BREAKING: Guess Who’s Coming To Dinner? The Klingons!

 Casting news from “Star Trek: Discovery”

Star Trek: Discovery with Klingon

This just in: Chris Obi, Shazad Latif and Mary Chieffo will be beaming aboard Star Trek: Discovery, presumably with their Bat’leths. They’ll be playing Klingons, Federation adversaries in the time period Discovery is set in–ten years before James T. Kirk becomes Captain of the U.S.S. Enterprise.

Last month we learned that Doug Jones, Anthony Rapp and Michelle Yeoh had been tapped to be the crew members on the Discovery and the Shenzhou, so now they’ll have some company.

klingon_gif_sm

From StarTrek.com:

Obi will play T’Kuvma, the Klingon leader seeking to unite the Klingon houses. His credits include State of Play, Doctor Who, Snow White and the Huntsman, and the recent Roots reboot, as well as the upcoming series American Gods and film Ghost in the Shell.

Latif is set to portray Kol, commanding officer of the Klingons and protégé of T’Kuvma. Latif has appeared in such films and television series as MI-5, Black Mirror, The Second Best Exotic Marigold Hotel and Penny Dreadful. Among his upcoming projects are Still Star-Crossed and The Commuter.

Chieffo rounds out the latest wave of additions with her role as L’Rell, the battle deck commander of the Klingon ship. The actress’s credits include a 2015 stage production of Othello, and film and television roles in Natural Disasters, Girls!, Girls!, Girls! and Miss Dial, as well as Shelby’s Vacation, which will be released in 2017.

Official CBS Press Release


Star Trek: Discovery will dock at CBS All Access in May 2017, following the premiere on CBS broadcast Television, and will be distributed concurrently on Netflix in 188 countries and on CTV in Canada.

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I saw something about Netflix footing the entire bill for STD. Can anyone confirm that officially? Is it still pay to view on CBS All Access?

No, CBS said the show was already profitable thanks to Netflix’s international deal. That’s not the same as Netflix footing the entire bill.

ST:DSC is still exclusive to CBS All Access in the United States.

And in the age of online streaming, this will need to hit a high to be renewwed. Somehow I don’t see that happening. Ratings will not reflect the investment from Netflix. Regardless of the netflix ratings, this is all about American suckers to be drawn in to CBS’s online service.
CBS isn’t about to give away rights to trek any time soon, so it’s going to become toxic to anyone other than CBS.

Thanks CBS for adding another 10 years into Trek’s possible return to TV.

Be under no illusions, this is a TOS reboot under another name.

Either watch or do not. You have a good 700 episodes of original Star Trek if you want to call it that. A lot of it not exactly great…

I say wait to criticise it until you have seen it.

It is still going to be on CBS All Access in the US. I’m sure Netflix paid good money to get the international rights but I doubt they would be paying for all of production.

If you check over at trekcore you will see that CBS has confirmed that the Netflix deal has completely covered the production cost for season 1 of Discovery.

If I remember correctly, the comment was that the fee Netflix was paying for International distribution was enough to cover actual production of the series — not that Netflix was in some way buying the property away from CBS All Access.

@VorlonKosh,

Yep, Leslie Moonves said that last week in New York and it was reported by The Hollywood Reporter and others.

=====================================

He also said that the show is basically free for All Access, since Netflix covered the entire cost of producing the show when it licensed it for streaming in foreign markets. “Netflix, to us, is truly a friend,” Moonves said.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/leslie-moonves-says-early-days-figuring-cbs-should-merge-viacom-952690

CBS Corp. chief executive Les Moonves said the broad-reaching international sale of his company’s new Star Trek incarnation to Netflix paid for the show’s entire production budget.

Netflix just took it off the table for the rest of the world,” Moonves told media investors at an annual UBS conference Monday. “Basically, Star Trek is going on CBS All Access for free.

http://www.fiercecable.com/online-video/moonves-netflix-int-l-sales-pay-for-entire-star-trek-production-cost

VorlonKosh, Who cares: Before the NETFLIX deal Moonves said back in November of 2015: http://seekingalpha.com/article/3641706-cbs-cbs-leslie-moonves-q3-2015-results-earnings-call-transcript “Regarding Star Trek, as I said earlier, it is the family jewels. We have known from our information that all the STAR TREK series have done exceedingly well in streaming. It doesn’t come as a great surprise, but it’s the hippest, it’s the coolest, even the ones that were done 30 years, 40 years ago still resonate today, and all the series have done extremely well in terms of streaming. Added into that, as I said earlier, STAR TREK is a huge international franchise, so our international distribution guy is going crazy. He can’t wait to get out to the marketplace and sell that. So right away we’re going to be more than halfway home on the cost of the show just from international alone.” — Les Moonves; President CEO and Director of CBS Corp.; Nov. 3, 2015 THIRD QUARTER RESULTS EARNINGS CALL TRANSCRIPT After NETFLIX Moonves said: http://seekingalpha.com/article/3992999-cbs-corporations-cbs-ceo-leslie-moonves-q2-2016-results-earnings-call-transcript “We also struck a significant international deal with Netflix for STAR TREK, licensing our new series, STAR TREK: DISCOVERY, to 188 Netflix countries around the world, virtually everywhere but North America. In addition, we also licensed all 727 previous episodes of our STAR TREK library. Plus, we struck a similar deal with Bell Media for Canada. As a result, STAR TREK: DISCOVERY, our new series, is profitable and we haven’t even begun production, and we still have additional windows to sell the show in second and… Read more »

Those earlier comments were when they were still looking at conventional markets for foreign sales. Netflix wiped all of those off the table for exclusive rights in 188 countries.

Yeah I think Netflix changed the game because before it was talked about like the show would just air on traditional TV stations in other parts of the world but then Netflix made them an offer they couldn’t refuse. Its also why I think Fuller was kicked off the project because CBS wants this out ASAP now that Netflix has essentially paid for their show and probably want it out pronto. I dont think they wouldve been happy with an even further delays.

But CBS is going to make a killing on this deal which means its going to get at least another season automatically because CBS didn’t have to foot the bill this season. Unless this thing tanks so badly that All Access is shut down my guess is CBS is going to see a nice profit even if the subscriber base isn’t huge first year.

