—a clarification: When I say “Why? I liked the gag and it’s science fiction.” I am not asking YOU why you feel that, I am explaining why I did that.

763. Ahmed - December 18, 2013

@757. Hillary

Thanks for your long rant. I’m glad that you are enjoying the new Trek “product”, you are a very good customer!

764. Michael Hall - December 18, 2013

“The “modern” thing to do would have been to disregard the archaic casting culture of the 1960′s and put an ACTUAL Punjabi actor in the role, or someone close enough that an actual Punjabi would be convinced by the character.

That’s my definition of the modern thing to do in a franchise that’s 50 years old.”

Gods, yes. After Cumberbatch’s casting was announced I just asssumed as a matter of course that such a change to what had become a major figure in this mythos would accounted for, somehow. Part of that respect for fans and historical continuity we kept hearing about. No such luck.

765. Michael Hall - December 18, 2013

“The “modern” thing to do would have been to disregard the archaic casting culture of the 1960′s and put an ACTUAL Punjabi actor in the role, or someone close enough that an actual Punjabi would be convinced by the character.

Indeed. It’s also what I would have hoped for and even expected from J.J. Abrams, in spite of my disappointment with the 2009 film.

766. Who cares - December 18, 2013

Why do people think that casting Cumberbatch as Khan was “changing Khan’s race”? First off I happen to know for a fact that there are native Punjabi Sihks out there who have the same skin tones as Cumberbatch, and speak with just as much of a British accent, especially since the British ruled India for over 200 years. Just like there are Native Americans who have lighter skin than Cumberbatch and speak with a thick Texas twang. Secondly saying they changed his race is just stupid, because there is only one race HUMAN.

I’ll be back around when “Dexter” and the rest of the sock puppet brigade have wandered back to their troll holes again.

767. Disinvited - December 18, 2013

#766. Who cares – December 18, 2013

“…there is only one race HUMAN. ” – Who cares

Indeed, and according to the current uproar in anthropology, that one race may stretch all the way back to include those who were thought to be another “real” science-based race delineation as well: Neanderthals.

768. dswynne - December 18, 2013

@boborci: There is a phrase that you guys wrote for Khan, when the character was first captured by Kirk and company, after the firefight on Q’onos:

“How can you break bones when you are afraid to break the rules?”

That line stuck with me, so much so that it might have changed much of my out look in life in general, and the direction that I feel that my own life has taken of late. I’ve translated that statement to mean that in order to take risks, to take chances, I have to be “unconventional” in my approach to a task or problem. In fact, that’s why, as a start, I got on a major weight loss “program” that, so far, since October 29th, has been successful. I still have some months to go before I get to where I need to be, but, in a way, I have you guys to thank for setting me on the right path.

So, regardless of what the other detractors might say about you and Bad Robot, I thank you guys for STiD, particularly the dialogue between the principle characters. For now, take care, and good luck on your endeavors (especially on the next nuTrek script).

Namaste!

769. dswynne - December 18, 2013

@757 (Hillary): Don’t worry about not having a command of the English language. There are many so-called “English” speakers who really don’t have command of the English language, and that’s because the education establishment is more concerned about social engineering than teaching.

770. Michael Hall - December 18, 2013

“Dexter,” moron, was portrayed by the very talented actor Michael C. Hall. My middle initial is “J”. So you needn’t be confused, we’re not the same person, and (just for the record) since I’m about a decade older than he is the name properly belonged to me first.

As to Khan’s background: yes, I’m aware that there has been extant a class of lighter-skinned people in India for many thousands of years. But it’s very unlikely that one would be as snow-white as Master Cumberbatch–and even if he were, explain this to me, O Einstein: why would a 23rd Century historian, looking down at that body in cryonic suspension, make the association with a Sikh from Northern India?

771. K-7 - December 18, 2013

Michael,

Who Cares is a person who also goes by TrekMadeMeWonder, Spocks Bangs, Spocks Brain and Skies Seven, and undoubtedly many more identities here.

One of his primary calling cards is that he tries preemptively to call you, me and others he doesn’t like as sock-puppets — he actually believes that by going on the offensive out of the gate and accusing us legitimate posters of having multiple identities, that it will distract us all from the true puppetmaster here — him!

772. Dave H - December 18, 2013

@K-7

I agree with your suspicions. That “collective” always includes remarks about a bunch of us being sock-puppets. I think you are right — it’s an “in your fact” tactic of his to cover up his collection of sock-puppets.

I’ll say this to everyone here. Watch carefully over the next several weeks and notice which posters here are always accusing others of sock-puppeting. Those posters are not to be trusted, as I think they are the only “clone warriors” here.

As my kid sister used to say:

Thou who smelt it, dealt it.

773. K-7 - December 18, 2013

Dave,

I love your terminology here for these troolls. Building on what you have said, I hereby anoint Spock’s Bangs (aka Who Cares, TrekMadeMeWonder, Spocks Brain, Skies Seven, et. al.) as the “Thou that Dealt it, Smelt it Collective.”

LOL

774. Red Dead Ryan - December 18, 2013

K-7, Dave H.

I agree with your apt analogies. TrekMadeMeWonder is the only puppetmaster here — and his attempt to deflect attention from himself by accusing others here of sockpuppeteering reminds me a lot of schoolyard bullies who start fights with others, but then play the “victim card” after everyone else wises up to their tactics and they start losing credibility.

775. Marja - December 18, 2013

758 duncan, “Re: Keenser. Really? You can’t? Keenser hugs Scotty, not the other way around. I can totally see Keenser doing that when Scotty is bent over him so close trying to revive him, and Scotty peeling him off, incensed at the affection.” Ha – I could see it if Keenser was messin’ … twitting Scotty. Now that would be funny ;-) … and more an action of “equal” male friends in the workplace. Then later, Scotty asks in indignation, “Why did you hug me?” Keenser could say, “You KISSED me.” Scotty: “I was saving your life with CPR!” Keenser:[still funnin'] “I was thanking you.” hee-hee! [Though Keenser pretty much speaks one-word sentences.]

Man I wish I had McCoy’s potion for when I have CRS [can't remember sh*t]

776. DiscoSpock - December 19, 2013

Re: Who Cares

Great name, because what you usually have to say here is not memorable and is often condescending to others. So yea, “who cares” what you have to say here? I certainly don’t. Go away…

777. Spock's Bangs - December 19, 2013

#771 ” he actually believes that by going on the offensive out of the gate and accusing us legitimate posters ..”

This, from one of puppeteer MJ’s cast of colorful creations! Legitimate?? HA! Best laugh of the day!!

FACT!

778. Phil - December 19, 2013

@766. Well, because it did?? If the best defense you make is the argument of exception, let me illustrate how ridiculous that is, if suggesting there is only one race – human:
– Oskar Schindler was a Nazi. Because he demonstrated compassion, therefore Nazi’s were compassionate.
– Belonging to the human race is the sole criteria for casting decisions. Therefore, it should have been completely acceptable if they has cast a female Asian to play Khan….

Your position completely ignores context. Racism was still fairly common in casting practices in the 60’s, so putting RM in brownface and labeling him something ‘exotic’ served the purposes of the story. Fast forward 4 decades, and these practices are now relics. It’s open for debate because this version of Trek is very male-Caucasian heavy, and to suggest that villain was also whitewashed for no reason other then political expediency suggests that there were other problems with the production that have yet to be revealed..officially. Hence, the speculation. Orci’s defense of this also rings hollow, as they had no issues creating Transformer robot twins that pandered to every racial stereotype of African Americans in ROTF.

That’s the problem with spinning stories – if you are not consistent with your explanations, then anything you try to explain away will lack candor and be viewed with suspicion. For whatever reason, Orci does not like having the ‘warts and all” conversations about his creative decisions.

779. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 19, 2013

Sorry. Was not aware I was a troll here. Guess I will take another couple months off.

DM perhaps I will have a review for your ST story then. I did download your PDF and I will read it soon. It looks promising and quite extensive.

780. boborci - December 19, 2013

778 I had nothing to do with characterizations of robots. Alex and I argued againts them vociferously.
It’s the reason we passed on doing sequel. You have no idea what you are talking about,

768. Thanks and good luck!

781. Hugh Hoyland - December 19, 2013

Hey Bob.

Have any progress reports that you can share on the new story/script?

782. Hugh Hoyland - December 19, 2013

dmduncan

“Suffers? Hmm. In this pass of the treatment I’m aware his role is rather limited; a second rewrite would have added to his role. This version is mainly a blueprint of Kirk’s journey. Admittedly, I do not know how to handle the Spuhura thing, but I’m not sure that constitutes making him suffer.”

Yes, maybe I shouldnt have used the word “suffer”. And I see what you are doing with the S/U arc. More later.

783. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

Zachary Quinto interview:

==========================
Collider: Since the next Star Trek movie won’t be going into production for awhile, what’s up next for you, as a producer and an actor?

QUINTO: I’m choosing from projects now. I’ve been doing a play on Broadway for the past four months, and I have two months to go, so I’m now starting to figure out what I’m going to do after that. So, I’m reading a lot of scripts and making a lot of decisions right now. We have a bunch of projects in line for our production company, some of which involve me being an actor and some of which don’t.

Collider: Is Star Trek such a well-oiled machine now that you guys know what you’re doing, regardless of who’s at the helm of the next film?

QUINTO: We are all going to come back to the third movie, knowing exactly what we want to do with our characters, and hope that the person who’s at the helm is supportive of that and collaborative. I’m sure they will be.

http://collider.com/zachary-quinto-banshee-chapter-interview/

784. crazydaystrom - December 19, 2013

783. Ahmed

QUINTO: We are all going to come back to the third movie, knowing exactly what we want to do with our characters…

*eyebrow raise*
Potentially cause for concern.
*sigh*
Fingers crossed the next one will be awesome. Or at very least, satisfying.

And in 2016.

And AWESOME dammit!!

785. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

@784. crazydaystrom

“Fingers crossed the next one will be awesome. Or at very least, satisfying.
And in 2016.”

Amen!

786. Curious Cadet - December 19, 2013

@778. Phil,
“this version of Trek is very male-Caucasian heavy, and to suggest that villain was also whitewashed for no reason other then political expediency suggests that there were other problems with the production that have yet to be revealed..”

Noticed that did you?

Perhaps in the 3rd film if Zoe Saldana’s busy schedule doesn’t permit her to be in it, Uhura can go on an undercover mission to an all white planet where she is required to undergo plastic surgery to become white and she can be played by Scarlett Johansson.

And of course, Spock can get his ears bobbed, and his eyebrows curved for the mission as well.

787. Phil - December 19, 2013

@780. Well, that’s a bit self serving. Take the credit for penning an 800MM plus movie, but blame the offensive stuff on Ehren Kruger? Give us a little credit for understanding what a collaborative effort is. Look, most reasonable people understand that when making creative decisions, that some work, and some don’t It’s what you do for a living, and at the end of the day if the overall effort is okay, your audience will give you the benefit of the doubt……unless your continued fallback position is to defend something by attacking those who question you. There is enough analysis of the Transformers and Trek franchises out there, in addition to the observations of everyday fans like us, to be comfortable in saying we DO know what we are talking about. We understand the content, the creative work that goes into it, and how it’s marketed as a product. We may arrive at different conclusions to the outcome of the decision making process, that does not equate to not understanding. There is a tremendous amount of goodwill in the fan community towards your efforts for Trek, lets not squander that commodity, okay?

788. Phil - December 19, 2013

Sorry, but all I’m getting from the Quinto interview is that Trek 13 may occur sometime this decade. The interviewer all but said it’s a back burner project, and Quinto didn’t disagree with him….

789. Michael Hall - December 19, 2013

“- Belonging to the human race is the sole criteria for casting decisions. Therefore, it should have been completely acceptable if they has cast a female Asian to play Khan….”

In a true reboot I would actually have no problem with a female Asian playing Khan, or Kirk for that matter. In his proposal to NBC for a proposed reboot of TOS J. Michael Straczynski made it clear that he considered that sort of thing to be on the table, and more power to him. After the dust settled, fans could have a field day (as they did with the rebooted Battlestar Galactica ) arguing over whether such changes were an improvement on what had gone before or an outrageous betrayal of the original concept. No harm done; either way, it’s just rock & roll anyhow.

But what we were repeatedly told in 2009 was that the Supreme Court held way too much respect for Star Trek, its storied history and its fanbase to simply reset the clock to zero and do away with decades’ worth of storytelling that has established itself to Trekkies as ‘canon.’ So they concocted this whole QM/Alternate universe scenario as a means to do their own thing while claiming not to invalidate what had gone before, throwing old-time fans the not-insignificant consolation prize of Leonard Nimoy’s involvement to tie the two universes together.

For one film, that explanation for all of the changes in everything from tone, character and production design seemed to hold water. But (and quite apart from my own feelings about Trek 2009), I had my doubts about the viability of the whole reboot-that’s-not-a-reboot strategy, doubts that seem to have been borne out by STID. Because there’s no way that Nero’s incursion into the mid-23rd century can logically account for a change to a 20th century character’s ethnicity and backstory, both of which had definitively established in dialogue. Of course, I have no way of knowing whether Benedict Cumberbatch’s Khan was the result of Benecio Del Toro’s opting-out, legitimate storytelling considerations, Cumberbatch’s obvious prowess as an actor, or some combination of the three. But barring Mr. Orci or some other producer deciding to finally address this subject candidly and head-on, I can only come to the conclusion that in opting for a neither-fish-nor-fowl “reimagining” whose rules only managed to hold for one film anyhow–rather than just doing a straightforward reboot–some very talented people would up being too damned clever for their own good.

790. MJ - December 19, 2013

Promise? Pretty please?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

779. TrekMadeMeWonder – December 19, 2013
Sorry. Was not aware I was a troll here. Guess I will take another couple months off.

791. MJ - December 19, 2013

See everyone. The puppetmaster, Spock’s Bangs is going for a preemptive strike here, aggressively saying I have multiple identities.

It’s not working, dude. Your in-my-face let’s call everyone you disagree with her my sock-puppet crap is as lame and false as your integrity and personal honor. Go back where you came from, moron, and take all of your now exposed sock-puppet clone warriors with you.

LOL :-)) You are a complete joke of a person.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
777. Spock’s Bangs – December 19, 2013
#771 ” he actually believes that by going on the offensive out of the gate and accusing us legitimate posters ..”

This, from one of puppeteer MJ’s cast of colorful creations! Legitimate?? HA! Best laugh of the day!!

FACT!

792. MJ - December 19, 2013

Exactly. See my post immediately above.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
771. K-7 – December 18, 2013
Michael,

Who Cares is a person who also goes by TrekMadeMeWonder, Spocks Bangs, Spocks Brain and Skies Seven, and undoubtedly many more identities here.

One of his primary calling cards is that he tries preemptively to call you, me and others he doesn’t like as sock-puppets — he actually believes that by going on the offensive out of the gate and accusing us legitimate posters of having multiple identities, that it will distract us all from the true puppetmaster here — him!

793. Marja - December 19, 2013

Re: the Spock and Uhura “thing” – dmduncan and any further scripts

Nothing much “needs to be done,” just visually/vocally referring to them in one scene as a couple is enough.

A Red Alert waking both of them and they’re up and out of bed scrambling into uniforms – a kiss on the way [15-30 secs screen time];

A mutual “joke” in the turbolift [Uhura jokes, Spock raises the eyebrow] before beginning the day, with a quick kiss, Vulcan-style or Human-style [15-30 secs of screen time];

Drinking tea together on a break, some discussion of this evening’s dinner plans [10-20 secs of screen time]….

More [yes more!] would be welcomed by this Spock and Uhura fan, but it’s the movies, and I “get” that many people are irritated beyond belief by this relationship [To me - and others - it was a delightful addition to the dynamics of the Big Seven]. Many others [and non-Trekkie couples attending the movie on a date] really enjoy it … except for That Scene in STID when the writers had to shoehorn in Uhura’s & Spock’s “death-wish” discussion [from a private setting into an inappropriate venue], no doubt b/c of time concerns [on-screen and/or setting up another shot] and the desire to show passage of time on the way to Kronos.

Plus there is a cast of 7 main characters + villain who all had to be given a “fair share” in that cussed 2-hr time limit. [Why? why can't the movie go 15 minutes longer to give all the characters a little time, and some philosophy/moralizing/sci-fi elements?]

794. Hillary - December 19, 2013

763. Ahmed

No Ahmed, I’m not a customer.
You do not know anything.
But it’s so good.
The most important is that, due to the STID and thanks for the STID…will get ready all-time toughest three-hour episode of Star Trek. ;-) ;-)
When you will watching…you Ahmed… you will get no air! :-P

After that, we expect you will love this site to criticize.
We will laugh at you. :-D :-D
I can not wait…
Have a nice day Ahmed!

795. Phil - December 19, 2013

@789. As opposed to multiple personalities? I kid, of course…

796. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

@792. Hillary

Do you have a mental illness or what ?

797. MJ - December 19, 2013

@794

LOL Yea, my friend, it she was trying to put you in your place, it didn’t exactly turn out that way. :-)

I think that there are 2 to 3 people on this site who have multiple identities, who are really screwing up the discourse for the rest of us.

798. MJ - December 19, 2013

numbers just changed — my post above was directed at Ahmed.

799. Hillary - December 19, 2013

794. Ahmed
Yes, I have!
But no more serious than yours!!!

800. Captain Slow - December 19, 2013

I find it ridiculous that someone who has only been posting for a short time is suddenly accusing people who have been here for years of being sock-puppets.

If Bob Orci is still around, when you say that Alex will still be working on the movie do you mean as a writer or executive producer?

801. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

@ 795. MJ – December 19, 2013

“I think that there are 2 to 3 people on this site who have multiple identities, who are really screwing up the discourse for the rest of us.”

Yep! I don’t understand the need for anyone to have multiple identities in the first place, unless their solo purpose is to hijack the discussions for their little games.

802. Captain Slow - December 19, 2013

They’re sad people who feel that this is the only way to add some excitement to their miserable lives.

803. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

@797. Hillary

me no understand you say what :)

Anyway, not interested anymore in responding to your incoherent rants. You are free to skips my comments as well.

LLAP

804. K-7 - December 19, 2013

Maybe Hillary and Spock’s Bangs should “get a room.” LOL

805. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

@787. Phil – December 19, 2013

“Sorry, but all I’m getting from the Quinto interview is that Trek 13 may occur sometime this decade. The interviewer all but said it’s a back burner project, and Quinto didn’t disagree with him….”

I’m beginning to think that we are not going to get any official news until Bob & the new guys are done writing the first draft.

806. Phil - December 19, 2013

@805. Anything that does not come direct from Paramount is nothing more the opinion and conjecture. Re-read the Quinto interview, and while he was spilling his guts about upcoming projects, he was very vague about Trek. We know Bob isn’t going to comment on anything beyond ‘working on it’, so, yeah, until one of these other active projects gets bumped it’s a safe assumption that Trek will get wedged in there, somewhere…someday.

807. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

@787. Phil

From reading various stories about the Transformers 2 twin robots, it looks like that Michael Bay was responsible for their characterizations.

===================================

How did these characters make it through months of development, meetings and rendering to appear on screens this week?

At the press day for the film, screenwriters Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci initially passed the responsibility for the characters to Michael Bay, who passed it on to the voice actors, Tom Kenney (Spongebob Squarepants) and Reno Wilson, who is black. A couple of days ago Devin from CHUD quoted Kurtzman on the subject:

“I think a lot of what we did was following Michael’s lead. Those characters, more than any other, he had the strongest instinct for. Our job was to keep up with him.”

Bay explained that he designed the characters to appeal to kids; they’re certainly more overtly cartoonish and broad than anything else in the already broad movie. But his follow-up put all the blame on his voice actors:

“When you work with voice actors, especially with the twins, they did a lot of improv for their parts. We liked their improv and, from there, we would animate to their stuff. When you’re doing character animation and you’re building the character, it’s not like an actor where you shoot the scene and you’ve got it and you move on.”

Now Film School Rejects has Kurtzman and Orci talking more candidly about the two robots and their feelings about how they ended up in the final cut. The gold tooth was Bay’s idea, they confirm, and they’re embarrassed by the stereotypical caricature:

Orci: Number one, we sympathize. Yes, the gold tooth was not in the script, that’s true.

Kurtzman: It’s really hard for us to sit here and try to justify it.I think that would be very foolish, and if someone wants to be offended by it, it’s their right. We were very surprised when we saw it, too, and it’s a choice that was made. If anything, it just shows you that we don’t control every aspect of the movie.

Cole: Were you offended by them?

Kurtzman: I wasn’t thrilled. I certainly wasn’t thrilled.

Orci: Yeah, same reaction. I’m not easily offended, but when I saw it, I thought, ‘Someone’s gonna write about that.

http://www.slashfilm.com/no-one-wants-to-own-up-to-racism-in-transformers/

808. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

“Transcendence” two official teasers

http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/wb/transcendence/#videos-large

“Transcendence” is probably the first major sci-fi movie about the Singularity.

809. dmduncan - December 19, 2013

808. Ahmed – December 19, 2013

“Transcendence” is probably the first major sci-fi movie about the Singularity.

***

Nope! That would be Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Star Trek been there done that.

810. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

@ 809. dmduncan – December 19, 2013

“Nope! That would be Star Trek: The Motion Picture.”

I stand corrected. I completely forget about TMP.

811. dmduncan - December 19, 2013

I’m watching Jack the Giant Slayer for the first time, and I’ll bet anyone a burger and fries that movie looked good on PAPER. Script was probably a good read.

812. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

@ 811. dmduncan

“I’m watching Jack the Giant Slayer for the first time, and I’ll bet anyone a burger and fries that movie looked good on PAPER. Script was probably a good read.”

Abbott and Costello movie “Jack and the Beanstalk” was a lot funnier than Bryan Singer’s movie.

813. MJ - December 19, 2013

DM,

That is a good point. TMP hit that over a decade before Venor Vinge’s groundbreaking article on the information singularity.

814. MJ - December 19, 2013

Yea, I actually kind of pity them.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
802. Captain Slow – December 19, 2013
They’re sad people who feel that this is the only way to add some excitement to their miserable lives.

815. DiscoSpock - December 19, 2013

Guys, I agree.

I can’t recall ever seeing any positive contributions from that Spocks Bangs guy here. With him, it’s always something negative or unsupported accusations against me and other posters.

Heaven help if you disagree with Spocks Bangs on anything, because then you get labeled by him as a fraud, because of course their is no way it would be possible for multiple independent people on earth to disagree with him (sarcasm).

My prediction — mark my word here — he’s going to respond to this post of mine by claiming that I am actually MJ or Red Dead Ryan. Just watch….

816. Keachick - December 19, 2013

OK – what I don’t get is why so many people have objections to the discussion that took place on the shuttlecraft between Kirk, Spock and Uhura yet have no problem with Dr McCoy making statements in public about what he supposed was Kirk’s medical fitness/status?

On three separate occasions, in front of a fair few people, Kirk was having Dr McCoy demand that Kirk undergo Starfleet regulation medical check-up, which Kirk refused – in public! The first occasion was when Kirk was on the way to the shuttle headed for the Enterprise – Bones asks why Kirk had not turned up for his medical as per regulations because he has just not so long ago survived a fire fight, one in which he lost his commanding officer and mentor no less. Kirk responds with a nonchalant “I’m fine” to which Bones says “The hell you are!” Then, on the shuttlecraft which is full of Enterprise crewmembers, Kirk tells Bones to get that “thing” off him…Later, once they are aboard the Enterprise, in front of Scotty and other crew, Bones again tries to get Kirk to complete his medical and shouts, in front of everyone, “Jim, your vitals are way off!”

There is nothing kept personal/private in these scenes – far from it, in fact. Yet, nobody thinks that how Dr McCoy behaved could be considered a little bit inappropriate, however, ever since that discussion about Spock’s feelings and apparent behaviour between fellow officers and friends, with only two other people seated in a different shuttle’s next compartment, the criticisms have been intense and ongoing about how inappropriate the setting etc was.

Am I missing something here?

Actually, the shuttlecraft discussion scene is consistent with what was already shown in the movie to this point. The objections actually seem rather nonsensical and inconsistent to me.

Just an observation…

817. boborci - December 19, 2013

787. Love E K

what you have failed to understand so far is that the robots are CGi. their dialogue can be written and rewritten and their characterizations can be adjusted up until a MONTH before the movie comes out. Get it? I was not paid to sit in the editing room with Bay for a year after the movie was shot. and still, we argued against his characterizations. clear?

and dont lecture me about money — we walked away from part 3. it would be unseemly for me to tell you sepcifically what we walked away from. my conscience is clear.

818. MJ - December 19, 2013

Should I have heard of Ehren Kruger, or let alone, recongize “EK” as the shorthand for this writer’s name???

Here’s thinking that there is a reason I am a huge movie fan and have never heard of this writer. LOL

819. boborci - December 19, 2013

specifically…

820. MJ - December 19, 2013

Well, come on Bob, out with it?

821. Ahmed - December 19, 2013

@ 818. MJ – December 19, 2013

“Should I have heard of Ehren Kruger, or let alone, recongize “EK” as the shorthand for this writer’s name???”

Actually Ehren Kruger wrote two good movies, the Tim Robbins movie “Arlington Road” & the sci-fi movie “Impostor” with Gary Sinise.

The rest of his movies are not so great IMHO

822. Keachick - December 19, 2013

Why is there argument over a movie that is what it is and about a movie that Orci and Kurtzman had nothing to do with? Let the past be that – the past…

823. Phil - December 19, 2013

@818. Scapegoat….

824. Keachick - December 19, 2013

I just watched STID again and although I had noticed it before, I guess it struck me a bit more, especially given the objections raised about other scenes in this movie.

Dr McCoy is the Enterprise’s Chief Medical Officer. This, I believe, does give him a fair bit of authority, even over the captain and other commanding officers. The fact that he did not exercise that authority and insist that Kirk receive his full regulation medical check-up does seem to show a certain inability on McCoy’s part to take a stand where he has every legitimate right to do so. I would think that had he gone to either Scotty or Spock, they would have backed him up.

I guess this is part of the revealing of the various attributes or otherwise of the characters. It could be interesting to see how the writers might deal with this aspect of Dr McCoy’s nature…eh, Bob Orci?

825. Keachick - December 19, 2013

Sorry, I meant to explain how we write dates here re *1/12/13.

In NZ, we do as they do in England, ie day/month/year. 1/12/13 means 1 December 2013, which is when all of NZ went digital.

Just explaining for those who may not know and be confused with what I had written above…

826. dmduncan - December 19, 2013

The Skeleton Key is my favorite EK movie. I like surprise endings.

827. Captain Slow - December 19, 2013

@ 824 Keachick

I’m still not sure what the point of the check-up thing was. Unless of course it’s hinting at something in the next movie, although I doubt it.

828. dmduncan - December 19, 2013

If Michael Bay decides to so something offensive to you in the movie you are both working on, you can’t in good conscience defend it or take the knock for his decision as if it were equivalent to a mistake, which is a much more forgivable thing to make. If Bob and Alex argued against it and Bay ignored them and did it anyway, then I think distancing yourself from his decision is the right thing to do.

I would do the same thing.

829. Keachick - December 19, 2013

Dr McCoy explained that it was usual for people who had just survived a fire fight, as Kirk had, to receive a medical check-up. I would think it was a precautionary measure.

Although Dr McCoy did not say so on screen, the reality is that he knew who Pike meant to Kirk and that Kirk would be in shock. Kirk was in denial and Dr McCoy, or Bones to Jim Kirk, wanted to pre-empt any long term ill-effects. In the circumstances, Dr McCoy probably should have been more proactive. Then again, there was so much going on, so much distraction what with new torpedoes being loaded onto the Enterprise etc, kind of what Admiral Marcus was relying on happening…

830. Garak's Pride - December 19, 2013

#819 / Bob Orci

“specifically…”

OK, Mr. Orci, the suspense is killing me. Specifically, what?

831. Captain Slow - December 20, 2013

@ 829 Keachick

I understand the in-universe reason. What I meant is that I don’t know why it was in the movie. Writers and directors usually try to make sure that only what’s important is filmed.

@ 830 Garak’s Pride

I think he was about to reveal something important and so J.J. had him shot by a lone gunman.

832. K-7 - December 20, 2013

Yea, it looks like Bob got cold feet from making a big revelation to us here?

833. James McFadden - December 20, 2013

Maybe we could have either Robert Beltran or Jeri Ryan directing Star Trek 3.

834. dmduncan - December 20, 2013

Bob wasn’t about to make a “revelation.” He was correcting his misspelling of sepcifically.

835. Ahmed - December 20, 2013

@ 831. Captain Slow – December 20, 2013

“I think he was about to reveal something important and so J.J. had him shot by a lone gunman.”

lol, maybe he was going to reveal that the next movie will be in SPACE!

836. Spock's Bangs - December 20, 2013

#815 “My prediction — mark my word here — he’s going to respond to this post of mine by claiming that I am actually MJ or Red Dead Ryan. Just watch….”

Right…and wrong! You’re not Red Dead…anyone that’s read your posts knows this. But you are MJ. And Dave H. And K-7. And Red Shirt Diaries. And Admiral Archer’s Beagle!! Anyone that has ever read one of your mutual admiration society “pile-ons” knows this! lol. See dude, I wouldn’t care if you just didn’t suck sooo bad at doing it! the whole twisted point of sock-puppeteering is the perceived “need “, by the puppeteer, to bring much needed support to their “side” of an argument (without people knowing you’re doing it) lol ummmm…Can you say FAIL?

FACT!!

837. Spock's Bangs - December 20, 2013

Oh yeah, I forgot, your “good cop/ bad cop routines as Garak’s Pride . A little more inspired but just as transparent! lol

…FACT!

838. Phil - December 20, 2013

@830. Breaking news!! He’s working on it!! Not sure which it it is, but it is getting worked on. After all, it is what it is….

839. Ahmed - December 20, 2013

@ 838. Phil – December 20, 2013

“Breaking news!! He’s working on it!! Not sure which it it is, but it is getting worked on. After all, it is what it is….”

I thought they already made It back in 1990 :)

btw, you may want to take it easy on Bob about Transformers 2 twin robots issue. He seemed a bit edgy in his comment #817.

840. dmduncan - December 20, 2013

Hey, you guys see those hilarious James Earl Jones / Malcolm McDowell commercials? The one where they are wearing tuxedoes and performing dramatic readings of a Facebook comments war?

Any chance we can get them do a commercial where they read the Bob Orci-Ahmed feud?

James Earl Jones reads Bob!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDvame9c3vo

841. Hillary - December 20, 2013

832. K-7 – December 20, 2013
“Yea, it looks like Bob got cold feet from making a big revelation to us here?”

And you wonder about it?

Full of polymath people, so I do not understand why are you here at all Boborci? Looking for inspiration in the wrong place. The story is already supposed to be done a long time ago.
Respect

842. Ahmed - December 20, 2013

@840. dmduncan

“Hey, you guys see those hilarious James Earl Jones / Malcolm McDowell commercials? The one where they are wearing tuxedoes and performing dramatic readings of a Facebook comments war?”

lol, that was funny. You have a knack for finding interesting stuff on Youtube

“Any chance we can get them do a commercial where they read the Bob Orci-Ahmed feud?”

Come on, it wasn’t a feud. It was, shall we say, just a little disagreement :)

843. Keachick - December 20, 2013

#831 – What is deemed to be important by the writers is surely influenced by what is considered important in-universe. Obviously, Starfleet considers that members having regular medical check-ups, especially after they have survived a “fire fight” important, otherwise it would not have been written into the script. The regulation does make sense, even if it is not within a fictional Star Trek universe.

It was written so that the audience, through Dr McCoy – friend AND physician, could get a fairly accurate assessment of Kirk’s physical, mental and emotional status at the time when he asked Admiral Marcus if he could hunt down John Harrison. Clearly, it seems that Dr McCoy was worried and had reservations as to Kirk’s general fitness.

844. DiscoSpock - December 20, 2013

Everyone,

I said in post #815 above:

“Heaven help if you disagree with Spocks Bangs on anything, because then you get labeled by him as a fraud, because of course their is no way it would be possible for multiple independent people on earth to disagree with him (sarcasm). My prediction — mark my word here — he’s going to respond to this post of mine by claiming that I am actually MJ or Red Dead Ryan. Just watch…”

Then, EXACTLY AS I PREDICTED, Spock’s Bangs, who just can’t help himself it would seem, IMMEDIATELY RESPONDED BY CLAIMING THAT I AM A SOCK-PUPPET as follows:

“Right…and wrong! You’re not Red Dead…anyone that’s read your posts knows this. But you are MJ. And Dave H. And K-7. And Red Shirt Diaries. And Admiral Archer’s Beagle!! Anyone that has ever read one of your mutual admiration society “pile-ons” knows this! lol. See dude, I wouldn’t care if you just didn’t suck sooo bad at doing it! the whole twisted point of sock-puppeteering is the perceived “need “, by the puppeteer, to bring much needed support to their “side” of an argument (without people knowing you’re doing it) lol ummmm…Can you say FAIL? FACT”

Can you believe this person? He responded EXACTLY as I predicted he would, with this in your face/over-the top premptive strike. EXACTLY AS I PREDICTED HE WOULD REPOND !!!!

Now, I guess I am suppose to be quacking in my boots with fear…LOL…and you ohter readers here are supposed to be intimidated to believe him of course now….LOL….and now, of course, with your pyscho approach here, we all collectively suppose to be completely distracted by you, the actual puppetmaster, from you long string of growing clones, aka

– TrekMadeMeWonder

– Spocks Brain

– Skies Seven

– Who Cares

– I am not Herbert

– probably several more?

You are the real puppetmaster here. You have a group that keeps up a constant negative tone on everything, and who which most of its members accuse us legitimate posters of sockpuppeting, being trolls, name-calling, etc. It was challenging to see the patterns until recently, because you have obviously put a lot of work into your clone warrior army. But the facade has now been exposed to see. There is common negative and asinine tone that cuts across these posters — this single identity that is obviously you. Can you say, EPIC FAIL?

FACT

By the way, for any objective person out there who is trying to determine the truth here, I would ask that you go back to articles from the web sites first 1.5 years. There you will find that I was posting back then, and MJ had not started posting until a year after I. So there is some actual evidence that shows that I am not his sock-puppet — that doesn’t fit with this troolls twisted commentary.

845. Michael Hall - December 20, 2013

842. Ahmed – December 20, 2013

“Come on, it wasn’t a feud. It was, shall we say, just a little disagreement :)”

C’mon, don’t be so modest. That “disagreement,” and its temporary consequences, got quite a bit of attention on the interwebs if for no other reason than Bob Orci’s celebrity. As someone who publicly mixed it up with him for months in 2009 on this very site following the release of the 2009 film, I’m actually kinda jealous. :-)

846. Ahmed - December 20, 2013

@Matt Wright,

If you have got some time, will you please settle this issue of sockpuppeting once and for all, if possible ?
It is becoming really annoying with people accusing each other of doing it.

Personally, I think anyone who admitted or was caught sockpuppeting was be given a warning & if they repeated it, they should be banned for a period of time or whatever you feel is the right penalty.

847. K-7 - December 20, 2013

@845

Agreed. It went viral and was one of the biggest fan versus Hollywood arguments in fanboy history. People will be bringing this up for years.

I want to be clear on something here — I promised Ahmed and MJ that I would not bring up this topic again, and I won’t bring it up myself — I am responding to Ahmed himself bringing up this topic again. So I will only comment on this topic when I see Ahmed bringing it up.

848. Ahmed - December 20, 2013

@847. K-7

“I promised Ahmed and MJ that I would not bring up this topic again, and I won’t bring it up myself — I am responding to Ahmed himself bringing up this topic again. So I will only comment on this topic when I see Ahmed bringing it up.”

And you kept your promise, thanks for that.

btw, you can bring it up if it relevant to the discussion. My problem in the past, that you brought it up all the time regardless if it was relevant or not.

As for my comment, I was replying to DM comment # 840

849. Ahmed - December 20, 2013

@ 847. K-7 – December 20, 2013

“Agreed. It went viral and was one of the biggest fan versus Hollywood arguments in fanboy history. People will be bringing this up for years.”

I highly doubt that.

850. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - December 20, 2013

Re: Ahmed

“Matt Wright, If you have got some time, will you please settle this issue of sockpuppeting once and for all, if possible ? It is becoming really annoying with people accusing each other of doing it. Personally, I think anyone who admitted or was caught sockpuppeting was be given a warning & if they repeated it, they should be banned for a period of time or whatever you feel is the right penalty.”

Ahmed, thank you so much for bringing this up to Matt Wright. I have been real busy the past few weeks working extra hours to try to plan a nice Christmas for my kids (I am a single mom). Imagine my surprise today, when I finally checked here again, and I see that someone who I don’t even recall ever conversing with here, Spock’s Bangs,” challenges my identify here, and defames my character. I have never even heard of Spock’s Bang’s before? What the heck is going on here?

Matt Wright, I second Ahmed’s request. People should not be able to get away with making unsubstantiated person accusations like this against others’ here.

And I’ll go a step further. If Spock’s Bangs will list his address, phone number and email here for us all to see, then I will do the same. I challenge him to accept this, and best the first of us here to go truly public, with our identities. He seems to feel like he knows who everyone is here, so let’s see if he will join me in going public with our true identities for everyone to see?

851. Ahmed - December 20, 2013

Video interview with Leonard Nimoy

==============================
Leonard Nimoy & Pharrell Williams: Star Trek & Creating Spock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYwk-ObP1Rw

852. IDIC Lives! - December 20, 2013

#816 Keachick writes, “OK – what I don’t get is why so many people have objections to the discussion that took place on the shuttlecraft between Kirk, Spock and Uhura yet have no problem with Dr McCoy making statements in public about what he supposed was Kirk’s medical fitness/status?”

Frankly, I think the writers were just trying to give McCoy a few scenes, particularly as a doctor and not a torpedo deactivator. Good, Urban needs more scenes in the films.

However, I think there are pitfalls in taking STID (in particular) as gospel in every tiny nuance, and every nano-second. Star Fleet regulations? If you want to think so. But it’s not gospel and should not be stated as such.

The writers were trying to (re)create Star Trek, and good for them, giving the main 3 characters scenes together. McCoy acted like a doctor, Kirk acted like the leader, Spock acted like the resident skeptic. All ok, BUT–

In the Original Universe, the writers DID create Star Trek. It is the TRYING in this nu-universe which is too obviously TRYING all too often and not succeeding. That also makes it more difficult to take every word, scenario, and unwritten “nothing” as gospel.

853. MJ - December 20, 2013

@Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle

Beagle,

My apologies that your good name was brought into this weird mind game by this disturbed individual, Spock’s Bangs. That infantile little punk just can’t stand it when people from time to time here side me me on certain discussion topics.

He’s lost the battle in the court of intellectual discourse, so he is now just making shit up about your and others to offest his juvenile loss in pride from his inability to articulate ideas here that people will generally agree with.

Don’t worry though, we’ve pretty much exposed him now. He’s a delusional troll who is so impressed with himself, that he can’t fathom the idea that many people here always disagree with him. So, therefore, in his sick mind, all of these people that think he must be full of shit are, of course, only one single person with multiple identities.

Sick and twisted hubris and myopia, run amuck. His view is: “I’m always right, so of course there can’t be many people disagreeing with here; no, it’s just MJ f’ing with me”

Here’s your FACT, Spock’s Bangs:

You are always wrong here, and no one her either believes you or supports you here, sans your made up team of clone warriors.

854. IDIC Lives! - December 20, 2013

In other words, they had McCoy trying to chase down Kirk in pubic because they were trying to have some Trek characterization while the film proceeded to move at 800 mph, so they had to squeeze it in where they could. McCoy literally ended up chasing Kirk around.

Same with the Spock-Uhura squabble in the Mudd craft, the writers were trying to inject a bit of their romance in the 800 mph action and so that was where it “had” to happen.

It’s like injecting a brief Madame Butterfly refrain in the middle of Twisted Sister.

As such, I don’t think you can extract any profound questions from it like, why did McCoy do his chasing in public??? But if you can – then you can.

855. Curious Cadet - December 20, 2013

@852. IDIC Lives!,
“It is the TRYING in this nu-universe which is too obviously TRYING all too often and not succeeding.”

I don’t disagree with this. However, I think there was more to the McCoy scenes, which were perfectly in character with what we saw in TOS. Unfortunately, it seems that whatever this dialogue was intended to tie into, it did not make it into the final cut, and therefore ultimately fails. Perhaps I am giving the guys too much credit here, but in the absence of deleted scenes, it sure seems like there was a point to all of McCoy’s needling that was never made. It’s hard for me to believe they could be THAT unfocused in their writing.

856. IDIC Lives! - December 20, 2013

Curious Cadet, You mean something was wrong with Kirk (he was in shock I suppose) but the scene which “exposed” this, was cut? Well, maybe. It seems like that would be a fairly major aspect of the plot, could it have been in one or two scenes, then cut? Maybe so but my 800 mph analogy holds then. So they ended up with ham-handed brief characterization scenes, and de-legitimatized them by cutting them up…maybe so and that’s even worse!

I enjoyed STID, I am not a “professional hater” of it. I’m trying to say, since we know it does move at a very fast pace and if the scenes were probably cut, it makes it useless to try to make this or that into gospel. It’s not Star Fleet regulations, it’s not creating the Trek universe, it’s simply that the scene “had” to be cut, or was just squeezed in (if it were not a longer scene).

IOW, I accept all that, sadly. But it does not create the gospel of what Star Fleet regulations are, nor is McCoy at fault for his public pursuit of Kirk. You can’t build a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

857. Spock's Bangs - December 20, 2013

#844. hmmmm. disco, that sure is a whole lotta jibber-jabber from an innocent man. :)

858. Andorian - December 20, 2013

I agree with Spock’s Bang’s. He’s really opened my eyes to what is going on here.

859. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 20, 2013

Perhaps McCoy’s requests were prompted by his concern that Kirk had contracted a terrible venerial desease and was spreading it about the crew. His blatant public pronouncements were a last resort because Kirk was just disregarding all of his attempts to “Intervene.”

You think modern day vd is bad? I bet Bones was feeling just “ducky” about all the insestual transpecies “tail grabbing” his captain has indulged in recently.

860. Keachick - December 20, 2013

I am not trying to make anything into “gospel”. Without recalling the exact words, I believe that Dr McCoy did comment on it being regulation that anyone having being involved in a “fire fight”, as Kirk had, needs to have a check-up. I was not accusing McCoy of anything.

I think that was the point of those scenes where more personal discussions, medical check-ups etc should have taken place in more appropriate places did not happen that way, because of the frenzy created by John Harrison’s attack on a Starfleet location in London and then at the San Francisco HQ. Admiral Marcus used Harrison’s attacks to his personal advantage and his whole demeanour, even before Harrison attacked SF HQ, was boorish. He played on the natural fear and need to exact vengeance/justice of those who survived Harrison’s onslaught and lead this “800mph” frenzy. Kirk’s shock and grief at the death of Christopher Pike, along with the fact that he had been chewed out by Starfleet for failing to accurately report on what he ordered to take place at Nibiru etc, made him (Kirk) even more vulnerable to Marcus’s guile.

In other words, I think the film was made in such a way as to demonstrate how even the best and brightest can be whipped into an irrational frenzy and be prepared to do things they would not normally consider OK – like Kirk accepting Marcus’s command to hunt down Harrison and kill him, using new long range torpedoes to perform the illegal deed.

That is both the moral and the warning contained in the STID tale.

861. Keachick - December 20, 2013

#859 – Duh…sigh…:(

862. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 20, 2013

Irrational frenzy?

What do they say about great minds?

863. Red Dead Ryan - December 20, 2013

⊙⊙ ●●●●●●●● ○○○○○○■■■■■■♡♡♡♡♡♡♥♥♥♥♥♥♥¤¤¤¤····

Testing……

864. MJ - December 21, 2013

Look at this sequence folks….very interesting, wouldn’t you say? Does anyone recall ever seeing this “Andorian” poster before the last few days? My, “how convenient” for Spock’s Bangs. LOL

PS: And then of course, immediately after these two posts, TrekMadeMeWonder just happens to show up. LOL

Sheesh, you gotta admire the audacity of this guy.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

857. Spock’s Bangs – December 20, 2013
#844. hmmmm. disco, that sure is a whole lotta jibber-jabber from an innocent man. :)

858. Andorian – December 20, 2013
I agree with Spock’s Bang’s. He’s really opened my eyes to what is going on here.

865. Marja - December 21, 2013

854 IDIC Lives, we are certainly in agreement there. The movie went pell-mell, bang-bang-BAM, smack-punch-OW, kick-crush-DAMN!

