Nicholas Meyer, director of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, was one of the more high-profile Trek veterans brought in to help develop Star Trek: Discovery. In a new interview, Meyer talks about his time working on the show and gives a status update on the other show he hopes will be the next Star Trek series to be announced.
Still waiting on Ceti Alpha V
Speaking to TrekMovie in the summer of 2017, Nicholas Meyer first revealed that he was working on a Star Trek project outside of Discovery, and in May of this year he gave more details, saying it was a 3-episode limited series but was on hold at the time. Subsequently, CBS announced plans to expand the Star Trek TV franchise, with Variety reporting that a limited series tied to Khan Noonien Singh was one of the possible shows under consideration. In the months since then, CBS has announced an ongoing series featuring Patrick Stewart returning to the role of Jean-Luc Picard and an animated sci-fi comedy called Star Trek: Lower Decks.
So far there has been no official word on whether Meyer’s Khan series is moving forward. At San Diego Comic-Con, Alex Kurtzman, who is in charge of the expanding Star Trek universe on TV, spoke to TrekMovie positively about both the idea of a Khan series and a Picard series (which hadn’t been announced at the time), saying “I mean, they sound super cool, I’m a huge fan of both stories, it’d be really cool to see something like that.”
Now, in a lengthy, career-spanning interview with the YouTube channel Midnight’s Edge, Meyer has provided a new update on the show, including confirming the name for the series:
“I was commissioned to write a 3-hour or 3-night event, and that’s what I did. It’s called Ceti Alpha V and I don’t know the current status. It’s been up in the air. Partially, there was a lot of confusion between CBS, and there were big upheavals at CBS and while they sort of didn’t know who was in charge, they also didn’t know what they were going to do with Ceti Alpha V. I’m not exactly sure what’s happened, I haven’t heard from them in some time.”
Ceti Alpha V is the planet were Khan and his genetically augmented followers were exiled in the Star Trek: The Original Series episode “Space Seed,” and where he was found years later in Meyer’s film Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Presumably, the trilogy would tell the story of Khan’s time in between TOS and Star Trek II.
It’s not clear what “confusion” and “upheavals” at CBS Meyer is referring to, but previously he has noted that one hurdle for the series is the ongoing corporate politics between CBS and Viacom’s Paramount, who own the Star Trek film library, including Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.
In the new interview, Meyer gave his assessment of the series, but also noted another possible hurdle, saying:
“It’s very good. It’s a terrific trilogy. I think one of the things that happened is they’re not sure that a trilogy is long enough to warrant the cost of doing it. Maybe it should be something longer, or … I don’t know the details of their thinking, because I haven’t heard them.”
While both the Picard series and Star Trek: Lower Decks are planned as ongoing series, CBS has confirmed that they are also considering limited series as well. The recently reported (but not confirmed) “Section 31” series featuring Michelle Yeoh would be a good candidate for a limited series. That being said, only three episodes for Star Trek: Ceti Alpha V could possibly be too limited for CBS, considering such a project likely involves considerable expense and extensive location shooting.
For what it is worth, over the summer CBS trademarked the title Star Trek: Ceti Alpha V, along with a number of other possible titles for potential series, including the previously announced Star Trek: Lower Decks. CBS has also trademarked a number of other possible Star Trek titles that could be used for series, including Star Trek: Destiny, Star Trek: Reliant, and Star Trek: Starfleet Academy. However, applying for a trademark should not be seen as confirmation that CBS is moving forward with any given project, and it is possible some of the trademarks are different possibilities for the same project under consideration, such as the Picard series, which has yet to get a title.
Moving on from Discovery
As previously noted, Meyer was credited as a consulting producer for the first season of Star Trek: Discovery. He confirmed he is not involved with the upcoming second season, saying:
“I was involved with it for the first year, and I worked on it, I wrote things on it, and then I was not invited for the second year. I don’t know why.”
News of Meyer’s involvement first came in February 2016, and he was one of original showrunner Bryan Fuller’s first hires for the show. While Fuller had at one point stated that Meyer was involved in writing the second hour of the show’s two-episode pilot, Gretchen J. Berg and Aaron Harberts (who replaced Fuller as co-showrunners two months later) ended up writing the final version of the episode.
While credited in every episode as a consulting producer, Meyer didn’t have writing credit on any of the first season’s fifteen episodes. Later in the interview, Meyer noted that his involvement in the show had “more or less ended” by the time the show premiered in the fall of 2017.
As for his contribution to the show, he was sanguine, telling Midnight’s Edge:
“I was brought on to it by Bryan Fuller, who was the original showrunner. I had never worked on a television series before and thought that would be an interesting thing to do, as indeed it was. What my contributions to it were hard to determine, because television is a group effort and there is so much overlap that I can’t either claim or refute credit for the end result because the difference between what is written and gets filmed and what was talked about in conference before things are written is very, very hard to determine with what you would call meaningful or objective precision.”
Regarding Bryan Fuller’s exit from the show in October 2016, Meyer said that he was “not privy to what went on,” but cited Fuller’s split attention between Discovery and American Gods as a possible issue. While it has been widely reported that Fuller was fired after clashing with CBS executives, Meyer said he didn’t feel it was appropriate “to peddle unsubstantiated gossip that I wasn’t privy to.”
Colorful metaphors on Discovery were inevitable
Meyer was also asked about how Discovery broke new ground in terms of the use of profanity during its first season, in context to how his script for Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home used the term “colorful metaphors” to describe the language the TOS crew encountered when traveling back in time to 1980s San Francisco.
“All art is ineluctably the product of the time in which it was created … The fact that a streaming service doesn’t have to conform to the same censor limitations that a network broadcast has to adhere to; the fact that we are in an age in which cuss words are proliferating and part of normal speech increasingly – leaves very little room for the notion that a new Star Trek created in these conditions was not going to also have colorful metaphors running around. But that seems to just come with the territory. I am trying to remember if at some point when we were creating it if at some point we were using that language or did that come later? My best recollection – and it is entirely fallible – is that it didn’t trouble me at the time, and I didn’t think of Star Trek IV, it just didn’t occur to me.”
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I Khan handle a limited series. I vouldn’t vant a regular series – they vould have to title it Survivor: Ceti Alpha V….For a regular series Chekhov on Reliant or Sulu in command of Excelsior would be of more interest.
While I love Discovery I say maybe a focus for new Star trek shows should be like the upcoming Picard show. Lets head into the 25th century before we piss off Star trek fans again :)
Aye! Make it so! :)
I don’t really want to see Khan: The Lost Years. Khan is a villain, not a hero, and it’s his job to give our heroes someone meaningful to overcome. “Space Seed” gave me all the backstory on Khan that I need or want.
Yeah, even though I like a lot of what they’ve done with Discovery, a Khan based prequel, like the proposed Section 31 series, leaves me a little skeptical. All that said, I (like many) really like Michelle Yeoh so just like I am willing to be open minded about that possible series, I guess a short Ceti Alpha V series might work. I hope they can prove me wrong on both counts, if those projects get off the ground.
I like Michelle Yeoh and her Prime character. Her mirror character I have no interest in seeing any more of, and therefore I have no interest in watching her in a Section 31 series. I am really skeptical of the show if they are talking about including her as main cast?
I’m not real excited about a Khan series either, I’d rather they focus their efforts elsewhere, looks like they are which I think is for the best. The Khan backstory is best suited for a book vs. trying to recast Khan. Look how Into the Darkness went..
The Eugenics Wars novel was pretty good though.
The Eugenics Wars novels were great, as was the follow-up – which covered Khan’s life on Ceti Alpha V. Hopefully they’d get Greg Cox in for some input.
I’m with you, Corylea.
Will probably watch it out of idle curiosity but that’s about it.
Idle curiosity is why I would watch the upcoming Picard show, too. It’s not something I’m excited about at all. But then, I was excited when I first heard Discovery was happening. And then…
If I was running a corner convenience store where the lack of communication and consistency approached that of CBS, I would fire everyone. Astounding lack of respect and consideration…
Apparently that is the norm in the business of show
More than you know, sadly. We frequently joke that it’s amazing that any show or feature makes it out the door.
They don’t seem to care unless it’s something that infringes on their property.
I wasn’t even supposed to work today!
A miniseries about Khan’s time on Ceti Alpha 5???
I KHAN-t believe they’re even considering it!
I’m glad they are at least considering it.
While I’m not sure just how interesting the concept is…I’m glad that something other than a show set on a starship is being considered. The Star Trek universe is a big place and there’s much unexplored territory. The surface has barely been scratched.
They aren’t, Harry. He’s just talking, like Michael Dorn and his ‘Space Commander Worf” series. Neither will see the light of day, outside of these fan pages.
Except that CBS actually hired Meyer to script the Khan series, whether they actually choose to go ahead with it or not. Not the same thing as Dorn’s Worf series obsession at all, aside from the fact that neither will likely get made.
If they MUST do a Khan prequel miniseries, I think I’d rather see his escape from Earth, what with the fall of his dictatorship and so on. Might be interesting.
I like that idea. A Eugenics Wars series would be cool.
It could even be a full series.
It seems far more achievable than something set on Ceti. It could be shot in some of Toronto/Vancouver’s more futuristic buildings on a reasonable budget. If done right, that is a backstory that would rivet a sizeable viewership!
1990. Earth is wracked by war, waged by genetic supermen….
The 90’s had their moments, but even with all the chatter about the blue stained dress I think I would have remember the Eugenics Wars.
Shh! They took place in Secret Laboratories
The 1990s was an era where the hyperintelligent supermen and computer AIs fought their World Wars on a virtual playing field with the Armenian penalties.
