Ron Moore Talks Past & Future Star Trek, Space 1999 Reboot, I Robot 2, Outlander & more in Reddit AMA [UPDATED] | TrekMovie.com
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Ron Moore Talks Past & Future Star Trek, Space 1999 Reboot, I Robot 2, Outlander & more in Reddit AMA [UPDATED] July 29, 2014

by TrekMovie.com Staff , Filed under: Celebrity,Feature Films (TMP-NEM),Trek on TV , trackback

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Earlier today writer/producer Ronald D. Moore participated in a Reddit "Ask Me Anything" to promote his upcoming time-travel in Scotland show "Outlander" (premiering on Starz August 9th). While there he answered a number of questions about his time working on Star Trek as well as his thoughts on the future of the franchise (and his possible participation in that future). He also talked about some projects he has considered taking on, including rebooting Space: 1999. See below for some of the most interesting exchanges.

The following excerpts are from the July 29, 2014 Reddit "Ask Me Anything" discussion with Ronald D. Moore. The excerpts of the questions and answers are taken ‘as is’ including any spelling or grammar errors. Note: Above image is of Ron Moore wearing kilt at "Outlander" panel at Comic-Con 2014.

Ron Moore Future Star Trek Show – Spacestation? Netflix? MirrorJJverse?

gjcbs:  Any chance you would return to write/produce any new TV series in either the BSG or Trek universe?

Ron-Moore: Probably not BSG, because that’s probably done. Trek would be fun to return to one day, but hard to see how you get form here to there.

FancySack: If you could create your own Star Trek TV series, what would you incorporate in terms of timeline, settings, and characters?

Ron-Moore: If i had that answer, I’d be a very, very rich man.

spankingasupermodel: …What are your thoughts on a potential future Trek series? What mistakes that they made in ENT should they avoid? Do you think they should continue to rely on the past as the recent films have or carve out a new story, perhaps set a couple of hundred years after where we left off in the 24th Century?

Ron-Moore: I think there’s a lot of ways you could take a new series. It’s an incredibly flexible format. Gene created something that could take you anywhere in a variety of styles. I think it would be interesting to do another series that is not based on a starship, like Deep Space Nine. But there’s many possibilities for other ship-based shows as well.

vore9000: A lot of people kick around the idea of the next Star Trek series being delivered via Netflix much like House of Cards and Orange is the new Black. Aside from the obvious issues with CBS. What do you think of this idea for Star Trek. And more broadly how do you see this format for TV developing?

Ron-Moore: I think that would be a great idea. It seems to me that Netflix & networks like that provide a very broad, open way of doing television in a different format. It would be wonderful to see a show like Star Trek cast in that realm where they could literally go where no show has gone before.

[UPDATE]

Zouch: You’ve mentioned in the past that you were a fan of the new J.J. Trek films. If you were the one writing the third Trek reboot movie, what would you personally like to see from the original series re-imagined for this one?

Ron-Moore: I think it would be fun to go to the Mirror universe in the re-boot. It was always fun to go there again on Deep Space 9, and it’s always a great chance to see familiar beloved characters turn out to be evil.


Ron Moore thinks a new Star Trek series doesn’t need to be based on a ship and that Netflix could be a future home for Trek

Ron Moore talks about his time with Star Trek

xhotxwater: How did you end up writing for Star Trek?

Ron-Moore: I was a Star Trek fan growing up in the 1970’s. I was in Los Angeles trying to be a writer in 1989, got lucky enough to get on a set tour, brought a spec script with me, convinced the guy giving me the tour to read it – I’ll tell you the full story – he turned out to be one of Gene Roddenberry’s assistants, and gave it to my first agent. She submitted it to the show, it sat in the slush pile for 7 months, new executive producer Michael Piller came aboard beginning of the 3rd season, went through the slush pile, found my script, bought it, asked me to do a second one, and then after that brought me on as a staff writer, and I was there the next 10 years. It was an incredibly lucky break, I was in the right place at the right time, and it changed my life.

robinsky1: What is your favourite memory of working on Star Trek : The Next Generation?

Ron-Moore: Hard to pin it down to one particular moment. Off the top of my head, meeting Stephen Hawking, seeing my first episode being shot, watching the last episode get shot, and getting to walk the Corridors of the Enterprise anytime I felt like it.

mcrae_1982: Just for fun, were there any actors you had in mind for a role that didn’t pan out or decided to go in another direction? I know, for example that David Warner was the first choice for Akorem Laan, and Martin Sheen was considered for Sloane.

Ron-Moore: There was an interesting moment in time where Paramount actually pitched us the idea of having Marlon Brando play Soren in Generations (The movie). None of us knew what to make of that idea, but we were more than willing to give it a shot, but it never went anywhere.


Ron Moore says the idea of Marlon Brando playing Soren in "Star Trek: Generations" was pitched by Paramount but didn’t go anywhere

josephgordonreddit: I read that you were chastised by Rick Berman for making DS9 into such a dark show (for lack of a better term, ‘space opera’), though in hindsight, DS9 has turned into a prescient show with regards to terrorism, war, and all the moral gray in between.
BSG was pretty similar in regards to its tone: very heavy emotionally with repercussions for all actions. I guess my question is what motivated you to write about such heavy, often gruesome topics (torture in BSG, terrorism in both DS9 and BSG, war crimes, etc. etc. etc.) in a time when it wasn’t really ‘standard?’

Ron-Moore: I always felt that science fiction was an opportunity to explore important ideas in society, so a lot of those ideas tended to be dark & troubling ones with difficult moral & ethical choices at its heart. I took the opportunity whenever possible to ask hard questions of the characters, to make the audience think about what was right & what was wrong, whether it was on Trek or BSG.

ServerOfJustice: Marc Alaimo brought a lot of charisma to his role as Dukat and many Trek fans began to sympathize with him. As Dukat is a genocidal fascist, it’s understandable why the writers were put off by this and took the character in another direction. After "Sacrifice of Angels" his character seems to become a cartoonish super-villain rather than a complicated villain. I don’t think I’m alone in feeling unsatisfied with how his story played out. I’m not a writer but it seems as though Damar’s redemption was a plot that could have been perfectly laid out for Dukat instead. More than a decade and half removed, are you satisfied with Dukat’s character development over the final season and a half of the series? Is there anything you would change if given the opportunity?

Ron-Moore: I think we were all pleased with where we took Dukat, it felt like it was organic based on where the character began, who he was in the past and in the present, so I don’t think we have any regrets.

JustPlainSimpleGarak: Throughout your career, who was the most challenging character to write for? And who was your favorite character to write for?

Ron-Moore: It’s tricky to write for Q in Star Trek because he was an omnipotent being with complete control of the universe, and figuring out how to make him "Human" was a bit of a challenge. On BSG, I always particular enjoyed writing for Baltar, I thought he was the most human character in the entire series.

[UPDATE]

Zouch: During your time with Trek, you got a chance to work directly with Ira Behr and Brannon Braga (who, I know, you had a falling out with). How would you say writing with them over the course of three different forms of Trek changed the way you wrote in a sci-fi sense? Were there any ideas that either of them had that you wish you penned first?

Ron-Moore: Ira & Brannon were two VERY different people. Brannon and I were both young and just starting out, and we just got to hang out together and play. And Ira was more of a mentor, and someone who taught me my craft as a writer and as a producer. Brannon always had really out of the box wild ideas that I was always a bit jealous of, and Ira had a deep insight into character that I was always really jealous of, so between the two of them they always inspired me to stretch in different directions.

gjcbs: Do you still stay in touch with Ira and Michael Taylor?

Ron-Moore: I work with Ira currently on Outlander, which has been a treat! And I worked with Michael on BSG.


Ron Moore wrote one of the most memorable TNG Q episodes "Tapestry" – gut says writing for Q was "tricky" and a "challenge"

Moore on other potential/defunct projects

Wallynbp1: I read you were working on a reboot of the movie A Knight’s Tale, as far as I know, there has been further news. Is it still on the table or was it just a good idea whose time has past?

Ron-Moore: It’s still on the table, there’s nothing happening currently but it’s one of those fun kind of projects that could come back at some point.

Shahe_B: Is the BSG movie going to happen? Will you be apart of it?

Ron-Moore: I have nothing to do with that project, which I understand is under the control of Glenn Larson.

[NOTE: Latest news on BSG movie was when writer was hired in April to pen a "complete reimagining"]

gjcbs: What do you have in mind for I, Robot 2?

Ron-Moore: I did a draft of I, Robot 2 YEARS ago, and it’s as far as I know just sitting in a pile someplace, so I don’t really have any ideas for it and I haven’t heard that it’s in active development.

conor_h 5: Would you consider remaking another sci-fi program? I’m think of one of the British sci-fi programs from the 70/80’s (Blakes 7 etc.) or the short lived American program Space: Above and Beyond from the 90’s?

Ron-Moore: I thought about Space:1999 but it was such an insane premise I had no idea what to do with it. But there was something appealing about doing something so outrageous at the same time.

[NOTE: ITV Studios announced a reboot of Space 1999 called Space 2999 in 2012, but as of May of this year they were still trying to find distribution partners.]


Ron Moore (who successfully rebooted 1970s sci-fi series "Battlestar Galactica") once considered rebooting the 1970s sci-fi series "Space 1999"

Comments

1. Harry Ballz - July 30, 2014

A possible reboot of Space:1999?

Now they’ve got my attention!

2. Sirmartman - July 30, 2014

Bsg to the big screen at last…

:oD

3. This Side of Parasites - July 30, 2014

What about the “Wild, Wild, West” reboot?

4. Captain Dunsel - July 30, 2014

Whatever happened to the UFO reboot?

5. olddarth - July 30, 2014

Space 1999? God no! UFO? Hell yeah!!!!

6. Smike - July 30, 2014

UFO? NO! Space 1999…ABSOLUTELY!

UFO is basically just another alien invasion story and we had those a lot lately, both on the big screen and on TV…

Space 1999 on the other hand is my favourite show of all times (Season 1 at least)… I don’t know whether a remake would work. It lived from being so 70s… the score, the costumes, everything. It was what I wanted Star Trek – Phase 2 to be and only a small portion of that got realized via TMP…

The 70s are still my favourite SciFi era and it’s a pity there was hardly any new Star Trek around. The 10s of this century could be a great era for ScFi, too, but again… not enough Star Trek around! One movie every three or four years is hardly enough to set up the specific style of an era… CBS / Paramount are once again wasting an entire decade of potential greatness… with Avatar, new Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy and many more franchises at hand… Star Trek is still taking a nap… time to wake up, before the decade ends!

7. Smike - July 30, 2014

BTW: The “Outlander” trailer looks awesome. Since I love the Scottish accent so much (not just because of Scotty), I’m definitely hooked. Hope this show will succeed…

8. Curious Cadet - July 30, 2014

Yes you could base a Star Trek series on a fixed space station, and you could also give Spock a girlfriend. Neither is really what Roddenberry had in mind.

Now that we have transwarp beaming, why not base the series on Earth, and have them beam wherever they want to explore? No ships at all. That would save a lot of money in production costs, but it wouldn’t be Trek.

Seriously, DS9 was fine as a secondary offering to TNG, but they can’t bring Trek back to TV without ships. I never got into DS9, but when I did watch it, it seemed like a good show. However, they always seemed to be itching to get off that space station, and ultimately created a lot of convoluted stories to do it. It would be like if the coast guard headquarters administrative personnel were always going off to other countries to conduct missions.

9. Mike Barnett - July 30, 2014

If done right, a BSG reboot on the big screen could be a big tent-pole franchise. IF … it’s done right.

