Review: ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Spins Its Greatest Hits In “What’s Past Is Prologue”

REVIEW: “What’s Past is Prologue”

Star Trek: Discovery Season 1, Episode 13 – Debuted Sunday January 28th
Written by Ted Sullvian
Directed by Olatunde Osunsanmi

The action ramps up more than ever for what may be Discovery’s most exciting episode of the season. Jason Isaacs steals the show as Lorca, chewing up the scenery as he dominates the story throughout and in some surprising ways. The effects and stunt teams up their game, delivering more punches and explosions than we’ve seen since the two-part debut in September. And in what has been a pattern of late for the show, the twists keep coming, setting up the upcoming final two episodes of the season.

Just as he did in “Lethe,” writer Ted Sullivan digs into the lore of both the series and Star Trek as a whole, and even a bit of another franchise from a galaxy, far, far away. “What’s Past is Prologue” wraps up a few story lines and plays well with the serialized nature of the show with callbacks and character development. At the same time, there is also an interesting exploration of the theme of fate throughout along with some allegorical messages.

“What’s Past is Prologue” rewards fans who have been paying attention (or later binge the series) as this disco is spinning its greatest hits.

Jason Isaacs in “What’s Past is Prologue”

[SPOILERS BELOW]

I’m So Excited

After three episodes in the Mirror Universe, it was time to wrap things up and go for the big showdown and “What’s Past is Prologue” does not disappoint. It doesn’t even bother with a teaser, and just dives back in where last week left off. After the big reveal from “Vaulting Ambition,” it was clear that the now revealed “Mirror” Lorca has been orchestrating things all season long as part of an elaborate plan to get onto Emperor Georgiou’s ship and finish his revolution.

While Discovery likes to keep a lot of plates spinning in most episodes, often with A,B,C,D and more threads running, this time things were simple. We get three POVs, all of which were tied together: Lorca and his gang of Terran Empire rebels trying to take over the ISS Charon, Michael avoiding Lorca and seeking escape from the ISS Charon, and Saru and the crew of the USS Discovery seeking a way to get Burnham back and put this dark universe in their rear view mirror.

Was there a sale on agony booths at Evil Home Depot?

Macho Man

Lucky for Lorca, all his old friends were conveniently on board the ISS Charon, just ready to be decanted from their agony booths. Considering they were being tortured for almost two years, they seemed in good shape. We soon have a reunion with Rekha Sharma, now playing the Mirror Commander Landry, although it’s hard to distinguish her with her hard-ass (and thankfully dead) Starfleet counterpart. Rejecting her advice to withdraw, Lorca lets us all know he is the evil man, with the evil plan.

They are also soon reunited with Mirror Stamets, now out of his coma and hiding in his lab. It turns out evil Paul was part of Lorca’s revolution but finked to the Emperor. So, it was not a happy reunion. We also finally get a too-quick flashback, telling us the Lorca backstory. Turns out, while he was beaming up to the ISS Buran (while it was under attack by the ISS Charon) an ion storm caused a good, old-fashioned, universe-swap transporter malfunction, just like in “Mirror, Mirror.” Classic.

Whatever you do, don’t look behind you

Good thing this Stamets has a nasty bio weapon to smooth over the pain of his betrayal, and Lorca didn’t waste any time using it, killing much of the ISS Charon’s massive crew in a very gruesome way. But that’s apparently just how things are done in the Terran Empire, as he follows that up by asking the rest of the crew to join him.

In “Mirror, Mirror,” Kirk tells Mirror Spock “In every revolution, there is one man with a vision,” and Lorca certainly has a vision, made even more fervent now that he believes the hands of destiny and fate have saved him to rule. He delivers a too familiar sounding speech about the threat of aliens spilling over the border and vowing to “make the empire glorious again.” Star Trek has never shied away from political allegory, and this was just as subtle as a native of Cheron’s face.

Lorca also reveals that he doesn’t want a hair on Michael Burnham’s head touched. She, it seems, is also part of his destiny. This again shows how Discovery has been playing the long game all season, when you look back to how Lorca got Burnham out of prison and has been protecting her all along. His Burnham is dead, but apparently Michael Prime will serve very nicely as a replacement.

But where is the red hat?

Stayin’ Alive

As Lorca ramps up his revolution, Michael Burnham finds herself at the mercy of Emperor Georgiou. Perhaps due to nostalgia for her Captain Georgiou, Michael seems ready to join #TeamEmperor in this fight, offering advice on how to deal with Lorca. But Georgiou isn’t playing, reminding Michael “Your choices have determined your fate,” which was probably Burham’s first prison tattoo. In another moment that bookends with the two-part pilot, this Georgiou orders for Burnham to be sent to brig. The Emperor has more important things to deal with, notably capturing and killing Lorca personally.

This all results in the first of a number of elaborate fight scenes for the episode, with Sonequa Martin-Green again showing off some strong moves. She also shows off her research of the Terran Empire, as she borrows a guard’s personal agonizer to give him a time out. Michael then makes her escape, revealing the Terran Empire may have an exchange program with the Galactic Empire as the remaining guards trying to stop her showed off a lack of accuracy rivaled only by Imperial Stormtroopers.

Aren’t you supposed to ask before using someone’s agonizer?

We Are Family

Over on the good ship USS Discovery, things start out a lot more relaxed. We even get a nice little captain’s log from acting captain Saru. He gets us all back up to speed on the plot, reminding us Stamets is back, but his crop of Spore engine-powering space fungus is dead.

In a classic Treknobabble-laced exposition briefing, we learn the level of peril is much worse than imagined. That glowy orb at the center of the ISS Charon turns out to be a big ball of mycelial power drawn from the network, delivering huge amounts of power, allowing it to play Death Star and destroy planets. However, the inconvenient truth is revealed that this “shortsighted” generation of power is poisoning the network which will, astoundingly, kill every living thing in every universe, everywhere. That’s a lot of environment, in case you didn’t get the allegorical nail being hammered.

They seem calm for people talking about the end of all life everywhere

Eventually Burnham – hiding out in the ISS Charon’s evil Jefferies Tubes –  makes contact and let’s them know Lorca is Mirror Lorca and they let her know that everyone, everywhere is going to die unless the Charon’s core is exploded. So, a plan is worked out for her to play Obi Wan and lower a containment field so the Discovery can play Luke Skywalker and come in to torpedo it.

After more of the crew get involved in working on a plan, it is revealed that the Discovery is going to have to use up all of its spores to take out the Charon and it won’t survive the resulting detonation. But Saru isn’t ready to give in. Doug Jones continues to impress as he donkey-kicks out a rousing speech about duty and working together on this newly-declared “maiden voyage” of the USS Discovery, sans Lorca. It was a wonderful Star Trek moment, referencing his ability to sense the coming of death as well as Starfleet Acadmey’s famed “no-win scenario,” which he refuses to accept.

The core of all evil

A follow-up scene has Tilly and Stamets come up with the solution to not only surviving the attack on the Charon, but also getting them home, something involving a surfing a wave on a warp bubble – how cool is that? The goal of the three previous episodes of using the data from the USS Defiant to get home is now clearly just a red herring used by Lorca to get onto the Emperor’s ship. Now that Stamets is awake, he says he can just reverse engineer Lorca’s data that got them into Mirror Universe to get them out. Easy peasy mycelium squeezy.

All the scenes on board the USS Discovery are a delight in this episode and are full of classic Star Trek feels. You have weird science, motivating rhetoric, and lots of teamwork, and all of that before you even get to the cool parts with the torpedoes firing. Sullivan also took the time to highlight more of the crew contributing, including Detmer, Owosekun, Rhys and Airiam.

If you are all here, who is flying the ship?

Love To Love You Baby

Eventually the Emperor and Lorca meet outside her throne room, but Georgiou appears to be unfazed, or maybe her confidence comes from her personal shield and emergency transport backup wristband. Regardless, Michelle Yeoh and Jason Isaacs have a good round of evil dialoguing before she escapes after a rather dull firefight.

Now in command of the throne room and ship, the usefulness of Mirror Stamets came to an end. Lorca pulls a Mr. Burns, opening a trapdoor in the floor, teasing evil Paul with the poetic nature of being thrown into his own mycelial creation. However, Lorca continues his metamorphosis into Bond-villain territory as he just has the mad scientist vaporized, exclaiming “I hate poetry.”

Let’s call this Chekhov’s Door for now

Lorca is now seen to be somewhat obsessed with Burnham. He continues to use the ship’s PA system to let her know he sees a connection with her as part of his fate to lead. Her mutiny is evidence to him that she should agree that the Federation is a “social experiment, doomed to failure.” He then said “You can destroy the Emperor…It is your destiny! Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy.” OK, he didn’t say that last bit, but he might as well have.

Burnham disagrees as she goes to find Georgiou, hiding out and caressing the Terran Empire badge of her dead daughter. So, everyone carries badges of their lost loved ones and everyone is much obsessed with at least one Burnham.

For her part, Michael still seems to see her Captain Georgiou in this Emperor, and wants to make amends for her betrayal. The regret of her actions in the two-part pilot continue to haunt her and she uses that emotion to connect and convince the Emperor that together they can defeat Lorca. Why Michael so easily trusts this ruthless Georgiou is a bit perplexing. She seems to be projecting the memories of a dead counterpart, just like Lorca is doing with her. But all the scenes with Michelle Yeoh and Sonequa Martin-Green sell it anyway.

The ISS Charon has many shades of gloomy

Everybody Is Kung Fu Fighting

With a plan in place, it’s time for Burnham to use the Wookiee Prisoner Trick yet again, bringing Georgiou to the throne room to meet Lorca. She promises she will stay with him if he lets the USS Discovery go, but she also makes it clear “I’m offering you my mind, nothing more.” Ouch. Even the Mirror Universe has a friend zone. Lorca is so blinded by his hatred of the Emperor and faith for his shared destiny with Burnham, that he can’t see this is all some kind of trap and ups his bad guy parlance by telling Georgiou “Looks like you’re destined to be betrayed by Burnhams in every universe.”

Saru and the Discovery get a call and drop out of warp, where Lorca tells them how proud he is of the warriors they have become under his guidance. It’s almost touching until he calls the Federation a cult, but still kind of nice. Burnham chimes in to let Saru know that she is going to stay, but her saying “this is my place” turns out to be some kind of signal to start the epic action sequence.

You are all going to miss me

The Discovery opens fire on the Charon, things start exploding, and Michelle Yeoh reminds everyone that she has starred in quite a few Hong Kong action films. Even though it’s just Burnham and Georgiou versus Lorca, Landry and his whole army, the fight eventually narrows down to just a handful, helped by a couple of inexplicable moments, like Landry vaporizing a guy fighting Burnham just so she could fight Burnham, and Lorca knocking out Landry just so he can step in to take on Georgiou.

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Emperor

Finally, it comes down to just Burnham and Lorca. He hesitates because he doesn’t want to kill her (remember, he’s obsessed) and she gets the upper hand. In another classic Trek moment, she won’t kill him either, telling him he should have just asked for help to get home and it would have been given, adding “That’s who Starfleet is. It’s who I am.” This unveils the ultimate tragedy of Lorca. In a twist on the Shakespearean-inspired episode title, Lorca believes he understands Burnham’s past and it is a prologue to a choice for her to join him. But, he never really understood her. While her logic led her to a mutiny and she lost faith in herself, she never lost faith in the ideals of the Federation and Starfleet.

Unfortunately for Lorca, Georgiou is not Starfleet and she skewers him with her sword and throws him through that door in the floor and he gets disintegrated in a puff of super-villainy.

It’s just a flesh wound

Disco Inferno

Emperor Georgiou continues her transformation as she helps Burnham lower the core’s containment field and vows to sacrifice herself to allow Burnham and the Discovery time to destroy the core. But Michael isn’t done with this Georgiou yet, as she gives her a life-saving mid-transport hug, taking the Emperor with her back to the Discovery.

Saru and the USS Discovery continue their attack, destroying the Charon and its mycelial network-poising hub and – perhaps for the last time ever – going to Black Alert. The ship rides the wave as the mycelial network repairs itself, but Stamets struggles to find the right path home. The data from Lorca’s diversion into the Mirror Universe isn’t doing the trick, but the memory of Hugh Culber inserts itself, reminding him to seek out the clearing in the forest. And so the ship is literally saved through the power of love, as Paul says thanks to his late partner, who may or may not be alive in some way inside the network.

Hang a left at the next squiggly bit

There is one little extra beat here that seems significant, as one last tiny spore floats around the lab, landing on Tilly’s shoulder. Was this a callback to episode 3 where Stamets was introduced, swiping spores off his shoulder? Or perhaps is this spore the beginning of a whole new forest some day? It is unclear for now.

The effects throughout these final sequences are impressive, as they were throughout the episode. For a show set in space, shots of the ships have been too spare throughout the series, but this episode seemed to have the most ship action since “Battle at the Binary Stars.” The ship on a Star Trek show is always one of the characters and the USS Discovery put in a great performance in “What’s Past is Prologue.”

Time to go

We end the episode finding out that the Mirror Universe arc is over, but the season arc is not. Yes, Discovery has yet another twist. They are back in the Alpha Quadrant, but oops, Paul got the time wrong and they have missed nine months of the war and it appears, during that time, that the Federation sort of lost the war, with a map showing just a handful of planets left that are not under the control of the Klingons.

I, for one, welcome our new Klingon overlords

The Hustle

“What’s Past is Prologue” brings an end to Captain Gabriel Lorca. This character has been fascinating since being introduced in episode 3. Thanks to a layered performance by Jason Isaacs, Lorca has been mysterious and compelling and the focus of all sorts of theories, some of which turned out to be true. So, it’s going to be hard for some to say goodbye. It has been known since the beginning that the creators of Discovery are inspired by Game of Thrones and Lorca appears to be the Ned Stark of this series.

The message is clear – actions have consequences and there is real jeopardy on this show and all of that is good to see in a Star Trek series. However, this episode almost seemed to want to soften the blow by portraying Lorca as not just a dark and nuanced character, but profoundly evil to an almost cartoonish degree.

Discovery itself has shown that being from the Mirror Universe does not make a character nefarious –  just look at Mirror Sarek, Saru and Voq. So, this final stage of Lorca’s portrayal was not a given, and perhaps not necessary. An irony of this episode is how it paid off the journey of the crew of the USS Discovery, now working together as a well-oiled machine. Saru says the ship is no longer Lorca’s, but isn’t Lorca the captain who put that machine together?

Some may revel in the over-the-top wickedness, and may see it as all part of his pattern from day one. Lorca never fit into Starfleet and now we know why. But I for one am going to miss Captain Lorca and would like to think that maybe the Federation could use a few men like him at times. I would like to think the intriguing character we were introduced to and explored throughout this season was genuine and not all just an act that has now been unmasked. Regardless, the exit Lorca and Isaacs will certainly leave a big hole in this show. Perhaps Michelle Yeoh’s expat Emperor Georgiou will be able to fill the void, but Lorca leaves behind a long shadow.

You will be missed

And The Beat Goes On

“What’s Past is Prologue” grabbed from the start and never let go, thanks to perfect pacing set by director Olatunde Osunsanmi. The episode was filled wall-to-wall with excellent performances, copious calls to the lore of the series and the franchise, compelling effects and more action than seen in the series to date.

Even with all of that going on, it still found time to deliver allegorical warnings about the environment, xenophobia and authoritarianism. Perhaps a bit preachy, but that’s nothing new with Trek. There was also a good amount of character development, especially moving the ball down field for Burnham’s journey of redemption. While we may be curious as to what’s going on with L’Rell and Tyler, this episode benefits by staying focused and leaving their story lines to be picked up later.

It is no surprise that Jason Isaacs’ time as Lorca has come to an end. A high profile actor like him was never likely to stick around for a series season after season, especially not in the lead part. He played his final bow with great relish and it was a lot of fun to watch but it might also have been a missed opportunity to end his arc in a more nuanced way.

While a very welcome and satisfying conclusion, it’s nice to finally put the Mirror Universe arc to an end, as the show probably spent one or even two episodes too long away from home. As if hanging a lantern on that, we now have the latest twist – because apparently you need one every episode now – that we missed the war and it was lost, or close to it.

There are just two episodes of Discovery‘s first season left. They have a lot to do if the Klingon arc is going to wrap up with the good guys winning and I can’t wait to see how they pull off that twist.

Must resist instinctual urge to run away, must resist instinctual urge to run away, must..

Random thoughts, connections, easter eggs

  • While evil, Mirror Landry still seemed nicer than Prime Landry.
  • Assuming Lorca Prime swapped in right before the ISS Buran was destroyed, he was killed shortly after arriving in the Mirror Universe, but you never know for sure.
  • Given the timeframe, it appears the Lorca swap happened before the war with the Klingons began.
  • Saru ponders why his threat ganglia didn’t warn him about Lorca. Which is a good question. Either it didn’t work, or maybe Lorca was never a threat to the crew of the USS Discovery.
  • There are a number of moments with bright light on the ISS Charon, but all the Terrans forgot they were sensitive to it.
  • One of the subtle ways this episode enhanced its classic Star Trek feel was use of old-fashioned 2D screen conversations instead of the newfangled holograms.
  • The activation of phasers on this show is really loud, making it hard to imagine they would be useful in a stealth situation.
  • The Terran phasers also only seem to have one setting: painfully vaporize.
  • It appears the Disco’s crew spent their time flying around in warp to do costume changes to get out of their Terran Empire disguises, including saying goodbye to Tilly’s “Captain Killy” straight hair.
  • The scene where Lorca’s troops are revealed in the corridor to the throne room (see clip below) was reminiscent of the Borg reveal in Star Trek: First Contact.

Clips

 


Star Trek: Discovery is available on CBS All Access on in the US and airs in Canada on the Space Channel. It is available on Netflix outside the USA and Canada.

Keep up with all the Star Trek: Discovery news at TrekMovie.

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Chris Bahn

Awesome review. Loved tonight’s episode. :)

somethoughts

fantastic review and episode, more please

Old Trekker

To the cast and crew of Star Trek Discovery: Thank you for tonights Trekgasm!

AJinMoscow

And what about Mirror Discovery in “our” universe? Were they caught and processed a la “It is easier for civilized men to behave like barbarians then it is for barbarians to behave like civilized men?” and we assume they just popped back home as the mirror officers did in “Mirror, Mirror”? Or did they somehow help the Klingons advance during the 9 months the Disco was away from home, and Captain ‘Killey’ still needs to be dealt with? Stay tuned?….

Curious Cadet

@AJM — I’m assuming the MU Disco either turned tail and ran to get out of harms way, or maybe they did do something to accelerate the Klingon war. I think that’s why the previews have the Admiral so suspect of the Disco. They’re either back for the first time since they were ordered to do something they had no ability to do (use the spore drive), and didn’t; or they turned on the Federation. It’s hard to believe they would side with the Klingons being xenophobes, but they might have exploited the opportunity. Interesting thoughts you’ve provoked …

Curious Cadet

PS — they may have well popped back into the MU, I’ve never really understood how that’s supposed to work, and felt it was kind of a cheat in TOS. However, I hope they don’t use that excuse without trying to explain it … It’s not 1967 anymore — you can’t just switch Darins and everybody be OK with it! Haha. I’m kind of hoping MU Discovery didn’t pop back to the MU.