Where were our characters? Squeezing some dialogue in between … some humor … some disputation … and I hope, with a new director, we’ll get a little more character and dialogue and less “relentless action.”

A good adjective actually, it was relentless. Just not in a good way.

866. Captain Slow - December 21, 2013

One thing I’m hoping with a new director is that we won’t have a J.J. exposition scene. In ST09, he wanted to keep everything secret for as long as he could, including in the movie. It eventually reached a point where we had to know Nero’s origins and motivation so they just lumped it all in the mind-meld scene.

In Super 8, he kept the origin and motive of the alien secret for most of the movie, until we needed to know. So he put it all in one scene.

In STID, it was the same with Khan. I understand wanting to maintain surprises before the movie comes out, but when I’m watching it I’d prefer to know what’s happening.

867. Marja - December 21, 2013

Agreed, and that whole “mystery box” thing … just didn’t work for STiD. Worked against it in fact.

The best mystery box would be giving us truly great Trek without so much relentless action, and surprise us with a good science fiction/ philosophical story.

I think the contemporary subtext was fine in STiD. As Rose Keachick pointed out above, “made in such a way as to demonstrate how even the best and brightest can be whipped into an irrational frenzy and be prepared to do things they would not normally consider OK” it was a story of how people are persuaded to do irrational, even immoral, things. A great allegory for this era.

I know Orci & Kurtzman did darn well with the time limit they were given, but I hope we can be freed from the 2-hour limit and go to maybe 2:15, and O&K won’t have to “squeeze things in” but can let characterizations and discussions flow a little more naturally, and to sensible conclusions.

868. Red Shirt Diaries - December 21, 2013

Spock’s Bangs,

Guy, can you at least not be so fracking obvious when you use your sock-puppets? Here’s and idea – next time, don’t post under your fake identities 3 times in row. ;-0

869. Captain Slow - December 21, 2013

I like the mystery box (I almost wrote misery box) for the marketing. But I don’t feel it has a place inside the movie. I enjoy speculating and being wrong. It helps to build the excitement and surprise. About a year ago I posted here a along list of reasons why there was no way Khan could be the villain. I even bet 47 million bars of latinum on it. I’m still waiting tables at Quark’s trying to pay it off.

870. IDIC Lives! - December 21, 2013

#855 The thing is, you probably can’t use an alleged deleted scene which we don’t know ever existed as a reason for hurried, somewhat illogical story-telling.

871. Curious Cadet - December 21, 2013

@870 IDIC Lives!,

Believe me I’m aware. My point is, things happen during and after the film shoot sometimes for better or worse which leads to information being cut from the final product. All I’m saying is that the problem may not be in the writing alone, nor at all. The things that make this Trek more of a shell than the original may have more to do with Abrams trying to make his days on set and trim his movie down to a tight MTV music video presentation, than poorly planned writing or story development.

872. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

870. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

I agree. I didn’t feel like something written was missing. To me it just looked like a fast way of showing us that something was wrong with the captain.

What was wrong? Spock turned him in. He lost his ship. Pike screwed up a potential hot date in the bar. Pike died.

All of which led to a massive drop of midichloriens in his punching arm.

There were visible reasons for his “vitals” to be “way off.”

873. IDIC Lives! - December 21, 2013

Maybe the “contemporary subtext” of STID is fine except it didn’t “stand by” its concepts enough to communicate them to the masses, so to speak. For instance, Kirk was worked into a frenzy re Pike’s death and the fire fight but general audiences wouldn’t even realize that this was a concept being championed in the film. STID shows us: 1) Kirk cried when Pike died, yes it really hurt him 2) next day he badly wanted to go after the villain – something expected of every human hero, apparently. But the 3rd point got cut or squeezed or the studio not want too political an opinion (?)

Whatever the reason, most people would not come away from STID saying, “Wow, Kirk refused medical help, he sure was worked into a frenzy, but Star Trek has shown us once again that intelligence triumphs over the baser human emotions, “frenzy” included.”

It’s just not clearly there. The unrelenting action and yes, violence IS there, people come away with that.

Look at “Errand of Mercy,” it relished, it celebrated — the joke on Kirk and Kor, it inspired; as we saw the Organians turn into sheer energy, it was we who evolved.

The ending of STID, so hurried: Yep, let’s not turn into the bad guys as we pursue the bad guys. Period, end of profundity. Got it.

Maybe Trek is just hopelessly meant for tv; I know they want the popcorn revenues in the films, but “Gravity” showed us that good science fiction does reach people (not just Trekkers – are we not people? Anyway–)

The “contemporary subtext” – yeah – right ok, got it. Not sure the masses did. Why not relish it, celebrate it, linger on it a minute– instead we got Space: the final frontier — proclaimed as “the captain’s oath” (huh? or whatever happened at that point?) and we collapse in a heap from all that action and too little intelligence.

874. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

Note to Bob:

You and Alex did a wonderful little film called People Like Us. No spaceships. Just characters.

I bring that up for a reason.

In TOS Kirk is a man who can’t have meaningful relationships because of his career. He is personally capable of them, but the circumstances of his life prevent them.

In ST.09 and STID, Kirk looks like a man who CAN’T have meaningful relationships. He just doesn’t know how.

In ST.09 Uhura represents the woman Kirk could have a meaningful relationship with, but he just sees her as a hit in a bar; Spock is the one who has one with her instead.

In STID he’s in bed with two cat women and he’s still hitting the bars. Same impression.

But now you’ve introduced Carol Marcus. What does it mean? Something more meaningful coming to Kirk? Kirk gets to mature because of her?

That’s why I mentioned People Like Us.

Now I’m not suggesting you do the next Star Trek like that, but since you’ve shown us that you can effectively write that kind of stuff, it would be nice to see a moment where we learn WHY Kirk is the way he is in your movies.

Particularly if you intend to mature him with the help of Marcus, it would be nice for us to learn the answer to that at the same time that she does, and to use her to represent all of us out here who are wondering the same thing. That isn’t a “fannish” thing to do; I think it has significance to the character and would, if done right, appeal to a broad audience.

If I was writing a sequel to STID, that is one thing I would do.

But I have very specific ideas and can’t pre-vouch for how what I just said would be interpreted and applied by anyone else. All I can say is, I know how I would do it, and IF it doesn’t fit organically—and by that I mean it shouldn’t feel like just another bell or whistle added on to spiffy up your movie, THEN ignore what I just asked for, even IF it seems like a good idea.

875. IDIC Lives! - December 21, 2013

Just a thought: How can STID’s Carol Marcus help mature STID’s Kirk when STID’s Carol is more juvenile than STID’s Kirk? If possible.

876. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

873. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

Maybe Trek is just hopelessly meant for tv; I know they want the popcorn revenues in the films, but “Gravity” showed us that good science fiction does reach people (not just Trekkers – are we not people? Anyway–)

***

I’ve thought that too. I don’t think there is any inherent issue in Star Trek that prevents that kind of Star Trek movie from being made, but I think box office results would be a concern. Those types of movies are always being made, but they are typically not franchise movies that sequels are expected of. I’m thinking of Shutter Island.

So I think that is the type of movie that the makers should shoot for when they KNOW they are at the end of their contract and aren’t coming back to do more of. Not saying they should do things that ignore the box office, but maybe do things where box office is not the Eye of Sauron directing all their decisions.

Bob and Alex made People Like Us. They know what that means.

877. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

875. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

Just a thought: How can STID’s Carol Marcus help mature STID’s Kirk when STID’s Carol is more juvenile than STID’s Kirk? If possible.

***

More juvenile? No idea what you mean. Naive, maybe, but that’s not juvenile. She knows she’s the sex who gets to carry the baby, and she creates no impression of being a female version of Kirk’s fratboy.

878. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

873. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

There seems to be a fear of slowing things down in the new movies, as if that alone accounts for Star Trek’s past withered presence on movie screens, and if they avoid that they’ll be safe at the box office.

Think of the scene aboard Mudd’s shuttle where Spock is explaining his feelings. Immediately after he’s done—almost like the period on the end of his sentence—the ship rocks with a hit from some unseen Klingon patrol ship, sequeing us into a chase scene.

It’s as if they think the audience may have flatlined during Spock’s brief exposition, and needs defibrillation.

879. IDIC Lives! - December 21, 2013

Ok, “naïve” – Kirk is “naïve” also in STID. Wisdom lacking.

It doesn’t take great maturity for a girl or woman to know she’s the one that carries the baby, I don’t get your point there.

Sorry but Carol in STID seems to me like a cute admiral’s spoiled daughter. Possibly a “brat” when younger. Yes, she’s smart, got her PhD. in advanced weapons – not really a guarantee of maturity as an individual.

“Don’t peek” is one little glimpse we get at Carol; that scene is her fault as much as Kirk’s. (“Come ahead, go away” – an immature girl’s tactics, trust me, I was once an immature girl). And she opens her arms….”here I am!”

STID’s Kirk seems to not be a frat boy as much as a renegade genius (?) boozer, possibly from “poor” (less secure, remember that bad old uncle), background. Carol is the one with the “frat girl” background.

Have it your way. I just expressed my opinion.

880. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

879. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

You don’t have to be touchy about it. I just see no comparison between Kirk and Carol, and you are making one. You can fill her background with any scenario to make your argument, but none of what is in your imagination is on the screen, and I’m going by what I saw or can infer from what’s on the screen. Kirk’s barhopping is on screen. Twice. His interest in flings is recorded.

Marcus? Nope.

Spoiled Admiral’s daughter??? She seemed more conscientious than spoiled, correctly concerned about what her father was hiding.

881. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

879. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

“Don’t peek” is one little glimpse we get at Carol; that scene is her fault as much as Kirk’s.

***

Even if I concede that your interpretation is accurate—and I don’t— the size of such a “fault” is MINISCULE compared to those Kirk has in STID.

882. Curious Cadet - December 21, 2013

@876. dmduncan,
“I don’t think there is any inherent issue in Star Trek that prevents that kind of Star Trek movie from being made, but I think box office results would be a concern. Those types of movies are always being made, but they are typically not franchise movies that sequels are expected of.”

Ender’s Game is a perfect example. I sadly called the box office results correctly. Enders will not even make its meager $110 million budget back, nor do as well as the Will Smith disaster “After Earth”, likely closing with a worldwide gross of a mere $90 million. And that’s a sad state of affairs for “real” sci-fi. If nothing else the franchise hopes for Ender’s is a stark lesson to Star Trek’s bean counters — keep the film trivial and glib so as to avoid alienating any potential casual audience. To me this seems like a legitimate concern for the next Trek film.

883. IDIC Lives! - December 21, 2013

Carol sneaked onto the Enterprise, a bit entitled, possibly not the most mature behavior. She did not reveal herself to the captain, even, quite a breach of the rules. If I sneaked onto the Enterprise, I’d get dumped at the nearest Star Base and kept in the brig for ten years :-) Obviously nothing too bad would happen to the Admiral’s daughter, she figured (?) if she were found out.

She did not know the Enterprise was being used in a black op effort to get Harrison, thus it was extremely dangerous to get on board (and I also wonder why the entire crew just got on board when it was an off-the-books, fire the torpedoes and haul ass mission – was it not a full compliment of crew?? Was it just those who signed up to go? Or can you just pull the wool over the entire crews’ eyes and tell them to get on board??)

I digress. Carol suspected her father had done something bad, True, she did not know what this mission would turn into. She had her suspicions re Daddy. But whatever the mission, the day after Star Fleet headquarters and some officers got wiped out, she decides to sneak on board the ship which is leaving in a big hurry so she can anonymously look at Dad’s torpedoes.

I guess when I think of a mature female Star Fleet officer or crew member, I think of Uhura – mostly Nichelle’s Uhura but, ok, Zoe’s Uhura too.

So IMO, I don’t see anything in STID that told us Carol was mature, rather than your opinion which says you saw nothing which was NOT mature. Or almost nothing.

To each his or her own opinion.

884. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

883. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

Carol sneaked onto the Enterprise, a bit entitled, possibly not the most mature behavior.

***

If you say “entitled” you ought to be able to point to things which make your case. All we really know from the movie was that whatever she did know made her so uncomfortable and concerned that she took what we could describe as a risk to discover the truth, and hid her identity so that she would not be discovered. That’s actually the opposite of entitlement behavior. She showed courage there because it was undeniably a risk.

Yeah, you could say it wasn’t a risk because Daddy would have bailed her out, but that is an assumption about something that could have been written but wasn’t. So it’s not really evidence that makes your case.

There is no evidence at all that Eve was coached to play her role as an entitled former brat, and how she does play it comes across as how they were trying to make her seem—as someone who’s very concerned about what her father is doing. She doesn’t trade on her father’s identity at all to get on board. She hides it. The only time she uses fillial advantage is to SAVE the ship—not to get what her entitled self wants. It fails, but she tried everything she could.

That’s evidence, not my imagination or opinion.

885. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

Star Trek: Renegades Official Teaser 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgRJWBB12GA

=============================

Another edgy & dark Trek ..sigh

886. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

@ 863. Red Dead Ryan – December 20, 2013

“⊙⊙ ●●●●●●●● ○○○○○○■■■■■■♡♡♡♡♡♡♥♥♥♥♥♥♥¤¤¤¤····
Testing……”

Are you testing a new weapon system ? :)

887. IDIC Lives! - December 21, 2013

#872 “What was wrong? Spock turned him in. He lost his ship. Pike screwed up a potential hot date in the bar. Pike died.
All of which led to a massive drop of midichloriens in his punching arm.
There were visible reasons for his “vitals” to be “way off.”

Why do you say I am “touchy” when I express my opinion? Goodness gracious! I diplomatically, tolerantly said, “IMO” “to each his own” and so forth and I meant it. You thought I was being sarcastic? I was not.

The above is one of your descriptions of Kirk. You did to him (have done so in other recent quotes re STID Kirk also) what you say I do to Carol. Let me show you, here is your quote in re-wording:

“What was wrong with Kirk?Spock’s life was saved by him (Kirk), and yet Spock reported him and he lost his ship which he loved and had been doing a good job at captaining. Pike screwed up a hot date in a bar but that was ok because Kirk found out he was First Officer of the Enterprise (again) and not going back to the Academy. But far out-shadowing any events, Pike was murdered almost before his eyes in a ruthless, mindless attack. Kirk is a caring, passionate individual and this death of the one who was like a father, left a gaping wound in his soul.”

That is my rendition of your Kirk description.

So, you see, Carol sneaking on board with NO sense of entitlement is YOUR OPINION. I pointed to evidence just as sound as yours. (Go try to sneak aboard a US Navy ship because you have suspicions of this or that and see where you land).

Truth is, if you served with Carol, you would really like her. If I served with Carol, she would not be my type – I don’t mean romantically but just as a friend. Now maybe I would grow to like her and maybe you would for some reason, decide you did not like her. I am trying to say, we are colored by our lives, mind sets, experiences, emotions– why do McCoy and Spock argue while Kirk gets along with both of them (usually?). Gee, we are all complex and we see things differently?!

Bottomline, I have said many times now, this is my opinion. I do not agree with Kirk being matured in the next film via Carol. Sorry, I disagree with you.

Let’s drop it. I should learn not to say anything on this site, I always end up saying “Let’s drop it.” And it never gets dropped. Am I so unreasonable, am I (horrors!”) malevolent or even, do I not deserve my moniker/avatar/whatever it’s called of IDIC LIVES?

Every time I leave, I promise myself I will not come back except to read the latest news. Alas, then because I have loved and supported Trek for almost 50 years, I just have to render an opinion.

DMDUNCAN, have Carol as you want her, yes this is Truth beyond all Truth. Carol is as you see her.

No wonder there are about 4 people on this site and 6.5 sock puppets.

888. MJ - December 21, 2013

@882

“Ender’s Game is a perfect example. I sadly called the box office results correctly. Enders will not even make its meager $110 million budget back, nor do as well as the Will Smith disaster “After Earth”, likely closing with a worldwide gross of a mere $90 million. And that’s a sad state of affairs for “real” sci-fi. If nothing else the franchise hopes for Ender’s is a stark lesson to Star Trek’s bean counters — keep the film trivial and glib so as to avoid alienating any potential casual audience. To me this seems like a legitimate concern for the next Trek film.”

Star Trek made $467M and Gravity made $642m. Oblivion made $286M as well.

Please stop cherry-picking a couple examples (one of which didn’t to well because of a world-wide boycott) to prove some theory of yours that simply does not hold water under closer inspection.

889. Keachick - December 21, 2013

This was not started as a discussion on the relative maturity or otherwise of Kirk and Carol or if Carol appeared “entitled” etc. I was merely pointing out the apparent inconsistency of people taking exception to a discussion taking place on board a lone shuttle between three people but not the same people taking exception to the very public assertions made by Dr McCoy about Kirk’s medical status (so far as Dr McCoy could ascertain). Kirk was not being at all co-operative.

Neither Carol nor Jim Kirk know that she might carry Kirk’s baby. That happened in the prime universe and the only person privy to that information is the older prime Spock and it is most unlikely that the older Spock would divulge any such information to either Kirk or Carol. Why would/should he? If Carol does conceive to Kirk, he would, quite likely, give a knowing nod – no more.

890. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

@MJ,

Since I know you are very excited about the new expanding Spider-Man movies, this article is for you, my friend :)

=======================================

Who Are the Sinister Six? – An Introduction to Spider-Man’s Supervillain Group

http://collider.com/sinister-six-movie-preview/

891. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

887. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

Why do you say I am “touchy” when I express my opinion? Goodness gracious! I diplomatically, tolerantly said, “IMO” “to each his own” and so forth and I meant it. You thought I was being sarcastic? I was not.

***

You correctly singled out what you said that made me respond that way, without any help from me, so it shouldn’t require any further answer from me about why what you said sounds touchy to me.

Also, you put QUOTES around an entire paragraph and call it my “quote in rewording.” Which is it? If you reword what I said, it’s not a quote. Although I think I understand the spirit of what you are saying, you should not do that. It can lead to misunderstandings.

Worst of all, you did not show what you claim to: how what I said about Kirk is equivalent to what you said about Carol; I point to evidence that shows why we can think McCoy is concerned about Kirk—because he’s morose for all the reasons on screen I named, and McCoy is his doctor, and you don’t point to anything that says Carol sneaked on board because she is an entitled ex brat.

I don’t have to point to something which is not there to defend my position that it isn’t there. You, on the other had, DO have to point to what you say is there to show me that I am wrong to say it is NOT there.

You did not do that. You just claimed to do that.

As far as the REAL Navy is concerned, that is beside the point. It’s not a real universe—it’s art, it’s one where I have to suspend my disbelief just to accept that things happen on screen as artfully as they do. But even if it were not beside the point, medals have been awarded to Marines who “sneaked” into the Marine Corps during WW2 when they weren’t legally old enough to join.

Even your argument that sneaking on board = immaturity does not logically follow from what you’ve claimed.

I’m not trying to start an argument, but if you are trying to say that everything is an opinion and none are better, more informed, more reasonably argued (take your pick) than any others—then I think you are wrong.

Logic is not a matter of opinion. It is the distinction between correct and incorrect reasoning. Literally, that is what it is.

I may well be wrong about what I have said, but to show that I am you have to show where my reasoning is incorrect. You can’t just settle it by suggesting we have equal but different opinions.

Nor is it about capital T Truth. A reasonable person is able to change their opinion when the evidence suggests they should. Those who retreat to the equivalence of all opinions argument do that so they don’t have to change their minds about anything, because “it’s all good.”

It’s not all good. Some if it’s bad.

892. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

One more thing: Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations is redundant.

If you have Infinite Diversity, that all by itself is EQUIVALENT to infinite combinations.

IDIC is not very different from saying “infinity plus infinity!”

893. DiscoSpock - December 21, 2013

@868

“Spock’s Bangs, Guy, can you at least not be so fracking obvious when you use your sock-puppets? Here’s and idea – next time, don’t post under your fake identities 3 times in row. ;-0″

Whoops !!!

How do you like that “jibber-jabber,” a-hole?

894. IDIC Lives! - December 21, 2013

#892 You’ll have to take up your opposition to IDIC with the ghost of Gene Roddenberry.

And you feel one should give their opinion and then not defend it or explain it – unless that someone is you.

895. Curious Cadet - December 21, 2013

@873. IDIC Lives!,
“but “Gravity” showed us that good science fiction does reach people”

There’s a real debate as to whether “Gravity” is actually scifi as far as movie audiences are concerned. The suspension of disbelief in Gravity is minimal, because we’ve been seeing this kind of thing on TV since the 60s. In fact, astronauts on a space walk are routine, almost boring. The events of Gravity could literally happen on any given day, and the average movie audience has been prepped since childhood for the setting of this film. Moreover, the story is similar to Ghost meets The Sixth Sense. Is it Sci-fi? Technically, sure. Practically speaking it’s just a romantic drama set in space. Was City on the Edge of Forever more sci-fi, or a romantic drama? What happens when we catch up technologically to Star Trek, will contemporary movies be called sci-fi?

It’s interesting to see Boxofficemojo’s comparison to 2013 original scifi.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/showdowns/chart/?id=2013scifi.htm

Gravity is nothing like the other films it’s being compared to. And it did wildly better than any of them. Pacific Rim is the next best box office and it’s really more like STID and other Summer action blockbusters than anything else on that list. The other hard-core scifi pics all did about the same limited business, and each had a major star tied to it. Cruise, Smith, Damon. Ender’s Game is not included, but domestically it did about as well as After Earth to which Box Office Mojo did a direct comparison from the beginning. Worldwide Ender’s didn’t do as well, and one has to wonder if it’s lack of a major star (Harrison Ford is not in the same league anymore as the others), and critics have speculated part of that the lack of 3D contributed. But none of the films did even as well as STID, even with major stars.

Another factor that all four of those sci-fi films have in common is that all of their budgets were $110-130 million, making box office takes of $280 million acceptable; which would not be the case if the budgets were $190 million like STIDs. Then again they all had major box office celebrity draws, with the exception of Ender’s Game which won’t even make its budget back.

So if Trek takes an approach more like these four films, rather than the Pacific Rim action film model, and without major stars involved; might it lose over half its box office too? Or to put it another way, what is making Star Trek so successful at the box office? Is it the Summer blockbuster formula of non-stop action, violence, and devastation, that you propose? Or is it something else?

896. DiscoSpock - December 21, 2013

@894

Are you Spock’s Bangs as well?

:-(

897. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

894. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

No, I do not feel or expect that at all. I never try to shut anyone up, to force my view on them, or to discourage them from expressing their opinion whether I agree with it or not.

I LIKE challenges. They help me to improve.

898. DiscoSpock - December 21, 2013

“There’s a real debate as to whether “Gravity” is actually scifi as far as movie audiences are concerned. ”

Where is this active debate you are talking about? I have just tried searching for it, and I cannot find any forum in which this is being debated?

Me thinks you are making this up, as I have never heard of this major debate going on that you are referring to here?

899. DiscoSpock - December 21, 2013

..not to mention that the biggest money-making film of all time was essentially a sf movie not all that different from the sf in Star Trek — Avatar.

900. Captain Slow - December 21, 2013

To go back a little to the Carol Marcus discussion, I was thinking about what kind of development Kirk will receive in the movie. Obviously very few of us (although there are some) want “Star Trek: Honey, I’m Home”, but they (in my opinion) did mature Kirk a lot with Into Darkness, and so now he should be taken in a new direction. What that direction should be, I don’t know. What I don’t want is for them to bring in David Marcus/Kirk or to kill off Carol. Both of those would be predictable. We need something unexpected.

901. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

900. Captain Slow – December 21, 2013

The thing that makes me think they’ll use Marcus to mature him is because a meaningful relationship is something we haven’t seen Kirk have yet, and Marcus is just what the doctor ordered.

Seeing him CAPABLE of having one would be a concrete sign that he’s growing up.

It’s either that or they are just trying to give Kirk A girl because that is typically what A hero gets.

902. Disinvited - December 21, 2013

#883. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

Perhaps, but that really isn’t the precedent the 2009 movie set. There, Kirk sneaks aboard Enterprise, reveals himself to the captain in a “What the hell are you doing on my ship?” moment, and gets a promotion and a mission. He doesn’t get kicked off the ship until he vociferously challenges an acting captain.

So, in sneaking on the ship, Carol is following a Kirk set precedent in that regards, at least.

903. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

I for sure don’t want Star Trek: Honey I’m Home. I’m dreading the Kirk and Spock on a double date scene, or the Kirk and Spock complaining about their women run into Uhura and Marcus complaining about their men scene.

904. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

@902. Disinvited

“So, in sneaking on the ship, Carol is following a Kirk set precedent in that regards, at least.”

Yet, another repeated plot point from ST09 !!!

905. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

@ 903. dmduncan – December 21, 2013

“I’m dreading the Kirk and Spock on a double date scene, or the Kirk and Spock complaining about their women run into Uhura and Marcus complaining about their men scene.”

lol, I won’t put it past the writers to include a scene like that in the next movie !

906. Captain Slow - December 21, 2013

I think Keenser will get the girl. Kirk will get beaten up.

907. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

@ 906. Captain Slow – December 21, 2013

“I think Keenser will get the girl. Kirk will get beaten up.”

lol, me think that because Spock is going through Pon farr, he will have a foursome with Uhura, his Vulcan wife & an Orionian girl.

908. Captain Slow - December 21, 2013

They already dealt with Spock’s Pon farr in the comics so thankfully it won’t be in the movie.

909. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

@ 908. Captain Slow – December 21, 2013

“They already dealt with Spock’s Pon farr in the comics so thankfully it won’t be in the movie.”

I stopped reading the comics a long time ago. The artwork is not that great & most of the early stories were just rehash of TOS episodes.

I was planning on getting the new Khan comics but it getting lousy reviews so far.

Most people don’t think the comics are canon anyway, I won’t be surprised if they reused stuff from the comics, like the Pon farr, in the next movie.

910. Phil - December 21, 2013

@907. Actually Keenser gets Kirk. Once interspecies, never back…

911. Red Dead Ryan - December 21, 2013

Curious Cadet,

I don’t understand why you seem to think there is some kind of debate as to whether or not “Gravity” is a true science fiction movie. I have seen no such debate myself, either on this site or any other. The movie takes place in space, and the story involves science while the actual plot is fiction.

Also, sci-fi can do well at the box office, “Gravity”, “Star Trek Into Darkness”, “Oblivion” and “Pacific Rim” have all done well worldwide.

I really think you need to do some research on the matter before making these types of asinine conclusions.

912. Captain Slow - December 21, 2013

@ 909 Ahmed

They now only seem to be doing original stories. Also, the one running right now seems to be dealing with the Klingon war although I’m not sure since I’m waiting until all four issues are released as one next year to get it. They could get the war out of the way in the comics and then focus more on exploration in the movies.

913. MJ - December 21, 2013

“Curious Cadet, I don’t understand why you seem to think there is some kind of debate as to whether or not “Gravity” is a true science fiction movie. I have seen no such debate myself, either on this site or any other. The movie takes place in space, and the story involves science while the actual plot is fiction.”

RDR, I agree 100%. I have followed all developments on the Internet concerning Gravity, and I have never once run across any debate, among fans or the press, about whether this is sf or not. To my knowledge, no such public debate exists. This would seem to be another of of CC’s famous “fabrications.”

914. MJ - December 21, 2013

Nice touche move against the real puppet-master. Well played, DiscoSpock; well played! :-))

==========

893. DiscoSpock – December 21, 2013
@868

“Spock’s Bangs, Guy, can you at least not be so fracking obvious when you use your sock-puppets? Here’s and idea – next time, don’t post under your fake identities 3 times in row. ;-0″

Whoops !!!

How do you like that “jibber-jabber,” a-hole?

915. Red Dead Ryan - December 21, 2013

912. Captain Slow,

The fact the comics are dealing with the Klingon war is a good sign that the next movie will more likely be about something else entirely. I believe that Damon Lindelof came up with that idea, but he has now left the production staff so now Bob is free to write his own original script.

913. MJ,

Yeah, CC doesn’t seem to allow facts to get in the way of his arguments, does he? :-)

916. IDIC Lives! - December 21, 2013

#892
What Roddenberry meant is, “There is infinite diversity in the universe. That infinite diversity forms infinite combinations.” It is conceptual, not literal.

My moniker refers to Star Trek’s “infinite diversity in infinite combinations” philosophy. So, just so you know, you are not insulting me when you fail to comprehend “IDIC ” in its conceptual, poetic form.

I am not the IDIC which/who lives; Star Trek is the IDIC which lives.

I capitalized Truth because that’s how you presented your opinion – as absolute truth.

“That’s evidence, not my imagination or opinion,” said you. No, it was indeed your opinion in every reality but your own.

917. IDIC Lives! - December 21, 2013

Sock puppets upon sock puppets! Thinking there are 4 actual humans on this site might be an exaggeration.

918. Keachick - December 21, 2013

The reason that we have not seen any ongoing relationship happen for Kirk or anybody else, other than Spock and Uhura, is that the producers/writers are convinced that audiences can only tolerate seeing one (romantic) relationship without getting upset and antsy about it. The point is proven because of the constant calling of any such interludes as being “cheesy” or comments, as above, “dreading the double date scene…” and on and on the complaints have ranged, even when the writers haven’t actually written anything.

If people do not want to see repeated violence, explosions, long winded chase scenes, along with all the associated NOISE, then allow the writers more options when it comes to the kinds of stories they can tell and show re the main characters. These should include telling a story (stories) about intimate relationships involving male/female and/or same sex scenarios. *Love* makes the world (and universes?) go round, so they say…well, allow for that…Let it be!

I really do not understand why so many people are so bothered by the notion of any intimate relationships being shown or the fact that, in this alternate universe, the young Jim Kirk might actually get to know the child he fathered, BEFORE he reaches 20 (David in prime universe).

Rose Keachick is human – ain’t no sockpuppet. Hell, I had to look up what that meant, along with who the hell “Mary Sue” and the Kardashians were…:(

919. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

@918. Keachick

“These should include telling a story (stories) about intimate relationships involving male/female and/or same sex scenarios. *Love* makes the world (and universes?) go round, so they say…well, allow for that…Let it be!”

No, thanks. I don’t want Star Trek turned into soap opera.

If you like love stories in space, you may want to check out the ABC series “Defying Gravity”. I think you will love it.

Defying Gravity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkan7ThRpaI

920. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

@ 917. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

“Sock puppets upon sock puppets! Thinking there are 4 actual humans on this site might be an exaggeration.”

Are You Alive? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Ob7RWF-A8

921. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - December 21, 2013

@918. Keachick – December 21, 2013

“Rose Keachick is human – ain’t no sockpuppet. Hell, I had to look up what that meant, along with who the hell “Mary Sue” and the Kardashians were…:(”

Ha! I understand that last one. The first time I heard someone say ‘Keeping up with the Kardashians’ aloud, I thought “what on Earth are they talking about? Is this a new Star Trek spin-off involving Cardassians?”… Sadly, it is not.

922. Keachick - December 21, 2013

As has been pointed out many, many times before by myself and others, these normal human relationships would constitute a sub-plot to the main story of Star Trek, which is about the captain (Kirk) and his crew exploring the astronomical space, near and far, and dealing with whatever might come their way. These people are (extra) ordinary human beings (for the most part) who have needs and wants much as people have today. Such needs/wants should not be denied or overlooked, otherwise Star Trek will lack genuine human sense and relatability.

I am sure that other sci-fi shows are very good at presenting their various scenarios and themes, but I am concerned with what themes, philosophies, ideologies, characters Star Trek has presented and could continue to do.

Frankly, I am offended by what I would like to see played out as being merely reduced to and described as “soap opera”. Enough!

923. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

@922. Keachick

You are not going to see that in a SF/action movie. Sure, they will show quick sex scenes or Kirk chasing women but they are not going to waste 15 minutes to show Kirk the family man or Spock/Uhura the happy married couple with their 10 children running around.

Star Trek is not rom-com, people don’t go to a Star Trek movie to get bored by social/romantic life of the crew.

Tell me, what do you know about Uhura ? Do you know her favorite song or color? What about her life outside Starfleet, any ideas ? Nope

In a TV series, they can take their time building up the character background & history. In an action/SF movie they don’t have that.

btw, you don’t need to be offended whenever someone disagree with you.

924. MJ - December 21, 2013

@922 @923

(1) If I want to watch The Brady Bunch, then I’ll watch the Brady Bunch.

(2) If I want to watch Star Trek, then I’ll watch Star Trek.

But, for the sake of God, for the sake of my sanity, and for the sake of simple dignity and common sense, please NEVER mix #1 and #2.

;-)

925. Ahmed - December 21, 2013

@924. MJ

“But, for the sake of God, for the sake of my sanity, and for the sake of simple dignity and common sense, please NEVER mix #1 and #2.”

LOL

926. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 21, 2013

Don’t count me out!

Human and a TrekMovie poster for over 5 years here!

927. Marja - December 21, 2013

873 IDIC Lives, Look at “Errand of Mercy,” it relished, it celebrated — the joke on Kirk and Kor, it inspired; as we saw the Organians turn into sheer energy, it was we who evolved.

Indeed, that is why it is one of my very favorite episodes.
The ending of STID, so hurried: Yep, let’s not turn into the bad guys as we pursue the bad guys. Period, end of profundity. Got it.

It was too rushed for sure. I would have liked to see some reflection on the parts of Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Uhura. The “contemporary subtext” – yeah – right ok, got it. Not sure the masses did. Why not relish it, celebrate it, linger on it a minute YES. Why is murderous rage our first response to loss and fear? That sort of thing. Even a 3-minute scene over drinks at Kirk’s apartment. Instead, we got Kirk’s speech, which seems to belie everything that went before. ALL that violence, man, I wanted to take a shower, yet I loved the emotional moments. They seemed to me [and I do love some angst] pitch-perfect.
Though in many ways the plot was deeper, I only saw StiD in theatre 6 times [I saw STXI in theatre 15 times]. It began to feel the film was rushing me thru the emotional wringer. THEY NEED TO EXPAND AND REFLECT A BIT. Give us – and the characters! – time to recover from the intensity. Even Beethoven has pianissimo in his symphonies for pete’s sake.
Maybe Trek is just hopelessly meant for tv; I know they want the popcorn revenues in the films, but “Gravity” showed us that good science fiction does reach people (not just Trekkers – are we not people? Anyway–)

The problem is that “Gravity” – a damned good film – did not make nearly the money Paramount wanted and expected from Trek. (I’m afraid it’s $$ that stand in the way of a thoughtful Trek film – part of the reason I plead for a Fall release vice a Summer Blockbuster release. But how ya gonna keep Paramount down on the farm now that they’ve seen Paree? [all the buck$].) Many of us loved Gravity for the reason that it was quiet, exploring character in the moment of disaster. Finding a hard solution [though many science folk told us some elements were bloody unlikely, like space stations all in a row like “pretty maids”], pushing through with grit and determination. Finding a reason to go on. A reason to continue the space endeavor.

A reason to Trek, if you will.

928. Keachick - December 21, 2013

MJ – What about “dignity”? Did I ever mention showing what would be undignified? No, I did not…

Who is talking about rom com or showing 10 children running around Spock and Uhura etc? Certainly not me…

Get a grip, people!

Yes, I can be offended and say so, if I wish or deem it necessary. I know what a “soap opera” is, how such a genre began and how it got its name. However, for those of us who live outside the USA, it has little or no meaning or relevance. Not everybody has developed television or the kind of programming style that you have in the USA. It has certainly not been the case in Britain, especially when you talk about the BBC channels. If there are “soap operas”, they certainly do not share the same raison d’etre as do the US soap operas nor much of anything else really.

929. Marja - December 21, 2013

878 duncan,
Thus my conclusion that they did that scene on the Mudd ship enroute to Kronos to show the passage of time IN ADDITION to some exposition in Spock and Uhura’s relationship. And followed it RIGHT up with frantic action. Haha “flatline” – Yep, I think that’s one of the “Stop ‘em from checking their Smartphones!” moments.

930. Marja - December 21, 2013

She did not know the Enterprise was being used in a black op effort to get Harrison, thus it was extremely dangerous to get on board (and I also wonder why the entire crew just got on board when it was an off-the-books, fire the torpedoes and haul ass mission – was it not a full compliment of crew?? Was it just those who signed up to go? Or can you just pull the wool over the entire crews’ eyes and tell them to get on board??)

I suspect that Adm Marcus may have issued orders for the Enterprise for some regular-seeming mission, the true purpose of which was known only to Kirk and Spock, which was later discovered by the crew as they went along. Crazy way to run a railroad, but that’s Black Ops for you.

931. Marja - December 21, 2013

889 Keachick, I was similarly peeved that McCoy challenging Kirk on his condition never went further. In essence Kirk blew off the CMO’s opinion re: his health, mental and physical, and it would’ve been very nice to see a brief scene with Spock [as First Officer] and McCoy [as CMO] challenging Kirk on this. Because Kirk could’ve been relieved by the CMO.

932. MJ - December 21, 2013

“However, for those of us who live outside the USA, it has little or no meaning or relevance. Not everybody has developed television or the kind of programming style that you have in the USA. ”

That’s interesting, because on my two trips to New Zealand, an hour (2 episodes) of Two-and-a-half-Man was being showing in the post news hour every night of the week. And that is one of our dumbest lowbrow shows — I personally can’t stand that sitcom. But it sure looked to me like Charlie Sheen and USA-style slapstick sex, toilet and booz type humor is pretty popular in New Zealand?

933. Marja - December 21, 2013

dmduncan, I’m not trying to start an argument, but if you are trying to say that everything is an opinion and none are better, more informed, more reasonably argued (take your pick) than any others—then I think you are wrong.

Logic is not a matter of opinion. It is the distinction between correct and incorrect reasoning. Literally, that is what it is.

I may well be wrong about what I have said, but to show that I am you have to show where my reasoning is incorrect. You can’t just settle it by suggesting we have equal but different opinions.

Nor is it about capital T Truth. A reasonable person is able to change their opinion when the evidence suggests they should. Those who retreat to the equivalence of all opinions argument do that so they don’t have to change their minds about anything, because “it’s all good.”

Funnily enough, IDIC was saying exactly the same sort of things recently that you are saying here re: logic, and I was on the side of “IMHO/it’s all good” … mainly b/c I think there’s an awful lot of passion expended here sometimes. Then people use condescending language and rude language and all the rest and nasty arguments happen. I hope I’m not inciting one here.

I maintain that Truth is relative. We may say that canon is Truth, canon is onscreen, but millions of moviegoers may have millions of opinions about what they saw onscreen. (e.g., some saw Uhura as bitchy and whiny. I saw her as concerned and frightened about Spock, and think the real time director’s decision to squeeze the scene in between “relentless action” sucks.)

“Correct” and “incorrect” reasoning vary also, depending on the beholder, do they not? Look at the US Congress: each side believes its reasoning is correct, no matter how illogical it seems to the opposing side. We citizens miss the old days of polite disagreement and polite debate and across-the-aisle cooperation. Instead we’ve seen Congress devolve into a nest of snakes, biting and poisoning each other every time a policy difference arises. TMMW, for example, will never persuade some of us to watch The Video re: 9/11, and nor will some of us be swayed re: the Truth regarding that terrible event. Just sayin’.

Gently and nicely yours,
Marja

934. Marja - December 21, 2013

902 Disinvited, Perhaps, but that really isn’t the precedent the 2009 movie set. There, Kirk sneaks aboard Enterprise, reveals himself to the captain in a “What the hell are you doing on my ship?” moment, and gets a promotion and a mission. He doesn’t get kicked off the ship until he vociferously challenges an acting captain. So, in sneaking on the ship, Carol is following a Kirk set precedent in that regards, at least.

One of the many reasons [besides the Vengeful Villain trope] I am puzzled about why STXI lately seems to be getting such a “break” here ….

935. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

916. IDIC Lives! – December 21, 2013

What Roddenberry meant is, “There is infinite diversity in the universe. That infinite diversity forms infinite combinations.” It is conceptual, not literal.

***

Yes. The second part uses different phraseology to repeat the meaning of the first part. That’s why it’s redundant. Diversity? Of what? Combinations? Of what? What NEW idea does the second part of the statement introduce which the first is not infinite enough to already contain?

You don’t have to say “infinity plus infinity.” It only makes sense to those who don’t understand what “infinite” means.

“I capitalized Truth because that’s how you presented your opinion – as absolute truth.”

Yeah, I’m aware of WHY you capitalized it (it wasn’t that mysterious), but the reason is false. And that is why not all opinions are created equal. The opinion you just expressed is a false interpretation that does not accurately describe either what I said or my habit of thinking.

Absolutists don’t require evidence to believe what they do. I do require evidence.

People who are afraid of challenging their beliefs and of changing their minds are the absolutists. They are the ones who want to live in a bubble of their own imagination.

936. dmduncan - December 21, 2013

933. Marja – December 21, 2013

“Correct” and “incorrect” reasoning vary also, depending on the beholder, do they not?

***

Well, not really Marja. :-) I gave what is pretty much a textbook definition of what logic is.

Both inductive and deductive reasoning have rules; where deductive reasoning is concerned, those rules govern how conclusions follow from propositions. You can’t construct a deductive argument any way you feel like it and still claim that your conclusion follows from your premises anymore than one could say that 2 + 2 = 5.

There are exactly FOUR types of INVALID arguments (incorrectly reasoned), and THREE types of VALID arguments that are correctly reasoned (the conclusions follow from their premises), but still false.

Only A SOUND argument is both VALID (correctly reasoned) and has all true propositions (true premises and a true conclusion).

Everything else is varying degrees of “BS.”

Yes, it is quite tricky sometimes to establish the truth of the premises, but once you do and your argument is correctly constructed, then a reasonable person is actually compelled to accept the conclusion even if he was previously opposed to doing so.

“Look at the US Congress: each side believes its reasoning is correct, no matter how illogical it seems to the opposing side.”

Politicians specialize in emotive language and throwing fallacies at each other. They can believe anything they want, but they can’t do correct reasoning any way they want. They do not have the power to change what REALLY is and is not logical.

937. Marja - December 21, 2013

901 duncan, Surely the experience of death and rebirth matured Kirk not to mention the near loss of his crew … his leaping into a situation and being ‘rewarded’ with betrayal?

I could enjoy a Kirk/Marcus scene – if both are written as grown-ups, not so foolish as they were in the regrettable STiD UNDIES! scene – Kirk can be better-rounded as a character, but he definitely got his juvenile [IMO] attitude of “I’ll just jump in cos I’m lucky” adjusted in STiD.

And I would love a Spock and Uhura scene, but neither of those things, keeping to adult relationships apart from the world of work, would turn Trek into “Honey I’m Home” if kept within the flow of action/science fiction. Working couples do occasionally kiss, away from the workplace.

938. MJ - December 21, 2013

@935

Within a diverse set of cultures, the cultures can group or communicate with each other in many possible combinations. That is my understanding of the term.

939. Captain Slow - December 21, 2013

If they have to bring in a relationship for Kirk (something I’d be very apprehensive about), the two most important things to keep in mind is to not make it fan wish fulfillment stuff, or dumbed-down teenager wish fulfillment stuff.

940. Marja - December 21, 2013

“Correct” and “incorrect” reasoning vary also, depending on the beholder, do they not?”

I was referring to “content” not process; i.e., “Republican A believes Democrat A’s reasoning is faulty”, but you are absolutely right, both argue from emotive points of view using fallacy because many Americans are not reasoned or intelligent enough to break down such arguments.

As you can see, I’ve not had an education in Logic. I feel I can reason fairly well, but also recognize my constitutional inability to accept certain ideas, e.g., some people have the idea that “Uhura is a whiny bitch” – based on what? On their interpretation of scenes in a movie. But their interpretation is influenced by their worldview. Could be “all women are bitches” … could be “women should shut up and do what they’re told” … “a woman should never challenge her man.”

Does that make one interpretation valid or invalid? My idea of Uhura is quite different, of course, but is my idea valid or invalid? It is based in my worldview, feminism, and liking for the couple as presented [mostly]. But it’s all interpretation, innit?

941. DiscoSpock - December 22, 2013

@Keachick: ” I know what a “soap opera” is, how such a genre began and how it got its name. However, for those of us who live outside the USA, it has little or no meaning or relevance.”

