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JJ’verse news bites January 27, 2014

by Matt Wright , Filed under: ST: Into Darkness Sequel,Star Trek Into Darkness , trackback

Sadly, we still don’t have anything concrete about the next Star Trek movie. But here are news bits to help try and tide us over in this drought. Orci speaks to the press about Trek 3, but it’s cryptic as usual. Pine says he’d like to see Kirk go even darker in Trek 3, and Into Darkness is nominated for an Academy Award for best visual effects. Read on for all the details.

Trek 3 – original story or inspired by Prime Trek? A little bit of both says Orci.

orci_mlp

…Would Orci and his cowriters focus on an original Trek story next time or stay in the classic Trek world?

“Little bit of both,” Orci said. “Part of the fun of the freedom that we bought ourselves is that you can harmonize with canon and you can echo what’s come before, so you can do it in a new way.”

This is another great non-answer from Bob since he can’t really divulge anything. In fact the only thing we do know, thanks to a comment he made here at TrekMovie, is that he started preliminary work for the script sometime after the New Year.

— Source: Crave Online

Pine says he wants Kirk to “go dark” in Trek 3

chris_pine_totalfilm

While out on a press tour for his new film “Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit“, Chris Pine said he wants to see Kirk go darker in tone.

Q: “If you were to sit down with the writers of Star Trek III and request any scene or moment for Kirk, what would that be?”

A: “Well, for anybody who’s seen the second one,” said Pine, “given the fact that Kirk’s been revived by Khan’s blood, I think there’s definitely room for Kirk to go dark, which we’ve obviously seen in the original series, and that would be fun, I think.”

It’s pretty clear that Pine was just chatting it up while on a press junket. He has no special knowledge of the next movie (considering the first draft is just being written right now). It’s also a bit of a silly thing to say when:

A. It’s not inherent in Kirk (in either universe) to be super dark.

B. Being dark is literally in the title of the last movie: Into Darkness, which was indeed pretty bleak for much of the movie.

C. It sure seems like that at end of Into Darkness that those grim few years following the events of Star Trek (2009) instigated by Admiral Markus and his paranoid programs of arming for a war (any war will do) had been mostly shut down and everyone is looking to move forward in a more positive light of exploration on the new 5-year mission.

— Source: Total Film

Into Darkness nominated for VFX Oscar

oscar_statue

The very talented team at ILM, lead by Roger Guyett, has been nominated for technical Oscar for their visual effects work on Star Trek Into Darkness.  ILM always does amazing work, however they have some stiff competition in the category including the effects houses behind Gravity, The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug, Iron Man 3, and The Lone Ranger.

— Source: Oscar.go.com via TrekCore

Comments

1. Xplodin_Nacelle - January 27, 2014

Bob Orci,

Please keep it light, ala: The Voyage Home.

2. Ciarán - January 27, 2014

My first hope for the 50th anniversary movie is that it opens with a great opening title sequence scored to Michael Giacchino’s fantastically big orchestration of the TOS theme (from the end credits of the last 2 movies).

3. CmdrR - January 27, 2014

Just a good story, please. Focus on the characters, not huge ‘splosions, fist fights, or discovering God needs a starship. Just a good story with conflict involving who these people hope to become as members of the Federation.

4. smike - January 27, 2014

@ “discovering God needs a starship”: At least that would be some sort of departure from the “madman trying to blow up everything with huge superweapon” approach of the last 3-4 movies. The one thing I dread the most is just another Enterprise vs. Supership story, this time featuring the “ultimate” Klingon Thunderbird…

I’m somewhat afraid, the Khan’s Superblood storyline isn’t over. The Klingons may know that blood is now in Kirk. And we all know Klingons have a history with human augments. That MIGHT be an insteresting premise, but if the Klingons kidnap Kirk and Spock has to steal the Enterprise from Spacedock to save him…well, you know… it has happened before….and it’ll happen again… and the Borg were created by man, and they have a plan…

5. Captain Braxton - January 27, 2014

Mr Orci, just do this:

http://youtu.be/PLNEkXk9vcs

Then you can start writing for the Prime Universe aka the universe people really care about & want to see progress. Go on! JJ has fled, your free to unleash your true Trek geekness! ;)

(I jest of course)

6. Vultan - January 27, 2014

“harmonize with canon”

Wow, is STID really what you’d call harmony? Yikes.
Sounds like we’ll get more of the same, uh, retooling.

Come on, take the training wheels off already!
New universe, new stories, remember?

7. Michael Hall - January 27, 2014

“Part of the fun of the freedom that we bought ourselves is that you can harmonize with canon and you can echo what’s come before, so you can do it in a new way.”

With all respect, I think the writers wound up having a lot more fun playing those sorts of games than either the diehards or general audiences did in the case of INTO DARKNESS.

If there’s one thing the last two movies conclusively demonstrated, it’s that it ain’t 1969, or even 1982 anymore. Just get on with it, and tell a great story.

8. Ahmed - January 27, 2014

“you can harmonize with canon and you can echo what’s come before, so you can do it in a new way.”

By a new way, guess he meant turning Khan into a British lad !!

So, I guess that we should expect to see the crew in the next movie trying to save the dolphins, instead of whales. After all, this will “echo what’s come before” but in a “new way” !!!

@6. Vultan – January 27, 2014

“New universe, new stories, remember?”

Nope, apparently the writing team still live in an echo chamber!

9. J - January 27, 2014

Again with the dark thing? Jesus Tap-dancing Christ.

10. NuFan - January 27, 2014

Obliterate canon!!!!!

11. Check the Circuit - January 27, 2014

This is just my interpretation of Chris Pine’s comment, but when he referenced Khan’s blood, I thought he meant it could effect Kirk’s personality. Something along the lines of The Enemy Within…but with Khan’s blood as a catalyst instead of a transporter malfunction that allows certain dark impulses to motivate/alter his character.

12. Who cares - January 27, 2014

IDW has announced an upcoming storyline for their ongoing Orci-overseen Trek series where James Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise will encounter… Jane Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise.

13. Tobias Richter - January 27, 2014

PLEASE, no more rehash of old stories! Show us the vastness of the universe, explore new worlds, explore those characters – not only in pointless action sequences! You can do it….

14. Finnigan - January 27, 2014

After disappointingly bad writing on STID, I am not going to get my hopes up. I look forward to another attempt at new Trek but I remain skeptical.

15. somethoughts - January 27, 2014

Borg origins storyline, The guardian, more time travel and a borgified spock mmmmm

Borgified Klingons, good Khan.

16. C - January 27, 2014

Star Trek must copy, yes copy the recent movies that made big bucks, put it in space and we will love it.

one sample:
The Hobbit 2
IN SPACE LOTS GOING ON AND ON PLANET SURFACE A TREK TO RELEASE THE ENTERPRISE.

17. Platitude - January 27, 2014

Would love to see something new, though I wouldn’t mind seeing some more Klingons in the mix.

18. Jeff Chanowski - January 27, 2014

The 2 Abrams movies although tittled “Star Trek” sure are not. They tossed out 40 plus years of canon for this rebooted Star Wars cousin. It’s horrific! I hope they can fix this mess. I would love to see them go back to the prime universe in the next movie….even if its just for a peek to show us its still there. Maybe they can take Prime Spock back where he belongs. That would be cool and impressive. Plus, give us a plot with some moral struggle to it. Show us a story that doesn’t have lazy, quick fix devices in it like transwarp beaming or magic blood. Give us a good ride with some action, but something that will invest us in the alternate universe characters lives. Franco

19. Phil - January 27, 2014

RE: Point C. It’s a bit of a stretch to assume that the Marcus affair was just some loose cannon admiral run amuck. Carol conceals her identity, the assumption is she is a plant from the admiral. She states later that her father fed her specs for the new weapons. However, when Marcus chases Enterprise down in the last act, he doesn’t seem to know she’s on the ship. So, either she was supposed to be off Enterprise (not likely) or Marcus didn’t send her there – someone else did. We know from Trek 09 that it took Starfleet 6-7 years to build Enterprise, which means the bigger Vengeance had to be under construction at the same time. There are enough clues floating around STID to suggest that Starfleets push toward militarization was well under way when Marcus found Khan. It’s unlikely that this massive black ops project just went away after a year.

20. Craiger - January 27, 2014

Why bother rebooting? They should have just done a complete remake. They could even veer away from strict canon with a complete remake.They also wouldn’t even need to have time travel in the first one. Even though I liked the first one. Second one was just ok. The three pictures could have consisted of the first one of Kirk and crew growing up then Kirk entering the Academy. The second one Kirk and crew’s first assignments. Then the final one Kirk and crew getting posted to the Enterprise under Captain Pike. Could they have made something like that trilogy action packed?

21. Phil - January 27, 2014

Last point – Carol was clearly up to her armpits in Section 31. If Starfleet cleaned up the mess, and conspired with her father, she should be in prison, convicted of treason, as her father would have been had Khan not popped his head like a grape. Instead, she’s on Enterprise as they head off on the five year mission. Khan destroys SF Headquarters and a quarter of San Francisco – no prison time, but back into deep freeze in a warehouse somewhere. To the contrary, the end of STID suggests the whole thing was covered up, swept under the rug, and no one was held accountable.

I thin the argument could be made that, convincingly, that in this universe it’s the Federation that’s the authoritarian regime.

22. Vultan - January 27, 2014

The corrupt Federation/Admiral storyline has been done to death, right along with revenge minded villains and big bad enemy ships with super weapons.

Get on with the 5 year mission in the next one. Let’s see the frontier. Leave Earth in the rear view. Use Indiana Jones as an example. How long did we see him hanging around the university?

23. JAFO - January 27, 2014

Pay whatever the cost and put Harlan Ellisons original script for City on the Edge of Forever up on the big screen…

24. somethoughts - January 27, 2014

#22

Im all for a quest in space movie, exploring all elements, fire, ice, rain, dry looking for map of milky way, sorta like treasure hunt in space, like hobbit, lotr, indiana jones etc. lots of great visuals, character moments, action and twists…

25. somethoughts - January 27, 2014

Kirk fighting lizard man :)

26. Captain, USS Northstar - January 27, 2014

@22 and 24:

There was an excellent ST: TNG story along those lines — can’t remember the episode name, but it was quite good. I agree with the “treasure hunt” idea — could be an excellent adventure!

Just my two cents’ worth.

27. Matt Wright - January 27, 2014

@ 19 – Sorry, but that whole thing suddenly appears in a year. The dates mentioned in both films bare it out (STID is set in 2259, ST 2009 present day is set in 2258). It’s typical Hollywood narrative shortcutting. Somehow in less than a year Adm. Markus found the Botany Bay, thawed out Khan, blackmailed him into making the torpedoes and helping him design the Vengance. Now I’ll grant you that perhaps the Vengeance was already in planning as the Admiral’s flagship, and then Khan helped design the weapons systems, etc. But that’s not ever mentioned on screen in that context. The rest of it happens in a year though.

28. Matt Wright - January 27, 2014

@ 26 – You’re thinking of Season 6’s “The Chase”
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Chase_(episode)

29. Vultan - January 27, 2014

I thought The Chase had an okay story. The direction could have been more exciting though. A bit flat in parts.

30. Captain, USS Northstar - January 27, 2014

@28 — That’s the one! Thanks. I think it would make a nice starting point for a story worthy of the 50th Anniversary — but that’s just me.

I appreciate the response.

31. Curious Cadet - January 27, 2014

@27. Matt Wright,
“Somehow in less than a year Adm. Markus found the Botany Bay, thawed out Khan, blackmailed him into making the torpedoes and helping him design the Vengance.”

It’s actually worse than that. Orci’s semi-canon official narrative is that Marcus found the Botany Bay, thawed out Khan specifically, changed his physical identity, wiped his memory thoroughly of who he was, then completely re-educated him in 23rd century physics and engineering, then put him to work designing weapons, stealth torpedoes, and completing the Vengeance (which WAS almost completed), as well as blowing up the Klingon moon Praxis, and then finally discovering his true identity, locating the 72 cryo pods and devising a way to smuggle them out in torpedoes he designed.

All of THAT was within a year.

32. MJ - January 27, 2014

We need this movie to be epic again. Epic in like Star Trek 2009. Need a return to that epic form here.

33. LOFC_Ed - January 27, 2014

@26

Wasn’t the episode ‘The Pegasus’ was it? He was a rogue admiral…well in a way.

34. Marja - January 27, 2014

31 Curious, in that case Mr Orci is woefully uninformed about civilian oversight, military funding, contracting, design, shipbuilding and all that.

Surprising in view of Trek09.

And disappointing. I’m willing to suspend disbelief to a point, BUT.

35. Marja - January 27, 2014

If Kirk goes dark, then Spock will have to kick his ass.

LET’S NOT.

Let’s come up with something science-ficcy and original this time. Let’s explore. Let’s not get too caught up in other projects to give Trek its due. Let’s not do a referential jobbo, ok BobO?

36. Cygnus-X1 - January 27, 2014

19. Phil – January 27, 2014

I appreciate your efforts, but you’re just making up your own “fanon.”

None of what you’re presuming was even remotely implied in STID.

Carol Marcus was just there to give us some T&A and to set up the climax of the story. That’s it.

37. Phil - January 27, 2014

@31. Let’s not forget the infrastructure now. Unless Marcus and Khan were a two man show, the facilities needed to be built and manned to build these exotic weapons, whatever raw materials that were needed had to be sourced, processed and delivered (either that, or someone ordered up an obscene number of replicators), exotic new propulsion, weapons and data systems needed to be tested, and crews needed to be trained. Further, whatever passed for civilian oversight apparently had to be bribed, or extorted to look the other way.

Sorry, but behind every megalomaniac there is a willing labor force building his arms of conquest. Or unlimited slave labor. There was a flippin model of Vengeance on Marcus desk, for Christ sake. If this program is secret, it has to be the worst kept secret in the Federation. And Carol Marcus, who was up to her eyeballs in her fathers business, is a free woman. Something’s afoul in the Federation, I fear…

38. Who cares - January 27, 2014

@Matt. Oh I’m sorry I didn’t realize you had personally talked to CBS or Mr Dorn about the seriousness of his Trek TV pitch. So I guess the multiple news reports about there being interest at CBS in Dorn’s pitch were just CBS punking the fans then.

As for the statement by JJ, it is the only official statement that has been made by anyone involved, it that is not the case then mister Les Mooves needs to open his mouth and make a statement to the contrary, until he does JJ’s statement is the last word on the subject. Of course since it is well known that Moonves dislikes Trek I have no problem believing that statement.

39. John from Cincinnati - January 27, 2014

A few of the elements I would like to see in the next movie:

A totally new, original threat
Guardian of Forever
Talosians
Cestus III
Carol Marcus contracting a disease that permanently turns her into a hairy ape-like creature
Jean-Luc PIcard’s ancestors
Dr. Noonien Soong and Spock meet, debate
The origins of Dark Matter
An explanation how Prime Spock failed his mission trying to save Romulus in the Prime Universe. Prime Spock doesn’t fail.
Uhura and Spock break up
Scotty reimagines the bridge into a more, gray and black with red railing design
Uhura contracts the aging disease seen in The Deadly Years and must retire from Starfleet as an elderly person
The Orion Pirates take over the sector of space with the Guardian of Forever and wreak havoc in all the pasts and different universes.
The Orion slave women restore the universe almost like it was, except they enslave all men as their own personal sex slaves.
The demon Pazuzu from the Exorcist is encountered by the Enterprise crew and must defeat him.

40. Ahmed - January 27, 2014

Beside Star Trek XIII, Bob has two major movies coming out in 2016, The Mummy & The Amazing Spider-Man 3. Not to mention the other TV & movie projects that he will be hired to write/producer from now to 2016.

You gotta admire the guy for tackling all these various projects at the same time but I can’t help wondering if the quality of these projects will suffer somehow!

41. I am not Herbert - January 27, 2014

…stop wondering: the quality sucks =(

42. I am not Herbert - January 27, 2014

…hopefully, Godzilla will be good =)

43. Cygnus-X1 - January 27, 2014

39. John from Cincinnati – January 27, 2014

From your lips to Bog’s ears.

44. Ash - January 28, 2014

I wouldn’t be entirely against seeing Kirk go a little dark. Start flying off the handle a bit and Spock and Bones working together (finally getting the screen time and relationship development together they need) along with the crew to get him back to normal.

We really need more of the Triumvirate in the next one if possible. Those three need to start becoming what they are meant to be.

And, as John from Cincinnati said, END that Spock/uhura thing. Really, that’s about enough of that. It’s lost its charm, if it ever had any…

I would also like to see Uhura and Carol working/talking together. I mean, two brilliant, beautiful women on that ship we can have at least one scene with them. We have two lead females now, lets get them together and watch them be HBIC. Carol is a freaking DOCTOR of advanced weapons for gods sake. Torpedoes! that is probably the most badass thing I’ve heard in a while.

45. kiltedkendu - January 28, 2014

here’s a simple idea for ST XIII:
a spaceship skirmish where the valiant Enterprise DOESN’T get the snot kicked out of it by the Big Black Supership of the Week.

I mean, for Zeus’s sake, this is supposedly the most advanced ship in all of Starfleet and it’s repeatedly being shot to shreds by superior weapons, having little to absolutely zero shields in effect and/or falling out of the sky.
The ONLY time this hot rod had any good side was when it was blasting an already crippled target.
That’s really all I want for in NuTrek 3.

46. NCC-73515 - January 28, 2014

Please show us some of the aftermath of the Section 31 conspiracy! Its political effects and so forth would be very interesting…

47. Maximus - January 28, 2014

Jeezus These writers are total garbage.

48. Greg Stamper - January 28, 2014

Get Away From Earth!

49. The Keeper - January 28, 2014

Orci stil on the writing team? Guss we can all look forward to another throw away story with Khan and Klingons.
To boldly go where there was no need to go.
Orci should say “F” off to the original fans now before he even writes a single word. You know, the fans that actually keep the franchise alive.
And our wonderful talented actors will be given crap to wok with again.
Oh well.
I’ll keep reading updates here and warning all about what they really mean.

50. c - January 28, 2014

The Enterprise in danger of capture by Klingons, actually gets taken to Qronos but a new Vulcan boy saves her and Spock is jealous of him…Uhura likes.

Away from Earth, Enterprise for destruction not earth, cadets in training aboard, Kirks friend from where no man…does not play a roll in the movie other then a buddy and please give me Riley!!!

51. Admiral_Bumblebee - January 28, 2014

Even if I repeat myself, but Trek 3 needs to be big as it is the 50th anniversary of Star Trek!

This is the perfect time to bring crews together, to bring universes together! This is the time to create something grand, something that everybody wants to see.

Bring back Prime Kirk, Prime Spock, Picard and some of the others! Some would say that they should focus on the “new crew” but sorry, this is the 50th anniversary!

Doctor Who showed how great and successful it is to bring old and new together in a grand adventure.

So, yes they should definitely bring back Prime Kirk!

Some time ago I wrote a synopsis of a story which described how this could be done: By introducing the Borg.

The Borg invade the Alpha quadrant and fight against the Klingons. A Klingon agent on earth revives Khan to bring him to Qo’noS, as the Klingons know how powerful Khan is. But the Borg win nonetheless and assimilate the Klingons. From Khan they get all the information about the Narada incident and manage to open a wormhole to the Prime Universe to merge with the “Prime”-Borg and conquer both universes. The Enterprise tries to stop them as the other Federation ships battle the Borg fleet.
The Enterprise travels through the wormhole. They try to stop the Borg cube but they are beaten in battle as the Borg know every move and tactic Kirk tries. This is because the Borg managed to resurrect Prime Kirk and assimilated him.
The crew of the Enterprise seek help from Captain Picard and Captain Riker to stop the Borg in both universes. They manage to destroy the cube but a sphere with technology from the Prime universe travels back to alternate universe. With this technology, the Borg could easily defeat the Federation.
The crews of the Enterprises travel to the alternate universe and get help from Prime Spock to capture Borg-Kirk and free him from the assimilation. Together they battle the Borg and Prime-Kirk and Alternate-Krik have to face Borg-Khan in order to save both universes.
In the end they defeat the Borg. Picard and Riker return to the Prime Universe via the wormhole, the crew of Alternate-Kirk get the Enterprise-A and Prime-Kirk and Prime-Spock get an automated “old” 1701 to return to their home.
As the Alternate-Enterprise-A sets out for new adventures, Picard and co. arrive in the Prime Universe but the wormhole closes without Prime-Kirk and Prime-Spock emerging. They traveled elsewhere…

52. Surak1701 - January 28, 2014

Orci’s a true fan in the same way Manny Coto was, and we shouldn’t forget that. His philosophy has been clearly stated in that there is an element of reboot/remake to the JJ Verse Trek, which I for one generally enjoy, as long as it doesn’t become overwhelming.

It doesn’t always work – STID’s remake of the end of Wrath of Khan was bold but lacked a tenth of the dramatic power of the original, and had already been referenced strongly in ‘Nemesis’. But the fan in me finds different takes on TOS lore fascinating.

That being said, I think the new crew is ready for a primarily new and fresh adventure – admittedly, always difficult after hundreds of stories. Although I loved STID, there was a lack of suspense in favour of (often beautifully staged) action sequences, so it would be great to have some edge of your seat tension that didn’t necessarily involve Kirk avoiding asteroids.

53. Disinvited - January 28, 2014

JJ talks secrecy:

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=39945

”In an interview to promote his book project / faux artefact S, the director-writer-producer stressed that he’s still “not a 3D fanatic” but “understood why it was important to the studio” to release Star Trek Into Darkness in the format, and hinted at a more conventional promotional campaign than those he’s previously overseen for Cloverfield, Super 8 and that Star Trek sequel. “Star Wars is in every way a different animal,” he said. “It’s always been a more open, fan-engaged universe than I’ve been used to, so I’m sure there’ll be some sort of compromise.”

Abrams admitted that his experiences with you-know-who on Star Trek Into Darkness would guide his hand when it came to throwing out Star Wars curveballs. “We were trying to preserve the unexpected for the audience”, he explained of Benedict Cumberbatch’s big bad, “but it came across as if we were trying to be too clever”.

But, Abrams emphasised, don’t expect him to throw open the curtains – and the windows of his pre-production office are currently blacked out – and let everyone peek inside his treasure trove. “It feels to me like there’s a purity in not knowing every little thing.”” – EMPIRE | 28 January 2014 | Written by Phil de Semlyen

54. ME!! - January 28, 2014

I’d like to see them on their mission, but I’ve also heard they wanted to do the “logical” thing by chronicling the war in the third film. Perhaps they’ll be on the 5 year mission & are suddenly attacked by Abrams’ Blingons.

55. Robert - January 28, 2014

I’ve been working on a story that’s about exploration and where Kirk isn’t dark, but a Klingon captain shoots his mouth off and makes Kirk question his abilities because of a mistake he made.

56. Brinn - January 28, 2014

Mirror Universe with TOS looking tech.

57. ToldYouNoKhan - January 28, 2014

Based on this alone, it sounds like any hope of a Doctor Who level 50th anniversary tribute to the entire franchise is unlikely. A shame Star Trek isn’t in as good a pair of hands as Doctor Who.

58. Doug_Skywalker - January 28, 2014

How about for the opening scene for JJ’verse Trek 3, a love letter to the Deadly Years, featuring the Orignal cast, with young Bones and Scotty racing to save the day, followed by a bombastic TOS score for the opening credits/title? And then…dare I say it…AN ORIGINAL STORY? That would be most logical.

59. Navy - January 28, 2014

I’m not looking forward to anything further in the JJ universe.

I’m not looking forward to a darker Kirk that didn’t earn the chair through over a decade distinguished of service to starfleet.

JJ Trek is made for the instant glorification crowd, not the people who have worked for what they have.

60. Patrick Shirley - January 28, 2014

So all this time Star Trek was supposed to be only for lame, bitter old people.

61. Captain Sheridan - January 28, 2014

@21 – That they got off free is not a-typical- at the end of Star Trek 6, didn’t Uhura say something along the lines of “and they aren’t even going to press charges” during the discussion of how Starfleet officers were involved in the conspiracy?

62. LizardGirl - January 28, 2014

We need a trusted director to step up in JJ’s absence. And I would like more fan interaction this time around. The promotion of STID felt a little cold and impersonal, not to mention the cone of silence.

In comparison, Chris Nolan’s Interstellar already has a website up and running with plenty of content. We did not get that…

63. Zip - January 28, 2014

5. Captain Braxton – January 27, 2014
I just love it… you have my vote…

64. beans - January 28, 2014

“This is another great non-answer from Bob since he can’t really divulge anything”

It’s a non-answer because he couldn’t write a menu for a Chinese restaurant, let alone a decent Trek movie.
‘hey, my Trek movie made more money than those other ones, it has to be good!’, writes Bob Orci. There – just saved him the trouble of typing another idiotic response, and the embarrassment of being quoted on Cracked and laughed at for the utter goat that he is.

65. Marja - January 28, 2014

44 Ash, I agree with MOST of your points.

But I still love Spock and Uhura together. They don’t monopolize screen time, and it’s an AU element that is new for both characters.

Oh wait, in the view of some folks, that means the “Triumvirate” can’t happen. What nonsense.

I agree with your point about HBIC Marcus and Uhura, but why is their beauty relevant?

66. THX-1138 - January 28, 2014

The only inspiration I want from the Prime Universe in the next movie is if they plan on going back to it. Otherwise I think it’s ridiculous to claim that you went to the AU to free yourself from canon only to revisit it in the last two movies.

Just write an original story that can stand on it’sown without having to use the familiarity of the Prime Universe as a crutch. If you can’t do that then what was the point of all of this?

I’m no writing expert but how about the Enterprise crew goes and explores a “strange new world” and has many humorous and thought provoking interactions with it’s inhabitants. Maybe even an adventure with a bit of peril. No bad guys. No conspiracies. No Prime Spock. Just make a damned Star Trek movie!

67. Marja - January 28, 2014

51 Bumble This is the perfect time to bring crews together, to bring universes together! This is the time to create something grand, something that everybody wants to see.

Your “everybody” does not include me, I say this most emphatically. Nor does it include many people here, except Cygnus, Keeper, and a few others. And your plot ideas, like the ideas of John from Cincinnati above, are the stuff of fanfiction. I recommend you write ‘em up and post ‘em at fanfic.net. Needless to put them here …

BobO may be open to suggestions, but I doubt he wants a prescription. He has to write a script that will sell.

I hope he can devote more of his energy to it.

52 Surak 1701, well said, sir or madam.

57 ToldYouNo Khan [I like your screen name - how I wish they had listened], and it’s entirely too bad; Star Trek has had much more influence and given more inspiration around the world than Dr Who ever had. The 50th Anniversary deserves the full attention of a team of writers, producers and a great director. Too bad it appears Trek is getting short shrift yet again, compared with the Star Wars royal treatment.

58 Doug, Are you kidding? “Deadly Years” was one of the worst TOS eps ever.

59 Navy, I get your point, somewhat, but Spock has worked hard for all he has, and so has McCoy. It’s only Kirk who has suffered in comparison with TOS Kirk. I hope to see him come into maturity in the next movie. I’d say his giving up his life [however hokey his resurrection] counts as “hard work,” wouldn’t you? [And for the record, I'm an "original fan" which puts my age at fairly well north of age 40.]

68. Marja - January 28, 2014

LizardGirl, in fairness, we did have this here site, but there was not much info forthcoming, was there.

Here’s hoping US publicity for Trek3 far eclipses US publicity for STID. And here’ hoping they open worldwide on the same day, for frikksake. THAT would be an event.

They blew STID before it ever opened, simply with the awful, poor publicity. What there was was deceptive, copycat [of The Dark Knight Rises] at worst and terribly understated at its best.

69. LizardGirl - January 28, 2014

@Marja

Agreed!

70. TUP - January 28, 2014

Im optimistic. I think Bob Orci is smart enough to learn from his mistakes. I only hope he’s grounded enough to realise what were mistakes,.

The joy of the first movie as far as harmonizing with canon was the little things. STID went too far with it. I say that as someone who wanted to see Khan and as someone who got chills (in a good way) watching the Kirk death scene.

The issue with the canon is the the writers pick and choose what they want to use and when they want to violate it. And when they violate it, they shrug and say “its a new timeline”. If you dont respect the canon you cant expect the fans to appreciate when the times when you do.

If I had my way, the 50th anniversary film would be a universe-busting, far-reaching massive adventure “fixing” the timeline with Nimoy, Shatner, Picard etc in varying degrees of supporting roles.

But I suspect that wont happen. So I hope its an adventure film with lots of human drama.

71. martin - January 28, 2014

Here is a crazy idea for the next film.

In this alternate timeline with the Narada having traces of Borg technology, section 31 must be experimenting with nano technology and installing parts on the uss vengeance.

what if section 31 and khan were the creators of the Borg before into darkness and have them hidden somewhere or sent them…………..
………..erm back in time if that’s even possible.

then the Borg come to find there creators in the present 23rd century, while kirk and the enterprise is in deep space exploring strange new worlds comes across a mysterious cybernetic race called the Borg.

after been at war with the Klingons, kirk has problems with his identity with khans blood transfusion.

Requests Starfleet to send khan for medical reasons.

Meanwhile

Q/Trelane arrive to anoy kirk and his crew about whats coming.

kirk knows nothing about the borg or who created them but my guess is they will open a rift to the prime timeline.

72. MJenn - January 28, 2014

just tell a good story, thats all

73. Doug_Skywalker - January 28, 2014

68. Marja – I agree, it’s lame. BUT, the idea of being able to get the original cast back together could be neat.

Otherwise, yeah, what was I thinking…

74. Ahmed - January 28, 2014

Nimoy looks so fragile, wish him all the best.

=============================

Star Trek legend Leonard Nimoy, 82, gets whisked through airport in a wheelchair in New York

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2547223/Star-Trek-legend-Leonard-Nimoy-82-gets-whisked-airport-wheelchair-New-York.html

75. Phil - January 28, 2014

What is it with people, who seem to go through spasms here when suggesting that all the next movie needs in it is every living Trek veteran, and maybe a few dead ones. This cast has another movie under contract, stop trying to resurrect the dead.

76. Phil - January 28, 2014

@36.I am? All I’m doing is asking questions of material presented on screen. If it’s on screen, it’s canon, right?

It could very well be that Carol Marcus is nothing more the a 23rd century Victoria’s Secret model. Asking a few pointed questions about on screen material would seem to be a bit more interesting then the speculation that the next movie with Shatner/Picard/Borg/Guardian/Pine/Nimoy/Romulans/Gorn/Q/Nexus/Khan/Lester/Horta/Janeway/NOMAD/etc/etc/etc is just going to be the greatest thing ever….

77. Buzz Cagney - January 28, 2014

Its just got to be better- much, much better- than Into Darkness. Or to be more accurate it has to be more consistently better. Darkness had much to commend and yet it just fails to hang convincingly together.
I think the whole Khan as an after thought thing shows.
So characterisations in Darkness were good- its very much the writers strength. As is the humour. However, more work and effort needs to go into a good, solid original Boldy Going story.
Get that part right from the off and the rest will flow.
Good luck to the team.

78. Corylea - January 28, 2014

I have a love/hate relationship with the reboot movies. I love it that the reboots have brought attention back to Star Trek and garnered a whole new generation of fans, and I love it that there’s new Trek being made now. I hate, though, what’s been done to the characters. I hate how they’ve reduced Kirk from hero to petulant child and Spock from coolly logical alien to moody, pointy-eared human. I also think destroying Vulcan was a big mistake.

I’d love to see the third reboot movie give us a good story where the characters are true to themselves and not used as Generic Action Heroes. Both Kirk and Spock were bigger and more interesting than that in TOS, but at least action hero is a reasonable fit for Kirk; turning Spock into a Generic Action Hero is SUCH a waste! For Spock, think tricorders, mind melds, Vulcan mysticism, and neck pinches, not guns. :-)

My favorite TOS episodes were character-building episodes like “Amok Time” and “Journey to Babel;” if Orci wants to mine old TOS episodes for inspiration, I’d love to see him start there.

And remember that great Trek doesn’t have to have a villain; episodes like “The City on the Edge of Forever” and “The Devil in the Dark” didn’t have villains, and they were some of the best Trek out there.

79. Daoud The Sinfonian - January 28, 2014

We can presume Starfleet’s militarization began with the original Narada incursion/Kelvin incident in 2233. So, I’d expect there would be large light ships (Enterprise) being built at the same time to disguise the construction of larger dark ships (Vengeance) between 2233 and 2258. Indeed, in the very real US Navy, down at Bath Iron Works they’re building more Arleigh Burke-class destroyers (‘light’ destroyers) at the same time new Zumwalt-class (stealthy ‘dark’ destroyers) are being built.
.
Markus and others might have actually found Botany Bay long before 2258. It could have been found in a search for Narada after the Kelvin incident. They might have kept it in cold storage (pun intended) for a few years before Markus thawed out Khan. The universe didn’t change in one year, it’s been altered since 2233. 26 years is a lot of time for people to shift, events to alter, suspicions to build.
.
Orci could very well tie up loose ends left by the Ka/Os (chaos) from letting Linedlof muck up Into Darkness, and bring home that Kirk realizes the Road Out of Darkness is not a shining path, but more like chutes and ladders. He should go a few shades darker–have we ever learned what became of Winona~!?!? Did a Klingon attack at Axanar kill her??? Can Garth get worked into the story… and be the one to finally rescue Kirk from the insanity of darkness? A Good Garth? I certainly lobbied for Garth before STID to be the ‘villain’ and lost, so I’m going to put it out there…. let Garth be the one to sacrifice and rescue Kirk in “Star Trek Out of Darkness”.

80. DaveCologne - January 28, 2014

It would be nice to see something like ST 1 (1979) or ST 4, but please in space, not in earth. We’ve seen a lot of earth in the last 2 movies. It would be nice somewhere out in space, where no one has gone before. Something mystical. V’Ger is still out there and maybe encountered the borg homeworld.
Or the planet killer, which was continued in an excellent novel by Peter David. The Planet killer was once sent out to destroy the borg…

Back to that what Pine saied… Who knows, maybe the abramsverse IS the mirror universe and turns dark after there encounters. That wouldn’t be consistant with the mirror story in ENT, but can we be sure, that Spock Prime went back from the prime universe??? Maybe it already way the mirror universe and Romulus was never destroyed?
Or Spock went back in time and switched to the mirror universe, like the USS-Defiant made it in the ENT mirror episode?
That could also explain that the abramsverse is so advanced (they got TOS-technology in the ENT mirror episde, so the TOS era in that universe becomes more advanced…)
Just my 2 cents…

81. Anthony Thompson - January 28, 2014

32. MJ – The Grand Return

Are you implying that STID wasn’t epic??? In fact, it was much more sweeping than 09. Tally up the numbers (which you’re good at) of planets visited, ships, etc. and you’ll see that STID beat ’09 by a country mile in it’s epic scope.

82. Bryan With Pointy Nacelles and a Large Disk - January 28, 2014

For the next movie, the 50th anniversary, it should truly be something special. Manage to get Shatner, Nimoy, Takei, Nichols, and Koeing into it by having them bookend the movie. Say perhaps then reunite for a Scotty or McCoy funeral/memorial. Have them reminisce something from established canon from TOS, and have the new cast act out their musings. I know sounds too simplistic and uncomplicated, but a simple heartfelt and well acted out story would tug at ones heartstrings.
Could have great artistic license by tying several TOS threads together to make a logical and relevant story.

83. Bryan With Pointy Nacelles and a Large Disk - January 28, 2014

Bravo #78 Corylea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

84. Anthony Thompson - January 28, 2014

82. Bryan

Ain’t going to happen (and it shouldn’t). You and the other folks here who want to be drenched in nostalgia remind me of the pathetic people who only listen to oldies radio. And hear the same songs over and over and over again. That’s death before dying.

Most people want fresh and exciting stories led by the new cast. I enjoyed Nimoy in ’09. His cameo in STID was unnecessary and distracting. That should be the final appearance by any TOS cast member.

85. Phil - January 28, 2014

@82. Nope. Sound more like a SyFy movie of the week to me. Definitely not something I’m going to cough up 15 bucks to see. Nimoy was a throwaway scene in STID – none of the original cast should be any were near any future productions. They are free to relive their glory days on fan productions, if they choose.

86. crazydaystrom - January 28, 2014

I just read-
According to Variety, Marvel is so impressed with Captain America: The Winter Soldier that the studio wants directors Anthony and Joe Russo to helm the third installment which hasn’t been greenlit yet. Strong results from recent Winter Soldier test screenings also play a role in the sibling directors returning. Even though negotiations will not begin until after the “political thriller” hits theaters in a couple months, April 4th, Marvel and the Russos “are already putting together an outline of what the third film’s story arc would look like,” notes Variety.”

God! If only Paramount would take a similar positive approach to making Treks!

87. Jack - January 28, 2014

The best advice ever: don’t listen to us on this site.

Knowing that’ll never happen because you’re compelled to be loved by strangers here — tell a good story that puts characters above plot somersaults; no more super-weapons (note that the superweapon was the problem with the original Trek II scripts… until they came up with the idea of a terraforming device).

Forget about light or dark, tell a good story about people (Captain Phillips, Gravity).

And ditch the truther nonsense (yes, I know, I’m one of the sheeple) — broad hints at conspiracies don’t make for decent movies. Convoluted doesn’t automatically equal clever.

If you want to say things about politics, then make a film that’s actually political and not nonsense buttressed by a couple of telling-the-obvious speeches.

A good Trek political thriller is certainly possible, and it’s time is overdue, but STID wasn’t it.

This will never happen — but get Paul Greengrass involved.

Heck, even Kenneth Branagh — Paul Ryan was actually a good, solid thriller (the biggest complaints seems to be that it’s all-around fine but not spectacular). with room for plenty of political/ social messages. Although Alan Taylor’s Thor sequel was a lot better than Branagh’s first.

88. Ahmed - January 28, 2014

@87. Jack

“Heck, even Kenneth Branagh — Paul Ryan was actually a good, solid thriller”

It is “Jack Ryan”, Jack :)

89. BRT - January 28, 2014

Show us that you can write something original guys.

90. Spockchick - January 28, 2014

For me as a kid, Starfleet were explorers, the David Attenborough of Sci-Fi. We haven’t seen much of that, only enemies and punch-ups. I am so sick of fist-fights in movies where the outcome is predicted from second one of the film.

91. dmduncan - January 28, 2014

87. Jack – January 28, 2014

Repeating the name somebody calls you doesn’t make you enlightened any more than calling you that name wakes you up. Been a rough couple of years for coincidence theorists, hasn’t it?

92. Jeff C. - January 28, 2014

51. I like your thoughts Admiral. It would be a horrible shame to not do something on the 50th anniversary of the best tv/movie franchise ever that would honor the past and the present. Bringing the prime universe back in some way would be epic! The Borg idea would work well. There are so many ways good, inventive writing could bring so much different Trek together and that could be great fun! I would love to see it.

93. K-7 - January 28, 2014

All,

Ahmed indirectly suggested that this discussion below should be moved to this new thread…so here it is, so that you can all get caught up….

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
1043. Ahmed – January 28, 2014
@ Dave H & RDR,

“And I think that Ahmed’s rather obvious absence here to defend that bonehead remark speaks volumes. I mean, when has Ahmed ever not defended his viewpoint before? Answer: never.”

Actually, I moved to the new thread “JJ’verse news bites”. You are all welcome of course to continue posting in this old thread.

As for ST09, I stand by what I said. The movie was good but not epic in any meaningful way. The origin story was fresh, Pike was amazing & the new cast did a wonderful job. Nero on the other hand was weak & one dimensional.

You can continue debating but I’m not really interested in having long useless discussions with you guys again. After all, you guys consider the new Trek movies EPIC & MASTERPIECE & you know what, that is fine.

1044. Red Shirt Diaries – January 28, 2014
#1043

Huh? I always thought that you considered Star Trek 2009 as a great movie? You use to maintain here that STID was a failure but that Trek 2009 was great.

Why the sudden change of opinion?

1045. Red Shirt Diaries – January 28, 2014
Ahmed, do you recall your post below from May 2012, where you equated Star Trek 2009 to The Matrix and Inception — two “epic” sf movies.

?????

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1994. Ahmed – May 5, 2012
@1990.dmduncan – May

Totally agree with you, The Avengers was so much fun that I’m going to see it again. I usually don’t watch a movie twice in theater, except for movies like Star Trek, The Matrix and Inception; The Avengers is one of these movies that worth a second viewing

1046. MJ – January 28, 2014
Red Shirt,

Yea, I recall many similar emails from Ahmed saying very glowing things to Bob and others here about Star Trek 2009.

Not sure why he’s trying to rewrite his own history here, but perhaps he been going negative so long on STID, that he’s now had a change of opinion about Trek 2009.

But Ahmed definitely used to think that Star Trek 2009 was epic — as he himself ranked it up there with The Matrix and Inception, as that old post clearly shows.

1047. Dave H – January 28, 2014
@Red Shirt
@MJ

Thanks for the confirmation, guys. I knew I wasn’t imagining that Ahmed once though very highly of Trek 2009.

94. Navy - January 28, 2014

@67. Marja

If a person ignores the circumstances surrounding Kirks death, sacrificing ones life for another, or a group of people doesn’t make you a good leader, but it does make you a hero.

In TWOK, Kirk admitted he did nothing special and got caught with his britches down. Essentially admitting he was no longer as efficient of a Captain as he once was.

JJ-Kirk simply does not have the life experience to justify being Captain of the Flagship.

JJ-Kirk seems to jump to the extremes without working his way up. Prime Kirk, wouldn’t grab the bull by the horns until he had exhausted all his other options or the situation dictated that response.

JJ-Kirk may have excelled on aptitude tests, but given his introduction I’m doubting he had much time to be a walking stack of books.

I can’t bring myself to watch either JJ StarTrek movie again, sometimes I fire it up, get 10 minutes into it and decide to watch one of the series instead.