10. TrekRules - July 30, 2014

Curious Cadet – Roddenberry gave Spock a girlfriend in Nurse Chapel and also a wife(Amok Time). He just didn’t make it Uhura. You could easily do a spacestaion based series – think NCIS or Criminal Minds where that is the home base but they go where needed to do whatever. Just because you are set on the spacestation doesn’t mean you need to stay on the spacestation. And I find it funny that you don’t like Spock having a girlfriend but you are all over hte idea of transwarp beaming, an idea Roddenberry considered and shot down for TNG.

11. Picard, Jean-Luc - July 30, 2014

I HATE, HATE!!!!! It when fans assume they know what Gene would have done… For all we know he could have changed it beyond all recognition had he lived to see it develop further. All we can do is listen to the interviews he gave and the changes he himself made to Star Trek. If fans actually listened to Gene Roddenberry and actually took onboard the changes HE made to this franchise with TNG then you’d realise that he would have cherished every minute of Abrams Trek or Orci’s Trek, Moores Trek or Bermans Trek or Braga’s Trek or Coto’s Trek because all you have to do is see how he himself changed it during his reign. His belief was that Star Trek continue to be relevant for the world it was made for. It has and will continue to be as such under anyone who takes it on as they will be informed by current affairs in the real world. Like Denny Crane, he may have his name on the door and built Star Trek but it’s bigger than him now, He’s been dead for 23 years!!!!!! Lets move on! Roddenberry himself was the first to radically change Star Trek back with TNG! Now all of a sudden anyone else who radically changes Star Trek is deemed unfit to take on the mighty legacy Roddenberry left? Come on now.

12. Cygnus-X1 - July 30, 2014

Good article.

I wonder how much of DS9 was attributable to Moore and how much to Behr? Was Moore in charge of the creative direction and writing, like Piller was on TNG, whereas Behr was in charge of all of the production side of it like Berman on TNG?

I’d love to see Ronald D. Moore take over Trek, hire all of the producers and writers, and run the franchise properly and like it deserves to be run.

It’s a bit funny seeing people refer to criticisms of DS9 as overly dark back in the 90s. Moore’s BSG makes DS9 look very mild.

13. Thorny - July 30, 2014

Space: 1999 started out as a second season of “UFO” based mostly (entirely?) on the Moonbase. Eventually, the link to “UFO’ was abandoned and it became a standalone show.

Space: 1999’s premise was laughable even in 1975. There is no way to make the “moon leaves our solar system” concept work without howlingly bad science (they tried to explain it went through a wormhole, which helps only a little, and even that episode was pushed back until late in the show’s out-of-sequence first season.) If I were to reimagine the show (“Space: 2029″) I’d set it up as a cross between Stargate and 2001: A Space Odyssey. Earth has established its first base on the moon, and explorers find something that turns out to be a portal to other worlds. Throw in some sort of cataclysm like an asteroid decimating Earth so the Moonbase Alpha crew is alone and must now risk using the portal to survive…

“UFO” could actually be rebooted pretty well, I think. The idea of a secret international defense organization against aliens is still pretty cool. If the original extremely campy Battlestar Galactica could be reimagined as something serious, UFO would be a much easier project. The concept of such organization masquerading as a movie studio seems less far-fetched in the wake of “Argo”.

14. Thorny - July 30, 2014

Curious Cadet… Funny, because Roddenberry allowed the implication that Spock had a previous relationship a few years earlier with Leila Kalomi in “This Side of Paradise” to stay in the script.

15. I am not Herbert - July 30, 2014

Orange is the new Black is a DAMN GOOD show… ;-)

PLEASE, give us a REAL Star Trek series on Netflix!!! =D

16. I am not Herbert - July 30, 2014

P.S.: it takes a real man to wear a kilt! =)

17. Viking - July 30, 2014

I’m with Harry here. If there was ever a genre series that could and should get a proper and well-done reboot, it’s Space:1999. I understand that it was a pretty expensive and ambitious endeavor in it’s day, but it still was was it was: a post-Trek, pre-Star Wars British TV show. A steady hand at the wheel with a good team behind them could create something to behold, as long as they stay fairly true to the premise, characters, etc, as was done with BSG.

18. CmdrR - July 30, 2014

I have been reading about Space: 2999 for about 5 years now. I would LOVE to see some ideas. I think it could be done. Getting the moon out of orbit is not the only path. But, the idea of mankind thrust into the universe badly unprepared is a very very tempting one. I had hopes that that was the route Enterprise would go, but even in the pilot, they copped out and “invented” most of the gimmicks/tech of TOS. So, how was that a prequel????

Anyway, I’d love to see Space: 2999.

19. CmdrR - July 30, 2014

OK, Since I KNOW Ron Moore is reading this, here are some ideas for Space: 2999:

a) Moonbase Alpha is the first and largest joint-nation military base on the moon, but far from the only base. There are smaller civilian/corporate ones and some from factional nation alliances.

b) Alpha scientists have created an unstable gateway to distant parts of our “galactic neighborhood.” (NO F@#$ing metaverse!!!) For this reason, TPTB on Earth have declared the moon under quarantine. It is rigidly enforced, including space battles between the main alliance and other interested parties. Resources are therefor limited on the moon, but no one is in danger of starving.

c) Early stories should establish that manking is woefully unprepared for coping with a dangerous universe. Sometimes, warships return through the gateway (this concept needs work; to differentiate it from Stargate) or human tech misbehaves in certain regions of space, near quasars, x-ray suns, etc.

d) The instability of the gateway makes colonization dicey at best. But, there may be times when Earth attempts it. This would mean rushing tens of thousands of humans to one spot in a limited time. Some aliens may also get “trapped” on the moon.

e) It would be interesting to see the economics of a solar system-based humanity just reaching the stars.

f) MORE… There’s real juice here!! Anyone else have thoughts?

g) Tight uni’s! Imperfect characters making mistakes! Fun!!

20. Marja - July 30, 2014

8 Curious, There’s a difference, and that is that Starfleet, in the case of DS9, is acting more like a US Naval detachment [assuming we make the Federation and US interests equivalent], so, yes,they would be able to go out and defend Bajor and the Alpha Quadrant, i.e., Federation interests. The Bajoran admin and ops personnel on DS9 are more equivalent to a Bajoran CG, because they are guarding Bajoran sovereign space.

[So it is odd that Major Kira went along on some Defiance missions, when rightly, she should have been in command of DS9 at those times. One exception would be if the Defiance were defending Bajor directly; she'd be a liaison. And once they were involved in the Dominion Wars, I believe the Bajorans, being members of the Federation, joined the Federation Starfleet in military action, so it was appropriate.]

10 TrekRules and
14 Thorny, I appreciate your saying this, although I think some fans are fine with Spock having “a girl” whom he rejects or leaves behind [and to be fair, TrekRules, Chapel had, ugh, an 'unrequited love' for Spock], as opposed to NUhura who is not among the rejected. [And I think among those fans are some who think NUhura's 'cockblocking' an intimate K/S relationship.]

The irony is, Roddenberry was setting in place the seeds for a Spock/Uhura relationship in TOS [witness "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X"], but that was considered wayyy too far out in the racist days of the 1960s. Studio heads objected because their affiliates in the Deep South would not have aired the show. These same studio executives had a thing or two to say about Number One, the female second-in-command in “The Cage.” They wanted females to be more background characters than people in prominent roles.

11 Picard, Jean-Luc, Thank you for saying this! I suppose they’ll listen to you as much as they listen to anyone else … some of us have said this over and over [and not necessarily as well] … but some people are very attached to Their Idea of Trek and That’s How It Should Be. And that That’s The Only True Trek. I think some of those people complained about TNG [Roddenberry's creation] and DS9 and Enterprise as well.

There are those who have legitimate gripes with the writing, plot holes, and excessive action in Bad Robot Trek, and others who have issues about the characters, and how the whole thing is a complete violation of them &c., even though it is taking place in an AltVerse.

12 Cygnus, I, too, think Ron Moore would do a great job with a Trek series on TV.

21. Marja - July 30, 2014

PS if Ron Moore ever happens to check in here,

Ron Moore, ye look properly manly in a kilt!

22. Marja - July 30, 2014

I also hope “Outlander” becomes a huge success. As a show with a female lead, it’ll carve a way for others.

Not to mention it looks absolutely great.

23. CmdrR - July 30, 2014

Ron Moore — What is worn under your kilt??

Now that I’ve FORCED you to reply…

Alpha could also fall through its own gateway, which again is a dicey bit of technology, and could continue to fall through into troubled situations. If they’re caught in a gravity well, then the clock is running. It would eliminate the “we gotta get everything done in three days” aspect of the original show, and allow for some multi-episode arcs involving tough decisions with new civilizations.
The gateway would spare us the idea of nuclear waste building up a new kind of magnetic energy and going boom. But, the rest of everything would still hold.

24. JamfoFL - July 30, 2014

#10 Trek Rules

Yes, Spock was seen to have a number of relationships in the show, explicitly with Leila, a “should have been wife,” and the unrequited bond Christine felt for him.

However, if you watch early episodes of the series, you could picture a deeper bond between Spock and Uhura than was shown on-screen. We see Spock allow Uhura to play his Vulcan harp and, on one occasion, accompanies her on the harp while she sings. He even has an expression, almost smiling, as the two interplay. And, as has been reported in other articles and behind-the-scenes info, the first interracial kiss was actually supposed to be between Spock and Uhura. When Shatner found out this “groundbreaking” event was to occur without him, he demanded that the script be changed so he would be the one involved.

So when people think this relationship between Uhura and Spock is so out of place, I simply think that for a quirk of scripting and a bit of Shatner’s ego, we might have seen larger hints of a Uhura-Spock bond. And that’s the cool thing about Trek; really, only limited imaginations have a hard time picturing how things could happen or may happen…

As far as shows to reboot… I, too, would love to see a Space: 1999 reboot. Yes, the premise was a bit far fetched…. but I think if you narrowed the scope a bit it could work. Why would it have to be the moon? How about a long range space base built onto one of the large asteroids of the Kuiper Belt? Those things can get knocked out of orbit by routine things, so we ground the premise in some plausibility. There are definitely things that could be done to make the show much more plausible while keeping the nature of the program unchanged.

All of that is just my two cents, of course!

25. CmdrR - July 30, 2014

Extra bonus cool points:

Alpha is in occassional contact with Earth, which has gone to poo thanks to a destabilization of the seasonal pivot caused by the moon’s absence. Now, Alpha must get the moon back in orbit to save Mankind… and to do this, they have to grab all the alien tech they can!! Oh, and survive!

DAY-UM, SOMEBODY MAKE THIS SHOW!!

26. JamfoFL - July 30, 2014

By the way… if they do a Space: 1999 redux, they better leave the Eagle spacecraft as is.

Next to the Big E, they were the most awesome looking, and yet somehow almost plausibly designed and realized, spacecraft on television! I would love to see those on the screen in high definition!

27. star trackie - July 30, 2014

Come on Bad Robot, let’s get new original Trek on Netflix! Now is the time to start some negotiating and planting some seeds to make something happen in 2016!

28. IDIC Lives! - July 30, 2014

#20 Marja
“The irony is, Roddenberry was setting in place the seeds for a Spock/Uhura relationship in TOS [witness "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X"], but that was considered wayyy too far out in the racist days of the 1960s.”

I agree on the racist days but I saw a lot more set-up in the works by GR for Kirk/Uhura than Spock/Uhura. Maybe it is in the eye of the beholder.

–and not just the forced togetherness in “Plato’s Stepchildren.”

29. Phil - July 30, 2014

Good to hear RM speaking about Trek on TV. Keeping the hope alive.

Not good to hear about Brando in Generations…which went nowhere anyway. Still worst Trek movie ever.

