Review: ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ Comes Together For “Such Sweet Sorrow”

“Such Sweet Sorrow”

Star Trek: Discovery Season 2, Episode 13 – Debuted Thursday, April 11th
Written by Michelle Paradise & Jenny Lumet & Alex Kurtzman
Directed by Olatunde Osunsanmi

SPOILER-FREE REVIEW

This first entry from the two-part season finale delivers on building up the anticipation while delving into some satisfying character moments. “Such Sweet Sorrow” is a celebration of both everything new about Discovery in its second season along with some delightful elements of Star Trek history.

Anthony Rapp as Stamets; Doug Jones as Saru; Shazad Latif as Tyler; Ethan Peck as Spock; Ronnie Rowe as Bryce; Oyin Oladejo as Owosekun; Patrick Kwok-Choon as Rhys; Mary Wiseman as Tilly

 

[WARNING: SPOILERS BELOW]

 

RECAP

Back to the Future

The first episode of the two-part finale begins on a bit of Vulcan mysticism, with Sarek meditating on a beach. He is reaching out through the force his katric connection and sees that his foster daughter Michael is in distress. This callback to the series premiere and their special connection sets the gravity and the stakes for what is to be a major event in the life of the focal character of Star Trek: Discovery.

Nothing warms a Vulcan heart like Amanda’s famous Plomeek soup, with extra blandness

Cut to action on the Discovery. We pick up after last week’s cliffhanger and Pike’s decision to blow up the ship to destroy the sphere data that Big Bad Control/Leland wants ever so much. The crew is shown packing up with a montage of activity, including fun little character moments with people deciding what to keep, including callbacks like Saru and his sister’s knife. The USS Discovery is being abandoned with a mass migration to the USS Enterprise, which parallel parks alongside with some extended and cool visual effects. It’s hard to believe they are doing this, but Michael’s log voice-over assures us that “this is actually happening,” yet in a bit of foreshadowing she also asks “is this really the only solution?”

Careful Detmer, this ship was just refit—don’t scratch the paint

In time-honored Star Trek tradition, the stage is set for the USS Enterprise to face the fight alone, as Control has infiltrated Starfleet’s communications, preempting any attempts to call for reinforcements. Control is on the way with the armada of Section 31 ships to get that data so it can do what evil AIs do and wipe out all sentient life. The good guys have a time crystal and a bit of faith, but no real plan on how to use it. In the previous episode, Pike sealed his fate on a quest to get the crystal, highlighting its importance and setting it up as a sort of Chekhov’s crystal – no, not that Chekov. And if its importance wasn’t clear enough, the crystal shows Burnham a glimpse of a horrific future battle to make the point.

Onboard the USS Enterprise we are treated to a feast of new locations, including more corridors, a turbolift and the bridge itself, all beautifully designed hybrids of the Discovery aesthetic and the classic original. All of this is replete with music and sound effects evocative of Star Trek: The Original Series. And this is no half-measure, partial or virtual set or even a redress—they went for it with an entirely new and beautiful bridge for the USS Enterprise, which will be a locus for the finale. Many fans will agree with Pike as he is welcomed “home” by Number One and he says “it’s good to be back.”

The bridge gets even more crowded as Admiral Cornwell is already there—having taken command in Pike’s absence—and Captain Georgiou shows up to make snarky comments about the vibrant color scheme, apparently unaware that orange is the new black. With what may be another wink to the audience, Pike prefaces the destruction of the Discovery by saying “we will never see another like her,” but this was premature, because of course, the sphere data that refused to be deleted isn’t going to let a self-destruct take it down. After another vision of a future where Leland captures the Discovery, Burnham announces her idea for Plan B. Wrapping up what may be the best pre-credits teaser of the series, Michael proposes using the crystal to “take Discovery out of this time.” Oh boy, we are going back to the future, people!

The 23rd century’s greatest breakthrough is a high-gloss floor that never needs polishing

Weird Science

The plan to get the Disco into the future is to simply build a brand-new Red Angel suit for Michael Burnham—remember it is keyed to her family’s DNA—so she can create a wormhole and take the ship along for a ride on autopilot. In another classic conference table exposition scene, the big brains work out that Michael must have been the one who has been sending the red signals all season long, so it turns out she is if not THE Red Angel, but she is A Red Angel, so her topping the list of suspects pays off. She has even been prepping for the role by watching reruns of her mom’s logs. The plan has Spock’s logic meshing with Pike’s faith that there is some design to the signals, only they have yet to discern what it is. All of this sort of elevates Michael to some kind of divine figure in the show.

And right on cue the fifth signal is detected, so Pike and a skeleton crew comprised of all our favorite characters head back to the Discovery to spore jump to it, with the Enterprise tasked to catch up via old-fashioned warp drive. It turns out the signal is above the dilithium-rich planet Xahea, home to Queen Me Hani Ika Hali Ka Po. Tilly couldn’t be more delightfully excited, revealing how she knows “Po” and bonded with her over their shared love of engineering in the Star Trek: Short Treks episode, “Runaway.” This all comes as a surprise as Tilly never revealed Po’s previous visit to the USS Discovery to the crew; she kept the whole stowaway thing on the down low.

Po jumps in right away to help with the plan, and even takes some time to call out Georgiou for her “snark.” In a scene replete with classic technobabble, Po’s solution for creating enough energy to power the time crystal is to “modify my dilithium incubator to trigger an ongoing cascade of energy within the crystal by combining it with dark energy.” Reno and Spock jump in with more Treknology analysis, working out that Po’s solution will burn out the crystal, making Burnham’s trip to the future a one-way ticket. She is not coming back, ever.

Thanks for the ice cream, but do you guys have a thing against chairs?

Always ready to take on the weight of the galaxy, Michael does not blink before setting herself to jump 950 years into the future, hoping to end up at Teralysium—the planet from “New Eden” which has been her mother’s technology-free refuge from Control. This planned sacrifice gives her a chance to make another rousing speech, but instead of leaning into talk of Starfleet principles, she makes it personal, telling the assembled team, “I love you.” As with other recent episodes, this one asks a lot of Sonequa Martin-Green and she makes it work, in this and a number of other emotional moments.

As it turns out she doesn’t have to say goodbye to everyone as some of the cast for season three her closest friends volunteer to stay on the Discovery, including Tilly, Stamets, Saru, Reno, Nilsson, Detmer, Owosekun, Nhan, Rhys, Bryce, and even Osnullus. Curiously, Spock also volunteers to join her in the future. Overcome with emotion, she puts up token resistance, but speaking for them all, Saru accepts their sacrifice—and nicely sums up what it means to be in Starfleet—saying: “committing to a life amongst the stars is in itself a resolution to leave some things behind.”

You didn’t think we would let you go off and find new co-stars, did you?

Stand By Me

This episode was focused on putting all the plot pieces together for the finale, but it found ample time to do the same for the characters. This included picking up on the story of Stamets and Culber, with a nice quiet moment where the two talked about their personal futures. Stamets sees himself settling down on some space station, with Hugh planning on staying with the USS Enterprise. In a form of resolution, Anthony Rapp and Wilson Cruz show their perfect chemistry as they accept their new status apart and talk of how “forward motion is the most honest choice for both of us.”

In addition to her big speech, Michael has time for more personal goodbyes with her extended family. Of course, Georgiou can’t come out and say how she feels, so she berates Michael for being “stupid” and having “a martyr complex.” Things get more touching when Sarek and Amanda show up, drawn by her katric call. With love and tears all around—okay, not Sarek—they accept her decision. Even though the situation could have called for it, James Frain didn’t get too sentimental as Sarek, as he has in some previous episodes. While this scene of forgiveness and closure for the Sarek family was beautifully written and performed, it was a bit strange for Sarek and Amanda to randomly show up in the middle of this crisis, only to immediately leave. It also raises the question of why he didn’t bring any help from Starfleet along. Maybe he will be back in part 2 with last-minute reinforcements? Otherwise, this visit sort of blows a hole in the reasoning behind why they are facing the Section 31 fleet alone.

Michael’s hardest goodbye is with her former love—and former Klingon—Ash Tyler. He wants to go, but he is committed to ending Leland and any chance for something like Control happening again. Explaining why he is the man for the job—and auditioning for a part on the upcoming Section 31 show—he says it requires “someone inside the grey areas.” With swelling music, their Montague and Capulet kiss lands as we believe it may be the last time these star-crossed lovers will ever see each other. Tyler adds a bit more intrigue later, saying goodbye to Pike and asking for his trust as he has something to do, presumably in part 2 of the finale.

They blew their emotional goodbye budget on this one

In a touching montage, the crew that chose to remain with Michael also get some closure through dictating goodbye letters to loved ones. Saru tells his sister Siranna how much he loves her, Tilly tells her stern mother that she can feel her respect, Owosekun asks her Luddite parents for forgiveness for choosing a life in Starfleet, Detmer pours herself out to her Academy friend Tazzy, who she relied on following her injuries at the Battle of the Binary Stars, and Stamets assures a sibling of their parents’ love. These poignant character moments were played out effectively by the cast and pay off moments—both big and small—woven throughout the series.

After the Enterprise catches up with the Discovery, that leaves Pike to say goodbye to those who are remaining behind. Of course, his speech talks of bravery and honor, but showing the kind of leader he is, he acknowledges each of them and the contributions they have made to the mission, and this season. All except Lt. Spock, because “there are no words” to convey, with the anguish on his face sufficing. With the crew snapping to attention as he exits and the music rising, we feel how parting is indeed such sweet sorrow. While we know Pike will still be around for the final episode, this still worked as a goodbye to a character who has been so welcomed by the fans, and Anson Mount played it beautifully. Missing him already.

Wait, don’t go …

WarGames

After all the goodbyes and with just minutes until the Section 31 fleet arrives, the stakes are raised even more as the plan runs into a snag. The time crystal isn’t charging fast enough and the only solution requires yet another sacrifice. This time Reno steps up, volunteering to work on the crystal without its protective cage, which will expose her to enough visions of the future to make her head “explode.” Suggesting her matter-of-fact nature can protect her, she says “the mission is the mission, whatever I see” so she should be fine. This gives her and Stamets a chance to say their own special kind of goodbye, noting—with some smirks—that they still dislike each other. Let’s hope that Reno survives this, as the Tig Notaro/Anthony Rapp show must go on.

Dry wit can protect me from time radiation, right?

With everyone in their place—Pike back on the Enterprise and Saru in command of the Discovery—the stage is set just in time for the arrival of Leland and his fleet of Section 31 ships, which quickly surround the good guys. Red Alert. Shields Up. Prepare for part two…

Richard Daystrom won’t mention this at the M-5 proposal meeting coming up in about a decade

ANALYSIS

It’s finally happening?

Before it even began, Alex Kurtzman and others with the show have talked about how the second season would endeavor to “sync” with canon and answer lingering questions, like whatever happened to the spore drive and why Spock never mentioned his sister. More recent comments have talked about an explosive finale that upends the show, and once time travel was added to the mix, the pieces started coming together. Pike sealed his future fate in the last episode to get the time crystal, so we knew it wouldn’t be ignored. And proving the theories right (or so it seems) the plan for the second part of the finale is to jump the ship—and therefore the show—into the future.

Assuming this is true, it puts a bow on a season that can be seen as a series of fixes and adjustments to address what were flagged as issues in the first season. Starting with the impressive season opener, we saw a new lighter tone and more sympathetic approach to the lead character of Michael Burnham. During the season more of these fixes have dropped in, including Klingon hair (and Klingons speaking English), the resurrection of Dr. Culber, more exploring, the dropping of Saru’s threat ganglia, plus other little adjustments along the way. De-prequeling the show could be the culmination of these course corrections.

Jumping the ship into the 33rd century—or any time well past the TNG era—will free up the show from having to fit in with another series. Who knows, they could also jump to a new location that has never been seen before, but the far future alone is a strange new world to explore. Will removing the Discovery from the year 2257 solve all issues of canon? Probably, but there is another possibility. With the power of time travel, they could go all the way and actually erase the adventures of the Discovery and its crew from the Prime universe altogether, perhaps by changing some events from Michael’s childhood so she never grew up on Vulcan. However, while taking this “Yesterday’s Enterprise” approach to all of Discovery might satisfy some who are most concerned with canon, it comes with a risk of disillusioning the fans who have supported the show and may not welcome it being erased from the Prime timeline, especially after being repeatedly told the show is part of that sacred canon.

I’ve seen the future, and fans can find something to complain about in any century

All I ask is a tall ship…

The first season ended with the surprising arrival of the USS Enterprise, generating a lot of buzz. But after being towed away in the season two opener, it seemed that the redesigned iconic ship wasn’t going to be a big factor in the second season. Having it return to play such a pivotal role in the two-part finale should ramp up the buzz again, especially since they spent the time and resources to build a bridge set and more of the interior.

The take on the bridge should prove as popular as the redesign for the ship’s exterior. It follows the same principals of honoring what came before while bringing it into the modern era and fitting with the style the show has set. There may be a lot of differences, but what was shown in “Such Sweet Sorrow” was both beautiful and unmistakably the bridge of the USS Enterprise. And they totally nailed the turbolift too, even down to the little direction handles. The signature lighting, sounds, and music only added to the authenticity of it all. High praise goes to everyone involved in making it happen.

With all this attention to detail, and clearly a lot of expense, you can already hear the Fan SpeculutronsTM warming up. Surely, you might ask, they didn’t go to all this trouble just for two episodes? It has already been reported that Anson Mount and Rebecca Romijn are not part of the third season—which makes sense if the Disco is headed to the future—but does that preclude seeing some adventures of the USS Enterprise somewhere else? At bare minimum they could knock off a Short Treks in a weekend, but how about a limited series event? Anson Mount’s turn as Captain Pike has been a resounding success and fans are clamoring for more. Of course, there already is a change.org petition imploring CBS for a Pike show, which was the most upvoted post on the Star Trek sub-Reddit today.

Ethan Peck recently told TrekMovie he would love the opportunity to do such a show and Anson Mount is clearly having a ball playing Pike. Clearly, there is an appetite. However, while there is something to be said for a good pander to the fans, CBS should only make that move if they have a solid idea and vision. And – somewhat ironically if they are indeed moving Discovery to a new era – they will need to have a plan on how to ensure it can fit with the canon of the era, being connected even closer to TOS. Another important consideration is putting together a creative team (and not one already spread too thin across the expanding Trek universe). With the Picard show set to start production this month and season three of Discovery starting in July, Alex Kurtzman already has his hands full. But hopefully, that beautiful Enterprise bridge set is being kept in showroom condition and could be used again when ready.

