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Into Darkness Open Discussion

Star Trek Into Darkness (and its sequel) Chat

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1. MJ (The Original) - July 9, 2013

Let me open this new discussion area up with the following?

I am going to go out on limb here and make one of my famous predictions:

“This cast will definitely do four movies”
MJ, July 9, 2013
(note: exception would be if they kill off one or two of the cast)

People can ignore my new big prediction at their own peril. Because we all know the usual end-game of my famous predictions. :-)

2. Ciaran - July 9, 2013

If they killed off one or two of the (main) cast, would we really go see it? I mean, really?

3. William Bradley - July 9, 2013

Phil, I like that idea.

It would be kind of like, well, “Agents of SHIELD.”

If only there were an Agent Coulsen type character already established in new Trek to lead the new team. (Hopefully, one who does not have to be miraculously brought back to life. Though with Khan’s blood around …)

Hmm, what about that little hobbit guy that hangs around with Scotty? He looks like a pretty savvy guy … What is his name again?

BTW, now that I think of it, WTF is up with that whole deal, anyway? Who/what is that guy supposed to be? What does he have to do with Starfleet? What does he even do, anyway?? Has he ever had any dialogue?

What is the dealio, as they would say on another show?

>1595. Phil – July 9, 2013
@1591. I’m not going hard to the mat on this one way or another, options can be written in or renegotiated when all parties are agreeable. Besides, it’s still on the studio to do the third installment first…

RE: Your observation about the 50th anniversary – assuming the studio does plan something to capitalize on the exposure, what I’d expect the third movie to do is position another ship, ensemble, or organization within Starfleet that could be spun off to TV, preferably a cable channel where there is a bit more latitude in the storytelling, and keep it in the same universe. What the studio will probably do is another ‘monstrous evil is menacing our heroes’ story, with bigger ships and battles then last time….

I’ve mentioned before I don’t have a problem with action and intrigue stories, but lets keep some continuity with the known product. It really was not necessary to turn Enterprise into a Transformer, so moving forward, lets just ignore these little glitches and tell a good story…..

4. Ahmed - July 9, 2013

TOS & TNG on the top list of best sci-fi shows ever:

==================================
Trek beats out BSG, Twilight Zone for ‘best sci-fi show ever’

The folks at TV Guide are working up a list of the 60 greatest sci-fi shows in history — and their rankings might surprise you.

The full list of all 60 shows will be unveiled in an upcoming issue, though Ain’t It Cool News has gone ahead and spilled the Top 10. On the top of the heap? Star Trek/Star Trek: The Next Generation, which rode its cutting-edge sci-fi morality tales into history.

Check out the full Top 10 below:

1. Star Trek/Star Trek: The Next Generation
2. The Twilight Zone (1959-1964)
3. Battlestar Galactica (2004-2009)
4. The X-Files
5. Lost
6. Doctor Who
7. Buffy The Vampire Slayer
8. The Walking Dead
9. The Prisoner
10. Game of Thrones

http://www.blastr.com/2013-7-9/trek-beats-out-bsg-twilight-zone-best-sci-fi-show-ever

==================================

Totally agree with the top 5 on the list, but DS9 should be there somewhere before The Walking Dead.

5. William Bradley - July 9, 2013

Lots of people went to see Spock die in the movie that saved Star Trek …

>2. Ciaran – July 9, 2013
If they killed off one or two of the (main) cast, would we really go see it? I mean, really?

6. Phil - July 9, 2013

@2. My well worded response didn’t survive the cut..

I’m not going to the mat on dating Pines comment about more movies – they have three picture deals, and it could very well be there were options for more that might have been exercised.

I’ll give you a partial on the prediction – some of this cast will do four, assuming the studio makes them. I’m still of the opinion that about the only characters with locks in this universe are Kirk and Spock, any of the other characters can end up off screen and wouldn’t be missed….

7. William Bradley - July 9, 2013

Phil, I’d already seen STID when I saw that Chris Pines interview. I think Paramount used the leverage they had over him giving him Jack Ryan to lock him in at a more affordable rate once his three-picture deal was done.

The studio doesn’t have quite the same leverage I’m aware of with the others. But then, the others don’t play Captain Kirk.

I’m sure Zoe Saldana is going to get a lot more expensive after the next one, because she will be coming off Guardians of the Galaxy and gearing up for Avatar 2. Plus she is the female lead, and the only person of color on the international posters.

6. Phil – July 9, 2013

8. Red Dead Ryan - July 9, 2013

I don’t think TNG should be in the top ten. TOS should be alone at number one, or tied with DS9.

TNG does belong on the list, probably in the teens, but definitely not before “The Walking Dead”, “Fringe”, or “Game Of Thrones”.

9. dmduncan - July 9, 2013

Yay. New thread. 6th one!

10. crazydaystrom - July 9, 2013

#2. Ciaran -
“If they killed off one or two of the (main) cast, would we really go see it? I mean, really?”

Oh sure I would go see it, really. And I think most of us would. The issue for me is and will be the story ideas and the quality of the writing. Such a talented cast would be amazing to see in a Trek project that BALANCED the action-adventure with character developement.

And what the hell? Let’s throw some interesting, original and meaty SCIENCE FICTION on the scale as well. I don’t expect that from the guys running the show at present. Nor do I anticipate bringing an actual writer of science fiction into the fold as a collaborator. But this Trekkie can dream.

11. Phil - July 9, 2013

@7. Yep, and that’s an advantage when the focus of your story is a crew on a ship – if Zoe Saldana isn’t available, in the next movie Communications Officer Kara Thrace gets introduced because Lt. Uhura is on assignment interpreting a peace conference somewhere…. really, if Chekov disappeared, would we really miss him? He was relegated to a few scenes in engineering this time, anyway.

12. William Bradley - July 9, 2013

TNG over The X-Files?

I think that is ridiculous.

Also, TOS is better than TNG. So is DS9. A lot better.

I was worshipfully introduced to Twilight Zone but have always found it overrated and too frequently trite.

>1. Star Trek/Star Trek: The Next Generation
2. The Twilight Zone (1959-1964)
3. Battlestar Galactica (2004-2009)
4. The X-Files
5. Lost
6. Doctor Who
7. Buffy The Vampire Slayer
8. The Walking Dead
9. The Prisoner
10. Game of Thrones

http://www.blastr.com/2013-7-9/trek-beats-out-bsg-twilight-zone-best-sci-fi-show-ever

13. Other Guy - July 9, 2013

Please. Killing off a main Trek character is really just saying you are out of truly out of ideas.

Just STOP! Take a job writing Hawaii Five-O or something.

14. William Bradley - July 9, 2013

Well, I think Uhura and Zoe are in the very core of the show now.

If you look at the marketing around the world, she is right in the middle of it. It’s not Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, it’s Kirk, Uhura, and Spock.

Take her out of the picture and it’s lily white, and almost all guys, except for Carol Marcus who is barely established as a character and is the whitest of lilies

Plus ZS is on the verge of being the queen of scifi.

Much easier to lose somebody else. Or a couple somebody else’s. It’s a big cast.

>11. Phil – July 9, 2013
@7. Yep, and that’s an advantage when the focus of your story is a crew on a ship – if Zoe Saldana isn’t available, in the next movie Communications Officer Kara Thrace gets introduced because Lt. Uhura is on assignment interpreting a peace conference somewhere…. really, if Chekov disappeared, would we really miss him? He was relegated to a few scenes in engineering this time, anyway.

15. Disinvited - July 9, 2013

#4. Ahmed – July 9, 2013

Does that two different Trek series at number one mean they oddly combined the two or that each separately tied for number one?

16. Ahmed - July 9, 2013

@ 15. Disinvited – July 9, 2013

“#4. Ahmed – July 9, 2013

Does that two different Trek series at number one mean they oddly combined the two or that each separately tied for number one?”

From the article it seem they were tied for number one.

TNG is a great show, it deserved to be on the top ten.

17. Craiger - July 9, 2013

MJ, if they do four movies then we wont see a new Trek TV series for a long time if it 3 or 4 years between each movies. That’s if Paramount and CBS want to wait and do a new Trek TV series until the movie series finishes. I think they said they don’t want to oversaturate Trek like they did in the 90′s.

18. William Bradley - July 9, 2013

BTW, we were starting to discuss what the 50th anniversary of Star Trek should be like …

Though I suppose it may be more enticing a prospect to argue over where Lost should be on a list of top TV shows or whether or not Chris Pine was in a time warp when he said he’s signed for two more Star Trek movies (and then said he shouldn’t have said that).

19. Phil - July 9, 2013

@14. Not sure I’d agree that Uhura is core to this group, her role in STID really wasn’t much beyond being the emotional girlfriend this time around. Besides, ZS is probably the most likely candidate to have scheduling issues with Avatar sequels and Marvel on her plate now….but yeah, any of the secondary cast could be rotated out just fine…

20. Disinvited - July 9, 2013

This is interesting:

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Alan-Moore-League-Extraordinary-Gentlemen-Fox-1067624.aspx

21. William Bradley - July 9, 2013

Odd as it may seem, Benedict Cumberbatch had a much bigger role in the marketing of the movie than he did in the movie itself.

I mention that because Zoe is central to the marketing of new Star Trek.

All the global marketing had the New Troika of Trek — Kirk, Uhura, Spock.

No McCoy. No Scottie, either, much less the others.

Problems with the script are problems with the script.

It serves the purposes of Cameron, Marvel, and Paramount for Zoe to remain Uhura, and to have her role live up to the marketing of her role.

>19. Phil – July 9, 2013
@14. Not sure I’d agree that Uhura is core to this group, her role in STID really wasn’t much beyond being the emotional girlfriend this time around. Besides, ZS is probably the most likely candidate to have scheduling issues with Avatar sequels and Marvel on her plate now….but yeah, any of the secondary cast could be rotated out just fine…

22. Disinvited - July 9, 2013

#1. MJ (The Original) – July 9, 2013

I think I’ll go out on a limb and predict that Kirk will not die in any permanent way in ST 13.

23. Curious Cadet - July 9, 2013

@11. Phil,
“really, if Chekov disappeared, would we really miss him?”

I’ve been saying this for some time now. His purpose in TOS is more or less moot, fallen with the Berlin Wall. Ideally he would be replaced by an Islamic of Persian descent, assuming the character would serve the same purpose.

It’s too bad that Kirk and Scotty didn’t find themselves in Engineering, with Chekov the only crewman who could access the chamber for whatever reason, and thus Kirk finding himself in the position of ordering a crewman to his death (that seems like something Kirk must learn to do, and something that would make for a dramatic moment). Kirk and Spock could have still bonded over Chekov’s death, and then they both could have gone after Khan. Perhaps the next film. H

Honestly, if they are having that much trouble integrating 7 principal characters into a two hour movie, and now they are adding Carol Marcus … Somebody’s got to go. They already got rid of chapel, and we haven’t even heard Rand’s name mentioned. What is it they say … Last to the party …

24. Curious Cadet - July 9, 2013

^^^^
That is to say, a Muslim of Persian descent.

25. Phil - July 9, 2013

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Tell you what, lets keep this potential replacement of Middle Eastern descent, and leave it at that. Sometimes a little ambiguity is a good thing…

26. Keachick - rose pinenut - July 9, 2013

“Patroclus – July 9, 2013
@ 1574. Keachick – rose pinenut
Do I remember correctly – weren’t you one who questioned Orci many many months ago about the possibility of a gay character in trek?”

I think I was among a number of posters coming to this site mentioning the possibility of having a gay character in Star Trek. There was quite a discussion a couple of years back, if memory serves.

I had an idea that one of small humanoid races to have joined the UFP were hermaphrodites (genuine) – ie each individual being able to transform themselves into a male/female. These people underwent, what was for them, natural biological cycle of becoming male for a time, and then female, then male again and so on. In both phases, sexual reproduction was possible with the opposite sex of their race. If the female became pregnant, then she would remain female until her child had been weaned from her breast and could survive independently of its need for her sustaining milk. The child’s younger sibling could come from the body of his/her father, who would have changed into a female and reproduced as a normal humanoid female.

One of these beings had joined Starfleet and was aboard the Enterprise, along with his/her human husband. Kirk meets this crew member and becomes a little confused when he/she becomes a her/him…;)

Perhaps a story could center around the needs of (one of) these beings in that their longterm health depends on a particular rare trace mineral element, found only on their homeworld, being in their diet and there is a shortage of such a mineral…home world and/or surrounding planetary that it is part of suffer a major natural catastrophe and/or Klingons have invaded and claimed that section of space and planet part of their Empire…Dr McCoy’s medical skills and xeno-nutritional knowledge are tested…maybe there is another planetary system with similar geological makeup which was briefly detected and transmitted back by long distant probes, but it is almost impossible to get to, due to “oceanic” anomalies etc.

Two problems – Possible Klingon invasion of their world or other and the hermaphrodite crew member(s)’ desperate health situation. Enterprise, being first and foremost, a ship built for peaceful exploration, seeks out this, as yet, not fully mapped region of space, along with the planet that may help its crew member(s). Starfleet tries to help the hermaphrodite world, while Enterprise seeks alternative nutritional source…

Menosians are happy to do what they can to help…

27. Marja - July 9, 2013

Poor little Chekov, not much love for him here! Shame! Perhaps he could “guest” as a Genius Astrophysicist of Renown – seems Chekov’s possible career is disserved by merely being Navigator on Enterprise. Sulu could go now and command his own ship or be First Officer working his way to command.

I DON’T think the movies or TV could have “Star Trek” without McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, Spock or Kirk. And I loved Ensign Darwin! Would also love to see a Persian and/or South Asian on the Bridge.

10, Daystrom, I agree except I don’t want to see Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Uhura, or Scotty buy the farm. The rest of your post? I SO TOTALLY AGREE.

21, WB, agreed; Zoe Saldana will be crucial to ST worldwide.

28. Curious Cadet - July 9, 2013

@25. Phil,
“lets keep this potential replacement of Middle Eastern descent, and leave it at that”

True, I don’t think Star Trek has ever really explored religion, has it? Maybe in DS9, which I never really watched with any regularity. Having a Muslim practicing Islam, would be a little to on the nose, and sort of beg to show other religions in practice aboard ship as well.

I know, let’s make her a female and see what kind of trouble we can stir up. Would she wear a hijab or a burka in e 23rd century?

29. William Bradley - July 9, 2013

Right. With the inevitable mid-’60s casting running into a very different era, her Uhura has a three-fer role to play.

Plus, and with all due respect to Karl Urban, who is very talented, and the wonderful character of Bones, the posters just look a hell of a lot cooler and more contemporary with her on them.

One of the things I loved best about ST09 is how it introduced the reboot versions of the characters. Uhura’s introduction was super-cool, prancing through the bar, fencing with and fending off Kirk, a woman full of her own power but not too caught up in herself.

>27. Marja – July 9, 2013

21, WB, agreed; Zoe Saldana will be crucial to ST worldwide.

30. William Bradley - July 9, 2013

DS9, arguably the best of all the Star Trek series, was heavily imbued with spiritualism and religion.

Just not Earth-bound spiritualism.

>28. Curious Cadet – July 9, 2013
@25. Phil,
“lets keep this potential replacement of Middle Eastern descent, and leave it at that”

True, I don’t think Star Trek has ever really explored religion, has it? Maybe in DS9, which I never really watched with any regularity.

31. Hugh Hoyland - July 9, 2013

I wonder when the script for STID is going to be released?

32. Marja - July 9, 2013

29 Wm Bradley: “Plus, and with all due respect to Karl Urban, who is very talented, and the wonderful character of Bones, the posters just look a hell of a lot cooler and more contemporary with her on them.”

I think it would’ve been super if they’d got all four of them onto the posters, honoring fantastic Karl Urban, and it would’ve saved a lot of fanboy hysteria ["Ohgod Uhura's replacing Bones!"] .

I hope McCoy gets a little more to do in the next movie. Maybe side-by-side with Uhura translating as an alien being is getting medical help from McCoy. Of course that would mean having an alien being, which apparently is a turn-off to some international audiences, now apparently the key demographic, god help us.

MATT thank you 100x for updating the thread :)

33. EarthmoverMichaelJames - July 9, 2013

MJ famous predicitions- don’t you mean super obvious predictions that anyone could figure out a mile away, but what ever inflates your ego dude

34. MJ (The Original). - July 9, 2013

@34

Huh? Most people have assumed a trilogy, and some aren’t even sure their will be a next movie.

And my Khan prediction was looking pretty bad in April.

And fess up dude, what is usual name on here? Man up and address me by your usual name, or shut the hell up with anono potshots, as my bud William would say.

35. MJ (The Original). - July 9, 2013

@30. William, agreed. Next to TOS, DS9 is my favorite of the remaining series. And it is the only series where most of it was completely watchable.

36. MJ (The Original). - July 9, 2013

My Top 10 All-Time SciFi Series

1. TOS
2. DS9
3. Babylon 5
4. nuBSG
5. Space 1999
6. Prisoner
7. Stargate
8. The Twilight Zone
9. Lost
10. Firefly

FYI – I consider Game of Thrones as fantasy

37. MJ (The Original). - July 9, 2013

I would not miss Chekov much, etiher.

38. Aurore - July 10, 2013

1479. Disinvited – July 8, 2013

“…And as for IM3′s Mandarin, it surprises me how many supporters of STID watched IM3 and walked away remembering that film’s false reveal but totally missed the later true reveal where the originally created as non-white bad guy was once again rewritten to be white. Not that such recastings are of much concern to me other than the fact that it may be revealing a new unwritten Hollywood rule that is guiding the casting of such roles as opposed to the rule “The person who acted best in the screen test for the role, got it.”

_____________

The “new” unwritten rule might not be that new if I take into account, amongst other facts, a piece of information you provided me with on a thread where you discussed Miss Saldaña’s Hispanic Heritage, a few days ago:

(Posts 2255, 2284, 2285…)

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/28/into-darkness-second-week-polls/

However, what may be new is the fact that, nowadays, on rare occasions (?) writers, directors, give a reason for “changes in ethnicity/race” when they occur.

Or, at least, in the case of “IM3′s Mandarin”, Shane Black did; he stated that he was against the “traditional” (my word) portrayal of the character because it was, according, to him a “racist caricature”.*

“…it surprises me how many supporters of STID watched IM3 and walked away remembering that film’s false reveal but totally missed the later true reveal where the originally created as non-white bad guy was once again rewritten to be white.”

Online, I personally noticed that some people were discussing the “new unwritten Hollywood” rule and its… transformative effects… on a few “ethnic” characters, of late…

As a matter of fact, in one such instance, I read about what, apparently, was likely to happen to a character named “The Shredder” (?)…

* Articles available online.

39. Red Dead Ryan - July 10, 2013

I think the next Trek series needs to be done in the style of TOS and DS9. Both those shows did the best at portraying humanity in the twenty-third and twenty-fourth centuries, and technobabble was kept to a minimum.

#38.

Unfortunately, it is now considered racist by many in Hollywood to cast non-white actors as villains, even if the bad guys happen to be non-white. Apart from “Live And Let Die”, all of the villains from the James Bond movies are white, or in the case of “Die Another Day”, switched from Korean to Caucasian via DNA resequencing.

It seems that as Hollywood increases its international foothold, producers don’t want to risk any ill will or censorship by casting non-whites as villians.

40. Aurore - July 10, 2013

“It seems that as Hollywood increases its international foothold, producers don’t want to risk any ill will or censorship by casting non-whites as villians.”
________

Even if I were to share your opinion that this is the reason why such “changes” occur, I would still have trouble understanding a “change in ethnicity” for a character whose “ethnic” name would remain unchanged….

Besides, I learned of instances where “real life people”…of Asian descent were played by non-Asian actors .

You probably heard of what happened for movies such as “21″ (2008) or True Believer (1989), for instance…

41. Aurore - July 10, 2013

@ 39

I disagreed with this following statement of yours, twice:

“It seems that as Hollywood increases its international foothold, producers don’t want to risk any ill will or censorship by casting non-whites as villians.”

I briefly explained why I disagreed of course, giving two not so ancient examples of movies where some characters’race had been “changed”.
They were characters inspired by real life people.

:)

I wonder what would happen if Khan Noonien Singh were to be back in the next Star Trek…

…. If Mr. Cumberbatch, whose performance has been stellar from what I heard, were to win an Oscar for his role in the sequel, alluding to any “change in ethnicity” regarding his character would be next to impossible, I suppose.

:)

42. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#38. Aurore – July 10, 2013

If I believed the reporting in my country that tries to make it appear that the former majority is now a minority, I’d be asking “Is this just the same old Hollywood transferring its established “logic” to the new minority?”

Interesting…Curious Cadet back then provided reporting of Black here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2013/05/09/shane-black-tells-angry-iron-man-fans-lets-talk-about-it/

“Black explained the difficulties in adapting certain elements due to their origins and nature in the comics, and how hard it is to surprise audiences when so many of them will have read all the stories while the media publishes articles detailing the characters and sources of inspiration to the point of removing a lot of the surprises. He talked about the need to take characters and stories and approach them with a new perspective relevant to our modern world and modern events. Overcoming inherent problems with some characters and their backgrounds, making them fit into a story with modern relevance while turning our expectations on their heads and even surprising fans, is a pretty impressive — and admirable — set of goals. Even more significant is that it succeeded.” – Mark Hughes, “Shane Black Tells Angry Iron Man Fans ‘Let’s Talk About It’”, FORBES, May 9, 2013

Which sounds eerily to me like the same hoops that were jumped through for Khan.

43. Aurore - July 10, 2013

Correction. 38.

However, what may be new is the fact that, nowadays, on rare occasions (?) writers, directors, give a …”reason”… for “changes in ethnicity/race” when they occur.

44. iamthe1701 - July 10, 2013

FYI:
George Lucas: ‘Star Wars’ stood on the shoulders of ‘Star Trek’
July 09, 2013

> http://herocomplex.latimes.com/movies/george-lucas-star-wars-stood-on-the-shoulders-of-star-trek/

45. Other Guy - July 10, 2013

Star Trek, or what it has become recently, IS racist.

And for all those involved with the recent Khan decisions, You too are all racists.

You would think that it would be OK for a “person of color” to be evil these days.

46. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#39. Red Dead Ryan – July 10, 2013

LIVE AND LET DIE, where I fell in love with Jane Seymour. Been awhile since I’ve watched that. It’s weird is that it features a mask reveal too.

47. Aurore - July 10, 2013

“Star Trek, or what it has become recently, IS racist.
And for all those involved with the recent Khan decisions, You too are all racists.”
_________

….And, of course, that is this type of posts which are allowed on the question of the “change in ethnicity”…

Sad, from my perspective, but predictable ; I want you to know that….

For your eyes only, of course.
For, to make it onto the thread I would have to insult a few people, apparently…

:)

48. MJ (The Original). - July 10, 2013

@42

With this statement, you seem to be hung on on race yourself, dude.

A true non-racist person comes out of STID and comes out not even noticing.

All of you who are hung up on both sides of this argument need to take a hard look in the mirror.

49. Aurore - July 10, 2013

“With this statement, you seem to be hung on on race yourself, dude.”
________

Me?

Well, indeed I am.
For reasons I’ve explained many times over the past months.

“A true non-racist person comes out of STID and comes out not even noticing.”

Yes.
I’ve heard that before ; talking about white washing is racist.

“All of you who are hung up on both sides of this argument need to take a hard look in the mirror.”

Accepting that some people do not share my opinion on some topics will do as far as I am concerned.

50. Other Guy - July 10, 2013

Hey look, Zim is a white guy, Perhaps STiD will affect his trial.
I wonder if that was a question for Zim’s jury. Did you see STiD and what did you think about Khan?

51. Phil - July 10, 2013

And I’m a troll??

52. Russell Meyers - July 10, 2013

TAKE NOTE: The usual rules of decorum apply (family friendly, no flaming, trolling, being annoying, etc).

Well that didn’t even last through the first post…. :)

53. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#48. MJ (The Original). – July 10, 2013

Whew! With your statement, you’ve put me in the clear: I, as of yet, have not seen STID.

54. Dave M - July 10, 2013

Personally, I was hoping from the previews that it was Pike in the chamber… thereby saving the crew and being exposed to radiation, ending him up permanently in the chair as in TOS. – Therefore, the alternate universe “righting” itself once again…

guess we’ll never see Talos IV.

IMHO Cumberbatch could have been any kind of augment… and there was no need to do any sort of TWOK tip of the hat. If you recall in Space Seed… Kirk also essentially held Khan’s family “hostage” by refusing to revive them… what did Khan do? Took over the ship within hours.

as much as I enjoyed Cumberbatch’s performance (which WAS incredible)! – as were the rest of the cast’s performances… the movie … and it’s many plot holes and TWOk references…left me feeling cheated of a NEW adventure.

55. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#3. William Bradley – July 9, 2013

Hmmm…Keenser as an agent of the Organians? Interesting.

56. kież - July 10, 2013

@1. Famous? More like “annoying”

57. Phil - July 10, 2013

@54. Oh, you will love the next one! Leaked plot summary, A probe of undetermined origin begins destroying islands in earths South Pacific, when it’s determined that mating calls from the extinct Kangaroo Island Emu are not being responded to. Kirk and crew fly back in time to frolic with the topless Miramanee natives, while chasing the ugly birds with large nets. Hilarity ensues when the birds are captured and returned to present day earth, only to discover, to their horror, that they needed female birds, and brought back males. Earth is destroyed, and the Ferengi assume control of the shattered Federation, promptly banning clothes on all females….Kirk, and a ragtag fleet of survivors head off across the universe, in search of a long lost planet to call home…Tatoonie.

58. Buzz Cagney - July 10, 2013

#1 MJ, yes we know the end game. You bang on for months about something then, just a few short weeks before we find out, your bottle goes and you start back peddling. lol Yes, some of us did notice my friend.
You were so close to being able to claim the plaudits and, just when you were within sniffing distance, you blinked.
So what date can we expect the back peddling regarding a fourth movie?
;-))

My prediction is no 4th movie from this lot until about 15 years from now.

59. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#56. Phil – July 10, 2013

“Hilarity ensues when the birds are captured and returned to present day earth, only to discover, to their horror, that they needed female birds, and brought back males” – Phil

You do realize that those males have both y and X chromosomes? It wouldn’t be that hard to defrost Khan and have him cook up some emu females. Or would it? ;-)

60. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#54. Dave M – July 10, 2013

In the Prime story Pike saved cadets being irradiated so his somehow (perhaps already in the chamber?) getting Kirk out before Kirk deteriorated too much would have some poetry to it. But how would you get Pike on the ship while giving Kirk the opportunity to command and earn it?

61. Curious Cadet - July 10, 2013

@59. Disinvited,
“But how would you get Pike on the ship while giving Kirk the opportunity to command and earn it?”

Simple. Spock is hovering over Pike after he gets hit. He simply opens his communicator and with his first instinct contacts McCoy on the Enterprise and has him arrange to beam Pike straight to Sickbay. Pike then becomes McCoy’s patient, who is in a coma through most of the film, that is until he pulls a Kirk from Journey to Babel moment and races to Engineering as soon as the power goes down, and arrives just in time to save Kirk.

And Kirk and Soock still get to bond and learn lessons over Pike’s sacrifice and go after Khan together, seeking revenge, NOT his blood. However, you lose the primary motivation for Kirk wanting to pursue Khan which is to avenge Pike’s death. But then, I’m sure they would have figured something else out, they’re clever guys …

62. Aurore - July 10, 2013

“… With your statement, you’ve put me in the clear: I, as of yet, have not seen STID.”
_______

I haven’t watched it yet, either.

But, it is not necessary to discuss the Khan question ; I was already doing so long before Mr. Cumberbatch was cast for the sequel.

:)

63. Other Guy - July 10, 2013

54. Dave M

Stop thinking!

64. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#54. Dave M – July 10, 2013

I suppose….you could have had Khan planning to escape in one of his torpedoes with the others. That would give you an extra torpedo loaded with his sleep chamber. Have Marcus stuff Pike in there for some reason…

65. Basement Blogger - July 10, 2013

@ 61

Aurore,

What the hell are you doing over here with the trolls…. er angry people?! You should see Star Trek Into Darkness. I liked but criticized the 2009 movie but this is Star Trek. Don’t take my word for it. Rotten Tomatoes has rated STID as number three of the summer movies. And it’s number one of the summer tentpoles.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/guides/summer-movie-scorecard-2013/

66. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#60. Curious Cadet – July 10, 2013

If in the original plot Spock blames Khan for Kirk’s death, why in your new one wouldn’t he just as likely blame him for Pike’s? Prime Spock had a deep bond with Pike to the point where he risked his career and death for him. I’d be surprised if altSpock hasn’t already formed such a friendship with him to some degree?

If we stuff Pike in a suspension chamber to save his life then we can have Marcus tell everyone he died (How’s he going to explain where he got the suspension chamber?) to have everything play out as before. The scenario could be Marcus takes Pikecycle to his top secret medical facility (Vengeance?). Saves him. Tries to recruit him. Pike refuses. Pikecycle ends up with Marcus’ “final solution”.

That wouldn’t all have to be revealed on screen to have Pike be the surprise find in the disarmed torpedo.

67. Aurore - July 10, 2013

@ 64. Basement Blogger – July 10, 2013
________

Mr. Wong!

How are you?! I am so happy to hear from you!

“What the hell are you doing over here with the trolls…”

‘Felt like “trolling” myself ; once Mr. Cumberbatch gets his Oscar, that won’t be possible anymore….

…..Fine! Here is the truth ; I was jealous of the attention some people were receiving while attacking others…

:)

“You should see Star Trek Into Darkness.”

I will.

68. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#60. Curious Cadet – July 10, 2013

On rereading, I see I mixed up your Kirk and Spock motivations. Sorry about arguing a point you didn’t make.

69. Bamasi - July 10, 2013

I don’t wish to offend anyone, but if you continue to be this incredibly boring, Mr. Orci will never poke his head back in here.

(Yes, I get the irony of this post).

70. Basement Blogger - July 10, 2013

@ 66

Aurore,

I was watching some Sherlock on Netflix. Benedict Cumberbatch is magnetic.

I brought up the ideas brought up by STID. Prime Directive. War. War on Terror. The nature of Starfleet. But I forgot one. There’s as scene that made me think of Guantanamo Bay, the holding area for alleged terrorists.

71. JLSM511 - July 10, 2013

Just announced on the official @StarTrekMovie twitter:
JUST ANNOUNCED: Own #INTODARKNESS first on Digital Aug 20: j.mp/iTunesFBIntoDa… & On Blu-ray Combo Pack Sept 10: j.mp/AmazonStarTrek

72. Phil - July 10, 2013

Clip from the Blue Ray…

http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/this-week-dvd-blu-ray/fascinating-star-trek-darkness-behind-scenes-blu-ray-193519498.html

73. Phil - July 10, 2013

Gotta love progressive ambiguity….