30. Mad Mann - July 30, 2014

The fact that Ron Moore is open to get back into Trek is fantastic. CBS needs to get their collective heads out their asses and MAKE A NEW STAR TREK TV SHOW!

Simple formula: (Iran Behr + Ron Moore) * New Star Trek TV Show – (CBS+K/O Paper Products + Bad Robot) = WIN!

Note that the minus sign in from of the quantity means that there should be NO K/O Paper Products + Bad Robot involved.

31. Marja - July 30, 2014

28 Lives! I saw a lot more set-up in the works by GR for Kirk/Uhura than Spock/Uhura. Maybe it is in the eye of the beholder.

Can you cite some specific examples, because all I remember is “Captain … I’m frightened.” and, as you say, the admittedly forced togetherness in “Plato’s …”

32. pilotfred - July 30, 2014

Ron Moore great writer and i am sure he would do a great new star trek program however i would love to see new blood on board,i feel the people being continuum would do a brilliant job

#20
if my memory is correct it was meant from get go to be kirk and uhura but then was changed thankfully it was changed back,shatner made sure the other takes could not be used or have time to change the couples, i alway love they go on about this episode however no one seem to mention Elaan of Troyius which was filmed before Plato’s Stepchildren however as we know shown afterwood that has the kiss as well

33. IDIC Lives! - July 30, 2014

Marja,

Triskelion (might be spelling it wrong), Sure Kirk should have taken the beating (combat) instead of his (female) crew member but that entire episode was somewhat sensual or had implied innuendos if one so choses to fantasize – not so much for K and U getting together but for their concern for each other. As she was fending off Lars–Kirk was not so professional in his anguish. Uhura seemed more concerned about Kirk than she was Chekov but then–Kirk was the star so might not count.

Tholian Web – Uhura sees the Captain first, he appears in her quarters. She collapses with anguish. She is very upset in sickbay about him.

In Man Trap, I interpreted it that Uhura just enjoyed goading Spock about the lack of Vulcan moon while they had nothing better to do.

In Charlie X, I thought they enjoyed making music together but thought it was not “romantic.” I thought, “good comrades.”

Your “clues” aren’t any better than mine and vise versa. :-)

“Mirror” does count, not just the sexist dialogue of “Captain, I’m frightened,” but they way he takes her by her shoulders and says she is the only one that can do it, works his magic charm on her personally, I do believe. It seemed a hint of something there.

All in all, the hints are thin on each side. I call a draw. :-)

34. Thunder Gusset - July 30, 2014

The Brits have made some pretty awesome sci fi in the past (Space:1999, UFO, Blakes 7).

35. I am not Herbert - July 30, 2014

A real man wears NUTHIN’ ATTOL under his kilt… =O

…but for on-stage? probly a BSG thong ;-)

36. Disinvited - July 30, 2014

# 35. I am not Herbert – July 30, 2014

” A real man wears NUTHIN’ ATTOL under his kilt… =O” — I am not Herbert

A real man wears nothing at all on an atoll.

37. Thorny - July 30, 2014

26. Agreed! I sat through many a bad script with many bad actors just to watch the Eagles on “Space: 1999″ when I was a kid. If they relaunch, do only minor tweaks, a’la the Vipers of BSG. No uglification of them like the Abrams-verse Enterprise, please.

38. Harry Ballz - July 30, 2014

Being of Scottish heritage, I wear a kilt on occasion.

Women will come up and ask, “Tell me, is anything worn under your kilt?”

I will answer, “Worn? No, everything is in perfect working condition!”

39. Miles R. Seppelt - July 30, 2014

Space: 1999 reboot could be “Space 2099.” The premise: A neutron star passes through the solar system near earth and, due to its immense gravity, whips the moon out of earth’s orbit along the plane of the ecliptic. The moon immediately falls into a worm hole and the survivors of Moonbase Alpha find that space is actually FILLED with wormholes – they’re everywhere! The result is the moon falling onto a wormhole whenever a new “planet of the week” is required for story-telling purposes. There you go Mr. Moore – no charge. Please keep in mind the part about humanity being totally unprepared for deep space – that’s what makes the stories cool: ordinary humans – pretty much like us – in extraordinary circumstances.

40. Douglas - July 30, 2014

Ron Moore is clearly brilliant. BSG was a masterpiece. However,
the long hair & kilt is kind of an overdone affectation but he’s so wealthy and respect for his writing is so high I’m sure people just ignore it for the most part to hear his ideas and work with him. He’s at a point where he can look anyway he wants. I do wonder if he sometimes gets tired of putting all that work into maintaining an avant-garde look.
I’m sure he know what he’s doing with that look and what doors it opens. Honestly, that look seems like a waste of time to me and hope it doesn’t take away energy from his genius creative ideas.
His mind has so much to offer. I thought Caprica was great. We need intelligent shows like that on may levels.

41. Red Dead Ryan - July 30, 2014

CBS isn’t going to outsource a new Star Trek series to Netflix. Even if they did, CBS would demand sky-high royalties/fees so that Netflix would have to sell the series to customers apart from the regular package just to make enough money for production.

Then there’s the prospect of a potential Disney/Netflix joint venture. Disney could end up profiting from Star Trek, and no way would CBS would ever sit by and let that happen.

I wouldn’t count on a new series anytime soon….

42. Curious Cadet - July 30, 2014

@20. Marja,
“The irony is, Roddenberry was setting in place the seeds for a Spock/Uhura relationship in TOS [witness "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X"], but that was considered wayyy too far out”

I think there’s more to it than that. Just like they realized they had to get rid of Janice Rand as Kirk’s pretty yeoman to prevent a shipboard relationship from developing, they realized Spock couldn’t either. It really was Kirk & Spock, and eventually McCoy. A girlfriend in there anywhere for any of them would have ruined what the series became. Kirk had many romantic liaisons, and his history was rife with girlfriends. Nobody ever said Spock went through life celibate, but he was intentionally kept single. As was McCoy. All were given pasts with significant others, but none were given active, on-going relationships, they were always ended whenever explored.

So whatever anyone thinks about the NuSpock/Uhura relationship, it is most definitely not something that was part of TOS, and was seemingly intentionally avoided by all concerned at the time. If Abrams Trek is supposed to be reflective of the original, they are taking great liberties with it in the new film, and arguably doing significant damage as well with the romance. It’s just not what TOS was about.

Honestly, what does the S/U relationship get us? It’s an interesting alt universe exploration, but what’s the payoff, how does it make the movies more authentic to Star Trek?

43. Buzz Cagney - July 30, 2014

Space 1999 benefited from having an extremely accomplished actor in Martin Landau in the central role. As with TNG and Patrick Stewart, his ability lifted what was at times pretty mediocre stories and writing.

And i’d be prepared to suspend belief and watch the Moon being sent out of Earth’s orbit somehow. That would look great on screen with current technology.
This time i’d like to see how it affected Earth and its population though. We didn’t see any of that in the original show.
And one other thing, the Eagle must stay looking exactly how it did back then. They were a great ship!

44. Buzz Cagney - July 30, 2014

#42 I’ll tell you what the S/U relationship gets me- pissed off that’s what.
But no doubt i’ll now be told i’m heartless and they should be allowed a personal life blah blah blah. Blechh.

45. Platitude - July 30, 2014

Great sci-fi writer, hope to see him return to Trek someday.

46. IDIC Lives! - July 31, 2014

#42 Curious Cadet

I agree wholeheartedly. I avoided re-stating what always brings down wrath upon me. Perhaps I never said it as clearly as you did here. Anyway, you are right, it was obvious as TOS evolved. And, it does change what Star Trek is all about and goes against characterization.

If someone likes that huge change, then give it another title, give characters other names, and start your own universe. You needn’t mention to anyone that you were originally inspired to do so by Star Trek, go for it!

But Star Trek earned its stripes as Star Trek. It is such an amazing phenomenon because it is what it is. It therefore “owns” its universe.

47. Curious Cadet - July 31, 2014

@46 IDIC lives!
“And, it does change what Star Trek is all about and goes against characterization.”

I think it does. And don’t get me wrong, any one of them could have been changed to female and the formula would have worked. I think making Starbuck a woman in BSG was a brilliant move, as long as the relationships don’t change.

But think about this, Roddenberry never created a shipboard romance. Even in TNG. Characters always had a rich background of relationships and affairs, but none were depicted on screen. In fact Roddenberry seemed to love to have regular characters with an implied relationship in their past. Decker and Ilia, Riker & Troi, Picard and Crusher, etc. One could argue that on-screen romances didn’t start showing up until Roddenberry was out of the Picture. This is NOT a case of WWGRD? But rather what he did. I’m not suggesting Star Trek can’t change, but if it does, then there had better be a good reason for it that improves the characters that made Star Trek the success it became. So I have to ask, how does the Spock/Uhura relationship improve the original formula? From my perspective we don’t learn anything more about either of them by watching an active relationship in front of us, and It changes the Spock character dramatically (to be fair it’s not just the relationship). Which is why I can confidently say, this is NOT Star Trek. It also takes away screen time from developing other characters more fully, or more importantly explaining convoluted plot twists to a confused audience.

48. Tim Smoke - July 31, 2014

I would like see a new star trek on TV show. I am sure want to see about that Space:1999 show on TV or movie, but it could be say Space: 2099 like that.

49. Trekbilly - July 31, 2014

BRING BACK SPACE:1999!!!! YES!!!

50. IDIC Lives! - July 31, 2014

#47 Curious Cadet

I agree!

And yes, the Uhura relationship is not the only change in Spock. Spock is not Spock now, and yet until STID and the 2009 reboot, he was Spock. How many films, how many episodes, how many novels, how many written stories? The change does not help the character Spock, no. He is less Spock and more what he loathed or at least could not understand.
Vulcan had/has a worthy, highly intelligent way of being, it is bred into their people as much as being human is bred into us throughout long ages of existence. How dare nuTrek just—never mind.

The collective human consciousness adds things to its “legend, myth, archetype, iconic creations” as our species evolves.

Shakespeare’s Hamlet was and is Hamlet. The Greek god Zeus is Zeus, it means a character who has earned his/her stripes, merits, and is stable, solid, in our collective consciousness. He or she is GREAT in our collective consciousness and might well be immortal.

We hapless modern humans do not have Shakespeare or the gods, but we have our legends, our icons, and they are cemented in our collective consciousness. They give us worth, inspiration, we identify with them so we can face to the world, and they are our heroes so the world is not so dark (Ebola, anyone?). We NEED this stability and inspiration in our minds and spirits. Spock is this and has been. He IS.

Kirk has also been changed in nuTrek with no benefit. He is no longer who we thought he was, whom we all knew and loved – or at least we said, “Wow, that is some kind of human to go out there in the stars and KNOW he can succeed! Egotistical, yes, but also in command and delivering on his challenges…” (or something like that).

Anyway, you said it well and I agree.

51. Trekbilly - July 31, 2014

Amen #43!!! Gotta have the moon out of orbit and keep the base and Eagles…

52. Tom - July 31, 2014

Even though Generations could have been better, I think Moore did a good job on the Enterprise B scenes. Some of the lines were changed from one character to another after some of the actors decided not to be in it . however I still liked how tha sequence played out. The scenes with Shatner and Stewart had some decent moments but the end was a letdown for most. Bob Orci has a golden opportunity to write some great final scenes for Kirk and Spock Prime. He did such a great job with Nimoy in 09 and the Shatner scene he wrote would have fit in nicely. The Nimoy STID appearance was not as meaningful as the 09 scenes

53. Disinvited - July 31, 2014

# 50. IDIC Lives! – July 31, 2014

“Shakespeare’s Hamlet was and is Hamlet. ” — IDIC Lives!

Except when it’s the first, second, third, etc. quarto or its variants.

http://www.quartos.org/

” The Greek god Zeus is Zeus…” — IDIC Lives!