Hmm, I just found this below on the Internet:

“Shortland Street
Format Soap opera
Country of origin New Zealand
No. of seasons 22
Shortland Street is a New Zealand prime-time soap opera centering around the fictitious Shortland Street Hospital, first broadcast on Television New Zealand’s TV2 on 25 May 1992. It is the country’s longest-running drama and soap opera, being broadcast continuously for over 5000 episodes and 20 years, and is one of the most watched television programmes in New Zealand. The show was originally screened as five half-hour episodes each week and initially receiving mixed reviews on its premiere.[2] After its launch it dropped in ratings and would have been cancelled if TVNZ had not ordered a year’s worth of episodes in advance. By early 1993, the show’s rating picked up and TVNZ renewed the production. Today, it is one of New Zealand’s highest-rated shows, frequently making AGB Nielsen Media Research’s top 5 programmes of the week.”

So Keachick, would you care to explain again how people in New Zealand have no idea what a Soap Opera is???

I mean, come on, this is obviously one of the most popular TV show in you country over the past two decades???

942. dmduncan - December 22, 2013

940. Marja – December 21, 2013

Well some things ARE interpretations that I do not think we find evidence for in the movie. I think the movie makes it pretty clear that Carol did sneak on board. It would be wrong to concede that her sneaking aboard was not established in the movie, to someone who for some reason wanted to argue that she did not sneak aboard, assuming that you both use the word “sneak” to mean the same thing.

But if you then provide an explanation for why she sneaked on board such as she’s a spoiled ex brat, then you are making stuff up, and the reasons for that are probably personal and have to do with that person’s own experiences. Whatever their experiences are, that’s just not in the movie. I think the movie establishes she was deeply concerned about what her father was keeping secret as the reason she got aboard. Anything else is what you bring to it, and I think we can clearly keep those two things separate in our own minds even when we like to play around with personal interpretations.

I also agree with you on Uhura. She never seemed bitchy to me. It might be that whoever said that was using words not as precisely, or you may be right that people who see her that way are imposing their world view on the movie.

943. MJ - December 22, 2013

“So Keachick, would you care to explain again how people in New Zealand have no idea what a Soap Opera is??? I mean, come on, this is obviously one of the most popular TV show in you country over the past two decades???”

OK, Disco, so the most popular TV show over the past two decades in New Zealand is in fact a soap opera — of which Keachick claimed folks in New Zealand wouldn’t generally understand because they don’t have soap operas over there?

LOL..sounds like we’ve been fibbed to here, folks. :-)

944. MJ - December 22, 2013

“I also agree with you on Uhura. She never seemed bitchy to me. It might be that whoever said that was using words not as precisely, or you may be right that people who see her that way are imposing their world view on the movie.”

She wasn’t “bitchy,” but she had some whiny lines due to some bad choices the writers made. Zaldana did the best she could within a not-so-great and sexist at times written role for here in STID. The writers should have done better by Zaldana and Uhura — they dropped the ball here a bit in my opinion.

945. Captain Slow - December 22, 2013

For a while after seeing ST09 I wasn’t sure about Zoe Saldana as Uhura because she didn’t seem quite right in the movie. But then I’d seen her in some interviews and I realized that she actually seemed more like Uhura in real life than the movies. But I do trust the writers to improve in the characterization. Scotty for instance was improved massively in STID to the point where I’d say it was Scotty’s best movie.

Another thing to keep in mind is that STID was only the second Star trek movie made by this team. Look at TNG, by their second episode they were already mining plots from TOS (and you could also say that Q was ripped off from Trelane). No one ever gets everything right first try so give them a chance to improve.

946. Curious Cadet - December 22, 2013

@945. Captain Slow,
“No one ever gets everything right first try so give them a chance to improve.”

Big difference between film and TV. The average network TV episode costs $3 million to produce and generally has a story-to-air window of little over 4 weeks. STID has a budget of $190 million and took over 4 years from story-to-release. These guys are being paid handsomely enough and given more than adequate time to ensure they get it right — the stakes are simply too high not to. Can’t agree with you on this one, especially since they got a lot of things right in ST09.

947. Keachick - December 22, 2013

#941 – “So Keachick, would you care to explain again how people in New Zealand have no idea what a Soap Opera is???”

Golly gosh, I wish people would actually read what I wrote. I never wrote that people in NZ have no idea what a soap opera is. In fact, I wrote that I, as one NZer, DID know what a soap opera was.

What I do object to is that whenever I mention the possibility of a main character shown being involved with another person, people immediately throw the soap opera description at it in order to demean the idea, since it appears that many people here have a negative view of the “soap opera” and “rom com” genres. Then, in order to further derail a legitimate idea, others bring in names like “Two and a Half Men”, the Kardashians and terms like the “lowest common denominator”. Really? What in hell have any of this got to do with my proposals, which have to be written first and then get approval from the franchise owners anyway?

Then, as above, we get someone saying that they don’t want to see relationships if they are about (teenage) wish fulfillment type stuff. What does that even mean? All of the discussion here about the latest Star Trek film and ideas for the next movie has to do with WISH FULFILLMENT. Why some people seem so angry with the makers of these alternate universe Star Trek film iterations is because the makers have not fulfilled their own particular wishes, desires, fantasies these people have about “their” Star Trek. Movie making is all about wish fulfillment.

This is perhaps why Gene Roddenberry wanted to show what our possible human future could be, ie a bright one where people did behave naturally better towards one another which in turn would lead to a fairer socio-economic system (I doubt if GR knew exactly how that might be achieved, but everything starts with an idea, a wish, a will), where exploration of the stars, both near and far, was possible, not just for a few, but for many…

As for “common sense” – do you mean the kind of “common sense” that has been displayed on this site ever since the blink and you miss undies scene that has been the subject of hundreds of posts and tens of thousands of words which mostly object to the scene? I say “blink and you miss” scene because that is LITERALLY what happened when I first saw the trailer with that scene in it. I must have got momentarily distracted and so literally DID NOT SEE Carol/Alice as nature/nurture made her.

Common sense – really? LOL!

948. Keachick - December 22, 2013

Yes, Shortland Street is one of the most popular programmes on NZ television and it does fall into the soap opera category. However, I rarely watch – perhaps once or twice a year. This programme runs from Monday to Friday, on TV2 at 7.00pm, all throughout the year, except for Christmas/January when everybody who works on the show take their annual holidays over the summer period. The studio closes down.

It compares with other shows of a similar genre made in Australia and Britain, all of which I have watched on occasion. Personally, these shows are much more watchable than anything I have seen coming from the USA. I am sorry to say, but the soaps from your country are unbearable to watch and I think that when many people on this site who are from the US read my ideas and then see them referred to as being soap operaish, I suspect that many here think 90210, Days of our Lives etc. Sure, some of the episodes of Shortland St or Home and Away (Aus) can be similar, but a lot of the time, they tend to be a bit better.

It seems that Shortland St has created some controversy over time because of its subject matter. One of the first major controversies was way back in the 90’s when it introduced a gay paramedic. This was at the height of the fear and ignorance surrounding HIV/AIDS and homosexuality. The gay paramedic was played by none other than our own Karl Urban!

Then again, American soap opera were originally made on the cheap to keep bored audiences tuned so that SOAP powders etc could be advertised and viewers encouraged to buy such products…

949. MJ - December 22, 2013

Wrong again, CC. Look at the set of all the Trek movies up until 2009. About half were good, and half were not so good. So if JJ-Trek is batting .500 so far, that fits in right with the historical average.

In fact look at most any movie franchise and this 50% factor typically fits. James Bond, Pirates of the Caribbean, Star Wars, etc. etc.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

946. Curious Cadet – December 22, 2013
@945. Captain Slow,
“No one ever gets everything right first try so give them a chance to improve.”

Big difference between film and TV. The average network TV episode costs $3 million to produce and generally has a story-to-air window of little over 4 weeks. STID has a budget of $190 million and took over 4 years from story-to-release. These guys are being paid handsomely enough and given more than adequate time to ensure they get it right — the stakes are simply too high not to. Can’t agree with you on this one, especially since they got a lot of things right in ST09.

950. MJ - December 22, 2013

“Golly gosh, I wish people would actually read what I wrote. I never wrote that people in NZ have no idea what a soap opera is. In fact, I wrote that I, as one NZer, DID know what a soap opera was.”

But, Keachick, earlier you specifically said this:

“However, for those of us who live outside the USA, it has little or no meaning or relevance. Not everybody has developed television or the kind of programming style that you have in the USA.”

How can “Soap Opera” have little or no relevance or meaning in NZ if your most popular show in the past 20 years is a soap opera? And from reading the description of “Shortland Street,” it sounds like nearly exactly the same kind of USA soap opera production style of “General Hospital,” which was one of the most successful soap operas in the USA for years.

So if you want to retract all this — that is fine, but please just admit that to us and don’t try to “golly gosh” us all like me misunderstood you or something.

951. Ahmed - December 22, 2013

@948. MJ

“Wrong again, CC. Look at the set of all the Trek movies up until 2009. About half were good, and half were not so good. So if JJ-Trek is batting .500 so far, that fits in right with the historical average.”

Nope, the new Trek have bigger budget, a whole new timeline to play with & lot of time. The pre-JJ movies didn’t have any of that, they were made every 2 to 3 years with low budget & restricted by canon.

952. Ahmed - December 22, 2013

@950. MJ

“How can “Soap Opera” have little or no relevance or meaning in NZ if your most popular show in the past 20 years is a soap opera?”

lol, good question

953. Ahmed - December 22, 2013

@ 948. Keachick – December 22, 2013

“Personally, these shows are much more watchable than anything I have seen coming from the USA.”

Like what ?
I’n guessing that you don’t like American TV in general because it is too violent or too dark or too dumb for you!

954. Curious Cadet - December 22, 2013

@951 Ahmed,

Moreover, it’s comparing apples and oranges unless you look at the creative teams. Lets take a look using batting averages:

Roddenberry — TMP; .000
Meyer — TWOK, TVH, TUC; 1.000
Bennett — TWOK, TSFS, TVH, TFF, TUC; .800
Berman — GEN, FC, INS, NEM; .250

Comparing Orci & Abrams two films to the entire franchise, is like saying Orci and Abrams are as equal to Berman, Braga & Frakes, the team members responsible for most of the notoriously bad films, as they are to Meyer, Bennett and Nimoy, who are responsible for most of the hits.

955. MJ - December 22, 2013

@954

It’s the opinion of many that VI is mediocre and has not aged well. So Meyer should be .667 and Bennett should be at .600, when you factor this in.

Given Meyer and Bennett both have a sample size of 3 films, then ST 2016 will be the determining factor if JJ-Trek, with a sample size of 3 films, equals the .667.

So so far, JJ is still looking as good are Myer and Bennett as long at Trek 2016 gets back to the quality of Trek 2009.

956. MJ - December 22, 2013

“….sample size of AT LEAST 3 films….”

957. Keachick - December 22, 2013

Ahmed – You (deliberately?) misconstrue what I wrote. I was talking specifically about the soap opera genre, not about American TV in general.

Yes, I do like quite a lot of American television, even some of the more violent ones, because most of the time, they are well written, well acted and well made. There are some I have not/cannot watch like The Walking Dead – the trailers alone having me reaching for the remote…or the Sopranos and others, even though I know that they do constitute good television because of superior writing, acting and production values. I just don’t like the overall themes of these programmes – Yuk, as they say.

I have not seen General Hospital or maybe one or two episodes several years ago. Most US soap operas appear to deal only with extraordinarily spoiled, pathetic people with way too much of everything material and too little in the way of basic common sense and humility.

With other shows, like some of Home & Away, Shortland St, Eastenders, Emmerdale, they have characters who come from ordinary backgrounds who can be pains in the a&& at times but are also generally written more realistically.

I suppose that “soap opera” does have relevance and meaning in NZ also, however, the way that many soap operas are made outside the US tend to be more grounded and realistic.

As I wrote, we know how and why this particular television genre got the name “soap opera”, which brings me to the question of what purpose would the BBC (which allows for no commercial advertising whatsoever) make a series called “Eastenders”, which ostensibly falls into the category with the unfortunate title name of soap opera? Eastenders, at its best, was very watchable. I am sorry but that cannot be said of any of the US soaps.

958. Captain Slow - December 22, 2013

@ 947 Keachick

Dumbed down teenager wish fulfillment = underwear scene

Fannish wish fulfillment = Kirk and Carol getting married and leaving the ship

There are better choices available. I’m hoping that neither of these two ever see the light of day again.

@ 955 MJ

Harve Bennett didn’t work on TUC. He left because they wouldn’t let him do the prequel that he wanted.

959. Ahmed - December 22, 2013

@Matt Wright & Kayla Iacovino,

How come trekmovie never posted any recent articles about “Star Trek: Renegades” ?

A teaser & trailer were released in the past couple weeks & there was nothing at all about it on trekmovie !!

960. Phil - December 22, 2013

@959. Probably because it’s DOA….

961. Ahmed - December 22, 2013

@ 960. Phil – December 22, 2013

“Probably because it’s DOA….”

Maybe, the teaser didn’t look good, but other sties are posting about it.

962. Ahmed - December 22, 2013

typo, I meant sites

963. Curious Cadet - December 22, 2013

@958. Captain Slow,
“Harve Bennett didn’t work on TUC. He left because they wouldn’t let him do the prequel that he wanted.”

Thank you. I had forgotten that. So Bennett has a .750 batting average, and the only producer aside from Berman to produce four films in the series.

Of course, unlike Berman, Bennett had three hits in a row until TFF. Arguably Abrams likewise is in the same relative position as Bennett after TSFS.

Regardless, my point (which has nothing to do with Abrams Trek record) stands, as emphasized by Ahmed — there is no reason to give film producers a break based on TV standards. If a producer doesn’t deliver in film, they don’t get second chances. Roddenberry got pulled after TMP, Bennett walked away, but TUC was almost never made because of how badly TFF performed. And of course Berman was yanked after NEM. TV on the other hand is expected to take some time to get established and find an audience.

Your point seems to be that Orci & Abrams deserve a break because they are still finding their way (correct me if I misunderstand). However, they have absolutely no excuse for that defense. And no other filmmakers would be expected to get such a pass if they failed to produce a solid movie the first time out. The fact is, ST09 was a solid film. STID was not as strong and they took four years to deliver it. In my opinion, they have not earned a pass. In TV if they get it wrong one week, they have 22 more consecutive weeks to get it right. Following STID, it might be another 4 years before they deliver their next attempt. The stakes are very much higher then they are in TV.

964. dmduncan - December 22, 2013

955. MJ – December 22, 2013

@954

It’s the opinion of many that VI is mediocre and has not aged well.

***

Not mine! TWOK, TSFS, and TUC are my favorites of the original cast movies. I love TUC.

965. Red Dead Ryan - December 22, 2013

The trailer for “Star Trek Renegades” was utter crap. It simply isn’t worth writing an article about.

966. Ahmed - December 22, 2013

@ 965. Red Dead Ryan – December 22, 2013

“The trailer for “Star Trek Renegades” was utter crap. It simply isn’t worth writing an article about.”

Nevertheless it is a Star Trek project made by many Trek actors.

Beside if Takei cologne “Eau My” deserved an article then there is no reason ST:R shouldn’t get one as well when the teaser was released online.

967. MJ - December 22, 2013

“Your point seems to be that Orci & Abrams deserve a break because they are still finding their way (correct me if I misunderstand). However, they have absolutely no excuse for that defense.”

No, my point is that in these other comparisons you are making, the sample size is greater than two films. So if ST-2016 is as good as Trek 2009, then 2 out of 3 really great movies will put JJ up in Meyers/Bennett territory.

968. MJ - December 22, 2013

Star Trek Renegades sounds like a fan version of STID — Federation CIA-like operatives and dark plots. I think we have had enough of that for now. And do we really need to see more geriatric older TOS actors in somewhat embarrassing circumstances? I mean, that actor who played Apollo just looked tragic in that fan production last year — it was embarrassing.

969. MJ - December 22, 2013

“@ 955 MJ. Harve Bennett didn’t work on TUC. He left because they wouldn’t let him do the prequel that he wanted.”

That was Curious Cadet who stated that, not me.

970. MJ - December 22, 2013

Star Trek V is on BBC HD right now. God, not I remember why I did not buy the Blu-Ray or DVD. This is just suck a weakass flim, with uncomfortable and clumsy lines and performances, not to mention the horrid special effects.

They just showed steam jets coming out of the shuttle craft — wtf???

971. MJ - December 22, 2013

OMG, the fat Uhura singing in front of the moon scene is on right now…..Scotty, please beam me out of this movie!!!

972. MJ - December 22, 2013

..and now all the natives with guns that look like plastic PVC pipe props that I glued together in my basement.

…and now Spock nerve pinching a horse in this stupid Vegas-like set, and Kirk tossing a fat alien lady into a tub….

I can’t take any more of this…SWITCHING CHANNELS IMMEDIATELY…..

973. dmduncan - December 22, 2013

Watching TFF. I’m prepared to say this is the worst EPISODE of Star Trek ever filmed. Love the long crimped hair on that Klingon. He looks like a Motley Crue roadie.

974. dmduncan - December 22, 2013

Roger CORMAN would be embarrassed by these SPFX.

975. dmduncan - December 22, 2013

“That’s all I can stands cause I can’t stands no more!”

Switching to TSFS on VH1.

976. Phil - December 22, 2013

Am I the only one who refuses to move Generations up from the bottom of my ‘best to worst’ list?

977. Phil - December 22, 2013

Renegades is more Trek wish fulfillment fan fantasy. Why should it be taken seriously because a couple of out-of-work Trek actors lent their smiling faces to the project to give it some legitimacy?

978. Phil - December 22, 2013

@961. Okay, so other sites are posting about it. This site is largely on autopilot these days, and Matt is entertaining the idea of poster submitted articles. Write something up about it, send it in, and see what happens.

I’ve commented on missing the science stuff that’s loosely Trek related. While I’ve entertained the idea of writing about it, it’s obviously not that high on my to-do list. I’ll do that if you turn in a Renegades story….unless Matt says don’t bother.

979. MJ - December 22, 2013

@973 “Watching TFF. I’m prepared to say this is the worst EPISODE of Star Trek ever filmed. Love the long crimped hair on that Klingon. He looks like a Motley Crue roadie.”

The only thing comparable is And the Children Shall Lead. I almost get ill watching that episode.

I mean, at least Spocks Brain and The Way to Eden had some bit of charm to them.

980. Phil - December 22, 2013

The Way to Eden could just have easily been titled “Damn Hippies”…they didn’t even try to hard to disguise that it was a slam on counterculture. The morality play aspect of the script had all the subtlety of the sledge hammer in a china shop. You idiot hippies found your Eden….and it’s TOXIC!! Serves you right…

981. MJ - December 22, 2013

@980

But I still love those corny songs from that episode, plus I love how Spock kind of relates a bit to the hippies.

982. Red Dead Ryan - December 22, 2013

I agree that TFF is utter indefensible crap. That movie should not have been made. TUC is an okay movie, not great. TWOK and TSFS are easily the best of the TOS films.

983. Marja - December 23, 2013

941 DiscoSpock, And ‘Shortland Street’ featured a very young Karl Urban! Karl had so much hair in those days he looked like he was wearing a big ol’ hat!

You must admit that Rose has a point though. Many of our posts reflect wish fulfillment: How STiD/ST2009 failed to or succeeded in fulfilling our wishes for Star Trek movies.
———————————-
942 dmduncan, I get your point now (I think). My larger point regarding these discussions is that most people see the world through their individual point of view, and it’s often not very sensible at all. In the “reality” of some folks, “an apocalypse is imminent” or “the End Times are coming” or “Pleiadians will save us from the evil Grays.” Peoples’ views on Trek are small potatoes when it comes to world events, and what some people believe is scary indeed.
————————————
944 MJ, I second that. I think the writers often use Uhura as the “emotional focal point” in scenes, so she’s weepy and so on. Zaldana does a lovely job making these moments as real for us as possible, but it makes the character appear weak and to some folks, unprofessional.

I don’t care what folks say, even being a professional, if I were listening to my husband’s last words coming over the speakers where I stood on the Bridge, there would be tears in my eyes. Yes, I’d do my job, but I’d have to dash my tears away. Re: that regrettable Mudd Shuttle scene, well, S&U’s conversation should have been in private [again, I think JJ asked the writers to telescope that scene into the traveling scene to denote the passage of time]. But on the good side, character-wise, it also served as a mark of Spock’s devotion that he’d make publicly clear how much he esteems Uhura.

And I loved Uhura’s strong scene with the Klingons. She’s a brave lady, and quick-thinking too.
———————————–

984. Phil - December 23, 2013

The on going adventures of GoGo and DiDi…

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/power-players-abc-news/sirs-in-the-city-ian-mckellen-and-patrick-stewart-appear-on-broadway-and-around-new-york-city-131339151.html?vp=1

985. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

983. Marja – December 23, 2013

The more unclear things are, the more room there is for different interpretation, and the more viewers conflate what they are thinking with what they are seeing, the more they may disagree about what they think they see.

But some things are just not that complicated, and some people still want to give the matter of settling them epic proportions for whatever reason, and in my experience the reason is usually that they don’t want to lose an argument because they don’t want to have to change—either the way they think (their minds), or their plans.

We can have fun interpreting things any way we want, and one interpretation may be as fair to make as another, but when someone is claiming that something is there that isn’t there, then it’s soundly answerable.

986. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 23, 2013

933 Marja. That video alone should convince ANYBODY.

A couple things struck me about that video since otheres seem to be too worrired about who will find out if they click that link.

The taxi cab driver seemed to be overtly lying about what went on in front of the Pentagon. How his cab was hit, the silent stranger who “helped him remove it from his windshield,” And his wife worked right there, too? How convenient.

And of course the FOUR police officers that gave their testimony onscreen were all unaimous about what side of the Citgo that they saw that plane come in. This seems to eliminate how the light poles were struck. But I’d really like to have Dennis Bailley comment on that.

This seems to complicate the official 911 timeline. I am sure you and others will certainly agree.

987. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

TUC is my favorite of the old movies. Was watching it again last night, and I was struck by two things: How cool it was to score Christopher Plumber, and also how cool it was to get a sense of what life is like aboard the Enterprise.

More than any other movie, the TUC story happened while the characters in it were living their lives—Spock drinking with Valeris in a scene that had some very interesting symbolism, the scene in the galley, scenes in the general crew quarters, Sulu being awakened in his quarters, Kirk trying to relax in his bunk when something odd happens, Scotty making a discovery while trying to cozy up with some schematics. The dinner where each member of the crew has to deal with the real problem of their true feelings.

It feels like a future “period” who-dunnit “piece.”

Sure—there are oddball things that happen here and there. The veridium patch Spock surreptitiously puts on Kirk’s shoulder that was so large it might as well have had a spinning red light and siren on it, Kirk’s springboard leap in the end which he could not have pulled off in his prime, the obvious attempt to give every actor something to do for their final Star Trek movie. But those things were not enough to ruin what was a solid and engaging story.

TUC is what I would call Star Trek’s most charming movie.

988. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

984. Phil – December 23, 2013

Aaah. That make me miss NYC, which is quite a pleasant place to be this time of year.

989. Michael Hall - December 23, 2013

“TUC is my favorite of the old movies. “

Totally agree. In terms of its qualities as cinema I think it’s far-and-away superior to any of the other films–the score, cinematography, plotting, and characterizations are all of a piece in what is essentially a modern conspiracy thriller primarily set on submarines. Very little in the way of fan service–i.e., pandering–was allowed to get in the way of telling the story. The world-weary cast (including the Enterprise itself) is like a fine-tuned watch that’s been around the block too many times, and Plummer’s awesomely hammy performance gives even Bill Shatner a fair run for his money. Not to mention Gorkon’s assassination, the courtroom scene, and the final space battle over Khitomer–three of the very best set-pieces in all of Star Trek history.

Again, those are TUC’s undeniable qualities as cinema. As an example of Gene Roddenberry’s Star Trek I have considerable reservations, and can certainly understand why he was so unhappy after seeing it. That being said, it was an honorable swan song for the TOS cast.

990. MJ - December 23, 2013

I still cringe when I hear spock say, “only Nixon could go to China.” Why in the hell would Spock be making a reference to that given it is so same out of date by then??? It looks dated even now.

991. Ahmed - December 23, 2013

@990. MJ

“I still cringe when I hear spock say, “only Nixon could go to China.” Why in the hell would Spock be making a reference to that given it is so same out of date by then?”

Because he was a republican :)

992. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

990. MJ – December 23, 2013

Have to disagree with you on that one. Didn’t strike me as dated at all. Quite the opposite. The Nixon reference wasn’t even from something current. Nixon’s trip to China was almost 20 years old by the time a reference to it appeared in TUC—long enough for a couple generations of Star Trek fans to know little or nothing about what it even meant.

But every one of the Star Treks has little things you can pick on, but none of them in TUC spoils the movie because it’s so strong. Even making Kirk’s age and obvious readiness for retirement worked.

I agree with Michael here. TUC is a real MOVIE…that happens to be Star Trek. It reminded me of one of those old Hollywood film noirs—Double Indemnity comes to mind—that creates a real sense of what the world is like to live in where the story is set.

Being that it’s set in the future and not just filmed on location in the past, that’s a pretty sweet vibe to get.

993. Keachick - December 23, 2013

So having characters act out of character is good because it is not “pandering to fans”?

TUC showed Spock behaving in a manner which he would not have done – pre-empting Kirk’s expression of opinion. He did it twice. The behaviour of the bridge crew towards their Klingon guests was ignorant, dreadful and quite ridiculous. Comments like “See how they ate…” were pathetic. These comments were coming from well-seasoned, experienced crew who would surely know about the various cultures re what would be considered socially acceptable dining behaviour for them. Even here on earth now, eating with one hands is considered sensible and acceptable in some places. As a Tibetan once said, “Why would you need a knife and fork when you have ten fingers?”. The writers had these characters behaving like ignorant bratty 12 year olds.

TUC was a by and large a good movie, but there are parts of that film that really stick in my craw – grief!

994. Curious Cadet - December 23, 2013

@987. dmduncan,
“TUC is my favorite of the old movies.”

Absolutely agree it was a great film, if not necessarily my favorite.

In many ways it reminded me of a classic TOS episode. I suspect it did not do as well at the box office as TWOK, TSFS & TVH, if for no other reason than TFF had ruined Trek for all those casual movie goers for whom TVH attracted them in the first place.

There wasn’t much subtle about it, but it was a good old fashioned morality tale in typical Trek fashion, that had the characters we identified with show us our own prejudices which we often fail to realize exist. “Errand of Mercy” shows us exactly this! How long did it take us to weed out the “evil Russian” from our vocabulary? Kids today don’t know what a menace the Soviet Union was for anyone born before 1980, and how we lived under the threat of “Global Thermonuclear War” on a daily basis. Absolutely right about Nixon and China — how many adages from 300 years ago do we use casually today without knowing their origins?

The writing was smart and above par, and marked the third film in a row for Nicolas Meyer who knocked it out of the ball park each time batting 1.000. It really is a great example of a solid film which quality is debatable because of budget and failure to pander to Trek canon logic. Many of the mistakes in TUC are the kinds of mistakes that the Abrams films make, and similarly should be forgiven, whether they are also debated civilly or not. It also includes a number of blatant homages for the fans, just like the Abrams films, and which are no more corny.

Obviously the parallels between STID and TUC are many and similar. Indeed, one might say that the Supreme court looked at the best movies in the TOS franchise and found a way to merge the best parts into one new sequel.

995. Vultan - December 23, 2013

Yep, I agree with you guys. TUC is one of the better films. A bit of a slog to sit through the Rura Penthe stuff once you’ve seen it several times, but thankfully it comes roaring back to life in the third act. And aside from the great Shakespeare quoting marathon from Chang, I really like the references to Nixon, Gorbachev, and Adlai Stevenson sprinkled throughout the story. “Don’t wait for the translation! Answer me now!”

1991 saw the end of the Soviet Empire, and in many ways TUC serves as a retrospective to the Cold War. TOS was created in that climate, made numerous commentaries on it, and so it makes sense for them to end it that way.

996. MJ - December 23, 2013

@987 “TUC is my favorite of the old movies. Was watching it again last night, and I was struck by two things: How cool it was to score Christopher Plumber, and also how cool it was to get a sense of what life is like aboard the Enterprise.”

Plumber was good given the script he was dealt with. But, come on, a Klingon captain constantly quoting Shakespeare and screaming it out in battle. That seemed iffy to me then at the time, but given I was so happy to see decent Trek after the STV nightmare, I overlooked it then. Now, with the passage of time, I cringe at those scenes — like the Nixon remark, it takes me out of the movie and the 23rd century — it’s very distracting.

Meyer’s treatment of Shakespeare was so much more subtle and refined in WOK. It’s more like a hammer in TUC. Meyer took the easy route and just slammed in Shakespeare word for word instead of giving us more analogies and depth to it, like he did in WOK. It was fast-food Shakespeare.

997. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

993. Keachick – December 23, 2013

Really? Spock would never do that? Context isn’t important, he just wouldn’t do it under any circumstances. It doesn’t matter that he’s ending his Starfleet career and beginning a diplomatic one. He just would never ever do it, period. He would be as un-presuming at the end of his career and after a 30 year friendship to Kirk as he was on their first mission together in TOS.

Same for the crew. They’ve just spent a career by and large treating Klingons as the enemy. They could not POSSIBLY have concealed any prejudice or bigotry after what they’ve experienced.

Got it.

998. MJ - December 23, 2013

“Don’t wait for the translation! Answer me now!”

Certainly entertaining. But why in the hell would a Klingon in the 23rd Century be quoting that? Again, that line took me out of the movie — it was just silly, like an inside joke.

Kruge in TSFS — there is an Klingon done right. They didn’t need to give him human history lines, and he was uncompromisingly Klingon — unpredictible, cunning, with dark humor and damn mean in battle . He was real Klingon, unlike the Soviet-like-fake-Klingons with British voices quoting Shakespeare in TUC.

999. MJ - December 23, 2013

@993

“TUC showed Spock behaving in a manner which he would not have done – pre-empting Kirk’s expression of opinion. He did it twice. The behaviour of the bridge crew towards their Klingon guests was ignorant, dreadful and quite ridiculous. Comments like “See how they ate…” were pathetic. These comments were coming from well-seasoned, experienced crew who would surely know about the various cultures re what would be considered socially acceptable dining behaviour for them.”

I agree completely. And like I said, as time passes, these parts of the movie bother me more and more.

1000. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

994. Curious Cadet – December 23, 2013

Well the “swan song” stuff was obviously for fans, but I’m not sure that it was obviously that to non fans.

Would Uhura and Scotty come running to the galley after Valeris fires the phaser that sets off the alarm?

Probably not.

Would general audiences ask themselves why Uhura and Scotty ran to the galley?

Probably not.

So even those things were artfully done, which makes it good as a movie as opposed to good as a Star Trek movie.

1001. MJ - December 23, 2013

“A bit of a slog to sit through the Rura Penthe stuff once you’ve seen it several times,”

Yea, the prison scenes look rather silly now. Again the non-subtle Meyer hammer — THIS IS A SOVIET GULAG. Yea, I got that, Meyer. Sheesh!

1002. Vultan - December 23, 2013

#997

Exactly. It was an inside joke.

As for why a Klingon would be obsessed with Earth culture, I don’t know. Perhaps he studied his enemy a little TOO much. But as silly jokes go, I’ll take it any day over… say… boyfriend and girlfriend issues or swollen hands or Klingon pimples.

1003. Vultan - December 23, 2013

Oh, Star Trek, bless it, has rarely been subtle.

1004. MJ - December 23, 2013

Even the weightless scene in the Klingon ship didn’t seem right to me. On every single TOS episodes and movies, that have never happened before, so you assume that that technology is pretty much “solid state” and never goes awry. Yet all of a sudden in this movie, they use it as a plot device?

1005. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

Oh I loved the prison scenes. Kirk, old as he is, laying there in his bunk and showing that he still has the plasticity of mind to reflect on and change it? That is what Trek is about. Being young in your heart and always able to see things from a fresh perspective rather than rest in your prejudices with grumpy old man syndrome.

And man! The on-location stuff in Denali was truly amazing. Not even ST.09’s Delta Vega stuff rivaled it.

1006. MJ - December 23, 2013

“Same for the crew. They’ve just spent a career by and large treating Klingons as the enemy. They could not POSSIBLY have concealed any prejudice or bigotry after what they’ve experienced.”

Kirk certainly did not show any of that racism at the end of ST-III. He both offered a hand to save Kruge, and then treated the remaining crew-member fairly. Nor did he show any racism or asinine behavior against that Klingon Captain in STV. So in his last two interactions with Klingons before TUC, there is nothing to suggest this trend of prejudice which manifested itself ?

This prejudice is an artificial element that Meyer brought in to serve his story. The Kirk and crew I knew before TUC would not have behaved like that. It’s canon, so I grudgingly accept it, but I don’t have to agree with it or like it given it was completely uncharacteristic for or crew to behave in that manner…just like Shakespeare quoting Klingons who act like Soviets. :-)

1007. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

1005. MJ – December 23, 2013

Well, I won’t use anything in TFF to make any points at all. The only scene in that movie I liked was between McCoy and his father. Nothing else.

As far as TSFS—that’s perfectly consistent with Kirk in TUC, but we don’t even need to go back that far. In TUC it is Kirk who invites the Klingons aboard the Enterprise for dinner despite his own bigotry. So he clearly knows the “right” way to act despite his personal feelings.

Yeah, he offers to save Kruge, which is the compassionate thing to do to someone who is in danger of falling into a lake of fire, even when he is your enemy.

And then Kirk kicks him in the face and Kruge falls to his death.

The varieties of responses Kirk has makes him seem more like a real person who is balancing all the different roles he has to play and emotions that he feels.

1008. Curious Cadet - December 23, 2013

@996. dmduncan,
“They’ve just spent a career by and large treating Klingons as the enemy. They could not POSSIBLY have concealed any prejudice or bigotry after what they’ve experienced.”

EXACTLY! Kirk’s very life depended on him playing the peaceful shepherd of an Organian citizen in Errand of Mercy. Yet he could NOT contain himself, undermining every aspect of the ruse he was attempting to perpetrate and virtually assuring Spock’s torture and death.

Yeah, there’s no basis in canon for Kirk’s behavior in TUC, none at all.

1009. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

I thought TUC was brilliant in its approach. At one time or another we’ve seen Kirk save everyone from everything. He’s been there done that so many times.

In TUC, at the end of his career, it was more local and original. This time Kirk has to save himself from himself.

(And THEN save everyone else!)

1010. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

1007. Curious Cadet – December 23, 2013

Well sure. If you go back through TOS you can definitely find roots for Kirk’s behavior in TUC in both Errand of Mercy and A Private Little War.

1011. MJ - December 23, 2013

“And then Kirk kicks him in the face and Kruge falls to his death.”

Yea, but come on, that’s after Kruge refuses and instead tries to pull Kirk off the cliff.

I like the fact that you are bring up Kruge though — he was a “real Klingon,” not one of the “fake Soviet-Shakespeare Klingons” from TUC. :-)

“Well sure. If you go back through TOS you can definitely find roots for Kirk’s behavior in TUC in both Errand of Mercy and A Private Little War.”

But again, I am talking about the two more recent interactions — in ST3 and Star Trek 5.

1012. Michael Hall - December 23, 2013

*Sigh* Not to speak for anyone else (and dmduncan is certainly capable of speaking eloquently for himself), but if the point was to state that the crew’s prejudice against Klingons in TUC was over-the-top, or that the galley on the Enterprise was anachronistic, or that Valeris was uncharacteristically ruthless for a Vulcan, or one of a hundred other complaints. . . well, in fact I don’t disagree at all, and apparently you missed my point about THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY being a great film, but questionable Star Trek. Lots of things bothered me about it at the time, and still do. But few of them have anything to do with its qualities as film.

OTOH, criticisms about Nixon going to China, artificial gravity failures, Spock’s pre-empting Kirk in conversation, and other such oddities ring a little hollow coming from those who stalwartly defended Mickey Mouse hands, Spock’s jettisoning a crewman to a hostile ice-planet–and likely, death–just for the crime of being an asshole, and Kirk’s amazing leapfrog promotion. It may or may not make sense for an alien in the 23rd century to use a metaphor about Nixon going to China, but it doesn’t strike me as any more weird or unreasonable than Khan’s knowledge of Klingon proverbs (which are actually probably English or French), or that it would be considered an insult on Vulcan to refer to a schoolmate’s mother as a “human whore.”

1013. Vultan - December 23, 2013

Why was it the first time they did a ship losing gravity in TUC? My guess is a combination of previous budget/special effects restraints stopped them from going there, and wanting to give us something NEW. I won’t fault them for that.

1014. MJ - December 23, 2013

Maybe it’s just me, but by the end of his career, I don’t think Kirk has a racist or prejudiced bone in his body. And I think all the TOS movies up until TUC support this view.

1015. MJ - December 23, 2013

“Why was it the first time they did a ship losing gravity in TUC? My guess is a combination of previous budget/special effects restraints stopped them from going there, and wanting to give us something NEW. I won’t fault them for that.”

You man kind of like transwarp transporters. :-(

1016. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

1012. MJ – December 23, 2013

Well I think until Spock volunteers him for a situation where he has to confront it, Kirk never has to grapple with his prejudices about Klingons. The TUC plot was the first time that happens.

And to me at least Kirk seems for the first time a more realistic hero. Like a true champion he overcomes his foibles.

1017. Curious Cadet - December 23, 2013

@1008. dmduncan,
“I thought TUC was brilliant in its approach.”

In many respects STID was TUC with a much bigger budget at an earlier point in the crew’s lives — without all the baggage they were carrying at the end of their career.

In fact, by making Harrison Khan, they probably missed an excellent opportunity to create the kind of villain the Joker was to Batman, if in fact that’s what they set out to do.

1018. MJ - December 23, 2013

@1012

“..if the point was to state that the crew’s prejudice against Klingons in TUC was over-the-top, or that the galley on the Enterprise was anachronistic, or that Valeris was uncharacteristically ruthless for a Vulcan, or one of a hundred other complaints. . . well, in fact I don’t disagree at all… Lots of things bothered me about it at the time, and still do.”

Well said!

1019. Vultan - December 23, 2013

I can’t defend inconsistencies in Trek. Frankly there’s too many to discuss; it would crash this site!

Interesting though, they did pretty much the same thing in TUC with Kirk and his Klingon hangups later with Picard and the Borg in FC. I can see how both could be seen as inconsistent. Then of course, both men had never quite been in those situations before.

Either way, I enjoy both those flicks despite their flaws.

1020. Red Dead Ryan - December 23, 2013

I agree that the Rura Penthe scenes were boring. I also agree that the Shakespeare quotes were a bit much, and made the movie a bit cheesy.

Also, William Shatner seemed tired and lacking energy in the movie. Most of the rest of the cast looked like they were ready to move on.

I really liked how Chancellor Gorkon was written and portrayed. The Lincoln angle was well played. Christopher Plummer was great, but again, the Shakespeare stuff was too much.

TUC was a better movie back in 1991. The movie gets more dated as the years go on, something that can’t be said of either TWOK or TSFS.

The soundtrack is great. The opening theme is quite powerful and dramatic.

1021. Red Dead Ryan - December 23, 2013

I agree that the Rura Penthe scenes were boring. I also agree that the Shakespeare quotes were a bit much, and made the movie a bit cheesy.

Also, William Shatner seemed tired and lacking energy in the movie. Most of the rest of the cast looked like they were ready to move on.

I really liked how Chancellor Gorkon was written and portrayed. The Lincoln angle was well played. Christopher Plummer was great, but again, the Shakespeare stuff was too much.

TUC was a better movie back in 1991. The movie gets more dated as the years go on, something that can’t be said of either TWOK or TSFS.

The soundtrack is great. The opening theme is quite powerful and dramatic.

1022. Vultan - December 23, 2013

Now that we’ve aired our grievances, let me say Happy Festivus and Merry Christmas, you guys!

Have a good one.

1023. MJ - December 23, 2013

“In many respects STID was TUC with a much bigger budget at an earlier point in the crew’s lives — without all the baggage they were carrying at the end of their career.”

CC, you surprise me here with a very insightful comment. I agree!

1024. MJ - December 23, 2013

@1022. Thanks Vultan.

May you and others here have a joyful, Undiscovered Christmas, and may your New Year’s resolutions not descend Into Darkness by mid-January. And for or those you travelling over the holidays, I wish you each a safe Voyage Home.

:-)

1025. DiscoSpock - December 23, 2013

The main issue I have with Star Trek VI is that the Klingons simply were not believable. They behaved pretty much like Cold War Russians, and I found frankly very little alien about them. Some of them even talked like Russians,and the prison stuff was obviously supposed to be like a Siberia prison in Russia.

Those weren’t/aren’t the Klingons I’m familiar with in Star Trek. It was like having “guest Klingons” so that they could do a Star Trek Cold War analogy movie.

1026. DiscoSpock - December 23, 2013

Matt, why is my post on ST VI not getting accepted? Thanks

1027. Red Dead Ryan - December 23, 2013

Whoops, sorry for double post.

1028. Vultan - December 23, 2013

#1024

Ha, very good, MJ!
To you as well.

1029. dswynne - December 23, 2013

@1011 (MJ): I disagree with your assessment over how the Klingons were depicted in TUC. Kruge was clearly a field commander, while Chang was a politician besides being a military officer. Besides, in today’s military, many flag officers have advanced degrees. Heck, men like Abizaid, Patraeus, Powell and others did things besides having field command experience, including attending the American War College to study history and tactics of not just American soldiers, but also the militaries of other nations throughout history. And I am sure that other nations have their own military academies and “war colleges” that do the same. Ergo, I don’t see how Chang being familiar with Earth’s culture and history is out of the norm, especially since, as the Klingons would put it, the Federation is dominated by humans from Earth. In other words, to study an enemy is to know an enemy, and what is the best way to study humans? Arts and literature within human society from a historical and political perspective. Chang failed to realized that, even though Kirk had prejudices, especially over the death of his son David (a PACIFIST), he was willing to move beyond the conventional for a chance at lasting peace, for his son’s sake. And, in the end, isn’t that what Star Trek is all about? To be able to take that step into the unknown? So while I can understand Roddenberry’s criticism on how Kirk and company were depicted, I can understand the subtext of TUC vis-a-vis the ending of the Cold War between the West and the Soviets, as both traditional enemies are willing to take a chance at a lasting peace.

But, as always, that’s in my opinion, of course…

1030. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

1024. MJ – December 23, 2013

Hehehe! Good one.

1031. MJ - December 23, 2013

“…even though Kirk had prejudices, especially over the death of his son David (a PACIFIST)…”

Again though, how Kirk interacts with Klingons at the end of Trek III, and again in Trek V, shows that there is no prejudicial trend of Kirks towards Klingons…nor does his crew show this prejudicial trend.

The prejudice by Kirk and the crew in TUC is an artificial construction created by Meyer to tell his Cold War allegory story….it is not supported at all by Kirk’s and his crew’s behavior towards Klingons in the 12 years of TOS star Trek movies that preceded it. It just shows up in TUC, and all of a sudden, were are supposed to buy into it. I never did, although I was more accepting of it back then since TUC was so much better than the horrid V.

1032. Ahmed - December 23, 2013

1024. MJ

lol, very nice

Happy holidays, everyone :)

1033. Vultan - December 23, 2013

Oh yeah, one more thing…

I agree with MJ’s assessment that Kruge was a Klingon done right. He was cunning and intelligent and well-played by Lloyd. But after watching TSFS recently, I noticed… why doesn’t he just beam up Savvik, David and young Spock to the Bird of Prey once they detect them?

Surely, Shirley, the ridge heads aren’t the pain-in-the-rear sticklers for contamination protocol that Captain By-the-Book was, yes?

I don’t know. Just something I noticed. And seeing as how it took me… maybe thirty-something viewings before I did notice it doesn’t say a lot for me!

1034. dmduncan - December 23, 2013

Yeah it’s not a leap. Kirk lost his son and he’s had some time to stew in his feelings since the end of TSFS. He even references that as a reason for his anger. Kirk’s animosity towards Klingons is clearly evident in past episodes, so TUC just resurrects and builds on what we’ve seen before.

Kirk already has the seed of bigotry. Meyer just sprinkled on some water and made him deal with the blooms.

And thank God he ignored the control of Gene Roddenberry’s stultified hand at the time; it gave us a fitting end to the crew’s voyages.