I no longer regret supporting the JJ movies, because at least it’s StarTrek something, even if it isn’t what I want to see.

Bob if you’re reading this, please base the next movie on MacGyver, season one, episode eight “Hellfire”

No bad guys, no shooting. Just a tough disaster caused by poor choices. My wife pointed out Nana Vistor is in this episode, I didn’t even notice! Some fan I am.

95. K-7 - January 28, 2014

@86

“According to Variety, Marvel is so impressed with Captain America: The Winter Soldier that the studio wants directors Anthony and Joe Russo to helm the third installment which hasn’t been greenlit yet. Strong results from recent Winter Soldier test screenings also play a role in the sibling directors returning.”

That’s interesting, because what I have seen so far leads me to believe that they have largely lifted the story from Winter Solider from Star Trek Into Darkness. Just watch the trailer — you get the same sort of Shield corruption just like Starfleet, the same kind of standing up for moral principals over the generals, and nearly the exact same scene at the end of a huge ship crashing into the bay by a major city.

“God! If only Paramount would take a similar positive approach to making Treks!”

LOL — its the same story, as I just showed above. That’s what Paramount already gave you in STID, and you didn’t like it.

Make up your mind???

96. K-7 - January 28, 2014

“Bob if you’re reading this, please base the next movie on MacGyver, season one, episode eight.”

Or Three’s Company, Season III, episode 11?

wtf?

LOL

97. Navy - January 28, 2014

@K-7

My theory is that even if they hyper charge that episode, there still are no villains so the story should come out good!

98. Phil - January 28, 2014

Gilligan’s Island, season 2, episode 9

99. Martin - January 28, 2014

I’m imagining the last scene for Leonard nimoy as Spock prime in the next film, stepping on the transporter on the enterprise as the crew watch him leave for the prime universe. “Farewell live long and prosper and good luck” I’m sure it will bring a tear to your eye.

100. Navy - January 28, 2014

Come on guys, at least I gave a one sentence synopsis of the episode!

101. Mike Barnett - January 28, 2014

Police Squad Episode 4.
Chris Pine can pull off the sequence right after the opening credits. See the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_and_Remorse_(The_Guilty_Alibi)

102. Blue Thunder - January 28, 2014

The best way to make a successful film out of the third and final Star Trek prequel/reboot is to go back to what made Star trek so successful in the first place.

The addressing of the socio-political issues of the times that mankind is currently living in. The usage of such an allegory or commentary was successfully used before. It can be done again.

103. Papillon - January 28, 2014

@39 – Your last suggestion on that list sounds a bit far-fetched. Besides Warner Bros owns the rights to that horror film.

104. Vultan - January 28, 2014

Some awful news a friend in the UK just shared with me. Apparently Leonard Nimoy has been spotted in a wheelchair looking very frail.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/star-trek-legend-leonard-nimoy-3069719

Thoughts and prayers for a speedy recovery, Mr. Nimoy.

105. tribblesoup - January 28, 2014

I think this would be an excellent time to move star trek back on television.

106. Vultan - January 28, 2014

Hopefully though it’s just some stupid tabloid story and Nimoy is okay. Hopefully….

107. SoonerDave - January 28, 2014

@104 US tabloid reported the same thing, fuzzy picture, the works. He routinely tweets about photography shows, I believe, so I have a tough time thinking he’s in perilous condition.

108. Garak's Pride - January 28, 2014

#93

That is all a good reminder why we need to remember what we say on these boards. I too, remember Ahmed being very positive about ST-2009. And to see that Ahmed equated ST-2009 with Inception and The Matrix…well, of course that means at that time he thought it was of the same sort of epic nature as those two movies. Yes, he’s being inconsistent now with his earlier posts on this.

#95

Agreed. The Winter Soldier trailer looks a heck of a lot like STID. Hopefully that is accidental, but it certainly looks strangely similar.

109. DiscoSpock - January 28, 2014

Garak,

Yea, when you put a movie in the same sentence like that as The Matrix and Inception, then obviously you are talking about movies that you consider as “EPIC.”

110. crazydaystrom - January 28, 2014

95. K-7
LOL……Make up your mind???

I could write a half a page or more re: your post # 95, K7. But I’ll only say – LOL indeed! My mind IS made up. About quite a few things, in fact.

111. DiscoSpock - January 28, 2014

Definition of EPIC:

“extending beyond the usual or ordinary especially in size or scope.”

Come on, Ahmed, this fits ST-2009 like a glove. STID, not so much though.

112. Garak's Pride - January 28, 2014

Re: Crazydaystrom

Guy, have you actually looked at the Winter Solider trailer? It does looks A LOT like Into Darkness, my friend. Go view it.

113. Jeff C. - January 28, 2014

111. “Epic” to me is the first Star Wars trilogy, Gone with the Wind (not that it is my cup of tea), Lord of the Rings trilogy, first Superman movie, Godfather…those would be some examples that quickly come to me. TWOK was epic, but as huge of a Trek as I am I can’t say any other Trek movies would fall in to that category…although one could make an argument for Undiscovered Country, too.

114. JoCat - January 28, 2014

I really liked Star Trek 2009 and Into Darkness was also really good. All the actors on it were phenomenal. There are ways both movies could have been better. I do recommend that if the Klingons or Romulans come back that they look similar to what the Star Trek fans remember. That would help to keep the new movies looking like Star Trek. But I actually love the idea of the alternate universe because that means they have the freedom to create completely brand new stories that don’t affect the prime universe Star Trek as we know it. They are giving Star Trek a whole new outlet. I would like the next movie to be not quite so dark and more hopeful. And for them to do some serious outer space exploration. No telling what new alien or aliens that they might come across. Do they find a new friend or a new foe? Or what strange new worlds they might find. I see Mr. Orci, mentioned the Voyage Home movie which is my favorite, but perhaps this new crew should be faced with with the challenge of saving a newly found alien world from extinction (and I don’t mean from an exploding volcano since that already happened).

115. DiscoSpock - January 28, 2014

Jeff C,

Well I guess we have different views on what epic means then. To me, “epic movie” and “great movie” are not necessarily the same thing. For Star Trek, I would say TMP and Trek 2009 are the only truly “epic movies”. However, I would not classify TMP as a “great movie”…but epic…yes!

WOK is a “great movie.” I think it is “borderline epic,” — it’s close, but it is not as big in scope and story as the truly epic TMP and ST-2009. Again, definitionally, let’s not confuse “great” with “epic” here.

You also kind of lost me when you threw in TUC. I find that movie to be overrated, and it has not aged well. TUC is neither epic or great in my book.

Finally, Ahmed mentioned ST-2009 in the context of two movies that are both epic and great — The Matrix and Inception.

116. Vultan - January 28, 2014

Epic? An overused word. It’s nearly lost all meaning. When everything will be epic, nothing will be.

Just tell a good story.

117. DiscoSpock - January 28, 2014

Here’s another example of the difference — Transformers was an epic movie, but it wasn’t a great movie.

Waterworld….same deal

See the difference?

118. DiscoSpock - January 28, 2014

@115. Agreed, as my attempt at re-educating people on what it really means shows here.

119. Marja - January 28, 2014

74 Ahmed, Nimoy doesn’t look frail. Maybe just tired from a presumably 8 – 10 hour day in airports and on planes. Man, if I were 82, I’d take a flippin’ ride on a wheelchair too :-)

77 Buzz Cagney, So characterisations in Darkness were good- its very much the writers strength. As is the humour. However, more work and effort needs to go into a good, solid original Boldy Going story.

I agree with you! As Corylea says, “Journey to Babel” and “Amok Time” were excellent, as were “City on the Edge…” and “Devil in the Dark.” If the writers want to switch up old episodes, those would be some great ones.

I’d prefer no operatic villains, and less punching and kicking please. Oh yeah, and destroying Earth’s cities? Been there, done that, in just about every summer blockbuster this year. Cripes I’m tired!

120. MJ - January 28, 2014

@115

“Finally, Ahmed mentioned ST-2009 in the context of two movies that are both epic and great — The Matrix and Inception.”

Yea, and that is exactly why so many of us here are having problems with Ahmed’s “all-of-a-sudden” determination that ST-2009 wasn’t as great as he was saying back in 2011 and 2012 right here on these boards.

Some of us here remember what many of us said back then, and it’s all a written record here as well. I clearly recall numerous times when Ahmed was very jazzed with ST-2009.

I get that people change their mind over time. But just be direct and honest with us when you change your mind. No need to put up false pretenses.

121. Marja - January 28, 2014

Navy, AUKirk showed his leadership ability when he turned over command of the ship to Spock. Humility and recognition of talent are two of the many qualities of a good leader. He’s getting there.

122. Red Shirt Diaries - January 28, 2014

@MJ

Yes, and I remember several times last summer when Ahmed vehemently defended his criticisms of STID by pointing out what a great movie ST-2009 was. He used that reasoning to defend his position that he was being fair in assessing both movies.

Was that all a facade? A debate trick, perhaps?

123. Jeff C. - January 28, 2014

115. “Epic” is definitely subjective. Sometimes labeling a movie epic to me is defined by when the film was made and how it compared. I have thought TUC could be considered epic because of that. It stood out in it’s time and I still love it. TMP was so boring that if it was epic I couldn’t stay conscious long enough to realize it. I am still amazed it didn’t bury the franchise. Lol

124. Marja - January 28, 2014

102 blue thunder STID explored sociopolitics, whatever you might think of how it hung together, it showed:

the futility of revenge [Kirk, Khan]
the futile pursuit of military supremacy [Adm Marcus]
the loss of too many lives in trying to assuage paranoia [Marcus again]
the high cost of rage [Khan vs. citizens of San Fran]
openin’ a can a’ whoopass makes ogres of us all [Spock vs. Khan]
… among other things.

125. somethoughts - January 28, 2014

They should make a movie based on that 1990s pc game StarControl 2, now that was a epic video game.

Now that we have seen angry man from future and angry man from past in the first 2 star trek films, why noy a angry man from the present lol jking

Ok seriously, here is my pitch;
(due to narrada incursion)
The milky way is being absorbed by another larger galaxy, the resulting gravatational effects throw star systems closer and further apart resulting in a mixture of alpha, beta, delta quadrants. As a result the borg, klingons, and different federation planets are being affected. The Enterprise and fleets are sent out to survey.

There are new planets, suns, alien races from the new absoring galaxy that is ruled by a supreme space farring race that challenges kirk and crew in completing a spacial puzzle quest that inlvoves exploring strange new worlds to boldy go where no one has gone before…

126. somethoughts - January 28, 2014

#124

Nice, I also like how they tied in suicide bombings, black ops, moral play of saving life and sacrifice to save lives, ie saving spock in volcano and kirk dyong to save enterprise. The cost of freedom and sacrafice, play on admiral marcus and his goal of security at cost of morals and ethics.

127. Jeff C. - January 28, 2014

I like the idea of tieing something Shakespearian into the next movie. That has always worked well for Trek in the past. In TUC and “Conscience of the King” William’s influence added allot to the movie.

128. somethoughts - January 28, 2014

#127

Yeah, I liked how that gave the chancellor and klingons in tuc a certain gravitas. Nice quotes and acting.

129. Dave H - January 28, 2014

I like Ahmed. But I certainly think he owes us all an explanation.

——————————————————————–
122. Red Shirt Diaries – January 28, 2014
@MJ

Yes, and I remember several times last summer when Ahmed vehemently defended his criticisms of STID by pointing out what a great movie ST-2009 was. He used that reasoning to defend his position that he was being fair in assessing both movies.

Was that all a facade? A debate trick, perhaps?

130. Jeff C. - January 28, 2014

Plus, not much is ever said about her, but the daughter of Kodos was an excellent villain in “Conscience of the King”.

131. Marja - January 28, 2014

71 Martin, You’re right! Those are crazy ideas!

90 Spockchick, For me as a kid, Starfleet were explorers, the David Attenborough of Sci-Fi. We haven’t seen much of that, only enemies and punch-ups. I am so sick of fist-fights in movies where the outcome is predicted from second one of the film.
SECONDED.

127 JeffC., 128 somethoughts, I love a little Shakespeare in Star Trek, but Meyer really went overboard with it in STTUC. wayyyy overboard.

132. somethoughts - January 28, 2014

#129

Possible there are more than one person posting as ahmed.

133. Diskhanbobulated - January 28, 2014

The one and ONLY “epic” Trek film was the very first one. If you saw it in the theater in 1979, after waiting 10 years and reading sporadic Starlog updates by Bjo Trimble and David Gerrold, you know this to be true.

134. Ahmed - January 28, 2014

@ 93. K-7 – January 28, 2014

“All,

Ahmed indirectly suggested that this discussion below should be moved to this new thread…so here it is, so that you can all get caught up….”

OK, you are officially a moron.

I said in my last post

“You can continue debating but I’m not really interested in having long useless discussions with you guys again. After all, you guys consider the new Trek movies EPIC & MASTERPIECE & you know what, that is fine.”

So, you & the rest of your buddies can continue your “discussions” but I’m not interested in replying to you or any of your group.

Have fun among yourself.

135. Ahmed - January 28, 2014

@ 116. Vultan – January 28, 2014

“Epic? An overused word. It’s nearly lost all meaning. When everything will be epic, nothing will be.

Just tell a good story.”

Exactly! We need a movie with coherent plot that feel like a Star Trek movie, not a Star Wars one. Enough with the relentless action & the solar system. Go beyond & actually explorer something strange & new. Hope that is not too much to ask for the 50th anniversary.

136. Dave H - January 28, 2014

#134

That is rather insulting, as well as a cop-out, Ahmed. I am on the record as saying that STID is not a great movie. I have NEVER claimed that it is epic. If anything, it is an epic fail.

You are trying to find a convenient way here to dismiss your bonehead statement that ST-2009 is not epic, after years of selling all of us that “I love ST-2009, but STID stinks.”

You are not fooling anyone. You said one thing 2 years ago on ST-2009, and you are singing quite a different tune on ST-2009 here now in 2014. You should own up to it.

137. Marja - January 28, 2014

130 JeffC, Lenore Karidian was a great character! “Conscience of the King” is one of my top ten TOS episodes.

138. DiscoSpock - January 28, 2014

More of Ahmed’s “I Love Trek 2009’s Greatest Hits”:

=======================================
85. Ahmed – June 19, 2012
i was skeptical at first back in 2006/2007 when I heard about the reboot but after the movie came out, I was more than happy with the result.

=======================================
51. Ahmed – November 8, 2012
I enjoyed most of JJ early works from the amazing “Lost” to “Mission Impossible III” & “Star Trek”.

=======================================
37. Ahmed – February 1, 2012
I watched Star Trek (2009) again last night, it was still amazing & fresh. I can’t wait to see this group back again in a much bigger & better movie.

139. Dave H - January 28, 2014

“I watched Star Trek (2009) again last night, it was still amazing & fresh. I can’t wait to see this group back again in a much bigger & better movie.”
— Ahmed, 1 Feb 2012

Wow, that is the “smoking gun” here for me. “Amazing and fresh,” on top of his other 2012 comments equating ST-2009 to Inception and The Matrix.

Yes, I don’t care if the guy dismisses or ignores me/us or not, it’s conclusive now — Ahmed in 2012 then thought that ST-2012 was “EPIC.”

This is why you shouldn’t try to claim a position that is contrary to your historical record here — people do in fact pay attention and hold you accountable to past statements you have made here.

140. DiscoSpock - January 28, 2014

Dave,

More from Ahmed’s past love of Trek 2009:

====================================
173. Ahmed – June 16, 2012
Watching “Star Trek” on ShowCase right now here in Canada. Didn’t realize how much I missed the movie, the soundtrack is amazing.
Star Trek 12, please come fast

141. Dave H - January 28, 2014

#140

WOW !!!!!

142. marty - January 28, 2014

boborci, i have a great storyline for trek 13. it would restore the timeline, but also not throw away the last 2 films. it would use a few points from previous trek plots(but let’s be honest, there’s not many plots left), but nothing would be a ripoff as much as the last 2 films have been to previous trek stuff.. but instead there would be a lot of things that paid homage in it. i would like for this story to at least have someone’s eyes other than mine see it. someone that appreciates star trek.. and someone who won’t have to seen any previous star trek stuff before, but also huge easter eggs for those that have.

just correct the timeline. that’s the biggest wish out of every star trek fan. you’ve had your fun, now do us a favor and return our timeline so that someone else can play with it.

143. MJ - January 28, 2014

Ahmed, my friend,

No need to respond at all here, dude. Your posts from 2012 that Disco Spock has dug up serve as all the response from you that is required. Your own words are quite enough. ;-)

Seriously though, why not just admit that you changed your mind? What’s the harm with a little honesty here?

144. Daniel - January 28, 2014

142. Marty. There is no timeline to “correct.” The new movies take place in an alternate universe that was created when Nero went back in time.

Now if you want to next move to take place in the original timeline, that would be fine with me. Personally I don’t see the need.

I’m in favor or an original story that does not reference the original timeline at all, or at least very little. I’d like to get the Enterprise in deep, deep space where they are cut off from the rest of humanity/the Federation and have to solve a sticky problem for themselves.

How about sending them into the center of our galaxy to find out what is really there? We suspect there are some massive back holes there (that would look great on screen) and just for fun we could have some aliens using those black holes for their nefarious purposes.

145. Ahmed - January 28, 2014

@143. MJ

MJ, my friend,

“No need to respond at all here, dude. Your posts from 2012 that Disco Spock has dug up serve as all the response from you that is required. Your own words are quite enough. ;-)”

Indeed. Thanks to DiscoSpock hard work on this “Federal Case” , it is clear that I enjoyed ST09 & that I thought & still think it was “amazing & fresh”. However, I didn’t say it was an EPIC movie.

I’m sure that you like lot of movies but you don’t consider them all EPIC, right ?

That is my only & last response about the “EPICNESS” OF STAR TREK 2009.

146. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2014

WOW!!!! Turns out that as recently as Feb. 2012 Ahmed liked ST09 a lot, and even ranked it alongside “The Matrix” and “Inception”.

Now he’s flip-flopped like a desperate politician seeking re-election.

Ahmed, you really need to address why you suddenly and abruptly did a 180 on your own opinion of ST09.

147. Cygnus-X1 - January 28, 2014

87. Jack – January 28, 2014

Hear, hear.

148. MJ - January 28, 2014

@145

Hmm, you said, “amazing movie” and held it up with Inception and The Matrix, but OK, I will take you at your word now that you currently don’t think it’s epic.

I can’t help think though that your opinion on Trek 2009 has been evolving, and that if I had asked you 3 years ago if Trek 2009 was epic, that I would have got a “yes” from you.

Again, I’ll take you at your word, but I think you may be being a bit dishonest with yourself if you cannot see that you did like Trek 2009 more several years ago than you like it today?

149. MJ - January 28, 2014

DM Duncan,

I don’t think you are big on Nolan, but you will like this:

“Earlier today, Paramount Pictures vice chairman Rob Moore added a caveat to the studio’s mandate (via LA Times), saying, “Although we anticipate the majority of the studio’s future releases to be executed in digital formats across the U.S., select exceptions will be made.” The studio went on to confirm that Interstellar will indeed be one such exception. This isn’t an altogether surprising move, as Nolan is an avid proponent of film projection and personally worked to convert a number of IMAX theaters across the U.S. from digital to film projection in order to display The Dark Knight Rises to his preferred specifications. Interstellar is again being filmed using IMAX cameras, so expect the same presentation to follow later this year when the pic opens on November 7th.”

150. MJ - January 28, 2014

@87

“Heck, even Kenneth Branagh — Paul Ryan was actually a good, solid thriller (the biggest complaints seems to be that it’s all-around fine but not spectacular). with room for plenty of political/ social messages. Although Alan Taylor’s Thor sequel was a lot better than Branagh’s first.”

Jack, I have to disagree with you on this one. I finally saw it on Monday night. The movie was OK, but it didn’t even come close to matching the intensity of the Ben Afllack Clancy movie, let along the Ford/Baldwin classics. It was unforgivably pedestrian — any single episode of Homeland is much better.

151. Cygnus-X1 - January 28, 2014

93. K-7 – January 28, 2014

Huh? I always thought that you considered Star Trek 2009 as a great movie? You use to maintain here that STID was a failure but that Trek 2009 was great. Why the sudden change of opinion?

There’s no mystery there. ST09 does not hold up well over time.

It was a lot more enjoyable enjoyable on the big screen, after a 5 year Trek drought, with almost everything about it being new.

But, the novelty has worn off over time. ST09, like STID, was a shiny bauble, very visually titillating with non-stop action, but underneath it all is not much substance. And all of the fantastical devices and events in the movie make it feel more like a comic book than like science fiction.

This has all been said before many times. Also, the movie’s villain is weakly motivated, and his story was not very compelling.

STID suffered from all of the ailments of ST09, with additional and exacerbated infirmities relating to plot holes, plot devices, the way the characters were written, and, of course, the infamous TWOK rip-offs (which, granted, some people enjoyed or didn’t mind, but many people found loathsome).

152. MJ - January 28, 2014

@151

Oh god, not that broken record from you again. We get your opinion, dude, OK? I got it well before the 19th time you repeated it here just now.

:-(

These aren’t the droids you’re looking for..move along…

153. Marja - January 28, 2014

142 Marty just correct the timeline. that’s the biggest wish out of every star trek fan.

Oh, so you speak for all of us? Or am I not a Trek fan?

I like the AU and want it to stay the AU b/c I am happy with it. It’s NEW. No need to Trek where Trek has been before

I love what went before, TOS, TNG, DS9, ENT …. they are what they are and the movies up till 2009 are what they are, all fine.

2009 gave us a new Trek universe to play in. And I hope the writers / producers / director take advantage of that and don’t pay so much “homage” in the next film. Khan homage just didn’t work in STiD.

154. Marja - January 28, 2014

150 MJ, I saw “Shadow Recruit” and liked it. It wasn’t a big huge SFX movie, but was suspenseful and well-acted [esp by Pine]. I felt it stayed true to the characters of Jack and Ann [at least as I had seen them in the Harrison Ford Jack Ryan movies]. The techno-worship of Clancy was missing, but that’s not super high on my list of things in movies.

[Though there was a memorable scene of satellite footage of a terrorist camp in "Clear and Present Danger" that I recall quite well. Mainly b/c of the reaction shots of Ryan. Could be cos I liked seeing Ford over and over - I think I saw that one about 5 times.]

I’ll have to check out that Affleck movie. He’s a likeable actor and I can’t recommend his performance in “Hollywoodland” highly enough.

155. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2014

#151.

“There’s no mystery there. ST09 does not hold up well over time.

It was a lot more enjoyable enjoyable on the big screen, after a 5 year Trek drought, with almost everything about it being new.

But, the novelty has worn off over time. ST09, like STID, was a shiny bauble, very visually titillating with non-stop action, but underneath it all is not much substance. And all of the fantastical devices and events in the movie make it feel more like a comic book than like science fiction.

This has all been said before many times. Also, the movie’s villain is weakly motivated, and his story was not very compelling.”

Huh? This is just ridiculous. “Star Trek” 09 holds up really well five years on. Something that can’t be said for most of the previous ten Trek films.

As some of us have already said here it is the most epic of all the movies.

It is also the most critically acclaimed. People are still talking about the movie. “Reviews On The Run”, a video game/movie review show had it on its “Top 100 Movies” list. A lot of other publications list the film as being one of the best sci-fi movies of all time.

“Star Trek” is a modern classic — no question about it.

156. Cygnus-X1 - January 28, 2014

152. MJ – January 28, 2014

@151 Oh god, not that broken record from you again. We get your opinion, dude, OK? I got it well before the 19th time you repeated it here just now.

It’s not just my opinion, but an opinion expounded upon in many reviews, as has been shown here in the past. And, apart from that, I was addressing a specific attack being made on Ahmed.

But we get your opinion too, dude. These tracks are side by side. Sand people always walk single file, to hide their numbers.

157. MJ - January 28, 2014

“I was addressing a specific attack being made on Ahmed.”

Sheesh, what melodrama. LOL

Actually, at least what you are saying would be a logical response from Ahmed — his opinion of Trek 2009 has changed, and he no longer thinks of it in the epic way that he did back in 2012.

However, that is not what Ahmed is saying. Ahmed is insisting that he has basically held the same opinion of ST-2008 all along. So he disagrees with you completely.

158. MJ - January 28, 2014

@155 ““Star Trek” is a modern classic — no question about it.”

I agree 100%. Of course it is!

159. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2014

#156.

“It’s not just my opinion, but an opinion expounded upon in many reviews, as has been shown here in the past. And, apart from that, I was addressing a specific attack being made on Ahmed.”

C’mon, man, you’re just pulling nonsense out of your ass. Again. The number of you malcontents are smaller (and obviously more vocal) than the number of folks here who have continued to enjoyed the movie almost five years later. Your claim is equally as bogus and ridiculous as Marty’s dumbass assertion that “all” Trekkies want a return to the prime timeline.

160. Cygnus-X1 - January 28, 2014

157. MJ – January 28, 2014

Sheesh, what melodrama. LOL

YOU are calling someone melodramatic???

In any case, STII, STIII, STIV have held up well over time because of their stories and themes.

We’ll see how well ST09 holds up in another 10, 20, 30 years, after its more superficial attributes are no longer novel.

161. Dave H - January 28, 2014

Guys, ST 2009 is one of the best movies ever made…PERIOD!!!!!

162. Cygnus-X1 - January 28, 2014

159. Red Dead Ryan – January 28, 2014

Oh, yeah?

Well, you’re a doodie head.

163. Phil - January 28, 2014

@142. Speak for yourself, amigo. There’s nothing wrong with the timeline.

164. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2014

#162.

“Oh, yeah?

Well, you’re a doodie head.”

What? Am I supposed to know what the hell a “doodie head” is? Am I supposed to be insulted by your kindergarten-level name-calling?

LOL!

165. Dave H - January 28, 2014

I think if the detractors legitimately criticized STID for it’s problems, but praised ST 2009 for the epic that it is, then I would take these people more seriously.

Otherwise, as Red Dead Ryan suggests, they just come across as malcontents who bitch about anything related to JJ-Trek that one could possibly think of. A bunch of gripers who just bitch all the time so as to be able to see themselves “in print” here like they are famous or something. It’s kind of pathetic and sad.

166. Cygnus-X1 - January 28, 2014

164. Red Dead Ryan – January 28, 2014

What, doodie head?

167. Dave H - January 28, 2014

Is this now Romper Room here, Cygnus X-1?

Guy, this is not helping if you have any hope of me ever taking any opinions of yours seriously here?

168. Red Dead Ryan - January 28, 2014

#165.

“I think if the detractors legitimately criticized STID for it’s problems, but praised ST 2009 for the epic that it is, then I would take these people more seriously.

Otherwise, as Red Dead Ryan suggests, they just come across as malcontents who bitch about anything related to JJ-Trek that one could possibly think of. A bunch of gripers who just bitch all the time so as to be able to see themselves “in print” here like they are famous or something. It’s kind of pathetic and sad.”

I agree completely with you, Dave H. It is quite sad how far some Trekkies will go to bitch and whine about anything to do with the reboot movies. STID has some legitimate weaknesses — so its understandable when people criticise it, but ST09 was about as close to a perfect Trek movie as we have seen so far.

I wouldn’t have a problem with anyone saying something like – “The “Star Trek” 09 movie wasn’t to my taste despite it’s high quality production values and acting” – but the thing is, most naysayers here often bitch about how the writers somehow “destroyed the prime universe” or turned Trek into “Star Wars”. Some even hold a personal grudge against J.J Abrams and the writers.

169. Cygnus-X1 - January 28, 2014

167. Dave H – January 28, 2014

You want some, too?

Cuz there’s plenty more where that came from, buddy.

170. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

165. Dave H – January 28, 2014

I think if the detractors legitimately criticized STID for it’s problems, but praised ST 2009 for the epic that it is, then I would take these people more seriously.

I think that your comments would still be ad hominem and mean-spirited regardless, but I will briefly respond. I am always game for an in-depth Trek discussion that focuses on specific issues relating to the product, but it’s not worthwhile spending much time on it if a huge swath of opinions are going to dismissed as “malcontented” or “JJ-hating” at the outset. And of course, we’ll have MJ complaining that I’m repeating opinions previously expressed. But, to keep it brief…

“Epic.” What’s epic about ST09? The monster-chase scene on Delta Vega where Kirk happens to run into the one cave on the entire planet with Spock Prime in it? Was that epic?

The story’s villain, Nero, who decides to spend the rest of his life (and somehow convinces others to go along with his Quixotic crusade) waiting around to take revenge upon the one man, Spock Prime, who tried his hardest to selflessly save the planet of the story’s villain? Was that epic?

Or, was it the Enterprise crew, now new and improved (Chekov is a boy genius, and Uhura is “unmatched” in xenolinguistics!), coming together all of a sudden yada yada to save the Earth…yet again. Was this epic?

Look, as I’ve said many times, it’s a fun movie. It’s an action movie. Lots of action. Non-stop action. It really moves along at a clip. The camera moves around. Lots of lens flares. Sparingly little dialogue (why talk when you can run?). Did I mention all of the action?

But there’s not much underneath it all. There are a few nice comedic moments. I appreciated these more than anything else in the movie, actually, because they take talent to think of an execute effectively. And there’s a tear-jerking scene at the beginning, which has now become the BR-Trek formula—kill someone off early, someone whom we care about, to get us invested in the story. But, over time it plays more and more cheaply. The story doesn’t redeem that device. What’s the theme of the movie? What’s there to think about after it’s over? Are there any classic scenes? Are there any great lines that I can’t help but remember (besides the comedic bits)? The answers to these questions are not favorable. There’s nothing “epic” here, save perhaps the appearance of “epic-ness” achieved by all of the non-stop running around and constant urgency to save the Earth and so forth. There’s not much to ST09, and over time its hollowness becomes increasingly evident.

171. Jason - January 29, 2014

Yeah, quit it with the rehash of old stories with “a twist”. Into Darkness was a disaster as they took a beloved character from the original series and modified him into someone who wasn’t just unrecognizable but an insult to fans of the original. You have this giant universe to explore – why redo something they got right in the first place. Also, get back to Roddenberry’s vision – hopefully the rumours of Brad Bird directing are true, he can deliver on that.

172. Jim Nightshade - January 29, 2014

Access hollywood showed the nimoy video..he was returning from a trip to the carribean or some place like that..the pix n videos are him at the airport and yeh he was in a wheelchair with oxygen being given to him looking old n frail….hope hes just temporarily sick or something…wonder does he smoke..hope its not emphsema or related….my mom has copd and shes 87….

173. James - January 29, 2014

There’s a lot of negativity amongst some fans regarding the new Trek Movie. For me, what the ’09 movie lacked was relevance. Actually, beneath all the action, one finds that Star Trek Into Darkness was a surprisingly political for a summer blockbuster and sees Star Trek return to the allegorical story telling for which it is famous.

The movie acts as a metaphor for America’s descent into moral ambiguity following the terrorist attacks of 9/11. The hunt for John Harrison is analagous to the search for Bin Laden and the debate about whether to launch photon torpedoes at the Klingon home world is relevant to current debates regarding the morality of drone strikes.

The film concludes with Kirk realising that he lost perspective following the terrorist attack on Starfleet. He then rededicates himself to science and peaceful exploration and begins the famous five year mission, to explore strange new worlds and to seek out new life. The title “Into Darkness” refers to the moral state of American foreign policy following 9/11 (fear, vengeance, anger, and violence) and the final scenes state that it’s time row back from this.

174. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

Now, for an “epic” juxtaposition, consider “Star Wars.” (ep.4)

It’s about a fight for freedom and survival, by an out-matched, out-gunned group of insurgents vs. nothing less than an “EMPIRE.”

The hero of the story has no specific ego-driven ambitions—he is humble. He just wants something more than his mundane farmer’s life. There’s a mysterious school of thought introduced by an equally mysterious sage character who seems to know the boy somehow and agrees to tutor him in “the ways of the Force.”

The hero then uses the teachings, against conventional wisdom, to defeat the more technologically advanced Empire.

It’s “epic” because it’s about a well-defined, compelling hero. The movie is replete with archetypes and classic mythological themes. You walked away from “Star Wars” fascinated—by the world, by the ideas, by the relationships. The characters were strong, well-written and memorable—truly classic, as time has shown. The movie’s villain was fascinating and complex. He appeared to have some obvious motivations, like power and control, but also some mysterious motivations relating to his interpretation of the mysterious school of thought referenced by the sagacious, fatherly character. And, so on.

175. K-7 - January 29, 2014

#170

Oh no, are you repeating this all again?

Really ?

#173

SW, now? Huh? That has no bearing on Trek 2009.

wtf ?

176. Red Dead Ryan - January 29, 2014

Cygnus -X1 is now trying to distract us from his flawed arguments by going off on another tangent (“Star Wars”) which has nothing to do with the topic at hand here.

His name-calling antics and attempted change of subject must his way of admitting he has lost the debate. :-)

177. Red Dead Ryan - January 29, 2014

Cygnus -X1 is now trying to distract us from his flawed arguments by going off on another tangent (“Star Wars”) which has nothing to do with the topic at hand here.

His name-calling antics and attempted change of subject must be his way of admitting that he has lost the debate. :-)

178. Dave H - January 29, 2014

Red Dead Ryan,

Yea, I did not understand at all where he was going with the comparison to the 1977 SW movie? What was the point or analogy there???

Given that, and his weird childish name calling earlier, it makes one wonder if the guy is simply posting while drunk here tonight?

179. Vultan - January 29, 2014

Yep. Star Trek was a modern classic.
In 1966.

;-)

180. trekmaster78 - January 29, 2014

They may do what they want as long as they are not going to copy or reverse known scenes from classic trek any more, because that would not be very creative and would not justify the freedom they attended doing the “reboot”.

181. Mad Mann - January 29, 2014

RE: Use of TOS episode plot/characters for next film.

The next film should start out with the 10-minute mini-adventure, like the Nibiru incident from STiD, with a re-hash of a famous TOS episode. Maybe Trouble with Tribbles, Journey to Babel, or even Doomsday Machine. It should be done in the same fun, tap-dance style of the Nibiru incident, and then lead into the title card.

At that point, the real plot of the movie starts which is an all-new adventure for the Enterprise. I hope that it goes more sci-fi and philisophical, but with the level of excitement and action we have come to expect from JJ. It would also be nice to tie in with the events from the 2009 movie, sort of book-end the series.

182. dmduncan - January 29, 2014

149. MJ – January 28, 2014

You kidding? I like just about all of Nolan’s movies, and though I never included him as a major proponent of the film format, I should have. That’s good news. I hope JJ follows Nolan’s lead with episode 7.

183. spocky - January 29, 2014

Stay away from “revenge villains” and mega-ship showdowns, there should be more emphasis on discovery, mystery and exploration!

184. trekmaster78 - January 29, 2014

@spocky: I absolutely agree with you!!!!

185. Matt Wright - January 29, 2014

@ dmduncan – JJ has always liked film, so that’s not news. He’s also announced he’s using film for SW Ep. 7, but he’s not using IMAX. So there won’t be film as the end product, it will still be a digital cinema package. The only film projectors around now are good old school 70mm IMAX (not to be confused with “lieMAX” converted theaters that are just nicer digital theaters with an IMAX logo slapped on it). All major chains have replaced their 35mm film projectors with digital ones, it was part of a major cinema industry initiative over the past 5-years or so to migrate.

186. jed - January 29, 2014

Bob, ST09 and STID, for my money, are 2 of the best movies made in the last 20 years. I hope you can continue the good work, but Trek has always
suffered from not having too many “bad guys” to choose from, hence we are in a situation where ST2 always seems to be the reference point for every new movie that gets made. I think you need to re-invent some of the the other aliens that classic trek encountered. The Talosians could be reinvented as a race who enslave others with the mind contolling abilities etc, forcing the klingons to go to war with the Federation. Hopefully you can find a good JJ replacement too. Best of luck!

187. Ash - January 29, 2014

@65 marja.

I’m not saying the triumvirate can’t happen while Spock and Uhuras thing is going on. I’m just saying there hasn’t been enough of it and I’d like to see more. Just like I think spock and Uhura is a mess I’d like to see cleaned up and forgotten. My opinion. Agree to disagree.

“I agree with your point about HBIC Marcus and Uhura, but why is their beauty relevant?”

I’m not quite sure why you zeroed in on my using the word ‘beautiful’ when talking about carol and uhura. It was just one small thing in the midst of my discussion. Beauty has nothing to do with their talents but yes, I find them to be beautiful women. They ARE beautiful women. Along with smart and talented and strong. What’s wrong with saying so? It’s not like I rambled on saying how they were just eye candy. In fact I said the fact that carol was a Dr. of Advanced Weapons to be the coolest thing of it all. Maybe re-read my comment again…

I’m glad at least that we can agree that those two deserve some time together working or hanging out. I’d kill to see that in the next film!

188. Mad Mann - January 29, 2014

@182. spocky:

Yes and no. I agree to stay away from the revenge villains. It’s been done waaay too much. (“I will have my revenge” is a line I hope to never again in a movie.)

But, I don’t think there was enough space battles in the last movie. In fact, the only space battles was the Vengence shooting the Enterprise or the klingon patrol ship shooting the little Mudd ship. I hope for some more cool space battles, similar to the ones from DS9. But I hope that we are done with the whole “villain-ship-is-bigger-and-badder-than-the-Enterprise” thing.

189. Spock Out - January 29, 2014

If you revisit one of the original story lines I would like to see Errand of Mercy redone. It is an appropriate follow up to Into Darkness. It would present Kirk an opportunity to show his darker side (Pine would be happy). Gore fans like myself would enjoy some purple blood. I’m sure a equal amout of Red Shirts could be thrown in for cannon fodder. There could be epic space battles and carnage alike. The trek hippies would love the ending where more powerful sentient beings force peace on the Federation and Klingon Empire.

I’m sure Orci and crew would have a blast reworking it with today’s CGI, and with today’s political climate it would be interesting to see what they came up with in terms of angles.

Spock Out

I’ve been reading the Khan story line with IDW – I wish at least the fourth issue would of been incorporated into Into Darkness. The movie would of flowed better imo… Good job on the comic btw.

190. Hugh Hoyland - January 29, 2014

185. Matt Wright – January 29, 2014

I did read where JJ was “re-thinking” shooting at least parts of Star Wars 7 in IMAX, but hadnt yet (at least at that point) abandoned it all together. Bummer because STID looked fantastic IMO.

191. Matt Wright - January 29, 2014

@ 190 – Back in Fall 2013 IMAX was trying to court him into doing IMAX. However he said he is not going to use IMAX in this interview from a couple of weeks ago.
http://collider.com/star-wars-episode-7-script-imax-j-j-abrams/

In the right situation, I’d like to use IMAX again. The problem with IMAX is that it’s a very loud camera. It’s a very unreliable camera. Only so much film can be in the camera. You can’t really do intimate scenes with it. It’s slow. They break down often. Having said that, they’re working on digital versions of that, so there may be a version one day. But, we’re going to be shooting this next movie on film.

192. Will - January 29, 2014

I hope the next movie ends with resetting the timeline back to the Prime universe. That way we can put this whole overly shiny universe full of less interesting caricatures of characters we know and love behind us.

Maybe the next outing can be something wholly original in the future of the prime universe or, perhaps, fill in one of those gaps in time which we haven’t seen in the prime universe… anything but rehashing/changing/dumbing down existing characters and concepts simply for the sake of trading on their names.

193. somethoughts - January 29, 2014

Yes, I would like to see slow motion space battle between enterprise and klingons, equally matched ships with cool tactics. Both ships arw stuck in nebula cloud and cannot raise shields and must use their wits to outsmart one another. 5-10mins of this would be awesome. Be awesomw to see scotty beam over cloaking device and cloak the enterprise during battle lol

194. somethoughts - January 29, 2014

Enterprise has been spanked in the last two movies, lets see her show the klingons who is boss

195. Phil - January 29, 2014

Here’s a problem – the Trek tech has been amped up considerably. Vengeance has demonstrated that Enterprise is very, very obsolete. We can beam all over the universe. Khan’s serum is a cure all for everything – we don’t need Khans blood, McCoy whipped up a serum, which should be easily manufactured or replicated now. Vengeance is twice as big, and THREE TIMES as fast. Warp 27, anyone? Better weapons? It’s just not plausible to ignore all this moving forward….

196. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

178. Dave H – January 29, 2014

Red Dead Ryan,

Yea, I did not understand at all where he was going with the comparison to the 1977 SW movie? What was the point or analogy there???

Man, the two of you are just awful. Seriously.

I don’t know how it’s possible to not get the point of such a clearly, flatly stated comparison—of a truly “epic” movie with one that was not really “epic,” and the reasons why.

But, please, just ignore my posts from now on. You two are always mean-spirited anyway. Not to mention your proclivity for ridiculous, paranoid accusations.

197. Chris PIke - January 29, 2014

First time I’ve lost interest in Trek for 40 years, ST up ID.

198. MJ - January 29, 2014

@193

“Yes, I would like to see slow motion space battle between enterprise and klingons, equally matched ships with cool tactics.”

Ah, I think I understand where you are going with this. Kind of like the slow-motion action sequences from The Six Million Dollar Man, right?

Maybe bring in John Wu to direct? And perhaps they could fire Bad Robot and bring in Golan-Globus to produce?

;-)

199. MJ - January 29, 2014

@197

Well I lost interest in your post here instantly. And it’s not the first time either.

200. dmduncan - January 29, 2014

185. Matt Wright – January 29, 2014

Well what that MJ quote says is that Interstellar will be an exception to the digital rule, and if you shoot your movie even partially in IMAX then it makes sense to follow it.

JJ changes his mind so much that I’m not at all convinced that his pledge not to use IMAX (at all?) is reliable. It wouldn’t surprise me if he says something totally different next week.

There are also lots of small towns that have un-upgraded projection systems. Has anyone besides Paramount decided not to release movies on film anymore?