74. Aurore - July 10, 2013

“Benedict Cumberbatch is magnetic.”
_______

I believe you ; I always said it was not in the best interest of the powers that be to cast a mediocre actor, hence my joke about the award…

“I brought up the ideas brought up by STID.”

Yes.
But, as you’ve guessed I consider that the powers that be made a statement I did not like with some of their “creative” choices…one of them, in particular.

So, I am in no hurry to watch the film.
but, I will eventually…one day…

75. Curious Cadet - July 10, 2013

Holy smokes. August 20th? I wonder if this is Paramount assuming the movie will be out of theaters by then? ST09 didn’t even close until October. And STID doesn’t even open in Japan until August 16th! Then again the entire movie has already been on YouTube. I guess they had better get it out there as fast as possible to keep the pirates from taking away their profits.

76. William Bradley - July 10, 2013

I agree, but four people on a poster is getting to be a lot.

Of course, the Avengers have more than that, so …

Maybe they can each have characteristic action poses, like the Avengers: Uhura with a gun, McCoy with a tricorder and worried look, Spock getting angry again, Kirk getting his butt kicked again …

I kid because I love. :0

>32. Marja – July 9, 2013
29 Wm Bradley: “Plus, and with all due respect to Karl Urban, who is very talented, and the wonderful character of Bones, the posters just look a hell of a lot cooler and more contemporary with her on them.”

I think it would’ve been super if they’d got all four of them onto the posters, honoring fantastic Karl Urban, and it would’ve saved a lot of fanboy hysteria ["Ohgod Uhura's replacing Bones!"] .

I hope McCoy gets a little more to do in the next movie. Maybe side-by-side with Uhura translating as an alien being is getting medical help from McCoy. Of course that would mean having an alien being, which apparently is a turn-off to some international audiences, now apparently the key demographic, god help us.

MATT thank you 100x for updating the thread :)

77. William Bradley - July 10, 2013

IM3 makes a MUCH bigger point than is discussed here.

Yeah, the Mandarin was a racist construct when it was come up with decades ago.

But the real point to making him an actor is not that at all. It’s to demonstrate how the public can be manipulated by the use of scary symbols in the name of the War on Terror.

>42. Disinvited – July 10, 2013
#38. Aurore – July 10, 2013

Which sounds eerily to me like the same hoops that were jumped through for Khan.

78. Phil - July 10, 2013

@75. STID is almost out of theaters now, I’d expect it to be done by the end of the month. It looks like Skyfall was still on a few big screens when the Blue=Rays were released, so it’s not that big of a deal.

79. William Bradley - July 10, 2013

Yes, I agree, MJ. (Uh-oh, lol.)

I love DS9. It started out a little slow, like every Trek series besides the original. But it got up to speed pretty quickly and after a few years became absolutely great.

I like TNG very much, but it was too placid, too perfect, too PC, though Picard is one of the great characters of all time.

>35. MJ (The Original). – July 9, 2013
@30. William, agreed. Next to TOS, DS9 is my favorite of the remaining series. And it is the only series where most of it was completely watchable.

80. Curious Cadet - July 10, 2013

@78 Phil,

No I completely agree, I’ve seen the early close coming for some time now, and with piracy what it is, and basically the entire movie appearing on YouTube, they can’t be fast enough to make it available as soon as it leaves the box office. Gone are the days where the studio could build anticipation. People want what they want and have the means to get it now.

It actually is no surprise considering the studios are actually considering same day downloads when the movies are first released in the theaters.

It’s amazing what just four years can do to an industry in the Internet age. Didn’t we have to wait until December for the ST09 BluRay release?

81. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#70. Basement Blogger – July 10, 2013

Speaking of which:

http://www.411mania.com/movies/news/290023/%5BTV%5D-CBS-Extends-Deal-to-Keep-Star-Trek-on-Netflix.htm

82. Matt Wright - July 10, 2013

@80 – ST ’09 came out in what was the typical home video release window of six months after first theatrical release, it came out on home video on November 17, 2009 in the US.

The accelerated release date of STID is interesting. It is not only coming two months earlier than the typical release window, it was moved up even earlier than the initial release date that Amazon was using of late-September. Skyfall also came out two months earlier than the expected 6-month window, so this new 4-month window may be slowly becoming the new industry norm for hit movies.

83. Aurore - July 10, 2013

“Yeah, the Mandarin was a racist construct when it was come up with decades ago.”
_________

From some of the comments I read from fans familiar with the franchise (which I am not), when Shane Black made this statement, the idea was that since the character had not been a caricature in years, there could be a way for him to be written as a nuanced character. Not a stereotype.

Some fans wrote that he could be “updated”, so to speak.

“But the real point to making him an actor is not that at all…. ”

I ‘ve read so as well.

However, some people obviously did not like the “twist”.

It is clear that the reveal worked for some, but, definitely not for some others who stated that it was yet another blatant case of whitewashing.

84. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#77. William Bradley – July 10, 2013

If you limit it to those 4 because of crowding, then one of the other three will have to be delivering the thrashing. I’d say a tossup twixt Spock and Uhura. Or maybe both? ;-)

#77. William Bradley – July 10, 2013

Good point. But to be clear, the character who hired that actor in the context of the story later revealed that he, the industrialist inventor, was the real Mandarin to Stark by openly declaring it to him in the course of their battle, and I was addressing the parallels in that.

#80. Curious Cadet – July 10, 2013

Tell me about it. I went to a local theater I was near to check showtimes and STID was gone, gone, gone.

85. Disinvited - July 10, 2013

#84. Disinvited – July 10, 2013

The first response listed was to WB’s msg 76 (not 77) regarding Kirk’s thrashing pose.

86. Other Guy - July 10, 2013

Saw this, thought you’d like it.

http://www.examiner.com/article/abrams-omits-salt-vampire-from-star-trek-reboot

87. William Bradley - July 10, 2013

Well, we can’t have Uhura shooting Kirk with her gun, so it would have to be Spock karate chopping him or something in one of his rages … :)

Killian isn’t really much of a Mandarin, since he is really a major US defense contractor … lol

And of course the fake Mandarin was invented as a cover for the, er, unfortunate side effects of Extremis, i.e., a Pentagon-funded project with, um, certain growing pains.

The real point of the fake Mandarin, from Downey and Black’s perspective, is to point out how easily manipulated Americans are by symbols.

That is why the reveal is so delicious in the theater.

>84. Disinvited – July 10, 2013
#77. William Bradley – July 10, 2013

If you limit it to those 4 because of crowding, then one of the other three will have to be delivering the thrashing. I’d say a tossup twixt Spock and Uhura. Or maybe both? ;-)

#77. William Bradley – July 10, 2013

Good point. But to be clear, the character who hired that actor in the context of the story later revealed that he, the industrialist inventor, was the real Mandarin to Stark by openly declaring it to him in the course of their battle, and I was addressing the parallels in that.

88. Curious Cadet - July 10, 2013

@84 Disinvited,
“the character who hired that actor in the context of the story later revealed that he, the industrialist inventor, was the real Mandarin to Stark by openly declaring it to him in the course of their battle”

I have not seen IM3, but from what I read, I rather got the idea that Mandarin was like SPECTRE in the Bond franchise, and Killian is like Blowfeld, if Blowfeld were to say “I ‘AM’ SPECTRE” … So in a sense Mandarin is not just one man, but a vast conspiracy, which the organization, through Killian, hired Kingsley to represent and play on the public’s fears and expectations.

If this is not the case, then it’s too bad, because that’s much more interesting than the so-called ‘white-washing’ that also manages to depict the racist stereotype in Kingsley (whether he was actually the Mandarin or not).

89. Aurore - July 10, 2013

@42
________

When I talked about “racist caricature” earlier (@ 38), I was referring to something he had apparently said a couple of years ago, by the way;

“We decided that the villain was going to be the Melter – no, I’m kidding,” added Black as the audience laughed. The director continued, “That’s the problem, isn’t it? Iron Man never really had good villains.” When audience members suggested the Mandarin, Black dismissed it as a racist caricature.”

Link if authorized, here:
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/joshw24/news/?a=49135

90. William Bradley - July 10, 2013

No.

Killian is a deranged American military contractor who has big problems with one of his systems, which keeps accidentally blowing up, so he hires Ben Kingsley’s Anglo-Indian actor to play a threatening bin Laden-esque terrorist leader called the Mandarin to cover up what is really going on.

His “conspiracy” was to cover up the accidental explosions of his Extremis biosystem, in which he weaponized wounded American vets of our post-9/11 wars, and make them appear instead to be a series of planned terrorist attacks.

This is not about “Khan,” it is not about “white-washing,” it is not about Blowfeld (sic) and SPECTRE, it is the way that Robert Downey and Shane Black selected to pull a real fast one on the audience and making a very serious point about how easily manipulated Americans are by threatening symbols of the Other.

>88. Curious Cadet – July 10, 2013
@84 Disinvited,
“the character who hired that actor in the context of the story later revealed that he, the industrialist inventor, was the real Mandarin to Stark by openly declaring it to him in the course of their battle”

I have not seen IM3, but from what I read, I rather got the idea that Mandarin was like SPECTRE in the Bond franchise, and Killian is like Blowfeld, if Blowfeld were to say “I ‘AM’ SPECTRE” … So in a sense Mandarin is not just one man, but a vast conspiracy, which the organization, through Killian, hired Kingsley to represent and play on the public’s fears and expectations.

If this is not the case, then it’s too bad, because that’s much more interesting than the so-called ‘white-washing’ that also manages to depict the racist stereotype in Kingsley (whether he was actually the Mandarin or not).

91. MJ (The Original). - July 10, 2013

Top Critics = Wrong Again

Just got back from seeing Lone Ranger tonight, and just like DM Duncan said, it was an OK movie that was pretty fun in parts; not even close to the horrid reviews that most of those Top Critics gave it.

Group-think elitist reviewers are part of simply a corrupt element or our media. Putting lipstick on a pig won’t and pretending these folks have character and integrity just doesn’t cut it.

As a group, the Top Critics are FRAUDS!

92. Aurore - July 11, 2013

Correction. 83

From some of the comments I read from fans familiar with the franchise

=

From some of the comments I read from people familiar with the franchise

93. MJ (The Original). - July 11, 2013

Some typical Long Ranger reviews from Yahoo Movies User Reviews:

“Be an independent soul and see the movie. I’m glad we weren’t sheep and follow the media’s lead on this. Great cinematography and a barrel of laughs!!! Sometimes I wonder if the media has a God-complex. It’s as if they take a potential blockbuster hit and team up to take it down just to see if they can!”

“You know the plot; you also know who is in this movie so lets get to it. Gore Verbinski has delivered a film that moves leisurely along peppered with rousing action sequences, comedy, villainy and pathos. It is solid entertainment. I would place this movie alongside Waterworld, The Last Action Hero, and John Carter as unfairly panned films which deserves to succeed in the cinema halls. It is too bad that there appears to be a hate on for this movie simply because it seems that a lot of money was spent in its making. But look at it this way, when you hire real stunt persons, construct and destroy real trains and stage many stunts for real, it is not going to be cheap. I would rather support this type of movie-making any day instead of the tired CGI based effects laden yawners. Every penny of the budget is on screen in a beautiful shot and staged movie. I found it to be an enjoyable 159 minutes of entertainment.”

“The action and humor are awesome, and the relationship between the two is excellent. You can just tell that this was as much of a fun ride making it as it is watching it. Johnny Depp steals it when he is on, you just are mesmerized by what might he do next. Its the subtleties that he adds that really makes him so good and fun to watch. Johnny and Armie play well off each other. Don’t let the so called “professional “critics” make your choices. Let’s face it critics get paid to over analyze and pick things apart. If you want a fun movie to see that certainly gives yours monies worth the movie fits the bill. Can’t wait for the DVD and special features.”

“Another example of how the so called movie “experts” differ from the general public. I thought the movie was great. I can’t believe that only 25% of movie critics reccomended this flick. I reccomend not listening to the critics. A lot of action and humor packed into roughly two hours. I go to the movies to be entertained, not dissect every nuance of a flick for intellectual fodder. Go to it and enjoy the show!!!”

The Intenet has its negative points, but this shows why it can be so awesomely powerful. A lot of us now have the power to tell the media and the Top Critics that they are full of crap.

Bring on John Carter 2 and Long Ranger Part 2

94. Disinvited - July 11, 2013

#88. Curious Cadet – July 10, 2013

Now this movie, I’ve seen. I agree with William Bradley that the actor reveal was that important. However, this movie isn’t perfect (What is?). It has a flaw that weakens that important scene in that, like STID, the Extremis (which can be viewed as a type of genetic enhancement) empowered villain, Killian, tells Stark that he, Killian, is “The Mandarin” while battling him. There simply wasn’t any need for that 2nd “reveal” as the audience and Stark were more than aware at that time what The Mandarin really was, who was using it and why.

95. Other Guy - July 11, 2013

77. William Bradley – July 10, 2013

IM3 makes a MUCH bigger point than is discussed here.

I brought this up a few times, a thousands of posts ago, and they called me a racist.

Those writers. There soooo clever pointing out that the system is broken and in fact may be killing us. But, its OK. Just so we make money off the entertainment value of it all.

That is seriously f’d up. AND YOU ALL LIKE IT IN YOUR STAR TREK!!!

Pathetic. Shame on all of you.

96. Curious Cadet - July 11, 2013

@94. Disinvited,
“the audience and Stark were more than aware at that time what The Mandarin really was, who was using it and why.”

Perhaps this is the source of my confusion. So “The Mandarin” was a character fabricated by Killian. But Killian then isn’t this character, any more than Dick Cheney would be Osama Bin Laden, assuming a similar deception in real life. Killian is “The Mandarin” in as much as he’s responsible for the original problem resulting in the creation of the character to whom it is attributed, but his reasons seem to be totally different than that ascribed to the Mandarin. Plus you’re not the first person to reference “The Mandarin” using the pronouns like “what” IT was, rather than “who” HE was.

I’m sure I will understand it better after I see the movie (which probably won’t happen until it comes to PPV/Cable), but I’m starting to see why the fans were upset, white-washing aside (which in my mind doesn’t really apply to this situation unless I completely misunderstand it). They completely changed who The Mandarin was understood to be, sort of like making Khan a mass genocidal murder. But in this case, there simply is no Mandarin, just an actor playing the part of a fictitious character and the creator of said character. Indeed, despite Black’s comments to the contrary, it seems like he got his racial caricature and ate it too.

97. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

You simply haven’t seen the movie. That is the fundamental source of your confusion.

I don’t know why you are analyzing it at any length, much less this length.

>96. Curious Cadet – July 11, 2013
@94. Disinvited,
“the audience and Stark were more than aware at that time what The Mandarin really was, who was using it and why.”

Perhaps this is the source of my confusion. So “The Mandarin” was a character fabricated by Killian.

98. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

HOWEVER, Iron Man 3 is NOT saying that 9/11 was an “inside job,” which seems to be the only thing you are interested in here.

>95. Other Guy – July 11, 2013
77. William Bradley – July 10, 2013

IM3 makes a MUCH bigger point than is discussed here.

I brought this up a few times, a thousands of posts ago, and they called me a racist.

Those writers. There soooo clever pointing out that the system is broken and in fact may be killing us. But, its OK. Just so we make money off the entertainment value of it all.

99. Other Guy - July 11, 2013

It also seems to be the only thing the producers of Star Trek have been interested in for the past ten years, too, William Bradley.

Just in case you have not noticed.

100. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

I really don’t think that’s right. JJ Abrams is not pushing the 9/11 “inside job” meme.

101. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

Meanwhile, in the real world of movies …

NEW BOND FILM SET FOR RELEASE IN OCTOBER 2015, WITH MENDES BACK AS DIRECTOR.

http://www.deadline.com/2013/07/sam-mendes-confirmed-to-direct-bond-24/

CULVER CITY, Calif., July 11, 2013 – Producers Michael G. Wilson and Barbara Broccoli, EON Productions; Gary Barber, Chairman & CEO, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer; Michael Lynton, CEO, Sony Entertainment, Inc, and Amy Pascal, Co-Chairman of Sony Pictures Entertainment today announced that Daniel Craig will once again return as the legendary British secret agent in the 24th James Bond film and Sam Mendes will also return to direct the screenplay written by John Logan. The film is set for release in UK theaters on October 23, 2015 and in US theaters on November 6, 2015.

SKYFALL™, the 23rd James Bond film, took in $1.1 billion worldwide and set a new mark as the highest-grossing film of all time in the UK; it was the best-selling Bond film on DVD/Blu-ray and was the most critically acclaimed film in the history of the longest-running film franchise.

Commenting on the announcement, Wilson and Broccoli said, “Following the extraordinary success of SKYFALL, we’re really excited to be working once again with Daniel Craig, Sam Mendes and John Logan.”

“I am very pleased that by giving me the time I need to honour all my theatre commitments, the producers have made it possible for me to direct Bond 24. I very much look forward to taking up the reins again, and to working with Daniel Craig, Michael G. Wilson and Barbara Broccoli for a second time,” said Mendes.

Barber added, “We are thrilled to reunite the extraordinary talents of director Sam Mendes with our star Daniel Craig for the next great Bond adventure.” He added, “As evidenced by the phenomenal success of our last collaboration with EON Productions and Sony, the incredible legacy of this 51-year-old franchise continues to amaze.”

Lynton and Pascal said, “It’s a privilege to work on the Bond films. EON, John Logan and Sam Mendes have come up with an extraordinary follow up to SKYFALL and we, along with our partners at MGM, can’t wait to share this new chapter with audiences all over the world.”

102. Curious Cadet - July 11, 2013

You know, going back and looking at the scene where Khan attacks the Enterprise after Spock beams the torpedoes on board and Khan beams Kirk back, I’m even more confused about how Khan is responsible for the reactor becoming misaligned.

Judging by what Kirk had to do to realign the reactor, I’m perplexed by what caused it to shift out of alignment in the first place, considering the instant it did, the Enterprise lost all power, which didn’t happen for minutes after Khan launched a volley on it.

Then there’s Sulu’s announcement after Khan ceases his short phaser volley indicating the shield’s are at 6 percent. Which means they still have shields, which should have protected it from such catastrophic failure.

While I understand this is not critical to understanding what’s happening, it does allow the question of whether Khan is directly responsible for Kirk’s death, by not tying Khan’s attack directly to the reactor. Considering how long it took the reactor to fail, the damage that led to it could have happened at any point during the mission. Indeed it could have been part of the sabotage arranged for by Marcus originally. In particular, if the saboteur was still onboard to ensure nothing went wrong with getting rid of the witnesses, then considering the considerable lag between the attack and the power failure, and the difficulty of knocking the reactor out of alignment, this saboteur could have made this his final act of sabotage, thus taking out all the parties that could bring down Marcus and Section 31.

Of course without a critical analysis of what led to the reactor’s failure and in his overtly, heightened emotional state, Spock could have easily just assumed it was justifiably Khan’s last attack that did it. Still doesn’t the question of why it actually failed diminish Spock’s “Khan” yell in hindsight?

103. Robman007 - July 11, 2013

Seperate topic and food for though…

Marketing was a total fail on this film. One of the biggest and most inexcusable mishaps was…

..not have a COMIC CON panel. No excuse for that. Perfect promotional platform that was ignored.

The ball was dropped alot on this film. CBS being douche’s in regards to franchise rights/promotion, writing team taking too many side projects instead of striking while the iron was hot and going for 2-3 years from 09 films, the lazy writing for the 3rd act and Abrams putting Star Wars ahead of this film by announcing his involvment months before this film.

Still, no Comic con presence was dumb.

104. Robman007 - July 11, 2013

100. William Bradley..thats a franchise that has it’s sh!t together, minus the antics of MGM of course.

105. Marja - July 11, 2013

101, Robman, Agreed! The ComicCon fail was a BIG one. As was the sucky marketing in-theatre. They could have had those beautiful lobby cards (character posters, not those boring-ass teeny Khan posters) up for a month or two in ADVANCE.

How flippin’ stupid is Paramount …?

Let us count the ways

106. Marja - July 11, 2013

$1 million … $2 million … &c.

107. Elias Javalis - July 11, 2013

Just saw it for the first time in Greece:-) Tremendous fun, i enjoyed every freakin minute:-o

i am gearing up for the 3D Screening tomorrow!!

108. Robman007 - July 11, 2013

103. Marja – July 11, 2013

really confusing considering how well marketed 2009 film was.

I cannot remember the exact date the novel series and Polar Lights model were cancelled, but I have a feeling the CBS/Bad Robot feud happened then…every since then everything has felt half assed, including the time it took to get working on this film.

Folks like to point out how they think Bad Robot has done bad to the franchise…I think Paramount and CBS in particular have done rotten to the franchise. Some other big company…WB, Universal, Disney or something needs to get this franchise away from Paramount/CBS who don’t know what the hell they are doing.

109. Other Guy - July 11, 2013

105. Elias Javalis

WOW! How much are tickets?

I thought things were real bad in Greece.
I guess the movie theaters are still open through the economic crisis there?
Or, are things really not that bad?

110. Phil - July 11, 2013

^^^

Yeah, they are. The Germans seem to keep wanting to hold their feet to the fire. That doesn’t mean they are living in caves, though…

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-07/greek-economy-shrank-in-first-quarter-as-investment-fell.html

111. Elias Javalis - July 11, 2013

107,

7 Euros the 2D, About 11 Euros the 3D but i am not sure, i ll get back to you.

You ll be surprised how many people go to theaters still.. Star Trek was super crowed for a 21:30 Screening…I went to the 18:50 2D Screening.. 20-25 People…!

Perhaps people want to escape reality no and then, cant blame them..!

But i really liked Star Trek 2…The sentimentality was rather low this time, maybe because this wasnt an origin story. The overall Art Direction was phenomenal, all the Actors were good, the twists and turns OK for a Blockbuster this size!

Nimoy was a Blast!! To Sum up, a different – cool movie!!

112. Disinvited - July 11, 2013

#96. Curious Cadet – July 11, 2013

Except someone writing the script apparently felt they had to try ameliorate what you observed by having the Extremis arms merchant specifically tell Tony Stark (and the audience) that he “really” was The Mandarin. While I don’t see this as “whitewashing” per se, it does appear to be another, less subtle, Hollywood attempt to “apologize” for an iconic evil character’s previous origin.

113. Colinar - July 11, 2013

I just got back from the cinema. I am in awe.

If by any chance you see this, Bob Orci,

thank you, Sir.

114. Colinar - July 11, 2013

@111 – Elias Javalis,

I found it phenomenal, price was ok for the 3D-i guess, very well spent. Ελπίζω να το απόλαυσες κι εσύ!

Greetings to everyone from Athens, Greece. LLAP \\//

115. Aurore - July 11, 2013

“… While I don’t see this as ‘whitewashing’ per se….”
________

I don’t see this as whitewashing per se, either.

Neither did the people who used that word when referring to “IM3″ (unless I misread a few articles and posts, which is possible).

As I said earlier ; online, I personally noticed that some people were discussing the “new” unwritten Hollywood rule and its… transformative effects… on a few “ethnic” characters.

As far as Iron Man 3 is concerned, they ‘ve been doing so for months, as I discovered a few days ago.

One could argue that… “it”… all started with news that Sir Ben Kingsley would portray The Mandarin…

“….Marvel ‘wanted to blur the background’ of the Mandarin portrayed in Iron Man 3. ‘It’s less about his specific ethnicity than the symbolism of various cultures and iconography that he perverts for his own end,’ Feige explained. As the EW’s Anthony Breznican further explained: ‘From his samurai hair, to his royal robe, to his bin Laden-esque beard, and the AK-47 he keeps at his side, Kingsley’s interpretation is a hodgepodge of various warrior motifs.’ That way, no single ethnicity, particularly one with a population of 1.3 billion, can be offended by Kingsley’s portrayal or his character’s evil doing.”

Link if authorized, here:

http://movieline.com/2012/10/22/iron-man-3-ben-kingsley-the-mandarin-not-chinese/

…It is worth noting that although many appeared to have accepted the idea of Sir Ben Kingsley as The Mandarin… a few people’s real issue now seems to be the fact that, according to them, due to the “twist”, the character has now been reduced to a joke…

116. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

Absolutely. It makes a difference having a couple of producers whose principle purpose is focused on the one thing.

It’s remarkable how durable and vital Bond has proved to be with all the changes since Dr. No in 1962.

As a result, we can enjoy even the clunker Bond films, of which there are, um, more than a couple … :)

>104. Robman007 – July 11, 2013
100. William Bradley..thats a franchise that has it’s sh!t together, minus the antics of MGM of course.

117. Aurore - July 11, 2013

“… While I don’t see this as ‘whitewashing’ per se….”
________

I don’t see this as whitewashing per se, either.

As I said earlier ; online, I personally noticed that some people were discussing the “new” unwritten Hollywood rule and its… transformative effects… on a few “ethnic” characters.

As far as Iron Man 3 is concerned, they ‘ve been doing so for months, as I discovered a few days ago.

One could argue that… “it”… all started with news that Sir Ben Kingsley would portray The Mandarin…

“….Marvel ‘wanted to blur the background’ of the Mandarin portrayed in Iron Man 3. ‘It’s less about his specific ethnicity than the symbolism of various cultures and iconography that he perverts for his own end,’ Feige explained. As the EW’s Anthony Breznican further explained: ‘From his samurai hair, to his royal robe, to his bin Laden-esque beard, and the AK-47 he keeps at his side, Kingsley’s interpretation is a hodgepodge of various warrior motifs.’ That way, no single ethnicity, particularly one with a population of 1.3 billion, can be offended by Kingsley’s portrayal or his character’s evil doing.”

Link if authorized, here:

http://movieline.com/2012/10/22/iron-man-3-ben-kingsley-the-mandarin-not-chinese/

…It is worth noting that many appeared to have accepted the idea of Sir Ben Kingsley as The Mandarin… a few people’s real issue now seems to be the fact that, according to them, due to the “twist”, the character has now been reduced to a joke…

118. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

Well, the Mandarin is very funny, but no joke.

What he is is a cautionary, of how we can be manipulated by threatening theatricality invoking the Eastern Other.

Sir Ben Kingsley’s real name, btw, is Krishna Pandit Bhanji. He has the right ethnicity to play Khan.

I understand some Iron Man comic book fans are upset that the Mandarin has been turned into a fake, but he was really a pretty silly and dated villain. All the Iron Man villains from the comic were.

He was no Khan Noonien Singh.

>115. Aurore – July 11, 2013

…It is worth noting that although many appeared to have accepted the idea of Sir Ben Kingsley as The Mandarin… a few people’s real issue now seems to be the fact that, according to them, due to the “twist”, the character has now been reduced to a joke…

119. Disinvited - July 11, 2013

#102. Curious Cadet – July 11, 2013

Personally, I don’t have a problem with emoSpock at this point in his life. But a Spock who makes a horribly off “guess” to the point of almost executing the wrong party???!!!! That, I think would stick in my craw. Since I would not like to see this happen, I hope, in this case, that you are the one whose guess is horribly off.

120. Aurore - July 11, 2013

“Sir Ben Kingsley’s real name, btw, is….”
__________

I know.

Some of the people giving their opinion on the movie/reveal obviously do too.

In the comics, the character is I believe supposed to be “half” Chinese, not “half” Indian, though. Unless I am mistaken.

“He has the right ethnicity to play Khan.”

I wonder if he would have been interested in appearing in a Star Trek movie in 1982….Had he not been otherwise busy…playing that other Indian character, that is…

:)

“He was no Khan Noonien Singh.”

Evidently, some, among those who are not satisfied with what they saw in the movie would disagree; from what I read, there are fans of the franchise who think he is Iron Man’s greatest foe.

I’ve actually read that , to some at least , he was “Tony Stark’s Lex Luthor or the Joker”…

121. Marja - July 11, 2013

118 Wm Bradley, OMG Sir Ben would have been MARVELOUS. Not to say Cumby wasn’t, but he’s no Ben Kingsley. And, well, y’know, the ethnicity thing.

122. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

120.

Iron Man’s villains were kinda lacking, as was Iron Man in the comics himself.

The movie version of Tony Stark/Iron Man is MUCH better than the comic book version.

The whining would be like Star Trek fans going on about that Romulan officer who bugged the TNG crowd from time to time. What was his name? Tomalak? Something like that.

>Evidently, some, among those who are not satisfied with what they saw in the movie would disagree; from what I read, there are fans of the franchise who think he is Iron Man’s greatest foe.

I’ve actually read that , to some at least , he was “Tony Stark’s Lex Luthor or the Joker”…

123. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

I agree.

Now, I think Cumberbatch is fabulous. It’s just crazy for him to be Khan, is all.

Any other villain, one of Khan’s associates, for example …

>121. Marja – July 11, 2013
118 Wm Bradley, OMG Sir Ben would have been MARVELOUS. Not to say Cumby wasn’t, but he’s no Ben Kingsley. And, well, y’know, the ethnicity thing.

124. Basement Blogger - July 11, 2013

@ 120

Aurore,

A couple things. I agree that it is likely that Khan is a Sikh. But. let’s take a look at the episode Space Seed again. Khan was created by scientists. (McCoy) Lt. McGivers says, “From the northern India area, I GUESS… PROBABLY a Sikh… they’re the most fantastic warriors.”

She’s not sure. Okay, it is possible the scientists could have mixed all kinds of DNA to create Khan. Who is to say that he must be 100 percent Sikh.

And then he’s played by the magnificent Ricardo Montalban. Um… he’s Mexican, not Sikh. And his Hispanic accent is intact. Hey, McGivers is really attracted to physical appearance of Khan and the crew… That objectifier of men. Oops, sorry. I keeeed. I keeeed. But I digress. Khan was created by scientists. Maybe daddy doctor Khan was Sikh but mixed Sikh DNA with all kinds of DNA, hence a lighter skin man.

As for whitewashing in Hollywood, it’s a problem. And I’m a non-PC liberal, Asian American. But the worst example is the craptastic The Last Airbender. (2010) The cartoon featured Asian motifs and the main characters were clearly Asian. The movie featured Caucasian kids. Maybe they thought a movie with Asian kids would not be a hit.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/tellmemore/2010/06/29/128196842/the-white-washing-of-a-nickelodeon-hit

I complained that the plot twist regarding Iron Man 3 and the Mandarin stunk on my blog. That story got over two thousand hits. Seven comments all agreeing. Hey that’s a lot for me. You see turning a bad ass villain into a clown was a big mistake. And being Chinese, I would not have been offended if the Mandarin was Chinese.