Tiger2, Who cares, & Ahmed,

I see. Thanks for bringing me up to date.

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate’s life for me!!

The big question: Forehead ridges or smooth? Or a mix?

A mix would probably make the most sense, but I suspect they’ll go with all ridged. Doing a mix would have to mean talking about Affliction/Divergence, and I doubt they’ll want to turn off new viewers with continuity from Enterprise. Either way, Klingons are awesome no matter what they look like.

Think a hybrid look a la Star Trek VI could work well. Hopefully there’ll be plenty of D7 action! If that’s the case, I’d love their production design to take inspiration from the Amar in the opening scene of TMP.

Yes!! Following the actions of the Klingons “Hunt for Red October” style and setting up some D7 vs. Connie strategic battles has me excited! Makes you think someone is thinking “Hey.. this show should be like wagon Train…. to the Stars”.

As long as they don’t use the design from Into Darkness I’ll be happy. Or even if they do use the design from Into Darkness I’ll be pretty happy, but I’ll complain a lot.

Technically they should be smooth headed if it’s set 10 years before TOS. Since they lost the ridges in ENT and still hadn’t regained them by TOS it would break the cannon a bit.

Maybe we shall see them in different uniforms as they search for a look that goes with their smooth heads?

Canon is meaningless & often changed from episode to episode. Personally I hope they just ignore the smooth forehead Klingons entirely.

Agreed. Just pretend like the smooth heads never existed. Its 3 seasons of a show from 50 years ago vs all the later shows and films where people are use to seeing the ridges. Enterprise kept the ridges originally and no one blinked.

IIRC Enterprise stated not ALL of them had the defect, just a segment of them. I guess this is the time to hit Memory Alpha lol. But honestly I prefer the ridges if they are only doing one. Yes the smooth guys was canon on TOS but the majority of people who watch Star Trek today knows the Klingons through the ridges since then.

And oh yeah they were also portrayed that way in the KT films as well and yes different universe but still all canon with Enterprise so my guess is it will stay ridges.

Qapla’

I was thinking about this last week. I seriously doubt CBS All Access will have the entire season on the streaming from day one like Netflix does with their shows like Orange is the New Black, House of Cards and what not. Because people would watch the entire season and then cancel the subscription. They will probably release a new episode every few weeks to make you have to pony up for the entire year of the service. Why can’t Netflix have it here in the US?

I think they already announced they are releasing it weekly, and I am glad they are. If they released it all at once, I would just binge the entire season, and then have to wait at least a year for new Star Trek.

Doesn’t releasing it weekly defeat the purpose of using a streaming service?

@ Gary 8.5: Putting it out on a streaming service doesn’t imply any specific release schedule. It seems like production or at least post production will still be ongoing when they release the pilot, and they will be finishing the episodes while in release. One thing that differs from normal TV is that they said in one of the interviews that they can be more flexible in terms of the runtime of the episodes, so some episodes may be slightly longer than others.

Netflix doesn’t release all of their shows an entire season at a time. Several of them are weekly releases.

“Doesn’t releasing it weekly defeat the purpose of using a streaming service?”

Er…. no. Not at all.

No why would it? Hulu and Yahoo also have streaming sites and release their shows once a week. I think the Mindy Project and Community were both done that way when they ended up on streaming sites.

But yes thats why Netflix is so popular. It has really spoiled us lol. But no not everyone does that way nor need to but it is a great bonus.

No….as you’ll some sort of of code or authentication directly from CBS access

in order to view it. I’m certain after the 1st season it be produced and released

on a monthly basis anyhow.

Doesn’t it always come down to paper and coins?

No reflection upon the casting, or comments, or quality (or not) of the show, but there’s still no way I’m adding yet another streaming service to my roster to see ONE show. Even if it’s Trek.

I subscribed to All Access over 6 months ago for a lot more than just Trek. I’ve even upgraded to the commercial free tier already. Granted that due to geographic issues I am unable to recieve broadcast TV and perhaps if I could that might change my point if view, but its not likely as I vastly prefer to be able to watch a show when I choose.

Redstone changes his mind and Viacom
& CBS will not merge. So any hope of the two sides of Star Trek being rejoined is out the door.

“T’Kuvma” and especially “L’Rell” don’t sound very Klingon, do they? How would they be spelled in Marc Okrand’s usual transcription?

Fictional language, fictional species, & how is L’Rell any less Klingon than Lursa?

My objection was mainly to them staring with a consonant and an apostrophe, but now I looked at the list of Klingons on Memory Alpha and there are a lot of such names, with various initial consonants. It seems I could really use some new Star Trek to refresh my memory.

Yeah it sounds fine to me but admittedly the only Klingon names I remember is stuff like Worf and Chang lol.

And yeah we have to remember Klingons are a big species as Earth. Think how many crazy names are all over the planet are. Thats a diverse population made up of many nations, cultures, religions, etc. Just because they dont sound like what we heard before doesn’t mean they aren’t Klingon, just different from what we personally know.

L’Rell is fine! But T’Kuvma sounds Vulcan. I guess it’s the T at the start that we identify with T’Pring, T’Pol etc…

@ smike: Until Tuvok came along all male Vulcan names started with an “S” and ended with a “K”. Tuvok still kept the “K” at the end. So T’Kuvma wouldn’t fit in with established Vulcan names for men.

Not true.

Stonn was Spock’s rival in “Amok Time.”

Sitar was cited as a brilliant theoretical physicist in TOS’ “The Ultimate Computer (he probably also rocked out to some Ravi Shankar).

Skon and Solkar were Spock’s grandfather, and great-grandfather respectively, referenced in Star Trek III.

Kiri-kin-tha was an ancient Vulcan philosopher cited in Star Trek IV.

Pola was a young Vulcan boy on the Enterprise in “The Last Outpost.”

Sakkath accompanied Sarek in the latter’s eponymous TNG episode.

Lojal was a Vulcan in the first season DS9 episode “The Forsaken.”

Taurik was serving aboard the Enterprise in “Lower Decks.”

Delvok was a composer cited by Dax in the episode “Melora.”

All the above examples occurred before VOY was even fully developed or cast.