AJinMoscow

If Emperor Georgiou is now in ‘our’ Universe, and so is the ‘Mirror’ Discovery, perhaps she will be able to harness their loyalty and they’ll work in tandem with ‘our’ Discovery as part of a solution to reverse the Klingon occupation. Then, everyone who wants to will go home to the Mirror Universe on ‘their’ Disco. Then EVERYONE on ‘our’ Disco is promoted! (Burnham as Saru’s Exec, most likely). Or, we’re not quite in ‘our’ universe yet…

Martin

I think on After Trek it was said they are back in the Prime Universe- and it was said without a question mark. They haven’t directly lied about something yet – so I think it is Prime, and 9 months later. They could be on a different timeline – but how much you want to confuse things?

Tiger2

Ah, good point CC! You could be right, they are so suspect of the Discovery (according to the preview) because the MU version could’ve been wrecking havoc this entire time.

And its actually not that hard to believe they would side with the Klingons because people forget the Germans allied with the Japanese during WW 2 and they wanted an Aryan pure society (what is harder to believe is why the Japanese would side with them knowing that but welcome to war).

So I can certainly buy it.

Tiger2

Curious Cadet, this is kind of a personal post but I notice you haven’t responded to me in a long time. I only point this out because I responded to your posts last few weeks and was curious to get your response from a few but never got anything. Not a big deal of course but thats when I started to realize I never got any of my responses from you lol. I think we agree about as much as we disagree so I hope I haven’t offended you. But if I have let me know.

Marja

Klingons are fierce warriors. What an asset!

Hawkeye

The Discovery was never ever to transmit the algorithm to defeat the Klingon cloaking device. Without that Starfleet would have had no defense against the technology and the Klingons could do hit and run attacks

Billy Posey

Maybe they didn’t go to the Universe. Who says a swap has to happen? It didn’t happen in DS9.

Dr Beckett

I was about to post exactly the same thing :) In DS9 MU characters seemed to pop in and out on a regular basis, some Prime characters even got to interact with their MU counterparts. It was never a swap in those instances.

Interloper

We saw the Discovery split into two before sporing out of our universe initially, in the half season finale. That would seem to indicate some sort of interaction with mirror Discovery.

Marja

ruh-roh

Victorinox

Maybe MU Discovery did their thing on the PU, running wild and destroying stuff, so that’s why they were received so harshly by Admiral Cromwell. Starfleet thinks Discovery went rogue, when it was actually Mirror Universe discovery.

The Gorn Identity

The MAGA reference was too on the nose and predictable. You could see it coming from a mile away.

VoR

And yet completely relevant. Was not the Cheron reference (directly) on the nose as well?

Marja

Indeed an ironic name for the Emperor to choose. Maybe she thought her ship Charon was the transport across the River Styx for everyone else!

“I’m sailin’ away ….”

Tiger2

Actually Ted Sullivan on After Trek said a big reason why they even wanted to do the MU was to comment on what was happening literally right now in world politics so yes it was on the nose for a reason. You can certainly disagree with his view point on it but the way they described it was they wanted the MU to feel relevant to today’s current times unlike the other MU stories which were more of a ‘what if’ scenario and the Roman’s analogy. Granted not even in the Trump White House has anyone attempted a coup yet….but give it time. ;)

Vulcan Soul

“What is happening literally right now” in the world is that Republicans are committing genocide against the peoples of the planet? This is probably the most vile metaphor in all of Star Trek. What do you call it when you equate a disagreeing, competing political party with a subhuman murdering scum? It is everything these so-called “Liberals” claim to stand against. And that is what makes them hypocrites. And Orwellians.

Victorinox

Where Whites exterminating Blacks back when they showed a Half-Back-Half-White race was exterminating a Half-White-Half-Black in TOS’ “Let that be your last battlefield”?? Of course they weren’t. But everybody understood that as social commentary on segregation and racism in general.

Then how was last night’s metaphor “the most vile”? It was basically par for the course.

Last night’s metaphor showcased the best traditions that have made Star Trek a pillar of our culture

You can deny it all you want, but the fact is that Xenophobia and Nationalism are on the rise globally.

That takes many forms. Whether that is the MAGA/Brexit racist anti-immigrant populism, or the wave of rampant Islamophobia in the West, the ISIS religious xenophobia, the out of control Palestine vs. Israeli xenophobia, the Chinese militarist nationalism, the tribal xenophobia between militias in Africa, and a long etc.

David Alexander Harrison

“Brexit racist anti-immigrant populism”? Oh, you idiot. You ignorant ideologue. You clearly have no idea what the EU is actually like & why a majority of the British electorate voted to get away from it. I hope you’re American; because, if you’re British, your ignorance of the reality of the anti-democratic despotism of the EU & the clear logic of not willingly submitting to it is downright unforgivable and dismissing said logic with national-character-defaming lies about racial bigotry being a prime motivating factor is shameful.

David Alexander Harrison

Lolwat? Absolutely nothing I wrote above implies in any, even vague & indirect, way what you just accused me of having said! Your confirmation bias is almost impressive in a rather disturbing way… Talk about putting words in someone’s mouth; you just published a damn manifesto in my name… 🙄

Victorinox
David Alexander Harrison

Acknowledging that current levels of migration are unsustainable is not bigotry as is being implied, as it has nothing to do with race – or even culture, per se – it’s simply a case of practicality. You can’t cut funding to already strained public services in order to fund immigration & then expect said services not to collapse under the double burden of reduced funding & increased load. If you’re on a lifeboat that’s already at maximum capacity & you let other people get on, they’ll still drown & take you with them when the boat sinks.

TUP

You’re trying to make a nuanced argument about a pretty simply sense among a lot of people. Many Alt-right in the US can say nice words about unsustainable immigration and religious freedom etc but what they really mean is they want more white and less everything else.

Victorinox

David, you are clueless about how the economy works, or you are trying to make a racist argument sound nice.

No government is “funding” immigration. People migrating to a country doesn’t require you to deviate any funding from your current government programs.

In fact, Immigrants add more to the economy than what they take. The tax revenue they generate far surpases the services they could be taking.

“Between 1995 and 2011 the migrants to the UK made a positive contribution of more than £4 billion ($6.4 billion) to Britain, compared with an overall negative contribution of £591 billion for native Britons. Between 2001 and 2011, the net fiscal contribution of recent arrivals from the eastern European countries that have joined the EU since 2004 has amounted to almost £5 billion. Even during the worst years of the financial crisis, in 2007-11, they made a net contribution of almost £2 billion to British public finances. Migrants from other European countries chipped in £8.6 billion”

Source:
https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

In other words, immigrants actually helped fund your services far more than your fellow Brits.

No country anywhere in the world is “at maximum capacity”. That is simply a lie.

#MEGA

Blab about Brexit all you want you tea-sucking twat. Star Trek IS overtly political and if don’t you don’t like the politics the Star Wars boards are that way ~~~~>

Tiger2

Agreed Victor! You bring up great points over Brexit. Sadly some people just want to deny the reality.

And Harrison’s sad and ignorant name calling really should be moderated.

David Alexander Harrison

Define “reality”; all I see is fear of standing on one’s own two feet backed-up with unfounded & unproven scaremongering. I wasn’t “name calling”, I was giving an honest appraisal of the mindset I see demonstrated here.

Tiger2

Un no you WERE name calling. You can disagree without calling someone an idiot. Do you talk like that to everyone who you disagree with in real life? My guess is no, so stop sounding like the very thing you called someone else.

VoR

“why a majority of the British electorate voted to get away from it”

Speaking of shameful…
So, do you want to discuss that misleading bus advert regarding NHS?

David Alexander Harrison

Stop twisting the truth, there was no promise to spend £350M a week on the NHS; that was just an example of one of the many things that could be better funded if we stop wasting money on the protectionist racket in Brussels.

Aitor

You’re English nationalist, I suppose. A guy full of anti EU biases. Beh, what antitrek speech.

David Alexander Harrison

You can “suppose” all you like, you’re still wrong. I’m not anti-European, I don’t long for segregation or separation, I long for liberation and representation. I’m full of anti-EU facts, it’s an anti-democratic rich boys’ club; it’s the kind of thing Kirk would’ve saved some hapless planet from if he discovered such a corrupt & autocratic body ruling over the people.

Marja

DA Harrison
Ignorant ideologue that I appear to you, I think outward and forward, not just to some idealized past.

IDEALS I LEARNED FROM STAR TREK.

David Alexander Harrison

You don’t seem to be thinking at all, you just seem to be toeing a line & playing along with a narrative. Nothing I’ve said is to do with some romanticised notion of “glory” for England or the UK, I do not long for isolation or empire, I’m all for unity, but unity under democracy for all; the lack of that key element is why I’m so anti-EU, and why I’ll continue to be actively opposed to it even if my country casts-off its shackles & regains its freedom. Unless you believe that the Federation is an authoritarian dictatorship where people are told “be happy with what we choose to allow you or you’re going to face social ostracisation, if not prison” then being pro-EU is not being very Trek-minded…

Phil

where was this democracy you speak off when your empire partitioned Ireland? I don’t recall reading about a referendum for this injustice. In many ways the british empire occupation of Ireland was akin to that of cardassia on bajor

David Alexander Harrison

1. How’s the past relevant here; are you saying that because London once imposed its will on other nations, the UK now deserves to live under similar colonial dictatorship from Brussels?

2. While Britain never should’ve annexed Ireland in the first place, the main lack of democracy in the partitioning of Ireland was on the part of the IRA; the majority wanted semi-autonomous extreme devolution, it was the IRA who pushed for complete independence against the popular will & forced the segregation of the Catholic/Protestant population & partition of the island.

TUP

@David – if you cant make a point without childish name calling, you lost already. And should be moderated.

David Alexander Harrison

As I said above, I wasn’t name-calling, I was giving an honest opinion of the attitude I see.

TUP

Actually you called him an idiot.

Phil

that is cheap given the record of the british empire. The real reason for brexit is a hangover from colonialism.

David Alexander Harrison

That doesn’t even make sense. We voted to Leave the EU, not invade & annex it.

Check the Circuit

And the name-calling begins.

Marja

Not to mention that we have a need to say “Black Lives Matter” because apparently to many in authority they don’t.

tronic307

Do Black Lives Matter in the womb?

TUP

Spot on Victor. The poster is trying to twist facts to fit their narrative. The fact he’s taking it as a personal offense and attack on the GOP is absurd.

But..if you subscribe to racist views, if you wish the press was not free. If you wish the FBI served the whims of the President and that he had unlimited power. Then yes, you might be offended by the comparison. ;-)

Gary 8.5

I think they had a smaller commentary in mind, withLorca being analogous toTrump, at least with some of his words.

TUP

@Vulcan – if you think he meant the Republicans are killing a planet then you are too obtuse to discuss the issue sensibly.

Racism. Xenophobia. Attacks on freedom of the press and the judiciary are all things apparent with Trump. And seemingly, familiar to the Terran Empire. It’s a reasonable comparison.

Marja

AGREED TUP!!

Tiger2

LOL calm down. As I said its not a direct correlation obviously, they simply said they wanted to add elements from current events and make their MU feel more contemporary than the others. And they said its what they are seeing on a global level, not just one country or group although a lot of it is clearly aimed at Trump.

albatrosity

The Republican party is the only political party on earth that denies the science and conclusions of climate change. Climate change represents an existential threat to all people of the planet. Therefore, it isn’t too hard to argue that the GOP is committing some form of genocide — by failing to act with all effort to solve humanity’s greatest challenge. At least other parties acknowledge the existence of the danger. But the GOP has been too bought by fossil fuel interests to pretend it even exists. That’s what I have to say.

Tiger2

Which I think is weird when conservatives try to show up here and claim Star Trek is conservative lol. Star Trek has always put science above everything. It actually advocate for the idea of things like NASA which the average conservative deems a waste of money. It believes most of the problems we have today will be solved through science and sees the only way of doing that which is through a united and global partnership to create a better world together. Thats the entire point of Starfleet and how Roddenberry viewed the future. It wasn’t an American organization, it was an Earth one and the ENTIRE reason why so many of the characters came from different countries and races. That was the point, Earth had become globalized to the point people from all over the world were united enough to work together and travel the galaxy after getting themselves out of the ages of war, racism and poverty, all which were in full view of the time. Think how revolutionary that was for the sixties?? Today no one considers this a big deal but it didn’t get anymore liberal than that idea, especially back then. And yet many conservatives, especially in America, are pushing the idea of globalism as an evil. They were actually happy when Tump pulled out of the Paris Agreement. That is the COMPLETE opposite of what Star Trek is about. Star Trek believes the future will only get better with global cooperation and scientific innovation… Read more »

Marja

Bravo Tiger2.
Thank you for expressing well when I would have ranted. I get so dang mad at people who won’t reason and remain willfully ignorant.

Tiger2

Thanks, I just shake my head every time I hear “Well TOS wasn’t really that liberal.” Are these people kidding? Sure, from a 2018 perspective maybe not but you want to bet what people would’ve thought the second Roddenberry put a Russian on that bridge in the middle of the cold war? Can you imagine the crazy name calling he would’ve got if the internet existed that time?

And the thing about conservatism, American conservatism especially, is that it spends its time looking inward and backwards (not in a negative way, OK, sometimes, but I mean a sense of traditionalism). But Star Trek is the complete opposite of that, its about looking outward and forward discovering as many new things and ideas as you can. Its not afraid to leave its safe zone and in fact finds things that challenges its own sensibilities. Thats what exploration is, both inner and outer.

Marja

albatrosity, It is hard to believe anyone with a lick of sense believes global warming is not happening. Yet we see it denounced as a “theory” and “liberal raving” …

Somehow I think Spock would find that “Highly illogical.”

Kirok

So if it was to comment on what’s happening now he is saying that politically we are battling between one evil take on things and another evil take on things. Maybe he’s not that far off….

Marja

Tiger2, As Bill Maher has said, it’s been a slow-motion coup. Look at their actions over the last 30 years and you’ll see what he means.

#MEGA

You mad bro?

CapitanoSMAW

Star Trek is not Star Trek if it cannot practically fourth-wall a social lesson. Star Trek is at its best when it can be overtly preachy.

#MEGA

Subtle like the Cheron’s half black/half white face from Let That Be Your Last Battlefield?

You just don’t like it because it doesn’t conform to YOUR politics

Maybe you should go watch Starship Troopers or something. It’s subtle support of fascism you may find more ideologically palatable

Drew Melbourne

People who think Starship Troopers (the movie) is pro-fascism are maybe missing the point.

Who cares

Likewise anyone who thinks Starship Troopers (the novel) is pro-facist never read it and knows nothing about the author whatsoever.

#MEGA

Oh excuse me. I meant imperialist and militarist. You feel better now fascist sympathizing scum?

Who cares

@#mega

The author of Starship Troopers, Robert Heinlein, also wrote a book named Stranger in a Strange Land. This book was blamed by the US government for starting the 1960s counter-culture movement and was frequently reffered to as “the hippie bible”. Heinlein was not right wing, and anyone who reads his work with a brain in their head can see this. Paul Verhooven, director of the Starship Troopers film, did not read the book. He made a number of entirely incorrect assumptions about the book and made himself look an utter fool to anyone who actually knows the subject.

Vulcan Soul

Deriding an opposing political party as evil murderers IS fascist. Just not the side you think it is!

TUP

It wasnt about the Republican party. It was about Trump and what could happen if a white nationalist who hates freedom of the press, freedom of expression, the separation of the executive and judicial branches etc, were to gain too much power.

No one wants Emperor Trump. At least no one with any sense.

Rotten

Trump hates freedom of expression?

Sure, he may be a nationalist, and he may even be white (though he always looked more orange to me), and he may be carrying some serious chip on his shoulder when it comes to media (though let’s be honest here, media shot first), and he may have done some questionable, jurisdiction-challenging decisions. But, him hating freedom of expression? Where did you pull THAT from?

Whenever I see someone shouting other people down for having an uncomfortable opinion, or even campaigning against them and staging witch-hunts to ruin their careers and businesses, whenever I see someone demanding “safe spaces” and timely trigger warnings, it’s never Trump doing that – it’s always his opponents, the so-called “liberals” (who, when it comes to freedom of speech, are everything but). Silencing and over-shouting any dissenting voices is apparently their specialty; they’ve been doing it for decades now, long before Trump ever decided to run for president, but lately, it’s getting worse and worse every year. For prime examples, you have to look no further than this very website: whenever someone says something that doesn’t mesh well with your warm fuzzy feel-good political opinions, you guys all start shrieking like alerted pod people in the 1970s Invasion of the Body Snatchers. And once again, I never saw Trump, or his supporters, acting like that.

David Alexander Harrison

@Rotten – “Whenever I see someone shouting other people down for having an uncomfortable opinion,…it’s never Trump doing that – it’s always his opponents, the so-called “liberals” (who, when it comes to freedom of speech, are everything but). Silencing and over-shouting any dissenting voices is apparently their specialty;…For prime examples, you have to look no further than this very website: whenever someone says something that doesn’t mesh well with your warm fuzzy feel-good political opinions, you guys all start shrieking like alerted pod people in the 1970s Invasion of the Body Snatchers.” YES! THIS! THANK YOU!

TUP

Please. Trump LOVES all freedoms as long as they are blowing smoke up his rear and in support of him.

He loves freedom of the press for FOX news…except when an anchor strays from his message, then they should be shamed and silenced.

So save us the Trump defense. You cannot defend the indefensible.

And yes, having a different view is great. But if you dropped N bombs all over no one would criticize anyone for shouting you down. Get with the times. Trump supporters love the nuanced white nationalist argument. Gross.

Fred Javelina

A tolerant society tolerates everything except intolerance. If you never saw Trump or his supporters acting like that, you either live on a steady diet of Fox News, shut out all other media, or you’re actively trolling by pretending not to know about the events of the past 2 years. Here is but a sampling. * Trump encouraging his followers to rough up protesters at his rallies, on multiple occasions https://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#96bJ4LJfDiqh * Trump making not-so-subtle calls for violence against NFL protestors, and asking for them to be fired for expressing their opinions. At least one follower of his reportedly called for them to be “executed.” http://journaltimes.com/news/local/reefpoint-brew-house-co-owner-suggests-killing-kneeling-nfl-players/article_743f36e4-87f6-51ff-a64c-07319e2a6a60.html * Pence making a huge show, at taxpayer expense, of walking out of a football game and flying home because there was protesting https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/08/politics/vice-president-mike-pence-nfl-protest/index.html * Employment of literal, actual white supremacists or sympathizers in his staff like Bannon, Gorka, and Miller (who has associations with heil-Trump dude Richard Spencer, and has been photographed making the “wp” white power sign) http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/15/are-there-white-nationalists-white-house/ * … which encouraged multiple white-nationalist groups to march carrying tiki torches in Charlottesville, and one of their members to drive into a crowd of counter-protestors, killing a 32-year-old woman. They really believe Trump is one of them. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-a-white-supremacist-told-me-after-donald-trump-was-elected If you think “dissenting voices are getting shouted down,” it’s pure projection. What is happening is that racism, violence, extremism and – let’s be honest – proto-fascism is being rightly identified and called out for what it is. Sitting back and listening to those people… Read more »

Marja

I’d say murdering children by denying them medical care is pretty evil.

I wasn’t even aware of what politics were as a kid and even at 7 yrs old I thought it was over the top, hit you over the head with the message. Plus, I was more excited to see Frank Gorshin.

Kirok

Respectfully disagree. Trek is at its best when there is a true moral canumdrum. When the Captain makes a decision someone has valid reasons against doing. One example is when Bones did not like Kirk arming one side to maintain balance in A Private Little War. There were very legitimate arguments on both sides and the captain had a very difficult choice.

VoR

Fantastic review for an amazing episode of Star Trek. I cannot wait to binge watch these.