Except when he’s Jove or Jupiter too.

54. Red Dead Ryan - July 31, 2014

There was the romance between Chief O’Brien and Keiko, but both started off as secondary characters on TNG. O’Brien was seen a number of times before “Data’s Day”, the episode in which he marries Keiko, but Keiko herself made her debut in that episode. And neither of them were “hero” characters.

It was not until later in TNG and especially during the run of DS9 the the relationship was fully fleshed out. They had kids, fights, dates, etc. It was a realistic relationship.

55. IDIC Lives! - July 31, 2014

#53 Disinvited
Jupiter was the head Roman God, Zeus was the earlier Greek God. Jove might have been “sort of” a different guy but I’m not sure and frankly don’t have time now to delve into it, although the old gods do interest me.

Basically, Spock has not changed names over timeframe or culture, he has changed his core personality in nuTrek.

Shakespeare in detail has never been my forte, this I freely admit. I did just look up the various quartos (thanks, sincerely, for the education), and several characters seem to have differences in the quatros as they progress; I cannot find that Hamlet actually did vary at the core. But I looked briefly and could be wrong.

So, I get your point but Jungian archetypes and concepts of specific heroes and specific myths which reoccur in many cultures—- are facts of our species’ mind. I realize these vary from culture to culture and timeframe to timeframe but the characters and the scenario are within the collective consciousness..

So thanks for the lesson, I do appreciate it. I was not trying to write a Master’s thesis, I took time to scribble on this site — my thoughts on how the S/U affair has changed Spock with no real advancement or benefit to his character, and has in fact destroyed or damaged what he is/was. Jeesh, I can’t word it any more carefully than that.

I feel my general comparison holds but if it doesn’t, so sorry, c’est la vie.

I believe Prime Star Trek is that rare “event” which already entered into the collective consciousness. Not only has it inspired countless inventions and motivated scientists to new discoveries, it gives us common folk our hope of the future. I think that is rare, precious, and should have been treated better by nuTrek.

56. IDIC Lives! - July 31, 2014

Sorry I called quartos “quatros”–isn’t that what the brains of Triskelion bargained with?

57. Disinvited - July 31, 2014

#56. IDIC Lives! – July 31, 2014

I believe that was quatloos.

My only point it is only because of technological innovation that this notion of myth and legend having some sort of immutable permanence came to the scholarly fore. Prior to that these things evolved as life on the planet does as the inexactitude of passing it on to the next generation would introduce “mutations”, i.e. changes over time.

When copyright was first introduced to the U.S. writers had somewhere around 13 years to profit from their written works and then it would enter the public domain where it could be subject to all sorts of “changes”. Again, this untouchable immutable permanence really didn’t exist until Disney and publishers started extended copyrights length of term to darn near perpetuity in recent times and contrary to the public good that initial copyright laws’ limitations sought to avoid of individuals and institutions stifling innovative ideas by keeping them out of the public good they’d serve in the public domain.

58. IDIC Lives! - July 31, 2014

#57 Disinvited

Oh yeah, quatloos. Thanks.

I hear you. I think we might be a bit apples and oranges, me on about Jung and you on quartos and copyrights. :-) Thanks. I do understand.

59. NuFan - July 31, 2014

I found an old show called Buck Rogers in the 25th Century that needs to be the next reboot. It is absolutely hilarious. I don’t think it was meant to be, but they should just redo it almost the same with the same ridiculous 80s hair and costumes.

60. Cygnus-X1 - July 31, 2014

57. Disinvited – July 31, 2014

Again, this untouchable immutable permanence really didn’t exist until Disney and publishers started extended copyrights length of term to darn near perpetuity in recent times and contrary to the public good

It was the 1976 Copyright Act that extended the term of copyright protection, not Disney and publishers acting independently. And that legislation has allowed many, many writers and musicians and their heirs to earn a living, often a very good living, off of the product of their most creative years, which tend to come early in the careers of musicians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Copyright_Act

61. Cygnus-X1 - July 31, 2014

47. Curious Cadet – July 31, 2014

So I have to ask, how does the Spock/Uhura relationship improve the original formula?

It doesn’t.

It’s just another of the changes made by BR in aid of producing Trek that appeals to people who don’t like Trek. Global focus group data indicates that general audiences would like more emotion in Star Trek. So, BR turned the one character who was famous for repressing his emotions into a hyper-emotional basket-case with a par-for-the-course emotional girlfriend.

If the Spock/Uhura romance had evolved, over the course of several movies and the time spent together by those two characters—as did the Odo/Kira romance of DS9—then it might have some meaning. But, as we’ve noted many times, BR Trek is not known for its meaningfulness.

62. Marja - July 31, 2014

42 Curious, Honestly, what does the S/U relationship get us? It’s an interesting alt universe exploration, but what’s the payoff, how does it make the movies more authentic to Star Trek?

[1] and probably most “Paramount” — it gets more female moviegoers interested in the movies [those who know nothing of Trek]

[2] it IS an interesting AltVerse exploration. PrimeSpock said, “Do what feels right,” and AltSpock is doing just that. Instead of being solitary, he has joined with a woman, much as his own father joined with the human Amanda.

[3] the nerd got the lovely brilliant girl [encouraging to young male nerds everywhere]

[4] the woman got the smartest handsome guy onboard [encouraging to young female nerds everywhere]

[5] this woman happens to be uber-accomplished and brave, a good example for young ladies in the audience

[6] it’s about flippin’ time the “main dynamic” of three [white] guys [or two white guys and a white-ish alien guy] included a woman in Trek. That she’s a woman of color is so much the better.

63. Marja - July 31, 2014

38 Harry,

So ye’re of the clan Ballz? That doesna sound Scottish to me ;-)

64. Marja - July 31, 2014

So what I’m hearing is that Spock, to “truly” be Spock, must be isolated and defined only by his friendship with Kirk and occasionally McCoy.

Spock acts “out of character” giving in to violence in the BR Trek movies because they want to use him for action scenes. IDK why he doesn’t use the good ol’ FSNP Famous Spock Nerve Pinch, but I don’t think that’s violent enough for the “overseas” audiences.

Again and again I’ve said “AltVerse” and “PTSD” irt Spock’s character in NuTrek, but it doesn’t matter.

Everything is different in BR Trek, and yes, too action-y and too violent, but these films continue to be slotted for Summer Blockbuster time, so sadly, it’s not likely we’ll get very cerebral Trek.

Our viewpoints are not likely to jibe concerning Spock. Or anything much else that’s there.

65. Cygnus-X1 - July 31, 2014

62. Marja – July 31, 2014

[2] it IS an interesting AltVerse exploration. PrimeSpock said, “Do what feels right,” and AltSpock is doing just that. Instead of being solitary, he has joined with a woman, much as his own father joined with the human Amanda.

Alt Spock was already hooked up with Uhura before he ever met Spock Prime. So, there’s no sagacious father-figure advice angle to the Spock/Uhura romance.

And what’s being explored? That a guy with pointy ears can have a fairly typical relationship with a woman, complete with lovers’ spats and so forth? Face it, there’s no exploration going on in that romance. You’re just doing the writers’ jobs for them again and filling in an empty character relationship with the sort of meaning that you’re craving but aren’t getting from these movies.

66. Cygnus-X1 - July 31, 2014

The only bit of substance to the S/U relationship is her angst about him putting his life at risk. But they didn’t really do anything with that beyond having the characters have a brief lovers’ spat over the issue. And you could write all of the dialogue relating to that one and only substantial issue on the back of a napkin.

67. Harry Ballz - July 31, 2014

@63 Marja “So ye’re of the clan Ballz? That doesna sound Scottish to me”

Marja, you’re such a sweet lass!

Would you like it better if I posted under the name Harry Baws?

(some people will have to look this up to get it)

p.s. I was born in Scotland. Honest.

68. miketen - July 31, 2014

@39 Miles, I think it would make more sense to maybe have a experimental warp drive or jump drive accident and the whole Moon is warped or jumped out of orbit to another part of the Galaxy/Universe. Then they spend the series trying to survive and find a way back to Earth.
I also agree with #43 Buzz, the Eagle’s need to stay the same, it’s a classic design.

69. Marja - July 31, 2014

67 Very appropriate! Just be sure to keep yer bawbag warm under yer kilt, laddie. Not hard at this time of year.

[facepalm]

70. Marja - July 31, 2014

65 Cygnus, Alt Spock was already hooked up with Uhura before he ever met Spock Prime. So, there’s no sagacious father-figure advice angle to the Spock/Uhura romance.

Except maybe to continue it. Maybe PrimeSpock knows AltSpock will be better off in an intimate relationship than on his own. After all, AltSpock’s been solitary for what, 150 years? Maybe he figures his Altverse counterpart can be free to live a different, less solitary life, eh?

“Writers — making up stuff is our business!!”

71. IDIC Lives! - August 1, 2014

362 Marja

[3] the nerd got the lovely brilliant girl [encouraging to young male nerds everywhere]

[4] the woman got the smartest handsome guy onboard [encouraging to young female nerds everywhere]
**************************************************************************
Regarding #3
Spock is not a human nerd, he is a Vulcan. He is not Sheldon of “Big Bag Theory,” he is a Vulcan.

Human behavior, regrets, aspirations urges, have been forced upon Spock by nuTrek. The greatest of TOS’ Spock’s fears have been realized. He constantly refused to become “one of them” but he was fascinated by his crewmates and wanted very much to get along (IDIC).

Regarding #4
Star Trek is not Happy Days or How I Met Your Mother or– whatever

NuTrek decided to make Spock “more human” and then edged it right into “human” in STID. Sure, to attract ticket sales, as you say.

This connects to another change, they decided to make Trek less exotic, less “mystical.”

They haven’t gone to deep space, there is not that feeling of the unknown.
And there is sure nothing mystical or unattainable about Spock anymore.
He is so human.

Obviously, you like what has been done, you impose your humanity on Spock such as not wanting to be alone in old age.

Vulcans isolate themselves for the benefit of gaining more knowledge, such as his attempt to purge all emotion (never could spell that) in ST:TMP. That would be an extreme condition of Vulcan beinghood but to go to the human end of Spock’s continuum is not good or not–interesting–either.

What makes you think S and U would be together at age 180? If they did stay together, he would live longer than her, I assume, and then he’d really be lonely.

Spock said, “Do what feels right,” to “himself” ONLY regarding going with Star Fleet or dropping out to find new Vulcan, whatever that means. Old Spock said, “For ONCE…” He was not renouncing his entire existence, how he had lived it. And again, he is Vulcan, you have made him human.

Incidentally, how many Vulcans were left? They had no space ships, no planetary defense, no nothing, whereas in TOS we heard from Vulcan Space Central. Vulcans were not just backward monks who lived in stone caves, they were more advanced than humans. According to First Contact, they landed on Earth first.

It took The Enterprise a while to get there, the drill had been drilling because it was done as Kirk and Sulu stood on top of it, and the Vulcans just stood there with mouths open and let it drill??

I’d actually be interested in your answer to this, Marja. No need to counter my comments on Spock, I know how you feel.

For the sake of their little story, nuTrek writers ignored all that and Vulcan imploded with a whimper.

I think we can say (have already said), good-bye to all that really was Vulcan, including Spock.

The humans have won, as unevolved, as sexually driven, as emotionally unpredictable (Spock sure has a bad temper), Spock is now human.

Congratulations, nutrek has dismantled the foundation of Star Trek. (Gee, who will handsome Spock be dating next week?)

72. IDIC Lives! - August 1, 2014

Perhaps Spock needs to get his ears bobbed now.

