Reminder: ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Episode 8 ‘Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum’ Debuts Tonight

| November 5, 2017 | By: TrekMovie.com Staff 169 comments so far

Star Trek: Discovery debuts its eighth episode tonight. Written by Kirsten Beyer, this episode looks to be closest in spirit to many classic Trek episodes about exploration of the unknown, and has a focus on Saru.

Preview: “Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum”

Star Trek: Discovery – Season 1, Episode 8

The USS Discovery is tasked with a high priority mission to the planet Pahvo and learns the science behind the Klingons’ cloaking technology.

The episode will be available in the US on CBS All Access at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 PT). In Canada it airs on the Space Channel at 8:00 pm ET (5:00 pm PT).  And it will be available on Netflix outside the USA and Canada on Monday at 8 am BST.

CBS episode preview

Photos

Followed by ‘After Trek’ episode 7

The seventh episode of the Discovery after-show After Trek streams live on CBS All Access tonight at 9:30 pm ET. With Jayne Brook, Doug Jones, and Ted Sullivan. If you tweet questions to @startrekcbs with the tag #AfterTrek they may be answered during the show.

After Trek also airs on Space in Canada at midnight ET and will be available on Netflix on Monday.

What say you?

TrekMovie will be posting a full review of “Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum” later. But you don’t have to wait to offer your views in the comments below.

 

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I seriously to take a nap before the show.

Speaking of napping, can we just promote Dr. Culber to Chief Medical Officer already because no matter who gets sick Discovery’s CMO is always missing in action. I mean who is the CMO anyway? Is it the guy who helped out with the space whale? I don’t know. But I’d like to start petition to promote Dr. Culber to CMO now. #TeamCulber

It’s killing me that I’m overseas in a no-man’s-land tonight–neither in the U.S. where I can watch on CBS All Access or in a country where I can watch on Netflix. (I was in the U.K. for last week’s Mudd time trippy episode; it was heaven to not have to deal with CBSAA!) At least I will have something to look forward to when I come home next week, but I’ll have to avoid TrekMovie.com (and TrekCore) (and anywhere else that talks about DSC) until then!

Netflix is in 190 countries, so you must be someplace pretty special.

I was actually in China and Philippines last week. In China, they don’t have Netflix so I knew I couldn’t watch it there if I wanted to. I was in Manila a few days later and I knew they had Netflix but I didn’t think I would be able to access it being American and where I signed up for it. Imagine my surprise when I clicked it on my phone and not only was I on the site, but Discovery was the first thing it advertised to me lol. I thought I was going to have to wait to get home too, which was another week, instead, I only had to wait a day when it showed up there. I even got to download the episode which we can’t do on All Access. And when I got back to America, the episodes I downloaded still played on my phone for a day but then I could no longer access them.

Man I see why people love Netflix so much. It was nice knowing I can still watch it in any country and their library was about as good as it was in America. And yes, they had all the Trek shows so all a win-win.

here we go

SPOILER reminds of that futurama episode where the alien cloud refuses to let them leave

After ‘Cause and Effect’… ‘This Side of Paradise’?

cop out way to handle Admiral Cornwall and nonsense in feuding with Klingons and hippy planet trying to bring peace is very star trek, not my fav episode so far but lets see what is next

The Admiral might not be dead.

yes she might just be injured or on coma

maybe she will forget to remove Lorca from command

Organians

I thought the same. This could very well have been a DC Fontana or a Gene Coon episode.

Yup. My thoughts at first, as well.

I was really looking forward to this one, and regret to say it was quite the disappointment. Some good moments, but the excellent trailer and early raves about what turned out to be a scattered, unfocused script and story really oversold it. “This Side of Paradise” it definitely wasn’t. Damn.

I agree, maybe my expectations was too high.

Couldn’t agree more. Also disappointed they killed yet another character we barely had the opportunity to know. I also agree with @Pete that the Pahvins reminded me of the Organians and not necessarily in a good way. The Klignons parts continue to drag on for me. I couldn’t care less at times for who is double crossing whom as far as they are concerned. Oh well here’s hoping the mid-season finale next week is better.

I’m not convinced she’s dead. It was an extremely disjointed episode that I think I am going to have to watch again.

Well she was head-butted, electrocuted and put with dead Klignons but I don’t know if it was “official.”

I enjoyed it, but I also agree that it was all over the place. It was hamstringed by having to get all the pieces in place for the mid-season finale. I have no idea how the Pahvians think they’ll bring the two sides into harmony. I’m also beginning to wonder if we’ve been intentionally led to question Tyler’s humanity, as a distraction from what’s actually going on.

I agree. This is the first episode I didn’t really care for. Overall though, I’m really enjoying this new series. I’m sure next week will be better (fingers crossed).

Sighhhh unfortunately agree. I really want DSC to be exceptional, but so far it’s middling between pretty good and blah.

Yes have to somewhat agree. On one hand, it FINALLY felt like a true Star Trek episode to me: Being on a foreign planet, interacting with a strange species, arguing the merits of the mission and Federation values, but the other hand it felt a little flat. I sort of like the fact Saru wasn’t mind control, he really did just want to stay there but then I don’t believe he would just so easily betray the mission and his officers like that after the guy spent so much time getting on Burnham’s case over what she did. I wouldn’t say its out of character so much as it didn’t feel convincing enough. And if he was so determined, he could resign his commission and stay there as long as he want, done. So yes in that regard it felt a bit ham fisted.

The Klingon subplot feels a little murky as well. I don’t really care about them. They have all these power struggles going on but its presented so boring and flat. I miss the old Klingon personalities of people like Gowron. These guys spend a lot of time reminding who is in charge but in a very…slow…and…stilted…voice…you…just…don’t…care.

That said though it looks like they are setting up for the fall finale and maybe some real twists will happen here. But honestly I’m enjoying but I don’t really care about the actual war of it. When DS9 went to war with the Klingons it was so much more involving but I guess because a lot more was just going on with the DOminion and everything else. Here its OK, but it doesn’t have the same excitement to it as DS9 did. But yes, its still early.