DiscoTrek

Truly Trek

Shadowknight1

It just occurred to me. Lorca missed out on the first two episodes of this season. And in some bizarre form of symmetry, he’s going to miss out on the last two as well. Unless Prime Lorca somehow shows up.

Curious Cadet

@Shadowknight1 — just as Dr. Culbert is in the network for some reason, how do we know what happens to Lorca when he’s literally destroyed by it? That said, Prime Lorca might have been smart enough to evade capture in the MU after the antics of his MU counterpart, and somehow managed to make it onto the Discovery, but it’s hard to imagine.

Captain Danno

Your comment triggered a thought: I wonder if the Nexus from Generations was some sort of mycelial ribbon spun off from the primary network. Might be an interesting way to bring back good ole Captain Kirk!

Guillermo

Would love to see Shatner on DISCO, but I’m not sure his body or his ego would fit into the spore chamber anymore! :)

Marja

Ugh no. Just, no.

TUP

Do you have a current photo of yourself we can critique? And certainly, send us one when you are 85

fansincesixtynine

Word!

Marja

CaptDanno
What a marvelous idea!

Legate Damar

Since Kirk wasn’t forcefully pulled out of the Nexus like Guinan and Soran were, there shouldn’t be an echo of him in their any more.

Disinvited

Legate Damar,

Re: there shouldn’t be an echo

Difficult assertion to prove as Soran was never shown to have an echo. I always thought it odd that if Soran had an echo, why it didn’t put in an appearance to attempt to stop their exit or join in the fight on the planet? Surely, Soran’s echo would be as capable of detecting a disturbance in the Nexus and interpreting what it meant for its existence as Guinan’s?

More Troubles, More Dribbles

I wonder if his name will still appear in the opening credits?

Nebula1701

“one last tiny spore floats around the lab, landing on Tilly’s shoulder. Was this a callback to episode 3 where Stamets was introduced, swiping spores off his shoulder? Or perhaps is this spore the beginning of a whole new forest some day? It is unclear for now.”

I have a big theory about this! Remember they said “Hugh Culber” would be coming back in some way right? My theory is that this is actually him! Tilly will somehow transport that spore back to his body and he will Magically regenerate!

somethoughts

that would be awesome, so sad that he died on the show

Trellium G

I like your theory! That would be awesome if that green spore is Dr. Culber.

Tiger2

Dude at THIS point I will believe anything lol. I was wrong on Lorca being from the MU and I was wrong a Klingon literally transformed his body to look human with memory implants and all so I’m just going to say you’re 100% right and save from being wrong. ;)

Discovery is probably going to only get weirder as time goes on so I can see that happening.

somethoughts

lol

SpiderBat

I think you nailed it.

Ashley

If we’re going with the theory that the spore was a person from the network, perhaps it’s Lorca… They did make a big point of having him “die” by falling into some mycelial energy thingy. Maybe he has some unfinished business to attend to.

Marja

Yeah, and we still don’t know about Prime Lorca either, for sure; as someone said above, he’s smart enough to have evaded capture in the MU. The Empire is a hegemony, but does it rule the entire galaxy? No, that’s why they fight.

LOFC_Ed

That’s a great shout. Love the idea!

Holden

Following that theory, I like the idea of Stamets just causally brushing off several people from his shoulder!

Nebula1701

I find that quite funny and a pure Stamets thing to do!

Marja

Haha, part of why I love Stamets. Great character, layered. Part snobby scientist and part sweet sentiment.

Kirok

Cute theory. And given that this show has gone in some very questionable directions at best I wouldn’t put it past them to do something like that

AdAstraPerAspera

Ted Sullivan said on After Trek that the green spore will be picked up in Season 2 :)

somethoughts

I wish they never killed Georgiou in the 2nd episode of the premier, Landry, the doctor or MU Lorca. We invest our time watching and liking these characters and I must say it is sad to see them go. Right now I am feeling sad to see Lorca die, he did rescue Michael from prison, destroy the coffin Klingon ship and save a federation mining outpost and alien planet. MU Lorca did do some good in the Prime universe.

Tiger2

I hear you but I don’t mind it. This is suppose to be a different version of Star Trek and a more contemporary one where people can actually die.

As much as I love DS9 for example it never made sense they were fighting in a multi-year and yet not a single major character ever died. Yes, Dax was killed but thats only because the actress wanted to leave the show. And it being Star Trek they still found a way to technically bring her back.

And this show is kind of proving the same thing lol. We’ve had four major characters killed, three of them has already shown up again in one form or another. Lorca JUST died and it does sound like Isaacs isn’t coming back next season but it doesn’t mean he is NEVER coming back. But yes it sucks he won’t be there permanently anymore.

somethoughts

There should have been more of a struggle for Michael to say no to Lorca for all he has done for her. In the end Michael had stronger feelings for Gergiou and the Federation principles.

Tiger2

Yeah that bothered me a bit as well and my guess will get discussed more in the coming days that Michael felt so much empathy for the Emperor considering this chick has murdered, what, millions of people probably. This is the same woman who completely murdered her entire command unit 5 minutes after meeting Michael. For me she was obviously just as bad as Lorca was and was going to actually kill Michael unlike Lorca who didn’t want to hurt her.

But that said she was only in that universe because of Lorca and felt directly betrayed by him that he not only risked Discovery’s mission with the war but then nearly getting them all killed in the MU.

Marja

Indeed, Tiger2, what of her devotion to Starfleet principles, with her saving the Emperor. Really?!

I thought Lorca, at least, was a layered character and had learned to respect PU Starfleet somewhat. Any prejudice he may have initially felt towards them built into respect, esp wrt to Saru.

Tiger2

I mean she saved a woman who literally hate her own slaves. I’ll repeat again, she ATE HER OWN SLAVES! How much more twisted and sick could you be? I don’t WANT to see people like this redeemed. I don’t care how bad her childhood was. Some people can simply die knowing they were evil, end of story.

somethoughts

Agreed, MU folks is their nature and nuture to be evil. They need to prevent that damaged relay from happening in the 1st episode to undo all the damage.

Introduce Prime Lorca with Prime Georgio with the Shenzou and Discovery and have Michael join the Discovery via promotion or something and start season 2 like that. Her motherly figure is alive and new adventures on the Discovery.

Marja

somethoughts
I like this idea !

Marja

agreed

MAKE THE PRIME UNIVERSE GREAT AGAIN
FIND PRIME LORCA AND BRING HIM BACK

Ian

DS9 had such a big roster of guest characters though, so the deaths of Ziyal and Kor had some heft to them. Even before the bloodbath of the finale we saw two Weyouns, Gowron and poor Mela kick the bucket.
And frankly, I felt more sadness over Nog’s amputated leg than I did over the allegedly shocking deaths of Landry or suddenly-2D Lorca or Voq if he’s truly been expunged.

Tiger2

Sure you’re right, people did die on DS9 during the Dominion war but certainly none of the heroes, thats what I mean. Innocent people did die but they weren’t the ones leading the charge like the main characters. I’m not saying anyone has to die but what I do like about Discovery is that characters CAN die at least, if they feel the story really calls for it.

That’s always been the thing about Trek before, it was almost like a decree to never kill anyone in the main cast unless an actor wanted out of their contract. Nimoy got to be killed off as Spock when he was ready to leave and they only threw more money at the guy and directing opportunity to get him back. Brent Spiner famously wanted to pull a Harrison Ford and wanted to be killed off in First Contact. He had to wait for Nemesis to do it. And after that movie I’m sure they all wanted to be killed off lol.

TUP

Original Phillipa died a hero while Michael ended up in jail. Maybe we end with this Phillipa in jail and Michael the hero. Though I suspect Phillipa dies again, this time redemption for her as well.

Kirok

I’m not feeling that way at all. Not since they completely undermined the Lorca character by just turning him from layered and fascinating to cliche mustache twirling bad guy.

I’ll repeat what I said in last weeks thread as it was probably too late for many to see. I read but blew off the fan theories that he was MU Lorca. Reasoning that was just too lame. An easy and lazy cop out that would completely undermine a fascinating character. That the show runners were too sharp to do something that dumb. And yet they did. Therefore, his death was not any kind of seminal moment. Ned Starks death played a billion times better than Lorca’s. It’s not similar at all.

TUP

@Kirok – you’re twisting the facts to fit your narrative. Everything we saw of Lorca was still Lorca. It was still fascinating. Because you didnt like the creative twist, doesnt undermine it at all.

Ned was a good guy. Totally different. He wasnt pretending to be someone else. The only comparison between the two is the death of a lead character. You simply cannot compare the two at all.

It would be more akin to Michael being killed suddenly. THAT would compare to Ned, not Lorca.

Marja

I AGREE COMPLETELY, KIROK

I thought it would be too lame myself. I hope they surprise us.

Tiger2

According to Isaac himself Lorca was from the MU before he signed on and they together worked on how to portray the character so they didn’t just turn him that way (although you may not be saying that of course). But I do agree they could’ve layered him a bit better once he was revealed to be from the MU. He came off too villainy for me but I guess that made it easier to give him that death lol.

Kirok

@Tiger, that is all well and good but as a viewer with no insight into him being MU Lorca he came across as a super interesting character. Knowing that doesn’t make the turn less lame. In fact it makes it worse confirming what was likely anyway. That it was the plan from day one.

mwz

Am I the only one who think this all makes perfect sense? MU Lorca attempting to fit into the Prime universe is, of course, much more interesting than MU Lorca just being himself. This is why so many shows and movies play with the whole fish-out-of-water scenario.

Kirok

@mwz
I think you might be misunderstanding why some are bothered that he turned your to be MU Lorca. We aren’t questioning how he part was played as a MU guy in a pu world. We are annoyed that he actually WAS from the Mu at all. It was great that we had a layered mortally ambiguous character. Only to find out later that he was only that way because he was from opposite land. As if the pu is incapable of producing interesting characters. It felt like a cop out.

TUP

No, he was written as a MU character. Had they said, half way through “you know, this is a great character, lets undermine our own story to keep him”, it would not be true to their story.

somethoughts

it would be a excellent theme though, can a evil person change with good nurture?

Marja

Exactly. It dishonored the good scripting and excellent acting of a character who was not so black-and-white clear. It would have been far more interesting to see Lorca decide he liked living in the PU and later have a confrontation with Prime Lorca.

Tiger2

Yes but the other problem was that many fans said that he’s not what a Starfleet captain would do either so its a damn-if-you-do-damn-if-you-don’t.

I get what people are saying and that they have a captain who is more of a rebel and harder edge but this is a guy who let an admiral get captured to keep his ship. Thats a line I don’t think anyone should cross, ever. I mean Kirk certainly broke the rules but he always did it to save lives, not for his own selfish gain.

Tiger2

Look I was the same guy whose been saying I couldn’t believe Voq would become Ash because it would come off ridiculous and lame. And yes after it was revealed to be the case it was still ridiculous and lame. So I get where you are coming from. The difference for me I happen to like the Lorca twist more and (for Star Trek) it comes off less ridiculous. But I also said I was hoping they wouldn’t just turn him into an all and out villain which sadly they did. I was sort of hoping that after spending his time in the PU MAYBE he would want to go back to his universe but to actually change things after seeing what the Federation was and how well people got along in it. I thought that would’ve been a better twist. Have him from the MU and want to take it over but with a different perspective and message. In fact that might have been more interesting from a Prime Directive perspective. Do they get involve in helping him over throw her knowing he’s trying to stop the carnage and say he will do better. Or do they not interfere or even try and stop him? But as we know that wasn’t the case. I think if they went that way with it it would probably appease everyone. You still got this guy who was from another evil universe but one who changed his nature. And its going to be… Read more »

Marja

Tiger2, <iI think if they went that way with it it would probably appease everyone. You still got this guy who was from another evil universe but one who changed his nature.

I had hoped MU Lorca would go back and start a revolution for the people to fight the evil Emperor, not to serve his own Terran supremacist [and selfish] ends. Damn!

Tiger2

Yes, I think that would’ve made a difference. I’m sure they at least discussed it but maybe they just liked the idea Lorca was pure evil and thats who he always was no matter how well he hid it just like Gul Dukat was always evil even if he came off polite and compromising but you can’t hide their ultimate true nature.

And again, maybe that would’ve came off better as well if we had more than one episode to deal with it.

somethoughts

yes, should have made mu lorca the leader of the rebels and make it harder for michael to say no to mu lorca’s offer to join him. It does feel 1 dimensional that he just wanted to overthrow the emperor and take georgio’s place. They could have made mu lorca michaels love interest too since he rescued her from prison, that would have been difficult also to say no to a lover and a friend/captain

TUP

You invested your time in a character over two episodes? Thats hardly an investment.

somethoughts

Georgio and Michael was written at having over 7 years of history together. So even if it was a few episodes, their relationship spans greater than 2 episodes. I was also referring to Lorca who has been in the majority of season 1.

TUP

Yu talked about investing YOUR time in watching. I liked the character too but I wasnt heartbroken when she was killed in episode 2.

somethoughts

I was sad to see her die as it affected Michael deeply.

That moment changed everything for Michael. I was expecting both to make it back and was surprised and saddened by her death. I value my time be it 1hr or more 😁

Shane

I swear if I hear one more hand phaser charge…

Tiger2

LOL I thought it was just me. They were getting out of control with it. I think the sounds are cool but yeah it was a lot this episode.

Marja

As someone above said, no stealth phasers fer shure

0dkinWood

This convoluted nonsense is exactly what I expected. I stand by my years-long assertion that what Trek needs to restore surprise, excitement, and good storytelling is an anthology series of standalone episodes where life and death is a surprise, where casual viewers can join at any time, and where guest stars and writers can do their best work without committing to a 13 week serial co-written by a giant committee.

Holden

It’s occasionally convoluted . . . but it’s far from nonsense! Your own point about how much thought went into this season reveals as much.

Trellium G

As Shatner said about the demise of Enterprise, it was “old hat”. Stand alone episodes or alien of the week stories, are old fashioned.

Marja

Mudd’s story was kind of stand alone, but it was funny and a good one.

Ian

It remains the season’s highlight.

Tiger2

But you’re thinking about Star Trek in the 60s and 80s. Look around, every sci fi show is like this today for a reason, because the audience is very different today. Serialize story telling keeps people watching and binging. For example, you tell me the top 5 favorite shows you currently watch and I bet most of them are serials because the BEST shows are now serials.

That said I think what Fuller originally wanted was a season long story line and then every new season it would be a different ship, crew and time period and they would do a separate story line. I like that idea too but can see where the financial burdens would happen.

It sounds like this show will get different story lines every season though but yeah clearly they can’t be completely separate since so much of what happened in this season will have to go into the next one just to keep all the characters straight.

Olaf

Fair points. But what makes the audience so different today? When did it change, why, and who started it?

I for one like both, but serialized storystelling more in the form of HIMYM, where the show is serialized, but you can still watch and enjoy individual episodes, when you stumble upon them on traditional TV.

As I do not have the time to binge watch anything. Having a job, wife and kids makes that a little hard, so I very much enjoy the “fresh” (for today’s TV/Streaming landscape) take of a great, funny (ok, almost) standalone episode-per-week like The Orville is doing…

Denny C

Audiences didn’t change, how they were presented content changed and audiences take shows as they’re presented, it just has to click with an audience regardless of the format. Though there may be connecting threads throughout a season, most dramas on television still consist of standalone episodes.

Marja

Denny C,
I think once audiences realized a novel format, versus a stand-alone bunch of “short story” episodes, allowed for better storytelling. And one can always have a stand-alone episode among them, like Mudd’s.

Tiger2

Actually I disagree Denny C, audiences DID change, but mostly because the technology did too. I work on a college campus and I see basically mostly teenagers all day. None of them have television and majority watch TV on their phones and computers. This is the same argument I had every time there was an article about All Access here but people, especially under a certain age view TV very differently today and because of that its why TV shows are in this format more and more. I remember the when TNG was running and I would have to run home from school or wherever I was to make sure to catch the episode and if I didn’t see it I would have to wait to watch it in a rerun. But it wasn’t the end of the world since I didn’t have to watch the last 9 episodes to understand what happen in the next one if I skipped 10. But that problem just doesn’t exist anymore as you can watch whatever program you want anytime, anywhere. But that has also, oddly enough, made it easier for people to watch less of it or just watch it later. There is no need to watch it right now! And thats the difference between a serial show and a standalone one because serial shows are a must see viewing experience because now everyone is on the internet talking about it together as we are now, putting the clues together, discussing what… Read more »

Denny C

I’m not talking about viewing habits or delivery of content, I’m talking about how stories are told and delivered to viewers by showrunners. Viewers ultimately have no control over how a story is told. If showrunners decide to pull back from serialized storytelling most people won’t care as long as they are entertained. Some shows lend themselves to the format than others. One format over another doesn’t necessarily translate into higher or lower ratings.

And a show doesn’t have to be serialized for people to binge watch an entire season. On Netflix people are just as likely to binge watch Fuller House as they are to binge watch Stranger Things.

In the end viewers just want a show that entertains.

Tiger2

OK, but I was talking specifically about the audience itself. Of course they have no control of how the story is told to them but after awhile everyone gets adapted to something and it becomes the norm. A century ago someone decided movies should be around 2 hours length and while movies today can be a bit longer thats how everyone generally define a film, around 2 hours, give or take 30 minutes.

But I get what you’re saying and no it doesn’t have to be serialize to binge watch. I’m only suggesting it motivates people to do it more. If you watch TNG for example, chances are you will watch it the entire series because you just like the show. But you don’t really have to because the show is so episodic and its easy to just watch whatever you want from it. But if you decide to watch DS9 chances are you will stay invested until the last episode because the Dominion war arc just becomes a life on its own.

But sure I don’t disagree as long as a show is good in any format people will watch obviously. I’m only saying serialize shows invest audiences in a way the other doesn’t and it keeps them on the hook longer. But same time it can certainly back fire if the story line they are telling isn’t compelling enough or just go on too long. So its a fine line.

Vulcan Soul

Serialization is a fad, nothing more. It is funny how they always make out these things to be about “progress” and “evolution”, kind of calling everyone who disagrees with it obsolete Luddites. But then again we already had Serials in the 1930s and look how many changes came about since then! The next change of technology will no doubt change series again, maybe throw serialization under the bus, who knows. The only thing that is clear is that the same people who today look down on everyone who is against serialization will look down on everyone who is for it! Such is the nature of conformists.

Denny C

And then came soap operas. Serialization may eventually follow the model of the telenovella which present limited story arcs/ This leaves room for multiple episode arcs as well as standalone episodes.

TUP

There are smaller arcs within the broader story of Discovery. In fact, we’ve had nothing about the war in a few episodes and no L’Rell or Ash this episode either.

We dealt with Saru/Michael dynamics in that one episode as well.

Holden

Well, we can trace serialization back to the soap operas of the 1950s, so no it’s not a “fad.” It’s appeared periodically for decades. And it’s always had its appeal for many. The difference now is with DVDs and streaming services (and the informational resources of the internet) it’s easier for audiences to stay immersed in it. It’s not going anywhere. The important question is what kinds of serial narratives will work best and for whom. It’s a major mistake to paint all the different kinds of serials out there with the same broad brush.

