Check Out 9 New Images For “Through the Valley of Shadows” – Episode 212 Of ‘Star Trek: Discovery’

CBS has released nine new images from “Through the Valley of Shadows,” the twelfth episode of Star Trek: Discovery‘s second season.

[SPOILERS BELOW]

Synopsis

A fourth signal leads the U.S.S. Discovery to an insular world, where Pike is forced to make a life-changing choice. Burnham and Spock investigate a Section 31 ship gone rogue, leading to a discovery with catastrophic consequences.

New photos

“Through the Valley of Shadows” — Episode #212 — Mary Chieffo as L’Rell; Anson Mount as Captain Pike; Shazad Latif as Tyler (CBS)

“Through the Valley of Shadows” — Episode #212 — Mary Chieffo as L’Rell (CBS)

“Through the Valley of Shadows” — Episode #212 — Anthony Rapp as Stamets (CBS)

“Through the Valley of Shadows” — Episode #212 — Anson Mount as Captain Pike (CBS)

“Through the Valley of Shadows” — Episode #212 —  Tig Notaro as Reno, Emily Coutts as Detmer (CBS)

“Through the Valley of Shadows” — Episode #212 — Ethan Peck as Spock; Ali Momen as Kamran Grant (CBS)

“Through the Valley of Shadows” — Episode #212 — Sonequa Martin-Green as Burnham (CBS)

“Through the Valley of Shadows” — Episode #212 — Doug Jones as Saru (CBS)

“Through the Valley of Shadows” — Episode #212 — Shazad Latif as Tyler (CBS)

Trailer and analysis

CBS released the trailer for “Through the Valley of Shadows” on the official Star Trek site. Below is the trailer from Netflix on Instagram (viewable globally)

A closer look at the trailer offers some clues.

Pike says “This new signal is the fourth of seven, over the Klingon planet of Boreth”

Boreth (Presumably)

Boreth surface (Presumably)

Tyler hugs Michael

Burnham tells Tyler “What ever it is you are not telling us about Boreth, I need to know”

L’Rell and Tyler

L’Rell and Voq’s baby

A Vulcan shuttle amidst red signals

The Discovery, likely over Boreth with a Klingon ship in the foreground

Spock says “These signals have invested in Discovery, but you must not dismiss the importance of defeating Control”

A frozen corpse

A Section 31 ship warping away, leaving floating bodies in space

Detmer says “That’s a Section 31 ship”

Viewscreen identifies multiple ships in red

Spock says “They are all Section 31 ships”

Burnham in space suit explores Section 31 ship says (in voice over) “They are coming for us”

Pike says “The signal brought us here for a reason”

Spock in spacesuit pries open door on Section 31 ship

Michael says “The future hasn’t been written yet”

How to watch “Through the Valley of Shadows”

Star Trek: Discovery is available exclusively in the USA on CBS All Access. It airs in Canada on Space and streams on CraveTV. It is available on Netflix everywhere else.

“Through the Valley of Shadows” will be released on All Access on Thursday, April 4th, 2019 at 8:30 pm ET/5:30 pm PT. It will air on Space at 8:00 pm ET/5:00 pm PT on the same night. It will be available on Netflix the next morning, Friday, April 5th, 2019.


Keep up with all the Star Trek: Discovery news at TrekMovie.

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Jordan

“The future hasn’t been written yet” – Yeah it has

Gene did it! :)

Vulcan Soul

Because he was a GENEIUS (see what I did here?) He had that special awesomesauce ;)

Boze

That special awesomesauce was called Gene Coon, Bob Justman, D.C. Fontana, Herb Solow and John D.F. Black. ;)

Rafael Lopez

No Truer words were Ever Spoken My Friend!

jlex

Gene Coon is considered the other genius behind Star Trek. Sure it was Roddenberry who came up with the original concept for Star Trek but it was Gene L. Coon who gave the show it’s heart and soul.

http://www.treknews.net/2017/11/08/gene-l-coon-saving-star-trek/

ML31

I think over time Mr. Coon has gotten is due credit.

Marja

And gods bless his memory. It was a damn shame when he left the show.

Anthony Thompson

Gene Coon (writer of the masterpiece ‘Spock’s Brain’) is way over-rated. He came up with the Klingons. That’s about it. Roddenberry created the Trek universe as we know it, cast the TOS crew, oversaw the creation of the Enterprise, hired all the behind-the-scenes people mentioned above, rewrote almost all the 1st season scripts, etc., etc. I could go on and on. No equivalence between the Genes.

Disinvited

You know, most of those names were employees. They didn’t just materialize out of thin air on the set to bestow their magic upon it.

From September 21, 1966 LA TIMES:

“…
This is the set of NBC’s “Star Trek,” one of the most expensive and elaborate productions in the history of television. The color series stars William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy and a cast of hundreds (mostly weirdos).

The executive producer and architect of “Star Trek” is Gene Roddenberry, former Los Angeles policeman, who served his apprenticeship as one of the medium’s foremost writers.

Roddenberry is attempting to combine the quality of the A movie with the science fiction concept, no easy task. Building a solid foundation, Roddenberry has employed a formidable force of Hollywood’s outstanding writers.

A truly impressive prop was the bridge of the Enterprise, an expansive control area boiling with multicolored lights. At that moment, if someone said it was going to blast off, you would have asked for oxygen.

If the show happens to fail on television, they could easily turn the set into a tourist attraction.” – Don Page, ‘Star Trek is Costly Sci Fi Epic’, LATIMES, Sept. 21, 1966.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-original-star-trek-on-set-20150908-story.html

Chancellor Gowron

He was really one of the biggest problems with the franchise by the time he died.

Vulcan Soul

Chancellor, respectfully, but I’m one of the three fans worldwide who actually likes TNG season 1, so you better watch your bat’leth! The show got too soap operaish, talky and focused on politics later on. In short, it became a proto-DS9. But hey, compared to the McDonalds we are being served nowadays this was all gourmet food still!

Hutch$

Linus is back! Yay! Love seeing such richly alien characters among the crew. And I’m liking the direction of the Klingon look over the last two episodes as well in terms of costuming. Not a repeat of 80’s-2000’s Trek where for some reason Klingons all wore exactly the same outfit for over a hundred years (considering appearances ranging from TOS movies through Voyager with basically the exact same costume), but honoring the textures and shapes of TOS Klingon attire. And it looks like L’Rell’s facial scarring from Season 1 may be back as well? Perhaps to project more of a “fierce, warrior Mother” image as Chancellor?

JRT!

Yeah,FINALLY some Linus again! lol! He should be in a LOT more episodes,I want to know a lot more about him. They should go to his home planet,if he has one.

alphantrion

Wasn’t he a Saurian? where the brandy came from :))

JRT!

lol! That is true. So what would his planet be called….Sauria? lol!

Chancellor Gowron

His home planet is in some of the Enterprise novels. Starfleet accidentally starts a civil war on his planet before the prime directive is drafted.

JRT!

Oooh,thanks for that! Does it have a name?

LaChatLunatique

The tight pants/suits on the male actors this season are killing me, and that’s not a complaint!

Oh my, no it isn’t! Ethan Peck is practically bursting out of that spacesuit.

This is not a bad thing.

Spocks ass has your undies in a bunch?

Let’s just say that Mr. Peck is easy on the ocular clusters.

Kevin Lee

Yeah, because if there’s any character in Trek that screams “beefcake,” it’s Spock. (rolleyes)

That’s what Roddenberry was shooting for in casting Nimoy: overwhelming physical attraction? And here I was thinking it was Spock’s character, his coolness and intellect that made folks like him and imbued the show and subsequent franchise with its mystique.

Josiah Rowe

Leonard Nimoy got plenty of steamy fan mail… so much that Shatner was jealous! It may not be logical, but lusting after Spock is a time-honored tradition.

Kevin Lee

As I noted above, it wasn’t because they cast the actor based on looks. Those fans were drawn to Spock because of his character, not because he fit standards of a traditional looker. Shatner was supposed to be the pretty boy.

Marja

And I was never drawn to Shatner. Nimoy set my ideal for decades to come: Tall, slender, aquiline profile, deep voice and intellect to burn.

Disinvited

Kevin Lee,

You have absolutely zero concept of the Hollywood casting process and the very important role head shots play in it, if you honestly believe Nimoy’s looks played absolutely no part in his being cast. He certainly wasn’t given an IQ test.