Please see Star Trek Into Darkness. See if you can get my Guantanamo Bay prison metaphor from the movie. You”l get it when you see a particular scene at the end.

P.S.
I’ve been watching Space Seed as I write this. This was not one of my favorite episodes for a while. But the more I watch it, the more I really like this show. And get this, some of the best scenes are around conference table. J.J. Star Trek might have been a bit talky for you but nothing beats great dialogue about ideas.

And for you those that complain about Khan’s magic blood. Dr. McCoy in the episode, talks about Khan’s recuperative physical traits. Oops, now comes A Taste of Armageddon. Must watch show….

125. Other Guy - July 11, 2013

111. Elias Javalis

To Sum up, a different – cool movie!!

Stay with us for the discussion, then.

I still say that IM and ID were way too similar. So much so that I think there is definitely a concerted effort to push a certain message. But don’t get me started.

I am glad you liked this Trek Elias. But question everything.

126. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

Yes, Space Seed is actually a great episode.

No, McCoy found no “magic blood.”

In fact, when you look at the dialogue, he references several elements to Khan’s great recuperative powers.

None have anything to do with “magic blood.”

Magic blood is total BS.

>P.S.
I’ve been watching Space Seed as I write this. This was not one of my favorite episodes for a while. But the more I watch it, the more I really like this show. And get this, some of the best scenes are around conference table. J.J. Star Trek might have been a bit talky for you but nothing beats great dialogue about ideas.

And for you those that complain about Khan’s magic blood. Dr. McCoy in the episode, talks about Khan’s recuperative physical traits.

127. Other Guy - July 11, 2013

As I am doing now.

I thought things were so bad in Greece. But your movie prices appear to be the same as in the US. I don’t understand that.

If Greece is so bad off, and the economy is crashing there, should’nt prices for a ticket be like at say, 50-100 Euros? Is there no Inflation? Or, is it that people just are not working and no one has any coin? But with the crowded theater you mention, it seams like thing there are doing OK.

What’s up Elias? Colinar?

128. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

MCCOY: He’ll live.
KIRK: My compliments.
MCCOY: No, I’m good, but not that good. There’s something inside this man that refuses to accept death. Look at that. Even as he is now, his heart valve action has twice the power of yours and mine. Lung efficiency is fifty percent better.
(McGivers enters)
KIRK: An improved breed of human. That’s what the Eugenics War was all about.
MCCOY: I’d estimate he could lift us both with one arm. It will be interesting to see if his brain matches his body.
MARLA: Doctor, will he live?

129. Other Guy - July 11, 2013

126. William Bradley

The whole thing stinks. The alternate Universe/Timeline MUST die.

How about this. Let’s get a letter writing campaign started to get William Shatner to reappear as Kirk!… to destroy the whole blasted JJ perv-alt-verse.

130. Other Guy - July 11, 2013

128. William Bradley

Good post!

10!

131. William Bradley - July 11, 2013

… Incidentally, there’s no way Spock should have been able to go head to head with Khan on that magic carpet ride over San Francisco.

Khan on his own took out a bunch of Klingons. Spock takes a while to even beat up poor Kirk … :)

>KIRK: An improved breed of human. That’s what the Eugenics War was all about.
MCCOY: I’d estimate he could lift us both with one arm.

132. Basement Blogger - July 11, 2013

@ 126, 128

William Bradley,

Yes, McCoy found no “magic blood.” in Space Seed. But your post quotes this line.

“There’s something inside this man that refuses to accept death. ”

We agree that Khan does have recuperative powers. And part of that could be his blood discovered by Abrams McCoy while examining it.

Second, if you recall. Khan is whopping up on Spock aboard the barge. It took Uhura to shoot him before Spock got the upper hand.

Third, by your logic, there’s no way Kirk could have defeated Khan in Space Seed. Khan is five times stronger than a human according to the episode. Both STID and Space Seed have plot issues. I don’t nitpick these things to death. A great episode is a great episode with or without plot holes.

Just watched A Taste of Armageddon, another great episode. Okay, the Enterprise has her shields up. But they are able to beam the ambassador down to the planet. How? Not explained. Do I care? No. I was too involved with the drama and ideas.

Let’s not nitpick Star Trek to death. I mean you could have a scene in the great The Empire Strikes Back where Han Solo and Leia go outside of the ship without spacesuits. At least Star Trek doesn’t do something that goofy.

133. William Bradley - July 12, 2013

132 … Don’t play the pull-one-phrase-out-of-context game, it is a dead concept. It is also very boring.

McCoy lays out the things that make Khan so powerful.

NO MAGIC BLOOD. None. Period.

You really should not make very misleading excuses for one of the most childishly stupid things in the movie.

Meanwhile, this thread seems to be the last refuge of the ultra-rationalizers about STID’s obviouis problems, such as yourself, because it is being absolutely shelled on the new thread about Star Trek going forward.

>132. Basement Blogger – July 11, 2013
@ 126, 128

William Bradley,

Yes, McCoy found no “magic blood.” in Space Seed. But your post quotes this line.

“There’s something inside this man that refuses to accept death. ”

We agree that Khan does have recuperative powers. And part of that could be his blood discovered by Abrams McCoy while examining it.

134. MJ (The Original). - July 12, 2013

Guys,

Vulcans are three times stronger than humans, Khan is five times stronger.

So, Spock can hold his own for awhile in a fight with Khan before he inevitably loses….which is EXACTLY what happens in the movie at the end until Uhura shows up with the phaser to give Spock his opening to turn the tables.

So there is no issues with this scene, whatsoever.

135. Aurore - July 12, 2013

@124.

“A couple things. I agree that it is likely that Khan is a Sikh etc…etc…etc….etc…”
_______

We’ve already had this conversation several times before.

The powers that be made a decision which I do not like .

And, naturally, my saying so is in no way an attempt at coercing people into adopting my views.

Therefore, it is appropriate for the both of us to, once again, agree to disagree as far as the Khan Noonien Singh question is concerned.

“Please see Star Trek Into Darkness.”

Indian Khan or not, let us please not forget that I never was enthusiatic ( to put things mildly ), about the idea of a Khan/Augments/Botany Bay story to begin with.

But, I already said I would, Bernie.

This is an adventure involving the original crew, after all…

136. Captain Slow - July 12, 2013

Since I’m bored with reading all the same old arguments that just keep going on, I thought I’d examine the plot holes of the most beloved Star Trek movie, TWOK.

Obviously, since J.J. wasn’t involved in TWOK it’s flawless in the eyes of most fans. But it is actually pretty loaded with oddities that aren’t easy to explain away.

First of all, we have the issue of Ceti Alpha VI exploding and shifting the orbits of CA5. Any shockwave that could do that would destroy all life on the planet and even Khan’s magic blood wouldn’t save him.

Then there’s the issue of them mixing up the planets.

Chekov: Keptin, we have entered the Ceti Alpha system. Sensors are showing only five planets.
Terrell: Good. That seems completely normal. Set a course for the sixth planet.
Chekov: I have a feeling that I’m forgetting something important about this system…

And of course after that there’s something that J.J. would have been executed for if he’d done it: Khan recognizing Chekov. Nicholas Meyer has said that he knew it was a mistake but that it didn’t matter. It wouldn’t have been hard to have Sulu instead but they just went ahead and violated canon.

Later on in the movie, when Khan steals the Genesis device, he could just as easily have beamed up Kirk and gotten his revenge in person. Kirk was holding a communicator so you can’t say that he didn’t have Kirk’s exact location.

And of course there are other little things like Scotty bringing his wounded nephew to the bridge (well maybe you could say that the turbolift was malfunctioning), or how about the Genesis device sucking up all the nebula gas and turning it into a planet (that’s somehow exactly the right distance from the star to support life)? If a nebula was all they needed then why was the Reliant out looking for planets?

And I should point out that at no point in the movie did Khan show any sign of having superior intellect. He only got off the planet because the Reliant crew can’t count up to six, and then he lost the battle because he forgot that there’s such a thing as up and down. Anyone who could dominate a quarter of the world is going to be a good tactician.

And yet, in spite of all these things, TWOK is still a brilliant, exciting and emotional movie. Plot holes aren’t as bad as everyone makes them out to be. No movie is perfect.

137. Other Guy - July 12, 2013

129. Other Guy

This would be a great idea, but JJ killed the Trek and now there are only five or six of us Trekkers left – still wanting more Trek. REAL TREK. Star Trek!

Bring back the prime verse and stop all the off the rails storytelling. This JJ-alt-verse is really only feeding the egos of these new productions.

It’s obviously NOT Star Trek. Just a Star Jerk.

138. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - July 12, 2013

@59. Disinvited – July 10, 2013
“You do realize that those males have both y and X chromosomes? It wouldn’t be that hard to defrost Khan and have him cook up some emu females. Or would it? ;-)”

I know I’m really late to this fascinating discussion…

However, on Earth, bird sex chromosomes are the opposite of mammal sex chromosomes. This means that the males are ZZ, while the females are ZW. …so, presumably,it would be a lot harder to ‘cook up’ some females from males as the W chromosome would have to be somehow constructed from scratch…

139. Curious Cadet - July 12, 2013

@119. Disinvited,
“But a Spock who makes a horribly off “guess” to the point of almost executing the wrong party???!!!! ”

Well Khan did kill Pike. So there’s that. To the extent Spock let his youthful over-emotional self seek the ultimate revenge against Khan, then certainly killing his former captain and mentor would be right up there as far as justification goes. The Menagerie certainly demonstrated the lengths Spock would go to for Pike. However, that would detract from the intent of Kirk’s death.

But let’s look at the events in real time as depicted on screen, and see if we can come up with a logical explanation to explain it.

Sulu says “he’s locking phasers on us sir”, Scotty beams into the brig and says “let us out of here, now” and the bombardment commences, lasting exactly :08 seconds. After which Sulu says, “our shields are at 6 percent”. The ship appears to continue to shake for another :14 (or it could just be Abrams’ camera work), but no phaser blasts or explosions are heard, before the torpedoes explode aboard the vengeance. From the time the vengeance explodes, it takes almost :50 before the Enterprise loses power. Now, when Kirk kicks the injector back into alignment, it takes less than :03 for complete power to return to the ship. That’s a big difference, since the scene evidently demonstrates that the injector must be in perfect alignment for the ship to have any power at all.

So what happened during those :50 that caused the injector to suddenly go out of alignment — something that took Kirk :22 kicking with all of his might to realign? Surely it didn’t just spontaneously pop out of alignment from a disturbance :50 earlier. And there was no visible damage to that part of the ship, so there’s no external force apparently acting upon it at all.

So my leading theory is that Marcus’ saboteur was still onboard in case anything went wrong, and after Khan failed to take out the Enterprise (which he assumed was Marcus), he went to engineering, electronically misaligned the injectors, then disabled the controls so it could only be manually realigned. Alternatively, Marcus beamed one of his men to Enterprise after the Vengeance’s engines went down to make sure the Enterprise didn’t escape.

140. Phil - July 12, 2013

@136. Yeah, I have to admit the non-stop bitching about JJ’s efforts gets tiring. There hasn’t been a Trek movie made that didn’t have issues, and a few of then were basically direct to video from opening day. WOK was a good movie, but hardly a masterpiece. For that matter, TOS borrowed heavily from other tropes as well. Everyone loves Balance of Terror, which was basically Run Silent, Run Deep in space. That doesn’t diminish the episode, but it was hardly original material.

141. Robman007 - July 12, 2013

“Just watched A Taste of Armageddon, another great episode. Okay, the Enterprise has her shields up. But they are able to beam the ambassador down to the planet. How? Not explained. Do I care? No. I was too involved with the drama and ideas.”

Funny you mention that episode with plot holes. How about the lovely one of “We can’t fire full phasers with our screens up”…since WHEN SCOTTY!?!?!?!

Still, great episode. First Contact violated enough cannon with Cochran and WW3 (Space Seed..Spock referred to the Eugenics Wars as the “last of your so called World Wars” in the mid 1990′s…so, whatever works.

@140..3/4′s of the TNG films were direct to DVD quality. TV films at best. Before the Abrams films, 1/2 of the films were TV movie quality at best (ST 1,5,7,9,10)…3 was pushing it, but was a great middle part of a trilogy. Abrams films, plot holes and “trek-lite” aside, have been solid FILMS….Trek films need to be different then the TV show anyways. Different beast.

142. Basement Blogger - July 12, 2013

@ 133

William Bradley,

Says,

Meanwhile, this thread seems to be the last refuge of the ultra-rationalizers about STID’s obviouis problems, such as yourself, because it is being absolutely shelled on the new thread about Star Trek going forward.”

Thank you for the ad hominem attack. Look, it’s just a discussion, not an opportunity to flame. Yeah McCoy could have discovered the blood in Space Seed. We agree that Khan had recuperative powers. But let’s stop nit picking this thing to death. We could take any great Star Trek show or movie and find plot holes. My example with A taste of Armageddon for example. Again, they beam down the ambassador and the shields are still up. How? Don’t care. Too involved with the great story.

143. Basement Blogger - July 12, 2013

@ 134

MJ,

Agreed. Again, Spock doesn’t get the upper hand until Uhura shows up with a phaser. And it took Spock to get a club to pound Khan. If people want to nit pick, why don’t they attack Space Seeed where Kirk defeats Khan in a hand to hand fight? After all Khan is five times stronger than any human. It’s a hatred for STID. Look, I liked the movie very much. It’s not perfect. But it is Star Trek.

Waiting for ad hominem attack ….

144. Curious Cadet - July 12, 2013

@143. Basement Blogger,
“If people want to nit pick, why don’t they attack Space Seeed”

You act as if they don’t.

“It’s a hatred for STID.”

Unlikely.

“It’s not perfect. But it is Star Trek.”

See, that attitude ensures Star Trek will always be average. Seriously what’s the point if the filmmakers who are entrusted with the franchise aren’t striving to make it better than it was in 1966?

145. William Bradley - July 12, 2013

Sorry, NOT a flame to observe that you are massively rationalizing something which is demonstrably not there.

There is no magic blood in Space Seed. Pretending there is is simply not honest.

>142. Basement Blogger – July 12, 2013
@ 133

William Bradley,

Says,

Meanwhile, this thread seems to be the last refuge of the ultra-rationalizers about STID’s obviouis problems, such as yourself, because it is being absolutely shelled on the new thread about Star Trek going forward.”

Thank you for the ad hominem attack. Look, it’s just a discussion, not an opportunity to flame. Yeah McCoy could have discovered the blood in Space Seed. We agree that Khan had recuperative powers. But let’s stop nit picking this thing to death. We could take any great Star Trek show or movie and find plot holes.

146. William Bradley - July 12, 2013

Again, you are not betraying knowledge of the episode, just as when you pretend that McCoy didn’t lay out the specific reasons for Khan’s great recuperative abilities, which do not include “magic blood.”

Kirk does not defeat Khan hand to hand.

He defeats him by cheating, by pulling a big rod out of the wall in engineering, surprising Khan and bludgeoning him with it.

It is a flat out distortion for you to say “Kirk defeats Khan in a hand to hand fight.”

>143. Basement Blogger – July 12, 2013
@ 134

MJ,

Agreed. Again, Spock doesn’t get the upper hand until Uhura shows up with a phaser. And it took Spock to get a club to pound Khan. If people want to nit pick, why don’t they attack Space Seeed where Kirk defeats Khan in a hand to hand fight?

147. William Bradley - July 12, 2013

I have to say that this practice of simply changing the facts to try to make a point is very bad.

And claiming that you are “flamed” when the attempt fails is not something I’m coming up with as a polite term.

148. William Bradley - July 12, 2013

Changing the subject from the same old unhappy chewings, who is up for Pacific Rim?

149. MJ (The Original). - July 12, 2013

“He defeats him by cheating, by pulling a big rod out of the wall in engineering, surprising Khan and bludgeoning him with it.”

Yep, I agree with William on that point.

150. Disinvited - July 12, 2013

#138. ObsessiveStarTrekFan – July 12, 2013

Thanks for bringing me up to speed on that.

151. Captain Slow - July 13, 2013

I disagree on that point. It’s been a while since I saw Space Seed, but to the best of my recollection, Kirk pulls out a flimsy little plastic tube that looks like a toilet part, hits Khan on his back a few times (one of the less vulnerable parts of the human body) and knocks him out.
The way it happened in STID, it took a nerve pinch, a fist fight, several phaser shots and then a beating with a piece of metal to do that.

And on slightly related note, everyone has been wondering why McCoy couldn’t use the blood from one of the other frozen people, but in Space Seed we see Spock successfully use the nerve pinch on one of them, but in STID it doesn’t work on Khan. So was Khan perhaps even more superior than the rest of his crew? Although I don’t know how McCoy could have figured this out.

152. Captain Slow - July 13, 2013

Hmm, regarding speculation for then next movie, I see that issue 26 of the comic is about a war between the Klingons and the Romulans with a cover featuring what looks like a fleet of Narada-type ships. Now I haven’t got many of the comics because I’m waiting for the four-issue collections so I don’t know everything that’s been going on in them, but since they’re overseen by Orci, I wonder if this war and these ships will have anything to do with the movie.

153. MJ (The Original). - July 13, 2013

@151 “Kirk pulls out a flimsy little plastic tube that looks like a toilet part, hits Khan on his back a few times (one of the less vulnerable parts of the human body) and knocks him out.”

It may have looked like flimsy plastic, but that was because of cheap special effects. In my opinion, it was suppose to be a heavy piece of hardware.

Also, consider that Khan-Space Seed had only been unfrozen for a couple of days. Obviously, someone just coming out of suspended animation might take weeks or months to regaining full strength. Whereas Khan in STID had at least a year.

154. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

Yeah, it’s been awhile since you saw Space Seed, all right.

>151. Captain Slow – July 13, 2013
I disagree on that point. It’s been a while since I saw Space Seed, but to the best of my recollection, Kirk pulls out a flimsy little plastic tube that looks like a toilet part, hits Khan on his back a few times (one of the less vulnerable parts of the human body)

155. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

COMING NEXT WEEK — THE RET-CON FOR RET-KHAN!

It’s the STID prequel comic, called … “Star Trek: Khan.”

It fills in all that stuff that didn’t get mentioned about who the guy is in the movie.

156. Captain Slow - July 13, 2013

@ 153 MJ

True. But I still have my doubts about Kirk being able to beat up Khan. Especially as Khan crushed Kirk’s phaser at the beginning of the scene. And Kirk had just come out of the decompression chamber that must have weakened him.

157. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

You doubt that Kirk coldcocked Khan with a nasty metal rod and bludgeoned him into unconsciousness??

As the saying goes, everybody gets to have their own opinion, but not their own set of facts.

158. Captain Slow - July 13, 2013

My point is that Spock (who is stronger than a human) had to have a massive fight to take him down, all Kirk had to do was beat him for a few seconds with a funny tube. It just doesn’t seem plausible that that’s all you had to do to stop someone who conquered a quarter of the world.

159. Curious Cadet - July 13, 2013

@158. Captain Slow,
“all Kirk had to do was beat him for a few seconds with a funny tube.”

I realize we live in age where entertainment of all types show people being bludgeoned with baseball bats and golf clubs, and steel bars, and they keep getting to their feet and fighting and sometimes even winning after that. But that’s not how things really work.

The fact a low-budget 1960s TV series on a tight production schedule made a poor judgement call on a prop, not to mention how they shot it (sometimes the rod doesn’t even make contact with Khan), and didn’t have the luxury to reshoot it does not dimished what the intent of the scene was.

——————–
“It just doesn’t seem plausible that that’s all you had to do to stop someone who conquered a quarter of the world.”

Not sure what this has to do with anything. Your description also more or less applies to Hitler. Do you think Kirk could have physically taken out Hitler?

160. Captain Slow - July 13, 2013

I think my problem with it is the whole concept. I think that if you’ve created a villain whose power is in his greater strength and cunning, you shouldn’t have him be defeated in a simple little fight. I know that on a low budget they couldn’t have something as big as STID’s final battle but something more impressive would have been nice.

And the Hitler comparison doesn’t work because Hitler didn’t come to power because he was stronger and smarter than anyone else. Khan did and to have him be beaten by someone five times weaker just doesn’t seem believable.

161. Basement Blogger - July 13, 2013

@ 146

You are incorrect by saying that I don’t know the episode. I just watched it. Khan says he’s five times stronger than any man. Kirk goes toe to toe with Khan. That happens after he crushes Kirk’s phaser. Remember that Khan in Space Seed throws a security guard like a rag doll. I mean the fight should be over in two seconds. Why don’t you scream about that? Could it be that you hate STID so much that you are going to nitpick it death? And yes, Kirk does take a big rod and hits him with it, just like Spock. But it takes Uhura In STID to shoot him with a phaser before Spock gets the upper hand.

There are plot holes in the best of Star Trek not just STID. We’ve discussed A Taste of Armageddon. But the fight scene between Spock and Khan is not one of them.

William Bradley the says @147,

“And claiming that you are “flamed” when the attempt fails is not something I’m coming up with as a polite term.”

Thank you for making my point. As we have seen your act with other posters, you like making it personal. I’m sure your’e going respond and we get what you want. More personal comments in an effort to spam the daylights out of this post. So please make another personal comment. I think it’s time to stop feeding you.

P.S. @ 155

Lovely tone. Something bothering you?

162. Basement Blogger - July 13, 2013

@ 144

Curious Cadet,

Don’t take things out of context. I did not say Star Trek Into Darkness is average. STID is an excellent film. I gave it A grade. So, I’m not supporting average Star Trek. To say it is Star Trek is a compliment. I look to what Gene Roddenberry wanted for the show. Intelligent science fiction. Along iwith its epic action, there are ideas in the movie. The Prime Directive. War on terror. War. Death. A quick metaphor for Guantanamo Bay.

No movie is perfect is my point. Mu favorite movie Casablanca is not perfect. I’m not a fan of Abrams’ pacing for Star Trek 2009 though he was much better this time. Not a fan of the camera gymnastics that he uses. Still STID is an excellent movie.

163. Captain Slow - July 13, 2013

Star Trek Into Darkness was in my opinion one of the most intelligent Trek films. It had a villain who was more interesting than just about all of the previous ones and a story that was about NOT killing the bad guy which is very different from most other action movies.
I know some people have complained that Spock is out for revenge at the end, but I think that strengthens the theme because they needed Khan alive to save Kirk (for reasons which unfortunately we aren’t told) and so if Spock had gotten his revenge then Kirk would have stayed dead. It shows us that revenge causes more harm than good.

@ 162 BB
How would you rate STID against the other Trek films?

164. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

More disingenuous baiting from the Basement Blogger.

Equals Boring.

Also, he/she does not know what “spam” means, among other things.

Equals Boring and pointless.

>. More personal comments in an effort to spam the daylights out of this post.

165. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

It’s not “a funny little tube.” It’s a bad-ass rod he clearly bludgeons Khan with

You don’t get to make up your facts.

But of course you are just trolling here.

It’s very dull, and not at all like the good Star Trek boards of the past.

But very much in keeping with the little cadre of those who must defend all aspects of STID at all cost.

>158. Captain Slow – July 13, 2013
My point is that Spock (who is stronger than a human) had to have a massive fight to take him down, all Kirk had to do was beat him for a few seconds with a funny tube. It just doesn’t seem plausible that that’s all you had to do to stop someone who conquered a quarter of the world.

166. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

… Meanwhile, on the new main thread, there is actual discussion taking place that is not focused on tedious rationalizations for STID, where everyone knows magic blood is silly, and where my views are relatively positive with regard to the movie.

167. Curious Cadet - July 13, 2013

@160. Captain Slow,
“And the Hitler comparison doesn’t work because Hitler didn’t come to power because he was stronger and smarter than anyone else.”

Well, first I would argue that yes, Hitler came to power because he was smarter than most people, particularly Hindenberg whom he maneuvered into systematically turning over the government to him bit by bit. And how exactly does being smarter help in a strength contest anyway?

Second, what proof exactly do you have that Khan personally used his physical strength to forceably conquer 1/4 of the Earth’s population? First I’ve heard of it. I will virtually gurantee you that in Orci’s IDW Khan comic where we see Khan come to power in our 1990s, that it will all happen quietly behind the scenes and out of the public eye, so that no one ever knew it was happening, and can therefore plausibly have occurred. In fact I will go so far as to say Khan will be depicted a lot like Hitler’s rise to power, genocidal tendencies and all, but without the international media spotlight. His physical strength will be of no consequence in his rule.

168. Curious Cadet - July 13, 2013

@162. Basement Blogger,
“Don’t take things out of context. I did not say Star Trek Into Darkness is average.”

No you didn’t. And neither did I.

169. Captain Slow - July 13, 2013

@165 William Bradley

I am not the one making up facts. I am pointing out that it is a funny little tube that he clearly bludgeons Khan with even though it can’t be that heavy (well I suppose it could be a tachyon rod or something).

And no, I am not just trolling. I outright refuse to be called a troll. I have only started posting semi-regularly since the movie came out and I’ve never insulted anyone and when I disagree with someone I try to counter their arguments, not just call them names. I will defend STID because I think it’s a good movie. Have you got a problem with that?

@167 Curious Cadet.

I will concede that you are probably right on this point and it wasn’t the best argument to make.

Anyway, I’m bored with this discussion. I’m going to leave it alone before it gets more personal.

170. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

You absolutely make up “facts,” from magic blood to claiming Kirk took Khan in a hand to hand fight, to claiming the prop isn’t supposed to be what it is obviously supposed to be.

Then you claim it is “flaming” to point out false statements.

This behavior absolutely defines trolling.

It also shows how utterly boring STID rationalization has become. And what an incredible waste of time it is, especially replying to an anono handle.

>169. Captain Slow – July 13, 2013
@165 William Bradley

I am not the one making up facts. I am pointing out that it is a funny little tube that he clearly bludgeons Khan with even though it can’t be that heavy (well I suppose it could be a tachyon rod or something).

171. Red Dead Ryan - July 13, 2013

Despite my heated arguments with William Bradley a number of days ago, I have to agree with him on the issues regarding Kirk beating up Khan with the rod in “Space Seed”.

It was clearly meant to be a heavy metal rod, but the way the show was produced back then, and more specifically how that scene was shot, its easy to regard the prop as a cheap piece of plastic (in reality it most likely was) instead of seeing it in the context of needs of the episode (the requirement for a heavy metal object strong enough to knock out a tough guy).

I’m not sure there’s anything else to be said here except for…..CASE CLOSED!!!

172. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

171. Red Dead Ryan – July 13, 2013

Thank you.

I find that these days we are agreeing on most things. Which is good. :)

173. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

BTW, the whole thing about effects and props in the TOS days looking “fake” is irrelevant.

The tech wasn’t there, the budget wasn’t there. It all required suspension of disbelief.

And it got it in those times, too, because that was the state of TV in the ’60s. It’s easy for people who come late to the game, who are used to the latest CGI and big budget action movies, to mock it all, but it’s also pointless.

Remember that in what may be the greatest TOS episode, City on the Edge of Forever, massive events were set in motion by the Guardian of Forever.

Which was a talking papier mache rock!

174. Elias Javalis - July 13, 2013

Colinar,

I will be going for my 3D viewing Sunday,,! Sure it has flaws but its a well made Star Trek film! It has all the core elements a Blockbuster movie needs and more… I also liked the references to DS9 (2 – Martoks home town and Section 31 but i really wouldnt have Marcus to reveal that to Kirk). Anyway, i didnt mind the reverse scenes for the Radiation room and the Khaaan yell! They were nice homages to the Wrath of Khan – nothing disgraceful… Great Spectacle, everything looked pro, Kudos to Chambliss – Great Job!! Overall a good – First Contact type of a movie, well written, Twists and Turns, all the Darkness took away that sentimentality the first one had but…thats OK! Thanks to Mr Orci and Co, their love and care was obvious..!!

How about releasing the Deluxe Edition of the Soundtrack now, The Score was tremendous!!

175. MJ (The Original). - July 13, 2013

@173 “Remember that in what may be the greatest TOS episode, City on the Edge of Forever, massive events were set in motion by the Guardian of Forever. Which was a talking papier mache rock!”

Exactly

And I just looked at the fight scene again myself. A lot of the fight is Kirk’s using Khan’s own leverage against him — which is exactly how a weaker fighter tries to bring a stronger fighter down. You can see it the fight that Kirk is deliberately avoiding a face-to-face punch exchange.

176. MJ (The Original). - July 13, 2013

@174 “I will be going for my 3D viewing Sunday”

It’s still showing somewhere in 3D? I find that doubtful?

177. Colinar - July 13, 2013

Hi Elias,

I didn’t mind that either, I felt it was a descent homage to TWOK (even the Spock scream felt OK), but I myself seem to have been more “touched” than in the first movie. I also think there was plenty of sentiment, it was just given in a different way. It was actually like, “hey, I know these guys, I understand the dynamic between them but it’s kinda different this time around”. New elements of the characters were revealed, showing their progress as well as their flaws. But overall, it was classy on another level, higher than ST2009, in my opinion.

I will be going for my second 3D viewing on Wednesday. Hope to catch some more this time, as the first time was so full of excitement I didn’t have the time to process things.

Have a great time on your 3D viewing! Καλό Σαββατοκύριακο :)

178. Colinar - July 13, 2013

176 – MJ,

In Greece, the movie just opened this Thursday. :)

179. Basement Blogger - July 13, 2013

@ 162

Captain Slow,

Here’s how I rate the films.

12. Star Trek V. The Final Frontier Grade C.
11. Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Grade B Minus
10. Star Trek Insurrection. Grade B Minus.
9. Star Trek: Generations Grade B.
8. Stat Trek: Nemesis. Grade B.
7. Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country Grade B
6. Star Trek III: The Search for Spock Grade B
5. Star Trek (2009) Grade B
4. Star Trek: First Contact. Grade A
3. Star Trek Into Darkness. Grade A
2 Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan. Grade A.
1. Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Grade A Plus.

180. MJ (The Original). - July 13, 2013

@178

Cool !

@179

Wow, BB, you have Nemesis that high, and TMP so low — and Insurrection and Nemesis rated better than TMP?

TMP is hands-down better than those two films in my book. It may not be the best story, but the visuals and music along make if by fare by the best looking and least dated of TOS Trek movies.

181. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

Remember how Kirk was something of a martial arts guy in those days, complete with the patented “Kirk Flying Kick?”

Later I learned when studying karate that there are many things that can happen trying something like that and, unless one is Bruce Lee, almost all of them are bad.

Anyway, I don’t think Kirk tried anything like that with Khan, who would probably have grabbed him and thrown him against the wall.

