Review: “Into the Forest I Go” Ends The First Chapter Of ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ With A Bang and A Mystery

REVIEW: “Into the Forest I Go”

Star Trek: Discovery Season 1, Episode 9 – Debuted Sunday November 12th
Written by Bo Yeon Kim and Erika Lippoldt
Directed by Chris Byrne

The midseason finale for Star Trek: Discovery was an action-packed thrill ride that still found time to wear its heart on its sleeve. Everyone upped their game with top-notch acting, designs, music and more to leave the audience anticipating the return in January. Anthony Rapp was a particular standout with so much of the story and emotional punch of the episode falling on Lt. Stamets. With a lot of plates spinning, writers Kim and Lippoldt were able to resolve and reward a number of character and story lines for the season while still finding time to introduce some more. 

Michael Burnham returns to where it all started


A cunning plan

“Into the Forest I Go” didn’t waste any time, jumping right into the Lorca-being-insubordinate scene of the week, to set up our ticking clock. No one, well maybe Saru, bless his terrified Kelpian heart, was surprised when Lorca revealed he was going to defy orders and not abandon the planet Pahvo to the Klingons. Unlike other Star Trek captains, Lorca didn’t waste any time letting the squeamish enter protests or opt to sit out the mission.

And in another classic move, he tasks his crew to do in three hours what the best minds of the Federation haven’t been able to pull off since the war started – namely defeat the Klingon cloaking device. After a round of technobabble – which continues to be Sonequa Martin-Green’s kryptonite – we soon have an insane plan to board a Klingon ship to plant some sensors, followed by spore-jumping 133 times, all to gather some data. So very Star Trek.

Lorca talks to Admiral Exposition (aka Terral)

The last temptation of an astromycologist

The plan requires some convincing on Lorca’s part to get Stamets on board and it’s wonderful to hear a Starfleet captain again talking about the boundless possibilities of exploration. They even throw in the line “you chose to go where no man has gone before,” but it fit so organically and was delivered so seamlessly that it didn’t feel (solely) like fan service.

Part of the beauty of this scene is that we have no idea if Lorca is sincere, as once again, the writers and Jason Isaacs, leave us wondering what his true motivations are. But, it is clear Lorca knows how to get Stamets to go against the will of his partner/doctor and “play roulette with his brain.” Oh, and if you focus too much on the drama and fine acting at hand with Rapp and Isaacs, you may miss the mention of “other, alternative universes,” which feels like a bit of foreshadowing.

With Stamets on board, Lorca gives his St. Crispin’s Day speech to the crew (which was pretty awesome, to be frank), and back to Pahvo we go.

All these things will I give thee…

Back to the scene of the crime

As for our main character, Michael Burnham wields logic like a knife as she convinces Lorca into letting her join Lt. Tyler on the boarding party. Sporting some enhanced outfits that allow them to roam the Klingon sarcophagus ship undetected, they set off to plant some obnoxiously loud and obvious sensors on their clandestine mission. Seriously, what’s the point of masking your life-signs, when your giant glowing Starfleet-branded sensors literally announce themselves?

The sensor planting really becomes a side show for Burnham’s return to this ship where she lost her captain and mentor in episode 2. We soon find out Kol is holding Admiral Cornwell (apparently not dead) although it is a bit odd that Tyler was surprised Kol had any human prisoners. It’s a war, and of course Cornwell was MIA. In addition, they find L’Rell, also not dead, and as soon as Tyler sees the Klingon he says held him captive since the war began, he checks out, lost in terrifying flashbacks. 

Qo’noS to Tyler? Come in Tyler?

Leaving Tyler behind allows for Burnham to fittingly face her demons alone as she returns to where her world fell apart, on the bridge of this Klingon ship. In order to keep the ship from leaving, she reveals herself to Kol and uses her knowledge of Klingon culture to goad him into a challenge.

This is when Martin-Green is in her element, fighting with words and weapons. And finally freed from the burden of speaking Klingon – thanks to the universal translator – Kenneth Mitchell also shows some chops as Kol. Their fight scene was the best choreographed and directed of the series so far. And Burnham’s last-minute jumping beam-out was epic as she drops the mek’leth like a rapper dropping the mic.

Burnham, out!

Klingon love triangle

As has been noted before, there are a number of parallels with L’Rell and Burnham and this episode took that to 11, with both of these women tugging on the emotions of Lt. Tyler. What was only implied before became explicit as we learn Tyler survived so long in prison because he encouraged L’Rell’s affections for him.

In his best episode yet, Shazad Latif makes us believe he was not only the victim of torture, but also sexual assault. Who would have guessed the first nude scene on this show would be a Klingon rape? And Martin-Green also deserves credit here. Unlike the previous episode, this time the emotional dynamic between Burnham and Tyler felt organic, necessary and genuine.

The feels are strong with this one

Dammit, Stamets, I love you

However, when it comes to range and raw emotion conveyed in this episode, the award has to go to Anthony Rapp. He both drove the plot, and delivered the emotional heart as Stamets went from reveling in the science, to struggling in the reaction chamber, to quipping about seeing “La Boheme” with his partner. Speaking of which, Wilson Cruz continues to be a surprise, as he struggles to keep his man alive.

The chemistry with these two is so compelling and so authentic, you don’t even notice Star Trek history going by as they kiss. And even though Kim and Lippoldt telegraphed it – Stamets’ last jump turning him seemingly blind and lost in the strands of his mycelial network – was still a gut-punch.

Even more feels, too many feels

Boom goes the Klingons

The success of the mission on the Klingon ship quickly resolved to a rather brief and one-sided battle. After prepping his eyes for the flash, Lorca watches the Sarcophogus ship go up in a puff of photon torpedoes. Knowing that his light sensitivity came from watching the destruction of his last command at the hands of the Klingons makes it all the more satisfying, and that is just one example of how Kim and Lippoldt add subtle character and lore layers throughout the episode.

Of course, the mission to that ship was also a big moment for Burnham’s redemption arc as well as she literally brought home what remained of her lost Captain, getting a needed nod of approval from her Shenzhou shipmate, Saru. Maybe it would have been too much for her to give Saru the badge, but it could  have been a nice callback to the last episode when Saru laments to her “You keep taking things from me.”

We are led to believe that this is the beginning of the end of the war with the Klingons, a war that is said to be the focus of the first season. And to be honest, it won’t be missed. The show has never really sold us on this war. Sure there is some lip service to the “trillions of lives” that are at stake, but Discovery in general has failed to make the war seem real or relevant. It has served to further some character moments, but it is time to move on.  

Buh bye

Guys, where are we?

“Into the Forest I Go” was not the best episode of the season (in my book that is still “Lethe”) but it is possibly second best and certainly fits in with what has been a surprisingly strong mid-season for Discovery. It is almost inconceivable that this show would have ended its first chapter (as originally planned) with last week’s episode which was a good stand-alone, but left too many things hanging. Episode 9 offers a much more satisfying finale feeling. However, there is an irony that Pahvo, last week’s strange planet that called the Klingons and Federation together, played absolutely no part in this episode except for being a giant damsel in distress.

And of course once this episode settled you in with that “finale feeling” by having just enough resolutions, it opened up a whole new set of things to explore for the second chapter of the first season. Stamets final jump with the spore drive didn’t go so well for him, or the ship, as the Discovery ended up in a mysterious place. Although, with Captain Lorca, one has to wonder if he knows more about where they are than he is letting on. And that is as good as any cliffhanger to keep you interested until January 7th, when Discovery warps back into action with six more episodes.

We aren’t in Kansas any more, Mr. Saru

Random thoughts and easter eggs

  • Cadet Decker gets another shoutout, will we ever meet him and is it Will Decker?
  • We finally got to see the little shoulder lights in action on the tactical vests.
  • The life-signs pattern simulators seem really handy. Is this another piece of Trek tech that lives only in an episode only to be forgotten?
  • In the future, people really need to figure out locks that can’t be picked by prying off the panels and fiddling or cutting the wires. 


Star Trek: Discovery is available on CBS All Access on in the US and airs in Canada on the Space Channel. It is available on Netflix outside the USA and Canada.

Keep up with all the Star TrekDiscovery news at TrekMovie.

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I thought this was a really great episode even with some of the plot-holes. I can’t wait to see where the Discovery has ended up and really hope Lorca survives to stay as captain for as long as the show is on. I hope we see more of Kayla the navigator as well but that’s only because I have a bit of a crush on her for some reason. Oh, by the way, Dammit, Stamets, I Love You has crossed my mind often. I thought I was the only Rocky Horror fan twisted enough to think that. Nice job on the review!!!

Another clue: while all other’s destination is “071-MARK-” plus three digits, the last one goes to “unknown”.

I think Lorca wishes to save his old crew and hoping in an alternate universe they are alive and he doesnt need to blow them up.

That’s a really cool thought. I wonder if he lost a loved one when his ship was destroyed. Not that sacrificing your crew wouldn’t be devistating enough for any captain.

Thats actually a really intriguing idea and would make his incredible reluctance to lose his command all the more fitting. And makes him ultimately a really GOOD guy. Not only wanting to win the war but save his dead crew.

Actually…thats a really great idea. It would also explain why he pulls in people like Stamets and Burnham because he needs people to complete his ultimate mission.

So perhaps trying to go back in time or into a universe where his crew is saved, they accidentally fall into the Mirror?

I think it’s only a good idea if it’s an alternate “timeline” because in his universe the crew will always have died. He would have to go back in time in “his” universe to save them

If its a time jump and he can save his former ship, but it potentially disrupts the timeline enough that their victory over the Ship of the Dead never happened, it presents another moral dilemma for Lorca…

At some point we’re going to see Saru step up and take command from Lorca and show us what he can do in the big chair.

My gut tells me that Lorca is so protective of Burnham, like when he hedged on allowing her to go to Klingon ship, because he knows he needs here for his endgame, perhaps like a trade to someone for the lives of his crew or something to that effect.

Yes. That’s what I was thinking about too. Maybe Lorca isn’t from an alternate or “mirror” universe, but is thinking that getting there will undo his sins of the past. And if so, I would bet Cornwell plays an important role here as well.

You know, that is an amazing idea and would fit in with what he said in the beginning.

His mission: “To win the war, to bring everybody home. Safe and sound”

Lorca wants to bring everybody home.
Pity that he didn’t extend that logic to the crew of the Buran.

Maybe she is an enemy in the other universe he has to fight ’till death. That would explain his reaction when ‘sleeping’ with her in one bed.

That reminds me too–what’s the wreckage we see in the final shot? Is that Lorca’s old destroyed ship again?

Also, I’ve been trying to put my finger on it all afternoon, but it’s anyone else getting a Nexxus vibe? Maybe a more benign Soran who suffers from trauma just wants to get to a happier place at all costs?

Lorca speculated that it was debris from klingon ships.

So Lorca volunteered that information? But no one seconded?

Wouldn’t his distressed look suggest he knows better?

Holy crap, somethoughts, what a great idea!

Interesting, a raging case of survivors remorse. That might explain his interest in Burnham, and the loss of her captain.

Burnham didn’t need to give Saru the comm badge; she already gave him the telescope.

@Tonyd- I thought the same thing. If anything they could have had a scene of her offering it to him and him declining. But it wouldnt have felt needed. She gave Saru the telescope because she didnt feel she deserved it and he did. But the com badge is all hers. A symbol of her redemption.

I completely agree.

Lorca *knew* he wasn’t getting any “Legion of Honor” medal. And if you freeze frame him tapping commands on his captain’s chair padd, you can briefly see that he’s entering an “OVERRIDE” command of some sort. He may not have meant to send the _Discovery_ to where they wound up, but I think he definitely had no intention of returning to Starbase 46.

I caught that as well… I didn’t get a glimpse at first but it stood out to me that the shot of the chair panel was out of the ordinary. I scanned back and sure enough…

you can tell by his face that said no way in hell we going back to star base 46

Glad you spotted this… no one else seems too. He knows about the parrallell universe maybe he’s mapping his way home

Yea, the whole “Legion of Honor” felt very much like a ruse.
As the old joke goes: “‘Vulcans are not capable of lies,’ lied the Vulcan.” But Terral is an extremely bad liar.