I’m gonna hold my breath until I get my own show

Can’t wait

“Such Sweet Sorrow” may only be half of the season finale, but it still delivered a solid and complete episode of Star Trek. With so much to cover and so many moving parts to put into place to both end this season and set up the next, you can see why they made the decision to extend it to two parts. While perhaps a bit padded to fill out the extended time given, this first part took on the task of satisfying a lot of character moments for the season (and the series), even bringing some closure. There was also a few contrivances and head-scratchers along the way in order to get the pieces into place and leave the second and final part to lean into the action and plot drama.

Without seeing the complete picture that writers Alex Kurtzman, Michelle Paradise, and Jenny Lumet—along with director Olatunde Osunsanmi—have put together, it is hard to come to a final judgment, but the story so far is compelling and engaging. The pacing is tight with framing that feels right for the moment at hand, with the exception of one scene which indulged in the spinning camera that has plagued the season. Given some extra time to fill, the visual effects team delivered with beauty shot after beauty shot of the USS Discovery and the USS Enterprise and their supporting craft prepping for what now promises to be an even more epic final battle in the second part.

While Sonequa Martin-Green continues to elevate the show with her performance, the episode elevated the entire ensemble, allowing for others to also shine including some guest stars like Mia Kirshner, who may have delivered her final performance as Amanda. And Anson Mount is not making it any easier to say goodbye.

All the pieces are in place for what looks to be an eventful final episode for this season, with an episode that ties together much of what has made this show better all year long.

Shouldn’t red alert trigger those flying Roombas? This place is a mess.

Random thoughts, connections, easter eggs, and more

  • This is the second Discovery writing credit for executive producer and co-creator Alex Kurtzman, who was credited as a co-writer for the series premiere, “The Vulcan Hello.”
  • This is producer Jenny Lumet’s first Discovery writing credit. She previously co-wrote (with Kurtzman) the Short Treks episode “Runaway,” which introduced the character of Po.
  • This is the second Discovery writing credit for co-writer Michelle Paradise, who joined the show for the second season and wrote the ninth episode (“Project Daedalus”), and was recently named as co-showrunner with Kurtzman for the third season.
  • This is the second episode of the season and fourth of the series for director Olatunde Osunsanmi. He was promoted to executive producer/director for the second season, so he is expected to maintain his lead in most times helming into the third season.
  • Enabling the auto-destruct on the USS Discovery just required the handprint verification of the captain (Pike) and first officer (Saru). While the spore drive might be considered more powerful, the auto-destruct triggered the more traditional warp core overload.
  • After all the protocol that Pike went through to take command of the USS Discovery in the season opener, his relinquishing of command of the Discovery and retaking command of the Enterprise was handled quite casually, with Cornwell merely saying “she’s all yours, Chris.”
  • In a bit of a wink to the audience and a callback to an earlier episode for the season, Number One reveals to Pike she has followed through on his earlier orders and there will be “no more holographic communications, ever” on board the USS Enterprise.
  • The USS Enterprise bridge crew included an unknown female alien (with a design that may be inspired by the Jem’Hadar) and a male officer with cybernetic headgear similar to what was seen previously on the USS Shenzhou, but this version is sleeker and has the lighter Constitution-class color scheme.
  • A display appears to show the USS Enterprise has a greater weapons range than the Discovery or the Section 31 ships, which makes sense due to the Constitution Class being considered the flagships for the fleet.
  • The exiled emperor Georgiou wasn’t exactly maintaining her cover as “Captain Georgiou” when she suggested igniting a supernova and dismissing how it would wipe out all life in neighboring systems.
  • As she says goodbye to Pike later she reveals she is a Terran from the Mirror Universe, with him indicating with a wink he knew all along and quipping “What’s a Mirror Universe?”
  • Expect a lot of dogfight action in the second part of the finale, as both the Discovery and Enterprise have fitted their complements of worker bees and shuttles with enhanced weapons to help out in the coming fight with the Section 31 fleet.
  • Tilly greets Po with a bowl of spumoni ice cream, which she first ate in “Runaway.” Po reveals that even with all her engineering skill she has failed to replicate spumoni on Xahea.
  • Reno calls Po’s calculations “E=mc2 stuff,” referencing Albert Einstein’s theory of special relativity.
  • Po says she needs a “Planck level” of energy for her plan, referencing Max Planck, the 20th-century theoretical physicist and father of quantum theory, indicating she is familiar with Earth’s history of science. Planck is also a unit of measurement in particle physics.
  • To maintain the canon of the TOS episode “Journey to Babel,” which stated that Sarek and Spock had not spoken for 18 years, Sarek reveals that even though he visited USS Discovery to say goodbye to Michael, he will keep his distance from Spock.
  • Sarek says he has kept this distance from Spock at Spock’s request, although in “Babel” it seemed that their estrangement stemmed from Sarek’s disapproval of Spock joining Starfleet.
  • The Red Angel under-suit is made from “polyphobic metamaterial,” which protects the wearer from radiation, temperature fluctuations, and blood clots.
  • While there was a tease where it seemed that Pike would make Saru the permanent captain of the Discovery, Saru cut him off, saying there are many things to consider. With the ship headed into the future, it made sense for Pike or Cornwell to settle the matter, perhaps leaving the moment for the finale, or even leaving open the chance someone else may be made captain.
  • The Section 31 fleet is comprised of a variety of ship types, including some smaller than Leland’s and a few larger 4-nacelle vessels.

Auto-destruct handprint verification

Two interesting USS Enterprise bridge officers

Display comparing Enterprise’s range to Discovery and Section 31 ship

The Enterprise and Discovery deploying small craft to help with the fight

Section 31 fleet


Star Trek: Discovery is available exclusively in the USA on CBS All Access. It airs in Canada on Space and streams on CraveTV. It is available on Netflix everywhere else.

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Nebula1701

wow!

This was the most convoluted piece of crap I’ve ever sat through… really hope it all pays off next week. I like the show, but man this was a horrible episode.

RonSalon

This is me eye-rolling.

FrostUK

I thought it was the worst of the season. Pretty visuals can’t save bad writing. The last 5 have all been awful though.

Brother – 7/10
New Eden – 8/10
Point of Light – 6/10
An Obol for Charon – 8/10
Saints of Imperfection – 6/10
The Sound of Thunder – 6/10
Light and Shadows – 6.5/10
If Memory Serves – 9/10
Project Daedalus – 4/10
The Red Angel – 4/10
Perpetual Infinity – 4/10
Through the Valley of the Shadows – 5/10
Such Sweet Sorrow – 3/10

Tucker

Spot on.

Ian Hitchcock

Great episode! Interesting prospect of the show going through a reset with a trip back to the future. I think it could be refreshing to finally spend some time in the post-Voyager trek universe.

Josiah Rowe

We’ll see the first season of Picard in that post-Voyager setting before we see wherever and whenever Discovery and her crew end up. But I get your point.

Holden

Enjoyable episode overall. There are still two more red bursts to go, though, so I’m assuming this season isn’t going to end as predictably as it seems (i.e., Discovery jumping into the future permanently). They took a convoluted way to get there, but it does seem to end up where a lot of people guessed.

If they jump into the future, would this invalidate the Zora theories? (meaning, she wasn’t “abandoned” as assumed?)

Didn’t Control get into the future too, as in the Pike/Tyler episode?

Obviously, Spock doesn’t stay on Discovery (or does he? At least for another season? But then how does he get back?)

Didn’t like how much time was spent on long goodbyes, especially when some of them might not turn out to be final.

Thorny

I’m guessing Spock beams to or otherwise boards one of the Section 31 ships to try and take down Control from within, allowing Discovery to escape to its far future.

Since Starfleet subspace comms are down, I’ll guess that Tyler is going to get L’Rell and the Klingons to come in and turn the battle against Section 31 just when all seems lost.

Holden

I like your L’Rell theory. Very GOT-ish! (actually, also sounds very much like the recent Orville episode :) )
But how would they reconcile that with the Federation-Klingon tensions in TOS? Maybe that’s where the S31 series comes in?

Thorny

It reminds me most of Picard having Worf arrange reinforcements in “The Defector”. But Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vail comes to mind, too.

Lukas

I didn’t think of that Thorny but I think you’re absolutely right about the Klingons showing up at the last minute to save the day.

Marja

Thorny, absolutely great idea! I hope it comes to pass!

Perhaps a rift between the Klingons and the Federation happens a few years later, with L’Rell being deposed by the House of Kor.

Corinthian7

Or maybe Spock beams back to Enterprise to disarm the unexploded photon torpedo embedded in the Enterprise hull.

Michael

That sounds interesting, but it would make more sense that Sarek brings back Star Fleet. His sudden appearance and equally sudden disappearance makes no sense. It was really quit an emotional outburst by Sarek to even make the trip. Hopefully there is a pay off for that.

Mina

However, Sarek was also involved in the later peace treaty with the Klingons and had some contact with the Klingons before. Considering that they don’t know which Federation ships are compromised by Control, the Klingons might be the safer option – also, even if they save the day, history might see it differently if the Federation will not admit what happened (after all, it’s Control and Section 31). So this might go down as some Klingons attacking Starfleet ships with only some select Enterprise crewmen in the know.

Corinthian7

Some interesting points @Holden I would think you’re right and that there are a few more twists and turns.

“If they jump into the future, would this invalidate the Zora theories?”

I find it hard to believe that this isn’t going to factor into the season finale but as others have pointed out we were never explicitly told WHEN the Discovery was abandoned so perhaps that could be part of a future storyline.

“Didn’t Control get into the future too, as in the Pike/Tyler episode?”

The probe that Pike and Tyler encountered was from a future in which Control had succeeded in wiping out all biological life. That can probably be considered an alternate timeline as we can assume the crew are going to be successful in putting the Prime Universe back on track.

“Obviously, Spock doesn’t stay on Discovery (or does he? At least for another season? But then how does he get back”

It would seem likely that something occurs prompting Spock to return to the Enterprise, possibly to disarm the unexploded torpedo embedded in the Enterprise’s hull. However, we all know that there’s a decent possibility that they’re going to pull a ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’ and if they do then it’s possible that Spock would become Discovery’s Tasha Yar ie he would just be another artefact from an erased timeline. The 23rd century would now have it’s own Spock who grew up not knowing Michael and presumably a discovery crew who don’t have a scientist onboard conducting experiments into the Mycellial network. I really hope that they don’t go this route as it would likely mean they aren’t planning an Enterprise based show as it would seem unlikely that they’d have Peck pulling double duty as two different versions of the character. However, a timeline reset has to be considered a possibility as it would explain why Pike’s decision to take the crystal set him on an unalterable course. Surely foreknowledge of an event meant he could avoid it? Unless of course that path meant that the timeline was going to be reset and he would forget all about his terrible fate.

JonBuck

The Enterprise’s interiors and soundscape were awesome. The door sounds, the turbolifts, the grilles in the corridors, all nice touches.

This season feels like Kurtzman decided to take all the fan criticisms of S1 and try and “fix” as many as he could without actually rebooting the show. Whether these fixes will be ultimately successful or not, I guess we’ll see next week.

I can say there’s one thing that really bothers me about this episode, though. Sarek couldn’t bring along whatever starships were in Vulcan orbit with him?

PEB

I think Kurtzman is doing what he always wanted, I dont necessarily think its about fan service. It’s more common sense than anything. Remember the reveal of ships by Bryan Fuller? Kurtzman doesnt seem the type to totally pull away from Trek aesthetics.

ML31

I’m not a huge fan of this Enterprise. Mainly because I’m not a fan of the Discovery aesthetic to begin with. But I will say the designers probably did the best they could since they were confined to the established Discovery style. I still sigh when I think about what could have been had they done this right from the beginning.

Captain Ransom

You mean making it look exactly like the set from 1966. *rolling eyes*

ML31

Why do people keep making that foolish assumption? (Facepalm)

Captain Ransom

Because you always mention adnauseum about how much you hate the Discovery aesthetic.

ML31

You have me confused with someone else. I never said I hated it. And even if I did, (which I don’t) there is no logic to assume that the desire for an exact duplication of TOS sets was conveyed in the comment.

Captain Ransom

You have actually written that you do not like the aesthetic of discovery.

ML31

Context is everything. Consider that next time you incorrectly attribute a comment to someone.

Michael Hall

I’d love to see your design sketches for such.

Marja

There are some design decisions that have made me roll my eyes, “fan service.” But I do like the soundscapes. Except for the very annoying [but old custom] Red Alert signal.

Man I can’t wait to hear “Black Alert” again

CmdrR

I love you all! I have no idea why I just blurted that out… it seems to have something to do with this episode.

Olaf

Haha, genius! :-)

Marja

We love you too. Are you moving to the future?

Tony Shillings

Pike! Pike! Pike! Pike! Did I mention…Pike!

A34

I was too busy watch Michael Burnham. She’s the star.

Young Picard

And Anson Mount deserves star status on his own Trek show. ;)

Olaf

If I ever see more of Michael Burnham, I’m gonna throw up big time. She’s just so unlikeable, unbelievable, bad-written, at-least-not-terribly-good-acted, shall I continue?

Holden

She’s a great actress. There’s no question about that. Even as I was annoyed by steady stream of goodbyes last night, I was totally sold on the heavy lifting she was asked to do. I think the issue is that the writers put too much on her character’s shoulders when bolstering the ensemble more would help everything. Making one character the center of everything in such a long, complex story is narratively counterproductive but it also makes for a difficult character to empathize with because their motivations are all over the place.

Marja

Holden, I think they’re getting more into the ensemble ethos now. I hope it continues.

I like the way they held the lantern up to Burnham’s central role in the show by saying she puts the burdens of the world on her own shoulders, that she takes on too much blame, &c. Good writing there. Character flaws are what make us … human. Or Vulcan

Jonboc

Agreed, Olaf. All she does is get teary eyed, cock her head like a confused puppy and whisper. All.the.time. Except of course, when she’s delivering one of her badly written, poorly delivered monotone speeches. I hope they send her to the 29th century’s and she stays there. She is the weakest link.