DC Fontana sheds some light here:

https://www.moviefone.com/2016/09/07/d-c-fontana-star-trek-interview/

Yeah, because if there’s any character in Trek that screams “beefcake,” it’s Spock.
Well, he sure does now! LLAP

Vulcan Soul

Now all they need is a prim beefcake Kirk and the K/S slashing can begin anew!

PEB

I’m here for THAT!

Marja

meh. but somehow I doubt “prim” was the word you’re looking for ;^)

Vulcan Soul

A PRIME Kirk, if you will :)

And no, at the risk of sounding ageist, but that’s not a vote for some octogenarian action ;)

Anthony Thompson

Scott might be a little light in his loafers. ; )

Rear Admiral Damien

Seriously though, Spock’s ass this season… On point.

Muse

Your comment coupled with your username is just classic. And I totally agree

PEB

You’re so right. It’s perfect.

Middle aged straight male here, but yeah, noteworthy.

BLFSisko

The ship left to the Dicovery seems to be very “klingon”, at least compared to the season 1 ships

PEB

It looks very much to be in the D7 family.

Edward Longueira

D7 prototype ship / 1st D7 ship made

PEB

I think so. I keep scrutinizing that shot as best I can from the trailer.

Legate Damar

Well, they were about to start production on the D7s at the beginning of the season,

Gold Coast Rob

Star Trek trailers used to excite me. I want to like Discovery, great actors, mostly good characters – can they please just write some decent, consistent scripts.

If you feel Discovery didn’t have decent, consistent scripts yet, I’d jump boat if I were you, because you’re out of luck.

TG47

I’m feeling somewhat the same Gold Coast Rob.

I was anticipation each episode this season, and excitement was building up to Project Daedalus.

But now I’m just feeling flat and expecting another let down.

My spouse didn’t even watch last week’s episode yet…after Project Daedalus and Red Angel, they called a break from Discovery.

Tiger2

Sadly same here TG47. The last two episodes really did kill off a lot of excitement I had about this season. Its not to say the story isn’t going anywhere interesting but the biggest revelations just hasn’t done it for me. So many ways they could’ve gone and they made the universe feel practically tiny knowing BOTH the threat and the person who is trying to stop them came from literally the same source.

Wheelie

That’s the drawback of building stories around “mystery boxes,” isn’t it? I mean they REALLY have to deliver in the end.

Holden

The “mystery box” is a strategy that’s just not worth it over the course of a long season. It’s not just that it sets unrealistic expectations, but it also hollows out some of the episodes leading up to it, in retrospect.

Wheelie

Yep, couldn’t agree more. It’s easy to see why they would use it as a marketing hook, but it can easily fall flat in the story department.

Vulcan Soul

Wow, Holden, that’s a spot-on observation! Ultimately mystery boxes are not written for critical acclaim but for social media, nicely generating story after story and comment after comment. They are the clickbait of tv.

Captain_neill

Agreed, it doesn’t have the same rewatch quality as stand alone stories. It is good for the social media mainstream but not so much long term.

Captain_neill

Mystery box long form TV shows are frustrating to me. I like the variety stand alone stories give. Whereas these long form scenarios mean shows get a bit smaller and characters become plot points rather than characters.

We don’t get to see characters in their off time and develop. Airiam’s death and funeral should have meant something and the crew talking about her should have meant something but because it was never developed and Airiam only got some focus on the episode she died in, this doesn’t have the emotional impact of Spock’s funeral in Wrath of Khan or Tasha’s memorial.

Marja

I like a long-form story, but the “mystery box” formulation is really not so tenable.

All the same, I’m enjoying Discovery. Ethan Peck and Anson Mount are great additions [and deserve their own series].

I really miss Jason Isaacs; his presence was magnetic. Even as a Prime Lorca he would “command” the screen. ;^)

Holden

I’m enjoying “Discovery” overall too, despite its narrative issues. It’s definitely an example of when the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Vulcan Soul

“Ethan Peck and Anson Mount are great additions”

They are, but they are out in three episodes unfortunately. Once again, season 3 is a blank slate. Another chance to start over, and not repeat the same mistakes (hopefully).

ML31

To be fair, Captain_neill, Tasha’s service was a little like Ariam’s in that Tasha was aced so very early on. Also, Spock’s was huge because we had the entire original series and animated show to get to know the character over 16 years. I think what you are saying relates more to the short season rather than the mystery box type of thing. Although, looking back at this season of STD it very much feels like 14 was too many episodes to tell this story. I feel like the show might be better if they did perhaps 3 three-part stories, a two parter and 3 stand alones. Follow the Enterprise season 4 playbook a bit.

Spiked Canon

I think the mystery box is the red bursts not the angel

Wheelie

They can have more than one mystery box.

Holden

I’m putting my last Talosian-related bet on them being responsible for the red bursts (if we are now taking the RA at face value)! Saru did say they might be a mirage!

Vulcan Soul

Totally feel the same Tiger. It’s not that the season did not start off promisingly (save for Point of Light we fortunately have all successfully removed from our memories) or that the topic this season isn’t interesting, nor are they politically insulting viewers with a sledgehammer like in season one, but things have devolved into some Skywalkeresque galactic family saga over the last few episodes that is exactly about…. what? Incidentally the show also stopped being about issues when science vs. faith went out of the window (not that going religion was a smart idea to begin with – see ST5). Unless “AI is evil because it will kill all life with timetravel from the future because AI is evil…” is some sort of statement. And now they pulled the rug under us: instead of who is the Red Angel the new mystery is who is behind the red signals. Is it (drumroll) Michael Burnham? Or Mike Burnham, to complete the family reunion through time and space. Trek is becoming fast what Lucas said about “his” Star Wars: a family soap in outer space.

TG47

I’m finding that this much privileged family saga is tone-deaf to Star Trek’s positive messages about a meritocracy.

Yes, we’ve had a bit of it in the past, but the Trois’ inherited status was often played for humour, and Word’s nobility was Klingon, his human foster family was very down to earth.

One of the things that made Trek wonderful is that we could all imagine finding a place in that universe as ourselves, not as some fantasy noble version of ourselves.

And, once again, I need to express that Burnham would be stronger as the first woman of colour in the series lead if she were more ordinary, and the universe didn’t rotate around her.

The way they are going sends a message that they don’t feel that the career progress of a bright woman officer of African descent would be sufficiently compelling as a principal character….so they need to bolster with her all the ultra family connections as well as Federation and all-sentient-life stopping storyline. I’m really not comfortable with the subtext in that…

Spiked Canon

maybe they aren’t there yet? That’s been the theme of the show. We aren’t to the Kirk era and certainly not the Picard era. There was plenty of social discourse on TOS. We somehow have overlooked the Nazis, Romans, Rogue Captains everywhere.

TonyD

The more they try to build Burnham up and center everything around her and her family, the less relatable she and the entire show become. Over the last couple of episodes it has really felt as though the other characters have been pushed to the sidelines and the show has suffered for it.

Trek works best as an ensemble piece where everyone brings something to the table but with these past episodes it seems as though Burham has to finish every sentence, have a finger in every discovery and generally be in the middle of everything.

It has really diluted the show and robbed it of whatever momentum it may have had earlier on.

Marja

I think perhaps they’ll head in more of an ensemble direction next year. The showrunners and writers read CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.

I think they sort of “hung a lantern” on “It’s all about you, Michael” an episode or two ago, yes?

They have a good, strong cast and I think they will make even better use of them in S3.

Vulcan Soul

“I think perhaps they’ll head in more of an ensemble direction next year. The showrunners and writers read CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.”

THAT is my big hope (and that they improve the stand-alone nature of episodes à la Enterprise season 4 or even 3)! For all the attempts to mute the discussion on the lead with accusations of bigotry we have seen here, Roddenberry himself spoke out against a show with a single lead. TOS was a triumvirate, and that was extended to ensemble with TNG onwards. Yes, there were constant concerns that later TNG (and the movies) focused too much on Picard and Data, and for Voyager, Janeway and Seven, but first these were two characters each, and second these concerns were regarded as valid and not some veiled bigotry. In comparison, Discovery is really The Burnham Chronicles, and if anything season 2 has doubled down on that.

Same as with the singular focus on serialization, we can see the problem with Discovery: if you don’t like that particular serialized story, or character (for whatever reason, I also hated Archer and how the actor portrayed him on Enterprise!), you are out. I think that’s not just single-minded writing, it’s not good business. Star Trek lived from the diversity of its characters (and I don’t mean skin color) and stories it could tell.

TG47

VS I had the same experience with Enterprise.