Tiger2

I don’t think its a fad Vulcan Soul. Its happening both in TV and even films now like never before. Now everyone is doing shared universes, which might be a fad considering how hard they are to do as SO many movie studios are finding out, but they are popular for a reason and thats because audiences are WAY more sophisticated today. They want deeper story lines and frankly due to the internet it helps even more. I mean look at all of us. We are all here discussing and analyzing the last episode like a presidential speech. There are countless internet sites and ‘wikis’ to help us keep track of it all. We can go to multiple fan sites like this one to post about it. You can go on Youtube and post videos about theories and reviews. There has been an entire internet culture that has sprung up over it because of how we consume media today. The internet has given us ease of not only watching all this stuff but then how we talk about it afterwards. Studios and networks have picked up on all of that and why serials are so popular because it gets us all talking and watching in a way we never did several decades ago. Now all that said it doesn’t mean episodic TV will ever be gone. There will always be a big portion of the population who just watch TV as it was originally meant to be seen, as a… Read more »

Denny C

This is true to a point. Audiences are used to serialized programming but serialized programming doesn’t repeat well and if you jump into a show too late in its run it’s virtually impossible to follow. If you look at that top shows in syndication it’s rare that you’ll find dramas among the top 10 off net syndicated shows and for streaming services once people have binged through a season they tend not to revisit them.

I suspect that for science fiction and fantasy we’ll eventually begin to see shorter, multi-episode story arcs which are easier for audiences to absorb and for new viewers to jump into.

Vulcan Soul

Aka “Enterprise Season 4” (12 years ago)

Denny C

Yup. And it worked.

Holden

My hope is that once they’ve used season one to hook an audience and establish the main characters, they’ll ease off the serialized gas pedal just a little and take more time to experiment with different kinds of smaller stories (not that they can’t still have a few major arcs season to season, but just that getting to the next major plot point isn’t the primary focus of the individual narrative every week). But I doubt it will happen.

Denny C

A serialized drama needs a core and I’m not entirely sure if they’ve defined exactly what this show is about. Deep Space 9 didn’t figure it out until season 3 but when it clicked it clicked.

Holden

I’m optimistic that the glimpse we got of the Disco crew near the end of this episode, out of Lorca’s shadow, might be that core emerging.

TUP

Keep in mind this creative team inherited an idea from a guy who left the series. And even then, his idea was part of a broader idea he wasnt allowed to do.

I like the arc this season. But Im willing to say next season will truly be owned by this creative team.

Marja

Maybe three-episode arcs like “Mirror.” Though there was a lot that led up to it.

I have a feeling they may have a running “B” story but the “A” story will take place in shorter arcs. Season 1 has definitely hooked me, though

I REALLY HATE THAT WE MAY NOT SEE ANY MORE OF JASON ISAACS

and I hope they bring him back. He’s worth it, no matter how much they have to pay him. Fantastic actor. And who’s to say Prime Lorca can’t be equally layered. He could be the Captain Jellico of Discovery; great strategist, not so well-liked, but practical and getting business done.

somethoughts

Yes, I miss Lorca already. Heart breaking someone who helped Discovery/Federation and crew so much turned out to be PU imposter. Hoping PU Lorca is similair to MU Lorca due to PTSD being stuck in MU for years.

Marja

Somethoughts
I agree wholeheartedly.

somethoughts

Maybe they discover PU Lorca is being held in Rura Pente, rescue him, slowly integrate him back into starfleet.

Tiger2

I agree Holden. I always said I saw Discovery doing what Enterprise did in season 3: have a long season arc but still manage to tell completely separate stories in that arc. Granted Enterprise had a lot more episodes so in many ways they had no choice but I think (or hope) that Discovery can find a balance in time where its not just about the bigger story all the time. Everyone seems to acknowledge The Sanest Man was the only ‘standalone’ episode so far and yet it also seems to be one of the more popular ones because it could completely work as a standalone (although yes you have to known something about what happened with Mudd) but still fit the overall season. And it was just a fun episode like you find in TNG or Voyager.

They can certainly do more of those in future seasons. They can still go off and find new planets and aliens like Enterprise did when it was hunting down the Xindi. Again they just have to find a balance and because they included two major story arcs this season it was much harder to do.

Ian

The difference with Enterprise is that even though they weren’t great, we at least had 2 seasons’ worth of stories featuring these characters to be able to glean some development out of them as they get put through a war. It instills a noticeable change on Archer, T’Pol and Trip at the very least. Discovery is both breakneck and delivering a debut season. We don’t know most of these characters very well (which is alarming for a show with the smallest cast of them all), and are allowed less than two hours to get to know two of them at their pre-war baselines before all hell breaks loose and never lets up. Since the mini-reboot of episode 3, we were stuck trying to reconcile a captain who felt off but maybe wasn’t because other characters (Hey Landry! Hey prisoners! Hey Black Badges!) were already kinda shady. He turns into a mustache-twirling bizarro villain who was in love with Burnham and got atomized, so that’s SUPER compelling stuff to build on from now on. Stamets has been a plot device too, so his characterization has never settled down, depending on how mean/crazy/nice/nerdy he has to be in any given episode. Burnham has her fits and starts, but is dangerously close to just being defined by her steadfastness and guilt, and nothing else. Tyler/Voq could become an interesting tortured human condition character in future, but we have to see where that story is going. His point right now is to literally be… Read more »

Marja

The Mudd episode also worked because of Rainn Wilson’s over-the-top performance, the Gormagander, Burnham and Tyler working together to stymie the dangerous con man, Stamets being all mellowed out but carrying an urgent message …
… and Jason Isaacs’ Lorca … great comic timing.

Tiger2

But that’s not as true as before. As we get more and more streaming sites LIKE All Access its becoming easier and easier now to jump in whenever you want. The problem is that its not as easy if you only watch it on TV which is true. But thats the point, thats the ENTIRE reason All Access even exists because they know more and more people are tuning to the internet. They know some people don’t want to try and keep up with an entire season when they have to watch every episode to even understand what is going on and wait to binge watch it later. Netflix worked their way around this by simply posting the entire season of a show on the same day so that’s never a problem for anyone and of course its there forever. Netflix understood the culture is just changing. And yes why we are getting more and more smaller seasons even on network TV as opposed to the 20+ episodes we use to get. Now I agree serialized programming doesn’t repeat well. I love 24 for example but I can’t remember a time I decided to just watch one episode of it because there is no point lol. You watch it all or you don’t watch it. But thats also becoming less important because syndication itself is becoming less important which is why TV was made in episodic form for so long. Networks are relying less on them and even reruns for… Read more »

Holden

Also, I agree shows built for binge watching aren’t well suited for repeat viewings. But there have been many great binge-able shows (Breaking Bad, Deadwood, Mad Men) that have held up in repeated viewings because they took this time telling deeper character stories that didn’t in retrospect feel only like filler between the plot twists and turns.

Denny C

All great examples. Discovery needs to slow down a bit.

DiscoTrek

they are all serialized and had multiple seasons to tell their story. We’ve had 13 shows!!! OMG

Holden

OMG! I’m not criticising Disco. I’m talking about the challenges of serialized storytelling in general. Relax.

DiscoTrek

I apologize. I didn’t originally read it that way

Holden

No worries, DiscoTrek. My comment was posted in the context of others’ concerns about DSC’s serial narrative, and I have in the past expressed some reservations. So, in retrospect, I understand why you all might have misinterpreted my post as a blanket criticism of a show that I still very much enjoy and have high hopes for. To be honest, the end of the episode got me really excited for season two (the Stamets sequence, as the Disco crew finally *feeling* like a crew) . . . though I would like to move on from the Klingon War about as much as I was ready to move on from the MU.

TUP

@Holden – I dont understand. You’re suggesting Discovery is too full of plot twists and turns and yet saying its filler.

I remember Deadwood fondly. And it took time to appreciate. It wasnt a winner from day one. Neither was Breaking Bad or Mad Men, two series in which I watched the first episode and havent gone back to yet.

Keep in mind, those shows didnt have 50 years of franchise to worry about either. So if they misstepped at all, you wouldnt notice it as far as the bigger picture goes.

Lost is a good example of a series that gripped you from the first second and actually got WORSE the more mythology it created.

Discovery feels like a long film to me. I dont see any filler that sometimes exists in other series where they have to get to 60 minutes every week. it seems wholly bingable.

In fact, people here have complained that it is TOO binge worthy and hard to watch weekly.

Tiger2

Well LOST got worse for the simple reason they had WAY too episodes to fill and it wasn’t planned out from the beginning. And the mythology lasted the entire show, they didn’t ‘reset’ and went to a different story line every year (different plot lines though) because show premise was the entire story.

I think a lot of writers learned from LOST what to do and NOT to do. First thing is have a plan from day one which we know Discovery does and WHY its working out generally well and even then its not perfect. But its also why its only 15 episodes a season. But Fuller actually only wanted 10 a season because he knew if you want to do these big story lines but make it twisty as possible and all make sense is you do less not more. But yes I’m happy they decided to go more episodes, not just to have more Star Trek lol but because the ‘filler’ episodes people complained happen on the other shows are a lot of the episodes I loved and I hope we get at least a few of them a season.

TUP

@Tiger – yes, I agree. I was appalled when I saw an interview with one of the writers who basically laughed about the fact they had no idea where they were going and introduced mysteries with no thought to what they were.

Had I seen that BEFORE I watched, I likely wouldn’t have watched. The height of writer arrogance.

I do however, like the finale of Lost and feel the ending was suitably sentimental and fitting.

Denny C

Mad Men and Breaking Bad actually were winners from day one. Neither show was trying to get its footing when it launched. You should really go back and take a look. Great shows.

Tiger2

I finally got into the Breaking Bad hype a few months after it ended and binged watched the whole thing on Netflix and then rewatched it all again last year when AMC reran the show. I agree, it is great. I think it gets a bit over hyped but its definitely a great show. I never watched Mad Men but I know its great as well. I do plan to watch it one day though but thats the beauty of the internet, its not going anywhere and I know I can watch it all in a week lol. I just have to find the time to do it first.

Holden

Nope, TUP, I’m not making any broad assumptions about Disco specifically. I’ve been consistent in saying that I’m waiting to see how things play out (this season, and others) before judging the show. Anyone who’s paid attention to my posts has noted that despite some reservations I’ve always stayed positive about the future (and have in this thread too despite my issues with the Lorca endgame). I was making a comment more generally about the nature of serial storytelling.

Holden

But, yes, on a separate note: Deadwood and Mad Men had critically beloved premieres. . . And Breaking Bad’s pilot is generally cited as one of the best ever. Look it up.

TUP

Im sure that’s all true. I honestly didnt find Breaking Bad’s premiere very interesting. I watched it because of the hype and after felt “well, it probably gets better”. That was my honest opinion.

I think Sopranos is the greatest show of all time and the difference between its pilot and subsequent episodes is quite apparent. And its premiere WAS excellent. But it still got better.

Trellium G

Seeing that the war is lost (or almost lost) when Discovery gets back to the PU, I hope the Admiral begins to realize that Michael’s attempted actions at the Battle of the Binary stars would have been the correct course to take against the Klingons and reinstates her commission as an officer.

somethoughts

Correct course or not, there is a chain of command and Michael violated that chain. Mutiny charge is pretty serious. Discovery is about flawed characters and how they grow and flourish and redeem. Sadly there was no redemption for MU Lorca.

Martin

While Kirk didn’t nerve pinch Admiral Morrow in ST3, he and the crew did commit mutiny, and for much more selfish reasons than Burnham did…. and without hesitation. Yet once they had again saved Earth, they were punished with a new starship.

TUP

Well Kirk was demoted. Which was a backhanded gesture. But he could still have been given a ship to command.

The whole idea of that crew serving on a ship was a bit odd anyway since they all had been promoted much higher. You had three Captains and 4 commanders I believe. Spock went from Captain to first officer. Chekov went from first officer to Conn.

We had to accept it for the sake of the films.

Plus, they DID save every living thing on earth!

Trellium G

Well, Burnham and the Disco crew saved all the multiverses from destruction. That deserves some kind of acknowledgement. :)

somethoughts

very true, God of multiverses will reward Michael with her Prime Mom back via reset

TUP

I can see Starfleet reinstatng Burnham but not to Captain. or, the story might go that she’s offered the Captaincy and declines in favour of Saru, bringing us back round to the “you take everything from me” line and he deciding not to.

or she does end up Captain and Saru is rightly miffed.

Martin

Yep – Trek 5 was 3 Captains, 4 Commanders. Just a lot of positions on the main shift filled by very high level officers with lots of years in service. The payroll budget on the Enterprise must have been pretty out of balance with the rest of the fleet.
Also – one of the Captains in Trek 5 was only about 5 years old.

Tiger2

I don’t disagree but she’s clearly not going back to jail which you would expect especially after a fake captain got her busted out. I mean we ALL know she is eventually going to get her commission back, its just a matter of when and how. It may not be next season but I wouldn’t bet against it either.

Tiger2

My only guess is they will at least recommission her to first officer by the end of the season and she will probably be Saru’s number one. That’s what I’m feeling now that there is an open position and there is no one else to fill the FO role, at least from what I can tell. But according to producers we haven’t even been introduced to the chief medical officer or engineer so who knows lol.

somethoughts

Watch them bring in Tom Hanks as the CMO and kill him off when Tilly turns into a Tardigrade.

Marja

Lol whut

Trellium G

I like that they are keeping me surprised. It wouldn’t be much fun if everything was 100% predictable. I think Saru will request her as his number one.

Denny C

Something tells me that none of it will matter. I think their timeline is going to be reset after they attempt to correct it.

Tiger2

Maybe and if so that would be a shame.

Trek in a Cafe

I hope we get to see that MU Georgio also had a telescope. I also want her to take a look at MU Lorca’s menagerie and collection of stuff. What does all that mean to her?

somethoughts

I think MU Georgio had a telescope with phasers and big guns attached to it.

Trek in a Cafe

And we never got to see the Defiant! HA! Well played! :)

Marja

Indeed

Agonizer

Unanswered is the biggest question: Who will take care of Lorca’s Tribble?

Marja

Didn’t he dissect it [ugh]?

CapitanoSMAW

YAY PREACHY STAR TREK!!! I do love when preachy Trek rears its beautiful head. This episode featuring lessons in sustainable energy, global climate change analogies, warnings against nationalistically centered fascistic tendencies in the “Make the Terran Empire Glorious Again” [MTEGA, I guess?] venue, and lessons in the value of coming together to solve problems.

Vulcan Soul

Telling one part of the audience that the other (supposed) part of the audience is the enemy is not just dumb from a business point of view, it is the text book definition of “divisive”. Real Star Trek did exactly the opposite – it built bridges to people we disagree with and don’t understand – like putting a Russian on the bridge or the Star Trek VI reconciliation with the Klingons.

TUP

@Vulcan – maybe, if the part of the audience they were criticizing was the majority or even half.

I mean, would we parse words about racism because we dont want to offend the racists? No. Its okay to criticize where criticism is deserved.

If you’re a Trump fan and feeling offended, well, you have bigger problems than a Star Trek TV show.

DiscoTrek

TUP that’s a little unfair. Wouldn’t expect it from you from past posts. Why does any particular group of free thinkers need to be offended? They could’ve easily got the point across much more subtely instead of insinuating that a large group of people in our society are evil.

TUP

Making fun of Trump’s mantra which essentially is either meant to be or has been coopted to be racist and xenophobic is absolutely in keeping with the spirit of Star Trek.

The Terran empire is a great stand in for a world that embraces the ideals of Trump. Its not about the political issues of taxes and what not.

Im a conservative. Trump isnt. He’s a mean old racist. He’s tried to silence the free media. He’s tried to silence the FBI and DOJ, obstruct legal investigations.

I think its a spot on portrayal of what would happen if Trump was Emperor.

I dont feel offended as a Conservative at all. Because its true.

Marja

LOL yeah

Myrth

Completely agree. I have been subscribing and watching and finding the show mostly entertaining with some complaints. However when a show, its show runners and it’s leads all unabashedly straight out call me evil for my political affiliation, I happily knowledge their full right to do so as I knowledge that it is my full right to cancel my subscription and accept the fact that Star Trek apparently not for me any more. I wish it well as it has been a part of my life since I was very little, but I can’t in good faith hand over money to people, or even a whole production who would call me out as Nazi like for holding to conservative ideals.

Marja

I don’t think they straight out called you evil or a Nazi, Myrth. I think they called certain values unsustainable. But if you interpret it as such, so be it.

I’m sure CBS will cry all the way to the bank.

Myrth

It is certainly not about making them cry monetarily. Obviously one subscription will not cause financial ruin. However, as an industry continually produces content with an ever increasingly blatant political bent there will eventually be a threshold where well meaning people will, like myself, just say “not for me”. They will stop overlooking the caricatures and plot lines that call out and mock their beliefs and just walk away. So no I am not trying to “hurt CBS” with the loss of my subscription, I just think it is sad that the show has gone so far left of center that to openly cast the main villain as a thinly veiled version of the sitting POTUS.

Marja

I invite you to re-watch TOS.

It informed my Progressive values. But since you don’t seem to think much of Progressives, I guess you found your own messages from TOS.

2omega

In TOS, the progress was about EVERYBODY moving “above and beyond”.
Today’s “progress”, on the other hand, is about pushing EVERYBODY down to the lowest common denominator. It has nothing to do with actual progress; no real moving forward is involved. It’s more like walking in circles just for the sake of being in motion. Sadly, just because you’re not standing still, it doesn’t mean you are moving *forward*.

For example, take a look at one of the staples of the contemporary “progressive” movement: unisex bathrooms. How does that actually benefit any statistically relevant part of the populace? How are we, as the humankind, benefitting from converting to unisex bathrooms? How did it ever became an actual real-life topic? Why are we concerned with bathrooms when we could be talking about colonizing the Moon and sending people to Mars?

Certain silly women back in the 1960s burned their brasiers because they thought that women’s lingerie is a tool of male domination. Later, when they finally realized that the point of a brasier is not to subjugate a woman, but to prevent gravity from painfully tugging at their teats with every step they make, they unceremoniously bought new ones and decided to never talk about it again. All in all, the whole thing was a dead end, a “progress in circles”. Today, fifty years later, we’re busy burning our bathrooms – and the damn Moon colony is still nowhere in sight. Maybe we should reevaluate our priorities?

Fred Javelina

Did you know that the bathroom IN YOUR HOUSE is a unisex bathroom? Shock! Horror!

It seems like you completely missed the point of progress.

Progress doesn’t push everyone down, we lift up those who were previously marginalized. However, “When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”

When they call it “political correctness,” it’s really code for “I don’t want to have to care about other people’s feelings,” or even “I think my feelings are more important than anyone else’s, and I want to continue to make sexist jokes and oppress people who are different from me.”

People who think like that know, at some level, that they have benefitted from a system that was tilted in their favour, and if the playing field were truly equal, they wouldn’t have been able to get where they are today.

Your comments about bra-burning belong back in the 1960s. Women can wear – or not wear – whatever they want. And, if you choose to step outside the prison of your mind, so can you.

Let me put it this way: If we’re gonna have a Moon colony, it damn well isn’t going to be populated solely by Straight White Men, so we’d best learn how to get along. (Ask the ISS astronauts how they do it.)

Marja

Fred, you have said it so well. I wish I’d read yours before I wrote mine :^}

Fred Javelina

Thanks! You made some excellent points that I missed!

Marja

2omega …about pushing EVERYBODY down to the lowest common denominator.

Really? You think early childhood education is pushing everyone down to the lowest common denominator? You think healthcare for all is [ditto]? Or do you sincerely believe that only the rich and well-off deserve the spoils? That only heterosexuals, whites, and men deserve consideration? That those who are denied job opportunities deserve to suffer bc they can’t “get a job!” I really hope that’s not what you believe. But you might. IDK.