Olaf

But yeah, that hottie from Xahea is back! :-)

Gold Coast Rob

Err… nope. Maybe in theory, but the writing around her character’s poor. Outshone by Saru and definitely Pike.

Professor Spock

SPOCK!

Ad Astra Per Aspera

TILLY!

TonyD

That was interminable. And pointless as absolutely nothing happened. And flat because it made me realize I don’t care one iota about Burnham or any of the Discovery crew. About the only thing I did like was the Enterprise bridge. Hopefully I’ll get to see more of it … with another writing team at the helm.

A34

Cool story…

TonyD

Idiot plot.

– They already knew the the the sphere data would not allow itself to be deleted but still abandoned ship and tried to destroy Discovery before putting 2 and 2 together and realizing that it had integrated itself into Discovery’s computer.

– Also, if the sphere had integrated itself into Discovery’s computer why did it let the countdown get to zero before revealing that it would not allow itself to be destroyed?

– Here’s a thought: since the sphere data is obviously intelligent and capable of defending itself and understanding threats to its existence, why not try communicating with it and explaining the situation instead of constantly acting like it’s not even there.

– Cornwell knows there’s a threat, yet decides to come along for the ride but doesn’t bother to tell Starfleet to send any ships along with Enterprise.

– No. 1 upgraded all those shuttles but didn’t bother to tell anyone at the starbase where Enterprise was being repaired about what going on.

– Sarek senses thru his Skype-Katra with Burnham what she will do and rushes to her to say good-bye but conveniently forgets to mention the impending conflict to Starfleet or even Vulcan’s defenses.

– Inane technobabble that allows the crew to magically construct a new red angel suit in a couple of hours and conveniently construct a containment matrix for the time crystal in about 30 minutes, with spare parts just lying about.

– Still trying to figure out just how control managed to co-opt all those Section 31 ships. You’d think they would have been alerted to its abilities a while ago; Georgiou’s ship obviously hasn’t been compromised.

I could go on and on and on and on …

The show looks slick, the production design and effects are great but the writing is sloppy, lazy and downright amateurish.

Holden

TonyD ftw.

Tiger2

Gotta agree Tony. The episode was fine but it had TONS of problems lol. I mean so many I don’t even want to get into it so I won’t appear overly negative. But I did like the episode, but mostly because we finally got a great look of the Enterprise and everything that is being set up. But if I’m being honest, hardly any of it make a real lick of sense if you think hard enough about it.

But if its setting us up for a post-Nemesis timeline show next season, then they can make any gobbly gook up to get there, I don’t care. ;)

JMP11

The only thing that saved this episode was the Enterprise sets. I felt no emotion when the crew made their decision to stay with Michael… The episode had way too many plot holes…

PEWDIEPICARD

What crew? I have no idea who those people are. Didn’t the Airiam replacement like just show up?

Ad Astra Per Aspera

You haven’t been watching the series at all have you? Or you have and you are just clutching at straws to find something to whine about. Sad.

TonyD

My problem is that I HAVE been watching.

Burnham is the most irritating, arrogant, unlikable lead in a Trek series yet. Other than possibly Saru, the rest of the bridge crew are almost total strangers; why should I care about any of them? When the crew of TOS literally signed off at the end of TUC we had been following their adventures for 25 years; their farewells resonated for that reason. No one one on this show has earned that and the scenes of them giving their endless farewells were cringe-inducing and dramatically flat for that reason. Not to mention the fact that we know they’re returning next season, which makes it all even more disingenuous an manipulative.

The only people clutching at straws are those who would defend such lackluster storytelling.

Lukas

You forgot insubordinate, look at the way other CO’s pulled up insubordinate officers, she just shoots her mouth off whenever.

See Gambit part 2 when Data pulls Worf up in the ready room for expressing frustration with his orders in public.

And that’s just one example.

TonyD

Her insubordination has been brought up so many times already that I just didn’t want to beat that horse any more. But yes, I agree completely, anybody who acts so disrespectfully the way she does towards her superiors, no matter how smart she may be, would be immediately disciplined, dismissed and probably confined.

Marja

Well, that’s TNG, and, I guess, TOS. Kirk was constantly insubordinate to admirals, which, as long as it worked out, was A-OK.

But yes, I swear if I hear “I can’t do that, sir” from Burnham [even Spock!] one more flippin’ time I’m going to scream really loud. But I am former military.

The problem, again, is lack of time for a quick scene where the captain pulls [whichever officer] into the Ready Room to dress them down. Then of course there’d be the defense, “but it worked” with the nod and the sigh and the “don’t pull that crap again” from the captain, so, a scene that basically wouldn’t advance the story but would enhance and strengthen the character of the captain[s].

I miss Lorca. His scene with Stamets in Medical when Stamets said, “I didn’t sign on to this ship [to play a part in war]” and Lorca said, “Then get off.” “Then I’m taking all my research &c. with me!” “Everything on this ship is the property of Starfleet.” was a highlight of Season 1 for me! Lorca was MILITARY. My god, what a refreshing captain he was … until, you know, The Big, Regrettable Reveal.

Mina

Well, strictly speaking, Starfleet is not military (in contrast to the Terran military…). But I agree about Michael. That scene when she threw a tantrum because Pike wouldn’t let her speak with her mother was extremely grating, and made it even more clear she is getting her way all the time, so much that they somehow thought it would make sense to have her character have a fit because it doesn’t happen this time (I was cheering for Pike). How is that supposed to make her likeable? She just looks like a spoiled brat. With a secondary character it might be acceptable (they would be the character we would all like to fail spectacularly at some point), but in the lead its just annoying, because we know the writing will somehow justify it and she has to win in the end. Unless she will fail spectacularly at some point which will be the reason noone talks about her ever again.

ML31

The problem with Michael being right all the time is that she never learns anything. The character never has an obstacle to overcome. She mutinies (or I guess it isn’t being called that) but really didn’t learn anything from it and everyone loved her due to some off screen events in just a couple of episodes. There was no way for the audience to really get involved or behind Burnham the way the show presented her. And the actress is not good enough to make a bland character watchable. She has no charisma.

LOFC_Ed

It’s not a fact it is bad storytelling and Burnham is irritating….it is your opinion. Remember to mention that.

Well, yes, it is subjective. But it matters if that is a widespread view – because shows live and die on the subjective opinion of audience whether or not it is wotrth it to watch the show. And I think while the bulk of the audience loves much of the show, they set the thing up with a bright, well regarded young actress in Sonequa Martin-Green – and from worshiping her or just wanting to get their moneys worth, they made her into a neurotic Mary Sue and the “ST Discovery” changed to the “Michael Burnham Show.”
This is meant to be an ensemble show. Not a show where 6/7ths of the show revolves around one character. And sorry, that character has many irritating aspects – extremely self centered, irritating, always knows best so that excuses insubordination. And Sonequa herself, in the heat of all those minutes writers wanted her to fill, often overacts or over-emotes. It’s rare, but the ‘mute’ button is used when a minute of heartfelt emotion becomes 2 and then three and you think I can’t take other minute of Michael talking the trials and tribulations of Michael and the mute goes on until the scene changes or I see her lips stop flapping.

Marja

There were three main characters in Star Trek and four secondary characters. Kirk, Spock, McCoy. Uhura, Scotty, Sulu, Chekov. Or Chapel. You got to know them over Season 1 [26 episodes], and more in the subsequent seasons.

There are five main characters in Discovery and a number of secondary characters. Burnham, Saru, Stamets, Culber, and the captain [whoever]. Secondary: TyVoq, Georgiou, Cornwell, L’Rell, Owosekun, Detmer, [Ariam].
Background: Dr. Pollard, Bryce, Rhys, Nielssen, Klingon of the month, et. al. We’ve had 26 episodes to get to know most of them, which you would if you paid very close attention.

But you were probably really busy following the crowded plots which run forward breathlessly, and trying to see if the technobabble made any kind of sense, so that’s quite understandable. Personally I always have to do a re-watch to “get” the whole thing.

ML31

Marja, Discovery has ONE main character. 4 secondary characters and a bunch of day players.

Thorny

PEWDIEPICARD… “Didn’t the Airiam replacement like just show up?”

We saw her in the New Eden episode, I think. The ship must have other crew, the familiar faces can’t be on duty 24/7. She was probably B-Shift moved up to A-Shift after Airiam’s demise.

Tiger2

I’m sorry, but the entire crew deciding they are going to all stay together to jump to god knows what century for Michael just felt a bit ridiculous. How long have they all been together? Maybe a year? Ok, one or two, sure, but nearly EVERYONE???? They are all going to leave loved ones to some completely foreign place so Michael won’t feel alone?

Of course we get it, they want to keep the cast together, but maybe they should’ve just done something like accidentally pulling the ship in to wherever its going.

Olaf

This!

kmart

Sounds like they are forcing this thing along to a preordained conclusion that wasn’t earned. Viewers wouldn’t be questioning things if all these factors had been EFFECTIVELY contrived. (In fact, this sounds kind of like one of the E-D’s in ALL GOOD THINGS, the one with Yar aboard, where the crew elect to follow Picard even though they don’t know him yet — except the audience went for that — probably because the writing was better and the show had a history of some success by that point.)

Ensign Crusher

I was thinking they try to set the ship to autopilot or what not and autopilot fails. They need the principals they want to stay on to beam aboard discovery to ensure the mission’s success.

ML31

Tiger, I found that kinda eye rolling as well. It would have played better had the ship going forward been some sort of unintended consequence of defeating the AI. Then we could get people being irritated with their situation next season. Good writers could use that. (If only Discovery had some)

TG47

I’ve been struggling with this too Tiger2.

I understand intellectually why Saru, Stamets and Tilly would go with her.

Saru was a refugee with loyalty to the Federation and Burnham, and having resolved the fate of his people, can go forward.

Stamets is still drawn by the spores and Discovery as the one remaining experimental ship.

Tilly’s journey to self-esteem has been supported by Burnham and Saru.

BUT – they aren’t following her for her leadership skills, and we don’t know why the rest are coming along other than they’ve been through so much together since the time of Lorca.

Burnham is not and has not shown herself to be a leader that others will follow through fire.

Kirk was, and Picard, Sisko and Janeway. Discovery has shown us how Pike was, and even the Prime Georgiou…. But not Burnham.

The thing is…… I really wanted to like Burnham from the start.

And somehow I very much did like her, in spite of the inconsistencies in the way her character has been written.

In fact, for the longest time, I felt more resonance with her than I ever did with Janeway (who I respected but took a long time to like).

But somehow from that moment in Project Daedalus when she was all consumed with trying to save Airiam – – while completely forgetting about Nhan, and not really valuing the personal sacrifice Airiam was offering for the greater good, I lost respect for Burnham.

I stopped caring.

So, during the Red Angel and Perpetual Infinity, instead of empathizing with Burnham’s anguish over her birth family’s trauma and her desire to have her mother back, I kept on thinking how self-absorbed she was.

I stopped believing that she was growing and evolving into a great officer during the course of her journey.

And I started to look for the moments she wasn’t on-screen (except for her interactions with Spock which still had chemistry).

I remember feeling this way about Archer in Enterprise…and many did.

But unlike Baluka’s Archer, I think that SMG was an excellent choice for Burnham. It’s not in any way the quality of SMG’s acting that’s the issue : by contrast, I think it was her acting that kept me liking Burnham as long as I did.

From what I hear on this board and others, many fans have had different moments when it’s become ‘too much’ or Burnham has done one more thing that they can can’t respect…

So, I put it out to others and to TPTB, what needs to happen in season 3 to salvage Burnham’s development as a character…

Or like Prime Georgiou, do we despair ….?

ML31

TG47, I think the problem is twofold. First, the character was badly written. Most actors just are not good enough to overcome that obstacle. Stewart is such a good and charismatic actor that he was able to make a dull and uninteresting Picard watchable. But most don’t have that charisma so that’s not bash on SMG. I also feel like she may not be the best person for that part. If feels like every scene she plays she over does it in one direction or the other. I don’t know how much of that is her choice or is the director telling her more is required. Either way, it does not translate well to the viewer.

TG47

Good point…

It’s hard to know how much of this is due to direction.

The push for melodramatic acting in Nemesis is one of the things that made me reject it.

All it took was turning Marina Sirtis’ Troi into a wet rag emotional wreck to turn me off the whole thing.

ML31

i’m not sure it’s a great idea to bring up Troi, one of the few characters in all of Trek to be worse than Burnham, to a discussion of how the Burnham character is not presented well. I mean, Sirtis’ Troi was a “wet rag emotional wreck” long before Nemesis. And don’t forget worthless.

Dave

It was contrived and predictable. Plot holes aside, it was the point of the episode where I went from engaged to no longer interested.

Alan

Wow. Yeah the show is dumb. Don’t even get me started on the enterprise abandoning holograms because they render a starship inoperable.

That’s akin to saying ok Apple Car Play is preventing you from driving your new Toyota, so you have to install a cassette player in order to use your car. I.T. seems to be pretty incapable in the future.

JMP11

I totally agree.

ML31

Yes, Alan. That was just silliness. It was a dumb way to explain why Kirk never used holograms. Which again, dumb. First, it doesn’t explain why no one else uses them and also, why would Kirk not just order them to be reinstalled and have his new chief engineer fix the issues that no other star ship seems to have? But again, this goes back to bad decisions made in season 1 that are likely going to continue to plague this show.

Jonboc

Why is this show so concerned about holograms not fitting into Kirk’s bridge when they show complete disregard for everything else on Kirk’s watch? It’s as ridiculous as that abomination of the 1701 bridge.

Tiger2

You’re not happy with the bridge Jonboc? You have to admit it at least looks closer to the original as opposed to the Kelvin’s E bridge.

kmart

If Scotty was truly a miracle worker, he could probably get holograms to work on the ship without crashing the mains.

Micah

I agree with TonyD wholeheartedly. I loved the new Enterprise bridge, but every bit of Discovery’s plot and dialogue makes me cringe. This season, more so than the last perhaps, has been riddled with mediocre writing and magical plot developments. I also could not stand Hali Po, who magically could do everything that Discovery needed.

The actors are great, but damn, they really need better writers to support them.

PEWDIEPICARD

I like science.

FrostUK

I was pretty bored watching it to be honest. I mostly enjoyed Season 2 up until “Project Daedalus”, then it started to lose its way, though it did have occasional flashes of greatness (Pike’s future) it was mostly convoluted and tedious.