So I agree with Meyer and disagree with Gene Roddenberry who, at the time he saw TUC, had already changed Star Trek into what it became in TNG.

As for being “dated,” I just don’t know what to make of that claim. When I think dated, I think 1950’s visions of what the 21st century would be like. Flying cars, jet packs, and automatic kitchens with robotic smiling wives pushing buttons.

There’s nothing in TUC that strikes me that way. The Nixon stuff doesn’t date it anymore than Shakespeare does, the latter of which Star Trek had used before. Star Trek has always had a love affair with using the classics, whether it be Brahms, DaVinci, Milton, Chagall, or what have you.

So to me, TUC is no more dated than TOS which was heavily influenced by Mid Century Modern design, and which tackled the subjects of its time. I’ve never been a fan of Meyer’s design sensibilities, and do agree with Roddenberry on the militarism of Meyer’s uniform designs, but the truth is those aging actors couldn’t have done those Theiss designs justice anymore, so Meyer’s choices were probably for the best.

So whatever you guys mean by dated, maybe it’s not a bad thing.

If the Mid Century Modern feel of TOS is dated, then all that means to me is that some “dates” are so timeless that they are worth revisiting forever.

1035. Michael Hall - December 23, 2013

Love Christopher Lloyd, but personally always thought that Kruge was a something of a doofus. I once saw a comedian do a spot-on impression of Lloyd as Kruge by way of Reverend Jim Ignatowsky, which was just frakkin hilarious.

1036. Red Dead Ryan - December 23, 2013

#1034.

“Love Christopher Lloyd, but personally always thought that Kruge was a something of a doofus. I once saw a comedian do a spot-on impression of Lloyd as Kruge by way of Reverend Jim Ignatowsky, which was just frakkin hilarious.”

Not sure how you think Kruge is a doofus? He was cunning, dangerous, strong, and downright intimidating. He sure knew how to push everyone’s buttons. ;-)

If you want “doofus Klingons”, look no further than Klaa and Vixxis from “The Final Frontier”. Or Lursa and B’etor from “The Next Generation”. Those guys and gals made a punchline out of the Klingons.

The best Klingons, IMHO, were Kor, Kang, Koloth, Worf (TNG), Chang, Martok, Gorkon, Kruge. Everyone else was pretty much cut-and-paste.

The Klingons from “Star Trek Into Darkness” were “meh”. They looked cool, though.

1037. Michael Hall - December 23, 2013

“And to me at least Kirk seems for the first time a more realistic hero. Like a true champion he overcomes his foibles.”

Well. . . in truth, the story of ‘Kirk overcomes his prejudices’ was featured in just about every script Gene L. Coon wrote that featured the character. Just as Kirk’s line about “never having faced death” before TWOK also was more hype than history; those developments for Kirk may have been new to Nick Meyer, but they weren’t to anyone with even a passing familiarity with TOS.

That said, he certainly did well with his own take on those things.

1038. Michael Hall - December 23, 2013

“Not sure how you think Kruge is a doofus? He was cunning, dangerous, strong, and downright intimidating. He sure knew how to push everyone’s buttons.”

Kruge was nothing but a thug, with none of the dignity of Kor, the charm or fun of Koloth, or the intensity of Kang. (All choices you made that I agree with.) The Trek V villains, like most of the movie, were awful. If memory serves Lursa and B’etor worked okay for the original TNG episode they were featured in but quickly wore out their welcome.

The fact that Kruge never got to speak a word that didn’t underline his e-vull intentions in six different ways, and that he insisted on keeping his pet lizard on the bridge of his ship, didn’t help matters much.

1039. Red Dead Ryan - December 23, 2013

Kruge might be a thug, he’s damn entertaining. He had some good lines, and proved to be a real menace. And I think that Christopher Lloyd’s performance upped Shatner’s game as well.

And no, it wasn’t a pet lizard. It was a targ, a dog-like animal he kept on the bridge, possibly to keep his officers in line.

1040. Jonboc - December 23, 2013

Love Kruge…Trek 3 had one of the best “boy, that Klingon is a real son-of-a-bitch” moments when Kirk and Kuge first meet.

Kirk: You should take the Vulcan.
Kruge: No.
Kirk: But why?
Kruge: Because you wish it!

Now THAT is a true Klingon. Lol

1041. Vultan - December 23, 2013

Lots of good lines from the Kruge man.
My favorites:

“Say the wrong thing, Torg!”

“Then I hope pain’s something you enjoy.”

His little sarcastic vision of a new Federation world, followed with: “Charming.”

1042. K-7 - December 23, 2013

@1037

Kruge was the most quintessential Klingon of all time — no one else comes even close.

That is what a Klingon should be like.

1043. Michael Hall - December 23, 2013

Well, it looked like a lizard to me. (And I thought the Targ made its first appearance as Worf’s pet on TNG, but whatever.)

The Kruge dialogue quoted actually strikes me as pretty dumb, but if y’all think it’s cool then by all means, enjoy. :-)

1044. Keachick - December 23, 2013

#1012 – “Spock’s pre-empting Kirk in conversation, and other such oddities ring a little hollow coming from those who stalwartly defended Mickey Mouse hands,”

What? I had no problem with the alternate Kirk being shown having an allergic reaction to the vaccination Dr McCoy had given him. Spock pre-empting Kirk’s own expression was a sticking point with me and I do not “ring hollow” because I’ve had no problem with Kirk having large hands. These are quite different situations.

You may describe the hands as Mickey Mouse and no doubt might have described my oversized foot, which looked pretty much like those hands – for real, as a bit Mickey Mousey. My foot blew up to three times its size as a result of bee sting so I do know about how allergic reactions can manifest. Kirk’s hands appeared realistic.

At no time can I recall any Star Trek movie or episode coming with canned laughter, which tells the audience that this or that scene is funny and that they are supposed to laugh – Hahaha…Therefore, if people found the scene funny, then that is how it looked to them; if others were irritated, then that is how the scene appeared.

I do not fully understand the criticism of the swollen hands scene. The impression I have is that people seem a bit impatient as well as rather ignorant of allergic reactions and in this case, of previous canon re Kirk’s unusual reaction to some medications.

1045. Red Dead Ryan - December 23, 2013

#1041.

“Kruge was the most quintessential Klingon of all time — no one else comes even close.

That is what a Klingon should be like.”

Yup!

1046. K-7 - December 23, 2013

@1043

“You may describe the hands as Mickey Mouse and no doubt might have described my oversized foot, which looked pretty much like those hands – for real, as a bit Mickey Mousey. My foot blew up to three times its size as a result of bee sting so I do know about how allergic reactions can manifest. Kirk’s hands appeared realistic.”

Yea, I’ve seen a hand that big for an allergic reaction myself — on my Dad years ago, from a Spider bite. That was completely realistic.

1047. Vultan - December 23, 2013

#1043

Yes, and I don’t understand the criticism leveled at Scotty bumping his head in Final Frontier. Workplace accidents are serious, and people are rather ignorant for laughing or booing such a scene.

Swollen allergy hands and a bump on the head—they’re both brilliant for bringing awareness of these problems to a wider audience.

Star Trek at its social commentary best.

1048. Keachick - December 23, 2013

I would like to extend my best wishes at this time as well.

It is now 6.52pm 24 December so it won’t be long before Santa makes his way down our non-existent chimney, but ’tis the time of magic…:)

My daughter has ensured that I have got him his gingernuts, milk and carrot for the reindeer, so all should be well.

It is cold meats and salad in these parts given that it is summer here downunder.

I drive by a sign that says “Remember the reason for the season”. Well, there are more than one reason why people celebrate at this time of year upover, ie the Northern Hemisphere. For me, one reason is because this great guy called Jesus was supposed to have been born round about now a couple of thousand years ago. The other is because up north, where my ancestors come from, this time was when people took time out to come together with one another, eat well and keep warm as they looked forward to days which would become longer and warmer. Here we celebrate sunny days, fun times at the beach etc.

Anyway, whatever one’s beliefs might be – to everyone –

Take care and have a good one!

1049. Red Dead Ryan - December 23, 2013

#1046.

“Yes, and I don’t understand the criticism leveled at Scotty bumping his head in Final Frontier. Workplace accidents are serious, and people are rather ignorant for laughing or booing such a scene.

Swollen allergy hands and a bump on the head—they’re both brilliant for bringing awareness of these problems to a wider audience.

Star Trek at its social commentary best.”

Actually, those scenes were written as comedy moments. It’s pretty obvious given how the scenes played out. I mean William Shatner helped write TFF, and he included numerous “light-hearted” moments in the movie which ended up as comedy, whether they were intended for that or not. And if not, someone should have told Shatner not to include it because people will end up laughing. It’s the sort of stuff you see in comedies and sitcoms.

Scotty says “I know this ship like the back of my hand!” and a second later knocks himself out unconcious after smacking his head on a pipe. The entire scene comes off as being telegraphed as a moment of comedy.

Same deal with the swollen hands and numb-tongue. It was slap-stick comedy. Look at the way the scene was written, shot and acted.

1050. Red Dead Ryan - December 23, 2013

I’ll grant you that the swollen hands may be realistic — I take that back from my earlier statements — but the numb-tongue portion reminded me of Jar Jar Binks clumsiness from “The Phantom Menace”.

1051. Vultan - December 23, 2013

Just kidding, guys.

I know that sarcasm doesn’t always carry over in text, but c’mon, I was praising Final Frontier for its brilliance! Ha, nothing brilliant in that film, save for maybe the McCoy scene with his dad.

Anyway, again, Happy Holidays to everyone here!
See you next year. ;-)

1052. Keachick - December 23, 2013

Except that a numb-tongue can also be another disturbing, if not life-threatening, allergic reaction. Kirk was not a well person…

1053. Disinvited - December 24, 2013

#1013. Vultan – December 23, 2013

Hmmm…was it? I seem to recall that one of the reasons they had to suit up in THE THOLIAN WEB was even though the Defiant was perfectly functional the interphase made the usefulness of its artificial gravity and environment for the purposes of the boarding party problematical. Kirk was definitely easily separated from that ship in a manner consistent with non-effective artificial gravity on his person, at least.

1054. TUP - December 24, 2013

http://furiousfanboys.com/2013/04/five-reasons-wrath-of-khan-should-not-be-remade/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_72192

1055. Michael Hall - December 24, 2013

“At no time can I recall any Star Trek movie or episode coming with canned laughter, which tells the audience that this or that scene is funny and that they are supposed to laugh – Hahaha…Therefore, if people found the scene funny, then that is how it looked to them; if others were irritated, then that is how the scene appeared. “

Good God. It never ceases to amaze me how far some people are willing to reach, swollen hands or no. But fortunately the matter can be easily resolved: why not just ask Bob Orci whether that scene was meant to be funny, or was a serious commentary on the danger of allergic drug reactions? I’m sure we’ll all anxiously await his answer. In the meantime, I’d still be interested to know how nu-Spock’s jettisoning an obnoxious fratboy into space, rather than just tossing him into what turns out to be a very spacious and well-appointed Enterprise brig, is less inconsistent with his established character than pre-empting his former captain (who at the time of TUC no longer actually outranks him) in a conversation or two.

1056. Curious Cadet - December 24, 2013

@1054 Michael Hall,
“I’d still be interested to know how nu-Spock’s jettisoning an obnoxious fratboy into space, rather than just tossing him into what turns out to be a very spacious and well-appointed Enterprise brig”

Michael, I’m disappointed in you. The Enterprise had not even had its maiden voyage when it was summoned to Vulcan. Obviously the brig had not yet been installed, or yet functional, being one of the least important aspects of Enterprise’s functions. And if you must insist it was there for some reason the supporters of the film missed, Kirk was so brilliant he could have easily broken out and continued to create havoc, and Spock knew this because of the brilliant way in which Kirk defeated the Kobayashi Maru. /s

1057. MJ - December 24, 2013

Micheal,

Don’t worry — we all know that Curious Cadet has “Numb-Brain.”

LOL

1058. MJ - December 24, 2013

@1053

You forgot to include the link to the Central African guy that needs our help to get money in the US.

1059. Michael Hall - December 24, 2013

“Michael, I’m disappointed in you. The Enterprise had not even had its maiden voyage when it was summoned to Vulcan. Obviously the brig had not yet been installed, or yet functional, being one of the least important aspects of Enterprise’s functions. And if you must insist it was there for some reason the supporters of the film missed, Kirk was so brilliant he could have easily broken out and continued to create havoc, and Spock knew this because of the brilliant way in which Kirk defeated the Kobayashi “

LOL. Not sure if you’re being intentionally snarky or not, but that’s pretty damn funny either way.

As that group of Space Hippies once said, “We reach.” Right, Keachick? :-)

A Merry Christmas to one and all.

1060. Marja - December 24, 2013

1037 Michael Hall, RE: LURSA and B’ETOR, I once drew a cartoon for Orion Press in which I featured these Klingon women, their leather-clad torsos bearing the décolleté oval, with a cartoon-frame placard and an arrow to the oval, “STAB HERE.”

Ah, so much of Trek lends itself to cartoons ….
————————————————————
RE: JETTISONING THE ‘FRAT BOY,’ this plot convenience, for the purpose of Kirk meeting Prime Spock, should have been re-thought, because it didn’t seem logical on Spock’s part, and at the time, he was very much in Command Mode, thus, thinking coolly. The Brig would have been very efficient in the moment, and would have suited Kirk’s disobeying an order, though I did love the Spock Pinch that preceded it ;-)

1061. Marja - December 24, 2013

1024 MJ, May you and others here have a joyful, Undiscovered Christmas, and may your New Year’s resolutions not descend Into Darkness by mid-January. And for or those you travelling over the holidays, I wish you each a safe Voyage Home.

Well said, sir! I echo your sentiments and I add, May all of you Live, Love and Prosper in the coming year.

1062. Marja - December 24, 2013

1032, Vultan, PLOT HOLES: the bane of all filmed and televised Trek :-) … once they’d introduced the “beam them back using the memory in the transporter buffer” trope in animated Trek, I thought, “Well, there go half the plots in future Trek …” But later, it was simply ignored, or used for convenience ….
———————————————————-
Re: STVI TUC, I used to call it “STVI: Klingons Quote Shakespeare!”
As a Foreign Training Officer at the time, I really disliked the scene in which the Bridge officers complained about and voiced their dislike for, and disgust with, the Klingons. Conduct unbecoming officers who are expected, in the course of their duties, are expected to meet with alien species many times in the course of their careers. I thought they would’ve been much better educated than that. (At the MOST, I could, perhaps, see a brief expression of one or the other, from, say, Chekov, quickly covered by a veneer of professionalism, or a “look” exchanged, but followed by a peremptory “look” by Spock or Kirk.)

1063. Marja - December 24, 2013

1033 dmduncan, While I liked [for the most part] the designs of the red uniforms for TWOK, and agree with you about the older uniform design and ageing actors, I disliked the “flap” design with the department color [illogical] and all the fasteners – Velcro would have suited much better – and thought a modification of the v-neck tunic using tailored wool, with a peplum for the females’ uniforms, might have been much better-looking, with the department color in the turtleneck.

Hated the idea of “enlisted quarters,” on a ship the size of Enterprise, I thought [as shown in “Obsession”] even the junior officers would have had at least a two-bunk setup with a small “office area” – hellz, you even see that in WWII ship-based films. Enterprise is supposed to be the size of an aircraft carrier, and despite Mr Meyers’s vision, would have only a small kitchen for “recreational use” by officers who love cooking as a hobby [again per Roddenberry in “The Making of Star Trek.” [Also I’ve always thought people complaining about replicated food was odd, as if it was like the powdered eggs or MREs served in the 20th century. I’d imagine by the 23rd century they could manage to replicate food on the molecular level!

1064. Marja - December 24, 2013

1035 RDRyan, Kor was my favorite Klingon ever [“Errand of Mercy” – “It would have been glooorius”]. Followed by Kang and then Worf.

I was sad to see Kor reduced to a bit of a comedic character in DS9. And Koloth, IMHO, would never have ascended to the heights he did by DS9. I would have given him the comical role; Kor, the role of the Top Klingon, and Kang, the role he had. Ansara was also the best-looking Klingon ever.

Your 1048, I confess, I liked those moments, and while I thought the hand-swelling was comical [especially as played by Pine and ‘Zaldana’] it also seemed quite possible. As did Kirk bumping his head when he boarded the shuttle, so excited and a bit cocky, and Uhura’s reaction. But my favorite moment in that scene was McCoy’s “Space is disease and danger, wrapped in darkness and silence” and Kirk’s response, “I hate to break it to you, but Starfleet operates in space.” Hee!

1065. Danpaine - December 24, 2013

Merry Christmas, Everybody. I gave a fellow Trek Geek the Hallmark Kelvin ornament the other night as a gift. He was ecstatic. Great lights on that!

Good Cheer.

1066. Disinvited - December 24, 2013

Happy Holidays, all!

1067. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - December 24, 2013

“Michael, I’m disappointed in you. The Enterprise had not even had its maiden voyage when it was summoned to Vulcan. Obviously the brig had not yet been installed, or yet functional, being one of the least important aspects of Enterprise’s functions. ”

I’ve just read the set of posts that included this comment. My brain immediately supplied: “yeah, that was due to be installed on Tuesday…”

To all: have a very happy and content holiday season, and a happy and prosperous new year.

1068. Marja - December 24, 2013

1054 TUP, my god, McKellan’s eyes are as blue as Chris Pine’s! I never thought I’d see the day.

I suppose I should say Pine’s eyes are as blue as Sir Ian’s, since Sir Ian is older ;-) [age before beauty, eh Rose?

1069. dswynne - December 24, 2013

@1031. (MJ): Sorry, but TOS has shown Kirk and crew having prejudice against Klingons, having fought them on a personal level.. What makes Kirk a hero is his ability to overcome them for the greater good, which was demonstrated in TUC.

1070. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 24, 2013

Merry Christmas, Trekkies!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbDXjBVPaxU

1071. Captain Slow - December 24, 2013

Have a logical and fascinating Christmas.

1072. MJ - December 25, 2013

@1069

That was way back in his early days as a Captain in TOS. He had moved way beyond that later in his career, as evidenced by the movies. As I have already stated here:

“Again though, how Kirk interacts with Klingons at the end of Trek III, and again in Trek V, shows that there is no prejudicial trend of Kirks towards Klingons…nor does his crew show this prejudicial trend. The prejudice by Kirk and the crew in TUC is an artificial construction created by Meyer to tell his Cold War allegory story….it is not supported at all by Kirk’s and his crew’s behavior towards Klingons in the 12 years of TOS star Trek movies that preceded it. It just shows up in TUC, and all of a sudden, were are supposed to buy into it. I never did, although I was more accepting of it back then since TUC was so much better than the horrid V.”

1073. Curious Cadet - December 25, 2013

@1069 Dswynne,
“TOS has shown Kirk and crew having prejudice against Klingons, having fought them on a personal level.”

Exactly right. And it’s continued in the films. These are the following relevant bits of dialogue about Klingons by the crew from STV:TFF. Very little else is said about them on this level in any of the movies. This sets up STVI:TUC perfectly to see their real feelings come out when forced into face-to-face interactions with them.

SCOTTY: “We’ll beat those Klingon devils” and “I never thought I’d ever be drinking with a Klingon”
SPOCK: “Please, Captain. Not in front of the Klingons.”
KIRK: “So it’s me you want, you Klingon bastards”
McCOY: “I think this is a terrible idea. We’re bound to bump into the Klingons and they don’t exactly like you.” — KIRK: “The feeling’s mutual”.

In STIV:TVH, Several of the crew make denigrating comments at the Klingon’s expense — McCoy calls the Klingon ship a “flea trap”, Scotty makes similar comments about the equipment, all revealing a subtle bias.

And of course STIII:TSFS originates Kirk’s reused and inherently bigoted line, “Klingon bastard”.

1074. MJ - December 25, 2013

Nice try CC with your out-of-context cherry-picking, but here is the real deal….

From ST V:

KIRK
(fondly)
General Korrd’s military strategies
were required learning when I was
a cadet at the Academy. When they
put me out to pasture, I hope I
fare better than Korrd.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

KORRD
(continuing)
Kirk, my junior officer has
something he wants to say to you.
(speaks to Klaa in Klingon.)

KLAA
I apologize.

Korrd speaks to Klaa in Klingon once again.

KLAA
(continuing)
The attack upon your vessel was
not authorized by my government.

KORRD
Kirk, and now, may I present our
new gunner.

The command chair swivels around to reveal its occupant
to be Spock. He unstraps himself from the gunner’s rig,
stands up and straightens his uniform in a dignified
manner.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Klingon polishes off a tumbler of fluid. He frowns.
What he wants is a real drink. Scotty approaches him.

SCOTTY
Would you care for a wee nip of
Scotch whiskey?

KORRD
Ummmm…

Scotty produces a bottle and pours a splash into the
Klingon’s tumbler. Korrd downs it with obvious relish.
Scotty smiles.

SCOTTY
I never thought I’d ever be drinking
with a Klingon, heh?

Korrd chortles agreeably and moves off. We FOLLOW him
over to Talbot and Caithlin.

KORRD
What are you two conspiring
about?

TALBOT
We were just saying how far we’ve
come in such a short space of time.

KORRD
We certainly have.

1075. Andorian - December 25, 2013

As one of the few people here apparently who likes STV, I will say towards the end of the movie there was definitely a “these Klingons aren’t so bad” vibe coming from Kirk, Spock and Scotty. That’s why it was so shocking to me that Kirk and the crew so completely reversed course in ST6 and were suddenly racist haters of Klingons — right after they starting even liking some Klingons at the end of STV? ST6 was completely inconsistent in this regard, and this still bothers me when I watch them back to back.

STV is not perfect, but at least the characters don’t go against their core beliefs and all of a sudden behave like 20th century racists. Shame on N Meyer for abandoning our great characters to make his dated cold war analogy movie.

I actually prefer STV to STVI.

1076. Red Dead Ryan - December 26, 2013

During TOS, Kirk disliked the Klingons because they managed to do what no other villain had been able to do up until “Errand of Mercy”: get under his skin and make him lose his emotional balance. There was no evidence of racism; more likely it was cultural bias and prejudice. Kirk took some time to realize that, although the Klingons seemed barbaric, violent and distrustful, humans still maintained some of those flaws, despite the progession made by the 23rd century to better themselves. The Klingons were a mirror for Kirk, and forced him to realize that he could be just as easily be violent and barbaric. However, he was able to overcome that during TOS, and through the first five movies by striving to not use lethal force as a means to an end, unless it was absolutely necessary, such as in the case of self-defence.

1077. Andorian - December 26, 2013

Why has my post on Star Trek V been censored here???

1078. Phil - December 26, 2013

Completely off topic….STID will remain in the top ten this year, though Frozen might nudge it out of the number nine spot. Not to shabby…

1079. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 26, 2013

I’ve seen the Hobbit 2 twice already.

Trek could have easily doubled my take, if it had been a solid picture.

1080. Curious Cadet - December 26, 2013

@1077 Phil,

I’m impressed by Frozen’s performance. It is only $18 million behind STID will most likely pass it by next Wednesday considering it is earning over $30 million a week. I’d say it’d do more than nudge STID out of the #9 spot.

Meanwhile, Thor which you said was struggling to break $200 million has easily done that before the end of the calendar year and will likely pass WWZ as the #11 spot by years end. I would expect Thor to close around $210 million depending on how many more theaters it loses over e next two months, not really having the opportunity to pull in much more.

But I don’t really understand what all this Obsession is over where STID places given the artificial deadline of December 31, rather than the close of films released in December 2013. STID’s performance isn’t compared to films that opened in November or December of 2012 which played well into 2013. If it did, STID wouldn’t even place in the top 10 for 2013 now.

In two months, if not before, the Hobbit will cause STID will drop out of the top 10 for 2013, making your arbitrary deadline moot. So really, I don’t get it, except it gives STID a temporary, but meaningless victory.

1081. Red Dead Ryan - December 26, 2013

1076. Andorian,

“Why has my post on Star Trek V been censored here???”

I don’t know, but considering your other personalities here (TMMW, Spock’s Bangs, Who Cares, etc.) I’m taking great pleasure in the karma you are experiencing with your post dissappearing. :-)

1082. Curious Cadet - December 26, 2013

So this is how your list would currently look if include all of the films that opened in 2012 (*) which were still earning revenue well into 2013. So you either include those films, or declare STID’s hollow top 10 placement victory premature, and accept it will end up in 11th place for the exhibition year. Again, not too shabby, just don’t understand the need to obsess over it. STID performed remarkably well without this manufactured victory.

1 Iron Man 3 BV $409,013,994
2 The Hunger Games: Catching Fire LGF $377,962,000
3 Despicable Me 2 Uni. $367,504,160
*4 Skyfall Sony $304,360,277
*5 The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey WB $303,003,568
*6 The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn Part 2 LG/S $292,324,737
7 Man of Steel WB $291,045,518
8 Monsters University BV $268,492,764
9 Gravity WB $253,694,288
10 Fast & Furious 6 Uni. $238,679,850
*11 Brave BV $237,283,207 4,164 $66,323,594 4,164
12 Oz The Great and Powerful BV $234,911,825
13 Star Trek Into Darkness Par. $228,778,661
14 Frozen (2013) BV $210,399,000

1083. dmduncan - December 26, 2013

Nah, you guys got it going sideways. When Kirk says he’s never been able to forgive the Klingons for the death of his son, that nullifies your arguments. Kirk has been personally affected by David’s loss AFTER TSFS, which by itself answers the question regarding the lack of evidence you would try to cite before that loss; THAT is the sort of thing that can EASILY turn into resentment and bigotry in the real world.

Second, there IS precedent in TOS for Kirk’s antagonism towards Klingons. And antagonism like that is the ground of bigotry. So Kirk does show that he’s got what it takes to dislike Klingons.

To say that Kirk bigotry just pops up in TUC without previous groundwork is just not true. Kirk has never been portrayed as a perfect man who makes no mistakes.

So the groundwork was laid in TOS AND in TSFS, where his antagonism and loss, respectively, show a vulnerability to bigoted behavior.

You guys are also failing to reconcile Kirk’s behavior within the same movie. Yeah, it’s a harsh thing to say “let them die!”, but would a guy who really wanted that to happen then so easily invite the people he’s wishing death on to dinner aboard his ship?

Some of what Kirk says in TUC just sounds an awful lot like an angry man saying things he would later regret—exactly like someone who harbors resentment for his son’s death might; otherwise, how could he change so easily to a more compassionate state of mind in the same movie, and end up being FOR peace with the Klingons in the end? When he DOES get time to reflect, on Rura Penthe, that some felt a lot worse about peace than he did, it all makes sense, and he comes to the conclusions that we would expect the Kirk of old to come to.

Meyer did a fine job of giving Kirk some depth in TUC—something the character always needed more of.

As for TFF: That is the most inconsistent Star Trek movie of all. Kirk gets possessed by the spirit of William Shatner.

Meyer’s is a far more plausible take, consistent with what we’ve seen from Kirk in the past, than Shatner’s take is. So if you are going to TFF for what’s consistently Kirk-like—singing Row Your Boat around a campfire ain’t it.

1084. MJ - December 26, 2013

@1082

Hmm. OK, but explain for me how Scotty definitely makes peace with the Klingon in STV, and then is all of a sudden a racist in ST6? Maybe I grant you the Kirk argument, but Scotty, now that is a complete departure from one movie to the next.

I don’t like V either as you know, but it is canon, and it came right before 6 — there’s not much getting around that, whether we like it or no.

1085. Phil - December 26, 2013

@1081 A calendar year is hardly arbitrary, as it seems that most financial reporting is also done on the calendar year. It also appears, that among reporting criteria, that the revenue is counted in the year of release. Regardless of where the accountants may choose to place it for tax purposes, the numbers reported are year over year. So, the calendar it is, if for no other reason then consistence.

What I said about Thor was correct – here we are, at the end of the year, and it tipped in at 201MM. If it passes WWZ for total domestic box office, it will be by the narrowest of margins. Frozen has legs – not sure if it will do 18MM in business in the next five days, but it will bump Trek down to ten at the end of it’s run. Hobbit 2 probably does not have 80MM in business left.

It’s hardly a hollow victory, Trek will probably end 2013 at number ten. Not an obsession by any means, just a measure of performance within established parameters….

1086. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 26, 2013

1080. Red Dead Ryan

It appears there is a little room left for new posters on this forum even with your big head here all the time, Red Dead.

Actually, I’ve been posting since 2007-8. Perhaps someday an article would be written about who exactly was secretly socking away selfish posts.

Anyhow, I openly admitted my error in judgement by posting as Other Guy months ago. I am sure Anthony or Matt would not ever let me get away with that again.

And I did openly admit my indescetion here at TM about the Other Guy.
Sadly, I decided to do that as I felt so put off, and even hated, by some here for merely posting open honest thoughts about Trek and how it’s affected our world.

Thoughts that time and again have generated outrageous hateful responses. And that’s exactly why it’s not hard for me to understand why some have already harshly prejudged me, and certain other [political] events, not easily understood at a first viewing.

Kinda like the main plotline of STiD that so many refuse to take seriously.

1087. Phil - December 26, 2013

@1082. You could easily argue that Kirks antagonism toward the Klingons probably had it’s root off screen – Changs comment about ‘warrior to warrior’ had it’s roots in combat – Chang doesn’t see Kirk as an equal because Kirk is an excellent debater, at some point Kirk earned the respect of his enemies in defense of the Federation.

I do have some skepticism that the source of Kirks hatred of Klingons was because they killed his son. Prior to WOK, it’s established Kirk has no history with his son, and within a real short amount of time David is dead. There just isn’t enough time accounted for that would allow for the deep personal bonds to form that would cause Kirk to foster such a level of bigotry.

1088. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 26, 2013

David’s death was senseless, and I bet Kirk always blamed himself first for not escaping that no-win situation. That leaves little room for logically thinking about how and why it happened or how to honestly deal with the rage.

Blinded by the hate.

Sounds familiar.

1089. dmduncan - December 26, 2013

1083. MJ – December 26, 2013

Well…same reason Kirk is Kirk before and after ST5 and he is William Shatner in ST5! William Shatner is the reason.

But I don’t recall Scotty being a racist in ST6. Good people can still have negative stereotypes until they get educated, without being hardcore racists, and the crew of the Enterprise doesn’t have much experience with Klingons that isn’t negative or strained. The one exception is Day of the Dove, and that is the exception. The rest of the time the Klingons are causing trouble and the crew of the Enterprise is trying to counter them.

Just think of the situation in America post 9/11 with the widespread animosity towards Arabs, those mistaken for Arabs, and Islam. A lot of that “All Muslims are bad” stuff has been dissipated by education.

And I don’t think Meyer based anything of what he did in TUC on TFF, just like he didn’t base anything he did in TWOK on TMP.

Meyer followed his own authorship, true to everything else he had done for Star Trek before TUC, and then Shatner comes along and does his own thing.

But I think Scotty still ends up with the same attitude he had in ST5 (he’s part of the rescue team that foils the plot and saves the chance for peace), but Meyer got him there in a more interesting way than Shatner did.

1090. Curious Cadet - December 26, 2013

@1084. Phil,
“A calendar year is hardly arbitrary, as it seems that most financial reporting is also done on the calendar year. It also appears, that among reporting criteria, that the revenue is counted in the year of release. Regardless of where the accountants may choose to place it for tax purposes, the numbers reported are year over year. So, the calendar it is, if for no other reason then consistence.”

Except STID’s ranking doesn’t mean anything as to where it finishes on December 31, 2013. That’s why your measure is arbitrary, and you admit as much by telling us how the reporting criteria is measured, and it’s obvious that STID will not finish the exhibition year in its current position, by ALL industry reporting criteria, yet you still assign this arbitrary December 31 benchmark to it, which matters to no one but you, at least no one in the entertainment business. Moreover, the studios all have different fiscal year ends. Paramount just ended September 30, 2013, same with Disney. Lions Gate ends March 31, 2014. This makes your deadline of 12/31/13 even more arbitrary.

But whatever, I join with you in celebrating STIDs temporary victory of making it 7.5 months to the end of 2013 in the top 10 even though its not likely to finish there.

1091. Phil - December 26, 2013

@1089. There’s a fatal flaw in your argument – it’s not me just making up arbitrary dates. Industry performance is measured year over year, based on a calendar year. The final numbers wont be known until all 2013 release dates run their course over the next couple of weeks. I’m not sure why this sticks in your throat so bad, but by accepted reporting standards, STID will be in the top ten when all is said and done. Grab any site that reports the numbers – it’s all measured year over year, not fiscal year, rolling averages, exhibit runs, or any situation where it would be easy to juice the numbers by just jockeying release dates.

If it’s accuracy you are striving for, worldwide box office is a much better measure – and STID is still in the top 15.

1092. Phil - December 26, 2013

@1087. So, how is David’s death any more senseless then any other random senseless death Kirk witnessed? David was almost a complete stranger to him, any feelings of failure or remorse would have been out of sympathy to Carol, knowing that what she tried so hard to shield David from ended up killing him.

1093. Curious Cadet - December 26, 2013

@1090 Phil,

You’re the one not making any sense here. ALL industry reporting will include the final box office grosses for the movies released in 2013 currently in the theaters. Buy claiming STID has one some sort of victory because on December 31,2013 it was still in the top 10, you are flouting your own argument. STID will place wherever it does for 2013 once The Hobbit, et al close in March or April and report their final take. period. Where it places on 12/31/2013 means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

And now suddenly since STID cannot make the worldwide top 10, you’re expanding the criteria to the top 15!? Well hip hip hurrah. Good thing nobody can call you biased in your reporting of facts.

1094. Red Dead Ryan - December 26, 2013

I see that TMMW is still trying to play the “innocent victim” card around here despite being busted repeatedly for sockpuppeteering and political trolling.

1095. Vultan - December 26, 2013

Kirk already felt remorse for not being apart of David’s life (he expresses this when talking with Carol in the Genesis cave). So just when he finally gets to know the kid, at a major turning point in his life no less, he loses him in a horrific way.

And because of this, it doesn’t take any great stretch of the imagination to see Kirk turn into the bitter old man we see in TUC, which I’d always assumed takes place many years after FF.

1096. Phil - December 26, 2013

@1092 Go back and read what I said – I’ve never stated, hinted, or implied (and I don’t think anyone has) that STID was top ten material worldwide. Both of Abrams Trek movies have finished in the top 15 in their respective years of release – go look this up on Box Office Mojo, or any of the industry papers that report performance.

When Hobbit finishes it’s run, STID will end the year in 10th place – Hobbit doesn’t have another 80MM in box office left, if it does, then STID finishes 11th. Still a good showing, either way.

1097. Phil - December 26, 2013

@1093. That assumes a lot of father/son bonding time off screen, as the time sequence between WOK and SFS seems to be just a few weeks. There just doesn’t seem to have been enough time for those two to bond in such a fashion to justify the raging hatred shown in TUD. I could understand guilt, remorse, or depression, but bigotry and prejudice would not be my first choice under those circumstances.

Then again, I’m not a counselor, so I could be wrong here…

1098. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 26, 2013

I recall a well acted and written back story in Star Trek the Wrath of Khan about Kirk having to face his own mortality and advancing years, and in the end, a real appreciation for the next generation in Saavik, and especially David, his son.

I thought this theme carried over quite well in Star Trek The Search for Spock. Even though the third movie did not seem to have the same polish as STII, or its predecessor the magnificent ST-TMP.

So perhaps we have to understand that our Treks were getting bit long in years, both onscreen and off. This seems to have resulted in poorer quality on several levels throughout the subsequent productions.

But Shatner’s acting was good enough to carry that day on that dramatic scene where he learns of his son’s fate.

I wonder. Did Shatner intentionally ‘miss’ sitting back into the command chair? Or, was it a take they just thought was best?

1099. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 26, 2013

1084. Phil – December 26, 2013

“…, but it will bump Trek down to ten at the end of it’s run. Hobbit 2 probably does not have 80MM in business left.”

HA!

The Hobbit was excellent!

This is why my friend is telling me the he could not get a seat TODAY!
He even said the next showings were sold out in all formats!

That is the difference. Quality.

1100. Phil - December 26, 2013

@1097. Glad you liked it. It’ll end up around 220MM at the end of it’s run. And the quality issue is debatable – bloated might be a bit more descriptive. God help us if Peter Jackson ever adapts Green Eggs & Ham for the big screen, we will get it in four parts….

1101. K-7 - December 26, 2013

It’s the day after Christmas, dumbass — the biggest movie-going day of the year. LOL

****************************************
The Hobbit was excellent!

This is why my friend is telling me the he could not get a seat TODAY!
He even said the next showings were sold out in all formats!

That is the difference. Quality.

1102. K-7 - December 26, 2013

OMG, someone please bring out the moron patrol. If it finishes 11th versus 110h worldwide, that is still great. Duh!

How idiotic to infer, “ha, ha, it didn’t make 10th place.” For Christ’s sake, grow up, Curious Cadet. So sick of your whining about the STID box office supposed malaise.

***************************************
And now suddenly since STID cannot make the worldwide top 10, you’re expanding the criteria to the top 15!?

1103. Red Dead Ryan - December 26, 2013

All,

I saw “The Hobbit 2″ a week ago, and I can say its much better than the first movie, which I still like. The movie has generally gotten good to great ratings from critics and audiences. 75 and 86 averages on Rotten Tomatoes, respectively.

I also agree that the “negative Nelly” Curious Cadet needs to stop with the asinine anti-STID “observations”.

STID is by far the most successful Trek movie to date worldwide!

CASE CLOSED!!!!!

1104. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 26, 2013

The Hobbit II barrel scene elicited truly wonderful sounds of children laughing throughout Bombur’s ‘fling’ down the riverside. A truly memorable moviegoer moment for me. That was a great scene.

1105. MJ - December 26, 2013

RDR, K-&,

I can just picture CC, getting up every morning this final week of December, and checking Boxofficemojo, hoping to see if STID can get knocked out of the top 10 by New Years Eve so that he can then come here with his negative celebratory nonsense on STID box office.

Sheesh, how pathetic! :-(

1106. Marja - December 27, 2013

1100 Phil, the first Hobbit movie was so bloated, and by too much CGI, that I intend to give this one a miss also.

Re: your 1097, is it possibly b/c Kirk is angry at losing the chance to befriend his son? That’s what I always put it down to, but at the same time I thought his reaction was a bit over-the-top. Especially the “Klingon bastid who killed my [voice breaking] son!”

1107. Who cares - December 27, 2013

@RDR, DiscoSpock. I am not a sockpuppet of anyone, especially not people like I am not Herbert, or TMMW/Other Guy, or the others you list Disco, I have often disagreed at length with almost everything they post, and I do not understand how anyone who actually read my posts could possibly think I was the same person as the person or persons behind those posts. I do not recall ever having a serious disagreement with you though Disco, perhaps I have missed something, regardless I am not any of those individuals and have never posted a message as any of those names.

I post this just because I value honesty, and I am not a puppet for anyone. I had already been reducing the time I spent here and I don’t see that changing.

1108. TUP - December 27, 2013

The Hobbit was visually tremendous and dramatically boring. Same with the entire LOTR moves. I’ve never fallen asleep in a theatre before and did so for the last two LOTR movies. Just awful.

Sometimes the media drives success. Look at Avatar. I always said, “see Avatar for the production but thats it”. It was a very lame, boring movie but did huge business because everyone said how awesome it was when it wasnt.

1109. Curious Cadet - December 27, 2013

@1096. Phil,
“Go back and read what I said – I’ve never stated, hinted, or implied (and I don’t think anyone has) that STID was top ten material worldwide. Both of Abrams Trek movies have finished in the top 15 in their respective years of release – go look this up on Box Office Mojo, or any of the industry papers that report performance.”

This is tiresome. I predicted several months ago that Trek would finish in the exact same ranking worldwide that ST09 did — 13, and that it would finish behind ST09 at 10th or 11th. This is not about where STID will ultimately place, it’s about your arbitrary Dec 31, 2013 glorification of STIDs domestic box office ranking in the top 10, when NO reporting source uses that as a measure of anything. Then for some unexplained reason you change the top ten criterion to the top 15 for purposes of including STID in some kind of worldwide measure of accomplishment. STID needs no help from you, it did very well without these artificial benchmarks you feel the need to construct and defend for whatever reason.

If you want to make the prediction that STID will ultimately rank 10th in the final 2013 box office tally, then I’m excited to see the outcome with you. But this arbitrary 12/31/13 milestone is pointless.

1110. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

1108. TUP

Sounds a bit like my initial reaction to this new Hobbit movie. I’ve seen it twice already, and it was not until my last viewing and the barrel scene to fully realize that I might just be missing the boat when it comes to really enjoying these LOTR and Hobbit movies on a basic level.

Some of those scenes were directed to be appealing to ALL audiences. Not an easy thing to do when the scene involves mostly murderous rampages by evil blood thirsty orcs!

At the first viewing of the Hobbit while watching the barrel scene, I don’t know if I was uncomfortable in my chair, or was thinking that this was just a bit too ridiculous to be watching a lowly silly Hobbit onscreen for almost three hours. But, I felt like it was way to much CGI and a possibly a bit too calculated in its direction of the characters fates onscreen. I had a sense of angst watching that film the 1st time thinking how could that happen?

But that scene with the barrels was an AWESOME movie moment the second time! It was not until I heard the children’s laughter in the audience (later I saw they seemed to be aged 10 and up) that I realized I was missing the boat BIGTIME here. Seriously. That angelic sound of the children’s laughter was pure and simple reaction to a scene made for us to enjoy, while still propelling the story in a dramatic way. I am not ashamed to admit I pulled my hoody over a bit to mask my happy tears! : )
A truly elating and moving movie experience for me!

So, some parts of these Hobbit movies ARE meant to appeal to children, or at least a child-like innocence. I think you have to understand that sometimes the universe just wants you to win – because your good!

1111. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

1107. Who cares

Who cares what the haters say anyhow?

1112. Captain Slow - December 27, 2013

@ 1108 TUP

I will never understand the appeal pf Avatar. I wouldn’t see it even for the production value. As a special effects artist I felt that it was a very CG looking movie. The characters were creepy, the alien animals were far from convincing and the spaceships didn’t look real at all. All of that would have been forgivable if it was entertaining, but it was one of the most boring and unimaginative movies I’d ever seen.

1113. dmduncan - December 27, 2013

1095. Vultan – December 26, 2013

Yeah, that’s how I felt too. Kirk felt bad for not being there for David, and then he gets a chance to redeem himself…which is stolen.

Like so many villains, Kirk then blames Klingons as a group. But unlike the villains, Kirk doesn’t act on that animosity. Instead his better nature dominates.

Go back to TOS and the whole point of The Enemy Within was to show that Kirk had two sides, good and evil, and that those two things had to live in a sort of balance for him to be the person he was.

1114. Phil - December 27, 2013

Saw Avatar on cable – it didn’t strike me as something I’d want to see in the theater, and I don’t do 3-D, so there wasn’t any particular incentive to go. I also picked up on the observation that it was basically a retelling of Disney’s Pocahontas. That being said, I can understand the appeal, and nearly three billion in ticket sales suggests the movie struck a chord with the audience, even though it wasn’t something I’d watch more then once.

James Cameron does have a problem, though. With the focus of this universe being his blue skinned tree people, where do you go from here, story wise? Move them to a new tree? Defend against a new group of invaders? Cameron has stated he wants a Trek like franchise for Avatar, but he’s a bit limited with what he can do with his natives….

1115. Curious Cadet - December 27, 2013

@1089 dmduncan,
“But I don’t recall Scotty being a racist in ST6.”

That’s because he wasn’t.

Scotty doesn’t say anything inherently racist. Though one could attribute that bias if that’s their agenda. Here’s the first thing Scotty does say about the Klingons which is totally in keeping with where he left off in TFF:

McCOY: To you, Chancellor Gorkon, one of the architects of our future.
ALL: Chancellor!
SCOTT: Perhaps we are looking at something of that future here.

He goes on later to exclaim “Thank God” when the Klingons have left, but theres nothing inherently racist about it; and to accuse Gorkon’s daughter of killing her father, pointing out that Klingons don’t place the same value on life, neither which constitutes racism in of itself. There’s just no proof for this claim of racism, nor that the character is represented inconsistently from film to film.