Instead, he sneakily pulled that super-badass power rod dealio out of the wall and “cheated” his way to another win!

>175. MJ (The Original). – July 13, 2013
@173 “Remember that in what may be the greatest TOS episode, City on the Edge of Forever, massive events were set in motion by the Guardian of Forever. Which was a talking papier mache rock!”

Exactly

And I just looked at the fight scene again myself. A lot of the fight is Kirk’s using Khan’s own leverage against him — which is exactly how a weaker fighter tries to bring a stronger fighter down. You can see it the fight that Kirk is deliberately avoiding a face-to-face punch exchange.

182. Basement Blogger - July 13, 2013

@ 180

MJ,

I like Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I just think the execution was bad. The story was very much like TOS. Smart. But it lacked dramatic drive. Somewhat derivative. See The Changeling. Too much of the first person shots of going through V’Ger. Should edit those scenes. Perhaps, there should have been a scene where the Enterprise gets hull damage when V’Ger attacks with crew members blasted out into space. .

Interesting that some fans think TMP was a failure. It did very well at the box office.

“In the United States, The Motion Picture sold the most tickets of any film in the franchise until 2009′s Star Trek, and it remains the highest-grossing film of the franchise worldwide adjusted for inflation,[152][153] but Paramount considered its gross disappointing compared to expectations and marketing.”

From Wikipededia.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Motion_Picture

It had the best music in the series. Jerry Goldsmith wrote a magnificent score. The scene with Kirk reviewing the Enterprise to Goldsmith’s main theme was fantastic. A little thing like seeing “United Federation of Planets” on the side of the ship gives me goose bumps. it’s one inspiring scene.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture is a good movie that needed better execution. As for liking the TNG movies Insurrection and Nemesis , better,first I don’t hate the TNG movies. Second, those two TNG movies were better movies in terms of pacing and dramatic drive. If TMP did those things I suggested I would rate TMP much higher.

183. Captain Scarlet - July 13, 2013

#1-MJ
I agree with you,Pine said in an interview that he was under contract fo four
Trek movies…….

184. MJ (The Original). - July 13, 2013

@182. Thanks for the explanation — I do understand your POV. However, for me, Nemesis, STV and Insurrection are equally unwatchable — all equally horrid movies, as well as very bad ST movies.

TMP, on the other hand, is the best Trek movie attempt ever at a realistic hard sf space adventure movie. No other Trek movies come close to it in this regard. And, additionally, until Trek 2009, TMP, made way back in the late 1970′s, had the best looking special effects of any Trek movie — and this held for and astounding 30 years!!! Furthermore, TMP has the least dated look of any older Trek movie, and has, hands-down, the best musical score of any Star Trek movie to date.

TMP had a poor script and poor execution of drama though, which is why on my list I rate it below Trek 2009, and ST’s 2 through 4. But is certainly is on par at least with Trek 6, STID, and FC — in my personal opinion (i.e they all tie for 5th place on my fav Trek movies list).

185. MJ (The Original). - July 13, 2013

@183. Thanks!

186. William Bradley - July 13, 2013

Insurrection is my least favorite Trek picture. It’s the only one I’ve never bought. (And I will get STID.) It always felt like a not very interesting TNG episode.

Nemesis isn’t good, but it tries to be about big things. It just doesn’t pull it off.

Star Trek V, well, bad movie, with some horrific moments, but it has a great score — like Insurrection and, to a lesser extent Nemesis (all Jerry Goldsmith, of course) — and, er, I know there’s something else I like about it …

I know! It has a great line: “What does Good need with a starship?”

Which of course is making a point …

187. Captain Scarlet - July 13, 2013

Spock says the Trek sequel is filming in 2014!!!

http://collider.com/star-trek-3-news-zachary-quinto/

188. Captain Slow - July 13, 2013

@170 William Bradley

I never claimed you were flaming. Read all of my posts and you won’t see anything that resembles that. I never made up facts. I simply pointed out how they appeared to me. And as for me not using my name (which I do use on other sites), what does that have to do with anything?

Anyway, I’m tired of this argument and I’m willing to forget it if you are and move on to more interesting topics that can hopefully discussed calmly.

On the subject of rating the movies, I have to ask how anyone could put TSFS above TUC? TSFS had what I thought was the worst villain in any of the Star Trek movies. If Kruge is in the next movie I might blow up.

189. MJ (The Original) - July 14, 2013

@188.

TUC is the most dated of all TOS Trek movies. I used to think it was great, but now it irritates me somewhat and I only consider it an average Trek movie. And the whole Cold War thing was already dated when the movie first premiered. Spock talking about Nixon = completely dumbass.

Sorry, but TUC doesn’t come close to TSFS in my book.

And I like Kruge — so sue me. ;-)

190. Captain Slow - July 14, 2013

Well it should be even more dated for me since the Cold War was over before I was born, but I still think it’s excellent. I never even knew about the Cold War parallels until I read about it somewhere. I just focused on the story of Kirk having to get over his hatred of Klingons.

TSFS on the other hand was a movie that was badly paced, had a villain without much of a motive and then blew up the Enterprise while William Shatner said his lines woodenly. And then there was that thing with the magic proto-matter bringing Spock back to life.

191. Elias Javalis - July 14, 2013

187,

Great news Man, you just made my ”Projection”!!;)

3D in one Hour!!!

Keep em coming!!

192. Red Dead Ryan - July 14, 2013

#190.

“TSFS on the other hand was a movie that was badly paced, had a villain without much of a motive and then blew up the Enterprise while William Shatner said his lines woodenly. And then there was that thing with the magic proto-matter bringing Spock back to life.”

TSFS is a much better movie than TUC. Coupled with TWOK, it is the most epic, and adventure-filled of all the movies prior to the JJ films. Kruge was excellent as the pure bad guy. William Shatner put in one of his best performances, especially the scenes where he learned that the Klingons killed his son, and his brief regret at destroying the Enterprise. Shatner conveyed very well how lonely and lost (spiritually) Kirk is without Spock beside him.

TUC, on the other hand, featured an old and tired Shatner who was clearly ready to move on. I think the audience felt the same way. And yes, the cold war allegory is dated. It’s not a bad movie, but there are better ones. Chang and Gorkon were excellent, though.

193. William Bradley - July 14, 2013

Appearing/disappearing/appearing posts …

194. Robman007 - July 15, 2013

TSFS is one of the most underrated of the Trek films. It’s probably one of the best. The music was amazing, only film to open with the “Space the final frontier” opening…great performance by Shatner and Kelly and Kruge was one of the best Klingons ever…most ruthless and TOS of any Klingon since TOS (and since TNG screwed up what Klingons were about)…very underrated film….

The theft of the Enterprise scene is one of the greatest scenes in all of TOS Trek.

195. Disinvited - July 15, 2013

#192. Red Dead Ryan – July 14, 2013

Nicholas Meyer won me over with his TIME AFTER TIME so I had high hopes for TWOK, and he didn’t disappoint. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe to some degree or another Meyer was involved with 3 of next 4 films with the exception being THE FINAL FRONTIER? I mention it because of the first 6, Robert Wise is responsible for 1 that I hold in high regard and I associate Meyer with the rest. It wasn’t until I exited my first screening of INSURRECTION that I began to change my less than stellar estimation of THE FINAL FRONTIER and if I couldn’t muster much forgiveness then, by NEMESIS I surely did. I never hated it. It had much to cherish. In hindsight, I think Shatner just suffered by the comparison to Nimoy’s excellent works and the fact he had not yet developed his Priceline negotiating skills to employ in his budget negotiations with Paramount. In fact, I’m a bit surprised that he hasn’t yet started a Kickstarter bid along those lines.

Anyway, the youngest in my clan who have become fans of the first series from its syndicated reruns prior to the FX upgrade [and I suspect from spying on me watching my private collection] consider THE VOYAGE HOME the best Trek movie ever. Now get this, they don’t hold THE WRATH OF KHAN in as high a regard as I would have imagined. Their number two favorite Trek film is: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK.

So not only do I agree with you but I suspect that TSFS may reach across generations far more exquisitely than I could ever have imagined after leaving my first screening of it on the weekend of its first release.

196. Steve - July 15, 2013

TUC has one of the stupidest lines I’ve ever heard Spock utter:

“The dismantling of our starbases and outposts along the Neutral Zone, an end to nearly 70 years of unremitting hostility which the Klingons can no longer afford.”

In the line previous to this, Spock mentions that the Klingons couldn’t fix the problems caused by the explosion on Praxis, because they’ve run out of money fighting an arms race they can’t afford. This is the cold war parallel that is made. The Soviet Union ran out of money because they believed our missile defense (aka “Star Wars”) worked (it didn’t). But also, their leadership was liberalizing and decentralizing it’s power in Eastern Europe and the Warsaw Pact nations. There was a coup d’tat in August of 1991 to ouster Gorbachev and Yeltsin, and it was only defeated because the Russian people wouldn’t rally behind it and cooler heads in the military prevailed.

Spock says that dumb line and that’s where the cold war metaphor breaks down. Why? Because when the Soviet Union fell, I don’t remember NATO or the US dismantling our bases in Western Europe, the Mediterranean or the Middle East. If anything, after the fall, they probably shored up after Gorbachev gave Yeltsin the nuclear codes because who knew what Yeltsin was like? How long would he remain in power? Who had control of the military? etc.

I believe we offered Russia some limited form of aid and I believe The Federation would do the same thing, as the Klingons gave no indication up to that point to trust them any more than that (their political infrastructure seemed solid). Gorkon is supposed to be a liberal Klingon but It’s a great leap from “Let me help” to “No problem, we’ll disarm, you keep your guns as a show of good faith.” I’m not a hawk, but if you remove your armor in the middle of a sword fight you’re going to get cut.

Also, wouldn’t an open resolution of help in the UFP Security Council be a better gesture than a secret meeting in deep space with The Chancellor of the Klingon Empire and his heir apparent on board the same ship? You’re talking a major political upheaval if BOTH of them happen to die on the mission.

TUC is fraught with problems, like most Star Trek movies. It is entertaining, just don’t go too deep into it. It’s the same with ST XI and XII.

197. William Bradley - July 16, 2013

Well, this is pretty confused stuff.

Without going point by point, I’ll just point out the main problem with your analysis.

In the real world, the Soviet Union fell.

In Star Trek, the Klingon Empire did not fall.

It was simply weakened.

And yes, the civilian Federation leadership, being set in the semi-utopian Star Trek future, is more liberal than our own. That’s always been the subtext.

>196. Steve – July 15, 2013
TUC has one of the stupidest lines I’ve ever heard Spock utter:

“The dismantling of our starbases and outposts along the Neutral Zone, an end to nearly 70 years of unremitting hostility which the Klingons can no longer afford.”

In the line previous to this, Spock mentions that the Klingons couldn’t fix the problems caused by the explosion on Praxis, because they’ve run out of money fighting an arms race they can’t afford. This is the cold war parallel that is made. The Soviet Union ran out of money because they believed our missile defense (aka “Star Wars”) worked (it didn’t). But also, their leadership was liberalizing and decentralizing it’s power in Eastern Europe and the Warsaw Pact nations. There was a coup d’tat in August of 1991 to ouster Gorbachev and Yeltsin, and it was only defeated because the Russian people wouldn’t rally behind it and cooler heads in the military prevailed.

Spock says that dumb line and that’s where the cold war metaphor breaks down. Why? Because when the Soviet Union fell, I don’t remember NATO or the US dismantling our bases in Western Europe, the Mediterranean or the Middle East. If anything, after the fall, they probably shored up after Gorbachev gave Yeltsin the nuclear codes because who knew what Yeltsin was like? How long would he remain in power? Who had control of the military? etc.

I believe we offered Russia some limited form of aid and I believe The Federation would do the same thing, as the Klingons gave no indication up to that point to trust them any more than that (their political infrastructure seemed solid). Gorkon is supposed to be a liberal Klingon but It’s a great leap from “Let me help” to “No problem, we’ll disarm, you keep your guns as a show of good faith.” I’m not a hawk, but if you remove your armor in the middle of a sword fight you’re going to get cut.

198. MJ (The Original). - July 16, 2013

@197. “In the real world, the Soviet Union fell. In Star Trek, the Klingon Empire did not fall.”

That’s not a fair comparison, since the Soviet Union fell after the release of ST 6. True, it was literally right after the movies release, but the movie was “in the can” six months before the release date, with the screenplay more than a year old already.

199. William Bradley - July 16, 2013

It’s a very fair comparison given what the OP said.

Since my latest column is done, I no longer have the excuse of procrastination for hanging around …

200. MJ (The Original). - July 16, 2013

It’s better to be feared. Re: Jimmy Carter

201. Keachick - rose pinenut - July 17, 2013

There were a number of dumb lines and out of character scenes in TUC. It is not one of my favourite Star Trek movies. The main characters behaved in a disgraceful and childish manner, something that none of them had done in every previous Star Trek (movie or TV series).

Shame on Nicholas Meyer and Leonard Nimoy.

202. KirksLove - July 17, 2013

Cumberbatch doing promo in Japan for STID… why doesn’t anyone talk about that? It’s fantastic! 1000 fans at the airport and stuff…

203. William Bradley - July 17, 2013

Excuse me, but you are complaining elsewhere that you are SHOCKED to learn that Start Trek fans can be divisive and angry and here you flame all over one of the most beloved Star Trek films?

Amusing.

>201. Keachick – rose pinenut – July 17, 2013
There were a number of dumb lines and out of character scenes in TUC. It is not one of my favourite Star Trek movies. The main characters behaved in a disgraceful and childish manner, something that none of them had done in every previous Star Trek (movie or TV series).

Shame on Nicholas Meyer and Leonard Nimoy.

204. William Bradley - July 17, 2013

This place is done.

>200. MJ (The Original). – July 16, 2013
It’s better to be feared. Re: Jimmy Carter

205. Elias Javalis - July 17, 2013

Guys, anyone spotted Heather Langenkamp in the film??

206. crazydaystrom - July 18, 2013

205. Elias Javalis
“Guys, anyone spotted Heather Langenkamp in the film??”

She totally unrecognizable under full alien makeup as the Enterprise brig officer. Strange but true. *shrugs*

207. PaulB - July 18, 2013

#201 Keachick: Agreed! TUC is vastly overrated. You described its main faults perfectly. I still cannot understand why so many fans drool over it when the characters are terribly out of character, the continuity with canon is awful, the film’s internal logic is awful, the humor is awful…

Up until Kirk and McCoy are arrested, it’s a decent Trek flick, but after that it becomes a parody of good Trek and especially a parody of the characters.

208. crazydaystrom - July 18, 2013

I love TUC but yeah a few things about it always bugged me.

For one –
Fierce warriors that the Klingons are, Kirk and McCoy beaming to Gorkon’s ship right after that savage attack, I believe they would’ve been killed in about 0.5 of a second. I don’t care how much confusion was going on, the good Captain and Doctor would’ve been meat. I know, I know, these were more polished and diplomatic Klingons. But still. Same applies to the assassins for that matter. You’d think the Klingons would have been trained for zero-grav combat. Or at very least zero-g defense.

For another-
How did McCoy and the Klingons not see that Veridian patch on Kirk’s shoulder?!? No one noticed it when they were arrested. Not even when they were imprisoned!?! Come on! It should’ve gone something like this – “Kirk’s got some kinda weird black catapillar thing on his..HEY! Wait a minute!!! *swoosh of bat’leth…Kirk and McCoy rendered meat*

And-
Considering the recent events of the film, even IF Kirk, Sulu and co. could beam directly into the Khitomer conference it makes no sense they could, with phasers drawn, so easily push their way through that crowd and get to the President. Again, Kirk’s death scene would’ve been one movie earlier.

Just sayin’

209. Robman007 - July 19, 2013

203. William Bradley ..

That’s why I take most folks hatred of STID with a grain of salt. Most fans are capable only of crying, bitching and moaning at the highest of dramatic levels. Even a classic, and one of the best of the films is not below getting the wrath of overly dramatic fans. There are some that have an issue with even Wrath of Khan and would rather see films like Insurrection, a film that deserves all the critizism that it gets…

@208…not the same Klingons. Remember, TNG failed cannon big time by making Klingons these uber warriors who cherish honor (and by giving Romulans headridges and making them like TOS klingons, when THEY were honorable in TOS). These TUC Klingons are still some form of TOS Klingons, which were backstabbing and ruthless, but not the best of fighters at times. This Klingon that Kirk pulled the rug over at the prison planet was the Klingon equivelant of a not so bright mobster.

The patch was silly, but then again, ignorant Klingons.

Beaming into Khitomer with drawn phasers was silly, but it worked. I don’t think Kirk had his phaser drawn.

210. Robman007 - July 19, 2013

202. KirksLove ..besides the politically correct nature of hollyweird (casting a white to play Khan so that folks won’t cry about casting an arab as a terrorist) that was one of the smart reasons why they cast Cumberpatch as Khan. Besides being a brilliant actor, it equalled more overseas $$$$$ because of his popularity level.

211. crazydaystrom - July 19, 2013

209. Robman007-
“Beaming into Khitomer with drawn phasers was silly, but it worked. I don’t think Kirk had his phaser drawn.”

Beyond silly IMO. You are correct, Kirk was unarmed. And I love the “Kirk, Enterprise!” line to the president after tackling him. So yeah I agree it worked. But I still say, ignorant Klingons or not, spacefarers would have their act together MUCH more than those on Gorkon’s ship.

212. crazydaystrom - July 19, 2013

@Robman007
Point taken about the differences between TOS and TNG Klingons.

213. Robman007 - July 19, 2013

211. crazydaystrom

That whole scene was rather silly, including the directors edition “scooby doo” ending.

My issue with the scene was the fact that the WHOLE command staff beamed down, especially when their starship has taken critical damage. That was silly and pointless..even Scotty’s magic uniform change.

214. Robman007 - July 19, 2013

212. crazydaystrom ..yeah, TOS Klingons are NOT TNG Klingons. I’ve never understood nor liked what they did, but It worked. I did enjoy good guy Klingons.

The Romulans and headridges was the biggest and most unforgivable violation. Look at TUC, that Romulan ambassador sure was not rocking the ridges, and, despite being a conspiracy member, behaved like a TOS Romulan, not the shifty TNG version.

215. Robman007 - July 19, 2013

207. PaulB – July 18, 2013

How did TUC violate cannon? They referred to David’s death, it fit right in with the Trilogy and did a far better job of showing the aftermath of Search for Spock and it’s affect on the characters then Final Frontier did. Kirk’s hatred of Klingons was justifed. A Klingon murdered his son and was a direct cause of him losing the Enterprise, something that obviously had a profound impact on the man. He had witnessed them commit atrocity after atrocity to many innocent beings. Remember, in TOS, Klingons were ruthless, backstabbing and not above subjegating and killing whole populations who did not bow to them.

It didn’t jive with TNG Cannon? Since when did TNG try to go with established TOS cannon? They seperated Eugenics Wars and WW3 (same thing according to Spock in Space Seed), they made Klingons honorable and Romulans sneaky head ridge, shoulder pad wearing dirt bags, they turned Cochran into a man born on earth who was a alchoholic hobo…TUC followed TOS cannon very well and even gave the crew some natural character development that was not stunnted by pointless political correctness. Brilliant film.

216. PaulB - July 19, 2013

#215 – Robman007: It’s been a long time since I’ve watched TUC, so some details are fuzzy. One big, annoying place where the film ignores canon is Kirk’s line (and the reaction of the crew) upon rendezvousing with Gorkon’s ship. “We’ve never been this close.” Yeah, except for in the ST5 with Spock and Kirk on a Bird of Prey AND Klingons on the Enterprise, and ST4 with the crew flying the Klingon BoP they captured, including a live Klingon, in ST3. Of course, in TOS we have multiple examples of them being “this close” to the Klingons and their ships.

It’s not a canon violation like, say, turning Spock into an Andorian snot miner. Fair enough. But it’s just one of the many aspects of TUC that either ignored or practically parodied previous Treks.

TNG canon doesn’t matter in this context, as far as I’m concerned. TUC ignores the crew’s actual history with Klingons, which does NOT show us the level of vitriol that TUC Kirk shows. Even after the Klingons killed David, Kirk let at least one live (the one he promised he “kill you later.”) In ST3, he tossed a Kirk-smug one-liner at one of the Klingons that TUC has him condemning to death as a race.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Nor do I believe Spock would volunteer Kirk for such a mission and then act SHOCKED that Kirk resists it. If Kirk’s justification is as good as you say, why didn’t the so-logical Spock see it? Instead, he’s gobsmacked that Kirk is hateful about Klingons.

Uhura can’t even begin to translate Klingon without an old printed dictionary…not even software. (And the Klingons BELIEVE it.)

Chekov is so stupid that he (a) says the phrase “unalienable human rights” to a group that includes both Klingons AND the Vulcan he’d served with for decades, and (b) doesn’t think to LOOK DOWN at a crew member’s feet. He’s a seasoned Starfleet officer who says such a stupid, forced-into-the-character’s-mouth line JUST so the Klingons could scoff at it. It’s a stupid line that NONE of these characters would say, and NONE of them correct Chekov–they go along. It’s a violation of ALL the characters in one line of dialogue.

So many aspects that ignore established characterizations–THAT is the canon that matters most to me, the character stuff. I don’t care if the bridge of the BoP changes every we see one; I DO care that TUC does such a bad job with the characters.

TUC’s rotten characters make it far worse than STID. STID is derivative Michael Bay-style nonsense, but the characters are truer to TOS/movie characters than TUC’s were.

In my personal canon (if such a thing mattered), the TOS period would end at the end of ST4: they get the new ship and fly free. Everything after that was a mockery or a TNG film.

217. Robman007 - July 19, 2013

“Chekov is so stupid that he (a) says the phrase “unalienable human rights” to a group that includes both Klingons AND the Vulcan he’d served with for decades”

I’ll give him a pass on that one. He was drinking Romulan Ale. All of them were…not the smartest thing to do.

The crewmember deal was a dumb written scene trying to make a joke at his expense. Something that folks bust Shatner for doing in Trek 5.

Kirk’s reaction to the Klingon ship being “this close” was based on the fact that they had never been that close before without some form of violence happening before hand.

It does not excuse the movie, but I know they left out a huge amount of plot on the cutting room, such as the fact that the Klingons were engaging the Federation in some pretty ugly conflicts, including the near genocide on some local planet, which was sturring up alot of anti-Klingon resentment…added to the fact that it brought up some long buried resentment that Kirk had over his son’s death, which he never really got over…Kirk did seem to regret the “let them die” right after saying it.

That could all go a long ways to explaining what has been described as a toxic atmosphere during filming…I believe most the cast didn’t like how racist the characters were behaving.

McCoy was McCoy…I do believe that THIS version of Spock, who was really not the TOS Spock, would make the innocent mistake of thinking Kirk would be ok with being volunteered for this mission, without realizing that maybe Kirk was struggling a little with forgiveness, a major factor of the film. Scotty was Scotty, Chekov was written rather odd. He was relegated to saying silly lines, but he’s always been a victim of that. Uhura was out of character NOT knowing Klingon, something that the Abrams films have corrected rather nicely.

Kirk was my favorite written in the film. You may not agree, but I liked seeing Captain Kirk act human. He’s not a super hero, and at that time as a Trek fan, all you had on TV was perfect people in the TNG characters. No conflict and no racism. Captain Picard went through his moment of hatred with the Borg later on in the film series…but still, it was nice to see Captain Kirk as a flawed individual, someone who was still struggling with his son’s death, a decade after the fact.

The theme of the film was ultimatly forgiveness. It was nice seeing some character development from Kirk and a closure of the David plot. Treks 4 and 5 dropped the ball on that story.

218. MJ (The Original) - July 19, 2013

Agree fully that TUC is overrated — and it just looks more dated than many ST films. TMP and WOK both look fresher, for example, and they are much older Trek films.

219. PaulB - July 20, 2013

#218 MJ, I wonder why TUC looks more dated. I agree that it does, and I think it also looks kind of low budget compared to TMP and WOK.

220. Disinvited - July 20, 2013

#219. PaulB – July 20, 2013

#218. MJ (The Original) – July 19, 2013

I suspect the reason is because in the real world of 1991 they were reusing costumes from a decade ago – not to mention even older sets and fx.

To amuse myself, I often entertain the thought the real reason Capshaw was naked in the Captain’s chair was that the number of presentable uniforms had dwindled to barely (PI) enough.

And then the new FX only served to make the reused stuff feel even more dated or out of place at the very least.

Also, if I’m not mistaken, weren’t many of the film sets repurposed for use in TNG by that time? That coupled with the fact that Paramount, very aware that TUC would be the last film using these resources, probably had absolutely no motivation to cough up dough to spruce things up for a one shot deal that would adversely affect ongoing television production costs in that it would be requiring restoring them to their tv form afterwards.

221. Red Dead Ryan - July 21, 2013

Yes, many of TNG’s sets, like the corridors, ten forward, crew quarters, the conference lounge, sickbay, transporter room,etc were all redressed for the Enterprise A interiors, as well as the office of the Federation President.

Actually basically every TNG set (except for the bridge and holodeck) were used in TUC. Now, to be fair, the corridors, transporter room, and sickbay and engineering were originally built for TMP, making it a sort of back-and-forth sharing between the TOS movies and TNG.

The redress of the TNG conference lounge into the dining room was pretty bad, though. The dining room was located deep into the interior of the saucer, as we can see it get blown up when a torpedo from Chang’s Bird of Prey penetrates the hull, just below the “A” on the exterior. However, the interior set still had the windows with the starfield showing.

I can’t think of another film or tv franchise that has recycled and redressed sets to the extent that Star Trek has. And most of the time, it was pretty obvious that sets were being repurposed.

222. Phil - July 21, 2013

From Roberto Orci, at SDCC. Doesn’t really offer any info, but does suggest that Quinto was running his mouth regarding Abrams involvement…..

Speaking with Zap2It at San Diego Comic-Con while promoting Ender’s Game, screenwriter/producer Roberto Orci offers an update on the next Star Trek movie. Zachary Quinto (who plays Spock in this particular series) recently said that the threequel will begin shooting next year, with J.J. Abrams likely directing. With Abrams set to film Star Wars: Episode VII early 2014, the two films’ schedules would easily clash. While his helming Star Trek 3 is still questionable, Orci is surprised to see Quinto’s comments on the matter. “I’d love to have J.J. back. We’re still talking to Paramount about what the scheduling might be and if we can all do it together again, but yeah I read that too and I was like, ‘Whoa, does [Quinto] know something I don’t? I’d better call him.’ He owes me a call.” It was previously reported that Paramount is targeting a 2016 release date for the film, to commemorate the franchise’s 50th anniversary. Disney plans to release Star Wars: Episode VII in 2015.

Given the 2016 target date, and Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman’s other commitments, I don’t see any of these guys involved in the next movie. If they are, it’s going to be five years before the starship Enterprise hits the big screen again…

223. Hat Rick - July 21, 2013

Isn’t it about time we get some official word that the next sequel will begin filming or that at least it has been greenlighted? (Zachary Quinto’s words notwithstanding.) Anyone remember how long we had to wait after ST(2009) was released before there was word about what was eventually STID?

224. Disinvited - July 22, 2013

#221. Red Dead Ryan – July 21, 2013

I can: Irwin Allen Productions. Allen in the 1960s gave birth to extreme economizing of SF TV by heavily reusing and repurposing things sometimes in the same workday and across different shows.

225. Robman007 - July 22, 2013

221. Red Dead Ryan….

Yeah..they did use a ton of TNG sets.

The budget problems on that film were probably worse then any due to the cheap ass nature of Paramount and the fact that Trek V all but killed any chance of a budget. I remember reading in Shatner’s “Movie Memories” that each Trek film had a lower budget then the one that came before.

226. Robman007 - July 22, 2013

Anybody else see that QMx is doing a USS Vengeance model? It’s 1/1600 scale yet measures almost 36″ long…..what is with ILM? The Enterprise was re-scaled to the size of the reft, so this ship must be the size of a star destroyer or something…

227. Disinvited - July 22, 2013

#223. Hat Rick – July 21, 2013

It may have been wimpy and weak, but in a way Paramount did put out some word: They announced they renewed their deal with their Skydance partner who has several things they listed in development including the next STAR TREK movie.

The only thing that seems up in the air is Bad Robot’s involvement which they say is all “scheduling.”

Me? I suspect kicking at CBS’ merchandising which was at the foundation of Moonvies’ agreement not to strip Paramount of new Trek movie making rights, has brought all the parties that will be involved in the 50th anniversary to the negotiating table. This is likely a good thing as if properly “scheduled” the marketing opportunities could be very expertly exploited by all. And as I’ve said business is business.

However, their are some very big egos involved and it could easily fray into a mess. If THE WRAP’s questionable sources are correct, Paramount’s head, Brad Grey, very much needs to extract a pound of flesh from JJ, and I can’t imagine Moonves’ not wanting some of that action as well.

On another front, I suspect CBS’ announced good dealings with Paper Products may be good news as one huge ratings behemoth from them and Trek has a way to get CBS to consider airing a Trek series to keep them happy.

228. Curious Cadet - July 22, 2013

Well STID is down to 250 theaters, and earned under 400k this weekend, and will probably draw under 750k for the week. Most likely STID has two more weekends at most at the box office. So the domestic take will close well short of 230 mil. International is struggling too, waiting for that final shot in the arm from Japan. However, Japan only brought about 5 mil to ST09, and if it only performs as well, foreign could close around 230 mil too. Either way, I’m looking for STID to close under 470 worldwide, with foreign outpacing domestic just marginally. Soooooo close to 500 million. Who knows what would have happened if STID had arrived a year earlier as it was supposed to … The pump is primed for sure … Just hope Paramount doesn’t blow it …

229. Charles Trotter - July 22, 2013

According to Badass Digest, the next STAR TREK film may be scripted by THOR and X-MEN: FIRST CLASS scribes Ashley Miller and Zack Stentz. The report also says, however, that Orci and Kurtzman are still attached to the project as writers.

In addition, the report mentions a rumor that J.J. Abrams is “on the verge dropping out of STAR WARS.” Hmmm….

Naturally, treat all of this as rumor until confirmed by the actual people involved.

http://badassdigest.com/2013/07/22/star-trek-3-is-boldly-going-with-new-writers/

230. Phil - July 22, 2013

Yeah, more publications are jumping on this, and are very upfront that all they are doing is speculating on rumors.

Nothing to see here, people, move along….

231. Phil - July 22, 2013

@228. Every business page I’ve read pegged STID’s take at 450-460MM, and have consistently referred to it as a commercial success, at a minimum. The movie is at the end of it’s run, so it’s a bit disingenuous to refer to it as ‘struggling’….