Man. We’re never going to agree, are we? Hahaha! I really liked this one. Felt like a good old-fashioned classic episode. Saru got something to do. They actually feel like explorers again and it had some suitably wacky sci-fi concepts.

This was not my favorite either. There were some things I liked, like the space battle. But the director kinda mangled the whole Cornwell thing. Is she dead or what? I mean come on. Actually most of my issues with this episode are probably with the direction and maybe some of the story. I kinda wish Suru was under the influence of the Aliens because he effectively abandoned the mission in pursuit of his own wishes and then he attacked two officers under his command. That deserves a demotion at least. I mean there has to have consequences for those choices and out of his own mouth he said they were his choices.

Just FTR there was only one officer under his command, Burnham effectively being stripped of rank.

Quite true. Officer and crew member.

I agree Andrew, I too think its the direction of this episode that is throwing some people off because so much of it felt a bit vague. And I read on reddit they did edit down the episode a lot so there was probably some stuff that we didn’t see that clear up some things.

And yes I too and shocked how no one is commenting on what Saru did. That was what I mentioned in my OP how his actions seem pretty out of character and hypocritical considering how upset he was about what Burnham did on their former ship. He even called her ‘dangerous’. And this guy not only went against orders, they were orders that was trying to find a tactical advantage in the war effort. They weren’t just hunting down resources. And did it while he was first officer as well. At the very least he should’ve been penalized in some way or the incident cited in his record. Instead nothing happened.

Thank you Tiger2, I feel the same way as you. I also heard it was edited down also. Here the thing, this is a streaming show. Why not take advantage of that and let it run long if it benefits the story. If it ran 30mins longer and was a great episode would any of us had cared. Survey says no!

Andrew SD,

Well the networks airing it Canada and certain other isolated from Netflix global markets might have a care, but you are right, why should CBS’ streaming service care if it runs long?

Great point, unless they are looking ahead to a potential syndication market. But even then they could edit later. Heck, why not just make an extra episode?

Please link that Reddit discussion

heart gonna be broken if Ash is revealed to be a Klingon, I like the Ash character and romance between Ash and Burnham

I had a thought today that Voq was posing as Lorca and not Tyler. I don’t think it’s likely, and I’d have to re-watch some of the older to stuff to see if it’s even possible, but it was a neat thought to mull over for a few moments.

I thought this episode was okay, but a bit messy in it’s storytelling. I think it could have used a few minutes to iron some things out. The planet looked beautiful though.

That would be a neat rope a dope.

Maybe Lorca was a Klingon spy from the get go. The real Lorca died with the USS Borhan?

If Voq is Lorca , when did the switch take place?
And what would the point be, to steal Discovery?
Because he could have done that at ANY time.
it doesn’t make sense.

Lorca could have been replaced with a doppelganger on the prison ship.

yes, this is possible too

I do too! I am personally hoping that they find a way to keep him human. He has great chemistry with Burnham and the POW angle is worth exploring IMO. Maybe Manchurian candidate him? I think at this point they are going somewhere with him vis a vis the Klignons. Although his body scans in the episode showed he was human. Then again I have no clue how that augment virus things plays out in universe.

Based on tonight’s episode, I think Ash is Klingon, but he and L’Rell are playing (conciously or otherwise) a more interesting long-term game than hinted at previously. I don’t think Ash is going anywhere.

Good stuff.

Ash being Voq would make NO sense though. It would feel too ridiculous at this point. Ash is as human as you can get. When did Voq suddenly get all these mannerisms down, know Earth culture inside out and speak fluent English? It would feel like a silly twist because you have to believe that Klingon we saw who never, AFAIK, ever spent a single day around a human can suddenly just seamlessly become one overnight with ease. How many Klingons can dance to Al Green? Its like someone from China suddenly pretending to be a white American overnight, perfect English and all.

I really hope this theory is not true because one I like Tyler and two, it would feel silly on its head. Especially a guy who has blended in so much his entire anatomy is now somehow human as well. It would make no logical sense. He might as well just be a changeling.

That’s partially been my argument as well. That’s why I think if they are going anywhere it’s the manchurian canidateangle. However I too am hoping he is and remains fully human.

Yeah I can COMPLETELY buy the Manchurian candidate angle. That they implanted something in him to go against Discovery when the time comes. That makes more sense knowing what we seen of him.

Hell, I’m willing to go as far they just cloned the real Ash or something before I believe Voq is impersonating this guy to such a ridiculous level.

Ash is human and Saru would have detected if he was Klingon by now. The question is where is Voq? Unless Klingons can create the perfect spy that can fool medical sensors and Saru and access Human memories of real Ash. I still think Ash is Voq and will play into the end of season 1.

Yeah I GUESS that is possible, but having memories of another person doesn’t just make you able to act like them all of a sudden. But thats the thing, where did it even imply Voq was now Ethan Hunt of the Klingon spy world? It was never suggested he was anything but a guy who hid in the shadows and now wanted to follow T’kumva’s plan, not a cunning super spy. This is a guy stuck on a lifeless ship for 6 months and the minute he was rescued lost his position to Kol. This isn’t exactly a guy who seems to think quickly on his feet, put it that way.

This theory might be proven true, but if so it would feel totally ridiculous at this point to lazy writing of the highest order. A Klingon who knows Earth culture like he’s lived there forever, at ease with them to the point that he’s now dating Burnham two weeks after meeting her and can pass any and every medical inspection, which btw, where is all that technology coming from to be able to do that? But I ask that every week when discussing this show lol.

Has anyone else raised the possibility that Ash was human all along, but instead posing as a Klingon as a spy? (Not saying I believe that–though Voq was an “orphan,” right?–but it might solve some problems).

This episode definitely implied that Ash has a huge secret, and it’s somehow connected to L’orell.

And, unless I missed it, we still don’t know what happened to Voq or who the actor was who played him. They are huge holes at the moment.

