Reminder: ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Episode 10 ‘Despite Yourself’ Debuts Tonight

Star Trek: Discovery debuts its tenth episode tonight, returning from hiatus!

There’s a lot of excitement brewing around this episode with the return of director Jonathan Frakes to the franchise, and the cliffhanger ending from November’s “Into The Forest I Go.”

Preview: “Despite Yourself”

Star Trek: Discovery – Season 1, Episode 10

While in unfamiliar territory, the U.S.S. Discovery crew is forced to get creative in their next efforts to survive opposing and unprecedented forces and return home.

The episode will be available in the US on CBS All Access at 8:30 pm ET (5:30 PT). In Canada it airs on the Space Channel at 8:00 pm ET (5:00 pm PT).  And it will be available on Netflix outside the USA and Canada on Monday at 8 am BST.

CBS Episode Preview

Photos

Followed by ‘After Trek’ episode 9

The ninth episode of the Discovery after-show After Trek streams live on CBS All Access tonight at 9:30 pm ET. With Wilson Cruz, Marry Chieffo, and showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen Berg.

After Trek also airs on Space in Canada at midnight ET and will be available on Netflix on Monday.

What say you?

TrekMovie will be posting a full review of “Despite Yourself” later. But you don’t have to wait to offer your views in the comments below.

 

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SPOILERS

I knew it! Fan Theory confirmed Tyler is..

awesome episode so far

spoilers

holy crap mirror universe and captain tilly!

I liked the twist there! I think it’s super clever they put both aspiring captains in the chair in the MO. Captain Burnham, we finally see her!

You liked the ‘twist?’ Bet Hugh didn’t like the ‘twist.’

You mean Captain Killy! And is it just me or does Cadet Tilly have quite the potty mouth?

And I like it!

Its a good way to make the salty language work. We’ve always known they swear in the future. But its not very Star Fleet to be dropping them. Having a young character swear as a character trait is actually pretty funny.

And her line was hilarious and fitting.

Every ‘big’ girl that I’ve ever known swears frequently; Tilly is no exception

I’m in love with Tilly….what a minx she is in the Terran Empire!!

“…and Captain Killy”

“Well, that’s not very clever…”

ROTFL!

ha lol i just got that

Doug Jones made that scene perfection!

This feels like a *completely* different series now.

It does! So much going on and not necessarily in a good way. To not do justice to a PTSD character because he is just a Klignon in disguise? Plus the mirror universe was competing with other ideas. I wish they would wrap up the Klignons story and be done with it. Or have saved the mirror universe for later. Plus so much emphasis on Culber and Stamets and now what? I feel very conflicted over this show and it’s direction. That could change as the season comes to a close but this was not what I had hoped it would be.

What is your obsession with this? They’ve done PTSD stories before. I’m sorry this might not be the story you want it to be, but that doesn’t make it bad, just different.

My obsession! I have never comsidered it that. Just an argument. For one thing there is nothing wrong with being him just being a human character with PTSD! I don’t need a Klignon in disguise storyline. If you do great. I am glad you enjoyed it I didn’t. That’s my right. I thought it was bad. That’s my opinion and I am entitled too it. So much for a discussion with people who disagree. I guess we should all think the same.

You have repeatedly mentioned it every time Voq or Tyler is discussed.

I don’t “need” a disguise storyline but I don’t need anything but an entertaining show and if it’s well done I don’t care if it’s that or not.

Of course you’re entitled to your opinion but your obsession with them not undermining a story they’re not telling is getting tiresome.

So Dr. Steph, Klingons can’t have PTSD or a memory engram wouldn’t cause the host to have PTSD?

There is still PTSD. Its just that its Voq. I assume the idea of the “rape” was to implant memories that would account for his distress in an effort to bury the “real” memories.

Tyler/Voq’s brain is conflicted between the “rape” which is the trauma that “Tyler” suffered and the surgical transformation, which is the trauma that Voq suffered.

So you’re saying they can’t make him Voq because they are somehow obligated to explore a PTSD character? Or they can’t show PTSS symptoms?

Isn’t Voq experiencing trauma?

Your complaint makes no sense

Precisely. 👏

It’s their show they can write what they want to. There is no official obligation. I would assume most people would know that. Would I have preferred he stayed human to make it more meaningful to ME of course. No questions that he was a prisoner loyal to the Federation rather than an enemy in disguise. I have made this argument before. As for Voq…. Has he suffered trauma? Well I would think he was a willing participant in the process. So his trauma would be in not being able to be who he really is but that was his choice. Or so we assume. Did the real Tyler get a choice? I couldn’t tell you. As for whether or not my argument makes sense well that’s more of a personal thing. No? Opinion is after all very subjective. I accept that there are people who disagree with me. There are people who love this storyline. I am genuinely glad they like it. I guess I just feel like those that don’t like the storyline get attacked..or rather it can feel like it. Hard to tell through a computer screen. :) Other people on other social media sites feel similarly so I am hardly alone just one of the more vocal people on this forum. I can’t fathom why those of us who disagree with this storyline get called “obsessed” while those who defend it are ok or rather not “obsessed”? Maybe we should just acknowledge we will not all… Read more »

I am *positive* Voq was misled by L’Rell and had no idea what he was going to be put through. We’ll see of course.