73. IDIC Lives! - August 1, 2014

I want to say one more time, I feel there should be NO romances among the crew. If there is a hint that someone is going with someone, fine, but we (the camera) should not stop and watch them kiss in the corridor. As someone intelligently pointed out, this was Roddenberry’s guidance too. I am so grateful we never stopped and watched Kirk and Rand have a smooch.

74. IDIC Lives! - August 1, 2014

What happened to Earth’s planetary defense shields when the drill started into earth. We could shoot down (break the “chains”) of that drill even today. Hell, we could have done it in 1940. Yes, such astute writing.

75. Cygnus-X1 - August 1, 2014

70. Marja – July 31, 2014

Except maybe to continue it.

“MAYBE”!!!

Marja, you’re incorrigible.

“Maybe” Spock Prime meant that Alt Spock should be open to exploring other relationships, i.e. not with Uhura. Or, “maybe” he sensed that Alt Spock is gay and should come out of the closet. Or, “maybe”….

That’s the problem with doing the writers’ jobs for them—the script supplement in your head doesn’t necessarily apply to the experience of any other viewer! And it doesn’t make sense to rebut complaints about a movie on those terms. We have to judge it by what’s on the screen.

76. CaliburnCY - August 1, 2014

#12 Cygnus-X1 wrote:

> I wonder how much of DS9 was attributable to Moore and how much to
> Behr? Was Moore in charge of the creative direction and writing, like
> Piller was on TNG, whereas Behr was in charge of all of the production
> side of it like Berman on TNG?

Hi Cygnus-X1,

Ronald D. Moore was not in charge of the creative direction and writing of DS9 — that is to say, he was not the “showrunner.” He was one of the staff writers (from Season 3-7) who worked underneath the showrunner, who was then Ira Steven Behr.

The showrunner of DS9 for Seasons 1 and 2 was Michael Piller, the man who was in charge of the writing of TNG starting in Season 3 and who co-created DS9 and Voyager. In those first two seasons of DS9, Piller had already brought on Ira Steven Behr to act as his right hand man with the specific intention of handing the show over to Behr eventually. Piller by this point was moving into more of a creative oversight role for several shows at once, so he needed trusted people beneath him to run each show’s writer’s room on a day-to-day basis. (Piller had a similar relationship with Jeri Taylor during the end of TNG and the first two seasons of Voyager.)

Ira Steven Behr became the showrunner of DS9 for Seasons 3-7. It was at this time that Ronald D. Moore joined the DS9 writing staff, because TNG had ended. He served under Behr along with several other staff writers.

(As for the production side of DS9, Rick Berman was in charge of that as he was on all Trek shows from TNG – ENT. Underneath him there are other production folks like Peter Lauritson and Steve Oster. Of course Rick Berman, as the ultimate boss, had input on and veto power over the writing as well, but I wouldn’t call him the showrunner in the sense that people tend to mean that, which is running the writer’s room as Piller and Behr did.)

I love Ronald D. Moore a lot. His contributions to Star Trek are huge, and I personally consider him one of the finest writers Trek has ever had. I would be very happy to see him in charge of a new Trek show. But I think there has grown a misconception out there that Ronald D. Moore had more control over all aspects of DS9’s direction than he necessarily had. Cygnus-X1, you’re by no means the only one I’ve seen writing on the net who seems to have gotten the impression that Moore was the showrunner of DS9 when in fact he was not, so I figured it was worth writing to clarify.

There’s probably two big reasons for why this misconception has developed:

1) Ronald D. Moore has graciously made himself very accessible to the fans, going back to his AOL chats in the late 1990s when DS9 was still on the air. So of all the members of DS9’s writing staff over the years (Piller, Behr, Moore, Rene Echevarria, Hans Beimler, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, Peter Allan Fields, Bradley Thompson and David Weddle), Moore was perhaps the biggest access point fans had to learn about writing decisions being made on DS9 and why they were happening, even though he wasn’t himself the showrunner. Throughout many interviews, chats, and commentaries, Moore has been a very visible figure, whereas there are other Trek writers who have clearly contributed a lot but don’t seem to give as many interviews about their work, like Hans Beimler or Peter Allan Fields.

2) Since DS9 has come to be known as the “darkest” Trek show and a lot of that DNA clearly carried over into Moore’s Battlestar Galactica reboot, sometimes people seem to retroactively assume that Moore must be the main reason behind DS9’s darker tone. In reality many of the writers must have contributed to this direction, and of course Piller and Behr as showrunners were the ones who had the most authority to steer the show’s creative direction.

Behr is the one, for example, who wrote the famous “It’s easy to be a saint in paradise” speech from The Maquis Part II. Piller as showrunner would have approved that speech, and this was at a time before Moore had even joined the staff. Indeed, a certain amount of darkness predates DS9. When he was new to TNG, Piller is the one who advocated that Worf would refuse to save the dying Romulan in The Enemy. Don’t get me wrong, it’s clear from the anecdotes we’ve heard that Moore did often push for darker stuff in TNG, DS9, and his brief stint on Voyager, I just want to be clear that he wasn’t the sole voice in that direction.

Anyway, Ronald D. Moore is certainly a great one among the many people who’ve worked on Trek over the years. And TV is a very collaborative medium, so we’ll never really have the full picture of who’s responsible for what. But as showrunners, Michael Piller and Ira Steven Behr are probably the first people we should praise or blame for the creative direction of DS9.

Sorry for the long post, but hope this is helpful to anyone curious. :)

77. Disinvited - August 1, 2014

#60. Cygnus-X1 – July 31, 2014

And in these days when more money equates to more speech I refer you to this Associated Press report as it appeared in THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE on October 17, 1998:

http://www.public.asu.edu/~dkarjala/commentary/ChiTrib10-17-98.html

http://www.salon.com/2002/02/21/web_copyright/

” Disney Chairman Michael Eisner took his concerns directly to Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.). The company’s political action committee also contributed to key lawmakers.

“We strongly indicated our support for the measure,” said Ken Green, a spokesman for Disney, whose copyright on Mickey Mouse was scheduled to expire in 2003, on Pluto in 2005, on Goofy in 2007 and on Donald Duck in 2009.

Richard Taylor, a Motion Picture Association of America spokesman, said Disney worked very hard on the issue. MPAA also used its heavyweight lobbyist–President Jack Valenti, who called on his decades-old contacts with legislators.

The battle for copyright protection pitted well-known corporations such as Disney and Time Warner against librarians and consumer organizations. The American Libraries Association, for example, urged its 54,000 individual members to call their local lawmakers and urged them to reject the change.

“You have to have some sort of incentive for people to write books and create films, but it’s not supposed to go on forever,” said Jamie Love, director of the Consumer Product on Technology, a group affiliated with consumer advocate Ralph Nader. “It’s supposed to enter the public domain and everyone is supposed to have access to it.”

In addition to its face-to-face lobbying campaign, Disney made campaign contributions. Of the 13 initial sponsors of the House bill, 10 received contributions from Disney’s political action committee. The largest donations, $5,000 each, went to Coble and Rep. Howard Berman (D-Calif.), a senior member of the Judiciary Committee.

On the Senate side, eight of the 12 sponsors received Disney contributions. Judiciary Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), the bill’s chief sponsor, received $6,000, second only to Democratic Sen. Barbara Boxer, who represents Disney’s home state of California and who is up for re-election this fall. Disney gave $1,000 to Lott on June 16, the day he signed up as a bill co-sponsor and a week after Lott met with Eisner.” — ‘Disney Lobbying for Copyright Extension No Mickey Mouse Effort’, AP, THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE, October 17, 1998:

And Disney’s active lobbying pixie dust didn’t just magically appear in 1998. They’ve been active even before your cite.

And by perpetuity, I mean the fallout which resulted in this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act

And while you cite the often used smokescreen for the 1976 changes — It wasn’t the first time it was used to justify copyright extensions heavily lobbied for by the publishing industry — you provide no reason why copyright holders in 1976 needed more “opportunities” to realize profit than those in 1776. Especially considering that technological advances since 1776 afforded them MORE and NOT less markets for their works.

Especially considering history shows that the reason for starving artists and their widows has more to do with long established industry practices of robbing struggling artists of their copyrights and their co-commitment royalties for mere pittances compared to what is possible to be realized and shared.

78. Cygnus-X1 - August 1, 2014

76. CaliburnCY – August 1, 2014

Thanks for the info.

The reason that I got the impression that Moore had a more prominent role on DS9 than simply being one of the staff writers is his titles of Supervising Producer and then Co-Executive Producer.

“Producer” is a very vague title in Hollywood which seems to cover a multitude of jobs. Still, it does leave the question of why Moore would have been given those titles if he were only a staff writer. When Piller and Berman were put in charge of TNG by GR, they were both given Co-Executive Producer titles.

If Moore was just a staff writer on DS9, how do you explain the inconsistency in the titles?

79. Marja - August 1, 2014

73 Lives! And there is sure nothing mystical or unattainable about Spock anymore. He is so human … Well, obviously we differ in this. I think that Spock maintains his Vulcan demeanor much of the time in the movies, with flamboyant exceptions, with which I do not agree — choking Kirk almost to death, PDA with Uhura in the Transporter Room, beatin’ on Khan in STiD. But, that’s on another thread, and I don’t think you read all of my posts, so never mind.

Obviously, you like what has been done, you impose your humanity on Spock such as not wanting to be alone in old age. Well, how dare I! Yes, I like seeing Spock as one half of a romantic pairing, and I equate Spock and Uhura to Sarek and Amanda. So shoot me. I don’t like every bit of the portrayal of their relationship in the movies [about 30 other posts on other threads], but I like the pairing. I do not think Sarek, for one, is going to want to be alone in his old age either, but that’s just my take.

Vulcans isolate themselves for the benefit of gaining more knowledge, such as his attempt to purge all emotion (never could spell that) in ST:TMP. That would be an extreme condition of Vulcan beinghood but to go to the human end of Spock’s continuum is not good or not–interesting–either. I’m not sure what constitutes the “human end” of Spock’s continuum. If he is human because he’s in a romantic relationship, then so is Sarek.

Your 71 and 74, Yes, I have a BIG PROBLEM with both of those incursions by Nero. And the attack by Khan on, of all places, SFHQ!

Once Nero’s ship had wrought such destruction in the galaxy, you would think that EVERY warp-capable or orbit-capable planet would have a defense net in place. Those are some of what I consider huge plot holes in both movies. That, and Enterprise and Vengeance fighting in our Sol system with no running interference from Starfleet ships near Earth!

75 Cygnus, oh, I don’t know, I think this applies to everyone. Look at IDICLives! post above. She makes many assumptions too, just on the other end of the spectrum.

80. Marja - August 1, 2014

It was not necessary to “blow up Vulcan” for emotional impact. Nero’s ship had very powerful, advanced weaponry. He could have shot down most of the defensive Vulcan starfleet and attacked the major cities of Vulcan, and done the same at Earth.

Meta: for JJ Abrams, it probably would have taken more screen time and not been nearly as visually dramatic.

81. Cygnus-X1 - August 1, 2014

77. Disinvited – August 1, 2014

Just because the copyright extension was good for Disney doesn’t mean that it was bad for you. I’m not sure what your personal gripe is. Maybe the copyright term should be different for different media? But I’m damn well sure that all of the musicians were very happy to have the term during which they could earn licensing fees from their work extended—from the little guys on up.
I imagine the same is true for writers.

82. IDIC Lives! - August 1, 2014

Marja

I think I have read the posts on the other thread, I posted this before those appeared but no problem.

I say, ok. :-)

83. CaliburnCY - August 1, 2014

#78 Cygnus-X1

I agree, producer credits are confusing, even moreso because they work very differently in television than they do in film.