I have a hard time subscribing to the Ash is Voq theory because from the little we saw of him, Voq seemed like a bit of a simpleton, an outcast who seemed to follow T’Kumva because he was the first person to accept him and was effortlessly outsmarted by Kol. Voq didn’t strike me as a particularly bright Klingon; to now somehow turn him into this perfect replica of a human, who saves the crew from the very same Klingons multiple times and has such a profound understanding of what it is to be human and such specific memories would be a really big twist to swallow. I can see a Manchurian candidate type of twist where Ash has been reprogrammed and is subconsciously awaiting the proper code word to turn him, but revealing Ash to be Klingon would be incredibly disappointing.

Maybe we’re looking at this from the wrong angle. Maybe when L’Rell said Voq was going to have to “give up everything” she meant something other than what we assumed from the (apparent) casting.

Imagine this: the Klingons have some technology, perhaps adapted from the mind shredder, which can remove a sentient being’s mind from their body and implant it into another’s as a sort of time bomb. L’Rell takes human prisoner Ash Tyler and implants Voq’s mind into him, but hidden deep in Tyler’s subconscious. (Voq’s body may or may not survive this procedure; if it does, he’s probably a vegetable.) She allows Tyler to escape because Voq’s mind is hidden inside him, a mental Trojan horse. The plan is that after Tyler has been absorbed back into the bosom of Starfleet, at some point Voq will take control of him, and he will be placed in a way to do maximum damage.

This would explain why she wanted Adm. Cornwell to take her to Discovery: perhaps she needs to do something to “activate” Voq’s mind inside Tyler. Or perhaps things have not gone according to their elaborate plan.

If this is the scenario, then the (presumed) fact that the same actor played Voq and Tyler is mostly a red herring: we may not ever see Voq in Klingon form again, but we will see the human Tyler acting just like Voq. It’s not that Voq was surgically altered to resemble Tyler, but that his mind is inside Tyler, waiting…

Yes this is the most logical theory. To beam a soul into the body, the ultimate spy to do damage to the enemy and to attain ones goals.

Would be amazing if Voq is the one acting as Ash though would make people want to go back and look for things.

Ok. Your description of Voq as an outcast and simpleton now has me totally convinced that Ash was undercover . . . Until the next episode!

Saru looks like Voldemort in that first picture.

The thing I dont like about this Klingon war is that we all know its lasts until The Undiscovered Country. Prequels have never worked for me. They should have made this in the era after the 6th film, fill in the events leading up to TNG.

The Klingon war lasts until TUC? That doesn’t sound right. There are some ongoing hostilities, but not war. The neutral zone must get formed at some point.

I always thought they were enemies and at war. I think Picard mentioned a poor first contact with the Klingons led to decades of war.

Picard said that, but Enterprise showed otherwise. Regardless, ‘decades of war’ after Enterprise’s “Broken Bow” could still have ended 70 years before Discovery, depending on how many decades there were.

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in: Memory Alpha
Human-Klingon history

Table of Contents
Human-Klingon history is riddled with conflicts between the United Earth/United Federation of Planets and Klingon Empire dating back to the mid-22nd century, following first contact during the Broken Bow Incident and prior to the creation of the Federation. These conflicts were generally considered as “annoyances” by the Empire. (ENT: “Broken Bow”, “Judgment”) With the Battle of the Binary Stars in 2256, open warfare broke out between the two star nations for the first time—and sadly, not the last. (DIS: “The Vulcan Hello”)

This would seem to conflict with “The Trouble with Tribbles”, in which Spock said that the current conflict with the Klingons began with initial contact. However, he could have been referring to the first contact between the Federation and the Klingons, as the United Earth Starfleet would seem to pose little threat to the Empire. Similarly, in “First Contact”, Jean-Luc Picard explains that “There is no starship mission more dangerous than that of first contact… centuries ago, disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war…”

Again the problem with prequels. What both Spock and Picard said were probably true at the time. But Enterprise and now Discovery has basically retcon those events. We all know there was never a full out war in the 23rd century until Discovery. It was more of a cold war vibe.

Errand of Mercy made it pretty clear there was never any recent war between the two and why the Organians were so concerned if they finally did go to war. It was basically an analogy of the U.S. vs U.S.S.R at the time. But maybe in a more distant past there was a bigger conflict that lead up to the two being enemies at the time.

No, war was declared in “Errand of Mercy”, which means they weren’t at war previously in TOS. Then the Organian Peace Treaty ended the war before it really got started. Undiscovered Country was an end to the Federation/Klingon Cold War.

We can agree they are currently at war with the Klingons, yes?

Yes, but that doesn’t mean it is going to last 30 years.

“The thing I dont like about this Klingon war is that we all know its lasts until The Undiscovered Country. Prequels have never worked for me. They should have made this in the era after the 6th film, fill in the events leading up to TNG.”

Wow you spoke my mind man. I agree it would’ve worked much better after TUC. We don’t know so much about that period. We all know with this war it has to end soon which kind of kills the climax. We already know no one will win or lose, it basically has to be a draw just knowing the events of TOS. It will end but both sides will continue to have their power, the Klingons will simply not try to take over the Federation and the cold war will continue on. Again we know this thanks to TOS, so its anti-climatic. That and the fact its been pretty boring so far.

Yes Tiger, exactly. Agree with you 100%.

agreed 🖖

It was a cold war, not an actual war. The U.S. and USSR never actually declared war on each other, but the threat was constant.

And yes, Picard had that line, but I always assumed that was at some point before TOS (and, I suppose, after Enterprise — or else it was just a line).

Long time Star Trek fan. Not a Discovery fan. Too much action and drama. Too much over-acting – especially Martin-Green. No fun. Burnham character is completely unlikeable. No characters to identify with. I find I force my self to watch it hoping it will improve but these people take themselves too seriously.

Everyone has different tastes. I enjoyed the majority of the episodes so far, this one for me was a let down. Maybe the next episode will make this one better with some closure.

I dunno if SMG is an over-actor, more like an under-actor…her delivery is stale and I agree, she isn’t the most likeable character.

So I’ll admit I was watching this while doing stuff on my computer. Spoiler ahead. At the end… Scar-lady told red-face that the admiral _____ed. Did she, actually? They didn’t show it, did they?

SPOILER Admiral Cornwall appears dead, knocked out then electructed as they were discovered leaving.