As I recall, it has been a conspiracy theory since my youth, decades ago, that there’s no such thing as “random” mass killings, murders, etc.
Armenian? That’s supposed to be “Eminarian”.
True, but the Star Trek universe isn’t our reality–it’s another reality entirely, in which war happened in 1990. For proof, look no further than Star Trek IV, when the cast of Star Trek were walking around San Francisco in Star Trek outfits, but no one was running up to them for autographs. Since the Star Trek TV show doesn’t exist in that reality, it’s not ours.
I think people will have to accept the closer we get to bigger Star Trek events, that it will just have to be seen as an alternative universe. I’m sure at the time when they came up with the Khan story no one writing it thought Star Trek would even be remembered by then much less a very thriving universe of multiple shows and films when the 90s showed up. Now we are close to 2020 and so much of what we saw from Past Tense in DS9 (which takes place in 2024) to First Contact in 2063 and ALL the craziness that was predicted to happen between them including a third war world will (hopefully) never happen.
Of course I believe in time people will become more progressive and technology will naturally evolve but its clearly not at the rate Trek predicted because AFAIK we don’t have the ability to create genetically altered supermen today. People say a lot of what we see in things in TOS and TNG we already surpassed but it’s low hanging fruit stuff like computers and communication. The vast majority presented on those shows we still are centuries from achieving if ever; including warp drive which is now within people’s lifetimes if they were born today according to the show.
just one gene can do everything that the eugenic supermen display as traits.
PEPCK-Cmus mice are genetically modified mice (Mus musculus) which as a result of their modification have up to 100 times the concentration of the PEPCK-C enzyme in their muscles, compared to ordinary mice.
They were created by a team of American scientists led by Richard Hanson, professor of biochemistry at Case Western Reserve University at Cleveland, Ohio, to gain a greater understanding of the PEPCK-C enzyme, which is present mainly in the liver and kidneys.
Professor Hanson noted that PEPCK-Cmus mice, dubbed “the mighty mice”, “are metabolically similar to Lance Armstrong biking up the Pyrenees. They utilize mainly fatty acids for energy and produce very little lactic acid. Without eating or drinking, they can run for four or five hours. They are 10 times more active than ordinary mice in their home cage. They also live longer – up to three years of age – and are reproductively active for almost three years. In short, they are remarkable animals.” However, “they eat twice as much as control mice, but they are half the weight, and are very aggressive. Why this is the case, we are not really sure.”
“AFAIK we don’t have the ability to create genetically altered supermen today. ”
That’s what a lot of people think steroids to for baseball players.
Maybe, but I don’t think most fans like to dwell on it being an alternate universe. And I doubt that CBS would care to bankroll a miniseries that emphasizes it takes place in an alternate universe, which may be why they’ve apparently decided to shelve this project.
Good point Michael!
Re: AFAIK we don’t have the ability to create genetically altered supermen today.
That’s only because Dr. He only accidentally admitted to creating two superWOMEN tots:
Chinese Scientist Who Says He Edited Babies’ Genes Defends His Work:
I think most would consider two babies genetically altered to be immune to HIV to possess a superpower yet to emerge evolutionarily in the natural population?
And just as with the fictional scientists who applied their fictional science in developing Khan, Dr. He has absolutely no idea what other unanticipated changes may be evoked by his meddling.
Disagreed. The reality of ST is largely fluctuant, and the notion that it all conforms to a single canon is myth. ST is in fact reinterpreted every time it gets made, and numerous adventures are never mentioned again just because they create too many problems for the franchise’s current fictional parameters.
Every ST wants to be as accessible as possible to general audiences, even at the expense of any previous ST that could not be. And every ST’s “utopian” vision of the future requires that the world of “now” remain always a tangible point within its constantly-updating continuity. Ie, we could still get there from here (even though with climate change I’m now fairly positive we definitely won’t).
The EW both did and didn’t happen, depending on which version of ST happens to be spinning in your DVD player right now. ‘Encounter and Farpoint’ and First Contact for example both place TNG in a world in which some completely different future war between East and West happened instead. And even THAT depiction seems out of touch or quaint compared to a modern-day understanding of the conflicts in our world.
Khan has been largely without a past ever since the earliest drafts of TVH were scripted (his people would be alive and causing international tensions by 1986, make no mistake). Which is why revisiting him in further movies and miniseries is generally not a very good idea.
Totally agreed, on all points. Even in 1982, the laughter in the theater when Khan describes his exile in 1996 was palpable.
Can’t speak for where you saw that movie but I went to see it perhaps 5 times back in ’82 and not once was there even the hint at a chuckle or a feeling that the line was not taken seriously. In fact, each and every time you could cut the tension with a knife.
Audiences really are different everywhere, all the time. I can tell you that opening night on ALIEN, there was hysterical laughter during the chestburster once they showed that closeup of it, and that by the third day of TWOK being out, when I caught it for the second time, there was a whole row of guys laughing and cackling all through Spock’s death scene, thinking it was just corny beyond belief.
I do have to admit that these seemingly odd reactions may be endemic to San Jose, because I don’t recall those kinds of reactions in SoCal or Oregon, but SJ was also one of the major test markets for pre-release stuff (proximity to ILM was part of it, and to Skywalker Sound for many not vfx films), so there was SOMETHING to that market that was germane for studios to consider their responses. I remember going to a sneak of THE NUDE BOMB (which was much longer than the theatrical cut, with alot more about Agent 22’s private life) and the response was very favorable, and yet as the credits scrolled, I heard the Century theater guy come up to one of the producers on the other side of the velvet rope and say, ‘thank you for letting me see this in advance — and there’s no way we’re going to book this!’ So even though the audience seemed to give off a ‘yes’ vibe, it still wasn’t enough to intrigue the theater guy, who was probably borne out given the film’s eventual non-performance.
My viewings of STII were at the Aptos twin and at the Century 22. (I very much miss the 21 and 22) So thanks for the local call out! I do recall a chuckle when Spock got up off the floor and tugged his shirt down before turning to face Kirk. I must admit, I found that a little distracting. Not sure if that was Nimoy thinking it’s something Spock would do, if he did it just to stay comfortable or if Meyer suggested it. But it was distracting at the time. When I watch it these days, I tend to ignore it.
If you get hold of Asherman’s MAKING OF ST 2 it has some good interviews, including a pretty comprehensive one with Nimoy. The tug was all his idea — that Spock felt he needed to present himself properly to his commanding officer this one last time — and he thought the little laugh it gets was an uncomfortable one, which to him meant it worked. He also talks about how Meyer wanted a trickle of green blood on his hand, but when time came to shoot the scene, the makeup guy just walked up and pancaked green powder all over his hand, so they ducked that potential bit of melodrama by just giving up on it.
I have some good memories of those Century theaters, but I always found the projection levels to be very dim. I remember seeing ST 5 at 22 or wherever it opened, and then I saw it at the late lamented Palo Alto Square, and it was like the difference between VHS and laserdisc — the screen ratio was right, and it was brighter and sharper by far. Same sort of thing happened with TMP – after it left the Centurys, it would up at Campbell’s Plaza theater, and I thought at first I was seeing a different print, because everything was so much brighter. I’m still not sure if maybe there were some prints that went out ‘light’ because Vulcan was almost luminous! At the time, there was a story that Wise ordered the film printed down to hide matte lines, but in retrospect I don’t think they’d have had the time to do that, but I often made a point of seeing films at the Plaza, even though it was usually a second run house (maybe they had union projectionists? dunno.) I saw LOST HIGHWAY there and it never looked that good on homevid in any format, and I re-saw THE FLY and ALIENS there (one of the best double-bills of all time imo) and both looked pretty terrific. Left San Jose in 98 and only visited there briefly in 2001, but caught MOULIN ROUGE at the Plaza for old times’ sake, and it looked pretty good.
Other theater I loved in late 70s was CINEMA 150, a 70mm house on El Camino. Saw 2001 there 4 or 5 times, and opening night CLOSE ENCOUNTERS is still probably the best filmgoing experience of my life. Really sad when that place went away.
You had a better eye for that sort of thing than I did back then. I was a teenager watching those films and I loved the 21 & 22 because it was a HUGE screen. We lived in Santa Cruz but for the big features we always headed over the hill to the Century. The screen at the 21 and the center 22 were bigger than the local IMAX screens of today. I think I’ll stop here before I further sound like the old man who thinks today’s stuff isn’t as great as the old stuff. ;)
Listen to that old man, old man! Remember about respecting elders, even as the finger bones creak while I key this in
How about when Voyager went back in time to the mid 90’s. Didn’t look like anything regarding a war to me. Or was the US not involved in the eugenics wars at all? There wasn’t even any mention of it anywhere.
And just think, it could drag on for as long as The Walking Dead, because that’s just how dystopic it would be …
Last thing we need in these dark times.
When you say “dark times” are you referring to today? How are these “dark times”?
That seems way more interesting!
@Gotcha — it might well be.
Part 1: the rise of Khan and the Eugenics Wars,
Part 2: the Fall and exodus, discovery by Enterprise, exile to Ceti Alpha
Part 3: Survival on Ceti, and discovery by the Reliant
The whole thing could be told from the future, tying in Starfleet and linking to a new unrelated series.
I’d watch that.
Yes that is how I would did it also
That is actually more interesting to me, too. But let’s be honest. Khan’s backstory, however brief, was plenty enough to provide for a decent episode and one really good movie. I don’t see any real reason to dive into Khan’s past more than we already have. It is feeling a little like Solo. It might be fun, but how much more do we need to know abut these guys?