I totally wouldn’t blam Lorca for NOT wanting to go home. Pulling a Janeway seems to be a much better option than being court-martialed for disobey. ;)

Hmmm I didnt get that the Vulcan was lying. I thought the medal was real. But you’re suggesting it was a ruse to get Lorca back to take his command away? Thats possible…but I mean he DID just deal the largest blow to the enemy. Seems to be doing alright.

But it came after being told Cornwell will make a full recovery, and I immediately wondered if she told her cohorts/superiors about Lorca…

I think both. He would be honored and subsequently removed from his command.

Yes, Cornwall cares about Lorca, she wants him to get the help he needs. Regardless of what heroism he has displayed or done, she will want him to get help and remove him from command.

@some, As Lorca said, Stamets was the real hero. But I got some underpinnings of “Lorca’s up to something” and Stamets is usually sensitive to that too. I noticed a bit of Stamets side-eye thar.

I think Cornwell wants Lorca to step down long enough to get help, but I don’t think her aim is to remove him from command, only commanding in his present condition.

I get more from Lorca than just a bad guy or just a guy out for his own. I think there are shades of grey and I almost got the impression he DID mean it when he said Stamets deserved it but maybe not for the obvious reason. If Lorca isnt from “here” perhaps he feels like he’s not THE Lorca or is just a “visitor” and really doesnt deserve and doesnt want it because its secondary to what is really important to him (where as their official objective is what is important to Stamets and the rest)

Caught that when re-watching last night. I paused it, there was a list of spore drive jumps numbered 0-132 (zero based indices recording the 133 jumps around the Klingon ship, I can accept that being used to counting from zero as a programmer). He clearly overrides the last destination to SB42 “Override – Lorca, G.”, to a location “unknown” “Spore Jump 133 – UNKNOWN”

I tip my hat you guys! I thought something was odd about that scene but I didn’t dig deeper.

Really enjoyed the episode and am definitely planning to binge-rewatch the first 9 episodes a time or two before January 7!

I enjoyed Burnham’s fight with the Klingon. Had kind of a cheesy comic book charm to it, but overall this felt rushed to me. I still struggle to care about these characters and their war. Hoping for bigger and better things next, uh, mid-winter season. Jumping around the multiverse sounds more interesting.

Oh and it’s weird how much more Klingon the Klingons sounded speaking English. Less stilted anyway.

Also, ZERO issue with enunciating. It was a myth they had trouble speaking through their make up. It was just the Klingon language. Kol sounded great speaking English.

good point about the trouble speaking myth

I thought it was more of a logical conclusion than a myth, but perhaps the dialect coach decided Klingon should have a more guttural sound when spoken?

I think they were speaking slower. But the myth was that the actors could not speak clearly through the make up and thats obviously not true.

Agreed and I could also look around at the amazing architecture of the set rather than focusing on the subtitles and missing cool details. Me thinks its getting tedious on the actors to learn their lines in Klingon. I felt the drama was more palpable understanding through the universal translator.

That’s it until January 7th. I don’t know if it’s a bit harder to digest the show because I’m watching it on my phone, but I think last week and this week’s episodes both were very much epic cliffhangers, and therefore part of an unfinished narrative, even more than usual. I liked both episodes, but I don’t entirely know how to place them in context yet.

What this episode does is not so much tie loose threads up, but tantalize us with our expectations. Each scene with Stamets sets up a mix of doom, noble sacrifice, compassion, just as each scene with Tyler shows a similar mix, as it’s fully aware of the ambiguity the fans have picked up on. It’s as if Tyler is asking L’Rell on behalf of us “What did you do to me?” No matter what the situation with Tyler truly is, this episode graphically deals with sexual violence against a man, and the PTSD involved in that, a first for Star Trek on multiple fronts.

The episode itself was compared by Ted Sullivan to “Balance of Terror,” but I see greater parallels to “Apocalypse Rising” and “The Enterprise Incident,” as well as “Hard Time,” “Zero Hour,” and “Sacrifice of Angels.”

But again, there was so much about this episode which felt inevitable, and the episode telegraphed its inevitability in order to play with those expectations. Like with “Zero Hour,” it appears they’ve set up their return to have a nearly unrelated adventure that might also tie up the rest of the threads.

We’ll have to wait and see though…

Apple and Samsung both have adapters that allow you to connect them to a TV via HDMI. I have two that I always have with me when I travel. Hopefully this helps you see the big picture, lol.

Same here. Works like a charm and you don’t have to deal with casting issues.

Or simply over the air via Miracast like my Lumia 950XL with Continuum. If your TV doesn’t have it: Miracast HDMI dongles are relatively cheap.

@Tay Dervis

There is an adapter that will mirror my phone straight to my tv directly? Dang! Wish I knew about that 9 weeks ago. Think the glitches I get could be casting related?

More likely related to that than All Access sucking for just you and a few others.

mine does hiccup a bit but not enough to complain about. I usually let the stream queue up a bit and I’m ok.

Dude! Watch it on TV. Its great! And so much visual greatness. I actually purposely paid attention this week to the image quality. Now Im watching in cable in Canada and Im no expert. I have a 4K TV and I thought it looked really good. Not 4K Blu Ray on my Oppo great. But definitely as good as anything I’ve seen on broadcast TV.

the sets are gorgeous and the Klingon bridge, particularly so.

Its always difficult to review something seen once or even twice. When season is complete it will be interesting how it stands out as a complete story.

Rape is a war tactic. Thank you for including it in the review. Many others skimmed over it or didnt mention it. It causes ptsd and infects our sexuality. Im pleased the writers(talented super women)dealt with rape ptsd in a way that was closer to reality and on a path to healing. With comfort and hugs, not “lets have sex to fix youre ptsd” like so many other stories do. When Tyler knelt/fell to his knees in front of L’rell, he said something like “what do i do” or “what did you do”. What did he say?

what did you do

we don’t know he was raped. The torture, more than likely, was his surgery conversion from klingon to human. The sex could’ve been consensual as far as we know. “What did you do” is probably a reference to his conversion

IMHO, it’s both. If Tyler is indeed Voq, then it stands to reason that the “everything” he would have to have given up would include his memories of ever being klingon. If the “spy sister” did indeed brainwash him to believe himself human, they would also have to imprint some real memories. The “rape” then would be considered part of this indoctrination. It’s entirely possible that it was part of L’Rell’s plan to have Tyler hate Klingons. Spy work is notoriously gray in its morality, so rape would not be out of the question.

I agree that the sex or rape is ambiguous as of yet. We aren’t shown enough to be sure. However, if the brainwashing is as thorough as the physical alterations, then Tyler believes he was raped. We still don’t see L’Rell’s endgame here. We last saw Voq on the Shenzhou with L’Rell. I believe she’s into him, but the feelings are not reciprocated. So at the very least L’Rell gets to live out a fantasy with Tyler.

Perhaps. Maybe they felt they needed something so hideous to cover up Tyler’s real memories. But if the end game is for L’Rell to reveal the truth and have Ash as an ally, he seems to really hate her right now…so there must be somethng else.

Im almost betting the relationship was consensual but he’s misinterpreting the memories. So we get the anguish of him later realising he was a willing participant (and not just to stay alive) and is anguished again.

The conflict will be over his love for L’Rell and his new love for Michael. Seems ripe for a sacrifice (which serves the Michael character going forward too, not to have a boyfriend around) but he’s a great character and actor and I’d love for him to stay next season and have to deal with the reality (especially if he’s actually Klingon).

I’ve been thinking the same. When L’Rell said to Voq that he would have to lose everything she really meant it. It seems pretty clear now that they’ve gone the total recall route with Ash Tyler effectively being the Douglas Quaid to Voq’s Carl Hauser. I suspect they’ve imprinted the memories and personality of the real Tyler onto Voq and that he is being kept alive as a POW potentially allowing them to retain the character as a member of the crew in season 2.

The rape is really interesting.

We KNOW Ash lied to Lorca when he said he’d been L’Rell’s play thing for 7 months because shew as trapped on the damaged Ship of the Dead. So whats going on here?

Either she and Voq and a sexual relationship and those memories are being misinterpreted by Ash’s damaged mind as rape.

Or Ash was a prisoner of L’Rell’s on the ship of the dead before going to the prison ship. But wasnt his dialog specific to being a prison on THAT ship for 7 months or was it a prisoner of L’Rells??

Or as part of the Voq/Ash conversion, the rape is implanted for some reason, to break him or for use later (the trigger for his manchurian awakening?)

All these are valid questions. We simply haven’t enough data to be certain.

L’Rell is the biggest question of all. She turns up at the most opportune times, seemingly out of nowhere. I don’t think we can possibly believe a word she says, even to other Klingons. She’s prisoner on the Sarcophagus by choice. She changes location offscreen, so we only see a small portion of what’s really going on with her.

I think she’s playing a much longer con than just the war. She’s working towards a greater, long-term goal than just glory and honour in battle. I don’t know what that is, but it’s probably even beyond T’Kuvma’s nonsense.

Chancellor L’Rell

Disagree. Too small for L’Rell. I don’t think the visibility a political leadership requires would be welcome. I don’t have a good alternative though.

We can assume there is no real political structure for the Klingons thus far. So becoming the one unifying leader since Kahless would be pretty big, Especially if its not Kol’s dictator vision but one of more nuanced leadership, which we saw with the High Council as a legitimate political body etc.

I think the PTSD and sexual assault treatment gives the show a depth I didn’t see coming. For one, it’s so incredibly timely. In fact them dealing with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder gives the Klingon War plot a far more impactful purpose. The complexities involved with the sexual assault here is the case with many sexual assaults I think. The fact is that they aren’t always black and white. In any case it’s compelling that they chose to use a man as the victim of this abuse. Lord knows we’ve had enough with seeing TNG’s Counselor Troy being the repeated victim of something like this. So this is fresh and timely take.

The spaceship, sci Fi stuff is fun but that Stammets character is getting on my nerves. I hope they get rid of him and introduce a new, proper Chief Engineer like Scotty or Geordie or B’lanna or O’Brien or Tucker; anybody but that Stammets guy.

No way! Stammets is one of the best characters here.

No, he isn’t. He is definitely the Jar Jar Binks, Wesley Crusher of this new series. Just awful.

I think he’s the best character on the show! Each to their own I guess.

Opinions vary. You can think one way and everyone else alive can think another. lol

Especially in Trek fandom, TUP :^)

He’s a fine quirky science person, but not Chief.

I’ve been a bit puzzled by the Engineer role on this ship; Stamets is in charge in Engineering because his science is what drives the Disco’s engine, but yeah, who’s in charge of maintenance of the physical plant? [And I don’t mean the plants as in mycelia, wink-wink]

Some MCPO we haven’t been introduced to yet……..

Agreed, Nebula. He broke my heart last night. Not only his scene with Culber and his suffering during the jumps, but his dialogue with, and mistrust of, Lorca.

Stammets has quickly become one of my favorites on the show. [Shrug]

I don’t believe he is the chief engineer is he?

I don’t think he could be – but if he is not, why haven’t we met the chief engineer?

I guess the same reason we haven’t seen the Chief Medical Officer

Because this isn’t the Enterprise. Disco’s command structure is unique and experimental. On a traditional ship of the line like Enterprise, we would see the clear hierarchy of captain, science officer, cmo, chief engineer, security, etc. Disco seems to have been a giant lab before Lorca takes command. He hands out assignments on a subjective basis. He’s extremely dictatorial, even more so than Kirk. Kirk would never have pressed Burnham into service. At least not without consulting his established team. Lorca supercedes the chain of command at every opportunity. Some may call this a meritocracy, but I disagree. Lorca does not follow Starfleet protocol for the advancement of staff. He picks and chooses at will. If we want a real-world comparison, Lorca is much closer to a revolutionary leader like Che Guevara or Fidel Castro, where Kirk is a post-renaissance European prince like Henry V.

There was a bio thing that referred to him as Chief engineer but I think it was Rapp that said he was NOT chief and the bio image might have been a visual error.

Good points, why haven’t we seen more senior staff? And is it just me, or does Discovery seem to be very light on crew? You hardly ever see anyone, except a few jogging, in the mess hall, etc. Budget, I imagine.

The crew is there, just not in the corridors. We’re also seeing the ship from the perspective of “specialist” officers. They aren’t on the standard duty roster. I think if we followed Saru around a bit more, we’d see more daily ops routines and staff.

