UPDATED: Morrison clarifies
Actress Jennifer Morrison has clarified her comment made at Calgary Expo, saying she was “joking.” See follow-up article for more.
Original Article
The ‘Star Trek 4’ follow-up to 2016’s Star Trek: Beyond was recently announced as moving ahead, with Paramount looking to S.J. Clarkson to direct. Chris Hemsworth is is set to return as George Kirk, who was last seen sacrificing himself to save his crew in the opening scene of 2009’s Star Trek, a powerful moment that led to the safe escape of his wife Winona (Jennifer Morison) and his newborn son, James T. Kirk. Little else is known about the plot of ‘Star Trek 4,’ but Morrison may have just dropped a small clue.
George Kirk moments before USS Kelvin rams Narada in Star Trek (2009)
George Kirk’s supposed death?
At Calgary Expo last weekend, actress Jennifer Morison held a panel that mostly dealt with her starring role as Emma on Once Upon a Time, however moderator (and Star Trek Voyager star Garrett Wang) began by talking about the opening scene of Star Trek, where Morrison said something interesting. Here is the exchange:
Wang: As an actor, I think it is incredibly difficult to play the role of a mother who just gave birth to James Tiberius Kirk, knowing that your husband is 36 seconds away from death, basically…
Morrison: [interjecting] Supposed death.
Wang: Supposed death, right.
Morrison: [smiling] Just saying.
Winona Kirk expresses anguish, moments after Kelvin rams Narada in Star Trek (2009)
Did George Kirk survive the battle with the Narada?
Morrison’s interjection seems small, but raises a big question. George Kirk’s scene in 2009’s Star Trek (which you can watch on YouTube) has no hints that he survived the battle, so why would Morrison make a point of correcting Wang with the “supposed death” comment? The film is almost ten years old, and George Kirk’s death was never in dispute before, which raises speculation that Morrison has been approached to appear in the newest Trek movie, along with Hemsworth.
If Morrison’s comment is to be taken at face value, it also opens up the possibility that George Kirk didn’t die. Perhaps the Romulans, or someone else beamed him off the Kelvin at the last second. Since the Narada attack, George may have been held prisoner, possibly by the Klingons, who (in deleted scenes) captured the Narada after the battle with the Kelvin and held the crew on the prison planet Rura Penthe.
Klingon prison from deleted scene from 2009’s Star Trek
The presumption on how James and George Kirk will team up has been that the ‘Star Trek 4’ will involve time travel and it’s possible Morrison is simply referring to that. That being said, if George Kirk did survive the Narada attack, that does not preclude the film also involving time travel and in fact it could help allow for the actor’s age difference as Hemsworth, now 34, shot Star Trek when he was 24.
Then again, maybe Morrison’s comment means nothing, and she has no notion about the fate of George Kirk. But, we are Trekkies and it is fun to speculate.
Chris Hemsworth at ‘Avengers: Infinity War’ premiere, actor set to return for ‘Star Trek 4’
Watch Morrison’s curious interjection
You can watch the exchange on George Kirk’s death below (via Tahirah Lowe on YouTube). Garret Wang mentions he saw 2009’s Star Trek ten times and cried ever time he watched the opening scene with Hemsworth and Morrison.
Stay glued to TrekMovie.com for all news, whispers and more about the future of Star Trek movies. You can keep tabs on all updates on the next movie via our Star Trek XIV category.
Was pretty much expecting ” Well – we didn’t SEE him die ” wink wink wink…
No but we did see him crash the ship at speed – fly from his chair and into a fireball moments later..
I’m guessing Star Trek 4 will undo the Narada incident and reset the timeline.
@David Oakes — given the lack of integration with CBS Merchandising efforts, I’d say this is the only way CBS lets another expensive BR movie go forward if Viacom and CBS merge with CBS running the entire operation.
On the other hand, I think I’d prefer a George-Kirk-survived-somehow story.
If BR is still towing the “Kelvin Universe” non-canon explanation that these movies are taking place in an alternate universe, and not just an alternate timeline, then they have a conundrum if they try to “fix” the timeline, since any such attempt would create yet another parallel universe. But as it’s non-canon, it fits with established Trek canon, so few would likely know the difference, or care probably.
When Bakish was brought in at Viacom he started cleaning house and replacing Brad Grey with Jim Gianopulos was a major step. Since Bakish arrived Viacom’s fortunes have turned around and both Bakish and Gianopulos are both very aware of the value of the assets at their disposal. These aren’t the same people who essentially ceded control of the franchise to a third party and then allowed that third party to determine when the next film would be released.
Paramount will throw money at the next film but they’ll get back to the basics of marketing a film to build interest. The buzz they’ve created for the next film (two, actually) is a first step.
1) They could easily decide the traditional time travel rules apply and that the JJ films are the Prime Universe being over-written with a new timeline that no one bothered to try and fix for 30+ years.
2) Desperately need better marketing. I still love the original teaser with them building the Enterprise and Nimoy’s voice over.
3) film two movies back to back and get Shatner for the second one (filming concurrently since he aint getting any younger). Have the George Kirk stuff lead to a cliff hang ending with Shatner showing up (or at least a post credits scene).
And resolve it all in the 5th movie.
1) Get real-why would they destroy the timeline to satisfy ‘fans’ that didn’t like this new timeline?🙄
2) How much more ‘better marketing’ does this version of the franchise need?
3)No, God, PLEASE NO-it’s time that Shatner stay out of Star Trek as Kirk (and it’s time that you and other fans accept the fact that there’s a new Captain Kirk, and his name is Chris Pine.) Asking an 80-something year old man to play an action hero role he’s already played as a younger man is beyond the pale and foolish.🙄
Curious Cadet,
Re: still towing the “Kelvin Universe” non-canon
How so? Orci, himself, acknowledged that he could only hold the fort on that as long as he worked there and he said his tour was up. He’s the only one that’s ever claimed to fully comprehend his premise.