The future sequence when Leland killed the bridge crew was hilariously stupid. He shoots a couple of people and they fall down and die, then he shoots Saru with the same weapon and he’s blown half way across the room. I almost burst out laughing at the stupidity of that scene. Didn’t realise I was watching Hot Fuzz.

ML31

I’m wondering why nobody gets vaporized. Seems like it would have been pretty handy when shooting at those Terminators earlier.

Fred Javelina

I was waiting for Michael to hit the Omega 13, myself :)

Lukas

My problem with Po is that she doesn’t act Alien at all, she’s like a 17 year old millennial human girl. Actually write some cultural backstory for the character and have her act a certain way. Something more alien than an instagram hoe.

Fred Javelina

Millennials are currently between 23-37 years old. With kids and cars and mortgages. I think you mean Generation Z (anyone born 1997-onwards, which still means they’re at most 22 now?)

Boze

She’s acting like a millennial because that’s how the writers think the young people act. That inevitably happens whenever an older, out-of-touch writer attempts to write a “hip young” character. ;)

FrostUK

I bet the reason she’s staying is because her planet and her people couldn’t wait to get rid of her :D

Lukas

You’re right but you got my point in the end lol!

PEWDIEPICARD

BRAVO!

Also, if they go to the future why can’t they go to Boreth and get another time crystal? Charge that sucker up and come back home (not that i’m encouraging that). I mean they have a ship, a suit, Burnhamom. OR if Starfleet is in tact then they have the ability to time travel so just go with them. Heck Starfleet may even roll up and say get the hell out of here don’t mess up our timeline.

Such a joke.

Kevin Lee

How did Control affect Enterprise’s sub-space communications? It had access to Discovery previously but not Enterprise. Shouldn’t Sarek’s craft have sub-space communication as well?

ML31

I think Sarek’s shuttlecraft is equipped with a spore drive. How else can they get there before before Enterprise at maximum warp from much much further away?

Thomas W.

Because the the writers of Discovery believe that a lightyear is a distance of about 4 miles… I have never seen such bad writing before and suddenly think ST5 have had a smart script. Do they read and discuss the scripts before shooting? The last 5 episodes have been complete nonsens.

Quarks pre owned tribbles

I believe that the subspace relays (the ones stationed throughout federation space) were knocked out by control.

Fred Javelina

IIRC they made the mistake of routing all communications *through* Control so it could have as near-real-time updated information from the fleet to feed its AI analyses. Thus, it started to filter (and later, fake) communications to serve its own ends.

Jeff Graw

I absolutely loved what they did with the Enterprise interiors, that much put a smile on my face. But that’s about the only redeeming thing I can say about this episode.

FLB

Quote from TonyD :

“Here’s a thought: since the sphere data is obviously intelligent and capable of defending itself and understanding threats to its existence, why not try communicating with it and explaining the situation instead of constantly acting like it’s not even there”

… Because that would be too much Star Trek? Like ‘Arena’ (TOS), ST: TMP or ‘Home Soil’ (TNG, Season 1)?

Ensign Crusher

Because in TV today/culture today, we shoot first ask questions later. Same in the Marvel movies, etc. We’ve just completely normalized violence over diplomacy.

TG47

I wish that TPTB had more faith in the Federation ideals and Trek positivism.

Going with the violence-first solution in season 1 to bring in a younger audience immersed in Marvel, made sense in order to show them that there is another, better way…

…that using the mind, science, and pure effort to understand and overcome those different from us is important

…that working a problem, challenging eachother’s ideas and assumptions, and not running off with the first solution that the loudest voice puts forward gives better outcomes.

But the latter half of season 2 are demonstrating that the new showrunners – Kurtzman and Paradise – don’t get this even if some of the writers in the room do.

Thomas W.

True.

Mina

Might still happen. Somehow Discovery gained a personality in that Short Trek, which had agreed to staying in one place alone. Right now they are probably not to keen on another artificial intelligence making its own decisions.

Tiberius

I couldn’t agree more. Sloppy writing. Inconsistencies. On a previous episode they beam down multiple crew members and giant pieces of equipment all at once to trap the red angel. Now we have exit ramps connecting two ships to evacuate the ship. A lot of these episodes are just to take up time but the. Episodes feel so rushed. A well placed “captain’s log” sequence can help show that time has passed but yet with “control” just 56 minutes away there’s time for pike to change uniforms, Sarek to visit and leave without any backup, and everyone to say goodbye 5,000 times. So many one dimensional characters without any growth. Had high hopes for Jet Reno, but alas hasn’t presented a whole lot.

BLACKMOCCO

This x 1000. Any potential drama regarding the showdown is diluted by over-written, poorly-paced and unearned sentimental nonsense. Again: we either don’t care for – in Burnham’s case – or don’t know enough about – pretty much the entire rest of the crew – these characters to spend half an episode saying goodbye to one another.

Last weeks episode ending: “Leland’s fleet is here. There’s no other way: we have to destroy the ship”

1/3 of this week’s episode: “Leland’s fleet is an hour away. We have to leave the ship. Goodbye Discovery. We’re so sad to leave you. What should I bring with me? Hugs, tears, montage, more hugs. Oh wait, we don’t have to leave Discovery after all. Let’s all go back.”

1/3 of this episode: “Leland’s fleet is an hour away. The magic spacesuit that can do anything and someone spent their entire life researching and building? Yeah, we can build one in ten minutes. Let’s do that.” Also, something incoherent going on in engineering.

1/3 of this episode: “Leland’s fleet is an hour away. Burnham, you are the chosen one to do the magic suit jump thing, and we’ll never, ever see you again. Sad. Goodbye. Hugs, tears, more hugs. I love you all. Oh wait, we’re all coming with you!”

ML31

That is yet another thing. They can recreate the suit in 30-40 minutes? Yes, her mom did it already but it took her years and years to come up with what she did. And I don’t think she left a schematic behind in her logs.

Michael Hall

Cute. But, see Stephen King’s rundown of the plot of “Hansel and Gretel” in Danse Macabre if you really think you’re being strictly fair here.

Lukas

This guy gets it. Thanks for typing that so I didn’t have to. Agreed on all points.

ML31

Every single one of those questions are legit. I kinda enjoyed the episode in spite of all that, however. I’m forced to admit that I did like the feeling of jeopardy it created. But those plot problems… Yeah. And again, it wouldn’t matter as much if I cared about Burnham even just a little.

And season 2 is STILL better than season 1.

Roberto Suarez

Does Discovery have unlimited shields? Because otherwise, why didn’t Enterprise just shoot everything at it until its shields were down and then destroy it?

SpiderBat

Thank you for summarizing nearly everything wrong with this episode. I’m watching it thinking “Are people buying this? Does this make ANY sense? Am I crazy??” Add to that the ridiculous notion that if ControlDisco won’t let itself be blown to bits, why not just pull a HAL and lock out everyone who just left the ship and warp away? Or just fry all the control panels so they couldn’t attempt their cockamamie time jump? Bad writing that just assumes if they talk fast enough, and throw enough garbage at you, people won’t notice the plot holes. SO frustrating to watch as a one-time, hopefully-still-someday, fan of the show.

Commander K

Would you consider listing the plot holes in every other star trek episode , because they all had them, especially the original series

ML31

That is true. Almost no story stands up to magnifying glass scrutiny. Even WoK, what many feel to be the best feature Trek film ever, had plot holes. That said, TOS wasn’t trying to set up any kind of extended universe. The reset button was hit after each episode. It was just a different context.

For me at least, I know the episode is not working if I see all the plot holes while I am watching for the first time. If I’m wrapped in the story then I’m not seeing those holes. Sure I see them on repeated viewings but it’s easy to see them then.

Alan Light

I feel bad you can’t share the joys and excitement of loving the new iteration of Star Trek. Must be depressing for you. You should maybe give up on Star Trek for a while. Find something you can post positively about. I suggest you try a few Nick Jr. shows.

Ad Astra Per Aspera

Ooh snap!

Some people will just complain for the sake of it, clinging to a dated formula of Star Trek and unwilling to embrace change. I feel sorry for them.

khambattafan

Ha, TonyD made a list of objectively idiotic story beats that have nothing to do with a “dated formula” or fear of change. Your attempt at a rebuttal is flimsy deflection. Little on Discovery holds together if one thinks about it, which then makes the regular attempts at sappy, tug-on-the-heartsrings audience manipulation fall even flatter. “Cheap” is the word used by the critic at A.V. Club.

TonyD

And some people will defend anything with the “Star Trek” moniker slapped on it, no matter how insulting the writing is, with vague putdowns and veiled insults instead of even trying to offer an actual, reasoned rebuttal. I feel sorry for them.

TrekFan67

Tony… why are you watching? Maybe Orville will be more your speed.

TonyD

I’ve invested this much time in Discovery; I will see it thru to the end of this season. After that, who knows. As to The Orville, I tried a few episodes and it just did not resonate with me at all.

Discovery is not valueless; there have been good episodes and good performances along the way and I do like the look of the show. I’m not afraid to praise it when it’s earned. But the way Burnham is written and comes off on screen is just off-putting to me and much like last season the writing seems to be failing the show at the worst possible time as it approaches the endgame of the season.

Gold Coast Rob

…or maybe more ethereal..

Ad Astra Per Aspera

As opposed to hate watching a television show solely to whine about how you hate it so much and rudely dismissing anybody who dares to disagree with your “opinions as fact” mentality? Okay sweetie, go off if you need to. You’re a nasty little playground bully. What’s next? “If you like Discovery you are not a real fan?”

If you want a rebuttal the fine, I’ll give you one. This season has really put the focus on the characters. Every moment in this episode was earned across the Season. I am emotionally invested in these characters because the writers and the actors have made us care about them. I haven’t felt this attached to a group of characters since DS9. That’s why I disagree with your opinion and object to your needlessly abusive and bullying tone, TonyD. I can respect somebody for having another point of view, but when people are nasty and hateful.

Instead of outright demeaning and insulting people with different opinions than yourself might I suggest you grow up and get over yourself. Until you do, I will not engage any longer with your need to boost yourself up by dragging others down to your level. Take care, hon.

ML31

Ad, I’m glad you have felt connected to the characters. I am wondering how that is. I haven’t felt like they have made any effort to get the audience to care about them. Yet you have. What was it they did that grabbed you? Was it the one or two 1 minutes scenes of them eating together? Was it the camaraderie they displayed when they parroted back the captain’s orders? And what is it about Burnham that fascinates you? On paper I felt like the character had potential but just didn’t see it when she was put on screen. What was it that you found interesting in Burnham that a lot of others didn’t?

Michael Hall

Ah. In the guise of asking a person why they might like and appreciate something you don’t — nothing wrong with that, we all have different tastes — you pose a series of leading “questions” that are actually more a species of trolling. How condescending, and how childish.

ML31

Instead of trying to have an actual discussion where the questions raised get answered and discussed, you decide to be condescending and childish for reasons only you can know. Sad for you.

PEWDIEPICARD

Hate watching is my new word. Thank You. Here is how I will use it:

I hate watching Discovery. The only reason I watch it is because I enjoy hating meaningless things.

J.S.

” I suggest you try a few Nick Jr. shows.”

Red alert, we have a proper edgelord here

khambattafan

I suggest you try the movie “I Was a Zombie Cheerleader.”

KevinA Melbourne Australia

Here Here Alan Light – So much negativity – I’m having a ball – plot holes and all!

Alan Light

Me, too, Kevin. I actually feel bad for the people who don’t get the joy and excitement we have watching each week.

kmart

AlanLight,
It’s supposed to be about the content, not the poster. Having said that … perhaps you should try watching some really good TREK content like TOS or DS9 in order to gain new perspective.

Alan Light

I’m 60 years old and have lived through all of Star Trek. Nothing will ever beat TOS and the Kirk/Spock/McCoy characters. But even TOS had similar plot holes and writing issues of Discovery. Sometimes you have to go along with ride and just enjoy the characters and acting. Wasn’t a big fan of DS9, but didn’t waste my time and energy posting on multiple web sites why I didn’t like it and making people who did like it feel like they weren’t true Star Treks fans. IDIC is the most basic theme of Star Trek. More fans should try to live it…

Captain Ransom

Well said Alan!

kmart

If you’re invoking IDIC, then your comment I responded to makes even less sense, since you’re attempting to belittle somebody espousing a different viewpoint. You’re only a couple years older than me, so you can’t claim it is the years — it must be how the mileage shaped you.

HydraPickle

It’s okay. We all have a little Vulcan inside us that we use to suppress emotions. It’s okay to cry. Here’s my shoulder. :)

Professor Spock

Great episode, I like the Enterprise bridge. I can’t wait for part two!

Elrond

Excellent episode! Still several loose ends to be explored, including why Po is still onboard. Looking forward to the grand finale.

Holden

I’m assuming Po is joining the crew next season.

JMP11

yay. I feel like she’s another Tilly, one is ok, but two?

PEWDIEPICARD

Oh hell no…

Tiger2

I see a lot of hair braiding scenes happening between those two next season.

Captain Ransom

That was a pretty sexist thing to say.

Lukas

I think his statement was more meant to reflect they both act like children who have no place on a Starship as opposed to having an issue with them being women…..

Tiger2

Thank you Lukas! Exactly what I meant.

Danpaine

Ha! True, Tiger.

Tiger2

;D

Alan Light

IDIC doesn’t only apply to race and cultures, it can apply to personalities. Don’t be bigoted about how someone acts and talks. I suspect your circle of friends is very small.

Holden

“I suspect your circle of friends is very small.” Personal attacks are not really IDIC.

Lukas

Err not really, have you ever been in the Military or any sort of uniformed service organisation or Department? There are pretty stringent psych evaluations for such organisations. Someone like Tilly wouldn’t get into any of them.

ML31

She’s already more interesting than Tilly.

Spiked Canon

please no

Trek in a Cafe

That was really good. It pushed everything to the limit, stuck to it’s comic-meta guns, and left me on the edge of my seat. I think in the future there will be a rotating captaincy. Who needs badges? Not us!

J_Randomuser

The Enterprise bridge looked GREAT. Super stoked for next week. Now if only they can keep the weepy speeches in dire situations to a minimum…..

PEWDIEPICARD

Just forward through them like i did.