1116. Ahmed - December 27, 2013

======================
Empire’s Review Of The Year – The Best Plot Twists Of 2013 (And Whether They Actually Worked)

BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH IS KHAN (STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS)

In maybe the least surprising twist of the year, it emerged that “John Harrison” is in fact Khan Noonien Singh, the terrifying figure of the 1990s Eugenics War on Earth who was exiled to space where he was deep-frozen, along with his people. So far, so canon. But in Star Trek Into Darkness a paranoid Starfleet Admiral (Peter Weller) finds Khan’s ship and thaws him out to help meet the threat of the Klingon Empire in a galaxy destabilised by the destruction of Vulcan.

Who better than a defrosted ancient warlord to plan the war effort and build powerful new torpedoes to use against the Klingons? After all, you can keep control of him by keeping his crew in deep-freeze and ensuring he doesn’t get anywhere near them. Get him to use a fake name to, we suppose, avoid associations with the ancient warlord he actually is, and so J.J. Abrams and his team can lie to all and sundry and do the same.

ANYWAY, Khan gets loose and… tries to start a war between the Federation and the Klingons? In order to… release the frozen shipmates that he, for some reason, has hidden in torpedoes? Wait, so how does starting a war help? Why does he go to Klingon?

Still Unexplained: How come none of us remember the Eugenics Wars? Were we mind-wiped?

We know Starfleet’s about exploration rather than conflict, but are you seriously telling us that they can’t build warships without the help of some popsicle?

We get that he’s all smart and strong and all, but Khan’s blood literally cures death?!

Why would anyone hide their mates in a bunch of torpedoes and then start a war in which those torpedoes are going to be BLOWN UP?

Logic Points: 3/10 – Hiding people in a torpedo is a dumb idea.

http://www.empireonline.com/features/best-movie-plot-twists-2013/p5

1117. Red Dead Ryan - December 27, 2013

#1108. TUP

“The Hobbit was visually tremendous and dramatically boring. Same with the entire LOTR moves. I’ve never fallen asleep in a theatre before and did so for the last two LOTR movies. Just awful.

Sometimes the media drives success. Look at Avatar. I always said, “see Avatar for the production but thats it”. It was a very lame, boring movie but did huge business because everyone said how awesome it was when it wasnt.”

So, you keep going to see these movies, and then claim they put you to sleep?? And how are these movies awful? “Avatar” and “Lord Of The Rings” are some of the greatest movies of all time. The media doesn’t drive success — the audience does. Just because you hate these movies doesn’t change the fact that they are awesome — your argument here lacks credibility. Totally ridiculous.

SHEESH!!!

1118. Curious Cadet - December 27, 2013

@1116 Ahmed,
“Logic Points: 3/10 – Hiding people in a torpedo is a dumb idea.”

There are a lot of reasons to dislike the choice of Khan, but this isn’t one of them. I actually think hiding his people in torpedoes is an excellent idea.

The problem was not with the idea, but the execution of it. Without foreknowledge of Khan’s original plan for rescuing his people, or further explanation when that plain falls apart of how it was supposed to work, it does seem pretty dumb. And that’s a failure on the writers part. My biggest complaint with STID is that it feels like a lot of great ideas were put into this pie, and then half-baked. I feel as though there must be pages of footage sitting on the editors floor which explains many of the ideas we see presented, for which we are otherwise left feeling somewhat unsatisfied.

1119. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1108 “Same with the entire LOTR moves.”

TUP, If you had any credibility here, whatsoever, it’s gone now with this remark. The new Hobbit movies are certainly debatable, but to say that about the original LOTR trilogy just makes you look like an adolescent with attention deficit disorder…which I would guess may not be to far off the mark here.

That’s like saying God or the Statue of Liberty is boring.

1120. MJ - December 27, 2013

My God, what utter drivel. Wah! Wah! Wah! “But Phil said if would finish in the Top 10 and I’m here to prove that wrong!” Wah! Wah! Wah!

Anybody have a fresh diaper? I think it’s changing time for Curious Cadet.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1109. Curious Cadet – December 27, 2013
@1096. Phil,
“Go back and read what I said – I’ve never stated, hinted, or implied (and I don’t think anyone has) that STID was top ten material worldwide. Both of Abrams Trek movies have finished in the top 15 in their respective years of release – go look this up on Box Office Mojo, or any of the industry papers that report performance.”

This is tiresome. I predicted several months ago that Trek would finish in the exact same ranking worldwide that ST09 did — 13, and that it would finish behind ST09 at 10th or 11th. This is not about where STID will ultimately place, it’s about your arbitrary Dec 31, 2013 glorification of STIDs domestic box office ranking in the top 10, when NO reporting source uses that as a measure of anything. Then for some unexplained reason you change the top ten criterion to the top 15 for purposes of including STID in some kind of worldwide measure of accomplishment. STID needs no help from you, it did very well without these artificial benchmarks you feel the need to construct and defend for whatever reason.

If you want to make the prediction that STID will ultimately rank 10th in the final 2013 box office tally, then I’m excited to see the outcome with you. But this arbitrary 12/31/13 milestone is pointless.

1121. MJ - December 27, 2013

It’s funny how people are bringing up Avatar being based on Pocahontas like it is some kind of a negative, yet at the same time, we get from some of these same folks impassioned defenses of Shakerspeare speaking Klingons and Vulcan’s making Cold War remarks. LOL

1122. MJ - December 27, 2013

“Logic Points: 3/10 – Hiding people in a torpedo is a dumb idea.”

I guess the Empire magazine author here never saw WOK and TSFS, where Spock’s body is burred in a torpedo, and the torepdo works still and lands on a planet.

W H O O P S ! ! !

LOL

1123. star trackie - December 27, 2013

#1115 “@1089 dmduncan,
“But I don’t recall Scotty being a racist in ST6.”

That’s because he wasn’t.

Well, maybe it wasn’t obvious, but unless that Scottish leopard has changed it’s spots, the racist angle fits in perfectly with his obvious dislike of the race displayed in the original series, notably, Trouble With Tribbles.

1124. Red Dead Ryan - December 27, 2013

#1120.

“My God, what utter drivel. Wah! Wah! Wah! “But Phil said if would finish in the Top 10 and I’m here to prove that wrong!” Wah! Wah! Wah!

Anybody have a fresh diaper? I think it’s changing time for Curious Cadet.”

Yeah, I think the diapers were left back in the daycare center at the academy. :-)

#1121.

“It’s funny how people are bringing up Avatar being based on Pocahontas like it is some kind of a negative, yet at the same time, we get from some of these same folks impassioned defenses of Shakerspeare speaking Klingons and Vulcan’s making Cold War remarks. LOL”

YUP!! Kind of like how people are criticising Miley Cyrus for being “trashy” and a poor role model while Madonna has been doing the same dance routines for three decades now and yet is considered a living legend. :-)

1125. Phil - December 27, 2013

@1121. It’s not so much a negative, it’s just that, ‘yeah, I get it, it’s not nice to fool Mother Nature’ messages in movies are not a big selling feature for me. Not losing a lot of sleep over Hamlet in the original Klingon, or the Nixon shrine on New Vulcan….

Now, the important question is, does ‘what happens in Vegas stay in Vegas’ in the 23rd century? If so, I’m surprised nuKirk doesn’t live there…

1126. Red Dead Ryan - December 27, 2013

#1116.

“Still Unexplained: How come none of us remember the Eugenics Wars? Were we mind-wiped?”

I don’t know…..I suppose one could go to a used book store, or go online to brush up on it? Or maybe because it didn’t actually occur in real life?

:-)

1127. Keachick - December 27, 2013

How is your Christmas so far? Good but hectic as mine has been?…

Michael Hall – Really? We don’t need to know whether Bob and/or co. meant the swollen hands scene to be comical or not. I think it speaks for itself, especially if it and other Star Trek movie scenes are not compared with characters and scenes from different franchises. Good God, yourself!

I think the essence of that scene was shown in Uhura’s expression when she first noticed Kirk’s large hands – it was a mixture of surprise, humour and concern. It is not unlike how more sensitive people might react when they see someone slip on the proverbial “banana skin” – it is at once amusing and concerning.

Re: TUC – Kirk and Klingons – I had felt that the writers had completely (and deliberately?) overlooked the events that took place between Kirk and SOME Klingons in Star Trek V and that has always peeved me. This gave rise to Kirk’s unfair and inappropriate “I can never forgive *THEM for the death of my boy”. This was also what get used against him and one of the major reasons why he and McCoy ended up in Rura Pentha.

We went to see the second Hobbit movie on 18 December – the day primary schools broke up for the Christmas/Summer holidays. Nobody fell asleep through it, not even the 11 year old. Far from it, in fact. I thought it was better than the first Hobbit movie, because it did not feel as if it was a bit too long, like the first one did to me. We thoroughly enjoyed the film! Definitely getting the DVD! The first Hobbit movie has grown on me…

One of the aspects that I noted about both Hobbit films was how some of the scenes were so choreographed as to seem ridiculous and unreal. I wondered what Peter Jackson and co. were up to.

My better half probably has just about all the books JRR Tolkien ever wrote and he has read the Hobbit/LOTR books more often than anything else, ever since they first got published. He tells me in a very satisfied and delighted way that what we see and hear (most of the actual dialogue is lifted straight from the books) on film is pretty much what is written in the books, including those choreographed scenes. The dwarves in the barrels scenes were slightly different from what was told in the Hobbit book, in that Bilbo had somehow sealed the dwarves into the barrels and sent down the river, whereas the film showed it differently, but it still worked.

* THEM, as opposed to “him” (Kruge)

1128. DiscoSpock - December 27, 2013

Re: Phil: ” it was basically a retelling of Disney’s Pocahontas”

Hey guy, do you really think that Pocahontas wasn’t created by Disney, right? Come on man!

Pocahontas was a real figure in history, my friend. And if anything, Avatar’s slight use of the Pocohantas story was closer to the real history than that awful Disney movie.

1129. DiscoSpock - December 27, 2013

correction: “…was created by Disney..”

1130. Phil - December 27, 2013

I remember reading about it in my history classes, it was fought from 1939-1945. One side openly embraced Eugenics, and the other side considered it viable in the scientific community…..

1131. Phil - December 27, 2013

@1128. Wow. Considering that I didn’t imply in any way, shape, or form that Disney’s Pocahontas was a documentary, I have no clue how you arrived at the conclusion that I thought it was. I guess I need to spell it out – the Disney movie is a fairy tale, any similarities in characters end in name only. Avatar is also a fairy tale, and bears no resemblance to anything historical….

1132. Red Dead Ryan - December 27, 2013

#1128.

“Pocahontas was a real figure in history, my friend. And if anything, Avatar’s slight use of the Pocohantas story was closer to the real history than that awful Disney movie.”

Yeah, I agree. The Disney movie was a watered down, idealized fairy tale version of real life events — something that “Avatar” covered a lot better, and more accurately.

#1130.

“I remember reading about it in my history classes, it was fought from 1939-1945. One side openly embraced Eugenics, and the other side considered it viable in the scientific community…..”

The Eugenics wars described in “Star Trek” is a lot different from what happened during the Holocaust. There simply is no comparison. We don’t call what happened during WW2 the “Eugenics wars”, it’s properly referred to as the Holocaust.

1133. Captain Slow - December 27, 2013

Putting aside the unoriginal story of Avatar, it was just boring. It went on forever and just seemed to be there for the effects. James Cameron even said that he gave it a familiar story because the effects were so different from anything else. That shows that he cared more about spectacle than telling a good story.

On the unrelated subject of Khan putting his crew in torpedoes, everyone complains about that like it got by Marcus and worked perfectly, which it didn’t. The way I saw it was that Khan had access to the torpedoes because he was developing them, and then either through a slip-up in security or his intelligence he gained access to his crew.

We know he couldn’t just wake them up without endangering their lives and he couldn’t just sneak them past security, so the only option was the torpedoes. But he failed to transfer the torpedoes unnoticed and Marcus found out.

So it wasn’t a brilliant, fool-proof plan. It was an act of desperation based on his very limited options and it didn’t work.

1134. Ahmed - December 27, 2013

@ 1122. MJ – December 27, 2013

““Logic Points: 3/10 – Hiding people in a torpedo is a dumb idea.”

I guess the Empire magazine author here never saw WOK and TSFS, where Spock’s body is burred in a torpedo, and the torepdo works still and lands on a planet.
W H O O P S ! ! !
LOL”

Spock was DEAD, the torpedo was just a carrier, not a life support system.

If Khan has time to put 72 people in torpedoes, why he didn’t just free them ? And, as it was pointed out in the article,

“Why would anyone hide their mates in a bunch of torpedoes and then start a war in which those torpedoes are going to be BLOWN UP?”

It was a dumb idea, pure & simple.

1135. Vultan - December 27, 2013

With movies like The Hobbit and LOTR and Avatar, I think they’re beautiful to watch and everything, but good lord, they go on for so long. I always reach a point, usually around two hours, when I want someone to scream this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEtm_Q2LK9g

1136. Vultan - December 27, 2013

Yes, hiding frozen people in torpedoes is on the Wile E. Coyote level of genius. But then, despite the propaganda, Khan has never been all that bright. I mean, geez, the guy couldn’t figure out spaceships maneuver in three dimensions (sometimes four).

1137. Captain Slow - December 27, 2013

@ 1136 Vultan

There’s something about Khan that causes everyone around him to become dumb as well. I mean, in Space Seed the first thing Khan does after waking up is hold a knife to McCoy’s neck, and so McCoy gives him advice on how best to kill him, and then after they find out that Khan was a dictator they throw him a party.

Now was there anything as ridiculous as that in STID?

1138. Curious Cadet - December 27, 2013

@1134. Ahmed,
“It was a dumb idea, pure & simple.”

Again I totally disagree with you. You’re right about many things but, respectfully, not this.

It’s actually brilliant. Khan had no other way to get his men out of Section 31. So he designs a torpedo, since he was being kept as a weapons designer (what were his options?), he creates a space big enough for fuel that perfectly accommodates the cryotubes with enough room for some fuel to remain. Nobody thinks twice about these torpedoes which are sheilded to conceal the top secret nature of their design — specifically to start a war with the Klingons. Khan has them transferred to the Vengeance which he designed to be operated by one person, and then eventually takes control of it, awakens his crew before one torpedo is fired and then starts a war on the federation.

Brilliant. The movie just failed to explain it.

1139. Vultan - December 27, 2013

1137

Oh yes, lots of ridiculous stuff in STID. The deus ex magic blood is at the top of my list. Really painted themselves in a corner with that one. Probably best to forget it for future movies.

1140. Phil - December 27, 2013

@1132. Actually, the German embrace of Eugenics was much more encompassing, it drove most of the racial purity propaganda leading up to the war, and was used as a justification for the liberation of ‘pure’ German populations when the Germans began occupying neighboring countries. The Holocaust was as much the inevitable outcome of the scapegoating of a population as it was an application of Eugenics theory. Obviously, the geopolitical environment leading up to the war had many complexities – my point is that while the fictional Eugenics War obviously didn’t happen, it was at least a partial justification for a very real war.

Before we get too smug, there was general acceptance of the study of Eugenics in the US prior to the war, which was largely discredited by the time of the fall of the Reich. It’s not to hard to find white supremacist groups who still cling to it’s principles.

1141. Captain Slow - December 27, 2013

@ 1139 Vultan

I don’t think it painted them into a corner any more than so many other things in Star Trek. The Genesis device for instance. It may not be much good as a planet maker but it’s great as a doomsday weapon. No one should be a threat to the Federation anymore because you can wipe out an entire planet with just one small device.

The blood may be hard to explain but there are still many situations where it won’t help you. I’m sure it couldn’t save Admiral Marcus.

1142. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1134

It may have been a dumb other for OTHER REASONS than using the torpedo, but as I said, the idea for the torpedo to be carrying a human, was already done successfully in WOK and TSFS. Big deal if they have to throw in some cryo support hardware.

This specific thing was what the Empire article was complaining about, and it showed that the author was not really familiar with Star Trek.

1143. Ahmed - December 27, 2013

@1138. Curious Cadet

I’m no weapons designer but I think in any military organization, other people will check on the progress of any new weapon system before they approved it.

To say that Khan was able to do all that without anyone noticing it doesn’t make any sense in the real world. It is like saying that the US government gave Nazi scientists complete access & no supervision during Operation Paperclip after WWII because they trusted them !!

1144. Phil - December 27, 2013

@1138. Well, you actually do a decent job illustrating why it’s a dumb idea. Khan is being held against his will, to build weapons. This presumes Marcus held the 72 others close by Khan, instead of concealing them somewhere else. Dumb idea. If the guy was being held, presumably he was being watched – as he had enough time to appropriate a factory, build 72 weapons, and acquire the warheads and fuel for them, wouldn’t it have been much easier to appropriate a freighter and make your escape? Dumb idea. Why not just thaw out the other 72? Dumb…

Considering Bob’s embrace of rather complicated conspiracy theory, this complicated extortion story should be a surprise to no one. For it to work we need to believe a high ranking Starfleet Admiral has his own black ops budget, is responsible to no one in the chain of command, that civilian oversight of Starfleet doesn’t actually oversee anything, and that massive amounts of resources and manpower can be diverted to build massive spaceships and secret weapons and not a single person gives it a second thought. Yep, makes perfect sense to me….if this Federation is a totalitarian regime.

1145. Vultan - December 27, 2013

1143

Ahmed, I’ll have you know my grandpa traveled the world in a hollowed-out artillery shell. It’s the only way to fly.

1146. MJ - December 27, 2013

I find it utterly ridiculous with all the hate I hear on Avatar here. Here you have what essentially is a story that is pretty close to something in Star Trek (I mean, come on, this is a Star Trek-like story!), and becomes the biggest movie of all time, and we have Star Trek fans wanting to tear it down.

As a fan of science fiction and Star Trek, I will simply say that I would get down on my hands and knees and thank God if we ever saw a Star Trek movie that got the same treatment as Avatar. And it’s so hypocritical to see all the defenses about Shakespeare and Cold War lines in ST6, but then to have to hear people bitching about Avatar reusing stuff. Whether you agree with my like of Avatar or not, surely you can see how hypocritical some of you are coming across here?

I think some fans are just jealous of Avatar and Cameron here, because we never got that sort of groundbreaking movie in our universe.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1133. Captain Slow – December 27, 2013
Putting aside the unoriginal story of Avatar, it was just boring. It went on forever and just seemed to be there for the effects. James Cameron even said that he gave it a familiar story because the effects were so different from anything else. That shows that he cared more about spectacle than telling a good story.

On the unrelated subject of Khan putting his crew in torpedoes, everyone complains about that like it got by Marcus and worked perfectly, which it didn’t. The way I saw it was that Khan had access to the torpedoes because he was developing them, and then either through a slip-up in security or his intelligence he gained access to his crew.

We know he couldn’t just wake them up without endangering their lives and he couldn’t just sneak them past security, so the only option was the torpedoes. But he failed to transfer the torpedoes unnoticed and Marcus found out.

So it wasn’t a brilliant, fool-proof plan. It was an act of desperation based on his very limited options and it didn’t work.

1147. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1131. Phil, actually I thought the same thing. Your earlier post unintentionally came across like you thought Pocahontas was a Disney creation.

1148. Vultan - December 27, 2013

I’d place the magic blood in the same category of silly as Superman turning the Earth and time backwards. Both of them a cheap gimmick to only serve their respective stories, and a quick fix to bring a major character back from the temporary dead.

1149. Phil - December 27, 2013

@1142. Actually, life support is a big component of ant construct that needs to deliver a person safely somewhere, be they frozen or thawed. It was easy to chuck Spock in a torpedo, he was dead – huck the warhead, insert body. As a torpedo is designed for one purpose, to blow stuff up, it was of little consequence that it managed to survive reentry, other then to further the story and set up TSFS. Look at todays drones – getting the pilot out of the plane opens up a world of possibilities for what the aircraft can do when designers don’t have to worry about keeping the occupant alive…

1150. Phil - December 27, 2013

@1146. Oh, I’d be thrilled of a Cameron type wanted to do Trek. And there would be people here bitching about it….

1151. Dave H. - December 27, 2013

Hope everyone had a nice Christmas? Back in the cold here now after a week in sunny Florida.

Say, people,I find it hard to take people seriously here who try to tell us the the Lord of the Rings original trilogy and Avatar are bad movies. There is a credibility gap for me with these individuals; i.e. why should I then give credence to any of their other outlier opinions?

just saying…

1152. Curious Cadet - December 27, 2013

@1143. Ahmed,
“I’m no weapons designer but I think in any military organization, other people will check on the progress of any new weapon system before they approved it.”

As dmduncan is fond of telling me, there is nothing but a lack of imagination that prevents the scenario from working. Taken in context of the film as a whole it is quite easy to believe. Those other aspects of the film are the problems to be taken to task, here. But not the actual plan. If one accepts that Khan found some oversight with which he could exploit his plan, who’s to say its not possible? This is the same Starfleet that thought it was a good idea to take a 300 year old frozen superman and make him the head designer of the fleets most top secret project, because they forgot how to be savage and brutal. If you’re going to pick nits, start there.

But I’ll give you one of the “for instances” dmduncan gave me … Khan got the working torpedoes to the final stage. Then, he hacked the computer and had some flunkies who thought they were following Marcus’ orders do Khan’s bidding instead. The guys that loaded the torpedoes were just putting in some new part that was ordered (seemingly by Marcus), and told not to ask questions, when it was actually a repackaged cryotube by another group of guys just following orders. The right hand doesnt know what the left hand is doing. There you go, oversight thwarted. Kahn’s plan worked perfectly.

1153. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

1151. Dave H.

I guess my stock is rising! Eh, Dave? : )

1154. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1149

“Actually, life support is a big component of ant construct that needs to deliver a person safely somewhere, be they frozen or thawed. It was easy to chuck Spock in a torpedo, he was dead – huck the warhead, insert body.”

Except Phil that the original Botany Bay “cryo chambers,” built in the 1990’s weren’t much bigger than torpedo tubes…see for yourself:

http://nerdsofwisdom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/botany_bay1.jpg

So, it’s pretty easy to extrapolate that by the 23rd century that the hardware could easily be miniaturized further. You probably just need room for a shoebox size devices, and the torpedo already has a reliable power supply.

1155. Curious Cadet - December 27, 2013

@1144. Phil,
“If the guy was being held, presumably he was being watched”

You presume a lot.

So, this Khan who was being watched, escaped from Starfleet, saved a little girl, blew up Section 31, and then attacked the Starfleet headquarters … How?

Clearly the central premise of that aspect of the movie was — nobody was watching Khan!! If that holds true (and it must for the movie to work) then everything else you presume is quite likely incorrect as well.

1156. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

1148. Vultan

Yeah. I just don’t understand how they could have decontaminated all of Kirk’s ‘dead cells’ like his hair and teeth and fingernails.

It’s not like the magic Khan blood will circulate through his body and remove any of the highly radioactive cells that were irradiated.

Just how did McCoy or Scotty remove the radiation? If there is a way to decontaminate radiation that way, that would be magic.

1157. Dave H - December 27, 2013

TrekMadeWeWonder,

Yes, you are having some good posts lately. Keep it up, man!

I liked your posts in the “old days” around here. It was only your sock-puppeting and 911 stuff that bothered me there for awhile. Now that you are back with your good Trek comments, I like you again!!! ;-)

1158. Captain Slow - December 27, 2013

@ 1146 MJ

I think one of the main reasons I hated Avatar is because it felt like throughout the whole (very long) movie it was yelling “Sympathize with these people! Look they’re poor and exploited and live in trees! Ignore the fact that they’re creepy and have ethernet cables for hair.”

It has nothing to do with jealousy. Especially as I don’t see anything ground-breaking in Avatar. It had some innovations but nothing that gets me excited.

1159. Dave H - December 27, 2013

@1156

There is a difference between being irradiated and actually carrying radioactive material in your body. If you had been irradiated like Kirk was (and had some radioactive materials on your skin that could be cleaned off), you would need your cells rebuilt, and then you would be healthy again. That is difference then if your body ingested radioactive materials at a micro-level.

I would also think that a transporter-like medical device could be used to beam any radioactive materials out of your body.

1160. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1158 “I think one of the main reasons I hated Avatar is because it felt like throughout the whole (very long) movie it was yelling “Sympathize with these people!”

Because that doesn’t happen very often in Star Trek, of course. :-))

“Especially as I don’t see anything ground-breaking in Avatar.”

Now you are just being plain silly…

1161. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

Dave.
I only brought up all that stuff as I was having issues with the STiD plotline.

I was initially offended that the writers would use such a ‘longshot story idea’ when the general public has time and again abhored such ideas.

How could anyone respect the message of STiD when they seemingly detest any notion of conspiracies happening at all in real life?

How could the producers use that plotline, and then add to it the white guy cumby, without any explaination? It just seemed that we were all being played by boborci and his conspiracy metaphors at the expense of us whome were isimply there at the theatre to enjoy a sequel to 09’s movie.

The inside-job metaphor got NO RESPECT around here when I brought it up that there may be more going on with 911, the anger turned on me. But I am OK with that. I have had my say about it.

You see, this movie encompassed two of my passions. Trek made me wonder about the future, and politics makes me wonder about the past.

Thank you for your response, Dave!

1162. DiscoSpock - December 27, 2013

Captain Slow,

And it’s wrong that we sympathize with the natives in Avatar because…???

I sympathized with them, because I am a caring human being – they earned my sympathy. What of it? Is this some political thing for you?

1163. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

Avatar was not perfect.

One example.

Unobtanium.

1164. K-7 - December 27, 2013

Disco,

Yes, there is a “Duh” moment there if there ever was one. Of course we sympathized with those natives in Avatar. What kid of horse’s-ass would root for the money-grubbing corporate miners from Earth who were destroying Pandora after Earth’s biosphere in the future was shown to be so badly damaged from a long history of such malfeasance?

We don’t need a brain surgeon to spell this out for us here. “Duh”

What kind of person watches Avatar and gets upset at the natives? Huh?

1165. K-7 - December 27, 2013

#1163

One term in response: “Dylithium Crystals”

1166. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

1165. K-7 – December 27, 2013

#1163

One term in response: “Dylithium Crystals”

—-

That’s a fail for me K-7.

I’d go with Dylitium Crystals before Unobtanium.

Dylithium Crystals don’t magically float. And did’nt they have the scientific explaination of focusing a warp field?

1167. Curious Cadet - December 27, 2013

@1156. TrekMadeMeWonder,
“It’s not like the magic Khan blood will circulate through his body and remove any of the highly radioactive cells that were irradiated.”

You’re close. Decontaminating radioactivity is one thing, and I’ll give Khan’s blood a pass at being able to do that. The problem is Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof obviously flunked all of their biology courses, and didn’t bother to consult with anybody in the medical profession. Talk about dumb.

What people don’t understand is Kirk wasn’t merely radioactive. He was literally cooked to death. No differently than a roast sitting in a microwave oven. And thanks to becoming highly radioactive, he continued to cook, even after he expired, while they decontaminated the chamber in order to even remove his body, not to mention while lying on the table in sickbay waiting for the tribble to resurrect. Bottom line, there was nothing for Khan’s blood to circulate through!! No more than you could pump fluids through the meat you just cooked in your microwave oven.

1168. MJ - December 27, 2013

“And did’nt they have the scientific explaination of focusing a warp field?”

You just proved my point for me. This is fabricated science.

It’s no harder for me to believe that there is an exotic mineral out there somewhere in the galaxy that will help us to go 200 times the speed of light one day as it is to imagine that there is another exotic material somewhere in the galaxy that will cause gravitons in their local area to flow in reverse.

Heck, they have antigrav in Star Trek, and its no big deal. In fact, it appears to be “solid state” and hardly ever fails, which implies something exotic and stable.

1169. K-7 - December 27, 2013

TrekMadeMeWonder,

I’m not seeing much of a difference between the two. Both are fictitious elements that do exotic things centuries from now, and both are made up science.

1170. K-7 - December 27, 2013

“You just proved my point for me. This is fabricated science. It’s no harder for me to believe that there is an exotic mineral out there somewhere in the galaxy that will help us to go 200 times the speed of light one day as it is to imagine that there is another exotic material somewhere in the galaxy that will cause gravitons in their local area to flow in reverse. Heck, they have antigrav in Star Trek, and its no big deal. In fact, it appears to be “solid state” and hardly ever fails, which implies something exotic and stable.”

Exactly !!!

1171. DiscoSpock - December 27, 2013

Guys,

Unobtanium = Dilithium Crystals.

Same deal. And when you think about it, The Devil in the Dark and The Cloud Minders both have elements in them similar to Avatar — and in both cases, to probably the chagrin of Captain Slow…we are suppose to…GET THIS FOLKS…we are suppose to…HEAVAN FORBID…sympathize with the natives….OMG, PLEASE SAY IT ISN’T TRUE?

1172. Keachick - December 27, 2013

“Unobtainium” probably has a very long chemical name but to the layman, it just got called unobtainium because it could not be obtained from anywhere on earth. I do not see any problem or “imperfection” in this regard. The same applies to the term “dilithium crystals”. These are essentially layman’s terms anyway for chemical compounds not normally associated with everyday earthly minerals, metals, fauna, flora…

1173. Dave H - December 27, 2013

“Unobtanium = Dilithium Crystals”

Yea, same deal in both universes.

1174. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

Dylithium Crystals has a better name.

Star Trek TOS styling wins out on that fictional day.

1175. MJ - December 27, 2013

“What people don’t understand is Kirk wasn’t merely radioactive. He was literally cooked to death. No differently than a roast sitting in a microwave oven.”

But yet, from REAL medical science we know:

“Treatment of acute radiation syndrome is generally supportive with blood transfusions…”

Thank goodness, Curious Cadet, that you are an expert on radiation effects and treatment on humans, in addition to all of your other expertise areas here. LOL :-))

PS: Maybe stick to Boxofficemojo from now on — you at least come close to understanding that level of “science.”

1176. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1164

“Of course we sympathized with those natives in Avatar. What kid of horse’s-ass would root for the money-grubbing corporate miners from Earth who were destroying Pandora after Earth’s biosphere in the future was shown to be so badly damaged from a long history of such malfeasance? We don’t need a brain surgeon to spell this out for us here. “Duh” What kind of person watches Avatar and gets upset at the natives? Huh?”

Indeed. Why wouldn’t I be sympathizing and pulling for the natives in Avator? wtf?

What kind of person sees that movie and start’s pulling for the RDA? Makes no sense whatsoever?

1177. DiscoSpock - December 27, 2013

“What kind of person sees that movie and start’s pulling for the RDA?”

TUP and Captain Slow, apparently.

Perhaps they both work in the mining industry, or a related industry?

1178. Ahmed - December 27, 2013

Let me play devil’s advocate here & say, if it a choice between saving Earth & bringing new energy source back home or that we sympathize with savages who have no use for Unobtanium, then it is clear that Earth come first, nuke the savages back to the stone age!!

In all of history, whenever an advanced civilization meet a primitive one, the primitive civilization is crushed or assimilated. This has happened before, and will happen again here in Earth or elsewhere.

1179. Andorian - December 27, 2013

Ready Deadie Boy Ryan,

I am my own man. And Spock’s Brain and those others you mention are part of the group here that does not always agree with you, MJ and your clan of Klingons.

We are independent, and we disagree with you on many topics. Deal with it!

========================
1081. Red Dead Ryan – December 26, 2013
1076. Andorian,

“Why has my post on Star Trek V been censored here???”

I don’t know, but considering your other personalities here (TMMW, Spock’s Bangs, Who Cares, etc.) I’m taking great pleasure in the karma you are experiencing with your post dissappearing. :-)

1180. MJ - December 27, 2013

“Let me play devil’s advocate here & say, if it a choice between saving Earth & bringing new energy source back home or that we sympathize with savages who have no use for Unobtanium, then it is clear that Earth come first, nuke the savages back to the stone age!! In all of history, whenever an advanced civilization meet a primitive one, the primitive civilization is crushed or assimilated. This has happened before, and will happen again here in Earth or elsewhere.”

Very un-Star Trek like. You sound more like the Borg, then the Federation. You even used the word, “assimilated.” Sad!

So again, Avatar was a very Star Trek-like story. We are suppose to support the natives, just like we support the values, the prime directive, etc. etc, in the Star Trek series that we all love. We are not suppose to rape and pillage other planets in the Star Trek future that we all hope will come true — that is what the F’ing Klingons and Borg do, and we fight the good fight against that shit.

We don’t let the Horta die and steal it’s planet; we don’t let the Cloud Minders treat their workers as slaves; we don’t steal the Baku planet to make us immortal; we don’t let Admiral Marcus start his war — because we are better that that.

1181. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

1177. DiscoSpock

Perhaps they both work in the mining industry, or a related industry?

Too Funny, Disco! : )

1182. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

1180. MJ

“…we don’t let Admiral Marcus start his war — because we are better that that.”

Yeah, unless there is very overt and compelling national security reasons, right MJ?

1183. Ahmed - December 27, 2013

@1180. MJ

Unfortunately in real life, it is a different story. Countries on the other side of the world are being invaded for their oil & other resources. We look the other way when our friends in totalitarian governments commit mass murder. And only intervene when things get out of control & start to affect us.

Humanity is a long long way from Star Trek ideals.

1184. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1182

You missed the point in STID then, because Kirk, Spock, Scotty and company stopped Marcus and proved that in spite of a compelling national security reason, the Federations values were more important than selling out your morals.

You need to go see the film again. Like the movie or not, the Star Trek message was right there. Maybe you should invite Ahmed over and have him watch it with you, and throw in a viewing of The Best of Both Worlds so that Ahmed can be reeducated on why “assimilation” is not a good thing. ;-)

Am I talking with Stat Trek fans here today? Seem like Henry Kissinger here may be sock-puppeting with multiple names? :-(

1185. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1183

You are missing my point entirely. My point was that Avatar was very Star Trek-like in its message. That is the point. Avatar was suppose to provide this better message….

Sheesh!!!

1186. Ahmed - December 27, 2013

@MJ

Assimilation is a real political mechanism used by various civilizations.

Most recent example when the French occupied Algeria in 1830, they worked hard on assimilating the local population & it worked. Algerians now, speak French better than Arabic. Their culture is closer to French culture than Arabic culture. They are independent politically but still depend on the French on everything from education to the military. That is a real life assimilation of a primitive culture by an advanced one.

1187. Dave H - December 27, 2013

@MJ

I read you and I agree. It’s not really all that complex of a question that you are proposing to us. Avatar was very Star Trek-like in it’s message, and Star Trek fans, of all people, should embrace that.

1188. Ahmed - December 27, 2013

@MJ,

” Seem like Henry Kissinger here may be sock-puppeting with multiple names? :-(”

lol, leave the old man alone :)

1189. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

1184. MJ

I saw the point you were making, MJ. Funny response too.

That was a facetious remark I was making above @182, MJ, concerning some here that accept the false flag certainty in STiD but abhore the idea of it ever happening in real life say like 9-11 and so many other recent examples.

1190. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1186.

Sigh!

You are missing my point still….I am talking about a better future and a better way — that is presented to us in Star Trek and in Avatar. If you don’t like that view or agree with it, that is fine, but after all, this is a Star Trek website, so I guess I am making a mistake here in ASSUMING that people agree with and want a Star Trek future???

1191. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 27, 2013

Yeah, MJ. Who does’nt?

But you have to agree, Star Trek was always more than a tv show or a movie. It is a message to us all with each story.

Star Trek alsways had metaphor wrapped within it’s science fiction.
And you cannot deny that Star Trek used these plays as a means to open discussion about our own present day human condition.

Get a life. We are liviing it and it all relates to Star Trek in some way! : 0 : )

1192. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1189

Cool. You are not such a bad dude, after all. I don’t want to discuss 911 origins with you, but certainly, did I think we overreached after 911, and let our values suffer? Of course!

1193. MJ - December 27, 2013

@1191

TMMW, I agree 100%

Well said!

1194. Ahmed - December 27, 2013

@1190. MJ

oh ok, I was talking about our current times but I see what you mean now.

I like the utopian future in Star Trek, it was the thing that got me into Star Trek in the first place. Avatar, don’t think is presenting a utopian future.

I like Avatar. It was the only movie that I watched in 3D. The stunning visual effects are out of this world, sometime I put the blu-ray just to enjoy the beauty of Pandora.

Avatar 2 is coming December 2016. Paramount is better not release ST XIII around that time.

1195. MJ - December 27, 2013

“I like the utopian future in Star Trek, it was the thing that got me into Star Trek in the first place. Avatar, don’t think is presenting a utopian future.”

Agreed, but Avatar is saying NO to the status quo in a different sf future way. And the Avatar planet an life there is a different kind of utopia as well if you think about it.

OK, I think we are actually nearly on the same page here now.

I mean, my whole point here is that Avatar is one of the sf movies that has a lot of Star Trek type stuff and values in it. That is why I don’t get the negativity here from some on it?

1196. MJ - December 27, 2013

…I mean, Avatar is a poster child on why you need a Prime Directive.

1197. Red Dead Ryan - December 27, 2013

I agree that both unobtanium and dilithium crystals are fictional devices that serve different, but logical and scientifically plausible purposes in “Avatar” and “Star Trek”. Neither is more or less believable than the other.

Also, you have to remember that James Cameron is also a “Star Trek” fan, and so he obviously crafted a very Trek-like story.

It seems there are Trek snobs who like to tear down “Avatar” simply because it has made a lot more money than any of the Trek movies, while breaking new ground in visual effects and the depiction of a truly alien world. These are the same folks who keep reminding others to tolerate new and different ideas. A most fascinating contradiction on display here.

1198. Michael Hall - December 27, 2013

“Considering Bob’s embrace of rather complicated conspiracy theory, this complicated extortion story should be a surprise to no one. For it to work we need to believe a high ranking Starfleet Admiral has his own black ops budget, is responsible to no one in the chain of command, that civilian oversight of Starfleet doesn’t actually oversee anything, and that massive amounts of resources and manpower can be diverted to build massive spaceships and secret weapons and not a single person gives it a second thought. Yep, makes perfect sense to me….if this Federation is a totalitarian regime.”

Yep. Khan’s implication that Marcus needed an “uncivilized man from an uncivilized time” to do his dirty work for him was interesting thematically but belied not only by Marcus himself, but by the hundreds of 23rd century Starfleet officers and other personnel it must have taken to keep the Vengeance project afloat. Clearly, in the Abramsverse there’s big trouble in Paradise, and it’s been going on for quite some time.

1199. Red Dead Ryan - December 27, 2013

“Avatar” also warns about mass consumption, environmental exploitation, racism, and the military-industrial complex. It’s a movie that is more sophisticated than it appears on the surface, and so in this regard, deserves all the accolades it has gotten.

Contrary to the opinion of some on this site, the movie is about much more than the percieved “evil white conquerers versus the under-powered natives” criticisms that many here claim.

1200. Captain Slow - December 27, 2013

You guys are missing my point. I have no problem with sympathizing with characters. My problem with Avatar was that it felt like it was just telling me to sympathize without giving any reason beyond the fact that they’re outnumbered. And no, I didn’t prefer the bad guys, they were also annoying and unsympathetic (villains need a certain amount of sympathy).

You guys are right that it was a Star Trek-like story. In fact, the story it most resembles is Insurrection. The hero’s own government plans to steal an important resource from a planet of peaceful people and now the hero has to turn against his home and side with the race on this planet. Think about it. Both movies have a love interest for the hero. And then there are the names. Am I the only one who thinks that Na’vi and Ba’ku are similar?

Now when I said that I didn’t see anything ground-breaking in Avatar I could have phrased it better. It certainly advanced motion-capture and 3-D technology. But if the goal was to convince me that what I was looking at was real, then it failed. The aliens were consistently creepy, especially any scene where they were in the same shot as a human. They just didn’t look real to me.

It has nothing to do with jealousy, or political reasons. I’ll sum it up simply. I didn’t like having a message rammed down my throat (and yes, Star Trek has done that too. I never liked any of those episodes), I didn’t think the special effects were as amazing as everyone says, and the most ridiculous thing of all: why did all the alien animals have their nostrils by their armpits?!

1201. Garak's Pride - December 28, 2013

#1200

Captain Slow, maybe you need to see it again. Not much of what you have said here reminds me of what I took away from seeing Avatar?

And with some of the reasons you provided, it makes me wonder how you could like many Star Trek episodes?

And come one, they built an entire new and believable looking world. The CGI was undetectable — it looked freaking real, unlike for example the Hobbit movies, which have some scenes that look CGI. “Creepy looking aliens”? Really? Really, Captain Slow? It looked real to me, as no sf movie has ever looked, and looked since that movie – it was astounding!

1202. Garak's Pride - December 28, 2013

And additionally, I thought that Colonel Quartich was one of the best villains in movies in recent years; certainly a much better and more rounded villain that either Harrison or Nero in the last two Star Trek movies. Stephen Lang was just great.

1203. Captain Slow - December 28, 2013

Maybe it’s just me. Like I said earlier, I have done effects work. Knowing how some things are done I can see the CG more easily just like I’m sure one magician can see how another magician’s tricks are done. And I’m not going to see it again. I’ve got better things to do with my time.

I don’t see how the villains were interesting. Correct me if I’m wrong but the mineral they wanted was under the big tree. They then knocked the tree over and chased off the natives. They should now have what they want and yet they just kept on chasing the natives. Why?

I think everyone has to accept that some people will like it, some won’t. I can see that I’m probably in the minority, but I can live with that. If you liked it, I’m happy for you. But for me, there are so many better movies out there. And more impressive effects.

1204. Garak's Pride - December 28, 2013

@1202.

I get you have a different opinion and didn’t like the movie. I respect that.

That being said, please provide me the names of some movies that you think have better special effects than Avatar? I am frankly having a hard time believing this comment of yours, but am willing to hear you out on your examples?

1205. DiscoSpock - December 28, 2013

Garaks Pride,

I agree with you completely. There is a reason why Joe Leteri of WETA is the best special effects guru on the planet today. Avatar, the Apes films, The Two Towers and Return of the King, Man of Steel, etc. etc. And I believe he started his career working on ST6 at ILM.

This guy is hands-down the best in his field today.

1206. DiscoSpock - December 28, 2013

“Maybe it’s just me. Like I said earlier, I have done effects work. Knowing how some things are done I can see the CG more easily just like I’m sure one magician can see how another magician’s tricks are done. And I’m not going to see it again. I’ve got better things to do with my time.”

Ah, professional jealousy rears its ugly head.

“And I’m not going to see it again. I’ve got better things to do with my time.”

OK, we get it. You will NEVER watch it again under any circumstances.

That is sad. :-(

1207. Captain Slow - December 28, 2013

It’s definitely not professional jealousy. I’m not working in the industry, I do it as a hobby. Please, don’t make assumptions and accusations just because you disagree with my opinion.

And films that I feel had better effects would be the last two Star Trek films, Jurassic Park, and Tintin. And all four of those films had shots that I feel didn’t work. I’ve never seen a movie with perfect effects. And I’m not saying that the effects in Avatar were bad, they were good. The environments were probably the best I’ve seen. But my problem is with the digital characters. They just didn’t work for me. Given all the hype I was expecting something better.

Again, my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

1208. DiscoSpock - December 28, 2013

#1207

Wow! I mean, I like the ILM work in the two Star Trek movies a lot, but come on, Avatar advanced the state-of-the-art in special effects significantly, won the Academy Award for visual effects, and even more impressively, pretty much swept the Visual Effects Society (VES) awards in that year with 6 awards — awarded by the special effects industry peers.

Although nominated for an award each year, neither Star Trek movie won even one VES award — and again, these are the peers who are the visual effects industry experts, not hobbyists like yourself.

So again, the real experts in visual effects — the experts who actually work on these movies (versus hobbyists) — gave Avatar 6 VES awards, and both Star Trek movies — which you claim have better special effects than Avatar — both Star Trek movies combined won zero VES awards. Plus again, Avatar won the visual effects Oscar to zero for either ST movie in that category.

This is thus a definitive measure by the special effects industry peers here — not just my or your’s opinion.

It is what it is.

1209. Captain Slow - December 28, 2013

Okay, like I said, I’m probably in the minority with my opinion. But when I saw the aliens in Avatar, I didn’t believe them. CG humans/humanoids just aren’t quite there yet. And that isn’t just my opinion, it’s one shared by people who actually work with motion-capture.

As for the awards issue, I’m not expecting Into Darkness to win the Oscar for effects. ILM is no longer the most popular effects house and that seems to have a lot to do with these kinds of things.

But I think I’ve hogged enough space on this thread and we’re waaaay off-topic. So I’m done with this discussion. Can we move on to something more interesting?