Yeah, honestly the most interesting thing about Khan to me was his hatred of Kirk and his blind intent for revenge of his wife’s death (back before revenge stories were overused, imo). But once his being the foil for Kirk was over and he was defeated, that was enough of him for me. Until STID unwisely brought him back (cough) and made a big wreck of it. Now I could truly care less.
….and I don’t know its current status. That’s your non-update, in seven words. Coincidently, that’s also the status update of Trek 14. Not coming soon to a theater near you.
He’s talking about all of this after the fact. He even said he haven’t heard from anyone about it. You would think with ALL the Star Trek projects currently happening or in talks someone would’ve called him to at least consider it now.
There still might be a Khan show (ugh) on the table but I doubt Meyer will have anything to do with it if it’s true.
I am not that interested in a Khan mini-series. However, I would be fascinated to see what Nick Meyer wrote. He’s a good writer. Recasting Khan would be quite the minefield though.
I really wish they would just let Khan go. I mean, the first three Kelvin timeline movies were nothing but reworkings on Wrath of Khan. Come on: “Dude with grudge against the Federation attacks and destroys/damages the Enterprise”. That’s the plot for the first three movies. It’s all Wrath of Khan. They should move on. The awe and wonder of “going where no one has gone before” has been absent from Star Trek for quite a while. I hope they bring it back.
The TNG films, all four of them, were no less guilty of being re-workings on The Wrath of Khan.
I would say for Nemesis, yes, but the others they varied a bit more. But the Kelvin movies all had the EXACT same theme, ie, a guy who felt he was wronged and wanted revenge of the Federation for it. Nero, Khan and Krall had the same tired motive. That’s why few people are missing these movies, they seen it three times already.
You can’t say that about Soran or the Borg. Soran didn’t want to hurt anyone in fact. The Federation had nothing to do with his plans, they just got involved after the attack on the station was discovered. The Borg are just massive dicks. ;) I guess Insurrection you can kind of claim that since it was a personal gripe at least, but not aimed at anyone in Starfleet and the Son’a weren’t trying to destroy anyone, just take the planet for themselves.
I disagree with that.
Soran didn’t want revenge, he simply wanted to be immortal.
The Borg didn’t want revenge, they simply wanted to assimilate humanity at its most vulnerable.
The Son’a didn’t want revenge, they wanted to de-age themselves and live for hundreds of years as young people.
Now, Shinzon DID want revenge for what he felt humanity did to him because of his supposed illegitimate conception.
All the movies in question have an “obsessed madman” who doesn’t care who he hurts/sacrifices to achieve his goals and is (usually) two-dimensionally evil (“revenge” cannot be the sole qualifying factor, as too many ST fans seem to assert).
It’s also proven that one can write a single generic logline which applies to all four TNG films (Though in all fairness the editorial in which this was cited predates even first Kelvin Trek movie, and now I can’t find it).
Soran has a secret weapon that can destroy whole star systems. He abducts an Enterprise crewman and tortures him to extract information. His minions inflict irreparable damage to the ship, eventually destroying it. He also catches Picard in the middle of an existential midlife crisis that too closely echoes Kirk’s, and later we find Kirk STILL having same crisis. One captain sacrifices himself, and Picard beams away rejuvenated. Moore and Braga watched all TOS movies and admitted they looked at The Wrath of Khan closely. Imitation factor 4/5.
Ru’afo has a weapon that can irradiate an entire biosphere. He DEFINITELY wants “revenge”, because he bluntly shoots down any less violent alternative whenever possible. Cooperation sickens him, justification sickens him, patience sickens him. Working with the Federation sickens him — which means employing the holoship (or even bothering to transplant the Baku in the first place) most likely sickened him. He dies an action movie death and Picard beams away rejuvenated. TWOK imitation factor 3/5 (It’s a stretch, but no more so than Beyond). INS also shamelessly borrowed the TUC tagline for its poster… which then obediently disappeared from all newer-print TUC posters in order to hide the fact.
First Contact… at least inverts the established formula in that this time it’s Picard who’s obsessive beyond caring who he sacrifices. This is largely a Act Two peculiarity, with very brief foreshadowing in Act One that is usually dismissed instead as a mere plot contrivance. However Picard also begins quoting Melville, which should’ve been a red flag to any duo screenwriting team who had just screened Wrath of Khan in preparation for Generations two years earlier. And in true Berman Trek fashion Picard has to EXPLAIN the reference for ST fans who don’t read actual literature (no Nick Meyer subtlety here). FC gets away with this because it knows its 1996 audience is mostly general viewers, casual TNG fans and Berman Trek fans. Hardcore fans like it because it’s “dark” and utopian at the same time, and more casual TNG fans like it because Picard strips down to his chest. But as ST’s first action movie it was also accused by same fans of being “big and dumb” long before the Kelvin Trek films ever were. At the end Picard’s officers show no concern that half the E crew are now DEAD along with the Borq queen. TWOK imitation factor 3/5… for exploiting a REALLY obvious literary reference that was already taken by a prior ST movie.
Nemesis is just an awful movie. “Dark”, violent, boring, long and tone-deaf. I hold it more accountable for its “Khan” transgressions than Into Darkness, which at least acknowledges itself as part remake. Into Darkness is also just a(n exceedingly) better movie. Both films get TWOK imitation factors of 5/5 though.
Star Trek’s TWOK imitation factor 4/5. Nero has a weapon, destroys celestial bodies of any composition, uses parasites to inflict torture, and wants Spock to share his suffering. He’s also a relatively minor character as villains go, and he gets away with being underdeveloped (as does Christopher Lloyd in The Search for Spock, or any “origin story” MCU villain).
Beyond’s TWOK imitation factor 3/5, on the concession that I wouldn’t let First Contact walk away unscathed. Krall can’t even decide who he is or what he wants, and he doesn’t have a background until most of the way through Act Three. He has a weapon, and either feeds off people or kills them for demonstration. He also inflicts irreparable damage to the ship. But if Beyond were a TNG film it would be Insurrection — basically a TV episode.
I don’t go along with the mandatory “Everyone hates Obama, don’t we wink wink” reaction to JJ Abrams that says his produced Treks are somehow alone in being big and dumb action movies. Nor do I acknowledge the 2009 one as dumb.
No offense but so much of this just feels like a stretch and a huge rant. These ‘examples’ are nothing like what we saw in the Kelvin films where the villain made it his mission to take on the Federation because they felt Starfleet was responsible for their predicament. I like the Kelvin movies but they could’ve been a bit more diverse in the villein motive department. STID literally gave us the ending to TWOK with the reversal of Kirk and Spock. Nemesis pretty much did that as well but not at the level you literally got the same set up and lines from that film. But make no mistake I still like STID more than Nemesis although yes that film also had tons of problems but was at least entertaining IMO.
And no one said everyone hated the Abrams movies. I don’t. But yes others do. I don’t think its a consensus one way or the other, but its clearly a divided fanbase on them but as long as you enjoy them that’s all that matters.
The Borg collective, perhaps. But the Queen certainly seemed to want her pound of Picard’s flesh for doing what was supposed to be impossible and futile.
I’ll watch any Trek Nicholas Meyer writes. It could be Kirk and Spock playing ping-pong for 3 hours. I’d watch it.
Seeing how he was unceremoniously ousted from Discovery the issue seems to be not everyone running Trek seems to want that.
That, unfortunately, seems to be the truth.
There was an article posted early on he was suppose to write the second episode of the season when he was hired. Once that didn’t happen or any story credit all season it seem clear he either got down graded or his story rejected. I thought a lot of the show would be driven by him, so it was sad to realize none of it was in the end.
His writing on episode two got completely revised as you note. The bottom line seems to be that he left Discovery when Fuller did and went off to write his Khan project.
Well the article itself stated he stayed on through first season. Fuller left before anyone was even cast. And it sounded like he was fired, he didn’t quit, or why would he be surprised he wasn’t asked back for the second season? It doesn’t sound like it had anything to do with the Khan project.
I personally take everything Meyer says with a grain of salt. In his bravado he reminds me of Shatner but without Shatner’s charm.
True, odradek, but at least Meyer writes his own books, unlike Shatner!
Until an oral history of Discovery is written someday we may never know what actually happened behind the scenes in the first season. It sounds like Meyer got sidelined. Whatever scripts he was working on got reworked or dropped, as he was not credited on any Discovery episodes as a writer.
I really hope we get another Chaos on the Bridge type of documentary about this show. It may not be as bad as what early TNG went through but considering they are already on their third show runner by season two my guess is its still pretty bad. When Joe Menosky left after one season for someone who had been with Trek for over a decade before and made over 100 episodes to go to the Orville gives you a clue things must have been bad.
I have a feeling that the behind the scenes stuff with STD is WAY worse than anything that went on with TNG. With all the staff turnover and given the quality of the final product, it all adds up.
Actual Discovery facts.
The best first season in the entire Trek franchise. Less staff turnover than season 1 TNG. A coherent, consistent, plan for the series story arc which no other Trek series ever had.
I’m sorry… I thought facts weren’t subjective. Silly me.
One of the worst first seasons, massive turnover at the highest levels once you get into s2 (though you’d figure they’d’ve been ousted before that given the results), and an arc because that is what the times demand, not out of any overreaching dramatic need for same, especially considering the incompetence demonstrating in executing said arc (and every other story point in the series, which squandered the occasional good idea like the lead being responsible for a disaster and having to work to atone for it, something that the writers needed to reread — or just read — LORD JIM before going forward with.)