And when Pegg stepped in and defended his script’s changes, he rewrote Orci’s off screen premise based on a resolution of the Grandfather Paradox. In Pegg’s “universe” past moments are coming into existence as direct result of a future act that hasn’t occurred for them, yet. But not only that, past moments are causally tied to Nero’s future incursion such that its also causing them to be different than the deterministic Grandfather paradox creating past that Orci described as identical to the one with which all Trek fans are familiar prior to Nero.
But more importantly, because in Pegg’s model an act in a future moment can affect change in a past one, Orci’s Grandfather Paradox block to intra-universe past time travel is removed.
It IS possible to change the past in this universe through time travel. However, it now is not as easily discernible what past acts needs to be changed to effect a desired result in the future, because the causal links are now all over the place and not necessarily one right after the other like carefully lined up dominoes falling.
@Disnivited — that was Pegg’s explanation for his script. But he wasn’t in any real position to enforce those things. Not that the “Supreme Court” actually gave Orci any sway either, but certainly Bad Robot could see it that way still, despite Pegg’s musings. In any event, they could see a new movie any way they want to as well. We know the two writers Orci brought in may have a role in one of the movie scripts being developed, so they could vary well be towing the Orci line. That said, none of it matters until they do something about it in canon.
Curious Cadet,
Re: that was Pegg’s explanation for his script.
Indeed, and I was just trying to explain how it dismantles their off screen logic – not legitimize it. As you know, we both agree on the definition of canon.
It would invalidate the character’s sacrifice and remove all the emotional weight from the scene.
Only if he somehow knew (or at least suspected) he would survive. Otherwise his sacrifice remains the same.
I didn’t think Star Trek III did that regarding Spock?
BorgKlingon, that was my main issue with SFS. That it completely undid everything WOK was trying to say. Oh well. Trek had to go on, I guess. I’m glad it did but still….
I disagree about Spock but potentially agree about George. Spock was far bigger a character than George so the audience wanted him to survive even if it undid the emotional ending of WoK.
But the way they did it made it less an undoing and more a continuing journey of the story of friendship, mortality, aging etc.
TUP,
TSFS left my feelings bifurcated and conflicted.
One, as a Nimoy fan, I was happy he got to stick it to the man in getting his lawsuit settled and advance his career.
On the other, I was deeply troubled that in using Paramount to his own ends, he hijacked Meyer’s excellent narrative and drastically altered its trajectory through the films to follow as ML31 indicated.
Those films should have built on the lesson Spock taught the cadets in TWOK’s opening and in its conclusion. They should have been about how the supreme sacrifice of their teacher and mentor forged these cadets for their voyages to come.
I would have much rather had Nimoy the actor’s return continue the framing of TWOK and have Spock, the teacher, appear in the opening of the film in flashback at the Academy instructing the cadets in some other lesson pertinent to the events that will unfold. And if Nimoy, the director, felt he wanted Nimoy, the actor, to have more to do, I suppose he could have taken the flashbacking as far as KUNG FU the television series, but it should be deftly done.
That would be fine. But the narrative was about Kirk, not the cadets so I didnt feel it hijacked anything. Although in so much as it was about aging, using the cadets better (or at least, Saavik), would have been a nice comparison.
I always thought killing David the way they did, especially with Carol not appearing, was too quick an end to an intriguing story (and Kirk’s direct line).
TUP,
Never meant to imply that Kirk wouldn’t be the Captain or not doing his part to get them into shape.
Merrick Butterick (David) didn’t want to continue on as David Marcus, and the writers most likely felt that having David die was a way of paying back the universe for using protomatter in the creation of the Genesis Device (David did survive-in a way-in the DC Comics Star Trek comic book; his Mirror Universe counterpart lives to be a member of the resistance to the Terran Empire, and to bring about its end at the end of the story, with help from his ‘father;’ the prime universe’s Admiral Kirk.)
Not sure that it does, Brian Drew. If you “knew” you were going to perish in your act, and you did that act, to save others, does the fact that you survived lessen your courage?
George Kirk executed a “kamikaze” attack to save others. He willingly and lovingly did so because he knew his life was only one of trillions and he wanted to give it to save his universe — the one he knew, and the one that contained his wife and son, and trillions of others. At the moment of his decision, his heroic sacrificial intent was sealed for all time.
That he might have survived thereafter, is, to me, immaterial as to his courage and will to sacrifice himself.
I just came to say almost the same thing. I watched it closely, and I think we see George, quite literally, go “through the windshield”… Maybe Jim goes back in time to save him.
@Randy — agreed that may have happened. However, it could be a 2001 ASO move where he is ejected through open space on a trajectory which deposits him inside Nero’s damaged ship, similar to Data leaping across space in NEM. Certainly stranger things have happened.
Curious Cadet,
What an interesting premise. And George Kirk could have been pulling a Ben Finney on Nero’s ship all a long, too bad it wasn’t explored.
Star Trek 4 will NOT undo the Narada incident. That’s ridiculous.
I’m in complete agreement.
The opening scene is probably the best part of all three of the new films.
But was there ever an explanation for the opening scene of the 09 film?
If Spock and Nero’s ship were both near Romulus when the red matter was used, and the red matter absorbed the super nova explosion and both ships, which in turn sent the ships back in time.
Where did the super nova explosion go?
Why was the super nova energy not sent back in time as well?
Also if the ships travelled backwards in time and the explosion was not sent back in time, where did the Klingons come from?
Did the red matter not only sent Spock and Nero back in time but did they also travelled in space as well?
Otherwise why was there Klingon ships beside Romulus?
Aside from that it’s an awesome opening scene.
In JJ’s films, time and space dont really matter it seems. They imagine the universe like a neighbourhood with Earth, the Kligons and Romulans all living a few doors down from one another.
If I recall, both Spock and Nero were on their way back to Rumulus, so not there. Presumably they were closer to the Klingons. Keep in mind, Klingon territory in Nero’s time was likely far different than in Kelvin time.