@Eric Cheung

You forgot Xon, the Vulcan science officer who died beaming up to the Enterprise in TMP.

True. Though, I admit I was using Memory Alpha’s listing of Vulcans for research. For some reason, Xon is listed as an “individual,” but not a “Vulcan,” because his only on-screen canon reference is in a piece of artwork in Star Trek II, as a captain of unidentified origin.

T’Kuvma –> >tIquvma’ >lI’rel >qol<

Ooops, darn formatting codes.
T’Kuvma — tI’quvma’
L’Rell — lI’rel
Kol — qol

“Again with the Klingons” (Shatner facepalm)

Curious Cadet,

Well so much for STAR TREK unification. The Redstones halt CBS & VIACOM merger:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/business/media/redstones-reverse-course-and-put-halt-to-viacom-cbs-merger.html

Interesting. No doubt that Moonves expressed concerns that both companies would suffer as they tried to right the ship that is the floundering Viacom.

Bakish, is not the type of guy I’d expect to be an effective leader, but he would be excellent in a reorganization capacity. He might be the guy to get the ship sailing on a steady course again, before CBS is invited to absorb it and make it grow.

But it basically means Trek will continue as a divided property, and Paramount will either need to get on board with CBS, or go it alone as Bad Robot has been for most of a decade. I still think Bad Robot is out. But that’s less of a certainty now. In fact, maybe Moonves didn’t want to take on Paramount now until all of the deals set in place like Grey’s BR first look had expired.

All well thats sucks. :(

But in all honesty I don’t think it would have any big impact on the current projects. More than likely they will try and get at least one more BR film out and Discovery is now ramping up. Any major differences would be after these like a set of new films or something. Anyway it sucks but probably no big difference to stuff in the near future if it did merged. But yes there would at least be a difference in terms of content distribution like getting Star Trek films on All Access (still odd they have all the shows on there but none of the films) and etc.

Basically, Viacom now thinks they can turn things around and is worth more than CBS’s Les Moonves is willing to pay, so they each go it alone – for now. If Mr. Bakish’s optimistic plan fails and Viacom continues to do bad, the valuation will drop even more, and then CBS can swoop in and get it for the price they want – ultimately Moonves wants this to be a purchase-and-absorbtion of Viacom, with CBS and its proven team taking over everything. Which does make sense given the current status of both companies. If Mr Batish’s team succeeds, however, then the stockholders of the two companies – most of them own stock in both – get a bigger return on investment, and they’re happy. So with the exception of the one or two properties currently split in half – Star Trek being the only one I can think of – this is not bad news. Moonves and the CBS stockholders don’t want to overpay and impact their ability to continue to do the things making CBS successful. Check back in a year or two and see where Viacom’s turnaround stands.

Well this is exciting!!! Yeah we all kind of knew it was going to have a heavy Klingon emphasis the day Fuller said it would feel like TUC.

But now this is exciting and I never really been a huge fan of Klingons. I mean I always liked them but I can take them or leave them. But I have to say if this is done anything like TUC or the Klingon war arc on DS9 (which is what made me love them) then it should be really good. I sense its going to be an espionage type of story line. And if they manage to get Section 31 involved somehow as rumored I would be on board even if I hate its a prequel. This is good news though.

Klingon action is good. I approve this news. Come on Discovery, make a believer out of me, you can do it!

It goes from worse to terrible. Frankenstein klingon/Terran ship, Klingons and a prequel.

A disappointment to anyone under the age of 40.
I was just never in the slightest bit interest in any Klingon filler episodes.
Well, at least when I said I’ll be boycotting it I can now do it with conviction. Doubt it will make even the smallest bit of difference.
I genuinely hope it will not get a 2nd season.

God what is with some of you people – Boycott Beyond, Boycott Discovery. Get a grip, it’s a show. It’s not a political, moral or social issue of great importance at stake – its a science fiction show. Grow up.

But in reality Im fine with the idea that if you dont like it, dont watch. I mean, by all means I’d encourage sound reviews and reasonable criticism. For the most part, we get that here. But the lugnuts who just hear about a general idea and are already disavowing their Trek fandom are really not fans to begin with.

Wasn’t one whining post to a single trek board enough? You had to share your insightful lament to at least two?

On Trekcore as “Xandercom”
“It goes from worse to terrible.
I guess I was just never in the slightest bit interest in any Klingon filler episodes.
Well, at least when I said I’ll be boycotting it I can now do it with conviction.
There goes the last shred of excitement, I had hoped that Bryan being given the sack would have changed the course of this train wreak.
As far as I’m concerned, the only thing to make this any worse would be putting Michael Dorn in charge.
I am so utterly, utterly disappointed.
I shan’t even be giving my 4K Netflix sub the satisfaction of a viewcount.”

Why? It sounds like a show I wanted twenty years ago. Instead they gave me Voyager. :P

Life will go on for you, its not the end of the world.

@Carboy, if you send the producers a nice note, they might create an entirely new Star Trek series just for you.

Exactly Harry! And for the billionth time it’s not a “Frankenstein klingon/Terran ship”. http://trek.fm/saturday-morning-trek/s1

While I agree, Klingons are not my favorite species, modern storytelling may actually fix that. If you can expand and enlarge the Klingons beyond “Grrrr! Honor!” then good on Discovery!

“I genuinely hope it will not get a 2nd season.” It’s sad that you actually spent time actively wishing the cast and crew failure.

Grow up

Can somebody finally tell me how they explained the different look of the Klingons, i.e. ridged foreheads VS smooth foreheads? I know it was mentioned in the DS9 episode Trials and Tribble-ations but I never saw it… Was it ever explained at all?

Thank you Matt! But what a load of crap. They went out of their way to over complicate matters. There’s nothing to explain; the ridges were not there in TOS because of budgets constraints! Why don’t they also explain why all the sets look like cardboard and non-realistic?

Oh yeah, ENT tried too hard to make an in-universe explanation. But of course the subject keeps coming up even today :-)

It was a solid story at the time. And this goes against most of what I’d normally say, but they probably should have ignored it. DS9 probably did more damage by making the smooth heads seemingly unknown when in reality, it should be pretty common knowledge considering the important of specific smooth heads in their interactions with the Federation.