Actual Discovery Facts according to….you.
Calling Discovery the best first season is not a ‘fact’. It’s simply an opinion. Seriously.
He did write the second episode. And got rewritten by Harberts & Berg.
For the first writer on a project to not get first screen credit, they have to be MASSIVELY rewritten, and to get no credit at all, they pretty much have had a train run over every word of their writing. That’s bias toward ‘first in’ is why John Logan has an Oscar for a film he finished working on seven years before it came out, and after his work was rewritten by I don’t know how many others. So I think Meyer’s work may have been outright ‘killed’ since he to the best of my knowledge got no credit for it.
Do we need any more proof that they have no intention to make a GOOD Star Trek? :P
It could still be good but it wouldn’t be original or innovative, that’s for sure. Just more nostalgia.
The irony is when they announce something truly original, fans will cry “THAT’S NOT STAR TREK!”
Let’s wait and see if that ever happens. It didn’t happen with DS9 so I have my doubts.
Not only did that happen with DS9, and every other Trek show after TOS, it has never failed to happen in this franchise. Your claim otherwise is either monumental ignorance or flat lying.
Every show had it’s share of detractors. But overall, the loudest were with TNG. (before the KU films and STD) But even they weren’t all that relevant. About all DS9 got was concern a show set on a stationary space station would work. Beyond that, it was totally accepted as Star Trek.
And please… Lose the attitude.
DS9 was flat-out rejected by a significant number of fans. There were TNG fans who wouldn’t watch it, there were ST fans in general who wouldn’t watch it. Even towards the end of DS9’s run you’d meet people who admitted to being TNG/VOY fans but rejected DS9. Sci-Fi Universe mag famously published an article entitled “Deep and Confused” in the early fall of ’94, which pissed off a lot of DS9 fans.
There is ONE Star Trek that did not have an immediate fan backlash, and that was Voyager. VOY actually had to earn its backlash over time, and earn it it most definitely did. But any TNG fan who was open to another spin-off AT ALL, yet had rejected DS9, at least initially embraced VOY. The famous Nielsen ratings graph though shows that VOY frequently scored lower than DS9 even when not accounting for the two-year gap between both shows, so at least in the larger picture there is some accounting for taste.
However I’ve always found it rather telling that ST *seemed* to be largely accepted by fans when it was arguably at its weakest creatively speaking.
What you said of DS9, Sam could also be said to TNG. But at a greater extent. By the time the 2nd spin off was out, the tumult over Trek 80 years from Kirk and Spock died down considerably. Sure, DS9 had some. But it was mostly over how a stationary space station set show would work. Voyager got flack, surprisingly so, for having a female captain and for some goofball reason how she wore her hair became a huge issue. The only flack Enterprise got was pretty much “ANOTHER Star Trek show?” The thing is, TNG had to earn it’s fans. The bulk were not convinced a Trek without Kirk and Spock would work.
They ARE making good Star Trek. You’re just not much of a Trek fan. You’re only here to complain.
^ Warning. Take it easy on the “who’s a true fan” kind of stuff.
Something tells me the wider public wouldn’t watch it!
That’s what CBS is hoping for. As I’m one of those folks who believes The Undiscovered Country has aged badly, I would not watch three hours of Nick Meyer produced programming of Kirk and Spock playing ping pong.
I still love The Undiscovered Country. My only regret is that they cut the ping pong scene from the final version.
Okay, I’ll bite. What ping pong scene? I know of some stuff that they cut for money (Enterprise ducking into asteroid belt to sneak to rure penthe, the ‘over the hill gang rides again’ individual intros to the main cast), but have no idea what ping pong you reference.
At the risk of speaking for someone else… I took it as a joke. A clever one at that as it references the above ‘ping pong’ comment.
serves me right for not reading the post above that one, sorry. It did make me wish for the shots of the pingpong table on the DISCOVERY turning up someday though …
The DISCOVERY in 2001 is what I’m referencing here.
Yes, that was a reference to three hours of ping pong at the top of the thread. It is a sad statement on material being presented in theaters these days, that Robert Downy Jr. could sit there and read the phone book for two hours in the Iron Man costume, and Disney/Marvel would still sell a billion dollars worth of tickets…
I wonder why didn’t things go better for Meyer on Discovery? He was hired around the same time Kirsten Beyer was hired. He was the big icon of the franchise and she was only known by people who read her Voyager novels. And now he’s basically out of the franchise completely while she created and now running the Picard show along with writing for Discovery. There is a bigger story in there somewhere.
As for the Khan idea, I was against it since I heard about it but now knowing it was just going to be a 3 hour mini-series that probably would’ve been fine. And I can imagine there would be a lot of flash back to the Eugenics war, especially for newbies. I probably would’ve watched that but in all honesty Khan had his time. They gave him a second life in STID and we saw how well that played out. The Khan mini-series might have been great but it really an example of why some prequels feel like filler. I just don’t need a story citing things we already know, just in more detail.
Meyer said himself that he had never done a TV show. Maybe his way of working just didn’t fit with the rest of the writers room. Remember that Discovery is very serialized which means that each episode’s writer has to “compromise” to fit into the overall narrative
Yes but he act like its some kind of mystery why he was fired. If that was the case, seem like he would’ve just said that. And Beyer never worked on a TV show either (or a script of any kind) and she looks like she adapted well, very well. She’s working on two shows and is over seeing the novels as well. It could just be he didn’t have a knack for serial TV but it does seem like more than that. I have a feeling a lot of his ideas just weren’t gelling.
Wasn’t Meyer involved in the Time After Time TV show that was on ABC for about a month earlier this year?
I think Meyer was just unwilling to compromise his ideas and vision of the show to the other show-runners. He and Fuller saw eye to eye but I don’t think the same was true for the replacement show-runners. I think this might also be one of the reasons why the writing in the first season was so uneven.
This is probably closer to the truth. He’s not saying it but it was clear when Fuller was around they had a much closer vision of what the show was and that probably got jettisoned when the new show runners took over and his ideas were relegated. But he still stayed, so clearly he wanted to be part of the show but I’m guessing they either didn’t like the direction he wanted to go or that his ideas weren’t gelling with theirs. You don’t take the guy who is famous for writing three of some of the best Star Trek films to reduce him to a consultant title unless they didn’t see eye to eye or his writing wasn’t up to par. And I refuse to believe it’s the latter, although possible.
unless they didn’t see eye to eye
LOL Tiger, maybe Meyer has turned into Harlan Ellison in his old age
Meyer and Ellison got into it over issues relating to colorization at one point. Meyer and DGA were trying to get the WGA involved in the issue to oppose it, and Ellison, if i remember this right, felt that as a writer director Meyer should have had writer interests in mind for a lot of other matters, and that it seemed pretty self serving to come begging for a coalition when it was for an issue that mainly benefited directors.
Meyer has always been a bit of a hothead, so it isn’t a matter of him having “turned into” anything, anyway. Read his interviews in ENTERPRISE INCIDENTS in the mid 80s, or his CFQ interview at the time of TWOK, or especially his comments about GR and Saavik, and that’s obvious. Not saying he wasn’t entitled to those views, just pointing out that like Ellison, Meyer was a smart guy and a writer with a healthy sense of ego. I don’t think Meyer is anywhere near Ellison is terms of writing quality or diversity, but I absolutly loved his CONFESSIONS OF A HOMING PIGEON and most of what he did with TWOK, and also even liked his book about the making of LOVE STORY, so he had a window of extreme creativity that was very impressive. I don’t think it sustained, so in that way he was definitely no Ellison, but that doesn’t take away from the good work.
Ousting Meyer is a big shame and waste, but entirely not surprising given the airheads in charge of the franchise (especially the Harperts clique). An intellectual and pensive writer like him must have felt like the only adult in the room regarding the silly season one of Discovery, so his material not being considered and himself booted again is not at all surprising. If only he could be recruited for the Picard show, what a match!
Since the same people running Picard show is running DIS, sadly I don’t see that happening either. I’m not placing blame on anyone, we obviously don’t know the story but I do think there were a LOT of changes when Fuller left. The basic premise probably stayed the same but the individual stories and direction probably changed a lot. And to be fair about it, the change could’ve been for the better. We assume FUller had the better idea but if we’re ALSO being honest he was the one who mandated the show look as different as it does which hasn’t made many fans happy so who knows?
Either way it would’ve been nice to hear what someone like Meyer would’ve brought to the table if he had more clout.
I’m actually shocked no one from the Orville has snatched him up yet lol, but give it time. ;)
I also heard that all the MU story elements were Fuller’s as well.
@vulcan, you’re just speculating, but I get that vibe from him as well. He’s always had a touch of “why am I working with these idiots” come across in his interviews even 20 years ago. And the recently fired Discovery show-runners were idiots to an extreme,
Yes, I don’t think he meshed well with Hollywood. In some area where he could have complete creative control he’d do better.
And just imagine all the great authors we would hear quotations from: Melville, Shakespeare, Conan Doyle …
This is an interesting observation which I see more and more in general public as well, not just in the entertainment sector. We seem to be living in an age where intellectualism is starting to take a back seat to being mundane. I still remember how many jobs I couldn’t get because the bosses though I was too overqualified for the job with my masters degree. I think they are basically trying to make Star Trek for the current generation which doesn’t seem to appreciate “intellectualism” as much as previous generations, and in this kind of “modern” Trek, unfortunately there seem to be no place for people like Meyer. I am suprised they even got a guy like Michael Chabon for the new Picard show. This is the only reason why I am optimistic about it, because finally I think we can see some more intelligent Trek stories.