As for unisex bathrooms. Y’know, as a woman, I really appreciate them. Because at concerts and other crowded venues, I often had to jump to the men’s room line because [guess what] they have a lot more receptacles. Bathrooms should be closed-stall for all. For 40 years I have stood in line while men just went in and out of their bathrooms.

END BATHROOM DISCRIMINATION! So there.

Check the Circuit

“Certain silly women…?” Three words that speak volumes.

Marja

YES

Picard’s Patty

By far, the best episode of the series. I wasn’t expecting much, but I absolutely LOVED THAT! Saru has now become my favourite character! Great fight with Michelle Yeoh doing what Michelle Yeoh is genius at.

I still hate the substandard CGI, but Discovery upped its game tonight. A rewatch will definitely happen this week!

Marja

I wish we had gotten to see more of her martial arts. Sword fighting could have been better IMHO.

DIGINON

That’s probably a victim of being on a TV show schedule. Such fight sequences require a lot of time. You need to choreograph them, and most importantly, you need to train your actors to do the moves without actually hurting each other.

Tiger2

Whats funny is Issacs said the very same thing in an interview. He said that fight scene would normally take weeks in a film to shoot but because its TV they have to make due. I’m always shocked just how much action happen in shows like this considering the short time you have to choreograph and train for it.

DIGINON

I agree that many of the ship shots are underwhelming. Some time back one of the producers said in an interview that they under-budgeted the VFX while planning the series. Discovery definitely has a lot of VFX and I could imagine that they were asking for too much given the resources they had. Hopefully, this will improve in season 2.

Amazing episode. Possibly the best of the series so far. Glad they’re out of the despotic and sadistic Mirror Universe. Now I can relax as it’s only the Klingons to deal with… And they’re basically just stupid thugs.

Marja

Em, DO, they haven’t been set up that way. They have a spiritual dimension and L’Rell is anything but stupid. She’s a formidable adversary.

Fred Javelina

Hab SoSlI’ Quch!

Chatterjee

13 episodes in and Burnham still doesn’t feel like an authentic character – she is merely a thread by which to hang gimmicky plot devices. Oh well, the show is nice to look at. But that writers’ room needs an overhaul.

Garak Stole My Scissors

We have to sacrifice character building in favor of giving screen time to the Emperor’s magic flying wall-attaching phaser.

Kirok

I agree. The writers of this show hit exactly one home run out of 13 episodes. And the “twists” have either been seen weeks in advance, completely undermined characters or situations
Or were just lame which reilsted in the destruction of dramatic tension. It just feels like the writers thought they were being clever doing what has already bred done before. And it felt forced at that.

They need new writers. Period.

TUP

@Kirok – I dont think you understand what your saying. Please explain.

The twists being seen weeks in advance is just stupid. Many people had conflicting theories here about the twists. So to say you knew, please. You didnt know.

DiscoTrek

lol your nemesis is back.

TUP

@Disco – I know, right? With the same complaints as before….evil CBS is making him pay for a TV show when all his other TV shows are free and how it should be on Netflix cause its free when is not but he already has it but hates it anyway because streaming technology isnt real and he can use his friends account anyway. Like we get it!

I disliked Orville but I dont go into the Orville threads to constantly whine about the show. Because I dislike it enough that I stopped watching it.

Victorinox

So did you know MU Georgiou was going to end up in the PU?

Of course you didn’t. You are, as usual, just whining.

Kirok

I did not anticipate MU Georgiou being kidnapped back to the PU. I didn’t foresee the doctor getting his neck broken either. But those things weren’t lengthy mysteries either.

Good grief. Exaggerate much? Come on… You want to discuss it then let’s discuss it. No need to cry and make stuff up because someone didn’t like some something you do.

TUP

So you complaint now is “I saw all the twists coming except the ones I didnt?” Puhleeze

Chatterjee

Let’s be honest, folks. The show can be fun at times and has some handsome production design – but this is comic book schlock and doesn’t come close to living up to the best of Star Trek. Just imagine what a Michael Piller would say about this Justice League writing.

The Weekend Slice

I didn’t have time to carefully go through the below and make it 100% cohesive. But I do feel it gets my points across. And the below is 100% my opinion and not meant to negate anyone else’s opinions, it’s not an attack, maybe just a counterargument. Feel free to ignore it. Let’s be honest here. Piller was around for both Generations, Insurrection. Sure, Piller didn’t write Generations, but Insurrection was underdeveloped (though I quite like it). Let’s not bring up some of the episodes of Trek that were purely poorly written. Let’s remember that Ronald D. Moore was applauded for Battlestar Galactica but he did write Generations (which needed a lot more time to be fully developed) and which had a decent idea that was in the end poorly handled. There have been 700+ hours of Trek on TV and 13 movies, not all of it was good. For me, Discovery has been better than expected from a season 1 of a show. Better than TNG Season 1, better than Enterprise Season 1. I think the writing has been damn good on this season. The characters work very well and have been well defined (from my pov). One just needs to pay attention to the things that are going on and catch all the elements. The biggest negative for the show is the fact that due to the short number of episodes some developments (like Saru finding himself, his confidence and inner strength) have been “condensed” into moments rather… Read more »

Kirok

I understand what you are saying. The franchise does need to adapt and change. But it also needs to be good. It also needs to maintain some originality. That is where
DSC is lacking. Especially in the originality part.

TUP

@Kirok – I like when the chief complaints are Discovery isnt original enough and that its also not enough like Star Trek. Which is it? lol

People looking for reasons to whine using words they dont understand.

Marja

Haha yeah

TOS was original in its time, like “Psycho.” Imitators came out of the woodwork!

DiscoTrek

Kirok You harbor an opinion that not many have. How can you proclaim it to the masses when 99% of those that watch it Like or Love it? What do you expect to gain from bitching about it? Do you think the angel of Gene Roddenberry will appear to you and praise your 1960s Trekkie opinion?

Kirok

Disco, how do you figure? There are a lot of people here who post far worse opinions than I have had. Seems you are being amazingly disingenuous to say that 99% like or love it. What is your source on that? It certainly wasn’t concluded based on the opinions of posters here.

This is meant for opinions. It’s not only for people who love it. People are allowed to criticize believe it or not. Do you think you will get into Trek heaven by defending all things Trek to everyone?

DiscoTrek

If 10 million people watch it or whatever it is, and you assuming only die hard fans would watch it when they don’t like it (which seems a little crazy to me), my assumption is that a majority of those die hards come on the fan sites to spew their superior knowledge. Point being, why would anyone watch a show that they criticize on a weekly basis? I think 99% is very plausible.

Kirok

Disco, no one outside of cbs knows how many watch the show. Unless you have some link for some info on that somewhere?
I never assumed ONLY die hard fans would watch it. I was speaking in my behalf when I said I was jumping through cbs’ hoops to watch only because I am a die hard fan. There seem to be plenty who criticize the show on a weekly basis. There was one guy who cried and moaned about how bad Orville was every week yet kept watching. And there are plenty who subscribed to aa why may not think highly of how the show is playing out but are finishing out the season because of curiosity or because they paid their fees and feel compelled to finish out or a myriad of reasons. I think your guesstimate of 99% approval ratings are not reasonable by any means whatsoever. I think you’d be hard pressed to find ANYTHING in the media with a rating that high.

TUP

Your problem Kirok, is you complain about the same things and wont accept anyone showing you otherwise.

If you complained that the uniforms were green and kept going on and on about how green they are and how it makes no sense and then someone showed you that they were not green, you’d ignore it and keep complaining about how green they are.

That’s why people are annoyed by you.

ST DISCO FAN

“This is a show about a character looking to rebuild herself, a crew beginning to form, a ship finding its purpose and perhaps the Federation growing TOWARDS what we know it to be from the other shows. Think about the opening credits where everything is broken down to its core elements and put together. De-construct and rebuild.”

You are spot on with this bit of analysis.

Marja

DISCOVERY is not just the ship :^)
GREAT ANALYSIS WEEKEND SLICE!

Tiger2

The show probably can rely on a few less crazy twists but it is the TV age we live in now. I do like Discovery but yes I just hope its not all ramped up craziness, ‘OMG’ twists and conflict for the next several seasons (assuming it gets that far). I mean I would love in time we get episodes like The Visitor, The Inner Light, Similitude, Tapestry, City on the Edge of Forever, Measure of a Man, Far Beyond the Stars, Duet, etc. Episodes that Trek does best that can slow down and just reflect on the characters and their situation that brings out a lot of thoughtful moments.

But its very early. I am enjoying what I’m seeing though but I would love it if and when the show can get to this kind of story telling as well and not just a constant barrage of twisty plots.

The Weekend Slice

Agreed. This is why I consider the short number of episodes to be a detriment. They don’t have the time to slow down for one episode and do a standalone story. Maybe it will happen in season 2 and I hope so. I mean, Inner Light was a Picard centric, very wonderful episode, but it was a standalone story and SADLY Discovery has not had the space in this season for such an episode outside of the Mudd taking over the ship episode, but even that one was meant to show Stamets and his connection to the network and Burnham being quite loyal to the ship, the captain, etc. It felt standalone, but it really was a smaller cog in the machine that is the season long arc. We have to be content with the snippets placed throughout the episodes for each character. Saru’s development was shown in snippets, and while it was handled well and while the Pahvo episode gave him quite a bit of screentime we haven’t gone back to see how those events changed him. We haven’t had enough time with Culber in my view, nor with the bridge crew. The Klingon war arc was held back as well by lack of time. I feel that had there been 20 episodes vs 15 there would have been time for the storytelling to breathe a bit and be more…detailed for lack of a better word. Discovery is painting with broad strokes and small details in a way and… Read more »

Holden

Re: the Mudd episode. Yeah it was a relative standalone, but even then it lacked a profound philosophical core like the best of those old standalones (ie “Measure of a Man”). It was just little more than a fun, if familiar, time loop narrative (Groundhog Day on steroids) with a couple nice character moments.

Marja

It did however get us better acquainted with the characters and gave us insights into Stamets/Culber and teams starting to work together.

TUP

Many series’ do limited seasons and are fine. Remember that Discovery was actually extended by two episodes.

Marja

I have a feeling the shortness of the season has to do with budget. Thar be a lot of money up on that screen, mate.

DiscoTrek

It is Very common for shows that are made for streaming to be limited. It enables them to make higher quality episodes.

TUP

Keep in mind they increased the order.

Denny C

Unfortunately a serialized drama such as this doesn’t lend itself to the types of episodes you mention. There are no individual stories to tell, there’s an overall story arc to push over the finish line.

Vulcan Soul

Remind me what was good about “serialized drama” again? So far everything seems to be working against it – not just no profound messages (I don’t consider equating your political enemy with warmongers and killers profound – it is vile), but lso characters we are supposed to get more invested in “thanks to serialization” get killed off multiple times this season already, and no less than two captains!

Holden

There’s a lot of great qualities to serialized narratives, but I think the problem you might be rightly touching on is that it’s harder to do with the sci fi genre because it’s easy to be tempted into a ridiculously escalating series of twists and turns when at the end of the day you are not bound to any substantive sense of realism. You can literally do anything! For me, now that I’m thinking about it, the most rewarding serial narratives have been grounded more in some kind of everyday or historical realism. Maybe that’s why canon matters in Trek? It keeps stories somewhat grounded.

Denny C

The captain has become the new red shirt.

Holden

LOL, Denny. Given how much they stressed that it would be a bottom up show not focused on the captain as lead I could see this happening. Maybe the hook at the end of season one will be the introduction of the new guest star Captain! Whose a major Trekkie looking for work these days?

Denny C

Now we know why Lorca was reluctant to sit in the captain’s chair!

TUP

I guess you dont watch Game of Thrones either…lol

Holden

Yeah, maybe fantasy shows have the same issue for me. To each her/his own.

TUP

Look at it the other way. In TNG, for example, there was never any real danger because we knew they werent killing anyone (Yar being the exception and her death was terrible).

When they did kill characters (Kirk, Data) we all knew it.

If you’re telling a story and you have the freedom to let the story take you to wherever you need to go, including killing characters, isnt that the preference?

I didnt read the books Game of Thrones is based on so I went in cold…so the deaths are shocking. And in some ways, disappointing, but the quality of the show allows me to get over it. Because every death serves a purpose.

Tiger2

Well thats all of Trek shows, from TOS through Enterprise. Yeah no one ever died and when they did we all knew it was going to happen. Actually I didn’t know Data was going to die because I kept myself spoiled free so I was actually shocked. But I knew Spiner wanted to stop playing him for awhile. But yes everyone from Leonard Nimoy to Terry Ferrell we all knew were dying because it was telegraphed ahead of time the actors were leaving their series.

That’s one of the more interesting things about Discovery that characters can die. Sure we know certain people will never probably go but the fact that so many can is different in a good way. And yes its Star Trek so even when you kill them off you know you can always bring them back in some way which majority of the actor’s character who were killed off always ended up coming back again at some point, minus a few like Shatner and Spiner (although he did play Data’s creator on Enterprise).

Disinvited

Tiger2,

Re: shocked

I’d wait 500 years before even considering being shocked. It took that long for Data to be revived from decapitation deactivation.

I mean you can’t keep good software down; even the dead IMAGE satellite took 12 or so years to revive on its own. In two separate TNG episodes it was established that Data’s Android neural net was capable of storing and running multiple separate distinct personalities without causing Data to be irrecoverable. B9’s only has to store two so the possibility of recovering Data from him as either a mobile hologram or downloaded into a replicated B9 android body doesn’t seem that remote. And don’t forget his father had Data store all the personality engrams of all the colonists Lore killed — something which, we can assume, he did not burden B9.

DataMat

Michael Piller would be over 70 he was alive today. He was a man from a different generation, so of course he wouldn’t write like writers ‘write’ today. He wouldn’t ‘get’ television today. Its the same as my Granddad doesn’t understand how to use a smartphone, but by the same token, I cannot build a house, my Granddad CAN! And many from his generation can too, many from my own cannot.

Denny C

You should probably run the bios of some of the people working in television today. They’re not quite as old as your granddad but they’re nowhere near as young as you.

Tiger2

You do realize most of the Trek writers from the TNG era that started when Michael Piller did still write for TV today? ANd one of them, Joe Menosky, who started just one year after Piller started on TNG is writing and producing Discovery? And that they have people even older than Piller would be like Nic Meyer who has been writing Trek even longer although in his case it sounds like he’s basically not involved on the show on any real level anymore since you never hear anything from him and he hasn’t been credited with anything from the show.

Marja

DataMat, My dad was a “Renaissance man” too. He designed and built a house for my Grandma, shot and developed his own photos (including color, in the 1970s), was a ham radio operator, taught engineering drawing, was a musician, boatbuilder and painter.

Wish I had half the talent and practical abilities he did!

SelorKiith

What you and so many others forget is… this is Season 1… and only “half” a season at that compared to ‘Ye Olde Trek’.

Remember how absolutely terrible TNGs first 2 Seasons were? The Costumes?
How cringeworty most of DS9s first 3 Seasons are most of the time?
Voyager?

Give this show the time it deserves… you expect them to go from 0-100 right from the beginning, this is not possible… they need to find their own stride, their own way.
The Crew must grow together, Cast and Writers alike.

So far DSC does a phenomenal job at that and I would even say it’s the best first Season of all Trek Series.

Don’t get me wrong, they aren’t perfect, certainly not.
There are problems and they need to be adressed in a civil manner.
But that is a process, you can’t just flip a switch and have the best Series ever, moreso given that your Idea of “The Best Series” differes from mine and my Idea differs from the next and so on.

And what you call “The Best of Star Trek” is without question anything from S3-S7 of any previous Series…
So yeah, there’s that :)

Denny C

True but we’ve already had several iterations of this show in a single season that started with the pilot, jumped into the Klingon War, took a turn into the Mirror Universe and then jumped into an alternate timeline where the Klingons won the war. A lot of storytelling to reach an endgame which seems to shift every three or four episodes.

SelorKiith

Did you know how TNG would eventually turn out? DS9? Just after 10-15 Episodes?
I’d call you a damn clairevoyant if you say yes.

Again, this is the first Season… the first 15 Episodes.
At least let them get off the ground before you shoot them down :)
Let them find their stride, their own way.

Kirok

There is a huge difference between this show and other Trek shows. Most of us are paying specifically for the right to even see it. In that sense, the show should be judged more like a movie than your typical TV show. Do movie franchises tell viewers to give it two or three movies until they get it right? No. Viewers demand it be “right” from the the moment it starts. And for good reason. I suppose there might be some who would have bought the service even without Trek. But most bought it only for Trek and a good number of them are dumping it when the season ends.
This show should not be judged as if it were an over the air show or even on a service that you buy that has a ton more good options like cable or even a larger more renowned streaming service.

DiscoTrek

then judge it after 2 more episodes when the “movie” is over.

Victorinox

OMG, this is so much nonsense. No, this show is not a movie. No, this show doesn’t have to be perfect from the start (no TV show is). No, this show isn’t supposed to tie everything by the end of each episode given its serialized nature. No, this show isn’t supposed to tie everything y the end of each season (given that it was though from the beginning to be a multi-season show). No, just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean the show isn’t amazing and thoroughly enjoyable.

I suggest you go watch one of those options you mention amd quit the whining.

Kirok

@Disco Trek. Fair enough. It will have final judgement after the season is complete. It still has a slight chance to turn things around. However, many movies do start promising and then go downhill before they end. Precious few pull out of that tail spin. But to be fair, it ought to be judged upon completion, yes. @Victorinox Please read again. I never said the show was a movie. I said that given it’s similarities to paying for a movie it ought to be judged as one would judge a moive. There is a difference. I never said it needed to be perfect from the start. But it does need to good by the time it wraps up. Just like any other movie. I also never made the argument that every episode needed to be stand alone. We all know this is a 15 episode story arc. No room for standalones in such a format. I never said it had to tie everything up at the end of the season, either. It was the shows own producers who originally claimed that all continuity issues would be addressed by the end of the season. Then they kicked that can down the road by saying it would be addressed the following one. Actually, because I have been disappointed by it does indeed mean that it has not been amazing or thoughourly enjoyable. Remember, this does not mean that someone else might like it. Do not make the misake of turning one person’s… Read more »

TUP

You pay for every show you watch unless you’re using rabbit ears which you arent. The cable channels you watch arent free. We’ve been down this road many times.

TUP

@kirok – we get it. Your ONE talking point is how much you hate CBSAS and streaming blah blah blah. It got so tiresome you even changed your handle to escape your own silly narrative.

Its a TV show. It can be judged like any TV show. And guess what, its good. You’re trying to create a false narrative that Discovery isnt very good and that CBS is asking you to buy another season in case it gets better. They are not.

If you dont like it, dont pay for it. But dont complain that CBS is making your pay for something.

You pay for ALL your shows and films. Yes, you want to order it on DVD from Netflix. Thats YoUR preference. Its not mine or most people since Netflix rental is dying (and you’ve incorrectly claimed its propping up Netflix which is untrue).

By the way, when it comes to films not getting it right immediately, I direct you to a small feature you might have heard of called Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Seems they made some corrections for the sequel.

SelorKiith

See…
That’s a problem with the distributor… not the show :)

I would say you wouldn’t One-Star a product on Amazon because your local Post Office effed up your Package, would you?
Or Downvote a Game because you didn’t read the Requirements and your PC can’t handle it?

I admit, I’m in a better position than you because I can watch it on Netflix but that doesn’t change anything about the Show itself.
The Show stays the same… no matter if it is on Netflix, which I pay for and almost exclusively use to watch Trek Shows because I am too lazy to change DVDs or if you have to watch it on CBSAA.

The Mantastic One

100% agree with this.