Everyone loves Scotty and so do I but he was so two dimensional. Geordie is more complex but Stammets is multi dimensional in his complexities. It’s cool that Stammets is card to love yet Dr. Culber loves him so deeply. That’s human. That’s also love. On this ship the warp drive Chief isn’t important. It’s an experimental ship with an experimental “mad” scientist behind this experimental drive.

It’s not really a good idea to compare characters from different eras of tv. TV storytelling has evolved over the years. Scotty and Geordie were great for what their shows needed. Value judgements aren’t helpful at all.

I like your “mad scientist” analogy though. There’s a ton of “Frankenstein” throughout this arc. How many medical monsters have we seen so far? “Alice in Wonderland” is key to this story arc as well. The minute Stamets’ eyes turned white, I thought “white rabbit.” I think all fans would be well-served in the next month and a half to re-read those two novels. (I have an English lit degree, so I’m always seeing classic lit in tv and movies.)

God! Those characters were so dull compared with Stammets. I dislike all the Berman Treks and really like Discovery. Seriously, for me, this is the first really good spinoff made from the original Star Trek!

I just watched the last two episodes in succession without commercials and I feel satisfied. I really wanted to see the sarcophagus ship explode more longer and in many more ways “just ’cause.” But actually this final episode wrapped up so many things and leaves us open to new things that I think the fans can say, “they did it.” Despite all the many true and valuable criticisms, this project is so obviously trying to be something new and yet totally Star Trek. Good job!

If only this episode was 1/4th as good as this review makes it out to be. If only.

Hey there killjoy, how’s it going? Nice to see you suitably disappointed by the latest episode. I must wonder though, if you hate discovery so much, why continue to watch it?

Because Star Trek, aside from TOS, has a long history of lackluster to mediocre to just plain messy first seasons. Maybe he’s waiting for it to rise to a level of greatness we all know Trek can go. I know I am.

Yes in the meantime lets moan about every thing as if anyone is forcing him to watch.

Then maybe just start again at second season if this season is so awful for people?

It’s not awful. It’s uneven. This is why I keep watching. I never know when a good one is going to pop up. Again, that’s just how Star Trek first seasons go.

And if people have a different opinion than yours, so what? That’s life.

The issue is, I think, that while you enjoy the show but have issues with it and you quantify them, Jonboc is just trolling.

I haven’t the time or inclination to dwell into the many issues I have with this series. The bottom line is, it isn’t very engaging, exciting or good. is it bad? No. How so many of you are enamored with what is little more than mediocrity in a pretty package is beyond me. All I can think of is perhaps you haven’t really been exposed to much excellent television for comparison. But I’ll continue to pay for it and watch it to see if there is some thread of genius being woven that I just can’t see at the moment. Maybe it’ll surprise me. If nothing else, the mirror universe is ahead…that’s always fun. Usually. Discovery is such a jumbled mess. I’m not taking anything for granted.

Conversely, why heap praise upon something just because it’s called Star Trek? Are you guys that hard up and want Trek on TV so bad that you can’t see the Forrest for the trees?? Sure seems like it. Like I said, the show really isn’t that good. And I mean just television in general. We won’t even get into it being good STar Trek. Maybe the second season will have some direction. Time will tell.

And THIS is what makes you a troll. Its one thing if you don’t like it, its another when you question others who do.

But yet you will watch it anyway with the ‘hope’ you will like it? I guess your life is that boring if you are forcing yourself to watch a show you clearly think is beneath us.

…don’t hate it…I’m indifferent. Which, for a Star Trek series, is even more the pity.

Dude your shtick is growing so effing old!! Do you enjoy being a troll? If you don’t know what it is look it up

It’s no shtick, I don’t care for uninteresting mediocrity. You do. Take a bow.

It’s no shtick, I don’t care for uninteresting mediocrity. You do. Take a bow.
YMOV, but I think you’re being troll-y over what is a difference of opinion. Don’t condemn other people for enjoying what you don’t. “Uninteresting mediocrity … you do … take a bow”? My instinctive response was pretty visceral and unprintable. So, yeah, troll-y on your part.

Yes, there are plenty of imperfections and some plot holes and mystery science [I could go on] but there have been plenty of the same issues in EVERY other Trek series.

This show is interesting and very well acted. If it’s not 100% well written, Jonboc, no series ever has been. Episodes, yes, but not an entire series.

Thank you Marja.

Thats what bothers me about people like Jonboc. He can have his own opinions of the show, its when he tells the rest of us we should hate it as much as him. And yet will be watching every episode regardless. People like this are annoying.

So Let me get this straight….I’m ‘trolling’ because I responded to a poster that labeled me a troll for expressing my displeasure with the series. Interesting.

You’re trolling because you say the same thing over and over again with very little insight (to be fair, I DO like some of your posts when you’re not snarkily playing the “im smarter than you because I dont like the show” schtick). And you insult people for liking it.

But the weird part is, if the show sucks but people like it, so be it. its really weird to hate the show but hate-watch it every week AND take so much time to tell everyone how dumb they are and how smart you are. Normal people dont do that. So thats why people think you’re a troll.

Not weird at all. Again, never said I hate it. I don’t think it’s very good. And yes, I’m absolutely puzzled by any praise put upon it, especially if you’ve watched other, higher caliber serialized programming. How you can put Discovery on the same playing field as Game of Thrones or Deadwood, or even the tamer serialized dramas on network television like Lost, Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5 or 24 is beyond me. I get it. People like it. I just really don’t understand why. Because, in comparison, it isn’t very good. It’s quite the enigma.
And I’ll keep holding it to those high standards. And when the series delivers, like the 3rd episode, I’ll give it props. But it gets no free pass from me just because it says Star Trek in the opening credits. When it is bad, be it bad pacing, bad direction, bad acting, bad writing, bad action sequences, bad CGI…I will call it out. This thing costs, what? 8 million an episode?? I don’t see motion picture quality in the writing, acting and story structure… just in sets and props. Not unlike your continuous posts railing against Bob Orci and Into Darkness. You had similar concerns and you were quite constant in your expression. Were you trolling? No. You were giving your opinions. Often. lol This is no different…except every hour merits new discussion. Maybe I’ll like it, love it, or hate it. Only time will tell.

Im fascinated that you and the other couple of haters are riding a self fulfilling prophecy about Discovery. Its really interesting. I doubt you’re even watching so it adds to the over-all intrigue of why you’d waste your time here.

Oh I’m watching it. And paying for it…in more ways than one lol. I don’t care, however, if I see it as soon as it drops on Sunday…that alone, is a big red flag….and I’m enjoy The Twilight Zone a lot more. That says something as well. Try watching a few of those to reacquaint yourself with good creative writing…

You strike me as someone who is very opinionated and probably dislike most people until you get to know them. While some us may have our hearts on our sleeves when discussing Star Trek, the rest of us tend to see the positive first, until proven otherwise.
IMO Discovery’s direction is brilliant, and stands to become the best first season of any episode.

Correction *Series not episode…

Loved the La Boheme reference. :)

My wife: “it’s from Rent! And he was in Rent! I love this show”
Haha, I had no idea

I had the same reaction as your wife. LOL

They were both in Rent – Wilson Cruz played Angel on Broadway but wasn’t part of the original cast.

Same! Just added a new note about it not having seen yours, Ashley!

Enjoyed the episode. Again maybe not as great as all the hype lead us to believe but I liked it a lot. Once again though I can’t say I loved it sadly but it was solid for me. It felt like a DS9 episode in many ways. I’m curious to see where they ended up although more than likely it will be the mirror universe given they alluded to the spore drive can jump to parallel universes.

Frankly I think it would be cool if we see a Trek show that actually explore other universes as well, something no Trek show (or films) has done yet or attempted to do.


Perhaps Lorca sent them to the Prime timeline and Discovery takes place there from here on out? ;)

I thought about that too. But they have maintained from the beginning its Prime. If thats not the case, thats fine, as long as its a good story. But the problem will exploring other universes that look different is creating new sets, props, SFX and costumes. If it was for multiple episodes then its probably something they could justify budget-wise. But I dont see them visiting multiple other universes.

And people hoping they jump to the “real” Prime Universe will be disappointed when it still doesnt look like TOS. They can change uniforms and basic sets but they wont have a series that looks like the 60’s.

That’s the challenge with wanting to do a show 10 years before Kirk that is being made in 2017. Star Trek has always been about projecting our future from when the show was created. What we are seeing is the future projected from 2017. TOS made in the 60s was a future prediction from that time.

I just pretend this is 10 years before the universe of TMP.

Yeah and Im fine with that. Thats why I didnt want to go beyond nemesis because then you go from projecting OUR future to projecting THEIR future and you get into the realm of fantasy.

I still don’t buy that argument. Nemises is a century over TOS. Its not like they had to go centuries above that one. In fact if they just stayed to the actual time lapse it would only been 15 years since the film. They could’ve started there, especially since basically everything in Discovery would fit in that era just fine, certainly more so than the era they are in now.

@Tiger – true and maybe to fans the idea of the continuing voyages of Riker or whatever seem interesting. But I would strongly suspect CBS would shy away from a post-nemesis era that looked more or less like TNG. They’d want it be really different

You can get away with that when “updating” the 60s especially when it fits into the continuity of Enterprise and the films. But to take the much more recent TNG films, jump 15 years ahead and have it all look remarkably different?

And then is still the matter of canon. People think going ahead frees you of canon. Not so. It makes it easier to change things. But if you change the Klingons its not like everyone would say ‘well, its been 15 years so there has been a sudden species-wide evolutionary change in appearance’. Plus, we’ve seen the future and if it looks different, uh oh CANON!

My biggest thing is creatively. Do I think they could go 10 years past Nemesis and make it good? Yes. Can they go 100 years past Nemesis and make it good? Yes. Will they? Honestly, I felt they grew more and more reliant on technobabble and humanizing all the aliens they encountered and became lazy.

Would it be different with new people? Sure. But like the writer said about Discovery, sometimes its harder to play in an existing sandbox but its also challenging and when writers are challenged, they often rise to the occaison.

Going post Nemesis is too lazy in my opinion.

But we’ll never know. And while I am on record liking the Discovery era, my first choice was Enterprise B.

Sorry TUP, I still don’t remotely buy that. I don’t think CBS cared when or where the show took place. It only takes place here because this is what Brian Fuller himself wanted. In fact he said when he came on board they had no ideas about what the show would be about or any demands, they simply followed what he wanted.

We do know they shut down the anthology idea but my guess it was due to money and changing the cast every year.

And the show doesn’t have to look anymore like TNG than Discovery has to look like TOS, which obviously it doesn’t. It can still be its own thing. I’m not sure why people would think other wise. But at least the show would actually fit in the timeline a bit more and not feel so distracting to people as it does now. Its just funny how it doesn’t feel like it fits in this time period at all, from the ship designs, technology and uniforms. But if you put it in a post Voyager setting the show would feel fine. Nearly all the complaints of it being too advanced and not fitting TOS would go away tomorrow. The only real issue would be the look of the Klingons obviously but Discovery herself would be right at home.

But these things have been argued enough. Its in this era so either you accept it or you don’t and I do. I don’t see any real reason for them placing it there but its there now so you just roll with it even if you’re not too happy about it.

The novelization notes that Starfleet deploys multiple ship, interior and uniform designs simultaneously, as a kind of continuous fleetwide test to see what works better. Thus, the Constitution-class ships have their own uniforms, the rest of Starfleet has the blue uniforms as an evolution from the 2151 Enterprise / 2233 Kelvin eras. Whether or not you consider this canon is personal preference, but it’s a nice bit of handwaving around practical and aesthetic issues in TV production.

But then why is everyone at Starfleet command wearing the uniforms from Discovery? And yet on TOS everyone at Starfleet command happens to be wearing uniforms from Enterprise. I get people want to really explain things but its creates too many other problems when trying to do it. That said, sure people can tell themselves that but just based on what we see on the screen doesn’t seem to be true.

@Tiger – I agree. To me, it doesnt really matter unless we see the Enterprise or Defiant with the Discovery unis.

I can buy, quite fine, that either the Discovery era unies are “test unis” or the TOS era ones are. The Discovery era uniforms could have been used for ten years already and coming to their end, we dont know.