Another explanation would be, since Nero and Spock travelled time and space, they also came out in a different spot.
They were sucked into a black hole created by the red matter, so no “explosion” per se. Which also means, Nero could have been sucked into yet another time/universe at the end of the film.
Thanks.
Explosion was about the super nova energy. Why did that not also travel back in time?
Also did they ever give an explanation why the Klingons did not take the narada apart? Or how Nero got it back?
They must have come out a different spot because if you don’t come out at a different point in space that Vulcan should have been destroyed in the past because the remains of Vulcan should have been rained down upon Vulcan in the past.
No explanation that I recall. In fact, unless you read the comic, you dont know what the heck Nero was doing for 25 years. The idea he just laid low waiting for Spock actually makes more sense than he was captured by Klingons who simply imprisoned him rather then torture him for info and helpfully kept his ship intact and ready to be re-taken (and also, that the Klingons did not pursue Nero after his escape).
2009 was generally praised, but it had the same weak plot holes as the other films. But it was over-all less offensive then STID so we over-look it more.
Thanks
Why does everyone assume that it will be the George Kirk from the battle with the Narada?
Why not an evil George Kirk from the mirror universe?
Evil George Kirk vs good Jim Kirk could be awesome.
@Isabella — well that’s not a bad idea. I see a couple of issues though. On the one hand, it sets up the ability to traverse universes, which is prevented by the QM:MWI invoked by Orci to create the parallel alternate “Kelvin” universe. Otherwise, they could have sent Prime Spock home. That could be overcome, if they return to traditional canon Trek time travel rules, and allow the timeline to not only be reset, but parallel universes to pass matter between them.
Then there’s DISC, which introduced their series with the Mirror Universe. If Bad Robot does the same thing, then they are treading on DISC a bit. That said, if Paramount is smart, and cooperating with CBS, it allows a kind of integration that hasn’t existed since post corporate split.
It’s fiction. Different writers can do anything they want. As long as they don’t insist they are following previous writers rules for time/reality travel while breaking them. It does not really matter.
Writers only get into trouble when they either intentionally or unintentionally mislead fans about what they are doing. Other wise it’s all just water under the bridge.
There are billions of dimensions out there, paramount could easily do a completely deferent evil alternate reality to discovery.
Isabella,
Re: Different writers can do anything they want.
While it is true that different writers do, it’s not exactly as you’ve supposed:
”PAULA BLOCK [CBS Senior Director of Product Development]: “Canon” in the sense that I use it is a very important tool. It only gets muddled when people try to incorporate licensed products into “canon”—and I know a lot of the fans really like to do that. Sorry, guys—not trying to rain on your parade. There’s a lot of bickering about it among fans, but in its purest sense, it’s really pretty simple: Canon is Star Trek continuity as presented on TV and Movie screens. Licensed products like books and comics aren’t part of that continuity, so they aren’t canon. And that’s that. Part of my job in licensing is to keep track of TV and Movie continuity, so I can help direct licensees in their creation of licensed products. It gets a little tricky because it’s constantly evolving, and over the years, Star Trek’s various producers and scriptwriters haven’t always kept track of/remembered/cared about what’s come before. ” — ‘D.C. Fontana On TAS Canon (and Sybok)’ by A Pascale | TrekMovie.com | July 22, 200
Isabella,
Re: Different writers can do anything they want.
‘D.C. Fontana On TAS Canon (and Sybok)’ by A Pascale | TrekMovie.com | July 22, 2007
Dropped a digit somehow. My apologies
The point I was making was that since first contact/enterprise canon has been fundamentally broken.
Writers are just doing what they want with no real regard to “canon” beyond statements that its canon or that it will all work out in the end.
So they can easily do a story which involves time/dimensional travel even if the 09 canon does not allow it.
This was true for enterprise, the Abrams films and discovery.
Just restart/re-imagine/reboot the franchise from scratch.
Good stories are all that matters.
Imagine how much better into darkness would have been with different character names used rather than khan and Marcus.
In broad strokes Star Trek kinda worked as taken together from tos/films/tng-voyager.
Since then it’s been a mess.
Isabella,
I agree. But for me, the problem goes further back to too much resorting to time travel in general with most of those resorting to it not bothering to do the extra work of trying to imagine how it may change things in Trek’s future history.
But you are right, after 1st Contact they went hogwild bat$#it crazy on time travel.
They went off the rails in the first contact in not fixing timeline and from there they just got worse.
From the time traveling ending of voyager, to enterprise, to the 09 films and discovery everything has been a continuity nightmare.
If they want to change everything that’s fine, just restart the franchise and don’t insist it all fits together.
That’s when all the prequel stuff started. ;)
But I been saying for a while if Discovery was just called a reboot more people would probably be fine with it.
Same for the Kelvin films.
Which is why I don’t get this bizarre need to keep it all in the same universe BUT then create these prequels that just screws it up more? Everyone seems to want to play in the same universe (even Kelvin claimed everything that came before was still canon) but then want to reshape it all. All it does is get the hardcore fans upset and yet the only reason its set in the prime universe and a prequel is to supposedly get them more on board.
I will never get it. That said even with my issues with both the Kelvin films and Discovery I generally like them, but I’m not sure I will ever love them for these very issues. And you’re right different writers do different things, which is why none of this is shocking.
Discovery would work far better (it would still have massive problems from a writing standpoint) if it was a reboot or use difference races/characters to the original Star Trek.
Rather than making Klingons into orcs they could have just made new aliens instead.
The central problem with discovery is caused by the constant refrain that it’s canon,and your crazy if think otherwise.
I think it’s because they want their cake and eat it to.
The vast majority of people love tos and tng, but unfortunately the writers of Star Trek tend not to like tos/tng hence shows like DS9/enterprise/discovery and the 09 films which are radically different to tos/tng.
The writers want to do something that is not like the original versions of Star Trek but still want the fans of the most popular versions of Star Trek to watch it.