Yeah, but didn’t she say escape? I guess she just meant that as the fake explanation as to why she was in the corridor…

The Klingon scenes are killing me.

No. They drag her body into a room full of half eaten Klingons to imply she’s next. But the actress’s awkward appearance on After Trek might imply she’s still hanging around. Maybe.

Is it possible that Voq is not Lt. Tyler, but instead Admiral Cornwell?

So Cornwell had a relationship with Lorca once upon a time, then went undercover with the Klingons, then seemlessly went back to being a Starfleet admiral, and then staged a meeting with them (plotting the whole time, of course, that there would be a Vulcan uprising in the meantime to give her the opening)?

Well, I guess I see the possibility, but what painfully convoluted writing. Let’s hope not.

Okay, cool. I saw all that. There was just a line about the Admiral having escaped that I realize now must have meant when she’d been discovered in the hallway. I’d originally thought I’d missed something.

This episode started with a huge contradiction. That is there was a landing party that was trying to do a typical first contact situation but the contact was for the purpose for engaging them in the war. I feel like the theme of this episode is ‘when you ask for contradictory things don’t be surprised if unexpected things happen’. The landing party keeps saying we want peace but we are at war. The characters say it so many times as if its a conflict that they are trying to desperately handle. I like the fact that this episode tried to explore this contradiction that is at the heart of Starfleet now. That is they are exploring new technologies but only for the purpose of war. They are doing typical first contact but only to save themselves.

Saru’s seduction by the Pahvians only became tragic towards the end and I have always wondered why more Starfleet officers have not ‘gone native’ . That is you have people being exposed to vastly alien civilizations with philosophies that are vastly older and quite different from the Federation,why don’t more of these explorers become seduced the way Saru was.

The Klingon arc was somewhat forgettable but the death of the Admiral means that Captain Lorca is safe for now.

The setup for next week is really what interests me. At first this had an Organian quality but clearly the Pavians are not as sophisticated (early in the episode they mentioned that they were confined to planet Pahvo). This will take the contradiction at the beginning and turn it into a dilemma. First contact with the Pahvians may mean that their civilization may well end. The next episode is what I want to see.

In the beginning, the Discovery team thought the transmissions were a natural phenomenon — they didn’t know that there were sentient lifeforms involved (so no expectation of first contact).

This!

Bunham said she wasn’t detecting any life forms when the Pahvians appeared.

I know this ep is continued into the next, but it really felt incomplete. I’m just not sure whether the Pahvians (which look too much like the jump drive spores btw) are being all Organian here. Can they protect themselves? How did they teleport Tyler to the crystal radio set and if they can do that, can’t they mess with starships? REALLY tired of one-note Klingon scenes. I get it; they’re bad and power-crazed. I assume Admiral Cornwell is going to get back to Discovery. Not sure if she’ll live long enough to relieve Lorca, who has been acting sane lately or at least giving that appearance because it’s a war setting. One more question: are we going to get a gross-out of the week now, a la GOT? Bifurcated Klingons — ew! I didn’t hate this ep, but it just feels insubstantial somehow.

Didnt Admiral Cornwall die? She was left in the ships morgue no?

Maybe, but that would make her appearance in this episode a complete waste of time as far as the story is concerned. We already knew L’Rell hates Kol. Odds are better that Cornwell is just unconscious. We’ll see.

Yes, maybe she is alive and manages to escape next episode and she is gonna try to remove Lorca and Lorca kills her.

But why drag her to the room to be eaten? She wasn’t hiding her. Thats clearly where Klingons ate other dead Klingons. Or am I wrong on that? But if, why were they so deteriorated? I assume Kol and the others have been eating them.

I don’t think that’s the eating room. The Klingons only ate people when they ran out of blood. As soon as Kol beamed over all that food to the ship in the fourth episode, the Klingons were pigging out on standard food

Yeah I guess you’re right. I just didn’t understand why they were so ripped apart like that but I guess he just killed them with a bat’leth or something. And that would be pretty gory to see half eaten Klingons lol.

The dead pile was in the sarcophagus room. There was a big sarcophagus in one shot. I’m guessing, L’Rell meant to put Cornwell (with a respirator) into it, to be placed on the exterior of the ship… where Discovery can find her.

For better or worse, the Klingons are one of the big end games here. I doubt their appearances are ever “one-note.”

The Cornwell thing was such a let down. I really wanted to know what her fate is and I still feel like it’s so unclear.

When Stamets called Tilly Captain was he referring to the future Tilly? Or just tired and confused? The Admiral Cornwall thing seems like a wasted opportunity. They should have escaped, killing her off seems like lazy writing. The Klingons worked hard to get a high ranking pow and she is dead just like that. I think everyone was looking to see a big reveal and nothing really happened in this episode. I read somewhere someone cried watching this, feels incomplete as some mentioned already.

Calling it now: in the Mirror Universe, Tilly is captain of the Discovery.

Instead of shy Tilly we get a sex crazed confident ruthless Tilly out for blood and more power!

And with a goatee!!!

upstairs right i kid

Did anyone else get super confused when Kol said “you let her escape?”

I was like….wait? Did she not die when Lyrell beat the tar out of her….

I rewatched the scene and I guess he was implying the corridor portion, but it really through me off at first.

I thought that it was kind of a waste of Admiral Cornwall, but then again out side of the main crew most of Star Trek Characters are rarely in this many episodes. Maybe trying to be more modern where characters die, but I could really have seen more of her maybe trying to get Lorca out of the chair and the crew vouch for him…

Given how the camera panned on her as Lyrell walked out of the Morgue, I doubt shes dead

Also, I’ve been worried about Lorca for awhile given his condition, but I found myself really really happy when he was willing to use the Discovery to defend that other federation ship from damage.

Another random thought. When Stamets calls Tilly Captain….is she captain on the Mirror Universe ship maybe?

I think Stamets saw the future or alternate time line where she gets to become Captain.

Yeah, that confused me too — especially since I started watching it late (just last 10 minutes) and then half-watched the rest on PVR. (I’ve since fully watched it). At first I was like “she got away!”