Well, she literally told him he’d have to sacrifice “Everything”, and for Voq the biggest thing he could literally sacrifice would be “being Klingon”.
Maybe he thought she meant that figuratively…

It’s a pretty vague promise, and given Tyler’s trauma it seems clear to me that Voq was put through something torturous that he didn’t consent to. I don’t think Tyler’s memories are just false implants, I think it’s Voq remembering the brutal rape he endured.

Hmmm, Im not sure. We dont know if the rape was real or imagined. Fake Tyler said he’d been L’Rell’s play thing for six months, which we know is false.

One guess is that she “raped” Tyler/Voq to implant a traumatic experience to cover up the “real” trauma of his surgery.

While I would have preferred Tyler be Tyler, there’s still a good way to solve this AND keep Tyler. So from the new information it seems that Voq was altered to appear human (perhaps infected with the Augment virus, would be a nice nod) and then adjusted to match the original Tyler, who’s memory was either moved or copied on top of Voq to act as a cover identity until the prayer would activate him. But something is wrong with the trigger. Tyler’s personality and memories, which DO include the torture and rape (and perhaps even worse as L’rell implied), is still in control, with Voq only surfacing in moments of stress. While it would be a fake body, depending how accurate the copy/transfer of Tyler’s memories was, we could for all intents and purposes be dealing with a real person going through all the same feelings that “real” Tyler actually went through. Remember, even if Voq was altered immediately after the events of episode 4, by that time Tyler had already been a prisoner for six months. And that Tyler would be worth saving, even if he isn’t “real”. Look at what he’s done for the crew and Burnham so far: Got the Captain out of Klingon jail, even if L’rell set it up for him, it’s still “Tyler’s” initiative saving the Captain. Gave Burnhan the inspiration how to save Sarek in “Lethe” with his advise about what you think about when you’re about to die (Tyler WOULD know).… Read more »

Interesting. I’d buy that. Sort of like V’Ger copying Ilya too closely in TMP, to the point the probe *became* Ilya.

Yeah, the out is that Tyler IS Voq but the Tyler memories take over and he stays Tyler.

Another option is similar but that Voq is also conscious but chooses to remain Tyler due to his experiences.

Another option is they find the real POW Tyler but he’s “dead” and they save him by using the memory engrams from Tyler/Voq to save him so its the real Tyler but he is burdened with Voq’s memories and the memory of everything he did and everything that happened.

mirror universe series, love it,tilly is hot

Agreed. I’d love to get caught between her phase cannons.

she looked stunning with the long blonde hair and her outfit was amazing. You can tell Lorca and others was def eyeing her too

spoiler

I cant believe voq killed the doctor

Dude!

But yeah. Holy f**k. Sad. But wow.

I did not see that coming, I liked the doctor too dam, maybe they can save him somehow with discoverys tech and stamets ability to jump, he gonna jump till he finds his love again

I have seen in interviews with executive producers on EW that maybe we will see him again in some form. It was nice to read because they acknowledge too many gay people get killed and therefore they don’t get a happy ending. On the other hand I have to wonder if they bring him back is that ok? When should a character just die?

Yup, SPOILER ALERT – Cruz said on After Trek that his favorite scenes are still to come so stay tuned. I was surprised how shocking his death scene was, I know we all saw Tasha Yar die on TNG as well but this was more than a little shocking. Glad to see he will be back in some way, shape or form.

Yeah, I’d just read that online. Will have to watch After Trek, alas.

Well, Cruz could be talking about playing Mirror Colbur, or a holographic message to Stamets like we saw with Giorgiuo’s telescope.
Colbur seems pretty dead, plus, he knew too much. He was putting together the pieces with Lorca’s shady behavior regarding Stamets’ medical treatment and and was about to place Tyler in medical isolation because of his suspicions.

AfterTrek made it clear there will be no mirror Culber.

Ah, havent’ been able to see After Trek yet, the netflix version comes 24 hours after the episode, not directly after (most likely since they need some time to prepare subtitles for the non-english markets).

Why didn’t he get a security team to be present when he talked to him? Why didn’t he present his findings to the captain first? The whole thing was so frustrating and just felt like it was for shock value.

I thought the death was well-played and heartbreaking, but I also agree that several people are carrying the idiot ball in this series. Major security flaws are glossed over for plot purposes, it’s like this is a wartime situation, why is there only one person in sickbay? Why is Burnham not discussing Tyler’s strange behavior? This is all completely ridiculous…but I liked the ep.

And there is not a guard at the Brig?

I thought this episode was very good, but yeah, it had some flaws.

Yes that is pretty odd. How is there not a SINGLE guard around, especially now that they had a POW. A Klingon is a kin to holding a Nazi at this point, I would suspect they would have a few guards on her 24/7.

could’ve been outside the door?

Do you need a guard staring at the cell when you know its locked? In OUR jails, you dont have guards staring at each cell.

Could easily have been a guard outside the door. Tyler had the rank to dismiss any guard.

WHy would there be security in sickbay? We dont have security in hospital rooms today unless they are called. Hugh didnt think he needed security.

Security would’ve been helpful, but I just think in general there should be at least one more person in the sickbay of a starship? That it isn’t just a one man job? That’s what bugs me. I don’t care that there wasn’t security, don’t think there needed to be security. There just should’ve been *someone* else around to witness Tyler’s outbreak. But because everyone in this series is written to inexplicably give Tyler a pass despite all the red flags, he walks out of sickbay without arousing any suspicion at all. “I don’t know where I was” was a great cover too, doesn’t raise an eyebrow at all. >.>

To be fair, I really noticed the oddity of Culber being the only doctor we ever see in action. Lorca’s dialogue implies there are many doctors (or at least more than one) and we’ve heard reference to the CMO.