@Isabella — ah but Orci did intend to mislead audiences. He intentionally made the method of time travel, and the questions of parallel universes, ambiguous for audiences to enjoy both ways. That’s what’s created the current issues. In order to resolve this idea, they will have to explain the situation, which will either confirm or reject the idea of the current films being set in an alternate universe, or just an alternate timeline overwriting the original — a sore point for fans.
The bigger issue is whether Paramount will want to explore territory onscreen that CBS has made an integral part of its new series.
Curious Cadet,
There’s been such a purge over at Paramount; is there actually anybody left in charge of STAR TREK there that cares one way or the other? I get the feeling the new Paramount Executive Suite only cares that it be likely to make them quick money?
If they want quick money, they need to stop spending so damn much on the films.
I read article a couple of years ago which claimed that when ajusted for inflation the average that all the Star Trek movies make is around 400 million. That’s the average some have done better, otherwise worse.
But 400 is about what a Star Trek film makes, so they need to stop spending 200-250 on films including advertising if they want to turn a profit.
There is no real need to explain the situation of the 09 film, since there is nothing in it that actually ties it to the prime continuity at all. Beyond statements from the writers that it does. But nothing on screen.
Even the bits in the future with Spock don’t actually have anything that connects to the prime timeline. Examples of that include the jelly fish ship and the narada which both share no aesthetic similarity to any ships made by Starfleet nor the Romulan empire.
The future bits of the 09 film could easily be a different timeline/dimension to the prime one.
Why would paramount not want to explore the mirror universe? It would allow them to turn them to turn Star Trek into Star Wars again 😜
Just as the 09 film was a remake of a new hope.
They could make Star Trek 4 a rip off the empire strikes back, a good son saving the galaxy from the evilness of his father 😜
@Isabella, I get what you’re saying but by the same token, why does the MCU share a universe if it doesnt really matter? Because it DOES matter, when done properly.
You’re trading on an emotional connection that makes 50 years of material and relationships mean more than new ones. In the case of Star Trek, its even more pronounced because an origional, non-canon, film would not just have to capture the audience on its own, it would be compared to “canon”.
I actually think its easier to embrace the canon. Orci et al might complain about canon hurting their creative freedom, but its not like they’re great writers anyway. Its not like telling Picasso he can only paint in certain colours.
2009 works much better when canon is embraced. The Spock/Nero scenes from the future being PRIME and the opening with the Kelvin, until Nero showed up, being PRIME. Its when they decided to wave their egos around and make change just for the sake of change that things faltered.
And they definitely did not concretly state that it was a new universe. Casuals probably dont care or even think about it. Hardcore fans know what they were trying to do. people in between might have been confused as to why no attempt was made to fix everything.
No I don’t disagree. I’m a big fan of canon.
I was only saying that if they can’t keep canon, which they can’t, it would be just simplier to stop claiming it all fits together. Which it does not.
Either follow canon or don’t. Don’t claim it’s canon when it’s bloody not.
@Isabella — Oh I see, you’re stuck on visual continuity as canon. An obvious argument is that the Jellyfish was a ship designed by the Vulcans to do a specific job and was state of the art. Nero’s ship is a commercial ship, not one designed by the Romulan Empire, so there’s nothing really concrete to discuss there. The Kelvin fits quite nicely into pre-TOS canon.
As for the Mirror Universe, generally studios try to avoid stepping on each others creative toes, especially when one studio holds the copyrights and trademarks grated with the other studios license to make movies. There’s also a desire to offer something original with their particular movies, over a weekly TV series people can get at home. But I’m with you — the MU would make for a fun high budget movie, if not seriously confusing to a mainstream audience.
The idea that visuals are not canon is kinda silly, in that case why is out of date dialogue not canon as well?
If visuals are out of date so they can be changed, why not also change words and concepts that are out of date as well?
We have already seen super fast designs for federation ships and they do not look jellyfish.
Beyond the photograph in beyond there is nothing in the films that are an actual tie to the original films.
They even have a different approach to time travel.
Whereas in the prime timleine, they attempt to fix the timleine when things go wrong, Old Spock never bothers to try and return to his own timeline and stop the alternate timeline from occurring.
Which one would imagine he would do, since you know billions of people are dead because of him. Instead he just goes off to become yoda.
Isabella,
Re:not canon
The reason is because everything starts in written form on the printed page as a script which describes things in general, perhaps sometimes poetic, terms and not with patent level detail. That’s why the things said on screen carry more import than the way things look.
Put 5 different art directors each on their own separate stage with a copy of the same script and comeback after a month of construction, you will not find 5 identical, with assembly line precision, constructs will result.
The only thing the 5 stages will have in common is that all of them will be serviceable for filmmakers to tell the tale contained in the script.
Using that understanding then when the written word describes the size or the colour of a thing surely that must be canon?
@isabella — give us an example of where that occurs in Trek canon which has been violated.
So the bigger version of enterprise in discovery is not violating canon then?
@Isabella — how is it bigger? Visually? What specific canon is being violated?
The people working on the show have already admitted they cheated and made the enterprise bigger to fit in with the world of discovery.
If the ship is bigger than it was in the original, then that’s violating canon.
But where in canon is it delineated? Did they say it has a larger crew? Did TOS give us the dimensions in dialogue? Where was the canon actually violated?
@isabella — you’re mistaking art direction for story and concepts, and your biases are showing. And by the way, words and concepts are changed for modern audiences. We no longer speak the language and metaphors of Shakespeare do we?
Again, the jellyfish is a Vulcan ship. And Leonard Nimoy is a tie to the original films.