201. Marja - January 29, 2014

Overall, I loved ST2009 because it brought back Star Trek, and my fave characters, in a big way. It was a Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake Streamline Baby, and it was bee-yoo-tiful.

It was not, however, completely free of problems, and pretending it was just seems odd. If legitimate critical points are raised about the script, must there be such a “clique” – or “claque” – mentality?

(The claque was a group that shouted down an opera or theatrical work.)

I’m not saying Cygnus’s opinions are masterworks, but I do get a sense that some folks are shouting him down because they disagree with him, they’ve always disagreed with him, and his presence here is almost as “nuclear” to them as Ahmed’s was, for awhile. Yes, he often says the same things repeatedly, as do others. But his opinions are often rendered with critical discernment and that’s why I like reading them, EVEN WHEN I DISAGREE.

Can’t we all just discuss, and get along, without “drawing lines in the sand”?

And before anyone says it, I saw Cygnus’s kindergarten-ish “doodie head” remark as pure, unadulterated SARCASM. I think he was remarking upon the meaningless schoolboy name-calling that happens here.

202. Marja - January 29, 2014

170 Cygnus, I agree with many of your opinions in this entry concerning the weaknesses of the plot points in ST09. These are things my writer friends and I questioned later in great detail, especially the handy-dandy coinkidink of AUKirk running into Prime Spock. Oh yeah, and Scotty being handy as well. And Vulcan being so close by Delta Vega that Spock could see it implode. Wha’?

Unlike you, I love “boy genius” Chekov and linguistics expert Uhura! Wouldn’t they all have to be finest of the finest to be on the flagship of the fleet?

All the running, the rushing, are, I think, Abrams’ trademarks, the pell-mell rush to the conclusion, these were present in STID as well, to the detriment of its legitimate story points re: terrorism and over-reaction and the military-industrial complex.

173 James, THANKS I couldn’t have said it better.

187 Ash, it’s irrelevant because it’s akin to saying “the gorgeous Kirk and his handsome first officer Spock” when mentioning the characters.

Yep, we disagree on Spock and Uhura, no surprise there. I like them as a couple.

Yes, agreed, I’d like to see more of Spock, Kirk, McCoy discussing / philosophizing / arguing / working together.

AND I WANT TO SEE UHURA TAKE THE COMMAND CHAIR if the senior staff all beam out for a Big Adventure.

203. Marja - January 29, 2014

174 Cygnus, I think they made an analogy to SWarsIV — Pike is Kirk’s sagacious mentor. I don’t know if the “Hero’s Journey” aspect was as well-expressed in Trek, but it’s in there.

204. somethoughts - January 29, 2014

#198

LOL I had to google six million dollar man to get it rofl but seriously my complaint about stid was that the space battle sequences happened too dmfast, blink and you miss it. I would rather a sequence in space where it is slowed down, time to digest what is going on and to see the captains and crew react to each chess move, more of a submarine battle I suppose.

205. Marja - January 29, 2014

172, It would not surprise me to learn if Mr Nimoy has some breathing difficulties. Although he quit smoking quite a while back, he was a heavy smoker for decades.

But before we all get crazy worried, here are some things to consider:

[1] flight from Caribbean to LA, around 8 hours, one on a puddle-jumper; wait times between flights; [2] his age, 82; [3] the fatiguing modern-day routine of air travel, line up here, get X-rayed there, &c.; [4] the dry, dry air on airliners would probably challenge anyone with the slightest breathing problem; [5] wheelchair is a speedy way to travel in a crowded airport :-)

With his many interests in, and appetite for, life, I think Leonard Nimoy will live long and prosper.

206. Matt Wright - January 29, 2014

@ dmduncan – I wouldn’t say that there are lots of screens anymore. Mostly just indie theaters.
All the major chains (i.e. the money makers that have pull in Hollywood) are converted. And 90% of all US theaters have been converted as of July 2013. http://natoonline.org/initiatives/cinema-technologies/

There were incentive programs up until last year to help smaller chains convert.
For example: I was able to see the progress over a couple of years of a smaller theater group here in Northern California as they converted through partnerships with a digital cinema lease-to-own company (called Cinedigm) and the projector manufacturer itself (Barco). As part of the deal they now run a logo “reel” for both companies before a movie starts.

As an aside here’s a good article on an indie movie theater’s conversion, it’s very detailed and quite an interesting read:
http://www.renewtheaters.org/blog/2012/county-theaters-journey-digital-cinema/

I hear ya about JJ and his flip-flopping, we’ll see.

About Interstellar, I’m quite sure only the IMAX showings will be on a film print, and that’s because of the superiority of the 70mm format. But if you don’t have as much pull (or care as much) as someone like Nolan it probably wouldn’t happen. Remember IMAX is the exception, since it’s a special format.

207. Kenji - January 29, 2014

One of the great reasons to embrace the side-booting of TOS is that you get back the wonderful core of personalities. Instead of just being attributes (e.g. horny Kirk, snarky McCoy), I would like the new movie to have each of the leads act in accordance with their character. In other words, drive the plot out of their character, not give us a generic action template with a bit of horny Kirk and snarky McCoy on top.

What is McCoy’s defining feature? A bruised and wary compassion. Spock’s? Ruthless logic. Kirk?

Well that’s debatable. As the star of the show, he gets the most sides. We’ve seen him as the genius, and we’ve seen him as impulsive, and we’ve seen him as self-sacrificing.

Those are all great dramatic building blocks, but so far he’s still kind of a wet-behind-the-ears punk.

I’d like the five year mission story (which is what the next one seems to be about) to fully establish him as a legendary leader.

Kirk is not only an action hero undertaking solo exploits (though some of that is appropriate when he boards other ships and explores planets), he is a commander on a long, faraway cruise.

What’s that like? Does his crew follow him because they have to, or because they are convinced of his abilities and luck? What is his reputation in the service? (I’m thinking a mixture of envy and distrust among the Admiralty, and something not far from total awe in the ranks.)

Can the movie show us more examples of brilliant tactical thinking, understanding of his personnel, and shiphandling?

This is a longwinded way of saying that I hope the next movie makes full use of the scenario in which you have this well-equipped but solo vessel almost totally on its own in the wilds. The loneliness of it, and the violence. The strangeness, and the beauty. The warm community in the ship, and the cold alien space outside.

208. Marja - January 29, 2014

189 Spock out, I agree “Errand of Mercy” would make a terrific episode, updated, but I’d prefer to see Orci & co. forget the “twisting old plot elements” and move into uncharted space.Throwaway dialogue [sort of like Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson speaking of the Giant Rat of Sumatra] referencing TOS, or aliens or props in the background, would be Easter Eggs without a whole [unsuccessful] re-hash of a Khan, for example..

STID would have been stronger without the inclusion of “Khan” as a character. “Harrison” would’ve been just fine.

209. Ash - January 29, 2014

@marja

It’s not actually all that irrelevant because it’s not something I emphasized on. Had I just mentioned their beauty and none of their skills or talents, as you did with your example of Kirk and Spock (which is not similar at all to what I did) than I might agree with you. Seeing as I didn’t however, I’m not sure what the big deal is. I am a woman and I can appreciate how lovely they are. No wrong in saying so while singing the rest of their praises. Still not so sure what your point was in trying to call me out on that, or why you’re so against it…

If acknowledging beauty among other attributes is so irrelevant to you, even in passing, why bother commenting on it at all?

That’s a rhetorical question, FYI. I have no desire to go any further on the topic. Just stuns me sometimes to see the things people get bothered over. Like an innocent, quick comment to how pretty someone is.

210. Marja - January 29, 2014

207 Kenji, Very good points, and I, too, would love to see plot coming more from Kirk’s genius than his [present] impulsiveness.

I remain hopeful that the Kirk at the end of STID is “older and wiser,” will not be so impulsive, but will be the tactical/strategical genius we saw in early TOS.

Spock is not just “ruthless logic” in this AU [In fact I'd argue that Classic Spock has seldom been ruthless in TOS/movies, with the exception of Valeris and a few villains in TOS].

AU Spock is now bruised, and, I think, compassionate. I hope that in Trek3 there will be evidence of Spock’s having reflected not only on the loss of Vulcan, with so many lives, but the risks he posed to his own life on Nibiru, and on his loss of control in trying to beat Khan to death.

211. MJ - January 29, 2014

@206

The two mom and pop boutique theaters near me are both digital now.

212. bassmaster22 - January 29, 2014

That short answer is very damaging. No, Orci, you do not need to echo anything that’s already been done before. That was the problem with the last one.
How about a script that doens’t try to reinvent, reimagine or redo anything we’ve already seen?
Because at this point, this series is pretty much turning into a funhouse mirror of previously told stories.
I’d go without a 50th anniversary movie if the only other option was a film rehashing the rehashed. You might as well just have a movie like TNG’s “Shades of Gray” and have two hours of flashbacks in that case.
No whale probes, giant clouds controlled by voyager sixes, genesis planets, borg, planet killers, guardian of forever, tribbles, crazy half vulcan god-seeking brothers, klingon generals named Kang, time travel, alternate universes…you get the idea.
There must be SOMETHING else you can do.
But, alas, I guarantee the next film will have at least two of these elements.

213. Marja - January 29, 2014

209 Ash, I am a woman and also appreciate how beautiful we are.

I feel no need, however, to mention beauty when I mention brains. That’s all I was saying.

In our society this mention of beauty seems to be necessary for brilliant women but not for brilliant men, as if brilliant women need a bag stuck over their heads. I was just asking the question.

214. somethoughts - January 29, 2014

Kirk and crew discover the guardian and use it to save lost loved ones only to return to a different future.

215. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

=================================
Chris Pine to Star in David Gordon Green Thriller LINE

Heat Vision reports that Chris Pine is attached to star in the “gritty thriller” Line, which Pineapple Express helmer David Gordon Green will direct. Penned by The Walking Dead scribe Sang Kyu Kim, Pine is set to star as a patrol agent on a downward spiral following the loss of his wife and young son. When he unexpectedly finds himself the caretaker of a ten-year-old orphan after a shootout with a criminal cartel, he must go on the run and protect the boy while dealing with enemies on both sides of the law and border.
……………….
As for Pine, he most recently wrapped roles in the Disney musical Into the Woods and Horrible Bosses 2, and he’ll next be seen in Joe Carnahan’s action-comedy Stretch.

There’s also the matter of Star Trek 3, which will likely begin production late this year or sometime next year, once Paramount concludes its director search.

http://collider.com/chris-pine-david-gordon-green-line/

216. Spockboy - January 29, 2014

My problem is certainly not with the actors. Unfortunately it is the writing. For example the Spock McCoy thing. In NU Trek McCoy is just this 1 dimensional cantankerous person, which makes the Spock McCoy thing too simplistic and dumbed down now. There were so many levels to their relationship in TOS which is why we found these characters so interesting.
This scene for example. McCoy starts as amiable, grateful, then he feels vulnerable and silly, and THEN goes into anger (to protect his ego) and then he becomes philosophical. ALL IN ONE SCENE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIOsLh8JNvE

Other Spock McCoy moments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxidjpXRC-E

:)

217. MJ - January 29, 2014

Marja,

After reviewing the posts from very late last night, it certainly looks like Cyngus was impaired thought drink or something else. And sorry, but I’m not buying that his calling RDR “doodie-head” several times was some kind of sophisticated attempt at sarcasm…LOL…if that was suppose to be sarcasm, then it was the worst attempt at sarcasm that I have ever seen.

I get your view completely that he should not be shouted down though — I am with you there. It’s just that he repeats the same stuff over and over and over and over…”we get it now!”

I kind of like the guy, actually. But, although I am sure he will deny it, I do believe that he had “a few too many” last night of something. He was really erratic and infantile — he was all over the place — and usually he is more reasoned than that.

218. TUP - January 29, 2014

@84 – what’s pathetic is people like you who are so insulting and dismissive of those people with different ideas and liked/dislikes.

ST09 did well because it captured the Trek audience and the mainstream action movie audience. Additionally, it brought back lapsed Trek fans through the heavy promotion of Nimoy’s inclusion and the promise of seeing how the legendary characters came together.

Notwithstanding the financial success of STID, creatively it faltered and didnt have the same buzz or excitement. Why? Partially a messy story. but also partially because it was this cast on their own and that just didnt have the same buzz or magic of the first.

One day Nimoy and Shatner will be dead. And there will be a lot of people who wished they got a great story with them one last time.

219. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

@dmduncan & Matt Wright,

This article is predicting that film might go the way of the dinosaurs by the end of 2014 !!
==========================
Paramount Makes Exception to All-Digital Policy for Christopher Nolan’s ‘Interstellar’

Paramount made waves earlier this month when they announced that they would no longer release movies on film, becoming the first major studio to go all-digital. Except, it turns out, they’re not quite going all-digital. The company still plans to make rare exceptions for select pictures, including Christopher Nolan‘s Interstellar.

About a week and a half ago, Paramount notified exhibitors that they would no longer release movies on film. At the time, they said that Anchorman 2: The Legend Continues would be the last of their pictures released on 35mm film. Martin Scorsese’s The Wolf of Wall Street, which opened a few days later, was the first Paramount release distributed entirely in the digital format.

However, the studio backtracked slightly today. “Although we anticipate the majority of the studio’s future releases to be executed in digital formats across the U.S., select exceptions will be made,” said Rob Moore, vice chairman of Paramount Pictures, in a statement. The first of those special cases that we know of is Interstellar, which was shot on 35mm as well as IMAX. The sci-fi adventure will be in both film and digital formats when it lands November 7, 2014.

The advantage of digital distribution for studios is that it’s much cheaper for the studio. Film prints can cost up to $2,000 a pop, while a digital copy typically comes in at under $100. Paramount’s decision had pundits predicting that other studios would soon follow suit, making traditional film all but extinct by the end of the year.

But some artists still prefer film, including Nolan. And while Paramount isn’t likely to bend their new rules for just anyone, Nolan is a critically acclaimed filmmaker whose last five releases have earned over $3 billion collectively at the global box office. If any project seems worth the extra cost of distributing on film, it’s probably Nolan’s star-studded Interstellar.

http://www.slashfilm.com/paramount-makes-exception-to-all-digital-policy-for-christopher-nolans-interstellar/

220. Blue Thunder - January 29, 2014

@131. I don’t think Nicholas Meyer overdid the Shakespearean theme for Star Trek VI – The Undiscovered Country. As a matter fact, those were very relevant, as well as being a key portion to the film.

221. Danpaine - January 29, 2014

204. somethoughts – January 29, 2014
#198 – MJ.

Gentlemen – check out the film The Enemy Below (1957) with Robert Mitchum, if you have the chance. I recommended the same to Mr. Orci on one of these threads a while back. It was one of the inspirations for the TOS episode Balance of Terror, which is the type of ship battle you’re talking about.

I’d love to see something like that too. Slow, tense and calculated.

222. Red Dead Ryan - January 29, 2014

#216.

“One day Nimoy and Shatner will be dead. And there will be a lot of people who wished they got a great story with them one last time.”

C’mon, Leonard Nimoy was recently spotted being pushed around at an airport in a wheelchair and a few months ago William Shatner was hobbling around with a cane. It’s quite evident now that they can no longer physically play their parts anymore.

And no, I don’t think most fans will have regrets. TOS will always be remembered as one of the greatest shows of all time, with Kirk and Spock being two of the most memorable and popular characters ever.

Shatner and Nimoy had cemented their legacies long ago. There’s no need to keep asking them to carry the torch after the torch has been passed to younger actors already.

223. dmduncan - January 29, 2014

217. Ahmed – January 29, 2014

Yeah, we probably all read that article by now. As for the death of film by 2014: Film has been called dead for years now, but its heart keeps beating. I read an article yesterday from 2011 where it was pronounced dead. So…

The market for film stock has been trimmed back to Kodak which recently emerged from bankruptcy. With Agfa and Fuji out of the business, a much slimmer Kodak company owns the whole market, and that’s good news.

The future of film hasn’t looked good, for sure, but it isn’t dead yet. As long as the demand supports the market which, as I’ve said, has been cut to one stock producer with no competition, it will live.

224. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

201. Marja – January 29, 2014
202. Marja – January 29, 2014
203. Marja – January 29, 2014

Thank you, Marja.

174 Cygnus, I think they made an analogy to SWarsIV — Pike is Kirk’s sagacious mentor. I don’t know if the “Hero’s Journey” aspect was as well-expressed in Trek, but it’s in there.

I think they also took the Ben-Kenobi-to-the-rescue/Sand-People/Tatooine scene from Star Wars IV for the Spock-Prime-to-the-rescue/Monster-chase/Delta Vega cave scene in ST09. In both movies, the young protagonist is rescued from attacking monsters by a sagacious teacher character who then imparts critical information to the protagonist while they’re inside a cave (or cave-like dwelling, in the case of Ben’s place).

I suppose you can compare the Pike/Kirk relationship to the Ben/Luke relationship, but I also think it’s fair to say that the former is much more superficial and less developed than the latter.

In SW, there’s a whole school of thought and way of thinking being imparted from master to pupil. We actually see this teaching going on, and not just superficially. We’re shown controversy relating to the school of thought, as Han takes pragmatic issue with The Force, and Ben retorts, “In my experience, there’s no such thing as luck,” a statement of belief in a certain metaphysical premise. Further, Luke uses his teachings, the ways of The Force, to defeat the villain at the end of the story, completing his arc.

Try to contrast the above with ST09. There’s not much to say, is there? Pike doesn’t really “teach” Kirk anything; he just “challenges” him with a few words to “do better” and push himself to achieve his potential, and that’s pretty much all there is to the master/pupil relationship in ST09, as Pike is taken prisoner by Nero and we don’t see or hear from him again until he’s rescued by Kirk and Spock. Kirk does not specifically use any lessons taught him by Pike in order to defeat Nero, nor is Kirk’s arc particularly contingent upon any lessons taught him by Pike, other than to just “do better” in general.

Do you see what I mean when I criticize ST09 as shallow and superficial?

225. crazydaystrom - January 29, 2014

218. Blue Thunder
“@131. I don’t think Nicholas Meyer overdid the Shakespearean theme for Star Trek VI – The Undiscovered Country. As a matter fact, those were very relevant, as well as being a key portion to the film.

Though I appreciate Shakespearean references when when aptly used I think Meyer went waaaayyy overboard with all of it TUC (a Trek film I’m fond of, by the way). To me proud intelligent Klingons having that degree of not only knowledge of but appreciation for a Terran author seems oxymoronic. It makes for good Trek, I suppose, but bad science fiction.

226. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

@221. dmduncan

“As for the death of film by 2014: Film has been called dead for years now, but its heart keeps beating. I read an article yesterday from 2011 where it was pronounced dead. So…”

I think the difference between then & now that studios nowadays are pushing hard for digital release. And from a financial standpoint, it does make sense to replace film which cost $2,000 for a copy to digital which cost only $100 or less. Studios, after all, concerned only with their own bottom line.

“a much slimmer Kodak company owns the whole market, and that’s good news.”

Well, I don’t like the idea of one company monopolizing the market for a specific product or services.

227. MJ - January 29, 2014

Ahmed — yea — this is what I covered already back in post @149.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

217. Ahmed – January 29, 2014
@dmduncan & Matt Wright,

This article is predicting that film might go the way of the dinosaurs by the end of 2014 !!
==========================
Paramount Makes Exception to All-Digital Policy for Christopher Nolan’s ‘Interstellar’

228. MJ - January 29, 2014

@223

Film it going to peter out by about 2030 or so, whether we all like it or not.

229. MJ - January 29, 2014

No Blue Thunder, you are wrong here. Marja nailed this one completely.

The Shakespeare is way, way over the top in TUC. It was lazy writing by N. Meyer. In comparison, his brilliant WOK script uses appropriate bits of Shakespeare and Dickens to support the story rather than distract from the story. Not to mention the ridiculous Nixon quote by Spock which completely took me out of the story.

TUC is a weak TOS movie that looks lamer year after year, unfortunately. The main reason it was highly thought of when it came out was because it was a refreshing improvement from the un-watchable STV that preceded it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
218. Blue Thunder – January 29, 2014
@131. I don’t think Nicholas Meyer overdid the Shakespearean theme for Star Trek VI – The Undiscovered Country. As a matter fact, those were very relevant, as well as being a key portion to the film.

230. Vultan - January 29, 2014

Film won’t completely die. It’ll become a small market for purists and hobbyists. Believe it or not, but there are still people who shoot in Super 8mm. Even people who still take tintype photographs! The recent 2012 film “Beasts of the Southern Wild” was shot in 16mm, and nominated by the Academy. So you never know….

The popular medium is always changing, but the media left behind never completely “die.”

231. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

215. MJ – January 29, 2014

No, it’s just that the humor went over your head, apparently.

I was responding to name-calling with name-calling, but my response was so obviously, intentionally juvenile as a mockery of the person/people to whom I was responding. (Well, when I say “obviously,” obviously I’m not referring to you, who obviously didn’t get it.)

You see, there are a handful of people here who just snipe and name-call in lieu of thoughtful responses pertaining to the issue being discussed. Comments by these people really do not merit a response—and I regret giving Dave H the benefit of the doubt and responding sincerely to him in the end. But, I figured that, if any good is to come of their sniping, a bit of humor would be in order. At least one other person got it.

I keep regular office hours, in case there are any other fairly obvious things that you need explained.

232. MJ - January 29, 2014

@228. Maybe sleep deprivation then — you seemed wacked out in those posts last night, and the 1977 SW comparison made no sense to me whatsoever?

(And BTW, I think Trek 2009 was better than SW, but not close to ESB, which is one of the best movies of all time…the original SW (E4) is a bit overrated in my opinion)

Whatever the reason, you didn’t show up with your A-game last night, dude.

233. MJ - January 29, 2014

@222

“Though I appreciate Shakespearean references when when aptly used I think Meyer went waaaayyy overboard with all of it TUC (a Trek film I’m fond of, by the way). To me proud intelligent Klingons having that degree of not only knowledge of but appreciation for a Terran author seems oxymoronic. It makes for good Trek, I suppose, but bad science fiction.”

Crazydaystrom, I agree 100%. It was “lazy” writing by NM.

234. MJ - January 29, 2014

@227.

When I said, “peter out,” I am not including niche artists or very small subsets of usage still…”the hobbyists” if you will. Undoubtedly, although it will really expensive, someone in the globe will keep film in production for hobbyists with deep pockets.

235. somethoughts - January 29, 2014

#219

Very nice

236. somethoughts - January 29, 2014

I meant #221

237. somethoughts - January 29, 2014

Had no idea, the enemy below was used as inspiration to balance of terror, ty for that danpaine

238. Vultan - January 29, 2014

I don’t see the problem with Klingons appreciating Shakespeare, and probably wanting to show off their knowledge to humans (either due to insecurity or ego or both).

I’m sure there were Americans during the Cold War who appreciated Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy. Stalin was known to be a big fan of Tarzan and American westerns. And Kim Jong Il loved Daffy Duck. Yeah, that’s no joke. Look it up.

239. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

219. Ahmed – January 29, 2014

That’s really a shame. There’s a good documentary on Netflix, hosted by Keanu Reeves, on the film vs. digital issue. It contains some good interviews with Martin Scorcese and others.

Digital for movies heavy on CGI is understandable, but for other movies digital substantially robs them of aesthetic value. Unfortunately, digital is just so much cheaper and easier now than film. Actually, if you consider what has ultimately resulted in the music and film industries as a consequence of digitization, there’s a very good case to be made that the effects have been a net negative.

240. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

@ 238. Cygnus-X1 – January 29, 2014

“There’s a good documentary on Netflix, hosted by Keanu Reeves, on the film vs. digital issue. It contains some good interviews with Martin Scorcese and others.”

I didn’t know that, will check it out tonight, thanks.

241. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

If you are interested in following Bob’s political theories & views on terrorism, make sure that you watch his upcoming show “Identity” on CW!

===================================

CW Orders Terrorism Drama From Kurtzman/Orci

The CW joined the pilot fray Wednesday, picking up dramas from three established producers.

The youth-skewing network has picked up terrorism drama Identity, from Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci, and Jane the Virgin, an adaptation of the Venezuelan telenovela.

“Identity” centers on a young woman in need of a transplant who learns she is related to a powerful family whose son is her only hope for a donor organ. The CIA approaches her to investigate the family’s involvement in domestic terrorism and to infiltrate their rarified world. Her loyalty, morality and ethics are tested as she’s forced to slowly build a case against the family who saved her life.

Corinne Brinkerhoff (The Good Wife) will pen the script and exec produce alongside Kurtzman, Orci and their K/O Paper Products president Heather Kadin. Scripted World’s Rob Golenberg (Betrayal) and Alon Aranya (Hostages) will also executive produce the drama from CBS Television Studios, K/O and Scripted World.

“Identity” was one of multiple projects Kurtzman/Orci had in the works this season after the Star Trek duo moved from 20th Century Fox to CBS Television Studios last year.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/cw-orders-terrorism-drama-kurtzman-675456

242. MJ - January 29, 2014

@238,

Hmm,

My Remastered Blu-Ray of Lawrence of Arabia (as shown on my 1080P LCD projector with 120″ screen), which was based on the new 4K digital restoration, looks significantly better than ANY of the 3 retrospective film-theater viewings of this movie that I seen over the years. Many reviewers have commented that this 4K restoration is the only re-release of the movie that captures all of the lighting, color and majesty of the “fresh movie print” release in 70MM in 1962.

243. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

232. MJ – January 29, 2014

The topic was the meaning of “epic” and whether ST09 is a good example of an epic.

The meaning of “epic,” as per Wikipedia, relates to a movie “wherein the story has a theme of grandeur and heroism.”

In two posts, I briefly juxtaposed the character arcs of the heroes in ST09 and STIV, as well as some other points pertaining to the respective stories and the respective heroes’ places therein (and also some general criticism of ST09) as means of addressing the issue of “epic-ness” which had been raised.

244. MJ - January 29, 2014

“If you are interested in following Bob’s political theories & views on terrorism, make sure that you watch his upcoming show “Identity” on CW!”

The CW is a perfect destination for this wacko stuff related to his politics and conspiracy theories. LOL

245. MJ - January 29, 2014

@242

The journey of Kirk and two Spocks in Trek 2009 is an obvioius textbook example of a heroic journey in an epic. What more could one ask in epic Star Trek than the initial origin story of Kirk and Spock’s first mission, which results in saving the entire Federation.

Epic by definition. DUH !!!!!

246. marty - January 29, 2014

oh, how i do love being bashed. alternate timeline/alternate universe.. same thing. yes, the fans want the original timeline back. you’re still a fan if you like this one, but heck i don’t see why you can’t want something else other than kirk/spock/etc related when there’s plenty, and i do mean plenty of real estate left from the original timeline. what about after the events of enterprise? or how about after the events of undiscovered country? or after nemesis? see? plenty of stories and characters left that can be done in a new, exciting way like we have now.. but hopefully with less lense flares and more stable cameras.

247. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

241. MJ – January 29, 2014

I haven’t seen it, so I can’t comment.

But it’s hard to imagine, say, a Stanley Kubrick film like “Barry Lyndon” which is so rich in aesthetic value being shot in digital (instead of on film) without losing anything.

Also, with regard to Lawrence of Arabia, you’re talking about an original film shoot which was later transferred to digital. The recorded music analogy would be AAD or ADD vs. DDD.

To my ears (and I am a very skilled listener), ADD sounds substantially better than DDD, but not necessarily better than AAD. There is information captured in the original analogue recording (or filming) which might transfer well to digital, but which would not be initially captured by a digital recording (or shoot).

248. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

239. Ahmed – January 29, 2014

Here you go, it’s called “Side By Side”:

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Side_by_Side/70239473?trkid=2361637

249. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

244. MJ – January 29, 2014

What more could one ask in epic Star Trek than the initial origin story of Kirk and Spock’s first mission, which results in saving the entire Federation.

I directly addressed that in #224.

250. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

@246. Cygnus-X1

Thanks for the link

251. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

@ 243. MJ – January 29, 2014

““If you are interested in following Bob’s political theories & views on terrorism, make sure that you watch his upcoming show “Identity” on CW!”

The CW is a perfect destination for this wacko stuff related to his politics and conspiracy theories. LOL”

Or Fox :)

252. Phil - January 29, 2014

@241. Well, given Bobs aversion to depicting people of color as terrorists, it’s no surprise the focus is on ‘domestic terrorism’. So, basically a plot about evil middle aged white guys in league with shadowy quasi-gov’t types and diabolical corporate self interests, probably also evil white guys.

And the good news is, it’s on the CW, where maybe 24 people will actually see it. If they get 30 viewers, it’ll be picked up for a second season.

253. Jack - January 29, 2014

I can’t believe that there are over 200 comments on a film that has not been written and there are no details.

This is why Star Trek Fans are so bloody hyper critical. The First Two Films were FANTASTIC! No argument here. These Anal Trek fans who want the original universe restored to prominence need to fall back.

The Prime Universe died in 2002 with Star Trek Nemisis. It had run its course. You need to talk to RIck Berman about that. In the mean time appreciate the journey and allow yourself to be surprised instead of trying to analyze Bob Orci and the direction of the next film.

Trek fans are never satisfied.

254. Phil - January 29, 2014

@251. I’m guessing you’ve never actually watched Fox….

255. Phil - January 29, 2014

@246. Still speaking for ‘the fans’, I see. I’m a fan, and I don’t need the original timeline back. And I’m not alone.

Go check out the fan productions – that seems to be right up your alley.

256. Adama - January 29, 2014

I’d love to see a pure space exploration classic mission. No renegade admirals, no threatened Earth, no superbig baddie with an agenda. Something along the lines of what Prometheus wanted to be but was not.
Or an adaptation of the Prime Directive novel. that could work too.

257. dmduncan - January 29, 2014

226. Ahmed – January 29, 2014

“Well, I don’t like the idea of one company monopolizing the market for a specific product or services.”

They are not “monopolizing the market.” They are the “last man standing” after Fuji and Agfa (the competition) decided to get out of the business.

258. dmduncan - January 29, 2014

230. Vultan – January 29, 2014

That’s true. But film is just so expensive to produce and develop that the market of people who have the money to use it has to be big enough to keep the industry alive.

259. dmduncan - January 29, 2014

247. Cygnus-X1 – January 29, 2014

Barry Lyndon is an amazing achievement in cinematography.

260. MJ - January 29, 2014

@247

Yea, but you got hung up on this SW 1977 analogy. You may not be aware of this, but SW 1977 is based partially on Kurosawa’s The Hidden Fortress, and SW 1977 did not even come close in inventing the whole master-apprentice prodigal son and father-needs redemption thing.

Comparing ST-2009 to SW-1999 with the assumption that SW-1977 is somehow “more original” is a fools errand.

261. MJ - January 29, 2014

With digital technology, one would think you would come to a place in time where a director, subjected to a double-blind test, and forces to pick which of two presentations was digital and which was film, could not longer pick beyond random 50/50.

We are not there yet, but I bet we will be in 10 years time. Digital 35mm still camera print technology is 90% there already, and it follows that movie digital will eventually get there as well.

262. MJ - January 29, 2014

…and included in the technology is the process of making digital look more like film, which is continuously being improved upon.

263. MJ - January 29, 2014

a great article with examples on this:

http://www.gypsycreative.com/making-video-look-like-film/

264. Vultan - January 29, 2014

#258

I don’t think there will be an industry at all. Like I said, film will survive with hobbyists, guys in garages and workshops, who will ultimately have to make their own celluloid.

265. MJ - January 29, 2014

@264

Yep, that is how it will continue…”deep pocket hobbyists”

Like classic car enthusiasts who have garages full of cars that they restore a take to shows.

266. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

@ 254. Phil – January 29, 2014

“@251. I’m guessing you’ve never actually watched Fox….”

Actually I do. Two of the biggest TV shows on Fox in the last 2 decade were “The X Files” & “24”. Both of them focused heavily on conspiracy theories & government illegal activities.

That why Fox is the right place for “Identity”, not CW, a network that is mostly about teenage melodrama !

267. dmduncan - January 29, 2014

264. Vultan – January 29, 2014

#258

I don’t think there will be an industry at all. Like I said, film will survive with hobbyists, guys in garages and workshops, who will ultimately have to make their own celluloid.

***

I think film will die—completely—before the technology that allows a hobbyist to do that in his garage becomes available.

It’s a testament to how numb we get to exactly how advanced technologies are when we start thinking of film as almost this stone age craft compared to digital. Film is an amazing technology. It’s incredible that we can get these amazing images out of silver halides suspended in an emulsion. Simply amazing.

268. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

Marvel is going forward with Thor 3, in the same week they announced plans for Captain America 3!

===================================

Marvel Senior VP Craig Kyle to Co-Write Third ‘Thor’ Film With Christopher Yost

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/marvel-senior-vp-craig-kyle-675523

‘Captain America 3′ Takes Shape at Marvel

http://variety.com/2014/film/news/anthony-joe-russo-captain-america-3-1201073078/

269. Phil - January 29, 2014

@266. Sorry, I had assumed the news channel was in discussion. My bad.

270. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

@269. Phil

No problem :)

271. Cygnus-X1 - January 29, 2014

260. MJ – January 29, 2014

…SW 1977 did not even come close in inventing the whole master-apprentice prodigal son and father-needs redemption thing. Comparing ST-2009 to SW-1999 with the assumption that SW-1977 is somehow “more original” is a fools errand.

I never said that SW invented any of the archetypes which it makes use of.

Neither did I say that STIV is more original than ST09, though it probably is, but that wasn’t my point.

My point was that the hero’s journey, master/pupil relationship, and sundry mini-themes in ST09 are relatively superficial and shallow, whereas the ones in SWIV were much deeper, richer and more developed, i.e. more “meaningful.”

272. MJ - January 29, 2014

@268.

Well at least that precludes them from stealing the Trek 3 story like they did with STID to develop the story for Winter Solider.

273. MJ - January 29, 2014

“My point was that the hero’s journey, master/pupil relationship, and sundry mini-themes in ST09 are relatively superficial and shallow, whereas the ones in SWIV were much deeper, richer and more developed, i.e. more “meaningful.”

I simply don’t agree with this. Sure, when you include the characterization from ESP that was severely lacking in EP4, then you might say that. But EP4 by itself — and I saw it by itself when in premiered in 1977 without the benefit of seeing the much deeper ESP — is actual a weaker hero’s journey (or a wash at best) than Kirk and Spock in Trek 2009. Kenobi-Luke was obviously more powerful than Pike-Kirk as the story necessitated that, but then Kirk-Spock was significantly more powerful thank Luke-Solo as well.

Again, SW superficially may seem like a better epic because we have all seen ESP and ROTJ, but by itself in 1977, I thought it was a tad overrated. ESB is such a better movie than SW.

274. MJ - January 29, 2014

meant ESB above, not ESP…lol.

ESB = The Empire Strikes Back

275. Vultan - January 29, 2014

#267

Oh, I agree. I still prefer the look of film, particularly the emulsions used in the ’70s and ’80s, over digital. I’ve no idea if someone could make their own film celluloid at this time, though once Kodak finally closes shop I’m sure (I hope) their equipment finds a good home.

It would take some diehard enthusiasts to take the torch. I had a photography class ten years ago. Did many hours in the dark room, mixing those smelly emulsions, and half of the time under the red light and squinting at prints, all that stuff. I enjoyed it, but would take a special person to keep at it.

276. Vultan - January 29, 2014

I felt like a moleman by the end of the semester. For students of light, old school photographers sure didn’t get much of it!

277. T'Cal - January 29, 2014

In the first film, the evil baddie had a really big ship. In the second, he had a really, really big ship. In ST3 he needs a really, really, really big ship!

278. dmduncan - January 29, 2014

276. Vultan – January 29, 2014

I know how that is. back in my college days I worked in 2 of Manhattan’s largest photo labs as a mural printer. basically, I worked inside of a giant camera and I could make prints as large as 6 feet tall by 20 feet long! It was fun! All photochemical print material. The processes are all basically the same for motion picture film so I learned a LOT on the technical side as a budding filmmaker about my craft. Nothing teaches you how a lens works better than when you are working inside of a giant camera.

279. Vultan - January 29, 2014

#278

Inside a giant camera? Awesome! Must’ve been quite an experience. Hmm, think you may have a fantasy script somewhere in there, DM. Something like Scorsese’s Hugo perhaps.

Anyway, I remember back in 2004 my photography instructor being in complete denial about digital taking over, even though the writing was engraved in the wall.

I had a similar experience a few years later working in the ad department of a newspaper. My boss said she thought printed newspapers could survive in the digital age. Then she turned back to her computer and checked Yahoo for the news!

Yeah, I can’t blame them for holding on, but eventually you have to let go—and embrace the next thing before its obsolete. ;-)

280. Ahmed - January 29, 2014

Interesting article from Empire magazine about movies trend in 2013. Here are Star Trek related items from their list.

===================
Unlikely Film Trends Of 2013
Did you notice the more unusual themes of this year’s films?

People often notice the obvious stuff – the fact that there are a lot of comic-book movies these days, or the way animated films seem to be proliferating. But have you noticed the slightly weirder trends in filmmaking this year? Here are the ones we noticed – and beware some spoilers!

1) HALF-EXPLODED MOONS

Seen in: Man Of Steel, Star Trek Into Darkness, Oblivion

3) SPACESHIPS CRASHING INTO CITIES

Seen in: Thor: The Dark World, Star Trek Into Darkness, G.I. Joe: Retaliation (sort of), Man Of Steel, Pacific Rim (sort of)

9) LONDON GETS IT IN THE NECK

Seen in: G.I. Joe: Retaliation, Star Trek Into Darkness, Fast & Furious 6, Thor: The Dark World, Closed Circuit

13) POSTERS OF A FALLEN HERO

Seen in: Iron Man 3, Man Of Steel, Star Trek Into Darkness, Gravity, All Is Lost, The Hangover: Part 3, Pacific Rim

15) CURES FOR DEATH

Seen in: Star Trek Into Darkness, Elysium, Iron Man 3, The Wolverine, The Lone Ranger, Warm Bodies, World War Z

http://www.empireonline.com/features/unlikely-film-trends-2013/

281. Vultan - January 29, 2014

#280

So much sameness in Hollywood. Sad.

Seeing Praxis in STID bugged me. It goes from being this big, intergalactic plot point that drives the entire story of TUC… to being a background painting?

282. MJ - January 29, 2014

@281

It was no more dumb than the concept in TUC that the Klingon Empire, who has 23rd century technology and numerous worlds, can’t do a little air cleaning to take care of a moon explosion…that was just plain silly! It was a made up scenario to compare the Klingons to the Soviet Union.

283. Vultan - January 29, 2014

#282

Yes, I agree. STID was a collection of a lot of dumb bits from other movies.

;-)

284. MJ - January 29, 2014

“Also, with regard to Lawrence of Arabia, you’re talking about an original film shoot which was later transferred to digital. The recorded music analogy would be AAD or ADD vs. DDD. To my ears (and I am a very skilled listener), ADD sounds substantially better than DDD, but not necessarily better than AAD. There is information captured in the original analogue recording (or filming) which might transfer well to digital, but which would not be initially captured by a digital recording (or shoot).”

Yea, but that is not an apples to apples comparison. Instead, imagine that AAD would degrage over time, and not sound that great 50 years later, but DDD sounds as good as day 1.

Thanks though for you and DM for bringing up Barry Lyndon. I have never seen that movie, and have just ordered in on Blu-Ray based on this conversation. Looking forward to it!

285. Kenji - January 29, 2014

@210

Marta, thanks for your interesting thoughts.

I do see an older and wiser Kirk and a complex Spock.

Regarding Kirk, his genius is maybe an excuse Starfleet has for pandering to what must have been a worldwide outpouring of gratitude to Kirk by confirming his brevet rank despite being literally sophomoric at Starfleet U. Of course he entered as a somewhat older cadet (not as old as McCoy – I would freaking die if we get a new character in Joanna, his daughter, alluded to one of those making-of Trek books. Not only is that dorky to the max, Trek lacks female characterization. Similarly, let’s get Chapel and Rand, as substantial, intelligent officers).

Spock. Of course Spock is in many ways the most complex and interesting Trek character, always has been. Gets storylines about lost loves, unrequited crushes, biological imperatives to Get It On.

Therefore, one really can make a case for Spock as being Trek’s most human (as in emotionally investigated) character, as Kirk pointed out (somewhat dickishly, I thought) in TWOK.

Spock, like most if not all Vulcans (does Sybok exist in the Abramsverse? I kind of hope not), is basically pretending not to have emotions 24/7 due to cultural norms. Underneath he’s constantly seething. (I love the latitude that Zachery Quinto has been given to play this dynamic.) Vulcans are insane! Notwithstanding their (redeeming) rationality, predictability, and practice of excellence.

I have no problems with Spock being kickass in a fight. Vulcans should be great survivalists, considering their crappy old planet. (Too soon?)

286. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

273. MJ – January 29, 2014

I simply don’t agree with this. Sure, when you include the characterization from ESP that was severely lacking in EP4, then you might say that. But EP4 by itself — and I saw it by itself when in premiered in 1977 without the benefit of seeing the much deeper ESP — is actual a weaker hero’s journey (or a wash at best) than Kirk and Spock in Trek 2009. Kenobi-Luke was obviously more powerful than Pike-Kirk as the story necessitated that, but then Kirk-Spock was significantly more powerful thank Luke-Solo as well.

I agree with you that the Kirk/Spock relationship in ST09 is deeper and more detailed than the Kirk/Pike relationship in that movie, but it’s a very different kind of relationship than Luke/Solo in Ep.4.

Kirk/Spock are peers in direct competition for leadership. Luke/Solo are different. Solo, at the beginning, is a mercenary helping Luke purely for pecuniary reward who, by the end of the story, has developed a stronger conscience, learned a lesson, changed and grown as a person. Solo actually has a character arc, as simple as it is—he learns a very clearly defined lesson throughout the course of the story (as does Luke). And the Luke/Solo relationship is actually more complicated than the Kirk/Spock relationship, which kind of supports my point.