When a television writer like Ronald D. Moore is credited as “supervising producer” or “co-executive producer” this actually just means he is a senior staff writer who is paid more than a more junior staff writer.

John August has a pretty good explanation of this on his blog:
http://johnaugust.com/2004/producer-credits-and-what-they-mean
(scroll down to the “For Television” section)

The more senior staff writer might have extra responsibilities like listening to more story pitches or doing more rewrites than a junior staff writer might do, but technically all the role designates is extra seniority and pay, not necessarily extra responsibilities.

This gets even more confusing because in television there are other types of producers like line producers and associate producers who aren’t writers, but are more what we normally think of as producers (people coordinating the actual making of the episodes). And a title like “supervising producer” also gets applied to people on this more traditional production track as a way of designating seniority. So both Peter Lauritson and Ronald D. Moore were supervising producers for Trek at one point, but as I understand it, Peter Lauritson was in charge of the post-production team, whereas Ronald D. Moore was a senior writer. Totally different jobs with the same title.

As a senior staff writer on DS9, there’s no doubt that Ronald D. Moore had a lot of influence on the show, along with many of the other staff writers. I’m just hoping to clarify how Moore’s role related to showrunner Ira Steven Behr and the other writers, and what titles like “supervising producer” and “co-executive producer” mean when applied to writers in television.

84. Disinvited - August 1, 2014

# 81. Cygnus-X1 – August 1, 2014

” Just because the copyright extension was good for Disney doesn’t mean that it was bad for you.” — Cygnus-X1

What you are doing is failing to understand the good the “Public Domain” serves the individuals, their government and the planetary society as a whole, and arbitrarily assigning the quality of “goodness” to its diminishment through the artifice of copyright. It ain’t necessarily so that “What’s good for Disney is good for mankind.”

From the Salon article that I already cited:

“In their view, the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act harmed the public by retroactively taking information from the public domain and putting it back under the control of copyright holders. Corporations would benefit, but small publishers and the general public, they argued, would suffer.

At issue is whether Congress — with the constitutional authority to issue copyrights and patents “for limited times” to “promote the progress of science and useful arts” — overstepped its bounds in this case. The previous law, passed in 1978, protected an author’s work for 50 years after an author died, while works for hire — those created for a corporation, like Mickey Mouse — were protected for 75 years. The Bono Act extended both categories by two decades.

Those who favor the law argue that Congress should be allowed to determine the definition of “limited times” and that the Bono Act simply puts the U.S. on equal footing with European intellectual property laws, which offer a similar degree of protection.

Eldred and Bjorklund vehemently disagree.

Eldred: What’s happening is that the copyright owners are trying to use technology to control all sorts of uses, even uses that would be considered fair before.

The content companies argue that an extension of copyright gives people more of an incentive to create new works.

Bjorklund: Well, there was no big boom in creativity the day after this law was passed, or even a couple years after the law was passed. The 70-year extension covers your lifetime and your children’s lifetime. How much difference does it make to you, if you’re [already] going to be getting the royalties and children are going to be getting your royalties and your grandchildren, too?

Eldred: We actually went to the trouble of getting an amicus brief from Hal Varian who’s a professor of economics at Berkeley, and he made the calculations and found that it would only be a few cents difference in royalties between 50 years after an author died, which is how the law has been since 1978, and 70 years after the author died.

Bjorklund: In addition, I keep coming back to this: Most works that have been created out there are not valuable. They’re being created because people want to create them, not because they hope to become incredibly wealthy. This law doesn’t address the 90 percent of all the stuff that’s being published.

Eldred: Works today have about five to seven years maximum before they run out of steam, making any royalties for the author.

But it’s possible to imagine a scenario in which an out-of-print novel is picked up by Steven Spielberg or Steven Soderbergh and turned into a blockbuster movie, which in turn makes the book a bestseller. The earnings in that case would go not to the child or grandchild of the author but rather the studios, actors and director. Is that fair?

Bjorklund: I just cannot see that extra 20 years as being significant to the creator. It would be a shame for this kind of thing to happen, but in fact, businesses often do negotiate payments if there are existing estates, even if the work is in the public domain. So it’s not like the major studios would wait until the copyright expires and snag a work with no payment.

Eldred: The short answer is that the big publishers would like to hide behind the authors and claim that they’re representing their interests but they’re really not; it’s just not true. What the Internet shows if it shows anything is that it’s not necessary to have strong copyright in order for great things to happen.

The Internet was not subject to patents or copyright or strong intellectual property at all — and yet, it came about. The publishers are trying to take over the Internet, all this free stuff that we built, and make it pay-per-view. And they need to own the content to do that.

Bjorklund: But to answer your question quickly, even if you’re talking about lots of authors’ great-grandchildren losing out on money, it’s still worth it to get work into the public domain. It’s a necessity that was foreseen by the founding fathers, which is why this clause is in the Constitution to begin with. The public domain needs to be public.

Eldred: Let the free market decide. Let’s have some competition. Why give a monopoly to these publishers forever?

Copyright is supposed to serve, according to the Constitution, as an incentive for authors and inventors to publish their works, to make them available to the public. You have to look at what is the minimum incentive for them to do that so you don’t also give them too much and spoil the balance of the copyright equation. Nobody is saying that there’s a single author who refuses to publish because he didn’t have [copyright protection] for 70 years after his death, instead of 50 years. ” — Damien Cave,’Mickey Mouse vs. The People: How an antiquarian bookseller and a Nathaniel Hawthorne fan ended up before the Supreme Court’, SALON, Thursday, Feb 21, 2002 6:38 PM UTC

85. Cygnus-X1 - August 1, 2014

83. CaliburnCY – August 1, 2014

Thanks, that was very helpful.

However, it still leaves the question of the inconsistency between the Co-Executive Producer title as it was applied to Piller and Berman on TNG vs. Moore on DS9.

From what I’ve read, Piller was in charge of the writers’ room and the creative direction of TNG, whereas Berman was in charge of the getting the production side. Yet both men had Co-Executive Producer titles. Being that Moore had this same title on DS9, is it not reasonable to assume that he had similar responsibilities? I understand the job title hierarchy presented on the John August blog—that all titles under Executive Producer indicate seniority of writers—but that doesn’t seem to have applied to Berman and Piller as Co-Executive Producers of TNG.

86. Cygnus-X1 - August 1, 2014

[omit "getting"]

87. Cygnus-X1 - August 1, 2014

84. Disinvited – August 1, 2014

Eldred: We actually went to the trouble of getting an amicus brief from Hal Varian who’s a professor of economics at Berkeley, and he made the calculations and found that it would only be a few cents difference in royalties between 50 years after an author died, which is how the law has been since 1978, and 70 years after the author died.

This makes no sense to me.

Twenty years worth of royalties is potentially a MASSIVE amount of money.

Honestly, I don’t understand where you’re coming from or what point you’re trying to make.

The copyright extension has resulted in more money for musicians of all income levels because it makes their copyrights more valuable and they can get better deals for their work when dealing with publishing companies. If you’re a musician and Music Publisher XYZ wants to buy your catalogue (to keep the example simple), they’re going to offer you more money if they can license your music for 70 years after you die as opposed to 50 years after you die. It’s a HUGE difference in potential income from your catalogue, and the implication of that difference is that you’re going to earn more money from your work.

You seem to be ignoring all of my examples and my reasoning and offering no specific problem that you feel the copyright extension creates. Have you personally been harmed by the copyright extension? If so, how?

88. Jack - August 1, 2014

“I HATE, HATE!!!!! It when fans assume they know what Gene would have done… For all we know he could have changed it beyond all recognition had he lived to see it develop further”

Amen.

89. IDIC Lives! - August 2, 2014

Just a word here on “what is alien?”

Even if the S/U people are not intentionally trying to humanize Spock, I feel they are not coming fully to grips with “what is alien?”

I am aware of this because (here I go again with personal stuff, but dammit, what I know and experience affects my view of Trek)–

I began as a UFO investigator for MUFON and APRO (Aerial Research Organization) in the late ’70s. I also fell in love with Trek in about ’76; the actual quest for alien life and my love of Trek have always been connected.

(Incidentally, I was teaching school at the time I was a field investigator, it was not a paid position or career for me).

Throughout the years I have researched the possibilities alien life and if it visits Earth. I am NOT championing “little green men” or any of the stereotyped UFO concepts which people usually laugh at – partially because of disinformation–(another subject).

So, is there advanced (intelligent) life elsewhere in the universe? (That’s assuming we are intelligent at all).

THIS is what “non-shippers” (my newly learned word), really enjoy regarding Trek.

Anyway, I have found that if there is alien life, it could be plasma-based, it could be dark plasma-based (if dark matter exists), it could be sheer energy of the kind we have yet to discover, it could be “life in electricity/light forms” (related to plasma life), it could be from some other bubble of quantum time – another aspect of the quantum hologram –
it could be silcon based (regards to the Horta) and so much more we can’t even imagine or word.

Spock is not a human nerd, I don’t care what Orci says. Yes, hard to get that across to the majority of people but IT ALREADY IS ACROSS TO THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, thanks to GR, LN and the brilliance of Original Star Trek!

They managed to allow us to know and love a VERY ALIEN MAN.
And he is many points on the IQ scale more intelligent than humans (except maybe Kirk – ha ha), but it is an ALIEN intelligence.

NuSpock is human, let’s face it. He’s a bit weird, but he has lost all the oddities, the mystique of his alien-ness, and quite a few IQ points (if you ask me).

People can go on and on about Sarek and Amanda and how Spock might do this and Spock might that. But Spock WAS a fully formed and functioning alien man before JJ came along.

People do not realize or do not care – how different an actual ET species would have to be from us. A little research into NASA’s projections of alien life or into Jacques Valle’s research or even Michio Kaku’s “Alien Mind” video on YOUTube, will give you a hint of how ALIEN aliens would be.

Or just look at our own animal species on Earth. Octopus are actually amazingly intelligent but–so very different than our intelligence. Or even your cat, now there is a wonderful alien compared to human intelligence.

Personally, I am thrilled at this prospect of how DIFFERENT alien intelligence is! I want to boldly go–and I think most of us here do.
In doing so, we also perceive our humanity (unique human traits) more clearly.

So all the ruminations by individuals on how T’Pring might have told us this about Spock and Lela might have told us that about Spock, and maybe Spock would just yada yada– to me they pale in comparison to what Star Trek is for me:

Which is the most enormous event humankind will ever experience: The realization that advanced intelligent life exists outside of Earth.

And the realization that we will meet “it” someday – possibly soon

(Disclosure of alien life-forms by the government?? Who knows–but eventually–). If “it” is like Spock in his most alien form, we should rejoice that “it” is so much like us!

I feel like begging, please don’t make Spock into a human nerd!! There must be other fandoms or stories other than Star Trek to revel in “relationships.”

(Yes, I’m ducking now. Again).
Maybe part of the problem is, the JJ universe made the galaxy too small, you can zip anywhere in half an hour, tops. In fact, people forget the VASTNESS of it out there. Sure, TOS minimized it too, but they (GR) was passionate about alien life in all its diversity – which was beyond the Enterprise crews’ imagination, too, until they encountered it. Warp speed!!

90. Marja - August 2, 2014

89 Lives!

Well, there are different “what Star Trek is to me” opinions all over this board. I express what it is to me, you express what it is to you. I feel very strongly that NEITHER is the definitive definition of Trek. People assert they know what Roddenberry would have done, but they have only to look at TNG Season One to see a result of that.

Both S/U and K/S fandom assert that Spock has feelings, of love or loyalty.

In fact Spock left his Kohlinar studies to rejoin the Enterprise — out of loyalty to Kirk and the Enterprise crew.