They claim to have a different approach to time travel but they do not cement it in canon — it’s an off-camera explanation. You want a reason for why they don’t try to fix the timeline? They don’t know how — even in TOS time travel wasn’t discovered until an accident in 2266. And STID tacitly gives us the explanation of why Prime Spock doesn’t attempt to do it since he knows how — Admiral Marcus. Marcus doesn’t want Spock to change his past. He’s had 25 years to become top dog in the Federation and has built an empire which he runs in the shadows. He’s likely got Spock under de facto house arrest, watched by Section 31 to prevent him meddling with his timeline — banished to help rebuild New Vulcan, among Vulcans whom we last learned did not believe in time travel, without access to the resources he would need to do it. Then he dies before he can assemble the resources to fix the timeline.
Vulcan ships were shown in tng, they look like birds like Romulan ships do. Not jellyfish.
I’m not showing bias. Art direction is part of the story. It’s an odd to position not to recognize that.
When a new war and peace tv show is made, they make look like it should. Between set design and costumes etc it matches the book. Look at Star Wars, it’s the exact same thing.
Why does old Spock not know how to change the timeline? Since you know if it’s the Spock form the prime timeline he would know how to do it. Let he does not.
Into darkness did not give any reason why old Spock did not chage the timeline. At the 09 film he went off to become yoda on his own behalf nothing to do with Marcus banishing him. Plus if he was under house arrested how did young Spock immediately get in contact with him? Since you know under your view he is under house arrest? House arrest with freedom to interact with anyone? Why did not tell his younger self or his father how to fix the timeline?
The idea that vulcans don’t believe in time travel would no longe be true. Since you know they have an actual time traveler from the future in the midsts.
Plus what resources would he need for time traveling?
Since all you need to do was fly around the sun really really fast to travel in time in tos,what can’t he just do that?
Also in prime timleine there is a thing call the time police like the uss relativity who would have fixed the changes to the timeline. Yet there is no evidence of time police in the 09 timeline.
@Isabella — you’ve seen every vulcan ship ever designed — and all new prototypes? And you know that all Vulcan ships are locked in static design space, required to use the same design language no matter what their purpose? You know for a fact what a ship designed to carry red matter must look like?
Star Wars is not the exact same thing as Star Trek. No way, no how.
Old Spock does know how to change the timeline. I never said he didn’t. What I stated was that he’s not allowed to.
No reason at all is given for why Spock did or didn’t try to change the timeline. Just like it is not explicitly stated that they are in a parallel universe rather than an alternate timeline. Indeed they state they are in an “Alternate reality” which equates most closely to alternate timeline (see Back To The Future). So I have extrapolated a logical reason why Spock was prevented from fixing the timeline, using Marcus.
Marcus is a manipulator, we’ve already seen this. He told Prime Spock that he would be watching him, and any attempt to fix the timeline would result in serious consequences for his younger self. Marcus can’t just lock Prime Spock away and interrogate him, given his relationship with Kirk who just saved the galaxy, and Spock, one of starfleets high profile officers who also helped save the galaxy; but he surely can’t let someone from the future just run around unguarded either — at a minimum he’s a security risk to the Federation, at worst he’s a threat to Marcus and everyone in the Federation as it exists.
I’m seriously doubt that Prime Spock is allowed to identify himself as a time traveler. The security surrounding such a person would be extraordinary. Everything involving Prime Spock and Nero would be classified even beyond the Talos IV level. Vulcan’s would not know Spock or Nero ware from the future. And KU SPock wouldn’t be able to discuss it.
So you think anyone can just acquire a starship and do anything they want with it? Again, Marcus is tightly controlling Prime Spock. He has the appearance of being free, but is not. He couldn’t be, and have any internal logic with respect to STID. Not only can’t Spock speak about time travel, he’s not allowed access to a warp capable starship to do with as he pleases.
Now in TOS, Kirk violated the timeline all the time. Yet the Time Police were nowhere to be found. As you recall in COTEOF, the timeline was changed so dramatically by McCoy’s actions, that the Federation ceased to exist. Presumably so did the time cops, or they would have fixed it. So, Nero’s incursion could have likewise changed it the same way. Time travel is never accidentally discovered, so no temporal agency is ever created to police the timeline. This almost happened in ENTERPRISE whien Archer was stranded in the 29th century.
Why would they design a jellyfish?
Since they showed super advanced fast ships in star trek before, plus Vulcan ships and none of them looked the slightest bit like the jellyfish.
Why would a containment unit for a material need a jellyfish design?
If Vulcan was destroyed the federation would be crippled, leaving them vulnerable to attack from the Klingons, why would Marcus not want to fix the timeline and strengthen the federation?
Why would old Spock not be allowed to get a ship? Since his father is a prominent man in the federation, his younger self is second in command on the enterprise and his best friend is captain. Why can’t they help him?
If he is being tightly controlled how did young Spock get through to him?
Why was he allowed to spill his guts about khan?
Why would old Spock care about what happened to his younger self? Since when he fixed the timeline his younger self would cease to exist anyway.
You know the whole the needs of the many out way the one.
The only reason why the timeline was not fixed was because the writers wanted to play in the new sand box of the 09 timeline, that’s it.
The time police not fix the timeline when the changes are repaired themselves, since Kirk always fixed the timeline. There was no need for them.
Time ships exist outside of time, like the uss relatively so they are uneffected by changes in the timeline.
But why is Star Trek not like every other film or tv show? I.e. actually look like it should, why is that only in Star Trek everything gets screwed up?
By the way Alternate reality is not alternate timeline.
Realities are completely different to timelines.
If Old Spock traveled backward through time and into a different reality then the 09 films have nothing to do with the prime timeline. Because it is a different reality, not timeline.
Hence everything looks different from steam powered engines to Star War’s imperial uniforms including the hats while on earth.
@Isabella — again, you’re doing nothing but prarding your own biases here and proving nothing. Why would they not design the Jellyfish?
You need to get out more. If the timeline was reset Marcus would be out of Power. Marcus was likely a Xenophobe, and was likely insane and happy to see Vulcan go. Again — you’re pushing your own personal biases as fact. You can prove none of that.
I’ve already answered all your questions, you just refuse to consider them. So good luck with that. I’ve given you perfectly legitimate alternatives to your perceptions. You’re hung up on visual canon. I get it. I’ve moved on. You should consider it.