Even though the Kirk/Spock relationship was actually one of the stronger, less shallow elements of ST09, it’s still just basically just a peer rivalry that gets resolved after Kirk gains command by tricking Spock and eventually earning his respect. I’m not sure that Kirk actually learns much from Spock, except maybe to respect him more in spite of the Vulcan’s uptight attitude.

Compare that with the fascinating new world which Luke opens his mind to under the tutelage of Ben in Ep.4. Yes, we learn a lot more about The Force in Ep.5, which I agree is clearly a better movie, but the introduction to The Force in Ep.4 goes a long way:

“The force is an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together.”

“Use The Force, Luke…let go…trust me…stretch out with your feelings…”

Pretty thought-provoking, heady stuff. Even now, I could easily lose myself for two hours (or more) discussing the implications of The Force from just those few passages. And, in Ep.4, Luke actually uses what he learns from Ben to defeat the villain and save the day.

Does Kirk use what he learns from Spock to save the day in ST09? Not really. Kirk already knows what to do; he just learns what amounts to a trick (from Spock Prime) of how to get around younger Spock and wrest command of the Enterprise from him. Does Kirk use a lesson taught him by Pike to save the day? No, he doesn’t do that either. Kirk in ST09 is basically a know-it-all. He’s got all the tools that he needs to save the day by the time he gets aboard the Enterprise early in the story, and he doesn’t learn any particular lesson through the events of the story—at least, none that we are shown in detail or that is meaningfully treated.

So, on one side of our ledger we have Ben teaching Luke about The Force.

And on the other side we have…(see what I mean?)

287. Jim Nightshade - January 30, 2014

so have any of you with the new x box one said to it “Play star trek into darkness” with a kinda english accent?

288. Red Shirt Diaries - January 30, 2014

Cygnus and MJ,

You are both completing missing the obvious comparison to Kenobi. It’s not Pike; rather, it’s Spock Prime. Spock Prime, through the mind-meld and mentor-ship of nuKirk,brings together nuKirk and nuSpock in a emotionally charged and meaningful way — cementing the start of their legendary relationship for years to come. And like Kenobi, who lost everything, Spock Prime lost his universe, felt responsible for not saving Romulus, and then was a part to the discussion of Vulcan — becoming the tragic sad sort of hero and mentor to nuKirk that Kenobi was to Luke. Kenobi taught Luke the force; Spock Prime taught Kirk to love nuSpock as his life’s greatest friend, even though Spock doesn’t fully get that until STID.

And Cygnus, wow man, I kind of feel bad for your, because you seemed to missed the whole growth piece in Trek 2009 about nuKirk and nuSpock beginning to get to know each other and beginning to work together. And you also seemed to have missed the emotional growth of nuSpock, aided by his father after his mother’s death and Kirk getting the emotional response out of him (again, engineered by a Kenobi-like nuSpock. Note here that in the prime universe, Spock didn’t experience that sort of emotional growth until after the V’ger episode. I found this to me a very moving and emotionally powerful element of Trek 2009.

MJ, you are wrong here man. There are a lot of similarities here between Trek 2009 and Star Wars. But they are ones to be celebrated between these two great epic movies that bookend two generations of fans.

289. Jim Nightshade - January 30, 2014

marja hope you are right about nimoy….

290. Red Shirt Diaries - January 30, 2014

Cygnus,

One additional point in your comparison. You said:

” ‘Use The Force, Luke…let go…trust me…stretch out with your feelings…’ So, on one side of our ledger we have Ben teaching Luke about The Force. And on the other side we have…(see what I mean?)”

That’s an unfair comparison, as you are comparing a science fiction show that has been historically agnostic and non-mystical to a series of fantasy-like movies with mystical powers of good and evil. So you’ve rigged this comparison for Star Trek 2009 to fail here…in fact, Star Trek in general can’t compete with this comparison the way that you have presented it.

“The Force” versus the Starfleet Motto…(now, see what I mean?) :-)

291. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

Red Shirt,

Outstanding posts. The growth of Spock, and the journey of Prime Spock, in Star Trek 2009, are to me some of the most powerful, meaningful and thoughtful Spock moments in Star Trek history. They are right up there with Spock’s death scene in WOK, Spock’s emotional awakening at the end of TMP, and Spock in Amok Time.

Best Spock movie ever for us fans.

292. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

“That’s an unfair comparison, as you are comparing a science fiction show that has been historically agnostic and non-mystical to a series of fantasy-like movies with mystical powers of good and evil. So you’ve rigged this comparison for Star Trek 2009 to fail here…in fact, Star Trek in general can’t compete with this comparison the way that you have presented it.”

Agreed. Star Trek can never win that comparison, as “the game is fixed”. It’s like trying to compare Superman to Steve McGarrett just because they are both crime fighters…McGarrett can never compete with Superman and his (let’s be honest) near-magical powers.

293. Garak's Pride - January 30, 2014

Guys,

I agree on the force versus Trek. That is an apples to oranges comparison

It’s nonsensical to try to hold up Star Trek storytelling to the mysticism of the force, which is essentially all good and evil, all energy and matter, and God probably thrown in as well for good measure. How in the hell can Trek ever outshine that? It’s impossible.

294. Marja - January 30, 2014

284, Kenji, Sure, I think Spock would definitely kick ass in a fight [he did a job on Khan]. I think as a Vulcan he would be efficient, quick, cause little pain to his foe [he would employ the Vulcan neck pinch, AKA "FSNP," where possible], using effective Vulcan martial arts to quickly disable an opponent. To the point where the Humans around him would be “Wow – how’d you do that so FAST?” I guess with Khan he was a bit overmatched, I just had a real problem watching my beloved Spock in such a long and brutal fight. Quinto and Cumby “sold” it well.

The society of Vulcan seems insane until you remember Surak saved his passionate people from violence and killing each other by imposing a societal structure of logical interaction. Spock, as a half-human, has a “higher load” of feelings because the human side is more undisciplined. In other words he has a harder time than full Vulcans.

Hee! I, too, thought Kirk’s tribute to Spock as “the most human” – while moving in the moment – was a bit of a backhanded compliment … one could almost see Spock’s katra raising a ghostly eyebrow and remarking, “Really, if you’re going to be insulting, Captain …!” [as he did to McCoy once upon a TOS ep]

295. Marja - January 30, 2014

Kenji “Regarding Kirk, his genius is maybe an excuse Starfleet has for pandering to what must have been a worldwide outpouring of gratitude to Kirk by confirming his brevet rank despite being literally sophomoric at Starfleet U. Of course he entered as a somewhat older cadet (not as old as McCoy – I would freaking die if we get a new character in Joanna, his daughter, alluded to one of those making-of Trek books. Not only is that dorky to the max, Trek lacks female characterization. Similarly, let’s get Chapel and Rand, as substantial, intelligent officers)”

Re: Kirk, I agree with your assessment; however, I think he was a genius in most of his classes, and as he pointed out, the KM test was rather a cheat, to which he responded by cheating. It wasn’t correct behavior for sure, but he did make a valid point. So did Spock, though. I’ve never personally “bought” the whole KM thing, tho’ I suppose cadets would be sworn to secrecy. Otherwise, the Academy being full of young military folk, word would spread like wildfire, the tale would be told to the next class, &c. Kirk’s head-turning with women was rather public for my taste, but I think he was probably a friendly sort of date who made the inevitable pass, and would take a turndown with grace and kindness.

I wouldn’t die seeing Joanna, but I would cheer! Maybe she could be a psychologist ;-) … I agree about Chapel and Rand [though I’d like to see Rand do more than be the “Captain’s steward” or bringing him things to sign – by the 23rd century I would hope Yeomen could perform a number of functions. [They actually do quite a bit today, at least in the USCG.]

Alas, we probably won’t see any of these three characters in a 2-hour movie; this would have to wait until a TV series. Chapel may get a throwaway line in the next one …. hey, get Christina Hendricks, she’ll give McCoy a run for his money and would be age-appropriate too, for a bit of sexual tension …

Since Netflix is now the leading stream netcaster, I would vote for putting it on Netflix after broadcast on CBS [a necessary evil, I suppose].

296. Marja - January 30, 2014

285 Cygnus, “Even though the Kirk/Spock relationship was actually one of the stronger, less shallow elements of ST09, it’s still just basically just a peer rivalry that gets resolved after Kirk gains command by tricking Spock and eventually earning his respect. I’m not sure that Kirk actually learns much from Spock, except maybe to respect him more in spite of the Vulcan’s uptight attitude.”

Agreed that the Kirk and Spock relationship was a strong element of ST09. As another member pointed out, the fact that Elder Spock mind-melded with young Kirk probably gave Kirk a hella lot more than just a trick to wrest commannd from Spock. I thought the latter was a cheesy thing to do; I would have been fine with Kirk, promoted to First Officer, convincing Spock to dare and do the derring-do, but I guess story-wise he just HAD to end up captain of the Enterprise by the end of Trek1. I would rather have seen him grow under Spock’s leadership, to be awarded the captaincy after Spock refuses it. OH WELL.

Kirk learns a hella lot from Spock in STID. Kirk saw that the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few, and sacrificed to achieve their safety.

297. Marja - January 30, 2014

287 Red Shirt, YES. You are right, Elder Spock was Kirk’s mentor [and Spock’s too, at the end. Pike was the one who got Kirk there, but Prime Spock was the mentor.

Agreed 290, Disco, ST2009 was a damned good movie for Spock fans. I gasped and teared up when Vulcan was destroyed, and loved every scene of Spock’s interactions with the crew, his father, and Uhura.

At the same time, there were plot holes, ginormous plot holes ….

298. Ronnie B. - January 30, 2014

#38 wrote: “Oh I’m sorry I didn’t realize you had personally talked to CBS or Mr Dorn about the seriousness of his Trek TV pitch. So I guess the multiple news reports about there being interest at CBS in Dorn’s pitch were just CBS punking the fans then.”

That was a dumb comment. There were no news reports of CBS being interested. None. There was just a lot of commenting from Dorn that he wanted to make it. CBS has not shown ANY hint that they’re interested, nor has the media claimed otherwise. Dorn’s project has zero chance of ever being made. That’s just common sense.

299. dmduncan - January 30, 2014

I agree with what some are saying about the ST/SW comparison, but I wonder if they know what they are really saying?

Problem is not that ST has no soul, compared to SW, but that the soul it has is not very big.

That is THE single biggest reason why ST has been unable to produce the kind of fanbase that SW has despite being around so much longer.

There is no real evil in Star Trek. There’s just some poor guy who’s either misunderstood and/or who’s been so screwed that he’s acting out.

Lol. It’s BS. True evil is not “understandable” from a good point of view. Consequently, the biggest battles of human existence are nonexistent in Star Trek, whereas Star Wars is built around the fight that Star Trek pretends isn’t there.

300. gort - January 30, 2014

Here’s my wish: make the movie so bad that it will flop so we can get rid of that obnoxious abramsverse.

301. Who cares - January 30, 2014

@297. You obviously didn’t see the articles reporting on Dorn’s meetings with CBS, I did, there were a series of articles on mainstream news sites all through last summer and nearly every single one mentioned that there was some interest in Dorn’s pitch at CBS, obviously not from Mooves, given his well known opinion on Trek, but from others at CBS. For craps sake Bob Orci mentioned right here on Trekmovie that there was interest in Dorn’s pitch.

So in conclusion, your comment is dumb sir, not mine.

302. Ahmed - January 30, 2014

Short interviews with Abrams & Bob during TCA press tour.

=================================
Star Trek Director J.J. Abrams and Writer Roberto Orci on the Star Trek Into Darkness Khan Secrecy and the Benefits of the Mystery Box

“Fans of the series are aware that he’s either Khan or not.”

J.J. Abrams seems to be in the midst of reassessing how he feels about the depth of mystery that has so often surrounded his projects. In a recent interview, the director seemed bemused by the “extreme” secrecy attached to his work on Star Wars: Episode VII, laughing that his staff had blacked out the windows of his office so he could work on the script.

Over the last few months, Abrams has indicated that, upon reflection, he felt that keeping Benedict Cumberbatch’s role in Star Trek Into Darkness a secret was perhaps not the right approach. Fans began speculating that the actor was portraying a rebooted version of Khan very early into production, which, indeed, he was.

“I don’t try to maintain the mystery box,” Abrams reflected. Adding that the Ted talk that he did about the idea of the mystery box was really referring to a practical approach he takes when working on stories.

“But I do think it’s a mistake to ruin stories for audiences,” the director said. “In that one [Star Trek], fans of the series are aware that he’s either Khan or not, so it was probably a mistake not to just say he was Khan and get past it. But the problem in the movie is that there’s an hour in the film that the characters don’t know, so I thought, ‘If the audience was told will it ruin the experience?’ But the truth is it probably wouldn’t have made much of a difference in that regard.”
…………………….

Also at the TCA tour was Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness co-writer Roberto Orci.

We also addressed Abrams backtracking on Khan, and Cumberbatch jokingly calling the director an d***head for making them lie for all those months (see the video above),

“I do agree with him that you want to preserve the storytelling experience for an audience,” Orci said. “You don’t want to give away twists, and we designed it as a twist. Alex [Kurtzman, Orci's writing and producing partner] and I, though, like to be very transparent about the process and things that are going on. I shouldn’t even say… It was a mistake. I think it’s easy to Monday morning quarterback. Like I said, we can’t blame anybody or him for wanting to maintain or preserve the integrity of the story for an audience.

It’s funny that Cumberbatch said that. [Laughs] I will point out that online I never lied about it. I think I was the who said, ‘Yes, it’s that kind of character,’ and, ‘No, it’s not that one.’ When Bones [Karl Urban] went out and misled everyone… [Laughs]. That’s the one rule I have with the audience; I’ll misdirect, and I’m happy to pull some tricks, but I don’t lie to the audience.”

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2014/01/29/star-wars-director-jj-abrams-and-star-treks-roberto-orci-on-the-star-trek-into-darkness-khan-secrecy-and-the-benefits-of-the-mystery-box

303. Jack - January 30, 2014

” There were no news reports of CBS being interested. None. There was just a lot of commenting from Dorn that he wanted to make it. CBS has not shown ANY hint that they’re interested, nor has the media claimed otherwise. Dorn’s project has zero chance of ever being made. That’s just common sense.”

Agreed. These stories come from Dorn. He also thought Trek fans might fork over $750,000 on kickstarter so he could direct, and star in, a romantic comedy to prove to the networks/studios that Trek fans will pay to see him and other former Trek stars in anything, not just TNG or scifi (his words). Good on him for trying — but I really don’t think it will happen. Takei’s ’90s Excelsior campaign has a better shot of becoming a show (also zero, but a stronger zero).

——-

“Like I said, we can’t blame anybody or him for wanting to maintain or preserve the integrity of the story for an audience.”

You could have preserved the integrity of the story by not squeezing in characters that had nothing to do with the story. Zing!

I’ve never heard Bob ay he regrets a choice — it could be that he doesn’t think he makes mistakes, which is fine. It’s either blame JJ, or say that he overreacted because fans were being morons, or etc. Now that I read what I just wrote, it sounds mean.

304. Jack - January 30, 2014

BTW, I don’t think the secrecy and publicity were a problem with STID. Why would you want leaks months in advance? Sure, Trek fans here want to be part of production and marketing — but that’s just fanboy/girl overzealousness and entitlement (and a belief in the exaggeration that fans somehow magically resurrected Trek — Roddenberry engineered that letter-writing campaign…).

If every single person who comes to these sites had boycotted STID, it still would have done incredibly well.

305. Ahmed - January 30, 2014

@ 301. Jack

“I’ve never heard Bob ay he regrets a choice — it could be that he doesn’t think he makes mistakes, which is fine.”

I think it has more to do with the fact that his movies are bringing in million of dollars to the studios, which will give some people a sense of being right all the time.

306. Ahmed - January 30, 2014

@302. Jack

“If every single person who comes to these sites had boycotted STID, it still would have done incredibly well.”

Yep!

307. crazydaystrom - January 30, 2014

298. dmduncan

Fine post dm. You made me about a few things Trek I hadn’t before. Or in ways I’d not before. I’m mostly in agreement with you, though not 100%-

“Problem is not that ST has no soul, compared to SW, but that the soul it has is not very big”.

Debatable but perhaps.

“That is THE single biggest reason why ST has been unable to produce the kind of fanbase that SW has…”

Again perhaps. But for me there’s not a ‘single biggest reason’ but a combination of two reasons that explains the differences in the fanbases-

1) Star Wars’ use of archetypes cause Lucas’ stories to resonate so very strongly, cross-culturally, with the psyche that one is predisposed to appreciate them. Programmed to, essentially. With Trek the intellect isn’t bypassed, for lack of a better term, the way it is with Wars. Trek’s use of archetypal characters, for the most part, haven’t been as unsubtle and in your face.

2) Wars is ‘prettier, louder and more flashy’ which again doesn’t require much thought to appreciate.

The differences between the franchises have been lessened in these areas with the JJ Treks.

Now I’m definitely not saying all Wars fans are non-intellectual and not as smart as Trek fans because I know that is not the case. And Lucas’ use of archetypes was brilliant, at least originally. It obviously has served Star Wars well.

308. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

#305

Hey, you seemed to miss that DM Duncan’s post was primarily sarcastic. At the end he admits that these arguments are all weak:

“Lol. It’s BS. True evil is not “understandable” from a good point of view.”

At least that is how I interpreted the post?

309. Omni - January 30, 2014

Would someone please show these writers to the airlock?!?

310. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

#304

No true, the volume of people that hits this sites right before and during the release of a Trek movie is in the hundreds of thousands of people.

Now, it you guys are just referring to people that post here like us, then that would be more believable.Or if you are referring to the number of people who visit this site daily during these slow periods like now (about 4000 per day), then that would be more believable as well.

But immediately before and during the first few weeks of a Trek movie release, we are talking (with 30,000 to 50,000 hits per day), about over a several week period, hundreds of thousands of unique invdividuals visiting the sites. If all those people boycotted STID, the movie would have made substantially less revenue. For example, 300,000 x $12 = $36M…worldwide revenue would have dropped 8%.

311. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

…and if you factor in multiple viewings, and say apply a conservative 50% factor to that (i.e, assume that on average each of these Trek fans sees the movie 1.5 times), then you get a $54M loss — a 12% reduction in revenue.

312. Ahmed - January 30, 2014

@308. DiscoSpock

I think Jack was talking about the active users on the site & I was agreeing with him on that point.

“But immediately before and during the first few weeks of a Trek movie release, we are talking (with 30,000 to 50,000 hits per day), about over a several week period, hundreds of thousands of unique invdividuals visiting the sites.”

I wasn’t aware of that. I guess that number dropped dramatically after AP went AWOL & there were no updates for weeks.

313. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

@312. Yea, Ahmed, you right concerning active users today. Only 4000 per day, and probably a lot of them are the same people who check several times a week. So maybe only…this is a guess….10,000 unique users of the site right now per week?

314. SoonerDave - January 30, 2014

The only reasons SW and ST are compared *at all* is because they are each a) set in space, and b) have the word “Star” in their title.

Seriously.

To compare them beyond that is inherently a vain effort. Trek was designed to tell out-of-the-box episodic television dramas on a weekly basis with a postulated future of a fairly specific extrapolation of mankind; SW is a space western, quite literally set in a generic “a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away,” that neither implies future nor past – and with the good guys fighting the bad guys with lasers on x-wings rather than shotguns, arrows, and horses. And this is not to deride Star Wars; its simply the very essence of a space western. And westerns used to rule the day in the theaters, so it should hardly be surprising that a contemporary incarnation holds significant contemporary appeal.

And the fact that Trek is, by virtue of its DNA, *not* a “space western*, it receives a lot of mainstream criticism when it a) isn’t enough of one, or b) when it is too much of one, but it aspires to be *neither*. When it isn’t enough of one, and arguably tries too hard to stay to its dramatic, storytelling roots, a more action-oriented critic gripes because he’s waited too long to see someone in a ship get blown up. When it is too much of one, the Trek fandom gets frustrated becuase TOO MANY guys in ships get blown up.

The key here is, despite their similarities, despite their spaced-based origins, to realize the two fundamentally aren’t comparable. SW is often great at what it does, and ST has often been great at what it does. Wishing either were more like the other is to tilt at windmills.

315. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

288. Red Shirt Diaries – January 30, 2014

You are both completing missing the obvious comparison to Kenobi. It’s not Pike; rather, it’s Spock Prime.

No, I agree with you there. I thought I touched on it. But Spock Prime really just teaches Kirk a trick for how to wrest command of the Enterprise from Alt Spock. That falls quite short of Luke learning The Force, a whole new worldview which Luke uses to complete his hero’s journey, from Ben in Ep.4

And Cygnus, wow man, I kind of feel bad for your, because you seemed to missed the whole growth piece in Trek 2009 about nuKirk and nuSpock beginning to get to know each other and beginning to work together.

What did they learn about each other, other than Kirk earning respect from Spock by tricking him? I think that people tend to think there’s more to ST09 than there really is because the fast-pacing makes you feel as if things have happened that really haven’t. They sort of imply learning and growth by how the characters dispositions toward each other have changed later in the story, but we never actually see much learning or growth in terms of a tangible “lesson” that the characters learn. Spock learns respect for the upstart who bested him. Kirk just keeps on being Kirk.

290. Red Shirt Diaries – January 30, 2014

That’s an unfair comparison, as you are comparing a science fiction show that has been historically agnostic and non-mystical to a series of fantasy-like movies with mystical powers of good and evil.

I can see your point there, but it’s not even necessary to consider the mysticism of The Force. My point was simply that Ben imparts to Luke an intriguing, clearly defined worldview/school-of-thought/ideology which Luke then uses to save the day. That this worldview is, in itself, intriguing, is a bonus. Compare this now with what Spock Prime teaches Kirk. What does he teach him besides how the trick the younger, alt-universe version of himself? Yes, there is substance in the theme of Spock Prime failing to acknowledge his loss and the emotional consequences thereof, but it really doesn’t have much to do with the master/student relationship of Kirk/SpockPrime—the whole thing is really all about Spock Prime’s lessons learned, which he shares with Kirk in a sort of utilitarian confessional that is in both their interests—and it’s not really Kirk learning something that changes him as a person and helps him save the day, like Luke in Ep.4. (Also, this very theme of the Vulcan whose mother has died, on Vulcan, no less, failing to acknowledge the loss and becoming emotionally compromised as a result thereof, was lifted from Enterprise and T’Pol going through the same thing in Ep. 4.10 “Daedalus.”)

But, I would agree that Spock is the character who goes through the most growth in the story. Kirk, as I said, is a know-it-all who doesn’t really learn much of anything after he’s decided to join Star Fleet (after the pep talk from Pike) at the beginning of the story.

316. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

296. Marja – January 30, 2014

Kirk learns a hella lot from Spock in STID. Kirk saw that the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few, and sacrificed to achieve their safety.

I agree that one would assume Kirk to have learned more from Spock Prime as a consequence of the mind meld…but, again, that’s all we get in ST09—assumptions that we might logically make.

The master/student relationship is not explored. It’s not really treated. There’s no richness there, no detail, no big ideas imparted from Spock Prime to Kirk. Kirk is not changed as a person in any substantial way from the meld. He doesn’t come out of it with a new worldview or anything. This is what I mean by “shallow.” There are elements of ST09 which have the appearance of being deep, but upon closer scrutiny they are really just superficial.

317. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

299. dmduncan – January 30, 2014

I agree with what some are saying about the ST/SW comparison, but I wonder if they know what they are really saying?

Problem is not that ST has no soul, compared to SW, but that the soul it has is not very big.

That is THE single biggest reason why ST has been unable to produce the kind of fanbase that SW has despite being around so much longer.

There is no real evil in Star Trek. There’s just some poor guy who’s either misunderstood and/or who’s been so screwed that he’s acting out.

Lol. It’s BS. True evil is not “understandable” from a good point of view. Consequently, the biggest battles of human existence are nonexistent in Star Trek, whereas Star Wars is built around the fight that Star Trek pretends isn’t there.

Well said.

And you raise an interesting point about whether evil, per se, is “understandable” from a “good” point of view. I am reluctant to reference SW Ep.3, but that question is also raised by Anakin during his climactic duel with Obi Won, “From my point of view, it’s the Jedi who are evil.” It’s a very compelling question, and one that has almost nothing to do with ST09. As you said, the villain of that story (and STID) is presented as little more than a resentful malcontent acting out.

318. TUP - January 30, 2014

In retrospect, I would have chaned a few things about 09. Such as:

– Make the Kelvin the Enterprise 1701 with Captain April.

– Make Kirk obsessed with succeeding in Starfleet rather than not wanting to join initially. Make his “weakness” that he feels compelled to follow in his fathers footsteps but feels like he could never live up to his heroics. The whiney bad boy Kirk just didnt ring true and his change happened to easily.

– Make the Kobyashi Maru actually interesting. After WOK I imagined Kirk re-programming it so it was “possible to win”, as he said, not re-programmed so it was “impossible to lose”. I still imagined Kirk, on the edge of his seat, out manouvering the enemy, using his smarts and tactical knowledge to save the day. That scene in 09 was a huge disappointment and you see why he’d be in trouble rather than given a commendation like stated in WOK.

It would also make Spock curious and intrigued about Kirk rather than angry and bitter. Seeing Spock’s interest in Kirk piqued by his admiration for Kirk’s ability would have rang more true.

– Kirk should have received the aforementioned commendation at the end of the movie, not the ridiculous promotion. End the film with Pike in command. I imagine a scene with Kirk sitting in the chair when Spock enters the bridge and “reminds” him he’s not assigned to the Enterprise. You have that moment with Pine, looking like the Kirk we know, in the chair for a moment as he (and we) consider what will be…Kirk stands up, congrats Spock on his assignment as Science officer and reveals he’s assigned to the Farragut.

Movie ends with them all going their separate ways and we know we will see them all together again.

also…no Chekov. I mean, what a glaring stupid stupid mistake.

319. crazydaystrom - January 30, 2014

314. SoonerDave
” SW is often great at what it does, and ST has often been great at what it does. Wishing either were more like the other is to tilt at windmills.”

How would you characterize a creator making one more like the other? (I’m looking at YOU Abrams!)

320. Frederick - January 30, 2014

#318 TUP
What you wrote right there would have made the movie a lot closer to what it should have been. Just those few things!

Why is it so hard for the writers to understand what you wrote using common sense?

And for the record, writers, please, no more re-makes or “echoes” just do an original, engaging story using the characters we know and love!

321. dmduncan - January 30, 2014

317. Cygnus-X1 – January 30, 2014

Luke’s opposite is not Darth Vader. His opposite is the incorrigibly evil Palpatine.

Vader is like the great mass of humanity who can be see-sawed back and forth between good and evil, those who are on the wrong side while thinking they are right.

Luke and Palpatine each know exactly who and what they are. It’s the great mass of people in the middle like Vader, fought over by the Lukes and Palpatines, who are confused about who is good and who is evil.

322. NuFan - January 30, 2014

Congratulations to Orci and Kurtzman on launching their new deal at CBS Television Studios with Identity for CBS outlet The CW.

Now that you’re in there, remind them about Star Trek.

323. Garak's Pride - January 30, 2014

Cygnus X-1,

You claim that SW has all these meaningful teaching lessons by Kenobi, while Star Trek relies on Prime Spock to resort to tricking people to get what he wants done. OK, interesting hypothesis; let’s examine this a bit further on the Star Wars side.

Hmm, correct me if I am am wrong, but didn’t Kenobi (and Yoda) specifically and deliberately deceive Luke into deliberately not knowing that Vader was his father so that Luke would tow the Jedi-trainee line and learn the jedi way in that way that they needed him so so that they could them even the score with their old enemy, Emperor Palpatine?

That’s not exactly my idea of this sort of honest Kumbaya-like learning experience that you claim is superior in Star Wars to Star Trek 2009. In fact, it sounds a hell of a lot more unethical and problematic than having Spock Prime ask Kirk to elicit an emotional response out of young Kirk.

Have your really thought this through, Cygness-X-1? Because I am a bit amazed that you missed this huge problem of honesty and fairness in the teachings by Kenobi to Luke? A skeptical person here could readily claim that Kenobi and Yoda were not only tricking Luke, but essentially using him as a pawn to settle and old score.

324. Garak's Pride - January 30, 2014

Re: DM Duncan

“Luke’s opposite is not Darth Vader. His opposite is the incorrigibly evil Palpatine. Vader is like the great mass of humanity who can be see-sawed back and forth between good and evil, those who are on the wrong side while thinking they are right.”

Good point, Duncan. Palpatine is Hitler, Luke is Churchill, and Vader is Erwin Rommel. And Lando is Charles Lindbergh.

325. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

@317

I tool DM’s post to be somewhat sarcastic and ironic, and not the criticism of Star Trek in general that you seemed to get from it. I think you misinterpreted his meaning in that post.

I think it’s premature for you to “cha-ching” here that DM is really saying that he prefers a good and evil Star Wars type story to anything that Star Trek can provide.

Maybe DM can clear this up?

326. TrekMadeMeWonder - January 30, 2014

318. TUP

That was a very well reasoned and thoughtful critique of ST09.
Well done, if I might say so.

322. NuFan

I 2nd that!

327. K-7 - January 30, 2014

@318

Kirk’s father died and he was raised in a single family home. Howe uninteresting would it have been for him to simply behave as Kirk Prime did and just have a normal childhood and join Starfleet as the original?

That completely defeats the whole point of making this a bit of different Kirk, with a different background and challenges, but who eventually will get to the point where he is the great leader of Prime Kirk.

That’s the whole point of the nuKirk story, and I wouldn’t change it for a bit, other than that dumb-ass threesome that they threw into STID.

If these characters are just the same as the old ones, then that seems boring and repetitive to me.

328. K-7 - January 30, 2014

“A skeptical person here could readily claim that Kenobi and Yoda were not only tricking Luke, but essentially using him as a pawn to settle and old score.”

Yes. Spock-Prime suggesting that Kirk manipulate Spock-new to get an emotional response, and he also lied about the timeline ramifications about Spock-new finding out about him — all to support the greater good of defeating Nero.

In Star Wars, Kenobi and Yoda deliberately mislead Luke so that they can manipulate their plans for his jedi training — all to support the greater good of defeating Palpatine.

Same thing. In both movies, the meaningful learning is offset a bit my manipulative and questionably ethical (in a positive way though, with good intentions) teachers who want their protegees to defeat their old adversaries who bested them.

329. Red Shirt Diaries - January 30, 2014

@316

“The master/student relationship is not explored. It’s not really treated. There’s no richness there, no detail, no big ideas imparted from Spock Prime to Kirk. Kirk is not changed as a person in any substantial way from the meld. He doesn’t come out of it with a new worldview or anything. This is what I mean by “shallow.” There are elements of ST09 which have the appearance of being deep, but upon closer scrutiny they are really just superficial.”

I disagree completely with this. He was a changed man after the mind-meld — a mind meld which affected him deeply. The major thing he learned was that he and Spock would form a true partnership together — that may not be a big an idea as The Force, but it’s plenty big for what fits in Star Trek.
True, he still had some growing to do in STID; but then again, so did Like in SW5.

In your comparions here, you always seem to have a “glass is half full” view on SW, where you ingore all its weaknesses, but then have a rahter dismissive “glass with half empty” view on ST 2009, where you overdramatise all of it’s weaknesses…as well as keeping this this tactic about calling ideas and actions in Star Trek “superficial”, just because Star Trek doesn’t have this bid god-and-mysticism-Force big idea like Star Wars does.

330. K-7 - January 30, 2014

Red Shirt,

My take away from this, is that if you added “The Force” to Star Trek, then Cygnus-X-1 would be a much happier Star Trek fan.

LOL

331. K-7 - January 30, 2014

I mean, I can pick out 90% of the science fiction movies every made, and I can say:

“Well that handling of that mentorship or that death scene seemed superficial to me. If only the characters could have talking about a universally binding metaphysical god-like thing that gave the universe meaning, then the mentorship and the death scene wold have been so much better”

So what does this prove? Nothing at all. Well, wait a minute. It does prove that Cygnus-X-1 has come upon a great debate tactic here that he can never lose on — because the results are fixed. How in the hell can any sf movie really compete against The Force?

332. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

@331

Yea,

That’s why Star Wars is what Cygnus is comparing Star Trek 2009 to. Comparing most anything related to human mentorships and human teaming in Star Trek (outside of V’ger — and we all know how that movie turned out) to The Force in Star Wars of course will make the Trek elements sound “superficial.”

Cygnus know this — that’s why he keeps bringing this up. With this comparison, everyone who isn’t paying attention will nod their head and say, “geez, Cygnus, you are right; that clunky mind meld and Spock-Prime-Kirk mentoring is just so darn superficial when you compare it to the Jedi characters using The Force in Star Wars.”

Old school debate class trick — force a straw-man argument down your opponents throat until they figure out how to contradict it logically.

333. TrekMadeMeWonder - January 30, 2014

330. K-7 – January 30, 2014
Red Shirt,

My take away from this, is that if you added “The Force” to Star Trek, then Cygnus-X-1 would be a much happier Star Trek fan.

LOL

I thought that was the reason for Khan’s blood.

334. K-7 - January 30, 2014

@333

LOL. Wouldn’t Cygnus be so happy if we found out in Trek 2016 that Kirk’s super-blood has mitochondrians in it

:-)))

335. K-7 - January 30, 2014

A good quote here from Chris Evans today…star of Captain America Into Darkness….whoops, I mean Captain America Winter Solider, of course. ;-)

“On this movie it’s about him trying to, not just acclimate to the modern world, but I think it’s always been Cap’s goal to do what’s right and be of service, to help where he can. In this movie, I think the question is, “Well, what is right?” I think it was a lot easier in the 40s to know who the evil was. [laughs] There’s no disputing Nazis are bad. [laughs] Now it becomes a little bit more difficult to answer. There’s more of a gray area. What is the right thing? Are you of service to that cause? That’s where it becomes a tricky dispute for Cap, because things were just done differently in the 40s, and threats are different now, precautionary measures that are taken now are somewhat questionable and can be suspect in his eyes, so it’s a tough hurdle for him to jump.”

Sound familiar?

336. Marja - January 30, 2014

307 Daystrom, “Again perhaps. But for me there’s not a ‘single biggest reason’ but a combination of two reasons that explains the differences in the fanbases-

“1) Star Wars’ use of archetypes cause Lucas’ stories to resonate so very strongly, cross-culturally, with the psyche that one is predisposed to appreciate them. Programmed to, essentially. With Trek the intellect isn’t bypassed, for lack of a better term, the way it is with Wars. Trek’s use of archetypal characters, for the most part, haven’t been as unsubtle and in your face.

“2) Wars is ‘prettier, louder and more flashy’ which again doesn’t require much thought to appreciate.

As a Trek fan, I thought Star Wars simplistic when I first saw it. I enjoyed it, but it seemed simple to me.

It was not until I saw Bill Moyers’ interviews of Joseph Campbell, discussing “The Hero with a Thousand Faces” that I understood it wasn’t quite so simple after all, that Lucas had tapped into archetypes [rather than stereotypes, which is what I originally thought].

Archetypes are universal to Humankind, children* and adults alike, thus, translate the world ’round, adding to Star Wars popularity.

* recall Mr Abrams saying he didn’t “get” Trek when he was a kid, it was “too intellectual”

337. Marja - January 30, 2014

299 Duncan, “There is no real evil in Star Trek. There’s just some poor guy who’s either misunderstood and/or who’s been so screwed that he’s acting out.”

[1] I think Adm Marcus CHOSE to give in to fear/paranoia and construct the Vengeance/man her.

[2] Correct me if I’m wrong, b/c I could not watch past Episode 1 of SWars, but wasn’t Anakin Skywalker screwed? And thus chose the Dark Side?

338. Matt Wright - January 30, 2014

FYI guys Nimoy seems to be OK. He tweeted that he has developed COPD from smoking until 1986. So he probably ran out of his meds, or didn’t know he needed breathing meds, but he certainly does now.

“@TheRealNimoy: I quit smoking 30 yrs ago. Not soon enough. I have COPD. Grandpa says, quit now!! LLAP”

339. Marja - January 30, 2014

Re my 337, I couldn’t watch the “prequel” Star Wars films past Ep 1 … couldn’t take the wooden cliche-ridden dialogue.

That’s one thing Star Trek has over Star Wars. Wars is archetypal, but Trek has better dialogue ;-)

340. Jack - January 30, 2014

“I disagree completely with this. He was a changed man after the mind-meld — a mind meld which affected him deeply.”

An interesting possibility, but supposition. It doesn’t excuse the movie of insta-friendships and insta-achievements. We’re trying to read in things to make sense of the plot.

The whole weekend-screenwriting-course destiny bit is cheating. They don’t need to show real character development because TOS already did it for them. TOS wasn’t serialized, and yet you could see the relationship deepen as the show went on.

Heck, if it wasn’t an origin story and we got to see nuspock/kirk mid-5 year mission and they were respected friends and colleagues (instead of just having met that morning), that could be different (although it still won’t make Spock or Kirk’s death suddenly resonate as it did after decades of real time).

I can see it with comic book characters — if we have a new Superman origin story, we know from the get-go that Lois and Superman will be a thing. They don’t have to do much to get there. And even subverting our expectations for a scene or two (Lois is skeptical of Superman!) can work. But are Kirk and Spock really just the Lone Ranger and Tonto? They’re a team simply because they’re destined to be a team? Kirk is captain simply because he has potential — but he finally deserves to be Captain in STID because he’s finally learned his one big Captain lesson (it’s not about you, son).

I always thought, maybe foolishly, that Trek was a little more grounded in reality, at least as far as relationships went.

I can buy the ridiculousness of Sleepy Hollow because it’s very much fantasy. But in Trek, I expect the characters to be human beings.

339. The dialogue in the prequels was terrible, but the Trek movies (especially the TNG movies) laid on the speeches a little too thick at times. The dialogue in the first season of TNG makes The Phantom Menace look like Love’s Labour Lost.

341. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

@339

Yea, but it didn’t have “superficial” human interaction. That’s because it had The Force!

;-))

342. Jack - January 30, 2014

PS. Anyone else think a simple TOS crew-on-a-strange-new-alien-world-story where they teach that world a great lesson (and learn a surprising one themselves) is a totally terrible idea for a movie?

The bad TNG movies tried to emulate episodes. They were goddamned terrible. A movie can’t just be about exploration or space or a voyage — there has to be something happening (Master and Commander/Gravity/Captain Phillips).

343. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

@340

“It doesn’t excuse the movie of insta-friendships”

Huh ?????

Apparently you saw a different movie than I did then, because Kirk and Spock were NEVER instant friends in Trek 2009. In fact, in STID, a year after the events in Trek 2009, at the beginning of the movie, Spock still wasn’t really a friend to Kirk..that took the whole movie to develop. So, it took the entirety of two movies for Kirk and Spock to cement the friendship that somewhat gets to where the end of TOS Season 1 was heading.

Wow man, perhaps cut down on those crack pipe puffs before posting next time. THERE WAS NO “INSTA-FRIENDSHIP” WITH KIRK AND SPOCK IN STAR TREK 2009 — NO SUCH THING TOOK PLACE. Go and watch the movie again.

344. Red Shirt Diaries - January 30, 2014

Disco,

I agree. By the end of “Star Trek” Kirk and Spock had developed a respect and teamwork ability with each other, but were definitely not “friends” yet. There was no “insta-friend” problem with them in that movie that Jack seems to be suggesting?

345. Dave H - January 30, 2014

Hey Jack,

I am inclined to agree with DiscoSpock and Red Shirt here. Can you provide some examples of this intstant-friend issue that you are claiming results from a poor “weekend written” screenplay in 2009’s Star Trek?

I am just not seeing this issue?

Spock and Kirk were not friends by the end of the movie as others have established here? The screenplay allowed 3 years of time to play out, so the Kirk-McCoy friendship was certainly believable and fit perfectly.

Not sure what you are referring to? Maybe Sulu and Kirk? Scotty and Prime Spock maybe? Hmm?

346. Dave H - January 30, 2014

K-7. Excellent way of assessing this. Both movies in similar in outlining both the positive aspects as well as the manipulation necessary from the master to the apprentice to advance the story. There is not more purity in the SW approach as Cygnus suggests; if anything, the approach by Kenobi and Yoda is more morally problematic than Spock Prime’s suggested trick for nuKirk.

=============================
328. K-7 – January 30, 2014
“A skeptical person here could readily claim that Kenobi and Yoda were not only tricking Luke, but essentially using him as a pawn to settle and old score.”

Yes. Spock-Prime suggesting that Kirk manipulate Spock-new to get an emotional response, and he also lied about the timeline ramifications about Spock-new finding out about him — all to support the greater good of defeating Nero.

In Star Wars, Kenobi and Yoda deliberately mislead Luke so that they can manipulate their plans for his jedi training — all to support the greater good of defeating Palpatine.

Same thing. In both movies, the meaningful learning is offset a bit my manipulative and questionably ethical (in a positive way though, with good intentions) teachers who want their protegees to defeat their old adversaries who bested them.

347. Dave H - January 30, 2014

Matt,

Great to hear about Nimoy. Thank you so much for the update and all of your great work in keeping this site humming along nicely!!!!!

Say, did you guys at Trekmovie ever even find out if Anthony is still alive and living somewhere on this earth?

348. Dave H - January 30, 2014

@323

“Correct me if I am am wrong, but didn’t Kenobi (and Yoda) specifically and deliberately deceive Luke into deliberately not knowing that Vader was his father so that Luke would tow the Jedi-trainee line and learn the jedi way in that way that they needed him so so that they could them even the score with their old enemy, Emperor Palpatine? That’s not exactly my idea of this sort of honest Kumbaya-like learning experience that you claim is superior in Star Wars to Star Trek 2009. In fact, it sounds a hell of a lot more unethical and problematic than having Spock Prime ask Kirk to elicit an emotional response out of young Kirk.”