I felt that they wanted an individual hero captain and cast an actor who wasn’t known for ensemble work at that point.

I kept looking forward to the episodes that weren’t dominated by Archer… couldn’t respect either the character or the actor who portrayed him.

But I adored Tripp and T’Pol and Phlox was interesting.

So, other than season 2 (Xindi saga) I hung in there, but haven’t brought myself to watch the reruns.

All told, it seems fair to say based on Enterprise that even with a devoted fan base can’t be counted on when there’s an unappealing serial story arc or excessive focus on an unsympathetic character who dominates the show.

ML31

Some may feel otherwise but I didn’t care for Bakula in the role of Archer at all. He was just badly cast. I suspect he was hired for name recognition alone. That said, the Xindi arc was actually quite well received. Season 3 is a good example of how to do a season long arc over a 20+ episode season. The problem is the damage had really been done by that point and the audience that saw the positive change had shrunk. But was able to save the show for one more season.

TonyD

While I never really followed any of his prior work, my real issue was less with Bakula than with how Archer was written. He vacillated all over the place emotionally, often from scene to scene, going from intrepid explorer to borderline bigot to sometimes even a bully with his command style. The writers never really managed to crystallize his character and ultimately you have a really hard time accepting the fact that someone so apparently unstable could have played such an important role in the founding of the Federation.

It’s another example of writers trying too hard to prop a character up and as a result just doing him and the show a disservice. I never bought into any of it.

ML31

I noticed that too. Perhaps not to the extent that you saw it, but some of that was there for sure. I just don’t think it was the right role for Bakula. He’s a little like Costner. He’s better playing the “everyman” than he is the hero. Archer was just not the right fit for him.

ML31

I liked the show better when it was hinting at the science v faith theme. The instant (pretty early on, too) where they declared science the winner interest in the season decreased. Unlike season 1, however, I am actually curious where this is going, in spite of the Burnham and comic book style silliness. In that sense, this season has been better than season 1. Make no mistake… This season is still not good. Just better than what they did before. It went from F to C-. That grade can of course change depending on what happens in the next 3 episodes.

Tiger2

I don’t even understand why they made such a big deal about the science vs faith thing knowing what we know? Maybe the red bursts is what that will ultimately bring in that theme but the story line so far has all fallen into your basic science fiction tropes, time travel and A.I.

As for the season as a whole, its still MILES better than season one, at least to me. And a lot of the individual episodes are really strong and stuff I can rewatch just for the sake of it (unlike 2/3rds of season one). But yes the main problem is if you don’t like the story line then the season as a whole can still be perceived as a failure. That’s the problem with serialized story telling, if the grand story doesn’t work for people they easily write off the season as a whole. I’ve seen it in everything from LOST to GOT even when they still had a lot of fantastic episodes. But those get lost in the weight of the grand story and how the characters are being developed in any particular season.

ML31

I don’t understand why the science v faith thing was even mentioned in the PR material. That concept was wiped out perhaps 5 episodes in. They KNEW that. I get trying to market the show but that is an outright lie. It’s right up there with “we will examine Klingon culture like never before”. (eyeroll)

Vulcan Soul

” That concept was wiped out perhaps 5 episodes in. They KNEW that. I get trying to market the show but that is an outright lie.”

ML31, we don’t have to assume intent necessarily when maybe it’s just ignorance (as so often in life!) My impression with the writers’ grand announcements before each season about the grand explorations of philosophy or politics or whatever they are going to do is that they THINK by dropping a line like “Remain Klingon” or “Pike’s dad was a teacher for comparative religion”, or by popping in a scripture prop for many religions, they are doing any sort of actual discussion of these topics!

As writers they entirely operate on the surface; there’s no layers in their thinking and thus no layers in their writing. Discovery’s focus on surface production quality is just the other shoe that fits in that regard.

ML31

Perhaps it is ignorance, VS. I just have a difficult time thinking that someone who has achieved to such a level in their profession (of WRITING no less) could be so ignorant to think that dropping in a line or two constitutes an entire theme for a 14 episode season. I have to think the problem mostly lies in marketing. Those folks often have no clue what they are talking about.

Marja

Something I can’t understand is why people expect merchandisers [i.e., CBSAA] to be honest.

I know I’m being a bit brutal, but the showrunners are selling a product. They want us to buy it. If we like it, so much the better.

I happen to like the product. But I don’t put a LOT of store in what they say about it in advance.

Cynical? Maybe, but I’m not disappointed.

Vulcan Soul

Marja, it’s not the sales and marketing people (CBSAA), but the creative forces behind the show, the showrunners and writers, who make these salient points primarily. Networks don’t sell intellectual discussions, now THAT would be bad marketing in the current age! So I have to assume these points are directed towards the long-term fans of Trek, and more cerebral Trek at that, and as such this is an issue of “fool me once…” by now.

Denny C

Yup, feeling the same. Strong start to the season but the deeper we get into it the less compelling it has become.

Vulcan Soul

Denny, I have serious season one Deja Vu!

Denny C

I hear ya’!

Danpaine

You are not alone, Gold Coast.

Sonicantz

I feel like I’m on the other side of the coin, I really enjoyed the Red Angel episode (and arc in general), but thought last week’s episode was meh.

TG47

Doesn’t it say something Sonicantz that after the big reveal in the Red Angel, you were NOT so invested in Burnham and her mother’s story that you were riveted by the last episode…

NOR is the big reveal, that an AI thinks that it’s original mission to preserve the Federation is best served by destroying all sentient organic life, compelling to you.

Sounds as though the deflated feeling is getting to you too.

Spiked Canon

Except that the premise is Science Fiction at it’s core. Read Asimov…

TG47

Spiked Canon I have read Asimov.

I have also read many more coherent articulations of the singularity or advanced or transcendent AIs (try Vernor Vinge).

The Sci-fi they are attempting isn’t novel or as well done, and Kurtzman’s attempt to articulate it in the Moment video was just a facepalm moment.

My sense is increasingly that they aren’t actually comfortable with the science concepts and are trying to slide by with ‘shiny bright’ and ‘cool’ ideas on the surface, and trying to hook the audience with the soap opera elements instead.

There was more exciting and compelling sci-fi in the simple but deft TNG episode Parallels.

And Kirsten Beyer has done great long horizon sci-fi arcs in her Voyager Relaunch books.

By the way, despite the negativity from others here, I’d say the neuroscience is the thing that Discovery most gets right, likely because they have a neuroscientist in the writers room.

ML31

Personally, I was never interested in Burnham or her mother. Ever. Even after the reveal. Nor am I particularly enthralled but the tired idea that an AI decides it needs to wipe out all life. I am, however, curious what path the show is going to take. The actors have claimed they were stunned or impressed with where the show goes. If it doesn’t live up to that it will be another big disappointment.

Vulcan Soul

ML31, I haven’t read the original novels about Control but the idea of a clandestine AI operating in the shadows and manipulating public opinion without anyone realizing would have been both timely and much more compelling! But it sure doesn’t look as flashy as AI robot squids blowing up planets…

Spiked Canon

We have to take the season as a whole. It wasn’t created, IMO, as an episodic excellence show.

TG47

Yes, and if it’s to be taken as a whole, the science concept driving the overarching plot arc had best be credible and well understood by the writers.

There’s no excuse not to put the investment in quality science speculation if they are going to be hanging 14 x $8 million on the product.

Vulcan Soul

“There’s no excuse not to put the investment in quality science speculation if they are going to be hanging 14 x $8 million on the product.”

TG47, clearly that 8 million is spend on “flash, bling and bang” in SFX, sets (not that I wanna trade with Orville’s Ikea), 3d-printed costumes and, apparently, luxury brand clothing (the costume designer mentioned L’Rells high heels were). And not on quality writers. But ultimately Discovery is the Anti-TOS: while the the former’s amazing stories made it so timeless the more sophisticated fan can look beyond the cardboard sets and puppets on strings, Discovery can have all the bling it wants but it won’t distract from the quality of writing which, frankly, can only be engrossing to the more easily-satisfied fans of generic science fiction.

BLACKMOCCO

Excellent point.

Vulcan Soul

“We have to take the season as a whole. It wasn’t created, IMO, as an episodic excellence show.”

I think that’s the problem for Discovery, but it works the other way round: single episodes being excellent this season doesn’t mean as much as in an episodic show because they are mere chapters in a whole novel and that novel, as it stands, just isn’t all that compelling, meaningful and deeply written. They made their bed for serialization, and now they have to sleep in it.