As first seasons of Trek shows go, this is arguably the best (or a close second to TOS).

Marja

Bingo.

Victorinox

Considering Michael Piller wrote Insurrection, perhaps the worst ST movie ever made, then I couldn’t care less what he thought about this project.

TUP

@Victor – Michael Piller was interfered with on the writing of Insurrection. There is a great Ebook about it. He had to deal with Berman, Stewart and Spiner and had to write a film THEY wanted, not the story HE wanted.

Stewart insisted he didnt want a darker action film like First Contact

Victorinox

I am aware of that, I just meant that nobody produces a perfect product. Not Piller, not even Roddenberry.

I bought Piller’s book (not sure if it is the same you refer to), and met his lovely wife. She sang a few songs at Star Trek Las Vegas together with Chase Masterson. Can’t say she sings great lol (perhaps it is my fault, I really don’t care for country music), but the book is interesting, even if it still looks a bit unfinished. To be fair, he sadly passed before finishing the book, so we should be thankful that the book was released at all. Check it out. It is now at a discount (I bought it when it came out at $95, now the price is $70).
https://www.michaelpiller.net/product-page/book

Tiger2

Jesus I read his book for free online a year ago lol. But its a great read for both Trek fans and future script writers on how complex and intricate writing a film can be when so many hands are in the pot. Its sad writers are blamed for bad films when a lot of times their ideas are constantly being meddled with by the studio and director. Piller had a great idea for a Trek film and then everyone slowly chopped it away to the water down sanitized version we got. So sure you have to blame Piller on some level but he was far from the main culprit.

djm

I’m convinced the green spore is Lorca. They made a point of showing him falling into the mycelial network. Looks like Lorca might be taking up residence in Tilly’s body.

Marja

Oh gosh, I hope not.
I like seeing Isaacs as Lorca.
And losing sweet Syllie Tilly would be a shame …her naivete is so fun!

We all have assumed that Lorca was destroyed by the mycelium. Yet what if the corrupted mycelium has absorbed him instead? Could we possibly have a returning villain similar to Gary Mitchell? Most likely, I am completely wrong but I can’t shake the feeling this isn’t the last we have seen of Lorca.

Ashley

I’m a bit confused by some things… Did mirror Lorca beam to the prime universe before the war? Like, was the USS Buran on a pre-war mission near the same ion storm and beaming Lorca up while the ISS Buran was being attacked by the ISS Charon? If that’s the case, then since everyone presumed mirror Lorca escaped and they were hunting him down, wouldn’t prime Lorca have escaped from the ISS Buran? Even mirror Lorca said he was hoping to find a better version of himself there, so I think he was expecting them to have caught prime Lorca. If all of this is correct, then wouldn’t prime Lorca still be on the run in the mirror universe? My other point of confusion… It’s assumed that the ISS Discovery ended up in the prime universe, due to a transference. But this would mean A) they had a spore drive, and B) they keyed in the coordinates to the prime universe just like Lorca keyed in the coordinates to the mirror universe. Even the vfx used showed a ‘doubling’ effect suggesting a transference. So why would the ISS Discovery have a spore drive if Stamets was doing his research on the ISS Charon? Maybe mirror Straal was pursuing similar but different research aboard the Discovery, more in-line with the prime universe research? And even so, how and why would they simultaneously jump to the prime universe? I kind of wonder if maybe prime Lorca hid out aboard the Discovery, used… Read more »

Olaf

Other than that VFX shot, I don’t get where all that talk about the ISS Discovery being in the prime universe comes from. Like you said, it would be far-fetched, if not downright illogical. And there was no indication of it (other than said doubling VFX effect, which could simply be a hint to the jump to the MU, as far as I’m concerned)…

J.S.

“Other than that VFX shot, I don’t get where all that talk about the ISS Discovery being in the prime universe comes from. Like you said, it would be far-fetched, if not downright illogical. And there was no indication of it”

Sure there was. In episode 10.

Saru: “The rebel logs show their ships being attacked by a vessel with a warp signature matching our Discovery, but with a quantum signature matching this universe. […] That signature seems to have vanished at the same coordinates where we popped in. […] It is possible we SWITCHED PLACES WITH THEIR DISCOVERY.”

And I agree, it IS far-fetched and downright illogical!

Olaf

Oh thanks, I totally forgot about that! Fortunately, Saru only said it was *possible* ;-)

Tiger2

Yes but obviously that did happen because where exactly is the other Discovery then? They completely disappeared from the other universe literally the second PU Discovery showed up. My guess is that’s partly WHY the Klingons got the advantage in the war because the other Discovery could be helping them to win and maybe shared their spore technology to give them the upper advantage.

Tiger2: “My guess is that’s partly WHY the Klingons got the advantage in the war because the other Discovery could be helping them to win and maybe shared their spore technology to give them the upper advantage.”

My thoughts exactly.

Marja

O.M.G.
I think Klingons and MU folk would be good allies until their mutual prejudices came to the fore. They’re equally fierce in battle. But they’d hate each other on a racial basis. OH NOES!!!
THE TWO FORCES MUST BE STOPPED!

Tiger2

I pointed this out somewhere else but think of the Japanese aligning with the Germans and Italians in WW2. In every respect they should’ve hated each other lol but yet they formed an alliance to take down the rest and protect each other.

My guess is, if I’m right, its the same deal. They are aligning with each other out of a shared goal, but not a shared purpose.

AdAstraPerAspera

Holy crap. Now THAT was a first class episode!

Jaku

THAT CRYS… TIIIIIME TRAVEL SOLUTION

Marja

i KNOW, right?

Sigmund Padol

Dear friends, my English is not my first language (Polish). I must needs say, I am halfway through watch Discovery. This is really nice Star Trek, a joy to watch, and very, very excite! The only thing I have my problem with is Discovery seem more modern than original Star Trek, but take place 10 year before? No matter…

I am going back now to watch final half of ‘Past Is Prologue’, but I have at my side small glass of coconut rum, just beware it help if I become over-excite!

I like this website a lot. I come often.

Best wishes to you my friends…

TUP

@Sigmund – Welcome. I love Discovery too. I am not bothered by the visual updates because it would not make sense to look like the 1960s.

Soren

Trying to be positive it was good to see what looked the actual start of the show that most trekkies had wanted with Saru talking about their maiden voyage. Ted Sullivan and Jason Isaacs in After Trek said similiar things about how they’ll now operate like an actual bonded bridge crew with Lorca gone. Prime Georgiou and Burnham had the best dynamic in my mind to recreate some of Trek’s old heart. She’s now back, but I imagine as its the mirror one, we’ll just end up with more needless darkness being shoved down our troats under the misaprihension that nothing can be adult or sophisticated unless it’s full of that. My guess is her evil skills with be used in S2 to allow the Federation to win the war against the evil Klingons. Probably done for Burnhan as she still loves her.

Still far too many brainless phaser and fist fights being being slurged all over place however. Think of all the quality character moments and writing that could have been put into this dead time instead.

Vulcan Soul

Totally share your sentiment about the ultraviolence (if not your idealism about the show’s future). There is this old saying about “Fool me once”. How many times have they rebooted this show now, and killed off characters we started caring for? Where are the role models in this that want you to BUILD something positive and NOT FIGHT? This show only feels allegiance (or should I say addiction?) to one thing, and that is “The Next Twist” (TM). It is willing to subordinate everything to that – characters, plot, meaning. We have already seen the next twist on the horizon and they will need another one to explain how this huge event was never part of canon of the four later shows. It is a bit naive to believe in these producers talking about “this time it’s the Star Trek we know it”. After this I doubt it will ever be back. They have been exposed as what they are – the #LiarsInChief

Kirok

I’m still waiting for them to show us how this series is in canon with TOS. They keep telling us they are going to do it. This season has two episodes left to do it. However, don’t they already kick that can to season 2?

Victorinox

Everything shown on this series that is canon. Just because the ship isn’t made with gel buttons, plastic office chairs, and plywood decks doesn’t mean it isn’t canon.

Count me as one of those extremely thankful that we are seeing the production efforts that we are seeing. Everything is spectacular.

Kirok

For the record, updating the production is to be expected. It doesn’t look like it will flow into what we saw before but that is not the only thing that takes this show out of canon with TOS.

We are clearly watching two very different shows

TUP

lol yes, one made in the 60’s and one made in 2017. No issue with Canon at this point. None.

DiscoTrek

Kirok I would love for you to list any of your blessed Canon that has been changed

Kirok

“Blessed Canon”? You go too far. The canon issues were discussed in great detail in September. Go back to those threads if you want to talk about it again.

But given the snarky tone of your post I seriously doubt you are truly interested in a discussion of canonical I consistancies. If I’m wrong I’ll concede and apologize and we can have a discussion.

Marja

Kirok
We had a long discussion just the other day with a lady named Isabella. She was very disappointed that the canon wasn’t being respected, nor the promises the showrunners made.

Others pointed out to her that canon from Enterprise forward had indeed been respected.

Kirok

Marja I’m just not seeing it. The canon issues are so huge that the show makes a ton more sense setting it in the KU. This has been mentioned before so I’d rather not rehash old discussions.

DiscoTrek

There is nothing in “canon” that can’t be explained to this point. Anything regarding Discovery and it’s crew is explained away by the fact that no one ever mentioned it in on TOS or later or it wasn’t mentioned for “some” reason. It’s not like they blew up Enterprise and killed Spock. That would change canon.

Victorinox

Canon issues discussed in September?? So you complained about canon BEFORE the season showed that all those so called “canon issues” where neatly tied back and turned out to not be issues at all?

“Lorca doesn’t feel Starfleet” -he wasn’t.
“How come Spock never mentioned Burnham?” -same reason he never mentioned Sybok.
“The Discovery looks newer than the Enterprise, but it takes place 10 years before TOS” – The Constitution class is 20 years old by the time we see it in TOS. That means the Discovery is 10 years newer, explaining its more advanced technology (holograms, spore drive etc.)
“How come Burnham fired first in the pilot!?” -In TOS Spock arrived at the same conclusion, fire first, but was overruled by Kirk.
Etc
Etc
Etc

Everything has been properly explained. There are no canon inconsistencies at this point. Any that could arise can still be retconed before the end of the show, so you at this point you are just whining without reason.

TUP

Kirok has been complaining for two years under different names about Discovery. Pay him no mind. He cant list any canon issues so what does that tell us?

Kirok

Talk about “whining without reason”. You are only moaning because someone doesn’t like something as much as you do.

Don’t be absurd. The issues were discussed WHILE the show was airing all September long. Not the few days before. That is a very poor assumption you made from something I think was actually rather obvious. None of the things you mentioned are the things that people seemed to have issues with. The fact is that very little has been explained and the show runners first told us everything would be settled by the end of the season. Then they backtracked and claimed it would be dealt with in season 2. If everything was working out fine why would the issue even be addressed by those in the know?

Come on, you’ve got to do better than that.

DiscoTrek

Kirok you have yet to tell us where they have strayed from canon

Kirok

Disco, You really want to rehash months old discussions? If you really want to know go look at threads from soon after the show aired. There are plenty there. How about the fact that the show runners themselves first said the i consistancies will be explained away before the season ends? How about them backtracking on that and saying they will be addressed in season 2? This isn’t some fan brining it up. It’s the people who actually make the show. But let’s ignore all that. Let’s just cry about something else when most readers know it’s more about having an issue with someone who does not like something as much as you do.

DiscoTrek

you still haven’t mentioned anything because you can’t. Everything is explainable within Canon.

Tiger2

Guys I don’t get the gang up on Kiork over this and this bizarre argument Discovery is completely canon when thats just.not.true lol. I mean these boards sometimes feel schizophrenic. CLEARLY there are canon violations. We know this because the producers of the show has admitted this themselves and have said that those violations will be explained. TM posted an article on it most you read and commented on: trekmovie.com/2017/10/09/producer-promises-star-trek-discovery-will-address-apparent-deviations-from-canon/ So I mean yeah there ARE canon violations, not just how it looks but the fact so much of the technology is much more advanced. The fact the uniforms looks NOTHING like the uniforms in TOS. Am I the one crazy? This was during the Cage era, we ALREADY know they should be wearing the same uniforms as those guys. Their not, so yes thats a canon violation, right? Now is it a huge deal, no but its STILL A VIOLATION just the same. Most people here thought the Klingons were also out of canon and said so. The difference was they thought there would be an in-universe explanation why they looked so different. And of course we learned there wasn’t one. Now people are just shrugging over the fact they just look different. Now of course we know Klingons have been changed many times so its not the end of the world. But if you’re arguing you expected there would be an actual explanation to explain the difference then yes you are in a round about way admitting they… Read more »

Kirok

@Tiger.

I was done with Disco at this point because it was becoming more and more clear that it really wasn’t about opinions of canon violations anyway. I was also too lazy to go back and dig up old threads where it was mentioned. It just wasn’t worth the effort. Someone had to be the better man here and just stop adding fuel to his fire.

And to be honest, the canon violations by themselves don’t really bother me too much. It’s just a show and my original comment was just a small sidebar wondering when the show was going to explain them away like the producers said they would.

Thanks for that, anyway.

TUP

What in the blue heck are you even talking about?

You’d prefer a series where they all sit around singing songs and blowing up balloons? Its a TV show. In 2017/18.

Also, if you think characters and story telling are secondary to twists, you havent been watching. The twists come from the story telling. They affect us because of the characters.

You dont get it. So dont watch. No big loss.

Soren

“You’d prefer a series where they all sit around singing songs and blowing up balloons? Its a TV show. In 2017/18.”

What a ridiculous thing to say. TNG felt very little like this show and was winning peabody awards. Horror, misery and violence do not have to be inserted into everything in order to make it current or relevant.

TUP

@Soren _ I made a ridiculous comparison to express my amusement at the absurd whining of the show as too dark.

Its ONE season. We had an episode where they were literally singing, dancing, drinking, making out etc.

PEB

By the time of TNG, this was not the “frontier” where space was a very dangerous place. My god, we were set on a ship with FAMILIES. Parents and children! Just think about that. Think about all of the dangerous situations that Kirk and that Enterprise got itself into. Of course it’s going to feel different. For all of the violence that you’re claiming is out of place, I can point back to an original series episodes or film that had the same type of violent tendencies. People who act like Trek is only supposed to be about exploring and non-violence are the fans who feel that TNG is the only Trek or the “most Trek” version of the franchise.

Marja

agreed

Marja

Well, that’s true enough but the awards were given in the 1980s, yes?

And unlike DISC TNG sucked for the first two years.

Victorinox

Peabody awards in Season 1? Really? Do you even remember Season 1?

Remember the episode “Conspiracy”? With all the gore of a horror B-movie, especially when they literally blew up the bad guy and left a churned body without a head??
comment image

How about “Code of Honor”… so bad that Jonathan Frakes referred to the episode as a “racist piece of $#1t”

Or “The Naked Now” and Tasha nailing an android thereby making Data the world’s most expensive vibrator?

“11001001” and Minuet? God that was awful…

“Skin of Evil”? The most boring story and death in the history of the franchise.

Or the rest of the season? After a supposedly loved member of the crew dies and literally nobody gives a damn ever again until Yesterday’s Enterprise?

Come on people… get a grip.

DiscoTrek

VS, you have obviously become obsessed with this show in an unhealthy way. You find nothing redeeming about it but you watch and you watch and you bitch and you bitch. Very few people have anywhere close to your opinion but you continue to spew it out every week. Have your opinion, that’s fine. State your opinion. You have. Please stop repeating it over and over week after week. It’s tiresome.

Marja

DT, As I always say, Skip on Down. Yes VS is pretty predictable, but it’s fine for VS to repeat hirself, ad infinitum, with no psychological speculation from the likes of us. ;^)

There was a time when I had to skip on down past the flame wars. Happily those days are over, and I hope not to see any more flamewars..

Kirok

Oh the bait for flame wars are still being put out there. It’s just that no one is biting anymore. Which possibly irritates the baiter to no end.

David Alexander Harrison

The big question is: Is Mirror Lorca really dead, or is he off somewhere else in the multiverse pimpin’ it up with Johann Shmidt? 😏

Aitor

Johann Schmidt aka red skull?

Marja

WTF?

Fabio

I felt proud to be a trekkie. Great episode, great review, too.

I liked Landry. Not sure the hate for her.

Marja

For me it was her advocating for treating the tardigrade as a danger/threat even after Burnham showed it could be treated differently. I’d have liked to see more depth from the character; I don’t think she was written to be anything but Burnham’s opposite.

Kirok

I had actually forgotten who that woman was! I kinda sorta recognized her but could not place her. Those are the things that long breaks do on shows with less larger casts. Especially ones that are less than memorable.

It was Maria who reminded me who she was. Now I recall. She was the idiot security leader who I was stunned had not died due to her own foolishness before the tartigrade thing.

Marja

Yup.
And Rekha Sharma is a good actress, so the character must have been written badly. Shame innit.

TUP

If Landry was on the Buron, how was Prime Landry around at all?

Victorinox

Good question, I was confused by Ted Sullivan’s After Trek answer. I think she was 1st Officer in the MU Buran (with an a, like the Soviet space shuttle, not Buron), but not in the PU Buran (which in theory was lost with all hands, including PU Lorca).

TUP

I really liked her. Great actress. Gorgeous too. Would have loved to see her remain and be a thorn in the side to Saru and Michael as the more morally “open” security officer.

DiscoTrek

She looked great on After Trek

Marja

TUP you mean LESS open don’t you?

TUP

Yes. Well, open to morally questionable choices.

TUP

That would make sense. So Lorca recruited her. Its been said he recruited everyone for Discovery…so that makes sense. he gambled that Prime Landry would be open to some shades of grey morality (and likely seduced her too).

Marja

Victorinox, “in theory lost with all hands, including PU Lorca.”
I hope not.
Because MU Lorca was beaming somewhere at the time, I can only assume PU Lorca was doing the same at the same time … so where is he now?

Marja

ikr?

Vulcan Soul

So now they have done it twice: first they declared “the other side” the enemy by openly saying they are the same as the blood-thirsty, war-starting Klingons. And now the Evil Terran Empire is sledgehammered into the next metaphor for people who disagree with (neo)liberalism. Aside from the conundrum how isolationists are declared warmongers in a rather Orwellian twisting of the truth, is this how much you people really hate a different faction of your own society? Is this your idea of inclusiveness and diversity, to declare a rather large part of the audience the enemy? (As a complete outsider I am allowed to ask) But let me add: this ultraviolent peak of Discovery (so far) with its 40 minutes of merciless killings, screaming and clear enjoyment of the most vile weapons there are (even 2 minutes of uplifting ending cannot redeem that, before the inevitable Even Bigger Twist (TM) of course) betrays the complete hypocrisy of the people it claims to represent. It is rather clear to me who cherishes the violence and crudeness of this so-called “modern television”, and who does not. Just like Lorca, a character we wanted to believe and trust in, Discovery, this most divisive Trek of all times, may well be irredeemable at this point. We have been duped. I don’t know how long I can still keep watching this travesty holding out hope that it will some day turn into something what Star Trek IS (as this is not), but if I don’t… Read more »

Arathorn

Wow. I don’t know if you are suffering from paranoia, or if you’re just desperate to get up on that soapbox. Either way – chill out. If you are a Trekkie, you should know by now that the franchise has always leaned liberal. At times, in a very heavy-handed fashion. Why now are you choosing this moment to freak out about something that has been a part of the franchise since the beginning? Oh wait I know: People like you look for reasons to be offended. It’s wired into your personality.