An alternate reason might have been that the Klingons specifically altered groups of Klingons to interact with species that more closely resemble “humans” and when there became a time when it was no longer required, either restored them (as we saw with Kang etc) or killed them. But thats not a very interesting story.

This is sometimes the problem when fans are so nit picky about canon. I agree with you they didn’t need to explain it all but it seem to be a big personal hole with some fans so the writers decided it was time to give it an in-world explanation. I think what they came up was OK but seriously it was not needed. Truth was at the time the show couldn’t afford to do more or that was the direction they had but later they changed it, leave it as that.

That said though, now there is an explanation people can reference if it makes them feel better.

The Klingons have been done to death! Ad Naseum! So much for showing even a hint of imagination on this “new” show! Next!

IDK. I’ve been watch’in a little Next gen lately. Worfs been growing on me. But that name still sucks. I think I have been dumbed down by Trek.

Who knows how bad it could get.

So if they do really high quality storytelling with the Klingons, thats bad but if they do lousy story telling with a brand new species, that’s great because its “new”?

Some people need to think about what they’re writing before they hit “Post Comment” and stop assuming their half baked opinions are correct.

I am on board for some good writing.

It’s been so long for Trek to have good writing. IMO.

Don’t Litter!

Hey, Harry, TUP.

I am still waiting on my review of PICK ASS 2 – at my website!

Don’t Litter!

Klingons – No…..The Butthead aliens – Yes or better yet interdimensional beings

would work also….

This whole ‘stories taking place at various locales among different empires’ really sounds like GAME OF CAPTAIN’S CHAIRS, like they’re taking GoT and really trying to futurize it. Neat trick if they can pull it off to anyone’s satisfaction, but then again, I’m not a big fan of GoT (have probably seen maybe 20 episodes out of how many seasons?)

It could be that but to me it just sounds like it will be various ships going on a mission together. I guess when the first teaser said ‘New Crews’ they really meant it. BTW started watching GOT first time few months ago. Yeah at the beginning it was losing me but now I get way people love it so much. At the start of 5th season now. Just so layered but yeah certainly not for everyone.

mj what happened to prodigal?

Uh why do you keep calling me mj??? I’m not mj, I’m Tiger, the same one who has been writing here since 2011. Mj is a different person.

And I added the ‘2’ when I switched email accounts. It wouldn’t just let me use Tiger since that was apparently taken ;). Hope that clarifies it.

Thats a good point, What DID happen to Prodigal? Did he get caught doing something he shouldn’t and get booted? Our dear friend Rose isnt around much either. So relaxed around here lately. ;)

my attempt at a translation…
they have chosen the pretender
engage fire!
(a nod to current political events?)

ugh. no deal.

I suspect that some of the Klingons may have forehead ridges and some not. This will cause a civil war because the ridged Klingons thinks they deserve to lead the empire, because they are the naturals. Maybe the others will conspire with the romulans and get cloaking devices during the show and stuff like that, causing the ridged klingons to put a time bomb on praxis (or however it is spelled). At the end of the show the timer can be deactivated, but the bomb is still inside of the moon, causing a heavy risk for the entire population of the klingons. But the government decides to still use the moon for mining, because they just had all resources burned in a terrible civil war and need everything they can get. Show over.

To add smtg: This would make the connection to everything Bryan Fuller stated so far for Discovery. The connection to balance of terror is the cloaking device that we first see in this episode. What we never really got to know is how the klingons received the technology. Praxis is the connection to ST:VI. And they could also explain, why the romulans in TNG have these bulbs over their eye brows and seem to have less honor than in TOS. The reason for this could be that they want the genetic material of the klingons to improve themselves eugenically and finally do so. That causes them to look and act a little bit differently than in TOS. (But they still needed to explain somehow, why the romulans are not able to genetically improve themselves with their own knowledge).

Almost forgot to mention the Discovery: They, of course, are on a mission to discover smtg., but what they discover (the plan of the Klingons), let’s the federation freeze. And they decide to let section 31 handle that. Since section 31 does not have ships, they need the Discovery to handle that. Why the Discovery? Because the crew already knows. And no one else should (for preventing panic). But working with section 31 is really a pain in the a**, because they don’t seem care about moral, ethics and stuff in a smaller sense. And there you have the basic conflict Star Trek is all about.

Maybe the Discovery also shall support the 3 new Klingons from the news, helping them to take over the empire. A perfectly good conflict situation.
Dammit, I need to stop thinking of it. Have work to do. :)

Oh My! Klingons on Star Trek!

Nothing ever changes. Star Trek fans continue to be the whiniest people in the whole galaxy.

I’ll be sorely disappointed if they don’t have at least one “Oh, you’re a Klingon guy? But I was expecting a Vulcan lady!” joke. :P

sixtiesplastictrektableware

Wow.
So, we went with the racist reference to the Klingons?
No other way to do it, huh?

Well.
I see we have a Long way to go.

That jumped out at me too. Im not sure if its as bad as my gut instinct says it is. Either way, its a widely accepted racist remark. Surprised to see it here.

Wait, I missed something. Could you explain, because now I’m really curious.

It’s the “Guess who’s coming to dinner” line in the header, which actually refers to a line in Undiscovered Country and an somewhat controversial movie from the 1960s of the same name about a woman who brings her black boyfriend to dinner with her parents.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061735/

… sure wish I could edit my posts!!

I meant to add that this meeting challenges the traditional (racist) attitudes of the woman’s parents. Oh, and they were engaged, not just bf/gf.

aaannnyway…

If this is true then the definition of racism must now read: “everything and anything once said with regards to a person of color, whether or not the statement itself implies superiority or inferiority of said person of color.”

No it should read anything that is widely considered racist. if I recall Nichols didnt want the “Guess who’s coming to dinner” line in TUC because it disgusted her to say it.

Im generally not one to suggest this, but I’d ask this site to amend the header. It’s rather distasteful. I’ll assume the headline writer just didnt get the broader reference.

Eh I’m black it never bothered me. Of course I don’t speak for all black people, its just my personal opinion but it was the name of a now landmark movie and yes used in TUC which sounds like Dsc ties into somewhat, its nothing wrong with using it. And I can understand why Nichols didn’t want to say the line which is understandable but its still there nevertheless.