But it does seem odd that every time our characters have an issue, Dr Culber is their physician. Unless he just happens to be assigned their cases when they boarded so he will always see them.

But especially with Stamets, wouldnt a case that important be over-seen by the CMO?

I think there was another person in white uniform (most likely another doctor) looking after Stamets in one scene while Culber was talking to Tyler. If I remember correctly, this other person then left.

When Culber is talking to Tyler, don’t we see a Dr in the background with Stamets?

Well YES, obviously you do need a guard at the cell when the Manchurian candidate can just open it at any time as they showed.

And all people are saying is it makes sense to have ONE guard at least just like in a jail. Star Trek has guards posted for prisoners either inside or outside the room. This felt like it was done because obviously the plot called for it.

As for security in sick bay, yes I agree with that. They don’t normally have security there UNLESS its a prisoner being looked after so that I can let slide. But not the other one.

Also the thing that irks me the most about Stamets’ transformation following his mushroom trip is that his OWN PARTNER, the effing DOCTOR, doesn’t seem to notice his change in personality? Like are you kidding me? He should’ve been the first to see it. Makes no fkn sense.

makes perfect sense. Everyone noticed the change in personality. Tilly just happened to be around when he experienced the side effects

Exactly, big difference between “change in personality” and “side effects”. And as many people in a relationship know, sometimes you hide your weakness or vulnerabilities from the person closest to you, especially when they have the power to end your experiments.

Oh okay I can see that. I always assumed the “side effects” Tilly was referring to was the personality change. You’re both right that everyone did notice his personality change. Aite, I’ll give the writers a pass.

Why? Culber didnt know what it all meant, just that something happened to him. He still thought Tyler was his patient and he was giving him the results. Maybe he began to piece it together but then had his neck snapped.

Yeah, I thought it was a HUGE oversight that he was going to confront someone he knew to be compromised, and a potential spy, and he thought “Hey, I’ll just do this all by myself.”

Wow! Some random thoughts (with spoilers):

Poor Dr. Culber! I didn’t see that coming.

I’m calling it. Georgiou will be revealed as the Emperor!

A great call back to “In a Mirror Darkly” and the Defiant. But, apparently confirmation that this is a visual reboot (as if the Klingons and everything else wasn’t enough proof ha!). The Defiant was similar but had indentations in the saucer and an elbow in the warp pylon. Hope to see it for real later in the season.

I think that too about Georgiou!

I hope that we don’t see a situation where Burnham has to kill Georgiou.

Oh, I think this is *exactly* where we are being led…

Maybe she’ll be revealed to be Hoshi’s daughter?

yes! Michelle Y did tease she would come back and kick ass

I’m with you on Georgiou. Also loved the ENT callback. However I can see the differing Defiant appearance being canonically explained. After all, Defiant’s been in the MO for a hundred years. Surely they reverse engineered her systems [despite TOS MO being the same technologically as Prime TOS] and made some modifications to the ship in that time. What’s surprising is that it’s even still around at all. You think the Prime Defiant replaced the MO Defiant? Or is there ANOTHER copy of Prime universe Defiant in the MO?? God my head hurts.

I see the point, but I assumed that the image of the Defiant was from the prime Universe Discovery’s databank. If it were from the Klingon data module that Tyler procured with the worker bee, wouldn’t the info had been in Klingon? I just assumed Lorca found out about it from the Klingon data, then pulled up a picture from the Discovery’s records. But, even if so, maybe in this time period the Defiant looked that way (a Constitution variant) and was refitted prior to us seeing it in “The Tholian Web.”

Yeah that seems to all track! GJ! :D

good point good point! We will see! I’m just crossing my fingers that we see the Defiant in this series, although I doubt it. But seeing her in ENT had me drooling.

The only explanation for why tech didnt advance (or even why MU Enterprise didnt come along 100 years earlier) is because Sato kept it for herself and did not reverse engineer it because she didnt want anyone else having it.

Thus, she’s the only one with that tech (and whomever came after her, as implied, there was a Sato Dynasty for 100 years).

Actually, I doubted we’d see the Defiant, but if we do, Discovery should destroy it, thus ending the false “Empire” in the MU and creating an opportunity where the rebels have a chance years later.

You obviously never saw the Enterprise two-part Mirror Universe story, which would make the Defiant’s history completely clear.

I seen it, what do you mean?

Not necessarily. Think about how long the Defiant would have been in service. She was captured back in Archer’s time. There would have been a few refits by now if she was still actively in service.

Good shout on the emperor’s identity.

I’m hoping we see an accent Empress Hoshi Sato!

Another thing: To me, this also pretty much confirms that the Gabriel Lorca we’ve been seeing all season is from the MU and that the Prime Universe Lorca (the one Admiral Cornwell knew) died on the Buran.

this is very possible

It also explains why he recruited Burnham.

That is possible.
But, I did not see any clues that point to it in this episode.

I did. For one thing, he knows exactly how to behave in this universe. He’s not surprised by anything he encounters; in fact, it’s almost as if he’s expecting thing to occur as they do.

He gives up the Captain’s chair to Tilly bit too readily. He didn’t even think twice about hitting his head and injurying himself to give Burnham credibility.

Can you explain this? I don’t get that at all. I think Gabe is a good guy and Prime all the way.