If Spock were a truly alien being, he wouldn’t be half-human, he probably woudn’t be a bipedal humanoid, and so on. If Trek REALLY wants to show aliens, yeah, it should introduce some of the lifeforms you speak of above, alien jellyfish or octopi or Dark Energy ["Silicon Avatar" is one of the few examples I remember from TNG].

The Horta was a wonderful innovation and exploration of what is alien, but how many others did we have? The Salt Monster … hmmm … processing … processing ….?

“META” — GR was “passionate about alien life in all its diversity,” as long as it didn’t break the ST budget. Most aliens of the week were humanoids. When it got to TMP and a decent budget, he introduced the very sexy alien Ilia, but also the part alien V’ger.

What Spock is to some people is “all Vulcan no Human” … to some he is the next best thing to a robot …to some he is Kirk’s sidekick along with McCoy, and therefore not permitted relationships outside his frienship for Kirk.

Nimoy’s Spock showed a sense of humor [the end of "Operation: Annihilate!" and others]. This implies an understanding of what makes humor, and something of an understanding of humans. The eloquently raised eyebrow at certain times showed his inner sense of humor regarding Humans. Additionally his mother was human, and I imagine, from what she showed in “Journey to Babel,” she let it show when Spock was still living at home. He also would have seen the workings of a Vulcan/Human marriage, so I don’t think his relationship with Uhura is so far out.

Uhura has studied Romulan, and as it is an offshoot of Vulcan, she probably mastered Vulcan as well. Fully understanding a language usually involves a good understanding of that culture [the implications of its ideas and culture as expressed in its linguistics]. This is, admittedly, belied by her statements to Spock during the flight to Kronos, but his replies seem quite Vulcan to me. But we differ here. All I will say is that Sarek was a full Vulcan and saw fit to marry a Human.

Again I say, Spock mostly acts “Vulcan” in the TOS sense in the new movies, but was given “excuses” by the writers to seek revenge: the implosion of Vulcan, the death of his mother [which Kirk had the temerity to mention, when Spock was doing his best to maintain control, the control Kirk sought to break -- on TOS Spock's advice! -- so that he could ill-advisedly assume command of the Enterprise].

[META, this allows Orci to use Spock as a "superhero", and this may be because he really identifies with the character Spock as he, Orci, saw him.]

In the second movie we see Spock “break” when he realizes the loss of a man with potential and new learning, and the source of what could have been a close friendship, a concept perhaps foreign to him [although I believe Uhura would have shown him what friendship means through her own examples with others.] Up until that point, Spock acts perfectly officer- and Vulcan-like.

Yeah, the AltVerse made the galaxy seem too small, I think primarily for the META reason that Abrams wanted to quickly get the characters into the next action sequence. Though why Pike couldn’t have made a log entry about “we are now three days from Vulcan and the subspace chatter is not promising” or some such, I do not know, nor can I imagine.

On another subject, I would be very interested to see some of the articles you’ve written regarding extraterrestiral life — I’ve just come off a binge-viewing of “X-Files” on Netflix and need a dose of a little more reality regarding possible visits to Earth by ETs!

91. IDIC Lives! - August 2, 2014

Marja,
I won’t debate with you (at least not right now and maybe not at all) in your post here. I agree with it, actually. I guess I would be ecstatic if TOS Spock with his human traits, too, could have been left as Spock–but having new adventures and friendships as TOIS Spock does. It just seems nuTrek is a bit bubblegum (a bit human) where Spock is concerned (sorry, I am busy doing animal chores, this can’t be very intelligent).

I would happily share my articles with you,the subject is the passion of my life along with Trek (they go together). In fact I have a new book published on Amazon, July 2013, on what ET intelligences might be (I have no one answer or even one theory – a number of origins? The craft vary and some are not craft but more like space critters). I am moderator on a large UFO analyzing site and see about 4 new cases daily, plus some other sources.
I have a small Facebook group with a private setting with good discussions on XFiles subjects (not just UFOs).

I also had several strange experiences myself which certainly add fuel to my obsession but this being a rather free wheeling site, I don’t want to share what is part of my professional work and my ideas–have heard enough skepticism and little green men jokes to last a lifetime. And no one else exposes their actual name, so—?

So I have no idea how to share my articles with you. Email addresses posted here – no good. FB somehow? I don’t know.

92. Disinvited - August 2, 2014

#91. IDIC Lives! – August 2, 2014

Not sure if you have a privacy thing or not but FWIW others have claimed to have had no problem posting their email address in the field labelled ” Website (optional)”.

93. Marja - August 2, 2014

91, Lives! Hmmm, maybe I’ll search Amazon for UFO books July 2013?

I don’t do Facebook … creepy, no anonymity.

94. CaliburnCY - August 2, 2014

#85 Cygnus-X1 wrote:

> Thanks, that was very helpful.
>
> However, it still leaves the question of the inconsistency between the
> Co-Executive Producer title as it was applied to Piller and Berman on
> TNG vs. Moore on DS9.
>
> From what I’ve read, Piller was in charge of the writers’ room and the
> creative direction of TNG, whereas Berman was in charge of the
> production side. Yet both men had Co-Executive Producer titles. Being
> that Moore had this same title on DS9, is it not reasonable to assume
> that he had similar responsibilities? I understand the job title hierarchy
> presented on the John August blog—that all titles under Executive
> Producer indicate seniority of writers—but that doesn’t seem to have
> applied to Berman and Piller as Co-Executive Producers of TNG.

Good question, sorry I missed it before.

Bear in mind, I don’t work in television and don’t have inside knowledge of exactly how TNG or DS9 ran behind the scenes, so this is based solely on what I’ve read and my interpretation of it. I’ve tried to be careful and do my homework, but I am happy to be corrected if anyone knows better.

Incidentally, just to make sure we’re on the same page, by the time Michael Piller arrived to TNG in Season 3, Rick Berman was already a full Exec, not a Co-Exec. And by Season 4, Piller would also be promoted to full Exec. So most of the time Berman and Piller were running TNG, they were actually full Execs.

But yes, you’re right that there was a time for Berman (in late Season 1 – Season 2) and Piller (in Season 3) when each one was a Co-Exec and yet they were already basically running their aspect of the show underneath Gene Roddenberry.

I think the main reason that Rick Berman and Michael Piller had so much responsibility under Gene Roddenberry is because Roddenberry wasn’t as active in the day-to-day running of TNG, particularly by the time Season 3 came about. He still had authority, as evidenced by the conflicts over S3 shows like The Bonding and Captain’s Holiday, but the writing had been largely delegated to others like Maurice Hurley in S1-2 and briefly to Michael Wagner at the start of S3, even before Michael Piller was hired to take over the writing for the bulk of S3.

By contrast, Ira Steven Behr as Executive Producer on DS9 stayed very active in the running of the show, including the writing, all the way up through to its conclusion. I would assume that Ira Behr’s still highly active role as Exec on DS9 would change what was expected of Ronald D. Moore as a Co-Exec. Thus while Ronald D. Moore and Michael Piller almost certainly did some similar tasks in their time as Co-Execs on their respective shows, I don’t think we can conclude that Moore’s role on DS9 in Season 6-7 was comparable to Piller’s on TNG in Season 3, even when they each had a Co-Exec title. Piller was basically hired to run TNG for a minimally active Roddenberry. Moore was promoted upwards on DS9, presumably with increasing responsibilities, but he was still working underneath an active showrunner (Behr).

I think this Writer’s Guild of America guidebook “Writing For Episodic TV” supports the idea that there isn’t necessarily a standard like “a Co-Exec always does X, Y, and Z.” The titles are useful as an indicator of the hierarchy, but we need to know more about the context of each show to know what the person with title X is necessarily doing, since this depends on how the show is run and what tasks his boss assigns him.

http://www.wga.org/uploadedFiles/writers_resources/ep3.pdf

That being said, yes, by the time Ronald D. Moore became a Co-Executive Producer for DS9, he certainly would have had a very high level of responsibility. I imagine that Ira Steven Behr, like any showrunner, would presumably delegate certain things and rely on people beneath him to help make sure that a variety of tasks get addressed. It seems only logical that the more senior writer-producers (like Moore and Hans Beimler in DS9 Seasons 6 and 7) would be the most likely ones to handle some of the more advanced, showrunner-type tasks in Behr’s stead as needed. So there is no doubt in my mind that Ronald D. Moore influenced the direction of DS9 a great deal. Still, Ira Steven Behr remained active as showrunner and had the most authority to steer the creative direction of DS9 from Seasons 3 -7.

95. Charla - August 2, 2014

#1 Harry- Hello!! Long time!! I have to agree with you, that they’d have my attention too with a Space 1999 reboot!!

96. Disinvited - August 2, 2014

#87. Cygnus-X1 – August 1, 2014

You make the assertion but I must have missed any concrete example that you provided of widows and orphans of musicians prior to 1976 rescued from poverty by your assertion of increased catalog valuation.

Meanwhile here’s a concrete example of how such benefits as Disney asserted are failing to be provided by the selfsame outfit even with the passage of everything they lobbied for:

http://www.deadline.com/2014/07/marvel-jack-kirby-supreme-court-reply-copyright-petition-captain-america-avengers-comic-con/

In regards to termination rights in the 1976 Act, which you yourself cited:

“Many of our most celebrated literary and musical works were created before 1978 and signed away to publishers in un-remunerative transactions. It would be hard to find a better example of this than the prolific Jack Kirby who worked in his basement with no contract, no financial security, and no employment benefits, but without whom Marvel might not even be in business today.” — The Estate of Jack Kirby which as yet has not been able to realize any of the added value that you assert.

And be aware, plenty of musicians are being stonewalled in this manner, as well.

“Even if the legal rule at issue affected only the multi-billion dollar franchises based on Kirby’s creations—X-Men, Thor, The Avengers, Captain America, Iron Man, and Hulk, for example—that would justify review, but the implications are much broader.” — amicus brief filed by SAG-AFTRA, the WGA and the DGA

97. Cygnus-X1 - August 2, 2014

94. CaliburnCY – August 2, 2014

I think this bit from the Wikipedia entry on TNG clears it up:

Prior to the production of the third season in the summer of 1989, some personnel changes were made. Head writer Maurice Hurley was let go and Michael Piller took over for the rest of the series. Creator and executive producer Gene Roddenberry took less of an active role due to his declining health. Roddenberry gave Piller and Berman the executive producer jobs, and they remained in that position for the rest of the series’s run, with Berman overseeing the production as a whole and Piller being in charge of the creative direction of the show and the writing room.

Berman, having served more time on TNG, got the Executive Producer title a season before Piller. Berman began Season 3 as Executive Producer with Piller as Co-Exec. Piller then got the Exec title at the beginning of Season 4.

So, it seems that Piller was given a title subordinate to Berman’s for one season because Piller was new to the show. As we’ve mentioned, Piller was basically doing the same job as Co-Exec during Season 3 as he was in Seasons 4-7 as Exec. And this does seem attributable to GR’s failing health, putting Piller and Berman in charge of the two hemispheres, if you will, of the production, but Piller being new to the show and it being appropriate to give him a lesser title for his first season on the job.

98. Cygnus-X1 - August 2, 2014

96. Disinvited – August 2, 2014

You make the assertion but I must have missed any concrete example that you provided of widows and orphans of musicians prior to 1976 rescued from poverty by your assertion of increased catalog valuation.

I’m not providing specific examples because it’s all based on mathematics which is universal.

A property which has the potential to generate revenue for 70 years is more valuable than a property which has the potential to generate revenue for 35 or 50 years. Apply that to any author you like.

Regarding the Termination Clause issue as it relates to Marvel, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make, but here’s what’s going on in that case:

Simply put, Kirby signed a contract back in the 1950s in which he agreed that all of his writing would be done as “work for hire,” which means that his employer would own it. In other words, Kirby signed away or “sold” (for consideration in the form of a salary or commission payments) his copyrights at the outset of his business relationship with Marvel. This has nothing to do with the issue that we were discussing—the issue of copyright term extension vis-a-vis public domain.