Niclovestrek

I like it. I am excited for the conclusion. I loved Michael simple good to the Discovery crew!

Josiah Rowe

Re: the final image of the Section 31 ships surrounding Discovery and Enterprise: “His pattern suggests two-dimensional thinking,” which is a bit odd for such a supposedly advanced AI.

Kevin Lee

Not just two-dimensional thinking but a circular firing squad at that.

Thorny

Well, Control’s first attempt will be to demand Discovery’s surrender. So this is an intimidation move, I’d say. After all, Control can’t just destroy the Discovery… it wants the sphere data contained within.

ST:EXP

Is it revealed yet why Discovery was drawn to the Beta Quadrant and why a Red Angel saved the World War III colony (New Eden)? Does this tie into the finale next week as an unexpected element?

Who is responsible for the bursts hasn’t yet been revealed.

Yes we know why there are people pulled from WWIII. Dr. Burnham says she did it to see if the changes she was making to the timeline (before being snapped back) would stick.

JASON L WRIGHT

Michael’s mother saved the World War III colony (bringing it to the planet that she’s tethered to as her homebase) as a test to see if changing the timeline was possible, or something to that effect. It was mentioned in one of her logs before Michael was well enough to see her mother in person.

ST:EXP

Yes. But that doesn’t explain why that colony was one of the *key* group of Red Signals Discovery was drawn to.

As Mom was was explaining that fact in the video logs… she did hundreds of jumps and trials and permutations. There are not hundreds of red signals.

There are just the key 7 signals. The whole season is based around these 7 signals… each of the 7 signals is a key piece of the puzzle and makes Discovery complete a key task. Why is that planet one of them?

Mom’s hundreds of other tests and trials are not part of the 7 key bursts.

ie: A burst lead Discovery to save Saru’s evolution and make him super-duper. Another burst draws them to go collect the time crystal, etc.

So WHY that planet???… because they needed to turn the church lights on???

ThatNuttyFanboy

Might be as simple as teaching the Discovery crew that they can make a difference, and to trust the Red Bursts to be a benign phenomenon rather than a portent of doom.

ST:EXP

Well, maybe, but that surrrrre would seem to be a boatload of effort and a roundabout way for her to relay that pretty deep philosophical message(?)

And perhaps it demonstrates the suit’s undisclosed Q-level super-powers of transporting an entire church full of people across time and space.

ThatNuttyFanboy

I keep getting flashbacks to the TNG episode ‘Cause and Effect’. They couldn’t send a direct message in the next loop, having to plant a short message in Data’s subconscious.

Might be that the (actual) Red Angel appearances was always Dr. Burnham, and the replacement suit Michael wears is only able to do this one-way trip with Discovery – and once there, the only way to communicate with the past is by generating a red burst, without actually being able to send a proper message, or actually physically travel there.

Dave

And the burst to save Child Michael Burnham from the creature. If Michael Burnham is Red Angel 2 and is the one that sent the signals, as Red Angel 1 stated she knew nothing of the signals, how did future Michael Burnham save Child Michael Burnham from death when there would have been no future Michael Burnham Red Angel 2 to save her?

Even if possible it seems a bit self-serving.

Josiah Rowe

I don’t think there was a red burst associated with the Angel Gabrielle’s visit to Vulcan. That was all Angel Mom. The bursts we’ve seen so far fall into three categories: either helping/saving Discovery crew (the asteroid, Kaminar), helping with the mission against Control (Boreth, Xahea), or simply helping Discovery save lives (Terralysium). Remember, without Discovery the radioactive debris would have killed all those settlers, so they didn’t just show up to turn the church lights on.

noraa

I could not stop smiling during the entire opening scene on the Enterprise! Production team did an awesome job. Especially loved the turbolift.

Cannot wait until next week! Unlike last year, this season seems to be ending with a bang.

Tiger2

Agreed. The Enterprise looked amazing! I’m sure most of the hardcore TOS fans were salivating lol. They really should’ve went this direction with the Kelvin movies. May have gotten less scorn* over it too.

*May have

ML31

I’m a pretty hardcore TOS fan and while I kinda liked what I saw, I felt it was limited to what they could do because they had to stick to the already established Discovery aesthetic. They did about as good a job as they could considering their severe limitations. It really only made me feel like it could have been a lot better.

Tiger2

Well that’s fair. Although I don’t know how different it would’ve looked if it wasn’t Discovery. Maybe a bit less shiny lol.

ML31

I’m no designer but I would imagine it wouldn’t have been as dark and perhaps there would be less room on upper level between the railing and the stations. And a handful of other bits. I do want to repeat that I think they nailed the uniforms. Why wasn’t Cromwell wearing one? In fact, if they stay in this time, the Discovery people ought to be switching to them as well. At least that was implied in the dialog earlier this season.

Tiger2

The uniform thing is just really bizarre lol. Just another example there was probably never any thought to have TOS uniforms until season 2 because for some strange reason we have ONLY seen the Enterprise crew wear them and no place else including upper Starfleet brass like Admiral Cromwell. When Pike said they got the new upgrades I assume it was being worn by Starfleet headquarters now at least but doesn’t seem to be the case. ;)

UFP Public Affairs

Usually I am of the “Don’t worry about the details, just enjoy the show” mindset. But here’s what’s bothering me: To travel into the future, why do we even NEED a time crystal? Simply traveling at sublight speed, approaching the speed of light (turning off whatever Trek do-hicky suppresses Einstein’s time dilation principle) would put the Discovery some 800 years into the future in what may be just days onboard the ship. And if that’s the case, what would prevent Control from doing the same thing to chase the Sphere Archive into the future?

Hat Rick

The people aboard would also be 800 years older.

kmart

Only by the calendar, Rick. That’s how relativity works, and why the brother paradox is such that if you had twins, and launched one in a photon drive vessel (capable of 99.99+% of lightspeed) at another star system, he would be only a few months older when he arrived, while his brother would be seriously aged or dead.

Using relativity would be a daring and smart concept for any science fiction show … am betting they never thought of it for this one. Vonda McIntyre’s ENTERPRISE novel from the 80s postulated that Rand was actually younger than her calendar age owing to being stuck on a ship traveling at relativistic speeds, as I recall (am thinking the author never saw early aired TREK, because you wouldn’t think Grace Lee Whitney, who was a Shatner/Nimoy contemporary, was 16 or 18 going by TOS in a million standard OR relativistic years.)

ThatNuttyFanboy

One of the Star Trek Destiny novels did this with the NX-02 Columbia. Crippled by a Romulan vessel in the opening shots of the Earth-Romulan War, with no Warp Drive or Subspace comms. So they decide to use the Impulse engines to get to relativistic speeds to get to a nearby inhabited world.

ML31

I read somewhere some time ago that relativity was just something they didn’t want to ever touch on in Star Trek. It would just be too confusing and ruin a lot of plots. In fact, the star date was created to get around that. It was only relative to shipboard time. Not actual time in the universe or on planet or something.

Fred Javelina

Warp drive is literally a shortcut around relativity, because the ship itself never moves at relativistic speeds; its local spacetime frame is essentially static, contained in a bubble which then moves along a gravimetric gradient at faster-than-light speeds.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-warp-drive-work-on-Star-Trek/answer/Dan-Holliday

Hat Rick

Point taken, kmart. Thank you for reminding me of that fact.

PostAtomicHorror

Impulse engines exploit a subspace effect to allow higher sub-light speeds. It’s never been clear if that aspect of the propulsion system can be circumvented. If it were, the impulse engines would basically just be fusion-powered rockets. Would they be able to produce the acceleration needed to get to relativistic speeds? More importantly, would they be able to reach those speeds before the ship ran out of deuterium? Even with subspace augmentation, it’s been mentioned on-screen that the impulse engines can run out of fuel.

Tony

Good thought, but what about something more basic – spore jump to another Galaxy. Control does not have a Stamets to navigate. Also, why do they need a time crystal, Stamets brought them back to the prime universe nine months late, he should do that but longer….

Tiger2

Pretty good episode! Not as great as I hoped but it looks like they are setting things up for next week. It looks like a lot of people’s predictions were right and Burnham is going to jump into the suit after all. A lot of freakin goodbyes lol but I think this means its not a misdirect, they really are going for it and jumping the ship into a far future.

And if so, WOW, are they REALLY going to do it????? OMG, I’m trying to wrap my head around it. You mean we will finally get our post-Nemesis show??? But post-post-post-post(?) Nemesis? *I* never expected ANY Star Trek show to do this. I assume we would get a 25th century show one day but that would be it for a long time. And technically getting that now with the Picard show. I was happy with that. But if Discovery is going centuries beyond even that….woah.

If they do this, I (almost) take everything I said back about this show being a boring prequel that was relying on too much nostalgia to more TOS stuff but it looks like they are going to go BIG!!! The show should’ve just been post-Nemesis on day one but if they are doing it now, I’m glad they are finally just admitting their error and putting the show in a proper place. And now have the freedom to do whatever they want. But they haven’t gotten there yet, so I’m going to still be a bit cautious.

Oh and LOVED the bridge of the Enterprise! That feels like an updated version of the 23rd century. It felt so big, glossy and futuristic. That was cool!

blackmocco

I get we’ve had two… let’s just leave it at “dodgy”… seasons so far, but isn’t it just a tacky cop-out to reset the time period? Every turn this show has taken has been down to lazy, ham-handed writing. Isn’t relying on a time jump just an admission the writers aren’t good enough to make the current show work as is? And based on that, what faith do we have the same writers are suddenly going to blossom because they reset the narrative? This is – if indeed this is where it’s headed – an awful decision, in my opinion. What was the point of the last two seasons then? What are we even watching? What a waste of time.

Tiger2

Well its not resetting anything in the canon sense. Everything that happened the last two seasons will still have happened. And to be fair to the writers, it really was Fuller idea to set it in this period, but then he left before they even started shooting it and clearly no one has a huge passion for the era itself outside of shoving in more TOS characters (which they have been pretty successful in doing). But outside of that it could be in any century. And I think its just the writers saying they know they created a show and character (Burnham) with too many questions of how she is tied to the rest of canon, so this is a way to get around it I guess.

And they are not abandoning the 23rd century completely. We know the Section 31 show is happening. And yes I suspect there might be a Pike show coming too or at least a mini-series or something. I think in Discovery’s case they created this ridiculously advance ship in a period it doesn’t belong in and now trying to justify stuff like the spore drive. OF course they could just destroy it, but they reeeeaaaly act like they don’t want to do that for some reason.

But you’re right, going into the future doesn’t mean it will just be a better show. I’ve always wanted to go forward in time and thought it being a prequel was a bad idea. And DIS proved that mostly. But its no guarantee going farther will be better, but at least it will be less focus on canon all the time and it will give them the freedom to tell stories I think they feel constrained to here.

At least with the Section 31 show they can practically tell any story thy want and just use the ‘classifid’ route if it breaks canon in a serious way.

blackmocco

Nah, I get the canon thing. I guess I just meant a reset more generally as in “ the show WAS about this, but NOW it’s about this instead! See?”

Let’s remember Fuller never really wanted to keep the show in this time period. He wanted an anthology show and if he’d had his way we’d have had one season in this era and then we’d have moved on. I get it must have been tough for writers to try make it all work once 1. Fuller had “left” and 2. once CBS had decided an anthology show was going to be too expensive to produce, but does that mean there are no interesting stories to tell in this era? I mean, Fuller had nothing to do with season 2 and to my eyes, it’s currently a bigger, sloppier, more infuriating canon-violating mess than season 1. A more capable writing room could have dealt with the situation more effectively by concentrating on making this little patch in Trek history their own, but instead they flew even closer to the proverbial sun by bringing in Spock and Pike and the Enterprise.

My bullet point and concern: taking Discovery into another era might calm the nerves of those bent out of shape with keeping canon straight (and I’m not one of those, for the record. I’ll happily take a good story and good characters over canon anyday), but I don’t see how plonking the show centuries into the future solves the show’s problems, which mostly all emanate from the writers’ room.

Tiger2

As I said, they are NOT leaving the era completely, we know they are making the Section 31 show (although after this season with them, I think people have had enough lol) so they CAN tell more stories, I think they just felt Discovery has created too many canon issues. Not broken canon per se, but people have to stop kidding themselves. You can’t keep saying ‘well visual canon doesn’t matter’ when the show seems to be telling you the COMPLETE opposite. Thats why we had that silly Klingon hair explanation. That’s why Pike had to make the line about not having holograms on the ship. Its also why they explained Discovery has different uniforms and on and on.

If they are EXPLAINING it, then clearly in the back of their heads they know its violating canon in some way. But I think with Discovery it really just comes down to wanting to have Michael be this larger than life character but then NO ONE ever mentions her a few years later. Spock literally act like he doesn’t have a famous sister in Starfleet serving the exact same time he did. And the longer the show goes, the more questions it may bring up in the future.

I thought, in all honesty, they were just going to say Spock doesn’t talk about her because he’s really really mad at her lol. I thought that was literally the direction they were going in as lame as it sounded. But we know that’s not the case now because they are buddy-buddy again and so they they are going even bigger with it by taking her from Spock’s existence…literally I guess.

And for someone who A. Didn’t want DIS as a prequel in the first place and B. certainly didn’t want Spock and Michael siblings, I don’t think they had to go THIS route either lol. End of the day its still just a TV show. These are fictional characters. So I don’t like it, but it doesn’t stop me from enjoying the show either. But I guess they’ve gotten so much slack over it by the fans they finally caved in to their demands. IDK, its still crazy to me too if they go this direction.

But I don’t disagree, flinging it into the future just doesn’t solve all their problems either, but maybe it unlocks them from their biggest ones as well.

blackmocco

A mild tangent: about two years ago, I took it upon myself to watch every single episode of DS9 straight through. The gf wasn’t watching them but she’d pass through the room pretty much every time Nana Visitor would say “cardassian” and grew to hate the word. For my part, it made me aware of just how many times that word is mentioned, like a bad drinking game.

That’s how I now feel about the words “Section 31”, “Control”, and “all sentient life”. Hey, ultimately I’m glad we’re getting new Trek but I’m just left scratching my head at what they’re doing with it.

ML31

Using “Control” as a name was just a BAD idea. I guess it was used in a novel but that is where it should have stayed. Every time that word comes up in the show or in print I just laugh because it conjures up images of Don Adams holding a shoe to his ear. I guess that just shows my age but still….