Yes I was confused too. I thought the woman Klingon told him she escaped as a ruse but really died. But then that made no sense since she clearly didn’t escape. So it much mean when he caught them at the corridor. And yes I really hated they killed off Cornwall so early. She was just getting interesting as a character. And if she did die, then Lorca looks even worse because she only became captive because he didn’t rescue her. Maybe more is coming but I doubt it.

As far as Stamets and Lilly, they have been so of implying Stamets see things interdenominational since he was connected to the spore drive so yes this could be a hint of the mirror universe. That would be pretty interesting if so.

Also confusing – why did she not immediately run when she discovered that her crew on her escape vessel was dead? Why does she make a pretense of serving Kol, when she clearly knows that he is on to her and will likely kill her?

And yet another weak episode.

And yet another opinion that is not a fact.

It is my opinion. What’s your point? Are you say that your opinion is fact. HA HA HA!!! Almost as weak at the episode.

Quantify why you thought it was a weak episode intelligently. Otherwise you look like a troll.

L’Rell wants to defect now, doesnt make sense to me after all the trouble of getting Voq to give everything up to win the war for the Klingons. Even though she hates Kol, you would think she wants to stay the course and be loyal to the Klingon empire, no?

Unless her story of wanting to defect was an outright lie, to try and trick Cornwall into “escaping” with her for a more nefarious reason. L’Rell did stress that Cornwall get her back to the Discovery, rather insistent about it, and not just to Federation Space.

If Ash truly is Voq, that would make perfect sense. This would allow L’Rell access to Ash’s location, perhaps to gather information or activate some kind of “programming” that might be on Ash.

At least, that’s how I read it. Remember, L’Rell comes from a house that specializes in deception and lies, so convincingly pulling off such a story should be easy for her.

Yes, this would make sense. She wants to access Ash for intel and she misses him.

This seemed obvious to me – her wanting to defect was a way to get onto discovery, hook up with Tyler/Voq and introduce some Klingon partners of her that we have not seen.

I watched this from my iphone as I am on the road. I think I will rewatch next week when both episodes can be seen together.

The Klingon stuff this episode was particularly interesting in my opinion

Now that you mention it the Klingon story line was definitely more compelling. Which says a lot considering this the first exploration episode where they get off the ship. (I’m just really disappointed with Suru and the choices he made while mind you being in command of this mission.)

L’Rell’s request to defect is an obvious lie; she specifically requests asylum aboard Discovery. Clearly she’s playing a long game here to learn the secrets behind Discovery’s technology and use that to depose Kol and unite the houses with Voq to follow T’Kumva’s philosophy. My guess would be that she plans to board Discovery, wake up the reprogrammed Ash and steal the ship.

I agree. Hearing someone suggest it makes no sense is hilarious. Like goodness, pay attention. This is serialized story telling. Wait til its over to complain about it making sense or not.

It was a valid point on my first viewing, upon discussion, if true it does make sense. So you find it hilarious that someone suggests it doesn’t make sense to them? My point was still valid at the time I made it, doesn’t make sense without the extrapolated explanation assuming that is her intention. Actually it’s a free country I hope and anyone can complain about it making sense or not to them. I don’t really care if it is serialized story telling, if something doesn’t make sense to me I’ll call it out.

TUP is a troll who enjoys attacking others who do not agree with it.

TUP is one of the most rational members of the community. Knock it off.

Honestly this episode annoyed me over the Klingon cloak. Like I know they violated canon a long time ago on this one, but they could’ve done this whole war thing without Klingon cloaks. Just like they could’ve done Romulans on ENT without it. Like seriously, it’s lazy.

You just have to throw out all of the pre-TOS technology canon at this point. Discovery now have holodecks, walking holograms and site to site transportation. Let’s just be honest, it doesn’t feel anymore credible just because you get one or two things right in canon technology wise if you just ignore all the other things you are getting wrong anyway. My guess is they just told themselves everyone has adopted some of the technology earlier than originally known and left it at that.

Why I hate prequels.

They’ve led us to believe that the cloaking technology was something unique to the Sarcophagus ship, this is why the other houses are swearing allegiance to Kol in order to obtain it. Perhaps the secret of the technology dies with Kol in the war, or the Federation detects a way to penetrate this particular type of cloak so efficiently that it renders it useless and the Klingons abandon the technology. Remember, you can’t fire when cloaked or fly at warp… so if there’s zero tactical advantage to using something that actually causes inconveniences, you would stop using it.

These holodecks are describes as a much more primitive version, like a super VR type settings that will later evolve into the much more sophisticated holodecks we see in the future. It’s also been pointed out, many times, that there was a holodeck shown on the Enterprise in TAS, so the idea that they existed in this time frame is NOT unheard of in prior iterations of Trek.

Site to site and intra-ship beaming were always possible, as well, just seldom used due to the danger they presented. (For example, see episodes like “A Piece of the Action”, where Kirk had “bosses” beamed directly from their offices to Oxmyx’s office). In wartime, you sometimes risk things you would not in times of peace.

So… while some of the things you mention may stretch canon a little, I’ve seen nothing so far that either hasn’t been portrayed previously (like holodecks in TAS) or could be explained away later in the series.

As far as I remember, the orignal canon established that the cloaking tech was acquired by the Klingons from the Romulans in a tech exchange some time after TOS. And because of that treaty, they couldn’t hand it to the Federation once they were “allies” (in DS9 the Romulans were the ones that installed it in the Defiant, with the condition of it was never to be used in the Alpha, and I don’t recall if neither in the Beta quadrants).
By that, I think the tech should be available to all the Klingons, not to only one house, as if one house trade tech with the Romulans that could be considered as treason for the Emprire.

Perhaps that is because we are using the term “cloaking” technology in a very generic sense… however, we must assume that the actual technology used to cloak ships changes over time. We can assume that the cloaking technology used by the Romulans in TNG was radically different from the tech in TOS. After all, the Federation managed to steal a Romulan cloaking device in the Enterprise incident… if the Romulans never improved upon that technology, it would be hard to believe that ships using that same technology 100 years later would be able to fool far more sophisticated Federation sensors.