The Kirby heirs appear to be seeking to reap pecuniary benefit from extended copyrights in the same manner as Marvel/Disney is currently reaping those benefits. The issue is over who owns the copyrights, not whether those copyrights should be public domain.

Kirby executed a contract back in the 1950s signing away his rights to his product and his family is now seeking to nullify that contract. This has nothing to do with the issue that we were discussing.

99. Cygnus-X1 - August 2, 2014

96. Disinvited – August 2, 2014

P.S. But if it’s important to you, I’ll give you a well known example:

Don McLean, writer of the song, “American Pie.”

He was a one-hit wonder, but he makes a very nice living today off of the royalty income from that one hit. I’m sure that he put in a lot of time and work and investment into his career prior to finally getting a hit song. And I’m sure that he’s quite happy that the term of his copyright for that hit song was extended. So, there’s your concrete example. And there are hundreds of thousands more like it.

100. Harry Ballz - August 2, 2014

@95 Charla

Charla, nice to see you again! Why the long absence?

101. Marja - August 2, 2014

And how many people here know that the entire TOS cast only benefitted from residuals up to 10 re-runs?

No wonder they did conventions!

102. Cygnus-X1 - August 2, 2014

96. Disinvited – August 2, 2014

P.P.S. I’ll give you an even better example:

The heirs of legendary bluesman Robert Johnson (I think his son is his heir).

Without the 1998 Sonny Bono copyright Extension, Johnson’s son would have stopped earning royalties from his father’s work in 2011, being that his father was murdered in 1938 and his copyrights were published in 1936. The 1998 extension entitles Johnson’s son an additional 20 years of income from his father’s work—until 2031.

103. IDIC Lives! - August 3, 2014

Marja,

My own website has my name all over it but the UFO analyzing site where I am moderator – I have a moniker/avatar or whatever it is called, there too.

So if you signed onto that site (me having given you the URL here) using a name I would recognize (not Marja and incidentally, I don’t have access to email addresses on that site), and you made just one comment on any post, I would know.

So then, being sure it was you and not some mischievous person doing the same thing, I could guide you to my address.

I am really not this aloof or paranoid, it is just that there is no way not to give my real name on this site in order to send you an article or two, and since no one else does, why should I.

Disinvited: Thanks, but I don’t want to use the analytical website’s URL in my actual address here because it is not MY website, there is an owner. My own website has my name.

This is a silly problem. So, the analytical website is http://www.ufocasebook.com

104. Disinvited - August 3, 2014

#98. Cygnus-X1 – August 2, 2014

“The copyright extension has resulted in more money for musicians of all income levels because it makes their copyrights more valuable and they can get better deals for their work when dealing with publishing companies.” — Cygnus-X1

“I’m not providing specific examples because it’s all based on mathematics which is universal.” — Cygnus-X1

The mathematics of games of chance are universal and guarantee a payout but it is a hell of a leap to claim that it results in realizable equitable payouts to the subgroups you cite let alone be extrapolatable to the majority of copyright holders

And I thank you for directing me to the epitome of this in regards to U.S. copyright theory “mathematics”:

http://law.scu.edu/wp-content/uploads/hightech/Seeing%20But%20Not%20Hearing%20Music___by%20Olufunmilayo%20B_%20Arewa.pdf

abstract from Draft of 11:12 PM, 10/14/08:

SEEING BUT NOT HEARING MUSIC
HOW COPYRIGHT GOT (AND DIDN’T GET) THE BLUES

OLUFUNMILAYO B. AREWA*

ABSTRACT

… The incentive story of copyright assumes that copyright gives creators particular incentives to create new works and is based on notions about the incentives for and returns on investments in creative works that may be more tenuous in practice than is often assumed. Robert Johnson, now the foremost exemplar of the early blues era of recorded music, offers an example of the ways in which copyright incentives and rewards may play out in real world contexts of creation and performance. The case of Robert Johnson illustrates what many see as the proper operation of copyright. In reality, however, Johnson’s story belies many assumptions typically made about the operation of the incentive and reward in copyright. Further, Johnson’s posthumous copyright rewards may actually be more consistent with an incentive story that reflects the operation of copyright as a lottery, which has significant implications for our assumptions about incentives to create and the distribution of copyright rewards. This paper evaluates the ways in which broader cultural and business contexts, including pervasive segregation in the recording industry, shaped creation, reception and reward in the case of Robert Johnson and other early blues artists. It discusses the implications of conflicting readings of the Robert Johnson story for assumptions typically made in copyright theory about creation, incentive and reward.

* Associate Professor, Northwestern University School of Law. Email: o-
arewa@law.northwestern.edu.

105. Cygnus-X1 - August 3, 2014

104. Disinvited – August 3, 2014

Yeah, well you still haven’t said how the copyright extension has harmed you.

70 is greater than 50. That’s really not a leap. I’m not getting off onto tangents about segregation in the South and artists getting ripped-off by music publishers or simply signing bad deals due to lack of due diligence. There are thousands if not millions of possible scenarios by which artists might get ripped off. But having their income-earning potential extended is generally good for artists.

I you have a point to make about how the copyright extension has been bad for artists or bad for you, please make it.

106. Disinvited - August 3, 2014

# 105. Cygnus-X1 – August 3, 2014

” Yeah, well you still haven’t said how the copyright extension has harmed you.” — Cygnus-X1

By diminishing the public domain, the cornerstone of copyright in the U.S. Constitution, any extension of copyright not only costs me directly in terms of extended monetization across the board but indirectly as well as a citizen. Worse, it stifles the free and literally free flow of relatively recent ideas in art, literature and philosophy restricting it to only those who can afford to pay.

History seems to demonstrate to me that giving the most free speech to those that have the most money is not the most wise thing to do.

107. Cygnus-X1 - August 3, 2014

106. Disinvited – August 3, 2014

OK, so your complaint is about is about intellectual property not being free.

If there were no such thing as intellectual property protections, then products would necessarily be cheaper for you as a consumer because the inventor of that product would not have to be paid for his idea — this is your reasoning as I understand it.

And would there be as much incentive for the inventors of products, like musicians, to produce without pecuniary compensation?

If a musician has to work an extra job (or two) in order to make a living, because the only way that he can get paid as a musician is for playing live,
is he going to produce as much music (or as good quality music) as if he could devote himself to his art full-time? Are the musician, the publishing company and the record label going to invest as much effort, time and money into a music recording project if they know that they won’t be able to then charge people for its use? Would the elimination of intellectual property rights likely result in better quality records or in worse quality records? Would musicians spend 6 months in the studio recording albums if those sound recording were not going to bring in any monetary compensation via licensing fees?

Do a bit of research into the history of popular music and the music industry, and get back to me with your answer.

108. Keachick (Rose) - August 5, 2014

#71 Spock was made half human by his very human mother called Amanda, the woman Sarek, a pure vulcan, chose to marry and have a child with. How dare you forget that?

This nuSpock may not understand everything that goes with being human but he does empathise love because that is what he received unconditionally from his HUMAN mother`and that is similar to what Nyota Uhura is able to give him. His growth as a person come from his endeavour to return same.

109. Keachick (Rose) - August 5, 2014

If nuSpock marries Nyota or any other human woman, he will most likely face what his father faced – becoming a widower, just as human men and women from the beginning of time, the possibility of being made widows and widowers. There is nothing new or particularly different about Spock in this respect. He will do as any other in the same position – either remain single or marry again.

110. Jemini - August 9, 2014

42. Curious Cadet – July 30, 2014

@20. Marja,
“The irony is, Roddenberry was setting in place the seeds for a Spock/Uhura relationship in TOS [witness "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X"], but that was considered wayyy too far out”

I think there’s more to it than that. Just like they realized they had to get rid of Janice Rand as Kirk’s pretty yeoman to prevent a shipboard relationship from developing, they realized Spock couldn’t either. It really was Kirk & Spock, and eventually McCoy. A girlfriend in there anywhere for any of them would have ruined what the series became. Kirk had many romantic liaisons, and his history was rife with girlfriends. Nobody ever said Spock went through life celibate, but he was intentionally kept single. As was McCoy. All were given pasts with significant others, but none were given active, on-going relationships, they were always ended whenever explored.

So whatever anyone thinks about the NuSpock/Uhura relationship, it is most definitely not something that was part of TOS, and was seemingly intentionally avoided by all concerned at the time. If Abrams Trek is supposed to be reflective of the original, they are taking great liberties with it in the new film, and arguably doing significant damage as well with the romance. It’s just not what TOS was about.
——————-

or maybe we simply aren’t in the 60s anymore, you know.
I wish some star trek would stop romanticizing the past and turning problematic things like sexism and racism into ‘qualities’ simply because their favorite things benefit from them. I understand people liking something the way it is (but you still have your tos dvds, you know) but I don’t understand the inherent hypocrisy here.

Context matters. You wouldn’t have the same story had the show been made today instead of the 60s and if it wasn’t subjected to the HUGE limits of that era. Limits that it’s ridiculous to want apply to a reboot set in another reality and made 50 years later.

I get that you like a story where only the dudes matter and women are erased (or used just as a decoration/background) because, apparently, women are just a distraction (the greek ideal might be of your interest…) but pretending that your ‘perfect’ story about dudes only wasn’t the direct result of problematic things like sexism, racism and common stereotypes of the type (like the fact that Spock would never be allowed to be something more than the hero sidekick) that can, and should, be fixed in 2014 is very disingenuous. Even more so when you are criticizing Abrams&co as if they were the ones being ‘shallow’ because they essentially don’t want to use the same problematic formula because, heck, they don’t live in the 60s.

In the words of Nichelle Nichols, Roddenberry HAD wanted Spock/Uhura and the only reason he didn’t have that was the racism and sexism of the era. Not because he liked it better for Spock to be single. He was simply limited by the time and couldn’t do everything he wanted with the characters but you like it or not, he never intended to Spock to be a monk and never have a girlfriend ever.
and frankly? how he could be against that? he had an alien who is half human are we supposed to believe that all the ‘fun’ one can have with that kind of character is through his platonic relationships with other dudes? I mean, thank you for those. Sure. Been there, done that but ok let’s see it again, I guess. But yeah, I guess some of us welcome the chance to have different things too since, you know, a reboot is supposed to be a tad different and explore stuff that the old thing couldn’t explore.
I, for one, like that this Spock gets the chance to understand that he’s both his father’s son and his mother’s son. He has something in common with Sarek, he’s challenged by the very same thing that challenged his father and his ‘contradiction’ is finally explained to him.
In a way, he’s much more challenged as a character than Nimoy Spock was because this Spock is pushed to find that balance between his sides (and stop pretending he is who is will never be) sooner.

111. Jemini - August 9, 2014

I’m sure endlessly sanctifying male homosocial relationships in media in a fit of proto-nostalgia seems like an awesome idea/respecting the source/kissing the ring of the progenitor of slash to fandom, but it’s highly problematic at the very least to want to hold a modern remake of that story to this same standard when rampant misogyny and racism were a huge part of the environment that made the prominence of those original dynamics so possible. (..)
This is a different story made in a different time with different needs shaped by a different cultural mindset. (And don’t even get me started on how that helps dictate the fact that Spock gets to have a relationship at all instead of just being the Othered Nerdy Jewish Friend of Hero, mostly because we currently, as a society, love nerdy jew boys.) The dynamics should change.

— peri peteia, Star Trek: AOS fandom, Relationships, Misogyny, and You: A COLLATION

meta written in 2009 but they might as well have written that for some people here…

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