Vulcan Soul

You should tell that to William Shatner because as a staunch Republican he never seemed to have a problem with the material the shows were presenting (nor did I).

So the answer is of course: not we have changed and have become corrupted, but Star Trek (and “liberalism”). When you call your potential audience the enemy and equate them with killers (and not I did, but the producers! Just listen), you know who is the fascist and who is not.

Arathorn

I’m not sure what sort of philosophical mathematics you are doing here, but they just don’t add up. Again, I think you’re being a bit paranoid. But everyone is entitled to their opinion. Good luck out there in the world.

TUP

Is Shatner a staunch Republican? He’s Canadian and does not vote in the US, which would be an odd thing for a “staunch” anything. He also doesnt vote in Canadian elections. But the “right” in Canada is different than the Trump right in the US. In fact the right wing US is different than Trump.

Get over it.

Tiger2

Vulcan Soul, maybe its just time to admit the show is not for you and to move on. I’m not saying you should stop watching but reading some of your insane posts its clear you are never going to enjoy it. And this rant just kind of proves you seem to have deeper issues with it that will never be resolved.

Denny C

Um, Shatner is not an American Citizen, so…

Curious Cadet

@Vulcan Soul — see ya! Don’t let the door hit you in the ass …

TUP

If you’re trying to make some argument that the anti-Trump metaphors are wrong, I hate to break it to you, you’re on the wrong side of history.

lolwut

Brought to you by the guy who thinks serialization is a “fad”

Victorinox

“Save your country”… How a person speaks is quite telling isn’t?

Save from what exactly? Immigrants? Refugees? Hispanics? Blacks? Muslims?

Perhaps the fact that you feel targeted by the show affords you the chance to reflect on your views of the country (who doesn’t need saving from anybody) and see if there is room there for improvement.

Or, you could go back to Breitbart news and keep enjoying some of that sweet sweet populist xenophobic nationalism…

Robo

Exactly! It’s not like these groups bring far higher rates of crime, disease, terrorism, poverty, and reliance on social programs paid for overwhelmingly by white people (who reap the benefits the least per capita). I’m so sick of these ignorant people that believe liberals only want more minorities because they’ll be dependant on social welfare and thus continue to vote overwhelmingly Democrat. You’d swear that the DNC has managed to turn tax collection into the world’s largest money laundering operation.

Marja

Please look up the definition of neoliberalism.

Arathorn

#bringbacklorca

Marja

Yes!

TUP

Disappointed in the losses (Lorca and Landry, both of whom are great actors). But I always feel that way when a great show kills a strong character. We’ll get over it.

Again, it raises the question of who’s the Captain in season 2. They could cast a new Captain, which gives them some freedom to create new relationships/conflict etc.

I said no one on the current crew could be Captain…but Saru is changing my mind a bit. But it would seem to be too soon. And its WAY too soon to have Michael go from prisoner to Captain.

DiscoTrek

Spot on TUP. Saru was really good this episode. Actually tough. Realistically Burnham should not be anywhere near the chair in season 2. Issacs is a big loss. We have no alpha male left in the cast. That hole needs to be filled

Vulcan Soul

“We have no alpha male left in the cast”. Now looking at the extremism of the producers they have revealed in their background talks and rather crude metaphors as presented in this very episode, isn’t that exactly what they are aiming for?

DiscoTrek

VS I hope not, but at this point I can’t say

TUP

It gives them an opportunity to cast someone really interesting as Captain in season 2 if they choose to go that route. If Saru gets the job, it a pretty fast promotion for him going from 2nd officer to Captain in a matter of months.

If the show is about Michael’s redemption, they have to be careful not to pay it off too soon. This season should end with her reinstatement to Starfleet. It would make sense for her to be demoted one rank (as Kirk was). But I could see her as first officer.

Realistically, Airiam is a Lt Commander, no? Not sure about anyone else. Too bad Landry didnt survive because she was a Commander and that “shade of grey” that would have made for an interesting first officer to Saru.

David

Saru was prepared to become First Officer of the Shenzhou over seven years ago. He was offended when Georgiou instead brought on Burnham. That was aired in the flashback. You miss that rivalry’s origin? He’s been first officer ever since he was assigned to Discovery under Lorca. He’s a Lieutenant Commander in rank… no reason he can’t be a first officer, or even promoted to Commander and captain a ship.

TUP

Yes, but Discovery has only been around…what six months? So first officer for six months. Going to Captain would be advancing him two ranks (2nd officer – first officer – Captain) in less than a year.

Im not as concerned with the creative aspect. Its fine, especially compared to goofy things like Kirk going from Cadet to Captain. But I didnt think the character of Saru being Captain fit the narrative of the show.

But I could see the Admiral promoting Saru and letting him choose his first officer as a reward “Chose anyone you want, anyone you trust to be your right hand” and he chooses Michael.

somethoughts

I can see captain Saru and 1st officer Michael working. Saru has earned the chair imo and Michael has redeemed herself.

Marja

It would be interesting to see an alien captain with a human FO for a change.

But I still want Lorca ….

somethoughts

There is a good chance PU Lorca shows up and saves the day. He could be the same Lorca we saw minus the evil I want to be emperor with Michael by my side crazy.

Victorinox

I didn’t really care for Saru at all all season. But that speech… “We don’t accept no win scenarios”…. Man, “Acting Captain” no more.

I was like
comment image

somethoughts

very powerful and emotional episode

Marja

I don’t think Saru became a strong character until Pahvo.

Tay Dervis

Lorca was absolutely awesome but I’m glad we are going on without Landry… until they (probably) reset the timeline of course.

TonyD

Very entertaining episode but I can’t help but feel disappointed with where they ultimately went with Lorca. Up until two episodes ago he was the most interesting and intriguing character in the show and despite all the hints to the contrary I was hoping that he was a damaged hero seeking redemption and ultimately wanting to do right by Starfleet and his crew. To have him turn out to be your typical black hat heavy who’s only real interests were conquest and power felt pretty anti-climactic to me. Ultimately I’m glad MU Lorca was killed off as I’d hate to see him devolve further into the baddie of the week.

As to other random thoughts…
– I’m still curious to see if there will be any kind of explanation about PU Lorca’s whereabouts and fate; I can’t believe they will just leave it as an ignored thread.
– It will be interesting to see how MU Georgiou and Saru will get along (dinner will be awkward to say the least)
– With only a couple of episodes left to go there seems to still be a lot of work left to do with the Klingon war.

ST DISCO FAN

I’ve had visions of her chasing him around the ship, trying to catch him for a special dinner — fit for an emperor! Um yum! Those tasty threat ganglia… *dreamy sigh*

Marja

ST D F
LOL! Snap! snap! go the chopsticks

Tiger2

I don’t really disagree with you, like everyone here I also liked Lorca a lot. Its sad he’s basically gone from the show now. I did like the twist though and I have to admit it was kind of hard to see him as captain at first vs all the others we had (although Sisko probably did some pretty questionable things during war time himself but he still felt like a starfleet officer most of the time). Lorca felt VERY different and in some ways a good different but I tried to imagine what he would be like after the war was over and would he still be this over the top? Obviously being from the MU he would have to be but it wouldn’t have worked long term. Also why I thought it was naive that people thought he could still be captain. This guy is anti-Federation, his entire core is the opposite of what the Federation believes in and that speech he gave to Burnham confirmed that. So he was never coming back.

As for the PU Lorca I read in an interview Isaac gave that they never really discussed the other Lorca and that they knew nothing about him or even what really happened to him. Its not to say they can’t determine that later though and maybe bring Isaac back for a few episodes.

Marja

I thought he could maybe still be captain until the Mirror Lorca thing was sealed. I thought a lot of his behavior was related to his shame over the loss of Buran … and I thought it would be SO LAME if he turned out to be a baddie. But [sigh]….

I really thought the writers were better than that re: Lorca. And I hope they will prove to be. Because Isaacs and the other actors had great chemistry, and I like the idea of an imperfect Starfleet captain, and I would love to see “realistic” Lorca versus “idealistic” Burnham, and Saru moderating between the two.

Tiger2

Well it was revealed before Fuller left Lorca was suppose to be a normal Captain, but the idea to change him to the MU happened later. NOW that said it sounded like they didn’t offer the part to Isaac until well after they had decided to make him the MU version so they might have probably got a completely different actor for the original Lorca.

Issacs has become known for playing the baddie I guess and it was funny when it was revealed he would be the captain a lot of people online did predict he was going to turn out bad, even in jest. I just don’t think anyone knew just how bad though lol.

Marja

TonyD, To have him turn out to be your typical black hat heavy who’s only real interests were conquest and power felt pretty anti-climactic to me.

I agree so hard.

I, too, was hoping he was a damaged hero. To have Jason Isaacs play a heavy … duh, it just felt so lame, because he’s done it before in movies and TV, and I was hoping they’d play against “type” with Isaacs but nooooooooo.

He’s a performer who can bring interesting layers to a character, and that’s why I and others really want Lorca back. He would not be a bland Prime Uni captain. I think he’d be challenging like Jellico on TNG, and not so very different from the Lorca we saw early in the season: somewhat impatient, a good leader [think of that speech he gave the crew at the battle at Pahvo], fascinated with aspects of science [though I think we can do without him dissecting tribbles, I liked his understanding of the DASH drive] and good at war.

And think of him and Burnham getting to know and trying to understand each other. How would Lorca react to that “history” and redeem his true paast from the lies of Mirror Lorca, especially with Discovery’s crew? This, to me, would be a fantastic B storyline to run throughout.

Personally I think it would be worth it for CBS to pay Isaacs a boatload of money, because Lorca was a fascinating character, and easily could be again.

Kirok

Fully on board with that, Marja. Could have been a fascinating captain paired with the ideals of Burnham. Major opportunity lost here to truly be a different and modern Trek.

Phil

Told you Lorca was going to get it…still thinking Tilly will, too.

TUP

Not a chance they kill Tilly. The only two that for sure safe are Saru and Tilly. They are the break out stars.

somethoughts

no away missions with just saru and the emperor ;) 1 to transport lol

Marja

Lol
The emperor looks so satiated!

DiscoTrek

I’d put Burnham in the for sure safe group too, but maybe that went without saying.

TUP

@Disco – I thought about putting her there too but I think what might happen is, Doug Jones and Tilly will end up break out stars when that wasnt intended from the beginning. Martin-Green could be a casualty down the road.

Sort of like TWD. You *can’t* kill Rick…but you *can* kill Rick before you kill Daryl.

Phil

The cost of Burnhams redemption is going to be her first post incarceration friend getting snuffed, and she’s going to be actively involved. Everything is temporary, a painful reminder that everything has a price to be paid.

Marja

Youch!

Garak Stole My Scissors

Tilly can’t go. She has the two best and biggest reasons to keep watching. I was really hoping she’d stay blonde though.

Marja

Gee, thanks a lot for such in-depth character analysis. Jason Isaacs has a great ass, but that’s not why I like him.

Garak Stole My Scissors

Perhaps you should. It’s the little things in life.

PEB

To add to your Random Thoughts section: the Discovery’s torpedos have an even more TOS sound effect than you could hear earlier in the season. You can also hear the classic warp sound from TOS at the end when Discovery jumps to warp before they engage the spore drive. Little things like this blended with the modern design make me love this show so much. Also, I don’t think Lorca was ever really a threat to the Discovery crew. He seemed genuinely proud of them because in his twisted mind, he was making them into a crew they could be proud of. Something tougher than what Starfleet would allow them to be. He never wanted to harm these people which is something else I appreciate with this version of the mirror universe. People on the other side aren’t inherently evil, but they’re more-so trying to survive and not holding back their inhibitions. Georgiou doesn’t seem necessarily evil but more-so someone who is doing exactly what she has to in order to survive and be in power. There were so many good things going in last night’s episode, I can’t wait to hear the podcasts go over it all.

Josh Killian

Goodbye Captain Lorca (aw). We barely knew ye. Hello Captain Saru and First Officer Michael Burnham!

ST DISCO FAN

Hip Hip Hooray!
For they are jolly good fellows…
Who nobody can deny!

ScubaTrek

After many misgivings about the tech and the timeline, I had finally made myself put them aside and just try to enjoy Discovery for what it is – an attempt to “modernize” Trek. And I was starting to do just that. But with episode 13 they lost me again. I actually enjoyed the Mirror Universe arc, but their return to “Prime” caused more irreparable damage to the timeline. An extended war with the Klingons in which the Klingons took over most of the Alpha quadrant? How could a huge event like that never be referenced in any other show that takes place after this? I really don’t see how they can reconcile this without a huge backward time leap that makes it so the entire season never happened. And if that’s the case, what was the point? I’ve said the whole time – I wouldn’t have a problem if they would have set the entire series in the future of what has come before – 100 years or so after Voyager, and get rid of the Spock connection. And either make the Klingons look like Klingons or make it a new race entirely. But convincing me that this happened 10 years before Kirk is just not going to happen at this point. I can only hope they have learned from the fan feedback they’ve gotten this season and use it to fix stuff in future seasons. Or, admit that this is either in the JJverse, yet another alternate reality, or… Read more »

Denny C

I think the ultimate reveal will be that the Prime Universe we have always known is actually the altered Prime timeline. I think Discovery will be a ship out of time.

Gary 8.5

It was just nine months, less than a year.
They came back later than they should.
It’s the same timeline, just later.

Denny C

Exactl. They came back later than they should.

Kevin Bleasdale

True but that’s like saying if some of yours goes missing the time line has changed. The time line would only be impacted to a new time line of discovery had never meant to disappear and someone came back to male that happen. The ship was simply missing

DiscoTrek

Scuba, I have had some of the same thoughts as you, but I have chosen to enjoy what they are throwing out there every week because it’s pretty bad ass and trust that the writers wrap it up in 2 episodes. If they tell us after 15 that they will explain everything in season 2 then let the flood gates open on the comments.

ScubaTrek

It’s a lot to fix in only 2 episodes. The writers/producers have said that they will reconcile to cannon “by the time we get to TOS era,” not necessarily by the end of season 1. I’ll watch, but my eye is getting more skeptical all the time. I’ll believe it when I see it.

Curious Cadet

@ScubaTrek — there’s still the issue of the producers originally stating that they set this series in the timeline they did to tie in with a specific incident referenced in Trek canon. Now they’ve jumped ahead 9 months, and given the state of the Federation, they can’t really just go forward; it’s unconscionable to me that the Enterprise would even be left standing at this point for Kirk to take command of in 10 years time. So it’s clear they go back in time, which opens up another possibility for that incident which anchors the series in this timeline. I truly hope it’s something that will delight all Trek fans, and not a reset which will most likely disappoint all. Canon also tells us the Federation hasn’t discovered time travel yet, so if they manage to do it, they will not likely have the control to go back to a point where they reset the timeline — and in either case, there will be two Discoverys, so that will have to be dealt with, which means any reset won’t be so clean and easy.

Tiger2

To be fair I think Enterprise has basically retcon the whole time travel issue and Discovery is following that canon. Archer has been to both the past and the future and part of alpha quadrant was mired in a temporal war. Of course it doesn’t mean they have figured out the mechanics of it completely but my guess is they have certainly dabbled with it since.

ScubaTrek

I’m not sure how valid that is. I believe that quote was from Bryan Fuller, and I don’t know how much of his original vision survived.

Tiger2

I think a lot of people are assuming they will go back in time to stop what happened. Maybe not the ENTIRE war though, maybe just the point at which they left. My guess is the other Discovery is somehow behind the Klingons getting such a foothold and they may try and stop what they did using the spore drive.

But I don’t really disagree with your points, a lot of the show doesn’t make much sense on a cannon level. Even as much as I enjoyed the MU arc it too basically breaks canon in a lot of ways now that we had both MU characters in the prime universe and vice versa. But Mirror, Mirror it was treated like this was all a completely new discovery. But again maybe that will all be rectified but I don’t see the point of all of this if you basically have to reset everything just to keep it in line with canon.

Jeff Jacobs

Ok, here’s what I think is gonna happen – obviously Saru & Michael give Admiral Cornwall that algorithm they developed, which will allow Starfleet to finally go on the offensive against the Klingons (perhaps with L’Rell’s help – perhaps not). Then with the fate of the war and the Federation hanging in the balance, Mirror Georgiou will volunteer some sort of suicide mission to prove herself worthy of the trust that Michael feels for her. This will allow the Federation to win the war and begin to align itself with TOS canon in Season 2.

Vulcan Soul

And then what? They will align with TOS canon and do the boring outdated exploring we couldn’t have from episode 1 because “modern television”? I think people are grasping for straws here. This series has removed itself so far from every episode of 50 years of Star Trek with a mere 13 episodes that it is naive to think they will go anywhere else but further down the abyss.

Marja

Life’s abyss
and then you fly

Kirk1701

I’ve pointed this out before, but I’m getting a strong Michael Jackson vibe from Burnham, especially in the MU armour. I was never a big fan, but the gold thing is really familiar. I don’t know why it was super obvious this week either. Maybe it was Burnham’s hairpiece? That was super obvious as well. It’s reaching near-Shatnerian levels of distraction. I really hope they restyle it or use Sonequa’s actual locks. It’s such a small detail, but I notice it every week and it bothers me. Are they really making a Michael Jackson parallel here? I know he loved sci-fi, so who knows?

Marja

The pointy hair was a little weird. I like Burnham’s normal look, short curls with a couple over her forehead. Cute and practical.

Kirk1701

Agreed. It’s such a silly detail, but it’s starting to look a little helmet-like. Wigs are super difficult to do in 4k resolution. I don’t envy the wigmaster/mistress his/her job.

somethoughts

her hair was cool in the premier, very different now.

Kirok

Only three glitches when I watched this last night. I’m wondering if I will be able to get a glitch free episode before the season finishes, however. OK… Here is the problem. For me, making Lorca the MU version of him is STILL irking me. Even if they bring him back as the PU version of Lorca, he couldn’t possibly be as interesting as he was his first 7 episodes. Anyway, the take over of the Charon was stupidly easy. The big glowing vulnerable energy ball seemed WAY too exposed to be reasonable. At least the 2nd death star buried theirs deep in the center of the thing. This entire episode felt disjointed and badly put together. I have to say that I was looking forward to the show having a big finish and it appears to be sputtering to a stop as if Scotty pulled the plug on it like he did to the Excelsior. At this point it will take a herculean effort to turn this show around. Really not sure the producers and writers are up to it. But I paid for my month so I’m sticking around to find out, I guess. PS The Terran sensitivity to light is dumb, too. I failed to mention that in the thread from the last episode. Aren’t they human too? And since I’m on about the MU, it simply does not make a lick of sense that everyone has a MU counterpart. So many timeline changes would mean people… Read more »

TUP

@kirok – are you still on about CBS AA? Have you checked the speed of your internet (this has been a recurring theme with you under various names). Seriously.

Also, the MU is absurd. Thats the way it is.

DiscoTrek

I have never had 1 problem with the streaming. I will say that I don’t like their web site but that’s aesthetics and i can deal with it

TUP

@Disco – the OP used to post under a different handle where he had the same issue. He said Netflix sucked and streaming as a technology wasnt very good because it always buffered for him. Netflix isnt perfect but if it ALWAYS buffers there is something wrong and it isnt with Netflix.

I’d definitely advise people with repeated problems to 1) report it to CBS (because they had that one serious issue which impacted a number of customers, so the more they know, the easier and faster they can fix it) 2) contact your ISP and check your download speed. If streaming always buffers, you likely need to upgrade (I speak from experience).

People think nothing has changed over the years but we have way more devices using our WiFi and at greater speeds and qualities.