1210. dmduncan - December 28, 2013

1209. Captain Slow – December 28, 2013

Okay, like I said, I’m probably in the minority with my opinion. But when I saw the aliens in Avatar, I didn’t believe them. CG humans/humanoids just aren’t quite there yet. And that isn’t just my opinion, it’s one shared by people who actually work with motion-capture.

***

Oh that’s my opinion too. The Avatar aliens didn’t live up to the hype. They looked cartoonish. Like PT Barnum and Don King, James Cameron knows how to promote his work, and like no one else he knows how to make the most epic sappy movies on Earth that hit people in their Go Out And See It buttons.

I didn’t find Cameron’s materialistic philosophy that spirituality is physical and requires computerlike interfacing either interesting or authentic.

That was one of Cameron’s more ignorant and gag-inducing ideas.

1211. MJ - December 28, 2013

DM Duncan = Film School Graduate, Movie Maker

Captain Slow = Special Effects Expert

Guys, maybe you both know too much to accept what you see? You are too learned in the craft, and notice thing the rest of us don’t.

I respect both of you for you craft, but at the same time, I feel kind of sad for both of you in that this enables you not to experience the Avatar the way the vast majority of the world has. I totally bought into the Aliens as real and fully suspended my disbelief when I saw this movie I think about 5 or 6 times in the theater.

1212. MJ - December 28, 2013

“CG humans/humanoids just aren’t quite there yet. And that isn’t just my opinion, it’s one shared by people who actually work with motion-capture.”

Your stretching this a bit more than the prevailing opinion suggests. CGI Aliens in humanoid-distorted shapes have been credible since the Star Wars prequels. And WETA’s motion capture, pioneered the more realistic aliens/creatures that we saw in LOTR, Avatar and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes — and it’s no accident that those three movies all won the special effects academy award.

Humans themselves — yes, that is not quite there yet. So if that is what you were really trying to say, then I agree with this.

1213. dmduncan - December 28, 2013

1211. MJ – December 28, 2013

Well that’s what I do every time I see a movie for the first time. But there’s no guarantee my initial opinion is going to hold up after repeat viewings.

What goes wrong in Avatar for me is the same thing that goes wrong with every James Cameron film for me, and which does not happen for films that make it on my favorites list no matter how many times I see them.

I always give James Cameron a chance. I don’t assume his next movie is going to do what annoys me about his previous movie.

The one positive thing I can say about Cameron is that he’s a technical innovator with a good sense for the epic. What I can’t say about him is that there’s much beyond the showmanship that entices me to return for anything beyond the technical or the visual. I would never confuse in substance anything Cameron does with anything another master of the epic, David Lean, did, for instance, quite apart from the SF subject matter.

And truth be told, that is probably the sort of moviemaker Cameron set himself out to be. I can see (and have seen) Cameron taking credit for making some of the highest grossing films of all time, but I doubt that even in the privacy of this thoughts he thinks he makes some of the best movies ever made.

So I think Cameron is the type of movie maker he wants to be. If he privately thinks that what he does ranks his work as among the best ever produced, he’s very wise to keep those thoughts to himself.

1214. dmduncan - December 28, 2013

Most convincing CGI I’ve seen so far is in The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. I had NO idea while watching that movie that Brad Pitt was mostly CGI for a good chunk of the movie, and didn’t believe it when I heard it afterwards.

1215. MJ - December 28, 2013

DM,

I respect your opinion. Personal tastes differ here with me, as I pretty much like most everything Cameron has ever done. He successfully takes me to new and wild places, and if the plots are bit formulaic and predictable, with an overly obvious message, then that’s fine, because (1) I am a Star Trek fan, so I am use to that in my scifi; and (2) his movies and actors execute the predictably formulaic plots so well, that it’s a please to watch anyway.

And I do think he sleeps more soundly at night than George Lucas does. :-))

1216. Marja - December 28, 2013

I could have embraced the “message” of Avatar if it hadn’t been spelled out to me in giant red letters. If I hadn’t already seen this message in “Dances with Wolves” and other movies about a disillusioned white guy “rescuing” an indigenous culture.

All that aside, I fully embraced the Na’avi [being a cat lover; the Na'avi moved with a similar grace], and enjoyed the beauties of Pandora as presented. The 3D was STUNNING, unlike any I’d ever seen before … or since. The two performances that resonated with me were Zoe Saldana’s and Sigourney Weaver’s. Sam Worthington was miscast in my opinion. Too bad Cameron did not get a better actor there.

1217. boy - December 28, 2013

1103. Red Dead Ryan – December 26, 2013
All,

I saw “The Hobbit 2″ a week ago, and I can say its much better than the first movie, which I still like. The movie has generally gotten good to great ratings from critics and audiences. 75 and 86 averages on Rotten Tomatoes, respectively.

I also agree that the “negative Nelly” Curious Cadet needs to stop with the asinine anti-STID “observations”.

STID is by far the most successful Trek movie to date worldwide!

CASE CLOSED!!!!!

————————————————–

st09 and the motion picture still beats STID once you take away stid 3d ticket price and imax ticket price.

1218. Marja - December 28, 2013

1150 Phil, I’d be thrilled if someone with Cameron’s “weight” in the industry did Trek. I would NOT be thrilled if Cameron wrote it though.

1219. Marja - December 28, 2013

1183. Ahmed @1180. MJ, “Unfortunately in real life, it is a different story. Countries on the other side of the world are being invaded for their oil & other resources. We look the other way when our friends in totalitarian governments commit mass murder. And only intervene when things get out of control & start to affect us. Humanity is a long long way from Star Trek ideals.”

Indeed, Ahmed, but I think MJ’s view is right, that “we can do better.” At least some group in world society can do better, but it seems there is always some element of society that reverts. I had had such hopes for our Western society, only to see them dashed under the new regimes in the US Congress and in terrorism. Who among us jaded Americans is not impressed as hell with the young people demonstrating for the right to vote, at the possible cost of their lives?

Orci/Kurtzman tell the story in the AU of how Marcus saw himself as the keen-eyed opponent of any threats to the Federation, a worldview through which he lost the ideals that took him into Starfleet in the first place.

1220. Marja - December 28, 2013

1197. Red Dead Ryan – December 27, 2013
I agree that both unobtanium and dilithium crystals are fictional devices that serve different, but logical and scientifically plausible purposes in “Avatar” and “Star Trek”. Neither is more or less believable than the other.
Also, you have to remember that James Cameron is also a “Star Trek” fan, and so he obviously crafted a very Trek-like story.

Ummm, yeah, one that’s an awful lot like a few I’ve seen, “Devil in the Dark” for one. A misunderstood and underestimated race, protecting their own existence.

Only, 48 years after the original story, with lots of cool, admittedly, stunning effects, environmental features and creature designs.

1221. Marja - December 28, 2013

“Considering Bob’s embrace of rather complicated conspiracy theory, this complicated extortion story should be a surprise to no one. For it to work we need to believe a high ranking Starfleet Admiral has his own black ops budget, is responsible to no one in the chain of command, that civilian oversight of Starfleet doesn’t actually oversee anything, and that massive amounts of resources and manpower can be diverted to build massive spaceships and secret weapons and not a single person gives it a second thought. Yep, makes perfect sense to me….if this Federation is a totalitarian regime.”

Yep, I’ve been saying this from the beginning. Except the totalitarian regime part.

I have been reading an article in the New Yorker about the NSA’s surveillance program. From this you can see that, even with oversight, a zealous defender of a program [Cheney for one] can drive policy through the oversight committees in the Senate and House.

Now, Orci/Kurtzman are asking us to believe the Federation Council is as dysfunctional [or perhaps as inattentive to reality in favor of politics] as the US Congress, but remember, they probably do have some fearful members, i.e., people near the area of Nero’s incursion into their space. The Vulcans may be driving a lot of internal policy in the time since the destruction of their planet.

All this considered, however, the paranoia would have to have begun with Nero’s first incursion and destruction of the USS Kelvin, b/c a ship the size and expense of Vengeance could not possibly be constructed in a year, and nor could the budget for it and its personnel and program.

A lot can be said, however, regarding Black Ops and the people who run these programs. And the paranoia that can infiltrate a perfectly lovely society when lives are directly threatened/lost.

1222. Marja - December 28, 2013

1199. Red Dead Ryan, “Avatar” also warns about mass consumption, environmental exploitation, racism, and the military-industrial complex. It’s a movie that is more sophisticated than it appears on the surface, and so in this regard, deserves all the accolades it has gotten. Contrary to the opinion of some on this site, the movie is about much more than the percieved “evil white conquerers versus the under-powered natives” criticisms that many here claim.

OK, sure, I’ve made that latter criticism myself. I realize the movie is about all those other things. It simply hits us over the head with the messages. A good thing for a mass audience, I suppose, but a message movie with a recycled plot? I think Cameron is capable of doing better, and of hiring good writers also. That’s what disappointed me. Again, the technical aspects, and some of the acting, were most excellent.

The implication that the Pandorans couldn’t rescue themselves without the help of the Marine’s avatar is in itself somewhat racist, don’t you think?

1223. DiscoSpock - December 28, 2013

@1221

“I realize the movie is about all those other things. It simply hits us over the head with the messages.”

You mean just like Star Trek?

“a message movie with a recycled plot?”

You mean like a Star Trek movie?

“The implication that the Pandorans couldn’t rescue themselves without the help of the Marine’s avatar is in itself somewhat racist, don’t you think?”

Ah, you mean like in dozens of Star Trek episodes?

;-)

Again, Avatar is something that Star Trek fans should love. I’m not getting the double-standard here from some of you?

1224. DiscoSpock - December 28, 2013

@1215

“Personal tastes differ here with me, as I pretty much like most everything Cameron has ever done. He successfully takes me to new and wild places, and if the plots are bit formulaic and predictable, with an overly obvious message, then that’s fine, because (1) I am a Star Trek fan, so I am use to that in my scifi; and (2) his movies and actors execute the predictably formulaic plots so well, that it’s a please to watch anyway.”

Yes, exactly — “I am a Star Trek fan, so I am use to that in my scifi”– Avatar is megabudget Trek movie at heart. If any fans should be embracing Avatar, it should be Trek fans.

And think about it — Avatar shows why you need a Prime Directive in the future, and the dangers of letting our raping of our Earth continue.

1225. K-7 - December 28, 2013

Hey Marja,

You gotta admit, when you say the message is too obvious, question if the lower tech aliens need bailing out is racist, say the writing isn’t all that great, say the plots are recycled; well, you certainly sound like someone who would not like Star Trek at all.

Because that is all quintessentially Star Trek, my friend.

1226. Marja - December 28, 2013

1225 K-7, So you are limiting “quintessential” Star Trek to overt messaging, poor messaging, recycled plots?

The best of Star Trek is none of these things. Yes, its cheesier episodes, which we love in spite of themselves, are sometimes overtly “message-y” with plots recycled from Shakespeare and Forbidden Planet and other great stories, and some from not-so-great stories, and some from pure silliness ["Spock's Brain" - perhaps based on an Ed Wood movie?]. We also need to take 1960s technology into account.

K-7, many of my personal values are founded on the values expressed in TOS. As are many of my critical thinking skills.

Yes, I am indeed a Star Trek fan. But the things I love can often be better, thus my criticisms of Star Trek; and “King of the World” billionaire moviemaker James Cameron can certainly do better, too.

1227. Marja - December 28, 2013

DiscoSpock, see my comments at 1226.

You will perhaps recall that some people told us that “true” Star Trek fans could not possibly love the JJ Abrams movies?

And the s**tstorm that came of that?

We all like different things, my friend. All I’m saying is that a guy like Cameron, easily the richest filmmaker, one of the most famous [deservedly or undeservedly so] and someone talented enough to know how to hire good writers and good actors should hire better writers than himself and a better leading man. IMHO.

1228. K-7 - December 28, 2013

@1225 / Marja

I think you are missing my point. I’m not saying that Star Trek is poor or bad because of those things, I am saying that Star Trek (and by extension, Avatar) are still great even thought they included those elements.

Take ST4. Great Trek film most of us love — great Trek Film. But — overt environmental message like a brick slammed into our brains, tired old time travel – fix the past recycled plot, some cheesy writing with 20th century humorous situations for the crew, Kirk saves the girl again thing, completely predictable ending.

Avatar – same type of deal. But again, you and others appear to have a double-standard for Cameron’s films for reasons that are unclear to me?

1229. Red Dead Ryan - December 28, 2013

The Na’Vi are the types of aliens we should be seeing more of in “Star Trek” as opposed to recycling bumpy-headed, latex-laden humanoids we have already seen dozens of times before, or the lazy non-humans who look exactly like humans, aka the Betazoids and the Ba’Ku

And many of James Cameron’s movies, like the first two “Terminator” films, “Aliens” and “Avatar”, are generally considered among the greatest movies of all time. Certainly in the top fifty.

1230. Dave H. - December 28, 2013

Red Dead Ryan, K-7, Disco Spock

The sad thing here to me is that the jealousy from some ST fans for Cameron’s movies is so subtle, that I don’t think that these these fans even realize that they have this grudge.

This explains the inconsistency in the criticisms here. These fan’s start bringing up what they don’t like about Avatar, and without even realizing it, their reasons cover a litany of things that, without a doubt, are in fact major elements of the Star Trek movies and series that they all love.

And they don’t even realize that they are doing this.

1231. Marja - December 28, 2013

K-7, I got your point, I think. You’re saying that because we excuse the dumber aspects of Trek we should give Cameron a free pass.

And I say, “nay.” We should be able to expect more of Cameron. He has the power of the entire industry behind him, while Trek has never had that kind of budget available. I say “for them that has more, we expect more.” That is the reason for my “double standard.”

Now that Cameron has established the “universe” of Avatar, I’m hoping that he moves beyond the fantastic SFX and universe environment to a story that does not seem so … well, obvious, even accounting for all the messages. And I do heartily wish he’d find a new leading man, but he probably won’t.

E.g., I should be able expect ST3 to be better than STiD because ST is now a fairly major film property. But CBS/Paramount probably don’t see things the way I do, alas.

1232. Who cares - December 28, 2013

@Red Dead Ryan. The thing is opinions about movies and which ones are good and bad are entirely subjective. I mean I enjoyed Terminator 2, thought Terminator 1 was a fairly average 80s action flick, enjoyed Aliens but not enough to watch it again after my first viewing, and I also think Avatar is a beautiful but dumb movie, despite the message, which I think was done better in District 9 anyway.

I watched Gravity this year despite the fact that I dislike both Clooney and Bullock (outside of Dusk til Dawn and Demolition Man) and found it somewhat enjoyable until the whole Clooney death scene which was just garbage (and factually incorrect check it out). I watched it because my best friend was telling me how great a movie it was and how good it was and knowing him and his usual tastes in movies I was curious (Gravity is WAY outside his normal picks).

I can’t even agree on what movies are good and what are bad with my own family (outside of Trek and some others we all agree on) and I truly doubt its really any different for anyone else in the world. Each person has their own tastes, and no two people anywhere will ever match up 100 percent across the board so really why do any of us even care what other people think about movies?

Make up your own minds what you like and ignore anyone who gives you crap for it I say.

1233. Red Dead Ryan - December 28, 2013

I think we should expect more from Trek. It has been around a lot longer than Cameron has been making movies, and with a ton more material produced.

Trek has a long history of copying itself, as well as not reaching outside of its zone. James Cameron may recycle some old ideas, but at least he expands on and modernizes them while breaking new ground in visual and special effects.

1230. Dave H.

I completely agree.

1234. K-7 - December 28, 2013

@1231.

Well, we are making progress at least, Marja. I think you just acknowledged that you agree with me when I said that you had a double-standard for Avatar as compared to Star Trek?

I don’t get that just because he’s Jame’s Cameron and has more money that he can’t product a sf movie that is comparable to a Star Trek story, but at least I understand you better now. Thanks

I don’t think Cameron owes us anything. If he wants to make a mega-Star-Trek-like movie like Avatar, I commend him.

1235. K-7 - December 28, 2013

“Dusk til Dawn”

Wow, “Who Cares,” you like that crap movie, but don’t like Aliens?

I’d say you were smoking crack, but I think you are actually serious? ;-)

1236. Dave H - December 28, 2013

K-7,

Remember though, Selma Hayek does a table dance in her underwear in From Dusk til Dawn.

And that is the only thing I enjoyed about that trailer park trash of a movie. That was one of the dumbest horror flicks of all time.

1237. Andorian - December 28, 2013

Time out !

Did I just really read here that someone thinks From Dusk Till Dawn is better than Aliens?

What the F !

1238. Red Dead Ryan - December 28, 2013

“Who Cares” also said “Gravity” is not a very good movie. There is a distinct lack of credibility with this guy.

1239. Red Dead Ryan - December 28, 2013

My god, he also claims “The Terminator” is merely an “average ’80’s movie”.

1240. Michael Hall - December 29, 2013

Well, I also do CGI as a hobby and I personally thought the visual depiction of the Na’vi, as well as the creature and other design aspects of Pandora, was just awesome. (As did the other members of my 3DS max user group, some of whom are indeed industry professionals.) It far surpasses anything that’s ever been done on Trek, Abramsverse or no.

I usually respect dmduncan’s opinion, but his statement that a built-in USB port is apparently some kind of a prerequisite for spirituality or an appreciation for nature in AVATAR is just putting words in Jim Cameron’s mouth. No character or situation in the film ever asserts any such thing.

As to the film’s politics, yes, they were in some ways naive and simplistic. (As others have pointed out, for Trek fans that just makes it 1966-69 all over again.) Certainly, snark like “Dances with Smurfs” wasn’t completely unwarranted. But at least the film seemed to have pissed-off the right sort of people. I remember most distinctly a critic’s lamenting that Cameron had managed the unpatriotic feat of getting post-9/11 audiences to root against American soldiers. Aside from being untrue (the troopers in the film are corporate mercenaries, not soldiers), my question to this moral cretin would be: what’s so uniquely American about “My country, right or wrong”?

1241. Phil - December 29, 2013

I suspect the idea of loyal opposition is foreign to many. It’s perfectly acceptable to support the troops (or anyone who puts themselves in harms way, for that matter), and to question the policies and procedures that put them in harms way. I started to volunteer at USO about a year ago, and had the opportunity to look a bunch of nineteen year old Marines in the eye on their way out – the realization of the possibility that some of these guys could die weighed heavily on me, and certainly reinforced the point that in todays society, we do take what these guys do for granted. Even more so the armchair warriors we elect to lead us, who tend to spout off that all the worlds problems can be resolved with a little application of force. Personally, it should be a requirement of anyone seeking office that they should put in some time at USO, Wounded Warriors, or any other volunteer organization that serves those who serve – so they are personally aware of the consequences of problem solving by use of force.

1242. Michael Hall - December 29, 2013

Know what my definition of heroism is? Hugh Thompson and the members and his helicopter crew–hardened soldiers who were brought in as air support for Charlie Company until they saw women and children being butchered at the hamlet of My Lai, did what they could to stop it, and to report the heinous crimes of William Calley and his men afterwards. For that they faced opprobrium from their fellow officers, and accusations of treason from Congress. But even as active participants in the war–and probable supporters of it–they knew where the moral line had to be drawn, and acted with with the conviction that was the real credit to their service. Just as Jake Sully does in AVATAR.

1243. Curious Cadet - December 29, 2013

Just looking at the box office. Frozen easily soared to an estimated $248 million this weekend, and The Hobbit is estimated to earn over $30 million to reach over $190 million. Given that I’m sure the Hobbit has at least another $40 million before it closes next year. It might even hit close to $220 million by January 1. Not surprising considering these are the only two real quality family friendly movies in the box office right now. Everything else is aimed mainly at adults. I can’t say I’m that interested in the Hobbit, but I think I will have to check out Frozen now, since kids movies have to be fairly entertaining for adults to hit these kinds of box office numbers …

1244. Curious Cadet - December 29, 2013

^^^^MORE

Just noticed that Boxofficemojo is projecting Thor has passed WWZ domestically, which means it currently ranks #11 for the year, with STID in 10th place behind Frozen now. Surprising too since Thor is still earning over $150k with only about 319 theaters nationwide. So it looks like by January 1st, The Hobbit will replace Thor at #11, and will knock STID out of 10th place for 2013 Boxoffice sometime in January. Thor though has been knocked out of the race by the crush of major holiday releases and will likely close prematurely.

Interesting year at the box office.

1245. Red Dead Ryan - December 29, 2013

Curious Cadet,

Enough already. You keep spamming the same comments about how STID will be knocked out of the top ten. Big fracking deal. Hundreds of movies are released each year, and finishing eleventh for the year is really good.

Please take this negative stuff elsewhwere.

1246. MJ - December 29, 2013

Congratulations, Curious Cadet. I know STID slipping out of the Top 10 is a huge moment of happiness for you and your family, so I am sure you are out celebrating with them today:

“FESTIVAL.FESTIVAL.FESTIVAL…FESTIVAL.FESTIVAL.FESTIVAL…FESTIVAL.FESTIVAL.FESTIVAL…FESTIVAL.FESTIVAL.FESTIVAL…”

Well done, Curious Cadet. I am beaming with pride for you! Well done!!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1244. Curious Cadet – December 29, 2013
^^^^MORE

Just noticed that Boxofficemojo is projecting Thor has passed WWZ domestically, which means it currently ranks #11 for the year, with STID in 10th place behind Frozen now. Surprising too since Thor is still earning over $150k with only about 319 theaters nationwide. So it looks like by January 1st, The Hobbit will replace Thor at #11, and will knock STID out of 10th place for 2013 Boxoffice sometime in January. Thor though has been knocked out of the race by the crush of major holiday releases and will likely close prematurely.

Interesting year at the box office.

1247. Curious Cadet - December 29, 2013

Wow. Frozen has done extraordinarily well. I must say I am stunned by how well it has done worldwide. It just passed STID worldwide to place 13th, knocking STID to 14th. I truly thought STID was going to hold the same 13th place ST09 took for the 2009 Boxoffice. I don’t see anything else beating it worldwide though.

I’m sad to see STID is going to slip out of the top 10 domestically though. For a while there I thought Phil might be right and it would stick at 9th, only two down from where ST09 finished in 2009.

Definitely have to go see Frozen now.

I’m also surprised Wolf of Wallstreet isn’t doing better for Paramount, as it seemed to be getting a lot of buzz.

1248. MJ - December 29, 2013

Michael, this is a great example. Thanks!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1242. Michael Hall – December 29, 2013
Know what my definition of heroism is? Hugh Thompson and the members and his helicopter crew–hardened soldiers who were brought in as air support for Charlie Company until they saw women and children being butchered at the hamlet of My Lai, did what they could to stop it, and to report the heinous crimes of William Calley and his men afterwards. For that they faced opprobrium from their fellow officers, and accusations of treason from Congress. But even as active participants in the war–and probable supporters of it–they knew where the moral line had to be drawn, and acted with with the conviction that was the real credit to their service. Just as Jake Sully does in AVATAR.

1249. MJ - December 29, 2013

@1240

“Well, I also do CGI as a hobby and I personally thought the visual depiction of the Na’vi, as well as the creature and other design aspects of Pandora, was just awesome. (As did the other members of my 3DS max user group, some of whom are indeed industry professionals.) It far surpasses anything that’s ever been done on Trek, Abramsverse or no.
I usually respect dmduncan’s opinion, but his statement that a built-in USB port is apparently some kind of a prerequisite for spirituality or an appreciation for nature in AVATAR is just putting words in Jim Cameron’s mouth. No character or situation in the film ever asserts any such thing.”

Indeed! Well said!

1250. MJ - December 29, 2013

“I’m sad to see STID is going to slip out of the top 10 domestically though. For a while there I thought Phil might be right and it would stick at 9th, only two down from where ST09 finished in 2009.”

Realizing how broken up you must be over this is now bringing tears to my eyes as well….

1251. Who cares - December 29, 2013

Wow K-7 RDR etc. did you not read the last line of my post @1232? You know the part where I said make up your own minds. I also never said that I though Dusk til Dawn was better than Aliens I just said its the only Clooney movie I enjoyed prior to Gravity, and while I enjoyed Aliens I did not enjoy it enough to re-watch, big difference there, one is something I said and the other isn’t. I also said I enjoyed Gravity until I got to the Clooney death scene which was wildly inaccurate on a scientific level as has been reported by numerous news stories, I never said anything else disparaging about the movie, that is all you guys putting words in my keyboard that I did not type.

I stand by my opinion of Terminator 1 though, utterly average 80 action movie fare, bad script, horrible acting (as always) from Arnold, etc. I am a big Terminator fan, I even liked the Sarah Connor Chronicles, but the first movie is wholly a product of its era.

1252. K-7 - December 29, 2013

“I stand by my opinion of Terminator 1 though, utterly average 80 action movie fare, bad script, horrible acting (as always) from Arnold, etc. I am a big Terminator fan, I even liked the Sarah Connor Chronicles, but the first movie is wholly a product of its era.”

W O W

Did you just really say this? wtf?

1253. Garak's Pride - December 29, 2013

@Who Cares

You are joking, right?

I mean, that was the one single role in Arnie’s career that he excelled in. He was perfect for that role — steely, unemotional, scary, and unstoppable robotic like force. He was outstanding in Terminator.

No offense guy, but your critiques on movies and acting are severely lacking in substance and plain old common sense.

1254. Red Dead Ryan - December 29, 2013

“The Terminator” was made on a low budget of $5 million in1984. Yet, it starred relatively unknown actors Arnold Schwarzenegger and Linda Hamilton and didn’t get much hype upon release. But word of mouth spread, and the movie became a classic. The movie still holds up really well thirty years on, thanks to James Cameron’s direction, and the late Stan Winston’s ingenious, and fantastical endoskeleton and make-up effects.

To call the movie “average” is just silly and nonsensical.

1255. Garak's Pride - December 29, 2013

… I just checked on Rotten Tomatoes on The Terminator. I see something here that I HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE on RT:

100% RT Rating; Fresh Reviews 47, Rotten 0

Again, I have never seen this before — a unanimous loving of this movie by all the critics — that is pretty much unheard of on RT.

Here are a few quotes on Arnie’s performance — in reading through many of the RT Top Critics review, to a person, they praised Arnies performance and the casting of him in this role:

Variety: “The shotgun-wielding Schwarzenegger is perfectly cast”

Slant: “Arnold Schwarzenegger, quite perfectly cast as the flesh-covered cyborg”

CinemaCrazed: “Schwarzenegger is at his best in one of his few turns as a villain in this dark and often sinister horror film….”

ReelViews: “Cameron transformed every one of Schwarzenegger’s perceived negatives into strengths and, in the process, re-defined him in Hollywood’s eyes.”

Q Network: “Taking advantage of his sheer bulk and sizable screen presence without requiring any emoting, the Terminator plays up all of Arnold’s best screen qualities and plays down his weaknesses. To his credit, though, Schwarzenegger did not just play the role as a dull robot, but rather as a cryptic, fiercely intelligent and unstoppable killing machine. Watch his performance more than once, and you will realize the many subtleties that he brought to the role and how the most minor body movements add to the sensation that you are watching a machine trying to emulate human movements”

1256. MJ - December 29, 2013

Who Cares,

Dude, sometime someone here says something so out of the ballpark, so outrageous, so way out there, that it causes them to lose credibility forever on this site with the community here.

You, my friend, are getting dangerously close to that situation here with your inexplicably dumb-ass comments on The Terminator (1984) classic, on top of some of your other recent “way out there” opinions.

Sure, you are entitled to your opinion; but we, the community of Trekmove.com are also entitled to think that your opinions are “wackjob opinions”, and therefore that will lead most of us to not really take much of what you say seriously in the future.

You are severely damaging your own credibility here, dude.

1257. Red Dead Ryan - December 29, 2013

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is entitled to be wrong. And everyone is entitled to face criticism whenever they are proven to be wrong.

“Who Cares” has been proven wrong here, and has to accept responsibility for his errors in facts and judgments.

1258. Red Shirt Diaries - December 29, 2013

The Terminator is an average 80’s action movie? Did I just really read that crap here?

Who Cares, you should change your name to “Who in the Hell am I Kidding?”

This replaces Keachick’s “Khan is not Khan” brain-fart theory as the dumbest thing I have ever heard on this site.

And if I really believed something that dumb, I would have the common sense to not share that opinion publicly.

1259. Who cares - December 29, 2013

You guys say I am wrong, that is your opinion, you quote movie critics, people who I have never even bothered to devote one single minute of my time to, I have found in my nearly 40 years on this planet that I do not agree with them more than say 1-5 percent of the time so their opinions are completely without value to me.

You guys say I am “damaging my credibility”. Why? Because I don’t agree with the majority? What makes the majority automatically right?

Going back to some 80s movies I remember when Willow and The Princess Bride came out. Both reviewed by Siskel and Ebert, one got a good review, one got a bad review, both are classics IMO but if I let critics determine what I watched I would have never seen one of them.

If you all want to discount my opinions because they don’t agree with yours or because they don’t agree with the majority or the critics then I just have to say whoop dee friggin doo. Despite my disagreements with a large number of you on a large range of subjects I have never been so closed minded as to tell someone that their opinion is lacking credibility.

Good job on the epic IDIC fail guys.

1260. Red Dead Ryan - December 29, 2013

Who Cares,

If you had just said something like “I don’t like “The Terminator” because it’s not to my tastes even though it was well made”, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We’d understand your point and move on.

Instead, you referred to the movie as being “average”. Which it isn’t. The vast majority of folks who have seen the movie have enjoyed it immensely.

You are factually wrong in calling the movie average, and you need to own up to your mistake.

1261. Marja - December 29, 2013

11240, I usually respect dmduncan’s opinion, but his statement that a built-in USB port is apparently some kind of a prerequisite for spirituality or an appreciation for nature in AVATAR is just putting words in Jim Cameron’s mouth. No character or situation in the film ever asserts any such thing.”

I think duncan was referring to the moment when Neytiri uses certain strands of her hair to “interface” with the source tree.

1262. K-7 - December 29, 2013

@1261

But why would that be an negative on Cameron???

1263. K-7 - December 29, 2013

Re: Who Cares

“you quote movie critics, people who I have never even bothered to devote one single minute of my time to, I have found in my nearly 40 years on this planet that I do not agree with them more than say 1-5 percent of the time so their opinions are completely without value to me.”

I think it was quite a bit stronger than a reviewer or two. 47 out of 47 reviewers rated The Terminator as Ripe. I mean, I get that your don’t like critics, and I don’t pay much attention to them either, but come on — 47 out of 47 !!!! That’s getting to the point where qualitative becomes quantitative — its nearly a fact, as a regression analysis would show conclusively at that point.

Again, 47 out of 47 !!!!!

1264. Red Dead Ryan - December 29, 2013

#1261.

“I think duncan was referring to the moment when Neytiri uses certain strands of her hair to “interface” with the source tree.”

This isn’t really all that different from when Spock used certain fingers to mind-meld with the Horta. Or on that episode of DS9 where the changling interfaced with the Defiant to hijack the ship. Not sure why people here are picking apart another aspect of “Avatar” that really isn’t all that dissimilar with anything we have seen in “Star Trek”???

All this nitpicking is ridiculous, and is an example of the double-standard that some Trekkies have towards other sci-fi sources.

1265. Garak's Pride - December 29, 2013

All,

I’ve just reviews five different lists of the greatest sf movies of all time, and The Terminator was in the Top 10 on all five lists, and typically placed between 6 and 9.

Additionally, on IMDB, The Terminator rates an 8.1 (ST2009 rates an 8.0, WOK rates a 7,7, Blade Runner rates an 8.2), and for the fan ratings on RT, The Terminator rates an 88 (ST2009 rates a 91, WOK rates a 90, Blade Runner rates a 91).

So in terms of public lists, The Terminator is generally considered one of the Top 10 best sf movies of all time. And in terms of fan reviews/ratings, The Terminator is typically rates in the same level as ST2009, WOK and Blade Runner.

So, “Who Cares,” your opinion not only completely disagrees ubiquitously with critics, it also is an extreme minority opinion in regards to fan reviews as well. And, moreover, across the public domain, The Terminator is generally considered to be one of the Top 10 sf movies of all time — OF ALL TIME !

So that is why people here are reacting so strongly to your very odd opinion on The Terminator. It’s like you have an opinion that the sun may not rise tomorrow — nobody is buying what you are selling, guy.

When you say something so outrageous as this, people are going to call you on it.

1266. Red Dead Ryan - December 29, 2013

#1264. Garak’s Pride

Wow! That’s some good research you did! I think we just put this argument to bed.

CASE CLOSED!!!!

1267. Garak's Pride - December 29, 2013

Re: Read Dead Ryan

Why are people being critical of the hair strands natural connection? Don’t get all the hate? It’s a neat idea for a sf movie, and with hair coming out of the head of a being, it actually makes some common sense for where on a being such an appendage would best be placed.

Do we always have to just have the latex-costumed simple humanoids from Star Trek? Can’t we have something a little more original once in awhile?

1268. Red Dead Ryan - December 29, 2013

And let’s not forget that publications such as SciFi Now and Empire has that movie ranked high, as well.

1269. Red Dead Ryan - December 29, 2013

#1266.

“Do we always have to just have the latex-costumed simple humanoids from Star Trek? Can’t we have something a little more original once in awhile?”

If I had a dime for every person who clamors for more Klingons, I would be the richest guy in the world.

The Klingons have been seen dozens of times. And the vast majority of aliens in all of “Star Trek” are either humanoid, artificial humanoids, or changlings who take the form of humanoids. In most cases, all there is is a piece of latex plastered to their heads, or their skin is painted another color. Species 8472 was great — they were clearly alien — until that episode where they disguised themselves as humans, and revealed to be not really all that different, phychologically and emotionally.

I think there are fans here who are jealous that “Star Trek” may not be as innovative as other sci-fi properties, and that to feel better and to elevate Trek, they tear down movies like “Avatar”, “Star Wars”, etc.

1270. MJ - December 29, 2013

@Who Cares

“If you all want to discount my opinions because they don’t agree with yours or because they don’t agree with the majority or the critics then I just have to say whoop dee friggin doo. Despite my disagreements with a large number of you on a large range of subjects I have never been so closed minded as to tell someone that their opinion is lacking credibility.”

Actually, I would appreciate it very much that if I ever come up with an opinion as full of shit as your Terminator one, if you would please give me the written equivalent of “smacking me upside my head” to straighten me out. Or at least this would get me to shut up so that I could stop embarrassing myself here.

@RDR

“If you had just said something like “I don’t like “The Terminator” because it’s not to my tastes even though it was well made”, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We’d understand your point and move on. Instead, you referred to the movie as being “average”. Which it isn’t. The vast majority of folks who have seen the movie have enjoyed it immensely. You are factually wrong in calling the movie average, and you need to own up to your mistake.”

Exactly! Throwing out this comment the way he did like that on a movie beloved by 99.9% of sf fans was just not cool. It was completely unwelcome, and it has caused Who Cares to pretty much lose all credibility here going forward.

1271. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 30, 2013

1251. Who cares

I was trying to escape any mention of a spoiler in the Gravity comments above. You ruined part of the surprise for me. But I will still eventually see it.

However, I do support your right to an opinion, and other here should not say you’ve lost ALL credibility, but since you just spoiled a portion of Gravity for me, perhaps you SHOULD consider changing your screen name to “whoop dee friggin doo.”

1272. I am not Herbert - December 30, 2013

Terminator is a CLASSIC of the genre.

1273. I am not Herbert - December 30, 2013

…little bit concerned that they are re-doing Robocop… hope it does the original justice… (another CLASSIC) =)

1274. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

@1271. TrekMadeMeWonder

“1251. Who cares

I was trying to escape any mention of a spoiler in the Gravity comments above. You ruined part of the surprise for me. But I will still eventually see it. ”

Agreed.

@Who cares, since we don’t have spoiler tag on this site, please be more careful about posting spoilers for movies that aren’t out on blu-ray yet.

1275. dmduncan - December 30, 2013

1240. Michael Hall – December 29, 2013

I usually respect dmduncan’s opinion, but his statement that a built-in USB port is apparently some kind of a prerequisite for spirituality or an appreciation for nature in AVATAR is just putting words in Jim Cameron’s mouth. No character or situation in the film ever asserts any such thing.

***

I didn’t even slightly imply that a built in USB port is prerequisite for spirituality. Quite the opposite. If anything, that would be Cameron’s cryptic message. James Cameron’s meaning there is pretty clear in the context of his prior work and who the man himself is. How many of you are familiar with Cameron’s non-narrative adventures during the time that Avatar was being made???

Those would include two very controversial movies called The Exodus Decoded, in which he explains the parting of the Red Sea, and The Lost Tomb of Jesus, in which he tries to convince people that he found the ossuary of Jesus. Both movies were largely perceived as attacks on the ground of Christian faith.

I’ve had some experience debunking skeptics, i.e., the variety that unfortunately conflates science as a method with science as a belief system, and anyone who has been doing that for a while can start to recognize pop culture expressions of materialism.

Human beings are already part of a network, and we don’t need any clumsy computerlike interfaces to be part of it. The visible physical interface we see in Avatar is how minds who think of science as a belief system in which all that does not fit the currently in vogue scientific model of how the world works like to see things.

Taking it to is modern logical conclusion, what Cameron shows the Pandorans doing naturally is one fantasy that the transhumanist singularitarians would like to emulate through science.

Cameron positively eradicates mysticism in Avatar. He turns it into a physical apparatus that has an explanation that science (as belief system) not only can understand—as Grace does—but that science can hypothetically duplicate. That is the implication of Grace’s work.

Cameron is not a stupid man. Why would he attach himself to two pieces of documentary work that assail the faith of so many people, and then show us a vision that is consistent with what the modern materialists of Ray Kurzweil’s caliber believe?

As far as the plot of Avatar, where another white man helps to save the poor indigenous people, just like Dances With Wolves—well I think that may go over mo betta with white folk than the indigenous people represented. Or at least it would if the Pandorans were real.

It’s not that the plots of either movie are bad. They are just…tiring. I live in Indian country. The next nearest white man to me is a Chsritian preacher, miles away, trying to make converts among the Indians while other Indians try to hold on to their language and traditional spiritual practices, like sweatlodges and sundances and house ceremonies. So if you look around yourself where I live, it really isn’t the white man who’s trying to save the culture. That’s just another fantasy that white folk have about themselves. The people here know that when the white man comes to “save” you, it means re-education and resettlement.

1276. Marja - December 30, 2013

K-7, at #1240 Michael Hall said I usually respect dmduncan’s opinion, but his statement that a built-in USB port is apparently some kind of a prerequisite for spirituality or an appreciation for nature in AVATAR is just putting words in Jim Cameron’s mouth. No character or situation in the film ever asserts any such thing.

IRT a post of dmduncan’s.

As to why that’s a negative on Cameron, I’m puzzled too. I liked that part of the movie.

1277. dmduncan - December 30, 2013

Watched Terminator again recently. I like the movie. It’s pretty good. Not amazing, but good. I did NOT think the story was as good as the Outer Limits Harlan Ellison story(ies) he was successfully sued for copying too closely, but it was above average for the time.

But you guys have to get over this fawning love of Cameron that makes you try to prove you are right with reviewer stats. Like if more people on a website say it’s better than movie A, B, or C, then you’re right and we who aren’t overjoyed with the man’s work are wrong.

Questions about quality are not answered by appeals to quantity.

You really can’t settle issues by tallying opinions, and you can’t stop people from having ones that disagree with yours.

Cameron is a very rich man who makes the types of films he wants to make, and he doesn’t care about who dislikes his work. Just like I don’t care how many people love his schtuff or how much money his movies make.

I don’t feel sorry for the man in the LEAST.

1278. Marja - December 30, 2013

1275, duncan, thanks for elaborating your point, I understand what you mean. I liked that part of the movie b/c I took it as a “natural interface” akin to Vulcans mind-melding or believing in katras. As I saw it, it also fit in with my personal belief that there is an interdependent web of all existence.

I never thought about a human/AI interface, the current discussion of which is explored in the new Joaquin Phoenix/Scarlett Johanssen movie, “Her,” and to me has rather scary implications.

Holy moley.

1279. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

====================================
The Best and Worst Science Fiction and Fantasy Movies of 2013

2. Star Trek Into Darkness

We’ve already ranted a lot about our problems with this movie. But here’s the thing: in a world that’s drowning in sequels and reboots, that try to substitute nostalgia for storytelling, this movie felt like a hideous poster child.

The first half of Into Darkness is a competent but not terrific reflection on the Iraq War, in which Starfleet is in danger of being drawn into a war with the Klingons after an unrelated terrorist attack. But the second half devolves into a mixture of nonsense and off-key cover versions of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

J.J. Abrams’ first Star Trek made our list of 2009’s best movies, because Abrams “managed to make Trek feel fresh again.” This time around, he pulls off the opposite achievement, making Trek feel stale.

http://io9.com/the-best-and-worst-science-fiction-and-fantasy-movies-o-1485583680

1280. MJ - December 30, 2013

@1279 That crazy lady with the red punk hair who runs i09 is nuts. I’ve hardly ever read much on her site that I agreed with.

1281. Red Dead Ryan - December 30, 2013

#1279. Ahmed,

Dude, c’mon, enough already. You have already posted several pieces supporting your position on STID. We get it. You’re simply spamming the same rhetoric over and over.

dmduncan,

You are entitled to your opinion. But many of Cameron’s films, including “The Terminator”, are generally considered classics which have had a huge impact on pop culture. People like to quote the lines, dress up as Arnie for Halloween, and keep watching the movies over and over. And you simply cannot ignore the 47 out of 47 ratings on Rotten Tomatoes. These are the facts.

Cameron’s films might not be to your taste, but you can’t deny the man his props, nor his films’ rightful places in the annals of Hollywood movie-making and storytelling.

1282. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

@ 1280. MJ – December 30, 2013

“@1279 That crazy lady with the red punk hair who runs i09 is nuts. I’ve hardly ever read much on her site that I agreed with.”

Wait, you want another SOURCE ??

Here is another list

=============================

The 10 worst films of 2013

Lou’s #5: “Star Trek Into Darkness”

“I liked the “Star Trek’’ reboot a lot, but this lame follow-up was really inexcusable. And not telling audiences that Benedict Cumberbatch was playing the most famous villain in the franchise’s history? That didn’t work out too well, did it?”

http://nypost.com/2013/12/19/the-posts-10-worst-films-of-2013/

1283. Michael Hall - December 30, 2013

“I didn’t even slightly imply that a built in USB port is prerequisite for spirituality. Quite the opposite. If anything, that would be Cameron’s cryptic message. James Cameron’s meaning there is pretty clear in the context of his prior work and who the man himself is. How many of you are familiar with Cameron’s non-narrative adventures during the time that Avatar was being made???”

No; what I wrote was that you said that Cameron implied it in AVATAR. I disputed that, continue to dispute it, and respectfully ask that you provide evidence for your assertion in in the film itself–proof that doesn’t reference Cameron’s private beliefs, legal disputes with Harlan Ellison, or his “non-narrative adventures” conducted while making that film. Because, however compelling, they’re really irrelevant to that question.

1284. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

@ 1281. Red Dead Ryan – December 30, 2013

Here is another one for you, my friend:

=============================

The 10 Worst Films of 2013

“4. Star Trek: Into Darkness

If you’re making a Star Trek movie where the big climax of the story is two guys fighting on top of a floating truck, you are doing it wrong. This has three separate and distinct stories, two of which it never gets around to resolving – at one point the crew of the Enterprise manage to start a war with the Klingons that’s promptly completely forgotten – while the third is a weird funhouse mirror version of the most-loved Star Trek film ever where all the emotional beats are wrong and the shock reveal literally means nothing to the story.

Coming after the surprise success of J.J. Abrams reboot of the Star Trek franchise, this managed to make replacing this timeline with the adventures of William Shatner’s hairpiece and Leonard Nimoy’s fake ears as they lie immobile on a dark make-up room desk sound like a step up.”

http://www.thevine.com.au/entertainment/movies/the-10-worst-films-of-2013-20131226-270243/?page=1&utm_source=thevine&utm_medium=pager&utm_campaign=internal-testing

1285. MJ - December 30, 2013

@1277

“But you guys have to get over this fawning love of Cameron that makes you try to prove you are right with reviewer stats. Like if more people on a website say it’s better than movie A, B, or C, then you’re right and we who aren’t overjoyed with the man’s work are wrong.”

In general, sure I would agree with this if it was say 75%, 80%, 85%, 90% of the reviews…and even if it was 95% of the reviewers. But, when 47 out of 47 of the critics say its great, well that is kind of a mind boggling unanimity of critical opinion. Again, I don’t recall ever seeing a movie with such a ubiquitous 100% level of agreement. It’s staggering.