I miss those type of stories in Star Trek too. I’m not suggesting people writing for Discovery now are too dumb or anything but it seem obvious they strayed away from the more complex stories the other shows would do. But it could be no other reason than it was a war story line. Maybe next season we will get those type of stories again. I really hope so.
If what some are theorizing… That Meyer was complicit with Fuller’s ideas and wants for the show, then it was probably good that he was not brought back. The more I hear of the goings on in season 1 the more it looks like the bulk of the mistakes were Fuller’s doing.
I dunno… might be fun to see how/why Ceti Alpha VI blows up. Um, planets don’t usually do that, CA6, Krypton, Alderaan, etc not withstanding. How does Khan meet the eels? Does Marla McGivers die in episode two or three? How do they go from surplus Native American wigs to mullets? So many questions to be answered…
And what of the Botany Bay? Perhaps an episode that’s a 10 time lapse of it rusting and degrading!
It’s all in the genetic programming. Blondish mullets are an adaptation to the desert. I was a dachshund for “Space Seed,” in fact.
And how did Khan get hold of a platinum blonde Doris Day wig from the 1960s?
How did they grow those impressive man pecs in such confined quarters? Can’t imagine the roids held out that long…
They could just adapt Greg Cox’s novel To Reign In Hell which is pretty much the same story as what Meyer apparently was working towards.
Personally, while I liked TWoK, I don’t think it’s the best Trek movie nor do I think it deserves all the fawning praise it receives and it’s kind of disappointing that TWoK became the template for so many of the later movies.
It has some pretty major plot holes; for example how can an advanced starship mistake one planet for another or not scan the debris of a destroyed planet?.
The new cast members have a habit of overshadowing the established ones (why does Saavik keep getting the con over Sulu, who is obviously a senior officer?).
I can’t say I was thrilled by the more militaristic approach to Starfleet that Meyer instituted.
I also think it was unfortunate that in order for TWoK to exist, the hope and optimism from the end of the original show had to be killed off (the episode was after all called “Space Seed” for a reason).
There are plot holes, yes. But the overall themes and emotions of the film overshadow all that. It’s why when the movie is good, plot holes are less of a problem. Just look at Discovery. The reason it is getting dissected to death is because the show overall just didn’t have the heart. Not the heart that WoK had.
I’m curious… What did you think was the best Trek movie? WoK is what I think. Followed by TUC.
I’ve been able to derive some level of enjoyment from every TOS cast movie but my favorite is still Star Trek: The Motion Picture and it’s the one that has held up the best for me.
Yes, it had a troubled production and it is in many ways an imperfect film.
On the other hand I love the look of the movie (it really is the only TOS cast movie that looks like a major motion picture and the production design is still my favorite). I watched it again recently and it is still visually impressive to me.
It strongly adheres to Roddenberry’s non-violent and hopeful take on the future where we don’t solve our problems by blowing them up. The crew instead actually helps V’Ger reach a new level of being.
I also really liked the arcs of Kirk and Spock as well as the themes of belonging that the movie explores, often subtly but still there. Kirk is flawed and he makes mistakes but still fights to find his way back to the leader that he was. Spock looks lost and unsure of his place until his fateful mind-meld and then despite the physical and mental trauma he is positively rejuvenated and finally at peace with who he is.
I liked that the relationships were strained and awkward at the start and that these characters had to find their way back to who they were and that their relationships with one another took time to get back to a recognizable place. By the end of the movie, it really felt earned to me.
Nicely put. I really like TMP for all those reasons too.
I liked it for many of those reasons myself. Was never a fan of the TMP Starfleet uniforms, however. But the Enterprise never looked better and it was a very Trek story. But IMHO the problems were large enough to make the film not as good as it could have been. My biggest complaint is I find I have to FF through the bulk of the V’Ger flyover sequences. They drag the film down more than they should have.
Since seeing TMP on widescreen laserdisc, I have been able to turn off my usual viewing expectations for TMP, and let it wash over me at its own rate w/o feeling like the movie has stopped dead, even though it really does do so a couple of times.
I’ve actually put the DVD and BR in to just watch the cloud and vger flyover and entry into the interior (skipping the bridge probe, which still looks terrible to me, probably owing to the rephotography.) And the number of times I’ve watched the drydock sequence by now has to be four figures. But being able to just groove to all of TMP is my preference now, unlike the way I will ‘highlights reel’ a lot of Bond pictures. TMP’s character stuff and the exploration all has this dry ‘procedural’ feel that doesn’t feel TOS/TREK to me at all, but it isn’t quite ludicrous like DRAGNET — it’s its own thing, and probably the biggest Wise factor in the show, for me at least (and I’m not a big Wise fan, owing to AMBERSONS — I only really like DAY THE EARTH a ton, and like ANDROMEDA and HINDENBERG, but am not a fan of most Wise studio pictures.)
Watching TMP … It’s kind of like being able to go with the flow on many David Lynch pictures (though as much as I love most of them — and every blessed frame of TWIN PEAKS — there are a few that don’t work for me at all, even after repeat tries.)
Nick Meyer is one of Star Trek’s greatest writers and directors, and I’d gladly see him doing more Star Trek. But a Khan series is just not something I see working. Khan is not remotely as interesting a character as these writers seem to think he is. Kirk has met him three times, and three times this supposed superman has been defeated.
I wouldn’t blame Khan for being defeated by Kirk.
You see, back in his time, Khan WAS a superman. But that was 300 years ago. The humankind evolved since then, became bigger, stronger, more clever. And Kirk is the best among the best – that’s why he was chosen to command one of most advanced ships of the fleet.
It’s not that much of a stretch, really. Humans evolve faster than we tend to think. Consider Napoleon: for a long time, we thought that he was a tiny, with his stature being just a bit over five feet. Eventually though, it turned out that it was an average height back in his times. If anything, he was slightly *taller* than many of his contemporaries.
In 23rd century, Khan is no longer a super-man. He’s above-average-man, maybe – but so is Kirk.
Actually, once we started making tools to change the environment, man stopped evolving physically. We may live longer, but that is more due to science than evolution. If man is going to evolve with respect to empathy and having a greater sense of humanity and ethics — a very big if — then that still wouldn’t offset the physical discrepancy between Khan and Kirk, anymore than a weird plastic wrench or control rod should be able to take out the genetically engineered dude (that resolution always plays a little pat.)
Also your argument doesn’t seem to reflect McGiver in the slightest either. Either she is a dedicated submissive (a possibility, certainly) or she can’t tell that your 23rd century Kirk is evolved beyond Khan in the way you describe — which suggests a certain blindness that should have kept her from Starfleet duty at the very least.
I’ve never seen Kirk as super-anything — which is why I find him so compelling, nearly as much as I do McCoy, my fave TREK character. I take it back — Kirk in the movies is often verging on being a superprick and a serious downer (he is a serious grind in parts of TVH), but I don’t think that is the superbeing you’re describing either.
That’s not true about evolution. Man hasn’t stopped evolving physically just because we’ve altered our environment. Man continues to evolve, and in one recent example there’s evidence that head sizes are increasing. Why, how could this be? Well, we invented a procedure called the C section, and suddenly mankind’s cranial size is no longer restricted by the birth canal. So babies with previously fatally large heads are now surviving and passing on their genes. This isn’t even considering the radical changes to our diet that come with its own set of adaptations in our increasingly diverse population. So worry not, evolution continues apace as always, for man as much as any other species. In fact, humanity’s presence on this planet is now so dominant that we are the primary driver of evolution: every living thing on Earth is responding to the sweeping changes we’ve made in this planet and how it operates with us around.
Midnight’s Edge? Seriously? Aren’t they the home of sensationalist nonsense? They pop up in my YouTube app from time to time, always filled with doom and gloom.
Yes they are. As much as it pained us, they got a good interview with Meyer, so we decided to write it up :-/
I think this was their bid at appearing legitimate. Interestingly enough, this interview debunked one of their alleged claims that he was working on a replacement for Discovery.
No it doesn’t. That was supposed to be the Khan series.
Greg, they claimed that Discovery was cancelled after 3 episodes aired, and would be replaced by Meyer’s series in place of a second season; but Meyer states here it was never going to be a series at all, just a 3-episode mini, and was never intended to be anything but a standalone one-off release, and not a replacement for anything.
Likewise, Picard is not replacing Discovery, which was renewed for a second season. Midnight’s Edge was determined to prove DSC was a failure and due for cancellation, used any rumor to support their position, and hoped they could spin comments from a Meyer interview to prove their idiotic fiction.
And people like you somehow fall for it.
Afterburn, I think you are my new friend!
Exactly. They were hoping Meyer would corroborate their made-up nonsense, but instead made them look like the fools they are, fabricating conspiratorial nonsense.
They are the Alex Jones of pop culture.
ME speaks Truth to CBS’ Power.
They speak their version of the truth.
If ME ever speaks truth about anything its accidental. They have less credibility than Alex Jones.
ME speaks nonsense to people who want their bias against CBS confirmed.
Yes and it’s very clear from this interview they were trying to steer Meyer to say things that would support their views and he very clearly didn’t say what they were hoping he would.
Would much rather done an interview with trekmovie, or perhaps an outlet with no bias at all. They didn’t exactly ask any compelling questions and no good info or anecdotes were really revealed here, because ME had an agenda, and it wasn’t to inform the audience or provide good content to them.
Knowing ME and their agenda I suspect they employed as much “creative editing” as they could to this interview in any case.