I might be missing something here but didn’t Walter Koenig say that line? Though Nichols did have a pretty nasty line at one point: ‘Did you see the way they ate?’. Perhaps she had a problem with that.

Nichols was the one who was originally was suppose to say the line but according to sources she refused to say it because she found it offensive so they gave it to Koenig. At least from what I read. And maybe she felt offended because they were asking a black woman to say the line or just hated it for racial implications, I don’t know. But yeah end of the day it was a funny line and the writer of this piece made a great call back to it. No big deal no one used the N word.

@Tiger – it was used in TUC solely because of its racist connotations. In fact, Nichols refused to say the line (if I recall) so it was given to Chekov.

A phrase doesnt have to be offensive to ALL people to be an offensive phrase. We can argue forever about this. But the fact this phrase exists as a racist statement (whether you attribute it as a harmless racist statement or a more nasty one) and this site used that statement in a headline is rather disappointing.

And I question whether the headline writer knew of its meaning beyond the TUC reference.

I’ve seen the N word used a lot in major films but you wont see the word in a headline here.

Im white. And it offends it. If it doesnt offend others, thats cool. Poor choice of words though. I think we can agree on that.

TUP,

And what of Chekov? While I welcomed the opportunity of the character’s inclusion to the series’ crew to add to the fight, against the anti-Russian bigotry in my nation, that THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. started, I couldn’t help but notice that they couldn’t do it without having the character fly dangerously close to the flame of Russian supremacist for the sake of humor. Which I suppose was what made him the easy choice in DAY OF THE DOVE to be manipulated by the entity into an out and out Klingon bigot?

This was also what disturbed me in VI’s treatment of a character that was created initially as an on the home screen paean to celebrate Russians and their being friends in space at a time when the nation was full of extreme fear-based anti-Russian vitriol. I mean, really? In VI, it was as if not a one of them, let alone Chekov, remembered any of the lessons that they learned in DAY OF THE DOVE? To see him reduced in this movie due to these line logistics to a Klingon bigot racist line spewing buffoon too stupid to know beforehand that those boots weren’t going to fit, bothered me as the obvious theme of the movie was for it to be a parable about embracing this new future and against holding on to such foolishness brought about by Russian fear-monger based bigotry.

@Dis – I agree. There were several lines that I could have done without but they were included, even though *too* on the nose, to illustrate a point. Whereas I liked Chekov’s “inalienable human rights” line, I disliked the “guess who’s coming to dinner” line. If he was aware of that phrase enough to use it in that context, he must have been aware of its meaning in the 20th century (or its a big coincidence).

I think it was Uhura who said something about the way they eat… I am on the fence about. I’ve heard people say that now about other ethnicity due to a cultural difference in how certain foods are eaten. Is it racist? Or an observation, negative or otherwise?

The two assassins being racist didnt bother me because they were vile killers anyway.

One thing that always bugged me and I might be missing something. Spock’s whole line of reasoning that the gravity boots must be on board didnt make sense. Why couldnt the assassins have beamed to or from the cloaked Bird of Prey? They still had Valaris on the Enterprise who could have altered the databanks…

I know that TUP all I’m saying is I wasn’t offended. Hell I saw the movie in the Chinese theater in Hollywood and when Chekhov said it it got one of the biggest laughs in the movie.

But to imply the author of this piece was trying to be racist when he was simply calling back a moment in a movie, one of the most popular films in the franchise at that is RIDICULOUS. He only said it because that came from the film. My god, people are looking to be offended about every little thing. Its the NAME OF A MOVIE. Have you tried to get that film removed from shelves 50 years later? Is anyone boycotting it?

And no we CAN’T agree its a poor choice of words. You can feel that way personally but few people here seemed remotely bothered by it and was never mentioned until you brought it up. And thats your right, I’m not getting on your case for it, I just find it insulting you think the writer was making a racial headline when all he/she did was referencing it from a film…about Klingons. If it wasn’t in the film then clearly it wouldn’t be in the headline. Get a grip. Everyone is always looking to be offended.

@Tiger2 I dont think the writer is racist. I questioned whether the writer (and we dont know if the article writer also chose the headline) knew the phrase beyond the TUC reference.

Regardless, we all agree its a *racial* reference, whether we agree or disagree that it’s actually racist. Im surprised it hasn’t been changed, to be honest.

If Chekov had dropped the N bomb, would that be fair game for a headline? Its not the same, but its in the same realm.

***No worries about confusing me with someone else. Fair opinion either way Tiger.

Ok fine. But I don’t think comparing to N word over saying guess who is coming to dinner is the same lol. First off mostly because most people under 30 wouldn’t even get that reference. One person here didn’t get it. Its only known by the film it was named after. Or was it some of saying before then??? Again I wasn’t around at that time but I would guess no so why I think its kind of silly to make a big deal out of it now, thats all. I never saw it as ‘racist’ personally. It was the name of a POPULAR award winning film and that phrase became popular over it. Again from what I know but its the only time I heard it. And not again until incidentally TUC, literally 25 years later so yeah. I don’t think the average person would even blink if they heard that phrase unless they know about the movie.

But OK, fine, your point is well taken. My main issue is I thought you were accusing th writer of racism but you explained you weren’t.

Actually I do apologize TUP you weren’t the one to start this topic, someone else did. I got confused so sorry about the mix up.

Trump’s Tribble,

Re: racism must now read: “everything and anything once said with regards to a person of color, whether or not the statement itself implies superiority or inferiority of said person of color.”

Surely, you realize that many racist remarks originate not with words having no such original meaning in and of themselves whatsoever, but it is the way they are voiced by the racist that reveals the ill intent with which it is meant and which turns it into a despised epithet, a snide intonation that makes the word a screw which is turned to inflict pain and discomfort. Niger was just a region on the continent of Africa.

Disinvited,

“..not with words having no such original meaning in and of themselves whatsoever,…” should be “…not with words having ANY such original meaning in and of themselves whatsoever,…”

You know I love how Tiger2 admits that his personal opinion is his own, and that he doesn’t speak for all black people. If only more white people on these boards felt the same way.