They DO fit the general pattern of Enterprise-Kelvin. And we know they created TOS style unis for Discovery and decided not to use them. I suspect it was 1) not wanting to be too similar to the films and 2) if they are meaning to transition closer to TOS visual style, they can keep the unis for later rather then jumping on it.

if that’s the case all of them already exist in the Prime Timeline. Sounds very confusing to me

I’m with Captain Janeway, I hate time paradox problems.

I posted this comment already under the previous article in response to a discussion whether this show has a meaning. Having been about the last one to comment, I am not sure if anyone still reads that thread. So hope it is ok to repost it here because I would love to hear other people’s thoughts about it.

There is a recurring theme that I’ve noticed resurfacing throughout the show: Fear.
It first struck me with the concept of Saru. Then there is Tilly representing anxieties. There is PTSD being represented by Ash. There is a captain possibly motivated by the fear of losing his ship. Loss of or fear for the safety of someone dear is represented by Dr. Culber and the death of Captain Georgiou. On the other hand, there is recklessness (i.e. a lack of fear) represented by Lorca. There is also Pahvo endangering itself due to a lack of fear. Fear being conquered by scientific curiosity is being represented by Stamets. And in the main character Burnham, fear is always conquered by logic.

One could say that fear is pretty much a topic of our times. So is the moral ambiguity and sometimes imperfect nature of actions on the show: One could call it out as bad writing that noone seems to further care about the fate of Pahvo in the face of Klingon reinforcements, or why Lorca did not anticipate potential PTSD when sending Tyler to the ship of the dead. Or one could call it a depiction of reality where decision-making can be contextual and opportunistic, and where it makes sense that Lorca would turn a blind eye to PTSD issues because he’s got the same problem.
But I guess that’s also a reason for the criticism: Not wanting a mirror of reality, but rather something that provides relief from and inspiration for overcoming the shortcomings of reality. I think the topic of fear is very relevant, but I hope that in terms of meaning, the show will further develop a positive message about dealing with fear. I cannot quite grasp yet what kind of beast this show is, I think it still has to develop a more distinctive nature.

Saru made me think that the emotional concept of alien characters in different Trek series might be relevant to society at the time:
In the 60s there is Spock, basically an emotionally repressed alien. It reminds me of the conflict between the more emotionally repressed older generations and the emotional liberation of younger generations culminating in the flower-power era.
In TNG, Picard’s diplomacy represents a counter concept to an era of cold-war warmongering, and empathy is embodied in Betazoid Troi.
Now there is fear represented by Saru.

If you have ideas how this could apply to DS9 & Voyager, I’d like to read about them.

…Back to Discovery: the entire storyline depends on the fact that Klingons have cloaking technology but no CCTV, not even in cells on a dedicated prison ship…Can somebody please explain that away?

An interesting perspective that the show is really about fear… and not something that I had noticed until you pointed it out. It is probably why the earlier episodes featured one that was more like Doom than Star Trek (capturing the tardigrade or whatever it was called). It seems an unlikely emotion to anchor a Star Trek series around so there must be a good reason why they would do this when normally the tone is about hope for a better future.

It’s not just Klingon vessels that have no CCTV but also Star Wars evil empire / first order bases do not use this either. Even on installations designed to put a force field around a planet to protect it from attack. So maybe scifi writers generally don’t like it if infiltrators can be discovered easily?

Sort of reminds me of the story from the TOS days. A fan wrote a letter suggesting that seatbelts get installed on the bridge chairs. The response to that’s was “If we put seatbelts on the chairs the actors couldn’t fall out of them”.

:-) LOL, your comments have convinced me to maybe let this issue rest. I am just going to tell myself that the House of Mo’Kai has been pitching CCTV for ages, but no self-respecting Klingon technician would ever engage in dishonorable activities such as spying on your prisoners (naturally excluding cloaking tech and double-crossing your enemies). I can almost convince myself that “CCTV is dishonorable because it would mean my authority is too weak for ruling without it, and I am too cowardly to face to my opponents.” Alright.
But hopefully no chatty flashy top secret sensors in season 2?

Klingons feel fearless [even if this is not justified]. Why worry about intruders? “We will crush them.”

Recursion It seems an unlikely emotion to anchor a Star Trek series around

TOS was anchored in JFK-style optimism
TNG was anchored in tolerance and diplomacy
DS9 was the only Trek series that really delved deeply into wars and the politics surrounding them. (TOS and TNG explored them, but not to DS9’s extent.) This was in the days of “Desert Storm” when we saw SCUD missiles and US military forces every night on CNN.

FEAR is a strong feature in today’s political discussions. It features largely in my personal conversations about government policy (“is the US going to turn fascist?” and the like) and America’s place in the world.

So as Webguest says, each Trek series is a product of its decade, reflecting on the societal issues of the day. I grew up an optimist; I am turning pessimistic; perhaps DISCO’s writers are feeling the same.

Desert Storm was in the middle of TNG, DS9 was solidly though Clinton boom times while Voyager was almost done by the time of 9/11.

Doesn’t change the thrust if the shows but they weren’t quite as attached to the zeitgeist as you suggest.

Thank you everyone for your interesting replies! Relating to what AdAstraPerAspera writes below (“These are characters who are exploring themselves primarily”, fear also connects to this being the age of stress-related desease and focussing on self. I was so surprised when sensory overload/hypervigilance came up with Saru in ep. 8 which is an actual symptom of stress related desease and can be interpreted as a sharpening of senses to better detect threats.

Webguest, One could call it out as bad writing that noone seems to further care about the fate of Pahvo in the face of Klingon reinforcements

Are you speaking of Episode 8, or 9? My impression was that they were going to fight the Klingons to keep them from destroying Pahvo. Did I miss something? Were Klingon reinforcements coming in at the end?

Yes, they were coming in after the ship of dead was destroyed. They were the reason for Stamets offering one last jump instead of leaving on Warp.

“Good night, captain.”
“I don’t know… I just don’t know…”

(Spock and Kirk in: Star Trek V)

Star Trek (ep) IX: Lorca’s Voyage ‘Home.’

Very disappointed with this series so far. Not only is it not good Star Trek, it’s not even good compared to other shows it wants to emulate.

The actors are fine but far from outstanding. The visuals are fine, but nothing to take your breath away. Just on par with everything else that’s done today. The action and the general pacing of the action are odd and amateur at best. When I heard this was going to be a war arc with the Klingons, I thought I would at least be served so much lasers that it would cure my myopia. Didn’t happen, far from it. They say they spent some 8 million dollars an episode. If I was the IRS, I would start checking transactions on CBS offshore accounts, because I don’t know where they put that money, but it sure wasn’t on the product shown on screen. Additionally, the main music theme is atrociously plain. The Nu-Klingons are terrible. The black alert spore drive principle and the ship’s mighty morphin power rangers flip are embarrassingly juvenile. The whole pseudo science so far is just dumb. The writing is the worst of all, just incredibly stupid, lazy and convenient.

I can’t believe some people here are praising this show. I thought most Trek fans were more intelligent than the average TV crowd. Seems not… and that is the most depressing thing. In any case, if Discovery is to be salvaged, this whole production team needs to be fired and replaced by competent creators, not just a bunch of corporate boot kissers.

I’ll agree that the music could be improved on- the theme is nice, but it’s not exactly rousing or thrilling as say the themes to First Contact or Voyager was. It never really goes anywhere.

As for the rest of your comments, I have to disagree entirely. It *is* good Star Trek, it’s just not the Star Trek of the TNG era- and nor should it be because that formula is dated and was driven into the ground. These are characters who are exploring themselves primarily: Michael Burnham is finally reconnecting her humanity, Paul Stamets is exploring new aspects of his personality, Ash Tyler is discovering who he is now he is no longer a captive etc. It’s a study of the human condition- which is what Star Trek is at it’s heart.

You do seem rather aggressive with your thoughts- calling the production team ‘corporate boot kissers’ is flat out rude, as is the attack on the writing team. I think the writing has been uniformly great when dealing with the Discovery side of things. I’ll even say that while not as strong, the Klingon scenes are very good and not as bad as everyone else is making out. I am all for people expressing their thoughts on the show, especially those who disagree with me- I just don’t see why you have to be so rude and aggressive.

“… if Discovery is to be salvaged …” we will not see another series for decades. But luckily, the show is very well done and successful.

“I thought most Trek fans were more intelligent than the average TV crowd. Seems not…”

Seems to me that you’re seeking confirmation that your opinions are intelligent and thus this is why you don’t like the show, while everyone who likes it is too dumb too see the truth of its mediocrity.

If you don’t like it, it doesn’t make you any smarter than anyone else. And if you do, it doesn’t make you dumber.

It just makes you different.

OMG, gingerly, how I wish you had answered JonBoc this same way.

There are others who need a response like that even more. Sadly those who need to hear it the most are also the ones least likely to consider it.

Did you read it Kirok?

I agree that Discovery is generally a disappointment at this stage. Besides my discontent with the terrible character of Stammets and terrible acting of Rapp (which I covered previously), it almost seems like this is a fan production; like a billionaire wanted their own Star Trek series and had the capital to hire professional actors. I see better space sequences on Star Trek Continues (Which is sadly coming to an end…) when it comes to the CGI. In short, Discovery is a piss poor product to take up the Star Trek nameplate. It’s an embarrassment.

Moto, I couldn’t agree more. The last episode of STC was far, far better than anything we have so far seen on dull STD.

Have to disagree with you 100%. If you replaced “Discovery” with “The Orville”, it would be a 100% match though…interesting.

I especially love how you preemptively call us all stupid for not agreeing with you. You had a point up til then. Now you dont. Cya!

They probably ended up in the mirror universe, I put my money on it!

P.S. Either that, or in Gamma or Delta quadrant (“Captain, I don’t know where we are”)

Nah, it’s likely the Mirror Universe. Possibly with a twist that the Mirror Universe turns out to be the Prime Universe and Discovery has been in the Mirror all along? :>

Lets not forget the debris. There was a lot of it. Lorca asks if it’s Klingon debris, which might be red herring (if he suddenly sees a lot of destroyed ships and its at war, he’d assume they were Klingon).

Could there be an event in Trek’s past that they have come to?

Axanar is the only one I can think of

That doesn’t make sense. Discovery has not been in the mirror universe.

If Discovery were in the mirror universe than they would be the villains. And its clear humans haven’t been conquering the galaxy and subjugating aliens species like they were in the mirror universe.

They still follow Starfleet rules, even if a bit more straddling the line.

I thought of that, too. But it would make no sense Discovery is in THE mirror. Maybe we are introduced into a Multiverse were Prime, Mirror, Discovery and Kelvin are “permutations” ;D I love this show…

if it was the mirror universe, the helmsman wouldn’t have said he didn’t know where they were

To be fair, we haven’t seen much of the navigational aspects of the MirrorVerse. We’ve seen individual people transported across the “boundaries” of the universes.

In a MirrorVerse, who’s to say that the astro-navigational reference points would be the same? What if planets in the other universe were destroyed, stars went nova, and so on?

The emotional weight, especially with this being only the first half of the first season, is where I think this show really hits it out of the park. Stamets and Culber really earning that first kiss and the PTSD turmoil Ash (Yoq?) is experiencing.

Lorca is such a mystery to me still and I love that. Given what he did with that panel before the final jump, there is definitely some big impending reveal to come about him.

I also really enjoy the integration of certain modern notions in science with the show. The idea of physics having an organic component is intriguing! I enjoyed Rain Wilson’s take on Mudd and his Stella making an appearance.

I’m still the most disconnected from Burnham but as tend to the case the central “eyes” can be least intriguing. She sees and relates the more interesting happenings around her. Though, I do see the romance to be refreshingly maturely handled, given both of their issues.

I’m glad that Kol storyline was needlessly dragged out.

That jump!

I’ve heard that Mirrorverse is the idea most are going with, but it could be distance and time instead. We’ll see!

I am so pleased with how this show has gone so far. Especially, considering where every other Trek was by this point in their journey. The quality by comparison is outstanding.

Ugh typos. But meh.

Thumbs Up!

Very mysterious:
When Lorca enters the coordinates to “Starbase 46” in the end, we see a list of the 133 previous jumps to decloak the Klingons. The override, however can be seen between jump 132 and 133, NOT after 133.