232. MJ (The Original). - July 22, 2013

@231. Hey Phil,

Curious Cadet has been on her same soapbox bitching and moaning about the STID box office since day 1. Nothing new here.

BTW, it has yet to open in Japan. Expect another $10M to $15M from that opening — they’ve really been pushing the international marketing in Japan.

And incidentally, after it hits Japan, the box office numbers will be such that STID will be the first Trek movie in history to make more dollars overseas than in the U.S. That is a huge accomplishment, and that, in an of itself, shows how strong this franchise is now becoming.

Star Trek is finally going global in a big way. This is a huge accomplishment that all of us Trek fans should celebrate and be proud of.

233. Phil - July 22, 2013

@232. Yeah, I know, it’s almost a counterpoint reflex at this point.

Most. Successful. Trek. Movie. Ever.

Case closed.

234. Charles Trotter - July 22, 2013

Lucasfilm denies that J.J. is leaving STAR WARS:

“We [IGN] reached out to Lucasfilm for official comment. Naturally, they denied the report. ‘There is no truth to the rumor,’ a Lucasfilm rep told us. ‘JJ is having a great time working on the script and is looking forward to going into production next year.’”

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/07/22/will-jj-abrams-quit-star-wars-episode-vii

235. Thomas - July 22, 2013

Aint It Cool News is also saying this story’s bogus:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/63368

236. Curious Cadet - July 22, 2013

@231. Phil
“Every business page I’ve read pegged STID’s take at 450-460MM, and have consistently referred to it as a commercial success, at a minimum. The movie is at the end of it’s run, so it’s a bit disingenuous to refer to it as ‘struggling’…”

Why do you contend that I am doing anything more than reporting the box office for discussion? I never intimated anywhere that STID is anything less than successful. It is however going to miss Paramount’s official estimate of 490 million. So in that respect, it wasn’t as successful as Paramount hoped. However, it is absolutely a fair description that foreign is “struggling” as is domestic at the end of it’s run, that’s what films do at the end — they struggle for one more dollar as screens are cut and audiences wane. If not for the potential of Japan, it would all be over but the crumbs. Clearly anyone reading this blog are well aware that STID is the most successful box office of the entire franchise (with the arguable exception of TMP, which is best left alone at this point), so interpreting my words any other way would be pointless.

All this is to say, the film did well, but not as well as Paramount expected. No other meaning can be inferred from my posts.

237. Phil - July 23, 2013

Okay, can someone offer up a short review of the ‘after darkness’ comics, other then that Spock seems to be needing to cool his pon farr passions back in the volcano?

238. Hat Rick - July 25, 2013

You know what, guys? I’ve refrained from talking about it, since it’s not that uncommon to bitch about it whenever a couple of days go by without new stories and I don’t wanna be part of that ’cause I don’t need to be, but honestly, I think that certain people have kinda lost interest in providing news stories about Star Trek. I also think that, bizarrely, interest in Star Trek has dropped off rather steeply just a couple of months after the last movie.

Yeah, you heard me. Even with news stories about warp travel research by NASA, a real tricorder, and stuff like that in the news, interest in Star Trek seems to have tanked. Severely.

What gives?

239. Phil - July 25, 2013

@238 Matt Wright fessed up that AP has been off the reservation since mid-May. It’s also come to the attention of people that the domain expires next month, so there is speculation that the site might be going belly up.

As far as interest in Trek goes, the NASA article referenced the franchise heavily, and I suspect that at that level, Trek will continue to float around in the conscious of the public. At the studio, it’s anyone’s guess at the moment. This site, like any other, will thrive when actively worked. If it languishes, it’s to lack of management, and I can’t speak to that – efforts of guys like Matt aside it’s a shame to see it set aside in such a manner. I like the format, and would like to see it continue.

240. Disinvited - July 25, 2013

FWIW

Here’s what the NYT said about TUC’s budget:

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/14/business/taming-hollywood-s-spending-monster.html?pagewanted=print&src=pm

“A ‘STAR TREK’ SOLUTION

When Paramount Pictures first worked up a budget for “Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country,” the numbers didn’t add up. Its solution may serve as a prototype for other studio’s trying to pare costs.

The asking prices of all the stars, including William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy, and costs for the special effects and elaborate sets envisioned by the producers would have added up to $41 million. That is not an outrageous sum to make a movie generally, but it is for a “Star Trek” movie. The series has had little appeal abroad and would be unlikely to sell $100 million in tickets at the box office in the United States, the minimum needed for a $41 million film to break even.

So Paramount and the producers agreed to cut back on the special effects, use more sets from previous installments and even use old costumes. Most important, Mr. Nimoy and Mr. Shatner agreed not to take any cash up front.

Instead, the actors will receive a portion of the film’s revenues, a deal that will leave them with relatively little if the movie flops, but that could be extremely lucrative if it is a hit.

The bottom line: The film’s production budget was reduced to $27 million, and filming begins this month.” – RICHARD W. STEVENSON, April 14, 1991, NYTimes

241. Basement Blogger - July 25, 2013

I liked Star Trek Into Darkness quite a bit. I gave it an A. One thing that I did not like was the 3D. I’ve seen about thirty 3D movies since 2009 maybe more. And 3D conversions from 2D are cash grabs. Star Trek Into Darkness was a conversion.

I saw STID three times. IMAX. Regualr 3D. 2D. The 3D for both IMAX and regular 3D lacked pop. As much as J.J. Abrams tried to help the conversion process by doing 3D passes with empty sets, the film did not look special in 3D. The best 3D is shot with 3D cameras or native 3D. See films Pina and Hugo.

I have yet to recommend anyone spend extra bucks for a 3D conversion. The closest I can recommend are hybrids. Movies where the CGI are shot in 3D. See the craptastic Transformers: Dark of the Moon. And the fun but dopey Pacific Rim. Both of these movies had CGI scenes that had depth and pop. The non- native 3D shots were ordinary and made one question whether the movie was in 3D.

Let’s hope the next Star Trek movie will be shot in 3D. Or at least have the CGI scenes shot in native 3D.

242. Other Guy - July 25, 2013

27 Million was also outrageous.

243. Marja - July 25, 2013

In accordance with Matt Wright’s post over at the “whither the franchise” thread, I’m posting this here. My number/people references are related to that thread … sorry

1270, Other Guy, You are absolutely right – in fact I’d say a world developed to the point of the early 20th century, when there would be the beginnings of radio, and telegraphic-type communications would be a matter of course. What Kirk did would indeed have world-shaking consequences. Of course, some member of the crew could always appear later in the guise of a native, secret agent type, to explain away the Enterprise as a “weather ballon” [LOL] or an unusally-shaped dirigible … or that could be Starfleet damage control.
————————————————
1274 Phil, “suspension of disbelief” is fine with me, and when I see people talking about plot holes, that disbelief does get stretched to the breaking point. As I’ve said before, I’m able to “go with it” if there’s good acting involved …
————————————————-
1275 Ahmed, “Can someone please explain what was the “humanitarian mission” that Pike mentioned regarding these savages ? Why the Enterprise was sent there in the first place ? ” OMG that’s a demmed good question! I’ll have to watch that scene. Was he not referring to Spock’s volcano tinkering? That was my impression at the time of viewing …
————————————————–
1276, OtherGuy, I agree that a cut in budget for all the over-the-top fight scenes [e.g. Khan vs. Klingons] would have been a welcome development for me as a viewer. I also can’t help but think how much even a quarter of that budget would help, say, the State of California ….
But I love any CGI depiction of spaceflight within reason [ST:TMP was a huge crashing bore for the most part], “You want realism? So see a space travel movie that’s two and a half hours of watching a ship….” haha Phil, I think that’d be my assessment of TMP.

244. Disinvited - July 25, 2013

David P of THE HOT BLOG makes some interesting hay over last weekend’s numbers:

“Pacific Rim isn’t finding its legs. It may find its way to $100m domestic, but that’s no lock. And it’s not enough. The good news is that it’s already over $100m internationally with a lot of big territories to go (including the misleading China, out of which it’s hard to get your money and impossible to get 50% of your gross). Regardless, it has a long way to go before it gets a whiff of breakeven.

Speaking of survival by foreign, Man of Steel is out of the woods thanks to foreign ($350m int), World War Z still has a shot ($270m int), Star Trek Into Darkness shouldn’t lose money ($224m int), and even After Earth, which will still lose, is in a lot better shape after scoring $176m internationally. (It’s not a summer movie, but the most interesting story of the year in this regard is Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters, which grossed $56m here, but a whopping $170m internationally, making it not only profitable, but a bit of a cash cow, more profitable than any of the movies mentioned in this paragraph.)”

http://tinyurl.com/lo3u6k8

245. Marja - July 25, 2013

241 Bernie, I’ve missed you! Glad to see you making the occasional comment over here and on the main. At any rate I agree with you about the 3D – it was distracting and silly to me, at least in the non-IMAX one. [It usually looks like a pop-up book.] For some reason it worked for me in the IMAX format. But I am not a discriminating viewer [in the cinematography/special FX department] so much except for performances and the development of characters. I would rather Abrams had been allowed to film the movie the way he wanted to as a director, and LEAVE IT AT THAT. But I guess that way Paramount wouldn’t have made bongo bucks. [shrug]

216 PaulB, I agree about the racism in STVI … the attitudes of the Enterprise officers rather shocked me. At the time I was working as an International Training Officer and sensitivity to ethnic differences was mandatory. I could not believe that Starfleet officers would sit down to a conciliatory dinner and act so racially insensitive, *even* if the Klingons “started it.” Kirk’s resentment of Kruge is understandable but I did not think it was Starfleet-like or even Kirk-like to expand a personal hatred to an entire race. It seemed ungentlemanly to say the least.
——————–
217 Robman, I’m glad that this was at least *filmed* – I resent it when precious plot points are left on the cutting room floor at the expense of the characters I know and love. I hate it when they spend so much money on a movie [as in STiD] and limit it to under 2.2 hours. Man of Steel seemed endless, because of all the giant destruction sequences [which I can happily do without], and it came in at considerably over 2 hours. I’d like to have seen another five – ten minutes of STiD with an emphasis on the “science” and discussions and moral questions that make ST special.
———————
221 RedDead, I just don’t see anything wrong with re-purposing sets, but again, I’m not extremely attentive to the details of the “look” of a film … and can always retcon [who's to say the Enterprise didn't have a starfield-looking thing passing by fake windows for the look of open space, for example] … I hope to hell that ST3 reuses the fantastic costumes and the extended Enterprise sets built for STiD. It’s inexcusable to me that they would strike such sets without being able to reassemble them. Couldn’t they ship them off to Nevada and store them? Can shipping and storage possibly cost more than completely re-building and remaking every set and costume?

232 MJ, “Star Trek is finally going global in a big way. This is a huge accomplishment that all of us Trek fans should celebrate and be proud of.” I am indeed proud! I just hope that all the emphasis on international marketing, especially in the Pacific rim, you should pardon the expression, will have the unfortunate effect of reducing character moments and discussions in favor of yet more action. Apparently those audiences don’t want discussions, character moments, or romance. I don’t want Star Trek to lose its character as a “franchise” [God I hate that word!] to senseless violence and action for its own sake.

237 Phil, “Okay, can someone offer up a short review of the ‘after darkness’ comics, other then that Spock seems to be needing to cool his pon farr passions back in the volcano?”
Overall my review is “Meh.” The art is decent but suffers from”melting wax” syndrome in its portrayals of the characters [tho' everyone looks pretty close to their "actor" except Carol Marcus, who looks like a generic female]. The stories in most of the comics are a little silly, and this one is – except for some character bits and some fun references to STiD and the other nuST comics – somewhat expansive in the beginning and rushed at the end, even though they took 3 issues to tell the story instead of the usual 2. There are completely ridiculous elements such as half-naked Vulcans walking around on what appears to be lava, and these Vulcans hanging around with each other and roaring and carrying on in the throes of Pon farr, with mysteriously glowing red eyes [perhaps a shoutout to NimoySpock’s line, “my eyes are flame”? … there is a very neat handwavium type solution to the problem of these Vulcans at the end, but I’m left with the question, what happens to Spock now? Just going to Vulcan was not enough of a “cure” for Pon farr … at least not in TOS.

246. Marja - July 25, 2013

Phil, Also their version of T’Pring is even more boyish-looking than T’Pol on “Enterprise” – nothing like the surpassingly lovely Arlene Martel, and they could have drawn her in a comic, for godsakes.

247. Phil - July 25, 2013

@244. Bummer. Saw Pacific Rim last night, definitely a popcorn muncher if you like Godzilla movies….story isn’t that original, if you saw Independence Day then you’ve seen Pacific Rim.

248. Phil - July 25, 2013

Well, Wolverine has resurrected the debate about the undie shot again…

http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie-talk/awkward-underwear-scene-faceoff-famke-janssen-vs-alice-225013600.html

It figures that Alice Eve figures prominently in the discussion

249. Marja - July 26, 2013

248 Phil, It also seems to have revived the “feminist-haters-must-be-fat” ranters : (

250. Robman007 - July 26, 2013

@245….I’m pretty sure that there is ALOT of material that was cut from Into Darkness that was done so to appease the foreign market, yet would have made portions of the film more “trek” like….

and I’m pretty sure they cut “cupcakes” death scene, which was pretty gruesome in the novel.

251. Basement Blogger - July 26, 2013

@ 245

Marja,

To me IMAX 3D always looks better than regular 3D. There’s better resolution to IMAX. There was nothing in Star Trek Into Darkness’ 3D presentation that made it special. I watched the documentary Pina on Netflix and wished I had 3D TV. That’s how good the native 3D was for that film. When I buy STID 2D on Blu Ray, I’m not going to bemoan that I don’t have it on 3D.

Now, here’s something new regarding 3D Saw The Hobbit on IMAX 3D and regular 3D 48 fps. The 48 fps version was superior. That’s because of all the information being thrown at the screen makes the 3D look even better. Some complain that 48 fps is too real. But it’s the wave of the future.

252. Marja - July 26, 2013

Bernie, how you sat thru “The Hobbit” a second time is a mystery ; ) … proves to me you are a cinematography man! [I thought the plot was in.ter.min.able.

Rose, Ahmed, frankly, I am quite in favor of banning movies that show animal cruelty, torture, sexual torture and rape, 'snuff' films, graphic serial killings, pedophilia &c. I don't think there's any need for these films. I just don't. However, if the defenders of free speech feel it's absolutely necessary for human beings in the US to see these graphic depictions of violence, I say rate them NC-21. Yes, 21. I do not believe teenagers, whose brains have not yet attained full maturity, should see these horrible depictions. And nor do I believe young people need to play extremely violent first-person shooter games, also because of brain development. Movies like Hostel and Saw, and their endless sequels, are to me inexcusable entertainment, as are any films showing explicit torture of or cruelty to animals, or pedophilia. As McCoy might say, "Good God, man!" Because of all the money these films make, I don't hold out any hope, though.

How I'd love a return to the screwball comedies of the 1930s, when wit and story and character ruled the films. Tho' they could've loosened up a little on the sex : )

Again, I'm in favor of grown people loving each other on film [not just f*cking for an hour]; I read murder mysteries, and a killing that takes place off-screen, off-scene, and is regarded with horror by the investigators does not bother me as much because of the moral human element. I, for one, am sick of the Law&Order SVU episodes that dwell on violence and terror perpetrated on women and children.

Tastes are individual. Mine are informed by middle age. I can remember when movies were still rated M for Mature, and no one under 18 could see them. Period. No big loss to American society, I think.

253. Marja - July 26, 2013

Curious, I definitelly agree with your ideas for *two* interstitial movies!

We’ll have to agree to disagree on the division of screentime question.

254. Marja - July 26, 2013

BELAY MY #253 I POSTED IT IN THE WRONG THREAD : }

255. Marja - July 26, 2013

O dear me, i think i may have posted 252 on the wrong thread too. Tired beyond sense atm, sorry folks

256. MJ (The Original). - July 26, 2013

@251

The 48FPS 3D just looks ridiculous to me — like a huge LCD TV set. And I was really looking forward to it.

I think 48FPS is dead on arrival at this point. I certainly will never pay extra or drive a long distance to see 48FPS ever again.

I’ve pretty much stopped seeing 3D movies as well. I did see STID in 3D IMAZ the opening night, but then saw STID in 2D the next night at a large screen in a very modern theater, and I couldn’t tell the difference.

3D is probably here to stay, but most theaters now give you the option, because the market has peaked for 3D. A lot of us just aren’t doing it much.

257. MJ (The Original). - July 26, 2013

@252 “Rose, Ahmed, frankly, I am quite in favor of banning movies that show animal cruelty, torture, sexual torture and rape, ‘snuff’ films, graphic serial killings, pedophilia &c. I don’t think there’s any need for these films. I just don’t. However, if the defenders of free speech feel it’s absolutely necessary for human beings in the US to see these graphic depictions of violence, I say rate them NC-21. Yes, 21. I do not believe teenagers, whose brains have not yet attained full maturity, should see these horrible depictions. And nor do I believe young people need to play extremely violent first-person shooter games, also because of brain development. Movies like Hostel and Saw, and their endless sequels, are to me inexcusable entertainment, as are any films showing explicit torture of or cruelty to animals, or pedophilia. As McCoy might say, “Good God, man!”"

I agree completely!!!

258. Curious Cadet - July 27, 2013

@252. Marja,
“I do not believe teenagers, whose brains have not yet attained full maturity, should see these horrible depictions. And nor do I believe young people need to play extremely violent first-person shooter games, also because of brain development.”

I don’t know a single parent who thinks differently.

So how is this possible?

One thought occurs to me after seeing an incredulous sight at a Memorial Day event at the beach. Air Force recruiting officers were there will a full-on motion flight simulator “ride”. I can’t imagine who that was designed to target if not kids and teenagers.

The all-volunteer military benefits enormously from kid’s impressionable and underdeveloped brains, desensitizing them to violence and cruelty through movies and media, while developing their skills as first-person shooters, pilots, etc. — especially as drone warfare continues to be a front line offensive measure.

If it were strictly a matter of greedy producers looking to make money, I would think parents could find a way to keep their kids out of the theaters for such movies, and refuse to allow the video games in their homes, thus reducing the profits to be made by exploiting violence, and at a minimum encourage legislation concerning the ratings systems.

Something else is at work creating such a permissive environment that leaves parents powerless.

Where is Bob Orci when you need him to help explain conspiracy theories?

259. MJ (The Original). - July 27, 2013

@258. Your right on schedule with you usual load of horseshit, Curious Cadet — this time aimed at the U.S. Air Force.

The Air Force’s little simulator trailor aint got nothing on the military and war video games produced commercially for XB360, Playstation and PC.

You’ve said a lot of dumb things here, CC, but this is you at your worst. This is undoubtedly the dumbest post ever in the history of Trekmovie.com.

260. Dave H - July 27, 2013

Curious Cadet,

So the military should not recruit on Memorial Day? Huh? That is exactly when they should be recruiting, as we honor those who sacrificed so much.

Also, as war video games have become more realistic the past several years, you will notice that the services have had more trouble recruiting. The new, more realistic, military video games, where people die in realistic situations, are educating teenagers better on what really happens. The old games didn’t do that.

261. Basement Blogger - July 27, 2013

@ 258, 259

MJ, I don’t think Curious Cadet’s comments were dumb. I don’t necessarily agree with them. But again, they’re not dumb. He’s talking about indoctrination by the military. Is that video game produced by the military part of the process? And it’s not the “dumbest post in the history of Trekmovie.com” Come on MJ. Some of the dumbest comments come from the trolls. Of course, most of the time, they do that on purpose.

By the way, I play a lot of shooters.. My favorite at this time is the third person shooter, sci-fi Mass Effect 3. It’s smart and a great game. It’s also very violent. I don’t feel the need to go get a gun and shoot people. I play with a teenager online who I will call J. He’s a great kid and I think he’s going to be fine adult.

There’s no correlation between video games and violence. There’s been a ton of violent video games. The Call of Duty series is a huge seller. Yet, youth violent crime has gone down. Link.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/19/video-games-sandy-hook_n_2330741.html

Here’s a friendly tip. If you want to buy this site and run it, I would watch the incendiary comments. We’ve had our dust ups but we’ve found a lot of common ground. I know you’ve had your dust ups with some of the posters. You’re going to want them to visit this site and not turn them off. After all, you want the world to come here, not just the ones that agree with you.

@ 256

It’s the way of technology for it to evolve. Film is a beautiful palette for motion pictures. But it’s been around since the invention of movies. I admire J.J. Abrams love of it. Film has a warm quality to it. Maybe that’s because of the defects that are erased by video. I’ve always loved J.J.’s lighting and use of color.

Video in the past has been harsh. But recently, video is being used to make movies. Good looking video has been in the last two Star Wars movies, both shot in HD. I’m watching the making of documentary for Revenge of the Sith now. Hold on. I knew that Speilberg was an unofficial advisor but is that Lucas writing the screenplay with a pencil? And I thought I was old by still using a DOS computer.

Not to date myself, but as a teenager, I used to work as a projectionist in a movie theater. Movies were shipped in big cans and they were heavy. Now movies are shipped in hard drives.

There will be a day when you can make a 3D conversion look like it was shot in 3D. I’m sure with the evolution of computers, that’s going to happen. But it’s not today.

262. MJ (The Original). - July 27, 2013

@261. It’s funny, but Avatar was 4 years ago, but I have yet to see a 3D movie that works as well in 3D as Avatar did.

I guess that is why James Cameron is just so awesome at pushing the envelope and making it work. If anyone can make HFR work, it would be Cameron. I don’t Peter Jackson’s take on HFR works, and I will be seeing Hobbit 2 in a 2D standard presentation this November.

Regarding Curious Cadet, yes, I probably overstated my argument, but CC has been saying a lot of dumb stuff lately. CS is definitely not bringing his/her A-Game these days. And you yourself just completely rebutted CC’s violence in video game argument.

263. DiscoSpock - July 27, 2013

#261 #262

Basement Blogger, MJ,

I don’t think the Curious Cadet who has been posting recently is the real Curious Cadet. This person consistently gets their facts wrong and puts their fut in their mouth. The Curious Cadet that I remember had interesting, and thoughtful posts, with information and facts that were always sound.

264. MJ (The Original). - July 27, 2013

Disco, that would explain a lot of things. Because Curious Cadet used to have very well thought out posts here.

265. Disinvited - July 28, 2013

I wonder if the “Blue Wave” of death or something similar with regards to mammals might become the new standard of death in our lifetime?:

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2013/07/a-glowing-blue-death-wave-envelops-roundworms-before-they-expire/

266. Red Dead Ryan - July 28, 2013

I just watched “Life Of Pi” last night on Blu Ray. In 2D. However, the flying fish scene was still in 3D. The aspect ratio is 1:85 for most of the movie, but during the flying fish scene, it was in the 2:35 format which then gave the illusion of fish flying towards you. It was really effective, and you don’t need any glasses or a 3D television to see it.

267. Red Dead Ryan - July 28, 2013

#265.

That’s interesting. Although I’ve been more familiar with the Red Ring Of Death and Yellow Light Of Doom expiration with the original release models of the XBOX 360 and PS3. :-(

268. MJ (The Original). - July 28, 2013

Life of Pi was a great looking movie, but, and I can’t quite put my finger on it,, it never “fully clicked” for me.

Seems like it could have been a great film, but didn’t quite make it?

269. Red Dead Ryan - July 28, 2013

I found it to be a great movie. Really thoughtful. A nice “faith versus science” theme to it. Really makes you think.

270. Disinvited - July 28, 2013

#267. Red Dead Ryan – July 28, 2013

I’m sorry for your loss but glad you made me smile…at least I hope it was your intention to make a funny. Seems to be a lot of humor impairment going around these days.

271. MJ (The Original). - July 28, 2013

@269 I’m still pissed the fracking Tiger wouldn’t even give a look back to him. That prove’s to me though that it all really happened, because if it was a fantasy of his mind, then the tiger would have looked back.

Maybe I was in weird mood when I watched it. I think I will read the book at some point.

272. Disinvited - July 29, 2013

Moonves’ wife just announced CBS’ renewed THE DOME.

“We literally just ended up at CBS, who I think has the rights to [STAR TREK]TV, so we’ll mention, ‘hey, what’s going on with that, and then we’re talking to Paramount to see if we can make their plans of scheduling, when they want the movie to come out if that’s something that we can deliver for them, and if we have a good idea, you know, let the best idea win always.” – Roberto Orci

273. Marja - July 29, 2013

271 MJ, I was mad at Richard Parker too! “Turn around tiger! You owe him that at least!” I like that you felt that RP didn’t look back was proof Pi’s story was real …

Damn good movie though. I’ll never forget the boat floating on the sea of stars under a “sea” of stars ….

Saw Into Darkness again the other night but missed my favorite scenes [late getting to theatre after dinner with friends][but the IMAX guy let me in free : ) ], the Vulcano and the big E reveal and Captain Pike calling Spock and Kirk on the carpet …

I didn’t love it as much … I think my emotions got kinda wrung out the first 6 times.

The plot holes yawned a bit wider this time too :(
As for the score, I still like the villain theme for STiD **MUCH BETTER** than Nero’s villain theme. I do miss the Vulcan [Chinese] Erhu for Spock, though.

274. Disinvited - July 30, 2013

#272. Disinvited – July 29, 2013

That should be UNDER THE DOME.

275. vocamus.net - July 30, 2013

Terrific internet site you have got in here.

276. Curious Cadet - July 30, 2013

Interesting observation:

In less than a month, STID has dropped measurably on both Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB user ratings (it has stayed the same on Yahoo and Metacritic).

Now here’s the interesting part: On IMDB, STID added about 11,000 votes and dropped a tenth of a point. ST09 added about 7,000 votes and stayed the same. However, on RT, STID added almost 50,000 votes and dropped STID a full point. But ST09 added 128,000 votes, and dropped it 2 points!!

So the RT users have spoken in mass. ST09 is a much worse movie 4 years later than audiences who originally viewed and rated ST09 in the theaters. ST09 has dropped from a debut high of 96 — a staggering 7 points! Presumably the 128K new users who felt compelled to rate ST09 in the last month did so after seeing STID and then watching ST09 on FX or video. It could also be users changing their minds as well. Either way, ST09 is overwhelmingly the least popular of the two movies. Of course STID is sliding fast, and considering the fickle RT user base could suffer the same fate by the time the next Trek movie comes out, or perhaps it will age better once it accrues another 500K votes.

Perhaps the most interesting thing is that the total number of ST09 RT users that voted in the last month is over 60 percent of the total number of users who rated STID in total. Now that’s odd. of those 128K users, had they all seen STID and voted on it too? If so, that leaves less than 40 percent of those who voted for STID that had already seen ST09, or perhaps had never seen it. What about those other 540K voters who voted on ST09 prior to the past month, did they see STID, and why haven’t they voted on it? Strange.

RT
7/5/13 — STID 92 (158,823)
7/30/13 — STID 91(208,072)
7/5/13 — ST09 91 (593,885)
7/30/13 — ST09 89 (722,023)

IMDB
7/5/13 — STID 8.2 (120,554)
7/30/13 — STID 8.1 (131,943)
7/5/13 — ST09 8.0 (328,162)
7/5/13 — ST09 8.0 (334,884)

277. Robman007 - July 30, 2013

Marja – July 29, 2013

The volcano scene is my favorite as well. Ranks up there with the Theft of the Enterprise in the way the Enterprise was shown. Just gave me chills.

I’ve seen the film 6 times (5 less then I saw the 09 film) and I still enjoy it. I’m bothered by the plot stuff and still think they should have gone without Khan, but it’s not horrible. I’ve seen far, far worse in a Trek film with past Trek..and I’ve seen far worse plot holes and cannon violations..

although I will say this..I’m glad they went with a redesign of the Enterprise. I could only imagine the outrage of fan boys if they did to the classic Enterprise what happened to the alternate Enterprise in this film. Some would die from too much over dramatic antics..antics

278. MJ (The Original). - July 30, 2013

@276

It’s hilarious the way you make it sound like popular opinion is shitting all over the two JJ Trek movies when they both still hang at about a 90% user rating on RT.

You really should go into politics.

Freaking hilarious!

Ha! Ha! Ha! :-)) :-)) LOL LOL

279. Marja of the Khan-free Enterprise - July 30, 2013

277 Robman, I’m happy they stuck with the redesigned Enterprise too, simply because I love the new design … I think you’re right about some of the fanboys too though!

O my yes, they should have gone without the Khan bit. Cumberbatch sold the hell out of it, but it was *irrelevant* to new fans and *pointless exploitation* to us older fans. He could have been John Harrison with nearly the same origin story and certainly the same resentments about his fellow augments being held hostage …

Do you think maybe a lot of us saw the first film 10+ times because it was so new and exciting to see the reboot of our beloved Trek? And that we saw STiD with a lot of enthusiasm but it wasn’t as shiny as ST2009 so we didn’t go as many times? I’m kind of thinking that may have been the deal with me.

Or was it that, dare I mention it yet again, everyone’s p*ssed off about Khan?

280. Hat Rick - July 31, 2013

I’m starting to think that one of the reasons that ST is not breaking into Transformers or Iron Man territory box office-wise is that it is too strongly associated with the United States.

The United States is a nation in conflict with itself. Any movie that takes the view that its actions are in any way at issue — even if the movie is critical of certain American actions — will bring negative emotions to the fore on the part of many who are simply bored with the preoccupation with American ideals.

Any movie with any political overtones or undertones will probably suffer accordingly.

I don’t want to lose hope in the future of the Star Trek franchise, and therefore I would like to see some element of fantasy in the next movie to take us away from present-day concerns which have been such downers for so many people. Cinema is about escaping from reality.

Maybe revisiting Star Trek Into Darkness has become an exercise in navel-gazing for Americans which does not cast the movie in a favorable light.

I know of at least one person who seems to have lost a certain amount of interest in Star Trek recently.

281. Curious Cadet - July 31, 2013

@279. Marja of the Khan-free Enterprise,
“Do you think maybe a lot of us saw the first film 10+ times because it was so new and exciting to see the reboot of our beloved Trek? … Or was it that, dare I mention it yet again, everyone’s p*ssed off about Khan?”

Whatever the reason, you raise an interesting point, which is just how important is the pre-Abrams Star Trek fan base to the franchise?

Considering the 3D premiums available this time around, and the 40 million dollar adjusted domestic shortfall to ST09, (and no it can’t all be attributed to women being turned off by a “dark” movie as been suggested), a recurring theme I am seeing in these forums (albeit anecdotal in nature), is that many fans saw STID less than half the times they saw ST09. Based on that observation, one theory worth exploring is that the general public accounts for the bulk of the success of Star Trek, lets say that initial 200 million, but it’s the original fans and their enthusiasm that make the difference whether it reaches 300 million or 230 due to repeat viewings.