And please do show me where in Star Trek canon they define alternate timeline vs. alternate reality? Again, this is all your personal biases and viewpoints, combined with your own specious reasoning, none of which can be proven by canon.
And again, Star Wars has nothing to do with Star Trek, except in JJ Abrams mind.
Yeah right, I’m pushing my own biases as fact 😂
This from a person who believes that Marcus was a xenophobe and insane, what evidence do you have for him being a xenophobe or insane?
Section 31 and starfleet are both federation oroganizations, not human only.
The federation is not earth alone, is earth in partnership with other worlds.
Why would Marcus be out of power? We do not what position he had in the original timleine of the 09 timeline.
You have not given alternatives to my perceptions, what you have done is the thing you accused me of using personal bias and viewpoints and specious reasoning which cannot be proven be canon and then got shirty about it.
The 09 films are bloody obviously designed to be look like Star Wars, from imperial grey starfleet uniforms on earth, to blue backround warp travel. The 09 film robbed the structure of the first Star Wars film. Hence I keep mentioning how the 09 films are like Star Wars.
I guess you never watched Star Trek did you?
Difffent realities and different timelines are completely different.
If you can’t grasp that look at tng episode parallels, which involved parallel dimensions not timelines.
Traveling through dimensions is time travel, you do understand that right? The mirror universe is not an alternative timeline. The reality that Lazuarus came from in tos was not a difffent timleine but a distinct reality.
If you don’t understand difference the diffence between a different timeline and a different reality, you probably do better learning the different between the two. Then creating wacky silly ideas concepts like visuals are not canon 🤣 Tell that to everything else ever made including all previous Star Trek pre enterprise.
@isabella — OK. I’m done with you. I keep asking you to prove your position by citing canon, which is the basis of Trek. You refuse. Instead you keep pushing your version of events as fact. I’ve given you an alternate perspective as equally valid as yours. I never stated it was the correct one. That said, there is ONLY one fact here — the Kelvin Universe is NOT CANON. You can try to rationalize it any way you want, as fans have done with Trek for years, but that doesn’t make your theories and perceptions, wants and desires, biases and preferences, any more valid than anyone else’s. I won’t engage with you again.
What are you writing about?
I keep on referencing canon, including “visual canon”, your the one who does not.
You indicated that you don’t even understand the difference between a different timeline and a different dimension within Star Trek canon.
When I reference episodes that explain the difference between a different timeline and a different dimension you respond be saying that I have not cited canon. How did I not cite canon?
Your the one who was insisting that the kelvin universe is canon, I never did.
Through this piece I repeated said that there is nothing in the 09 films bar a photo in Star Trek beyond that ties the films to the original shows and films.
Your the one who invented laborious theories about why old Spock did not repair the damage to the timeline nor even try to fix by involving Marcus, not me.
Your the one who attempt used wacky ideas like visuals are not canon, not me.
Your the one who turned Marcus into a xenophobe who was happy to see Vulcan go, not me.
I even said that the bits in the future with old Spock do not show anything that connects to the prime timeline. From the aesthetic of the ships to old Spock’ either disinterest in fixing the timeline or lack of knowledge about how to time travel.
Your the one who did not reference canon. I made reference to actual epsiodes, to actual designs of ships, to things that actually happened on screen. Your the one who did not.
Your the one who is not citing canon. You are the one who is pushing their version of events as fact.
Your projecting your own faults on me.
Nuttin but speculation here……
Looking at the clip, she appears to be joking. So, yeah, it’s pretty inconclusive right now.
More likely she’s signed on to the film. They just signed the director. I would not be shocked if this movie gets released in November next year – say 3 weeks before SW ep 9 to avoid that conflct.
Yeah. It’s also been widely reported that Hemsworth might return.
A few years ago, a story a lot like this one got some fans here convinced that Cumberbatch was playing Gary Mitchell. Urban was just kidding around.
He might return, but that doesn’t mean that it’s because he didn’t die there. I was mostly just reading the tone of the answer and it was cagey. I’m just saying that the information that’s out there, including the probability of Hemsworth returning, leads me to be agnostic about the nature of his return.
Exactly. That’s my point. It’s a comment from an actor — it doesn’t necessarily mean anything and she doesn’t necessarily know anything.
Well also that we were hoping beyond hope that they hadnt actually cast Cumberbatch as Khan.
You good article ignores the simplest explanation – he was next to a massive black hole/wormhole exit.
Therefore the plot device is already there, and while it may not be ideal, it makes more sense than The Nexus or Katras/Protomatter for resurecting Trek characters
Well, what if he’s not playing George Kirk Sr. but George Samuel Kirk, Jim’s brother?
Awww…. I was hoping for Pine with a fake moustache.
Seriously though that’s a good idea.
We need Henry Cavill for that :-)
As long as there are Remans, lots and lots of Remans, so many Remans, it’s all good. #Remans
This idea reminds me of this scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br5umHOm3TM
You know it’s a bit odd, especially with Wang being the moderator, but, if one looks at one of the long shots, perhaps, not too closely, it isn’t that hard to have the impression that one is seeing Jennifer Lien, circa 1996 or ’97, even though she was much younger than Morrison is now.
I suggest this:
If QT does do his movie, and if it does involve George Kirk, then there should be the creation of yet another timeline — one separate from the Prime Trekverse and the Abramsverse.
I say this because:
The modern world no longer is unduly impressed with the technologies depicted in the Prime Trekverse.
I think that the modern world, further, is more enamored of the technologies and scope and scale of the Abramsverse. This is why, precisely, the Enterprise in Trekverse is much larger than any in the Prime Universe.
In my opinion, humble or not, QT should craft a production which is an amalgam of both universes in Trek, which would be a horribly, and deliciously, dangerous and delectable feat that a lot of critics and fans would love and despise.
Trek is more than tech. It is an embracement of the future, of humanity, and of humanity’s ability to craft tech to support itself toward that future.