Tobeornottobe2,

Re: If only more white people on these boards felt the same way.

Now how exactly are you determining the ethnicity of the comments that you attribute to white people typing that need to feel that way?

Or were you just planning to fall back on variations of that old saw, “Funny, you don’t look Jewish.” on your way to an apology?

I say something fairly positive regarding Tiger and that makes me a racist.
Interesting.
Look, nothing personal Dis but I don’t think there’s any need to get sanctimonious re: Guess Who’s Coming To Dinner. Sensitivity is a good thing but I think we’re getting to that point now we’re maybe some people are seeing what they want to see (unless you’e accusing Aaron of racial insensitivity in using the line for his article heading?). People here are talking about the latest interesting tidbits of DISC information and it would be nice if they could do that in peace without the usual suspects taking the whole thing seriously off topic.

Tobeornottobe2,

Re: I say something fairly positive regarding Tiger and that makes me a racist.

No, saying something positive about Tiger2 didn’t make you a racist. But the fact that you couldn’t do it without noting his ethnicity AND saying something NEGATIVE about another group with the extra special added proviso that it was one that you just assumed as you had absolutely no way of knowing the ethnicity of writers of comments that offend you so. This fact that you actually sincerely believe that you can iron clad identify said writings’ ethnicity – well, THAT’S what reveals your racist tendencies, i.e. your unreasoning bias spun up solely out of preconceived notions.

If you are now openly calling me a racist, then you have crossed over from debate and into the realm of serious trolling. I’d get angry about it if it weren’t so pathetic (certainly the news of my so-called hatred towards black people will come as a surprise to my bi-racial nephew and neice). I don’t know what it is about you Dis, whether you need more bran in your diet or maybe need to take a long lie down in a dark room, but you obviously need to do something. This-‘behaviour’-of yours has been a problem on these pages for quite some time and I can’t be the only one who’s noticed it. You’re the one person here who will treat an opposing view as if somebody just pissed all over their shoes, and even when somebody offers you an olive branch to settle an argument (as I think I may have done in another talkback) you’re liable to try to choke them with it. Other people here have passionately held views-TUP for example-but they don’t defend them with quite the same kind of naked aggression, nor do they descend to the level of childish name-calling when they think reasoned, logical arguments might not work. Your need to be seen triumphing over all you survey, is bordering on the pathological. I think you need some sort of help, but quite frankly having been on the receiving end of yet another one of your bouts of obnoxious offensiveness, I couldn’t… Read more »
Well I’m really starting to regret now that I mentioned my ethnicity lol. And obviously I know what you were saying Tobeornottobe2. Of course I only mentioned it because of the topic and that the phrase was never offensive to *me* but yes it doesn’t mean it couldn’t be offensive to others and no you don’t have to just be black to be offended by it clearly. I just never took it as some personal slight. Bunch of white people in the 60s probably would be shocked she’s bringing home a black guy to dinner and it would be hot topic of conversation. I think the title is VERY appropriate lol. And why I was never REMOTELY bothered by that line in the movie. Starfleet WAS racist against the Klingons at the time and vice versa. Obviously the line was used for a laugh but the implication was just as strong for them as a white family having dinner with a black person in the 60s and/or vice versa. That was a big deal at the time. I never understood why people were so bothered by the crew reaction. They been mortal enemies for a century. They gotten into countless conflicts with them. They DON’T trust them. They DID think the Klingons were savages. And it was pretty obvious thats how the Klingons felt about Starfleet. Now Nick Meyer probably laid it on a bit thick but again the message of the film was about prejudice and learning to over… Read more »
I’ll say one more thing about this and I’ll drop it but this discussion just got me thinking about Fuller theme of Discovery and the “Understand each other” line which got some people’s panties in a bunch for some strange reason. But here it is RIGHT here. Everyone taking part in this conversation are good people, even if we disagree from time to time. No one is trying to offend anyone, everyone understands someone feeling slighted over words due to their race, sexuality, religion, etc is wrong and has said so. But yet here we all are, ALL decent people at the end of the day getting into an argument over a phrase that was from a movie from 50 years ago said again in another movie in a very different situation from 25 years ago because it evokes feelings of racial bigotry we are STILL trying to overcome…and yet here we are trying to understand each other. Everyone is just trying to say their point and defending others in their identity in doing so. Thats what Star Trek is about and why I love it. Fullers line is what Star Trek is, always has been about. This very conversation is proof of that. And its funny it all comes full circle since it started over the fact its about the Klingons again which as I said could very well have the exact same themes TUC had about about prejudice and mistrust but overcoming it in Discovery. So I just… Read more »

Well said, Tiger. Totally agree.

I find Dis to be one of the community leaders around here, in my opinion. His point is relevant.

Maybe start with this: “You see, in our century we learned not to fear words.” :P

Paul,

Re: You see, in our century we learned not to fear words

And yet in two other episodes, we see Kirk purposely call Spock a “half-breed” with the specific intent to elicit a shocked response. In fact, in one of those episodes, Spock didn’t just get shocked but nearly thrashed Kirk within an inch of his life. I’d say Kirk, at least, learned to fear words.

@Disinvited: Yes, Kirk did it on purpose because he knew it was Spock’s childhood trauma and he wanted to provoke him.

Can possibly anybody have any childhood trauma connected to the phrase “Guess who’s coming to dinner”? And even if they did, shouldn’t they already be mature enough to understand that in this case, it is used as a throwback to ST6, not to the late Jim Crow era? Just like Uhura was mature enough to understand Lincoln wasn’t insulting her, but merely stating a fact.

sixtiesplastictrektableware

Being the one that triggered this discussion, I must remark how wonderful it is the site let my comment get this far. Not every site would– takes some stones, so good on ya!

Maybe it’s a grumpy old man thing makes me see this stuff, dunno.

And much respect to the Trekomment community here– seriously loves you guyses. I don’t have to agree with you all the time, but you choose what side you’re on, not who’s on your side.

Last long wind: find this great article ‘The Politics of Star Trek’. Interesting read.

Excelsior!

So what will these Klingons look like? TOS Klingons, smooth foreheads? ENT Klingons, ridges? ENT changed the look of the Romulans based on TNG Romulans.. but ENT also changed the Klingons to look like the TOS Klingons right?? it’s a little confusing!