Yes, it does. Well said!

349. Dave H - January 30, 2014

And for my part,

Give me SUPERFICIAL Star Trek any day over that simpleton Star Wars crap that the masses love.

This is a Star Trek site, not a silly Star Wars site, people. We deal in SCIENCE fiction, not in kiddie fantasy and made up religions here.

I welcome SUPERFICIAL Star Trek…I wallow in it, celebrate it, and watch it over and over and over.

350. K-7 - January 30, 2014

#349.

Dave, I love it when folks wear their Trek hearts on their sleeves here!

How about this:

Star Trek vs. Star Wars: Superficial vs. Simpleton — take your pick?

;-0

351. Jeff C. - January 30, 2014

#246. I agree Marty. Star Wars built off of its rich history and continuity/canon. I would love to see Star Trek do the same continuing to build on its “prime” time line and add on to the 40 plus years most of us veteran fans know and love. I would like to see Orci and the writing team take that challenge, especially considering this next film will be made on the 50th anniverary.

352. K-7 - January 30, 2014

Jack, I agree with the other comments here — I am not getting your reference to “instantaneous friendship problems” with the Star Trek 09 screenplay?

353. Dave H - January 30, 2014

@351

“Star Wars built off of its rich history and continuity/canon. I would love to see Star Trek do the same…”

Three horrid sequels and some cartoons? We should be modeling Trek on that “rich” experience? Say again?

354. Dave H - January 30, 2014

I mean this envy and over-worhship of SW is kind of embarassing me as a Trek fan. SW had two great movies out of six, and a cartoon show targeted primarily at kids.

Big F’ing Deal.

I am not on not envious or jealous, I am completely underwhelmed by SW.

PS: And I will bet you the new movie will just be “OK”, not great. (but it will make money — SW is good for that)

355. Jeff C. - January 30, 2014

#318. Good post TUP. Its funny how just those few small changes would have made ST09 follow canon. Plus, it would have allowed the movie to be more believable. Mentioning believability in what armed forces/scientific armada does a cadet who was academically suspended illegally get on a ship and get promoted to first officer? Then after having been removed from the ship after blatant insubordination toward the acting captain he illegally gets back on to the ship again, coaxes the captain in to a physical altercation and ends up taking command… what mockery of a sane military/scientific outfit does that happen in???

356. Bob - January 30, 2014

Orci is full of crap as well as himself.

357. K-7 - January 30, 2014

@355.

I could just as easily ask when in history, has a prisoner, led a revolt, stole a battleship, and secret nuclear weapons plans, and then lead a personal war against a standing navy captain, and let a nuke off when he lost the ship engagement battle. What country/military does that ever happen in?

358. Dave H - January 30, 2014

K-7,

A better example would be the prefix codes in WOK. What sane military would allow ever major ship in it’s fleet to have the codes to turn off the remainder of the fleet’s defenses? It makes no sense at all.

And here’s another one. In ST4, the main window of Starfleet HQ gets blow in by what looks to be 60 MPH winds. What sane military doesn’t harden their HQ a bit?

359. Andorian - January 30, 2014

Agree on The Prefix Codes. That may have been the biggest plot hole in any Star Trek movie to date. I groan every time I get to that scene in Star Trek 2.

No naval fleet in their right mind would operate with such a simplistic and obviously super easy to break code like that for a major ship’s defenses. So easy to do. It’s ludicrous!

360. DiscoSpock - January 30, 2014

Guys, it seems pretty obvious here that their are major “military process issues” in many of the Star Trek movies, including what many people consider to be the three best ST movies — WOK, Trek 2009 and TVH.

This is nothing new, and we can expect more such issues in future movie and TV series.

361. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

321. dmduncan – January 30, 2014

Luke’s opposite is not Darth Vader. His opposite is the incorrigibly evil Palpatine. Vader is like the great mass of humanity who can be see-sawed back and forth between good and evil, those who are on the wrong side while thinking they are right.

Luke and Palpatine each know exactly who and what they are. It’s the great mass of people in the middle like Vader, fought over by the Lukes and Palpatines, who are confused about who is good and who is evil.

Interesting juxtaposition. I see it like this:

If we can posit a spectrum of goodness, ranging from (100) on the left to (-100) on the right, with the left pole being 100% Good and the right pole being 100% Evil, and the midpoint being (0):

(100)(Obi Won)—-(Luke)———-(0)——–(Vader)—-(Palpatine)(-100)

Then, at various times throughout the original trilogy, Luke is somewhere left of center, and Vader is somewhere right of center. I might say that Luke is finally at the left pole (100) at the end of Jedi, but it’s a journey for him to get there.

In Empire, we repeatedly see Luke losing control of his emotions and his vulnerability to the Dark Side being a deep concern to Yoda. In Jedi, during Luke’s duel with Vader, we see Luke slipping toward the Dark Side, indulging his anger as he pounds Vader into submission and lopping of his father’s hand, until realizing (as he looks at his own, mechanical hand) his weakness and his error.

Vader starts showing indications of good in Empire when he pleas with Luke to join him and “rule the universe as father and son.” It’s a twisted sort of love that Vader is expressing, but it is a form of love. Vader vacillates between more and less evil toward the end of Jedi until finally giving in as he lies dying and embracing the good.

362. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

323. Garak’s Pride – January 30, 2014

Have your really thought this through, Cygness-X-1? Because I am a bit amazed that you missed this huge problem of honesty and fairness in the teachings by Kenobi to Luke? A skeptical person here could readily claim that Kenobi and Yoda were not only tricking Luke, but essentially using him as a pawn to settle and old score.

You make a good point, in terms of analyzing the motives of the characters in Star Wars.

But my point was not about ethics, honesty or fairness with regard to the teachings of Kenobi vs. Spock Prime. My point was not about the motives of the teacher characters. Rather, my point was about the meaningfulness of the lessons imparted by the teacher characters to the student characters, and how those lessons affected the arcs and “hero’s journeys” of the student characters.

In SW, the lessons imparted by Kenobi are largely responsible for Luke’s growth as a character, his arc, and his “hero’s journey.” Luke uses the lessons taught him by Kenobi to save the day and become the hero. The same is not true, or it is much less true, with respect to the lesson taught Kirk by Spock Prime. Spock Prime’s lesson to Kirk isn’t a whole new worldview or way of thinking, as are Kenobi’s lessons to Luke. Spock Prime’s lesson is little more than a practical maneuver which Kirk uses to get what he wants at one particular point in the story, i.e. command of the Enterprise.

363. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

329. Red Shirt Diaries – January 30, 2014

The major thing he learned was that he and Spock would form a true partnership together.

I agree with you there.

But what kind of a “lesson” is that? It’s just someone from the future telling someone in the past what’s going to happen in the future, only it’s happening in a more empathetic way due to the mind-meld. “Kirk, this is what you and Spock will be like.”

To me, that’s pretty shallow and falls far short of the SW analogue. And I’m not just arbitrarily saying that things in ST09 are lesser than things in SW. I’m giving concrete, specific examples. “The Force” is a richer, deeper, more complex concept than “here is what will happen in the future,” and the former gave rise to correspondingly richer and deeper plot points and themes in SW than did the latter in ST09.

The Force “means” something. It has “meaning.” That concept teaches us lessons.

“Here is what happens in the future” doesn’t “mean” all that much. The concept of people in the past gaining knowledge of the future is neat, but it doesn’t teach us much pe se.

364. MJ - January 30, 2014

@323

“Didn’t Kenobi (and Yoda) specifically and deliberately deceive Luke into deliberately not knowing that Vader was his father so that Luke would tow the Jedi-trainee line and learn the jedi way in that way that they needed him so so that they could them even the score with their old enemy, Emperor Palpatine? That’s not exactly my idea of this sort of honest Kumbaya-like learning experience that you claim is superior in Star Wars to Star Trek 2009. In fact, it sounds a hell of a lot more unethical and problematic than having Spock Prime ask Kirk to elicit an emotional response out of young Kirk….A skeptical person here could readily claim that Kenobi and Yoda were not only tricking Luke, but essentially using him as a pawn to settle and old score.”

Good point — I hadn’t considered this, but yea, it really equals the playing field in terms of Cygnus trying to complain how much more pure the teaching/mentoring supposedly was in SW over Trek…in fact it negates his argument completely on that count.

@329

“Kirk was a changed man after the mind-meld — a mind meld which affected him deeply. The major thing he learned was that he and Spock would form a true partnership together — that may not be a big an idea as The Force, but it’s plenty big for what fits in Star Trek. True, he still had some growing to do in STID; but then again, so did Like in SW5. In your comparisons here, you always seem to have a “glass is half full” view on SW, where you ignore all its weaknesses, but then have a rather dismissive “glass with half empty” view on ST 2009, where you over-dramatize all of it’s weaknesses…as well as keeping this this tactic about calling ideas and actions in Star Trek “superficial”, just because Star Trek doesn’t have this bid god-and-mysticism-Force big idea like Star Wars does.”

Well said. It’s hard sometimes for Star Trek compete against a made up fantastical thing like The Force. But The Force has “false gravitas” — it’s a fantasy movie thing; unlike Trek, which is science fiction. Magicians are always more flashy than science — so beware of debaters here that compare Trek to movies like SW that his this false gravitas magic element in them…they are not meant to be taken seriously, whereas science fiction, although perhaps seeming superficial to some, might actually really happen someday in this universe of ours.

@331 @332

“I mean, I can pick out 90% of the science fiction movies every made, and I can say: ‘Well that handling of that mentorship or that death scene seemed superficial to me. If only the characters could have talking about a universally binding metaphysical god-like thing that gave the universe meaning, then the mentorship and the death scene wold have been so much better.’ So what does this prove? Nothing at all. Well, wait a minute. It does prove that Cygnus-X-1 has come upon a great debate tactic here that he can never lose on — because the results are fixed. How in the hell can any sf movie really compete against The Force?”…….With this comparison, everyone who isn’t paying attention will nod their head and say, “geez, Cygnus, you are right; that clunky mind meld and Spock-Prime-Kirk mentoring is just so darn superficial when you compare it to the Jedi characters using The Force in Star Wars.” Old school debate class trick — force a straw-man argument down your opponents throat until they figure out how to contradict it logically.

Yes, that’s why so many people use SW to point out deficiencies in Trek. Again, you have to work your brain and get around that silly Force false gravitas thing to appreciate the more realistic vision that Trek presents us with. But yea, that’s a debate tactic that will be tried by many, because it fools a lot of people.

@345

“Hey Jack, I am inclined to agree with DiscoSpock and Red Shirt here. Can you provide some examples of this intstant-friend issue that you are claiming results from a poor “weekend written” screenplay in 2009′s Star Trek? I am just not seeing this issue? Spock and Kirk were not friends by the end of the movie as others have established here? The screenplay allowed 3 years of time to play out, so the Kirk-McCoy friendship was certainly believable and fit perfectly. Not sure what you are referring to? Maybe Sulu and Kirk? Scotty and Prime Spock maybe? Hmm?”

Guys, I agree here. There is no issue with the Star Trek 2009 screenplay concerning creation of “instant friendships” by the crew…this is just not an issue at all???

@346 @354

“K-7. Excellent way of assessing this. Both movies in similar in outlining both the positive aspects as well as the manipulation necessary from the master to the apprentice to advance the story. There is not more purity in the SW approach as Cygnus suggests; if anything, the approach by Kenobi and Yoda is more morally problematic than Spock Prime’s suggested trick for nuKirk.”

Excellent observation.

@359

“Guys, it seems pretty obvious here that their are major “military process issues” in many of the Star Trek movies, including what many people consider to be the three best ST movies — WOK, Trek 2009 and TVH.”

Yea, don’t get me started, as there are many more. LOL It is what it is.

365. MJ - January 30, 2014

@321 @360

I inclined to agree with DM on this one.

Luke is at one end, and Palpatine at the other. Obi Wan and Yoda are merely helping to assist Luke along. Luke knows who he is, as does Palpatine. The majority of the people fall in the middle, and get confused either way, as Vadar was when Palpatine seduceed him.

And I love Garak’s world war two analogy earlier in relation to DM’s comments on this one:

“Palpatine is Hitler, Luke is Churchill, and Vader is Erwin Rommel. And Lando is Charles Lindbergh.”

Yep!

366. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

329. Red Shirt Diaries – January 30, 2014

And we can get more specific…

What meaningfulness does The Force add to the SW story and how does it change the hero, Luke?

From The Force Luke learns discipline, i.e. to settle his nerves, gain control of his emotions, and trust in a greater power; a commonly used word for this is “faith.” Whatever you think of that concept, you can’t deny that it is a relevant, deep concept rich with implications for the everyday lives of the people watching the movie.

And, now, let us ask the same question about Spock Prime’s mind-meld with Kirk. What meaningfulness does Spock Prime’s mind-meld add to the ST09 story and how does it change the hero, Kirk?

I can’t come up with much there. I agree with you that, from the mind-meld, Kirk gains knowledge of future events, specifically that he and Spock will become close friends. OK, and what else? Is that a deep meaningful concept—a person from the future telling a person in the past about future events? What lessons might this concept teach people in the audience? What sort of implications might this concept have for the everyday lives of people in the audience? I don’t know that I can explain it much better than this.

367. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

364. MJ – January 30, 2014

Good point — I hadn’t considered this, but yea, it really equals the playing field in terms of Cygnus trying to complain how much more pure the teaching/mentoring supposedly was in SW over Trek…in fact it negates his argument completely on that count.

Did you not read my response? That wasn’t my point at all. I never made the argument that you are trying to negate.

368. MJ - January 30, 2014

@366

You are doing it AGAIN here…you are forcing us to compare a science fiction mind-meld in Star Trek to the way cooler THE FORCE magical god-like universal property in SW…so of course Luke get’s more out of it…it’s magic that binds him to everything in the universe…he’s found God basically.

This is such a bogus comparison….you are not going to change my mind on this. The Force will win this over every time.

PROCESS OVER SUBSTANCE

369. MJ - January 30, 2014

…..more specifically…the property of a mind-meld is that you learn events and thoughts….the property of The Force is that you get a universal connection to everything in the universe, and you get a god-like sense of good and evil, etc. So of course Luke get’s more out of this than Kirk.

It’s like Kirk got a Windows 3.1 computer to play with and Luke got Hal-9000 to play with — who is going to grow more from their user experience?

Duh!

370. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

329. Red Shirt Diaries – January 30, 2014

We can take an example from STII and STIII, where Kirk is the student who learns an important lesson in STII which he then uses heroically in STIII. What lesson does Kirk learn from Spock? Kirk learns (1) how to finally reconcile himself with death and (2) the meaning and significance of sacrifice.

Witnessing the sacrifice of Spock in STII changed Kirk as a person. It closed a chapter in Kirk’s life, and at the end of STII we get the imagery and dialogue signifying the rebirth of Kirk. Kirk is reborn with a new appreciation for life and for its sacrifice. Kirk then uses this lesson in STIII, when he sacrifices himself (and his crew) to save Spock (and McCoy). We even got a classic phrasing for the theme of STII, which phrasing was then inverted to become the theme of STIII: “The good of the many outweighs the good of the few…or the one.”

That’s what I call “meaningful.” It’s rich and deep philosophically and also in terms of the teacher/student archetype.

The comparison with Star Wars wasn’t about Star Wars. I just picked an obvious example. You could make this comparison with any “epic” story that is rich in meaning. We could probably find some more good ones in Trekdom. ST09 just isn’t one of them.

371. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

MJ, you’re totally not getting the point I’ve been making.

372. Red Dead Ryan - January 30, 2014

Yes, I have to agree with MJ, K-7, RSD, Garak’s Pride, Dave H and others here who see the seperation between “Star Wars” and “Star Trek”. One is sci-fantasy, the other is sci-fi. One simply cannot, in all rationality, use the Force as a barometer for whatever happens in Trek.

For example, Spock’s abilities to sense the destruction of his homeworld is a result of a form of ESP that is within his Vulcan DNA.

In fact, this ability was seen numerous times in TOS, most notably, during “The Immunity Syndrome” where Spock sensed the destruction of the all-Vulcan crewed U.S.S. Intrepid. This occurred well before “Star Wars”, which arguably ripped it off and passed it off as being part of the “magical” force.

Stuff that happens in Trek tends to be more complex than anything that occurs in Wars.

I also disagree with Jack’s assertion that “Star Trek” 09 was about instant friendships. It took the whole movie for Kirk and Spock to begin seeing eye to eye, and only in STID did they become friends.

373. MJ - January 30, 2014

“We can take an example from STII and STIII, where Kirk is the student who learns an important lesson in STII which he then uses heroically in STIII. What lesson does Kirk learn from Spock? Kirk learns (1) how to finally reconcile himself with death and (2) the meaning and significance of sacrifice.Witnessing the sacrifice of Spock in STII changed Kirk as a person. It closed a chapter in Kirk’s life”

Here again, you are taking multiple movies in sequence in drawing lessons from them — which is an unfair comparison to 09 and STID, in which we just got the origin story done with.

For example, whether one like STID or not, you can’t argue that Kirk learning about sacrifice and closing out the selfish part of his life was probably the biggest character theme oi this entire movie. However, we don’t yet have the benefit of Trek 2016 to see how the more mature Kirk has “turned out” yet…so again, unfair comparison.

And earlier today I see where you used ROTJ to make one of your SW points…again, using a completed series of movies, with all the benefits of the character lessons learned, and comparing that to the unfinished product of the nuTrek series of movies…again, and unfair comparison as you have apriori knowledge of further character development.

374. MJ - January 30, 2014

@372

“Yes, I have to agree with MJ, K-7, RSD, Garak’s Pride, Dave H and others here who see the seperation between “Star Wars” and “Star Trek”. One is sci-fantasy, the other is sci-fi. One simply cannot, in all rationality, use the Force as a barometer for whatever happens in Trek.”

Exactly!

“For example, Spock’s abilities to sense the destruction of his homeworld is a result of a form of ESP that is within his Vulcan DNA. In fact, this ability was seen numerous times in TOS, most notably, during “The Immunity Syndrome” where Spock sensed the destruction of the all-Vulcan crewed U.S.S. Intrepid.”

Yea, and have your ever heard anyone criticize Robert Shabaroff for not including “character growth” in Spock after having sensed all those Vulcan’s dying? Of course not. It was like a mind meld — you get sense of things, events and thoughts, but you don’t get meaning and universally understanding like you would in the fantastical The Force.

375. Red Dead Ryan - January 30, 2014

Let us not forget that, while Luke didn’t grow up with his father present in his life, he was adopted by his aunt and uncle. Luke had a father figure to help keep him on the straight and narrow.

From what we know of nu-Kirk, he lacked that element in his life after his dad died. His uncle was allegedly a total jerk, and it wasn’t until he met Pike that he began to mature somewhat.

As MJ said, we’ll have to wait until the third movie before we can judge how mature Kirk had become.

376. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

Here’s yet another example: “Good Will Hunting.”

This one is a bit different, in that the movie ends with the hero (Will) setting off on his quest—to get the girl, get a good job (presumably) and ultimately grow as a man.

The teacher character (Sean) is played by Robin Williams. What lessons does the teacher impart to the student via the teacher/student relationship in this story?

Sean teaches Will that his (Will’s) toughness is really just a means of avoiding confrontation with a truth that he knows deep in his heart of hearts—that his father didn’t love him. Sean teaches Will that, ironically, being vulnerable can make him far stronger than the toughness that he’s been using to protect himself. Sean also teaches Will that his (Will’s) attitude about people is ultimately a reflection of his own view of himself, as exemplified by Will’s initial attitude toward his love interest, Skylar. And so on.

There are quite a few lessons taught in the teacher/student relationship in Good Will Hunting, and they’re deep, meaningful lessons that relate to the everyday lives of the people in the audience. The structure of GWH is a bit different than many hero tales in that the movie ends with Will heading off to California to use the lessons that he’s learned from Sean, but that difference doesn’t really detract from any of the aforementioned—the teacher/student relationship and the lessons imparted.

377. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

So, what does Spock Prime teach Kirk in ST09?

“This is what will happen in the future: You and Alt Spock will become close friends.”

And…

“This is how you can put one over on Alt Spock and gain command of the Enterprise.”

378. Red Dead Ryan - January 30, 2014

“Good Will Hunting” is a totally different genre, featuring totally different characters and situations.

Cygnus, you keep making these straw-man comparisons that don’t mesh well with the facts, despite your best efforts to do so.

379. MJ - January 30, 2014

@375.

Love that movie — a feel good story of a near-idiot savant Boston Gang-Banger who eventually accepts mentorship and wins the girl, etc etc.

Several Oscars — Williams for actor and I believe Damon and Afflec for screenplay.

This is Oscar level screenplay and acting here though, so of course it’s on a completely different playing field that Trek screenplays and acting. So any comparisons there are unfair — of course, I agree already that this academy award winning effort has more growth for Damon’s character than for Pines — it’s fracking academy award writing and acting.

380. MJ - January 30, 2014

I kind of feel sorry for your Cygnus for not being able to make a really good analogous point with a sf movie here that actually fits with what you are trying to say, so I will give you an example that you might actually be able to make some progress on here:

Movie: Contact
Character who develops significantly as a human: Jodie Foster
Mentor: Matthew M’s character

OK, get to work and get back to me when you have it figured out….

381. Red Dead Ryan - January 30, 2014

Spock Prime taught both nu-Kirk and nu-Spock to trust each other, and to overcome their differences.

The Spock Prime/nu-Kirk and Spock Prime/nu-Kirk scenes were well-acted and brilliantly done. They conveyed the mentorship and passing of the torch beautifully.

Not sure how Cygnus can criticise and nit-pick it apart.

Oh, wait, it’s because it’s not “Star Wars” nor “Good Will Hunting”! :-)

382. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

Here’s yet another example: “An Officer and a Gentleman.”

The teacher (Foley) is played by Louis Gossett Jr. and the student (Mayo) is played by Richard Gere.

What does the student learn from the teacher in this story?

The student learns that, ironically, putting others before yourself and living for something greater than your own self-interest yields far greater rewards, in terms of love, friendship and self-esteem, than living a largely self-interested life. Mayo learns this lesson the hard way from Foley throughout the story, and ultimately changes and grows as a person. At the end of the story, as an ennobled officer, it’s the lesson learned from Foley that leads Mayo to open his heart to love as he goes back for Paula, played by Debra Winger, in the classic factory scene. What Mayo learns throughout the story impacts every aspect of his life, and Mayo’s lesson relates quite readily to the audience.

Look, I’m not even particularly good at this, but I could keep going. A lit major would be more practiced and do a much better job at this, but I would hope that this has been enough to get the point across.

383. MJ - January 30, 2014

“Spock Prime taught both nu-Kirk and nu-Spock to trust each other, and to overcome their differences. The Spock Prime/nu-Kirk and Spock Prime/nu-Kirk scenes were well-acted and brilliantly done. They conveyed the mentorship and passing of the torch beautifully.”

Yes, it’s powerful, brings understanding to Kirk and Spock, and is quintessentially a Star Trek character moment.

That’s why in order to be critical about it, one has to reduce it to a couple of one-liner quips, and compare it to the incomparable The Force from a fantasy movie. That’s how you take this awesome Trek story element and make it sound shabby and weak.

384. MJ - January 30, 2014

@382

Again, a movie with Academy Award winning pedigree — the mentor won best supporting actor, and the screenplay was nonimated for the Oscar. So I agree that like Star Wars, Star Trek 2009 doesn’t have the character development that this movie has. Not sure what the point is — we are I guess comparing Star Trek and Star Wars genre movies to dramas that won lot of Oscars, right?

385. Cygnus-X1 - January 30, 2014

Instead of taking issue with minutiae like the genres of the examples (SW is no good because it’s fantasy, but Good Will Hunting is no good because it’s drama, and STII/STIII are no good, even though they are sci-fi, because they are two movies instead of one, and so on….)

Just perform above exercise yourself with ST09. What did that movie teach you?

Describe how ST09 is meaningful. Describe how that meaning is achieved by the story and its elements. State the main theme of the story. Describe how and why that theme is important and meaningful and how that theme is illustrated/emblemized/realized by the movie. And so on…

Then compare your explication of ST09 with some of the aforementioned movies. See how ST09 measures up.

386. Cygnus-X1 - January 31, 2014

383. MJ – January 30, 2014

Again, a movie with Academy Award winning pedigree — the mentor won best supporting actor, and the screenplay was nonimated for the Oscar. So I agree that like Star Wars, Star Trek 2009 doesn’t have the character development that this movie has. Not sure what the point is — we are I guess comparing Star Trek and Star Wars genre movies to dramas that won lot of Oscars, right?

You gotta be kidding. Now you’re disqualifying the above examples because they won awards?

I believe you when you say that you’re not sure what the point is. You clearly don’t understand what I’ve been saying.

BTW, movies *tend* to win awards precisely BECAUSE they are thought to be important and meaningful. If you consider an Oscar some kind of disqualification, then just forget everything I’ve said because you’re never going to get it.

387. Red Dead Ryan - January 31, 2014

One simply cannot credibly compare scenes between two (or more) movies of two (or more) different genres. Its like comparing the core of an apple to a core of a peach.

“An Officer And A Gentleman” has more in common with “Good Will Hunting” than it does with “Star Trek”.

The former take place in the real world, with real life as a template.

“Star Trek”, on the other hand, takes place the future, in space, and in other environments we can only dream about, involving events, situations, and people that don’t exist or occur in our current day-to-day lives. Its all hypothetical, and cannot be compared to dramas based on real lives, events, places, or times.

388. Vultan - January 31, 2014

Star Trek is fairly unique among movie and TV series. Probably best to limit comparisons within itself, and even then comparisons can be lopsided. I like TMP and TWOK. They’re right up against one another, but they’re very different movies.

I’m glad we’ve got so much variety. We’ve even got a zombie movie (First Contact). Well, sort of.

389. MJ - January 31, 2014

Come on Cygnus,

You are going to sit there with a straight face and keep comparing Star Trek to some of the greatest drama movies of all time?

LOL

Dude, you Star Wars and The Force stuff doesn’t even match up to those movies you are bringing up now.

What’s next? The Godfather? Citizene Kane?

;-)

390. MJ - January 31, 2014

@388.

Yea, although I think movies like Avatar, Forbidden Planet, and Serenity could be compared. But in general, I agree with you.

391. Red Dead Ryan - January 31, 2014

Also, the format of Trek pretty much makes it impossible to make a mentorship between characters the main focus of a two-hour movie. At least not without boring the socks off the audiences.

The “mentorship” scenes worked in Trek 09 because it was well-crafted and interwoven into a bigger, epic plot.

It was the right amount. Too much, or too little, the movie would have been imbalanced.

392. Dave H - January 31, 2014

Ah, I get off work, and I see that Cygnus is talking about Good Will Hunting and An Officer and a Gentleman…what the heck?

393. MJ - January 31, 2014

@391

I think it’s only a matter of time before he brings up Legally Blonde and Bridesmaids.

;-)

394. Andy - January 31, 2014

Apologies if this has been talked about, but if not:
http://www.callthecops.net/cbs-developing-new-csi-ems-related-start-trek-television-shows/

Does anyone else think these sound like really bad ideas,? Don’t get me wrong, seeing Star Trek back on the small screen is great but isn’t the whole ethos to “boldly go where no one has gone before”, this just seems like zooming around where everyone has gone before with a very similar plot line every week we’ve seen in countless shows just pandering to the masses!

Would love to know other peoples thoughts!

395. Andy - January 31, 2014

Haha – oops, I’ve just found out this is a spoof website, haha!

Still, please don’t EVER make this type of show for Star Trek!!

396. Jeff C. - January 31, 2014

#357-360. I agree that Starfleet has had its share of “military process issues”. That being said the absurdity of the circumstances of how Kirk rose to captain Starfleets flagship was too much for me. I am all for throwing believability out the window to a certain extent, but my windows not that big. Lol!

397. T'cal - January 31, 2014

I WANT MY TREK ON TV!

398. Yorkshire Kirk - January 31, 2014

Hey MJ, you don’t run this board. There are people who might not agree with you, just let it go.

399. Curious Cadet - January 31, 2014

@359. Andorian,
“No naval fleet in their right mind would operate with such a simplistic and obviously super easy to break code like that for a major ship’s defenses.”

I don’t know how the US Navy does it, but just looking at corporate encryption to access sensitive servers, the passwords are often little more than the simple prefix code used in TWOK. But It’s not the password that is the real security here. That’s just one piece of the armor. The real security is knowing the type of encrytion required to access the Reliant’s systems. The frequency, the protocol, secondary ID authorizations, and passwords required to even establish a network connection, much less even knowing the proper pathway to establish communication and get through the firewall … All of these things are common to our most secure network systems today. So the prefix code sequence still is perfectly valid even by today’s standards, and likely will be into the forseable future.

400. Dave H - January 31, 2014

“I don’t know how the US Navy does it, but just looking at corporate encryption to access sensitive servers, the passwords are often little more than the simple prefix code used in TWOK.”

No, the US NAVY does not do it that way. LOL

401. Marja - January 31, 2014

363 Cygnus, “The major thing he learned was that he and Spock would form a true partnership together. [quoted]

“I agree with you there.

“But what kind of a “lesson” is that? It’s just someone from the future telling someone in the past what’s going to happen in the future, only it’s happening in a more empathetic way due to the mind-meld.”

The mind-meld, I think, moved Kirk so deeply b/c Spock communicated the POWER of Kirk and Spock’s friendship in the TOS universe; i.e, “we saved civilizations – we saved the galaxy – we did all these things as friends to help the cause of the Federation, in itself a positive force.”

So I think it was a lot “deeper” than just, “Hey, you two will be great friends!”
———————————————————————————————
Kirk’s insubordination and unlikely promotion: This is something I found problematic from the get-go. I could see a “field promotion” to First Officer AFTER the events of ST2009, but even that seems unlikely. As another sensible person here suggested, the end of the first movie should have been Kirk getting his commendation “for original thinking” and reporting to the Farrugut as MAYBE a LCDR 0-4. To promote him to CAPT [0-6] from rebellious cadet who showed total insubordination to his then-CO, Spock, was unlikely and unrealistic and weird in the extreme!

STID should have OPENED three years or so after the events of ST2009, with Kirk as First Officer of Enterprise serving with Captain Spock. After Spock’s decision to save Nibiru by risking his life at the volcano, Kirk should have relieved him [cos that was pure-dee crazy of Spock] and taken command, falsified his report of Spock’s risk, citing PTSD on Spock’s part, and so on from there. I could have bought something like that a lot better.

This whole young-genius-getting-command OF THE FLAGSHIP OF THE FLEET after what seems like a day [in ST2009] was unlikely, as were the rank issues in STID. The assumption by Elder Spock in ST2009 that Kirk had to be captain of the Enterprise to begin his friendship with younger Spock was illogical.

As to the comparisons of Luke-Kenobi with Elder Spock-young Kirk, yes; Kenobi’s aim was to save the universe as he knew it; Spock’s aim was to defeat Nero, who posed a terrible RISK to the known galaxy, but not quite the same huge risk to civilization, so I can accept Kenobi’s deception of Luke a bit more easily than I can accept Spock’s assumption that young Kirk becoming Instant Captain would achieve the grand end of saving the galaxy.

But, that was the construction of ST2009 ; it’s done, and the captain thing in STID has already been established as fact in the AU, so [sigh] we just need to get on with it, I suppose ….

402. Ahmed - January 31, 2014

=============================================
Star Trek actor Zachary Quinto turns movie producer
By Kev Geoghegan
Entertainment reporter, BBC News

BBC: You’re part of one of the biggest franchises with Star Trek, are there any plans to make more?

Quinto : Yeas, I’m sure that we will, I have absolutely no idea when. I’m pursuing other projects until I get the call that its a go. I know that they’re working on a script and looking at directors to take over for the third film. The 50th anniversary in in 2016, so I imagine there will be some attempt to get a film together.

BBC: JJ is obviously busy with another big franchise Star Wars? Have you had the call, would you be interested?

Quinto : I’m always interested in working with JJ, but I feel like I have the notch in the belt of a major sci-fi franchise. I love Spock, I love playing the character. If there was something that JJ wanted me to do in the world of Star Wars I’m sure I wouldn’t argue with him but I feel like I’m beholden to Star Trek and I’m happy with that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-25931610

403. Marja - January 31, 2014

The problem of comparing Star Wars to Star Trek:

“FORCE ‘GRAVITAS’ ”

;-)

—————————–
T’Cal, let us sing, to the tune of the ancient MTV promotional ad,
“I WANT MY …
I WANT MY …
I WANT MY TREK TV !!”

404. Marja - January 31, 2014

Zachary Quinto, excerpted from interview with Kev Geoghegan, Entertainment reporter, BBC News
—————————————————————————

BBC: You’re part of one of the biggest franchises with Star Trek, are there any plans to make more?

Quinto: Yes, I’m sure that we will, I have absolutely no idea when. I’m pursuing other projects until I get the call that it’s a go. I know that they’re working on a script and looking at directors to take over for the third film. The 50th anniversary in in 2016, so I imagine there will be some attempt to get a film together.

JJ is obviously busy with another big franchise Star Wars? Have you had the call, would you be interested?

Quinto: I’m always interested in working with JJ, but I feel like I have the notch in the belt of a major sci-fi franchise. I love Spock, I love playing the character. If there was something that JJ wanted me to do in the world of Star Wars I’m sure I wouldn’t argue with him but I feel like I’m beholden to Star Trek and I’m happy with that.
—————————-

Yikes, I know this is an actor talking, but yikes,”The 50th anniversary in in 2016, so I imagine there will be some attempt to get a film together.”

Dear BobO, I know [hope] the script is underway, keep going! LET’S GET THIS SHOW ON THE ROAD ;-)

405. Phil - January 31, 2014

@359. And they don’t . Trek’s prefix code was a plot device, and a fairly ludicrous one at that. Military secrets don’t remain secret for long, so if the Klingons knew about the existence of a simple code that basically shuts down Federation ships, they would be moving heaven and earth to break that code. It also reflects badly on Starfleet crew and protocol that a ship could be taken over, with little or no attempt made to resist, or verify what is going on.

406. Disinvited - January 31, 2014

I think the science-fantasy/science-fiction distinction between SW and
ST is important to keep in mind, but I get lost with the distinction when it is asserted that when Luke gets in touch with the Force he is connecting with God but altKirk mind-melding with the one person it reveals to him is directly responsible for his universe and himself springing into existence in the cosmic firmament…well, that somehow is in no way comparable?

407. Cygnus-X1 - January 31, 2014

388. MJ – January 31, 2014

The point was SUBSTANCE vs. SUPERFICIALITY.

It’s not necessary to use “the best movies of all time” for comparison. One could use good Trek movies and episodes for comparison, which I actually did. But, of course, you took issue with that comparison as well.

Anyway, forget it. I’m tired of beating this dead horse. Go ahead and keep your low standards. I’m sure you’ll keep getting shallow, superficial movies from Bad Robot.

I get the distinct impression that even if the people who made ST09 admitted that it was ankle-deep, and that they just threw in some lines to give the appearance of substance and meaning where there really wasn’t much, some people still wouldn’t see the difference.

408. Cygnus-X1 - January 31, 2014

399. Marja – January 31, 2014

The mind-meld, I think, moved Kirk so deeply b/c Spock communicated the POWER of Kirk and Spock’s friendship in the TOS universe; i.e, “we saved civilizations – we saved the galaxy – we did all these things as friends to help the cause of the Federation, in itself a positive force.”

Again, none of that was shown or explored in that scene, there’s no big idea there, and you’re doing the job of the filmmakers for them.

And, even with you filling in the blanks—and they most certainly are blanks—it is STILL only a guy from the future telling a guy in the past about what happens in the future. Or, to use your own phrasing, it is about a guy from the future telling a guy in the past that “a powerful friendship” happens in the future. “You and Spock will become very close friends and your friendship will be important.” Again, ankle-deep.

Compare that with the many aforementioned examples of the teacher/student relationship and the lessons imparted in those other movies mentioned above. The teacher/student relationship in those movies had substance and meaning. The audience learns a lesson from it. There’s a “theme.” What lesson does the audience learn from Spock Prime conveying to Kirk that he will become close friends with Spock?

409. Tom - January 31, 2014

Hopefully Nimoy is ok. I would still love for him to be included in the new movie in some way. I have suggested an end credit scene. If indeed they want to and he is able I hope they close out his character arc in the alternate universe. I think having the character die (again) would be too depressing for the movie or an end credit scene. Would like to see him say goodbye to NuSpock for some reason so that the temptation of cameo that took place in STID would be gone for good. Perhaps realizing that he should not have given him the advice is his motivation for leaving. Or stick with his helping rebuild Vulcan etc. He could leave with showing the hologram scene with something included with Bill and Leonard together. End credit scenes are short so it will be diffiucult to do all this in that time frame. Thinking about this , wouldn,t be funny if that throwaway, meaningless scene with Nimoy in STID has implications in the next movie. Bob could be really sneaky if he planted that scene for something future

410. captainspock - January 31, 2014

Mr.Nimoy Has COPD Chronic Obstrve Pulmonary disease that why he in the wheel chair & on oxygen this is from Mr Nimoy twitter page, he looks so frail in the picture i have seen on another trek site . please pray for mr Nimoy ….

https://twitter.com/TheRealNimoy/status/428720437711736832

411. Dave H - January 31, 2014

@408

“Again, none of that was shown or explored in that scene, there’s no big idea there, and you’re doing the job of the filmmakers for them.”

Hmm, well when you SW added “scene exploration” of The Force in Ep 1, we got Mitocholirdians…how did that additional scene exploration work out for your precious fantasy franchise?

I agree with Marja. The mind-meld certainly was of course more meaningful to Spock than just what was shown — anyone paying attention should have got the essence of that.

;-)

412. Dave H - January 31, 2014

@Cygnus

“Anyway, forget it. I’m tired of beating this dead horse. Go ahead and keep your low standards. I’m sure you’ll keep getting shallow, superficial movies from Bad Robot. I get the distinct impression that even if the people who made ST09 admitted that it was ankle-deep, and that they just threw in some lines to give the appearance of substance and meaning where there really wasn’t much, some people still wouldn’t see the difference.”

I see that your position has now devolved into indirect slams on others here and meaningless conjecture.

Yea, it’s time for you to throw in the towel and move on — I completely agree! Put SW on your DVD player and take a break.

413. Michael Hall - January 31, 2014

“Palpatine is Hitler, Luke is Churchill, and Vader is Erwin Rommel. And Lando is Charles Lindbergh.”

Hmm. So does this mean that Luke is perfectly okay with using weapons of mass destruction on tribal societies which inconvenience him, and that Lando once supported Palpatine and his policies before renouncing them?

414. Mad Mann - January 31, 2014

My thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Nimoy on getting well. Even though I did not think his cameo in STiD was needed to the story, I am glad he was in Star Trek one last time.

Live Long and Prosper, Mr, Nimoy.

415. TUP - January 31, 2014

@327 – I disagree. You say that this kirk lost his father and it changed him and we shouldnt just see the same Kirk. What I saw in 09 was the stereotype of a boy who lost his father in battle. It must mean his mom married a jerk and was never around for him. it must mean the boy grew up rebellious and anti-authority, drifting through life.

Thats such a tired stereotype. the Kirk I wanted to see was a Kirk who roses above NO MATTER WHAT. His father dying will change him ofcourse, but it doesnt have to make him opposite. It can simply change how he deals with his desires and his genius, a Kirk strugging to become what we know he will.

It would make Pike as a mentor mean more because he’d be that fatherly image that gives kirk the nudge in the right direction. What we got was one speech that suddenly turned his whole life around. it was hokey and stereotypical, like a sitcom.

416. Red Dead Ryan - January 31, 2014

Dave H.,

“Hmm, well when you SW added “scene exploration” of The Force in Ep 1, we got Mitocholirdians…how did that additional scene exploration work out for your precious fantasy franchise?

I agree with Marja. The mind-meld certainly was of course more meaningful to Spock than just what was shown — anyone paying attention should have got the essence of that.

;-)”

I agree with this. You can’t explain metaphysical situations like mind-melds or the Force with technobabble — it just ruins something that is supposed to be felt on an emotional, spiritual level.

This would be like going to a high-class restaruant, ordering a meal, and then subsequently asking how that meal is made, from the ingredients to the way it was cooked.

Nope. Most folks want to enjoy a good meal. They don’t care how it’s cooked — just as long as it’s good and satisfies their hunger.

“I see that your position has now devolved into indirect slams on others here and meaningless conjecture.

Yea, it’s time for you to throw in the towel and move on — I completely agree! Put SW on your DVD player and take a break.”

Yeah, let him compare “The Phantom Mencace” to “Goodfellas” on his own spare time, LOL!

417. Dave H - January 31, 2014

“Thats such a tired stereotype.”

It’s not a stereotype. It’s the real world for many boys who grow up without a father. This is REAL — not politically correct or a game.

And as someone who works with kids, I can assure you that this is prevalent in society today.

418. TUP - January 31, 2014

One can presume that Starships change their prefix codes. Spock says as much “…assuming he hasnt changed the code.”

The reason the writers dont make the small changes such as what I suggested is because they dont really understand the characters. They watch the movies and see a rebellious Kirk and extrapolate that he must have been a brash, wild, womanizing arrogant prick in his youth. Canon tells us that isnt so. Watching TOS tells us that isnt so. Kirk was never that emotional.

The writers dont “get” the characters.

419. Dave H - January 31, 2014

@418

“They watch the movies and see a rebellious Kirk and extrapolate that he must have been a brash, wild, womanizing arrogant prick in his youth.”

What a dumb-ass comment. You completely ignore that here, the context was that nuKirk is brought up without a father — that is NOT canon, guy. Come on, you do know that, right???