282. Marja - July 31, 2013

281 Curious,

As a ST fan, I admit I was quite put off by the dark tone of the earlier posters. The posters Paramount revealed like, a week before the US opening, would have got a lot more butts in seats. They were bright and action-oriented but Trek-ish in nature.

The emphasis on destroyed/damaged Enterprise, destruction in general, just looked like “Starfleet fail” – our guys don’t put up a good fight or CAN’T b/c they’re so outgunned. I imagine that some younger folks, like the supposed key demographic of teenaged boys, were put off by that as well.

A lot of fans were probably hoping for something a little less heartbreaking [some said they felt it was manipulative of emotion] and more philosophical, and I have a feeling that some of the deep emotions on display also put the “immunized-to-feeling” young off from repeat viewings. Dammit.

Because I do like *heartfelt* Star Trek. I hope we’re not in for a soulless, barely plotted smash-fest next time.

I mean the title “Into Darkness” was probably enough to make some folks take a deep breath before they bought tickets.

283. crazydaystrom - July 31, 2013

@282. Marja
” …I do like *heartfelt* Star Trek. I hope we’re not in for a soulless, barely plotted smash-fest next time.”
_________

Amen and amen!

284. MJ (The Original). - July 31, 2013

@282

Horrid domestic marketing — I agree!

And the Khan secrecy and JJ secrecy thing was just dumbass. They should have introduced BC as Khan at Comicon 2012 and spent an entire year building up the return of Khan.

285. Red Dead Ryan - July 31, 2013

And let us not forget the lack of merchandise. All there were was a soundtrack, a novel, and a bunch of cheapass Kre-O sets. I guess Paramount likes being cheap instead of paying a bit more to get LEGO toys made.

286. Marja I ... Am ... Not ... Khan - July 31, 2013

284, MJ, But then they couldn’t have had the Great Reveal In The Brig scene.

“I … am … Khan”

Yeah, like we didn’t figure that out already, JJ. Or should I say Daemon.

The name was as meaningless to NuKirk and crew as it was to 90% of the audience
[rolls eyes]

287. crazydaystrom - July 31, 2013

@285. Red Dead Ryan –
“And let us not forget the lack of merchandise.”
_________

Yeah I mourned the lack of non-fiction literature for Star Trek ’09 like the good old ‘Making of’ books and had hoped there would be some for STID. Ha! It’s just as well. I wouldn’t have bought anything associated with that disappointment of a Trek film anyway. So I guess to that extent they had this Trek fan figured out.

288. Robman007 - August 1, 2013

“Do you think maybe a lot of us saw the first film 10+ times because it was so new and exciting to see the reboot of our beloved Trek? And that we saw STiD with a lot of enthusiasm but it wasn’t as shiny as ST2009 so we didn’t go as many times? I’m kind of thinking that may have been the deal with me.

Or was it that, dare I mention it yet again, everyone’s p*ssed off about Khan?”

Actually, the reason I didn’t see this film 10+ times was because I didn’t have the money that I did in 2009. That’s what happens when 20% of it is taken from ya each paycheck.

I just think you have a core of spoiled assed fans who made up their minds that the film was a rehash of Wrath and just didn’t care…that and the US marketing sucked. I thought Cumberpatch was a brilliant Khan and did Montalban great honor with his performance.

I didn’t care one bit about his nationality. I would have rather seen Cumberpatch play an amazing Khan then some look alike stink the screen up with a subpar performance.

289. Robman007 - August 1, 2013

@287….”disappointment of a Trek film anyway”…I hate to see what folks think of the entire TNG run of films. Disappointment would be a nice thing to say. While ID was not what folks wanted, it was far from a sad sack of a film that the TNG films were

290. Marja - August 1, 2013

280 Hat Rick – “The United States is a nation in conflict with itself. Any movie that takes the view that its actions are in any way at issue — even if the movie is critical of certain American actions — will bring negative emotions to the fore on the part of many who are simply bored with the preoccupation with American ideals. ”

Not sure how I missed this excellent point of yours. Though many other countries are in equal conflict with their leadership, or the leadership in conflict with one another, your point about the navel-gazing US is well taken – I think Europeans, Kiwis and Ozzies are probably all fed up with us! Some may see parallels to their own governments though.

I wonder how many folk around the world attend movies simply to be entertained with little to no thinking or real-world politik involved. [Perhaps the success of Marvel movies speaks to this.]

291. MJ (The Original). - August 1, 2013

@289 “I hate to see what folks think of the entire TNG run of films. Disappointment would be a nice thing to say. While ID was not what folks wanted, it was far from a sad sack of a film that the TNG films were.”

The NG films are so bad, you can now all of them in on collection — IN BLU-Ray — for only about $20. That’s like the online equivalent of the Wamart 5.99 Blu-ray bin.

How ebarassing for TNG fans. It doesn’t get much worse than this.

292. PaulB - August 2, 2013

All TNG movies on Blu-Ray for $20? Still too expensive.

293. Basement Blogger - August 4, 2013

@ 291

MJ, as a TNG fan, I’m not “embarrased” (your term) that there’s a TNG blu-ray collection for twenty nine bucks. You can still buy the worst of the series , “Insurrection” by itself for eighteen bucks. Amazon prices. I’m looking at the positive. It’s a price that new TNG fans who have not seen the TNG movies can afford. .

I’m a James Bond fan. I’m not “embarrassed” that Bond DVDs are in the five dollar bin. I’m elated. I can get the fabulous Lowry remastered DVDs which look just as good as Blu-Rays for a very, very low price. Was not a fan of Moonraker but bought it for five bucks anyway. I like it a little better after seeing it. Just because a DVD series has been heavily discounted doesn’t mean the movies were bombs.

294. Hat Rick - August 5, 2013

@Marja (290), thanks for the interesting perspective. I haven’t checked this thread in several days and didn’t read your response until just now.

The trends are not favorable for the philosophies many Americans hold dear, and there is a lot of uncertainty ahead. We may be looking for an affirmation that doesn’t exist, and where it does not, then total escape is the clear alternative.

Tony Stark, as depicted in the Iron Man and Avengers series of movies, is something of a billionaire egotist and outlaw. Unlike Bruce Wayne, he makes no secret of his playboy ways, and, although I haven’t seen Iron Man III, while it is generally true that he has something of a comeuppance from which he learns, he remains something of the gentlemanly rogue. There is a bit of the rebellious, rock-and-roll spirit in Tony Stark and the IM movies that we don’t really see in any of the Star Trek movies. The current generation may, in its tastes, desire a much more anarchist point of view than we’ve seen in the universe of Trek, with its Federation and Starfleet and various rules and regulations.

Fast and Furious is another set of films that shows an abundance of a generally unruly subculture.

This must be the tenor of the times.

295. Curious Cadet - August 5, 2013

@294. Hat Rick,
“The current generation may, in its tastes, desire a much more anarchist point of view than we’ve seen in the universe of Trek, with its Federation and Starfleet and various rules and regulations.”

A really well stated observation.

Star Wars likewise had that feeling — the little guy turning the structured military culture on its ear. Han Solo is very Tony Stark like. Perhaps this is what Abrams was trying to do with Kirk. Unlike the other films however, the bulk of STID takes place withing the military hierarchy around military themes. Tenor of the times or not, your observation suggests the franchise would best be served by removing the stories from strict ordered military trappings as much as possible, which sis something TOS seemed to do quite a lot. It certainly helps to get the Enterprise far out into uncharted space on it’s own, where Kirk can make up his own rules as the circumstances require.

296. Robman007 - August 5, 2013

Did anybody happen to read the interview with Karl Urban on IGN.com? It was about his show Almost Human, but he mentioned that for Star Trek 3, he wanted to see something original and not do another revenge film. He thought Into Darkness had too much nods to the past Trek. Wants something Star Trek like for the third movie…also he refuses to be a part of Star Wars 7. HAHA!

297. Phil - August 5, 2013

Interesting. It looks like Trek added screens this weekend.

298. Phil - August 5, 2013

Getting caught up – I noticed Trek got a lot of credit for a big boost in earnings at Viacom. Anyone care to speculate on the over/under now for when the next movie will be announced?

299. Disinvited - August 5, 2013

#298. Phil – August 5, 2013

I just wish they’d [Finke's DEADLINE has a reputation as a key Paramount PR arm.] stick with one story. Now it’s oversupply of tentpoles “hurt” profitability but not “significant” profitability:

http://www.deadline.com/2013/08/viacom-ceo-philippe-dauman-oversupply-tentpole-films-profits/

#297. Phil – August 5, 2013

Well, according to Dauman the profits that were attacked were the ones from longer runs, so it makes sense that if they could find screens to add that would extend a run, they would.

300. Disinvited - August 5, 2013

#297. Phil – August 5, 2013

Yep adding runs seems to be the plan:

http://www.firstshowing.net/2013/paramount-is-giving-world-war-z-a-late-one-week-only-imax-run/

301. Hat Rick - August 6, 2013

@Curious Cadet (295), thanks for the comments. Abrams did a very creditable job with STID and I continue to feel that it’s one of science fiction’s best movies ever, but it’s not possible to turn things around too radically when you’re working with a venerable enterprise such as Star Trek. And, we did have an example of a lone-wolf type story premise that didn’t work out as well as some expected — the TV show, Star Trek: Voyager, which, lest we forget, was originally based on the need for Starfleet personnel and certain of the Maquis to work together.

With the dearth of news about the next sequel, I’m turning some of my attention to some of the more recent ST TV productions and catching up with what’s happened to the actors associated with them. Voyager has had some really great contributors to the cons and some of them seem very happy with their post-Trek lives. Others, including, for example, Jennifer Lien, appear to have left show business, to my surprise. As with all careers in general, the recent accomplishments of Trek stars have ranged from stellar (Patrick Stewart) or solid (William Shatner) to nonexistent (Ms. Lien). As for the shows themselves, I think that they still hold up well. Star Trek: Enterprise and Star Trek: Voyager are the only Trek series in which there are a number of episodes I have still never seen, so there are still prospects for surprises and “new” Trek for me yet, speaking personally.

More relevantly, one month or so before the release of ST (2009), there was already word of a development deal for the second sequel (which turned out to be STID). For various reasons, despite the fact that STID has made far more than ST (2009) in terms of worldwide gross, there is still no official word of development of ST 3. The fact that Abrams is attached to Star Wars may be a reason.

302. Hat Rick - August 6, 2013

I’m going to throw an idea out there that may or may not work.

If you take a look at some of the more successful tentpoles this year (excluding from this discussion STID), they all seem to have one common feature: They have some contact with present-day reality. Iron Man, Man of Steel, Fast and Furious — these all take place today (whether in an alternate universe or otherwise). So it seems that the emphasis on the future only, with no action taking place in the present-day, may be something that sets Trek apart.

Now, one of the more successful Trek features also featured the present-day — of course, I’m speaking of Star Trek: The Voyage Home.

At the risk of accusations that we would yet another time be “ripping off” ideas from Trek’s past, it may be that the time is right for a Trek story based on contemporary times, set in substantial part in the early 21st Century (i.e., in 2013 or 2014, on Earth). This would have the added benefit of reducing the need to build futuristic sets, for which real-world locations could be a substitute.

None of this is very original, but on the other hand, it isn’t originality that necessarily brings in the bucks.

Further, we can think of twists that could make such a well-worn premise fun and interesting. Bringing in Gary Seven, who was the central character in one of the most unusual TOS stories, as a secret agent, battling elements of Section 31, would bring a sense of James Bond to the Trek franchise. And since Chris Pine is already associated with a major spy series of movies (courtesy of Tom Clancy), there might be a bit of synergy that way.

The crew of the Enterprise might find themselves stranded on a strange planet that was exactly like Earth of 2014, for example. And who should enter the picture but an old and wizened Gary Seven (played by a major star, possibly Harrison Ford).

Just a few thoughts.

303. Marja - August 6, 2013

295, Curious, Yeah, but: STiD was very respectful of well-meaning military folk, I thought. It just showed how quickly things can go wrong when well-meaning folk are sold a bill of goods by those with ill-founded intentions.
In TOS, as you point out, Kirk often had to make things up on the fly … but he always had to file a log entry. He also [as a military man with loyalty to his comrades] had to battle with bureaucrats, a good theme, given today’s do-nothing Congress.

297 Phil, STiD would’ve had a hella lot more runs if it had opened in mid-April instead of mid-May, eh? A big “duh!” from Paramount!

299 Disinvited, “Now it’s oversupply of tentpoles “hurt” profitability but not “significant” profitability” … and wasn’t this what Spielberg, Et. Al. are concerned about?
Not only is there an oversupply, reinforcing the truth that there is quite a “sameness” to this type of film, but there is [at least on my part] a HUGE boredom factor.
Studios: more CGI is not the answer; more STORY is the answer.. Quit copying each other and ramping up the nonsense and get back to the best things about films: story, drama, and characters experiencing grown-up dilemmas.

302 HatRick, I def like the Harrison Ford as Gary Seven idea, especially if Seven still has Isis as his aide! Maybe for a fourth film if there is to be one … but it should be set on an alien-feeling planet. The “synergy” from Pine’s Tom Clancy franchise might be fun especially b/c Harrison Ford twice played the Jack Ryan character : )
Re “the added benefit of reducing the need to build futuristic sets”: I thought much of ST 2009 and STiD were shot on location, with CGI additions for a futuristic look [tho they did quite a lot of CGI for this one]. Location shooting is one of JJ’s favorite “trademark” things to do [witness Engineering in ST09 and the shuttlecraft hangar on Earth, shot in an old aircraft-building facility in Long Beach, near L.A.]. It was features like the Trash Barge that cost bongo bucks.

304. Hat Rick - August 6, 2013

Great comments, Marja, about Harrison Ford. I like that you associated him with the Jack Ryan character as well. It would be as if two James Bond actors featured in the same movie.

I remember that one of the most impressive things about the Bond movies has been its lush, almost travelogue-like landscapes. I think that a sense of a wider setting based on real locations really does help some movies. This is despite the fact that many important scenes do take place on soundstages in that franchise.

305. Farmer - August 13, 2013

I love that Khan is back. I made this video of Kirk and Khan as roommates a few months before Darkness came out: https://vimeo.com/63130709

306. Phil - August 14, 2013

Hey! JJ was at the Tokyo premier of STID!!

307. crazydaystrom - August 14, 2013

306. Phil -
“Hey! JJ was at the Tokyo premier of STID!!”
__________

The cynic in me wonders if his family was there with him and it was mostly their August vay-cay.

*sigh*

If so I hope they had a great time. And I hope Star Wars ep. VII is good.

308. Hat Rick - August 17, 2013

I can’t believe that the news is full of stories saying that STID is the worst Trek movie ever, as voted on by Trek fans. That’s quite a shocking development to me.

I believe that STID is a wonderful Trek movie on many, many levels and it may be that those fans are focused simply on certain aspects of it which are less stellar than others.

For example, STID doesn’t have the sheer grandeur of Star Trek: The Motion Picture (1979). Nevertheless, by the same token, STTMP doesn’t have the action appeal of STID. It’s not quite cricket, as they say, to cherry-pick simply a few measures by which STID doesn’t seem to excel and use those as yardsticks by which to rate it.

To take another example, ST: The Voyage Home is much funnier than STID. However, STID still outclasses STTVH by a vast margin in terms of overall audience appeal.

309. Basement Blogger - August 17, 2013

My fellow Trekkers, stop believing the Las Vegas Star Trek movie poll. Time to debunk this story once and for all. Here are the details of the poll. The source is from TrekWeb. David Faraci, a blogger, wrote the story for Bad Ass Digest. He attended a forum at the Vegas convention called One Trek Mind. According to him about one hundred people attended the forum. Oh and by the way, he hates STID. Link.

So there you have it. A majority of one hundred Trekkers who attended a forum hated the movie. The source for the story hates STID. There are no numbers to the poll. And it included Galaxy Quest which is not a Star Trek movie.

Here are the facts. STID is the highest grossing movie of the franchise. (Wikipedia) The film has general critical praise. Rotten Tomatoes rates it at 87 percent which is fresh. Metacritic rates it at 72 percent.

Blloger who hates STID did the story about the majority of one hundred Trekkers at a forum saying STID is the worst.

http://badassdigest.com/2013/08/11/the-star-trek-movies-as-ranked-by-star-trek-con-goers/

310. Marja - August 17, 2013

309 Bernie Blogger, Great points all.

And folks, pay no attention to copycat articles on various “news” sites like The Guardian and The Independent, and Huffington Post [the latter of which is a “news” aggregator and simply uses “cut and paste” as it were to put articles up on its site.

Many of these “reports” simply got the news of the 100 Trekkies from the con poll from Badass Digest, reported by an Abrams hater.

BB, we’ll see if Ahmed responds to me with extreme prejudice after I cited these facts back to him from his own links :D

311. Hat Rick - August 17, 2013

Thanks for your response, Basement Blogger. Those are all good points. Nice messages as well, Marja.

Also, I’m glad there’s life left in this thread yet. :-)

312. Basement Blogger - August 18, 2013

Thanks to Spockchick over at Chat for this. Here’s a teaser for Sherlock. Benedict Cumberbatch is magnetic in the role. I watch Sherlock on Netflix. Great stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llGXWICGsD4&feature=youtu.be

313. Phil - August 19, 2013

Interesting. An article handicapping Oscar nominees pick 12 Years a Slave for consideration. Interesting in so much that among those in what is referred to as an ‘A” list cast is Treks very own Benedict Cumberbatch.

314. Basement Blogger - August 19, 2013

Some details on STID’s Blu Ray behind the scenes features.

http://music.yahoo.com/news/zachary-quinto-goes-behind-scenes-star-trek-darkness-133049058-rolling-stone.html

315. Marja - August 19, 2013

313, Phil, BC’s also in the Meryl Streep-Julia Roberts movie coming out soon in a small romantic role and darn, I can’t remember the name at the mo’ – it looks to be hilarious, about a Southern family in denial. If I could change places with anyone, it’d by Meryl Streep, what a great actress with such a variety of roles! Or wait, Cate Blancett, she’s younger :)

Did anyone else notice the BC tribute Giacchino worked into the Khan theme? A touch of that zither, is that the name of the instrument so prominently featured in “Sherlock’s” theme? I really liked it.

316. Basement Blogger - August 19, 2013

At the Las Vegas Star Trek convention, Alice Eve, who played Carol Marcus, made an appearance. A fan asked here about the underwear scene in Star Trek Into Darkness. First she noted the Chris Pine was shirtless probably referring to the scene where Pine is in bed with two feline aliens. Here’s her comment on the underwear scene.

“I didn’t know it would cause such a ruckus. I didn’t feel exploited. She’s very smart and she’s very fit. Heaven forbid if she has it all.”

http://www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-las-vegas-2013-day-2-recap

317. Phil - August 19, 2013

@316. Get a clue. The objection was to the obvious use of this peep show scene in a work environment, that it was gratuitous on the whole. Except for the oblivious among us, the adventures of Mayor Bob down in San Diego is the embodiment of why that behavior is criminal. To a person, those who objected would not have cared if she would have disrobed in a setting more appropriate to building a relationship between the two.

If Ms. Eve doesn’t understand that, she’s either towing the company lie, or needs to spend an afternoon with Mayor Grab-@$$. Your continued defense of this is just boorish now, and a bit tone deaf.

318. Basement Blogger - August 19, 2013

@ 317

First, I just posted a story on a controversy with STID. I made no commentary on that post. I do write about this stuff on my blog, but it’s my blog. Anyway, if you don’t like anything I write , don’t read it. Maybe your bile will still in your body. Second, this has absolutely nothing to do with Mayor Filner. If you read anything I’ve written I have never defended sexual harassment. You should get the clue, why don’t you learn how to read. There’s nothing in the post that says anything about Mayor Filner. This is what you do. You make up ideas and thoughts that a poster doesn’t have and attack them for it. It ‘s what I call a lying troll. If you don’t like what I say, don’t read it. Otherwise until the moderator tells me to stop, I’ll continue to speak my mind. And God help me to stop feeding the troll in you.

319. Basement Blogger - August 20, 2013

@ 317

Phil,

And before I forget, wishing that Alice Eve suffer sexual harassment because she doesn’t agree with you is reprehensible and despicable.

320. Phil - August 20, 2013

@319. Bet it took you all night to think up that zinger, then haul it off to another thread because this one is slow. Stay classy, Bernie…

321. Phil - August 20, 2013

@315. I’m showing my age, but one of my favorite John Wayne movies is The Quiet Man. Wayne and O’Hara seemed to work real well together, something that seems a bit more forced in an era where intimacy is solely portrayed as how fast the clothes come off. It’s a shame they only made a few movies together.

322. Basement Blogger - August 20, 2013

@ 320

No it didn’t take me all night, I wrote on the other thread after I responded to you here because you’re taking your act to other people which you have done to other people like Keachick, Mr. Phil. On other thread I was warning MJ about you. So keep making stuff up. There will be others who will out you. And by the way, I was showing him what kind of person you are not because this thread is slow. Your comments speak for themselves, when Alice Eve disagreed with your view you wish her to be sexually harassed. @ 317 Despicable.

And you also demonstrate the height of hypocrisy. You bash me for just posting the news without commentary and yet you post some news commentary dealing with the same issue. @ 248. But I’m guessing because the writer had your views,, it’s okay.

323. ObsessiveStarTrekFan - August 20, 2013

If anyone is interested, and enjoys the honest trailers clips, the STID one is available
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B22Uy7SBe4

324. Phil - August 20, 2013

@322. Yeah, you took it over there for that reason. Not enough eyes, and I’m sure MJ appreciated the PSA.

Cheers

325. Basement Blogger - August 20, 2013

@ 324

Believe what you want. Mr. Phil. Your incendiary and despicable comments @ 317 are there for everyone to see.

326. Basement Blogger - August 20, 2013

@ 323

Obsessive, that was funny.

327. Marja - August 21, 2013

323 Obsessive, thanks for posting it by the way. I misstated their name in my post on the big long thread.

Bernie, Phil, OK at the risk of being my chided for being a PC police, can you guys cool it please? We understand the insults and the damage done, and you’re starting to repeat yourselves.

Please don’t make us think you’re both being unreasonable by continuing your clashes. You probably won’t succeed in convincing people who’ve already sided with either POV, and I’m demmed sure you won’t convince each other. Arguments seen, noted, and found despicable or reasonable depending on the POV. For god’s sake spare us. Personally I really want to continue respecting and liking you guys. Please have a chocolate so you can take a break from typing.

328. Basement Blogger - August 21, 2013

@ 327

Marja, it’s clear that I got attacked. @ 317. So, I will defend.

329. Marja - August 21, 2013

Bernie, I don’t always approve of the way Phil’s spoken to Keachick either. But I guess if you guys want to go on warring, I can’t stop you … have fun

330. Basement Blogger - August 21, 2013

Simon Pegg tells Star Trek Into Darkness haters,

“Bleep” you.

Link.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/21/simon-pegg-the-worlds-end_n_3787056.html

331. MJ (The Original). - August 21, 2013

Phil, Basement Blogger,

Could it be that you are both over-reacting a bit too much here to each other’s posts?

Just saying….

332. Basement Blogger - August 21, 2013

@ 331

MJ,

I’m not. Telling me to “Get a clue…. ” calling me “boorish and tone deaf” is hardly what I call neutral. Previously calling me a sexist is not neutral. And saying Alice Eve should be sexually harassed because she doesn’t agree with him is not nice or neutral. Those last two terms are not my choice to descibe @ 317. By the way, read post 316. All I did was post Ms. Eve’s statements. And we get Phil’s not so nice post. Here are two things we do know that is not my interpretation.

1. Phil admits he engages in trolling.
2. His friend Marja describes him as “quite acerbic.” That’s no surprise to any neutral observer.

If you look at 330, I’ve moved on to another topic regarding STID. Simon Pegg’s interview. But if there’s something I disagree with, I’ll respond. When I’m attacked I will defend. We’ve had strong arguments with William Bradley. See multiple posts above. This is no different. That’s something you understand because you engage in strong debates on this site all the time.

333. Phil - August 22, 2013

@331. Lil’ blogger sees himself on some grand crusade. The fact that he’s been reduced to pulling single words and sentences out of context, and burying his bulls**t in a blizzard of protests answers your question. The guy is butt-hurt because several people, myself among them, disagreed with his rather full throated defense of the undie shot. Like I said, if that makes me a troll, then so be it. I’m laughing, though because it seems the legitimate debate on the scene seems to have made Hollywood aware that the gratuitous shots are inappropriate (no, I don’t expect overnight change, I’m sure the debate will rage again when 50 Shades hits the big screen), I’ll also say I’m pleased to see Bernie referring to the internment camps properly now, as he wasn’t earlier. If he want’s to work himself up an ulcer, that’s his issue, not mine. As far as I’m concerned, it’s mission accomplished…..but you know as well as I I’m not the only one who calls pseudo-intellectual bulls**t when it’s seen. I’ll try to be a bit more polite about it to avoid offending the thin skinned.

Cheers….

334. Basement Blogger - August 22, 2013

@ 333

Mr. Phil,

Not on a crusade. All I did was post Alice Eve’s comments. My opinion was stated long ago in a thread far, far away. . But good luck on your crusade to making the world safe from naughty pictures. And thank you for admitting you engage in trolling. Cheers.

335. Phil - August 22, 2013

@334. That explains a lot, numerous people told you context was key, and all you heard was naughty pictures. Let me help…blah blah blah blah naughty pictures blah blah blah blah troll.

There, understand now? God, you are a real life version of a Far Side comic…feel free to cut and paste the last word in somewhere.

336. Basement Blogger - August 22, 2013

@ 335

Phil,

I didn’t know the human body could have so much bile. Much gratitude for admitting that you engage in trolling.

337. MJ (The Original). - August 22, 2013

@335

See guys — you are just starting to get to like each other!

:-)) LOL

338. Basement Blogger - August 22, 2013

Benedict Cumberbatch is having quite a year. Here are two upcoming projeccts. He’ll be playing Julian Assange in “The Fifth Estate” and is in “12 Years a Slave.” The latter movie also stars Alfre Woodward. (Star Trek; First Contact) Here’s the trailer for 12 Years a Slave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUQNjfhlREk

Oops forgot. Sherlock returns in 2014. Love the cliffhanger for Sherlock in which we don’t worry about the fate of the hero but how he returns. Brilliant,

339. Marja - August 22, 2013

Cumby is also in an upcoming Meryl Streep/Julia Roberts comedy [not really sure if it's pure comedy or dramedy] about a family in the South whose mom is in denial about their father. Looks like La Streep is doing a great comic performance. Cumby plays a man in love! Saw the preview in theatre last weekend and look forward to it!

“12 Years” looks to be quite good, and how nice to see Alfre Woodard again!

Wish I could see “The Fifth Estate” – I had hoped it was coming to theatres but it looks like a Premium channel production [HBO?] : (

Assange is a fascinating character with many shades. Egotistical, a sexual harasser, advocate for freedom of information. I imagine Cumby really delighted in portraying him.

340. Basement Blogger - August 22, 2013

@ 339

I hope BC’s Assange is a complicated character because in real life, he is. Villain. Maybe. Hero. Maybe. He’s like Edward Snowden. Don’t like what either of them did but…. they raise questions about privacy and government lies. It’s complicated.

341. MJ (The Original). - August 22, 2013

Cumby was good in Star Trek, and good in Sherlock. But nevertheless, I am not as impressed with him as others seems to be. He is a B+ talent, but I am not ready to say A-lister with him just yet. He is equivalent to Chris Pine — A list POTENTIAL, but not quite there yet.

342. Phil - August 23, 2013

Not sure I’d be comparing CP to BC at this point – BC’s resume in the last twelve months looks a hellva lot better the CP’s over the last sixty. BC is also a draw overseas, something that’s not to be underestimated. It’s just a question of degrees at this point, CP still at B- or B, BC at B+ or A-…..I’ll stand by my contention, though, that if Jack Ryan is anything less then a runaway hit that Pine will end up being considered character actor material. Good enough to keep working, but not headliner material.

343. MJ (The Original). - August 23, 2013

@342. Yea, but in terms of leading major movie roles, the score is Chris Pine 2, BC 0.5.

I agree that Jack Ryan will resolve this for Pine, one way or another.

I just had heard all this hype about how great BC was going to be in STID, and yet I was left with him doing a decent credible role as Harrison/Khan, but it didn’t really blow me away the way that I was expecting.

344. ME - August 24, 2013

Have any of you heard of a scene shot for stid that involved celebrity lookalikes of johnny depp and robert deniro? A friend said there was one shot and he was in it but i can find no mention of it anywhere.

345. Basement Blogger - August 24, 2013

@ 344

I never hear of that.

346. Marja - August 24, 2013

344 ME If it’s not the Conference scene, the Section 31 scene, the street scene or a crowded scene on the Enterprise IDK where they’d put it …

347. ME - August 24, 2013

Supposedly it was some kind of awards thing. Since the characters look as they do now and the movie takes place way in the future, i think someone is not telling the truth. I wish there was a way i could find the definitive truth

348. Phil - August 25, 2013

@347. Probably yet another story started by some hack blogger looking to boost his/her readership. The internet is awash in fake reporters reporting fake news….

349. Marja, in the land of Star Trek dreams - August 25, 2013

347 ME, you mean in STiD, or in ST2009? Kirk got an award in a ceremony at the end of 2009. In the ceremony at the end of STiD the faces of the Bridge crew are only visible for a second, and I don’t remember any specific faces, but maybe the officers on the dais with Kirk?

And Phil at 348 has a very good point about internet “news”! Witness the recent brouhahah over the Las Vegas “poll”. Jiminy.

350. Curious Cadet - August 26, 2013

So Japan has earned 3 million more in its opening weekend than ST09. Assuming it maintains that 4x increase through its run, it should add about 10-15 million more to the total, closing around 470-75, which is pretty close to Paramount’s original estimate of 490.

Of course it’s all but done in the US, and won’t make it to 230 million. It will be interesting to see if the 210 screens it’s still playing on will drop for Labor Day, and how long it will stay on screens into September, especially with it coming out on home video in a few weeks.

And another milestone — for the first time in history a Star Trek movie’s foreign box office has outgrossed the US Boxoffice, thanks to Japan.

“A #1 opening in Japan of $4.3 million lifted the overseas total of Star Trek Into Darkness to $231.3 million, passing the $227.3 million that the sci-fi sequel has grossed in North America. Star Trek Into Darkness has grossed a total of $458.6 million worldwide.”