So I imagine that Kor is managing to scavenge older cloaking technology from the Sarcophagus ship… and that the Federation will find a way to nullify this technology. After it becomes useless (after all, running a cloaking device that prevents you from operating shields and firing weapons, but gives you no tactical advantage because your enemy found a way to see through it), the Klingons may abandon the technology entirely. Then, at some point in the future, the Klingons will exchange technology with the Romulans, who will give them a new form of cloaking technology that does work.

What canon? I dont believe it was cemented in canon that the Klingons never had cloaks.

I guess not this early maybe. But yeah I don’t really care they got it now since we know they will get it relatively soon anyway. A decade or two earlier is not a huge deal end of the day.

It just irks me [in an admittedly fanboyish way] because Spock and crew’s reaction in Balance of Terror makes it clear this cloaking tech is totally WTF for them. All of Jamfo’s explanations above are perfectly plausible, but wouldn’t explain away why the Enterprise was so caught off guard when Romulans were cloaking for what was supposed to be the first time ever. It renders the entire episode kinda ridiculous, because it’s like gee, Starfleet’s now fought an entire war against an adversary with cloaking tech, but ten years later it’s unheard of? It’s like, if you’re going to violate canon, violate some boring throwaway episode, not one of the pillars of TOS. That’s what bugs me about DSC, is that it takes well-established elements of great episodes from previous series and undermines them with its fanservice in episodes that don’t have the gravitas of the originals.

So far, it’s 30 minutes late premiering on Netflix…. 4:40pm Japan Standard Time and for a provider that’s been consistently premiering eps at 4pm, wtf is going on this week?

We just had the fall time change here in the US, rolling our clocks back on hour. I don’t know if Japan observes daylight savings time or not. If they do not (and your time did not change), perhaps the start time was pushed back an hour to coincide with the US time change?

I rewatched Beyond yesterday and I will say watching that movie again and frat boy Kirk do his thing it is kind of nice to see Lorca being a real adult Captain again. The way he takes command of that bridge in this episode and everyone on pins and needles trying to get down his orders is truly something to watch.

Kirk in the KT films just feels a bit too immature and like your buddy to believe he really Captains one of the most important ships in the fleet like Picard, Sisko and the original Kirk does it. Lorca seems like someone who spent time as a military guy the way he commands people.

Beyond is a poor representation of Star Trek. It starts with a “buuuah, I’m too bored to go to no man has gone before” Kirk (it’s supposed to be an exploration ship…), because he misses the “peew-peew” so much.

That always bugged me too. One of the things that makes Kirk “Kirk” is his love of the Enterprise. Kelvin-Kirk doesn’t seem to have any of that. In fact, what was he hoping to gain by asking for promotion? Alleviate boredom by being promoted to a desk job? That whole thing seemed like an attempt at character development but I didn’t understand it nor did I think this was representative of who Kirk is at his core. Alternate timeline or not.

LOL well I wouldn’t have put it that way but I guess you’re right. But then I will give it some credit in the sense this Kirk never had the call of duty like his other counterpart. As he said he joined Starfleet on a dare so his perspective is a bit different versus Prime Kirk who had a calling for it all his life.

Very much an up and down episode. The idea behind Pahvo was interesting – part Pandora, part Organians, as were the developments with L’Rell and Cornwell. Unfortunately the whole thing was horribly disjointed and felt rushed, especially with regard to Cornwell. You usually don’t see corpses of characters being dragged around like that so I think she’s still alive but I could also easily be wrong.

Once again, I was also taken aback by Saru’s cowardly antics and yet another annoying bout of “Burnham, you always take everything away from me” whining. Maybe it was the poor editing, but as I saw it his actions in trying to sabotage the mission were wholly his own and not the result of manipulation on the part of the Pahvans; I think he even pretty much said so in sickbay at the end. In that light, his dereliction of duty would probably be grounds for a court martial. Surely Lorca wouldn’t be too pleased with his actions.

I continue to marvel at how a show designed to be streamed can be so poorly edited and constrained by an apparently set in stone running time. A few more seconds tacked on to several scenes would have gone a long way towards fleshing the episode out and making the whole thing flow better. In the past, shows like The Walking Dead seemed to have no issue with extending the runtime by a few minutes if it served the story; I don’t see why Discovery couldn’t do that as well. The cuts, fadeouts and run time have all the hallmarks to me of a commercial network TV show; so maybe CBS is planning to syndicate these eventually. If true, shame on them for compromising the narrative integrity in favor of hoping for more sales down the road.

I’ll be curious to see how this is all resolved, especially the solution to the Klingon cloaking technology conumdrum.

I’m sorry to say that I agree with you on the uneven quality of this episode (especially after last week) but I think you may be mistaken about the running-time issue. I seem to recall an interview with one of the Execs before the run started, who said that running times would vary considerably from show to show and that nothing was set in stone. Indeed this one clocks in at 7 minutes shorter than the previous two, so it’s not clear they were pressed for time and had to cut out expositary material. Frankly, I think this is just not a very good episode.

But then I think the tension between episodic and serialised presentation is the main issue with this version of Trek (in my opinion). The two story-telling styles are completely different. Episodic storytelling has to be very taught and provide good characterisation and a satisfying payoff every week. Serialised storytelling is not obliged to do any of that on a weekly basis – which does not mean it has to be poorer – but it CAN result in flabby storytelling, thin characterisation and individual shows that leave you wondering if anything has moved…

There have been some amazing serialised shows in recent years – my feeling is that STD isn’t one of them. I hope other people disagree – I hope other people are enjoying it.

I think Discovery is trying to straddle the line somewhat between episodic and serialized; it’s a little reminiscent of Season 3 of Enterprise in that regard. I agree that in trying to do both, it is probably just hurting itself.

The fact that this episode came in at 7 minutes below the running time of the last few suggests to me that either the show needs better editors or they were just feeling the crunch of having to meet a deadline and this was the best they could do with the time they had. Either way, I would not be opposed to them going back and smoothing out some of these episodes to make them flow a little better.