Fred Javelina

Airiam was replaced by Hymie the robot…

ML31

I just want to say that I am as not as adverse to prequels as you are. I didn’t have a huge problem with the time frame but I did have a GIANT problem with the aesthetic look they went with. The show just LOOKS like it belongs post Nemesis. If they were going to set it before TOS then it should LOOK like it was before TOS. Good production teams would certainly be up to the task of making it look like it belonged in the right time but still making it look good for modern TV audiences. That balance is not impossible to create. Yet Discovery did NONE of that. I try to get past that but I just can’t. It would certainly help if the characters and the writing was better. If it was, I could more easily give it that pass. But very little on this show has really worked. Ironically, a thing that I didn’t want them to do has helped the show. Adding Chris Pike. I just think next season will have a gaping hole again and I have no idea how they are going to fix it.

JonBuck

If the show is going into the 33rd century and they alter the timeline, there a few things that leap out at me. They’ve said that they’re going to align with canon somehow. Just throwing out some ideas here.

So, by that century time travel is easy. We see that with Daniels in Enterprise, and the Temporal Integrity Commission Wells-class ships in Voyager–those ships had temporal transporters in the 29th century. Might they possibly meet one of those ships as they travel through the vortex? Lots of possibilities. But I’m sure I’m completely wrong.

Marty

The two ships just don’t look like they come from the same era. It’s bizarre.

Jordan

It’s because they had no idea what they were doing. Hence all these “corrections”.

Thorny

Well really, neither do the Enterprise and Grissom in Star Trek III or the Defiant and any other starship in DS9.

For that matter, a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier doesn’t look anything like an Ohio-class submarine. Yet they operate in the same fleet at the same time.

Marty

Those two ships share a common design language. The Enterprise and Discovery just don’t. In fact, Discovery looks unlike anything in Star Trek full stop.

Eric Cheung

The Defiant shares a design language with ANY other Starfleet vessel? Especially in First Contact, there were tons of ships that looked completely different, from nacelles, to orientation, to saucer type. About all they had in common was the color. And even that has been demonstrably different, fleetwide, since Star Trek III.

kmart

The FC ships are the way they are because paramount insisted nothing look remotely like the E-E, and then picked I think 4 out of 12 or 16 ships Alex Jaeger drew up. (I don’t think Jaeger was imagining that those bg ships were going to see additional action on DS9 or maybe even inspire nx-01.)

I think the DEFIANT does feel more like Starfleet than a lot of those, but I can’t point to a detail to say why I feel that way. I think it possesses a certain oddness — especially from some angles — that calls back the MJ original Ent in terms of ‘that looks weird’ in an inventive positive way — which is true of a lot of Jim Martin work (he did very good work on ALIEN REZ and came up with an unused Gorn ship design that I would revive for any space project I got to be in charge of.) There’s too much ‘stick two pontoons on a geometry and call it a ship’ that passes for design in Trek this century (though at the time I thought DEFIANT’s cowled nacelles should have popped out when going to warp, sort of like what they did in the LOST IN SPACE movie a couple years later.)

Spiked Canon

because it was created for the spore drive. Also, in the series opening we saw Sect 31 on the ship, so it was more than likely created with sect 31 technology

Thorny

Two nacelles, saucer shaped main hull. That’s about the extent of the similarity, and the Enterprise/Discovery share them as well.

We’ve seen lots of variations throughout Star Trek. The Stargazer had four nacelles long before any ship in Discovery. Reliant had no secondary hull long before we saw the Defiant or Nebula-class.

And again, look at present-day US warships. Many look completely different, depending on function. Crossfield-class was built for a different mission than the Constitution-class.

I think the claim that Enterprise and Discovery look too different is a very weak argument in the light of Star Trek history.

Mark Z

They’re not really. Discovery is brand new, Enterprise has been around for at least a decade, right? And it wasn’t the first Constitution class vessel.

Hat Rick

Great point. The Starship Enterprise is imposing regardless of its appearance, and this has credibility. If you look at the F-15X (an American fighter aircraft), which in its new-build form, looks as if it was designed in the late 1960’s. The new-build F-15X (and even existing F-15’s) can outclass by far most other fighter aircraft and has never lost in a combat engagement. And the original F-15 was and is, as it became, in the 1970’s, 1980’s, 1990’s, and 2000’s, a premiere (fourth-generation) aircraft in design, capacity, and actual victories. (Frankly, the F-15 design looks a lot like the F-14 Tomcats of “Top Gun” fame and was designed not too far distant in time from it, despite the fact that the Eagle was a McDonnell Douglas design and the Tomcat was a Grumman product.) It therefore looks outwardly much less “advanced” than the F-22 or F-35, even though the F-15X can probably run circles around the F-35 (tho’ not the F-22).

Appearances aren’t too much to rely upon when it comes to technology, altho’ it does have its merits as pointers.

The new Gerald R. Ford-class supercarriers (one of which will be named the USS Enterprise) of the U.S. Navy are essentially unchanged from the appearance of World War II aircraft carriers except in sheer size, but are potentially thousands of times more powerful when equipped with nuclear weapons, as is said to be an open secret.

And the DDG-1000 Zumwalt-class destroyers of the U.S. Navy are far more advanced than the U.S. Civil War designs whose appearance it shares in its “tumblehome” appearance.

Sometimes, the older, the better.

Here’s an article about the F-15X:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a26413900/air-force-buying-new-f-15/

Fred Javelina

While we’re on the aircraft comparison, remember the experimental XB70 Valkyrie high-altitude bomber, whose fuselage bears more than a little resemblance to Discovery’s engineering section.

Markinva

Fred, not to mention the Valkyrie looks as advanced as anything flying today. Some of the planes from the 60’s , sr71, a12 still look futuristic.

Hat Rick

The XB-70 Valkyrie was quite futuristic-looking, and with its six engines, it seemed to bespeak power, speed, and capability. The fact that one was destroyed in a tragic accident during testing meant the end of the program. It also did not help the program that ICBM’s were become a more promising approach toward nuclear war and deterrence. It’s interesting that the B-52, built many years before the XB-70, carried just a slightly smaller payload than was intended for the XB-70, and the B-1B, built many years after the XB-70, carried, carried slightly more. Yet only the XB-70 was designed to achieve Mach 3 flight: Both the B-52 and the B-1B were subsonic (although the original version of the B-1B, the B-1A, was capable of Mach 2).

The upcoming new U.S. strategic bomber design, the B-21 Raider, will be smaller than the B-1B but will be Stealthy (unlike any of the above-mentioned bombers). It is designed to complement the venerable B-52, B-1B, and B-2.

On the increasing need for Stealth, see also: http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/a2dd91_cd5494417b644d1fa7d7aacb9295324d.pdf

Sadly for fans of past planes it’s a whole different world with 5th Gen fighters. Not just stealth, but distributed target acquisition 360 DEG and ability to shoot missiles in any direction without pointing the nose that way and getting the acquisition and targeting from another plane or drone or satellite or ground control or future unmanned combat fighter without ever having to turn on radar. The Navy version able to take off and land on many ships besides carriers and short airstrips or roads on land.
America just sent a signal to China on that by sailing a light helo assault ship with 6 F-35s on deck between China and Taiwan.

The F-15X prolongs the program’s life and is dandy for 3rd world threats that honestly the US has overfocused on the last 25 years. The threat is China, with Russian advances demanding attention as well. But we are seeing the F-35 just wiping out Red Force groups of F-15s, Rafales, F-16s, planes set up to simulate J-10s or SU35s. It rules!

Hat Rick

Interesting thoughts. A continuing problem with strike aircraft in the U.S. inventory is the limited capability of both the F-18E/F Superhornet and the naval version of the F-35. The Superhornet is shorter-ranged than the much older F-14 Tomcat it has replaced, requiring the U.S. Navy to either deploy retankers, utilize a buddy-system for refueling, or strike from its aircraft carriers from a shorter range (putting its capital ships at risk). The F-35 suffers from a lower payload capacity, altho’ it could alleviate this at the cost of its Stealth. Some inter-service cooperation would be needed in the future (e.g., deployment of the USAF’s (to-be-produced) B-21 Raider on missions of radar suppression or deployment of “Wild Weasel) aircraft or bases from forward bases in Europe or from Diego Garcia, for example.

The shortcomings of the F-18 and the F-35 relative to their predecessor(s) is yet another example of the premise that newer is not necessily better.

However, the network-centric capability of the F-35, to say nothing of the F-22, does far outclass that of older aircraft, and combined with the use of the Valyrie drone XQ-58 drone (no relation to the XB-70) in combat engagements, automated air-to-surface and sea-based assets, and integration with land- and space-based intelligence assets, the U.S. may still hold the upper hand against peer adversaries for a time.

We saw a (very exaggerated) version of the use of massive drone (and indeed swarm) technology in the movie, “Star Trek Beyond,” by the way. Hopefully the use of a popular song (“Sabotage,” Beastie Boys) wont have the same effect on RW assets.

Tiger2

LOL no they don’t. Discovery really sticks out. But I guess it’s the Enterprise that technically sticks out since the other ships in this universe does feel closer to Discovery aesthetics and not Enterprise.

I remember when people were predicting everything about the ship that it was A. a ship from an advanced future B. a hybrid Starfleet/Klingon ship (I won’t lie, I did consider this one for awhile lol) or C. an experimental Section 31 ship. It could’ve been any of those and I don’t think anyone would’ve been surprised.

Legate Damar

I’m a little skeptical of the idea of the ship travelling into the future. That would mean that none of the recurring cast we’ve come to know and love would be likely to return. I suppose that they could show up on the Section 31 show (which Tyler and Georgiou certainly will), or on a Captain Pike show, but they would be missed on Discovery.

Mark Z

Enjoyed it overall, looked great, had a big smile on my face when first shown the Enterprise interior, especially the beautiful bridge. I love it when shows aren’t afraid to make big changes from one season to the next, so I’m very curious if they’re really following through on this. Too many emotional goodbyes for me, didn’t dislike any of them specifically, but in aggregate just a bit much. They’ve really set the table for the finale to be nonstop craziness, should be fun.

PEWDIEPICARD

I think i forwarded through most of this episode and I’m pretty sure I didn’t miss anything important because I think there was nothing important. The best part was Enterprise. I’m a purest and that was very respectfully done.

And now the bad… Good Lord how many tiny ships are Disco and Enterprise carrying? It was like a fleets worth! After having a convo about the cage around the time crystal causing everyone on the ship to go bonkers they take down the cage anyways? Huh? Oh and Burn-ham blah blah whatever. I don’t think they going to stay in the future. We’ll see though. If they do though, hopefully they can erase the pre-back to the future Disco stuff from the timeline. They picked up Admiral Cornflakes (who just randomly leaves and shows up) and then the Spocks show up and no one brings back up? Like not even a phaser? Just make a bloody phone call. If the Disco is now alive why can’t they go tell it to hide or something? And one more thing. I still don’t know who all those people are that are staying on Disco. Other than Saru and Tilly. I guess go team? Can’t she just go to Boreth in the future and get another time crystal? I mean they have a ship, a suit, her mom is there. Plus it is the future and if Starfleet is still in tact then they have the ability to time travel already…Right? RIGHT? LIKE COME ON MAN FOR FUCGHLJLDKSJFEIOJUHALKFJDLSFJD SLFDSLJFK DLSFJDLSKFJ LDSF SDLFKJ…

I don’t know man…

A pike show would be nice but if it’s this same group of people behind the scenes forget it. I don’t want bastard trek.

ML31

“A pike show would be nice but if it’s this same group of people behind the scenes forget it.”

I can totally get behind this comment. I really want to see an Anson Mount led Pike show. But if it’s the same “creative” people running it (or people like them) that have been running STD then I think I’d rather not see it.

Spiked Canon

your comments have more holes than the episode did

PEWDIEPICARD

Great! Now I can apply to be a writer on Discovery! Sikkkkkkk

helenofpeel

Well, this episode, minus the drippy parts of which there were a LOT!, is very positive. But the drippy parts took far too much of the show time which was not necessary to help the audience understand the costs to the crew and leaders. Totally unnecessary. Overall a 5 out of 10.

ML31

Those parts did slow the show down. Had we gotten to know those people it would have resonated a bit. But mainly it boils down to Burnham. I honestly don’t care about Burnham and that bleeds into other things because she is the lead. Pike’s exit was the most moving moment in the episode. That says a lot about the show right there.

Travitt

They were talking a lot about altering ‘the cage,’ in that spinny engineering scene. I wonder if they’re foreshadowing some changing the Canon around “The Cage,” in some way. Maybe to change Pike’s fate?

blackmocco

Well, that was pretty appalling from start to finish. The entire writers room needs to be jettisoned. Nobody knows what they’re doing and they don’t have what it takes. Sorry. Not taking any pleasure in writing that but can’t butter it up. So much potential for this show being wasted.

Enterprise stuff was cool though.

VoR

I couldn’t agree more. The look of the Enterprise was great…. But that writing. What are they doing?

Markinva

I was ok with most of it. With the exception of the “we can’t get away, they will just follow”. Then the very next scene we see Discovey make a jump and the Enterprise has to catch up.

That is just plain lazy writing. I hope they are maybe seeing their shortcoming and will do better in the future. You gotta hope at least.

Gnow

If Discovery jump into the future with an empty ship does that mean the crew ended up at isekai?

Tiger2

I noticed all the Borg talk has stopped lol. Two episodes ago I couldn’t get on Youtube without being recommended a video someone made about it. Now, not one single post here has even mentioned them. Funny how that works.

Just Another Salt Vampire

Control evolved from Borgish to T-1000ish. Now it seems to be HAL9000ish and controlling an entire fleet of starships.

DaveCGN

Funny, since HAL9000’s ship is called Discovery… the CONTROLs (lol) on the right side of image #14 looks like off 2001 Space odyssey… just put a right light on that spot… and you’ve got Hal 9000…

Sebi

I really enjoy watching Discovery every week and it has it’s moments. I am not bothered by visual canon. But I also watched the DS9 episodes “To The Death” and “Call To Arms” yesterday (just randomly picked episodes). In those episodes, every dialog scene is absolutely amazing, especially when Garak or Weyoun are in involved. Especially on DS9, the writing was top notch, Discovery is parsecs away from that. Every other aspect of Discovery (casting, sets, make-up, FX) is amazing, but the writing somehow falls flat.