Looks like this episode will let us see some of the underused fan favorites. Lt. Nilsson! Linus! Jett Reno!

If they show Rebecca Romijn and the Starfleet engineer portrayed by George Alevizos, we’ll have Star Trek bingo. 8-)

Tiger2

I won’t lie, this is probably the first time since the season has started I’m not really looking forward to an episode. The Klingons just do nothing for me at all.

But the pics has made me a little more positive. Like that Reno and Linus is back as well.

Fred Schwartz

I’m with you. Too much reliance on the Klingons. I know the Romulans are off limits as are most of the common TNG bad guys, but we’re going to the Klingon well too often. Also I know that it’s picky but Spock has been cleared and is obviously functioning in an official capacity here. If they can’t give him a shave and a haircut, a uniform isn’t too much to ask. Apparently they 3D print them on demand…

favian rodriguez

just curious why are the romulans off limits?

ML31

They aren’t so much as off limits as they are limiting. But only if one stays’s within established canon.

Fred Javelina

Yeah, aside from the Romulan intrigue with the holographic drone ships in Enterprise (that leads to the formation of the proto-Federation alliance), and the never-shown-on-screen Earth-Romulan War, in canon we don’t see the Romulans until their first appearance in TOS:Balance of Terror, which is about 9-10 years in their future.

Captain_neill

Because it’s meant to be a decade before Balance of Terror and that was first time they saw the Romulans appearance.

100 years they had the war but humans never saw a Romulan.

Then again it’s DSC, so who knows.

Holden

I really liked the first Klingon episode this season, mainly because it tied the first two seasons together without belaboring those older storylines. I think a lot of the annoyance with the Klingons right now has more to do with the issues in season one and not with what’s happened in season two. I’m actually excited about this episode because it brings back storylines that hadn’t been focused on much (not that I think it’ll turn out to be some kind of brilliant episode necessarily)

TG47

Holden I also mostly liked Point of Light…

…but the severed Tyler and infant heads put that one off limits for our two middle schoolers.

Spiked Canon

Really? I’m sure they see worse than that on a daily basis. If you or they were following the story, you knew they weren’t real

TG47

Actually, our kids don’t see worse on a daily basis.

We pay attention to the child development literature and put age-appropriate limits on their media access.

Knowing something isn’t real doesn’t mean that the visual image isn’t damaging on its own.

There are a lot of good researchers and good evidence about the impacts of on-screen violence and graphic imagery at various ages.

Danpaine

That’s a point I was trying to make in one of the Twilight Zone reviews yesterday. Over-the-top profanity, which would rightfully turn off responsible parents such as yourself to letting their kids watch. I know it’s how most people (myself included) realistically talk today, but I think its irresponsible for the network to push it, especially in TZ and Trek, which never needed it before. But I guess they don’t mind alienating some parents over the great God $ubscription.

TG47

I really wonder where they think they will find a future audience if today’s middle schoolers can’t watch their new Trek offerings.

Actually, Danpaine many of us find ourselves self-censoring our language once we have kids.

If we can’t restrain ourselves, how can we expect out kids to stay out of disciplinary issues at school?

And profanity is rather the end of the line…it starts here with kids not being allowed to call anyone ‘stupid’ or say ‘shut up’ in Junior Kindergarten at 4 years old.

At that point, we realized that even C-8 television was asking for disciplinary problems.

And the truth is that we just don’t watch that much TV that we can’t watch with our kids. So, we really prioritize the good stuff.

Incidentally, we find that we find that television is getting more graphically violent and profane, we dislike it more and more.

Holden

“I really wonder where they think they will find a future audience if today’s middle schoolers can’t watch their new Trek offerings.”

I was hoping that’s what the Nickelodeon show would be for.

TG47

My kids watch one Star Wars Resistance a week and don’t rewatch it. Kurtzman may have been hooked by Star Wars, but that model may not fit the core Trek market.

Compare that to 12 hours or more of old Trek (Space has all 5 series in reruns in Canada.). They’re into the technical manuals and ship books, and have started into the Diane Duane Trek-lit.

Which basically sounds like how many of the folks on this board found Trek.

Actually, they are going for a product targeted at the younger ages, it’s Annedroids. I think they’ve been through the series a couple of times.

Kurtzman really should be working with Sinking Ship Entertainment for the kids products. Annedroids and Odd Squad are hugely popular despite being STEM education shows. They could deliver a science and engineering credible kids product that kids would love.

Holden

We don’t know yet where the Nickelodeon show would go (if it ever actually materializes), but I agree that shows which talk down to kids’ intelligence won’t reach them.

Fred Javelina

Well, to be fair, Discovery is rated TV-MA (Mature Audiences). Akiva Goldsman explained it in an interview during S1, that yes, they wanted the freedom to use realistic language… I mean, people swear when they’re under stress, and soldiers swear like champions… and the freedom to delve into genres depending on the episode (horror, for instance, in ‘Context is for Kings’) and not shy away from mature content if called for by the story. I don’t think they’ve ever done anything gratuitously.

But he also said that it would be appropriate family viewing with older kids, provided there was parental guidance to discuss what they had seen. https://trekmovie.com/2017/10/11/exclusive-goldsman-explains-episode-9-move-to-2017-and-why-star-trek-discovery-is-tv-ma/

This is of course something parents have to judge for themselves. Some kids are fine, some are really sensitive and will have nightmares. Bottom line is: Know your kids, but don’t underestimate what they know, either.

It definitely isn’t “plunk them in front of the electronic babysitter” fare, that’s for sure. For that, we have box sets of Teletubbies…

TG47

Yes, it’s a marketing choice that TPTB made.

I’m just not convinced that it’s on balance a smart one. Trek is a valuable property. I’m not sure that they’ve drawn in more new fans than they’ve closed out by this choice.

Believe me our kids know a great deal about real life and in many ways are more woke than the writers of Discovery. It doesn’t mean they need more of it in their entertainment.

They do in fact watch more mature content with us, including one who watches much of the Orville. But we do draw a line and we pre-watch. Some things they aren’t ready for, and for others, we need to be ready for the conversations.

With a serial though, we find there’s a limit on how many episodes we can omit before the season becomes incomprehensible.

Vulcan Soul

TG47, TPTB made a lot of baffling choices where limiting the target audience is concerned. You’ think a show that directly depends on fan subscriptions like no Trek show before would be interested to be as appealing as possible to as wide an audience as possible. But with their at times crass violence and polarizing political agenda (especially in season 1) it seems they made it a point to alienate and keep off certain parts of the audience. And who’s gonna PAY directly for a show that keeps insulting them? That’s something different from suffering through an ad break or two but getting the product for free.

This has been discussed before but ultimately the much-scorned national networks did something valuable for targetting: by necessity they made sure that shows are targeted for general audiences and concensus and not modelling exclusive bubbles and echo chambers for polarized fringe audiences. But then again, the latter is the overarching problem we have today, with the internet and social media in particular.

Marja

VSoul, We’ve had this discussion before, but TOS certainly included what you might consider “polarizing political” messages if you saw it now for the first time.

Vulcan Soul

“TOS certainly included what you might consider “polarizing political” messages if you saw it now for the first time.”

There’s nothing wrong with that, but all of TOS’ points were consensus issues and not restricted to a particular partisan faction. And they were more generally relevant to a wider, cross-partisan audience. For example, for our time Discovery could make points about economic inequality, automation displacing workers, algorithms manipulating our lives; issues that actually concern or are going to concern a majority, but instead they chose to equate their political enemies with mass murderers, which is neither an intelligent nor a truthful point of view. For however “sledgehammer” TOS or TNG were, they never vilified part of their audience! And for a very nuanced exploration of racism that explicitely includes the hero rather than fostering a divisive “us vs. them” mentality, see Star Trek VI. It’s been done before, and it’s been done well.

Marja

I agree with this approach Fred J. Explain stuff to the kids, discuss it, and talk about why there’s so much violence, language and so on, on TV now. I personally have no objection to sex and “language” but wish there were a bit less graphic violence. There’s definitely not as much as on some shows … but I don’t watch those!

Denny C

Discovery had TVMA episodes in season 1 but it’s not a TVMA series. Noticeably absent in season 2 are f bombs and nude Klingon sex scenes with episodes that have been TVPG and TV14. They even made a point of having Tilly explain that she’ll be using less colorful language.

Fuller no doubt wanted a more mature spin on the content but Star Trek fans just wanted good writing and CBS probably gave a directive to make the show accessible to a wider audience in season 2.