My theory: Lorca does not only exactly know where he wants to jump, he also needs those 133 jumps not primarily for finding the Klingons but also to simulate the way to a certain alternate universe. Hints for this we also find in his interest for them he shows to Stammets. *facepalm*

Another clue: while all other’s destination is “071-MARK-” plus three digits, the last one goes to “unknown”.

Because that’s where they are,
They ended up in an unknown section of space.
Unknown to the computer at least.

But it is shown BEFORE the jump

But they never actually completed the jump.

I think that Lorca placed in an override on Jump 133, so that the origin point for Jump 134 is unknown. Without the origin known it makes for an incomplete jump, and why Stamets screamed before the jump.

Lorca doesn’t want Stamets to stop jumping, and he doesn’t want to go back to 46, where he may lose his ship. Lorca is one step ahead of StarFleet Keep in mind that Admiral Vulcan said that Cornwell had arrived, she may have already let Admiral Vulcan know that Lorca needs to be pulled, and he would try and fight it, so the give Lorca a medal may be a ruse (they decided to award Lorca (alone) before logs were complete and in a matter of minutes/hours?)

So by causing the incomplete jump, Stamets will be forced to continue jumping, and it may take a while to get back to Prime Universe Starbase 46.

I might be nitpicking here. First, you are right about the jump and override order.
However, if ht placed the override before jump 133, then why right before jump 134 did he need to punch up the nav controls and hit keys? Just so us, the viewers, get a glimpse at the fact that he placed an override? That feels a little heavy handed but I guess I wouldnt rule it out.

I think I am nitpicking too, trying to figure out what this fictional character did and how he did it on with even more fantasy tech than the show has been using for 50 years.

The override, editing the destination point of Jump 133 was done just as they are about to jump, had to be done then, because if he did it earlier, then any number of people would have seen that the origin coordinates for the next jump were wrong – Saru, Keyla, Airiym, Tilly or Stamets could have all easily caught it if they looked at the S-Drive log and saw “unknown” as the destination coordinates from Jump 133, or origin for 134. You would assume that they review normally in pre-S-Drive jumps, that the Origin, Destination are both correctly recorded so that Stamets can choose the right Mycelial path to take. But if the jump starts to occur and the origin isn’t right, then Stamets can’t get from A to B on the path he is taking- thus the incomplete jump.

It would seem to reason. When he spoke to Stamets he talked of more jumps showing them gateways or whatever…and what did they come up with, 133 jumps in a few minutes. Would that be enough to show Lorca to a gateway? HMMMM!

I loved this episode. Lots to chew on.

I also had a crazy thought, but I doubt it’s right. I remember that Harberts and Berg were talking about how it *seems like* they’re violating canon but by the end of the season, we’ll see that they are not.

What if Discovery did actually start out in some alternate universe and then jumped to or will jump to, the Prime universe?

Exactly my thought, too

Yes, I kind of think so too.

Wow, I hadn’t thought of that. Could be!!

Oh and uh, Tyler is so totally Voq. There is no doubt now.

I enjoy the show, loved this episode but I completly agree with the review. STD has not sold us on this war. I dont feel for the lives lost, i don’t feel the distress nor what’s a stake. And for that, they have failed my expactations. I’m not considered a conservative fan. I’ve been waiting a long time for a Cool, deep , rich world TREK. I dont care much about the original series (but i completly respected it). I was hoping for a game changer. I really hope to be blown away with part II of the first season but with only 6 episodes left, their aint much time to see the war I was hoping for.

With that said… I miss Beam weapons!

I miss beam weapons too.

YES! Where are our bloody phaser BEAMS, I’m sick of these pew pew weapons of the Kelvin universe. Granted, we have seen a beam setting at least twice on Hand weapons… it seems to indicate a real high power output.

They use the beams…is it on kill setting?

T’kumva was killed by a pew pew beam, and killed him, so…

Agreed, please bring back the beam weapons. And the review was spot-on about how lacking the show has been thus far in us actually being invested in this war – the stakes, the losses. Not heart-wrenching in the least, as war should be.

Yes that has been my disappointment as well. The war is pretty lack luster for some reason. There is not a real weight there as it was on DS9 with their wars.

DS9 was underated. The best storytelling star trek in my opinion. The Dominion war arc was well executed. DS9 was a great saga

So true. It was my favorite Trek show and three Trek shows later it still is.

And I was really hoping they made the Klingon conflict as exciting as it was on DS9 but then that conflict on DS9 was just a lot more intriguing. The Klingons didn’t just start war because they wanted to feel like Klingons again, they were really afraid the Cardassians were secretly working with the Dominion and thought the Federation were being fooled. They broke the treaty because they felt they had to but being Klingons once they broke it, they went all in. And while they were wrong at the time, they ultimately felt redeemed when the Cardassions eventually sided with the Dominion later.

Here, one guy wanted to reunite the houses so hey, lets have a war with the Federation to do that. There was no other reason given to go to war with them outside of that. Its funny how the producers made it seem like these Klingons would have more depth and layered but they feel pretty two dimensional to me.

yeah me too. I heard this on a podcast but the phaser bolts have this wet sounding WHAP WHAP like from Star Wars and I’ve noticed it to the point it takes me out of the battle scenes a bit.


I miss the beam phasers too. It’s one of the huge tells that places this show in the KT. They used pulse weapons for phasers in those features as well.

In ST 2009 the Kelvin had both( beam and pulse) and that was cool. I Think Beam weapons exist in star Trek because it was simpler to do SFX wise and cheaper back then. But nowadays beam weapons can look awesome in a spacebattle. Especialy if only one of the ships have them.

Ships should have both beam and pulse weapons. And I hate the look of the torpedoes may I add. They look like slow blue fireballs.

True. The Kelvin did indeed have beam phasers. Which I did appreciate. But the Enterprise did not. And the hand phasers were pulse too. I liked the film but that inconsistency bugged me a little.

Well, the original Enterprise also had the ability to fire its phasers in a pulsed manner – see Balance of Terror, which was before Photon torpedoes were introduced.

That being said, I’d prefer at least some beams as well (at least for main banks). Makes it easier to tell what is being shot at as well.

I want beam weapons like they had in TOS. You could do everything with them. Vaporize, stun, kill or even heat rocks. It was another thing that distinguishes them from Star Wars.

Oh, Man, I’ve been meaning to mention that. These are the same pee-shooter phasers that were used in the JJ-verse. Another reason why I think we were never in Kansas in the first place.

I’m now almost certain that Tyler is Voq, and I’m guessing that they’re in the mirror universe now,

Probably , But I hope that he is the Albino.
We haven’t seen him in awhile either.

Voq is the albino.

In the flashbacks Tyler was having, I saw flashes of Voq, and flashes of his skin being cut. The blood seemed to be red [not purple as Klingons have].

What.Could.This.MEAN?? Voq was Tyler all along? I’ve seen theories on these Disco threads, but jiminy, that’s complicated.

I put this up to Kurtzman, along with the AltVerse concept. I’ve thought they were in an Altverse since episode 2.

Well Voq is a unique Klingon. Maybe his blood is red..maybe he has some human in him, hence his “albino-ness”.

OK. So here we are 9 episodes in with 6 left. Here are my thoughts 3/5 of the way in. First, the CBSAA thing. Like many others I am not very happy at having to tag on another streaming service just to see Trek. That said I was able to minimize the damage by starting late and only paying for the one month. I canceled late Sunday nightI tried it from my mobile device and a message popped up that told me I needed to log in on the device I used to create the account. When I went to my tablet I was told the same thing. . Not surprised they made it difficult to find. Found a phone number and called. When I was asked why I was canceling I told him mainly because I only subscribed for Trek and a smaller reason was that every episode I streamed had a video glitch of some kind. A glitch I rarely get from another streaming service I subscribe to and intend to keep. He offered me half off to stay and I told him I’m not going to watch anything on their service anyway so why not just let me keep it for free and start me up again January 12? He then offered me a free month followed by a half off month. But then, that’s still money being paid for a service I will not use. So I told him no thank you. He then tried to tell me about all the stuff available on CBSAA. Nothing he told me was enough to make me even want to consider keeping it at the reduced rate. Now that that unpleasantness is out of the way I will focus on the show itself. I’m forced to admit it does have potential here. But as far as I’m concerned it is getting off to a slow start. Normally this would not be an issue but given the fact that it is the flagship show of a new streaming service I was sorta hoping it would leap out and grab the viewer pretty much right from the start. I enjoyed the first episode that I watched on the over the air CBS affiliate. The only episode I watched that had no glitches whatsoever, BTW. After seeing it I thought we might have a really good thing going here. But then that first streaming episode that I watched nearly 2 weeks later was not a worthy follow up. There were too many plot holes and weird discrepencies going on. If the show is good enough the viewer will not get taken out of the story with nit picks and plot holes. Wrath of Khan is filled with nit picks but they are hard to catch on a first viewing because we are so engaged in the narrative. Not so with Star Trek Discovery. Now the show is interesting enough. I am somewhat engaged and am curious to see how it will finish out. Captain Lorca is the most interesting character on the show for my money. Just about every scene he is in causes the viewer to perk up and pay attention. Buhrnam… Less so. Which is surprising as I thought the human raised by Vulcans concept would be more interesting than it turned out to be. That said the best episode was the Sarek rescue one. It had a really good emotional punch to it and it worked. None of the other episodes have measured up. Which is also surprising. Technically the show has been pretty darn good. Production values are everything we could want. Structurally? Again, not so much. The spore drive is a little weird but I guess I’m going with it. Although we know going in it’s not going to pan out or it would have been all over the Federation by the time of TOS. And that brings up another issue. Regardless of what the showrunners say there has been very little to suggest it is in the prime universe. Nearly everything about the show screams Kelvin. From the look and feel and even the score has been reminiscent of the Kelvin features. Only the Sarek aspect from that one episode brought me into the prime universe. But, the producers are saying it’s not so let’s just see how they wrap things up in a few months and see if it really does fit in with the TOS timeline. And the length of the shows I have found a bit odd. Most are around 47-48 minutes. Sure, that’s a bit longer than today’s commercial filled shows on the more traditional outlets. But one thing about streaming (and even the premium cable outlets) is that the hour is more of a guideline than a rule. And shows can… Read more »

The life-signs pattern simulators seem really handy. Is this another piece of Trek tech that lives only in an episode only to be forgotten?

>> These seem to come right off the Orville episode “Krill” – but wasn’t there a TOS Animated episdoe where they wore a belt which was an personal environment? This wouldn’t be too far off that.

In the future, people really need to figure out locks that can’t be picked by prying off the panels and fiddling or cutting the wires.

>> The room that Cornwell was in didn’t seem to be a brig, just a room, so having a more simple lock seems right. That was a hell of a lot of fibre to control one door. That’s more fiber than it takes to provide a subdivision with 1gb internet to every home.
Remember on TOS, they didn’t have the door panels on the ship, those were not invented until they needed to blast one on the Death Star in Star Wars. Back on TOS, Scotty had to pull out a hand phaser and spend more time cutting into a wall to it would take him to get the engines and phasers working again on the Constellation after it had been blown apart.

All around the net, I’m actually hearing/seeing extremely positive response to this mid-season finale. It’s great to see people talk Trek who haven’t talked Trek in a long time.

I have to ask, with the -what seems to be- popularity of this show, where does that leave Paramount and the Trek films? Do you think this changes any decision-making on where to go next? Do they continue with the Enterprise as is or do they begin to say let’s go back to the prime universe and tell companion stories to fit in with Discovery sort of like what Star Wars is doing now? Or do they start making multiple inter-connected films within this alternate universe and do a new shared Trek U? Couldn’t help but be curious.

paramount knows it can make money on a trek movie but that means the budget will be reduced significantly. it will begin some time in 18 and arrive late 19 or early 20

I’ve been thinking the same. There could be some Trek overload in play (ironic with all the SW stuff going on, yes?), plus even though I loved STB the declining box office numbers are there for the Kelvin movies.

I agree to DiscoTrek, they know they can make money but to become more profitable they’ll probably do it on a reduced budget.

STID killed the Trek film box office. It drove away all the goodwill 2009 created with old fans, casuals, newbies etc. And the word of mouth was indifferent so the casuals who flocked to 2009 based on good word of mouth didnt go back after being confused by STID.