Person Who Agreed

agreed. DS9 had some great writing going on, especially with those two characters.

Andrew SD

This session has been such a treat from start to finish. I can’t wait for next Thursday. And I’m so impressed by the Enterprise. Kinda blown away. Bold and beautiful and very familiar. This has been a good year to be a Star Trek fan.

ThePhaige

So Saru is still a Commander, Will Pike make #1 the new Discovery Captain to take the ship forward?

Just Another Salt Vampire

Probably not, because she is still on the Enterprise, not on the Discovery as it launches into the future. From the behavior of the characters it seemed like either Saru or Burnham are going to be captain.

Thorny

It wouldn’t be Pike’s decision to make. Starfleet Command would do that (presumably already has, with that other Captain still waiting on Vulcan.) Pike can leave someone in command in his absence, but that would be Saru’s responsibility as First Officer anyway, and there is no need for Pike to make such an announcement.

Gene Roddenberry and Gene L. Coon had military experience and got the details mostly right. Kurtzman & Co. obviously don’t and have made some blunders in the Abrams movies and Discovery.

And none of the Bridge Crew in “Such Sweet Sorrow” was actually standing at attention for Pike. They were at what is called Parade Rest. “Attention” is standing feet together, arms at sides.

ML31

I almost expected a salute but then I remembered… I don’t recall ever seeing a salute in Star Trek. Just standing at attention. Is a salute too militaristic?

Markinva

ML, I don’t think they ever showed a salute in Star Trek. I don’t recall it ever being dictated that it wasn’t allowed. But I don’t think it will ever happen. Maybe with the exception of going back in time and meeting Patton or something ;-)

ThePhaige

There was a little discussion there with Saru and Pike where Saru said something along the lines of we can discuss the captain later… and then he said ok Commander. Obviously its not Pikes ultimate decision unless it was delegated or relegated to him to chose someone. Shes a big name to be only in 15 mins of this season I feel , but time will tell I reckon.

Joe

Yeah, for a while there I actually thought Saru was going to nominate Burnham to the captain’s chair

TG47

The whole scene made me uncomfortable. And it was done more awkwardly than it needed to be.

The writers knew that Pike had to formally hand over command to someone.

With it being effectively Michael’s mission, she was the natural acting captain for the duration – she’s got to be mission commander.

…except she’s the one who won’t be on the ship for transit.

So, Saru is the natural first officer to follow her lead.

Done.

Permanent captaincy to be determined if they ever get back.

Hat Rick

I love this series. I know it has its faults, and some of them are plotline-related, but there is a great deal of love and care that goes into this production. I can just feel it.

I know that we as the audience sometimes love to nitpick about literally incredible plot contrivances, but at this point, I don’t care. I think we should be happy that Trek has moved forward in this way, and — believe it or not — this is fiction. This is not reality. In reality, no one would try to capture the Red Angel. That’s because the Red Angel doesn’t exist. Neither do the characters, ships, or most of the technology depicted in any Star Trek production exist. (I’ve said my small piece about how I don’t get the Red Angel capture thing; I also think that sending Discovery into the far future (with a number of people who wouldn’t have the support system of– anything, actually — in that future) simply doesn’t make logical sense). It does stretch the boundaries of belief. But I do not care about that; this is space opera done with care, love, and attention to detail. It’s time to drop the pretenses, allow oneself to embrace this incredible story, and realize that ….

It’s fiction. We can argue about whether fiction makes sense. It’s like arguing whether “2001: A Space Odyssey” technically makes sense. Or whether its follow-on completely makes sense. Or whether “Avatar” completely makes sense. I guess they don’t. That’s because … they’re fiction. It’s fiction, not fact. Technically, for example, the character of “Leland” isn’t at all extant in any form, in our physical reality, except in the form of his portrayer, who is a paid actor who did his work on a sound-stage (or nearby location) somewhere. People who are killed by phaser blasts aren’t killed and aren’t dead. They’re actors playing a role. If you want to talk about reality, that’s reality.

I sometimes need a reminder that this is indeed fiction, not because of the faults of this series, but because it is so akin to, or at least speaks to, that part of me that desires an almost “docu-drama” of the future. But this is too much to expect of any group of people, for we truly don’t know the future.

I understand why some others are annoyed by things about this series, considering that the writing is good but maybe not as good as some of the very best of Star Trek. That, to me, right now, is okay. Not everything has to be golden. Not every word or plot has to be Emmy-worthy. The truth of the matter is that the real appeal of Star Trek is its heart, which to me is always golden.

It pains me sometimes to read criticism of modern Star Trek (including re-reading criticisms I’ve made myself, which, in my own defense, are comparatively minor through the years). I am very appreciative of this series, and I wish it well.

And I cannot wait for the finale.

blackmocco

This isn’t much of a point, Rick. Obviously it’s fiction. But it’s not too much to ask that it be well-crafted and thoughtful fiction.

Alan Light

Well, said, Hat Rick. People who say it’s not well crafted, well thought out, or well written are just wrong.

TG47

Alan Light it sounds like we share a long personal history with Trek.

Like you, I’ve been trying to accept and appreciate each series for what it is.

But Discovery has profound issues.

It’s had major changes in writers and leadership.

Saying that it’s incoherent – – with itself – – isn’t just nastiness.

It’s a plea to TPTB to stop trying to find the big shiny thing that will save this series, and to settle down and build the ensemble of characters in a coherent way that can sustain the show over another 5 years.

ML31

It sounds like your point is that as long as the creator of art really tries hard and cares about his final product then you will like the art. Regardless of what that final product turns out to be. Your prerogative. For many of us, we want the art that we take in to be, good. At least to our tastes. We can appreciate that a lot of care went into the creation but if the final product is distasteful then we just aren’t going to appreciate it. Sorry.

Hat Rick

I think that would be something of an exaggeration of my point.

My overall point is that when one really likes something, one is happy to overlook imperfections if the overall intent and the final product is appealing. If one is over-critical, one simply drains the enterprise of all its energy and fun. And what would that accomplish?

ML31

OK. That’s fair. I just didn’t see that in the original comments anywhere.

Michael Hall

I think I understand the argument that “it’s only fiction,” at least to a degree. I’m going to re-post this on the podcast devoted to this episode (which I have yet to see), because I think it bears repeating about Discovery and the Trek franchise in general:

“I just saw what was very possibly the worst Star Trek episode ever made, a piece of garbage entitled “The Doomsday Machine,” written by some hack named Norman Spinrad. It’s about this giant robot, a leftover weapon from a forgotten alien war, that’s been wandering the galaxy eating planets; it has also just wrecked a sister ship of the Enterprise, whose captain is the lone survivor. There’s some interesting visual FX work, great music, and even some respectable acting (if you can get past William Windom”s weepy guilty survivor theatrics), especially when the other captain goes all Ahab and takes over the Enterprise is a bid to destroy the weapon. But the story is full of holes big enough to fly the doomsday machine itself through. Kirk’s ultimate solution to defeat the device is to fly the crippled sister ship into the thing’s maw (it looks like a giant windsock dipped in cement) and detonate its engines. Well, if the machine was that easy to outsmart and defeat, how was it ever a factor in an interstellar war? Even worse, Scotty sets an “auto-destruct” timer for the ship’s engines which lasts precisely thirty seconds, which means that Kirk has to stay behind until they get within range of the thing and flip the destruct switch himself, leading to a lot of fake suspense involving a faulty transporter in the final act, where we’re expected to believe that a TV series might be on the verge of killing-off its leading man. Why not just set the timer for three minutes, or thirty minutes, or detonate the engines remotely from the Enterprise itself? It’s just lazy, sloppy writing, and unacceptable for Trek. Grade: C-”

Now, facetiousness aside, the story issues with “Doomsday” are real, and are central to its plot. Does that make it a bad show? Does the fact that Spock’s plans for mutiny in “The Menagerie” aren’t all that airtight mean it’s a bad show, or the fact that there’s no explanation for why the landing party in “The City on the Edge of Forever” doesn’t disappear with the Enterprise (which Ellison’s original script did actually cover) make it a bad show? No. In fact, they’re great shows, albeit flawed ones. We’re willing to overlook those flaws partly because we make allowances for the era in which the episodes were produced, but also because their other qualities – acting, direction, music, great dialogue – more than make up for those deficiencies. I’m not excusing poor plotting on the part of the Discovery writers, which I’ve often been critical of myself — and it’s even more important to get such things right in serialized drama, where plotting issues can magnify themselves over the course of a season. But when the show’s harshest critics present a laundry list of plot holes and inconsistencies as evidence that it isn’t worth your time as drama, Star Trek, or even just entertainment, I think they’re missing something pretty fundamental. Keeping plot holes and mistakes to a bare minimum is indeed very important, but if you think that’s all there is to good Trek, you’re fifty years late to the party.

BLACKMOCCO

Fair points, although I’d argue that decent character writing gets you through the most preposterous of plots in TOS unscathed. Basically: yes, this is completely ridiculous but I really like and care about the characters so I’m going with it. Not so much suspension of disbelief, but strength of the characters to carry you to the finish line. You’re right: City on the Edge of Forever doesn’t make a lick of sense. Doesn’t matter. All I’m thinking about watching it is Kirk’s dilemma. That’s as much a success in the writing – perhaps more so – as being able to tie up all your plot holes. To me, Discovery has barely touched the hem for solid and consistent character writing so far, so the plot holes are, unfortunately, just left gaping to some viewers.

Another point: just as defending the visual updates from 1966 to 2019 seems like a fair argument to me, the same values have to be applied to the storytelling. Yes, practically every episode of Trek, particularly TOS, has some ludicrous element that we can forgive as a sample of its time, but Discovery has been floating itself as a modern update, referencing top-of-the-line shows like GoT (itself a story with plenty of fantastical and unexplainable elements), so yeah, the standards of TV storytelling in this medium have been seriously elevated and Discovery has been lacking in that department. I really do think the show is capable of being shaped into a heavyweight in that ring, but we’re two seasons in and I have strong doubts the people currently in charge are up to the task.

Michael Hall

I happen to agree with your take on contrasting the longform storytelling chops between Game of Thrones, prestige TV shows in general, and Discovery, in which the latter has been seriously lacking. In fact, that’s been my greatest disappointment with the series thus far: I was really hoping to see a modern Trek for the era of prestige TV, and so far in that respect it’s fallen far short, even as it does manage to entertain and draw new subscribers to All-Access.

That said, where we do part company is on the character work, which for my money has been just fine, and occasionally better than that. And as I’ve said previously, I’ll take the show, warts and all, over the stultifying blandness of the latter Berman era any day. Discovery is many things, but bland it ain’t.

BLACKMOCCO

Oh, no argument on the Berman stuff. Voyager and Enterprise felt like they were inhabited by mannequins. The Orville seems to be ticking that box quite nicely, and if that’s what people need to get their kicks, fair dues to them. I’m not going to judge, I just have no interest in Trek returning to that. You’re right, Discovery ain’t bland, but just needs to calm down a little.

And look, I don’t want to harp on the character stuff too much with Discovery again, as I fell it’s been talked to death on here already and I don’t want to repeat myself. I’ll reiterate that I take no pleasure in voicing any of the negativity. It just feels like a decent place to vent, and I am glad to see people are currently getting more out of the show than I am. Ultimately, I just want the show to succeed, and I think it can be honed and rejigged to do that. Hoping season 3 delivers.

Michael Hall

Oh, me too. I still don’t think the show has found its groove yet, though I do find a fair amount of stuff to like. Here’s hoping to a better Season 3.

ML31

For me at least, if I am engrossed in the story to the point where I do not think of the plot holes at the time of first viewing, then the filmmakers have won. They made a good product. If I am not engrossed in the story then I start thinking about all the problems upon first viewing. That means the filmmakers lost. To be honest, most stories don’t hold up to severe scrutiny after the fact. A couple of episodes this season, I did not think about the problems as the story kept my attention. But for most, I was free to wonder about why they did things and why not others. Hence my overall dissatisfaction with the story. That said, season 2 is still much better than season 1.

Richie

If you’ve being paying attention they have already addressed canon discrepancies since the start of the season. In the original timeline Spock only knew Michael for a day because she died in the storm, so why would he mention her? He certainly wouldn’t regard her as a sibling. Once she was saved this became a new universe, everything Michael has done since then has further diverged the timeline, not to mention the actions of The Red Angel. The even addressed the tech a few episodes back saying they suspect the sudden spike in tech advanced is due to time travel interference with the timeline.

Anybody other than me notice that the episode disappeared from All Access for several hours? I got home from work around 1am, made a sandwich, and pulled AA up on my Fire Stick. Told it to play the episode, at which point the app gave me an error message saying there were technical difficulties. So I tried to pull the episode up on the All Access website — and it wasn’t there at all. The episode from last week was in the pole position, like I’d used a time crystal to go back in time a week.

So I watched an episode of “True Detective” instead, and once that was over I tried again. Still nothing; episode totally gone. So I watched the final episode of “The Ted Bundy Tapes,” and when THAT horrifying piece of awesomeness was over, the new episode of Discovery was finally available on All Access and played. And it even played without glitches, for the most part! Well, until the last ten minutes, at which point it began glitching frequently.

Anyways, I don’t know what was up with any of that, but this episode was alright. Of the three episodes of tv I watched, it was the worst by light years; but it had its moments, and was beautifully acted. Not sure what the deal was with the “gonna name a new captain now EXCEPT NO WE’RE NOT HAHAHAHAHA” malarkey. What a dumb series this is sometimes.

DaveCGN

Your app has obviously been overrunned by CONTROL!!!!! :-)

M__Z

So now we know how it works. Michael beams Spock back to the 1701 right before they leave and he is so pissed about that, that he never ever even mentions her again.

Trek in a Cafe

I hope we get to see Michael arrive as the Red Angel and meet Spock (when he seems to be on an ice planet) and mind meld with him – as seen in the flashbacks. I wonder how many unexplained questions can be explained in a single episode? I hope the pace isn’t too frenetic. I am assuming a list of questions we want answered before the end of the season would be… exhaustive?

bmar

*sigh* The thing that makes me crazy about this talkback is that it’s so polarized all the time. You can usually divide the posts into one of two categories. “I love it!” or “This is the worst thing ever.” Yes, occasionally we get a rational moderate voice in the middle. Gang, this is Star Trek. A 50+ year history of highs and lows, good writing and bad, amazing plots and plots full of holes, good characters and bad characters.