Legate Damar

This is still probably the strongest second season that any Trek spinoff has had. None of the others got good until around season 3 or 4.

Michael Hall

Nothing can undo the Spore Jump effect, but I’m pleased to see how much better the CG renders of spaceships are looking this season.

Spiked Canon

agreed, they look really good. I’ve enjoyed the CGI this season from the ships to the Turbo Lift

JAGT

They’re finally starting to get rid of the conveniently placed luminescent nebulae EVERYWHERE.

J.S.

Again with the Klingons… (Shatner facepalm)

Vulcan Soul

Hopefully the Picard Show can extensively focus on the Romulans like no series or movie before and they leave the Klingons out of that mostly!

ML31

I saw what you did there, lol

Spiked Canon

I think we all have Klingon PTSD from season 1

Kennelly

Hmm, suddenly one of the Shenzhou guys not seen since the pilot is back?!

Ali Momen’s “Kamran Gant” character was on the mirror Shenzhou for a few episodes IIRC… I guess the prime Gant got a transfer…? I hope that the producers aren’t suddenly bringing Mr. Momen aboard just to redshirt him Thursday night.

TG47

I’m willing to speculate that he could be rescued from one of the S31 ships…

That looks like an S31 environmental suit that he’s wearing.

It would be cool if Ali Momen were to be a regular in the new Michelle Yeoh S31 show.

He’s a solid and talented actor, but one who’s on the record saying that he knows that Canadian talent in American productions shot in Canada (such as Discovery) mainly get very secondary or background roles.

It would be nice if one of the Trek shows filmed in Canada actually had a Canadian in one of the title roles…

It wasn’t too much for TOS, filmed in LA, to have two Canadians: Shatner and Doohan…

Dirty Harry

I don’t mean this to sound rude but the Klingons (including Ash) this season may look better but they feel forced. It feels as if the writers have been told to include these characters just because they’re on the payroll. They just don’t seem to fit with the arc of the story. IMHO

Tiger2

Sadly I think that’s it Dirty Harry. They are contracted to be there so they have to find a way to involve them. Tyler is all but human at this point so its not hard to keep him around. I think the actress who plays L’rell is great but its clear the Klingons have zip to do with this story line and trying to find anyway possible to have her part of the story. The fact she’s been missing for eight straight episodes after only being in one makes that pretty clear.

Sadly the Klingons were a big fail last season for a lot of fans and their so far only appearance this season seems to be considered one of the weakest episodes.

Holden

“The fact she’s been missing for eight straight episodes after only being in one makes that pretty clear.”

I don’t think that’s a problem with the Klingons themselves, though. I don’t get the sudden hate for these iconic characters. I think their misuse is a testament less to their characterization and more to the fact that DISCO should be expanding its narrative universe, deepening our awareness of more characters instead of fewer ones, focusing us on a universe of people and cultures instead of just three characters or so following one narrative question.

Elrond

Holden, I tend to share your puzzlement about this discussion on the Klingons. We have very little knowledge about a major plot line: who is responsible for the red bursts? And why is s/he bringing Disco to specific places, in this case to Borath? Isn’t it possible that some kind of temporary cooperation with the Klingons will unfold against the common threat posed by Control? Let’s wait and see how it plays out (my regular mantra).

Holden

I’m pretty confident that the red bursts, and the person (people) behind them, connect to undoing the Klingon War. Beyond that, I don’t know.

ML31

When season 2 was mapped out, I feel like they worked hard to find a way to wrap the Klingons in it somehow just so they could keep the actors around. I would wager that after the season finale many will think the entire season could have been done without them.

BLACKMOCCO

It doesn’t really feel like season 2 was mapped out very well. And if it was, that makes it worse that someone in the writers room didn’t say “y’know, this doesn’t really work…” when there was still time to address the issues.

Actually, more likely is that once the showrunner upheaval took place, the new room decided to go in a fresh direction from before. Unfortunately, that direction appears to be a worse choice than the previous one.

ML31

They didn’t fix the problems from season one after Fuller left. And he was jettisoned with enough time to fix the problems.

BLACKMOCCO

Yeah, although it’s worth noting the show had been delayed an entire year at that point due to, if the narrative is to be believed, Fuller’s tinkering. Once CBS and him reached an impasse, I’d imagine that was a pretty high-pressured writers room to get the wheels turning while picking up the pieces.

My feeling is this season has kinda walked the same path in regards to showrunner upheaval. That’s just a damn shame.

ML31

I think CBS made a mistake in cranking out season 1 when they did considering everything that was riding on that show. It was the flagship product of their new streaming service. CBS should have taken the time to make sure everything was done right. Even if it was already delayed.

BLACKMOCCO

In a perfect world you’d be right, but with all this attention focused on launching the new streaming service, and Discovery being the flagship, heads were always going to roll.

TG47

Good point ML31.

You know, I’ve always attributed Voyager’s flaws to the same thing…

Paramount wanted Voyager as the flagship of their new UPN network and so the casting and production was rushed to meet the network launch date.

I hadn’t considered that Discovery suffered the same pressure, even though it was delayed due to Fuller.

Captain_neill

I think it’s schizophrenic in the planning.

Tiger2

To be honest, I’ve just never been a huge fan of Klingons in general. I don’t hate them and love regulars like Worf and B’elanna but honestly there is only so many stories I can take of the species in general. And I already wasn’t thrilled when I heard the entire first season of the show would be about them. Of course I kept an open mind and was curious to see how they changed them, but only made them worse IMO and they were now practically every episode to boot.

But there are certainly instanced where I actually enjoyed seeing them like in TUC or their first major (and better) onscreen conflict with the Federation on DS9. Now THAT I was enthralled with the Klingons there and really loved that arc. I really wish some of those guys from that show work on this one. They could’ve showed them how a war arc should’ve been done.

Denny C

There isn’t hate for Klingon’s, there was a backlash to HOW they were handled in Season 1 despite decades of stories from TOS through Enterprise which covered Klingon culture, language, customs, religion, faith, science, etc. As alien species go in sci fi and fantasy, they are fully realized.

Tiger2

Exactly Denny C. Its HOW they were portrayed that was the problem, not just Klingons in general. And as I said I’m personally not a huge lover of Klingons, but partly because we’ve had SO many stories about them already in every series. Voyager probably had them the least for obvious reasons but still covered quite a bit of the culture and history thanks to B’Elanna.

And sadly I felt their portrayal in Discovery was just the worst. They acted like we were going to get this deep dive of their culture we never seen before and even give us a well rounded portrayal where we could see their POV on things and not just as an enemy. But instead they came off like brutal savages and dicks the whole time. Outside of maybe Voq, there was no layers to them.

Part of me was hoping that bomb went off in the season finale even if I knew that was impossible. And making them look like rejected Orcs at the same time didn’t help either.

Denny C

It reminds me of that line from Galaxy Quest: “Did you guys ever watch the show?!”

Jai

”And sadly I felt their portrayal in Discovery was just the worst. They acted like we were going to get this deep dive of their culture we never seen before and even give us a well rounded portrayal where we could see their POV on things and not just as an enemy. But instead they came off like brutal savages and dicks the whole time. Outside of maybe Voq, there was no layers to them.”

Tiger2, it’s quite a contrast compared to the portrayal of Martok, Kor, Kurn etc on DS9. Can you imagine any of the Klingons on DSC credibly giving Martok’s inspirational monologue from the “Worf wedding” episode, or displaying the subtleties of Kor’s reactions when he first met Worf or when he was later being ridiculed by younger Klingons?

Unlike you, I’d be happy with more stories about the Klingons — or even a whole show — but it would need to be done right and handled by the right showrunners/writers. There’s a goldmine of stuff from real-life medieval warrior aristocracies from around the world that could be used to expand the depiction of Klingon culture. Going further back, there wasn’t a shortage of empires and conquerors in the ancient world either. So there’s huge potential here — and it wouldn’t be necessary to retcon anything.

Hopefully the Picard show will do a better job of this, assuming Klingons turn up in that story at all.

Of course, none of this addresses the real million dollar question: If Klingons grow their hair back during peacetime, as certain people involved with DSC have unconvincingly claimed, why does L’Rell *still* not have any eyebrows? ;)

Holden

That’s kinda of what I meant to say, that the current frustration expressed here (I would say hate in some instances) is more a reflection on season one than what they’ve tried to be doing in season two.

Denny C

Which is really unfortunate since the Klingon War as a backdrop had a lot of potential as opposed to what was portrayed as essentially a misunderstanding on a grand scale.