They wont admit it, after all, their bank accounts were padded with STID. But that film killed it, not Beyond.

If Im Paramount, I sit down with CBS and talk about a way forward that serves both sides of the plate. Perhaps using the CBS producers/creative people, distributed and financed by Paramount (and partners sine Paramount has no money).

Then you have a film series and TV series that serve each other rather then end up conflicting or splitting the market or even inevitably leading to comparisons. They can be aligned on marketing and merchandising as well.

come on Dude. That makes too much sense

They might reboot the movie if they bring back Kirk’s dad, which would cancel out 2009/STID/BEYOND

After watching the episode twice – I think it was good. I’m definitely interested in where they ended up, and am hoping for some changes which will more directly adhere this series to TOS, since for some reason the show-runners placed it where they did. As I’ve said on other posts, the time period it is placed in really keeps me from getting too excited about it.

Funny point in the review about the portable scanners, which I thought at the time as well. Really, That big and That Loud? You want to ‘not’ be found, right?

Good point in a post above about the music. The theme is enjoyable, but the music during scenes is far from compelling. Almost generic. Hopefully they can step up their game on this in the future.

The space fx were the best in this episode we’ve seen so far, I think, which actually contained a bit of a long ‘money shot’ of Discovery cruising by. Thanks! But overall so far, not impressed with the space shots. The planets look beautiful, but the ships, not so much.

I don’t know what to make of Saru after he was so easily manipulated to turn on everyone in the last episode, and wonder what such a skittish crew member is doing in such a lofty position. Lorca’s character continues to impress, and is the main reason I’m sticking with the show. Stamets is a fine character as well. As far as Burnham, there’s just something about SMG I don’t like. I didn’t care for her on Walking Dead and don’t care for her much here either. Tilly seems to be there only to say awkward things to move the plot along.

Totally agree with the review in that the ‘war’ wasn’t brought across to the viewers in an effective way whatsoever. Almost like an afterthought.

Call me a purist or whatever you like, but I’m big on continuity in Trek. I’m just not buying this ‘10 years before Kirk’ stance. I *really* wish they’d put this somewhere in the future of this timeline, but perhaps you’re acquainted with the old joke about wishes – anyway.

I like the show, and am interested in seeing what goes on next. I canceled CBSAA immediately after the finale, but will pick it up again in January, maybe February. Had no technical issues with the service. It’s worth the $1.85 an episode to me, which is really pennies when you think about it. That said, if they had put it on Netflix here in the U.S., I know many people who would be watching it, that aren’t and will not be as it stands now.

You are not alone in having problems with Saru being an XO or even a senior officer. He seems too fearful and secretly too concerned with what others think. I don’t think he’d pass a human-standard Command psychological evaluation. I would think Starfleet would want officers who are decisive and not easily overcome by fear. *Challenged with* fear, fine, but not overcome by it.

I see nothing to indicate he’s too fearful. In fact, a species who experiences constant fear makes him among the most courageous to rise to his level. its not like he’s Data when his emotion chip went haywire and he was petrified with fear.

“…as soon as Tyler sees the Klingon he says held him captive…” Hedging much, oh conspiracy-minded reviewer?

“…technobabble – which continues to be Sonequa Martin-Green’s kryptonite…” And everyone else’s. Terry Farrell once picked up a writer by the collar (she’s tall, ya know) and shook him because he gave Jadzia so much technobabble.

Does anyone else feel as though this has gone from the Burnham show to the Lorca Show w/ Burnham?

At the risk of drawing ire from the crowd, I would hope so.


CmdrR, I’m okay with that last, because Lorca and Burnham have an interesting dynamic, below which I think are currents that run very deep — perhaps into other universes.

If Stamets is getting confused by seeing alternate realities, perhaps he knew that Lorca was going to override the final jump and prevented the ship from jumping to where Lorca intended it to go. That could explain why Lorca was confused about their location too.

Ahhhh, Trellium, good perception. Because Stamets seems, even in that last scene with Lorca, where Lorca praises him so much, to be quite suspcious of the captain. Into the woods we go indeed!

good one!

My thoughts (before reading everyone else’s since I got here late and there is much great posts to digest I am sure):

– Loved the episode and it was a very worthy mid-season finale as it wrapped up some things (seemingly at least) and opened up new things!

– I never bought into Lorca being anyone but Lorca but the fact he seemingly overode the computer on the last jump with his own coordinates adds some mystery. It would seem to me that he was enticing Stamets (or preying on his innate curiosity) with talk of other universes but when Stamets said he couldnt jump anymore, Lorca had to advance his plan…if he has one.

– Hard to see from the Ash flashbacks but Im sure it looked like Klingon ridges being cut (voq being transformed?). The only issue I have with showing us the reinforcement of L’Rell raping Ash is that his claim to have been her prisoner for 7 months was a known lie (she was on the damaged ship of the dead). So the question is, how can both be true? I suppose only if Ash is Ash and was kept prisoner on the ship of the dead all that time and transferred to the prison ship when L’Rell went there.

Im trying to figure out if the rape was a real memory, a planted memory or a fake memory based on some other experience that is manifesting itself that way. If Voq and L’Rell had a sexual relationship, then I could see those memories being misinterpreted in “Tylers” mind. But there was no indication of that previously.

Was her raping him part of the plan to implant something? is that the wake up call to Ash as a Manchurian Candidate? Interesting! Or is Ash really Ash and the torture and rape was all apart of making him an unwitting sleeper agent? If so, it still doesnt resolve Voq.

– I HATE to lose Kol and that actor was one of my favorite Klingons ever. He did a great job emoting and enunciating through his make up and in Klingon. And I agree with the review that once he was speaking English it was even better as I was watching his face rather then reading words scrolled across the bottom. I could have seen him as a recurring foe throughout the series. He was THAT good.

– Great job with “the Kiss” by not giving it to us early in the series. Although that would have been perfectly fine, they basically dared any of the homophobes to whine about it by letting it come so incredibly naturally…almost NEEDING to happen as viewers when it did. Rapp is tremendous.

– This is a really good cast that even when they sink into the background they are all great (Tilly and Saru having little to do this episode).

– Wouldnt Will Decker be far too young to be a cadet?

It’s a good point you make about how much better the Klingons can emote when not ‘covered over’ by subtitles. When it was announced subtitles would be used I was pretty excited in that I thought it would add to authenticity – instead, the way it was visually used and the length of the Klingons’ rhetoric actually did the opposite, imo.

As to ‘the kiss,’ and this coming from a 51 year old straight guy, anyone who has a problem with that on TV these days needs to switch off their premium channels and go back to I Love Lucy or Brady Bunch reruns. Hell, True Blood did that nearly ten years ago. I didn’t give it a second thought.

Yeah and to be clear my point is that they had no trouble emoting with the subtitles, but I, for one have a large TV so when I am reading, Im not seeing the actor’s face/eyes/performance. When speaking English, I am. And it was great!

Exactly – the font size used was way too big.

Since they sad Lt. Decker, instead of using a name, there is a little wiggle room there.

“Cadet” Decker, actually. That would make him awfully young, though, since Stephen Collins was only 32 when he played Cmdr. Decker in TMP, which would have been what, like 20 years after the events here?

Yeah so TMP was 2270 and Discovery is 2256 thats 14 years. So yeah, i suppose it could be Will Decker. If we assume he’s mid-30s during TMP it would make him 20-ish in Discovery.

I always think of TMP as being long after TOS but I guess it was meant to be just after the end of the 5 year mission…so basically 2 years after TOS. 10 years went by in real life though.

I assume thats why there is always the implication Kirk led a second 5 year mission after TMP, to sort of catch up the ages a bit.

Does anyone else feel it’s always been hard to swallow cloaked ships at close proximity being so undetectable.

Just volley out a spread of phaser beams and see what hits. They were *so* close to the Ship of the Dead.

The reverse is the same. Discovery is doing 100+ jumps around the Klingon ships. But a simple 360 spray of klingon weapons is literally guaranteed to hit something on Discovery in the meantime.

Just let their on-board A.I. take control. Holey moley.

Also just in… the Klingon edition of Variety reports that L’Rell is being let go for sexual harassment. At least 4 Federation prisoners said they were inappropriately touched on the buttocks.


I find the kilngon use of cloaks in general to a tough sell. Further, and I’ve mentioned this before, the cloak is supposed to mainly be invisible to sensors. But in Balance of Terror they were able to detect motion. The cloak the Klingons have would look to be on par with the “perfect” cloak on the Scimitar some 120 years later. That is what I find hard to swallow.

But again, all of these issues could have been solved simply by placing the show further down the trek timeline.

Do you find it hard to swallow that the sensors being used by the federation 120 years before the Scimitar are less advanced?

Enterprise blew away any continuity regarding cloaking technology. Once they let that cat out of the bag, there was no going back.


It’s been quite some time since I’ve seen seasons 1&2 of Enterprise. What did they do that ruined continuity regarding cloaking tech that I no longer recall?

As I recall. They ran into a Romulan minfield and a bird of prey both of which had cloaking tech.. It was a one off if I remember correctly. But they definitely ran into it. Also the Suliban has cloaking tech. Balance of terror made it sound like Spock had never seen this kind of tech before. But it had been around in many forms before then if you go by what enterprise showed.

@kirock. Sorry I meant to @that to you. Mark.


No problem. I thought it obvious it was a reply to me.

Yes. I now recall they encountered the Romulans in that episode. They made sure no one saw a Romulan to maintain that canon. But yes. Spock did mention surprise at the cloak in BoT. I don’t really count the Suliban cloak is screwing with continuity. He was given future tech that could have been lost or hoarded or whatever. It never made its way into federation hands. But I can see how someone else might think it does.

Another reminder of how much Enterprise sucked. They had literally no stories to tell in that era so just told stories from the future. What a waste.

I think the 133 Jumps was to help gather data with the 2 sensors placed on board the ship of the dead so the cpu can crunch and crack the code and produce the algorithm

You want to be able to keep detecting the ship after it has cloaked and changed positions.

I believe they are much farther apart then we visually see.

I do so find any it hard to swallow. Only people trying to find problems will think they see them.

For example, firing wildly on even a stationary vessel, in open space, it would be like finding a needle in a haystack. This not a 360 plane– given distance variables, who knows how many degrees it would really be? The odds of randomly finding your target (who would no doubt start moving when they started firing) is infinitesimal.

As for how advanced the cloak is, consider this is 120 years before for the Federation too, and their sensors are no doubt less advanced than the Enterprise in Nemesis, not to mention this is their first encounter with a Klingon cloak, so they may not know exactly what to look for.

All this stuff goes down easy: if you want to find a plot hole you’ll find one if you dig hard enough, and if you want to find a justification for these nitpicks you can find those too.

Besides, Trek has never had flawless storytelling and perfect logic. Even within episodes there have been continuity issues as far back as TOS.

Well… 10 years later the enterprise is able to detect the Romulan warbird’s motion while cloaked.

Another point regarding picking nits is yes. They do exist and can always be found. But if the narrative is engaging the viewer enough you are so engrossed in the story that you aren’t thinking about plot holes and nit picks while watching. You think about them after. WoK had lots of nit picks. But the first time I watched it I didn’t think about any of them. But watching STD I see issues quite often. That is a sign that the overall storytelling is not quite as good as it could be.

Maybe the Romulan Cloak and the Klingon Cloak are not identical. Maybe sensor technology advances in ten years. Maybe the efforts to detect the Klingon cloak in Discovery helped lead to advancements that allowed the Enterprise to detect the Romulan cloak?

I dont know…I just thought of that in three seconds of thinking about it. Give it a shot.

The Klingon ship was thousands of kilometers away and being magnified. Assuming this action is displayed like any other sci-fi show, interstellar space vessels rarely come close to one another unless docking. Even if the sarcophagus ship was in direct line of sight there are still thousands of kilometers separating the two ships.

The cloak has always been hard to swallow in trek. Good plot device, but when you think about it, it shouldn’t be that hard to defeat. I do like how Discovery has explained it though. It would make Einstien proud!!

Okay, so someone watch the flashback scenes frame-by-frame and analyze what we’re seeing please!