Even edited as it is, it doesn’t make them look good. But folks like them are constantly moving the goalposts. I don’t follow them but I have no doubt they will claim that the plan they said was in place to cancel DSC changed, rather than just admit they made it all up.
Well, they seem to have pegged why Trek 14 is in development purgatory now, too. All the happy chatter here about first quarter 2019 production has completely evaporated. No movie in 2020, and if they don’t get their issues squared away in the second half of 2019, 2021 isn’t looking so hot, either.
Oh yeah, what was ME’s made up reason for that?
Yeah I think unless they get it together and start filming by late Spring/Early summer the chances of a film coming out by 2020 will be zip to none. And Chris Hemsworth just signed on for another movie for Netflix. That guy definitely isn’t waiting around.
Because of Chris Pine, they cannot make a Star Trek film without Captain Kirk. Wonder Woman 1984 will be out before they get the ball rolling on the next star trek if it is not just canceled outright.
No, this is square in Paramounts lap. Pine and Hemsworth are clearly not having issues finding work, so if the studio isn’t going to pay their current talent what they agreed to, it’s on them to decide how they want to move forward.
CBS should be called the Continues Back Stories Network. They have lost all sense of origionality. Nothing new. lets rehash the past. Gene Roddenberry Said lets Boldly Go Foward. Well the Picard Show is a small step forward. Lets really jump foward 200 years and tell some great stories again, and make new cannon. Then Discovery, would or whatever the new series whould have been called, would be fresh and exciting. It’s time To Boldly Go Again!!!
I think they feel nostalgia is what will drive people to watch. Sadly that’s all it appears to be in a lot of franchises (look at the new Fantastic Beasts movie, it’s nothing but an excuse to throw in more Harry Potter lore and fan service). I’m excited about DIS next season but I do feel it’s just going to be a season of fan service tie ins as well.
I’m super excited about the Picard show because we are going forward again and not back at least but I really have a sneaky suspicion it’s going to be a redux of TNG, just with new characters. I’m not bothered by that but I do hope they do something more original. But then they wouldn’t be bringing Picard back at all. But at least it will be something new and not just complete filler a Khan show would only be.
New Star Trek, new Hawaii Five-O, new Magnum P.I. I’m not sure what you’re referring to…
I’m just hoping for a reboot of Major Dad! Surely only a matter of time
Karl… Probably not, but there has been talk of a reboot of The Nanny.
Think I heard about that Thorny. But bring back Major Dad. And Blossom. Surely a Family Ties: The Next Generation too! 😜
You forgot new MacGyver. We also got reboot Murphy Brown and are getting reboot Picard.
If you want originality why are you watching the SIXTH spin-off of a 50+ year old franchise? You and others seem to want to have it both ways, and are looking for a very narrow slice of what you personally consider “original.”
Yes but a Khan show is as unoriginal and uninspired as possible. It’s about a character we know everything about and that you can’t expand on any major way.
And I think the OP is saying they want original premises with new characters like TNG and DS9. I love DS9 BECAUSE it was so different and unique from anything we ever saw from Trek and nothing has been that bold since. That said I haven’t been that harsh about any of the shows we know that is coming or rumored. We’ll have to wait and see what exactly the Picard show is but most are clearly excited about it because they are finally going forward again. Lower Decks looks like it can be something really intriguing or a complete train wreck but it is different. Section 31 is at least original in how Trek is usually presented so I’m open minded about it if it happens but people do seem really against the idea because of what they stand for. But I think that can be a really good show if done right.
And I would take all of those happily over a boring Khan show. It may still happen but Meyer’s version does sound pretty dead.
” It’s about a character we know everything about and that you can’t expand on any major way.”
I disagree. We only saw him in TWO episodes (I don’t count ID), and it would be very interesting to see another side of him, where he is the protaganist, and get a chance to really see his point of view, rather than simply the villain side.
And believe me, I get what the OP is saying. But they have a very narrow definition of original. We can go back and forth on this, but I will maintain that all of these spinoffs are just slightly tweaked versions of TOS, which itself wasn’t exactly original. TNG was just an updated version of it, let’s ve honest.
Yes but based on those two episodes we already knows what happens in his life. We know he tries to take over the planet in the Eugenics war, ultimately loses and ends up cryofroze in space for several centuries, picked up by Kirk, tries to take over the ship until he loses that and is marooned on Ceti Alpha V until the events of TWOK when he takes on Kirk again and ultimately dies.
Yes we may get another side of him but as far as his story, we know it. Certainly they can expand on the details but we know where its all going. I don’t need to learn how is wife died on the planet or how he got a scar. I just don’t care to be honest.
And of course the shows are tweeked versions of TOS, that’s what Star Trek is. BUT the beauty of the concept is you can do a lot of original things with the premise and characters. That’s why I love Star Trek, they can go a different way if they choose. And to be honest IF we didn’t know about Khan that would be an example. Unfortunately it’s a character whose life story has been told countless times in other mediums and you can’t change much. It feels like its being done more for nostalgia sake instead of expanding the universe like TNG, DS9 and VOY did. Build new characters and concepts. What would be ‘new’ here? This just feels like its going backwards to a lot of people and why so many are against it.
Actually now thinking about this, a good example of what the Khan show would ultimately be is the film Solo. That speaks directly to these kinds of prequels and that while they CAN be good and tell you a different side of the character, end of the day it still feels like you are making a movie just to highlight the iconic elements of the character. The film actually tells an original story on its own but its shaped around all of the background stuff we know about him like how he got the MF, beating the Kessel Run, meeting Chewbacca etc, etc.
That was the problem, the movie was so busy trying to stick every single past reference about the character it felt more like a fan fic than an actual story. I don’t know why studios now have it in their head fans want these type of nostalgia trip stories? Yes you can certainly expand on popular characters and stories but not to the point it feels like its just checking off a list or provide an endless amount of connections. And while I think Solo WAS a good film, it wasn’t a necessary one either and partly why it did so poorly. It just wasn’t needed and fans knew that.
And if they make a Khan show, my fear is they will go exactly down the same route. A lot of forced references and ‘secret’ connections (did you know Khan had a secret daughter who married someone named David Archer whose family would go on to become the pioneers of early Starfleet–well you know now ;)).
And with the team leading Trek now I can see all the unneeded possibilities.
Knowing a rough timeline of events in his life is not the same as knowing everything about him. Otherwise, why ever make a movie out of a historical or public figure?
An historical figure is a real person that you learn real things about. That’s apples and oranges to keep going to the well of a one note fictional character just to get fans to tune in.
End of the day no one seems that excited about a Khan show for a reason, including you. Why is that? Because there is so much more they can be doing with this franchise instead of filling in stuff that’s already happened. And it’s just probably going to be references and connections for fan service. I explained that in my Solo reference. Maybe if Khan was actually still alive in the universe that may give people more interest. But since we know how he died before living a boring existence on an uninhabited planet I just can’t give myself a reason why I would want an entire show around that? Can I learn something new about Khan, sure. Will I care, no.
No, that’s not apples and oranges at all. They are both characters in these stories. There is an opportunity to delve into the character beyond just telling the audience that he did this at that point in his life.
As for excitement, that has nothing to do with it. The reason I’M personally not excited is that I don’t like TOS and connections to TOS. Frankly, Khan is a boring character– it’ll be their job to make him interesting, and I think a 3-episode mini is a great way to do that if they want to.
But my lack of interest in TOS is also why I don’t give two flying F***S about Pike showing up. Spock, on the other hand… I like him because he is a fascinating character that we know quite a bit about… and yet I would LOVE to see a Spock series about his adventures on the Enterprise before TOS.
Same for Picard. We know EVERYTHING about his life AND his character, yet we’re all excited to see more of him because he’s a great character. Nobody was excited about him in 1987, because they didn’t know much about him beyond his studio written biography. It was the episodes that made him interesting and fleshed him out.
The more I think about this, the more I want to see a Khan show, now. Because I want them to flesh him out, and make me care about him.
BRING IT ON, MEYER. PROVE THESE YOKELS WRONG.
Khan is just a fictional character. He didn’t exist in real life, it’s just a writer making it up as they go. It’s not the same as understanding who JFK or Fred Mercury was. Yes its apples and oranges.
Of course if you are interested in learning more about Khan, that’s fine. Obviously he’s a big part of Trek, the issue is Trek is a huge franchise that can go any direction now. Just to revert back to boring nostalgia just feels unnecessary when they can do SO MUCH more in this universe. Think outside of the box. You can only do one direction with Khan because we know his track as a character UNLESS you reboot Trek and give him a different direction which they did in STID but we know how that went.
And people are excited about Picard because the writers can literally do whatever they want with him. If they want to make him Captain again, fine. If they want him teaching at Starflfeet, fine. If he’s married being a stay at home dad, I might watch that too lol. The point is his story is WIDE open. Khan’s isn’t. I even said IF Khan wasn’t dead then it can something different. But you can only do so much and end of the day we know where it will lead. We won’t with Picard. That’s the difference.
FYI, Meyer made it clear its not happening so he can’t prove the ‘yokels’ wrong. Its not to say a Khan project won’t happen though but I highly doubt he will be involved.
When a franchise has created a playground of endless galaxies, universes, and timelines, there’s A LOT of room to be original. Even after 50 years.
This is the point so many of us make. You have a premise that can go literally anywhere and can exist in any time period it wants past the 21st century. Star Trek isn’t a period piece, you can practically do anything you want with it.
And the fact that they are reducing all of this potential creativity to a one note villain whose story has already been told and was killed off 30+ years ago really speaks to the limited ideas of how they view Star Trek.