1286. MJ - December 30, 2013

@LOL

Watch out, dude, or people are going to start thinking you are Curious Cadet’s brother. ;-)

1287. MJ - December 30, 2013

@Ahmed

LOL. Watch out, dude, or people are going to start thinking you are Curious Cadet’s brother. ;-)

1288. MJ - December 30, 2013

“Wait, you want another SOURCE ??”

Well played, Ahmed. :-)

1289. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

@ 1287. MJ – December 30, 2013

“@Ahmed

LOL. Watch out, dude, or people are going to start thinking you are Curious Cadet’s brother. ;-)”

We are all brothers here :)

1290. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

@ 1288. MJ – December 30, 2013

“Wait, you want another SOURCE ??”

Well played, Ahmed. :-)

Thanks, Sir.

What movies are you excited or interested in watching in 2014 ?

1291. MJ - December 30, 2013

“Cameron positively eradicates mysticism in Avatar. He turns it into a physical apparatus that has an explanation that science (as belief system) not only can understand—as Grace does—but that science can hypothetically duplicate. That is the implication of Grace’s work.”

Sounds like one hell of a Star Trek episode. Sign me up!

;-)

1292. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

RDR,

To make you happy, here is a good news for STID:

STID made it to the top 10 blu-ray sales in 2013

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/top.php

1293. MJ - December 30, 2013

@1290

Interstellar
The Maze Runner
Jupiter Ascending
XMEN-DOFP
Dawn of the Planet of the Apes
Edge of Tomorrow
Transcendence
Divergent

1294. MJ - December 30, 2013

and I don’t know if Noah counts, but the trailer looked very good.

1295. Red Dead Ryan - December 30, 2013

“The Amazing Spider Man 2″ looks to be better than the first. Excited for “Interstellar”. Looking forward to “The Hobbit: There And Back Again”.

“Robocop” looks slick, but will most likely stink up the joint. “Captain America 2″ looks like a STID rip-off, but will still see it.

1296. MJ - December 30, 2013

No doubt Curious Cadet will be carefully monitoring late December Blu-ray sells in the hope that he can show that STID ends up 11th after all the final numbers are tallied. LOL :-)))

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1292. Ahmed – December 30, 2013
RDR,

To make you happy, here is a good news for STID:

STID made it to the top 10 blu-ray sales in 2013

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/top.php

1297. MJ - December 30, 2013

@1295. Yea, thanks, add the 3rd Hobbit to my list as well. I’ll probably see those others your mentioned depending on word of mouth, but those are not yet on my list of must-sees.

1298. dmduncan - December 30, 2013

1285. MJ – December 30, 2013

I would be in that 100% myself, and yet still rate it far far below Blade Runner. So most people agree it’s a good action movie, including me.

I agree with the “Top Critic” who wrote:

“As a souvenir of a kind of B-grade action cinema that has all but vanished, The Terminator should find a small place in the heart of every movie addict.”

Exactly what I thought. Good B movie. I ALSO agree with everyone who said it was better than T2. It was.

1299. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

@1293. MJ

A very good list,

My list :

Very excited to see:

Interstellar
X-Men: Days of Future Past
Jupiter Ascending
Dawn of the Planet of the Apes
Edge of Tomorrow
Transcendence
The Hobbit: There and Back Again

Interesting :

Exodus
Guardians Of The Galaxy
Godzilla
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
The Expendables 3
The Equalizer
The Imitation Game

1300. MJ - December 30, 2013

Wow, I just looked up this Equalizer movie, base on that old series I really liked back in the 80’s. Denzel Washington is in it. Yea, I want to see this. Thanks!

1301. Red Dead Ryan - December 30, 2013

“The Terminator” is a great movie. “Terminator 2: Judgement Day” is an even greater movie. Both utter classics.

T2 is how you do a sequel properly.

1302. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

@ 1300. MJ – December 30, 2013

“Wow, I just looked up this Equalizer movie, base on that old series I really liked back in the 80′s. Denzel Washington is in it. Yea, I want to see this. Thanks!”

I loved the TV series with Edward Woodward, it was an interesting show. I was excited when I heard they are making a movie based on it & that Washington is in it as Robert McCall.

1303. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

@ 1301. Red Dead Ryan – December 30, 2013

““The Terminator” is a great movie. “Terminator 2: Judgement Day” is an even greater movie. Both utter classics.

T2 is how you do a sequel properly.”

Agreed. I never get tired of watching T2 every year or when they show it on TV. Heck, I even went to see it again in a crappy theater back in 2003 when I was in Cairo.

As you said, this is how to do a sequel that is equal or better than the original.

1304. MJ - December 30, 2013

DM, I think you stress too much about Cameron’s beliefs or lack of beliefs. I have a brain, and I can appreciate and understand The Passion of the Christ and Avatar, and filter out what they mean (if anything?) to my own belief structure. If people are going to come out of Passion or Avatar, and instantly become a Christian or an atheist, respectively, because of a Hollywood movie they just saw, then shame on those “sheep.”

1305. MJ - December 30, 2013

@1303

Best sequel ever: The Empire Strikes Back

Close Behind: T2, WOK, Aliens, Lethal Weapon 2, The Two Towers

1306. Red Dead Ryan - December 30, 2013

Let’s not forget “Spider Man 2″, “The Dark Knight”, “From Russia With Love”, “The Bourne Supremacy”, “Toy Story 2″.

1307. dmduncan - December 30, 2013

1283. Michael Hall – December 30, 2013

No; what I wrote was that you said that Cameron implied it in AVATAR. I disputed that, continue to dispute it, and respectfully ask that you provide evidence for your assertion in in the film itself–proof that doesn’t reference Cameron’s private beliefs, legal disputes with Harlan Ellison, or his “non-narrative adventures” conducted while making that film. Because, however compelling, they’re really irrelevant to that question.

***

Implied what, Michael? Materialism?

Ask and ye shall receive.

Here, have some dialogue, complete with a curious mention of “unmeasurable” “pagan voodoo” as a contrast to what’s “real” and really happens on Pandora.navi:

***

Dr. Grace Augustine: [to Selfridge] Those trees were sacred to the Omaticaya in a way you can’t imagine.

Selfridge: You know what? You throw a stick in the air around here it falls on some sacred fern, for Christ’s sake!

Dr. Grace Augustine: I’m not talking about pagan voodoo here – I’m talking about something REAL and measurable in the biology of the forest.

Selfridge: Which is *what* exactly?

Dr. Grace Augustine: What we think we know – is that there’s some kind of electrochemical communication between the roots of the trees. Like the synapses between neurons. Each tree has ten to the fourth connections to the trees around it, and there are ten to the twelfth trees on Pandora…

Selfridge: That’s a lot, I’m guessing.

Dr. Grace Augustine: That’s more connections than the human brain. You get it? It’s a network – a global network. And the Na’vi can access it – they can upload and download data – memories – at sites like the one you just destroyed.

***

But above dialogue aside, I’m afraid you assumed something you no right to assume. Whoever said my opinion on Cameron and what he is doing are always contained exclusively within the movies he makes?

Did I imply that here about Avatar? Where?

Do I live exclusively in a James Cameron movie? Why should I restrict my attention to what he does and believes only to what he puts in a movie? And why should I ignore ideas in movies—his or anyone else’s—that are repeated throughout society, as if my understanding of ANY given movie, and what happens in it, comes entirely from what I see on the movie screen?

1308. dmduncan - December 30, 2013

And by the way, “materialism” here is the philosophical variety as it relates to the neurosciences. It’s not economic. That’s not what I’m talking about. Since the Pandorans evidently jack their brains into the planet with ethernet hair, I thought the sense in which i was using the word was clear.

Maybe it wasn’t.

1309. Curious Cadet - December 30, 2013

@1277. dmduncan,
“But you guys have to get over this fawning love of Cameron that makes you try to prove you are right with reviewer stats.”

I too am a little perplexed by this bias. Perhaps I missed the turning point when the professional critics became the last word of a film’s merit.

The Rotten Tomatoes user review is only 88%. That makes Terminator an above average film, but not one of the best, at least amongst the users. 88% is indiciative of a sizeable audience who did not find the film that appealing.

1310. Ahmed - December 30, 2013

@1309. Curious Cadet

“88% is indiciative of a sizeable audience who did not find the film that appealing.”

I’m sorry but did you just say that an 88% is an indicative that a sizable audience “DID NOT FIND THE FILM THAT APPEALING” ? Did I read your comment correctly ?

1311. Curious Cadet - December 30, 2013

@1310 Ahmed,

Yes Ahmed, I meant it is a non-trivial percentage that has some significant measurable size. My apologies for a confusing use of the word “sizeable”.

1312. dmduncan - December 30, 2013

1309. Curious Cadet – December 30, 2013

Haha! I dunno, man. I guess some critics are more worth listening to than others when you’re trying to make a point.

Look, I just saw the thing again, and apart from the 80’s hairstyles and clothes, it’s held up well. The action scene where the terminator kills Connor’s girlfriend and her boyfriend was one of the weak scenes. I thought It looked almost amateurish. But overall, it’s a good SF action movie. The attack on the precinct is still cool. Most of the scenes work just as well as I remember.

But that one top critic who called it a type of B film said what I felt too. That’s why I quoted him.

Good B-type movie, and if that’s your introduction to time travel paradoxes, it could scramble your brain for a while to think about the scenario.

1313. Red Dead Ryan - December 30, 2013

#1309.

“The Rotten Tomatoes user review is only 88%. That makes Terminator an above average film, but not one of the best, at least amongst the users. 88% is indiciative of a sizeable audience who did not find the film that appealing.”

HUH? This makes no sense whatsoever! A user review of 88% is excellent! This puts the movie in the “A” grade category — especially when you couple it with the fact that all 47 critics there gave the movie highly favorable ratings.

Geez, I thought I was bad at math! Are you sure you’re feeling alright, CC? LOL!

1314. Red Dead Ryan - December 30, 2013

The scene where the Terminator kills Sarah’s roommate and her boyfriend was well done. It was highly realistic, and showed the deadly efficiency of the Terminator’s abilities. It gave you the feeling that this machine was truly unstoppable.

1315. dmduncan - December 30, 2013

I’m an easier mark for a movie like Terminator than a lot of people because I like SF. It’s important to remember that a lot of people don’t like SF. I do know people who don’t like Terminator and couldn’t be persuaded to waste their time telling you why on a site like RottenTomatoes.

So I just don’t know why RottenTomatoes matters. You aren’t likely to change someone’s opinion or prove they are wrong about a movie by counting how many people are against them.

1316. dmduncan - December 30, 2013

@1314: Well, if you watch the movie with me and my Mystery Science Theater 3000 treatment, you may never see it the same way again.

1317. Garak's Pride - December 30, 2013

Curious Cadet,

You are characterizing the level of an 88 rating on RT. If you would have read my earlier post, I already provided several other RT ratings of Top 10 level sf movies:

“Additionally, on IMDB, The Terminator rates an 8.1 (ST2009 rates an 8.0, WOK rates a 7,7, Blade Runner rates an 8.2), and for the fan ratings on RT, The Terminator rates an 88 (ST2009 rates a 91, WOK rates a 90, Blade Runner rates a 91)”

Thus, The Terminator is right in the ballpark of these movies across the RT and IMDB user ratings.

So, if you are consistent in what you are claiming about The Terminator being just “an above average movie,” then you are also telling us, by extension, that Blade Runner, WOK, and Trek 2009 are all just above average movies?

Separate from that, in my personal use of RT numbers, I would consider a 70 to 80 to be “above average,” and 80 to 90 to be an “outstanding” movie, and a 90 or above to be in the greatest movies of all time category.

I would expect that most people on this site would say that a movie with and 88 rating would certainly be well within the “outstanding” category. It would be nearly criminally misleading to think that an 88 RT rating is just “above average” — that just strains both common sense and 3rd grade mathematics.

Others here, regardless of how you feel about any particular movie, do you think and 88 rating on RT is only in the “above average” category, or do you think this level of rating is in the “outstanding” category on RT?

1318. Red Shirt Diaries - December 30, 2013

#1317

Garak’s Pride,

In answer to the open question you posed, obviously an 88 would be in the Outstanding category. Heck, The Matrix is at an 85 and District 9 is at an 82. Are those just above average movies?

Of course not!

1319. Red Dead Ryan - December 30, 2013

I agree that an 88 has to be considered “outstanding”. Anything above 80 would be considered a “classic”.

There is no way that anyone could, in all seriousness, consider “The Matrix” a classic, and yet subsequently consider “The Terminator” as being merely “average” or “above average”. That just is not credible. Not when “The Terminator” is a higher ranked movie.

1320. K-7 - December 30, 2013

Garak.

Yea, 88 is definitely in the “outstanding” range. I could see maybe arguing if the “above average” rating extended to maybe an extreme of the low 80’s, but the mid- and upper-80’s, where you get The Matrix, The Terminator and Trek 2009, is obviously in the “outstanding” range.

Given Curious Cadet’s past history here, I would not be surprised if his motives in this discussion are more geared towards being contrary to MJ and RDR, than being sensible and having a legitimate intellectual discussion on this topic???

1321. Red Dead Ryan - December 30, 2013

Curious Cadet seems to deliberately take contrarian positions just so that he can avoid agreeing with some of us here. CC is also spending a lot of time keeping his fingers crossed that STID falls out of the top dozen grossing movies of 2013 list. So he’ll pull anything out of his ass to support his flawed and ridiculous arguments.

1322. dmduncan - December 30, 2013

Well, what you guys are trying to do is interesting, but I can’t say I agree.

If you stipulate that, just as an example, at least 75 positive reviews on Rotten Tomatoes = outstanding, well then on the basis of your stipulated meaning, all who accept the stipulation can clearly agree that movie A, B, or C either is or is not an “outstanding” movie. In that case, Terminator would be “outstanding” because it got such a high number of positive reviews.

But what about those who don’t accept your stipulation?

While a 100% positive rating is impressive, that isn’t a vote on best movie of all time. If you tried to establish a 10 best movies list on the basis of positive ratings from Rotten Tomatoes, the resulting list would probably be hilarious, and I doubt those whose opinions you used to make the list would even agree with the ratings. That method would put The Terminator sharing the #1 spot with The Godfather on the basis of All Critics reviews.

In my case, I too would give Terminator a positive vote and would find myself in that 100% if I bothered to review the movie, but not only would I not rate it best movie of all time (that is NOT what the 100% rating means), I would not even rate it best movie of the 1980’s! it wouldn’t even make my 10 best list.

In other words, having a 100% positive rating does NOT mean the individual reviews rate it as a 100% top notch movie, better than any other movie on each individual critic’s top movies list.

Be careful what it is you are trying to claim, and don’t trick yourselves with words and numbers into believing something that isn’t true.

When I looked at AFI’s top 100 movies list, I could find The Terminator nowhere on it. I could only find a summary of the 400 films nominated, but in the category of the 1980’s, The Terminator wasn’t even mentioned in the summary of those films.

They did, however, mention Bladerunner, which also made it on the actual list of 100 best movies in 2007.

The Terminator wasn’t even on AFI’s list of top 10 SF movies! Although T2 was, which is understandable given the breakthrough CGI that movie had.

And that, I think, is what Cameron is really notable for. When the list is updated again, Avatar will probably be on it for the technical innovations Cameron was once again responsible for bringing to moviemaking.

1323. dmduncan - December 30, 2013

On a whim I just decided to Bing “avatar and transhumanism.” I discovered I’m not alone in what I saw Avatar really saying. Here’s an interesting analysis:

http://www.secondtense.com/2009/12/james-camerons-avatar-is-about.html

Any similarities between Avatar and what the transhumanists are trying to do? You tell me. What you cannot tell me is that a reductionist view of consciousness does NOT lie either behind these efforts or the ideas in James Cameron’s movie.

http://www.2045.com/news/29620.html

1324. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 30, 2013

Ahh. Best movie of all time.

Easy.

Spider-man 2

1325. MJ - December 30, 2013

@Garak

Yea, I think an 88 User Rating on RT is outstanding.

@DM Duncan

You might be right on RT, but the fan ratings in IMDB are surprisingly pretty damn good in rating the 20 top movies of all time — and this is based on their user reviews scoring, like you mentioned:

1. The Shawshank Redemption (1994) 9.2
2. The Godfather (1972) 9.2
3. The Godfather: Part II (1974) 9.0
4. Pulp Fiction (1994) 8.9
5. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966) 8.9
6. The Dark Knight (2008) 8.9
7. 12 Angry Men (1957) 8.9
8. Schindler’s List (1993) 8.9
9. The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) 8.9
10. Fight Club (1999)
11. The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (2001) 8.8
12. Star Wars: Episode V – The Empire Strikes Back (1980) 8.8
13. One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest (1975) 8.7
14. Inception (2010) 8.7
15. Forrest Gump (1994) 8.7
16. Goodfellas (1990) 8.7
17. Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope (1977) 8.7
18. Seven Samurai (1954) 8.7
19. The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002) 8.7
20. The Matrix (1999) 8.7

I’m sure we all have a few issues with this list (a couple of mine: where is Lawrence of Arabia and 2001; The Dark Knight is overrated), but certainly, in general, these movies are all classics. I certainly wouldn’t argue that Shawshank should not be at or near the top.

1326. MJ - December 30, 2013

@1323

Very funny! :-)

1327. MJ - December 30, 2013

….DM, incidentally, on the IMBD Top 250 ratings, T2 is 38 and T1 is 195. Movies rated near T1 include The Kings Speech, Ghandi, The Graduate, Ben Hur and Jaws — all boneified classics/outstanding movies!!! Star Trek 2009 comes it at 245, 50 slots below T1.

1328. TrekMadeMeWonder - December 30, 2013

1236. Dave H

Dusk to Dawn is on HBO2 now.

You may want to tune in. Selma does way more than just a table dance.

I guess you have to see the uncut version to appreciate it fully.

1329. Andorian - December 30, 2013

Re: Garak’s Pride

Add me to the list please of people here that think an 88 rating makes Terminator a classic movie on Rotten Tomatoes. It’s ridiculous for anyone to claim that that high a rating is only above average — that’s just wack.

1330. dmduncan - December 31, 2013

1324. MJ – December 30, 2013

Those are all good movies, but when you compare that list to AFI’s I get the impression from the IMDB folks that they haven’t seen as many movies.

Shawshank at #1? The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly, and Pulp Fiction above more movies than I can count on my fingers and toes that are not even ON that list?

I don’t know what’s going on there but the list just seems too arbitrary for me to take seriously.

Cameron gets on the AFI listings on the strength of his innovations, I am sure. That’s why T2 is there and that’s why Avatar WILL be there, I predict, when that list is updated. Unlike the “experts,” I can’t stretch the innovations in a Cameron film to cover its deficiencies. Any movie on my list of best movies has to be good all over, not just in a “department” or two.

Last night I read a very good New Yorker article on Cameron and his movies, which included some dead on accurate barbs about his qualities as director, in particular his “clanking” direction of otherwise good actors (article’s word, not mine), which I agree with.

What I didn’t know and learned from that article is that James Cameron’s favorite movie is The Wizard of Oz. Which fits, since I’ve been calling Cameron a technical wizard whose films are illusions that exhibit a love of quantity over quality.

1331. Michael Hall - December 31, 2013

“Do I live exclusively in a James Cameron movie? Why should I restrict my attention to what he does and believes only to what he puts in a movie? And why should I ignore ideas in movies—his or anyone else’s—that are repeated throughout society, as if my understanding of ANY given movie, and what happens in it, comes entirely from what I see on the movie screen?”

Well, excuse me. I really did think the subject under discussion here was the movie AVATAR, and the way its treatment of some kind of neural/telepathic connection between members of an intelligent species (actually a fairly standard trope in SF, including Star Trek) somehow, in your view, obviates the need for true spirituality. Not about the implied personal views of its director concerning such matters, about which I seriously couldn’t care less.

Grace Augustine is portrayed in the film as a pretty hard-bitten scientist. That such a person would be primarily concerned with things that are quantifiable and measurable, opposed to spiritual, is entirely consistent with the character as written. But hers is not the only point of view in AVATAR, any more than is Spock’s in Trek. In the end, it’s up to the audience and the characters to decide if “Eywa” is some kind of supra-rational intelligence, an emergent function of the Pandoran ecosphere’s connectedness, or nothing but a convenient Na’vi superstition.

I hold no brief for James Cameron. I thought ALIENS was a vastly overrated sequel to Ridley Scott’s masterful original film. The Terminator movies, while well-made, aren’t really my cup of tea either (whatever the merits of his legal suit, I much prefer Harlan Ellison’s “Soldier” as a telling of that particular story.) THE ABYSS is largely meh. TITANIC is beautifully made, genuinely (I think) heartfelt, with an accomplished and attractive cast. It is also, on many levels, profoundly silly, showcasing Cameron’s limitations as a director and, most especially, as a writer. (For that reason I think it actually has far more in common with AVATAR than Cameron’s other SF films, in spite of the genre-switching.)

Still. I first saw AVATAR on a cold winter’s day while on a road trip outside of Salt Lake City, pretty much free of expectations since I don’t follow Cameron’s career and had read little about the movie aside from its exorbitant budget. And what I came away with two-and-a-half hours later, in spite of its weaknesses as political metaphor and narrative, was something I often took away from the best of TOS (and sadly not at all from the J.J. Abrams reboot): a sense of genuine awe, and wonder, at the possibilities of space travel and what the future could hold for both collective scientific endeavor and questioning souls genuinely open to new experiences. It made me feel like I was fourteen again, holding that copy of Heinlein’s Citizen of the Galaxy or Orphans of the Sky and having my mind expanded by concepts I’d never dreamed were even possible before.

Yes, I’ve heard stories of Jim Cameron’s lousy treatment of the people who work for him, and have little reason to doubt they’re true. But that feeling of the Golden Age of Science Fiction restored, however temporary, was a rare gift for which I’ll always be grateful. Yes, he spent a lot of money. But I’ve seen a lot of big-budget films and can say with some authority that in the end money will only buy you elaborate FX work; it can’t buy you beauty. And if, in the end, AVATAR did little more than plant a few seeds of awareness about the perils of imperialism and the importance of preserving what remains of our natural heritage–while adding a little bit to the world’s supply of things that are truly beautiful to look upon–well, the money certainly could have been spent on worse.

1332. Michael Hall - December 31, 2013

#1325–

Mostly good films–and an awful list.

1333. I am not Herbert - December 31, 2013

My favorite movie? Pan’s Labyrinth! =D

favorite SciFi movie? District 9! =D

what does that say about me…? ;-)

1334. MJ - December 31, 2013

#1330

“Shawshank at #1? The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly, and Pulp Fiction above more movies than I can count on my fingers and toes that are not even ON that list?”

Yea, but, here’s the deal. You are a guy who went to film school and done some professional film work. The AFI ratings are something you would be more akin to.

IMDB is where the average movie buff rates movies. For example, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly and LOTR are in my personal Top 10 as well.

1335. MJ - December 31, 2013

I am a big Western fan, and AFI, for example, claims The Searchers is the best Western ever made. Well, the boring and overrated The Searchers is not even in my Top 10 of Western’s only. Unforgiven and The Good, the Bad and the Ugly are hands-down, the best Westerns ever made.

AFI also claims Vertigo is the number 1 mystery of all time. Are you kidding me? That is not even one of Hitchcock’s Top 5 films by my book. Inception. Rear Window and Chinatown would be my top mystery films..

1336. Michael Hall - December 31, 2013

What about Leone’s ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST? A totally badass Henry Fonda cast against type, and Claudia Cardinale’s brush-off to a leering Jason Robards (“Oh, go ahead–there’s nothing you can do to me that a good hot bath wouldn’t fix.”) ranks as one of my favorite movie lines evah.

Seriously, any Top 20 list which doesn’t include 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY or APOCALYPSE NOW strikes me as worse than useless.

1337. MJ - December 31, 2013

@1336. Agree with all three of those movies. And Henry Fonda was downright spooky in West.

1338. crazydaystrom - December 31, 2013

1336. Michael Hall

“Seriously, any Top 20 list which doesn’t include 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY or APOCALYPSE NOW strikes me as worse than useless.”

MY #2 and #1 personal favorite films of ALL-TIME!

1339. I am not Herbert - December 31, 2013

YES… 2001 will probably never be equaled… =)

did u see this?

http://www.examiner.com/article/special-effects-star-trek-style

1340. Michael Hall - December 31, 2013

1339,

Hey, that’s a fascinating story, if true! Neill built an amazing 6 foot TOS Enterprise miniature a few years back that makes my Masters Replicas ship look like a tinkertoy. Plus, he’s an accomplished CG artist. If he’s involved in this thing, the FX at the very least will be worth seeing.

I met Gary Lockwood a number of years back, and. . . well, was pretty let down. He looks nothing like he did as Gary Mitchell or Frank Bowman, and his take on current events wasn’t very thoughtful to say the least. But I’m still intrigued at the idea of seeing him and John Savage (an actor I’ve always liked) return to Trek

1341. Michael Hall - December 31, 2013

Holy shit. Just checked out Steve Neill’s site and apparently this is the real deal. Not sure if it’s a fan film, a commissioned pilot, or somewhere in-between. But a Trek production featuring Savage and Lockwood reprising their roles–how could we not know about this earlier??

http://steveneill.wordpress.com/

Lots of videos, and you can see Neill’s spectacular big E model as a bonus.

1342. I am not Herbert - December 31, 2013

Michael Hall: Sweet! thanks for the link =)

…getting TOS woody here! (TMI?)

1343. I am not Herbert - December 31, 2013

…yeah, WOW… Gary is BARELY recognizable! …but seems energetic! =)

1344. dmduncan - December 31, 2013

1331. Michael Hall – December 31, 2013

Well, excuse me. I really did think the subject under discussion here was the movie AVATAR, and the way its treatment of some kind of neural/telepathic connection between members of an intelligent species (actually a fairly standard trope in SF, including Star Trek) somehow, in your view, obviates the need for true spirituality. Not about the implied personal views of its director concerning such matters, about which I seriously couldn’t care less.

***

Well the actual and long ago forgotten subject of the thread is Cornish out, Payne and McKay in. Since then we’ve been using the thread to traipse wherever on the map of subjects we feel like going, as usually happens in a thread of this length. I’ve even forgotten what my original comment was which caused you to challenge me, but going on memory I thought I made a comment on why I didn’t really care much for Avatar. And going on your above quote I’m still not sure you even understand my meaning.

Does Avatar “obviate” the “need” for “true spirituality”? That’s an odd way of putting what I think I said, Michael.

I don’t think I either said or implied that Avatar “obviates” the “need” for “true spirituality.” But if I did, unintentionally, let me clarify:

I think Avatar expresses a transhumanist / materialist / reductionist meme regarding consciousness that “materializes” spirituality. And in materializing it, Avatar promotes an untrue image of it that thrives in other parts of our culture. The issue has sides, and Avatar has picked one and is purveying it. Without any nuance whatsoever.

That comes across in the specific way that the Na’vi connect to their world, i.e., through hair-thernet cables, which make the Na’vi seem like physical accessories of a planet sized machine, which is an idea you can trace to reductionist theories of consciousness, arising from scientific materialism. It is also present in Grace’s disparagement of “pagan voodoo” which far more closely resembles actual human forms of spirituality where “connections” are NOT physical.

Grace isn’t a real person, and Cameron is not exceptional at creating realistic characters; she’s saying the words that Cameron puts in her mouth.

That “pagan voodoo” stuff one of the sympathetic protagonists is talking to the audience about is all unmeasurable (false) nonsense. The Na-vi have the REAL deal, and if we can just make what they have (transhumanist fantasy), then we’ll be good. I have heard this story so many times before. It is not an uncommon view among those for whom Any Science Is Good Science, i.e., those for whom science is not a mere method, but a belief system.

Does Grace speak for Cameron as a major character on the sympathetic side of the fence? Yeah, I think she does, but some people may have to look at Cameron’s career as a whole to really get that; the article I mentioned and which I will link to is the most insightful look at Cameron that I have come across, and it does a much better job than I do here of identifying a career-long theme in Cameron’s movies.

In Star Trek, Spock does indeed do the mystical stuff, and he even touches his subjects to do it, but that is hardly equivalent to being an alien with a built in hair-thernet cable that he can physically connect to other creatures which have the same device.

How Spock does what he does is treated in a much more mysterious way that does not restrict your opinion to what is going on as drastically as Cameron’s physicalist portrayal does. What Spock does looks psychic; what the Na’vi do looks purely physical.

Whole different bag of cats.

Here is the excellent New York Review of Books article (sorry, NOT the New Yorker, as I previously mistakenly called it) on Cameron:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/mar/25/the-wizard/?page=1

1345. I am not Herbert - December 31, 2013

this is some good stuff… trans-humanism vs. spirituality… provocative…! =)

1346. MJ - December 31, 2013

DM and Michael Hall,

This major discussion you are having based on both of your differing views of the movie Avatar shows just how Trek-like Avatar was. Avatar has you guys debating the meaning of human connections and is is possible to have a natural God-like connection, or is that morally wrong. The best of Star Trek has episodes that dealt with issues like this.

This proves my earlier point. Avatar was like a mega-Star Trek episode, with huge issues that make us debate on what it is to be human, where does the line between nature and God end, why do we need a Prime Directive-like structure as we move into space, etc.

Avatar was a Star Trek-like episode on a huge scale.

1347. I am not Herbert - December 31, 2013

MJ: NOW you are talking! kudos! =)

1348. MJ - December 31, 2013

@1347

How about a New Years Resolution that you and I bury the hatchet?

1349. I am not Herbert - January 1, 2014

MJ: no resolutions here, but I agree! =)

…now let’s HUG IT OUT, ya’ big lug!! =D

(‘sniff) ;-)

1350. dmduncan - January 1, 2014

Star Trek already did the “White Messiah complex” story—which the hackneyed Avatar repeated—back in 1968, when James Cameron was about 14 years old. It was called The Paradise Syndrome.

So technically, Avatar IS a Star Trek “like” story.

As far as the “debate” it’s causing here—it’s true that it’s causing the debate, but the way in which it is doing so is more like how a Leni Riefenstahl movie, rather than how a Stanley Kubrick movie, causes it.

1351. dmduncan - January 1, 2014

And for those who don’t like the Riefenstahl comparison I could as easily substitute the name of Riefenstahl for Sergei Eisenstein. Whether you are looking at Triumph of the Will or Battleship Potemkin, you are looking at undeniably well made historically important pieces of propaganda that effectively bypass the reasoning by overwhelming the emotions.

See, very few people actually want to look at what Avatar is saying; they don’t care. They just want to be left alone to bask in Avatar’s 3D palette of purple and blue lights.

I think with his technical innovations, Cameron broke new ground for what propaganda movies will be capable of achieving. All you have to do is set the propaganda in a lavish alien world that overwhelms people’s senses, and a good number of people—perhaps even most— will suck up any message you are hiding in your hackneyed stories.

Cameron proved something important with Avatar: Story doesn’t matter. People will turn out in huge numbers for experience-po_rn.

1352. MJ - January 1, 2014

@1351

Wow :-))

1353. MJ - January 1, 2014

@1349

LOL – sounds good.

1354. I am not Herbert - January 1, 2014

dmduncan: that is the BEAUTY of Sci-Fi… you bring them in with spectacle… and subtly tell a story of morality =)

true, most people don’t want to “learn” anything, they just want to be pandered to =(

BUT even if you were only able to spark a small amount of thought, you are fighting the good fight of REAL Sci-Fi! =D

What you choose to cynically call propaganda, in Avatar, IMHO is a very worthwhile message!

IMHO nu-trek fails horribly in this regard: no morality, no honor, no respect

1355. dmduncan - January 1, 2014

No, it wouldn’t be fair to call Avatar propaganda just yet. I do think it’s fair to say Avatar works something like propaganda does.

And I don’t believe Avatar is sparking any thought apart from its critics who question what most people think is wonderful about it. I think “experience p_orn,” as I’ve called it, is a good way to describe what Avatar is.

1356. Michael Hall - January 1, 2014

“Does Avatar “obviate” the “need” for “true spirituality”? That’s an odd way of putting what I think I said, Michael.”

No; what I observed was that you made the claim that’s what the movie said about the ability of the Na’vi to communicate via link. Personally, I don’t think that’s what the film was saying at all.

” It is also present in Grace’s disparagement of “pagan voodoo” which far more closely resembles actual human forms of spirituality where “connections” are NOT physical.”

It seemed obvious to me from the context of that statement that Grace was desperately trying to convince Selfridge, Quaritch, and a crew of hard headed bottom-line skeptics that there was more to the Na’vi beliefs than mere tribal superstition in order to forestall a massacre. As to whether “pagan voodoo” is actually closer to, say, Christianity, than Na’vi animism I would leave to the reader to decide, since I have no axe to grind one way or the other.

“Grace isn’t a real person, and Cameron is not exceptional at creating realistic characters; she’s saying the words that Cameron puts in her mouth.”

Um, yes, he did indeed put words in her mouth. That’s what screenwriters tend to do. :-) But I would agree that Cameron definitely has issues with creating well-rounded characters.

My question in any case would be why you would assume that the opinions of Grace Augustine, of all the diverse viewpoints expressed in this film, necessarily represent those of its author? Yes, she ultimately is sympathetic, but initially is portrayed as an arrogant elitist who dismisses the film’s main protagonist as a “jar-head dropout,” and who while admired by her colleagues and associates clearly isn’t particularly well-liked by any of them. And over the course of the film’s events her beliefs and attitudes change, culminating with the scene just before her death where she acknowledges the Na’vi Earth-Mother goddess Eywa as a real bona-fide entity, something she had been loathe to do previously. So which version of Grace Augustine is a mouthpiece for Cameron’s propaganda?

“How Spock does what he does is treated in a much more mysterious way that does not restrict your opinion to what is going on as drastically as Cameron’s physicalist portrayal does. What Spock does looks psychic; what the Na’vi do looks purely physical.”

“Whole different bag of cats.”

Well, we absolutely disagree here, to the point I’m astonished that you could even make such a claim given Trek’s history and the well-known attitudes of its creator. (Roddenberry won the American Humanist Lifetime Achievement Award for a reason, and I can assure you that it wasn’t for promoting mysticism.)

The Vulcan mind-meld was first introduced in the episode “Dagger of the Mind” as a way to obtain information from a patient who had been so psychically damaged that he couldn’t communicate it directly. The original idea was to use hypnotism, but the network was uneasy about portraying that technique on-camera and in any case the producers probably felt that something more “futuristic” and exotic was required, so much as the Vulcan nerve pinch replaced a scripted punch in “The Enemy Within” the mind-meld was born. But there was never any suggestion that there was anything more “mystical” to it than being one more thing Vulcans could do that humans couldn’t, like the neck pinch or having an inner eyelid. I would guarandamntee you that the hyper-rationalistic Vulcan race as depicted would have a working theory/model about telepathic communication mapped-out to the 99th decimal place; to employ the same terminology (“psychic,” “mystical”) you would use to describe Tarot Card readings or a Ouija board session is just absurd.

“As far as the “debate” it’s causing here—it’s true that it’s causing the debate, but the way in which it is doing so is more like how a Leni Riefenstahl movie, rather than how a Stanley Kubrick movie, causes it.”

It’s interesting that you would make this comparison, since Riefenstahl’s work is almost universally acknowledged among film scholars to be brilliant–it’s the uses to which her talents were put, and the intersection of art and propaganda with her character and beliefs, that make her life story so controversial and instructive. Whereas, in your view, Cameron is little more than a glorified hack with a genius for self-promotion and a bagful of digital hoo-ha. Where’s the meeting point?

“See, very few people actually want to look at what Avatar is saying; they don’t care. They just want to be left alone to bask in Avatar’s 3D palette of purple and blue lights.”

While AVATAR’s take on the White Savior mythos may indeed be hackneyed, and trite, and even racially problematic, there’s little in the film itself to compete with that level of condescension. Do you think it’s just possible, dm, that we don’t see this film as pushing a transhumanist agenda because the evidence for it simply isn’t there? And that modern audiences, however less discerning than yourself, really don’t need to be saved from James Cameron and his propaganda machine any more than those in 1969 needed to be saved from “The Paradise Syndrome”? (Which, as third season TOS episodes go, at least had some nice production values and lovely moments amidst the epic silliness.)

Finally: that audiences will turn out in huge numbers for works that emphasize style over substance was the last thing on this world, or any other, that Jim Cameron needed to prove.

1357. MJ - January 1, 2014

“It’s interesting that you would make this comparison, since Riefenstahl’s work is almost universally acknowledged among film scholars to be brilliant–it’s the uses to which her talents were put, and the intersection of art and propaganda with her character and beliefs, that make her life story so controversial and instructive. Whereas, in your view, Cameron is little more than a glorified hack with a genius for self-promotion and a bagful of digital hoo-ha. Where’s the meeting point?”

But DM was able to pull out the “Nazi Card” for this argument. That should count for some extra credit, right? ;-)

1358. MJ - January 1, 2014

Guys, I actually like the idea of being able to mentally connect with others, and being able to connect with a planet mega-mind. It’s a very Star Trek like and science fiction idea. Sign me up!

1359. dmduncan - January 1, 2014

1356. Michael Hall – January 1, 2014

“My question in any case would be why you would assume that the opinions of Grace Augustine, of all the diverse viewpoints expressed in this film, necessarily represent those of its author? Yes, she ultimately is sympathetic, but initially is portrayed as an arrogant elitist who dismisses the film’s main protagonist as a “jar-head dropout,” and who while admired by her colleagues and associates clearly isn’t particularly well-liked by any of them.”

From what I’ve read, she actually sounds like Cameron himself! So maybe that’s part of the answer.

“And over the course of the film’s events her beliefs and attitudes change, culminating with the scene just before her death where she acknowledges the Na’vi Earth-Mother goddess Eywa as a real bona-fide entity, something she had been loathe to do previously. So which version of Grace Augustine is a mouthpiece for Cameron’s propaganda?”

You are creating a false choice. The “Earth-Mother goddess” is a physical thing which stands in contrast to the very definition of the word “spirit.” I thought I already said that when I called Avatar a movie that endorses a transhumanist / materialist / reductionist model of reality.

“Well, we absolutely disagree here, to the point I’m astonished that you could even make such a claim given Trek’s history and the well-known attitudes of its creator. (Roddenberry won the American Humanist Lifetime Achievement Award for a reason, and I can assure you that it wasn’t for promoting mysticism.)”

I know very well what Roddenberry’s opinions were regarding religion, and yet somehow Spock manages to transport his soul into the body of Dr. McCoy where it can be saved until ready for transference back to Spock’s body. Don’t bother telling me the word they used was “katra”! There’s no known functional difference anywhere made clear! And amazement of amazements, Spock didn’t need a computer cable to do it!

No promotion of mysticism in Star Trek? Then why is Star Trek ripping off a legendary Tibetan Buddhist skill?

So my turn to be astonished.

That you mention Roddenberry’s well known humanism as if it governed all of TOS the way Cameron famously governs his own productions is just so obviously false. I believe Roddenberry’s views on religion were well formed by the time Bread and Circuses aired in 1968, and yet there is his name on the writers’ credits for an episode that shows us a world that had just experienced the coming of the Son of God.

“It’s interesting that you would make this comparison, since Riefenstahl’s work is almost universally acknowledged among film scholars to be brilliant–it’s the uses to which her talents were put, and the intersection of art and propaganda with her character and beliefs, that make her life story so controversial and instructive. Whereas, in your view, Cameron is little more than a glorified hack with a genius for self-promotion and a bagful of digital hoo-ha. Where’s the meeting point?”

1. You are going to have to use MY words when you describe MY views, Michael. Not your straw man translation of my views into words I did not use. I say things MY way, not YOUR way, for a reason. So before you take issue with what I say, please make sure I’m the one who’s saying it.

2. Why are you asking me for a “meeting point” between the two AT ALL when you already asked me “which version of Grace Augustine is a mouthpiece for Cameron’s propaganda?” The latter question you asked suggests you already grasped the answer if you understand that I have linked both Cameron and Riefenstahl by propaganda, which should be an obvious “meeting point.” So which sentence that I already wrote would you like me to repeat?

“While AVATAR’s take on the White Savior mythos may indeed be hackneyed, and trite, and even racially problematic, there’s little in the film itself to compete with that level of condescension. Do you think it’s just possible, dm, that we don’t see this film as pushing a transhumanist agenda because the evidence for it simply isn’t there?”

Are you saying that you’ve studied Philosophy of Mind and know what reductionism and materialism are, and how those things relate to transhumanism?

See, I recall that you’ve said of yourself that you practice some sort of CGI work. I do NOT do CGI work. And I do not talk about it as if I do. I would not, for instance, presume to tell you how to model a ship or even a simple sphere, because it’s not one of the things I know how to do. All I know about CGI is whether it convinces me or does not.

So if you are telling me that you and I have studied the same subjects and are relatively as familiar with them, then I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but then I would also expect you to come up with a better riposte than to call me condescending and to suggest that I’m seeing things. I would expect you to understand at least where I’m coming from and to provide a better answer to what I said—even if you didn’t agree with it, which is entirely possible—than what you gave.

THAT sort of disagreement would lead to a real debate, which we are not having, about the merits of what I said the film shows.

So do forgive me if I sound a little skeptical and not as apologetic for what you perceive as my sin.

“And that modern audiences, however less discerning than yourself, really don’t need to be saved from James Cameron and his propaganda machine any more than those in 1969 needed to be saved from “The Paradise Syndrome”?”

Ha! I didn’t realize you had hired me to save audiences in the first place. The pink slip doubles the shock. How much did I earn during my brief time on the job?

1360. dmduncan - January 1, 2014

1357. MJ – January 1, 2014

But DM was able to pull out the “Nazi Card” for this argument. That should count for some extra credit, right? ;-)

***

Hahaha! I knew SOMEBODY was going to take my Riefenstahl likening as Nazi comparison bait—which it isn’t; I compared Cameron to another famous and historically important filmmaker with a talent for making powerful movies that affect people emotionally.

I knew somebody would think that, and that is why I followed myself up with comment 1351 where I state that Riefenstahl could be replaced by Eisenstein.

1361. MJ - January 1, 2014

@1360

Yea, DM, I know, I was just having fun with that. It was too hard for me to resist. Sorry! ;-)

Seriously though, I just don’t find your Cameron theme of “I am aggressive Atheist who is going to show you that the only way you can get close to anything Godlike in this world is to connect with each other and nature. and fight greedy corporations” is such as big a negative as you make it out to be?

1362. dmduncan - January 1, 2014

And if I truly thought Cameron was a “hack” as Michael tried to make me say he was, I wouldn’t have put him in the company of two distinguished and history-making filmmakers.

Cameron is clearly talented at something, or he wouldn’t have had the success he’s had or currently enjoy the power he has to make what he wants. What that talent is is debatable.

1363. dmduncan - January 1, 2014

1361. MJ – January 1, 2014

And a lot of people feel that way, MJ, which is why you’ve got this Transhumanist movement to begin with.

But I can’t tell people in a place like this all the reasons why I think it is so tragically misguided. It’s more than just an inappropriate forum; even if I tried to put it in words it would not succeed because some things people just HAVE to experience for themselves to understand.

The nature of what Transhumanists / materialists / reductionists believe we are is wrong. False. This last year of my life has been so eye-opening that it no longer even makes any rational sense for me to doubt it.

At the same time, I can’t behave as if I haven’t got the knowledge I do either, which makes these kinds of debates tough for me to be in. NO doubt I sound like I’m talking some unknown language sometimes, but that’s the way it has to be. Either that or just shut up completely.

In an early episode of Sleepy Hollow Abbie asks Ichabod (who has just awakened after 200 years) if he really thinks something improbable they are investigating is possible. He answers something like (and I’m paraphrasing from memory) “my situation compels me to think so.”

I know exactly how Ichabod feels.

1364. Marja - January 1, 2014

1325 MJ, a Top 100 Movies list that does not include “Casablanca” …? What were they thinking? There are many other fine movies that didn’t make that list, too.

1365. dmduncan - January 1, 2014

But I’ll tell ya. When Michael says to me: “Do you think it’s just possible, dm, that we don’t see this film as pushing a transhumanist agenda because the evidence for it simply isn’t there?”, I just had to shake my head.

http://www.2045.com/

1366. Andorian - January 1, 2014

Question:

What is wrong with people supporting and promoting Transhumanism? I get that some might not agree with it, but why is it wrong for some to believe and promote it if they so choose to? Every other kind of belief system has been promoted in movies.