Yeah I don’t get it either. Especially since he seemed just as surprised as everyone else. Sure he could be faking it but I didn’t feel that at all. And why would he still be playing along and trying to get ‘home’ via the Defiant if he’s already there? Unless of course he wants the ship for another reason like MU Archer did.

There are two things about Lorca hinting to the point he is from the mirror universe:
The scars on his back Cornwell was wondering about and that she said him he is not the one she used to know.
The override of the last jump through Lorca, bringing them to the mirror universe.
Why he did that, is not apparent to us until one of the next episodes.

except the symbol on his back wasn’t the imperial symbol it was star fleet in the prime universe, but I still like the idea.

The scar on his back was a Starfleet insignia? I thought it was just scarring…?

I dont think he’s MU but if he was, what if he wants to save his old ship somehow? Maybe he phased over to the MU during whatever happened that destroyed his ship and he wants a do-over, only to be forced to let it go to save Discovery.

pretty sure it was a delta, but would have to go back

Lorca is an angel… where he comes from. I also think he’s a good guy, but his real enemy is the Empire and what it stands for. Bearded Spock before his time, so to speak, and one who fails at his attempt.

Going Prime simply gave him another opportunity to have a go at it.

If you’re right it would be a cool idea for season 2, but a terrible one for season 1 since they’re supposedly pursuing this Klingon war story…they can’t have too many balls in the air

Nope. There’s a moment in the episode that without a doubt proves that “our” Lorca is NOT MU Lorca (though it sheds no light to his ultimate motives or why he recruited Burnham).

Can you elaborate on that moment? But yeah he seems pretty surprised through the whole thing but yes he could just be acting surprised.

Hmmm…. That Defiant is not a Prime Universe Constitution class vessel. Similar, yes, but just a tad different. There’s a lot more to this than meets the eye.

Its also been sitting around in the mirror universe for 100 years since “In a mirror Darkly” in Enterprise. I’m sure it went through a few enhancements and mods taking over the empire and all.

Good point.

yup my thoughts exactly ^

Yes but the wireframe ship on the display was labeled USS Defiant, not ISS.

I noticed that as well BUT it was originally the USS Defiant. I dunno. There was really no reason to alter the appearance of the Defiant.

My other thought is that we’re seeing the Defiant before the nacelles received an upgrade at some point over the decade that followed while in dry dock.

Yes it is a Prime Connie, thats just how they are going to look now. That is after all the easiest and cleanest way to do it.

Actually, it works. If they’re looking at a schematic of the Defiant from their database it’s possible that within the decade between this series and TOS that the nacelles and saucer were retrofitted at some point. The nacelles here are actually in line with those of the NX-01 in Enterprise. One dry dock a decade later and, boom, new nacelles.

Pic?

It is after the visual reboot. Or if you really want to grasp at straws, The Defiant had some refits between “now” (DSC time) and her disappearence in The Tholian Web (12 years later).

I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the entire season so far (some episodes more than others) but this was the first episode where I was totally pumped up and excited when the credits rolled.

Can’t wait for next week!

Agreed. I have a funny feeling that what unfolds the rest of the season will impact what happens in the Prime Universe.

If it does we can add it to the list of canon violations.

Or canon fixes.

And the end result would be that canon as we have known it for years was in fact the violation. Pretty cool when you think about it.

ooooh I like where you’re headed with this lol

Any chance we can nail down Frakes for next season? The man nailed it with this episode.

I completely disagree, I thought this was the weakest directed episode so far. He clearly doesn’t know how to direct this kind of show. The constant cutting mid-camera move, overuse of odd angles, I almost rather he shot this like an episode of TNG.

It wasn’t bad but not the best by a long shot.

I also think it was well-directed. It felt confident. The pacing was great. The music was also well used and actually added something, for once.

That being said, the other thing that’s apparent to me at least (and that Frakes has nothing to do with) is that the actors know their characters better now than they did at the start of the season.

I still wish the characters would SLOW DOWN in their dialogue. The words are on top of each other and it all feels so rushed, like they’re cramming in all the exposition and it’s so unnatural. Also the captain of the Cooper had the most absurd voice. You can hear him chewing the scenery from fifty lightyears away.

I thought the scenes where Tyler was realizing that his problems were deeper than he had initially thought were very tense and creepy. I definitely enjoyed his directing in those scenes.

I thought the camera angles and especially the rocking camera in the opening sequence were brilliant. He filmed it like a movie, closer camera angles. Loved it.

That’s a laughable remark. I will never understand the love for Frakes as a director. Had his name been Alan Smithee nobody would be remarking on last nights “brilliant directing.”

He’s an average TV director. Sometimes he makes good choices, and like this episode, sometimes he makes bad one.

Absolutely nothing special about his direction, and he’s not even in the top half of average TV directors.

That’s not a knock on him, he’s directed a lot of good stuff, I just think it’s crazy how people get excited when he’s going to direct something.

They’re excited because he’s Riker, not because he’s an especially good director. Last night was proof that he’s not. Weak stuff, directorially speaking. Thankfully the wonderful story, great script, and strong performances more than made up for it, particularly in the second half.

I found this episode the first time I really noticed all the angled camera shots and whatnot. It might be because I read the article where Frakes specifically mentioned those things. But to be honest, sometimes a shot should just be a shot. Doesnt have to be a crooked camera or sweeping whatever.

The fight scene in the turbolift was excellent though.