351. Basement Blogger - August 26, 2013

@ 350

Curious Cadet says,

“Of course it’s all but done in the US, and won’t make it to 230 million. It will be interesting to see if the 210 screens it’s still playing on will drop for Labor Day, and how long it will stay on screens into September, especially with it coming out on home video in a few weeks.”

CC, could you cite your sources. Where does that number of 210 screens that STID is still playing on coming from? And frankly after three months, I’m surprised it’s playing on that many theaters. I believe that’s a good thing. Most movies are long gone after three months.

352. Curious cadet - August 26, 2013

@351 Basement Blogger,

The same sources everyone on this forum has been using since day one — boxofficemojo

Of course it is a good thing that STID is playing on 210 screens. But it isn’t most movies, it’s Star Trek. Compared to ST09, which in week 14 was playing on 375 domestic screens, and played for a total of 21 weeks before closing, STID is running out of steam much faster, just as it has underperformed during its entire run — which is why I posed the questions I did.

353. Basement Blogger - August 26, 2013

@ 352

Sorry, that’s not an answer. Sources for your screen numbers and the recent number you just posted for 352. I mean you can cite the source, can”t you? Because to be frank, we’ve been through your numbers before and it seems many times you grab them out of thin air.

354. Basement Blogger - August 26, 2013

XBOX Live is showing for free, the first nine minutes of Star Trek Into Darkness. The point is to get you to buy the digital version of the movie. In my memory, I can’t remember XBOX doing something like this. If any of you have other examples, please correct me.

355. Marja - August 27, 2013

O Lord have mercy

another discussion of Box Office #$

: p

C ya later ; )

356. Curious Cadet - August 27, 2013

@355 Marja,

Sorry ;-)

But I think it’s a good thing to see Japan primed to boost Star Trek’s box office take, and talk about it. It’s been greatly anticipated for a couple of months now, and it looks like the junket paid off.

But not to worry — with STID’s screens down from 210 to 144 over the weekend, which is where ST09 was at the very end of its run, there’s not a lot of box office news left to report.

But just think … On September 10th you get to read all about the BluRay/DVD sales! LOL

357. Phil - August 27, 2013

Well, at this point I’d be less interested in the DVD/BlueRay info (I guess downloads are available now), then I am an official announcement being made. If the best we are going to get is O & K being asked a sandwich a script into their busy schedule somewhere, it’s going to be a while before we see another movie.

Of course, now that I’ve said that, they will make an announcement this afternoon. Now you know why I’m jumpy about talking about the Dodgers/Braves being in the NLCS…..

358. Curious Cadet - August 27, 2013

@357. Phil,
“I guess downloads are available now”

I see that, right there on Amazon for 14 bucks!

Not to unfairly stereotype a country, but the Japanese are known for being technologically savvy, so I’m not sure what the strategy is releasing the downloads the same week as the movie premieres in Japan. While I’m sure the downloads aren’t available in Japan, and the DVDs set to be released in two weeks won’t likely be available in the region — these things have a way of easily getting where they shouldn’t. Seems like that might might affect the Japanese box office … guess we’ll see.

Actually, I’m not sure what the strategy is in releasing the movie this quickly at all. Will this motivate sales now over a Fall release? Or just keep and uninterrupted flow of income coming in?

359. Phil - August 27, 2013

^^^ Nah, foreign release dates have been scattered over the last couple of months, and bootleg stuff started showing up on YouTube shortly after the European releases, so the Japanese audience is thoroughly spoiled by now. The Chinese, on the other hand, will steal anything not nailed down…even then, bootlegged DVD/Blu-ray probably won’t cut into profits that much. The mixed reviews will probably take care of that.

360. Phil - August 28, 2013

Maybe JJ wasn’t such a bad choice to direct Ep. VII after all….

http://www.filmthreat.com/features/172/

361. Basement Blogger - August 28, 2013

The first ten minutes of Star Trek Into Darkness is not just available for free on XBOX Live, it’s also available for free for Sky Store customers. Sky Store is a British company.

http://skymovies.sky.com/beam-up-all-trekkie-titles-as-star-trek-into-darkness-hits-sky-store

362. Basement Blogger - September 1, 2013

While it was good summer for Hollywood in terms of box office, it was not so good for individual blockbusters. And the exception to this summer’s
disappointing blockbusters is the highest grossing Star Trek movie, Star Trek Into Darkness.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/02/business/media/huge-summer-for-hollywood-but-with-few-true-blockbusters.html?partner=yahoofinance&_r=0

363. Basement Blogger - September 2, 2013

The results are in. Star Trek Into Darkness is the best reviewed movie of the summer blockbusters according Rotten Tomatoes. it’s number seven of all the summer movies.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/guides/summer-movie-scorecard-2013/

364. Curious Cadet - September 3, 2013

Here’s something interesting –

STID was increased from 144 screens to 958 screens and earned over a million dollars at the box office over the 4 day weekend.

Now how often does that happen?

Sadly, according to BOM, the movie only took in three million dollars internationally last week, so Japan is definitely not going to add to the bottom line as anticipated (this assumes BOM is reporting Japan’s current numbers in the totals but hasn’t yet updated the individual entry as usual).

365. Curious Cadet - September 3, 2013

@362 Basement Blogger,
“And the exception to this summer’s
disappointing blockbusters is the highest grossing Star Trek movie, Star Trek Into Darkness.”

That’s not what the article says. It says that with the notable exception of Paramount who only released two movies this Summer, every other studio had at least one major flop in addition to their numerous hits. And it wasn’t just STID they singled out, it was also WWZ which ranks 8th to STIDs current 7th in domestic box office. There are currently five Summer blockbusters that were far more successful than STID in the US, and seven internationally.

The article also says this:

“But Disney also had the summer’s No. 1 box office bomb: “The Lone Ranger,” which cost at least $375 million to make and market, and has taken in about $232 million worldwide. After theater owners take their cut, Disney is looking at a write-down of $160 million to $190 million on the film.”

Since we know TLR cost 225-250 million to make, that means it cost 125-150 million to market. Applying that to STID with its 190 million budget and comparing relative marketing efforts, it seems to me that Paramount spent at least as much marketing STID if not more (e.g. 35 percent increase in international). So by my estimation STID cost between 315-340 million total. Given the theater owners take of the 462 million, Paramount may just be breaking even at the start of the video release. If this is in any way an accurate assesment, no wonder there might be cause for disappointment.

366. Basement Blogger - September 3, 2013

@ 365

Curious Cadet,

I did not say it was the highest grossing movie of the summer. I said it was the highest grossing STAR TREK movie. You see the term Star Trek defines the type of movie I was talking about. Please read before you post.. And yes Paramount did well with WWZ, according to the article.

Link. Star Trek Into Darkness is the highest grossing Star Trek movie. CC, that means of the Star Trek franchise. I’m talking about the Star Trek franchise. Still with me? That means Star Trek movies. Got it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Into_Darkness

367. Phil - September 3, 2013

@364. BOM will update the foreign box office later in the week. Still expect the final total to be in the mid to high 400MM range when done.

Not surprised at Lil bloggers response. You made your point and more mis-direction on his point won’t change anything. When someone is feeling the righteousness of their cause the facts don’t matter.

368. Curious Cadet - September 3, 2013

@366 Basement Blogger,
You don’t even know what YOU wrote:

“And the exception to this summer’s
disappointing blockbusters is …”

So what you wrote is that the “highest grossing Star Trek movie” is THE EXCEPTION to this Summer’s DISAPPOINTING blockbusters. As if all the blockbusters this Summer were disappointing except Star Trek.

That’s what I was calling you out on. The article doesn’t even remotely suggest that — it merely said Paramount did not have any flops (and implied an odds game). Not only is WWZ an EXCEPTION, but so are all of the 5-7 domestic and international movies that did better then STID and WWZ.

Nowhere in my post did I imply you misstated STID was the highest grossing film of the Summer. That’s all on you.

369. Basement Blogger - September 3, 2013

@ 368

Cuious Cadet,. Okay, I’ll go along with some to your point. I should have been more precise. There were other tentpoles that did well. The point was that Star Trek Into Darkness was not a disappointment this summer.

And since I conceded a point , I see you have’t till admitted to being wrong about BC being Khan. Red Dead Ryan , MJ and myself are still looking for your crow recipe.

370. Basement Blogger - September 3, 2013

@ 367

Phil, it’s been a couple of weeks since you came after me. I guess I’m one of your favorite people to troll..

371. Basement Blogger - September 3, 2013

@ 367

Phil, it’s been a couple of weeks since you came after me. I guess I’m one of your favorite people to troll..

372. Phil - September 3, 2013

^^^^

Boy, just so impressed with everything you write that you had to post it twice, to admire your handiwork. Nah, I don’t have to come after you, you do a fine job self destructing all by yourself. I’m just as happy to let others point out when you are wrong, as well. Keep it classy, Lil’ blogger….

See you on the busy threads, and I think you know why. Cheers…

373. Basement Blogger - September 3, 2013

@ 372

Phil,

I did not mean to post it twice. I don’t even know how to do that. The filter usually deletes duplicated posts. But sometimes things get posted twice.

Regarding making mistakes, I try to correct them. And as I stated I should have been more precise above. @ 369) So when I make a mistake I admit it.

Cute name you have for me. It’s so “nice” for you to think about me even when I haven’t yet posted. See your “hilarious” space lawyer joke on the Dickerson thread.

Phil says,

” Nah, I don’t have to come after you, you do a fine job self destructing all by yourself. ”

Really? No more bile? Oh and thanks for admitting to trolling .

374. Basement Blogger - September 3, 2013

The Force is not with Benedict Cumberbatch. I was going to post a report that said BC was going to be in Star Wars VII. But now the New York Daily News has just debunked that. Link. I guess we’ll have to wait and see who’s been cast for Abrams trip to a galaxy far, far away.

Link. BC is not in Star Wars VII.
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/benedict-cumberbatch-cast-star-wars-episode-vii-rep-article-1.1444585

375. Phil - September 3, 2013

@374. Old news, actually, though the thought that BC was sooooo good, they just had to cast him as Princess Leia was good for a giggle.

See, that wasn’t so hard.

376. Phil - September 3, 2013

A little more reading on the summer box office. BOM seems a bit more cherry on the overall picture, but does spend some time discussing the demise of 3D and the slowing growth of foreign box office. Now, considering that both of those market segments are areas that Trek was late to the party on, what do you suppose Paramount is doing prior to announcing Trek 3? I’d be willing to bet that budget, 3D, and further penetration of the foreign market are very specific negotiating points that BR is going to have to address prior to there being an announcement, and possibly nailing down some talent with gravitas in the foreign market is probably high on the to do list as well.

Olive branch, Bernie – if you have some opinion to share, please feel free. Looking at all the sniping over on the fix Trek thread, life is too short to constantly snipe over silly stuff.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=3722&p=.htm

377. Phil - September 3, 2013

Cheery, not cherry. Damn spell check.

378. Phil - September 4, 2013

More reading material…

http://variety.com/2013/biz/news/l-a-mayor-declares-state-of-emergency-as-movie-tv-production-flees-hollywood-1200589182/

379. Basement Blogger - September 4, 2013

@ 376

Phil,

I accept.

380. RedshirtJohnny - September 7, 2013

Re-imagining Star Trek was a brilliant idea and J.J. Abrahms did a fantastic job with the first movie. It was new, fun, witty, and exciting with just a few easter eggs to make long term Star Trek fans giggle a little. Into Darkness was boring and cliche because no matter how you slice it, it was a re-make of Wrath of Kahn. Science Fiction fans want to be dazzled with special effects, fun characters, and most importantly an imaginative new plot. The first new Star Trek plot was fun, new, and it made a parallel-universe scenario which gave the writers free reign to re-write star trek history. They had an audience hungry for the next new adventure….and instead they got something that they’ve seen before. It’s like ordering a new computer, and what you get instead is a refurbished one. I was so disappointed after seeing Into Darkness, not because it was a terrible movie, but because so much of it had been done before. If the screenwriters make a 3rd movie (and I honestly hope they do) all it needs is a brand spanking new plot! There’s 3 seasons of original series source material to use to come up with something fresh and fun that everybody can enjoy. Personally I’d love to see our heroes fight a modernized Gorn or add clarity to why tribbles and klingons don’t get along. Anyway I just hope for a better tomorrow.

381. Pvt Ktara - September 7, 2013

I will be quite honest, I wasn’t at all impressed with this Star Trek film, but I do respect the rights of others to their opinion. I will say this, though: I am getting sick and tired of those who choose to launch attacks against those of us whose opinions differ from theirs, no matter who they are. Calling fans “crappy” (I’m choosing to clean up the language that I read, which was quoted on tor.com) and telling them to (bleep) off and calling them “rude” is most definitely not cool.

Having gotten that off my chest, here’s my rundown on what I felt was wrong with the new Trek movie:

1) Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan. Last I checked, Khan was supposed to be a man of East Indian descent who was a product of the Eugenics Wars, and unless I miss my guess, Cumberbatch is a white, English bloke who looks nothing like that. There are plenty of Bollywood actors who would have filled the role quite nicely, or you could have gone for someone like Naveen Andrews or even Oded Fehr, who is not East Indian but who could very well pull off Khan. Cumberbatch, while a fine actor, looked so totally out of place and lost as Khan (which, BTW, was the WORST-kept secret in Trek movie history) that I almost felt sorry for him.

2) Gratuitous shots of men and women in their knickers add absolutely nothing to the story. I mean, if you’re showing someone getting out of the shower and rushing to the bridge then I can handle that, but Carol Marcus stripping down to her bra and panties in the shuttle was totally pointless and lame. Same for Kirk and his little threesome near the beginning of the movie.

3) Wholesale lifting of scenes from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Oh, people can change who says the words, and who dies in what particular scene, but there were scenes that even I, who usually doesn’t have a problem with giving a reboot a chance, found hard to swallow because they came right out of TWOK. Putting the words of Jack B. Sowards in another character’s mouth is NOT originality, people.

4) The scenes with Noel Clarke. Noel is a good actor, but his scenes in the movie did nothing to add to the overall plot and tone. I felt that he was a fine, young talent who was completely wasted in STID when he could have been better utilized elsewhere in the film.

Anyway, that’s my opinion. If people want to have a courteous, friendly discussion with me about it then that’s fine, but I will not tolerate personal attacks, insults, or “the filmmakers didn’t miss YOU at the movie” type of remarks. Not everyone was enchanted with STID, so don’t disrespect those of us who weren’t.

382. Basement Blogger - September 7, 2013

There are raves for “12 Years a Slave”, a movie in which Benedict Cumberbatch plays a part in. It’s not out yet so I don’t know how big his part in the movie is. It’s making the rounds at the film festivals.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/06/12-years-a-slave-toronto_n_3883998.html

383. Phil - September 8, 2013

Bernie,
Yeah, came across a few comments on 12 Years a few days ago. Mr. Pitt mentioned something to the effect that if he never acted again that the movie would be a fitting cap on his career. Looking forward to that more then The Fifth Estate, but that’s probably more because of the subject matter.

Looks like your Reds are rolling right now, hopefully my Dodgers will finish strong. See you in the playoffs….

384. Phil - September 9, 2013

Looks like Paramount is backpedaling a bit on the WWZ sequel. While it will probably happen, it’s probably also getting the hard once over STID is undoubtedly also getting. Expect smaller budgets next time around.

385. Disinvited - September 9, 2013

#384. Phil – September 9, 2013

Have to agree.

386. Basement Blogger - September 10, 2013

@ 383

Phil,

Hopefully this won’t slip into a baseball blog but the Dodgers have some of the best talent in baseball.

387. Phil - September 11, 2013

@386. Oh, I know, but having missed the WS for 25 years now you’ll forgive me a little trepidation in proclaiming LA WS bound just yet. If recent history is any indication, it tends to be the hot wild card team that comes in and runs the table, anyway.

Well, considering the s**tstorm still brewing on a couple of the main threds, a little baseball chatter might be a welcome relief…

388. Basement Blogger - September 11, 2013

Alice Eve was on Craig Ferguson’s show two nights ago. She doesn’t talk a whole lot about STID. Interesting conversation about free will. Posted below; interview starts at the eighteen minute mark.

Ms. Eve is not the most controversial guest. It’s Shirley Jones! She talks about her biography which features some salacious details She’ a grandmother. What I did find interesting was she was contracted to Rodgers and Hammerstein not to a studio. Curious as to how that works. Could the two veto an acting job like “From Here to Eternity?” Don’t know.

http://www.cbs.com/shows/late_late_show/video/sLz7ENyC7CUcIv0dstVB3FlmXN6GtO0X/the-late-late-show-9-09-2

389. Ingo Ludwig - September 11, 2013

I’m a STAR TREK fan since I was 13 years back in 1990 when I watched the Pilot of TNG.
I liked every incarnation of STAR TREK ever since more or less.And I had allot of fun watching TOS. The Movies fascinated me also a great deal. I was never disappointed by STAR TREK V or NEMESIS. But the Abrams flicks I found highly nauseatingly disgusting. Absolutely stupid and Anti-Roddenberry. A abomination and STAR TREK in name only. Please no more Reboot films of STAR TREK.It’s torture.It caused me psychological agony since 2009.This reboot films are not only displaying trigger happy destruction it destroys also the heart of many longtime fans of the show but also destroys
the brain cells of the reboot lovers.This flicks are harmful.No message, no meaning, no hope, no education or any delivering of moral or social conscience.I’m not the only one who feels and thinks like that about the new movies, there are many fans out there who despise Abrams version of STAR TREK, but to few who cry out lout over this ridiculous reboot hype by critics and young movie goers alike. No applause for bad quality please.

390. Disinvited - September 12, 2013

NASA just confirmed Voyager 1 transitioned into interstellar space a couple of weeks back and thus, has left the solar system.

In another story NASA confirmed a picture of a startled frog caught on one of their launch cams.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/12/tech/innovation/voyager-solar-system/

No comment from Henson production on whether this has anything to do with their PIGS IN SPACE sequel.

391. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 12, 2013

You’ll see, Ingo.

If they wrap this next trek correctly we will all be singing their praises.

I am beginning to suspect that they took such a trigger-happy approach so they could really take some chances with a three picture storyline.

Remember, Johnathan Harris / Khan made some comments about the state of the Federation while referring to Vulcan’s demise. Where in Star Trek has there ever been a pointed effort by a screenwriter to refer to another series storyline, or to even have a movie sequels story connect together? Very few times. Inspite of the popular STII and STIII

I am getting the feeling the our much maligned writers were trying to make us all see things that take us out of our usual comfort zones in Trek, so that we take a look at the world WE are living in to possibly make positive changes inour society. I see real concern for our world in Star Trek into Darkness – put there by the writers – for our best welfare. Now that is an encouraging way to look at these Trek’s. There is the hope.

I am also beginning to suspect that this next Trek will really make us see exactly what Star Trek could be – in its full potential. To that end the writers decided to create characters that are going dark times that are very trying (sound familiar?) to take them to a place where they should not have ever been. In the end, through that trek into darkness, we just might have an opportunity to more fully connect to those characters by sharing in that similar dark experience. Thereby learning more about them in situations that are new.

I think alot of us are “upset” because we looked to Trek as a place where the craziness of this world, the darkness could not exist. Gene’s original utopian vision was a future place that is kinda like heaven. A clean place where missery never often happens. But that is not a real place that is easy for most to believe in, while enjoying what a character might experience. So, perhaps we need to see our characters have similar tradgedies occur, so that they are more real to us.

To make the characters more real, the writers are trying show us that they to share in dark tradgedies, so that we all have a common frame of reference. A shared experience.

Here’s hoping that someday we can relate to each other on a higher level and still pay for ticket. Seems like a contridiction, though.

I believe that these “new Trek” writer guys are way smarter than we have been giving them credit. We will see after the next movie if Star Trek can elevate to truly become something more than just that “geeky sci-fi show.” I think it can. And I see no reason that this next trek can’t travel through all the series, experience all the characters, in an effort to avoid Trek’s greatest threat.

Nero and the dark timeline paradox.

392. Disinvited - September 12, 2013

#391. TrekMadeMeWonder – September 12, 2013

[Imagine me saying this in Christopher Lloyd's 1955 Doc Brown character voice]

Johnathan Harris? The LOST IN SPACE actor! I can hear Harris’ Khan now “I’ve done worse than kill you. I’ve hurt you and I want to go on hurting you leaving you, as you left me…as you left her, buried alive. Oh the pain….the…pain.”

393. Phil - September 12, 2013

Hi, I’m Johnny Blaze. Flame on.

Kidding, of course.

Matt is being a tease, though.

394. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 12, 2013

Yeah, What’ up with his crytic message?

TrekMovie, as it is now, may not be here in the am?

Get ready to login around here. I hope they keep the history of articles and posts.

395. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 12, 2013

I really deserved that. Funny! : )

396. Phil - September 12, 2013

Nah, the login was bucks that AP wasn’t willing to spend. Is anyone willing to handicap this??

AP returns -
Major Trek announcement –
Site is being shut down –
Site has been turned over to someone else –
AP and Bob Orci have kissed and made up -

397. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 12, 2013

Pay per Post?

398. Matt Wright - September 12, 2013

LOL you guys just find the most sensational things possible to read into what I said.

It’s none of those huge things you said Phil.

It’s really just simple housekeeping.

It’s not hard, I closed the editorial’s comments, because something else is going to be published in the morning, come on guys you can put two and two together… Hasn’t the community been in an uproar over that editorial? haven’t there been calls for another point-of-view?

399. Matt Wright - September 12, 2013

@ 396 – Has nothing to do with paying more… WordPress blogs can enforce registration. Anthony has never liked that idea, his paradigm has been he wants it to be an open place where anyone can drop by and comment when they discover an article on TrekMovie.

400. Ingo Ludwig - September 12, 2013

This Reboot hack business will lead to nothing positive and will never bear the fruit of hope. I see no potential or any meaning or message in this abominable new STAR TREK flicks. Any STAR TREK show and episode had more wit and brain than this backward plots and character abusive script of INTO DARKNESS and the 2009 film. The STAR TREK universe had it’s dark times already with DS9. I intensely hope that the next Reboot flick will end with the annihilation of the alternate timeline.Then the nightmare is finally over and my heart suffers no more.

401. Phil - September 12, 2013

@ Matt Wright….hey, aren’t we all about jumping to conclusions these days. Lets add this to the handicap list:

Miley Cyrus pens op-ed piece for TrekMovie.com – ….. :-)

402. Phil - September 12, 2013

@Ingo Ludwig. Well, do your heart a favor and don’t watch it, and spare the rest of us your agony. Keep in mind the last two movies did more business then the previous seven, so not everyone shares your dismal outlook on the franchise.

403. Marja - September 12, 2013

381, Ktara, “4) The scenes with Noel Clarke. Noel is a good actor, but his scenes in the movie did nothing to add to the overall plot and tone. I felt that he was a fine, young talent who was completely wasted in STID when he could have been better utilized elsewhere in the film.”

I agree with you there.Those scenes with him, Nazneen Contractor and the little girl AND the dog [which ate up about 8" of film that could have been better spent on our Bridge crew] were only included to point out the power, power, wonder-workin’ power of the blood of “Khan.” Good grief. Waste of valuable screen time. Could have been condensed to 2 or 3″… should have used Noel Clarke elsewhere. And given our Trek regular cast a little more to do/say.

404. Marja - September 13, 2013

389 Ingo Ludwig, “Please no more Reboot films of STAR TREK.It’s torture.It caused me psychological agony since 2009.This reboot films are not only displaying trigger happy destruction it destroys also the heart of many longtime fans of the show but also destroys
the brain cells of the reboot lovers.This flicks are harmful.No message, no meaning, no hope, no education or any delivering of moral or social conscience.”

[TOS computer voice] YES I AM A MINDLESS FREAK ADMIRER OF THE ABRAMS FILMS. I HAVE NO WILL TO RESIST RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. I AM MINDLESS THEREFORE CANNOT RECOMMEND THAT YOU SIMPLY AVOID ABRAMS’ MOVIES IF THEY CAUSE YOU SEVERE PSYCHOLOGICAL AGONY [/monotone computer voice]

Really, you do have the power to resist. Lobby for Trek’s return to TV and avoid the movies. Why agonize yourself?

405. ProfPotts - September 13, 2013

How successful are the two re-boot movies? By the usual industry standard of just looking at the unadjusted worldwide box office totals they’re the most successful movies of the Star Trek film franchise. However, most of us realise that the industry standard of assessing success is based on historical precedent (it’s always been done that way), practicality (it’s relatively easy to assess box office takings compared with other methods), and the wishes of the studios themselves (it looks better for your latest movies to appear more successful than your past efforts). There are various efforts made to look at inflation adjusted box office totals, or total revenues generated (factoring in things such as DVD sales and merchandising), but they have their own issues to overcome too. One way to assess relative success could be to look at the worldwide box office takings for the movies as compared to the budget it took to make the film: i.e. if you’d invested in one of the Star Trek movies, which one would have given you the best return on your investment?

With some quick maths, just taking the worldwide box office totals and budgets as listed on the Star Trek film franchise Wikipedia page (I make no claims as to the accuracy of the raw data) I came up with the following results:

1. The Wrath of Khan – 882%
2. The Voyage Home – 554%
3. The Search for Spock – 483%
4. The Motion Picture – 397%
5. The Undiscovered Country – 358%
6. Generations – 343%
7. First Contact – 326%
8. Star Trek (09) – 275%
9. The Final Frontier / Star Trek into Darkness – each 234%
10. Insurrection – 203%
11. Nemesis – 112%

… the average return for the franchise coming out as 367% (which only the first four films manage to beat). (By way of contrast and example, Iron Man 3, with a similar budget to STiD, comes out at 607%).

Another way to put it would be to say that ‘Star Trek Into Darkness’ (the most expensive film of the franchise to make) generated 4.58x the takings of ‘The Wrath of Khan’ (the cheapest film of the franchise to make) at the box office, but cost 17.27x as much to make.

Obviously this is only one (simplistic) way to look at the figures, and no comment on the artistic merits or critical reception of the individual films, but I just thought it may be of interest.

406. Phil - September 13, 2013

@403. Not only that, it’s yet another example of raging incompetence in Federation society.

Doctor: We are sorry, Mr. Harewood, but there is nothing we can do for your daughter. She is going to die.
Harewood: Sob…
Khan: Let me help.

24 hours later.

Doctor: Mrs. Harewood, your daughter is fine. She can go home now.

When McCoy sees the Tribble spring back to life, that’s a big tipoff that little Harewood’s miraculous recovery apparently didn’t strike anyone as unusual. No press, research, blood sample, DNA scans. Apparently it was just, gee, she’s feeling better. Go home. At that point it’s really not even clear why Khan couldn’t just blow the place up himself, as the rest of the movie demonstrates, he had the skills and tech to do the job. Why blackmail someone else to do the dirty work?

At one point Clarke had mentioned he wasn’t sure if his work had survived the final edit, so apparently you are not the only one that concluded that it was a waste of screen time. Noel apparently felt the same way.

407. Cmd.Bremmon - September 13, 2013

Star Trek TOS was “Wagon Train to the Stars”. There were settlers that while exploring also needed protection, used money, took risks, etc – the hopeful message being that today’s humanity can eliminate racism, cooperate and develop technology to the point we can succeed. TNG went the other way and said we needed to end up utopians. ST 2009 succeeded in focusing on that action adventure however ST:ID only partially went that route.

It tried to inject a simplistic progressive message better suited for TNG which in turn derailed the movie with strange plot wholes and marginalized the presence of Khan. In my humble opinion the most exciting social dilemmas are those we don’t have an answer for, are so unexplored and difficult no one would know what we would do in those circumstances and really make people think. I know Hollywood wants to sell simple rainbows and fairy tales and reward who can try to sell a simple progressive message in the least boring fashion… but quite frankly Hollywood has to work hard to do so because it is boring and simplistic. I get you had to do one but can we move past it and get back to fun and thought provoking.

Compare STID with say “Balance of Terror”. Did Kirk really want to decide to cross the neutral zone? Was Spock right that not attacking would lead to a greater war? Was McCoy right that violence is wrong and people would die? Hard to say, hard choice, not cut and dry. Are the Romulans going to end up victorious against their historical enemies? And amazing how one ship on ship battle could change the course of history. Apply the simplistic social message of STID to Balance of Terror and.. Kirk would have stopped at the neutral zone and the Romulans just would have done nothing and all would have great? And compare “drones are bad” to say a real morale dilemma – if the Federation gives Kirk a pass on violating the Prime Directive what ethical right does it have to force other races, nations, etc to bide by the Prime Directive and not interfere with other cultures, especially say the Klingons if they are dilithium poor with starving people. Kahn is genetically superior, does that give him the right to form a technocracy to take care of all the poor regular humans in the Federation (and could he be stopped if he tried)? Should Kirk act to defend a small primative culture even if doing so would risk a war with the Klingons and the death of billions? With urgency and sophisticatioaction oral dilemma equals action (preferably with battles between equally matched opponents more “Master and Commander” than 2 minute shoot outs where the Enterprise is crippled in two shots).

408. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 13, 2013

399. Matt Wright

Kinda like “Open Source Trek.”

I like that Anthony promoted this philosophy as a way to market this site.
Login do truly suck the energy out of creative expression.

Thanks, TrekMovie!!! And thank you Matt for a peak at the inner workings.

409. Basement Blogger - September 14, 2013

@ 405

You really can’t judge the profitability of STID without factoring home video sales. Case in point. Austin Powers: Man of Mystery. It was a modest hit at the theater but took off in home video. Link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Powers:_International_Man_of_Mystery

410. Disinvited - September 14, 2013

#409. Basement Blogger – September 14, 2013

Actually, that’s a good point about all filmed Trek movie and TV: if they are still publishing new pressings of discs to fill retail shelves even in an overall market of declining DVD sales then corporate must perceive them all as having value worth the investment of going to the trouble to market.

411. Phil - September 15, 2013

Well, it appears that STID’s domestic run has ended. If so, the final domestic box office would be $228,778,661. I’m assuming the Japanese and Argentinean box office will run a couple more weeks, which would put worldwide BO just shy of 470MM.

I’ve no idea what FX paid for the broadcast rights, but between that and dvd/blueray sales gotta believe we are looking at about 600MM in revenue for this when it’s all said and done.

So, now we wait…..