1367. Curious Cadet - January 1, 2014

Anybody reporting on the awards status?

Looks like STID has picked up 3 Critic’s Choice nominations:
Best Visual Effects
Best Action Movie
Best Sci-fi/Horror Movie

3 People’s Choice awards nominations:
Favorite Movie Duo (Pine & Quinto)
Favorite Movie
Favorite Action Movie

Looks like its already won the COLA location scouting award

Anybody else got some news?

1368. dmduncan - January 1, 2014

1366. Andorian – January 1, 2014

That’s an excellent question.

But at least part (the most meaningful part, I am afraid) of my answer would have to be a conditional one, conditional that you grant, for the sake of argument, that what I say about our nature as conscious beings is true (at least to understand where I am coming from), and very different from what the reductionists suppose; as an already “connected” species, transhumanism proceeds from a PROFOUND alienation we have from our nature. It is based on a false assumption that consciousness is an emergent property of brains and therefore can have no existence independent of some type of physical substrate such as a brain. For the transhumanists, minds are features of physicality, uploadable to manmade brains that either will not perish or at least can be replaced, leading to some form of personal immortality (for those who can afford it), BECAUSE they assume minds are emergent properties of brains and can therefore be transferred from them to something else manmade and longer lasting.

Now, if that is a profoundly mistaken view of what our minds are, as I assert that it is, what sort of good is going to come from building a grand erroneous experiment in which we are all likely to be caught?

You can fantasize about that all you want, but it’s not just fantasy.

Powerful people are acting, aggressively acting on the belief that it can be done. My personal concern is not that they will be successful in achieving their aim, but in what sort of Frankenstein they may unintentionally loose on everyone in the pursuit of the technologies they think is necessary to achieve their goals.

And whether you accept what I say—that we are more than our brains, or not, even those within the movement are aware of the risks in the technologies they are exploring. Many of them are careful to promote the rosy predictions of what will happen, but even they are aware of the darker possibilities of a machine “intelligence” run amok and not under our control.

The very idea of The Singularity is the unpredictabillity of what lies on the other side of it, which does not stop men like Kurzweil from selling their rosy portraits of how great it will be.

So tell me, should we continue to pretend that it’s ethical for a small group of people to subject us all to their experiments without our knowledge or consent? Because if things do turn toward the dark, we will all be caught up in the consequences. Yeah, you may ALL get an intimate understanding of what it’s like to be Tuskeegee Airmen on that day; OR what it’s like to have your way of life destroyed and you given little reservations to live on where you can be harmlessly “obsolete.”

In my opinion, getting sucked into rosy movie theater illusions about transhumanism makes you less concerned about the possible negative consequences of a very real and well funded movement.

There’s nothing democratic about it at all. If there’s any hidden message in it, it is that “we are going to do what we want whether you like it or not, whether we are wise enough to pull it off without catastrophic consequences or not, because WE who have the money want to live forever, and you who have no money or say can’t stop us.”

Oh yes, don’t worry. Even if it WERE possible to do, none of YOU will be getting the benefit of it anymore than you will all be lining up at Virgin Galactic this or next year for your free promised flights into space.

Oh what a wonderful world it would be where Bill Gates, and the Rockefellers, and Ray Kurzweil never die and get to shape the world from their mechanical bodies forever!

What’s wrong with that?

Maybe the prospect of an immortal Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld would cause you more concern?

1369. Disinvited - January 1, 2014

#1292. Ahmed – December 30, 2013

What I see says it it only ranked #14. Looks like time has rewarded you once again.

1370. Disinvited - January 1, 2014

Matt,

If Bob Orci says it is so right here, and you can verify it, isn’t it time, by now, to say that it IS 100 percent official???

1371. Red Dead Ryan - January 1, 2014

Curious Cadet,

I find it very “curious” that for the past few weeks, you have been gleefully anticipating STID’s descent out of the top ten highest grossing movies of the year list, and yet now here you are posting awards nominations for the movie??

This seems contradictory. Not sure what your position on the movie is. Kind of like politician “double-speak”. :-)

1372. Andorian - January 1, 2014

DM Duncan,

Thank you for your quick reply. I understand what you are saying. But I can take any theory regarding technology and man, and come up with a Worst Case Scenario.

And it is good that you are others make us aware of these Worst Case Scenarios. That is how we avoid then. Case in point, Mutual Assured Destruction during the Cold War.

1373. dmduncan - January 1, 2014

I wish nightmare scenarios were only the stuff of nightmares, but they are not. Fukushima is an example. Some might say it could have been worse; my reply: It could have been better.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/12/radiation-seals-sea-lions-polar-bears-bald-eagles-sea-stars-turtles-king-salmon-sockeye-salmon-herring-anchovies-sardines-west-coast-north-americaseals-sea-lions-polar-bears.html

1374. I am not Herbert - January 1, 2014

dmduncan: Do you think that Avatar is a proponent of trans-humanism?

’cause i didn’t really see that… is that the propaganda you refer to?

IMHO i think it’s cool to think about, in terms of Sci-Fi…

but not something you would want to engage in… nature is beautifully perfect in my opinion… and selfishly manipulating it is a foolish recipe for disaster… =(

1375. MJ - January 1, 2014

Hey, if I could have a 20-year old clone body of mine grown, and then my brain transplanted into “me in my prime”, I am all f’in in on that. :-)

1376. Marja - January 2, 2014

1375 MJ, If I could I’d do so many things I didn’t do when my mind was young and questing and more trainable, gosh, it’s a great fantasy innit. Of course I’d have my wisdom, such as it is, transplanted, but would want a “fresh” brain for it and for all the new knowledge … :-P

1377. Curious Cadet - January 2, 2014

@1369. Disinvited,
“#1292. Ahmed – December 30, 2013 What I see says it it only ranked #14. Looks like time has rewarded you once again.”

That’s a sales site, which is going to change over time. I just checked and today it ranks #13. Who knows, it could hit the top 10 again during another big sales surge. Big difference between a limited time box-office window and an open-ended media aftermarket.

Regardless, it was nominated for a Satellite Award for “Best Overall Blu-Ray”. Now that’s permanent.

My question is, what are the criteria? I didn’t really get the impression the STID Blu-ray was all that special, especially considering the absence of deleted scenes, and special content that was limited to certain marketing promotions — which raises the question … which Blu-ray was nominated, was it the Target Blu-ray, or the Best Buy Blu-ray, et al.?

1378. dmduncan - January 2, 2014

Man, just looked at Ender’s Game numbers and it tanked, didn’t it?

I think it’s fair to say that anything by Orson Scott Card is probably going to be radioactive at the box office.

But Bob and Gavin deserve credit for taking a chance on making a good movie out of a SF classic.

1379. Curious Cadet - January 2, 2014

@1378 dmduncan,
“Man, just looked at Ender’s Game numbers and it tanked, didn’t it?”

Sorry to say it did. That’s my concern about hard scifi and Star Trek at the box office. Especially since Gravity doesn’t really seem to be real sci-fi as has been discussed around the internet. There’s lots to be investigated about why it failed. I don’t buy the boycott explanation, as that’s lost on most movie-goers.

What really intrigues me at the box office is the way Frozen just keeps on going, as well as The Hobbit, though that was to be expected (hard to believe anyone would doubt that). But putting Frozen in the same category with Cameron’s Titanic and Avatar is sort of a big deal.

From Boxofficemojo —

“The second Hobbit movie took first place for the third-straight weekend—the only other movie to accomplish this feat in 2013 was fellow Warner Bros. release Gravity.The Hobbit added $29.9 million, which is off seven percent from the first Hobbit on the same weekend last year. The Desolation of Smaug has now earned over $190 million, and remains on pace for a final tally north of $250 million.

Disney Animation’s Frozen continues to exceed even the most optimistic expectations. The animated sensation increased 47 percent to $28.8 million; among fifth weekends, that figure ranks third all-time behind Avatar($42.8 million) and Titanic ($30 million). The movie is benefiting not only from great word-of-mouth, but also from a void of legitimate family entertainment—Saving Mr. Banks turned out to be too mature, while Walking with Dinosaurs never really clicked with audiences.

Among 2013 releases, Frozen now ranks seventh with $248.4 million. It’s also now guaranteed to close with over $300 million.”

1380. Ahmed - January 2, 2014

@ 1367. Curious Cadet – January 1, 2014

Best Visual Effects: Sure
Best Action Movie: Of course, with that relentless action
Best Sci-fi/Horror Movie: Nope, no sci-fi story there.

1381. TrekMadeMeWonder - January 2, 2014

I certainly hope these two write better than how they dress for this photo.

Seriously. I’d be wearing a tux and tie, or at least a TOS top announcing this gig!

1382. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

MJ, Marja: FYI: brain and mind are two different things…

the brain is the body’s transceiver of mind…

(and driver of the body’s base functionality)

food for thought: what IS the nature of “mind”?…

clue: we are a complex of mind / body / spirit… ;-)

1383. Ahmed - January 2, 2014

@ 1381. TrekMadeMeWonder – January 2, 2014

“I certainly hope these two write better than how they dress for this photo.
Seriously. I’d be wearing a tux and tie, or at least a TOS top announcing this gig!”

Come on, are you serious ?

Bob & Alex dress same way

http://eclipsemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Roberto-Orci-Alex-Kurtzman.png

Unless they are attending a black-tie event :)

http://screencrave.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/alex-kurtzman-roberto-orci-star-trek.jpg

1384. Disinvited - January 2, 2014

#1377. Curious Cadet – January 2, 2014

I think the point is that the multitude of release versions was likely a double-edge sword. There were so many versions that the odds of one of them being technically special enough to warrant a nomination was pretty good. However, having so many will likely tend to work against the nominated version in the voting because voters will assume that the one they’ve seen is the one nominated and not go to the bother to be sure to watch the actual one nominated. This will generate a lot of noise in its votes which could work against it in the voting.

However, if, in spite of these factors, it does manage to win I hope Paramount, Bad Robot, et al are wise enough to successfully market it into yet another one of their double-dip campaigns even though a win probably would just indicate that Paramount’s disc division just managed to pull off a successful qc across all its releases which in its own right would deserve to be rewarded.

You might ask what the significance of that observation was? Well, I’m not certain, but I think I just talked myself into buying whatever version of STID wins the the Satellite. Well played Bad Robot/Paramount. Well played.

1385. TrekmadeMeWonder - January 2, 2014

1383. Ahmed

Just sayin’ what I’d be doing.

You have to admit they look like two unemployed college kids.

1386. Michael Hall - January 2, 2014

#1359 dmduncan–

Okay, interesting responses. I’ll try to reply in kind as honestly as I can.

“From what I’ve read, she actually sounds like Cameron himself! So maybe that’s part of the answer.”

Which isn’t much of an answer, sorry. “From what you’ve read,” really?

“You are creating a false choice. The “Earth-Mother goddess” is a physical thing which stands in contrast to the very definition of the word “spirit.”

Well, the Na’vi certainly don’t see it that way, regardless of what Grace Augustine may or may not believe. And, to be bluntly honest, this dichotomy doesn’t seem to be all that different with “real,” modern bureacratic systems of religious belief as well. Christians, for example, may talk a good game about just having faith, but obliged to defend elements of that faith such as Young Earth Creationism in the modern, scientific (what you might call materialist) arena they seem quite content to refer to what they consider to be examples of concrete, physical proof which support their beliefs.

Bottom line: as a lifelong agnostic and schoolboy scientist who nevertheless considers himself to be spiritual in his own way, and who likes to think of himself as being at least somewhat open-minded about these things, I don’t think the divisions between a “scientistic,” materialist worldview and a spiritual one are as clear-cut or mutually exclusive as you make them out to be. Non-overlapping magesteria, as Stephen J. Gould once famously put it.

“I know very well what Roddenberry’s opinions were regarding religion, and yet somehow Spock manages to transport his soul into the body of Dr. McCoy where it can be saved until ready for transference back to Spock’s body. Don’t bother telling me the word they used was “katra”! There’s no known functional difference anywhere made clear! And amazement of amazements, Spock didn’t need a computer cable to do it!”

Well, we all know that Roddenberry was pretty much persona-non-grata at Paramount by the time THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK was filmed. But in any case, so what? Maybe Spock’s “katra” was just indeed another word for his soul (though that strikes me as much more of a human, rather than Vulcan, conceit). But TSFS, fairly dopey adventure movie that it is, certainly doesn’t begin to delve into the nature of what that may mean in terms of electrochemical patterns in a physical brain versus irreducible conscious essence. And yes, Spock, didn’t need a computer cable to make that transfer, just a brain (plus some training, more than likely) that was biologically equipped to perform such a feat. Sorry, but I don’t see that a lack of a physical interface in and of itself makes all that much difference with regards to this question, any more than a FM radio broadcast is necessarily more “spiritual” or less “materialistic” than one transmitted over cable.

“You are going to have to use MY words when you describe MY views, Michael. Not your straw man translation of my views into words I did not use. I say things MY way, not YOUR way, for a reason. So before you take issue with what I say, please make sure I’m the one who’s saying it.”

Okay, fair enough. I had honestly thought that the above accurately (if colorfully) summed-up your views regarding Cameron and his capabilities as an artist. If not, my bad. (I would certainly be interested in knowing specifically which ways you consider it NOT to be accurate, if you’re so inclined.) But that sort of consideration also applies, you see, even to multimillionaire film directors who produce very popular mass entertainments when they aren’t making documentaries or crawling along the floor of the Marianas Trench. I’ve read a fair number of interviews with Jim Cameron since AVATAR’s release, and saw absolutely nothing in them in his own words advocating transhumanism or the Singularity, though he’s very forthright with his opinions on everything from global climate change to the future of movie-making technology. So, once again, it comes down to a matter of believing that a director advocates a certain thing just because he used it as a particular plot point in his film, something Orson Scott Card did a number of years ago when he criticized Eastwood’s MILLION DOLLAR BABY for supporting assisted suicide. I don’t think Card made his case then, and with respect, I don’t think you’ve made yours now.

“Are you saying that you’ve studied Philosophy of Mind and know what reductionism and materialism are, and how those things relate to transhumanism?”

“See, I recall that you’ve said of yourself that you practice some sort of CGI work. I do NOT do CGI work. And I do not talk about it as if I do. I would not, for instance, presume to tell you how to model a ship or even a simple sphere, because it’s not one of the things I know how to do. All I know about CGI is whether it convinces me or does not.

Well, let me clear that up for you. In Maya, 3ds Max and other CGI programs, boxes, spheres and other simple geometric forms (including, notoriously, the teapot) are known as ‘procedural’ objects precisely because they don’t need to be modeled: you simply click an icon on the interface and the object is instantaneously generated and ready to be textured and animated. That’s it!

No, I haven’t read anything about the Philosophy of Mind, though I consider myself (and hope you’d agree) to be somewhat articulate and able to follow reasoned arguments. I’ve read a little of Kurzweil, was not all that impressed, and the fact that a moral idiot like Glenn “Instapundit” Reynolds is a big fan of transhumanism does not recommend the concept to me. I have also studied enough philosophy in college and over the years, certainly, to be aware of the fallacy of the Argument From Authority, and so would hope that you could just make the case that AVATAR really represents, as you maintain, advocacy for a particular belief system rather than just depicting one small aspect of it, without implying that unless I’ve read an obscure book I’m not qualified to judge your claim on the merits.

“Ha! I didn’t realize you had hired me to save audiences in the first place. The pink slip doubles the shock. How much did I earn during my brief time on the job?”

Actually, I thought you’d just gone ahead and hired yourself. :-)

1387. MJ - January 2, 2014

“Well, we all know that Roddenberry was pretty much persona-non-grata at Paramount by the time THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK was filmed. But in any case, so what? Maybe Spock’s “katra” was just indeed another word for his soul (though that strikes me as much more of a human, rather than Vulcan, conceit). But TSFS, fairly dopey adventure movie that it is, certainly doesn’t begin to delve into the nature of what that may mean in terms of electrochemical patterns in a physical brain versus irreducible conscious essence. And yes, Spock, didn’t need a computer cable to make that transfer, just a brain (plus some training, more than likely) that was biologically equipped to perform such a feat. Sorry, but I don’t see that a lack of a physical interface in and of itself makes all that much difference with regards to this question, any more than a FM radio broadcast is necessarily more “spiritual” or less “materialistic” than one transmitted over cable.”

Great point, Michael. It really hadn’t occurred to me that Spock in ST-III was similar to Avatar. Yea, it is!

1388. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

i don’t really understand the argument here…

it seems to involve spirituality vs. something (materialism?)

it is also unclear how “spirituality” is viewed?

perhaps the distinction between spirituality and religion needs to be made?

I BELIEVE in Vulcan spirituality! =) I BELIEVE in Vulcan psychic abilities!

but I REJECT all religion as man-made and corrupt =(

Vulcans are the Buddhist monks of our quadrant! =)

…and yes, the Vulcan katra is obviously the spirit (or soul) =)

LL&P

1389. Michael Hall - January 2, 2014

“But I can’t tell people in a place like this all the reasons why I think it is so tragically misguided. It’s more than just an inappropriate forum; even if I tried to put it in words it would not succeed because some things people just HAVE to experience for themselves to understand.”

Well I, for one, would be interested in seeing you try, even if by personal email or some other forum if you thought it more appropriate. It may certainly be more fruitful than endless debate over what was, ultimately, just a very popular mass-market entertainment that’s mostly fallen off the cultural radar by now in any case.

“Maybe the prospect of an immortal Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld would cause you more concern?”

Oooh, now there’s a thought to chill the blood. But so long as young, fresh virgin hearts are available, Cheney will probably elect to just stick with the body he’s in anyhow.

1390. dmduncan - January 2, 2014

1386. Michael Hall – January 2, 2014

“Which isn’t much of an answer, sorry. “From what you’ve read,” really?”

I’ve posted links. If you really want to debate what I’ve said then follow them and give me substantive replies on the actual evidence instead of conveniently pretending for your non-argument that the arena for the discussion exists entirely within a movie theater or even in one movie by one man.

“Well, the Na’vi certainly don’t see it that way,”

The Na’vi are not real. They are a fictional representation that purvey ideas. They are, literally speaking, symbols, since what you and I see when we watch a movie are images that have meanings which we understand. So if you want to challenge something substantive, challenge my premise that what we see in the Na’vi either is or is not identical or substantively similar to what I’ve claimed they are similar to in transhumanist thought and objectives.

“And, to be bluntly honest, this dichotomy doesn’t seem to be all that different with “real,” modern bureacratic systems of religious belief as well. Christians, for example, may talk a good game about just having faith, but obliged to defend elements of that faith such as Young Earth Creationism in the modern, scientific (what you might call materialist) arena they seem quite content to refer to what they consider to be examples of concrete, physical proof which support their beliefs.”

And what makes you think that I think or am arguing that faith has no roots in, that is to say—that it cannot be supported and even increased by— direct experience that may or at least CAN include verification, at least parts of which can also be by the scientific method?

“Well, we all know that Roddenberry was pretty much persona-non-grata at Paramount by the time THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK was filmed. But in any case, so what?”

Ha! Seems to me you are the one who tried to bring up Roddenberry as a defense of the idea that Star Trek didn’t promote anything which audience members could reasonably view as a sort of mysticism, merely because he was a rather unreligious humanist. I just pointed out a relevant fact which you interestingly neglected to mention—that Gene Roddenberry has never been the sole contributor to Star Trek, that Star Trek, properly defined, includes MORE than ONLY what Gene Roddenberry contributed, and that Leonard Nimoy (who IS religious) created the Vulcan salute out of an influence from Judaism.

“Maybe Spock’s “katra” was just indeed another word for his soul (though that strikes me as much more of a human, rather than Vulcan, conceit). But TSFS, fairly dopey adventure movie that it is, certainly doesn’t begin to delve into the nature of what that may mean in terms of electrochemical patterns in a physical brain versus irreducible conscious essence.”

However you want to disparage the movie, it IS Star Trek, and your disparagement is irrelevant to the point I myself made that Star Trek was far more vague in the mechanics of how Spock’s skills operated in comparison to how the Na’vi operate.

“And yes, Spock, didn’t need a computer cable to make that transfer, just a brain (plus some training, more than likely) that was biologically equipped to perform such a feat.”

I don’t think you are carefully reading what I said. I claimed that how Spock did it was more vague and that in that vagueness there was more room for different interpretations regarding how it might have worked. At least I thought I said that.

“Sorry, but I don’t see that a lack of a physical interface in and of itself makes all that much difference with regards to this question, any more than a FM radio broadcast is necessarily more “spiritual” or less “materialistic” than one transmitted over cable.””

Well you may not “see it,” but how is that an argument that it isn’t so? It most certainly does make a difference whether you “see it” or not, given that what Spock does, does in fact resemble what humans actually do, and which science in belief-system mode says is impossible BECAUSE of the reductionist-materialist model of consciousness which it asserts is true.

Oh you don’t have to believe me; just look at the crap that Michael Persinger gets for the experiments he does, the results of which challenge status quo assumptions.

“I’ve read a fair number of interviews with Jim Cameron since AVATAR’s release, and saw absolutely nothing in them in his own words advocating transhumanism or the Singularity, though he’s very forthright with his opinions on everything from global climate change to the future of movie-making technology.”

Another straw man. I say transhumanism is a meme (I’ll assume you know how memes are transmitted) implicit in Avatar and even provide links to prove my point, and you bring up how James Cameron isn’t—what? Vocally crusading for transhumanism? I didn’t imply that either. once more,

“So, once again, it comes down to a matter of believing that a director advocates a certain thing just because he used it as a particular plot point in his film, something Orson Scott Card did a number of years ago when he criticized Eastwood’s MILLION DOLLAR BABY for supporting assisted suicide. I don’t think Card made his case then, and with respect, I don’t think you’ve made yours now.”

Now I agree with you with one thing. I haven’t “made” my case because that is not what any of my comments were intended to do in such an informal setting as this, anymore than when Bob argues for a JFK conspiracy here he’s giving us a treatise on all the facts and discrepancies. When I make a case for something, I am much more thorough in my writing than the types of things I say here.

So with all due respect, Michael, you can leave yourself out of whatever group of people is out there who read what I say and decide to look at it a little more outside this website beyond what very little I’ve said about it here, if it so disturbs you. But I’m not going to stop, if that’s what you’re trying to make me do.

If I’ve failed to make a case I wasn’t even trying to make airtight, you’ve done much worse in trying to impugn me with so many straw men attacks.

“Well, let me clear that up for you. In Maya, 3ds Max and other CGI programs, boxes, spheres and other simple geometric forms (including, notoriously, the teapot) are known as ‘procedural’ objects precisely because they don’t need to be modeled: you simply click an icon on the interface and the object is instantaneously generated and ready to be textured and animated. That’s it!”

See? I wasn’t lying when I said I didn’t know anything about it.

“I have also studied enough philosophy in college and over the years, certainly, to be aware of the fallacy of the Argument From Authority, and so would hope that you could just make the case that AVATAR really represents, as you maintain, advocacy for a particular belief system rather than just depicting one small aspect of it, without implying that unless I’ve read an obscure book I’m not qualified to judge your claim on the merits.”

Define “advocacy.”

“Actually, I thought you’d just gone ahead and hired yourself. :-)”

Nope. This is my world too. Movies are one thing in it, but they are a powerful thing that influences public ideas and attitudes.

I have a right to speak up or out against what concerns me, and I hope that by doing so I gain or maybe even create some anonymous allies out there. I cannot pretend to know what effects my words have whether they are substantial or inconsequential. That’s not for me to determine. All I can do is speak and hope.

It’s really nothing more complicated than that.

1391. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

I’m tending to agree with Michael Hall:

lot’s of sound and fury signifying nothing? confusing at the very least… =(

boil it down please: what are you getting at dmduncan?

1392. dmduncan - January 2, 2014

Addendum to 1390: See, I don’t think I’ve ever said James Cameron advocates transhumanism, and I tend to choose my words carefully. I think I said he’s promoting a meme, and promoting is not synonymous with advocacy.

So arguments can erupt when people translate your words into ones with slightly but significantly different meanings, and then do battle with their changes instead of what you actually said. That’s the straw man.

Advocacy is intentional and public; promotion does not have to be. It may be accidental or unconscious. A person can unintentionally promote something he or she disagrees with. “Promote” is, in this context, synonymous with the idea “to spread awareness of.”

1393. dmduncan - January 2, 2014

I think it would be constructive if anyone who wants to seriously debate anything I have said on this topic, to quote that key sentence I actually wrote at the core of my argument that you think is false. Quote my actual words right back to me, tell me how what it says is false, and I will respond.

I’ll even put what I THINK was the cause of this whole argument into a new, simple declarative sentence:

Avatar promotes transhumanist memes.

I think that sentence which I just wrote is not only true, but easily demonstrable. If you accept the existence of memes in general and of transhumanist memes in particular, then I would REALLY like to hear you argue that they are not in Avatar.

1394. Marja - January 2, 2014

Well, folks … I stubbornly cling to the idea of a soul, separate from the brain’s functions.

If that makes me dumb in some peoples’ eyes, that’s their perception.

1395. Michael Hall - January 2, 2014

“I’ve posted links. If you really want to debate what I’ve said then follow them and give me substantive replies on the actual evidence instead of conveniently pretending for your non-argument that the arena for the discussion exists entirely within a movie theater or even in one movie by one man.”

Sure, I’ll check on them and get back to you. (Though why you won’t just restate that evidence here for our benefit is anyone’s guess.) My guess, entirely based on what you’ve written here, is that they’ll strike me as more suppositional about whatever “memes” (yes, I’m familiar with the concept) than anything resembling proof. But, maybe I’ll be surprised.

“The Na’vi are not real.”

And neither are Grace Augustine, the S.S. Venture Star, Jake Sully, Miles Quaritch, or the world of Pandora. They are all fictions, or things that stand for other things. My point was that the Na’vi view their world, and both the literal and figurative connections they have with it, in ways that are both personal and conceptual and not all that different–perhaps unfortunately, and to the film’s detriment–than that of Native American folklore. Grace Augustine views the same facts through her own set of cultural filters, which tend to be materialistic, and reductionist, though that attitude seems to change somewhat by the end of her journey. That Cameron chose to portray an aspect of existence for a fictional alien race living on a world circling a star light-years away, which parallels a potential real-world possibility you happen to disfavor, doesn’t make him guilty of pushing a meme. So far as I can still tell, it’s just a plot-point in a movie.

“And what makes you think that I think or am arguing that faith has no roots in, that is to say—that it cannot be supported and even increased by— direct experience that may or at least CAN include verification, at least parts of which can also be by the scientific method?”

I have no idea if you’re making that argument or not. But it sure seems at odds with your apparent dislike of a “reductionist” or “materialist” worldview, which would argue that everything from a mind-meld, compassion, and the beauty of a rainbow is quantifiable and subject to some kind of scientific analysis and explanation. Now, I certainly don’t believe that myself, for whatever that’s worth. I very much doubt that James Cameron does either, or that Gene Roddenberry did. But I strongly suspect that Richard Dawkins believes it, and that Mr. Spock (at least in his Kohlinar phase) certainly would as well.

“However you want to disparage the movie, it IS Star Trek, and your disparagement is irrelevant to the point I myself made that Star Trek was far more vague in the mechanics of how Spock’s skills operated in comparison to how the Na’vi operate. . . I don’t think you are carefully reading what I said. I claimed that how Spock did it was more vague and that in that vagueness there was more room for different interpretations regarding how it might have worked. At least I thought I said that. “

Interesting you think that “vagueness” is what really matters here. Because, however vague, there are only two possibilities for the mind-meld: that its basis is natural, a by-product of the Vulcan brain’s evolutionary development and cultural training, or it is supernatural, owing its existence to arcane ritual and belief that are not amenable to scientific analysis. I would say that everything we know about the Star Trek universe, including the attitudes of the Vulcans as well as the Enterprise’s mission itself, indubitably argues for the former.

(Incidentally, I enjoyed TSFS immensely when I first saw it in the theater. Always great to revisit with old friends, and ILM’s FX work was way more expansive that anything TOS could give us. It still holds up reasonably well. The themes of friendship and sacrifice aren’t bad either. But Nimoy just isn’t very interesting or inspired as a director–as Pauline Kael said at the time, it’s the first film ever directed by a Vulcan–and the whole thing in retrospect is pretty kludgy fan service.)

“Well you may not “see it,” but how is that an argument that it isn’t so?”

And where is your argument on how it is? The last I saw, humans are incapable of melding their consciousness either by application of finger to temple or by ethernet connection. What makes one more spiritually palatable, or more reductionist/materialistic, than the other?

“So with all due respect, Michael, you can leave yourself out of whatever group of people is out there who read what I say and decide to look at it a little more outside this website beyond what very little I’ve said about it here, if it so disturbs you. But I’m not going to stop, if that’s what you’re trying to make me do.”

What makes you think I’m trying to shut you down here, dm? We’re having a discussion, because I’ve always respected your opinion and am trying, so far without success, to understand where you’re coming from with regards to AVATAR and this idea or meme you think it’s trying to push. FWIW, I can drop my questions if they bother or offend you.

(Also, FWIW, your concerns regarding the idea of transhumanism I do understand, though I’m not sure there’s much at this point to be done about it. As Jim Morrison once put it, The future’s uncertain and/The end is always near. As you say, all we can do is speak, and hope. Though I must say that TH is far from the top of my current list of concerns.)

“Define “advocacy.”

Well, why don’t you define it? Bottom line: what is it you think Cameron, consciously or unconsciously, is trying to accomplish here?

1396. Marja - January 2, 2014

And I don’t know about you guys, but thinking of an immortal Dick Cheney just brings to mind the idea of his head in a jar, as in “Futurama” … saying “I say we go to war!” over and over ;-)

1397. Marja - January 2, 2014

And thanks, Michael Hall and DMDuncan, for an intellectually stimulating discussion. You guys have enhanced the last few days on TrekMovie!

1398. Michael Hall - January 2, 2014

“Well, folks … I stubbornly cling to the idea of a soul, separate from the brain’s functions. . .If that makes me dumb in some peoples’ eyes, that’s their perception.”

I don’t think it makes you dumb at all. Personally, I have no idea. I suppose we’ll all find out eventually. :-)

1399. dmduncan - January 2, 2014

1396. Marja – January 2, 2014

1. Thanks Marja.

2. I just find the prospect of a mechanical Dick Cheney who will live forever, involved in politics, darkly amusing.

3. You would not be the “dumb” one. ;-)

1400. Marja - January 2, 2014

1383 Ahmed, I find Hollywood dress-for-success styles amusing, to say the least.

Ever seeking a more sophisticated brand of t-shirt and so on.

Silk-weave t-shirts or turtlenecks for the premieres, boys.

While ladies totter in 6″ stilettos and barely-there gowns.

It’s a man’s world out there in Hollywood for sure.

1401. Michael Hall - January 2, 2014

” I just find the prospect of a mechanical Dick Cheney who will live forever, involved in politics, darkly amusing.”

Sounds like Richard Nixon’s head grafted to the heavily-armed cyborg body from the first season of Futurama. Though the mechanical Cheney would probably be a lot more destructive, and a lot less funny.

All kidding aside, I’m hard-put to think of a more purely evil figure in American political life, at least in my lifetime.

1402. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

HEH! I thought of Futurama too! …but Cheney doesn’t deserve a head…!

…he would be more like Agnew’s headless body! LOL! =D

1403. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

more evil?? W. Bush is the F’n Anti-Christ!! Cheney’s just a hellish minion…

1404. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

Marja: you certainly NOT dumb =)

you are correct: the brain is just an organ of the body… distinct from mind AND spirit =)

1405. Michael Hall - January 2, 2014

“more evil?? W. Bush is the F’n Anti-Christ!! Cheney’s just a hellish minion…”

Now, that’s where we disagree, Not-Herbert. :-) In fact, I see it as precisely the opposite, whatever their job titles.

1406. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

dmduncan: “Avatar promotes transhumanist memes.” FINALLY!

yeah, no, i must disagree: IMHO the moral of Avatar is spiritual connection to nature (Creation).

the selfish, greedy humans who use technology to enhance themselves are the protagonists =(

the blue people are naturally good, with a gnostic spiritual connection to their planetary “mother” =)

1407. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

Cheney seems to have more evil genius, but “W” Bush still outranks him in Hell (as well as on Earth)… ;-)

1408. MJ - January 2, 2014

“I don’t think you are carefully reading what I said. I claimed that how Spock did it was more vague and that in that vagueness there was more room for different interpretations regarding how it might have worked. At least I thought I said that.”

DM, that is bit of a cop-out. It’s pretty obvious that McCoy biological downloaded Spock’s memories, and then those were extracted on Vulcan in the new clone body of Spock. It’s very similar to Avatar in that regard. This is “the most obvious interpretation” that is presented to us. Sure, you are free to make less obvious interpretations though.

To get to the root of the matter, you seem hung up on “where does the soul go?” Well, I think that is immaterial if the individual in question can’t tell the difference between the new version of himself and the old self.

And if Avatar was real, then if there was a God like of the Bible type, and he refused admittance to Jake2-Navi into heaven because he no longer had a soul (which presumably went with the original Jake1-human), then I would say screw that God, and he is not a being I would personally care to worship.

1409. MJ - January 2, 2014

“W. Bush is the F’n Anti-Christ!!”

With such a remark, you are coming across as extreme as he did.

Bush and Obama are ineffectual leaders who were not ready for the job, nor did they grow into the job. I don’t see much difference between them.

Only two pretty good presidents in my adult lifetime — Reagan and Clinton.

1410. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

correction: antagonists (selfish, greedy humans)

1411. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

Mabus (the anti-christ) is an anagram of W Bush (see: Nostradamus)

…but let’s not get started down THAT dark road… =(

1412. Michael Hall - January 2, 2014

“Well, I think that is immaterial if the individual in question can’t tell the difference between the new version of himself and the old self.”

For a fascinating, if harrowing, examination of the idea of selfhood and what would really distinguish us from an exact duplicate, check out the short story “Think Like a Dinosaur” by James Patrick Kelly. (Or you can hunt down a copy of the very first original ST novel “Spock Must Die!” by James Blish, which actually ain’t bad either.)

1413. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

OMG!!: “Spock Must Die!” …that was some heavy stuff ;-)

1414. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

Obama is only “ineffectual” because of hateful, racist obstruction… =(

…but let’s not get started down THAT dark road… =(

1415. Michael Hall - January 2, 2014

I would definitely agree that Obama has been disastrously ineffectual, whatever the reason.

The Cheney administration, by contrast, was entirely too effectual. A disastrous interlude for this country, and the rest of humanity. We’ll be decades, if ever, repairing the damage.

1416. dmduncan - January 2, 2014

1407. MJ – January 2, 2014

DM, that is bit of a cop-out. It’s pretty obvious that McCoy biological downloaded Spock’s memories, and then those were extracted on Vulcan in the new clone body of Spock. It’s very similar to Avatar in that regard. This is “the most obvious interpretation” that is presented to us. Sure, you are free to make less obvious interpretations though.

***

Nope. There is absolutely NOWHERE in TSFS where they even HINT at such a thing. Where did McCoy do that? ON what second of my DVD can I find the scene where McCoy biologically downloads Spock’s soul, and what does that even mean? Sounds exactly like what teh materialists would call pseudoscientific “mumbo jumbo” to me. Even the scene where Spock is restored occurs without technology. It looks completely mystical.

How you would think that it’s “obvious” is rather mysterious. Obvious to you, maybe, because you know how you have interpreted what you saw. But not obvious to me because I saw something completely different.

Spock’s “mind-meld” physical touch is the only thing I ever remember offered as any way of explanation, and how Spock’s soul can be biologically downloaded by touching McCoy is a complete mystery.

So what I said stands. How Spock does what he does is vague. Literally.

There is no known scientific or even non-scientific in-universe explanation for how data can be transferred through fingertips. Literally. Totally unlike the Na’vi who use their hair-thernet cables to upload and download data exactly like a technology we are familiar with.

And if there is no science behind it, then it’s functionally indistinct from what some would call voodoo.

You are certainly welcome to have your interpretation, but you can’t point to anything in TSFS that makes your interpretation more accurate than mine, and that is because what happens when Spock does what he does IS so vague.

Because it is so vague, I am just as able as you to assign a different interpretation.

It looks psychic to me, exactly like what happens when psychics touch a person, or objects belonging to them when they are not available, to get psychic information.

Star Trek allows me to have that interpretation for Spock; I wouldn’t know HOW to have it for the Na’vi given how exact James Cameron was in showing their method of data transference.

“And if Avatar was real, then if there was a God like of the Bible type, and he refused admittance to Jake2-Navi into heaven because he no longer had a soul (which presumably went with the original Jake1-human), then I would say screw that God, and he is not a being I would personally care to worship.”

Well, what you say to God is between you and Him. The way I understand it, it will be you who will condemn yourself by the choices you make, like Captain Ahab who refuses to let go the whale. So your ultimate fate is up to you.

But if you’ve really been reading my posts, you’d see that I said I’m not all that concerned the transhumanists will be successful transferring themselves to machines, whether made of teflon and steel or something organic.

I’m far more concerned about the AI they are trying to develop which they think will usher in the post human age. I think it’s more likely that they will create something Borg or V’ger-like, than Avatar like, even though the Avatar is the direct goal.

1417. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

in that scenario, McCoy is not active – he is merely a vessel…

Spock, knowing his actions will kill his body, impresses his katra (spirit) onto McCoy’s mind / body / spirit complex… to preserve his “essence” (spirit)… in effect McCoy’s body is now housing two spirits…

…until such a time as Spock’s katra can be (spiritually) transferred from McCoy’s body to Spock’s “Genesis clone” body.

…hope this clears things up? =)

1418. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

…also, your story seems to be changing.. so, i’m still confused… =(

oh well… letting go now… sigh…

1419. MJ - January 2, 2014

“Nope. There is absolutely NOWHERE in TSFS where they even HINT at such a thing.”

That’s not accurate. At the beginning of the movie, McCoy is having trouble controlling Spock’s mind withing his own brain, which these two exchanges clearly show:

Exchange 1:

McCOY
Quo vadis, Admiral…

KIRK
What is that supposed to mean?

McCOY
What is our destination?

KIRK
We’ll be orbiting Earth in two
hours.

McCOY
Then we’re headed in the wrong
direction.

KIRK
(warning)
Bones, don’t do this. This is
me. Jim. Your friend.

McCOY
And I have been, and always shall
be, yours.

KIRK
Damn it, Bones, don’t quote Spock
to me! I have enough pain of my
own and I don’t need your — self-
indulgence!

Bones, his eyes far away, turns to make contact. In a
matter-of-fact voice:

McCOY
You left me. You left me on
Genesis. Why did you do that?

KIRK
(aghast)
… What the hell are you saying?

Even Bones is stunned by what has come out of his
mouth. He tries to cope with his own disorientation.

Exchange 2:

40 INT. SPOCK’S QUARTERS – LOW KEY LIGHTING 40

It is dark and shadowy as Kirk enters. He peers, try-
ing to adjust his eyesight to the darkness. He steps
forward carefully — trips temporarily on some small
object — but recovers. He moves slowly inward, then
stops, staring into the impenetrable dark. Then he
reacts, as we hear SPOCK’S VOICE. It is hoarse, raspy,
as it was in the final scene with Kirk in Star Trek
II. But is unmistakably Spock.

THE VOICE
Jim… Help me… take me… up
the steps… of Mount Seleya…
through the hall of ancient
thought…

41 CLOSE – KIRK 41

Shaken now. He strains into the darkness, looking —

41A KIRK’S POV 41A

CAMERA PANS the darkened room and COMES TO REST as we
see a shadowy figure in the far corner.

41B BACK TO KIRK 41B

as he starts forward, all senses alert. As he nears
the figure, whoever it is starts to flee, and Kirk
grapples with him, like Jacob with the dark Angel. And
Kirk pulls him down, panting, and the figure is il-
luminated by a shaft of light, and it is —

42 TWO SHOT 42

— Bones McCoy. Emotionally drained, eyes wide —

KIRK
Bones, what the hell are you
doing? Have you lost your mind!

McCOY
(his own voice, but
raspy, drained)
… Help me, Jim… Take me home.

KIRK
That’s where we are, Bones. we
are home.

McCOY
… Then perhaps there is still
time… Climb the steps, Jim…
Climb the steps of Mount Seleya…

KIRK
Mount Seleya? Bones, Mount Seleya
is on Vulcan! We’re home on
Earth!

Bones looks at him, trying to comprehend. When he
opens his mouth; it is, for one brief moment, SPOCK’S
VOICE that emerges:

McCOY
(in Spock’s voice)
Remember!
(and again)
Remember!

And then, for the other part of your post:

“It looks psychic to me, exactly like what happens when psychics touch a person, or objects belonging to them when they are not available, to get psychic information.”

And what does this mean exactly? How does this work?

It seems rather unfair to me that I provide a concrete explanation for how it worked, while you get to pick a theory that pretty much reliefs on just a belief of an un-provable and unknown metaphysical process. With that sort of argument, you’ve set yourself up nicely to be able to argue your position without having to provide any evidence or provable logic steps at all.

1420. Marja - January 2, 2014

1407 MJ, I think Jake-1’s soul / personality was safe in his new Na’avi body. And re: Obama – he would have been incredibly effectual if we’d had a non-obstructionist Congress. They’ve sought to block his every initiative and made him bend to near-breaking on the ACA. He’s had to give up a lot of outstanding initiatives b/c Congress is practicing Nancy Reagan’s idea of “Just Say No!”

All: Here’s what Cheney deserves in a “second life.” He deserves to come back in a youthful, strong body with a strong heart, and his mind intact. [wait for it]

Only he needs to be from the non-privileged classes who take jobs in the military’s AVF because they see no other way to apply their intelligence and earn a living. Then he should get sent to a war waged by profiteers, and get a couple of his limbs blown off.

1421. Marja - January 2, 2014

This “Spock transferring his katra into McCoy” begs the question — since he did not ask McCoy’s permission first — how different is this from what Evil Spock did to McCoy in “Mirror, Mirror”?

I like Vulcan mysticism, it seems so out-of-character for logical beings, but their civilization reaches back many centuries, so I guess that can explain a lot. And what civilization is not ridden with illogic somewhere in its belief systems?

But the Trek-world reasoning behind Spock’s action is a bit discomfiting, while Paramount’s reasoning is obvious: they had no Trek w/o Nimoy.

1422. MJ - January 2, 2014

And DM, it you take your position to the extreme, then you should be completely against transporters, because the first time your use one, you really just ended you original soul once and for all. Everytime you use the transporter, you are killed, and then why is essentially a quantum-clone is created anew in a different part of space. But it ain’t you anymore, as you soul and essence are gone — again, taking what you are saying to the extreme.

Transporting would thus be considered a “fast-food” version of Avatar science.

1423. I am not Herbert - January 2, 2014

1. Spirituality (NOT mysticism) is VERY LOGICAL.

2. Karma is inescapable (“Cheney” will “learn his lesson”, eventually)

3. Spock had no choice. ;-)

4. Obama will give us (some of) the TRUTH, soon… ;-)

5. sorry, MJ, can’t back you on the transporter thing…

1424. MJ - January 2, 2014

Part 2 of 2:

Exchange 2:

40 INT. SPOCK’S QUARTERS – LOW KEY LIGHTING 40

It is dark and shadowy as Kirk enters. He peers, try-
ing to adjust his eyesight to the darkness. He steps
forward carefully — trips temporarily on some small
object — but recovers. He moves slowly inward, then
stops, staring into the impenetrable dark. Then he
reacts, as we hear SPOCK’S VOICE. It is hoarse, raspy,
as it was in the final scene with Kirk in Star Trek
II. But is unmistakably Spock.

THE VOICE
Jim… Help me… take me… up
the steps… of Mount Seleya…
through the hall of ancient
thought…

41 CLOSE – KIRK 41

Shaken now. He strains into the darkness, looking —

41A KIRK’S POV 41A

CAMERA PANS the darkened room and COMES TO REST as we
see a shadowy figure in the far corner.

41B BACK TO KIRK 41B

as he starts forward, all senses alert. As he nears
the figure, whoever it is starts to flee, and Kirk
grapples with him, like Jacob with the dark Angel. And
Kirk pulls him down, panting, and the figure is il-
luminated by a shaft of light, and it is —

42 TWO SHOT 42

— Bones McCoy. Emotionally drained, eyes wide —