I do find the show entertaining for the most part; I think a lot of the faults I see are more related to issues with post-production.

“it’s a little reminiscent of Season 3 of Enterprise in that regard.”

I been saying this very same thing forever here and reddit for months now. I always thought they would do it exactly this way once I heard the war story would just be one season and Fuller said that every episode would basically have a standalone story as well, which has been true. And this is the smart way to go because it doesn’t feel like you have to watch the entire season like you were watching 24 or LOST a lot of people were afraid of. You can go back and watch individual episodes even if they aren’t as episodic as past shows.

“I think Discovery is trying to straddle the line somewhat between episodic and serialized; it’s a little reminiscent of Season 3 of Enterprise in that regard. I agree that in trying to do both, it is probably just hurting itself.”

Agree 100 % – trying to do both and not really succeeding at either.

I loved 99% of the episode. Finally a strange new world to explore and they did so abundantly. Reminded me of my favourite movie Avatar both visually and philosophy-wise. This Pahvo experience is exactly the sort of Trek I signed on for 25 years ago.

Unfortunately, they had to include that torn and gutted Klingon corpse for no other reason than shock value. It’s so pointless! Just because they can…
It doesn’t completely destroy this great episode for me but once again it’s a moment so superfluous and annoying. This shot would have been most welcome on a any horror series or movie, but why on Star Trek? I will never get it.

Apart from that, this episode, along with last week’s, truly represented what I have been waiting for 12 years…

If you look at the grizzly imagery throughout the first 8 episodes, it certainly wasn’t a lot we got. The torn crew of the Glenn, Landry’s injuries, the Klingon smashing that Starfleet officer’s head with a mean stomp, the blink-and-you’ll-miss-it throat cutting in episode 6 and today’s gutted Klingon corpse… compared to GOT, TWD, The Strain or Into the Badlands, that’s almost nothing…

But that makes it even worse… if this WAS an adult-only hard-on gorefest, at least it would be consistent. For example, if they ever do that Khan series on Ceti Alpha V, they could take it much further, but it would be fitting the overall tone and wouldn’t be confused with a normal Trek show!

But DISCO doesn’t feel like an adult show at all. 99,5% of it has been traditional Star Trek (with some questionable character choices). It’s one of the best Trek shows ever. But why stain it with those very limited instances of adult imagery? It’ll only gain the show some higher age certificates for no reason at all but because THEY CAN.

TWD is adult entertainment. The setting, the constant gore and splatter… yes, it’s (unfortunately) watched by kids too these days but it’s rated 18+ in most places and stricter parents can still prohibit teir kids from watching.

But DISCO? It’s 99% family-friendly… why not make it 100%??? This hurts a lot… This will be given a 16+ rating in my country for no reason other than some totally unnecessary additions of gore the show could have easily done without. They just feel out of place to me. Sorry, that’s how I feel…

I don’t get your focus on the gore part. It’s created for mass appeal and a little reality that they are dealing with some really scary s*** is good to know.

“I don’t get your focus on the gore part. It’s created for mass appeal”

And that’s exactly my issue. Gore used to be part of some niche, marginalized adult-oriented subgenres back in the day. And this is where it IMHO belongs: horror, hard action etc…stuff made for adults, secretely watched by some daring kids.

But today, it has become a common feature of “mass appeal”, it has become mainstream. The walls between family entertainment and adult entertainment are breaking down and no one seems to care…

You know, they used to cut gore from TV and movies to make them family-friendly. Nowadays they INSERT it to attract teenage audiences. That’s absurd… at least from my German POV, a country that still suffers from serious inherent censorship issues.
As another poster has pointed out. I’ve been culturally conditioned into being squeemish to bloody violence. That brainwashing I’ve had to fight against ever since my own youth. I can now tolerate explicit violence in niche genres, but as part of the mainstream, it’s still harsh to accept.
Because after all, gore’s rise to “mass appeal” somewhat proves my father and our censorship authorities right: “Look at what happens if you start accepting violence in niche movies… it spreads like a disease, infatuates the mainstream!” I hate these thoughts. But like a Kelpian driven by fear, I am driven by these second thoughts, no matter how much I’d like to overcome them…

Look, you need to understand that grew up in a country that once cut movies like The Terminator for an 18+ video release, with the uncut version put on an index. It’s been rehabilitated along with hundreds of other movies, and released with a 16+ rating.
But the uncut Romero zombie movies Dawn OTD and Day OTD are still banned for crimes against human dignity, along with 70+ further movies.
And even some adult horror fans, who have been fighting that censorship for decades, are obsessed with youth protection over here.
Recently, The Evil Dead has been unbanned and released with a 16+ rating, and there are people on German boards who are still opposed to these more liberal decisions. Personally I’m glad they are getting these movies off the index and banning list one by one now, but when I see 7-year-old kids on Instagram with bloody zombie make-ups, I cannot help but feel bad about it and wonder where this will take us…

With no working child protection in place and with the walls between family and adult entertainment breaking down, now even affecting Star Trek, I am caught in a loop between advocating forther liberation and renouncing those developments. This is why I need a clear separation between adult entertainment and family-friendly stuff. This is why a in-the-middle-of-the-road handling like on DSC or Stranger Things confuses the hell out of me.

Smike, you seriously need to get over yourself. If it bothers you that much, stop watching, my god. So much whining over practically nothing.

He’s illustrating to you that the concept of gore and child protection is deeply ingrained in his culture. Asking him to get over himself kind of misses the point. Wherever he is from it’s part of the system of government and the culture.

Good post

The “I hate gore” schtick is old. Time to move on.

The “Time to movie on” oneliner is pretty old as well.

Nope, I’m not going to move on. I’m going to complain about each and every one of those scenes for as long as I deem it necessary. I cannot change this, but I won’t condone it either. It is my duty as a Trekkie to speak my mind about these developments.

And no, I don’t hate gore. Not one bit. But I hate it on Star Trek. I’ve said this time and again. Despite my parental upbringing and the insane censorship laws of my country, I like horror movies and I’m trying to adapt to modern TV-MA shows OUTSIDE major pre-established family franchises.