I did and there is plastic over Ash which kind of looks like torture, but then I see that it’s all over his body so it could be a regenerative type of thing.

Wow, you did some intense work, thanks! I may have to sign up for this CBSAA just to do stuff like this. I don’t think my friends [with whom I watch DISCO] are up to that sort of thing.

I saw the plastic. I thought I saw flashes of Voq but it could have been L’Rell as if she was watching the torture or surgery. It looked to me like cutting and Im sure I saw Klingon ridges as if cutting off ridges and lots of blood running.

Opet pederi…

I want to quote an interesting comment made over at ArsTechnica:
colincornaby wrote:
The direction they are going is starting to make me wonder about early rumors.

The rumor was when Fuller was attached that this would be an anthology series. The first season would be set during the time we’re seeing now in Discovery. The second would be set around the time of Star Trek 6. The third would be set around the time of TNG/DS9. And the fourth would be set in the future of the existing Trek timeline.

At the time that didn’t make very much sense to me. They’d need entirely new sets and an entirely new crew each season, plus the show was already named Discovery. And then Fuller left and everyone kind of assumed maybe CBS went a different direction.

But what if they didn’t, and what if the spore drive is the method they’re using to make this happen? If the spore drive can cross dimensions, what if it can cross time? What if Lorca ends up using the spore drive to never return home?

If that’s what they do, Discovery would become almost a Starfleet urban myth. An old ship, full of crazy experimental technology that has ungrounded them from time, captained by a mad man, with Starfleet’s most famous mutineer on board, that pops up every 50 years like a ghost ship. Would explain why Starfleet would bury the spore drive.

Starfleet might even be so embarrassed that they’d bury records of the Discovery entirely.

I remember reading about the anthology plan early-on, and thought what a compelling idea that could be. Plot-wise it would work as well, because as things are going now, if they do get back from wherever it is they went, Lorca is headed for the Federation Funny Farm and Burnham is likely still headed to jail. Best thing is, and to fix my biggest pet peeve about the show, it wouldn’t be set pre-TOS anymore.

Works for me, JonBuck.

intriguing idea, JonBuck & Danpaine

Yeah its been talked about on the forums a bit. If I recall the time lines Fuller wanted though included TOS but those references could have been more general (meaning TOS films as opposed to TOS series).

Initially I rejected it too based on budget. And I assume that was CBS’ thoughts.

But…if the Discovery is the main set and its unchanged, you dont have to re-do every set. And every season will include budget for new sets anyway. What’s the different between building a Schenzhou and various Klingon interiors, sets and CGI and building TUC era, DS9 Era and future era?

Nothing really.

I suspect strongly that the spore drive was Fuller’s means to do this. The other possibility was that Michael was full or partially Vulcan (I say partial because I think she was initially described looking human, which implies she isnt) and thus, could be long lived. So the idea I had was the ship would be the main character over a hundred years with Michael as the only consistent crew person.

They obviously changed that though…

I think there are still a few shoes to drop so there is SOMETHING big creatively. Is it time jumping? Maybe. But you need a story behind that. Jumping in and our of time is not itself a story. Unless they do something to accidentally screw up the timeline and their life goal is repairing it at various stages of where the changes intersect to have the most impact.

Sort of a Quantum Leap in space.

“Who would have guessed the first nude scene on this show would be a Klingon rape?”

No matter how much some of you may hate my persistent and repetitive way of giving my opinions and revealing my emotional tribulations ad nauseam, I feel once more obliged to point out that…

YES, I have indeed guessed the nature of Trek’s very first nude scene weeks before DSC premiered. Back in August, after the TV-MA rating had been revealed, I explicitly predicted that nudity on DSC would not only feature nudity but violent nudity involving bizarre and grotesque Species-inspired scenarios. Back then, no one believed me, pointing out that nudity was a natural thing, liberating, beautiful etc…

Now that DSC has actually introduced us to our first pair of boobs involving not only sexual violence but a vampiresque, almost zombie-like Klingon female, I hope you see some of my points in a different light.

You may still like the “adult” nature of those scenes but please don’t downplay the historic significance of those developments. This isn’t your average horror movie or TV show. This is Star Trek, one of the most enduring all-age franchise properties of all time. A family-friendly franchise crossing into adult territory to deliberately cater to an often teenage audience, has got a new quality that even GOT or TWD couldn’t achieve. Those series may be popular beyond compare, but those are fully independent, separate fictional worlds whereas Star Trek remains Star Trek, no matter how well you hide it behind a TV-MA rating. Whatever your stand is on that subject matter, it is a major transition for mainstream TV and pop culture. Love it or hate it, but this is not just a minor negligible outburst of creativity.

If you ask yourself why I am judging that show on tiny, little scenes instead of looking at the grand whole… well, I’m not. Not at all. As I’ve said time and again, 99% of the show is traditional Trek with some modern twists and I like most of it to the fullest.
But those “five seconds of shame” inserted into almost each and every episode are there for a reason and there is no way I can overlook them.
But unlike in previous weeks and months, I even don’t want to condemn these tendencies altogether. I’m split on that matter and I do fully understand that some of you appreciate these moments. Part of me wises I could do the same.
But if you do so, you need to be fully aware of the scope those changes have. I may be more than a little obsessed about these issues, but that’s because I just care so much about this franchise and movies / TV as a whole. What has transpired on DSC has changed genre TV forever.
And as the genre goes fuoll circle like that fidget-spinning saucer section, I wish you all the best for the upcoming seasonal holidays. I may have been not an easy-going contributer, but I really didn’t want to get on your nerves…

No one is asking themselves anything about you any more. Notice?

Your eloquent but pointless rants are just bouncing around your little self resonance chamber.

If a split second of Klingon top-boob is changing the sci-fi genre forever then you have a staggeringly selective memory.

The world is full of front page stories of grown men running for office sexually assaulting underage girls and shows being cancelled for someone masturbating in front of unwilling subordinates. Kids are being gunned down in church, country music concerts are killing fields, weddings are bombed by drones, crushed children are pulled out of earthquake rubble… all before 6.30pm. Don’t pretend that kids don’t get their eyes opened by reality far more than than a flash of prosthetic boob in Star Trek could ever show.

“Kids are being gunned down in church, country music concerts are killing fields, weddings are bombed by drones,”

Those real-life instances of bloody violence are an entirely different sort of problem and got very little to do with the fictional violence on TV. Your country has got a weapons issue but that is not due to fictional violence. While I’m opposed to graphic violence on mainstream shows, even I wouldn’t be so bold to link these images to real-life slaughter. The world watches American shows, but no other western country has got your gun control issue, so hardly any incidents like that happen in Europe…But that’s not the issue here

“Your eloquent but pointless rants are just bouncing around your little self resonance chamber.”

You’re right. My thoughts are focused mainly around the state of genre entertainment and Star Trek, be it for reasons of youth protection, morality or simply aesthetics. But I see no direct connection to real-life “events”. Otherwise, two World Wars could have triggered blood-soaked entertainment back in the 50s, which didn’t happen.

“If a split second of Klingon top-boob is changing the sci-fi genre forever then you have a staggeringly selective memory”

In combination with other brief instances of graphic violence on DSC, these boobies have changed the history of genre TV. Most adult-oriented shows show A LOT more of that, but that’s not the point. Those other shows are their own thing but Star Trek is a 51-year-old trademark and icon. Anything being shown on Star Trek has gazillion times more impact than GOT or TWD could ever have. Only changes on Star Wars and probably Middle-earth would have the same magnitude and scope. Deadwood, Spartacus etc. simply aren’t in that league.

Smike…seriously. You need to get rid of your TV, computer, phone and avoid leaving your home. Are you trolling us all at this point? PLEASE STOP. it was funny at first. But good grief!

The Klingon breasts was akin to a store mannequin. I hope they do a 12 minute explicit sex scene between Stamets and Hugh with copious amounts of erect schlong just so your head explodes and you dont post anymore. *tongue in cheek*

“Are you trolling us all at this point? PLEASE STOP. it was funny at first. But good grief!”

Trolling? Funny? None of my ramblings were ever meant to be “funny”. I am very, very serious about these issues and believe me, I contemplate on these questions every waking moment. You cannot possible understand how emotional I am about all of that. If I have occassionally contradicted myself, it’s because I’m still not entirely sure what to make of these emotions. The last couple of weeks and months have been the most emotional rollercoaster of my entire life.

If you dislike sharing my opinions and feelings about DSC and the current state of genre entertainment, stop reading them and STOP replying. I’m not forcing YOU or any other person to read my stuff. I’m posting for those people who may have similar thoughts (though I doubt anyone would feel that emotional about these issues).

@smike if you really contemplate on this every waking moment, I say with all sincerty that might want to talk to someone. If these things are having that much of a negative impact on you and Star Trek has become that important to you as a source of grounding in your life, you might need help gaining perspective.

As a forum, there are general rules (either specific from the site owners or just general rules of internet docorum) that precludes spamming and trolling. So really its not a matter of me choosing not to read. You’re the one acting out.

If watching Discovery has been the most emotional rollercoaster of your life, again, with all sincereity, call someone…a counsellor or whatever and get some help grounding yourself. You’re not thinking clearly my friend.

“Don’t pretend that kids don’t get their eyes opened by reality far more than than a flash of prosthetic boob in Star Trek could ever show.”

There can be do doubt that real-life violence has got a HUGE impact on kids and teens and you could extend that list of worrisome tendencies forever: online mobbing, drug abuse, hardcore online entertainment, you name it!

But none of this is the point. My primary focus is the past, present and future of sci-fi and fantasy on screen. And within that realm, Star Trek is one of the oldest, most influential properties. It’s 50+ year-old legacy makes it more important than most other franchises or shows. And that’s my focal point: genre entertainment, which is very important to me.

But no, it isn’t THAT influential for kids and I’m more concerned with the well-being of my inner child that feeds on that stuff than with actual kids and teens out there who ARE exposed to much worse if parents aren’t careful. But again, real-life violence, online smutt etc. is not the issue here… this is about sci-fi and fantasy franchises.

Saying that this doesn’t matter because after all it’s less important than real-life events (which is a matter of course), doesn’t really make sense. No, those fake boobs have not changed history, but TV history, genre history, to a much greater extend than the same stuff on GOT. That’s all I’m saying. And since the genre is my main focal point, it matters to me…

Echo… echo… echo…

Hyper-sexualization of most comic books for decades… space hookers all over sci-fi, classic sci-fi books full of sex.

If you think that Discovery with its limited distribution has remotely the impact of the world’s most watched shows then again you are just maintaining your delusion. Your concern for ST is almost endearing but it doesn’t exist in a vacuum vs. all other genre product.

PS The US isn’t my country and Europe has enough racism and right wing BS, and non-gun violence to keep the headlines thick with ugly reality.

LOL yeah I think most people have tuned Smike and his constant moralizing rants at this point. OMG, they showed a boob for a split second, time to pull out the bible and repent.

Glad he likes the show though,

“OMG, they showed a boob for a split second, time to pull out the bible and repent.”

What is it with “the Bible” all the time? I’m NOT religious and I couldn’t care less about what the Bible has to say about it? Actually, the Bible is full of bloody violence, even against thousands of newborn babies, entire cities are roasted, all of humanity is flooded, dozens of scary plagues etc…. At the very core of its mythology is a violent execution! The Bible and DSC are very much alike. The names Gabriel and Michael have been chosen for a reason.

Nope, my complaint about the brief instances of violence on DSC is entirely based on imanent reasons. Trek used to be a humanitarian vision of a better future. Now it’s gore and sex in space… not all of it, but parts of it. Brief parts, but still… Trek should be better than that. It should be above and beyond those issues, ad above the need of graphically exploiting current viewing habits… For me it’s not just a TV show that wants to earn money. At least, it shouldn’t be.

You’re wrong.

“Hyper-sexualization of most comic books for decades… space hookers all over sci-fi, classic sci-fi books full of sex.”

Comic books, hard sci-fi novels… that’s niche entertainment… source material for movies and TV shows.
All that matters to me are onscreen images within blockbuster franchises that reach millions upon millions. And of course I cannot help but be biased. Trek may never have been as successful as Star Wars, but it’s still the most important franchise for me… the old Trek, TOS and spin-offs, as different as they might have been, was something special because it didn’t cross certain lines back then. This Trek is dead now, and yeah, guess what, I’m mourning it!