Hopefully in time they will think bigger and not just nostalgia to get people to watch. But I do have more hope in the future if we get more forward thinking stories like Calypso in the future. That at least proves there are plenty of writers who want to really expand the franchise and think beyond tired fan service when given the chance.
Exactly, I agree with you fully. It seems as though when people have big universes to play in (like Marvel or Star Wars) they only want to box themselves in certain parts of those universes and don’t want to look at the bigger picture. With creativity you can make any concept work. Hell, I’d even watch a show about lifeforms living in the transporter beam if the writers can have the creativity to make a show like that.
Sadly its just writers with no real imagination or afraid to really push the envelope into anything new creatively. We have to remember Discovery at least feels like something different but that was only because of Fuller and of course he even relied on TOS as a stepping stone but at least DIS can stand on its own if they wanted it to. Sadly they decided next season they don’t with all the fan pandering. But they can do something completely different in season 3 I’m assuming.
Of course this Khan idea is already DOA so hopefully it will stay that way but as I said if its just a three hour miniseries I would certainly watch it. But if it was an actual show then it would be a huge disappointment this is what they are using their resources on, especially since most fans seem so against the idea.
It may not be just the writers. Studios are wanting to make money with the ever rising costs of production. The more money they pour into projects, the less likely they are going to want to take risks. Especially in the case of Marvel. The exact same formula is being used in movie after movie yet they still make tons of cash. Why mess with that?
Oh yeah I agree and I usually include CBS themselves, I just didn’t think about it. But I have said many times I believe the only reason why we are even getting Pike and Spock next season is because they probably demanded to tie it in more with TOS in the first place. Obviously I can’t prove that but it certainly feels like that’s what happened,
And I think that’s probably going to be the direction going forward and why we have Picard (and probably many TNG era characters) coming back and a possible Section 31 show starring Yeoh. My guess if we do get the Academy show that too will have a familiar character leading it. I have no way but I’m convinced its Sulu lol.
Funny… I could totally see Bashir leading an Academy show. Perhaps even Tuvok. This is based on the characters. Not if the actors would even do it.
And I think we are seeing Pike and Spock as a direct knee jerk reaction to the low subscriber numbers that season one produced. I’m guessing they are way lower than CBS ever thought. And setting the show in that time frame was done just for this sort of situation.
This is what happens when hardly no one is watching. And lets face it, AA already had stiff competition, it’s clearly going to get stiffer now that Disney+ is coming and actually sounds like a real streaming site with tons of new movies and shows.
So while I think they are going overboard with the fan pandering I can’t really blame them either. But its also why I feel every new show going forward will have a tie in of some kind although Lower Decks may not, but that’s a cartoon so that’s not as necessary I guess.
I agree. Khan was a one note bad guy used in what most feel was the best Trek movie. That ended up being a bit if a curse. Many Hollywood folks think that movie was well received for all the wrong reasons. It wasn’t Khan why it was well received. That character could have been 100% made up or been nearly anyone. Yet here are people thinking, “we need to have Khan or a Khan-like villain for a Trek movie to work”. Why was Khan in STID? Because of WOK. No other reason. Why are we getting so many ‘revenge’ bad guys in Trek? I think a lot of it can be traced back to Khan. If Search for Spock had been as well received as WoK maybe we would be getting more play of Kruge back stories?
Someone doesn’t understand how franchises work. Minus 1.
Someone doesn’t understand Star Trek isn’t like other franchises. Because it was set up to be that way from the beginning. Read the original series outline. It goes into painstaking detail about how expansive this universe can be.
Nostalgia sells. Trek is a fifty year old franchise. CBS would not be making it if people would not buy it.
Not necessarily the case. Plus, Trek on CBSAA is a slightly different animal and does not really comply with the “would not be making it if people would not buy it” concept. There are other, bigger, forces at work here.
No there are not. If CBS was not making money the show would be done, period. These people answer to a Board of Directors and Shareholders, not to mention these imaginary shenanigans you’re going on about are illegal and that gets the SEC in the mix.
If that were true then CBS would have packed away the entire concept of CBSAA many months ago. What “imaginary shenanigans” are you referring to? Their subscriber totals have been officially reported. Nothing imaginary going on there. Beyond those numbers everything else I spoken about has been pure speculation. Just like all of us here do when speaking of such things. Including yourself.
Surprise! It’s not a Khan limited series. It’s a John Harrison limited series.
I see what you did there……
So, the Sludge has amazed me by doing something worthwhile! The irony is that the interview debunked one of their alleged claims.
I also get the feeling they wanted him to criticize the use of profanity.
Not just criticize it, but I really got the sense they wanted him to blame CBS, and say it was on orders from the top to make the show violent and vulgar. But that clearly wasn’t the case, and at least to some degree he seems to be applauding streaming’s ability to tell stories without content restriction.
I liked his response, too. It was kinda like, “Eh, that’s what the kids listen to these days!”
I get the feeling that they wanted more out of that interview than they got. However, the fact they got it at all will lend them a smidgen of credibility now.
GoT hangs heavy over Disc, ‘section 31’ and now this spin off.
they want anti heroes now.
That’s the funny thing about all this, right? GoT wasn’t popular because no one is the “good” guy, it became popular because of how different it was. Now everyone wants to be like GoT instead of embracing the differences.
Think about Deadpool and Logan. 2016 was a big year for rated R comic book movies, not because of they’re rating, but that they treated their source material with such respect. 2 years later, Venom comes out, and is just a shameless cash-grab. Sony thought we wanted more violence, when we wanted a good representation of the character.
They’re happy it made money, but that’s a path of diminishing returns.
Not sure if a Ceti Alpha V show is a good idea, unless it was even better than Greg Cox’s excellent novel “To Reign in Hell”.
However, expanding on Gotcha and Curious Cadet’s comments upthread, a full-length series about Khan and the Eugenics Wars could be *very* interesting, as I’ve suggested before.
There’s an easy solution to the “1996 problem”: Show (or hint about) Section 31 agents from the future meddling in late 20th and early 21st century geopolitics, so that Khan is born decades later than “the first time” and the Eugenics Wars are merged with World War Three. Motive? A united Earth and (subsequently) the Federation can’t exist without global nuclear war happening first. Why change history at all? To pre-emptively plant the seeds for a more hardline Federation that would be better equipped to handle external threats.
The show can connect all this in to real-life world events since 2001. Indicate that Section 31 has been involved in deliberately inciting some of the worst elements on all sides. You could even hint they have a hand in what appears to be the simultaneous co-ordinated rise of hardline extremists and strongmen across the world right now.
Things continue to escalate during the next few decades, and eventually the “augmented tyrants” take over (as a backlash, in Khan’s case). There are lots of very timely subjects the show could explore.
And Khan himself may figure out what’s really happening — hence his wariness about Starfleet and the Federation in “Space Seed” — but exploits the situation to try to create a “united Earth” under his own rule, while simultaneously attempting to prevent nuclear war.
Casting? Ideally the Indian actor Hrithik Roshan as Khan. Short clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBLVb1eL_xk. Longer interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsObYH9TkQo&feature=player_embedded
Priyanka Chopra would be good as the ill-fated Mrs Khan too.
And if the story really does involve the Eugenics Wars merging with WW3, there are great options for the role of Colonel Green, the main villain. Think Peter Weller, Jon Hamm, Bryan Cranston, or even Bruce Greenwood.
CBS have even recently trademarked the title “Star Trek: Revolution”. That would be a perfect name for this show.
Here’s a bonus fun fact: Khan’s turban in the photo from TWOK heading this article? That’s actually an old-style Sikh turban that was very commonly worn by Sikh warriors well into the 1800s.
Interesting – including the eye protection, or no?
“including the eye protection, or no?”
“Ceti Alpha V” would be a series that begins when Kirk exiles Khan, and ends when he escapes on Reliant (where he and his remaining followers will all die), with the explosion that “lays waste” to the planet somewhere in between. The fact that Kirk would be stuck in Khan’s craw for 15 years and not appear in the show, and that we know “everybody dies,” makes this a difficult one to stomach as an addition to Star Trek lore. His history on Earth and subsequent exile would be an interesting take, perhaps moreso than his life with Marla and folks on CA V. Frankly, just do Gary 7, please.
Yes, with Isis in cat and human form prominently featured as his co-star! Plenty of opportunity for commentary on contemporary Earth. Or going to other planets, as I believe Gary Seven was meant troubleshoot all over the galaxy.
Yes, this. If they really want to do a series about an undeveloped character, Gary Seven and “Assignment Earth” is the one.
AJinMoscow — did Khan die on the Reliant? We saw how the Genesis planet resurrected Spock after all … And there was some time between the last we saw Khan and the detonation. Anything could have happened. Maybe he beamed on board the Enterprise and hidout in the confusion after Spock’s death, escaping somewhere along the way. Maybe he went back to Ceti Alpha V to regroup thinking it would be the last place they would think to look for him. Maybe he commandeered a ship and called it the Ceti Alpha V.
If it is about the time period you suggest, then maybe they do intend to bring shatner back to voice some CGI appearance. But I don’t really think Kirk is necessary. They could pretty much do it the way they did ROGUE ONE by having Khan see the arrival of two environmental suited figures to tie it into TWOK which they then offer as the 4th “episode” of the mini series.
I once read that TNG considered a script that considered bringing back Khan to face the Enterprise-D crew. The rationale was presumably that he was resurrected alongside Spock.
Between the possible Section 31 show and the possible Khan show, I would choose to watch….neither. Thank God for the Picard show, at least that shows some inkling of originality and moving the franchise forward. And Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
Yep, there’s nothing like reviving an old character in his late 70s to show how progressive Trek is. You are praising what you just criticised.