I’ve watched a season of The Strain recently, and one of Into the Badlands. And I’m more than fine with it. The only series I hate is TWD, because it’s pointless drivel. But the more of these shows I watch and like, the more I know I don’t want this on Trek (or Star Wars, or the Wizarding World, or Middle-earth)! Those subgenres and franchises should be clearly separated.
That’s my stand on this, and it’ll always be that way. I won’t stop watching. I won’t stop posting and it is my prerogative to give my opinion now and then. I’m gonna cut down on the numbers of posts. Sure. But I shall not be silenced!

I agree Smike is beating a dead horse here (sorry for the violent analogy Smike), but he presents his opinion in a well thought-out and cogent manner. His point of view is valid. Even though I disagree entirely with it.

I saw what you did there lol

Smike, you’ve said as well as inferred several times that you hate gore. But now you don’t.

You’ve also said you hated Discovery
, but now you don’t.

Waiting to read Trekmovie’s review to comment properly, but was not impressed at all by this one. Avatar meets Trek, boring Klingon storyline, uneven space battle scene. Saru’s character just took a nosedive for me, too.

Uneven episode in my book. Maybe trying a bit too hard. I really enjoyed the Klingon stuff though, it was nice to get some advancement there. Should put to bed the whining about the make up as they spoke and acted just fine under it.

Liked the Stamets stuff. If he popping in and out of eras? Did he see Lorca when he asked Tilly what the Captain was doing there or did he momentarily see Captain Tilly?

TUP, I think the makeup is kind of a ‘it is what it is,’ kind of thing at this point – this is how Klingons look now, so be it. I would like to see the subtitles go away, though – last night when the admiral was talking to L’Rell and no subtitles were used, it flowed much better, imo. Yes, Stamets seems to be drifting further and further from reality with each jump, interesting.

I’ve never had an issue watching the Klingon scenes with the subtitles. I guess years of watching subbed anime trained me well. xD

I wouldn’t call it “uneven”. I think it was by far the best written episode in the old “trekkian” mode. Not you, but those that normally criticize this show should come out and proclaim this one as “real trek” or whatever they call it

The Klingons are horribly done. Obviously the Discovery-swilling sycophants don’t think so. LOL.

Stop trolling.

Just because I enjoy Discovery doesn’t make me a sycophant.

I have no idea who you are and I was not referring to you. Please stop trolling me.

Didn’t hate it, didn’t love it. STD is just bluh at this point. Klingon and uniforms are garbage. The characters are nothing special, but I doin’t find them as lame as I did I first.

I want Discovery to be an excellent show and I want it to succeed, and it does a lot of things right, but there are some problems IMO.
One is the premise of everyone thinking Michael Burnham was the cause of the war and her being blamed for the loss of the first captain and ship. Obviously not true as her ten-second “mutiny” was not the cause of any of that. I know it is to set up a redemption arc, but it would be a much better redemption if she had done something worthy of all that blame. If she had fired first out of hatred for the Klingons it would have been better. They should give her some actual flaw to redeem. This is a bad one since it is the main character of the show.
Also, how could Saru ever be on the command track? Science officer yes, but Saru is portrayed as too emotionally fragile and fearful to be an effective commander. Part of that is holding an illogical grudge against Burnham. Burnham didn’t actually do anything to him.

@NC – I was harping on that from the beginning, but they seemed to have backed away from it a bit, the Michael causing the war thing I mean

Regarding Saru, we’ve seen him be a capable Commander. On Schenzhou he was science officer, I believe. Something happened whereby he was assigned or chosen to be first officer on the Discovery. We dont know what.

He strikes me as someone who is very intelligent, very efficient, very much a good Starfleet officer. So he might have earned it. We’re under the assumption that Starfleet has been mostly war free prior to the Klingon issue. So nothing to make us think Saru faced conflict.

Its also possible that Lorca chose him specifically, either for his efficiencies or maybe because he felt he could control him by virtue of Saru’s unique character. We’ve seen Lorca seems like someone who is careful about his inner circle. He’d see Saru as someone damaged by his experiences at Binary Stars and use that to his advantage. A good administrator but someone who would not challenge Lorca’s authority.

Good point that Lorca chose Saru for a reason. Maybe he wanted an officer who would not challenge him like you said. You would think he would want someone who could “fight the ship” though.

About Burnham and her Mutiny. Everything really links back to her disobeying orders and landing on the torch and combating the Klingon. Next she did everything to stand up against them directly arguing with the Captain.

Now about Saru. Star Fleet is a peaceful organization and his species would/should feel safe with them and have a desire to get command positions on Science ships to explore. His Species is built to analyze and flee if they fear death, so their reactions to perceived threats are more pronounced. Great for keeping a ship safe from harm but could impact them in ways we are seeing now in war.

I thought the mutiny started with nerve pinching the captain. Didn’t she kill the Klingon prior to that?

YEah the mutiny spurred from putting down Gergiou and then commanding to fire on the Klingons. What happened earlier might have help spur the war but she wasn’t trying to disobey orders and only defended herself.

I believe Lorca would put Saru in that position for both his experience working on the Schenzhou and the fact that he can sense Death/Danger. As far as Burnham, she mutinied and was involved in starting the war. She obviously isn’t the only reason. Her redemption is due to two things, her mutiny as well as her battle with her vulcan upbringing.

My first post did not go through!
Just wanted to say, this is not
Star Trek!
It falls short on so many levels! 50 years of wonder,hope,scientific Discovery,and hope for improving mankind all left behind!
I am so disappointed!

It’s a more realistic darker side. Not everything is perfect in this work. I think they are also telling the story on how TOS got so hopeful. This is mirroring DS9 in a lot of ways and I’m enjoying it.

You’re wrong. Its Star Trek. Says so right in the opening credits.

It’s Star Trek through and through. You must be thinking of The Orville because it’s, well it’s called Orville

They said this about TNG when it first came out. This show is totally Star Trek. I don’t know how anyone could say that its not after the mud episode which was awesome.

Star Trek is whatever CBS tells you it is.