If we can’t enjoy the fact that after a long fallow period, Star Trek is enjoying a renaissance (in every sense of the word – not every piece of renaissance artwork is fantastic, by any means) then there’s something really wrong with us.

Discovery is far from perfect, but I enjoy it. Love it? No. Hate it? No. It has its highs and lows. Personally, I could do without Tilly and by extension, the seeming addition of Po. They’re the present day equivalent of the Beatle wig on Chekov – an attempt to make ST hip to the kids. But that’s my opinion, and others might love her and I’m quite cool with that.

Anyway, a plea for all of us to lighten up. Like it fairly, dislike it fairly. Level critique without venom.

Trek in a Cafe

I agree on your points – always. I also think that we have to acknowledge that the producers and writers are trying new things. We already have tons of Star Trek we love, so giving the producers and writers some wiggle room to mess up should be par for the course. Things get out of hand when we regard this as “prewritten history.”

Holden

I agree with the spirit of your post. Being reasonable and respectful is an important part of any discussion. But I disagree that Trekmovie.com promotes the level of antagonism you’re suggesting. As polarization on the internet goes, this is by far one of the friendlier sites, which is why I’ve come here to talk Trek for many years now.

Danpaine

Agreed. This place has been my safe haven from the rest of the internet for years, for the very reason you indicated, Holden. It’s a nasty jungle out there.

Alan Light

Very Well, said. I like Po and Tilly, btw.

PEB

Thank you bmar! Well-said. I’m one of those fans who had no serious love for Voyager but I still watch that series frequently on Netflix and All Access because there are episodes that were fun. Is every episode of Discovery amazing? No but I love that show so much. There were seasons of TNG, DS9, TOS, VOY, and ENT that would be gutted if social media was around when they were on the air and I think we need to remember the franchise for that and not act as though Discovery is some red-headed step child.

VZX

My “Speculutron” is maxxing out. How could they spend the money on that new, beautiful bridge and NOT do a new show? I understand there is no new announcement, but Peck, Mount, and Romajin seem to be available. And now that Discovery is in the future (and seems to be spending Season 3 in the future), it would free up the writers for the new Pike/Enterprise show.

But wow, that bridge. Really. I just want to watch a show with that bridge! And, of course, Captain Pike and the rest.

It would really, really, really suck if we don’t get some more Enterprise action. At least for me. AND it would be an opportunity to do a show that is not so dark and gritty as Discovery. Maybe something more exploratory, fun, etc.

UFP Public Affairs

CBS stockholders should revolt if they DON’T do a new show after what they seem to have spent on those new Enterprise sets.

Jeff F

I seem to have similar feelings as others about this. Loved the Enterprise and the music along with it. Thought most of the episode was too mawkish.
Glad that they found room to have another female leader (Po) providing all the solutions (sarcasm).
Have guarded hopes for the season finale; it looks to be promising.

” Glad that they found room to have another female leader (Po) providing all the solutions (sarcasm).”

Now imagine you’re a woman, and for your whole life you’ve been seeing basically only men provide the solutions in movies and television. See how that isn’t a great feeling?

You can probably work the rest of it out for yourself.

Jeff F

I imagine they didn’t like it, but to go completely the other way isn’t the solution. And your response sounds like what I suspect is the case, that they are trying to right all the wrongs in this one series. When it’s that forced, it becomes a borderline parody, “Star Trek for Girls.” The agenda begins to overshadow the story and characters and it becomes a turnoff.
For example, I like Jett Reno and Tig Notaro’s portrayal of her. But her existence is tainted by so many females prior to her that it takes away a little of the enjoyment for me.

The fact that you see this as going completely the other way says a lot about you, none of it good.

Martin

I liked the episode… but it had some plot holes and flaws that were way too large
1). Cornwell states that Discovery could jump but the section 31 ships would get them. Oh? Discovery jumps to Teralisium. How many years would Discovery have before the S31 ships got there?
Or Discovery jumps to the center of a Starfleet Armada which protects it.
2). After establishing that Discovery could autopilot after Michael…. there is no reason for 7 people to stay aboard. If the ship needs to be manned, it needs 50-100 people. If it doesn’t need to be manned then there is no reason for the crew.
3). I remain amazed at the speed at which Sarek’s ship and Cornwell’s shuttle can get around.

MysticalDigtial

1)
Discovery is out of range, Control turns around and just starts glassing planets with it’s armada of section 31 ships.

2)
They are staying on for the adventure and because their friend will be trapped in the unknown alone. They are Starfleet after all.

3)
Sarek likely was on his way there before they even jumped to Xahia, the whole Vulcan mystic katra connection thing.

DaveCGN

hat the hell happened with the spore drive? First they are running out of time because Leland comes closer and they see no other way than to destroy the ship instead of using the spore drive and simply jump away. Then the need to get as soon as possible to that planet and they are able to use the spore drive.
Why not simply use the spore drive to just as far away as possible?! They already jumped 50000 lightyears away. Why not repeat it?

TonyD

Because the spore drive would effectively resolve the conflict in about 30 seconds. Just jump some place that would take Control centuries to get to or a parallel universe or even back to a starbase or other area where there are fleet ships to assist and you’ve basically solved the story.

It’s another example of the writers just not thinking things thru and not bothering to follow the show’s own internal logic. A lot of these later episodes feel more like first drafts than fully thought out shows. Don’t know if it’s because of a time crunch or lack of talent but either way, the end of Season 1 felt rushed, lazy and ultimately unsatisfying and Season 2 is shaping up the same way.

Tiger2

It makes no sense. You can’t really buy Control will just ‘follow them’ when you can jump literally 60 thousand light years some place else and buy you LOTS of time. I still don’t understand why not just say the spore drive is damaged or something? At least that would make sense. This is just silly not to even use even if the jumps were more limited. Especially when Section 31 only has 30 ships.

Longtime Trekfan

Having watched this season almost completely now, I am enjoying it, quite a bit better than season 1. I grew up in the 1970’s watching daily reruns of the original series on TV, and I’ve loyally followed the movies and all the various TV shows over the years as an adult. However, its clear to me that a spinoff series featuring the Enterprise with Pike, Spock, Number One (played by Mount, Peck and Romijn, would be wildly successful. I think that its fair to say that Trek fans have been, for the most part, “okay” with all the various movies and TV shows over the years since the original series ended. But all that time, they have really wanted another show set in the same era with the original Enterprise and its crew – in original style uniforms. These last few episodes of Discovery have given us that, along with simply excellent portrayals of Captain Pike and Mr. Spock by Anson Mount and Ethan Peck. It would be foolish for the studio not to seriously look into developing a show featuring these fine actors and the new “TOS” Enterprise. This season has been an absolute treat for me and a major part of that has been due to Pike, Spock and the Enterprise. Its been way beyond my expectations and the only down side for me is the possibility that I won’t see new adventures with Pike, Spock and the Enterprise.

Alan Light

Great post and all true…

Marty

Slowing down the external shots of the star ships is a master stroke. Just how it should be, these ships aren’t X-Wings!

Reign1701A

This episode had a lot of wonderful elements:
-Lots of great character moments and dialogue. I for one liked all the emotional goodbyes
-The Enterprise interior set design was outstanding
-Some classic Trek briefing room/problem solving
-Lots of humor, I especially love the chemistry between Tilly and Po. I really like how “Runaway” paid off in this episode.

But yeah there are a couple of GLARING plot holes that I’m struggling to look past:
-Saying “we can’t run because Control will find us” makes no sense. USE. THE. SPORE. DRIVE TO GO ANYWHERE YOU WANT. Terralysium was on the far edge of the Beta Quadrant…maybe just go there? Spore jump to where there’s at least a couple of other Starfleet ships, maybe a Starbase? All they needed was one throwaway line for why the Spore Drive wasn’t an option, e.g. “the sphere data is locking us out of the spore drive!” (Under this scenario, just warp to Xahea).

-I assumed Sarek and Amanda showing up were katric-visions but nope, they showed up in the warp cruiser. Dude, Sarek, leave the system and call for help? How did the cruiser get there so fast? Having them show up really undercuts the drama of the Enterprise and Disco being isolated from the rest of Starfleet.

-How about somebody else volunteers to hop into a shuttle to the nearest starbase to call for help?

I get it, they want to set up the dramatic showdown with the Discovery and Enterprise teaming up (and I’d bet good money on Tyler tagging in the Klingon fleet at the last minute) against the Leland fleet. Fine, cool, but the writers have to do a better job of dotting their i’s and crossing their t’s. This plot hole really took me out of what could have been a truly great episode.

Lukas

Yeah from an in universe standpoint the whole retro fitting of Shuttles and worker bees being done in such a short space of time was ridiculous. Also this business of time crystals etc just feels like bad fan fiction.

PEB

Bad fan fiction? There’s literally a Bajoran Orb of Time and no one had a problem with it. If you can look at the Orbs and go with it, there’s no reason you can’t with time crystals.

ML31

The orb of time is not some naturally occurring element. It comes from the wormhole aliens and the orbs hold a significance to the Bajoran people. Apples and oranges, my friend.

MysticalDigtial

Maybe the time crystals were seeded by the same aliens… I miss when this fandom came up with theories to explain all the plot holes, not just picking the shows apart.

ML31

Maybe. Maybe Thanos left them behind after he was done with his infinity gauntlet.

Lukas

^ Gold hahaha

khambattafan

Thing is, DS9 was inching into metaphysics for valid reasons, thematically. And the “time crystals” are quite dissonant in regards to TOS-era Klingons. Again, it’s a question of taste and judgement- you shouldn’t turn TOS-era Klingons into the Prophets. The fact that this must be explained is galling.

Lukas

The Orbs made sense to a degree, I saw them as technology that a highly advanced alien race (The Prophets) created, that’s why the fans could go along with it.

Whereas the Klingons having a bunch of ‘time crystals’ is ridiculous, as the Klingons are nowhere further along than Humans or Romulans. Granted they didn’t create them but the whole concept is just ridiculous IMO.

ML31

Lukas, I completely agree.

Denny C

Fun ep but a few things were a bit off like Sarek and Amanda dropping by. “Michael, we just happened to be in the neighborhood and wanted to say it’s been real. Ya’ know? Oh, and tell Spock we said hi. Oh, and let us know if there’s anything, I mean anything we can do at all to help with that Control fleet that’s on the way before we slip out the back door. You should be fine with the Enterprise on the way but, still, it couldn’t hurt to have a little backup.”

Discovery could jump into the future to hide, sure, but just how long is that a viable solution? I suspect that we’ll find out that Discovery won’t be jumping into the future but somewhere else entirely.

alastair87

They’ve done a routine where Sarek reaches out to Michael (in the first episode I think) through a katric connection before. They could have done that, and easily built in a way for him to include Amanda, and avoided this problem.

ML31

In fact, that is what I thought was going on from the start. Until I saw their shuttle leave and I literally mouthed, “WTF???”

J.S.

One neat detail – in the beginning when Pike says “Number One, take us to a safe distance”, you can see that her display reads “WARP FACTOR 6.25” which then moves down and changes to morphs to “244c” (which is warp factor cubed)

VZX

Wow that’s awesome!

Picard’s Patty

That upgraded retro-Enterprise bridge was magnificent! We need a Pike/Spock series on the Enterprise!

Picard’s Patty

I wonder if Picard and Discovery are about to cross paths.

DaveCGN

I wouldn’t be THAT surprised if Picard appears in the last scene of the episode, just like the Enterprise appeared in the last scene of the finale of season one.

ML31

I was thinking the same thing, to be brutally honest.

Tiger2

“I’m getting an incoming transmission.”

“The hail is from an Admiral Picard sir.”

“It’s the Enterprise-F.”

It won’t happen, but I wouldn’t be too upset if they did it. ;)

ML31

The episode was decent and watchable. A far cry from season one, that’s for darn sure! However, in order for it to work the way it should it still requires the viewer to care about one Michael Burnham. Which I just cannot do. First because the character is was so boring but now because the actress just doesn’t seem up to the task. Maybe she’s not a good actress or maybe she’s just miscast. Whatever it is, the show’s lack of emotional punch can be traced directly to her.

I first thought Sarek and Amanda were speaking through the katra connection. Then I saw that they were actually there?!?!? WTF???? That took me right out of the scene by opening up way too many holes and questions. Far too many to bring up here. Again, if Burnham were a character I cared about such a faux pas could be forgiven as it would provide an emotional punch. But this show doesn’t have that.

Speaking of relationships we don’t care about… Was that critical moment the appropriate time for Stammets and Culber to hash out their issues? The instant that scene started there was already a ticking clock and I thought, “Really? You are going to do this NOW???”

It is pretty darn obvious this show is going to severely miss Captain Pike next season. It’s hard to believe that the show runners are not aware of that. Also, we know Spock is not headed to the future with the rest of the crew. And yes… Sarek’s comment that it was Spock’s wish is a little odd. To be fair, however, it could very well be a matter of perspective. Both Spock and Sarek are under the impression the issue belongs with the other.

DeanH

Yeah, it LOOKS like S3 will be Discovery with Saru as Captain and a crew that will be traveling without the support of Starfleet, to a strange new worlds and boldly going where no one has gone before. As someone said before, it might be a post-Nemesis version of Voyager in the far far future.

khambattafan

The finale of season 1 was quite poor, and Mount/Peck/Notaro are welcome additions to season 2, but other than that, the “vast improvement” of season 2 is vastly overstated. This season veers between muddled and derivative, and Martin-Green has settled in to irritating overacting (probably out of boredom over her ill-conceived protagonist).

ML31

Khambattafan, all you said about season 2 is true. However, it is STILL a “vast improvement” over season one. Both things can be true because season one was so very very bad.

ML31

One more thing… I’m a little confused buy the concept of “two part finale”. Isn’t this season long story arc basically a single 14 part episode? This isn’t the first episode that ended as if there was more of the story to come.

Don’t ask the people making this show to understand things like that.

Michael Hall

Oh, please. DS9 had two-part episodes with the same title, and two-parters with different titles, you want to talk about confusion. Criticism is fine, but this endless picking of nits about everything just comes across as sour grapes.

ML31

Michael, your examples show that you missed the point.