If X amount of people watch the same service and the majority have no issues then the ones that do have to look at other causes before just constantly blaming CBS.

Marja

Also you may want to restrict any WiFi access that allows others[in your apartment complex, for example] to ride your stream.

Tiger2

I actually had a HUGE problem running AA two episodes ago. It buffered the whole time and was really frustrating. It took me two hours to even get through the episode. I was so angry but since I never had any major problems before I just told myself it was a fluke. And when I rewatched it a day later it ran normally again and has been since. Sometimes these things happen. The technology is still not 100% there so I know its frustrating for people at times.

Kirok

@Tiger

It’s not that big a deal, really. I decided to stream a couple of voyager episodes on the AA to see if the same issue was there. It wasn’t. Each episode streamed fine. It was in SD, however. Could that have made the difference? Don’t know. I’m not that huge a tech guy. I just know what I see. And DSC has had issues at some level on every streaming episode I saw. The only one that was flawless was the premiere I recorded on my DVR off CBS.

I mention it because I think when I’m paying for a certain level of service it ought to be at least at a similar level to other like services. The streaming service I subscribe to year round has had precious few issues and have had vastly superior customer support the few times I have had to contact them.

Marja

I think HD takes more space on the broadband because HD is hi-def and SD is “lower quality” — though SD looks just fine to me.

Then again, I used to watch Trek in black and white ….

TUP

Yes, HD is larger. Upgrade your internet. lol

Tiger2

Ok well thats good to know Kiork.

Marja

Could be easier to watch a couple – few hours later than everyone else. But then you’d miss “live” AfterTrek ….

Kirok

Marja I have never seen after Trek. I am guessing it’s just people associated with the show gushing about how great it is. Am I wrong?

I usually watch the show a few days after it “airs” or late Sunday night when the household is asleep. Sadly the mrs has zero interest in sharing anything Trek with me. Such is life.

Marja

TUP, agreed about the MU. How is it even sustainable?

Emperor: “Enlist 1,000 new soldiers to replace all the ones I got killed last month ….”

Tiger2

I wouldn’t worry about a PU Lorca showing up anytime soon because Isaac made it clear he’s officially off the show and said that they never even discussed what happened to PU or what he’s even like so there are no plans to even use him. He could come back of course but my guess is it just be as a guest role for a few episodes and nothing more.

I thought the episode was well written and directed though. I thought it all ended way too abrupt however since Lorca has been putting this plan together literally before we even met the guy and when he finally gets to push his plan to take the throne it only lasts just one episode. That was disappointing. I was hoping we got a full on conflict between him and Georgiou but they have to get back to the war I guess.

DiscoTrek

and he’s never lied before lol. I agree with you but not because what Issacs said

Tiger2

As I said he may appear again as PU Lorca in the future but my guess is he won’t be back permanently on the show.

Marja

Kirok Even if they bring him back as the PU version of Lorca, he couldn’t possibly be as interesting as he was his first 7 episodes.

I disagree. I think Isaacs and the writers could make him VERY interesting. This character could be layered well, what with PTSD, loss of his former crew, coping with the impact MU Lorca had, fighting a war, &c.

Terran sensitivity to light is dumb Instant retcon would be easy. Maybe their sapping the mycelial network is hurting them. Maybe their universe has been dimmer for centuries. Technobabble technobabble, solved!

TUP

It was said their universe was slightly darker.

I agree about Prime Lorca. I wasnt sold on it at first, but if he’s being held somewhere, you have the whole trauma thing, losing his ship, being impersonated etc. And of course, the fact he WAS a very good Captain (or wouldnt have been given the Discovery).

Kirok

Marja,

“I think Isaacs and the writers could make him VERY interesting. ”

Id be up to giving it a try but it doesn’t look like we will ever find out.

And no matter what technobabble is used to explain the light thing away, I’d still think the concept ridiculous. Even if semi plausible.

MattR

It definitely wasn’t a forgone conclusion that Jason Isaacs wouldn’t last more than one season. Just a few years ago he was the main character on the NBC tv series Awake. Ultimately that show got canceled but it shows that he is willing to be a lead character on a tv show

TUP

Especially a limited series one. Plenty of find big name actors doing all sorts of TV.

DiscoTrek

His presence will be missed and there isn’t anyone in the cast at the moment that can fill his shoes. Did anyone catch that after he is outed as the MU Lorca he changes to a “normal” American accent as opposed to the southern one? Pretty impressive.

JTL

I’m from Alabama. Lorca NEVER spoke in a southern accent. Ever.

DiscoTrek

sounded like it to everyone but you, so you must be right

JTL

I am, indeed. Thanks for agreeing with me! [insert happy face gif]

TUP

I didnt catch him switching up this episode although I felt something was different. That might be it. But he definitely has some twang in some of his dialogue throughout the season, either on purpose or a by product of him hiding his actual accent..

DiscoTrek

He stated early in the production he made a conscious decision to go with a southern accent

Marja

In “Awake” he did a kind of New York accent. I think Southern is a little easier for Brits, because they usually sound better doing that accent.

Marja

Occasionally he did. I’ve lived in Virginia.

Tiger2

The guy has been in plenty of TV, both American and British. Yeah I watched Awake too and loved it at the time. I didn’t even realize it was the same actor who was in Harry Potter lol. He was also in DIG on USA network and The OA on Netflix. And probably will be in the second season of that show since they never resolved his character and it was renewed. So yes, he has no problem during TV and would probably be in season 6 of Awake right now if that show was a hit for NBC.

Marja

Vass ist DIG? Because I want to watch it. Saw him in The OA, awesome. I think The OA filmed its 2nd season eps before DISC started filming.

Tiger2

I’m confused on your question Marja lol. Are you asking what is the show? If so its actually a religious/conspiracy show set in present day Israel. Isaacs plays an FBI agent who comes across the conspiracy. I liked it but wasn’t as good as I hoped and the ending could’ve been a lot stronger. Anyway if you want specifics just read about it here:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3597606/

Lorca’s Shadow

@Anthony Pascale you forgot that this episode had a nod to Gene Roddenberry’s Andromeda: the effect of Discovery flying through the mycelial network was almost identical to that of the Slipstream travel used in Andromeda, as evidenced by one of the pictures you posted in the article. This might be intentional since Majel had overseen the development of Andromeda and hers and Gene’s son now oversees Discovery.

Who cares

That thought crossed my mind too.

ST DISCO FAN

I’m exhausted! The highs… The lows… The fights… The emotional sequences… The team building speeches… The mind blowing special effects experiences…
Whew! What an episode… The BESTEST episode ever!
I’m gonna have to watch it at least three more times for see the parts I missed because I was closing my eyes from the tension or trying to catch my breath with all the excitement.
BTW… is the Federation going to need a xenophobic, single-minded and fiercely cruel Terran Emperor — i.e. mirror Phillpa Georgiou (because Burnham pulled the L’Rell “Hitch a Ride” Manoeuvre) — to help them win their universe back from the Klingons? Now that Lorca no longer is there to help them kick butt?
Uh huh… I thought so!

TUP

Also I should say I loved Saru in command, giving orders. He was great using his hands and not just sitting and talking. Doug Jones is magnificent at emoting under all that make up.

FLB

Doug Jones should have been nominated for an Oscar alongside his co-stars for ‘The Shape of Water’. If you haven’t seen it, do. Trek has a great actor among its brethren now.

IMHO, Discovery’s cast is the strongest of all the Trek series.

Marja

I just saw “The Shape of Water” tonight. Awesome.

DiscoTrek

I loved the shouted “Fire!”

TUP

It stood out to me how he pointed at the different stations while giving commands and sitting sort of forward.

As the “Spock” role, he’s been great and has made the character his own.

Marja

I have gotten a real appreciation for Saru over the last five episodes.
My admiration for Doug Jones and his employment of body language to convey emotion is nearly boundless.
Can’t wait to see “The Shape of Water,” although a very bad thing happens to a cat [and I’m very sensitive about cats], it sounds really good.

The Mantastic One

Overall I’m really loving this show, and this episode was outstanding (if not flawed with some strange quirks in logic within the story). One thing I’m very disappointed about is Lorca basically just flipping a switch and becoming a Bond villain all of a sudden. Yes, he’s from the MU and was plotting and scheming, but his time on Discovery demonstrated that there was good in him and made good decisions for his crew when he otherwise could have gone a different way. I genuinely don’t think that was all acting and smoke screens. I’m fine with his arc of leading a rebellion to overtake the Emperor, but they could have made it so he wasn’t so flagrantly villainous in doing so, and showed him as an at least partially changed person. Maybe have it where he orders that both Burnham and Discovery were not to be harmed, and offer to help Disco get back to the PU in exchange for keeping Burnham there. Maybe show a little more regret on his part for what he did to meet his endgame, while staying committed to achieving it. There was a lot more potential for drama and internal/external conflict to be gained that wasn’t tapped. Also, I’m not sure if I’m okay with the Emperor suddenly becoming a kinda sorta protagonist, being that she’s basically the Palpatine of Star Trek and responsible for countless lives being lost, and fear and suffering being the order of the day with everyone under her… Read more »

Marja

I’m fine with his arc of leading a rebellion to overtake the Emperor, but they could have made it so he wasn’t so flagrantly villainous in doing so

Yes, it would have been better if he was less of a Black Hat. Good grief, what a disappointment. I would like to have seen a revolution to end the needless cruelty of the Empire, especially where he could have employed some of what he learned from the Prime Universe.

Jan

Even though I think the show is a bit predictable I still enjoy it a lot. It’s entertaining. What I can’t believe is how bad the CGI effects on the show are. Even Enterprise looked better 15 years ago, to say nothing about BSG 10 years ago…

SanFranDisco

Someone hasn’t watched Enterprises in a while.

Enterprise’s CGI wasn’t even great for 2001, and looks woefully awful today on a big screen.

They got away with a lot more because the non FX stuff looked so cheap it didn’t feel out of place. That’s one reason the FX suffer somewhat on DSC: the sets are so incredible and realistic and movie-like that the FX shots don’t hold up quite as well.

But I’ve never been hung up on the FX in my Trek, none of the shows have ever had the best FX of their era, but they were always high quality, and DSC delivers that.

Cmd.Bremmon

I think Discovery suffers from the ship designs. The Discovery kind of looks TOS so it holds up ok except they don’t want to fire photon torpedoes, phasers, etc and give these ships something to do. The Klingon ships look like TNG snoozer ship of the week, the Starfleet ships look want-to-be-TNG. So while Discovery has better CGI it looks horrid compared to say TMP just because the Constitution class refit looks fantastic and the Klingon ships are of a better design strategically firing torpedoes as opposed to the SFX being better.

TUP

I dont want to say its the CGI. I dont think they’re cheap. I think its just the design. Discovery looks too thin and almost too slick. Ships move too fast.

We need more beauty shots, slower panning shot, details. Hopefully we get them in Season 2.

Shawn

I totally Agree and it has nothing to do with ship design. I really do think it’s a creative choice. The image is never crisp nor sharp, everything is always blurry and dark with lots of blue. Im not a fan at all of the sfx on this show. It feels like everything is HD exept for the space shots. There is too much blue and purple clusters. Just look at the upper Image of the Buran, its a great exemple. It’s like they intentionally add motion blur.

Iv’e seen fan work on youtube look beter than the space shot on STD. However the last shot of Discovery flying by shooting torpedoes was the best so far may I had. It looked good.

Still a good show so far. But I think they’ve miss an opportunity to elaborate on the war. We haven’t seen it and even less care for it.

But it’s getting better with time. It’s promissing. Im anxious to see the lower decks and meet the rest of the crew. Like whos the engineer ? The helmsmen?

Marja

It would be interesting to meet the engineer in charge of the warp drive. That person and Stamets might have a built-in conflict, or in contrast, a friendship.

Phil

As season one winds down, it’s pretty safe to say CBS has done a helluva job bringing Trek back. I sure hope they get season two on the download before 2019.

SanFranDisco

I’m curious about that. I’d be happy to wait a full year if it means better episodes, though.

It’s possible we’ll see the premiere in November or December if they make it in 2018, but more likely we’ll see it in 2019.

Phil

There’s a lesson to be learned from the extended hiatus between Trek09 and STID. Your audience drifts away if you don’t keep them engaged.

SanFranDisco

No lesson to be learned there.

1) the delay did not affect STID. The box office was actually a bigger hit globally, and while it was a tad lower domestically that owed more to it being an inferior film, with mixed word of mouth compared to its more positively received predecessor.

2) long time periods between tv seasons, particularly streaming shows, is less of a concern, because viewership on first airing isn’t as important.

3) a one to two year gap between seasons is not abnormal, nor is it problematic for viewership of a popular show. Westworld is poised for a massive second season despite a nearly two year wait. Doctor who took 2016 off. On the streaming side, Netflix drops seasons all at once and most shows wait a full year or more between drops.

Likewise British shows routinely go years between seasons: Sherlock has 4 seasons spread across 8 years. Luther twice went two full years between seasons. Red Dwarf has gone 2, 3, 4, and 10 years between various seasons.

The idea that fans will forget or lose interest if more than some arbitrary amount of time passes between seasons isn’t utter nonsense. A good marketing campaign will bring everyone back.

Besides, the season will end in February 2018 and its likely we’ll see the premiere of season two around February 2019.

That’s not a long wait.

Curious Cadet

@SFD — a tad down? It was down almost $29 million, and that’s not counting for inflation over 4 years. The International market was almost all new audience responding to a substantially increased marketing budget — reports are that it was over $120 million. So it’s pretty much a colossal failure in the US that they couldn’t beat the numbers they made with ST09 having spent that much more money to promote it. The issue with a film franchise is that they don’t have to rely on the expensive marketing of the film as much if it’s fresher in the audiences minds.

I agree it’s not an apt comparison here, for the main reason that TV doesn’t have as significant marketing costs — a TV network can promote its own shows without any cost. And Netflix, more or less has a captive audience trained to go digging for shows, not to mention, the ability to give a series prominent placement on the home screen. But I don’t agree that a show doesn’t lose audience momentum over a prolonged break, especially if it’s not a strong program to begin with … It’s always a struggle to get audience back, but it’s far easier when you don’t have to pay for every eyeball …

SanFranDisco

STID was down just 12% from the first movie domestically. We can quibble over what percentage qualifies for the term “a tad” but the larger point is that the delay was not really a part of it. Terminator 2 was 7 years after the first movie. Thor Ragnarok was 4 years after Dark World and was a massive hit. Same for Logan and The Wolverine. Mission Impossible 4 took five years.

The point is that when the product is good and the studio backs it with a strong marketing campaign, people have no problem coming back.

Let’s face it: the traditional 2-3 years between movies is more dictated by how long it takes to produce these movies than the imagined amount of time fans might stop caring about a series.

End of the day if it takes them a full year and a half to produce a good second season of Discovery, so be it. The fans of the show will come back, and the first season will be there to stream any time so audiences can catch up.

People are so eager to pretend they know the factors behind a shows success, and reasons why it’s doomed to fail. “Fans won’t watch this because x, y, z.”

Remember when people thought DSC would fail because of the delays and production problems?

TUP

STID was down because it sucked. 2009 had great word of mouth and many people who werent even Trek fans went to see it. STID had lousy word of mouth and was confusing to “new” fans who didnt understand it.

Corinthian7

@SanFranDisco This a fledgling streaming network and Star Trek is there one sure fire way of bringing and keeping subscribers. CBS can not afford for people to cancel this early in 2018 and not renew until 2019 so of course they will want to fast track New Trek. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve already been working on something. Maybe there was something to those Nick Meyer rumours.

SanFranDisco

@Corinthian

That is the funniest post yet. its funny when people act like they know why will and won’t work in a medium that’s still new enough not to have any real predictive data.

The way I see it, they have several new shows coming, including Twilight Zone, a show called $1, a drama called “Strange Angel,” as well as a new season of Good Fight in March.

They will no doubt have more new shows later this year, and Discovery will still be there to stream for those who haven’t watched it.

Believe me, CBS is well prepared to lose DSC fans, and I’m certain they view this as a long term investment; they may very well have planned to lose money in the first few years. I worked for a company that launched a digital app (not a streaming app but still) and they knew they’d lose millions the first three years at least.

Rushing out a second season that is mediocre is not the way to keep subscribers coming back long term.

Corinthian7

“That is the funniest post yet. its funny when people act like they know why will and won’t work in a medium that’s still new enough not to have any real predictive data.”

If you find my post so hilarious for ‘acting like I know what will and won’t work in a medium that’s still new enough not to have any real predictive data’ why do you spend the rest of your post ‘acting like you know what will and won’t work in a medium that’s still new enough not to have any real predictive data.’? I guess you don’t really understand irony or narcissism.

For the record I never said they should rush out season 2, I said I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve already been quietly working on new Star Trek material and I used the example of the numerous reports that Nick Meyer had also been consulting on a second Trek project to support this conjecture.

TUP

I agree. It wasnt the delay that hurt STID. It was that it sucked.

Marja

Agreed Phil. Cripes I hope we don’t have to wait until 2019.
JJ may have killed NuTrek by faffing around for three years before beginning STID. I know a lot of the fanfic audience was gone. And especially after STID, they faded away.

Enthusiasm fades.

Tiger2

Yeah I agree. I still have some issue with the show but it was a smart move to bring in so many people who worked on Trek and not only worked on it but people of all eras of the franchise from the TOS movies through Voyager. Canon and prequel issues aside I also liked that they tried to make a Trek show for the modern era. It doesn’t look and feel like any of the other shows and thats a good thing IMO because Trek has to evolve to stay relevant. So its great to know even though most people working on it are old Trek hats they still manage to make something that feels different from the others.

Maybe the issue for some is its TOO different and probably darker and cynical than they like but it is part of the modern era of television.

Victorinox

Am I the only one disappointed that we didn’t see the USS Defiant??

That must count as the biggest tease of all time…

TUP

To a degree. I figured we wouldn’t The reason for the weird wire-frame image was so they didnt have to commit to a look for the ship or create a detailed image.

But it was a major plot point….just dropped. if anything, Starfleet should want to time jump and go back and destroy it 100 years ago…or maybe they dont care.

Kirok

I figured we would never see it mainly because I seriously doubt the show runners would risk opening up THAT can of worms. It was mentioned in the thread for a previous episode.

Tiger2

I am too but it was probably for the best. Once they showed the interior of the ship and it was just slightly off from what we saw on TOS and Enteprise people would’ve had a fit. I mean they could’ve excused it with the fact the ship was a century old but then others would’ve point out why did the Enterprise in that universe look exactly the same in Mirror, Mirror? In other words they were just saving themselves a ton of headaches by just teasing it.

Curious Cadet

@Victorinox — it’s too bad really. However, there appears to be a problem. Discovery has the recovered MU database, including the information about the Defiant. At a minimum that would seemingly be enough for Starfleet to want to keep the Defiant from crossing over in the first place. On the other hand, maybe the department of temporal whatever realized if they did that, then things might have turned out differently for Discovery as well as the Federation in the Klingon war, resulting in the temporal Prime Directive. Or, all that information somehow is destroyed on Discovery.

Corinthian7

One way or another but presumably involving time travel the Discovery will save the day and Starfleet will have to declassify everything just to let the Defiant end up in the MU to set the ball rolling.

Victorinox

I agree. But I don’t think the MU arc is over yet, at least not until we see MU Georgiou’s fate. There is still time to explain that.

In any case, other than knowing the Defiant crossed into the MU, they don’t know when, where or how that happened (since they never got to the Defiant’s database).

So unless they preemptively destroy the ship, I’m not sure how can you warn them not to cross over.