ML31

Part of me is a little thankful they never really got involved in that Klingon war. I feel like there were only two possible ways this group would have handled it. Either they copy how DS9 handled the Dominion war or they try something monumentally idiotic. My bet would have been on the later as that is the same group that gave us the Lorca from the MU foolishness.

Vulcan Soul

” there was a backlash to HOW they were handled in Season 1 despite decades of stories from TOS through Enterprise which covered Klingon culture, language, customs, religion, faith, science, etc.”

There was a certain arrogance, first with Fuller and then with the ousted showrunners, in thinking they could take these established toys and play them better than everyone 50 years before, among them seasoned literary scifi writers… And not entirely unsurprising, these soap opera and YA fiction writers, directed by the esteemed alumnus of Hercules and Xena, could not.

Tiger2

I get what they wanted to do with the Klingons and make them a bit more alien, certainly more so than we saw them in TOS obviously, and maybe more cut throat than how we saw them in the TOS movies and shows like TNG.

Unfortunately they just sucked! I don’t know a better way to say it but they came off like another species entirely. They sound like Klingons saying ‘honor’ all the time and (sort of) look like them but they came off too brutish, almost dumbed down in a way. I thought T’kuvma was interesting and layered. But they killed him off by episode 2 and the rest just came off a lot more one dimensional. I think they thought they were forging new ground with them but in my mind it was the complete opposite.

Vulcan Soul

“They sound like Klingons saying ‘honor’ all the time and (sort of) look like them but they came off too brutish, almost dumbed down in a way.”

They are a “poor man’s Klingon” really, entirely focused on surface (as so many things in this show). That is the real problem. There is no meat between those bones, so it all falls apart when looking and reflecting upon it for more than 5 seconds. Thus the constant need for spore drive speed plots and inane twists and over the top emotion and slam-bang SFX action – there’s a constant need for instant gratification to distract from the inherent lack of substance and meaning.

I think that’s also why we don’t see more complex adversaries like Romulans on this show (apart from the canon issue). Writing Romulans is much more difficult than Klingons because they are not this overly physically violent warrior culture, more like nefarious chess players. But so much more interesting to watch! Let’s hope the Picard show puts its more seasoned writer(s) to good use with this to do the Romulans justice for once (as Nemesis and ST09 did not)!

Denny C

It was a missed opportunity.

Vulcan Soul

“It feels as if the writers have been told to include these characters just because they’re on the payroll”.

“They are contracted to be there so they have to find a way to involve them.”

I had that moment when Cornwell was forced to be the ship’s psychologist (the rral one is held ransom on deck 47 together with the CMO and chief engineer) for one scene and spout off new age love advice that was totally out of place (and ridicilous as a professional treatment). And I don’t give a damn if she was giving a psychology background by a passing line in season one. It’s not her career NOW and totally unbecoming for a visiting admiral there for important life and death business who has no idea who those two characters are from her perspective.

“The fact she’s been missing for eight straight episodes after only being in one makes that pretty clear.”

This can be said even more about Jet Reno who axtually has a point of being there on the ship but… waa not. Characters are a mere function of the plot unless fhey ate called Burnham.

NCC Lincon 1785

Discovery is under her fleet and as well all the reports that pike have written goes to her and Control

Vulcan Soul

“Discovery is under her fleet and as well all the reports that pike have written goes to her and Control”

Well it’s reassuring to know that personal relationship matters (with such a level of intimate detail that would qualify her for professional psychological advice) go into the written reports of Pike to off-ship admirals! Privacy in future Starfleet clearly is going the way of the dodo ;)

Dirty Harry

The “Burnham” thing really annoys me. We were promised a show that didn’t have the captain as the main character, but had a more “below-decks” feel. It doesn’t.

The universe now revolves around one character to a ridiculous degree and even more so than ever before. The fact that I can’t name half of the bridge crew after 2 full seasons is laughable.

At least when the focus was the captain, you could argue that it made some sense because the ship revolved around them. Now we even have Michael Burnham telling Captain Pike what to do…

I would love to see a Star Trek that genuinely followed different characters at different times; even on different ships or in different locations. I’d be more than happy with a feature-length Klingon episode followed by a 5-episode saga based on Earth, and then a 3-part story back on the Enterprise. It would make the universe feel so much bigger, and so much more realistic.

ML31

You brought up something I didn’t really think of. I honestly can only name one bridge officer after 26 episodes. I consider that a problem. IMHO, for a show not centered on the captain to work, that main character needs to be in a position low enough where said character almost never steps foot on the bridge. Or gets involved only through extreme circumstances and even then is a one time special thing. That has certainly not been the case with Burnham over the show’s 26 episodes.

Dirty Harry

OK, off the top of my head…

Burnham, Saru, random captain.

Then we have Detmer (spelling?), Owo… (something…), Bryce (I think)… I’m done.

Detmer is at the helm. Bryce might be communications. Saru is science, although that is vague at best.

By this time in any other series, we knew who everyone was and what their role was – apart from TNG having no Chief Engineer, which is still a mystery to me!

Perhaps it’s only me, and maybe I’m not the nerd I used to be. ;-)

ML31

If I recall, TNG did show a Chief Engineer at some point in the first season. But by episode 27 we got Geordi as the Chief. Which seemed to be the obvious choice. I think this week will be the 27th Discovery episode.

When I meant naming the bridge crew I pretty much meant beyond Pike and Saru. I’m still not sure who opens hailing frequencies.

Marja

ML31, LT Bryce is the Comms Officer.

Marja

Saru, Burnham, Owosekun, Detmer, Bryce, Rhys, Airiam-now-Nilson, and a character with a size-8 bipedal, human-looking female body, with a huge alien head. We also have Stamets, Culber, Dr Pollard, CDR Jett Reno, and our Saurian friend Linus. I am waiting to see who the CMO and Chief Engineer are. My bet is, Reno and Stamets will be co-chiefs, but the CMO remains to be found. Perhaps on Deck 47 … ;^)

ML31

See? I have seen all 26 episodes just once and there is no way I could have retained all that. (One possibility is that my nerd factor has gone down some as I’ve grown older I suppose) Marja, have you seen each episode once or did you get this from repeated viewings?

Dirty Harry

Ah, Cornwell… The admiral who can apparently appear wherever Discovery is, at a moment’s notice and seemingly regardless of how far they’ve travelled or how long it’s taken them to get there. I remember her.

Vulcan Soul

Remember, Harry, ships in Trek are always travelling at the speed of plot ;)

Spiked Canon

We ll we knew the baby episode couldn’t be the last of it. They had this planned all along.

Danpaine

Agreed. I’ve suggested the same on different threads. They have no place in this show. CBS should go ahead and make a Klingon show, if there’s that much interest. Then they can really explore the different houses and whatnot, as they said they were going to do in season one.

ML31

I would actually be more interested in that show than a Picard one. But I guess that’s just me.

BLACKMOCCO

Count me in. I must be the only person on here who enjoyed Point Of Light.

blackmocco

I would include Spock, the Talosians, anything Section 31, and Culber’s resurrection in with that complaint. All just noisy distractions to disguise the smell of the proverbial fart in the proverbial spacesuit: the writers have (mostly) not lived up to the task this season. The faith vs science arc we were promised went nowhere fast and now we’re stuck with another badly told AI-gone-nuts story.

Vulcan Soul

Promising beefy topics before season’s start and then not delivering (or worse, twisting them into something else) is a time-honored tradition for Discovery by now.

Tiger2

I liked seeing the Talosians again but I brought this up in the If Memory Serves review section that I didn’t love it as much as others because I still don’t understand what purpose they served? Did they ‘cure’ Spock, maybe I’m missing something. But basically they went to Talos IV just so the Talosians can tell Burnham what Spock already knew. I don’t understand, why couldn’t he just show her via a mind-meld? Or if that were impossible due to his present condition, why couldn’t he just, you know, tell her? Would she not believe him if he just told her what he saw? And then I thought maybe it would provide some clarity into the Red Angel since that’s the reason he was going ‘crazy’ and that seem to have done little too.

I’m honestly still baffled what purpose they served in the story overall other than the obvious, because people wanted to see Talos IV again and have the scenes we saw like Vina seeing Pike again, etc.