Why prequels suck. ;)

My guess they will probably just stick to the ridge Klingons, its what the overwhelming majority that people are use to seeing. And yes the ridges were used in both Enterprise AND in STID which is closes to Disc time period. I just don’t see that changing because in both prequels they were used. Its what the Klingons are now famous for and been using since 1979.

Or they might just use both since Enterprise made it clear there were both at the time. That would be interesting.

No reason to go smooth. Just creates a scenario of having to explain it. You can do that pretty easily but why bother. The public at large expects ridges.

Generally I’d say no Enterprise references but the JJ film used Enterprise references, so who knows.

Maybe they could be more of a mixed bunch. From smooth-heads like general Chang (imagine him with hair, you will see what I mean), to ridge-heads like Mark Lenard’s Klingon captain in STTMP, to turtle-heads like Worf and Martok.

There’s no reason why Klingons shouldn’t have more varied foreheads – maybe based on their ancestry, the region they come from, stuff like that.

Paul,

Re: more of a mixed bunch

For some reason, you’ve caused my brain’s internal ipod to start playing Merv Griffin singing “I’ve Got a Lovely Bunch of Coconuts”.

Interesting. I just hope they depict them as the cold blooded, ruthless conquerors we saw in the original series and steer clear of the “Romulanized” honor-ridden, grunting Klingons of the spin-offs. The whole role-reversal between the Klingons and the Romulans, created in TNG, always annoyed me.

I’d suspect the Klingons we get will be the ones that want peace.

You’ll probably get some of that but most of the people from this show frankly are from the spin offs and probably how they view the Klingons in general. It doesn’t mean they will but in their view thats probably what they seen the Klingons as since thats what they are now. Even in STID while they only had a minor role it was clear they came off as both ruthless warriors but still believed in the honor system listening to Uhura’s words. I don’t think thats going away because its been instilled in them for literally decades now.

Will Star Trek ever go back to being a real thoughtful science fiction show? I want to see exploration, mystery, and high concept sci-fi themes. I don’t need to see another show about how people get along and negotiate peace. I want the thoughtfulness, exploration, and mystique of the 1st season of TOS. I guess I’m asking too much.

@TUP re: Did you watch Beyond? I watched it over Thanksgiving, but have been too busy to talk about it here. The more that I think about it, the more occurs to me to say about it… BEYOND was about what I expected. I found myself in agreement with most of the criticisms that I’d read in critic reviews. The only criticism that I didn’t agree with was the one about the shooting style being overly frenetic such that it distracted from the action. I didn’t have any problem of that sort. Neither did I find the movie to be a “groaner” nor a “stinker.” It wasn’t that bad. I’d say that, of the three Bad Robot Trek movies, BEYOND is the least offensive to my Trek sensibilities and also to my sensibilities as an audience member in general. Now, BEYOND isn’t a “brilliant” movie by reasonable measure. But, neither is it a terrible movie. BEYOND is a mediocre movie, which I personally find to be a bit more watchable than ST09 and STID. And I understand why people said that BEYOND plays better in the second viewing. I watched it twice and found it better the second time, because the attempts at meaning are very brief and peppered into the dialogue, so you catch them the second time around, being more familiar with the story. Whereas ST09 and STID were somewhat the opposite—much, much better in the theater, and quickly declined upon repeat viewings at home. I was happy… Read more »
The character moments — Spock & McCoy. The moments between Spock & McCoy did not live up to the hype. Firstly, Spock cries again. Alt Spock is now three for three—crying in every BR Trek movie—and, so, I think that we can officially say that he’s not really a Vulcan character for dramatic purposes. Alt Spock has the image and likeness of a Vulcan and the emotional expressiveness of, not just a human, but of a particularly uninhibited, moody human on a bad day. And that’s pretty disappointing. Jung and Pegg had a chance to redeem Alt Spock in BEYOND—to give the character something akin to the unique dramatic purpose of Nimoy’s Spock—and they showed absolutely no interest in doing so. As such, the relationship between Spock and McCoy is largely bereft of the the logic vs. passion, point/counterpoint relation that made the original versions of those characters so compelling in TOS. The other main problem with the Spock/McCoy moments is that they attempt to resolve an issue that never developed into all that much of issue on-screen between those two characters in any of the three BR Trek movies. It’s not as though there was a history of Alt Spock and Alt McCoy having knock-down, drag-outs in ST09, STID or even up until their resolution in BEYOND. Alt Spock feels characteristically emotional, and decides to let Alt McCoy know that he thinks highly of him. Great, but so what? It doesn’t mean much without having established a significant, palpable,… Read more »

Kirk & Bones. Pegg (seems like it was probably Pegg) did a good thing here, in having Bones vocalize Kirk’s rationale for joining Star Fleet in ST09—they redeemed Kirk’s hitherto meaningless decision in ST09’s bar scene. It’s an extremely short moment in BEYOND, lasting about 30 seconds, which could/should have been developed into an emotional through-line for the entire movie. The overarching theme of BEYOND could have started with Kirk’s lament at the beginning. But, of course, it didn’t. That moment between Kirk & Bones at the beginning is, for the most part, a self-contained piece. There’s a weak attempt at the end of the movie to tie Kirk’s existential angst into the whole story, but it’s way too little and way too late. As an individual scene, however, the Kirk/Bones scene at the beginning is nice. The other downside of it, though, is that it’s basically a rip-off of the Kirk’s angst about getting old on his birthday scene at the beginning of TWOK. It’s hard to understand why Pegg & Jung felt the need to lift so overtly from TWOK, but there you have it. I guess they were short of ideas, so they went back to the same well that Trek movie writers have been going to for decades now. Nice little scene, but it could have been so much more.