So, then, if you are a good writer, you look at that situation, and you ask yourself — what are some of Kirk’s negative tendencies that might be exacerbated by growing up without a father. And you reasonably create nuKirk from this. Just like Orci and company did.

It’s logical, and I think it’s great writing.

420. K-7 - January 31, 2014

Dave, I agree completely.

In fact, it’s outstanding writing. At least for the first movie in 2009.

421. Red Dead Ryan - January 31, 2014

Good lord, now TUP is spouting off about the rebellious nature of nu-Kirk?

How hard is it for some people here to understand the effects that a lack of a father (or father figure) has on a boy growing up into a man?

I thought the depiction of nu-Kirk was entirely realistic, and something you’d expect from today’s young men who happen to be brilliant and talented, but lack focus and discipline.

There can be no debate about this. I honestly think TUP, Cygnus, and other anti-nuTrek “critics” really ought to rewatch the 09 movie and open their eyes and minds to what actually goes on throughout the movie.

422. Phil - January 31, 2014

Patrick and Ian are ready for the big game…

http://www.buzzfeed.com/lyapalater/ian-mckellan-and-patrick-stewart-are-excited-but-cleary-conf

423. DiscoSpock - January 31, 2014

TUP

T = Time’s
U = Up
P = Putz

;-)

424. Michael Hall - January 31, 2014

@ Cygnus X-1,

Since you’ve more or less been on your own for most of this thread, I just wanted you to know that I very much appreciate and concur with the points you made in #170. It might have been nice if others had followed Marja’s example of resprctfully engaging with the questions you raised, rather than criticizing you for having the temerity to raise them at all.

425. Marja - January 31, 2014

408, Cygnus, dear Cygnus, Each of us imagines mind-melds in our own ways. Because I imagine Vulcan brains are configured such that they’re able to process many streams of information simultaneously, AND telepathically communicate with others, here’s how I imagine it went down during PrimeSpock’s meld with AUKirk:

In short, I think it’s kind of like a movie running at very high speed:

PrimeKirk and PrimeSpock’s history aboard the Enterprise during all those years and everything they did and all the crew and all the solutions to all the situations and all the planets and civilizations they saved and all that they lost and all the battle strategies that ever arose and all … and what a nice mother Amanda was and why she means so much to Spock and why she’s the one person in his life you NEVER say anything bad about …..

Which is why AU Kirk stumbled away reeling with tears in his eyes.

He understood the meaning of two lives and the impact they could have on all those around them, the meaning of loyalty and duty, in the short time it took to have the mind-meld.

Yeah, I filled in those blanks, with a little help from Nimoy and Pine.

Worked for me.

426. Dswynne - January 31, 2014

@415 (TUP): But we DID see nu-Kirk rise above his circumstances, when Pike challenged him to join Starfleet. You say that this is a stereotype? Back when I tutored kids to pay my way through college, I’ve met many nuKirks during that time. Was I successful in being a mentor to these kids? Not every time, but quite a number would go on to college…and that’s just me as a tutor. But, whatever.

427. Michael Hall - January 31, 2014

#425–

Well, I always thought the stunned appearance of nuKirk in that scene was due to his experiencing, via the meld, the full (albeit repressed) force of Spock Prime’s anguish at seeing his home world destroyed. In any case, I’ll say this much: I thought that instant of truth and clarity was Chris Pine’s finest moment in Trek 2009, and by a long stretch.

428. Marja - January 31, 2014

415, TUP, “What I saw in 09 was the stereotype of a boy who lost his father in battle. It must mean his mom married a jerk and was never around for him. it must mean the boy grew up rebellious and anti-authority, drifting through life. … Thats such a tired stereotype. the Kirk I wanted to see was a Kirk who roses above NO MATTER WHAT. His father dying will change him ofcourse, but it doesnt have to make him opposite. It can simply change how he deals with his desires and his genius, a Kirk strugging to become what we know he will. … It would make Pike as a mentor mean more because he’d be that fatherly image that gives kirk the nudge in the right direction.”

Well, first, as Dave H said at 417, the “stereotype” is true to some degree. And you will recall that PrimeKirk grew up with a father and his dad saw him go into the service. Unlike AU Kirk.

AU Kirk DID rise above. Sure, he’s drunk in the bar, one night out of how many? Pike calls him a “genius-level offender” but does that mean all Kirk does as a youth is drink and run after women, and, umm, “offend” [we don't know what offenses he committed, did he rob a bank or something]?

I think he had a thirst for learning, otherwise how would there be evidence on record of his genius? How would he be able to impress Uhura in 20 seconds by naming off the elements of Linguistics?

How much do we know of AU Kirk’s youth? We know that he had a mean-tempered stepdad or uncle who was in charge of Jim when his mother was away. We know that Jim did not have the privilege of knowing his dad. Did he and Winona Kirk later live on Tarsus IV, as PrimeKirk did, and experience a planet-wide disaster? Was he traumatized by this?

As a person whose same-sex parent died when I was very young I can tell you that the death of a parent exerts its influence FOR LIFE. It leaves a hole in a child’s soul that s/he can never fill.

Jim Kirk rose above that enough to have an appetite for learning. He accepted Pike’s challenge and “enlisted” in Starfleet. We don’t know how much mentoring Kirk got from Pike while Jim was in the Academy. He continued meeting challenges as he went thru cadet training, which is not choir practice, y’know? It teaches discipline and the way to get through tough circumstances and how to trust yourself. How to be a leader, and a follower. These last two, we can see young Jim has some trouble with, for sure!

But he’s learning. Albeit in what we discerning fans might call unrealistic circumstances [i.e. while commanding the flagship], he’s learning. In spite of the youthful arrogance on display when he “cheats” the KM test, Kirk grows, not in the way I would have had him grow and learn, but … his experiences in STID surely matured him.

Egad, I sure hope so.

429. Marja - January 31, 2014

419 Dave H, “You completely ignore that here, the context was that nuKirk is brought up without a father — that is NOT canon, guy. Come on, you do know that, right???”

Dave, I think part of the problem so many dyed-in-the-wool “TrueTrek” fans have is that they CANnot or WILL not ‘get’ that this Alternative Universe is DIFFERENT from the Trek we grew up with.

I’m a true Trek fan, but I realize that New Canon is not the same Canon we grew up with. And unlike many, I’m just fine if the AU continues unspooling into a different future, but with the same decency on display from our beloved characters.

And before the inevitable someone brings up AU Kirk’s errr, history with young ladies, I remind them that this Kirk is TEN YEARS YOUNGER than the Kirk we met in TOS’s “Where No Man Has Gone Before.”

I’m sure there’s a puerile joke in that last paragraph somewhere ;-)

430. Cygnus-X1 - January 31, 2014

424. Michael Hall – January 31, 2014

Thank you. Cheers!

431. MJ - January 31, 2014

“Well, I always thought the stunned appearance of nuKirk in that scene was due to his experiencing, via the meld, the full (albeit repressed) force of Spock Prime’s anguish at seeing his home world destroyed. In any case, I’ll say this much: I thought that instant of truth and clarity was Chris Pine’s finest moment in Trek 2009, and by a long stretch.”

Exactly, Michael Hall. Well said!

432. MJ - January 31, 2014

“As a person whose same-sex parent died when I was very young I can tell you that the death of a parent exerts its influence FOR LIFE. It leaves a hole in a child’s soul that s/he can never fill.”

Marja, thanks for sharing what is obviously a personally painful bit of your life with us. RIP for your parent, my friend.

And yes, this is not the kind of thing that someone can “laugh off” as a “tired stereotype.” That comment from TUP was moronic at best, and insulting to some here at worst.

433. MJ - January 31, 2014

@426

“@415 (TUP): But we DID see nu-Kirk rise above his circumstances, when Pike challenged him to join Starfleet. You say that this is a stereotype? Back when I tutored kids to pay my way through college, I’ve met many nuKirks during that time. Was I successful in being a mentor to these kids? Not every time, but quite a number would go on to college…and that’s just me as a tutor. But, whatever.”

Well said, Dswynne.

434. Jeff C. - January 31, 2014

I will throw a new topic out there…how many of you like prime Pike better than nu-Pike? Nu-Pike has been praised by most who have liked the Abrams movies. Although we only saw one episode with him in it (okay…technically 2) prime Pike was an interesting character I wish we could have seen more of. One of my all time favorite scenes is when he is living the illusion of the bar with the Orion slave girl and the patron there asks him about selling his soul. Prime Pike was a troubled man, but fought his way out of a difficult situation with the Thalosians…btw I wonder if Bob Orci talks about these kind of things like we fans do?

435. MJ - January 31, 2014

@434

Prime Pike seemed like a bit of a Prima donna to me. And even more of a male chauvinist than Prime Kirk. I don’t really dislike him, but he seemed a bit of a cold fish.

436. Jeff C. - January 31, 2014

One more new topic…I cannot remember anyone mentioning the theory about the same person from the past not being able to occupy the same space as his or herself in the present. Although one could argue Prime Spock is technically not from nu-Spocks future they did meet and talk at the end of ST09 and presumably more times. Not that I buy in to this, but I have heard this space theory before. Does anyone else believe in that sort of thing? I know that is not a popular theory. It would ruin many a sci-fi film. Lol. Of course I believe it was Einstien’s theory that if we went back in time nothing would be there. That’s not a popular one either, but its out there.

437. Jeff C. - January 31, 2014

#435. He did seem to have a chip on his shoulder. I cannot remember him being chauvinist, but I cant say it did not happen. I actually liked the doc in that episode as well…although his name escapes me at the moment.

438. Ahmed - January 31, 2014

@ 422. Phil – January 31, 2014

“Patrick and Ian are ready for the big game…

http://www.buzzfeed.com/lyapalater/ian-mckellan-and-patrick-stewart-are-excited-but-cleary-conf“”

LOL, love these guys :)

Thanks for the link, Phil.

439. MJ - January 31, 2014

@437.

Yea, I liked that doc as well. Reminded me a bit of the Doc on Gunsmoke.

440. MJ - January 31, 2014

@436

A major issue with that would be that your body’s cells are always regenerating themselves, so physically, you would be a different person somewhat.

Now if God exists, he might not allow that. That gets into things that cannot be proven or disproven of course.

Interesting idea.

441. Cygnus-X1 - January 31, 2014

436. Jeff C. – January 31, 2014

Although one could argue Prime Spock is technically not from nu-Spocks future

There’s no need to argue it, because Bob Orci spent weeks at a time addressing that very issue at this site during production of ST09.

Spock Prime is definitely NOT from Alt Spock’s future. Prime is from a totally different, separate universe, i.e. “the Prime Universe,” which has its own timeline and events. The relationship between Spock Prime and Alt Spock is kind of like the relationship between two mutated cells born from the same host cell. The two mutants could be very different or very similar or anywhere in between, depending upon their relative degrees of mutation.

In the case of the two Spocks, the premise is that they are largely similar, but not 100% similar. This premise, incidentally, makes the villain, Nero’s, motive all the more weak, as his already weak motive of taking vengeance upon the man who tried his best but failed to save his (Nero’s) planet is further weakened by the physical fact that the people on whom Nero is taking his vengeance are not even the same people or even related to the people with whom he is so displeased.

At any rate, when the Alt Universe premise for ST09 was announced during pre-production, about half the people commenting at this site were either up in arms or concerned to some lesser degree about the whole alternate universe premise, and Orci was trying to mollify them by explaining that he’d founded his story premise on the “Many Worlds Interpretation” of Quantum Mechanics, which is basically this: for every quantum event all possibilities that can happen do happen, with the different possible outcomes occurring in, and giving rise to, different universes.

Orci actually could have invoked several other cosmological theories which entail a multiverse (Cosmic Inflation, M Theory) but he chose the MWI for whatever reason, a theory which is generally regarded by cosmologists today as one of the weaker, less plausible multiverse scenarios.

442. DiscoSpock - January 31, 2014

“but he chose the MWI for whatever reason, a theory which is generally regarded by cosmologists today as one of the weaker, less plausible multiverse scenarios.”

Wow, such a thoughtful and interesting post by you for a change until this point at the end — where you just couldn’t resist finding some way to use this topic to take one of your predictable potshots at Orci.

:-(

443. Cygnus-X1 - January 31, 2014

442. DiscoSpock – January 31, 2014

It’s not really a pot-shot; you just view it that way because you don’t like people criticizing Bob or his movie.

I would have remarked about that choice on Bob’s part with regard to any writer/movie, if I happened to have a bit of knowledge about the subject matter. Perhaps instead of getting defensive on Bob’s behalf, you will give thoughtful consideration to the other multiverse scenarios in cosmology.

444. Cygnus-X1 - January 31, 2014

442. DiscoSpock – January 31, 2014

P.S. By the way, THIS is a pot shot:

“Wow, such a thoughtful and interesting post by you for a change…”

Though, such pot shots from you are not a change, but the norm, and I don’t take them personally, so carry on. Just don’t be a hypocrite about it, because that does get annoying.

445. Garak's Pride - January 31, 2014

Cygnus-X-1,

Guy, why did you you have to throw in the “for whatever reason” thing that kind of infers that Orci wasn’t do the best he could on the physics?

I agree with Disco Spock. That was a pretty interesting piece of info there from you that certainly could have stood on its own without the unnecessary back-handed complement to Orci at the end.

446. Cygnus-X1 - February 1, 2014

445. Garak’s Pride – January 31, 2014

Guy, why did you you have to throw in the “for whatever reason” thing that kind of infers that Orci wasn’t do the best he could on the physics?

Because I don’t know the reason for his choice, and I was giving him the benefit of the doubt instead of asserting that his choice was attributable to the limits of his knowledge of cosmology.

Though, now that you mention it, the BR Trek movies do have infamously bad science—Bob’s commendable attention to detail regarding MWI is actually atypical of the applied science in his Trek movies—and with their huge budget well in excess of $100 million for ST09, BR didn’t find it worthwhile to spend a few thousand bucks on a science consultant.

TOS had a science regular consultant on staff, and they had a shoe-string budget. It’s just another symptom of the artistic values of Bad Robot with which I take issue.

447. Cygnus-X1 - February 1, 2014

445. Garak’s Pride – January 31, 2014

P.S. btw, it is possible that Orci had a specific reason for choosing the MWI over other multi-verse scenarios. It is actually YOU who are suggesting that his choice constitutes a failure on his part, not I.

448. Eowyn - February 1, 2014

It would be nice if the next movie does balance things a little bit and is less a one man show and more the ensemble story that tos was supposed to be if the time had been different.

I’m sick of being ‘told’ that Kirk and Spock are the best of best friends of the whole galaxy and all the parallel universes and I’d love if they start to show them as, you know, normal friends with a realistic dynamic like all the other characters have. They do well with secondary relationships such as the Kirk-McCoy and Kirk-Uhura friendships and the Spock/Uhura relationship. I just wish Spock Prime had never interfered with the Kirk-Spock dynamic. I loathe destiny. They’re becoming caricatures of original Kirk and Spock.

449. Curious Cadet - February 1, 2014

@405. Phil,
“if the Klingons knew about the existence of a simple code that basically shuts down Federation ships, they would be moving heaven and earth to break that code.”

You make this sound like logging onto public wifi at Starbucks. Most of the digital world is operated by passwords, military and civilian alike. The password itself is not the only security involved in protecting electronic access, and if it were anything the military or government accesses by simple passwords would have been compromised on a daily basis by enemies of the state moving “heaven and earth” to break those codes. Moreover, Spock tells us the codes can be changed at will. This suggests that the prefix codes might change routinely, possibly randomly, and could be changed with regularity following strict protocol on each ship.

____________
“It also reflects badly on Starfleet crew and protocol that a ship could be taken over, with little or no attempt made to resist, or verify what is going on.”

Well everybody on the Reliant seems to know instantly there’s a problem, and Khan seems to know exactly what, as he searches frantically for the “override”. Had he been more familiar with Starfleet vessels, it seems to me, Kirk would have been locked out before his little plan had any effect. This tells me that no Starfleet vessel could be commandeered this way, and that Kirk took the only shot he had, by hopefully catching Khan off-guard just long enough to get off a shot or two before Khan realized what was happening, and could stop it.

This part of the film may be oversimplified for audiences, but it hardly seems ludicrous, especially if you pay attention to what is actually going on.

450. DiscoSpock - February 1, 2014

“Though, now that you mention it, the BR Trek movies do have infamously bad science”

Get back to me when you are a description of Proto-Matter.

LOL

PS: You response to Garak proves my point. In that response, you start taking other jabs at Orci and Trek 2009. That is the main purpose of about 90% of your posts on this site. You are here to tear Star Trek down and be negative about it.

451. DiscoSpock - February 1, 2014

Oh, cut it out, Curious Cadet. The ease of Prefix Codes things was obviously a huge plot hole.

452. Curious Cadet - February 1, 2014

@448. Eowyn,
“It would be nice if the next movie does balance things a little bit and is less a one man show and more the ensemble story that tos was supposed to be”

TOS was never and ensemble story. Kirk was clearly the focus of almost every episode, even when the story was about Spock (Amok Time). McCoy was almost always a supporting character, with the rest falling in line behind them. TNG was closer to a true ensemble show. So in that respect Abrams films are true to TOS.

453. MJ - February 1, 2014

Cygnus,

Look at yourself, dude. You are responding to challenges from a couple folks and claiming that you were not trying to be negative on Orci/nuTrek, but then in the last one you throw in more slams on the science — thus, proving the point those guys were trying to make about you have the need to just continually beat up Orci and nuTrek. You can’t help yourself but to just always slam NuTrek.

Whether you admit it or not, you sire are a “hateer.”

I still like you, and respect your posts, but this is what it is. Let’s not delude ourselves differently.

454. MJ - February 1, 2014

@452

I am in agreement with you here, CC. This is “Star Trek” after all, not that Kumbaya-ensemble NextGen pile of bore.

455. Curious Cadet - February 1, 2014

Everybody ready for Orci’s latest Trek fantasy universe? Meet Jane Kirk. Complete with new TNG-hybrid uniforms.

http://www.thetrekcollective.com/2014/01/parallel-lives-preview.html

456. Cygnus-X1 - February 1, 2014

453. MJ – February 1, 2014

Nah, it’s just that you and your buddies would rather everyone repress comments critical of BR Trek.

The “exploding star that threatened the galaxy,” among other things, was really bad science in ST09. I’m not going to pretend that it wasn’t just to pacify you. That you regard objective criticism of BR/BO’s movie/writing as “a slam” is indicative of you being prejudiced, not of me being a “hateer.” After all, if their movies weren’t replete with bad science, one would not be able to criticize them on those grounds.

457. Red Dead Ryan - February 1, 2014

Cygnus,

It is quite obvious to everyone here that you have an axe to grind with Bob Orci. The criticisms you have brought up have been debunked by others here.

I’m going to assume the main reason you don’t like the reboot is because the look and style is not to your tastes. That is completely valid, as opposed to trying to rip apart the work of Bob and co. with your incessant whining, nitpicking, and manufactured outrage.

Also, “bad science” has been a part of Trek for a long time. Remember the Genesis Project? Oh, wait — that was from TWOK, the unquestioned “Holy Grail” of Trek written and directed by the “prophet” Nick Meyer! (Sarcasm) Can’t criticise that now, can we?

458. Red Dead Ryan - February 1, 2014

Also, the “exploding star threatening the galaxy” was an example of hyperbole and exaggeration. But completely understandable give the situations surrounding it.

So no, this isn’t a valid criticism either.

459. Garak's Pride - February 1, 2014

@456

Actually, Wrath of Khan has the worst science in it of any TOS Trek movie to date.

— Protomatter — completely made up and fake. In fact, Protomatter exists in science, and it can’t be used like that — it has completely different scientific properties. It’s completely bogus and not supported by science.

— Complete fabrication of what a nebula would act like, including it’s properties. If you were in a nebula, you would barely know it, as the dust particles are spread that thin (in reality a collection of mass and gasses that are spaced light-years apart). But here, a nebula is depicted like a technicolor fog bank a few miles wide There is no reason at all that they would make shields and sensors useless, and it would not hide your ship. Epic fail for Star Trek movie science.

— Engine Room scene where Spock dies:

a. It’s unbelievable that a sheet of 1/4-in transparent aluminum or whatever can protect them…if that was all that was need, then could certainly have suits that a man could wear that would provide the same properties. On a ship that runs on antimatter, in which everyone in engineering is dressed like the Michelin Man to protect them from something, but no one goes where Spock dares to tread without a suit, and after we’ve seen radiation sicknesses cured with hyposprays in episodes of the original series…

b. Earlier in the movie, we send a immovably radiation protection bulkhead that is metallic and at least a foot thing coming down…but in the death scene all of a sudden 1/4 glass like stuff works….huh?

c. Why at all would a crew member need to go in there to just simply open and close that cap on the mains. Any good robotic piece of equipment with today’s technology could do that. (check out STID — they corrected that lame and scientifically inaccurate mains room issues)

— The Prefix Code thing…others have covered this…it embarrassing to view that scene now and not laugh

— Writers and director apparently couldn’t even perform 3rd grade math correctly to number the Seti Alpha planets right. Not to mention that it’s completely ridiculous that the computers didn’t warn the Reliant that Khan and folks were in the system.

— We get the whole “Khan displays two-dimensional thinking” bit, and we’re supposed to buy the premise that a “superior intellect” leader who could rule a world (albeit temporarily), steal away on a sleeper ship, steal a starship, who has presumably thought about attacking and killing Kirk for many moons, who knows how space works, and who’s probably heard of submarines, has never figured out three-dimensional warfare.

— Why can’t Chekov and Terrell just beam out of Khan’s world before Khan’s guys can cross a few dozen yards of sand to catch them? Use the science of the transporters…duh!

As someone in the scientific field, sure, stuff in STID like the supernova threatening the galaxy” bother me, but by comparison, I think WOK is probably the worst offender of all Trek movies in relation to scientific and engineering issues and “what the F was that” elements.

460. Red Dead Ryan - February 1, 2014

CORRECTION:

Also, the “exploding star that threatened the galaxy” line was an example of hyperbole and exaggeration. But completely understandable give the situations surrounding it, and the ramifications afterwards.

So no, this isn’t a valid criticism either. Just more pointless nitpicking.

461. Red Dead Ryan - February 1, 2014

#459. Garak’s Pride:

Agreed. Well put!

CASE CLOSED!!!!!

462. Garak's Pride - February 1, 2014

@458

“Also, the “exploding star threatening the galaxy” was an example of hyperbole and exaggeration. But completely understandable give the situations surrounding it.”

Yes, there is big difference between just making shit up like we saw time and time again in WOK, versus the nuTrek movies, where they just exaggerate and extrapolate a bit.

I am not a big fan of the exaggeration, but it certainly is preferable to just “making shit up” like in WOK.

463. Jeff C. - February 1, 2014

441. I am not a fan of nu-Trek either. I think you are definitely entitled to your opinion and just because they are not the same as 2 or 3 others that does not make you a hater. I thought the spirit of Star Trek was to be respectful of differences not to try and tear someone down for having them. Hang in there.
Anyways I read much of what Orci stated about the alternate universe and how nu-Spock isn’t prime Spock, but there is still a possibility he could be…what I mean is nu-Spocks future has not been rolled out yet, so although it is extremely unlikely, it is not impossible he is him.
I don’t necessarily have a problem with quantum mechanics, I have a problem with it never having been used before. Spock tried to correct countless situations where someone or an event changed or would change history. Now all the sudden there’s an alternate timeline and there is no need to do that.
As for Nero I agree. His motives were weak, especially since Spock did not destroy Romulus,he just failed to stop it.

464. Cygnus-X1 - February 1, 2014

457. Red Dead Ryan – February 1, 2014

Remember the Genesis Project? Oh, wait — that was from TWOK, the unquestioned “Holy Grail” of Trek written and directed by the “prophet” Nick Meyer! (Sarcasm) Can’t criticise that now, can we?

Sure, go right ahead.

I don’t think that criticizing the Genesis Device premise of TWOK is comparable to criticizing factual errors, though. The Genesis Device was pretty fantastical, but it earned its keep by giving rise to a rich story. The factual errors in the BR movies are not necessary to the stories; they’re just careless mistakes resulting from BR not finding it worthwhile to spend a few bucks on a science consultant.

465. Cygnus-X1 - February 1, 2014

459. Garak’s Pride – February 1, 2014

You make valid points. I agree with most of what you say there.

466. Ahmed - February 1, 2014

It make perfect sense to forgive the scientific inaccuracies in nuTrek & compare it to movies that were made 30 years ago. After all, the TWOK writers back in the 1980s & the nuTrek writers in 2010s didn’t have access to the Internet where they can fact check any scientific inaccuracies in their script, right ?

And since TWOK & the rest of Trek movies are full of scientific inaccuracies & plot holes, then it is very reasonable that we encourage the nuTrek writers to continue with that tradition & write movies full of plot holes & scientific inaccuracies!

467. Cygnus-X1 - February 1, 2014

463. Jeff C. – February 1, 2014

Thanks for your comment.

Anyways I read much of what Orci stated about the alternate universe and how nu-Spock isn’t prime Spock, but there is still a possibility he could be…

Orci actually did a good job of addressing this issue here during pre-production of ST09 by referencing “The Grandfather Paradox,” which goes like this: If Spock Prime were the same person (but older) as Alt Spock, then it would be possible for Spock Prime to kill Alt Spock’s mother (or grandfather) at a point in time before she’d given birth to Alt Spock, thus preventing the existence of Alt Spock. But, if Alt Spock never existed because his mother was killed by Spock Prime, then Alt Spock wouldn’t grow up to be Spock Prime and Spock Prime would never have existed. But if Spock Prime never existed, then he wouldn’t be able to go back in time to prevent the birth of Alt Spock…but he just did that.

Some top cosmologists actually think there might be a way around The Grandfather Paradox. They reason that it might still be possible to travel back in time within one’s own universe by assuming that “something” would invariably interfere with events that would give rise to The Grandfather Paradox. For example, Spock Prime could actually be the same person (but older) as Alt Spock, but events would invariably work out in such a way as to prevent Spock Prime from preventing his own birth, i.e. the birth of Alt Spock.

But, in terms of Alt Spock, there’s already so much of his life that has been different from the life of Spock Prime—not the least of which is the death of his mother at a younger age and planet Vulcan exploding, which Spock Prime never experienced—that it doesn’t seem feasible at this point to have them turn out somehow to be the same person, regardless of The Grandfather Paradox.

468. Cygnus-X1 - February 1, 2014

466. Ahmed – February 1, 2014

There’s also the issue of the respective budgets of TWOK vs. the BR movies.

TWOK had such a small budget that Nick Meyer had to do the job of like three people. He had to rewrite the entire script himself. He didn’t have money for another writer, much less a science consultant.

The other thing to keep in mind when trying to compare scientific inaccuracies is the reasons why they occur. For example, taking artistic license with the appearance of a nebula for the purpose of intensifying the drama of the scene is different from having people and objects violate the laws of physics, for no beneficial reason, when the scene could have been done just as effectively (or more so) with scientific accuracy. And I’m actually not even sure that a nebula (or regions of it) couldn’t physically be thick and hazy enough to substantially decrease visibility. That’s one I’d have to research.

469. Allison - February 1, 2014

@44 ash

Agree completely. Dark Kirk would be very interesting…if handled right. Otherwise it could be a disaster.

I’ve been dying for some carol/Uhura interaction since I first saw they added another female character. Let’s get on that! Can you imagine how awesome that would be? Dr. Marcus and Uhura sitting down for lunch together and just sharing their genius with each other . Queens. I love it so much. And hopefully now that we’ve seen both in their panties, they could stay fully clothed in the next film. How novel!

And yea, I’m kinda over Spock and Uhura too :/ I didn’t mind it much in ST09, although I could see it was used for some shock value and to add romance to the film that ALL movies seem to require, but in STID I was sick of it. It moved from being harmless to outright annoying. I’d like a clean break from that, but that’s just me.

470. Captain Slow - February 1, 2014

@ 448 Eowyn

But these movies have had the largest character focus since TUC and TVH. How many memorable moments did Sulu have in TWOK? What about McCoy? He had about two. First on Kirk’s birthday and then when arguing about the Genesis device. In the J.J. movies he had quite a few more. Same with everyone else. Sulu got a big fight scene and then made an intimidating speech to Khan. Chekov got to save Kirk from falling in two movies. Uhura’s role in ST09 and STID was a huge step up from TSFS where she just went off to Vulcan while Kirk and crew had all the fun. And then of course there’s Scotty who in my opinion was at his best in STID.

Of all the flaws in the movies (and while I love them, I can see plenty of flaws), the characters can’t really be faulted.

471. MJ - February 2, 2014

@464

“The Genesis Device was pretty fantastical”

Just like your precious, THE FORCE, eh? ;-)

And then to have to read your whiney stuff about poor Nick Meyer and the budget…right, sure, whatever you say, dude…lol

Just admit you have a double-standard…you have a glass is half full mentality with all Trek movies not done by JJ, and a glass if half empty view with everything JJ Trek. JJ Trek — superficial and bad science = sucks; Classic Trek movies — fantastical made up stuff and best they could do with pressures of budget = awesome.

Give me a F-ing break.. You should win some national award for subjective thinking. You are a subjective god — a leader in partiality thinking and cherry-picking on earth today.

472. MJ - February 2, 2014

Actually, the opposite is true. Science fiction movies, in general, were harder (i.e, more “hard sf”) from the mid-60’s through the 80’s thnn they are today. I don’t see the internet as a factor either way. I think really its been weak-sf comic book style movies which have cheapened the level of hardness in sf movies. For every Avatar or Trek 2009, there are 20 comic book or action figure movies.

=========================================
466. Ahmed – February 1, 2014
It make perfect sense to forgive the scientific inaccuracies in nuTrek & compare it to movies that were made 30 years ago. After all, the TWOK writers back in the 1980s & the nuTrek writers in 2010s didn’t have access to the Internet where they can fact check any scientific inaccuracies in their script, right ?

And since TWOK & the rest of Trek movies are full of scientific inaccuracies & plot holes, then it is very reasonable that we encourage the nuTrek writers to continue with that tradition & write movies full of plot holes & scientific inaccuracies!

473. Red Dead Ryan - February 2, 2014

I think Cygnus X-1 should become a politician. His double-standards and selective criticism would draw major attention on the campaign trail. :-)

474. Jeff C. - February 2, 2014

#467. Lol. When you start talking and theorizing with quantum mechanics it gets complicated. A glimpse or more of the prime universe in the next movie would be vert cool. They must be wondering what happened to Spock.

475. E.T. and ME - February 2, 2014

I hope very much, the next script will not allude to the TOS-timeline. Orci and Co. are better, when they create something really own as in the first Abrams-ST-movie.

476. Disinvited - February 2, 2014

The massive bulkhead doors coming down in WoK were radiation shields? Guess I’ve got a good excuse to watch it again. Pretty sure I always thought they were blast doors? Didn’t Scotty once intimate in THE DOOMSDAY MACHINE that once things start going wrong in the engine room from a massive attack it is very difficult to keep even the minimum power of impulse engines going without a definite chance of an explosion on the level of an H-bomb?

Everything going on in the WoK’s damaged engine room couldn’t have been solely to address radiation problems? What good are gas masks against radiation?

477. Eowyn - February 2, 2014

470. Captain Slow

you misunderstand :) I do think that they did quite well with the characters, all things considered. The scene between Spock and Uhura in that ship was great for me because it added some depth and character development to an otherwise funny but flat action scene. I like the way the writers try to make it so that even a tiny scene can reveal something about the characters and can make you know them better. In a tv-show you’d have all the time in the world to do that in different scenes but in the movies it’s not as easy so you have to work with the little you have. I also love that while the reboot might have similarities with the past it’s still an unique story where perhaps you’re allowed to do things that simply weren’t possible in the 60s.
What I just hope is to see is not another movie that is so focused on Kirk and only his relationships like I perceived the other one being, and I also hope that the main friendship we all talk about can be a bit more realistic and less forced next time. The quantity of screentime doesn’t make the quality.
‘Take care’ of those fans who loved the original but also think about all those who loved your thing because it was new and original, in the first place.

478. Marja - February 2, 2014

434 JeffC, I can state for the record my absolute endorsement of Bruce Greenwood’s Pike. His was probably one of the best portrayals of a captain I’ve ever seen, and most of his dialogue was well-written indeed.

I say this with long experience of captains in my career in the Coast Guard. He knew his stuff, he was rapid-fire when the situation called for it. He was like the real thing, right down to his annoyance with Sulu in the “you are a pilot, right?” bit, trying to get Chekov’s name right, his brief announcement about the untried flagship’s first mission. All struck me as realistic [within the fiction]; Greenwood nailed the characterization of a captain.

479. Cygnus-X1 - February 2, 2014

471. MJ – February 2, 2014

No idea what you’re on about.

I get the impression that you and your buddies may have made certain assumptions which might be erroneous and/or you’re confused about something that I’ve said. Whatever the case, if you’re gonna be an a-hole about it, I’m not interested.

480. Jeff C. - February 2, 2014

#478. Marja. Nu-Pike was a very convincing leader. I wish they had did his death better in STID. Not that someone wouldn’t be scared knowing they were about to die, but I wish the circumstances of his death had been different. Then again with the writing not being what I hoped for in that film at least that was not a predictable scene. He died a way many people do- unceremoniously.

481. Jeff C. - February 2, 2014

Biggest mystery of STID…how did that skinny kid, Pavel, pull Scotty and Kirk up off that cat walk? Lol. Didnt the Enterprise start to crack in a prior movie…I believe it was Generations. Can anyone confirm that?

482. Crewman Darnell - February 2, 2014

“Last year, a scriptreader read 300 scripts for 5 studios, all the while taking notes on the problems and trends he saw. The scriptreader listed 37 frequently occurring problems, here are the top 20:”

http://io9.com/infographic-shows-the-most-common-problems-in-screenpla-1514229773

Interesting.

483. Ahmed - February 2, 2014

@482. Crewman Darnell

” “Last year, a scriptreader read 300 scripts for 5 studios, all the while taking notes on the problems and trends he saw. The scriptreader listed 37 frequently occurring problems, here are the top 20:”

http://io9.com/infographic-shows-the-most-common-problems-in-screenpla-1514229773

Very interesting study, lets see what applies to STID from that list:

1.The story begins too late in the script [Check]
2. The script has a by-the-numbers execution [Check]
3. The villains are cartoonish, evil-for-the-sake-of-evil [Check]
4. The character logic is muddy [Check]
5. The female part is underwritten [Check]
6. The narrative falls into a repetitive pattern [Check]
7. The conflict is inconsequential, flash-in-the-pan [Check]
8. The protagonist is a standard issue hero [Check]
9. The script favors style over substance [Check]
10. The ending is completely anti-climactic [Check]
11.The script suffers from arbitrary complexity [Check]
12.The script goes off the rails in the third act [Check]
13.The script’s questions are left unanswered [Check]
14.The plot unravels through convenience/contrivance [Check]
15.The script is tonally confused [Check]
16.The protagonist is not as strong as need be [Check]
17.The premise is a transparent excuse for action [Check]
18.The story is one big shrug [Check]
19.The dialogue is cheesy, pulpy, action movie clichés [Check]
20.The message overshadows the story [Check]

484. Jeff C. - February 2, 2014

#483. I wonder how long it took Orci and the gang to write the last 2 movie scripts? I wonder how that would compare to other movies… say the last couple best picture award winners? One could argue that if someone has had the idea for a movie in there head for a while it probably wouldn’t take them long to put it on paper if they are an experienced writer, but to do it right would probably take longer than a movie that is subpar…just a thought.

485. Crewman Darnell - February 2, 2014

I see a *lot* of those problems in screen writing over recent years. My own honest criticisms when applying that list to STID are:

2. The script has a by-the-numbers execution
3. The villains are cartoonish, evil-for-the-sake-of-evil
4. The character logic is muddy
5. The female part is underwritten
7. The conflict is inconsequential, flash-in-the-pan
8. The protagonist is a standard issue hero
9. The script favors style over substance ****
11. The script suffers from arbitrary complexity
12. The script goes off the rails in the third act ****
13. The script’s questions are left unanswered
14. The plot unravels through convenience/contrivance ****
17. The premise is a transparent excuse for action
18. The story is one big shrug
19. The dialogue is cheesy, pulpy, action movie clichés

486. MJ - February 2, 2014

George S. Patton Jr.:

“I know I’m a prima donna. I admit it. What I can’t stand about Monty is, he won’t admit it.”

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
479. Cygnus-X1 – February 2, 2014
471. MJ – February 2, 2014

No idea what you’re on about.

I get the impression that you and your buddies may have made certain assumptions which might be erroneous and/or you’re confused about something that I’ve said. Whatever the case, if you’re gonna be an a-hole about it, I’m not interested.

487. Dave H - February 2, 2014

#486

Great post, MJ. Subtle, but honest.

It’s funny how some people can’t even see how one-sided they are on things. They don’t even understand it themselves. They honestly think that they are being objective, even when nearly everybody else determines that that is not the case.

488. K-7 - February 2, 2014

@485

This from a self-proclaimed fan of Star Trek: Renegades.

LOL

489. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

486. MJ – February 2, 2014

And now it’s devolved simply to insults, with all remaining pretense of interest in issues Trek cast aside.

And it really seems like you don’t even know what you, Statler and Waldorf are fighting over. The thing that you’re indignant and testy about literally changes from one post to the next.

First it’s what you perceive as a slam on Bob and BR. Then, after I pay Bob a compliment and acknowledge the validity of points raised, your issue becomes that I’m acting like “a politician” and applying a “double standard.” And now, you simply disparage me outright as a “prima donna,” while complaining that I lack “objectivity.” And it’s obvious that the irony of this last one is completely lost on you.

I am having more fun sitting back here and watching you spin around in circles.

I’m actually kind of wondering what you’ll come up with next.

490. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

To anyone else who might be interested, I was too quick to assent with issues taken regarding science in TWOK. I’d forgotten that many or all of those issues have come up previously, and there were good reasons given in their defense. The clear paneling in engineering, for example, is presumed to be transparent aluminum and Kirk activates an intercom system just off-screen in order to speak with Spock inside the chamber. As for why every door sealing off corridors in the ship wasn’t also made of transparent aluminum, I don’t know. The entire ship is obviously hypothetical, and the clear paneling in engineering obviously served a dramatic purpose, and served it quite well.

491. Disinvited - February 3, 2014

#462. Garak’s Pride – February 1, 2014

On the prefix code thing: I’m surprised that so many find it implausible given that it’s in much of our technology’s DNA.

At the time WoK used it I had already been exposed to the concept in the decade prior via the IBM 360 Model 30 computer. You see that system’s master console was an actual mechanical typewriter-like mechanism. The problem was that, it being mechanical, it would not infrequently jam, and when that would happen its computer operator would be as locked out as Khan looking for an override. IBM’s “solution” for dealing with these situations was a “prefix code” that could be submitted via any remote punch card reading workstation that would cause its OS to behave as if the issued command had been typed on the master console itself.

FWIW I know this because I had personal experience with a successful exploit using a gambit similar to the one Meyer had his Kirk character employ.

So perhaps now 3 decades later this might be regarded as a 2010 decade “plot-hole” but I feel safe in assuring you that it wasn’t seen as such to those viewing it in the decade of its premier.

It also seemed practical given the frequent amount of times in the series Kirk would find functioning Starships with all crew members dead, missing or otherwise incapacitated. Made sense that Starfleet would have something to make it procedurally simple to stop one of its own starships from careening out of control through a quadrant.

Now the only “plot-hole” I saw back then, in regard to this, was that Kirk, who was a brilliant tactician and able to exploit even the merest sliver of a chance to maximum effect, wouldn’t immediately lock out Khan’s ability to override or at the very least activate and/or install backdoors on all of Reliant’s systems while reeking havoc on them?

But hey, that might have risked being dramatically boring, although ID4 seemed to manage a way around that.

As for movies employing hyperbole: well that doesn’t bother me so much has having Prime Spock in 2009, who has always striven for pinpoint accuracy when explaining anything to Jim Kirk, employ it when explaining things to this altJim Kirk who he says he recognizes as his “friend.”

492. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

@489

Guy, perhaps you need to enter a 12-step program in objective thinking. Everything you say on Trek is geared towards criticizing nuTrek on nearly exactly the same topics that you make excuses or “cut slack” on regarding classic Trek.

The absolutely amazing thing to me is that you absolutely don’t realize it. You don’t understand how blatantly obvious your favoritism is. Most everyone here realizes that you have two sets of rules here — one for classic Trek and one for new Trek.

My favorite “excuses” of yours for classic Trek were the one where you said poor Nick Meyer had to rush the screenplay and deal with budget pressures, and your new one about how the transparently aluminium science error was necessary for the plot. Regarding these, I could offer that the Trek 2009 screenplay had to be locked under the writers strike, and that the supernova threatening the galaxy was a science error that was necessary for the plot…but know, your double standard doesn’t allow those same exact reasons to work for nuTrek. And you will no doubt respond with more excuses that will attempt to explain this away.

And now, you whine about MJ name-calling/insulting you, when obviously that quote from Patton was MJ saying that you and him are both prima donnas (the difference being that he freely admits it for himself). That is hardly an insult, since he puts himself out there as well as a prima donna. I guess you find it more convenient though to whine that he is picking on you?

The only person you are fooling here is yourself. Just for once I’d like to hear you say on one minor item here:

“You know, for this item, your are right. I did kind of let that slide for that classic Trek movie while I am being very critical of that same point for Trek 2009.”

Of course, this will never, every happen. Because you are 100% fair in your critiques of Trek 2009, and you have a 100% level playing field when comparing JJ-Trek to classic Trek (sarcasm).

493. Garak's Pride - February 3, 2014

#489

“Then, after I pay Bob a compliment…”

You mean, after this:

“…but he chose the MWI for whatever reason, a theory which is generally regarded by cosmologists today as one of the weaker, less plausible multiverse scenarios…..Though, now that you mention it, the BR Trek movies do have infamously bad science……After all, if their movies weren’t replete with bad science, one would not be able to criticize them on those grounds…..they’re just careless mistakes resulting from BR not finding it worthwhile to spend a few bucks on a science consultant.”