He landed a great script and delivered. I’m not sure what you consider a great television director or how you would have approached the material but I would say his work is on par with Michelle MacLaren and Adam Bernstein. He’s an underutilized director.

And give more leeway to Sean Cochran?

I agree as well. He directed the hell out of this episode. Especially the fight scene on the turbolift.

Great fight scene in a very tight and limited space.

Now thats how the Mirror Universe should be!

Do we know if Bryan Fuller was in any way, shape or form responsible for the appearance of the Mirrorverse?

Maybe. Does it matter? No. Let’s all stop talking about what was fuller and what wasn’t. Damn good show either way.

They had originally planned to visit the mirror universe in eps 4 or 5 but changed it to later. So this has been in planning for a long while according to After Trek.

Actually, I think it does. Everything I’ve disliked about the show so far seems to have come from him. I binge-watched the whole season today and the first two episodes were the ones I liked the least (with ‘Lethe’).

No more Sarek, please.

Maybe goatee-version Sarek will kick more butt

So matters to you because of your personal likes and dislikes. Nobody cares.

So you don’t care about the reasons behind your own likes and dislikes? About those of others? Why are you here then if not to share them with like-minded people?

I agree. The first two episodes, collectively a pilot, were tough. They needed more time in the oven. You can tell something happened (losing the producer, change in creative direction).

I agree. He wrote out the arc so yes I’m sure he was involved, but so?

Just Another Salt Vampire

Supposedly he had mapped out the first season before he departed, so possibly he was.

Fuller said they had planned the whole season before he left so yes I’m guessing he did. That said they could’ve changed things later on but that would seem like a BIG change so my guess is it was always there in some form.

they can do anything they want now in the mirror universe free from the shackles of many years of canon

Ummmm well not really since we’ve seen the mirror universe after this point.

They aren’t constrained by canon anyway. Only constrained by creativity.

true

yes agreed. I think it’s funny that only in TOS mirror episodes everyone wore the sexy clothes ;-)

Sato wore the bare midriff in Enterprise as well. And DS9 had sexy in a different way rather then just revealing.

I was looking forward to some bare skin! lol But I guess we have a different sensibility now.

Well yes and no. They can’t over do it because the MU has a story arc on its own thanks to TOS and DS9. But yes since we know very little about it compared to the PU they are certainly freer from canon.

indeed

Great episode! Really nailed it the mirror universe thing!

Soo is he dead? After Trek is says yes and no?

Maybe they keep mirror Culber

Maybe they clone mirror Culber and use the Klingon personality implantation technique

Producers made reference to the spore drive science changing things. That pretty much said they will make it back via spore drive and everything revert back to the way it was.

I’d suspect that the way back is Stamets jumps one more time, maybe sacrifices himself, probably not, but takes the risk.

I am guessing, stamets heals the doctor or locates him in an alternate universe

Looks like Trekmovie is back….

As I was going to say After Trek Confirmed _______ isn’t 100% dead. :D
I’m actually happy _____ is a good character. :D

I’ve really enjoyed the whole season, but this episode went to the next level. A job well-done to the cast and crew, and especially to Jonathan Frakes who obviously knows his Trek very well.

Also, I’m glad they’re dealing with Tyler and his recent past this early, rather than leaving it for the end of the season.

The “bury your gays” trope. I hope Dr. Culber’s death is fixed by a reset button or something.

see the next article. He’s not done with, he’ll be back thx to Stamets.

@Nebula1701 – Thanks. Just read it. So maybe Stamets uses the spores to heal Culber. Just guessing since they pointed to the real Stamet’s book for a clue.

Yeah that part was unfortunately, but Culber knew too much to stay alive (for now). He was about to figure out Lorca being shady and if he’d shared that with Burnham it would blow up in Lorca’s face. He knew about Tyler having issues and that would bar him as well.
Only question is, how long until they notice Culber is gone?

They’ve shifted the action from Discovery to Shenzhou for now but yeah, I was wondering when they’d find out.

Hands down, LOVED this episode! This is the first one I can truly say I loved. Jonathan Frakes did a great job here (as most of us knew he would) but the story was just great in general. I thought they did too much explaining setting up the MU but I have to remind myself not everyone watching this show has seen all the other shows before so it makes sense. And they are moving into it much slower, probably because the rest of the season will be about this universe. But I loved the call backs to both Enterprise and TOS. Even though I don’t love prequels I do admit the fan stuff like this is always fun. Now I’m really curious what exactly is the Defiant going to look like inside and out because this will be the FIRST ship we previously seen before on two separate shows. Will it look like the TOS look, big buttons and plywood, or are they going to Discovery that thing up and suddenly its going to have a sleek 21st century Trek bridge big enough to fit a small department store in. Whatever the Defiant look like will test the fanboys in ways they never been tested before. ;) Also the big twist of Dr. Culber death was a shock. I was not prepared for that ALTHOUGH they did say on AT that he will be back. Maybe not permanent though but its Star Trek, right? Also loved to see the… Read more »

Exactly this!

yes, I was blown away with the last one but this one is one of the best so far for Discovery.

When Tyler started to talk as Voq I was like dam! Even though we knew, it was still shocking to see it on screen.

And this answers some of the silly criticism as to why they didnt just use two different actors for Voq and Tyler. The point was to make a performance that was consistent all the way through.

For those more casual viewers or fans that dont dissect these things, that moment of Tyler speaking like Voq would have been a big one.

I have a feeling we wont see the Defiant. They left the details open because they dont want to commit to a “look” for the Connie. Unless there has been some confirmation that we’ll see the ship that I missed….