QT, I hope, gets it. If his movie gets made, I hope it breaks all the barriers that have held back the hopes of Trek’s most ardent admirers — and move Trek cinema, and its universal appeal, even further forward than it has before him.
In my view, Talos IV and the guardian of forever are the keys.
There is the intersectionality between Kirk’s universe, and Pike’s unverse (in a sense), and all the universes and timeline depictions looked at in re: the above.
There is no healing among timelines via Section 31, since Section 31 is itself merely an instantiation of one or a number of timelines.
There are, however, a great many possibilities that lie beyond the belief of any of the characters in Trek….
If I were QT, I would look very closely at all the permutations of Trek that have not been foreclosed. In other words, I would say that no permutations have been forelosed.
A great benefit of science fiction is that we eventually realize in the end that so-called “canon” is bunk.
kirk’s dad would be like 60 right? kirk is in his 30s… his dad was let’s say 25 when he supposedly died… they’re not gonna have hemmsworth’s hotness available to them and then put him under aged makeup.
Good point Tommy. They should get Mel Gibson to play Kirks age appropriate dad.
grandad perhaps
U g h
Much easier to have it be time travel and have Hemsworth play 20-something George than to have him aged to play 60 year old George.
Answer to headline: no, she did not.
She didn’t answer anything.
Or she may have just heard that Hemsworth is in Trek XIV, and is speculating as much as the rest of us.
Yep.
So Kahn was 2. Starfleet officer thought dead but found alive was 3. Time travel movie will be 4. At this rate in 5 Kirk will have a sister, and in six they will save the Klingons. Rinse and repeat. The timeline shift in the first movie was so they wouldn’t be constrained by what came before. But you know anything with JJ involved is either a ripoff or a never ending let down.
Don’t save him. God the best part of Star Trek 09 was that begining scene.
I’m tired of death not meaning death in fiction. Before I get lambasted with a thousand literary and cinematic examples, I know, i’m just tired of it.
Film is escapism. In real life death is irreversible. In Film, we can imagine all possibilities without limit!
Yep, and there’s no reason why Hemsworth couldn’t play George Samuel Kirk.
I imagine how they love J.J. Abrams in Riverside, Iowa, now that James Tiberius Kirk is supposed to have been born in outer space.
Fabio,
Thanks. It will likely not bear fruit, but you have given me an excuse to carefully inspect the scene to see if the shuttle on which he was he was born could be a RIVERSIDE class one named IOWA or vice versa. The game’s afoot!
Well, the filmmakers did move the 1701 shipyards from San Francisco to Riverside, Iowa. So there’s that.
Which made no sense but was, helpfully, a huge coincidence that a young James could gaze at the ship he was destined to captain.
Why does everyone say it’s about time travel when it could be about jumping to the prime or other timeline in what would be its past.
The whole character narrative of Jim Kirk in the Kelvin-verse is that his dad is dead. Which most of thought could have beefed up Pine-Kirk but instead turned him into an overgrown teenager. Whether Hemsworth is put into suspended animation by Klingons, or falls through a wormhole and pops out for Pine’s 35th Birthday, or they age Hemsworth, by choosing to use Kirk’s dad again, they need to really deal with emotional content and not just use it as spin for an action adventure. Otherwise, what is the point?
Personally, I would simply like another good project like Beyond, which was totally stand-alone.
I imagine it would be something like Kirk choosing between wrecking the timeline (and every bad thing that goes with that) but having his dad back or letting his dad die again to do the right thing.
Let’s hope they have something more creative than this – My god, like every bad episode of Dr. Who ever.
Orci hinted at something similar for his Trek 3 script that was rejected.
And that’d be a good reason to reject it, by gar!
Well, the two writers worked on two other stories with Orci. Its possible they took influences from those stories.
That would be a total cheat if the character somehow survived. Honestly it would be pretty lame
I don’t know which story I dislike more. The “George actually survived the crash” story or the “time travel” story. Neither of them work for me. I guess the time travel version would work better considering Hemsworth’s age. But I’m just not a fan of the Kirk’s father story especially when it seems like in the KU Kirk has gotten past those issues. I don’t see a point. Now if a clever writer can make something about it work, then great. But I have my doubts.
@ML31 — either works for an even more poignant story if one of two things: Kirk finally meets his father after being rescued from Klingon captivity, only to lose him again, as George Kirk once again sacrifices himself to save the Enterprise, and now Jim can put the original loss behind him, and become the captain he’s supposed to be. Or, he travels back in time and is forced to make a decision to let his father die again, like Edith Keeler in COTEOF. Those are both good uses of a temporary resurrection.
Why is survival or time travel the only two options? There are a million ways Hemsworth’s Kirk can appear in the film without either of those tropes. Maybe he’ll be in the movie because an alien being with telekinetic powers starts messing with the crew’s mind, and gives Jim what he always wanted: his dad. He gets to meet him in his mind, and he finds a pretty nice little paradise in his head. It can be like the Nexus, a perfect world, hard to pull yourself away from. That sounds way more interesting than time travel or a surprise survival. I want to see a psychological thriller.
It could be a flashback, too. The other ways would be fake or cop outs. The example you cited would be a fake. It’s not REALLY his dad. The two ways I presented are the only ways it could be genuine. I think. Are there others I haven’t considered?
Well let’s see there’s cloning, which I guess would be fake. There’s shapeshifting, although that too would be a “fake”. I dunno tho, while I’m sure there are numerous creative ways they can do it, I’m not a sci-fi writer so I’m not that good at figuring this out lol
oh wait i get it now… George Kirk would be 60 or so if he wasn’t killed but instead held prisoner after his ship was destroyed. but eric bana was a time traveler and could have taken George with him forward in time to older kirk’s timeline when he battles them in the first movie and then Hemmsworth/George would be the correct age without resorting to exrtra time travel… he’d be 10 years older
but yeah, would that take away from the emotional opening of the first film? knowing George isn’t dead?
she most certainly would be like 50-60 years old in trek time where kirk is on his 5 year mission or just after… after beyond…
or maybe morrison is just saying something as a joke because she knows they are bringing him back and has no idea how
If Morrison is also included, its unlikely she’d be aged to 60 years old for the film. I mean, they could do that, but they could also re-cast as her role wasnt big anyway.