And yes the science vs faith theme has been wasted. I still have no idea why bring that up in the first place. They set it up (quite beautifully IMO) in New Eden and then its basically ignored from that point on. I really thought that was going to be a discussion within the show itself or that maybe Pike himself would lean into the idea of the Red Angel being something more? But none of that happened and we found out the Red Angel is just a secret Section 31 time travel project created by Burnham’s mom. I never believed it was an actual angel or anything but the revelations made it clear it was never anything more than a sci fi story.

Maybe it will come back with the red bursts though.

ML31

I never figured out what the purpose of the Talosian visit was either, besides fan service. When we say the Talosians before all they had was the power of illusion. Not the power to unscramble time for someone. That made no sense they could “cure” Spock. Further, they demanded a memory as payment which was also completely out of place for them. To me, the only purpose behind that was to show the audience that supposed horrible incident that broke up Spock and Michael. Which ended up being amazingly underwhelming and totally out of place for the adult Spock to still be irritated over. So yeah… That entire visit was just nothing more than fan service. Bad fan service at that as they changed the Talosians abilities and desires around on us.

Tiger2

I agree pretty much everything except I didn’t mind some of the changes of their abilities. We’ve only seen them in one episode so its hard to say what they really could or couldn’t do. I admit the ‘payment’ for memory thing was weird though. Maybe it would’ve just been better they asked to probe her memories to get a different perspective of Spock and what he was going through since it started when they were kids. And yes I said it too I thought why the broke up was a bit silly 20 years later and still stand by that. Especially now since we are seeing them repair their relationship in a matter of days. Why did it take so long to just make up then? They literally had 20 years to do it. But OK, its TV, I get it. That’s just how it works.

The episode itself is certainly fun and exciting for many hardcore TOS fans. When I originally heard the show would be placed 10 years before TOS I thought because they could do stories just like this one. But sadly thats the other problem, doing it just to do it. For some people just going back there was enough but I wish they had a real reason for going there and even liked that the theory the red burst themselves had something to do with them. Tie them into the story and not literally just be a side plot to it.

ML31

I guess one could argue that we don’t know what else the Talosians can do. But I sorta place that up there with giving Superman new and never before seen powers just so a certain story about him will work.

The Spock-Michael break up thing bothers me the more I think about it. At the time I figured, there has to be more to it than that. Many episodes later and it seems the answer is, “nope. That’s it.” The story would have been much better served if they included the Talosians in the red bursts somehow. So yes, I agree there. That would have been the “organic” way to bring them back in. The way they did it here made no sense. The fan boy in me was happy to see them again, sure. But the realist in me questions the entire concept.

BLACKMOCCO

Easy answer to Talos IV: It served no purpose whatsoever. Waste of everyone’s time.

I’d hoped the red angel might be something alien and new. I mean, this IS Star Trek. As far as explorers go, Discovery hasn’t actually, y’know, DISCOVERED anything yet.

Holden

Re: their lack of “purpose”. Well, this is one big reason I’ve assumed for awhile that we haven’t seen the last of the Talosians–along with, and connected to, the fact that Pike’s storyline will most likely involve some kind of clear resolution here that will point to The Menagerie.

Holden

Not that I think the resolution will necessarily be satisfying, but I don’t see how they resolve Pike’s established arc here without some connection to, or foreshadowing of, Talos IV.

Tiger2

Hope you’re right Holden. Maybe they will serve another purpose again. But based on that episode they did very little outside of giving Michael Spock’s visions.

favian rodriguez

sorry to say I agree, Ash is my favorite character on the show, but man did they F-up his character. I do suspect that dr. culber will have a hand in saving his life though, based on where we left him last episode. it would make for some good drama, I guess.

Professor Spock

Oh no! The Klingons are back. When they show up, the episode starts to suck.

FLB

But hey! The Great Balance means more Reno!

Vulcan Soul

You summed this up nicely. That’s Tilly’s most favorite scientific law we did not get to hear ;)

PaulB

L’Rell’s outfit is freaking awesome! I look forward to seeing that cosplayed at cons.

Luckdragon

The design on the front reminds me of a black widow.

TG47

It rather looks like the designers were riffing off the Durass sisters’ style without the visible cleavage, while going for the palette favoured by Martin’s wife.

It works for me.

Wheelie

The red and black reminds me a little of Gorkon.

NCC Lincon 1785

Gorkon

Wheelie

Gorkon

kmart

Yeah, but the material on this looks better. The way those TUC outfits took the light, they sometimes looked like they were made of that buoyant stuff kids wear to keep from drowning in the pool. I remember thinking, is that naughyde or plastic?

Ay yi yi. So much negativity. I look forward to The Orville returning next week, if for no other reason than to give the negative nellies a different target to bash.

Vulcan Soul

Nothing to bash on The Orville though? Alas, if only there wasn’t the eye-hurting interiors powered by Ikea and the toilet humour, I probably would have (literally) jumped ship already ;)

ML31

If the humor (toilet or otherwise) was why you jumped off that ship then go back and check out season 2. There is nearly no humor to be found in it anywhere. To me, I would welcome ANY kind of humor. Even dick jokes if it makes the show enjoyable again.

kmart

Am I the only one who likes ORVILLE’s darker moments best? Personally, I’m still embarrassed hearing a lot of the contemporary anachronisms, kind of like how it felt when I’d hear the va-va-VOOM music in MUDD’S WOMEN or A PIECE OF THE ACTION as a kid.

ML31

I do not think you are alone. But I am of the opinion that the darker moments would play a ton better if they leaned the show more towards comedy elsewhere the bulk of the time. Also, the contemporary anachronisms would not stand out like they currently do if they shifted tone. They would feel right in place.

TG47

As someone who was on the positive side for Discovery, it took a fair bit of wilful silliness to get me into the negative…

No matter how deep the emotional beats, or the quality of the acting, the episodes 11 and 12 left me deflated and disengaged.

Professor Spock

The Orville is cancelled. Very unlikely for The Orville to get season 3. Maybe I’m wrong.

You are.

ML31

Orville’s season 3 decision has yet to be made. Or at least, publicly announced.

Jako

Yeah… thats how you do it:
Start with “the orville IS cancelled” … and give a maybe and a very unlikely after that! Midnights Edge would be proud of you.

Denny C

Midnight’s Edge should just run with a tagline that reads, “Hey! Look what I pulled out of my a**!”

blackmocco

As someone who’s given a lot of leeway towards Discovery so far, it gives me no pleasure to agree with a lot of the negativity. Nobody here wants the show to struggle but there are legitimate issues and constructive criticisms being brought up here by concerned fans. It can’t and shouldn’t be all positivity when the show hasn’t earned it.

CmdrR

Great. L’Rell, Ash/Voq, baby, and Burnham.

My least favorite Trek combo since Tuvix.

Jako

hahahahaha…. good one!

CmdrR

It feels like the writers throw out ideas then forget them. If RA is either Burnham — or both — there’s no real reason contact would have driven Spock bonkers. This is a guy who deals with Talosian buttheads and held (will hold) his shat together on nearly the highest setting of a Klingon mind-sifter.

Psst…don’t tell anyone, but this show’s writers are kind of terrible at their jobs! Which is a shame; they’re the only people in the production who are.

TG47

Bryant it’s hard to know what’s going on with the writers.

Is it their ability or the work environment… are the new writers better writers or just good family saga soap writers (e.g. Michelle Paradise comes from a vampire family soap…not very solid background for Trek…and is not wowing sci-fi Trek fans so far.)

We know for certain that there was a toxic relationship between the former showrunners and the writers room…

But we don’t know if that was because the showrunners were big footing creativity from the room or enforcing high level direction for the season’s major arc.

We also know for certain that there was a lot of reworking of the storyline when episode 2 was being written because Tamara Deverell has said that the production design team had to redo the window design for the church in New Eden over 20 times. Sounds as though the strife on the writing side has put a lot of last minute load on the production and post-production teams.

Basically, it sounds as though there were some major and fundamental issues with the storyline from the start, and the writers room was not on board.

Last thought, one of the reasons that TOS and 90s Trek is so rewatchable is that there were layers and layers that could be picked up through rewatching. The more one rewatched, the more the messaging, the stories, the technobabble and the character beats held up.

Back when TNG and DS9 were in first run and VCRs were ubiquitous, I recall watching each new episode 2-3 times with my techy housemates and friends…the one exception was a physicist housemate who used to watch Trek while grinding through quantum problem sets.

Social media boards were not a thing, but rewatching and discussing definitely was. We definitely found plot holes, but things hung together more than not.