They could use Gabe Koerners design which immediately is recognizable as the old constituion class and looks modern at the same time. It’s that design wich a lot expected to see in the movies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giZ0VScAMaI

I like Gabe’s design a lot. Its not too slick and not altered for the sake of alteration. It has a “real world” look to it and sufficiently detailed to be interesting.

Was Saru’s threat ganglia triggered by Tyler entering the bridge or the approaching mirror Vulcan ship? I couldn’t tell. Sometimes things happen too fast for me to keep up with this show.

I think that was exactly the point… to have it be ambigious, for the viewer not to know if it is the Ship or Tyler, definitely worked for me.

poor lorca getting shocked at the end there and voq and burnham playing patty cakes

I knew it was coming but..ughh. I don’t like anything miserable… Hope that’s not a regular feature of the remaining episodes. Not into torture scenes thanks.

be interesting to see mirror universe voq and ash on screen at the same time

I think the official term for this week’s episode is BAM! ‘cause they definitely kicked it up a notch. I’ve been enjoying the show a lot thus far, but they’ve really set the stage for some exciting storylines and new directions. Frakes directed the bejeezus out of this one and it was a top drawer script as well. Can’t wait to see where they go with this.

Exactly! And for me I’m just happy its Star Trek getting weird again lol. The war story line is just a bit boring to me, but to see them in another universe, Stamets having some weird affect who apparently can see things both in various dimensions and time, Tyler and Voq sharing two consciousness in one body and craziest of all: A Captain Tilly (which is pretty scary on its own) its getting back to the trippy science Trek that I love. They even threw in a ‘temporal anomaly’ for good measure.

And yes, Frakes did an amazing job. Get this man back ASAP!

yes, loved it, worth the wait!

Oh and we finally saw an Andorian. He’s in the teaser for next Sunday’s show (leading the group walking into the camp). You can see the tips of his antennae and even has the bushy hair like TOS Andorians.

Oh seriously???? Our first freakin Andorian, FINALLY! I’m so excited now. They been teasing this group all season, so can’t wait.

One of the best episodes so far!

But I have some big issues with logic on this one.
Discovery recognizes at once that the other ships are different. In the mirror universe, more or less slight differences should exit, especially with the Prime Defiant in it and Prime Discoverys spore drive. Why are the Empire ships not getting it?

The next thing is Ash. Just with the shortening of bones and transplantation of organs a future medical scanner shouldn’t get spoofed, especially if there are still remains of klingon anatomy like bones and brain. That was not very credible.

Enough whining, what a great episode!

The biggest thing is, “hey that ship us USS instead of ISS”. But its never shown that any ship is close enough to see them (except the Vulcans – and wouldnt that be a great cameo for T’Pol as a Mirror Universe rebel and she recognizes that Discovery is from the Prime Universe and helps them).

Anyway….as for the medical examination, I guess we can assume earlier exams of Tyler were general in nature. Only when Culber went looking did he find odd things…and he still doesnt know exactly what happened, just that he needs to look further. Whatever the Klingons did, they did very well!

@AtzeH — you’ve got a point about the spore drive … The Empire is not going to give a crap about what it does to the tardigrade or the crew member being damaged by it. Every ship should have it. No ethical reason why not …

@Curious Cadet: I don’t think mirror Discovery has a spore drive. But shouldn’t the existence of the prime Defiant have altered ships in the MU to a large scale? The Federation in the PU hadn’t such an advantage.

Voq was likely infected with the Augment virus before his bones were shortened. That would cause his body to become human and then they adjusted the transformed “human” body to fit Tyler (perhaps grafted his face on top?) the Klingons are being painted as pretty savage and sadistic, imaging what crazy shit types of torture you could do with medical tech as advanced as we see on Star Trek. It makes my blood curdle. That could be plausible in-universe explanation for the scarring.

If they ever found POW Tyler and he was missing his face, that would be something….lol

Hopefully the transformation does provide an “augment” shout out. We’ve seen Klingons perfectly transforms to humans before (Darvin) so its not some new crazy thing.

I thought it was cool that they tied into “Enterprise” by making the Defiant a key element to the story. Pretty cool.

Yes, what happened with the Defiant is an intriguing question. Presumably, Sato would not ever get off that ship lol. But realistically, if the Empire reverse engineered the ship, their tech should be far more advanced than Discovery’s.

Also, if the plan is to learn how Defiant crossed over, they are going to be disappointed. if I recall, it was just some interphase rift or something, wasnt it? Unless that rift is still in effect years later, it wont help them.

Ofcourse, they could imply MU people crossed back over to Prime many years previous and that impacted the technological advancement of Discovery (IF they want to make it something other then an obvious modern visual update).

A lot of people bring up the point that the Terran Empire should be more advanced because of Defiant, but you also have to consider their politics and attitudes. Empress Sato would probably keep the Defiant’s tech to herself for a long time, possibly only slowly disseminating it’s tech throughout the Empire during the length of her reign. This would constantly give her an edge. She might also have people reverse engineering it, but that would take a lot of secrecy and likely a small team of people, or a constant rotation of people with each previous group being murdered after they’ve done their part. It’d be a long process to even get another Constitution-type ship completed. So no, I don’t think they’d be more advanced. Possibly even less advanced in some ways and more in others. Their normal development would be stunted without the cooperation of the other races that make up the Federation in the Prime universe, so any advances would come from whatever Sato let off the Defiant or from what is taken from other races. In the end, it might lead them to roughly the same level of technological development as the Prime universe.