I guess I have to admit that my perspective is rather self-centered, even selfish to some degree, I have based my entire “spiritual” life around Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. These are my personal “gospels”. Anything outside these four “holy” realms is entirely secondary. Interesting yes, but secondary, tertiary…

My entire obsession with youth protection, age certificates etc. is also rather bigot. If I’m honest, it has never really been about actually protecting kids and teens from any potential harm. I don’t believe that stuff is harmful to them aged 12+ although my country says otherwise. No, most of them won’t take a gun and go on a rampage…

What’s really bothering me is the ongoing change of viewing habits. Youngsters who learn that GOT or TWD is “normal”, socially acceptable entertainment at a very young age, will demand for more blood and boobies as adult consumers, further contributing to those changes.

The main questions for me are: what will Star Trek look like in 5 or 10 years from now. More TV-MA shows, an R-Rated Tarantino movie? Will Star Wars get an R-Rated spin-off or TV-MA TV show? Will the Middle-earth series on Amazon be a lot like GOT?

While I accept – and even like to some degree, explicit violence in niche horror movies, I simply feel so devastated as soon as my “holy quadrology” of franchises is altered with reagrads to graohic violence, gore and nudity. Because I’ve always believed them and wanted them to be above those urges for gross imagery.

I agree. This nudity wasn’t needed. Trek has shown us horrible situation before, but never sunk to feeling like it had to show us nudity. There is a lot of trek in this episode, but I found myself disappointed at those scenes at the end. Nudity wasn’t needed at all to sell the point. Trek has always been family friendly. Sadly my 14-year-old doesn’t care for this “new trek”… which I think is the real sorrow of Discovery.

Whining over the fake nudity is just about the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on here in a long time. Holy cow. Like if you complain, great but if its more than ONE sentence, you’re over-thinking it. If you cant handle it, dont watch. Its 2017!

There’s been nudity on network television for years. And this aint network television.

Reminds me of the faux outrage of the top of T’pol’s bare ass on Enterprise that had to be cut from some viewings. God forbid people see the top of an ass. The average plumber showed more crack.

Baring T’Pol wasn’t needed either. One of the few minutes in all of trek I felt uncomfortable watching trek with my kids. You can say it’s “whining”, but the further they go the less family oriented it is. I could care less what is or is not on network TV or any other medium. This is trek, and until this scene, it has been better than that.

Its dramatic story telling. Who says it has to be made for 7 year olds? If I watch Sesame Street and Maria strips nude and climbs on top of Bob, Im with you. But this is not a kids show.

Trek (and really most dramatic series’) reflect the norms of the time. Im sure if there were internet forum in the 60’s some Trek fans would complain about the sexy clothes of some of the women. Or people would complain about how they dont want their children seeing a white man kiss a black woman.

If seeing “breasts” flash on screen that are akin to a mannequin then I dont know what to tell you.

If it makes you uncomfortable watching with your kids…maybe you should have a conversation with your kids.

In the 90’s we had a Canadian show called Degrassi that ended the series with a TV movie aired during prime time. It was a show aimed at teens (and younger). They had bare backsides, frank discussions of sex, heavy groping and dropped two F-bombs. Network TV. But it was deemed “educational” I guess.

Dont watch Star Trek with your kids if you’re concerned they might wonder what an ass or a boob is.

Little preachy are we? You go to the extreme, and I’m unreasonable? It’s not “dramatic story telling”, it targeting the lowest common denominator. Exactly what conversation should I have with my kids? You need to stay in your lane. Simply put, trek has gone where no trek has gone before, and the franchise is weaker for it.

How is it targeting the lowest common denominator? Im not sure that means what you think it does.

There are opinions and there are facts. Your opinion is Star Trek is worse for this. The fact is, you’re wrong.

If your sensibilities cant handle it, stick to the cartoon network.

In your opinion

I’ve been having trouble with the serial aspect of the show. Dropping in so many story details along the way, that may or may not be revisited/resolved, is making the whole season arc feel pretty inconsequential to me. I was really disappointed last week (“Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum”) when our main character (and the show writers), so brilliantly versed in Federation values, kept insisting on “ending conflict” over building peace. Nothing new for Burnham, but still so simplistic in light of her prodigious back story. It just felt like another convenient plotline when she insisted that Discovery must now stay to defend Pahvo, more of the knitted brow inevitability that I have come to expect from Burnham. I was hoping to chalk this up to some brilliantly unorthodox allegorical sci-fi writing come this week, when Pahvo showed them the error of their ways, or some such Star Trekian thing, but alas I just saw more of the same. Burnham smugly satisfied and relieved when her great transcendent journey to end the war she started, amounts to killing the enemy and avenging the captain that died because of her actions. As the reviewer mentioned, Pahvo plays no role in this episode after bringing the Klingons to where Discovery is – what sense does this make? Bringing both sides to the table and then just leaving them there to fight it out? Peace, it would seem, is pie in the sky on Discovery, an opiated hallucination in Saru’s mind, but nothing to be taken seriously. As MLK famously said, ”True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice.” Discovery’s focus on “ending conflict” (relieving tension) seems one dimensional by comparison. Yes, this war was premeditated by T’Kuvma, and Burnham fell into his trap, but it is still her action of killing the Torchbearer that sets the conflict into motion. We never quite get back to this point. We are instead made to focus on her act of mutiny as the catalyst for all that comes after… Maybe this is some brilliant allegory, showing us the sleight of hand that beats the drums of war? Does it tell us anything about ourselves that we are so easily distracted from the underlying cause and effect after 16 years of endless and expanding war? Perhaps I am just expecting too much from this iteration of Star Trek, or maybe I am expecting too much of us?

Your handle is apt. And not be insulting. I mean it. I think some old school Star Trek fans have trouble with this. Its serialized story-telling. Its a 15 hour movie.

So, I’ve seen people saying that “Tyler/Voq” has been put to bed by this episode. I read exactly the opposite – the torture scenes, to me, are memories of Voq’s genetic and physical manipulation. I am more convinced than ever that T=V.

Still can’t decide about Lorca – I refuse to believe that he’s from a mirror universe yet, but his behaviour and newly-acknowledged interest in parallel universes is strange.

Agree. T=V for sure…. and T doesn’t know. I’ve never thought of Lorca as “the bad guy”… I think he’s been shown to us in a way that makes us question him, but I think we’ll find out he is a good guy.

Great review. Outstanding episode! I think the special effects folks might have screwed up though. Captain Lorca modified the jump command before making that last jump. The screen says “133 Unknown” …. should it have been 134? I thought Stamets made 133 jumps?

Yes it should. The Panel could also mean he is overriding the present jump and uses parameters from jump 133, the last to gather information for computation? He needs those 133 jumps for getting infos about the way to the alternative universes, how he tells Stamets, not only decloak the Klingons.

Or did Lorca override before jump 133 after 132? The unknown coordinates would hint to this. But why didn’t they jump to the alternate location on jump 133 then? Because the last jump must be 134. That this could be a plot error is not possible.

I had read somewhere else that the first 133 jumps were 0-132. I guess that could be possible. “0” in computers counts as a spot.

Strange to me that no one has mentioned that on that last spore jump the ship split and there were two. This would seem to support the mirror universe theories.

Yes, forgot to write about that. Very interesting to have two Discoveries.

I will start to enjoy this show much more if they kill Cadet Tilly in a graphic and painful death scene.

I notice Tilly seems to have a big love/hate thing with the fanbase thus far. Those who likes her REALLY likes her but those who hate her REALLY hates her.

I’m kind of indifferent. I don’t mind her and its nice to bring a bit of humor to a rather humorless show but if she died in the next episode I wouldn’t care all that much either.

Tilly is dispensable in my opinion. She’s touted to be this ‘super-genius’ as the show opens, but all she’s done so far as I can see is make awkward comments to move plot points along. Awkwardness is only funny to a point. She helps out in engineering, and throws her boss under the bus to his boyfriend while on duty. And she has allergies. That’s her character in a nutshell to me. Again, like Saru, another crew member I have a hard time believing would be placed upon a covert, high-tech experimental vessel during wartime. Too many hang-ups and neuroses. But, have to remember we’re in (almost) 2018 now and everyone has to be so tolerant and sensitive. Sorry, didn’t mean for that to turn into a rant. Just my thoughts.

I’m with you. I could do without Cadet Tilly. I guess she was supposed to be endearing but I just find her…. Fairly worthless. Not as worthless as Wesley. More Troi level worthlessness.

Shes the viewers avatar into the show.

The Walking Dead died a quick death after killing the one character that could never be killed. Discovery wont make the same mistake. Obviously she’s not the same level as Glenn because its early but that is what she is to many fans. She’s “us”.

With the first “act” finished, here are my thoughts:


It’s well-written, well-produced, and updated to fit with a modern TV audience. The story is engaging – my wife even watches with me! :-0

I like it, and will continue to watch it without doubt. What follows are not meant to override this, but are just my thoughts…


I find myself missing the “canon” touches and wondering why they had to change the Klingons, the ships, and the Starfleet uniforms so much. I think the series would have worked equally well without deliberately putting two fingers up to what has gone before.

What surprises me most is how much I cringe at the exterior space shots. I always used to love exterior shots (TNG onwards, of course) but DSC just feels “cartoonish” to me. I don’t believe in the ships as much as I used to. Perhaps this is just me but I don’t feel the same “majesty” as we used to get with the slower fly-bys.

We’ve seen so little of it that I just can’t take the idea seriously that this season is about “the Klingon war”. A small number of main characters bumping into each other and snarling is not a war…

I also can’t make the spore drive fit with 23rd century Star Trek. The writers will have to find a way to explain why this series shouldn’t have been set in 25th century IMO.

We were told that the producers could be more free with episode length, because it was a streaming service. I assumed that meant we might be getting some 90-minute episodes dealing with deeper issues and more challenging situations. What we have actually got feels more like shorter and more faced-paced episodes that seem to want to be over before they’ve started.


It IS Star Trek, IMO, but should embrace and enjoy that concept more. It feels like there are too many deliberate and unnecessary attempts to be different.

My final question, and perhaps this is obvious but I’ve not seen it confirmed. Right back at the beginning, Bryan Fuller said something along the lines of “there was a throwaway line in Star Trek that has never been explored”… I presume that was the Klingon War, but was it another idea that was abandoned, or was it referring to something that we haven’t seen yet?

A lot of great thoughts here and I agree with most of them.

As for Fuller my guess he was talking about the Klingon war. It is funny though how so many though wrecked the brains thinking it was some small event the show might cover that no one can figure out and it being a full on alpha quadrant wide war, which probably didn’t happen according to canon but hey thats what prequels usually do, change things. ;)

But yes after seeing what they done so far, I kind of wish they avoided the whole war story line. Its just not very exciting and made the Klingons feel like A-holes instead of a species that has a real purpose.

Indeed, we need more slow exterior shots. The present ones are too fast paced an the rotating camera is not good.

Canon: “It may seem we are violating canon” -> It will get clearer in the end.

On Bo Yeon Kim and Erika Lippoldt are credited with writing two episodes of Star Trek Discovery, I’m assuming this one and one other to come I hope, so that’s exciting. Unfortunately it looks like Chris Byrne only directs this episode this session which is to bad because he also did an outstanding job. But they’d be wise to have him back for session two. Kim and Erika wrote an episode that was better written than any of the JJ movies (some of which I do love).

An interesting and touching meta-point I haven’t seen on any discussion threads yet:
Anthony Rapp starred on Broadway in RENT as Mark.
Wilson Cruz also starred on Broadway in RENT as Angel.
RENT is a rock opera by Jonathan Larson based extensively on LA BOHEME.

That lovely invitation from Stamets to Culber to see LA BOHEME at the opera house was a direct reference to their Broadway show legacy.

Mirror Universe.

it just look’s like they took out my text e-mail from here and I don’t think cbs don’t care about what I found out about Viacom and this person here: bob bakish he is now on cbs, and he don’t like us star trek fans and all of the star trek clubs in the usa. they want trek fan to go after trek fans. you need to do your resurch your self you will need to dig deep

You can’t get me to view it. I like star trek TOS only. And i will get a lot of person who love star trek And fan help build a real star ship to