If this is a complement, I’ve got some real estate in Kandahar that I’d like to sell you, my friend. ;-)

494. Michael Hall - February 3, 2014

“I could offer that the Trek 2009 screenplay had to be locked under the writers strike, and that the supernova threatening the galaxy was a science error that was necessary for the plot…”

Actually, it was only necessary for the plot that Romulus, and not the entire galaxy, be threatened by the supernova. So that bit of uber-hyperbole just comes across as a forced, scientifically illiterate attempt to up the stakes. My guess is that after getting feedback from the Rand Corporation Bob Justman or Gene Coon would have nixed the reference to a galaxy-wide threat altogether, and that would have been the end of it. (Though in fairness they did make quite a few scientific missteps themselves, you never got the sense it was out of sheer laziness, but rather the week-to-week pressures of producing a space opera on a level of sophistication that had never been attempted before.)

495. Ahmed - February 3, 2014

@ 488. K-7 – February 2, 2014

“@485
This from a self-proclaimed fan of Star Trek: Renegades.
LOL”

A typical response from you !

The comment is about STID script issues & you talking about Star Trek: Renegades.

If you want to criticizes ST: R, a fan film, then compare it to other fan films like “Star Trek: Of Gods and Men”. But don’t compare it to STID, the most expensive Trek movie EVER.

I know the fact that Star Trek: Renegades is not even out yet & therefore it is doesn’t make sense to judge it before you watch it, has no bearing on you. After all, you already judged that Captain America 2 was a ripoff of STID, the most original movie in the history of cinema , before the movie is in theaters !!

496. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

@494 “So that bit of uber-hyperbole just comes across as a forced, scientifically illiterate attempt to up the stakes.”

Again, they didn’t have the opportunity to fix that as the script was locked from the writer’s strike. Cygnus used the “pressures of getting the script done” for some of the science errors in Star Trek II. I see these therefore as an apples-to-apples to comparison — these are two similar instances that explain how the pressures/constraints on script writing resulted in some science errors that none of us are happy with.

497. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

@495

Ahmed, why the unnecessary pot-shot on K-7. I know that the two of you lock horns a lot, but his post was directed at someone who I also remember playing up how great Renegades looked; and Renegades looked to many of us like STID on steroids — Trek going dark, tons of action, lack of story logic, taking the franchise in a direction we don’t want it to go, etc. etc.

So, it seems really hypocritical for this Crewman Darnell person to provide all of these criticisms of STID, when he/she has demonstrated that he/she really like this “Son of STID-like show” called Renegades.

If anything, you should have questions for Crewman Darnell about this hypocrisy?

498. Simonkey - February 3, 2014

Yep the indiana jones feeling in star trek sounds good…lets have the crew in an adventure with chases ,riddles,and fights like indiana jones and please no more bad guys with big ships…lets explore ,investigate,and use tricoders…

Live long and prosper

499. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

492. DiscoSpock – February 3, 2014

Everything you say on Trek is geared towards criticizing nuTrek on nearly exactly the same topics that you make excuses or “cut slack” on regarding classic Trek.

You’re just selectively reading. Or you’re not getting the concept of trade-offs and cost/benefit with respect to the issues. Saying that an exploding star threatens the entire galaxy, for example, is not necessary to a plot point pertaining to a planet in that system being in jeopardy. A normally exploding star would obviously place that planet in jeopardy. It is factually incorrect to say that an exploding star threatens the entire galaxy, and there is a difference between misrepresenting common physical events, such as supernovae, and inventing a hypothetical technology which does not appear to blatantly violate the laws of physics, such as transparent aluminum, if this technology serves the story in a meaningful way (such as facilitating a dramatic death scene between two of the main characters). Cost/benefit analysis. Look into it.

500. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

“Yep the Indiana Jones feeling in star trek sounds good…lets have the crew in an adventure with chases ,riddles,and fights like Indiana Jones and please no more bad guys with big ships…lets explore ,investigate,and use tricoders…”

Hmm, Indiana Jones had crazy Nazis and crazy tribal bad guys. Not to mention, plenty of big bad ships like aircraft, zeppelins, tanks, ships and even a nuclear bomb explosion. Not to mention God himself showing up twice, with face-melting consequences.

501. Ahmed - February 3, 2014

@497. DiscoSpock

“and Renegades looked to many of us like STID on steroids — Trek going dark, tons of action, lack of story logic, taking the franchise in a direction we don’t want it to go, etc. etc.”

Yes, from the trailer it looked that way & I said back then when the trailer came out that we don’t need another dark edgy Trek, but again this was just a trailer. We should wait & see.

My main point that it is not reasonable to compare a fan film to a multimillion studio movie. We can compare it to other fan films for sure but not to a $190 million dollar movie.

502. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

493. Garak’s Pride – February 3, 2014

“Then, after I pay Bob a compliment…” You mean, after this…

Actually, I was referring to this: 467. Cygnus-X1 – February 1, 2014

503. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

497. DiscoSpock – February 3, 2014

Ahmed, why the unnecessary pot-shot on K-7

What planet do you live on where you feel justified in hectoring anyone about being unnecessarily offensive? I think there’s a 12-step program for that.

504. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

@502

How is me saying in post #497, “Ahmed, why the unnecessary pot-shot on K-7, much different from you just saying to me, “What planet do you live on where you feel justified in hectoring anyone about being unnecessarily offensive” ??

Oh,here is the only difference — my language in my statement was polite and not overly emotional, unlike your rant.

505. Ahmed - February 3, 2014

Cygnus-X1 & DiscoSpock,

FYI, here is a new “Trek” clip by Zachary Quinto and Anton Yelchin :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCXoHvmefhU

506. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

@500

Ahmed, thanks for your response. I understand your point.

507. Ahmed - February 3, 2014

And in another news, Scott Bakula aka Captain Archer will plays the new NCIS boss in a spinoff series.

==============================
‘NCIS’ New Orleans Spinoff: Scott Bakula Nabs Lead Role

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/ncis-new-orleans-spinoff-scott-676348

508. Ahmed - February 3, 2014

@506. DiscoSpock

“Ahmed, thanks for your response. I understand your point.”

You are very welcome :)

509. Keachick - February 3, 2014

I have only just come here and read the article. One thing – Chris Pine did not say he wanted Kirk to go “super dark”, just “dark”. There is a difference. Why do people think it is OK to misquote someone?

I take “dark” to mean that we see Kirk behaving similar to how his darker, nastier side behaved in the TOS episode The Enemy Within or we get to see more of a mean Kirk that we saw only briefly in the Mirror Mirror episode.

If the writers do explore this theme, we need to see Kirk be properly redeemed to be a basically decent, kind, good humoured, well intentioned Kirk. Kirk should not become some sort of anti-hero. There is enough of that already.

Finally to Chris Pine – Please find another character that you could turn into a mean bastard. Capt. James T Kirk of the Starship Enterprise of Star Trek is not! Thank you.

510. Who cares - February 3, 2014

@494. Actually the official lead in to the 2009 movie, IDW’s first Countdown mini-series of which every issue was released before the film came out, was very careful to explain that the Hobus Supernova was not a normal stellar event. For reasons then unknown, but later revealed to be linked to dangerous WMD testing by Reman rebels, the Hobus Supernova wavefront was traveling through space at faster than light speeds and any matter that it engulfed was converted to energy becoming part of the wave.

Now none of that is really all that good science, but then neither is Omega Particles, hiding a ship in a planet’s magnetic pole (first credited to Will Riker in TNG, feat was duplicated by AltChekov in ST09), Holodecks, Transporters, fluidic space, Iconian Gateways, or a torpedo that can terraform a planet in seconds.

511. Ahmed - February 3, 2014

@509. Keachick

“One thing – Chris Pine did not say he wanted Kirk to go “super dark”, just “dark”. There is a difference. (sic) I take “dark” to mean that we see Kirk behaving similar to how his darker, nastier side behaved in the TOS episode The Enemy Within or we get to see more of a mean Kirk that we saw only briefly in the Mirror Mirror episode.”

Here is the quote:

Chris Pine: “Well, for anybody that’s seen [Into Darkness], given the fact Kirk’s been revived by Khan’s blood, I think there’s definitely room for Kirk to go dark, which we’ve obviously seen in the Original Series. That would be fun, I think.”

So basically Kirk will goes dark because he’s been “revived by Khan’s blood”, really ? That is like saying that someone getting a blood transfusion from a racist, will turns into a racist as a result of that !!

512. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

504. DiscoSpock – February 3, 2014

Oh,here is the only difference — my language in my statement was polite and not overly emotional, unlike your rant.

Your language in #492 was “polite and not overly emotional?”

Again, what planet do you live on? Half of your comments to me are bizarre, paranoid accusations. And the other half are just insults and ad hominem slights.

513. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

@511

Agreed, Ahmed. That’s that dumb-ass Spiderman III plot element all over again. NO THANKS!

514. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

@512

Can you just drop the ranting, guy? I picture you right now as all red-faced and slobbering with anger…just relax, man.

This ain’t the real world, like being poor or needing a meal — we are just Trek fans posting for fun here. Lighten up or take a break if you can’t handle criticism any better than your constant rants and negativity.

515. Dave H - February 3, 2014

Cygnus X-1,

Seriously guy, you need to “dial it back” a tad here. I don’t see anyone personally attacking you, here? Some sarcasm, irony and poor attempts at humor, for sure. But you are certainly over-reacting.

Add stop playing the victim card. As someone who constantly poops in the face of all of us who like the new Trek movies, it doesn’t sit well with me to hear you whine like this. Ahmed never behaves like that, and he and I disagree on things all the time.

516. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

514. DiscoSpock – February 3, 2014

Can you just drop the ranting, guy? I picture you right now as all red-faced and slobbering with anger…just relax, man.

I gotta say, that just made me laugh out loud.

Are you for real? It really seems to you like I’m the one ranting here, and to the point of lividity, no less?

And now YOU are asking ME to stop my “ranting?”

Man, you are too funny. Go ahead, carry on. You obviously can’t help your condition or whatever.

517. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

515. Dave H – February 3, 2014

You guys are hilarious!

Oh, do I need to “dial it back,” Captain Propriety?

Gosh, you’ve been so fair-minded and genial, I really feel obliged to do whatever is required so that you are pleased with my comments—just name it!

518. K-7 - February 3, 2014

So this what it is like when someone comes “unglued” online…

519. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

Oh, yeah. Totally unglued. Obviously, I can barely control my sputtering and spewing.

We just need MJ to chime in now in agreement.

Oh, and Red Dead Ryan, too.

520. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

@516

Sure, whatever you say, Cygnus.

:-(

521. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

Aww why the long face?

522. K-7 - February 3, 2014

All, just ignore him.

523. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

Yes, please ignore me. I would prefer that.

524. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

@521

You are trying to bait me into name-calling or getting emotional like you. It’s not going to work.

@522

No, I never back down from bullies. You shouldn’t either. If you go away, he wins.

525. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

And what do I win, exactly?

Besides not having to constantly address wild, ad hominem accusations and mischaracterizations of what I say?

Actually, that seems like a pretty good prize! Please ignore me!

526. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

524. DiscoSpock – February 3, 2014

If it makes it any easier for you, I’m happy to agree to let you be the bully, and that way you can ignore me while saving face.

527. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

@526

Now you have me laughing out loud.

528. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

Well, good!

That’s the spirit!

:-)

529. Dave H - February 3, 2014

@Cygus (to me):

“Gosh, you’ve been so fair-minded and genial.”

When have I ever been unfair or non-genial to you in any exchange that you and I have had here?

I have not agreed with you on much at all, and I have certainly challenged many of your ideas here. But I have never got personal, nor have I not been fair-minded or genial to you ever here?

If you disagree, please provide specific examples? Otherwise, you owe me an apology.

530. boy - February 3, 2014

469. Allison – February 1, 2014

@44 ash

Agree completely. Dark Kirk would be very interesting…if handled right. Otherwise it could be a disaster.

I’ve been dying for some carol/Uhura interaction since I first saw they added another female character. Let’s get on that! Can you imagine how awesome that would be? Dr. Marcus and Uhura sitting down for lunch together and just sharing their genius with each other . Queens. I love it so much. And hopefully now that we’ve seen both in their panties, they could stay fully clothed in the next film. How novel!

And yea, I’m kinda over Spock and Uhura too :/ I didn’t mind it much in ST09, although I could see it was used for some shock value and to add romance to the film that ALL movies seem to require, but in STID I was sick of it. It moved from being harmless to outright annoying. I’d like a clean break from that, but that’s just me.
—————————————————————————-
That’s because the spock/uhura romance went form beautifully written in the first film to it been terribly written in the second film like much of the whole film.

531. Trelane bitch slapped - February 3, 2014

Cygnus,

As you can tell, all these so called people are one and the same sad person. Imagine the personality, the immaturity, the social life etc. of one who spends all his time doing this (especially when he is in his early 50s) trying to control the board.

LLAP

532. K-7 - February 3, 2014

“Trelane bitch slapped”

LOL

Cygnus, is this the best fake identity you could come up with to support yourself with on short notice?

I mean, come on man, at least make it more convincing next time around.

533. Garak's Pride - February 3, 2014

Everyone,

How about we all calm down here, and move onto a different topic?

534. Ahmed - February 3, 2014

@ 533. Garak’s Pride – February 3, 2014

“Everyone,

How about we all calm down here, and move onto a different topic?”

I second that.

535. Red Dead Ryan - February 3, 2014

Jesus H. Christ, I can’t believe Cygnus is still rambling on here. And now he’s resorting to sock-puppeteering while acting defensive and paranoid.

Cygnus — perhaps you ought to take a break from this site for awhile until you come to your senses. Everyone here can tell that you’re somewhat unstable right now, and a brief sabbatical might be in order for you to recalibrate your emotional and mental equilibrium so that you can play nice with everyone else here.

536. Ahmed - February 3, 2014

@535. Red Dead Ryan

Garak’s Pride suggested that we all move on. I hope that you will join us & talk about something different.

537. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

Ahmed and RDR,

Yea, let’s move on. This guy is a bit fragile, and I don’t want to encourage his bad behavior any further.

538. Ahmed - February 3, 2014

@ 537. DiscoSpock – February 3, 2014

“This guy is a bit fragile, and I don’t want to encourage his bad behavior any further.”

I won’t say that Cygnus-X1 is fragile or anything like that. This is just another typical trekmovie “argument” that got out of hand. I was part of these arguments before & I learned that the best thing to do is to move on to a new topic :)

And lets not forget that:

All Of This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again!

So say we all :)

539. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

529. Dave H – February 3, 2014

#170-178, 515.

540. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

531. Trelane bitch slapped – February 3, 2014

Cheers!

541. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

532. K-7 – February 3, 2014
535. Red Dead Ryan – February 3, 2014

Cygnus, is this the best fake identity you could come up with to support yourself with on short notice? I mean, come on man, at least make it more convincing next time around.

Are yours the best imitations of circus-grade morons that you two could come up with?

Cuz they’re brilliant! Very convincing down to the last detail!

542. K-7 - February 3, 2014

Like this is suppose to make us believe this guy is not you? Ha! Ha! Ha!

Nice try, Cygnus!

PS: Hi Trelane Bitch Slapped. Nice to meet you! Tell us a bit about yourself? What is your favorite Star Trek series and movie. Favorite character? Heeheehee….

LOL

===================

540. Cygnus-X1 – February 3, 2014

531. Trelane bitch slapped – February 3, 2014

Cheers!

543. DiscoSpock - February 3, 2014

Seriously,

At the same time, that is both the most obvious as well as the funniest attempt at creating a “self-reinforcing sock-puppet” that I have ever seen on this site.

I got to give Cygnus a A+ for entertainment value on this one. If nothing else, the guy makes me laugh a lot, and that’s not a bad thing.

Thanks, Cygnus!

544. Red Shirt Diaries - February 3, 2014

When is “Stinky Armpits Harry Mudd” going to show up here and support Cygnus?

545. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

543. DiscoSpock – February 3, 2014

I’m sincerely glad to be a part of the comedy, but I can’t take any of the credit for it.

:-)

546. Cygnus-X1 - February 3, 2014

531. Trelane bitch slapped – February 3, 2014

You’re a huge hit!

Thanks again for your comment.

547. MJ - February 3, 2014

Sheesh,

Looking at all the posts from today, I could either spend 2 hours trying to make sense of it all, or have a beer and watch some tv.

Beer and TV it is…..

548. Andorian - February 4, 2014

DiscoSpock,

You are like the Simon Cowell of Trekmovie.com. An a-hole/jerk, but one who usually get’s things right.

Cygnus-X-1,

You are like the Miley Cyrus of Trekmovie.com. You show us all your body parts, but no one can remember any of your songs

549. Disinvited - February 4, 2014

#496. DiscoSpock – February 3, 2014

Your observations regarding the writer’s strike effects on 2009’s galaxy threat faux paux could only be plausible if you ignore certain inconvenient truths:

1. The 2009 film’s science advisor wasn’t hired until AFTER the script was completed and principal photography had already been half-completed. Her role was primarily to check the accuracy of the film’s space look and not script fact checking.

2. Paramount’s initial release date was in 2008 and Abrams had it in the can for that date. Paramount pushed the release date up and JJ had time to make changes up unto its actual release much as Orci professed they did with STID..

3. Bad Robot specifically developed 3D lip tech to reshoot Nimoy’s cave lines and so did, but still, even after going to all that trouble and extra expense, muffed the opportunity to improve the science, just a tad, in that scene.

550. TUP - February 4, 2014

i LOVE the people that are so superior that they attack the person posting rather than debate the post. A few of you are class acts. You know who you are. i’d be angry except Im far more amused at the lack of intelligence.

To the others – I’m not saying losing your father would not cause kirk to have issues. Im saying its a classic Hollywood story. Its like the writers took their big book of Hollywood cliches and turned to the chapter entitled “boy hero loses father” and it spelled out exactly how the plot would go.

As far as having no father impacting Kirk’s old universe tendancies and exaggerating them, how do we know his tendancies werent the result of HAVING a father.

All Im saying is, it’s a far more interesting story if the Kirk we know rose above the loss of his father. And dont tell me he eventually did. He didnt. Pike “dared” him to do better than his father…how lame. The context was bad.

And further, this Kirk who grew up without a father then uses Spock’s grief against him? Dispicable really. Not to mention the stupidity of that entire plot point (Kirk being thrown off the ship).

What Orci et al badely need is someone who challenges them so they dont get lazy.

551. Allison - February 4, 2014

@boy

Wellllll….I don’t know that I’d call it beautifully written in the first movie lol, but I did find it less annoying. Maybe that’s because it was new and a surprise, but once the shock value wore off I was no longer interested. In the second movie it just seemed like a time filler and something to add more drama for Spock. If you liked that, great! I personally found it uninteresting and forced, but oh well.

Again, just my opinion :)

552. MJ - February 4, 2014

@#550

Multiple people thought you were dead wrong on the “stereotype” issue. Whining that “others are out to get me” ain’t going to change the fact that you were dead wrong on this.

553. MJ - February 4, 2014

@548

Cygnus on Star Trek?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6Lb3kFwJRQ

;-0

554. MJ - February 4, 2014

@549.

I think Disco’s point was that that Trek 2009 “script is locked” excuse was equivalent to the WOK excuse that the WOK script was rushed and under-budgeted. So yea, the 2009 script excuse and the WOK script excuse are both weak.

That, I think, was the point of his comparison — that Cygnus himself provided a weak-ass excuse for the errors in the WOK script, but that he was dismissive of a similarly weak-ass excuse that was already known about the Trek 2009 script. Both are weak and questionable — I completely agree. That is the point.

555. Commodore Adams - February 4, 2014

I’m easy, give me a substancial amount of Klingons, some D-7 class battle cruisers and I’ll be happy.

556. TUP - February 4, 2014

MJ – I never said that did I? Whether 1 person or 10 think i’m wrong doesnt make it so.

usually the way things go here is, if you dont worship at the feet of Bob orci you are considered a “NuTrekHATER!!!!”.

I liked both films. But the issues with STID make 09, in retrospect, less satisfying. Whereas I enjoyed 09, STID indicated the small issues with 09 were in fact, big problems with the writing.

557. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - February 4, 2014

@MJ

Good point. The WOK science error excuses are certainly on the same level of the Star Trek 09 science error excuses.

There is no valid reason why anyone should be promulgating a double-standard here when comparing these science problem issues between the two greatest ST movies of all time.

If anything, there are more science gaffs in WOK than Star Trek 09.

558. Queen to Kings level 1 - February 4, 2014

554 Sorry you michael jackson wannabee salt creature.;^) STD was endless plot holes from start to finish. In comparison WoK (from which it was poorly plagiarized), is a masterpiece. From the classic pathos of Wok to the bathos of STD. Sorry but you really are delusional.

559. Keachick - February 4, 2014

#511 – I don’t know if Chris Pine was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with that statement you quoted or not. Possibly. He could have been referring to Dr McCoy’s first comment/quip, when Kirk regained consciousness, asking if Kirk was feeling despotic etc to which Kirk replied (in jest), “No more than usual”.

This may be some kind of urban legend or perhaps it is actually true. There was a report that some people who were the recipients of donor organs started to take on some of the speech/personality traits, even bits of memory, of their dead donors. Relatives and friends did not think that these people were quite the same, except externally (physically).

If memory serves, I believe I first came across this in one of William Shatner’s series Weird or What?…hmmmm….

560. Ahmed - February 4, 2014

@556. Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle

“There is no valid reason why anyone should be promulgating a double-standard here when comparing these science problem issues between the two greatest ST movies of all time.

If anything, there are more science gaffs in WOK than Star Trek 09.”

WOK was released in 1982, Star Trek 09 was released in 2009.

By the time ST09 was released in theaters, there was something called the INTERNET, a computer network where you can double check any scientific information & get in touch with others who might know more.

And it doesn’t make any sense to say that it is ok that ST 09 has these scientific errors because another movie that came out 30 years ago had similar issues.

561. Keachick - February 4, 2014

#550 – No, not “classic Hollywood story” – just “classic” (as in quite common and since the beginning) human theme – ie the various effects on a child who has had no father and/or mother, or suitable substitutes, to bring him/her up.

Spock was actually the first person to use Kirk’s loss of his father on his birthday, against him in a very public manner. Now that could be described as rather dEspicable. Kirk used Spock’s grief against him because he was actually told to do so by the actual older prime universe Spock, something I am not sure Kirk would have necessarily thought to do himself.

What is lame about challenging a person to do/be better than one’s father? I think there is a Greek saying which translates as “Be a better man than your father” or something like that. The thing is – Pike somehow knew what would stimulate/challenge Kirk to do/be more than what he was doing and it worked!

And about denigrating the intelligence of others commenting here? Please don’t!

562. Keachick - February 4, 2014

Shows like Star Trek will always have science errors or gaffs because, usually, the writers/producers are not scientists, and they are trying to imagine what life and technology might be like years from now, in Star Trek’s, 250 years from now. It is actually quite a tough call, even if they were experts scientists, and it does require a certain suspension of disbelief on the part of viewers. There will always be “errors”. The biggest error is to expect that such futuristic shows like Star Trek would not have some.

Anyway, most of the errors that people have complained about in connection with ST09 have been explained scientifically. It is just that some people do not understand, despite repeated attempts to make the explanations as simple as possible. However, my sons understood without even needing a second viewing…Go figure.

563. Curious Cadet - February 4, 2014

@558 Ahmed,

You said it best in your post @466:

“And since TWOK & the rest of Trek movies are full of scientific inaccuracies & plot holes, then it is very reasonable that we encourage the nuTrek writers to continue with that tradition & write movies full of plot holes & scientific inaccuracies!”

This tired straw man is trotted out every single time someone criticizes any of the scientific accuracy of the Bad Robot films. Rather than debate the current issue, most immediately target how such problems were overlooked by fans in earlier films (which they weren’t). Then suddenly the debate is about defending previous films, rather than focusing on the deficiencies of the current ones. Classic debate technique.

564. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - February 4, 2014

@Ahmed

If that was true, then why, in general, do many sf movies have many more errors, and take many more shortcuts, then sf movies of the 70’s? By your logic, the Internet should be fixing all of this? But of course, it’s not happening.

At first glance your comment is logical; but it is simply not the case in reality today. Even on “Gravity” — why didn’t they use the Internet to have more realistic distances between the space stations…the Internet was there as you suggest…so why didn’t they apply your internet check?

2001, Silent Running, Colossus, The Omega Man, THX 1138, Solaris, Soylent Green, Westworld, Close Encounters, Alien, Star Trek TMP — all of these movies were actually before WOK, and they got the science much better in spite of the supposed huge disadvantage of not having the Internet?

In fact, one could argue that the late 60′ through early 80’s was the best period of all for sf movies being generally more accurate as compared to other movie periods of time. Again, NO INTERNET.

So your excuse-making regarding the internet for WOK just doesn’t hold up very well upon further examination.

I know I will get crucified here for saying this, but Nick Meyer and Harve Bennett were simply too lazy to want to get the science right in that movie. However, one can understand their perspective. TMP got the science right, and was a boring movie; hence, the focus on WOK was to get the story right, and the science thing was not very important. So I can forgive them, and of course we all enjoy WOK as a great dramatic, action-packed bad guy movie.

565. Admiral Archer's Prize Beagle - February 4, 2014

@Curious Cadet

“Then suddenly the debate is about defending previous films, rather than focusing on the deficiencies of the current ones. Classic debate technique.”

Nope. Speak for yourself. I was specifically responding to Ahmed’s theory that the Internet should be giving us less scientific errors in scifi movies. That is obviously not happening.

566. Andorian - February 4, 2014

If anything, the Internet is responsible for dumbing down everything in the media.

567. Keachick - February 4, 2014

The biggest scientific “error” is warp drive or hyper drive…

Frankly, this debate is so much drivel.

568. Disinvited - February 4, 2014

#554. MJ – February 4, 2014

Weak indeed, especially considering the strike ended before JJ completed principle photography and he had nigh on a year to fix any problems with the script in post as well.

As for Meyer being rushed, I would give some consideration to the fact that he didn’t have access to professional script editing software like the screenwriters of today would to piece together segments of the previous hired writers into a coherent whole at the push of a button. I believe you acknowledge WoK did more with less which is pretty amazing when we consider that it is still held in such high regard that even the more modern screenwriters with more resources felt the need to draw on it.

I’m going to employ some hyperbole here: The problem I see with dragging WoK into this argument is that if it truly can be successfully argued that it is this pitiful pitiful thing when compared to the 2009 effort then why did that same brilliant 2009 creative team then decide to inject WoK’s (weak?) script blood into their own?

569. MJ - February 4, 2014

“I believe you acknowledge WoK did more with less which is pretty amazing when we consider that it is still held in such high regard that even the more modern screenwriters with more resources felt the need to draw on it.”

But that, in and of itself, is misleading. They had all the sets, the special effects infrastructure, the actors, and the production history of TMP that immediately preceded that. Whereas, for Star Trek 2009, EVERYTHING HAD TO BE DEVELOPED FROM SCRATCH.

So just to commend WOK as being so incredibly frugal ignores the huge investment and other “baselining” that was already done for them by TMP.

570. Ahmed - February 4, 2014

@562. Admiral Archer’s Prize Beagle

“So your excuse-making regarding the internet for WOK just doesn’t hold up very well upon further examination.”

But I’m not excusing the errors in WOK, I’m simply stating that nowadays it is easier to check scientific facts, heck even the fans here can do that. The fact that previous movies made mistakes, doesn’t mean that we forgive new movies for making similar mistakes.

” I was specifically responding to Ahmed’s theory that the Internet should be giving us less scientific errors in scifi movies. That is obviously not happening.”

And why it is not happening in the case of new Trek ? Because the writers are lazy or they think it will make for a boring movie ?

571. MJ - February 4, 2014

@564 “If anything, the Internet is responsible for dumbing down everything in the media.”

Yep!

@562 “I know I will get crucified here for saying this, but Nick Meyer and Harve Bennett were simply too lazy to want to get the science right in that movie. However, one can understand their perspective. TMP got the science right, and was a boring movie; hence, the focus on WOK was to get the story right, and the science thing was not very important. So I can forgive them, and of course we all enjoy WOK as a great dramatic, action-packed bad guy movie.”

Well put. Their focus, understandably at the time, was focused almost exclusively on the story and the characters. Science was way at the back in terms of priorities…and unfortunately, that laziness and near-complete disregard for simple science fact checking, really shows now in retrospect.

572. Ahmed - February 4, 2014

@569. MJ

” Science was way at the back in terms of priorities…and unfortunately, that laziness and near-complete disregard for simple science fact checking, really shows now in retrospect.”

What a tragic !! Thank God that nuTrek saved the day & got the science right down to the molecules!

573. MJ - February 4, 2014

@568

“But I’m not excusing the errors in WOK, I’m simply stating that nowadays it is easier to check scientific facts, heck even the fans here can do that. The fact that previous movies made mistakes, doesn’t mean that we forgive new movies for making similar mistakes.”

But I think Beagle’s point was, why then aren’t sf movies doing that? We just aren’t getting these improved science facts in sf movies since the Internet. In fact, it’s gotten progressively worse. So what you are saying should happen, is obviously not happening — and it’s a “system-wide problem” that basically it hitting nearly every sf movie we see now.

574. MJ - February 4, 2014

“What a tragic !! Thank God that nuTrek saved the day & got the science right down to the molecules!”

No, although I realized you are being sarcastic, with this statement you are now you are applying the double-standard in the other direction, which is just as wrong as Cygness. The correct, fair and level playing field assessment, is that the two best Trek movies of all time — WOK and ST-2009, both had some lazy science in them. Neither should get a free pass on these with weak excuses like the writers strike, the internet, etc. etc. No double-standard is needed here — both are kind of on the same page here.

575. Keachick - February 4, 2014

What science relating to a futuristic fictional reality are writers and co. getting wrong? I am not being facetious or anything. I just can’t see what the objections are, other than the ones already made, eg transwarp beaming, supernova or world destroying volcanic eruption.

576. Ahmed - February 4, 2014

@572. MJ

The truth is that these scientific errors in movies, don’t bother me that much, unless it were something so obvious. Other than that, I just enjoy watching movies & maybe on my 3rd or 4th viewing, if the movie was really good, I will pay attention to these errors if there are any.

IMHO, the story & characters are what should matters at the end of the day.

577. MJ - February 4, 2014

@574.

Valid point!

578. Cygnus-X1 - February 4, 2014

548. Andorian – February 4, 2014

Cygnus-X-1, You are like the Miley Cyrus of Trekmovie.com. You show us all your body parts, but no one can remember any of your songs

And we’ve got another guy who constantly complains that I repeat myself.

I think that you do have a point, though. I don’t know if it’s willful ignorance or that my reasoning is too complicated for some people, but I have noticed a pattern whereby some people keep making the same argument in response to me as though I haven’t already addressed it. It’s happening right now with the “TWOK was just as bad with science as BR Trek, therefore it’s not valid to criticize BR Trek for bad science,” which is clearly wrong.

579. Who cares - February 4, 2014

I will admit to a double standard towards scientific accuracy in movies. I expect more accuracy from movies supposedly set in the “real world” like Gravity, Deep Impact, and so on than I expect from movies like Star Trek, Star Wars, and other films whose setting already rely on large amounts of fictional (and impossible according to our current scientific understanding) technology.

There are films that blur the lines between the two, like 2001, but it is generally pretty easy to decide where a movie falls.

580. K-7 - February 4, 2014

#576

How about, “Miley Cygnus” — a nickname for Cygnus, perhaps?

;-)

581. Cygnus-X1 - February 4, 2014

I’ll take it!

582. Red Dead Ryan - February 4, 2014

Miley Cygnus = little in the way of substance, but the diva act results in a lot of exposure and publicity!.

On the issue of scientific accuracy in movies, I’d like things to be logical and believable in Trek but not at the expense of good stories and characters.

Trek has been more about presenting ideas rather than scientific facts anyway.

Trek tends to get bogged down in boring minutia when it tries to explain every little scientific detail behind technological and scientific concepts in various shows and movies. Trek works best when it presents ideas and concepts as a plot device as opposed to a lesson in science. In short, just show us just enough of how things function so that we get the idea without it all becoming over the top and ridiculous.

583. Disinvited - February 5, 2014

#569. MJ – February 4, 2014

Well, I definitely agree there’s no level field on which to compare the two movies’ mettles, science or otherwise.

However, to return to their own blood metaphor, hasn’t Bad Robot by virtue of injecting WoK into their other script, STID, indelibly contaminated their fictional universe with the WoK scriptwriting, i.e. warts, which likely includes some bad science, and all?

584. Me - February 5, 2014

“I thin the argument could be made that, convincingly, that in this universe it’s the Federation that’s the authoritarian regime.” (sic)

Wow. You just made Barack Obama Federation President.

585. Marja - February 5, 2014

562 Keachick, “…errors have been explained scientifically” … I don’t know if I’d agree with that so much. I think most of the errors occurred for the convenience of the writers trying to cram a 2.5-hour story into 2 hoursand to accommodate the rush-rush-rush. We in fanfic call this “handwavium.” As you say, writers writing fiction explaining ideas in a fictional universe :-)

And I agree with you, waaayyy too many posts of people knocking each other instead of discussing the issues brought up in the original posts. I just scrolled through 50 or 80 posts of this stuff, criminey.

C’mon guys, this is the same kind of energy you used to expend on Ahmed’s “Sin” a few months ago! …

One of the few interesting points y’all have brought up during that exchange was that the “science” in TWOK was equally as bad as in the new movies.

It was pure, unadulterated Star Trek “handwavium”! There were some scientific points fictionally extrapolated and some “scientific points” that beggar the imagination.

It has ever been thus in Trek.

Interesting points from Disinvited far above this post; I had no idea the scientific consultant was called on after the film was in the can. Too bad …

PAGING RAND CORPORATION

======================================================
And I certify for the record that I am not a NuTrek Hater. I’m a fan of 40+ years who’s mildly critical of all Star Trek and still love it. That’s why I’m here, guys, to talk about my love for Trek and its characters but exercise some critical facility ….

586. I am not Herbert - February 5, 2014

…streamed a pretty good movie last night =)

“Europa Report”: In this nail-biting thriller, a private space-exploration company sends six astronauts to determine whether Europa, one of Jupiter’s moons, can sustain life — and what they find terrifies and transforms them.

https://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Europa%20Report/70276016?trkid=438403

587. I am not Herbert - February 5, 2014

re: the “science” of nu-trek…

it is the worst kind of stupidly laughable fakeness ever seen in Trek or modern Sci-Fi… it is unwitting self-parody…

nu-trek is so FAKE, it makes me sick… =(

I would be embarrassed to be associated with nu-trek production =(

Galaxy Quest is better… (eyesroll)

588. Red Dead Ryan - February 5, 2014

#587. I am not Herbert

“… it is unwitting self-parody…”

Yeah, I agree. Your posts are unintentionally funny, I’ll give you that! :-)

“nu-trek is so FAKE, it makes me sick… =(”

If you’re sick, why are you even on this site? Shouldn’t you go lie down? Heck, I would suggest that you stop watching all “Star Trek” period, as it is entirely fake. None of it’s real, dude.

“I would be embarrassed to be associated with nu-trek production =(”

Not to worry, I’m sure the nu-Trek production team would feel the same way if they were associated with you! :-)

589. Who cares - February 5, 2014

@I am Not Herbert. You do realize that to the majority of the scientific community Warp Drive, Transporters, and EVERY other piece of Trek Tech is so laughably fake and stupid its not even worth discussing right.

I mean come on, if the scientific community believed that FTL travel was really a possibility then they wouldn’t teach the THEORY of Relativity as if it was a fact.

And where exactly is the good science in older Trek? Is it in Spock’s Brain? Is it in Unnatural Selection? Maybe it is in Prime Factors? How about False Prophets?

Once again you show that you aren’t even stopping to honestly compare the new Trek to the old.

590. Phil - February 5, 2014

@587. As opposed to the science of old Trek. Come on man, beating a dead horse isn’t going to get it to move. Old Trek got so bad in the science department that it just resorted to solving problems by throwing a force field around the problem, or ‘tuning’ the frequency of phasers or photon torpedoes. It’s all fiction, bordering on fantasy.

591. K-7 - February 5, 2014

“I would be embarrassed to be associated with nu-trek production =(”

Hell, I am embarrassed for all Star Trek fans that come to this site and your juvenile rants and fake humor.

You are the kind of fan that has caused all the negative public stereotypes to be developed for all of us.

592. Kenji - February 5, 2014

@582

Yes! The fun part of Trek science is when it creates a what-if scenario that is then explored.

e.g. What if you could time travel? Would you use your knowledge of the future to save the woman you love in the past? (Guardian of Forever)

What if our minds were not limited to perceiving time as flowing in one direction? (All Good Things)

The most ridiculous, time-wasting, insulting aspects of Trek science:

1. When one character explains that we need to reverse the polarity of the mumbledumblebumblebronium ions in the matrix of obesevirgindorkium, and the other characters listen anxiously to this lengthy explanation.

It’s a wrong use of screen time, killing story momentum.

The science-ishness is not the problem. Far-fetched tech is totally fine, just as magic and dragons and angels are totally fine; import rule is to be consistent. (A New Hope explained the Force as mystical and magical; The Phantom Menace explained that it was a biological energy, which RUINS THE FORCE.)

But we don’t need to have its workings explained. The more tech explanation we get, the more absurdity and inaccuracy is revealed. Why go there? What’s the payoff? You’re already on a ship that flies faster than light and has artificial gravity – it’s not like we’re watching a documentary.

If you like that stuff, get it from the spinoff books. I’m happy to read Sternbach and Okuda on warp fields, or to hunt through Franz Joseph’s blueprints to find the Captain’s bidet, because then I can take the time to do so. In good drama, the guiding principles are momentum and conflict. We wonder when Hamlet is going to take action against his murderous stepfather, not whether Elsinore has a ducting system for wastewater.

2. Technobabble as solution.

“Captain, if we reverse the polarity of the main deflector dish we can break free of the tractor beam!” “Make it so!” (Cut to exterior shot of particles streaming from ship, then ship suddenly accelerating away from the cosmic space anomaly monster thingus.)

How embarassing.

TNG did this a lot, but was actually a well-written drama at times. Voyager did this so often, with so little compensatory story virtue, that I gave up on it entirely.

Why does this suck? Because it is an instant, painless solution.

Drama is not about instant, painless solutions. It is about difficult decisions. Should I enter the radiation chamber? Is Karidian really the Butcher? Do I fire on that miner-eating pan pizza before it gets away, or do I try to talk to it?

Each solution should solve the main problem while also exacting a cost. If a problem can be solved by flipping a couple of switches, it should not be the focal problem of the story.

For example, ST09 has the scene in which the black hole is dragging in the ‘Prise so they try to kick out from it by blowing their antimatter fuel stores just outside the ship. It’s a fun scene but if that’s all that the movie was about, it would be a ripoff. The main decision – the thing that the movie is really about – was made earlier: i.e. Kirk, who knows he’s right but doesn’t have the authority to go after the Nerada, deliberately manipulating an emotionally devastated Spock in order to seize the chair. That’s *the* pivot. That’s a hard decision, rooted in character, that drives the story to its conclusion. That’s good writing.

That’s what we need next time.

593. I am not Herbert - February 5, 2014

…just my opinion ;-)

re: REAL science – you will be AMAZED when the TRUTH comes out… ;-)

plus: i won’t insult you or try to beat you up for having an (apparently?) different opinion… =)

LLAP

594. I am not Herbert - February 5, 2014

NO.

you all have the same outlook as Boborci… that it all just fantasy, and who cares if it makes sense scientifically…

just NO.

it’s called SCIENCE FICTION for a reason.

STAR TREK IS NOT FANTASY. OK?

595. Who cares - February 5, 2014

@I am Not Herbert.

You are missing the primary part of the phrase there. Namely the word FICTION, this is not fact, nor was it ever fact, how bout you talk about how many times in TNG and later the word Isometric was used for some sort of energy, when in fact it is a kind of exercise routine, maybe we can talk about Metephasic shields (you know the ones that let you fly around inside a star’s corona), maybe we could talk about a little box on someone’s belt that reduces a human being to a geometric shape, or bombarding a planet with massive amounts of “harmless” ultraviolet radiation. Good lord man the “science” of Trek has always been pure fantasy no matter what you think about it.

It didn’t stop Stephen Hawkings from guest starring (as one of Data’s holographic poker buddies) on TNG despite the fact that (as far as I know) he doesn’t believe that FTL travel will ever be possible and that any fiction that includes that element is by default pure fantasy.

596. I am not Herbert - February 5, 2014

IMHO, Mr. Hawkings is small-minded in some ways… he is certainly xenophobic with regard to ET civilizations…

I won’t bother arguing your ridiculous assertion re: the fiction in science fiction… LOL! =D

yes, it is not documentary… yes, we have advanced current scientific theory since the ’60s… but Star Trek is a FUNCTIONAL Universe, one that is MUCH closer to reality than you seem be be capable of imagining… =(

nu-trek is just stupidly fake… I think it is intentionally trying to make Star Trek look like fantasy… and you townies just eat it up… =(

597. Kenji - February 5, 2014

@594

Trek is not even remotely close to being about science, in which science propells everything we see – if we are talking about Hard SF.

As David Gerrold pointed out in his book on Trek, the Enterprise is hugely wasteful. The hallways are wide and tall, and the lights are always on. This was done because of the exigencies of filming, but the implication is that the ship has power to burn. Therefore, we should not expect stories about how the Enterprise is close to running out of fuel or air, because of that was really a potential consideration, the ship would not look like that.