If she’s in it, it would likely mean time travel or flash backs (James flashing back to life as a kid or flashing back to the Nero incident) or even shortly beforehand.
Im sure they wont “correct” the time line, but it would be interesting if they did. Its hard with Nimoy having passed because he’d be the perfect one to show up and say “I’ve figured out how to fix everything”.
yeah but there’s not really anything to fix… the prime timeline is still there minding it’s own business… it just bugs angry fanboy… i never understood the anger over the timeline thing… trek has always played with alternate universes and what ifs etc… we’re just spending more time in one than usual.
i think it was a great idea to free things up… the mirror universe for example is just another timeline or universe or whatever… it can exist without interfering with the other… and yes i dont think they are going to go and erase what they’ve created by “fixing” things… they could at some point just recreating multiverses like with worf jumping all over the place…
and if my hypothesis is correct and George is alive and been taken to the future and is the same age as kirk… mama kirk is 60 and would they recast? or age makeup? that always looks bad… both would be great like what you said… flashbacks with her and then recast… a league of their own did that when they cast the older version of the characters… they used older actresses who looked like them… then dubbed in their voices
whatever it is… this is the script JJ was crazy for a few years ago… so there must be something in it that stands out. and i thought shat was gonna be a part of it. and if shat is gonna be in it then there has to be some kind of time travel right? and would it be old kelvin kirk or old prime kirk? ah forget it… i can wait for the trailer
@Tommy – who’s angry?
I do think the fast & loose playing with time travel and new universes adds a layer of confusion that the films dont need if they are to attract a wider audience. And if they DO annoy the fanbase, why do that?
The point of “fixing” the time line in a 4th or 5th film would be to encapsulate the JJ films in an over-arcing narrative that is not presently evident.
tommy,
Re: Forward time travel
Other than the normal unfolding of time, Nero did no forward time traveling. He only time traveled back into the past.
Ambassador Spock tells Kirk in the mind meld “Nero went through first. He was the first to arrive.” which means they had separate time travel trajectories into the past – so there’s no indication the Ambassador did any forward time traveling either.
While there’s no indication in Ambassador Spock’s relating that Nero intended to time travel, we can’t avoid the conclusion that Nero, somehow, is some sort of time travel expert as there’s no way to account for his ability to track the time travel of someone, Ambassador Spock, who didn’t start his journey until after Nero had already started and completed his.
But we must conclude Nero became this expert somewhere over the span of 25 years as that’s the only explanation as for why he didn’t immediately time travel forward 25 years to greet the Ambassador, but, instead, chose to explore Klingon space?
But Nero had no ability to time travel at will, did he? He was sucked into a black hole and probably quite surprised to find himself in the past. He then theorized the time at which Spock would also end up there.
The passage of time between Nero and Spock’s arrival is a bit of a plot hole we’re supposed to ignore but I guess Nero didnt mind being imprisoned by the Klingons until it was time to meet with Spock. (Why the Klingons simply imprisoned him rather then utilize his knowledge and tech of the future is another mystery).
Assuming Nero didnt know why the Red Matter created a black hole that was essentially a worm hole to the past AND alternate universe, he’d not try to again (and if he did, whats to say he’d go forward and not back again?)
Which does beg the question, where did Nero go at the end of the film? Wasnt the black hole he was sucked into another red matter hole? Presumably, he was sent to another universe and time.
TUP,
Re: He then theorized the time at which Spock would also end up there.
People keep forgetting that Orci only claimed to have redefined time travel into the PAST. Even our civilization as it stands now has observed time dilation in the laboratory to allow elementary particles with extremely short lives to travel into a future that they couldn’t possibly “live” to see.
All spaceships in the Federation’s civilization centuries have the ability to achieve relativistic speeds on impulse alone, and therefore have to take care to NOT allow time dilation to cause them to unintentionally travel into their future.
Nero’s ship could have easily, as part of its basic functions, hit a velocity near the speed of light and let their time dilation take them to the same future that Amba$$ador Spock’s time dilation was taking him.
With Chris Hemsworth as George Kirk, Chris Pine as James T, they just need to cast Chris Evans as brother Sam Kirk, and achieve the first-ever casting Chris Trifecta!
And then Chris Pratt can show up as Starlord and be the goofy nemesis. Boom, Hollywood implodes into a black hole, the timeline of film resets itself
Lol solves all continuity & canon issues! Nicely done, Albitrosy!! 😜
Much rather would see Hemsworth and Pine reunited through some psychological alien mind device or something, Kirk gets to experience the what-if of knowing his father without finding some narrative gimmick that explains how he’s actually alive. Like maybe Hemsworth can be in the movie via flashback, or maybe he’s an android duplicate like Stella, created to mess with Kirk. I can think of a ton of ways to get him into the film than been-there-done-that time travel and secret survival. And I’d love to hear what other ideas you have too.
The Star Trek universe is full of Q-type beings who can pull people out of time. In my mind, Jim Kirk will find himself on a planet like Triskellion and discover another longtime competitor is his dad (which can explain his ripped Thor physique!)
Hmmm, Q could tempt him. But they’d need an entire film out of that premise. I dont think hemsworth maintains his Thor physique all the time.
Casting Trelane could be fun (and confirming he’s actually a Q).
Actually, if given the choice of a strained, improbable plot of George Kirk somehow surviving the Narada attack and the strained, improbable, overdone and boring choice of seeing yet another time travel story in Star Trek, I vote for the former. Of course, given the terrible choices TPTB are making regarding STAR TREK–both on the small and big screen–they’ll choose time travel again. Oh, dear….