I like this! It makes the best sense!

I found this article quite interesting about the Defiant: https://www.inverse.com/article/39985-star-trek-discovery-mirror-universe-uss-defiant

OK, I just learned there is a novel out there called Glass Empire that says the mirror universe dynasty started by Hoshi Sato lasts for about 100 years. Here’s my prediction: the DSC writers took that potential plot point – as they have with other ideas from novels – and made Philippa Georgiou Sato’s (great?) grand-daughter and the last emperor of the Sato dynasty. They’re both Asian, which creates a subtle visual connection, and it’s a way of developing another personal dramatic conflict for Michael Burnham. She already had kill a mirror Danby Connor just to survive. It also keeps the theme of strong female and people of color characters, albeit villainous in this case. I also think there will be at least three episodes in the mirror universe, if not all of chapter two (six episodes). So there it is… my prediction. Bring it!!

ooh good catch about the Novel!

I immediately wondered that with the “Asian” connection. Hoshi was Japanese. Philippa is Chinese (if I recall correctly). Of course, in the future, will it really matter?

If the Empire had the Defiant for any length of time, their tech should be far more advanced than Discovery’s.

That also implies that the tech in the original mirror universe episode should have been advanced, which wasn’t the case. The ISS Enterprise looked exactly like the USS Enterprise (of course we know that they didn’t have the budget to alter it). And here is another thought: what, if the mirror-universe in Discovery is already set in an alternate timeline caused by the events after the tholian web (TOS) /in a mirror darkly (ENT)? Until the tholian web both universes existed parallel. And by the way:
What does the ISS Discovery do in the prime universe? Are we gonna see it? It should have a great impact.

I dont like the idea of multiple mirror universes. Whats the point? One of the issues with the JJ films is that the creation of a new universe means nothing really matters and we dont need to care about the characters.

Im not sure this will be explained. It might be the case of needing to just not think about it too deeply. But if it were me, I’d have someone ask that question – ‘if they had the Defiant 100 years ago, why isnt their tech more advanced?’ and the answer simply be because Sato never allowed anyone else to copy or reverse-engineer it. Voila.

Its a mind bender. On TOS, Mirror Mirror came before the Tholian Web so from Kirk’s perspective, he crossed over BEFORE the Defiant went back in time.

But from the Mirror perspective, Defiant was there for a 100 years.

Wouldn’t quantum theory say that mirror mirror was one timeline and when Defiant went back it created another timeline? I know we’re getting deep.

Hoshi was written as Japanese, along with a Japanese name, but it was never stated in canon (but in an outtake scene, according to Memory-Alpha). She was played by Linda Park, who born in South Korean.

Michelle Yeoh is ethnically Chinese, born in Malaysia. (She didn’t grow up speaking Mandarin or Cantonese). I don’t think it is ever stated in canon that Georgiou, (whose name is Greek/Mediterranean) is ethnically Chinese.

Probably the best episode so far. Can we just get Jonathan Frakes to direct every episode? He really got the actors to nail their performances.

@TonyD — the actors all continued their fine performances I’ve been watching all season. I didn’t see anything particularly different about Frakes contribution than any other episode directed by any other director I’ve seen so far.

Maybe it was the fact that the crew needed to pretend to be more ruthless but I just thought everyone was able to let loose in this episode. Sonequa Martin Green was much more effective and far less wooden than she has been in other episodes. Mary Wiseman was similarly much more interesting here than she’s been. I also thought the camera angles and general pacing were snappier here. A lot of that goes to the writers and editors but the director is the one ultimately responsible for pulling everything together.

I’ve liked Discovery from the startand have enjoyed it; I just thought this episode took it to another level.

Frakes has cinematic movie experience, which probably does help in some way. Movies are generally of higher quality in terms of acting, pacing, camera work.

Even though this is a tv episode, Frakes probably can tap into his experience with film-making, and enhance the final product.

I use to joke about this on the other shows he directed but I always imagine Frakes motivating all the other actors by saying, “Do you think Sir Patrick Stewart would’ve played it better in that scene? OK, then let’s do it again.”

I would have to agree. Frakes is one of them. Not just as a Star Trek actor but as an actor himself. Actors will loosen up a bit when they trust their director and Frakes has been on both sides of the camera with this franchise on multiple series.

Theory: Discovery has never existed in the Prime Universe but will end up IN the Prime Universe. It’s mission will ultimately be that of a multiverse.

Just a theory.

I’m sorry that just sounds way too complicated. Its in the prime universe. People have to accept it and move on.

Too complicated? The path of this episode is Star Trek’s “The Tholian Web” in 1968, Star Trek: Enterprise’s “In a Mirror, Darkly” in 2005 and now Star Trek: Discovery’s “Despite Yourself” in 2018. That’s a 50 year story arc.

It isn’t too complicated, it’s Star Trek.

And it’s just a theory.

Star Treks first Gay couple- reduced to a zombie & killed off as a stunt. The underlying homophobia is so ripe they may have well thrown the faggot off a building.
I can hear all the right wing fans of the show cheering his death. Thanks for giving them what they want instead of giving us Positive representation. Fuk you.

The show was always intended to be a Mirror Universe show where all the qualities of Star Trek could be discarded in favour of violence & hate

It’s a disgusting Mirror Universe rape of Star Trek.