412. Curious Cadet - September 15, 2013

@406. Phil,
“When McCoy sees the Tribble spring back to life, that’s a big tipoff that little Harewood’s miraculous recovery apparently didn’t strike anyone as unusual. No press, research, blood sample, DNA scans. Apparently it was just, gee, she’s feeling better. Go home. At that point it’s really not even clear why Khan couldn’t just blow the place up himself, as the rest of the movie demonstrates, he had the skills and tech to do the job. Why blackmail someone else to do the dirty work?”

A real opportunity was missed here, and in its place the almost comedic McCoy injecting the tribble with the blood while Kirk is debriefing Khan.

McCoy should have seen this article in the Federation Medical Journal about the miraculous recovery of the little girl, connected the bombing with Harewood and then tested Khan’s blood — perhaps directly on Kirk after he came out of the microwave oven. Instead of a real forensic moment, they dumbed it down to a tribble springing to life. So much for the scientific method.

As for blackmailing Harewood to blow up Section 31 … well until something happens that prevents me from viewing it this way, I’m gonna say because Marcus set up Khan. He assigned Khan to destroy the archives and handed him Harewood to do it, along with the method. He then told Khan to attack the captains meeting, at which point Marcus had Khan beamed directly to Kronos stranding him there until a dutiful ship could be dispatched with the 72 torpedoes to blow him and his crew out of existence.

I have no idea what on Earth Orci was thinking, since he has stated Khan acted alone (now there’s irony for you).

413. Marja - September 16, 2013

412 Curious, “McCoy should have seen this article in the Federation Medical Journal about the miraculous recovery of the little girl, connected the bombing with Harewood and then tested Khan’s blood — perhaps directly on Kirk after he came out of the microwave oven. Instead of a real forensic moment, they dumbed it down to a tribble springing to life. So much for the scientific method.”

I can’t say enough how much I agree. I really like it when McCoy practices medicine instead of having nonsensical lines like, “get him out of the cryotube – put him in an induced coma” [whut??] ….

414. Matt Wright - September 16, 2013

On the little girl and her miraculous recovery topic, there’s another deleted scene that was just talked about where Kirk actually meets her after his speech at the end of the film.

Which just makes a total lack of deleted scenes on home video even more annoying, now we know of another scene that’s not available for us to see.

http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-interview-star-trek-into-darkness-co-star-nazneen-contractor

There was a scene at the end of the movie, after the memorial service, in which Chris Pine (as Kirk) comes up to me and my daughter. He sees us, and my daughter is now healthy, with a full head of hair, and I thank him for his speech. He looks up at me and he knows who I am, and then he looks at my daughter, and they both have this moment where they know they share Khan’s blood. But it got cut.

415. Marja - September 16, 2013

Oh, Matt, I agree so hard. I guess we have to wish it will come true someday, that they put deleted scenes on a DEE-LUX video of STiD.

I can just imagine Pine-Kirk exchanging an emotional gaze for a moment with that little girl.

That would justify the time spent with the family at the beginning.

Curse you, two-hour time limit!!!

PLEASE BAD ROBOT MAKE THE NEXT MOVIE LONGER AND RELEASE A SHORTER “Action Cut” VERSION FOR THE “ACTION-ONLY” AUDIENCE !!!

416. Phil - September 17, 2013

The Costa Concordia has been righted, to be re-floated in the spring. An engineering marvel, with plenty of science and engineering information that should put to rest once and for all the fantasy of Enterprise being a submergible.

To illustrate compression, please note the sea trial video of the USS Minnesota.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPsWsvTSMxY

Sadly, it won’t.

417. Curious Cadet - September 17, 2013

@411. Phil,
“I’m assuming the Japanese and Argentinean box office will run a couple more weeks, which would put worldwide BO just shy of 470MM.”

Wile STID has doubled box office of ST09 in South America, it doesn’t seem to have gained much traction in Agentina nor Chile. And Japan has still not quite doubled its ST09 box office, with the numbers dropping rapidly from week to week. I can’t say I’m surprised considering the BluRay hit the streets last week (so much for a $15-20 million Japanese haul). While I’m certain STID has a few more weeks in it, it will be measured thousands not millions. But yes, you are essentially correct, it’s at 465 million now, and I predict 467-ish million will be the max BO take.

But the DVD and Blu-Ray sales, as well as digital downloads and rentals appear set to generate a huge amount of income. I would expect that along with the broadcast sales to easily exceed $600 million, especially considering its almost double foreign box office. So even if STID’s BO is truly disappointing to Paramount, they are definitely going to make their money back and a small profit (whether they reflect it on their books or not).

Their waiting to announce the sequel seems to have much more to do with the politics of who will be involved rather than whether it makes enough to warrant it.

418. TrekMadeMeWonder - September 17, 2013

I am still amazed that no one took the time to properly reply to my questions about that video that I posted. I was not saying that it was right, just saying that I wanted another smart persons thoughts on that video.

Amazed.

419. Phil - September 17, 2013

@417. The delay in the announcement is probably more basic then that, and there are clues in Brad Pitt speaking in terms of ‘if the WWZ sequel gets made’. The behind the scenes negotiation now is simply about budget. Paramount was quick to announce a WWZ sequel, and they have backpedaled a bit. I’m guessing Paramount wants to spend about 300MM on both franchises, and their respective production companies are trying to figure out how to get it done.

420. Curious Cadet - September 17, 2013

@419 Phil,

Interesting, I hadn’t followed that.

On the other hand, at least Orci is talking to somebody about the sequel, and Damon Lindelof is not going to be on it! That is indeed good news. On the other hand, who will Orci blame if the next movie turns out to be as underwhelming as STID?

421. Marja - September 17, 2013

Well, Curious, Maybe we can hope for the “reverse curse” to work, say, ST2009 got lots of accolades, STID was not as well received by fans, so maybe ST3 will be wowza! [You remember, right, how ST:TMP "sucked," then TWOK was GREAT, STIII was middlin', STIV was Great, STV sucked, STVI was ... ummm "great...."

Wish they'd get a third [Sci-Fi] writer in on ST3, but I guess that’s not in the cards.

One can hope, about the “curse” and the writing : )

422. CandyAppleFox - September 19, 2013

RE: “Trek is Broken”

Star Trek doesn’t belong to you.

Your definitive language and possessive nature is typical of hard-core fans of… most anything, especially Star Trek.

Agreeing with the (Impressively vocal) creative force behind Into Darkness…

To say that Trek is ‘Broken’ is an utterly ludicrous and astonishing idea to share with other ‘fans’… given the unmistakable success of the most recent episode – both financially for the franchise and emotionally in the storytelling.

This is the beginning.

It’s also the beginning of an ALTERNATE reality. The characters are new to their own lives… AND to their relationships with each other. If Kirk (or whomever) isn’t the way you remember him, it’s probably because he is yet to become the character you remember – and his relationship with Spock (or whomever) is yet to reach the depths you’re familiar with.

Not to mention… he’s being played by a different actor from a different time/place with direction and dialog from different artists… with a different voice.

It will be different because it cannot be the same.

To be so possessive over your own version or memory of Trek… to a point where you’re unable to accept new material is disappointing, grossly ignorant and obviously predictable.

A fan of this property SHOULD want to support it, fly the flag. ‘fans’ of anything should NOT pretend that their views and opinions are valid or important because the International Network allows their words to be read by others.

Your words and ideas are mostly juvenile and obviously lacking any formal knowledge of storytelling.

I f*****g ove Into Darkness.

423. Phil - September 19, 2013

Did I miss something – this Enterprise has 72 torpedo tubes?

424. ProfPotts - September 21, 2013

That’s a good point Basement Blogger makes about home media sales. Paramount pricing the VHS of The Wrath of Khan $40 below the usual price for a movie at the time (1983) (and getting double the sales they needed to make that move as profitable as regular pricing) is generally credited with paving the way towards competative pricing and increased popularity for home media. So Trek pretty much has the longest history of any franchise as ‘king of home media’.

Trek films are a little tricky to categorise, in some respects. In these days of the ‘billion-dollar-box-office’, the way to get that billion-dollars (or to get close) seems to be to have a well-loved and established property (that’s a check for Trek), be part of a film franchise (check), be some sort of fantasy / sci-fi genre (check), and to throw a good 150 to 200 million budget at the thing (also a check). In that light, both ST09 and STiD seem disappointing compared with, say, the Marvel movies, Harry Potter series, or Star Wars.

On the other hand, Trek has its origins and success stories squarely in the small screen market – both with multiple television series and great popularity on home media. So maybe even considering Trek being in the same ballpark as those billion-dollar-box-office successes is a mistake in the first place?

So – speculative question: would people perhaps prefer to see one lower-budget, limited screen run, quick-to-home media Trek film every year, rather than one big budget blockbuster attempting to go head-to-head with the ‘big boys’ every four years?

425. Basement Blogger - October 3, 2013

I just watched Star Trek Into Darkness on DVD. And one thing that we forget to mention is just how good was Chris Pine. In the 2009 movie, Pine’s Kirk was kind of an arrogant jerk.

In STID, we see a more humble Kirk. He realizes he doesn’t have all the answers. The scene where Kirk begs for the lives of his crew is extraordinary. Pine really shows humility here. He’s fallible. Hopefully for the third movie , we’re going to see Kirk mature even more.

426. Captain Slow - October 6, 2013

That moment when Kirk turns to the crew and says “I’m sorry.” is now my favorite Kirk moment in all of Star Trek.

In fact I’d say that Chris Pine is now a better Kirk than Shatner. I know many people will disagree with that.

427. crazydaystrom - October 7, 2013

@426. Captain Slow
“…I’d say that Chris Pine is now a better Kirk than Shatner. I know many people will disagree with that.”

I think I’ll be one who agree’s with you on that Captain Slow. I really want to see Pine have a chance to flourish in the role. I have to wonder just how long he’ll play Kirk. He IS a fine and charismatic actor.

Quinto on the other hand is an actor I’m having trouble warming to still after all these years. His Spock for me doesn’t come close to conveying the pathos Nimoy’s does. As an actor Quinto just has never ‘grabbed’ me the way, say, Pine, Shatner or Nimoy do. And I’ve seen him in Heroes, American Horror Story and Star Trek. His performance in AHS is my favorite of his. I don’t hate his Spock but I miss the soulfulness of Nimoy’s iconic performance.

428. Shadowtag - October 8, 2013

I watched it the other night* (my girlfriend’s ill so I just wait, movie tickets are roughly the same price as a DVD these days). It is, surprisingly, the only Star Trek movie I have on DVD (I keep waiting for an affordable box set of the films but now I’m still waiting to go to Blu Ray. And I do have the sub-par first release of ST:TNG S1, paid too much. Anyway I have opinions, mostly about releases. Two first dates with girls involved Star Trek movies and it was their idea. That’s the kind of guy I am. One involved the real Kirk. That’s how old I am).

I didn’t hate it. It wasn’t great, but it wasn’t the mess I was expecting. Even coming off a weekend marathon of 2-6 there were things about it I liked. But I was also coming off the Transformers Prime finale (the movie) also written by Orci and Kurtzman and…well. I wasn’t enthused anyway. I haven’t warmed to the recasting but…it was basically all callbacks to Wrath of Khan and then warping that perception. That is the opposite of forging your own path. That’s just expensive fanfiction.

She swooned over Cumberbatch because…well he’s a really good actor otherwise. I found his Khan overblown and as hollow as Pine’s Kirk when it came to leadership. They SAY they’re leaders but neither acts like it. To find this after what was it, four years of Transformers Prime, where Optimus is every inch the leader…it’s a shame. I know Orci and Kurtzman only wrote some of the episodes and some outlines, but c’mon. Prime and Kirk, while very different, are leaders. The writing on Into Darkness pretty miserably on this front.

I do feel that Quinto continues a bad streak. I’ve never found him a compelling actor, and really I have to blame the writing he’s been saddled with and certain acting choices. Again my girlfriend likes him so I try, but just ends up going to this deadpan delivery. Stoic, unflappable. That’s not acting.

Pegg tho. He was good. Despite his accent being more accurate than the late, lamented James Doohan, he brought me back to those days sitting in my aunt’s living room watching hours of TOS and ignoring the obviously fake rocks for the acting. He worked the hell out of his part.

Urban wasn’t bad either, his Kelley voice (again, I miss him) has gotten better since the first movie and it was already dead on then but he’s got like two scenes. I barely noticed Zoe Saldana until the boss fight on the train. And that’s a crime. John Cho’s Sulu was good (we need to get a Star Trek series just so we can finally see Takei as Admiral Sulu) and Anton Yelchin (It took me a few minutes to remember his name. I’ve seen six of his films outside Star Trek and I think he’s wasting his time here) I only noticed when I couldn’t understand the words.

I didn’t mind Weller, who oddly enough I almost missed, but I think his character might have been better suited to a Voltron live action (don’t start with me, Voltron made me cry once because it hit me with an abstract concept when I was six and I’ve been a little nuts since). The Klingons. They made the Klingons more boring than all the Worf-centered episodes of TNG and DS9 combined.

And the entire Carol Marcus thing was just…Abrams should apologize for such pandering. I know he has but yikes.

As far as where it fits on the scale, it isn’t on it. Mine’s Khan, Search (only because my aunt HAD to get that movie to assure me Spock lived or I wouldn’t eat), Undiscovered Country (I love Shakespeare and even as a kid knew enough of Hamlet. I have gotten kicked out of libraries. Finding out I could take them home was a revelation), First Contact (even after they ran the Borg into the ground). I’ll watch anything that doesn’t involve Data crying.

And I still liked it for what it was. Expensive fan fiction. By the end everyone’s actually acting like what I expect. Kirk’s calling the shots with arrogance, confidence and the knowledge he has the best crew ever, Spock’s deferring judgement, but not afraid to object , they have that understanding. Bones admits there’s nowhere he’d rather be. Scotty’s cranky and probably blitzed. That they DIDN’T end with the line I wanted bugged me, since all of space is open. I didn’t want the “Captain’s Oath”, that should have been the Captain’s first log entry. I didn’t want two movies for them to start. I wanted Kirk to say “second star to the right, Mr Sulu…”

429. rpalvinballen6 - October 10, 2013

7

430. Basement Blogger - October 23, 2013

I just saw The Fifth Estate. Benedict Cumberbatch was brilliant. He’s egotistical, arrogant, and righteous in the movie. Special treat for us Trekkers. Alexander Siddig (DS9′s Dr. Bashir) has a small but important part.

431. Robman007 - October 23, 2013

I put this on a different thread, but the Khan mini-series from IDW looks like it will go into the difference in appearance between TOS Khan and STID Khan. Actually, his difference in appearance is the first thing brought up in his trial by Kirk, Spock and Cogley. They question who he really is because he looks and sounds nothing like Khan Noonien Singh…then starts the backstory..

Interesting

I think the theory of Admiral Marcus changed his identity so he would not be discovered will in fact be the reason for his looks difference..something left out of the film no doubt either in a deleted scene or as to not bog down the average film audience with Trek fan only background.

432. Phil - October 23, 2013

@430. Well, judging from the box-office numbers, you are one of about seventy-eight people who saw the movie. Not sure what Cumberbatch was thinking when he signed on for this one, other then art house flick.

433. Marja - October 24, 2013

432 Phil, Benderbatch was probably doing what most good actors like to do … exploring a new character with depth, instead of relaxing into easy “bread & butter” roles that bring in tons of money. He’s a stage actor – they tend to have more desire to build characters ….

We know that Sir Lawrence Olivier did “Marathon Man” and other broad entertainment movies, however he called them “bread & butter” roles because they were easy and brought in plenty of $$. and he was Lawrence frikkin’ Olivier and could have a stage play whever he wanted ;-). Same with Sir John Gielgud who acted in “Arthur” with Dudley Moore.

Actors have so much more flexibility now and can move from deep stage roles to movies to quality TV and mix those roles up a bit when offered smaller movie projects. I think they find them quite interesting c/w most movie roles, even though they don’t bring a huge paycheck.

434. Marja - October 24, 2013

PS I think “Fifth Estate” may build its numbers slowly, those “arthouse” movies often do. We’ll see. Cumbersnatch has millions of fans these days, and it hasn’t gone overseas yet, has it? You should have seen the fans in Japan. They’re crazy over him.

435. Captain Slow - October 25, 2013

But remember that STID wasn’t really that big in Japan. So I somehow doubt that this movie will be that successful either.

436. Phil - October 25, 2013

@433. What’s more likely was that he signed the contract when he wasn’t in a position to say no….and it was probably one of those projects that seemed like a good idea at the time, now, with the benefit of hindsight, Wikileaks and JA just are not that compelling of a story.

437. Marja - October 26, 2013

436 Phil, I’m still pretty interested in what makes powerful personalities tick. But I realize that theme won’t attract a huge movie audience.

As to the stage vs. film thing, there are plenty of Big Names who go back to stage work periodically to experience crafting a character from the ground up and act the character and build upon it. Many actors love that part of the craft. The next-best thing is acting a complex or enigmatic character on the screen, large or small.

Jeremy Irons was on stage a few years ago, and little Harry Potter [Daniel Radcliffe] has appeared in both serious and silly plays.

438. Basement Blogger - October 30, 2013

@ 432

Phil, I guess Cumberbatch thought he got to star in a movie. The film did not receive good reviews The movie is lot like Assange. Did some good things. Imperfect. History will judge him and this movie. I liked the movie.

Am waiting for 12 Years a Slave. Wonder how big a part BC has in it. Then of course there’s Sherlock but not until 2014.

439. Phil - October 30, 2013

@438. Understood. I’m not one of those guys who’s going to crucify a performer because of projects they did early in their career. The guy is just getting himself established in his craft, and if he’s concerned about paying the bills, I don’t fault him taking the work. The guy seems to have a solid work ethic, which will go a long way toward smoothing out the clunkers on his resume.

Yeah, looking forward to 12 Years a Slave. Was also looking forward to The Monuments Men, sorry to see it got bumped a bit in the schedule. Found one bit of casting curious, I wonder how many people will see Bill Murray in uniform and think ‘Pvt. John Winger’??

440. Curious Cadet - November 5, 2013

@431. Robman007,
“The Khan mini-series from IDW looks like it will go into the difference in appearance between TOS Khan and STID Khan.”

LOL, as you correctly point out, it is the first thing they mention, and as such, becomes the ENTIRE focus and overiding question of the comic … Why does Khan not look anything like Montalban? So much for those who foolishly argued that Khan was never established as non-white.

————————–
“I think the theory of Admiral Marcus changed his identity so he would not be discovered will in fact be the reason for his looks difference.”

No offense, but this has been your theory from the beginning, and therefore your bias. While it’s entirely possible Orci might do this, I maintain it will be a huge mistake that will undermine not only Orci’s credibility, but makes the least sense of the many theories out there, primarily because there is no need to change his race in order to disguise him against an accidental and unlikely sighting as Khan by some 20th century history student, much less change his accent.

Moreover, I think Orci likes to believe he is more clever than this. The explanation that he underwent plastic surgery to disguise himself is the easiest, laziest and most uninspired reason possible. Besides it’s already been shown in canon going back to ST: Enterprise, that it’s relatively easy to change someone’s outward appearance. Seems to me the first thing Khan would have done is change his appearance back the first minute he could, especially with the entire Federation hunting for a guy who looks like John Harrison. And judging by the opening of STID, Khan had a lot of time after he went off the radar and blew up the Archives.

441. stlcards - November 9, 2013

I want to know why Captain Kirk in STID didn’t look like William Shatner? lol Anyways, I was watching STID and watching Kirk get killed and brought back to life in the same movie made me wonder why Shatner’s Kirk couldn’t be brought back to life? Orci brought Pine’s Kirk back to life. His excuse that Shatner’s Kirk died in Generations doesn’t hold water.

442. Phil - November 11, 2013

^^^
Well, for starters Shatner is 82, and doesn’t get around quite as well as he used to….

443. Basileus - November 18, 2013

There seemed to be almost a celebration that STID “didn’t do well, but not a flop” the blame was squarely on the under 25′s who didn’t go. We are talking about “High School Musical” and “Monsters University” types here.The film has taken nearly 500 mill worldwide. Hardly a bloody flop. More than deserving of a follow up. The obsession with this “under 25″ crap is unbelievable.

444. Jack - November 30, 2013

443. Exactly. It was the tenth highest grossing domestic pic of the last 365 days (on a list that includes The Hobbit, Gravity and Iron Man 3) and the sixth highest domestic of the summer of 2013 (out of 100 films).

That’s neither a disappointment nor a flop. It’s not even middling. It was very successful — especially in a summer of big budget underperformers. And it wasn’t summer family fare, like Monsters University & Despicable Me, it was a PG-13 movie with a dark, male-skewed marketing campaign.

People here who expected Trek to make a billion dollars or more were delusional.

No, it wasn’t bloody Avatar or The Avengers — and it didn’t beat the Trek 2009 opening record (when it was novel as heck and pretty highly anticipated) but it certainly did well.

And note that some of the Trekmovie folks called movies like The Amazing Spider-Man a flop because it only did $750 million bucks (less than previous Spider-Man flicks, sure, but far from a bloody flop). Same with Super 8, which made $260 million on a $50 mil budget. 200+ million bucks profit is 200+ million bucks profit. That ain’t “not doing well.”

Nobody’s calling The World’s End, which cost 20 mil and made 46 mill worldwide, a flop. And Trek made, apparently, as much as 10x that profit.

445. Robman007 - December 5, 2013

440. Curious Cadet

Khan getting his identity changed is also the most logical reason for looking different. Admiral Marcus wouldn’t want any bored Ensign working with “harrison” to try and find out where this wonder guy came from, so he’d look him up first chance he got. Didn’t take Kirk too long in Space Seed to figure something was up, then they found out that Khan was the notorious tyrant from the 20th century and did something about it. Besides, Section 31′s activities were already beyond illegal, so why risk it further.

Nice to see that I was correct about the comics all along. Pretty damn good story so far as well.

446. julie - December 19, 2013

sorry, i’m new here. i have some Qs about a few minor characters, better posted on THIS page, i think: http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/18/snls-bill-hader-has-star-trek-into-darkness-voice-cameo-more-tidbits-from-cast-credits/

but i don’t get a comment box there!

just a closed thread, or what?

i could ask here, i suppose, but i’m afraid it will get lost in the shuffle.

well, for starters — who’s the actress (vietnamese? thai?) kirk ALMOST hits on right before pike plunks down in the bar? in my copy, it’s around 19:30.

few more similar ones, but many are follow-ups to things in that other thread, so if it’s possible there, someone pls clue me in HOW!

thanks!

447. Curious Cadet - December 20, 2013

@445. Robman007,
“Khan getting his identity changed is also the most logical reason for looking different.”

Except there is absolutely NO logical reason to change his ethnicity. None.

_________________
“Nice to see that I was correct about the comics all along. Pretty damn good story so far as well.”

Well, the comics haven’t touched on why Harrison doesn’t look like Khan yet. So, there’s no guarantee that it will have anything with concealing his identity.

But ultimately, what’s nice for you, is blatant fan pandering and ultimately a mistake for Orci. Taking such a hot button issue and making it the focus of the comic is absolute folly in my opinion. Orci may surprise me, but considering STID did not surprise me in any fashion, I’m not counting on it. I’m still expecting the answer to totally undermine every position he took on the whitewashing of the character, and disappoint everybody in the process. Moreover, they’ve essentially glossed over Khan’s rule in the 1990s. This was a prime opportunity to tell us more about Khan and create some good quasi-canon underpinnings, but nope. Instead they are more concerned about why he doesn’t look like the historical records.

448. julie - December 20, 2013

@444: it certainly wasn’t a flop but i’m with the critics who didn’t THINK much of the film. i loved ST2009, and khan was fine for this one, but there were so many screwy details in this one that were just…”off”. eve angel was annoying even before that silly “flash” scene, the uhuru/spock stuff passed from amusing to grating, and the ending was just too “cute”.

worst part, tho, was the “consultation” with spock. it added NOTHING to the story (unlike in ST2009); clearly just a reminder that he’s gonna be sticking around in future films.

on the PLUS side, i love watching things crash into san francisco! hope they do that in EVERY film….

—–
anyway, cud someone PLS tell me why i can’t post in that other thread? member vs nonmember issue, or simply a dead/archived thread?

449. julie - December 23, 2013

quickie: why does scotty’s phaser drop khan in one blast, whereas 6 or more out of uhura can’t achieve same?

diff type, or giant plot hole?

450. Mark Lynch - January 6, 2014

I think that the answer is that Khan heard Kirk tell Scotty to “Drop Khan” and that Khan pretended to be stunned after the first shot. To see what Kirk did.

At least, that is the only way I can rationalise it that makes any sense and is not just sloppy writing.

451. Cygnus-X1 - January 13, 2014

446. julie – December 19, 2013

—sorry, i’m new here. i have some Qs about a few minor characters, better posted on THIS page, i think: http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/18/snls-bill-hader-has-star-trek-into-darkness-voice-cameo-more-tidbits-from-cast-credits/
but i don’t get a comment box there! just a closed thread, or what?—

Yeah, that thread is closed because it’s very old. People tend to stick to a few threads at a time before collectively deciding to move on—maybe 5 or 6 when there’s a lot of news coming out, and hence more threads being posted before people have moved on, or if there’s a thread with like 1,000+ posts that continues to be active while new articles are going up.

452. Cygnus-X1 - January 13, 2014

450. Mark Lynch – January 6, 2014

—I think that the answer is that Khan heard Kirk tell Scotty to “Drop Khan” and that Khan pretended to be stunned after the first shot. To see what Kirk did.—

I think so, too. Khan anticipated that Kirk and Scotty would try to subdue him when they didn’t need him any more, so he faked being unconscious in order to gain the element of surprise.

453. Jack - January 15, 2014

450. Indeed. I’d guessed the same thing. And I’m fine that they didn’t do the typical “only the audience can see the knocked-out guy slowly opens eyes to show he’s really awake.”

But, yep, assumptions galore are required by the entire plot. I don’t like being spoonfed answers and am a big fan of mystery, ambiguity, and seemingly counter-intuitive answers, when they work, because sometimes life seems that way. But that only works when stories are character driven rather than characters being story driven.

Sometimes a plot hole is just a plot hole.

And sometimes the mystery box contains nothing but a garbled-except-for the-reactor-scene VHS copy of Star Trek II.

Bob doesn’t criticize his own work on here, or anywhere else, but I’m curious whether he wishes parts of STID had worked a bit better.

It’s not a bad movie — but it really could have been great… the pieces were all there. But from the point of view of a viewer, it seems like a lot of the story was built around ideas for specific scenes, superficial references to mainly 13-year-old events and superficial hints at ongoing themes (sort-of-911! sort-of-drones! sort-of-Dick-Cheney! sort of torture! sort of the hunt for bin laden! revenge without thinking! losing our principals! holding accused terrorists as frozen prisoners! the power of friendship! the power of destiny! the power of potential!), homages and engineered a-ha-moments-that-only-work-if-you’d-never-heard-of-the-internet-before-watching (“wait, there are 72 torpedos!…” whispering loudly and nudging friend — “wait, that blonde’s first name is Carol!… she must be… ) and the story was built to tie them all together.

Maybe not the case. But that’s what it feels like.

The good: Every line uttered by Pike, possibly just because Bruce Greenwood is Bruce Greenwood.

And sometimes I wonder if Bob Orci just thinks we’re all (Trek fans/ film fans) complete and utter idiots.

454. VulcanCafe - January 16, 2014

Noting the Oscar Nomination of Star Trek Into Darkness in the ACHIEVEMENT IN VISUAL EFFECTS category.

455. Cygnus-X1 - January 19, 2014

453. Jack – January 15, 2014

And sometimes I wonder if Bob Orci just thinks we’re all (Trek fans/ film fans) complete and utter idiots.

That’s actually a bit of a tricky question. Everything he’s said here indicates that he thinks he made a smart movie. In fact, on several occasions, when people have complained that his movie has “lazy writing,” he has responded by complaining about “lazy viewers.” So, on the one hand, he doesn’t seem to think that the audience is dumb and doesn’t want us to be dumb.

But, on the other hand, I think that he (and the other writers/producers) thought that we were dumb enough to assume that the confusing, muddled plot of STID was so smart as to be over our heads and that’s why it didn’t make sense to us. It’s complicated, yada yada, some kind of sophisticated strategery is going on between Marcus and Khan, don’t get hung up on trying to figure it out, just sit back and enjoy the action.

456. T'Cal - January 26, 2014

1. BSG
2. DS9
3. TNG
4. The Walking Dead
5. Firefly
6. Doctor Who
7. Twilight Zone
8. Agents of Shield
9. TOS
10. Stargate

457. Jeff Chanowski - January 27, 2014

If Bob Orci is reading these posts I hope he can appreciate what us fans have been saying. I hope he can also see past the big dollars the last couple movies have made and not sell the die hard Trekkers and Trekkies out by giving us another movie that leaves allot to be desired. Us die hards are the best fans of any franchise. We are smart and we don’t want a movie just titled “Star Trek”. We want a movie that is Star Trek. With the 50th anniversary coinciding with this next film please give us all something that the new and old fans will all love. Give us a film that shows us the prime universe still exists…even if its just a peek. I would love to see Prime Spock go back there where he belongs. For the new fans who like the more Star Wars like Trek give them an action packed war with the Klingons. Perhaps a blood thirsty Klingon villain who kills innocent pacifists (Kirks brother or mom) and maybe even takes over the Starfleeet headquarters in San Francisco. Perhaps even show us a glimmer of the alternate universes mirror universe. If you are reading this Bob. You’re our man. We are counting on you. Franco

458. Jack - January 30, 2014

“Give us a film that shows us the prime universe still exists…even if its just a peek. I would love to see Prime Spock go back there where he belongs”

This is like Kathy Bates making James Caan rewrite Misery so she lives.

459. Jack - January 30, 2014

109. ” I guess the movie theaters are still open through the economic crisis there?”

Are you kidding?

460. Phil - January 31, 2014

Silly observation on my part – when Khan and Spock are going at it on the flying fire truck at the end of the movie, was Spock trying to throw the Vulcan Death Grip on him??

Yeah, yeah, I know, it doesn’t exist….just watch the segment.

461. Jeff C. - January 31, 2014

#458. Jack. Your analogy is not logical since the prime universe supposedly still exists and nothing would be rewriten. Do you not like the prime universe? Btw since you mentioned Misery what ever happened to Kathy Bates? She was one of the better actresses for quite some time.

462. CmdrR - February 19, 2014

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/19/patrick-stewart-outed-gay_n_4814994.html

might be worth a post on the main page…

463. Cygnus-X1 - March 25, 2014

That URL gives the impression that the actor is, in fact, gay.

It was just a typo printed by The Guardian. Nothing to see here.

464. gingerly - April 20, 2014

@463

Soooo, you’re telling me Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellan aren’t married…to each other?

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