Weak villain. Yup. I agree with this oft-repeated criticism as well. Krall got used to the life of a warrior, and to warfare as a way of life, while he was in the MAKO’s, and so he thinks that the Federation has gotten soft and weak in peace time. That’s actually Krall’s stated motivation in the movie, and it has absolutely nothing to do with his great tagline: “This is where the frontier pushes back.” In fact, Krall’s motivation is at odds with that tagline. The tagline implies the problem to be the Federation as overly ambitious, overly curious, overly expansionist and hegemonic—none of which suggests that the Federation has become soft and weak, but more the opposite, that the Federation has gotten too confident, too brash, too big for its britches, and needs to be knocked down a peg and put in its place. So, in Krall’s motivation, BEYOND tries to base itself on two rather disparate themes, neither of which ultimately amounts to much in the end. By the end action scene, both ideas have merged into the cooperation is better than every-man-for-himself, as a way of life theme, which seems to be what the writers intended as the main theme of the story. It’s not a bad idea for a central theme, but, unfortunately—and yet again—the writers simply didn’t do much to develop the story out of that theme, to begin with. Kirk’s problem, as expressed at the beginning of the movie—being bored with life in Star… Read more »

Kirk’s non-arc—three for three. Kirk, once again, doesn’t have much of an arc in this movie. He starts off bored of his job, we get a day in the life montage about it, and then we go right into the action. BEYOND was widely criticized for having a thin plot, and that criticism is totally valid.

BEYOND’s thin plot didn’t have to be a bad thing. If more were going on between the characters—between Spock & McCoy, between Kirk and himself, between Krall and Kirk—then, the movie’s thin plot would have allowed a lot of space for development of those themes. As it is, I didn’t have a huge problem with BEYOND’s plot being thin. It’s more that the reason for the whole story happening plays as a plot convenience. So, back to Kirk… He starts off bored and wanting to leave the Enterprise for a cushy, Vice Admiral position, and he ends up wanting to stay on the Enterprise, for no particular reason. Nothing remarkable happens in the story to change Kirk’s mind. He just has a change of heart at the end (to set up a possible sequel), as he looks up into the sky in a rather anti-climactic finale.

Conclusions. I can understand why some people think that BEYOND is the best, most Trek-like of the three BR movies. And I can also understand why some people, and apparently general audiences, found BEYOND to be the worst of the three. BEYOND is less dramatic than its two predecessors. ST09 was centered around the big idea of a portal between the familiar Prime Universe/Timeline and the new, exciting, other-world of the Alt Universe/Timeline. STID was centered around two dramatically interesting (in premise) villains: Admiral Marcus and Khan. And there was even some interesting drama between those two villains. ST09 and STID involved heroes dying—George Kirk and Christopher Pike, respectively. The deaths of those heroes is cheap and not earned by either movie, but as self-contained scenes, both (the George Kirk death scene, and the Pike death scene) are undeniably dramatic and moving. There aren’t really any dramatically powerful scenes like that in BEYOND. Unless you were very moved by Alt Spock gazing at a photograph of the deceased Spock Prime, and later of the entire Prime Universe Enterprise-A crew from TUC. I found those to be nice moments for the fans, in that they used Alt Spock as a lens for the fans to grieve. But, it was just a few seconds of Alt Spock looking at a photo. People at this site made such a huge deal out of it, that I was expecting a much more involved tribute to Leonard Nimoy in the movie. I mean, it was… Read more »

EXCELLENT review Cyg. Very thoughtful and insightful and fair.

Ill have to watch it again, both because you’ve indicated its better upon second viewing, and to watch it with your thoughts in mind.

You’ve summed up my feelings more eloquently than I. I dont believe Beyond was bad. It was probably the best of the three over-all but sort of meh. Had it been the first (aside from not making sense of the new universe and telling us who anyone was), I’d suspect fans would be cautiously optimistic.

Unfortunately, after the mess that was STID and the huge miscalculation of that film, they needed a blockbuster or at least something really good and interesting. “Not terrible” wasnt good enough.

I think STID turned off a lot of new and casual fans. To get them back, Beyond needed very strong word of mouth and it just didnt get it.

I think Beyond can be summed up as “missed opportunities”.

As you detailed, even the good things werent good enough. Kirk/Bones, I didnt like as much as you but you’ve made me see how important it was to actually explain Kirk’s decision to join Starfleet, finally. And Spock/Bones was, again, more of a forced thing because it was expected. Spock crying. Spock laughing. Ugh. Ridiculous.

TUP

Cheers!

Cygnus X-1,

Excellent as always.

Re: Kirk bored out of his skull

Actually this was one of those threads that were left almost literally dangling in the film where I fully expected that road to have been explored in, nay, fully consume, the final act: Two Starfleet captains bored out of their skulls – compare and contrast how each got that way and how each deal with it.

Disinvited

Thanks!

Two Starfleet captains bored out of their skulls – compare and contrast how each got that way and how each deal with it.

Yeah, that could have made for a good central theme of the movie, if it went in an interesting direction.

Very interesting review Cyg, LLAP

Has anyone been working on decoding this?

Oh well that’s just lovely.
You can tell it’s been written by a Kirk fanatic.
There goes any inclination to actually pay to watch this reboot trash. That’s what it is, a reboot.
Mr Robot S3 and Stranger Things will probably be out around the same time, so might or might not be available to me, but this is in no way going to enter a 2nd season or entice anyone other than hardcore die-hard 40 yearold Kirk fanatics into any form of paid viewership.

In other news, I’ve got a cool idea for star trek. Lets recreate the original series in a different ship, about 10 years before it, throw in some Klingons and roll the dice!

Pathetic, insulting, uninteresting and worthy of a boycott. I don’t want this crap tainting what has come before it. The more money the studios throw at it, the worse it becomes, and I won’t be any part of it.

Im not sure you know what a reboot is.

They just don’t get it.
More budget = less story. This really is silly money. I assume it’s going to be 15% story, 15% acting, and 70% VFX.
Does a new ship and 10 years earlier make this not a reboot? Oh, I mean a prequel? Come on, this is a slow motion car crash with no general appeal without destroying what has come before. The reboot movies have tried it, epic cerebral fail.

This whole outfit is a US online network cashing in on rights it holds.

You’ll come to regret the day this had a Star Trek brand slapped on it.

Let’s face it, a bunch of greedy bastards have cashed in on the Trek brand without any understanding of the people they think are lined up to watch it.

@Carboy – hopefully Disney heeds your warning before they do a Prequel Star Wars story and lose a ton of money. Oh wait….

wpDiscuz
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