ML31

I just want to say to that that TOS worked for me because it succeeded on many levels. I watched it as a child and was thrilled by the positive sci-fi message. I watched it as a teenager and began to see the underlying themes in the episodes. Even with the plot holes, the stories still worked. I don’t expect any new Trek show to be up to the standard of TOS. None are. But it is possible to put together a decent Trek show.

BTW.. The fact that Discovery has a limited number of episodes each season, to me, works against them. I expect more because there is less. I also expect more because of the platform the show is a paid for service. Therefore, for Discovery to be as bad as it has been it just criminal. to be honest, if this show were on an over the air network or even a cable channel, I would not be as disappointed with it. The circumstances demand a ton more scrutiny than usual.

BLACKMOCCO

Yourself and TG47 make some good points here, sadly. Discovery introducing and burning through plot points at this rate just stinks of insecurity, if we’re being kind. Inept panic, if we’re not. As if one slow episode that focuses on plot or character is a weakness. The likes of Breaking Bad, GoT and BSG – if Discovery is truly aspiring to telling quality serialized storytelling, those shows should be on repeat in the writer’s homes – have never been afraid to slow the action down to focus on fleshing out a plot or character. Part of me agrees with you that I wish there were more episodes to help the show breathe a little, but honestly, the show could function with less. It just involves streamlining out the noise and focusing on the meat, something a capable showrunner should be able to do. I can barely figure out what this season is supposed to be about now. Ugh. What a mess.

kmart

One thing that bugged me about TNG was that they would seize on a good SF premise like a Dyson Sphere and then just throw it away as background instead of exploring it in depth. It sounds like DSC is throwing every possible twist at viewers instead of just focusing on a few and getting depth and meaning from them.

We’ve been rewatching TOS yet again in recent months, mixing it up with select DS9 eps (it’s hard with the latter, because the visual quality is so bad, so you practically have to watch from another room, but the material transcends despite this), and many of the eps still just really light off sparks with me creatively. I can look at them with semi-fresh eyes and still often love what they do and what they aspire to do. I’m not talking MUDD’S WOMEN or THE ALTERNATIVE FACTOR, but I am saying that I still find many middle of the road TOS eps to be very engaging on the umpteenth viewing, which I can’t say about many of the others … honestly can’t imagine even finishing watching VOYAGER or ENT, which I gave up on midstream and after s1, respectively.

Considering how much great stuff that turned up in the last two decades — DEADWOOD, THE WIRE, CARNIVALE, SOPRANOS, and probably close to a dozen others that I consider superior long-form storytelling — I don’t see my disappointment with TREK as indicative of being set in my ways, but more in terms of the material not measuring up to the premise.

The fault lies not in the stars, but in the execution of these newer Treks.

Kirk1701

I agree that the writer’s room has been a battleground from the beginning. We don’t know precisely what’s gone down over the last couple of years, but I’m prepared to posit that the showrunners (pre-Kurtzman/Kadin) were using Star Trek as a vehicle for their personal agendas, for lack of a better term. They weren’t interested in Star Trek stories, really. This much is obvious from the pilot. The only truly Trek-like character was Saru. Everything else was unrecognizable. This season is better, but it’s built on such shaky foundations. It just feels hollow. Spock in particular. I’ve enjoyed a good deal about this season while watching the show, but when the credits roll, I’m left feeling uneasy. Nobody really cares what I think, but I’ll second your notion about the problematic writer’s room.

ML31

I can get behind much of what you said there, Kirk1701.

Kirk1701

Excellent. Then take us out, Mr. Sulu, warp factor one.

kmart

TG47,
That redoing window 20 times thing you mention sounds incredible to me. This isn’t David Selznick having his director reshoot a character intro for a major motion picture over & over for 20 days, or even Rick Berman demanding more and more iterations for CG effects on FIRST CONTACT, it’s just a tv show. Would like to know more about that, because it sounds very indicative of a much larger problem (or like one hell of an exception.)

TG47

Trekmovie.com has this covered for us kmart.

See their summary of Deverell’s recent presentation in Toronto at a Directors Guild of Canada special event, particularly the Season 2 highlights at the bottom.

And I stand corrected…there were 22 versions of the church window.

https://trekmovie.com/2019/02/10/star-trek-discovery-designers-show-concept-art-and-talk-changing-sets-uss-enterprise-and-more/

Professor Spock

I’m not really excited about this week’s episode. I like her dress tho. She is so hot lol. Seeing the Klingons again ruins the show for me. I’m looking forward to Avengers Endgame more than this. I will still watch it anyway. L’Rell looks so good in that outfit. I’m having dirty thoughts about her right now lol.

You know you don’t have to just type every single thought that pops into your head, right? You can just omit some of it. Nobody needs your inner monologue brought forth.

Kirk1701

“Worlds may change, galaxies disintegrate, but a woman… always remains a woman.”

But yes, Professor Spock, please stop thinking with your glands. Charm is a lost art.

TKW

L’Rell’s costume echoing Azetbur. Always wondered why TNG established Klingon women couldn’t be chancellor or on high council at the same time that The Undiscovered Country was being made with Azetbur being chancellor.

Sebi

As much as I love The Undiscovered Country, that aspect never made sense to me, especially that TNG established the rite of succession a year earlier. TUC made it seem that Azetbur inherited “the throne”…

Say, why hasn’t Spock started wearing a Starfleet uniform by now?

Professor Spock

I don’t know. What uniform does he wear on the Enterprise?

Mark

I wondered why he still has the beard and unkempt hair. Then I realised why. And the answer is “25%” :)

Jako

Erm… and why did they wear the original uniforms and Hairstyle and non-Beard in the Kelvin Films this 25% supposed to originate from?

Your claim makes no sense! You could achieve 25 % by far more subtle changes.
Disco looks far more than 25% different to TOS.

ML31

Pretty sure Mark’s comment was said with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Hence the smiley face.

kmart

25% is becoming the behind-the-scenes equivalent to ‘on Tuesday.’

jlex

From the above picture of Spock, it seems he has time to trim his “neck beard” but no time for his facial beard. What’s with that? Also included in that 25% is his ears. In the same picture, the make up team gave him cauliflower ears.

ML31

That’s a very good question. Also, now that the dead guy/mycelial agent has been OK’d to work again (for some unknown reason) it seems the other doctor (was that woman the CMO?) is nowhere to be found again and we are left thinking Culber is the CMO again even though we were told he isn’t.

ML31

Yay! Reno shows up! Boo… L’Rell shows up!

El Beau

Am I the only one who finds Ash Tyler supremely annoying? It’s not a knock on the actor – he’s terrific, it’s the way the character is written. He’s a love interest! He’s a spy! He’s the Torchbearer! He’s a Starfleet officer! He’s a spy again! Wait, he’s a double agent! He’s a floor wax! He’s a dessert topping!
Writers: give him his quick redemption where he saves the ship and then kill him off. Like, right now.

Jako

Yep you are the only one. everyone else downright hate him for that.

Denny C

He’s one of the more interesting characters on the show.

Bird of Prey

It seems that L’Rell decided to go all crazy with her hair style, now that she has hair in the first place!

I was starting to wonder what happened to Linus, so yay for having him back!

Also: Yay, Boreth!

Mike

“The future hasn’t been written yet.”

Thanks Doc Brown! At least Discovery could try and come up with some original dialogue, without ripping off one of the best time travel franchises of all… time?

I’m fairly certain it’s “Kamran Gant,” not “Kamran Grant.”

Very interesting pics, glad to see that Reno is back again! And L’Rell… I really like Mary Chieffo!

TG47

Automated spelling editors are just evil Dang.

Anything out of the ordinary is edited away unless we resist.

CmdrR

Control steals the RA suit, jumps back a dozen episodes and zaps Spock into nuttiness, so Super Burnham must jump back (because she also somehow has a suit) and blow up Control in seven places at once to fully defeat it. Crap, still doesn’t explain why the seven signals appear here at the same time. I give up. Tilly just spouts incoherent technobabble and the season ends on a cliffhanger with TOS Kirk standing on the transporter pad.

JAGT

Looks like Sara Mitich is on her way to becoming everyone’s favourite background actress… AGAIN

DaveCGN

Now the new episode was amazing and way better than the last 2 ones! They should have skipped the last 2 episodes or just show how Leland became Control…
The new episode felt like a mix of Lord of the rings and Terminator.
Boreth looks like middle-earth, the time crystals are like cryptonite for Pike and Michael Burnham has obviously become John Connor while her mother is Sarah Connor and tries to stop Control/Skynet.
At least they reduced the Klingon stuff which I didn’t wanna see.