I actually didn’t think Discovery could get worse. It’s too pathetic to be disgusting. At least the show has revealed its true colours.

As have you. You sound like one of those right wingers.

These are the types that probably lambasted Discovery for even having same sex couples. And now lambaste them for killing one of them.

Here’s a clue, dummies, the story isnt complete yet.

Of course, because they’re trolls. They think they own Star Trek and that the only legitimate Star Trek is what they want. Since the series has gone in another direction, they’re determined to just hang around and throw any and all criticisms at the wall to see what sticks. Their comments aren’t legitimate critiques, they’re trolling so hypocrisy and inconsistency is to be expected.

My thoughts exactly. Thank you for expressing them.

Everything you just said was wrong.

Characters tend to die. If you want to have gay characters on a show where people die, you have to deal with the fact that gays might die just like everybody else. Contrary to what you may have been led to believe, gayness does NOT make one immortal.
Or are you suggesting that they should have some sort of “protected status” for gay characters, like there is for children?

(Also yes, I admit doing a thumbs-up towards the screen and whispershouting “yay” when Ash broke doctor’s neck. But that was mostly because I just didn’t like the character. Honestly can’t understand what Stamets ever saw in him…)

Well Trekboi, see yourself out.

(clutches pearls)
But seriously, why are you here?

troll

So, a thoroughly enjoyable episode that plays on the storylines of the past and plays with some of the tropes. Instead of a few crew members having to act the part – the whole ship (including the ship itself!) has to act the part. Some nice moments – like Lorca quickly shutting down the discussion (and actually shutting off the map) during the discussion of how to get back – clearly (to me, at least) hiding something. Like the reference to Defiant and the tying in of TOS and ENT – in a bit of mind bending temporal math – the ship from Discovery’s Future, being thrown into a mirror universe in the past, catching up with them in the present.

A couple of things I bumped on…

Like the convenience of how the Klingon Data recovered gave them enough info to perfectly replicate the uniforms and ship…and gave them data on the bios of everyone…but was missing just enough crucial data.

…and seriously, they went outside and painted the letters? Like who had to go do that? Or is Discovery’s hull like one of those LED billboards in TimesSquare that can be anything?

All in all a bit of over-acted (in a good way) fun.

“…and seriously, they went outside and painted the letters? Like who had to go do that?”

Robots. It was clearly shown in the episode.

Good eyes, I thought it were workbees at first. I need a bigger screen. ;)

Either way, it didn’t look like painting, more like replacing a sticker. Causing sparkles, for some reason. Might it be that those letters are actually welded on the hull?

I am really liking “Captain Killy”. It will be interesting to see what lasting effects playing her evil counterpart has on Tilly. Perhaps we will be seeing a more confident and assertive character after this.

I am also left wondering what went wrong with Tyler/Voq’s triggering phrase. Seems like there is going to be an internal conflict between the two personas and maybe Tyler’s love for Burnham is what is keeping Voq from completely emerging.

Yeah probably something along the lines of his emotional connection fueling the “fake” Tyler engrams or something.

I think DSC is prime universe (it is because the producers say that it is), but with a visual upgrade. So expected that the Constitution would have a visual upgrade that had no impact on canon. I think, as others have said, every instance of returning back to the 60s look of TOS in the other series was more of an HOMAGE then DSC can be. Discovery is set in that world and I think the upgrade is necessary. Some upgrades should be explained and some should not. There are some changes I like more then others. Like, the general ship design I think is great. I think if they had simply used the colors of The Cage uniforms with the new design that would have been better and more respectful. I am glad there is a small upgrade to the Constitution Class design,just enough that feels consistent with both TOS and DSC. New Star trek needs to look like our future and TOS, regardless of how nostalgic we are about it’s place in our lives, DOES NOT look like our future.

None of the changes in the Defiant’s silhouette make it more advanced. In fact, it looks less advanced because it isn’t as streamlined. I’m all for an update in the details and aesthetic, and I can embrace change, but in my opinion they uglied it up and I’m hoping the changes will be explained and plot-specific. My guess is the ship has undergone some changes/refits in the 100 years it’s been in the MU.

Ok,somebody help me understand this. So, you have ent mirror showing a bit of the rebellion with andor tellar and Vulcan. It’s mentioned in this dsc episode that the Klingon ship had them on it meaning no Vulcans in the empire. However just a few years later we will see mirror Spock on the enterprise.

They’re just rebels, similar to those in Enterprise’s Mirror episodes.

A great deal can happen in ten years.

When Burnham finds out Tyler is actually Voq it would be soul crushing. You fell for someone who had a role in killing your captain and mother figure, who ate her.

Burnham had never loved and her 1st love is a tragic hero/villain in tyler/voq. Make audience fall in love with Tyler then bam you fell for Voq.

Burnham is such a tragic character too, her captain and motherly figure killed by T’Kuvma. Gets labeled as 1st mutiner and blamed for the war. Falls in love with identity crisis spy. Will try to save Tyler and kill Voq. Will encounter evil version of Gerogiou.

Looking forward to more excellet episodes!

It is likely that Georgiou is Empress, but couldn’t it also be evil Cornwell? She seems to be an enemy to (MU?) Lorca when I think about their scene in bed in an earlier episode.

The emperor could be Khan

likely in this Universe Khan is good or was never genetically enhanced.

no more Khan please. This time he would be Australian or something

Where is the Trekmovie review of the episode? It is usually posted by now. It is one of my favorite parts of the Discovery experience.