Trek ships have some sort of artificial gravity. That was done, again, to make the show practical to film, but it isn’t a valid idea. Artificial gravity was addressed in TUC as a story point, where it became visually interesting, but let’s not pretend it’s scientifically true.

If you want an example of real science fiction, consider “Gravity.” While the scenarios in that movie are a bit fudged from reality (e.g. the space stations being in line-of-sight), everything that happens in Cuaron’s much-admired 3D production proceeds from a scientifically valid premise. Inertia and momentum are huge deals in that movie, in a way that they just aren’t in Trek.

Trek is not about real space, Trek is about adventurous and exciting colourful fake space, a space where aliens speak English and there is a convenient up and down orientation almost all the time (the exception being that shot in ST09 that tracks the Kelvin into an inverted posture – a true understanding that there is no up or down without gravity – but of course you deride Nu Trek).

Now, Trek does play with science-y ideas, as I’ve pointed out. It’s at its best when it does that: taking a what-if (what if we met a girl who has total empathy? or if we meet a civilization that has forgotten that it is inside a travelling colony sphere?) and inserting it into a universe that is, actually, our own world. It is all told from an America-centric, 60s idealist perspective.

But it’s way out on a limb in terms of plausibility. And that’s fine. I suspend my critical disbelief. How else am I supposed to watch stories like Spectre of the Gun, The Deadly Years, Spock’s Brain?

I love the Trek world, but I also love Watership Down and don’t think that there is a “FUNCTIONAL Universe” of talking rabbits – it is a metaphor.

Metaphors are good. =)

598. Cygnus-X1 - February 5, 2014

592. Kenji – February 5, 2014

I agree with you, up to a point. Too much technobabble in Trek gets ridiculous, but the right amount can add gravitas and drama to the scene, in the same way that it does in movies like The Hunt for Red October, for example. Yes, the technology being babbled in Trek about is all hypothetical, but viewers with an interest in physics or engineering can appreciate technobabble that is accurate, and it can enhance the drama for everyone else. Good science fiction and good technobabble knows where it is departing from the known/practical into the unknown/hypothetical and why it is so departing. A simple example that comes to mind is the Heisenberg Compensator concept introduced in TNG. People who know a bit about physics had complained (like some people do here) that the premise of disassembling an object molecule by molecule (or particle by particle) was problematic due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which basically states that the more you know about the position of a given particle, the less you can know about the velocity of that particle. And since knowing the exact positions and velocities of particles was necessary for reassembling objects via Trek transporter technology, some astute person in the TNG production came up with the simple solution of the Heisenberg Compensator. What exactly does the Heisenberg Compensator do, and how does it work? Don’t worry about that; it’s a secret. The point was to let the more precision-minded viewers know that TNG was not taking them for granted or being dumbed down and that it, as a work of science fiction, it cared about not offending their scientific sensibilities. Compare this with the BR Trek movies.

Yes! The fun part of Trek science is when it creates a what-if scenario that is then explored.

That’s exactly right. And a good example of this is the Genesis Device in TWOK. It’s obviously a fantastical conceit, and the suspension of disbelief asked of the audience is readily apparent—this is the “cost” of that sci-fi premise. But, what we got from that conceit in terms of story, themes, corollaries and so forth was its payoff—its “benefits.” Compare this with Spock’s magic space-suit in STID, which allows him to stand inside a volcano while the state-of-the-art space ship capable of sustaining particle-weapons fire and traveling faster than light, The Enterprise, has to high-tail it out of there before it burns to a crisp. There are clearly different mindsets, rationales and value-systems at work in these two conceits, even though both of them share the quality of being unrealistic.

The most ridiculous, time-wasting, insulting aspects of Trek science: 1. When one character explains that we need to reverse the polarity of the mumbledumblebumblebronium ions in the matrix of obesevirgindorkium, and the other characters listen anxiously to this lengthy explanation. It’s a wrong use of screen time, killing story momentum.

Depends how it’s done. There’s no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sometimes technobabble works, as it often did in TNG. VOY, on the other hand, is replete with examples where it didn’t work. The science got sloppy and increasingly fantastical, and it was apparent that the deus ex machina as plot device was being overly relied upon.

The science-ishness is not the problem. Far-fetched tech is totally fine, just as magic and dragons and angels are totally fine; import rule is to be consistent.

Star Trek was traditionally a science fiction franchise. Traditionally Trek CARED about science. Trek PROMOTED science as a good value that was important for the betterment of humanity. “Consistency” with respect to Trek means trying your best to root your departures from reality in science—and, in my opinion, to use them as sparingly as possible, being conscious of the cost/benefits of doing so. If you’re going to run up a bill with fantastical conceits that ask much of the audience in terms of suspending disbelief, then you’d better be giving the audience a good payoff in terms of story and themes. BR Trek runs up bills that are unnecessary and it doesn’t pay for them—like having the exploding star threaten the entire galaxy instead of just the relevant planet, Romulus; and writing the action scene (which is completely arbitrary and can be written in any number of ways) so that Spock’s space-suit appears to be violating the laws of physics established for and in the movie.

599. Who cares - February 5, 2014

@I am Not Herbert. First I know exactly how close Trek is to reality, you are the one who is utterly delusional about it, and I will take the scientific opinions of Stephen Hawkings over yours until the heat death of the universe, because he is an actual scientist and you are a random a–hat on the internet. Saying Trek is close to reality is just a very clear sign that you have lost your grip on reality, Trek is made up solely for entertainment purposes, it is not fact, it is not science, it is not accurate, and Gene created it to make a buck and get laid not for any noble humanistic purpose.

Second I am not going to bother arguing your idiocy any longer.

600. I am not Herbert - February 5, 2014

you don’t know what you are talking about, LOL =D

…but yeah, let’s agree to disagree ;-)

601. Kenji - February 5, 2014

@598

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Yeah, STID has a lot of problems.

I liked some of STID – good performances, good effects, and I would argue a good understanding of Trek tropes – but the movie also irked me.

You’ve identified an issue with the suit that I hadn’t considered before, but it fits in with my objection to the way the movie doesn’t just defy science (as I have pointed out, I don’t watch Trek for accuracy) but because it shows inconsistency: in this case, either a volcano is too hot for Federation tech, or it isn’t.

The destruction of Vulcan by some sort of shock wave of a supernova didn’t bother me because it wasn’t contradicted. In the Trekverse, apparantly, supernovas have shockwaves, you see. It isn’t like they followed this scene with another supernova that had no shockwave.

Re technobabble, I’m definitely for a judicious use of any sort of insider or foreign language, signage etc that helps establish verisimilitude for the audience. War movies do this routinely, and now we know what a full metal jacket means, or termination with extreme prejudice. That’s the verbal equivalent of detailed set-dressing. You want the Enterprise to be crewed by professionals, most of whom have the equivalent of a master’s in a technical field or fields, and all of them are qualified astronauts, so of course they may be speaking in obscurities from time to time.

But Berman-era Trek was so notorious for it that I have no taste for any substantive conversations in this made-up language, unless you can somehow play off of it for humour or to reveal an aspect of character. I’m all about the dramatic resonance and having every scene serve the theme of the story.

Consider Pulp Fiction, which paused for lengthy and irrelevant conversations between the hitmen. This was great, because you see that they are people with thoughts other than thoughts about being hitmen. The conversations also set up payoffs down the line. Trek conversations are often pointless (from a dramatic perspective) debate about whether the thingie can be made to do a thingie if we just adjust a thingie. Zzzzzzzz. That’s not important. What is important is the decision: should we use it and save the ship, knowing that using it will probably kill 30% of the crew? Now that’s interesting.

Finally, as for promoting science, YES. Let’s get Treks that promote scientific thought, as opposed to sciency-sounding jargon and the machine that goes “pew-pew-boop.”

Let’s have Kirk face a seemingly complex problem, Scotty make a theory and test it and validate it, McCoy oppose it on humanist grounds, Spock advocate it on rationalist grounds, and then see how Kirk is going to cut the Gordian knot with his sly cunning and command presence, which is the point of the show, IMO.

602. Marja - February 5, 2014

592 Kenji, I hope you will be around this board a lot more!

I stopped watching Voyager for the same reasons as you did. I only knew the babble-icious bullsh*t bored me to tears, but what you say helps me understand why technobabble pisses me off as a story element.

It’s just people working against time [usually a terribly short time] using some BS solution. Solutions don’t come out of character or difficult choices.

“Belanna! How long do we have before the warp core blows?”
“Ten minutes, Captain!”
“You have eight!”
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

603. Marja - February 5, 2014

And one never knows, perhaps Tarantino’s three characters discussing a Mexican Stand-off while in just that situation was Tarantino sending up Trek ;-)

604. Marja - February 5, 2014

598 Cygnus, “Compare this with Spock’s magic space-suit in STID, which allows him to stand inside a volcano while the state-of-the-art space ship capable of sustaining particle-weapons fire and traveling faster than light, The Enterprise, has to high-tail it out of there before it burns to a crisp. ”

In all fairness, I don’t think that’s why Enterprise high-tailed it out of there. I think it was “we got Spock out,we saved Nibiru, let’s boogie.”

Course all that stuff about a volcano destroying a planet might be BS [though I remember a certain Icelandic volcano that had us all panicking for a short time a few years back; would it speed global warming or interfere too much with the sun's light; was the next ice age on the horizon?] [probably newscaster hyperbole].

Your points and Kenji’s about realistic-sounding jargon hit home for sure, when I’m in a theatre watching a movie involving a military ship and someone says something using the slang I remember or the abbreviations I remember it jibes and sounds authentic.

UNlike “Oh-five-thirty hours” – makes me wince every time. It’s ZERO, eejits! “Zero Dark Thirty” got it right ;-)

But you want to have a military advisor on hand. You want to make sure the ribbons and nametags are right. You want to make sure they say “Port” instead of “Left” – mistakes like that screw up your “authenticity.”

In Trek, most of the time, they tried to keep the universe consistent, but that didn’t always happen. As you point out David Gerrold had SO many good points in his critique of Star Trek.

A fictional world should WORK, like our real world does; its rules should be consistent, present problems, and require solutions. DRAMATIC solutions.

“City on the Edge of Forever” had lots of tantalizing questions [Who built these Guardians? How do these work? How can one person affect the flow of time? Why do we constantly have time travel paradoxes in Trek?] but the DRAMATIC question at the heart of it is, “Will we be prepared when the opportunity to right the flow of time comes along, and are we prepared to enact the solution to our problem?”

And they were, but it involved a choice that tore Kirk’s heart out.

605. Cygnus-X1 - February 5, 2014

604. Marja – February 5, 2014

In all fairness, I don’t think that’s why Enterprise high-tailed it out of there. I think it was “we got Spock out,we saved Nibiru, let’s boogie.”

No, before that.

First, the shuttle-craft high-tails it out of there because it can’t stand the heat of the volcano. Then, Scotty tells Kirk that he can’t guarantee that the Enterprise would be able to withstand the heat of the volcano if they get the ship close enough to be able to see Spock so that they can beam him out. They wind up beaming Spock out with the Enterprise, and then the ship makes a bee-line for outer space. But both the shuttle-craft and the Enterprise are portrayed as less resistant to heat than Spock’s magical suit.

606. TUP - February 6, 2014

@605 HAHAHA thats a very good point. Another item in the “poor lazy writing” column.

607. I am not Herbert - February 6, 2014

Marja; the one I’ve heard is “Oh-dark-hundred”…

…should it be Zero-dark-hundred? ;-)

nu-trek is sorely wanting in command structure / protocol =(

they’re like a bunch of petulant teenagers yelling at each other… =(

608. I am not Herbert - February 6, 2014

…yeah, the nu-trek writers don’t understand or care about how the Star Trek universe works, in fact they delight in f*cking it up… =(

They need the original Star Trek “Writer’s Bible”!

really though, what they are trying to do, is destroy REAL Star Trek =(

but the REAL FANS will never let that happen! =D

609. I am not Herbert - February 6, 2014

Pussy Riot Gets Warm Greeting in Brooklyn:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/arts/music/members-of-russian-punk-band-get-warm-greeting-in-brooklyn.html?hp&_r=1

“We have to remember,” Ms. Tolokonnikova said, “that freedom is not a given. It’s something we have to fight for.”

610. Kenji - February 6, 2014

Thanks Marja and Cygnus and everyone who posts here.

It’s fun to talk about, as I have for years (I was under the screen name Yammer, and I reviewed the films for The Georgia Straight), and in the big or even medium picture, it makes no difference so we might as well exercise our wits in a low-stakes environment.

Part of me wants to nitpick the heck out of the new film series because it is not that much fun to cheerlead a corporate megaproduct. It also comes around so rarely – every three or four years – that you want the experience to be perfect, satiating, fulfilling…perfect.

But I am so overwhelmingly amazed that Trek is: (a) back (b) for the first time being masterminded by a Trek-memorizing geek, Orci, who loves the show arguably to a fault, the fault being excessive fan service and (c) serving up the original characters and ship, that I find it hard to believe people like “I am not Herbert” who seem to think it is a travesty.

Current Trek is not perfect and can be improved. Sure. That’s fair, if you also acknowledge that TOS had serious defects from the Bible on down the line.

611. Dave H - February 6, 2014

““Compare this with Spock’s magic space-suit in STID, which allows him to stand inside a volcano while the state-of-the-art space ship capable of sustaining particle-weapons fire and traveling faster than light, The Enterprise, has to high-tail it out of there before it burns to a crisp. ”

Sheesh, I would have though that you understood Star Trek science better to know that the ship doesn’t actually travel faster than light in the physical universe — where indeed, if it did, would be problematical indeed is a piece of dust hit the ship at warp 8, which is 512 times the speed of light.

But you are just dead wrong here. The Enterprise never exceeds the speed of light in physical space and had to dodge this high particles as you claim. The Enterprise’s Warp Engines, are essentially a Continuous Wormhole Drive, where space is bent and the Enterprise crosses immense distances instantly, which this process continuously repeated.

Come on now, Cygnus. If you are this supposed expert on Star Trek science, that you have an obligation to know simple facts of Star Trek science like this?

In fact, it you had written this into your screenplay, and the movie was made, other very critical people like you — but ones who much better understand how Star Trek technology work — would all be here now bitching about your big engine mistake in your Trek movie.

612. Garak's Pride - February 6, 2014

@Dave H

“But you are just dead wrong here. The Enterprise never exceeds the speed of light in physical space and had to dodge this high particles as you claim. The Enterprise’s Warp Engines, are essentially a Continuous Wormhole Drive, where space is bent and the Enterprise crosses immense distances instantly, which this process continuously repeated. Come on now, Cygnus. If you are this supposed expert on Star Trek science, that you have an obligation to know simple facts of Star Trek science like this? In fact, it you had written this into your screenplay, and the movie was made, other very critical people like you — but ones who much better understand how Star Trek technology work — would all be here now bitching about your big engine mistake in your Trek movie.”

Great post. And thanks for explaining better how the engines are really suppose to work. I think I was thinking, like Cygnus, that the Enterprise goes faster than light, and the deflectors move stuff out of the way. But, yea, I get it now about how that would be impossible given if the physical ship really could break Einstein’s Law by going 500 times the speed of light in real space.

Thanks!

613. K-7 - February 6, 2014

So Miley Cygnus doesn’t understand the basics of warp engines?

Who, besides me, is not even the slightest bit shocked by the “revelation?”

My goodness, what a hypocrite, given all of his whining about a few science issues with nuTrek.

614. I am not Herbert - February 6, 2014

…it doesn’t ALL suck, but as a whole, it fails on the fakeness, and the dumbness… for me anyway… but i’ll go away… just bored… ;-)

LL&P

615. Cygnus-X1 - February 6, 2014

612. Garak’s Pride – February 6, 2014

I think I was thinking, like Cygnus, that the Enterprise goes faster than light, and the deflectors move stuff out of the way.

You seem like a nice guy with a fair-minded attitude, so I’m going to respond to you.

The warp engines are irrelevant.

The exact speed that the Enterprise travels is irrelevant.

The Enterprise has to endure extreme pressure and temperature doing things like traveling at high speed through atmospheres, debris fields, and just ordinary space, which is filled with mircrometeroids and whatnot. Modern-day space shuttles and space stations endure damage from micrometeroids, and they’re not covering much distance compared with an interstellar space ship.

Further, one would assume that the process of warping space around the ship—space, which is teaming with energy and activity on a quantum level—and then traveling through subspace at a rate of 10,000 km/s or whatever it is (again, exact number not important), would, at a minimum, affect the ship with a extreme stress and high temperature due to protracted, high-rate collisions, i.e. Casimir Forces, with the fabric of space and all that it comprises. And that’s just what we KNOW of. The unknowns relating to an activity like subspace travel…well, you can use your imagination.

The Enterprise obviously has technology to protect it from burning up and “flying apart,” of which Star Fleet engineers often warn their captains when they exceed recommended warp limits.

But this is going beyond the level of detail necessary for this issue, and I would never think to bother with such trivial nitpicking.

The general point is that the Enterprise and shuttlecraft obviously have extremely advanced and sophisticated technology, including warp engines, and the notion that such an advanced ship would not have the means to withstand the heat of a volcano, while a space-suit would, does not jibe with the internal logic of the movie (and of Trekdom). After all, the purpose of a space suit is to protect the astronaut while s/he performs EVA in outer space and/or harsh environments. A spaceship, like the shuttlecraft and Enterprise, are DESIGNED to be IN harsh environments ALL of the time, for periods of time lasting months or years. The viewer would rightly assume that a Federation spaceship is tougher than a Federation space-suit.

616. Cygnus-X1 - February 6, 2014

610. Kenji – February 6, 2014

Cheers.

I’m not, by any means, Pollyanna about TOS. Obviously TOS had its faults. At times, they are comedic.

I don’t even really take issue with BR Trek as a corporate megaproduct, per se. I don’t begrudge people wanting to make a buck…or even tens of millions, if they make a really good product.

What I do begrudge is the way that BR have changed what Trek stands for. The way that they have changed the artistic values and sensibilities of it. Trek used to be a thoughtful, science fiction franchise. Yes, the films were more action-oriented than the TV episodes, as Ron Moore says, but even so, they made time to be thoughtful. STII, STIII, STIV, STVI made time to be thoughtful. They had action scenes, but they weren’t “action movies.” And they certainly weren’t fantastical comic-book movies that throw science out of the proverbial window.

And it’s all exacerbated by the way that JJ Abrams, in particular, has stood on the shoulders of a 45-year-old franchise which he didn’t understand or really appreciate (and he has said this several times) and exploited it for his own career purposes. And the way that Abrams constantly says that his Trek movies aren’t being made for Trek fans…and, that he’s right about that, whether people choose to believe him or not.

617. Jeff C. - February 6, 2014

#616. Great post. Whether someone likes Abrams Trek or not we should all agree that it is definitely not like pre-Abrams Trek. It is much different. I agree that it is lacking the things you listed. If I hadn’t been a fan for 30 some years before 2009 pehaps I might prefer nu Trek.

618. Jeff C. - February 6, 2014

#607. Not Herbert. I too find the command structure to be extremely lacking. I think most people can agree on that. How could someone go from being captain of the fleets flagahip back to the academy??? I am glad that was something they threatened to do, but did not. Plus, in ST09 when Pike was looking for a team to stop a drill from destroying the planet Vulcan he sounded as if he was pulling names out of a hat instead of picking his best people. That hurt his credibility as a decision maker.

619. Jeff C. - February 6, 2014

#606. I can buy in to some of the lazy writing. The magic blood and transwarp was just too much though. When u create a way to obsolete starships and death that takes away much of the fun out of Trek movies. Lol!

620. Kenji - February 6, 2014

616

Hi Cyg.

Well, I think he made some comments to the press about not being a Trek guy partly to distance his movie from the latter Berman products, particularly Voyager, which killed Trek dead (the corpse tottered on its feet for a few years but only for a dwindling group of diehards).

I’m surprised that a fan would fail to resonate with the Abrams side-quel ‘verse. This project is deeply respectful. It resurrects the retro nerd-cool 60s vibe of TOS through the set and costume design, sound, and to my mind shocking understanding of canon and fanon. And, of course, it restores the heart of Trek, which is the USS Enterprise and her classic crew. THOSE are the voyages that matter, not the voyages of Captain Randomname, First Officer Quirkyperson, and the USS Fan Production, which can at best aspire to be echos of the structure that Roddenberry conceived for his wagon train to the stars.

I have often read the complaint that ST09 is too Star Warsy, by which I infer it means that Kirk is on the archetypal hero’s journey and so forth.

I was absolutely fine with that for the 2009 movie as a way to reintroduce the characters and a crew of mostly unknowns. That ensemble, by the way, was utilized (IMO) just as well as the original TOS lineup, in that there was no Shatner counting lines and taking all the best ones. We did see them operate as a crew, in that really great sequence that starts with the crew conferring on the bridge about how to ambush the Narada and Spock reporting back announcing that he is ready to chew gum and kick ass, and he’s all out of gum.

The new Abramsverse has not, I concede, given us a mind-bender yet. It is, as someone once said, given to two dimensional thinking.

STID is perhaps an over-earnest attempt to persuade us that it loves Trek canon: look, here are tribbles! Look, here is Khan! Look, here are ridged foreheads, and Mudd, and Carol Marcus, to the point where it accidentally tripped over its feet; specifically, when Admiral Badguy says “Kirk, ya punk, a-hole, don’t you know the Klingons are going to war, and aren’t you afraid of a whole troupe of Khan-sicles thawing out and kicking our ass?” the movie suddenly grinds to a halt.

Because that, right there, is a far, far more interesting, daunting challenge for our heroes than what we got. When a problem is basically solved by Scotty turning off the USS Evil Ship’s guns and some fistfights, that’s not actually dramatizing a hard challenge for our heroes. That was a conceptual mistake.

But I would also defend the intent of the movie, which was actually to *please* us, the nerdcore, by giving us a widescreen episode of the “what if?” revisionist Treks that the comics arm is bringing out (some of them are awesome, by the way).

And also consider the whole theme of the movie, it is a thinly veiled allegory about the immorality of undeclared war and the “ends justify the means” perspective of national security. That is classic Trekism – they might as well have painted the bad Admiral’s face half black and half white, you know?

The evidence tells me that this bunch LOVES Trek, not that they disrespect it in the slightest.

Are they making the movies that I wanna see? Well, the first one for sure. The second one feels kind of wrong, although there’s lots about it that is admirable. The third one, I heavily anticipate, because I do think they get Trek and want to make it work.

But as Jeff @619 says, they have dug themselves some holes with transwarp beaming and magic blood. Really big ones. Now that takes away the possibility of being trapped (transwarp beam them!) or dying (magic blood!) unless you have some baffleblarble explanation of why that is not possible.

There is a way out though: give us a mindbender, something that shows us something truly alien where being rescued from it is not really the point, and stakes that are just as important, but different, than life or death.

621. Cygnus-X1 - February 7, 2014

620. Kenji – February 6, 2014

I respect your opinion and the way that you express it, but there are definitely two camps about the BR Trek, and I have friends in both of them. What really galls me is when one of my friends says that he didn’t care for ST09 but LOVED STID. I mean, what can you say to that? What I’m thinking is, “Man, this poor bastard really just doesn’t know what’s good.”

My friends who don’t approve of BR Trek would respond to your points about the uniforms, canon references and so forth by saying that they’re just the names and likenesses of a classic, once meaningful franchise being exploited now for a different purpose and by a crew with different artistic values and sensibilities, and I really can’t disagree with that assessment.

Yes, there are obviously attempts made at allegories and themes, but our camp’s reaction is that they are ankle-deep; it’s as if the writers thought that the mere gesture of a theme—“this is like the US trying to provoke Viet Nam or Iraq into a war”—would be enough to satisfy the assignment. “There’s your theme, now we can check that off the list and spend the other 99% of the movie on action, non-stop action, running around everywhere, lots of lasers, explosions and more action.”

Everything about the BR Trek movies seems superficial and shallow to me, with the exception of the emotionally moving scenes—Pike’s death, George Kirk’s death—and those scenes seem like cheap ploys to get us emotionally invested in the movie early on so that we’ll have a stake in subsequent events.

The general impression is that the group mentality conceiving the movies is superficial and shallow: themes are introduced and then only minimally developed; the writing is sloppy, resulting in a pattern of unforced errors in terms of bad science, plot holes and inconsistent internal logic; the villains are written with weak motivations, as though the writers just haven’t had the life experience necessary to understand human nature and reflect it back at the audience through the villains; and, of course, the movies are heavily, heavily skewed toward action over drama and dialogue; they’re shiny, titillating baubles that hold our attention and make us drool for two hours, and then we can’t really remember the story or its theme the next day; and so on….

I guess this is just one of those Beatles vs. Stones debates where you just fall on one side or the other, and there’s no convincing either side that they’ve got it wrong.

622. I am not Herbert - February 7, 2014

Cygnus-X1 @ 621: FULL AGREEMENT, and well said! =D

…”BR” trek had me confused though, I prefer “nu-trek”… ;-)

…like “AU” instead of JJ-verse, LOL! =D

…more like Beatles vs. Miley Cyrus, LOL! =D

623. MJ - February 7, 2014

@615

“The warp engines are irrelevant.”

Well, that change in the direction of the discussion by you also has the added benefit of getting you out of having to explain why you didn’t understand the science of how warp engines work…lol

Saying the Enterprise travels faster than light in real space is pretty much equivalent to an exaggeration of a supernova threatening the galaxy. Both are “mild groaners” when we hear them.

624. Kenji - February 7, 2014

@Cygus

I’m not saying I’m right and you’re wrong, I am saying that I find that this current Trek-incarnation, while imperfect, far better expresses the Trek identity than late era Bermantrek. Voyager is the gross exploitation of fandom, if we have to deplore any of this material.

I sense that you resent action scenes in and of themselves and equate drama with quietness.

I do not mean to ventriloquize any writer and so if that misrepresents your position, I apologize.

To me, running around, jumping, fistfighting, laser battles, dogfights, whatever, are not inherently anti-dramatic, and conversations are not inherently pregnant with meaning.

Drama is the exposure of conflict within, which may or may not have physical expression. An action scene can express any emotion if the underlying stakes are high and if the action is heavy with a particular (or mixture of) sentiments as well as physically difficulty.

It’s not easy to juggle all of that, but it is done. For example, the Matrix elevator scene is not merely one of the most elaborate martial arts wire-work battles of all time, it represents the crystallization of the hero’s internal acceptance of his uniqueness. To him it’s not a suicide mission. More importantly, to the viewer it is not a terrorist murder spree either. We get what is going on inside the man, at the moment of his transformation from Anderson to Neo.

Another example is the scene in Iron Monkey where the doctor and his assistant use their martial arts powers to pick up a swirl of papers that is in danger of being lost in a breeze – the casual athleticism, the transcendent joy on their faces carries pretty much everything that the movie needs to prove to us that these two are not just good at kicking stuff, but that they are saintly souls and moreover are in love with each other.

Or the fights in Blade Runner. Each fight deepens our understanding of Deckard’s character, e.g. he has gotten to the point where he will shoot a fleeing woman in the back – he feels sick about it – but he just goes ahead and does it. Wow. Or the final battle against Roy. Roy terrorizes Deckard out of malice, revenge, grief, and to underline his superiority – then truly shows himself to be the better man by rescuing Deckard seemingly as a final whim, a puff of compassion.

STID’s final fight did not have this, it was just action. The stakes were not high, no one thought Kirk would stay dead or that Spock would fall off the air-truck and die. There was no moment of decision, but there could have been. I think the movie was trying to build towards Spock’s realization that the rules do not apply where a friend is at stake, to parallel Kirk’s action. But the movie didn’t pause for that. Spock just got angry and went. It could have been a bigger moment; what if Spock violated parole or threw away a command of his own? Then the action represents a character reveal.

ST09 did that better because the big character reveal of Kirk was earlier on, when Kirk emotionally manipulated Spock to take the chair, something he had to do, but a very ugly moment nonetheless.

STID had so many good pieces, but the storytelling drama was confused. What is the point of killing Pike? The attack on Starfleet would rouse any officer to the point of total rage. Ah, but what if Pike was the Bad Admiral, not Peter Weller? We don’t care about Peter Weller. We care about Pike. It is nothing to us if Kirk defies Peter Weller. It would have been a huge, horrible pill to swallow of Kirk defied Pike – and caused Pike’s death. That would cast huge dramatic resonance over the running, jumping stuff that felt flat and empty, as empty as the set that Scotty was running through.

625. I am not Herbert - February 7, 2014

you cite some EXCELLENT movies there! =D

Iron Monkey, Blade Runner, & Matrix are at the top of MY list! =D

but sorry, IMHO nu-trek is doggy-doo in comparison… =(

626. I am not Herbert - February 7, 2014

SaLuSa via Mike Quinsey: “There is as a result so many of you who welcome the idea of contact with us and accept our assurance that we come in peace. Indeed, we come as your brothers and sisters who have been linked with you through the ages, by a common interest in bringing Mankind the truth. Hitherto the sources that you have trusted have manipulated it in their own interests, to keep you under their control. The saddest aspect is that you have been held back in your evolution and understanding of who you are.”

http://goldenageofgaia.com/2014/02/salusa-via-mike-quinsey-february-7-2014/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=salusa-via-mike-quinsey-february-7-2014

627. Cygnus-X1 - February 7, 2014

624. Kenji – February 7, 2014

I’m not saying I’m right and you’re wrong, I am saying that I find that this current Trek-incarnation, while imperfect, far better expresses the Trek identity than late era Bermantrek. Voyager is the gross exploitation of fandom, if we have to deplore any of this material.

Well, then I suppose this is a comparison more analogous to who is worse: Brittney Spears or Justin Bieber?

I agree with you about late era Bermantrek, and I was just as displeased with it in the late 1990s and early 2000s as I am now with BR Trek.

I hated Voyager while it was running; I think I gave up on it mid-Season 4 or 5, and I gave up on Enterprise mid-Season 2. Nemesis was an unequivocal stinker, and my opinion of it has not changed. But, funnily enough, what I find lacking in the BR movies has increased my appreciation of VOY and ENT as I revisited and watched both series in their entirety. (Maybe someone will come along after BR and do even worse, causing me to gain more appreciation for BR Trek.)

VOY is still the worst of the Trek series, but upon closer scrutiny I realized that the latter season VOY episodes had something which BR Trek does not: solid, overarching, developed (to varying degrees) themes. VOY episodes, much of the time, were ABOUT something meaningful. They had a point to make, a lesson to impart. Sometimes that lesson was kind of lame, short-sighted or frustratingly irrational, but a sincere attempt was made at a theme. The people making VOY were at least trying to respect the traditional values of Trek by wrapping moral allegories in space drama. And in the 7 seasons of VOY, particularly in the latter half, there are a few really good moments. Not many, but a few. ENT got a lot better in Seasons 3 & 4, and I really enjoy watching those now.

I sense that you resent action scenes in and of themselves and equate drama with quietness.

No, not at all.

I appreciate MEANINGFUL action as much as anyone. But, if I can quote Mr. Plinkett, “excessive action isn’t always effective action.” If you watch his review of ST09, he does a side-by-side comparison of the TNG episode, “Power Play,” with ST09, which illustrates this point nicely.

An action scene can express any emotion if the underlying stakes are high.

Of course, but the pattern of tension-resolution gets old after a while if there’s no overarching theme of which the action is in ultimate service. You raise a good example in Blade Runner:

Roy terrorizes Deckard out of malice, revenge, grief, and to underline his superiority – then truly shows himself to be the better man by rescuing Deckard seemingly as a final whim, a puff of compassion.

And that’s the payoff. That final moment when Roy reaches down and saves Deckard. That scene is emblematic of the movie’s theme, and pays off the entire movie in retrospect: “Ohhh…so THAT’S what this has all really been about.”

The Matrix is an even more clear-cut example. Tons of action, but it all points and leads us in a certain direction, to the culmination and ultimate expression of the love/faith theme in the movie’s climax.

What was the emblematic theme-expressing scene in ST09? Well, the movie was about revenge. Weakly motivated revenge, but revenge. Does the villain learn a lesson? No. Do we learn a lesson from the villain? No. Do the protagonists learn a lesson from the villain? No. Do the protagonists learn any lesson at all. Well, kind of. Spock learns some humility and respect for Kirk, but it’s totally unrelated to the revenge arc. Kirk doesn’t really learn any lesson after his initial pep-talk from Pike that convinces him to join Star Fleet, and again, that’s not related to the revenge arc. There’s no overarching theme in ST09, so the action isn’t all that meaningful once you get over the excitement of the new cinematic form/style that JJ Abrams has introduced. Some of the action scenes are exciting as self-contained set pieces—like the skydiving to the drill platform scene. And some of the action scenes are totally meaningless and irrelevant to the story, like the monster-chase-Kirk on Delta Vega scene.

Ah, but what if Pike was the Bad Admiral, not Peter Weller?

That would have been a fantastic twist. Your movie would have been much more thoughtful and meaningful and compelling than STID turned out.

628. Kenji - February 7, 2014

Hi Cygnus

I may have buried my point in too much verbiage, but the important dramatic moment in ST09 is Kirk manipulating Spock into showing feelings and thus forcing his resignation. This scene links together the following:
– Kirk is all about “refuse to lose” – he will do what it takes to win, including bullying a man who is not only his superior officer but a grieving survivor of a suddenly decimated species
– Spock has never gotten a handle on his mom issues
– Pike’s spur of the moment intuition to advance Kirk to be Spock’s premier now has a giant consequence, as he must have sensed would be the case
– the emotional payoff for the audience, which all along knows that the center seat of the Enterprise is property of James T. Kirk – we get to see what may be one of those pivotal moments in Federation history

I never felt that ST09 was about revenge. Revenge is the motivation for the villain, yes, but that is not what the big story of the film or its underlying moral is all about. Rather, ST09 is about consequences, about cause and effect, for example:

– if you become Captain, it is your duty to go down with the ship, even if you are a new dad and your wife is dayyyyym hot

– if you kill a dad, the son might come after you someday

– being in the right place at the right time can be huge – for example, if you are hiding under the bed in Uhura’s dorm, you might hear about a lightning storm in space

– Nero’s revenge is literally insane – he cannot justly punish the Federation for something that hasn’t happened yet

– Old Spock suggests that destiny and fate are real things (he’s so old and has done so much that he’s waaaaaay beyond the logical Vulcan we first knew, and that young Spock thinks himself to be); Kirk was always meant to be the Captain, though his youth went astray for a while and he didn’t get to the chair the same way TOS Kirk did

– Young Spock gets some knowledge from McCoy that he rejects, which is basically to let Kirk make the calls because, even though Kirk is insubordinate and a dickhead, he actually is the man as far as killing the enemy and saving the ship goes; thereafter, we see Spock (after his pep talk with dad) completely buy in to Kirk’s plan, and the two combine to be an awesome team.

629. Cygnus-X1 - February 7, 2014

628. Kenji – February 7, 2014

- the emotional payoff for the audience, which all along knows that the center seat of the Enterprise is property of James T. Kirk – we get to see what may be one of those pivotal moments in Federation history

Yeah, this just wasn’t really very emotional or much of a payoff for me. Yes, it does the prequelly thing of filling in a blank, but Alt Kirk and Alt Spock are so different from their Prime Universe analogues that I never really thought of them as the same people as Kirk Prime and Spock Prime. So, while that confrontation scene between Kirk and Spock was tense, the way it resolved didn’t have much meaning for me outside of that scene as a plot point of the movie and wasn’t much of a payoff. Additionally, the Kirk/Spock struggle/resolution wasn’t connected with the narrative of the villain, which is what drove of the main plot of the movie. The main cause for all of the events happening in the movie is the actions of the villain. Without his revenge motive, pretty much everyone in the movie would have been doing something different…going about their regular Star Fleet lives or whatever.

never felt that ST09 was about revenge. Revenge is the motivation for the villain, yes, but that is not what the big story of the film or its underlying moral is all about. Rather, ST09 is about consequences, about cause and effect, for example:

I agree that there was no real moral about revenge, and in that sense, revenge was not the theme of the movie. But neither do I think that cause and effect or “actions have consequences” was much of a theme, either. Firstly, they’re mundane, everyday sort of occurrences—causes, effects, consequences—I don’t see them as rising to the level of a theme because it’s not really a “moral” or much of a lesson. Of course, causes have effects. Of course, actions have consequences. Such everyday concepts are more the tools with which stories are told rather than their point or meaning.

ST09 really didn’t have a point or meaning, other than to be a vehicle to introduce new characters with famous names to a mainstream audience comprising many viewers with little or no prior knowledge of the characters’ histories. I’m not sure if this applies to you or not, but I see a lot of people trying to see things in ST09 that really aren’t there. I see people here doing the job of the writers for them with respect to ST09, filling in the blanks of the movie with much more meaning than is indicated or even implied by the dialogue and the events on-screen. This issue came up earlier in the thread with regard to the Spock Prime/Alt Kirk cave scene in ST09, which was really just a guy from the future imparting factual information (events and how they emotionally affect Spock Prime) to a guy in the past (and in another universe), Kirk. There wasn’t really a greater meaning or theme to that scene, but people come up with all kinds of meanings for which there just isn’t any dialogue or even picture-story indicating or implying it.

630. DiscoSpock - February 7, 2014

MJ, yes, of course — these two cases are equal in terms of Star Trek movie science errors. Overall, I’d say WOK has more science errors that ST-2009. But these are the two best Trek movies of all time, so most of us either overlook them. But no one certainly should be cherry-picking just one of the movies on this account.

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623. MJ – February 7, 2014
@615

“The warp engines are irrelevant.”

Well, that change in the direction of the discussion by you also has the added benefit of getting you out of having to explain why you didn’t understand the science of how warp engines work…lol

Saying the Enterprise travels faster than light in real space is pretty much equivalent to an exaggeration of a supernova threatening the galaxy. Both are “mild groaners” when we hear them.

631. I am not Herbert - February 13, 2014

Hey Boborci: I have to say: Ender’s Game was actually NOT BAD! =)

…it certainly has issues, but it’s a DECENT SCI-FI PRODUCTION! =)

…maybe you could “step back” to that level of involvement with “Star Trek”?

632. Pikkewyn - February 16, 2014

I would really like to see Abrams work in a cameo with Shatner as Jim’s corn farming grandad. Yes, I want to see Captain Kirk be his own grandfather! :D

633. Keachick - February 17, 2014

#597 -“The Enterprise is hugely wasteful. The hallways are wide and tall, and the lights are always on. This was done because of the exigencies of filming”

One could consider it having big hallways wasteful, but I would not. I guess it depends on how claustrophobic a person may be. I believe that on modern day navy ships, aircraft carriers and submarines, the space is compact to the point where there is not even enough passing room. This is clearly designed to keep costs down (and of course, to make more room for weaponry, even one of those *bastards* could wreak major havoc on a good part of this Planet – but hey…).

The first thing I noticed about the redesigned TMP Enterprise were its narrow hallways and I hate(d) them. I wondered why, until I read that human beings have a fundamental need literally for their own personal space, which is a minimum of 18 inches up to 3 feet. People can be crowded, as in a movie theatre, concert etc, but not indefinitely. Imagine having to negotiate narrow passageways every time you wanted to go anywhere and that was it. Most would go insane after a time. Indeed, in these more crowded cities, mental illness is on the increase.

Many of the newer homes are being built with these narrow hallways, because wider hallways are considered a waste of space and materials. The reality is that the tall, wide hallways are not a waste. They are a necessity.

As for always being lit up – it is a bit like the street lights coming on at night, staying on all night, irrespective of how many road users and/or pedestrians may use that stretch of road. My neighbours have their hallway light on all night…

I have noted, when watching shows coming out of the USA, is the preponderances of huge two-storey homes being totally lit up at night, as in lights on in every room, even though often the homes may have only one or two occupants living in them. Now that’s got to be an unconscionable waste – somebody must have way more money to burn than they have of any common sense or concern. Am I to assume that these shows are a fairly reliable representation of how people light up their big homes, irrespective…?

Given that Los Angeles alone needs to be powered by about 5 nuclear power stations, God forbid that an earthquake/tsunami, similar to what happened at Fukushima, Japan, should hit one or two of these five power stations – and I ain’t talking science fiction/fantasy (or whatever you want to call it) in this respect.

As for a super volcano that could destroy much of the earth as we know it, well, we have one – it is called Yellowstone, USA.

Re the shuttlecraft having to leave because of heat – that was a boo-boo and probably should have been picked up fairly early on but was not. It is not the heat, it is the fine particles from a volcanic eruption that get into the electronics that do irreparable damage and cause the craft to crash.

Spock’s suit could withstand the heat, just as the shuttle and Enterprise could. I suspect that, because very few of these suits are made, they have an added ability to withstand any particle disruption of the small communication device etc built into the suit. The suit is hardly a sophisticated space ship or even a shuttlecraft.

Frankly, I am surprised that topic has come up again as it was explained soon after STID was released by Kayla Lacovino herself.

634. JD74205 - February 22, 2014

Hopefully the writers for ST XIII (III was “The Search for Spock”) will try to be a bit more faithful to the fans of both universes. 13, as the target is close to the 50th anniversary of Star Trek, should not only be something for the new fans, but a tip of the hat to Gene Roddenberry’s universe created in ’66 while not ripping off previous movies or tv shows.

You guys are talented writers, figure it out.

635. Cygnus-X1 - February 25, 2014

633. Keachick – February 17, 2014

Re the shuttlecraft having to leave because of heat – that was a boo-boo and probably should have been picked up fairly early on but was not. It is not the heat, it is the fine particles from a volcanic eruption that get into the electronics that do irreparable damage and cause the craft to crash.

So, the shuttle-craft’s shields can repel micro-meteoroids and phaser fire but they can’t keep out volcanic ash?

Frankly, I am surprised that topic has come up again as it was explained soon after STID was released by Kayla Lacovino herself.

As I recall, Kayla raised the point that the volcano scene was bad science precisely because Spock’s suit is portrayed as more powerful than both the shuttle-craft and the Enterprise.

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