Exactly. This is the problem with fans who don’t know what they want.
It all depends on the execution of the new show, which we have yet to see.
ding ding ding! We have a winner! Thank you.
Yes, Gary 8.5. We don’t know what we are going to get. If it is just more of a TNG-ish perfect Picard, then we are looking at a snoozer of a series. If something interesting is going on… That is something else. I would like to see something new and different myself. That said, I’d rather see something derivative of what came before but GOOD than new and different but bad.
Gotta love the ageism in this comment — the assumption that someone in his 70s can’t be “progressive” or forward-thinking.
Zero ageism when you realize the point of what he’s saying. Seems to have whizzed over your head.
Funny, since Lee didn’t seem to get my point to begin with. The Picard show is the only one proposed thus far that is pushing our timeline forward, as opposed to dwelling in prequel/backstory land. It just happens to have a lead in his 70’s, which there is nothing wrong with. C’mon, people. Let’s focus here.
I think that’s the sole reason the Picard show has had the most fanfare while the others have been mixed at best because most fans just don’t want backstories like Khan, they want to see the universe expanded again. Of course having Picard is a huge plus and the chance to have TNG characters again but I think you can get rid of Picard and most people would still be just as excited about the prospect. I certainly would. But Picard brings a lot of attention the show obviously wouldn’t have without him.
I disagree. They could set a 20 year post Nemesis show without Picard and it would not have gotten anywhere near the press involving Stewart got them. The buzz was ALL about Stewart. Not the time frame.
Well in term of media hype, sure, it only got the attention because Picard was coming back. They don’t care about the time period. I’m talking about the fan base in general though and that many been wanting to go forward again and just excited its not another prequel.
OK. I agree that much of the fanbase does indeed wish to go forward or fill in unexplored gaps. Like the 80 years between TOS and TNG, for example. I don’t see that a prequel material myself in the slightest. But I guess I can see how a TNG fan would see it that way…
We don’t know when the Lower Decks show is set yet. My guess is TNG or forward of that sometime.
I don’t know. A Picard show has the potential to be fraught with fan service. I’ll watch it, of course. But I’m hoping it will be an imperfect Picard struggling with something. He was most interesting in First Contact. And largely boring the entire run of TNG. The difference? In FC he showed that he was actually human and not a perfect robot even Nomad would leave alone.
No thanks. Despite being my screen name namesake skip the Khan ideas.
I love all things Star Trek and thank the powers that be for the efforts made to keep it alive and relevant.
I hate Star Trek ‘fans’ though.
I love Nicholas Meyer Trek, easily the best Trek out there – Horatio Hornblower/ Wagon Train to the Stars Trek – that I would easily pay just to see it. I think he actually had a script before and Paramount was considering doing a movie once upon a time?
I give this ZERO chance of happening. The Khan mini series thing.
You’ve got STD passing itself off as Prime when it’s being made under the JJ/Bad Robot license and you wonder what “confusion” is taking place? SMH…
Discovery is not being made under JJ/Bad Robot, since Bad Robot’s deal is with Paramount for motion pictures to be exhibited in cinemas. How hard is it to understand? Discovery is a CBS production, and CBS OWNS Star Trek. There’s no license involved.
Furthermore Bad Robot doesn’t have a license. Paramount does, who in turn use Bad Robot as a production company to make the product for them.
I’d like to see a return of Tin Man… I think delving into interesting and unknown creatures is as interesting as time travel
Absolute waste of time and a waste of Nick Meyer’s talents getting him to revisit a well worn story that’s already known. Some people seem to pigeon hole Meyer into being some kind of “Khan Specialist”, he’s not, he’s just a damned good writer and an excellent director. Let’s get him to work on something that’s new, or if it’s not new then it’s something that he hasn’t worked on before on Trek.
Which is exactly why I was excited to see him on Discovery. I wanted to see what he could do with completely new characters and situations while developing a new arc in the process. Sadly it didn’t work out I guess.
I’m not really interested in a Star Trek show without Starfleet.
Wow, I’ve been dying for that myself, ever since TSFS. Wanted the gang to go rogue and stay rogue, so we didn’t have to deal with the expense of showing San Fran and the big Mushroom every time, and they could get right to the story.
Yeah, I remember how you felt about the “stealing the enterprise” business in TSFS, and while I love that part of the film too, I can’t see the purpose, value or validity of any ST film or series without it being built upon the foundational structure of Starfleet.
long time no hear! Happy birthday and all that, and right back at me too.
Right back atcha, for sure! Tried emailing you, no luck. Hope all is well with you and yours!
If you ask the moderators here for my email, they should supply it … they did for another poster recently (it’s okay this time too, mods.)
How about my own email: my username here followed by films(at)outlook(dot)com
Great I’ll send you something soon. Was streaming SPACE RAIDERS last week, and thinking of you and our zero budget flicks all the way through.
My brother has wanted a show following a Romulan ship for more than 20 years.
Romulans would be far more interesting than more Klingons (if done right, ala TOS, TNG, and even NEM). How about a new(er) timeline where there were/are/will be NO effin’ Klingons? Yep, that’s the ticket. ;)
Trek is being Star War’s’d into the ground.
CetiAlpha 5 would be like the equivalent of Rogue 1
Which was awful but made a billion dollars and seems to have made a lot of fans happy, so hard to blame CBS if that’s what they’re thinking.
If it happens we should be so lucky. Rogue 1 was the best Star Wars movie since the Original three.
The only Khan series they should be developing is a retro future 1990s set Eugenics Wars series. Any thing else I have less than zero interest in. Wrath of Khan is fantastic obviously, but we need to move on from it. We also need to get out of Star Trek’s past unless we’re exploring the Eugenics Wars or World War III.
All ideas are at the mercy of execution. An idea that sounds bad, trite, or unoriginal on paper can, if done well, be quite enjoyable. While i’m certainly not itching to watch a Khan show, i’m open to accepting one if it’s done really well.
How well a story is told almost always trumps “originality” for me.
Plenty of derivative unoriginal concepts have become excellent entertainment. Indiana Jones is as unoriginal idea as has ever been done. The Matrix was a tired concept to anyone who followed science fiction literature. Some of the best movies of all time have been adaptations (The Godfather), true stories (Schindler’s List), or remakes (The Departed), not to mention classic archetypal stories that have been done many times before (Apocalypse Now).
It’s all about execution, and the little things that make it unique and make it special.
Exactly right, Afterburn.
The key to a really good prequel, whether it’s based on real life or fiction (or a mixture of both), is to include new stuff that greatly expands the established narrative. Even better if it includes twists or depictions of characters that radically change the audience’s perspectives on what they already knew happened “afterwards”.
Rogue One is the most obvious example. The brilliant Black Sails is another one. And, of course, what I’ve described above is literally what is being planned for the Game of Thrones prequels.
A Khan prequel can have the same slant, especially if the Eugenics Wars are merged with World War 3. I’ve given an example upthread of how this can easily be done. Since WW3 in Trek canon lasts from 2026-2053, the show could include all kinds of extrapolated contemporary geopolitical issues.
Khan and the other augmented tyrants could be shown as rising to power in the late 2040s (easiest to depict) — or they could be involved right from the beginning of WW3, if they’re portrayed as ageing much more slowly than normal humans because of genetic engineering.
An interesting option would be to show Khan as leading a popular revolution in his part of the world and seizing power as a *backlash* to the global situation going to hell between 2018 and the 2040s. Add a “Section 31 meddling from the future” angle (either implicitly or as a major story theme) and it gives further nuance to Khan’s motives. More? Depict the story of his eventual overthrow as being a lot darker and more ambiguous than simply “the people rose up” (eg. Section 31 collaborating with their 21st century predecessors?).
Hubcap Dave, I’m right there with you. There was a lot of new and original stuff in STD. But it was done very very badly. I’ll take unoriginal but good over original but bad any day of the week.
Please, please, Please!! I have been a fan since 1972 at age 7. I have seen everything more than a dozen times. The premise sounds interesting. Can’t wait to see how characters are expanded.
Strange that nobody here even considered the possibility that Meyer’s talents are no longer suited to the market. Tastes change in 2-7y cycles here in Hollywood. I respect NM, but he only ever gave voice to the TOS characters in middle-old age. It’s not at all clear that he’d have anything to add to a new, young crew, let along ‘Augments in Paradise Lost.’
Yeah I definitely agree with this. I think its valid he may just not been in touch with the type of characters (and audience) the production was aiming for. I don’t think its age per se, but just someone who has only dealt with one type of Star Trek and that was literally 25 years ago now.
People treat Meyer as if he’s some kind of Trek god but its true we only seen him handle one period/crew and during a time story telling was different in general. Today everything is just more flashy and who knows how comfortable he was writing with these new characters.
I don’t think this is the case. Meyer is much more of a literary writer than most of the current generation of writers in Hollywood. It’s not an issue of age, I think it’s more of an issue of being literary. I think these days (especially with the rise of social media and twitter) people don’t want too much literal language in their movies or entertainment. I think they just want more simpler language and simpler characters with simpler motives.
lots of novelists and playwrights are involved in tv now so that is not the problem.
CBS have no idea what they’re doing and it sounds like any work Meyer did was mixed into a bowl along with everybody else’s. Might explain why it turned out so bad.
Re:“confusion” and “upheavals”
I suggest you peruse this morning’s reports on what CBS contends Moonves was using his power and position to do.
I’d be quite happy if they took the audio from TAS and paired it with 21st Century computer animation.